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	<title>Comments on: ACNielsen: 58-42</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/</link>
	<description>Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth</description>
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		<title>By: William Bowe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20223</link>
		<dc:creator>William Bowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20223</guid>
		<description>This thread is taking a vacation. The Australian issue has probably played out anyway (until next Tuesday at least), but I&#039;d be happier if we laid off it for a bit, for what my opinion is worth to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This thread is taking a vacation. The Australian issue has probably played out anyway (until next Tuesday at least), but I&#8217;d be happier if we laid off it for a bit, for what my opinion is worth to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Howson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20221</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Howson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20221</guid>
		<description>&gt;Donâ€™t agree. Costello knew he didnâ€™t have the public and hence party &gt;support to give him a hope in Hades of winning, and just accepted that &gt;fact. If he hadnâ€™t, and had challenged, what sort of position would he be &gt;in now? Much worse. It all boils down to his lack of any substantial public &gt;popularity, which means he will never be PM in his own right.

Was Keating that popular with the general public when he went after Hawke? His main popularity was with the NSW Right, the press gallery, and himself, but not necessarily in that order. Unlike Costello, Keating knew that he had a better chance of seeing of Hewson than Hawke. Now, allegedly Howard told Costello that he could dispense with Beazley easily, but Costello countered saying that he doubted that the ALP would retain Beazley as the leader for the election. In other words, Costello knew what was going to happen, but didn&#039;t act on it. Costello should&#039;ve done what Keating did, resign to the back bench, then challenge Howard again now.

I say this as a person that thinks Howard has stayed on too long, I don&#039;t think voters like Governments who hang around for over 10 years, and certainly not a government with the same leader. I don&#039;t think the ALPs policies are all that different to what they would&#039;ve been under Beazley, I think what the polls are showing is that people simply think the ALP will be competent under Rudd, but the main problem is the Government has been around too long without renewel at the top end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Donâ€™t agree. Costello knew he didnâ€™t have the public and hence party &gt;support to give him a hope in Hades of winning, and just accepted that &gt;fact. If he hadnâ€™t, and had challenged, what sort of position would he be &gt;in now? Much worse. It all boils down to his lack of any substantial public &gt;popularity, which means he will never be PM in his own right.</p>
<p>Was Keating that popular with the general public when he went after Hawke? His main popularity was with the NSW Right, the press gallery, and himself, but not necessarily in that order. Unlike Costello, Keating knew that he had a better chance of seeing of Hewson than Hawke. Now, allegedly Howard told Costello that he could dispense with Beazley easily, but Costello countered saying that he doubted that the ALP would retain Beazley as the leader for the election. In other words, Costello knew what was going to happen, but didn&#8217;t act on it. Costello should&#8217;ve done what Keating did, resign to the back bench, then challenge Howard again now.</p>
<p>I say this as a person that thinks Howard has stayed on too long, I don&#8217;t think voters like Governments who hang around for over 10 years, and certainly not a government with the same leader. I don&#8217;t think the ALPs policies are all that different to what they would&#8217;ve been under Beazley, I think what the polls are showing is that people simply think the ALP will be competent under Rudd, but the main problem is the Government has been around too long without renewel at the top end.</p>
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		<title>By: The Happy Revolutionary</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20220</link>
		<dc:creator>The Happy Revolutionary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20220</guid>
		<description>Sorry, that last comment was for Amber, not Arbie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, that last comment was for Amber, not Arbie.</p>
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		<title>By: The Happy Revolutionary</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20219</link>
		<dc:creator>The Happy Revolutionary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20219</guid>
		<description>Arbie, I&#039;m not sure that Howard&#039;s hanging on to the leadership is entirely ego. I think we tend to speculate too much on individual pollies&#039; psychology. I suspect Howard stayed on for lack of anything better. He was often a laughing stock prior to 1996, but since then, he&#039;s managed to win several elections. He even managed to increase the Coalition&#039;s majority in 2004, by which time his jingoistic &#039;statesmanship&#039; was well-known, and his government was laden with plenty of pretty ugly baggage.

I wouldn&#039;t assume he&#039;s worried about his &#039;legacy&#039; - in his mind, he&#039;s probably already acheived everything he wanted, particularly with his ideologically-charged legislation, passed with Senate control (VSU, Telstra, anti-terror laws, and IR, among others).

As for his actual legacy, I would argue it&#039;s far from inconsequential. Australia is a different country for having been governed by Howard, and not, I believe, for the better. My perspective is partisan, but still - Other than &#039;managing&#039; the economy (and managing it well, for the already-wealthy), and tightening gun laws, I stuggle to think of any great contribution that Howard has made. 

He&#039;s shown himself to be an astute observer of public opinion, and opportunistic at every turn. Given his ideological preoccupations, and the fact that he was able to successfully ride a wave of anti-Keating, anti-PC, Hansonite hysteria, he was a suitable leader of sorts. Nonetheless, the Australia that he leaves behind will be one that is diminished in every respect, other than its imported plasma televisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arbie, I&#8217;m not sure that Howard&#8217;s hanging on to the leadership is entirely ego. I think we tend to speculate too much on individual pollies&#8217; psychology. I suspect Howard stayed on for lack of anything better. He was often a laughing stock prior to 1996, but since then, he&#8217;s managed to win several elections. He even managed to increase the Coalition&#8217;s majority in 2004, by which time his jingoistic &#8217;statesmanship&#8217; was well-known, and his government was laden with plenty of pretty ugly baggage.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t assume he&#8217;s worried about his &#8216;legacy&#8217; &#8211; in his mind, he&#8217;s probably already acheived everything he wanted, particularly with his ideologically-charged legislation, passed with Senate control (VSU, Telstra, anti-terror laws, and IR, among others).</p>
<p>As for his actual legacy, I would argue it&#8217;s far from inconsequential. Australia is a different country for having been governed by Howard, and not, I believe, for the better. My perspective is partisan, but still &#8211; Other than &#8216;managing&#8217; the economy (and managing it well, for the already-wealthy), and tightening gun laws, I stuggle to think of any great contribution that Howard has made. </p>
<p>He&#8217;s shown himself to be an astute observer of public opinion, and opportunistic at every turn. Given his ideological preoccupations, and the fact that he was able to successfully ride a wave of anti-Keating, anti-PC, Hansonite hysteria, he was a suitable leader of sorts. Nonetheless, the Australia that he leaves behind will be one that is diminished in every respect, other than its imported plasma televisions.</p>
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		<title>By: Just Me</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20218</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20218</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think STROP is right, Costello was too gutless to challenge Howard last year....
Simon Howson&lt;/i&gt;

Don&#039;t agree. Costello knew he didn&#039;t have the public and hence party support to give him a hope in Hades of winning, and just accepted that fact. If he hadn&#039;t, and had challenged, what sort of position would he be in now? Much worse. It all boils down to his lack of any substantial public popularity, which means he will never be PM in his own right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think STROP is right, Costello was too gutless to challenge Howard last year&#8230;.<br />
Simon Howson</i></p>
<p>Don&#8217;t agree. Costello knew he didn&#8217;t have the public and hence party support to give him a hope in Hades of winning, and just accepted that fact. If he hadn&#8217;t, and had challenged, what sort of position would he be in now? Much worse. It all boils down to his lack of any substantial public popularity, which means he will never be PM in his own right.</p>
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		<title>By: Amber Dekstris</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20217</link>
		<dc:creator>Amber Dekstris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20217</guid>
		<description>By chalice I meant Opposition Leader not PM. Howard is man enough to lead to defeat, a quality Costello lacks. The machine will decide the battle is lost, allow Howard to lose, allow Costello to lead while in Opposition and allow Turnbull to have a tilt. Handing over to Costello will give the Libs the &quot;makeover&quot; that won&#039;t wash this close to an election. 

Howard doesn&#039;t have many redeeming qualities but if he thinks a Costello defeat is a bigger disaster then a Howard defeat, Howard will take the ignominy for the sake of the party. He does believe some of the things he says.

Howard should&#039;ve handed over last year -- he would&#039;ve ridden off into the sunset a true Liberal hero. His ego got in the way but he is prepared to pay the price.

Libs must regain power as soon as humanly possible so as to minimise the winding back by Labor of WorkChoices. This winding back will take time so Libs can afford to lose govt if they can regain it quickly and set in stone the new WC regime. 

The question then becomes, when Libs do get back in, will the govt be dominated by people who care as much about WC as Howard did?

No it won&#039;t and thus is writ the tragedy of JW Howard, the man with the tenacity to simply not go away, to become PM by default, to take advantage of opportunity and advice, to position himself as potentially a modern party hero, but ultimately to leave a legacy of ... nothing of any consequence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By chalice I meant Opposition Leader not PM. Howard is man enough to lead to defeat, a quality Costello lacks. The machine will decide the battle is lost, allow Howard to lose, allow Costello to lead while in Opposition and allow Turnbull to have a tilt. Handing over to Costello will give the Libs the &#8220;makeover&#8221; that won&#8217;t wash this close to an election. </p>
<p>Howard doesn&#8217;t have many redeeming qualities but if he thinks a Costello defeat is a bigger disaster then a Howard defeat, Howard will take the ignominy for the sake of the party. He does believe some of the things he says.</p>
<p>Howard should&#8217;ve handed over last year &#8212; he would&#8217;ve ridden off into the sunset a true Liberal hero. His ego got in the way but he is prepared to pay the price.</p>
<p>Libs must regain power as soon as humanly possible so as to minimise the winding back by Labor of WorkChoices. This winding back will take time so Libs can afford to lose govt if they can regain it quickly and set in stone the new WC regime. </p>
<p>The question then becomes, when Libs do get back in, will the govt be dominated by people who care as much about WC as Howard did?</p>
<p>No it won&#8217;t and thus is writ the tragedy of JW Howard, the man with the tenacity to simply not go away, to become PM by default, to take advantage of opportunity and advice, to position himself as potentially a modern party hero, but ultimately to leave a legacy of &#8230; nothing of any consequence.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20215</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20215</guid>
		<description>STROP if there is a really big swing in Qld (and as always I say &quot;if&quot;), then Ryan will go. Michael Johnson is decidedly on the nose and Ryan is a classic &quot;doctors wives&quot; seat where issues like climate change will hurt the Libs. Don&#039;t forget that Ryan was the only seat in Qld to vote for the republic in 1999.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>STROP if there is a really big swing in Qld (and as always I say &#8220;if&#8221;), then Ryan will go. Michael Johnson is decidedly on the nose and Ryan is a classic &#8220;doctors wives&#8221; seat where issues like climate change will hurt the Libs. Don&#8217;t forget that Ryan was the only seat in Qld to vote for the republic in 1999.</p>
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		<title>By: STROP</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20214</link>
		<dc:creator>STROP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20214</guid>
		<description>Would Costello want &#039;I lead the Coalition to a loss akin to 1983&#039; on his CV; I dont think so, but politics is a strange animal to that will not be tamed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would Costello want &#8216;I lead the Coalition to a loss akin to 1983&#8242; on his CV; I dont think so, but politics is a strange animal to that will not be tamed.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Howson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20213</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Howson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20213</guid>
		<description>I think STROP is right, Costello was too gutless to challenge Howard last year, and he would be too gutless to be opposition leader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think STROP is right, Costello was too gutless to challenge Howard last year, and he would be too gutless to be opposition leader.</p>
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		<title>By: STROP</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2007/07/16/acnielsen-58-42/comment-page-4/#comment-20210</link>
		<dc:creator>STROP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/509#comment-20210</guid>
		<description>Amber Dekstris Says: 

July 16th, 2007 at 11:12 pm 
Strop, Costello will accept the poisoned chalice and Turnbull will win his own tilt at a time of his choosing. Costello will lack the patience to do it all again and will accept some offers from the industry.

I hope Costello accepts the chalice as you put it Amber-it would be read as &#039;saving face&#039; but splatter egg all over the Liberal Party. I hope your right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amber Dekstris Says: </p>
<p>July 16th, 2007 at 11:12 pm<br />
Strop, Costello will accept the poisoned chalice and Turnbull will win his own tilt at a time of his choosing. Costello will lack the patience to do it all again and will accept some offers from the industry.</p>
<p>I hope Costello accepts the chalice as you put it Amber-it would be read as &#8217;saving face&#8217; but splatter egg all over the Liberal Party. I hope your right.</p>
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