Welcome to episode two in the slower-than-anticipated Post-Match Report round-up of federal electorate results, which today brings us to South Australia.
Of the three seats that were highly marginal for the Liberals going into the election, Kingston emerged with the smallest Labor margin following a relatively subdued 4.5 per cent swing. The swing was reasonably consistent throughout the electorate, though slightly heavier at Morphett Vale and the Liberal-voting suburbs to the north than along the coast. Makin produced the third biggest swing in the state, perhaps boosted by the retirement of sitting member Trish Draper, with the 0.9 per cent margin obliterated by an evenly distributed 8.6 per cent shift to Labor. In Wakefield the swing was 7.3 per cent, which was markedly lower than in the small towns in the north of the electorate than in the low-income outer Adelaide centres of Elizabeth and Salisbury.
Only at four of Boothby’s 42 booths did Nicole Cornes achieve a swing greater than the 5.4 per cent needed to win the seat. All were in strong Liberal areas, including the coast around Brighton and the Adelaide Hills suburb of Flagstaff Hill. Labor’s worst results came in the area closest to the city, with swings to the Liberals recorded at Mitcham, Myrtle Bank, Kingswood and Hawthorn West. The Greens’ vote picked up 3.1 per cent, perhaps benefiting from embarrassment surrounding Cornes’s performance. In Sturt the Labor candidate Mia Handshin picked up a close-but-no-cigar swing of 5.9 per cent that was concentrated in the heavily mortgaged northern end of the electorate, with swings near or above 10 per cent at Dernancourt, Gilles Plains and Windsor Gardens. Pyne now sits on an uncomfortable margin of 0.9 per cent.
The 7.2 per cent swing in Adelaide was slightly higher than the state average of 6.8 per cent, and was driven in remarkable degree by the stronger Labor areas to the north and north-west of the city. The swings in many of these booths cracked double figures, whereas the strong Liberal booths to the north-east and south-east of the city mostly came in at well under half that. Labor’s Hindmarsh MP Steve Georganas also had a much more relaxing election night this time around after prevailing by 108 votes in 2004, picking up a 5.0 per cent swing that was fairly evenly distributed throughout the electorate.
Labor’s biggest swing in South Australia was wasted in the safe Liberal rural seat of Barker, where Liberal member Patrick Secker went to preferences for the first time since 1998 after his primary vote fell from 53.2 per cent to 46.8 per cent. Labor was up 8.6 per cent on the primary vote and 10.4 per cent on two-party preferred. Swings were larger in the bigger centres than the small rural booths: all five Mount Gambier booths produced above average swings, peaking at a remarkable 21.4 per cent at Mount Gambier North. Talk of a swing in Grey big enough to endanger the Liberals was partly borne out by double-digit swings in the seat’s traditional Labor centres of Whyalla, Port August and Port Lincoln. Swings were much more gentle in the many smaller rural and remote booths, dampening the overall shift down to an insufficient but still severe 9.4 per cent.
Alexander Downer’s seat of Mayo followed the statewide trend in swinging to Labor by 6.5 per cent. Particularly heavy swings were recorded at the southern coastal towns of Victor Harbor and Goolwa. Nine years after coming within an ace of winning the seat, the Australian Democrats can now manage only 1.5 per cent. The Greens did well to increase 3.4 per cent to 11.0 per cent, partly assisted by the donkey vote. Another good seat for the Greens was Port Adelaide, where they picked up 3.3 per cent and boosted Labor from a 3.7 per cent increase on the primary vote to 6.8 per cent on two-party preferred. Remarkably, all but one of the 10 booths in Paralowie, Salisbury and Parafield to the east of Port Wakefield Road produced a double digit swing, a trend which carried over into neighbouring Makin. Swings in booths further west varied around the 4 per cent mark.
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Hmmm. Might be time to change banks
This was how the Age saw it in August 2006. I don’t remember seeing this story at the time myself for some obscure reason.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/costello-mate-appointed-wife-to-anz-job/2006/08/03/1154198268236.html
Former WA Liberal Premier Sir Charles Court died at the grand old age of 96.
And ironically, today marks the opening of the Perth to Mandurah rail line, the iroiny of it is that Sir Charles in 1979 closed the Fremantle line for 3 years and was going to convert the train line into Bus lanes.
The line was re-opened in 1983 by Brian Burke.
Loving the Ruddster. Another day, another Howard legacy demolished. Iraq withdrawal confirmed with troops. He’s really rattling through them. Its almost like John Whathisname never was!
And on whaling, he’s really demonstrated what a bunch of pussies the Libs really were, despite all their posturing.
The Libs were into Manichean and simplistic world views – good guys v bad guys on foreign affairs – they worried about who was talking, not what was being said, or done.
Good to see an independent line taken on an ‘ally’ – who happens to be committing gross outrages on our turf.
Peter Martin a month ago had this intriguing piece about how Costello dealt with the Democrats.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2007/11/peter-costello-at-close-quarters.html
Lefty E, 204, it’s also refreshing to see footage of Ruddster engaging with troops, politicians and sundry others and looking like the international citizen little johnny could never be (those cringe-making sequences where he tried to make smalltalk with the ‘foreigners).
TPS, a regular commenter here has done his ‘Best of 2007′ post. It is always good value.
http://thepipingshrike.blogspot.com/2007/12/best-of-australian-politics-2007.html
Happy Christmas bloggers!!!
None of you lefties deserve any presents this Christmas, according to your own lights, you already have the best present possible – Rudd as PM – at Christmas time too!!!
I saw the footage of Kevin Rudd in Iraq and couldn’t help but ask two questions:
One- how tall is he? is it my imagination, or is he taller than he was when he was opposition leader?
Two – has Kevin actually explained why he supports the war in Afghansitan but not in Iraq? or is the ALP media machine skillfully steering the media away from analysing that obvious double standard……
Mr Squiggle, thanks for more proof (if any were needed) that, even at Christmas time, Tories make the WORST losers, must be that born to rule mentality…
On Afghanistan, Mr Rudd has explained this many times so I wont bother again, just cast your mind back to the reasons for the respective wars…
PS Im especialy loving Howard’s occasional media leaks to the effect that “he isnt bitter and twisted like some former PMs!”.
Look at him hitting a feckin golf ball. What more proof could be needed!
Then a few days later, another leak to the effect that “he isnt bitter and twisted like some former PMs”.
I imagine the leaks will stop when he realises no one cares either way. Then the bitter twistedness will really set in
-Agree that a discussion about this topic should be interesting. I think there has been discussion on other blogs about this, but this group would be a good one to tear it to bits. Proportional representation in the reps is my preference, for the reason given below.
-Kiwi, your comparative analysis is intriguing. What a breath of fresh air to have that coalition in the Reps.
Doesn’t look like the Libs will be in power in Vic for a while
VOTERS have endorsed the handover of power in Victoria, with the John Brumby-led Government opening up a record margin and improving sharply on Labor’s performance at last year’s state election.
The latest Newspoll, conducted exclusively for The Australian, has Labor garnering 60per cent of the vote after preferences, with the Ted Baillieu-led Opposition floundering on 40 per cent.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22968124-601,00.html
With the demise of the federal Liberals and the hopelessness of their state counterparts and not to mention the total collapse of the Democrats…is there room now for a new political force to emerge out of this mess to give the people an option for the next election???
We need strength in opposition to ensure that the government doesn’t overstep their mandate.
Kiwipundit at 182
Just two words “Winston Peters”
Just a quick note to say Merry Christmas and to wish everybody the best Kevins for the New Year. Cheers for the entertaining and deeply informative read over the past few months: yez are all tops.
A few of us get together to do a two-week long pub theatre revue every year here in Launnie – and we had wealth of riches to play with for this year’s number… While not nearly on a par with seajay’s effort at 157(?), thought I’d dish this one up:
—-
“And now, a special Christmas treat from our special guests… the Liberal Party Choir of Hard Knocks…
The first we knew the swing was on
Was when John looked bad in Bennelong.
He couldn’t fend off Maxine McKew-ya.
Seats fell like this on that Saturday night
Braddon then Bass then Corangamite*
And Queensland delivered the Ruddslide to ya.
Kev & Julia
Kev & Julia
Kev & Julia
Kev & Julia
Our borders were strong but you needed proof
So we intervened in Aboriginal youth.
We choiced ya work and really tried to screw ya
(without you noticing)
But Abbott was late and we were liars
Who came unstuck with Muslim fliers
And interest rates – but still we thought that we wa
Born to rule ya
Born to rule ya
Born to rule ya
Kev & Julia
—-
*aware that Corangamite didn’t fall on that Saturday night… but, hell, it rhymed quite nicely…
Anyway all, Merry Christmas again, and please forgive the indulgence!
213 [We need strength in opposition to ensure that the government doesn’t overstep their mandate.]
It’s just a matter of wait a decade and a half and your wish might be granted. The flaw is that the Liberals handle Government poorly and opposition more poorly.
Hi Andrew,
Ha! >>> Happy Christmas anyway.
Regarding the ALP’s double standard over Afghanistan vs Iraq, I honestly haven’t heard anything substantial regarding the ALP philosophy.
Being a good analyst, I went looking at the ALP website.
The ALP home page has links to over 60 press releases on issues the ALP is concerned about – none of them are in relation to Iraq or Afghanistan.
Clearly, their feeling is that their policy won’t bear close scrutiny
Eventually, I found “Labor’s Plan for Defense”. It says the following on Iraq and Afghanistan:
“Iraq has diverted Australia’s defence resources away from the military action against Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the prevention of terrorism in our neighbourhood”.
Basically, the ALP is saying there is nothing wrong with the war in Iraq, we just haven’t got enough combat troops to maintain our committment there.
Is that it? Its OK to have diggers in Kabul but not in Baghdad?
Who could be satisfied with a double standard like that
GREAT news in Vic, my home state, with Brumby Labor having a 51-34 primary vote and 60-40 2PP advantage. Looks like the transition to Brumby has worked very well so far for Vic Labor. Victoria, the jewel in the Labor crown.
217 [Who could be satisfied with a double standard like that]
Sounds like a bit of a leading question, Squiqqle. Right up there with,” have you stopped beating your wife?”
A leading Question explained.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_question
Steve,
I’ve been unlucky in love, so I thought I’d swing a few at the ALP
Kevin Rein’s doing a geat job at the moment, kicking goals from all positions on the ground
Except on this point….why-oh-why does he support troops in Afghanistan but not in Iraq?
I can’t see a way to make it make sense
On the NSW meningitis case, if the reports are true, I’m going out on a limb and saying something I never do.
The doctors are at fault, NOT the administrators! This little boy presented with textbook symptoms of meningitis. Headache, neck pain, fever and vomiting. To just check his blood count and say the white cell count is normal so he doesnt have meningitis is a huge error. In overwhelming infections, the white cell count is often normal or may even be low. And the moron CEO has now twice stuffed up in his comments (so I can still bag an administrator).
1. The tests were not for a virus, they were for bacterial meningitis.
2. To argue that it is impractical to perform a lumbar puncture on everyone with meningitis symptoms is farcical. There is an index of suspicion and when the symptoms are close enough, you do a lumbar puncture.
This is a tragic event and I feel terrible for the family.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22967810-5006009,00.html
“The conditions just aren’t there for a change of government” (Lord Dolly Downer, August 2007…and September…and October…oh and a couple of times in April and May too).
Precious, precious memories….Merry Christmas All!
The Afghanistan action was sanctioned by the UN I believe.
The Iraq invasion went against the wishes of the UN and can be construed as an illegal action that opens up the question of a crime that was committed by the CoW.
I would personally like to see a combat troops withdrawal there in the future and more focus on rebuilding and training.
216…What do you think will be the position of a party that rules for this long period?
Have we learnt nothing from the tenure of the last government, or do you honestly believe that Labor are not capable of repeating the same behaviour?
Well, Squiggle I can’t help you on either point as I am not a counselor and don’t write policy for the ALP or anybody else. My only claim to fame is being here and watching events fold and unfold. In this world there are many things that don’t make sense.
Ok steve…happy Christmas
Do I detect the cloak of neutrality?
Happy Christmas bludgers, and a Kevinly New Year. Steve – wondered what that noise was floating down from Launnie. Good work mate.
Absolutely Diogenes.
It seems that the media assumes that the NSW Government is at fault for any problems that its servants create – not just in Medicine but in all fields of government endeavour. The opposition gets a free kick every time a clinical problem is reported.
Just a few years ago it would have been the Cas resident who was named and blamed, like the yellow man in ‘House of God’ this resulted in quite a few careers and lives being ruined- I am not sure how this change has occurred, but at least the Government has broader shoulders.
Of course sensible reporting and discussion of the nature of meningitis including the difficulty of making an early diagnosis and the deadly course of the disease is unlikely to appear in the press soon.
As the Presedential candidates in the US say: Happy Holidays. In Australia, there will only be two stories next year – the (very) tough budget, and Brendan Nelson. The first will last a week, the second will run for months and months. Nelson will survive 08, but not 09 as speculation will mount about an early Rudd election. Nelson’s poll numbers will be Crean-like – and the Libs will act. That’s what will keep this site relevant and interesting.
221
Squiggy, there’s a world of difference between both the intentions and the outcomes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Firstly, Afghanistan, as has just been pointed out, was invaded to rout al Qaeda and the Taliban who refused to hand them over, and this exercise had UN approval as a direct consequence of 9/11. Iraq on the other hand had no UN approval, in fact they had weapons inspectors who virtually knew that Bush’s ‘evidence’ of WMD was rubbish and were about to prove it, except GWB pre-empted them. The rest is, as they say, history.
Occupying Iraq IS the problem. There is no way that Sunni Baathists would truck with Wahhabist fundamentalists unless it was to oust a common enemy, and even that nexus has been broken because al Qaeda people where drawn from crims and mafia gangs who had no ethics and tried standover tactics on the al Anbar Sunni tribes. This pushed the western Sunnis to seek US help to move the thugs out and gave them grounds to ask for arms and training. (Just watch this come back to bite everyone on the bum when the Yanks pull out). In other words, the slow fuse is burning in Iraq unless the political situation can defuse it. There is NO military solution to the sectarian and ethnic conflicts.
Afghanistan, on the other hand, was al Qaeda central, and now it’s moved back one station to al Qaeda Redfern (to use a Sydney analogy). Pakistan is the putative centre of bin Laden’s mob, but they can move over the tribal zones of Pakistan into Afghanistan readily. Pakistan is a HUGE problem, is armed with nukes, has an unstable government with some very rabid fundamentalists partly allied with the secret services; indeed, a heady and toxic cocktail.
Leaving Iraq militarily, which is what all the major players want to do, and the Brits are well on the way to doing, will have serious geopolitical implications, but they do not entail nukes, nor a significant resurgence of radical Jihadism. It will be some kind of Balkan’s condition, probably requiring blue helmets for a decade plus, but it will not be nearly as dangerous as letting Afghanistan become home turf for the jihadi nutters.
So, there is a great geopolitical difference, and more importantly for Australia, Afghanistan is connected via groups like JI and the radical groups in Malaysia and the Phillipines, to our direct region. The Bali bombers were, via the likes of Hambali, in a direct line to bin Laden’s Afghan operations.
It is in OUR interests, to make a stand in Afghanistan, and, I would argue, it’s also in our interests to move out of military operations in southern Iraq. You may like to debate me on that point, or have an opposing opinion, but I suspect you may come to the same conclusions if you were armed with the facts.
Merry Xmas
PS Note I did not mention Iran, not because it isn’t a very big regional player, but because almost all of what you read in the local press is mostly unmitigated rubbish and disinformation promulgated from Washington’s neocon rump. Condi Rice has at least managed to have Cheney muzzled for now, and hopefully will keep him restrained until this appalling administration limps off into history.
228 Midnorthcoast- I remember spending three years in Emergency seeing children and being petrified of sending home a kid with meningitis. It is one of those diagnoses that are very difficult. The symptoms are vague and common (headache, fever, vomiting) and the signs are almost impossible to reliably detect (try getting a sick kid to demonstrate stiff neck and photophobia). And it is incredibly deadly and rapid. With a disease like that, you need a simple investigation to help you but in meningitis the only useful one is a lumbar puncture, which is very invasive and not undertaken lightly.
There are some diseases that medical thought patterns (ie pattern recognition, sensitive investigations, and looking for common things) don’t work well for and meningitis is one of them. It is more a failing of medical thinking than the individual doctors, but in retrospect, it looks pretty grim.
229
alpal
As you say, Happy Holidays! And Merry Christmas to all ya Pollbludgers and a very special thankyou to William.
It’s quite an amazing process in the US, eh? Watching the candidates of both sides I get the impression that there’s a real mood for radical change in the US of A. Is it a long bow to draw to suggest that we’ve just had our ride of that wave and it’s now powering its way over the Pacific and is about to crash on their shores?
Our systems are markedly different, but there’s more than a vague similarity between the way the conservatives have been behaving in government, a kind of authoritarian disregard for democratic norms and a corrosive abuse by the executive of all the arms of government. Even here, the way Howard took us to Iraq, stood over bureaucrats and even the ADF in chillin’ overboard, smacks of government gone wrong, and power out of control.
It’s the same, but magnified immensely in the US, and the way the ‘fresh’ candidates, those without political barnacles, like Obama and Huckerbee are coming up the outside in the presidential race says something about people’s desire to get the ugly powerbrokers out and start afresh.
(Disclaimer: I’ve got money riding on Obama and Huckerbee, and also McCain at VERY good odds. I do not necessarily endorse any political positions of them, but do rather like Obama. McCain is a very outside position if Huckers can’t appeal to the toughnut Repblicans who also won’t be able to stomach Romney or get the numbers from the religious right for Rudy).
In a way, Rudd was our fresh start, in a way that Beazley could never have been. Anyone trying to out Bush George on ‘toughness’ is almost certain to fail to become President because the fear and loathing is just wearing off, it’s had its day, and the people are tired of being herded with the 9/11 cattle prod. (That should see Guiliani out of the race for one, and Romney for another.)
Peter Hartcher did a good piece on this in the SMH this weekend, how the conservatives are retreating in the West, they’ve had their run, they’ve exhausted themselves and are fracturing into various compenent parts.
Whilst the great Satan of Joe Stalin’s regime still had a collective name, it was the anti-god/capitalist/democracy force that conservatives saw as their nemisis. But that’s all gone, and the jihadis are too decentralised to take their place. There’s only so many times you can invoke a lucky strike by 19 young men and three airliners, (although Rudy still hasn’t found that limit yet!).
As for distorting executive power, and crowning oneself Emperor, the Yanks have had a gutfull of it, and they seriously want their democracy back, and my guess is that they won’t be in a hurry to hand power to anyone who is tainted with an air of absolutism or has been corrupted by doing deals with it (that knocks out Hilary).
It’s impossible to guess how it will go, their politics is vicious and even more incredibly corrupted by big money than we can imagine, but somehow I get the feeling there will be tectonic changes with a Democrat controlled congress and President, and we sure as hell need them!
KR at 221
That’s good analysis, you’ve obviously got a deeper understanding of the complexity of the issue than I do..
I am going to pay more attention in the future, because, like you I think this horrible mess in Iraq will last for decades.
Also, I agree the case for war in Iraq was humiliatingly botched..
However, if we needed to quickly sum up the ALP reason for pulling out, would it be fair to characterise it as:
“its just too hard in Iraq” and
“we can have a better impact by focusing on Afghansitan”
???????
If so, I wish the ALP would just say so
233 Squiggy, no, it’s not about being ‘too hard’, it’s about how effective we can be and what’s a real priority. Notice that Rudd is not talking about removing training for the Iraqi forces, but removing our relatively small operational contingent.
We can get much better value utilising them in Afghanistan where we can ‘make a difference’, rather than in southern Iraq where we have much less military impact. It’s a complex issue, but personally I think it is a sound decision, it withdraws us from being seen as Bush’s pet ally, does very little harm, and re-deploys the grunt force into a region nearer to our own interests.
It also reverses Howard’s lame excuse for keeping us there, ie the sky will not fall in and the ‘terra-wrists’ will not have ‘won’, or any other meaningless mantra that was first scripted for George Bush by his neocon nutters.
Kirribilli at 230
Nice – succinct and straight shooting. But I feel Mr Squiggle’s position is dictated by trying to salvage something, anything, to ease the recently inflicted wounds rather than a greater understanding of the issues.
He has tried to frame the discussion as Rudd being desultory. Iraq/Afganistan was incidental – clearly a case of looking for an issue to attack Labor (a poor choice, really).
I see no contradiction between supporting troops in Afghanistan and not in support of them being in Iraq.
Afghanistan was packed by the UN, after the Taliban Government chose to house Osama who funded the murder of over 3,000 people
Do I need to remind you that America was attacked without provocation and in clear breech of International Law.
Al Qaeda have on many occasions blatantly broken International Law with their attacks on People who are clearly not involved in the Military.
Iraq “the War for many reasons” is a different story for the simple reason there was no connection between Iraq and any act of aggression towards the U.S
The War in Iraq was on one hand very legal, but was the wrong war to be fighting at that time, we should have focused on Afghanistan.
Osama has also funded the Murder of many other civilians around the globe
235…I didn’t read Mr Squiggle’s position as such.
This is a very complex issue and I applaud Rudd’s strategy of distancing us from the US by opening up direct dialogue with the Iraqi leadership.
Like it or not, due to the actions of the last government we have been put in the position of having to stay for the long run…but on our terms.
Re; Afghanistan…I would be talking to NATO next and pressuring them to contribute by actually getting out there in the heat of battle rather than sitting back in the safe zones and expecting us to shed the blood.
Just because our forces are regarded as the best warriors in the word does not justify their cowardly inaction.
KR, I backed Obama before he even knew he was running for President. (although he probably had a vague idea). It was two days after his 2004 speech at the Kerry DNC convention. I got staggeringly good odds. Obama will win Iowa on Jan 3 and New Hampshire five days later. That, in my view, will propell him to the forefront – he will be then very hard to beat, even though the Clinton machine is the most formidable seen in the US in living memory. (and she’s way ahead in Florida and California and New York which deliver a large number of delegates).Huckabee will probably win the early Primaries – but I think McCain will prevail. He crosses the partisan divide – Huckabee embodies it! It will therefore be a run-off between Obama and McCain. I’m wishing an Obama win – not for the money, but because he really does represent hope and change.The Rodent will not be amused. After all,an Obama win was going to be a victory for the terrorists!!
BMW…How did you fare with that dismissal?
Got into a better situation?
Re: Iraq/Afghanistan
As a mere observer ,I have a problem with the whole over-reaction from the US-what if Britain had taken the same approach to Ireland when the IRA bombed London?
The whole strategy of major bombing rather than using the forensic skills of say a Mossad(who would have found Osama et al in no time), has me questioning the motive.
What has further troubled me all these years is why, when all aircraft were grounded after the twin towers attack, the aircraft of the Osama family(close friends of the Bush family) was one of 6 aircraft given permission to fly.(Craig Unger’s book ” House of Bush;House of Saud…” 2004)
And then I read this more recent update which poses further questions:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062207A.shtml
Or indeed the comparison with the attitude of the Irish government and people to the outrages in Dublin and Monaghan perpetrated by agents of HMG in 1974. It should be noted that, although such comparisons are odious, the loss of lives in that case was greater on a per capita basis than the 9/11 toll.
Wrong. The case for war was not botched. There was no case to botch.
And the best way of ensuring it doesn’t happen again is to bring to justice the oil addicted warmongers who started it, including the Howard cabinet and the 2003 ADF commanders.
Bryce at 235
I don’t mean to be desultory on this issue, but I am going to suggest the ALP’s message is being deliberately vague…
Kirribilli Removals is right, the issue of occupation of Iraq needs to be separated from the reasons for invading.
The lack of clarity in ALP policy on this issue intentionally allows room for ALP supporters who believe we should pull out of Iraq because, and only because, (in thier view) we shoud never have gone in.
I’m seeing this move by the ALP as an evolution of the Australian contribution, something both sides of politics will be prepared to accept and work with in the future,
MayoFeral…That was a bit harsh, but I can’t disagree at all.
If we are to get serious as a global community, justice has to be delivered, regardless of who the perpetrators might be.
235
bryce
thanks for the background, I guess I haven’t been following the plot in great detail. Still, it’s probably best to refute the quibbles with some detail and hopefully stop them in their tracks.
Seasons Greetings
Ok Mayo,
I guess you are right, Iraq was just an arcadia where women and children could sleep peacefully at night
A picture post card on the wall at Amnesty International’s head office
And after all, didn’t that nice mr Saddam make the trains run on time??
No case for war at all
there there….yess, go back to sleep, hussh
239
alpal
Well done getting on Obama that early! If only I’d been paying attention to the possibilities of wagering on such things then!
As for McCain, he has one very serious drawback if we frame the mindset in ‘fresh face’ mode. All of the polls, the one that tells against him is what people would not vote for in a president, and over 70 yrs old is the standout performer. I know it’s rough, but he’s probably missed his chance. Still, I sure don’t mind if he gets up though!
Huckers is really a weird one, and although the ‘he don’t know nuthin’ ’bout nothin’ important’ stuff seems like a serious impediment, just remember what GWB looked like first time around! My god, they don’t half mind running seriously impaired characters so long as their faces fit.
It’s sure as hell going to be interesting, but the Democrats will surely know that they can’t get another Clinton into the Whitehouse, at least not the Oval Office, and would be much better running Obama.
Season’s greetings, and yes, Happy Holiday (that’s soooooo ‘cornball’ isn’t it? Only the Yanks can do such bland things to the English language and not realise how plastic it sounds)
MayoFeral- I agree, except I think we need to direct blame at the proper source, which is Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeldt etc. The Rodent just went along to support them, with Labor’s backing, as Australia always does when an ally goes to war (often with little reason). The US is the problem here.
1. There were no WMD
2. Iraq was mostly harmless on a world stage
3. Saddam hated Osama bin Laden and had nothing to do with al Qaeda
4. Saddam was an awful dictator but there have been many dictators as bad who the US did not go to war with, often because they installed the client-dictator.
247
Mr Squiggle
If you’re going to trot out that old cannard that whatever was done to the Iraqi people was jusified because Saddam was such a tyrant, you’d better make sure it does not blow up in your face. By that yardstick we would have invaded: Sudan, Burma, Zimbabwe and a few Central Asian hell holes by now.
Sorry, but that argument is an insult to anyone with an IQ above double digits and kind of scrapes the bottom of the barrell in my opinion. But don’t take my opinion, read many, even from Shiites who detested Saddam, who grieved for the mess we made of their country and the civil war it unleashed, and who even stated that they were much better off with one Saddam, and not the thousands that we let bloom.
Better leave this topic alone if that’s all you are capable of bringing to the discussion.
Season’s Greeting’s and lots of Kevinly New Years to you and yours!
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