The last significant presidential primaries until March 4 will be held tomorrow our time: primaries in Wisconsin and Washington for both parties, plus caucuses in Hawaii for the Democrats. Discuss them at your leisure here.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
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RB -aka The Taxi Driver
I’l join the ISO if the Democrat nominee wins Texas.
“no country for old man”
not sure if age is a disqualifier but ‘commonsense may not be given the State elects not one Bush but two.
699
jen Says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Ron @ 685
Who then?
Actually Jen , #685 was Davidoff post. Not sure either who he was referring to re ‘blush’
However my mythical Grand Dad says
Son be careful of any women that may blush as they’re is either beautiful or smart or both. I await Davidoff’’s response
ESJ – the ISO has more taste than to let you join.
What are we up to RB the fifth or sixth international? Are you a Healeyite?
ESJ- I’m interested in your snake-oil salesman theory at the time of empire collapse. Are you asserting that the charlatan phenomenon is a causation or a correlation with fall of empire?
A sobering article re the effect of years of conservatism against ‘liberal’ government……written about the US system but has echoes here.
http://www.alternet.org/democracy/77498/
“Those who make peaceful evolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable” -John Kennedy
Diogenes,
I think definitely correlation. By the time an empire reaches decline it has consciously chosen to avoid painful changes and retrenchments necessary to save itself, the snake oil salesman comes along speaking in terms of generalities and vague promises that hard choices can be avoided – which is appealing.
In the US context if you look at the factors in Niall Ferguson’s book – who is willing to openly say any of that? Who is willing to say there is imperial overstretch or that higher taxation is necessary?
Empire’s in decline can only be turned around by the class traitor’s along the lines of Nixon in China who can succesfully attack the conservative interests perpuating a failing status quo. A black northern liberal is not going to be able to end the US National Security state or to achieve an increase in taxation dedicated to public investment. A conservative could.
There is a real argument that the only progressive legislation in America in the last forty years was passed by that dark genius Milhouse.
In BHO’s case he is going down the snake oil path with platitudes and generalities but generally these individuals tend to burn brightly for very short periods of time until they are strangled by the conservative interests who support the status quo. Assuming Hilary loses in March that will start almost immediately after Hilary concedes the nomination from the conservative freakshow.
the same vein a black northern liberal could take on the US teacher unions
but ESJ
what about the arab janissaries ala the turkoman invigoration?
you do realise that your post is an oxymoron gusface?
esj
the byzantine USED the janissaries (christian lads converted and castrated)
to do their dirty work
the USA is using arab proxies to fight its battles
historians agree the janissaries gave the turkoman a reinvigorated empire
your serve
ps obama represents on the domestic front a janissary of sorts as he will bring a new and perhaps unique paradigm (the’fresh face”)
the USA as empire has a while to go
Oh Christ, you’re not still going on about this, are you?
delete byzantine insert ottoman (osman)
ESJ- Barbara Tuchman makes a similar point in “The March of Folly” about an Empires poor choices in it’s decline. I can certainly see the attraction of a charlatan under those circumstances but I don’t know enough history to give scholarly examples. Rasputin at the fall of the Romanov dynasty springs to mind as an extreme example. I’m reading “The Fall of the Roman Empire” by Heather next and I’ll keep an eye out for snake-oil salesman.
How it applies to the US is very intriguing. Basically, you are looking for a politician who will make the hard decisions and get away with them. I would argue that Billary was the least able to do both. Obama is unlikely to be too radical as he’ll be looking at eight years and he’s very young. An old codger like Macca is certainly the most likely to want to make big changes in a short amount of time, esp if he’s really only thinking four years to make an impact.
Heathers book is excellent. you seem to have outstanding taste in reading material diogenes.
I agree re McCain, he may actually have enough cover to do some radical things like pull back in Europe, end the Bush tax cuts, close Gitmo but is he just a militarist in pseudo conservative clothing?
Should they be referred to as:
a) Christian jannisaries
b) Arab jannisaries
c) janisaries ?
Check this story out for a bad look:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/nyregion/23owe.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
#715 They should be referred to as fare for the pedantry of a piddling ponce.
Lol RB,
Tell me as a marxist have you ever rendered paid labour to anyone other than the State?
Does the Ford Motor Company count?
What was that “being amongst the proletariat” type role RB?
BTW ESJ if you want a CV and a list of my political affliliations you’re wasting your time. I’m sure ASIO already know and are unlikely to pay you good money for them.
No Edward it was a job.
ASIO, LOL How touching, it really is a badge of pride for the ISO and like organisations?
It probably would be more upsetting not to have an ASIO file for you I am guessing.
ESJ
actually old chap
from old georgia way (look on a map circa 1100)
grabbed at ten as tribute
castrated converted
ultimately ended running the ottoman empire
you should do abit of reading-helps the big picture
rb
the ottoman (osman) ran on coffee (caf,kaf)
do i know and do i care ?
Clearly it would be upsetting, given their track record of obsessing over even the mildest of dissenting individuals – radical vicars and grannies against the war etc. In any case, I know I have an ASIO file because I have a relative who had to have an ASIO clearance and was quizzed extensively on whether I had any “influence” over him.
But badge or pride or not I have had few concerns about the efficacy of the spook’s organisation and intelligence as a result of two encounters with them. One was when a couple of my student friends, prominent members of the ISO in the early ’90s, got a cleaning job. They found themselves cleaning a police building that was full of photos of demos and the like and eventually realised they’d been given the keys to Special Branch! The other was a request for a (free!) subscription to a red rag I helped produce. It was from the Papua New Guinean equivalent of ASIO. I know this because they sent the request on letterhead – with a file reference in the top right hand corner!
ah the joys of ’swiftboating’.
Some times it may be crude or confronting or subtle or indeed clever , but it does require “imagination” with the purpose of creating fear but at least doubt
First we need a label, lets say the Castrol oil salesman and we need our imagination to cloud our Castrol oil salesman with precedence to prove he will be a failure.Perhaps Helen (no too pretty) or Nero (no the guitar would not do)
Damn it we cann’t think of anyone specific so lets go for broke and say whole empires have been lead to doom my similar Castrol oil salesmen
That consevative Gough did recognise China & another made that ‘apology’
and so we come to Obama…….the 21st Century’s alleged Castrol oil salesman
Mr Bowe @ 711 (irony!) such shopping language…but concur
Meanwhile, Mochy gives them 6 more months,ffs; let’s see, that would be about the time of err what?
Oh, and an update on where the norty little red knob Zimmer didn’t go shopping…amazing what you can still find despite the great closure & redirect concerto currently underway…
I think these people are Ron (@ 727), somebody just forgot to tell them…
http://www.archive.org/download/JIMMA-IRAQ-NEW200008/ver-jsc-22.WMV
The decline, fall and disintegration of any empire is inevitable and necessary, because that is process and rhythm of life. So the decline of the US Empire is a matter of time. it does not matter a bit how powerful miltary, economically and socially it is. It is only a matter of time.
History has shown there is only one civilisation that has shown itself capable of handling this grand “change management”. This is China. China is the only country that has a continuous “government” for over 3000 years. The term “dynasty” was invented in China to ensure this continuity. In the Chinese language “dynasty” and “tide” sound exactly the same and look very similar, except in “tide” 3 drops of water have been added.
The most famous and powerful Chinese dynaties have been the Tang (AD600) and Ming (AD1300) both lasted about 300 years. So for the Chinese, dynasty is like the tide, it comes and goes. There is high tide, king tide and then there is low tide, low low tide and no tide. There is nothing special about any powerful empire.
The interesting question about what is happening in the USA at the moment is the phenomenon of Obama. He is said to bring hope, will bring the people together, to rejuvenate the declining USA, to restore the power and prestige of the USA etc etc. I am not sure because life always delivers to you the opposite of your expectation. That is my only word of caution.
Top of the mornin’ to yez, Bludgers. Just B4 I take me muvver ta church….
How It Could Have Been:
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/billschorr;_ylt=AhrZ7azkWd8bxP1RHOuu8uAxvTYC
But, As The Plot Thickens; How It Really Is:
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/bensargent;_ylt=AgZXzEDZEvczNXUUE3ReeJpN_b4F
And 70 Years On, Why a New “New Deal” Is On The Cards.
(Unless, of course Uncle Sammy slides into Fascism, which of course couldn’t happen while The Imbecile is in charge. could it?)
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/tomtoles;_ylt=AvOJMxrZW7AXHJ8Gr6×7N8ZT_b4F
And Finnigan Plural, this one’s 4U. (Agreed, btw, The Empire is terminally rooted*)
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/laloalcaraz;_ylt=AoIrm1jShkhPMfDEBegaEZLV.i8C
* idiomatic Australian usage.
In the context of the US Election , swiftboating have labelled Obama as a ’snake oil salesman’…….he’ll be called much worse between now & November.
The suggestion that an Obama inspirational type is a snake oil salesman & this type is pecular to a decline in an Empire or that people in a declining Empire find this type especially appealing is wrong. Its fairly either ordinary ’swiftboating’
Brilliant inspirational type Leaders like Obama whenever they appear on the scene are always appealing to the masses and often gain power whatever stage an Empire or civilisation is at.
The more relevant question for thinking people is has he got the goods.Those that support him believe so and point to his detailed Policys both in numerous speechs & on his site.
Time will tell , although expectations are usually greater than reality outcomes of what really is possible.
As to Empires generally , the Finnegans said it all
The USA as empire is embryonic and ultimately a continuation of the judeo/christian empire-it has still a long time to run
Finnegans
whilst partially taken with your china hypothesis-more apt would be the asia/doaist empire-
i am particularly taken with the Obama phenomenon and am quite eager to draw parallels throughout different empires faced with the “changing of the guard’ as i believe the USA is about to undergo tremendous change if obama is elected.
#732 – “judeo/christian empire”? keep religious out of the debate, it will get us nowhere and reduce everything down to being delusional, especially on a beautiful sunday morning like this.
#733 – keep religion out…..
She appears to be keeping her options open in Texas and Ohio go pear-shaped:
http://thepage.time.com/2008/02/22/morning-show-summary-14/
716
Dyno
Ouch! Standing up the ‘battlers’ for some small bills is a tacky look.
George Mega draws Rudd/Obama analogies here, particularly looking at the demographics of youth: http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/meganomics/index.php/theaustralian/comments/keep_kids_in_the_picture_if_you_want_to_win/
Soldiering on in Camp Clinton
A New York Times article looks at the mood inside the campaign headquarters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/us/politics/24mood.html?ref=politics
Did someone say ’snake oil’ and ‘empire’ in the same sentence?
Oh, like the whole sorry episode of taking the empire to war in Iraq on the unctious content of doctored intelligence? Oily enough?
Invade the oil fields of Iraq and set up bases in perpettuity? Oily enough?
Corrupt the processes of government and the constitution with the aid of inept and clumsy partisan Republican toadies. Oily enough?
Dance with the devil of born again fundamentalists. Oily enough?
Let Wall Street get the regulators to turn their backs while they buggered the entire financial system, and then, with the Fed’s new boy, jump in with taxpayers money (actually, more borrowed dosh) to bail out the economy. OIly enough?
One could go on all day, but the picture is clear enough. This empire has just had the biggest snake oil salesmen in the business, send the country to the edge of ruin.
My contention is that the next president of the USA will not be in the same mold as this one, and seriously needs not to be. Time to throw out the remaining snake oil bottles and change direction, real fast, or they are sunk.
737
Pancho
I hope Adam doesn’t read it, or else Mega will end up as an ‘ignorant loathing leftie’ too! LOL
KR, ESJ et al.
Snake oil has a bad reputation but its actually quite good for you. Its very high in EPA which is an omega 3 fatty acid. It helps with arthritis, cholesterol etc in much the same way as fish oil does. You can buy snake oil from chinese apothecaries still in some countries.
Whether we agree with each other or not, this blog is absolutely amazing at picking the Zeitgeist. If I was a political journalist, I’d check it every day. I was checking how many googles you get with “George Bush Snake Oil” and it was 119,000. But what was incredible was one of the recent articles on the antiwar site. The title is:
Can Obama Save Us?
Messiah, or snake-oil salesman?
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12306
BTW Its an excellent, well-argued article.
Intrade – Obama 85 and rising, Clinton 14.9 and dropping.
#742 – i said it before. Once a great satan, always a great satan. obama could turn out to be a greater chief satan, as he cannot afford to offend those off to the right of centre, as the man said: “Will Obama deliver? It’s possible, but I wouldn’t get my hopes up”.
Yes Doc, today’s posts have prescience that could fairly be described as zeitgeist zapping.
*releases hand from it*
Pancho, George M’s article was the best piece of msm journalism by an Aussie on Sep-Oz politics this year by a country mile. Especially these gems.
“It is only when the youth actively engage in the toppling of a government that change is generational in the truest sense of the term. Australia has arguably had two such moments, in 1972 and 2007. The US had it with John F. Kennedy in 1960 and may get it again later this year………….
Obama is playing the anti-establishment card against Clinton. It is not his skin colour v her sex. It is new politics v old. He paints Clinton as part of the US’s BC aristocracy, the houses of Bush and Clinton………..
This is the other thing that throws the grey-hairs. If there is no dollar sign to attach to a young person’s vote, then that vote has no value in the discourse of politics because politicians are generally too dull, and too pragmatic, to think beyond the handout………
Which is why Obama and Rudd are such fascinating case studies. Each practises a form of rock’n’roll. Obama’s stump speech is to politics what Elvis Presley was to music. Elvis was a white boy singing blues and gospel. Obama brings a black man’s poetry to a white man’s game. He is both Martin Luther King and JFK………
Obama happily confessed to smoking pot with a dig at the dissembler-in-chief, Bill Clinton. “When I was a kid I inhaled, frequently, that was the point,” he says. ”
( thereby completely defusing the “issue”)
————————-
And what is it with these rattle-snake handling MSM fundies who lash out at Kid Charisma with the snake-oil salesman bit, when the rest of America’s church-goin’ and clean livin’ folk feel like they wanna be raptured on the spot when Obi launches into his chops.
Messiah? nuh. Rock Star? Bloody oath!! Obi’s a political American Idol.
———————–
KR: [I hope Adam doesn’t read it, or else Mega will end up as an ‘ignorant loathing leftie’ too!]
You ‘ave a vicious tongue in that ‘ead of yours, Kirri, but funnily ennuf, when I dropped me muvver ‘ome from chuch this mornin’ she asked after ‘im real nice like and sed she ‘opes he ‘as the amazin’ grace to say he was wrong and comes back to join in the fun wif all the uvver Bludgers.
EC- I would like to point out that I haven’t said Obama is a snake-oil salesman. I don’t think he is and I’ve been supporting him as any casual perusal of my blogs will show. I was pointing out that it’s amazing how even the terminology of “Messiah” and “snake-oil salesman” are being used in the dialogue about Obama around the blogosphere, independently of PB. This blog is a great example of the Zeitgeist.
745
Enemy Combatant
Ooh, you ain’t wrong about the tongue EC! It’s also connected to a brain, and I find it deeply ironic that when I say, as I did last year, that Obama shares a lot with Rudd (or more precisely, that they find themselves fulfilling very similar roles with a similar modus operandi) I get some gratuitous insults from Dr Adam.
I don’t mind being wrong, but I do resent some puffed up academic who spends his entire life tabulating polling results calling me, and all us other fine bludgers, “ignorant loathing lefties” simply because we express a range of different opinions! LOL
Talk about thin-skinned, hyper-sensitive, and snooty!
By the way, never once I did I see anyone on this blog return the favour and offer anything but their opinions in return, despite the derogatory remarks.
And one more thing, I did not see, nor do I EVER expect to see anything remotely looking like an apology, nor even an admission that he may have been wrong.
Dead wrong, as it turns it out.
I know the type, seen plenty of ‘em.
746- Diogs-
they are copying us. We are the leaders, not just the zeitgeist!
With a few notable exceptions of course.
Well, looks like Obi is almost unbeatable reading the links fellow Bludgers have put up.
I think it is interseting to see some anxiety arising (and I share it) around the idea that he may not actually be able to deliver all that is hoped of him. In truth, I imagine he has no chance of fulfilling some of our high hopes, but if he’s an improvement on the incumbant (and whoTF wouldn’t be), then we are all better off.
KR-
I don’t mind being an ‘ignorant loathing leftie’ as long as I’m right.
Love that.
746
Diogenes
Hang on Diogenes, we don’t need the zeitgeist to tell us anything, that’s why we have experts.
Let me remind you that experts are special people, to whom we all should look…(wait for it… hanging…) up!
If you don’t listen to experts, then well, I’m sorry, but you’ll get what you deserve. So stuff your zeitgeist in the sock drawer, because the zeit is, well frankly, too geist, to be anything but the chatter of the ignorant and ill-informed.
Sorry, mate, ya zeitgeist is mere fodder for newstands by the checkout counter.
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