Time for a new thread. For the want of anything better to hang it off, I hereby reprint my piece in Crikey last week on prospects for the Senate. This does not mean discussion on this thread need be relevant to this topic.
Like so much else this year, speculation about the Senate election has been guided by “the narrowing”: that mystical force that would drive swinging voters to the Coalition once the campaign focused minds on economic management. It’s now clear to all but a dwindling band of die-hards that this hasn’t happened and isn’t about to.
It is thus necessary to revise the view that the Coalition will be strong enough in the Senate to make life difficult for an incoming Rudd Government. The Liberals and Nationals instead find themselves in danger of losing a swag of seats, which opens up a dizzying range of possibilities for the Greens.
A case in point is Kerry Nettle’s bid for re-election in New South Wales. Earlier in the year it seemed safe to assume there would be a traditional three-all split between left and right, with Nettle fighting a probably losing battle with Labor’s number three, Senator Ursula Stephens. In that context, any improvement in the Labor vote would have been damaging for Nettle. Now it seems Labor might be strong enough to win Stephens a seat without excluding Nettle, perhaps even bequeathing her a measurable surplus as preferences. That would boost Nettle’s chances of overtaking and defeating the Coalition’s third candidate, Senator Marise Payne.
The story is similar in Victoria, given that Labor and the Democrats have thought better of repeating their 2004 preference exchanges with Family First (who nonetheless have a vague chance if they can match their vote at the state election).
There has been a further stroke of good fortune for the Greens with the entry of independent Nick Xenophon in South Australia. Such is Xenophon’s popularity that he looks likely not only to win a quota in his own right, but also to deliver the Greens a substantial surplus. This could help their candidate Sarah Hanson-Young overcome the third Labor candidate, Cathy Perry.
Bob Brown should have no trouble winning a seat in Tasmania, the question being how the remaining five seats will divide between Labor and Liberal. There is familiar talk that Brown might do well enough to also carry running mate Andrew Wilkie over the line, but this at least seems a little too optimistic.
The two states where Labor’s strength does not help the Greens are Western Australia and Queensland. Western Australia does not look likely to produce the huge swing required to cost the Liberals a third seat, so a strong hike in the Labor vote has the potential to squeeze out the Greens. Nonetheless, their candidate Scott Ludlam remains the firm favourite.
Labor is also becoming hopeful of winning a third seat in Queensland, which it has never done before at a six-seat half-Senate election. On the other side of the ledger, there is a chance that the Coalition will lose the seat of Nationals Senator Ron Boswell to Family First, who will harness the entire right-of-centre vote if they get ahead of Pauline Hanson. It’s hard to see how Hanson herself could put a quota together, despite all that has been written about her minor successes in preference negotiations.
The remaining wild card is the Australian Capital Territory, where Greens candidate Kerrie Tucker threatens an historic win at the expense of Liberal incumbent Gary Humphries. This would be especially significant because territory Senators’ terms are tied to the House of Representatives, so that an end to the Coalition’s absolute majority would take effect immediately.
While it is likely that not all of these potential Greens wins will come off, they will probably have around five Senators joining the two continuing from the 2004 election, to be joined on the cross benches by Nick Xenophon and continuing Family First Senator Steve Fielding. The Coalition will be reduced from its current majority of 39 seats out of 76 to around 35, while Labor should increase its current 28 seats by four.
1,322 Comments
Election 2007 Play List (In no particular order)
Express yourself, Eric B and Rakim
Another one bites the dust, Queen
The final countdown, Europe
Wont get fooled again, The Who
Blue sky mine, Midnight Oil
Should I stay or should I go, The Clash
Changes, David Bowie
Gone daddy gone, Violent Femes
One angry dwarf and 200 solemn faces, Ben Folds Five
Power in a union, Billy Bragg
Killing in the name, Rage Against the Machine
Bottom Line, Big Audio Dynamite
From little things big things grow, Paul Kelly
Beautiful day, U2
Am I ever gonna see your face again, The Angels (including the extra lyrics)
And finally….
Non, je ne regrette rien, The immortal Edith Piaf
For all the Greens talk about how big and bad Labor is, could the irony be that Labor ends up delivering the Greens a meaningful parliamentary presence?
cityblue it works both ways
Costello made an announcement today saying that Labor’s policy costing would not be available until at least Friday if at all – due to Kevin Rudd being a sneak.
But this was overshadowed by the “ineligable 13″ story revealed by Robb at the same press conference.
Are the Libs really trying to win this election at all?
Please, no more “yay me first” type comments.
NB…
I rather like Alan Parsons..
eye in the sky
turn of a friendly card
Or if you like an excuse to annoy the neighbors..
Frida – theres something going on. (on repeat)
Hey William. just some friendly advice from someone who runs a number of bandwidth-hungry servers in both Oz and the US
I don’t know how much control you have over the way your blog works, but I think it would be a good idea to remove the “Show All” link you have in each thread as it mean a ridiculous amount of traffic every time some moron refreshes the page (if they are in that view).
For example, your Galaxy: 52-48 in “marginals” thread, expanded to show all 10 pages, is a whopping 600K+ in size – imagine that page being refreshed several times, by several people, over and over…
Just a thought….
You shameless cheat NB! Repeating your previous post – tisk tisk.
cityblue what if green prefs get labor over the line in bennelong, nth sydney, and wentworth? will you be chuffed or what?
cityblue: ALP winning many lower house seats will be largely assisted by the greens.
Its a win win for both.
Not sure I know how to do that George, but I’ll look into it. Would anyone know how to tinker with my paged comments plugin so it doesn’t take you back to page one when you submit a comment?
You’ll notice William that I wasn’t expecting to be first – I was just wondering what it would be like.
Ineligibility debacle leading on 5pm ABC news
Kevin Rudd brands Peter Costello a ‘right wing radical’ (news radio). Um.. so er.. whats new?
I doubt they expect the ALP to pick up second ACt senate spot. It looks like they just did a google search and listed anyone who’s name hadn’t been take off governmental websites, pretty weak.
Jude,
I’m egotistical to think that it’s actually a nice theme, although others are free to disagree. So I repeated it because I didn’t want it to get lost at the end of the last thread. Again, sorry William I know we’re eating your bandwidth.
The only reason the Libs pulled this stunt was to get Downer and the AWB affair off the front bench.
Dirty dirty politics.
what about cricket?, should customise a cricket ball with bushy eyebrows.
front bench = front page
The problem for the Libs is that most people have no idea how our electoral system works. So saying a candidate is ineligible will mean jack squat to these people. Too technical and as boring as all get out. You might as well rabbit on about party factions for all the good it does.
ABC radio BrisVegas.
All ALP candidates have resigned positions and they are all proper.
21 – That will make Robb look a goose.
More unsolicited advice from Alexander. I suppose in his next life he could write a book of etiquette:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22790661-12377,00.html
William I was wondering that myself – going back to page 1 gives me the shits but i thought it was me and my slow machine
I think a bit of silliness and light heartedness is a good thing on a blog like this.
Gary @20
People are so p#issed off with elections that the prospect of a by-election, no matter how fanciful, could make them vote for candidte who will stay his/her term.
21 hope that is correct. If so, I’m upping my prediction to 90, and pleading with Gillard to say, “Right enough of playing nice f***knuckes, lets spell out some ome truths…
Has anyone done the latest GG/Online Opinion poll? Someone in there must have a sense of humour, one of the questions asks you to describe what kind of dog both Howard and Rudd would be if they were dogs, and why….
25 Mad Cow I think thats what makes this site work – I dont comment much though – I like to watch
ruawake, got a link?
Like many Libs, he actually doesn’t require any external assistance for that.
#21
When is this going to hit the front pages of news ltd? Rudd needs to get all over this NOW (any ALP staffers reading please get the campaign team onto it).
cb, it wouldn’t surprise me if William is a bit short on sleep at this moment. Makes me nervous to comment on the blog itself (duck).
I think the worst case for the Libs with this stunt is that it becomes their Ralph Willis moment.
Sorry I will be off-topic but everytime a post is placed on this blog it gets 100 responses within a minute. So I’ll try to be one of the first.
Let’s first introduce myself. I migrated from Italy, joined the Australian Labor Party in 1982 and did not renew my membership in 2005. This was a combination of my anger that Labor did not counteract Howard on the Tampa in 2001, my disinchantment with Australia generally after the above mentioned Tampa, 9/11 etc and the associated islamophobia etc. and the fact that I had a young family and I did not have the time to devote to political activities.
I still remained an ALP voter. I guess my political beliefs would be closer to the Greens but I somewhat got a bit annoyed at they holier-than-thou attitude.
I will be voting ALP for the House of Representatives and Green for the Senate. Living in one of the safest Labor seats in the country (Batman) it doesn’t really matter.
However, I am not an Howard hater. I think that he really believes that his actions are the best for Australia. I believe that on that account he is genuine, and in a sense this is what it makes it so sad that when we were on a path of becoming a forward looking country, he dragged us back by limiting our horizons – and many Australians agreed with him.
I am also alarmed by the chortling and gloating that many contributors have done here over the past few months based on the polls.
I fear that if Howard wins on Saturday (which is still a possibility) many of you will be so shattered after believing so firmly for such a long time that Howard would be tossed out. I hope you can take it on the chin. It will be really disappointing but life goes on. There are things beside politics.
Australia has a fantastic environment. Just its skies are beautiful. Should the result not go our way. Just wake up on Sunday. Avoid all media (especially The Australian!) and look upwards and take a big breath.
It still nice living here.
26 Chris – I’m not convinced they would change their vote for that reason. I have no evidence one way or the other, but I’m not convinced of that argument.
William, have you considered setting up an IRC channel somewhere for election night so that the site doesn’t melt down?
35 But Robb obvoiusly thinks it’s worth a go.
very good idea Dave
ABC Radio PM show are leading with Workchoices Mark 2 cover up.
This made my heart sink a little…. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22791429-5013871,00.html
When the Greens hold the balance of power in the Senate and Labor’s getting frustrated that they can’t pass their “slightly-less-WorkChoices-ish” IR legislation, this statement is going to come back to haunt them. Especially seeing as the Greens are much less inclined to compromise than the Dems were over the GST for eg.
That Downer, what a d1ck
Looks like little Lexy may save the day after all.
“Mr Downer says he wants the 16 countries at the meeting, including China and India, to sign an agreement on reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
“If we can get their agreement to energy intensity improvements, that is using energy more efficiently, if we can get their agreement to greater efforts in the area of reforestation, that would be a great achievement, that would be enormously important,” he said.
I can imagine him running back on his widdle fat legs saying ” You don’t have to vote us out , look look what we have, we’re green, we’re green, we believe, we believe.”
Its all the fault of the voters! heh
mc – I haven’t slept much this week and am a nervous wreck – god knows what William’s doing – I can’t even get a rational argument happening with myself – optimism level – ahhhhhh 60% – wringing hands
My campaign video playlist:
The sounds of silence (After John Howard)
The Party’s Over (The Party’s Over)
Forgotten Years (not, not… responsible)
Bright Side of Life (Dead Parrots Society)
For light relief and some serious satire: “Labor View from Broome’
37 Chris – desperation will do that to you. For this to work at all the allegation must be substantiated or you look tricky and this government doesn’t need another example of looking tricky.
Great question Dave, I have begun preliminary inquiries into doing just that. However, I am a complete babe in the woods when it comes to this kind of thing, so I would love to hear from anyone who has any expertise in this area. Email me at pollbludger – AT – bigpond – DOT – com.
Penny Wong demolished the Robb claim on 10 News. Robb looked flustered and uncertain – as though he was not really believing what he was saying.
I posted this on Possum Comitatus:
From the reporting, all that I can see is that the LNP has collected together a list of 13 candidates who were previously public servants. That’s all. They have taken George Newhouse’s situation and then said that “it might be possible” that the other candidates are in the same situation. The legal advice appears to pertain to the question of whether a by-election would have to be held if a candidate were found to have failed to resign in time. Well derrrr. We knew that a by-election was an inevitable result of such a finding.
See how slippery this is? No proof, just an assertion that they were public servants, therefore they may be in the same situation as the dill in Wentworth. They don’t actually have the proof at present that those 13 candidates have failed to resign. So the candidates are now being forced to come out and say they are okay, thereby distracting us from the IR referendum (oops sorry the election).
It may backfire on them actually – just heard the Victorian candidate on ABC 774 – great! 13 candidates, otherwise undistinguished, going on the media to confirm what great candidates they are!!
41 Bob Brown said at the national press Club that they would not block Labor’s Workplace Changes
Labor slams desperate libs
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22790836-661,00.html
Mad Moo
No link just heard it on the 4:00 News (Qld Time).
It just smells very desparate and people don’t like technical arguments so it can only be a negative for the Libs. Look at Newhouse. Prior to all this talk he was getting no traction at all in Wentworth. Since then the whole electorate knows it is a tight race. I think it has helped him. And those well educated swingers in the eastern suburbs won’t like it at all as it smacks of smear….
there will be plenty more sh$t throwing before the week is out… Labor will do well not to throw too much back….
on more positive things… looking forward to the ministerial accountability announcement and linking that into AWB, Imigration department, Haneef… etc etc….
Even the Herald Sun is saying that this is likely to be a major embarrasement for the libs.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22790836-661,00.html
Cityblue @ 51: Well I’ll be. Bob Brown seems rather determined to embrace a Rudd govt, despite Rudd seemingly not wanting to know him.
Howard has moved out to 1.60 on centrebet (bennelong) for the first time in about 2 months or so.
NB Says:
November 20th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Election 2007 Play List (In no particular order)
Excellent – now how about you configure it a an iTunes list…
Too late – its out there.
The lasting impression will be possible Labor stuff-up, not LNP smear.
Blindoptimist 907 in previous topic said:
“The coalition really must think the public are idiots – a fatally wrong assumption on their part, as they will soon discover”
Are you sure about that, remember Tampa, kids overboard, WMD, AWB and so the list goes on and on and on
“In what is likely to prove as a major embarrassment for Liberal Party campaign spokesman Andrew Robb, Labor has refuted claims the 13 hopefuls are all ineligible because they failed to resign from Commonwealth jobs before nominating for parliament.” (Herald – Sun)
This story just turned nasty on the Libs – the headlines tomorrow won’t be pleasant for them.
Rumour has it that Howard’s former mistress will go public in the next few days and declare herself against WorkChoices. Is this idle gossip or something else?
Nick @ 56 It shows that Bob Brown has learnt from the stuff ups by the Greens in Victoria and won’t allow the Greens to be labelled as “pro-Workchoices” like the greens in Victoria were labelled “pro-nuclear” when tehy voted down a anti-nuclear bill earlier this year.
This story had little time to be seen as a stuff up by Labor (of course it wasn;t anyway). The WHOLE story will be told tonight and tomorrow and it is a bad look for the Libs.
Thanks William for this free-fire zone!
Anyway, when the Libs are reduced to using websites as the basis for their claims its quite clear that they are trying to latch on to anything to distract attention for WorkChoices Mark 2, otherwise known as the “Arbiet Macht Frei” employment policy…
A person may well have been on a board, or council…it doesn’t make them responsible for the updating of the body’s bleeding website….
Give me a break
also, btw, has anybody seen Jeff Kennett with his new ‘tash? surely it must be done for charity…otherwise he’s angling for the job of “arbeits-gauleiter-uberalles-steh-auf” ambassadorship in a returned Howard government…..
and yes, I know what he is on the record as thinking of both Howard and Costello!
anyway, just hope the cameraden in the NSW Liberal right cabal are going to be up for a bit of counselling from beyond blue once this all goes down…alex hawke, david clarke and john howard group therapy is now in session…
And Guido: welcome back!
JIm @ 59:
Wrong mate, Labor has rejected it lock stock and barrel. This will hit the 6 O’clock news and the current affairs shows as a desparate Libs smear campaign gone wrong.!
Have you read that Hwoard doesn’t fake it with Costello?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/not-faking-pm/2007/11/20/1195321747836.html
@62: ???
ooppss, another own goal by the libs. I suggested they would implode but my God even I can’t believe how pathetic, panicked and desperate they have become.
One thing we do know now is they DO NOT believe they have a hope in hell. There is no way they would panic and clutch at desperation like this if they thought they had even a remote chance of hanging in.
Jim. it’s out there now??? are you kidding. average jo and joanne are stuck in their cars at peak hour listen to a couple of moron comedians spin tunes from 90’s boy bands and Oz idol winners. OR they are at home doing the after school battle with the kids… “no jimmy you cant have another coke. sit down and watch the telly or play your playstation!”. OR they are still at work, or at the gym etc….
its only us that have probably taken too much notice of this. it’ll all be gone in about 40 mins. Tony Jones will chuckle about tonight in his intro and then it will exist no more….
@60 Mr Fawlty
It’s grevious isn’t it.
cityblue @ 63: I like this new direction from the Greens, I think their moral high horse, holier than thou attitude has definitely hurt them in the past, and if they want to become a major contender they will need to make some painful ideological compromises of the kind that the major parties make all the time. This could be some small steps in the right direction imho.
Where has the ALP refuted the Andrew Robb claims?
62 Snoopy
That’ll rock my world!!
So have Labor responded? You must link when you reference! What sort of Lefty intellectual snobs are youz?
Oakes will go big time on the Robb blunder. It will be a shocking look for the Libs in tomorows MSM – reinforcing the “mean and tricky” image. Their campaign is unravelling like none other in recent memory.
Centrebet is narrowing though
Snoopy Doo Doo @ 73: right here – http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22790836-661,00.html
As Gillard said once before, the bastards will drown in their own mud.
Snoopy Doo Doo – try 52 for the link.
“Rumour has it that Howard’s former mistress will go public in the next few days and declare herself against WorkChoices. Is this idle gossip or something else?”
Yes, but what does his current mistress think?
William, just kicked some more in the tin for bandwidth, keep up the great work, will put some more in when my bets come in after Saturday (oh happy days).
Snoopy – Penny Wong held a press conference and called it desperate politics from a Government that had nothing to say.
the link:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22790836-661,00.html
Did anyone else here (straight) get perturbed by the Howard and Costello duo interview? How many think that ppl would have seen and heard that and gone ‘EEEwwwwWW!’
I know I was dry retching on the inside.
77 Historic Election – it is but the fit hasn’t hit the shan yet. What a stupid thing for Rob to do.
I am reading a book “Excellent cadavers” about the mafia assassination of the leading anti-mafia prosecutors, Falcone and Borsellino. After they were killed, everyone said “You just cant beat the mafia” except for one former mafiaboss turned informer who said “No, you are all wrong. This is a sign that they are totally desperate and they are about to lose.”
This desperate and despicable act by Team Rodent and Robb will be seen in the same light when the bloodbath takes place on Saturday. Let there be no compassion for such a deplorable bunch who have run the country based on the politics of greed and fear.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22790836-661,00.html
Read and weep Rodent felchers.
Tell me please, who is the current mistress, is it Dolly?
85 Gerr – please, do we have to talk about it? I’ll be eating very soon.
The Labor denial was firstly in edited into the original article. Then removed. You can limk to it as above, but it seems news has removed the denial from the main web page….?
And here:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22790994-5012863,00.html
Robb ‘cobbled the information together from websites’
Geezuz H. Christ, and this guy is on the tax payers payroll.
Holy mother of god.
Snoopy Doo, cut the crap. Jim, you last post just proved if futher proof was nacessary, that you are a vile little toad.
I’d far rather the Democrats hold the balance of power than the Greens or FF.
LIBERAL Party assertions that 13 Labor candidates are ineligible to stand in Saturday’s election are ‘baseless, ridiculous and desperate’ the ALP has claimed.
In what is likely to prove as a major embarrassment for Liberal Party campaign spokesman Andrew Robb, Labor has refuted claims the 13 hopefuls are all ineligible because they failed to resign from Commonwealth jobs before nominating for parliament.
Mr Robb said legal advice suggested the ALP candidate for Wentworth, George Newhouse, may be ineligible for parliament and had compounded the problem by refusing to release relevant documentation.
Twelve other ALP candidates may be similarly affected, Mr Robb said.
However, Labor has just released a statement saying all 13 resigned from their positions in accordance with electoral guidelines.
”All 13 candidates standing for the Australian Labor Party in this Saturday’s election are eligible to stand for public office,” ALP spokesman Alex Cramb said. ”This afternoon’s press conference by Andrew Robb was pure desperation.
”The claims against the 13 ALP candidates cited by Andrew Robb were cobbled together from web sites. All 13 candidates are valid and they resigned.
”Mr Robb’s claims are baseless, desperate and ridiculous. These claims are completely untrue.
The Liberal party is desperate. They have nothing left to say”
wow.
so what are the odds on Goldstien now ?
Gerr – I saw a clip of it after one on Kevin and Therese’s Morning interview. Costello was talking about his political marriage with Rodent – very unpleasant conjunction of associations.
91 Jim – I think you’ll find you are looking at the original story and not the updated one. Penny Wong was on the news.
Glen.. The Natasha or Meg Lees Democrats?
My wife was watching it at the time ( I refuse to listen to anything Howards says anymore and walked out when it was on ) and she reckons it would of turned even the gays off as well. !
ON Channel 10 news Paul Bongiorno just ripped the Libs a new one – “transparent”, “apparently the member in Hinkler is supposed to be working for a agency that no longer exists..”
ALP response is still included in this article on the GG
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22791352-601,00.html
hahahahhaahahaha The Liberal Party’s legal evidence that the Labor candidates are ineligible?
They red it on the Labor party website.
What a bunch of jokers.
i have to say, with the Howard/Costello love-in, the stupid statement by Robb and Howard yesterday promising never ever to repeal, change and virtually set in stone the workchoices legislation for ever (or is that ‘never ever’), it really does seem that their polling must be telling them it’s all over.
Nick @ 41
The Greens have given a public commitment to support Labor’s legislation to get rid of WorkChoices, but the Greens will move amendments to strengthen workers’ rights.
They will be amendments that a lot of unions, who are disappointed wth Labor’s Workchoices lite position, will want.
I hear the creaking sounds of an impending ugly implosion.
Smirk had the interview first on Sky, accusing Labour of not submitting costings and intimating that this was illegal – then came Robb – Smirk couldnt make the accusations, but let it up to Robb to do the dirty work on Newhouse and the other 12 – and intimating this was illegal as well – I wonder why – duhhh
RGee the Democrats that could work well with both sides of politics Liberals and Labor.
Anybody but the Greens, and FF really.
Getting ahead of myself.
Anyone ever seen the original Italian Job? With Michael Caine?
Remember the scene when they pull off the Italian job and news gets back to UK and partic the Mr Big Noel Coward character in jail?
Remember the scene when all the prison inmates chant and bang their pots and chant Mr Big’s name (cant remember what it is exactly) and Mr Big turns to them like he’s onstage after a grand shakespearean performance?
That’l be Rudd on Sat night.
Family First will vote with the Liberals on social issues, and with Labor on economic issues.
Why would the Libs pick someone so unappealing as Robb to go on the news with this? Especially since he’s going to draw fire from the telegenic, articulate Penny Wong.
The whole Robb 13 thing was about Wentworth – shows that they really think they will lose the seat.
Howard and Costello looked like that old gay couple reminiscing on the ‘good old days’, how they survived together in the face of adversity after all those years, stroking up each other egos. For a minute I thought they were about to hold hands. Made me want to vomit. What they forgot to ask was “Peter would you turn gay for Johnnie ” who knows maybe he already has.
Haven’t heard from Adam for a few days….
Centrebet now Maxine 2.2, Rattie 1.60, the narrowing, the narrowing.
114: Dinsdale Piranha
Check a few of the old threads.
He said he’d be too busy to contribute until the election.
Rates Analyst, reply from the previous thread.
The North Sydney Poll was reported on the Blog http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/728
Adelaide Advertiser Polls, showing a 10% swing to Labor in Hindmarsh and 14% in Adelaide.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22638480-5006301,00.html
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22649966-5006301,00.html
I predict the outer suburban electorates will hold up for the government, while much more safer inner city ones fall to Labor. Say the Liberals in Victoria retaining Latrobe, while losing Kooyong and maybe Higgins. The inner city small ‘l’ Liberal progressives have been wanting to stick it into the Howard government for ages, now they will.
Robb’s legal advise is worth as much as Turnbull’s Rain Machine.
Oh look, only 545pm and already its a “major embarrassment for the LIbs”. As predicted.
Their useless campaign team needs to be taken to the knackery.
As I said in the other thread if Newhouse wins Wentworth and they force a byelection the only result is to make the seat safer for him.
After all this is what happened in Lindsay in 1996. As William himself has stated.
Labor’s Ross Free held Lindsay by margins of around 10 per cent throughout the Hawke-Keating years, having previously been member for Macquarie from 1980.
He was most unpleasantly surprised to find himself voted out in 1996, following an epochal 11.9 per cent swing to Liberal candidate Jackie Kelly.
Free was able to secure a re-match because Kelly, who did not expect to win, had failed to get her affairs in order before nominating (she was still serving as an RAAF officer, an “office for profit under the Crown”). Voters dragged back to the polls on a technicality rewarded Free with a further 6.8 per cent drop in the primary vote, and Kelly picked up another 5.0 per cent on two-party preferred.
The combined 16.9 per cent swing to the Liberals meant the electorate’s demographic profile came to be seen as typifying John Howard’s constituency – high numbers of skilled workers on good incomes, low levels of tertiary education and a distinctly less multicultural flavour than suburbs closer to the city.
116, i put on a bet at $2.70 ill be a happy man if the rodent loses his seat
If the Libs had just gone after Newhouse they MAY have been able to make a case or at least give the impression they had one, but as usual they went too far and included 12 others. Now, because they’ve been found out to be wrong on these 12, their case against Newhouse is obliterated along with the 12.
The Libs are covered in it and the steam is arising.
“Why would the Libs pick someone so unappealing as Robb to go on the news with this?”
When you look at the alternatives available they probably drew his name out of a hat.
Has Loughnane been boned and Robb is now running the show?
Thanks Tristan
To all those Labor hacks here, what evidence has your HQ put out that proves that these nominations were legal?
This talk of previously safe liberal seats looking risky while holding on to the spiv vote is very similar to what happened in the US from the 1960s onwards. The democrats were once the party of the rural south, while the republicans were the party of old money and industry in the north. Civil rights, Vietnam and oil shocks changed all that, and now, as we know, the “red states” are in the south and the democrats hold the north east, north west and California
Are we witnessing an “inversion” in Australia?
A-C, The burden of proof lies with Robb.
A-C
How does a candidate resign from a position that no longer exists?
A-C@128, Half of the organisations the Libs are saying the candidates work for don’t even EXIST any longer.
what was that site that was going to have booth by booth results on saturday night?
it really is no surprise that this mean and vicious group of ‘born-to-rulers’ would be mean and viscous right up to the bitter end – they should all go home and write an essay about dignity. They certainly aren’t going to bow out graciously…
The fact the Liberal’s evidence is a webpage!
http://www.orgburo.com/elections/
The last time a defendant was required to disprove allegations was the Spanish Inquisition….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZQI0Xm29To
My HoR and senate prediction as entered into the Crikey tipping competition. I used the Roy Morgan senate poll to get my senate results so I will probably be way off
http://australiavotes2007.blogspot.com/2007/11/my-prediction.html
“(Centrebet CEO) Mr Kafataris said he was surprised by the volume of election betting taking place.
“In one hour this morning, we took $120,000 on Labor from $1.20 to $1.17 and $100,000 on the Coalition at around $5.”
“It’s unbelievable … the interest in it.”
“The election book is our biggest turnover book of the year. We would hold upwards of $4 to $5 million on the event.”
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=104544
This farce and further loss of a day to put out any positive messages was authorised by B Loughnane, Liberal Party, Canberra.
Am I right to assume this whole candidacy thing has been overblown and will be quickly forgotten?
“In what is likely to prove as a major embarrassment for Liberal Party campaign spokesman Andrew Robb….”
Herald Sun tells the truth….
109
Glen Says:
November 20th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
RGee the Democrats that could work well with both sides of politics Liberals and Labor.
Anybody but the Greens, and FF really
————————————————-
That is complete nonsense – the Democrats concur with the greens on like 95% of issues. Therefore if the Greens are radical, so are the Democrats, and so are the scientists that provide the foundation for their policies. If anything, The Coalition should be getting a battering from the media on their ‘dirty’ labelling.
They have legal opinion for Wentworth, the 12 other allegations are just fear, uncertainty, and doubt based on Labor candidate resumes. It doesn’t take into account whether or not they have resigned. It just says sometime in their past they had government jobs.
Hi all can’t stay long but this was in Crikey today:
2. The Kevin conundrum
Christian Kerr writes:
The most interesting poll appears only after a federal election. It is the Australian National University’s Australian Electoral Survey.
It asks: “When did you decide how you would definitely vote in this election?”
In 2004, 14.2% of respondents answered “A few days before the election”, with 8.6% saying they only made up their minds on the day. That means that at this stage in the last campaign, more than one in five voters had not yet made up their minds.
We are four days away from the election. All the polls point to a Labor win. But what if they are missing something? Labor only needs a swing of 4.8% to win government, but if things are like last time more than 20% of the electorate are yet to decide how they are going to vote.
Last week many papers ran photos of Kevin Rudd in his school nerd days, as captain of the Nambour High debating team. He seems to have forgotten one crucial lesson from back then. You can make a fantastic case in a debate, but if you do not rebut your opponents’ arguments you simply will not win.
There is a real danger in Rudd’s election strategy. He says he will barely change a thing. So why should voters change the government?
Crikey’s Morgan polling tries to identify “soft” Labor voters, people who believe the country is heading in the right direction, but still say they are voting Labor.
There are plenty of them. According to Morgan’s most recent face-to-face poll, 21% of all electors are soft Labor voters. What if they change their minds?
The polls say we will elect a Labor government, but they also say we believe the Liberals are superior economic managers, even after the recent interest rate rise. That contradicts political logic.
“I can’t explain why they are going to throw the government out,” one Labor MP told me last week. “I have a nagging worry they won’t.”
“They like the message, but they don’t like the messenger,” a senior Liberal staffer said of their research into voters’ views.
“They don’t like Howard, they don’t like Costello but they like the government and like Rudd,” another explained.
“Rudd’s popular, but he hasn’t made a case for change,” a minister claimed.
Liberal MPs say that they have not picked up any real anger with the government, yet report a desire for change. That is the conundrum of this campaign.
Kevin Rudd has said he is an economic conservative. For most of the time he has been Labor leader, he has gone out of his way to minimise the policy differences between his party and the Liberals. So if Rudd represents no change – or little change – why change governments? It would just be change for change’s sake.
Australians are conservative about changing federal governments. We have only done it five times since World War II, and never when the economy looks so robust.
Will the undecided voters back the government? Will the soft Labor voters stop their flirtation? The ANU’s Ian McAllister says undecided voters “tend to be swayed by policies, they tend to be swayed by their own particular economic self-interest”.
He describes them as “people who are making much more rational calculating decisions about their votes”.
Or will the votes of people yet to make up their minds likely to follow the direction the polls have pointed in all year? We will have the answer soon enough.
Send your tips to boss@crikey.com.au , submit them anonymously here or SMS tips and photos to 0427 TIP OFF.
Channel 7 news Melbourne was on Workchoices and a cover up by the Libs and nothing else. Fantastic.
John of Melbourne, it’s quite well known psychologically that people say they make up their minds in the last days or on their way just so it sounds like their open to the suggestion of changing their mind.
In actual fact there’s very little difference between polling aggregates and the final result.
Gary Bruce, it was the same with 9 news. Of course we can expect screaming headlines in the News Ltd tabloids tomorrow:
“RUDD SHOCK: 13 CANDIDATES CAN’T BE ELECTED, FIND OUT IT ONE IS YOURS”
William – another suggestion to save on bandwidth – have the site default to the last page of comments, not the first, after someone posts a comment. Otherwise you automatically incur two page views (one to load the first page, another to get to the most recent page).
A-C your obvious anger over how the Libs have stuffrd this up is understandable.
Patrick Bateman I concur, you can do it William.
Turnbull’s campaign workers have been spotted removing Greens placards on electricity poles in Wentworth and putting up his ones instead. As a Greens member normally I would feel annoyed by that, but it is an encouraging sign that the Liberal party is desperate.
ding buzz
ding buzz
ding buzz
HAHAHAHAHA…..no mention of the “Mr Robb 13″ on channel eddy in Melbourne
Howard says he hasnt encountered anger over workchoices.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/20/2096283.htm?section=justin
Did he forget to add “in my own household” or “while praying at church on Sunday”
RE Wombat no mention on PM either at least in the first 20 minutes I heard. Probably too late to make the news.
Yep, nothing on either Channel 7 or 9 news on the 13 “ineligible” candidates. The media might already be marking this as a baseless scare tactic and moving on.
148 Lose the election please – your right in that it will be in the papers tomorrow but you have the heading wrong. It will be along the lines of “Libs shoot themselves in the foot”. They have proven to be incorrect. This is ‘embarrassment’ time.
HAHAHAHA……………..no mention of Mr Robb or his crap on channel eddy in Melbourne!
But the ABC TV News will spin it in favour of Howard
cb, I find myself getting there fast …. my optimism level though is very high, it is just the angst, top to bottom, from the other side that I am finding at times difficult to deal with. This is my first federal election in Australia. Have other elections always been like this in the last week or is this election unique in that respect? I don’t have any other to personally judge it by.
mb, if you’re really lucky you might get a celebrity to help out with handing out HTV cards on the day!
Senator Heffernan.
How can you say that Xenophon has improved the chances for The Greens? His preferences are split evenly between Family First and The Greens. If FF (who have a strong presence in SA and outpolled The Greens in the Upper House in the 2006 state election) outpoll The Greens, then they will be the ones who benefit from Nick’s surplus. Xenophon’s entry has pretty much halved The Greens’ chances.
The tawdryness of this latest Liberal attack on Labor reminds me of Malaysia’s Dr.Mahatir’s attacks on his political enemies. the outrageous lies and dissembling, the low Macchiavellian cunning of the accusations, the abuse of the trappings of office, the manipulation of the compliant media, it is all there.
I love this country, but I am ashamed and disgusted at what it has become politically because of the actions and ruthless mentality of it’s leadership and Government over the last eleven years.
I don’t know how things will pan out under the Rudd administration. I can only hope they will put an end to my embaressment as a citizen of this nation. It won’t take much to be an improvement.
William is already aware of the comment submission -> back to front page issue.
regarding using IRC…
William Bowe@,
May I take this opportunity to thank and congratulate you for providing the great work/service.
Please keep in mind that IRC programs/protocols are blocked for many of us at work.
This will not be a big deal on election day (Saturday) and “celebration day” (Sunday
where most if not all of us will be at home.
During week days / working days, however, this might be a problem.
PS. Will you run this blog beyond next week, William?
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION.
But seriously, I thought the last time a defendant was required to disprove allegations was about three months ago in an attempted Queensland show trial run by Kevin Andrews and Mick “incompetent” Keelty. Luckily for the defendant they were able to disprove it, this time.
#1
Can I include ‘Ding Dong, the witch is dead’ in the play list?
This is just the thing to spur ALP supporters on till Saturday!
Same for me – the very first thing I thought of was Singapore and Russia, elections being rigged indirectly by declaring opposition candidates “illegal” or “ineligible” or otherwise using the courts as an avenue to shut them down.
The ALP should seek an urgent injuction in the High Court preventing the Libs from peddling these lies until after the election. They would get one.
Do you think the Libs ever intended the 13 candidates story to be a major thing? Is it possible it was just made as some throw-away comment that got blown into a big story?
I haven’t seen the footage so I couldn’t know.
HA HA HA HA
We have 2 new contenders for “Stuffup Of The Campaign Award!” –
Andrew Robb and Brian Lochnane.
This was so scandalous Laurie Oakes didn’t even mention it on Nine news.
It’s funny how Glen and his Liberal troll mates have gone quiet all of a sudden
The Liberals will already be regretting they have made these absurd allegations. To the extent they havemade news, they’ve largely made the Liberals look ridiculous and distracted from any chance they had to put a more positive message out. The day’s news is the workchoices cover-up and bungling, unsubstantiated allegations against their opponents. Another terrible day on the march to oblivion.
what do people think is where Penny Wong’s future lies?
i see her as a future Attorney General. Oh to have a person of her standard as the country’s guardian instead of the Walking Dead Ruddock.
she is immensely impressive amongst a lot of hacks on either side of the benches.
where do others see her ending up?
John of Melbourne 145
There have always been voters who make up their minds late in the piece.
But all the evidence shows their votes break the same way as those who made up their minds earlier.
The election is over. As to why the government is getting thrown out on its ear at a time of great prosperity, no one knows. Hence all the nagging doubts about whether it will happen.
But happen it will.
It will only be for Saturday, Frank. Yes, this site will stagger on beyond next week. Thankfully, a huge election drought is looming.
Penny Wong would make a very good Attorney General. She is a smart lady.
a drop in the ocean, mebbe scare a few Wentworth voters into sticking with Turnbull, more importantly it gets the WC2 stuff off the air. The only thing it actually “proves” is that Newhouse is a moron
But I think most ppl already knew that and quite a few are going to vote for him anyway
163. Therapy:
1. Split ticket A goes to greens, B goes to fundies first. Like Donkey Vote, more people will choose ticket A. Plus many Liberal voters and more Labor voters will go with ticket A then B, because the Greens are supported more than ff generally.
2. I’m betting the Greens will outpoll FF by atleast 4% in the senate – the recent polls have shown that, plus if you have been aware during the campaign, a bet such as that is logical.
Penny Wong is ineligible to be Attorney General because she is a lesbian.
She certainly seems very capable and principled.
However, she’s backed by the left, so promotion opportunities may be limited in the current ALP – especially coming from SA, home of the SDA.
Hmm, I think Penny Wong could be a great A-G… Another option would be something like Assistant Treasurer, if they wanted to give that job to the Senate. She’s very quick.
regarding the “13 candidates ineligible…”
It is a win-win situation for Howard nevertheless. Even if it turns out a dud, it serves to distract public / media from scrutinising other serious embarrassment for Howard, say WorkChoice.2,… you name it!
The loss of Marise Payne would be one of the true tradgedies of this election. She is one of the most intelligent, compassionate and decent politicians on either side of politics. If she is defeated I hope she continues in politcs or in some other capacity in public life. Both sides of politics need more like her.
Spiros
We have had a gay Prime Minister before, I don’t see wht we can’t have a gay AG.
Ok, ok, settle down people. There are only two possibilities. The allegation that 13 Labor candidates are ineligibile to stand is either true or untrue.
If it’s untrue, the Libs will be crucified. It will be seen as the last desperate throw of the dice by a clapped-out, hysterical bunch of scare-monkeys.
If it’s true in whole or part, consider the prospect of Labor, in Government with a healthy margin, immediately facing between 1 and 13 by-elections.
That’s the chance of getting between 1 and 13 Jackie Kellys. A chance of increasing their bag from, say, 85, by a good 10 seats.
These are, after all, seats that Labor is probably not gonna need to win to form government in any event. Apart from Wentworth, none are marginals.
Byelections in seats like Ryan will give the good people there a chance to “get with the strength”, as it were, having already seen what the rest of the country has done to Howard and his Merry Men.
They’ve done it before at a byelection and may relish the chance to do it again.
frank frederic, your logic would be impeccable if Howard was way in front.
But he is way behind. This just chews up valuable catching up time.
So what if Penny Wong is a lesbian – at least she has the guts to admit it. She is a smart, very capable woman. Who she chooses to get her rocks off with is irrelevant.
#183
But Frank all those things you WC2 etc got mentioned on ch9 news in Melbourne but not the “dirty 13″……hahaha
Spiros #180.?? I hope that was intended as a joke or an attempt at being sardonic. Otherwise it is the utterance of a fool and I dont believe you are that.
Regarding the nomination “scandal” I flicked between both Seven and Nine news here in Sydney to see how it played out.
Both bulletins led off with lengthy stories about the Workchoices cover-up and featured the same wonderful footage of the Prime Miniature looking shifty and uncomfortable as he answered the media’s questions about it.
Seven briefly mentioned the nomination “scandal” at the end of the report with a brief snippet of Robb’s press conference followed by Penny Wong’s eloquent reply. Nine DIDNT EVEN MENTION IT!
If what I hear about Paul Bongiorno’s comments on Ten News is true (ie that he said it was all a desperate Lib beat-up) Id call that a clean sweep for Labor!
ruawake 188, I was making an ironic point about stupid claims about ineligibility.
We’ve had a clinically dead A-G for some time now, so what’s wrong with a lesbian one?
Cheers Spiros.
Penny Wong would be absolutely fantastic as AG.
“Howard says he hasnt encountered anger over workchoices.”
That is because his nine bodyguards keep people at a distance.
All of his appearences are carefully staged managed with his minders gently grabbing his arm and directing him to the next friendly encounter.
If Howard had had the guts to attend the Melbourne Cup then he and Australia would have seen how unpopular he and his laws are.
But that is why he did not attend, not a good look to be roundly derided on national TV in the middle of an election campaign.
The Libs ploy could easily backfire on them too. If any of those candidates loses by a few votes, you can be sure there will be a court challenge due to the implication even though it was false.
arbie
who?
Christian W – yep I caught Channel 10 at the half way point in their news when they do a recap of the main stories, they then did a cross to Bongiorno with the line “And Paul how damaging will this be to the ALP?”
He almost laughed.
After he finished, my wife said “Wow! talk about an ad for the ALP”.
Will from Kooyong, taking that a step further, it would be truly hilarious if Labor lost the election by razor-thin margins in, say, one or two seats, and used this smear to overturn the margin.
What a bunch of Nervous Nellies on this eligibility thing you all are!
Robb is “playing with Labor’s mind” on this one.
HE is demanding that LABOR nominees produce proof THEIR nomination is valid. What a bloody cheek! They just can’t get it out of their thick heads that they are NOT born to rule. After Saturday there’ll be more more “demanding” anyone produce anything. They’ll be out of office.
This is how the public will see it, too.
The Libs are a bunch of tools. This will play badly for them.
Evan @ 186
2 of the other 12 are marginals. 1 in QLD and 1 in SA. If it is true Howard has pulled another rabbit out of his hat and this one is from ‘Monty Python: The Holy Grail’. Quick were is the Holy Hand Granade.
Arbie J @ 185,
“We have had a gay Prime Minister before”
Which Prime Minister was that?
Forgive me if someone’s already pointed this out (have not had time to read all previous posts), but I was just looking at Portlandbet and Labor are now favourites in Corangamite.
JWH drowning, not waving.
Kiwipundit,
‘Pixie’ McMahon.
Julie @ 161
This election is unique. Normally, the libs run a pretty tight campaign, on message. Howard in control. This one has been a shambles. All over the place. I believe it will go down as their worst in recent history. However, it goes further than just the campaign. Many Australian voters proclaim to not giving a rats about politics but are ruthless when they are dudded. They also have long memories. It all adds up. They have turned on Howard. I am nervous, but … I feel something in the air. I went to a rally in Melbourne and cheered my head off for Gough Whitlam. Now, it seems It’s Time …
BTW, no mention of Robb on ABC’s PM.
It will be interesting to see how this plays in the morning papers, particularly if the News Ltd papers beat it up for all it’s worth. Probably be lead story in the GG, but really, who cares.
If the tabloids go heavy on it, it could become an issue.
I totally agree.
She is one of the only Lib senators (along with Georgiou and Brandis and one or two others) who is prepared to rise above party politics on matters of real importance. It is a reflection of the pathetic state of the Lib machine that she’s third on the ticket and likely to pay for the hard right wing of her party’s mistakes at this election.
# 11 William
If you have the Comment ordering set like thus;
$paged_comments->ordering = ‘ASC’;
And your your Default page value set to
$paged_comments->default_page = ‘auto’; OR ‘first’
then you will get the behaviour you are seeing.
change the default page value to
$paged_comments->default_page = ‘last’;
OR change
$paged_comments->ordering = ‘ASC’; to
$paged_comments->ordering = ‘DESC’;
and leave
$paged_comments->default_page = ‘auto’;
either or dependign on presentation preference, give it a go and see if that does what you want.
Hope that makes sense
It’s been rumoured that the Libs are a bit short of cash!
They’ve spent a motza on advertising, mail Etc.
They’re going to spend a fortune in challenges in the Supreme Court???
Wouldn’t it be a delicious irony if the party of ‘Australia’s Greatest Economic Team’ went bankrupt after the election.
I used to be a credit manager and if I were Australia Post or a TV Station I’d have ‘em on no more than a 7 day account.
Speaking of the A/G someone should ask Ruddock how much he got for his soul.
A lot of nervous nellies on this blog – relax and think of the numbers 85 & 53/47. May I ask those who are not confident of a comfortable ALP win, under what set of circumstances would you be?
Under no circumstances
It beggars belief that the ALP’s due diligence would be so lax as to let through a dozen disqualified candidates. One or two maybe if they were latecomers in safe coalition seats.
I notice Robb denied using government resources to inquire as to the job statuses of the candidates concerned. (Not that that would give them any insight as to state govt posts, or probably local govt or academic ones).
Does anyone know where the ‘released’ legal advice can be found?
Pancho’s ‘The ABC of Johnny’s Empire’, now with soundtrack
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0yfGLa9YcIY
Speaking of the Senate (where this blog originally started) I attempted to predict the Senate based on Antony Greens predictions for each state. If the ALP win the Lower house (which to me seems a given – I have them at 87 to 90 seats) they have almost no chance of having control in the Senate.
I mangled and crunched the Senate numbers as much as possible but still came up with a new Senate of :
ALP 30
LIB/NP 38
GREEN 5
FF 2
DEM 1
These figures mean that the ALP will need Minor party support for every bill to get any laws passed. Even one defector from the minor parties defeat the bill in the Senate…..I grant my prediction could be wrong BUT:
a) Why has there been so little attention given to this important outcome? Its hardly had a whisper!
b) Is a Double Dissolution a real possibility?
ABC on line leading with the story but a fairly balanced article
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/20/2096105.htm
Those who have allegiance to a foreign power are ineligible to stand. What is Tony Abbott’s position given his allegiance to the Bishop of Rome (the Sovereign of the Vatican State)
Nice of Robb to let us all in on the fact that internal Lib polling is suggesting things are as dire as all the published polls suggest.
Graeme@214
‘Office of Profit’ is very complicated, not many solicitors are prepared to make a judgement. However, it applies to anywhere or anything, renumeration or whatever from the Government, State or Federal. In fact, if you are in a private company with Government contracts, such as acting as a ‘advisor’ to Government, you could well be judged to be in an ‘Office of Profit’
Did anyone hear Robb say ‘helligible’?
216 AJ,
If the prediction concerning the Senate is true, then of course a double dissolution is theoretically possible, once the bills have gone thorough the requisite number of times and been defeated. We could then completely cleanse the Parliament of this unrepresentative swill.
McMahon
AJ if the Coalition had 38 senators then Labor would need more than the support of minor parties. If the 38 voted together they would be able to negative any vote. 76/2=38.
All these scenarios about the Senate voting assumes the Nats will vote with the Libs. Joyce has already said he will support the Labor IR changes. Smart heads may not want a DD and be prepared to deal.
So Barnaby won’t be dealing, GG?
Remember Barnaby – he will vote for the IR bills. Maybe.
Apologies to William for my “yay me first” comment on the Newspoll thread
Everyone thinks nothing will come of this 13 ineligible seats stuff?
If they weren’t a mile behind, would the Libs be mentioning possible court challenges?
If they did challenge, wouldn’t that make them unpopular?
GG
The duplicitious Joyce only said that to try and win the seat for Boswell over the Greens.
in other words:
election lie No. 12568
Joyce will be an independent within the Senate within a year if he supports Labor’s IR laws. If for some reason the Nats don’t expel him, he will never get preselection for the Senate again and he would have to stand by himself or with some micro-party.
In news just to hand, the Liberal Party campaign chief Brian Loughnane has announced the Coalition has employed Donald Segretti to assist over the final few days of the election.
Mr Loughnane says he expects Mr Segretti will fit right in with the Liberal’s team and ethos. He also indicated he is seeking the avaliability of Howard Hunt.
When asked for a comment, John Howard merely replied “expletive deleted”.
179
blehygu
A split senate ticket splits the “1 above the line” 50-50 between FF and The Greens in Xenophon’s case, it’s not the same as handing out 2 how to vote cards (a lower house “split ticket”).
can’t say where i work but overheard a phone conversation this afternoon, (paraphrasing) “…yeah, we’ve checked it with payroll and they’ve got nothing to worry about….”
Grog: was that ratf**king?
#204 MGM, so currently on Portlandbet 81-67-2?
Spiros, surely it doesn’t matter which Greek island Penny Wong comes from.
I’ll be very interested to hear what the Rodent makes of this desperate smear on 7.30 report.
Mr. Rudd – Show us your WAY!!!!
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=BKmXSYi49IU
Now we just have to wait for Rudd’s “Cannuk letter”
161 Julie – I’ve been waiting all these years for this – you can’t believe how sweet it will be
Barnaby will be trying to extract advantage for his constituency. He will deal if it is in his interests. A DD is likely to increase the number of Greens and minor parties because the quota threshold will be halved. This would not necessarily be to the Nats advantage.
NEW ECONOMIC RISK COALITION AD:
I’m not sure it will work. The sky can’t be blue and falling in at the same time.
C-Woo, the reaction in my house was to laugh. That ad-man’s voice is just in EVERY single Coalition ad. The naff descriptions that they give to the ALP members is just silly.
Re. Actors in Labor ads…
Howard says “If there are so many disadvantaged workers how come Labor has to use actors. Why not use real people?”
One might say the same thing about the Lib ads: if there are so many in the cheersquad for WorkChoices, how come the Libs employ actors?
The 13 “doubtful” nominees in Labor’s team are just the ones that came from the PS or similar before they became candidates. Robb has no evidence at all. He’s bluffing. There is NO need for Labor to respond in any way. Let Robb and his Tory mates rot in political oblivion after Saturday.
Derek at 207
How do we know that it was Howard in charge in previous elections? Maybe the smarts came from Arthur Sidonis? This election is demolishing so many myths about Howard.
#241 Yes, Julia Gillard is a “fanatic”, Peter Garrett is an “extremist”, and Swan and Rudd are “learners”.
Any nominations for descriptions Labor could use in an ad featuring their equivalents – Vaile, Turnbull, Costello and Howard? You could throw Abbott in for a laugh too.
ABC Sydney led with the Workchoices thing, followed by the candidates thing. Also had visual of Penny Wong strongly denying the claims. Penny’s a good choice, but Rudd would be better…
#242 Bushfire Bill…maybe the coalition can’t afford actors. They just seem to use black and white photos of former Labor PMs and current shadow ministers. Perhaps they can’t even afford colour photos.
#233 Boll, yes 81 ALP should be right as I think Page took it to 80. I noticed some narrowing action in other seats, Cowper for instance, which hasn’t moved for quite some time.
Um – what happened?
Antonio 244
Vaile – sharp as a bowling ball
Turnbull – unreliable
Costello – lazy/gutless
Howard – yesterday’s man
Abbott – unstable
Sorry about the comment ordering reversal. To be corrected shortly.
The things is Swing Lowe – no need for Rudd to challenge little Andrew Robb. If Rudd turns up it looks like a story, if the ALP can only be bothered to bring out Penny Wong, well…
All Rudd and Julia have to do is just trash it when asked, no need to call a press conference to give the story oxygen.
The last time the Libs used a real person in their Work Choice ads they ended up being prosecuted.
I did the GG on-line poll. I recommend it highly. The best questions are; “If John Howard was a dog, what sort would he be?’ Then the same for Rudd. So, that’s new party game we can all play. I said Howard is a mean, but cowardly, pit-bull and that Rudd was a hardworking, honest blue heeler. But any dog has to be nicer than Howard.
ShowsOn Says… at 6:03 pm
The legal advice is based of course on the presumption that the candidate was working in an “office for profit” . It’s a no brainer. It’s the LNP’s Robb going on Mastermind with special subject “The Bleeding Obvious” in relation only to what the legislation says, backed up by case law, as the case may be.
As a practitioner myself, as I see it, I vehemently object to the political use of perfectly legitimate and absolutely correct advice which is then presented politically, using the imprimatur of a Senior Counsel, with an underlying, inherently disgraceful political insinuation, namely a presumption of guilt in an election period.
If they have the evidence, shoot. If not, shut up for decency’s sake.
217 midnothcoast
‘Those who have allegiance to a foreign power are ineligible to stand. What is Tony Abbott’s position given his allegiance to the Bishop of Rome (the Sovereign of the Vatican State)’
Or indeed Rattus’ position given his allegiance to the Dark Lord?
The Libs are practically begging for a landslide now.
What a laughable performance they’ve put up in this campaign.
Great impersonation of hopeless amateurs.
Rudd would be a poodle. All show….
You can get legal opinion on anything. When asked to provide advice you provide advice on any possible legal route to take, no matter how slim the chance of success.
I find it doubtful Newhouse, as a lawyer, wouldn’t understand all the eligibility criteria. You have to wonder whether they’d be bothering all this Newhouse bother if Turnbull was getting over 50% in the primaries (as LaborVoter contends).
Did anyone see the Bob Day and Tony Zappia (will be volunteering in Makin for him) and probably going to watch the vote at his office on Saturday Night.
God, he’s a tool.
Anyone think the Libs will now send out letters in all those seats warning the voters that the Labor candidate may be illegible?
260
Of course they will. This is as low as you can go.
(And i’m sorry if I gave away my political leaning!)
Hey, that wasn’t so hard. Thanks Slain, I should have worked that one out long ago.
It does sound desperate from the Libs to be questioning the validity of the candidates.
There you go William… becoming a technical mastermind.
Interesting comment on David Pemberty’s blog today about the TT interview:
Hmm – I thought it was pretty soft. The hilarious thing is, here are two blokes who’ve never even had dinner together like normal friends do, and they’re four days away from what looks like defeat, and they finally decide after 11 years to sit down together for a matey chat on the couch. It looked desperate. The only interesting thing about it was the novelty of seeing them sit together. It was a great coup by Seven to get the interview, but i suspect they secured it on the basis of keeping it very, very tame, because they could really have hopped into the leadership, the mechanics of this confusing handover – you name it.
Works good Will
229 grog
So theoretically,
Donald Segretti
equals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfucking
equals
need to edit wikipedia for new Antipodean definition, post 24/11/07 ???
Sid Mariss’s piece in the GG notes that Gary Parr’s “crime” is to be listed as a member of the Bundaberg Ports Authority council. The Lib party hack who turned this one up didn’t bother to do any further research, otherwise they would have found the BPA had merged with Brisbane Ports Authority in May 07 and Parr’s council position came to an end at that time.
It’s becoming obvious the “public record” search Robb kept harping on about was someone googling for candidates names, and the substance of the claims comes down to organisations not updating their websites.
Congratulations on a fine “own goal” to Andrew Robb
Notice this week the absence of the big spend. If Rudd had matched Howard last week, it would have been open slather in the last few days – especially from the Liberals. Rudd effectively ensured the rabbit stayed in the warren. Brilliant strategy.
And Swing Lowe at 245: A Rudd response would have led the news – the wrong message. As it was, Rudd kept on message with his petition and Workchoices.
For the coalition calling for Labor candidates being out of touch
Pot. Kettle. Black.
El Rodent on 7:30Report
William, How do I make a financial contribution to this site for us tragics?
Andrew Robb the Elmer Fudd of Australian politics with his mantra of: It’s wabbit season.
ROFLMAO
So far Howard’s had to justify the papers he wont release regarding WorkChoices – 4 minutes wasted – love it!
272 alpal – go to the home page. Paypal button on the left hand side.
btw has anyone seen esj? im wondering if he came good & put $100 into williams account.
Given the tracking of wikipedia edits, I’ll let you do it JFC!
Cue: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qF6WMUm0fUw
William, the first change (making the comment appear on the same page it was submitted from) means you should see some serious reduction in your bandwidth usage. It at least takes away one extra page visit after (previously) being redirected to the first page on comment submission – cool
Hmm perhaps I should mention that the numbers I quoted were BEST CASE for the ALP, its not inconceivable that they only have 29 senators….any comments? Its certainly not something I would wish to see given the large legislative amendments needed to get some of the ALP’s platform inplemented.
I definately see an obstructive Senate looming and it concerns me.
AJ
Just watched an old bit from the Australian version of Top Model.
Apparently even models hate John Howard.
Turn down the sound. Just look at Howard’s facial expression on the 7.30 Report. You can just tell it’s all over.
Flash @ 282, agree – and they’re still discussing IR, past and present, and facts and figures – 10 minutes into it. Blah Blah Blah Blah…
Ferk! He’s losing the plot – I hope you guys are watching
He has no idea
updates of the rodnet interview would be greatly appreciated by those of us up north that acknowledge the true time of day… not some time made up by humans merely dividing the day into equal parts. who has heard of such nonsense!
Yes but, no but, yes but, no but, yes but…
Hang on, hang on hang on hang on….
Kerry could I suggest that’s the past….
On 730 Report, O’Brien is tearing Howard a new one…BIG TIME, tune in, Howard’s flumoxed,
its sounds like Vicki Pollard is being interviewed!
This is tough enough to follow for the informed.
We’re down to a fraction of university educated economists at the moment….
middle man, Kerry is calling on Howard’s comparisons with the (Labor) past and getting him to explain how he argues Labor will be bad for the economy. The beauty of this is that he has now wasted 15 minutes discussing the one issue that is political poison for the coalition… IR.
I’m a faithful Labor voter of 30+ years, and I’m still nervous about whether Labor can win. I just don’t have faith in the Australian people. In 2001, the support for Howards actions over Tampa were overwhelming. The letters of support arriving in Canberra were in floods! Letters proposing that the Australian army should go over and shoot the bastards *before* they get on leaky fishing boats etc. Race riots on Cronulla beach with hundreds of skinhead thugs wrapped “proudly” in the flag? (The next generation of “honorable” ANZACs??) The total shrugging off of military intervention in the NT? An indigenous community lodges a High Court challenge to question the legality under the federal Consititution…and most Aussies, just don’t give a flying &*^&% as long as they get their pork. Face it, a majority of Aussies are a**holes.
The total annihilation of State govts through fiscal punishment, ie withdrawing funding. (No wonder they are in debt) In Tassie, the Mersey hospital, and to a lesser extent the mill, are State govt matters, and wouldn’t have been national dramas if those electorates weren’t so important to the feds. Personally, I’m sick to death of hearing about Tasmania’s “issues” every election campaign.
The Intervention in the NT should have been a federal issue. for all Aussies because of questions about using federal powers of national military, federal police and federal powers over welfare quarantining, as a tool of discrimination on one segment of the population in one territory. The Coalition say they will extend these powers nationwide, and *NOBODY* blinks an eye — as long as they get their pork. I genuinely hope that Rudd’s careful campaigning of trying to appeal as a credible alternative to that huge demographic of a***holes works, but I’m not sure.
Knowing Labor’s bad luck, will get in with a small majority and face a freaking hostile Senate and a feral Opposition playing sabotage. I wouldn’t put it past them to stage a military coup and the majority of Aussies would say “thats OK, as I long as I get my pork!”
Kerry O’Brien is confronting Howard with various measured points about both his own past performance, and the performance of the Keating government, in particular.
Howard is flailing around, barely making a serious attempt to deflect the points O’Brien is making. He seems utterly deflated, a lost man.
Kerry and Howard just hate each other. You think Kerry is thinking, “F*ck it, this is my last interview with him, I’m not even going to pretend…”
libsrok
In a comment far, far away, William did confirm that ESJ stayed true
to his word.
@288 Bonds underwear about to apply for a patent to cater for the new Howard anatomical make-up.
ooohhhh i cant wait to watch it when we catch up to the rest of the east coast!
From the electorate of Dawson, home to that model of ministerial (ex) brilliance, Deanne Kelly.
Whilst the city of Mackay is decidedly labour voting, the provincials have the lovely Deanne on an overall margin of 10+ %.
Nonetheless, you should see the amount of TV advertising tonight. It’s a blitz and she is making more promises at the moment, than she made funding (pork-barrelling) decisions, immediately prior to the last election.
Apparently we’re getting camera’s in our fair city. Her area of responsibility has obviously diminished significantly since getting the sack as a minister.
Is she running scared?
Grog Says: “Kerry and Howard just hate each other. You think Kerry is thinking, “F*ck it, this is my last interview with him, I’m not even going to pretend…”"
How sweet.
Kerry’s certainly done his home work. Howard’s not getting away with his usual bullshit.
18 minutes in… now he’s using Shamaham’s words against the Rodent…
301 George. That is just beautiful!!!!!!!!!
I’ve got to say that Kerry is also revealing some of his own flaws – he’s incredibly well briefed tonight – why doesn’t he do this on a regular basis?
Kerry deals up Shamaham alam alam and JWH in the one question – a bit too cut and Howard walks around it.
Back to the detail Kez
Howard: “there’s no such thing as changing the Government without changing the circumstances of the country”
Amen to that, rodent
Pessimism comes with being a Labor voter.
Keryy is (by proxy for PJK) doing him SLOWLY
Howard: “if we lose the House, we wont control the senate”
And that’s bad because….?
21 Minutes in – Nuclear Power
Oh drop the bomb on the bomb!
207,
Derek, thanks for that
That gives me some kind of perspective. This election was one of the reasons I wanted to make sure I had my citizenship behind me so I could add my vote into the lot 
Howard: “Let’s have an adult debate about climate change”
It’s called “Global Warming” and it’s happening in your head as you speak…
I believe Howard has already written his concession speech for he knows he is cactus. Based on the 7:30 Report performance he is mentally deflated as the reality has set in. .
Geez I hope Rudd is on his game tomorrow night.
I’ve changed my assesment on Wentworth.
If the Libs are getting this desperate to save the seat, Malcolm may indeed by in trouble!
Gloria agreeing with Flint that the Media is soft on Rudd.
http://livenews.com.au/Articles/2007/11/20/Media_complicit_in_Rudds_spin
23 minutes in – Howard’s “education revolution” – although Howard doesn’t like Kerry using the term “revolution”… “I was being ironic” he says
Howard: Kevin Rudd’s Union “Masters” in the union
Wow, we’ve gone from “Bosses” to “Masters”… of the Universe?
Kerry has done a job on Howard tonight.
Kezza’s roasting him. Now he’s saying the “education revolution” he proposed in the debate was an attempt at irony.
Loser.
316. that is priceless.
I just checked portlandbet. Not only has Corangamite moved to the Labor column at $1.82/$1.90 but there has also been significant firming for Labor in Cowper, Robertson, Page, La Trobe, Hasluck, Swan, Dawson and Dickson. Eden-Monaro now at $1.14. I noticed that Bennelong went back out to $2.40 earlier. Back in to $2.32 now. Wentworth eased back to $2.40. The Corangamite and La Trobe prices were the ones that stood out to me.
25 minutes in: The MILLIONS spent on advertising; Kerry: “staggering
amount”
I don’t think any of this interview will move votes one way or the other. Howard has become very boring and tiresome these days.
He really looks resigned and deflated, too.
Howard: “Judge ud by the central things you judge a government by”
Kerry: “I would have thought ethics was central?”
William – slight fixup for HOR guide. You’ve mixed the candidate list for the New England and Newcastle electorates. What an interesting prospect it is seeing the bold sitting MP Tony Windsor for Newcastle. Now that’ll get those country folk scratching there heads.
Also, in the listing of all the seats in your pendulum – under reference note 6 – you have the margin for Indep over Nationals with the name Bob Katter- and not Tony Windsor. 
Just thought that might help.
27 minutes: “Why did you ask the advice of Downer and Cabinet on whether you should leave and then not take their advice”
OH THE HUMANITY!
i’ve just ordered my favourite pizza and will be settling into to watch the roasting when it comes on in Bris.
28 minutes in: “What if you lose your seat on Saturday”
Oh, PLEASE, make it stop!!!!!
EtP 321
Something is obviously brewing in Victoria, despite the already high (relatively) Labor vote.
JHO ’s head getting red
Kerry will give it to Rudd tomorrow as well. The best journalist in the country by a mile.
Howard mean and sneaky, full of contradictions, hypocrisy and lies, a pathetic human being, who undoubtedly has been our worst Prime Minister since Bruce.
Ed – there will be a tsunami in Victoria. Labor is playing it down. But it will happen – McEwen, Latrobe, McMillan, Corrangamite, Aston – and watch out for Goldstein ( it will be the sleeper – and that’s one of the reasons Robb was out there tonight on Labors candidates:profile)
Kerry went for the Kill!
Howard down for the count….1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9…
Kerry: “are you telling me MR Howard when your head hits the pillow at night, that you are not contemplating a possible loss”
I’m breaking down.. I can’t take it anymore…
George are you making this up? the ethics line is top shelf.
“my focus is my focus”
“you only change if you believe change is for the better”
Howard is Mr Yesterday, These lame responses where he has contradicted himself, did NOT rule out or ducked the question of Nukes, and changed history to suit himself, including disputing keatings enterprise bargaining revolution.
Sad
Pathetic,
Yesterday,
Never was.
“It’s not like getting a Christmas present you don’t like and returning it…”
Yeah. It ain’t. You’re the worst Christmas present I’ve ever had.
“My focus is…”
Myself. It always has been rattus cuneiformitus.
No-one listens to Kerry, the ABC 7.30 report is CB radio for political junkies like us, it matters not
What is it with the dyed Eyebrows?
Kerry: “Thank you sincerely for making yourself available as often as you have”
Classy Kerry, very classy.
When does the transcript or video of 7.30 Report go up online ?
He is defeated, body language, language, voice.
Howard is defeated and he knows it.
Think he will lose it and cry out “Mr Speaker Mr Speaker” if Kerry keeps pushing.
middle man Says: “George are you making this up? the ethics line is top shelf.”
middle man, my fingers are bleeding
check later and let me know how i went with the live transcript
A touching moment at the end where O’Brien says it may be their last interview, and he thanks Howard “sincerely” for making himself available so often, even during the tough times. I can’t help thinking O’Brien is turning his mind, a little, to Rudd’s refusal to go on Insiders and what that may portend.
The Howard Government has practically wrecked the ABC, but two things survived Kerry and in a much tamer version Media Watch, hopefully Howard will go and the ABC can be rebuilt.
George. He really used the past tense “have”, and not “as often as you do”? that was pure class.
Gawd is he STILL on?? How long must the fat (or bald) lady warble???
No wonder there staking a trip down memory lane – there’s just so much baggage – I mean history to dredge up.
Is it a case of Kerry asking for Howard to come on or like Downer with Lateline he has a regular spot.
GS, it’s all over… I mean the 7:30 report…
Ohh
im getting all teary eyed after watching the end of the 7.30 report,
a touching moment in tv
That was indeed very classy by O’Brien thanking Howard for always making himself available. That is true I guess.
I guess Rudds going to get a rocket over that tomorrow.
Nevertheless, These two men, O’Brien and Howard, both knew this was their last interview in their current roles.
Tonite was history gentlemen! And Ladies!
marky marky. it was a request to have both leaders on for extended interviews, to which they both agreed. Rudd has to face to wrath tomorrow night.
Has anyone else noticed how Kev and Julia always refer to JWH as “the prime minister” or “Mr Howard” whereas John and Peter often refer to KR as “Kevin Rudd” or “Rudd”.
John Howard just committed political suicide.
I know that. I am talking about the past but of course Howard only refers to it when he wants to.
So what is Howard’s problem with a worker electing to have a union represent them?
I thought he said that was OK.
Or was it only OK last week, but not this week?
George – sorry, yes it is. But I was referring to JWH’s voice still reverberating in my head!
ViggoP. that is a deliberate strategy. research showed that the public still respected Howard but thought that he was getting a bit past it. so they reflected that by using prime minister or mr howard.
When and if it does happen how will we feel? Will we feel sorry for the rodent in the end? After his concession? If and when?
Re 236,
The Finnigans Says:
I can’t thank you enough for posting this link. That was beautiful. I have passed it onto all of my friends and family. It made me cry like I do when I watch teary eyed type feel good movies.
You think that was amusing, turn it over to SBS now and watch Insight. An audience full of ‘undecideds’ who will possibly decide the nation’s future.
Now I’m really depressed…
It’s about time that Kerry- hell anyone – questioned Howard like that on his own economic record and his criticism of Hawke and Keating. Loved the fact that Howard tried not to talk about the past because it was exposing flaws in his arguments yet Kerry kept dragging him back there on the basis that it was the Coalition that raised Labor’s record in the first place. He actually made Howard answer the questions because he was using Howard’s own words and twisting them, forcing Howard to clarify. Brilliant work K O’B. Still, it won’t sway votes one way or the other because the arguments are too complicated and can’t be explained in a 15 second add break. Howard has already won that argument with his years of rewriting the Labor economic record.
As other have said, Rudd will need to be on the ball because Kerry does like to appear balanced and is likely to go harder on Rudd to compensate for the perceived bias. If Rudd is good, it maintains the status quo but if he stuffs up, he could lose votes.
Howard can’t do it! He can’t give any government other than his own any credit for anything done in the last 100 years.
What a clown.
HAHAHAHAH what!? Enterprise bargaining wasn’t introduced by Labor?
UNBELIEVABLE! Howard has completely lost it.
Kev O’Brien IS balanced He goes for the kill no matter who you are , its a matter of his pride.
I am going to record it – could be Howard’s last interview with Kerry.
Its part II of the “I just dunno Jenny” series. Insight is usually worth a look although sometimes I feel as if I’m in company with about 200 others out in TV land. Deserves better I reckon.
Can someone on PB please help me pursue Edward St John (ESJ) on his promise to donate $100 to William if last night’s/today’s Newspoll was better than 53 TPP in ALP’s favour. It was 54-46
This morning I posted:
William: On Sunday, under Morgan phone poll 56-44 at 7.54pm I posted the following:
“William: I posted the last post on the thread that has just died or lapsed:
ESJ #562:
I’ll take you on for a $100 donation to PB so long as you promise to shut up until William confirms you’ve paid the $100. 53.00-47.00 ALP TPP = draw (and we both give William $20. ALP 53.01% TPP and you pay William $100.”
I hope he’s paid”
This is getting very dense with quotation marks and yesterday threads. Issue is that I bet $100 against this assinine self-important pompous parading poncing pratulous prick (ESJ) and he lost the bet: Newspoll 54-46. Was it a core promise to pay the gambling debt or is he just another preening troll git with the ethics of everyone else in Howard’s Liberal Party?
I’d be very pleased, since I am about to go out for the evening if someone could take up the cause. Please someone when ESJ logs on tonight throw this at him.
And as for “generic person”. WTF does this combination of clueless adjective and noun mean? Why don’t you call yourself “thick idiot”. This would at least get the sympathy vote.
Oh me! Oh my! Kerry all but blew rasberries at Howard.
My cup of happiness explodeth
70% of Labor frontbench are trade-unionists.
And 100% of the coalition frontbench are c**nts.
Where after today, where would the undecided be?
#366
I know I can’t get off the floor
I have heard some rumours about Howard possibly being in ill health. Maybe even doing a ‘Mitterand’ shortly after leaving office. Inspite of his grave misdemeanours in office, I think all commentators should contemplate this possibility. It is a measure of our humanity, how we extend the hand of compassion when approporiate. Lets face it: the guys is a politcal dead duck. Sun Tsu said, “Do not interfere with an army that is returning home. “
I thnkI would rather watch Costello pashing Howard again on Today tonite than watch those utter illbred halfwits on SBS.
Sorry Middle Man, I don’t like to be a pedant, but “have” is present tense, as is “do”. To be accurate, “have” is used here in the present perfect tense.
Kerry was effectively saying “Thank you sincerely for making yourself available as often as you have (made yourself available)”. It does not imply that the act of “making one’s self available often” has ended (though I agree it probably has!).
Past tense would be: “Thank you sincerely for making yourself available as often as you did”.
Having got that off my chest, I agree with you, and suspect it is indeed Howard’s last interview with Kerry as PM.
And I do agree that Howard has seldom shied away from facing hard interviews, though, like all pollies, he indulges on plenty of media manipulation. He understands that 7.30 Report interviews have a flow-on effect to other media. In the Howard biography (which I thought was fair and interesting), the authors make the point that Howard uses ABC current affairs program to speak directly to his troops – ministers and backbenchers. Rudd may indeed adopt this course of action if he becomes PM.
Unfortunately, Howard has failed to adapt to other kinds of media (internet, Rove, FM Radio) that speak to young voters.
Mind you, Sun Tsu also said, “Violent language and driving forward as if to
the attack are signs that he will retreat.”
ph apparantly esj was true to his word
All Howard had to do is give a TINY bit of credit to the previous government, and THEN go into his spiel.
Getting all teary eyed over Howard. Yep i bet he was over workers when he gave us workchoices. Yep also when he sold Telstra and yep when he gave to all Australians a GST.
And yep i bet Howard got teary eyed over people in detention and Mrs Rau and Mrs Solon. And the people stranded on the Tampa of the Western Australian coast, stuck without food or water in the blazing sun.
I certainly don’t get teary eyed over Howard a mean, pathetic human being.
Antonio. I’m always willing to learn. Thanks.
I wouldn’t worry Gerr, it’s going to rate as highly as a ODI between Kenya and Canada at 2.00am on a Sunday morning.
@380 marky Walburg?
Yeah, nuf said.
sorry, but my tears have told me they don’t have anytime for humans with no heart.
Constant Lurker @ 243
Quite right. Probably Arthur. What I was getting at is that Howard was the public face – the man in charge. We know know it was a con.
Hey El Nino, I will give the rodent the same compassion he extended to David Hicks.
He lost any right to sympathy a long time ago…..
He can f*** off and die for I care
Marky Mark spot on assessment – this man has completely ruined the lives of innocent people and actually used their plight to further his own career and that of his party.
I, too, will not be shedding a tear for him when he gets ousted.
# 361 Gerr Says: November 20th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
You’re kidding, right? The guy thinks nothing of demonizing helpless people, and we’re supposed to have sympathy for him?
Not a chance.
In the future, this will become known as the Howard years… the decade of hate.
hahahahaha……sbs…….he has ronald reagan disease
While I am on a roll with Sun Tsu (perhaps Kev is a student):
Howard has to take on notice when he will put legislation in parliament!?
WTF?
The Rodent King is having far too many senior moments of late. Fancy suggesting labor was not responsible for EB! What next? Labor didnt float the $ or deregulate the economy in the 80’s. Pathetic, absolutley pathetic, even by Rattys usual standards. Crikey, soon he will ask for Nelson Mandela to be released from prison.
Pi, my sentiments entirely. Howard is one reason why i am an atheist.
Pi Says: “You’re kidding, right? The guy thinks nothing of demonizing helpless people, and we’re supposed to have sympathy for him?”
Right on Pi. Amen
Julie 362. I’ll second that. And KD Lang; there’s a lady I could change my sex for.
I believe Paul Hodgson is referring to a bet he also made with ESJ in addition to yours Libsrock.
and I am so tired of polls saying how great the Libs are as economic managers.
The interest rates under Keating weren’t that bad for chrissake. Sure there were a few “losers”, (who still whinge 20 years later! Ohhh Get over it! Most of you recovered long before 96 too)
For me, I was a “winner”, 18% of $60K meant people like me could get in on the housing market, when prices went tumbling. No GST and stamp duty was peanuts!
Its not the interest rate, its the capital sum you are paying the interest on that is the problem!
Basic Year 7 maths, and do you think these idiots in the mortgage belts can add up? There sure is something wrong with the education system.
It was a global recession, other countries were much worse off, and Australia recovered quicker than most. It was short-lived, a couple of tight but not disastrous years, and the most vulnerable of society were still protected from the worst blows of it. To me thats excellent “economic management”, as a country amongst dozens of others caught up in it, we did extremely well in comparison, and the majority of Australians came through it.
It was just Keating didn’t sell himself well… wasn’t one for PR, too tactless, introverted and “cold” for the cameras, and Victorians especially, never forgave him for stabbing their golden local boy Hawkey. I must admit I was one of those, Hawke was popular, Keating wasn’t, but he was a damn good Treasurer and economic manager, through both crises in the early 80s and then around 90 etc – he did well to bring this country through with a minimum of pain, and recovering quicker than other countries.
Howard/Costello have presided over good times and sold it off, sold off various assets, the national Gold Reserves, ie robbed the treasury, and then robbed the poor and even the middle-class, with over-taxing, and there will soon be nothing left to sell! Thats where all their surpluses came from! From my pocket and my national treasury! Now they want to sell off Aboriginal land (and probably for much less than its worth, like the other assets they have sold) so they have to take $10/week off the disabled, insult the poor buggers when they ask nicely for some subsidised medicines.
As for Unions – *sheesh* No wonder Rudd has got at least the Youth vote. The Gen-Y 20-somethings wouldn’t know a Union if it bit them on the bum, they were dead 10 years before they were born, and aren’t scared of “Union bosses” – as they look very much like their current generation of employer “bosses”!
The Gen-X mortage-belters were raised on horror-stories and myths, and honestly believe things like “Unions would take my pay away”….. nothing ever stopped an employer offerring “above award” individually or collectively, and some of us oldies were in very conservative white-collar unions that wouldn’t look out of place at a Liberal Party picnic. For my generation your Union card, was like joining the NRMA/RACV – may never need it, may never use it in a lifetime, but cheap and tax-deductible “insurance” was nice to have. Unions were a part of the cultural landscape for generations, up there with vegemite.
Drives me nuts. So many Aussie voters believe the crap about this stuff.
I’ll get off my soap-box now…..
BTW, I wasn’t talking about viewing him thorugh teary eyes after his departure. I think his historical legacy should be assessed for what it was. My opinion is that history will judge him harshly, above and beyond current party politics. But for the moment the guy is just an powerless and possibly ill old man. I won’t roll an old guy for his wallet no matter what his politics are.
Paul Hodgson wrote:
William has already confirmed that the payment has been made.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/729?cp=4#comment-88690
No, I’m not Edward’s secretary: just wanting to thwart an unwarranted
lynching.
Ah just roll on E-day. Vote early and often, then backyard bbq, beer(s), ABC tv on in the background and the laptop bookmarked to PB in case it all gets too confoosin…
Re: 7.30 Report:
O’Brien chopped him into little pieces and fed them to the studio dog. I have never ever seen such a demolition of an experienced public figure in my life. Costello would have loved it now that he and others in the Liberal party can see that the game is up. The Rodent has been trapped and killed off. All that remains is for the public to throw his carcass into the political dust bin on Saturday.
Yes, that was very touching at the end of 7.30pm. I’d never imagine I would feel a little sorry for Howard, sad even.
What was I thinking?!
The Australian 21st of November 2007
MY FOCUS IS MY FOCUS: HOWARD
I remember when Fraser started balling in 1983 and felt nothing but glee after his role in the bloodless coup of 1975. I hope Howard drowns in his own tears. He has debased the body politic like no one else has in the countrys history.
‘What profiteth a man should he gain the whole world but lose his soul’? That was written for Howard.
Rain, you probably remember as well as I do, the shocking behaviour of the MSM under Keating.
El Nino your sympathy for El rodent is misplaced.
Make no mistake. He would roll you for a vote.
I’m with you Pi
Good evening comrades!
Has someone been taking my name in vain?
Yes I agree that I begin to feel sorry for Howard, to sense the human dimension. He is now an elderly man, still in fairly good health as far as we know, whose life work is about to be pulverised, in effect. He will face long, lonely months ahead once he quits Parliament, which he surely will within weeks of the election. He will be haunted by “what ifs”, most notably conversations with Peter Costello which will no doubt get a public airing.
On the important newspoll(?) scientific issue of
‘Which leader is what breed of dog?’
Howard – Shit-tzu. (sure, it’s obvious now)
Rudd – Labra-doodle, with a tiny bit of Qld blue heeler that snuck in.
Latham – a beautiful little rottie, smiling up at you, tail wagging, and the neighbour’s dead cat in its mouth.
GEEZUZ the ABC just previewed Rudds interview tomorrow night on 730report and finished with Rudd seemingly giving a heil hitler!
Steve K @ 401
Didn’t come across as a “demolition” to me, so could you please elaborate on which questions you think made O’Brien’s interview so terrible for Howard.
kerry sunk the blade in then twisted it then thank him generously at the end. he must of loved that one
It should have happened in ‘98, Flash, when people first realized just what he stood for.
C’mon Gerr!! pull yourself together man!!!!
chris, I loved that bit at the end. Come this Sunday, I’ll still have a job, you won’t.
Excellent
I hate corrections
and I meant
Latham – beautiful little STAFFIE, smiling up at you, tail wagging, and the neighbour’s dead cat in its mouth.
388
Pi Says:
November 20th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
“……
In the future, this will become known as the Howard years… the decade of hate.”
Pi, I’ve said before we must be two halves of the same wit! Let’s hope the next few years are known as “The Ruddy Good Times”
People should realise what the two parties stand for not the person. But of course people are stupid, and Australia is full of dills, just think people voting in 1998 to get screwed by a GST, and letting them get away with it in 2001, a country full of dumbos.
Can someone please tell me if Channel 7’s Mark Riley and Channel 9’s Laurie Oakes mentioned Andrew Robb’s 13 Labor MP hitlist on their election coverage tonight?. I saw the Channel 10 coverage with Paul Bongiorno, featuring Penny Wong.
What constitutes a landslide? How many seats have to be won to be so labeled ? How big should the swing be?
I am told that Paul Hodgson is actually Paul Case son of Ken Case so i guess that explains the vulgar abuse at 370.
The caravans moved on buddy!
@416
I just looked into Howard’s eyes on tv and all of the sudden I wanted a Mcmansion, a 40 foot HDtv widescreen , a ford territory, a vacation, another vacation, I wanted to hire a u boat and torpedo some SEIVS, and then machine gun the ppl in the water….I wanted to open up detention cetners in my back yard, I wanted to viliify dirty dirty foreigners dirty dirty dirty un australian foreigners! I wanted to turn on all my applainces and warm the planet so we could all walk round in bikinis…I JUST WANTED TO BE LOVED!!!!!!
Some body Help me!
Re 370,
Paul Hodgson Says:
Paul, he did make good. William posted that earlier today.
laurie oakes no
JFC what kind of dog would penny wong be?
A. Irish WolfHound
John Howard said on the 7.30 Report… you can’t learn from a book. WTF?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
esj.im glad to see you lived up to your side of our bet .in the intrest of fairness i will throw in $100 to william if ruddy wins on saturday.i think that is fair
Luke Channel 9 didn’t mention it – it was all about the work choices II
IC Moore @ 339 Around 750,000 watch Kerry every night. More bullshit from Howardistas. They’re swimming in it.
cheers,
Alan H
Watch Howard spin this.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/20/2096342.htm?section=justin
For those excited by the Rudd Sun Tsu video, I do question the use of a Leonard Cohen song for political purposes. As we all know, Leonard Cohen prefers to be used for sexual purposes (even in his Buddhist phase).
But if people insist on linking Leonard with Kevin, try this quote:
“And you want to travel with him, and you want to travel blind, And you think maybe you’ll trust him, For he’s touched your perfect body with his mind” (Suzanne)
And for John Howard:
“His body is gone, but back here on the lawn, his spirit continues to drool”
(One of Us Can Not Be Wrong)
Take of the dog and women comments please.
Howard held his own with Kerry. Of more interest is whether Rudd will replicate a similar performance without trotting through the same old clichees on working families and illusive future plans.
“428
middle man Says:
November 20th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
John Howard said on the 7.30 Report… you can’t learn from a book. WTF?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!”
Maybe he can’t read.
If you do spare a thought for the Tampa, or the people left to drown, or the people locked up for no reason. No they were not like us, but they were people, they had mothers, fathers, children, brothers and sisters just like us.
Observer, that’s not right. An ‘office’ is by definition a public thing. A company with government contracts/outsourcing is not covered.
The only problem with the law is (a) it being hidden, in a rigid way in the Constitution, and (b) the High Court’s folly in reading the date back to the time of nomination, and including State officials, neither of which make sense of the purpose of protecting conflicts of interest involving Federal MPs.
Yes, I sure do mad cow @406 –
I also remember 1975, though I was tad a too young to vote, and how quickly the masses can be so manipulated.
This election is the first time since 83 I have felt optimistic, and I am proud of the ALP for not stooping to their level, not going so low as the right-wing have.
When Fraser spoke up for the Tampa reffos in 2001, I was stunned – you have to worry when Fraser feels that this current generation of Liberals are too fascist even for his taste!
Well, he made about as much sense on EBAs as certain resident commentators.
dont they teach key historical facts (and narratives) in pwivate schools? Or is it world histowee according to Downer?
@435 Generic Person
Only serious posts please.
Antonio, you missed that classic Cohen tune “Don’t let me go home with this hard on”.
Howard on 7.30 Report is just full of sh*t. He’s telling blatant lies. Changing his mind on things he’s said previously. Knob.
“What is truth?”
Herald Sun: Labor Slams ‘Desperate” Liberals
Daily T: Cocky Kev’s Crew ‘ineligible’
The Oz: Libs Flag Wentworth Legal Challenge
CM: Labor blasts ‘desperate’ Libs
Tiser: Labor’s Angry Denial
PerthNow: Ben – I want to play in 2009
“Howard held his own with Kerry”
Oh the humanity!!!!!
I just saw the best 30 minutes of political television ever. And I’ve seen years, and years… and years. After that effort from the PM, how can he honestly – honestly – stand up as a serious option for Australia on Saturday? I’ve never seen a more deflated and confused effort from Howard.
He used to be the master of deflection – but he got sucked right in! I actually felt a little embarrassed for him.
Kerry knew it wouldn’t change a vote – only people who have decided watch the program – but he just went for it, like never before.
Haha. I’m still chuckling.
No 441
Howard had Kerry around his finger.
Speaking of History.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=wOHfhP-38OA
435 GP
It’s a problem now to have the same message from 1 day to the next?
Look, I know Johnny and his mates can’t manage it, but if Kev can it’s a bad thing?
Held his own my (and every other Australians) ass. No – he didn’t contradict himself directly within a 10 second sound bite; he just revealed himself to be running intellectually naked.
Voters converted – minus ‘a lot’.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/federal-election-2007-news/candidate-claim-untrue/2007/11/20/1195321763222.html
Labors candidates are good.
No 448
It is possible to maintain a theme without talking in endless clichee.
One swinging voter on Insiders mentioned that they were now 99% sure they were going to vote for Rudd on the strength of his interview on Rove. Kevin knows what he’s doing.
413
Hemingway
“Didn’t come across as a “demolition” to me, so could you please elaborate on which questions you think made O’Brien’s interview so terrible for Howard.”
Try the first question and then the last – and then those in between. It was a wrecking ball experience. If you can’t see that then I suggest you watch it again on-line and the ABC site. I have no time tonight for details so I’ll leave you to your own resources.
Grog, the truth is the Libs are sunk
It’s simple…..the old coot has dementia.
No 449
That article doesn’t say that at all.
Howard on 7.30 Report … “there is no such thing as a changeless change of government” WTF?!?!?!?!?!
@446
Run’o’ the mill Generic
As long as you believe it it’s ok. Stay away from all sharp objects….and from the tone of your other posts all barnyard animals.
Goodnight Irene.
Never feel sorry for Howard – he would put you in a detention centre without blinking if it meant a bunch of votes. Don’t ever misunderstand what motivates this creature.
Of course, according to the gospel of Generic Person, we don’t actually need to wait for the ridiculous extravagance of actually hearing Rudd on the 7:30 Report tomorrow to know what it’s going to be like.
Assemble a post-mortem from the following:
“Generic”; “cliche-ridden”; “weak”; “no new policies”; “reactionary”; “same old me-tooism”; “not a serious candidate”; “lack of vision”; “creamed by Kerry”; “creamed by Howard”; “union bosses”; “can’t manage ONE TRILLION DOLLAR ECONOMY”.
You’re stuffed. Get used to it.
“It is possible to maintain a theme without talking in endless clichee.”
Yeah, agree, better than talking bullsh*t, like “Howard had Kerry around his finger.”
No 452
It was not a demolition at all. Talking in hyperbole doesn’t make your case any stronger.
It was fairly even handed and it was by no means a poor performance by Howard.
Now that we have caught up over here in Alexander “brings yer” Downer land, I must say that Kerry did a wonderful job on Howard. I thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the slow water torture (It’s not really torture of course so what’s good for the gander is good for the goose). The economic stuff would have lost some viewers, but it was worth it for the obvious pain that Kerry put the rodent through & then more, in for the kill until finally came the dry run of the concession speech when the discussion turned to the Senate & was followed by Kerry’s final epitaph – RIP dishonest John
Yep Howard was the same old Howard, mean, tricky and full of lies and rationalisations to suit his way of the world. Pity no one else asks him tough questions. Maybe Kerri Anne, Alan Jones or Neil Mitchell will work out what a question means and ask him a toughy.
Toby, it sure was great to see Kerry finally give Howard the interview he deserved knowing no longer will Howard be trying to vandalise the ABC.
I thought I’d never say this , but:
ALL HAIL THE ACTU
They have flooded the Sydney TV channels with anti-Workchoices ads, meaning that Labor ads now outnumber Lib ads by at least 2:1. This is the endgame – win this and on Saturday, victory will be ours!!!
Generic Person, I thought Howard did ok… there were no embarassments that will make for a headline or other news.
However, surely you realise they all use slogans, cliches and are repetitive. It’s how you cut through in a largely disinterested population.
It certainly makes you wonder what position Labor would be in today if they’d stuck with Beazley. Arguably of more substance, but I just don’t think he cut through.
No 460
And the bullshit about Howard being demolished? Come off it.
465 – Swing Lowe
Revealing your true “prejudices” hey?
Song – What about You’re History by Shakespeares Sister.
And what was the consensus from Insight from the undecideds.
@467
Medication time.
OTOH if their general is caught with a few of his minions, the chopping and casting of the pieces thereof to the jackals was most likely an acceptable outcome for Sun Tsu.
I’ll never feel sorry for Howard, ever, I want to see him prosecuted for crimes against humanity and war crimes right up to his last breath of his most disgraceful, reprehensible, ignominious, odious political life.
Steph: sums up this country perfectly. Gee those swinging voters are a deep thinking lot. Just like Four Corners last week, we have a bunch of dills from coast to coast.
Well comrades,
I am open to wagers on Friday’s Galaxy poll any offers?
A little less conversation a little more action comrades!
What say you?
No 466
As much as I loathe Beazley’s politics, I thought he was decent clear-cut bloke.
Rudd’s a chameleon.
…” it was by no means a poor performance by Howard”
Sure, if you’re comparing it to a one legged blind man trying to light a cigarette via a piece of hot coal rammed up his bum
kina, you’re dead right. Treat him like nuclear waste. Bury him so deep he can never return.
How can news.com.au run the headline “Election could end up in court” and expect people to take them seriously?
The tit for tat here has to stop. More importantly did anyone notice Howard’s eyebrows were quite a few shades darker than yesterday?
Oh the vanity!!!
When Kerry gracefully thanked Howard for the rabbits over the years and a good life in retirement, Howard said it is important to make yourself available because you have to be accountable.
Kerry responded by saying: Well yes but that didn’t mean you answered many of the questions.
Oh the irony!!!
Not really, ESJ – I just really REALLY want to win. How we get there is irrelevant to me…
GE says
“Of more interest is whether Rudd will replicate a similar performance without trotting through the same old clichees on working families and illusive future plans.”
I’m sure I won’t be the first to suggest that future plans are not a bad thing, or that working families deserve some consideration.
I might be the first to wonder why you’ve turned cliché feminine.
ESJ, I don’t see it being any higher than 54, no lower than 52. Now I realise that gives me a bit of wriggle room but hey.
I’ll settle for 53/47 and barely anything separating Libs/Lab on the primaries.
Re 253,
Liz Says:
Liz, I couldn’t find this. I just found an online poll where you can say how you will vote at the election. [Coming from a safe Labor seat, my electorate is to date going to elect Labor with 78% of the onlinline vote
] Can you post a link or direct me with specific directions how to find this one? Thanks 
:) ….
GP,
What are you worried about? According to you Howard is going to win all 150 seats and you’ll be drunk on Saturday night. So relax.
455 GP, sorry but, “That’s B*llsh*t”
“The Age was able to contact 10 of the 12 candidates, all of
whom said they had resigned from their Government-paid positions before nominating for Parliament.”
They said they had resigned, not “potentially”, not “maybe”, not “I’ll get back to you”, not “after the election we’ll look into it on a case by case basis”, not “my legal advice is”.
And then lets use an example:
Rob Mitchell, Labor candidate for McEwen, who was named on Mr Robb’s dossier as an adviser to Victorian Agriculture Minister Joe Helper, said he resigned on October 26 and his candidacy was lodged on October 30.
OK you can say they’re lying, but give us some proof (you know that stuff usually required before making accusations)
Howard was so humiliated that all he could do was go for the sympathy vote by speaking very softly and then looking like he was going to cry every time Kerry held him to account over a) history, b) economics c) bullshit d) anything you care to mention.
And there was a headline, in fist six months of re-elected Howard Gov the frameworks for Nukes would be put in place.
Generic Person Says:
November 20th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
No 452
“It was not a demolition at all. Talking in hyperbole doesn’t make your case any stronger.
It was fairly even handed and it was by no means a poor performance by Howard.”
It was a shockingly bad performance by Howard. He will be mortified by it for the next 48 hours which only leaves him with a further 48 hours before he delivers his farewell speech.
A song for Turnball- re last night’s 7.30 Report item.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IRHA9W-zExQ
Gerr, nuclear hasn’t been an issue so far in the election and it won’t be. The nuclear reactor in your back yard scare has to be the most obvious and most lame scare… well not really… I’m still not scared of union bosses after the whole year.
Howard and O’Brien were like two old farts in a tinny, sparring about irrelevancies and reminiscences.
448 GP
I agree in principle, and as objectionable as I find the mindless talk of all politicians – apparently the ALP cliches are better than Howard’s.
Howard can’t even remember them – what will the voters thinking of on Saturday?
Here is a good rendition of the 7.30 interview
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kNKSzmM44gE&feature=related
Frank, I suggested ‘blue sky mining’ earlier…
the goodbye between Kez and the Rodent was class.
Lose the election
Howard all but said ‘f*ck yeah’ to putting the framework in place while he has contol of the senate. You may not be worried but I dont want nukes here.
No 486
You’re living on a different planet if you thought that was a shocking performance. But it’s to be expected from leftist zealots who would claim any Howard interview as a shocking performance.
#493
Pity Jho will have forgotten he was on the show by tomorrow morning.
GP,
No, most of us thought that JWH handled himself well in the TT interview. Not that that required much effort…
I agree Average Person ‘any Howard interview is a shocking performance.’ Also you should see someone about your fear of broccoli.
467 GP I suspect that you just may be even less intelligent than Howard. He failed General Maths at the Leaving. Rudd got the highest possible result in the equivalent examinations in Queensland. Please understand that intelligent people take your opinions with a grain of salt, in other words they realise what absolute crap they are, and ignore them. You and EStJ make a delightful pair, farting into the wind in unison. Trouble is, it all become a bit liquid, and its running down your leg.
cheers,
Alan H
The best part of the interview was the exposure of rodent’s sham claims of being a great economic reformer. He didnt have the guts to pursue deregulation under Fraser and rode on the back of Hawke and Keating’s reforms over the last ten years.
GP. i’ve alsways found that only verbose people use the word verbose, and the same goes for ‘zealots’,
456
middle man
Isn’t that why we vote for the other bloke because we want change, Howard is screwed whichever way you look at it.
Gerr, nuclear reactors will not be built in Australia until it has bipartisan support. They will not get anyone to invest in nuclear until that happens because of the large time frame it takes to set up. If the government was to change there’d be a lot of money and time lost.
I don’t want nuclear either, but I recognise it’s not an issue that is going to win votes. Otherwise the ALP would be running hard on it.
Cheesman has taken the lead in Coorangimite odds and Mcmillan is all also ahead. Deakin is 10cent difference. Go Victoria!!
No 499
LOL How intelligent you are by judging the entire record of the Government on the basis of whether Howard had the capacity to pass a general maths exam.
You’re uselessy condescending utterances are resplendent in their mediocrity.
Which site, centaur?
Ok ‘The election’ you win this time….but we’ll meet again….
Yeah look guys Generic is right. Howard performed no differently in that interview to any he has had in the last 11.5 years.
Peter Kemp @ 471: “I’ll never feel sorry for Howard, ever, I want to see him prosecuted for crimes against humanity and war crimes right up to his last breath of his most disgraceful, reprehensible, ignominious, odious political life.”
O/T, but have you encountered “The Ghost” by Robert Harris?
A thriller on that very subject, but about Blair. I’ve nearly finished it. Excellent stuff.
Gerr
Nukes have to put in place in the first six months if Howard is elected, after that he loses control of the senate. The libs only have a window of opportunity of six months but you can do a lot in six months.
Labor laid out the first 5 things they would do, what are the libs first 5 things.
1. Set the 25 Nuclear power station sites in legislation so that they cannnot be overturned without massive compensation.
2. Abolish the Fairness Test, its unworkable and is only a minor adjustment to Work Choice.
3.Renege on the hospitals deal, it is unworkable as shown with Mersey.
4.legislate on contractors, making it easier for employees to be employed as contractors rather than employees, this effectively abolishes the minimum wage.
5.Tie funding to further reform, ie states must put their workers, nurses, firies etc on Work Choices to receive funding.
Edward look at my post #429 and before I actually stuck up for you over your honoring the bet. dont carry on like a wanker now.
GP @ 505: “You’re uselessy condescending utterances are resplendent in their mediocrity.”
Oh, that we could have your effortless mastery of the English language.
@508
Geezuz another one….
they’re breeding delusions at young Lib HQ
AM. i’m with you. bring on the change!!
Yay.. Jim Arneman is down to 2.10
and.. Mike Bailey is down to 3.90
bring it on.. bring it on