Roy Morgan’s fourth published poll of the Rudd era has produced a result similar to the first two, after a slight improvement for the Coalition at the third. Labor’s two-party lead has increased to 62.5-37.5 from 60-40 at the previous face-to-face poll; their primary vote is up from 49 per cent to 54 per cent, with the Coalition down from 36 per cent to 33 per cent.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Morgan: 62.5-37.5
Copyright © 2008 Private Media Pty Ltd, Publishers of Crikey.com.au. All Rights Reserved.
Independent news, blogs and commentary on politics, media and business.
Editor: Jonathan Green.
Publishers: Eric Beecher, Diana Gribble.
Level 7, 22 William St, Melbourne, 3000. Ph: 1800 985 502 Fax: (03) 8623 9975
681 Comments
Honeymoon & hopeless oppostion = these kinda of poll results.
Nothing to see here people, move along.
Libs still waiting for that post “Masterclass” budget bounce…
Horatio Hornet tailspin perhaps.
This might be as good as it gets for the Libs for a long time now they have locked themselves into the IR issue after previously doing the politically smart thing and declaring their IR policy dead. A backwardslooking opposition makes good poll figures hard to obtain.
If these numbers keep up Horatio Hornet really will be sorry: sorry he joined the Liberal Party.
Unsheathe thy 24ct gold dagger Lord Moneybags of Wentworth, the Poisoned Chalice of Howard’s Legacy is yours for the taking.
4
Fagin
Indeed, Rainmaker lurks, but the Mad Monk swirls around like Howard’s Ghost, praising all things Howard and signalling to the assembled throng of nongs that he is really the reincarnation of all that the dear Great (Departed) Leader stood for.
Rainmaker should beware the ghost of Howard, for it means to do him ill.
This is the best set of poll numbers Rudd has ever had!
This would be a 10% swing to the Government, the irony is when it gets out into voterland that the Liberals are blocking the changes to I.R then the poll dust will hit the fan.
I think the only saving grace for the Liberals is what programs will the ALP cut in its budget and where will Interest rates go.
I know this is slightly off topic but I have spotted a problem with Rudd’s I.R laws regarding his changes to Sickies no longer needing a medical certificate, this is plainly silly
A little tory-come-lately called Turnbull will no doubt be deeply distressed at these figures. Very deeply.
This week Rudd appoligised for actions past and buried in one hour, Howard’s legacy, quite an amazing effort really.
Did anyone notice how many people said they where proud to be Australian again, those that continue to look for the worst in a people should think about that.
Brenden Nelson was a little slow and didn’t pick it up before making his now irrelevant speech; who can blame him; it was suitable for the same old, same old.
The Liberal party has had two days go work it out, there now is now no excuse.
Did anyone else on the way to work have to walk around those big chunks of sky that fell yesterday? (Although maybe that is what happened in Mackay).
Note to Liberals: Please install Abbott as leader.
I’m sure PM “Kevin” greatly appreciates the wit and wisdom emanating from his little cheer-squad on William’s website.
Rx
havent they suffered enough already……
on second thoughts
Abbott for leader
Gus
God has spoken to Abbott to tell him of his destiny:
To lead the chosen Liberals through the wilderness for 40 years and 40 nights.
Abbot for leader? That’s absolutely evil.
I love it
Does anyone know if this poll was taken before or after the apology?
maybe he can take the pious prat from menzies with him
Does anyone know if this poll was taken before or after the apology?]
Before the actual event, but during the argy-bargy over the wording.
yes, please.
Abbott as leader.
And then, when the polls plummett and the Libs descend further into darkness he can’t hide behind all the others as if none of it was to do with him.
From the previous thread:
1. The concept of terra nullius is false, at least in the context of its application to Australia by English settlers. However, I would no go as far as some have gone and label English settlement “an invasion” for which we should be guilty.
2. “Stolen” is a misleading term unless it is defined. If by stolen, you mean child welfare workers removing children from abusive and neglectful environments, then I would wholeheartedly disagree that any apology should be forthcoming. If they were removed under some notion of racial cleansing, well the Government has already apologised.
3. Despite occasional stories of mistreatment, it would appear that Barnardo boys/girls were given opportunities they otherwise would not have had.
No 19
A perfectly communist statement, one party state and all. But to be expected of course.
GP, in the words of the immortal Manuel of Fawlty Towers, Que?
GP ,
if there is only a one party state that is because one party has become all but irrelevant.
Communist??…
Troll
The Liberals planned to gradually achive a fascist state, using WorkChoices as the stealth weapon.
The aim: to eradicate unions, the financial backers of the Labor Party.
Agenda: a state dominated by one big powerful party, the Liberals.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/pm-of-ulterior-motives/2007/09/29/1190486626917.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
No 24
Speculative conspiracy theory at best, Rx.
Rx @ 14
“God has spoken to Abbott to tell him of his destiny:”
Wasn’t it just yesterday that Abbott admitted he continues to have ears only for JWH’s counsel? Given the Monk’s fulsome praise for everything Howard’s ever done, I can see that the Monk might believe him to be He, but please tell me that it ain’t so?!
No 23
Labelling me a troll does not disguise your inability to engage in a proper argument.
Not much speculation GP. It is all very ‘logical’ in a rodentine way…
WorkChoices to legislatively sideline unions.
Union membership dries up.
Labor’s primary talent genepool – the union movement – shallows.
Money contributed by unions to Labor dries up.
Labor unable to effectively campaign and promote its policies.
Entrenchment of Liberal power.
You think a cunning political rodent like Howard the IR Coward did not foresee, in fact, plan all that?
No Rx
GOD DID
No 28
Of course it is seemingly logical in the eyes of Howard Haters.
But the reality is that despite dwindling membership (and subsequent fees) of unions, the ALP accrued a sizeable swing in its favour to take government.
GP-
this is true.
However I can’t engage in a proper argument unless there is a proper argumentee. And I think you are a troll.
One party does not = communism, anyway. Many examples
Well then, GP, it is a very good thing for our two-party system that Labor won the election.
Because if they hadn’t ..
WorkChoices would have been cemented into perpetuity (the IR Coward admitted this),
Unions would have become slowly extinct,
And with them, Labor’s viability as an opposition to the hard-right Liberals.
A hard-right party without viable opposition trends to FASCISM.
NOT TO MENTION what would have happened to the workplace rights and conditions of Aussies, now and for generations into the future.
No 31
Thankyou for reinforcing my earlier point, jen. Again, labels are your only strength it seems.
I gather a proper “argumentee” (such disgusting vandalism of the English language) is one which subscribes to your world view.
EDIT:
Unions would have become
slowlyextinct..
Unions would have become forcibly extinct
No 33
I always enjoy your frivolous disregard of reality Rx.
For all the nonsense about fascist hard right parties, John Howard was a profligate spender in terms of social welfare and health, for example. Indeed, Mr Howard was hardly an exhibitor of conservative economic thinking – i.e. rationalising government services and spending.
No GP-
an ‘argumentee’ is the opponent.
And I think that while you are a hoot and all, you are not for one minute serious. (It was the line about discrimination against the rich that finally nailed you- even JWH would not be so silly.)
So, out with it: William, Adam ..who are you??
Howard famously self-admitted to being “the most conservative leader the Liberals ever had”.
I say, “closest to fascist” in intent, especially given the ulterior agenda of WorkChoices FascistChoices.
No 37
Jennifer, I urge you to consult the dictionary with respect to the definition of discrimination.
There is nothing silly about highlighting material facts.
No 38
Your continuing references to fascism are both unwarranted and inappropriate. The world’s most notorious fascist, Adolf Hitler, wilfully exterminated millions of people. No leader or party can scarcely be compared with such an obscenity of nature.
GP@30
“But the reality is that despite dwindling membership (and subsequent fees) of unions, the ALP accrued a sizeable swing in its favour to take government.”
because most people had had enough of the lies and deceit,also worth noting is that the right wing drift of the liberal party just opens the centre up more and more for the labor party
so the challenge now for the libs is somehow become relevant,representative and realtime
adopting worst/serfchoices proved that the menzian ethos had benn thrown on the bbq of vanity and egotism
some intellectual rigour and and clearly identified standarads would also help
oh by the way would sorry day have happened if howard was pm
There have been plenty of fascists in history besides Hitler. I find it inappropriate that you have drawn that monster’s name into this.
Generic Person, again I have to say to you, on the seeming basis of your own superior economic management, see the recent article by Stephen Mayne, in Crikey, on how good these guys are ( rhe LNP, that is), I haven’t got the link, but if you go to Crikey and track back, you will find it. If you want to. Frankly, I think you’re just a troll and and unable or unwilling to engage in real debate
GP and Rx,
Please, if you want to engage in a slangfest, do so elsewhere.
On topic:
Two points of bad news for Rudd –
1. This poll is irrelevant at present (unless a DD happens, which it may yet)
2. Backlash over the apology may strike. Many support it, but many also oppose it.
Jennifer????
do I know you?
only my mother (and a select few others) have ever called me that.
No 41
Everyone here is using “right wing” quite liberally, but illegitimately in this case.
If your main point of reference is WorkChoices, then I would suggest it hardly is a demonstration of “extreme right wing” economic philosophy given that it imposed more regulation on businesses. The legislation was complex and difficult to manoeuvre and did not espouse free market ideals at all.
I suspect not. Though the results of his proposed referendum might have changed his mind.
GP #38,
Other fascists much less overtly vile:
Juan Peron (Argentina)
Benito Mussolini (Italy; founder of Fascism)
Francisco Franco (Spain)
Agusto Pinochet (Chile)
etc, etc.
Hitler was the worst face of Fascism. Don’t dog-whistle your opponent by stating that Fascist=Hitler. It doesn’t, although all fascists are vile.
FACT:
Today’s Liberal Party is far to the right of Robert Menzies.
FACT:
Today’s ALP is about where Menzies was.
FACT:
The hard-Right of the Liberal Party is irrelevant and noxious to the electorate, as evidenced by the fact that the only hard-Right MHRs have gotten into Parliament by stabbing sitting members in the back in ultra-safe Liberal seats (Alex Hawke, anyone?)
CONCLUSION:
If the Liberal Party wishes to regain electoral support, it must rid itself of this drift to the Right.
No 42
How absurd. It is disingenuous to suggest the notion of fascism is completely separable to Adolf Hitler.
The IR Coward~ “I am an economic radical but a social conservative.” [Rx emphasis]
http://www.smh.com.au/news/federal-election-2007-news/prime-mover/2007/11/19/1195321650843.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
7 BMWofVictoria – you’ve been reading the Herald Sun again haven’t you? You must learn to take that rag with a grain of salt. You will be given ONE day without a medical certificate.
48
“separable to Adolf Hitler.”
what an abomination of the Queen’s english old chap.
No 47
Are you suggesting that the modern ALP approves of massive regulation of financial markets, exports and imports?
Honestly, you’re rather conspicuous shouting of “FACT” does not enhance the validity of your nonsense.
GP
See a doctor.
And do not put words into my mouth.
I did not “suggest the notion of fascism is completely separable to Adolf Hitler”.
You, on the other hand, projected fascism as completely inseparable from Hitler.
There are all shades of fascists.
Troll.
No 49
Nevermind what Mr Howard said, since the practical reality of his economic policy is not one which espouses free market ideals and small government.
EDIT SPELLING For 52: your not you’re (again) bloody stupid autocorrect.
GP #52,
I am more looking at the ALP’s social policies than the economic policies. To compare economic policies from the 50s to the economic policies of today is comparing apples and oranges.
Menzies implemented economic policies that were broadly centrist, by the standards of the day. This, in large part, is why he was so successful that he was able to leave politics at a time of his choice.
The ALP of today is implementing economic policies that are broadly centrist, by the standards of today.
Generic Person, I agree with Mattew Cole. The points you seem to want to advance have no resonance here. Try Andrew Bolt. You appear to think he is of some relevance.
Other, on the apology, Matthew. I would have thought that the ghastly despair and distress of the lady who was quoted by the Locum, without permission, will sink the Half Nelson. Whether or not the Viscount will make any difference, I doubt. I reckon they’re gone federally for at least 2 terms. Oh frabjous day!
54[Nevermind what Mr Howard said, since the practical reality of his economic policy is not one which espouses free market ideals and small government.]
Turn it up GP, the legislation was written by the Business Council of Australia, for the Business Council of Australia. Hardly a group that does not espouse free market ideals and small government.
Jen,
I finally saw your photo.
Hooroo Hooray!
No 56
Matthew, the ALP have implemented absolutely nothing as of yet. The economy as it currently stands is a product of a combination of 1980s reforms and the previous government.
Menzies’ success was in large part due to his ability to call snap elections when his opponents were weak.
No 58
If you are now suggesting minimal government involvement in the labour market, and thus, by logical extension, a free market, would you care to explain why WorkChoices contained an excessive amount of government oversight in the workplace as well as limits to the freedom of contract?
WorkChoices bares no resemblance to free market ideals. I think you should turn it up, steve.
61 [Menzies’ success was in large part due to his ability to call snap elections when his opponents were weak.]
That may well turn out to be another of Rudd’s strong points too with the Coalition in a state of decay.
No 63
I doubt it, given Rudd’s penchant for civility in parliament and bipartisanship.
GP #61,
True. I should have stated “The ALP has broadly centrist economic policies, by the standards of today, and will move to implement them now that Parliament has resumed.” Better?
GP@64
dont confuse civility in parliament and bipartisanship.
for shit cunning and street smarts
thats what stuffed labor with menzies dontcha know
ESJ
where’s yours?
Sorry Matthew.. I hope.
64 [given Rudd’s penchant for civility in parliament and bipartisanship.]
Don’t confuse civility and Parliamentary tactics with weakness. Anybody who winds their way to the top of a Federal Party is as tough as nails and once they get a sniff of ministerial leather are very hard to dislodge. Fool yourself at your own peril.
Well it does only seem fair – do you have an email address Jen?
70 [do you have an email address Jen?]
No, she logs on here by snail mail.
be careful of the extreme right wolves Jen
Anyone else notice how Team Troll Genericists can only bring themselves to address commenters on Mr. Bowe’s blog by number only?
Says a lot really. Naturally, it’s all our fault. See what we made them do!
Steve you misunderstand Liberal philosophy
Free market to Liberals means freedom for all but the worker…….the Rodent
ESJ
you can address me here.
And how did you find a photo of me?
You need to get some gainful employment. I believe Mr Rudd is looking for builders.
Enemy Combatant
Perhaps don’t fall the bait of answering sadistic comments ?
what else have the defeated got to offer
Jen,
You asked. From the Vic Greens web-site.
How else can I send you my photo?
But is Mr Rudd looking for activists?
You’re right of course, Ron.
Thwarted authoritarianism was never meant to be pretty.
LOL, we have extreme leftist Greens members participating and then you all have the hide to call me a fascist. Despicable hypocrisy.
Enemy Combatant
some are loosely called ‘Pauline Hansonite’ blogers
OK GP-
so Bob Brown is a fascist?!
like I said: Troll.
BTW ESJ
checked out the website. not there.
Jen , but trolls eblog from jails ?
No 81
Is it necessary to be so dense, Ms O’Connor?
My point was the fact that people willingly parade terms like “extremist” about, especially in my direction, yet we have extremists from the opposite side participating here.
Hypocrisy.
archived version Jen, you have short hair which you have colored and THAT smile
Jen , the ‘dark side’ have taken a fancy to you
One of them may be Wilson tuckey’s brother
I don’t want to complain, the rains been good and all, but could someone tell Rudd a bit more rain in Victoria, a bit less in Queensland.
Charles ,
unlike howard who had non core promises , Rudd does deliver
Rainfall will always be higher under a Federal labor government (seriously, there’s stats to prove it).
I don’t know, people, I go away for a couple of hours and not only is Geriatric Person in full froth (I TOLD you where his medication was!) but ESJ’s been let loose as well and is trying to eat his Greens.
Zoom
I accept your stats unconditionally
We need to either ignore the ‘Hansonites’ blogs or ask Williamm to create a special thread just for them ?
No 90
I don’t recall any supporters of Pauline Hanson espousing their views here Ron? Perhaps you are mysteriously delusional?
74 [Steve you misunderstand Liberal philosophy
Free market to Liberals means freedom for all but the worker…….the Rodent]
Ron, I understand it perfectly, as does Andrews,Hockey, Minchin, Howard, the Business Council and the Troll who is arguing that it is something else.
No not Pauline Hanson….Hansonites…the mid zone between Joh & Pauline
90 Ron, that would be the shortest thread in history as the the idea of creating rather than destroying is alien to the RWDB’s. They feed of everyone else, if left to their own devices they would destroy each other. It would be cannibalism.
No 92
Goodness me we have some dense people herein.
Kim Beazley Farewell Speech, reported in The Age, 20 September 2007
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/09/20/1189881652529.html
94
steve Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
90 Ron, that would be the shortest thread in history as the the idea of creating rather than destroying is alien to the RWDB’s. They feed of everyone else, if left to their own devices they would destroy each other. It would be cannibalism.
Would you like to see that 2 person thread Steve ?
The Liberal Party has oficially gone to the dogs – literally.
http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/Pages/Blogs/DogBlogs.aspx
http://www.brendannelson.com.au/Pages/Interests/Dogs.aspx
Woof
98
Frank Calabrese
Do you say that with joy or sadness Frank ?
Rx
I heard that speech but you’ve reminded me of how brillant it was
Could he have mentioned Communist Poland to Democracy via ‘Solidarity’ ??
97 I doubt it would be a two person thread. More likely one person, a couple of alter egos and a sock puppet or two. Just like a one man band really.
Ron at #99
Well remembered! He did mention Solidarity:
Kim Beazley Farewell Speech, reported in Sydney Morning Herald, 22 September 2007
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/in-departure-the-glory-that-was-missing/2007/09/21/1189881775006.html?page=fullpage
Out of interest, what are the appropriate HTML tags in order to turn a slab of text into a quote, bold or italics?
Thanks.
Frank C @ 98
In this bit on his page I think Brendan is describing not dogs, but his MP’s who didn’t boycott sorry day or read a magazine in the House:
“I love the fact that they’re gutsy, affectionate, low maintenance and less of a problem if you take them to a mate’s place. “
Gary says:
So that’s a fourteen month honeymoon now is it?
Of course this means even less than Morgans meant pre-election, but you’ld have to think that a poll taken post-Wednesday would be even better than this one taken pre-Wednesday…
ESJ. Mmmmmmmmaaaatttttttteeeeeeeee. This is getting creepy. That is your obsession with Jen.
Jen please be careful that he finds out no more about you or else your undies might start to disappear from your laundry line!
ESJ please get back to politics & STOP cyber stalking.
Generic Person at #102
Google is your friend (and red herrings too?)
Out of interest, what are the appropriate HTML tags in order to turn a slab of text into a quote, bold or italics?
with < instead of [ and > instead of ]
(if that sentence doesnt work I mean the triangular brackets on the , and . keys)
Hell Martin B , now we are going to get Howard’s speechs quoted back to us
We thought the nightmare was gone
Interesting.
Compared to first preferences at the election this poll says:
-FF have decreased by .5% to only 1.5%
-Greens have decreased by only .3% to stay virtually the same as before at 7%plus.
-”Others” seem to be about the same.
-Which means that nearly all of the massive increase of more than 10% by the ALP seems to have transferred directly from the Coalition [can one really call such a disunited group a coalition?].
And I suspect Rudd’s current approval rating would be through the roof and the ALP to have marginally improved even further in the last few days.
Double dissolution soon anyone?
I think not.
108 Don’t think so Ron, he’s never understood a word anyone here has ever told him.
Fred@109
good point re the DD option
at the moment the libs are like a little kitten chasing a ball of wool across the floor to one side of the room and back again.
Every now and again Rudd comes in and gives the ball a gentle push.
Why spoil the kittens fun.
Thanks Martin B
testing 2
testing 3
No 110
You never had the flair or clarity perhaps?
true Steve ….but he’s testing as we speak !
People who love St Kevin of OZ
Me
Stolen Generations
Jose Ramos-Horta
Xanana Gusmao (what a big warm hug that was!)
and even the Dalai Lama
Dear Kev, good onya – Dalai Lama
By Mark Schliebs
February 15, 2008 06:36pm
KEVIN Rudd didn’t only win over Australians with his apology to Aboriginal people: he earned the praise of one of the world’s most respected spiritual leaders – the Dalai Lama.
The Dalai Lama was so tickled-pink with the new prime minister’s commitment to reconciliation, Mr Rudd’s office received a letter outlining the Buddhist leader’s approval.
“I was very encouraged to hear on the news about the apology you made in parliament to all Aborigines for laws and policies that ‘inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss’ upon them,” His Holiness wrote.
“Overall, this was a timely, appropriate and civilised thing to do.
“Although, of course, this is not a matter in which I have any direct concern, because you and I know each other, I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate this kind gesture.”
Vera you have clearly good taste & interllect !
Gusface , like a little kitten ?…..what happened to the rodent ..(s)
Fred/Gusface…does the Poll predict Senate numbers in a DD as the Libs have 37 to 34 over Labor there & without a DD it may take 6 years to reverse ?
Cheers Ron
114 [but he’s testing as we speak !]
Has been for years,
touche
B.S. Fairman Fagin steve Kirribilli Removals BMWofVictoria Enemy Combatant charles dizzystuff Mr Squiggle Thank Gough Frank Calabrese Troll MayoFeral Darryl gary bruce après Rx gusface Mathew Cole harry snapper jen esj charles zoom Generic Person Ron Martin B Aussieguru01 Fred
Even sorrier, do I feel. Having just caught up with today’s sorry. A sad Australian, humiliated and outraged at the use of her story.
Courtesy, Brendan Nelson. Again! Disgraced in his entrapped position.
Lifelines from Kevin will only work, if Brendan allows himself to be pulled across the divide, defying the attempts of his fellows on the opposite shore to drag him down.
They will not help him, up or back.
They care neither for him nor Australia.
Be rescued, Brendan Nelson.
Leave the Libs. They hate you.
You could lead an exemplary life. If you would just do itl
Aunty Fay you’re referring to Crikey ?
Kevin07 in his speech quoted a stolen story because HE spoke to her on Sunday
Brendon in his speech quoted a stolen story he had not spoken to at all and then took her fathers comments out of context to justify taking Aunty Fay away
It seems Brendon’s speech writer and/or researcher should be sacked
Ron no one Story of forced removal tells the entire picture IMHO. That episode in history is far more complex than is argued by the left.
Ron
the rodent has gone, i love pina colada’s like nobody else :0
leave the kitten playing with the the ball of wool-it cant do any harm outside the house
if by trying to lift our standards we can encourage others too as well then i say well and good
labor has given this nation its soul back and by its softly softly approach will smooth the way to a more open caring society that can intelligent discuss points of view.
not all will agree with everything but the chance to voice our opinion again unfettered by political dogma should lead us back to the pre-eminence and respect we once had on the world stage in so many areas.
Crikey
Brendan could do some good in the libs and actually may be able to inject a bit of culture shock before too late-otherwise its the long dark night of the soul…
As i indicate, Ron. Brendan should get out of his invidious position. Glen at 122 is reinforcing the point.
Gusface no matter how badly Labor ran Australia for 13 years under Keating and Hawke we Liberals never said that you’d taken away Australia’s soul.
And even when we apologise for the forced removals we’re again told we’re trying to take away the country’s soul get over yourself.
No 124
The woman is over exaggerating for no reason. What a ridiculous thing to say: “I feel like I’ve been stolen all over again”.
Glen, you’re an upstanding member of society. Hear hear to your words of wisdom.
but clearly not yet a full member of the ‘Hansonites’
glen
i voted for that !@#$$%^&&***((())(*&^%$#$@@@!@#$%$^&**(())(*&^%#@@!#$$%$ john winston howard and the !@!@!@$%^&*()())__)_+_+_(_*_)& liberals till Rudd appeared on the scene
so dont lecture anyone here or presume they are leftards or rightards.
admit your party was morally bankrupt and captive of extreme ideology and it will
energise both yourself and your party.
be open to why people voted as they did
what did howard do that made you cry with pride to be an australian
Glen – One doesn’t begin by pronouncing about the awful experience of others, either in individual, cases or generally. That’s what got Brendan into trouble.
When allegations are made, the first thing you do is you listen carefully and objectively to the people who say they were victims. Take their evidence, and a picture will emerge. This was done in the case of allegations of forced separation from aboriginal communities and reported on in detail ten years ago, and the picture certainly emerged.
Whatever you think, there are a lot of people who feel their lives have been trampled on.
Now, to say to those people as you are effectively doing, “But wait a minute, you are not entitled to feel the way you do, because the people who hurt you were well intentioned.” is grossly unreasonable on any moral level.
No 128
He waged war against mindless pathetic leftard bullshit. There you have it. Crude, but succint.
No 129
That’s because they’ve always been made to feel like victims through the policies of successive governments.
gusface.
I doubt very much that the Libs will learn the meaning of ’soul’ anytime soon. They may begin to realise, over the next, say three years, once the Senate is again in the hands of the populace, that the people are interested, and that we matter.
And may be more so once the Government and the Parliament, in the first place, the Reps, are seen to be responsive to the, yes I know, ‘will of the people.’
Something of which is already in the air. I breathe, too.
i never said that but the fact is most removals were done by well intentioned people you cannot hide away that fact, it doesnt make removals for no reason any better they just make it easier to understand the situation.
Howard’s intervention in East Timor made me proud to be an Australian and helping to give democracy to the Iraqis and Afghanis as well just so you know Gusface.
“Howard waged war against mindless pathetic leftard bullshit”
and he lost !!!
and he lost his own seat !!!
and he has lost his political legacy now
and you have lost any culture…oh dear
Gp@130
your words give away your feelings
see the leftards and the rightards are both responsible for the aboriginal problem
to move forward in any area/issue you acknowledge guilt and take measures to ensure it doesnt happen again,this requires both maturity and compassion
and one word “sorry”
to wage war against mindless pathetic leftard bullshit you might as well use a kitten as a political party
enjoy the ball of wool
Glen – They were well intentioned people – they could easily have been members of my family. But with the benefit of a few decades they can be seen to have been wrong wrong wrong. Just as the White Australia policy, with the benefit of a few decades, can also now be seen to be wrong wrong wrong.
The term ‘well intentioned’ means nothing. The point is the EFFECT of the actions, well intentioned or not, on large numbers of people.
I mean the doctors who injected thalidomide into pregnant women at around the same time were ‘well intentioned” too. That doesn’t mean that the everyone should withhold sorrow for the children born with deformities.
Surely, you must get the point.
gusface then you must also be sorry for the left’s political correctness that has helped foster the current child abuse taking place in aboriginal communities.
Glen
“Howard’s intervention in East Timor made me proud to be an Australian and helping to give democracy to the Iraqis and Afghanis as well just so you know Gusface.”
pride in being a pawn as part of a regional geopolitical chess game?
we did what was required lab or lib it would have occurred
anything else?
Glen how has the left’s political correctness fostered the current child abuse? The right was in power for over 11 years and Howard won the ‘culture wars’ (for a while).
if it had not been for this fear of removing children from any circumstances we may have been able to protect some of the children who have and continue to be abused in some aboriginal communities but we’ve all be scared into doing nothing thanks to political correctness gone mad from the Left!
139
Chris in LDN
Howard won the ‘culture wars’ (for a while)
every sembalance of ‘howardism’ will be removed by Rudd
and Howard consigned to a historical oddity
Glen@137
childrens welfare is not new no
“The entrepreneurialism of Dr Thomas Barnardo finds an echo in many youth, community and voluntary organizations in which informal educators function. His methods – the use of outreach, the emphasis on education and training, and upon creating an environment where the well-being of the child or young person comes into focus are also familiar. He also professed a concern for the whole person (although just how he interpreted it is a matter of some debate). ”
this is from the 1870’s in england -the point being that it aint a “black problem”
the issue is that a GRAVE injustice occurred under fed gvt policy continously since in effect Federation (Nb i did not mention either party)
once we accept that simple idea then as a nation we can heal that dark part of our history
ps you know i have raved about canada before-check out their relations with their indigenes ,not perfect but certainly food for thought
Gusface #128,
That sounds familisr. In 2001, I voted for Howard because I didn’t want an inexperienced government just after 9/11. In 2004, I voted for Howard because the alternative was Latham. In 2007 – Kevin all the way. After WorkChoices, I vowed “I will never vote for the Liberal Party again”. Thus far, the “new and inproved” Liberal Party has done nothing to make me reevaluate my decision.
GP #130,
Having watched you and your opponents in action for some time, my considered advice to you is : grow up. If you want to sway opinions towards you, you are certainly going about it the wrong way.
Ron at 141
I realise that all that will removed by rudd. Part of what I liked about Rudd’s speech was his rebuttal of Howard’s arguments.
Btw, it was covered on the BBC’s main news bulletin fora bout 5 mins, which is more coverage than I’ve seen “international statesman” JWH get in the past 5 years. Even his visits to London were ignored by the press here, if I didn’t read Australian papers online you wouldn’t know he had even been. Which shows how ridiculous it is that QEII is our head of state. But that’s the next battle to be fought.
And Kev’s just the man to do it.
Glen at 140
“we’ve all be scared into doing nothing thanks to political correctness gone mad from the Left!”
I can’t believe it’s not bull-butter…..
Mathew Cole
im ashamed to say it
but if its wasnt for Howard (and worstchoices) i would never have blogged.
so i suppose i owe him on two accounts
though i hope to redeem myself
Gusface…..you are forgiven ….we believe in compassion on the ‘bright’ side
145
Chris in LDN
Glen is still a JWT disciple but not a ‘jHasonite’ and so can be redeemed for salvation
No 146
Don’t worry, I shall be commemorating his forthcoming knighthood and have the pleasure of dubbing him Sir John Howard.
Ron
ta muchly
dont get me wrong i know a hell of alot of libs who have compassion -its time for them to start to regain their party.
helps democracy to have balance and consensus i feel
Gp@149
“Don’t worry, I shall be commemorating his forthcoming knighthood and have the pleasure of dubbing him Sir John Howard.”
holy fatbuck fellow bloggers
her maj is blogging here now
No 150
I agree, gusface. In the end, as much as we’d all love to see the crushing of our opposing ideologies, we must at least respect that we all have the entitlement to elect governments without fear of reprimand or violence. Furthermore, reasonable oppositions make for reasonable governments.
Gusface at 150:
yep – the libs are like the tories were here in the UK after they lost power. they’ll spend the next 3 years bleating because they don’t understand they lost power because the electorate has moved on. Then the next three years trying to find out what the electorate has moved on to. Then finally they’ll be competitive again.
But while Nelson misjudgesthe mood like he did on Wednesday, and they carp about things like not getting the text early enough, (Hello – you’re the opposition?!?! You don’t govern anymore – you get what you’re given) and the extreme right holds the rest of the party to hostage, it’s going to be a lot of fun to watch
Karma and all that 
Howard & Bruce …the only 2 sitting PM’s to ever lose their own seats
and both knighted
guess the English reward failures
“Don’t worry, I shall be commemorating his forthcoming knighthood and have the pleasure of dubbing him Sir John Howard.”
Don’t swing that sword too hard now……
No 153
Chris in LDN, if the Tories have become competitive again, it certainly isn’t of their own doing in England. Gordon dishing out 30 quid a week to get kids to go to school, dole money to lose weight, social welfare for this, social welfare for that, as if in a trance of insufferable arrogance that his people are too stupid to make their own choices.
Good riddance to “New Labor” when the next English election arrives.
152
Generic Person Says:
February 16th, 2008 at 2:39 am
reasonable oppositions make for reasonable governments.
but earlier said
130
Generic Person Says:
February 16th, 2008 at 1:40 am
No 128
Howard waged war against mindless pathetic leftard bullshit. There you have it. Crude, but succint
very consist views from the ‘right’ as usual
No 157
I never said that the ALP was a reasonable opposition so my views are perfectly consistent Ron. Don’t put words into my mouth.
GP at 156
‘dole money to lose weight, social welfare for this, social welfare for that’ ???
You need to check your facts. The Tories under cameron are pro-gay, pro-green and matching Labours spending on education and the NHS. they have moved to the centre . And Labour ain’t been ‘New Labour’ since Tony left. Labour has has made this society much more socially progressive than it was 15 years ago.
No 159
LOL, so socially progressive that there is a mass exodus of ex-pat British citizens travelling to Australia!
I have two British colleagues who wouldn’t dare return to the UK.
No 159
Also:
Cash Carrot for obese people to lose weight
This is the legacy of “new labour”, where the government tells you what to think, how to live and even pays you for the privilege.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article3238697.ece
GP – We were discussing why the Tories are competitive politically again – if you recall? Primarily becuase they have moved to the centre ground of politics. You disagree? Please prove otherwise.
“Obese and overweight adults in England could be paid to lose weight under plans being considered by the Government.”
So you have a problem with reducing the strain on health services? If a program costs less then the effects of obesity to the NHS, I don’t see the problem.
‘I have two British colleagues who wouldn’t dare return to the UK.’
I know about 30 Australians who wouldn’t return to Autralian while the Liberals were still in power. Your point?
Mathew Cole at #143
I’m going to have to do a Ruddster here. Me too!!
I was politically non-aligned till WorkChoices. Did not care much either way who won. Voted either way with no commitment to or against either side.
Now I will never vote Liberal again. I am now an anti-Liberal voter.
No compromise.
No 165
Of course, what is funny Chris, the Tories are running on a similar platform that Howard ran on throughout his period in government. Particularly schemes like welfare to work, which are almost universally chastised by the “social progressives” in Australia. Of course, one would assume that their virulent opposition to welfare to work entails “social progression” as a life on benefits rather than a life working.
Gp, what is funny that you never argue a point that been’s made aginst your argument. If you recall it was ‘The Tories under Cameron are pro-gay, pro-green and matching Labours spending on education and the NHS. They have moved to the centre . ‘ That is not the platform Howard ran on, far from it. W2W might be, but that’s where the similarity ends.
What a magnificent boost it will be to the Australian Republic push if the Rodent is, in fact, knighted.
It would say it all!
That was my thought exactly BK.
At the rest of repetition, Rudd has been fostered engagement more than honeymoon. Not long till we get the 100 days reviews?
Reading Mungo MacCallum’s Poll Dancing. Get a copy while you can!
141[if it had not been for this fear of removing children from any circumstances we may have been able to protect some of the children who have and continue to be abused in some aboriginal communities but we’ve all be scared into doing nothing thanks to political correctness gone mad from the Left!]
Glen, you forgot that your alterego, Generic Person wrote the same sentiments yesterday morning. It makes no more sense just because you forgot and wrote under the name of Glen today.
As I pointed out to your better half, GP, yesterday, the Stolen Generations preceded ‘political Correctness’.
Just which bit of the ‘left’s political correctness scares you into doing nothing’. Sounds like a barking mad explanation from the right to me especially when you had the luxury of the numbers in both houses for years.
Read Tony Wright’s piece,’ The Rudd identity’ in today’s Age for an excellent account of the first week of parliament:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/the-rudd-identity/2008/02/15/1202760597274.html
Steve
As I pointed out to your better half, GP yesterday…
‘halves’….there is an odd couple
and Glen presently is only a probationary member of the ‘jHansonites’
yep BK knighthood for the rodent , he will have finally reached parity with Kerr
There now appear to be calls for an aopolgy or recognition from the monarch for the stolen generations.
About ten years ago after the stolen generations report came out and Howard refused an apology by the government I said to my father that the main reason for the Howard government refusing an apology would be that logically the monach would then have to offer the same apology as it was her governments at the state and federal level that implemented her governments policies.
Thus Howards prime reason for refusing the apology was to save face for the monarch not any sense of right or wrong or compensation. Funny enough if Howard had not killed off the republic he may not have left the monarch open to the calls today for an apology from her.
The further irony of it all is that prince Charles believes Australia should have become a republic years ago and may well be repulsed by the knowledge that Howards prime motivation towards the stolen generation was more to try and curry favour with the monarchy than concern and sympathy for what had happened.
Think Howard will get any sort of recognition from the monarch, “For refusing an apology to the stolen generation for the past 11 years so as to save possible embarrassment to her maj I dub thee sir tossalot”?
Yeah for sure, change hands and keep fantasising.
176
Many people have been emailing the Queen’s secretary to protest the consideration of a knighthood for the former PM.
A well placed inquiry will put paid to any ambition by that person.
Memo to ESJ.
I do not like the fact that you are making reference to my appearance, name and so on.
I have never hidden my identity and anyone who wanted to could have checked out my details as a candidate at the last election. Perhaps some did: I have no idea.
You are crossing the line though.
This site is a blog for political discussion and I enjoy being part of it, but we all respect the fact that we are not known to each other personally, although over time many of us have revealed some personal information about ourselves. This has been treated with respect without exception as far as I know, and I ask that you do the same.
Also – I am sure this is of completely no interst to anybody else, so stop it.
Aussieguru1-
thanks.
Well said Jen. Cyberharassment is still harassment. ESJ has really crossed the line in my opinion.
Thanks too apres.
it’s creepy: i have no idea who this person is, where they live, etc. Obviously I was too trusting in my decision to not disguise who I am, but I figured a political site should be OK.
And moving right along…
I’m wondering if Workchoices will push the under 35’s towards the ALP long term like Vietnam push the boomers towards the ALP for it appears here at least that we have several long term Liberal voters now refusing to vote that way in the near future.
The Government has been in office for about 80 days if when we remove the Christmas/new year period is more like 60 days this Government has started very well sure there are some possible question marks but if PM Rudd can manage the period up to budget time and the cuts are made in a sensible fashion and the Liberals continue to be a joke then PM Rudd looks set for a long reign.
ESJ, mate I suggest you are careful while your intend may be harmless, Cyper-stalking or harrassment is not about your intent its how the other person sees it therefore if Jen feels Creeped then you should as I’m sure you will take that as a hint to chill
You know, Mexican Beemer, for a self proclaimed “trained historian”, Eddy doesn’t seem to have much of a life. Being a blog-fly is one thing, but creeping women out is the act of an obsessive uber-authoritarian coward. A coward who obviously hasn’t seen the film “The Lives of Others”, however, I’ll wager Eddy is a big fan of the movie “Sliver”. More his speed, really.
Get a life, Eddy!
There are 4 pages of letters in the Border Mail today (normally 1) with almost all of them condemning Sophie Mirrabella’s actions re tha Apology.
As well, a half page ad signed by over 200 people saying Sorry and stating that they do not endorse her views.
Never seen a reaction like it, from one of the nation’s most conservative electorates.
(155 Ron Says: February 16th, 2008 at 2:44 am Howard & Bruce …the only 2 sitting PM’s to ever lose their own seats and both knighted guess the English reward failures)
This is the same England that knighted it’s cricket team who have not won a test series since and knighted David Beckham
Jen @ 186 – Is there any chance of a local respected person standing as an independent and taking on Mirrabella next time – e.g. like Peter Andren in Calare or Tony Windsor in New England?
185 Enemy Combatant
(Mexican Beemer)
That’s Gold
Jen
I didn’t know that you were a Greens candidate…the Greens and the Wilderness Society figure highly in the scheme of things in my project.
Their assistance and input is imperative to achieve development with minimal disturbance to environmentally sensitive areas and they must be identified before the northern rail network route is identified.
My goal is to establish the foundation and have a member from all the players on the board with senatorial oversight to maintain accountability…this has to transcend the political divides if we are to develop and overcome the challenges before us.
All the groundwork and submissions are complete…now it’s a matter of timing.
Mirrabella’s stand (or lack of it) last Wednesday is being discussed on a Footy Forum of all things.
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=414706
187 BM – And the Oscar Wilde of the then Australian team, Shane Warne, said to England’s Paul Collingwood in a sledge in the Sydney test “You got an MBE, right? For scoring seven at the Oval? It’s an embarrassment,”
JWH would be the equivalent, although he wouldn’t even be selected in any test team of political leaders in the first place.
188
well CL,
personally I’m hoping to see a Green’s win!
scaper-
not sure how you missed my political affiliations: seemed to be course of constant irritation to a number of PB’s throughouut the campaign!
As I’ve said earlier I await with interst your proposal.
Baby cheeses, Scaper! What’s wrong with you? You don’t want to see JWH in stockings and a garter? I reckon it’d be about on par with the “Welease Bwian” scene from the Life of Brian. Can’t you see it? 62.5% of the population rolling on the floor laughing their heads off?
Jen @ 194 – [As I’ve said earlier I await with interst your proposal.]
Surely, after last night’s near-miss, this is not the time to invite a proposal
Oh OK-
I knew I’d cop some flack.
All proposals welcomed, as long as they are in relation to saving us from global warming, preventing the re election of a Republican in the US, and how to encourage George (C) to attend next thursday’s rally in Wangaratta.
Jen
I knew you were alligned with the Greens, but not a running member…also I get around the blogs and at times I miss out, due to spreading myself too thin.
I also have to find the time to run my business and get the project up and running.
‘Snapper’
Now I’m having visions of Mr Magoo with his armour and sword on a crusade of moral justice for all…oh deary me!
good to see you back scaper.
178
Jen Says:
February 16th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Your rebuke to ESJ was too generous
perhaps as a cultured lady thats your strongest
Most blogers would be very uncomfortable that your space & privacy has been violated & feel as I do embarassed for you ..we do wish you to leave the blog
So perhaps ESJ can rectify by simply giving an ‘apology’
(on a lighter note Jen , ESJ opposes an ‘apology’ to the stolen generation so perhaps you could get lucky)
correction NOT
Page turned over as I bloged…repeated
200
Ron Says:
February 16th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
178
Jen Says:
February 16th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Your rebuke to ESJ was too generous
perhaps as a cultured lady thats your strongest
Most blogers would be very uncomfortable that your space & privacy has been violated & feel as I do embarassed for you .we not do wish you to leave the blog
So perhaps ESJ can rectify by simply giving an ‘apology’
(on a lighter note Jen , ESJ opposes an ‘apology’ to the stolen generation so perhaps you could get lucky)
Jen
The Great Southern Cross Consultancy neither confirms or denies the science of climate change…as I related to Ross Garnaut, that would be divisive.
Development to a view of sustainability will be a better strategy to get the consensus needed for a fifty year project.
scaper
the Greens position is that climate change is a terrible reality that needs to be addressed immediately.
Your consultancy is free to put whatever position you choose, but you need to be aware that we are non-negotiable on this point.
Sorry Jen – couldn’t let that opportunity pass.
Positive contribution to make up for it –
I don’t know anything about the rally at Wangaratta but it would be a great chance to put the boot into the local member would it not? I encourage steel capped boots be worn, metaphorically speaking, and make her a laughing stock. Not too many adjectives and adverbs, but good solid incontravertible factual stuff on the true history, with stolen individuals or their families hopefully there in person to back it up. It’s all about how they feel, and Sophie P will look cruel and silly for trying to tell people they don’t have the right to feel the way they clearly and genuinely do. Read Sophie P’s words back to her and keep asking her rhetorical questions as you go through – she won’t be there I guess. If she is, even better.
Jen
Yes, I know that but…I hardly think they will object to a project that improves the environment and addresses their issues.
Anyway they will support it if it is done in a responsible manner…as John Dodd has related to me.
Sophie , the ‘lame duck’ member…….that’s one super surprise seat for Labor ?
Scaper , the UN 400 Scientists Panel say the tipping ppoint of irreversibilty is now the 2030’s. Even for those that support ‘clean’ nuclear power there is now insufficent time to build the required number for the industrialised West alone
Regardless of Sophie Mirrabela performance this week she wont lost Indi, to show how safe it is in the Brackside the state seats covering Indi remained Liberal
Jen,
As I recall you confirmed you were the No2 Senate Candidate for the Greens last year to Adam and you promised at the time to post a photo.
I found the photo on an archived version of the Greens site, you said yesterday comments to the effect that I should show my photo hence I said give me an email address and I would do so.
You seemed to doubt that I had seen the photo in your comments so I described it in general terms.
If you have taken any offense I sincerely apologise.
So there!
AG01 – your reference last night – whoa! I wonder about YOUR imagination.
ESC ” So there! ”
the ‘claytons’ apology……….where is the heart in it
Sounds like the sort of “apology”one could expect from a “Liberal”.
No 204
Anthropogenic global warming estimates is an inexact science, and further, I doubt whether humans have the capacity to change global weather patterns.
Who’s John Dodd, Scaper?
Oh look, ESJ and GP the two-headed troll have both popped up again at about the same time. Must be tired because they were up past their bedtime last night.
No 214
You seem troubled apres, with all your inconsequential banter.
ESJ
enough said now. we’re moving on.
scaper-
can’t comment as I still don’t know what you are referring to, but as I’ve said am looking forward to the unveiling!
I wonder how great the Southern Cross will appear to the citizens of Tuvalu when, due to strategic (or philosophical) even-handedness on global warming, they are forced to view it from beneath the sea.
John is the secretary to a Greens senator.
Inner Westie
If this comes to pass…we will accomodate them.
What will be the next boom after mining???
Inner westie
according to my trusty tiger annual of 1962 we by now should have megacities under the oceans and regular trips to the moon
at least half came true
scaper
In Villawood?
Permaculture, Scaper?
There were reasons Mirabella had one of the biggest swings against her (7%) in Victoria!
Today’s Border was an interesting read, to say the least.
Actually, nanotechnology could be pretty good too and there was a physics boffin on the Science show today, who’se group in the U.K. has been doing some remarkable work on using magnetised fluids for cooling. She said the work was close to being commercially viable in big scale projects, such as buildings. Might need it for the planet, come to think of it.
Good on you ESJ. Not too small to apologies to Jen. Yes my imagination has relevant irrelevance but its on the side of Truth, Justice & the Australian way!
We have cities under the sea!
Homer was right, under the sea, under the sea
ARBIE
Howard may receive “the Order of the Garter”
“Each June, the Knights of the Garter meet at Windsor Castle and witness any new knights take the oath as they are invested with the insignia.
A spectacular lunch is hosted by the Queen before the knights, wearing long blue velvet robes and black velvet hats with white plumes, attend a service at the historic St George’s Chapel.
Each of the knights are also required to display a banner of his arms in the Chapel, along with a helmet, crest and sword plus an enamelled stallplate ”
Dolly would not be out of place there
Ron, Please see my post at 195!
Eddy at 209, jolly half decent of you, old chap. Moving right along it is then.
—————————————————
Ubiquitous Genericist at 212, 215 et cetera, if you are going to persist in addressing people by their number of entry alone, which many of us feel is arrogant, then please consider the implication of each of your comments starting with a negative, to wit, “No”.
Most of the young Libs with whom I’ve had acquaintance at least are aware that the diminutive of “number” is “No.”
You are the kind of generic troll where a full-stop, id est, “.”, could actually make the world of difference.
Until you civilise yourself up a lttle, Sunshine, I propose that you be ignored.
No 229
No 229
The mysterious absence of the period is unintentional and not designed to insight controversy or any aura of arrogance.
Enemy Combatant, we had been ignoring the generic orifice! S/he can’t spell either!
*edit spelling: incite. oh dear god.
Right you are then, Monica, see what you mean. Henceforth consider me a fellow brushor, at least until the brushee changes tune.
The thing that gets up my nostril, E.C., is that generic orifice appears to think that if s/he simply states something like s/he doubts that humans could alter the climate, we’re supposed to accept it as if some god given truth. No evidence, no facts, nada. Clearly, s/he was away from school the day they did debating.
As I was going up the stairs
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I love em when they get that way
With apologies to either Hillaire Belloc or Ogden Nash, it must have been one of them…
We are all that man on the stairs.
The point is, why all the ascerbity in the comments being posted? Is it not possible to separate the polemic from the persona?
If you don’t agree, argue the opposite. If you are appalled by the argument, ignore the proponent.
I really think we can all take a leaf from the book of the much maligned Lawyers: in adversity strive mightily for your cause, but eat and drink as friends.
I don’t think I have come across a poster here who hasn’t had something of interest to say and hasn’t had conviction in his position. Why abuse or denigrate him or her? Surely the weakness in their stance will be obvious to all intelligent people, if there is indeed a weakness?
Lighten up fellows, keep up the good natured banter, but let’s keep the vitriol corked.
Yes, ma’am. Attempting to educate a “bad mug” is fraught with difficulties way beyond the communication skills of mere mortals like us.
If the rodent got a knigthood can you just imagine Lady Hyacinth!
Fulvio, Ascerbic is very enjoyable, much like revenge served icy cold, with a dash of snark.
Enemy Combatant, your communication skills are second to none.You’ve just got to get out of the trenches!
Remember the WW1 story of the Tommys and the Germans meeting in no mans land and sharing cigarettes and Carols one Christmas?
Well, Generic Person ain’t no Kaiser Bill!
It seems that the Queen has a sense of humour.
I’ll try again.
Ah that’s it. I used the 2nd time.
BK, I’m waiting for 62.5% of the populace to do the scene from “Welease Bwian”, should Betty Windsor have the sublime sense of the absurd to do it. Actually, given Prince Chuck’s sense of humour, perhaps we could petition him to talk her into it. Betty’s husband already thinks we’re a bunch of drongos for not voting for a Republic when we previously had a chance. Ah, but of course, there was the weasel worded Howard to contend with that time round. How wondrous that next time he’ll be off on some speaking engagement with other neo-cons who can’t figure out why no-one will give them the time of day anymore
Fulvio, Generic Person has the debating skills of a gnat. Mostly, when I visit PB, I just ignore the rubbish that gets posted here from time to time, including my own. It’s just that if you actually read through a thread sometimes, there may be a discussion developing between people who know something about the topic being discussed, and then up will pop GP (or similar) with some baseless assertion that occasionally, normally astute posters, will get drawn into, and bang goes the discussion
Who’s running the bets on how long Wayne Swan will be Treasurer before Julia Gillard gets the job?
What a lackluster performance from Swan this week. Another few of these and considering Julia Gillard’s well mastered parliamentary performances so far i doubt he’ll go much past his first budget. But who can blame him his job was gone before the election considering Combet and Shorten will pick up IR and Education when Gillard is promoted.
On the poll…bull butter especially considering it is a Morgan after all.
Glen – No you’re wrong – there was plenty of lustre – mostly in the form of glistening sweat on Swanny’s brow!
Whoops – didn’t mean to cross the floor – but there is a certain enjoyment for me in a factional slug underperforming in a real political job.
Oh , so the apprentice joins ‘Eddy’ and ‘Barney’
what an education for him
So much talent to choose between, Glen. Sure, Julia could do it. Lindsay could do it. I’ll give you this, if he doesn’t shape up, he’ll be gone. As someone else noted earlier on this thread (sorry I can’t recall who, but thought it well spotted), Rudd will skewer anyone who doesn’t perform. Have no doubt about him. If you thought JWH was a man of steel, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
250 Harry – I hope Tanner gets the guernsey if Swan compounds – he only missed out in the first place because he’s in the wrong faction – Rudd must know he’s a mile better than Swan, so there was a limit to how far he could ignore the factions. I think he could probably sack or promote whoever he likes with impunity at the moment. He will wait quite a while though for appearances sake
245
Harry ‘Snapper’ Organs Says:
February 16th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Generic Person has the debating skills of a gnat.
well he did say ‘ there is no climate change is caued by man’
Well Harry , the UN Panel of 400 worldwidw scientists should have asked gnat ?
The shame about Swan is that he has the talent, it’s his performance that is laking. He will make the right decisions but may perform poorly in the chamber, whe attacked by the opposition.
That doesn’t make him a bad treasurer just may not get the politics right.
For once I am moved to stand up for Geriatric Person (he’s a bit shaky on his feet this evening, the cocoa was a bit strong for him).
He is right – every right thinking white male knows that global warming is not caused by man, but is a direct result the feminist movement.
When did Al Gore’s old teacher start picking up indications that the CO2 levels were rising?
In the sixties.
When was Germaines book released?
The sixties.
It’s been all down hill from there. (We could probably also slate home the blame for interest rates, inflation and even JWH if we tried hard enough).
It is also women who use the appliances such as air conditioners, fridges, cars, vacuum cleaners etc which emit greenhouse gases. Men are far more eco friendly, if they had their way nothing would be cleaned up, and hot weather would be tackled by drinking more beer. Being permanently intoxicated would also mean lower use of cars, QED.
Actually, I have transgressed GPs Number One law of debating – “I have made the statement and therefore it is true” – but I, alas, unlike GP, have yet to achieve perfection.
Zoom, as a woman and a feminist I admit to it all. It’s all my fault and I’m deply sorry. How’s that for an apology?
If you want to express your opinion as to whether JWH should be honoured with the Order of the Garter, you can send a message at:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page3776.asp
Zoom, you’re a hoot. Shall we now debate the relative ecological disasters posed by the male vs, the female emanation? And at which life stage, these emanations might prove toxic?
Harry I’m deserting you my friend
I am happy to take on Mexican Beemer & Barny Gnat (plus the Apprentice) ,
I’m 100% in favour of whatever Liz , Jen & Vera views that ladies have added wonderful value to politics
(and are innocent of causing climate change….its all man’s fault)
253 Musikemp
about Swanny – if he gets the job done, I’m not sure poor parliamentary performance will be an insurmountable problem.
In fact, why should it be? I’m not aware of a direct correlation between public speaking and any measure of job performance for a large majority of the workforce.
If he does a good job with the economy, and liases well with the department of treasury, I’ll support him. Rudd isn’t great either, but he doesn’t seem to let it get in the way of getting the job done thus far.
Jaundiced View, I agree Kevvie will probably wait a while before moving anyone. Particularly from anything as front and centre as Treasury. But I have no doubt he’ll do it if needed, and it will be his view about what is needed. He’s amazing, this new PM of ours. He’s the Energiser Bunny – have absolutrly no idea how everone is going to keep up with him – I wonder could the entire public service have heart attacks? Anyway, I think Peter Garret was right, they are going to change everything. From my POV, good. Might not like all of it, but FI, it’s not JWH.
256 Apres – Thanks – message sent, with the utmost respect of course, and no strong language. Refrained from suggesting he could be honoured with the Order of the Wedge instead
Ron, Ron,
What have i done to offend you?
So long as Swan makes a fool of himself in Parliament the public wont take Labor seriously when it comes to economic management. It doesnt matter what notes Treasury gives you to talk about in Parliament which Swan wont table he cannot perform either to the media or to Parliament and will be a weakness even the Liberals in their current state can exploit. I hope he stays because he’s a joke and makes Labor look shaky on the economy id be more worried if Turnbull had to take on Tanner or Gillard.
Seriously, fellow bludgers, why on earth should anyone regard JWH getting an Order of the Garter with anything other than fall about laughing material? See Clarke and Dawe.
Glen, funny you forgot to mention the performance of the Shadow Treasurer, Malcolm Turnbull this week.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/02/pick-of-question-time-gillard.html
Glen, see post at 259. Rudd is proving to be something of a major political strategist. Aquaman’s skills lie mainly in the direction of the court house. Brendon can’t make up his mind about anything. People skills Abbott has none. If you think you have something meaningful to say about our polity, I’d encourage you to find someone, anyone, to articulate these propositions. And
no, Ted Baillieu doesn’t cut it.
JV, it’s a good deed that you did, to warn Her Maj of the opprobrium and bad thoughts that might come her way if she did honour JWH with the Order of the Garter. Imagine if you will JWH wearing black tights AND a Garter of blue and gold beneath his left knee AND a collar of 26 gold knots including a picture of St George slaying the dragon, AND a cloak of blue velvet lined with white, AND a red hood worn over the right shoulder, AND a hat with heron’s and ostrich’s feathers.
Pollbludgers and all sensible Australians would as Harry says fall about laughing, so bringing the Order of the Garter into Disrepute. God save the queen.
(And forward to the republic)
260 Harry & Ominod – It’s true there is nothing in the handbook that says every Treasurer has to be a flatulent show pony like Costello. But Swan must above all things give the appearance of complete mastery of his portfolio. Perhaps we are being a little hard on him – it is very early days! My problem is I just don’t like head-kicking factional warriers like he and Conroy, and as a result want them to stuff up.
Glen, I’m always mystified at the equation which links performance in question time with the ability to deliver.
Swan – like the rest of Kev’s team – has been there a nano second. There is very very little we can judge his performance as a Treasurer on at present. To write him off because he’s a bit shaky when it comes to answering questions is premature to say the least (I remind everyone how shaky Downer’s first year was – OK, bad example, he never improved, but people stopped picking on him, especially after his mother had a talk to the PM about it).
I can really see the guys at the pub in three years time, saying, “Oh, yes, the economy under Labor’s done better than I thought, but I saw Swan in question time the other day and he muffed a question, so he’s obviously hopeless in Treasury.”
Good old Tip himself built an entire career on being a (supposedly – I never liked his performances myself) a brilliant parliamentary performer but his credentials as a Treasurer was that he did what he was told and changed as little of Keating’s settings as he could.
Swan can continue stuffing up in Parliament til the end of time as far as I’m concerned, as long as the economy keeps chugging away OK and he doesn’t make any discernable errors.
Peter Martin, thanks for the link. Awesome person is the Julia.
Glen
just as a gentle reminder Rudd’s 2ic is swan in more ways than one
as some noted earlier and in various MSM articles,swan is and has been an integral part of “new labor”
The new field of play is not about creating mirages more to slowly dispel the myths and prejudices that built up over the howard years.
Hence a quiet unobtrusive mouse is not really going to upset anyone….
unless your a kitten trying to unroll a ball of wool.
re King malcolm- do you honestly believe beneath that bombastic and superior exterior that he seems to project ,that their is not a more egostistical interior.
A very poor performer when it comes to substance-bit like costello but in gucci not armani.
and he will constantly want to own that ball of wool
Apres – I assume all worn over an Optus tracksuit?
JV, Stephen Conroy is a fluffy little bunny and I won’t hear a word against him (well, I will, but I’ll pout).
267 – Apres. I know the vision of the ceremonial absurdities (and the Youtube spinoffs no doubt) would be priceless. I still remember the ludicrous folderol when Menzies got that gong. Howard of course would love to get the same bauble as his hero. That is sufficient reason to scuttle his bid the way I no doubt have done with my expose to HM. I also of course cleverly ingratiated myself by mentioning that I too never liked the Peoples’ Princess, and that I thought Rolf Harris’s portrait made her look too much like one of the thoroughbreds in the Royal stables.
Drat, I’ve got a bung light source, and if I try to change the light bulb, I know I’ll electrocute myself. It might be rubbish, but the last time I tried to change a bulb, I wound up across the room a bit charred. We now have a princess electrician for which we have to pay, but I don’t get charred, Bit like the Front Bench really.
271 Zoom – Sorry I pricked your balloon about Stephen (sorry, repetition – 2 ‘pri*ks’ in the same sentence) .
JV@273
Her majs last public words re aborigines
“For many indigenous Australians there remains much to be done, but I believe the unique contribution of indigenous Australia to the nation is better understood now than ever before.’
The Queen expresses her ‘admiration and affection for Australians everywhere’ during a dinner at Parliament House in Canberra, 14 March 2006.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page5108.asp
meant to include with last post
Interesting that the vacancy for the Order of the Garter is because of the death of a British Prime Minister.
‘There is currently one vacancy in the Order left by the death of another former Prime Minister, Edward Heath, but it has not yet been filled and no new Garter Knights were inducted.’
http://www.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2007/06/19/order-of-garter/
JV, I warn you, I’ll pout…
Zoom @ 279- I know, I know it’s always difficult when the truth renders meaningless a lifetime’s adoration. There will now be a period of grieving for you, but time heals all wounds, and although it seems impossible to believe now, you will in alll likelihood become attached to another, better factional warrier such as, say … ah … Joel Fitzgibbon to fill the void. At your next session we should begin with your early childhood years to work through how you became obsessed with the Conroy legend.
Glen, you make one big mistake. You assume people take an interest in parliament. Very few watch or care.
ah Gary we watch Swanisms every night on the ABC News, Swan’s bad performances can’t be hidden…
it would be my wish for Dolly to be knighted in drag because JWT will spoil it by being so solemn thinking the knighthood will impress us 7 he can recover his now disgraced legacy
282
Glen Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 12:01 am
ah Gary we watch Swanisms every night on the ABC News, Swan’s bad performances can’t be hidden
what with Mexican Beemer & Barny giving commentary ?
I can’t, Joel’s not Victorian.
Cant I just keep pining for Steve? I could sit round, like GP on a good day, with a tartan rug over my knees and mutter about how they don’t make factional warriors like they used to and suddenly say out loud when people least expect it things like “That young Tim Holding, now, he thinks he’s going somewhere, but he’s not a patch on Conroy, you mark my words” or chuckle inananely about Steve mucking up the effort to get rid of Crean (I did tell him not to do it…)
I have got it bad, haven’t I??
Looking forward to this on Monday Night
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2007/s2162492.htm
will each Frank claim they saw it coming but their advice was ignored ?????????
Zoom , the grapevine says Conroy thinks the world of you
Shrek says as much in the Promo.
Frank guess its all about each of them wishing to protect THEIR political legacy ?
(like Howard , not sure they have anything to protect given workchoices & apology & CC)
Look out for Chris Bowen in regards to the Tresuary role, his parliamentary performances wernt bad. Hes in the Right Faction and is currenty assistant tresurer. He was elected in 2004 hence he didnt have the time in opposition to get the tresuary role
Ah Zoom – next thing you know you’ll be joining the party to get closer to the object of your desires. Than it will be putting up your hand for his resolutions, next you’ll spend nights and weekends heavying delegates to conferences and committees on his behalf, after that a promise of you own seat, as long as you do the dirty work for another ten years. Then at last, in the 2040 state election you will make number 6 on the upper house ticket, and it will have all been worthwhile! What a life is mapped out for you. I envy paople who spend their lives doing something they love.
Did Wayne Swan mis-speak? Really? I noticed not a ripple anywhere. Who cares. At this point in time, less than 1 in 5 voters could name either the Treasurer or his shadow. The Glens of this world should get a hobby. It’ll be a long long time before people start noticing such things and longer still before anyone thinks they matter.
btw, I heard Chris Bowen on the wireless: very good too, I thought. Sounded straight forward and lively and several yards ahead of the interviewer…
Meanwhile, Glenn Milne is STILL on about Rubb and Brian Burke: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23227671-2,00.html
Doesn’t this creep realise the election was three months ago, and that Rudd won it?
What a truly grubby little man this Milne is.
BB is radioactive. When will the few remaining Burkist Labor figures really get the message?
Greetings foul fiends. Hope you all had a good evening of fruitful discussion. I doubt it, given the leisurely pace at which this thread has progressed.
296 GP, What’s the hurry, you’ve got a decade and a half to get used to a new government. Try not to torture yourselves with dire imaginings, we want to see both halves of GP and Glen around to cheer the tory victory in 2025 or so. A leisurely pace is a good pace when it comes to politics.
That was part of the reason the Tories lost last year. They spun out of control in major portfolio areas going faster and faster in ever decreasing circles. Areas of spin included Industrial Relations, Climate Change, nuclear power,welfare to work,foreign policy in relation to Iraq, Murray River $10 billion note on the back of an envelope etc. At some point last year they got enough spin up to be declared a self destructive hurricane.
Just last week the opposition locked themselves into a longterm continuation of this process by sending the new IR laws to a senate committee instead of letting their failed policies died and rest in piece. The sorry handling of the sorry speech by Nelson also set them on a course of more destruction rather than less.
As the opposition mouthpieces on this site, the performance of Glen and GP are appreciated as they give us insight into how well the opposition is traveling. All in all I would have to say the opposition has had a humiliating week.
Glenn, Swan is no fool, he will get the the economy back on track. He will also get the politics right in parliament. The fool is Turnbull, he continues to fail on major issues he cannot buy his way out of, such as buying his wins in his electorate.
286 Frank, re Four Corners, it should make interesting viewing, I wonder how full and frank their discussions will be. There must be some angst among them, particularly now that the reality of life on HM’s opposition benches has had time to sink in.
The question of leadership change from Howard prior election will reveal some interesting perspectives, however I don’t believe that Costello could have achieved a different result. The reality is that they were seen by the electorate as tired, complacent, arrogant, and GONE!
Steve at #297
If the tories could not win an election even though:
*) they spent up to one million dollars of public money per day on propaganda in the weeks leading up to the calling of an election date
*) they changed the electoral laws to disenfranchise young voters, first-time, recent immigrants, renters – all traditionally non-conservative voters
*) they enjoyed all the other benefits of incumbency
*) the economy was going ’strongly’ (though with a 12-year interest rate peak and a 16-year inflation peak)
*) they had a huge majority
*) losing would have put the opposition in power federally and across every state and territory
… then they should forget about trying to win government from opposition for a long time. A very long time.
On the economy, it seems that a recession is the only way to destroy the rampant levels of private consumption now prevalent in this country, leading to inflation and consequent higher and higher interest rates. Private savings are down, and amounts owing on credit cards continue to rise to record levels. Our balance of trade deficit is the elephant in the room, due mainly to sucking in consumer goods from China.
So far Australian consumers have ignored the interest rate rises and continued spending like drunken sailors. Perhaps it is time to take our medicine before it is too late, and recession becomes full-blown depression.
291
JV, joined the party, long time ago, state delegate, committee chair, vote as a non factionally aligned independent (to distinguish me from the SL aligned indepedents and whoever the other ones are who sound like they’re independents but aren’t), keep running for unwinnable seats (I’m not going to move to a winnable one).
And yes, I love it.
Conroy is a friend. He rarely asks anything of me and when he does makes it clear there’s no grudges if I don’t do what he wants.
It’s mutual – I’m always asking him for favours and kick his head if I think it needs kicking.
Factional warriors are people too.
Zoom,
I’m in your corner re Conroy.
He has already shown his great healing powers and political skills by uniting and then isolating the rabid right and the feral left regarding the porn filters issue early in January. Apparently his disorientated opponents believe in their sacred right to allow teenagers to access bestiality videos via the internet. Conroy’s victory for common sense is a sign of a great future for this pillar of decency.
And, there are encouraging signs that the Big C has tamed Telstra with his renowned negotiating skills. People will remember the Libs were reduced to a blubbering mess of inconsequence over their telecommunications policy by Telstra.
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/communications/soa/Telstra-loses-game-of-chicken-on-ADSL2-rollout/0,130061791,339285693,00.htm
There is nothing this man cannot do!
The 4 Corners will be interesting, if only to see how many others each of the interviewed blame for the Nov disaster while detailing the extraordinary things each personally did to try to head of the thumping which, uniquely, only he saw coming.
However, I suspect upcoming 7.30 Report revelations about how much damage the Howard government did to Defence will do far more harm electorally given that its always supposedly been a Coalition strong point. Horatio’s toy planes are only the tip of a huge iceberg. Rectifying the stupidity is going to cost taxpayers billions.
Zoom @ 303 etc – I must have been an intuitive genius last night to have picked you like that as a party stalwart!
I am amazed, but must accept it as you say it is so, that Stephen has a friend. However, the suggestion that factional warriers can have some remnant human characteristics will require corroboration because all the evidence I have seen myself suggests otherwise.
Anyway, we now have a conduit direct into the engine room of govt policy making through you zoom – Let’s start with funding for private schools …
Afternoon all-
I would like to point out to all of you who are being so scathing at the thought of JWH getting the Order thing from Liz, that you are depriving the women of Australia of the opportunity of seeing him in a Garter.
You are so selfish at times.
Jen – you are one sick chicken.
Oh, come on zoom.
Admit it: you want it too.
No. 304
It is not up to governments to decide which sites should be inaccessible to children. This is the responsibility of parents.
Once the filtering of the internet begins, there is no stopping governments from arriving at warped conclusions as to why other material should also be banned. Witness Senator John McCain’s attempts to have bans and fines imposed on blogs for “offensive comments”, all under the guise of protecting children. Given the frail reasoning which underpins McCain’s legislation, it is not exactly too far a leap to imagine any government using children as a prop to force bans on other “inappropriate” material.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2006/151206mccainbill.htm
Further, the fact that people must “opt out” of the service is irksome given that people who do so are at risk of becoming targets of investigations unnecessarily.
In any event, I support Ron Paul’s views on the matter of internet regulation.
http://www.infowars.net/articles/august2007/060807_b_Paul.htm
And I was about to eat. Thanks people.
GP,
You may not have noticed, but we are surrounded by laws (legislated and moral) that impinge on our personal activities.
People live very comfortably with road rules, tax laws and any number of restrictions to our personal liberty. Most of us try to live the golden rule. Quality control demands we some times are prevented from activities that are wrong, immoral or threatening to others (especially our children).
Don’t you think it is a bit early to man the totalitarian lifeboats to escape. If not however, I am sure there will be plenty of people willing to replace you in the relative utopia we share.
The problem with your line of argument is that it is precisely the indifference to which people attach our gradual loss of liberty that leads to totalitarianism.
No-one is suggesting that child pornography is legitimate or exhibits moral behaviour, however it is an affront to common sense and logic when Senator Conroy labels any opponents to internet content-filtering as supporters of child abuse.
Indeed, the laws are broad enough to encompass the monitoring and filtering of emails, instant messaging logs and blog comments. In effect, any “objectionable” content deemed “inappropriate” for children.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23019670-7582,00.html
Isn’t it up to parents to decide what is appropriate for children?
If the government is only wanting to ban child pornography, few would object. However, the laws are much broader than that and “child protection” will soon become a means of banning any material damaging to the government or vested interest groups.
Afternoon Bludgers…
Well, it looks like the Liberals are unable to learn from past mistakes. Brendan Nelson has raised the spectre of Brian Burke yet again:
“Mr Rudd explicitly on 31 occasions has denied he ever sought Mr Burke’s support for his … leadership for the Australian Labor Party,” Dr Nelson told the Nine Network today.
“Mr Rudd needs to release those emails, so Australia can actually get a clear idea of what actually happened.”
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/emails-raise-questions/2008/02/17/1203190629261.html
As if anybody really cares.
My guess:
Rudd was lauded as a hero of the nation this week. His preferred PM ratings are probably going to leave Nelson far, far behind. So what do the brilliant minds from the Liberal Party do? That’s right, they scrape the BOTTOM of the barrel and bring up the Brian Burke issue once more, obviously hoping to tarnish Rudd’s public profile. Of course, they seem to have forgotten what happened last time when they tired to pull this stunt – Newspoll skyrocketed to 61:39 in favour of Labor and the Coalition barely recovered in the polls right up to the last few weeks before the election.
Howard and his attack hounds just looked mean and petty while their smear attempts simply looked transparent. Seems Nelson has a death wish.
Yes, Noocat, and on the hour, every hour, all day, the ABC has led with this bit of supposed news. Not to mention, that prat Glen Milne, being on Insiders (should it be named The Peripherals and Irrelevancies?) to push it. Zoom, can’t you get someone to pay attention to the ABC needing a proper shake up?
OMG- Brian Burke! Call an election.
Where’s John Kerr when you need him??
Harry. It will backfire again. Nelson and his party will just look like insecure spoilers, dredging up the past, focusing on the negative and the petty, just when the country has been riding a wave of positivity.
The Libs just don’t get it. I am beginning to think that it really will take them a LONG time to catch up with the rest of the country. Right now, they have nothing to offer, and dredging up Burke again just highlights that.
They really are the most pathetic, sorry bunch of incompetents any country could have foisted upon them.
They are a complete embarrassment to conservative thinkers and makes anyone who supports them look foolish.
Time to get rid of the lot of them and start again.
I agree it makes them look like they haven’t got a single idea among them, Noocat. Backward looking, still think they can demand anything they want. Half Nelson demanding Rudd hand over the sorry motion because he’s the most important person Rudd should be talking to. Hah!
The ABC news service is really annoying me, however. Being such an obvious politics tragic, I enjoy some of the better programs such as The National Interest. It’s well researched and well presented. It certainly not a lack of news that drives the endless repetition of sound bites of Nelson demanding Rudd reveal the emails. Harumph.
The only thing that cheers me up is the contemplation of JWH in full regalia of stockings, ostrich feathers, velvet cape and garter reducing many of us to helpless laughter.
No 318
Unsurprising coming from an extreme Greens zealot.
320
Unsurprising, but true.
GP at 310. For once I agree with you. Internet filters will soon be broken by enthusiastic hackers. And in they’re not they’ll slow down our already dreadful internet speed even more.
It needs to be an “opt in” service. This one is just stupid and it won’t work.
320
Dear Geriatric Person, you don’t need to be at all extreme to agree with Jen.
How about explaining why you disagree with her? It would make a nice change and give you some practise in evidence based argument.
On a more serious note, getting rid of them all and starting again is exactly what Labor had to do, both in Victoria and Federally, to be taken seriously.
However puts their heads over the parapet for the Libs over the next decade will be able to be labelled a supporter of Workchoices. They’ll either have to say that they voted for the legislation but disagreed with it privately (and be labelled a coward) or that they’re a proud supporter (and be unelectable).
So the Libs with Beazley were able to trawl over his time as Education Minister, Defence Minister etc etc and throw his past performances back in his face time and time again.
You also have to question WHY someone who has been in Parliament say, twenty years, and has been a Minister, wants to stay there. Surely they have had the opportunity to achieve all that they wished to? (and if they haven’t, are obviously so pathetic that staying on won’t help).
Better to bow out quietly and let some brand new names and faces start to build up their profile.
The other big problem the Liberals have is the same that all parties face when they have given their safe seats to people who couldn’t get elected on their own merits – when there’s a wipeout, these are the very people you have to rebuild the party with.
In most cases, they have been given safe seats because they lack the people skills to get elected in their own right. Being in a safe seat means they don’t have to learn these skills, because their buffer will always protect them from the consequences of peeing off large slabs of the electorate.
The people you need to rebuild the party are those who are engaged on a community level, are acutely attuned to the swings of mood in the electorate and who are prepared to work ffing hard to stay where they are.
There aren’t many of them left in the Libs.
Nothing to do with being a Green, GP.
Just amazement that people of such little intellectual and political savvy could actually be in the parliament.
Surely as a conservative you would like better representation that what this sorry lot is offering,.. they’re a joke.
323
zoom says-
“IN most cases, they have been given safe seats because they lack the people skills to get elected in their own right. Being in a safe seat means they don’t have to learn these skills, because their buffer will always protect them from the consequences of peeing off large slabs of the electorate.
The people you need to rebuild the party are those who are engaged on a community level, are acutely attuned to the swings of mood in the electorate and who are prepared to work ffing hard to stay where they are.
There aren’t many of them left in the Libs.”
I think you’ve forgotten about Sophie, zoom.
No 324
Oh, I forgot jen, only people with views congruent with the left are sufficient to fulfil your “intellectual and political savvy” benchmark.
What ridiculous partisan rubbish.
I have been banging on about the sorry state of the ABC for a while now. Their news and current affairs are partisan and they haven’t realised that we have a Labor govt now not a Conservative one. The production quality is poor and overall they should be closed down.
As for the Insiders well they are now a joke. It is just an hour of self important journalistic prostitution. Kelly today said it all, how they turn.
No 322
Of course it should be “opt in”. Governments should enhance the choices of its constituents rather than imposing restrictions on, essentially, the last bastion of true freedom of speech: the internet.
No 327
Here I was thinking the ABC is partisan in favour of the ALP, and you’re saying the exact opposite – meaning they’ve probably got the balance right.
GP @326
-you could not be more wrong my friend. I respect people who put forward a cogent and relevant argument to back their positions. If I could find one among the current batch of incompetents I would be relieved. As I imagine many members and supporters of the libs would also be.
No 330
Since when did you become the arbiter of cogency and relevance?
since she paid out on piers and bolty,then you get awarded a badge that says
arbiter of cogency and relevance,i got mine last year too
331
feel free to present one.
cogent argument, that is.
GP @ 313,
“The problem with your line of argument is that it is precisely the indifference to which people attach our gradual loss of liberty that leads to totalitarianism. ”
Fair suck of the sauce bottle!
Australians would have to be among the most relaxed and indifferent group of people in the world. Yet, I don’t see us slipping into totalitarianism. In fact the exact opposite.
You are jumping at shadows. Collanders on head and tin foil window protection are not us. You need a Bex, a cuppa tea and a good lie down, lest your paranoia overtake your senses.
It is usually rabid right wing ratbags like yourself whose hand will sign the papers to deport us off to re-education camps so we can learn what freedom is all about.
325 Funnily enough, I had her in mind.
Exactly what I mean – that’s the sort of person the Libs are left with. An extreme right wing careerist who uses her seat as a vehicle to push her own interests, spouts a lot of rubbish she doesn’t really believe in and can’t defend, is notoriously lazy both intellectually and when it comes to working for her electorate, and has the people skills of – of – of – Tony Abbott.
Apparently she sits on the some of the very committees within the Lib Party which would have to make the hard decisions about dissassociating the Party from the hard right and purging the party of people like herself, so it’s not going to happen.
If anything, the dominance of people of her calibre in the Party will drive it further right and thus further into opposition.
You’ve got to have someone in safe seats, but there’s a lot to be said for putting people in them who, though they lack some personal skills, have ideas and political savvy. Otherwise when things go pear shaped you’re left with people who represent the type of thinking that got you into opposition in the first place. These people simply cannot shift the party in the direction it needs to go, because they simply don’t recognise the problems.
The standard of ABC News & Current Affairs has been woeful for some time!
I gave up on INSIDERS last year! Barry Cassidy is a dropkick, and there’s only so much of Ackerman & Bolt I can stomach before I feel the need to vomit.
As for the poisoned dwarf: he and his Crosby Textor employed wife work in tandem. It’s time he stopped pretending he’s an impartial journalist.
Obviously Milne felt the need to spoil Rudd’s great week: what an arsehole!
No 335
What nonsense.
The left are all over issues concerning human rights such as free speech and liberty and then when I raise a legitimate criticism to a policy manufactured by social relic of a bygone era, Steve Fielding of Family First, you accuse me of being a rabid right winger.
Turn it up, mate. The hypocrisy is astounding.
336 zoom -
I think you are being most unkind to Tony Abbott.
No 337
I’m sure you wouldn’t be describing Milne with expletives had he issued damaging criticism and revelations about Brendan Nelson or someone else from the Liberal Party.
Rudd is not an untouchable and if the Burke thing is “history”, then prove it so by releasing the emails. Clearly there’s more to the story than meets the eye given the reticence of the government over this issue.
338
GP -
try again. Cogent, intelligent… see how you go.
No 339
You know what your problem is jen, you’re afraid of people like Abbott and Mirabella who tell it like it is, instead of how you’d prefer to hear it.
Like the Brian Burke thing.
See if you can come up with one single relevant point that will make this issue mean a rats to anyone other than a few desperate try-hard libs.
No mate, No hypocrisy
As I said it is usually the rabid right wing ratbags like yourself. The rest of the time it is the feral left. I don’t see much difference actually in the outcomes generated by either group of lunatics.
Lucky for me, I am from the extreme centre. We sit in the middle of the road. I usually get a bit concerned about people who get to the edge of the whiteline in the road.
I’d be indifferent, but I can’t be stuffed.
No 341
Given your noticeable dearth of knowledge with respect to the definition of discrimination, one would be inclined to question with renewed interest, your understanding of cogency and intelligence.
Good old libs, at it again:
“Mr Brough, the Howard government indigenous affairs minister who championed the Northern Territory intervention before losing his seat in the election, has been sighted on the Tiwi Islands, north of Darwin, being escorted by the Tiwi Land Council.
Yesterday, he told The Australian reluctantly that he was seeking to make a profit from – and lend a hand to – the islanders in yet-to-be-finalised joint-venture projects on the islands.
“http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1202423340/3
No 343
It meant a lot to the people of Western Australia – Labor’s least successful state at the Federal Election.
actually GP
I had the dubious pleasure of debating Sophie at a social justice forum way back in 2004. Let’s just say she was an easy target. She promptly announced that she would never debate me again because the forums were stacked. Yeah, like the Anglican church in Wodonga (who organised it), is full of rabid left wing Greens (all cleverly disguised as elderly church goers).
I can’t take any great pride in the win : my 8 year old could have wiped the floor with her. her crowning moment of glory was when she said in response to my criticism of a policy “Well at least I don’t want to give drugs to children”.
Got me!!
what a moron.
Generic Person: only a few pathetic right wing wankers like yourself care about this shit! The last time your lot tried to smear Rudd, his approval rating went up.
GP @ 347 .
Not good enough Sunshine. Still don’t give a rats.
No 350
Oh, really, Ms O’Connor. Forgive me for not recognising your startling achievement of becoming the overarching mouthpiece for Western Australian voters.
LOL, it is a satisfying thought that you remain unelected to any parliament in Australia.
No 348
It would be most revealing to see a transcript of that debate. Until then, I’ll reserve judgment on Ms Mirabella’s performance therein.
GP- are you ESJ?????
Because if you are – you’ve been told.
And if not, why are you not using the name I use here.
Well, well. Rudd’s office has released the emails hiding Rudd’s alleged macchiavellian manouverings with Burke to siege the leadership. Picture Brenden holding a nice shiny red balloon. Picture Rudd with a bright shiny pin.
351,
Not cool naming people on this blog. It seems you rabid right winger ratbags only remember manners when it suits. Very un Extreme Centre if you ask me!
No 354
Is it not more respectful to address someone by their proper name?
Or are you going to label me a troll since I stated yet another material fact, on the public record, for all to see?
GP-
trying to patronise me by using my name is not presenting a cogent or intelligent argument. So, off you go and try again..
No 356
In amongst your hysterical rants about “rabid right wingers”, perhaps you might care to offer something useful.
Thus far, you’ve advocated the increased and widespread government censorship of the internet and cursed me for daring to raise issues of liberty and the rights of parents. In deafening silence, the other poll bludgers have failed to respond.
Zoom, interesting theory about the Libs. and who they put in safe seats. If all the Libs. signalling they’ll leave as soon as some buddy comes through with a nicely remunerated board seat, actually do, they’ll have the opportunity to find more Abbotts and Costellos and Mirabellas. Makes me laugh just thinking about it.
GP,
“In amongst your hysterical rants about “rabid right wingers”, perhaps you might care to offer something useful.”
Pots, kettles, black!
No 360
If you and zoom are suggesting that the ALP uses of safe seats are any better, then I would respectfully disagree. The ALP have used safe seats to install multitudes of union members/leaders into the parliament, neither of which is particularly talented.
William
What are the rules on naming people different to name recorded on posts.
Jen 354, GP used your name once before when ESJ was stalking you. I came to the conclusion that the two must have a very close and intimate relationship.
No 363
Trying to silence opposition on technicalities, wakefield?
Oh, the hypocrisy.
No 364
I am unsure as to why there a murmurs about ESJ in relation to me. I am not acquainted with ESJ and rarely engage with any of his comments on this thread.
Can we all … I don’t know, tone it down a little bit?
Apres, I would not allow the unmasking of a commenter who exercised their right to use a pseudonym. But when a commenter uses their real Christian name and provides other indications as to their identity, that doesn’t quite apply. I do agree though that it’s poor form for GP and ESJ not to address Jen in the manner she would prefer, and I ask them nicely – this time – to cut it out.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/17/2164864.htm
No 367
Mr Bowe, I’ll comply with your request.
Thank you William.
No 368
I commend the Prime Minister for coming clean. Now it can be put to bed once and for all.
William, it’s not a problem that GP has used the name ‘Jen’; the issue is that he twice introduced her surname into discussions, in what I think is an invasion of her privacy.
Is it true??????
Did Kevin accept an invitation from BB and then change his mind , providing an excuse as to why he wasn’t going to show up???????
The Dismissal pales into insignificance.
Block Supply NOw Mr Nelson ,ansd save us from such debauchery.
yawn.
No 372
This will be my final comment on the issue of real names, given Mr Bowe’s earlier ruling.
It can hardly be an invasion of her privacy given that her name is publicly available on the internet via an archived area of the Victorian Greens website. If she wanted to remain anonymous she need not have given indications that confirmed her identity.
Dear, oh dear, Generic Person. Has it occurred to you that many posting here have not reponded to your posting about the proposed increased filtering of the internet may have some positives going for it. Speaking personally, on my work PC, if my organisation had an effective filter for all the lonely Russian maidens claiming they’ll make me blissfully happy for ever and ever, the stupid penis enlargers and cheaper than cheap supplies of Viagra, the endless job offers promising I can earn squillions a week if only I’d give them my bank account details, I’d be very grateful. I get at least 20 a day so if I go on leave, there’s hundreds to delete when I switch the thing on again.
Secondly, the quantity of child porn has increased markedly, according to a report in “The Age” yesterday. Children are harmed in the making of such stuff. Thirdly, as a part of my work with families who have a child with anorexia, for example, one of the things I warn parents about as soon as practicable, are the websites frequented by young girls, who exchange information on how to hide what they’re doing and who encourage each other to keep going with the anorexic behaviour.
Fourthly, freedom of speech is not an absolute right. It is always qualified, depending on context. For example, on this site, it is considered manners to use the name of the person who has posted, as posted.
Fifthly, of course parents have rights, but again this is not absolute and qualified by context. For example, parents of people with intellectual disabilities quite often have enormous difficulties getting their children out of mobile phone contracts and the like, which the youngsters have signed when the parent is out doing the shopping or some such.
There now, Generic Person, I hope you feel someone’s noticed and that you take note that such things are rarely black and white. Technology usually brings mixed blessings.
hi kiddies
1.Who gave brendan a copy of Bushfires ‘glens be playing withs spiderman books”
post- i mean what is the implication from theses emails
-rudd was in thrall to brian-seeking the papal endorsement as it were ?????
-rudd was hoping for money from brian-geez therese ????
-rudd has a food alergy and was hoping brian knew about it???????
-rudd and brian were hoping for a tryst-nope not likely ewwww??????
but i figured it out
Rudd wanted brian to see if he could get an invite to the “porn king dinner” in qld-nope as kev was neither a lib or pm
GP @ 374,
Your motives were “crap”. Your actions were “crap”.
Buy yourself a moral compass.
That is an issue you should pursue with your employer, not the government.
I wholeheartedly agree that there is probably a sufficient case to ban child pornography sites. However, the laws Senator Conroy has tabled are not limited to that issue alone, but extend to all “objectionable” material deemed “inappropriate” for children.
It is up to parents to decide what is appropriate for their children. For example, some parents totally object to violent video games, whilst others have no issue with it. The government should not make that choice for them.
…and nor have I advocated that it is an absolute right.
I’m sure that most of you will find this as tiresome as I do, but GP , for your sake , let me reiterate
:I do not like the fact that you are making reference to my appearance, name and so on.
I have never hidden my identity and anyone who wanted to could have checked out my details as a candidate at the last election. Perhaps some did: I have no idea.
You are crossing the line though.
This site is a blog for political discussion and I enjoy being part of it, but we all respect the fact that we are not known to each other personally, although over time many of us have revealed some personal information about ourselves. This has been treated with respect without exception as far as I know, and I ask that you do the same.
Also – I am sure this is of completely no interest to anybody else, so stop it.
OK?
Back to the thread…
Just one other thing, Generic Person, sometimes people joke on this site, using funny versions of others names, or invented names. This would usually only occur when the respective parties had established a relationship which permitted this. It’s also the case, that some people here know my proper name, because I have made it known, and my posting name is a joke.
Just how old are you? I feel like I’m explaining basic good manners to some rat bag adolescent.
374
Geriatric Person
You are a dud, a big, fat dud. You’d support a right winger over a lefty even if the the right winger was a convicted child molester. Your opinion matters nought as you will not present a fair, balanced opinion on any subject to do with the Labor party. You are a barracker for the right no matter what the situation and no matter what the evidence. There are duds like you on both sides of politics. Thank goods we have a PM who is not dependent on listening to the tripe served up by you and your kind.
I am not an aged person.
Utterly obscene and unwarranted.
I give up. My initial assessment was correct. Generic Person is incorrigible and I will return to my previous advice to myself and Enemy Combatant to simply ignore this person.
BTW -
Generic Person-
want to tell us your name?
sorry. That was in bad taste.
Jen, Jen, Jen, it’s pointless, don’t go on. Now what we’re we talking about? Oh, yes, what a bunch of extremely foolish pollies to exhume the “drum roll” Brian Burke affair! Idiots.
The ludicrous red herring emails are now out of the way, and the poison dwarf will have to scurry back to his rat hole for a while. Good time now to announce a full blown Royal Commission of Enquiry into, let me see, Australian Wheat Board, Super Hornets, blatant pork barrelling, oh the list goes on and on. You want to play rough, we can show you how it’s done, you private school mommie’s boys!
386 -
sorry Harry. Something snapped and I was lowered to the same level.
Are you seriuosly suggesting that “The Brain Burke Affair” is not enough to bring down the government?
Me thinks you underestimate The Opponent.A serious error of judgement indeed.
After all, you are taking on Glen, GP, Sophie, Tony A. Alexander D., Bronwyn Bishop, and their intrepid leader: Brendan Nelson.
YeGads man: take cover.
Oh, I forgot, memo to Tories, please block us in the Senate, we can’t wait for a DD.
Yes Please!
But you’ll have to get rubber bands to put on their wrists or they’ll forget, being too distracted by news of the Queen’s new hat on the day.
Jen, I think their wrists are too limp to hold a band
“I know who you are,” says the man to the woman, deepening his glare. “So don’t get smart.”
This could be the opening scene of a horror film about a degenerate Young Liberal who prowls political blogs looking for women to harass and intimidate (in a vain attempt at distracting himself from his foolishness and insecurity).
Or it could be the opening scene of a tragi-comedy about a big-mouthed, bad-mannered, socially-inept goose who in the real world gleefully splashes his wealth around for power and attention but who in the virtual world is just another sad nobody.
Politics only from now on, please. No more comments about other commenters.
No 386
You can curse them incessantly, but Mr Rudd took their bait and has now silenced any further criticism. Good.
Gp.
you don’t think that might be because there was nothing to criticise, perhaps?
Hey Apres,
Is there anything you think is bad about the ALP?
No 395
The emails proved that.
Greetings ESJ. It’s nice to finally have an ally in this oft-one-sided thread.
Having deleted a few comments, I invite readers to take another look at #393.
It is unfortunate that some participants cannot be more civil in their approach.
I have just got home and read today’s postings.
What a grumpy and vitriolic lot you are. Calm down. Pour yourself a glass of wine. Eat a few corn chips.
I have no problem with Brendan Nelson calling for Rudd’s correspondence with Burke to be released, nor to I have a problem with Rudd releasing it, nor do I have a problem with what’s actually in the correspondence, and nor do I have a problem with the ABC (or anyone else) reporting it.
Keep your right-wing or left-wing views, as you choose, but don’t abuse each other personally. I like the friendly, and often very knowledgeable and perceptive, banter in this blog.
Think I’ll go and watch the cricket.
An outstanding statement. I 100% agree.
Antonio
This left wing verses right wing stuff is definitely trying…reminds me of a a segment of Mad Magazine.
Maybe if the informed people here stopped bickering and worked on the possible solutions to the challenges that lay ahead…then there might just be hope for the future generations.
The time is approaching when the divisiveness of political leanings will be of the past.
Just a thought???
No 403
Difference of opinion is an essential tenet of the political system.
The time is approaching when the divisiveness of political leanings will be of the past.
Is that a direct quote from Adolf Hitler scaper? I believe many of his speeches included similar sentiments.
I too just opened and read the comments.
What an outstanding non event we are about to experience in Parliament. A nothing in a demitasse.
The world’s finest Opposition. I tremble.
I’m all in favour of differences in political opinion.
We are lucky to live in a country where this is possible.
But we also have to be able to compromise, agree to disagree, and respect opinions we may not agree with.
It is in this spirit that I have returned to Poll Bludger, having attempted to watch the cricket, but been thwarted by my daughters watching dancing on Channel 10.
407
antonio -
dancing on channel 10/ current quality of political debate.
see the irony?
at least the dancing and the cricket have winners
GP, regarding earlier comments – I said that giving safe seats to inept pollies was a practice BOTH parties indulge in and has dangers for both of them.
I used the example of what Labor did wrong in Opposition to show what the Libs need to avoid in Opposition.
You obviously would like your comments to be taken in the spirit in which they are written, rather than immediately condemned because of the political labels people have put on you.
Please extend the same courtesy to other bloggers – party allegiances do not necessarily blind us to party failings – in fact, I used to joke that a compulsory question on the Labor party membership application form should be “Are you disillusioned by the ALP?” with anyone ticking ‘no’ be denied membership.
I do notice that bloggers who lean ALP wards tend to be more open to criticism of the party and its actions than bloggers who lean towards Libs are about the Libs – in fact, the latter seem to believe that any criticism of their party or its stances is simply unthinkable.
Unless the Liberals are prepared to look at their party and admit its errors, they will stay in Opposition a long time.
What annoys me about Milne is that Milne humself is in no position to criticise anybody else’s morals or judgement. His excuse is that he, “doens’t want to be Prime Minister,” so that apparently makes every egregious, hypocritical, slimy article he writes alright.
Burke has been done to death. Rudd and Burke have been done to death. A few emails does not make much of a differnce to the matter, especially when those emails reveal nothing more than that Rudd made up an excuse to let Burke down gently on the dinner’s postponment (which turned out to be actually tantamount to a cancellation).
Yet The Age breathlessly announces this afternoon that the emails have been “revealed”. No matter that they shed no new light on matters. The fact that the emails did not contain epithets and gutter language from Rudd telling Burke exactly what he thought of him and his dinner is apparent “proof” that Rudd – a career diplomat who used diplomacy in this case – was not earnest enough in his denunciation of Burke.
My head hurts when a known drunk and physical assaulter like Milne can even hold a job, much less get to write such piss-ridden pontifications about a man like Kevin Rudd. My head aches when the fornicating, fulminating pack of amoral journalists join in the fray with their prissy point-scoring. And now Nelson is going to go in hard tomorrow in Question Time. Gag me with a spoon! Bash me with a damp lettuce leaf! Brendan is getting all macho on the morrow!
This only confirms my belief that Rudd and his colleagues should take the gloves off and start punching back, releasing a few leaked documents re. AWB, Super Hornets, rain-making grants, anything else that might be contained in hitherto secret documents from the previous mob’s time of rule and in general just who was up who in the sordid world of the (thankfully gone forever) Howard government. It wouldn’t be pretty, but it might shut the bastards up, just for once, just for a little while, so my head can stop hurting and start healing.
They deserve to stay in Opposition for a long time. With no policy to talk about, all they have to fall back on is the muckslinging that left a sour taste in the public’s mouth last year.
Bushfire Bill at #411
Good idea. Fight fire with an inferno. Plenty of fuel to be found in this document by Senator John Faulkner. Plenty of fuel:
http://eherald.alp.org.au/articles/0306/magopine23-01.php
I do notice that bloggers who lean ALP wards tend to be more open to criticism of the party and its actions than bloggers who lean towards Libs are about the Libs .
I don’t think you would find any support for iemma on this site, plenty of criticism.
On the other hand none of the libs will criticise the no show by Mirabell, Randallet al in parliament, Tuckeys walking out on a vote or Pearce’s disgraceful behaviour. All of them elected representitves, none of them representing.
BB,Rx
But Rudd and co dont need to use the same tactics
simply allow the processes of parliament to ,ever so gently, bring these timebombs out.
a staggered and measured release (perhaps in tune with a DD or state election) would have more devastating effect than an all out broadside
anyway,the kitten has already got entangled in the ball of wool,why tie them up in more knots,after all they are only kittens
So to oppose a policy that has merit for the sake of posturing to establish a ideological stance is progressive for the nation???
Gee, oh well…maybe some are satisfied with the status quot…let us all just keep to the tenets of the twentieth century…is there a future in that comfort zone???
my take is the LP which used to be a ‘church’ of the “Liberals” (wets) and dry Conservatives is now due to “howardism’ only now a Party of Conservatives
Conservatives are zealots…’believers’…the idea of their faith being wrong is impossible hence no flexibility.Speak to a ‘centre’ Liberal and you’ll get a reasonable debate…but this site only has conservatives
methinks the four corners program tomorrow will be more damaging to the Coalition than today’s email thing for Rudd
due to “howardism’ only now a Party of Conservatives
“Conservatives”: I’m not sure that is the right word to describe a party that enacts legislation (WorkChoices) with the agenda of financially destabilising their Opposition.
But yes, your point stands, Ron, what is left of the Liberals is anything but “liberals”.
No 414
I won’t accept criticisms of those parliamentarians which disagreed with the apology. Just because elements of the community believe it is the “humane” thing to do, does not mean that everyone should step in line and and espouse an apology with which they don’t agree.
Not at all. The only reason why conservative bloggers seem that way is because those of the left constantly paint their opponents as “extreme right wing” fascist dictators with no humanity or compassion etc etc. It’s just nonsense.
I think you’re right on th money there Andrew, the Poisoned Dwarf has done this article to distract everyone from the huge amound of Merde about to be tipped tomorrow night.
I have no problem with people not agreeing with the apology. But to not show up and make the case shows a remarkable lack of conviction.
No 423
This is the oft-used argument around here. It has nothing to do with lack of conviction. In the end, the opponents to the apology accepted that the apology was going to go ahead and to voice their opinion in the parliament on the day would have caused universal chastisement on a far greater scale than Nelson’s speech attracted. The LNP is already in a fragile state – it need not further chaos.
But of course, that’s what you want – isn’t it?
It is not exactly a secret that the relationship between Howard and Costello was a mere respectful formality.
Both are no longer prominent on the political scene and a long lost memory as far as the punter is concerned.
It will be an interesting insight, but I doubt it will ruffle too many feathers.
425
“It will be an interesting insight, but I doubt it will ruffle too many feathers.-within the labor party
that poor ball of wool is going to be spinning out of control
here kitty kitty
Well… not really. Despite the fact that I didn’t agree with the way Nelson put together his speech, I felt kind of pleased that he said what his party thought (sort of). If the tables were turned, I’d want my elected representative to voice my opinion and not go all mealy mouthed.
I know that’s awful politics though.
you missed the point .
Wilson Tuckey turned up & voiced his ‘dissent’ in the most disrespectful PUBLIC manner (disrespectful not only to Aborigines but also to his Leader)
then Tuckey left the Chamber
the other guy stayed & PUBLICLY disrespected the Apology reading the magazine & laughing during the apology
you might think these standards are OK but most Aussies don’t
419
Rx – I don’t believe that “financially destabilising their Opposition” was the aim – more like “destroying their Opposition”
No 428
Wilson Tuckey was crude, but was truthful. The apology was a piece of self-aggrandisement for the Prime Minister. The same problems still affect Aboriginal communities the day after.
Hang on, you can’t have it both ways. On the one hand, it is argued that elements of the Liberal Party lacked the conviction to oppose the apology in parliament and then on the other, when a politician does do that, they are criticised for being disrespectful.
Ron, whether you like it or not, people have the right to disagree.
Mate, you don’t represent most Aussies. Your simple failure to accept that there is a significant section of the community who oppose the apology is the weakness in your argument.
On the whole I think that Liberals who really couldn’t bring themselves to agree in any way with the apology were probably within their rights not to turn up. I think people on here who say they all should have turned up and made the “no” case are being unrealistic.
Tuckey and Pearce on the other hand, disgraced themselves. There is no other way to put it.
No 427
Unfortunately it is not always possible to voice your opinion, even in the country’s foremost arena for opining.
I accept what you’re saying, but it just isn’t an appropriate time. It would have made Nelson look like an absolute fool if Mirabella showed up and interrupted the proceedings to oppose the apology. Not only is such an action not courageous, it is foolish an futile.
Otiose at 419:
I agree. In my eyes that makes them a dangerous organisation that:
*) is prepared to use legislation to threaten the financial viability of one of the two major political parties,
… which therefore
*) threatens the viability of our two-party system itself.
Strong oppositions make for good governance.
And the reverse is true: Weakened oppositions make for poor governance.
WorkChoices was about, at the very least, weakening the Labor opposition. Its sinister agenda was to slowly whittle away at Labor’s funding base with the longer term goal of one big powerful party remaining.
As I said, dangerous.
GP @ 432,
I agree.
To turn up and oppose the apology on the day would have been (was) an act of utter foolishness, not to mention potentially very hurtful to the apology’s recipients.
For those MPs who were anti the apology, being absent expressed their viewpoint very clearly indeed. It’s the two who turned up and then misbehaved who did the wrong thing.
Today’s scorecard:
Kevin Rudd 3
Brenden Nelson/Glen Milne/Generic Person 0
Rx @ 433,
Calm down – I don’t think Howard was after a one party state!
Sure, he wanted to make Labor’s life harder, and he stuffed up, big time.
No 433
Ron, parading this argument about as if it is impossibly infallible is just ridiculous and flies in the face of reality.
For all the conspiracy theories derived by Andrew Charlton, none of them actually materialised. The advent of WorkChoices and the increasing stubbornness of the previous government served to strengthen the ALP, not weaken it. The very fact that the ALP was elected with considerable swings in its favour proves that point.
Dyno
I suspect you underestimate the machinations of the most cunning power-obsessed political rodent in a generation.
Dangerous 427, you’re right, Horatio did say what his party thought (sort of). But Horatio felt himself obliged to nod to:
1. Small ‘l’ liberals wanting a straightforward apology
2. Black armband opponents wanting to be told they were right all along
3. Imagined church/charity organisations wanting to be told their motives were pure (I think this group is a figment, the churches have moved on)
4. JWH supporters fulminating about any apology to anyone
5. Extremist loudmouths like Tuckey (no point in attempting to appease this lot)
So … no wonder it was a dog’s breakfast of a speech and didn’t please any of these disaffected groups. At least Horatio delivered his party to the apology. It’s a pity he felt himself to be a captive. He was much better when responding to the welcome to country, which makes me think maybe his instincts are better than when he tries to make everyone happy. (Though isn’t that a contradiction of terms, a happy opposition?)
GP – “The apology was a piece of self-aggrandisement for the Prime Minister. The same problems still affect Aboriginal communities the day after.” The Aboriginals didn’t see it that way and rightly or wrongly that was the important thing. They saw it as a very important FIRST STEP as does the government and opposition. Without it, moving forward was a real problem.
I just wish you would get your facts right.
I have NEVER said Liberals should have turned up & voted against the apology as you misrepresent I’ve said.
What I have said is Tuckey & Pearce PUBLIC dissent stance was disrespectful & a disgrace and your assertion most Aussies do not agree with me is laughable
Three days ago I said Howard made the correct decision …not turn up
I said then , given the momentous occasion , Tuckey & pearce and the others simply should not have turned up
Happy to debate what I’ve said…not what you misrepresent
432
Generic Person
I accept what you’re saying, but it just isn’t an appropriate time. It would have made Nelson look like an absolute fool if Mirabella showed up and interrupted the proceedings to oppose the apology. Not only is such an action not courageous, it is foolish an futile.
So La mira should oppose the apology (and thus display her beliefs) when exactly?
The Liberals have learn nothing since November 24. Trying to dredge up Brian Bourke as a wedge of sorts is a fantasy especially when it comes from “that grub” Glenn Milne. It made no difference last year & it means nothing now. Someone should open the windows in the coalition party room as they are sniffing their own farts too much! Some fresh air please.
Are we due for a Newspoll?
Maybe Milne has forward knowledge from his cronies in the Australian (spits as she mentions the word) and needs a diversion
damn – i’ve watched the “quoting” html but obviously not mastered as yet
Rx,
I can’t prove you wrong, but I very much doubt that you’re right.
It is true, though, that WorkChoices has been a farcical piece of legislation in almost every respect: strengthened the groups it was targetting, and never particularly wanted by business, who (in some cases) are now moderately apprehensive about what Gillard might do with the centralised bureaucracy that WorkChoices set up.
Oh, and Howard got voted out and lost his own seat.
Apart from that it worked very well for JWH.
otiose @ 442,
Not defending Mirabella’s position, but the fact is that her non-attendance at the “sorry” session of Parliament (especially when coupled with other statements she has made) pretty adequately got her viewpoint across.
GP (437) – “The advent of WorkChoices and the increasing stubbornness of the previous government served to strengthen the ALP, not weaken it. The very fact that the ALP was elected with considerable swings in its favour proves that point.”
Oh, so Howard did it to strengthen the ALP. I feel a lot better about him now.
Come on GP you know that wasn’t his intention. Weakening the ALP base may not have been his sole to purpose for Workchoices but it would have been one of the reasons that’s for sure. Stupid he wasn’t.
Apologies, in 437 I referred to Ron. It was supposed to be Rx.
Dyno, yes, but think what would have happened if Howard had scraped over the line on November 24.
WorkChoices would have been cemented in. Unions legislatively made impotent and unattractive to members. Membership dries up. The money the unions pass onto Labor dries up. Labor left in a weakened position for campaigning and promoting their policies. Power increasingly cedes to his beloved Liberals, with himself as PM.
I cannot believe this is not what the cunning shit house rodent planned / foresaw.
446
Dyno – I drove back from Broulee on the NSW south coast yesterday and noticed several “Your rights at work” posters still extant in some VERY inaccessible locations – methinks they will be there (and capable of adding scare value) at the next election
Rx,
And Labor would have to have raised money the way every other party does, from individuals and businesses.
I have no doubt they would have succeeded, and it probably would have done Labor some good in the long run.
Of all the posts on the preceding 2 pages, at last count 34 of them were from Generic Person. Go have a look at them. William, I’m sorry. I realise you’d like this site to host some reasonable debate, but the offerings from the likes of Generic Person are just too inviting eventually of telling him he’s just a condescending prat.
No 448
No, that’s not what I said at all.
Ultimately, one could argue that all government policies are essentially aimed at silencing and weakening opposition, but let’s actually examine the reality before jumping to conclusions.
The fact that the ALP substantially benefited politically from WorkChoices proves that Charlton’s ridiculous conspiracy theories are false to a large degree.
The union movement has been weakening since prior to the Howard Government. If they disappeared it would have been due to their increasing irrelevance in the world of work, not because Howard single handedly orchestrated their demise to destroy the ALP. Only irrational Howard haters would argue the latter.
451 otiose,
WorkChoices could be for Labor over the next decade what “the recession we had to have” was for the Libs over the past decade – a phrase that epitomises what people disliked about the other side, and thus a gift that keeps on giving.
Less than a month to go to the March 15 Brisbane City Council elections and not a public poll released for months. No doubt the polling if anybody could be bothered doing such a thing would show Gridlock Campbell with a massive lead. Especially on the question of raising rates by more than the CPI which is a huge breaking of a promise made during the last election campaign, he is in a league of his own.
Hope the ALP run a campaign based on sending Gridlock a message based on his rate raising record. Beware the Ides of March.
No 453
I think you forgot to realise the delicious irony in amidst that eruption of self-importance.
Only irrational union (worker) haters would enact such a malicious grubby piece of legislation. No wonder they never took their “choices” to an election.
otiose , absolutely !
Rx. & Garry Bruce are right to say one w/c purpose was to weaken the ALP financial base & over time would have.
It is also the case Conservatives see ‘wages’ as a commodity to be free to ‘market forces’ with the worker having no negotiating position & so lower wages & higher business profits. howard was sprouting this in the 1980’s
455
Dyno – a soul after my own heart and mind – add the “interest rates” bogey and workchoices is the universal salve
Still on the subject of the apology and the early Rudd days generally (apologies if this has been linked earlier), this is a funny read from Simon Webster in the Sun-Herald. An excerpt:
” … Dozens of ordinary decent Australians in pointy white hats demanded Rudd say sorry for saying sorry. The Sorry Sorry campaign will be called the SS for short, which is quite handy because many campaigners already own uniforms bearing those initials.
Speaking of extremists who like dressing up in bizarre nationalistic outfits, John Howard was the only living former prime minister not at Parliament House on Wednesday. And he didn’t even send his apologies. …”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/emphasis-on-the-truth/2008/02/16/1202760661102.html
yep at best a thought…possibly a dream…probably a crock of …t
Simon Webster should be condemned for that fallacious account of John Howard. Indeed, comparing him to the fascist regime is beyond reproach.
That aside, I don’t see why Howard should have turned up. Why? To enjoy tea and scones with his arch nemeses of the last thirty years? To totally contradict the policy mantra of practical reconciliation which he has been advocating for more than a decade?
Simon Webster should get his head out of arse. I’m sure he’d be up in arms if we started comparing Rudd to Lenin or Stalin.
GP @ 463,
It was only a joke, mate.
gnat , your reply to #441 must be in ‘moderation’ ?
Ron @ 459,
When unemployment is 4% a lot of workers have massive negotiating power, doesn’t matter what the law says.
No 464
I’m sorry, but all too often people use the fascist comparison as some sort of joke. It simply is not a joke.
Rx are you a union official?
Apres – lots of name calling, question remains do you actually have any criticisms of the ALP?
he only has to be one of the 52.7% of voters who voted for Rudd to lnow that workchoices was an assault on workers rights
well well Rudd did lie to us after all…who’d a thunk it?
468 [question remains do you actually have any criticisms of the ALP?]
ESJ I have a criticism of the ALP – they should have won more seats at the last election so there are less Tories in the house and won a majority in the senate. Maybe they will do better next time.
Admirable zeal steve. Round them up.
So how sad you must be Rx,Ron and Steve that Labor is leaving most of WorkChoices in place???
Generic Person, February 17th, 2008 at 11:04 pm:
Generic Person, November 25th, 2007 at 8:15 pm [Rx emphasis]:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/768?cp=2#comments
@ 462
Yep…just a crock of whatever.
I suppose you are aware about the geothermal drilling the proposal of the water transfer grid that has been devised by a consortium of eighteen hundred engineers, to a point where it has been costed to issue a prospectus???
And I’m sure you are aware of the emergence of another industry that will revolutionise the manufacturing industry…yep, all crock.
Rx , how dare you expose GP hypocrisy !!
well G is too scared to reply to #441 and is still defending w/c
ESC is still in self denial over the apology
Steve , if the Libs leadership follow this approach , your hopes will be realised
Generic person, you chose to reply selectively to an earlier post in which I detailed reasons why there might be a range of considerations to think about in relation to increased filtering on ISPs. I don’t think I’m terribly important, actually. In fact, I know I am a mere mortal who chooses to spend her working time with those whose lives have been much harder that mine. That’s my choice, fully and freely made. You sir, appear to be someone who will use sophistry and cant to support your cause, to no effect on the likes of me.
Go right ahead. The Libs have clearly got it well sorted.
Edward StJohn:
It would be a foolhardy person indeed who reveals anything personal to a poster such as yourself, given your, frankly, scary stalking of another here on this blog.
477 Queensland has the balance about right. Only eight too many.
LOL Rx, yes if viewing a posted web-site is stalking – guilty as charged.
LOL ESJ!!
the victim & all other blogers did not view it as innocent
clearly your subsequent ‘apology’ was less than sincere
Glen. you silly person, the released emails say exactly what Rudd said they did. Maaatttee, check the facts first beeeeeffooorre you post!
Steve,
Question: How will ALP government increase the net level of happiness in the community?
468
Edward St John – two criticisms off TOH – roxon was poor on 7:30 Report – swan was poor with D Dixer – but they have AT LEAST 3 yrs 2b more betta
by removing soft stalkers & reducing tories to 0
GP @ 463 – The point in the article was I think the rumoured possibility of (Sir?)John Winston dressing up in Garters for some ancient bauble that wasn’t abolished with Empire Day. Hence ‘dressing up in bizarre national’ outfit.
I can understand your confusion with Germany though – the German and British royal families are I understand quite closely genetically linked.
Royal families have to give it about overseas as much as possible to avoid unfortunate manifestations of in-breeding. They obviously forget about this often.
485 I must admit that in your case ESJ it won’t. The chronically unhappy will always remain so.
Funny. You were the one labelling others condescending prats just moments ago.
j/v touche
Harry , you are talking to the disinterested
As to criticism of Rudd, yes I have:
His maintenance of the SES formula for Schools funding 2009 to 2013
but Conservatives do not wish to debate policy here
Steve, the net level of happiness, surely as an ALP supporter you understand the concept of the collective or is everybody an army of one in the ALP these days?
Oh ron the ALP abandoned equity in education in 1972 when it first funded private schools and in 1985 with university fees. That horse bolted DECADES ago
Otiose no doubt there media advisers were very unhappy too!
I think that the net level of happiness with the conservative side of politics was reflected in the last Federal election result and yes, I do expect an improved performance for Labor at the next election which may well reflect an overall heightened happiness with having a progressive government rather than a regressive, reactive coalition government.
can you conservatives ever get your stories together
Private funding was introduced in 1963 after the Goulbourne Lavatory incident
491
Ron – i hope that the school funding “me-too” was part of that policy that pete suggested would “all change” but was necessary to defeat the rodent – it is indefensible on equity grounds
cliche steve. good night
No 495
Steve, you may be interested in reading about happiness in the following article by Peter Saunders, Centre for Independent Studies.
He analyses and deconstructs Clive Hamilton’s ominous view of the market system and capitalism.
http://www.cis.org.au/POLICY/summer%2007-08/saunders_summer07.html
Oh Lordy, yes Ron, I was just giving it one last chance – to no avail, it would seem.
Generic Person, I said I would not respond to you any more, and I meant it. I have nothing to say to you.
ESJ, I hope you’ve one or two more neurons than Generic Person. Unfortunately, the Burke view is a very old and dated concept. If you seriously want to re-think the position of the Conservative parties, I’d suggest y6ou revisit Zoom’s analysis above.
Otiose , unfortunately having been embarassed on history ESC has deserted
afraid not Obtios , what Rudd did cleverly was to negate the rich PrivateSchool argument that Latham crucified & agreed to the existing formula
Its inequitable & illogical…Rod Kemp brought it in & generally is based on post codes.
Believe Rudd will try to offset this inequity not by changing the formula but by giving additional funds to all schools (Laptops , webb etc) & mayu give other capital funding in future
its the long way around fixing the problem & I think unsatisfactory , but political reality may force him to…thats a short version…hope clarifies abit
Given your near-imbecillic disregard for your own hypocrisy is hilarious.
Harry , may be all of us should simply ignore the two
but if some break ranks then the 2 have suceeded
(which is why I respond to such miserable people mate)
Must be a full moon this evening.
499
Yes, I read the book from Clive Hamilton when it came out last year, GP. As Saunders himself says,’people just do not buy the (right wing) arguments’ that he and you continually espouse. If you can’t sell your argument – then has the thought ever occurred to you that you might be barking up the wrong tree. Many people around here seem very happy with the fall of the Howard regime and all it represented.
Oh bugger, William. I was trying to keep the site noice.
I’m very HAPPY!
@504
No, just a spy satellite getting shot down.
William
whatever makes you say that
BTW order in the house is on ABC now
504
William Bowe – full moons spawn lunar-tics
Aussieguru01 and so you should be with Rudd’s win & w/c gone & CC Ok’ed
Harry , perhaps we should plead for William to establish a ’solitary confinement’
thread JUST for our friendly duo ,
so they can simply talk each other into ……..) ?
Given tonight’s carry-on it is timely to note that I have been told that hidden in the detail of Stephen Conroy’s looming bill on internet control is a section that will allow government agencies to trace individual bloggers on sites like this who post inappropriately.
The definition of “inappropriate ” is apparently being worked through at the moment.
One of the options papers includes targetting of bloggers who, for example:
1. Never substantiate general assertions;
2. Abuse those with whom they disagree;
3. Misrepresent, in order to mislead, their true opinions and general affiliations;
4. Adopt other bloggers’ ideas as their own without attribution;
5. Are excessively repetitive;
6. Are continually off-topic;
7. Stalk fellow bloggers.
There will be a warning followed by a small fine (to go into a trust fund forindependent blog site co-ordinators), before the seizing of computers and incarceration options swing in.
A new ‘Blog Inspectorate’ will also, as it is now drafted, have right of entry into bloggers’ temporary accommodation, kombis, or circuses.
Even the left to a large extent accept the market economy, so it is no longer a domain solely for the right of the political divide. But, aside from that, it is because capitalism lacks the romanticism of other schools of thought. It just works.
Saunders’ following statement illustrates the dilemma of the intelligentsia quite well:
But the best explanation for the intellectuals’ distaste for capitalism was offered by Friedrich Hayek in The Fatal Conceit.(29) Hayek understood that capitalism offends intellectual pride, while socialism flatters it. Humans like to believe they can design better systems than those that tradition or evolution have bequeathed. We distrust evolved systems, like markets, which seem to work without intelligent direction according to laws and dynamics that no one fully understands.
Nobody planned the global capitalist system, nobody runs it, and nobody really comprehends it. This particularly offends intellectuals, for capitalism renders them redundant. It gets on perfectly well without them. It does not need them to make it run, to coordinate it, or to redesign it. The intellectual critics of capitalism believe they know what is good for us, but millions of people interacting in the marketplace keep rebuffing them. This, ultimately, is why they believe capitalism is ‘bad for the soul’: it fulfils human needs without first seeking their moral approval.
Actually, William. I’ve got to say I’ve learned more on this site, about things that are really important to me, such as the politics, the polling, the analyses that matter, than I could ever really thank you for. Not wishing to be a suck, but I truly do appreciate your site and the poll bludgers.
513 [It just works.]
So do I. It’s been a long day and capitalism 101 will have to be explained to me some other time I’m afraid.
Jaundiced, funny, laughed. Nite all, have got wounded people to take care of tomorrow. Do you remember when women used to slave over hot stoves? Now we slave over hot families! Bizarre!
514
Harry ‘Snapper’ Organs – may I wholeheartedly concur – however to deprecate that thanks with a desire “Not wishing to be a suck” implies that to say thanks (or indeed, in another context, sorry) is somehow shameful – in neither case is it, nor should it be – well done
#513 Friedrich Hayek in The Fatal Conceit.(29) bankrupt philosophy left him embittered and reading his flawed analysis its not a surprise
Oh dear, Ron. You have much to learn.
learnt enough to throw Friedrich Hayek into the garbage
Given your scarce reasoning, either you are incognisant of Hayek or simply have a vested interest in dismissing his view.
I encourage you to read Saunders’ account.
http://www.cis.org.au/POLICY/summer%2007-08/saunders_summer07.html
his absence of public purpose rendered his views ireelevant to any rational economist…your mistake was to believe the theory such as you understand
Ron you can do better than that, or is that you are embarrassed at the sound logic underpinning Hayek’s theories.
I reiterate Saunders’ conclusion:
I thought you did not undestand my economic comment and your reply confirmed it. Your high priest his disciples(Howard & you) are arguing capitalist theories long since discredited
aand i leave you to your negative thoughts for another bright day with
Kevin07 in charge…anon
No 524
It was a statement without substantiation, arbitrary in tone and completely ignorant of the topic at hand.
Hayek’s remarks are purely rhetorical. They are just theatre, really, trying to characterize his critics as “intellectuals”. Strange too, since Hayek himself was an intellectual.
The question about captalism is not whether “it works” (though clearly sometimes it does not work too well) but whether it can be made to work for everyone, and, if so, how…
No 527
I think you’ll note blindoptimist that it was Saunders criticising intellectuals, not Hayek.
No system can guarantee equality of outcome for all its participants: it should only work to provide equality of opportunity. Thereafter, it is up to individuals themselves to pursue their own challenges.
Is capitaism “Bad for the soul”? How bizarre! This is not a serious argument, surely. “Moral approval”? Equally weird. This must be a joke.
GP, do you feel included in the class of intellectuals that Saunders dismisses so easily?
And what has equality of any sort – opportunity or results – have to do with capitalism? I don’t see the connection, myself…
I reiterate Saunders’ conclusion:
The intellectual critics of capitalism believe they know what is good for us, but millions of people interacting in the marketplace keep rebuffing them. This, ultimately, is why they believe capitalism is ‘bad for the soul’: it fulfils human needs without first seeking their moral approval.
Millions of others are excluded from the marketplace, or exploited by it. Capitalism does not so much cause ‘moral’ harm to the soul, as it causes physical harm to the bodies of the millions not currently benefiting from Hayekian or Friedmanesque capitalism.
Capitalism, in its pure form, does not work.
That’s why even the most capitalist, free market societies have laws to regulate the market – nearly all of them have anti monopoly legislation (despite economic theory saying that monopolies can’t exist); consumer protection, industrial relations and environmental protection legislation. Nearly all of them prop up business enterprises which should, according to market theory, be allowed to die a quiet death.
So the argument (intellectually) with capitalism for governments is how far you go with these controls and in which circumstances you let ‘the market’ sort things out.
Zoom, you have summarised it very succinctly, our challenge is to tame the excesses of capitalism in the marketplace. It always amazes me that the proponents of a free market are so opposed to the same forces operating in the workplace. If indeed we have freedom, why then are we not allowed to withdraw our labour by striking or other industrial action. The whole idea of workers having the power to negotiate individually was always the very opposite of freedom, it was a completely imbalanced equation.
I hear on BBC this morning that the British Government has nationalised Northern Rock, typical capitalistic thinking, privatise profits but socialise losses. Just as the good old Fed Reserve in the States is doing.
Seems a former minister is trying to extend out the limits of acceptable capitalism.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/brough-denies-business-dealings-improper/2008/02/17/1203190634750.html
Yes, Basil Fawlty, the alnernative which a former Victorian government chose is not without pain for people with money invested in such institutions. While companies can in theory be allowed to be weeded out in the interests of a free market, I remain doubtful that people’s life savings should be left solely to free market forces. As people get older, time for rebuilding finances lost by someone else’s actions becomes a limiting factor.
I wonder how much of the so-called “Future Fund” has been lost already? Seemed strange to me the way the investment managers were chosen, we ended up with some Yankees doing the investing, hope they weren’t into home mortgages!
Perhaps there is another Royal Commission there, there won’t be too many ex-ministers left roaming free soon.
Basil Fawlty @ 539 – If only that were so, but you have a greater chance of flying to the Moon by flapping your arms than seeing any ex-minister being even quizzed by a Royal Commission/the cops, much less charged.
I’m no great fan of Hayek, but he does suffer from selective borrowing by the Right. Totake his economic views without his moral theory is to do him a disservice. Bear in mind also that much of Hayek’s writing was at the height of the threat of global communism and totalitarianism. In his world the alternative to laissez-faire capitalism was very Orwellian.
Let’s not forget his essay “Why I am not a Conservative” (1960) and its condemnation of conservatism for failing to adapt to change.
Sorry guys.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23231891-29277,00.html
542
JOM-
Mick Keelty (puppet of JWH) says there is no case.
what a relief.
Jen he has a new master now his name is Kevin Rudd.
GP
a Neoliberal is a communist (as capitalism is winner takes all, its authoritarian right)..extremem authoritarian left is communism. Left libertarian is in another box – that’s where you get to social democracy (a combination of right.left) and then eventually far left liberal, more socialist…
As an observation – People of the New Right (and particularly far far right!!) always do the same thing – they make out that anybody who is not a 100% capitalist (r/wing communist which Hayek more or less was economically) is 100% in the opposite direction – they normally say socialist (100% left) but should say communist. You do exactly the same – Alan Greenspan has just done the same thing in an interview – its seems to me because they know they are not going to win the argument on values basis – yes, capitalism is wealth generating, but it is also survival of the fittest, winner takes all and of course, the more exclusively you become for the winners (see a recently released book from financial wiz’s throwing the book at Alan Greenspan) – that ’s why others with different values than you go for the social democratic left – the COMBINATION – the fact that you have to push everyone to the opposite extreme to what you are says you and the Right do not have an argument..all the radicals of the Liberal Party do the same – when its very unusual that anybody would be a socialist..
Also, GP
The trickle down effect is a very smart thing to say, technically some can trickle down,…but as capitalism is winner takes all it accumulates in the business elites and everybody else gets to pick up the shit down below.
I have a degree in development and I did some academic research on the imposition of the radical right (NEOLIBERALISM) on Bangladesh, where I have studied…the evidence was that it did something for the business elites (top 30 per cent) and really nothing for the bottom 70%. It has also been shown the the bottom 20% of America’s poor did not benefit from economy being up during Clinton’s years
The difference between the “trickle down” effect and social democracy is that everybody gets a fairer piece of the pie….what I do notice is that the business elites always vote for the trickle down – all power to them, …and you can get a reasonable level of unemployment – many euro countries have reasonable unemployment, around US levels
Did everyone see this Galaxy poll in the SMH today about levels of public support for the apology? 68% is pretty decent.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pm-said-sorry–and-so-said-more-of-us/2008/02/17/1203190653987.html
I was one of those 1100 people. It was the first time I’d ever been polled and was an interesting experience, to say the least. I was asked about the apology, then a lot of questions about how I felt about buying goods with too much packaging, my personal recycling behaviours (such impertinence!) and then some hilarious questions about what I thought about Australian colloquialisms. The poller was a young Canadian bloke who struggled manfully with ‘budgie smugglers’ and ‘bogans’. Bit of a giggle.
542 J of M, who I feel ’sorry’ for are all of the brainwashed women and children, who find themselves at the mercy of their ‘Lord and Masters’ religious male propaganda!!!!!
Excellent to see all is well on pollbludger, unfortunately I have been a rare visitor with things such as lectures to write. Looking forward to the four corners episode tonight, should make for interesting viewing. I can’t help thinking its pretty disloyal for ex-ministers to come out and bitch about Howard when the dust has barely settled. If I was a liberal party member, I’d be quite depressed about it all. Legacy trashing seems to be in full swing.
Ah the trashing of the Howard legacy has come in earnest.
Howard spin doctors left office a ‘pigsty’
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/spin-doctors-left-office-a-pigsty/2008/02/18/1203190701297.html
Former ministers come clean over Howard government mistakes
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/17/1203190653100.html
Just confirming what we all knew, Howard’s policies on Kyoto were illogical and damaged his own party.
as a matter of interest how many members of the Howard gvt left/resigned/sacked for whatever reasons
the only one i seem to remember was santoro (was he facing criminal charges?)
549
Re ‘Former Ministers come clean over Howard government mistakes’
I think the greatest part of that article was near the end
“Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson was interviewed for the program but does not appear.”
Poor guy….he can’t even get noticed slagging off howard….
This is a good read about the Liberal party, written by Robert Dean
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/menzies-way-is-the-only-true-path-to-victory/2008/02/17/1203190649298.html
540 Mayo, I was simply dreaming of what might be, not seriously suggesting, my own little private fantasy
Can anyone beleive that the Libs want people to get upset because Rudd didn’t have dinner with Burke, 2005? Do they actually want people to take them seriously?
And how about Hockey’s admittance that most Govt members didn’t realise that workers could be worse off under Workchoices? Exactly how out of touch can you get?
550 – gusface
Reith, Vanstone, Hollingsworth are 3 names that come to mind.
I’m sure there are many more.
Typically though Howard would keep his ministers on, no matter how corrupt or incompetent they were.
Who remembers yet another of Howard’s broken promises on the Ministerial Code?
re: tonight’s 4 corners- Howard will deserve a fair share of the blame but he should not be a scapegoat. The others were to gutless to force him to go
554
Liz Says
Re Joe and workNOchoices
Interesting that Joe and his mates are happier to run with the “We were too stupid, lazy, ignorant, incompetent and out of touch” excuse for not understanding what they were doing than to admit they deliberately with foresight set out to screw the unions and workers [the blatantly obvious reasons].
Which flies in the face of reality. I again quote Saunders:
he way this has enhanced people’s capacity to lead a good life can be seen in the spectacular reduction in levels of global poverty, brought about by the spread of capitalism on a world scale. In 1820, 85% of the world’s population lived on today’s equivalent of less than a dollar per day. By 1950, this proportion had fallen to 50%. Today it is down to 20%. World poverty has fallen more in the last fifty years than it did in the previous five hundred.(11) This dramatic reduction in human misery and despair owes nothing to aging rockstars demanding that we ‘make poverty history.’ It is due to the spread of global capitalism.
Capitalism has also made it possible for many more people to live on Earth and to survive for longer than ever before. In 1900, the average life expectancy in the ‘less developed countries’ was just thirty years. By 1960, this had risen to forty-six years. By 1998, it was sixty-five years. To put this extraordinary achievement into perspective, the average life expectancy in the poorest countries at the end of the twentieth century was fifteen years longer than the average life expectancy in the richest country in the world—Britain—at the start of that century.
By perpetually raising productivity, capitalism has not only driven down poverty rates and raised life expectancy, it has also released much of humanity from the crushing burden of physical labour, freeing us to pursue ‘higher’ objectives instead. What Clive Hamilton airily dismisses as a ‘growth fetish’ has resulted in one hour of work today delivering twenty-five times more value than it did in 1850. This has freed huge chunks of our time for leisure, art, sport, learning, and other ‘soul-enriching’ pursuits. Despite all the exaggerated talk of an ‘imbalance’ between work and family life, the average Australian today spends a much greater proportion of his or her lifetime free of work than they would had they belonged to any previous generation in history.
You can’t simply dismiss the wealth generating power of capitalism, bird. It flies in the face of reality.
By fairer piece of the pie, you mean state pensions which simply promulgate a welfare mentality, lack of self-esteem and the erosion of self-responsibility. Socialism revels in constricting society into a state of mediocrity, where talent is held back because it would be unfair to those untalented. Where free enterprise is seen as an avenue of exploitation rather than a vehicle of wealth generation for all.
The very fact that some people exhibit overzealous greed and wont for power, does not mean that capitalism should be dismantled in favour of some vague notion of fairness.
No 556
I would have to agree with that assessment. No-one was willing enough to challenge Howard, perhaps out of sheer respect or simple lack of conviction.
At the same time, the suggestions that Howard should have resigned mere weeks before the election are and were absurd.
559 – Howard said he would step down when his party wanted him too.
He lied about that too and its all coming out tonight.
Lack of conviction from the Liberals and personal selfishness from Howard has relegated them to opposition for a looooong time.
Not to mention abysmal policies.
No 560
Yes, but the party failed to mount a candidate to challenge him. There were murmurs about a “smooth transition” to Costello, but neither Costello or anyone else were effective in accruing party support.
Costello himself has revealed even prior to tonight’s documentary that he didn’t have the numbers for a challenge.
561
it only takes two functioning ones
It all comes down to:
1. Howard lying to Costello that he would pass him leadership in 1 and a half terms.
2. Howard lying to his party that he would pass on the leadership when it was in the best interests of the party.
3. The Liberal party for failing to have the conviction to remove a leader that specialised in deceit.
An excellent article.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23232263-5013947,00.html
561 [he didn’t have the numbers for a challenge.]
Indeed he never even had the numbers to get a bounce out of last year’s budget.
564 Looking for the excellent article seems you’ve pasted Paul Kelly by mistake.
From the link by John of Melbourne @ 542 -
“It received two referrals from the Australian Electoral Commission (AEC) in 2007 but only one – relating to election funding totalling some $300,000 for the 2004 federal poll – was investigated with no evidence of wrongdoing disclosed.”
Wonder what evidence they may have uncovered if they’d check out the other referral? Seems a mite too ‘cute’!
Can I assume, for example, that if I rob a bank the cops will only investigate how quickly I drove during the getaway?
John@564
from article
“This reflected the power situation: Costello had neither the numbers to force Howard out nor the ability to persuade him. The Liberal Party’s tragic mishandling of the leadership issue over the 2004-06 term is that Howard stayed too long but his deputy never found the mechanism to remove him, by charm or threat. ”
excellent euphemism- ‘mechanism ‘
though showing some “mechanism” just dont sound right
GP, I think Saunders ought to define what he means by ‘capitalsm’ and you should define what you mean by ’socialism’.
And are you arguing for the abolition of pensions? Why and on what grounds? Because they encourage mediocrity? Talk about moral conceit! I don’t think my mother would take kindly to being called mediocre just because she gets a pension of $11.00 per fortnight after a lifetime of hard work, enterprise, constant thrift and proud self-reliance.
You really are an idiot, GP.
I believe it to be a good article.
Looks like Swan will be the first casualty:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/politician_tries_to_rescue_wounded_swan/
Well I waited patiently during Question Time for Brendon’s supposed grilling and asking tough questions of Ruddy… i’m still waiting..did I miss something?
talk about wet lettuce
Nev Wran has nothing on Rudd in the teflon stakes!
No 564
Yes, I advocate for the abolition of pensions for all able-bodied citizens. Pensions are only sufficient to support the genuinely disabled.
GP, points well made… in a similar vein -
http://www.reason.com/news/show/124913.html
Trashing capitalism seems a fairly unsubtle argument… I look at it in the sense that we try and ‘harness capitalism’ in an attempt to mitigate it’s exploitative nature, but we must also be mindful that ‘harnessing’ does slow down the capitalist beast… a double edged sword.
Hmmm… forgive the mixed metaphor…
On the basis of disability, GP, you probably deserve a double pension.
LOL blindoptomist!
Swan is in no trouble. Bolt is just getting carried away. Gittins explained the situation long ago and I haven’t seen you, Turnbull or anyone else worried aboutthe
NAIRU before now.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/28/1085641712893.html
Have to admit, Swan was hopeless today. The one bright thing about the affair is that it’s Bolt who is predicting his demise. A Bolt prediction of political death is practically the Kiss Of Life.
I heard a high ranking police officer from the US once, talking on the radio.
He said he was initially surprised at the number of people on pensions in Australia.
He then said that he was even more surprised by the low crime rates, and said that if making it (relatively) easy for people to go on pensions kept them from stealing, that he was all for it.
It costs the same in one day to keep someone in prison as it does to pay them a pension for a fortnight – so even if getting the pension keeps one person in ten from turning to crime, it’s more than paying its way.
And yes, I suppose I should get my 70 year old mother, who has spent her whole life working for the community, out there scrubbing floors or something, instead of bludging off the public purse. Probably do her good, give her new interests and let her meet new people…
yes zoom….but make sure your mother gets no overtime or penalty rates. Considering her age, sick pay should also be out of the question. She will then be anything but mediocre and GP will be able to enjoy his selnse of moral superiority.
JOM, this is a first- I AGREE WITH YOU!! An excellent article by Paul Kelly. Howard didnt have the guts to resign, didnt really want to stay but wanted to make it look like he was pushed. What a pathetic excuse for a man/ leader
Thanks for the blurb from Peter Saunders – its interesting but it does not tell the whole story that there is an extreme income disparity – my point is GP, that for most people, integrating the right with the left is a preferable way – socialism is wrong but so is the other end of the spectrum, which you advocate – and eventually it will be seen as this – when multinationals go to 3rd word countries, then typically do anything to stop them collecting bargaining , exactly what the libs have done, crush the wages of the poor, so its a race to the bottom of the barrell – vis a vis a 300 billion dollar profit margin. You could easily let those people collectively bargain with or without a union – 99% goes back to western corp interests for a very small % of pop and 1% goes to the many…
its not what Peter says, its what he does not say….
Andrew, I agree with you on everything but the last sentence.
I suppose letting go of power is a hard thing not many of us will get the chance to experience.
GP:
The other thing is that personal responsibility is based on how much money you earn so people move into 3 spheres across the social structures – eg: safety net health care – whereas universal health care and public education gives more equitable outcomes which can sit alongside private enterprise..
Once again, you refer to socialism, when there are many positions you can take before you get to that……..
In reference to pensions, my grandmother really needed her pension – otherwise she would of starved….
To everyone else in this blog, I am kind of glad that GP does not give an inch on neoliberalism – socialists/marxists and maoists of the 1950’s thought the problem was with everyone else’s values…so I will let history take its course on this one..
GP always has comebacks!!
571 John of Melbourne You’re saying Andrew Bolt has written an excellent article. That’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one!
You are a generous blogger, bird. But it does seem a waste to indulge his attention-seeking pseudo-analysis by taking it seriously.
blind optimist, you are right…I have a development degree from UNSW –
GP is a right wing communist (or socialist) …it seems that some people need to be extreme and mutually exclusive to one side of the political spectrum. Quite a few people who were marxists now have the same views as GP. When they go, they have to throw out the baby with the bathwater!!
But Blind optimist, you seem nice!! (hey do you live in sydney?)
Chris I meant to say Paul Kelly’s article was excellent.
PS. I do think that Andrew Bolt is a great columnist too.
Thank you, bird. I like the way you warble too. (I live in Perth, studied development economics at Murdoch some time ago.)
And in local Liberal News, Paul Omodei didn’t have the numbers to be elected to the Upper House, and may decide to resign for the Libs and contest Warren-Blackwood as an independent.
Anybody who thought that it didnt matter about how badly Swan’s parliamentary performances were had better have watched Question Time today pure comedy to have a Treasurer that doesn’t understand basic economic concepts is just a joke! I almost felt sorry for him…almost!
For a possible DD Election i say bring it on! The ALP never passed our policies until we had control of the Senate…so Laborites deal with it! We’ll continue to block it on the basis that it is a rushed job and destroys individual agreements under Pre-2005 AWAs.
The Libs didn’t lay a glove on Rudd today re Burke. Any bets on how long this saga will run now? I’m thinking all of the talk tomorrow will involve the goings on of the past government, leaving Brian Burke in its wake.
No 582
Capitalism does not serve to equalise the income spectrum because by doing that it restricts talent, reduces incentives to work and cancels notions of self-responsibility. That is the essence of socialism: promoting the victory of mediocrity over talent.
You constantly criticise “multinational corporations” and the “elite few” and yet fail to realise that without the entrepreneurial risk undertaken by such entities, there would be no jobs and absurdly high unemployment.
Multinational corporations have helped bring millions out of poverty. You see it as exploitation, which is patently ridiculous when you consider that without the jobs they provide, these people would be starving and unable to support themselves.
No 579
People should provide for their own retirements. The sooner people realise that the government is not their to sustain life but to enable free will, the better our society will be.
That is why Keating’s superannuation policy, and Howard’s subsequent improvements to it, is so vital for our future fiscal viability.
Swan was hopeless today. I can’t see him lasting long.
NAIRU is taught in High School economics.
What contradictory rubbish are you on about. I consider myself to be a libertarian mainly because the more I read about the philosophy of freedom, the more it makes sense. Senator Ron Paul is a brilliant exponent of this thinking as are Hayek and Friedman.
The only communists and socialists here are those which believe the government should nanny society from birth to death, that all decisions should seek their moral permission and that all free enterprise is exploitative.
I tend to like Andrew Norton’s summation of Clive Hamilton’s illogical eruption in Growth Fetish:
Economic prosperity remains a vital component-though no more than a component-of personal and social well-being. Going for growth in Australia isn’t a ‘fetish’. It is an aversion to the consequences of economic decline, of which we were so harshly reminded only a little more than a decade ago.
No 592
I agree Gary. The Burke affair has been neutralised by Rudd and it’s time the LNP moved on.
The garbage of Peter Saunder’s ‘capitalism’ vs ’socialism’ views include others even invoking Jesus & the apostles as ‘capitalism’ supporters.
Environmentalists total lack scientific evidence & are an impediment to capitalism
The subtext which Saunders & the extreme right lack the courage to articulate
is capitalism should be pure from any regulation , public purpose or social justice
Whenever challenged the extreme Conservatives cho0se diversion rather than interllectual defence.
The US the beacon of unrestrained capitalism is the consequence
While I didn’t see today’s Question Time, and while I would prefer Tanner over Swan, I suspect as long as the over all Government policy is sound Swan will survive.
If there are any Croweaters out there, I read today that we are truly blessed in this state. The Hon Kate Ellis, Minister for Youth and Sport, has a new adviser Ms Mia Handshin.
No 597
LOL Ron, you once criticised me for providing no evidence to underpin my arguments, yet you are hypocritically dismissing mine and Saunders’ arguments on the basis of unsubstantiated, undefined and ultimately irrelevant concerns.
I typed my reply knowing Conservatives reply to be diversion not substance
The extreme Conservatives supporters of unrestrained ‘capitalism’ do NOT like
to debate the US ton the ground status oday IN DETAIL :
because the flaws of little regulation & little public purpose nor social justice are right before your eyes in every city ! ..In the US the flaws are undenialable
Ron, you are completely numb on issues of economics and liberty.
Regarding tonight 4Corners. There was secret deal between JWH and Cossie. Remember how the Rodent was always going that there was no secret deal ala Hawkie-Keating. How transparent he was about passing on the baton to Cossie blah blah blah blah blah. What a effing hypocrite, he knew full well there was a secret deal.
599 Diogenes. Thankyou for this piece of information. If only Labor had placed Mia Handshin as the candidiate for Boothby , we could have had not only a Labor member, but put Andrew Southcott back where he would be of more value as a GP, preferably in the country!
604 Any Libs looking for a job could be slotted into into Springborg’s Office perhaps.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/liberal-loser-joins-springborgs-team/2008/02/18/1203190713383.html
GP, there is also the concept of mutual obligation – that is, if I have worked hard all my life, and paid my taxes, I can expect something in return.
I don’t begrudge tax being taken out of my pay, knowing that it supports others and that similar support will be available to me in the future – it’s just like paying for insurance, except in this case I WILL get something back for it at some point.
I also find your comments about the nanny state hilarious, given the nannying shown by the Howard government. I presume you are for the legalisation of abortion and euthanasia, and that an adult should be able to imbibe soft drugs in the comfort of their own home? Do tell.
605 I wonder if everyone has to jog with Lawrence?
606 [I also find your comments about the nanny state hilarious, given the nannying shown by the Howard government. I presume you are for the legalisation of abortion and euthanasia, and that an adult should be able to imbibe soft drugs in the comfort of their own home? Do tell.]
Unfortunately Zoom I think the only freedom GP believes in, is the freedom to be a mirror image of GP. Anything less is to invite castigation. There have been no recorded instances of GP defining egocentricity as yet.
I wonder does Generic Person ever do anything useful with his/her life.
being ‘generic’ , clearly sex is not an option
609 [I wonder does Generic Person ever do anything useful with his/her life.]
Yep, writes beautiful poetry usually in the form of ryming couplets.
Sorry, I shouldn’t have gone the gratuitous insult option about Generic Person. It’s just the failure to actually engage in debate, and the condescending put downs of people, about whom s/he knows bugger all, that when I get home and visit the bludgers postings, provoke this response. I’ll try, but can’t promise, to be more restrained in the future. Sometimes, the gratuitous insult, the ascerbic comment, the icy cold revenge served with a dash of snark, is just too tempting for such as this mere mortal.
Hey Ron, who said? :
“All of us as Australians have to insist that we can do so much better as a nation. We ought to be angry, with a deep determined anger, that a country as rich and skilled as ours should be producing so much inequality, so much poverty, so much that is shoddy and sub-standard. We ought to be angry – with an unrelenting anger – that our aborigines have the world’s highest infant mortality rate. We ought to be angry at the way our so-called leaders have kept us in the dark – Parliament itself as much as the people – to hide their own incapacity and ignorance.”
Voltaire said
Philosophy without substance , is like sex without a woman
He also apparently said beware of boofheads on the internet too Ron
Reasoned refutation of GP’s positions are few and far between on this blog. Instead we have pathetic ad hominem attacks. Why bother? There are many arguments that can be made against his/her positions, as well as many arguments that can be made for them.
If we could get beyond the extremism often (but not always) displayed on both sides of the argument here, we could get into some very interesting discussions… i.e. how do we effectively address social concerns in a ‘capitalist world’.
Capitalism is NOT the enemy – it is reality, and it would be preferable to have a balanced debate on how social aims can be best achieved with an understanding that the power of the market is a reality that has benifited us all.
If GP is a true libertarian then he/she agrees with few positions of the Howard government… prescriptions of the ‘moral right’ are anathema and cosy business deals are similarly frowned upon.
What’s wrong with belief in the power of the market… billions of individuals making choices… coupled with the right of the community to see the errors of market forces and try to mitigate them? As long as we are rigourously mindful or the weak points of both the extremist left and the extremist right, we can at least address the reality of the situation without falling prey to the propaganda of either side.
The middle road is subtle, and prone to the strongest influence of forces from both sides, but it takes into account all valid positions.
There have been brilliant minds on both sides of the debate… we should at least have the discipline to understand that, and participate in discussion with that understanding.
To conclude… yes, people say dumb, insulting things – what’s the point of sinking to their level.. a discussion of ideas is better than a playground spat (yeah, I know, it’s fun to tee off on someone, but can’t one at least finish with an actual point that advances the discussion?)…
Even if, in the best tradition of the blogosphere, you feel the need to make a witty putdown (sure, great – we’ll all enjoy it), the occasional consideration of the other’s position would do justice to what could be one of the great blog sites.
That is all
Wayaway,
GP’s arguments are very smart – far right people always are. For example, his assertion that multinationals provide people in 3rd world countries with jobs they would otherwise not have …technically correct. But what he does not tell you is that they crush their wages so they can pay them shitty wages with 300 billion profit margins. Nike admitted it was not paying people properly – they could not afford to live in Indonesia. – so its this 1% going to the many and most going to the Western economic elite.
When GP talks about equality of opportunity, not outcomes – ok, but to provide that you have to provide universal health care, universal education (not 100,000 dollar degrees) – both primary, secondary and university education – this simplistic thing about “everything being up to the individual” is just that – the truth is multifactoral – eg: if you have likely to come from a have background, then you are more likely to achieve OR exceptional people always rise to the top, regardless of systemic gender discrimmination – to change the life of the average person you will need progressive public policies….and to think socially which is left wing…
There is increasing evidence now from developing countries that development happens best when the right and left hand side have been integrated – you havethem bothgoing at the same time.
The whole point of being of the Right is that you only get the Right – especially as you hit Ron Paul, the far Right….you do not move from that – its your dominant ideology and you are working within a narrow ideological base
bird,
“The whole point of being of the Right is that you only get the Right …
you do not move from that – its your dominant ideology and you are working within a narrow ideological base”
Possibly true for the far right. The converse is equally true for the far left.
Costello is an idiot! Of course Howard never wanted to leave, but Costello was too gutless to challenge.
Fascinating show tonight, wasn’t it?
Smart thing the Libs did agreeing to that. Sure, there’ll be the odd eruption from time to time (especially over the next few days), but they’ve basically taken the interest out of the story, which otherwise would have dribbled out over a period of years.
Although it’s a bizarrely amazing story, most of the characters came out pretty much as I expected.
595, at the risk of taking you seriously, I think you will find – by referece to your definition – that there are no socialists or communists to be found here.
But what you will certainly discover are people who are correctly cautious about purist dogmas and exaggerated theories, -isms and -arians. You should save your condescension for people who actually deserve it.
Ron you consider yourself a socialist dont you?
I think most cabinet ministers in the Howard government DID understand that you could be worse off under WorkChoices, they didn’t CARE you could be worse off, to them that was what WorkChoices was for!
SO @ 619,
Funny character Costello.
A strange mix – on the one hand obviously quite arrogant, and presumptuous in his assumption that he ought to be the heir apparent, but on the other hand aware enough of his own shortcomings not to want to challenge.
Perhaps he was gutless but I think the real point is that he was never remotely near having the numbers, and he knew it.
blindoptimist,
People who are “cautious about exaggerated theories”??? On this site?
You are joking I take it.
It would seem bird that you have no idea of the philosophical make-up of the political compass. To describe Libertarians as far right is ridiculous. I often see people of the far right describe Libertarians as far left as well. Particularly when they want to describe the views of Libertarian social policy.
I would describe myself as slightly Libertarian, that is I support a free market with only light Government regulation, little or no middle class welfare, low taxes and little government interference in my personal life.
Like many things in life, there are degrees of libertarianism, just as there is far left and right as well as the centre. I would describe Ron Paul as Far Libertarian.
Some background reading.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian
So he should’ve challenged in 1996, lost went to the back bench, challenged again in early 2007 and taken over.
He was gutless, and just didn’t want the job badly enough.
I meant 2006!
Yes, ShowsOn, you can imagine the conversation:
Joe: Hey mate, did you realise that workers can lose conditions without compensation under Workchoices?
Liberal Minister, faking start of surprise: Fair dinkum, Joe, never would have thought it…
I went to a meeting once when Joe Hockey was Minister for Tourism. Thirty tourism operators, Liberal voters to a man (accurate description of sex distribution), went in – thirty Labor voters came out.
He didn’t know ANYTHING – didn’t know when the peak time for tourism was for the community, for example, pretty basic stuff – and made three commitments, none of which he kept.
BTW thought Dolly had overdone the rouge.
What’s up with the shiny nose!?
H”S”O at 612:
“Sorry, I shouldn’t have gone the gratuitous insult option about Generic Person. ”
Fiddlesticks, amigo!
Here’s his/her nibs at 502 this thread:
“Given your near-imbecillic disregard for your own hypocrisy is hilarious.”
Apart from the nightmare of syntax and typos, the commenter is an unabashed sledger. You get what you give in life and in blogdom.
Always trust your intincts. Give the bastard heaps!
AH-OOOO!
“504
William Bowe Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Must be a full moon this evening.”
Reckon The Trump is onto something there.
Come to think of it, nobody bullies me in blogdom. My Minister-for-War reckons it’s the new aftershave she gave me for Chrissy.
SO @ 627,
I reckon his assessment was that the “challenge, go to backbench, and challenge again” strategy had not a snowflake’s chance in hell of working.
And I reckon his assessment was correct.
In my view what he should have done was come to terms with his own shortcomings – that he was not leader/PM material – and then either (a) be a loyal deputy or (b) get out of politics.
Excellent work by 4 Corners. I think Dyno is right that it will have the benefit of taking the heat out of the story, but I also think there is some residual despair at the loss of the limelight from these people. Jackson managed to get all of big names – barring, understandably, Nelson, Bishop and Turnbull, and of course that great big rumpus room pachyderm known as JWH – to talk reasonably honestly about what happened and I’m sure some of them have found it cathartic. I am surprised at their honesty, to tell you the truth.
wayaway, as I’ve posted before, I don’t mind, in fact welcome, a discussion of public policy. It’s why I come to this site. As you say, the economic middle road is difficult to navigate, however, the polity as it is currently constituted, mitigates against any meaningful redistribution of responsibilities and funding streams. The rubbish and waste I encounter in my area of health would astonish you. The 7.30 report tonight report on defence procurement, should give everyone nightmares. This country needs a good overhaul.
He didn’t have the courage to TRY.
Basically Howard was willing to stand down as long as cabinet took the blame. If Costello was on the back bench then it would’ve been much easier to blame Costello if he (most likely) ended up losing the election.
The fact Costello was still in the cabinet during the APEC leadership meetings made it impossible for the other cabinet members to support a challenge.
SO @ 635,
Well it will be an interesting one for historians to ponder.
I personally don’t mind if people decide to change what they’re doing with their lives, or to settle for a position below the top. Whingeing about the boss but not doing anything about it does seem a bit pathetic though, and that’s what PC did.
He didn’t come out of tonight in a good light.
Dyno, i think GP is the exception. He’s fallen in love with a 20th century polemic, poor child. The rest of us, mostly, are not infatuated with doctrine…
Yeah, Enemy Combatant, it’s why I did the slimy thing.
It’s not whether they’re honest or not that’s the problem for the Libs, it’s how it plays in the long term.
NONE of those featured on the program can ever reasonably put themselves forward as a leader again (not saying they won’t try, just that it would be foolish).
“I thought Howard should go but I lacked the courage to tell him.” – plays in the electorate as “I’m a wimp who can’t make hard decisions.”
“I thought Howard was our best chance of winning the election.” – plays as “I have no judgment whatsoever and am totally out of touch with electorate ville.”
“I rang Howard and told him he should quit but he ignored me.” – plays out as “Nobody takes my opinion seriously.”
Let alone “I realised Workchoices was a dud but went out and sold it as the best thing since sliced bread” – I know, I know, party unity and all that, but the electorate don’t judge pollies the way pollies judge pollies. They have this strange idea that, if you think something isn’t working, you should tell people that.
They would have all been far better off staying at home and not answering the phone.
If they wanted catharis, I would have recommended taking a long long walk alone, going to some place they could not possibly have been overheard, having a good yell and perhaps a cry…and then going quietly home.
Zoom, I wish the lot of them had gone for a long walk, a long time ago, never to be heard from again, but most of them are what we journalists know and love as the most desperate of media whores. Makes for easy copy – the buggers can’t shut up. It’s a fatal affliction.
Dyno, perhaps I should qualify my commets. Perhaps I should declare I am a revolutionary, but confine my activism to the gym and the garden these days. In this sense, I am a true post-modernist revolutionary. I am happy about the concept of revolutions, but relieved they generally occur elsewhere and not on Saturday nights, when I like to watch “The Bill”.
I enjoyed ‘Howards End’ by E. M. Forster, but I enjoyed the Four Corners version even more!
zoom,
Beg to differ.
Costello, Downer and (of course) Howard came out badly,. but they’ve gone anyway.
Hockey told (what I assume was) a massive lie about the pre-fairness test WorkChoices, but made a pretty clear statement that he gave it to Howard with both barrels on the leadership.
Minchin said he’d already told him in earlier years.
Abbott said he was always a supporter (therefore, not his job to tell Howard anything). As far as we know this is true.
I’ve got no idea what Robb was saying but he’ll never be leader so it hardly matters.
This story will get the Libs bucketloads of bad publicity for say 1-4 weeks from now. But it’s been 90% killed off in the long run, and most of the people who are likely to play a role in future came out of it moderately ok, or (in the case of the current leadership triumvirate), didn’t appear.
Marktwain, any speculation on the 10 journalists who Kevin Rudd was going to meet at Burke’s dinner?
It was interesting, the 4 corners doco. Himself indoors and yours truly were discussing who was the bravest. We decided none, though there was a bit of open sky between Costello and Tuckey. However, I think Uncle Joe has compromised himself to the extent, he can just about kiss his rear end good bye. So too can Glen Milne. While it’s early stages in the new Fed. govt., I think a lot of folk stilll haven’t really taken on board just what this will mean. Quite exciting really, as opposed to stale economic theory from previous times.
And bird, you are spot on with your comments IMHO
Hockey, as I think I made clear before, is lazy and lacks judgment – I also think (the comments on Workchoices also bear this out) he is incredibly naive. Of course, he sees this as being more clear sighted and wise than those others who didn’t recognise WC was ripping off workers’ rights until he drew it to their attention.
Minchin – well, that solved a mystery for me. Years ago, Minchin was the golden haired boy and JWH’s right hand man. Then suddenly he wasn’t. Now I know why.
But I digress…Minchin gets tarred with the “Noone listens to me” brush. That isn’t a good look (I suffer from this myself – I’m apt to find that things turn out the way I predicted them, but that doesn’t mean people are any more likely to listen to my next lot of predictions – my mother says I suffer from the Cassandra complex). If your colleagues don’t take your grim warnings seriously, there are reasons why they don’t.
Abbott – well, as I said, lack of judgment and the inability of Mr People Skills to understand the electorate.
Yes, this will die a natural death in the short term, but if any of these egos put their heads against the parapet in the future, you’ll be seeing snippets of these interviews being dug out of the archives and replayed and replayed and replayed…
zoom,
You may have a point abut Minchin, but your criticisms of Hockey and Abbott don’t relate to their inabillity (or unwillingness) to get Howard to resign.
Learn’t nothing new in 4Corners story, just rehashed repackaged told before story
Massive forgettable letdown
Stuck around for the “new” Media Watch after it … good lord was that a stinking pile of excrement
60 minutes of my life I will never get back
Hi TurningWorm. Politicians cultivate journalists as a matter of course, no matter how good or bad they are. (My worst case of ‘cultivation’ was by Santo Santoro – it’s too icky to go into here).
I can honestly say I haven’t a clue who most of the reporters invited to the dinner are, although I understand there was one email that I can’t seem to track down – can anyone help? – from Burke outlining exactly how stupid each reporter was. It’s a strange and yet true fact that politicians must work through the various media, and most inhabitants of the various media are complete twits. I’m one of them, so I should know.
4 Corners and the 6 amigo’s …..each straddled on a barbed fence struggling to distance from the Rodents odour but simultaneously saying I’m loyal …but its not my fault we lost
all soon to become a an invisible footnote in history
Abbott – refusal to see writing on wall = lack of judgment/understanding of electorate (good leaders know when to run away very very fast from lost causes)
Hockey – obviously wasn’t taken seriously (if JWH had trusted his judgment, he might have made a different decision; he didn’t, therefore is Hockey’s judgment to be trusted?); dreadful WC quote.
Marktwain, have been guilty (have been?? am) of the journalist smooge myself, always a very funny relationship built on overt friendship coupled with constant distrust.
I suppose some fall into the trap of believing the friendship is real and forget the distrust bit.
Journos I have found are a sucker for the feigned indiscretion – you are indiscreet about something minor, so when you look like you’re being indiscreet about something major, they don’t question your motives.
Great way of planting not-absolutely-100%-true information.
Night all, It’s back to the other folk tomorrow. They’re actually doing reasonably with us. Mostly. We have a terrible problem getting critical people from the disciplines of medicine, social work, nursing and occupational therapy into psychiatry. If anyone out there can help, please let me know.
Pretty spot on, zoom. The better ones amongst us can usually smell the shit from the shiraz, but like politicians we are normal people too. And we all play games. Glenn Milne was – is – one of your suckers, and I think that was borne out this evening on 4 Corners, reading between the Costello lines.
Like I always said about Howard – biggest GRUB ever!
It has been obvious for some time that the Australian people have felt the obvious benefit of having had the pus squeezed out of their boil, ie that Howard has been removed and society has regained a measure of civility.
It seems to me that the Liberal Party is showing some signs of obtaining the same benefits from Howards removal. I find it hard to believe that the party could have brought itself to come so clean on any topic as it did tonight on Four Corners if Howard still infected them.
This strikes me as being ominous for the ALP. A Liberal Party that can step on the mad rightists and religious nutters within could present an attractive face to an electorate in three years if the economy follows the US down the toilet. A party fronted by amiable types such as Turnbull and Hockey could readily project itself as “caring conservatives” who will take away all our pain. The electorate will probably not give the ALP any credits for the state of the economy they inherited nor for the nations lack of control over world events.
The problem of course is what to do with the Alex Hawkes, Sophie Mirrabellas, Wilson Tuckeys and the rest of the lunatic fringe that is coalescing around Minchin, Abbott and Abetz. It would be sad if having had their boils lanced, they find they have a tumour on their right extremity.
Apologies if this has been posted before; I’ve just discovered it. Time to re-live the joy following Nov 24. Men Wot Sing, with ‘Farewell Johnny Howard’:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UMoW8We5GRE
Zoom, just before I go and put my slightly addled head to bed, what are you saying about how pollies and others in the public spotlight should manage things. I might add, I’ve been skewered a number of times.
652 zoom
Abbott still can’t read the writing even though the executioner has been bashing his head against it solidly since November 24 – JWH is still his confidant!
I’ve a slightly different view of Hockey – I reckon the public could forgive his failings in a Hawke kind of way – but it’s several years off at best.
I had a quiet yell as dolly dropped names over APEC and complained that he didn’t have enough time to sort the politics out, and it really brought home how little work those idiots were doing. Keeping their noses in the trough was a full time occupation and running Australia was just a hobby they indulged in on weekends…
Hockey (and a large chunk of the current party) has been brought up in that culture. That’s not going to be good enough in a Rudd or post Rudd era.
On Four Corners
Bears out my assessment ( and Arthur Sinodinos’) which was among the earliest signals. Sinodinos resigned after the early post-Rudd and Julia polls. First signal that someone within the Libs knew they were about to go down the gurgler.
And the program, admittedly old news, does stand as a stark contrast to the public face of the Liberal Party as they took on each of the dismal, for them, polls.
Pretending, as they did, that all was well.
Not, must I angrily say, that this stopped, in fact reinforced their need to rape and pillage for themselves and their mates. I mean superannuation. Put in your million bucks for a tax free bonus. Before we lose office.
Well, I just hope they borrowed freely, and are now paying the price vis a vis interest rates and stock market returns on super investments.
Lateline has a new poll – are we about to get a new thread?
There can be no comparison between “Howard’s End” and the Labor version 10 years ago, “Labor in Power”. LIP was far more interesting and gave an in-depth historical account of the Hawke Keating years. What we had tonight was a u-tube version for people with short attention spans. I really hope that the ABC will do a Coalition in Power series.
Nelson 9% PPM, 70% for Rudd.
TPP 57/43.
Should Rudd call a double dissolution?
Oh, and that’s Newspoll. Sorry.
664 Who’s sorry now?
Landeryou has the ten juornalists here.
http://www.andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/
666 Steve – I would say there is no joy in Nelsonland. I suspect that in Wentworth, champagne corks are popping…
And knives are being sharpened.
And good on Andrew for printing that Judge Growler – ouch to some of those involved.
9% PPM!
21% Drovers Dog.
Sometimes there’s just too much giggle fodder.
Rudd 70% – Nelson 9%
Labor 57% – Coalition 43%
2 losers here.
Horatio Nelson.
Rooster Swan.
I have been amazed how often Turnbull has been out and about speaking as though he was the Opposition Leader lately.
Lateline yet to happen here, in the famed backwater.
671 Steve – Wait, you mean Turnbull isn’t the opposition leader????
Thanks Mr Growler #667. I particularly liked the “Not very pleasant” comment. How succinct can you get? Seems to be an inordinate amount of equine enthusiasts in the list, however …
You mean there is an opposition?
673 Not officially but by this time tomorrow who knows?
676 Steve – But Turnbull gets to ask all the good questions in Parliament! Surely he must be the Opposition leader!?! And he said “Sorry” before any other Liberal! Surely these are the defining characteristics of the leader of the party!
675 Blindoptimist, we were warned that a major event was happening by the increased chatter of the Opposition fan club on this blog in the past week.
675
not any more.
On the 10 Journos:
Rebecca Carmody – “Very pleasant, young women, average journalist.”
*slap*!
Peter Kennedy – “Peter is manageable.”
Ouch!
Roflol
New thread up for Newspoll.