Been a bit busy lately, so it’s past time for a new US elections thread. Since Super Tuesday we’ve had an anticipated string of Barack Obama victories from caucuses in Nebraska, Washington and Maine and a primary in Louisiana, along with a narrow win for John McCain in Washington and probably meaningless victories for Mike Huckabee in Kansas and Louisiana. Tomorrow US time we have both parties holding primaries in Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
US primaries open thread
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Oh, and I’ve just reread that ‘Towards Reconciliation’ speech, so, unless you wish to give me a good laugh (which is always appreciated), please don’t bother going down that road…
No but neither Government apologised Wayaway.
Glen,
Watch Parliament tomorrow. Remember, they will be apolgising for you too. Doesn’t that make you feel all warm and fuzzy.
Glen, does this sound like something that could possibly have been performed under the auspices of your side of politics?
I, MICHAEL LAVARCH, Attorney-General of Australia, HAVING REGARD TO the Australian Government’s human rights, social justice and access and equity policies in pursuance of section 11(1)(e), (j), and (k) of the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission Act 1986, HEREBY REVOKE THE REQUEST MADE ON 11 MAY 1995 AND NOW REQUEST the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission to inquire into and report on the following matters:
To:
(a) trace the past laws, practices and policies which resulted in the separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families by compulsion, duress or undue influence, and the effects of those laws, practices and policies;
(b) examine the adequacy of and the need for any changes in current laws, practices and policies relating to services and procedures currently available to those Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who were affected by the separation under compulsion, duress or undue influence of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, including but not limited to current laws, practices and policies relating to access to individual and family records and to other forms of assistance towards locating and reunifying families;
(c) examine the principles relevant to determining the justification for compensation for persons or communities affected by such separations;
(d) examine current laws, practices and policies with respect to the placement and care of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children and advise on any changes required taking into account the principle of self-determination by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
IN PERFORMING its functions in relation to the reference, the Commission is to consult widely among the Australian community, in particular with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, with relevant non-government organisations and with relevant Federal, State and Territory authorities and if appropriate may consider and report on the relevant laws, practices and policies of any other country.
THE COMMISSION IS REQUIRED to report no later than December 1996.
Dated 2 August 1995
MICHAEL LAVARCH
Can’t effing believe it! Rudd, Gillard and company are on the RHS of the Speaker. Go you good thing.
Rain
I give your posts very little merit.
The reason being, you use highly emotive arguments and do not back up your arguments with facts.
What exactly are these ‘dirty tactics’ Obama is using?
Your analysis appears biased unless you provide substantiation to your posts.
We are not privy to your so-called insider Democrats, so humour us.
The apology, if nothing else, is revealing much about the raucous aristarchs.
The tactic of bogging the discussion down in deceptive minutiae (it wasn’t a generation – we were doing them a favour – the children were being abused – some have had careers which could never have happened otherwise – they were saved…) is a well known political tactic when a position which can’t possibly be supported, by argument or morality, is defended. And even here, at this late stage, it is still happening.
Get this, you lot – the children were taken away because of their colour. THEIR COLOUR. Nothing else.
No prizes for guessing which word beginning with R would best describe these sophists.
I’ve had a good look (obviously not exhaustive though) for evidence of Obama dirty tricks. The “evidence” falls into three categories.
1. Billary getting upset when Obama’s team points out her odious tactics. Evidently you can’t do that to her.
2. Stuff coming from nutjob anti-female Billary haters who have nothing to do with Obama or his team.
3. A very serious allegation that Obama encouraged Barbra Streisand to endorse Billary. Now this one would be absolutely despicable if true. I can think of no lower act than to stick Babs’ endorsement on a candidate but it’s denied by Obama’s team as follows:
Barack Obama supporters say that he’s just not capable of such tactics.
“Senator Obama had nothing to do with Barbra Streisand’s endorsement of Hillary Clinton. He didn’t talk her into it,” said campaign advisor Ed Senheis. “Admittedly, it’s a tough blow to take and it couldn’t happen to a nicer person, but it didn’t come from this organization. To suggest it did is simply more misdirection by the Clinton Machine… more politics as usual.”
Oh Dear, wavering Superdelegates and donors.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/11/some-top-clinton-backers-_n_86028.html
Obama interview
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8457.html
Clinton interview
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8453.html
Good reads to give you an insight into the personality of the candidates.
Jen @ 186 – depends how its worded, and how its taken in or out of context, and we all have our own biases in how we perceive the messages, whats important, and what is a non-issue. Most of what I’ve been reading the last few days, has been from internal Democratic Party sources mostly.
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He’s in there to win, by fair means or foul, just nobody is reporting the foul means, under the radar, wouldn’t go with the “image”, and nobody will believe it anyway now so many neo-cons have come out to support him as their Republican “darling”. Election by media, his foul means are ignored, her foul means are beat up out of proportion, her fair means are ignored or trashed by media spin.
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But just some examples, which may be non-issues to most supporters, but they go against my personal ethics, Its like the Worm during the Howard debates, my own is going down as time goes on. eg his dealings with the Nevada MSM prior to its caucus to spin-doctor Bill Clinton and Terrys visit to Vegas, his publicly laughing along with the Shuster incident, along with his wife Michelle over the Chelsea interview, the “claws” and “tea-party” comments, (which are gaining momentum along with his campaign, when you’re on a good thing, stick to it?) his public put-downs of LGBT groups joking about HIV/AIDS, (I thought Dems were supposed to care about civil rights for minorities?) and strangely — so many, many of the neo-cons suddenly finding him their Republican “darling”, stacking opens with Independents a kind of branch-stacking, along with hundreds of reports of bullying at open caucuses (which some states Dem Partys are taking consideration of as breaches of caucus rules in some precincts, but my impression from their comments is that it will be unlikely to go anywhere).
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Some of the colurful rhetoric has been quite witty though, such as the Dem contest being reduced to the level of reality-TV subtle back-stabbing ‘Survivor’ Rules.
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Then there’s the ugly mailers Obamas campaigners sent out, scare-mongering about Hilary’s health care plan policy. this must be what he meant by the “politics of hope.” Obama’s on the same old scare-mongering lies and attack politics?
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He’s said he doesn’t know which Clinton he’s running against, Ha-Ha, joke, joke -even though his own wife campaigns for him without causing him to wonder who’s going to be President if he wins – Duh. I haven’t heard him apologize. He hasn’t quietly stopped the behavior without apologizing. Clinton did and has stopped. He hasn’t even made vague “mistakes were made” noises. Clintons have and stopped weeks ago. Obama is escalating it for all its worth, with continuing the Shuster and Chelsea attacks. Nor does he feel it’s important to be sure his own supporters respect everyone’s civil rights, with the increasing reports of bullying tactics.
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Obama has back-tracked and double-dealt on issues, just as much as any other pollie. Like promising the coal industry subsidies for liquefied coal fuel. If that sounds like something Bush would do, it is. Then when so many industry reps and Republicans started falling all over him, he had to back-track and compromise, but not by much.
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Iraq. This is a biggie. Clinton had been a major disappointment. But then *everybody* had been major disappointments. She was very far from alone. But Obama pointed out that he’d always been strong against the war, and that definitely spoke volumes to the masses …. Except that he didn’t. Once he was actually in Congress and in a position to act on his words, he didn’t. He sat on the back benches and played it safe. And then he used one vote out of dozens to pretend that there was some huge difference between him and Clinton (and most of the rest of the Democrat Party I might add). This is getting into truth-shading territory, and switches my ethics meters.
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He plays the same political games as the rest. It is not change, it is not hope, it is just plain simple opportunism, he has a good hand and he’s playing it.
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I know it has been said before, but how good is it to see Labor on the Government benches, and the poor old Keystone Kops party led by Horatio and Madame Lash, looking very irrelevant and forlorn.
Hi rain
keep up those posts.I like your insights and unlike others you dont waste bandwidth with nut job ramblings.
As I suspected Rain.
Your post at 211 was a mishmash of half truths, conspiracy theories and poor formatting.
Its hardly worthwhile rebutting your posts in that format.
Suffice to say briefly:
1. I’m not going to rebut propaganda with no links to any substantive source.
2. Independents and Republicans liking Obama is not a dirty tactic.
3. Jokes aren’t a dirty tactic.
4. I refer you to the interviews posted above, and let you again judge which candidate specialises in personal attacks and which was more gracious.
5. I haven’t heard about the false mailouts from Obama, but I have heard about the false mailouts by Hillary regarding Obama’s stance on abortion.
6. Obama is not MSNBC.
7. Iraq – Obama opposed it before the invasion, Hillary didn’t. Obama supported continued funding the troops whilst in Iraq already – that is not a contradiction.
It does appear that your posts are the ones that are biased, as opposed to the mass media.
Here is the link to point 5 above
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20080105/clinton-obama-abortion/
Rain-I find that Ben Smith, who is definitely MSM, is quite pro-Billary, much to the disgust of many of the bloggers at his site.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/
And on Ramos-Horta, more surgery on the right lung gunshot. I hope they can do a lobectomy or pneumonectomy in Darwin.
And Dolly blames Ramos-Horta for getting himself shot;
Dr Ramos Horta later waived an arrest warrant for Reinado, deciding instead to seek peaceful negotiations with the rebel leader.
Former foreign minister Alexander Downer questioned that tactic. “I’ve always thought that Major Reinado was a pretty dangerous person, very unstable,” he told the ABC.
Is the Huckster about to throw a curve-ball into the McCain Virginia chances. Anybody know what the current odds are?
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=4b5bca0f-bbc7-4c45-9f5c-66e668c18b76
Rain @ 211 – [Most of what I’ve been reading the last few days, has been from internal Democratic Party sources mostly.]
Reading some your posts lately – are you related to the Clintons or their campaign? When you first started posting about this you appeared uncommitted either way, but lately you have really nailed your colours to the mast. I’m just wondering – do you have some hidden political agenda? Why otherwise post unsubstantiated scuttlebutt? It can’t be in the interests of balance.
RCP average polls for 12/2
Virginia 55/37
Maryland 55/32
DC No polls
We hear a lot of rhetoric about Obama needing to win a big state. News flash!!! These three states together seat more delegates than Texas, Ohio or Pennsylvania. It’s simple arithmetic. A few moderate states adds up to a big one.
It looks like another 15%+ stomping for Clinton tomorrow (again).
Your own Leaders for whatever their reasons Glen WILL vote for the apology
The issue has been decided even by your own party….time to move on
JV @ 218, I think Rain is just having a bit of fun with us, while making a point about some of the attacks which Obama supporters are making on Hillary. It all just goes to prove the point about what a polarising figure she is IMHO.
“It’s simple arithmetic”
Clearly it is not for the Clinton strategists.
They advised Hillary to organize & run the big States , thinking the Nominee was in the bag.
Not sure if that is poor numeracy , poor politics or arrogance ….or all 3
Irrespective by end of month ,
even Hillarys mathematicans cad add up 37 States & find fatally she has one 10
What I find rather ironic is that Hillary Clinton claim she can better weather the attacks against her from the Republican machine, yet has consistently complained against so called media bias and criticism by fellow democrats throughout the democratic primaries.
Newsflash Hillary, it doesn’t get any easier from here.
#211 – Rain, Rain, don’t go away. Nominating Obama by the Dems to me is like snatching defeat from the jaw of victory. They are not yet ready to elect a Black President. The conservatives, such as the Faknews, are cheering for Obama, that should tell you something.
So far, Obama has had a dream run. He has not been put under any pressure at all. Just wait when they put the blow-torch on him. He will melt. Whereas, Hillary has been through and still standing.
Delegates to win
DC 2/12 P 15
Maryland 2/12 P 70
Virginia 2/12 P 83
Ohio 3/4 P 141
Texas 3/4 P 193
Penn. 4/22 P 158
TurningWorm @ 221 – A bit of fun? Maybe, but if Rain would just work some more on the delivery, and also the material, and the length, then there might be more laughs!
I’m sure it’s not you Rain, but I sometimes have an image of young diehard apparatchiks from the various candidates’ teams sitting in the bowels of a rented campaign building in a US city trawling the political net blogs and answering the critics, (even on Aussie blogs) seeing they can be read anywhere and are gaining in influence. Is that a bit paranoid? I’ll take another pill.
Yes JV, time for meds I think, and put on the alfoil hat as well, you just never know
The Finnigans at 224
I suggest you read this article
“Is Obama tough enough?”
http://nymag.com/news/politics/powergrid/43882/
Also bear in mind the Democrats are thrashing the Republicans in numbers that have turned up to the primaries. And Obama is current hot favourite for Presidency.
And from Obama himself:
I hope this debunks all your future arguments.
Another poll is up on the Virginia race (and remember this one is the one Hillary needs to do well in to head of the upstart). SurveyUSA is projecting a 60/38 split in Virginia for Obama.
http://www.pollster.com/08-VA-Dem-Pres-Primary.php
Also out from SurveyUSA is a poll in Maryland projecting a 55/32 for Obama.
http://www.pollster.com/08-MD-Dem-Pres-Primary.php
In both cases we are seeing a consistent trend of undecided voters moving over to the Obama camp and polls close in on the final days. What is also interesting is the recent trend for voters to switch over to Obama on the actual day.
Rain -
Having read your reasons (tahnks for that) but I still don’t really understand your support fro Hillary over Obama seeing as I think she stacks up worse on the issues you have raised. Clearly we both want to see a republican defeat, and whoever gets the nomination I hope wins, but at this point I still, despite your arguments see Obama as a more worthy contestant.
Would it be fair to suggest that you are a rusted-on Hillary supporter?
I defintely assumed and hoped, that she would win, but am now far more impressed with Obama and have changed my preference.
Not that it matters a damn, given that I can’t vote.
Can you?
Basil @ 227 –
Can’t put on the alfoil hat unfortunately because it interferes with the frequency from my cranium plate – and then the voices would be angry …
Jen @ 230 – Good question to finish – welcome to Conspiracy World!
So Rain, are you now, or have you ever been … a registered US voter?
In concerning news from the front, Andrew Landeryou provides compelling questions about the judgement of Obama.
http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/2008/02/enemies-within-barack-obama-campaigners.html
232 -
Thanks GG.
That’s done it for me. Go McCain.
Hey jen et al, I wouldn’t say I was rusted on, or part of the ‘Clinton Machine’ LOL (but I do have a lot of family/friends etc living in the USA, I am also on several work e-lists and newsgroups etc, which being dominated by yanks have become dominated by topics on their primaries of late).
) then you might like to check out this commentary site:
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Flat text is an unfortunate medium for communication, as there is no body language to moderate the meaning, and perhaps my peculiar word choices & grammar trigger different reactions in different people. Sometimes its the reader’s assumptions, not the writer’s intent.
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Bottom line, I dont care that much about US elections etc, (not as much as I was desperate with the Oz ones last year) I’m just keenly interested, curious, just like many here are, I guess – (I also watch Battlestar Galactica with similar fervour and passion) — so, I’m not going to lose sleep over it, whatever happens, though I might get a little distressed with a McCain win.
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First up back in early Jan, my early scannings to inform myself was up there for Edwards, especially after the 3-way Democrat TV debate. He dropped out, and of the remaining I didn’t have much druthers, both equally blahh, boring, same old, to me – but have watched how its panned out in the weeks since, and so yeh, if I was to have a vote, it would be for Clinton now. Not that I think Clinton is anything so wonderful to write home about mind you – dont get me wrong on that – just Obama has continued to slowly sink, little by little, on my personal opinion meter as time has gone on, leaving Clinton behind as the only one left. Unfortunately.
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As for those clamouring for “facts”, I dont see that many here?? lots of conjecture, opinions (heated, and not so heated, emotive and not so emotive), speculation, insights, comments, what ifs, and all sorts of 2-cents worth, (and plenty of YES. WE. CAN.), and re-posting a lot of pro-Obama MSM quotes, and some freakingly good analysis (especially on the stats) from time to time.
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But if you want some facts, from alternative perspectives, that quote/link directly from public domain US govt sites for example, as well as other less well-known US media sources, that you are welcome to verify,
(I’ve done some of them myself – but I’m not *THAT* keen to detail every single one
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http://www.politidose.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=50
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Plenty of facts, links, and pointers to other sources of facts, there to keep you going, if you follow the threads through from say, early January to today?
(Also has some interesting vids of primary campaign ads released prior to Feb 5)
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oh… and *huggles* to those who do like my posts *sniff*.. didn’t see you on my first pass.. I figure if I’m not getting responses like Glen gets, I must be doin OK..
232
Greeensborough Growler
Oh dear! Is that a serious article or comic relief?
How many people would have any idea that the iconic figure of Che (and usually in ‘that’ photo!) was anything but a young idealist in search of utopia?
I’ve seen some desperate journalism in my day, but purlease, that’s infantile!
Anyone who put up that poster probably knows nothing about the historical figure nor the historical facts, so going on a diatribe about Che is hardly the point. Suggesting that Obama has revolutionary forces, ready to execute the opposition on the strength of one poster is laughable nonsense.
Funny, though.
#232 – GG – as I have predicted the “swift-boating’ has started, although this is just a mild “paddle boating”. It will get nastier.
Rain: Linking a pro-Hillary blog site has no more credibility then linking a pro-obama blog site.
I will review the material on that page further at a later stage, but on a cursory glance, it appears to be a classic ‘all accusations’ and ‘no facts’ type of partisan blog.
KR,
You obviosly have bought the hagiography about Che. The fact remains as to why Obama’s staff had that photo prominently displayed in his office.
A worrying sign for the Obama bandwagon.
Rain -
fair call. Let’s just hope either one of them trounces the dreadful incumbents.
KR-
I am assuming the borough man was jesting. Didn’t we all have Che posters in the 70’s? Along with psychadelic Hendrix.
(Hope I don’t get arrested under the anti-terrorism laws. Wouldn’t have dared admit it under Howard.)
I was listening to triple j on the sorry thing. I heard two interesting things.
1. They had a tape of the Rodent actually saying sorry to the stolen generation in much the same words as Rudd but it was not said in parliament. It was in 1997 at the Reconciliation Council or something like that.
2. Andrew Bolt was on (first time ever) and claimed that when you really looked at the evidence in each “stolen” case, that he had only been able to find about ten that were definitely stolen. What is the evidence, in hard terms, for the number of truly “stolen” children? Before everyone lynches me, I am not saying he is right, I would really like to know as the reporter on triple j couldn’t nail him and they’re usually pretty good with rebuttals to crap arguments.
Here is the wording of Sorry for tomorrow.
Liberals better hope Obama does not win. I’m sure he will not forget what was said by howard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4sNQegNssI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygD4zWYzKVc
Further on the Che image:
If you check the video on Fox, there’s this note:
The office featured in this video is funded by volunteers of the Barack Obama Campaign and is not an official headquarters for his campaign.
…and some young women, who don’t look like murdering revolutionaries to me, are there with a Che poster in the background. OK, it’s in poor taste considering the Latino implications, but that’s about all one could say about it. I”m sure they think it’s somehow ‘cool’ and symbolizes their ’struggle’, and would be horrified if they actually knew any better.
239
Greeensborough Growler
Ah, how do you figure that? I haven’t bought ‘anything’ and you clearly did not read what I said.
Now, go back and try again and I’ll give you extra points for English comprehension if you can get it right this time! LOL
240
jen
Nah, jen, I had Beethoven, who looked even madder than Karl Marx, and sure as hell upset the folks (probably the real point LOL)
KR,
As the official all singing, all dancing you beaut, beware of substitute leader of the Poll Bludger Official Obama cheersquad,……… You would say that!
re Che poster
lets be alittle careful of ANY anti Hillay or anti Obama material until its verified
lets give Obama the benefit of the doubt
If the roles were reversed on Hillary re the Che poster we’d say the same ?
Jen , surely you jest re MCain..you are a fully fledged officer on the Obama ship?
GG
careful kr might get upset -people in glass houses and all that
Ron,
There is no doubt! Doubt is for those desperately going for the cover up. It was on Landeryou’s blog, so it must be true.
Gusface,
People in glass house should not dress in the nude. KR please note.
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