A thread for you all to discuss the debate as it happens. If you don’t like the company round here, there’s a live chatroom at Larvatus Prodeo.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
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No 698
Well if impressions were the only thing that mattered in politics, Howard would have been defeated years ago. Clearly that has not been the case.
The debate is a non-event, given its disproven ability to predict election outcomes.
Kina 660
Uhlman is a dead set anti Kev. Falls into line with their ABC. Very like 891, ABC radio, MattnDave.
I watched ABC TV. Didn’t get any wraps. Where can I pick up stuff like the Milne.
‘Labor voters do not buy murdoch papers’.
Certainly not!
No 695. Middleton was right. It was a lecture of sorts rather than any serious debate. I like how Howard qualified his statements as to “economic reform over the last 20 years or so”. He had to acknowledge the real reforms carried out by Hawke and Keating. Costello and Howard have done little to fundamentally change the economy and yet he takes all the credit. People need to be more engaged.
# 586 Tory Crimes Says: October 21st, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Passing out on his porch more like.
Off topic – If Newspoll is out tomorrow, won’t it be up on the GG web site by 11 pm tonight?
Yeah, that was a surprise. Kelly really got up Howard.
Id wager the worm fiasco is quite bad news for Team rodent, and the most significant thing to come out of the night.
Now, many of us know they’re shocking little tyrants and born-to-rule bully boy thugs – but now a whole lot more people will get a whiff of it.
Plus they’ll look ever so …..precious…. to your average punter. Channel 9 has basically told Team Rodent to get stuffed, which is brilliant, and a model to all viewers!
Here stalleth the comeback.
That will happen next it seems.
It is hilarious, he has a go at Rudd for using slogans, then he trotts out the word “substance” as if it automatically explains exactly what the government wants to do if re-elected.
Robb is right about what the worm measures and doesn’t measure – but that misses the point. Floating voters aren’t interested in the “substance” of the debate. That’s why they’re floaters. An “instinctive reaction to focus-driven slogans” is exactly what you expect from floating voters, as the Liberal Party knows full well. What is “70% union bosses” if not a focus-driven slogan? If the worm accurately measured the instinctive reaction to focus-driven slogans, then it did its job.
Just in from Liberal HQ. The worm was controlled by Osama Bin Laden.
If Howard loses the Liberals are going to start a public relations firm dealing with North Korea, and Cuba, and will be giving media reform advice to Russian President Putin.
“The debate is a non-event, given its disproven ability to predict election outcomes.”
Oh, I agree with that. For a start, most of the people who will decide this election were probably watching Idol rather than the debate. And the coverage of it will be long forgotten even by next week.
But I do hope the worm conspiracy gets a running for a while. It it is a classic example of the Libs being mean and tricky. Great stuff for Labor.
No 703
Howard was pedestrian at times but he was good at highlighting his consistent voting record on economic reform, whereas Rudd has changed his mind quite substantially in order to get elected.
But I would have to agree, Middleton’s assessment was accurate. Howard has a better chance when the speeches are short and sharp and when he is ad libbing. Rudd’s responses seemed to reflect a lot of pre-preparedness which indicates weakness when he’s off message.
Debates aren’t about prepared set-pieces. They should be about free-flowing discussion, which was what was promised, but which Speers failed to deliver.
Chris (F)uhlman – was everything I expected him to be… did anyone have a stopwatch on total time spent speaking by both leaders. My subjective impression was Mr. Howard had by far and away the better of it… but that might not have been a bad thing. We don’t get Channel 9 out here… so no worm but it seems the more Howard spoke the worse the worm became…
701 “The debate is a non-event, given its disproven ability to predict election outcomes.”
Well then why on earth do you keep banging on about it, the worm and Ch 9’s feed if it means so little. Seems to mean an awful lot to you.
so now debating the debate about the debate ?
my head hurts
Adam,
There seems to be two external issues surrounding the debate.
1. Costello’s inability to control himself. Next PM on parade disgraces himself.
2. The Great Worm Debate about the cut feed to Channel 9.
How will these factors affect the polls?
Even if the worm moved up and down based on random number generation it still wouldn’t give the Liberals the right to tell channel 9 whether or not they could broadcast it.
Thankfully, we live in a country where TV stations don’t require government permission to put things to air. However it seems the Liberals forget we are a liberal democracy whenever it suits their political interests.
In fact, TV broadcast standards are based on self-regulation, whereas the government (via the OFLC) determines what can be shown at the cinema, or on DVD. Why they still have this power in 2007 I have no idea, but anyway…
Good confirm, Econocrat. Sadly, my recording began after Kev, so cannot replay. He did say that, for sure.
675 (Isabella) And a sure fire way to turn Nines’ editorial line against you.
Generic person
WTF is “pre-preparedness”?
All of the main MSM is giving the debate to Rudd and most are running with the pulling the feed from Ch 9 story – could blow up in Howards face – scared of scrutiny, censorship issues etc. But let’s face it, the worm couldn’t be shown to the public – obviously, the worm is a union thug and had to go…
Besides, who cares if Howard is too old to get his worm up…
I emailed Rudd a few times at the begining of this year to promote the work that Hawke/Keating did to create our current good economy – as probably did many other people. This and the union thing is something they should have promoted as a strength for some time. Howard has been fasley surfing on Labor’s economic credentials for 11 years.
“But Mr Howard remains the bookies’ favourite to win his Sydney seat of Bennelong, with his odds at $1.28 compared with $3.25 for Labor challenger Maxine McKew.”
You can bet that Mr Howard is being backed heavily by the party to make sure it looks like he is in front. Not a good look for the LNP Leader to seem done for.
Generic Person. Diagnostics. I am glad you are not my GP.
605 Just Me, ta for the LOL, but talk about a fish in a barrell, Glug Glug is a free kick that I just can’t resist taking, and 633 DGW, nice one! Any more supercillious ministries for us?
Firstly, can I say I’ve just waded through 688 posts on the debate, and it’s been marvellously entertaining. Thank you everyone.
I watched the debate on ABC-TV, and was disappointed not to find out that 9 had run the worm until the end of the debate. Then I switched over, and had a look at Ray, who seem mightily amused by the escapades of the worm.
I thought Rudd easily won the debate. In fact, I think it was the best performance I’ve ever seen from an Opposition Leader, state or federal, in this sort of situation. He knew his themes and he knew his facts and figures. Apart from one stumble on climate change, he handled the questions very well.
Rudd managed to say “working families” even more times than Howard bagged the unions (quite a feat!). And in a remarkable “on-message” achievement, Rudd even managed to get Howard to say “education revolution” several times!
I thought Speers handled the debate calmly and well, and didn’t fluff a single line. For all the people who bag him on this blog, you need to remember that he would do more genuine live TV than any of the other journos, and frequently moderates/hosts live debates. Experience counts in this sort of thing – it’s not easy to do.
I thought virtually all the journos questions were relevant, and both leaders got a reasonable doing over. I was disappointed though that health got very little mention (except when Rudd threw it irrelevantly into answers on other topics). Health is a huge issue in this election, if you check the polls. Education got debated a fair bit by default, and what was Howard on about at the end??
The other area that was ignored was water and drought. In fact, no-one gave a shit about big issues in regional Australia, and I think many people outside the big cities will be disillusioned by the debate. Apart from a bit of repartee about high petrol prices, country Australia got little recognition here. Obviously the parties believe the election will be won and lost in the suburbs, despite all the talk about important regional seats.
Rudd was pretty good on reconciliation. His best moments in my opinion.
Howard will announce a new policy tommorrow : “Worm-Choices”
Generic Person 712# There were are number of instances were they did slip off message and really weren’t sure. Spontanous, off the cuff retorts are part of a debate. This was more a platform.
Our media today is too manufactured, for the sound bite, when it gets messy people don’t like it. The Latham handshake taught Labour a big lesson. Take Hewson on the backs of trucks having rallies for his GST.
He lost the unlosable unelection, supposedly.
Labour has only won office a couple of times since WWII. I would rather be over prepared and a little nervous.
What do you mean Rudd has changed his mind in order to get elected?
I wouldn’t have voted for Howards reforms either.
I can’t believe it, is there a God in Heaven ( sorry to staunch believers), but has Isabella criticised the PM? ( see her post 499).
It’d be like me saying Gough Whitlam was the worst PM in Australia’s history? Sacrilege! But to her everlasting credit, she actually connected with reality for once.
I’d say he figured the ‘union bash’ wasn’t going to work and by that stage he was just running out of steam, as a man of 68 might be expected to do under pressure after an hour and a half in the national spotlight – and of course Kevvie quoting Bernie Banton lauding Combet and others. So much for ‘evil’ union leaders.
Even took the risk Hawke and Keating legacy would be strong on ‘economic reform’ – just took the game right to the Rodent!!
Somehow even made some of the stats sound a bit sexy, though I think he should try not to talk about ‘parts per million’ – no one would have accepted Howard’s attack on Rudd’s OECD report comments – Howard just looked churlish. Any mug knows the Govt has ‘first refusal’ on OECD reports, as Kevvie knows full well. Was almost an ‘in joke’on the Rodent.
Great if Mr Speaker is there to help, or Costello, who is a good debater, had been there to help – but bad luck, only the Lame Duck talking tonight.
And WormGate, the attempted censorship scandal of the campaign – could it possibly be sheeted straight to the Libs Campaign Team? How sweet it is – and a master stroke from Labor to release the child care policy today – I think it must have exhausted the Libs team trying to find a response, or they are saving it up so it doesn’t get lost in the Debate chatter. –
And what about those schoolboys Costello and Downer? Caught red-handed heckling like some loons on a street corner!!
Saint Kevvie just returned – and showed he could fight with the best of them. A couple of stumbles, but just as the populace seem to be forgiving him other gaffes, so did the Worm audience.
A much needed morale boost for some of us ALP supporters who might have been inclined to believe it really is Another Liberal Party after first week of campaign.
Rope-a-dope, what excellent work from Rudd’s Team. The Rodent looking every bit his 68 years. Just showed it to the whole country. Can’t wait to see the Labor campaign ads. Maxine must be smiling. KR nearly broke into Mandarin, he was so far in front! Bet Maxine wished he’d done so!
see Mr. Howard began with this american model, attack the man, attack his voting record (what a joke in this system!!) – attack his trustworthiness… and he ended with in a 1970s era diatribe…
Mr. Rudd coulda belted him on a number of issues – it annoys me he didn’t smack Howard with the $600 worse off claim ‘no that’s a lie Mr. Howard’ – it annoys that the 70% union officials wasn’t smacked ‘no, that’s a lie Mr. Howard…’ Rudd didn’t have to argue about percentages – it’s enough to say – ‘it’s a lie – your own treasurer says it isn’t true’.
Anyway, it was interesting to see… I wouldn’t have agreed to that format if I’d have been Rudd though…
No 728
Rudd voted against all the tax reforms, surplus budgets and so forth, but now agrees with them as leader.
Regardless of the polls which will no doubt go up and down and all over the place it is going to be a hard fight all the way to the day.
706
Lefty E Says:
Channel 9 has basically told Team Rodent to get stuffed, which is brilliant, and a model to all viewers!
And which also may be the single most important act from the MSM so far this year. If they are prepared to do that, then they might be thinking Howard will lose, and are currying favour with the likely new regime.
Of course Rudd could’ve said Howard voted against Medicare, Superannuation, the 1975 anti-Discrimination Act, Native Title, and a motion condemning Howard’s own comments against Asian immigration.
Apparently, most of the Federal Cabinet were there to support Howard. The local Libs could not get an audience.
The moderator had to ask them to take off their buffalo horns. Afterall. this was not the annual meeting of the loyal officers of the water buffalos.
But, that Costello can’t help himself.
All that bitterness and vindictiveness came out with his “Go Kevie” exclamation!
I said it before and I’ll say it again. and this will go for the whole campaign as it has gone for the whole year:
“Comprehensive win to Rudd: Substance, Clarity, Passion, Ideas.
And, guess what…he’ll be around for the next 10 years”
Howard can’t match this in his wildest dreams, and Costello don’t get the chance to put his case
No wonder the Cabinet were sitting like a bunch of private school bullies trying to intimidate Rudd, sitting in the front row barracking for their “team” captain…
Australians get a chance on 24 November to go for substance or “growth”, ie, that of the malignant kind as the likes of downer and costello and turnbull and nelson try to write their place in history….
And as for Glen Milne…his wife may work for the agency that runs Howard’s campaign, but do you think he gives or gets the proverbial…he’s not led by anything other then his commitment to quality journalism, just like the rest of the press gallery
They have exhibited the higest standards of fearless journalism and independent commentary over the last decade, not beholden to either thier employer or the media office who gives them the various scoops and drops, and they haven’t been subject to flooding or the other game plays of an incumbent administration
And nor did any senior journalists “sit” on their exclusive of Costello declaiming he was going to finally, ultimately, eventually take on Howard over the leadership
And nor was any journalist prepared to identify the Ministerial office to which he was taken to be exposed to the dirt file on Julia Gillard – write the story, yes. Tell the truth, gosh, i might burn my contact…Peter, surely you don’t want me to expose Julia as a communist… and after Shaun Carney’s biography showed how critical you were to the end of the cold war…
Win. Lose. Draw. our so called independent press gallery had better start to look a little bit more closely at their professsion…
If Labor wins against all odds (16 seats!) then the gallery and some of its members might have to start being honest with the public about their own behaviour, and not play the easy game of “gee, whiz, government is in control and I have this exclusive..”
thought game
imagine a labor opposition announced the tax cuts policy of Howards on day 1
and howard and costello announced rudds response?
the MSM would be creaming themselves to declare how masterul and inventive the Howard government was
And they can’t even call the fact that by putting out the tax issue straigt up, Howard and Costello BLINKED
We should get to vote on the political “aristocracy”, milne et al, let alone the parties
And since when was our press gallery so beholden to the PM of the day that they would, could accept a leader’s debate dictated by one “leader”
they really are neutered
I guess this is a problem for democracy on another day
just not sure if our democracy has the time?
comments?
GG, I think the whole thing was a debacle for the Libs. Howard’s performance, Costello’s adolescent behaviour, the tantrum about the worm. They will get a week of curry about all of it – which of course was why they wanted it over and done with ASAP. They will take a hit in next week’s polls, but they will still have four weeks to recover. The problem is, recover with what? They have fired their one big gun, tax cuts. Now all they have is more pork, which no-one believes. I stand by my predictions: Labor to win 20 seats. Maybe they won’t do as well as I suggested in WA, but I was being very conservative about NSW and Vic, so overall I’m a happy Labor hack tonight.
Remember to watch the Chaser guys next Wednesday: Howard is ambushed by a gigantic worm LOL
um…Janette?
and that’s just burnt an image into my brain that I could have done without!
John Howard caught “me-too-itis” during that debate.
Action on climate change? Me too.
Reconciliation? Me too.
Education revolution? Me too.
Reduction of combat troops in Iraq? Me too (we’ll put them in a training role instead).
I agree that many of the people who decide the election will have been watching Australian Idol (or Kath and Kim) tonight. But they may well also watch the Chaser and Rove in the next week. And you can bet your life that, while the debate substance will be forgotten, they’ll be talking about the worm, and pulling more stunts. And Rudd, the self-declared “friend of the worm” (and a very smart quip that was), will get some collateral benefit from this.
Howard really failed to give any clearer picture of what his government would do in the next three years. That is always a challenge for any government that’s been in power a long time, but it’s a challenge they must meet if they’re to get re-elected.
And Howard’s admission (by default) that you can be made redundant with no redunancy pay under WorkChoicds will not be forgotten by a lot of voters. I suspect Labor will keep reminding them. It was a good question from Rudd. Much better than that stupid George Bush question from Howard.
Notice Howard said Rudd had a Donald Horne, “lucky country” view of Australia? Either JWH has not read the book, or totally lacks a sense of irony.
Something about hospitals. Howard said a few months ago that the government intends to outspend Labor on health. So I guess that means a 2 or 3 billion announcement about something.
Shanahan also leaked something in his recent article. The fact he never misses a Liberal party branch meeting means he is usually right about their policies.
Kina: I agree! A win in the debate doesn’t guarantee election victory for Rudd, as we know from past elections. The Rodent will bribe and pork barrel like crazy for the next 5 weeks, Labor can’t be complacent!
No 741
The worm story is overblown. The Government and the ALP will surely release some big policy initiatives over the next week and it won’t take long for the media focus to shift away from the debate.
It’s a good start of the week for the ALP. I think Adam pointed out, that the ALP had a plan for a 5 week campaign. They now have the momentum and they will launch tomorrow with a big ticket item, probably education.
731
Generic Person Says:
Rudd voted against all the tax reforms, surplus budgets and so forth, but now agrees with them as leader.
You do understand the nature of compromise party politics, don’t you? You don’t have a lot of say until you are leader. You toe the party line. I think you will find it is the same in the Liberal party.
Rudd should’ve said “so are you proposing that Australia is an unlucky country?”
Where are the Libs?
They go poof!
re donald horne. actually I dont think he meant that. he was talking about resources and luck. there was a distinction there.
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