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	<title>Comments on: Full house? (part two)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/</link>
	<description>Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:49:34 +1100</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-6/#comment-6065</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-6065</guid>
		<description>Well, there we are: the DLP have taken two seats. No one picked that. The Greens took 2 seats with more than 4 times their vote (it might be more than 5 times) and the DLP didn&#039;t really campaign, so it is an amazing result. 

Labor do not control the Council. 

Interesting that the Nationals did so badly in the upper house, completely failing in Western Vic, where they put in a lot of resources. 

One lesson for the psephologists is that where minor parties are vying for the 5th seat in these upper house elections, it is too simple to look at who can garner more than half of a quota and predict a win by them. It all boils down to preference flows. Mackerras and others were picking several Green seats, even though the Greens did not at any stage predict this (they predicted one). Even after the voting, we were all in the dark for a period of weeks, even on this blog, and it just goes to show how uncertain this process is for those who are not in the big parties. 

The time delay also means that election night pronouncements on how the minor parties have fared are fraught with danger, and are unlikely to fully reflect the outcome. 

My thanks to those who contributed to this blog, which I have found particularly interesting. Special thanks to Antony Green for his expert analysis as figures permitted.

Now let&#039;s see how our elected representatives perform over the next four years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there we are: the DLP have taken two seats. No one picked that. The Greens took 2 seats with more than 4 times their vote (it might be more than 5 times) and the DLP didn&#8217;t really campaign, so it is an amazing result. </p>
<p>Labor do not control the Council. </p>
<p>Interesting that the Nationals did so badly in the upper house, completely failing in Western Vic, where they put in a lot of resources. </p>
<p>One lesson for the psephologists is that where minor parties are vying for the 5th seat in these upper house elections, it is too simple to look at who can garner more than half of a quota and predict a win by them. It all boils down to preference flows. Mackerras and others were picking several Green seats, even though the Greens did not at any stage predict this (they predicted one). Even after the voting, we were all in the dark for a period of weeks, even on this blog, and it just goes to show how uncertain this process is for those who are not in the big parties. </p>
<p>The time delay also means that election night pronouncements on how the minor parties have fared are fraught with danger, and are unlikely to fully reflect the outcome. </p>
<p>My thanks to those who contributed to this blog, which I have found particularly interesting. Special thanks to Antony Green for his expert analysis as figures permitted.</p>
<p>Now let&#8217;s see how our elected representatives perform over the next four years.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-6/#comment-5971</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5971</guid>
		<description>If they are so exuberantly supportive of environmental issues, I would expect DLP to place the Greens somewhere other than last on their upper house ticket. The fact is the DLP is more interested in opposing gays than it is in creating a just and environmentlaly sustainable world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they are so exuberantly supportive of environmental issues, I would expect DLP to place the Greens somewhere other than last on their upper house ticket. The fact is the DLP is more interested in opposing gays than it is in creating a just and environmentlaly sustainable world.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Curtis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5965</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5965</guid>
		<description>Brian,

I have done some more research on the claim by Lloyd Labor that the DLP was the first political party to promote the environment.  I still cannot say if this claim is true, but I can quote the following:
&#039;The lungs through which Melbourne breathes will be destroyed, and Melbourne will suffocate as these magnificent rural and seaside areas become built-up red brickâ€¦All of the millions spent on freeways do nothing but provide temporary relief to road congestion.  Air pollution, although it has not reached the disease-ridden proportions of some American and Asian cities, is ever on the rise with its threat to the health of individuals and families.&#039; (Hon. Jack Little, The Policy for the Democratic Labor Party for the Victorian Elections April 29, 1967, 10/4/1967)

(In the same speech, Jack Little committed the DLP to a legal maximum class size of 30 pupils.  This may not sound much today, but this is in 1967 when classes of 40 were not unusual.)

I can also quote this:
&#039;The threat of massive oil pollution is real and is provided by the presence of the major oil refineries on the shores of Port Philip Bay and Westernport Bayâ€¦The D.L.P. is strongly of the opinion that when private enterprise is allowed to develop industry, provision for town planning, provision for effluent water treatment plant, planning for air pollution control, analysis of traffic requirements and control of sound, are inescapable parts of the total bill, and must be provided for in the original estimatesâ€¦.Victoria should immediately appoint a Director of Air Pollution Controlâ€¦&#039; (Frank Dowling, We&#039;ll keep the Government Honest, The Policy of the Democratic Labor Party for the Victorian State Elections, May, 1970, 6/5/1970)  (We now know the origin of the Democrats&#039; well-known slogan.)

(In the same speech, Frank Dowling called for the mandatory reporting of child abuse.  How many years did we have to wait for that to happen?)

None of this shows that the DLP was the first party to promote the environment, but it does show that the environment was an issue of concern to the DLP forty years ago.  I will now leave it to Lloyd Labor to prove his case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>I have done some more research on the claim by Lloyd Labor that the DLP was the first political party to promote the environment.  I still cannot say if this claim is true, but I can quote the following:<br />
&#8216;The lungs through which Melbourne breathes will be destroyed, and Melbourne will suffocate as these magnificent rural and seaside areas become built-up red brickâ€¦All of the millions spent on freeways do nothing but provide temporary relief to road congestion.  Air pollution, although it has not reached the disease-ridden proportions of some American and Asian cities, is ever on the rise with its threat to the health of individuals and families.&#8217; (Hon. Jack Little, The Policy for the Democratic Labor Party for the Victorian Elections April 29, 1967, 10/4/1967)</p>
<p>(In the same speech, Jack Little committed the DLP to a legal maximum class size of 30 pupils.  This may not sound much today, but this is in 1967 when classes of 40 were not unusual.)</p>
<p>I can also quote this:<br />
&#8216;The threat of massive oil pollution is real and is provided by the presence of the major oil refineries on the shores of Port Philip Bay and Westernport Bayâ€¦The D.L.P. is strongly of the opinion that when private enterprise is allowed to develop industry, provision for town planning, provision for effluent water treatment plant, planning for air pollution control, analysis of traffic requirements and control of sound, are inescapable parts of the total bill, and must be provided for in the original estimatesâ€¦.Victoria should immediately appoint a Director of Air Pollution Controlâ€¦&#8217; (Frank Dowling, We&#8217;ll keep the Government Honest, The Policy of the Democratic Labor Party for the Victorian State Elections, May, 1970, 6/5/1970)  (We now know the origin of the Democrats&#8217; well-known slogan.)</p>
<p>(In the same speech, Frank Dowling called for the mandatory reporting of child abuse.  How many years did we have to wait for that to happen?)</p>
<p>None of this shows that the DLP was the first party to promote the environment, but it does show that the environment was an issue of concern to the DLP forty years ago.  I will now leave it to Lloyd Labor to prove his case.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5950</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 01:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5950</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Chris. Lloyd may have had something further in mind, but reflecting on the DLP principles set out above: whilst few would criticise these principles, August 1974 came after years of the environment being a major issue. This was 2 years after the flooding of Lake Pedder, which had caused the United Tasmania Group (the world&#039;s first Green party) to be formed, it was 2 years after the election of the Whitlam government, on which Moss Cass as Minister for the Environment had been working tirelessly and prominently for the environment, and it was also some time on from Dick Hamer becoming premier of Victoria, his government featuring protection of the environment and expansion of the national parks system. But if the DLP are successful in Western Victoria it would be good if they adhered to these principles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Chris. Lloyd may have had something further in mind, but reflecting on the DLP principles set out above: whilst few would criticise these principles, August 1974 came after years of the environment being a major issue. This was 2 years after the flooding of Lake Pedder, which had caused the United Tasmania Group (the world&#8217;s first Green party) to be formed, it was 2 years after the election of the Whitlam government, on which Moss Cass as Minister for the Environment had been working tirelessly and prominently for the environment, and it was also some time on from Dick Hamer becoming premier of Victoria, his government featuring protection of the environment and expansion of the national parks system. But if the DLP are successful in Western Victoria it would be good if they adhered to these principles.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Curtis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5938</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5938</guid>
		<description>Brian,

I cannot confirm that the DLP was the first party to promote the environment, but I can give evidence that it did so early in the piece.

In August 1974, the Central Executive adopted a new statement of principles.  I proposed the environmental one, which read:
&#039;The protection and conservation of the natural environment and the planned use of natural resources in recognition of the close relationship between man and nature and the finite nature of the earth&#039;s resources.&#039;

In the statement of principles at the head of the DLP&#039;s environment policy was the following:
&#039;The Democratic Labor Party believes that the world environmental crisis arises from:
o	The affluent society&#039;s abandonment of the virtue of frugality;
o	The continuance of too much of the attitude of â€œtaming the wildernessâ€ coupled with insufficient appreciation of the value of unique flora and fauna; and
o	A failure to recognise the interdependence of men and nature.&#039; (The DLP Looks Ahead, 1/5/1977)

The policy went on to call for such things as 5 per cent of the country to be national parks, taxes on environmentally damaging products, research into solar energy, fusion energy, etc.  No doubt, it would be found wanting 30 years after it was written, but it was a serious attempt to face environmental degradation at the time.

The Victorian DLP records (and thus pre-Split ALP records) are available at the State Library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>I cannot confirm that the DLP was the first party to promote the environment, but I can give evidence that it did so early in the piece.</p>
<p>In August 1974, the Central Executive adopted a new statement of principles.  I proposed the environmental one, which read:<br />
&#8216;The protection and conservation of the natural environment and the planned use of natural resources in recognition of the close relationship between man and nature and the finite nature of the earth&#8217;s resources.&#8217;</p>
<p>In the statement of principles at the head of the DLP&#8217;s environment policy was the following:<br />
&#8216;The Democratic Labor Party believes that the world environmental crisis arises from:<br />
o	The affluent society&#8217;s abandonment of the virtue of frugality;<br />
o	The continuance of too much of the attitude of â€œtaming the wildernessâ€ coupled with insufficient appreciation of the value of unique flora and fauna; and<br />
o	A failure to recognise the interdependence of men and nature.&#8217; (The DLP Looks Ahead, 1/5/1977)</p>
<p>The policy went on to call for such things as 5 per cent of the country to be national parks, taxes on environmentally damaging products, research into solar energy, fusion energy, etc.  No doubt, it would be found wanting 30 years after it was written, but it was a serious attempt to face environmental degradation at the time.</p>
<p>The Victorian DLP records (and thus pre-Split ALP records) are available at the State Library.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5919</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 06:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5919</guid>
		<description>Dear Lloyd Labor, interested that you say DLP was first to move on the environment. I have not heard this claim before. What historical event or stand does this refer to? All the best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Lloyd Labor, interested that you say DLP was first to move on the environment. I have not heard this claim before. What historical event or stand does this refer to? All the best.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Labor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5911</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Labor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5911</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t know that the DLP will actually get up in Western Vic yet do we?

If they do, then at last we will be able to get reality instead of myth about what they stand for, and that will be revealed in who they team up with on different matters, eg. no doubt with ALP on industrial relations, Greens on some environmental matters, bargain with Libs on some minor issues etc.

For those with memory or who read history instead of repeating myth:

we have to admit the DLP were the first to push for an end of the White Australia policy and they had to beat the conservatives about the ears to get their way, while unfortunately ALP was last to respond;

and they were first to move on environment and equal pay for equal work. 

We will have to wait and see if they win a spot, and then if they choose to be as creative as they were, or whether they oblige the myth makers and mold themselves to the stereo type, which would be convenient but a loss to Vic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t know that the DLP will actually get up in Western Vic yet do we?</p>
<p>If they do, then at last we will be able to get reality instead of myth about what they stand for, and that will be revealed in who they team up with on different matters, eg. no doubt with ALP on industrial relations, Greens on some environmental matters, bargain with Libs on some minor issues etc.</p>
<p>For those with memory or who read history instead of repeating myth:</p>
<p>we have to admit the DLP were the first to push for an end of the White Australia policy and they had to beat the conservatives about the ears to get their way, while unfortunately ALP was last to respond;</p>
<p>and they were first to move on environment and equal pay for equal work. </p>
<p>We will have to wait and see if they win a spot, and then if they choose to be as creative as they were, or whether they oblige the myth makers and mold themselves to the stereo type, which would be convenient but a loss to Vic.</p>
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		<title>By: Dinesh Mathew</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5906</link>
		<dc:creator>Dinesh Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5906</guid>
		<description>Melbcity, what ransom? Labor/Liberal combine together 80% of the time.  That is rubbish Labor politikspeak.  

The scary thing for Labor is, when the swing happens against Labor, there are about 3-4 seats that might swing the Greens way.  These seats have never been a potential loss for the ALP.  now it&#039;s a slow burn.  It also distracts the ALP in having to attack another party than the Libs.  

Now for the NSW election where there probably will be a swing away from the ALP.  

By the way, Adam, it looks like the 10% ceiling you predicted for the Greens has been already broken by counting of absentees/postals and pre-polls. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melbcity, what ransom? Labor/Liberal combine together 80% of the time.  That is rubbish Labor politikspeak.  </p>
<p>The scary thing for Labor is, when the swing happens against Labor, there are about 3-4 seats that might swing the Greens way.  These seats have never been a potential loss for the ALP.  now it&#8217;s a slow burn.  It also distracts the ALP in having to attack another party than the Libs.  </p>
<p>Now for the NSW election where there probably will be a swing away from the ALP.  </p>
<p>By the way, Adam, it looks like the 10% ceiling you predicted for the Greens has been already broken by counting of absentees/postals and pre-polls. <img src='http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/wp-content/mu-plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-smile.png' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Melbcity</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5902</link>
		<dc:creator>Melbcity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5902</guid>
		<description>The more perties the more options to negotaige agreement.  Best noty top be hand to ransom by teh Greens.  No one party holds the balance.  This is good.  lthough I would expect that the DLP will causus with the NP and Liberal Party</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more perties the more options to negotaige agreement.  Best noty top be hand to ransom by teh Greens.  No one party holds the balance.  This is good.  lthough I would expect that the DLP will causus with the NP and Liberal Party</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2006/12/01/full-house-part-two/comment-page-5/#comment-5898</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/432#comment-5898</guid>
		<description>On 6.12 Ray commented:
&quot;If West VIC goes to the DLP, assuming ET gets up in SMET, then if the ALP want to legislate to the right, they have the DLP option. If they want to legislate to the left, they team with the Greens. Sounds like a smart choice, and much better than being a slave of the left with the Greens holding the BoP&quot;

This is nonsense. If the Greens and/or DLP have the BoP, then they must share it with the Libs and Nats too. So if the ALP want to legislate to the right, there are plenty of options on that side of the chamber. People who claim a Bracks govt will be slave to the Greens if the greens get the BoP dishonestly ignore the fact that 21 votes are required to pass legislation. if the greens dare to insist on inappropriate amendments to legislation then the ALP can always get their bills passed with Nat or Lib support, because they too hold the BoP. The major parties like to scare everyone with claims that minor parties will take control of the state, when in fact power will always remain with the major parties because 2 major parties can always pass legislation without any input from the minors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On 6.12 Ray commented:<br />
&#8220;If West VIC goes to the DLP, assuming ET gets up in SMET, then if the ALP want to legislate to the right, they have the DLP option. If they want to legislate to the left, they team with the Greens. Sounds like a smart choice, and much better than being a slave of the left with the Greens holding the BoP&#8221;</p>
<p>This is nonsense. If the Greens and/or DLP have the BoP, then they must share it with the Libs and Nats too. So if the ALP want to legislate to the right, there are plenty of options on that side of the chamber. People who claim a Bracks govt will be slave to the Greens if the greens get the BoP dishonestly ignore the fact that 21 votes are required to pass legislation. if the greens dare to insist on inappropriate amendments to legislation then the ALP can always get their bills passed with Nat or Lib support, because they too hold the BoP. The major parties like to scare everyone with claims that minor parties will take control of the state, when in fact power will always remain with the major parties because 2 major parties can always pass legislation without any input from the minors.</p>
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