• Glenn Milne reports in the Sunday News Limited papers that “definitive” Labor polling “shows voter reaction to Mr Howard’s retirement plans has become a ‘blocker’ to the Coalition’s other campaign messages, devaluing the Government’s promises and policies in all key areas”.
• In the wake of Wednesday’s interest rate rise, much was said of marginal seats suffering high levels of mortgage stress. Nassim Khadem of The Age pointed to a concentration of such seats in the 5 per cent to 10 per cent range in Victoria, including La Trobe, McMillan, Corangamite, Deakin and McEwen. The Sydney Morning Herald noted that affected seats in and around Sydney included Lindsay and Parramatta, now all but written off for the Liberals, along with Dobell, Robertson and Macarthur.
• Michelle Cazzulino of the Daily Telegraph wrote on Wednesday that “confident Labor strategists are predicting an upset victory in Danna Vale’s electorate” of Hughes, held with a margin of 8.5 per cent. Joe Hildebrand of the Daily Telegraph named it with Macarthur and Paterson among seats Labor was targeting “in a strategy to spook the Government and draw precious resources away from a handful of must-win seats” – namely Lindsay, Dobell, Macquarie and Eden-Monaro.
• Dennis Shanahan of The Australian is always good for a dose of cold water. On Wednesday he related suggestions from state front-bencher John Aquilina that “NSW Labor Party polling in marginal seats is not as strong as published polling”. Aquilina would only say that Labor “would win the western suburbs seat of Lindsay and had a chance in Macarthur, Dobell and Eden-Monaro, but he doubted they could pick up more”. Labor’s chances in Bennelong and Wentworth were not rated, and talk of Robertson was dismissed as “a lot of hype”.
• The Coalition has nonetheless targeted Robertson with a promise to repair a section of the Old Pacific Highway at Somersby, which has been closed since a family of five was killed following a road collapse in June. The Newcastle Herald reports that “no dollar figure has been attached to the promise”, but it is expected to be around $10 million.
• In Eden-Monaro, Labor has promised to spend $23 million from Defence Department funds upgrading the road from Queanbeyan to the Joint Operations Command headquarters, which the government stationed in Bungendore in an especially shameless act of marginal seat pork-barrelling. Andrew Fraser of the Canberra Times notes Labor has failed to provide funding for the more dangerous section of the road from Braidwood to Batemans Bay, the business end of which has been redistributed to the almost-safe Liberal seat of Gilmore.
• Tim Colebatch of The Age detects good news for Labor in an enrolment boom in McEwen, La Trobe, Corangamite and McMillan. This is because the increases have been concentrated in the urban areas of these mixed electorates, which are the stronger for Labor. Even bigger increases have been recorded in Bennelong and Wentworth, though the impact here is harder to read. Jenna Price of the Canberra Times also notes a sharp increase in enrolment in the Australian Capital Territory, suggesting this increases the chances of a Greens Senate win at the expense of Liberal incumbent Gary Humphries.
• Andrew Burrell of the Australian Financial Review reports that “the Labor Party has launched a prime-time television advertising blitz aimed at saving the highly marginal Western Australian seat of Cowan, amid mounting fears that the retirement of popular MP Graham Edwards could deliver it to the Coalition”. With further Labor advertising focusing on Stirling, Burrell discerns “a sign that Labor is behind in those seats”, and is conversely confident of gaining Hasluck and retaining Swan and Brand (the latter of which has been the subject of some slightly surprising recent chatter). The report also says “ALP figures privately doubt the veracity” of the recent Westpoll survey showing them trailing in Cowan, Stirling and Hasluck. Those three electorates plus Swan have been the targets of the Perth variations on Liberal marginal seat television ads.
• Michael Bachelard of The Age reports that the Greens decided on Friday to direct preferences to Labor in every Victorian seat, which it has never done before. The decision was apparently made after Lindsay Tanner succeeded in embarrassing the Greens over split-ticket how-to-vote cards being distributed at a pre-poll booth in Menzies, held by bete-noir of the left Kevin Andrews.
• Sam Strutt of the Courier-Mail reports of “polling indicating a huge swing” in the Sunshine Coast seat of Fisher, which Peter Slipper holds for the Liberals on a margin of 11.4 per cent.
• The verdict from the wind chimes merchants of Dobell is in: “Everyone knows when Labor is in unions run the country”. Ken Ticehurst remains remarkably media-shy.
• Samantha Maiden of The Australian peruses a Poll Bludger comments thread. All good fun in my view, but the folk at Club Bloggery are not taking it lying down.
1,127 Comments
Why would anyone give Glenn bozo Milne the time of day let alone ‘Definitive’ anything.
well thw poisoned dwarf is at it again playing his part for the coalition dirt unit.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22738133-5006010,00.html
Samantha Maiden’s piece shows just how out of touch the Murdoch press is with the real world. Not even a serious attempt to analyse the blogging phenomenon, just name calling and spleen venting. Do they realise perhaps that their days of controlling what people think and read are numbered. The media in this country are a disgrace (witness the gay headline on the weekend), time for some serious enquiry into how they operate.
BTW, the Club Bloggery response is excellent, worth a read.
Good on Lindsay
……. If this helps deliver some seats to the ALP through preferences from the Greens, it will be a huge plus
Morning William, Was that morgage ‘Stress’ in para two or morgage ’seats’
Julie, the Greens preference thing highlights that they don’t really want to preference anyone but they need to think through the reaction to preferencing Kevin Andrews for example.
Labor is bad
Coalition is good!
Anyone is better
Than Kevin Andrews.
I’m glad that Milne has written a short piece throwing mud at the Labor party. Imagine the amount of copy he would have to produce if he began to seriously write about the factional brawling within the Liberal Party at both state and federal level.
I would suggest that he could begin with a piece on the Queensland coalition and work his way around the country. Finishing episode ten with a reason on why the Federal Coalition has been unable to resolve its leadership issues and giving reasons why such a rabble has become unelectable.
Whether anyone would take seriously anything Milne writes is another story.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22737888-5006009,00.html
It’s said that Janette supports capital punishment in ‘limited circumstances’
I suspect thats just in the case of political opponents. Watch out Peter and Kevin!
Ditto …… I don’t live in this electorate but surely anyone who does and votes for Andrews has heaps of explaining to do to justify why the actions he has taken in the Haneef affair have been a good thing. Because that is what you would be doing, justifying those actions as alright, IF you registered a vote of (1) Andrews in this seat.
Ave it 07, I guess it’s been a VERY long time between drinks for you Pom Tories. Utterly obliterated in 97, and still below 200 seats in a House of around 640. No wonder Howard’s your hero, but it sure looks like his days are numbered. Oh well, maybe you Pom Tories will get all the way to 250 seats in 2010.
the coalition is in overdrive distributing fake letters, heres more to add to the car manufacturers one trumpeted by Shanahan on the GG thursday, it’s about time these tricks were given more publicity.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/jason-koutsoukis/2007/11/10/1194329566789.html?page=2
Yep – seriously doubt anyone in the ALP would take the time to talk to Milne.
Lord D @ 12 – if Howard is the only hero for the Pommy Tories, I feel very sorry for them. Very sorry indeed.
13 Fake letters have always played a part in Federal election campaigns when there is a big swing on. I can’t personally remember a time that a fake letter helped out a dead or dying rabble who was about to be swept from power.
Usually it just goes into the mix of reasons why they are out of touch and must exit for the betterment of the nation.
15 On this basis the Pommy Tories will have a new hero in Gridlock Campbell of Brisbane City Council from November 25. Who will look after their interests from March next year when Gridlock Campbell is swept from office in the final roundup of Liberals by a disappointed public, though?
Does anyone have details of the scheduling time for the debate on Tuesday between Julia and Downer? I know it is Tuesday and is in Sydney, hosted by Laurie Oakes – but what I am trying to find out is the timing. I want to see it but if the thing is on during the daytime, I need to know so I can rearrange my day time schedule.
I checked 9msn’s website but no details were forthcoming there …..
12 – Hello Lord D – looking good for us Cons in Britain. Certs to win in 2010 with Camo!
But you Australians are lucky – you have the chance to elect another conservative government in a few weeks!
Poor MSM M/s Maiden, Shenanaghan et al, tried to stir up the Henny Penny narrative from Team Rodent that the teh evil unions would… (blah blah), but now Foxy Loxy in the form of the electors is primed to lop the heads off those messengers. The King will never get to hear that the sky is falling…(so sad, too bad, never mind)
And what a narrative it has been: interest rates hikes are good while being simultaneously bad, SerfChoices keeps wages low while simultaneously the workers have never had it so good; [underlying security narrative-we're killing teh evil terrorists over in Iraq so we don't have to kill the Dr Haneefs over here]; inflation is so bad that’s why we’re pork barrelling like there’s no tomorrow; vote for moi, Johnny Economic Angel today so I can retire tomorrow (beg beg, plead plead…grovel…plead); only we teh Economic Masters can handle the resources boom by spending it all on pork and Pacific Solutions…)
As to you scumbag, lying, lefty, evil unionist supporting blog posting filth, non respecters of our MSM Newspoll owning wisdom; communist, “wog” loving, homosexual louts etc etc:
Am so looking forward to some humble pie, crow eating therof from the GG, but then again, a Donald Rumsfeld time will undoubtedly come… “I/we never said that!” will be their ultimate defence.
Would’ve been fun if we had the Oz equivalent to http://www.backwardsbush.com
Bush has only 436 days 7hrs 1 min…to go….
equivalent of…
18 can’t find anything about this but it will be interesting if it turns out to be nuclear power that Downer still wants to debate about.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Downer-wants-debate-on-enriched-uranium/2006/05/21/1148150119875.html
Well, Crikey’s rumour was right in the end. From the Murdoch Press, only the hit day was a bit later and the target was Julia Gilliard rather than Rudd. Of course, 99% of posts in here predicted it would be Milne. I assume this will backfire even worse than the silly “Strippergate” smear that Milne dished out with all the sanctimony of a John Pilger.
How many woman out there have either been done dirt by some bastard or at least have close friends or relatives whose heart has been broken by some cad?
This will only enhance Gilliard’s public “image” as well as undermine any other stupid rubbish which might be thrown from the Coalition’s dirt units.
According to Hugh McKay, one of the factors in the major shift of Baby Boomers to Labor this election is a return to their ’60’s idealism, a significant aspect of which McKay reckons is the transformation in the status of women. Those Baby Boomers and the children they raised are not going to appreciate seeing a successful baby-boomer woman like Gilliard being slimed.
minchin is on press the meat (ch10)
I see where Adelaide’s ‘Sunday Mail’ has concluded that “VOTERS in a key South Australian election battleground have given Prime Minister John Howard a ringing endorsement, saying they are unsure if Kevin Rudd can handle the role of prime minister.” They used a focus group. How many people in the focus group? SEVEN.
Real scientific research that.
Sky has announced debates next week between the Education Minister and
Shadow on Thursday (back to back with the Foreign Affairs debate) and on Friday with the Communication Minister and Shadow. Friday’s affair is on an expanded Agenda late in the afternoon and don’t know the forum for the Thursday Education debate. The Foreign Affairs debate is midday at the NPC in Canberra.
Still seems that Nelson is the minister that they are hiding =)
23 Steve,
I think Pakistan will dominate the debate, although nuclear policies might get a bit of a go ………
Union ads blast Govt over AWAs
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/11/2087477.htm
The Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU) is stepping up its anti-government advertising as the election campaign enters its final fortnight.
Labor gets personal in campaign climax
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22737604-952,00.html
IN A dramatic switch in campaign strategy, Labor will use the last two weeks of the election to personally target Prime Minister John Howard.
The research will drive a new Labor advertising campaign featuring a picture of an untrustworthy-looking Mr Howard with the words, “He’s retiring”, and a stamp stating, “It’s official”.
To suggest that no one in the ALP would deal with Glen Milne is incredibly naive. Wayne Swan, and stephen Conroy in particular spend an enourmous amount of time and energy cultivating favour with that grub.
I have a feeling that it is starting to come together for Labor. The Murdoch press aren’t exactly on Rudd’s side yet but they are showing signs of acceptance of a Labor victory. On Greet the Mess this morn, Milne and other journo gave Minchin a hard time I thought. It looks as though the negative Labor ads are starting up and they do have lots of ammunition! If Newspoll on Tuesday is bad for the Libs, it’s game over. The Labor win will be seats in the 80s, no huge landslide. But, my inner soul wants to see those lying bastards absolutely destroyed for a long time to come.
It’s about time Sharan put her money where her mouth is.
Without a doubt, this is the most contentious issue of the election and this workchoices thing should be fazed out post haste.
I hate this and I”M AN EMPLOYER!!!
31 – not during this election.
Ave it #19, I take it there is a typo in your last line where you meant to say “eject” another conservative government.
Just amazing isn’t it. How to make Rudd look human and along comes strippergate. How to make Gillard look feminine and along comes cadgate.
If things go on like this the labor campaign team will go on strike insisting that the Liberal team stop doing their work.
Perhaps the labor team could balance things up by doing a few favors for the Liberals.
Please tell me someone has read the article in today’s Sydney Sun-Herald. By Miranda Devine – what John and Janette Howard “really” think of Kevin Rudd. Some pearlers from Howard:
* The electorate isn’t hostile, but they were when he was Treasurer – “I wasn’t PM then”. Although some people do come up and say you’ve “blanketdy blanked the country” or “I’ve been sacked unfairly blah blah blah blah” (actual quote), but it’s “all part of the fun”. So what if you were actually sacked unfairly, blah blah blah?
* Kevin Rudd doesn’t stand for anything
* Keating isn’t particularly intelligent
Who cares what Janette thinks, she isn’t a parliamentarian and secondly, why is Howard only telling us what he “really” thinks now, if he is so upfront.
Glenn Milne is already being forced to retract part of the dirt story:
Early editions of the Sunday Telegraph contained an allegation that Ms Gillard had incorporated funds used by Mr Wilson.
The Sunday Telegraph acknowledges that this allegation is entirely untrue. This error was made by The Sunday Telegraph.
Wayne Swan on Insiders now. Will Milne show up?
From the initial brief scan of the panel, it looked like Piers Akerman, David Marr and a woman, perhaps Mischa Schubert.
Cassidy gave Swan a good going over but Swan looked and sounded confident and assertive.
Was it me or was Barry Cassidy a bit easy on Swan?
Who are these knobbs on insiders????
Expect the Coalition to seize on Swan’s acknowledgement that there were economic mistakes made by the Hawke/Keating administrations – and that a Rudd Labor government will learn from them.
So who is right 41 or 42?
I have heard that out of the Howards, Janette is the rampant racist, not John. He has evidently taken many of his more despicable policies to shut her up.
Gary Bruce @ 45 – Swan was good and strong, but it seemed to me that Barry threw out a few Dorothy Dixers.
44 – such an acknowledgement can only go down well. It means Labor have learned form any mistakes made. No government is perfect. This government has made many mistakes and has admittied some, though not enough.
I wonder whether Labor is right now wrestling with the question: “Should we spend significantly less than the Coalition in election promises in the remaining two weeks in order to look more economically responsibe in the light of the interest rate rise and the statement by the RBA?”
41 and 42 – I thought it was pretty even handed (wink to gb)
The Barry Cassidy’s ABC Insiders panel this morning has Piers Ackerman, David Marr and Lenore Taylor from the Australian Fin. Review.
Before that, they had a “panel” of three “typical ordinary” working blokes from Flemington Race Course, with 2 of them strongly in favour of Howard. You can’t say the ABC isn’t doing it’s best to support Howard in any sneaky way possible.
Cassidy also gave Swan an extra tough interview to make doubly sure his program won’t be axed if Howard is returned. Piers is following up some of Barry’s key attack points now in the panel discussion.
Paul Kelly, despite being Murdoch media, was mostly being even-handed in his analysis, so he’s the “Good Cop” to Piers’ “Bad Cop” I guess.
50 – Thanks Bryce, that’s made it a lot clearer – NOT. (LOL)
I live in Fisher & it’s primed for a big swing. Slipper (ex Joh for pm) is invisible & there is a high profile FM breakfast announcer running as an independent.
The seat has lost tory Buderim & gained the Glasshouse Mountains hinterland which is angry over equine flu. Kawana/Caloundra is full of young mortgaged families. The council amalgamation is a non-event with Caloundra & Maroochy in favour of it. If the ALP runs 3rd, Slippery might get the boot.
Dear Samantha
Further to your article entitled ‘Blogged down in pessimism of the Left’ I provide this confession to you.
Firstly I will observe that my understanding is that you would not have been responsible for the title. Which is a little bit silly, as unhelpful as the old left – right tags are if you are left leaning with strong conviction you left the labor party in the 1980’s for pastures more green and less central.
Oh and your first sentence identifies us correctly as ‘labor loving pessimists’, the word infested is a little bit unnecessary, a little bit unkind and the implied comparison to lice a little bit hurtful. But we pessimists are a tough lot. Speaking about being a tough lot we wake to yet another sparkling, high quality bit of journalism from your publisher.
“Early editions of the Sunday Telegraph contained an allegation that Ms Gillard had incorporated funds used by Mr Wilson.
The Sunday Telegraph acknowledges that this allegation is entirely untrue. This error was made by The Sunday Telegraph.”
This disclaimer wasn’t even at the top of the story, and the story above still went as far as it could to link Ms Gillard through a couple of quite silly smears to the wrong doing of a former lover or partner.
Oh and did you note that the wrong doing appeared to have been discovered in 1995, that is quite a long time ago Sam. So it is a very very old, very very weak, and when your publisher first published it very very wrong story. But we are not surprised us ‘labor loving pessimists’ we see this kind or brilliant accurate and important journalism about Her Majesty’s opposition all the time.
We have even come to accept that your publisher will not publish a suggestion the Government is involved in actual misuse of power: why would it Crikey does that. We know Mr Milne, named as the writer of today’s brilliant, relevant and well researched piece holds a special love and respect for Crikey and wouldn’t try and compete in their space.
We do note that Crikey actually has a suggested wrong or misuse of power by the Government in their stories, whereas your publisher seems quite content with ancient stories of someone else’s wrong and a couple of vague proximity smears to Her Majesty’s opposition.
But then like Crikey your publisher can’t be expected to be better than its sources and it is apparent the Government dirt-unit is functioning about as well as the rest of the Government, but then again your publisher considers the Government to be functioning well so surely can’t be blamed for publishing weak, irrelevant and even wrong stories.
It is ironic that this mornings smear is still a desperate link ‘through Ms Gillard’s law firm’ because that old legal excuse, that a lawyer is only as good as her instructions seems to have a significantly poignant application to your publisher this morning.
But I digress we ‘labor lovinig pessimists’ are a tough lot and are used to this kind of situation.
Although I would ask you, how does it feel to have all my discussion so far based on a story credited to someone else? Your story as our beloved PB points out is a bit of harmless fun and this mornings effort is a serious article (although originally wrong) trying to directly impact voters away from the labor party during an election. How could I possibly be so unfair as to try and discuss your efforts through focusing on a completely unrelated article in a newspaper on a different day? Well may you ask.
But Sam there is a sentence of yours I did want to question. I know it was just a bit of fun, and when I read it I chuckled. But really you have summed up the situation for us ‘labor loving pessimists’, well. You have two almost perfect sentences.
The first:
“Each Newspoll is greeted with fear, trepidation, excitement and furious reinterpretation. The Australian’s analysis of the result is always wrong.”
Enough said really: although this admission should probably have been published by those who have consistently got both the analysis of the actual poll (and their prediction of the ‘narrowing’ in the next poll) wrong all year. It is a bit harsh making you put such a significant admission (yes I know it has been blatantly obvious to anyone reading the work of Bryan, PB or Possum all year but for your publisher still a very significant admission) in your piece of fun.
The second is:
“But now the blogs are starting to call that a comeback may be on for the Government – the great fear they have spent the year furiously denying. “
Now you would know, my dear Sam, that I could not and do not say it is impossible there is a ‘comeback for the Government’ on now, but your research lets you down in two ways. Firstly Bryan spent a lot of time and took a lot of flack for graphing the Government’s comeback, and to defend him, as I did at the time, the numbers did suggest for a period, nid-year, that there might be a Government comeback.
No no, Sam, stick with me, this is important: while the polling was clearly pointing to a labor landslide, if the numbers were repeated in a poll in a Federal Election, and while your publisher could not conceive of any outcome other than a victoriously returned Government, we ‘labor loving pessimists’ were actually reading and studying the possibility the blind faith of your publisher (blind faith in that it wasn’t just in the absence of evidence to support it, but actually completely contrary to all the evidence available) would be rewarded. And yes we ‘labor loving pessimists’ still fear it – greatly.
But leaving aside what is happening now as I write, and what will happen over the next two weeks, still a matter of inexpressible fear, you could perhaps have observed that we had nothing at all to deny: there has been NO GOVERNMENT comeback. Oh and yes I know your publisher never noticed the Government was behind until the PM himself gave permission in that well covered ‘annihilation’ talk to the Lib / Nat caucus, but still NO GOVERNMENT comeback, we don’t have to deny something that didn’t happen.
Finally my dear Sam, a couple of points.
Firstly Labor needs good female candidates for the next election (win or lose this one) and you will have noticed how consistently I’ve defended Ms Cornes against the ongoing abuse which I consider firmly grounded in sexism and little else. I will defend you too, it is my promise. Yes even as your former publisher tries to humiliate you and ground your reputation and soul into the muck, and even as apparently staunch labor pessimists inexplicably join in this abuse, I will defend you. Probably wont do either of us much good, but there you go, we ‘labor loving pessimists’ are a tough lot.
Lastly I look forward to you joining us tomorrow night, if are fears are realised with a 51:49 poll you will be able to write a great follow-up, full of humor, which none of us will be able to read through our tears which will last all week. If the narrowing your publisher is so intent on making happening fails, yet again to eventuate you will see a joy and happiness those stuck in the narrow mindset of your publisher have no chance of understanding and you will have a great insight into how to start the post Rudd-slide work with your publisher.
All my love, yours ever pessimistically
jas.
FFS ABC. Get rid of Hackerman.
Great open letter Jas
Jas 54, it would take me weeks to do that much typing! Well done!
Its hard for one who lives in Brisbane and doe’s not live with the advantages of day light saving having to hear the broadcast of political interviews being telegraphed to me & I have to wait an hour to see it myself. It sucks!
58 Aussieguru01 – we can’t all live in the best state in Australia (Vic).
So I guess you guys are saying that when I get to see Insiders I will be spending much time (again) hurling abuse at the TV every time Ackerman spews forth his perennial bile.
Cant wait.
Too true, Gary Bruce!
I’m now convinced Piers Ackermann is a complete dill. Just blatant spin for the Coalition.
62 Sondeo
Lenore Taylor is wiping the floor with Piers. She’s the best panel member I’ve seen on there all year.
Minchin on Meet The Press this morning.
He said, with emphasis, that the government wants to be fair to employees. Hence the ‘fairness’ test.
He agreed that the fairness test represents a major rollback of their own policy. Admitting therefore, that WorkChoices, as introduced, WAS unfair. (This is borne out by the report in Howard’s biography that the Cabinet introduced WorkChoices in the full knowledge that people would be hurt and worse off.)
Remember, this is the fellow who actually apologised to the HR Nicholls Society that WorkChoices (the unfair original) did not go far enough! Frankly, I think he is an extremist representing the dangerous cutting edge of right wing lunacy in Australia. Having vowed to take WorkChoices further, they cannot be trusted with another term.
Hemmingway @ 63
She’s not taking crap from Piers. He twists everything. He’s being shown up !
Very good editorial in the Sunday Mail about why not to vote for Mr X. It will make a dent in his vote. And they have strongly endorsed him in the past.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22736861-5006336,00.html
These reports confirm that there is more spin about polling than at the GABBA this week. Anyone who has the faintest idea what is going on in Western Australia has been consulting the entrails again. Westpoll is a joke and the mass media have one paper monopoly. All the regional papers bar one are owned by the West Australian. There are very few campaign stories in the regions in the electronic media. Even ABC News online has very little coverage despite its local radio network. ‘Labor View from Broome’
And the best thing about Jasmine’s excellent letter is that the grubs at News Ltd will read it, because we know they all sneak over to the blogs for a peek when no-one’s looking. Samantha Maiden, although she has been fairly quiet this campaign, is a notorious Liberal attack dog. (What’s the term for a female dog? I forget.)
Your right Gary & RGee, I should count my blessings.
I was tricked into reading a Miranda Devine article over at the SMH.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/federal-election-2007-news/tagteam-assault-by-howards/2007/11/10/1194329563863.html
It’s interesting because it shows that Nettie really does hold the leash and write the lines. It also shows that Howard is completely oblivious to the anti-Howard sentiment.
And another on their ‘It’s the economy’ approach.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Coalition-launch-to-focus-on-economy/2007/11/11/1194724810206.html
They still haven’t figured out that the more they talk about the economy, the more people worry about the security of their jobs, the more they worry about the impact of SerfChoices, the more they take on the experiences of friends and relatives with SerfChoices, and the more they think about not voting Liberal.
Sorry to be giving Spoilers to those who see the program later. Typical NSW-centric myopia! But you’ve got a real treat coming with Lenore Taylor. Without her, Cassidy would just do his usual feckless job of letting Piers run wild.
The thing I have loathed about the infiltration of the ABC Board, and subsequently the increased profile of obviously right-wing pundits, is that the ABC seems to have forgotten that it used to provide intelligent political debate. By all means have members of the right on to provide opinion, but can we please have intelligent and well measured opinions presented? I disagree with Gerard Henderson’s positions, but at least you know the man has a brain and knows how to use it. Piers Ackerman this morning was a disgrace. What on earth was his comment about “those women” who feature in the Labor Party ads. The sooner the ABC Board goes back to a central, less partisan position the better, and then my screen will no longer be subject to the idiocy that is Ackerman, Bolt and friends.
Rx @ 64
Good report. Thanks, I missed the show.
Lenore Taylor is just so damn sexy the way she puts Piers back in his box. Piers is the worst panelist on Insiders. Ever. All he does is spew Liberal talking points, and when questioned on it (as Lenore did beautifully this morning) he proved he either doesn’t understand what he’s saying or have anything to back it up.
At least other conservative panelists (Gerard Henderson, Glen Milne) are entertaining or can actually debate. Come on Aunty – boot Jabba the Hut and get someone worthwhile. Even (gasp) Miranda Devine would be better, God help me.
Insiders
Piers exposed for a fool – I doubt Lenore would agree to appear with him again. It’s like debating a 3 year old who’s just learnt the word ‘why?’ – he appears to be participating (if you’ve got the sound turned off), but the sh*t coming out of his head is unbelievable.
Like Howard, the meaning he attributes to words is so very different to that accepted by the general community.
David Marr and Lenore took the piss out of Piers and he didn’t even realise it – his time is up ABC; I can get that sort of crap from Today Tonight.
Good stuff Jas 54,off to watch Insiders now.Being an hour behind in Qld enables to pick and choose what to watch
BrissyRob,
I suggest you do what I do. Bring down the sock draw and throw them at the TV. My partneris getting cunning though. She also gets me to pair up the socks from this weeks wahsing between 8.30 and 9.00 every Sunday morning.
Keep Piers on; he’s just so hopeless!
Jai-mei – Jabba the Hutt is FAR more appealing than Ackerman.
Greeensborough Growler – LOL
Good idea!
Jas@54
brilliant letter-says it all really
well done
Further proof today that Hyacinth Howard is pulling the strings on her dopey husband. How dare she break convention and involve herself in an election campaign! The Liberals think this will actually help them? Of course the MSM won’t say a thing about this. You can imagine that if the situation was reversed and Rudd had attacked Mrs Howard, the hacks would be out there calling for Kev’s head on a platter – frigging hypocrites! I’ll be cheering loudly when the old bitch is dragged out of Kirribilli kicking and screaming!
I’m guessing that fat arsehole Ackermann gets more dinner invitations than Smirky to Castle Howard.
Lenore Nicklin has been the best journo on Insiders all year. She won’t take any crap from Toad Ackerman and the Bolter. George Mega is next best. Next year it would be nice to see some different right wingers on the show. I just hope there will be some subtle payback to some journos when Labor get in to power.
And does anyone here complain about David Marr’s blatant cheering and propaganda for the ALP?
Nope.
What pathetic hypocrisy.
Well in two weeks time some of us will wake up happy and some with a sinking filling. Many of us, regardless of political persuasion will wake up with a hangover.
I agree with what the consensus was on the Insiders: it’s only now that people (aside from us tragics) are really starting to pay attention to the election. I wonder whether the focus on the economy over the last week was poorly timed for the Coalition, the campaign launches may swing the debate back to other issues. My other question is I wonder what is in the Tele Bennelong poll and will this swamp tomorrows Liberal campaign launch?
Interesting to see the Liberals switching to targetted seat advertising: ‘everyone for themselves’ or a clever seat-by-seat bit of trench warfare? I’m amused that it takes the new ALP ads to remind everyone who leads the party that Liberal candidates represent, as the candidates don’t seem keen to remind voters in their ads.
And $500,000 for orang-utans! Interviews with the target constituency clearly show that this is a plus for the Government:
http://pizdaus.com/pics/VReArDcLTeQ3.jpg
Tim Gartrell? You mean the mastermind of the 2004 debacle is still there?
Geezuz.
Isabella – its a small drop in the ocean compared to the huge media bias toward the Coalition generally.
Isabella, if you bothered reading what I wrote you would see that I was not crticising Piers for being a Liberal mouthpiece; I was crticising him for not being able to carry an argument, understanding what he was saying, and being entertaining.
David Marr does not have any of those problems and therefore deserves to be on the show.
Obviously you have similar mental limitations to your buddy Jabba there.
DAivd Marr is annoying but Piers the Hutt is in a pathetic league of his own. At least Marr echoes public opinion. Jabba the Ackerman echos HR Nichols.
Isabella, what is pathetic is you jump straight to attacking the posters on this blog.
Classic Piers, “there is no housing affordability crisis”
Why oh why do we get him or Bolt, they are nothing but Tory loonies. And yes, Lenore is brilliant. George Megalogenis also good value, we need some objective panellists on this debate.
Also loved the highlighting of the ‘roads, rates and rubbish’ approach now being taken. Time to expose these frauds. These are local gov and state gov responsibilities. Unless of course they are talking about rodent plot to have nuclear waste dumps in Oz, which of course is why they built the Alice Darwin rail. Or the road to hell they plan for the workers under serf-choices perhaps.
cenatur at 43: “Who are these knobbs on insiders..?”
Just the usual bunch of conservative lotus eaters carping-on with insightful stuff like this:
David: “Although Labor is ahead now, there’s still 2 weeks to go and people don’t really wake-up and pay attention until the second last week of a campaign, don’t you agree Piers?”
Piers: “Oh yes, I have to agree with you there, David. I don’t think people have tuned-in to the election yet.”
Nauseating.
Worse still, irrelevant.
There’s also an air of unreality about it all. They sit there in their sequestered little set and spout this stuff, week after week, steadfastly ignoring what the polling has universally been saying for the last 9 months and running their own inane little narratives, none of which are going to have any impact or traction.
They’re like a Tory version of Big Brother, except that we don’t get the option of voting the wankers off the show.
Outside (if you look) you can just make out the top of the approaching Electoral Tsunami as it rushes over the horizon toward the set.
@85 Isabella
Put it this way.
No.
Apologies there were a couple of typos, the worst is ‘are’ instead of ‘our’ in ‘if our fears are realised’.
Are organg-utans represented in marginal seats?
I’m all for protecting endangered animals, but a bizarre announcement from the Rodent.
‘Serf choices’ –
brilliant.
Why do people like Piers Wackerman have any credibility at all. There is no evidence, no support, its just a spewing of the way he would like to see the world. Let me see, we don’t want to face reality so we deny it, its just to much. He was unbelievable this morning, can anyone remember a Journo ever being so Rabidly Left-wing?
If politicians were so comprehensively wrong on so many issues they would be slammed by these jokers, but it seems to be a trait of these ‘oppinion’ writers.
For instance, how does Bolt continue to draw a salary when he has been so totally discredited as a Global Warming Sceptic.
It is Bizzare……..
That orangutan utube ad with Howard was the most bizarre thing that I have ever seen that is not supposed to be comedy satire. That image of Howard pushing the kid in the wheelchair was UNBELIEVABLE.
It was PURE SKETCH COMEDY OF THE HIGHTEST ORDER.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear!
HOW SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!
Actually it was pure South Park.
Timmmmmy! Jimmmmy?
Can’t wait to watch Insiders (I’m over here in Perth – 30 mins to go!) What in the hell does Ackerman do to justify his continuing employment? I mean, even the Bolter occasionally adopts a sensible compassionate position on issues (cf. Sudanese immigrants) all that fat fraud does is parrot Liberal PR releases or spread looney tunes conspiracy theories. Lets hope Madam Lash gets thrown off the ABC Board after the Ruddslide, maybe we’ll then see some balance
The only way that the Coalition can get back in the race from here is if the major focus of the campaign shifts to Kevin Rudd – who is he, what does he really stand for? In other words, try to challenge the basic assumptions built into the decisions made by hundreds of thousands of voters to shift to Rudd.
The problem for the Coalition is that this will be nigh on impossible to achieve given that Labor is about to turn up the heat on the whole question of Howard’s looming retirement and the handover to Costello.
This sums up the enormity of the Coalition issue: In a contest that is about leaders more than anything else Rudd can never be the issue when the Coalition leadership outlook is so messy.
Piers makes even Andrew Bolt look reasonable by comparison. Bolt sometimes criticises the Gov’t over individual issues and acknowledges that they’re going to lose. Piers lives in a parallel universe where, if Howard was caught sacrificing babies to Baal, a justification could be spun.
Taronga Zoo is in the seat of North Sydney. Maybe the Rodent is trying to help out lard arse Hockey?
The Liberals have reached a low ebb when they are shamelessly exploiting a 10 year old boy with cerebal palsey.
Is ‘Insiders’ repeated or ’streamed’ from anywhere?
Hey folks, care to join my ‘enlightening Insiders of the worthlessness of Piers’ campaign? Drop them a quick note here to immeasurably improve the show: http://abc.com.au/insiders/contact.htm
What is this thing with Howard and soft toys in this election? Is he regressing?
Insiders is repeated on news radio at 11am.
@106 Pancho
No Everytime someone with half a brain tunes in and just sees Ackerman Labor’s primary vote goes up %10. When Ackerman flatulates throuh his mouth, Labors primary vote goes up 70%.
That’s not me talking thats science.
I have sent a complaint to the ABC this morning about the Insiders panel.
There is no point having Ackerman on there. He offers nothing in insightful commentary and simply parrots the government line. David Marr isn’t much better, he always says the opposite.
Can I suggest that everyone fires off a complaint to the ABC about the panel make-up, and requesting some more impartial commentators (such as Lenore Taylor)?
Here’s mine:
You can submit your comments at the following link:
http://abc.net.au/insiders/contact.htm
Over on the ABC website there is a vote on SerfChoices – Is it a shambles?
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/poll/vote/default.htm
Andrew Bolt is loony as well. His reason why the Iraq war has not been given a run this election campaign is that the war has been won by the ‘coalition’ and Iraqis are now in control of their country.
Akers and Bolt – from another planet, but I know not which one.
I cant find a link to John the Orangutan anyone got it? Quick cause its Bound to be pulled very soon once they realise the enormity of their miscalcuation, Ive got to downlaod it before then….
Interesting article by Jason Koutsoukis in the Sunday Age, about the desperate measures taken by the Lib campaign director to deflect attention from Howard’s appalling ’sorry’ performance. Only thing he’s wrong about is Michael Kroger:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/jason-koutsoukis/2007/11/10/1194329566789.html
Isabella – David marr is a recognised gay, leftie so it wouldn’t be surprising if he supported ALP policy. He is an accomplished author who has highlighted some of more disgraceful behaviour of the Howard government.
@112
Uranus. Or should I say Theiranus
Howard and the orangutans have two things in common: they are both endangered species, and both of their habitats are being destroyed.
I’m happy to help save those adorable monkeys, but my sympathy doesn’t extend to one hasbeen Rodent and his bitch of a wife.
Sure Bolt is looney. But he doesn’t always sound like a government mouthpiece.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ev6zrVV_UQ
this is the orang-utan clip
Ashley @ 110
I understand that Matt Price is unwell and on leave, once again an excellent commentator, hope he is on the road to recovery.
I think orangutan ad has been pulled already cant find it.
I loved Piers line that Latham was like an idiot savant, he had some brilliant areas despite the rest. The rejoinder from Lenore-yeah the ideas you agree with. He is a fat moron. PS Why are so many Howard Huggers in the media morbidly obese-Akerman, Shanahan, Milne, Kelly?
Howard has an affinity for the Great Apes:
http://www.geetan.com/images/content/bush_monkey.jpg
THANK YOU RGEEE
the best mouthpieces cover themselves in a cloak of independance and individualism.
diogene, yeah that was the funniest thing I’ve ever heard Piers say.
No, it is still there, just had a look. Poor bloody kid, enough to give him nightmares and flashbacks for the rest of his life having a giant rat burst in like that
Labor will be lucky to win any new seats in SA if the Murdoch press continues in the vein of today’s Sunday Mail.
1. The front page splash is the old beat-up about how Julia Gillard’s former lover defrauded the AWU. The scam is explained at length on Page 4 with lots of innuendo.
2. Page 5 leads with “Doubt over Rudd as PM” – a Galaxy focus group’s finding in Kingston. Reports from a more favourable focus group in Makin are buried low in the story. Makin Lib candidate Bob Day is pictured shaking the hand of a supporter.
3. Nick Xenophon is derided on Page 7 for his alleged lack of action in trying to save the Murray. (Also on Page 7, Kevin Rudd warns of new IR plan and is pictured with supporters. This is the only positive thing for Labor in the paper).
4. An extraordinary editorial occupies Page 41 – “Why Mr X does not deserve your vote”. Obviously Rupert doesn’t want the Coalition to lose its grip on the Senate.
5. Glenn Milne on Page 42 tells “Why Rudd is engaged in a giant ruse”.
6. Piers Ackermann on Page 43 invokes Mark Latham and ‘exposes’ how Rudd’s using “phony crises … to scare votes from punters”. With old pic of Rudd and atham.
Almost wall-to-wall sleaze and smear.
1
I would urge all ALP supporters to attend their local Walk against Warming rally today.
Its a topic that the ALP owns, and numbers will make the difference in terms of media coverage.
Plus its a damn good cause.
http://www.walkagainstwarming.org/
Howard looks like a dirty old man in that youtube ad. He’s all over that kid! Someone call DoCS.
William, what have you done with Kevin Andrews? The link to Menzies doesn’t work. Mind you no need to hurry in finding him.
If the “orangutan kid vid” doesn’t cut through, the next step might be a story with a sombre Howard peering in to the camera saying “Today, I lost a good mate”.
While we are on youtube, check out this one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_zulGddP6o
hilarious.
Misogynist woman haters for Labor
Because woman should know her place
How thick are some people?
The programme from day one has had a left-winger, an ‘independent’ and a mainstream media representative. Quite rightly it makes the programme more entertaining and interesting than three left-winger bed wetters carrying on about rubbish like the Tampa for the millionith time.
So today:
David Marr was on the crappy show because he is the token left-wing journo.
Piers was on the show because he is the token mainstream journalist.
Lenore Taylor was on the show because she is meant to be the token ‘independent.’ Which is in fact a usual ABC furphy as Taylor is as independent as its former ALP Press Secretary broken down host B. Cassidy.
Get over it. Mainstream Australia tolerates the mincing, sanctimonious twaddle, bitchiness and bias of David Marr. Put up with Piers or turn on Video Hits.
Ackerman? Mainstream? Am I missing something?
God the Samantha Maiden piece boiled my blood. How dare she slag us all off as a bunch of Labor-loving pessimists…she’s analysed a Poll Bludger comments thread in exactly the same way the GG “analyses” the newspolls themselves: find a tiny little bit of hope for the govt. (in this case a couple of nervous commenters) in amongst hundreds of other indicators which all point to an ALP landslide. Suddenly, we, apparently a cohesive community, are collectively “calling a comeback for the government”. I’m really hope someone labours the point with the Murdoch press in the weeks after the election when Labor wins between 85 and 95 seats, they are proven completely and utterly wrong, and the Neilsen polls, the ABC with Antony, William, Simon J and Possum will have all got it roughly right.
I don’t want Piers or Marr. I want non-partisan commentary.
Desperately seeking attention Tabitha
Who was the deputy L/NP Women,
Isabella: do you fantasise about a roll in the hay with Piers and Glen Milne?
Isabella reckons Peirs is mainstream…..
The Galaxy research group cracked me up.
There were seven in the Kingston Group of which 5 said they would support the libs.
Of those 5, they quote a 59 year old who is clearly in Howards demographic. A 49 year old, who is bordering on that demographic. A 32 year old nurse who identifies herself as being conservative by nature.
In the Makin group they quote a 59 year old retiree and a 51 year old who says he has always voted liberal. Yet the article says that the survey was of swinging voters.
So the “swinging voters” survey was stacking with Howards demographic, including many rusted on supporters.
The lies just continue!
A KEY minister has dismissed as a Labor lie claims the Howard government didn’t win a mandate for its industrial relations (IR) reforms at the last election.
Finance Minister Nick Minchin today said the government had set out its plans before the last election for labour reforms including abolition of unfair dismissal laws.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22739263-5001028,00.html
#128 Murdoch may have to face his own impotence this election. None of that will make the slightest difference in SA.
My guess is new lts will get wind of their newfound irrelevance before the 24th, and change sides to cover their arses, and muddy the waters.
I think we know what to expect from the Murdoch press for the next 2 weeks.
Why on earth did I ever think Rupert might give Rudd his support?
Ashley
yeah I thought it looked like a P priming video……
I want to know what Isabella and Tabitha think about being called “Labor loving pessimists”. Samantha Maiden said it, so it must be true.
Women like Tabitha (hating their lives and themselves) drag the rest of us down and belong in the Liberal party.
Strong independent women like me who don’t depend on men to define us are Labor ‘can do’ chicks.
That’s basically it, the bitterness of Tab and Isabella is mainly directed at themselves, though they’ll never have the self esteem to be able to realise that.
Phil @ 128
“2. Page 5 leads with “Doubt over Rudd as PM” – a Galaxy focus group’s finding in Kingston. Reports from a more favourable focus group in Makin are buried low in the story. Makin Lib candidate Bob Day is pictured shaking the hand of a supporter.”
This headline is based on the outcome of a focus group of 7 people in Makin & 7 in Kingston – hardly a reasonable sample & clearly out of line with the results of the polls with much larger sample sizes.
Is this blatant political bias or just incompetent journalism? Either way, this type of headline should not be published.
Anyone in SA should write to the editor demanding better.
@128 Phi Robbins
That’s disgusting.
Rupert is at it in NSW as well. Every political article was anti-Labor or pro-Liberal today. Steve Price got into the act as well just to prove how “objective” his Garrett gaffe effort was. Pure piffal.
Maybe we should close down these sites, if the Tories ever got the idea that you should base decisions on objective, scientific data, and try not to let your own bias and wants cloud your judgement, they may get back into Government before the next 4 term cycle.
F*** you’re funny Isabella. Piers Akerman – mainstream journalist. Made my day!!!! LOLOLOLOL.
Isabella, Piers is more biased than Marr. Marr has been known to criticise Rudd and Labor. Piers has never criticised anything that Howard has ever done, ever. Moreover he twists every single point to try and turn it into a positive for Howard. This morning it was agreeing with the comments of Latham to suit the purposes of an attack on Rudd.
P.S. he is a fat selfish pig – he is the idiot savant, only without the occasional brilliance.
Yeah right Jai-mei.
The Liberal Party sees talented women promoted on the basis of merit.
The Labor Party promotes women through quotas and strong-arm tactics from the laughable Emily’s List and Australia’s most incompetent premier ever Joan Kirner.
Every woman who wins preselection wins on a level playing field, on the basis of merit.
Liberals – Julie Bishop, Helen Coonan, Sophie Mirabella, Connie Fierravanti-Wells, etc.
Labor – Sharon Grierson, Nicole Cornes, Kelly Hoare, Julie Owens, etc.
Labor women rely upon the men to change their Party rules and give them a seat in Parliament – when it suits them.
Go back to your quotas Jai-Mei – you’re probably so incompetent, so useless and so clueless you’ll need it.
You know, in China, one of the reformists came up with this idea to mimic press freedom: papers may criticise govt policy, as long as they do so no more than 20% of the time. The other 80% must be fawning and appreciative of the politburo’s wisdom.
Im starting to wonder whether the Chinese press isnt more independent of government than News Ltd.
I’m not sure why I’m biting, but anyway…
Isabella, the problem is not with having a rightist analyst on the show. This adds confrontation and makes for interesting viewing. Personally I have no problem with any of the right figures and quite enjoy the Bolter’s devils advocacy on there, particularly of late.
The problem with Piers is that he is out of his depth, intellectually. When questioned by Taylor this morning on a host of positions at one time his response was ‘well thats what I think’. This isn’t highschool, I don’t really want to know what Piers just thinks without him being able to back it up. Add to this his ‘those women’ comments, trying to use Latham as a credible witness for his arguments (and I could go on) is just annoying. He is unable to move with the sweep of any arguments, and so tries to obfuscate.
I have no problem with the general structure of the panels Insiders has, but I just think that Piers aint up to the task.
Basil Fawlty
Matt Price is fighting for his life at the moment and I, like many are worried and wishing the best for him.
Caroline from the Oz informed me last week.
I miss his blog.
Is that mainstream as in sewer?
Just a note re this morning’s ‘Insiders’. The vox pop segment purported to show three male stable hands at Flemington racecourse. The guy on the left was none other than trainer Mark Kavanagh. While eagerly pushing the Howard/Costello barrow, he referred to the amount of champagne drunk during the Melbourne carnival, some of it do doubt by him and his owners.
Kavanagh’s Melbourne spring horses included Devil Moon, Lady Madonna and Maldivian. Mixed fortunes with Maldivian but great results with the two mares.
I would not have thought it wise for Kavanagh to project such a partisan tory viewpoint. He may, wrongly, think that all owners of ‘good’ horses vote Liberal!
Thanks Scaper, that is what I understood, a good journo and I am sure we all hope for his speedy recovery.
Such vitriol Isabella! Just a tip: I’m not sure that personal insults hurled across the net to people you don’t know is strengthening your arguments.
Phil,
I get the Sunday Mail delivered but if this is what they are going to produce next week as well, well they can shove it up their #@!K and I will go and get the Sunday Age instead.
Absolutely, disgraceful.
And since when has a focus group of 7 been a representative sample. I can only hope that the ALP is elected in a landslide and then they can together with assistance of the minor parties give payback in spades.
What has our media become?
On another topic, went and saw Lions for Lambs yesterday – good film.
@154 Sammuel
I believe the term you searching for is one I coined myself
‘Idiot sans savant’
I think you.
Oh Isabella, get over it. So Julie Bishop’s relationship with Senator Ross Lightfoot had nothing to do with her getting preselection?
I just love the Liberal’s selective presentation of the facts. Yes, trot out the ‘independent’ woment to show you’re a party of opportunity.
Put your Liberal talking points elsewhere sweetheart.
62 sondeo Thats not spin it’s propaganda!
errrr
I thank you.
#160
Maybe they should have spoken to horse trainers from NSW?
Latham on Piers from hansard.
http://parlinfoweb.aph.gov.au/piweb/view_document.aspx?id=2188481&table=HANSARDR
Scaper…. Caroline informed us all (i.e. it was in her blog).
Isabella @ 155 says “The Liberal Party sees talented women promoted on the basis of merit.”
Yep, even the deliberately barren ones …
85
Isabella Says:
November 11th, 2007 at 10:23 am
And does anyone here complain about David Marr’s blatant cheering and propaganda for the ALP?
Nope.
Well, Isabella, let me help you since you’ve seen fit to throw out an accusation with backing it up with specifics.
It’s not about which side of politics they support, but about the soundness of their arguments. David Marr too often can’t contain expressing his contempt for Piers through facial expressions, laughter and sarcasm. This only enables Piers to further indulge in absurdities like, “Rudd’s campaign is completely hollow.” Lenore Taylor repeatedly nailed Piers’ nonsensical comments through specific rebuttals backed up by relevant, valid evidence.
David Marr does not seem to put in as much hard yakka as one saw on “Media Watch” (the program’s staff must have done most of it), which undermines his effectiveness on the “Offsiders”, so I would place him on a par with Bolters for putting forward compelling viewpoints. Nevertheless, both Marr and Bolt avoid indulging in the sort of wildly spurious remarks which Piers grinds out like putrid sausages. Compared to Piers, even Milne is a paragon of credible argument.
Favourite Insiders Moments:
George M in around Sept 2006: I think the australian public may be about to turn their attention to the opposition and consider what they have to offer, they may stop listening to the government. (or words to that effect)
a remark that was loudly derided by Bolt at the time as absurd, (prosperity, record this lowest that, PMs approval ratings etc). Even Barrie suggested it was “a big call”.
David Marr to Piers Ackerman: leaning forward with palms open “Piers, why do you want to waste everyone’s time?”
Insiders generally spews forth the latest accepted version of the official public narrative, (anything Paul Kelly wants to say), but the George M remark and other gems show the capacity of some panelists to cut through the guff.
Isabella @ 155: an intriguing list of super competent Lib women. Clearly you apply unique criteria to your definition of such a category. Julie Bishop has probably been the wroist education minister in at least a decade; Helen Coonan has absolutely no idea about her portfolio and seems to be mostly concerned with handing out vast funds to SingTel; Sophie Mirabella is an apprentice attack dog, and intemperate to boot; and ‘Connie’ Fierravanti-Wells is motivated by a paranoid hatred of the ABC which does not augur well for her mental health. In my humble opinion. And please, if you dislike us all so much, could you just nick off?
Ta.
Don’t worry Scribe, trainers like Kavanagh are scared sh*t that if Labor wins they might have to pay their stable hands something that may even resemble a decent wage.
We had another reminder of the determined bias that David Marr puts out, this time on the apology question again.
Just minutes before Lenore T had given quite a good analogy of the two uses of the word “sorry”, using a tale of the dog next door that had been run over.
Minutes later, David Marr is trying to say Howard is the only person to have come up with that distinction, no proper thinking person would make that distinction etc etc.
I should listen to Lenore more often
Has anyone here had a look at the seat of Ryan in Brisbane, 10% margin to Libs but has swung before at a by-election from memory. Sportingbet has Labor at $3.05, might get me some of that methinks!
Isabella, You say that Coonan and Bishop were promoted on merit! Two more profoundly incompetent ministers have never existed. If they are the best the Libs can do, it is obvious why the Coalition are doomed.
Sophie Mirabella and Connie Fierravanti-Wells, what pathetic excuses for human beings. Bigoted, far right wing shrews. After the election they will be promoted too, no doubt. Their more obvious presence will just make the Coalition even more unelectable. Eleven long years of appalling waste of Australia’s potential are about to finish. The coalition will be a rump and the Libs that are left will be dominated by the far right wing trash, like Alex Hawke, and your favourite ladies. No recipe for a comeback there. They can’t think straight, and their inflexibility and complete lack of empathy with normal human beings will see the Federal Liberal Party sink to the pathetic level of the state NSW and Queensland branches.
You and Piers deserve each other.
cheers,
Alan H
Rx, worked for me with firefox.
You really have to give the News Ltd journos credit!
They may all be a pack of morons with no sense of reality and very little knowledge in economics or politics, but they are all OLYMPIC WORLD CLASS ARS LICKERS.
I wonder which one would win the gold medal?
179 Rx, Mine did not work either, suspect Madam Lash has been down to ABC HQ perhaps?
You could also use the form at — they will forward it on I think
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/abctv/contact.htm
Anyway, I was interested in the economic stuff Swan got onto this morning, particulary thre important argument about wages and productivity.
the colaition takes the view (as Howard and Costello have indeed clearly expressed from time to time) that productivity is somehow boosted by reducing the share of one factor of production (labour) while maintaining constant output. In other words, cutting wages.
However, the problem we have at the moment is that inflation is rising largely because our capacity to produce is constrained by limited capacity. We can reduce inflationary by reducing aggregate demand via fiscal retrenchment and wage deregulation, or we can increase productivity and thus improve capacity. The former implies that people at the bottom of the skills pile will do quite badly but doesn’t guarantee that wages (in the aggregate) will be restrained – people with skills in demand will be able to demand whatever price they like.
Productivity improvements, on the other hand, particulary if they involve infrastructure investment (broadband, railways, etc) and eduication and re-training will increase the economy’s capacity to reduce inflationary pressure w/out requiring that the low skilled get screwed.
This is the Labor message. Simple really. Swan I think actually gets this but it propbably needs to be spelt out to folk like B. Cassidy et al, so that they may utilise their unique skills as communicators and transmit the message to the people. Am not holding breath waiting for this to occur.
Ashley, I have tried with Firefox and Internet Explorer. Same error message in both. Will empty caches and try again later.
A personal highlight of the election campaign so far has become Miranda Devine’s interview with John and Janette (Sun Herald, Nov 11). Janette and John can both reassure us that Rudd knows nothing about economics. here’s the punchy par from a deep question from the incisive Miranda….”One thing we know is that he doesn’t know anything about economics,” said Mrs Howard, in an interview at Kirribilli House on Friday, alongside her husband of 37 years.
“No, he knows nothing about economics,” said Mr Howard. “He’s very uncomfortable whenever he gets questioned about economics, going back to the famous [June] interview with [ABC Radio's] Chris Uhlmann about productivity.
No follow up question about their proof for this statement.
How about this… read it and understand why Devine gets the access to the Pm and Janette that she does. They know she will toe the line. Butt Monkey is what the American’s call it I think.
[But] far and away the best campaigner I’ve ever faced was Hawke, who was highly intelligent; a far more intelligent man, in my opinion, than [Paul] Keating.”
The Prime Minister was speaking after a lunchtime outing to Penrith Plaza, in the marginal western suburbs seat of Lindsay, the heart of Howard battler territory.
Walking through shopping malls, trying to make friends, might not be everyone’s cup of tea but, for Mr and Mrs Howard, it’s a highlight of the election campaign, giving them the pulse of the electorate, outside polls that stubbornly point Labor’s way.
“We quite enjoy going through shopping centres,” Mr Howard said.
“People are nice,” Mrs Howard said, sitting beside him in their harbourside living room.
“Yes, people are nice,” he said. “You just meet such an extraordinary range and you can get a sense of what is the mood of people.”
Blah Blah Blah its hysterical The Chaser couldn’t have done it better.
People are nice yes people are nice.
Just one final point…”their harbourside living room”. ???/ Tha’ts our harbourside living room which Howard misappropriated from us. We should all be there on November 25 with the moving vans to make sure he doesn’t stay a minute longer.
RGee at post 119, many thanks for the Orang-Utan clip, it was bloody hilarious.
I think the election has just entered the Twilight Zone, folks: Howard is now throwing pork at monkeys.
It’s bizarre.
The guys in the white coats with the medications can’t be too far away now.
They should have used the old Tom Lehrer song “They’re Coming To Take Me Away, Ha Ha” as a musical background to the clip IMHO.
BB @170, lol.
But EVERYTHING is secretly centralised around scaper, didn’t you know
it’s all “project business”
Gillard will be PM one day
Choke on that, you know who you are.
Piers is going to be up the creek if the ALP win after what he pulled on Rudd a few weeks back.
It’s not surprising, therefore, to see him gunning hard at this point in the campaign. He has everything to lose.
Hyacinth will certainly be dragged out on the 25th kicking and screaming, HH. Kirrbilli Removals will be there, and it won’t be pretty.
Just watch her taping prawn heads to all the desks, leaving the water running and other assorted tricks as she leaves. She wont be going quietly.
I just pity the residents of Wollstonecraft — “there goes the neighbourhood”…
Just listening to Insiders on News Radio. Lenore Taylor and David Marr have strong views but occasionally surrender a point or two, but Piers on the other hand wants to win every single argument. He doesn’t give on any subject no matter how illogical his view. That’s what makes him a bad journalist, his inability to give in to logic and fairness on even the smallest point.
Ah, the generic contact form (183) appears to accept the message. Thanks Ashley.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/abctv/contact.htm
Basil, would not surprise me if Madamme Lash is indeed cracking the whip round the Insiders office.
“A KEY minister has dismissed as a Labor lie claims the Howard government didn’t win a mandate for its industrial relations (IR) reforms at the last election.
Finance Minister Nick Minchin today said the government had set out its plans before the last election for labour reforms including abolition of unfair dismissal laws.”
I don’t think that will play…. It’s a bit “oh, didn’t you read the fine print?”
So when do the Howards need to get out of Kirribilli House, assuming a loss? Is there a precedent here? How long will they be given?
Heckle me all you like as it is expected in this and my skin is thick….not my head.
Have a good day all.
Looks like being a torrid two weeks, with the Murdoch press once again barracking heavily for the conservatives. No doubt there will be editorials in every Murdoch paper the day before the election,as usual, explaining why voters should vote for the retiree rather than Kevin Rudd.
Once again it will have zero effect on voters’ intentions just as it did in the last NSW state election.
It might just do Murdoch’s interests in Australia some damage, however, as they will find Kevin Rudd no pushover after the election.
He will be exceedingly tough.
The biggest negative for the Coalition is John Howard himself and that’s why he will be targetted in the last two weeks.
Why would Australians vote for someone who is about to retire?
It makes no sense.
They can’t be sure either that Peter Costello would take over. It could well be the egregious Tony Abbott. Who really knows?
Just who would be Treasurer? If Peter Costello were indeed to PM it wouldn’t be him.
Australians are being asked to vote for a pig in a poke.
Add the WorkChoice fiasco, no action on global warming, squandered surpluses and so on to the equation and clearly the electorate would be sensible to vote for a new team to clear up the mess and provide ongoing, not temporary, leadership for the country.
Right wing commentators fearful of losing their power base can froth at the mouth all they like but it will have no effect on Australian voters.
Well Insiders was the usual shite. Why do they bother with Marr and P.ackerman? Both are fighting old fights.
Piers and his bloody “centralised wage fixing”! You d*ckhead, the ALP got rid of it, why would they bring it back? As they would say in the arny, he’s a waste of rations.
And Marr, well I agree with a lot of what he says, but there’s little point to his being there. He hates Howard so much, they should wait till Howard is gone before inviting him back.
But, oh Lenore…
@195 Pancho
Well the bunker will be cleared out by the russians but before that Abbot and Dwoner have orders to take the Howards out into a shallow pit in their backyard and set them on fire……….then give them cianide.
Exactement, paul k.
Hey Pancho, local authorities are pretty tough on rodent infestations, suspect not long.
I stopped buying newspapers from one particular organisation ages ago. The journalism is poor, misleading and factually wrong. You do your money, it gives you the sh*ts and you get your hands dirty from turning the pages.
Newspapers as oppossed to the net is a bit like the Dessicated Coconut and Rudd, OUT WITH THE OLD AND IN WITH THE NEW!
“Piers is going to be up the creek if the ALP win after what he pulled on Rudd a few weeks back”
Piers is going to be fine, so will be Bolt and all the others. When Rupert departs the mortal coil and News is carved up and the Australian newspapers have a new owner is the only chance of real change in these newspapers.
So scaper any update on your teaser post from yesterday?
Its a bit silly the clamis on here that the media is on Howards side. From what I can see the ABC, Channel seven, Channel nine, channel 10, The Age, SMH all favour the Wax Farmer. But you lot complain that the murdoch newspapers are barracking for Howard. They seem to be fairly balanced if you ask me.
Using the generic contact form you can put in the name of the program, and you
can tick the box to request a response.
Love the headlines on the Tel and Sunday Mails around the country. “Julia’s Broken Heart”
It may have been an attempt at smear, but it has been spun in the headlines like she is Lizzy Bennett getting taken in by George Wickham.
Pure gold. I’m thinking 90 seats if the Libs keep helping out the ALP this way.
This looks like another Site to watch on election day
http://orgburo.com/elections/electionnight.php?select=Bennelong
For info on the site checkout
http://ozforums.com.au/viewtopic.php?id=1667
Howard is worried about the Orang Utans in Indonesia, yet Australia has the worst mammal extinction record in the world:
http://www.awc.org.au/wildlifeextinctioncrisis2.asp
Rudd should try and keep the focus of the last few weeks on issues such as conservation by applauding Howard’s initiative and by agreeing to increase the funds by the same amount to target those species threatened in Australia.
Grog, is that a crush for Lenore that I detect?
Is it just me, or is the tone and nature of this forum going down hill?
i was a bit distracted this morning but did Paul Kelly actually give a nod of approval to Rudd in his intro piece for the “Insiders”?
Isabella,
Dana Vale was promoted – for a short time only – and she clearly isn’t talented, in fact she’s a knob.
The Liberal Party is beholden to its various factions, most notably the far-right ratbag Christian faction.
I love that our national broadcaster stops for two minutes on this day of remembrance. and the last post to end it. lest we forget.
No, I think this article by a cadet called Sharri Markson – who has in the past used fraud and misrepresentation to get access to her subjects who lay injured in hospital see http://www.theage.com.au/news/creative–media/media-soiled-in-london-terror-trickery/2005/07/17/1121538866727.html
- takes the cake for the sleaziest peace of the year.
Sharri’s piece in the Sunday Telecrap about Mark Latham is vomit inducing. Sharri specialises in invading people’s privacy, going through garbage bins and and hanging around people’s homes with binoculars.
Among other discoveries she makes is that Mark Latham paid $540,000 for what he calls an exclusive mansion with wraparound windows.
She also noticed from a distance through electric gates that he wore a towel in Wests Tigers colours on the way to his own swimming pool.
“The long drive is guarded by iron gates, an electric fence and an intercom to keep out unwanted visitors,” she tells us breathlessly in her scoop.
No wonder, with vermin like her hanging around the place. If it were me I would also have a shottie handy.
Check it out shootin’ viewers:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22737893-5006009,00.html
I’ve nutted the Piers Wackerman thing, Rupert like his Journos to write to about year 10 level, you know, lack of logic, I recon, I heard down at the corner, stuff, . So he gets people who naturally reflect this.
Clearly we are getting bored, so a little story.
Two millionaire Liberal voters are in the backroom of the Melbourne club, one turns to the other one and says, Charles old chap, when through all the struggle of business did you realise that you had turned the corner and made it?
To which Charles repied, “Well James old chum, its was during vacation from the old Grammer school, Daddy took me to the factory and said, Charles my boy, one day this will be all yours!
Re the Flemington Vox Pop on Insiders, Red Wombat at post 168 says: “Maybe they should have spoken to horse trainers from NSW..”
I reckon they should have spoken to the horses.
Any answers obtained would sure as hell have made more sense than what fell from the horses’ a*ses they did interview.
Unusually for me, can I try to introduce a pseph-related topic? We hear a lot about swings for parties. We also a lot about individual candidates merits. I was under the impression that a sitting member who was well-liked and worked hard in their electorate could only hold out 3% maximum against a swing. This would give Turnbull, Pyne etc a lot of problems. Do the candidates really matter that much?
Returning to a topic of yesterday for a moment about Labor’s seemingly long-delayed attack (and defence-to-Libs’-attack) advertising onslaught.
I’ve seen a few reports now that Labor has cracked up the warchest and is now spending up big, but in specific seats (eg Cowan, as per AFR report; and Eden-Monaro, as per somebody’s observation here yesterday).
Do other people have similar observations from their seats? Could it be that Labor’s TVCs are highly localised and targeted? Or (since I do not have a telly) has Labor now begun its blitz across Sydney and Melbourne metro.
Also nice to see the ACTU has apparently begun a blitz of its own.
OK, For Balance,
Two socialist, Bert and Harold.
Bert, “Harold, if you had two houses what would you do?
H, “Bert, I’d keep one and give the other to the poor”
B, “What if you had two cars?
H, “keep one and give one to the Poor!”
B, “Two chooks?”
H, “I’d keep both!”
B, “Why”
H, “I’ve got two chooks”
who’s NRM research? I just got polled.
Nationalist Rights Movement, a front for the Liberal Party? [joke]
That’s a real knee slapper FtP
Usual questions, but before they asked for voting intention they asked heading in the right direction.
Thank you ruawake #169.
That was GOLD. I didn’t know Piers was an ex cocaine addict. Latham may not have been loved but he knew how to ‘thrust’ a knife!
Podcast of today’s Insiders: http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200711/r199061_760095.mp3
What was so delicious about Leonore Taylor skewering Piers’ bloated hyperbole this morning was the quiet, calm wryness she employed. With very few words, she politely demonstrated that he’s an insufferable and hypocritical bore.
Love your work, Leonore!
Roy Morgan?
yeah, it could be actually… N (dont’ know) Roy Morgan… NRM.
Sounds like Lib party internal polling to me. Morgan does f2f at weekends, not phone.
I see I got quoted by Samantha Maiden…. not sure whether to feel honoured or scared!
ruawake @ 169
Thanks for the Latham Hansard reference – a great read.
They had a really dodgy interest rate question, “do you agree or disagree that in uncertain times, with financial instability, that it is to risky for labor to manage interest rates into the future?”, or something similiar to that anyway.
RE insiders
I think it is good that they have the right-wing cheer squad on Insider’s panel. These guys always make fools of themselves on national TV and thus they do their cause no good at all. As long as we have likes of Lenore and Barry to expose them for what they are, I have no problem with the ‘balance’ approach.
Blackbird – it sounds more like internal polling to me.
Interesting point about WorkChoices and the 2004 election.
Yesterday, someone showed me a Courier Mail article outlining all the key Coalition policies released during the 2004 election campaign. It was sort of a ‘wrap up for the last week’ sort of thing.
Any mention of the policies vis a vis Workchoices, I hear you ask?
No. None. Zip. Nada. Nil. Nothing. It is totally silent.
66 Diogenes
Thanks for pointing out the editorial in Sunday Mail. I never read SM- but this was brilliant and spot-on!
Janette loves the odd execution
For crimes that deserve retribution.
When she’s forced to retreat
From Kirribilli post-defeat
They’ll find a dead rodent: electrocution.
I suspect that it is far more likely in general to be polled by an internal party pollster than it is by a public pollster. Internal party polls run everyday from both sides in marginal seats.
Meet The Press, Channel Ten, 12 August 2007
legacy.ten.com.au/library/documents/MTP1208.doc
Oh. My. God.
I am still wiping the tears from my cheeks after watching that Oranguatang clip posted earlier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ev6zrVV_UQ). It was high camp of the highest order.
It was meant to show him as warm and compassionate but the overall impression was of a slightly conflicted sex offender! Rodent could barely move he was so uncomfortable. That tragically forced grin, the too-large, too-formal suit, and the awkward, minder-induced body contact. Disingenuous much???What a cold, hard, WASPy puritan he is.
But best of all was the cheesy, mawkish, overcooked, dated Family Ties/Diff’rent Strokes narrative that the entire episode was written around. For make no mistake, this whole thing was a confected, scripted, campaign set piece that was directed like a piece of cinema. Howard making a special one-on-one visit to Little Timmy with a Terrible Illness, who has one single wish to create a better world…….for orangutans. Convenes special Cabinet Meeting to grant Timmy’s one wish. Gives him a hug (cue live studio audience going “ooohhhhhhhh”). High fives the neighbourhood children. Voiceover mentions that Timmy is Terribly Ill but has a Bright Future Ahead of Him. Just Like The Orangutans.
219 Betamax No the ALP has not started its advertising blitz. I have had the cricket on all morning. Not one political ad in Melbourne. What’s wrong with them don’t they want to win? I will be having a lot to say tomorrow.
I can just imagine the instructions to Howard.
‘now sir, when you go inside, dont shake hands with the boy – give him a big hug’……….
It’s all too funny.
On the Diff’rent Strokes, theme Betamax, I wonder if Costello upon hearing Howard’s orangutang proposal said: “Wachoo talkin’ about Howard?”
I taped the Sunday program while watching Insiders and have just played the tape. There is an absolutely sensational segment on land use featuring Peter Andrews and the land reclamation movement he describes in his book “Back from the Brink”. There has been no interest from ANY politician in what he and his supporters are doing – but active support from Gerry Harvey and many other pastoralists. I don’t know if this is availble on ninemsn but it is too relevant to the next agricultural and water policy to ignore.
Im on the Sunshine coast this weekend havn’t seen that many ALP ads here at all. Same when im home in Flynn. I think ALP have given up on Flynn + hinkler and know they are a no chance in Fisher and fairfax.
I wonder if the idea came from an aboriginal child in Redfern would Howard have turned up?
Rupert said he would not be backing either side this election. Hate to see it when was being partisan.
BrissyRod
Yeah. Makes my blood boil … string of expletive deleteds ….
BTW: Yesterday’s hard-copy version of The Australian carries a pic on Page 7 that is really scarey … I almost puked.
Maccatas. I heard about Peter Andrews a couple of years back. Truly unique man doing some amazing things. I cant believe Labor haven’t grabbed him. I say Labor because as far as I know, the mainstream farming community don’t really buy into his “new age” theories… so the Nats, and therefore the Libs, wouldn’t touch him.
#233 – yeah in that case it definitely sounds internal polling which will be leaked at some stage once the push polling has given the desired results.
In the shadows of an election the Libs announce…..re Peter Andrews
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Govt-vows-cash-to-make-farming-resilient/2007/11/10/1194329553622.html
Rattus Rattus maintains that ‘Anyone that knows me knows that I am strong on Industrial Relations reform’ I also distinctly remember that going into the Keating/Hewson election, the Rat was on 7:30 Report (or whatever), I think it was either the night before the election, or the media blackout if that was in place then. It was definitely the last question put to him, and it ws on Industrial Relations, the Rat quite glibly said – ‘of course I’ll be persuing Industrial Relations etc etc…’ That was certainly the first I’d heard of IR in that campaign. That was the moment I decided that I would never ever vote Liberal. So you see he has a history on IR and how he thinks it should be run – it’s true we do know what he’s like and what he represents.
Betamax @ 242
Michael Gwanada wrote yesterday of Howard’s recent discovery of the man hug (Crosby-Textor are clearly getting physical). I must say there’s a lovely symmetry in that clip (and story), as Howard himself appears to resemble an orangutan. I was half expecting him, at the end of the opening scene in front of those bushes, to sort of lope off and scratch his armpits and let out a couple of squeals.
There is a piece about Therese Rein in the Brisbane Courier Mail today – she is totally different to Hyacinth. Said she had respect for the way Janette Howard had raised her 3 children in the glare of a pollie’s life. Not one nasty word that I could see. How different life would be under Kevin & Therese setting an example of decency – not flawless, but decent. I am still to hear Kevin make one personal derogatory remark about Howard and yet he could have enough ammunition to fill ‘the MCG’ (as Kev said yesterday re Serfchoices paperwork).
Wonder exactly what else Hyacinth says – I notice she is trying to look a lot younger in her dressing lately. Perhaps she thinks it will counteract her older looking husband.
Whenever they do that first pan across the panelists on Insiders, my heart sinks when I see Piers or Gerarde. It’s not because I disagree with their politics (although I do); it’s that when I see either of these two I know that it is going to be a dull show. They will just parrot the latest Liberal Party line. I find it makes for dreary television, even if it is relieved by a bit of baiting from the others.
I’m always delighted when I see Lenore, Matt Price, and (I know this sounds crazy) Andrew Bolt or Glen Milne. They will tell it as they see it. I may not see it their way, but what they say is usually interesting. And it helps that they are quick witted and articulate. When any of them are on, it’s usually good.
The other regulars are worthy but not as exciting. George usually has good stuff to say, but he doesn’t have the rapier wit of (for example) Lenore.
Nevertheless, I reckon it’s the best hour of television all week. Even when it’s bad it’s still pretty good.
Chris B, I doubt that too many people are interested in the cricket, so the political parties will save their ads for when they have the most reach; that’s at prime-time.
red wombat. that surprises me, but welcome recognition.
Observer #253
Afraid to say, I was in a political torpor until after the 2004 election. I tended to vote Liberal, out of habit and ignorance I suppose.
But when WorkChoices came with a thud from out of the blue, I woke up to the Liberals, and, like you, will not vote for them again.
My regret is for the votes that in my ignorance and apathy I gave them in the past.
I predict the Labor advertising campaign will go from close to zero now to full bore immediately after the Labor campaign launch on Wednesday.
The focus will be: Howard retirement; PM Costello taking WorkChoices to new levels; and the very effective “Australians have never had it so good” quote from Howard.
That trio of themes will get hammered relentlessly for nine days straight – to very good effect.
Middleman – 250 – It’s Peter ANDREN
Grog #204
During the whole controversial Gunns pulp mill decision Howard called the shots and interfered in the the process to an extent that several conditions were removed to Turnbull’s dismay.
This was a double edged sword that cut into the topic of the thread yesterday and do I really need to elaborate on the tactic employed by Howard concerning this?
Howard is so hell bent on power that he would destroy the career of one of his own because he perceives a threat.
There might be some sanity in Labor’s…how would you say….lame advertising campaign, due to the fact that there might just be a policy shift next Wednesday to break away from the copy cat capers… so far.
I have my suspicions on what this will be and I will be disappointed if this does not come to pass, as the window of opportunity will close and our national progress will remain stunted on these tax issues.
So the reality is, Wednesday will be important for our future direction.
Interest rates should also be amongst the themes.
Hopefully letters from banks saying your repayments are up $40 a month or whatever, should arrive in letterboxes in the last week of the campaign.
Importantly, it’s not that voters think Rudd would keep rates lower, it’s that rates would probably be the same no matter who was in, so why not punish Howard for his deliberately misleading promise?
alex. Andren, was the independent member for Calare (died last week). Peter Andrews and Peter Andren are different people.
Middleman – I know we are sceptical of the “vision thing” but by god I’d like to see some sign that Rudd was aware of the really big issues of climate change and war with Iran!
There have been surprisingly few “headline” announcements during the election campaign from either side.
Very little that really gets people talking.
Anyone care to predict whether Labor or the Libs will announce something really big at their launches this week?
I wonder what the Libs will go for tomorrow. It needs to create a splash, cause they are getting pretty desperate. Will they try to do something big on education so they can accuse Labor of ‘me-too’? Or will they announce marginal-seat-voter tax offset part F?
The spectre of nukers dotted at dozens of yet-to-be revealed positions on the continent should also be a theme. Blast the Liberals’ re-election chances to oblivion.
Maccatas. I agree. I’m wondering if they feel they campaign on what people in the burbs understand… solar heating, water tanks etc. and then get into the real stuff after the election.
Here is a smart but desperate tactic the Coalition could try:
Announce it is withdrawing a significant component – say half – of its $34 billion tax cuts due to the fast-changing global economic environment.
This would feed into the Coalition’s argument about difficult, demanding times ahead.
It would also place Labor in an almost impossible position. It would be a bridge too far to try to copy the Coalition reversal but it would seem irresponsible not to do so.
There would be huge political risks for the Coalition in doing this, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
Read this morning that Howard is likely to announce a paid maternity allowance this week. A trifling small number of weeks (12) compared to what other, even lesser developed countries provide. Aimed at wooing back women in the low-to-middle income ranges. Those he is shafting with WorkChoices, no doubt.
Just heard Patrice Newell (spelling?) of Climate Change Coalition on ABC’s National Interest. Um, er, sadly, she came across as a tad, er, loopy …
Saw Howard’s monkey business epic last night. How crass. Seems lib campaign directors have decided that Howard has to go …
The guy is a GRUB!
Mr Howard took the unusual step of referring to the election campaign during his official address to the ceremony at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra.
Mr Howard said the fact that Trooper David Pearce and Sergeant Matthew Locke had died during the election campaign – a celebration of democracy – was a reminder of what Australians were fighting for.
“That both of these deaths should have occurred at a time of our election campaign, that celebrates in a sense the great democracy – not only here but around the world – that they and others who have fallen in battle have died for, has reminded us in a real way of the nature of sacrifice in war,” Mr Howard said.
Hugh Mackay says he perceives a strong resurgence of idealim among the baby boomers. Now they are financially secure and have the leisure to ponder wider issuesthey are`rediscovering the things which motivated them in their youth. I see very strong support for the Greens and think they are in a very strongly influential position now.
red wombat .. I’m no fan of Howard but you can’t really take exception to that can you? He is simply making the motherhood statement that Oz troops are fighting for freedom and democracy, and that by coincidence recent deaths came during the election campaign. That is not partisan so far as I can tell especially when you consider that there is bi-partisan support for the presence in Afghanistan.
Maccatas. It’s be a while coming!
red wombat – even the dead have a role to keep Howard in Government.
Have a listen to abc national now 1.17pm
Middleman — oops, your brief description fitted Andren too. I know who you mean. Unfortunately, no mainstram political party will sign up and push somebody who looks a bit ‘new agey’ or eccentric.
red Wombat thats just lame. The PM was merely making a statement.
alex trying googling peter andrews natural sequence. he’s pretty amazing. scientists are currently trying to work out why he is so successful.
Perspective needs leisure – don’t write off older voters – a pitch to experience seems long overdue.
I nearly studied as a postgrad with Martin Green
(unfortunately Howard cut his budget and there literally, physically , no space)
I imagine that the Labor advertising will start in time to a) deflect interest away from the Liberal launch and b) Put the Liberals on the backfoot for the last part of the campaign. I would say some will start just after the Libs launch, but the bulk will start tomorrow week.
i’m off. adious!
Yes exactly, and although he deserves to lose his seat for many other reasons, I find it quite poetic that he’s going to lose power over one of his core ideologies, which he’s pursued in the vain belief that it was the best thing that could be done.
I think the public displays of forgetfulness (Mr Speaker), stress (the debate twitch) and twisting in the wind (his “sorry” explanation) show just how much he has regretted implementing his idea of IR reform. He’s lost heaps of ground as a result and is now spinning his wheels in a vain attempt to make up the lost ground.
In particular, his apology explanation might signal the end for a singnificant proportion of his core constituency. The Howard battlers – to whom he gave the first home buyer’s grant and supposedly also gave them low interest rates – would have reacted badly to those words I am sure. First he apparently apologised for the pain caused by the rate raise. This was actually a good move. Might have swayed some of those already struggling with mortgage payments. Then the next day, he’s suddenly not sorry? I know that he was trying to say that he didn’t CAUSE it, but most would have seen this as a retraction of the previous day’s apology and evidence that he just doesn’t care.
Rudd very smartly used the “will say anything and do anything to stay in power” line to exploit the moment. I believe that will cut through as well.
Ironic, too, that it was Dennis Shanahan who asked the question that provoked that response. He must have had several nights of interrupted sleep as a result.
When we look back at this campaign, I think this moment, above all, will define the campaign, and the reasons for the loss. Yes, Work Choices provided the platform for an election defeat. But Howard’s “sorry” statement all but sealed it.
Why would they interview Christine Milne about the Andrews article, maybe they thought that it would be a chance to have a crack at her? No q’s to the ALP, She showed that she is not going to bite on that rubbish, quick flick down to fine leg and then a quick single about broader issues such as Global Warming.
The reason why the broader farming community do not like the Andrews type stuff is two-fold.
Firstly they have to question whether doing the same things again and again is best and Secondly they have been lied to for so long by their ‘Leaders in the NFF and the Country/national party that Global Warming is not real, to admit it now would be hard.
This is the problem with the ‘Bolt’,'Wackerman’ view of the world. If you base your decision making around how you would like to see the world, rather than the best evidence based decision making then when there is need for change you get bad outcomes. The fact that Mark Vaile is still going on about “well there is still doubt about human influence on Global Warming” is a full blown disgrace. The people who he is causing the most harm are his supporters.
All the talk about the newspapers reminds me of that Russian joke, the Russian text of which I can’t find, but its about Pravda (the truth) and Izvestia (the news), and the joke goes “there’s no news in the Truth, and there’s no truth in the News”.
That thought goes through my head every time I see a pile of newspapers
CL de Footscray @ 174:
Re “Julie Bishop has probably been the wroist education minister in at least a decade”
I would have to disagree, without meaning to suggest she is competent. Admiral Nelson was by far worse – gutting the higher education sector, kicking off processes to micromanage universities (RQF, HEWRRS, etc.), and politicising the research funding process (personally revoking the ARC’s recommendation to fund a number of grants).
red wombat – I agree with you. Howard uses the Military to further his own devices at every opportunity. There was no need to mention the election in that speech. He just lost a few more votes from the ADF.
Rx @259
Welcome aboard! It’s a sound ship. Now, swab the deck, midshipman … then pump the bilge … we want spick and span … crowds are gathering on the dock and on the highways and byways … ready to board …
When’s the next poll?
Here’s an open challenge, Name 3 positive issues that you would run if you were steering the libs shipwreck?
John Howard IS going to retire,
Peter Costello won’t be PM until WELL into the next term
Alexander Downer Won’t be PM at All.
I’m struggling
@291
Their best bet is for Howard to renege once more and say that the economy is still to precarious for me to retire and I ahve to stay on for a full term.
Then 2 years in he can leave anyway on a high and let the liobs fight it out.
heres a tip for the Libs dump Downer. Let Costello do it as he sees fit.
#289
“Howard uses the Military to further his own devices at every opportunity.”
So true. I will never forget the “scared cowardly look” on his face when he was bolting out the back of the plane in iraq when it had to return to the airfield due to a fault. The yanks have their “Chucklenut in Chief” and we have “Coward in Chief”
Inner Westie… you are so right JWH *definitely* has a touch of the orangutan about him himself. To be safe, they should have stayed away from simians alltogether.
I think it’s the quivering, slightly overextended bottom lip? Or is it the stunted growth coupled with proportionally overlong arms?
Or that other time when he was soooo courageous down at Sale when he was addressing the locals about his new gun control laws and he was wearing a flak jacket under his clothes. Yep “Coward in Chief”!
interesting point betamax. I have often wondered about the chimpanzee traits highly evident in both Bush and Howard. Now we all have a little ape in us but these two have it in ‘bucketloads’. I wouldn’t go so far as to point to a definite link between conservatism and simian attributes, but you never know.
It is worrying to hear the degree of bias in which Uncle Rupert is indulging. Now I, like every other thinking person, can remember for future reference that Rupert Murdoch is a liar. He may pretend impartiality, but every morning his memos go out, every morning his editros receive their marching orders, and every morning every paper, TV station and online news-dispenser parrots the Conservative lines which Murdoch feeds them.
As of this election campaign, no News Ltd. paper is worth wrapping your fish and chips in. I hope that Labor get in in a landslide, and whack those bastards good.
Basil re #177
Ryan elected an ALP member in a bye-election after John Moore resigned but subsequently went back to Liberal with Michael Johnson. However Johnson is bleeding badly from Howard’s idea of putting the Ipswich Road bypass through the Ryan electorate. It won’t let them hold onto Blair and could well cost them Ryan.
I think Ryan has more than its fair share of small l Liberals and would be prepared to punt for Rudd over Howard. The odds look good enough that I threw a few bucks into the ring for a win by the ALP.
I don’t know if this has been mentioned earlier but I was surprised at the composition of the panel on “Your Shout” on today’s Insiders. I’ve never seen it so blatantly one-sided and uninteresting (not to mention doing horserace metaphors to death). Usually they manage to get people on who have a range of insightful views, but today’s lot sounded like they been trotted out of a Murdoch stable (sorry).
Betamax @ 295
Perhaps Howard had other motives when pledging $200m for the protection of Indonesian rainforests (among others) care of the Global Initiative on Forests and Climate? Securing his new neighbourhood? This is Kirribilligate mark II!
Yeah – Considering appearances, I reckon Bush is simian sp. monkey, Howard is simian, sp. chimpanzee.
Flash (and others),
Not sure that the Howard line about Australia never having it so good is such a winner for Labor (even though he was a fool to say it, that’s for sure).
I was standing in the street a couple of months ago with a bunch of people who (to a person) have minimal interest in politics (just the sort of people who’ll be starting to ponder their vote about now). And the Labor truck which has the Howard quote on the side drove past.
All these people:
(a) thought the statement was basically true, and
(b) thought the vehicle was from the Liberals!
If Labor runs this Howard quote ad nauseam, expect the Libs to counter with “name a year when people (on average) have had it better”. Which is a question Labor would want to think carefully about, before answering. (For example, 2006 would be a very bad answer for Labor to give, and so – for different reasons – would 1995).
There’s quite a bit of “feel bad” sentiment about the economy at the moment, notwithstanding a decade and a half of growth, and very low unemployment. It’s in Labor’s electoral interests to keep that negative sentiment as vague and ill-defined as possible. Just keep on the interest rate topic.
Yep, It’s Time 298, me too, I think it is one of those seats that is right for plucking.
Re ‘Howard uses the Military to further his own devices at every opportunity’, I find it obscene that both Bush and Howard, who did everything in their power to avoid military service are the ones who are so keen to sound the bugles to send our boys off to war.
I think Minchin might regret this.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007workplace/we-had-mandate/2007/11/11/1194724811712.html
He’s claiming that the said they were going to address IR – and so they had a mandate for Workchoices!!!!
Well they’ve said as much about their future plans for IR this election as last, so will they be updating Workchoices?
Ptobius @ 288,
How can you be so unkind about Nelson? Have you forgotten the flagpoles?
Amused @ 256,
I know exactly what you mean about that first pan across the Insiders set, but it’s OK if Piers is counterbalanced with David Marr. Those two have had fireworks in the past, although they were quite cordial today (I think they must have sedated David). But then David didn’t have to do much as Lenore just sliced through the Liberal mouthpiece on the extreme right (of the set). I enjoy Bolt’s appearances too — I regard him as the thinking person’s Piers Ackerman. The person I really groan at seeing (apart from Gerard) is Brian Toohey – nice man, but not a good TV performer.
I don’t know if this has been mentioned earlier but I was surprised at the composition of the panel on “Your Shout” on today’s Insiders. I’ve never seen it so blatantly one-sided and uninteresting (not to mention doing horserace metaphors to death). Usually they manage to get people on who have a range of insightful views, but today’s lot sounded like they been trotted out of a Murdoch stable (sorry).
257 Lord D Hey? Then why do all the advertising companies waste their money?
Oh by the way I just saw my first union anti Work Choices advertisement. It was a good one.
Ptobias @ 288 – fair enough. How about ‘the second worst, after Nelson, who was the worst in a generation …’
Damning, as they say, with faint praise
Just saw a guy waving the aussie flag wearing a Kevin 07 T-Shirt on the cricket.
We just got our first wicket for the day! Someone in the crowd has a Kevin 07 t-shirt on. Waving the Aussie flag. The camera was right on him. Yeh!
CL, Ptobias, I think you’re being very unfair to Kemp and Vanstone.
Pancho, the competetion amongst that lot is fairly fierce.
I wonder if we could nominate the MOST incompetent Minister in the Howard Government? That would be a very fiercely contested competition.
It’s a toughie, but I think I’d go for Kevin the A at this stage. Managed to f#@k up two portfolios consecutively. But then, the relative temporal proximity of his incompetence may give it a resonance it doesn’t deserve.
#308 #309 Proves that at least two people watch the cricket.
Well said Charles, Glen is doing the ALP a big favour
Kevin Andrews wins by a country mile through a diabolical combination of utter ineptitude, a liking for the dog whistle, a whiny voice and generally insipid appearance.
Latest update on the U.S. election.
http://www.electoral-vote.com
Chris B
I wonder how many other closet cricket tragics are lurking.
eeewwww – Galaxy has done a poll and their conclusion is that twice as manyre people want to see Rudd than Howard in the nude.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22739483-2,00.html
Galaxy has done this poll for Zoo mag. I can think of nothing vomit inducing than to see ANY pollie in the nude……just the thought. God ..I’ve..got..to…get..that..thought…out…of…my…head.
Have any of you seen Leonore on insiders with the Toad when David is not there .She is not nearly as good .She and David work as a team against the Toad .David keeps the toad pacified and controlled so Leonore can have the space to clearly say what needs to be said.When David is not there the toad just talks over her and dismisses any thing she says and this upsets her equilibrium.
Evan 93
I think from memeory that David Marr had already said that the voters have been locked in for sometime and His statement to Numbnuts was purely taking the piss out of him. He rose to it like a skunk to hot S#@t.
Every time the tub of lard ventured from his box Lenore politely told him to get back in. He almost back pedalled up his own a$#e when Lenore picked him up on the “those women in the adds” bit.
He would have the most comical satirical blog in the hemisphere if he dared to open it up to all comers not just those that lick his boots.
Its a bummer when you want to vent on him and he will not publish.
Janette is now a politician and a fair game.
Tag-team assault by Howards – PRIME Minister John Howard and his wife, Janette, have launched a double-barrelled assault on Kevin Rudd, branding the Opposition Leader hopeless on economics, lacking strong convictions, and not as good a campaigner as Bob Hawke. “One thing we know is that he doesn’t know anything about economics,” said Mrs Howard, in an interview at Kirribilli House on Friday, alongside her husband of 37 years.
SMH – http://www.smh.com.au/news/federal-election-2007-news/tagteam-assault-by-howards/2007/11/10/1194329563863.html
the “save the orangutans” video is appalling, even by the rodent’s low standards…
once again, it’s really all about John. just listen to what the rodent is actually droning on about in the voice over: “moving forward in adversity”, “inspirational Australians” ie, as he sees it, him and Janette – who is lurking throughout the whole excrutiating 90 seconds…
they’re obviously both in complete denial, and I would hate to be the one charged with getting the keys to Kirribilli from Janette Sat week – maybe she’ll try to change the locks
I’d love to see Cornes and Stott Despoja nude…
Anyway! Let’s have a look at Howard’s crazy announcements this week.
1 – 500,000 for the Orangutangs.
2 – Divorce and infertility to rise under Labor
3 – Sorry no longer amounts to an apology.
Actually, maybe I will vote LNP after all…
@ 317
What, aj, you’re telling me you wouldn’t cop an eyeful of Ron Boswell in the buff? C’mon, we’re only human …
Ptobius @ 288,
How can you be so unkind about Nelson? Have you forgotten the flagpoles?
Amused @ 256,
I know exactly what you mean about that first pan across the Insiders set, but it’s OK if Piers is counterbalanced with David Marr. Those two have had fireworks in the past, although they were quite cordial today (I think they must have sedated David). But then David didn’t have to do much as Lenore just sliced through the Liberal mouthpiece on the extreme right (of the set). I enjoy Bolt’s appearances too — I regard him as the thinking person’s Piers Ackerman. The person I really groan at seeing (apart from Gerard) is Brian Toohey – nice man, but not a good TV performer.
Awesome. Looks like ratty has a lock on the gay vote.
According to the poll, “Mr Howard may find some solace in the gay vote – 18 per cent of men want to see the PM in the buff, compared to only 14 per cent for Mr Rudd.”
We have already seen Howard in the buff. The Emperor has no clothes.
If mark Lathem was still in politics
I think he would have made the ideal choice for the Speaker of the House
if Labor gets in
He wouldnt take crap off any of the Coalition members, he would put them in their place,
Anyone agree?
aAsa a rule, I avid the Murdoch press. I’m in Sydney so I read the SMH on the train in the morning and glance at the Oz at the coffee shop. I certainly wouldn’t pay for it. I think it’s a travesty that people in some other capital cities don’t have the same options.
There is just so much to choose from when searching for the worst MP in government. An embarrassment of riches really. For mine, Alexander Downer is head & shoulders above the rest. With him around who needs an opposition. Wisely, he seems to have been kept away from the spotlight thus far.
The T. Abbott is aferensis neanderthal robustus minus gracile, a peculiar off-shoot from the common links to what we now consider “human”. To date, only one specimen has been discovered. The remains, discovered by a ploughman during his lunch break, were perfectly preserved in a peat bog. Several decades went by and then a team of serious archaeological types from Oxford went for a squizz. They were immediately struck by the overly large size of the ear units. This led to speculation that the remains represented an early form of flight evolution. That is, a dino trying to get off the ground. This was ruled out, however, when further examination revealed nothing much happening between the ears. The remains are now kept in a safe place, under controlled conditions, awaiting further study.
When’s the next poll?
Inner Westie @ 318.
Boswell in the nude is definately a bad moon on the rise.
Oh my god Westie, thanks for that, now not only have I’ve got Ron Bowell in their but Wilson Tuckey. Loose skin…hanging…and all that.
For those of you who think Marr is a hack, have a read of these:
1. Patrick White: A Life (the definitive White biography)
2. Dark Victory (with Marian Wilkinson, a scrupulously researched account of Howard’s Tampa-led campaign in 2001)
3. His Master’s Voice: The Corruption of Public Debate under Howard (an essay about the deterioration in the quality of public debate in this country under Howard)
What has Ackerman written to compare with these? I accept that Marr is anti-Howard (that’s pretty obvious), but I can’t see how anyone could reasonably put him on an equal intellectual footing with a birdbrain like Ackerman.
Why is everyone so touching about poor old Glen, everyone knows Julia is very a very ambitous woman and has worked under some of the best men in town
On Milne in the Sunday Mail this morning, the story was different compared to the dribble he wrote in the terror and sun. We do seem to have a watered down version of the terror, for which I’m grateful. After reading the terror it sometimes reminds me of the people mag my husband used to read…just without the nudie’s. (oh shite, there they are the nudie pollies in my mind again..get out….think election night, howard losing speech…better)
On Wackaman, yep he didn’t make any of his own arguments, just the Liberal party rhectoric probably off their web site. It really IS boring to listen to such partisan comments, when the media are crying out for FOI media laws to be rectified. With one hand they want more access to the government and public service, but we the public were awake to the lake of criticism from the media concerning Howard’s govt years ago.
If Lenore had a bit more time I think she would have ripped him a new one, of course she would have done it in her steady,classy and logical way.
darn, 324 I meant ‘there’ not ‘their’
Nude pollies? Scary.
Nude journos? Scarier.
Nude bloggers? Don’t even go there!
We need Larry Pickering to bring back his “Pickering’s Playmates” calendars. Those who are old enough to remember the Pickering calendars will never forget Hawke’s “wedding tackle” featured in the early 80s: it was ENORMOUS, and had a mind of its own – and it was drinking a beer, for memory.
I just spent a few minutes poking around the ALP’s youtube site. They have some good ads there that I haven’t seen on TV at all (in Sydney). I hope Labor have got their strategy right. I am already detecting some serious election fatigue amongst people at my work and David Marr’s comment on Insiders today – that the electorate are just beginning to take notice – doesn’t gel with my experience. People in my workplace, who don’t normally pay attention to politics, were interested when the election was first called but are now simply getting sick and tired of the whole thing. There are a number of people who voted Lib last election but have changed to Labor primarily because of SerfChoices, and they don’t seem to be changing back, which is a relief. However I wonder if Labor had been pumping out a few more of these ads more frequently, and earlier, whether we would see an even more positive result come election day.
Oh well, at least Labor are still streets ahead in the campaigning stakes when compared with the train wreck that is the Howard/Loughnane attempt.
I think Piers Ackerman should stay oin Insiders. Face it, the ABC can get him for a bucket of fried chicken for each appearance. I hope he makes an appearance on 25/11.
Geez I go away for the afternoon and I get back and find the conversation has turned to nude politicians!
269 Flash it would be very desperate of the Libs to ditch their tax plan – especially as the govt they could hardly come out with a “we had no idea 3 weeks ago things were this bad” line.
Also they would have to keep the lower income tax cuts especially as they trumpetted them as encouraging workforce participation. And thus they would end up with something similar to the ALP plan (in the broadterms).
careful Fagin… they’re starkers…
Lib campaign has been poor. I suspect that, had they simply said every day, “Don’t risk Labor”, they’d have done better.
Howard’s “sorry doesn’t mean sorry” moment on Thursday was an absolute shocker in my view.
And his basic problem (too old and a bit out of touch) is not going to go away.
mytym @ 321
There is no way Downer is the worst minister, cleary the Downer Months were some of the finest in our political history.
Maybe the orangutan money is to build an Ackerman enclosure for his retirement>
fiztig, I think the electorate was tuned in for the first week, but has been hitting the snooze button since then. The launches will try and wake them but I have my doubts.
Julie is a tragic. We have no connection with that well known cricket tragic. At least I can bowl.
Thank you, William for this blog. I have enjoyed this site for some time, but as a one finger typist have never previously contributed. However, I felt sorry for previous contributors to this thread who have expressed frustration at having to wait for programs such as ” Insiders ” to start because of daylight saving. The answer for those who can afford the moderate cost – $ 350 here in Perth about 2 years ago as the one-off installation cost with no ongoing fees or charges – is to have installed a small satellite dish receiving the Optus Aurora signal.
This enable me to time-jump around Australia receiving a minimum of 5 ABC TV stations ( WA, QLD,SA,NT, & SE i.e. NSW/VIC ) & 4 SBS stations ( as for ABC but excluding NT ). So, for ” Insiders ” which starts in Perth at 9 am, I have the choice of watching ABC SE at 7am, ABC SA at &.30 am, ABC QLD at 8 am or waiting until 9 am for the standard Perth time viewing. I am really looking forward to election night to start seeing Eastern States broadcasts from 4 pm Perth time.
@322 Derek
slowly wiping away the tears of laughter
New Labor ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgLOccpAd8E
dyno, agreed, the Liberal and National party messages have been all over the place and they and especially Howard, has lost the plot. I agree with someone @ pb who said that Howard seem to be on a different message to Costello and all the rest of the candidates seemed to have wiped any images of the above or policies from their campaign. Instead we are seeing local issues from the back benchers, costello’s good economy/tsunami/wc will bring wages under control, howards don’t be scared of success/we’re in for hard times/wc will improve wages. etc
A quote from this article http://www.smh.com.au/news/federal-election-2007-news/tagteam-assault-by-howards/2007/11/10/1194329563863.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 from our compassionate leader:
“Every shopping centre you go into, someone will bowl up to you and say ‘I was sacked yesterday unfairly, blah blah blah blah blah”
lol ChrisB
Labor should forget about all these crap political ads and just keep repeating an ad of Rattus bowling that cricket ball with a voice at the end saying
“does Australia really need this man”
Middleman, Alex etc, there was a full doco on SBS or ABC a couple of years ago. The guy was a brilliant horse breaker and apparantl he split off with the family . Had to leave the farm. He had done the water thing on his own property. Gerry harvy i think somehow got involved with him to do with his horse buiso and i think he went to work for gerry. He did the water thing on Gerry’s property and it worked. Gerry harvey then got some scientists to look at it. From memory the scientists spouted it to the Govt but the govt scientists then pooh poohed it and it must be resurfacing now.
I believe that what he did was excellent and made sense, the fact that he was holding back the water and slowing the flow.
I remember being very agro about the goverment virtually calling him a snake oil salesman at the time. He was not even trying to sell the idea for cash he was trying to sell the idea.
RE: Nominations for worst MP
Worst! For mine, it has to go to Ruddock. Long-term damage to our legal institutions. It will take years to repair. Downer is a prize goose, but fences can be re-built. With good will and an open heart. The rest are just common garden variety dills. Beneath contempt.
I like it RGee. I note Piers hated it on Insiders this morning (which is a good enough endorsement for me)
Whoever was asking about Insiders online, it’s now up on the video on demand page but not yet on the Insiders page which always seems to lag a bit more.
I agree Derek.
But I would say Reith takes the prize for all-time worst Minister under Howard (though there’s only a cigarette paper between them)
Reports of the Labor party going for Howard with his silly ‘retirement’ promise is pure gold!
Get your cash on Maxine now before her odds shorten considerably this week.
The best is still Sportingbet.com.au and you also get a $100 free bet, so for a minum outlay of $30 you can have Maxine @ $2.75 and a better than even money chance of winning.
Costello gets on board the climate change bus:
“Mr Costello said it was the world’s richest people who had produced most of the greenhouse gas, CO2.
He said policies designed to reverse global warming were about justice because climate change would impact heavily on future generations who had no say in today’s decision-making.
“What are we doing for them?” Mr Costello asked, referring to the next generation of Australians.”
Of course it was TIM Costello… sigh.
If Labor is really streets ahead why are they changing their campaign strategy? If Howard is as unpopular as they say he is why does Labor focus on the Costello Transition so much?
Andrew Bolt has an interesting thread on this here –
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/mother_of_all_smear_campaigns/
#337 What do we think of these ads?
I think the first one was stronger, and I wonder whether comments from real people in the street would be better (I noticed Labor has one of these street grab ads on its site – but I’m not sure if it’s actually been on air).
I am struggling to put myself into a swinging voter’s shoes to determine how it will be received.
re : worst Howard minister
1: Ruddock….the man is a fu*kin sellout to common decency.
2: Andrews….his patent stupidity protects him from tieing with Ruddock.
3: Reith…nightmares persist of this ghoul spitting and drooling his venom.
4: a 20 person tie.
All captained by the Don Bradman of lowest common denominator politics John Winston Howard.
aj Says:
November 11th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
darn, 324 I meant ‘there’ not ‘their’
aj – Thanks for the special mention.
Uncharacteric slip by Nick Minchin. He always seemed one of the Coalition’s best political operators.
But now saying they had a mandate for WorkChoices, he opens a new line of hard questions to answer – like what other cards do they have up their sleeves this time?
Thommo, that is not a change in strategy at all – it’s just a change in emphasis – after all they couldn’t be so stupid as to keep runing the same ads for 6 weeks..
A change in strategy it to starts by saying we’re going to “Go For Growth”, and back this up by saying we shouldn’t be afraid of grwoth, to then say a tsunami is comming, and to then ditch the go for growth slogan while announcing the most important economic decision of the campaign.
343 Grog
Do you think it’s possible that Labor could ultimately alter their tax policy and the coalition might try to follow suit???
Kirribilli Removals (361) – love that nom de plume
I’ve got my free $100 with Sportsbet on Labor at $1.95.
Grog why would they change their emphasis 2 weeks out from the election if what they were doing has put them so far ahead.
Thommo, Labor have stayed so far ahead all year by setting the agenda and not letting their tactics become too predictable. Further, ads are always ramped up in the final two weeks. And a clever tactician starts with a positive campaign and goes negative later, leaving the impression that they are the leaders. The Liberals have been comprehensively outcampaigned.
365 HarryH. As the Fonz would say “Exactamundo!”. Also, as the father of a child with cerebral palsy, I find Howard’s orangutan ad a f@#king disgrace. To use a horrible illness for political gain re-emphasises what a low-life he is. The local children’s hospital is much the same. If it put half the effort into looking after disabled children that it puts into using them for publicity purposes they would get much better care.
Re 330,
Damien J Says:
Indeed and in one respect, Sydney’s options are better than Melbourne’s. In Sydney, if you are at the trainstop where you pick up all of the ferries (they have like 6 docks there), the news agent {in front of pier/dock 4 I think?}carries the The Age. You can’t get the SMH in Melbourne, no one would buy it
….. Damien, don’t read the SMH, it is fast becoming too conservative and more and more like the Daily Telegraph. Go down to the wharf and buy the Age each day 
. I don’t buy any papers at all, read them all online, The Age is my homepage and I live in the Liverpool area.
The Age wouldn’t be there unless there was a call for it and to the best of my knowledge, that is the only place in Sydney where you can get The Age too.
Neither party can afford to alter their approach to tax, given they have each so stridently defended their position(s?). Any change now would give the other side a field day, trawling through their previous messages in defence and being able to create great sound grabs.
Pancho, Labor have copied the governments agenda all year with its constant me-toos. The only agenda setting it has done was their broadband announcement and the government trumped that with its broadband policy.
Dennis Shanahans peice this weekend saying that Labors marginal seat polling is not showing as big a swing as the published polls was also very interesting.
A change in emphasis capitilises on strengths and opens a slight wound in the Libs, to ensure it will be gaping come the 24th.
It shows for the first time in 4 elections the ALP are playing like winners.
Re 349,
Chris B Says:
Yes, you called?
369 scaper – them’s high stakes poker…
The ALP could only do it if the Tuesday newspoll shows them widening, otherwise it would look desperate.
But jeez, it certainly would wake up the public!
Apologies to anyone who had to wait all day for comments to get moderated. Thanks to Follow the Preferences @ 5 and Mark @ 131 for pointing out typos, they are now corrected.
I need some help!
I am an Aussie living on the East coast of the U.S.A. (I love reading this blog. Thankyou.) But I have just worked out that the polls will close at 2:00 a.m. on Saturday morning our time here (6:00pm your time). Can anyone tell me how I can get live coverage over here? I can get ABC Newsradio through live streaming on my computer. Are they running live coverage on Election night? All suggestions welcome.
“Labor have copied the governments agenda all year with its constant me-toos”
Not on issues that people are paying attention to, and are central to politics at the moment, like IR, global warming and health. It rather has found a way to counter divisive and small-minded wedging. And it is working.
John Winston Howard – ‘If I’m elected no Oranguatang will live in poverty by 2008.’
Fagin
I remember those Pickerings! The image of Hawkie’s tackle will haunt me to me grave. Awesome! (To use a youngism) Daring in its day, though. These days, the satire has moved to the online stuff, such as youtube et el. Maye the kiddies are not brain dead.
Gaffhook – 356 I have seen that TV doco as well as another on Peter Andrews and his re-generation technique. I found it interesting but it seemed to be a micro ecology system which may not be suitable all over the country. Unfortunately, governments are only interested in BIG ideas that affect a wide community with lots of potential votes.
381,
I can certainly appreciate your situation. I am US by birth, married to an Aussie and we lived in the US through 96/98/01 and 04 elections. This will be the first election for him to have voted on Australian soil instead of a postal vote since 1993. I think if you go to the newsradio website
http://www.abc.net.au/newsradio/
you can ask them that question directly via the “contact us” button up in the righthand corner. They ought to be able to tell you
:).
I know for a fact there is a trump and if they do not play it due to the lead in the polls…then it might just be the “change everything” after the election.
I’m looking forward to Wednesday and if by chance if I hear…costed and costed to it’s bullet proof, I will be chuffed.
scaper, you need to stop talking in riddles. it isn’t the least bit helpful
376
That’s bullsh#t on Labors marginal seat polling i know for a fact it better than poor old Dennis is saying
Wednesday – Labor party launch – ??
385
That’s why we have to go it in hand with corporate Australia then the so called leaders will have no other choice but to follow.
No its not James.
Thommo – Shanahan was caught out full-on lying about the motor industry issue last week. He knows the Libs are f..ked and is resorting to the most outrageous stories such as the marginal seats yarn. Read Possum and get the real story.
#388 Julie
I apoligise and due to the nature of what I’m trying to communicate here, it is best that maybe I desist.
I think I’m with you scaper.
But it’s always nice to have more than one trump in your hand. I hope the ALP does on Wednesday night – and that one of them is a bower.
381 Apprehensive News Radio and ABC 774 should be covering the election, both have streaming.
Well I guess we shall see on election night. There could be alot of red faces here…..
So much for the team!
Only Turnbull, Minchin and Ellison could be described as competent.
My worst:
Andrews, Downer, Ruddock, Nelson, Bishop, Vaile, Cossie, Abbott McGauran, Macfarlane
No wonder they haven’t highlighted them.
392 Thommo Yes it is Thommo. I don’t know which election you and Shanahan are following but its certainly not this one.
Absolutely true Thommo. IF the ALP doesn’t win, the polling, gambling and blogging worlds will be very red faced.
Ah Thommo@397, you sound a bit like Labor folks in the leadup to 96. I’m keeping that message to repost to you on the 25th.
392
NO i know it better
Bloody rain at the Gabba…
397 Thommo I suppose you have to do something to rally the troops. By being in denial at least someone can help give the troops a glimmer of hope.
Thommo
Remember this is POLL Bludger – we have been disecting the entrails of polls for months. There is no evidence that what Shananananhan is saying is true – he does not need evidence.
HAHAHAHAHA….Shanahan said so, so it must be true……..gotta love those 5 knuckle shuffling Libs.
Thommo, in the event of the unmentionable my face will be a deeper shade of purple than mere red – it’ll be something approximating black (which could make getting through customs on my way to Turkmenistan a little awkward (unless, of course, I adopt the ‘Cousins defence’)).
239
Rusted on Says:
Janette loves the odd execution
For crimes that deserve retribution.
When she’s forced to retreat
From Kirribilli post-defeat
They’ll find a dead rodent: electrocution.
electoratecution?
Politicians you’d like to see nude:
Kate Ellis
ABC radio and maybe ABC TV will be streaming.
Open up Poll Bludger & ABC Election results.
if something were to happen to these sites *touchng wood not* then check out the other major networks and major newspapers.
On another matter I see Channel 7 have put together a panel for election night can I take it that they will be fully covering the night.
397 [Well I guess we shall see on election night. There could be alot of red faces here…..]
Even worse a few Blue ones too…
Rumour: Rudd will annnounce something huge at Labor’s campaign launch that will absolutely blow the Rodent out of the water.
Thoughts?
No! HH.
Some interesting gossip!!
Melbourne’s young are swing towards the ALP, while many middle aged voters are leaning towards the Greens then seriously thinking about where to go from there.
BMWofVictoria @ 410:
Yes, Seven have full coverage. Their panel has Beattie and Kennett, which could be interesting, but the fact that it’s hosted by three of their light entertainment morning people (Koch, Doyle and O’Keefe) makes my stomach churn.
Only 10 and SBS aren’t having full coverage on the free TV.
Politicians you’d like to see nude:
Andrew Quha FF
oh hang on….pass me that magnifying glass pls
oh, ok, Bronwyn Bishop.
HH: I think Rudd will release the rest of his education and training packages.
I saw the ALP add this morning along the lines of what Milne alluded to. I think it is a good message. LNP voters are not voting for Ratman, they are voting for Costello. This, I think, is a very powerful message. Costello is deeply unpopular across the electorate. I think hammering this message home will be an effective strategy.
415 @ Ptobias
Thanks, yes Jeff and Beattie will be interesting.
Kochie while he may host a morning breakfast show can be very serious when needed, he is a well regarded business journo well liked in Business circles.
I hate cricket!
Just thought I’d get that out of my system
Kevin has announced a new policy today
This is on livenews.com.au
The Labor leader travelled to a suburban Perth park, filled with children and families enjoying a barbeque, to make the announcement.
Mr Rudd is committing $510 million over three years to cover the cost of an annual check-up for teenagers.
“What we’re concerned about is the charges at present, getting beyond the ability of many working families to pay,” Mr Rudd said.
Under the scheme, families would receive a 150 dollar rebate to cover the cost of a dentist visit.
any polls out tomorrow? Galaxy? ACN?
Dman I hate being an addict. Hurry up the 25th!!! (hear hear says my wife!)
Shanahan is either making it up to keep up morale for his side or more likely is being fed disinformation. It is in Labor’s interests to spread the word that it’s very tight. Beattie, Bracks and Carr and their organisations did this every time before scoring landslide victories.
As for the change in emphasis, it’s very simple. Labor has spent the campaign so far softening up Howard. He has been out thought, out fought and out played. Just look at the 24 hours he wasted arguing semantics over what he meant by sorry. Howard looks twitchy and old. Like many old men, he just can’t do it anymore.
Now Labor has its foot on Howard’s throat, or the stiletto heel if you prefer, they are moving in for the kill.
Rudd has stalked Howard for nearly a year. In less than 2 weeks, he will have his prey, dead, the carcass rotting and full of stench.
Rudd has been clinical and brutal. Woe betide anybody who gets in his way as PM.
The rumor for the Labor launch will probably be on the education revolution and security. he’s done tax, housing, health and the environment. What will be more interesting is what they adapt in response to the Liberal launch on Monday. And by the way. Polies naked? hve we really sunken that low?
I would be expecting something for universities.
I’m surprised Rudd hasn’t announced funding for a stadium in Perth yet
The small-minded media here will rip into him if he announces it after Howard
There’s plenty of bogans and morons here who would easily base their vote on a new stadium to watch footy.
Could Tabitha be Janette Howard?
This is what I predict will be going through the minds of voters on the 24th:
Dental plan! (Lisa needs braces) Dental plan (Lisa needs braces), Dental plan (Lisa needs braces)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/11/2087604.htm
Pollies naked? Do we actually have any pollies who are cute, young, and male? Help me out here…
6-8,000 at the Walk for Climate change in Canberra – lots of young people and a great boost for kerrie Tucker’s campaign for the senate.
Green advertising – “Have your cake and Eat it too” – explaining how you can use your preference in the Reps to get a climate change message across while using your preference to shake up the government.
then vote for Kerrie Tucker in the Senate to get control away from the major parties.
Nicely targeted at a Canberra audience.
mad cow @ 429. I always suspected Pyne trawled this forum
SeanofPerth @ 426
Stadiums can also be used to stage public executions. Something Prime Minister Rudd might find useful when he conducts his inevitable crusades through the public service and Canberra press gallery.
(Note to Steve Price: it was joke mate.)
Didn’t Jodie Moore run for a seat in Queensland……?
Grog @ 360
Yes. Agree. Will you cop Ruddock 1. Reith 2. Consider the damage. (I must confess, I’d forgotten the odious Reith).
Why didn’t Turnbull march? Ok, probably most there were already on the ALP/Greens side, but surely it’d help his Wentworth chances?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/11/2087608.htm
I tend to agree with Spiros. Labor has stalked Howard and the Libs all year and really messed with their minds. Howard’s erratic bahviour last week confirms he is truly rattled (rattus rattled?). I believe that Labor will announce a block buster policy at the campaign ‘launch’. My guess is a reduction in HECS – a sure fire winner for the Gen Ys and their Boomer parents.
Don’t forget the swift and violent Education Revolution, it’s going to be nasty.
I sent an email to Sky about their bias, i got a snide and sarcastic reply saying they are only doing their job
436: that certainly would be consistent with the broader economic/ addressing inflation thrust from the ALP
Fat Mandy was the worst – she was actually sacked well and truly before the election. Just too much of an embarrasment to have lolling around.
Derek, it’s like choosing between constipation and diarrhea.
I’m sorry but non are worst then Andrews.
His performance with Aged Care, then Workchoices then Immigration.
Alex @436 – I agree. Nothing I have seen yet really gets close to an “education revolution”. A reimagining of our Higher Education system would be incredible.
To quote one of my liberal voting friends (who is voting for labor the first time this election), “If Rudd comes up with a killer Education policy, it’ll be a landslide.” We (excluding glen, esj, et al) can all but hope.
Perth needs a 60000 seat rectangular stadium for international sport.The local Bogans already have one, it’s called Subiaco oval and Ben Cousins used to play there.
Rudd could do a lot worse for himself than make a commitment in that regard.
428 Grog. You’ve never bought braces for your kids, have you?
But it’s a good idea from Labor. Get the preventative care happening, saves massive problems done the track. Sensible use of health dollars.
200 wickets for McGill. woo hoo!
No Crispy, but my use a Simpsons quote kinda ignores reality a tad.
Be careful about which quiz you think I’m answering,
Amanda Vanstone
Does anyone have a link to the Shanahan article containing the marginal seat polling quips, or the page number of the Weekend Oz?
ah sorry Grog I missed the literary allusion, silly me…
I have a quote for upper and lower braces pinned on the board in front of me, so I’m a little sensitive. Sigh.
Just saw two Liberal ads and not one ALP ads. What the f*ck is going on?
Crispy, that is still a few years ahead for me. But I feel your pain.
It is so obvious that dental is such a massive neglect from both sides.
I have no idea how to fix it. It’s always going to be expensive; it’s always going to be hard to get enough dentists… but at least the ALP’s plan does help on the preventative side.
Poss I think Thommo was referring to the Shanahan article linked to above by William. John Acquilina restating the standard ALP ‘16 seats is a tall order’ line.
Chris B it ain’t prime time yet – let them waste their money.
But mor eimportatnyl were the Lib ads any good? There’s lots of advertising on TV; doesn’t mean you buy everything.
-450. Chris.
The libs are running 15 sec adds, Labor with 30 seconds meaning the libs get more in.
I think this is a new ad posted today as part of the direct attack on Howard line they are taking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgLOccpAd8E
Ta Crispy – that ol’ horsefluff?
Pfft.
“The economy will win this election for Mister Howard. and then i dare all you leftards to come back here and face up to reality lol.”
Glen, 5.3.07
Sorry Crispy, I couldn’t resist opening one more present…only because the voices on the other side of the fence have been so silent lately. But never mind. I have plenty more in the stocking.
How long is the electronic media blackout? Is it just 24 hours, or longer?
Alex, Gaffhook, Middleman The links to the Peter Andrews story are: http://www.nsfarming.com and
http://www.sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/article_2349.asp
FtP @447
I agree.
or…
“My eyes! The goggles do nothing!”
451
Grog Says:
It is so obvious that dental is such a massive neglect from both sides.
I have no idea how to fix it.
There is no substitute for increased funding, for both immediate services, and training of future dentists. Efficiency drives only go so far, and there is little blood left to wring out of that stone.
Until the government and the general community accept that, it ain’t gonna get better.
Same argument for health services in general.
Doeas anyone know the lineups for election night?
ABC – Penny Wong &
Nine – Kroger &
Seven – ??
Ten – nothing?
Old Bob McMullin usually gets a guernsey somewhere.
Anyone know where Rudd will be? Brisbane?
And now I know why campaign launches don’t happen until week 5.
We pay for the travel!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/11/2087535.htm?section=justin
fron the AEC website.
Under Schedule 2 of the Broadcasting Services Act 1992, which is administered by the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA), election advertising in the electronic media is subject to a ‘blackout’ from midnight on the Wednesday before polling day to the end of polling on the Saturday. This three-day blackout effectively provides a “cooling off” period in the lead up to polling day, during which political parties, candidates and others are no longer able to purchase time on television and radio to broadcast political advertising.
Chris 450 – Saw both lots of ads here in Mel in 10 news – two of each – Libs ads are pathetic and amateurish
Re 444,
Crispy Says:
Re ortho work for kids – a little known fact but it does work and is a part of Medicare. IF your child has a Health Care Card AND is in need of ortho work AND it is serious ortho work and not just plain ortho work, you ARE eligible to get that ortho work completely free through Medicare.
Conditions –
1. the work will take place through the ortho staff at selected public hospitals where they are staffed with pediatric orthodontic clinics. you can NOT go to a private ortho clinic and be reimbursed.
2. child MUST pass an exam to make sure that he/she meets the treatment criteria (if simple ortho problems, they don’t treat; must be what they consider more serious and/or complex).
3. must sit time in the queue and wait, this can be several years. You need to get your child examined around age 8 – 10 at the public hospitals pediatric ortho clinic as then by the time they get off of the waitlist (around 11 – 13), then all of their adult teeth are in. Ortho clinic will NOT start treatment on a child aged younger than this.
4. ONCE actively in the system and NOT in the queue any longer, you can transport from state to state AS long as the receiving state hospital in your new location has both the staff and space to take you in. It is up to the receiving hospital to make this decision, it is a judgement call on their part. Otherwise, you migrate to the private ortho system.
5. IF you move states prior to going off of the queue, you must rejoin the queue at the end in your new state/hospital.
I know all of this because I have a child who has a health care card and is in the queue for ortho treatment at Westmead here in Sydney at the moment.
If you go to a pediatric hospital and they don’t know about this, ask them to check it out. IT IS TRUE. I was at Westmead multiple times over 18 months or so until at one visit an alert dentist flagged this when she noted I had a health care card. MANY physicians and dentists simply DO NOT know about this. You may have to insist and ask them to check it out.
Repeating – IF you have a health care card for your child and he/she is in need of ortho treatment and is in the 7 to 10 age group, you MAYBE eligible for getting it completely free.
Note – ACT is covered for purposes of this program under NSW so your family would be going back and forth to Westmead to take advantage of this program.
Well, Snakeboy, if that is indeed your name, since we’re playing, I too have my cache…
“Cerdic Conan Says:
August 3rd, 2007 at 3:38 pm
…you will see the trend in action on election night! The Man of Steel will come storming home, and the left will be left struggling to come up with some flimsy excuse as how he managed to beat them yet again. Stay tuned for that inventive excuse – it should be absolutely hilarious !
So says Cerdic Conan.”
On a nostalgic note.
#462 – Grog, my guess is Ten will show a rerun of one of the Harry Potter movies. Or maybe a rerun of Guy Sebastian winning Australian Idol…with Paul Buongiorno doing the links.
Just Me 408
Good one.
electoratecution. I like it.
I too hope that if there’s a big announcement it’s about education. None of us want our kids saddled with massive HECS debts.
462 Grog,
over at ozelections site, there is a thread going with all of the specifics …..
Grog @ 462 – here’s some info for you: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22721793-5013948,00.html
Grog, in answer to your question:
ABC: Nick “arrogant prick” Minchin, Julia Gillard, Kerry, Antony Green
Nine: Swanny, Kroger, Oakes, Martin
Seven: Hawkey, Beattie, Shrek Hockey, Mark Riley, Mel & Kochie
Chris: I don’t watch much commerical TV, but I’ve seen ALP ads on Channel 9 after 7PM at night, as well as Rudd’s 5 minute slots on the ABC
And don’t forget Labor ads on the internet
Saw Wayne ‘Rooster’ Swan down at Prahran Market this morning while i was doing the shopping, was so close to yelling at him to ‘go back to Queensland’ but i am not like the rabid left who viciously verbal Coalition MPs and Ministers at every given moment. Still he has some guts to show his face in public when he is more unliked than Deputy Dawg.
Oh and Snakeboy if ‘anything’ will win this election for the Tories it is the economy, so i stand by my comments.
S @ 463:
Minchin in that story says “Now there is this convention about the point at which you can no longer claim travel allowance, but I think Australians understand they want to hear the political messages from both sides of politics and to do that you’ve got to get around the country.”
Someone ought to tell him about TV and the Internet.
ABC for me then.
Crispy…and I think that is almost certainly your name…those quotes are gold. We must enjoy them while they have some cache. Because after Nov 24th, they will be lost in the tide of the here-and-now.
wtf ??
Nine’s plan to include humorous spots from Firth, a founding member of the Chaser team, in its poll night coverage. Nine news and current affairs boss John Westacott said: “(Firth) will give us a bit of comic relief. We’re taking this extremely seriously. It is one of the most interesting elections for many years and we intend to do a first-class job of it.”
Bet Laurie Oakes and Ray Martin