A thread for you all to discuss the debate as it happens. If you don’t like the company round here, there’s a live chatroom at Larvatus Prodeo.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
A thread for you all to discuss the debate as it happens. If you don’t like the company round here, there’s a live chatroom at Larvatus Prodeo.
1,076 Comments
Tonights debate is about Rudd. If he sparkles, doesn’t get defensive with the panel, looks and sounds energetic, doesn’t gaffe, produces the odd decent on-liner – and finishes strongly then he will tell Australia that he is ready. We’re looking – this is your test.
Howard has won the toss and will have the final word.
I have a feeling Howard and Rudd will play it pretty conservative tonight.
However, surely in the back of Rudd’s mind is the thought that he could kill off Howard’s prime ministership tonight. A gaffe by Howard, with a good answer by Rudd could end Howard in the eyes of the voters.
I remember Howard in 1996 saying to Keating “the voters don’t believe you anymore”, it was a harsh comment, but there was some truth to it.
I wonder if Rudd will deliver the same sort of thing tonight.
The Prime Minister should go first. The Prime Minister has always gone first. Howard is CHICKEN!
LOL
Let’s hope for a bit of aggro tonight- we could all doze off by 9.00.
Kevin Rudd should not aim for any kind of knock-out punch. He should be respectful towards Howard. He should appear reassuring. Better to be boring than to try so hard he comes across as a prat.
Most swinging voters with little interest in politics will tune in for a few minutes at the beginning – perhaps flick across during the ads on Kath & Kim. What they need to see is the steady hand of a reasonably dull politician who appears to be on top of the facts, with the occasional dose of fresh ideas – along the lines of the laptop toolbox of the 21st century thing.
Also this would be a smart move for Rudd: Say to Howard “Look you have refused to debate me again during this campaign. But I now invite the guy who is really the LNP candidate for next PM – Peter Costello – to debate me. Will you allow him to do this?”
We have Teh Worm Live!
Where, PC?
The worm is skyrocketing with Rudd.
If this worm gets any higher, he’ll be arrested for holding prohibited substances
The worm fell as soon as Rudd mentioned Costello.
Channel 9
This is Nine showing the worm, yes?
The worm is going underground with Howard.
Howards sinking – someone give the worm some floaties.
He’s sinking… he’s sinking!
Thanks PC. I’ll have to wait two hours.
Like a good worm, it’s going underground while Howard is speaking
I love the worm!
Howard is not saying anything about what he’ll do. Complete contrast to Rudd, who listed a laundry load of actions he will take.
Howard also being negative now as well. Worm has hardly gone into the positive at all.
I think Howard’s problem is he is talking about the past.
Howard’s problem is that he’s out of ideas.
Everytime Howard mentioned unemployment, the worm tanked.
They might need to start working on a new cliche
Every time Howard attacks Rudd, the worm starts diving…
the worm is flatlining get out the defribulator
Can someone tell me how many drinks I have to have. I lost count of the number of times Howard said UNIONS.
Interesting that Rudd took on the economics rather than the industrial issue first.
If this were an AFL game, Rudd would be up by 10 goals, and it’s only the first quarter!
If the 9 worm audience keeps this up, they’ll need to get a room with Kevvie.
Again, then worm has peaked at it’s highest and simply cant go any higher!
the worm loves rudd…….
Rudd’s started well, but he seems a bit nervous.
Bad shot – the camera cuts to Costello and Downer smirking at Rudd, meanwhile the worm is going up.
Those clowns just dont get it.
It would be good to have a little box in the corner of the screen showing the Smirk in all his glory
The openings were interesting – Rudd attacked Howard over not having any plans, and laid out a bunch of them. Howard focussed entirely on the past actions, and attacked Rudd repeatedly for something he hadn’t said.
The worm likes broadband.
Good god the worm hates Howard. I can see why he was scared of it.
Who chose the audience which is operating the worms?
those cuts to Costello are poison for the Libs – the smirking git, not a good look!
Howard is too negative. He needs to go positive if he wants to win.
The worm goes south every time Howard starts to criticise Rudd.
As soon as Howard mentioned Costello, down went the worm again
Howards going as hard as he can and the Worm is neutral.
Rudd breaths and its goes over the 100% mark.
Where are the audience pulled from?
The MUA’s annual general meeting?
Howard is clearly a spent force, Rudd is the future
whoops the worm doesnt like Howard so far.
Has it been in positive territory at all when Howard has his mouth open?
scotty I saw that too! The worm is a bit distracting.
I think those smirks will see an appearance in some ads.
LMAO. The worm just collapsed when Howard mentioned Costello replacing him.
The worm also really really doesn’t like Howard’s negative attacks.
And holy hell it hates Costello. The worm just slammed into the ground when he talked about him.
Costello by Howards side through think and thin! LOL – just not at his dinner table.
The smirking of Peter Costello in the audience is not a good look.
The guy has gotta learn to control that.
Does anyone know how the worm audience was chosen?
Howard just doesn’t get it . You can’t win by being negative and talking about the past. He needs to go positive and talk about the future.
I’m impressed with Speers – he’s proving to be very impartial. I’m also convinced from this that Howard is much more popular than his front bench. He mentiones them, and the worm dives.
Adam – I tend to agree that the worm appears to be a bit dodgy, in that it goes positive almost no matter what Rudd says, and the reverse for Howard.
whats the big deal with howard mentioning twice now that he has his cheer squad wih him?
Has the scale used for the worm graphic been flattened vertically, otherwise the contrast would be even starker!
is it just me, or is Howard sounding desperate and defensive? not a good look for a supposed statesman…
Rudd has a serious memory for figures….
Go Kev get stuck right in!
Here’s a tip – turn the sound off and just watch the worm. It’s great!
200 invited by the Libs and 200 by Labor.
This is just too funny. That worm hates Howard.
How about having a centipede.
7 out of 10. Pure Gold.
For their next show, I think the Chaser needs to send Chas in a worm suit chasing after Rudd to hug him.
Astonishing – did Channel 9 just go to the local ALP branch meeting to scoop up a bunch of people?
200 invited by the Libs and 200 by Labor.
.
.
Acutually ignore that. That’s the audience in the Hall not at Channel Nine. Sorry.
Its a knockout to rudd, call in the trainers to carry Howard out.
Howard is incredibly shrill tonight -repeating negative ad hominem attacks and engaging in tired old cliches. He seems to be living up to his usual standards in televised debates
Rudd got off to a slow start but he’s really performing well now
What’s bad for Howard is that Rudds attack on Howard saying that 7 out of 10 in cabinet didnt want Howard to be there, the worm didnt drop from it’s high level.
That is bad, bad, bad for Howard
Dry econo-talk is bad for the worm on both sides. Services, Unions, the future, climate change is good for the worm. Anything Howards says is bad for the worm.
Go, Rudd, Go!!!
The wormers arent sucked in by all government being ALP
What the hell? Rudd attacks Howard’s time as treasurer, and the worm goes up?!
The Rudd answer about the union thing was well done. Howard’s response has had the worm marginally above zero, which is about as good as he’s managed.
# 50 barbara Says: October 21st, 2007 at 7:47 pm
By invite. 50% coalition/labor.
I lay odds that Janette come on stage and shoves Johnny off and takes over.
How about we apply the worm to journos questions – if the worm drops during the question, they get slimed?
How utterly ridiculous.
damn time difference. Debate not on Nine till 7:30 so I have to watch Sky. Therefore no worm
actually, read that wrong too. That was the hall audience.
Does anyone know how the audience controlling the worm was chosen?
The 9 audience would be swinging voters – that’s the way its usually worked
JWH’s tone is a bit harsh, Rudd more balanced. And JWH keeps hitting that microphone!
Good and clear response from Rudd.
Rudds worm is on VIAGRA!!!!!!
Woah… That tax refund went down well.
The worm needs oxygen at those altitudes.
I’m greatly relieved to hear that. I’m not seeing the worm, but it sound like Nine have stuffed it up again.
Kevin has pwned the worm!
Worm out of control again. Every time Rudd talks – he seems to dealing with issues that affect families whilst Howard is just so negative.
That worm will have an oxygen mask dropping out of the overhead cabinet soon
wtf is happening with the worm
howards on the nose
Rudd is constantly pushing the line that he’s been “across the country” and “talking to people”… He’s constantly saying this and thus reinforcing the perception that he is listening to the voters. It’s a very strong line to take and it’s winning the battle of the worm. Howard is not countering this approach and it’s going to cost him.
the channel 9 audience must be made up of Rudds family. It loves him.
Tha ALP tax plan is a winner if the worm is representative. Does anyone know if Crosby-Textor and the like do this sort of thing to roadtest their talking points? Because the disparity between the two of them with the worm-reaction is stunning.
If the worm is swinging voters, it’s behaving pretty much as the big polls, and the way Rudd has positioned himself suggests it should.
Worm’s only about 80% for rudd
LOL @ barbara
Don’t forget that Rudd is ahead and only needs a draw. Howard is behind and needs a win to create some momentum.
“80
red wombat Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Rudds worm is on VIAGRA!!!!!!”
That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. Im sure Therese will be pleased.
I think we need a larger scale for the worm – Rudd is bouncing off the roof!!
I can’t quite believe the worm.
It must be hard concentrating with the Smirk and Dolly in the front row.
“72
red wombat Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 7:52 pm
I lay odds that Janette come on stage and shoves Johnny off and takes over.”
Stop it, your killing me.
Looks like Grumpy Grampa turned up to debate Uncle Kev tonight. No wonder the worm is ambivalent or negative towards him.
Howard on monetary policy – the worm’s on mogodon!
Quick someone get some defib paddles. John Howard is in cardiac arrest according to Nine’s worm.
Similarly, Rudd might need some serious medication to scrape him off of the ceiling.
And so far we have only discussed economy!
17% interest rates just dont do what they used to as a cliche
the worm is ambivalent to the old 17% interest line…lol
Poor Janette. Howard just can’t get the worm up tonight.
When Howard speaks the worm flat lines. It not because they a re neutral it’s because they are asleep.
Howard has killed the worm is it dead?
It’s only an indication, not meant to be taken literally. I still say Howard’s problem is that he is being too negative and that’s why the worm is on a downer when he speaks.
These are marginal voters in charge of this thing aren’t they?
Let’s have a little balance here folks
Given how badly Howard’s attacks on Rudd have gone so far, I fear for the worm’s continued health when we get to the bit where the leaders question each other.
My god, Howard’s touching the 17% Keating/Hawke talking point, after Rudd already mentioned that it was 22% under Howard/Fraser.
Spears question asking for an apology for interest rates was ballsy. Howard’s claim that he accepts responsibility is just bulldust in it’s purest form.
Howard is full of shit. He believes in ministerial accountability????
Another perception from this debate, looking purely at the worm alone:
The audience in the channel nine studios is quite possibly mirroring the general public in that when Howard is speaking, they either don’t care and the worm stays around the zero mark, or they reject his attacks on Rudd.
When Rudd is speaking, the viewers like what they’re hearing, and the worm goes up. It’s very interesting to see this reaction live.
Mark, you’re right. The Wormers just aren’t reacting to Howard at all. No interest.
Great debate, Rudd is coming across very well.
Howard is out of ideas and tricks.
Can see why Howard did not want the worm, with Rudd it powers off for Australia’s future, with Howard its dive dive dive.
Rudd’s worm needs a space suit?
Howard is bereft of ideas and his message is falling on deaf ears.
The worm needs defibrilating. Intertest rates is killing it.
i love this worm, before rudd even opens his mouth it is on the 2nd top bar..
Someone resuscitate the worm!
Howards moment is coming…..wait for it – oooooooopppppsss!
“50
barbara Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Does anyone know how the worm audience was chosen?”
Howard’s Cabinet
charlie@105… thanks for that. I’m going to be lying awake tonight and twitching in horror at the thought.
I am a veterinary surgeon and I am expecting an emergency phone call about a worm that needs revival very soon (or sedation if Rudd is on)
Paul Kelly’s not convinced.. roflol
Go the worm!
A flatline is as good as downhill from Howard from Rudd. People don’t need to hate Howard to not vote for him. They just need to think he is no longer relevant.
Paul Kelly just threw a curveball at Howard, even the GG has turned on him!
Kina – LOL!
Charging…..
Clear!
*Thwap*
Howard’s problem is he comes across as a nasty person. A constant frown, contrasted to Kevin’s more positive facial expressions.
Objectively speaking, I’m quite impressed with Rudd tonight. He is usually very wooden, but he’s doing quite well. Again, a proviso that I think the debate’s are almost completely irrelevant in the general scheme of things.
I think the worm mainly indicates that people are fairly much sick of hearing the sound of Howard’s voice. Rudd is fresh young face. I suspect you cannot read too much into this very wide disparity. It’s a knee jerk reaction to the boring has-been versus the fresh face – but it far from necessarily reflects voting intentions.
OK I will try for some balance. Watching the ABC, without the worm, I think Howard is making his standard points perfectly competently. Before I get too carried away by the worm, I want to know how the Ch9 audience was recruited.
oops we crashed LP
What I was trying to say in 113 is that the audience is a microcosm of the electorate in that they’ve stopped listening to Howard.
He really appears droning, boring and carping by comparison to Rudd.
Paul Kelly questioning Howard now on his tax cuts and the effect on the economy.
Worm is just below neutral at best.
Is anyone keeping tabs on the number of times the phrase “working families” is uttered?
I know this might sound odd, but I really think Howard’s age is showing. His ‘ticker’ – as he used on Beazley – isn’t really there at all. He’s pausing so much that he sounds very unsure of himself except for when he’s being negative about Rudd or referring to the past.
Mr Speaker! Mr Speaker! I move that Mr Kelly no longer be heard!
That hand waving is a bit distracting on TV – probably quite effective for the auditorium, but 200 committed voters there.
barbara @ 123. As a psychiatrist I think you might also want to pack some Prozac for JWH and Lithium for KR.
Most marginal seat voters are about to switch over to Kath & Kim.
Not having the protection of a Speaker and having to actually answer questions is exposing him as an inadequate debater.
Rudd could start reciting the dictionary and the worm would move up
the worms hanging ten
Super H is looking uncomfortable !
Rudd should stick to the positives.
Better tell that worm to stop what it’s doing to Rudd’s leg; Howard’s feeling left out.
In case you missed it earlier today Rudd promised tax cuts for all worm australians, you can see it really paying off for Labor now.
Ok. Now I know why the Libs didn’t want the worm. They focus grouped it and realised that Rudd could get away with bagging Howard. Now the media know. They will go on the attack as well. Now the public and Labor supporters know the morale boost will be immense.
Dear god – Howard’s line that he wouldn’t ever consider re-evaluating the tax cuts is handing the ALP a great club.
I just don’t understand how it is that the wormers hate Howard going negative, but love it when Rudd goes negative. I wonder if it’s a tone thing – Howard really does sound like Grandpa Simpson.
LTEP – I agree, Howard looks decidedly shifty when listening to questions. No confidence, he will become more rattled as this debate goes on.
I know I said it before, but Rudd’s memory for figures is very, very strong.
Rudd is on fire. Absolutely blitzing. Must have had a good night’s sleep and a nice relaxing day fill of cramming.
Mr Grumble-bum.
he’s losing his temper and Ruddy is cool as cucumber!! oh yeah baby
H is loosing it!
As Ruddy said – we should ALL be friends of the worm. And I am now!
No wonder JWH only wanted the one and sooooo early. THerein the rub – does it mean much? Better wait till the end tho
Howard is having a whinge already
Ooh… a little bit of biffo about the OECD literature…
Howard’s crying crocodile tears now! He’ll take his bat and ball and go home shortly – what a sook he is.
When Howard mentioned the Unions funding to the ALP why didn’t Rudd mention:
EB
Lord Michael Ashcrofts $1million in 2004
Pratts monies
67,000! Love it. Rudd is so hot right now.
Finally. A Labor leader who gives credit to Bob Hawke and Paul Keating. Hoorah!
GReat Hawke Keating economic reform!!!!!!
Stick it to him Kevvie
agreed AnthonyL
About bloody time. Thankyou Kevin, for finally doing something to reclaim Labor’s economic legacy.
Typical- Costello barracking fom the sidelines. He cant help himself.
FFS union thing and balance, what twaddle
Kel is romancing Kath on the kitchen table.
Costello is a classic. He’d be more fun to watch that Grumble Bum Howard.
Costello, barracking for which one?
There is a bit of a lift from 0 when Howard starts slamming unions, which might explain why he keeps mention it
I think Costello is cheering for Rudd.
Rudd is actually doing very well highlighting the positive aspects of Labor’s economic record in government -it has taken some of the sting out of Howard’s arguments on economic issues
LOL-now Howard’s returned to the 70% trade unions representation in the Labor federal cabinet. Is he really that desperate to show that he’s out of new arguments and ideas?
Oh. Now workchoices has “balance”. Ha!
I hope howard keeps talking about Work Choices.
Sky Fall In! Now who needs a bingo card?
Workchoices, quick the worm needs an ambulance.
The worm has spoken-Howard has no credibility on anything.
Johnnie’s sky is falling in right now …
Has the worm a plastic covering?
Workchoices not so good for Howard.
Does anybody know how many jobs are created ‘normally’ (ie, prior to Workchoices, in the same period of time?)
I had to go and take a leak. What did $weetie do?
IR reform gives Howard’s worm brewer’s droop or a flatline
Good one Laurie remind him of his core and non-core promises!
Howard is getting grumpier and grumpier, he butts in instead of waiting his turn as well.
The Lib’s IR policy has no traction at all for the mug punter, it just an outright negative for them…..bring on those anti-WC ads!
The worm just doesn’t care about what Howard says – has it got further the one bar into positive territory at any point in the night?
Howard’s pissy moment over the OECD really does show the difference between Question Time and normal human behaviour. That shot would have gone down fine in QT, but looked awful in this context.
In all seriousness, has Howard actually mentioned any future plans at all, aside from the tax cuts?
Howard is taking a hell of a battering. The questions are spun against him.
Howard looks so shifty and the worm is giving him a belting.
Are we actually getting lectured by Howard “You there watching this…” Wow! A new low.
the worm confirms
worstchoices stinks
I’m surprised that the worm seems neutral when Howard talks WorkChoices… no, I spoke too soon.
The worm is flatlining for Howard.
Go Laurie give it to Howard
No Iraq questions yet.
I’m calling it. Howard looses his cool. Howard loses his cool. Will be the headlines tomorrow. I wish for “Captain Grumpy!” but don’t think it’ll happen. It would in the UK.
I will never hear a bad word against Laurie Oakes or Paul Kelly again – neither can be snowed, and they’re both capable if dishing it out to any side. Plus a whiff of blood in the water really gets them going …
Howard – glass jaw
Thats right Kev- Howard has been rabbiting on and on and on.
The worm is being a bit unrealistic now. It just went up as soon as Rudd opened his mouth.
“My mate joe” aka Shrek.
Oops I meant Howard loses debate. And. Howard loses cool. Will be the headlines.
Sweet Jesus, the worm is gonna need oxygen. It’s in the stratoshpere!
I didn’t think we had public executions in Oz any more …
Climate debate will be fun.
Excellent Rudd answer on WC2 under Howard/Costello
Rudd is not doing as well as he should be on the industrial relations/work choices question -he sounded slightly garbled and hesitant in his opening lines. He needs to come across more strongly on this issue. Still a good performance by him but not as good as it could be
Hpward keeps going on about unions, and he lost his temper. I’ve never seen a more one sided result.so far.
Rudd should blow his nose. Looks like its running.
Its gotta be at least 70:30 on the worm alone.
Why should he? It worked fine in 1977.
And what did Cossie do in the debate??
WC should be a no brainer for Rudd
Wrong, its an 8% increase on 90 levels
Don’t lose your composure, Kev.
I think the worm’s insta-love for Rudd is just telling us that the worm-drivers want to hear from him. They’re just not interested in hearing further from Howard. This is a bad sign – Howard needs to get people to pay attention to him to recover in the polls.
LOL chatroom @ Larvatus is struggling
I think Kevvie is getting tired.
He’s starting to fluff a little…
but he corrected himself. phew!
The Media will probaly jump the Titanic tommorrow, they really dont want to be associated with a losing candidate.
Kev’s handing Howard’s head to him here.
Thank God he credited the unions, Keating, Hawke and mentioned Howard as treasurer.
hmmmm Hartcher question on global warning was a good one. he stumbled but recovered well.
Albert: Cossie was making some sort of off the cuff comments in the peanut gallery. Again, the sort of thing you can get away with in the sheltered workshop of parliament, but not in front of real humans.
Wow the worm is alive!
I think it’s pretty smart for Rudd to be sinking the boot into Howard, whilst remaining positive, because it serves to highlight their differences, thereby reducing the credibility of charges of ‘me-too-ism’.
Good reply to Paul Kelly
Wooah. Someone’s hijacked the worm. Nope. Flatlining again. I think someone must have got their dial stuck.
490 parts per million CO2–what detail!
Keating accused one of his colleagues of swallowing a f%$##% dictionary. Kevvy’s swallowed climate change science books
i’m amazed at hwo smart rudd is,….so may facts and he speaks on a very broad range of issues…while howard speaks more basically and with no real bits of information just ercciting their usal talking points
i think the worms a lie detector
High worm response when Howard admits global warming.
But drops to 0 when he starts talking about their action.
hahaha gusface you’re right good call
Geez. Even the word pensioners doesn’t get him a lift.
# 189 Michael Says: October 21st, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I’m surprised at their balance.
I think Rudd has work to do on climate.
Stumbles… slight recovery. General estimates are about 80% GHG reduction by 2060 for developed countries, allowing for a modest rise from developing countries. But Rudd still does well
worm is alive!
Fund for climate change in 2011, bit late Mr Howard?
from SMH..
Channel Nine added the “worm” to its broadcast of the elction debate last night – breaking conditions laid down by the Government not to do so.
It did not tell either political party it was planning to do so. The worm measured the response from 90 uncommitted voters in a Channel Nine studio in Sydney watching the debate.
Nine’s direct feed of the broadcast live from the Great Hall at Parliament House in Canberra was cut, but it was still able to show the debate and the worm by using a backup feed.
The backup feed was also cut, forcing Nine to re-broadcast the coverage from Sky News.
a link for Larvatus ?
Not one question about Iraq or Health yet.
Howard sounds like a bumbling dinosaur on climate change and his befuddled attacks on Rudd on the issue are falling flat
Ah! Here comes the cricket analogy -he really does sing from one predictable songbook
Kina – its at the top. don’t bother
Oops PM is in trouble, plan B, start throwing around more money, how cynical.
Oooh – climate change policy announcement from JWH … we’ll do something about it in 4 years …
“Mr. Howard we need to move on” – truer words never spoken.
The worm started out positive for Howard’s climate change response, got a whole 2 bars into positive. Then off into the negative and back again. Still his best reaction from the worm.
The new climate fund Howard just announced – I wonder if he just made it up now? Shoulda had a reaction shot of Costello crying.
And Howard needs to get some discipline – talking over the moderator looks terrible.
Now Dubbya gets a mention. Not looking good for JWH
That is a lie China said the proper process for Climate Change is Kyoto and not the APEC 6.
Start talking in mandarin Ruddy!
I thought climate change was a -ve for Howard, the worm likes it
Sorry but I’ve lost faith in the worm. It just jumps no matter what Rudd says. Rudd is winning the debate but not as easily as the worm suggests.
The worm jumps up as soon as Rudd starts to speak. People want to hear what he has to say. Reverse for Howard but he has had a few minor lifts.
I’m very suspicious of the worm.
Rudd started talking saying “Mr Howard..” and it had already hit the roof.
hmm
Keeping talking about GWB.
“Nuclear Reactors out the back door”… love it (and into your backyard lol)
Unsurprisingly, Bush a negative for Howard
wow the worm is digging a trench now,
The Great Helmsman can change Dubya’s mind on climate change…uh, not according to the worm.
The worm has gone to hell… oops
I am impressed and pleased with the balance of the moderator and the panel so far.
And Rudd is doing considerably better than Howard. (I am not watching Ch 9, so the worm don’t count for me.)
Debate goes nuclear, why didnt Howard bring up this, when talking about climate change?
Very clever of Peter Hartcher to mention George Bush. The worm fell through the floor the moment the name came up!
Holy crap, that worm doesn’t want anything to do with the Coalition on Climate Change, and Bush seems to be a -50 point handicap right off the bat.
Bush won’t do a thing and Howard knows it – it will only happen if Democrats win in 2008.
Wow.
Howard didn’t rebut the nuclear reactor thing… Thats such a potential poison I can’t believe he didn’t say something.
Especially since he bit on the OECD report thing.
Yr buddy dubya can’t save you now
Save the lips service Howard…Climate change is more than window dressing at APEC!
Does the worm start again for Rudd or Howard from where it left off after they have spoken.
Wow – points for bravery to Channel 9 for running the worm anyway. I wonder what revenge the Libs will take on them?
And while Howard’s climate stuff produced a good worm result, Rudd’s was stratospheric.
Based on the reaction from the worm, the US is worm-poison. The ALP should just run an ad of a picture of Howard and Bush.
Credit where it’s due. David Speers is doing a very good job. Controlled, balanced, neutral, fair.
not watching, just reading the comments.
most entertaining bit
seems howards worm is flater than hockeys cushion
here we go howard in faux statesman mode- give us a break
What the hell was that John?
yawn.
I think I saw the Howard twitch…..feeling the pressure for sure.
I hope there is a doctor standing by …
sounds like Howard will need a stretcher
Howard much more relaxed and less hectoring, but he’s still waving his arms around too much. Optimistic words on freedom and fighting terrorism get a good response from the worm. The word Iraq is a negative though.
Speers has pleasantly surprised me tonight. Credit where it’s due indeed.
Oh no he’s onto Bali, “I will never surrender…”
Hatred of free society…hate our way of life… the usual Bushovic crap.
(They hate our foreign policy, Mr Howard)
# 268 Flash Says: October 21st, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Props to Speers. He’s doing a great job.
this worm can’t be serious – seems that it is a popularity poll and no one is listening to what either of them is saying!
Good fun as they both weasel about without saying anything!
Dodging Iraq question – very obvious and very bad.
Concise, clear and calm response from Mr Rudd. That should be Howard’s territory.
Concur on Speers’ performance – very balanced and impartial
By the looks of the worm, there goes Howards terrorism Tampa-esq scare
John Howard…_ Dubya’s sock puppet!
I dont have tv here – but reading this is more entertaining
Rudd owning Iraq and Terrorism. They like Howard, they like him more.
It is sad. Winston is sticking to the key lines and themes. Usually a safe bet, but they are so baaaaad. He just doesn’t get it anymore.
Answer the friggin question Howard!
Speers beats Ray Martin. I hope Rudd asks himself a question when its time.
Terrorism ra-ra = a positive.
Talking about Iraq = wormdeath.
And again the worm-drivers just love hearing from Rudd on the subject.
I’m looking forward to seeing Alexander having a massive tanty about Channel 9. I believe he’s designated tanty-chucker now?
stereotypical worm – always leans Labor/left
What I want to know is why Howard was acting like he was about to cry and got flustered earlier on.
This is a slaughter. Rudd looks and sounds like a Prime Minister.
Goodness I love that worm. May Channel 9 make a profit this year for putting it up!
As long as Howard’s ar#e points to the ground he isn’t going to do another debate.
Who needs to watch the debate, this blog is great!
howard just lloks grumpy and not poistive, hwo can u have a man who is so negative lead teh country?………i want positive thoughs form my leadres
Props to the wormites for getting the difference between ground troops and regional naval forces.
If JwH is this grumpy come question time this thing will turn into a blood bath.
What I want to know is why Howard was acting like he was about to cry and got flustered earlier on.
Indeed. Howard’s voice has nearly broken several times throughout the debate.
Worm likes nuance on Iraq, doesn’t like black or white.
It is no irrefutable that Howard made a grave mistake by agreeing to any debate at all. Even just one – five weeks out from polling day.
Janette start packing your bags, you are on notice from the voting public, your lease expires on 24/11/2007 and we wont be renewing it.
On the other hand, Crosby-Textor just got a massive massive amount of free research from the worm. Unfortunately nothing good.
Rudd has, in my opinion, has performed pretty well on most issues so far. Struggled a bit on environment, nervous at beginning but has excellent opening remarks – future, vision. Howard has been a dog’s breakfast. He performed better on environment than I thought and alot worse on security (so far). He’s a mess.
No speaker to protect him, flusters him – pity I’m not getting a chance to see whether Costello still has a smirk on his face.
Howard is on the backfoot he’s been forced to make at least 2 major policy announcements tonight. One about Climate Change fund and now about reviewing troops in Iraq.
“What I want to know is why Howard was acting like he was about to cry and got flustered earlier on.”
Give Ratty a break – he’s nearly 70 after all.
Speers keeps telling Howard to STFU and stop rambling like some demented old codger.
Not a good look.
Whoa Uhlmann gets nasty
Howard needs to stick to talk back radio.
Where is Glen?
Interesting that the only thing Howard marginally scored on was Climate Change (maybe the balanced Ministry argument).
I wonder if Rudd running short on answers is a tactic?
It’s certainly adding to a mild impression of Howard rambling.
He can even score on being against the death penalty!
God I wish the debate actually had an effect on the election
308
Did Howard give Australians a break, he is getting what he deserves,
he sowed he reaps it.
Rudd has been spectacular.
WOW. Rudd just got thrown some justified hard/attack questions. He’s hit his stride. Even managed to highlight consistency between both parties ideology on death penalty.
Questioning each other is going to be a word of fun.
Spears bringing up reconciliation = huge props to the man.
No questions on health David. Why move on to reconciliation first?
Yes it’s happened several times tonight Possum but Howard does have hearing problems. I wonder if Ulhmann will give it to Howard on reconciliation?
I’m sowwy!
There goes a few thousand votes in North Sydney and Goldstein
317
“he sowed it he reaps it”
Rudd’s so passionate.
I like him, that’s what I look forward from a leader of Australia
Howard can’t sustain his anti-sorry stance anymore. He just sounds silly. But the worm likes it??? go figure. Mal Brough is a vote winner though.
So he can’t say sorry, but he can say “sorry”?
excellent – sorry doesn’t mean an apology!
Guess this will be another liberal policy labour adopts!
Think we need a third option here!
He was on a role with reconciliation till he started talking about his team.
too little too late Mr Howard.
Ulhmann is a Howard stooge. No chance.
Howard’s justification for not issuing an apology by contrasting it with the reaction he would give to the death of a friend is just bizarre.
# 312 barbara Says: October 21st, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Probably in the hall.
He’s the president of the young liberals after all…
barbara @ 312, what’s the betting that The Staffer Sometimes Known As Glen is sitting in the audience, head in hands and lump in throat?
Masterful response from Rudd on reconciliation.
Build a bridge Mr Rudd.
The worm loved him not saying sorry, weird.
You realize, if tomorrows headlines are a win to Rudd on the debate AND a positive Newspoll for Labor, the Liberals campaign is going to have a bad, bad week.
That bridge building metaphor for reconciliation was pure gold… inspirational stuff…
The reconciliation response from Rudd was masterful.
adrian, I emailed Uhlmann my full correspondence with the ABC concerning him three weeks ago. Received a reply thanking me for my interest.
Debate is going well for Howard, isn’t it!
cheers,
Alan H
I havn’t seen a worm all night, while watching the ABC, but while I was tense beforehand about the outcome, I would say that each issue has either been a clear win for Mr Rudd or a draw. I look forward to tomorrow’s press write-ups with great interest.
The ‘bridge building’ was an excellent stance from Rudd.
sorry #335 for stealing your thunder – great minds think alike
Rudd’s IR policy – A bridge too far!
Rudd’s Reconciliation policy – Building a bridge!
Rudd’s Housing Policy? – Under a bridge downtown?
Rudd is absolutely brilliant tonight! I am impressed x 100.
I don’t get these direct questions. Too polite.
Rudd is coming across as pleasant and warm..
Kev’s done a BIG touch down!
AnthonyL, remember not to be tricky with policies. Downer learnt that lesson – things that batter. But I definately endorse your suggestion for the first too.
Left-right-knockout from Rudd.
Excellent work by Rudd – interest rate rises, Workchoices, Iraq – reinforces the message.
Howard is trying to wrap himself in the flag. What a scoundrel!
ohh Grumble Bun is back.
pants on fire …
Hiding behind the armed forces! Not good
What was Mr Howard thinking of when he asked Mr Rudd about Mr Rudd’s conversation with GWB on climate change? A real full toss ripe for hitting to the boundary. Duly dispatched.
Howard’s looked like he does not want to be there for about an hour.
Fingers crossed, Mr Rudd asks himself a question.
The worm doesn’t think people will believe it
I think John is going to cry. I’m feeling a bit sad for him.
Howard “people will believe it”…..worm dives….hahaha
Howard talks about GWB and is hated, Rudd talks about him and the worm starts humping his leg.
God that first question from Howard to Rudd was a wasted opportunity for Howard. I restate again my earlier point – this is the sort of thing you get away with in Question Time. It was a dumb question and trivial to smack out of the park.
I’m guessing one of the words that will be used about Howard tonight is “testy”.
I wonder if Channel 9 will make the raw worm data available? It’d be like the highest grade of Possum Crack.
I just saw Dubyas hand up Howard’s behind…what a sock puppet!
Good god, the worm hates Howard even when he’s just asking a question?
Howard is cactus. Rudd has won this hands down, the longer it’s gone the worse Howard’s performance. Great closing onslaught from Rudd.
Labor’s odds with the bookies have shortened with Centrebet during the course of this debate from $1.71 to $1.60. The first turnaround since the election was called. Money talks.
Howard’s brittle. He’s lost his temper three times and the worm dived. His questions to Rudd are just dumb. He keeps inviting him to speak to his strengths.
shanahans latest headline
‘Howard nearly wins debate’
Rudd is the clear winner. Howard just came across as yesterday’s man.
Nice mention of Queensland. Everyone have a shot.
Libs me-too me-too! glad you finally made this point Kevvie!
Rudd can’t agree to the rules accepted by his Party Secretary!
I can’t believe how poor the calibre of Howard’s questions were – wasted opportunities for him. Allowed Rudd to hammer home his strengths. They really shouldn’t have tried the Republican tactic of trying to turn a weakness into a strength in 90 minutes. Dumb.
@368
I think its because the Lib’s really believed he didn’t have answers to the questions!
Australian all let us rejoice for we are Howard free.
Rudd the Dudd, this debate has proved it.
Yup. Rudd is a clear winner.
Howard came across as a dinosaur.
They’re trying to give him a good send off. But alas the worm is not for a-turning (ref M. Thatcher).
Howard believes in the Australina people.
Ah the 50’s education plan
Did Howie just say we could do ok without him?
Rudd sounded too earnest in his closing. Howard sounded exhausted. And like he’d memorised it. Did they even talk about education? weird closing remarks.
strong finish for Howard… he’s much better at set pieces than he is at debating
I would rather take a licking in a television studio than the great hall. I wonder why Howard chose it.
Oh dear back on the culture wars – this won’t go down well.
Here a narrative of history,,,super H looses the debate & the Election!
The tone of Howard’s closing summary sounded like a concession speech.
The only 2 topics Howard got any real traction on tonight was Climate Change and Education – both mother topics and therefore Labor. So no good news there.
yeah, howard finished stronger but what a bad start.
AShamed of your Australian story, Mr Howard, cos you’re living in the 1950s still.
THE WORM HAS SPOKEN and I think it said “Men and Women of Australia, It’s Time.”
I thought it was a completely BIZARRE finish by Howard. He talked about an issue that was Rudd’s. How very weird.
Very weak close by Howard – reactionary and backward-looking
Ray Martin just said the worm was censored.
3 R’s, woodwork shop, & Capt Cook – now THAT’s an education revolution, go Johnny
Terrible close by Howard. Sticking out the culture wars to close? What was he thinking?
Was there a vote in this for super H?
If the kids need to know about history than can google it on Rudds new laptops
Was Ray Martin saying that the feed was pulled by a nasty Liberal?
The Senator just briefed us,
he was very happy with David Spears and Chris Uhlmann’s objectivity and the structure of the debate. Overall a draw.
Howard’s closing was terrible. What a wasted opportunity for him… does he really think people will be basing their vote on history curriculum?
The big story:
Worm flogs Howard, someone tries to censor the worm…
Ray Martin just said the worm was pulled , inferring by the govt organisers. Worth watching Ch9 for a while now, just to see the lovely Annabel Crabbe.
I didn’t get that. What did he mean?
in which parallel universe ES?
So that’s why Glen isn’t on line. He was sabotaging the worm.
Dear oh dear – being as fair-minded as I can, that was an AWFUL closing speech. He undid any good some of his earlier shots may have achieved. It amounted to saying “Let’s go back to the way things were when I was young”, and reinforced the view that he is just a reactionary who fears change. VERY ill-advised. He should have banged the union domiantion drum again in his closing speech.
Annabel Crabb, What disgracefull bias.
Hi ESJ,
take off those beer goggles & have an alka-selza. Ruddy trump it!
Ray Martin has called it for Kevvie. Game over!
The Worm hates Costello.
Ch9 lost the link for a while, Martin suggests the plug was pulled by the organisers.
Nothing like trying to spruik up nationalism/patriotism to boost your campaign when you’ve got nothing else new or interesting to offer.
I liked Martin’s comments about the worm being censored -”so much for freedom of political speech”. Priceless!
Even Sky is giving the debate to Rudd by a “clear margin”.
Still everyone, let’s remember – Howard has been widely perceived to have lost every debate as PM – but he’s won the bloody elections!!!
The ABC said quite flatly that the government pulled the plug on Ch9 because they were using the worm. This will look DREADFUL in tomorrow’s press.
I’m not ashamed of Australia, I am ashamed of what Howard has done, I wish Howard hadn’t dragged our international reputation through the mud.
I wonder if we’ll find out who yanked the feeds.
I predicted that Rudd would cream Howard. Howard was whipped and blended as well!
The Liberals Cheated. And they still lost.
Can you believe that Howard is planning on setting up a fund to subsidise air conditioners as part of his climate change policy??
Listen to Crabbe try and hand the debate to Howard! Unbelievable. Insinuating that it was Rudd paying lipservice to issues without providing plans and Howard pressing him on that. sheesh.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralian/comments/leaders_debate/
Let’s cut the biased analysis, Crabbe. Show us the worm stats, not the spin.
After 30 minutes why didn’t someone from the Libs throw a “white towel” on stage. Howard was trashed!
25% to 65% according to the worm.
Worm verdict
Rudd – 65 vs Howard – 29
Howard got creamed-big time. The worm has turned.
29:65 a clear victory for Rudd.
bahaha! 9 ran the worm anyway – and Howard tanked for 90 mins!! Audience awarded it 65-29 to Rudd (6 undecided)
My view: Rudd stumbled once or twice, but Howard ramlbed and bored more.
Rudd nailed him (eventually) on climate, and comprehensively on Dorkchoices.
Another useless phone poll coming up.
The Worm says Rudd won the debate 65-29.
And yes, I thought Annabelle Crabb’s commentary was rather uninsightful.
The worm says 69/25 to Rudd. Howard’s a consistent loser.
Annabelle’s commentary was an exercise in trying to walk across a backyard full of Labradors and not step in a dog turd…
Annabelle Crabbe exists to be light and fluffy. Political puff pieces.
I liked the subliminal message in “Mr. Howard we need to move on”.
Though I wonder how many actually watched the debate? I know my neighbours didn’t; not enough car chases or explosions…
I’d be interested to know the ratings – how many people actually saw it?
#433: But he is a consistent winner where it actually counts. As he has shown, winning a debate does not win you government.
Annabel is a closet Howard supporter. That’s her piccie gone off the wall.
A cardboard cutout with a tape recording strapped to the back would have won this debate for Mr Rudd.
Howard needs a Bex and a good lie down.
Even for those who didn’t see, if the stories tomorrow are “Rudd wins debate” and “Libs censor worm” that will be a big plus for Labor.
the quanta of difference in the worm between the two speakers was bollocks..
normalise the worm around zero and lets see what the key issues were….
Adam: Me too, especially those who decided to watch Ch 9 because it had the worm. I want to see Howard attacking 9 tomorrow for breaking the rules.
If Newspoll is good for Howard, I suspect that it may be released early to drown out the debate analysis.
Debate still not due to start on Nine in Perth for 10 minutes. Will be interesting to see if we still get the worm for the period it was showing.
Where’s Glen? Did you notice the shot of Costello five minutes into the debate. The SMIRK was absolutely PERFECT. Hilarious, pure gold!
Well done Mr Rudd.
HAHA
The worm was turned up to 11 tonight for the Ruddster.
Listened to it on the radio, read the running commentary from pollbludger, thanks for the entertainment.
The worm seemed to re-start where it previously ended for each speaker.
So does everyone on here believe that the worm was representative of the electorate?
An awfully conducted debate.
I concede Howard’s defeat, but so much for free-flowing discussion.
More like longwinded rhetoric.
I think the worm may have ‘exaggerated’ a bit but it was broadly in line with an objective view of the relative performances
That depends on how Ch9 recruited the audience, which I don’t know
The worm was on the screen for the entire debate (9 Adelaide). But they seamlessly switched feeds between a dedicated 9 feed, and one from Sky News.
Wow, lots of comments! I stopped commenting here at about the 40 minute mark so I could focus on the debate.
One interesting aspect of this debate I think is that the worm will give Rudd and his team an idea of what the voters not only like to hear from him, but also what they don’t like to hear from Howard.
It might seem obvious to say that, but it’s important to get that feedback on how Rudd’s message is being perceived, and to get it while there’s still 5 weeks left in the campaign. Might be a mistake from Howard to have the debate so early in the campaign in that respect.
Crabbe is not biased, cut the crap. As a former Liberal Party member, who has voted ALP since 2001, I cannot wait untill Howard is defeated at the next election. At least then the Liberal Party might actually be able to rebuild itself and stand for something.
Watched it on the ABC. What a shellacking. Rudd just tore Howard a new ar**hole.
And it was all televised live.
Janette had better start packing.
#450
bill weller Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 9:22 pm
So does everyone on here believe that the worm was representative of the electorate?,
Not really Bill,but it was fun to watch.I thought Mr Rudd won the debate.
Now we know why Howard insisted on only one debate, and as early as possible. He will need the five weeks to recover from the roasting he is going to get tomorrow, not just over the debate but over trying to suppress the worm. Whose bright idea was that?
Sorry if this is a bit late coming in but I didn’t have access to a computer while the debate was running …..
The worm was being fed by the audience in Channel 9’s studios, they broadcast it in place of the 60 minutes show tonight. I don’t recall how many that they had in the studio nor how they were chosen. The 200 + invited by Libs and Labor were in the Great Hall where the debate actually happened **BUT** they were not the people hooked up to the worm
heres the summing up.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22624836-5006301,00.html
It wasn’t really a debate. These things never are. It was a contest of ideas. I watched the ABC. Rudd bolted in.
The closing said it all: Rudd talked about future, Howard about history. Bizarre theme for his closing.
Expect any poll ‘narrowing’ to stall.
Plus the coalition have goofed bigtime by exposing their normal bully boy tactics. And they beart up on the wrng one – ABC would have apologised. 9 will publicise.
The worm fiasco has legs.
This can hardly be called a debate. It was unmitigated lecturing, which was both boring to watch and disconnected from substantive discussion.
*THE* line of the night LOL ………
Howard finishes with a speech about the need to reinforce “Australian history” ( that would be Don Bradman, not the decimation of Aboriginal people and their culture).
if ever there was evidence that the man is a fossil that was it.
ESJ …….where ru?
That was possibly the worst set of closing remarks ever from Howard. His vision for Australia is the three Rs, tech colleges and his history of Australia. That should take care of all of our problems.
What about the images of Costello during the early stages of the debate. He was laughing at Rudd and at time I think he was heckling (Rudd made mention). A very low act I reckon whihc will nto win votes.
By the way, did anyone else feel uncomfortable for John re: need for a denture refit?
We have the worm in WA.
I would say 55 45 Rudd’s way but Costello’s smirk made me want to vomit
#
470
jen Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 9:33 pm
By the way, did anyone else feel uncomfortable for John re: need for a denture refit?
HaHa you got that too?
Listened to it on radio in the back room. My partner couldn’t stand to listen to Howard.
Rudd sounded like a PM ( or a future PM). Howard sounded like a pretender.
Fascinating contest. Best debate for years.
Rudd a devstating winner.
Hehe yes Jen… I thought his dentures were going to fall out @_@
I agree with the News commentary that Howard improved somewhat as the debate went on, and his question about Rudd’s populist posing on retail prices was very sound. But he blew it totally with that feeble closing. Overall he was trounced.
rudd picked up a few times that howard had not answered the question,
howard gets away with that behaviour in parliment but in a national telecast debate it looked bad
howard seemed flat with no conviction ( too much practise today )
i noticed rudd fired up with lots of “passionate “, evidently getting feedback from the political blogs
game over.
Incidentally, I thought the jounos did a great job. They didn’t give either side an easy run and were far gutsier than I expected.
In our lounge room, we wondered if the fact that Howard kept looking like he was about to cry was a tactic to garner the sympathy vote, or a reflection of how he was feeling.
I agree with Adam….. Howard’s closing statement was horrible
He didn’t look passionate about what he believed in………..
Rather he looked disturbed
but the debate is probably irrelevant to the election…. unless there are
more
Mark Latham and Kim Beasly also won the debate with Howard, but we all know the results of the last few elections
though I’m impressed by Rudd, I doubt this debate has any indication and/or influence the election on Nov.24th.
Did anyone notice how the worm went really underground whenever Howard starting touting his relationship with Bush?
Bush is an albatross around Howard’s neck …….
Why did Howard spend his closing 2 minutes talking about the 3 Rs’. it made him looks so old. Why wouldn’t he have hammered the economy/union line.
Fascinating stuff abouthe pulled Channel 9 line. They’ll give him heaps.
Rudd was so impressive. But, does the ordinary punter really care?
Howard’s closing remarks sounded like he was just making it up. He tried to get on message but sounded like he was clutching at straws. He’ll be much happier back in the land of the seven second sound bite.
Channel News just said Costello was reprimanded for interrupting the debate and then showed shots and Costello and Downer looking like naughty school boys.
nobody cares what they say. If it mattered what they said, they wouldn’t have waffled so damn much. They wanted to know how Kevin Rudd moves. They came to see Kevin dance. And, he is greased lightnin’.
I had thought Rudd might have challenged Howard to another debate, but it wasn’t to be. Any thoughts on whether it would have looked bad/arrogant to do so?
If newspoll is a further “narrowing” it may kill any momentum Rudd will get from this – but given the strong primary poll for the ALP in AC nielson, I think it should stay much the same as it has been…55-45
Interesting seeing some of the commentary on Sky – what is with the need for the media pundits to make this as close a contest as possible? A couple of Sky’s male commentators thought it was a ‘whisker close’ result only slightly in Rudd’s favour. They were clearly watching a different debate than the one I saw.
Sky even made mention of the worm. I love this country, where else in the world could you get over a million people to sit down for 90 minutes and watch a worm.
This must have been when David asked the people in the audience to hold their comments?
…. Don’t know how many caught it, but Rudd muttered under his breath at the same time David was talking words to the effect of “are you referring the Treasurer”? 
450
bill weller Says:
So does everyone on here believe that the worm was representative of the electorate?
Well, it ended up 65-35 to Rudd, which is not a million miles from the general poll results over the last several months.
Costello has form. He did exactly the same once to Michael Egan who was holding a press conference.
Gutless Pete sometimes suffers from the Heffernans. Tonight was one of those ocassions.
Why weren’t the journalists allowed to ask more questions?
Spears allowed the leaders to talk for 10-12 minutes and more for each answer/response! It was ridiculous.
Short sharp debate makes for interesting TV. I found myself tuning out quite a few times.
Ok, I’ll get in my thoughts
Unquestionable win to Rudd
BUT, Howard has lost every debate he has been in.
If Howard wanted to change perceptions, he didn’t. He probably re-inforced them
I wonder how much of “Wormgate” will get into the press (the fact the feed to the debate was pulled – by the government?)
PS Speers just said Rudd won “only just” Gees, this guy won’t quit…
Oh, and btw – it was early on, but I LOVED the way Rudd took Howard’s lamearsed record as treasurer and rammed it up him twice.
And good work on the reform legacy of Hawke/ Keating – and defence on the role on former ACTU leaders in leading that macro-economic reform in the 80s.
Howard’s not used to copping those in debates. Good to see.
And the winner is… Australian Idol:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22624945-29277,00.html
If Liberal HQ had anything to do with cutting Nine’s direct feed them that is just reprehensible.
Why on earth do TV stations need prime ministerial approval to put a graphic on their screen? Howard is trying to turn us into a Howard loving nanny state.
A very good result overall – Howard exposed the ugly reality that Rudd is simply the creature of the trade union movement. An out of touch, extremist, thuggish bunch of industrial cretins that will destroy Australia’s prosperity.
Well done JWH!
One criticism though – what in God’s name was the PM talking about at the end? Should have been focusing on who is best to maintain Australia’s economic prosperity combined with another shining of the bright light of the truth on the trade union/ALP nexus.
Spears on Sky commenting now – he thinks Rudd only ‘just won’ on points. He also thinks Howard looked relaxed and unruffled. He thinks it was an even contest. Honestly, talk about creative myth-making. I really wish the punditocracy would stop with their desperate need for a close contest.
The Worm Turns back the Tide
Phew ! No stumble from Rudd. In fact, Rudd may have grabbed control of the steering wheel again tonight. He needed to after getting creamed by JWH in the first week.
Now on to week 2-3; no major fumbles in these weeks and Rudd has a very good shot at winning this election. Howard started 10 points behind, I dont see him pulling back the gap beyond a national swing of 7 percent 2PP in the coming weeks.
Therefore, its prediction time for this armchair non-expert
I think Parramatta, Lindsay, Eden-Monaro, Dobell, Corangamite, Latrobe, Bonner, Moreton, Blair, Hasluck, Kingston, Makin, Wakefeild, Braddon, Bass and Solomon will give Labor the 16 seats required to govern after this election.
Labor may lose seats, but they will be covered by gains amongst McEwen, Bowman, Longman, Petrie, Stirling and Boothby. Others to watch will be Page, Paterson, Robertson, Herbert and Ryan.
I am excluding Bennelong, Wentworth, Longman, Deakin, Flynn and Sturt because I would be surprised if any of these went for one reason or another.
Unless something terribly wrong happens to the Labor brand over the coming weeks, I am sticking by a 25-27 seat net gain for Labor and 2 periods of government before the Coalition get another sniff at incumbency.
After a slow start Rudd smashed him, but he could have done more:
1. He should have tackled Howard’s straight-out lie about centralised wage fixing.
2. He should have tackled Howard’s ridiculous position that having all Labor state and Federal governments will “upset the checks and balances”. This is total and utter bullshit, Howard knows it, and he’s only relying on the fundamental ignorance of people about these sorts of things. Somebody needs to publicly correct him.
My abiding memory of this so-called debate will be that Howard’s vision for Australia is, apparently, “history”. Sums it all up really.
what about the last question from uhlmann. what a loser!
Howard’s one hit wonder tax bribe has been stopped in its tracks by big Kev. There’s nothing left. He’s finished in five weeks.
To put it bluntly: Rudd kicked Howard’s arse!
The Rodent came across as a bad tempered, irritable, snarky old grandpa, well past his used by date.
Kevin in comparison, although nervous, was much more positive and futuristic(for want of a better adjective).
Hilarious: the Rodent chooses the format and the moderator, and he still loses.
And hopefully Channel 9 really turns against Howard in the next 5 weeks.
That was Jeanette’s contribution to his preparation. One she travelled to Canberra for – even tho’ she can’t stand to be anywhere near where “that woman” has been.
The Soggy Biscuit Boys are now talking to each other on Sky News.
SBB-One thinks Kevin Rudd won, but only just on “points” mind you.
I guess SBB-Two gets to eat the biscuit.
The worst look of the night ( other than the PM fiddling with his front teeth) was the grinning, leering , schoolboyish Costello and Downer – a couple of village idiots. That will not play well in the loungerooms.
Is there any actual evidence that the Libs/the Government actually cut the line to Nine? I saw Ray Martin’s comments at the end, but I don’t think you could conclude anything from that.
Maybe it was a rodent gnawing the wire….
Howard came across like a person reminiscing about how life was really good in the old days. It was weird. It was mostly just like Rudd was a man showing what kind of PM he was, and Howard just looked like he wanted to go to bed. This is what the next five week will look like. Someone make a clever pun in relation to Kevin Rudd using the word ‘teflon’
I reckon there’s only about 0.5 % in winning debates – but chalk it up for Rudd.
I’ll also add that Speer’s was useless. I’d like to see a breakdown of the amount of time each person got to speak, it seemed like Howard couldn’t close his mouth. Then again, my whole family screaming at him to shut up at regular intervals may have twisted my impressions.
Glenn Milne has said Howard won on substance – he was in the audience
Rudd won because he didn’t get “knocked over”
He’s kidding isn’t he….
playing the libs bingo game with his mates
Grog (488) – are you Grog Boggoth from another forum of a rather… diminutive stature?
When people talk about winning on “point”, I wonder how big does a win need to be before it’s a “KO” – 70/30?, 75/25?
That said, every election debate win this far out will be on points – no one is going to lose an election by losing the debate, rather it affects the momentum of the campaign…
Complete thrashing. Well done Kevin Rudd. I can’t stop smiling.
WOW, you’ve discovered that the ALP is the political wing of the trade union movement. This has greatly improved your chances of passing year 8 politics.
Hahahahah if even Liberal hacks don’t know, then he has no chance of winning this election.
Interesting that Rudd was facing pretty much the Liberal front bench during the debate. Glen Milne also thinks Howard performed very well – especially on substance. He also thinks that Howard “got Kevin Rudd’s measure”. I hope the general media will actually report this debate outcome as it happened instead of this myth-making.
Gee, was Milne in the Labor or Liberal 200 guests?
Stunkrat 502#-Kev could have attacked more about centralised wage fixing but the average punter isn’t interested. They just want to know about job security and Kev has to maintain a positive, calm and safe ‘pair of hands’. He did enough whilst not scaring the sheep!
The poisoned dwarf has awarded it to Howard.
Holyhell – his vote counts the same as mine.
Says Howard “Won it on substance” – yeah, of a frigging history curriculum.
SirEggo, Glenn Milne is Rupert Murdochs sock puppet ….+ he’s a TOOL!!
Well Speers had to stop Howard’s last three or so answers short because he had given him too much time earlier in the debate.
He should’ve stopped him short earlier so he didn’t have such a huge lead.
Glenn Milne must have been in the bar drinking – says Howard won! What crap! David Speers and Glenn Milne have been shown for what they are – no idea about politics.
Just show how the media is so out of touch with what the electorate thinks!
I don’t think the worm “fiasco” will be an issue. After all, Channel 9 reprehensibly pirated the Sky News feed and it was well aware that the worm was against the rules.
Aussieguru01 523
Preaching to the Choir!!!!!!
Howard on substance? WTF?
Oh yes oh yes
:):) ……. just counting down the days now.
Milne and Speers – the Laurel and Hardy of the commentariat
More of an issue than the worm should be Costello’s disregard for the rules – not exactly conducting himself in a Prime Ministerial manner.
The poisoned dwarf has NO credibility.
Complete waste of time reading/ listening to anything coming from him or the GG.
Showing his true form.
Regarding the rodent’s claim that having labor governments at state and federal level will be bad for the checks and balances, why doesnt someone point out that the best example of this is the liberals controlling both houses
Centrelink has gone back out to $2.40 for the Coalition – from $2.15 this morning
WHAT? Since when do prime ministers determine what TVs show?
Provided TV stations comply with the Free TV code of conduct, prime ministers have NO role in determining what TV stations broadcast?
Where the hell are we, China? Saddam Hussein’s Iraq? Burma? North Korea?
My verdict.
Kevin Rudd – Answered the questions, was positive in his manner and tone, covered a range of subjects, appeared to have a good grasp of facts and figures.
Rudd showed a willingness to go on the attack over the issues of Economic history, my only cross for Rudd, he never appeared to offer a reason why he voted against certain measures.
John Howard – Sounded old, was aggressive and negative, harped on about previous ALP Govts and offered very little in terms of forward thinking.
Was cheeky to use Rudds meeting with Bush in light of Rudd and Bush agreeing not to disclose meeting, generally a disappointing performance by the PM.
Overall I was impressed with David Speers, and liked the format, what can I say about the worm.
To paraphrase Howard what favours will a Rudd Govt own the Worm.
A nice patch of moist dirt
Howard wont have won any votes out of tonight, and generally debates don’t enfluerence elections results, but with another interest rate rise coming and I keep hearing that a big set of ads are coming then this is really looking ugly.
Krudd buried the Toad; the band just wasn’t wide enough to accommodate Rudd’s positive feedback (and this was from a CH 9 audience!). JWH’s closer was a disaster, and he gave us some extraordinary facial ticks on the way through; has anybody told him to stop trawling his mouth with his tongue in a vain attempt to mop up excess spit? He’s better off spraying a bit than giving the appearance he’s adjusting a dental plate sans onkaparingas. On issues, appearance, and ease of response; Krudd by a country mile.
Isabella dreams:
Bob Hawke, Paul Keating, Isabella, who destroyed our prosperity?
Wasn’t that a thuggish unionist bullyboy interjecting or was it the treasurer?
Exactly right Swing Low. the momentum was the prize up for grabs tonight and I think Rudd took it back into the Labor camp, if only temporarily.
Howard lost the last 2 debates and quipped “Im glad the worm does not have a vote” after winning in 2004. One debate does not an election make, but it does give Rudd some breathing space and an open shot at grabbing the steering wheel again.
If Glenn Milne thinks Howie won the debate then he’s deaf, dumb and blind. He certainly got a hell of a lot more time.
Ecnocrat – no – I’m a newbie who has been desperate for a good blog since the sad absence of Matt Price’s work on The GG.
Kevin Rudd was similarly arrogant Ptobias.
Overall, it was a boring debate. Indeed, it was more of a lecture.
The PM has gone on to win after reassuring ALP debate victories, so it’s a non-event.
News hae a “who won” poll at http://www.news.com.au/0,,nsw,00.html
Results currently reflect Nine’s worm figures almost exactly
Good to see Centerlink diversifying into betting.
Is it possible to directly place your family tax benefit onto the 6th race and Randwick?
Oh goody, now Helen Dalley is invoking Latham’s almost-a-headbutt-handshake and tying this to the fact that Rudd pushed his microphones down before the debate started. (Apparently so he could make himself look taller on camera according to Alan Pease). This commentary is really getting quite entertaining.
495
SirEggo Says:
Unquestionable win to Rudd
BUT, Howard has lost every debate he has been in.
Yes, but this time he also has nearly a years worth of shocking poll numbers to contend with as well, which has never happened before.
Maybe the reason Howard banged clumsily on about the history thing at the end was that he was hoping people would look backwards rather than forwards, and he could get history to repeat itself.
But things have changed. It’s different this time around. And Howard knows it.
Sportingbet is starting to drift out as well – out to $2.30 now (was $2.20 yesterday)
Rudd had a big chance to regain the initiative tonight.
And he blew it – despite the fact that the PM was, in parts, pedestrian.
Costello would have destroyed Rudd if he was out there.
Too bad Kevin – get ready to see the Liberals and Nationals continue their march to victory on November 24. But don’t worry, those Kevin 07 shirts will be great for Liberal Party quiz nights and fundraisers.
Yep, Rudd’s an impressive debater. You don’t get to see this in question time. he did a nice come back to Howard on the Unions in Rudd’s cabinet. And Howard is a lawyer and Rudd is not a Union thingy.
Also did nicely on who he would owe favours to when he (Rudd) gets in…governing for all Australians…very statesman like.
What did Costello do?
Did he really interject?
Christ I didn’t think he would do that…. That’s low even for him.
BTW I saw him with a smirk on his face, let’s see his detrimental nickname is Captain Smirk, and he smirked.
Is he delusional or an idiot?
I think the line of questions that Howard asked Rudd is very telling.
It makes me wonder if they have a handle on him at all. Why ask him about a private conversation with Bush?
Do they *really* think Australian’s hold Howard’s relationship with Bush in a good light?
Generic Person @ 526: “I don’t think the worm “fiasco†will be an issue. After all, Channel 9 reprehensibly pirated the Sky News feed and it was well aware that the worm was against the rules.”
Here’s what Channel Nine’s director of news and current affairs John Westacott says: “I think it’s an editorial decision for the Nine Network, not for the leader of the Liberal Party what we put to air.
“I can only agree with [News Ltd chairman] John Hartigan in his excellent Andrew Olle lecture where he said that political interference in journalism is increasing, not diminishing. And this is a perfect example – the leader of the Liberal Party trying to dictate one of the key events in the election campaign.”
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/10/21/1192940897804.html
I’m with Mr Westacott on this.
oh, Isabella. I hope you’re getting paid for this.
Channel 9 hacx00rs. It was all a ploy by Howard to say that our broadband network is so good now that Ch 9 can pirate a feed from another tv network. Brilliant thinking by Howard. It negates the Broadband issue.
Also, my friend and I (both nurses) kept feeling that John looked decidedly unwell, and at one point we thought proceedings should be stopped to allow him to sit down. So, content aside, he really is looking unwell and that the pressure is too much. especially when he completelt effed up the comment about “15% of the private workforce are union officials” (meant union members)….
all in all – he should be allowed to go gently into the night.
Glenn, you tool, what about Howards twitch. No bias at all from Glenn is there?
Howard needed his front bench for support, no such problem for Rudd.
Rudd is Prime Minister material. Tonights debate showed it.
Milne…I didn’t think he could be a bigger tool…if your watching him now…..boy I’m wrong -sweaty lip and all!
Timbo 533#: Centrelink’s has changed it’s brief since I last looked ha ha
EXACTLY!
I can’t believe in a liberal democracy that it even needs to be said!
Someone asked before about what the ratings for tonights debate would likely be.
IMO going from what happened in my area, right through the roof.
I live in a high traffic area. No vehicles. Dead quiet like third state of origin night, one all, big decider. The ratings in this area at least, huge.
Rudd should launch his education revolution in full asap – he’s got the momentum back temporarily, so he should exploit it fully now.
Also, it’s time for the guerrilla tactics to end – bring out the negative advertising and start dropping the napalm on the Coalition!
You are out of your mind if you think Rudd blew his chance to take the initative back Glen, sorry Isabella, sorry..um whoever. Dream on.
Glen Milne is a peanut. He reckons Howard won. What a biased little vegemite he is.
Rudd was very impressive. He waffles a bit but looked every bit a leader.
Howard had his moments but at times looked snarly and agitated. What can he say though? We’ve known him for 11 years.
I suspect this debate will be forgotten in a week. However it may give Rudd some reinforcement after a poor first week.
Grog – no worries, and welcome to the mudpit..
No 553,
Lomandra, even if you agree with the Channel 9 editor on political interference, it does not justify Channel 9’s illegal rebroadcast of the Sky News feed.
Okay here is the definitive analysis:
Debate was boring as hell and sent most punters asleep, and from memory the Latham-Howard debate was more interesting.
Howard looked like he was about to cry in the first 30 minutes, and the worm was almost always in Rudd’s favour simply because Howard was soooo boring(Rudd was boring too but not Howard level boring)
The debate didn’t have enough passion from the two competitors, they both talked monotone talking points which added to the sleep fest.
The “feed” I assume Ray Martin was talking about was from Channel 9 cameras in Parliment House to the 60 minutes audience. Obviously without vision and sound feeds the audience have no idea which way the worm should turn. The first feed was cut, then the second feed… then 60 minutes audience got sky news feed.
Thats my 2 cents
What was wrong with Howard and his mouth?
He reminded me of those old people who have two sets of dentures (i.e. top and bottom) and the tongue movement they employ when some food gets caught under one of the plates.
It was very annoying.
Costello is an idiot!!
Too much time @ the tanning salon Milnesy!
Sir Eggo,
Glen Milne confirms on Sky that Costello said “Go Kevie”.
GP@566: I very much doubt it was an “illegal feed”. Sky and Channel 9 have arrangements already. Remember the same company that owns 9 owns 25% of foxtel.
But keep pushing that barrow.
The Punter’s Verdict on the Debate. Centrebet Says:
ALP: $1.58 (down from $1.71)
Coalition: $2.40 (up from 2.15)
Rudd won the debate.
How could Howard win on substance? Was he taking drugs or something? Howard was talking of his government’s record and tried to attack the Hawke/Keating years but Rudd came back with a king hit about Howard’s record as Treasurer. The final remarks for Howard was talking about the past, including taking things back 30 years, but Rudd was talking about setting a plan for the future, including the one which includes the end of the mining boom.
Oh, and if Adam is right about Janette writing Howard’s summing up, then it looks like she has had her time too.
How is Channel 9’s rebroadcast an illegal feed? They were always going to show the debate, it’s the fact that they used a “live” worm that the Coalition objected to…
Watch this turn into a debate on the right to free speech…
Hey,
Channel Nine just broadcast that Peter Costello has been “reprimanded” for interjections during the debate.
So who has the “glass jaw” and can’t cope with pressure then?
surely not our Treasurer?
The man the public would dearly love to elect as PM – but only the Liberal Party won’t let ‘em
Sorry Pete – you didn’t get to be in the Leader’s Debate. Though of course Howard needs you, just not just yet, maybe sometime well into the future, when the public have got over the indigestion of their disgust at your 11 years of smirk…
Comprehensive win to Rudd. Substance, Clarity, Passion, Ideas.
And, guess what…he’ll be around for the next 10 years
Unlike John, who having front-end loaded the next 2-3 interest rate rises (and whether rates go up next month is neither here nor there, they have to go up in the next few months, regardless of the latest spendathon – rates are the result of policy 6-9-12 months prior) will bugger off and not face the consequences of his profligacy when it all turns to shite
So if Labor are such bad economic managers, why are they always voted into clear up the economic mess left behind by the Conservatives…?
Typical Johnny Long Gone…whether its Rudd or Costello, they will have to clean up the crap he’s left behind: rising rates, no infrastructure, rising debt, low skills and education, rising temperatures, low tech…
Welcome folks to the 1950s economy – maybe good then. Pitiable in the 21st century
Poor de-skilled trash indeed
Sorry folks,
I’ve been on the last thread!!! My blogs there were old school, very funny and they amused me greatly. No one was listening though…
Pretty much sums up the JWH performance tonight…
I thought he did well enough to call it a draw and that, in itself should be significant
Kevin 07 should have delivered a knock out punch tonight
to be consistent with the polls, tonight should have been a knock out punch
A draw tonight means the contest is still open -
Did I hear right? Glen Glug Glug Milne gave it to the Toad? When push comes to shove (you know what I mean), that vertically challenged bile bag almost makes Shamaham look sober (but he would wouldn’t he?)
If it gets out that the government pulled the feed, will this hurt or help JWH?
Shouldn’t it hurt (resorting to dirty tricks)
The Poisoned Dwarf stays true to form: don’t forget his wife works for Crosby/Textor.
And WTF were Costello and Downer doing in the audience? I presume they had so much trouble finding 200 Liberals in Canberra to take the allotted tickets, so they had to bring in the Howard cabinet ministers and their families to compensate LOL
Milne should get along to his AA meeting!
“Glen Milne is a peanut. He reckons Howard won. What a biased little vegemite he is.”
Can we get one of the guys over at Crikey to push him over?
Sigh…. Hopefully this child never becomes P.M.
Milne knows a little bit more about Australian politics and Federal elections than the smug Kevin07 keyboard heroes that infest this discussion board.
Sorry, but you know it’s true.
Unfortunately you can’t see past Rudd’s supercilious grin and his meaningless platitudes.
Thinking Australians can.
It is illegal. To my knowledge, there was no rebroadcasting arrangement, especially on such short notice.
In any event, I believe there was no debate tonight. It was a boring lecture, lots of longwinded rhetoric from Howard, lots of insubstantial slogans from Rudd.
Howard lost because his voice is monotonous.
too much time at the bar for Milnesy.
If the feed-pulling becomes a problem, Howard will just find a public servant to take the fall. He’s the sort of man who takes responsibility for things, remember? </irony>
Isabella, with due respect Howard’s first 30 minutes were shocking and while he may have drawn the last hour he needed to win tonight and clearly he fall very short.
I think Rudd won 60-40.
You may be right about Costello beating Rudd, but guess what Howard is the leader and he didn’t step up tonight.
Now we know why “Glen” hasn’t been here tonight. He actually is Glen Milne.
Milne is a (partisan) idiot. The debate was clearly won by Rudd, including on substance, and the worm overwhelmingly thought so too.
Both Rudd and Howard looked nervous, but Rudd became more comfortable as time went on, while Howard didn’t. Did people notice that angry and sour face of Howard’s during the periods when he wasn’t speaking? Ugh, it just runs chills up the spine to see it. He just comes across, including when he’s talking, as an angry and bitter man. That alone will not have played well in the lounge rooms of those who were watching and probably further kept the worm in the red zone for Howard, which is stayed there for nearly the entire debate.
And Howard’s closing to the debate? Well, what can we say? It was just woeful. Is Howard saying that his vision for the future mostly consists of re-writing the past?? MAJOR error on Howard’s part, but it just goes to show how stale and old-fashioned he is, and simply underscores Labor’s line about Howard having no genuine plans for the future.
Anyway, a win in a debate is nothing if you don’t win the election, so hopefully Labor will get back some momentum this week, despite the media bias.
Generic, it wasn’t an illegal feed – Sky gave it to them.
Glenn Milne looks so yellow that he has liver problems (how unsurprising would that be).
Given neither Health or Education was raised, it makes Rudds victory even more surprising – it covered Howards strengths but Rudd won the debate!
Rubbish, it would’ve been a well organised backup plan, hence the transition happened so seamlessly.
Isabella,
65% of thinking Australians in Channel 9’s audience thought that Rudd won the debate – go find some numbers to prove me otherwise (and Milne is not a thinking Australian – he’s a government hack)
Timbo @ No 533. Did you really mean Centrebet and not Centrelink?
What “illegal feed”, Generic Person? Nine had contracted to rebroadcast Sky’s coverage.
GP@585: “Based on your knowledge”. And that would be what, exactly? What on earth makes you think that Channel 9 would do something like pirate another company’s feed?
It’s also unclear whether it was the feed to the studio where the worm-drivers were, or their televised feed – I didn’t notice any breaks in transmission.
No 591
If it was legal, then claims of illegality would not have been publicly aired. Even the ABC’s Jim Middleton made the point.
It was illegal, unless you can show some verifiable proof saying otherwise.
One interestign point the poisoned dwarf made was to look at where they steer their answers – he said the fact that the PM said the troops in Iraq will have a less combat role means Iraq = meh for Howard, and perhaps most interestingly, that the fact he spent his last 2 minutes talking about education means that Labor’s education subsidy is getting a lot of traction.
isabella 549# Did you see the worm when he even mentioned Costello’s name? Costello is disliked by the general community and that is why he was not standing up there tonight. If he was, this would be a complete and total romp for the unemployed Chinese speaking bureaucrat.
Workchoices is a dead Albatross around the coalitions neck.
The titantic has already hit the iceberg. People have woken up.
Can you imagine with global economic growth as high as it is, that Howard is behind. He should be cruising in this economic bounty. Instead he is well behind and looking old, sick and rattled.
AEC Data feeds
I have just been informed that the AEC will only be providing copies of the Above-the-line registered Party preferences in PDF format. Yes it can be data-mined But would it not make more sense if they provided this information in XML data format. One file per state?
Why is it that our Electoral Authorities in collision with the media seek to enormement a technocratic code of secrecy. is it to protect their domain of influence? And use the lack of information to cover up there ongoing mistakes?
Relevant data files should be ready available to ten public. Contrary to the false advice given by some media analysts this does not use vast computer resources or difficult to generate. in fact the information is readily availiable just not public. Our Taxes not at work
ITS A COMMUNIST PLOT!
“It was illegal, unless you can show some verifiable proof saying otherwise.”
Interesting take on the presumption of innocence….
Watched the ABC, the worm is garbage. The fact the worm went up before Rudd said something showed what a joke it is. If they are undecided voters, it is only between the Greens and Labour.
I would say the debate was mostly a draw, until they got to the questions, where Howard’s questions were terrible.
536
The Keegan
LOL. Brilliant.
And Glenn Milne has blown whatever little credibility he had left.
No. 603
Ray Martin even acknowledge Channel 9’s guilt.
Those interested should contact the AEC direct and express their concern and opposition to this information not being published in a readily accessible format
wizard.callcentre@aec.gov.au
Don’t attack Glen Milne. Think seroiuously about what the ‘content’ was that he believed Howard won the debate on…
…. ummm … just can’t think of any at the moment…
ummm… Ok Milne is delusional
I don’t know if it was listening to it on radio that focussed attention on what was actually said but I found the contest of ideas fascinating. Those watching on TV should read the transcript. Rudd had an answer to everything that was thrown at him. Howard rattled a few times.
Tend to agree that it probably doesn’t mean much in terms of vote but as has been observed previously, this time it’s different – history is not a reliable guide to how this election will play out.
GP,
I don’t see why Channel 9 would risk its reputation (and its bottom line) on a re-broadcast of the debate, considering it owns 25% of Foxtel (and therefore, Sky News).
Anyway, on other matters, does anyone know when the next poll is out?
Do you reckon the Newspoll numbers come out on Monday like they have over the past few? Might they be out soon after midnight?
Rudd sounded like a PM! Yes.
I thought Howard did pretty well too but came in second. I am amazed he wrapped up with the history lesson? How prophetic.
I guess relations between the Rodent and Channel 9 are now at an all time low: Howard presumably will now only appear on Sunrise.
Possum,
As a possum you know that if you eat Mrs McCorrigles rose buds then that is an illegal feed.
Don’t pretend you don’t know better.
“Isabella” is a Liberal talking point-generating algorithm, you could have more substantial dialogue with a broken air-conditioner.
Let these reporter do their ’spin job’ ….we all know KR won big time & so the momentum has picked up a notch …I believe the polls are going back to Labor so keep your eyes opened & remember what I say!
“Isabella Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Unfortunately you can’t see past Rudd’s supercilious grin and his meaningless platitudes.”
Leave the tantees to Alexander, darling.
Isabella is Janette.
Channel 9 does not own Foxtel.
PBL owns Foxtel, and PBL no longer holds a majority share in Channel 9.
And the verdict is in:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22625219-29277,00.html
#604 (wpc) … presentation, demeanour, posture and so on are undeniably part of one’s subconcious assessment of a speaker – so it’s no surpise the worm started going up when Rudd was on camera (before saying anything)… given his demenaour was a thousand times better than Howard’s.
#606 … who cares re the legality of the feed? The real story (which I suspect you’re trying to distract from) is who cut the feed and what the papers will be saying about it in the coming week. I’m sure Ch 9 are quite capable in dealing with the legal side (if there is one).
Alan Pease’s comments on Howard’s body language is funny. He saw Howard’s bottom lip dropping and looking like a little kid whose ice-cream had just been taken away and whining that he wants it back. That comment went over like a lead balloon with the partisan Sky crowd!
Is there any different between Nine showing Sky feed and switching to CNN when a 9-11 type event happens
The reason it matters is that we all want to see what kind of person Kevin Rudd is: if he can answer a question, if he can be states-manly, if he’s a prat, etc, etc. And although I didn’t see anything prime ministerial, it’s clear that there’s something there, and that he’ll be able to suck up the benefit of the doubt. It was Rudd’s big audition, reading against the man who’s played the role for 11.5 years. It shows that Howard just doesn’t know how to campaign against Rudd, and the worm stories show that the reason it doesn’t matter is that nobody changed their mind; as has been the case for a year now, it’s largely one-way traffic
Make sure that you all call in your support for Rudd by those phone numbers that Ray gave out at the end of the program (for those in time zones where the program hasn’t finished yet, the analysis runs on on 9 for about 15 to 20 extra minutes, including commercials).
At our house, DH and I both rang up using our mobiles. We didn’t want to both use the landline in case it might recognize two calls coming in from the same number. For those who want to call in who they thought won
:) and didn’t get the number, I quite imagine that Channel 9’s website will have the numbers rebroadcast.
They said that the call in totals for who won the debate (vs. the worms answer of 65-29%) will be made on ACA tomorrow evening
:).
Night, all, I’m in Sydney
Yes, the debate was tedious, but they generally are. They’re full of nice, fluffy catchphrases and not much more. I’m not sure why a couple of you were expecting more – this is the way it’s always been and it’s not about to change.
Watching the worm was a lot more interesting. My household was cracking up in laughter whenever we saw the difference between the two leaders.
I think talk about a knock out punch (delivering one or failing to deliver one) is misleading, because the debate has little electoral relevance. It does provide the ALP with a momentum booster though.
I don’t think it works that way. I also fail to see its relevance to the main theme of this thread.
Morgan on Monday , yes ?
What is it with Costello – he is an unmitigated fool. I was elated when they showed him sitting their with that maniacal grin – it was electoral gold for Labor. He was clearly there to try to intimidate Rudd and boy did he fall flat on his face. The Rodent was simply grotesque.
GP who gives a damn who owns sky. Who cares – the story will be the Libs cut the feed. The rest is chatter.
Bluebottle:
You may want to check your lists.
GP – if it was illegal, then I’m sure Howard will be announcing with great fanfare tomorrow that the prosecution of channel 9 is imminent.
No?
End of story.
Grog, the PM has been saying for over a week that the worm would be outlawed. Channel 9 knew the consequences.
I had a laugh early on, I’m sure Kevin Rudd has been reading this blog for many have said he needed to attack Howard over his Fraser years and be more proactive regarding the good things Hawke did.
Overall, the debate saw a solid victory to Rudd. Howard made all of his points reasonably, however he spent too much time fighting on weak ground (workchoices, climate change, Iraq) and Rudd was very capable and confident on Howard’s strongest turf (economic management/who deserves credit for our prosperity/who’s best to manage our prosperity).
I can’t believe Howard’s closing statement. The History Wars again?! Are there any votes in this? Are people angrily demanding a more uniform, conservative history curriculum as their number one electoral priority? Unbelievable.
And this just in from the wires…
Howard has announced that his new look Ministry will include a Minister for remembering Gallipolli, a Minister for Bradmanism and a Special Minister of State responsible for explaining to people the difference between an apology and saying sorry. The PM says “Senator Bill Heffernan has been a long-term loyal supporter, advisor and colleague to me and he will have first choice from these new ministries.”
How does a worm become “outlawed”.
All that happens is that Channel 9 did not abide by the terms of the broadcasting agreement – a contractual breach that I’m sure they’ll be happy to pay the fine for (if such a fine doesn’t breach the implied freedom of political communication in the Constitution)
I’ll be pissed if it was the Chaser’s who pulled the feed.
I’m a Chaser fan but this is going a bit too far….
How can they ‘outlaw’ it without pushing through legislation?
The fac that Alan pease was there providing “political” comment is a sad reflection on the Sky approach to News.
Where was the Astrologist?
The fact that Alan Pease was there providing “political” comment is a sad reflection on the Sky approach to News.
Where was the Astrologist?
Here’s one
Are Channel 9 facing sanction for running the worm?
Charges? Fines?
If the Libs get their backs up about the worm, it will look like sour grapes…
Is this a potential powderkeg?
Am I asking too many questions?
Sean- agreed.
I ws appalled when the camera swung to show Costello and Downer slouching in thier chairs like recalcitrant schoolboys about to give the teacher hell by being ever so cheeky …pathetic.
And then John kept naming them, as if it would impress us that these are his right-hand men.
what a sad joke this lot are.
Sky News – the poor man’s CNN.
Pity it’s the only thing we’ve got…
Generic Person, with parliament dissolved, I don’t think John Howard can create legislation to outlaw worms right now. Maybe he can promise to do it if re-elected.
The consequences are a govt looking scared of the public. Stupid tactic.
Anyway it is a side issue.
Rudd did what he needed to – will it generate votes? Who knows, debates haven’t historically – but then when you’re in the lead you don’t need to get more votes, you need to hold on, and I would suggest Rudd’s performance would have solidified a lot of those so-called “soft” ALP votes.
Laughin here Mr Speaker, oops !!
OK for Longman in the possible gains column put Leichardt. Should check first before I post my dribble. Thanks for that. I have excluded Longman because of the local popularity of the sitting member which was confirmed by channel Eddy this morning.
Labor Voter 635
Chaser pulling the worm – are you kidding?
My house: 1 liberal 1 swinging voter and 1 Labor watched ABC together.
Verdict: Unanimous. Rudd cleaned Howard’s clock.
Rudd: More relaxed, quicker on his feet, and much smarter.
Howard: Yesterdays man by a long shot.
DGW #633 – hilarious.
Channel nine already indignant about having the worm taken away from them:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/election_article.aspx?id=307689§ionid=6046§ionname=minisiteelection
Nine’s director of news and current affairs, John Westacott, defended the network’s decision, calling the decision to cut the feed “blatant political censorship”.
“It’s not the preserve of the Liberal party to make editorial decisions for Channel Nine,” Mr Westacott said.
Illegal worms eh, I’m sure there’s medication for that.
I doubt very much that Ch 9 would do an illegal fees. They’re part-ownes of Sky after all.
If Howard whinges about the worm it will look bad.
What’s the bet now that Ch 9 won’t be getting any feed from the National Tallyroom on Nov 24. If I was Howard, I wouldn’t want to be pissing the MSM off, since they have been on his side forever, but they can turn and visciously too.
629 comments !!
Question: Who here gives the worm any credibility whatsoever?
I took three points out of tonight.
1. Rudd won the debate. Undoubtably. He was more positive, Howard still too negative, and he didn’t target his responses right. Score one for Labor.
2. The debate won’t have an impact on the election result, as per previous debates, unless it becomes a catalyst for a momentum shift to Rudd over the next week etc
3. Channel nine should be forever banned from using the worm. Absolute garbage. Rudd opens his mouth, and before he says anything the slightest bit substantial, the worm shoots up a few points. What total crap.
Channel Nine did NOT pirate the Debate feed. It was hosted by Sky but the feed was available to any of the Networks who cared to carry it. Everyone knew beforehand that Nine was going to broadcast it and use the worm and Sky did not say a word of protest beforehand. If Sky had said before hand that no other network could carry the feed they would have been crucified. Who wants to bet that Sky won’t be able to take any legal action.
Back now. Watched it with Labor voters, admittedly.
Surprised and not displeased by the questions, as this is all about the media. And what they will report.
Struck us as the questioning was balanced, in the main. The media, Kelly very, and Hartcher somewhat less, seemed almost to be setting up Howard.
Kev won it, clearly. One of the ambivalents here remarked that it was the first time she had seen Kev as a less than wooden person, and she was impressed.
Though she does not and never has had a TV.
If Sky took legal action – won’t they be suing themselves
Doesn’t Ch9 own sky, or part thereof?
Max,
Maybe people prefer the look of Kevin to JWH – I know it’s shallow, but it could very well be a factor. If someone looks fresh and attractive, it can alter perceptions completely, even if they may lose on substance. (see Kennedy v Nixon debate in 1960)
Btw, I’m not saying Rudd lost on substance, I’m saying that visually, he may be more appealing than Howard, which could explain the upward movement in the worm whenever he appeared on TV.
Debate with no worm = boring as batsh*t
Debate with worm = great television
I started with Ch2 but the family made me switch to 9 ‘cos they wanted to see the worm.
Forget Milne, overwhelming and comprehensive win to Kevin, was very impressive tonight and the experts will call it that way tomorrow.
The way Rudd handled the tough questions and economy and union scare will also boost his confidence and give him momentum for the rest of the campaign.
Howard gave the worst and befuddled closing response I have ever heard from any political leader, dreadful.
Where was the Astrologist?
Interesting at the start of the year most Astrologist claimed Saturn would leave Leo in September making way for Leo’s to have a great end to the year.
What has happened!!
I heard the last 20 minutes on News Radio – Howard’s voice sounded like it was shaky, Rudd sounded firm.
AND Rudd’s answer to Uhlman’s pretty spitefully worded triple barrel question was excellent – brilliant work, smooth as you like. Uhlman is a spiteful turd.
Rudd’s closer was ok and did well to focus on the future. Howard’s closer wandered, was mundane and I lost focus as it sounded like waffle.
It is not Smirk, he has graduated to Yellow Smirk or Yellow Costello for the continuous courage he has shown in not challenging for the Leadership.
Milne’s summary should make him ashamed of himself – I guess he is still hoping to get a job with Costello. Sky news, well we all know that is the TV version of the GG – another electioneering arm of the Liberal party.
All Labor supporters should be happy with their man – he did himself credit.
————————–
Labor 20+ if no media interference
Labor 5 if media interference
Labor voters do not buy murdoch papers
No 655
Channel 9 does not own Sky.
GP at 631. I can see the headlines “Howard Loses Fight With Worm”
So Howard want to cover the 3 r’s….Racism, refugees and rooting the unions.
Congratulations to Ch9 for having the gonads (note gender-neutral term) to defy Loughnane’s arrogant, petty attempt to prevent the public seeing what a towelling the Ruddster gave Grandpa.
Albert Ross 657# The worm certainly made it more entertaining I changed over about half way as well. It made a whole lot more interesting. I still think Howard received more time.
{A spokesman from the Liberal Party said that Nine did not adhere to the agreed rules.
“Nine breached the conditions of the broadcast (agreement),†the spokesman said.
“It’s a matter for the National Press Club.†}
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22625342-29277,00.html
Howard’s libs = girly-men afraid of worms
Let It End (658): Bang on. This is the general response from where I was:
“what the [heck] is he talking about? Australian history? And why won’t he stop licking his teeth? Is there food trapped in his mouth?”
as a wrap up and a nice sequel to that
oh, that hand gesture he kept doing at the start, the pumping fist. That was…unpleasantly suggestive
It re-started at the point it left off at for each speaker.
I thought you were banned from this blog?
He is an unmitigated fool.
I’ll say it again: who cares about the legality or otherwise of the feed??? If there is any truth to the suggestion the govt or the liberal party had anything to do with the outage, then that is deeply, deeply disturbing in our supposed ‘democracy’ – and is undoubtedly what should focused upon rather than the minor point of legalities surrounding the replacement feed.
Normally I don’t think the debates have made any difference, but this time I reckon that those who want to believe that Howard might be a safer bet as Rudd is still an unknown quantity would have been left in no doubt as to who has a positive, energetic plan for the future. Howard looked, and is, washed up – Yesterdays Man.
Isn’t pulling the plug on Ray Martin and the worm unAustralian?
Isn’t Ray part of the great australian narrative that the PM was so concerned about? will he set up an inquiry?
PS. did I misshear the PM – I could swear that at one point he claimed that 15% of australians in private sector employment were union officials?
Can anyone confirm this?
There is an online poll at the SMH website. Everyone go and vote please
http://www.smh.com.au/
Yes he did say that, I noted the slip at the time.
The fact that the worm rocketed skywards as soon as Mr Rudd broke wind simply illustrates the inherent bias of the Channel Nine studio audience.
Like 2004, once again the Nine studio audience was stacked with lapdogs of Labor and trade union sycophants.
Ray Martin was simply s hitty that he has lost the gig as MC to a far more talented 33 year old. His childish tantrum and his ranting about free speech is yet another example that Channel Nine is no longer ‘The One’, rather a piece of commercial TV driftwood.
Yes, but you must understand that for the previous 4 debates Ray Martin has been Howard’s moderator of choice. This year it is different because Martin has been hosting Labor party fundraisers (he also does the same for the Liberals). This annoyed Howard so much that he shifted it to Sky News.
No 672
I voted neither.
also, a tipping point?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Nine-says-debate-broadcast-sabotaged/2007/10/21/1192940904313.html
The AWB doing kick back deals with Saddam was “illegal” so lets not get tied up about the legality or illegality of something far less significant or important in a frikkin worm. BRING BACK THE WORM I say, legal or illegal.
Swing Lowe @ 656
I take your point, but if that is the case then channel nine chose a very shallow minded audience.
Now, I’m trying to picture an audience member, who is sitting in the crowd. I imagine there is a dial in his or hand for ‘approve’ and one for ‘disaprove.’ A person who automatically clicks ‘approve’ as soon as the camera switches to Rudd surely can’t be a suitable indicator of who won the debate. I accept (with some disgust) that there are people who WILL vote for Rudd simply because he is not Howard, but the point of the worm is supposedly to guage response to the debate. Which is why, of course, the worm is useless as an indicator in such events.
It is virtually impossible to pick an unbiased audience, of course, something I admit freely (along with the fact Rudd clearly won).
Albert @ 657
I completely agree, the worm added huge amounts of entertainment to the debate – mainly for reasons discussed above
Melbcity, nobody cares, least of all Mr Bowe who I suspect is going to kick you off again, mostly for being irrelevant.
There is a massive difference between breach of contract (if that’s what it was) and illegality, Generic Person.
No 679
A reasonably good assessment. It once again proves Channel 9’s complete uselessness in picking swinging voters. They’ve got it wrong so many times now, that the worm is worthless as a gauge for voting intentions in the wider public.
Without searching the site for, John Hunt is a.. causing much amusement as I related it to my travellers, was it any mistake that Kev referred in his introductory to Mr Coward, immediate correction.
Adam – thanks for confirming that my hearing is still acute – my wife and I both cracked up simultaneiously over that line. I think it indicates an obsession. I notice they don’t use the higher figure of 20% union membership across all sectors of the economy.
by the way what do the bookiesl know about the PM’s chances in Bennelong that the Coalition doesn’t given the amunt of itme he is spending there?
But Mr Howard remains the bookies’ favourite to win his Sydney seat of Bennelong, with his odds at $1.28 compared with $3.25 for Labor challenger Maxine McKew.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22625342-29277,00.html
What a load of RUBBISH! Where the hell is the country headed when Liberal party hacks try to tell TV stations what they can and can’t broadcast?
Where the hell are these people from? Shouldn’t they be running a junta in Burma? Or public relations for North Korea?
Just saw a National Farmers Fed television ad for Work Choices. Boring.
I noticed the Mr Coward “slip” too, but wasn’t sure if I was imagining it…
teehee…
Well: pick the monday morning story. I reckon the ch9 feed will overshadow this, and it’s like having a lit skyrocket in your pants. Rudd soundsbites on the six PM news, and a story of sabotage filled with denials, accusation, counter-accusation and then some. Things fall apart
SMH says Rudds odds have shortened after the debate win
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Rudds-odds-shorten-after-debate-win/2007/10/21/1192940905426.html
Why is Chris Ullhman a turd? He hammered those questions at Rudd. Rudd responded well. Ullhman likes to put them on the spot. Rudd had it covered. Although he didn’t hammer Howard. Although I thought Paul Kelly looked even angry at Howard when asking about the inflationary pressures from his tax cut policy.
Who cares what P-Dwarf thinks? I mean, his paid posiiton is, as far as I can tell, Costello’s press secretary.
More importantly, the punters have awarded it comprehensively to Rudd. Check the betting odds shoifting back.
Again, I think Rudd did very well on the Hawke/Keating reform legacy.
And Rodent having the hide to accuse Rudd of peddling untruths after his whopping porkies about centralised wage fixing!
Sh*t, even the authors of that report state quite clearly it is totally irrelevant to this election – as neither side proposes it.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22625345-29277,00.html
Can I point out that claiming someone presents substance, whereas someone else doesn’t isn’t actually SUBSTANCE!
I switched off the sky news broadcast as soon as Speers mentioned that Milne was with him.
No 691
The journalists were all average in my opinion.
They should have been more involved and allowed to put the PM and Rudd on the spot. They essentially allowed them to blab on for several boring minutes rather than answer the question.
In the morning, how much attention the story about Nine’s feed gets will depend on the media outlet. Chances are Seven and Ten will pretty much ignore it, while it’ll probably be done to death on Today.
Tomorrow night’s stories will depend very much on what happens during the day. The Libs might want to roll out some policies pretty quickly, if they have any – based on tonight’s performance, the cupboard seemed pretty bare. I would imagine we might see some detail of the climate change fund announced by Team Howard tonight.
1
alpal Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Tonights debate is about Rudd. If he sparkles, doesn’t get defensive with the panel, looks and sounds energetic, doesn’t gaffe, produces the odd decent on-liner – and finishes strongly then he will tell Australia that he is ready. We’re looking – this is your test.
I think he passed your test alpal and took back the election campaign momentum from JWH, if only temporarily, and he was better tonight than the puppet he was last week, 9/10 for my money.
“A person who automatically clicks ‘approve’ as soon as the camera switches to Rudd surely can’t be a suitable indicator of who won the debate.”
You guys are forgetting what the worm really measures. It reflects how people FEEL towards the two leaders. If the worm shifts to “positive” before Rudd actually speaks, then it shows that the majority of people in the audience feel warmly towards Rudd. Maybe he was smiling, maybe he just looked good, it doesn’t matter, it is a global measure of IMPRESSIONS, which is important in politics.
The question about who people think won the debate was summed up when the audience were actually asked to vote. 65% of the audience said that Rudd won, 29% said Howard, and the rest undecided.
Whether the composition of the audience was unbiased to begin with is a different issue.
Rudd won. Howard lost.
night all.
hehe ShowsOn… maybe Andrew Robb should try a line of attack more familiar to he and the libs? … “The worm hates our way of life and hates our freedom”…
No 698
Well if impressions were the only thing that mattered in politics, Howard would have been defeated years ago. Clearly that has not been the case.
The debate is a non-event, given its disproven ability to predict election outcomes.
Kina 660
Uhlman is a dead set anti Kev. Falls into line with their ABC. Very like 891, ABC radio, MattnDave.
I watched ABC TV. Didn’t get any wraps. Where can I pick up stuff like the Milne.
‘Labor voters do not buy murdoch papers’.
Certainly not!
No 695. Middleton was right. It was a lecture of sorts rather than any serious debate. I like how Howard qualified his statements as to “economic reform over the last 20 years or so”. He had to acknowledge the real reforms carried out by Hawke and Keating. Costello and Howard have done little to fundamentally change the economy and yet he takes all the credit. People need to be more engaged.
# 586 Tory Crimes Says: October 21st, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Passing out on his porch more like.
Off topic – If Newspoll is out tomorrow, won’t it be up on the GG web site by 11 pm tonight?
Yeah, that was a surprise. Kelly really got up Howard.
Id wager the worm fiasco is quite bad news for Team rodent, and the most significant thing to come out of the night.
Now, many of us know they’re shocking little tyrants and born-to-rule bully boy thugs – but now a whole lot more people will get a whiff of it.
Plus they’ll look ever so …..precious…. to your average punter. Channel 9 has basically told Team Rodent to get stuffed, which is brilliant, and a model to all viewers!
Here stalleth the comeback.
That will happen next it seems.
It is hilarious, he has a go at Rudd for using slogans, then he trotts out the word “substance” as if it automatically explains exactly what the government wants to do if re-elected.
Robb is right about what the worm measures and doesn’t measure – but that misses the point. Floating voters aren’t interested in the “substance” of the debate. That’s why they’re floaters. An “instinctive reaction to focus-driven slogans” is exactly what you expect from floating voters, as the Liberal Party knows full well. What is “70% union bosses” if not a focus-driven slogan? If the worm accurately measured the instinctive reaction to focus-driven slogans, then it did its job.
Just in from Liberal HQ. The worm was controlled by Osama Bin Laden.
If Howard loses the Liberals are going to start a public relations firm dealing with North Korea, and Cuba, and will be giving media reform advice to Russian President Putin.
“The debate is a non-event, given its disproven ability to predict election outcomes.”
Oh, I agree with that. For a start, most of the people who will decide this election were probably watching Idol rather than the debate. And the coverage of it will be long forgotten even by next week.
But I do hope the worm conspiracy gets a running for a while. It it is a classic example of the Libs being mean and tricky. Great stuff for Labor.
No 703
Howard was pedestrian at times but he was good at highlighting his consistent voting record on economic reform, whereas Rudd has changed his mind quite substantially in order to get elected.
But I would have to agree, Middleton’s assessment was accurate. Howard has a better chance when the speeches are short and sharp and when he is ad libbing. Rudd’s responses seemed to reflect a lot of pre-preparedness which indicates weakness when he’s off message.
Debates aren’t about prepared set-pieces. They should be about free-flowing discussion, which was what was promised, but which Speers failed to deliver.
Chris (F)uhlman – was everything I expected him to be… did anyone have a stopwatch on total time spent speaking by both leaders. My subjective impression was Mr. Howard had by far and away the better of it… but that might not have been a bad thing. We don’t get Channel 9 out here… so no worm but it seems the more Howard spoke the worse the worm became…
701 “The debate is a non-event, given its disproven ability to predict election outcomes.”
Well then why on earth do you keep banging on about it, the worm and Ch 9’s feed if it means so little. Seems to mean an awful lot to you.
so now debating the debate about the debate ?
my head hurts
Adam,
There seems to be two external issues surrounding the debate.
1. Costello’s inability to control himself. Next PM on parade disgraces himself.
2. The Great Worm Debate about the cut feed to Channel 9.
How will these factors affect the polls?
Even if the worm moved up and down based on random number generation it still wouldn’t give the Liberals the right to tell channel 9 whether or not they could broadcast it.
Thankfully, we live in a country where TV stations don’t require government permission to put things to air. However it seems the Liberals forget we are a liberal democracy whenever it suits their political interests.
In fact, TV broadcast standards are based on self-regulation, whereas the government (via the OFLC) determines what can be shown at the cinema, or on DVD. Why they still have this power in 2007 I have no idea, but anyway…
Good confirm, Econocrat. Sadly, my recording began after Kev, so cannot replay. He did say that, for sure.
675 (Isabella) And a sure fire way to turn Nines’ editorial line against you.
Generic person
WTF is “pre-preparedness”?
All of the main MSM is giving the debate to Rudd and most are running with the pulling the feed from Ch 9 story – could blow up in Howards face – scared of scrutiny, censorship issues etc. But let’s face it, the worm couldn’t be shown to the public – obviously, the worm is a union thug and had to go…
Besides, who cares if Howard is too old to get his worm up…
I emailed Rudd a few times at the begining of this year to promote the work that Hawke/Keating did to create our current good economy – as probably did many other people. This and the union thing is something they should have promoted as a strength for some time. Howard has been fasley surfing on Labor’s economic credentials for 11 years.
“But Mr Howard remains the bookies’ favourite to win his Sydney seat of Bennelong, with his odds at $1.28 compared with $3.25 for Labor challenger Maxine McKew.”
You can bet that Mr Howard is being backed heavily by the party to make sure it looks like he is in front. Not a good look for the LNP Leader to seem done for.
Generic Person. Diagnostics. I am glad you are not my GP.
605 Just Me, ta for the LOL, but talk about a fish in a barrell, Glug Glug is a free kick that I just can’t resist taking, and 633 DGW, nice one! Any more supercillious ministries for us?
Firstly, can I say I’ve just waded through 688 posts on the debate, and it’s been marvellously entertaining. Thank you everyone.
I watched the debate on ABC-TV, and was disappointed not to find out that 9 had run the worm until the end of the debate. Then I switched over, and had a look at Ray, who seem mightily amused by the escapades of the worm.
I thought Rudd easily won the debate. In fact, I think it was the best performance I’ve ever seen from an Opposition Leader, state or federal, in this sort of situation. He knew his themes and he knew his facts and figures. Apart from one stumble on climate change, he handled the questions very well.
Rudd managed to say “working families” even more times than Howard bagged the unions (quite a feat!). And in a remarkable “on-message” achievement, Rudd even managed to get Howard to say “education revolution” several times!
I thought Speers handled the debate calmly and well, and didn’t fluff a single line. For all the people who bag him on this blog, you need to remember that he would do more genuine live TV than any of the other journos, and frequently moderates/hosts live debates. Experience counts in this sort of thing – it’s not easy to do.
I thought virtually all the journos questions were relevant, and both leaders got a reasonable doing over. I was disappointed though that health got very little mention (except when Rudd threw it irrelevantly into answers on other topics). Health is a huge issue in this election, if you check the polls. Education got debated a fair bit by default, and what was Howard on about at the end??
The other area that was ignored was water and drought. In fact, no-one gave a shit about big issues in regional Australia, and I think many people outside the big cities will be disillusioned by the debate. Apart from a bit of repartee about high petrol prices, country Australia got little recognition here. Obviously the parties believe the election will be won and lost in the suburbs, despite all the talk about important regional seats.
Rudd was pretty good on reconciliation. His best moments in my opinion.
Howard will announce a new policy tommorrow : “Worm-Choices”
Generic Person 712# There were are number of instances were they did slip off message and really weren’t sure. Spontanous, off the cuff retorts are part of a debate. This was more a platform.
Our media today is too manufactured, for the sound bite, when it gets messy people don’t like it. The Latham handshake taught Labour a big lesson. Take Hewson on the backs of trucks having rallies for his GST.
He lost the unlosable unelection, supposedly.
Labour has only won office a couple of times since WWII. I would rather be over prepared and a little nervous.
What do you mean Rudd has changed his mind in order to get elected?
I wouldn’t have voted for Howards reforms either.
I can’t believe it, is there a God in Heaven ( sorry to staunch believers), but has Isabella criticised the PM? ( see her post 499).
It’d be like me saying Gough Whitlam was the worst PM in Australia’s history? Sacrilege! But to her everlasting credit, she actually connected with reality for once.
I’d say he figured the ‘union bash’ wasn’t going to work and by that stage he was just running out of steam, as a man of 68 might be expected to do under pressure after an hour and a half in the national spotlight – and of course Kevvie quoting Bernie Banton lauding Combet and others. So much for ‘evil’ union leaders.
Even took the risk Hawke and Keating legacy would be strong on ‘economic reform’ – just took the game right to the Rodent!!
Somehow even made some of the stats sound a bit sexy, though I think he should try not to talk about ‘parts per million’ – no one would have accepted Howard’s attack on Rudd’s OECD report comments – Howard just looked churlish. Any mug knows the Govt has ‘first refusal’ on OECD reports, as Kevvie knows full well. Was almost an ‘in joke’on the Rodent.
Great if Mr Speaker is there to help, or Costello, who is a good debater, had been there to help – but bad luck, only the Lame Duck talking tonight.
And WormGate, the attempted censorship scandal of the campaign – could it possibly be sheeted straight to the Libs Campaign Team? How sweet it is – and a master stroke from Labor to release the child care policy today – I think it must have exhausted the Libs team trying to find a response, or they are saving it up so it doesn’t get lost in the Debate chatter. –
And what about those schoolboys Costello and Downer? Caught red-handed heckling like some loons on a street corner!!
Saint Kevvie just returned – and showed he could fight with the best of them. A couple of stumbles, but just as the populace seem to be forgiving him other gaffes, so did the Worm audience.
A much needed morale boost for some of us ALP supporters who might have been inclined to believe it really is Another Liberal Party after first week of campaign.
Rope-a-dope, what excellent work from Rudd’s Team. The Rodent looking every bit his 68 years. Just showed it to the whole country. Can’t wait to see the Labor campaign ads. Maxine must be smiling. KR nearly broke into Mandarin, he was so far in front! Bet Maxine wished he’d done so!
see Mr. Howard began with this american model, attack the man, attack his voting record (what a joke in this system!!) – attack his trustworthiness… and he ended with in a 1970s era diatribe…
Mr. Rudd coulda belted him on a number of issues – it annoys me he didn’t smack Howard with the $600 worse off claim ‘no that’s a lie Mr. Howard’ – it annoys that the 70% union officials wasn’t smacked ‘no, that’s a lie Mr. Howard…’ Rudd didn’t have to argue about percentages – it’s enough to say – ‘it’s a lie – your own treasurer says it isn’t true’.
Anyway, it was interesting to see… I wouldn’t have agreed to that format if I’d have been Rudd though…
No 728
Rudd voted against all the tax reforms, surplus budgets and so forth, but now agrees with them as leader.
Regardless of the polls which will no doubt go up and down and all over the place it is going to be a hard fight all the way to the day.
706
Lefty E Says:
Channel 9 has basically told Team Rodent to get stuffed, which is brilliant, and a model to all viewers!
And which also may be the single most important act from the MSM so far this year. If they are prepared to do that, then they might be thinking Howard will lose, and are currying favour with the likely new regime.
Of course Rudd could’ve said Howard voted against Medicare, Superannuation, the 1975 anti-Discrimination Act, Native Title, and a motion condemning Howard’s own comments against Asian immigration.
Apparently, most of the Federal Cabinet were there to support Howard. The local Libs could not get an audience.
The moderator had to ask them to take off their buffalo horns. Afterall. this was not the annual meeting of the loyal officers of the water buffalos.
But, that Costello can’t help himself.
All that bitterness and vindictiveness came out with his “Go Kevie” exclamation!
I said it before and I’ll say it again. and this will go for the whole campaign as it has gone for the whole year:
“Comprehensive win to Rudd: Substance, Clarity, Passion, Ideas.
And, guess what…he’ll be around for the next 10 years”
Howard can’t match this in his wildest dreams, and Costello don’t get the chance to put his case
No wonder the Cabinet were sitting like a bunch of private school bullies trying to intimidate Rudd, sitting in the front row barracking for their “team” captain…
Australians get a chance on 24 November to go for substance or “growth”, ie, that of the malignant kind as the likes of downer and costello and turnbull and nelson try to write their place in history….
And as for Glen Milne…his wife may work for the agency that runs Howard’s campaign, but do you think he gives or gets the proverbial…he’s not led by anything other then his commitment to quality journalism, just like the rest of the press gallery
They have exhibited the higest standards of fearless journalism and independent commentary over the last decade, not beholden to either thier employer or the media office who gives them the various scoops and drops, and they haven’t been subject to flooding or the other game plays of an incumbent administration
And nor did any senior journalists “sit” on their exclusive of Costello declaiming he was going to finally, ultimately, eventually take on Howard over the leadership
And nor was any journalist prepared to identify the Ministerial office to which he was taken to be exposed to the dirt file on Julia Gillard – write the story, yes. Tell the truth, gosh, i might burn my contact…Peter, surely you don’t want me to expose Julia as a communist… and after Shaun Carney’s biography showed how critical you were to the end of the cold war…
Win. Lose. Draw. our so called independent press gallery had better start to look a little bit more closely at their professsion…
If Labor wins against all odds (16 seats!) then the gallery and some of its members might have to start being honest with the public about their own behaviour, and not play the easy game of “gee, whiz, government is in control and I have this exclusive..”
thought game
imagine a labor opposition announced the tax cuts policy of Howards on day 1
and howard and costello announced rudds response?
the MSM would be creaming themselves to declare how masterul and inventive the Howard government was
And they can’t even call the fact that by putting out the tax issue straigt up, Howard and Costello BLINKED
We should get to vote on the political “aristocracy”, milne et al, let alone the parties
And since when was our press gallery so beholden to the PM of the day that they would, could accept a leader’s debate dictated by one “leader”
they really are neutered
I guess this is a problem for democracy on another day
just not sure if our democracy has the time?
comments?
GG, I think the whole thing was a debacle for the Libs. Howard’s performance, Costello’s adolescent behaviour, the tantrum about the worm. They will get a week of curry about all of it – which of course was why they wanted it over and done with ASAP. They will take a hit in next week’s polls, but they will still have four weeks to recover. The problem is, recover with what? They have fired their one big gun, tax cuts. Now all they have is more pork, which no-one believes. I stand by my predictions: Labor to win 20 seats. Maybe they won’t do as well as I suggested in WA, but I was being very conservative about NSW and Vic, so overall I’m a happy Labor hack tonight.
Remember to watch the Chaser guys next Wednesday: Howard is ambushed by a gigantic worm LOL
um…Janette?
and that’s just burnt an image into my brain that I could have done without!
John Howard caught “me-too-itis” during that debate.
Action on climate change? Me too.
Reconciliation? Me too.
Education revolution? Me too.
Reduction of combat troops in Iraq? Me too (we’ll put them in a training role instead).
I agree that many of the people who decide the election will have been watching Australian Idol (or Kath and Kim) tonight. But they may well also watch the Chaser and Rove in the next week. And you can bet your life that, while the debate substance will be forgotten, they’ll be talking about the worm, and pulling more stunts. And Rudd, the self-declared “friend of the worm” (and a very smart quip that was), will get some collateral benefit from this.
Howard really failed to give any clearer picture of what his government would do in the next three years. That is always a challenge for any government that’s been in power a long time, but it’s a challenge they must meet if they’re to get re-elected.
And Howard’s admission (by default) that you can be made redundant with no redunancy pay under WorkChoicds will not be forgotten by a lot of voters. I suspect Labor will keep reminding them. It was a good question from Rudd. Much better than that stupid George Bush question from Howard.
Notice Howard said Rudd had a Donald Horne, “lucky country” view of Australia? Either JWH has not read the book, or totally lacks a sense of irony.
Something about hospitals. Howard said a few months ago that the government intends to outspend Labor on health. So I guess that means a 2 or 3 billion announcement about something.
Shanahan also leaked something in his recent article. The fact he never misses a Liberal party branch meeting means he is usually right about their policies.
Kina: I agree! A win in the debate doesn’t guarantee election victory for Rudd, as we know from past elections. The Rodent will bribe and pork barrel like crazy for the next 5 weeks, Labor can’t be complacent!
No 741
The worm story is overblown. The Government and the ALP will surely release some big policy initiatives over the next week and it won’t take long for the media focus to shift away from the debate.
It’s a good start of the week for the ALP. I think Adam pointed out, that the ALP had a plan for a 5 week campaign. They now have the momentum and they will launch tomorrow with a big ticket item, probably education.
731
Generic Person Says:
Rudd voted against all the tax reforms, surplus budgets and so forth, but now agrees with them as leader.
You do understand the nature of compromise party politics, don’t you? You don’t have a lot of say until you are leader. You toe the party line. I think you will find it is the same in the Liberal party.
Rudd should’ve said “so are you proposing that Australia is an unlucky country?”
Where are the Libs?
They go poof!
re donald horne. actually I dont think he meant that. he was talking about resources and luck. there was a distinction there.
Costello has been unfairly maligned. He just yelled “Go Kevie” because he wasnts to get of Howard too.
How many swiniing votes would have watched the debate?
No 747
It takes courage and conviction to stand up for what you believe Just Me.
If Rudd truly agreed with the GST, then he wouldn’t have parroted it as a fundamental injustice in one of his initial speeches to the parliament.
No-one has actually read The Lucky Country, which is a pity because it’s a very perceptive book. What Horne actually said was: “Australia is a lucky country, run by second-rate people who share its luck.” Very true then and very true now. Except their luck seems to be running out.
Great debate, agree with all the sane people that Rudd won comfortably. The 9 feed will be a major backfire for whoever pulled it, and fit nicely into the ‘tricky and sneaky’ narrative that labor has built up on Howard. However, the Newspoll, which 7:30 rep on thursday said was out on monday (assuming day) will either reinforce, or undermine, the obvious momentum and forward looking narrative established by the debate. Alot of the campaign will be based on perception, and it is better for the PM to look firmly (but not overwhelmingly) on the out, so many swingers choose to back the ‘winner’.
Kina,
The only pigs I am aware of were the Liberal Cabinet in the front row.
So, what was that Howard was on about? An announcement, in two days, about Iraq.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22624030-601,00.html
“Treasurer Peter Costello was the loudest of a group reacting to one comment from Mr Rudd on economics, prompting the host, Sky News political editor David Speers, to remind the audience to be quiet. Mr Rudd said the Treasurer should take note.”
generic person, if i remeber correctly Rudd was talking about the compensation being an injustice, not the actual GST.
Generic and Isabella…
I have sat here for an hour now reading your sour grapes mixed with vinegar comments about everything from how Nine have somehow subverted democracy by running a computer graphic on their screen, how Rudd is allegedly a hypocrite, how the debate was rigged, how the whole thing was a fix…
… and I have to say that youse two are the biggest pair of whingeing, bad losers ever to have emerged from a drainpipe running underneath Liberal Party HQ.
In case you hadn’t noticed… the worm did not affect any of the two debaters’ utterances. They did not have earplugs telling them point-by-point how the naughty nematode was squirming, thus giving them an opportunity to adjust their answers to appeal to the viewers in faraway Sydney at the 9 studios.
Howard won the toss and used the opportunity to talk about how Don Bradman was going to rule in Aussie history classes from now on. Whose fault was bloody that?
He went into Iraq and still cannot admit he made any kind of a mistake in doing so? Is that Rudd’s problem, or Howard’s?
Despite the presence of as big a bunch of urgers in one place since Bugsy Siegel got the mob finance for building Las Vegas, in the forms of Hartcher, Uhlmann, Kelly and Oakes, Howard ducked, weaved, obfuscated and generally declined to answer any of their softball questions. Who is to blame for that? Osama bin Laden?
He brought up George Bush. Even George Bush doesn’t bring up George Bush nowadays. Yet somehow you thin the whole thing was a fiddle to favour Rudd?
You guys are off your rockers if you can’t accept that by any measure Rudd won this debate and won it handsomely. And you know what? Your bleating and bloviating here on these pages won’t make one whit of difference to the opinion of the general public, or to the result at large.
You lost. We won.
And for that I am truly grateful.
724
The Keegan Says:
633 DGW, nice one! Any more supercillious ministries for us?
From the wires…
In post-election jockeying for positions in the miraculously re-elected new Howard Ministry, Senator Bill Heffernan has announced he will not accept the position of Special Minister of State responsible for explaining to people the difference between an apology and saying sorry. Senator Heffernan claims he was too confused by what this position might actually entail and those nasty boys from the chaser would always be making fun of him. “I am instead going to take the Prime Minister’s generous offer as Minister from Practical Symbolism. As Minister for Practical Symbolism I will take full responsibility for ensuring that this government never does anything practicallly symbolic or symbolically practical in support of Indigenous People or even those people who come from overseas… I’m not sure what practical symbolism or symbolic practicality is, but I know I’m going to be having a lot of fun never saying sorry, never going for silly walks to promote reconcilliation and I am happy to announce any planned changes to the constitution have been cancelled due to their lack of practical effect”
In related developments, new political maestro Christopher Pyne is rumoured to be considering accepting the PM’s generous offer as the new Minister Assisting the Minister for the Promotion of the Great and Skilfull Game of Gentleman (formerly known more simply as Cricket). Mr Pyne is a little unfamiliar with the game, having not been allowed on the team at his exclusing boys school, but the PM has appointed Steve Waugh to tutor Pyne in the intricacies of the game for the next 4 weeks.
Politicians often only read the cover of a book. Maybe they think the same about the public, hence the name ‘WorkChoices’
It seems that Dollar Sweetie has forgotten that he had chances to be on that state tonight, but in 1994, 1995, 2006 and 2007, he gave up the opportunities.
Being reportedly everywhere as a win for Rudd.
Eg.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22625219-29277,00.html
Actually it is not the PM in this election, Howard should be referred to as the Leader of the Liberal party.
Bushfire Bill! Love your work.
I’ve read The Lucky Country…and the sequel.
I am old enough to have read The Lucky Country. And yes, the title is ironic.
However, most people haven’t read the book, and it was published a long long time ago. So many viewers would not have understood what Howard meant.
Oh Chris I didn’t realise you were here. “No-one except Chris Curtis.”
Why is the government making decisions about redeployment, or changing military roles while in caretaker mode?
More Howard dickheadery.
No 760
I did not accuse the debate of being rigged at all. Indeed that is a misrepresentation of what was said.
I merely lamented the fact that the leaders engaged in longwinded lectures rather than in free-flowing discussion.
Further, Rudd obfuscated on the issue of climate change. He failed to outline on a coherent plan. All he mentioned was Kyoto and some illusive target to come into place in 50 years.
Overall, I thought the debate was boring and quite underwhelming. I expected more journalist involvment rather than a replication of campaign-launch speeches.
If Howard goes down does anybody seriously think he will hang on from the backbench to avoid a by election?
Quick: those who think Rudd won the debate: Vote on http://www.news.com.au/poll/1,,5012572-5031348,00.html
The Young Liberals have already started stacking the poll. Rudd was miles in front, but over the last 20 mins, the vote for Howard has jumped. Get on there quick to put these poll-riggers in their place.
does anyone know if we’ll see a newspoll tonight?
#771 no
I read it too!
The Prime Minister has a great yearning
To improve our historical learning
He says “please give me your vote,
And I’ll teach history by rote,
If only you stop the worm’s turning!”
Howard chose the format, the moderator, the audience and he still lost.
I only just turned up, Adam…adn it took a while to read – okay, scan – all the comments. Which thread will reach the 1,000-mark?
No. He has repeatedly implied that if Rudd forms government, but he wins Bennelong, then he will be gone immediately.
He has only said that he will stay in parliament for all of the next term if he retains government, and even that is doubtful in my opinion.
I mean, he would be leaving politics, so the worst that could happen is for a Labor candidate be elected to Bennelong, but I doubt that would bother him much when he is gone.
.
.
Please. A lecture on conviction from the people who condemn any of their own who don’t fall in line with everything Howard says. Any member of the Liberal Party who stands for his convictions is destroyed Howard’s henchmen.
A couple of people have said that the people who will decide the election were all watching Idol tonight.
Luckily the core demographic of that show skews 70:30 to the ALP … if they are old enough to vote
753
Generic Person Says:
It takes courage and conviction to stand up for what you believe Just Me.
Yes it does. You mean just like Howard had the courage of his convictions to put the radical and regressive IR changes to the voters before the last elections, when he was already leader? No he didn’t. What he actually said before the last election was that the then 20 basic employment conditions would not be removed or altered. When Rudd confronted him with that bald faced lie Howard was completely exposed and simply had no answer for it. That was one of the biggest hits he took in the debate.
And thanks, nath (759), for that contextual detail.
Dear Poss @ 309
The Cttee @ codger Inc have long adhered to the time honoured principle of never pissing on a possum; and as my 10yo observed of the rodent wind worming & rudster refresh: He’s f***ed; if you could kindly lift your game on the ‘codger’ front it would be kindly appreciated.
PS Mr Kelly former apologist-at-Loose is just one thong short of jumping ship; not by choice I would think but his demeanour throughout the dissection was well…this is what happens to ‘my’ genius…sad really…
Rudster’s six off the ‘toolman’ was superb btw…
Howard wasn’t using the popular ‘lucky country’ terminology. He was saying that Rudd was using Horne’s analysis when talking about the CHina boom. its obvious.
Earlier post should have read: “Costello has been unfairly maligned. He just yelled “Go Kevie†because he wants to get rid of Howard too”.
Even so, some people seem to have understood my mangled typos.
Good to see Costello is being ridiculed for his childish behaviour, he’s had a very bad day has poor old Pete.
On another note, is Paul Kelly actually starting to warm to Rudd. His article in the Oz yesterday and his pulling Howard into line about not answering a question is starting to make me wonder.
#772
The validation for that poll is all done client-side using Javascript. It would be easy to whip up a script that votes repeatedly for one option.
But I think I’ll go to bed instead.
On topic: I think Kevin Rudd won the debate, but he’s not going to win the election by a wormslide. I’m still sticking with my May prediction of 82 seats to Labor. Most assessments of the debate that I have read tend to have partisans giving victory to their own side. It’s lucky that I am objective.
Yep. One of those great Aussie mass debates. It’s part of our great heritage our beloved PM was referring to at the end of his smashing victory over the representative of the evil one. You know the sort of thing they got up to around the drover’s camp fires and what they had to put bromide in the diggers’ tea for during times of military conflict.
Oops,
forgot to add
and talk about me-toism
Howard was obviously coahced that the education revolution was biting …so what doe he say?
‘My education revolution, if I can borrow a phrase….”
Gee, maybe our MSM can get on to that reference?
Rudd has set the policy agenda for the last year and the next decade:
economy, ie, infrastructure; economy, ie, education; economy, ie, climate change; economy, ie, broadband; economy, ie, child care; economy, ie, health; economy, ie, efficient fed-state relations; economy: our future
he’s kept it simple, and the economy is more than just buying votes (and so why won’t Peter reveal the bracket creep trick he plays and tries to hid via FOI conculsive certificates – just ask the SMH?)
the economy is about investing in capacity build: infrastructure, education, time between mum, dad and the kids……
and then superannuation in substance, not tax breaks
its not merely minding the shop….its about reform
Peter, you and your boss are good shopkeepers, and Napoleon would say you are true Englanders
But heaven forbid you ever have real crises to deal with
Rudd showed his complete ability to see and manage the real challenges we face
And they don’t revolve simplyaround the question: How do I buy enough votes to be PM…..
If costello had a real vision for the future, why haven’t we heard it?
Because its been stolen by JWH because
But he can’t steal Rudd’s vision
Sure, but Howard’s probably is that most people watching probalby have no idea who Donald Horne is.
The funnier answer Howard gave was when he said “to use that well known Australian expression, Mr Rudd is trying to have two bob each way.”
What a moron, why doesn’t he just use the statement, rather than telling us how Australian he is being? He does this rubbish all the time, I guess Crosby-Textor says it appeals to the ocker vote.
761 DGW, gems, all gems, keep em coming! (Particularly if you can have a quick change of heart and find a ministry whereby Pyne get his head shoved up a ruminant’s you know what).
I didn’t think I would be quoting REM on the forum, but
“Hey, Kev, shake a leg… may be you are crazy in the head…”
By contrast Howard was steady and solid and on message and not afraid to venture into Labor’s territory in the end.
(I’ll concede one thing, Howard was boring to tears, but rock solid).
Rudd was treasonous on security and terrorism.
Rudd’s idea of education solutions is to peddle old laptops.
Rudd’s claim to understanding technology fell in a total heap when he used the term “information highway”, a term not heard since the days of the “Multi-Function Polis”; and about as redundant.
On the worm, I hope the Coalition punishes Nine for not playing by the rules when it is returned. (Even journalists should pay heed to rules.)
Slam-dunk to Howard.
Election result: at least status quo at HoR; Coalition majority in the senate of 2.
I might have give thought to retiring the comments name. The job of explaining that has been done by Mr Rudd himself better than I ever could.
Not a good image….
“two bob each way”
He should have said. When Iw as growing up that was the expression that people used. But Im not too sure because I was at home baking scones with mother.
“You are old, father William,” the young man said,
“And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head–
Do you think, at your age, it is right?”
“In my youth,” father William replied to his son,
“I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I’m perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again.”
No 794: thanks Piers, off to bed now. Your “line” of thought is a little out of whack tonight.
Generic Person
No 728
This is compromise politics. When it doesn’t cost you the possibility of being PM you would vote on principle. Vote against it. He has to play a dead bat to the Libs economic strong suit. He did this very well.
It is the same for Peter Garret. He looks bad for not standing up for the pulp mill, but he can’t do anything at all from opposition. Lose the battle and win the war.
Kina. 732. I was also disappointed that Rudd does not hold Keating up as a great eonomic manager. A few months ago Keating came out and showed what a great sham the Howard and Costello Economic Miracle really is. Rudd wont touch him because when every voter thinks of him all they think of his recession and 17%.
Howard was trying to suggest Rudd is in league with terrorists: if he continues to pursue this line of attack, it’ll backfire on him badly.
Done, sinic, 773. A number of undecides, I note.
Hello AUSTRALIANS, I am the AUSTRALIAN prime minister, I am TRUE BLUE, DINKY DIE, and I think Mr Rudd is having TWO BOB EACH WAY.
(Particularly if you can have a quick change of heart and find a ministry whereby Pyne get his head shoved up a ruminant’s you know what).
Yes please, yes please. I will pay good money to see that.
794
Why Rudd Must Lose Says:
Rudd was treasonous on security and terrorism.
That sort of vacuous vicious drivel is precisely why your mob will lose.
HH @ 800: I didn’t get that from the Pm’s comments, tbh. When was that made/ inferred?
Even though Ch.9 went in with the fix, the worm still took a dive.
There must be a way Crosby Textor could factor this into their “annelid analysis” of The Debate. These guys are pretty thorough.
I think we might see a newspoll at the strike of twelve. Hope our beautiful carriage that took us away from the debate doesnt turn into a pumpkin!
Anyway, get your predictions in quick (if it comes out tonight), I’m going with 54-46, but really I’m hoping for 57-43+++. Bias-o-metre swinging to the left
Chris Curtis,
I was getting a bit worried that I might have been the only objective one to score Mr Rudd as the winner of the debate, so it is good to know that that makes two of us.
Thank you as well for your reply a few days ago to my query about the 1957 split and also for your previous posts covering some important political history. Your insights and efforts are appreciated.
News Com Debate poll overun by Liberal hacks, they should check the IP’s flooding the voting.
Howard 47% (5440 votes) Kevin Rudd 46% (5314 votes) It was a draw 5% (619 votes) Total votes Total of 11373 votes
The poll was running 65% Rudd 35% Howard before these hackers started.
Just out of curiously, I just asked my daughter (soon to turn 18) whether she knew the meaning of: “to use that well known Australian expression, Mr Rudd is trying to have two bob each way.â€
Is it something about money? she replied. I explained to her what it meant, and that “two bob” was 20 cents, and that John Howard had said it in the debate.
She said she doubted that few people her age would know the proper meaning of the phrase, though they could probably make a guess. So much for a “well-known” phrase!
Crikey cobber, stone the crows, the old feller sure knows how to do the lingo with those hip young folk.
Expect a Sid Marris story about the online poll in tomorrow’s online Australian.
Don’t worry, they’ll need to go to bed very soon.
Why Rudd Must Lose,
Your post at 794 is as unrealistic as your moniker.
I think Rudd should have announced a second debate in three weeks time and the end of the debate and said it will be a town hall style meeting with randomly chosen people or people from one marginal electorate. And do it out in Makin or Stirling. Then Howard would have had to respond and look weak.
“The net worth of Hillary Clinton’s campaign is $48 million, more than twice as much as the net worth of all the Republican campaigns combined.”
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Yeah, the libs have been baking lots of different cookies to give to news.com.au
Shows On,
Reminds of the time I was entertaining a foreign guest while driving round Victoria. Of course being an avid AFL fan I had the game of the day playing as we drove around.
I still remember the dialogue.
Jesaulenko grabs the pill, turns on a sixpence, sells the dummy and goes bang………….Another sausage roll.
My guest was totally bemused.
But it is an AUSTRALIAN phrase! It proves that Mr Howard, our beloved leader, is more AUSTRALIAN tham Mr Rudd who is only partly AUSTRALIAN.
Are you sure your daughter is AUSTRALIAN? Maybe not as AUSTRALIAN as the prime minister, but at least somewhat AUSTRALIAN?
Sorry, I just found Howard’s introduction hilarious. Why didn’t he just USE the statement… it is like Andrew Robb talking about SUBSTANCE as if it is some abstract metaphysical concept.
But you can be sure that Mr and Mrs J. Howard know exactly who Horne was and what he thought of them and their ilk. I am sure that they frequently burn any copies of his works, especially his last work, Looking for leadership: Australia in the Howard years, that they come across at Liberal Party jumble sales.
No 813
Just proves that the size of the warchest determines who wins, not the policy substance.
“two bob each way”
Might be showing my age, but two bob is a two shilling or a florin coin.
Sunday October 21, 10:08 PM
Rudd’s odds shorten after debate win
Labor leader Kevin Rudd’s odds of winning the federal election have shortened after Sunday night’s debate with Prime Minister John Howard, according to one betting agency.
Lasseters Sportsbook said Labor had firmed as favourite for the November 24 poll, down to $1.60 from $1.70 before the debate.
The Coalition’s odds weakened from $2.15 to $2.30.
.
.
.
Looks like the whole world thinks Rudd won the debate.
Anyone else pick up that JWH refered to his team as “Shadow Ministers”?
I regard that gaffe as exposing Howards nervousness as well as the fact that he is way past his use-by-date.
Best comment on this blog was the blogger who referred to Howard as coming across as a “Grumpy Grandpa Simpson”. Simply priceless.
Oh the vernacular…. A response to the PM
“Don’t come the raw prawn with me John. I think when you first got elected people thought you were a beaut bloke; but now it’s time you pissed off you silly old drongo.
“Geez, I’m as dry as a dead dingo’s donger, can someone get me a XXXX”
Sorry, that was perhaps a bridge too far. Why does everyone want to channel Hawkie in 07?
I think this is brilliant! The fact it is about an Australian who’s surname is “Jesaulenko” makes it all the more so.
My guest was totally bemused.]
I once watched the rugby league state of origin, but with Roy and H.G.’s commentary with a friend from France. She couldn’t make head or tail of it.
Hey, a Clinton is better than a Bush. Baby steps, after that fall off the cliff 7 years ago, albeit by a florida push rather than a collective jump.
Shows On #816: Yes I’m sure my daughter is Australian. She likes to go out late at night and get on the piss, and tries to avoid school and work as often as possible.
If there was an education revolution, my family would be guillotined.
But I luv ‘em all.
And if I wasn’t indulging in this post-debate chat, they’d be on MySpace. I’m pleased the Kevvie will soon give us a rebate for this.
Why, thank you Fargo61 for your kind words. Perhaps between us we can lift the politeness around here.
Speaking of war chests.For all those a little short on cash. I heard that Howard is paying letter box droppers in Bennelong because he can’t get enough volunteers and he hire a second shop front on the main strip.
That’s a common misunderstanding of US politics. US elections cost a lot of money, but quality candidates attract the money to pay for them. Hillary is rich because she’s a winner, not vice versa.
Damn, it seems Rudd missed it as well. If he hadn’t he could’ve said “Mr Howard just mistakenly called his ministers ’shadow ministers’, well, I think they have been acting like shadow ministers on health, education, and climate change…”
There once was a man
Who stood in a great hall
The problem for he
Was that he could not see
How to get down
Without fall
Just amusing myself.
754
Adam Says:
I have, and I disagree with his views, Australia is a lucky country but when it comes to resources so is Brazil and Argentina. Why the different outcomes? It is my view you will find the answer in the question “Why does Australia have the largest middle class.?” The answer is not because we are second rate people.
It is a question the Labor party should study, they have a few things to to be proud of, however the outcome was helped along by forward thinking people from all political leanings.
Burgey, Howard’s statement that his foreign policy won’t be determined by terrorists I interpreted as a veiled attack on Rudd and other members of the left who oppose the Iraq War. Maybe I’m reading too much into it?
That’s exactly what I thought when he made that statement. He wanted to tip toe up to the line and create an impression, but without a direct smear.
This is Republican party campaigning 101.
That news Ltd use their on-line polls as a source of serious data to write articles proves the GG to be purley a hack paper. At best they measure reader demographic at worst they measure script kiddies or dedicated party supporters voting their heads off. But represent the opinions of the general public?
Burgey @ 804 – I assume Howard Hater is referring to JWH’s line in the national security section, which was along the lines of “we will never surrender our foreign policy approach to terrorists” – the implication of which is that Labor would. The “cut and run” rhetoric really won’t play over here the way it does (or did) in the US.
No 827
That’s absolutely wrong. I’m a member of the Liberal Party and we have 750 volunteers in Bennelong alone.
I’ve got a nasty feeling the Rodent might run the line “A Vote For Rudd Is A Vote For Terrorists”. Remember he’s a desperate man!
I reckon the best approach with the news.com.au poll is to let it go and don’t try to fight the hax0rs. Let them try to write a story making their poll seem legitimate tomorrow when it’s 90-10 in favour of Howard and every other report is about how Rudd won.
“two bob is a two shilling or a florin coin”.
Florins! Why doesn’t Howard bring them back? And petrol would be cheaper if it was priced in guineas.
Strike a light, Johnny! Life was better under the old money. We made do without fibres to our nodes, and we dealt with those bloody Kyoto protocols in their midget submarines.
You’ll need them.
That would be Exclusive Brethren GP.
charles,
As you say, forward thinking people from all parties have made a contribution to Australia’s progress. One reason Australia has he largest middle class is the rise of unionism, its conversion to parliamentary politics and the development of the conciliation and arbitration system in Australia that helped share the wealth. But the topic is too big for here and now.
Anyone into masochism, here is Spamahan at the GG explaining that Rudd won the debate only “because he didn’t lose” LOL
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22458164-5013871,00.html
Mind you I don’t understand all Dennis is saying – what on earth is a “Rudd-centric worm”? Does Kev need a course of tablets?
I found Rudd’s performance a little disappointing. I sometimes found myself wondering “haven’t I heard this speech somewhere else before?”.
That being said, Howard could have given a speech worthy of a Noble Peace Prize and it wouldn’t have convinced me to vote for the cretin. He can say what he likes, but his morally deficient performance over the last 11 years has left me counting down his days with manic euphoria.
I did however like Rudd’s sincere response on reconciliation. If you can’t agree with bestowing the deserved respect to our nation’s original people, then you must be a very cold being indeed.
To be fair, they only use the bull$#|! online polls that appear on The Australian homepage, not the news.com.au page.
They go with the premium bull$#|! , not generic bull$#|! because THEY KNOW bull$#|!, because they OWN bull$#|! .
No 840
Nope. It looks like we easily outnumbered Maxine’s poor showing at the Granny Smith Festival. Totally outclassed by Howard.
The worm is a Joke as has been made clear in the past, to think the worm has given past contenders like beazley and latham the victory over our Honerable PM, this goes to show the farsical nature of it, those who watched the chanel 9 coverage which infact was utilising a Pirated feed of the National Debate are pathetic, You should have watched the debate without the worm and formed your own opinion, most of you have been seemingly to fixiated on the so called worm of popularity. To even listen to the debated topics, Kevin Rudd failed to answer most questions asked of him and most of the policies or ideas he put forward were mere Mirror reflections of Howards already proposed and some already implemented Ideas, he also became very boring going over the same boring proposals and ideas of creating more beaurocracies to give more of his union buddies jobs.
Kevin Rudd acts like a child, playing the blame game, nothing is ever his fault when his party slips up or even when he himself clearly does, how could people even consider such a small man worthy of the Top Job in this country, We are a strong nation because we are all reaping the benefits of a well managed economy, it doesnt run itself nor is The PM responsable for all that we benefit from, its his strong Team, Peter Costello an economic manager whom would be sort after in any government body throughout the world if he were available, Alexander Downer a 3rd generation dipolomat with the ability to successfully negotiate our position in the global market, to hand our Country over to a bunch of Unqualified Union biased morons would have dyer affects to this strong economy we all benefit from.
Take it easy all and remember a Vote for labour is a vote for a Union control economy somewhat like a Dictatorship, you wont have a say in your workplace and nolonger will employers be able to reward you fairly for hard work and dedication, fear of Union control will drive employment down and unsettle the currently afluent job market, that has been created by Industrial Relations reform.
Generic Person
836
The letter box dropping is what I heard. No evidence as such. Although you now have the second shop. Is this correct. Did you go to the Granny Smith Festival?
Yeah, that will win you a lot of votes. You’ve tied up the Granny vote.
Thank you Mr Speaker…
Of somewhat more importance, where is the bloody Newspoll?
832, 833, 835 – thanks guys – more dog whistling eh?
Shows on #770 (having trouble keeping up)
‘Dickheadery’ is very like ‘f*cktardery’… Clearly you and Possum attended the same school!
OMG, all three on the GG clip have lost their marbles – even Sid Marris claimed that “Howard was stronger”. Kelly thought Howard started very strong and only lost it later. Absolute nutbags.
The Granny Smith apple is an excellent example of the Lucky Country at work. Granny Smith found the wild apple tree growing in a creek bed. No need for years of cross-breeding apples, or genetic modification – it was just there. A bit like uranium, or iron ore in the Pilbara.
No wonder John Howard attended the Granny Smith Festival today.
Dear me. Looks like the Libs are back from the post mortem.
He probably does. And not just about Rudd. He’s probably thinking of Howard and ‘told you so’.
Jen mentioned Costello and Downer behaving like recalcitrant schoolboys … I’ve often had that feeling about Downer: that he’d love to set up the old bag of flour over Rudd’s door. Always worked a treat at boarding school.
Didn’t see the early parts – wife cannot stand Howard saying anything (say, maybe she’s in the demograph Nine use for their Worm). Caught the last 20 minutes or so. Rudd creamed Howard big-time for that period.
I can understand why further debates are off the table.
how did the union stall go at the granny smith day
At the start Howard was trying to be agressive, he wasn’t composed and measured, he was kind of trying to channel Costello in question time.
I wish! He can do math, I can’t
Nice forum, wish I’d found it earlier.
I started out watching the debate on Sky but switched to 9 because they had mentioned the worm earlier in the week and i wondered if it would be there, luckily it was – makes things much more interesting.
Anyone questioning the effectiveness of the worm should note that when Howard talked about not saying “Sorry” it went pretty positive for him. Sadly that is the way plenty of Australians feel. The worm captured it quite well.
Interesting that when Howard got the question re being the second longest serving PM and people being ready for a change he didn’t say, well we have that planned – vote for me and you’ll get Costello – obviously still hasn’t got used to the idea himself or knows the public isn’t so keen on it either (out of interest, why aren’t preferred PM polls done Rudd vs Howard/Costello???)
Like others have said, good on Rudd for sticking up for Hawke and Keating and the fact they set in place the changes to the economy that largely have us where we are now. Could have done more of it when Howard said he voted for those changes when they where made by saying something like “is the real reason you voted for them that you were too scared to make them yourself when you were treasurer?”.
The wall to wall Labor government argument needs a better response – stopping the buck passing is good but i think they should add “how can we be blamed for Liberal oppositions being so piss poor right across the country”
15% union officials, oops membership, in the private sector – easy to combat by getting figures on how many people are covered by union negotiated agreements/awards – would still be more than 50% of the population at a guess.
Overall, easy win for Rudd but Howard has never won one of these debates and with $20 billion surplus still to spend isn’t worm food yet – unfortunately!!!!
p.s. why would Howard talk about history in the close – has me totally confused.
There once was a man from Bennelong;
Who stayed in the job for too long.
Then along came a Rudd;
Who with a whack and a thud.
Sent him off with his future fund.
No 836
Yes I did go to the Granny Smith Festival and the PM was overwhelmingly the more popular candidate. Maxine was literally nowhere to be seen.
We do have two offices but one is for the general public, the other is the base from which general campaigning is conducted.
Rudd should be straight out the gates tomorrow, saying “That was a great start but there are many more issues to discuss, and more policies to be announced in the coming weeks that we should debate. I look forward to two more debates – let’s have one at the end of Week 3 and one at the end of Week 5″. Make Howard articulate his reasons for not having any more debates.
Those who have only joined us in the hope of influencing individual opinions need not waste their time. Almost all bloggers are evidently rusted on to a particular ideology and party. But hey, if your getting paid to write tripe like that, you should ask for a raise. Oh thats right, your all on AWA’s!
I dont think Rattus did badly tonight (though he was let down by the Crew Members in the audience), its just that Rudd did very well.
He was positive for the most part, spoke clearly and was obviously well prepared. Still, he went on the attack from time to time and showed that he can do that when it suits.
The worm i think is a bit if a joke. I was thinking that they must have gotten an audience that was a bit biased. But then again, Rudd has been ahead in the polls al year and its people voting in opinion polls (like the worm) that have put him there.
All in all, entertaining, a good showing by Rudd, a lackluster but workman-like one by Rattus, and a very poor one by his Crew.
‘Union biased morons would have dyer affects to this strong economy’ The effects on the economy would be red dye, I assume.
I actually thought Shanahan’s comments were fairly reasonable. He conceded that Rudd won. Kelly’s become a pompous old blowhard, which is sad because he used to be very good – like 30 years ago. But neither of them are in the same class of evil as Milne, who is no more than a Liberal Party whore and hardly even bothers pretending otherwise.
839
Antonio Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Strike a light, Johnny! Life was better under the old money. We made do without fibres to our nodes, and we dealt with those bloody Kyoto protocols in their midget submarines.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
But we still had our occasional laptop. (Nudge nudge, wink wink.)
No 867
Maybe you are miffed because they’re telling it how it really was, not how you would rather it be.
Generic Person,
You can belittle Maxine all you like and she may not win but the fact is she is giving Howard a run for his money. If the Libs aren’t worried then why is Howard spending so much time in Bennelong compared to past elections. Even if she loses she has done her job and kept your boy on his toes.
Thank you for your indulgence Mr Speaker…
Hopefully In some marginals – Bennelong perhaps.
Generic Person
There were photos of Maxine dancing and having a great old time. In actual fact it was reported to have been marred by mob violence of angry political supporters wearing purple and black shirts. Throwing apples. I heard Iemma had to send in the water cannon to crack down.
Would your vote count in the Bennelong electorate?
*860
The reason howard didnt make the economic changes if you know your political history from that time is that the Prime Minister Mr malcom Fraser would not allow him to and being the treasure to the government led by Malcom Fraser he did as he was told, many moons have pasted since then and unlike Labour Party members, Liberals are allowed to cross the floor so to speak without fear of any repercussions from there own party, that is why Howard made it clear that he supported any economic changes that were to the betterment of our economy Howard “a True Economic Conservative”
Sheesh, I say something nice about Shanahan and I still get slagged!
Yes, see the government was actually only allowed to invite 199 supporters, because Milne had already been invited by the national press club.
That is why a reckon any Labor supporter that spends a cent on a murdoch paper now or ever in the future is just giving them reward for dishonestly and corrupting the media role in trying to elect Howard.
Don’t do it – if murdoch’s annual cirulation drops 30% because it loses the readers it is pooping all over then so it should.
well technically they had 203 in the crowd if you count speers, uhlmann and kelly
That will teach you.
“Yes I did go to the Granny Smith Festival and the PM was overwhelmingly the more popular candidate. Maxine was literally nowhere to be seen.”
Probably because she was surrounded by hordes of ordinary punters when she started her dancing routine. You know, the ordinary punters. Those people who were getting in your way all day, who wanted to enjoy the festival before shafting your beloved leader.
(By the way, can I have the number of Isabella’s dealer? Or is she freaked out by the Drug Squad surveillance?)
Why do people think Uhlmann is bias? Doesn’t he work for the ABC, isn’t he a left wing communist trade unionist ready for a seat on Rudd’s front bench?
P Gardiner, they obviously aren`t paying you per sentence.
No 870
I did not belittle Maxine at all. I just said that she was conspicuously absent for most of the event’s duration. It is a factual observation.
The nightly news snippets do not actually capture the reality. Her dancing escapade was mainly during the your rights at work parade segment after which she left because the PM became the main focus as he made the journey to his vehicle. Bennelong supporters swamped him from all sides, wishing him good luck and commending his performance. It took about an hour for him to get to his car, just a few hundred metres from the stage upon which he delivered his speech.
The ALP did not even have a stall on Rowe street, the main drag of the event. The Greens and Democrats had a bigger presence.
Indeed, the most belittling members of the whole event were the Howard hating protesters that kept heckling abuse at the PM.
This has been comprehensively refuted by Peter Costello in the book John Winston Howard:
http://www.dymocks.com.au/ProductDetails/ProductDetail.aspx?R=9780522853346&Producode=9780522853346
You should read it to find out what everyone else already knows – Howard was a failure as treasurer, who didn’t have the guts to reform anything. He only put an end to the bottom of the harbour tax evasion scheme because the opposition called him out over it. If it was Howard’s choice it would still be in operation.
My favourite moment of the debate: Rudd on reconcilation, with good humanising hand gestures (for a change!) saying its just about respect, and building a bridge.
It was like a school counsellor explaining social skills 101 to a yr 9 social retard.
“if you’re nice to other people, Johnny, they might like you back..”
Which was especially effective after Howard’s bizarre distinction between sorry and apologising, or whatever it was. You could almost hear the national headscratch. Huh?
Sid Marris – Howard was stronger. HAHAH.
#843 Wysiwyg
Yeah, maybe shanahan’s headline will be “RUDD comes in SECOND LAST”
Soviet propaganda 101
Just checked the newspoll site – most recent poll is Tassie Marginals dated 19.10.07 – showing libs in front in Bass & Braddon.
I take it that’s old news? They all start to blur after a while.
Actually, that is a lie. Fraser came out and said Howard was lying and if wanted to prove that he wasn’t lying bring out his submissions and memos and paper work to the contrary. Howard shut up and never mentioned again. It was discussion between all the parties held in the GG. Howard did not want, support or intend any of those changes Keating/Hawke bought in. AND he complained bitterly against the supperannuation.
Old Piers has his “Heiner Affair” and Milne has his “Heineken Affairs”
Liberal Party policy is to have a surplus of punctuation by using it as little as possible. Hence P Gardiner and Glen’s never using it.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/rudds-decisive-win/2007/10/21/1192940905644.html
theres a good healdine
I checked the standing orders, and those inter-jections were ruled in order, on the grounds that we live in a liberal democracy.
I thought liberals knew a thing or two about liberty? Oh well, after the worm fiasco, maybe not…
I like the style of Tabitha and Glen. So I thought I would give it a go.
Rudd= Fresh and dynamic leadership
Howard= Old and Stale leadership.
How did I go?
Why were teh debate audience so well-behaved? They didn’t even clap or cheer at any stage of the debate, except after it was over. Why bother inviting 200 die-hard supporters from each side if they can’t do anything?
I would have liked the old music hall thing – hiss and boo the villains. Yell “he’s behind you!”. I had no problem with Costello interjecting. I wish Howard and Rudd had interrupted each other a bit. In fact, it appeared that one’s microphone was turned off when the other had the floor. A couple of times either Rudd or Howard made interjections, but the sound was muffled and off-mike. You don’t get a debate if you do that…you get a serious of answers to questions without notice.
No 889
I’m growing to dislike Mr Akerman the more time progresses. Even I, as a Liberal Party member, recognise the nonissue that is the Heiner affair and yet he bleats on about it on a weekly basis. Dumb.
newspoll on 19th is old news, but labor was in front in both seats
Generic Person
Are you worried that Howards going to lose in Bennelong?
Currrent polling shows him behind and Maxine is a high profile candidate.
You can argue the spin but the numbers don’t lie.
In the end, Id say biggest loser was Costello. Thats smirking schoolboy routine is close to the 2007 Latho handshake.
He’s gotta remember he’s running for PM this time too. He appeared seriously unfit for office tonight.
Antonio – if you are Howard you invite them because you know they are disciplined. It gives the public a feel of it being in front of ‘real people’ whilst Howard knows that they are all party hacks and will not do anything stupid like clap or jeer
Piers Ackerman – does anybody read him? At all? Maybe the Howard’s.
According to the debate rules, they weren’t allowed to make any noise.
But of course Peter Costello couldn’t help himself… I guess they needed some special rules for special people.
No 897
I’ve done the grassroots campaigning and the polls are not reflective of the true state of affairs in Bennelong.
Indeed, the betting market shows the PM clearly in the lead.
The fact is that people like the idea of the PM being their local member and his infinite recognition with the electorate simply bowls over Ms McWho.
Howard will not lose Bennelong. McKew in Bennelong is a two term strategy.
‘McKew in Bennelong is a two term strategy.’
Well, a two-month strategy if the ALP wins.
No doubt that for some that is true. But what happens to Bennelong when the Emperor in Waiting Costello takes over? Are they excited by that?
GP @902.
Gee, and your biased, self serving assessment is the end of the debate!
Talk to those outside Howard’s office, you might get a different reponse.
Howard will lose Bennelong and that will be sorry enough for Mr Bennelong.
The Asian community has created a support Maxine group – and to quote from the BBC one Asian resident called mr Howard a liar, cheat etc etc. And the issues with them? Mrs Hanson & Howard tacit acceptance of her anti-Asian stance, his own anti-Asian comments and so forth.
It helps that Maxine is proving to be a real natural with people and speaks so intelligently and with authority that they all sit up and take notice.
873
P Gardiner
Howard opposed the superannuation reforms of Keating, one of the single biggest and most important social and economic reforms in Australia’s history, the funds from which have become a huge and growing source of investment capital.
Generic Person 895 you are sooo right, at least about Piers.
I have now given up the petty self-indulgence of taunting him on his blog by listing the many people that must be involved in his conspiracy by now – including John Howard for stopping Rofe’s report from being tabled. It was amusing watching him trying to answer that. Called me a grub, the silver tongued old darling.
“Howard opposed the superannuation reforms of Keating”
Apparently Howard’s opposition was quite bitter, a bit like his opposition to sanctions on apartheid South Africa.
No 907
But the fact is that there are thousands of Asians in Bennelong, and many were also appreciative of the PM at the Festival, and there were several also campaigning with us who were able to engage in bilingual conversation where appropriate.
Just because we’re all poll junkies doesn’t mean they are the be all and end all of the debate.
No 906
I have campaigned broadly around NSW. I’m not that narrow-minded to believe polls only.
Still no newspoll – should we expect it soon, or can I go to bed now?
882 Generic Person Says: October 22nd, 2007 at 12:05 am
No. That’s what’s called a ’subjective’ observation. Funny how most liberal party members fail to understand the difference.
Why Howard can’t win
There were studies carried out in the United states which analysed the commentary style of candidates for each of the US presidential elections over the last fifty years or so.
They analysed all forms of media commentary and gave it a scaling in regard to positivity and negativity. On analysing the comments of presidential candidate prior and during the electoral campaign it was very predictive of their chance of winnning. positivity and optimisim were key. The candidates who were more positive ended up winning. I believe Rudd is winning on this aspect of the campaign and it is one of the reasons he is leading in the polls. Martin Seligman was the guy who carried out the study. Interesting reading.
RIGHT ON!
Lefty E tells me that he is going to be Stanley Bruced.
Well it is PURE SOCIALISM forcing people to save, and making employers contribute…
The fact all the money gets invested on the stock exchange is AS AUSTRALIANS WOULD SAY – “neither here nor there”.
It is interesting the shift in attitude at the Nine network. Since CVC Australia and it’s head, Adrian McKenzie took over, we are seeing a more even handed take on current affairs. I could never imagine Tracy Grimshaw embarrasing the Prime Minister like she did the other day if a Packer was running Nine. Good on Nine for using the worm and giving the two finger salute to the Liberal Party.
The Australian probalby won’t completely update their page until 1 AM EST. (2 AM in Tas)
Gp @ 911,
If that is true then you know the swing in NSW is about 8%. More than enough to take care of Howard eh!
Yes Im a little puzzled at the newspoll no-show. Maybe the ABC misreported it as a monday newspoll, but i doubt it. If it is out tomorrow, theyre keeping it close to their chests.
Bennelong is looking close, but as the campaign goes on and it looks more likely that labor will be swept in then Howard will also be swept aside in Bennelong.
The big negative against Howard in Bennelong are the Exclusive Brethren who run as his cheer squads at all his meetings. Can spot them a mile off even with out their pig face masks.
No 913
Bloody hell Pi, you’re more one-eyed than most around here.
She didn’t even have a stall from which to hand out material or campaign face-to-face.
#911 Generic Person Says: October 22nd, 2007 at 12:20 am
I don’t know… you believe a persons appearance to you personally amongst thousands (or lack there-of), spending time around people just like yourself, makes you objective.
I think you believe what you want to believe.
Apparently Howard’s opposition was quite bitter, a bit like his opposition to sanctions on apartheid South Africa.
And didn’t Howard do an about face on the use of sporting sanctions for political purposes and support them for Zimbabwe and cricket? The number of times this guy has changed horses at his convenience beggars belief. When he claimed during the debate that Rudd was a reponsibility avoider, while he (Howard) always took responsibillity and never passed the buck, my hypocrisy meter exploded.
Would only all media was non-partisan and let Austrlians decide. OR at least present equally quantities of opposing partisanship.
Thanks Shows On. Hope your right or it will be another pointless exercise in my otherwise meaningless existence.
Time to recall the classic line from Keating, on Howard hiding his true self through the 96 campaign, me-tooing on medicare etc
“When John Howard says, Im not John Howard, I’m a hedgehog, is he John Howard or is he a hedgehog? The Canberra press gallery says, No, no, he’s told us he’s not John Howard, he’s a hedgehog. So he’s a hedgehog. The fact is, Howard never changed, he was always the same suburban reactionary.”
Wrong. GP took a survey at Liberal Party HQ and couldn’t find any indication of a swing to Labor at all. So that settles it. No swing to Rudd.
No 922
Just as you do, I wholeheartedly presume. Your rabid anti-Howardism is unmatched.
PS spare a thought for that poor bastard 3 years ago who brought out that book on Abbott and Latham “the two most promising pollies of their generation”!
Try the two greatest whackos.
No 927
I took no such survey. All I’m saying is that it will be a close contest and the wide poll gap is not reflective of the true situation. Stop clutching at straws.
Shows on at 686 says:
“Where the hell is the country headed when Liberal party hacks try to tell TV stations what they can and can’t broadcast?
Where the hell are these people from? Shouldn’t they be running a junta in Burma? Or public relations for North Korea?”
Absolutely. This stinks of political censorship.
I reckon this will be the real issue coming out of the debate: Which Lib pin-head tried to censor Channel 9 and whether he or she did it on the orders of someone else (and if so, who).
There’s questions to be answered boys and girls and I think we’re all entitled to answers.
# 928 Generic Person Says: October 22nd, 2007 at 12:26 am
There you go again… everyone that points to howards past actions (children overboard is a good one) suffers from ‘rabid anti-howardism’
My view of the world is balanced. I stand on the side that doesn’t demonize helpless people to achieve political ends. You clearly stand on the other side.
Paul k,
So it’s a big misunderstatement or something?
Generic Person
I have also done some grass roots campaigning in the area and I perceive a great deal of postive reaction to Maxine. The large influx of Korean migrants and the electoral boundary changes have put Howard under pressure.
Howard likes the money Asia brings in but he won’t embrace the idea of them being real Aussies. They love the money thats why they vote for him. They also love education so Rudd could still sway them.
The numbers don’t lie. The last poll I heard Maxine was still in front.
#928
Generic Person Says:
“Your rabid anti-Howardism is unmatched.”
Bugger that! I’ll match Pi’s rabid anti – howardism any day. His concession speech will be the political highlight of the year. I’ll be staying up for it AND stay sober (ish) till its done.
# 847 P Gardiner
Mate, go outside and punish yourself. You’re a complete knob and self opinionated tosser… with that much bile for a brain you have no right to be advising others.
Not sure about how the PBL management/ownership is structured these days, but has Nine Network’s hardball with the Libs got something to do with……
“PBL demerger hits tax-law hurdle”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/pbl-demerger-hits-taxlaw-hurdle/2007/10/15/1192300686210.html
????????
GP at 927,
Relax. It was a joke. All I’m saying is that Maxine is giving Johnnie a run for his money and that’s all she’s expected to do. If she wins the seat, it’s a bonus. The Libs are spending more time and money in Bennelong than ever before and so Maxine is doing her job.
In regards to a general swing being on. If you can’t detect it, maybe that in part explains why you are behind in the polls.
I voted for Howard once or was that twice but also voted for Hawke and Keating. BUT can you imagine the revenge Howard will take on Australia if he wins this election? His bitterness and hatred will know no bounds. It will be pure revenge on any one who didn’t support him.
He will make it his single goal to ensure that it is impossible for there to be a competitive opposition party[aka Singapore], that was their plan anyway but he will be doubly spurred to make sure of it. And then? Australia in the grip of a hard right-wing party.
“WHich Lib pin-head tried to censor Channel 9 ”
Im sure Howard will take full responsibility, as he – apparently – “always does”.
Are we gonna hit 1000 comments? Is this a record?
GP, I have campaigned on the other side of the fence in Bennelong, your assertions are wrong. Many want Howard gone, and are enthusiastic about being given a high quality alternative. Maxine runs a very positive campaign, and is to be commended for staying positive in light of some of the less laudable actions of the Howard government. Honestly, I think the recent Bennelong polls truly reflect the mood in the parts of the electorate where I have travelled.
The Age
http://www.theage.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/bmichelle-grattanb/2007/10/21/1192940905647.html
It actually makes more sense for Newspoll to come out on Tuesday. That would mean they could poll tonight and Monday regarding who people think won the debate.
But maybe they will do another poll about that for later in the week? It would make more sense to do it at the same time as the voting intention poll. It isn’t really worth doing it next week because the debate will be pretty much forgotten by then.
Liberal party hacks Australia wide should be pissed that their party seems to have adopted a new media policy opposing liberty.
847 P Gardiner Says: October 21st, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Oh really? So who was finally to blame for using lies about people throwing their children overboard? Who was finally to blame for invading Iraq without the support of the UN, based upon information that we found was incorrect, and was known as incorrect, before the invasion? Who finally was to blame for our diplomats overseeing the transfer of payments of 300 million dollars to that very same regime?
Blame? You’re right about one thing… compared to Howard, Rudd is a child at that game…
Tof K,
You’re wrong according to the Libs. Apparently the good people of Bennelong are real excited about Costello becoming PM and their having to go to a by-election. They can’t wait.
More details on Liberal Party hacks censoring Channel 9:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/pesky-worm-gets-nine-into-strife/2007/10/21/1192940909198.html
“Mr Westacott said there had been no agreement on whether the worm could run with Channel Nine’s coverage. “I said we were interested in taking the debate and we will do with it what we will,” Mr Westacott said.
“This was somebody bowing to political pressure. I think it was a blatant act of censorship by the ABC and the Press Club.
“It’s not for the Press Club, the Liberal Party or anybody else to decide the editorial policy of the Nine Network.”
WorkChoices 2.0
Just another 52 comments
Lefty E,
Worm overboard………Huge scandal………..What did the PM know?………When did he know?……….Why was he at the Apple Festival?……Was he trying to intimidate worms.?….. And now the key worm for Australia’s future has been kidnapped in to cyberspace……… What would our forefathers think about this huge infringment on Democracy?
LOL. How convenient that people suddenly contrive their campaigning efforts in Bennelong as soon as I say the mood is still remarkably in favour of Howard. What a surprise.
Try a different customer.
Ninemsn is leading with “Worm-Gate”
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/election_article.aspx?id=307689§ionid=6046§ionname=minisiteelection
Interesting to see what traction this gets on morning radio.
OK Mr Speaker.
950: our forefathers were not too flash on democracy either.
Yes ShowsOn, it has merit to release it on tuesday, but such a poll would fail to take into full account the net benefits of the debate. I base my belief on the poll being released tonight on the word of the public broadcaster. My belief is waning by the minute, meh, nothing else to do, sleep just takes me to where I am already, politics. There has to be a cure, methinks a Rudd Labor government would do the trick, administer with pencil and paper, repeat every 3 years.
Howard confirmed that he would stay on as leader of the opposition in the event of an election loss by refering to his ministers as shadow ministers during the election. Mr Costello was later heard to say …common Kevie obvioulsy fearful of the fact of another accusation of being a ‘low altitude flier’ as Turnbull, Abbott, Coonan and Pyne take turns at being leaders of the Opposition.
Hopefully A Current Affair does a story about it.
What was the count on the “senior moment” meter?
Shows On #883
& Fool @ #873
“This has been comprehensively refuted by Peter Costello in the book John Winston Howard:”
Also comprehensively refuted by Fraser.
Here’s the full story on the pulling of Nine’s feed and the worm.
{Channel Nine’s director of news and current Affairs, John Westacott, told The Age last night: “I think the National Press Club … pulled the Channel Nine feed and then pulled our back-up feed. We were forced to take Sky News feed off air, which we did for the last third of the debate.”
The first call came from an ABC technician who said the feed was about to be cut because Channel Nine was running the worm. “Then there were calls from the Press Club. Then they pulled our feed.”
Press Club chief executive Maurice Reilly said Channel Nine was offered the broadcast on certain conditions, which included no live worm.}
http://www.theage.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/pesky-worm-gets-nine-into-strife/2007/10/21/1192940909198.html
looks like the terrograph will have the headline
‘Rudds Rebound’
What better way for The Oz to take the gloss of Rudd’s debate win than by leading with a headline showing Howard clawing back a couple of percent?
Don’t worry about Pyne. With a bit of work my fellow Sturt voters will take care of him.
Oops sorry Kina… I’m a gazillion posts behind. Ditto
GP, I am basing my assertions on the same empirical evidence as you, personal experience. I do not doubt your assertions, but I disagree on the general mood of the electorate based on my own campaign experience. There is no need to contrive anything.
Say, William. Will there be a prize for the 1000nth post?
In the GG the worm story gets one article so far:
“A spokesman from the Liberal Party said that Nine did not adhere to the agreed rules.
“Nine breached the conditions of the broadcast (agreement),†the spokesman said.
“It’s a matter for the National Press Club.†”
Now why wouldn’t the Liberal Party be denying all knowledge of this??
Surely no-one connected with the Lib’s(and by extension part of Rattus’s Team) would have taken a decision to cut the feed to 9. It makes the Libs actions in avoiding scrutiny the story and not the debate. In fact its a lot better story than the debate since that pretty much went as expected with Rudd winning.
Weird??
I just saw the worm on the channel internet video. It went off the graph into space!
Yes, I think there will be a Newspoll tomorrow, probably in the hope it could dampen the expected, and delivered, Rudd victory in the debate.
Onya, Shows On.
I failed to move from Boothby before the Big Day OUT!
Don’t you understand, to use an AUSTRALIAN phrase, the worm was having TWO bob each way. It bobbed UP for Mr Rudd and bobbed DOWN for Mr Howard. There is no other explanation except that Kerry O’Brien was playing the part of the worm. O’Brien works for the ABC, and ergo, he is a biased communist.
I rest my case Mr Speaker.
Absolutely GG, incisive and, dare I say, Bernsteinian questions on Wormgate.
I predict John “The buck stops here etc” Howard produces:
a. A grainy videotape of the worm voluntarily accepting a relocation package for the evening, with no Liberal party inteference, and
b. A sworn statement from the Head of the PMs department saying “We can confirm the PM knew nothing about any worm ejection plan. ” Followed 3 hours later by one stating
c. “In light of recent developments, we can also confirm the PM did not read the documents entitled ‘Worm Ejection Plan: Attention PM “.
“Yes, I think there will be a Newspoll tomorrow, probably in the hope it could dampen the expected, and delivered, Rudd victory in the debate.”
Presuming that it shows a clear shift to the government…
.
.
Yes, a glossy framed and signed photo of the Worm.
@ 939 Kina Says:
I fear you might be correct. There is precious little protection under our much vaunted constitution for democratic freedoms – especially with the current lot of Justices most of whom are Howard appointees.
Scorpio! Just noticed. How goes it?
Cheers!
Beginning to wonder if there’s a Newspoll here – Dennis’ piece on the debate is out on the GG web site- were there any good news in the poll numbers, surely he’d have headlined them in his column?
Yes, it was quite shortsighted of the libs to pull the worm feed. seems to have made a bad situation worse.
No 974
Why are you criticising the High Court? Because they actually interpret the constitution rather than invent non-existent clauses?
“Howard will not lose Bennelong. McKew in Bennelong is a two term strategy.”
Totally disagree.
I think if Howard loses this election, he will lose his seat as well. The winds of change blow hard and unkindly.
If he wins the election however he will definately retain his seat.
Lefty E,
Then the disinformation campaign begins……..Worms aren’t really good for your garden.Followed by a smear about if you cut them in half you end up with two separate worms…..Obviously Union vote rigging?…..
Oh it is a sorry tale from here.
Yes Noocat, that was the GG’s hope. Its a tantalising poll in the event of last weeks govt shift. It either confirms my worst fears, or its the sound of a dead cat hitting the ground again.
I think our political culture and insitutions are strong enough to cope with a potential dictator. But Howard would love to do it if he could. then we would pay.
# 978 Generic Person Says: October 22nd, 2007 at 12:52 am
Ah… to live in the black-and-white world of a liberal party members mind. Where everyone you know is good, and anyone that disagrees with you is evil. Where good christian folk can live in peace, and those nasty gay people (like justice kirby) can be appropriately vilified under parliamentary privilege.
Re: Worm-Gate. How is the ABC implicated in pulling Ch Nines feed? Seems like an ABC technician alerted them. Was channel nine asked to remove the worm before their feed was pulled? Were any Trolls seen in the vicinity? These questions must be answered. I’m calling for a royal commission.
978: I don’t think that’s it – I just think most lawyers (who after all appear before it) think the HC isn’t as good as it was when Mason was CJ. True it is that the Court then took a broader view of its role, but with due respect to those there now, there isn’t perhaps the intellectual rigour there was before, nor is there ther emphasis on human rights like there was with Mason, Deane, Kirby, McHugh, Gaudron, Toohey et al.
This is #*@($ hilarious coming from a Liberal Party hack! Conservative high courts had such a narrow interpretation of the constitution that Australia was for 50 years a British satellite.
It wasn’t until interpretation of the corporations power broadend that we became an indepdent nation, with an independent economic policy.
It is that same interpretation that made WorkChoices possible, because it abolished the constitutional need for an arbitration comission (the IRC).
If you are such a strict constitutionalist, you’d have to oppose WorkChoices.
Crikey Whitey,
Yeah, great, Crikey. Nothing like a robust debate to get the old engine fired up.
Eyes are getting a bit sore though. Have read all posts so far.
No. 983
Being a student of the law, I don’t mind a lot of Kirby’s judgments. My comment was in response to the notion that Howard had stacked the court with conservatives. In the law, it is important to be conservative and cautious, rather than progressive and inventive.
someone’s been busy at the Herald-Sun on-line poll. currently 49-44 Howard’s way.
# 988 Generic Person Says: October 22nd, 2007 at 12:58 am
So where does vilifying justices by liberal party ministers fit in there? Just not ‘conservative and cautious’ enough it would seem.
Yay I did it… stupendous turnout. What a night. Imagine victory on the 24th!
Excellent. Go Kev.
Generic Liberal says:
“I’m a member of the Liberal Party and we have 750 volunteers in Bennelong alone….”
Hmmm. Each and every one a member of the EB, no doubt.
Kevin Andrew’s has secret damning information on ‘the worm’ given to him by the liberal party branch of the DPP and, there are allegations that Ray Martin recently joined the Communist party and, also Heffernan said he had evidence about a railway stations and the worm and Martin. Milne & Ackerman research should confirm these allegations.
I think you just accidently quoted John Howard explaining why we shouldn’t have Native Title. Or possibly Edmund Burke explaining why the French Revolution was bad.
In relation to Bennalong, I think that if the polls continue to stay over 55% for the ALP, then the people of Bennalong are going to move towards Maxine just to save themselves the trouble of having to vote again so soon after the 24th Nov.
I hope that damm News Poll comes out soon.
.
.
A man of many talents and yet he claims to be generic.
Thought I’d have a crack at being the 1000th
Those posters who claim that the swinging voters out there would not watch the debate are undoubtedly correct, but fail to add an important point. All the political insiders were watching, and whether they will publicly admit it or not, they saw a massacre.
Electorate workers toiling in marginal seats will be buoyed (ALP) or dismayed (Coal) and it will feed through into the work they do over the next 5 weeks.
Candidates in those marginal seats will also be affected by the outcome and it will feed into their performances over the next five weeks. The aura of invincibility Howard once had among his supporters is now gone. He is looking increasingly flyblown. Isabella in one of her earlier posts claimed he was “pedestrian” on occasions. She is correct, but unfortunately that was during his better periods. At other times he was comatose.
The result of the debate will have a lasting effect on the campaign. For Rudd to lose now will require a mistake of horrendous proportions. Nothing we have seen from suggests that such an error is likely.
Who’s going to be the lucky 1000th?
1000?
my crack at 1000th post
Damn – missed it
1000?
Mmm…interesting Kina. I suspect that this will be related to Heiner in some way too.
what about me?
I predict that we will not get to 1000
ah miised it, curse this so called broadband
Bugger. Off to bed.
Congrats to James J.
argh so close yet so far. damn you James J
James J, in absence of a prize you get…..
H
Mike Cusack,
You don’t happen to be related to Bill by any chance, do you?
Kina,
The worms are implicated again. Apparently, the report was composted and guess who ate the damning report.
The Worm…… Very convenient. Andrew is right to keep their sort out of Australia. They will never assimilate.
oops, not sure what happened there, no matter, 1am trash.
From the London Daily Telegraph – and remember, these guys love Little Johnny…
Rudd beats Howard in Australia election debate
By Nick Squires in Sydney
Last Updated: 3:11pm BST 21/10/2007
Australia’s political leaders have gone head to head in an election debate, with opposition leader Kevin Rudd getting the better of the embattled prime minister, John Howard.
Former diplomat Mr Rudd was judged to have performed better in the debate, with a live audience of undecided voters on one commercial television network favouring him 65 per cent to 35 per cent.
The Australian has updated. Cant see any newspoll.
Apparently when they are at home the worms wear head scarves and look suspiciously like…..
Poll prediction 56/44
GG’s a load of rubbish. If that was a narrow victory, show me a landslide! Night all, Im off to contrive some more of my existence.
Paul k,
Collingwood supporters………..
Kingston poll in the advertiser
56-44 2PP
45-34 Primary
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22625014-5006301,00.html
Scorpio 995
You are correct. There is growing uncertainty in the electorate as to Howards position. They won’t want to go to the polls twice. Maxine is offering a full three years. Voters dislike uncertainty.
Latest on News Ltd.
{THE audience for the Sky News debate was decorous – on pain of being kicked out. And the person in greatest danger of being kicked out was a frustrated Peter Costello. }
{ In question time, the Treasurer has trouble keeping quiet for 90 seconds.
Sitting in the front row in Parliament House’s Great Hall, hearing economic policy being discussed and his name being tossed about, he was supposed to keep quiet for 90 minutes.
It was all too much.
Asked afterwards if it was the toughest 90 minutes of the campaign, he replied: “The tough part is sitting there and hearing yourself talked about and not being able to say anything”. }
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22626115-29277,00.html
that was freaky
Sure is hard work, Scorp. I was absent, blog wise, since Saturday lunch time, until tonight. There will be another life! I hope.
That was the most comprehensive victory in a political debate I’ve ever seen. It’s hard to imagine a more one-sided debate.
I wasn’t convinced until tonght that Kevin Rudd really had it, but he was sensational. They should’ve stopped the fight in the third round – they wouldn’t let an animial suffer like the PM did – a thrathing of monumental proportions !
The $34 billion allocated to tax cuts by the Liberals (and then the ALP) has miss fired – it hardly got a mention. The ALP’s few billions to be spent on education, in contrast, is great value for money, in terms of votes.
Rudd was dominant on economics – clear, concise, knowlegeable, confident and devastating. Howard’s response to questions on Iraq was pitiful – avoiding the question three times. His questions of Rudd were weak. If debates have any impact, we’ll see a widening of the gap after tonight, with a likely bloodbath election ahead.
This victory was helped along by the eighty clearly biased worm operators – they didn’t even need Rudd to be brilliant for them to love him.
With a huge ALP election win looming, will the Senate be the only brake on ALP/ union dominance throught Australia ? Lyn Allison was also brilliant on ‘Meet the Press’ this morning. It’s vital that the Democrats be re-elected to keep some balance.
The panel of journalists was outstanding tonight, as was the moderator – all a credit to Australia’s political process.
Scorpio
Costello had his chance to be the one standing up there and didn’t take it. He’s lost a lot of kudos.
Peter Costello
Imagine what Mr Haneef felt like.
I don’t know if polls are such a healthy thing.
The little bit I did see of Howard on the Channel 9 web site and heard on the radio did not give a good impression. He seemed very strained.
I have been concerned about his mental health since January. He seems to be having the occassional dark night of the soul. He even lost his temper in parliament for the first time because of Rudd. He seems to have trouble concealing displays of emotion when on tv/public. And the Mr Speaker incident is simply weird – where was his mind then?
Are his party so scared of him that they can’t replace him?
Costello should have been PM for the past 11 years. But he didn’t want to face PJK in the 1996 election. No guts…
Post Debate exits.
Rudd Gets the Cheers – Howard doesn’t
http://www.livenews.com.au/Multimedia.aspx?cid=8&q=&id=11016&cats=&types=&from=01/01/0001&to=01/01/0001&page=1&sc=Published&so=DESC
Scorpio @ 1022. $weetie thinks 90 mins is hard, what about us, we have to sit still for three years before we can say anything!
Yeah, Gecko, that was a dead giveaway on Insiders this morning.
I’m pretty sure that Costello realises that the golden chance he had during APEC that he passed up is surely the end of all his ambitions to be PM. Now eaten up by a worm.
1030 Frank Calabrese Says: October 22nd, 2007 at 1:15 am
Wow… that told a story.
1028 – on this point, did anyone notice the PM’s twitching moment fairly late in the debate last night?
Now, I’m not a fan of his but I don’t raise this to try to lampoon him. I looked at him there, and for a moment I seriously thought he might be having a cerebral event.
There have been a couple of times this year where I’ve wondered whether he might have a problem in this regard.
Again, I want to stress that whilst I’m no fan of his I would take no pleasure were it the case. I just make the observation as comment on the above post.
Damn his yellow streak. Possibly with him as the PM the countries boom times would not have been wasted on pork and special interest groups and, maybe WorkChoices would not have happened. Then again he did establish the HR Nicholls society – a big worry, those guys would cheer if he offered slavery.
Rudd has proposed an independent comission to set up the debates, and there would be three rather than one.
For one of the debates I would have 200 people randomly pulled from the electoral roll, flown in to canberra. Then say 20 of them at random get to ask a question.
The debate could take place in the house of representatives, because it is the people’s house. The PM could sit in his usual position, and likewise for the opposition leader.
They then have to answer whatever question the person asks.
That would be a REAL question time.
Looks like all that coaching by Janette was wasted.
I bet Howard cops it when she gets him home to Kirabilly.
No hot milo and a cuddle tonight.
You know I reckon that since the Liberal leadership ‘challenge’ it has become fairly obvious that the Libs don’t have anybody else other than Howard. I once toyed with the idea that Costello had hidden substance, but that has since proven to be false.
Howard has been such a dominant figure for such a long time that plainly, sycophants are the result. Take him out of the equation and a lot of egos will be let loose. Howard is the glue and the only hope. This really is a watershed election in so many ways.
I fear it will be a long time in isolation for the Libs. And I only say fear because democracy works so much better with an opposition that works.
I liked that moment when the host said, Mr Howard, you are the 2nd longest pm etc…subtext: what are you still doing here? aren;t you happy yet, go away and enjoy what little of you life is left.
It will be all forgotten in a few days. However those industry groups and the like would have watched and seen that they Rudd is a fair dinkum leader. Some the sycophants would have been dissapointed. Bolt should have been impressed, I wondere if he will be honest about it?
Mark @ 1031,
Maybe a long 3 years, but hopefully after the 24th November, we can reclaim back the “real” Australia that we know is still here.
Still no Newspoll.
No news being No News, I think I’ll turn in. Evening all.
Well last night he showed everyone that he is essentially a jerk.
He is also a negative politician, he hasn’t had a single good idea. He is simply in politics to oppose whatever Labor wants to do.
Well that was the most entertaining debate that I ever read on a blog – not having access to the tv.
zai jian
Among all the reasons one would have for posting on the blogoshphere, we know it is read. By they, who would be. My friends are fascinated by my accounts.
ShowsOn @ 1036: What about on line as they do in the US? Also questions from the public can be a bit lame and pollies tend be able to always turn them to there advantage (unless of course they are participants on this site).
Scorpio @ 1041. Were in like Flyn for Nov 24. But $weetie is such a knob-jockey….
Former Liberal state minister Robert Brokenshire is going to run as a Family First candidate for Kingston (S.A.). I always thought there was something screwed up with this bloke.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22624837-910,00.html
Hopefully this doesn’t leak too many votes across to the Liberals…
oooo that scwewy mr Wudd, I’ll get him for making me look so stupid.
(in the voice of Elma Fudd if you didn’t get it.
JWH was so nervous, lol. Though I do give him the debate. Rudd got done on the economic credentials.
Has anybody seen this?
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/opinion/story/0,22049,22623664-5001031,00.html
I’m off to youtube to watch it.
Got to agree with Gecko. Good government needs a strong opposition.
No 1043
Well, suffice to say, Peter Costello would comprehensively demolish Wayne Swan or Kevin Rudd, mainly because he is an animated speaker, especially in parliament.
Howard is confined by his voice which makes him a bore to listen to, though he is quintessentially the better PM than Rudd ever would be in terms of substance.
Gecko @ 1038 Says:
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:23 am
You know I reckon that since the Liberal leadership ‘challenge’ it has become fairly obvious that the Libs don’t have anybody else other than Howard.}
I don’t know if you saw any of the feeds from Howard’s visit to the Granny Smith Festival, where the media made a big issue out of members of the crowd shouting out they wanted another 10 years from Howard?
Imagine if you will, a 78 year old PM Howard and a sulky 61 year old Treasurer Costello still facing away from each other during question time. Makes my head spin!
O the Libs leadership if they lose. My tip is for Julie Bishop. Anyone want venture a guess?
As long as they don’t get to see the questions in advance.
I agree that good politicians can answer whatever they want based on any question. (which reminds me, how the hell did Howard turn a question on reconcilliation into a discussion about how good his front bench team is!?) But at least questions from a live audience of real voters would be more unpredictable.
I think there should be at least ONE debate that doesn’t involve questions from either the media or a moderator who is from the media. ONE debate should just be average people having a go.
John of Melbourne,
You are behind the times. The ear wax thing is old news and while initially amusing no one cares about it. They even discussed it briefly on Insiders this morning. It’s the sort of light fluffy stuff that gets Lib voters excited but no one else.
Careful you’ll give me nightmares. ShowsOn was right, plain a simply a jerk. Not much more to be said.
That after debate footage was awesome.
Here’s a question… should (in light of the debate success) Labor try to release its next major policy (say health or Education) ahead of the opposition to maintain momentum or wait so as not to be gazumped?
my tip, Kevin Andrews. with his winning personality I cant see why he wouldnt resonate with people.
ShowsOn I think he was talking about Mal Brough. They were all in the audience, maybe he was sucking up to them.
HAHAHHAHAH LOL!
His yelling and constant repetition works great in parliament, because nobody watches it.
His yelling and constant repetition would NOT work well as part of a leaders debate on TV, because people don’t associate yelling and repetition with being persuasive. This is obvious, because Howard started with this tactic last night, and lost the debate.
WARNING, DANGER: You just used the word “substance” in a abstract metaphysical sense, a la Andrew Robb. BE CAREFUL, else someone may accuse you of lacking substance.
1047 ShowsOn
‘Former Liberal state minister Robert Brokenshire is going to run as a Family First candidate for Kingston (S.A.)’.
Mmm. That is a bit weird. Cannot imagine it would make any kind of difference to Labor’s chances.
A most enjoyable evening…heaps of trffic on-site too. Judging by the refresh time. Nigthy Nite.
As someone else previously posted, apparently it is currently 56 / 44 to the ALP:
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22625014-5006301,00.html
So with that margin Brokenshire won’t be able to have much of an impact. But if it gets closer then he could.
Apparently his state seat was in the same area, but he lost that at the last state election, so he can’t be THAT popular!
South Australia is ours. Dustan’s legacy lives on.
Scorpio @1011.
Bill?? I don’t think so. Unless you are referring to Bill Heffernan? Family sources inform me that there is some relationship there. How embarrassing is that!
I’ll only believe that if my fellow Sturtians kill of Pyne’s political career.
But if Pyne does lose Sturt, he would probably come back as a Senator if Rudd calls a D.D. election.
As the the Australian prime minister, and more generally Australians say, Pyne is cunning as a $#!% house rat.
Going to have a bit of rest, myself. Thanks all. Great. Thanks even more,
William.
Mike Cusack @ 1064,
The President of my ALP Branch was a Bill Cusack, Solicitor.
I just thought you might be related.
William, thank you for putting this on it was as good as the actual debate a lot of the posts besides being sharp and perceptive were bloody hilarious.
Rudd showed balls of steel tonight and his inner circle of supporters and advisers will be delighted and energised by his performance.
#1065
He is in trouble though, and if a DD does eventuate (which is a long bow right now) his wings will be clipped.
I have some interest in Gray as that’s where I was born… but I don’t think we’ll turn that one around.
Looks like no News Poll today. I’m just about blogged out.
Thanks for an entertaining evening William and fellow posters.
Calling it a night… a great night. Thanks all. William.
For those who didn’t get enough tonight, The Australian has got the full debate on video.
Video: See the entire debate
http://media.theaustralian.com.au/multimedia/mediaplayer/index.html?id=507
Bed for me.
‘Costello can’t keep quiet in debate’
Bring it on…if only…Trillion Tip takes on…Rudd? Joking…Swan? don’t think so…Craig? too much detail there…oh Lindsay?…err…moderator Bishop Cassidy? don’t think so.., poor $weetie, just can’t get a gig anywhere…
Oh I know, Red thang, commie de dah dah dah…go on Tip you can do it; helping to re elect the whatshisname, you brave thing. Do it.
This was the highlight of the debate
“The Federal Government’s education record has triggered one of the most heated exchanges of the leaders’ debate, with the Prime Minister bristling over Kevin Rudd’s use of OECD data.
The stoush began when the Opposition Leader said Australia was ‘the only government in the OECD in the period 1996 to 2004 to have disinvested in universities, to the tune of seven per cent.’
Mr Howard said the report did not consider HECS, the Government’s ‘most recent measures in the last Budget in relation to the Higher Education Fund,’ or ‘investments in technical education.’
‘Mr Rudd knows that, he should not have endeavoured to use that as a rather dishonest debating point,’ said Mr Howard.
Mr Rudd replied: ‘but you’ve been in for 11 years, the changes you’ve just referred are in the last two or three.’
Raising his voice, John Howard said: ‘no, that’s not the point I made Mr Rudd, I corrected your improper use of that OECD report, and talking about 11 years does not alter the fact you were trying to mislead the Australian public.’
The Labor leader persisted, saying: ‘Mr Howard, your officials are represented in the OECD, if there was a grave problem with it, I would have thought they would have put forward additional information to the OECD.’
An angry Mr Howard pointed accusingly at his opponent, saying: ‘no, that’s pathetic. You were wrong. And you knew it, and you shouldn’t have said it.’
Mr Rudd said he stood by everything the OECD had said, before mediator David Speers moved the candidates on.”