Roy Morgan’s first face-to-face poll of the Rudd era shows Labor with a predictably bloated two-party lead of 60.5-39.5. Read all about it here.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Roy Morgan’s first face-to-face poll of the Rudd era shows Labor with a predictably bloated two-party lead of 60.5-39.5. Read all about it here.
561 Comments
Rudd has been performing sensationally since becoming P.M. One of Morgan’s more accurate f to f polls.
BTW, I think I’m first?
Quick, call a double dissolution.
Bull butter
Am I the only one who finds it bizarre that according to Morgan’s poll, 60% of people think the coalition will win the next election? Can anyone think of a reason for this?
The Widening?
Daniel @4
Perhaps its the Australian peoples inate sense of humour
Yes Daniel. I think Morgan has got them the other way round? No way people could think the liberals will win the next election. Especially with Mr 14% Nelson as leader. Much lower than Crean LOL.
I’m not that surprised really.
The media told the relatively uninformed that it was close, and they voted (accordingly) conservatively – most populations are change-adverse as a general rule.
Those late swingers are a fickle group too, obviously.
The post election performance by the Libs will have left a very dirty taste in the mouth of relatively commited Liberal voters; liars are liars.
The post election performance by Labour has been exemplary.
Hence back to the stratospheric poll levels from earlier in the year. Even though the elction didn’t turn out that way, polling has told us for 12 months that people wanted something to happen.
It happened…
The sky hasn’t fallen in…
They’re happy (shock horror).
If the ALP implement at the current pace then I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t rise further. The ACT and QLD libs are doing nothing for the conservative cause.
Incedentally:
“A major parcel of land in Canberra’s CBD has been sold for $92 million by public auction today (Dec 14), achieving what is believed to be an Australian record for a property sold at auction” (Property Council)
I spoke to a connected banker who indicated that the govenment change has had no negative impact whatsoever in his circles.
I suggested to him that demographically the electorate’s mood for change could be interpreted as a move away from the stable ‘risk adverse’ culture to a more risk tolerant one. He suggested it was possible.
It’ll be interesting to see tha markets response to Leightons (property buyer) because the price paid was roughly 50% higher than the pack envisioned.
If the bookies started betting on the next election, I reckon it would be 1.33 and 3.20.
Morgan picked the election pretty well, so it’s probably accurate.
On those figures Labor would win a DD in a hyper landslide and win control of the senate. Something for the coalition senators to consider when they vote on the government’s legislation.
Ah, I think you’re right Centre. If you look at the other Morgan poll, the numbers are reversed. I was starting to worry that the Australian population were even more fickle than I thought.
here’s a synopsis of an insider at the McEwen recount
- a full recheck of the primary votes has occurred over the past 3 days – a second recheck is now to occur starting tomorrow
- there will then be a check and re-check of the distribution of the preferences
- about 1% (very rough figure) of the ballots have been challenged and a final determination will be made in Melb at a later date (presumably next week sometime)
- the libs have more scrutineers than labor
- for every one ballot being challenged by labor scrutineers, about 5 or 6 are being challenged by the lib scrutineers
- there are as much as 50 primary votes (perhaps much more) that have clearly been assigned to the wrong candidate
- many of the other challenged ballots will probably stay in the same ‘pile’
- on the basis of all of this, there is strong possibility that the result COULD be turned around
Is bullshit on the banned list, or do we have to continue to put up with Glen’s annoying variation?
And Spiros, is “hyper-landslide” yours? I quite like the sound of it – a bit like an avalanche on red cordial, perhaps.
Boll i use bullbutter not as a curse word but as a word i use to mean unbelievable or crazy.
Any poll that has one side at 60% should be viewed very cautiously.
The poll result was 53/47 this is a 7% swing on top of that = bull butter IMHO.
We need to redistribute seats so that each seat has 70 to 75 thousand people having seats like McEwen with over 100,000 is not democratic. Sure this would mean more seats and who knows who this would favour probably Labor but 85,000+ electorates are a bad thing for democracy how on earth can one person represent 85-100,000 people???
Remember Morgan F2F had 62/38 TPP a week before the election.
Glen – was the poling all year wrong too, or was it a real representation given the circumstances?
No the polls galaxy, newspoll were on the money but AC and Morgan were off target onimod.
Morgan should really be viewed with a grain of salt IMHO.
Glen (14) I doubt we want the federal parliamentary population to increase in line with the general community.
1 person can represent 100K of people on federal issues – if the federal government isn’t fiddling with local issues, and you can go to your state member to moan about schools/roads/hospitals
Glen – how do you know they were off target?
We’re talking about the whole year, not just the last week guesses.
I think the point is that it’s undemocratic having such a wide variation in number of enrolled voters per seat, and 100,000 does seem pretty big to me.
Centre @ 9
Centrebet are actually already running a book on the next federal election – they have the ALP at 1.16 and ‘any other party’ at 4.60.
Not sure what kind of nutcases are prepared to take 16% profit over three years for the ALP but there you go.
19
onimod – when Morgan had Labor consistently at higher than 56-44 and the result being 53-47 id call that off the same with AC who had their results between 55-45 and 60-40 id say that’s a fair way off too.
Glen
The problem is that you’re comparing apples with oranges.
If there’s one thing we all learned is that voting intention changes with proximity to an election, and a bunch of other factors.
I just don’t see how anyone can claim a poll is wrong – every poll tells you something.
No pollster, as far as I know, sets up the exact conditions to match an electoral booth.
It’s more of a case that the question they’re asking is wrong.
You’re assuming, and maybe some polsters are too, that they’re matching an electoral result – they’re not.
The average poll is measuring confidence, which doesn’t necessarily translate to action.
The telling result from the poll, clearly not noise, is the ‘heading in the right direction’ result, and if that is clearly moving, why wouldn’t the overall confidence?
Boll says
“Is bullshit on the banned list, or do we have to continue to put up with Glen’s annoying variation?”
I’ve got quite used to it – somehow a large 2pp lead to the ALP would not be complete without Glen’s folksy rejoiner.
Work to rule, we all love redneck jargon and this is just a way of responding to another terrible poll for my side of politics.
25
Amen to that Glen – and I like your attitude!
Hey i wonder when newspoll will do a proper post opinion poll???
But the real polls to watch will be in Feb next year, maybe Brendan will be Mr 20% by then.
60-40, dare I say we have seen these numbers before.
Rudd has had a good start to his PMship, while the Liberals have flopped into a heap.
I agree with Glen, I feel out HoR seats are too large, this is one reason why I believe scrapping the State’s and using the state electorate maps, which could be used without abolishing the States.
I recognize that the this would cause a malapposition between the various states but would have the added advantage of swifting the majority of seats away from Victoria and NSW.
For both sides of politics the sooner Turnball takes over the better.
At the moment Rudd has no opposition and nelson is obsructing the liberals from taking a serious look at their morally challenged right wingers.
If Turnball took over it would provide some substaintive opposition and trigger a much need internal debate between the “libs” and the “loops”.
I am inclined also to your view BMV after all the States are just a joke, they never get in the media at all except for transport and how bad our hospitals are. State politics is a dead horse.
What’s wrong with Glen being original ‘bullbutter’ at least that’s better than Howards haters calling a Rodent eventhough it was Liberal Senator Bandis who created that title.
Glen can claim to being more original than anything Howard produced in his last term.
If Turnbull is our leader there wont be that much opposition either WTR maybe less lol!
Anyway Turnbull wants to be PM not an Opposition Leader, hence Brendan.
I have always thought what polls like these one, that is ones with extremely wild results, is that a lot people are ashamed to admit who they are willing to vote for. Certainly the result would not be 60-40 at any election but the ALP would clearly be in the lead by a long way and around about 10-15% of Liberal votes are too ashammed to admit that they would vote that way. Which does not suggest smooth sailing for Nelson.
Bullbutter reminds me of a bi-product of stud season…gross.
Denial is no way forward, as I want the libs to be an option for the voters at the next election.
Democracy is paramount.
I just got the Melbourne ‘Age’ and the front page is the Q’ld child’s rape case
The ‘Age’ reports everyone now is running for cover: the Child Safety Officers , Local Mayor , the Police , the local Media , some Aboriginal leaders , Politicians ,
Crown Prosecutor in Cairns is stood down & the Judge still thinks she is right
The Newspapers have “News” to fill their pages
and I continue to support the PM’s statement that the decision is appalling ”
that a 26 year old can rape a 10 year old and walk free in 21st Century Australia
IF , IF , IF those who are running for cover and those who worry about the Judge were to simply accept the gross injustice done to this child ,
THEN EVERYONE may finally start looking at ‘why did it happen’
AND THEN ‘why this is this only an example of aboriginal sex abuse’
AND THEN why this is only a window part of a larger picture of failed aboriginal policys by all Governments including the Aboriginees themselves
What are the solutions. Obviously a few blog lines are insufficent.
Starting points to address may be:
Attitude & Perspectives : by black and by white seem wide
Reconciliation :means different things to black & white
Vision;what do Elders teach kids to aspire to and aspire for , how to achieve this
Culture: are kids to be fully ‘westernised’ & if not what culture will they have
Land rights: Elders & Governments need to bring the issue to final conclusion
Location: many settlements are remote so adequate services delivery is too hard
Community-wide unemployment:guarantees the current generation is lost & next
Health , Optical & Dental: free mandatory checks for at least the kids
if this requires free transport , do it
Police: have massive presence everywhere with police trained on social issues
Education opportunities & attendance: relies on solving other issues
Welfare; some linkage of payments to obligations seems inevitable
Legal: which mix if any is to apply
I guess there are enough points listed for some blogers to take shots
Face to face polls are a complete waste of time. End of story
sigh. Ron. This issue, or rather series of issues, is very complex. Ain’t no way it could or should be addressed here. Trust me on this.
Ron
This thread is discussing the issue.
http://blogs.news.com.au/news/blogocracy/index.php/news/comments/long_term_solutions_for_aboriginal_communities/
Old habits die hard. This result would give Labor 121 seats on a uniform swing.
#34 thanks Scaper, thought it was just my perverted mind.
This is way OT but this statement by James Connaughton, Chairman of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, at Bali requires airing.
“We will lead, we will continue to lead. But leadership also requires others to fall in line and follow,”
So we all fall in line with US leadership, do we?
Extended report at:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071213/ts_nm/bali_thursday_dc
According to the Urban dictionary.
bullbutter – the word an asshole uses when he wants to be an ass.
“Not sure what kind of nutcases are prepared to take 16% profit over three years for the ALP but there you go.”
Spot on.
Willia, could we have no more on the Qld rape case please? It has nothing at all to do with the topic of this blog.
Willia = William
Charlie
Gee, it would be crowded on the government benches.
Room for a snooker table on the other side…but alas, it would be a game of dirty pool.
When will they learn???
Glen it is much more likely that Horatio will be ZERO % by Feb. He is a dead man walking, with absolutely no cred either in the Parliament or in the eyes of the public.
I believe this has some merit.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22924634-29277,00.html
Scaper, I see in the same article that Smirky has refused to commit to serving a full term. We may see a few resignations in the near future so that they maximise their super payouts, methinks.
In response to the new poll, and the reaction of many on this blog…
I am not a Brendan Nelson fan. I really don’t know what he stands for,and if I did, I probably wouldn’t agree with it.
But let’s be sensible here. Remember that John Howard was once decried as “Mr 18% – why does this man bother?”. No Liberal leader could possibly expect to get a good approval rating at the moment. The Rudd Government appears to be calmly implementing its policies, and respecting due process, and there are few inroads any Opposition could make now. The latest poll is entirely to be expected.
But there’s still the prospect of a recession (unlikely, but possible) in Australia, and in that case, Labor would risk losing power. The Libs only need a small swing. At least a wishy-washy bloke like Nelson wouldn’t introduce a radical plan like Fightback (which was the only reason Keating survived in 1993 in a recession).
Where I think the Liberals need a re-think is on their attitude to the public sector. They have this mantra that the private sector can always do it better, and we must cut government spending.
This has led to situations in various states where voters haven’t been happy with the amount of funding going to hospitals, schools, public transport etc, yet the alternative government is always promising further cuts. Menzies understood the need for a government to provide solid basic services, as well as to encourage a healthy private sector, particularly small business.
Also, most people don’t like unfair dismissal laws, which allow people to be dismissed unfairly. They want small business to have the right to discuss under-performing employees, but not to rip off those who do a good job.
As the father of teenage children doing part-time jobs, it astounds me what employers think they can get away with these days, like promising shifts and then cancelling them at the last minute because business is quiet, or having an entire workforce as casual labour. It’s “flexibility” for sure, but we’re creating a younger generation which has no loyalty to employers, and a mindset of going to another job whenever you get a bit fed up with the present one. This stuff all works quite well while there’s a labour shortage, but come the recession, the shit will hit the fan in a very messy way.
Let’s not have hubris yet!
sorry 10th line from the bottom of my previous post should read “dismis under-performing employees”.
Basil
I too think this is the case, but from where I sit , generational change is good for regrowth.
The tip should melt into the sunset as he represents the past.
or even “dismiss”.
BF and Scaper
All Tip wants, all he’s ever wanted, is to be PM, so I think he’s hedging his bets to see what happens and if the Liberals continue on their trajectory toward long-term bickering and despair he’ll leave the back bench and go off to make some serious money. He doesn’t have the will to be leader of her maj’s opposition.
60.5 – 39.5, that’s what I’d expect for a new government “honeymoon” poll. I’m sure if Newspoll, ACN or even Galaxy did a poll now it’ll show a jump in support for Labor.
I’m surprised the vote counting isn’t completed yet. According to AEC only 94.76 of the primary vote and 94.16 of the two party preferred has been counted so far … and this is almost three weeks after the election! In NZ it only takes them a couple of weeks to count all the votes. Still this is the first Australian election I’ve followed closely and perhaps I’m underestimating how long it takes to count up all the votes.
Finally has anyone had a look at ABC Elections? Antony Green now lists Labor as having won 83 (not 84) seats … apparently in McEwen the Liberals are ahead again with around 50.9% of the TPP.
Speaking of recessions, where were the credit rating agencies when the thunder clouds were gathering in the US? And how the hell did the supposed wunderkinder with all their MBA’s and computer models ever get to be in charge of the banking asylum. They have obviously violated every rule in the banking handbook with their lending practices. We have a much better chance of surviving a recession with Labor in power anyway, as opposed to the neo-cons and assorted right wing loonies in the Tories.
Are there any right leaning blogs out there? If so, maybe Glen can tootle off over to it for a while.
Basil
If we go into recession, Labor would be the better party to lead us through it and large scale infrastructure projects would fill the employment void.
So all in all, the future looks bright and it feels great!
Kiwi pundit @ 55
Not sure where you got that info re McEwen now favouring the libs – no one is doing any ongoing count for the recount. All disputed ballots are to be sent to Melb for final determination – so no accurate result will be known until mid to late next week.
Not even the scrutineers are able to determine numbers of votes going either way – besides they havent even got close to doing a distribution of preferences in the recount
Kiwi,
I think you’ll find that the 94.76% represents a percentage of the total enrolment, and that now all votes have been counted. If there are any outstanding, they are likely to be votes in dispute in the McEwen recount. The reason for the lesser 2PP percentage is probably the fact that declarations of the poll have not yet been held for all electorates, so that distribution of preferences may lag a little in places.
While Antony can speak for himself, I’m sure that the 2PP figures you quote for McEwen relate to an earlier stage of the count. If Fran Bailey leads with 50.9% of the vote, that would imply a margin in excess of 1,700 votes – inconceivable the way the count has progressed. The AEC has both candidates on 50.00%, consistent with a margin of single-figure votes.
Antony has not allocated McEwen as a Labor gain, no doubt awaiting confirmation (or otherwise) from the recount. Until that occurs it remains a Liberal seat.
With the days counting coming to a close I thought I would report on the progress of teh count and teh joyful news to lift and help you regain your Christmas spirit
Victorian Senate Count is now at 95.45% of the enrolled vote
Whilst there still is a high unproportioned vote waiting to be distributed the counting to date show that the Greens require a super whopping 117% of the available minor party Below-the-line preferences. Well and truly out of reach for teh Greens.
The Greens still have not conceded the election using the Howard defence that they will wait until the official declaration of the poll.
Sadly, yet jofully, the Liberal surplus preferences will not help and will not be distributed as David Feeney will be declared elected earlier in the count.
It is a shame in a way, because had the Liberal preferences been distributed it would have shown up the extent of distortion in the way the AEC counts the votes.
25% of the Liberal Candidates surplus is represented by 8% of the number of ballot papers that originally came from minor parties at full value. Had the Liberal surplus been distributed the minor party vote would have been devalued from 25% down to 8% and Liberal ticket vote, which benefits the Greens, would have increased disproportionally from 75% to 92% in value.
Resulting in a unfair unjust win-fall to the Greens – equivalent to 2508 votes. 2508 votes the Greens do not deserve or merit.
SUMMARY STATISTICS TO DATE
Party, Liberal, ALP, Green, Others (BTL), Total, Quota
Votes, 1376849, 1364169, 413641, 22373, 3177032, 453863
43.338%, 42.938%, 13.020%, 0.704%, 14.286%
Quotas, 3.0336, 3.0057, 0.9114, 0.0493,
Liberal surplus @8:92, 0.0029, 0.0308
% of Minor Party BTL required, 0.0000, 117.4%, 1.0000
Estimated Final Result, 457743, 441033
Statistics on the disproportionate allocation of Liberal “Surplus” Preferences
Value of surplus 15264
% of quota 0.033631075
to ALP 0.008382255
to Greens 0.02524882
Disproportional Ratio 8:92
Minor Party 1296
Liberal Ticket 13968
Total Candidate Surplus 15264
Proportional ratio 25:75
Minor Party 3804
Liberal Ticket 11459
Total Candidate Surplus 15264
Added (distorted) value to Liberal/Green preferences 2508
Kiwipundit 94.76% etc. The difference is those on roll compared with those who voted. The other 4-5% were looking after their sick grandparents, fell down the stairs and were bedridden, got lost interstate and were too far from a central polling place etc or they were good taxpayers contributing some extra revenue..
Is it just me or is the Roy Morgan GCR only slightly more accurate than me polling my cat and house plants?
scaper,
The git leopard tip no iceberg has not changed his spots. Sniping at his comrades in arms when he didn’t have the guts to do anything about it is the act of a dingo (apologies to dingoes).
Peter and potato_masher,
This is the information I got on the ABC Elections site:
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2007/results/latest.htm
When I scrolled down to McEwen it had the TPP at 50.9%. It may well be an earlier count. If it is, I’m puzzled as to why McEwen is not included as an “In Doubt” ot “too close to call” seat on the ABC site.
With due respect to Antony, the ABC is not in charge of counting the votes. The AEC website is where you need to look. All there is to know about McEwen at the moment is that the recount is in progress. You’ll just have to wait and see.
I guess the Morgan Poll is more important than Aboriginal problems
So Gary Morgan in his “expert political analysis” of the 60.5%-39.5% says:
“What Brendan Nelson and his colleagues need to understand is the reasons why they lost the election, especially the role the Reserve Bank (RBA) played.”
Hello Gary , was this the major factor ?
PS/
On the “are we going in the right direction” ,
64% said yes , 16.5% said No and 19.5% said they did not know
So according to Gary , 19.5% are lost
This is not a site for discussing Aboriginal problems.
Please Mr. Shanahan, let my people go.
“By ratifying the Kyoto Protocol, Rudd set himself apart from the Howard government’s refusal to do so, but apart from that Australia’s approach hardly changed at all. Because of a lack of political will and preparedness, John Howard allowed himself to be painted as a climate change denier who was trailing Labor by light years. In fact, there was only a slight difference between policies”.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/dennisshanahan/index.php/theaustralian/comments/rudd_fends_off_ambush_with_a_nod_to_howard
Just for the record…..the term Bull Butter first originated in the US of A Senate, when the Senate Dairy block vehmently opposed the introduction of margarine into the market place, back in the late 20’s, early 30’s I think.
It was used in an obviously degratory way to describe the introduction of the yellow “grease” that was threatening their livelihood.
So, Glenn’s frequent use of it is generally appropriate to the context of his view of other people’s opinion and not a “religious” version of bullsh*t.
On the other hand, at times, Glen could be described as a Butter Ball product, but I’ll let you look that one up.
Cheers and Merry Xmas to all from the beautiful Tropics, NSMM.
It is not included in the doubtful category because I changed the settings. If you check the AEC site, you will find that all the 2PP counts have been removed for McEwen. What you’re getting on the ABC site at the moment is a set of preference estimates pre-loaded from before polling day, some basic formulas used on election night before any preference counts are received. As Adam says, use the AEC site for details of what’s going on in McEwen. I know the AEC had to change their software two days ago to supress the 2PP. I can’t be bothered re-configuring the entire ABC system at this late stage to cope with a re-count. It will fix itself when the re-count is finally released.
Just to clarify that, if I change the settings to put McEwen back into doubtful, then every seat currently closer than the count in the ABC computer for McEwen will also become doubtful. One of the consequences of completely automating the decision formulas.
The whole small business thing:
Are the Liberals small business support a good or bad thing for them at the moment?
68
The Finnigans
Oh my god, that Shamahan is making it up again! Who’d ever have thought it possible, eh?
Howard was on all fours sniffing behind George Bush, Rudd on the other hand has declared to the international community that the US is a laggard and must get with the rest of us.
No small difference there?
As for not nailing down targets, Rudd is being true to the commitment he made to the electorate on making the assesments with Garnaut and Treasury (if he was able to) and that’s precisely how he’s playing it.
Meanwhile, Howard fibbed and fudged about our rocketing emmissions and did one of his trademark lies ie, that we were doing OK by Kyoto standards. Yeah, only if you thought increasing carbon dioxide output by 30% over 1990 levels was a reasonable thing to be doing.
The big Sham is a disgraceful excuse for a journalist, and a wretched camp follower for a defeated political party.
73 Kirribili- Have you detected a change in the GGs leanings since the election? I have found that Paul Kelly and Shama have been a bit more even handed. It has helped that Overies has been given a holiday. I can pick up the GG without feeling the need to put it through the nearest shredder now. I think Rupert told them to start playing nicely with his new friend Kevin.
74
Diogenes
To tell you the truth Diogenes, I’ve hardly looked at the accursed rag since the election, and only beforehand for a laugh. You may be right, but my general feeling is that the zietgiest has well and truly changed since Rudd did slay the Jabbawocky. In just a few short weeks the Liberals have become a thing of derision, their mythological status has been well and truly exposed as crappola, and we’ve all moved on to the important stuff. No doubt this even permeates the brains of card carrying conservatives like Shamahan, and they’ll end up following the rest us in good time.
I think the expression is ‘tipping point’, and we hit it well and truly, and tipped the lot of them out in the process. The rusted on are just a lot slower to catch on, eh?
Oh dear not more bitching about The Australian, you’d think it was the only news source in Australia. If you’re stupid enough to buy it, at least spare us your shock and amazement at discovering over and over again that it’s a Liberal propaganda rag. Are you incapable of learning this fact?
Adam,
surely the fact that the Oz is the nation’s only national newspaper gives it enough status to be worthy of criticism for it’s obvious editorial bias. In the same way as the ABC cops it from both sides for her perceived leanings. It ’s about media integrity and have a reliable news source, and we have been sadly lacking this from the print media, with the slavish devotion of the national newspaper to the previous governnment.
(God, i love saying “previous”).
I’ll be a lot happier when he cuts and runs with supr stuffed pockets. If he hasn’t resigned by the end of March he probably won’t but will sit back while someone else does the heavy lifting and then challenge.
Now if only Dolly would take the hint and POQ, but lets face it the bloke is virtually unemployable – there aren’t a lot of villages looking for an idiot these days.
I think those in the media and here who are wishing for Turnbull to take over the leadership of the Libs now are making a big mistake. If he did so, he would be a (possibly) progressive in a party in which the majority are very conservative, both in the Parliamentary party and in the membership generally, especially in NSW, SA and WA. I think that situation would only lead to more disruption than Nelson currently faces. I think their best hope of reform and recuperation lies in a softly softly approach which Nelson is more likely to provide, if only because he is too witless and politically weak to do otherwise.
I suspect that Rudd and co would like Turnbull to take over sooner rather than later so he can be demolished before the party can build any defences around him. I think next years Parliamentary sittings are going to be brutal for the Coalition.
Are they still a coalition?
Yes Jen but we KNOW all that already, it’s been said THOUSANDS of times here this year. Why does it need to be said again, every single day? “Oh god I bought The Australian AGAIN and it’s STILL a Liberal rag! I’m so SHOCKED! Maybe it’ll all be different tomorrow.”
Antony,
Has the ABC given you the DCM? your stats are no longer there. Is the election over?
Adam,
I’m 135 over 80: I don’t intend to increase it by reading the Australian (BTB what a crap name, name v content)
Oh Adam,
indulge us lesser mortals occasionally.
After all you have your own little bee about the DLP do you not?
#76. There is a big difference between “bitching” and pointing out the folly of the argument. If you can’t tell the difference, I feel sorry for you.
BTW: have not bought a print newspaper since the browser Mosaic ver. 0.1 made its debut.
“are they still a coalition?”
Question is- do they still have a pulse?
The Oz has average daily sales of approx. 129k………….not really that influential I would of thought
Ah the Libs
http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/
wombat,
Sorry? Is a candidate allowed to scrut?
Mike Cusack, like your thinking. Love the image of Horatio half Nelson reviving and renewing the Libs. What do you think it could do to the polls? Sends note to self: stop giggling.
‘He’s a scrutineer, not a scrote-ineer. He’s meant to be electing his member not erecting his own.’
red womb,
and the answer is?
Apolgolies to wombats of the colour red.
It wasn’t Fran doing it
No a candidate is not allowed to scrutineer
red wombat,
two posits:
1) “Unfortunately, Gran (?) Fran Bailey hasn’t shown the same sense of decency and tact, as he’s still been sighted supervising counting as recently as this morning.”
2) It wasn’t Fran doing it
¿Que?
I will indulge you Jen re the ‘oz’ !
but please do not expect Shanahan to be anything other than a Liberal mouthpiece
whose readership IS mainly Liberal
57
cleanfred – now i know how Andrew Bolt and co feel to have people saying you shouldn’t have free speech unless it’s left wing…this is the real world fred not lala land where only left wingers reside.
Andrew Bolt works for the Herald which is another Liberal rag
The media is mainly right wing
The Age is great
Bull Butter Ron
Why aren’t you forgetting the Canberra Times????
During this Election , I had some free time to waste so I taped the first 10 minutes of ALL 4 TV stations News services and then compared their coverage for balance
Channel 9: cut and pasted adversely alot of Rudd’s sentences either changing their value or Rudd’s reasons for a particular issue
whereas Howard’s clips always contained a full sentence at least reflecting his view and its reasons
I provided John Westacott director of 9 News with numerous examples but of course got no reply
7 favored the Libs significantly but not as badly or blatantly as 9
10 were even handed but light on detail (young audience
ABC like 10 were even handed but unlike 10 gave more detail
I had not noticed 7 or 9 bias in previous elections
Glen, you seem to have forgotten who won the election, now we get to say who is biased, and we get to revise history and stack the ABC Board. You guys had your turn!
Ron most of the TV News was heavily pro-Rudd, Channel 9 was clearly pro-Rudd as was 10 in fact 7 was more balanced as was the ABC compared to 9 and 10. Paul B. and Laurie Oakes voted for Rudd on election day that’s for sure.
Glen, two words, BULL BUTTER.
Mike Cusack i agree.
Keating destroyed Downer so he was replaced by Howard
Whitlam destroyed Snedden so he was replaced by Fraser
be careful for what one wishs
Tell me with a straight face that Oakes and Paul B are tories! They are Labor voters through and through they just dont have the guts to say this on air.
Ron i am allowed to say who is biased! Just because we lost doesnt mean i cant say whether the media have been biased as they have been to Brendan Nelson undermining him at every stage.
My picks of the News Media…
Pro Rudd Camp
Channel 9
Channel 10
Balanced/Leaning Rudd
ABC
Balanced/Leaning Howard
Channel 7
Godness, Glen, aren’t you guys going to haveto come up with something else other than media bias or failure to “renew” according to Tip?
Doesn’t Senator Macdonald realise the WA LIbs and Nats are no longer in a coalition and will never become one.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22924634-5005361,00.html
Im not blaming the media entirely for our loss, even though they were partly to blame but obviously they alone did not cause us to lose, we just got past our used by date that’s all.
01
Basil Fawlty Says: now we get to say who is biased, and we get to revise history
so Basil can we rewrite history to show Howard was the worst Treasurer in History
I mean he scored the trifecta:
11% inflation,22% interest rates and 11% unemployment in 1982 ?
Glen, Horatio does not need anyone to undermine him, he does it all on his lonesome. In fact I think he earned his doctorate in that very subject.
Interesting West Poll of 400 voters had the Tories up in WA 52-48 may have been a bull butter poll but still better news for the Tories even with a shocking leader!
I cann’t the Nationals merge with the Greens with the united Party’s policys remaining all ‘greens’ and prefs all to Labor
Yes Ron, I think it is already happening. I can also recall in a past life when I was intimately involved in the tax industry there was a little scam known as bottom of the harbour, which of course flourished under the tutelage of King Rat.
Basil , ‘bottom of the harbour’ ??
I thought thats where I thought the Libs through their equity & compassion values
‘threw’ as well
The Nats are a dead force in politics they hold a rump of 10 mainly inland seats.
The Liberal Party holds more rural seats than them and yet the Nats are somehow more representative of the ‘country’.
Having 10 seats out of potentially 65 and yet holding the Deputy Opposition Leadership is a joke IMHO.
The only problem is some Rural group probably Katter will start up a so called ‘Country Party’ which could split the Tory votes in those areas in QLD and NSW. I dont think that Malle and Gippsland will be too hard for a combined Tory party to hold IMHO.
Glen, couldn’t agree more, and the sooner that swill of a party are consigned to the dustbin the happier I will be!
Before they became the ‘national’ party , the Country Party was socialists for Farmers production in wheat , wool etc. all production bought by the Government
I mean most of our seats are rural semi rural seats and yet we’re somehow not the voice of rural Australia. The Liberal Party is more the party of rural areas not the Nats anyway i dont think people would be unhappy about having a Liberal MP than a Nats MP.
I mean im glad Brendan took Trade off them but for gods sake they lost 2 seats they held many more that they hold are marginal and they didnt get Flynn almost a shoe in seat on paper.
The only trouble is some Nats like the QLD Nats probably wont agree and splinter and what to do with naming a single Tory party???
Conservative Party of Australia
United Australia Party (the 1930s/40s)
All for Australia Party
???????
Labors vote will go UP when the Nationals die because most farmers still see it as a Country Party looking after THEIR interests only
Glen, possum, wee one, and so forth, you’ve got to get one concept under you belt before you go to bed tonight. Blaming is BAD, it’s DYSFUNCTIONAL. Once you stop blaming other people for what goes wrong in your life, then you can begin to do things that make your life different. I’m sure there are therapists out there you can access.
Rats Still On A Sinking Ship Party?
Silly Party?
VERY VERY SILLY PARTY, now that has a nice ring.
Harry I am sure there’s a therapists out there you can access.
Could he consult John Howard’s Harry & bulk bill
Ron, Glen, Basil,
I know… you’re on topic, but … are you arguing about the stats or their interpretation, trying to change each others’ views, or what?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m ROTLFLMAO: keep going, but consider William’s download costs.
(William, again, please tell me how to contribute other than through PayPal)
Did any of you guys get deflated by the change in Polls from the weekend before the Election (Labor 54-46 minimum)
to the 2 Polls only 4 days later of 52-48 (& Morgan 53.50 – 46.50 from 55-45) ???
Viggo, just having a bit of sport, flushing out the pheasants don’t you know. Such jolly fun, and yes I have contributed my share to W Bowe Esq bandwidth fund.
Ron, no, I kept the faith as my postings on election day prove.
ViggoP , just do not sit their in the ‘grandstand’ being a critic
Get onto the playing field and tell us what you think
#
127
Basil Fawlty Says:
December 15th, 2007 at 12:21 am
Ron, no, I kept the faith as my postings on election day prove.
Basil , I may have given the wrong impression
I never doubted Rudd would win due mainly to workchoices , climate & Howard retiring and so removing any reason for ’swingers’ to vote FOR him
But I was deflated as for 9 months it looked like a landslide and it was taken away at the last 48 hours to a sound win (but less than Hawke’s 2PP of 53.3%)
Ron. I don’t bulk bill.
update on the mcewen recount
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/lib-resurrection-hopes-grow/2007/12/14/1197568264999.html
Oh the powers of the Australian Building and Construction Commission.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bystander-feels-bite-of-construction-watchdog/2007/12/14/1197568264933.html
Wish centrebet would open a book on the recount.
It should be an interesting resumption of Parliament now that Labor will have access to all the Defence Dept papers concerning the buzz bombs, sorry, FA-18 Hornets. Will be fun to see Horatio squirm in his seat as the expert opinions are trotted out.
I can’t afford the grandstand but I’m happy to shout from the peanut gallery. I can say with HH that I have never voted liberal, but I try to vote for parties or people who have a social conscience and that means that my preferences will usually go to Labor. I see very little value in the reactionary parties’ postulation that there is a drip down effect if you give lots of our tax money to the rich: the government is there to look after those who cannot look after themselves, if that means increasing the public service to employ those who are otherwise unemployable that’s fine by me.
Also, infrastructure of assets to provide services to the taxpayers should be in the hands of the government (comms hardware, for example). Goods can be provided by the private sector on a commercial basis, regulated to ensure competition.
134
Basil Fawlty – There is just as much evidence that will support Dr Nelson so i dont see the big deal???
Plus the Indonesians are only getting in total 8 SU30s we’ll have 24 F-18Fs plus our other F18s i dont see there being any problems. And if thats the worst you’ve got on the previous government id stick to trying to manage the economy. Oh and Basil i dont see Labor having any policy on the issue, typical gutless ALP attacking us for governing and preventing a gap in our air defence and Labor without its own policy on the issue!
Swan is such a novice anything he says on the economy is all oh we’ve got to stop inflationary pressures so that pressures to the economy will be reduced WTF does this have to do with Labors policies Wayne!
re: James J @ # 131
James,
That link doesn’t contain any update on McEwen recount, only wishful thinking by a defeated former Minister.
Glen, tell that to the Air Force, numbers don’t count when your enemy can see further than you can and fly faster and further. we are not fighting the Battle for Britain now.
Glen
This is the sort of thing Australians voted against when they went to the polls last month:
More at: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/even-bystanders-feel-building-watchdogs-bite/2007/12/14/1197568264669.html
Dear oh dear, Glen, you’re going to have to get your head around the fact you’re in Opposition. I love the Locum giving advice to Rudd about what to do as the PM. Himself indoors and me laugh like drains. He’s gone to bed, but I’m still cackling.
139
Basil Fawlty – have you read the specs of the F18Fs they have better radar than SU27s can easily take them plus they have better stealth capabilities, and plus these are Indonesians we’re talking about i bet our fighter pilots are far better than theirs.
Basil 8 just 8 SU30s i mean for petes sake here 8 SU30s against our entire airforce yeah we’re in real danger mate!
140
Albert Ross – these things need to be investigated i dont see the problem with him being questioned he didnt do anything wrong so he’d have nothing to fear.
Harry get over yourself of course i know we’re in Opposition!
Geez Albert, that is scary stuff. Maybe we can dream up a few similar bodies to interrogate people like Dolly, Hornet and Co.
Glen, that is not what our experts, the Air Force think, and I would imagine they know a bit more than you do, old son.
And as much as I rate our pilots, among the best in the world, I am also reminded that in WW2 lots of people believed the Japs were so short sighted they wouldn’t be able to fly at all, let alone fight. Look how wrong that was!
Not the war planes again!
Although, despite my aversion to such topics if there is any chance of further humiliation for th FORMER (love that) government then I guesss I’ll put up with it.
I am hoping that when Rudd and co. get their hands on the books that the perpetrators of AWB kickbacks, incarceration of innocent refugees , warmongering, climate- change denying bastards get what they deserve – criminal trials.
There must be a few disgruntled public servants out there who can’t wait to blow a whistle.
re the Nationals
they are not a seperate voice for country Australia……. they are in a long term decline on an election basis…….10 seats with only 5 safe from Labor and
popular independents.
Their problem is that they cannot act independently of the libs…. because they are trapped into supporting the conservative side of politics no matter what.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE LIBS CHALLENGE IN THE REMAINING “SAFE SEATS”?
Jen
AWB is one of the prime reasons that terror laws, eg, offering support to a terror organisation were not backdated. Hicks could have been brought back to Australia and charged if such laws were made retrospective, however if they did make the laws retro they would have exposed many.
Main one exposed would have been Dolly, the $300 million paid by AWB to Saddam undoubtly went part way to paying the families of some of the suicide bombers in Israel, ie financing terror. A crime now in Oz, but not a retrospective crime.
I doubt that any terror investigation would accept Dolly’s 276 ” I don’t recall, I don’t remember” answers that were accepted by the AWB inquiry. That sort of nonsense of failing memory and dodging responsibility has not helped corporate gentlemen like Bond, Williams and Adler in the past.
But under current laws the only thing Dolly is guilty of is incompetance and/ or stupidity, not actually a crime for one such as Dolly just a sad acknowledgement of facts.
jen said:
Well, at least one hasn’t had one for at least 6 years according to highly reliable reports. As for the rest, I hope not but I wish someone would give them a really hard prod to the chest with a tomato stake just to be sure.
As for Senator McDonald’s assertion that:
The two are different. One is a party of right wing, survival of the fittest capitalists, the other an agrarian socialist, the government owes us a profit party. They only coexist because the latter happily prostitutes itself to the former in return for a modicum of power.
And my sincerest apologies to any working girl who is offended by being compared to the Nats.
Boys’ toys:
Glen @142 – ‘The F18Fs have better radar than SU27s can easily take them plus they have better stealth capabilities, and plus these are Indonesians we’re talking about i bet our fighter pilots are far better than theirs.’
You’re wrong, Glen. Leaving aside the risk of relying on racist assumptions for your national defence, those planes are 1. too slow (slower than counterparts) and 2. have too limited a flying range (can’t make it to any other country without either an aircraft carrier to jump off or a mid-air refuelling, both of which make them sitting ducks). No radar superiority can compensate for that.
Andrew Peacock and his salesmen seem to have done a great snow job on Nelson. Sales people love bosses like Horatio because they’re so vain that they’re easily swayed into ignoring expert advice and insisting they know best, when in fact they know nothing.
It’s just the old sales tactic: find the highest-placed incompetent in the organisation and concentrate your efforts on him (or, less often, her). In this case, Nelson was the target.
I had one boss (temporarily) like that. A big computer company duchessed him into spending millions on their products, all of which had to be junked still in their boxes because they didn’t do – could never do – the job they were bought for.
I wonder: will the F18Fs ever get taken out of their boxes? They’re almost too expensive to fly!
Did everyone see Clarke and Dawe last night “Brendan Nelson” interview and shadows being cast, these guys are the best satirists this country has seen for a very long time!
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/clarkedawe.htm
Jenny @ 151,
“I wonder: will the F18Fs ever get taken out of their boxes? They’re almost too expensive to fly!”
Jenny, saw a couple of ‘em for sale on ebay this morning, Swannie has already started his austerity drive. Might get one for my 5 yo grandson, pretty tricky toy.
Ron at 110
Should be a quintella.
You forgot wages explosion and recession in the Howard Treasury CV!
150 MayoFeral, Yes you should apologise to the working girls, I have met a few in my time and they have a heart and a soul, unlike National Party rednecks.
Arbie Jay -
your explanation fills in some gaps for me – particularly why Hicks wasn’t brought home to avoid all the protests it created at the time.
Surely there are other laws that Downer and his henchmen can be tried under if the facts come to light, apart from Gross Stupidity, which as you say there is no law against.
Should be though – you need to be reasonably intelligent to teach children or perform any other numerous positions in the community, and yet these guys could run the country (into the ground) for 11 years.
I find it remarkable that this Blog is headlined ” Morgan 60.5% – 39.5% ”
yet the discussion has been on David Hicks , AWB and F18 fighters ,
none of which were a “Political” issue in the 2007 Election campaign ,
yet we are not allowed to talk about the cause of the NT Aboriginal intervention
which WAS a ” Political” issue in the Election campaign.
Perhaps its because the defenders of the Cairns Judge & the Judicial system are
now embarassed by their defence of a grave injustice also
Jen
Nothing Dolly can be charged with, even if a record emerged proving he knew more. His defence throughout AWB that he could not recall or could not remember is unbeatable, you cannot prove that someone does recall or does remember.
As I mentioned this did not work for Bond, Williams and Adler, but also with Dolly and AWB there was no crime in offering a bribe and offering financial support to a suspected terror organisation was not a crime at the time.
Dolly did not break any law, plain and simple.
Time to deal with him would have been during Hicks time, should have put him in a prison for a while ala Hicks, whilst they worked out if they could charge him with something. Then he would have got personal experience of his favourite expression busted arse.
158
Ron I agree this blog is one of the most interesting because it facilitates general political discourse in a stimulating but very ad-hoc way, but gets off topic very quickly. Maybe the problem is the “topic” and just how much you can dissect it to death before it morphs into something else.
But that is not our province to dictate.
While Possum provides the outlet currently on your mentioned topic he is not getting the repartee that makes this site interesting.
Ron @ 158, Whilst I agree that the matters of Indigenous welfare are very serious and will possibly represent the success or failure of Kev and Co (at least to me) I am respecting William’s wishes on the matter. Although of course by posting this I am by definition in breach, apologies William.
Meanwhile, back on topic, it seems ridiculous to me to be taking opinion polls now anyway. The new Government has not had a chance to show its true mettle, Parliament has not sat, the silly season is upon us. Give us six months to evaluate how they are going, especially after Swannie’s first budget.
By the way, as many others have commented, I have just learned to stop cringing when I hear a newsreader say “the Prime Minister said today blahdeblah”. I have to keep remembering that it wont be King Rat they are referring to. Interesting psychological phenomena, wonder if the DSM-IV has that listed. Rodentaphobia perhaps, post rat stress disorder, perhaps I can get that cute psych masters grad at work to do some research with me. (Here he drifts off into fantasy)
The threads are moving a lot slower now than before the election which is obviously to be expected. Only so much can be said about this Morgan poll before it is done to death.
An issue which could cause raging debate is that of same sex couple relationships having children which was raised in a previous thread. It is a political issue!
Just been polled by Newspoll– apart from some junk shopping questions were voting intentions both Federally and locally (South Australia)– be interesting to see if Morgans results are duplicated
163
Centre
No, it is most certainly not a political issue, it is a private matter between adults, as it is for everyone else. It is only a political issue to the rabid fundamentalists who think they have a franchise on what is ‘right’.
They don’t!
My first impressions of Roxon as a Health Minister are not favourable, in fact she is almost certainly a moron. Her proposal to start with a $100M fund to increase elective surgery is a joke. There are about 700 hospitals who get the money, with about 50 being large metropolitan ones. Given that their budget is about $400M each, how is $1M going to make any appreciable difference. It will be pocketed gratefully. Roxon also makes the offensive suggestion that hospitals might perform quick-fix, shabby operations to get their hands on the money. So is she suggesting the doctors and nurses just going to take out half the cancer so their administrators can get more funding?
Diogenes,
Whilst I don’t know enough about Roxon to speculate on her IQ, I would agree with you that this proposal is obviously going to have very little effect whatsoever, and could be quite negative in some respects.
Reminds of the stunt Bob Carr pulled when he first got elected in NSW – halving the waiting lists or whatever it was. All that happened was:
- lots of administrator (and doctor) time was wasted arguing about the details of what was to be done, and after the event arguing about the numbers
- there were perverse outcomes because of the imperative to massage the numbers – ie the prioritisation of patients and procedures went off the beam
- a year or two later the whole thing might as well have never happened.
Kirribilli,
Nonesense, of course it is. But yes, it should be a private matter between adults therefore if same sex couples want to have a kid, they should go for it, on their own.
Somehow I don’t like their chances. Maybe they could start by watching that movie with DeVito and Schwarzenegger.
166 & 167
To be fair to Roxon, she is actually only doing what people want, which is to try to shorten waiting lists. The problem is that waiting lists are not the problem. If you require care urgently, you will be seen (for example, a work colleague who had a suspected brain tumour had a biopsy within about a week). To my mind, the problem is that the public want unlimited health care but are not prepared to pay unlimited taxes.
You are both right, though, that if that truly was your aim you would need substantially more than $100m.
gus Says:
“Just been polled by Newspoll”
Thanks Gus for the heads up. I guess the result will probably be out on monday night.
It will be very interesting to see if Newspoll confirms the huge ALP lead indicated by Morgan.
If it does I think the Liberal strategists can give themselves a pat on the back for pulling the ALP 2pp vote down to under 53 at the election.
Although they now face the prospect of trying to do it again but from opposition.
168
Centre
Like I said, in somewhat ironic mode, it’s only ‘political’ for those of a fundamentalist persuasion, who somehow think that their opinions are sanctified by some god almighty force, but are nothing more than bigotry wrapped in sanctimonious claptrap.
Are you putting up your hand for that position?
(And let’s not waste Williams bandwidth on this, a simple yes or no will suffice!)
For anyone who hasn’t today’s Moir cartoon in the SMH:
http://www.smh.com.au/cartoons/index.html
Check it out, brilliantly done.
170 WTR
I agree – that the Libs managed to limit their losses to what we’ve ended up with is just amazing.
Hundreds of thousands of people changed their voting intention in the last 7-10 days in the face of a woeful campaign.
And from opposition they’re many many thousands of paid people down in the next round in 3 years time; who knows – they might have to even develop a few popular inclusive policies. do they even have anyone who can remmeber haow to do that?
Can same sex couples have kids, Kirribilli? A simple yes or no will suffice!
NO
The health system is apauling.
My grandma has very poor circulation and [long story short] has a wound that is not healing on the lower leg and has turned into an ulcler that is necrotic. She is experiencing pain in the big toe of the same leg. Her doctor [on an almost daily house call basis these days] has tried to get her into a circulation specialist to have special xrays and scans to see if the blood is getting to the toe, and where blockages might be, but it will not be done before February next year. Unacceptable, we said. So they tried a bit harder and could get her in to see not a circulation specialist but someone else with not as good diagnostic equipment, but not until early January.
Meawhile, the ulcer is necrotic and she is in such grave danger of loosing her leg that today they are off to the emergency dept of the hospital, armed with an eski full of food, a wheelchair and a letter from her doctor pleading her to be admitted for emergency surgery to have the necrotic flesh removed so that she doesnt have to have her 85 year old leg amputated.
Can’t tell you how pathetic it all is.
174
Centre
They can, with help, and no different to many other couples who require help.
So your real point is that you personally don’t approve of couples (of any flavour) getting help to become parents, or just specifically couples who happen to be of the same gender?
If it’s the latter, you are expressing your prejudices, and you are welcome to them.
I’m off now, but will not comment further on this topic.
173 onimod
Yes they will have to learn a few more tricks to peg back the ALP this time. It would be fun to be a fly on the wall in the next strategy meeting.
Nelson: Ok guys we’re behind in the polls – let’s work through our check list. Firstly, step up the tax payer funded ads.
Strategist (quickly and in a deep voice): Um we not in power any more
Nelson: (giggles) Oh forgot. Ok, let’s put up some ridicules red neck policy that the ALP either has to agree with for or be wedged.
Strategist: Still not in power..
Nelson: mmm, lets get our army of staffers working on…
Strategist: not there anymore, they’re sitting outside train stations with “will wedge for food” placards.
Nelson: The army could ….
Strategist: (shakes head)
Nelson: The AFP could …
Strategist: (mouths the word “no”)
Nelson: The public service…
Strategist: (raises eyebrow)
Nelson: “How the heck are we supposed to win then?”
The poll looks pretty good for what it is.
My concern is the locked in tax cuts that will ensue in the may budget and the flow on inflation effect and consequent action by the RBA.
A bold move would be to scrap the cuts and either look at the excise or the GST.
I know the excise has been looked at but I would love to be a fly on the wall at COAG than fed second hand information.
Do I smell more change in the air???
175 chino- I sympathise re your grandmother. I can assure you that it will made no difference to the chances of survival of the limb when the necrotic tissue is removed. She needs her doppler pressures measured as a minimum (they can do that in Emerg) and then an angiogram. She should mention that she has “rest pain”, which is pain in her foot at night which keeps her awake.
While the theory that anti terrorism laws weren’t made retrospective because the AWB bribes may have financed Palestinian terrorist groups potentially opening Dolly et al to prosecution sounds plausible, I suggest this is drawing a mighty long bow.
You’d have to prove that a) the money was paid to such groups, and b) that the former government ministers knew this was the destination. Almost impossible to prove, especially given that Saddam Hussein, the alleged middle man, is dead.
But, as I understand it, the monies paid by Saddam went to the relatives of Palestinian suicide bombers as compensation for their properties being destroyed in retaliation by the IDF, not to finance the groups. Such compensation almost certainly isn’t a crime, however, collective punishment is. Australia has on a number of occasions, including, from memory, within the last 5-6 years, sent back former officials and soldiers of the Nazi era to be tried for collective punishment related war crimes.
Anyway, there seem to be a number of local and and international crimes of equal or greater seriousness that may have been committed by those involved in the AWB scandal.
Surely, what is described on Landeryou’s site, if true, is a case of sexual assault in the workplace. http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/2007/12/pervo-my-name-is-earl.html
As a long-time scrutineer, it was always my understanding that scrutineers obeyed the rules or were barred.
The poll official is a worker in her work place. The AEC owes her, and other workers a duty of care to provide a safe workplace. The circumstances described are beyond belief. Surely, without wishing to pre-judge, in this situation the scrutineer would be asked to leave.
Scrutineers inevitably ‘hover’ over staff to observe individual balot papers, however any intentional touching would at the least constitute assault / intimidation and is ‘not on’. That is without consideration of the specifics alleged.
Surely the Returning Officer has the power to ‘ban’ the scrutineer concerned?
Even serfchoices didn’t (in theory) eliminate the right to not be exposed to sexual harassment.
Speaking of being polled, I was at the Crosby, Stills and Nash concert last night in Sydney (brilliant) when Crosby added after some banter “we know we’ve got a monkey in the White House”. After a pause he said “but you got rid of yours”.
The roar from the crowd sounded to us like 100% agreed, even if there the polls indicate that there shoud have been 43% LNP voters there.
(Clumsy way I know to try to keep it on topic!)
If they thought they were going to lose, the Libs may have forced the ALP to committ to the tax cuts to fuel inflation and enhance there ability to regain office in the future
180 MayoFeral- I had to laugh this week when I read Dolly’s article in the Tiser saying Steve Smith would be spending a lot of time on planes reading briefings. He forgot to mention that most of the briefings he just ignored, like the thirty briefings on the AWB.
“If they thought they were going to lose, the Libs may have forced the ALP to committ to the tax cuts to fuel inflation and enhance there ability to regain office in the future”
Not sure the Libs were thinking that far ahead.
I don’t think the tax cuts are that much of a handicap.
I think the ALP can be thankful that they have inherited a tax system with income tax rates that are competitive compared to other first world economies. If the top marginal rate was still cutting in at just above average earnings the brain drain would be a flood.
The changes to both income and consumption taxes is something the ALP would have struggled to implement. In the end, the Coalition has made those changes for them and they are now off the agenda. The ALP can get on with reforms that are popular and very much in their domain.
This was a verrrrrry good election for the ALP to win.
185 – Diogenese – Proving that he did know how to do his job! Just too lazy to actually do it. As the poor buggers in ET found out at great cost.
From reports on this site, it would seem that the ALP can’t expect to pick up McEwen.
Kirribilli @ 1.21pm.
No, same sex couples can’t have kids. Why should we change the course of nature to such an extent? Are you serious? Do you really want to be heading in that path?
All because people who can’t have what they can’t have are acting in and considering their own selfish interests?
I always had a nasty feeling Fran Bailey would win it on the recount!
Oh well, 83 seats isn’t too bad at all, and Ms Bailey will be an ineffective MP for the next 3 years.
glen wrote: “Basil Fawlty – have you read the specs of the F18Fs they have better radar than SU27s can easily take them plus they have better stealth capabilities, and plus these are Indonesians we’re talking about i bet our fighter pilots are far better than theirs.
Basil 8 just 8 SU30s i mean for petes sake here 8 SU30s against our entire airforce yeah we’re in real danger mate!”
those 8 SU30s easily have the range to mine or employ anti shipping missiles against perth for instance. a strike like that would be pretty bad, especially, seeing as how horatio has gotten rid of the f-111, we have no way to hit them back.
lets say, for the sake of argument, you’re pm horatio hornet and i’m indonesian president repetitive syllable. something goes wrong, perhaps your government carries out one of those unannounced strikes against terrorists on indonesian soil (as downer said the govt. would be prepared to do) it misses and hits a school. i send 4 su-30s out over the indian ocean, doglegging back towards perth and launch several cruise missiles/anti ship missiles at targets in the harbour.
in response to such a devastating strike, pm super hornet orders a retaliatory strike using our new super hornets. here’s the problem. there isn’t anywhere they can operate from that isn’t in range of long range su-30 combat air patrols (cap). there certainly isn’t anywhere they can refuel out of range of su-30 cap. and, best of all i still have a heap of f-16A/B/Cs to use for close to home defence. this means i could aggressively deploy all the su-30s left to harass you at long range (the su-30’s radar and r-77/aa-12 missiles make it a fearsome long range combatant) and mop up any survivors with f-16s closer to home. the endurance of the su-30s also means i’d whack you again on the way home. you’d be lucky not to have 90% losses. the paltry range of the super hornet means that any attack must occur from very limited directions (unlike the f-111 which could be employed in attacks from almost all directions).
sure, it’s an outlandish hypothetical but so was the ijn sinking british warships not an awfully long time ago. in fact, glen, japanese pilots were viewed as being too small and lacking peripheral vision to make good fighter pilots. the top four or so aces in the pacific were all japanese.
face facts glen, thanks to nelson, once indonesia gets their su-30s they will have an overwhelming strike advantage while we’ll have to post them firecrackers. there was a previous comment about someone having worked with managers like nelson. it was spot on. i’ve met his type before too. vain middle management types absolutely convinced of their unique genius. in every ministry he’s held he gained a reputation for rejecting departmental advice and substituting his own. hopefully he’ll lead the libs the same way.
I’m glad at least one media outlet is doing what they all should have been doing and that is evaluating and investigating at least one of the Coalitions publically funded advertising (re-election) campaigns.
The $43 million “NetAlert campaign”, which would have had al least $10 to $15 million more added in survey and production costs, was a total con and waste of presious public resources.
{ INDUSTRY professionals have raised doubts about the accuracy of statistics used in the Howard government’s multimillion-dollar internet safety campaign.}
{The then communications minister, Helen Coonan, said the statistics were drawn from a study commissioned by the government. But she refused to make the research public, saying it contained personal information. The Age has obtained the research, a survey prepared by the Wallis Consulting Group, under freedom of information laws. It does not contain any personal information.}
{The claim in the campaign regarding stranger contact does not appear in the government-commissioned research. The question was not posed in this form. Participants were asked: “When chatting online, have you ever been contacted by someone you haven’t met in real life?” More than half answered “yes”.
But when asked who they chatted to or messaged, they said communication was mostly with friends (96%), friends of friends (31%) or people met online who their parents had said “it is all right to talk to” (20%). Only 14% chatted or messaged with “just a mixture of people including strangers”.}
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/coalition-internet-campaign-inaccurate/2007/12/14/1197568265011.html
Now, if only the lazy media can have a good look at all the other wasteful Lib media propaganda campaigns, then they may be disuaded from trying some thing similar in the future. that goes for Labor too.
Gam how far is it from (Tindal) Darwin to Indonesia or Broome to Indonesia not far at all our F18s and F18Fs would easily be able to strike back at target should they try anything.
Those 4 SU30s would be shot down we have good land base radar systems in place, plus we’d send up our FA18s from Tindal to smack them on their way home.
I did not mean my comments to appear racist to you my argument was that our fighter pilots are some of the best trained in the world and id pit any of our best against Indonesias best.
Oh no im shaking in my boots with the ‘threat’ of 8 SU30s which do not have any stealth capacity we’d spot them a mile away with our landbased radar gam!!!
The super hornets have APG-79 radar. This radar gives them the ability to execute simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks. The APG-79 also provides higher quality high-resolution ground mapping at long standoff ranges. The AESA radar also offers the ability to detect smaller targets, such as inbound missiles, far better technology than what the Indonesians F-16s or Su27s or even Su30s.
Indonesia as of now operates 2 Su-27SK & 2 Su-30MK aircraft and signed a deal of 6 Su-30 aircraft out of their full capacity of roughly 70 combat aircraft in their Air Force. Oh and lets fear the might of the Indonesian Air Force gam yet when they bought the two Su-27 Flankers and two Su-30 Flankers, there was no money for any weapons for these aircraft LOL!!!!
I doubt Fitzgibbon will change the order of 24 Super Hornets, its the perfect wedge for Nelson because he can say if they block it that the ALP is not interested in the Defence of Australia and if they buy something more expensive he can say that they are wasting money sweet!
Don’t know if this has been posted here, but another National Treasure, Clem Jones died today.
Brisbane’s longest serving Lord Mayor, Clem Jones, has died today, aged 89.
The influential former civic leader, credited with modernising the River City, had been gravely ill for some time.
Dr Jones was elected as Labor Lord Mayor in 1961 and served a record 15 years in office.
A surveyor by profession, he developed Brisbane’s first town plan and implemented many dramatic changes including improvements to roads, drainage and the creation of parklands and public swimming pools.
He was also a keen sports fan, and served as curator of the Brisbane Cricket Ground.
Following his retirement as Lord Mayor, Dr Jones was appointed Administrator of the Darwin Reconstruction Commission, where he helped rebuild the devastated city in the wake of Cyclone Tracey.
He was awarded an Order of Australia medal in 1976, Queenslander of the Year in 1990 and was also a finalist in the Senior Australian of the Year awards in 2004.
He died at the Wesley Hospital around 4.30am from pneumonia.
Premier Anna Bligh said a state funeral was planned for Dr Jones later this week.
“In honour of his wishes (it ) will be held at City Hall,” Ms Bligh said.
“Clem will long be remembered for his vision and commitment to transforming Brisbane from a conservative country town to a vibrant cosmopolitan city.
“His life-long civic contribution and love of the city of Brisbane was unsurpassed.”
Dr Jones’ wife Sylvia died in 1999.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/former-mayor-clem-jones-dies/2007/12/15/1197568304193.html
187 Progressive – who said Fran has won anything? The recheck is a long way from finished and no on going results have been published.
Gary id say it is 50/50 either way for McEwen but from what ive heard the Libs have sent every single experienced scrutineer up there to help out. I’d say Fran has a good chance as the margin is only 6 votes and to have effective scrutineers for the first count on election night would have been hard. When we were checking Senate ballots in the seat of Melbourne several days after the election we found that so many were discarded as invalid, Liberal and Labor just because they’d been Below the Line so obviously the Greens had protested them for some reason and tossed them out.
So id give Fran a good chance to win atm but who knows.
188 – Gam, Perth is too far unless they do something about their air refuel capability, and anyway the potential targets are probably not worth the kero, unless they luck catching some of the subs in harbour.
But the Pilbara and Darwin have lots of potential. Sink a few ore carriers/cargo ships and see our economy wobble.
Most people believe the RAAF’s and RAN’s primary function is to stop an invasion of Oz. Not so. Only one country can successfully do that, and if Uncle Sam wants us there’s little we could do about it.
Their real purpose is mainly economic. Much of our wealth comes from areas within range of potential enemies, and a high proportion of our exports (and imports) transit the territorial waters of these potential enemies.
As per above, sink a few ore carriers and its bad news for the economy, but even worse, prevent direct transit of ships bound for/from Japan, China, the Mid East and Europe and its a disaster.
The RAAF patrol nearly 30% of the earth’s surface. You can’t protect that with fighters that have a combat radius of 150mn/about 280km (ever spot the contrail of an airliner from low down on the horizon? Thats roughly at the same distance – depending on atmospheric conditions and your eyesight!).
I note that at no time did horatio mention anything about increasing the air tanker fleet to compensate for the Hornets’ much shorter range. For that matter nothing was said about this in relation to the F-35s, either. The tankers on order are barely adequate for the F-111s. No doubt this was going to be the Boeing reps next task.
MayoFeral but think of the damage we could do to Indonesia by sinking oil transporters off the coast of Java or Ache with our Collins Class Submarines??? I’d say Indonesias economy would flat line if that happened.
Hey 195
You talk too much.
Are you aware of the near conflict when the uprising was happening around the turn of the century???
Do you know what was the objective???
Obviously you hark from the sideline.
Good day sir.
scaper…
glen wrote: “Gam how far is it from (Tindal) Darwin to Indonesia or Broome to Indonesia not far at all our F18s and F18Fs would easily be able to strike back at target should they try anything.”
no, they wouldn’t, not without having to refuel. meanwhile those bases are easily in range of su-30s.
“Those 4 SU30s would be shot down we have good land base radar systems in place, plus we’d send up our FA18s from Tindal to smack them on their way home.”
they’d never get within radar range if they launched cruise missiles (which they’re buying) from out in the indian ocean.
“I did not mean my comments to appear racist to you my argument was that our fighter pilots are some of the best trained in the world and id pit any of our best against Indonesias best.”
you weren’t being racist, you were being arrogantly overconfident, that was my point. ‘they’re probably worse than us’ doesn’t quite cut it.
“The super hornets have APG-79 radar. This radar gives them the ability to execute simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks. The APG-79 also provides higher quality high-resolution ground mapping at long standoff ranges. The AESA radar also offers the ability to detect smaller targets, such as inbound missiles, far better technology than what the Indonesians F-16s or Su27s or even Su30s.”
you have no idea about the su-27/30s capabilities. for instance, the r-77 missile out ranges the aim-120 giving them the chance to shoot first and turn tail. they can also loiter for longer and can fight for longer before having to return to base.
“I doubt Fitzgibbon will change the order of 24 Super Hornets, its the perfect wedge for Nelson because he can say if they block it that the ALP is not interested in the Defence of Australia and if they buy something more expensive he can say that they are wasting money sweet!”
not if they hold an inquiry into the sale and trot out senior defence official after defence official to state for the record how badly nelson buggered it up…
Gam the only person to speak out against the F-18F was a former Air Commodore not anybody within the Air Force at the moment.
Gam the only weapons the Indons have on their Su27s and Su30s are air to air they have no capacity to launch air strikes. If they couldnt afford any weaponry on their first 4 high tech Russian aircraft how will they manage with a further 6 Su30s arm half of them LOL!
Gam i dont underestimate them i only posit that our pilots are better trained than theirs.
Centre @ 186:
“No, same sex couples can’t have kids. Why should we change the course of nature to such an extent? Are you serious? Do you really want to be heading in that path?
All because people who can’t have what they can’t have are acting in and considering their own selfish interests?”
So, you’re argument against allowing same-sex couples to have kids is that it would “change the course of nature”. But aren’t we constantly changing the course of nature – e.g. finding cures for diseases, acting on climate change – for the betterment of people and society?
And isn’t any couple (or person) “acting in and considering their own selfish interests” when deciding to have a child? How is this different with same-sex couples?
193 Glen – I agree with you Glen. Too close to call.
Glen,
It is very clear you haven’t seen the 4 Corners program on the Super Hornets.
Please take the time to have a good look at it and maybe read the transcript also.
There is no way, after taking on board what was bpresented in this program, that you would have the affrontery to present what you have been doing to us on this thread.
Please check it out and then get back to us.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2007/s2070484.htm
Cheers, Scorpio.
199
Sean
As Winston Chuchill put it, so succintly, “a fanatic is someone who won’t change their mind and won’t change the subject”.
I guess that just about sums up the opinions of Centre on this topic, and so it goes without saying that no amount of logic, or appeal to rational evaluation will change them one iota.
It is the essential nature of prejudice, it remains defiantly immune to anything but its own reflection.
Sean for the simple reason that two people of the same sex cannot have children it is impossible. IVF was not created so that single women and lesbians could have children it was as a last resort to help a heterosexual couple who physiologically could have children but are finding it difficult for one reason or another.
Just as Gays and Lesbians cannot naturally have children neither should they be allowed surrogacy or adoption (or any parenting rights either), i know they didnt choose to be homosexual but you just cannot have children like that its not natural. Just as people dont support human cloning which is not natural most people do not support homosexuals having children as this is not natural either.
I agree with Centre on this one Sean.
Sounds like a Warcraft game chatroom….
Healh & Roxon: There are other ‘hidden’ players in the public hospital waiting list debates, including diverse doctors (as one GP I know said, like ‘herding cats’, highly independent and some operate far more like ruthless cut-throat capitalists than humanitarians, and critical shortages especially in surgical specialties). No govt can solve them, money wont solve it. Made more complex in Oz by the uncapped funding of the private system.
Same-sex couples & kids: As long as they pay for it, and its a private matter, why should Medicare pay for obscenely expensive medical technology that is not for treatment of a real health issue? Same goes for much of cosmetic surgery.
Materialism gone mad, don’t care if its a boob-job, penile enlargement, sex-changes, or some complicated womb-surrogacy, IVF etc – it is not a health problem, disease or condition needing treatment, then it shouldn’t be covered under public-funded health insurance, and hence not an issue for govt. Might even release up some badly needed surgeons for *real* public health problems, like some of those on public waiting lists.
McEwen… *sniff*, *sob* – my last bet from the election still pending… no need to open up the book on the recount, I can’t be the only election bettee still waiting!
I finally gave up, I lost it…. my only loss . (nail-biter with Solomon tho’) .. beaten at the last by Fran’s whingeing!
201
Scorpio – i watched it BTW and it was just the ABC blowing its trumpet another attack on the Howard Government and simply a few ex-Air Force officers pissed off about not getting the F-22.
Glen @203, I differ _ I dont think heterosexual couples should access IVF and related tech from the public Medicare purse either. I support the original NHMRC finding that infertility, whilst tragic for those involved, is not a public health issue requiring treatment for reduction in morbidity/mortality or physical health and quality of life.
But whingeing rich folks lobbied and lobbied and lobbied, until they eventually got their cut from the Medicare pie.
Don’t have a problem with adoption either, for either group, but surrogacy is a form of prostitution. Its on the level of buying kidneys from poor people.
But still, these issues like abortion are always fraught with emotion, morals and personal value systems, and I dont know why they keep coming up as “political” issues. The only “political” issue relating to it, is if they insist on using public funds to support their lifestyles.
Rain @ 204- As a plastic surgeon, I think I need to enlighten you on what we do in the public hospital system. None of the procedures you listed are performed in public hospitals and Medicare does not cover them. No cosmetic surgery is performed in SA in public hospitals. As for the doctors who are more like “ruthless cut-throat capitalists than humanitarians”, they certainly exist but they do not work in public hospitals. I earn four times as when I work in private than in the public hospitals, as would many other specialists but choose to spend half my time in public hospitals for many obviously non-monetary reasons.
Glen,
Watch it again. Why should the technical aero warfare expertise of those gentlemen be inferior to that of those you prefer to use in your support of the SH’s.
I would like to see a proper investigation of the whole Nelson procurement process and a proper evaluation of the air warfare capability of those aircraft.
When even US experts agree with the evaluation of the experts in the 4 Corners program, then questions remain to be answered as to the appropriateness of this procurement.
But of course those people of whine about us not having the F-22 thats what they want cos its the best but Australia couldnt get it so we got something good that our pilots can easily adapt too.
Also ill bet that there were experts who were not interviewed as they’d have supported the F-18Fs, don’t you understand how documentary’s are made??? Who gets to choose who can speak on the subject who chooses the interviewees the Director/Producers do.
nuff said.
193-Glen. From the NW end of Tindal’s main runway its 140nm to the nearest point on our coast. West Timor is the nearest part of Indonesia, and that is nearly 600nm from Tindal (there are a few small, barely inhabited islands to the NE of Timor that are about 100 nm closer). Not that there’s much worth attacking. So under combat conditions plan on 4 refuels each way for your and Horatio’s beloved Hornets. A F-35 could just manage to shoot up a hut on the beach before having to turn back. OTOH, a F-111 could do that anywhere on WT, twice, without refuelling. Fitted with F-35/F-22s engines it may be able to do it 4 times while flying continuously at significantly higher speeds than the Su-30s.
Ground radars have a range not much greater than the F/A18s and you might note that they are few and far between up north – Darwin, Tindal and then a gap of nearly 700nm to the (civilian) radar at Broome (forget Wyndham). Yes, AWACs could close the gap if we had them, as can, to a lesser extent, both P-3s and the Jindalee radar in Alice or possibly one of the navy’s patrol boats if its in the right area at the right time. However, then you need to protect the AWACs/P-3s/patrol boat. So more aircraft, so more tankers, which then need protection so…….. more money.
As for our subs blowing up Indonesia oil tankers, yes, it would be inconvenient, but they are much less reliant on exports/imports than we are. And they would still have their oil, we don’t have enough to keep us going for very long, nor sufficient refining capacity. Most of our petrol comes from Singapore! If it ever comes to a war, buy every horse you can find. They’ll soon be worth their weight in gold.
Glen @ 203 -
“… two people of the same sex cannot have children it is impossible. IVF was not created so that single women and lesbians could have children it was as a last resort to help a heterosexual couple who physiologically could have children but are finding it difficult for one reason or another.
Just as Gays and Lesbians cannot naturally have children neither should they be allowed surrogacy or adoption (or any parenting rights either), i know they didnt choose to be homosexual but you just cannot have children like that its not natural. Just as people dont support human cloning which is not natural most people do not support homosexuals having children as this is not natural either.”
Glen,
1. Two people of the same sex can have children through many means, (which you yourself later mention) including adoption, surrogacy and IVF. Just because IVF was “not created so that single women and lesbians (and gays)” could have children, does not mean that it cannot be used for that purpose. Undoubtedly, the inventors of the internet did not foresee it being used for political blogs, but you use it for this purpose frequently.
2. You say, “you just cannot have children like that its not natural. Just as people dont support human cloning which is not natural”. Well, it’s not natural for people to dye their hair, but I don’t see you complaining about that. If you are arguing that gays and lesbians should not be able to parent children, you’ll have to come up with a better reason than that.
Diogenes @ 207, you are quite correct, I’m sorry if you misunderstood, I meant diverse in a very wide-range across the whole spectrum. Not exactly a homogeneous group or predictable – our doctors
For example, I worked on some coordinated care trials once, and one of the GPs, who volunteered to act as Project Medical Coordinator was constantly frustrated by having something like 12 GPs and 6 Specialists having 18 different divergent views and individual work-practice preferences, and as he said: “Trying to gain a consensus or a team-approach from doctors is like ‘herding cats’ ”
Similarly with feedback from state/territory health departments, hospital admins, Medicare Australia etc – its just one of the constraints that Health Ministers and bureacrats have to live with.
Its quite a *challenge*
negotiating something with the AMA as national ‘peak body’ only to find out 6 months later, that half their members didn’t agree with it anyway.
Glen,
I think you put forward argument for argument’s sake and not for any reason of informing, evaluating or trying to even see any possibilities that may conflict even marginally on your very narrow view of how the world operates or should operate.
Other people have rights and opinions and they have to be respected, especially as they, in many cases, have an intellectually informed basis for those opinions.
Just trying to support biggoted right wing religious views which aren’t supported by the majority of the population or trying to support knee jerk decisions by your Lib friends when they spend $6 billion of the taxpayers money on useless aircraft, may be considered admirable qualities within the Coalition camp, but are more than boring to the greater majority of the rest of us.
212 Rain- Thanks for that clarification. Actually, trying to get doctors to work together is more like herding tigers than cats. There is an enormous amount of jealousy and often hatred between different specialties, and even within specialties. I would be surprised if even 50% of AMA members agree with anything they said. Most of us don’t even belong to the AMA. I certainly sympathise with anyone trying to negotiate with doctors.
Glen @ 209
glen, you just might want to consider the true state of the alliance under Bush/Howard if the “best friend America has” is not only considered unworthy of getting their best, but can’t even buy the best of their second string, for the F-35s we’re allowed to have is the export version with minimal stealth which nearly any country with the cash can buy and not the USAF variant. I wonder how long it’ll be before the sales reps are making Gaddafi and Kim Jong Il very attractive offers.
And why is this so? Well, IME, grovelling doesn’t earn respect, only contempt.
Sorry for the “glen” typo Glen
213
Scorpio – Don’t jump to conclusions, i am not a religious man. I just dont think homosexuals should have children thats my opinion.
Sure if you want a gap in our defences sure why not spend the 6b on homeless shelters, but i for one think military spending is necessary and these planes are not useless for gods sake if they were why do the US have them as a principle fighter for the USN.
MayoFeral groveling as you put it or being a tough ally wont get us the F-22s they want it and its technology for themselves.
OH&S update.
John Howard’s “legacy” was safely wrapped in black plastic, encased in strong concrete and dumped off the heads. A monitoring program will be instigated to ensure no toxic leaching to the environment and settled areas. Thanks to the crew. Well done!
Alert! John Howard’s dog whistle has not been found.
If found, it is vital that this object be treated with extreme caution. Approved methodology if found: Plug thin end with cork from your favourite tipple, apply super glue or Araldite. Hire jack-hammer, concrete mixer and several unemployed liberals. Build a pyre. Wear protective clothing, including bio-masks. Crush the object. Burn it. Gather the ash and cast into the sea. Ensure remains sink. Break for lunch.
Thank you.
There will be a redistribution of Federal electorates in Western Australia.
see here
http://www.ag.gov.au/portal/govgazonline.nsf/F4C71BBBAE29F921CA2573B1000578A1/$file/S261.pdf
Derek Corbett, You’re a very funny bloke. Rain and Diogenes, cats, tiggers and really weird stuff is the stuff of life in what is loosely described as the health industry. Glen, you’ve accepted it intellectually, but not emotionally. Go take some time out, maybe get a little down in the mouth, go for a walk on a deserted beach, have a bit of a think, but specifically, try thinking differently. It’ll do you any amount of good.
I am not prejudice. I am certainly not a biggot. And I am definitely not religious. And it is wrong to be labelled as such because of my views.I support all advances in medical science, and technology including stem cell research.
I have absolutely nothing against gay people. I like gay people. Their sexual nature is their business. There are straight people, gay people and all types of fetish people. As long as nobody is being hurt it should be perfectly fine and acceptable.
Two people of the same sex cannot have children according to the laws of nature Do you Sean, Scorpio and Kirribilli think that it is natural for a child to grow up with a same sex couple and calling them mummy and daddy?
I would like to win the 100m and Marathon at the Olympics, but it can’t be done. I will comment no further on this topic.
Speaking of Health, here is WA’s response.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22930363-2761,00.html
Note the comments from the Doctor’s union
”If the top marginal rate was still cutting in at just above average earnings the brain drain would be a flood.” [183]
If a top marginal rate was higher today, the Government would have had more money to spend on healthcare, on roads, on desalination plants.
“Two people of the same sex cannot have children according to the laws of nature”
The laws of nature say that it is normal for a bunch of sisters to have sex with their brother and then dine on the flesh of their dead mother until they bear their chidren, as this is precisely how some animals propagate themselves. Anyone who bases their morality on an appeal to ‘nature’ is, frankly, an idiot.
“Do you Sean, Scorpio and Kirribilli think that it is natural for a child to grow up with a same sex couple and calling them mummy and daddy?”
No, obviously they would call them “mummy and mummy” or “daddy and daddy”.
Homosexual couples can have children today with insemination, surrogacy and IVF. They can’t do it with certainty and with the rights of their children and partners protected. Legal discrimination against homosexual parenting has no effect on stopping sub-optimal parenting (almost all of which is in the hands of heterosexual parents) and is mainly effective in punishing homosexuals for their sexual preference.
I must add, to my last comment, if you are going to have same sex parents, why just have the two, why not three, what the heck, why not six or ten?
Well put, Martin.
Dr Watson 221
Can they make the redistribution in Western Australia retrospective please
Thanks Martin B, I have just won the argument. You have resorted to name calling. Shades of the conservatives!
Centre 227, Sounds good! Least the kids are not going to be starved for attention! With the cost of rearing kids these days this might be a much better option!
Centre, if you care to look at the responses you’ve had on this blog, it’s pretty clear that you’ve not had any support for your original premise. In fact all the comments have basically been along the same lines, in other words “so what?”.
So, being a rational creature, you just might assume that your opinion is not widely accepted, and others actually don’t see any problems with ANY couple (of any combination) being parents in whatever manner they so choose.
In fact, the essential ingredient is the commitment to be a parent, not one’s gender or preferences. Anyone wishing to undertake this great endevour, and even against the prejudices of some people, deserve our best wishes and anything we can do to make their life easier, not harder.
Afterall, Centre, love is a many gendered thing!
“I must add, to my last comment, if you are going to have same sex parents, why just have the two, why not three, what the heck, why not six or ten?”
Why not indeed, if such arrangements can provide stable emotional and economic foundations for children? However to date the overwhelming majority of homosexual couples have found that this is not desirable or acheivable, and in fact the most noticeable examples of group marriage have been within heterosexual frameworks.
“You have resorted to name calling.”
No, I have accurately described the lifecycle of pyemotidae mites and drawn an obvious conclusion from that. If you would like to contest my facts, or xplain how the Pyemotidae lie outside the laws of nature, or furhter explicate the laws of nature then be m guest.
I could claim that I have won the argument by making you reply after you said you wouldn’t, but that would clearly be beneath me.
Enough already.
Kirriblilli, it is not so much a premise but my own particular view. But you are fair dinkum kidding if you think I’m in the minority on this in our society. Just to repeat, I am not prejudiced or religious.
Ahem.
Excellent article in the Oz today by Paul Kelly, re.Libs leadership issues back in September.Sorry, no link, it[s hidden away in the columnists page of Opinion.
Heck yeah. There’s much more
trivialimportant matters to discuss.The booth of Weipa had a 15.73% 2PP swing between 2004 and 2007 (those miners must love workchoices).
There must be higher swings? Anyone?
Martin B… The Flagstone booth in the division of Forde had a 19.9% 2PP swing. There were many booths in Forde with large swings, hence the 14.43% swing overall in the division.
Thanks – was Flagstone definitely the highest in Forde?
So I’m probably on permanent moderation – I don’t really care. Because you lot waste way too much time on fighter jets and same-sex couples. And my time is just way too valuable.
Anyway, today I listened to Mark Arbib talk on the Election campaign – he said some interesting things, although on WA he would not comment, apparently still in analysis.
One question was on the idea (a Tory misconception) that the voters would fear Labor Governments at Federal and State – he said this was never factored into Labor’s planning, and frankly they were astonished to see that bunting rolled out on Election day, because in all their research it had never come out as an issue. I find that interesting becase a buch of silly Tories campaiging at the NSW State election assured me that in that event the end of the world would be nigh!
Oh – dont worry about the air defence. I hear that brooms sticks will supplied to Bronwyn Bishop and Helen Coonan.
Yes Glen.
Liberals and Nationals should merge. Surely it would be more beneficial to their bottom line (dollar). What should the party be called? I reckon Australian or National Conservative Party.
Basil it is a big issue if one of the two major parties merge at the federal level.
Probably the way to go Centre, i mean it would save a lot of money. Plus if the Libs are struggling for cash how bad are the Nats doin’ that’s the big question???
My picks for new names…personally i dont think the Nats will agree to merge unless we change names, ideally we’d like to keep the Liberal Party name but we may have to change.
United Australia Party (yes i know they were a defunct political party of the 30s/40s but it is a sweet name nevertheless)
Conservative Party
All for Australia Party
National Coalition Party
Nationalist Party of Australia (defunct but an outside chance)
Conservative Alliance
Silly Party
Very Silly Party
Rich Mates Party
All for Greedy Business Party
United Underpants Party
Divide and Rule Party
Basil we grown ups are having a serious discussion here…
238- Martin – yeah, but would the miners have been so keen once the boom hit a brick wall, as they always do, and they realised they signed away all their rights?
The Cartel Party
Instead of ALP – Union Party or Rudd Party
“i know they didnt choose to be homosexual but you just cannot have children like that its not natural.”
I totally agree. It is not natural to have IVF of any sort, so it should be banned for all. People who have genetic deficiencies or are infertile simply should not breed. Go ahead and adopt, but keep you deficient genes were they belong, away from other people. Else the children you so desperately want will very likely inherit the same problems that you are experiencing and why would you wish that upon your own kids? I am incredulous that anyone in 2007 is brave or naive enough to say that some people are not allowed to be parents because they are homosexual. FFS it is legal for absolutely ANYONE to be a parent, so it is pure bigotry to say that homosexuals are suitably qualified to be parents if they conceive naturally, but are not capable of the same task if they adopt or use IVF or surrogacy.
If it is OK for heteros to use IVF, then it must also be OK for homosexuals. In fact, they are far more likely to produce healthy kids than would a bloke who shoots blanks. I also find it bewildering that certain people who claim to be christians rave on about how immoral it is to use a condom because it is unnatural, yet they condone IVF.
Which booth had the most one-sided 2PP result?
Have to be a rural booth you’d think??
It is a different feeling taking the right wing view on a particular issue on this blog. Glen if the money is real good (like a footballer) I’ll consider joining your mob lol!
On the AEC website it shows four seats as yet to be finalised.
Corangamite, McEwen, Melbourne and Melbourne Ports.
Yep, found the answer (excluding Prision/Hospital etc mobile teams):
1.72/98.28 2PP in Eumamurrin, Division of Maranoa
http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HousePollingPlaceFirstPrefs-13745-6154.htm
The largest margin in a booth with 1000+ votes is Cringila in the seat of Throsby (93.15/6.85 2PP)
http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HousePollingPlaceFirstPrefs-13745-540.htm
‘Onya James,
I’m not far from Cringilla, in the domain of the great member for Throsby, Jenny George. It’s the lowest income suburb in the Illawarra, located on the backside of the Port Kembla Steel Works.
Oh my, just check out the lead report in “The Age” today. Is Senator Wong a star? She did this. She hornswoggled and argued and bent their arms (the U.S.)up their backs and got them to agree!! Megastar, Our Penny! Whoop!
Maybe Glen should talk to the pilots on this subject,they’ll clear his woolly brained head in no time.I’ll bring my brother on to this forum tomorrow,he’s a military expert and he knows the pilots.Their perspective is very interesting to listen to.
BTW, Jenny George got a 9.64 % swing to hike her 2PP up to 73.46. I just hope the Nelsonian Libs persist in their delusion that WorkChoices had no major impact, that it was really just bad luck combined with need to renew leadership, which Costello was peddling again recently.
A few clicks on the AEC site shows:
Leichhardt booths (all ALP 2pp)
Hope Vale 70.83 +20.16
Thursday Island 68.12 +27.93
Remote Mobile Team 3 85.54 +30.99
And what I think must be a record – A 19.88% swing to the CLP at the Lingiari Remote Mobile Team 13 (a whole six votes)
d
Harry,
Muchas Gracias for the headsup about the spectacular triumph for our Minister for Climate Change. She’s brilliant.
Remote mobile team 7 in Lingiari recorded a 2PP vote of 98.48% for labor.
The primaries were ALP 257 votes, Greens 5, CLP 2.
is this the highest overall?
Most of the mobile teams in Lingiari recorded TPP’s of ~80-90% for the ALP.
Hems
There is more to come mate.
Looking forward to COAG.
Do you see a window of opportunity???
254
Centre – It’s nice to know that people who disagree can agree on an issue and back one another up. It is mutually gratifying, but just as Adam got attacked for his views on Iraq/Afghanistan you have felt the brunt of some steamy attacks and held your own well. I do my best but i do know i am a minority here but hey lol.
264
scaper… – COAG will be a love in until somebody mentions vertical fiscal imbalance and all hell will break loose, Carpenter still thinks WA will get far more money than the other small States…lol!
Actually all the Opposition Leaders should meet when COAG does i mean they’ve got to work together as a team or else they’ll stay in Opposition. I think this would be a good idea. Especially since all the Labor Leaders are meeting so should the Liberal/Nats Leaders meet IMHO they’ve got a lot of work to do i can tell you now.
Hey, it’s a matter of the result of this love in.
But at the same time…I wish for the rebuilding of the Liberal Party.
I want what is best for our nation…nothing less.
glen wrote: “Just as Gays and Lesbians cannot naturally have children neither should they be allowed surrogacy or adoption (or any parenting rights either), i know they didnt choose to be homosexual but you just cannot have children like that its not natural. Just as people dont support human cloning which is not natural most people do not support homosexuals having children as this is not natural either.”
glen, when did you become opposed to ivf, surrogacy, adoption and parenting rights for post menopausal women and women with fallopian tube disorders? how many votes do you think that will win?
what a crude argument. equal parts mob rule and appeals to the ‘natural order’ by someone who’s typing away on a synthetic computer in his synthetic clothing. bood transfusions, raidotherapy, vaccines, antibiotics, premature babies, open heart surgery, none of these things are ‘natural’ glen. but that won’t stop you making sure you get the best medical care if you have a dodgy heart. who are you to decide what’s natural? why should a mob decide what i do with my body? that’s the problem with ‘conservatives’ like you. you aren’t. the second a conservative opens their mouth to advocate the restriction of someone’s individual rights they instantly join the ranks of the extremist, social engineer left. congratulations.
Glen, you’re such a trooper, but please see my earlier advice. You guys really need to take some time out to have a good, long hard think about the world, and everything. I know it’s tempting to keep flailing away at the traditional enemy or enemies, but what if they aren’t?
Harry ‘Snapper’ Organs 258
Is Senator Wong a star?
Megastar, Our Penny! Whoop!
Yes, Yes, Yes! HSO.
Unimaginable hitherto, but a bit of elbow (along with our gal) and All over, Red Rover!
Not to dwell, but does this not say that a bit of shove and push, previous Oz administration, could have done the same trick?
Considering the rather surprising capitulation of the US at Nusa Dua, well, at least they’ve agreed to actually negotiate short term targets, it really discredits the argument that Rudd and Howard were’nt far apart on this issue.
It seems that Oz ratifying, and holding the Yank’s hand to the fire has been a large influence in this outcome.
Yet another myth blown away, and on the world’s big stage.
Glen – before you try to become an expert on military air power, I suggest you study this website: http://www.ausairpower.net/. The Super Hornet buy is a dud and Nelson was well and truly ripped off by Boeing (who I used to work for so I know the culture there).
The current F/A-18 does not have much more operating range than the old 1960s vintage Mirage fighter. That’s part of the reason we’ve had to buy extra air refuelling aircraft. The so called Super Hornet is just an overweight version of our current fighter and is no match for the Sukhoi Flanker.
The F-111 is expensive to keep operating but we only need a handful of them and it would be a lot less than the $10 billion we have to pay for the Super Hornets. The F-111 is good value because the Indons know that it can fly unrefuelled from Darwin to Djarkarta and back and lob a bomb into a window of the presidential palace. It has kept the Indons honest for the past 30 years.
Believe me, no one in Defence wants the Super Hornet but whether Labor will try to bale out of the deal remains to be seen. My inside knowledge tells me that Defence have to save big bucks to pay for other projects so the Super Hornet deal may be junked by Labor. It may cost us a couple of hundred million bucks to get out of the deal but there is no point in buying equipment we don’t want or need.
It’s all well and good to be high and mighty Alex but there was going to be a gap in our air defences because of the delays of the F-35 JSF, what aircraft would you have bought instead??? Sure the F-111 has served us well but honestly i sincerely doubt we’ll ever have to actually fight a war against them in the few years before we get delivery of our 100 F-35s.
The SuperHornets will be a more reliable aircraft that has been a success for the USN for many years now and will easily slip into our structure considering we already fly F/A18s atm. I believe the F-18E/F is exactly what we needed as a stop gap fighter to plug a temporary hole in our defences. I dont claim to be an air warfare expert i never have, but i believe Nelson got the best that was on offer for us at that time IMHO. Also i dont remember Labor having the guts to put out an alternative policy other than just trash ours.
I would have thought that the basic thing about a war between Indonesia and Australia is that neither side would have any chance at all of winning an all out war but both sides would have considerable capacity to damage the other’s interests during any war-fighting. Therefore, the purpose of equipment would be to maintain some sort of view on each side that the basic war equation would be lose/lose. Not so much MAD as a little bit MAD. I suppose there are more limited war options, but the basic equation remains that such operations seriously risk the all-out model.
Would marginal differences in platforms make much of a difference here? I would have though that the electronics/missiles would probably be more important than the flying bit. Are the differences marginal? I am not very technical so would be interested in views. I am not really commenting on the value-for-money aspect here. From that perspective the SH looks like a poor purchase and will be a very useful weapon only in the context of the opposition trying to crank up national security as a winning agenda: a flying political boomerang. It will also make Turnbull even more attractive as a replacement for Nelson.
Anyway, remember that scheme of Howard’s, to introduce a starter price for grandparents et al, to line their pockets on a no doubt ever escalating scale, tax free investment for they, their grandkiddies, and god knows who else, to save up for a house? Fine details elude me.
What if Kev introduced some kind of one off over three years, once in a lifetime offer, to match, in whatever dollars, savings made from income tax cuts, as long as the savings remained in an account, of some kind, preferably not with a bank, as they would be eaten immediately.
Idea being to avoid the money pumping into the consumer economy.
Just over the planes and stuff.
He would do anything to win the election. The Liberal Party should effing pay for it.
“THE father of a Sydney boy with cerebral palsy claims his son was used for an election stunt by former prime minister John Howard…. Mr Howard paid a visit to the Terrey Hills home of 11-year-old Daniel Clarke on November 5, in the midst of the election campaign, to announce funds to save endangered orang-utans in Borneo and Sumatra… Daniel lobbied Mr Howard about the plight of the apes after a chance meeting in the Australian rugby team’s dressing room in May…. Daniel’s father, Rodney Clarke, 40, said he has now been informed the $200,000 is no longer going ahead because it was an election promise”.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22929893-5006009,00.html
But, the Finnigans, it wasn’t Kev’s idea, was it?
Crikey, our Kev would not stoop that low. Only a rodent would stoop that low.
Finnigans, this is not Howard’s fault it’s Rudd’s for not taking up that policy.
glen, do you even know when the f-35 will be available? do you it’s been delayed several times? do you know it’s less capable than the f-111? smaller payload, shorter range, must carry large stores externally, making it unstealthy. the f-18 and f-35 are not strike aircraft. they are jacks of all trades and masters of none. you’re reduced to laughing at aircraft because of their country of origin, not knowing their actual capabilities. Which seems to be brendan nelson’s MO. the su-30 outclasses the f-18. it has earned respect from even us pilots. simple as that. the f-18 is pathetically insufficient for the distances we’d have to use them at and i’m sure there’s an interesting advice/memo/meeting trail outlining nelson’s decision to buy them. i’m betting it’ll all come out.
Gam does the F-111 have stealth capabilities????? No it doesnt!
It doesnt have to take large stores only if you want it to be armed with alls its hard points.
So what gam the Indons only will have 8 Su30s we’ll have 24 super hornets and 100 F-35s plus do you even know that when the Indons bought the two su27s and Su30s they didnt have enough money to arm all of them????
#275 That article is bizzare. Parties can now break election promises even though they lost the election? Of course the promise was broken, they are not in government to implement it! Unless we now expect the opposition of the day to storm government offices and force through their own election commitments?
Which low, the Finnigans?
Opting out of orang-utans, do you mean?
Mind you, me too ism is a form of aping.
Reckon Kev should split the diff. Half to cerebral palsy, half to the other guys.
Smile.
(Don’t know how to do those round things)
My advice to the little boy is lobby your local MP if he or she does nothing then sit back until you turn 18 and make a point of telling that Political Party why you wont vote for it, our Pollies seem to not get it that sometimes the seeds of who you vote for are planted by small things to use a footy term the 1% per centers, in saying that Howard made a promise, he nor the Liberal Party can be accused of breaking it for they are no longer the Government.
Did not Howard pay up front for some of his pre demise promises?
Knowing he could no longer rely on non-core?
So, why didn’t he dish the dollars then?
I seem to recall that there was considerable fanfare about it, particularly here.
Agree with 283, the money is good, not just for one little vote, either.
It’s about many and much.
Let me take it one step forward, I suspect why some small L Liberals and some outer suburban voters stayed with the Liberals is they don’t like the Unions.
The Unions serve an important function in the running of the workplace therefore the broader Economy and Community.
Unfortunately just like any group of people there are good and bad but due to the public position of Unions a few bad apples can cause damage just like an MP who is too lazy to work the electorate can cost votes.
One of the little things which hurt the ALP in the 1990s was some Union reps became very lasy this in turn cost both the Union movement members and the ALP votes for many people saw the Unions and the then ALP Government has putting the top end of town ahead of there own hip pocket.
This hurt the ALP and after such an outstanding campaign I do hope the Union movement doesn’t fall back into being lasy for what tends to happen in voter land is if you have a bad experience with something which is clearly connected to one side of Politics then Rudd will be found guilty by association.
There is a saying the day a Government is elected it starts to die.
Okaay! Glen, this is a once in a lifetime, never to be repeated, amazing, offer!
Before I return to yard duty, that is weeding etc mine, would you like, as the resident lurker, to respond to my 274?
glen, the f-35 can carry a couple of bombs internally, at the expense of missiles or missiles at the expense of bombs. it’s pretty much 2 amraams and 2 bombs. it CANNOT carry ANY cruise missiles internally. compare that to the f-111 that can haul 14 TONS of ordnance out to 2000 km. and yes glen, at low level the f-111 is very stealthy, especially seeing as how the people we’d be using it against don’t have integrated air defence systems, e.g. awacs and the like. i suppose you’re right, carrying two bombs each you would need about 20 f-35s to make up a decent strike package and another 20 to escort them to 1000km. also did you know that our export version f-35 is significantly less stealthy than the version the yanks will be using? i think it’s wonderful that you’ve drunk the kool aid on the super hornet, i suppose you have to. but can’t you see sense? i don’t have to make things up or make vague statements to prove my point.
True. But OTOH, Howard met the boy back in May then did nothing until well into the election campaign before dragging the kid before the cameras to show how much he cared knowing full well the odds of being reelected weren’t good.
He clearly used the kid as a last desperate ploy to win a few votes.
I understand Howard’s super is $330,000 a year plus freebies like a car with driver and a perpetually full tank, an office with secretary and a gold travel pass. I’m sure with a bit of belt tightening he and Janette could manage on $130,000 for one year.
Ah Gam
“The f-18 and f-35 are not strike aircraft. they are jacks of all trades and masters of none.”
excellent summary
#288 “He clearly used the kid as a last desperate ploy to win a few votes.”
Of course he did. As did Rudd with others. It is an election campaign. That is what they do. The leaders don’t criss cross the nation making promises with the media in tow just for the fun of it.
To get worthwhile range one bay will have to be filled with an aux fuel tank.
Note also that the 2 air to air missile bays will only take very short range Sidewinders.
The F-35 is primarily designed for ground attack in support of troops and armour, and as a secondary fighter in low risk situations. It is not designed to be an air superiority fighter.
Glen @217 Says:
The answer is in your question: USN stands for United States Navy.
Here is another clue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier
Glen – 272 – ‘high and mighty? that was the name of a Hollywood air war movie in the 1950s – are you channelling for John Wayne? Also ‘nelson got the best deal going fo a gap fighter’? We weren’t looking for a gap aircraft, the best brains said we don’t need one as the F-111 can go on until 2025 if necessary. By then we would have something else in service. Go look at that air power website.
Back from yard duty.
Glen has been shot down.
NO, he ran out of fuel…
Paper aeroplane…
Another good piece by Judith Brett, ‘The unravelling of John Howard’:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/16/2119907.htm
Jetsons..
Glen once again proves Basil’s Rule #101, amount of verbiage generated is inversely proportional to knowledge of subject. I expect this post will be deleted also as were several of mine last night.
I am an avid follower of this site and only an occaisonal contributor so therefore may lack membership of “the club” but may I ask one question– why the f—ck do you all spend so much time engaging in debate with the mystical glen who knows nothing yet knows everything– surely if you don’t encourage him he will either
1 go away
or 2
make some meaningful and worthwhile comments for a change
Gus, it’s a bit of sport, kind of like bear baiting web 2.0 style really.
Basil if its sport its something akin to Australia playing England at cricket and Glen sure as hell isn’t Australia
On le savait!
La Brette.
Apres….. l’evenement
Gus, shhhhh, he doesn’t know that, he thinks he is Bradman.
Any relation to face?
er, i didn’t read william’s posts calling for a ceasefire. terribly sorry.
He must be outside ,playing…
I keep saying that the tax cuts are not a good idea.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=65346
Regret to inform.
MIA.
Grave Fears.
Say, scaper…
…
…
Would you try my 274, in that case?
303 CW, No, la Brette wrote her Quarterly essay (from which this extract is taken) before the election, not after. See the following, published October 31:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/judith-brett/2007/10/31/1193618929372.html
Crikey Whitey
Rudd said he would govern for all the people including the non tax payers and I believe if there is tax reciepts that are to be returned as to speak, I would look at investing in infrastructure or reducing consumption tax or excise to halt inflation.
A bold move I know.
Scaper, agree, perhaps a good place to start would be taxes and excise on fuel, which has a dramatic effect on the cost of goods used by everyone. Couple this with a dramatic boost in research funding into alternative sources of non-polluting transportation energy so as to eventually move away from hydrocarbons. I really hope that Swanny decides to reduce the wedge tax cuts they were forced into, the vast majority of people polled would rather see better services.
Don’t see too many ads trumpeting the Australian Government these days, perhaps we can channel that disgraceful waste of money in reducing waiting lists in hospitals.
The Finnigans @ 275,
The Libs should pay for it?
Que?
Ummmm … refer the newspapers of 25/11 for news on who won the election ???!
Basil @ 313,
It would need a lot more money than Howard spent on ads to make any difference to the hospital system.
This elective surgery idea of Roxon’s is an absolute stunt – a complete joke.
Dyno, wasn’t the figure something approaching half a billion, I realise that won’t fix it but it would be a good start.
Giving money to the hospital system is not a bad idea per se (though earmarking it for elective surgery will just about ensure that nothing useful happens). You’ve also got to fix the rotten system that is completely bloated with administrators who don’t actually do anything to help patients!
The fact that Roxon’s very first act is such a silly one fills me with dread – not that I think she’s dumb (she probably isn’t), not that the idea itself is going to cause damage (it’s going to do nothing at all expect pad out a few administrative budgets), but she has sent a pretty clear early signal that playing political games is one of her top priorities.
Crikey re 274 and 310 is Labor’s Low Tax First Home Saver Accounts – Larger Deposits And Higher National Savings what you are alluding to?
http://www.alp.org.au/media/1107/mshou040.php
Roxon is a moron. Fancy not propping up the local hospital at PI. OK it’s not a state hospital but for christ sake it’s the only hospital the Island has.
For the sake of $2.5 million all the locals and tens of thousands of tourists could have had somewhere to go if they fell ill. Instead she plays petty politics. The hospital is located in the seat of Flinders which is a staunch Liberal seat. Of course the local member is shadow minister Greg Hunt.
Imagine the goodwill she would have generated if she’d saved the place. Instead she simply couldn’t give a stuff.
If Roxon had a commitment to health care and equity she would have moved to ensure the local residents had a hospital. Now they have to travel 40 minutes to either Wonthaggi or Inverloch. God help anyone in real strife.
She is a disgrace and a hack who only won preselection to her seat because of affirmative action. It shows.
Rant over.
Here’s an entertaining video of “Nelson’s” Battle of Trafalgar.
Should lighten the mood on a slow Sunday arvo.
http://www.abc.net.au/default.htm
“You’ve also got to fix the rotten system that is completely bloated with administrators who don’t actually do anything to help patients!”
this is a bit of a myth. while i don’t doubt some dead weight can be trimmed, hospital systems are biased towards having a high ratio of administrators to other staff positions. secondly a lot of people perform admin/oversight roles and medical roles as well. there aren’t thousands of champagne sipping managers just sitting around somewhere. earmarking money for elective surgery means you can actually pay surgeons, nurses and ot staff to actually perform the surgery. it means that hospitals will have more resources to spend elsewhere until the big infrastructure reforms get rolling.
health service provision is something where overspending can lead to adverse outcomes for patients as easily as underspending. the fact that they aren’t just throwing money around straight off the bat gives me hope that they’ll take advice and put in place a serious, overall strategy to fix things, instead of the piecemeal cherry picking we had from the old regime.
Thanks Scorpio 320, indeed a mood lightener. Oh well, as the bear has not appeared for his daily baiting, I am off to do something productive.
Sceptic @ 319
Why should the Labor Party start handing out public money to keep a private hospital afloat for the use of a bunch of superannuated Liberal voters?
If the demand for a hospital in that area were that great surely it would not be going broke? If it was just bad management which sent it broke then surely one of the larger private hospital operators would have gladly annexed it, got it running efficiently and made a packet off it?
Funny how the PI hospital was not on the verge of closing until just after the Howard government lost office. Why did we not hear about this hospital until after the election and why was Nelson so quick to make some mileage out of it by saying it was a test of how the Labor Party will run health?
Rant over
323
TurningWorm
The local lib member promised to bail out the hospital during the campaign – they did 5/8 of bugger all in the 3 years preceding the 2007 election but that’s neither here nor there. Now if it was in a Tasmanian marginal seat it might have received more attention from the rat and the mad monk but even then only in the last 6 months.
Question: what’s going to happen now to the Mersey Hospital? Will the Federal Government still be running it? It sure didn’t save the previous member for Braddon LOL
316 Basil-Sadly $600M would just keep the public hospital I work in afloat for twelve months. Spread over 700 public hospitals throughout Australia, it is a pittance.
317 Dyno and 321 Gam-The public hospital system is basically one huge administration with patient care a bit of a sideline. The best way to cover up underfunding is by overmanaging. Read “Hippocratic Oaths” by Tallis for a great view from trenches. for There are now more administrators than patients. The earmarked money for waiting lists is a shallow, populist vote-grabber which will do nothing to reform the system.
319 Sceptic- I believe I have precedence on referring to Roxon as a moron.
And to all of you, if Roxon doesn’t sack that disgraceful cow Jane Halton, it is sending a sign that she is going to take a politically expedient and morally bankrupt approach to her portfolio.
Diogenes wrote: “The public hospital system is basically one huge administration with patient care a bit of a sideline. The best way to cover up underfunding is by overmanaging. Read “Hippocratic Oaths” by Tallis for a great view from trenches. for There are now more administrators than patients. The earmarked money for waiting lists is a shallow, populist vote-grabber which will do nothing to reform the system.”
do you have any supporting evidence for that? i’d like to see it before i change my mind. the best stats i can find put expenditure on admin and r&d at 5.4% of total expenditure in 2001-2002 as opposed to around 20% for doctors’ services. my suspicion is that, like a lot of other services, the previous govt. simply refused to collect statistics it knew it wouldn’t like. this is why an actual infrastructure/organisational roll out will take time. it would be madness to just jump in and start sacking people left and right without getting a full picture of what’s going on.
why would roxon need to grab votes? it’s barely been 3 weeks since they won, let’s not get carried away here. if it was a cynical vote grabbing exercise, like cherry picking a hospital in a marginal electorate, would she be doing it now? why not closer to the election where there isn’t a chance for people to figure out it won’t work? this extra money might not fix the main problem (this will take years) but it will actually help people who have been waiting YEARS for help. and in the short term it will free up desperately needed money for other things for hospitals. if you remain unconvinced, i doubt you can be convinced, which is fair enough i suppose.
Steve K
I’m sure lots of Liberal candidates made lots of promises to their communities during the campaign as part of the Liberal party’s ‘All Politics Is Local’ campaign strategy.
My point was the hospital played a dirty game to try and force the new government into giving it a handout and the Liberal leader thought he would score a few points from the sidelines as well. That is not how this country works anymore.
Acknowledge, Acknowledge
311 apres
312
scaper…
318
Ed@Bennelong
Am in enemy encampment. Contact soonest.
Any news of G?
Over.
Ten Four.
327 gam- The waiting list money was announced as during the election campaign as a vote-grabber using the logic “everyone hears about long waiting lists, if we say we are going to spend money to reduce them, that’s just gotta be popular”. She is running with it now because she promised to do so in the election.
The people who have been waiting years are mostly NOT on the waiting lists. The public hospitals have manipulated the figures by stopping patients from even being seen in outpatients so they do NOT appear on the waiting lists. I know an orthopaedic surgeon who has 500 patients waiting to get in and see him in outpatients, but only 30 on his surgical waiting list.
In my state, five years ago there were the following levels of admin above me
1. Director of Surgery
2. CEO Hospital
3. CEO Health Department
4. Minister Health
Now there are
1. Director of Surgery
2. General Manager Hospital
3. Acute Service Director, Area
4. CEO, Area
5. Director of Systems, Health Department
6. CEO, Health Department
7. Minister Health
The book I mentioned has the figures for the UK on admin to patients. In our state, the figures are not released but I have seen internal figures which confirm an enormous number of staff not involved in patient care. I will get back to you with them when I can dig them up.
Basil
I’m getting the structure organised and I’ve made my play.
These sites will explain.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/meganomics/index.php/theaustralian/comments/pendulum_of_a_kind
http://blogs.news.com.au/news/blogocracy/index.php/news/comments/weekend_talkback27/P20/
Gam @ 327
To my very great suprise, I am able to comment on the public health service in WA from the viewpoint of a recent emergency patient. I have nothing but praise for the way the staff – the paramedics, doctors, nurses and after-care support staff – responded to my situation and that of the other patients in similar circumstances to mine. The system is obviously short of funds and there is a lot of competition for beds. But the people in the system did a great job for me in what was a dire situation. I feel i’m in safe hands, am treated with dignity, and that I will be given the best care by some very hard-working and well-organised professionals.
332 blindoptimist- Your experience is actually the most common. The more serious your condition, the better care you get in public hospitals. The hard thing is to give that standard of care to patients with a lower priority. Doctors, nurses and allied-health staff want everyone to get that standard of care. The administrators and politicians don’t because it would be more expensive.
Diogenes 333 and elsewhere – Isn’t one of the problems of the public health sector that hospitals double up as nursing homes and that the nursing home sector has been run down by the Howard Govt or at least, has not kept up with needs or is this another myth?
Diogenes, I guess the resource allocation decisions are made according to a set of priorities – I would imagine these include clinical urgency as well as all the direct and indirect costs of facitilies and staff. There is also a public interest in spending as much as needs to be spent, but not more. It is largely public money that is spent on heath care, afterall, and everyone has an interest in getting the best outcomes for the money that is committed.
But in a way it doesn’t make sense to say administrators and politicians are to blame for one set of results (the poor ones) but that they are not responsible for others (the good ones). The system is clearly not monolithic. In WA, some parts – cardiac care, for example, work very very well. But others do not. So the task really is to find out how come? And then to find ways to apply the results. This should be the object of reform of the public health system.
334
neophyte Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
“Diogenes 333 and elsewhere – Isn’t one of the problems of the public health sector that hospitals double up as nursing homes and that the nursing home sector has been run down by the Howard Govt or at least, has not kept up with needs or is this another myth?”
This is a fair comment, from my very limited observations…
334 neophyte- There is some truth in public hospitals becoming de facto nursing homes but I think that only 5% of patients in hospital at any time are waiting for a nursing home bed. These patients actually don’t use many resources as they just lie there with a bit of nursing input and not much else so it’s a bit of an urban myth that it’s a bit problem.
335 blindoptimist- “But in a way it doesn’t make sense to say administrators and politicians are to blame for one set of results (the poor ones) but that they are not responsible for others (the good ones).” I could argue that most of the good outcomes are when administrators are not involved which mainly happens in urgent situations, and that when administrators get involved it all turns to sh*t, but I won’t because it’s only 90% true.
Onyer Blindoptimist @332
Majority do, overall the system isn’t as bad as the MSM would make it out to be.
But it does have problems, which are systemic ones, and will always be with us, very common across all OECD countries with public funded health systems. They aren’t unique to federated governance styles like ours either. Canada with its Province/Commonwealth system has the same problems, same issues, same difficulty in providing world-class service with limited resources. Some of those resources are outside of government or its administrators control.
As for admin, I do beg to differ with Diogenes though, partly because its just not as simple as blaming administrators and/or politicians.
The Liberal Party has always stood for fully privatised health system on the Americanised model. Public hospitals in the USA are bottom-grade service for bottom-grade people (although they vary a lot in quality across different states) Americans accept this as part of their own cultural landscape. You get what you pay for. And if you can’t afford it, well *tough*, do without. Almost all other OECD countries have major public-funded systems with much smaller private sectors if they have any at all.
Things like waiting-list blow-outs are a constant problem right across the OECD (minus the USA) They have annual OECD-Health Directorate global projects on public hospital waiting-list management, amongst other things.
Over the 11.5 years of the Howard govt, the privatisation of health care proceeded apace as a standard policy platform, one part of this was to divert health spending into private hospitals. Another part was to withdraw funding from the AHCAs and force the States into a situation where they would be held fully responsible/accountable for delivering the service to the poor.
Around 2% of GDP which should have gone to the States/Territories was withdrawn after the GST came in. This is all wrapped up in terms like vertical fiscal imbalance, and horizontal fiscal equalisation.
Different States tried different experiments to cope with the CW funding shortfall, some tried increasing privatisation, floating ideas like a flat-fee of $100 for all presenting to emergency departments, some sold off hospital wings to the private sector, or ‘co-located’ services like sharing food, cleaning, nursing, path lab, X-ray services etc, some tried service-contracts with private hospitals to undertake public patients on a sessional fee basis etc.
Others tried to amalgamate hospitals into regional health service areas, and make them *compete* for annual funding, so some got more than others, depending on internal politics, who can scream the loudest, or who has the best gift of the gab in the annual scramble for funding.
Victoria for some time back in the 90s, set heavy financial penalties on individual hospitals who couldn’t reach state-set performance targets for cost-cutting, like on patient length-of-stay. The hospital was forced to kick patients out early, or use hospital-in-the-home alternatives or face funding cuts. This often led to increases in “unplanned readmissions” and “unplanned returns to theatre”, and post-surgical infection rates with reduced post-op care, rehab, and physio.
SA did something silly in the other way, but only briefly. They accidentally set a “perverse incentive”. In recognition that patients with co-morbid diabetes needed more nursing care, longer lengths of in-patient care, path & diagnostics etc, more than non-diabetic health patients. SA health allowed an extra $500 per patient with co-morbid diabetes.
Almost immediately, 3 major tertiary teaching hospitals started diagnosing co-morbid diabetes in every other patient *chuckle*. When I saw the monthly SA stats, a few phone calls to South Oz along the lines of “How come SA suddenly recording 5 times the national average of diabetics?” hehehehe…
In short though, States were starved deliberately of CW funding, and of very large sums, thats why infrastructure, not just health and education has deteriorated.
They have had little choice but to cut services, or raise their own taxes, fees etc, and local government was badly hit in some areas, along with welfare services, disability services and public housing.
Different States have tried different tricks or experiments to cope with the shortfall in different ways. Some more imaginative than others, some more successfully than others, dependent on their own economy and capacity, and possibly just luck, I guess.
Thats why local councils havent got 2c to repair the roads, and families of 5 die. Then along comes Howard/Costello every election time to regional pork-barrell in targetted regions.
I may be a very ‘lone voice’, but to me I’m surprised the States have been able to deliver as much as they have, and its no wonder so many are in debt.
338
Rain Says:
The real question is, which country has a better system. I can’t think of any.
Thanks Rain for the holistic view of 338. I’ve copied it to my desktop so as to remember and maintain the rage.
“Diogenes 333 and elsewhere – Isn’t one of the problems of the public health sector that hospitals double up as nursing homes and that the nursing home sector has been run down by the Howard Govt or at least, has not kept up with needs or is this another myth?”
This is a fair comment, from my very limited observations…
_________________________________________________________________
Not true, though States have often let that myth circulate.
Aged care has always been federal responsibility, though there are historical state funded ones and other private or semi-private services around.
While there are national needs-based guidelines and formulae for allocation of aged care services and beds, Howard/Costello did unbalance it, to a degree, by region/electorate, some got plenty, some got bugger all.
The other issue is they are two different systems of care, and transition between the two systems can reach bottlenecks in different times and places.
One of my colleagues once used the analogy of “wheels”… Hospitals are spinning fast, with hundreds of thousands in-and-out on an average of 3-day stays. High through-put.
Aged care homes have an average of 3-year stays with long-term care and so are spinning slowly, with low throughput.
If you have one wheel spinning very fast and another spinning very slowly, what happens when you put them together? CRUNCH. You need a “clutch” or gearing system
Sometimes called sub-acute or step-down care in health systems.
Hospitals want to discharge fast, “revolving doors”, aged care homes need more time to get beds and care organised. Often with old people, for example with strokes, the families need several days or even weeks to come to terms with the situation, and make arrangements. Sometimes a combination of care-at-home packages might be appropriate, but this takes time to organise.
hospitals get pissed off, as in “we need that friggin bed *now*, for the next emergency, we got em piled up downstairs!” So its all the friggin Commonwealth’s fault for not making enough aged care beds available.. and the media takes it up and you get the picture?
341 Rain-I agree with almost everything you say. When I used the term “politician” I was referring to State and Federal. The bottom line is that hospitals are underfunded for what the public has come to expect from them. There are only three honest ways to fix this.
1. Increase funding (ie raise taxes)
2. Reduce publics expectations (a la USA)
3. Increase efficiency (which is fairly limited in what it can do and difficult)
The health systems have hugely expanded their bureaucracy to help do 3. but have found it almost impossible to do so and so now the bureaucrats mainly manage each other. I honestly cannot remember a good initiative from any of our Health Ministers which has worked in ten years.
Excellent. Let’s ensure there are no hospitals to service towns that have a large Liberal voting population. That’ll teach them won’t it!
Excellent point. Let’s only keep hospitals open if they make money, regardless whether there are adequate facilities to service the country area. In fact let’s extend the principal to all metropolitan areas. Hospital should be money making ventures and not a facility to treat sick and frail people.
Don’t really see your point. The fact is the hospital is on the verge of closing now. A re-elected Howard government would have faced the same problem.
Because the ALP said that with hospitals they would end the blame game. Instead Roxon is blaming the local authority and is referring the matter to James Merlino (the state minister), Merlino says it is a matter for the federal government, and in the meantime local residents (some of whom who probably vote labor) lose their only local hospital.
Rant over.
Beautifully argued at #323 though.
Those of you who want to indulge your loathing for the Murdoch press will enjoy this piece by Paul Kelly:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22926587-5013871,00.html
In it he makes clear that it was the obnoxious drunken News Ltd hack and Costello toady Glen Milne who, by leaking the McLachlan letter in the hope of bringing on a Costello leadership challange in 2006, ensured that in fact Howard would stay on and lead the Libs to disaster, thus inadvertantly destroying Costello’s hopes of the prime ministership. Poetic justice for all: Howard defeated, Costello thwarted, Milne exposed as a meddling incompetent grub.
Diogenes, my brother in law mentioned to me that 90% of health care money is spent on patients who live less than 3 months.
He is not a doctor, but is no fool. is this based on a semblance of fact or just a wild exageration?
345 Fulvio- There is no way that is true. Most Medicare payments are for GP visits and minor operations. Most PBS scripts are for long-term illnesses (esp for cholesterol and high blood pressure). So for most Federal funding that is not true. In public hospitals, almost everyone lives more than 3 months after discharge and very few die in hospital. Of the sickest who require intensive (or expensive) care, 75% of them live more than 3 months. Most administrators complain (tongue in cheek) that the problem is that medicine is now so good at looking after our sickest and most chronic patients that they refuse to die and so cost them money! Certainly there are huge amounts spent on some patients with cancer with a poor prognosis on some intensive care patients but they are the minority.
Overall, I’ll go with wild exaggeration.
Fulvio @ 345 “..my brother in law mentioned to me that 90% of health care money is spent on patients who live less than 3 months…”
The amount is an exaggeration, but is one of the issues plaguing health economists, ie: spending on “the last year of life” (not last 3 months). Also wrapped up in public expectations, better life expectancy, better technology etc, we all want access to it, and for free.
The top 3 main cost-drivers of health expenditure are:
- new technology (including pathology/diagnostics, eg MRI, and medications on PBS subsidy)
- rapidly increasing complex chronic diseases in all population groups
(diabetes, CV disease)
- last year of life
I’m currently working on 5-10 year economic models for diabetes and musculoskeletal diseases like arthritis, comparing the cost of public health prevention programs, versus the likely impact of life-long medications, GP and specialist, and allied health services, and regular hospitalisations. Diabetics are freaking expensive bludgers, and prevention by making those fat arses get off their butts, will save the taxpayer a lot of money in the future.
This isn’t as good as Glenn Milne revealing that Downer had a chat with Howard late last year and said words to the effect – all the issues are now favouring Labor, the voters aren’t buying economic management, and national security anymore. Downer pleaded with Howard to come up with a new big issue to take attention away from Labor, but Howard simply replied “We have done everything we wanted to do.”
In other words, over the last 12 – 18 months leading up to the election Howard had completely run out of any ideas of how to make the country better. He had absolutely no intention of doing anything new, he just wanted to stay P.M. for a) the sake of staying P.M. and b) because it meant he could stop Costello from becoming P.M.!
This act alone should change the way historians treat the Howard legacy. At the end he didn’t care what happened to the country, or his political party. He just wanted to stay P.M. to stop others from assuming the job.
Thank dog the Australian voting public put him out of his misery.
Diogenes and Rain, thanks for the perspective.
Sceptic @ 343
How is Nicola Roxon playing the blame game by blaming the local authority?
By local authority I am guessing you mean the board that runs the hospital?
The private hospital?
Is it wrong to blame a private entity for not being able to run itself at a profit or to at least fund it’s own activities? If this private entity was running at a profit would they be offering a share to the federal government?
Has Nicola Roxon not held meetings with the hospital to organise moving the patients to alternative, even public facilities?
But I’m sure you are right, if not for affirmative action we would be having someone of the calibre of Tony Abbott sorting this situation out good and proper.
OK, OK. One more whack back then we’ll call it square OK?
PS: the problem with the last year of life, is that it can’t be predicted. Its only in the aftermath you can pinpoint that it really was the last year of life, like cancer victims mostly.
Chemotherapy, palliative care medicines, radiotherapy – are very costly, but with improvements in cancer diagnosis, management and treatments generally, more are living longer, or going into remission for longer periods, and hence costing more… the diagnosis of *terminal* is becoming more fuzzy.
And of course, patient expectations, we expect the system to “leave no stone unturned” on the possibility that this treatment may be the miracle for our loved ones. Same with some surgical techniques, really is it worth giving a 95-yr old their 4th hip-replacement? But Aussies do scream if you don’t do it…
This was the issue with herceptin for breast cancer, herceptin costs a freaking fortune, it works for *some*, but not for most, but Australians kick up a big stink if its just not free for everybody.
Same with pathology and diagnostics, patient expectations are that we must not leave any stone unturned, must all have every scan, blood test, MRI, CT, prod and poke, going, do you know how much MRI scanners cost? *shudder*
Adam @ 344
Thanks for the link to Professor Pompous’s article on El Rodente pissing down his leg.
I recommend to all “Poll Dancing” by Mungo. Funny, brilliant commentary on the year-long election campaign from the eternal Labor-voting pessimist and truly brilliant wordsmith.
On health care. I’ve never been a health professional, just humble statistician for Medicare/PBS.
I have had two instances of emergency care in my adult life. Both back related and I can only commend the Canberra Hospital and the Winchester (UK) Hospital for removing/reducing my misery. My complaint on both occasions was slight in the greater scheme of things was slight, but extremely blo*ody painful On both occasions I was struck by their professionalism and their caring nature.
Anyone who wants to have a “laugh” about political interference in the health system should read Chris Brookmyre’s satirical novel “Country of the Blind”
http://www.brookmyre.co.uk/book2.htm
I’m sure some Hospital Administrator’s have similar wishes to the baddie’s.
Sorry, the link should be to
http://www.brookmyre.co.uk/book1.htm
and to “QUITE UGLY ONE MORNING”
Red cordials are NOT condusive to cutting and pasting
Rain is completely right about the last year of life. Doctors NEVER use cost as an argument not to provide a treatment to an individual patient. The treatment may not be available due to cost, but once it is it’s open slather.
Rain- I’ve been reading that the problems of obesity is have been wildly exaggerated. Except for the morbidly obese and those with complications like diabetes and osteoarthritis, most overweight people do just fine from a morbidity and mortality point of view. Is this not true economically?
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=000E5065-2345-128A-9E1583414B7F0000
I am being slack,can someone tell me the actual seats for the winners and seats for the jokes, in the house of Reps and Senate .
Turning Worm #350
Why don’t the Federal government take over the little local hospital? It would cost only $2.5 million and would put some substance behind the mantra of ending the “blame game”. Aren’t the people at PI entitled to a public hospital like everyone else? In fact aren’t they entitled to any hospital.
PI is also a very popular tourism centre. The motorcycle GP & the penguins are but two of the major attractions down there. I would have thought it was in the public interest to have a functioning hospital down there.
Yes Roxon is organising for people to be moved. To the nearest public facilities 50km away. Pretty tough on elderly relatives and those with limited transport. But thanks anyway.
An opportunity lost. She had the power to put into practice what she was spruiking in opposition. In the end it was just too difficult.
Good on her.
Diogenes – its more the long-term epidemiological adjustments on age-group, so exctraolating out 5,10, 15 years etc, and secondly lack of consistency on available clinical risk-assessment tools.
Thirdly, our economic models also go beyond just health system economics – but general economic markers, and include things like work-related illness (eg sick-days), workforce participation rates, injury, and mental health (eg depression)
Its going down the age-ranges, baby-boomers are generally very healthy, but health status is clearly dropping down each 10-year age group, down to the kids, Obesity is just one of the health ‘risk factors’ or ‘markers’ of poorer health status. More risk factors you have, up goes the probabilities, even on injury rates, days off work, depression etc.
Well if the good people of PI don’t like the way the fed government is treating them then they should vote liberal in 2010….oh, that’s right, their fed member is a liberal….I wonder why he didn’t do anything about their plight.
Steve K, this was a chance for Labor to win some votes by ‘ending the blame game’…the whole issue here is whether a moderate sized rural community deserve a functioning hospital regardless of whether it is public or private??
Roxon’s mantra of ending the blame game i guess was just a non-core policy….
Either Roxon doesnt understand her own policy or she is gutless…either way not a flash start as Health Minister.
Steve K it didn’t go belly up until now! The Brumby government could of done something but ideologically they decided not to and buck pass to Roxon who then buck passed back to Brumby.
This example of Labor in government wont win them any votes in PI i can tell you that.
Steve K Says: “Well if the good people of PI don’t like the way the fed government is treating them then they should vote liberal in 2010….oh, that’s right, their fed member is a liberal….I wonder why he didn’t do anything about their plight.”
45-60 minutes to alternative high-quality well-equipped services isn’t a drama, even got a choice of alternate services… *sheesh*, talk about spoiled!
GPs with a practice-nurse and after-hours service would be fine, pick up a locum or a registrar or two, for the tourist season. Along with the red-and-gold caps, whats your problem?
Another option, give the good Liberal folk some OTDs, the poor rural areas accept their share of Paki doctors with hard-to-understand English (but very impressive qualifications), with very good grace for the most part, and are grateful to have anybody who knows one end of a stethoscope from the other, and whether they vote Liberal or not.
If you save that one, the good folk of many areas across the whole continent who are 2, 4 and 5 hours, and more from a hospital of any description, and have seen their little 20-bedders close down over the years, (whether they voted Liberal or not) would probably be quite justified in crying unfair.
The problem with single seat per electorate systems is that if you live in a safe seat then your vote counts less because the major parties allocate most of their electoral persuasive power on seats that are likely to change hands.
So to make most votes count multi-member electorates with PR (or or whole of jurisdiction PR) are needed.
It is unacceptable that in our country a community of several thousand can be left without a hospital.
I don’t care who stuffed it or who is to blame. Just fix it.
Yes, it was a private hospital. But why did a succession of governments bludge on their responsibilities and not have a proper public health system in place? Instead the politicians blame the little private hospital when it loses money and can’t keep trading.
The new health minister then pretends to provide a sympatheric ear, refuses to help, but generously assists in facilitating the transfer of patients 50km away.
It stinks.
So much for ending the blame game and protecting the rights of rural communities to have access to a local hospital. If the federal government, a new labor government, can’t intervene here then when can they?
Maybe in a marginal seat closer to an election?
How much would it take each year to keep that unprofitable hospital going?
$2.5 million. The population is about 2,500.
Rain (#351) has cited the MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) as an example of how government costs can blow out in the medical system.
I offer my families experience as evidence that the equations are not necessarily self evident.
By way of background I provide the following context. I am 51, my wife is 49 and, as we were both lucky enough to receive free tertiary education in the late 1970s, thanks to the initiatives of the Whitlam Government, we both have professional jobs and earn just over $100k gross combined a year.
We have always kept up private health insurance – even when on one income due to young kids and during periods of unemployment. Our two children are 17 and 12 years of age. We are fairly typical ‘tail end baby boomers’.
In late 2005 my wife had a single mastectomy, followed by radiation and chemotherapy during 2006, and a breast reconstruction in Dec. 2006. As her lymph nodes had been clear when removed at part of the mastectomy, and scans following treatment were clear, we were confident that all that could be done had been done, and were hopeful of a positive outcome. (Being ‘triple negative’ in terms of hormone responsiveness, Herceptin was not a treatment option in my wife’s case.)
Unfortunately, early this year my wife was diagnosed with secondary metastatic cancer in her bones – principally spine and hips. This is the classic manifestation for breast cancer. Further radiation treatment and a surgical procedure to strengthen one leg followed.
Through all of this we have been fortunate to be able to access timely services due to private health cover. The one exception to this is MRI scans.
As the radiation treatment did not appear to be ‘holding its own’, my wife went into hospital for tests and observation in the middle of the year. This included 2 MRI scans (as the spread is too great to cover with a single scan.)
Bloggers may recall the ’scandal’ in the early 2000s of alleged leaked details of changed arrangements to funding of MRI and additional machines apparenty being brought into the country by the private system in advance of the changes. The political ’solution’ to avoid ‘over-servicing’ was to not allocate medicare ‘item numbers’ to many machines in private hospitals.
Apparently the machine in the large western suburbs (Melb.) private hospital attached to the radiation oncology service my wife attends is one such machine.
As an ‘in-patient’:
* IF the machine had an item number, we would have received a rebate from our health fund and paid the difference ourselves – i.e. no cost to Medicare.
* WITHOUT an ‘Item Number’ we had to meet the full cost.
If my wife had been an ‘out-patient’:
* IF the machine had an ‘item number’, even if we had received no rebate, the cost would have at least been recognised for the $1,000 Medicare ‘Safety net’.
* WITHOUT an ‘item number’, not only did we have to pay the full cost – approx. $500 – but this cost was not recognised for the purposes of the ’safety net’.
Notwithstanding my obvious personal bias, this situation seems ridiculous to me.
Where is the ‘downside’ in allocating an ‘item number’ for limited use of ‘private’ MRI services by patients with advanced cancer – but without Medicare rebate – on a ‘twice yearly basis’? This would at least ensure that those with private insurance would use the private machines, rather than extend the waiting lists for public machines.
This year we were able to afford to meet the full cost. Next year, by which time my wife will have resigned from work and we will be on a single income, we will not be able to afford the $500 and so will be in the queue for the public machine as a day patient, even though we have private insurance.
In the case of secondary breast cancer the average life expectancy is 3-4 years from diagnosis, less if the cancer has progressed to the organs. My wife’s oncologist states that the primary diagnostic tool is one question: “How are you feeling?” In that context, an MRI scan can identify in a timely way the extent of spread of the cancer (e.g. to organs) when the patient reports that they are feeling consistently poorly. The sooner the spread of cancer to organs is identified the sooner modified treatment can be commenced, quality of life maintained and life prolonged.
Surely an item number to allow those in our situation to obtain a rebate from private medical insurers at no cost to Medicare is not unreasonable. If it resulted in shortened waiting lists for public MRI machines, as I am certain it would, a net saving would result for the public system.
Our age group in many respects ‘fell through the gaps’ relative to the older baby boomers.
(While we did get free tertiary education we received no ‘first home buyers grants’ – fell between the old and new schemes – and paid for our house at 18%+ interest during the massive inflation of the Rodents period as Treasurer, prior to bank de-regulation. Likewise, we missed out on the various ‘baby bonuses’ of recent years, as well as the child tax incentives of the 1980s.)
We have pretty much ‘done it on our own, although I acknowledge that, in other respects, many of ‘genX’ have also had it tough.
All I am asking is that a service so many women in the 45 – 55 age cohort need to access is recognised with an ‘item number’, so that their families can receive whatever reimbursement that this would entitle them to from their health funds. Reimbursement that would come at a time when they both face many unavoidable costs and reduced income resulting from the same disease.
No doubt this item number would also be of use to those suffering other forms of cancer, which would similarly reduce the public waiting lists.
If the government propped up this private hospital what would stop other private hospitals asking for the same help and where would it end? Wouldn’t these private hospitals just become public hospitals if government money propped them up?
Libs stand for nothing: report
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/libs-stand-for-nothing/2007/12/16/1197740090743.html
Some people take the point of view that governments purposely neglect the hospital system but what would be one sure way to get yourself as a government much kudos and re-elected the following election? By fixing the bloody the health system. Not one state or federal government has done so. Ever thought the task might just be too difficult or that the money needed is just too way out there? Of course you may have the answer, if so please tell the government, any government what it is.
Gary #366
In some communities some private hospitals compete with other public hospitals. We are not talking about assisting these private hospitals.
We are only referring to private hospitals where there are no public hospitals available.
In the case of PI the only hospital in town is a private hospital. Governments have saved a fortune over the years not providing public health services into this area. Rather they have bludged off the presence of the private hospital and not invested in public health as they should have.
Now that the private hospital can’t continue the government should be obliged to fill the void and provide health services to a significant population, regardless of the political persuasion of that population.
Rather the new health minister flicks the problem to the nearest health facility 50km away.
Sceptic,
Any chance you could explain why two Private Hospitals were forced to close in my town in the last six years?
We still have a public Base Hospital and a Mater, but due to financial considerations the other two closed.
Funnily enough, wasn’t that under a Coalition, Federal Government? I can’t remember any hugh and cry for Federal intervention in these closures or any offer by the Libs to help out to keep them running at considerable loss!
The new Labor Government seems to have to operate under different principles to it’s predecessor. I wonder why?
At least you’ve still got a hospital Scorpio.
The population of PI don’t have anything.
Tom the 1st @ #361
Totally agree.
Some examples:
1. Multi-Member Electorate: Wannon, Corangamite & Ballarat.
2. M-M E: Mallee, Bendigo & Murray,
3. M-M E: Indi, McEwen, Casey
4. M-M E: Gippsland, McMillan, LaTrobe
Still 12 members, but 3 to each of 4 electorates.
Much better for all concerned than 12 single member electorates.
currently 37 Victorian electorates.
11×3 member electorates + 33members (quota = 25%+1)
1×4 member electorate (based on Melbourne / C.B.D.?) (quota=20%+1)
All voters are winners – even the Greens in Melb.)
Polies mightn’t like it though!
How many private hospitals in Australia are in the same position as PI ie are not in a community where the private hospital competes with a public hospital?
Scorpio consider this you live on PI, the nearest public hospital is 50km away how would you feel if the only hospital close to you was being closed down because State and Federal Health Ministers were buck passing???
Forget private/public it’s bull butter and you know it, the fact is there is no public hospital on PI why isnt there why has the State government failed to provide one??? These people have no choice they dont care whether its a private or public hospital closing the fact is its their hospital and its closing because Roxon and the State Minister wont stop it!
Any reasonably sized rural area deserves a hospital whether public or private, this clap trap from Labor is just ideological IMHO.
These people will have no hospital within 50km of them!
The whole point of this end the blame game (non-core promise) was to stop this kind of buck passing!
gary bruce wrote: “If the government propped up this private hospital what would stop other private hospitals asking for the same help and where would it end? Wouldn’t these private hospitals just become public hospitals if government money propped them up?”
behold the perils of a govt. subsidised private health system. the market can look after itself. after years of diverting taxpayer money to shareholders pockets the private health industry should finally get its chance to prove howard and abbott right and show the hidden hand of the market can provide the best health care. the public system can spend the billions of dollars saved on infrastructure and allied health salaries. in tandem with the announcement of an ending of subsidies, holders of private health insurance should be mailed a pamphlet on how to start a class action lawsuit and directions to a local public hospital, just in case.
So the answer to PI’s hospital problem is for a government to take it over? Would that be the answer to other private hospitals in a comparable situation?
glen wrotr: “Scorpio consider this you live on PI, the nearest public hospital is 50km away how would you feel if the only hospital close to you was being closed down because State and Federal Health Ministers were buck passing???”
oh oh! i know the answer to this one! is it blame a 3 week old labor government!? i mean the other lot were only around for 11 years, how could they or the local liberal member have known that the only hospital for 50km was on its last legs?
So we should have a policy of “no person shall live more than 50 kms from a hospital in Australia”
Cardster @ “On health care. I’ve never been a health professional, just humble statistician for Medicare/PBS”
A shitty job, but somebody has to do it *hugs*
Aww..wouldn’t say *humble*, somebody has to monitor the trends
I too am Canberran, and spent many visits to Canberra Hospital, with a family it tends to be one of those places that you end up at sooner or later, and more often than you might choose.
My own most recent visit in 2002, was a complete statistical outlier though.
Or thats what I keep telling myself.
Must have been a really bad month. I had a bad fall at home, broke ankle badly and tore the knee ligaments. Had to have the ankle surgically re-constructed.
Had no problem getting a bed, or into theatre, No ‘Access Block’,
but had big problems in staying in the bed –
also :
had bad reaction to general anaesthetic,
the old lady in the next bed with a broken arm was also a severe senile dementia case, (and a danger to herself, staff and other patients),
and a car accident victim with horrific multiple fractures was screaming in full body traction all night..
so, I was kicked out too early, cos of severe staff and bed shortages, had to steal a wheelchair to go find some crutches lying around.
8 days later rushed back at 4am on a freezing winter week night, emergency triage 1, wasn’t breathing too well, convulsing with shocking lower chest/upper abdominal pain (and a torn knee/broken ankle in a cast). I saw a silly 5th year med student or intern who suspected it was an ectopic pregnancy and wanted a full ob/gyn history between convulsions.
The more experienced nurse gritting her teeth at my next set of convulsions, found a more senior ED doctor, who took one look at the leg, asked about my surgery and sent for my previous case-file. As I blacked out, the last I heard was “Suspected PE”.
I woke up a little going into the mini-ICU with all the blinken-lights and beepy-beeps, and then imagining I’m Seven-of-Nine with Borg implants.
The morphine had kicked in… nice stuff that…
Multiple bilateral PE, must have been an interesting case, had all these arrogant consultants/specialists hovering for awhile there, (and when they found out where I worked, gave me a stern lecture on *what should be done* with Medical Indemnity), and then, they seriously considered sending me on HITH because they needed the bed?
and I had to argue with the hospital casemix coder that I was NOT a “new admission”, but an “unplanned readmission; complications arising from previous admission”,( I believe in accurate statistical coding *grin*).
but I ensured I was NOT discharged early that time, and got the full treatment including my first month supply of rat-poison, cool painkillers, physio, home-help and home-nursing followup, and full papers for my GP.
Who like all GPs, then spent most of the over-priced non-bulk-billed consult, complaining about all those incompetent hospital specialist doctors, and then got all huffy when I insisted the blood-testing should go to my preferred path lab, and not his.
But I still maintain it must have been an aberration on the stats.
Besides, it worked out in the end.
but if I never see the inside of that hospital again, It’ll be way too soon
377
gam – read the Constitution the States are responsible for Health!
Apology ‘must say removals were evil’
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22934597-601,00.html
Details of the meeting emerged yesterday as Ms O’Donoghue backed a push for a $1billion compensation fund to be established for the Stolen Generation, saying an apology without compensation “won’t settle anything”, while compensation would head off the potential for “a litany of court cases”.
It was endorsed yesterday by Ms O’Donoghue and alliance co-chair Christine King, who said it was “absolutely” appropriate to describe Australia’s child separation policies as cruel and evil.
“Aboriginal people will not move on until this matter is resolved,” Ms O’Donoghue said. Without compensation, the Government would be faced with “a litany of Trevorrows, a litany of court cases”.
What was ‘cruel’ and ‘evil’ were the living conditions of some of those aboriginal children back then, sure many were taken care of well but others werent.
In hindsight it wasn’t correct but back then people genuinely thought they were doing what was best for the children.
Thanks Prime Minister Rudd for saying ’sorry’ for something we didnt do, you’re going to cost us 1b + or a litany of lawsuits…that money would be better spent on Aboriginal health and education and employment opportunities for young aboriginals IMHO.
glen 380: “gam – read the Constitution the States are responsible for Health!”
so that means the federal health minister is responsible for nothing? explains the last 11 years…
glen 381: “Thanks Prime Minister Rudd for saying ’sorry’ for something we didnt do, you’re going to cost us 1b + or a litany of lawsuits…”
why is doing the right thing so difficult for liberals? if i say sorry your grandmother died does it mean i killed her? also what on earth makes you think any compensation would be in the form of cash handouts? seriously, ever since your side of politics discovered indigenous australians existed a couple of months ago you think you know all there is to know about them don’t you?
Geeez…only a few weeks and it is obvious we are going to get three years of Glen slagging off at Labor on anything and everything, whining and whinging and nit picking on everything simply because they are Labor… meanwhile Howard’s 11 years of self serving rule, wasting Australia’s prosperity…well that was a good thing no doubt.
See you all in three years…when I turn the channel on again..no doubt like a cheap soap opera the same whining will be going on.
Glen you can argue we won a war, get over it, but you can’t argue it didn’t happen.
That really is the Liberal parties problem at the moment, reality denial, it does get tiresome.
Thanks to the reasoned commentators in this thread for their input on the health issue (interspersed by the rabid barking of Glen).
It is obvious to me that we need to move to one level of administration for Health, and Federal seems to be the most logical choice. We have the medicare levy in place, so funding could be made transparent and adjustable to meet needs. The duplication in the system now must be wasting millions of dollars, coupled with the lack of uniformity across state boundaries. Memo to pollies “No more blame games please”
On further consideration, get rid of the States altogether!
Re: the PI private hospital
If it were my decision I would want to know a lot more about the PI hospital before I committed public funds as a bail out. The argument that Fed labor could win votes by bailing out a private hospital in a liberal seat is too cynical for me to contemplate. I am pleased to see that so far neither state nor federal governments have jump at that opportunity. The previous Fed government had plenty of time to address the issues relating to this matter yet they did nothing other than make promises during an election campaign.
I would insist that a full independent audit of the finances of the hospital take place. If it is found that it has been poorly run then that must be dealt with. If it is determined that with good management the hospital could operate soundly without a LARGE injection of public funds then I would offer support. Personally I think that a distance of 50k to the nearest hospital is reasonable. If every community of 2,500 were to receive their own hospital then I’d imagine the health budget would blow out completely.
I hope that both the state and federal governments continue to reject the call for some knee jerk intervention as, if they cave in, there could follow many other cries for cash from other private operators (who after all are in it to make a profit) across the country.
The more striking note of the article posted by Adam at 344
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22926587-5013871,00.html
is how it highlights Howards cowardence.
“ON the morning of Tuesday, September 4, at Phillip Street in Sydney, John Howard began to brief Alexander Downer on the terms necessary for him to quit the prime ministership in a few days.”
Since February bloggers have been speculating about how Howard would try and avoid personally facing defeat.
The most favoured option was an illnes for either Howard and/or Jannette forcing an early exit, undefeat from the battlefield.
This option was discounted by Howard, either did not want to tempt fate or could not trust any doctor to be in on the ruse.
After almost a year of throwing mud at Rudd, launching his aboriginal Tampa and tryiong the Haneef terror scare option Howard realised he was gone,as the article notes.
So, this quivering mass of jelly asked his party to dispatch him as he lacked the courage to fall on his own sword. Above all he wanted his reputation preserved. The article paints it as the party not prepared to risk Costello at such a late stage.
More likely those in the party were so repulsed by this act of self serving interest and lack of courage that that none were able to take up the sword.
I’m sure there have been similar instances in history where a general/ leader has asked his followers to dispatch him to save his reputation. Dpending on their reputation some have had their last wish fulfilled others have seen their troops turn away in disgust.
380 [gam - read the Constitution the States are responsible for Health!]
Glen, here is the constitution, which bit pins responsibility for health on the states?
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/
“blame game”
n. In Australian politics, the term applied to the practice by federal and state governments of blaming each other for failures to meet public expectations, particularly in health sevices.
Of course it was inevitable that the first time Nicola Roxon decided not to give a handout to any hospital that wanted one she would be accused of breaking the “blame game” promise, however inappropriately the term applies. In the first place, I haven’t heard Roxon actually blame anyone for the closing of the PI hospital. She has simply declined to prop up a hospital that’s losing money. Secondly, there is no dispute between the federal and Victorian governments over the PI hospital.
It is likely that there will be many opportunities for “blame game” to be thrown back at Labor in the years ahead, but this isn’t one of them.
Glen, the constitution was changed in 1946 as follows:
“Originally the only Commonwealth health power was in quarantine matters. However, in 1946 the Constitution was amended to enable the Commonwealth to provide health benefits and services, without altering the powers of the States in this regard. Consequently the two levels of government have overlapping responsibilities in this field.
The Commonwealth currently has a leadership role in policy making and particularly in national issues like public health, research and national information management.”
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/healthsystem-overview-1-Introduction
# 367 -
Now the Victorian Liberals’ own internal reporting shows they “stand for nothing” (which I think to be rather true)? Is there a state Liberal party that is not in turmoil at the moment?
While some are saying this may be the end of the Nationals, they seem to be maintaining a level of grace in the face of the Liberals’ chaos. In fact, they have a great deal of respect in Victoria. I have strong memories of Peter Ryan (the Nationals’ leader) and his impassioned “Survivor Spring Street” speech at the last state election, where the Nationals actually went on to gain seats.
We have an hour break from study sessions here at the re-education camp. Was a very gruelling day yesterday, the Comrade Leader led us in a discussion about the Bali Conference.
We were asked to discuss the conference and Minister Wong’s role in it. It was very illuminating and educational. Initially I started with my reactionary pig-dog views that the conference was a classic UN junket with lots of hangers on and spivs who saw climate change as the next nuclear disarmament gig with lots and lots of trips and conferences and absolutely no real commitment to change anything.
After a very physical session followed by an intense self-criticism session in the workgroup I now see the error of my ways. Thank God we have Minister Wong selflessly giving of herself for all of us!
I am at peace now!
ESJ St Penny will become your guiding light. You can have the last laugh when she makes Swannie and Smith’s jobs effectively obsolete.
392 [I am at peace now!]
Well ESJ’ you could have knocked me over with a feather. Another miracle cure. I thought it took a year of re – education for every month spent in the groupthink of a conservative cult. Why do I remain sceptical that we won’t see you revert to the revolving door syndrome and finish up exactly where you started?
379 Rain- You are a bit of an aberration statistically. The incidence of PE post-knee reconstrustion is very low. The mortality from multiple bliateral PEs is very high and we are lucky to have you with us! (Watch out for venous leg ulcers in the future but otherwise you should be fine). A little birdie told me Canberra’s last Department Health CEO who is now SA’s Health CEO (with the sobriquet Napoleon) might be heading back to Canberra Federal Health. He would not be sadly missed here.
Re the PI hospital. The health of Victorians is managed by the Victorian Government according to the Australian Health Care Agreement between the Commonwealth and State of Victoria which I’ve linked. It states that the range of services provided by the PUBLIC hospitals must not be decreased, but does not cover private hospitals. The Feds and State of Vic are not obliged to take over a private hospital. I’m not saying that means they shouldn’t but they don’t have to.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/B02C99D554742175CA256F18004FC7A6/$File/victoria.pdf
Re the Phillip Island hospital saga. Buckpassing is in evidence here but a bit of lateral thinking would sort it out. There is no need for a hospital providing the services that this private hospital has been for many years. It is an old fashioned concept which has outlived its usefulness in this age of emergency helicopters etc. PI has a small population and most residents can travel the 50 klms to Wonthaggi for routine treatment. Most emergencies could be handled by locating at least two ambulances on PI and calling in a choper when required. The Commonwealth should fund one of its ‘mega medical centres’ there to provide adequate 24 hour GP and some on-call specialist services. When the big motor racing events are held there, the organisers should, and do, make their own medical emergency arrangements.
Thanks Diogenes, I was very aware of the high mortality, confirmed by the fascinated stares and glares of the constant stream of med students, registrars etc following like acolytes in the wake of the revered consultants…look at scan on the light-box, look at patient, look at scan, look at patient…
Please dont wish Napoleon on us at federal level, we have enough problems with Janie-Grrl and her baggage-train.
I understand the PI hospital is a not-for-profit? Some of those, eg church-owned ones, are contracted by state health depts to provide public hospital services, but on an individual hospital contract basis. If the contract has expired, and the state has determined that its not cost-effective then the hospital is on its own.
Its quite right that the federal govt does not generally intervene in state decisions on how and where they provide services. The whole Mersey thing, was as much an attack on state rights as it was an attempt to buy votes in a key federal seat.
federal responsibilities are primarily in funding, and national leadership in hospital funding and clinical policy, eg assistance in national roll-outs of best practice in evidence-based medicine. Its meant to be 50/50 funding split between CW and States.
The argument about CW funding, is at its simplest – based on the bigger states always say they have more population, therefore they should get more.
The CW has always weighted the calculations on *need*, eg including weightings for rural services (which cost more because of access, transport issues), high rates of aged, or disadvantaged populations (low income ghettos, Indigenous communities etc), disabled and so on. eg, SA has that distinctive statistical *peak* in Elizabeth/Gawler popping up on the maps, Tasmania loses much of its healthiest, younger population to the mainland, and so on.
But, it is true that under the Howard/Costello leadership that both funding in *real* terms, and discussions in practice were dropped in reality.
Roxon was right when she said that in the last rounds of discussions, Abbott waited until just before the agreements expired, dropped a punitive arrangement on the table to the states and said “Take it or Leave it”.
Usually the AHCAs are a forum for reforms and roll-outs in clinical practice as well as management, eg improved integration and coordination of services with community health services (home nursing, mental health, mother and baby post-natal care, with aged care services.. etc etc etc) and of course the primary care sector with GPs — all in addition to the funding bucket.
That was the big thing that was also dropped under the Howard/Costello years, and something the states have been (rightly, in my view) very concerned about.
I see people on this blog continue to give credence to Glen by responding to his verbage.
Can I start another game please.
We all hide behind the anominity of “the blog” and I don’t suppose i am the only one who tries to guess who/what lies behind the pen name of some of the players.
Can we start with Glen– I visualise this of him
About 23 years old
A failed member of THE YOUNG LIBERALS– wanted to be President of that Group but only got his own vote
Studied dentistry at Uni for 2 years but found it too exciting
Moved on to study accounting but also found Auditing raised the blood pressure and adrenalin to unacceptable levels.
Yet to have his first real date but his mother lives in hope he will leave home one day.
Has pin ups in his bedroom of Margaret Thatcher,Bronwyn Bishop,Janette Howard and Amanda Vanstone ( almost forgot Sir Robert Menzies and The Rodent)
Life member of Hillsong
Developed his expertise in the art of aerial warfare and asociated technical knowledge by reading every volume of Biggles.
Pines for the GOOD OLD DAYS
Looks under his bed every night( immediately after prayers on his knees)– looked for REDS in the GOOD OLD DAYS but now fearful of BIG BURLY UNION OFFICIALS weaing firemens braces.
Secretly wishes he had been born differently or raised by others (heredity vs environment debate) so that he could be like most ordinary people and have a heart, compassion for his fellow man and vote Labor
Gus ‘Ouch’ I reckon for some fun you could do a few of the others!!
397 Rain- The new ACHA will be a huge test of the Rudd/Roxon Government. It is their big opportunity to help fix Health and it could make or break the longevity of the Rudd train. If Rudd can improve Health significantly and visibly, he can write his own ticket on almost anything else. Health is almost always first or second in the list of important issues to voters. But if Health continues to get worse, due to aging, expense etc he could have a real problem. When he said “The buck stops with me”, the Libs would have seen a huge opportunity. I thought it was the only time in the campaign Rudd took a leap of faith into the great unknown. On climate change, Slave Choices, tax cuts, defense etc he was on very steady ground.
Refer my Gus 398
Any other contributions re Glens personna gratefully received
True Diogenes, health was number 1 on Exit Polls.
It doesn’t help that its a complex system, and not well integrated across the different sectors.
Just my view, but it would also help to do some public education on how the system works, the public expectation or “demand” needs to be managed, as well as “supply” issues.
The whole hospital ’score card’ or ‘league table’ thing bothers me, it would be hard to do it without increasing misinformation, and media scare campaigning (especially at the hands of Murdoch). They did that in the UK in the late 90s, and just escalated out of control, tabloid media scaring people with death, fire and brimstone, if you use your local hospital headlines. Just destroyed public confidence in the system, for no reason.
But for Rudd & Co, I’m quietly confident they’ll give it their best shot, surely they can’t do any worse than the previous bunch!
I must demur on the Hillsong suggestion for Glen.
He has repeatedly shown he lives in Melbourne. And Melburnians don’t generally go in for Hillsong type churches.
His comments that he lives in Port Mlebourne but was volunteering in Anna Burke’s electorate (Chisolm?) are intriguing. To me it suggests that he grew up in that electorate in the middle/outer east of Melbourne before moving in – perhaps for university. But he went back “home” to do his volunteering.
As a Melburnian the school is all-important. I suggest his debating style is reminscent of Melbourne Grammar. A strange inability to accept that not everyone approaches life from his paradigm seems very reminiscent of my experiences adjudicating Melbourne Grammar students.
Oh gus, Glen is a spoiled child with ‘attention-seeking’ issues, ignore him!
Glen at 377 says the states are rrsponsible for health.
And yet when Tony Abbott and John Howard moved to takeover Mersey Hospital he supported them in lock step.
Funny, that.
I wonder when we may know the result from McEwen is there a date where they’ll declare the seat or shall we just have to wait?
Would someone please grab a strap and take Glen behind the woodshed.
That’s because Tasmania had failed in their duties to maintain adequate health services to large communities Spiros that was what i was getting at.
glen 408: “That’s because Tasmania had failed in their duties to maintain adequate health services to large communities Spiros that was what i was getting at.”
is that why they cherry picked a hospital despite advice that its community was too small to sustain its services and that people would die in the hospital as a result? the tasmanian govt. was (belatedly) doing the right thing. one of the reasons you don’t want overlapping hospitals, like the takeover would have created, is because specialists require a critical mass of patients to maintain their skill level. all the advice says that the mersey under howard control would have *killed* patients. yet howard was willing to cause adverse outcomes to who knows how many patients to win an election. maybe the liberal party under brendan nelson should offer to take it over and run it. it’s only going for about a dollar and they could show how they can fix the health system but were prevented from doing so for 11 years.
402 Rain- I wholeheartedly agree with education of the public about expectations of Health. In Cairns last year, they did an education campaign re what to present to Emerg Departments for and when to go to GPs during the winter busy time. The local GPs supported this by leaving a few more consulting slots for Emerg cases. It worked very well and the Cairns Emerg Department survived the winter onslaught. BTW on your obesity project, SA Health has banned some types of elective surgery (eg abdominoplasty and breast reduction) on patients with a BMI greater than 30. They have a very high complication rate and stay in hospital longer than average.
And when the Tasmanian government held an independent review, led by a panel of Professors of medicine from Victoria, an opportunistic federal government tried to score cheap political points out of their rationalisation plans.
Thankfully that mob of economic dunces is now out of power.
What little respect i have for O’Donoghue has diminshed even futher – not all of the removals were “cruel” and “evil” – it’s because of m*r*ns like her that today many black children are left in abusive situations that would see a white child removed in a second.
I knew some lefties go far to trash us centre-righties but to say that a political party would be happy to kill people to win an election is low gam even for you.
The question is what will the ALP do about it?
They are in power everywhere, they can’t escape from the health systems the State governments primarily created. I dont see how all the blame is on the Howard government when the States are constitutionally responsible for Health and Howard gave the States billions in extra funding thanks to the GST. In some States they’ve had a decade to fix the health system and failed miserably (Victoria/NSW).
Clearly the Health system is a product of Federal/State relations and buckpassing though this has not changed with the election of Labor across the country. As seen by Roxons woeful response to the PI hospital.
‘The more things change the more things remain the same’