Morgan, which ended its recent poor run at the federal level with a 53.5-46.5 result on the eve of the election, has produced the first post-election poll on voting intention. It shows Labor enjoying a honeymoon boost to 58.5-41.5, with a primary vote lead of 49 per cent to 36.5 per cent. Newspoll will presumably return to the fold in the new year.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
1,031 Comments
whats the point… atleast the newspoll had some amusing other questions
I hope they ditched their silly F2F poll
THE REVERSE NARROWING!
Looks like a bad time for the Libs to call for a new election in McEwen. It’d be Lindsay ‘96 all over again, I reckon. The ALP could run the argument that the Libs are sore losers (and they’d be right).
There’s sure to be some by-elections coming up – Higgins, Mayo, maybe Lyne and Berowra. The ALP doesn’t really have prayer in any of them (even with the pared-down margin in Mayo + the ‘honeymoon’ factor), but Lyne could be interesting… it may switch from safe Nat to safe Lib. Any thoughts?
Alp should run handshin in mayo help chew off a bit more of that margin, then it’ll be ripe for the picking 2010/11.
When Jeff Kennett resigned his very safe seat of Burwood after being beaten, the ALP won. In fact they won all the bi elections that came along after Kennett was beaten.
A prominent independent would have the best hope in Mayo, with the ALP taking a holiday or running dead.
McEwen situation:
Bailey should just swallow her pride. On the bright side, in 2010, the new Liberal candidate won’t have much ground to make up.
In a by-election in the early months of a new government there is almost no such thing as an unwinnable seat. After Labor took office in Victoria in 1999, not only did they win Burwood (6.8%), a seat which they still hold, but they also won Benalla (on 7.4%, which was thought at the time to be an aberration – a bit like Groom or Barker this time). They lost Benalla later – narrowly in 2002, easily in 2006 (where the possibly soon-to-be member for McEwen, Rob Mitchell, was on the wrong end of a 15.5% swing largely attributable to local water issues).
Whilst talking of Morgan, I happened to be reading ‘The Great Labor Schism’ (a collection of papers on the 1955 split and its consequences) over the weekend, which included a chapter on the Morgan poll – the only show in town in those days – during and after the split, and how it handled the rise of what became the DLP. This showed that there is nothing new in fanciful interpretations by Morgan of small statistically-insignificant fluctuations in their polls – they’ve been doing it for at least 50 years.
Morgan is always biased by 14% to the ALP so when we factor that in the Coalition is headed for 120 seats in 2011
Great result for Horatio Hornet – I wonder how long his honeymoon will last?
(Of course Morgan get the Nats vote wrong again
)
8 – All the Liberal campaign has to do is find 4 people who voted Labor and convince them to change. The easiest campaign in history
In regard to MeEwan, can someone tell me if it is now by-election or nothing ?. Or can the Libs still be declared the winner ?
10 Nastro-doom-us “Morgan is always biased”
Chris B says is the most accurate.
MeEwan? Is that McEwen?
With regard to that “Victorian Seat” I think it is either a Labor win or a by election. The AEC seem confident the count will not change. (Be it 7,5 or now 6).
Repeating from the Bee’s Donger:
Notes on the closest election for a H of R seat – Ballaarat in 1919. Edwin Kerby (Nationalist) defeated Charles McGrath (ALP) by one vote. Both were WWI veterans, RSL activists and prominent local sportsmen. The election was declared void in 1920 and McGrath won the special election that year with a primary vote of 51.75% to Kerby’s 39.32 (there were a couple of independents). Maybe Fran Bailey should heed that.
Apart from that hiccup, McGrath was MHR for Ballaarat (in more recent times spelled Ballarat) from 1913-34. He represented the ALP until 1931, when he switched to the United Australia Party. He died in office, aged 60.
What about Rob Oakeshott making a move into federal politics? He’d thrash whoever the Coalition put up in Lyne.
Agree with Handshin in Mayo.
I thought Oakeshott was regarded as a de-facto Liberal by many in the NSW Nats (?)
If the Liberals are smart they’ll try to grab him as their candidate for Lyne (by-election or 2010- surely Vaile won’t hang around). Nats are dying a not-so-slow death on the coast…
I think he likes his independence too much these days Marcus.
Yes, the seachangers are really sticking it to the Nats. On election night Antony Green noted how far the Nat vote had fallen even in central Qld. Sooner or later the Nats will be confined to the inland seats.
Chris B is wrong as Morgan gets it’s call registry from the ABC membership files and regularly scours Newtown, Brunswick and New Farm and the like for Unionists and Trotskyites to ask questions.
Data on morgan poll respondents suggests that 80% have dreadlocks.
Hi everyone,
I’ve open-sourced my senate calculator, Cassandra. It’s in python and if you’re a software-programming-type person you might find it of use. Obviously it was written for the Australian senate but it can be used for many proportional representation, preferential voting scenarios.
It’s here
From the Age, appropriately in the Entertainment section. Ovaries tipped officially to become a colour writer.
“Changing seats
NO, NO, no. The Oz’s friendly reporter Caroline Overington did nothing wrong in flirting with the candidate for Wentworth, George Newhouse. She did nothing wrong in giving him a “closed whack” to the head (his version) or an “open-handed push” (her version) on poll day. The Walkley Award-winning journo is such a shining light in Rupert’s empire that the paper later apologised to George. Now word from insiders at The Oz is that Overington will no longer be writing cracking news stories for the paper but moved to a role on the weekend magazine. They say it’s the cushiest form of purgatory around.”
Bull Butter!
Insanity now Glen the time for serenity has passed you by.
Sure CO displayed some very poor judgement around some issues in the recent election, but to my mind she has a significant credit balance built up through her work exposing the AWB farce and the role Downer, Vaile and Howard played in it. Give the kid a break, just as we wish that the other side would give Cornesey a break.
Insanity was election night jasmine.
Looks like Bali is going to be a flop HURRAY!
So Jasmine how was the ‘victory party’ in Stirling LOL?
It seems that Morgan have come up with a new way to make whatever findings they wish:
“The Roy Morgan Government Confidence Rating (GCR) is 144.5. The GCR is 100 plus the difference between the percentage of Australians who say the country is “going in the right direction” and the percentage who say the country is “going in seriously the wrong direction”.”
Doesn’t sound like a particularly quantitative measure of anything at all, to me.
Nelson is clearly more popular than Howard was
today Morgan Labor 58.5 -41.5
apec conference Morgan Labor 58 – 41
Nelson is coming
Is it too early to call the 2010 election?
No ’soft’ support now? So we can conclude that was just an exercise in pre-emptive arse covering?
Long range future prediction for the labor party – P.M. Rudd to win three elections (with a substantially increased majority in his second) before handing over to Australia’s first ever female P.M. Julia Gillard after serving longer than Hawke.
Long range future prediction for the liberal party and their supporters – PAIN and more PAIN! lol
Centre Gillard will never become PM, because she is unelectable just as much if not more than Tony Abbott. The ALP aren’t that stupid they wouldn’t implode in such a manner as to put Ms Gillard in as leader.
We note that even William can not comment on Morgans’ “GCR” rating measurement
What Morgan is saying is he asked voters if we were going in the right direction
72.25% said YES…27.75% including glen said NO
(72.25%-27.75% = a difference of 44.50% + 100% = Morgan’s GCR of 144.50%
Morgan’s new Polling concept should leave all speechless in our admiration
Glen, your side of politics persisted in its belief that Gillard was an electoral negative for Labor all year. They were persistently wrong.
Glen, Julia is so popular!
What about on election night, when Kerry asked her a question the crowd wouldn’t let her speak. Julia Julia Julia Julia Julia. Great stuff!
I wouldn’t be so quick with such a call, Glen. I remember much talk of the ALP being unelectable with Jules as deputy. She is the woman who had driven their agenda for the last 18 months, and holds two of the most influential portfolios in the new government. Also (on a technicality) she’ll be your PM next week.
Glen, I can only think of one politician who may be less electable than Tony Abbot and that is Kevin Andrews. Honestly, the guy is electoral poison.
I think Gillard is a polarising figure, which isn’t a safe bet as leader, but sometimes you need to be a bit risky. That time is not now, nor is it likely to be any time soon.
Pancho We also should not forget our SAINT MAXINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Bi” election? An election for those who like to vote both ways??
I know Glen doesn’t like to consider evidence, but Gillard’s public approval rating has always been quite high. It will be internal ALP factors that stop her succeeding Kev.
Back again folks, after a spell in Hospital, including Nov 24. A disappointing result in Gippsland, but the possibility is that Mcgauran could be one of the early departures. Local Nats are sh*t scared a Lib would stand, and split the conservative vote. Ah well, I always was a dreamer.
36
Centre – they were rent-a-crowd Labor left members i doubt if you took Julia onto the Streets of Melbourne people would just start shouting JULIA JULIA JULIA, its bull butter and you know it. Her unpopularity was masked by Rudd’s popularity.
Charlie, if Gillard was the ALP leader for the 2007 election, ‘Unca Howie’ would still be PM and you know it.
Ron, IMHO Maxine is more electable than Julia.
Gillard is a left wing socialist who could never get her grubby hands on Treasury as she doesnt have the numbers for a fight with the ALP Right.
Of course Andrews is poison LTEP, i sincerely hope he resigns at some stage so we can get some new talent into the ranks.
I think it will be interesting to see if and how Watkins takes over in NSW. The only thing stopping him from taking over appears to be the knuckleheads of the NSW machine. If he is given an out from the left and the top job, then Julia will have a precedent, and there will be no reason why she couldn’t be PM one day.
On Julia becoming PM. Why is it that Australia, US and UK have never had a female PM or deputy (until Julia, I’m not counting Thatcher!) when we are meant to be progressive and non-sexist, while Pakistan and India have both had female PM’s and are “paternalistic and chauvinistic”? We are clearly not a meritocracy. Just look at all the white, Christian males in power. Julia might struggle despite being the best person.
34
Ron Says:
December 10th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
“”e note that even William can not comment on Morgans’ “GCR” rating measurement
What Morgan is saying is he asked voters if we were going in the right direction
72.25% said YES…27.75% including glen said NO
(72.25%-27.75% = a difference of 44.50% + 100% = Morgan’s GCR of 144.50%
Morgan’s new Polling concept should leave all speechless in our admiration”
I, for one, am at a loss for words
“What about on election night, when Kerry asked her a question the crowd wouldn’t let her speak. Julia Julia Julia Julia Julia. Great stuff!”
It was a terrific night for girl power Centre. Took my daughters along, as well as going mad over Julia crowd also went wild when Maxine appeared on the monitor.
Tanya was also great to see on the night, big contract to Joe who was in tears when the cameras were not on him.
Don’t see why Aust can’t have a female PM, NZ does.
Adam should pass by soon to tut disapprovingly at wild speculation about events far in the future, but I suspect that unless KEv falls under a bus soon, it will be a person who entered parliament at this election that succeeds him as ALP leader.
Gillard a socialist? Glen, you don’t seem old enough to still be fighting the Cold War.
Glen
Get used to it we now have a socialist Govt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_international#Full_member_parties
Glen if Gillard did a Nelson (LOL) and joined the liberal party tomorrow, she would be leader in an instant.
Ah wikipedia, you fountain of nuance!
Julia PM. Maxine deputy PM?
That would be a sight to see.
Possum has some interesting stats at his new thread.
Not Billy. The bloke’s name Bill who lead the party weren’t the best.
It’s incredible that in the face of a massive repudiation at the last election, some characters still persist in the ‘Reds under the bed’ rhetoric witht he ALP generally, and Gillard and particular.
The current government is about as ’socialist’ as the current opposition is ‘liberal’.
When was the last time an incumbent party polled 58.5 or higher?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/10/2114729.htm?section=justin
“Gillard to be first female acting PM”
Noooo not Gillard!
Serenity Now!
Recount for McEwen…
I reckon the Libs would love to have Julia as their Leader instead of Nelson/Turnbull
What are you smoking Ron???
Why have Gillard when we can have Julie Bishop if we wanted a woman as our leader!
Glen,
Julia is magic.
Julie is tragic.
I think someone else asked this question before.
If there is a by election in a certain “Victorian Seat”
Can the Libs-Nats preselect a different candidate? I mean dear Fran is 61. Surely not generational change.
“Why have Gillard when we can have Julie Bishop if we wanted a woman as our leader!”
Admittedly, Bishop does a great Marty Feldman impersonation, but Gillard offers more substance.
What no commentary on soft-Labor voters and the key to the next election?
Morgan has reinvented itself to suit itself once again.
Interesting that Kevin Rudd was Wayne Goss’ Chief of Staff and Juila Gillard was John Brumby’s Chief of Staff.
Maybe we should look to see who is CoS for whoever claims to lead the Qld Libs and the Vic real estate guy for future Liberal leaders.
However, Gillard was Brumby’s chief of staff during his period as Opposition Leader, not in government.
Glen says:
“Why have Gillard when we can have Julie Bishop”
Julia is better value. Ms Bishop is very good at delivering prepared lines but generally poor at thinking on her feet. Her debating tends to be very wooden (and a little spooky).
With Rudd only 50, I can;t see anyone in the ALP taking over from him who is older. So that would rule out (from the Cabinet):
Swan (53)
Smith (51)
Tanner (51)
Macklin (52)
Carr (52)
Ferguson (53)
Of the these only Smith I think is any real chance (Tanner will join the list of wannabe Treasurer with Julia)
Of the under 50s we have:
Julia (46)
Burke (38)
Fitzgibbon (49)
Roxon (40)
Albanese (44)
McLelland (49)
Albanese, McL and Fitz are no chance. Burke I think is the smokey.
The outer Ministry has a heap of under 50s (and given Kate Ellis broke PJKs record for youngest Minister….)
And of course the parl secs…
Combet (49)
Shorten (40)
Wooden like Gillard’s tone of voice?
I hardly think Julie’s debating skills are questionable considering she is a lawyer.
When’s the last time Julia has had to think on her feet?
Also when is the ALP Junket going to Bali? Are they there yet? Is Greg Hunt going too?
“However, Gillard was Brumby’s chief of staff during his period as Opposition Leader, not in government.”
So wot.
If Kevin Rudd was run over by a bus, who would take over as PM?
Julia Gillard from the Left?
Wayne Swan from the Right?
Lindsay Tanner from the Left?
Someone else?
Juila Gillard is at best 50-50 to become prime minister after Rudd. I dont think the Labor right would be pleased and the socialist left is not guaranted to support her either. In my opinion Swan, Smith and Roxxon are just as likley to suceed him as julia.
Glen you forget Gillard is also a lawyer.
“In 1986, she graduated from the University of Melbourne with arts and law degrees and, the following year, joined the law firm Slater & Gordon at Werribee, working in the area of industrial law. In 1990, she was admitted as one of their first women partners.”
If Kevin was hit by a bus – Gillard would be elected PM un-opposed.
Gillard is clearly the heir apparent at present. Whether she can maintain that position for the nine years or so that Rudd will stay in the job if he keeps getting re-elected remains to be seen.
“Is Greg Hunt going too?”
Yes, he is.
Even though he has no actual work to do there.
Rudd’s succession is completely open. If he is there for 2+ terms, Bill Shorten could succeed him.
Glen @ 27:
Looks like Bali is going to be a flop HURRAY!
Glen, I don’t know what you’re cheering about, nor do I know where you’re getting your information from. All that’s happened, as far as I can see, is that the parties are moving into what will become their negotiating positions, with Rudd refusing to make firm commitments off the top of his head. Would you be happier if he had?
Also, given that Bush has so little effective time to go as leader in the US, the next round of negotiations will be different. The Japanese leadership is looking dodgy as well, so I wouldn’t be celebrating too loudly just yet.
Besides, I find it disturbing to think that you’d see the entire exercise in partisan political terms, esp given that a significant element of the Libs wd have been there if the WA MPs (such paragons of enlightenment as they are!) hadn’t jacked up and elected Horatio.
Spiros,
Looks like speedos and drinks with umbrellas for Hunt. Who won the election anyway!
Greg Hunt will waffle about tree clearing – Visit some Kuta shops, get lots of T-shirts and DVDs.
Get his hair braided and fingernails painted. He may even get a taste for Bintang.
I’ve never been a fan of Greg Hunt. His brother is much better value.
Spiros
Is his brother Mike?
Got it in one!
I thought it was Rex, oh well, back to nursing my hangover.
Their little brother is called Stunnink.
Is anyone else still finding it hard to realise that when you see a headline such as “PM disguted by..” or “PM refuses to be drawn…” that it is not about Howard?
I still find my first reaction when I see a headline with “PM…” is to wonder what issue is Howard trying to wedge the ALP on now.
You’re not the only one, Grog. Not that I mind. Each time I realise that the Prime Minister is Rudd, not Howard, it brings another smile to my face.
Reminds me of the anecdote of when Bracks was first elected in 1999. The radio reported that their was a leadership crisis and the Victorian Opposition was in disarray. Brumby rushed into Bracks office with the opening line of “What’s going on, Steve?”, and then stopped in his tracks and started laughing as he realised that the reports were talking about the Liberals.
You’ll get used to it!..
Grog
Yep, I have the same reaction when I listen to the news and they say the Prime Minister, tense up, then they say Kevin Rudd, breathe out relax, give a little smile.
Still taking a while to sink in.
GG
I think Glen is suffering from “What’s going on Steve” when he hears reports about the opposition in disunity he then follows up a post on how it is falling apart for Rudd!
William nuke 87.
I am still getting used to PM Rudd, if it takes a while for it to sink into my rusted on Labor mind – imagine the pain for the opposition?
Absolutely guys. I am always going to refer to Rudd as the P.M. or PM Rudd from now on.
What about when Australia win in sport. It’s going to make us more proud now, especially given that their wont be a dessicated coconut around where he is not wanted.
Yes, Centre, I absolutely loathed having Howard on stage at the NRL Grand Final; it took a bit of the shine out of Melbourne Storm winning the 2007 NRL Premiership.
By the way, the right direction was 60%, wrong direction 15.5%, with the rest uncommitted in that Morgan poll.
Rudd being PM still hasn’t sunk in with me yet. I’ve got the same feeling as when I had to study for ages to pass an exam. Even after passing, I kept waking up worrying about what I was going study that day. It’s like having Damocles’ sword taken away from hovering over your head. The Rodent really has scarred me.
the removal vans at kirribilli today will make it that little bit easier for the truth to sink in
Grog & Charlie, It’s a common reaction around here as well. Initial arc up, then grin like crazy. I’ve taken to saying to all similarly afflicted, “Who’s the PM?” every so often just for the entertainment value!
What the hell’s the story with Morgan? They’re just making it up! Do they enjoy being a laughing stock?
Clearly people are parking their votes. Come the election they’ll think about it a little more (lest they be sleepwalking, of course).
I meant with the “Roy Morgan Government Confidence Rating”. WTF
Higher electricity prices? That[’ll sure please the working families.
Who’s the PM, Diogenes?
If there is a by-election, nominations will be opened in the usual way. So if the Libs wanted to ditch Bailey and run someone else, they could. I very much doubt there will be a by-election. If the recount confirms Labor’s win, the Libs will probably decide to take their lumps. Despite the mixed precedents, I think they know they’d get creamed.
If Labor does finish up winning the seat by 6 votes, that will be closest House of Reps result ever allowed to stand, beating 7 votes at Werriwa in 1914. (The two closer results, 5 votes in Riverina in 1903 and 1 vote in Ballaarat in 1919, were voided in court). In percentage terms Mitchell’s margin would be 50.00309, also the closest ever, beating 50.007 at the Griffith by-election of 1939.
For those interested Landeryou has more goss about McEwen.
http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/2007/12/so-close-then-there-were-five.html
James J, It’ll depend an awful lot on the policy settings on a range of things as to whether higher prices for energy eventuates and the impact of price shifts on voting behaviour. I think that most of what I’ve read indicates the most people now “buy” climate change and that it is being adversely affected by human activity. If the Federal, and for that matter, the synergy now available between Federal and State/Territory level works reasonably well, there are solutions available that could actually bring energy prices down. And wouldn’t working families just love that?
If the world is serious enough and does cure the planet from global warming, the only thing that I will regret is that sea levels will not rise sufficiently enough to put all those liberal voting coastline wentworth residents under water.
With Australia being involved in talks with other nations on climate change, it makes Coconut seem even more out of touch now, if that was possible.
87 GG – great story.
Obviously this Morgan poll is an outlier. 41.5% for the Libs is much too high.
Centre
When we take our place at the table, we can and will become the world leaders on the issue and we will indeed lead by example.
Kirribilli Removals took his/her own sweet time to turn up, but very satisfying that Hyacinth and the Prime Monster, who’s legacy shall be mud in the mouth of his folllowers, are now re-located out of the $17 billion waste of their occupancy.
107 Are you sure? Last I heard they were still in situ
Although “in situ” may not quite be right given it refers to the original position… (though I like this definition: “Referring to a rock, fossil, or other object found in the exact location or natural position in which it was formed or deposited.”)
108. Harry’s right, tonight on the ABC news there was a nice shot of Kirribilli Removals at the wheel of his very fine van as his henchpersons loaded up. I think I saw someone tottering out of the stately mansion holding a white flag.
Adam, It would seem that reality is still sinking in for the LNP, as for some of us. I thought that Fran Bailey was about to burst into tears this afternoon when I heard her interviewed. Then, there was that classic Lib. position of blaming someone/something/anything. Oh yes, it must be the AEC. Couldn’t be that I lost. I’m going to take much pleasure in identifying adjustment disorders with any number of complications over the next wee while among the hapless NLP. Normally, I’m a ‘noice’ person, brought up to abide by the old dictum of “win without bombast, and lose without rancour”. On this occasion, nah!
‘PM disgusted by …’ in today’s headlines was pure Howard. I despair that we’ll ever get back to politicians confining themselves to policy in their own domain, or at least things they know about, instead of moralising on every social issue a dull journalist throws their way.
As odd as it is to see Rudd and Gillard at the helm, I don’t expect most people will notice the difference for some time.
Paradoxically however, Howard was so impotent for the last a year or more, that it is also not easy to think of him as PM either.
110
First the wine, then the silverware and now the linen?
But he hasn’t conceded yet!
I’d like to see him taken out in a Chesterfield Chair.
Yep, off to the old shack they have been transported, minus, of course, Hyacinth’s fingernails, which will be forever, embedded in the floorboards leading OUT.
Graeme, who’s the PM? (See earlier for this remedial intervention).
112 Graeme the difference is Howard would have suggested the Federal Govt taking over responsibility for sentencing, or deciding to make Cape Yorke part of Nairu.
The good thing is the ALP wedges will be on lefty stuff like Climate Change. Howard’s wedges were invaribly challenges to the ALP to be uncaring or downright mean. Rudd will wedge the Libs into being nice
Good to see news ltd is holding firm:
ABC: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/10/2114879.htm
Garrett, Kerry discuss US stance on climate change
news.com: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22900223-23109,00.html
Garrett dodges climate change questions
112 graeme. I have the same trouble with Bob Hawke. Was he really PM? Keating, I can remember with clarity and fondness, but Bob? Nah. Didn’t happen.
scaper 106
we will be a world leader??? we have signed up for kyoto for 5 minutes, are among the world’s worst polluters and no set targets for 2020. we have a long long eway before we are involved, let alone being a leader. European countries and New Zealand are lading the charge. We are more like a rookie yet to play a game.
Deano
We might be the rookies….but please give it some time.
You might be impressed.
Interesting to see Rudd “disgusted” by a lenient sentence in a rape case involving an aboriginal community in far north Qld. Expect to see much more of this positioning. Despite the many achievements of the Hawke/Keating era, and despite coming out the other side of a recession still in power, Keating was thrashed by Howard. Why? One reason was that he was a foul-mouthed arrogant pr@ck. The other was that he was seen by socially conservative working-class voters in the outer suburbs and regional cities as a guy that had an elitist agenda (aboriginal reconciliation, the republic) which either was irrelevant to their lives or which they were actively hostile to. Rudd will not fall into this trap. I certainly expect and hope we will indeed see progress on both aboriginal reconciliation and the republic in time, but Rudd will keep making statements like this to avoid the wedges on these kinds of issues I’m sure the Libs will still try running. It may be unpalatable to leftists on this site to see this stuff coming from Rudd, but it’s necessary.
Par Mod,
as a confirmed leftist let me say that so far
I am impressed.
Rudd has ratified Kyoto,(targets are another thing, but it’s a start), committed to a formal apology to Indigeneous Australians, promised to close down Nauru Torture Centre for Refugees, allowing tose that are already processed the decency of coming ashore and promising to speed up the process for those waiting.
If he cans the pulp mill in Tassie and has a rethink on uranium mining, I’m going to nominate him as the next leader of the Greens.
Dear Kevin,
Love you to bits. I’m so delighted you’re the PM. I even appreciate your fondness for Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Just one thing….when a reporter throws a question at you about a crime you know nothing about…Shut Up! You’re the Prime Minister! You’re also an intelligent man. You don’t have to switch into red neck mode and rant about ‘zero tolerance’. It doesn’t matter how heinous the crime appears to be. Take your time; get the facts, and at least have the sense to read the case and the judge’s remarks before passing your own judgment….or you just look like a goose (actually Kevin, I’ve noticed your neck disappears entirely into your collar when you pontificate on matters you’re unfamilar with. It’s not a good look – so stop it! Anyway, enjoy Bali. You’ve made us all proud. Love & kisses…FG
BTW-
shouldn’t Rudd be disgusted by an Australian judge finding that a 10 year old could consent to sex with 9 men?
I think most of us are – forget wedge politics.
What Rudd said about that case was just common sense, I would have thought.
Also, as PM, Rudd has to comment on stuff all the time. Whether he’s involved or not.
What if he’d said nothing about the case – it becomes “PM silent on rape of ten year old girl”, or whatever. His instincts in this matter, as so often, were spot on.
FG,
I think Rudd should comment on this case without knowing All The Facts as such. The outstanding fact is that 9 men raped a ten year old. What the f(k else is there to know?
I am proud (remember that feeling?) that an Australian leader would condemn, without any legalistic BS, something so heinous.
If only such respect for human rights had guided the government of the last 11 years.
On the theme of Prime Ministerial comments more generally, one of the reasons it’s such a hard job is that PMs do get put on the spot all the time – Rudd’s minders would hardly have prepared him for that question, would they?
jen,
I doubt if Howard would have said anything different to Rudd about that particular case.
The problem Jen is that legal cases are extremely complex things, and judges, by and large are not idiots. To pass comment based solely on what is reported in the press (which is often misleading or just plain wrong) is not wise. All I’m saying is get the facts – then pass comment. What I read in today’s press made me angry, but as a lawyer I’ve learned not to trust the spin from the press. It’s an odd judgment based on what the press has told us. I’m also curious as to why the Crown recommended the action taken by her honour. The Qld AG has sought a report from the DPP and, based on that, he will determine whether to appeal. I’ll be interested to read the judgment.
Hello Jen. Great to hear that Rudd is keeping both his left-leaning and social conservatve followings happy! In the end, it’s the actions that matter, not the spin and images. And Howard’s trawling for votes by stirring hostility to various minorities was the most contemptible thing about him, thank God that’s gone. But I’m not sure which direction a re-think on uranium mining should take us. Global warming is probably the greatest problem our species (and all the others!) faces, and nuclear energy could be part of the solution. There are massive challenges with waste, cost, decommissioning old plants, potential use in weapons-but is it not true that it is an energy source which will emit very little carbon? Stuff like burying CO2 from coal underground is a fantasy, and from what I’ve read wind and solar can’t generate enough power to allow coal-fired stations to be closed. So where will the electricity come from?
I’ve made a small number of posts here in the last 6 weeks but have generally been silently and compulsively lurking here and at Possum’s site. I’ve also sent William and Possum a few offline emails to which I’ve had the nicest responses.
We made our first ever small corporate donations to Maxine, Mike Bailey in North Sydney, to Andrew Campbell in Menzies (who was a looooong shot to rid Australia of the pustulous boil Kevin Andrews) and to the ACT Greens Senate campaign. (We only won 1 in 4, but you need to take a stand.) We had a fabulous hand-written personalised response from Maxine (I bet some of you are jealous!) and two great conversations with Mike Bailey and Andrew Campbell.
These are people I’d be privileged and happy to be in a room with.
I wouldn’t want to be in the same room with misfits like Abbott, Abetz (Abbott doubled), Ruddock, Kevin Andrews, Bronwyn Bishop and similar and I sincerely hope they soon vanish up or down a plughole into the past.
I’d like to thank and congratulate William and Possum for their extraordinary efforts. I love the way both these blokes think and write.
I particularly commend both of them for their gut-driven stances against racist drivel.
I’d also like to thank Adam and Antony Green for blogging as much as they did.
My vote for best citizen blogger goes to “Kirribilli Removals” but there are a number of other contenders that saw the election from all sorts of perspectives including Basil Fawlty, Grace Pettigrew, Ruawake, Julie and many many others.
I hope we don’t descend into wallowing about whether Possum got it wrong: Possum was the bloke who kept something like 60% of pollbludgers sane in the last few days of the campaign. Not only should he get a Nobel Prize via Adam (sorry, too lazy to link) but he should be given an award by the Australian Health Department!
Thanks to all of you bludgers and particular thanks to William and Possum. I hope everyone in this particular part of the blogosphere doesn’t exhaust themselves in recriminations and claims to psephological superiority. We won, damn it, and none of us are actually very much the wiser why we did.
Finally, a comment on the trolls: there was one manifestation/shift of Glen who was interesting and brave though he/she occasionally succumbed to racism. Most of the others I have the sort of contempt for that I have for Kevin Andrews. These include ESJ, “Generic Person” – whatever that idiot moniker means – and Stephen Kaye.
Happy Christmas everyone! We’re rid of the rodent! Rejoice! These sorts of shifts will only happen a few times in your lifetime, so enjoy it.
I don’t like that margin in McEwen. After the margin in Bass was 0.04% after the 1993 election, the AEC decided in future to publish all margins to two decimal places. (Just publishing the close ones to two didn’t seem to be to their liking) I hope that McEwen doesn’t encourage them to publish all margins to three decimal places.
But Antony, you’re the most numerate soul in the country. If you can’t handle 3 decimal places what hope have the rest of us got? Are you still tipping that the Libs will want to avoid a by-election in McEwen.
Surely they’ll avoid a by-election!
But the re-count’s not over yet – how long will that take?
In the case of McEwen, .001 corresponds to a single vote. It’s a silly level of accuracy, as is 2dp which would be only 10 votes. As to tipping whether there will be a by-election, I’m just saying you shouldn’t assume there will be one. My political advice would be to let the result stand as my gut feeling is the government will have quite a honeymoon period. The Coalition will be having a few months of introspection, never a good time to engage in a by-election.
133/PH…well said, its good night from me and good night from…
133 PH,
Hear, Hear!
Antony,
Can you clarify whether, as most seem to assume, that the Libs have the option not to run Fran Bailey for their candidate in the event of a by-election?
Agree with FG at 124. The PM should not join this hue and cry (Bolt’s blog has already gone predictably ballistic and its a very unpleasant read). Of course we are all horrified by child rape. We do not need the PM to tell us what we already know. He should rise above the emotional turmoil and counsel calm analysis and encourage legal resolution.
Problem coming over the horizon if this “national outcry” is allowed to run wild is the character assassination and career destruction of the judge involved (see Bolt), not to mention the impossibility of a lasting resolution for the child and her community.
The culture warriors at the Oz are right now hammering out their rage at our pomo relativist leftie judicial elite, providing acres of gruesome and prurient detail about child rape in aboriginal communities, and ensuring once again that real change is postponed while we deal with this present emergency. And it should shift quite a few newspapers for the next few days.
Dyno at 127: “His instincts in this matter, as so often, were spot on.”
I don’t agree, Dyno. It reminded me of Howard’s instincts.
Plus the funds are a little low in the Liberal camp according to the word on the street. Might be better to keep them for future battles that are on the horizon which they can win (like Higgins). They don’t want to fight more by-elections then they have to at the moment.
Jen
Rudd is also holding COAG on 20th, 5 days before Xmas, first such meeting since Howard days to be held outside Canberra.
All state, territory and federal leaders plus treasurers, main agenda to tackle health, education and housing.
The bloke does not muck about and Australia is quite lucky in that most of the leaders and treasurers are reasonably competant as Rudd said the blame game stops and working to find solutions and fixes starts.
Pip at 140: without wishing to gazump Antony’s response, it might be worth observing that the Court of Disputed Returns orders a “fresh” election, not a “by-election”. Its an interesting use of terminologys, suggesting that the whole pack of cards is thrown up into the air, and anyone can nominate.
Grace,
Many thanks. As always, you are a fountain of information.
A new writ will be issued for a by-election and anyone who wants to run can nominate. And no one who previously nominated has to run. In other words, Fran Bailey doesn’t have to be the Liberal candidate.
I already told you that. *Sulks*
‘Onya, Antony!
Some people might be interested in a new development: a Green Liberal Party
http://www.grunliberale.ch/index.htm
They won three seats in the recent Swiss elections. They reject the leftism of the official Greens on non-environmental issues.
Listening to Radio National today, Samantha Maiden (I think) nominated Michael Ronaldson to “be the next John Faulkner” – i.e. during Senate estimates. Given I have only seen him play the role of Fierrevanti-Well’s wingman in her attack on the ABC and SBS, I shudder at the thought.
grace pettigrow,
the problem appears to be that the “legal resolution” is clearly not working. I am not advocating for any action to be taken outside the legal process, but when it fails ( as it does on occasions) then we all have a right to speak out. Including, and especially, our leaders.
Perhaps one of the most disturbing legacies of Howard and Co. is that it is hard to have any faith in the legal processes of this country,as we watched helplessly as one human rights abuse after another, one cover-up after another, one deception and spin after another allowed terrible acts to take place in our country.
These range from the despicable teatment of refugees, involvement in a questionable war with the loss of life of perhaps hundreds of thousands, the deportation of citizens and innocent migrants, the blatant land-grab of indigeneous people and the wedging of racism for political gain.
That is why i am relieved to hear a clear unequivicle statement from Rudd about this case.
These men pleaded guilty to the gang rape of a ten year old. The judge says she may have consented. What’s to discuss???
Sometimes i despair at lawyers.
Adam, ich can nicht diesen website verstanden!
Parra Mod
The argument with renewables is generally that it can’t produce baseload power, which is to say that it can’t produce a constant, reliable stream of power due to fluctuations of the elements.
While it is true that an individual solar panel or wind turbine will not necessarily be producing power at a given time, spread across a network, the level of output is surprisingly reliable. Renewables like geothermal, biomass and wave are entirely reliable.
It should also be factored in that coal is actually far too constant in its output. By necessity, a coal plant produces the same output day or night. Renewables fit much better to the curve of power use. There is no reason that renewables cannot be the sole source for new capacity, including replacement for non-renewable plants at the end of their life, for the next few decades. Beyond that time, the ‘baseload’ options will be mature and who knows what else will be coming up.
Alas, Adam, it pains me to say that your post @ 101 did not quite pass my “emphatic” test on that point about the party nominations.
You see, “emphatic” is now my #1 top adjective since the MSM settled on it to describe Team Rudd’s margin of victory. :>)
Are you proposing that we lynch the judge, jen? OK, you say you are not proposing any action outside the legal process. But who says its not working? Have you lost faith in the law after only a decade of Howardism?
I am not objecting to any reporting of the facts, and I am not suggesting that people should not be outraged, but I am advocating that PM Rudd do more than just express his. He has a country to lead.
Don’t despair Jen. I’m sure we share your anger and disgust at what appears to have happened. But allow us a lawyer’s caution at wanting to check the facts (rather than relying solely on the press) before reaching a conclusion regarding this case.
grace p
as I previously stated I do not advocate any action outside the judicial process. This includes the lynching of judges. ‘
what I am trying to say is that yes, after a decade of Howard who stacked benches, and passed legislation that would do the KGB proud I have less faith in the judicial process in this country than I feel comfortable about.
What gives me great hope however, is that i know that many lawyers are themselves uncomfortable with the direction we have been heading in and I expect that much will change in the future.
in the meantime I take comfort from the fact that our new PM (whom I don’t particularly like by the way), is honest enough to say what he really thinks.
Cheers.
Fair enough jen
Grace, I do like the way you write….and I’m just making a list of the judges I wouldn’t mind lynching
FG, lol, and it looks like one sydney judge known for speeding away from restaurants is in the process of getting lynched…
Graeme at 112
‘PM disgusted by …’
Shuddered. Howard reaction immediate. Just looked at the reference, equally annoyed to realise it was Kevin. Totally agree, just stay out of the minutae, not that my term intends to diminish the gravity, but leave it, Kevin.
If it is up to anyone at all to pass comment, it should be confined.
Not to a Minister, even. And it is a State matter. I detest the way in which Mike Rann bandwagons on to any judicial/parole decision in my State, highly dubious behaviour, which should be left to the DPP or appropriate authority.
Passing comment on matter which may yet be appealed, to say the least, is absolutely inappropriate.
And Kevin must be careful not to earn the show pony exhaustion we experienced under Howard. We are still very sensitive to such constant intrusion.
So Kev should be very careful and keep his mouth shut! On matters not his.
Yes it’s all a bit disheartening when our judicial betters let the side down. He has clearly missed out on my professional ethics classes….being in NSW and all.
grace and FG,
I’m afraid I struggle to share your faith in the legal system! I don’t think our adversarial system really advances the cause of justice all that effectively.
I accept that we don’t know all the facts in this case. But I think there are plenty of cases that are decided more on who had the best lawyer, rather than who had the best case. I think that, on the whole, the general public’s scepticism about the system is well-founded.
Crikey Whitey, considering the issues swirling around the NT intervention, it is clearly a national issue when a judge makes such an appalling decision… especially in an indigenous community.
CW @ 161,
PMs don’t have much choice but to comment on matters such as this. It’s one of the demands of the job.
21 Nastro-doom-us Isn’t the future looking great! No more Ratus. Yeah!
Dyno at 163, yep, some of what you say is probably true. The law is a human creation, with human faults. Its a work in progress. But its all we have to keep the dogs of barbarism at bay.
Well, actually, having delivered that bit of rage, I listened to Christian Kerr on Philip, nothing to do with this matter, but it did occur to me that it was to do with linking the indigeneous outrageous matters, and it did concern Queensland.
A few outrageous matters have occurred in other States, on which comment has not been passed.
Dyno, I understand the public perceptions. As one who works within the legal system you’ll understand if my view is a little different. There are undoubtedly some cases where the better lawyer won. In the vast majority of cases, however, the best interpretation of the available facts is what decides who wins. As I said earlier, judges are not idiots and it takes more than a clever lawyer to get the better of most of those on the bench. I am not blind to the weaknesses of our legal system (and spend a great deal of my time in trying to improve it), but by and large it’s the best legal system on earth and I am privileged to work with many lawyers who share a passion for justice and are determined to work towards achieving it in the system we have.
Yes a judge may have made an impalling decision but do we know all the facts- the whole story or is it a case of the media going berserk as usual and a prime minster doing the same.
There’s always the benchmark John Laws conviction when the judge decided he was too rich to fine and too famous to give a custodial sentence.
Crikey Whitey you are spot on, to me Rudd should have shut his mouth. Early days but Rudd to me will be a nothing Prime Minister.
gp @ 167,
Not against those ideas at all. Our system of law is fantastic, compared to most systems that have ever existed in human history.
But (as I hope you’d agree) we shouldn’t stop pushing our judges and lawyers to do better.
I was interested in the comment earlier (by you or FG) that the prosecution recommended the course of action the judge took. If that’s right, it would definitely be worth hearing more about why.
165. I agree with Grace and FG, he should avoid making judgments until he’s properly briefed. PMs surely have a choice of sounding off or counselling patience. And I know the latter plays into tabloid hands, but Bolt et al rely on short-term shock which often dissipates as events play out.
Dyno at 165.
I must disagree. By and large. In my view it is not the job of any PM to discourse on every matter in the public domain.
They have a larger job.
Notwithstanding what I said about the particularity, in this case.
Ta, Marky Marky.
Always appreciated.
Yes, a toxic amalgam there is to be addressed by the new government. From Telstra/ Sol and the 3 amigos telling the new government to stick it in relation to the broadband roll out, to the very nasty and difficult problems posed by climate change. Nevertheless, the Ruddster has taken off at a cracking pace, and geez, some of the women are frankly phenomenal.
33 Glen A pole before the election said, number one politician everyone wanted to baby sit their children: Julia Gillard. The politician everyone wanted to invite to tea as a guest: Peter Garret. That’s why the Liberals lost because they were out of touch with the community. And they still don’t know.
42 Gippslander Bairnsdale Hospital or Gippsland Base at Sale?
PS Drove past a Dyers truck today.
I guess my point really is that the PM is asked for a comment on absolutely everything. He (or she) needs to balance conflicting imperatives: (1) don’t shoot from the hip vs (2) speak for the nation.
I think that in this respect (as in so many others) it’s never an easy job, and I suspect KR will have a few missteps as he gets used to 100% of the spotlight.
But I actually didn’t have a huge problem with what he said today – I think he actually said he was disgusted and appalled by the reports of what had happened, and that he understood the case was being reviewed. Frankly, he spoke for me in saying this.
Broadband and telecommunications now who was idoit who introduced competition in this area, and what does it provide?
And who were the idoits who privatised it?
And who were the idoits who told us that a national broadband network would be easy?
A Kym dud Beazley
B John Howard and his pathetic government
C Rudd and Dudroy and the Labor Party
#170. Is an impalling decision one which appals, or one which deserves impalement?
If Rudd had some courage to his convictions he would have said no comment i will leave that to the Judge and Queensland Government but instead to look like some band wagon jumper or shock jock hero he has to say something, the medias darling boy already or should i say the medias’ love child.
mm @ 183, why do you assume his comments were insincere? What objective evidence is there to support this assumption?
And if his comments were, in fact, sincere, then how do they make him a “band wagon jumper” or lacking “courage to his convictions”?
Just because you don’t agree with his comments, it doesn’t follow that he didn’t mean them.
Rudd would be hailed in voterland as the new Man of Steel if he went to war against the Three Amigos, and Howard’s legacy of botched privatisation, by legislating to nationalise Telstra’s infrastructure, leaving the americans to run the retail business. What fun that would be.
Loved this bit from the Morgan:
Electors were asked: “If a Federal election for the House of Representatives were being held today — which party would receive your first preference?”
Of all electors surveyed, 6.5% did not name a party.
Do they ever decide?
gp @ 185,
It couldn’t happen to a nicer man than Sol if Rudd did that.
172 marky marky Even that is one thousand percent better than the one we had.
Dyno @ 173, yes the prosecution did not ask for a custodial sentence in the case, which is odd. While a judge is not compelled to take the sentencing advice offered by counsel, they do tend to do so. One other thing that interests me is that the judgment was handed down in October and the normal 28 day appeal period is passed. Why did the Qld Attorney-General not seek to appeal the case within the appeal period? As I say, we need to get the facts.
It is not his place to comment on this issue, what he is going to do next comment on issues like what happens on Big Brother or Australian Idol like what Howard use to do. Leave the comments to court system.
But Rudd trying to jump on the populist train has to say something. Did Rudd read the facts of the case or was he present in court, No.
He may well be sincere and have some empathy in regards to it but he should have shut his mouth, simple.
Crikey
That % is not so differnt to teh don’t vote/informal number I suspect, so maybe its fair enough that they not be allocated.
Sums it Ferny Glover, jumping on the media gravy train. Rudd will be governed by pollsters and the media.
190 marky marky Hello, where have you been the last 11.5 years?
According to the ABC:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/10/2114704.htm
‘Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says he is disgusted by the rape of the 10-year-old girl.
He says he is waiting carefully for Mr Shine’s review of the case.
“My attitude to violence towards women and children, including sexual violence towards women and children, is one of zero tolerance,” he said.
“It always has been, it always will be and I await the further deliberations of the Queensland Attorney-General.”‘
I see absolutely nothing reprehensible in such a reaction. And it doesn’t try to influence the review. So, what’s the problem?
As far as our system of justice is concerned, it is recognised that judges and juries make mistakes; that’s what our appeals system is for. And if a guilty person should go free, I’m with Benjamin Franklin: “Better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man hang.”
The PM will be commenting on lots of things – he can’t simply not have opinions and really, this is one way he can define who he is on a more personal level. To not have something to say would be silly – what is important is not to say too much or take it down to too much detail.
He still needs to build a personal relationship with the public and letting them know his take on various things is the way the public will feel they know him and relate to him. This is the loyalty factor – people want to stick to the person they know they know.
Agree Chris B. Lets wait and see, but he’s no Whitlam or Keating.
Right on, Harry ‘Snapper’ Organs 177.
‘Yes, a toxic amalgam there is to be addressed by the new government’.
Grace Pettigrew. Do you read Possums Pollytics? I am pretty sure you do. Instructive. No marky marky types.
A lot goes on there, as Snapper (pardon the familiar, Harry) refers to.
narky marky, give it a rest. You’ve stated your views on Rudd more than once. You may be right, you may be wrong. Give Rudd a decent window of time to provide proof either way.
To labour a point unduly is a turn off and provokes a hostile reaction.
Ask Melb.City.
196 marky marky But you haven’t been waiting.
Kirribilli Removals
Well done!! I just saw your truck at work removing the squatter from Commonwealth property on Sydney’s north shore. Great work! That must have been a very satisfying day at the office. You made us all happy for a day
Normally I’d say all removalists shoudl take care with their clients property but, in this case, I’d say treat your client’s property the way your client treated our democracy
Kina are you for real.
I don’t know where mm has been for the last 11.5 years but I do know that each of the next 10 or so years will be the longest and hardest to bear years in his lifetime.
This Rape case is one of the most sickening decisions in Australian history
but Marky wants to play politics with it.
Fortunately as PM he sent a message to Judges generally on behalf of Aussies
(except the ‘Marky’ liberals) that the decision is unacceptable to the people
198 Fulvio Sammut Good nick name.
Ferny at 131, I’m a bit non-plussed as to why you would take this line. I don’t wish to derail this thread, and more particularly, p*ss William off to the point he bans me, but, for goodness sake, and surely this has something to do with firstly, how a political leader relates to major socio-political-economic events which effect the polity, and secondly, no, bugger it. I’ve got to go back to work tomorrow, despite the allure of poll bludger. William, I love you, and wish you’d just give us a prod when you wanted another fund injection, so I didn’t have to guess. I’m just addicted.
marky marky at 196, peace brother.
ViggoP at 194.
Thanks for that. Did not read article in full before I steamed ahead.
Quite a difference from the unqualified meat and wedge we were accustomed to.
Me playing politics, all you Labor ( inc me) who can’t criticise the party and who take the party line on everything. Didn’t Howard use to comment on things he should not have and now Rudd does it but that’s okay. Hypocrites or what.
Mind you, this has been a little quite in here lately. So maybe a little stirring won’t go a stray.
Viggo – ‘Reprehensible’ is a very strong word. The concern is simply that it is dangerous to pass comment based solely on media reports. The PM really should have delayed comment until he was briefed on the matter. This case has many oddities that I’ve mentioned above and uninformed comment is not helpful to anyone. Nuff said.
See ya tomorrow sometime.
mm you are as much a labor man as the Mad Monk. I just don’t believe you.
3205 bugger, prod, love and injection – all in the one post Harry? I`d be very surprised if William doesn`t ban you outright. Give you a right Cerdicking he should.
Marky has decided already what kind of PM Rudd will make, after just a week. Don’t worry about Kina Marky, are you for real?
Socrates at 200, that’s all very well, but it’s probably our furniture he’s shipping!
I expect the PM and EVERYONE in any Public or business position to speak their
disgust at this decision
The reason Judges have got away with such disgusting decisions in the past
is due to the disgraceful ‘Marky’ attitude….do not criticise Judges
!0 guys admit to raping a 10 year old but the Judicial system will handle it you say
Ferny Glover lets clarify to all those short sighted bloggers, the case was in OCTOBER nearly two months ago and the media shockies get on it now and so does Rudd, right. Put simply why not then and if Rudd was sincere about it why not then to, or is he playing politics and being a populist.
Get it folks OCTOBER and not last week, no doubt Rudd read about it and heard about it in the Media.
Socrates 200
‘Kirribilli Removals Just saw your truck’
Onya, KR. And so late into the work day.
Dedication. Or AWA?
Jen,
The legal solution in every case is for the DPP to lodge an appeal if he or she believes the sentence is unjust.
The solution is not for the red-neck media to pass their own judgment. They can achieve no judicial solution. Either you abide by the legal process available or the law is stomped on by people jumping in with ill-measured responses to a problem they know little about.
All you know is that a 10 year old girl was raped. This does not automatically mean that the accused must suffer any mandatory minimum penalty. The sentencing act requires the court to take into account factors such as general deterrence (deterring others), specific deterrence (deterring these particualr offenders), the potential for rehabilititation, the gravity of the offence and the affect the crime has had on the offender, denunciation of the offence, protection of the community and the offender’s anticedents.
The press fails to report these factors so how can anyone relying solely on the press reports have any hope of knowing what the court took into account in arriving at its sentence. If all you know is that a 10 year old girl is raped, then of course you expect a custodial sentence, because that is a typical outcome in a rape case.
The judge said that it is likely that the girl consented to the conduct. It is trite to say that a 10 year old can not give legal consent. That is not the point. The issue is whether the girl gave consent to the assault in fact, not in law. If the act was done against her will, it would be an aggravating feature of the crime. If it was done with her willing participation, that would be a mitigating factor that the court is entitled to take into account. I do not see the problem with that. Same thing happens in euthanasia cases. If I kill a terminally ill relative with his consent I would be treated quite different to if I had killed someone in a bank robbery. People have long insisted that judges need to take into account the victims of crime, and here we see the judge has taken into account the actions of the victim in arriving at what the judge sees is an appropriate sentence.
If the sentence is outrageous the DPP should appeal. Rudd should tell the press that the matter is in the hands of the DPP and it would be inappropriate for him to interfere in that process.
Hang on, isn’t everything at K House paid for by us? Those two should have been given the Archangel Gabriel treatment.
It doesn’t matter when Rudd heard about it. I heard about it for the first time in the last 48 hours and I am disgusted with the decision. I am pleased that the PM has voiced his disgust at the decision as well. Spin it any way you like mm but Rudd is correct in his comments and he will be supported by the vast majority of ordinary Australians.
Steve and Ron i for one am disgusted by Rape and Voilence, and do not agree with it and if the facts in this case are their then this outrages me, but do we know the facts.
My argument is not about the case it is about a Prime Minister who has jump on the media circus wheel and be a nothing, something which many of you do not get, or wish to think about.
Gary- you must work for the Labor Party because you never say anything against it. Obviously another stick in the mud.
mm says the case was in October so why is Rudd commenting now
Howard was PM in October and if he’d known about it he would have CORRECTLY said he Howard was appalled. So Markey Howard & Rudd did not know then.
you have an indefensible argument
CW at 197: Nope, just stretching my legs here for a while, but thanks for the tip, will have a look.
Calm down people about Rudd’s response. It’s pretty straightforward. You cannot agree if you are ten years old. End of story. Any of the lawyers posting here about the need for caution about the judge’s conclusions, and so forth, just bear in mind you cannot consent when you are ten. Sorry, William fo being off topic, but this is just stupid.
Now i get it Steve the media is the place that provides you all your knowledge and facts and helps bring together all your thoughts into one. A media as shown on media watch which rarely researchs information and rarely tells you all the facts.
Grievance Report.
My neighbour has had his bore water running on his greenest of lawns for two and a half hours.
The footpath is soaked, the road is soaked, the gutter is running.
Kelly, according to the news, the Qld Attorney-General has stated he will appeal the decision. I’m left wondering why it took the media’s belated outcry to prompt this course of action outside the normal appeal period.
The moral crusaders are out tonight.
Comment by serial idiot Dario deleted.
mm says he’s Labor
Rudd would not want his vote for politicising such a tragic case
As for ‘Kelly’ trying to spin some justification for the Judges decision & I quote:
“The issue is whether the girl gave consent to the assault in fact, not in law”
Hello, a 10 year old does not give consent either in fact or in Law
and I reckon 99% of Aussies agree with me
226
marky marky
No you are wrong, you don’t get it at all. I don’t expect you would get it even if you were to try really hard. I still don’t believe you. You’ve never voted Labor in your life.
A ten year old can consent to anything at all. The law says that a 10 year old can not give legal consent anything almost anything at all. But in fact a ten year old can consent to letting her brother ride her bike. Not hard to imagine. Consent is a basic concept. Legal consent is a creation of the law. Lawyers don’t have any problem with the concept. Others seem to. That is why you should not have people who are not judges passing judgment in these sorts of cases. They have no idea what they are talking about.
Crikey 228
Are you in Adelaide like moi? If so, stay angry at bore-water users. It is not even close to sustainable. I saw one hydraulic assessment at a recent conference (engineering sustainability) I attended that estimated that bore water extractions in Adelaide exceeded inflows by a factor of three. It is liquid mining, and liek too much of South australia’s finances, borrowing from the future to pay off a bankrupt past.
agree with you Steve K
lets just forget him …there is a child who deserves better than what some blogers serve up
I don’t think this argument about who does or doesn’t “get it” is going to lead us very far.
Kelly says
That is why you should not have people who are not judges passing judgment in these sorts of cases. They have no idea what they are talking about.
WE THE PEOPLE DO KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOLICITOR/JUDGE
YOU DO NOT
179
Chris B Says:
December 10th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
42 Gippslander Bairnsdale Hospital or Gippsland Base at Sale?
PS Drove past a Dyers truck today.
Bairnsdale hospital. I was wearing a Kevin07 T-shirt when admitted, and was surprised by the generally positive reponse, particularly among the medical staff.
On the Queensland rape case, my first reaction is that anything journalists write sounds very authoritative, unless you happen to know something of the facts. The treatment of the “children overboard” affair is a case in point.
that stated, if the judge did actually say that a ten year old girl can give consent, then I join with Rudd’s disgust. He had to make a comment, and if it turns out that the judge has been misrepresented, I expect he will apologise. For ,folks, I think we at last have a decent man as our PM! (perhaps not quite as saintly as President Bartlett, but quite good enough for us)
Yes, Socrates, I am in Adelaide. Suburban Brighton.
I have referred to this shameful waste, in earlier threads.
And the failure of the Government to do anything about it, apart from forcing producers in the Vale to justify their use.
Apparently, this bore water matter has been a long time subject of ‘consideration.’
Steve K, if i have never voted Labor why do i usually criticise right wingers and their actions. I comment on things which amount to political process and what occurs unlike many on this blog who are straight down the line politically. I am have been to Labor conferences previously and attended Labor meetings at the old Labor headquarters at the back of Trades Hall in Melbourne. Steve continue on with the line though it is a good one. But if you wish to think otherwise fine, but put simply many bloggers see thinks black everytime regarding labor politics and can never have some independant radical streak and that unfortunately to you labor bloggers who absolutely detest me spruiking quacky angst against the party this is what i have.
On “a current Affair” the just retired Vic Supreme Court Judge was asked
why a 24 year old got 2 years for raping an 89 year old woman
HIS ANSWER to the Reporter: you do not understand. The facts vary in each case
This case is a repeat with the appologists for the Legal fraternity defending the
Judge
The big issues and all the facts behind them Ron are always on A Current Affair.
Crikey
If you want to run a story on it, check the proceedings of the SSEE07 engineerign sustainability conference in Perth in October 30 – November 2. One speaker (can’t remember name) gave a paper on hydraulic planning in Salisbury Council. To be fair Salisbury is not at fault; they were at least looking at the issue. Bus IMO SA govts (both sides) have a lot to answer for on past planning failures.
Not to mention acountability. The attitude that we don’t need a corruption commissioner runs deep and poisons public administration. Consider the collapse of the State bank. Three states sent major financial insititutions bankrup then (SA, VIC, WA) but only one sent nobody to jail after frauds costing millions. Us.
I agree Grace. These are immensely fraught situations, and immensely difficult to untangle. They are also very difficult to comment on without raising a whole heap of hackles, and I admire your courage in responding as you have. I also don’t envy the Judge concerned. Given the inspiration you provide I’ll stick my own head up for other people’s target practice, too!
Rudd, I suspect, knows next to nothing about the complexities of such things. He is making judgements based on his own cultural position and on the political impact of the event.
I know nothing whatsoever about the details of this particular case beyond the coverage provided by today’s news bulletins. I do, however, think that certain things need to be acknowledged, whether we like them or not. (I should preface the following by saying that I am, by profession, an anthropologist who has worked in Aboriginal communities for much of the last 30 years)
Firstly, the “age of consent” is not, ethically or legally , some sort of immutable thing that has some sort of “universal” or “natural law” recognition. There are substantial variations “in law” in different states of Australia. In Victoria , for example, apparently “it is a defence if the younger party was aged 10 years or older and the defendant was not more than 2 years older than the younger party”. Similar provisions apply in the ACT. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Australia_and_Oceania).
“16″ is a very common age for permissible sexual intercourse in western anglo-saxon communities these days (and there are no doubt some good intellectual arguments behind this) , but it was not always so, even in Anglo-Australia (where the marriage age was 12 until the late 1800’s) , and it is a significantly older age than one finds in most “traditional” societies in this region (or than in the Anglo-European world in the 1800’s and earlier).
In traditional Aboriginal communities first intercourse for girls generally occurred (and still occurs) at or close to puberty, rather than at any predetermined age. Whether this is “right” or “wrong” goes beyond the questions I am trying to address here, but it is certainly a pertinent fact in the situation.
The current situation is being portrayed by some sections of the media (and given sustenance by Rudd) as ‘violent rape” and yet the same media is suggesting that no actual violence was involved.
It is also being called “gang rape”. There is, in fact, substantial literature dealing with communal sexual intercourse in Aboriginal communities at the time of first intercourse for women in many areas, including north Queensland. I’d suggest that anyone who doubts this has a look at Catherine and Ron Berndt’s ‘Three Faces of Love” (Nelson, West Melbourne, 1976) , or, for the Queensland situation, the work of W.E. Roth in the late 1890’s, or just about any standard Australian anthropological text which mentions Indigenous sexual life. This was not seen by these communities as aberrant behaviour , but simply as the right way for such things to occur.
I stress, I am not raising this to say such things are “right” or “wrong” from my own perspective. I am simply saying that such situations are far more complex than either the media portrayal, or Rudd’s reaction, allow for, and to condemn the judge concerned, or even those involved, “on first principles” is, I think, very short sighted.
Nor am I suggesting that whatever happened in the Aurukun situation was necessarily “traditional”. It seems that some of the men involved were themselves minors, and it is unlikely that this would have been the case in days gone by. Paradoxically, perhaps, age parity (seen as a defence in the laws of some Australian states in such circumstances as mentioned above) would probably have been seen as quite wrong in a traditional context, where a young man’s early sexual partners would often have been substantially older than they were themselves, and where boys in their mid teens would generally not have had any legitimate “rights” of this kind. Equally, it is very unlikely that the community would traditionally have sanctioned sexual activity in a situation where a girl had not yet reached puberty. Whether this was the case in the present situation is not apparent, but she was clearly younger than one would generally have expected in days gone by.
In short, based on the information made available through the media, it is simply not possible to genuinely work out the “rights and wrongs”
Ultimately, though, it seems to me that there has been a very rapid “rush to judgement”, both by the media and by Rudd, in this case. Difficult, complex, situations like this one need to be thought about cooly. Presumably the judge had an opportunity to do just this. We’ve seen politicians jumping in far too vigorously attacking the courts in Australia in recent years. I’d feel much happier if they had a look at the particular Judge’s reasons and the underlying circumstances of the case before they did so!
Thank you, Crikey, for noticing what i think is going to be the most amazing set of policy challenges the world has ever seen. Could be a bummer, could be an upper, but is usually a mix of good, bad and indifferent. So it goes.
“Bailey found two more votes”
This intriguing story in the Age
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bailey-finds-crucial-votes/2007/12/10/1197135341065.html
So a candidate keeps “finding” votes and she is the one complaining? Can someone please explain what tehtime limits are to me, and how it can come to be that the candidates are the ones who find the votes? Is this odd? Is there any pattern on the proportion of late postal votes and the seats where the Libs have caught up? This seems fishy to me, or am I just ignnorant of the process?
Rod thankyou for summing up something so elegantly and beautifully, i could not have done so well. You have described the complexies of this case and stated the problems of it, thankyou.
I think “found” is the past participle, not the active past tense.
Ron, it’s not a matter of ‘defending the judge’. We’re all appalled by attacks on children. But there is some reason why the DPP did not recommend that the judge impose a custodial sentence. We can’t know this reason unless we check the facts. I’ll need to read the judgment rather than relying on press reports.
Rod, I greatly appreciated the anthropological overview.
Kelly at 219, I cannot fault your logic or your application of proper sentencing principles.
But the issue here is not logic or legal principles.
The portrayal, as promulgated in the media, and to this distilled extent a factual portrayal, is that a child of 10 years was raped by a number of males in an aboriginal environment.
This at a time when sexual abuse, alcohol dependency and aboriginality have been interwoven into a toxic, malignant bundle for political purposes by our unlamented former administration, without regard for the welfare or amelioration of anyone’s plight, least of all 10 year old girls, alcoholics or the aboriginal communities.
The story is therefore topical, salacious (to those sick enough to consider it so), appealing to RedNecks, comforting to rascists, deprecating of lawyers and the legal system, and supportive of the stereotypical image of non-WASPs so ingrained in many Australians.
In short, it has all the ingredients of a newspaper selling yarn.
So why are you surprised Kelly? You obviously don’t live in Western Australia where the daily newspaper serve up an endless flow of such bilgewater as it’s version of unquestioned reality.
Rod says
I’d feel much happier if they had a look at the particular Judge’s reasons and the underlying circumstances of the case before they did so!
Ron says:
I am not interested in the Judges decision Rod
The 9 ADMITTED raping a 10 year old
The Judge says the 10 year old probably gave consent
The decision IS appalling
Obviously Rod , Kelly and Marky have open minds on the subject
Fortunately I reckon 99% Aussies will agree with the PM
Gippslander @ 238 – Glad you’re back on deck, and hope something good happens when McGauran goes.
On the subject of media accuracy, I remember working on the memoirs of a prominent Australian who recorded that he had only once in his life NOT been misquoted in the press. The occasion in question was his return to Australia from England, and he was met by a hastily recruited sports reporter from the Sydney Daily Mirror. He speculated that to be a sports reporter, you had to mind your p’s and q’s.
Makes the Libs’ dirt campaign against Rodney Cocks in La Trobe look pretty grubby – personally, I’d never assume that a journalist was more accurate than a participant!
Jenny , I did not read of the Latrobe ‘dirty tricks’
What were they ?…as bad as Lindsay ?
Harry Snapper
Just vaguely caught the tail end of something on what the Papers Say.
About some kind of fair deal for Centrelink victims.
Yes, i agree most will because most Australians cannot think or do not wish to.
The Libs in La Trobe were spreading a rumour that Cocks had embellished his account of his role after the Bali bombings because what he said in his book differed from what a journalist had written at the time. This was after he’d been given a bravery award for his actions. What the Rodent’s team give with one hand …
William, I admire your patience in all of this. Frankly, there are a number of peple, including me, who probably need a saucepan lid applied quite vigorously to they’re noggins, when discussing either polling or politics. Nevertheless, I love comig to visit.
So jenny the Libs tried to ‘dirty’ an Aussie Bali hero
something the ‘oz’ would specialise in
What is the message that the court has sent to young men and women living in aboriginal communities? One of the perpetrators is 26 years of age and the victim just 10 years of age. This is modern Australia?
Jenny you’ve mentioned the Bali dirty tick against Rodney Cocks and we know about the ‘Lindsay’ fiasco
What we do NOT know is whether the Libs cleverly did a dirty trick with postal votes
because the postals increased 50% in 2001 election and the Libs suffered a significantly lower swing against them in marginal seats as against the ordinary vote type swing
Crikey White @ 253 The SMH today ran a big story about how the Department of Workplace etc Relations had been suing the pants off people for minuscule amounts, even when the cases arose from Centrelink errors. Here’s the link” http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/millions-lost-in-fierce-legal-war-on-the-poor/2007/12/09/1197135289361.html
Ron – I agree about the postal votes. They simply have to have better supervision. I can’t see why the AEC shouldn’t just do it all. The current system is simply too open to abuse, but of course none of that was addressed by the lovely Eric Abetz in his crusade to ensure the ‘integrity’ of the electoral roll. Frankly, I don’t think he’d know what integrity was if it bit him on the nose.
William said at the start of this thread that Morgan, which ended its recent poor run at the federal level with a 53.5-46.5 result on the eve of the election.
But a week out from the Election Morgan had it at 54-46
I wonder if they covered their back when Galaxy & Newspoll showed 52-48
because as I’ve bloged earlier there is no reason for the ‘narrowing’
since the last week was a disaster for Howard
Thanks for that link, Jenny.
Had heard something of that story, but somehow tucked behind the ear. The absolute disgrace of the politicisation of Centre Link, and all Government Department’s, is certainly in need of immediate remedy.
Did you catch All in the Mind, on such matters, over the last couple of weeks?
This is a little of which I posted at Possum’s.
‘I would say that analysis of single mothers needs to encompass any number of correlations/variables.
Such as age of youngest dependent as that equals change to Social Security Benefits, leading to stats as regards work participation, use of child care, be it a Centre, home based care, or relatives. Own home, renters private or public.
Not least the strange business of Family Tax Benefits self estimated,
Maintenance payments and the weird attitude of the Department to enforce in favour of the recipient.
I have a good example of the Department’s failure to enforce fair and proper payment. The offender is my brother. Aided and abetted, in my opinion, by the Department, who seem to hold a distinct bias against the (working) sister in law/single now mother. Actually accusing her of being indulgent for having private health cover, whilst seeking her maintenance. And more.
These people have a lot to be angsty about. And for sure, Kevin must come good’.
If that bit I heard on What the Papers Say is any guide, sounds like it’s happening.
Jenny agree with you.Political party’s should NOT send out Postal Applications
and nor with HTV’s
it allows Retirement Villages etc to complete them and subsequently “assist’
the retirees in filling out the actual postal ballot “CORRECTLY” per the Libs HTV
Ron @ 250 says:
I am not interested in the Judges decision Rod
The 9 ADMITTED raping a 10 year old
The Judge says the 10 year old probably gave consent
The decision IS appalling
Obviously Rod , Kelly and Marky have open minds on the subject
Fortunately I reckon 99% Aussies will agree with the PM
I agree with you Ron and the PM
I bet these “open minds” or “condesending, know it all know nothing full of their own importance wankers” as I like to think of them would be singing a different tune if the 10yr old girl was related to them. I bet they wouldn’t be defending the judge saying the kid consented then.
I don’t mind if i get banned by the way, the drivel from marky mark sore lib loser that he is is becoming tedious.
Thank you,Ron. That has been a real beef of mine for years!
Absolutely Vera
One of the rapist of the 10 year old was 26 years
It puts into perspective the blogers here who wish to defend the Judge
ie. the 10 year old gave consent but the 26 year old can not be held responsible
None of these blogers would dare repeat their views to any of their friends
And I really think the whole HTV needs to be revisited. Some independent area where all forms can be quietly collected rather than being swooped on by hordes.
yes Ron and imagine the outrage if she was white!
Glen at 27 you were right … no victory party in Stirling, the Hasluck one was ok but. Although the one I suggested you were most wrong about was Cowan, and you were right there, and Swan, so you found a touch of joy.
So credit where credit is due, I don’t completely understand it but the final numbers had you correct.
Worse than Latham. Interesting but it seems everyone is too lazy to rewrite the Latham history, but Latham did better in WA than Rudd. Let me repeat that, Latham did better in WA than Rudd. So that leaves much, if not all of the Latham was a fruitcake (which almost no-one knew until later) theory looking pretty weak to me. I’m going to say the last election was ALL about interest rates and not about Latham at all.
I’m also going to say, I’m not sure what this election was about.
I dont think people should be attacking Marky Marky with the unsustained abuse that he is a Lib. There is absolutley no evidence to suggest that he is. Just because the guy doesnt cheer on every act of the new government does not make him a Tory voter. I dont agree with the judge’s decision either, but something in me is repelled by politicians, any politicians, yes even Rudd commenting on these things because they feel as if they have to (for political reasons.) They always seem to use the same form of words and it smacks of insincerity even they are indeed sincere. I wish they would just leave it the judicial process.
yes agree Megan. With postals now at 6.50% of the TOTAL vote
Jenny is right , the AEC should be the ONLY ones sending out the Applications
What concerns me is that William did a thread showing Aussie wide the postal swing was significantly lower than the ‘ordinary vote type ‘ swing
BUT the lower swing to the Libs may be even greater in Metropolitan seats
but the size of the lower swing may be flattened by the normal remote postal Lib bias
in which case the Libs did something ‘clever’ with postals
There was a 2.1 per cent swing to Labor in Western Australia at this election. The fact that they won more seats in 2004 can be entirely put down to Graham Edwards.
#
269
vera Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 12:48 am
yes Ron and imagine the outrage if she was white!
Ron says: yep , none of these blogers would dare defend the judge then
hey gary
Glen has been more positive about Rudd than marky mark and at least Glen, bless him, admits to loving his Uncie howie!
#
273
William Bowe Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 12:55 am
There was a 2.1 per cent swing to Labor in Western Australia at this election. The fact that they won more seats in 2004 can be entirely put down to Graham Edwards.
As usual William found the answer
I suspect that WA parochialism re the alleged effect work choices abolition would have on THEIR mining boom reduced Labor’s swing in Perth seats
Interestingly , Labor polled well in WA mining towns where workers WERE on AWA’s
William , is my possible theory in #272 got any semblance of validity ?
Crikey Whitey @ 263 Looks as if the secretary of that department has already been ‘offered’ a sideways move, so there might be a change in the culture coming up.
They’ve always been pretty awful. I once watched a lawyer acting for the old Social Security dept arguing for a custodial sentence against a woman who had inadvertently understated her income and been unable to pay they money back because she was supporting two teenage daughters. Came to the conclusion that you’d have to be lower than a snake’s belly to work as a Social Security prosecutor. And that was under Keating. It seems to have got much, much worse in recent times, though.
yes jenny , Howard created an unhealthy culture in the Federal Public Service
indirectly via policy and directly via political appointments
eg. the lady ‘workchoices Manager’ who fronted the work choices ads
It will take a long time via retirements/ transfers etc. to restore integrity
Hey, Nigel Scullion makes Rudd look like a piker – he wound up in a Russian strip club, undressed down to his jockeys and handcuffed to a pole … Great start for his deputy leadership of the Nats. Perhaps this was what Vaile meant by generational change …
http://news.theage.com.au/coalition-mp-visited-russian-strip-club/20071211-1g8w.html
could have been worse !
fancy a photo of the 70 year old Nats leader Truss down to his jockeys and handcuffed to a pole
socrates 234 and crikey 228.
I’m in Adelaide too. I rent a place with lawns front & back. As much as I drop subtle hints about the drought and having the most boring front yard in street, the landlord loves his lawn- he loves mowing it, whipper snippering it chucking crap on it etc etc. think he hangs out at bunnings a lot. last I heard he’s bringin round a few more rolls of turf “to fill in the dead bits” ah christ??
Theres a bore with a pump and sprinklers built in, i rarely use it. 10 years people will be wanting to know what happened to that groundwater. Anyway in my box of car spares i found a flanged hose perfect size to hook up the garden hose to the washing machine so the lawn has this sorta splotched affect now.
Oh FFS! I’m really tired of polls now. Can’t we all just give it a rest for the next two years?
This will be it. What the Papers Say. Phoned the ABC, who said SMH.
All guns firing, Michael Raper leading the charge. Also spoke on All in the Mind, as elsewhere.
Pursuit of poor under review
Debra Jopson and Adele Horin December 11, 2007
* Pension refused after years of pain
* Tenant takes on giant and wins
THE Rudd Government has announced a review of the way the workplace relations department handles litigation against welfare recipients following the Herald’s revelations of an aggressive legal campaign against the nation’s poorest people.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pursuit-of-poor-under-review/2007/12/10/1197135376014.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Topic I refer to is now being discussed, Tony Delroy, 891.
cobber at 282
Exactly what the neighbour does. Waters, fertilises, grows, mows.
Unceasingly. Sometimes he mows my and others decrepit patches of weeds, on the footpath.
But when it suits. Not that I ask, but I once called him the Mayor, of the suburb. All agreed, merely resigned to the obvious. He did, in fact, as a youngster, live with his parents in my very own house.
He planted all the lawns in the street. Well fine, and that was then.
Anyway, I am not targetting him, apart from the waste. He is elderly, it is his thing.
If the Government put some rules in place, he would comply.
No question. He does what he does, because it is permitted.
I heard Comrade Jenny Macklin has announced yet another Rudd authorised talk fest to discuss how to water down Mal Brough’s NT intervention. This is just more PC rubbish from Labor, they don’t understand that being soft on abuses in aboriginal communities is just what brought us to this point in the first place. Unsurprisingly i expected as much from Rudd and co and he enjoys his Junket in Bali.
As far as im concerned if Rudd can’t maintain the prosperity of Australia gifted to him by Unca Howie and Deputy Dawg then he wont deserve a second term, not that he wont win but that he wont deserve it.
As time goes by I’m growing to like Nelson more and more Turnbull is power hungry and supposedly aloof but as much as you think he’s a tougher politician for Rudd to face he hasn’t performed really well in QT and would bring the ALP and the Tories so close together that what would be the point?
Jasmine, Cowan and Swan and Stirling as Tory hold/gains and Hasluck loss were the only predictions i got right. What is disturbing is that should the Libs either lose McEwen in a recount or by-election as is more likely than a Tory win, Western Australia will have 11 Liberal MHRs the same number of Victorian Liberal MHRs.
I dont think the Tories can do much worse in Victoria except say losing LaTrobe what a shambles we are in Victoria, well at least for 2010 we are coming off a low base
Nite all
Glen 288
Jenny Macklin talk fest to discuss how to water down Mal Brough’s NT intervention
Excellent! Any link?
Rudd.. then he wont deserve a second term, not that he wont win.
Excellent. Prescient!
I’m growing to like Nelson more and more Turnbull is power hungry..
Excellent! Make sure you keep Turnbull on the outer.
Cowan and Swan and Stirling as Tory hold/gains and Hasluck loss were the only predictions i got right.
Excellent. Better luck with Nelson.
What a shambles we are in Victoria.
Excellent.
Achievement Score, Glen. Most Improved.
Nite all.
crikey the scarey thing is my landlords not elderly he’s young and hes a cop!!
gotta sleep now, nite.
sorry to disappoint some
but MM was known as Fonz on ozpolitics -please ignore this ”concern” troll
Ron at 275: “…and imagine the outrage if she was white…none of these blogers would dare defend the judge then”
Sorry Ron, but you have missed the point in your haste to impute racist motives to those of us who have criticised PM Rudd’s declaration of personal outrage.
We have been defending the Rule of Law, and by extension, the right of the judge not to be publicly lynched by a pack of baying media hounds.
Let’s have the all the facts about the prosecution of this case and then let the law take its course in correcting what might, or might not, be a miscarriage of justice.
And perhaps PM Rudd should make no further comments on this case, just as he remained silent while lawyers did their best to secure a just outcome for Dr Haneef, in the teeth of government manipulation and interference.
FWIW, Glen, “Unca Howie” is a terrible name. Who has ever referred to anyone as “Unca”?
Why was this Tory Politician dressed like Malcolm Fraser and handcuffed to a tree?
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/coalition-mp-stripped-and-handcuffed-to-pole/2007/12/11/1197135406309.html
William… do you think Labor would’ve won Cowan at this election had Graham stayed? I’m not so sure. I think it would’ve been a lot tighter… but may still have gone Liberal. If Labor can work hard on WA for the next federal election hopefully they can win a few more seats. Canning should be a lot tigher than it is. Let’s hope Don Randall retires at the next election, although why anyone would want to vote for him is beyond me.
William I take your point. But how does Graham explain anything, indeed how do you differentiate between Cowan and Swan?
Or indeed how Keenan could possibly have survived in Stirling if personal factors are considered the key issues.
Pacific Solution abolished. Another Rodent turd flushed in minutes.
Its important to celebrate these milestones in the systemtatic and speedy erasure of Howard’s political legacy.
Oh yes, and of course, reinstatement of permits on Aboriginal land, and CDEP reestablished.
I’ll wahger the five year Comonwelth leases dont go the distance either.
And I agree – electoral reform should proceed quickly to ban political parties touting for postal votes.
As noted, the Libs were definitely using the system to coordinate sending propoganda the same day as the vote arrived. Barely legal – but clearly undesireable.
AEC only. Nice and above board.
Julia Gillard or Warren (Buffoon) Truss as Acting PM? Just imagine!
Well Jasmine, don’t forget that there will be a redistribution in WA before the next federal election – although the 15 seats will remain, it’ll be interesting to see how the AEC accommodate the rapidly growing areas of metropolitan Perth.
I always suspected that without Graham Edwards, Cowan would turn blue so the result there didn’t surprise me at all. Many parts of the seat (especially the northern areas) are becoming McMansion territory as the previous Labor-leaning market gardeners etc. move away. A good Labor candidate could get it back, but I think Simpkins will hold it for a while.
I still can’t quite work out what happened in Swan. The Labor areas swung slightly to Wilkie, the Liberal areas swung a little more sharply to the Liberals (?) and the Libs got enough of a swing on the absentees to claim the seat. I am biased, but Labor should never have lost this seat and I’ll certainly be dedicating myself to getting it back.
I think Labor could win a byelection in Higgins. Although the new government hasn’t had time to do much, I don’t think it could have got off to a better start in how it’s presenting itself, e.g., getting right down to work, wanting to keep its promises (yes, Garrett _was_ joking, in case anyone really thought he wasn’t) , and generally getting things moving as fast as it can. Right now Labor looks about a thousand times more ready to govern than the Nelson-led Coalition. There also must be a strong personal following for Costello in Higgins. I think the seat is vulnerable.
222 marky marky – wrong again Marky. I have never been a member of any political party and have in fact voted Liberal before. I just don’t agree with your criticism of Rudd. It’s based on pure bias and bile. Rudd has every right to take a public stand on this case. Like most people I only heard about it in the last 48 hours. When did you hear about it Marky? Now tell us what you like about Rudd.
302
I haven’t lived in Higgins for a while but did live there for 20+ years. Costello had a reasonably low profile as a local member.
He would, naturally, have a much higher recocognition factor than any of his likely successors, but not all recognition is positive. In terms of the support for him based off local performance, I’d suggest it would be verging on nil.
He’s not really an “open the local shool’s new gynm” kinda guy.
Don’t know about that aspidistra, it would have to be a high profile candidate, say a conservative someone that comes to bat for labor. i would run a dummy or 2 independent, say a gay activist.
Yes, the candidate would be important. The Libs might also need a high-profile candidate to save it, though.
Costello might not be high-profile locally, but he was the country’s Treasurer for 11.5 years. There was a relatively small swing against the Liberals in Higgins compared with most other suburban Melbourne electorates, which I would have thought was largely due to a personal following.
Higgins isn’t really “suburban” not in a mortgage belt kinda way, at least. It’s the “right side of Warrigal Road”, for instance. Trust me, that’s very important to the mindset of the people there….
Compare Costello’s performance to Petro Georgio in Kooyong – the seat right next door and one with very similar demographics.
I think there may also have been a “we get to have the PM as local member” assisting Costello this election.
As one of the few decent Liberals to stand against some of Howard’s appalling policies in the House, Petro Georgiou would have one of the strongest personal followings in the country. He suffered only a minuscule swing against him, mostly for that reason I would think.
Federal Liberal Party President to step down.
The federal president of the Liberal Party, Chris McDiven, is likely to step down from her position tomorrow, Liberal Senator Nick Minchin says.
Ms McDiven is expected to announce her intention when the Liberal Party’s federal executive meet in Canberra tomorrow.
“I understand Chris McDiven will indicate her intentions at that meeting and as I understand it she will not be seeking another term as federal president,” Senator Minchin told ABC Radio.
“Therefore at the next meeting of the party’s superior governing body … the federal council will need to elect a new federal president.”
Senator Minchin dismissed suggestions Ms McDiven should have urged former prime minister John Howard to stand down before the election.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/liberal-party-president-to-step-down/2007/12/11/1197135407711.html
I really thought Rudd should have tried to nab Petro and offer him a multicultural affairs portfolio. Would have made for good policy and mischeivously good politics. He’s as well credentialled as anyone, liked by Labor folks, and would have brought Liberal factionalism to the fore.
And yet aspidistra of comment 308, Nelson chose to leave such an experienced parliamentarian as Petro from his front bench. Nelson is obviously yet to work out that a ‘generational change’ means a lot more than how old the person is.
Good morning all.
Pancho, I don’t recall a government ever giving a ministry to an opposition member. I know Churchill did it in wartime Britain, and I know it happened in the last episode of West Wing – but here in Australia, I don’t recall it happening. Ministries are one of the spoils of victory. As much as I like Petro, I think Rudd would be lynched by his own if he gave a ministry to the Opposition.
I do recall the hung Qld parliament a decade ago in which the Labor Speaker, Jim Fouras, was offered the job by the Coalition when Labor lost the confidence motion and power shifted to a minority Coalition government. Obviously had he accepted it would have cost Labor a vote on the floor (other than his casting vote). Fouras resigned.
Ferny Grover, I think the only example in Australian federal politics is H.B. Higgins serving as Attorney-General in the Watson Government. That was only because the Labor caucus didn’t contain a qualified lawyer.
I agree it would have been difficult, particularly with the amount of contenders and talent on the Labor benches. But it just seemed to be in vogue with Brown in Britain talking to both Conservatives and Lib Dems about defecting in the past year. Tory MP Quentin Davies did in June (from memory) and there have been others. Temple Morris, another Tory, did in 1998. These seemed big coups, and were rattling to the Tories.
With all the talk of ‘governing for all Australians’ I thought there might be an outside chance of an approach, which I would have loved to see. I agree it would have been a long shot. Kernot is the closest analogy in my time in Australia. I’m sure Adam or someone else can give us more historical controversies.
FG @ 312
Karlene Maywald was sworn in as a State Government Minister on 23rd July 2004, as Minister for the River Murray, Regional Development, Small Business and Consumer Affairs, Science and Information Economy.
Karlene is the South Australian Member for the seat of Chaffey, which encompasses the Riverland & Northern Mallee regions, of South Australia. Since becoming a Member of Parliament, Karlene has held the position of South Australian Leader of The Nationals.
See:
http://www.premier.sa.gov.au/ministers.php?id=13
312
Hey there Ferny G
What about Karlene Maywald in SA – She’s a well-respected Nat who is:
Minister Assisting the Minister for Industry and Trade
Minister for Regional Development
Minister for Small Business
Minister for the River Murray
Minister for Water Security
It was a great move on Rann’s part – he has a good and very well connected minister inb rural/regional areas and he right royally brownes the Nats off as well
Charlie, that’s interesting. I don’t recall the Higgins incident. Was he in a party or an independent?
Pancho, the idea appeals to the idealist in me, but govering for all Australians is not the same as government by all Australians (and especially not by that lot across the chamber!)
I can’t say I’m up to date with state legislatures, but I do seem to recall reading of Ms Mayward in SA. How rare is that! Is she still a ‘well respected Nat’ – by the Nats that is?
True Ferny, but Petro is one of the founders of the Australian multicultural project. Was one of Fraser’s staff members who shaped his views, and the main inspirer of the Galbally Report into immigrant services in 1978. He was also the first director of the Australian Institute of Multicultural Affairs in 1979. He has both form and ideals.
Does Ms Maywald maintain government solidarity by voting with the government even if the Nats are voting in opposition to a matter? What a difficult position for her to be in.
Isn’t she the only Nationals member of the SA Parliament?
Ah LETP, that would make it easier.
Yep Pancho, Petro is to be greatly admired – albeit from a distance.
grace pettigrew Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 8:07 am
Very well put.
anyone in adelaide had problems getting ABC tv? dissappeared off the uhf…
Regarding the rape case and the judge’s comment as reported that: “probably agreed to have sex with all of you”. An earlier comment suggested that a 10 year old could consent, providing the analogy of giving their bicycle to their brother.
Another argument was that this is a different culture, that child sex viz once a child reaches (or appears to have reached) puberty is acceptable.
And such are the arguments of all paedophiles; that the child ‘enjoyed’ the experience, that they were consenting, that it is part of their culture.
And what is a “just outcome” for the ten year old girl?
Child rapists walking free?
You don’t need a Law Degree and an exaggerated view of human rights to know that the judges sentence was wrong. Just a dose of common sense.
Rudd is right to be outraged!
for anyone interested. The Sea shepherd off to ram whaling ships in the southern ocean again and they renamed their ship the “RV Steve Irwin”!!!
Question is what how will Garrett, Rudd & co respond to the Japanese killing humpbacks in australian waters?
oop forgot the link for above 329 http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_071205_1.html
Garrett suggested that the Navy be deployed to protect our whales in the southern oceans much the same as they protect our fishing grounds up the top end. Garrett was shot down in flames by the media…huh, we’re goin’ to war against the Japanese, huh. I should mention that I’m a Military Mum with a son in the RAN.
What is the thinking in the Navy Min?
I somehow don’t think the Navy’s gonna open fire on Whaling Ships thats a bit far fetched to assert that. MSM is a farce they’ll probably be ready to cruficy garrett as soon he breathes.
While I respect and appreciate the views of grace p and Rod on the legal and anthropological aspects of what is admittedly a scant understanding of this rape case, surely it is also important to quesion the veracity of legal process as it is so often used in a way that may be legally correct but nevertheless immoral (Hicks for example).
Is it not public opinion that creates the impetus for change when the law is simply wrong?
Hello Pancho. I cannot proport to know what the Navy is thinking. After all they’re just blokes and lasses doing their job. However, as sailors and all good matelots love the sea and it’s denizins then protecting our whales is not a job that they would be adverse to.
Min as much as i deplore whaling, if Garrett and Fitzgibbon sent Australian warships into International Waters and threatened to sink Japanese naval vessels we’d be up for piracy in the International Courts you just cant do this.
Sure we defend our own fisheries and oceans under our control but we can’t go out into International Waters where the Japanese do their whaling and ramp or threaten to sink their ships.
329
cobber – they don’t kill whales in Australian waters.
328
Greensborough Growler – it’s a shame we dont have the death penalty for rapists oh well.
Ferny Grover, Higgins was a Protectionist/Deakinite Liberal. He was however very popular amongst the labour movement, and they actually endorsed him at the 1901 election.
In Canada the Tory Harper Government offered two ministerial positions to Liberal Party MPs, they both accepted but will probably lose their seats at the next election, their constituents are pissed off as you can imagine.
With your indulgence William, a few more slivers of information have surfaced this morning in The Australian about the reported pack-rape of a 10 year old girl by 9 males, which probably should be allowed to enter the debate here, given that it appears to be continuing.
Firstly, the abuse occurred in 2005 when 6 of the 9 males were teenagers under the age of 16, some of them not much more than children themselves, and perhaps not capable of understanding the wrong they were committing.
Secondly, the young girl, who was apparently 10 at the time of the abuse, was mildly intellectually impaired, had already been sexually abused and contracted syphilis before this case, was known by her foster parents to be offering sex in return for alcohol and cigarettes, had requested condoms from medical staff, and had previously threatened suicide.
Thirdly, the young girl was returned to her aboriginal community by social workers after a period in foster care, against the wishes of her own parents and her foster parents, but apparently in order to avoid any suggestion by indigenous leaders that the department might be “stealing” children.
Fourthly, the judge involved was previously lauded by the indigenous leaders for her commitment to avoiding custodial sentences where other avenues of punishment and rehabilitation might be available.
And finally, the prosecution did not seek custodial sentences for the 9 males and the judge agreed, for reasons that are not yet completely apparent, are probably complex and confronting, and in the case of some of the younger male teenagers, possibly defensible. That is for the appeal process to determine.
This case is currently being prosecuted aggressively through the front pages of The Australian newspaper. Other major newspapers have noted the case in back pages as an disturbing and ongoing matter to be resolved through the proper workings of the appeal process within the Queensland judicial system, at the instigation of the Queensland Premier.
PM Rudd has made no further comment.
And just in case it needs to be said again, child rape is horrific and is not condoned by anyone here.
GG, noone on here to my knowledge has even mentioned human rights in relation to the Aurukun decision. Nor has anyone expressed anything but horror that a child could be abused in this way. The main issue is that reaching conclusions based purely on news reports is unhelpful, be you the PM or anyone else. The facts are needed to discover:
1. What the judge actually said;
2. What were the reasons for the decision;
3. Why the DPP did not argue for a custodial sentence (the judge apparently accepted the DPPs advice on this);
4. Why the Qld Attorney-General did not launch an appeal within the 28 day appeal period as would normally be the case in situations where an obvious case of inadequate sentencing has occurred.
To form a view without these facts is to jump to an uninformed opinion – which, of course, is so easy for us to do when child abuse is involved. So the argument is simply a call to exercise caution. The appeal to the Supreme Court will be interesting to watch.
Glen: we’re talking about poaching our whales in Australian waters. The Japanese government does not recognise our sanctuaries, and it is about time that they did. For too long we’ve turned a blind eye to this. Oh yes the Japanese do kill whales in our waters because of the above reason, they do not recognise our claim. Oh dear, it’s getting too close to the Xmas thingy..I am happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.
Jen what possible change could arise from the media’s moral indignation in this case? Very little, unless you’re looking at taking the action to enforce mandatory sentencing which has positives and negatives involved. Other than that, all that can be done is for action to be taken within the system. If the sentences were unusual and wrong then there will be grounds for appeal and that will be taken.
I don’t puport to know anything much about the case so won’t comment on the specifics, for instance what the appropriate sentence would be. We have a system currently that allows judges, magistrates etc. to set sentences for convicted criminals. The system sometimes produces sentences that are too harsh, sometimes sentences that are too lenient. In each circumstance there are avenues to appeal the sentencing decision. As far as I’m concerned public opinion should never enter into sentencing decisions.
I’m looking for a MSM publication that reports, opines, does not confuse the two and does not indulge in crusades or vendettas.
If you know of one, please let me know.
Charlie @293 asks “Who has ever referred to anyone as ‘ unka’. “.
Answer: Donald Duck frequently referred to Scrooge McDuck as “unca Scrooge”.
The use of the term is telling of both the user and the object.
“In 1994, Australia attempted to stop some of the Japanese whaling program by enforcing a 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ) around the Australian Antarctic Territory. However, Antarctic territories are not generally recognized internationally. In particular, the Antarctic Treaty, to which Australia is a signatory, specifically states that all claims to Antarctic territories remain unresolved while the treaty is in force (the treaty was originally devised to prevent conflict between the USSR and USA during the Cold War). Legal advice obtained by the Australian government indicated that attempts to stop Japanese whaling in the Australian Antarctic Territory by resorting to international courts may, in fact, have led to Australia losing its claim to that territory.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Japan
Technically those Waters not being recognised as our Waters are then deemed IW by most nations as International Waters and any attempts to fight this in the International Courts if lost could allow Japan a blanket ability to hunt in and around Antarctica and not only that potentially lose our claim to part of Antarctica.
In actual fact it is the IWC who are to blame Min IMHO.
The scientific research exception
Pursuant to Article VIII, paragraph 1 of the Convention, any country that wishes to conduct scientific research on whales may invoke the scientific research provision as an exception to an IWC regulation.
“ Notwithstanding anything contained in this Convention, any Contracting Government may grant to any of its nationals a special permit authorizing that nation to kill, take, and treat whales for purposes of scientific research subject to such restrictions as to number and subject to such other conditions as the Contracting Government thinks fit and the kill, taking, and treating of whales in accordance with the provisions of this Article shall be exempt from the operation of the Convention.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Whaling_Commission#The_scientific_research_exception
yes Greensborough Growler you are right re the case
A dose of reality here.
The NT aboriginal child sexual abuse issue was repeated brought up in the campaign re if Rudd would change it. (as late as the Press Club on 22nd Nov)
It IS a Federal government responsibility under the constitution
A shocking case of Aboriginal sex abuse occurs & Rudd is asked to comment on a subject that has been part of the campaign & for which there IS a Federal Minister
For blogers to suggest Rudd should not have commented is absurd & illogical.
Conversely Rudd would not comment on a pack rape of a black kid in Sydney.
Given one of the rapists was 26 and the victim only 10 , for any bloger to defend
the Judges decision is appalling.
It is inconceivable that any Judge would have made a similar decision if the
10 year old was white
Furthermore would the Judge defending blogers still defend the Judge.I think not.
Min and GG.
The more information that emerges about this case the more tragic and the more complex it becomes. One can see crimes and tragedy and failure all the way along, from the birth of a child with fetal alcohol syndrome, through an earlier rape, through , apparently, the child actively offering herself for tobacco and alcohol both while living with foster parents and back in the community, and so on.
Even with the background that has become publicly available it is clear that this was not a simple case. No doubt the judge concerned had far greater information than we have access to through the newspapers. It is noteworthy , too that not even the prosecution sought custodial sentences.
Simply making “off the cuff” judgements based on media reports about court decisions, as Rudd did , is a dangerous course to take in such situations. Neither we, nor he, know the details. Both the prosecution and the judge clearly were in a far better position to assess the situation than we are.
Now neither prosecutors nor judges always get it right, and there are formal processes of review which are being implemented in this situation, but no matter how hard it might be to suppress ones emotions in such circumstances, politicians , and , I think, all of us, would be well advised to avoid making premature judgements on the basis of what the media say in such circumstances.
Thanks Grace -
I appreciate your efforts to deal rationally and factually with what is of course an emotive issue.
LETP-i don’t support trial by media or think that public opinion should influence sentencing. I do, however, think that public opinion is what may well lead to a review and change of laws that fail us.
Labor are no chance to win a bye election in Higgins. It’s just fantasy stuff. There is no comparason with Kennett in Burwood because the demographics are not the same and the circumstance of any departure by Tip are not the same as that of Jeff. The punters were really peeved with Jeffery and I’m not sure this is the case with Costello.
Grace @ 339.
1. Bulldust
2. So what?
3. Abrogation of responsibility?
4. So What?
5. Yada Yada
Terrible crime, terrible process, terrible outcome.
Glen, I don’t support capital punishment. If State sanctioned killing is the answer, then it is a pretty stupid question.
NOW The Q’ld Premier Anna Bligh has stated publicly the decision is appalling
Unlike the Judge defenders on this blog , she has ordered a review of ALL cases
in the Cape York region over the last 2 years.
Clearly the Q’ld Government are not happy with past judges decisions and are not prepared to allow the Judicial system to handle the matter themselves
So, GG at 351, I gather if your 12 year old son was found in the garden shed with the 10 year old girl from next door, engaged in sexual congress, you would be the first to yell for 20 to life for your son the rapist?
grace -
if he was 26, for sure.
grace, straw man arguments are nonsense.
Grace what about the death penalty?
Rape is just a cm below murder in my book, these scumbags deserve the worst form of punishment we can give. But we are a soft nation when it comes to punishment.
Grace and Ron have it nailed.
We have had too many trials by media in the past (eg Lindy Chamberlain for one) and nowadays we also have hysterical bloggers seeking to second guess prosecutors, juries and judges.
Plus there seems to be a commonly held view that the law should be used to exact revenge on behalf the victim. That’s the Islamic way of law and something we in the secular west have moved on from.
Ron at 352, Anna Bligh has made a smart move as Premier, reach for a review. That should take some political heat out of the situation for a while, although aboriginal leaders are saying that it will only open up old wounds and will not help the little girl in the long run. And you misunderstand the legal implications. Bligh’s review will have no impact on, and will not interfere with, the progress of judicial review through the appeals court.
Pancho et al. I suggested Rudd make Turnbull the environment Minister before Cossie turned down the Lib leadership. It didn’t go down very well with other bloggers though. I think my sanity was questioned.
On the judge decision, on the face of it, there are serious questions to be asked and answered but these judges are NOT MORONS and don’t make decisions lightly and were privy to al the facts which is not the case with us. I understand that even the prosecutor didn’t ask for a custodial sentence. There must have been a reason for that. Our opinions are only as good as our information.
Grace says
So, GG at 351, I gather if your 12 year old son was found in the garden shed with the 10 year old girl from next door, engaged in sexual congress,
ARE SCARED TO DEAL WITH FACTS
One of the Rapists was 26 not 12
The victim was 10
The rapist received no custodial sentence
Defend that
“the young girl, who was apparently 10 at the time of the abuse, was mildly intellectually impaired, had already been sexually abused and contracted syphilis before this case”
Apart from the particulars of this case, how horrific are these facts? A ten year old intellectually impaired girl with syphylis …
Back to the case, the judge appears to lack judgement, which is quite a serious failing in a judge. The factors listed by Grace Pettigrew at 339 don’t look very mitigating. The judge was lauded for her commitment to non custodial sentences, so? Sometimes, just sometimes, a custodial sentence is required.
Ok….so let’s just do away with the legal system. If the Courier Mail forms a view that should be good enough for us all. Lock em up, hang em high, sack all judges and do what Shakespeare said and kill all the lawyers.
FG how can you defend suspended sentences for gang rapists???
Executing them would be too good for them. They should have life sentences and no parole at least for the bloody 26 year old!
Whilst ALP voters tend to admire Petro Georgiou, commenters on this site in the past have repeatedly said that he’s not necessarily liked maong Lib voters, and is regarded as a pretty useless member locally.
Costello might have attracted some votes by being a potential PM, but I suspect the strong turn-out for the Libs in both Kooyong and Higgins has little to do with personal factors, and everything to do with the fact that these neighbourhoods are filled with rusted-on blue-rinsers and wealthy business-types who are the Libs’ core constituent.
I can’t see the ALP winning these sorts of seats in byelections. However, there may be a gradual swing to the ALP in these areas if the world (particularly in economic terms) doesn’t end under Rudd, and these voters feel more comfortable with the ALP’s economic management. Since the economic interests of a Toorak voter are not by any means the same as those of an outer-suburbanite, I’m not sure it’s necessary or desirable for Rudd to be chasing these votes in any case.
Ron, who are these so-called ‘judge defenders’? You don’t think it’s possible that what we’re seeing is people defending the judicial system and questioning why people are making rash judgments without knowing the facts of the case?
Also, you don’t think that that move by Ms Bligh was just trying to politically handle the system? In any case, what will a ‘review’ do? Nothing… now what sort of meaningful reforms to the judicial process are you proposing?
Why do we have a judiciary do you know? Why not just let the parliament decide every matter of law? It’s all really very silly stuff… politicians should leave
Before you get too hysterical, GG and Ron, the point I was trying to make is that six of the nine “gang-rapists” were children at the time of the offence. So I ask you again, would you condemn your 12 year old child to 20 years to life for rape?
Glen, if you read my posts on this subject you will see that I have NOT defended anyone, be it the rapists or the judge. I have simply said that all we have is news reports which give us a scant understanding of the facts or the law as it was applied. My note of caution was simply that we need to get the facts before rushing to judgment.
grace… there’s no point arguing. These people have made up their minds and will refuse to budge on it.
I’d suggest it may benefit this blog to move on from this discussion.
Grace your argument is a bennite solution, lets just not punish people for their crimes because ohhh they were too young to know better that’s bull butter. Jail time and a tough penalty is exactly what these scumbags need.
Ferny Grover
that is a complete distortion of what people are saying here. No one (except Glen and he doesn’t count) is suggesting hanging them or sacking judges, although I do have some sympathy wih Shakespeares position.
What some of are saying is that the law in this case has either not been adequately applied (at least one of the men was 26 remember???), and /or the law itself is inadequate to deal with the crime.
Grace you are too scared to mention one of the rapists is 26
I am waiting for your reasons why the 26 year old got NO custodial sentence
( this fact alone makes the judges decision appalling)
Jen, are you suggesting mandatory sentencing?
369
Jen – i never said we should sack the judge at all. But i do think people who are 26 years old and participate/lead a gang rape of a 10 year old should be executed or t least put in jail for the rest of their natural life.
Getting back to elections, The AEC have agreed to a recount in McEwen. Starts tomorrow.
Cheers
Rod
Jenny Macklin wasn’t very impressive as deputy opposition leader; let’s hope she does better in Indigenous Affairs. Good luck.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/11/2115439.htm
Most juvenile sex offenders are given non-custodial sentences. They are usually placed on an order that allows for monitoring by youth justice officials, and that compels the offender to seek treatment.
In many cases (in Vic, at least), police and prosecutors investigate these matters and decide not to pursue criminal charges, as a result of the offender’s age and state of mind. With any offender aged between 10-14, the prosecution has an additional burden of proof, in that they must demonstrate that the alleged perp had the wherewithal to know of their own wrongdoing (called means rea, to give it its Latin legal term).
The sentence imposed on the juveniles in this case is therefore largely consistent with sentencing around the country. The big difference is that these offenders are Aboriginal, and the sensationalist media are pushing the line that they received special treatment. They haven’t.
yes agree Glen …life term
Ron at 371, I mentioned early on that 6 of the 9 males were under the age of 16. I was making the point that some of the offenders were children, which seems to have escaped the notice of most of those here whose “common sense” tells them that all nine “gang-rapists” should be hung, drawn and quartered. If you wish to focus only on the sentencing of the 26 year old, fine, go ahead, but don’t misrepresent my argument please.
Jen, it was Glen that I was flippantly responding to. But my point remains that all we currently have is what the media have told us. The case is complex. I want to know (as I said earlier).
1. What the judge actually said
2. What were the reasons for her decision
3. Why the DPP did not request a custodial sentence
4 Why the A-G didn’t appeal the decision within the 28 day appeal period as he would normally do when a decision is clearly inadequate.
I’m not sure why a plea to obtain the facts would cause such an emotional reaction.
THR , what is the appropriate sentence if any for the 26 year old ??
I just can’t believe that our legal system allows for any 26 year old to get away with raping someone and only get a suspended sentence i mean what country are we living in. What kind of justice is that Grace? There should be mandatory life sentences for these types of crimes but we are too soft.
Grace,
I would prefer to see an appropriate punishment. A walk on the gang rape of a ten year old is not appropriate to me.
What they should get is somewhere between what they got and Glen’s execution solution.
You seem so enmeshed in your judicial process solution that you don’t see, that in this case, it is wrong.
That is my opinion and I think I’m right!
I don’t know what the appropriate sentence is for the 26-year old. Yes, I agree that on the face of it, a 26-year old with prior convictions should be given a custodial sentence for re-offending. However, I can think of a number of Vic cases where an adult has offended and not been given a custodial sentence, for a number of reasons, and the offenders in these cases were not Aboriginal.
378 Ferny- I completely agree with your statements. I’m afraid the hysteria of moral outrage will drown out your arguments though. And the judges do get it right most of the time. Just look at Conrad Black with six years in the Big House.
Jenny at 262: “I agree about the postal votes. They simply have to have better supervision. I can’t see why the AEC shouldn’t just do it all. The current system is simply too open to abuse, but of course none of that was addressed by the lovely Eric Abetz in his crusade to ensure the ‘integrity’ of the electoral roll. Frankly, I don’t think he’d know what integrity was if it bit him on the nose.”
Jenny, Eric Abetz initiated the Liberal Party crusade on the “integrity” of the electoral roll, but it was taken to its grubby completion by Christopher Pyne, as Chairman of the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters in 2001.
Over the past decade, the two major political parties have radically intervened in the independent administration of the electoral system by the AEC, without most australians knowing what is going on. By sending official AEC postal vote applications, attached to party political propaganda, right into your home, the parties have given themselves permission to corrupt an important aspect of the voting system.
Many voters innocently assume that the material has been sent to them by the AEC and trustingly post their applications back to the political party HQs in each division, using the printed envelope conveniently provided, assuming this is the way it should be done.
In the party offices the private information provided by the voter on the application is recorded and matched against computerised databases, where the name of every voter in that division is listed, plus any other personal information that the party might have added over time to describe the voters preferences.
The Privacy Act exempts these political party databases (Electrac and Feedback) from public scrutiny so you have no idea what information is held on you by the political parties (a good reason incidentally for using pseudonyms on blogs like these, that are regularly trawled by party workers for voter information to add to their databases).
The AEC regularly reports after elections, that a significant number of postal vote applicants have written in to complain that they never received their postal ballot papers after sending through their applications. Is it not a reasonable supposition that their applications were deliberately not passed on by political party workers, after they consulted their databases for those who might not vote their way? There is no outside supervision over any actions taken in party offices when they are handling your postal vote application.
Should we not be concerned that our voting system is gradually being skewed by the ever increasing number of postal votes (recorded well before polling day) at each succeeding federal election? Voters are increasingly bypassing the AEC and using this political party system to apply for postal votes because of its undoubted convenience, apparently oblivious to the fact that the privacy of their voting information is being compromised by partisan players who have no business intervening in the administration of the electoral system.
Anyone who objects to this creeping corruption might consider sending a submission to the parliamentary Joint Standing Commission on Electoral Matters, which will convene early next year to review the 2007 federal election.
End of rave (for the moment).
365
grace pettigrew Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Before you get too hysterical, GG and Ron, the point I was trying to make is that six of the nine “gang-rapists” were children at the time of the offence. So I ask you again, would you condemn your 12 year old child to 20 years to life for rape?
And Grace, what if your son invited 8 of his mates to join in on the ‘fun’.
And now we are lead to believe (if the reports are correct) that this child is mildly intellectually disabled. So what of the judge’s consideration that this child most likely ‘consented’ to having sex with adults.
Grace: if you don’t have children of your own, go to your local primary school and go into the Year 4 class. These are 10 year old children, they’re just little kids.
Ron (and others) ask what is the appropriate sentence if any for the 26 year old
There is no possible answer to this given the amount of information which is publicly available, Ron.
Was the 26 year old a predatory knowing adult taking callous advantage of a situation which presented itself to him, or was he, too, a victim of fetal alcohol syndrome with a mental age of 8 and a history of being abused himself, just as she was? What was his actual role in the situation? and so on and so on. We simply don’t know. The judge and the prosecutor presumably did, but we don’t.
Piers has found a way to expand this discussion by tying it to the Heiner affair and of course making it Rudd’s problem.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/piersakerman/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/lets_clear_up_the_heiner_affair/
This conversation started because some blogers objected to Rudd’s comment the decision was appalling
Rudd in fact correctly commented on aboriginal child sex abuse as it is a Federal constitutional responsibility
As such , the 3 adults at least should have received custodial sentences and the fact they did not meant the PM is right…the decision is appalling
Is anyone suggesting a 26 year old would NEVER get a jail sentence for raping a 10 year old white child ? or is the question too hard to answer
308 Aspidistra- Petro Georgiou in my view is a statesman, and that rare breed who will speak out on principle.Until the Libs start elevating those of his calibre they won’t get my vote again. The late Peter Andren,Independent for Calare, was another wonderful example.
Despite agreeing with most of Keating’s policies, the reason I voted against him was because I was embarrassed by his contemptuous manner and ’sledging’- while humorous at times,also cruel . (I was always of the belief that a PM has to represent the best and govern for us all , despite idiocy,etc. )
And then we elected JWH .
What is the saying? ..’beware of nurse for fear of something worse’ ?
Megan
Hilaire Belloc. Recommended reading.
Ron, the case was prosecuted under the Qld Criminal Code. The Commonwealth Constitution has nothing to do with this matter. As for The Prime Minister stating his view, the concern was simply that he did so based solely on very inadequate news reports and this was a concern to many on here.
Glen at 381, you and others seem to be under a misapprehension here. I am not “defending” the sentence given to the 26 year old. I am saying, repeatedly, along with Ferny G, THR and others, that we don’t know all the facts in this case, and that is complicated by the aboriginality and youth of most of the offenders, and the sad history of the young victim.
The judicial system is there to deal with any miscarriage of justice, and should be allowed to do its job.
Unfortunately the media, and specifically The Australian newspaper, is currently playing a spoiling role with the selective and possibly biased presentation of information, in manipulating public opinion in a particular direction. They would be very pleased with your gut reactions, it sells more papers.
Peace friends -
we are all obviously appalled at the crime.
the discussion started with Rudd making comment, and whether or not he should have- personally I think that what he said was measured and appropriate . Somehow we have ended up with capital punishment and trial by lynch mob.
So, to not further inflame this discussion may i say that I actaully agree that all the facts need to be known and due legal process must occur.
Also though, that it is important that public discussion take place about our society’s management and response to the issue of child sexual abuse. Including that of the legal system.
Kevin Rudd’s Social Gospel
In a speech given to New College at the University of New South Wales in 2005, Kevin Rudd outlined his vision of the appropriate relationship between Church and State in Australia.
This from Radio National’s The Spirit of Things. For those interested, there is a transcript at
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/spiritofthings/stories/2007/2109351.htm#transcript
or you can do a download.
Min at 385: “Grace: if you don’t have children of your own, go to your local primary school and go into the Year 4 class. These are 10 year old children, they’re just little kids.”
Oh puleese Min.
gary (349), I’m not saying Labor would be favourite to win Higgins, but if the Liberals continue to look as hopeless as they do at present (which is likely; the resumption of parliament is really their only opportunity to change that), and the Labor honeymoon continues, the gulf between the two sides of politics will look large, so a big swing to the ALP wouldn’t be a surprise. They could get close, and I wouldn’t rule out that they could nab the seat.
My final point on this topic is that, rightly or wrongly, the law distinguishes between ‘degrees’ of sexual assault, and assigns different sentences to each.
For instance, a crime prosecuted as ‘indecent assault’ could be expected to attract a lesser sentence than one designated ‘aggravated rape’.
It’s a shame that this emphasis on sentencing misses the larger point on how extraordinarily difficult it is to pursue sexual offenders through the criminal areana, how unsatisfactory this process is for victims. Statistics consistently demonstrate that a shocking number of people are the victims of childhood sexual abuse (anywhere between 10-25%) yet virtually all the literature is in agreement that these offences are grossly under-reported.
Selective moral outrage does nothing to change any of this.
After such a long time of hearing Howard narrative twisting current events for political benefit, it’s hard it is not to view events through Howard’s wedge prisim.
So far it seems Rudd was asked his opinion of the judgement and he gave it. Rudd is very smart cookie and would have been mindful of the policital risks of an equivocal answers and so was crisp and to point. But, I think his answer was also genuine.
If he takes up the issue and tries to use it as a point of political differentiation -that is the point of taking it too far.
Grace Pettigrew
Who do you think you are “oh pleese min” you can’t win the argument as it’s unwinnable to defend rapists of children no mater what the situation was. so you use you high and mighty condesending tone towards Min. what a coward you are!
As for your statement
“I am not “defending” the sentence given to the 26 year old. ”
WHAT SENTENCE??? HE”S WALKING FREE! NEVER WAS SENTENCED!!!
WTR, I never doubted that the PM was genuine; I doubted his wisdom. But I’m a lawyer with an in-built caution when it comes to commenting on cases I know little or nothing about. If a decision looks inadequate to me I don’t jump to the conclusion that the judge got it wrong – I want to see the reasons for the decision. This discussion has also added to my concerns at how easy it is for the media to stir up hysteria, particularly where child abuse is concerned. All of us here I’m sure would be committed to the Rule of Law, yet several folk on here were virtually branded as supporters of child rapists merely for expressing caution at blindly accepting media reports and appealing to the facts. That is a concern and should give us all pause.
Oh puleese Min.
grace pettigrew Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Grace, you are the one who used the analogy of YOUR 12 year old son and a 10 year old playmate, I simply extended the argument by suggesting what if your son brought 8 of his mates along to join in the ‘fun’.
Oh pulssese…as in 10 year old children in your opinion aren’t just little kids?
Having said that, I am not commenting on the penalty given by the judge. As has already been stated by several well thought out commentaries here, this is a matter for the court which must take in all sorts of mitigating circumstances. My concern is that the ‘pedophile’s defence’ has been utilized by the judge, that a 10 year old can ‘consent’ to having sex. And Grace, we’re not talking about ‘playing doctor’ here.
Vera at 399, apologies for my slip re “sentence”.
Otherwise, I am afraid you have not understood I word I have said.
And as to Min, she is big and tough enough to defend herself my dear.
As she has just done, our posts crossed.
Min, my original comment was in reaction to your assumption about my possible barreness. I can assure you my fruit bowl is quite full.
Grace pettigrew
I’m not your “dear” and if I want to agree with and defend Min I will.
Ferny Grover,
I agree that you and Grace calling for caution does not and should not be interpreted as support for child rapists. But equally having a strong concern in regard to child sex offenders walking scott free does not equate to complete disregard for the rule of law`either.
Actually Grace, I don’t think you made a slip re “sentence”. As far as I can tell from the media they were given non custodial sentences – though I need to confirm this when the judgment is available.
Thanks FG, I did pause over that apology, but thought vera needed it.
No, I think they’d have lost last time if he’d gone earlier. And the Liberals would have won Swan in 2004 if they’d run a less disastrous candidate.
I’ve enjoyed reading Glen’s comments where he slams the ALP frontbench in general (and Julia Gillard in particular). Glen – have you taken a good look at the Coalition frontbench under Half Nelson. So shallow is the pool of talent that even Bronwyn Bishop got a guernsey. Bronwyn Bishop!!! Dude, come ON!
378 Ferny – I agree whole heartedly with your rational arguments but somehow such arguments never stop the lynch mobs.
No Jen, it doesn’t – and with respect, that is not what I said. My comments affirmed that all of us here are committed to the Rule of Law.
FG
Apologies.
You can tell I’m not a lawyer!
So now we are grasping at straws are we? Legal talk to (Custodial or non custodial) to defend your views that child rapists freely walking the streets is OK.
No wonder their are so many unkind jokes about lawers
FG,
Yep, I can see your point. But Rudd is a politician and a pretty savvy one. He was put on the spot to state his view and he gave a crisp sound bite. Had he wrung his hand and talked about needing to look at the details of the case he would have been carved up on talk back.
In cricket terms – Rudds response was a text-book foward defensive move by a politician and to be expected when bowled such a question. If he actually tries to score some runs – thats taking it too far.
Jen, no problem. We have more than enough lawyers.
Grace at 384 – ‘The AEC regularly reports after elections, that a significant number of postal vote applicants have written in to complain that they never received their postal ballot papers after sending through their applications’.
Has anything ever been done about these complaints, I mean has there ever been an inquiry?
Vera, I don’t recall anyone saying that it’s ok for child rapists to walk free.
Cheers FG,
although there are quite a few out of work with Howard’s End.
And as to Min, she is big and tough enough to defend herself my dear. Not so Grace, I am small and meek and so very much appreciate Vera’s support. Don’t we all need the Vera’s of this world.
I’m not certain about what you mean about the empty fruitbowl thing. You stated that you have a 12 year old son. Mine are a little older – daughter 30, unmarried (sadly..I am the mother from the bollywood movie Bride and Prejudice), son in the Navy, youngest doing her PhD at UQ.
Apologies, I thought from your blog that you had children but maybe from your fruitbowl comment that I was wrong in this assumption. No one’s fruitbowl is ever empty is it. Hugs, Min.
Jen,
Don’t worry about it. On the web nobody can tell if you’re a …
Jen, so I believe, but it was a sacrifice we were all happy to make.
Time spent in Children’s Courts has been an eye-opener as is spending time with indigenous communities. Thanks Ron, for giving us your valuable anthropological perspective .
There is so much more to get heated over than just the sexual – other cruelty can be so much worse but doesn’t hit the headlines.
Seems to me it took half a dozen posts from Ron before Grace would even admit that all the rapists weren’t kids themselves and that one was 26.
So the argument she was making that they being kids (I think she even suggested an excuse for them that they may have been drinking) was blown out of the water.
Hi Min
Hugs to you too
Has anyone else read the sickening Federal Report on aboriginal child abuse.
Howard made aboriginal child sex abuse a National responsibility based on that Report via the NT intervention.
So Rudd had every right to comment on the issue BECAUSE the Judges decision specifically regarding non jailing the ADULT rapists IS SUPPORTED BY MANY ABORIGINAL MEN (who perpetrate this sexual abuse)
What Howard and Rudd are both saying is Judges decisions are supporting the status quo and Rudd is saying NO , its appalling.
The issue of the Juveniles IS a separate debate.
The issue of the ‘oz’ sensationalism is disgusting to me as well
The Judges in the Cape York area are part of the problem which is WHY Anna Bligh is investigating all cases back 2 years
And with indulgence from William. How funny. I’ve been reading your (insert adjective mostly relating to the word insightful) thingys for ages but have only just gained enough confidence to post something. I’m just an at home mum, but am enjoying the experience. So many intelligent, literary, mathematical people here. Astounding!
And double hugs back to you Vera.
So noble of you FG.
Must be a professional embarrassment when you have someone like Phillip Ruddock as the most senior eagle in the land, not to mention the long list of others, including my personal favourite sophie Mirrabella.
I’m thinking of starting a Be Kind to Lawyers Week, just to show support to those among you who have to carry the shame.
Min, you said at 365: “Grace: if you don’t have children of your own, go to your local primary school and go into the Year 4 class. These are 10 year old children, they’re just little kids.”
My response of “min puleeze”, was a reaction to your suggestion that I might be childless, and perhaps therefore ill-equipped to have an opinion on a case involving child rape.
Hence my further response to you about my very full fruit bowl, which I am sure you remember is a reference to Julia Gillard, when she was castigated by the press for having a clean kitchen and an empty fruit bowl, in the context of Heffernan’s “barren” sledge.
And no, I do not have a 12 year old son. I was trying to suggest to one of the other commentators who wants to lynch children for rape, how he might feel if his own 12 year old son (hypothetically) was caught in the wood shed with a 10 year old girl from next door. And we do know this happens, even in the nicest families, don’t we?
Anyway, no hard feelings Min, I know you well from other blogs and your heart is in the right place. This conversation has been raging since last night, and perhaps you might read back over the previous page to see where it all started.
And vera my dear, you have completely lost the plot.
As a practising lawyer (yes, I’ll get it right one day), I find this decision difficult to comprehend, BUT I think that its necessary for us to resist the rush to judgement based on reports in the gutter press and other low forms of life known as the media.
It could well be that this is an appalling error on the part of the judge, but conversely they may be facts of which we are unaware and which make the decision at least understandable. Becoming part of an hysterical reaction based on hysterical media reports does nobody any good, and just encourages the media jackals even further.
Neophyte at 417: my post on this was held in moderation since this morning by William, and released at an odd moment when the other debate was heating up, so thanks for noticing!
I posted a link to the relelvant AEC submission to the JSCEM back in 1999, on the previous thread, and will have to go back and find it.
Later, have to go now.
Yes Jen, there are a few lawyers that embarrass and depress me. Kevin Andrews and his appalling abuse of process in the Haneef case is another. Fortunately I also know many other lawyers who are committed to justice, have high ethical standards, serve their clients well and who do a great deal of pro bono work for community organisations and legal centres. There is a great deal to be proud of in this profession but much of it is not seen by the general public. Let me encourage you with the Be Kind to Lawyers Week. We often feel set upon
neophyte (417), maybe the complaint letters are just preparation for their defence when the AEC issues them fines.
Grace @ 429,
“And no, I do not have a 12 year old son. I was trying to suggest to one of the other commentators who wants to lynch children for rape, how he might feel if his own 12 year old son (hypothetically) was caught in the wood shed with a 10 year old girl from next door. And we do know this happens, even in the nicest families, don’t we? ”
Your initial comment @ 352 was in response to mine @ 328.
If you bother checking what I have contributed on this matter, you will see that what you have written is a lie.
Would appreciate a withdrawal.
Min
Both my husband and i were also in the Navy.
Hubby is almost 50yrs old, he did 21 yrs and still does Reserve time every year.
We wouldn’t object if the NAVY used their ships to try keeping the Japanese ships away from whales in our waters.
But as hubbie says the trouble is that we don’t have any spare ships. They are also finding it hard to find sailors to fill postings. Hubbie has plenty of work to choose from and would be taken back into full time service on a 1 yr contract any time he wanted.
Grace obviously you can’t execute minors my comments were pointed to the 26 year old adult and that he should if guilty as the court found be sentenced either to death or life imprisonment for his crimes. As if anybody who supports capital punishment want to execute children Grace, i hope you would withdraw that slanderous remark.
FG,
I also know lots of Good Egg lawyers.
Just out of interest, was there anyone in the Howard Regime that wasn’t a lawyer??
I think the list includes Howard, Abbott, Downer, Costello, Vanstone, B Bishop, Reith, Ruddock…
no wonder you feel set upon.
Hey grace by the tone of a lot of posts directed at you seems like i ain’t the only one who’s “lost the plot”
he-he
Jen, there’s quite a few lawyers on Labor’s side too. As for the coalition, of course Dr Horatio is not a lawyer, neither is Bronwyn Bishop to my knowledge. I really don’t know enough of the pre political background of the others.
Vera, this is Kaos….we don’t “he he” here.
In her younger days, Bronwyn Bishop was an actress on the TV series “Divorce Court.” Does that count?
Ferny
we do at CONTROL
ask Maxwell Smart
he-he
Geez Glen, you’ll be calling for pistols at dawn next.
Crumbs GG – imagine watching Bronwyn for entertainment! Not much has changed really.
Hi Min
Glad to see you here blogocrat.
My take on this case is that there might be mitigating circumstances and not all the facts have been revealed.
However, due to the morals and ethics that I consider to be in our limited culture, my concerns only rest with the well being of the person that was violated.
I entrust the rule of law to look after the other issue, and my understanding is that there will be an appeal and also a review of all judgements of the last two years.
When this has been completed, then, only then, it would be appropriate to to express an opinion of the deficiency’s of the system.
If this comes to pass, then I will protest to the relevant departments.
Let this run it’s course.
Reading Rudd’s response it seems measured and not a rush to judgement. In the little I’ve read about this it seems a complete horrific disaster and I find it hard to judge what I think should happen.
But I don’t like a 26 year getting a non-custodial sentence, regardless of his personal circumstances. But I admit, that’s merely personal and we could all do with knowing the full facts of the case.
107
Harry ‘Snapper’ Organs Says:
December 10th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Kirribilli Removals took his/her own sweet time to turn up, but very satisfying that Hyacinth and the Prime Monster, who’s legacy shall be mud in the mouth of his folllowers, are now re-located out of the $17 billion waste of their occupancy.
Mate, I mean, maaaate! Fair crack of the whip, have you any idea how hard it was to extract that little rodent? Poor old thing’s in a serious way with the old-timers disease, and was addressing everyone as someone else! He kept calling me “George” and getting down on all fours and following me around. You just try lugging the chaise longue out the hallway with that hanging onto your ankles!
As for Mrs Rodent, the horse tranquilisers were wearing off a bit and every now and then she’d start kicking and screaming and wouldn’t let us lift the rugs. She’d throw herself in the way and howl something unrepeatable about those “kruddy socialists” taking over “her” country. Mate, she went right off!
But despite all the problems, the job’s done now, and the Rodents are now removed, and just in time too, because the fumigation guy turned up just as we pulled out with the last load. He reckoned it was pretty bad, 11 years of rodent excretia everywhere, all through the place, and it had even spread pretty badly in the MSM too. Poor bloke reckoned it was going to take him months and months, but eventually we’d all get to smell the roses again.
Ah, it felt like fresh air, as we drove away.
KR
The show ended after the introduction of no fault divorce.
Score one for Gough!
429
grace pettigrew Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Grace: I’ve never been on another blog except for Tim Dunlop’s. A couple of entries published by dear Matt Price a few months ago. Yes I’ve read all the entries.
Refer to my previous statement: As has already been stated by several well thought out commentaries here, this is a matter for the court which must take in all sorts of mitigating circumstances.
Mens rea has been mentioned, and this one is obviously open to dispute re indigenous communities.
No point in trying to have a go at Vera, matelots never lose the plot.
My final word on the issue: The media exists to create controversy (that’s what makes them money), not to provide facts. Facts are incidental. That’s why whatever it says must be treated with caution until the facts are determined. ‘Nuff said.
This honeymoon poll of 59/41 may well be the high water mark what with this sort of behaviour from the new government reported today. Are they so scared of the perception of difference that they will sacrifice one of the most potent symbols of the howard lies to expedience? Oh dear, oh dear. If this proves correct, then shame, Rudd, shame!
Soon we’ll be relying on Bob Brown again like when Kim was leader for expressions of decent values and truth about the terrorist bull#hit.
“Hicks lawyer hits out at ‘draconian’ control order”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/11/2115519.htm
GG: Ah Gough….makes me want to stand and bow just thinking of him.
“Acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard”….almost causes the same reaction as Gough…[bows again - just not quite so low]
435
vera Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Min
Both my husband and i were also in the Navy.
And Aye to all good matelots.
Most definitely about no spare ships. Son J was on HMAS Tobruk or as it was known in the ’80’s the too-broke (still is!), 2 tours to the Gulf and 2 tours to East Timor including onshore with the Feds. Now on the Armidales. He’s a 6 year man and signing up for more.
Well yes, who would want to join the ADF when they can earn double the amount working on mine-sites. Son is currently owed over 80 days leave which he can’t take as there is no one to take his place.
GG at 434: “If you bother checking what I have contributed on this matter, you will see that what you have written is a lie. Would appreciate a withdrawal.”
Not sure what you are talking about GG. You wrote this at 381: “What they should get is somewhere between what they got and Glen’s execution solution.”
Well our PM did know the following facts which ARE INDISPUTABLE
1/ the defendants did plead GUILTY to rape
2/ 3 defendants were adults , one being 26
3/ the victim was 10
4/ the Judge said ‘ the 10 year old probably consented to sex
5/ NONE of the adult defendants got a custodial sentence
What other “facts” do you need to put the adults in jail ???
Clearly our PM did not need any further facts nor would 99% of the public
PS
Lawyers FG & Adrian would defend Judges mythical wisdom even if a Judge
ruled that John Howard had never lied
KR,
Are you sure they’re gone, all of them?
Kirribilli Club: A young and buzzy bunch are drawn to this old-new club with harbour views and chic surrounds.
scaper… Says:
December 11th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Hi Min
Glad to see you here blogocrat.
Hello scaps. Well, it’s you who are to blame having suggested that I should choof over and have a look at William’s site.
My concern is a judicial ruling which suggests that a child could have been a consenting party. As previously stated, this is the paedophile’s defence – the child consented/the child had previous sexual experience/sexual encounters are part of the child’s culture.
451
This is not good at all.
If the person is rehabilitated, then by all means let him get on with his life.
But then again, there might be more than meets the eye at this point, so let it play out and if the government is remiss….well there is ways to make a protest.
I think that’s a jaundiced view, jaundiced view. The A-G is the top legal officer in the land and must act with the law in mind and on the advice of the federal police. Hicks pleaded guilty to a terrorism charge. Yes, everyone knows it was all overblown and political, but you can’t expect the A-G to pretend that Hicks is completely innocent when legally he isn’t.
439
Ferny Grover,
Bronnie Bishop was a Barrister prior to entering the Senate.
Vera at 424: “Seems to me it took half a dozen posts from Ron before Grace would even admit that all the rapists weren’t kids themselves and that one was 26. So the argument she was making that they being kids (I think she even suggested an excuse for them that they may have been drinking) was blown out of the water.”
This is a complete fabrication vera dear, and the inane giggle at 438 shows you are really not paying attention, or came to this conversation far too late.
re -BB was Barrister
Knew it!!! Sophie has been made in the same mould.
Min
I don’t agree at all with a child being developed enough in body or mind, but at this point the onus is on the system to rectify this injustice….and if this does not ensue…do you think that I won’t be screaming here or anywhere else???
Bligh will get it sorted I reckon.
What some are saying is if 3 adult white guys rapes a white 10 year old girl ,
and the Judge says the 10 year old probably consented to sex ,
and the Judge lets the 3 white adults go free …
Then the PM should not comment , Anna Bligh should not comment ,
We the public should not denounce the Judge
NO !…. we sit quietly and let the Judicial system hopefully sort it out
waiting for feedback
Now Ron, you’ve gone and made me breach my own ‘Nuff said order.
You’re being mischievious and misrepresenting what has been said. If you read my comments throughout this discussion you would know that I, and others, have specifically not defended anything but have simply appealed for the facts to be determined. As to what those facts are, read my earlier posts. What you are relying on is media reports. These are not facts. But now I’m repeating myself.
aspidistra -
isn’t the point that even when someone is guilty that once they have served their sentence that their punishment should be over.
Thanks Scorpio, I didn’t know that. As I said, my knowledge of the Libs pre political life is scant.
Ron,
You’re wanted over at Bolter’s site, urgently.
FG get your facts straight
It was the PM Kevin Rudd who said the decision was appalling.
(I happen to agree with him)
The adults pleaded GUILTY to raping a 10 year old and walked free…
They are the indisputable facts which is why the PM correctly said its appalling