A thread for you all to discuss the debate as it happens. If you don’t like the company round here, there’s a live chatroom at Larvatus Prodeo.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
A thread for you all to discuss the debate as it happens. If you don’t like the company round here, there’s a live chatroom at Larvatus Prodeo.
1,076 Comments
Tonights debate is about Rudd. If he sparkles, doesn’t get defensive with the panel, looks and sounds energetic, doesn’t gaffe, produces the odd decent on-liner – and finishes strongly then he will tell Australia that he is ready. We’re looking – this is your test.
Howard has won the toss and will have the final word.
I have a feeling Howard and Rudd will play it pretty conservative tonight.
However, surely in the back of Rudd’s mind is the thought that he could kill off Howard’s prime ministership tonight. A gaffe by Howard, with a good answer by Rudd could end Howard in the eyes of the voters.
I remember Howard in 1996 saying to Keating “the voters don’t believe you anymore”, it was a harsh comment, but there was some truth to it.
I wonder if Rudd will deliver the same sort of thing tonight.
The Prime Minister should go first. The Prime Minister has always gone first. Howard is CHICKEN!
LOL
Let’s hope for a bit of aggro tonight- we could all doze off by 9.00.
Kevin Rudd should not aim for any kind of knock-out punch. He should be respectful towards Howard. He should appear reassuring. Better to be boring than to try so hard he comes across as a prat.
Most swinging voters with little interest in politics will tune in for a few minutes at the beginning – perhaps flick across during the ads on Kath & Kim. What they need to see is the steady hand of a reasonably dull politician who appears to be on top of the facts, with the occasional dose of fresh ideas – along the lines of the laptop toolbox of the 21st century thing.
Also this would be a smart move for Rudd: Say to Howard “Look you have refused to debate me again during this campaign. But I now invite the guy who is really the LNP candidate for next PM – Peter Costello – to debate me. Will you allow him to do this?”
We have Teh Worm Live!
Where, PC?
The worm is skyrocketing with Rudd.
If this worm gets any higher, he’ll be arrested for holding prohibited substances
The worm fell as soon as Rudd mentioned Costello.
Channel 9
This is Nine showing the worm, yes?
The worm is going underground with Howard.
Howards sinking – someone give the worm some floaties.
He’s sinking… he’s sinking!
Thanks PC. I’ll have to wait two hours.
Like a good worm, it’s going underground while Howard is speaking
I love the worm!
Howard is not saying anything about what he’ll do. Complete contrast to Rudd, who listed a laundry load of actions he will take.
Howard also being negative now as well. Worm has hardly gone into the positive at all.
I think Howard’s problem is he is talking about the past.
Howard’s problem is that he’s out of ideas.
Everytime Howard mentioned unemployment, the worm tanked.
They might need to start working on a new cliche
Every time Howard attacks Rudd, the worm starts diving…
the worm is flatlining get out the defribulator
Can someone tell me how many drinks I have to have. I lost count of the number of times Howard said UNIONS.
Interesting that Rudd took on the economics rather than the industrial issue first.
If this were an AFL game, Rudd would be up by 10 goals, and it’s only the first quarter!
If the 9 worm audience keeps this up, they’ll need to get a room with Kevvie.
Again, then worm has peaked at it’s highest and simply cant go any higher!
the worm loves rudd…….
Rudd’s started well, but he seems a bit nervous.
Bad shot – the camera cuts to Costello and Downer smirking at Rudd, meanwhile the worm is going up.
Those clowns just dont get it.
It would be good to have a little box in the corner of the screen showing the Smirk in all his glory
The openings were interesting – Rudd attacked Howard over not having any plans, and laid out a bunch of them. Howard focussed entirely on the past actions, and attacked Rudd repeatedly for something he hadn’t said.
The worm likes broadband.
Good god the worm hates Howard. I can see why he was scared of it.
Who chose the audience which is operating the worms?
those cuts to Costello are poison for the Libs – the smirking git, not a good look!
Howard is too negative. He needs to go positive if he wants to win.
The worm goes south every time Howard starts to criticise Rudd.
As soon as Howard mentioned Costello, down went the worm again
Howards going as hard as he can and the Worm is neutral.
Rudd breaths and its goes over the 100% mark.
Where are the audience pulled from?
The MUA’s annual general meeting?
Howard is clearly a spent force, Rudd is the future
whoops the worm doesnt like Howard so far.
Has it been in positive territory at all when Howard has his mouth open?
scotty I saw that too! The worm is a bit distracting.
I think those smirks will see an appearance in some ads.
LMAO. The worm just collapsed when Howard mentioned Costello replacing him.
The worm also really really doesn’t like Howard’s negative attacks.
And holy hell it hates Costello. The worm just slammed into the ground when he talked about him.
Costello by Howards side through think and thin! LOL – just not at his dinner table.
The smirking of Peter Costello in the audience is not a good look.
The guy has gotta learn to control that.
Does anyone know how the worm audience was chosen?
Howard just doesn’t get it . You can’t win by being negative and talking about the past. He needs to go positive and talk about the future.
I’m impressed with Speers – he’s proving to be very impartial. I’m also convinced from this that Howard is much more popular than his front bench. He mentiones them, and the worm dives.
Adam – I tend to agree that the worm appears to be a bit dodgy, in that it goes positive almost no matter what Rudd says, and the reverse for Howard.
whats the big deal with howard mentioning twice now that he has his cheer squad wih him?
Has the scale used for the worm graphic been flattened vertically, otherwise the contrast would be even starker!
is it just me, or is Howard sounding desperate and defensive? not a good look for a supposed statesman…
Rudd has a serious memory for figures….
Go Kev get stuck right in!
Here’s a tip – turn the sound off and just watch the worm. It’s great!
200 invited by the Libs and 200 by Labor.
This is just too funny. That worm hates Howard.
How about having a centipede.
7 out of 10. Pure Gold.
For their next show, I think the Chaser needs to send Chas in a worm suit chasing after Rudd to hug him.
Astonishing – did Channel 9 just go to the local ALP branch meeting to scoop up a bunch of people?
200 invited by the Libs and 200 by Labor.
.
.
Acutually ignore that. That’s the audience in the Hall not at Channel Nine. Sorry.
Its a knockout to rudd, call in the trainers to carry Howard out.
Howard is incredibly shrill tonight -repeating negative ad hominem attacks and engaging in tired old cliches. He seems to be living up to his usual standards in televised debates
Rudd got off to a slow start but he’s really performing well now
What’s bad for Howard is that Rudds attack on Howard saying that 7 out of 10 in cabinet didnt want Howard to be there, the worm didnt drop from it’s high level.
That is bad, bad, bad for Howard
Dry econo-talk is bad for the worm on both sides. Services, Unions, the future, climate change is good for the worm. Anything Howards says is bad for the worm.
Go, Rudd, Go!!!
The wormers arent sucked in by all government being ALP
What the hell? Rudd attacks Howard’s time as treasurer, and the worm goes up?!
The Rudd answer about the union thing was well done. Howard’s response has had the worm marginally above zero, which is about as good as he’s managed.
# 50 barbara Says: October 21st, 2007 at 7:47 pm
By invite. 50% coalition/labor.
I lay odds that Janette come on stage and shoves Johnny off and takes over.
How about we apply the worm to journos questions – if the worm drops during the question, they get slimed?
How utterly ridiculous.
damn time difference. Debate not on Nine till 7:30 so I have to watch Sky. Therefore no worm
actually, read that wrong too. That was the hall audience.
Does anyone know how the audience controlling the worm was chosen?
The 9 audience would be swinging voters – that’s the way its usually worked
JWH’s tone is a bit harsh, Rudd more balanced. And JWH keeps hitting that microphone!
Good and clear response from Rudd.
Rudds worm is on VIAGRA!!!!!!
Woah… That tax refund went down well.
The worm needs oxygen at those altitudes.
I’m greatly relieved to hear that. I’m not seeing the worm, but it sound like Nine have stuffed it up again.
Kevin has pwned the worm!
Worm out of control again. Every time Rudd talks – he seems to dealing with issues that affect families whilst Howard is just so negative.
That worm will have an oxygen mask dropping out of the overhead cabinet soon
wtf is happening with the worm
howards on the nose
Rudd is constantly pushing the line that he’s been “across the country” and “talking to people”… He’s constantly saying this and thus reinforcing the perception that he is listening to the voters. It’s a very strong line to take and it’s winning the battle of the worm. Howard is not countering this approach and it’s going to cost him.
the channel 9 audience must be made up of Rudds family. It loves him.
Tha ALP tax plan is a winner if the worm is representative. Does anyone know if Crosby-Textor and the like do this sort of thing to roadtest their talking points? Because the disparity between the two of them with the worm-reaction is stunning.
If the worm is swinging voters, it’s behaving pretty much as the big polls, and the way Rudd has positioned himself suggests it should.
Worm’s only about 80% for rudd
LOL @ barbara
Don’t forget that Rudd is ahead and only needs a draw. Howard is behind and needs a win to create some momentum.
“80
red wombat Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Rudds worm is on VIAGRA!!!!!!”
That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. Im sure Therese will be pleased.
I think we need a larger scale for the worm – Rudd is bouncing off the roof!!
I can’t quite believe the worm.
It must be hard concentrating with the Smirk and Dolly in the front row.
“72
red wombat Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 7:52 pm
I lay odds that Janette come on stage and shoves Johnny off and takes over.”
Stop it, your killing me.
Looks like Grumpy Grampa turned up to debate Uncle Kev tonight. No wonder the worm is ambivalent or negative towards him.
Howard on monetary policy – the worm’s on mogodon!
Quick someone get some defib paddles. John Howard is in cardiac arrest according to Nine’s worm.
Similarly, Rudd might need some serious medication to scrape him off of the ceiling.
And so far we have only discussed economy!
17% interest rates just dont do what they used to as a cliche
the worm is ambivalent to the old 17% interest line…lol
Poor Janette. Howard just can’t get the worm up tonight.
When Howard speaks the worm flat lines. It not because they a re neutral it’s because they are asleep.
Howard has killed the worm is it dead?
It’s only an indication, not meant to be taken literally. I still say Howard’s problem is that he is being too negative and that’s why the worm is on a downer when he speaks.
These are marginal voters in charge of this thing aren’t they?
Let’s have a little balance here folks
Given how badly Howard’s attacks on Rudd have gone so far, I fear for the worm’s continued health when we get to the bit where the leaders question each other.
My god, Howard’s touching the 17% Keating/Hawke talking point, after Rudd already mentioned that it was 22% under Howard/Fraser.
Spears question asking for an apology for interest rates was ballsy. Howard’s claim that he accepts responsibility is just bulldust in it’s purest form.
Howard is full of shit. He believes in ministerial accountability????
Another perception from this debate, looking purely at the worm alone:
The audience in the channel nine studios is quite possibly mirroring the general public in that when Howard is speaking, they either don’t care and the worm stays around the zero mark, or they reject his attacks on Rudd.
When Rudd is speaking, the viewers like what they’re hearing, and the worm goes up. It’s very interesting to see this reaction live.
Mark, you’re right. The Wormers just aren’t reacting to Howard at all. No interest.
Great debate, Rudd is coming across very well.
Howard is out of ideas and tricks.
Can see why Howard did not want the worm, with Rudd it powers off for Australia’s future, with Howard its dive dive dive.
Rudd’s worm needs a space suit?
Howard is bereft of ideas and his message is falling on deaf ears.
The worm needs defibrilating. Intertest rates is killing it.
i love this worm, before rudd even opens his mouth it is on the 2nd top bar..
Someone resuscitate the worm!
Howards moment is coming…..wait for it – oooooooopppppsss!
“50
barbara Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Does anyone know how the worm audience was chosen?”
Howard’s Cabinet
charlie@105… thanks for that. I’m going to be lying awake tonight and twitching in horror at the thought.
I am a veterinary surgeon and I am expecting an emergency phone call about a worm that needs revival very soon (or sedation if Rudd is on)
Paul Kelly’s not convinced.. roflol
Go the worm!
A flatline is as good as downhill from Howard from Rudd. People don’t need to hate Howard to not vote for him. They just need to think he is no longer relevant.
Paul Kelly just threw a curveball at Howard, even the GG has turned on him!
Kina – LOL!
Charging…..
Clear!
*Thwap*
Howard’s problem is he comes across as a nasty person. A constant frown, contrasted to Kevin’s more positive facial expressions.
Objectively speaking, I’m quite impressed with Rudd tonight. He is usually very wooden, but he’s doing quite well. Again, a proviso that I think the debate’s are almost completely irrelevant in the general scheme of things.
I think the worm mainly indicates that people are fairly much sick of hearing the sound of Howard’s voice. Rudd is fresh young face. I suspect you cannot read too much into this very wide disparity. It’s a knee jerk reaction to the boring has-been versus the fresh face – but it far from necessarily reflects voting intentions.
OK I will try for some balance. Watching the ABC, without the worm, I think Howard is making his standard points perfectly competently. Before I get too carried away by the worm, I want to know how the Ch9 audience was recruited.
oops we crashed LP
What I was trying to say in 113 is that the audience is a microcosm of the electorate in that they’ve stopped listening to Howard.
He really appears droning, boring and carping by comparison to Rudd.
Paul Kelly questioning Howard now on his tax cuts and the effect on the economy.
Worm is just below neutral at best.
Is anyone keeping tabs on the number of times the phrase “working families” is uttered?
I know this might sound odd, but I really think Howard’s age is showing. His ‘ticker’ – as he used on Beazley – isn’t really there at all. He’s pausing so much that he sounds very unsure of himself except for when he’s being negative about Rudd or referring to the past.
Mr Speaker! Mr Speaker! I move that Mr Kelly no longer be heard!
That hand waving is a bit distracting on TV – probably quite effective for the auditorium, but 200 committed voters there.
barbara @ 123. As a psychiatrist I think you might also want to pack some Prozac for JWH and Lithium for KR.
Most marginal seat voters are about to switch over to Kath & Kim.
Not having the protection of a Speaker and having to actually answer questions is exposing him as an inadequate debater.
Rudd could start reciting the dictionary and the worm would move up
the worms hanging ten
Super H is looking uncomfortable !
Rudd should stick to the positives.
Better tell that worm to stop what it’s doing to Rudd’s leg; Howard’s feeling left out.
In case you missed it earlier today Rudd promised tax cuts for all worm australians, you can see it really paying off for Labor now.
Ok. Now I know why the Libs didn’t want the worm. They focus grouped it and realised that Rudd could get away with bagging Howard. Now the media know. They will go on the attack as well. Now the public and Labor supporters know the morale boost will be immense.
Dear god – Howard’s line that he wouldn’t ever consider re-evaluating the tax cuts is handing the ALP a great club.
I just don’t understand how it is that the wormers hate Howard going negative, but love it when Rudd goes negative. I wonder if it’s a tone thing – Howard really does sound like Grandpa Simpson.
LTEP – I agree, Howard looks decidedly shifty when listening to questions. No confidence, he will become more rattled as this debate goes on.
I know I said it before, but Rudd’s memory for figures is very, very strong.
Rudd is on fire. Absolutely blitzing. Must have had a good night’s sleep and a nice relaxing day fill of cramming.
Mr Grumble-bum.
he’s losing his temper and Ruddy is cool as cucumber!! oh yeah baby
H is loosing it!
As Ruddy said – we should ALL be friends of the worm. And I am now!
No wonder JWH only wanted the one and sooooo early. THerein the rub – does it mean much? Better wait till the end tho
Howard is having a whinge already
Ooh… a little bit of biffo about the OECD literature…
Howard’s crying crocodile tears now! He’ll take his bat and ball and go home shortly – what a sook he is.
When Howard mentioned the Unions funding to the ALP why didn’t Rudd mention:
EB
Lord Michael Ashcrofts $1million in 2004
Pratts monies
67,000! Love it. Rudd is so hot right now.
Finally. A Labor leader who gives credit to Bob Hawke and Paul Keating. Hoorah!
GReat Hawke Keating economic reform!!!!!!
Stick it to him Kevvie
agreed AnthonyL
About bloody time. Thankyou Kevin, for finally doing something to reclaim Labor’s economic legacy.
Typical- Costello barracking fom the sidelines. He cant help himself.
FFS union thing and balance, what twaddle
Kel is romancing Kath on the kitchen table.
Costello is a classic. He’d be more fun to watch that Grumble Bum Howard.
Costello, barracking for which one?
There is a bit of a lift from 0 when Howard starts slamming unions, which might explain why he keeps mention it
I think Costello is cheering for Rudd.
Rudd is actually doing very well highlighting the positive aspects of Labor’s economic record in government -it has taken some of the sting out of Howard’s arguments on economic issues
LOL-now Howard’s returned to the 70% trade unions representation in the Labor federal cabinet. Is he really that desperate to show that he’s out of new arguments and ideas?
Oh. Now workchoices has “balance”. Ha!
I hope howard keeps talking about Work Choices.
Sky Fall In! Now who needs a bingo card?
Workchoices, quick the worm needs an ambulance.
The worm has spoken-Howard has no credibility on anything.
Johnnie’s sky is falling in right now …
Has the worm a plastic covering?
Workchoices not so good for Howard.
Does anybody know how many jobs are created ‘normally’ (ie, prior to Workchoices, in the same period of time?)
I had to go and take a leak. What did $weetie do?
IR reform gives Howard’s worm brewer’s droop or a flatline
Good one Laurie remind him of his core and non-core promises!
Howard is getting grumpier and grumpier, he butts in instead of waiting his turn as well.
The Lib’s IR policy has no traction at all for the mug punter, it just an outright negative for them…..bring on those anti-WC ads!
The worm just doesn’t care about what Howard says – has it got further the one bar into positive territory at any point in the night?
Howard’s pissy moment over the OECD really does show the difference between Question Time and normal human behaviour. That shot would have gone down fine in QT, but looked awful in this context.
In all seriousness, has Howard actually mentioned any future plans at all, aside from the tax cuts?
Howard is taking a hell of a battering. The questions are spun against him.
Howard looks so shifty and the worm is giving him a belting.
Are we actually getting lectured by Howard “You there watching this…” Wow! A new low.
the worm confirms
worstchoices stinks
I’m surprised that the worm seems neutral when Howard talks WorkChoices… no, I spoke too soon.
The worm is flatlining for Howard.
Go Laurie give it to Howard
No Iraq questions yet.
I’m calling it. Howard looses his cool. Howard loses his cool. Will be the headlines tomorrow. I wish for “Captain Grumpy!” but don’t think it’ll happen. It would in the UK.
I will never hear a bad word against Laurie Oakes or Paul Kelly again – neither can be snowed, and they’re both capable if dishing it out to any side. Plus a whiff of blood in the water really gets them going …
Howard – glass jaw
Thats right Kev- Howard has been rabbiting on and on and on.
The worm is being a bit unrealistic now. It just went up as soon as Rudd opened his mouth.
“My mate joe” aka Shrek.
Oops I meant Howard loses debate. And. Howard loses cool. Will be the headlines.
Sweet Jesus, the worm is gonna need oxygen. It’s in the stratoshpere!
I didn’t think we had public executions in Oz any more …
Climate debate will be fun.
Excellent Rudd answer on WC2 under Howard/Costello
Rudd is not doing as well as he should be on the industrial relations/work choices question -he sounded slightly garbled and hesitant in his opening lines. He needs to come across more strongly on this issue. Still a good performance by him but not as good as it could be
Hpward keeps going on about unions, and he lost his temper. I’ve never seen a more one sided result.so far.
Rudd should blow his nose. Looks like its running.
Its gotta be at least 70:30 on the worm alone.
Why should he? It worked fine in 1977.
And what did Cossie do in the debate??
WC should be a no brainer for Rudd
Wrong, its an 8% increase on 90 levels
Don’t lose your composure, Kev.
I think the worm’s insta-love for Rudd is just telling us that the worm-drivers want to hear from him. They’re just not interested in hearing further from Howard. This is a bad sign – Howard needs to get people to pay attention to him to recover in the polls.
LOL chatroom @ Larvatus is struggling
I think Kevvie is getting tired.
He’s starting to fluff a little…
but he corrected himself. phew!
The Media will probaly jump the Titanic tommorrow, they really dont want to be associated with a losing candidate.
Kev’s handing Howard’s head to him here.
Thank God he credited the unions, Keating, Hawke and mentioned Howard as treasurer.
hmmmm Hartcher question on global warning was a good one. he stumbled but recovered well.
Albert: Cossie was making some sort of off the cuff comments in the peanut gallery. Again, the sort of thing you can get away with in the sheltered workshop of parliament, but not in front of real humans.
Wow the worm is alive!
I think it’s pretty smart for Rudd to be sinking the boot into Howard, whilst remaining positive, because it serves to highlight their differences, thereby reducing the credibility of charges of ‘me-too-ism’.
Good reply to Paul Kelly
Wooah. Someone’s hijacked the worm. Nope. Flatlining again. I think someone must have got their dial stuck.
490 parts per million CO2–what detail!
Keating accused one of his colleagues of swallowing a f%$##% dictionary. Kevvy’s swallowed climate change science books
i’m amazed at hwo smart rudd is,….so may facts and he speaks on a very broad range of issues…while howard speaks more basically and with no real bits of information just ercciting their usal talking points
i think the worms a lie detector
High worm response when Howard admits global warming.
But drops to 0 when he starts talking about their action.
hahaha gusface you’re right good call
Geez. Even the word pensioners doesn’t get him a lift.
# 189 Michael Says: October 21st, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I’m surprised at their balance.
I think Rudd has work to do on climate.
Stumbles… slight recovery. General estimates are about 80% GHG reduction by 2060 for developed countries, allowing for a modest rise from developing countries. But Rudd still does well
worm is alive!
Fund for climate change in 2011, bit late Mr Howard?
from SMH..
Channel Nine added the “worm” to its broadcast of the elction debate last night – breaking conditions laid down by the Government not to do so.
It did not tell either political party it was planning to do so. The worm measured the response from 90 uncommitted voters in a Channel Nine studio in Sydney watching the debate.
Nine’s direct feed of the broadcast live from the Great Hall at Parliament House in Canberra was cut, but it was still able to show the debate and the worm by using a backup feed.
The backup feed was also cut, forcing Nine to re-broadcast the coverage from Sky News.
a link for Larvatus ?
Not one question about Iraq or Health yet.
Howard sounds like a bumbling dinosaur on climate change and his befuddled attacks on Rudd on the issue are falling flat
Ah! Here comes the cricket analogy -he really does sing from one predictable songbook
Kina – its at the top. don’t bother
Oops PM is in trouble, plan B, start throwing around more money, how cynical.
Oooh – climate change policy announcement from JWH … we’ll do something about it in 4 years …
“Mr. Howard we need to move on” – truer words never spoken.
The worm started out positive for Howard’s climate change response, got a whole 2 bars into positive. Then off into the negative and back again. Still his best reaction from the worm.
The new climate fund Howard just announced – I wonder if he just made it up now? Shoulda had a reaction shot of Costello crying.
And Howard needs to get some discipline – talking over the moderator looks terrible.
Now Dubbya gets a mention. Not looking good for JWH
That is a lie China said the proper process for Climate Change is Kyoto and not the APEC 6.
Start talking in mandarin Ruddy!
I thought climate change was a -ve for Howard, the worm likes it
Sorry but I’ve lost faith in the worm. It just jumps no matter what Rudd says. Rudd is winning the debate but not as easily as the worm suggests.
The worm jumps up as soon as Rudd starts to speak. People want to hear what he has to say. Reverse for Howard but he has had a few minor lifts.
I’m very suspicious of the worm.
Rudd started talking saying “Mr Howard..” and it had already hit the roof.
hmm
Keeping talking about GWB.
“Nuclear Reactors out the back door”… love it (and into your backyard lol)
Unsurprisingly, Bush a negative for Howard
wow the worm is digging a trench now,
The Great Helmsman can change Dubya’s mind on climate change…uh, not according to the worm.
The worm has gone to hell… oops
I am impressed and pleased with the balance of the moderator and the panel so far.
And Rudd is doing considerably better than Howard. (I am not watching Ch 9, so the worm don’t count for me.)
Debate goes nuclear, why didnt Howard bring up this, when talking about climate change?
Very clever of Peter Hartcher to mention George Bush. The worm fell through the floor the moment the name came up!
Holy crap, that worm doesn’t want anything to do with the Coalition on Climate Change, and Bush seems to be a -50 point handicap right off the bat.
Bush won’t do a thing and Howard knows it – it will only happen if Democrats win in 2008.
Wow.
Howard didn’t rebut the nuclear reactor thing… Thats such a potential poison I can’t believe he didn’t say something.
Especially since he bit on the OECD report thing.
Yr buddy dubya can’t save you now
Save the lips service Howard…Climate change is more than window dressing at APEC!
Does the worm start again for Rudd or Howard from where it left off after they have spoken.
Wow – points for bravery to Channel 9 for running the worm anyway. I wonder what revenge the Libs will take on them?
And while Howard’s climate stuff produced a good worm result, Rudd’s was stratospheric.
Based on the reaction from the worm, the US is worm-poison. The ALP should just run an ad of a picture of Howard and Bush.
Credit where it’s due. David Speers is doing a very good job. Controlled, balanced, neutral, fair.
not watching, just reading the comments.
most entertaining bit
seems howards worm is flater than hockeys cushion
here we go howard in faux statesman mode- give us a break
What the hell was that John?
yawn.
I think I saw the Howard twitch…..feeling the pressure for sure.
I hope there is a doctor standing by …
sounds like Howard will need a stretcher
Howard much more relaxed and less hectoring, but he’s still waving his arms around too much. Optimistic words on freedom and fighting terrorism get a good response from the worm. The word Iraq is a negative though.
Speers has pleasantly surprised me tonight. Credit where it’s due indeed.
Oh no he’s onto Bali, “I will never surrender…”
Hatred of free society…hate our way of life… the usual Bushovic crap.
(They hate our foreign policy, Mr Howard)
# 268 Flash Says: October 21st, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Props to Speers. He’s doing a great job.
this worm can’t be serious – seems that it is a popularity poll and no one is listening to what either of them is saying!
Good fun as they both weasel about without saying anything!
Dodging Iraq question – very obvious and very bad.
Concise, clear and calm response from Mr Rudd. That should be Howard’s territory.
Concur on Speers’ performance – very balanced and impartial
By the looks of the worm, there goes Howards terrorism Tampa-esq scare
John Howard…_ Dubya’s sock puppet!
I dont have tv here – but reading this is more entertaining
Rudd owning Iraq and Terrorism. They like Howard, they like him more.
It is sad. Winston is sticking to the key lines and themes. Usually a safe bet, but they are so baaaaad. He just doesn’t get it anymore.
Answer the friggin question Howard!
Speers beats Ray Martin. I hope Rudd asks himself a question when its time.
Terrorism ra-ra = a positive.
Talking about Iraq = wormdeath.
And again the worm-drivers just love hearing from Rudd on the subject.
I’m looking forward to seeing Alexander having a massive tanty about Channel 9. I believe he’s designated tanty-chucker now?
stereotypical worm – always leans Labor/left
What I want to know is why Howard was acting like he was about to cry and got flustered earlier on.
This is a slaughter. Rudd looks and sounds like a Prime Minister.
Goodness I love that worm. May Channel 9 make a profit this year for putting it up!
As long as Howard’s ar#e points to the ground he isn’t going to do another debate.
Who needs to watch the debate, this blog is great!
howard just lloks grumpy and not poistive, hwo can u have a man who is so negative lead teh country?………i want positive thoughs form my leadres
Props to the wormites for getting the difference between ground troops and regional naval forces.
If JwH is this grumpy come question time this thing will turn into a blood bath.
What I want to know is why Howard was acting like he was about to cry and got flustered earlier on.
Indeed. Howard’s voice has nearly broken several times throughout the debate.
Worm likes nuance on Iraq, doesn’t like black or white.
It is no irrefutable that Howard made a grave mistake by agreeing to any debate at all. Even just one – five weeks out from polling day.
Janette start packing your bags, you are on notice from the voting public, your lease expires on 24/11/2007 and we wont be renewing it.
On the other hand, Crosby-Textor just got a massive massive amount of free research from the worm. Unfortunately nothing good.
Rudd has, in my opinion, has performed pretty well on most issues so far. Struggled a bit on environment, nervous at beginning but has excellent opening remarks – future, vision. Howard has been a dog’s breakfast. He performed better on environment than I thought and alot worse on security (so far). He’s a mess.
No speaker to protect him, flusters him – pity I’m not getting a chance to see whether Costello still has a smirk on his face.
Howard is on the backfoot he’s been forced to make at least 2 major policy announcements tonight. One about Climate Change fund and now about reviewing troops in Iraq.
“What I want to know is why Howard was acting like he was about to cry and got flustered earlier on.”
Give Ratty a break – he’s nearly 70 after all.
Speers keeps telling Howard to STFU and stop rambling like some demented old codger.
Not a good look.
Whoa Uhlmann gets nasty
Howard needs to stick to talk back radio.
Where is Glen?
Interesting that the only thing Howard marginally scored on was Climate Change (maybe the balanced Ministry argument).
I wonder if Rudd running short on answers is a tactic?
It’s certainly adding to a mild impression of Howard rambling.
He can even score on being against the death penalty!
God I wish the debate actually had an effect on the election
308
Did Howard give Australians a break, he is getting what he deserves,
he sowed he reaps it.
Rudd has been spectacular.
WOW. Rudd just got thrown some justified hard/attack questions. He’s hit his stride. Even managed to highlight consistency between both parties ideology on death penalty.
Questioning each other is going to be a word of fun.
Spears bringing up reconciliation = huge props to the man.
No questions on health David. Why move on to reconciliation first?
Yes it’s happened several times tonight Possum but Howard does have hearing problems. I wonder if Ulhmann will give it to Howard on reconciliation?
I’m sowwy!
There goes a few thousand votes in North Sydney and Goldstein
317
“he sowed it he reaps it”
Rudd’s so passionate.
I like him, that’s what I look forward from a leader of Australia
Howard can’t sustain his anti-sorry stance anymore. He just sounds silly. But the worm likes it??? go figure. Mal Brough is a vote winner though.
So he can’t say sorry, but he can say “sorry”?
excellent – sorry doesn’t mean an apology!
Guess this will be another liberal policy labour adopts!
Think we need a third option here!
He was on a role with reconciliation till he started talking about his team.
too little too late Mr Howard.
Ulhmann is a Howard stooge. No chance.
Howard’s justification for not issuing an apology by contrasting it with the reaction he would give to the death of a friend is just bizarre.
# 312 barbara Says: October 21st, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Probably in the hall.
He’s the president of the young liberals after all…
barbara @ 312, what’s the betting that The Staffer Sometimes Known As Glen is sitting in the audience, head in hands and lump in throat?
Masterful response from Rudd on reconciliation.
Build a bridge Mr Rudd.
The worm loved him not saying sorry, weird.
You realize, if tomorrows headlines are a win to Rudd on the debate AND a positive Newspoll for Labor, the Liberals campaign is going to have a bad, bad week.
That bridge building metaphor for reconciliation was pure gold… inspirational stuff…
The reconciliation response from Rudd was masterful.
adrian, I emailed Uhlmann my full correspondence with the ABC concerning him three weeks ago. Received a reply thanking me for my interest.
Debate is going well for Howard, isn’t it!
cheers,
Alan H
I havn’t seen a worm all night, while watching the ABC, but while I was tense beforehand about the outcome, I would say that each issue has either been a clear win for Mr Rudd or a draw. I look forward to tomorrow’s press write-ups with great interest.
The ‘bridge building’ was an excellent stance from Rudd.
sorry #335 for stealing your thunder – great minds think alike
Rudd’s IR policy – A bridge too far!
Rudd’s Reconciliation policy – Building a bridge!
Rudd’s Housing Policy? – Under a bridge downtown?
Rudd is absolutely brilliant tonight! I am impressed x 100.
I don’t get these direct questions. Too polite.
Rudd is coming across as pleasant and warm..
Kev’s done a BIG touch down!
AnthonyL, remember not to be tricky with policies. Downer learnt that lesson – things that batter. But I definately endorse your suggestion for the first too.
Left-right-knockout from Rudd.
Excellent work by Rudd – interest rate rises, Workchoices, Iraq – reinforces the message.
Howard is trying to wrap himself in the flag. What a scoundrel!
ohh Grumble Bun is back.
pants on fire …
Hiding behind the armed forces! Not good
What was Mr Howard thinking of when he asked Mr Rudd about Mr Rudd’s conversation with GWB on climate change? A real full toss ripe for hitting to the boundary. Duly dispatched.
Howard’s looked like he does not want to be there for about an hour.
Fingers crossed, Mr Rudd asks himself a question.
The worm doesn’t think people will believe it
I think John is going to cry. I’m feeling a bit sad for him.
Howard “people will believe it”…..worm dives….hahaha
Howard talks about GWB and is hated, Rudd talks about him and the worm starts humping his leg.
God that first question from Howard to Rudd was a wasted opportunity for Howard. I restate again my earlier point – this is the sort of thing you get away with in Question Time. It was a dumb question and trivial to smack out of the park.
I’m guessing one of the words that will be used about Howard tonight is “testy”.
I wonder if Channel 9 will make the raw worm data available? It’d be like the highest grade of Possum Crack.
I just saw Dubyas hand up Howard’s behind…what a sock puppet!
Good god, the worm hates Howard even when he’s just asking a question?
Howard is cactus. Rudd has won this hands down, the longer it’s gone the worse Howard’s performance. Great closing onslaught from Rudd.
Labor’s odds with the bookies have shortened with Centrebet during the course of this debate from $1.71 to $1.60. The first turnaround since the election was called. Money talks.
Howard’s brittle. He’s lost his temper three times and the worm dived. His questions to Rudd are just dumb. He keeps inviting him to speak to his strengths.
shanahans latest headline
‘Howard nearly wins debate’
Rudd is the clear winner. Howard just came across as yesterday’s man.
Nice mention of Queensland. Everyone have a shot.
Libs me-too me-too! glad you finally made this point Kevvie!
Rudd can’t agree to the rules accepted by his Party Secretary!
I can’t believe how poor the calibre of Howard’s questions were – wasted opportunities for him. Allowed Rudd to hammer home his strengths. They really shouldn’t have tried the Republican tactic of trying to turn a weakness into a strength in 90 minutes. Dumb.
@368
I think its because the Lib’s really believed he didn’t have answers to the questions!
Australian all let us rejoice for we are Howard free.
Rudd the Dudd, this debate has proved it.
Yup. Rudd is a clear winner.
Howard came across as a dinosaur.
They’re trying to give him a good send off. But alas the worm is not for a-turning (ref M. Thatcher).
Howard believes in the Australina people.
Ah the 50’s education plan
Did Howie just say we could do ok without him?
Rudd sounded too earnest in his closing. Howard sounded exhausted. And like he’d memorised it. Did they even talk about education? weird closing remarks.
strong finish for Howard… he’s much better at set pieces than he is at debating
I would rather take a licking in a television studio than the great hall. I wonder why Howard chose it.
Oh dear back on the culture wars – this won’t go down well.
Here a narrative of history,,,super H looses the debate & the Election!
The tone of Howard’s closing summary sounded like a concession speech.
The only 2 topics Howard got any real traction on tonight was Climate Change and Education – both mother topics and therefore Labor. So no good news there.
yeah, howard finished stronger but what a bad start.
AShamed of your Australian story, Mr Howard, cos you’re living in the 1950s still.
THE WORM HAS SPOKEN and I think it said “Men and Women of Australia, It’s Time.”
I thought it was a completely BIZARRE finish by Howard. He talked about an issue that was Rudd’s. How very weird.
Very weak close by Howard – reactionary and backward-looking
Ray Martin just said the worm was censored.
3 R’s, woodwork shop, & Capt Cook – now THAT’s an education revolution, go Johnny
Terrible close by Howard. Sticking out the culture wars to close? What was he thinking?
Was there a vote in this for super H?
If the kids need to know about history than can google it on Rudds new laptops
Was Ray Martin saying that the feed was pulled by a nasty Liberal?
The Senator just briefed us,
he was very happy with David Spears and Chris Uhlmann’s objectivity and the structure of the debate. Overall a draw.
Howard’s closing was terrible. What a wasted opportunity for him… does he really think people will be basing their vote on history curriculum?
The big story:
Worm flogs Howard, someone tries to censor the worm…
Ray Martin just said the worm was pulled , inferring by the govt organisers. Worth watching Ch9 for a while now, just to see the lovely Annabel Crabbe.
I didn’t get that. What did he mean?
in which parallel universe ES?
So that’s why Glen isn’t on line. He was sabotaging the worm.
Dear oh dear – being as fair-minded as I can, that was an AWFUL closing speech. He undid any good some of his earlier shots may have achieved. It amounted to saying “Let’s go back to the way things were when I was young”, and reinforced the view that he is just a reactionary who fears change. VERY ill-advised. He should have banged the union domiantion drum again in his closing speech.
Annabel Crabb, What disgracefull bias.
Hi ESJ,
take off those beer goggles & have an alka-selza. Ruddy trump it!
Ray Martin has called it for Kevvie. Game over!
The Worm hates Costello.
Ch9 lost the link for a while, Martin suggests the plug was pulled by the organisers.
Nothing like trying to spruik up nationalism/patriotism to boost your campaign when you’ve got nothing else new or interesting to offer.
I liked Martin’s comments about the worm being censored -”so much for freedom of political speech”. Priceless!
Even Sky is giving the debate to Rudd by a “clear margin”.
Still everyone, let’s remember – Howard has been widely perceived to have lost every debate as PM – but he’s won the bloody elections!!!
The ABC said quite flatly that the government pulled the plug on Ch9 because they were using the worm. This will look DREADFUL in tomorrow’s press.
I’m not ashamed of Australia, I am ashamed of what Howard has done, I wish Howard hadn’t dragged our international reputation through the mud.
I wonder if we’ll find out who yanked the feeds.
I predicted that Rudd would cream Howard. Howard was whipped and blended as well!
The Liberals Cheated. And they still lost.
Can you believe that Howard is planning on setting up a fund to subsidise air conditioners as part of his climate change policy??
Listen to Crabbe try and hand the debate to Howard! Unbelievable. Insinuating that it was Rudd paying lipservice to issues without providing plans and Howard pressing him on that. sheesh.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralian/comments/leaders_debate/
Let’s cut the biased analysis, Crabbe. Show us the worm stats, not the spin.
After 30 minutes why didn’t someone from the Libs throw a “white towel” on stage. Howard was trashed!
25% to 65% according to the worm.
Worm verdict
Rudd – 65 vs Howard – 29
Howard got creamed-big time. The worm has turned.
29:65 a clear victory for Rudd.
bahaha! 9 ran the worm anyway – and Howard tanked for 90 mins!! Audience awarded it 65-29 to Rudd (6 undecided)
My view: Rudd stumbled once or twice, but Howard ramlbed and bored more.
Rudd nailed him (eventually) on climate, and comprehensively on Dorkchoices.
Another useless phone poll coming up.
The Worm says Rudd won the debate 65-29.
And yes, I thought Annabelle Crabb’s commentary was rather uninsightful.
The worm says 69/25 to Rudd. Howard’s a consistent loser.
Annabelle’s commentary was an exercise in trying to walk across a backyard full of Labradors and not step in a dog turd…
Annabelle Crabbe exists to be light and fluffy. Political puff pieces.
I liked the subliminal message in “Mr. Howard we need to move on”.
Though I wonder how many actually watched the debate? I know my neighbours didn’t; not enough car chases or explosions…
I’d be interested to know the ratings – how many people actually saw it?
#433: But he is a consistent winner where it actually counts. As he has shown, winning a debate does not win you government.
Annabel is a closet Howard supporter. That’s her piccie gone off the wall.
A cardboard cutout with a tape recording strapped to the back would have won this debate for Mr Rudd.
Howard needs a Bex and a good lie down.
Even for those who didn’t see, if the stories tomorrow are “Rudd wins debate” and “Libs censor worm” that will be a big plus for Labor.
the quanta of difference in the worm between the two speakers was bollocks..
normalise the worm around zero and lets see what the key issues were….
Adam: Me too, especially those who decided to watch Ch 9 because it had the worm. I want to see Howard attacking 9 tomorrow for breaking the rules.
If Newspoll is good for Howard, I suspect that it may be released early to drown out the debate analysis.
Debate still not due to start on Nine in Perth for 10 minutes. Will be interesting to see if we still get the worm for the period it was showing.
Where’s Glen? Did you notice the shot of Costello five minutes into the debate. The SMIRK was absolutely PERFECT. Hilarious, pure gold!
Well done Mr Rudd.
HAHA
The worm was turned up to 11 tonight for the Ruddster.
Listened to it on the radio, read the running commentary from pollbludger, thanks for the entertainment.
The worm seemed to re-start where it previously ended for each speaker.
So does everyone on here believe that the worm was representative of the electorate?
An awfully conducted debate.
I concede Howard’s defeat, but so much for free-flowing discussion.
More like longwinded rhetoric.
I think the worm may have ‘exaggerated’ a bit but it was broadly in line with an objective view of the relative performances
That depends on how Ch9 recruited the audience, which I don’t know
The worm was on the screen for the entire debate (9 Adelaide). But they seamlessly switched feeds between a dedicated 9 feed, and one from Sky News.
Wow, lots of comments! I stopped commenting here at about the 40 minute mark so I could focus on the debate.
One interesting aspect of this debate I think is that the worm will give Rudd and his team an idea of what the voters not only like to hear from him, but also what they don’t like to hear from Howard.
It might seem obvious to say that, but it’s important to get that feedback on how Rudd’s message is being perceived, and to get it while there’s still 5 weeks left in the campaign. Might be a mistake from Howard to have the debate so early in the campaign in that respect.
Crabbe is not biased, cut the crap. As a former Liberal Party member, who has voted ALP since 2001, I cannot wait untill Howard is defeated at the next election. At least then the Liberal Party might actually be able to rebuild itself and stand for something.
Watched it on the ABC. What a shellacking. Rudd just tore Howard a new ar**hole.
And it was all televised live.
Janette had better start packing.
#450
bill weller Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 9:22 pm
So does everyone on here believe that the worm was representative of the electorate?,
Not really Bill,but it was fun to watch.I thought Mr Rudd won the debate.
Now we know why Howard insisted on only one debate, and as early as possible. He will need the five weeks to recover from the roasting he is going to get tomorrow, not just over the debate but over trying to suppress the worm. Whose bright idea was that?
Sorry if this is a bit late coming in but I didn’t have access to a computer while the debate was running …..
The worm was being fed by the audience in Channel 9’s studios, they broadcast it in place of the 60 minutes show tonight. I don’t recall how many that they had in the studio nor how they were chosen. The 200 + invited by Libs and Labor were in the Great Hall where the debate actually happened **BUT** they were not the people hooked up to the worm
heres the summing up.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22624836-5006301,00.html
It wasn’t really a debate. These things never are. It was a contest of ideas. I watched the ABC. Rudd bolted in.
The closing said it all: Rudd talked about future, Howard about history. Bizarre theme for his closing.
Expect any poll ‘narrowing’ to stall.
Plus the coalition have goofed bigtime by exposing their normal bully boy tactics. And they beart up on the wrng one – ABC would have apologised. 9 will publicise.
The worm fiasco has legs.
This can hardly be called a debate. It was unmitigated lecturing, which was both boring to watch and disconnected from substantive discussion.
*THE* line of the night LOL ………
Howard finishes with a speech about the need to reinforce “Australian history” ( that would be Don Bradman, not the decimation of Aboriginal people and their culture).
if ever there was evidence that the man is a fossil that was it.
ESJ …….where ru?
That was possibly the worst set of closing remarks ever from Howard. His vision for Australia is the three Rs, tech colleges and his history of Australia. That should take care of all of our problems.
What about the images of Costello during the early stages of the debate. He was laughing at Rudd and at time I think he was heckling (Rudd made mention). A very low act I reckon whihc will nto win votes.
By the way, did anyone else feel uncomfortable for John re: need for a denture refit?
We have the worm in WA.
I would say 55 45 Rudd’s way but Costello’s smirk made me want to vomit
#
470
jen Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 9:33 pm
By the way, did anyone else feel uncomfortable for John re: need for a denture refit?
HaHa you got that too?
Listened to it on radio in the back room. My partner couldn’t stand to listen to Howard.
Rudd sounded like a PM ( or a future PM). Howard sounded like a pretender.
Fascinating contest. Best debate for years.
Rudd a devstating winner.
Hehe yes Jen… I thought his dentures were going to fall out @_@
I agree with the News commentary that Howard improved somewhat as the debate went on, and his question about Rudd’s populist posing on retail prices was very sound. But he blew it totally with that feeble closing. Overall he was trounced.
rudd picked up a few times that howard had not answered the question,
howard gets away with that behaviour in parliment but in a national telecast debate it looked bad
howard seemed flat with no conviction ( too much practise today )
i noticed rudd fired up with lots of “passionate “, evidently getting feedback from the political blogs
game over.
Incidentally, I thought the jounos did a great job. They didn’t give either side an easy run and were far gutsier than I expected.
In our lounge room, we wondered if the fact that Howard kept looking like he was about to cry was a tactic to garner the sympathy vote, or a reflection of how he was feeling.
I agree with Adam….. Howard’s closing statement was horrible
He didn’t look passionate about what he believed in………..
Rather he looked disturbed
but the debate is probably irrelevant to the election…. unless there are
more
Mark Latham and Kim Beasly also won the debate with Howard, but we all know the results of the last few elections
though I’m impressed by Rudd, I doubt this debate has any indication and/or influence the election on Nov.24th.
Did anyone notice how the worm went really underground whenever Howard starting touting his relationship with Bush?
Bush is an albatross around Howard’s neck …….
Why did Howard spend his closing 2 minutes talking about the 3 Rs’. it made him looks so old. Why wouldn’t he have hammered the economy/union line.
Fascinating stuff abouthe pulled Channel 9 line. They’ll give him heaps.
Rudd was so impressive. But, does the ordinary punter really care?
Howard’s closing remarks sounded like he was just making it up. He tried to get on message but sounded like he was clutching at straws. He’ll be much happier back in the land of the seven second sound bite.
Channel News just said Costello was reprimanded for interrupting the debate and then showed shots and Costello and Downer looking like naughty school boys.
nobody cares what they say. If it mattered what they said, they wouldn’t have waffled so damn much. They wanted to know how Kevin Rudd moves. They came to see Kevin dance. And, he is greased lightnin’.
I had thought Rudd might have challenged Howard to another debate, but it wasn’t to be. Any thoughts on whether it would have looked bad/arrogant to do so?
If newspoll is a further “narrowing” it may kill any momentum Rudd will get from this – but given the strong primary poll for the ALP in AC nielson, I think it should stay much the same as it has been…55-45
Interesting seeing some of the commentary on Sky – what is with the need for the media pundits to make this as close a contest as possible? A couple of Sky’s male commentators thought it was a ‘whisker close’ result only slightly in Rudd’s favour. They were clearly watching a different debate than the one I saw.
Sky even made mention of the worm. I love this country, where else in the world could you get over a million people to sit down for 90 minutes and watch a worm.
This must have been when David asked the people in the audience to hold their comments?
…. Don’t know how many caught it, but Rudd muttered under his breath at the same time David was talking words to the effect of “are you referring the Treasurer”? 
450
bill weller Says:
So does everyone on here believe that the worm was representative of the electorate?
Well, it ended up 65-35 to Rudd, which is not a million miles from the general poll results over the last several months.
Costello has form. He did exactly the same once to Michael Egan who was holding a press conference.
Gutless Pete sometimes suffers from the Heffernans. Tonight was one of those ocassions.
Why weren’t the journalists allowed to ask more questions?
Spears allowed the leaders to talk for 10-12 minutes and more for each answer/response! It was ridiculous.
Short sharp debate makes for interesting TV. I found myself tuning out quite a few times.
Ok, I’ll get in my thoughts
Unquestionable win to Rudd
BUT, Howard has lost every debate he has been in.
If Howard wanted to change perceptions, he didn’t. He probably re-inforced them
I wonder how much of “Wormgate” will get into the press (the fact the feed to the debate was pulled – by the government?)
PS Speers just said Rudd won “only just” Gees, this guy won’t quit…
Oh, and btw – it was early on, but I LOVED the way Rudd took Howard’s lamearsed record as treasurer and rammed it up him twice.
And good work on the reform legacy of Hawke/ Keating – and defence on the role on former ACTU leaders in leading that macro-economic reform in the 80s.
Howard’s not used to copping those in debates. Good to see.
And the winner is… Australian Idol:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22624945-29277,00.html
If Liberal HQ had anything to do with cutting Nine’s direct feed them that is just reprehensible.
Why on earth do TV stations need prime ministerial approval to put a graphic on their screen? Howard is trying to turn us into a Howard loving nanny state.
A very good result overall – Howard exposed the ugly reality that Rudd is simply the creature of the trade union movement. An out of touch, extremist, thuggish bunch of industrial cretins that will destroy Australia’s prosperity.
Well done JWH!
One criticism though – what in God’s name was the PM talking about at the end? Should have been focusing on who is best to maintain Australia’s economic prosperity combined with another shining of the bright light of the truth on the trade union/ALP nexus.
Spears on Sky commenting now – he thinks Rudd only ‘just won’ on points. He also thinks Howard looked relaxed and unruffled. He thinks it was an even contest. Honestly, talk about creative myth-making. I really wish the punditocracy would stop with their desperate need for a close contest.
The Worm Turns back the Tide
Phew ! No stumble from Rudd. In fact, Rudd may have grabbed control of the steering wheel again tonight. He needed to after getting creamed by JWH in the first week.
Now on to week 2-3; no major fumbles in these weeks and Rudd has a very good shot at winning this election. Howard started 10 points behind, I dont see him pulling back the gap beyond a national swing of 7 percent 2PP in the coming weeks.
Therefore, its prediction time for this armchair non-expert
I think Parramatta, Lindsay, Eden-Monaro, Dobell, Corangamite, Latrobe, Bonner, Moreton, Blair, Hasluck, Kingston, Makin, Wakefeild, Braddon, Bass and Solomon will give Labor the 16 seats required to govern after this election.
Labor may lose seats, but they will be covered by gains amongst McEwen, Bowman, Longman, Petrie, Stirling and Boothby. Others to watch will be Page, Paterson, Robertson, Herbert and Ryan.
I am excluding Bennelong, Wentworth, Longman, Deakin, Flynn and Sturt because I would be surprised if any of these went for one reason or another.
Unless something terribly wrong happens to the Labor brand over the coming weeks, I am sticking by a 25-27 seat net gain for Labor and 2 periods of government before the Coalition get another sniff at incumbency.
After a slow start Rudd smashed him, but he could have done more:
1. He should have tackled Howard’s straight-out lie about centralised wage fixing.
2. He should have tackled Howard’s ridiculous position that having all Labor state and Federal governments will “upset the checks and balances”. This is total and utter bullshit, Howard knows it, and he’s only relying on the fundamental ignorance of people about these sorts of things. Somebody needs to publicly correct him.
My abiding memory of this so-called debate will be that Howard’s vision for Australia is, apparently, “history”. Sums it all up really.
what about the last question from uhlmann. what a loser!
Howard’s one hit wonder tax bribe has been stopped in its tracks by big Kev. There’s nothing left. He’s finished in five weeks.
To put it bluntly: Rudd kicked Howard’s arse!
The Rodent came across as a bad tempered, irritable, snarky old grandpa, well past his used by date.
Kevin in comparison, although nervous, was much more positive and futuristic(for want of a better adjective).
Hilarious: the Rodent chooses the format and the moderator, and he still loses.
And hopefully Channel 9 really turns against Howard in the next 5 weeks.
That was Jeanette’s contribution to his preparation. One she travelled to Canberra for – even tho’ she can’t stand to be anywhere near where “that woman” has been.
The Soggy Biscuit Boys are now talking to each other on Sky News.
SBB-One thinks Kevin Rudd won, but only just on “points” mind you.
I guess SBB-Two gets to eat the biscuit.
The worst look of the night ( other than the PM fiddling with his front teeth) was the grinning, leering , schoolboyish Costello and Downer – a couple of village idiots. That will not play well in the loungerooms.
Is there any actual evidence that the Libs/the Government actually cut the line to Nine? I saw Ray Martin’s comments at the end, but I don’t think you could conclude anything from that.
Maybe it was a rodent gnawing the wire….
Howard came across like a person reminiscing about how life was really good in the old days. It was weird. It was mostly just like Rudd was a man showing what kind of PM he was, and Howard just looked like he wanted to go to bed. This is what the next five week will look like. Someone make a clever pun in relation to Kevin Rudd using the word ‘teflon’
I reckon there’s only about 0.5 % in winning debates – but chalk it up for Rudd.
I’ll also add that Speer’s was useless. I’d like to see a breakdown of the amount of time each person got to speak, it seemed like Howard couldn’t close his mouth. Then again, my whole family screaming at him to shut up at regular intervals may have twisted my impressions.
Glenn Milne has said Howard won on substance – he was in the audience
Rudd won because he didn’t get “knocked over”
He’s kidding isn’t he….
playing the libs bingo game with his mates
Grog (488) – are you Grog Boggoth from another forum of a rather… diminutive stature?
When people talk about winning on “point”, I wonder how big does a win need to be before it’s a “KO” – 70/30?, 75/25?
That said, every election debate win this far out will be on points – no one is going to lose an election by losing the debate, rather it affects the momentum of the campaign…
Complete thrashing. Well done Kevin Rudd. I can’t stop smiling.
WOW, you’ve discovered that the ALP is the political wing of the trade union movement. This has greatly improved your chances of passing year 8 politics.
Hahahahah if even Liberal hacks don’t know, then he has no chance of winning this election.
Interesting that Rudd was facing pretty much the Liberal front bench during the debate. Glen Milne also thinks Howard performed very well – especially on substance. He also thinks that Howard “got Kevin Rudd’s measure”. I hope the general media will actually report this debate outcome as it happened instead of this myth-making.
Gee, was Milne in the Labor or Liberal 200 guests?
Stunkrat 502#-Kev could have attacked more about centralised wage fixing but the average punter isn’t interested. They just want to know about job security and Kev has to maintain a positive, calm and safe ‘pair of hands’. He did enough whilst not scaring the sheep!
The poisoned dwarf has awarded it to Howard.
Holyhell – his vote counts the same as mine.
Says Howard “Won it on substance” – yeah, of a frigging history curriculum.
SirEggo, Glenn Milne is Rupert Murdochs sock puppet ….+ he’s a TOOL!!
Well Speers had to stop Howard’s last three or so answers short because he had given him too much time earlier in the debate.
He should’ve stopped him short earlier so he didn’t have such a huge lead.
Glenn Milne must have been in the bar drinking – says Howard won! What crap! David Speers and Glenn Milne have been shown for what they are – no idea about politics.
Just show how the media is so out of touch with what the electorate thinks!
I don’t think the worm “fiasco” will be an issue. After all, Channel 9 reprehensibly pirated the Sky News feed and it was well aware that the worm was against the rules.
Aussieguru01 523
Preaching to the Choir!!!!!!
Howard on substance? WTF?
Oh yes oh yes
:):) ……. just counting down the days now.
Milne and Speers – the Laurel and Hardy of the commentariat
More of an issue than the worm should be Costello’s disregard for the rules – not exactly conducting himself in a Prime Ministerial manner.
The poisoned dwarf has NO credibility.
Complete waste of time reading/ listening to anything coming from him or the GG.
Showing his true form.
Regarding the rodent’s claim that having labor governments at state and federal level will be bad for the checks and balances, why doesnt someone point out that the best example of this is the liberals controlling both houses
Centrelink has gone back out to $2.40 for the Coalition – from $2.15 this morning
WHAT? Since when do prime ministers determine what TVs show?
Provided TV stations comply with the Free TV code of conduct, prime ministers have NO role in determining what TV stations broadcast?
Where the hell are we, China? Saddam Hussein’s Iraq? Burma? North Korea?
My verdict.
Kevin Rudd – Answered the questions, was positive in his manner and tone, covered a range of subjects, appeared to have a good grasp of facts and figures.
Rudd showed a willingness to go on the attack over the issues of Economic history, my only cross for Rudd, he never appeared to offer a reason why he voted against certain measures.
John Howard – Sounded old, was aggressive and negative, harped on about previous ALP Govts and offered very little in terms of forward thinking.
Was cheeky to use Rudds meeting with Bush in light of Rudd and Bush agreeing not to disclose meeting, generally a disappointing performance by the PM.
Overall I was impressed with David Speers, and liked the format, what can I say about the worm.
To paraphrase Howard what favours will a Rudd Govt own the Worm.
A nice patch of moist dirt
Howard wont have won any votes out of tonight, and generally debates don’t enfluerence elections results, but with another interest rate rise coming and I keep hearing that a big set of ads are coming then this is really looking ugly.
Krudd buried the Toad; the band just wasn’t wide enough to accommodate Rudd’s positive feedback (and this was from a CH 9 audience!). JWH’s closer was a disaster, and he gave us some extraordinary facial ticks on the way through; has anybody told him to stop trawling his mouth with his tongue in a vain attempt to mop up excess spit? He’s better off spraying a bit than giving the appearance he’s adjusting a dental plate sans onkaparingas. On issues, appearance, and ease of response; Krudd by a country mile.
Isabella dreams:
Bob Hawke, Paul Keating, Isabella, who destroyed our prosperity?
Wasn’t that a thuggish unionist bullyboy interjecting or was it the treasurer?
Exactly right Swing Low. the momentum was the prize up for grabs tonight and I think Rudd took it back into the Labor camp, if only temporarily.
Howard lost the last 2 debates and quipped “Im glad the worm does not have a vote” after winning in 2004. One debate does not an election make, but it does give Rudd some breathing space and an open shot at grabbing the steering wheel again.
If Glenn Milne thinks Howie won the debate then he’s deaf, dumb and blind. He certainly got a hell of a lot more time.
Ecnocrat – no – I’m a newbie who has been desperate for a good blog since the sad absence of Matt Price’s work on The GG.
Kevin Rudd was similarly arrogant Ptobias.
Overall, it was a boring debate. Indeed, it was more of a lecture.
The PM has gone on to win after reassuring ALP debate victories, so it’s a non-event.
News hae a “who won” poll at http://www.news.com.au/0,,nsw,00.html
Results currently reflect Nine’s worm figures almost exactly
Good to see Centerlink diversifying into betting.
Is it possible to directly place your family tax benefit onto the 6th race and Randwick?
Oh goody, now Helen Dalley is invoking Latham’s almost-a-headbutt-handshake and tying this to the fact that Rudd pushed his microphones down before the debate started. (Apparently so he could make himself look taller on camera according to Alan Pease). This commentary is really getting quite entertaining.
495
SirEggo Says:
Unquestionable win to Rudd
BUT, Howard has lost every debate he has been in.
Yes, but this time he also has nearly a years worth of shocking poll numbers to contend with as well, which has never happened before.
Maybe the reason Howard banged clumsily on about the history thing at the end was that he was hoping people would look backwards rather than forwards, and he could get history to repeat itself.
But things have changed. It’s different this time around. And Howard knows it.
Sportingbet is starting to drift out as well – out to $2.30 now (was $2.20 yesterday)
Rudd had a big chance to regain the initiative tonight.
And he blew it – despite the fact that the PM was, in parts, pedestrian.
Costello would have destroyed Rudd if he was out there.
Too bad Kevin – get ready to see the Liberals and Nationals continue their march to victory on November 24. But don’t worry, those Kevin 07 shirts will be great for Liberal Party quiz nights and fundraisers.
Yep, Rudd’s an impressive debater. You don’t get to see this in question time. he did a nice come back to Howard on the Unions in Rudd’s cabinet. And Howard is a lawyer and Rudd is not a Union thingy.
Also did nicely on who he would owe favours to when he (Rudd) gets in…governing for all Australians…very statesman like.
What did Costello do?
Did he really interject?
Christ I didn’t think he would do that…. That’s low even for him.
BTW I saw him with a smirk on his face, let’s see his detrimental nickname is Captain Smirk, and he smirked.
Is he delusional or an idiot?
I think the line of questions that Howard asked Rudd is very telling.
It makes me wonder if they have a handle on him at all. Why ask him about a private conversation with Bush?
Do they *really* think Australian’s hold Howard’s relationship with Bush in a good light?
Generic Person @ 526: “I don’t think the worm “fiasco†will be an issue. After all, Channel 9 reprehensibly pirated the Sky News feed and it was well aware that the worm was against the rules.”
Here’s what Channel Nine’s director of news and current affairs John Westacott says: “I think it’s an editorial decision for the Nine Network, not for the leader of the Liberal Party what we put to air.
“I can only agree with [News Ltd chairman] John Hartigan in his excellent Andrew Olle lecture where he said that political interference in journalism is increasing, not diminishing. And this is a perfect example – the leader of the Liberal Party trying to dictate one of the key events in the election campaign.”
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/10/21/1192940897804.html
I’m with Mr Westacott on this.
oh, Isabella. I hope you’re getting paid for this.
Channel 9 hacx00rs. It was all a ploy by Howard to say that our broadband network is so good now that Ch 9 can pirate a feed from another tv network. Brilliant thinking by Howard. It negates the Broadband issue.
Also, my friend and I (both nurses) kept feeling that John looked decidedly unwell, and at one point we thought proceedings should be stopped to allow him to sit down. So, content aside, he really is looking unwell and that the pressure is too much. especially when he completelt effed up the comment about “15% of the private workforce are union officials” (meant union members)….
all in all – he should be allowed to go gently into the night.
Glenn, you tool, what about Howards twitch. No bias at all from Glenn is there?
Howard needed his front bench for support, no such problem for Rudd.
Rudd is Prime Minister material. Tonights debate showed it.
Milne…I didn’t think he could be a bigger tool…if your watching him now…..boy I’m wrong -sweaty lip and all!
Timbo 533#: Centrelink’s has changed it’s brief since I last looked ha ha
EXACTLY!
I can’t believe in a liberal democracy that it even needs to be said!
Someone asked before about what the ratings for tonights debate would likely be.
IMO going from what happened in my area, right through the roof.
I live in a high traffic area. No vehicles. Dead quiet like third state of origin night, one all, big decider. The ratings in this area at least, huge.
Rudd should launch his education revolution in full asap – he’s got the momentum back temporarily, so he should exploit it fully now.
Also, it’s time for the guerrilla tactics to end – bring out the negative advertising and start dropping the napalm on the Coalition!
You are out of your mind if you think Rudd blew his chance to take the initative back Glen, sorry Isabella, sorry..um whoever. Dream on.
Glen Milne is a peanut. He reckons Howard won. What a biased little vegemite he is.
Rudd was very impressive. He waffles a bit but looked every bit a leader.
Howard had his moments but at times looked snarly and agitated. What can he say though? We’ve known him for 11 years.
I suspect this debate will be forgotten in a week. However it may give Rudd some reinforcement after a poor first week.
Grog – no worries, and welcome to the mudpit..
No 553,
Lomandra, even if you agree with the Channel 9 editor on political interference, it does not justify Channel 9’s illegal rebroadcast of the Sky News feed.
Okay here is the definitive analysis:
Debate was boring as hell and sent most punters asleep, and from memory the Latham-Howard debate was more interesting.
Howard looked like he was about to cry in the first 30 minutes, and the worm was almost always in Rudd’s favour simply because Howard was soooo boring(Rudd was boring too but not Howard level boring)
The debate didn’t have enough passion from the two competitors, they both talked monotone talking points which added to the sleep fest.
The “feed” I assume Ray Martin was talking about was from Channel 9 cameras in Parliment House to the 60 minutes audience. Obviously without vision and sound feeds the audience have no idea which way the worm should turn. The first feed was cut, then the second feed… then 60 minutes audience got sky news feed.
Thats my 2 cents
What was wrong with Howard and his mouth?
He reminded me of those old people who have two sets of dentures (i.e. top and bottom) and the tongue movement they employ when some food gets caught under one of the plates.
It was very annoying.
Costello is an idiot!!
Too much time @ the tanning salon Milnesy!
Sir Eggo,
Glen Milne confirms on Sky that Costello said “Go Kevie”.
GP@566: I very much doubt it was an “illegal feed”. Sky and Channel 9 have arrangements already. Remember the same company that owns 9 owns 25% of foxtel.
But keep pushing that barrow.
The Punter’s Verdict on the Debate. Centrebet Says:
ALP: $1.58 (down from $1.71)
Coalition: $2.40 (up from 2.15)
Rudd won the debate.
How could Howard win on substance? Was he taking drugs or something? Howard was talking of his government’s record and tried to attack the Hawke/Keating years but Rudd came back with a king hit about Howard’s record as Treasurer. The final remarks for Howard was talking about the past, including taking things back 30 years, but Rudd was talking about setting a plan for the future, including the one which includes the end of the mining boom.
Oh, and if Adam is right about Janette writing Howard’s summing up, then it looks like she has had her time too.
How is Channel 9’s rebroadcast an illegal feed? They were always going to show the debate, it’s the fact that they used a “live” worm that the Coalition objected to…
Watch this turn into a debate on the right to free speech…
Hey,
Channel Nine just broadcast that Peter Costello has been “reprimanded” for interjections during the debate.
So who has the “glass jaw” and can’t cope with pressure then?
surely not our Treasurer?
The man the public would dearly love to elect as PM – but only the Liberal Party won’t let ‘em
Sorry Pete – you didn’t get to be in the Leader’s Debate. Though of course Howard needs you, just not just yet, maybe sometime well into the future, when the public have got over the indigestion of their disgust at your 11 years of smirk…
Comprehensive win to Rudd. Substance, Clarity, Passion, Ideas.
And, guess what…he’ll be around for the next 10 years
Unlike John, who having front-end loaded the next 2-3 interest rate rises (and whether rates go up next month is neither here nor there, they have to go up in the next few months, regardless of the latest spendathon – rates are the result of policy 6-9-12 months prior) will bugger off and not face the consequences of his profligacy when it all turns to shite
So if Labor are such bad economic managers, why are they always voted into clear up the economic mess left behind by the Conservatives…?
Typical Johnny Long Gone…whether its Rudd or Costello, they will have to clean up the crap he’s left behind: rising rates, no infrastructure, rising debt, low skills and education, rising temperatures, low tech…
Welcome folks to the 1950s economy – maybe good then. Pitiable in the 21st century
Poor de-skilled trash indeed
Sorry folks,
I’ve been on the last thread!!! My blogs there were old school, very funny and they amused me greatly. No one was listening though…
Pretty much sums up the JWH performance tonight…
I thought he did well enough to call it a draw and that, in itself should be significant
Kevin 07 should have delivered a knock out punch tonight
to be consistent with the polls, tonight should have been a knock out punch
A draw tonight means the contest is still open -
Did I hear right? Glen Glug Glug Milne gave it to the Toad? When push comes to shove (you know what I mean), that vertically challenged bile bag almost makes Shamaham look sober (but he would wouldn’t he?)
If it gets out that the government pulled the feed, will this hurt or help JWH?
Shouldn’t it hurt (resorting to dirty tricks)
The Poisoned Dwarf stays true to form: don’t forget his wife works for Crosby/Textor.
And WTF were Costello and Downer doing in the audience? I presume they had so much trouble finding 200 Liberals in Canberra to take the allotted tickets, so they had to bring in the Howard cabinet ministers and their families to compensate LOL
Milne should get along to his AA meeting!
“Glen Milne is a peanut. He reckons Howard won. What a biased little vegemite he is.”
Can we get one of the guys over at Crikey to push him over?
Sigh…. Hopefully this child never becomes P.M.
Milne knows a little bit more about Australian politics and Federal elections than the smug Kevin07 keyboard heroes that infest this discussion board.
Sorry, but you know it’s true.
Unfortunately you can’t see past Rudd’s supercilious grin and his meaningless platitudes.
Thinking Australians can.
It is illegal. To my knowledge, there was no rebroadcasting arrangement, especially on such short notice.
In any event, I believe there was no debate tonight. It was a boring lecture, lots of