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Forty-second parliament: open thread
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701 Comments
quite simply
today australia took the first tenous steps toward nationhod as a mature and committed society.
i applaud All politicians who in their hearts sympathise with the “sorry” motion
we can but be a better people for it
Just posted this on the previous thread. Then noticed. Thanks William.
What an excellent performance tonight.
A Local Man. Ben Chifley. Written Bob Ellis etc. Performed by Tony Barry. Brilliantly portrayed. Followed by a Q and A session, when Mr Barry responded to queries from the audience.
Mr Barry expressed his sincerity, in not only his role, but his responses, especially in advocating that the (receptive) audience participate in the ‘Sorry’ Parliament, tomorrow morning.
Mr Barry clearly acts the role of Ben Chifley, as a believer in fairness, justice, hope.
And invites us, as we know, to believe in the same.
Gusface,
Hear, hear,
A great day for all Australians.
Hi William
Yep, we are taking the first step in our future development…can’t let on too much, but it’s all good.
Consensus is needed to set this nation up for the next boom…food.
Rudd is on the right track on this 2020 summit…but the detractors will see it differently.
The conservatives are in a position of having to cooperate…funny that.
Can we be a better nation for such a simple word like sorry? I hope so. With indigenous people as a focus topic at th 20/20 summit we will see where we can go from here. As it is said “past wrongs, future rights”!
In the while before, I am going to sleep.
Happily.
Until then.
Aborigines will joyously celebrate today & so they should
They will be disappointed the Liberal Party leaders did not so joyously embrace the apology statement as Labor have so unambigously done
However Aborigines will be very satisfied that Rudd’s firm leadership on the issue has committed the Liberals to Labor policy from which they can never retreat.
Will the practical challenges of bridging the gap in Aboriginal disadvantage
be long term or will we see some positive outcomes by the next Election ?
Ron,
Not the day to pick a fight with the Libs – they got there in the end (and the late production of the wording hardly helped them).
Today’s more a day to reflect on the significance of the events of the past, and on the apology, and on all the things that still need to happen.
Hope you all got a glimpse of Wilson Tuckey ostentatiously absenting himself from the Welcome to Country ceremony. He looked a right prat.
What a beginning to the 42nd Parliament yesterday — dignified, restrained, moving. And Horatio did and said all the right things as well. Go Ruddster.
Yes, hooray, we finally made it. What a momentous day for all Australians, I realise that it is at this stage symbolic only, but hey, that matters!
Now the challenge is on to turn that symbolism into reality in helping our Indigenous peoples overcome the last 200 years of neglect and worse. I for one will be judging our new government on how well they manage this.
I posted this on the other thread last night I know but how impressive is Fred Cheney, inspiring in his compassion and genuine understanding of the issues.
Parlianment returns! and what an interesting parlianment is should be with Rudd travelling well but with a few storm clouds ahead to keep him on his toes and Lord Nelson standing on the desk of the HMS Liberal as it slowly sinks.
Does anybody know what time the apology is likely to be read out?
Not the day to pick a fight with the Libs, but I’ll make an exception for Tuckey – he’s a complete fool.
During the O’Connor count, when at one stage there was a (theoretical) chance that the National candidate could unseat him, I reckon both the Nationals (gain an extra seat) and the Liberals (lose their biggest idiot) must have been hoping the Nationals fellow could get up. Alas, not to be, and the Liberal leadership will have to endure another three years of his mindless public commentary on all manner of things.
Watching Fred Cheney last night made me realise how decency has evaporated from the once respectable Liberal Party. Well done JWH!
I believe PM Rudd makes his speech at 9am
BK its Fred Chaney. Not being pedantic, but I doubt he would want to be associated in any way with the US VP.
its already being shown live on Prime network this morning, should be on ABC soon.
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Will be shown live on the big screen in Fed Sq Melbourne, (so commuters get to see it on their way to work!) and In Perth city as well, many getting up very early over there to watch it in town. Dunno about the other cities
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MayoFeral – my humblest apologies! I am certain he would not wish any association with that thug.
Mayo, mea culpa also, but I don’t think anyone can confuse the two, Fred is a HUMAN BEING!
Morning fellow PB’s -
and what a day it is!
Watching parliament open yesterday and then hearing the speakers on 7.30 report was so moving. And plaudits to Brendan Nelson who after all the nonsense did a fine job. Today is about reconciliation, and perhaps that crosses the political divide as well. (just for an hour or 2, or life would be no fun) .
why is john howard on telly? – hang on, its the rat on bananas in pyjamas pretending to be a pig…
you’re spot on jen at 20 – apologies for above…
It’s OK Stuart.
JWH is the exception. Along with Wilson Prat Tuckey.
Did anyone watch Wilson Tuckey on Sky News? What an absolutely REPULSIVE man! That child cannot control his temper at all, and cannot answer anything like a mature man of his age.
Well, the ovation alone gave me a lump in the throat.
No matter your views to sorry, that response to the speech was pretty damn moving.
I posted this yesterday on the other thread: “I always thought this country of mine has no soul. I think we have found our soul. The heritage of our indigenous comrades is our soul. I saw that today and I hope to see it again tomorrow”.
Just watched Rudd’s speech. I saw it again. Yes, we have found our soul.
Bloody hell, tears in my eyes. I have not wasted my vote on Rudd. Can you imagine that Rudd’s speech was delivered by Obama. It will bring the heaven down.
Many years ago, growing up through high school, I remember having the attitude of not wanting to apologise for the actions of previous generations over which I had no part. However, today is the first day in my life that I remember being proud of the actions of my Government.
Thank you Kevin Rudd, for speaking for me and bringing about something 3-4 years ago I thought would never happen. And thank you Brendan Nelson for providing the bi-partisanship that was needed on this issue.
Yeah, Nelson’s speech might not be as good, but the mere fact that the leader of the federal liberal party is making it, makes it all the more important. This is an important step for them as a party.
Re nelsons speech…….i’m not sure if i have quite digested some parts of it, but it seemed to me on first hearing that he was trying to have it a bit both ways, saying sorry but also making “excuses” for the removal and implying atht it wasn’t bad…….and then taht bit about there shoudln’t be any compensation etc……was this really necessary on this occasion?……
29
Erytnicam
Today a great thing is happening, something that’s been gnawing away through the Howard years, something that should never have been allowed to fester is being addressed with decency and respect.
I was explaining to my 7 year old why the Prime Minister was on the radio saying ’sorry’. I told him that many years ago people had the attitude that Aborigines would ‘die out’ so we took their children away. I told him this was ‘complicated’, but now we realise that it was wrong and caused a huge amount of suffering, so now, finally, we are saying ’sorry’.
Quick as a flash he shot back: “that’s not ‘complicated’”
The other great thing that’s happening today is that the divisive politicking over this issue, the Howard wedge and small mindedness is being put in the dustbin of history. Good riddance.
Kevin, you’ve done a truly wonderful thing, decently and with great dignity, and we are with you.
Effing brilliant, a bipartisan War Cabinet on housing and the Constitution Amendment. You have to hand it to Rudd for his strategic vision.
BTW: Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating was there. Where is JWH? Shame on you rodent for having such a small mind and heart.
the finnigans @ 32: i think it would have been pretty offensive to have el rodente there!
i feel incredibly proud of kevin et al.
horatio nelson – couldn’t help himself! couldn’t just say a heartfelt sorry and leave it there. abbott was on ABC radio this morning being his usual offensive self – same old stuff: “good for them” etc. i nearly threw up.
I have my reservations about Nelson’s response, as did many on the lawns outside apparently, but in the new bi-partisan spirit I will keep them to myself. I guess in fairness he was between a rock and a hard place.
Yeah the bipartisan committee idea was genius. Probably both politically and in terms of outcome.
I’m glad JWH wasn’t there, really. It would have made the event superficial if even he could be part of it….
32
The Finnigans
Hey Finn, who’s the ‘me too’ politician now, eh??? LOL
Good to see Horatio Hornblower following the leader of Australia with his fractious party of mean spirited hacks falling into line.
Bravo Rudd, a real leader, not a dessicated little coconut.
35
Dangerous
yeah, the little toad is not even ‘history’ anymore! He’s the rodent who cannot show his face.
Perfectly fitting, don’t ya reckon?
Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating all have a lot to be proud of, the rodent’s abscence says it all really.
#36 – KR – I have never questioned Obama’s oratory skill. I don’t want to start another war, especially not today or on this thread.
All in all, a wonderful day for this country, at last I can be proud to call myself an Aussie again after the dark years.
“However, several Liberal MPs appear to have boycotted the historic apology.
After loudly reciting the Lord’s Prayer, WA Liberal Wilson Tuckey walked out of the chamber and fellow WA Liberal Don Randall is also not currently present.
NSW Liberal Alby Schultz, who also told The Australian Online yesterday that he was reserving his right not to attend, was not present. And Victorian Liberal Sophie Mirabella was also not in the chamber. ”
Typical spiteful hacks. They SAY they will support the apology in the party room, but then they can’t actually do it in practice. They should be held in contempt.
Was anyone else disappointed, but somehow not surprised, by all of the empty opposition benches during the apology?
41, Andos, don’t forget we kicked a fair few out
TheFinnigans, yer I noticed Howard was the only missing one, I had read that all living ex-PMs were invited to attend as special guests, and Fraser had personally requested Howard, who declined the invitation. Gough is an old sick man, and may have been forgiven if he couldn’t make it on health grounds, but Howard declining the invite is just appalling.
I’m really impressed, a real 5-tissue tear-jerker LOL – my vote not wasted, and the bi-partisan offer was a really cool strategy, with just a hint of “pay-back”!
.
And onyer Melbourne Mates in Fed Square! Yay, around 3/4 of the crowd turned their backs on Nelson’s speech at the Intervention point, and then the tangent of the veterans? *sheesh* Nelson, you started off fine, but you should have quit while you were ahead, but then you really blew any brownie points from me!
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and hey Go the Ruddy one
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Yes. Rudd’s speech was heartening to watch. He was composed and thoughtful. Congratulations on a job well done. Congratulations too to everyone present for having the decency to keep quiet and show respect. It’s probably a good thing that that moron Tuckey absented himself from proceedings as it would have been just like his crude manners to interject and try and disrupt the speech. A great day for Australia. Here’s to the future.
“After loudly reciting the Lord’s Prayer, WA Liberal Wilson Tuckey walked out of the chamber and fellow WA Liberal Don Randall was also reported absent .
NSW Liberal Alby Schultz, who told The Australian Online yesterday that he was reserving his right not to attend, was not present. And Victorian Liberal Sophie Mirabella was also not in the chamber.”
Says it all really and goes some way to explaining why Nelson was so appalling. He is being wedged by his own pathetic party. Tuckey and his ilk are a disgrace to the parliament, and a disgrace to Australia. Until they kick out the type of right-wing scum named above the Liberals get nowhere.
Was I seeing things but half way though Nelson’s speech I’m sure Petro (Kooyong) was a sleep, cleary the Doctor’s wives have been keeping him up late.
I noticed a few Liberal MP’s were absance, but over all a very good speech by PM Rudd, while Nelson’s speech was good, at times he appeared very soft and less committed to what he was saying.
I like PM Rudd’s joint committee idea, it is very good politics and hopefully bring successful outcomes.
Today is one of those few days when we can say our Parlianment earnt it’s keep and I agreed with Nelson’s point that the moment should remind the Pollies that Laws sometimes have unintended consequences.
38
The Finnigans
Ah, sorry? I think you missed the reference, it was to all those Liberal whingers who last year kept saying that Rudd was just the ‘me too’ candidate.
Well, look at him now! Doesn’t look like he’s ‘me too’, in fact Horatio Hornblower is filling that role, ah, how shall we say…’admirably’? LOL
I caught a glimpse of Cossie. He was sort of twitching around and looked rather uncomfortable. Maybe not because of “Sorry” but rather he was on the wrong side and on the back bench. Poor Cossie, the sooner he goes to the Big Mac, the better for his soul.
#47, KR – My sincerely apology for not getting the point.
He was probably reflecting on the fact that if he wasn’t so gutless he could’ve been in a position to be the P.M. who moved such an apology motion.
At least he was wake
What’s the bet that the opposition will spend 6 or 7 years figuring out they need to purge the right before they get into shape to win an election.
#52 – Yep. Ruddy has sown up the next term with today’s Sorry day.
49
The Finnigans
no wuckers! LOL
We have a government again. Hooray!
Hear! Hear!
The concert is about to begin, wonder if the Oilers are there to do “beds are burning”
Annabel Crabb said it in today’s SMH:
“Wilson Tuckey, Parliament’s equivalent of the pub galah…”
..oh yes, she nailed it.
KR, she is a little cutie, que?
53 & The Finnigans,
You make an Interesting point about today possibly giving Rudd the next Election, for I felt in the early stages of Nelson’s speech that on a campaign trail I can’t see Nelson out performing Rudd, one positive for Nelson, he speaks better than Howard ever did
That was so cool and politically a slamdunk. At the same time hundreds of thousands of ppl, in Parliament, town squares, schools,homes,workplaces etc all stood up and clapped and cheered.
Great thing for the Country, the Koories and that nice Mr Rudd, what a very smart cookie is he
Perhaps we should all spare a thought for John Howard today. What would those thoughts be?
I don’t think Rudd did it for political reasons, he did it because it was the right thing to do.
BK, I don’t think Rodents are capable of thought, instinctual reactions maybe!
I was a bit sceptical about the “Sorry” and thought it had been given much too much prominence as a priority for fixing the country. I thought it was a “cause celebre” which obscured the much more pressing practical problems which should have been addressed. I have also been sceptical about Rudd’s ability to show leadership and vision.
Having heard the speech today saying Sorry, I am very overjoyed to say I have been completely wrong. A very proud moment for our country. And I even heard a vague reference to Obama in the phrase “audacity of faith”.
Wilson Tuckey doesn’t get it; he never will. He can bark like a dog into the wind along with the likes of Keith Windschuttle.
Paul Keating (in parliament) on Wilson “Iron Bar” Tuckey:
“…you stupid foul-mouthed grub.”
“Shut up! Sit down and shut up, you pig!”
“You boxhead you wouldn’t know, you’re flat out counting past ten.”
How heartless are these people!?
I think they meant to say “former” Nationals leader and deputy prime minister Mark Vaile… whoops.
the wonderful thing about john howard now is that he’s been rendered a complete non-entity. he’ll be in his ordinary house in wollstonecraft, with a rug over his knees, slurping his hot tea.
I think Keating would be pretty happy today. This would’ve happened in 1996 if Keating won that election.
Really this is just another sign that we have been culturally on pause for the previous 11 years.
Yes on Pause thanks to the ALP taking 10 years to find a leader worth voting for.
I’m not impressed with any MP who failed to turn up after all if you can’t even be bothered turning up to the first morning then why did you bother standing for election.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23206540-29277,00.html
Did anybody listen to AM this morning so many people in the town of central NSW they had on were against the appology or had reservations about it.
ShowsOn (70) If you care to empty your mind of its partisanship, you might concede any cultural ‘pause’ bearing on indigenous Australians, has a longer life span.
Didn’t hear it. But it doesn’t really matter, it was the right thing to do, even if it wasn’t supported by a majority of the Australian population.
For somethings it is the job of the government to LEAD, not FOLLOW the wishes of the population.
ShowsOn @ 72: that’s just the most disgraceful behaviour. abbott on ABC radio this morning, when asked if there were any coalition members planning to not turn up, said, oh i don’t know, any personal things could happen to cause them to not get to parliament.
dsgraceful pig. great stuff from the shadow indigenous affairs minister. stuff like that will hopefully ensure their continued shadow status.
59
Basil Fawlty
Mmmmm, have to agree with that Baz, with an impish humour and sharp eye, and a style we’ve not seen much of in serious political commentary. She’s our very own Jon Stewart, comic on the outside, deeply observant and serious on the inside.
yep, cute alright!
http://apology.west.net.au/redfern.html
Rudd was dignified and impressive.
Nelson was disappointing and offensive in his lack of understanding. The liberals have shown once and for all that they simply have no idea of the importance of a simple, unequivical apology.To raise the issue of compensation during the apology was disgraceful.
It may have been the right thing but as noted on Insiders last year when JWH began the intervention, when have Aboriginal issues ever won someone an elaction?
Wilson “Ironbar” Tuckey walked out of parliament after loudly reciting the Lord’s Prayer. Alby “Sergeant” Shultz was not in attendance, neither was Don Randall or Sophie Mirabellaopoulos. Gutless spivs: busy out whitewashing with John Howard, no doubt.
With each passing day, John Howard’s legacy is being whittled away; all he will have left is the GST and the Iraq War: some legacy.
CATHARSIS
1. the purging of the emotions or relieving of emotional tensions, esp. through certain kinds of art, as tragedy or music.
2. Medicine/Medical. purgation.
3. Psychiatry. a. psychotherapy that encourages or permits the discharge of pent-up, socially unacceptable affects.
b. discharge of pent-up emotions so as to result in the alleviation of symptoms or the permanent relief of the condition.
Today, we have been cleansed.
74
David Charles Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 11:25 am
ShowsOn (70) If you care to empty your mind of its partisanship, you might concede any cultural ‘pause’ bearing on indigenous Australians, has a longer life span…
I believe Showson is referring to the ‘progress’ signified by the ‘Bring them Home Report’ commissioned by the Keating govt in 1995, and asserting that Keating would have continued this ‘cultural development’ had he retained office in ‘96.
Instead, nothing for 11 years… (I guess Howard moved slightly during the last election campaign – movement that may be judged of dubious worth).
If yours is just a general comment on how poorly Australia has addressed the problems of aboriginal people over a long period of time… fair enough!
Should the Federal Government pay compensation to truely stolen people, ie those people removed because of their race?
I think so but only in this instance!
79
Jen
Today will blight Horatio Hornet forever. One chance to rise above the hacks and spivs in his party, to rise above the malignant meanness of Howard, to join the people of Australia and he bloodywell blew it!
Shameful, pandering, slobbering and spineless.
Rudd, on the other hand, was breathtakingly dignified and at the same time dinkydie.
Like he said, an apology “without qualification”, not the scumbaggery that Nelson tried to pass off as one.
John of Melbourne, Are you really saying that unless an issue wins you an election you don’t do it.
Regarding the views of people in a country town, it’s all very good and well to quote them but the Government has done the right thing just as the Liberals did the right thing in 1967.
At no stage did Rudd apology on behalf of people outside the Political process which in itself ends the sillness about ‘I’m not sorry for I didn’t do anything’
As a fellow Liberal I susgest if you want to return to Government it’s high time you start listening to the likes of myself or feel free to disappear into the history books.
‘Laugh’ of the day would have to be Ironbar shouting the Lord’s Prayer. Was he trying to awaken his deity to the presence of unbelievers – aka non racists – in the house?
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The Finnigans @ 32
“BTW: Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating was there. Where is JWH?
He and Janette are probably busy practicing curtsying, wearing silly hats and slipping on garters.
80
“It may have been the right thing but as noted on Insiders last year when JWH began the intervention, when have Aboriginal issues ever won someone an elaction?”
Today.
Ironbar is probably as we speak rounding up white sheets, firebrands and crosses for burning, who cares, he is such an irrelevance and he has again proven it today. Wot a w..ker!
Oh I hope he is made a hereditary peer in the House of Lords. If that’s what it takes to get him out of the country, then so be it.
I also hope Rudd makes Downer life-long ambassador to Iraq.
The recalcitrant libs who either left the house, did not show or read a bloody magazine for God’s sake, deserve to get trounced at the next election.
And I really was trying to rise above today, but as usual they have dragged us down to the lowest level.
Deep breaths, counting….
Ive paid out heaps on Joe Hockey in the past ,but in parliament today when the speaker called for all to stand in support of the motion,he noticeably made sure that those seated around him got up,also he was one of the first to stand on the liberal side-credit where its due
Don’t worry Jen, I suspect if Rudd does okay as PM, Mr Pearce may be in trouble and who knows what the AEC will do to Aston’s boundary.
BMW # 86
No I’m not saying that I’m simply pointing out it does not get you re-elected.
All peoples views are valid.
read entry #84
John, I agree with you totally part of Keatings problem was he only listened to the arty crafty f**ts
Wayaway (83) The final paragraph of your post is apt. Showson is blinded by the ‘light’.
BMW #95 too true!
I congratulate, roughly but not precisely in order:
the indigenous people, particularly those who worked for reconciliation
Kevin Rudd
Jenny Macklin
the ALP in general
Bob Brown and Chris Milne [look at her speech at the time of the NT invasion]
former ALP PM’s, Gough and Bob and Paul
Mal Fraser [deserves praise]
Fred Chaney deserves praise
most Australian people [and I'm sure there are more onside today than yesterday]
And then there are the ‘others’
Brendon Nelson and his mates, who nearly ‘got it’ but just missed, but a miss by an inch is as good as a mile
those who absented themselves
Have I omitted anyone?
and a gap too large to fit on the screen to whatshisname the previous bloke who wasnt there at all at all in any way.
Jen,
I am more concerned about those who attended and provided their numbers to the apology than about those who absented themselves. At least they were honest about their recalcitrance and did not mouth words they did not believe. An apology without conviction is nothing. It shows there are still hold outs in the community and I suppose you are never going to please everyone.
Nelson did reasonably well apart from the comparison with the older generation of soldiers etc. He should be given some credit for getting the majoriy of his Party to the occaission and also for embracing Rudd’s new bi partisan agenda on indigenous issues.
Compensation will come through the promise to never do it again. There will also be plenty of money spent on health, education and housing. The best compensation will be if we can achieve real progress on all these matters in the coming years for the new generation.
For me, the best part of the day has been to see the sparkle in the eyes of the aboriginals being interviewed. You can tell today is a very special day for them.
I hope this can be a new beginning for a united Australia.
First question time @ 2pm, going to be compulsory watching today.
GG, couldn’t agree more, it now becomes practical measures to improve housing, health and welfare. This will be the real test of our resolve, no more using the issue as a political football.
No they’re not, not if they are wrong. Some views are right, some views are wrong. Anything else is post-modernist quackery.
For example, Nelson’s speech today argued that people – acting out government policies – had the “best intentions” when removing children from their parents.
Nelson completely misses the fact that the policy was WRONG. It is not enough to have “best intentions” when what you are doing involves breaching the natural rights of other human beings.
If you think “best intentions” is a reasonable excuse, then you don’t actually believe in human rights. If you don’t believe in human rights, you don’t believe in democracy.
No. Keating understood what the term “human rights” means, whereas the previous government didn’t.
Ironbar loudly reciting the Lord’s Prayer leaves me nonplussed to say the least!
Original sin, Wilson, is what God is still blaming us for.
“Please God, it wasn’t us. It was Eve. We can’t be blamed for her wrong”
Tell that to your constituents, you mongrel.
ShowsOn is that why he was best mates with Suharto?
Reciting the Lord’s prayer is pointless, it should be scrapped.
We are humans, we need to fix our own problems. If we can’t do that then nothing else will fix them for us.
He wasn’t best mates with Suharto. Avoid lying, it doesn’t help your lack of argument.
Or perhaps you are suggesting that Keating should’ve gone to war against Indonesia? If that is the case, why didn’t Howard do it when he was P.M.?
In the context of a people in our parliament today who have a culture and dreamtime that goes back eons, the Lord’s Prayer sounded anachronistic.
We are not simply a Judeo-Christian society, as was so vividly illustrated in the past 2 days in Canberra.
Interesting that the man proclaiming it with the loudest voice breaches the very basis of the Christian doctrine. Not much ‘loving one another’ happening in that heart.
ShowsOn, First I believe we both support the Rudd Government’s apology and out of respect to today’s message I think we can leave the debate about the Keating Government to another day!
Well I realise people’s biases will show here but I just wanted to add that I thought it was one of Rudd’s best speeches to date. It was dignified, more human than some of his past efforts, and not too long. More like that, please.
Also a major item introduced already – legislation for the dismantling of WorkChoices. If the coalition is stupid enough to block this in the Senate, the DD trigger will be pulled rather swiftly I should imagine. Even delaying it till 1 July will do little for Coalition support, as Labor has a clear mandate to move on this issue.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/13/2161374.htm
I would like to know if there is any opinion polling suggesting that the majority of people want anythign other than an end to this system. I would have thought with the tightening in the economy since the election, WorkChoices can only have become even more unpopular. Julie Bishop’s position that this will risk higher inflation is absurd and she should eb challenged on it. Workchoices cannot both control the risk of inflation from higher wages and increase wages at the same time!
This is getting out of hand. We need Martin B to declare a ‘moratorium’ on the use of that expression.
OK.
It was used appropriately.
I have not seen a poll taken but if the Liberals are silly enough to block removel I would expect they would lose badly.
showson’s right – not all views are valid. that’s like saying every bit of crap that someone writes is of literary merit.
In writing previous post a DD election would be interesting for the Government is committed to cutting spending and we have had several rate rises although they would have happened regardless of who run last November
I agree whole heartedly about scrapping the lords prayer.
The scouts went halfway in the early 90’s with the scout promise.
It used to be “…do my best to honor the queen and god…”
It got changed to “…do my best to honor the queen of Australia and MY god..”
Maybe something like that, which caters for most people is a good starting point.
It does seem a little inconsistent that MPs can choose to swear a non-religious affirmation rather than an oath to God, but then have to go and recite the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ before the beginning of every Parliament.
I think this ritual needs to be scrapped entirely, as it is completely against the nature of our multicultural country.
Better, but I’d remove “queen of Australia” and replace it with “The Australian People”.
Our government is there to represent US, not someone else who lives in another country.
What a great day, the opposition and government standing together to recognise the past injustices.
The proof of the racist nature of the removals, the past policy and wording from the WA, QLD and NSW protectors of aboriginals, was read into Hansard as were first hand accounts of those who were stolen.
It leaves no doubt as to what was being apologised for and isolates those who pretend it was done with good intentions.
Credit to Nelson, he also helped make it an historic day, as for the MPs who boycotted the apology and parliament, it will also forever be on their record in hansard that they did not attend or deliberatley left. Future historians can make of that what they will.
Jen 107
Here here! Howard banging on about us being a christian society was one of his cleverest efforts at rewriting our history. But it was always a lie. For anyone who actually reads history books, Australia was one of the LEAST religeous countries in the western world through most of its history. Even for the anglo-saxon immigrants, whether you were descended from Irish catholics, Scottish protestants (or the relative minority of anglicans who were actually english), you tended to forget about religeon once you got to Australia. Religeous figures who were successful in Australian history were respected for doing social welfare work, not evangelising. Perhaps its only purpose was to serve as a marker of “class” in schooling. But even then, in a society that proudly said it was “classless”, how significant was that anyway?
If I could just lob something in here – one of the tenets of postmodernism, as popularly received, is that there is more than one dominant progressivist narrative, and other points of view deserve exploration. In certain respects, the examination of the narrative of indigenous peoples and something like, say, an apology on behalf of a nation is very much in a post-modern intellectual tradition. I’m sure that Howard probably thought an apology was ‘post-modernist quackery’.
re DD
Bring it on.
Would love to see Sophie Mirrabella get another whack, especially after today.
Couldn’t be big enough or dedicated enough to attend the first sitting of parliament.
BUT back to the point – wow, what a day. I almost feel like cheering for the Australian cricket team. Or at the very least travelling proudly on an Australian passport again.
Here is some bile from Liberal hack Dennis Jensen:
“There was a court case involving the Commonwealth and the finding of that, upheld on appeal, was that in the case of the Northern Territory there never was a policy of removing Aboriginal children based on race. Based on that, what are you apologising for ?”
OK. So according to Jensen stealing children from parents didn’t happen in the Northern Territory, so that means it is OK for it to happen elsewhere.
Why the hell do we elect thick people to parliament?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23206555-5013871,00.html
123
Yes Pancho.
Musn’t little the grubby little people undermine such an historic and momentous occasion.
What a proud and dignified race of people the aboriginal people are. Watching their faces as they listened to Rudd’s speech from the public gallery was moving beyond words.
I wonder what Fran Bailey, facing an appeal and possible second election in outer Melbourne, thinks about any stalling tactics on the repeal of Workchoices? It wouldn’t help her chances. ROTFL
#123
Dennis Jensen also rackons global warming and climate change is a myth. He’s also a pro nuclear scientist I balieve. Says it all really…
LOL! Thanks for reminding me! I forgot that he was that idiot more concerned with global warming on planets other than Earth.
Dr Dennis Jensen should know about climate change. After all – his PhD was in ceramics engineering???
John Howard is the ONLY living ex-Prime Minister did not attend the “Apology”.
Was he so scared that people would throw eggs on his face or he boycotted
this historic event?
Anyway, I’m glad Howard did not turn up to the event. He would just spoilt
the moment.
Howard would not have been welcome. It would have been bad taste on his part to attend. Also, it would not have made any sense for him to be there, given his stand on the issue. Completely inappropriate in every respect for him and for us.
Howard should have attended, then we would have had an unbroken period of recognition from 1972 to the present, from Gough as PM in 1972 to Kevin as PM in 2008. As it is we have this 11 year gap. Both sides showed overwhelming support for the apology so it was not a political thing, Howard by not attending emphasises the 11 year gap.
#106
The former PM had our airforce fully loaded and briefed at an airfield south west of Darwin during the Dili uprising.
Mission: destroy the Indonesian airforce!
Denis Jensen, the ceramics engineer, wrote a piece for online opinion which is very supportive of nuclear energy, and in it spruiked a product called Synroc which he claims is the answer to storing nuclear waste. Synroc is, of course, a ceramic. I wonder if Mr Jensen has some sort of interest in Synroc.
ShowsOn @ 90 –
“I also hope Rudd makes Downer life-long ambassador to Iraq.”
As much as I’d like to see the back of his lordship, don’t you think the Iraqis have suffered enough? I’m sure inflicting Dolly on them would violate at least one article of the Geneva Conventions, and quite possibly all of them!
Far better, IMHO, to give him a hammer and ship him off to help in the reconstruction of Timor Leste. While he’ll probably be as useless at that as everything else he’s tried, it just might get him reflecting on his part on that country’s destruction!
Interesting first Question time,
first point I like the new Speaker’s approach
Second point Swap Wayne Swan for Lindsay Tanner
Third point who are the Two Women MP’s sitting directly in camera shot, could they show a bit more life by at least nodding.
Finally, Tuckey is an A grade tool with his carry on about cheer squards
I’m pretty sure Tuckey’s toolish behaviour is genetic. At the very least it’s heavily ingrained – certainly I’ve never seen him act any other way. Nice to see that Gillard’s response was stiletto-sharp…
On this morning’s events, just an immensely satisfying thing to hear after so much intransigence over the last decade. As Rudd said, there’s a long way to go, and it sure won’t be easy. But I really want to hope that this time something will be done – and given Rudd’s tone and the bright faces on show today, I like to think that it will be.
Chris Pearce’s behaviour was truly unforgivable. Just a disgrace.
#135 (Third Point)
I think Yvette D’Abo is one of them (in front). One of the Class of ‘07.
# 129
Was Keating in attendance?
When Hockey stood up in question time, during Swan’s answer to a question, and made a point of order about ‘relevance’ he almost brought the house down!
Well, one side of it, at any rate. Lots of merriment!
John Howard was out for his morning walk while “the Apology” was happening in Canberra. Still had bodyguards with him. Do all former Prime Ministers have bodyguards? Surely once ‘they’ are private citizens such security is unwarranted?
Yes. He was interviewed on ABC TV half hour after the ceremony.
Chris Pearce’s margin in Aston was cut by 8% in Nov to now be about 5%.
Even ardent supporters would be shaking their heads and embarrassed at his behaviour. Pearce must be really confident of that 55% thinking like he does!
Show your lack of support by absenting yourself (like others) or by opposing and calling for a division. He didn’t do either.
To attend and then behave like a schoolboy shows how far the Libs, with members like him, have yet to travel.
TW #137 – You mean Yvette D’Ath, not Yvette D’Abo, I presume?
#143
LOL!! Oops. Yes, I met Yvette D’Ath. Freudian slip there….
Also, from the draft minutes of Parliament:
—
14) Ms Vamvakinou, 2:56:15 PM, to Ms Plibersek (Minister for Housing), Point of order, Mr Tuckey, 2:57:29 PM, Ms Plibersek, 2:57:54 PM, Point of order, Mr Tuckey, 2:58:35 PM
Member ordered to withdraw
Speaker ordered Mr Tuckey to withdraw for 1 hour for disorderly behaviour, 2:58:53 PM, Ms Plibersek, 2:59:11 PM
—
My, the man really is a fool.
Greens Leader Bob Brown’s move to amend today’s Sorry motion by adding a commitment to offer, “just compensation to all those who suffered loss” was lost when the government, opposition, Democrats and Family First all voted against it.
“This was a timely move to ensure that proper compensation flows from this great symbolic Sorry Day in Australian history. The government’s policy to refuse compensation is wrong. As time passes, it means that many more of the Stolen Generations will die without due recompense for the harm done,” Senator Brown said.
He’s right.
Brenton:
former PMs get an office. staff and, in this era of terrorism and security threats, bodyguards.
JP 147, I knew about the office and the staffing, but I am amazed about the security! Maybe for a while, but ongoing?
147
shame some of them don’t get a conscience.
For those who might not know where the fool acquired the epithet “Ironbar”. The more things change etc.
Wikipedia excerpt:
Tuckey is one of the most colourful and controversial figures in Australian federal politics. In 1967, while a publican in Carnarvon, he was convicted of assault after striking an Aboriginal man with a length of steel cable. It was alleged that the man was being pinned to the ground at the time.[1] He has had the nickname “Ironbar” ever since. Tuckey’s criminal conviction for this assault did not hinder his political ambitions. It is believed that Tuckey is the first federal Minister to have a criminal conviction for violent assault.
Although many of his constituents are Aboriginal Australians, Tuckey has long maintained his opposition to Aboriginal political causes such as land rights and native title. He has been criticised for not doing enough for Aboriginal people and of having become wealthy at their expense when he ran his hotel in Carnarvon prior to becoming a politician.
For those of us who had to work (well, me anyway), what did Chris Pearce actually say or do?
Never thought I would ever say anything that might even remotely justify anything Tuckey did, but wasn’t the guy he assaulted in the process of burgling Tuckey’s pub?
135 BMWofVictoria
I do believe the mp above Yvette D’Ath was julie Collins mp for Franklin. Jodie Campbell mp fro bass was also in view to D’Aths right i believe.
I did enjoy Tuckey being kicked out. Shame those usless greens can’t even read their how to vote cards so we have to put up with him.
Queensland Parliament’s Opposition Leader Springborg and Liberal Member for Currumbin Jann Stuckey were on their usual suspect behaviour during Question Time today too.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/13/2161858.htm
JWH has only himself to blame for being in the dustbin and completely irrelevant. If he swallowed whatever he had to swallow and made it to the Sorry Ceremony, he could have had his own little reconciliation. I am sure if he did that, they would accept his gesture. Having the last 5 PMs there, Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke, Keating and Howard would be an even more powerful symbolism. Of course, we all know that JWH has always been a petty, small hearted politician.
Fulvio, obviously the court didn’t take that to account, they convicted Tuckey. I seem to recall something about taking the law into your own hands from somewhere
Basil, you are absolutely right, whether someone was trying to rob you or not is in no way an excuse for cold bloodedly assaulting him with a weapon. But hey, it is the type of thing commonly raised in mitigation of penalty in Courts all over the country.
Although in this case the victim probably could argue that he was only taking back what was stolen from him in the first place!
151
Fulvio Sammut Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
For those of us who had to work (well, me anyway), what did Chris Pearce actually say or do?
Fulvio he had the arrogance ALL through Rudd’s appology statement to read a magazine & make funny faces to his next door colleague
Doubt whether any of his Electorate Liberal voters would condone such bad manners & gross disrespect
I was struggling to sleep last night and therefore turned on NewsRadio around mid-night and the Liberals were still crying foul about the new Friday sittings. Except that they did know why they were upset. Half where crying foul about not being in there electorates but the other half were sooking in that there would no question time. It was like they didn’t get it, they are no longer the government.
with a PM like Kevin Rudd , perhaps we are the lucky country after all
(with due respect to Donald horne)
because yesterday for the first time Aborigines welcomed Australians to Canberra
and today Aborigines feel they are respected and are PART of Australia
Scotty,
That seems to be correct. Well-spotted!
This is the seating plan in the new Reps.
http://www.crikey.com.au/Media/docs/seatingplan-26de94f4-c365-435f-b6b8-251b8e3cc8f8.pdf
On the matter of Howard having Protective Services coverage: He will have protection for as long as the AFP feel that therse are groups who might want to do him physical harm. And it probably makes sense too; if someone was to attempt to kidnap or kill him it would cost a lot more than giving him a guard.
Ron
“with a PM like Kevin Rudd , perhaps we are the lucky country after all”
Spot on, Rudd may well turn out to be one of Australia’s true great leaders.
He is like Gough with his many plans to bring equality and fairness back to Australia, yet without the flair, impatience and arrogance, like Keating with his determination and political skills, a touch of Hawke with the way he reaches out to all people and he has not forgotten Chifleys “light on the hill”. Yet he also has his own way of getting things done quickly and efficiently.
BS Fairman, why do you assume there would be anyone willing to pay the ransom?
As a Green I am impressed and relieved to see Rudd’s performance and obvious sincerity on this issue. He has performed far better than I was expecting, adn has the air of a true statesman.
The opposition on the other hand….
I must admit to being a little surprised – I was outside parliament house and after seeing the reaction to Nelson’s speech was worried that the real message of today would be lost. But it appears as though the positives are shining through.
Makes me question myself a little, am i looking for negatives that aren’t actually there???
Maybe it didn’t come across as badly on tv as it seemed to where i was – i dunno
Either way, it’s a great day for the country and hopefully we can move on from here
Womble, it was just as bad on tv but we are all trying very hard not to let it rain on the parade. And be bi-partisan
Maxine should be sitting in one of the seats behind the despatch box as a constant reminder/irritant to Coalition supporters.
166 Womble- No, Nelson’s speech was absolutely dismal. What a pathetic, mealy-mouthed, mean-spirited speech which summed him up perfectly and the pitiful wreck of a party the Rodent has left behind. Turnbull cannot replace that slimebag soon enough.
Rant over.
169
Rant agreed with. Abysmal and destructive effort.
Mayo, perhaps we can have subliminal images of her flashing on the screen as they are broadcasting parlt, really get up their noses!
So good Nelson insisted on all those flagpoles at schools. Made it so much easier to fly the flag today.
I hope one and all enjoyed the one hour slideshow of Canberra presented by the “Parliament of Australia” posing as a ” Sorry” presentation hoping you have broadband and not a dial up connection.
I should add on a brighter (and perhaps more sexist) note that I was very pleased to see that Kate Ellis was still placed in the “poll position” behind Kevin in the new parliament. That’s good politics.
Greetings all.
I wonder whether anyone is prepared to say what this apology will do to the Aboriginal child who’s been abused, molested and assaulted? To the egregious poverty in remote Aboriginal communities? To the rampant alcohol and drug abuse?
I would suggest nothing at all. Symbols are meaningless. Practical reconciliation, as the great Sir John Howard advocated, is of far superior value.
After all of those years looking at the 2 Trishes, I can assure you that the Member for Adelaide is a good look!!!!!
Diogs,
the lovely Kate does not make up for the pole position Julie Bishop holds on camera. Hopefully the opposition won’t be in frame very often.
welcome Generic Person from the dark side
with a television set you’d be able to see the eyes of the people in the Parliament gallery , in the Great Hall , in federation Square & in anyother public place
……see the eyes of both black & white Australians and that will beyour answer
if after looking , you are umoved then perhaps you wish to reflect humanity
GP
-no doubt you’re right that “symbols are meaningless”
Should get rid of funerals, weddings, crucifixes, birthday cakes, engagement rings, Easter eggs, headstones…
Perhaps both symbolism and practical measures are required. As Kevin Rudd said.
And perhaps you are a troll. Or Wilson Tuckey.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23207713-5013871,00.html
Explanations from those who weren’t there.
The usual garbage (do I mean the excuses or the MPs??)
Generic Person….honestly, if you aren’t educated on this issue by now, you aren’t even trying.
…and if you don’t think symbols are important, I hope you do not have the hypocrisy to salute the flag, celebrate Christmas, go to church or send people birthday cards – let alone expect someone to apologise to you if they accidentally bump into you on the train.
and Jen ….’diogs’ ?
I thought you only reserved some informallities for your ‘George” (Clooney) ?
Ron -
saves on bad typing. I call George Sweetheart.
No 178
I do not discount the emotional value of an apology, however, my view is that there must be real outcomes not symbolism.
What did the walk across the Harbour Bridge in 2000 achieve for Aboriginal people? Nothing.
Compare and contrast with the NT emergency intervention, and there is a world of difference. Thousands of children being medically checked, made to go to school and lives changed forever. Education and health are key to removing the enormous divide between indigenous and white Australians.
…which is, of course, why Rudd coupled the apology with an outline for action on all of these issues.
No 184
As long as the emergency intervention is not dismantled hastily, I will await with interest the outcome of this so-called “bi-partisan war cabinet”. One would be inclined to think the relationship between Abbott and Macklin to be cursory at best.
So what’s your gripe, then? You accept that it’s more than symbolism, and that action has been proposed.
Again, Rudd made it clear today that (rightly or wrongly) the intervention will run for at least a year. I really can’t see why something which was cobbled together in such a rush needs careful consideration before dismantling, but he’s the PM and I’m not.
One would hope that Macklin and Abbott can put aside their differences in a greater cause. If they can’t, then who’s to blame – the government who made the gesture or the individuals who couldn’t co operate?
GP, I have the feeling you’re carping for the sake of it.
183
Generic Person
Are you perhaps confusing two very seperate issue here?
No one doubts what you are saying about practical responses to immediate and dire problems, but what today was about was what happened some years ago to people who are either dead, or, very old now.
We cannot change the past, but to those whose lives were torn apart by policies of seperation and cultural ‘assimilation’, we can, and must, and just have, said sorry.
It was a cathartic moment for us all, for those who were were damaged by this process and for those of us who share a vicarious shame for what was done to these people.
Trying to pretend, like Howard did for the last decade, that somehow it did not matter, that saying ’sorry’ was not important to either them, or us, is to diminish the humanity of bringing these acts into the daylight, acknowledging the incalculable misery it caused, and extending a hand in compassion.
Nobody can undo what happened in the past. Nobody can undo the great transfiguration of Australia that happened today with one simple word:
“Sorry”
nothing
Cobbled together. Hmmmm, let me see. A speech in parliament fulfilling a party policy and election promise, or a sudden, unilateral intervention including suspension of aboriginal land tenures and rights in the eleventh year of the Howard era and just before an election.
Tell me again, what was cobbled together? I’m a little confused.
189
I think Zoom was referring to the NT intervention, which was put together on the back of an envelope (as so many policies were last year).
I was, as the context of my remark makes perfectly clear.
Thanks, Dangerous.
I move that Australia Day be relocated from 26 Jan to 13 February. I’ve a feeling that this is the day we first came together as a nation.
GP:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/rights-watchdog-proposes-overhaul-of-howards-emergencyintervention/2008/02/11/1202578694335.html
Thank the heavens that Howard’s racially divisive, morally corrupt reign is over.
Rudd has done more in 2 months then Howard has done in 11 years.
Howard’s legacy will be as a miserable old man, bigoted and with an inflated sense of self importance that doomed his party to political oblivion.
Good riddance.
I agree Ferny Grover re our National Day. Whatever happens we should remember 13 February as a truly special day.
There is a seating plan (pdf) for the House at http://www.aph.gov.au/House/work/index.htm#hcsp
No. 193
Asanque, it is all well and good quoting HREOC, but the reality is that Aboriginal policies have failed for the last thirty years.
What about the rights of the abused child?
The right to an education? The right to live with dignity? Ah, that’s right, such “rights” are conveniently forgotten so long as there is an undertone of anti-Howardism.
Generic Person, the walk over the Harbour Bridge and other bridges around the country did achieve something. Those walks were also powerfully symbolic and led to today. Clearly you didn’t listen to what Rudd said about 4-yr-old kindergarten for Indigenous kids, and housing. If anyone’s practical about what symbols mean, he is.
nothing
An observation. If you go by the vote on Ninemsm web page – “Do you agree with text of Kevin Rudd’s Sorry Apology”,52341 Yes and 92791 No, saying sorry may not be as popular as most on this site think. Seems we could still be a nation of rednecks despite today.
I see Generic Person is back with all their deeply thought out positions advanced. Good to know the liberals are in such good hands..
No 198
Let me know, mate, when you intend to contribute something less infantile.
…
No 197
That’s the point apres. Symbols have never achieved anything of material value to Aboriginal communities except for a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Yet, when the symbols are cast aside, the same old problems that have plagued Aboriginal communities remain. Indeed, as Noel Pearson wrote in The Australian yesterday, symbols risk reinforcing victimology amongst the indigenous community.
196 – last ditch policy decisions after total neglect for the last 11 years is not good policy.
Lets just ignore the rule of law and human rights, that’s worked out so well in the past.
Enjaybee at 199, let me assure you, from my own experience, the idiots will make a lot of noise, but they din’t make sense. And that’s the point.
199
Enjaybee
Maybe it says a lot about ninemsm devotees?
No 204
The fundamental injustice of Aborignal policy in the last 30 years was the election of Gough Whitlam, a prime minister who enshrined the welfare mentality into the indigenous populous. Thereafter, governments of both ilks have failed to correct that terrible plight on the indigenous community.
192 – There is a major problem with that. Valetines Day is the next day and there will be hundreds of thousands annoyed Girlfriends having to put with hung over guys as any public holiday day is just really an excuse to over drink in someone’s backyard.
Plus it should be a Friday or Monday for the long weekend.
203 GP – WHAT IS YOUR POINT??
You’ve said symbols are meaningless without action, yes, everyone agrees with you.
You’ve said the intervention should be given a chance – it’s been pointed out that the intervention is not going to be demolished quickly, will be given a year of operation to prove itself one way or another and reviewed.
You’ve said that the government needs to commit to practical action – it’s been pointed out that the government did so, as part of the ’sorry’ speech.
So WTF are you rabbitting on about??
No 209
My point is that the apology should have never taken place. The Australian people have nothing for which to be ashamed. They were not responsible.
Saying it’s Gough’s fault ignores the 40 years plus of poor policy before that.
Gough was not responsible for the aboriginal massacre in 1928, or any of the ones before that. He was not responsible for the failure to recognise aboriginals as citizens prior to 1967. He was not responsible for the removal of children on racial grounds, a cause of many of the problems existing today.
Far from enshrining a welfare mentality, the action of giving aborigines control over their lands allowed SOME (not all, admittedly) to enter into business arrangements which has given them an ongoing revenue stream and financial independence.
Of course, in most cases the land we have given aborigines has been the bits we don’t want – too isolated, too dry, too infertile. We then wonder why they can’t make a living off it.
GP – read the apology. It is on behalf of the Parliament and government not individuals.
No 211
Zoom, your argument still ignores the central failure of government policy and that is the promotion of welfarism. Welfarism has destroyed Aboriginal communities beyond the damage of forcible removal.
No 212
That’s a furphy. The Parliament of Australia is the elected body representing the people of Australia.
Nobody said they should be… The Gov said they were srry for the things the Gov did in the past
Surley your not ashamed of what the Gov said/did today?…after all…it had nothing to do with you?
Hi all, only found this site today, im so pleased to find so many other like minded people, it gives me hope.
GP, 30 years ago (1978) Fraser was Priminister.
The fact that you are only prepared to go back 30 years shows you have little clue on what today was about.
The apology should never have taken place????
All those misguided aboriginal people today saying that they had waited their whole lives for this to happen, that it meant the beginning of healing for them, that it was the most important thing that had happened in their lives…
they should have asked you, Generic Person.
You obviously know so much more than they do about what matters to them.
The Australian People elected the members of parliament who passed the laws that infringed on the human rights of a group of people on the basis of race.
Why is it that Liberal hacks don’t believe in human rights anymore? I thought they were the party of freedom and liberty!?
GP: We are responsible for refusing to acknowledge the gross injustices done to our indigenous fellow Australians. We are responsible for failing to acknowledge the pain and grief they carry today. We are responsible for how we respond to the situation that confronts us, so starkly and bleakly today…
…and today we took responsibility.
And GP if you could not see the response in the eyes of all those present in Canberra and around the nation today – if you failed to grasp the depth of meaning it had to finally have their pain acknowledged – then you are truly and sadly, blind.
No 216
Human rights only count when it adequately fits your argument ShowsOn. Shall I list the egregious examples of child abuse, or will you give me another rant on the alleged disregard for human rights?
No 217
The state parliaments, whom are responsible for passing the assimilation legislation, have all apologised. Indeed, it wasn’t until 1967 that the Federal Government even gained a constitutional right to legislate for the indigenous community.
The Australian taxpayer has paid dearly for the deeds of the past. Must we mention the $20 billion squandered through ATSIC over the years. That was the “self-determination” that the indigenous community had been demanding, except that organisation, lead by Aborigines, simply propped up a corrupt Aboriginal industry and failed miserably in helping the Aborigines out of their appauling situations.
How much more acknowledgement do they want?
HAHHAHAHAHAHAH yeah you’re really an expert on human rights mate.
Human rights are universal, that means they exist for everyone simply because all humans are born equal. The policies of past governments treated Aboriginal Australians as if they were sub-human as a way of justifying not extending them the rights that were afforded to European Australians.
The policy was WRONG, because it contravened the fundamental bases of our democracy – freedom and liberty.
Why is it that Liberal hacks tell us that families are the most important social organisation in society, but then they won’t admit that Aboriginal families were broken up as a matter of past Government policy?
That’s exactly what my wife suggested this evening. Perhaps a movement?
You ignore the territory parliaments that the Federal government could’ve over-ruled. Today the Federal parliament effectively apologised for not over ruling the territory parliaments.
So if we apologise we are condoning child abuse?
Not in fact trying to understand that the decades and now centuries of mistreatment have resulted in a people who are traumatised, wounded, displaced, and culturally deprived.
Which results in all kinds of social, health and psychological problems.
And therefore requires solutions that encompass all of those human elements.
Including both an apology as well as practical and social support.
Or is that too sophisticated a rationale for you?
Territory parliaments didn’t exist in a self governing role until 1979 (NT) or 1989 (ACT). Self-Government for Territories is a recent development.
I have just seen the ABC news in Perth ( an hour ago) and thought the time devoted to airing the views of those who deny there is anything to apologize for was in the same vein as Nelsons apology; it lacked sensitivity to the victims plight. People who have been hurt don’t need to have the perpetrators excuses brought up at the time your saying sorry.
Is this a result of the ABC’s policy of being even handed? Will the ABC give equal time to the perpetrators of sexual abuse to put their side of the story and (as seems all to common) allow them to state that what they did didn’t really hurt the victim or at least that wasn’t their intention.
Interesting logic hey? See how hard some people will try to MISUNDERSTAND what today was all about?
G.P. is hilarious, he is trying to do a law degree without understanding what the concept of human rights means.
‘They” ? It’s that convenient mental seperation that allows you to keep ‘them’ in their place… a kind of ‘responsibility apartheid’ that keeps the blame at arms length and enables you to avoid sharing the responsibility for at least acknowledging the pain ‘they’ feel. THEY, GP, are US. They are our fellow countrymen and today we stood together and shared the grief – and it meant so much to so many.
GP-
isn’t it time Janette tucked you into bed with a cup of cocoa?
Your work is done.
The rest of us have moved light years ahead of you. Together.
Generic Person. do something that has some meaning. Report back. Can’t help myself. Stupid person!
“Dangerous Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Ferny Grover Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
I move that Australia Day be relocated from 26 Jan to 13 February. I’ve a feeling that this is the day we first came together as a nation.
That’s exactly what my wife suggested this evening. Perhaps a movement?”
……………………………………………
My first reaction to this when I saw the sentiment expressed on another blog was that it was a cute idea but would not grow legs.
Now I’m not so sure, I reckon it deserves to be treated seriously and given a good run.
I know that Australia Day on Jan. 26 holds no particular positive symbolic worth as far as I am concerned and many other people of my acquaintance.
This day would.
I would support some sort of movement at the very least just to get some public feedback, I suspect many would be surprised.
To play devil’s advocate for a moment, perhaps they want us to give the country back to them? Given it was taken illegally? Or perhaps we should pay the going rate for the bits of Australia we want to keep (downtown Sydney may be rather pricey, but if you want the harbour views you’re going to have to fork out)?
Perhaps we just need to acknowledge that we’re all beneficiaries of this theft?
As an aside though, how far back should one go with this? If this had happened 30-40 years ago, I would hope that we would give the country back and ‘go home’ (as should happen on the West Bank to the Palestinians, to open a completely different can of worms). 100 years? New Mexico for the Mexicans? 200 years?
February 13.
Australia day, with no connotations of an invasion .
And using the aboriginal flag as a symbol of this country’s unity as a nation.
GP,
I saw the looks of disbelief on aboriginal faces as thousands streamed onto the bridge, …… people cared! You could see their morale lifting as they joined in.
Child abuse is often a side-product to poverty and lack of social cohesion,and with a renewed pride, I hope that there will be less need to anaesthetise the emotional pain with grog, the great scourge.
As a mother,I wonder how I would sleep while my children were exposed through poor housing….no sense of safety. We too often lack the imagination to see the problem in order to find a solution. Militarisation(NT intervention) of what is a health and housing problem(IMHO) sent the wrong message.
Surely the best thing we can do is end disadvantage. End the difference in life expectancy and other health and education differences.
The best thing that will come from Howard’s intervention is the fact he was willing to spend an estimated $2 billion for the first 12 months of the intervention. Howard’s attempt to win the election has effectively signed a blank cheque for future indigenous policy.
Of course money alone won’t fix the problems, but it will now be completely hypocritical for the Liberals to make an issue of any further investment in indigenous policy. In fact, the bipartisan commission announced today will effectively end discussion of how much is too much to spend on ending indigenous disadvantage.
Dismantling the morally bankrupt Howard legacy
One step at a time
Debunking Howard’s lies that we were not more of a terrorist threat due to our involvement in Iraq
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/plot-to-kill-1000-court/2008/02/13/1202760372047.html
No more non-core promises
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/no-more-noncore-promises-rudd/2008/02/13/1202760395108.html
No 226
We’ve all acknowledged their pain very dearly. Billions of dollars later, the indigenous people are still no better off.
220
“Why is it that Liberal hacks tell us that families are the most important social organisation in society, but then they won’t admit that Aboriginal families were broken up as a matter of past Government policy?”
Because they are not White families. Which lies at the heart of this shameful period of our whole history since settlement: Racism.
236
GP its not the price of the gift that matters, is how much thought youve put into it
Money can’t be used to buy off human rights.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
February 13 – Australia Day?
Excellent idea!
And how about making a feature of our songs to celebrate? Would have loved to have had a repeat of Midnight Oils (a la Olympics) today.
A platform for our Australian talent.
Something that we can ALL sing along with,unite us ,despite our political leanings.
No 236
That is absolutely offensive and totally unsubstantiated.
Heaven forbid someone criticise indigenous policy or promote personal responsibility without being labelled a racist.
No 237
ATSIC administered those billions. Aborignal people self-determined the squandering of billions in taxpayer dollars. It was no cynical abolition of human rights, regardless of your diatribes.
Stop completely confusing what the apology was for and about.
Having said that, I’m glad to hear you are holding the last ten years of indigenous policy in contempt.
What other word describes ploicies that were desigened to “assimilate” aboriginality out of existence, which was teh cornerstone for removing children from their families – not concerns for their welfare.
i say it again: Racism.
Your conception of human rights is incoherent. Stop commenting on things you know nothing about.
From Rudd’s speech:
“One of the most notorious examples of this approach was from the Northern Territory Protector of Natives, who stated:
Generally by the fifth and invariably by the sixth generation, all native characteristics of the Australian aborigine are eradicated. The problem of our half-castes—
to quote the Protector—
will quickly be eliminated by the complete disappearance of the black race, and the swift submergence of their progeny in the white …
The Western Australian Protector of Natives expressed not dissimilar views, expounding them at length in Canberra in 1937 at the first national conference on Indigenous affairs that brought together the Commonwealth and state protectors of natives. These are uncomfortable things to be brought out into the light. They are not pleasant. They are profoundly disturbing. But we must acknowledge these facts if we are to deal once and for all with the argument that the policy of generic forced separation was somehow well motivated, justified by its historical context and, as a result, unworthy of any apology today.”
No 241
I fully support the NT intervention. It is practical reconciliation delivering REAL not fanciful outcomes.
245 -
fantastic you think so highly of it GP.
those ungrateful aborigines have got it wrong again.
245 – Of course you do. That’s because you have no understanding of human rights or international law.
You got it Jen – it is racism though it’s disguised in many ways. Tonight it’s an economic costume (”… Billions of dollars later…) but the costume never really hides what’s underneath i.e. the fact that racism is alive and well in the Liberal party.
Which is going to cost $2 billion in its first year. So stop crapping on with how much indigenous policy has cost in the past. If it fixes disadvantage, then it is worth every dollar.
GP perhaps youd be more comfortable living in the repugnant republic of O’connor
GP – the problem is that it is substantiated and that people like yourself can’t accept or recognise this.
That’s why you’re all over the place – every time you’re argued into a position where you might have to see the truth, it’s too much for you, so you shift the argument.
(Your latest shift is from ‘we’ve nothing to apologise for’, ‘it’s the responsibility of state governments’ to talking about systemic failures in policy – you obviously cannot keep track of your own arguments).
I know it’s hard to look at what has been done to the Aboriginal people in this country, to admit that the ongoing damage they suffer as a people is our fault, but it is and we have to accept that.
Modern Australia is built upon dispossession and the basis of this dispossession was the racist pretence that Australia had no prior owners, that it was ‘terra nullius’, an empty land.
Everything that followed came out of that initial guilt – and believe me, the determined efforts made by white Australians to wipe out Aborigines, to make them invisible, suggests a sort of moral panic.
You obviously do feel guilty, or you wouldn’t keep trying to justify yourself here.
GP
whilst defending your right to express your views i disagree with your polemic
perhaps what the real issue is that each one of us regardless of political leanings accepts that a GRAVE injustice occurred up until the early 1970’s BY every political party
That is what the apology is all about.
To throw the dice the other way
where does the UK sit in regards to culpability and continuation of an effecticely genocidal policy framework.Is it liable for formulating such a policy and if so should we be holding the UK partly responsible?
No 247
International law is impotent and has scarcely a standing among sovereign nations.
The 1967 constitutional amendment allowed the Australian government to govern for all races. That is what the constitution says…you know, the document that underpins our entire political system.
252
Whether or not international law is currently enforced does not make what it says irrelevant. I notice you don’t comment on your understanding of human rights, which is just as well considering.
And your point about the constitution is—??
252 – GP – Yes because as individuals as part of this world, we should all do our duty to ignore international law.
Because the world works so well without the rule of law.
The government can govern for all races, but not discriminatorily, by breaching a Commonwealth Act, namely the Commonwealth Racial Discrimination Act.
Selective blindness seems to be a common theme throughout your posts.
251
The Brits have got their own version of stolen children…..many transported to children’s homes here and identities obliterated.
Yep, they aren’t cleanskins.
“The 1967 constitutional amendment allowed the Australian government to govern for all races”
Whoops – forgot about one. But then, they should have just fitted in with the rest of us Europeans.
GP: did someone say you’re doing a law degree? You mustn’t have yet done constitutional law…or even jurisprudence or legal reasoning. When you get there you will see how often the High Court consults and reflects on international law and, indeed, the law of other jurisdictions. Most notably, the Mason court, in Mabo 2, consulted Canadian law in relation to its indigenous people. While the Gleeson court has been less open in this regard (with the exception of Kirby J) it is fast becoming an anachronism in this respect.
Last word from me tonight. I was somewhat apprehensive about Kev’s speech today. Hard old bastard that I am ( I’ll take your children away if you mistreat them – to the extent we can do you in the court), but Kev has set some real goals. I hope he gets a bloke on board callled Paul Memmot who’s done some amazing stuff. He’s both an architect and anthropologist, recently put out a book on Aboriginal architecture, absolutely mind blowing. Try the U of Q Press, if you’re interested, or I’ll rummage around tomorrow if you can’t find it.
What would I do without Pollbludgers? You’re a legend, William, and now I’ve finished sucking up, do you need money?
counting, deep breaths…
Today was a remarkable day. and just like Brendan Nelson’s inept and offensive response, I do not want to allow the views of those who are unwilling or incapable of understanding the immense pain we as settlers have caused indigeneous Australians to cast a shadow on and the significant progress we have made today.
I am proud to have witnessed such a moment in our history.
Accolades to all those who have worked so hard and for so long to bring it about.
I, nor anyone else in modern day Australia, is guilty of any injustice committed in the past by our predecessors and I abhor any suggestion of the sort.
I am deeply disappointed by the failure of policy by government after government, but I am not morally culpable and nor is anyone else.
Welfarism and victimology have underpinned indigenous policy for far too long. The NT intervention, for all its criticisms, is bringing much needed health and education resources to Aboriginal children. Dramatic problems require dramatic solutions.
Human rights lawyer (and future Australian President) Geoffery Robertson now says it is time for the U.K. parliament to apologise for setting up the protectors pre-federation:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23206187-1702,00.html
Didn’t you vote in the last election? Today the Australian Parliament voted to apologise for past government policies that were discriminatory.
Since we live in a democracy, the parliament represents the Australian population, ergo, it apologised on your behalf.
No, but Governments are, and since we live in a representative democracy, they represent the population.
So has racist paternalism, which is what today’s apology was for. You can read the text of it if you don’t believe me.
And $2 billion dollars. So don’t you ever complain every again about how much money has been spent on indigenous disadvantage.
260
It’s called denial, GP.
You have profitted from the actions of the past. Someone who profits from crime is an accessory.
Australia is presently experiencing an economic boom based on mineral exports, for example. The Government cheerfully grants licenses for these minerals to be extracted. The money goes to supporting our way of life.
The land under leasehold once belonged to Aboriginal people (in some cases still does and in these cases they’re doing OK financially).
So, presently, you are directly benefitting from the dispossession of the Australian people.
You also presumably voted in government after government – or at least voted for some of them. This makes you to some extent morally responsble for the failures of these governments (at least the ones you voted for).
If you’re not morally culpable and noone else is either, then who is? God?
Isn’t intervention the ultimate in welfarism and victimology? After all, the presumption of the intervention is that we know how to fix the problems and they don’t, so we’ll look after it (welfarism); and rescuing children from abuse (victimology).
200 years of damage to a society cannot be undone in a few decades. Aboriginal society – which, as I’ve pointed out before, is really a number of quite different cultures we whack under the one label for our own convenience – has been effectively destroyed. To be rebuilt, we have to be prepared to give Aboriginal people responsibility for their own lives. This means they will make mistakes, of course it does, that’s part of learning. We have to resist the impulse to do it all for them and let them work it out for themselves.
259
Agree,Jen, and let’s not forget those who worked so hard but didn’t live to see this wonderful day……the late Peter Andren, that wonderful Independent for Calare and also the late Ron Wilson.
So many good souls have done the footwork to make this a fairer society with no personal gain in the offing.
My head will rest easier tonight.
Showson
SBS did GR as part of “who do you think you are” series-the seminal moment was when he stood with the laird of his ancestral area/home and decried the conditions that his ancestors had to endure whilst living in scotland and then on the ship that transported them to OZ-truly horrible conditions both in the hovel that was his ggparents and the ship/hulk .
the laird stood uncomprehendingly that they(GR”S gg parents) had suffered. therin is the nub of the problem
ps i think GR is headed for the Hague, though would be outstanding choice for president in any case
Thank you Mr Rudd. A true statesman and a truly moral leader, you have made me feel… what’s that strange emotion? I can barely recall. Could it be… national pride?
So who of us writing here are black?
I work with a large group of non-indigenous people who themselves work in indigenous communities as teachers. It takes them years to click to the issues, if they dont leave beforehand.
The problem is that just like many correspondence here they dont really understand because they come from our white culture. I have worked with indigenous people for many years and still lack an understanding of what it is to be them.
I believe that while we can engage in the petty arguments of being sorry or being practical there are very few non-indigenous people who really get it.
Should we be sorry for past actions? I believe we should. However my gut feeling about today is that it did more to appease our feelings of guilt than anything else.
Brendan Nelson tried to make mainstream Australia feel better about it self today.
I am disappointed with the discussion here, it is so distant from the truth.
We cannot live as a true community until the crap is expunged. How does that happen? It happens when we realise life presents us all with challenges that exist beyond politics.
I cannot appreciate truly what happened today but I am able to say I hope it is the beginning of bringing us all together and we drop the petty discussion.
A great day.
For the first people, for those of us who arrived, took, finally have given something back. The new look Parliament, including handshakes, a walk together of the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. A mutual enjoining to a future, a work in progress for our first people.
My congratulations, Kevin. Heartening to see all the people in the Chamber, the Hall, the lawns, over Australia. Tearful, happy, a start. The Speaker, not draped in that weird and somewhat scarey black outfit. The Parliament being opened by people, in ordinary garb and especially by our first people.
Brendan Nelson. His first and only chance for his finest day. Ruined, by his hope of gaining the support of his colleagues, in pursuit of his continued leadership of the Liberal Party, and those who vote Liberal. This is a dreadful mistake on his part. Rather than fully participating, he allowed himself to be demeaned, and therefore demeaned his own.
A stand needed to be taken, once and for all. This catering to those who cherish views that have no credence does him no good. His party will know that he can be manipulated, that he is now a creature of their various wills.
Brendan will need every moral fibre to participate in Kevin’s invitation, as he will be lead to the good and principled, against members of his party.
He may as well have started with a bang. Opportunity lost. Missed it, he will find.
Interesting too, that not only John Howard did not attend, neither did Noel Pearson. Is Noel so fixated on his Howard years?
I’m sorry I missed it. I first heard about Robertson from reading his book The Justice Game. It made me sit up and realise the day to day battles that lawyers of good will face to defend what we should all consider fundamental rights. He is someone I greatly admire, who I hope eventually becomes Australia’s Head of State. As I understand it he is a self confessed Republican, so it would be best for him to become our President, rather than Govenor General.
The next Govenor General will probably be our last, and I personally think it should be a woman.
His article in The Australian is worth a read:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23196221-28737,00.html
He tries to adopt something of a conservative stance by saying that the apology will lead to a sense of victim hood. But if you make it to the end of his article you find that he supported an apology, provided it came with monetary compensation.
I honestly believe he had good will towards both sides of the debate, but it is ironic that his end stance was among the most radical, that an apology without compensation wouldn’t be an apology at all.
To Crikey Whitey
“Interesting too, that not only John Howard did not attend, neither did Noel Pearson. Is Noel so fixated on his Howard years?”
The fact Noel Pearson did not attend is surely a matter for him. Just as it is for anyone else who was not physically present.
Why would you see fit to denigrate an Aboriginal activist because he expresses his views?
No group is homogeneous in view but his view is better informed than ours
268.
So well said….and so say all of us….
It was the warmth that shone through which will stay with me,the sheer good-will shown.
Am impressed at how Kevin has managed to change the mood of this nation in such a short time and I think that Nelson will rue today as/if he reflects.
The churlishness by those who snubbed this event will be noted in years to come. Small men.
And another notable absentee, citing work reasons, was Sue Gordon.
And of course, The West has to throw in a bit of subtle racism in how Schools should mark the event.
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=58285
Colin. I would guess most people posting here would not be First Folk. Nevertheless, many of us are passionate about what happens to our fellow humans. Is that O.K. with you?
Colin, i agree with you totally, today was pure tokenism.
It was as Mungo Macallum pointed out a manifesto gone mad. Instead of pure gestures action is required.
I would start by doing a complete audit of all aboriginal communities in this country to gauge all the problems, in the meantime i would do what we do with money for superannuation for public servants- set up a trust fund with a couple of billion and use this money solely for dealing with the problems which an audit obtains. Instead of this willy nilly approach of housing and throwing money around it is time to organise all the problems and go from their.
I can see the States and Commonwealth getting into bed with bureacrats and wasting money again. It is time to do it properly- simple.
Colin
Np has expressesd his view over the years according to the circumstances.
as you correctly stated he is an Aboriginal activist. and a good one at that.
most whitefellas dont understand that that you can be a blackfella and have a divergent view-comes from only a couple thousand years of culture v 70000+ years of wisdom.as part of the healing acknowledgement is but the first step.
“none so blind as those that wont see”
Notwithstanding that I have yet to read that article, ShowsOn, I have long had a feeling that Noel Pearson became captive to a certain idea, heavily influenced by one JWH.
It is almost that Noel assumes the mantle passed, of guilt and responsibility.
Certainly his intention of improving his people’s lot is impeccable. He embraces education, work, enhanced chances in life. Growth and the imperative sense of self worth.
Reparation, in whatever form, is necessary, in my view. And part of the recommendations.
But it is strange to me, that a person whose cause is advancement of his people, would not have lead on this momentous occasion.
As a whitey, simple question why isn’t our indigenous minister an aborigine? Having a white person dealing with such problems is ridiclous.
As a whitey, simple question why isn’t our indigenous minister an aborigine? Having a white person dealing with such problems is ridiclous.]
Perhaps the reason is that there are currently no Indigineous federal members of the Govt ?
I understand the situation, but realistically white people making decisions on behalf of black people should not be occurring- i hope Macklin has some advisors who are from the indigenous community.
Nonetheless as i said it is time that a complete analysis was done of all the problems and from what i see one of main ones is employment and this issue must be addressed.
Oh yes, Frank Calabrese.
Another person, Sue Gordon. Whose views, judgement and affiliations I find a little disturbing.
Co-opted comes to mind.
Suits a person, such as JWH, who looked for those in their own people whose views happened to support his own.
A feeling that they are at fault, perhaps?
Marky
elevation and appointment on merit is the sole recourse for a democracy staying a democracy
otherwise -by definition it aint a democracy
whether Oz is a mature democracy is another question!
Dolly’s about to jump ship and work for Natasha Stott-Despoja’s Husband.
http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=459306
To “Harry ;Snapper” Organs”
Dear Harry
I adore passion!
The point I was trying to make was that we need all ( I include myself here) to be circumspect on issues we dont fully comprehend, and this is a biggy.
Sure we can be passionate on reconciliation, practical measures, the apology.
The point is be so passionate we put ourselves in indigenous people’s position and see their view. It is not one, just as any group view on a significant issue will differ.
But however passionate we are we all have to acknowledge we have different experiences and need to be careful our passion does not replace recognition of different experiences.
No matter what anyone says indigenous Australians have experiences we cannot comprehend.
Just as individual indigenous people have their personal history that cannot be stereotyped.
No 268
I suspect the Aborigines would have frowned upon Nelson regardless of his position.
I think Kevin Rudd is to be commended for his actions today. Today is an historic time in our nation’s history.
I just wonder if Paul Keating had been given this opportunity we would have had a speech commensurate with the Gettysburg Address?
No 286
Oh please, colin. Paul Keating is a shameful blemish on this nation’s history.
I listened to Australia Talks, Wednesday evening.
A caller posed the question of what she, us, could do as our effort in reconciliation.
She had participated in one of the public events, but felt she had not been able to include herself, in a way which would have been, oh, I don’t know, she may have meant meaningfully.
I don’t know that anyone responded, as a phone call came in, but I did think that if any of those who are not personally acquainted with an aboriginal person, that we should do so, in whatever way that can be managed.
To live in a person’s life makes it real to us, and we see that they are the same.
It is the weird estrangement, a part of our old, pattern of culture, which creates problems of misunderstanding.
Apologies for slow clearance of comments from moderation.
To Generic Person
Paul Keating had his failings but as an orator and social activist I think he was OK.
I may be mistaken but I think he made a speech at Redfern that had elements repeated today 14 years later,
GP
I agree Brendan Nelson was behind the eight ball. However he could have beena Statesman!
Can’t Downer be placed on a banned lobbyist list a la Brian Bourke on account of… on account of.. .well,on account of just being Downer, a pompous, scheming, toadying, obfuscating, puncing prat.
No 297
It’s not that simple, especially given the apprehensiveness he faced within the party.
No 298
Alexander Downer was an upstanding Foreign Minister. Your account is totally inaccurate, Mr Sammut.
No 299
Nothing is simple but he is the leader, as was howard, he could have been a leader, a statesman, I wonder what Turnball would have said.
Now I know you’re taking the piss Generic Oracle! But I must acknowledge you put up an excellent rear guard action.
Fulvio Sammut
No, they all believe it
No 303
Of course I believe it. Mr Downer is a far superior foreign minister than his successor, the ghastly Stephen Smith.
why is Stepehen Smith ghastly?
Stop it, my sides are aching! Thank you all for a lively, thoughtful and most of all, hilarious evening. Hope to join you tomorrow. Night.
Dull, inexperienced and completely ignorant of world affairs.
But I must acknowledge you put up an excellent rear guard action. ?
An apology was not warranted !
Its all Gough’s fault DESPITE 18 subsequent years of Liberal Government !
All the “Howardism’ supporter demonstrated was speed with the typo
What we have is the reality of today
Our PM has given a justified apology for the past which the aboriginal Leaders have joyously accepted AND he has given a practical plan for the future to diminish Aboriginal disadvantage
The PM has set a course which as of today the vast majority of black & white Australians support.
We will NEVER convince the minority of rusted on Howardism supporters.
Democracy gives such minority groups to object.
Democracy gives the majority the right , having failed to persuade them , to then ignore them , move on and try to achieve the blue print Rudd set out ?
how do you know his ignorant of world affairs?
Kind of like your approaches to human rights and international relations.
ShowsOn, I’d be advocating for your extradition to Saudi Arabia where you can experience a taste of Sharia law. Then, we may discuss human rights.
what proof do u have Showson is a Saudi?
A great day…now let’s press on to the issue of having an Australian as Head of State…Vive La Republique !
So downer is what we need!
As i said they believe their own drivel
maybe its too late at night to be asking difficult questions
No 313
So long as Queen Elizabeth II remains the monarch, I have no issue with a constitutional monarchy.
However, any transition to a republic in the future must not result in an American-style presidential system.
well atleast i can agree with you there
Easy , Ron. You don’t have to agree with the message (and I wholeheartedly don’t), to appreciate the style and ease with which it’s delivered. Generic Oracle, like many others on this site such as Greensborough Growler, Kirribilli Removalist, Adam and dare I say Edward St John, have a certain mastery over the English language, a quick wit, an ability to change tack imperceptibly, and an ease of expression which makes them very readable, even though you may sometimes choke on their views, and I’ve certainly had cause to choke tonight on Generic Oracle’s.
I may be sounding like a pompous prat myself, but I believe in respecting and acknowledging the strengths of the opposition where they are manifested.To fail to appreciate those strengths leaves you more vulnerable in opposing them.
Now I really must go off to bed.
Why thankyou, Mr Sammut.
I bid you happy choking in the future.
Bring on the republic NOW!
Anyone remember Beazley’s first budget reply, where he repeated “Downer must go” about a dozen times?
I can’t remember all of Downer’s ineptitudes at the time, but they included leaving top secret briefing papers resting on a lectern.
He was judged then by almost everybody as totally inept (I don’t think he got much better, it was more that people became inurred).
I did like his line on Lateline the other night, talking about the rebel leader in Timor, which went something like this: “He doesn’t have as much support as people think he has. His following is actually quite small. It’s not a big following at all. So he doesn’t have much support at all, it’s actually quite small.”
I suppose you have to repeat things and avoid big words when you’re talking to ignorant foreigners all the time.
I sat opposite Downer on a flight from Sydney to Adelaide. Qantas business class, since you ask. He merrily left open envelopes marked Top Secret on his foldout table. He even left his Blackberry on his armrest when he went to the loo !
Pity my wife restrained me from pinching them. I was sorely tempted.
Still, we had a pleasant chat when disembarking so he’s not all bad.
(Dead set true story. October 2006)
Come now, don’t tell me Downer is not the laughing stock amongst other foreign affairs ministers. I can here them all now, “here comes that baffoon from Australia. The one who supported pre emtive strikes in his own country, if it was called for, like bombing Darwin if suspicion warented it;” the idiot!
More importantly yesterday was the proudest moment for me in Australia in my lifetime (39 years). These empathic and moving speeches marked a new era of maturity and cooperation. Long live the 42nd parliament.
300
Generic Person @ 300
“Alexander Downer was an upstanding Foreign Minister. ”
LOL
Downer, through his sheer incompetence, is nearly as responsible for the destruction of East Timor as the Indonesian government and military (TNI).
As FM he was as responsible for getting us into the Iraq fiasco as JWH.
As usual, he was slow to act in getting our citizens out of Lebanon when Israel attacked that country in 2006 leaving them in danger for over a week in very difficult conditions while other countries got their citizens out within days.
He oversaw the one sided FTA agreement with the US which allowed them to export product to us without restriction immediately, while our main exporters to the US, farmers, have on their major items to wait until well into the next decade for the same rights.
And lets not forget that he repeatedly ignored warning that the AWB was bribing a foreign dictator that we would soon be at war with.
On the score of Alexander the not-so-Great . . . he’s going and so’s Peter McGauran:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23211257-2,00.html
Yay! Bring on the byelections . . .
324
MayoFeral
Too well said to top, Mayo, and Peter McGauran as well!
Not only did the voters thin the ranks last November, but the remaining rats are jumping ship at an alarming rate.
Poor Horatio Hornet, the long night of irrelevance is descending rapidly, and of course he helped it along ‘admirably’ (pun intended) with his disgraceful performance yesterday.
God, isn’t it wonderful to watch Rudd (oh, he’s only ‘me too’!!) sieze the agenda and take the country with him?
So, Dolly’s packing his stockings and going home eh? Well, what a surprise, and another who will not be missed, not one tiny iota.
GP: Let’s not obfuscate Howard and Downer’s abysmal legacy to the Australian people.
They will be remembered as the sheep that followed the US into an illegal war, failed to spot the AWB scandal and achieved nothing but diminishing Australia’s reputation in both Asia and the world.
Their legacy will be the political oblivion of the liberal party and history will not mark them kindly.
Delighfully headlined, Annabel Crabb writes about yesterday’s man:
“Ouch, said the man who wasn’t there”
…an amusing and insightful read as usual:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/annabel-crabb/2008/02/13/1202760396146.html
“If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away” – Henry David Thoreau.
This has been a very disappointing thread as it has been over indulged with derision and a lack of respect for any diversity of opinion (evidenced, for example, in many of the responses to GP’s posts). I share the host’s concern about a lack of ‘balance’ on the comments columns he makes available on this excellent website. Those who think they know better (the author of Post 102 for instance) really don’t understand at all.
Happy Valentine’s Day to those who care.
Not sure if this has already been canvassed but ABC Radio National has descended into the category of hopeless joke. Fran Kelly’s breakfast programme should come with a warning that it is written and authorised by the Liberal Party. I guess this is a carry over from her partisan activity during the election. Today she had Mal Brough on, the people of his electorate made clear what they thought of him. The number of coaliton guests is outrageous, could be that the ALP are boycotting her?
330
StanS
Funny, but I was thinking something similar after hearing a long ‘interview’ (ie he gets to rabbit on!) with Tony Mad Monk Abbott.
Ah, hello? ABC? Is this being ‘balanced’? Oh, yeah, Rudd got a whole day yesterday, plus and entire nation to himself, so today we get to hear Abbott drone on about how wonderful Brendon is?
Give me a friggin’ break! Let these hasbeens sink into oblivion for a few years and stop being so bleeding deferential to these freaks who still think they are important enough to clog up the airwaves.
Enough. They had 11 years, and we are mightily sick unto death of their miserable self-importance.
Hopefully it won’t be too long that all Liberals and their supporters realise that they are an irrelevance today. Howard and Brough are gone. Costello, Downer, Vaile, and Ruddock will soon be in the dustbin of history, forgotten and not forgiven. Maybe Abbott will follow soon because judging by his comments on AM this morning he is suffering dementia.
I’m not interested in balanced discussion about issues. Would we have a balanced discussion about the Holocaust? I’m not interested in the pathetic bleating of the likes of Generic Person and his/her ilk. Over the last 11 years the right-wing have pushed their vile agendas with the uncritical support of large sections of the media and now its over for them. They have brooked no opposition to their rantings, they have sneered at anyone holding contrary views, and they have corrupted public life. We should have had wholesale resignations from the Public Service, from the Reserve bank board, from the ABC board, from the SBS board and all the other institutions that Howard blatantly corrupted and now need purging.
Some of you just don’t get how enraged people like me have been during the last decade. Yesterday was the start of the long road back to decency in this country. I have never felt prouder when Kevin Rudd spoke for us all yesterday. Even Nelson’s miserable homily couldn’t ruin the day. To see the tears and th ejoy in so many faces was unforgettable. I hope they can forgive what was done to them because I can’t forgive those who delayed their joy for so long.
102
ShowsOn
All people’s views are validly expressed in an open society, but I agree with you wholeheartedly that they are not equal! LOL
If anyone wishes to muddy the waters with ‘good intentions’ then I suggest they stand alongside those ‘well intentioned’ people who supervised the gas ovens. By that argument, no act is morally wrong so long as the people doing it have bothered to convince themselves of its moral ‘rightness’.
That tens of thousands of children were just ripped from their mother’s arms is a crime against humanity, and was not done for any reason except the deeply racist belief that the ‘boongs’ were ‘a dying race’ and so we could knock up the gins and then take the half-castes away.
Brutal, violent and vicious.
Defending that on any notion that it was done with goodwill is as morally corrupted as the actions themselves.
PS And having Chris Toolman as the replacement for the excellent Jim Middleton in Canberra shows further partisanship of the ABC.
The ABC is woeful at the moment.
Last week watched a new science show obviously aimed at children screened at 8.00 pm on a weeknight. There are numerous examples of poor programming, and rubbish shows. Then yesterday it did not replay the apology for all those who were at work during it’s live broadcast (apparently you haver to buy it.) This is our national broadcaster that has been hijacked by conservatives wih a view to corporatising it.
Next job Mr Rudd – Sack the board put in by Howard, and start again.
StanS & KR
I think the prominance given to former minsiters on the ABC is less to do with partisanship and more to do with the ‘known’ factor i.e that the majority of the Australian public is aware who these people are. I think it will dull with time.
336
Yo ho ho
Good point, it’s like a dog returning to its vomit.
Maybe when it gets cold the attraction will wear off! LOL
(did I really just say that?!?!!?)
KR 336
THat is possibly the most disgusting (but apt) analogy possible. Well done!
Did Howard blow any slim chance he had of becoming a knight of the garter yesterday?
The knights of the garter is a select group of 24, originally chosen amongst its members but now handpicked by the monarch, this is not to say she would not consider the views of the group in selecting a new member.
Howards actions yesterday in refusing to attend reflect poorly on him, every other PM was there, yet in spite of Howards pronouncements of accepting the will of the people he has turned his back on them on such a momentous historic occassion.
Would the other knights want a person such as this in their select group, would the queen even think about it given the world coverage of yesterdays event and Howards petulant abscence noted.
And Downer leaving politics to set up a consultancy for businesses, that is surely a jest. The only future for him outside of politics would be promoting some obscure herbal treatment that aided the memory.
“Hi, do you remember me, no?, I was Australia’s longest serving foreign minister but I too had problems remembering things, at the AWB inquiry I answered 276 times , I do not recall, I cannot remember, but since leaving politics and taking a regular dose of stinkweed extract I can now recall what I had for breakfast, etc etc etc.
ABC news:
Nelson waiting for Rudd to apologise over speech snub
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/14/2162334.htm
What a prat. He wants Rudd to say sorry for his (Nelson’s) hurt feelings. If this is the best that the Liberal leadership can come up with to try and score a point then they are hopelessly lost. This must be their cunning plan: Try to get Rudd to respond with “Why should I apologise for the actions of my staffers?” and then attack him for the hypocrisy over the stolen generation’s apology.
They are so transparent and unprincipled.
This is the type of moronic crap that demonstrates you don’t care about human rights.
Steve K
Neslon waiting for an apology???????
After telling that aboriginal people that policies that were genocidal in intent were “well intentioned”??
‘Prat’ doesn’t come close.
Whether you agree with the sorry motion or not reflect on these points;
* It was done by government on behalf of a government which was elected by the people of Australia. The government apologises for the negative action of the previous government. The people have the right to support or object as in any election. Thats why there is an opposition.
* The practicalities of fixing the issues are more important and i believe that was well articulated in the speech yesterday. Saying sorry is just a small brick in the foundation of true reconciliation where aboriginal people are on an even keel with their white counterparts. Like a broken relationship you say sorry for the wrongs first and do the hard work later to fix the underlying problems.
* I believe the NT intervention is necessary and important. Welfare has done damage but it has helped some aboriginal people to go to university, buy houses and try to assist them. It has also enabled gambling, alcoholism, sexual abuse and domestic violence. But if welfare was not there do you think aboriginal people would have seriously had a chance? Somewhere along the line a government dropped the ball and truly it does not matter which one. All that matters is that we have a bipartisan approach to help fix complex issues.
*I am opposed to compensation. Compensation has underpinned the system of welfare for the past 25 years. It hasnt helped build a true aboriginal economy or functional society.
So in short its done, forget it if you dont like it, rejoice if you do. Next step is going to formulate a policy which gets aborginal children attending school, their parents off the grog and truly operating civic communities.
Luckily the bunch of left wing do gooders writing here don’t represent the majotrity of Australians who see things a little differently.
3 Labor PM’s ….3 grand Aboriginal Plans
Gough was the FIRST PM to allocate serious Federal monies to Aborigines
..but through a Canberra beauocracy
Hawke the FIRST PM 2 put serious Federal monies under Aborigines management
…but through ASTIC
Rudd the FIRST PM to put Aborigine policy under a joint two Party’s policy
..but through a Labor/Liberal joint Commission
Men who have vision because they have compassion & social ideals
to carry on our greatest PM (John Curtin’s) legacy of ‘the light on the hill’
and then we have Horatio concerned some employees turned their back
and then we have Andrew Bolt’s, Piers etc with their miserable view of humanity
and which path would one wish our children to follow ?
I don’t object to GP’s airing his views or anyone else doing so – I object to his inability to mount a well reasoned, consistent and substantiated argument.
I’m constantly disappointed about the Right’s inability to do this. Before I started blogging, I assumed that the Right (being the ‘rational’ logic at all costs end of the political extreme) had sound reasons for their various positions, and I was interested in finding out what they were.
Instead, my experience has been that those who defend the Right’s position nearly always do so on purely ideological, kneejerk, emotion-driven grounds. They tend to adopt a slogan as the truth without questioning and are thus unable to defend their position when questioned.
I’m genuinely open minded and – as past postings have shown – am willing to admit when I am wrong.
I await for a member of the Right to mount a well reasoned, logical, substantiated argument to support ANY position, from the benefits of AWA through to whether or not the government of Australia should apologise.
It hasn’t happened yet, and I’m not holding my breath. I’m disappointed, however; I would have genuinely understand where they’re coming from.
I think the dearth of Right wingers on blogs such as this is for this reason: they don’t like their beliefs being questioned, and they can’t defend them when they are.
What?
Dolly Downer is going into the lobbying business?
I thought he’d secured a place on the AWB Board, where ‘not remembering’ or ‘not noticing’ is high on the list of qualifications required.
342
Jen
When crowds, in Canberra and Melbourne, stood up and turned their backs on Brendon Nelson, it’s a bit more than the act of a ‘prat’ to ask for a mere two of them to apologise!
Oh, that’s right, ’symbolism’ doesn’t matter, except when it’s applied to themselves!
Miserable little worm complains of the ‘rudeness’! How dare he!
For the almost final word on the apology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kij2UrQxEEc
There it is!…thats the “line of the day”
classic
What would Stan Zemanek have made of all this? If we could bring him back, it would kill him all over again.
The apology does two things:
1) It is a starting point to practical reconciliation, which does not include the near martial law imposed by Howard, done to appease a group of knuckle dragging, mouth breathing bigots whose votes he already had and was never going to lose.
2) It is a challenge to those Aboriginals who feel so slighted to actually make some positive moves for themselves and stop moping and whining. This thing cuts both ways.
The real pleasure of this event, at least for clear thinking whites and 99% of blacks is that Howard, by his miserable behavior, has absolutely consigned himself to the gutter of history. Only the Windshuttles of this world can save him and no one is going to believe them anyway. Thank God for technology.
Can anyone believe that the Coalition parties have today blocked Labor’s attempt to abolish AWAs from today?
They are sending the bill to a Senate committee so they can allow business to make more AWAs until April.
They can’t get over the fact they lost the last election.
Bring on the Double Dissolution.
343
zoom Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I don’t object to GP’s airing his views or anyone else doing so – I object to his inability to mount a well reasoned, consistent and substantiated argument.
I’m constantly disappointed about the Right’s inability to do this
zoom ,
you are not alone my friend and you give your thoughts on this theory
Labor’s philosophy was partly based on
social justice , workers conditions , Curtin’s “light on the hill” and socialism
Menzies the Liberal’s founder philosophy was partly based on
free enterprise & freedom of the individual whose genisis is anti socialism &
anti unionism & by definition parlty anti working conditions vs capital’s profit share
So workchoices WAS consistent with Liberal philosophy !
What has changed for the ‘right’ & left them with problems in debate is the above Liberal philosphy of Menzies has NOT changed.
But the Labor philosophy HAS changed by repudiating socialism & accepting a free market economy subject to delivering fair social outcomes
ie. Labor has maintained its basic philosophy but have added economic realism to it by taking the sensible economic portion of Menzies philosphy and making it socially & equitably responsible
and for the Liberals , the Labor’s socialism & anti business negatives have disappeared into thin ! , so they are left with ’slogans
BUT “dry” conservatism without
either an equity or social justice base with little to defend themselves with
any ideas ?
I do try and avoid labels, because they obscure the diverse range of views an individual can have, so please bear that in mind with the following:
I wonder whether the problem is that really the far Right are conservatives, rather than liberal in any sense of the word.
Conservatives bat for society’s successes, valuing bosses over workers, the haves over the have nots (economic Darwinism).
Liberals bat for individual freedoms – I think Adam Smith basically said that it’s OK to do what you want UNLESS it interferes with the rights of others to do what they want.
AWAs look like they value the freedom of the individual to choose, but because they do not take into account the inbalance in power between the (average) worker and their boss, the end result in most cases is that AWAs in fact remove individual freedoms.
Ironically, bargaining from a collective position is actually more likely to result in an individual getting what they want then they can bargaining individually.
Classic economists (Ricardo et al) argue that workers should be regarded as a unit of production and receive only enough to live on and to reproduce potential workers.
The inherent clash between these two mindsets of conservatism – individual rights v. workers as units of production – explain much of the incoherence of modern right wing argument.
Here’s just one of very many positive comments about yesterday’s apology to our indigineous people:
12.February 13th,
2008
4:20 pm Wow, first he signs Australia up for the Kyoto Protocol, and now he’s making a long-due apology to the aboriginees plus plans to improve their lives–I really like this Mr. Rudd! And he’s done all of this within a month of taking office… Maybe it’s time to move to Australia, where they have a government you can actually believe in.
— Posted by Su
…and it’s on the NYTimes:
http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/removing-the-stain-on-australias-soul/?hp
With friends like this who needs enemies? Tony Abbott has described John Howard as “the best PM for aborigines”.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/howard-best-pm-for-aborigines-abbott/2008/02/14/1202760448673.html
Now thats people skills! Maybe it would have been true if Aboriginals owned most of the shares in Australian mining companies. Not otherwise.
Having all but lost any vestige of relevance, Miranda Devine takes one more swipe:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/miranda-devine/rudd-fans-the-flames-of-the-culture-wars/2008/02/13/1202760395468.html
…in brief:
If some Aborginal kids were being abused and were ‘taken away’ for their own good, then why should we apologise to the rest who were simply taken away because it was the policy?
As usual, she slams the ‘cultural warriors’ on the left, while being the harridan warrior of the vanquished right.
Another appalling bit of tripe, wrapped in her moral outrage, and masquerading as some kind of reason not to say sorry to people who have had more pain than any of us have ever been asked to endure.
I’m sorrry that Miranda Devine lost her humanity too, but that won’t bring it back!
355
Socrates
Do we detect Abbott getting ready to catch the pile of steaming brown stuff that’s about to hit the fan? You know, Horatio Hornet’s great ‘leadership’?
Now that Nelson has been wedged on ’sorry’, the rabid right just want to rip his head off, and good old Tone is putting on the Howard cape.
Urk, he’s a creeepy little creature.
re the Opposition’s leadership.
Who cares?
I wonder if Nick Minchin will contest Mayo, and parachute into the Reps.
Just how many by-elections are in the offing? Gippsland and Mayo. Higgins too? Maybe Lyne. Hopefully Macarthur, if there’s any justice in the world. Pat Farmer’s got his parliamentary pension lined up, so now he can put his feet up in Mosman and invite Bronwyn Bishop round for tea and scones.
I wouldn’t put it past the Libs to ’steal’ Gippsland (and Lyne too) from the Nats.
P.S. If there is a rash of by-elections, could Labor use the opportunity to carve out a third seat in the ACT and hold a by-election there? Or is it too soon?
Did anyone else pick up from TJ’s interview with the mad monk that he’s still consulting Howard? That’s right – he admitted it.
I’ve been waiting for the press to ask Nelson the same question, or whether he approves of his ministers consulting the ex-pm…..
I can just see the shadow cabinet, ‘no Brendan, John said we should…..’
Here here zoom – it’s not the ideas of GP I most strongly object to, it’s the Neo-con world of language he retreats into when questioned on the principle of his points of view. Is the juxtaposition between liberal and conservative not obvious enough? It’s crazy that they can’t see their base tenets diverging and that they think they still have to pick one or the other and prove it through extremism.
There ya go again KR! Now you’re plagiarising JESUS with the dog and vomit thing. ESJ will be very upset!
Ron @ 342, I believe the ‘light on the hill’ speech (also nicked from Jesus! You’re in great company KR) was given by dear Ben Chifley
An interesting summation. Nevertheless, I believe you are incorrectly interchanginig “classical economist” with “modern conservative”. I am not one who subscribes the Marxist exploitation theory, given that its underlying assumption of value, first developed by David Ricardo, is complete nonsense. For example, suppose I use the same materials that Leonardo da Vinici used to produce the Mona Lisa and expended the same time and effort to produce a picture of cow dung, according to the Marxists my art work is of equal value to the Mona Lisa painting.
An alternative account of value is the ’subjective theory of value’ as expressed by Carl Menger, von Böhm-Bawerk and Mises et al. That the value of something is merely it’s price as valued by the market, a market is made up of individuals who all have their own subjective ideas about the worth of things. Once one dismisses the Labour Theory of value any notion of exploitative “unit of production” simply falls away.
No 349
Australian Workplace Agreements have been a central tenet of workplace reform since the first WRA in 1996.
It is simply a furphy to argue that Labor have a mandate to abolish AWAs altogether. Arguably, they have a mandate to roll them back to pre-Workchoices standards.
you mean when only 1% of the working population were on one?
Get rid of them, they don’t offer anything that can’t be arranged via a common law contract.
I admit GP that I am talking very broad brush and with little knowledge of the theory.
What I am trying to come to grips with is the definite schism within the Right between those who advocate for individual choice and freedom and those who see conservatism as limiting these (sometimes, interestingly, the same individual will profess to uphold both of these differing philosophical approaches simultaneously).
It is difficult to explain otherwise how the party which supposedly values the right of the individual to make their own choices is also the party which opposes euthanasia and abortion.
GP @ 361, the link provides the text of Kevin Rudd’s campaign launch speech.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22758200-5013650,00.html
Pay particular attention to the following:
“If elected, we will abolish WorkChoices. If elected, we will abolish AWAs. And if elected, we will ensure flexibility and fairness at work.”
A few points.
While I wasn’t that impressed with nelson’s speech I felt it very rude for people to have turned their backs, if he was Howard I can understand but Nelson is not howard.
In defend of Nelson’s speech I felt his meantion of Senator Bonner was extremely interesting, but I couldn’t help but think would Senator Bonner be elected today
The Liberals delaying the stopping of new AWA’s is short sighted politics and shows that the Liberal Party are in more trouble than maybe we realised.
Some have said the 13th Feb should become a new Australia Day, while I felt that would be a nice Idea I feel November 11th has a stronger claim for it’s the day of the Eureka Stockade a day which helped change the way this Country operates.
Some write about the Welfare culture that has plagued Aborginal people, we due respect that highlights a general failure of Government policy that also impacts on the Disability community, but instead of dealing with the condition we tend to blame the symptoms.
I am fast becoming very impressed with PM Rudd, when it comes to Nelson and I note no one as mentioned it but their was a moment in Question Time when Nelson made a comment that struck me as very negaitive, it was when Russ answered a question and made a point abour a bi-partisen approach and Nelson stood up and said “Yes we are happy to help” from his tone it was like he was saying ‘what ever’
No 363
But, as you well know zoom, parties are made up of people who hold generally similar views – but that does not preclude diverse opinion.
The Labor party itself accepted much of the economic rationalist theory throughout the 1980s, much to the despair of the union movement.
First I should have checked my grammer in previous post.
Second the ALP have a clear mandate to abolish AWA’s after all the central issue last November was workplace relations.
I’m not denying that Labor (and the Left) has its own inconsistencies, but would suggest that the rift isn’t one of underlying philosophies.
Whereas there isn’t any middle ground between advocating individual freedoms and curtailing them simultaneously. There’s just no way you can present a coherent narrative whilst doing that.
Yes, but if your implication is that Left does not do that, then you are quite clearly incorrect.
The moves by Senator Conroy in January to impose mandatory censorship of the Internet is a despicable act to limit individual freedoms.
In the end, both parties are home to diverse and often contradictory opinions. That is the nature of politics.
Um, no. With the cooperation of Bill Kelty at the ACTU.
Go read some political history.
We happen to be a country where the social democratic party gave the country a market economy. The other side continued the flawed policies of protectionism into the 1980s, without the political or intellectual ability to fix our economic problems.
What do you know about individual freedoms, you don’t even believe in universal human rights.
360
Ferny, I think you’ll find it’s Proverbs:
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
(kinda sums up a certain poster’s need to keep flogging long lost arguments really! LOL)
Light on the hill, yep, that’s how I felt about Rudd, he turned on the switch again.
Anyone else see Possum’s piece in Crikey today?
A rip snorter!
No 370
It was John Howard who commissioned the Campbell report that argued for the deregulation of financial markets. Yes, Keatinig implemented it, but it was not an idea he originally derived.
I must say I have noticed what Zoom is referring too within hardened conservatives. Just yesterday I was talking to a member of my family (who is a firm supporter of the Liberal Party) about the US elections. I mentioned McCain’s stance on Iran and the conversation quickly changed to human rights in many Islamic countries, in particular the rights of women. She argued that the women are oppressed and treated horribly, and she asked the rhetorical question “what can we do about it?”. My reply was that there isn’t a lot that we can do about it, as culturally that is their beliefs, and if we are to force our way of life on them based on our morals they will resist to the very last. Her reply was that it doesn’t matter since their beliefs infringe on other people in cruel ways and cannot possibly be be thought of as correct.
Eventually, discussion moved on to Kevin Rudd’s Apology and she argued that we should not judge the people who brought about the forced removal of children of the Stolen Generations as culturally, it was believed that that was the right thing to do at that time. It didn’t seem to occur to her that the two stances on two different situations were completely contradictory.
No but feel free to post it. It won’t open for me on the webpage.
And did absolutely nothing about it because he was a gutless and failed treasurer who couldn’t whip the agrarian socialists in the country party into line.
Moreover, we didn’t even need a report. It was completely obvious what was wrong with our protected and over regulated economy. Commissioning the report was just a further waste of time so that Howard could say he was doing something when he actually wasn’t.
366
BMWofVictoria
See Possum’s post in Crikey today, it throws a bit of light on poor old Horatio Hornet’s dilemma and how Rudd saved his bacon.
As for public displays, well, the public has its own mind, and if anyone didn’t like what they did, then perhaps the question is why did they feel so strongly to act spontaneously as one?
Clearly they didn’t like what they heard, thought it an insult to the meaning of the day, and said so, passively but demonstrably.
I was very proud of their passion and conviction, when they knew what was ‘right’ and what was ‘wrong’. Horatio was just so compromised that he failed to understand that he could not cross that line, not then, not with everyone alert to the slightest bit of ungracious scumbuggery.
He crossed that line.
Here’s Possum’s article, it will no doubt be up on his site tomorrow:
How Rudd saved Nelson from the Coalition of the Irreconcilable
Possum Comitatus writes:
Yesterday an extraordinary thing happened, in public, in Parliament, live on national television – but it wasn’t the apology to the Stolen Generation (although, that too was quite the moment). Nor was it the deranged escapades of Chris Pearce, the Member for Aston, who found the need to demonstrate his displeasure at the profound proceedings unfolding before him by ignoring events and spending his time flicking through some magazine that we can only surmise wasn’t the latest edition of The Art of Healing .
No – yesterday, Kevin Rudd rescued Brendan Nelson the person from being suffocated under the polarising burden of being Brendan Nelson the Leader of the Coalition.
And a Coalition it truly is, a Coalition of the irreconcilable.
In highly charged, highly emotional moments of national importance like yesterday, moments that become headlines rather than footnotes in our national history, unity, political unity, or at the very least a well constructed façade of national unity is the necessary ingredient that makes the difference between an event being one of momentous celebration, or becoming one which leaves a potentially bitter after-taste.
With the Coalition descending back into its natural state of internal ideological conflict now that the artificial glue of government power has been removed, the chances of Brendan Nelson ever producing a response to Rudd’s speech that not only reconciled the views of those like Sophie Mirabella with the views of people like Petro Georgio, but also didn’t sound like a “yes, an apology BUT” moment that cuddled up to a Howard legacy that half of the Liberal Party would prefer to forget, were remote — especially since Nelson owes his leadership to the apology naysayers.
Nelson was left delivering a camel of a speech in Parliament, forced by petty internal party politics to say things which he knew would spoil the moment, things he did not believe, things that would likely leave a bitter political legacy for the future. He knew well that it would be “these things” for which Brendan Nelson would always be remembered when those of tomorrow look back to yesterday’s moment in history.
When the time came to deliver his camel, Brendan Nelson had the look of a man that, as one wit put it, “suddenly realised that he had chosen the wrong party”, and would now be forever burdened as the name behind a speech whose contents were not reflective of Brendan Nelson the person, but simply reflective of the cancerous political dynamics of the Coalition itself.
The public reaction to his speech was probably not that different to how Nelson himself would have reacted were he not a Member of Parliament and found himself listening to those very words on the lawns of Canberra with thousands of others.
Just when Nelson probably thought it couldn’t get any worse, when he’d accepted his inevitable fate of historical villain, Rudd delivered him a lifeline. Not only a lifeline that would forever have the effect of boosting those parts of Nelson’s speech that apologised and downplayed the list of caveats that accompanied it, not only a lifeline that created a media friendly image of national political unity as the two leaders stood together on the same side of the chamber presenting a gift to the House from the representatives of the Stolen Generation, but a lifeline that saved Brendan Nelson personally from shouldering the historical burden of being the spoiler, a spoiling role that more reflected the Coalition’s political dysfunction than any views that Brendan Nelson himself might have had, but could not say.
It’s hardly any wonder that of all the political players involved in yesterday’s proceedings, it was Nelson that looked the most emotional, particularly when he greeted the Stolen Generation members.
The three great images to come from yesterday were Rudd saying sorry, the standing ovation, and the presentation of a coolamon to the Speaker. Rudd threw Nelson a lifeline by deliberately bringing his political opponent centre stage into the symbolism of that last moment, guaranteeing that the historical narrative over yesterday’s event will be far kinder to Nelson than even he thinks he probably deserved.
We can only hope Nelson learned a lesson in political leadership yesterday – partisan politics has limits. But even if he didn’t, he certainly owes Rudd a beer.
No 376
Malcolm Fraser had the overwhelming authority in the cabinet, even if Howard believed the recommendations of the Campbell report should be implemented.
At the end of the day, the Coalition supported the reforms when Keating implemented them. The ALP subsequently opposed everything when the Coalition was last in government. The once-dubbed “fundamental injustice day” has become the endless revenue stream for which the state governments have always dreamed. Kevin Rudd is aptly silent on this issue now.
Hi Kirribilli -
I read Possum’s Crikey piece today and he hit the nail on the head.
Rudd has been magnanimous towards his opponents. Same cannot be said for them yesterday ; particularly The Right Honorables (there’s irony for you), Wilson Tuckey, Sophie Mirrabella, Chris Pearce and the non-show John Winston Howard.
Thank God it’s over.
378 @ Kirribilli Removals
Thanks for posting Possums comments, I think the truism of Possums post is the line that Nelson may have realised that he was in the wrong party.
yesterday Kevin Rudd actually nailed Nelson for while Possum sees him as saving Nelson, I suspect what Rudd really did was show leadership and a true leader knows that sometimes it’s the little gestures that count the most
Exactly. Howard was a gutless Treasurer who couldn’t even get a policy position through cabinet, let alone parliament. I thank you for agreeing with me.
“At the end of the day” is the rhetoric you use for being unable to admit that the Hawke & Keating Labor governments modernised the Australian economy, NOT the Fraser government which did nothing.
that always happens to me with the first thingy on Crikeys page, I get around it by opening the comments bit and bingo!
anyways Possums got it up over on his site too
jen and BMW
Yeah, he cracked the code with that article, and really put Horatio’s effort into perspective.
My other favourite is:
“And a Coalition it truly is, a Coalition of the irreconcilable.”
It was a truly remarkable day in the nation’s life, and now that all the vanquished cultural wimps of the Howardista party are seen for what they truly are, small and nasty, we can move on.
Rudd did more than say sorry to people who have long deserved to hear it from the hall of the people, he stepped over the Lilliputians while keeping his gaze steadfastly on the future horizon.
Thanks.
“It was John Howard who commissioned the Campbell report that argued for the deregulation of financial markets”
Yes, but he didn’t act on it,
same as he didn’t act on the “stolen generations” report,
or the advice that the kids were not thrown overboard,
or the advice that Iraq didn’t have WMD,
or the advice that AWB were slinging Saddam kickbacks,
or the call from the states and the Anglican church for a Royal Commission into child abuse,
or the advice that Work Choices and AWAs would leave most workers worse off,
or that welfare for the rich was getting out of control.
My mum and dad call his type “gunnas”,
I’m gunna do this, I’m gunna do that, I have these really great ideas that I’m gunna do.
Howard is one of the big “gunnas”, managed 2 things in 11 years, the GST and Iraq and stuffed both.
Rudd is different, he says he will do something and quitely and effeciently does it.
Rudd is having a belter to be sure… I’m am however suddenly abit worried about Swan, he isn’t exactly dazzling in QT
383
BMWofVictoria
You’re both right in different ways. Rudd was magnanimous enough to extend a hand to Nelson who was literally up turd-creek without a paddle, but in the longer term, poor Horatio is sunk because the public will always remember him for being a nasty spoiler and looking very mean in comparison to Rudd.
All I can say is that he’d better start getting used to it!
And, yes, Horatio, watch your back, both Malcontented and the Mad Monk are waiting for you and the proverbial bus to share a common destiny.
One other thing “Gunna” Howard didn’t act on,
the 20 seperate pieces of advice from the Reserve Bank that inflation was getting out of control.
Good old Gunna did nothing and has left labor with a mess to fix as he did in ‘83.
389
Classified
I heard him yesterday and it was almost like he was in his first debating team and was a bit unclear about which team he was in, the Opposition or the Government.
He’s no natural, but he holds his ground, and he nailed the Member for North Sydney who wanted to bitch about the removal of AWA’s and it’s effect on inflation.
To paraphrase:
Swan: The member for North Sydney was recently trumpeting the fact that AWA’s had improved wages, but now he wants to claim that removing them will cause wages to rise. He’s trying to walk both sides of the street.
There was an appropriate amount of laughter from the government benches! LOL
Oh dear, more Kaka to hit the cooling device over Howard’s “OPEL” Consortium for Broadband in the Bush.
http://www.telstra.com.au/abouttelstra/media/announcements_article.cfm?ObjectID=41777
Yes Arbie the 20 warnings which the Liberals now want tabled, I for one have read may comments from the RBA talking about upward pressure on Interest Rates, the head of the RBA has also made several speeches including one to the Business Council where he talked about the issue.
Oh, the other thing Classified, Julia Gillard more than makes up any inadequacies in the Treasurer’s verbal dexterity.
She cuts to the chase and won’t even let mongerals like Iron Bar put her off with rabid interjections.
Gotta love her style.
Classified, I’d be much happier with Tanner as Treasurer. Maybe there’s a Queensland mafia happening. (Just joking).
Today, the Age said that Costello spent his time tapping on his laptop all through Rudd’s speech. If that’s true, he’s a disgrace. What are the odds that when he leaves Higgins, they’ll be an ALP candidate elected. Could be the same for McGauran’s seat, Gippsland.
I had to laugh at Wayne Swan for he did a little Costello which I note the Liberals interjected too as being out of order
Swan used terms like Arthur or Martha and voo doo maths.
Interesting listening to the Age’s Tony Wright on ABC radio this morning.
Apparently, Cossies flood of boardroom offers isn’t even a trickle. Despite the claims/speculation his phone hasn’t been ringing (perhaps in his new state of relative poverty he’s missed a payment or two and Telstra has cut it off!). So it seems he’s headed back to his old ‘Dollar Sweety’ trade representing assorted crooks, drug dealers and unscrupulous bosses before the bench.
McGuaran is off to the United Emirates or Honkers to race horses, and, as has already been mentioned, Dolly will become South Aussie’s Brian Burke.
So much for all the think tank offers.
Expect all three, plus possibly the Undead One to resign in April, though they are under a lot of pressure to hang around until after the Budget.
One further item, Wright, who has not exactly been a Rudd fan is now beginning to think he may become one of the great leaders.
maybe Cossie was looking at Seek.
“They seek they find”
Will Dolly be wearing one of Burkie’s Panama Hats along with the Fishnets ?
Which corporate entity would want Downer?
The guy who is proud that the AWB commission didn’t find him criminally culpable but merely grossly negligent.
I await a more indepth inquiry once Rudd has had a few months of fixing Howard’s more stupid errors.
No doubt Dolly will use his new Burke like powers to “Get things done” in DFAT, via his daughter – talk about jobs for the girls – getting a diplomat’s gig cos Daddy’s the Minister.
Look at their CVs from the point of view of a prospective employer…
Costello – will spend his whole time scheming to get your job and sneering at the clientele.
Downer – doesn’t know where he is, what he is doing there and can’t remember how he got there in the first place.
Ruddock – can’t sell you his soul, he’s already done that. Might make a good door stop but the decor’s a bit depressing.
Howard – whatever happened, he didn’t know about it and it wasn’t his fault. Keeps ringing the wife and family before he makes major decisions.
Brough – first thing you know, he’s sent a crack SAS squad into the factory and they’re standing with their guns pointing at the employees’ heads to make sure they’re doing the job properly. (This includes accompanying them on toilet breaks for their own protection and keeping part of their wages to make sure the money gets spent ‘properly’)
McGauran – amazed that he’s actually supposed to do something in return for the paycheck.
402 # zoom
I reckon based on those CV’s they could start their new careers with becoming the new management of my former Employer!
Zoom, very droll!
I liked the Brough one, very good
BMWofVictoria @ 398
“maybe Cossie was looking at Seek”
Well at least it’s cheaper than the taxpayer funded ’study’ tour of the US Dolly has just come back from. Looks like its real purpose, a trawl for a high paying, low effort job ended, like most of his efforts, in bitter failure.
asanque @ 400
“Which corporate entity would want Downer?”
Especially with coast to coast Labor governments.
Fantastic stuff, Zoom.
Cossie’s too lazy for any employer to want him. In ‘the Age’ yesterday, Eddie McGuire was being tipped as the next Labor candidate for Higgins. Not a good idea, I’d say.
A few myrhs should be dispelled
First the philiosophy underpining workchoices was PORTRAYED as the Liberals
philosophy of ‘freedom of the individual or choice’. This was a ‘con’
These words merely camoflaged the real Liberal agenda which was to increase ‘capitals’ share of the profit cake by diminishing the workers wages conditions share.
…via weakening workers bargaining position re being forced to negotiate individually with a boss who held all the cards and by making it easy to sack without ANY justification (thereby weaking the workers ’security’ to negotiate)
The words ‘freedom of the individual ‘ is an empty Liberal slogan.
We all believe in it because we believe in Democracy & its Institutions
The original reasons for the words Menzies in the 1940’s incorporated in the philosophy died with the ‘death’ of socialism in the ALP. Hey Liberals its 2008 !
Liz why would Eddie make a bad candidate in Higgins, he lives there, his childern go to school there although I think the ALP could go with someone like the women who ran in Goldstein.
If I was Alexander i’d be trying to find a remote island somewhere before the inquries start.
Jen should Dolly take his black stockings ?
379
Generic Person Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
No 376
Malcolm Fraser had the overwhelming authority in the cabinet, even if Howard believed the recommendations of the Campbell report should be implemented.
The Campbell report recommended the most fundamental change in our economic settings.
IF Howard believed in this massive change & got rolled he should have resigned.
Which means either was not a true believer or he sqibbed it……or both.
Its like Dolly saying he did not support the Iraq war in cabinet but got rolled by
Howard’s authority in the cabinet and still remained Foreign Minister supporting it
I know it is abit of topic. So for all of you bored talking about the us primaries and the sorriness. Malaysia is heading for a snap election
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2008/February/theworld_February419.xml§ion=theworld
It is a shame however they are going early so Anwar Ibrahim can not contest the election, What cowards. Hope the Barisan Nasional gets flogged personally. But it is unlikeley to happen
Another apology for comment moderation delays. Things will improve from tomorrow evening.
Ah, William, but will an apology really change anything??
very good, zoom.
Eddie is not gonna run in Higgins. For one thing, he would be in a marginal seat at the next election and he would prefer to have a safe seat. The problem is nobody is going to stack a seat out to put in a candidate like Eddie, who might act of his own free will too much. The alternative is the executive will give him a safe seat and I doubt they would be able to sort that out with causing chaos.
Plus they call him Eddie Everywhere, but as a current resident of the capital, Canberra is Nowhere.
420
exactly zoom.
Hollow symbolism from William. we want practical solutions.
Plus I doubt the Magpies fan base would be happy with more games at Manuka Oval.
Jen, I think I read a report somewhere that might have said that there were in fact no comments in moderation in the first place.
Certainly noone I know has ever met one.
Can Mal Brough come down to Melbourne and run in Higgins please!
Or at least get him to run in Mayo!
425
Glen
Good idea Glen, so he can get the “brough” end of the stick for a second time! LOL
KR he’d increase Higgins margin out to 10%!
Mal Brough has more to offer the Australian people in public service than most Labor MPs IMHO, including the bearded bloke who beat him in Longman.
With due respect Glen the Liberal party is a long way from having a 10% margin in Higgins, of course in saying that the Liberals should be able to hold the seat in a by-election
427
Glen
But isn’t the next leader of the Coalition the member for Higgins? You know, the world’s greatest living treasurer?
Pity he’s leaving isn’t it? I mean, such a talent, such a leader, such a statesman and yet…
…oh, the humanity!
BMW Higgins is held by what 7% how hard would it be to increase than by 3%?
Glen,
Well the people in Longman seem to have a different opinion.
Deal with it!
It’s nice to know nothing has changed that much having deserted this forum for a couple of months. Nothing has changed much except for Kev’s fine work in parly yesterday, of course. Don Watson gave the speech a ‘no comment’ in Crikey yesterday but that could either be a reflection of his abhorrence of the odd weasel word thrown in, or the fact that he was sitting on the dunny when Crikey called for a comment.
I was never a great fan of Kev but voted for him nonetheless, and with all the best intentions. My opinion of him changed irrevocably at about 9.30 yesterday morning. I feel good. I hope the majority of the rest of Australia does too.
Today in parly, Swanny looked like a bit of a tool but Julia looked the goods. Who saw that coming, eh? Yeah, I know, everyone.
By the way, isn’t this Generic Person poster just the pseudonym of Helen Darville/Demidenko/Dale? Why’s everyone getting so uptight?
Those comments in moderation have no one to blame but themselves. We whitebread bloggers should not have to put up with all the out of sequence consequences of their secret bloggal laws.
Don’t start me on “The Stolen Blogeration!” It never happened alright!
a picture is tells a thousand words
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/a-good-start-now-work-together/2008/02/13/1202760399107.html
#gusface
Well, I like Kev, Paul and Mal’s ties, but Bob and Gough have something to learn about stripes v primary colours.
That was your point, was it not?
Glen, Peter Costello was a very successful and popular local MP yet from 1998 on-wards his margin declinded, yes I know Government MP’s tend to lose support but if a popular local MP like Peter Costello struggled to break 10% then they are some distance from tha margin.
While Higgins has some very safe Liberal booths it does have areas that lean towards the ALP thus making a 10%+ magin harder to obtain.
The comments were put in moderation for their own good. If they had just been allowed to wander the blogsphere on their own, unmoderated, they would have been dead by now. We should remember that other comments have also been put in moderation in the past, and make sure that William’s apology includes them as well. I am sure William had the best of intentions in NOT reviewing the comments awaiting moderation and should not be made to apologise for this.
I disassociate myself from William’s apology, as I am not responsible for any of the comments in moderation or for William’s slowness in releasing them.
Judge Growler of Greeensborough, I’ll have you know that the alleged ‘blogeration’ in fact, only consisted of a mere 10% of all relevant bloggers, which hardly qualifies for such hyperbole.
And I dare anyone to name ten of these so called stolen bloggers. I dare you’se all!
And a big howdy doody to you Ms Twain.
Long time no snark
Oh, and Billbowe Baggins is obviously a Kultcha Worrier!
Marktwain
actually they were not lined up in chronological order and something else was missing but for the life of me i dont remember-nor do i want to!
The comments in moderation were separated from the other comments for their own good. The moderator acted with the best intentions, and what he did was legal at the time.
You cannot compensate the pain of the authors, but the apology will allow us to move on.
In the spirit of reconciliation, I must say that I don’t agree with all these bloggers bagging Wilson Tuckey and Dennis Jensen and Sophie Mirabella for not apologising, and John Howard for not turning up. While I disagree with the views held by these members, it is the essence of democracy that if you don’t like something, you don’t have to vote for it. It is a blight on our parliamentary process that dissidents toe the party line and vote for things they don’t really believe in. Tuckey, Jensen etc must answer to their own constituents for their failure to support the apology. I prefer an unpopular view being raised in the House, to blind support for a popular one.
Whether we like it or not, many Australians do not support an apology, and their views have a right to be represented in Parliament.
The real disgraceful performance came from the MP (Chris Pearce?) who read a magazine during Rudd’s speech, showing contempt for the Parliamentary process. If he didn’t like the apology, he should not have voted for it, or absented himself, rather than acting like a tool on a solemn occasion.
Howdy Poss. Nice snark hunting to you too. Liked your bit in Crikey the other day. When are you going to out yourself?
Gus, my comment on ties was completely innocent. I could have talked about age or length, but I’d never degenerate into that sort of vulgarity. Not tonight anyway.
Possum,
Next thing you’ll be saying is there was blogger nullius before Poll Bludger. Very dangerous if you are because there is black letter law that says the blogosphere existed prior to anyone knowing about it.
Apologising for missing blogs is one thing. But compensation opens Pandoras can of worms.
It’s so refreshing to see a government full of talented ministers, after 11 years of gross incompetence. At last Australia can move forward, instead of being stuck in the 1950’s. No more Spanish Inquisition. A new look, a refreshing outlook. The dark ages are behind us.
GG are you taking a black blog view of history
GG
but were pandora’s comments placed in moderation for her own good(and of course the can of worms good) and was it with best of intentions?
I actually understand that some bloggers asked for their comments to be put in moderation, because they were drunk and irresponsible, and were incapable of caring about what they’d written.
But what drove them to drink, Antonio? Was it the knowledge that previous comments had been put into moderation and therefore a lingering fear that all subsequent comments would be moderated too?
Let alone the effects of intergenerational moderation; removing blogs deprived bloggers in the subsequent generation of role models and meant that they were not sure what an unmoderated blog looked like.
Oscar Wilde told us how to approach this issue a long time ago – “Everything in moderation – especially moderation”
Blogger Nullius! Hurumph – there’ll be bucketloads of extinguishment – we have a WIKi ten point plan!
You need to read the Fabrication of Blogging History m’lud
Ta Ms Twain – outing is just soooo 2007!
Poss, outing may be soooo 2007 (or soooo Howard era, as it is officially known) but it is soooo well paid! Think of that.
Poss
but what about the bringing them out of moderation report?
Possum,
I abhor the way you wave away “BloggingDreamtime”. Don’t you understand that once you take the blogs, the memory will fade and all we will be left with is an incoherent narrative of unconnected bloglets.
That is right, the blogosphere will become an extension of real life.
At this point Ms Twain, it ain’t about the money – it’s more about the snark. Especially considering the nature of the opportunity cost moving from from econometrics.
I’ve had a few offers from the usual suspects – but until they can get a handle on modern media realities, they’d be wasting my time and theirs.
Zoom – the very act of putting comments in moderation exhibits a welfare mentality. Some comments never come out of moderation – they become increasingly dependent on the moderator. And the cycle continues, generation after generation.
There are cases where bloggers, whose comments are put into moderation early on, come across their comments years later and don’t even recognise them. Others spend years searching for their comments, not realising that the moderator may have deleted them, or even forwarded them to another blog.
In the midst of the word he was trying to say
In the midst of his laughter and glee
He had softly and suddenly vanished away …
Are you, Possum, a snark or a boojum?
Thinking back on it, those last few lines could be applied to numerous members of the former government. And to all of those who talk about “modern media realities”. Snark!
I believe that moderation is an absolute myth. It is absolutely contrary to the fact and I absolutely repudiate it (bangs fist).
It’s obvious we need a moderation intervention.
Antonio,
This condition is called bloglexia. It is KO to admit you have it. I have come across stuff and asked the reasonable question, “who would write that”, and found out it was me.
It is a nightmare.
Possum,
Do you think blogs can be reformed or are they destined to delete themselves becaused of an inherent PDF failure?
As the most regular prisoner of the moderation blogosphere , Dr Adam Carr presides over of all blogosphere land title claims.
William is merely his disciple but regarded as as too soft on the disrespectful
Oooh, nasty! Ms Twain. I’m just a humble possum with claws and a calculator, and despite the musings of many of your fellow journos – I wont be disappearing anywhere, any time soon.
You really have a taste for the classics.
See how quick you all are to jump on the blogging bandwagon!
I bet most of you have never had a blog put into moderation in your life, but you are all too ready to claim to have been part of the Moderated Generation if you think there’s a buck in it.
While we all sympathise with the idea that no blog should be removed from its author, I remind you that there are still blogs today who, without moderation, would suffer errors of syntax and grammar too horrible to contemplate, and which no modern society should tolerate.
Ron,
As Lionel Murphy said when discussing this very topic.
“Those moderated blogs have a right to be disrespectful!”
Greeny, the world has moved on from such Bloggenics – dont you know its now all about the cultural transgressions of blogdem, how its not the kernal that’s the problem, but the malware. It’s so much more palatable to the intellecshual classes that way.
There’s no doubt about it! Some blogs are an absolute waste of cyber-space. No more dead electron editions for me.
“who would write that”, and found out it was me.”
GG
You need a break, that is bad, baaaad, as bad as when I spent an hour looking for my glasses to end up in front of a mirror in despair to see them on my face.
Possum@458
you obviously have never met someone whose comments were held in moderation!
Hey zoom, some of my best friends are bloggers!
But gusface – that’s just victimology!
The theory was that blogs would die out anyway, but if a moderator removed them, and placed them among MySpaces and Facebooks they would assimilate, and have a future in the modern world. However, the policy left blogs in between two worlds, and comfortable in neither. Hence many bloggers demanded an apology. But an apology (like a blog) is just words. We need practical action.
Brendan Nelson has agreed to bipartisan cooperation in a “Stolen Blogs” parliamentary sub-committee, which will interface with key stakeholders, and be outcome-driven in respect of access to ongoing facilitation. Counselling will be provided for those who request it, and a telephone hotline will be set up.
What I find so disturbing is the complete lack of cultural sensitivity to the bloggers who have lost their comments, only to be given a token apology by William.
Compensation is required, not just dental checks.
I move that we get Wilson Tuckey to put forward a private members bill in support.
In the meantime I suggest we all say the Lord’s Prayer very very loudly.
As the second most regular prisioner of the moderation blogosphere , my disrespect has merely penalised me with additional out of school study training from Dr Adam Carr……for which I’m instructed by him I must never apologise for
I personally have been moderated. It is painful and humiliating and no explantions were ever given. Although no doubt I deserved it .
Funny funny funny.
And to think just a few months ago, such mirth would have been inappropriate.
On that I shall exit stage left – night all.
Thanks for the fun,Poss.
Poss, my namesake reckons that “facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable”. He also reckons that “clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society”.
I’m probably channeling him here, as I suspect I may be a little drunk, but I reckon he’s saying there’s no use in hiding behind a nickname, especially if your statistics – or other bits – are a bit wobbly.
What was everyone saying about moderation?
Jen , Prayers are banned by Dr Carr in the moderation blogoshere
Dr Adam says there are no Poll driven data to support them
Possum,
to think back a few months ago is like re entering a bad dream.
And it’s still hard to believe it’s over.
So we all agree, Shakespeare said it in Bloglet, Prince of Bookmarks.
To blog, or not to blog
That is the question
Whether ’tis nobler to suffer
The slings and ridicule of William’s outrageous moderation,
Or take umbrage at a sea of ridicule.
And by opposing him be banned?
Well, we’ve all had our say here tonight, and everyone’s had a good laugh.
But what about those who are in moderation RIGHT NOW!! Spare a thought for them, their pain and their anguish.
Yes, it still happens, though governments now call it “blog protection”.
Antonio #441
you make a generous defence of Tuckey , Jensen etc ” that they have a right for their anti apology views to be represented in Parliament”
Would not most of the anti apology voters have treated Tuesday with the respect of NOT demonstrating their opposition , given the magnitude of the occasion ?
and delayed representing their opposition to any other future Parliamentary day
Where is this so called Apology anyway?
I have not heard the S word, and expressions of regret just don’t cut it Bilbo.
You need bipartisan support from the Opposition (where Is Adam?), and if we don’t like it I for one will flip though a magazine or nor show up at all.
GG – And (as it’s Valentine’s Day), Shakespeare also said:
“If blogging be the food of love, blog on,
Give me excess of it; that surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die”.
Hat tips to everyone tonight. Good fun!
#482 Ron – Why? There was a motion before the house. They were required to vote on it. The worst politicians are those who just take the money and shutup in Parliament, and their electorate never knows what they’ve voted for or what they really believe.
Having lapsed in serious mode, I must go to bed.
Meanwhile, Rudd has gone to East Timor. He’s certainly getting a few things done this week….
In fact, I’d say he’s achieved more since November than John Howard achieved in a decade.
The quality of mercy is not strain’d …
Night all.
have to say that tonight was the most (blogging) fun since November 24th.
It is good to have imbeciles such as Tuckey, Mirrabella, Shultz etc demonstrate just how small minded, how lacking in grace and intelligence, how entirely unsuited to membership of a meaningfull house of parliament they are. It is easy to forget just how meagre is the contribution they generally make to the good governance of the nation. We need the reminders that they gave us yesterday.
Mike
had the MIL over (yes she did finally vote labor)
BUT she felt that the backturning was very disrespectful WTF
The MSM is very skillfull in manipulating the images
the usual suspects were playing to their audience
and of course their 1950’s view of what is right (read white)
we have a long long way to go
Mike you obviously dont believe in Democracy then, you are happy to support the opinions of those you agree with but if anybody like Tuckey, Jensen, Mirrabella and Shultz have a different opinion to you then they are small minded and stupid pardon me but to say someone is stupid for simply having differing opinions to is simple minded in my books.
Had Nelson not done a botler of a speech id have been non-plus about yesterday but im willing for it to happen and move on it appears you arent.
Sophie Mirabella is small minded and stupid even when she has the same opinion as I do.
Zoom something tells me you’ve never had the same opinion with her so your statement is false.
Glen
They were gutless individuals, if they had a different opinion they should have stayed in parliament and voted nay to the motion.
Is not what they were elected for, to represent the people, not loudly recite a prayer to draw attention to themselves and then scuttle from the chamber, or fail to show up at all.
I would have had some respect for them if they had quitely and decently spoken against the motion rather than behave like petulant spoilt children without the courage of their convictions.
I think we agree that little children are sweet, that Australia is the best country in the world, that Mt Buffalo is a terrific holiday destination and that Telstra has failed regional Australia.
But she’s STILL small minded and stupid.
Glen, you can’t take the good feeling away with your trolling tactics. Nelson’s speech was leadfooted, graceless and badly written, full of non sequiturs, mixed metaphors, cliches and awkward expressions. 1 out of 10. And then there’s the content…
Glen, it was not the different opinion to mine that upset me with them, it was the childish, wasteful fashion in which it was expressed. I am always happy to see views contrary to mine argued, particularly if they are argued well and interestingly.
Wilson Tuckey reminds me of myself when I was the class smartar*e in year 8. I was a complete waste of space. I have since grown up and realised how stupidly and selfishly I acted, and I am sorry for the inconvenience I caused to my teachers and classmates. My presence was an unwelcome distraction to all and may have cost some of my classmates dearly in their later aspirations.
The Commonwealth Parliament is much the poorer for the presence of Tuckey, and sadly he is one of the very few people in Australia yet to realise it. By 14 or 15 I woke up to my idiocy and reformed (or at least attempted to) when I became smart enough to realise that clasmates were laughing at me rather than with me. Tuckey has never had that insight.
Arbie Jay i can understand why they did not wish to take part in the ceremony and speeches considering their own views of the Apology but Arbie dont forget alot of people in Australia didnt support it at least they have some representatives in Parliament who are sticking up for their position.
Apres here we go again, any Tory who contributes here is derided as a troll, there are people who vote Liberal Apres, deal with it!
Nelson’s speech highlighted the fact that this is a complex issue and there is no easy way to tackle it. So long as children are being abused in aboriginal camps the apology will have been a waste of time IMHO. We should be Sorry that political correctness has contributed to the problem we see today, that abuses like Nelson mentioned are happening in this day and age is a disgrace and unless Aboriginals march and get angry about what their own people are doing they’ll never be able to stop such injustices.
Sure to those who were forcefully removed and not for their own safety we can and should say Sorry but many children were saved and the irony is there is more reason to remove aboriginal children from their parents today than there was back then.
Apres
Nelson desrves a lot of credit, we have spoken for years of the heartlessness of the libs, and yet when someone like Nelson, who has a touch of humanity like Hewson appears he is set upon.
Nelson expressed some reservations over the apology, but in the end the motion was supported without any amendments or dissentions, and the motion was the motion put forward by Rudd, with not one voice, not one voice against it. That is the significance of yesterday.
Not one member of parliament can now express reservations about the motion now, they are elected to put their views in parliament, if they cannot do that in parliament they should not be there.
Arbie@499
hear hear
I’ve no problem with your voting Liberal, Glen (takes all sorts). It’s your weak arguments, naff opinions and lack of evidence that I object to.
Silly arguments Glen, for so many reasons that I am sure you know. You are falling into line with your team rather than intellectually dissecting what happened, and analysing the words and aims.
On another note, re the bloggo-discourse – you NERDS!
Apres your arguments appear weak when you fail to provide evidence when criticising other bloggers.
Glen
“alot of people in Australia didnt support it at least they have some representatives in Parliament who are sticking up for their position.”
Name one representative in parliament who stood up for these people Glen, name one, just one, only one.
I did not hear one representative speak against the motion, I did not hear one representative vote against the motion.
I have taped the whole proceeding, there was not one , not one vote, not one voice, not one that spoke against it, not one.
In the words of the greatest Tory of them all, the Iron Lady, Maggie Thatcher, who are these people, name these people.
If they were truly sticking up for their position, they would have turned up in Parliament and voted “Nay”.
As it was, they tried to have it both ways by abstaining from the vote.
Nelson’s speech was inappropriate for the occasion. ‘Abuses like Nelson mentioned’ happen in white society too; the implication of his speech was that they are specifically a problem of Aboriginality.
Further, many of the abuses happening today in Aboriginal society are a direct result of the removal of children.
If you want to be politically correct, Glen – a synonym, in my lexicon, for polite or fair – you would acknowledge that all human societies experience rape, murder, incest and addiction. If we paid as much attention to such crimes in our communities as we do when they occur in Aboriginal settlements, we might conclude that our society is also dysfuntional.
Such abuses are generally the symptoms of poverty, despair and hopelessness but can happen in the ‘best’ of families.
I hope you have evidence that there is more reason to remove children now than there was ‘then’, otherwise your comment is an unworthy slur on a group of Australian parents.
Ah, Pancho, Pancho…
typical name calling resorted to by those who deny the very existence of moderated blogs!!
Confront your own guilt, Pancho; deal with your denial.
Tuckey, Jensen, Mirrabella they were quite vocal though they didnt want any part of the Sorry ceremony. The reason they didn’t speak on the motion was because they day was supposed to be in a bipartisan nature and if people did not support the motion im sure it was better they did not spoil the good spirited nature of the ceremony.
Its just like not having Howard there, having Tuckey and Mirrabella there would have spoilt the ceremony everybody knew there position and none of them wanted to have the Sorry to be just from the Government they obviously thought that it was in the best interests of the Party they not attend so that the motion could of been passed by the whole Parliament.
505
zoom – as far as im aware 16 year old white kids don’t rape and drown 4 year olds…these abuses arent tolerated in white communities and they should not be tolerated in black ones.
Before we worry about housing and education for gods sake we’ve got to stop this going on first for the children’s sake!
Glen
did Nelson allow a conscience vote or did the “machine” order it?
If it was a conchy vote then fair enough that they abstained,but if it was against the party shouldn’t they be expelled
i await your reply with interest
Not in my opinion, gusface they represent communities where people may not agree with the apology and so they’re doing their job. Obviously had they been told to vote either for it or abstain then they were abstaining so as to prevent the apology from becoming partisan which would have benefited no one.
gus, if they expelled dissenters, the ‘coaltion’ ranging from Lord Wentworth to Ironbar would be torn apart within minutes.
Glen, a specimen of poor argument on your part:
Zoom something tells me you’ve never had the same opinion with her so your statement is false.
This means if you follow your logic that if person A disagrees with person B anything that person A says must be false. Very bad logic and very shoddy argument.
Arbie Jay, while Nelson did the right thing in supporting the motion, I believe that he did the wrong thing by his insensitive, crass references to how Aboriginal people have made sacrifices for ‘us’. Aboriginal men hearing what he said about sexual abuse in Indigenous communities felt that once again they were all lumped together as abusers of women and children. His speech needed a lot of work just at a stylistic level — as I said before, leadfooted and graceless.
508 – Little Children are certainly sacred Glen, to borrow a phrase. The 97 recommendations of that report should have been implemented, in consultation with its authors, instead of attempting to play ideology with things like the scrapping of the permit system. Hopefully, the changes to the intervention will deliver actual (rather than political) results.
Tuckey, Jensen, Mirrabella ….. The reason they didn’t speak on the motion was because ….
They are bullies, they are no longer in power and now behave like scared little puppies, yapping at shadows and running away to hide.
And to think that not that long ago you were promoting Sophie as a future leader.
Yap, yap, yap yap yap yap yap yap yapyap yap yap yap yap.
The record shows no voice disented, no voice spoke against the motion Glen.
If there are people in the libs who disagreed with it they should have expressed their disagreement .
You need to find people with the courage of their convictions, people who can stand up and say
“I object”
Happy hunting
Glen
did they abstain
or were they voting against the express orders of the party
which one was it?
ps please no flaming re child abuse.it happens refer zoom 505 and Nelsons co-chairmanship of commission.
Apres Aboriginal people are embarrassed at how bad child abuse is in some communities and they should be covering it up is not going to protect the children if the things that were in the report were happening in white communities they’d be outrage and a royal commission! Nelson told it like it was, we cant just be Sorry for the forced removals we’ve got to be Sorry for letting political correctness stop us from protecting aboriginal children from abuse.
Gusface im not a Parliamentary member of the Liberal Party so i havent the foggiest really.
Pancho the permit system is a farce im glad it was abolished.
Rudd will rollback some of the reforms meant to protect children because of pressure from left wing academics.
Arbie Jay i never said Sophie would be our leader check the archives!
Arbie they have expressed their views, today!
Glen
@516
“if the things that were in the report were happening in white communities they’d be outrage and a royal commission!’
one name many many injustices
hollingworth
this is not the time or the place Glen
please answer
did they abstain
or were they voting against the express orders of the party
which one was it?
Apres
I see what you are saying and why the aboriginals were upset, especially over the type casting, but I felt credit to Nelson where it is due.
It was a momentous achievement by him to get the consensus from his party to support the motion.
In the end what was important was that the apology and the recognition came from the whole parliament, from every single elected representative who was there, not from one political party.
Hollingworth and look at the storm that brewed up you’ve just made my point…
If i dont know whether Nelson told them to vote for the motion i cannot tell you whether they abstained or went against the Party simply as that.
And if Aboriginal leaders removed white children from their families, there would also be a Royal Commission. But that is irrelevant. As is your point.
There was an apology. You just lived through national history, live. It was graciously received. Quibbling about marginalia now is just small minded. The challenges are in the future – we have been given a possible break from the past.
Arbie they have expressed their views, today!
I know Glen, yap yap yap yap yap.
I have a little puppy like that, barks at shadows, now and again I have to go out and give it a little smack with a rolled up sheet of newspaper.
Maybe Jenkins or Nelson should do that with Sophie, Wilson and Jensen.
The Liberal hacks abstained because there were TOO GUTLESS to cross the floor and vote against the motion.
They were too gutless to cross the floor during the Howard era, and now they are too gutless to cross the floor in the Nelson era.
They are morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Aboriginal leaders have no jurisdiction to remove white children unless they worked with childrens services Pancho.
Actually it wasnt graciously received yesterday was about the bipartisan support of an Apology from both sides of the House but while one side got cheers for saying Sorry the other side got geers seems but it was a partisan crowd outside Parliament so go figure.
Im more happy with the apology after hearing Nelson’s reply than if Turnbull had made it.
The behaviour of the LNP rump yesterday was consistent with everything else they did in the last decade. They were in government to get what they and their right-wing idealogue close supporters wanted. They were never leaders, just selective manipulators of prejudice in the community, so as to achieve their objective, which is uncomplicated and steeped in history: the Anglo power class must rule.
The post-election problem for the LP was starkly on display yesterday with all the contorted behaviours. One group wants to adapt the party to modern multicultural Australia, but another group just as large wants to continue on with the same outdated battles as exemplified in K Windshuttle’s stuff.
Turnbull must be thanking his lucky stars he didn’t get the last 3 votes.
Arbie@522
“Maybe Jenkins or Nelson should do that with Sophie, Wilson and Jensen.”
what -come around to your place and give the puppy a little smack with a rolled up sheet of newspaper.
beats a game of Pu but you never know who else might show up
nite all
No 504
It is views like yours, Arbie, that highlight the complete nonsense of the Left.
It’s like trying to voice dissent against a strike in a union meeting without a secret ballot. You simply can’t.
No 525
With respect, what a load of absolute rubbish.
For all the implications that the Liberal Party is racist, that they propagate the notion that “the Anglo power class must rule”, there is a seeming dearth of Aboriginal MPs in the Labor Party. Indeed, it is a white Anglo Australian who is now overseeing Aboriginal Affairs for Rudd. At least Brough had indigenous heritage.
An amazing thing.
Abbott will be in delicious thrall. Despite earlier rejection, the stem cell is alive and approved.
Who would have thought, that a Senate Committee, may have even been revived?
Brought back from the brink of extinction.
That, in any form, it would possibly even survive beyond 24 hours.
That it may even replicate into one, two, three or even more bodies, in all its wondrous being?
That those who reject old notions are ready to embrace a new world.
I stand in awe.
486
Antonio Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
#482 Ron – Why? There was a motion before the house. They were required to vote on it
But they did not vote either for or against the motion…they left the House !
It was a weak decision not to vote as they wanted the best of both worlds
PUBLICLY demonstrated dissent & disrespect but did not vote against the Motion
Frankly Howard made the Honest & right decision…not turn up
So should have they , given the momentous occasion
sorry Antonio for late reply…not been on this thread since
528
Generic Person
You have misrepresented what J/V said at # 525
Your claim J/V impied the Liberal Party is racist is nonsense & disingenuous
J/V specifically spoke about “the behaviour of the LNP rump yesterday”
ie. Tuckey , Jensen , Pearce (plus Howard with them in spirit)
who are & were “just selective manipulators of prejudice in the community”
Which is true…Asian boat people , Dr Haneef , Muslims , Aborigines etc.
and we remember Howards public 1987 campaign speech re race imbalance to get the Pauline hansen support
Howard, a product of the 1950’s pro the queen & rejecting multiculturism was
& did use race as a ‘wedge’ just like many of his other despictable ‘wedges’
Nelson (& the LCP) by his actions on Tuesday has repudiated Howard’s views
typo correction: Pauline Hanson type supporters
(508 @ Glen Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
505
zoom – as far as im aware 16 year old white kids don’t rape and drown 4 year olds…these abuses arent tolerated in white communities and they should not be tolerated in black ones, before we worry about housing and education for gods sake we’ve got to stop this going on first for the children’s sake!)
Glen, I wonder how a James Boldger would respond to your comment that 16 years don’t do bad things.
Glen, earlier in this thread I suggested we spend a lot of time tackling the symptoms rather than the condition, and the removel of childern for they have been raped, is a good example for when I last checked it was a criminal offence to committ rape therefore why are the rapist not arrested, charged and sentanced.
That might mean we need extra police resources but instead of increasing police numbers and getting tough with crime what have both sides of politics done, o dear that’s right crime is good for an election campaign but the voters only want tax cuts and some waffle about union bosses
Doesn’t Glen have fun after we’ve all gone to bed?
For a few hours he gets to be ‘king’ of the blog, posting at will, with only a few sleepless souls continuing the fight against his nonsense.
Like Mirabella et al, he doesn’t contest the battle when he might get shot down in flames but waits until the stage is empty so that he can tell himself that he must be right because so few people boo’d him.
If you’d turned the lights on, Glen, you’d have realised there was nobody out there.
Glen, I grew up in a small country town. Because my grandfather was the local minister, I heard a lot of stories as a child I perhaps shouldn’t have – about the baby girl, product of incest between her grandfather and her mother, who was being sexually abused by her grandfather at 3 months old; a schoolfriend of mine, who was raped with a broken bottle by three girls she thought were her friends; numerous ‘common or garden’ rapes. There was a large aboriginal community in the town (one of the largest in Victoria) but these incidents were amongst the whites.
We have also heard on the news here recently about an intellectually disabled girl set upon by a gang of schoolboys who raped and tortured her, capturing the incident on DVD and selling it within the community.
These things, shocking and indefensible as they are, happen in white communities as well as black. Only those blinded by prejudice would imply (as Nelson did) that this is only an Aboriginal problem.
Recently I googled Apology letters and every one said the same thing for an apology to be giving it must deal directly with what you are apologising for and must focus on the person to whom you are apologising too, it’s best done without adding reasons or excuses for an apology is about recongising how the other person felt and enabling them to see that you see their possible hurt.
516 [we cant just be Sorry for the forced removals we’ve got to be Sorry for letting political correctness stop us from protecting aboriginal children from abuse.]
Hey Glen, beautiful right wing rhetoric but I think you will find that these events preceded ‘Political Correctness’ by a long period of time. Never let facts get in the way of a pat answer though – or you might start to doubt the drivel that you type.
As others have pointed out child abuse knows no boundaries and the best defence against it is to treat others with respect which exactly what political correctness sought to achieve.
There was a wooden horse outside the Coalition’s castle. They thought it was a gift from God. So in their jubilation they pulled the horse inside. Little did they know now they got a Trojan horse in the shape of the participation in the so called “War Cabinet”. Ruddy set a trap for the Nowhere Man and he fell right into it without even looking, now that the Coalition is squabbling over it.
Who’s the racist GP? Actions speak louder than words. And to you I say SORRY!
Having worked in sexual assault services for many years let me reassure you Glen that sexual abuse of children happens in white communtites. As does violence against women by men.
There is no suggestion that this behaviour should be tolerated in any community, and it has nothing to do with the apology for stealing children (not for protection, but in the hope of eradicating “aboriginality”).
A full-page ad will be published tomorrow to denounce our local member’s actions and comments. (Mirrbella announced on ABC radio yesterday that there had never been children stolen from their families.) This ad has been funded by many local people :non-party political, and many of them liberal voters apparently.
She does not represent her constituents, and we are paying her salary to be in the Parliament.
Jen, my sources tell me that there is a “Wangaratta says sorry” march planned for next week. Will keep you posted.
thanks zoom -will be there.
i wonder if sofie was listening to the women interviewd on radio 774 this morning just before the 9 am news
and you jest Finnigans of a Trojan Horse but no you have seen Rudd’s real plot and exposed it.
Imagine as part of reconciliation the Commission endorsing unionism should be expanded to all Australan business’ s
Jen, which paper(s) will carry the full-page ad denouncing the odious Mirabella?
The Border Morning Mail, daily paper published in Albury/Wodonga.
The ad was originally proposed to be half a page, funded by individual donations of $20 – obviously if they’ve gone to a full page the response has been better than expected.
Interestingly, local ABC talkback has run about 5-1 against her actions.
I was wondering who wrote Kevin Rudd’s speech. Seems he did it himself.
On Lateline last night Tony quizzed him about the speech. On Saturday Kevin spoke to (said “listened to”) a member of the stolen generation and on Sunday afternoon he got out his biro.
Nice work.
zoom – you may be right about half page.
Rally in Wangatratta on Thursday 21st Feb, King George Gardens.
Apparently at least one Border Mail reader is no Mirabella sympathizer.
http://bordermail.yourguide.com.au/articles/1183506.html?src=search
“SO Sophie Mirabella did not attend the Sorry Day ceremony in Parliament House.
Perhaps she had a more important task to attend undertake.
Yes Sophie, I understand Canberra can be a very busy place with many other important tasks to attend to.
Like Marie Antoinette, were you arranging the pastries?”
viggoP
and looked what happened to her.
seems nelson is so keen to get an apology from Rudd’s staffers but hasnt seen fit to address those like Mirabella that did not bother attending
Was Mark Vaile in attendance for the apology?
Good to see Glen offering himself up as the piñata du jour (to mix languages!) yet again.
Why anyone bothers batting this stuffed toy around has me beat, but maybe it’s just for fun!
Don’t expect any great ideas or wonderfully expressed sentiments to come tumbling out however. Empty, vacous, are two words that come to mind.
Generic P @ 528 & Ron @ 531
Ron is correct GP, I didn’t call the Libs racist. No need, when their actions say it all. I was just putting their sorry day antics into the party’s past and present idealogical context.
Thanks for taking it up Ron – had gone to bed by then.
550
Andrew
Yeah, like I said yesterday Andrew, Horatio Hornet is suddenly keen to have the ’symbolism’ of just two people making an apology to him for the great slight of not looking at him!
But just a few weeks ago he wasn’t going to say sorry to tens of thousands of people whose lives were severely effected by long standing abuses.
Suddenly, ’symbolism’ matters to Lord Horatio Hornet, Admiral of the Sinking Ship of Fools.
“vacous,”
vacuous…ah, the dyslexic digit strokes agaun!
Can i make a recommendation that everyone watches the Clarke and Dawe sketch from last night?
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/
Jayne @551
One source has:
“It’s worth recording the names of those Members of the House of Representatives who were deliberately absent: Sophie Mirabella Wilson Tuckey, Don Randall, Alby Schultz and Dennis Jensen.”
http://laborview.blogspot.com/2008/02/stand-by-us.html
G’day all,
I just got to say that in my opinion Julia Gillard has got a gutter mouth when it comes to IR. I dislike it when she sayd the Coalition is SPITTING in the peoples faces, etc. I thought that sort of language went with Keeting.
As KR correctly points out, do bloggers here really expect Glen to come up with intelligent arguments?? Have you not been reading his posts over the past year?? Dont think it’s worth getting heated up about.
I do think its a shame that both here and at OzForums there is a shortage of intelligent conservative bloggers. Would be good to have more constructive debate
John of Melbourne, my heart bleeds for you, Your poor sensitive Tory ears. There is no greater joy than the bleeting of the tories in defeat…
Julia Gillard for PM
558
John of Melbourne
And the Deputy Opposition leader, during her point of order, which directly preceded this, on several occasions referred to the Deputy Prime Minister, as ’she’!
“She”?
I was surprised the Speaker didn’t slap her hard, but then again, showing no class is hardly surprising for Julie Bishop, is it?
What a slapper!
Lol, thanks Andrew
I think the majority of people hate that sort of language and that Gillard is doing herself a dis-service by talking that way. Surely as a lawyer she is more elloquent then that?
558 [I dislike it when she sayd the Coalition is SPITTING in the peoples faces, etc.]
JOM and I disliked everything the coalition claimed about IR. You’ve got a decade or so to get used to the new language which is no more offensive than the coalition language on IR but cry us a river of crocodile tears by all means.
Two words JOM: Clutching. Straws
Fair enough Steve. Maybe not 10 years, going ty the reports in the Australian today about Swan’s performance in Parliament yesterday 3 looks about right
I’m not fussed by Glen or any of the others – I tend to think they provide good examples of what is wrong with the right.
However, if we don’t challenge their arguments (i) they might think that what they’re saying has the support of the ’silent majority’ (ii) other, more innocent, bloggers might not understand the fallacious nature of their points.
I’m blogging for the unseen audience rather than worrying about convincing Glen.
That said, I’ve always been a great believer in transformation – there ARE people in the world who will change their minds when confronted with arguments they can’t dismiss. To decide that Glen lacks this intellectual capability and refuse to challenge him on this basis would be to do him a great disservice.
And if he lacks the intellectual capacity to do this, at least he’s been given the opportunity.
I suppose JOM has forgotten the ludicrous term ‘Good economic Manager’ which the coalition used as the lie to cover increasing trade deficits, increasing mortgage interest rates, increasing inflation and general laziness and ineptitude within the coalition government.
Interest rates will always be lower undera Coalition government.
That and interest in human rights
567
zoom
Nice senitments there zoom, but if you’ve followed the litany of lost causes that Glen has espoused over the last year, you’d have to conclude that he’s a pathological case.
Time and time again, putting up ludicrously silly arguments, (and badly expressed, but hey, that’s just my personal opinion! LOL), trying to defend the utterly indefensible without one iota of acknowledgement that he’s ever wrong about any of it.
This isn’t a ‘person’, it’s a troll-bot, pre-programmed to be wrong and to never alter any position, no matter what the argument against, or even the result of the popular vote.
Why bother?
569 [Interest rates will always be lower undera Coalition government.]
Can’t wait for those weasel words to come back and bite them in three years time too!
Steve do you expect interest rates to lower in three years?
if interests rates are higher under a labour, does that mean the economy is growing faster?
If you’re sick of thinking about interest rates, try giving your support to the Kimberley’s environment. For the latest: World Heritage Listing for the Kimberley? visit: http://laborview.blogspot.com/ Find out why Barry “I’m not sorry” Haase thinks natural Gas plants are better tourist attractions than world heritage areas.
569
John of Melbourne Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Interest rates will always be lower undera Coalition government.
FACT 1/ from the Treasury Department archives:
the highest interest rates since 1930 were Labor’s Crean’s 20.74% in 1974
they were the highest worldwide due to the first Oil shock rise
the SECOND highest interest rates since 1930 were Howards 20.56% in 1982
there was NO , I repeat no comparable worldwide high interest rates in 1982
You are entitled to a “value” judgement & by all means do so
You are not entitled to peddle mis truths of facts
FACT 2/
Howard Treasurer in 1982 presided over the worst inflation/unemployment
figures in over 50 years
Inflation 11% and unemployment 11%
this is not a typo error…both figures were 11%
On any economic measure , Howard is the worst Treasurer in Australian history
and his claims of a being a “sound economic manager” are factually untrue
Had you made claims of Costello’s economic prowess then AT LEAST you would have had a valid statistical argument to advance
(but I reserve my stats on Costello for another day)
And in a moment of supreme irony:
front page of the Border Mail (next to the advertisemnt for the Sorry rally on Thursday in Wangaratta),
Sophie Mirrabella annouces that she is pregnant with her first child.
The attacks against Sophie Mirabella are unwarranted, offensive and totally out of order.
Ms Mirabella is an upstanding member of parliament.
gp funny funny man
Take off the rose-tinted glasses GP, nobody is calling her names, but people are decrying her (and others) lack of courage in Parliament.
GP: justify that statement.
Morgan pre-apology 62.5/37.5.
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4270/
Latest Morgan http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4270/
Labor 62.5% 2PP
Andrew!! stealing my thunder by 2 whole minutes…
No 581
She does not let symbols get in the way of facts. Children, white or black, should be removed from families where there is evidence of abuse.
GP et al
The abusers should be removed
No 580
Sorry Al, but the leftist definition of “courage” is insufferably arrogant; i.e. only those which agree with your view are courageous. Heaven forbid should there be difference of opinion.
GP, name one person – just one – who says that children (black or white) should NOT be removed when removal is justified.
The apology was NOT about the removal of children from harmful environments, but the removal of children solely on the basis of race.
QED – if you were an aboriginal child, removed because you were in a life threatening situation, the apology does not apply to you.
No 586
They are. Is it any wonder why Aborigines comprise the largest percentage of prison detainees?
No, GP, the leftist definition of courage is exactly the same as any normal person’s- that is, true courage is standing up for your beliefs.
Courage is not hiding away and avoiding scrutiny.
I notice that the courageous Mirabella was uncontactable for nearly 24 hours (her own media officer was unable to say whether she had been absent due to illness or not) and since then has only taken part in one interview (to my knowledge, correct me if I’m wrong) on local ABC radio.
I’m sure she’ll do numerous speeches to totally sympathetic audiences such as the Young Libs but I doubt she’ll subject herself to any real scrutiny.
No 588
zoom, everyone says they agree with removing children from abusive family environments, but the practical reality is that political correctness has stopped that from occurring in the case of indigenous peoples. The appauling cases of child abuse in Aboriginal communites is case in point.
The term “Stolen Generation” is entirely misleading because it doesn’t make the distinction that you just outlined. It assumes that all children were stolen, whether on the basis of race (clearly a despicable practice), or on the basis of harm (noble).
By the way, GP, still haven’t explained why Mirabella is an upstanding member of Parliament, despite my request.
Surely you’re not basing your assessment of her abilities on one incident?
No 590
As in the point I made earlier, what you’re effectively advocating is like trying to voice dissent against a strike in a union meeting without a secret ballot.
No 592
Your petty semantic games are of no value zoom. Regardless of my justification, you and others were never going to accept it.
591
GP – evidence, please?
The term ‘Stolen Generation’ is perfectly clear. The majority of children were removed because of their race.
It’s like saying that someone was not a victim of the Holocaust because – although they were taken to a concentration camp – they weren’t Jewish.
Oh the humanity!! One of my comments has just been put in moderation!
William, I demand an apology…
594
I didn’t think whether I accepted it or not was important.
You have made a statement, you should be able to back it up with evidence.
If you can’t, then it has no validity.
I would remind you that Mirabella had the biggest swing against a sitting member in regional Victoria, scarcely an indication that her electorate sees her the way you do.
593
Exactly – that would be a courageous thing to do, don’t you agree?
zoom you have touched on an important aspect of the sorry debate. Many of those I have spoken to believe the issue to be of removing children due to welfare concerns, rather than due to race. Would be good to have an education campaign about this
No 597
No, futile would be the apt term.
No GP, my definition of courage is standing up to your convictions and not just absenting by being not present and has nothing to do with your absurd definition of Left and Right. Whether I’m being disagreed with or not, I stand by my convictions. I would have disagreed with her if she’d voted against the motion, but I would not have thought that she lacked courage. I am all for discussing differences of opinion, but what annoys me is automatic dismissal and labelling of any opposing viewpoints as “Leftist” as you just did to me.
What a fantastic display of hypocrisy.
People may want to have look at Larvatus Prodeo, where historian Naomi Parry has given a very interesting account of the Stolen Generation, in NSW. Generic Person, I suggest you may use this to start educating yourself.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/02/12/guest-post-by-naomi-parry-debunking-windschuttle/
600
But a courageous person, who believed what they were saying, would persevere
I urge you then to find an example where I have dismissed your arguments.
No 603
A courageous person is not a person who engages in futile exercises.
My comments regarding Tuckey and his unfitness to serve in Parliament were not based on his lack of class or competence on Sorry Day. That was just the reminder to me that he, Alby Schultz and a few others are just so boofheaded, unintelligent, uncultured and generally socially lacklustre that they are a drain on the resources of their party and the Parliament. It is not so much that I disagree with their views as that they seldom present any coherent views at all.
The fact that Tuckey is more renowned for his thuggish and idiotic rabblerousing in the house than for any single positive achievement after so many years of “service” is proof of my opinion.
The fact that these imbeciles hold safe seats for lengthy periods is an indictment of their party organisations.
I appreciate that there is dross on all sides of the house, but at least most of them have the good grace to behave in a civilized manner. Tuckey is a seventy year old juvenile delinquent. Maybe for his own good he should have been removed!
“A courageous person is not a person who engages in futile exercises.”
Touche.
What makes you so authoritative on that subject? On the one hand we have people arguing about politicians lacking the courage of their convictions, and then when they express their opinion, they are chastised for being “uncultured” and “socially lacklustre” (in other words, people who disagree with the “frothing at the mouth leftie” mantra). Heaven forbid should people hold different views.
As previously stated, GP, we have no objection to you holding different views.
We do, however, object to the way you make sweeping statements, refuse to support them with evidence, and then start throwing around labels.
Heaven forbid that we should draw the conclusion from this that, in fact, you can’t support your own statements, resent being asked to, and start frothing at the mouth because people don’t just accept that what you believe is Holy Writ.
I realise young people nowadays are uppity and should just take everything you say as the truth without question, but instead of waving your walking stick around and getting apolectic with fury, you should take a few deep breaths and remember that when you were young, you liked things explained to you too.
Does anyone here seriously believe that Generic Person is going to be swayed by (or even consider intelligently) articulate and persuasive arguments?
No, I didn’t think so.
Never the less, I am enjoying watching the valiant effort to beat him about the head, neck and shoulders with the cudgel of reasoned argument, so keep it up.
For anyone claiming that tens of thousands of children (50-100K?) were all taken away because they were all being abused is abusing our intelligence, and simply rewriting the personal histories of these people.
This is the kind of crappola the rightwing uses to cover racist-policy and utterly inhumane treatment.
Kids were just herded up like animals, pushed into vehicles and whisked away, often without even informing the parents.
For god sake, tell me what is humane or caring about that?
This is the most egregious bit of BS coming from the White Armband Brigade and should be flatly denied oxygen.
Thousands and thousands were NOT being abused, they just happened to be the product of sexual-depredation by whites on blacks and whisking them away was yet another method to pretend it wasn’t happening or that ‘we’ somehow cared.
I’m sick of this codswallop, and mealy mouthed excuses, because it’s plain to see, it was an attempt to wipe them out in the tried and trued methods.
“589
Generic Person Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
No 586
They are. Is it any wonder why Aborigines comprise the largest percentage of prison detainees?”
Generic Person
Answer your own question here, explicitly and in detail, or remain silent.
Then readers can reach their own conclusions on what you mean by this.
zoom, when you pretended to have evidentiary underpinnings to your arguments regarding the divide between classical economists and modern conservative opinion earlier in this thread, I thoroughly dismissed them with proper justification. You subsequently admitted that you had only a cursory understanding of what you had said. Why should I bother in that case?
Furthermore, see Mr Cusack’s stunningly supported vitriol against Wilson Tuckey.
So, please, either get off your high horse or let it gallop away with the other wilderbeasts.
He’s starting to weaken! Keep up the onslaught!
613
Because it shows that, confronted with reasoned argument, I listen and respond. If I have to, I admit ignorance and admit that I was wrong.
That’s all I expect of anyone else.
By the way, horses aren’t wildebeasts.
602
Liz
Good article, thanks. I hadn’t scrolled up to your post prior to my rant at 611, but essentially, it’s the same message. I’m totally fed up with the obnoxious claims to some ‘moral superiority’ for what was, by the overwhelming accounts, morally indefensible.
Windschuttle is a disgraceful, deformed little dwarf disguised as an ‘academic’: head and heart both made of plaster.
The RBA forecasts inflation is going to get worse and remain at the top or above its 2-3 per cent target range right out to June 2010.
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,23218517-31037,00.html
FYI KR, as I am sure you are aware, Windschuttle never completed a PhD, and has not worked at a university since the early 1990s. So references to him as a ‘historian’ or ‘academic’ are not quite right (I note your inverted commas). ‘Writer’ or ‘polemicist’ would be more apt.
Guest post by Peter Russo…Haneef legal team.
http://blogs.news.com.au/news/blogocracy/index.php/news/comments/keeltys_media_blackout_revisited/
jen Says at #539:
February 15th, 2008 at 9:17 am
“Having worked in sexual assault services for many years let me reassure you Glen that sexual abuse of children happens in white communtites. As does violence against women by men.
There is no suggestion that this behaviour should be tolerated in any community, and it has nothing to do with the apology for stealing children (not for protection, but in the hope of eradicating “aboriginality”).”
I have just logged on and read the previous posts.
Having been involved in the study of, attempting to prevent, and counselling of victims/survivors of child sexual abuse and domestic violence for more than 30 years [ye gods is it that long!], nationally and internationally, allow me to fully endorse jen’s remarks as quoted.
Child sexual abuse and domestic violence occur in ALL sectors of the Australian community, including, but not restricted to, wealthy white communities.
We have never contemplated withholding the sources of income or sending in the military or even, perhaps unfortunately, withdrawing offenders from their family victims of wealthy white offenders at any where near the rate that was practised with the indigenous people even when no abuse was present.
To isolate indigenous people as perpetrators of these crimes and to ignore the ubiquitous and endemic prevalence of such throughout our entire society is blatant racism.
For such unwarranted focus Nelson, and all who endorse his attitude, deserves condemnation.
JOM thanks for your inflation news. Please outline whether it is (a) the government that was in for the past 11 years or (b) the government that has been in for the past 3 months, that has had most to with that. Just (a) or (b) please
If you have the stomach for it, have a gander at some of the ill-informed, inarticulate and downright racist comments here. I feel physically sick after reading a couple of screenloads.
617
Pancho
yep, he’s a polecat alright! Isn’t that what you called him? LOL
Odious little toad that he is, pandering to the redneck belief that we never done those black-bastards no harm, and all we ever wanted to do was help ‘em, and look at those white whingers saying we were cruel to them.
Beneath contempt.
GP
following on from your remarks
“On the one hand we have people arguing about politicians lacking the courage of their convictions, and then when they express their opinion, they are chastised for being “uncultured” and “socially lacklustre” (in other words, people who disagree with the “frothing at the mouth leftie” mantra). Heaven forbid should people hold different views.”
I take it you supported k nettles and b browns stance re g bush and his visit
( i seem to remember the MSM and Gvt went ballistic)?
Listened to Gary Humphries(Senator, ACT) on the local radio this morning – he seemed to think that the Coalition was going to be Opposition for at least 2 terms(5 to 10 years) is what he’s expecting.
Andrew, I’ll go for neither.
The former Labor opposition agreed with Mr. Howards economic conservatism. Why is Swan complaining? Didn’t he say that the then Howard Government was just riding on the back of the mining boom and that anybody can run the economy. How did all that change in 3 months?
He also commented that the Howard Government had ignored the RBAs warnings about inflationary pressures and that, unless action was taken, inflation was bound to rise.
A bit like climate change, really – leave it too long and it takes longer to correct the damage.
If Howard and SuperTreasurer had heeded the warnings, the problem would be a lot easier to fix.
Where is GP, by the way? Time for his nap?
I think his argument John was that the economy pretty much runs itself these days. Since the Reserve Bank have only just started to release full minutes of their meetings since December last year, it may have very well been the case that the long term projections throughout last year predicted very similar inflation figures. But that’s something that we can only speculate on, however it is good to have increased transparancy in Reserve Bank meetings.
You finally managed to beat him into submission with your razor wit, zoom. I think the bit about him mistakenly using the phrase “wilderbeast” was the knock-out punch.
Rejoice!
New Morgan Poll. If anyone is interested!
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4270/
JOM not good enough
answer the question (a) or (b)?
At this stage Andrew A, however after the Budget it will be the Labor Government.
If Mr. Howards economic policies were so bad then why has Rudd adopted them?
There’s a wicked kind of joy in watching the discomfiture of the RWDBs as they struggle to come to terms with the election loss. I try to restrain my schadenfreude because I know deep in my heart that it is wrong, wrong, wrong but after listening to some of the bile coming out of the blogosphere over the apology, I can’t help myself.
Since it so annoyed me when it was said (so very frequently) by the other side when the shoe was on t’other foot, as it was clearly intended to do, can I be one of the first to say to the sorehearted and disgruntled:
“If you don’t like it – you can always leave the country.”
Damn, that felt good.
633
Just Saying
Here! Here!
Well said, and pour another schadenfreude larger for this little brown duck, coz it tastes so sweet! LOL
If they don’t like it, then they can just p1ss orf!
625 [Why is Swan complaining? Didn’t he say that the then Howard Government was just riding on the back of the mining boom and that anybody can run the economy. How did all that change in 3 months?]
And while they were riding on the back of the mining boom, how come the conservatives allowed inflation, interest rates and the current account deficit to blow out? Surely they could have been capable of producing better economic results than they did in these vital areas.
I support their right to hold their views and certainly they expressed them However, I also seem to recall that Mr Brown acted in an unparliamentary manner causing him to be ejected by the Speaker.
Lol, Steve. Labor has inherited a booming economy yet they whinge?
I’ve just scanned 3 hours of the apology debate , which is disappointing because 90% of the LCP voted for the apology & regard the issue settled.
I would mention 2 points that may have caused much misunderstanding:
1/ Australians foremost historian on the ’stolen’ generation Peter Read spent 25
years of research & his evidence frankly is overwhelming & never challenged
2/ There is no dispute many of the aborigine kids taken were sexually and/or healthwise abused and many more taken who were not abused.
Dodson publicly ackowledged on Tuesday his appreciation for the missionaries & aid people who looked after those aborigine kids taken from abused etc homes
3/ But the fact is the kids were taken on the grounds of ‘race’ and various State Government at the time actually report this.
Had ‘race’ not been the criteria , over 100,000 odd ‘white’ kids would have been removed for sexually and/or healthwise abused reasons instead of a few
AND the non abused kids would not have been taken away either
4/ It was a generation unlike ours who are better informed who believed not only in Aborigines being beneath ‘whites’ but that ANY non white was beneath a non white….hence the “White Australia” Policy was then the Immigration Law
5/ John Howard was of that ‘white Australia’ generation. ‘Stolen generation’ is an assault on HIS generation.Politically Howard used it as a prejudical wedge
highlighing the abuse but not the race discrimination by which the abused kids were taken nor the fact many taken were not abused
6/ NO ONE absolves the ’sexual abuser’ but the kids were victims and were taken (unlike most white abused kids) on ‘race’ grounds whether they’d been abused or not.
Those who are in self denial will never change their views because Howard’s case whilst false overall had enough parts of the truth (the abuse) to convince
some that Howard’s version is the whole truth.
No 629
I think it is you who is mistaken. I have not been silenced.
Ah, a witty comeback too. Have mercy, Generic Person!
Neither have I.
I am speaking at the Indi Rally to apologise fo the RACIST opolicies that caused so much harm to aboriginal people for so long.
That, GP, is standing up for your convictions. Not doing a “no show”.
JOM as a Labor supporter, I am not whingeing about the economy. I am frustrated at those conservatives that are trying to blame inflation and interest rate rises on a government that has been in for a few months and has not changed any policy settings yet, rather than acknowledge that their so called superior economic managers left an economy with an inflation problem
And Nelson says Sorry – Again.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/15/2164063.htm?section=justin
Give him another couple of dozen goes or so and he might get it right.
And lose the leadership.
Jen @ 641 – Is that speech at the Indi 500 at the Gold Coast? I hope thay can hear you!
yep JV-
that’s the one.
I’ll just speak loudly in my best Wilson Tuckey voice.
What Aunty Faye Lynham was upset about was that Nelson borrowed her story of being taken away from her father (from the oral history files in the Museum of Vic) and placed it after the section in his speech where he said that some children were taken away from squalor and misery. He implied that her father approved her being taken away, whereas he didn’t, only agreeing when promised that he would see his six-year-old daughter whenever he wanted. Which never happened. Aunty Faye said that when Nelson (mis)used her story she felt as though she was stolen all over again.
Generic Person, have you bothered to read the article and discussion I linked to? Or aren’t you interested in learning about this history?
And speaking of Wilson Tuckey.
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=58499
Nelson is not very good at giving unqualified apologies is he.
Brendan, here’s a script for you to follow. Repeat after me:
“I was wrong and I’m sorry.”
That’s it – no qualifications or “But they meant well” or “If it caused offence” .. when clearly it did. Nothing. Let’s do it again:
“I was wrong and I’m sorry.”
Good – now shut up.
Yes I raped the girl but she wore a short dress
Then it’s not rape Ron.
And before I get attacked: Irony Alert
even for “sweetheart” ??
ViggoP @ 557. Thanks
No 642
The so-called “inflation genie” is exaggerated. For a government who campaigned about stopping the political-buckpassing, they seem to be doing quite a lot to syphon-off blame to the last government wherever possible.
Yes Ron -
even for him.
No 648
Yes, I did read that article. Kieth Windschuttle is still an appropriate historian.
Try reading Prof. Peter Read’s 25year stolen generation research & investigation
IF you wish to have your conscience at odds with your current misplaced views
but that would take you away from our blog for 6 months
No 659
Andrew Bolt’s blog is particularly instructive on the issue with respect to Victoria.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/victoria_suddenly_finds_stolen_children_wanting_cash/
And people have the hide to chastise Sophie Mirabella….unbelievable.
If Andrew Bolt’s blog is instructive then Sophie’s the virgin Mary.
Well, well, well. Those snouts in the trough Liberals have opposed the freeze on a wage increase for federal politicians:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23219574-1702,00.html
Tony Abbot is complaining that he only gets paid $127,000 a year! Joe Hockey is complaining that he will have to rock up at work on Fridays, even though he earnt $205,000 a year for the last three years.
No wonder that pack of morons lost the last election.
Apres – that means she is carrying the Messiah.
And I thought that was Obama.
661
shes not the virgin mary, shes nasty nasty half eaten pastie
Well I can understand you preferring Andrew Bolt a newspaper gossip columnist
vs. Australia’s foremost historian on the subject Pro. Peter Read & his 25yr research…..for your knowledge of the subject
Lets not be challenged with hard evidence
I wish I was struggling to make ends meet on $127k a year.
No 662
ShowsOn you’re tantrums about high wage earners exhibit nothing more than class bigotry.
I cannot believe you are finding ways to justify an exercise in populism by Mr Rudd. Had Howard done this, you’d have screamed blue murder.
EDIT: spelling. your not you’re.
No 661
Cast aside your prejudice toward Mr Bolt, and perhaps you’d sound more authoritative.
The following piece from August last year about the Trevorrow case exemplifies a stark lack of a policy to “keep white Australia pure”.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22206624-25717,00.html
GP-
you are fantastic.
Class Bigotry??
As in, the wealthy are discriminated against??
Tell the truth: you’re a troll.
No 670
Yes, the wealthy are susceptible to discrimination. Indeed our entire taxation system discriminates against high wage earners. If that is not discrimination, clearly your definition is leaves much to be desired.
GP, I’m not prejudiced, just very sure of my ground. The Herald Sun is an authoritative source of good history?
Why should we take your advice about what discrimination is or isn’t when you don’t believe in universal human rights?
OH MY GOD! Oh my god. OH MY GOD!
That is absolutely beautiful, Generic Person. BEAUTIFUL!
The tax system IS discriminatory. SHOCK! HORROR! How dare those poor people pay less tax than me, just because I earn 50 times as much as them? I AM OUTRAGED!!!
Benn. Howard , a US screen producer wrote many articles in the 1980’s
claiming man has never walked on the moon…that Armstrong’s landing was fake
He had many disciples who believed his theory it was a NASA/CIA conspiracy
He went further & produced a film set in the Arizona desert with light , sound & surroundings mirroring the moon to prove how the NASA/CIA faked it
Apparently the disciple’s views were re-affirmed…man did not land on the moon
Facts & logic would not persuade them
Howard’s disciples do not believe it happened either
No 672
Why is Bolt’s opinion less worthy than anyone elses? Or are you much too bigoted to consider other sources of commentary?
Andrew Bolt iis a newspaper gossip columnist
vs. Australia’s foremost historian on the subject Pro. Peter Read & his 25yr research
I rest my case
No 673
Since you seem literally challenged, this is for your benefit:
dis·crim·i·na·tion
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4. Archaic. something that serves to differentiate.
Andos @674
Perhaps they should get a national Apology for suchh appaling mistreatment, resulting in only 2 Beamers in the driveway.
676 Why would Bolt’s opinion be worth as much as anyone else’s? Or are you too bigoted to consider other sources of commentary?
No 674
Oh please, enough with the infantile behaviour.
I offered no opinion, positive or negative, on the virtues of a progressive tax system. I simply stated that high wage earners are discriminated against through taxation policy.
No 677
If you actually bothered to read the article you’d perhaps notice that he extensively quotes the judge who oversaw the proceedings in the Trevorrow case, the first which dealt with the stolen generations.
Yes, it was settled that Marjory Angas unlawfully promulgated the withholding of a child from his parents, but there was no evidence that this was racially motivated in order to keep Australia white.
Well! You certainly put me in my place, Generic Person.
It’s good to see that your dogmatic intractability remains undiminished.
Touché!
667 GP
“ShowsOn you’re tantrums about high wage earners exhibit nothing more than class bigotry.”
I think you might find GP that it6 was this comment that got the reaction, not a commentary on progressive taxation.
Now, tell the truth – you are a troll,aren’t you?
You cannot be serious.
READ ABOUT “HUMAN RIGHTS”.
If you are representative of the standard of lawyers this country is producing then we are all screwed.
Had you read the report which clearly you did not , you would know Bolte made selective quotes & out of context
No 685
ShowsOn, thankyou for entirely missing the point. Pathetic personal attacks don’t enhance the value of your otherwise frail arguments.
GP don’t be lazy. Instead of allowing Bolt to twist the case for you read it yourself. You certainly can’t come up with a stupider reaction to it than Bolt did, Can you?
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/sa/SASC/2007/285.html
Don’t be a moron. The Liberals are complaining that they AREN’T high income earners! They want MORE MONEY not LESS. Can’t you even TRY to produce a semi-coherent argument?
Stop being a moron. Abbott and Costello both opposed Latham’s changes to politician superannuation, it is absolutely nothing new for Liberals to complain when someone moves their heads away from the tax payer trough.
The Coalition Senators set up another THREE Senate standing committees this week just so they can share chairmanships before the new senate takes over. That is all they are interested in, an extra $20,000 – $30,000 of tax payers money each for the Liberal chairs of those comittees before the new senate takes over. They couldn’t care less about making a lean and efficient government. All they are is talk and no action.
Show some principle, if you believe in smaller government then condemn actions by Liberal hacks that WASTE OUR MONEY.
So why did you just attack me personally?
Typical Liberal hack who can’t practice what they preach.
No 684
Jen, ShowsOn’s comments demonstrate cynical dislike for high wage earners based on nothing but pure class bigotry and jealousy.
It appears a class in English will be necessary for many Poll Bludger readers. Oh, I forgot, that don’t teach English anymore. They teach students about redressing “social injustice”, whatever the hell that has to do with English, your guess is as good as mine.
No 690
ShowsOn, the first sentence in my statement addressed your argument, not your person.
GP
imagine that the concept of terra nullus,official gvt policy and various social/historical sources are wrong
Do the children stolen from their parents deserve an apology on purely humanistic grounds
what is your opininin of the ‘barnardo boys”
For the benefit of blogers
Pro. Gerard Henderson is the ‘right’ most famous Historian (not Bolt a gossip man
Yet even Henderson does not challenge the basic research on Pro Peter Read
Its a little pointless debating with someone who does NOT accept the opinion
of the best expert on their OWN side of politics
Fellow spirits , I’m going out ….all the best
definitely a troll. probably William .
If you really are studying to be a lawyer, GP, you should make sure you know the meaning of ‘literally’ (678). At a guess, I’d say you’re literally challenged.
GP = AB. Now there’s a thought.
ShowsOn: are you a staffer or former staffer for an Australian Labor Party parliamentarian (past or present)?
There’s a new thread open for the latest Morgan poll, so I’m closing this one.