Roy Morgan’s first face-to-face poll of the Rudd era shows Labor with a predictably bloated two-party lead of 60.5-39.5. Read all about it here.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Morgan: 60.5-39.5
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561 Comments
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Glen,
It is very clear you haven’t seen the 4 Corners program on the Super Hornets.
Please take the time to have a good look at it and maybe read the transcript also.
There is no way, after taking on board what was bpresented in this program, that you would have the affrontery to present what you have been doing to us on this thread.
Please check it out and then get back to us.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2007/s2070484.htm
Cheers, Scorpio.
199
Sean
As Winston Chuchill put it, so succintly, “a fanatic is someone who won’t change their mind and won’t change the subject”.
I guess that just about sums up the opinions of Centre on this topic, and so it goes without saying that no amount of logic, or appeal to rational evaluation will change them one iota.
It is the essential nature of prejudice, it remains defiantly immune to anything but its own reflection.
Sean for the simple reason that two people of the same sex cannot have children it is impossible. IVF was not created so that single women and lesbians could have children it was as a last resort to help a heterosexual couple who physiologically could have children but are finding it difficult for one reason or another.
Just as Gays and Lesbians cannot naturally have children neither should they be allowed surrogacy or adoption (or any parenting rights either), i know they didnt choose to be homosexual but you just cannot have children like that its not natural. Just as people dont support human cloning which is not natural most people do not support homosexuals having children as this is not natural either.
I agree with Centre on this one Sean.
Sounds like a Warcraft game chatroom….
Healh & Roxon: There are other ‘hidden’ players in the public hospital waiting list debates, including diverse doctors (as one GP I know said, like ‘herding cats’, highly independent and some operate far more like ruthless cut-throat capitalists than humanitarians, and critical shortages especially in surgical specialties). No govt can solve them, money wont solve it. Made more complex in Oz by the uncapped funding of the private system.
Same-sex couples & kids: As long as they pay for it, and its a private matter, why should Medicare pay for obscenely expensive medical technology that is not for treatment of a real health issue? Same goes for much of cosmetic surgery.
Materialism gone mad, don’t care if its a boob-job, penile enlargement, sex-changes, or some complicated womb-surrogacy, IVF etc – it is not a health problem, disease or condition needing treatment, then it shouldn’t be covered under public-funded health insurance, and hence not an issue for govt. Might even release up some badly needed surgeons for *real* public health problems, like some of those on public waiting lists.
McEwen… *sniff*, *sob* – my last bet from the election still pending… no need to open up the book on the recount, I can’t be the only election bettee still waiting!
I finally gave up, I lost it…. my only loss . (nail-biter with Solomon tho’) .. beaten at the last by Fran’s whingeing!
201
Scorpio – i watched it BTW and it was just the ABC blowing its trumpet another attack on the Howard Government and simply a few ex-Air Force officers pissed off about not getting the F-22.
Glen @203, I differ _ I dont think heterosexual couples should access IVF and related tech from the public Medicare purse either. I support the original NHMRC finding that infertility, whilst tragic for those involved, is not a public health issue requiring treatment for reduction in morbidity/mortality or physical health and quality of life.
But whingeing rich folks lobbied and lobbied and lobbied, until they eventually got their cut from the Medicare pie.
Don’t have a problem with adoption either, for either group, but surrogacy is a form of prostitution. Its on the level of buying kidneys from poor people.
But still, these issues like abortion are always fraught with emotion, morals and personal value systems, and I dont know why they keep coming up as “political” issues. The only “political” issue relating to it, is if they insist on using public funds to support their lifestyles.
Rain @ 204- As a plastic surgeon, I think I need to enlighten you on what we do in the public hospital system. None of the procedures you listed are performed in public hospitals and Medicare does not cover them. No cosmetic surgery is performed in SA in public hospitals. As for the doctors who are more like “ruthless cut-throat capitalists than humanitarians”, they certainly exist but they do not work in public hospitals. I earn four times as when I work in private than in the public hospitals, as would many other specialists but choose to spend half my time in public hospitals for many obviously non-monetary reasons.
Glen,
Watch it again. Why should the technical aero warfare expertise of those gentlemen be inferior to that of those you prefer to use in your support of the SH’s.
I would like to see a proper investigation of the whole Nelson procurement process and a proper evaluation of the air warfare capability of those aircraft.
When even US experts agree with the evaluation of the experts in the 4 Corners program, then questions remain to be answered as to the appropriateness of this procurement.
But of course those people of whine about us not having the F-22 thats what they want cos its the best but Australia couldnt get it so we got something good that our pilots can easily adapt too.
Also ill bet that there were experts who were not interviewed as they’d have supported the F-18Fs, don’t you understand how documentary’s are made??? Who gets to choose who can speak on the subject who chooses the interviewees the Director/Producers do.
nuff said.
193-Glen. From the NW end of Tindal’s main runway its 140nm to the nearest point on our coast. West Timor is the nearest part of Indonesia, and that is nearly 600nm from Tindal (there are a few small, barely inhabited islands to the NE of Timor that are about 100 nm closer). Not that there’s much worth attacking. So under combat conditions plan on 4 refuels each way for your and Horatio’s beloved Hornets. A F-35 could just manage to shoot up a hut on the beach before having to turn back. OTOH, a F-111 could do that anywhere on WT, twice, without refuelling. Fitted with F-35/F-22s engines it may be able to do it 4 times while flying continuously at significantly higher speeds than the Su-30s.
Ground radars have a range not much greater than the F/A18s and you might note that they are few and far between up north – Darwin, Tindal and then a gap of nearly 700nm to the (civilian) radar at Broome (forget Wyndham). Yes, AWACs could close the gap if we had them, as can, to a lesser extent, both P-3s and the Jindalee radar in Alice or possibly one of the navy’s patrol boats if its in the right area at the right time. However, then you need to protect the AWACs/P-3s/patrol boat. So more aircraft, so more tankers, which then need protection so…….. more money.
As for our subs blowing up Indonesia oil tankers, yes, it would be inconvenient, but they are much less reliant on exports/imports than we are. And they would still have their oil, we don’t have enough to keep us going for very long, nor sufficient refining capacity. Most of our petrol comes from Singapore! If it ever comes to a war, buy every horse you can find. They’ll soon be worth their weight in gold.
Glen @ 203 -
“… two people of the same sex cannot have children it is impossible. IVF was not created so that single women and lesbians could have children it was as a last resort to help a heterosexual couple who physiologically could have children but are finding it difficult for one reason or another.
Just as Gays and Lesbians cannot naturally have children neither should they be allowed surrogacy or adoption (or any parenting rights either), i know they didnt choose to be homosexual but you just cannot have children like that its not natural. Just as people dont support human cloning which is not natural most people do not support homosexuals having children as this is not natural either.”
Glen,
1. Two people of the same sex can have children through many means, (which you yourself later mention) including adoption, surrogacy and IVF. Just because IVF was “not created so that single women and lesbians (and gays)” could have children, does not mean that it cannot be used for that purpose. Undoubtedly, the inventors of the internet did not foresee it being used for political blogs, but you use it for this purpose frequently.
2. You say, “you just cannot have children like that its not natural. Just as people dont support human cloning which is not natural”. Well, it’s not natural for people to dye their hair, but I don’t see you complaining about that. If you are arguing that gays and lesbians should not be able to parent children, you’ll have to come up with a better reason than that.
Diogenes @ 207, you are quite correct, I’m sorry if you misunderstood, I meant diverse in a very wide-range across the whole spectrum. Not exactly a homogeneous group or predictable – our doctors
For example, I worked on some coordinated care trials once, and one of the GPs, who volunteered to act as Project Medical Coordinator was constantly frustrated by having something like 12 GPs and 6 Specialists having 18 different divergent views and individual work-practice preferences, and as he said: “Trying to gain a consensus or a team-approach from doctors is like ‘herding cats’ ”
Similarly with feedback from state/territory health departments, hospital admins, Medicare Australia etc – its just one of the constraints that Health Ministers and bureacrats have to live with.
Its quite a *challenge*
negotiating something with the AMA as national ‘peak body’ only to find out 6 months later, that half their members didn’t agree with it anyway.
Glen,
I think you put forward argument for argument’s sake and not for any reason of informing, evaluating or trying to even see any possibilities that may conflict even marginally on your very narrow view of how the world operates or should operate.
Other people have rights and opinions and they have to be respected, especially as they, in many cases, have an intellectually informed basis for those opinions.
Just trying to support biggoted right wing religious views which aren’t supported by the majority of the population or trying to support knee jerk decisions by your Lib friends when they spend $6 billion of the taxpayers money on useless aircraft, may be considered admirable qualities within the Coalition camp, but are more than boring to the greater majority of the rest of us.
212 Rain- Thanks for that clarification. Actually, trying to get doctors to work together is more like herding tigers than cats. There is an enormous amount of jealousy and often hatred between different specialties, and even within specialties. I would be surprised if even 50% of AMA members agree with anything they said. Most of us don’t even belong to the AMA. I certainly sympathise with anyone trying to negotiate with doctors.
Glen @ 209
glen, you just might want to consider the true state of the alliance under Bush/Howard if the “best friend America has” is not only considered unworthy of getting their best, but can’t even buy the best of their second string, for the F-35s we’re allowed to have is the export version with minimal stealth which nearly any country with the cash can buy and not the USAF variant. I wonder how long it’ll be before the sales reps are making Gaddafi and Kim Jong Il very attractive offers.
And why is this so? Well, IME, grovelling doesn’t earn respect, only contempt.
Sorry for the “glen” typo Glen
213
Scorpio – Don’t jump to conclusions, i am not a religious man. I just dont think homosexuals should have children thats my opinion.
Sure if you want a gap in our defences sure why not spend the 6b on homeless shelters, but i for one think military spending is necessary and these planes are not useless for gods sake if they were why do the US have them as a principle fighter for the USN.
MayoFeral groveling as you put it or being a tough ally wont get us the F-22s they want it and its technology for themselves.
OH&S update.
John Howard’s “legacy” was safely wrapped in black plastic, encased in strong concrete and dumped off the heads. A monitoring program will be instigated to ensure no toxic leaching to the environment and settled areas. Thanks to the crew. Well done!
Alert! John Howard’s dog whistle has not been found.
If found, it is vital that this object be treated with extreme caution. Approved methodology if found: Plug thin end with cork from your favourite tipple, apply super glue or Araldite. Hire jack-hammer, concrete mixer and several unemployed liberals. Build a pyre. Wear protective clothing, including bio-masks. Crush the object. Burn it. Gather the ash and cast into the sea. Ensure remains sink. Break for lunch.
Thank you.
There will be a redistribution of Federal electorates in Western Australia.
see here
http://www.ag.gov.au/portal/govgazonline.nsf/F4C71BBBAE29F921CA2573B1000578A1/$file/S261.pdf
Derek Corbett, You’re a very funny bloke. Rain and Diogenes, cats, tiggers and really weird stuff is the stuff of life in what is loosely described as the health industry. Glen, you’ve accepted it intellectually, but not emotionally. Go take some time out, maybe get a little down in the mouth, go for a walk on a deserted beach, have a bit of a think, but specifically, try thinking differently. It’ll do you any amount of good.
I am not prejudice. I am certainly not a biggot. And I am definitely not religious. And it is wrong to be labelled as such because of my views.I support all advances in medical science, and technology including stem cell research.
I have absolutely nothing against gay people. I like gay people. Their sexual nature is their business. There are straight people, gay people and all types of fetish people. As long as nobody is being hurt it should be perfectly fine and acceptable.
Two people of the same sex cannot have children according to the laws of nature Do you Sean, Scorpio and Kirribilli think that it is natural for a child to grow up with a same sex couple and calling them mummy and daddy?
I would like to win the 100m and Marathon at the Olympics, but it can’t be done. I will comment no further on this topic.
Speaking of Health, here is WA’s response.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22930363-2761,00.html
Note the comments from the Doctor’s union
”If the top marginal rate was still cutting in at just above average earnings the brain drain would be a flood.” [183]
If a top marginal rate was higher today, the Government would have had more money to spend on healthcare, on roads, on desalination plants.
“Two people of the same sex cannot have children according to the laws of nature”
The laws of nature say that it is normal for a bunch of sisters to have sex with their brother and then dine on the flesh of their dead mother until they bear their chidren, as this is precisely how some animals propagate themselves. Anyone who bases their morality on an appeal to ‘nature’ is, frankly, an idiot.
“Do you Sean, Scorpio and Kirribilli think that it is natural for a child to grow up with a same sex couple and calling them mummy and daddy?”
No, obviously they would call them “mummy and mummy” or “daddy and daddy”.
Homosexual couples can have children today with insemination, surrogacy and IVF. They can’t do it with certainty and with the rights of their children and partners protected. Legal discrimination against homosexual parenting has no effect on stopping sub-optimal parenting (almost all of which is in the hands of heterosexual parents) and is mainly effective in punishing homosexuals for their sexual preference.
I must add, to my last comment, if you are going to have same sex parents, why just have the two, why not three, what the heck, why not six or ten?
Well put, Martin.
Dr Watson 221
Can they make the redistribution in Western Australia retrospective please
Thanks Martin B, I have just won the argument. You have resorted to name calling. Shades of the conservatives!
Centre 227, Sounds good! Least the kids are not going to be starved for attention! With the cost of rearing kids these days this might be a much better option!
Centre, if you care to look at the responses you’ve had on this blog, it’s pretty clear that you’ve not had any support for your original premise. In fact all the comments have basically been along the same lines, in other words “so what?”.
So, being a rational creature, you just might assume that your opinion is not widely accepted, and others actually don’t see any problems with ANY couple (of any combination) being parents in whatever manner they so choose.
In fact, the essential ingredient is the commitment to be a parent, not one’s gender or preferences. Anyone wishing to undertake this great endevour, and even against the prejudices of some people, deserve our best wishes and anything we can do to make their life easier, not harder.
Afterall, Centre, love is a many gendered thing!
“I must add, to my last comment, if you are going to have same sex parents, why just have the two, why not three, what the heck, why not six or ten?”
Why not indeed, if such arrangements can provide stable emotional and economic foundations for children? However to date the overwhelming majority of homosexual couples have found that this is not desirable or acheivable, and in fact the most noticeable examples of group marriage have been within heterosexual frameworks.
“You have resorted to name calling.”
No, I have accurately described the lifecycle of pyemotidae mites and drawn an obvious conclusion from that. If you would like to contest my facts, or xplain how the Pyemotidae lie outside the laws of nature, or furhter explicate the laws of nature then be m guest.
I could claim that I have won the argument by making you reply after you said you wouldn’t, but that would clearly be beneath me.
Enough already.
Kirriblilli, it is not so much a premise but my own particular view. But you are fair dinkum kidding if you think I’m in the minority on this in our society. Just to repeat, I am not prejudiced or religious.
Ahem.
Excellent article in the Oz today by Paul Kelly, re.Libs leadership issues back in September.Sorry, no link, it[s hidden away in the columnists page of Opinion.
Heck yeah. There’s much more
trivialimportant matters to discuss.The booth of Weipa had a 15.73% 2PP swing between 2004 and 2007 (those miners must love workchoices).
There must be higher swings? Anyone?
Martin B… The Flagstone booth in the division of Forde had a 19.9% 2PP swing. There were many booths in Forde with large swings, hence the 14.43% swing overall in the division.
Thanks – was Flagstone definitely the highest in Forde?
So I’m probably on permanent moderation – I don’t really care. Because you lot waste way too much time on fighter jets and same-sex couples. And my time is just way too valuable.
Anyway, today I listened to Mark Arbib talk on the Election campaign – he said some interesting things, although on WA he would not comment, apparently still in analysis.
One question was on the idea (a Tory misconception) that the voters would fear Labor Governments at Federal and State – he said this was never factored into Labor’s planning, and frankly they were astonished to see that bunting rolled out on Election day, because in all their research it had never come out as an issue. I find that interesting becase a buch of silly Tories campaiging at the NSW State election assured me that in that event the end of the world would be nigh!
Oh – dont worry about the air defence. I hear that brooms sticks will supplied to Bronwyn Bishop and Helen Coonan.
Yes Glen.
Liberals and Nationals should merge. Surely it would be more beneficial to their bottom line (dollar). What should the party be called? I reckon Australian or National Conservative Party.
Basil it is a big issue if one of the two major parties merge at the federal level.
Probably the way to go Centre, i mean it would save a lot of money. Plus if the Libs are struggling for cash how bad are the Nats doin’ that’s the big question???
My picks for new names…personally i dont think the Nats will agree to merge unless we change names, ideally we’d like to keep the Liberal Party name but we may have to change.
United Australia Party (yes i know they were a defunct political party of the 30s/40s but it is a sweet name nevertheless)
Conservative Party
All for Australia Party
National Coalition Party
Nationalist Party of Australia (defunct but an outside chance)
Conservative Alliance
Silly Party
Very Silly Party
Rich Mates Party
All for Greedy Business Party
United Underpants Party
Divide and Rule Party
Basil we grown ups are having a serious discussion here…
238- Martin – yeah, but would the miners have been so keen once the boom hit a brick wall, as they always do, and they realised they signed away all their rights?
The Cartel Party
Instead of ALP – Union Party or Rudd Party
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