A thread for you all to discuss the debate as it happens. If you don’t like the company round here, there’s a live chatroom at Larvatus Prodeo.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Open debate thread
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1,076 Comments
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Costello has been unfairly maligned. He just yelled “Go Kevie” because he wasnts to get of Howard too.
How many swiniing votes would have watched the debate?
No 747
It takes courage and conviction to stand up for what you believe Just Me.
If Rudd truly agreed with the GST, then he wouldn’t have parroted it as a fundamental injustice in one of his initial speeches to the parliament.
No-one has actually read The Lucky Country, which is a pity because it’s a very perceptive book. What Horne actually said was: “Australia is a lucky country, run by second-rate people who share its luck.” Very true then and very true now. Except their luck seems to be running out.
Great debate, agree with all the sane people that Rudd won comfortably. The 9 feed will be a major backfire for whoever pulled it, and fit nicely into the ‘tricky and sneaky’ narrative that labor has built up on Howard. However, the Newspoll, which 7:30 rep on thursday said was out on monday (assuming day) will either reinforce, or undermine, the obvious momentum and forward looking narrative established by the debate. Alot of the campaign will be based on perception, and it is better for the PM to look firmly (but not overwhelmingly) on the out, so many swingers choose to back the ‘winner’.
Kina,
The only pigs I am aware of were the Liberal Cabinet in the front row.
So, what was that Howard was on about? An announcement, in two days, about Iraq.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22624030-601,00.html
“Treasurer Peter Costello was the loudest of a group reacting to one comment from Mr Rudd on economics, prompting the host, Sky News political editor David Speers, to remind the audience to be quiet. Mr Rudd said the Treasurer should take note.”
generic person, if i remeber correctly Rudd was talking about the compensation being an injustice, not the actual GST.
Generic and Isabella…
I have sat here for an hour now reading your sour grapes mixed with vinegar comments about everything from how Nine have somehow subverted democracy by running a computer graphic on their screen, how Rudd is allegedly a hypocrite, how the debate was rigged, how the whole thing was a fix…
… and I have to say that youse two are the biggest pair of whingeing, bad losers ever to have emerged from a drainpipe running underneath Liberal Party HQ.
In case you hadn’t noticed… the worm did not affect any of the two debaters’ utterances. They did not have earplugs telling them point-by-point how the naughty nematode was squirming, thus giving them an opportunity to adjust their answers to appeal to the viewers in faraway Sydney at the 9 studios.
Howard won the toss and used the opportunity to talk about how Don Bradman was going to rule in Aussie history classes from now on. Whose fault was bloody that?
He went into Iraq and still cannot admit he made any kind of a mistake in doing so? Is that Rudd’s problem, or Howard’s?
Despite the presence of as big a bunch of urgers in one place since Bugsy Siegel got the mob finance for building Las Vegas, in the forms of Hartcher, Uhlmann, Kelly and Oakes, Howard ducked, weaved, obfuscated and generally declined to answer any of their softball questions. Who is to blame for that? Osama bin Laden?
He brought up George Bush. Even George Bush doesn’t bring up George Bush nowadays. Yet somehow you thin the whole thing was a fiddle to favour Rudd?
You guys are off your rockers if you can’t accept that by any measure Rudd won this debate and won it handsomely. And you know what? Your bleating and bloviating here on these pages won’t make one whit of difference to the opinion of the general public, or to the result at large.
You lost. We won.
And for that I am truly grateful.
724
The Keegan Says:
633 DGW, nice one! Any more supercillious ministries for us?
From the wires…
In post-election jockeying for positions in the miraculously re-elected new Howard Ministry, Senator Bill Heffernan has announced he will not accept the position of Special Minister of State responsible for explaining to people the difference between an apology and saying sorry. Senator Heffernan claims he was too confused by what this position might actually entail and those nasty boys from the chaser would always be making fun of him. “I am instead going to take the Prime Minister’s generous offer as Minister from Practical Symbolism. As Minister for Practical Symbolism I will take full responsibility for ensuring that this government never does anything practicallly symbolic or symbolically practical in support of Indigenous People or even those people who come from overseas… I’m not sure what practical symbolism or symbolic practicality is, but I know I’m going to be having a lot of fun never saying sorry, never going for silly walks to promote reconcilliation and I am happy to announce any planned changes to the constitution have been cancelled due to their lack of practical effect”
In related developments, new political maestro Christopher Pyne is rumoured to be considering accepting the PM’s generous offer as the new Minister Assisting the Minister for the Promotion of the Great and Skilfull Game of Gentleman (formerly known more simply as Cricket). Mr Pyne is a little unfamiliar with the game, having not been allowed on the team at his exclusing boys school, but the PM has appointed Steve Waugh to tutor Pyne in the intricacies of the game for the next 4 weeks.
Politicians often only read the cover of a book. Maybe they think the same about the public, hence the name ‘WorkChoices’
It seems that Dollar Sweetie has forgotten that he had chances to be on that state tonight, but in 1994, 1995, 2006 and 2007, he gave up the opportunities.
Being reportedly everywhere as a win for Rudd.
Eg.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22625219-29277,00.html
Actually it is not the PM in this election, Howard should be referred to as the Leader of the Liberal party.
Bushfire Bill! Love your work.
I’ve read The Lucky Country…and the sequel.
I am old enough to have read The Lucky Country. And yes, the title is ironic.
However, most people haven’t read the book, and it was published a long long time ago. So many viewers would not have understood what Howard meant.
Oh Chris I didn’t realise you were here. “No-one except Chris Curtis.”
Why is the government making decisions about redeployment, or changing military roles while in caretaker mode?
More Howard dickheadery.
No 760
I did not accuse the debate of being rigged at all. Indeed that is a misrepresentation of what was said.
I merely lamented the fact that the leaders engaged in longwinded lectures rather than in free-flowing discussion.
Further, Rudd obfuscated on the issue of climate change. He failed to outline on a coherent plan. All he mentioned was Kyoto and some illusive target to come into place in 50 years.
Overall, I thought the debate was boring and quite underwhelming. I expected more journalist involvment rather than a replication of campaign-launch speeches.
If Howard goes down does anybody seriously think he will hang on from the backbench to avoid a by election?
Quick: those who think Rudd won the debate: Vote on http://www.news.com.au/poll/1,,5012572-5031348,00.html
The Young Liberals have already started stacking the poll. Rudd was miles in front, but over the last 20 mins, the vote for Howard has jumped. Get on there quick to put these poll-riggers in their place.
does anyone know if we’ll see a newspoll tonight?
#771 no
I read it too!
The Prime Minister has a great yearning
To improve our historical learning
He says “please give me your vote,
And I’ll teach history by rote,
If only you stop the worm’s turning!”
Howard chose the format, the moderator, the audience and he still lost.
I only just turned up, Adam…adn it took a while to read – okay, scan – all the comments. Which thread will reach the 1,000-mark?
No. He has repeatedly implied that if Rudd forms government, but he wins Bennelong, then he will be gone immediately.
He has only said that he will stay in parliament for all of the next term if he retains government, and even that is doubtful in my opinion.
I mean, he would be leaving politics, so the worst that could happen is for a Labor candidate be elected to Bennelong, but I doubt that would bother him much when he is gone.
.
.
Please. A lecture on conviction from the people who condemn any of their own who don’t fall in line with everything Howard says. Any member of the Liberal Party who stands for his convictions is destroyed Howard’s henchmen.
A couple of people have said that the people who will decide the election were all watching Idol tonight.
Luckily the core demographic of that show skews 70:30 to the ALP … if they are old enough to vote
753
Generic Person Says:
It takes courage and conviction to stand up for what you believe Just Me.
Yes it does. You mean just like Howard had the courage of his convictions to put the radical and regressive IR changes to the voters before the last elections, when he was already leader? No he didn’t. What he actually said before the last election was that the then 20 basic employment conditions would not be removed or altered. When Rudd confronted him with that bald faced lie Howard was completely exposed and simply had no answer for it. That was one of the biggest hits he took in the debate.
And thanks, nath (759), for that contextual detail.
Dear Poss @ 309
The Cttee @ codger Inc have long adhered to the time honoured principle of never pissing on a possum; and as my 10yo observed of the rodent wind worming & rudster refresh: He’s f***ed; if you could kindly lift your game on the ‘codger’ front it would be kindly appreciated.
PS Mr Kelly former apologist-at-Loose is just one thong short of jumping ship; not by choice I would think but his demeanour throughout the dissection was well…this is what happens to ‘my’ genius…sad really…
Rudster’s six off the ‘toolman’ was superb btw…
Howard wasn’t using the popular ‘lucky country’ terminology. He was saying that Rudd was using Horne’s analysis when talking about the CHina boom. its obvious.
Earlier post should have read: “Costello has been unfairly maligned. He just yelled “Go Kevie†because he wants to get rid of Howard too”.
Even so, some people seem to have understood my mangled typos.
Good to see Costello is being ridiculed for his childish behaviour, he’s had a very bad day has poor old Pete.
On another note, is Paul Kelly actually starting to warm to Rudd. His article in the Oz yesterday and his pulling Howard into line about not answering a question is starting to make me wonder.
#772
The validation for that poll is all done client-side using Javascript. It would be easy to whip up a script that votes repeatedly for one option.
But I think I’ll go to bed instead.
On topic: I think Kevin Rudd won the debate, but he’s not going to win the election by a wormslide. I’m still sticking with my May prediction of 82 seats to Labor. Most assessments of the debate that I have read tend to have partisans giving victory to their own side. It’s lucky that I am objective.
Yep. One of those great Aussie mass debates. It’s part of our great heritage our beloved PM was referring to at the end of his smashing victory over the representative of the evil one. You know the sort of thing they got up to around the drover’s camp fires and what they had to put bromide in the diggers’ tea for during times of military conflict.
Oops,
forgot to add
and talk about me-toism
Howard was obviously coahced that the education revolution was biting …so what doe he say?
‘My education revolution, if I can borrow a phrase….”
Gee, maybe our MSM can get on to that reference?
Rudd has set the policy agenda for the last year and the next decade:
economy, ie, infrastructure; economy, ie, education; economy, ie, climate change; economy, ie, broadband; economy, ie, child care; economy, ie, health; economy, ie, efficient fed-state relations; economy: our future
he’s kept it simple, and the economy is more than just buying votes (and so why won’t Peter reveal the bracket creep trick he plays and tries to hid via FOI conculsive certificates – just ask the SMH?)
the economy is about investing in capacity build: infrastructure, education, time between mum, dad and the kids……
and then superannuation in substance, not tax breaks
its not merely minding the shop….its about reform
Peter, you and your boss are good shopkeepers, and Napoleon would say you are true Englanders
But heaven forbid you ever have real crises to deal with
Rudd showed his complete ability to see and manage the real challenges we face
And they don’t revolve simplyaround the question: How do I buy enough votes to be PM…..
If costello had a real vision for the future, why haven’t we heard it?
Because its been stolen by JWH because
But he can’t steal Rudd’s vision
Sure, but Howard’s probably is that most people watching probalby have no idea who Donald Horne is.
The funnier answer Howard gave was when he said “to use that well known Australian expression, Mr Rudd is trying to have two bob each way.”
What a moron, why doesn’t he just use the statement, rather than telling us how Australian he is being? He does this rubbish all the time, I guess Crosby-Textor says it appeals to the ocker vote.
761 DGW, gems, all gems, keep em coming! (Particularly if you can have a quick change of heart and find a ministry whereby Pyne get his head shoved up a ruminant’s you know what).
I didn’t think I would be quoting REM on the forum, but
“Hey, Kev, shake a leg… may be you are crazy in the head…”
By contrast Howard was steady and solid and on message and not afraid to venture into Labor’s territory in the end.
(I’ll concede one thing, Howard was boring to tears, but rock solid).
Rudd was treasonous on security and terrorism.
Rudd’s idea of education solutions is to peddle old laptops.
Rudd’s claim to understanding technology fell in a total heap when he used the term “information highway”, a term not heard since the days of the “Multi-Function Polis”; and about as redundant.
On the worm, I hope the Coalition punishes Nine for not playing by the rules when it is returned. (Even journalists should pay heed to rules.)
Slam-dunk to Howard.
Election result: at least status quo at HoR; Coalition majority in the senate of 2.
I might have give thought to retiring the comments name. The job of explaining that has been done by Mr Rudd himself better than I ever could.
Not a good image….
“two bob each way”
He should have said. When Iw as growing up that was the expression that people used. But Im not too sure because I was at home baking scones with mother.
“You are old, father William,” the young man said,
“And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head–
Do you think, at your age, it is right?”
“In my youth,” father William replied to his son,
“I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I’m perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again.”
No 794: thanks Piers, off to bed now. Your “line” of thought is a little out of whack tonight.
Generic Person
No 728
This is compromise politics. When it doesn’t cost you the possibility of being PM you would vote on principle. Vote against it. He has to play a dead bat to the Libs economic strong suit. He did this very well.
It is the same for Peter Garret. He looks bad for not standing up for the pulp mill, but he can’t do anything at all from opposition. Lose the battle and win the war.
Kina. 732. I was also disappointed that Rudd does not hold Keating up as a great eonomic manager. A few months ago Keating came out and showed what a great sham the Howard and Costello Economic Miracle really is. Rudd wont touch him because when every voter thinks of him all they think of his recession and 17%.
Howard was trying to suggest Rudd is in league with terrorists: if he continues to pursue this line of attack, it’ll backfire on him badly.
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