A thread for you all to discuss the debate as it happens. If you don’t like the company round here, there’s a live chatroom at Larvatus Prodeo.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Open debate thread
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Of somewhat more importance, where is the bloody Newspoll?
832, 833, 835 - thanks guys - more dog whistling eh?
Shows on #770 (having trouble keeping up)
‘Dickheadery’ is very like ‘f*cktardery’… Clearly you and Possum attended the same school!
OMG, all three on the GG clip have lost their marbles - even Sid Marris claimed that “Howard was stronger”. Kelly thought Howard started very strong and only lost it later. Absolute nutbags.
The Granny Smith apple is an excellent example of the Lucky Country at work. Granny Smith found the wild apple tree growing in a creek bed. No need for years of cross-breeding apples, or genetic modification - it was just there. A bit like uranium, or iron ore in the Pilbara.
No wonder John Howard attended the Granny Smith Festival today.
Dear me. Looks like the Libs are back from the post mortem.
He probably does. And not just about Rudd. He’s probably thinking of Howard and ‘told you so’.
Jen mentioned Costello and Downer behaving like recalcitrant schoolboys … I’ve often had that feeling about Downer: that he’d love to set up the old bag of flour over Rudd’s door. Always worked a treat at boarding school.
Didn’t see the early parts - wife cannot stand Howard saying anything (say, maybe she’s in the demograph Nine use for their Worm). Caught the last 20 minutes or so. Rudd creamed Howard big-time for that period.
I can understand why further debates are off the table.
how did the union stall go at the granny smith day
At the start Howard was trying to be agressive, he wasn’t composed and measured, he was kind of trying to channel Costello in question time.
I wish! He can do math, I can’t
Nice forum, wish I’d found it earlier.
I started out watching the debate on Sky but switched to 9 because they had mentioned the worm earlier in the week and i wondered if it would be there, luckily it was - makes things much more interesting.
Anyone questioning the effectiveness of the worm should note that when Howard talked about not saying “Sorry” it went pretty positive for him. Sadly that is the way plenty of Australians feel. The worm captured it quite well.
Interesting that when Howard got the question re being the second longest serving PM and people being ready for a change he didn’t say, well we have that planned - vote for me and you’ll get Costello - obviously still hasn’t got used to the idea himself or knows the public isn’t so keen on it either (out of interest, why aren’t preferred PM polls done Rudd vs Howard/Costello???)
Like others have said, good on Rudd for sticking up for Hawke and Keating and the fact they set in place the changes to the economy that largely have us where we are now. Could have done more of it when Howard said he voted for those changes when they where made by saying something like “is the real reason you voted for them that you were too scared to make them yourself when you were treasurer?”.
The wall to wall Labor government argument needs a better response - stopping the buck passing is good but i think they should add “how can we be blamed for Liberal oppositions being so piss poor right across the country”
15% union officials, oops membership, in the private sector - easy to combat by getting figures on how many people are covered by union negotiated agreements/awards - would still be more than 50% of the population at a guess.
Overall, easy win for Rudd but Howard has never won one of these debates and with $20 billion surplus still to spend isn’t worm food yet - unfortunately!!!!
p.s. why would Howard talk about history in the close - has me totally confused.
There once was a man from Bennelong;
Who stayed in the job for too long.
Then along came a Rudd;
Who with a whack and a thud.
Sent him off with his future fund.
No 836
Yes I did go to the Granny Smith Festival and the PM was overwhelmingly the more popular candidate. Maxine was literally nowhere to be seen.
We do have two offices but one is for the general public, the other is the base from which general campaigning is conducted.
Rudd should be straight out the gates tomorrow, saying “That was a great start but there are many more issues to discuss, and more policies to be announced in the coming weeks that we should debate. I look forward to two more debates - let’s have one at the end of Week 3 and one at the end of Week 5″. Make Howard articulate his reasons for not having any more debates.
Those who have only joined us in the hope of influencing individual opinions need not waste their time. Almost all bloggers are evidently rusted on to a particular ideology and party. But hey, if your getting paid to write tripe like that, you should ask for a raise. Oh thats right, your all on AWA’s!
I dont think Rattus did badly tonight (though he was let down by the Crew Members in the audience), its just that Rudd did very well.
He was positive for the most part, spoke clearly and was obviously well prepared. Still, he went on the attack from time to time and showed that he can do that when it suits.
The worm i think is a bit if a joke. I was thinking that they must have gotten an audience that was a bit biased. But then again, Rudd has been ahead in the polls al year and its people voting in opinion polls (like the worm) that have put him there.
All in all, entertaining, a good showing by Rudd, a lackluster but workman-like one by Rattus, and a very poor one by his Crew.
‘Union biased morons would have dyer affects to this strong economy’ The effects on the economy would be red dye, I assume.
I actually thought Shanahan’s comments were fairly reasonable. He conceded that Rudd won. Kelly’s become a pompous old blowhard, which is sad because he used to be very good - like 30 years ago. But neither of them are in the same class of evil as Milne, who is no more than a Liberal Party whore and hardly even bothers pretending otherwise.
839
Antonio Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Strike a light, Johnny! Life was better under the old money. We made do without fibres to our nodes, and we dealt with those bloody Kyoto protocols in their midget submarines.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
But we still had our occasional laptop. (Nudge nudge, wink wink.)
No 867
Maybe you are miffed because they’re telling it how it really was, not how you would rather it be.
Generic Person,
You can belittle Maxine all you like and she may not win but the fact is she is giving Howard a run for his money. If the Libs aren’t worried then why is Howard spending so much time in Bennelong compared to past elections. Even if she loses she has done her job and kept your boy on his toes.
Thank you for your indulgence Mr Speaker…
Hopefully In some marginals - Bennelong perhaps.
Generic Person
There were photos of Maxine dancing and having a great old time. In actual fact it was reported to have been marred by mob violence of angry political supporters wearing purple and black shirts. Throwing apples. I heard Iemma had to send in the water cannon to crack down.
Would your vote count in the Bennelong electorate?
*860
The reason howard didnt make the economic changes if you know your political history from that time is that the Prime Minister Mr malcom Fraser would not allow him to and being the treasure to the government led by Malcom Fraser he did as he was told, many moons have pasted since then and unlike Labour Party members, Liberals are allowed to cross the floor so to speak without fear of any repercussions from there own party, that is why Howard made it clear that he supported any economic changes that were to the betterment of our economy Howard “a True Economic Conservative”
Sheesh, I say something nice about Shanahan and I still get slagged!
Yes, see the government was actually only allowed to invite 199 supporters, because Milne had already been invited by the national press club.
That is why a reckon any Labor supporter that spends a cent on a murdoch paper now or ever in the future is just giving them reward for dishonestly and corrupting the media role in trying to elect Howard.
Don’t do it - if murdoch’s annual cirulation drops 30% because it loses the readers it is pooping all over then so it should.
well technically they had 203 in the crowd if you count speers, uhlmann and kelly
That will teach you.
“Yes I did go to the Granny Smith Festival and the PM was overwhelmingly the more popular candidate. Maxine was literally nowhere to be seen.”
Probably because she was surrounded by hordes of ordinary punters when she started her dancing routine. You know, the ordinary punters. Those people who were getting in your way all day, who wanted to enjoy the festival before shafting your beloved leader.
(By the way, can I have the number of Isabella’s dealer? Or is she freaked out by the Drug Squad surveillance?)
Why do people think Uhlmann is bias? Doesn’t he work for the ABC, isn’t he a left wing communist trade unionist ready for a seat on Rudd’s front bench?
P Gardiner, they obviously aren`t paying you per sentence.
No 870
I did not belittle Maxine at all. I just said that she was conspicuously absent for most of the event’s duration. It is a factual observation.
The nightly news snippets do not actually capture the reality. Her dancing escapade was mainly during the your rights at work parade segment after which she left because the PM became the main focus as he made the journey to his vehicle. Bennelong supporters swamped him from all sides, wishing him good luck and commending his performance. It took about an hour for him to get to his car, just a few hundred metres from the stage upon which he delivered his speech.
The ALP did not even have a stall on Rowe street, the main drag of the event. The Greens and Democrats had a bigger presence.
Indeed, the most belittling members of the whole event were the Howard hating protesters that kept heckling abuse at the PM.
This has been comprehensively refuted by Peter Costello in the book John Winston Howard:
http://www.dymocks.com.au/ProductDetails/ProductDetail.aspx?R=9780522853346&Producode=9780522853346
You should read it to find out what everyone else already knows - Howard was a failure as treasurer, who didn’t have the guts to reform anything. He only put an end to the bottom of the harbour tax evasion scheme because the opposition called him out over it. If it was Howard’s choice it would still be in operation.
My favourite moment of the debate: Rudd on reconcilation, with good humanising hand gestures (for a change!) saying its just about respect, and building a bridge.
It was like a school counsellor explaining social skills 101 to a yr 9 social retard.
“if you’re nice to other people, Johnny, they might like you back..”
Which was especially effective after Howard’s bizarre distinction between sorry and apologising, or whatever it was. You could almost hear the national headscratch. Huh?
Sid Marris - Howard was stronger. HAHAH.
#843 Wysiwyg
Yeah, maybe shanahan’s headline will be “RUDD comes in SECOND LAST”
Soviet propaganda 101
Just checked the newspoll site - most recent poll is Tassie Marginals dated 19.10.07 - showing libs in front in Bass & Braddon.
I take it that’s old news? They all start to blur after a while.
Actually, that is a lie. Fraser came out and said Howard was lying and if wanted to prove that he wasn’t lying bring out his submissions and memos and paper work to the contrary. Howard shut up and never mentioned again. It was discussion between all the parties held in the GG. Howard did not want, support or intend any of those changes Keating/Hawke bought in. AND he complained bitterly against the supperannuation.
Old Piers has his “Heiner Affair” and Milne has his “Heineken Affairs”
Liberal Party policy is to have a surplus of punctuation by using it as little as possible. Hence P Gardiner and Glen’s never using it.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/rudds-decisive-win/2007/10/21/1192940905644.html
theres a good healdine
I checked the standing orders, and those inter-jections were ruled in order, on the grounds that we live in a liberal democracy.
I thought liberals knew a thing or two about liberty? Oh well, after the worm fiasco, maybe not…
I like the style of Tabitha and Glen. So I thought I would give it a go.
Rudd= Fresh and dynamic leadership
Howard= Old and Stale leadership.
How did I go?
Why were teh debate audience so well-behaved? They didn’t even clap or cheer at any stage of the debate, except after it was over. Why bother inviting 200 die-hard supporters from each side if they can’t do anything?
I would have liked the old music hall thing - hiss and boo the villains. Yell “he’s behind you!”. I had no problem with Costello interjecting. I wish Howard and Rudd had interrupted each other a bit. In fact, it appeared that one’s microphone was turned off when the other had the floor. A couple of times either Rudd or Howard made interjections, but the sound was muffled and off-mike. You don’t get a debate if you do that…you get a serious of answers to questions without notice.
No 889
I’m growing to dislike Mr Akerman the more time progresses. Even I, as a Liberal Party member, recognise the nonissue that is the Heiner affair and yet he bleats on about it on a weekly basis. Dumb.
newspoll on 19th is old news, but labor was in front in both seats
Generic Person
Are you worried that Howards going to lose in Bennelong?
Currrent polling shows him behind and Maxine is a high profile candidate.
You can argue the spin but the numbers don’t lie.
In the end, Id say biggest loser was Costello. Thats smirking schoolboy routine is close to the 2007 Latho handshake.
He’s gotta remember he’s running for PM this time too. He appeared seriously unfit for office tonight.
Antonio - if you are Howard you invite them because you know they are disciplined. It gives the public a feel of it being in front of ‘real people’ whilst Howard knows that they are all party hacks and will not do anything stupid like clap or jeer
Piers Ackerman - does anybody read him? At all? Maybe the Howard’s.
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