If you’re a Crikey subscriber or are willing to take out a two-week trial, you can read my piece from yesterday on enrolment numbers. If not, Simon Jackman’s analysis at The Bullring is at least as good. More reading on this subject from Jackman and Brent and Antony Green. And remember: new enrolments must be lodged by no later than 8pm this evening.
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145 Comments
William, what if you could just rock up and enroll on the day…would this be possible?
I suspect the coalition is going to cop it no matter what happens.
If numbers are down, the coalitions change to closing of rolls will be blamed.
If numbers are expected those from the left will be saying the sneeky trick hadn’t worked.
I think that enrolment is like homework, you leave it to the last minute but most people get it in on time.
I’m sure there’s a very good reason that can’t happen Mark, but I can’t tell you what it is off hand.
I imagine enrolling people at polling places would be extremely expensive.
How many AEC employees would be needed to cover each polling booth in every electorate all day? How do they confirm your enrolment within 5 minutes?
Surely it would be cheaper to follow people up, as discussed by Antony in the above-mentioned article, than try to enrol them on Election Day.
i must say, whenever i’ve moved house, the AEC has been very quick to send me a new form to fill in. i’ve often wondered how they knew i’d moved, but now i know…
I think the main reason enrollment is carried out prior to polling is to ensure the integrity of the rolls: to prevent fraudulent enrolments, multiple voting, attempts to disrupt or rig the outcome of polls…taking all the fun out of things in general…
The obvious solution to this and many other problems is a national ID card. Why anyone opposes this I cannot understand. Labor fought and won an election on it in 1987, but now have got cold feet, which is a pity.
I’m starting to think you are a crypto-stalinist, Adam…:) I suspect there are more liberty-friendly ways of keeping an electoral roll up to scratch.
How is an ID card an infringement of liberty?
There seems to be less people whingeing about being forced to vote this election. Maybe they feel they can do something with it this time.
In other countries such as New Zealand and Canada, you can rock up and vote without being on the roll. But you must fill in a declaration vote and provide all the required documentation which will be checked after polling day and before your ballot is removed from the declaration envelope and counted.
I’ve always argued the new points scheme used to get on the roll should be administered in this way. If your application fell short in some way, you could be provisionally enroled, but you must bring the required documentation to have your enrolment confirmed on polling day. There are people this week who will not be able to get on the roll because they rock-up at AEC offices without the correct documentation. Any of these people could be provisionally enroled without putting polling day at risk.
What if I don’t want an ID card?
Then you don’t get to vote, get a driver’s license, get a passport, get an air ticket. It’s up to you.
I’d love a unique number. The local library could use it and I give them the details I want to, the local soccer club could use it.
Thos people who don’t want to give it get a different number issued by the library but it would save me heeps of time if I could just use a single memorised number whenever someone wanted to look me up.
I’d also get my basic details on a swipe card, save filling in name address phone etc on every form I ever see.
In itself, it’s not. But the ability to link all kinds of data with identity creates both the means and the opportunity to abuse individual privacy – a threat to civil liberties. I am not confident that government agencies – maybe of an authoritarian persuasion – could resist using individual information with out much regard for individual privacy. The state already has extensive powers of arrest and detention. A matching data-collection capacity would be scary.
Only to those who are guilty of something.
I think Antony’s procedure for provisional enrolment is a good idea – eligible persons should not be denied the vote simply for clerical reasons.
Adam, you see, you are a stalinist…>:)
Adam, call me old-fashioned, but if there is a zealot or an ideologue or a minister called Kevin Andrews out there with the chance to abuse their powers, they will…..
Not at all. I recognise the realities of a highly complex urban society in which a significant number of people want to do anti-social things like cheat the social security system, steal other people’s identities, defraud other people and plan terrorist acts. An ID card makes all those things harder, while making many other things, like opening a bank account, much easier for citizens. Those were the arguments that Labor successfully used at the 1987 election for the Australia Card, which we would have had for 20 years by now and would totally take for granted if the Libs hadn’t opposed it in the Senate out of pure obstructionism. Many other democracies have ID cards and have not experienced “stalinism” as a result.
Of course we also need a bill of rights to go with it, as Labor also tried to get up but was frustrated by the Libs.
If you want to know about the mess you can get in to with enrolment procedures, read the notes on the following by-election.
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/resources/nswelectionsanalysis/1917/Petersham_1.htm
I’m fairly ambivalent on the subject, but I think your first answer clearly indicates the infringement to liberty. It’s whether that infringement to liberty is a worthwhile tradeoff. I probably lean your way on it Adam, but are far from convinced.
am… am… not ‘are’
I’m very comfortable about infringing people’s liberty to be guilty of things, if that’s what your referring to.
and clearly blindoptimist is somewhat of a misnomer….
It’s all very easy to say that, Adam, but government-defined guilt doesn’t always sit easily with me.
Adam, the practical things you mention make good sense. But what do you do about over-vigilant or corrupt officials? (I think of the Special Branches of state police forces). What do you do about cynical and self-satisfied Attorneys-General? I am not full of confidence in the willingness of legislatures to protect citizens against a coercive or arbitrary Executive.
lol wayaway…. i’m an optimist about some things…and blind about others…
Civics 101: In a democracy, bad laws can be changed by democractic means. You can’t oppose things on the grounds that they might be abused. Any law can be abused. You could oppose Australia having an army on the grounds that they might stage a coup. The trick is to have appropriate safegaurds. I favour an ID card plus a bill of rights to prevent its abuse, plus an independent judiciary, plus an ombudsman etc etc. These things are not beyond the ingenuity of civilised societies to solve.
Four EU countries have compulsory ID card schemes (Germany, Belgium, Greece, and Spain). Spanish authorities plan to replace their existing identity cards with electronic versions. Eight EU countries have voluntary ID card schemes (Austria, Finland, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal & Sweden) and three (UK, Denmark, Ireland) do not have a card, though Denmark has a national ID number scheme. Some countries with voluntary card schemes (Sweden and Italy) make it compulsory to register on a ‘population database’.
Are these countries any less liberal or democratic than Australia?
I understand the concern about the Australia Card. I would not like the Liberal Party to be in charge of a system that enforces its use. Can you imagine what laws the Exclusive Brethren would enforce on us?
In the face of such fatuity, what can I say? (Other than: thanks for reminding me why I left the left.)
Some more, some less – hard to answer a question about FIFTEEN countries on the matter in any reasonable space here.
Your point is well made, however, and I am aware of that side of the argument – I just don’t hear freedom talked about much anymore and think it needs to be more fully considered in any debate.
Indeed, whenever it is raised, the response usually insinuates criminality on the part of the raiser and I find that an unsubtle argument. As I stated, I probably lean your way on this matter, Adam, but the devil is in the detail.
I wonder how many extra people will be enrolled by 8PM tonight?
Will the AEC tell us?
Oh, and thanks for the Civics 101 crack, too
Well, you might not oppose things on the ground that they might be abused, but you can withhold consent until you’re sure abuse can be prevented. I am not confident – call me a worrier. But officials will abuse their powers unless they are checked. It is inevitable. (Think of the Rau and Solon cases and the Haneef case and the generally aggressive way immigration law is administered.) Like I say, call me old-fashioned…
who is fatuous? moi?
Well now, good argument there. The Rau case was entirely about mistaken identity. If she’d had an ID card, the problem wouldn’t have arisen. An ID card actually protects the citizen against misuse of authority or mistaken use of it. “No officer, I am not Tony Mokbel, and here’s my ID card to prove it.”
Perhaps I too have absconded from the left….I can’t really tell anymore.
Or a passport, in Tony’s case…
No, Chris B is fatuous. You’re merely mistaken.
Yes. It was about identity. But whether she was or was not obliged to carry ID, she had none. Her fate would have been the same: she would have been detained without reason or charge or inquiry.
Since the death of socialism, which was the left’s positive agenda for a century, the term “left” just means “resistant to change” and “in the grip of nostalgia.” You’re well off out of it.
Not if she’d had an ID card. No matter how demented she was, her identity could have been established at once.
That’s what I am mean: the arbitrary use of state power occurs. Give the state more unchecked power and it will occur more frequently…
Thanks for clarifying my state of mind for me, Adam. I though I was merely old-fashioned: now I am wrong as well…..:)
If she had not had ID, but was required to, her treatment could conceivably have been even worse….
There’s nothing wrong with being wrong. I’m frequently wrong. It’s persisting in error when the truth has been pointed out to you that is culpable.
If only she’d been criminal rather than ‘demented’ – she could have all the ID she wanted….
How does an ID card “give the state more unchecked power”?
Yes, I have to admit I am unwilling to change just because you have a good argument. But then, I’m not sure we disagree. You have more faith in institutional mechanisms than me. I try to think of things in terms of rights and their infringement. It helps me to a point…
By making the state the arbiter of a wide range of freely entered into relationships…
Rubbish. An ID card, with appropriate safeguards as I said, actually empowers the citizen. Your argument is based on the premise that we live in Nazi Germany, a society where there are no restraints on the state. That’s nonsense.
Creating ID cards woud not of itself “give the state more unchecked power”. But the it would have both the means and opportunity to collect data and link it with identity. Unless this capacity was limited, we would end up living in a society where our privacy would be like a shadow: visible, but intangible. I am worried by that….maybe it is my introverted self that is resisting intrusion…
That assumes that “the state” is a conscious entity with sinister motives. You’ve been reading too many science fiction novels. “The state” is just a bunch of overworked drudges in Canberra, most of whom vote Labor and are interested in nothing more than going home at 5pm.
Invoking Nazism is never a strong argument. Appropriate safeguards is a buzzphrase.
Well, we 3 are having fun at least…
Maybe I am over-sensitive on this. But personal freedom and democracy are indivisble in my mind. We enjoy a range of freedoms to do things. But I like the idea that we are free from some things too, especially from the arbitrary use of power.
20% are overworked, the other 80% watch them go at it
55
Adam Says:
October 17th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
That assumes that “the state†is a conscious entity with sinister motives. You’ve been reading too many science fiction novels. “The state†is just a bunch of overworked drudges in Canberra.
…
and some of them are named Kevin Andrews or Phillip Ruddock…state power is exercised by individuals, who are all-too-human…
No it’s not. “Appropriate safeguards” is a bill of rights, a privacy act, an independent judiciary, an ombudsman, a vigilant civil society, a free press, free trade unions, Slater and Gordon – Australia bristles with appropriate safeguards, although we could certainly have more.
and bloggers..we are leading the fight….
I think both blindoptimist and myself have expressed, at the very least, sympathy for your views, Adam – I’m glad everything’s so black and white in your world. What colour is the sky?
“state power is exercised by individuals, who are all-too-human…” I agree. That’s why we need institutional safeguards against the mistaken or ill-judged use of authority. An ID is one such safeguard. No-one can assuse me of being you, because I have a card saying I’m me.
How many of the things you list (which you concede are inadequate) do you consider we have in this country?
A delicate shade of milky blue, flushed with orange towards the west… is this a trick question?
No, no, always interested in the experiences of others
Most of them. I’ve already said that I think the introduction of an ID card should be coupled with a bill of rights. That’s what the Hawke government tried to do, and it’s a great pity they failed.
And quite poetic on your part…
(What an abuse of William’s bandwidth this is.)
Ok Adam. We seem to have got to the point: …”Appropriate safeguards†is a bill of rights, a privacy act, an independent judiciary, an ombudsman, a vigilant civil society, a free press, free trade unions, Slater and Gordon.
This is well and good. What it means is that the use of ID and linked data has to be limited. You have to specifiy the instances in which compulsory ID can be used or demanded. This has to be defined and supervised….hmmmm…In whose interest will the supervision be conducted?
Yes I’m a poetic rightwing Stalinist Labor hack, and I’m going out to dinner. Later.
Good speakng with you Adam…
64
Adam Says:
October 17th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
An ID is one such safeguard. No-one can assuse me of being you, because I have a card saying I’m me….
Which is just as well for you. You wouldn’t want to be in my shoes for quids.
***EDIT*** speaking…
devil… in… detail…
Good speaking with you too, blindoptimist…
William – love your site sir…
he is a champion of his causes, for sure…
you too wayaway….see you again…:)
ID cards are troublesome simply because the govt. (and practically anyone) has no right to know anything about your life, tied to a number.
Governments are there to protect citizens and their privacy, not to infringe upon it.
Hell, if I had my way, they wouldn’t have your number for welfare purposes (because there wouldn’t be welfare) or taxation purposes (because there wouldn’t be an income tax).
A drivers licence is enough, surely?
#
7
Adam Says:
October 17th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
The obvious solution to this and many other problems is a national ID card. Why anyone opposes this I cannot understand. Labor fought and won an election on it in 1987, but now have got cold feet, which is a pity.
Adam you are really starting to scare me.
Adam, there have been several cases raised recently in Victoria of people who have renewed their driver’s license for 10 years but for whatever reason the VicRoads computer’s have cancelled the 10 year license and then issued a 3 year one. I will not speculate on why a VicRoads employee might want to put a refund for a more expensive 10 year license through their system and then issue a 3 year one and bin the paperwork.
The people who have had this happen to them have only found out when they were pulled up by the Police and told their license has expired.
Even though they have a license card with them which says they are valid for 10 years, the Police have made them park their cars and make alternative arrangements.
People have then had to go through the process of signing statutory declarations etc. before VicRoads will issue them with a new 10 year license. A lot of pain and bother for someone who can’t drive down to the local VicRoads.
In short, I do not have enough faith that the powers that be can administer a National ID card correctly so will never agree to one.
No matter what safeguards are put in place they are only as strong as the most malevolent employee let’s them be.
A question for you, would you agree to be micro-chipped, so you don’t have to worry about losing your ID card or having it stolen?
Ha I made a squillion for Croll’s Monitoring Australia when Nick Bolkus decided he wanted a transcript of every mention of the Australia Card. He did not trust the animals.
We just kept sending the transcripts until questions were asked in the Senate.
Dear Richard Croll (RIP) took me out for dinner.
Thanks Nick.
Adam (various) – the basic concern about an ID card is that it creates a centralised database of personal information that is linked to identity. Granted there are numerous organisations who already know an awful lot about us, but these databases are diffuse. The problem with creating a single store of information is not so much that it might “lead” to abuse, but that it’s very existence would encourage the powers that be to abuse it. Power is abused when people have the opportunity to do so.
Let me give you a hypothetical – should, say, someone’s sexuality be included in this wonder-card of yours? If not, why not? Why is that any more or less use than someone’s birthdate? Just what type of info should be included? How much information does the government need to have about private citizens, and who sets that level? I’m guessing it would be the government, who would no doubt feel that the more data the better.
Well, I’m glad they dropped the idea of the card. I’ve heard all the arguments and I’m not convinced we need it. There is absolutely no proof it will solve any of the problems they think it will and won’t create other problems. However being a mere mortal I know my opinion will mean very little.
Gotta say I agree with the no vote, and particularly if it was an electronically based form. Just look at how that kid was able to hack the much vaunted anti-porno protection web stuff.
Bronwyn Bishop, strangely, has a compelling ‘test’ for these schemes.
Basically – ‘Would it have helped the Nazi’s?’
Imagine if a national identity scheme includes aspects about you that later, under some less benevolent version of Australia, allows you to be systematically persecuted with ease.
Those of you into technology would know this line of SQL is possible with a single consolidated database:
“SELECT * FROM registered_australians WHERE religion = ‘JEWISH’ ”
21 million records (the population of Australia) is small enough to be searched on your home computer in less than a minute or two
I am currently living in China where an ID card is necessary for almost everything. The main objection I have to it is that if you are unfortunate enough to lose it, your entire life is absolutely rooted for the several weeks that it takes to get a replacement.
As I am prone to losing things, this would not suit me at all.
the roll is closed!
The ID would evolve into the be all and end all of proving who you are and doing any transaction in life and thus what you have done. The power this gives to the state and or criminals is too large and too easy to abuse. An aggressive or arrogant State [hmmm Howard govt?] or public service would find it all too easy to make ‘mistakes’ with said card.
Bill of rights would need to come before the card and provide safeguards.
no
just under 2 hours to go
Conducted a highly scientific, random phone survey of one person, my 21 year old niece, an hour before she would have seen any TV news.
Questions and findings, slightly paraphrased, for the sake of economy.
What is a communist? Um, wouldn’t have known, but Uncle J was explaining it recently…North Korea , everyone gets paid the same. What do you think about that? That is bad. (CW thinks her brother J is a nut case, anyway. Sorry, CW means he’s biased).
Who is Julia Gillard? Oh, the redhead. Looks like country singer, Reba. Does that matter? No, doesn’t matter. If you thought Julia was a communist, would it influence your vote? Probably not. What Party does Julia belong to? I think Labor, have seen her next to Kevin Rudd.
Is China a communist or democratic country? I think communist from what Uncle J said.
Does Australia sell uranium to China? Don’t think they do or are. Would that be good or bad? Bad, because communists are bad.
Is Russia a communist or democratic country? I think, were. Does Australia sell uranium to Russia? Not sure.
What if I told you Australia is going to sell uranium to Russia and that Russia is pretty well communist anyway? Should Australia sell uranium to Russia? Well….not sure what uranium is for. What if I told you it could be used for nuclear weapons? Bad!
Who are you voting for? Oooh, that’s personal…well, Labor.
Why? Well Mum votes Labor. I don’t like John Howard. Because of the GST. (Niece goes on to explain, but CW can’t quite fathom the reason).
Does Work Choices have any influence on your vote? No.
Do you prefer Kevin Rudd or John Howard? Kevin Rudd. Why? Dunno… fresh faced, Australia’s in need of a change. Why do you say that? From polls and the papers. Don’t know, most young people don’t know much about it, mostly young people don’t like John Howard. He doesn’t go on Rove. Rove shows that John Howard is a dork. Flappy track pants (etc).
Are you on an AWA? Is that an err…Australian Work Place Agreement? Yes. Not sure if I am.
Explanation by CW.
Oh yeah, but started in work place three years ago. Niece concludes she is probably not on an AWA.
But volunteers that she is on her original contract of three years ago, despite a substantial uplift in level of responsibility, at a DROP of $1.00 in her overall wage and since a 35 cent or so per hour age based only pay rise. That she is trying to work up “the guts” to ask for a pay rise.
That she only recently was eligible for overtime (subject to), after more than a year with this new responsibility. Which cost her any opportunity for penalty rates anyway.
Thinks her contract doesn’t ALLOW her to JOIN a Union. But basically if she didn’t sign, didn’t get the job.
Says newer employees are having to sign their rights away (her exact words). That an HR person is recently on deck to review all the contracts.
Do you think that is likely to get anyone a better deal? No.
Do you think you would get a better deal at work under Labor? Yes. Why? I saw Kevin Rudd’s ad and he said it would make a difference. (Explicates). Have you looked at Labor’s Fair Work policy? No.
Will the proposed Howard tax cuts influence your vote? Tax cuts? More explanation by CW. Was in all the papers. Oh, I don’t read the back pages. Front pages, dear. No idea, only saw Ben Cousins, no T shirt, etc. Only pay $x tax anyway.
CW:Thank you for participating in this survey.
Niece: My pleasure, will read up about so I can give better answers next time. Where will this be on the Internet?
CW: Will email you a copy of the blog.
PS Great tooing and froing among family members checking AEC status, warnings to those who ahem.
The roll is closed, indeed. Guess what I got in my letter box today, however? A Kevin Rudd peice of election progaganda only 2 sections of which was actually K Rudd propaganda.
The rest of it {10 sections} was a 4 step easy to follow guide with “Important Postal Voting Information” which allows me to complete said form and mail it off in a free prepaid envelope to ‘Kevin Rudd MP. Reply Paid 476 Morningside QLD 4170.
Let noone say Labor is not doing all it can [at its own expense in this case] to encourage everyone to vote at this election.
Interesting that the young vote is strong but apparently dominantly present in Labor held seats which is not so good for Labor: better they were spread out across Coalition held seats as well.
Now the rolls are closed the question is moot, but is does beg the question.
Does Labor beleive new voters or absentee Postal Voters are more likely to vote for Labor than the Coalition ?
I think I saw someone quoting research which indicated that is in fact what has been happening or is going to happen at this election.
My nineteen year old son who has been warned that voting for the Coalition brings with it the penalty of being disowned from the genetic hsitory of the clan and being issued with Barbara Streisand CDs for Christmas presents for five years said. “Screw em both Dad, they both have right wings= one is flapping harder than the other: _ I am voting Green”.
I suppose that rates as not voting Coalition but he is pushing it. At stake is an inheritence of four Collingwood Football Club coffee mugs {circa 1990} and a Labor Party HTW Card {circa 1972}. Life would be tough without them.
progaganda + propaganda if you can read, unlike me.
PS I have not seen too many Coalition election ads on the TV yet, Rudds would be roughly rating 3-1 up here at the moment. What is happening in other States ?
Back from dinner
I got a letter today from Senator Judith Troeth (Lib, Vic), in an envelope with a Commonwealth crest on it, and IMPORTANT ELECTION INFORMATION in big letters on the front. In it is a letter from the Senator warning me not to vote Labor because 70% of the Labor frontbench are former union officials. The interesting thing about this is that Senator Troeth is not a candidate at this election, since she was elected in 2004. I’m pretty sure that using her taxpayer-funded mailing allowance to send out party-political mail which is not connected with her own re-election is a breach of the rules. I intend finding out.
Did the Government spokesman say today that the enrolement changes were needed to allow time for a challenge to that enrolement to be processed. Where are the stats to show that such challenges are relevent, like how many of these do they get. Compare that to the 145000 who have already been deleted from the electoral role on some flimsy pretexts. This is from the Karl Rove manual of dirty tricks!
Compulsory ID card of any kind.
Great idea in a perfect world, where politicians and bureaucrats are competent noble people, and data security and integrity hold. But terrible idea in this flawed, dangerous real world I live in.
I have seen first hand, on many occasions, what can happen when the official line conflicts with a legitimate individual reality. Not a pretty sight. For both the individual, and ultimately the community.
No thanks.
Adam,
She’ll probably claim it’s just part of her campaign to educate the electorate on the state of play in politics these days. Just coincidental that it was mailed before the election.
Just me, I’m sorry to hear you live in Burma, or is it Zimbabwe? You should move to Australia, where the worst we have to put up with is ministers who have been in office too long. But we are about to have a democratic election where we can kick them out if we want to.
Adam Says:
October 17th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
And that is the problem with an ID card, only one document to forge. Think of identification as a biological system, mono culture fails with one from of attack.
I do agree we should all have a number , preferable tattooed on the sole of our foot at birth so I can ‘t lose it or forget it when I am old and senile.
Just saw the Chaser, absolutely savage on the Liberal Party. They did things on Labor but that was mild compared to what they did to the Liberals. You can see it on You Tube tomorrow sometime.
Lateline tonight is called campaign midweek. Entirely focused on the campaign with debates, interviews and analysis with pundits and punters. It’s going to be happening every wednesday untill the election. Must watch.
Adam @ 94,
Do go and check that out. If you find out it is not kosher, make sure you report it to someone who can make some noise about it [call someone at The Age and turn her in, would be a nice expose type story ;-D]
Antony, NZ only allows enrolment up till the day before polling day. Still at least 32 days more generous than here! (And they have compulsory enrolment as well)
Adam, still not convinced. If ID fraud is the bugbear, a national ID card just ups the stakes and represents a greater benefit for fraudsters who acquire or can forge a false card. As clumsy as it is, a system that doesn’t place such faith in a single document or number is not inherently more riggable.
Here is the latest update on the US elections.
http://www.electoral-vote.com
Adam, you’re right, the allowances are not to be used for the election/re-election of others, but can be used by the Senator for their own election or for general communication.
I agree, in an election campaign running the same propaganda as the party’s campaign = promoting the party = campaigning for others.
But they’ll just argue they are merely ‘informing’ the electorate (loved Costello today saying he wasn’t launching an attack ‘ad’ but an ‘information campaign). Then they’ll use the old line that critiquing one opponent is not promoting the election of any particular candidate. (There’s a British case accepting that).
Graeme – the letter mentions Adam Held, the Lib candidate in Melbourne Ports, so it’s clearly promoting the election of someone other than herself.
Adam I’m thinking she had no idea who she was mailing it to. Someone like you, with an obvious knowledge of seats, candidates, and electoral laws, could cost her party heaps. Go to it and cause some trouble for the Libs if you can!
Good-o Adam. Onselen and Errington’s papers on ‘duty senators’ and the (mis)use of their allowances will have the links to the entitlement rule you want.
Once upon a time, in a former life, I was an expert on ID card technology. The best thing that happened with the ‘Access Card’ or whatever it was called was that Hockey got his paws on it – it seems to have disappeared without trace. Although I’m sure there are quite a few Liberal mates hanging onto a derived stipend on a committee. Even better, the companies most likely to get the contracts were sure to screw it up. The sad fact is that with a bit of effort concentrated on the technical side it could be extremly effective, but that will never happen as the Government don’t want this to be a card to provide an individual with personal security rather than a card to control your use of Government services.
My only real objection to a national ID card is, as others have already pointed out, it may make ID theft easier.
However
And I’m sure the back in 1933 the good burgers of Germany would have agreed!
Don’t assume we have some special immunity from suffering a similar fate. History shows that any society can sucumb under the ‘right’ circumstances. How many of our freedoms have been curtailed because of a few looney tune terrorists who, despite the fear mongering, pose little actual threat either on an individual level or to our way of life?
Sorry, I forgot to add why this is relevant here. Apparently with the pre-polling, people with various disabilities will be using some sort of computer based voting. This is very intriguing as I have heard almost no mention of this, and certainly not of the technology in use, or which companies have provided the technology. This type of voting in the US has been proven to be vulnerable to failure, and currently in Australia there is no standard to which these computerised voting devices are to perform!
Thanks Chris B, that US stuff is fascinating. I was over there (in a blue state) recently and was told by rusted on Dems that Amurca wasn’t ready to vote for a woman. A black man perhaps, but not no female. Now, that may still hold out, but Hillary’s looking good for the Dem vote.
The scary thing is, in the red corner, the good results for Fred Thompson. I can’t possibly question the sanity of Rep voters (note da irony), but what the hell are they thinking when they have Guiliani – the only person with a chance of downing the Dems – as a candidate? ? Why are they even considering this bloke? Is it a Reagan thing or are the Yanks even weirder than I thought?
Australians haven’t voted to amend the constitution since I believe 1977 (for members to be replaced by new members from the same party, i.e. to avoid another dismissal)
The fact Australians are always wary of amending the constitution makes me think a bill of rights will never happen.
The Labor National Secretariat has a resident expert on these matters called Entitlements Man, whose identity I won’t reveal and indeed have forgotten since I no longer work for an MP. I will be contacting him tomorrow.
Marktwain, the US Republicans have indeed gone mad. They would rather lose the White House than nominate someone like Giuliani or McCain who doesn’t share the view of the Christian fundies. But they can’t find an acceptable alternative. Romney won’t do because he’s a Mormon, and the fundies regard Mormons as pagans. So Fred Thompson is the least bad candidate they can find, and I think they will nominate him. I also think Hillary will beat whoever they put up.
My experience is that senators who are up for re-election have to be careful about supporting other (HR) candidates with heir electoral allowance. I can’t imagine a continuing senator is able to support candidates with the allowance.
Well, my own view is that having information about citizens in different places is in fact one of the main safeguards against abuse of it.
But hey, I grew up in Quinceland under Bjelke. You’ll forgive me if Im not sanguine about the state always looking after my best interests, and only harrassing the guilty.
You got Bjelke-Petersened.
Adam, the truly weird thing about the Yanks is that Mass (the thoroughly royal blue state I visited) elected Romney twice and in his time he brought in a universal health care system and was reasonably well received. Actually, the Bostonites came close to liking the bloke! Now of course he has to court the fundys and is reverting to type (as is Rudi) but he does the fresh-faced Amurcan thang so well, especially with those 436 handsome young sons of his.
McCain was the best option for the Reps early on but he’s considered too old (amongst other things, of course), and yet some of these nutters can’t contemplate Guiliani because of the amount of ex-wives he has.
The whole country is mad. Makes for absolutely fascinating poll-bludging but, eh?
That’s when he was pro choice, anti-gun control, and frequently endorsed democrats.
But it is now year 0, everything starts again.
If only he had won in 2000. He’s someone I wouldn’t of minded Gore losing to.
ShowsOn, somehow I think that if Gore had won in 2000 he wouldn’t be receiving a Nobel Prize today. He’d be as prey to the dictates of political expediency as anyone else.
Would have been nice, though, wouldn’t it?
And I still can’t spell Giuliani correctly. Perhaps he will be consigned to history, like my grade 7 spelling prize?
McCain also supported Bush’s immigration bill (the one genuinely liberal think he has tried to do, since as it happens his business backers want more cheap Mexican labour), so he is unacceptable to the xenophobes of the Repub far right.
Thomson’s not a bad actor, its in the republican tradition.
Poll: As Thompson’s star fades, Clinton’s on the rise
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Fred Thompson got into the Republican race with great expectations.
But since then, Thompson’s taken a lot of flak for a lackluster campaign from party activists in Iowa and New Hampshire.
Support for his campaign has also wavered. The new CNN poll by the Opinion Research Corporation released Tuesday shows Thompson’s support dropping — now at 19 percent, down from 27 percent in September.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/16/schneider.poll/index.html
Elected Romney twice? Really? I can only remember one time -when he was elected as Governor in 2002. He was defeated in his senate race against Kennedy in 1994 and decided not to run for re-election as Governor in 2006 so I think he was only elected once
But Romney is a craven opportunist -he’s flipped flopped on a number of positions he adopted during his 1994 senate campaign when he was seeking to project the image of being a liberal republican. I suspect if he gains the nomination, he’ll start moving back toward the center to make himself a more viable candidate
I still think Thompson has a good chance of winning the nomination. He’s run a lackluster campaign so far but I think he could win solid support from GOP voting blocs who don’t like McCain or Guliani because they are perceived as too liberal but at the same time don’t like Romney because he’s too opportunistic (and I don’t intend to be bigoted here but I’m not sure how the evangelical/fundamentalist Republicans will take to a Mormon)
I also think that ex-Gov Huckabee could be a dark horse. He’s a formidable and slick campaigner and I think he came second in the Iowa straw poll they had a while ago. He’s socially conservative enough to draw votes away from candidates like Romney and is to the right of Thompson so perhaps he’ll also erode the latter’s voting base as well. At the same time he’s also reasonably moderate on some policy issues and may take away some votes from Guliani and McCain
The attitude of some Australians to an ID card is, in international terms, a little silly. The TFN (Tax File Number) was Hawke’s “Alamo” position on th concept and remains to this day.
I lived for 6 years in HK with an ID card, which now have chips in them as well. They were great. Instant ID everywhere and none of this stupid “points” business. It is relatively easy to fake documents that pass for points but not one of these chipped cards.
We would also have the potential to reduce a lot of bureaucracy. At present, few federal departments can communicate with each other about client details, even if that client wants them to. A chipped ID card would allow these easily.
As for information that some Orwellian government might “get” off them and pass around, what? a date of birth? a blood type? a tax number? Again, we have a democracy and if we don’t like what they use it for, surely the opposition will be keen as mustard to oppose it and get it out of there, don’t you think?
Anyway I think it’s all academic. With Bush’s appalling record hanging around their necks, the Repubs are heading for the mother of all hidings. Hillary will sweep all before her.
This is the site for true obsessives
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
I’d like to believe you on your call of a Hillary hiding, Adam, but haven’t seen any evidence yet. (Then again, I still won’t believe Kevin07 will do the job until 11.30pm, Nov 28, even if I desperately want him to.)
Money problems for the Republicans:
.
.
Big Donors Staying Away From GOP Candidates
Even Bush ‘Rangers’ Are Staying Away
By Chris Cillizza and Matthew Mosk
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, October 17, 2007; A01
More than a third of the top fundraisers who helped elect George W. Bush president remain on the sidelines in 2008, contributing to a gaping financial disparity between the GOP candidates and their Democratic counterparts.
Scores of Bush Pioneers and Rangers are not working for any Republican candidate, citing discontent with the war in Iraq, anger at the performance of Republicans in Congress and a general lack of enthusiasm. More than two dozen have actually made contributions to Democrats.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/16/AR2007101602294_pf.html
ID Card: I don’t see why the nazi comparison is unfair – sure we don’t live in Nazi Germany, but political systems can change over time, a database can be there forever. A coup, revolution or gradual shift towards fascism is a possibility, therefore I object to being databased. (I know, I know, it’s already happening anyway
)
Captain Gerrymander, The only post I have read which seemed silly and naive has been yours. Well OK, maybe not only yours.
The governments going to abuse the ID card system and the opposition is going to offer us salvation, right? Because the government is not going to try and put the fear of god into people to convince them that just giving up this little bit of liberty is going to help us sleep safe at night, right? A government would never have the impetus to try and do that to the community, right?
Why not compulsory numbers eg Tax File Number.
Optional ID cards.
There is a precedent for misuse of census data, and the electoral roll could be used for the same purpose. During the first world war the Billy Hughes government sent call up notices to all persons of conscription age on the previous census. It was I believe done before the referendum on the subject, and probably helped defeat it. Both conscription referendums were defeated.
During the period of conscription during the Menzies Holt
Gorton and McMahon governments use was made of university records to identify persons of conscription age, then 20, who had not registered. The age for voting was then 21, so the electoral roll was not much use.
The current age for voting is 18. Should a future government introduce conscription (remember the first government to introduce compulsory military service in Australia was a Labor government) electoral roll data could be used for the same purpose as census data was by the Hughes government during world war one.
Has there been any discussion of this from the APH site? I haven’t seen any mention of it here.
Gavan O’Connor is apparently set to announce his candidacy as an independent today. According to that list, Alan Cadman and Kelly Hoare might soon follow.
Now it probably just means that, when asked, they decided to keep their options open. Still, interesting.
I doubt either Cadman or Hoare will run. Hoare actually indicated she would accept the result despite her disillusionment with the way she was stripped of pre-selection, if my memory serves me accurately. And I got the impression that Cadman, although not ruling out the option of running as an independent, made it clear that it was only a remote possibility
Even Cadman and Hoare were to run as independents, it wouldn’t strike me as being that interesting as a development. Cadman is a Howard loyalist while Hoare is a solid lefty so their preferences will likely end up flowing back to their respective parties.Even if they were elected to the House of Representatives as Independents -and I think this VERY unlikely -they would likely support their respective parties in the event of a hung Parliament so there’d be no suspense there
Adam,
1. Sorry to be so late with my response to this topic.
2. The USSR had a Charter of Rights, guaranteeing among other things the right to free spech, freedom of association, fair trials etc. It was enacted into law in 1936. Stalin ignored it and did what he wanted. You’ve got the cart before the horse, IMO – we need a strong Charter of Rights first, need it to have been there long enough to be universally accepted within the nation – and THEN, after a generation or so, we can be confident that no-one will try to use an ID Card to circumvent it.
“Only the guilty need be scared” – hah! Orwell would have loved that!
Adam
@61: Australia does NOT have a Bill of Rights, the only privacy is given to politicians who want to hide their dirt, the judiciary is appointed by Howard (now 6 of 7 Justices), the Ombudsman is a joke, the populace at large is apathetic, there is no such thing as a free press (you pay cash on the barrelhead for every positive headline)
(cont’d from Adam @61 – accidentally hit “submit” button)
Free trade unions – don’t make me laugh. You can be arrested and fined $20,000 for striking unless the Government says its OK. Slater and Gordon – lawyers, I presume? No relevance to the civil rights of human beings – the legal system worksfor whoever can afford the most expensive lawyer. There is also the saying about prostitutes having higher professional morals than lawyers – there are some clients that prostitutes won’t take on.
Australia has no effective safeguards – plenty of safeguards, but none with both the ability and the will to take on a (hypothetically) dictatorial government, hence ineffective. Given a restored set of safeguards, the ID Card may well be a good thing for Australia – but a free society must err on the side of greater rights, not lesser. The ID Card, in the present climate, would erode the rights of citizens.
Local Liberal member for Wentworth – Malcolm Turnbull accused of deceiving directors
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/turnbull-accused-of-deceiving-directors/2007/10/17/1192300858897.html
Matthew – don’t mean to quibble, but aren’t the fines for civil offences under ‘WorkChoices’ $33 000 (for unions or for that matter employers) and $6600 (for individuals)?
You can enrol on election day in Canada, Nigeria and, I believe, the US. No reason why wed can’t do the same here.
The enrolment form itself seems to have been designed as an impediment to registration; it’s very detailed and hugely complex. One wonders how anyone with limited English could hope to get a vote.