Roy Morgan, which normally goes easy on “beauty contest” questions, has today entered the fray with a phone poll of 527 respondents. It gives Brendan Nelson the same 9 per cent preferred prime minister rating he suffered from Newspoll, with Kevin Rudd on 77 per cent compared with Newspoll’s 70 per cent. That’s not the worst of it though: on the question of preferred Liberal leader, Nelson can only manage equal fourth place behind Malcolm Turnbull (24 per cent), Peter Costello (18 per cent) and Joe Hockey (13 per cent). Nelson and Alexander Downer are both on 9 per cent. Kevin Rudd is favoured as Labor leader by 66 per cent over 15 per cent for Julia Gillard; in the absence of Rudd, 50 per cent would favour Gillard over 8 per cent for Wayne Swan.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
474 Comments
Interesting, in the preferred PM results, Morgan says “14% can’t say or someone else”…
Does that mean that most conservative voters would prefer Rudd to anyone else??
I love the consistency in these poll figures. 9%. What a champion.
Single digit popularity has it benefits …. I cant think of any!
Loved this comment on the ABC site.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/22/2169665.htm
After today’s effort in parliament and Nelson’s obvious lack of control over the rabble behind him this figure could reduce even further, unless he has a very large family which already accounts for that 9% approval rating.
This is all getting a bit too predictable. When is Nelson going to sink to zero and hand over the poison chalice of Liberal Party leadership to Turnbull? Todays performance by the Libs must be starting to turn the scenario towards inevitable and shorten the time frame.
Clearly, the Libs chose the wrong leader. They should have gone for Turnbull. But the extreme, religious fundamentalist, Right couldn’t stomach the “liberalism” of Turnbull, so they went with the least popular, possibly most inept leader, who will prevent them from coming anywhere near the government benches in the future.
One word sums it up: DYSFUNCTIONAL.
This is the greatest problem that the Libs now face. The Right-wing extremists have control over the party and want to have a socially-conservative leader, but Australians don’t want a socially conservative leader. They had enough of that from Howard. So how do the libs reconcile staying true to their beliefs with a country and society that has moved on… For the next few years, the biggest concern for the Libs will be creating a sense of relevancy. Until then, they will remain dysfunctional.
The Liberal party strategists must come from some comedy show. Pretty smart to make themselves appear like a spoilt child tossing a tantrum – they may have had some fun but do they ever think what view the public will form of them? While Rudd is out doing serious things there they are spitting the dummy in parliament.
Do they think the public will see them in a serious light or more like stand up comedians trying to make fun of government? Good for a laugh but wouldnt choose them to run the country. This is really immature and it seems we will have to wait for their pimples to go away before they will become a viable alternative government.
Rudd must be laughing, these guys have lost focus entirely.
I’d love to see Gillard as PM, though if included in this poll, I would have picked Rudd. Give him at least 2 terms, perhaps 3 before he hands it over to Gillard the Warrior!
How moronic can the opposition get? Today they tried to single handedly turn parliament into a complete circus.
To summarise what has occurred. The new government shifted private member’s business from Monday morning to a dedicated day on Fridays. This means Ministers do not need to attend parliament on Fridays, because by definition they can’t raise private member’s business.
To make this operational, the Government amended the standing orders of the House so that any divisions or quoroum calls made on Fridays will be taken on the next sitting day, i.e. usually a Monday when everyone will be at Parliament House. These amendments passed, because by definition the Government has the majority in the House.
So then we come to today, the opposition repeatedly asked for divisions which have been defered until the next sitting day. This led to Steve Ciobo, the member for Moncrief having spray of general abuse at the Government and the speaker. He was told to sit down repeatedly (from memory about three times) before Speaker Jenkins asked him to leave the chamber for one hour. But he STILL refused to leave! So The Speaker had to ask the Sergent at Arms to forcibly remove him from the chamber.
But this STILL wasn’t enough for the opposition. After this occurred Tony Abbott stood up and just started ARGUING with the speaker! He didn’t move any motion, or take any point of order, he simply started shouting at the speaker. So The Speaker had no option but to kick Abbott out for one hour.
At this point The Speaker vacated the chair for 15 minutes, because the opposition seemed intent on doing ANYTHING to stop any private members business from being called on. After parliament resumed, the opposition allowed discussions on organ donations, and health services, before the stupidity started up again when Luke Hartsuyker brought a cardboard cut out of the Prime Minister into the chamber. He was repeatedly asked to remove it from the chamber, but he refused, so the deputy speaker kicked him out for an hour. But instead of taking the card board cut out with him, he just passed it along to Joe Hockey, who tried to produce some ridiculous excuse to explain why a card board cut out should be allowed in the House of Representatives.
That’s about all I heard, but I can only summarise by saying that we should all thank God or something that the pack of clowns that comprise the opposition are no longer government the country. They have shown today that they are more interested in stunts than contributing to parliament. They understand full well that the Government has the numbers to change the standing orders, and it is a simple fact of opposition that sometimes you are working within the bounds of rules that you don’t actually like.
If they didn’t want that system in operation now, they should’ve done something about it when they were in government.
Harsuyker never left the chamber after being repeatedly asked over a period of about 10 minutes. He continued to refuse to leave, the Opposition continued to simply yell at the deputy Speaker from the benches and the dispatch box, so she suspended sitting stating that “Since the member for Cowper refuses to leave the chamber, the Speaker’s position is untenable.” (I don’t know if the house ever came back, since the cricket was on)
Great work from the Opposition. Really constructive. I have never seen such disrespect for the Speaker’s position and it frankly sickens me.
The interesting thing about today’s shenannigans was that it was wholeheartedly endorsed by all the top Libs, including Abbott, Nelson, Hockey and even Turnbull. Are these guys planning to spend the next 3 years still fighting the last election with ridiculous PR stunts like this?
It seems to me that if I were a backbencher, I would appreciate having a chance to stand up and have my say in the chamber.
My local member here on the Gold Coast, Steve Ciobo, became the first MP forcibly evicted in nearly 20 years. Ciobo is in tight with the wingnut crazies mob, people like Albrechtsen and Arthur Chrenkoff, so expect more of the same.
He also has previous form getting physical in parliament house (he helped Howard cordon off GWB when the Greens’ Kerry Nettle was trying to confront him).
One to watch!
Meanwhile, Dennis Sham-I-am tries to pretend this is a serious point of procedure.
I wonder which ’stunt’ today will receive more approval from the public:
The Opposition making an absolute joke out of our Parliament (and themselves).
OR
Kevin Rudd and Jenny Macklin visiting Indigenous communities and flood victims in Queensland…
Hmmm, that’s a tough one.
has there even been a previous opposition leader poll where the current leader is FOURTH?? Surely this is some sort of record
This is all very interesting for those who delight in poking fun at the Liberal Party but I don’t really think it matters who is leading that Party at the moment. The future belongs to Kevin Michael Rudd and his team, and I expect that will be the case for a while yet. Moreover, this is an unremarkable state of affairs. One side has just been dismissed by the voters, and those voters now (quite reasonably) think that the fresh team should be allowed some time at the crease without the dismissed team sharing any limelight. I’m going to watch the batters now at the crease (particularly the captain) and hope they acquit themselves well because if they don’t, I know many who supported them are going to be adversely affected.
time to rally the blogosphere
and deliver a message that this aint on
the kittens have shown their claws
The last paragraph in Shanahan’s most recent opinion piece really does show which side he is batting for (in case anyone was still wondering):
“There appears to have been some ill-considered preparation on the Government side for how they were actually going to operate a Play Parliament without a Prime Minister and question time and face an Opposition determined to go to any lengths.”
Play Parliament?! Is Dennis using Liberal Party press releases in his opinion columns now, or is he writing press releases for the Liberal Party?
Personally, I don’t think the Government expected the Opposition to have complete disregard for the authority of the Speaker and the rules of the standing orders of the Parliament. Now they know better.
Oh come off it you Labor apparatchiks. Admittedly, it was a circus in parliament but you cannot have Gillard using workchoices props for every day of the last week, and then PM props disallowed. That’s a blatant double standard.
The deputy speaker was awful, completely incompetent and had no idea how to keep control of parliament.
It is serious – the opposition today refused to abide by any ruling of the chair.
This is what happens when born to rule types end up in opposition.
You IDIOT. Two Liberal hacks were told to LEAVE THE CHAMBER, and they refused to LEAVE THE CHAMBER.
Oppositions FREQUENTLY work within standing orders that they disagree with. But for parliament to operate at all, when the speaker says something IT MUST BE FOLLOWED.
That is because the Opposition refused to abide by any of her rulings.
Typical born to rule Liberal crap, they can’t handle opposition.
Hear, hear!
“Nelson and Alexander Downer are both on 9 per cent”. Speaks volumes
Shows On,
I resent your needlessly vulgar personal attacks.
They refused to leave the chamber because the Deputy Speaker was incognisant of previous rulings on props. She labelled the prop “offensive” – a double standard, given Gillard’s antics during previous QTs.
Go to a different forum then.
It is NOT inconsistent! When the speaker tells a member to leave the chamber, the member has to leave the chamber!
The only inconsistency is from the members who are TOLD to leave but DON’T leave!
You just can’t admit that Hockey was clutching at NOTHING, he had NOTHING to justify someone being told to remove something from the chamber, then leave the chamber, but who refused to remove the item or leave the chamber!
Why is it that Liberals actually don’t care about democracy?
I rather think that a month’s suspension from parliament and the suspension of pay and perks for that period (coupled with non entitlement to Centrelink payments for the duration) would put a stop to this nonsense on the part of otherwise unemployable knobheads.
The issue of the props is completely irrelevant to the fact that the member for Cowper refused to obey the deputy Speaker’s ruling that he leave the chamber.
Nothing can excuse this behaviour. It is clear contempt of Parliament.
And how many incidence of double standard did we see from those clowns when they held the Government benches? Never once heard you attack Hawker for his inconsistency, when repeatedly throwing out the then Opposition. I think my partner, who just posted on another blog, has it about right: This just shows the Libs and Nats cannot handle being in Opposition. Suddenly they seem human, says Tom of Melbourne (2.53pm). Appearances can be deceptive, can’t they? The actually appear the way they always have – a disorganised group of Howler Monkeys. Only now they are grieving over the demise of the alpha male, whose successor deserves no respect. The only relationship to humans are their opposable thumbs.
Loved this comment from Shanahan’s blog.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/dennisshanahan/index.php/theaustralian/comments/rudd_less_parliament_loses_all_direction
Yes, his justification was the apparent stupidity of the deputy speaker.
At least the Speaker had sense to use the seargent to keep things amicable.
No 28
David Hawker was a brilliant, upstanding member and Speaker of parliament.
ShowsOn: you seem to have an outstanding knowledge of politics stretching back over many years and particularly from the perspective of one side. I renew an earlier (unanswered) enquiry: are you a staffer or former staffer for an Australian Labor Party parliamentarian, past or present? You will note this question is capable of an answer which does not jettison the anonymity you enjoy on these comments threads by using a pseudonym.
There is no justification for disobeying the Speaker! I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say, GP.
Is it appropriate that the Speaker needed to employ the Seargent at Arms to FORCIBLY EJECT the member for Moncrieff? Personally, I think that is reprehensible and unjustifiable under any circumstances.
Errrrr GP. I think you just fell out of your parallel universe.
No 33
Yes, it is appropriate for the speakers to use any means at their disposal to keep parliament under control.
Hawker kept the rabble under control by throwing out ALP members, a record number at that.
The referee shows a player a red card and he refuses to leave. What do you do? I think you will find that play is suspended or called off. Afterwards, the tribunal will award the match to the non-offending side and the player will be fined heavily and suspended for twelve months.
The most famous example of Hawker’s hypocrisy was when he allowed Tony Abbott to call Julia Gillard a “sniveling grub” without asking him to withdraw. But when THE VERY NEXT DAY Gillard used the same term to describe Abbott, Hawker named her and had her kicked from parliament for 24 hours. See here: http://tinyurl.com/3b3etv
However, just because that was blatantly hypocritical didn’t mean Gillard refused to leave the chamber! She made a point of how hypocritical it was the following day in a question to The Speaker, but she didn’t at any point defy the ruling of the chair.
Do you think it was appropriate for the member for Moncrieff to force the Speaker to take that action?
When asked to leave the chamber, did any of the ALP members in opposition refuse and subsequently be forcibly ejected by the Seargent at Arms?
Perhaps not.
They were never allowed to get that far.
HAHAHHAAHAH you idiot! Joe Hockey CHALLENGED Jenkins for reverting to using the Sargent at Arms. He wanted to know what standing order allows a member to be forcibly removed, even though it has been a convention of Westminster parliaments for hundreds of years.
Even the things you think The Speaker did well the Opposition challenged, which isn’t surprising, because they were challenging EVERYTHING.
You need to admit they were trying ANYTHING to stop the House from considering private member’s business, which is the reason it was sitting in the first place.
How can they when members of parliament constantly defy their rulings?
No I’m not, and never have been.
That’s because they follow the rules, irrespective of how much they disagree with them.
But of course Liberals think rules apply to others, but not them.
Can’t this behaviour be considered sedition? If so can’t we give these mongrels a fair trial and then take ‘em out and gibbet ‘em.
Come come, Generic Person , you can do better than that, even while defending the indefensible. Don’t let me down, I had you picked as one of a handful of competent warriors for the right!
GP. I see. They didn’t voluntarily restrain themselves from going too far and forcing the speaker to take action.
The Speaker somehow forced them to restrain themselves.
Yeah. Very logical. It must be true. GP has spoken!
The referee shows a player a red card and he refuses to leave. What do you do? I think you will find that play is suspended or called off. Afterwards, the tribunal will award the match to the non-offending side and the player will be fined heavily and suspended for twelve months.
And so would the player’s club be fined.
I’m glad to hear that you don’t think that Hartsuyker’s behaviour was appropriate, GP.
However, I’m not sure what you mean when you say that the ALP members in opposition “were never allowed” to behave similarly. Allowed by what or whom?
None of the members of parliament are “allowed” to behave like this, but today’s proceedings in the House of Representatives showed that any member can disregard the Speaker’s rulings if they have sufficient contempt for the procedures of the Australian Parliament.
Surely this is a humiliating indictment on the Leader of the Opposition that he allowed his shadow cabinet and members of the Opposition to behave with such naked contempt for the jobs that they were ELECTED to do!
No 43
Honestly, it’s all a bit of a laugh. It is a pointless day, even if the rabid leftards continue to defend Rudd’s rule change.
Parliament isn’t interesting without Question Time.
It may seem pointless to you, and it may be uninteresting without Question Time to you, but think about the constituents of the members of Parliament who would have had an opportunity to actually be represented by the raising of private member’s business today, if the sitting was not constantly interrupted and eventually suspended by the Opposition.
Generic Person has lost the debate and is now resorting to personal abuse. Typical.
Late news is that a Newspoll of 1,100 respondents found the paper cut out of Rudd the preferred Leader of the LNP Opposition coming in at 80%, followed by a paper cut out of Julia Gillard at 15%
Why do you hate democracy so much?
Passing legislation is more important than question time, especially considering the standing orders that the previous government left the new one.
I think a cardboard cut out of Brenden Nelson may rate higher than the actual Brendan Nelson.
GP. The Australian taxpayers pay good, hard earned money to have am effective, operational Parliament which governs for the nation
It is NOT funny and as far as the Coalition and its supporters wishing it to a pointless exercise, then I think they should all wake up to themselves or resign and join a circus where their suspect talents would be better appreciated.
No 51
ShowsOn, you fiendish imbecile – I did not object to or profess to hate the democratic process.
I simply said that parliament, in my view, is not interesting without Question Time.
No 53
The Australian taxpayer expects the government to be held accountable, not missing in action during parliament.
It seems that your respect for our Parliament may be as low as that of the members for Moncrieff and Cowper, Generic Person. Keep up the good work. Like the Opposition, you are only increasing people’s respect for you.
55.
I won’t answer that. Looks like you have fallen back into your parallel universe again.
the ghost of 1972 snedden, lynch and withers must have been summoned
from the get go they harassed whitlam as they were still in “born to rule” mode.
“according to the opposition leader (snedden) we were very rowdy ….and speaker Cope couldnt handle us”
No 56
Andos, if I did not respect Parliament I would be supporting the use of military force to keep the ALP from being in Government.
Back in reality, I respect the democratic process and the election of new governments, even if I disagree with the political philosophy of the new government.
I think I know what this is actually about. The opposition doesn’t want Wilson Tuckey or Sophie Mirrabella standing up during private member’s business so they can slur Aboriginals. They don’t want Dennis Jensen, or half the National Party members standing up to deny climate change. They don’t want Bronwyn Bishop moving private member’s bills to stop people burning the flag.
Simply put, the opposition front bench doesn’t want the Saturday papers featuring articles reporting Friday sittings where the opposition will be shown as a rabble full of policy extremists.
THAT is why they don’t want private member’s business on Fridays, with the opposition leadership unable to control their own back bench.
So STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT DEFYING THE RULINGS OF THE CHAIR.
The Speaker controls the House, for us to have a functional legislature, we need the rulings of The Speaker to be adhered to.
Your mob will get their turn in ~15 years time, so just sit back and be patient.
Let’s not get too precious, fellow slightly left of centres. The merit of our point is so obvious that to continue to labour it makes us appear sanctimonious.
Laugh of the day is the suggestion above that we should think of the poor constituents not being able to have their grievances aired by private members. Are these the same constituents who apparently voted Liberal? Is it seriouslysuggested that pollies on either side give a damn, or indeed are allowed to give a damn, outside of the party line?
I support the upstanding member for Mackellar in that respect. People should be gaoled for burning the flag.
Perhaps they should not defy the chair, but the speakers should be competent enough to use their full suite of powers to keep parliament under control.
The seargent in arms should feature regularly. The MPs will soon learn.
The behaviour of the person in question today reminds me of a cricket team…does not accept the umpire’s decision and will carry on like teenage bitches because they did not get their way.
As a team, they should take their bat and ball home…as they are not fit to represent their constituents.
Time for a new political force to represent the conservative voters…I have voted conservative before…but never again!!!
They are the perpetual skid-mark on democracy.
The Opposition surely wants to show itself as a competent and viable alternative? Taking digs at Rudd and negativitity has already been shown a useless tactic, they haven’t learnt this yet?
Rudd presented himself as a postive alternative without the negative attacks and behaviour and won – wonder if there is a message in that?
The best that can be said of the LNP at the moment is that they are a Random Rabble. I am reminded of those birds squarking at the feet of buffalo.
The cardboard cutout was funny. Great work! They should have had a moving arm and a voice saying, “when it comes too and the challenge is and the question is. “
Good point Fulvio.
ShowsOn @ 60,
Bingo!
Well go on, petition her to raise it as a private member’s bill. Please do it, it will be entertaining.
Incidentally, I heard more climate change denial in parliament this week from than at any other time in the last few years. It is bizarre listening to (opposition environment spokesman) Greg Hunt crap on about how serious the Liberals think climate change is, followed by Dennis Jensen and miscellaneous National Party hacks who think it is non-existent.
Greg Hunt has a much harder job than either Peter Garret or Penny Wong.
No 69
Yes, I’ve personally spoken to Mr Jensen and I think his views should be silenced in this regard.
The LNP must be pragmatic about its policies if it is to move on.
Steven Ciobo and Luke Hartsuyker spent the afternoon playing dennis.
Isn’t it obvious what the LNP (the party you’re having when you don’t have a party) is doing? At each Monday party room meeting they will take a vote (secret, of course). The person voted the most objectionable the preceding Friday will get to be leader of the opposition for a week, the second will be deputy.
Today’s Hansard is now up for anyone who wants to read what happened.
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/reps/dailys/dr220208.pdf
Remember, Hartsuyker, Abbott and Ciobo were frequently talking after they had been told to sit down, so it is likely a lot of that will be omitted.
I’m agree with the polls.
I would definitly rate Nelson deep below Turnbul and Hockey.
And the cross-dressing Downer is as ugly as Nelson
Not our fault says Andrew Robb. Not their fault says Generic Person.
No! it’s all kevin Rudd’s fault, so there. The Coalition are not to blame for their bad behaviour. No, No. It is all Kevin Rudd’s fault.
Just who do these people think they are kidding , besides themselves.
Forgot the link.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/22/2170175.htm
3 more years and we’re hopefully back in power in NSW, hopefully!
No 78
The People of NSW would have to be obscenely obtuse to re-elect Morris Iemma and his pack of dopes.
Clearly the Opposition thinks the House is their personal property, to do with as they like. In your own house you can misbehave, shout, rant and rave and no-one can throw you out, or so the theory seems to be going.
For the last two weeks the Opposition have been conducting a campaign of trivial points of order, usually on “Relevance”. This is rich coming from them, who used QT to lambast the then Labor Opposition with every possible insult, half-truth and smear that it was possible to cram into the 5 minutes allotted for an answer. Not only disgraceful behavior, but hypocrisy at its worst.
Following on from this we have them now refusing to vacate the chamber when ordered to do so by the Speaker, or Deputy Speaker.
I believe their plan is to make a mockery of the House and its norms, forcing the government to enact ever stricter and Draaconian Standing Orders until expulsions become a routine procedure.
Then they will have their tame journalists, led by the ABC (who love a “scandal”) write it all up as, “Both sides are just as bad as each other.”
It’s therefore incumbent on Rudd to resist the temptation to unleash the dogs. He did a pretty good job of turning his back on Howard and Costello during QT when in Opposition. It riled them something awful, causing them to lose their cool, rather than Labor to lose its.
I agree that something’s got to give before things are brought back to a modicum of civilised behavior. Whether changing standing orders is the best way, I don’t know. I think a few bad polls might do the trick better than anything the government can drum up in a hurry.
Nelson, already on 9% (both Morgan and Newspoll) will start to worry, and pretty soon, if these tantrums cause any more polling blood to be spilled than there is already on the floor. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if this is some kind of oblique destabilisation campaign by the Turnbull forces to humiliate Nelson and tip him out.
Whatever happens I’m bloody outraged at the present Coalition tactic. As many have said above, they don’t own the Parliament, they don’t make the rules any more and they don’t have a clue about policy, now that their main Howardist planks have been cut away from them (by themselves, ironically, as if it had to get any more pathetic before they wake up). They are under the twin delusions that QT is “what it’s all about” and that they are somehow “winning” the QT war, so therefore… guess the rest. I know it’s idiotic, but when their benches are full of idiots, what does anyone expect?
What a bloody surprise, Bushfire Bill. Should we have expected anything less from you, given your undoubted ALP apologism?
Being a pack of dopes (for up to 11 years at a stretch) is not beyond the capabilities of the Australian electorate….
No 82
Fulvio, I think you’ll agree that not even John Howard’s suite of ministers sunk to the lowly depths of Morris Iemma’s ministers.
19 Generic Person – didn’t the Speaker suspend parliament first up? Surely you’re not trying to justify such bad behaviour in parliament are you? If this were the Labor Party doing this you would be calling for all of them to resign.
# 82 Lol, it was Keeting, the ALP should have offered someone else.
GP, you don’t have to be a political bigot to understand that this kind of behavior is truly outrageous.
Please: give us one reason to praise it.
Absolutely love this.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/22/2169665.htm
#78
Do you really think that is possible???
Up here in QLD we are in the same position…what would happen if there was an election and noone turned up???
78 John of Melbourne – A lot can happen in 3 years. Hell, there could be 3 more oppostion leaders in that time. I agree that Labor seems to have run it’s course in NSW but don’t right them off yet. The Libs really know how to lose elections.
Oops pressed SUBMIT too early…
It can’t be heloping Nelson.
It can’t be helping the party’s electoral prospects.
Friday is an extra day compared to Howard’s time, so Parliament is not being truncated.
They seem to setting out to prove that Parliament can only be one thing: a circus.
They cannot possibly win this fight. They don’t have the numbers.
So, once again: tell us what there is to praise about the Coalition’s behavior.
Scorpio, lol, very funny!
Ideas for the Coalition for the next Friday session. Nelson stands up and says, “The Honourable The Prim Minister Mr. Kevin Rudd could not be here today neither he nor the cardboard cut out but we dis brin in this vintage bottle of earwax.” Lol, now that would be funny, Chaser funny
#89 Gary Bruce,
I agree with you! The Libs ecspecially in NSW, know how to lose elections.
No 92
Backstabbing Brogden ended their chances in 2007.
John Of Melbourne, you’re further gone than I dared to hope.
Rudd’s stated intention of improving Parliamentary proceedings in the furtherance of good governance must win out over this clearly disruptive behavior of the Coalition.
It’s lose/lose for your side, mate. All it will do is confirm in the minds of the voters why they chucked Howard and his gang out of office.
Trashing the procedures of Parliament because they lost office is utterly childish behavior and will be remembered next election.
The Libs have taken the attitude of “If we can’t have the parliament operating the way we want it to then we’ll make sure it doesn’t operate at all. Who is wasting our money, the party that wants to see parliament operate or the one that makes sure it doesn’t? Hell the Libs didn’t even have a Friday sitting. So much for Friday question time and accountability back then. Hypocrites.
John of Melbourne,
Are you channelling Glen now. Earwax. LOL
Bushfire Bill, you could be on to something with your theory of Turnbull forces using parliament to destabilise Nelson. The dogged determination with which the attacks on the speaker persisted hints that it was more about internal Liberal Party infighting than whether Rudd was there or not.
The latter would not stir up the vitriolic behaviour that a good public Liberal Party power struggle would produce.
It is hardly hypocritical. The issue here is that if the PM wants to extend Parliamentary sittings in order to enhance the democratic process, then he should fully commit to it, rather than approaching it half-heartedly.
GP wrote: “The issue here is that if the PM wants to extend Parliamentary sittings in order to enhance the democratic process, then he should fully commit to it, rather than approaching it half-heartedly.”
Says who, GP?
The only ones saying this are the Oppositon, i.e. the MINORITY in Parliament. They must accept the rough with the smoot. This behavior won’t change Rudd’s mind.
By the way: have to found anything to praise yet in the currect tantrum throwing tactics?
Answer the question, GP.
99 [By the way: have to found anything to praise yet in the currect tantrum throwing tactics?]
He has indeed BB as a Turnbull surporter he is proud of the destabilising of Nelson on display today and approves of it wholeheartedly.
Scorpio #97, lol, not that I know of.
Bushfire Bill #94, your right it probably won’t be a good look on tv, depending how it is presented but in three years time, no one bar us political tragics will remember.
GP – “It is hardly hypocritical. The issue here is that if the PM wants to extend Parliamentary sittings in order to enhance the democratic process, then he should fully commit to it, rather than approaching it half-heartedly.”
Let me get this straight. Allowing backbenchers to have a greater say in parliament is not enhancing the democratic process? I’m missing something here. Oh, and stopping this process from happening is democratic? I’m definitely missing something.
It is easy to say it was the Liberal party behaving badly. But was it predominantly the Nelson forces or or the Turnbull faction that was bunging on the blue?
101 John – stop coming over as a reasonable, logical conservative supporter. How are we meant to argue with you when you do that?
No 102
Mr Bruce, regardless of what Mr Rudd says about backbenchers having a say, the very fact that the most important tenet of Parliament – the ability to vote – has been suspended on Friday sittings is just ridiculous. Futhermore, if he considers what backbenchers have to say so heartily important, then why did he absent himself?
105 And why couldn’t the Liberal factions have asked the question quietly and orderly instead of descending to a rabble GP?
Gary #104, sorry mate. I’ll try harder.
PS Generic Person #98 is right
GP still dodges answering my very simple question.
Answer the question GP: tell us something praiseworthy about today’s antics.
107 [PS Generic Person #98 is right]
You’ll get no argument with anybody here about that JOM. We have looked everywhere and can find none to his right.
No 108
I have already answered your question. I shall not waste any more time answering questions for people who refuse to read as if in some sort of trance of insolence..
110 Great description of the factionalism on display from the Liberals GP.
“sort of trance of insolence”
Can someone tell me if Howard is still PM and Malcolm “we’ll make it up as we go along” Turnbull is still Environment Minister? We’ve had a Government say they’ll base their climate change policy ad nauseum on the much-awaited Garnaut Report and the science in it. But now it’s out, we’re going to ignore it and stick with the 2050 reductions mooted before the election because they were more politically expedient.
WTF people!! I know Rudd’s done a few good things (mainly symbolic) but it seems he’s going to “me too” the Rodent on slithering his way out of showing some guts. And Penny Wong’s expression looks very similar to Ruddock’s IMHO.
112 Apparently this is an interim report but it doesn’t look good. Looks like an attempt to weasel out of committments.
You have to ask: what sort of constituency would regard the opposition’s juvenile, petulant, tactless, gormless, insolent, impudent, smug, stupid, brattish and incurably unamusing parliamentary behaviour as worthy? As worthy of our democracy’s primary law-making institution? As worthy of a legislature that has so many urgent generational challenges facing it (such as climate change, the water crisis, Aboriginal disadvantage)?
I know.
The juvenile, petulant, tactless, gormless, insolent, impudent, smug, stupid, brattish and incurably unamusing morons who voted for them.
(With all due respect.)
On the news the Liberals looked like a bunch of spoilt brats throwing a tantrum. Maybe we should just let them hold their breath for as long as they like.
Someone should run a poll as to who would be the more popular leader, Brendan Nelson, or the cardboard cutout of Kevin Rudd. Perhaps internal Liberal polling is the reason they’re all so eager to have their photo’s taken next to cardboard Rudd.
No 114
Thanks for the reprinting the thesaurus Mr Westie, it seems you laborites are in desperate need of an education.
115 Think it’s shaping up more like capsicum spray and water canon just to get them to leave when told.
Its amazing even 10 year old kids can see how things are changing for the good. One 10 year old girl has said her friends are commenting on all the good changes that are happening under Kevin.
105 Generic Person – and you still defend the actions of the opposition? Have a think GP. Surely you can think of a better way of making a point rather than making parliament unworkable with stupid stunts. Hell, walk out and don’t take part. Easy. I can’t believe you, as a conservative, is justifying this behaviour. If labor did this you would be all over them and you know it.
118
I’d love to have been the one that ejected the turkey…stick the baton where it fits and parade him out like a paddlepop.
Yes, I would be. David Hawker always ejected roudy members.
Mr Jenkins should do the same. The trouble makers will soon learn. I’ve already made this point, but you continue your feigned indignation atop your moral high horse anyway.
I hope Rudd continues with this Friday parliament unchanged up to the next election. Having the Libs continue to carry on like this close to the election would show Australia how unelectable they really are.
William doesn’t mention her in the thread head, and there have been around 115 comments so far and Madam Mesmer hasn’t blipped anyone’s radar. Perhaps she’s still on the runway, not having taken off yet. Or maybe she’s moth-balled in the Coalition hanger waiting to overtake Dolly in the leadership pecking order. cf. Roy the Boy’s figures.
Guess when you have an intensity problem as serious as Madam M’s, a lot of people think it’s best if they just look the other way.
123 [The trouble makers will soon learn]
Doubt it GP, they will just learn that it destabilises Nelson and gives them a win. How are they going to learn when they are positively rewarded for their nonsense.
You can only laugh at the plaintive bleating of Liberal MPs and their apologists in the blogosphere as they whinge about the parliamentary proceedings being abused by the government. This from a party that systematically abused question time and Senate proceedings over the last 11 years.
o The former Speaker was a disgrace and was probably the most biased one in the history of the parliament.
o They whinge about Julia’s humorous bagging of WorkChoices yet believed that the rantings of Costello and Abbott during earlier question times, to name just 2 offenders, were parliamentary eloquence. Those two were past-masters at abusing the process.
o The Liberal Party is incapable of dealing with defeat. Their behaviour today was truly infantile and their promise to carry on like this each Friday will come back to bite them on their collective bums. As others have noted, the MSM would have crucified the ALP if they had done this last year. We know what will be parrotted by Albrechtsen, Shananan, Bolt and the rest of the revolting News Ltd crew, but we also know that most people will see this behaviour for what it is – pathetic.
The Liberal Party had set the bar of Parliamentary behaviour so low that I thought no one could get it lower. I was wrong. The current bunch of Liberals have set it on the floor.
123 Generic Person – yes Hawker did GP and guess what, those asked to leave went without question. They certainly didn’t have to be escorted out. Now think hard GP, whose fault is it if when asked to leave the champer the member refuses to do so? The member or the Speakers? Don’t think too hard, it’s not difficult to answer. You’re blaming the wrong person GP. Your heroes need to look into the mirror to see the real culprits.
Comments by Bushfire Bill and Inner Westie deleted.
112 Diogenes -
Yes Diogenes, this was the big political event of the week. They just about wiped the whole Garnaut exercise before it started. If I were Garnaut I’d resign the retainer now. This is a miserable pathetic cave-in by Rudd on THE main issue.
Where’s the leadership??
Honeymoon over. Sickmaking season starts…
and continues …
Driving all day today as I was, the radio kept telling me it was a shocker for Labor in NSW as well. Everyone has known the NSW ministry has had some corrupt mongrels for a while, and it’s great to see some of these crooks likely to face the music. It seems the party will put up with their brazen corruption and gross incompetence as long as the bastards kept the money coming in.
some serious website lag for the last half hour! I hope all is well in the state of bludging pollsters.
112
Diogenes
Ah yes, the old “my target is bigger than your target” syndrome.
Let’s not forget here people, that most of us on this board will be adding to the carbon cycle personally by 2050, and that it’s not even guaranteed that there will be a two party system in a country called Australia by then!
(Republic of Barbies, maybe?? LOL)
So getting all hot and bothered about a report in 2008 and projected cuts in CO2 for 2050 is not making much sense, is it?
Hmmm Rudd sticks to election promise of 50% by 2050 and is crucified. The guy is only trying to actually *keep*election*promises*
A lot can be done within that 50% figure and an updated figure taken to the next election.
At one stage today the House was ‘quietly discussing’ increasing organ donations, an urgent need, when some clown came in again with the cardboard cut out.
Don’t you just love the arrogant hypocrisy displayed with this.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/22/2169400.htm?section=justin
It’s more than passing strange, that Nelson was given an opportunity a week ago to join him for this visit and declined, deciding that it was more important to attend today’s sitting.
We now know why, but to have the nerve to criticize Rudd for not taking Nelson with him today, shows just how out of touch and how incompetent/unprincipled this rabble really are.
Diogenese and Jaundiced View, I admit to being somewhat taken aback by Penny Wong’s response to the interim Garnaut Report. Why couldn’t she say, “Well, this is very worrying in relation to the targets we took to the electorate. We need to consider the final report, and some other advice, particularly given the current and emerging economic situation, domestically and globally, and may need to reset the targets.” ? I just hope they’re not going to rigidly stick to what they took to the election, such as the tax cuts, no matter what, despite changed circumstances, information and so on. That way, a one term phenomenon lies, in my view. BTW, Steve, I did thank you and Unicorn on the other thread for the info. you provided.
The ABC TV News was interesting to say the least. Images of confected outrage from the regressed Opposition in the Parliament and Kevin out speaking with Aboriginals in Walgett and hugging flood sufferers in Mackay. Despite my deep suspicion of the online ABC news reporting, as well as some current deep concern about the TV reporting of a current court case (the judge is deeply displeased!), I thought the juxtaposition was just brilliant.
Now, Generic Person will probably accuse me of being in need of an education, with some whacky adjective attached to qualify said need.
Scorpio, Yep, that style of ABC “reporting” is exactly what’s getting right up my nose. A few other Bludgers have noted similar and repeated offences. Might be time for a concerted response to this. Do they think no one notices? Particularly people who watch or listen to the ABC? Dills, drongos, are they?
132 Thomarse – The Garnaut process was supposed to inform the post-election policy. Nothing else makes sense. It was the dismissiveness of the comments today by Wong- as Harry SO said at 134 – why the need to be so strong?
Unless you’re trying to be more conservative than the conservatives, which is what I suspect. If so, again, it’s pathetic. Where’s the acceptance of rational scientific opinion as a basis for policy-making? I thought that was what we were supposed to get from Rudd.
131 KR- I believe that was the Rodent’s argument for not setting a target before the last election. Not especially compelling and I’m hoping you were not being serious.
132 Thomarse- Rudd said their policy would be guided by the science to do what was necessary, rather than the politics. Now that they’re in power, it’s the politics rather than the science that they listen to. And they’re doing it because they are so cynical (small “c”) that they know they’ll get away with it, because the Opposition can’t get up and say they would reduce emissions more than Labor.
134 Harry- I completely agree. They have already binned the full Garnaut report before they’ve even got it. The spirit of John Howard is alive and well in current Labor leadership. It’s just better disguised.
The Garnaut terms of reference are at:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/garnaut-climate-change-review/2007/04/30/1177788044882.html
Kevin Rudd on 30 April 2007:
It will be a critical report in informing, for example, the shape of the emissions trading scheme that we as a national government would then implement. That is one of the key reasons why we need to have this report done as well. One is to advance a clear argument, a clear and quantifiable argument with public debate about the economic and jobs cost of not acting on climate change. The other is to analysis clearly and carefully the economic impact of alternative mitigation strategies on climate change. That helps shape how we design for example, an emissions trading regime. (http://www.alp.org.au/media/0407/pcloo300.php)
The emphasis is on the economic impact of global warming. I don’t really see that the current government can be blamed for taking this as only part of its input to a Grand Unified Plan.
The pollster need to make it more interesting, how about adding say Juli Gillard to the list of preferred Liberal leader and see if she out polls Turnbull.
137
Diogenes
What we do now, and in the life of this government is FAR more important than getting hot under the collar about 2050.
Not that it’s not important, but if we fail NOW, it may be of academic interest only what we might be doing then.
138 ViggoP- One of the core premises of the report is as follows:
“The weight of scientific opinion that developed countries need to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by 60 percent by 2050 against 2000 emission levels, if global greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere are to be stabilised to between 450 and 550ppm by mid century.”
The target of 450ppm delivers a 50% chance of a 2 degree C increase in temp and 550ppm almost guarantees it on the current evidence. Rudd only promised a 50% reduction. Rudd’s refusal to be guided by science and Penny Wong’s contemptuous dismissal of altering the target guarantees significant climate change will happen under a Rudd Government.
I can’t help but laugh at the global warming hysteria.
Get a grip Diogenes: [guarantees significant climate change will happen under a Rudd Government.]
What the hell are you on about? The 60% target is exactly what was recommended by the IPCC report.
Harry
unfortunately the major changes will happen post budget (as with other areas)
though moves are afoot via ‘friends of the abc’
expect some early movement from ideological warriors
142 GP- Rudd’s target is 50%. 60% is actually more than 50%, by about 10% I think. And the November IPCC report was more pessimistic than the ones the 60% was based on.
Either way, Diogenes, to say that Australia will suffer “significant climate change” under Rudd is just a ridiculous statement. Promulgating hysteria doesn’t aid the debate.
Crikey Whitey,
If you are on-line, here is a follow-up on what you were discussing last night.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/22/2170408.htm?section=justin
GP- I am using the term “significant” in its scientific sense, as in a variation caused demonstrably other than by chance (within 95% confidence limits). A 2 degree change would be significant. I’m not suggesting that within the 3-6 years of Rudd that this would happen, I’m saying that if his approach was continued by 2050 there would be a significant (more than 2 degree) change in temperature. This is a factual argument based on the best available evidence which is not promulgating hysteria.
Downer said he did not attend parliament as question time was for the front benches only of the government and opposition, yet when labor make Friday a day for backbenchers to be heard and to voice their and their constituents concerns the libs go feral.
Hockey was trying to make a point about the legalities of suspending standing orders and the order of procedures when a vote is suspended. It was a fair point, but to complain they wanted Friday as a question time when one of their senior libs in Downer has said backbenchers are not heard and should not bother turning up defeats their argument, especially when they complained about Friday sittings happening at all.
This article from the SMH has a few details on the Tavener poll on NSW, only 550 people sampled. 60% have lost confidence in the NSW govt, poor results on roads and public transport but Iemma gets better recognition than O’Farrell.
2pp is 51-49, small sample but why the libs are not streets ahead in NSW shows the sorry state of their party. The libs need to do in NSW what labor did federally, give O’Farrell or a new leader extensive powers in deciding candidates and the front bench. If O’Farrell could cleanse the libs of the far right and religous extremists and was given decent power he could start seeing poll numbers that labor enjoyed under Rudd in 07.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/02/16/1202760661169.html
SMH article re the Tavener poll. How can 60% of the people have no confidence in the govt yet still prefer it over the opposition?
This will have Bill spitting,
“A former Liberal government minister in SA Robert Brokenshire is being tipped to take Mr Evans’s seat in the Legislative Council.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/22/2170418.htm?section=justin
Family First are Finally Finished!!!!!!!!!!!
How do you work that out, Brenton?
A few things about this morning’s question time debacle:
1. The Liberals’ behaviour was abhorrent and they deserve censure for it. Not only that, it was amazingly stupid, because they had a couple of points that (whilst possibly trivial) deserved to be heard, and all that’s happened is their antics have become the story.
2. The Friday Minister-free sittings are a joke and one has to wonder whether Rudd’s motives were lily white in introducing them. I feel queasy about the concept that there can be a sitting day on which divisions are not permitted (I’m assuming this has never been the case previously, I’ll happily stand corrected if it has been). Whilst the current government’s majority is not under threat, a future government with a shaky grip on the House might want to extend this provision to make it hard for the Opposition to vote them down. It’s just not a good direction for Parliament to head in. Another thing is that (whatever the previous government’s sins in this area) this new set-up does seem to be further institutionalising Ministerial contempt for Parliament. I hope Rudd gets rid of Minister-free sittings after this session (or this year).
3. The Speaker should have been firmer on Gillard’s use of props earlier this week.
4. The cardboard Rudd was a vaguely reasonable (if incredibly juvenile) way of making points 2 and 3 above. Clever in its way, as it made both points within the same stunt. But the Opposition yelling and screaming, and above all, refusing to walk when the umpire’s finger went up, was just unbelievably crass, and a disgrace. I revoke (for the time being anyway) my statement of two days ago that the Libs were showing signs of wanting to win again.
Sorry “non-question time debacle”
Dio @ 112,
I have to admit I’m freaking out about climate change and I think most others with half a brain are doing the same.
But … would there be any practical difference over the next 2-3 years if we committed to (say) 90% reduction by 2050, as opposed to 50 or 60%? (This is not intended to be a leading question, I honestly don’t know the answer).
Brenton Says: @ 151,
February 22nd, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Family First are Finally Finished!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/22/2170418.htm?section=justin
William Bowe Says:
February 22nd, 2008 at 9:19 pm
How do you work that out, Brenton?
Scorpio says,
How do you work that out, Brenton?
Hello Scorpio, just arrived home.
I will have a look at the article. And yes, that is exact. About Kevin Foley.
I have heard before that Nicole may well stand again.
She would very likely win. I have pollbludged heaps on this matter, which you may have missed. And studied the AEC results in every single booth. (Records kept on a spreadsheet) Picked the likely winners and losers, to test myself before I embarked, and got them right.
Some will never go Labor, but many could easily have been won. Nicole has the qualities of charm offensive combined with intelligence and a philosophy, based on her own rather challenging life experiences, which aligns with either small L Lib or Labor. Actually, as I write, Maxine comes to mind. Of course that Maxine has huge experience and is accustomed to public exposure.
The very thing the media here spotted and honed in on, to her disadvantage.
Yet Nicole seems to possess the intelligence, qualities and basic decency which we see in Maxine.
I heard on ABC Nat news at 5.00 pm a promo, interestingly, for the upcoming Australian Story on Nicole. This indicates a serious push, to my mind.
My understanding (I have close friends working in the field, who are internationally respected – one is an IPCC member) is that we could close down all carbon emissions tomorrow and still be looking at severe climate change.
The reaction to any kind of predicted challenge goes something like this: outright denial, sceptism, questioning, qualified acceptance and then, usually, a jump straight to total belief.
The jump can be accompanied by total despair (we’re all doomed, there’s nothing we can do) or over compensation (we must close down all coal fired power stations immediately, stop driving cars etc).
As always, rationality lies between the two positions – yes, we can do things but we must keep some perspective.
So my friends, climate change experts, have air conditioned houses, drive cars, etc etc – they say it’s important not to buy into guilt but to understand their impact on the environment and compensate for it where they can (so air conditioning the house meant also buying solar panels to compensate for the amount of power used by ac).
Adaption is actually more important than mitigation, because SOME degree of climate change is already happening and will continue to happen. Mitigation simply means that, at some point at about 30 years from now, we’ll reach a plateau rather than keep rising.
The Garnaut report was an interim one. It’s only been out a couple of days. It would be very foolish of anyone to make any commitments based on it yet.
It would also be very foolish to make judgments about future government actions on it yet.
Wait and see.
Crikey Whitey,
With William’s kind indulgence, I can report back to you following our discussion last night.
My in-laws did know your parents.
Father in-law knew your Dad well.
I now know which schools you all attended, church also.
An Aitchson lives next door to the in-laws.
My wife was also a member of the Tennis Club but believes she is about 10 years younger than you and never played there at the same time.
In-laws knew most of the families you mentioned, some very well and my wife went to school with many younger members of them.
Diogenes – Garnaut himself said that it was a waste of time going for the 90% reduction on our own. Given that few countries have committed to any worthwhile reduction it seems pointless for us get hairy chested at this point. There’s a lot of hard bargaining still to come.
Not that I believe it will get us anywhere. History has time and time again shown that humans will continue to foul their nest even when it’s clear that doing so will destroy them. Easter Island being the most sobering example.
No wonder this country is stuffed.
We have a two-party state with two self serving groups that pretend they represent different philosophical positions (”left” and “right” hahaha ) (is it the Laberal and Libor parties????).
This parliamentary debate is a sort of pre-school petulant debate over nothing (appologes to more mature pre-schollers) … although I agree the liberal party is extraordinary in its childishness ….. i think this country is not served by either party….. both parties agree on preventing any real political competition ….. so much for market forces!!!
I agree Mayo .. It is inconceivable that so many countries with so many powerful (short-sighted) groups in control will agree with any thing .. just look at Australia’s political parties (both Labor and Liberal)..
Zoom, if you’re interested, you might refer to my post at 134. Maybe, just maybe, the Fed. Govt. although newish, needs to be less rigidly restrained by it’s election promises?
Scorpio.
Today I took a friend of my oldest brother through the the pertinent bits of the thread. She arrived at your ‘ in laws in Broadway’ and gasped. Not your Broadway? Read on, sez I.
This is fascinating and remarkable. You must give me a clue. Who are the in-laws?
Did you see the later comment by Rusty on that thread? I would love to know who that is.
My name is Helen.
If the Liberal Party behaves in this fashion for too long they will begin to be seen as a joke and lose further credibility. Given how far they are behind with the little talent remaining this is the last thing they need. They should be seeking ways to regain credibility. The class clown, even though giving everyone a good laugh, never got elected to be president.
Rudd has 70-77% approval rating, Nelson 9% and they decide to become a rabble in parliament? Where are they getting their advice?
Tanner and Abbott on LL
no not disagree Kina , but the Friday itting day is not a clever political decion because the Libs are just going to TRY & paint Rudd as a 4 day a week man
Crikey Whitey,
I mentioned to my better half about Rusty’s post and she was quite intrigued also. I assume Rusty is female.
Clue……same surname as a certain author by the name of Michael Cr…..n.
My wife thought that might be your name.
I take it you are now closely related to the Whites.
Harry , how is Rudd going to be able to delay the tax cuts ?
**Retraction alert**
I have erroneously said Rudd committed to a 50% reduction by 2050. Mea culpa. It was 60% (apologies to GP BTW. God I hate saying that!)
http://news.smh.com.au/govt-wont-budge-on-2050-climate-target/20080222-1trj.html
The gist of the argument stands though. I’m certainly not saying the 2050 target will hugely affect what happens in the next 2-3 years. And I agree with MF about the little Oz can do by itself.
What disgusts me is that the Rudd Government said it would base its targets on science rather than politics (esp the Garnaut Report). Now that science is not giving it the answers it wants, it’s decided to put it’s head in the sand (or an even darker place) where it prefers the view. It has demonstrated that it will play politics and will ignore dissenting views and expert opinion, just like the Rodent.
In the words I quoted a few days ago from the great man John Maynard Keynes “When my information changes, I change my opinion. What do you do, Sir?”
Oh Ron. I would not dismiss you as a man of few letters.
It will be all right.
No 158
It is nice to know that members of the IPCC recognise the realities of the climate debate. Hysteria, needless guilt-mongering and economy-destroying policy does not solve the ultimate problem.
Even the Garnaut interim report acknowledges that Australia’s total emissions are low compared to other nations. So, without an adequate global agreement that includes developing nations, it is naive to think that Australia can have any material effect on global gas abatement.
Damn, this Crikey…Scorpio..Rusty thingy is much better then all that other political rubbish
It’s also proof that something interesting can happen in SA
Ron, I thought, and I could be wrong as i’m not any sort of economic expert, that the tax cuts, as promised, could be chanelled into, oh, some sort of nation building exercise. Audit the nation for alternative energy options in terms of natural resources, what research is being done in alternative energy, what are the options for weaning coal companies and getting them to focuss elsewhere, that sort of stuff.
Crikey Whitey,
Did you catch my post @ 159?
It must be an unusual feeling to realise that someone you do not know personally, living 3,000 K/s away, can know so much about you?
Would appreciate your comment in this regard.
Cheers, Scorpio.
No 170
Your apology is accepted Diogenes. However, with respect I do think Mr Garnaut’s proposed abatement targets to be too extreme. You cannot change economies overnight and the brevity with which he treats the hefty challenges of energy tansformation are not encouraging.
Actually GP no , we are 1% ahead of the Kyoto requirements
but I trifle because Garnaut is saying “action must be taken before 2020 by the World because the emissions have grown since the last analysis because of China & India’s growth
Mr Rudd …you said you’d rely on Garnaut’s science and substantially at least I expect you to do so
classified,
With all this intrigue being uncovered, it’s a shame Keelty and Co of the AFP couldn’t engage some of us to competently do some of their work for them.
Diogenes at 170, I share your distraught state, but ask you, as I ask myself, what is politics but the art of the possible. I’m damn sure that it was a Greek who came up with that.
Scorpio. Thanks for the clue.
Michael of Jurassic Park fame? If so, I don’t know the name. I will ask my older brother, who is presently out of contact. Not at all related to or intermarried with the Whites. My maiden name is McKeen.
Cannot guess Rusty’s gender, but I was the first girl after four boys.
Scorpio @ 178
lol… how true
To which post are you referring?
In any event the Kyoto targets allowed us to increase emissions to 108% of 1990 levels. Plus or minus 1% of that figure is still comparatively low, at least when looking at total annual emissions figures, to other developed nations who are also signatories to Kyoto.
I love watching Friday Night Crime. What a distinct pleasure for it be followed tonight, by Friday Night Farce, Lateline.
174
Harry ‘Snapper’ Organs Says:
February 22nd, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Ron, I thought, and I could be wrong as i’m not any sort of economic expert, that the tax cuts, as promised, could be chanelled into, oh, some sort of nation building exercise
Harry the crude reality is it is politics , the tax cuts can not be reversed otherwise Rudd would lose the next Election.
Not to appear contradictory however, the tax cuts will feed into consumption bloat the existing trade deficit debt of $440 billion , pressure over taxed capacity
at a time when money costs are increasing…all 3 factors lead to interest rate rises unless Tanner can offset. Economically the $31 billion should have gone to capacity (skills & projects) but Rudd had to match Howard’s promise to win
sorry for long blog
No 184
Governments should cut spending and cut taxes wherever possible. Individuals are the best deciders of how to spend their own money.
176 GP- I haven’t suggested that we change our energy policy at all based on the interim Garnaut Report (and will not suggest a change based solely on the full report). What galls me is Penny Wong refusing to consider changing her position because the election promise of 60% reduction by 2050 is more important to her than recent scientific evidence. She should be saying exactly what Harry said at 134. As you point out, the change is enormous given the speed the experts are telling us the world needs to change (and as has been pointed out, that will not happen). My impression was Garnaut was meant to tell us how to effect that change without disbanding our cities for communes.
BTW I also agree with Harry and think Rudd should halve the tax cuts and invest in buying back water licenses on the Murray, climate change technology research esp carbon sequestration and addressing the skills shortage.
Ron, that’s my and any number of other’s worry. That crude political demand will produce a less than desirable result.
Crikey Whitey,
Yeah, Jurassic Park is right.
I thought this short post on Tim Dunlop’s site was good.
http://blogs.news.com.au/news/blogocracy/index.php/news/comments/garnaut/
@180, On this blog, I am almost embarrassed to say it, my first name is Glen
My father was in the home builder’s when your father was. My mother Audrey was a good friend of your mother’s.
Well, we’re all experts here politically aren’t we?
GG said @ 185,
I beg to disagree, GG.
My wife thinks she is by far the best at deciding how to spend my money.
Well, when the shit hits the fan, it’s going to hit hard. Where will Howard, Blair and Bush end up I wonder?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/be360d5c-e0b0-11dc-b0d7-0000779fd2ac.html
Generic Person is a troll par excellence. Don’t feed him and he will go away.
Scorpio, how can you have any qualms about your wife’s spending? Are you sure the discounts and sale items have been adequately described?
Generic Person Says:
February 22nd, 2008 at 11:30 pm
No 184
Unfortunately at the moment our economy requires us not to spend, also given the popularity of SUV’s and drugs (booze my friend booze) I find this hard to believe.
Rusty @ 189,
Sorry to assume you were female.
Glad to see you are helping to unravel some of the intrigue which has been flowing since yesterday.
I wonder what else we can uncover this evening?
Suspect Garnaut was setting the tone to get Party’s focus.
His mandate included targets within our economic capacity & assume his finalk Report will do so & I hope Rudd accepts his report substantially
Do not understand anyone saying the costs of climate correction actions now will be daearer than the same actions forced on us in the longterm if we do not act now
Harry @ 194,
I’m not game to ask, Harry.
I’m not exactly tired of living quite yet.
No 193
No John. It’s just that you don’t like the argument and have no adequate response.
No 197
Admittedly I only had a cursory read of the Garnaut Report on the way home on the train yesterday evening (only to arrive at my car having been broken into by some errant criminal), but I personally thought his approach exuded too much”doomsday” scaremongering.
Hmm, fellow bludgers, there’s any number of things I could add, no doubt il- considered leftoid rant and such like. Again thank you for the stats info from Unicorn and Steve. I think I’ve got it. Night all.
gp et al
i equate CC with flat earth-provable depending on the science
50s UFO woooo
60s CONSPIRACY louder wooooo
70s A_BOMB double loud woooooo
80s FAMINE triple… woooooo
90s CHEMICALS quad… woooooo
00s CLIMATE Change crescendo of wooooos
Sorry, Scorpio and Rusty, delayed watching Lateline.
So, Rusty! Good Heavens. Audrey and Wally, yes?
Scorpio, I just saw your 159 on Oh, what a feeling. Pondering.
Harry it was your comment last night that actually showed me the significance of what Unicorn was saying. Thanks for that.
BTW
anyone remember
DA MILLENIUM BUG
omg devastation ,back to the dark ages,financial chaos,nukes going off spontaneously
close to 400 bill (1999 dollars) spent
once someone can show me terra forming technology i may be interested
Noticed, belatedly, classified at 173.
Classified, I have to say, it really is intriguing.
William may find an unexpected way to make a profit from his site.
William Bowe and Tim Winton.
A First. Oz blogosphere. Politically themed.
Sort of Cloudstreet in Cyberspace.
Well Laurie Oakes put the lie to the commentary that Swan should go. Worth a read.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23258322-5001030,00.html
Scorpio has once again misrepresented me as GP in post 191. This is the third time you have made the same error/mistake in the last few days.
I have politely and good naturedly pointed this out on the two separate previous occaissions. Yet this third item appears.
As Auric Goldfinger said in Fleming’s novel Gold finger, “Once is happenstance, twice is co incidence and three times is enemy action.”
Scorpio, I am more than happy to be responsible for what I do say, good and bad. However, I do take exception to being misquoted and/or misrepresented (a la Grace Pettigrew and Marky Marky).
No more co-incidences, please.
207 Gary Bruce, it was amazing the enthusiasm shown by the resident trolls after Bolt got his Liberal Party talking points and lead the charge. Good to see that the record has now been straightened out to some degree.
Another thing about the whole Turnbull silly question to Swan saga is apparent if it is viewed through the current ppm lens. What did Nelson do, say or achieve on that day? I have no idea and I am sure nobody else does either.
Bolt and his cheersquad of trolls ensured that a huge backhanded compliment was paid to Turnbull by running the line that one tricky question from our golden boy has cut the career of the serving Treasurer of Australia. Once again whatever Nelson tried to get up on that day is swamped and lost.
Nelson will not be rolled by doing the work he does but by the continual public undermining by Turnbull supporters which is now in full flight in public forums and especially in the parliament itself.
steve,
Laurie’s article makes some good points, and (subject to any bizarre, as yet unthought of developments) Swan is in no danger at all.
However, Swan will struggle to match Turnbull’s articulate delivery (call it showing off if you like, the label doesn’t matter). Whereas Keating and Costello both have the gift of the gab, in spades.
Swan’s unlikely to lose his job as a result. Brendan might, though.
Greeensborough Growler Says: @ 208,
GG, profuse apologies if I have offended you by any misreference to you in any of my posts.
Totally intended up to date. Probably early dementia setting in, although worth checking to see if I was actually referring to “The Australian” at the time.
I am still in the habit of referring to it as GG, and am struggling, as many others to find a suitable replacement for a very familiar term.
Please delay “Enemy Action” until such time as a genuine “Frontal Attack” is waged upon you from my section of the cosmos.
I try to attack the argument or position put forward and not the person and any variation from that is purely accidental or misconscrewed.
Enjoy your day blogging.
Cheers, Golfer.
Greeensborough Growler,
Crikey, we are a bit sensitive, this morning, aren’t we.
Did you get out on the wrong side this morning or have you been told to mow the lawn or some such dreadful task?
Post 191 was a usual poor attempt at humour directed non-maliciously at Generic Person.
I now join a growing list of posters who have accidentally mixed you, GG up with GP.
Dreadfully sorry. Especially so as GP may have missed the little dig.
It is becoming apparent that Nelson’s biggest gaffe so far is leaving Turnbull as the Shadow Treasurer, he was better off shoring that job up for someone he could trust to some degree.
I do like the cartoon today in “the Australian” today. It has Hockey telling Nelson that they have a problem as the cardboard cut-out is polling better then him. Almost made me laugh as much as Mumbles “Leave Swannie alone”.
On the Morgan Poll itself: This has got to be a fairly rushed job. For one thing the heading on preferred prime minister reads “Howard vs Beazley” which suggest the template hadn’t been used in about 15 months.
The question on ALP leader I found a little funny. In what I think might a worrying sign for Rudd; 1 in 3 ALP voters named someone else as there preferred party leader. Gilly might be challenging soon. Also Macklin seems to have a lot of support from Family First Supporters (20% which I think it equals one voter).
Over on the Liberal side, Nelson is not only coming forth but Bishop, Abbott and Downer are not that far behind. Maybe they should setup a rotating captaincy like some AFL clubs use; everyone gets a go until one stands out. It couldn’t be any worse.
Clearly, the selection process was rushed and they made a mistake. At the time, they failed to realise that they had lost the election and therefore the public’s support. Nelson isn’t a bad job as such but he is not doing what the public wants either. Not since the old digger Billy Hughes was given the job of leading the UAP in the 40’s has the conservative side looked so badly a drift.
211 Dyno, another interesting version in the Brisbane times.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/family-benefits-look-safe-from-razor/2008/02/22/1203467427964.html
Generic Person I suggest you read this article by Phillip Coorey re the debacle in parliament. He is spot on. Any fair minded person would agree with him instead of trying to justify those childish antics by the opposition.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bcommentb/2008/02/22/1203467388859.html
217 Nice thought Gary, but Glen, before he morphed into GP assured me that he doesn’t read links. I think you will have to copy the main part out for him.
steve @ 216,
An interesting point in that article is this.
skip
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/family-benefits-look-safe-from-razor/2008/02/22/1203467427964.html
I think the attack focus on Swan will backfire and that they underestimate him at their peril. Still, that seems to have been their whole approach to Labor for the past 18 months or so, so at least they are consistent.
Boy, this site has been quiet since late last night.
Where has everyone gone?
Steve, thanks for the advice. I must admit I wasn’t aware GP was Glen but now that I think about it, it makes sense. Now I know I’m wasting my time with GP. Glen by any other name is still Glen, if you know what I mean.
There was a huge delay in getting the site to load last night and it was best avoided.
Just a bit of speculation on why Glen and his alteregos don’t read links but respond with a guess about what was in the link from another poster.
Is it because ‘links’ means ‘left’ in German and he steadfastly refuses to have anything to do with the left?
I thought it may have been because reading is a real chore for him. Just joking Glen/GP
223 Funny thing was I tried out his theory by posting a couple of things that had nothing to do with what was being discussed and sure enough a confident guess arrived about the link each time obviously without it being read.
Thet’s a relief.
I thought my computer was suffering from arthritis or had picked up a virus or something.
In today’s Murdoch rag Hockey is quoted as saying that the disruptions will continue every Friday until the opposition gets its way.
Perhaps, Rudd should amend the standing order that limits TV coverage to question time and require the ABC to transmit all of the Friday sitting so that all the opposition’s thuggery is displayed for our viewing displeasure.
It looks like Dolly Downer is taking a “gap year” break prior to attempting to make it in the real world.
http://news.smh.com.au/downer-under-fire-over-golf-game/20080222-1u2m.html
Not half as angry as his constituents should be. Theirs was a totally wasted vote, but it wasn’t as if they weren’t warned beforehand.
226 [In today’s Murdoch rag Hockey is quoted as saying that the disruptions will continue every Friday until the opposition gets its way.]
some one needs to tell Hockey that in opposition by definition they do not have the numbers to ‘get it’s way’. He really should have thought what opposition means before the last election. It is astounding that people could say such silly things after years of experience as a Minister. You would at least expect them to have some idea of how the system works.
Scorpio @ 227 – I can tell you that quite a few of Dolly’s constituents are more than a little peeved that he is going to force them to an expensive bye election. The local paper had about 6 letters on the subject this week.
What has really gotten up everyones’ nose is his admission that he knew the Coalition were gone months before the election. Most believe that if he was wasn’t prepared to serve in opposition he should therefore have retired before the election.
Just how “modest” is this bloke.
Helps I suppose, to fill up more “Murdoch Rag” empty space.
Greetings all –
can’t belive the idiocy of the Oppositon. Pathetic.
Hope the next poll shows Nelson on 2%: suppose his Mum and wife will give hime a tick.
Off the track , but for those who may be interested the Apology rally in Wangaratta had about 500 show up (not bad for a Thursday afternoon in Wangaratta) ,and Sophie looks stupider than ever.
The highlight was Faye Lienham coming (the woman who’s story Idiot Nelson misused he during the national apology), and she said later that our effort to apologise made up for the hurt she had felt after his misuse of her terrible story of abuse that was the reality of her “well-intentioned removal”.
Ther have been calls for Sophie’s sacking, and there has been quite a backlash here in JWH’s srongest electorate.
Yesterday’s carry-on just further eveidence of their ingnomious and completely deserved fall from power.
Mr Bruce, I am not Glen and never have been.
It would be fairly obvious for William Bowe to discover the truth anyway – given that had we been the same person, we’d be posting from the same IP address.
This is a democracy, Jen, or don’t the Greens believe in democracy. You know, where the majority vote-winner is elected?
GP-
the rally had nothing to do with the Green’s. And that is a stupid question re Democracy.
The ‘majority vote-winner’ did not represent her electorate and has displeased many of her own constitiuents. There were liberal voters at the Rally, GP.
Clearly she did since the majority elected her. The people present at your rally are in the minority. Such is democracy.
GP-
the Australian electorate has been polled to show that 70% supported the Apology.
Let’s assume that given that Sophie got relected (with a 9% swing against her) that Indi has a less compassionate population than the rest of the nation- even though the motion was unanimously passed -ie: the libs supported it as representatives of their constituents. So Sophie decides to be a maverick. She did not represent tens of thousands of people from an electorate of 90,000 in a very significant moment in our political history. And people are pissed off about it.
And I imagine so are the leadership of her own party. JWH is not at the helm anymore she and Tuckey made them look even worse, if that’s possible .
And just in case you missed the point:
lots of liberal voters who voted for Mrs Mirrabella are upset that she didn’t represent them either. Yes, they voted for her- but they didn’t know she was going to do that.
A furphy Jen. For the entire 11 1/2 years of the Howard Government, the Liberal Party was opposed to the apology.
MayoFeral Says: @ 229,
I think it is more likely that Dolly was in the same state of dis-belief as most of his colleagues.
ie, Could clearly see with his own eyes what the polls were saying but couldn’t bring himself to accept that the Australian electorate were actually prepared to throw them out.
Abbott, Howard and others clearly said that the electorate was “sleepwalking”, “having a little joke but would come to their senses” etc
they were all in a dream state and were the ones sleepwalking……to defeat.
Hi Jen
What is your take on the interim Garnaut report???
Mine is it was a bit short on detail and somewhat askew.
No GP-
Howard was opposed to the apology.
s soon as he wsa gone the rest of the members (except Sophie and Tuckey) supported it. So who’s the minority.
??
scaper-
terrifying comes to mind.
Scorpio @ 239 – Soon after the election, from memory the 7.30 Report a week or two later, and again on the 4 Corners program, Dolly said he knew the Howard government was gone. Now he may be indulging in a bit of revisionism, but even so, he must have known that it was at least a slightly better than even money chance he’d be in opposition and chose to stand for reelection anyway.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love nothing better than to see him crawl into the woodwork never to be heard from again, though I’d prefer it to be the Dutch wood of the ICC prison, but even so, I’m not happy we’re going to have to fork out on a by-election because Dolly doesn’t like the tedium of opposition. He wasn’t elected to be one of the king d*cks, but to represent the voters of Mayo and he’s no less capable of doing it today as he was 3 months ago.
Jen
What gets me is the lack of mention to water and sustainability, which my colleagues and myself stressed when we made our individual submissions.
Decentralisation is the key and thus far it is ignored.
I’ve been invited to fill in an application for the 2020 summit from the highest office…maybe that would be the best forum to get a consensus on the new direction that is needed to ensure the security of future generations.
Or do you think that following through with the dialogue that we have established with certain state governments?
Got to make an informed decision to avert duplication.
244 Mayo -haven’t they suffered enough?
Sometimes it is worth bearing the cost to see life improve, and to see Downer go would be a joyous moment.
(Although with him, Howard, Cossie, etc all departing the scene my daily tirade at the TV and radio is diminishing which may have long term detrimental health consequences.) Guess I should be grateful I’ve still got Sophie to cause apoplexy most days.
Scaper,
Have you read this post by Kina at Oz Election Forums?
It shows just how much work needs to be done by Rudd & Co to undo the damage and lack of action for the past 11 years.
http://www.ozelection2007.info/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=42616#p42616
I don’t know, but I get the feeling that Greg Hunt may be next successful Liberal leader, only after The Locum, Mezmeralda and Turnbull have had their turns.
248 Locum – love it!
The Doctor, ive had the same feeling that Greg Hunt could be our ‘Kevin Rudd’ someday…
250 Glen – By the time the Libsa are again in with a chance Hunt will be as ols as Johhny!
Who is Greg Hunt?
If he is the heir apparent he’d better get a better public profile.
Mayo Feral @ 229
Just out of interest which local paper is that? Mayo is a pretty Big electorate.
247 Scorpio
To progress as a nation, it is best to not be sour about the past, but to learn and concentrate on the future.
There has to be a separate entity to bring about a formation of a road to the future without political interference, but with senatorial over-sight.
As Tim implies in his Garnaut thread…democracy is the hurdle.
lol… talk about projection!….
anyway…congratulations on only doing the “i” thing 5 times
255
Try the “we” thingy…
and what army… (btw, that last bit “…” isn’t morse)
Mr mack
Oh my…do I have a cyber-stalker…tell me more…pray tell.
ha…m8
you remember that image dont you?
scaper -
trust me, it ain’t fun.
So GP, do you also deny categorically that you are Edward St John?
apres -
denial is GP’s middle name.
After all he is still defending the indefensible on this site.
hope they are paying him well.
apres Says:
C’mom.. as if!
If you need anymore proof, check out the writing styles!
It’s like comparing scaper against somebody with connections!
M8…in bundara land???…cool!
classified -
not sure what is going on with you and scaper, but either come out with it or back off. We have a code of conduct here, and if you are going to make snide implcations rather than say what you mean then I will be pissed off.
179
Harry ‘Snapper’ Organs
It was a Russian scientist living in England who stated:
Politics is the art of the possiblel
Science is the art of the soluble
Name of Medvedev
close scaper…
Got you picked…I tip my hat.
… is not morse!
Classified, haven’t you ever heard or read that Martin Luther King speech?
We’re all entitled to have one.
Naughty boy.
Re. #205, Gusface…
The Milennium Bug was real. It may not have taken $400 billion to fix it. But it was real and bad things would have happened had it not been fixed and checked. Every line of code that ran our banks and our defence establishments had to be gone over.
Criticising the Y2K counter measures is like criticising a surgeon who saves a heart patient’s life. “Sheesh, you said he could have had a heart attack, but look: he’s up and walking already! He doesn’t look sick to me.”
Well, he was, until he was fixed by the surgeon. Ditto with Y2K. Until it was fixed.
Srry people, this is a personal thing underway here… it shouldn’t happen but alas sometimes it does…the nature of blogs
no worries cos it will end soon… Admins always invoke the right!…in the end…to end
“trembles”
Thanks, Thomarse re: the source of the quote. It’s always struck me as most apt.
William, we have a sicko here…he is Tom of Melbourne…no morse to that champ!!!
250 Glen
Why cause he is on sunrise? Shame he hardley gets a word in and when he does it dosnt come over well from the clip a saw the other day.
Shame that Joe Hockey wasnt a women who is as hot as Tanya Plibersek. Maybe if he was Kevin would no have become Prime minister
Umm, I know I’m easily confused by the more arcane aspects of psephology, but WTF is going on between Scaper and Classified? Is this an example of extreme population attribute? Is it something like NAIRU? Is it provable? Re-peatable in a lab?
classified -
it’s not about causing you to tremble.
it’s about Respect, as Aretha would say.
278
This person has followed me over several blogs and has slandered me and posted under my name here just before Xmas.
I come here to look at the figures and crunch them.
This place is the basis of my understanding…sorry to be put you through this here…hey Tommy???
jen…
anytime you want… re = review snide implications…
your friend scaper….. well…I could tell stories!
apart from that… perhaps growing up might help?
over 2 u (sing out if u need help!)
Let’s hear these stories, bud…easier to understand your motives.
I’m off to see ‘Keating, the Musical’, but would be interested in others’ thoughts about how the climate change debate can be steered. I’m in the sometimes terrified camp, being aware of Easter Island referred to by Diogenes, and of a similar sceptic bent given my regular exposure to a large number of people who behave self destructively. There’s also quite substantial evidence that the Mayan civilisation declined due to them eating themselves out of house and home, and this was a quite sophisticated civilisation. Having got myself quite down considering the folly of human kind, then my technophile side kicks in. Did anyone else see the report in today’s “Age” on the amazing chip developed by a Melbourne based scientist? It’s revolutionary. Really.
BB
i respectful disagree
Y2k
was trumpeted as end of civilisation
was really chance for consultants/it companies to make a motza
seems there may be a pattern there !!
classifieds -
you’re moderated.
thank god….. no… wait!…damn(caught me)~!
silly little girl… yes I’m here
I’m just waiting for for you to say something useful!
are you
ESJ/Generic Person/ Glen/Tabitha/ Janette Howard/ George Bush?
or just a PainITA.
283 Harry- there are lots of theories of why the Mayans snuffed it. Foreign invasion, disease, peasant revolt etc. One of the most popular is a famine, as you suggest, brought on by too little food for too many people. The famine was putatively exacerbated by a multi-year drought.
alas it’s true
As I always say to the small children when I do the “Santa”…I
‘m fat…but rich… who cares what santa brings when your rich!
Oh how delightful – a fake madman!
And I think you meant “you’re rich” … education is important as well as wealth and put-on weird chic surely.
(Tell that to “the children”.)
Sorry William. I’ll be good from now on … I promise.
classified-
please don’t tell me that you get to be Santa.
No Jen, he is not up to the speed of any of those guys.
It is time that the legal team extract the origin of this person…a brave move by the Tom!!!
You do that, in fact I will send you my email//name/address …{no need to do same}
So…Tony… lets dance…
jen can tap you on the shoulder whenever she is brave enough… assuming she can live with full disclosure
btw jen
for your records
I’m 3rd from the right
http://www.farecompare.com/editorial/content/rickseaney/santas-galore.jpg
hey dude this is getting kind of weird
are you a stalking santa or someit
lol
Meanwhile in WA, another rat is jumping the sinking vessel that is the SS Boozewell
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/23/2170621.htm
299 Frank, it seems the Libs are disintegrating all over the country.
Now we have Gridlock Campbell crying crocodile tears over his economic record being questioned. I think this is the weakspot that will hurt him most and he is reacting accordingly. The Libs in my local area the week before last letterboxed the local area with a Lindsay electorate type unsigned smear sheet, so it is hard to have much sympathy for their claims of smears against them.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/newman-to-pm-halt-labor-smears/2008/02/23/1203467453101.html
steve @ 216,
Yes, Swan has a good track record at surviving.
My experience in business has been that people who get to the top without any spectularly obvious talent normally have some important attribute in abundance: tenacity, cunning, whatever.
Without entering into the debate about which attribute applies, look at JWH. Not too many people would have picked the 30yo John Howard as a political star compared to {insert any one of many names here}, but he became the 2nd longest-serving PM.
So too early to write off Wayne.
And he’s right too that the budget will be the first real test.
Frank 299 and steve 300,
They’re recognising some of their own internal contradictions.
Not necessarily a bad thing in the long run, but there’s a lot of pain yet to come before things start getting better.
Dyno there’s a couple of good tests coming up for the Libs in Queensland in the next few weeks. Firstly it will be interesting to see how the Liberals most senior man in government survives his economic record in the Brisbane City Council election.
Secondly, the Libs are running an official ‘A’ and an unofficial ‘B’ team in the Gold Coast city Council election. Labor is not running a team there but the current mayor Ron Clarke may well hold his job against the Liberal teams.
What date are the Council elections?
305 March 15 Dyno.
Cheers steve – one to watch out for, for us down south
Brisbane City Council was exempt from amalgamation and the Gold Coast had only minor changes. The Sunshine Coast has three councils (Noosa, Maroochy and Caloundra) blending into one super council. Most of the smaller far Western Councils were not amalgamated.
I believe it is first past the post voting for mayor of undivided councils and optional preferential voting for Mayor if the council is divided into divisions.
Scotty @ 253 – I was referring to The Courier, printed in Mt Barker. Available throughtout the Hills and in a surprising number of Adelaide suburban news agencies.
I agree with Dyno, you can never pick who will be successful, I have seen people in one company be totally pigeon holed, go to another company and be a complete star.
I bad Swan, but that’s more because I really like Tanner, but as long as Swan maintains a healthy Budget without succumbing to over taxing or over regulation then he should go okay.
I recall many ALP supporters dismissed Kevin Rudd as a leader for he was too nerdy.
yes Mr PM with 70%
Cheers for that info mayo.
I really hope downer does go soon and a by election is called.
Give Downer the Kennett treatment! (Burwood 99 ah memories
)
Here is a list of Queensland Councils showing which have been amalgamated to some degree and those left as before.
http://www.strongercouncils.qld.gov.au/Portals/0/PDFs/Complete%20list%20of%20councils%20as%20at%2015%20March%202008.pdf
I can report that ‘Keating, the musical’ was terrific. Great production, packed to the rafters. Got talking to young woman in the loo queue, who couldn’t figure out why JWH lasted so long and 80 year woman, while waiting for our respective chauffeurs, who knew exactly why. Jeez, I hope Mr. Benetto writes ‘Howard, the requiem’.
The only thing most ratepayers see from a Council is their rubbish removed and an increasing annual rate bill. The rest of their work is largely unknown except childcare.
I there an argument for Amalgamations as down South they have lead to increased rates
yes Harry, saw ‘Keating’ …brilliant
314 Ron we must be doubly blessed in Brisbane, under Gridlock Campbell we have rate rises above the inflation rate he promised to peg them to in a council that was amalgamated donkeys years ago.
Some Mayors are just brilliant at being ‘good economic managers’ apparently. I think they could extract money from an ATM without a card, with their eyes closed and while whistling ‘Happy Days are here again’.
You don’t happen to want to buy a tunnel by any chance do you Ron? I know just the boy…
no Steve , we got our excess ones in storage
The poisoned dwarf just doesn’t get it. Noone gives a damn about Brian Burke. Rudd’s answered all questions on this in parliament and released the e-mails. For heaven sake move on Glen. Everyone else has.
Ron @ #314 shows the difference between a city voter and one from the bush. City voters in local govt elections think of rubbish removals etc. In the bush it is all about roads and culverts. It is not unknown to deliberately vote for the candidate who lives “further out” in order to get the road graded etc more frequently and more effectively.
Milne… has he been on the sauce again?
What to do about him and his obsessions?
Consider this piece of brilliant fact-digging from the Poison Dwarf:
“Everybody… knew.”
Forced to say in early in his column that Rudd’s behavior was all above board (what else could it be… having lunch is not yet a crime, neither is being invited to lunch), Milne sinks to a new low by implying that we should just ignore the facts… “Everybody… knew”.
Journalism has reached something of a nadir with Milne. When all else fails just write “everybody… knew” anyway.
Interestingly this supposedly “factual” story is included in the Telegraph’s “Opinion” pages.
Only because they don’t have a “Fantasy” column.
MESSAGE for bloger “Classified” :
Reading todays Blogs ,
Scaper accused you of ’stalking’ him from other blogs.
Then there was personal exchanges between the 2 of you…no big deal
But then you overstepped the mark by implying personal info about Scaper here.
This is over the line. Blogers here are entitled to their privacy if THEY wish.
But when Jen tried to get you to cut the whole personal thing off ,
you got stuck into our good friend Jen.
IF everyone ignores a particular Bloger , he has failed & cann’t do anything about it. But we will all know that Bloger is frustrated without any recourse !!!!!
Should you repeat an attempt to divulge a Blogers personal privacy or personally attack Jen , it just may be coincidence that no one ever again acknowledges your existence here. Life is full of choices.
Whatever it is that’s going on between Classified, Scaper and others, can we please have no more of it on the site. I personally have no idea what this is about. Send me an email if there’s anything about this you’d like to discuss.
“Gary Bruce Says: 318″
I still remember when the ’story’ first broke last year, the Murdoch press were going to town predicting it was the end of Rudd in triumphant tones. Then bewilderment as the polls came out.
They simply don’t get it – this type of journalism doesn’t cut it anymore. No body was interested back then when it was all new and fresh and even less so now.
The very disturbing thing for me is the total lack of indignation by the media over Liberals trashing and degrading of Parliament – a very serious thing that should be beyond partisan politics. It just shows how much damage Howard has done to the thinking and attitude of the media – partisan politics comes before health and respect for democracy and parliament. They should have been castigating Nelson and co in no uncertain terms.
Missed all the fun, was overseas at a conference, but saw the reportage on the absolutely disgraceful behaviour in Parliament by the ‘born to rule’ morons. They have really hoisted their colours for all to see, and prove just how right we were to kick them out.
On a separate note, NSW seems to be proving the adage that oppositions don’t win elections, governments lose them. The high level of odour emanating from the Iemma crowd is absolutely disgraceful. Not that I think the Libs have any credible alternatives, but they will win by default.
Too right BF. The right wing of the NSW Labor has had it sweet for so long that its got a “toothache” so to speak. May a challenge for the leadership may be in the offering or will the decay set in?
325 Kina – Couldn’t agree more. The antics of the opposition inparliament was a disgrace and we had some journalists, like Laurie Oakes almost justifying it. Shameful. Pyne gets on “Press the Meat” this morning and blames the speaker and acting speaker for THEIR own bad behaviour. Amazing stuff.
325, 326, 328
Agree with you about Opposition behaviour being a disgrace.
However the rules for Friday sittings are a joke (Division-free day etc) and the Government really ought to re-consider them.
William,
It was looking like you might have to join the “Referees Association”, yesterday.
One good thing though, most of your regular bloggers know how to look after themselves and their colleagues fairly well.
There has been a bit of niggle and agro recently though.
A bit reflective of recent going-ons in the National House. It’s a bit tough suddenly being on the other side as a number of people are finding out.
Let’s hope all settle down to friendly banter and informative discussion again.
This is the best political, blog site on the net in Australia and we ALL should determine to keep it that way.
Just my thoughts for the day. Have a good one everyone.
Cheers, Scorpio.
328 Gary the Laws of contempt of Parliament are as stringent as the Contempt of court laws. Maybe the Speaker apart from reading them the riot act needs to set a few examples to allow them to learn that parliament is just not the place for rabble rousing and bad behaviour.
If Hockeys comments yesterday about continuing to riot till he gets his way is not a contempt of Parliament then it is very close.
332 Seems there is nothing that can be done to stop the bad behaviour. Looks like the Liberals have might, right and the law on their side. We had better just get used to contempt for parliament becoming the norm.
“Shortly before the 1987 Act was passed, the House of Representatives had in fact punished one of its members for criticism, made outside the House, of the Speaker (HR Debates, 24 February 1987, pp 580-7). It appears that it is no longer possible to deal with such conduct, however gross the defamation.”
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/pubs/odgers/chap0232.htm
It looks like the opposition don’t want their dirty washing aired in public…wonder why?
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23267172-29277,00.html
Bring on the by-elections.
That way there will be even fewer of those morons on that side of the house and it will be easier to ignore them.
As well as sending them another message (they didn’t seem to get it the first time), that We, the Australian people, don’t want them around anymore.
I’m struggling to understand why a day in parliament dedicated to the backbenchers speaking and bringing up issues important to them and their constituents is a bad thing. The only thing that makes the parliament unworkable on Friday is not the lack of divisions etc, it’s the lack of cooperation and a determination on the part of the oposition to make the parliament a rabble. If there was goodwill on both sides to make this work for the purposes as stated by the government, it would work.
GB,
If you’re interested, refer my post at 153 – I probably don’t need to reiterate it in full.
Backbenchers had their own time anyway under the old rules, but it wasn’t on a day when votes were banned (in Parliament of all places!) and Ministers had signalled their intention not to even be in the same city.
I think the Friday rules are very sub-optimal, they further instutionalise Ministerial contempt for Parliament in my view.
I also have no doubt Rudd’s motives for this are dubious – the change gives him a day to big-note himself all over the country, whilst the plebs are stuck in Parliament.
And the Speaker did a poor job earlier in the week of reining in Gillard’s use of props.
Which makes the Liberals even bigger dummies for what they did on Friday, their reasonable points have been totally obscured by their own bizarre behaviour.
Dyno, 337, bizarre is not the term I would choose, deluded, grandiose, arrogant certainly spring to mind! They really haven’t yet woken up, it was not a bad dream, they have indeed lost power. We are used to such childish moronic behaviour in the Queensland Parliament, please not in the Federal House.
335 Jen, yes indeed, a cold shower of a few by-elections is the prescribed therapy, or better still, a double dissolution!
BF @338,
No problem with your terminology. I think I called their antics disgraceful earlier in this thread.
Shame their behaviour obscured the points they should have been trying to make.
Keelty has Opposition’s full support:
Mr Pyne said AFP commissioner Mick Keelty had his full support, although he felt Mr Keelty had “overstepped the mark” in a recent speech in which he called for media reporting of terrorism cases to be curtailed.
“Other than that, Mick Keelty’s done a fantastic job as the head of the AFP and he has the Opposition’s complete support,” he said.
Jeez that should make Mick nervous!
Dyno@337
The Backbenchers may have had their own time under the old rules, but now that time Mon-Thurs is available for Government business.
Votes on Parliament-lite days are not banned, simply deferred. This can be workable simply because a day dedicated to the introduction of private members bills would not need any divisions in the normal course of business.
I fail to see how a Minister can hear a backbencher any better sitting in an office or in another city.
Actually Rudd has the same opportunity to “big note himself” around the country as the last PM had. The only difference is that backbenchers now also have an opportunity to “big note themselves” in Parliament. No-one is “stuck” in Parliament: attendance is not compulsory and the deferred vote enables this.
My nominations for the Friday Dream Team:
Fully laid back on the beach: Steve Ciobo
Waiting on the right wing: Abbott
Waiting on the left wing: Nairu Turnbull
Look at me centre: Fluffy Bishop
Child care centre: Uncle Joe Hockey
Offensive five eighth: Luke Hartsuyker
Half: Nelson
Loose head prop: WorkChoices
Tight head prop: Kevin Rudd
Muckraker: Christopher Pyne
Second class rowers: Downer and Costello
Binding the pack: no one
On the bench: Bishop (B), Robb, Hunt, Dutton
Left right out: JWH
337 Dyno – but the opposition front bench doesn’t have to be there either. They too can “swan around” big noting themselves. I still make the point that if the opposition cooperates in an orderly manner and exercises self control this will work well. What you believe are Rudd’s motives are neither here nor there.
I notice Bolt has an answer for everything Rudd does now, “It’s a stunt!” Where was Bolt last term when Howard was producing one stunt after another to get re-elected?
Ron, I’m happy to see the cooalition behave in that manner every Friday sitting up to the next election. It’s a shocking look for them. Fancy electing a bunch of rabble like that to government.
Yes Gary, too true, perhaps we can encourage them to behave like the elected ones in Taiwan or Russia, fisticuffs, nay full-blown brawling in the House. Should see them in opposition for at least two centuries. Good idea!
Musrum @ 342,
I stress again that I am not defending the Opposition’s behaviour on Friday.
However your own description for Fridays (”Parliament-lite”) says it all in my view.
GB @ 344,
What I believe are Rudd’s motives is “neither here nor there” – this is fair enough, but the same comment could be applied to practically everything that is posted on this site!
I am sure that Labor’s PR machine is carefully filing away the video footage of the clowns ready for the next campaign, my god these were the people who sold themselves as experienced leaders. Joe Hockey really should have used some head protection in the scrums, one too many knocks I fear.
346
Gary Bruce
There’s now a new button on TV remote controls, it’s called the “Bolter”, and when switched on, it automatically mutes Andrew Bolt, allowing the viewer to actually hear what other commentators on Insiders are actually saying.
Since he’s only ever saying the same thing ie everything is a stunt, including, but not exclusively: climate change, anything said by the government, anything said by other guests on Insiders, it’s no longer necessary to hear anything he says and is easily filtered without losing anything of worth.
(Just think of the wonderful home videos his children and grandchildren will have! Oh look, there’s granddad way back in the naughties, when everyone had realised, finally, how bad greenhouses were, denying its existence. God, what a prat he was, eh? yeah, it’s been 49 degrees for how many days this month. Warm for this time of year in Tasmania, eh?)
350 Dyno – I only meant in regard to this issue as to whether the parliament should operate like this or not. No offence meant.
KR – I must find and use that button. I’ve given up reading anything Bolt writes – he’s a lost cause I’m afraid.
Has anyone read a headline such as “Opposition – ME TOO”. Where are the howls against this me-tooism on the part of the Libs? Is it ok for them but wrong for Labor? Maybe it is just an acknowlegement that the opposition stands for nothing and doesn’t deserve the paper space.
Spot the contradiction.
“A JUDICIAL inquiry into the Mohamed Haneef affair would be an overreaction, and a closed-door probe would be preferable, the Federal Coalition says.”
“Mr Pyne ……. felt Mr Keelty had “overstepped the mark” in a recent speech in which he called for media reporting of terrorism cases to be curtailed.”
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23267172-29277,00.html
GB @ 353,
No worries and no offence taken – cheers.
Howard had plans to pull troops from Iraq: Robb
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/24/2170922.htm
I think Robb is probably speaking the truth. To lie about what’s been discussed with the US is playing with fire. It’s just another example of Howard’s arrogance and stubborn pride that he could not be seen to support Labour’s position on troop withdrawals.
Steve 357
What fascinates me about that article is that while Howard seems to have thought withdrawel was a good idea, he believed that the discourse of ’staying the course’ was the more popular line. Either he was out of touch or Australia changed very quickly!
I think the fact that he wasn’t going to stay as PM for the whole term had more of an effect on the election result.
343#ViggoP
Who plays ‘Hooker’
If I understand correctly the Friday sitting is so MP’s can talk about something in their seat or raise an issue that is off importants to their community and the MP’s are not required to attend then what is the problem.
Are the Liberals going to take an I.R policy to the next election that says if the Boss is not in the building work stops for that appears to be their arguement.
359
Don’t disagree. I don’t think Iraq was a big issue in the election for anyone outside of people already voting for Rudd (or the greens).
But i do find it interesting that while Howard decided to push ’staying the course’, he was privately thinking of withdrawal. I’m interested as to whether it was Rudds pushing of withdrawal or the attachment of the Liberal support base, to the ’staying the course’ discourse that made him stay with that policy instead of moving towards a withdrawal.
Perhaps it more highlights that Howard no longer controlled the agenda once Rudd came into power.
359 Generic Person – I agree. I think had Howard promised to stay on the result for the Libs could have been far worse.
359 Yes the annihilation would really have been a self fulfilling prophecy with that scenario.
Dyno @ 337 – My understanding is that the Friday half day sitting was bought in to move members business out from the normal sitting days to allow more time to consider legislation, etc.
As I understand it during the time allocated for this previously very few members attended the chamber other than those who wished to speak. So the fact that ministers aren’t there on Fridays is no different that what happened before.
As members’ business does not normally require votes to be taken, that also seems a non issue to me.
I also believe the “plebs” don’t have to be “stuck in Parliament”. Attendance is no more compulsory than it was before. The opposition have chosen to make it so (Downer and McGuaran excepted apparently) to create an Everest out of the molehill for party political purposes, but that’s their problem, no one elses.
No MB @ 360,
The argument is that Parliament is there to pass legislation and keep the Executive accountable. Neither of these things can happen on a day when Divisions are not permitted (or are compulsorily deferred, it’s a semantic distinction), and the Executive – en masse – doesn’t turn up.
Rudd is not the boss of Parliament, it’s supposed to be the other way round – the people’s representatives are supposed to be able to hold the Executive accountable.
It’s all a bit academic in the current Parliament when Labor has the numbers locked up in the House. But these rules form a bad precedent.
MF @ 364,
Perhaps you can set me straight on this (as I previously invited people to do, but no-one did).
You say that, in effect, nothing has changed. But am I not right in thinking that it is a new thing to have a day when Divisions (what you and I would call “votes”) are not allowed?
MB @60
Hooker = rake = Pyne
I believe it’s against the act governing Parliamentry Coverage that such footage is prohibited to be uesed for political advertising – hence the use of Keith Scott to revoice Howard’s words for one of the ALP ads.
I predict said voiceover artistes will be given transcripts to read
Dyno @ 363 – Is it a new thing to have a day when votes aren’t allowed? Probably yes.
But how many votes have ever been taken in the house during members’ business? I doubt one. Whenever I’ve seen footage of it they’ve been 2 or 3 members present plus a Deputy Speaker with only the member speaking fully awake.
It’s the time when members can raise matters of concern to their constituants, or have a whinge on a personal issue or regail the house about some event that has/will occur in their electorate. Mostly, they are just getting local stuff into Hansard to prove they’re hard at work for their electorate. What is there to vote on?
363 Dyno, here’s an interesting bit of light reading. You will find in the senate provision has always been made for divisions on the next sitting day.
“A division cannot be held after 6 pm on Thursdays (SO 57(3)). If a division is called for at that time the matter concerned is adjourned to the next day of sitting at a time fixed by the Senate (11/9/2003, J.2360; 15/9/2003, J.2365-7). (See Supplement)”
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/pubs/odgers/chap1105.htm
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/pubs/PRACTICE/chapter14.htm#pow
In the supplement to that senate article there is this:
“paragraph 5, end
; 13/10/2005, J.1293-4; 3/11/2005, J.1302). A temporary order first passed in 2004 altered this time to 4.30 p.m. (11/5/2004, J.3379; 10/8/2006, J.2450; 17/8/2006, J.2537; 4/9/2006, J.2557). Standing order 57(2) provides for divisions called between 12.45 pm and 2 pm on Wednesdays also to be deferred, but until later on the same day. When a deferred division is called on, the practice is to put the question again, on the basis that senators who originally called the division may change their minds and allow the question to be determined on the voices.”
Obviously these sort of provisions are not new as the Liberals would have us believe.
And what are we to make of this?
“If the Selection Committee has determined that consideration of an item of private Members’ business should continue on a future day, at the time set for interruption of the item of business or if debate concludes earlier, the Speaker interrupts proceedings and the matter is listed on the Notice Paper for the next sitting.374 The Chair will also do this even if the time available has not expired but where there are no other Members wishing to speak.375″
I would assume that it is so members can attend the National Press club functions.
It would be funny if the Liberals are cutting off their nose to spite their face!
Why I assume that divisions aren’t called on Wednesday between 12.45pm and 2.00pm. Surely this identical to the situation existing on Fridays.
http://www.npc.org.au/upcomingSpeakers.html
Jen@250;
Greg Hunt is the current Shadow Min. for the Environment.
I think the first tier Liberals will not be successful, if only because of the WorkChoices shadow – which means looking at the 2nd tier group.
However, with Labor seeming to manage reasonably successful succession planning these days it is quite possible that the next non-Labor Prime Minister is not in Parliament.
372 The Doctor-
thanks for that.
think he might have a way to go yet before he gets to be party leader then!
That is ,of course, if there is any party left to lead.
362 [But these rules form a bad precedent.]
So there we have it Dyno, it is not a precedent or a bad rule. Just a bunch of spoilt brat Tories behaving badly. Funny that both Nelson and Turnbull are listed to appear shortly at the National Press Club. Are they going to turn down the offer in fear of a division being called in their absence? Of course such a thing is too stupid to contemplate. So is their behaviour on Fridays and their ludicrous justification of their behaviour.
“it is quite possible that the next non-Labor Prime Minister is not in Parliament.”
I would suggest that the next non-labor PM is not even a glint is his/her parents’ eyes yet.
Apparently the Brisbane Lord Mayor’s popularity is rising. At least six people have complained to him since Christmas.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/bligh-rejects-mayors-allegation-of-smears/2008/02/24/1203788132315.html
jen @ 375 – A good argument for making birth control compulsory, eh?
375
Jen
Or as we used to say in the grey funnel line;
I had a gleam in my eye in Baghdad before the next non-labor Prime Minister
was a gleam in the eye of his dad’s bag!
How stupid are Fitzgibbon and Smith thinking they can get Congress to change US law to allow them to sell us their number 1 strike fighter the F-22?
…bunch of amateurs really, about what we’d expect from an inexperienced government.
Glen@379,
Find a) A good scare campaign, or
b) Enough money,
and I think you’ll find the US Congress will do anything!
377 MF- That reminds me of the great words Seneca spoke to Nero, “No matter how many men you may slay, you cannot kill your successor.”
Glen is shitscared Smith & Fitzgibbon WILL be able to buy the F22.
The yanks at the Ministerial meeting seemed to think it was a goer.
the Doctor, S&F could always approach Russia to buy their planes!
Give it a rest Glen, the new government is off to a great start!
Glen @ 379 – When Congress gives the “amateurs” what they’re asking for it’ll tell you a lot about what the American’s really felt about Howard and his minions.
Glen @ 379
if our allies will only sell us inferior planes we should with hold metal storm from them and buy the latest russian planes
I don’t actually think the point was to get the planes. I think it was part of the govts ongoing policy of pointing out the flaws of the previous govt….
steve,
Good research, thanks!
Ok, Division-free periods have been done previously in the Senate (not the house where the Govt is formed) and for short periods in the House.
Assuming that is all, this new change still represents a fairly significant expansion of a practice in which the Executive essentially gives Parliament “the finger”.
The Liberals behaved like spoilt brats (and a lot else besides), however based on what I have seen to date I still think the Friday rules are poor and the Libs would have been within their rights to make that point in a civilised manner (which, of course, they didn’t).
Scorpio and Rusty
My brother, Patrick, finally returned from his travels. I saw him this evening. He named you by your real name, Rusty, immediately, when I said, Audrey. Apart from all this discovery, it would be terrific to post on the home builder’s club venture. A lesson for today.
We had no opportunity to discuss it any length, as a death has occurred and he was busied with this.
Pat does not know your in-laws, Scorpio. I will venture into the younger family age group.
Labor’s in charge now. They make the rules. They have expanded Parliament’s sitting days. There is no less QT available than there was before. Yet whingers form the Right still complain.
This kerfuffle is all because the Opposition THINK they have an edge in QT, possibly because they THINK they caught Wayne Swan out in a curly technical question that he declined to answer on Turnbull’s exact terms. Remember: this was Turnbull, who had criticised Swan for offering opinions on inflation asking Swan to…. offer an opinion on inflation. The Coalition want more QT so they can exhibit their fancied superiority over Labor. It’s got nothing to do with democracy. Most of the questions so far have been of the “Trick Question” variety, eliciting little information that’s useful and causing the maximum disruption with their disruptive interjections on “relevance” (the hypocrites, after what they got up to when in government). It is the Opposition which is irrelevant, no the government’s answers.
This will all die down and the Coaliton will learn the hard way that they lost the election and that they are not coming back any election soon, despite Robb’s optimism to this effect on Insiders.
Rudd should stick to his guns. The Opposition can bash their heads (and their electoral prospects) against the brick wall for as long as it takes. They cannot win this one. They do not have then numbers. Parliamentary procedure is whatever the majority decides it is, something Howard taught us very well indeed.
If Nelson and crew keep behaving like that on the Fridays it will only harm themselves. They desperately need credibility and need to be seen as serious professionals. Their ranting and tantrums produces the opposite image, that of a rabble fighting to seem significant.
BB @ 388,
“They are not coming back any election soon”.
So what odds are you offering on next time? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I expect Labor to win next time, but with certainty like that you’d have to be offering at least 10-1, pretty juicy odds in a two-horse race which still has nearly three years to run.
According to Hockey they intend to continue disrupting the Friday proceedings.
They don’t actually want question time on Fridays. They want Rudd to call of Friday sittings so they can all go home.
391
ShowsOn
You’re right of course, they don’t want QT on Friday, so what would be a really good thing to give them?
I know it’s not what Ruddy wanted, but crikey, wouldn’t it be sweet if they got what they asked for?!?!?
Oh, we could laugh!
KR @ 392,
That would be the best thing (the other) KR could do.
Well, I notice The Australian yesterday – in a very long editorial devoted to this matter of parliamentary standards – pointed out that just before he died in 1909, the first Speaker Frederick Holder said he was disturbed by the bitter feelings between opposing MPs. And that apparently before he slumped in his chair saying, dreadful, dreadful, and died. So maybe things aren’t that different?
http://www.australianpolitics.com/news/2001/01-05-06a.shtml
BB @ 388,
Your description of me as a “whinger from the Right” is also intriguing.
I may be a whinger, my family/friends are best placed to comment.
But I hadn’t previously realised that it was particularly right-wing to think that the executive should be readily accountable to Parliament.
Really!
Certain among the Opposition have yet to come to terms.
Dolly and the lunchers and golfers know exactly Opposition means.
Eedjits bearing cardboard effigies as Scorpio suggested, are those from which any self respecting loser would disassociate themselves.
ShowsOn – but the only thing stopping them from going home is themselves and whatever odium they perceive they may attract if they do. They aren’t required to be there by any rule of the House.
Fridays is strictly for ‘private members business’ if they haven’t got anything to get off their chest they can go whereever they want. That’s what happened under the old system when typically the only ones in the chamber was the member rabbitting on and maybe one or two others either waiting their turn or bereft of anything else to do, plus a deputy Speaker and the staff – Hansard recorder, clerk, etc – who are the only one’s actually required to be in attendance.
Yes, MayoFeral, the empty nest syndrome in Parliament has been alive and well for as long as TV has made this apparent.
I have been astonished that a Member can be talking to only a transcript.
Here is a doorstop interview from Anthony Albanese in December last year.
http://www.anthonyalbanese.com.au/file.php?file=/news/RQWQJJPCTILYLEADYGKOLQAQ/index.html
Crikey Whitey,
I can see why Keelty is furiously trying to prop up his well paid position at present!
The younger generation you are asking about are named, Annette, Judy and John.
From what my mother in-law said, some of your younger siblings at least, would have had some contact in travelling to, and/or attending the same school at some stage.
She seems to have a solid memory of what schools you all attended and when.
Cheers, Scorpio.
steve,
Interesting interview, that.
It all underlines the Opposition’s insanity last Friday: to the extent they had a point it was a pretty subtle one.
Plenty of people are going to assume (rightly or wrongly) that the real objection is to “working on Fridays”.
I’m sure most politicians of all stripes work hard (lower House ones, anyway), but the Liberals have monumentally c*cked up any message they may have been trying to get across.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23267538-29277,00.html
Did anyone else see that flock of flying pigs go zipping the super hornets?
This mob must think the Australian electorate have a bad case of collective amnesia!
Hi Scorpio
That is useful, though I did mean the younger in my family. That would be John, Richard known as Dick, Mignon known as Sally, Jerome known to his annoyance as Jerry, Mary, Tim, Damien. Sadly, Dick, Mary and Tim, my younger siblings, have died.
I will explore, though a meet at the pub would be simpler.
As to Keelty, whom I deplore for his demeaning subjugation to Howard and his most recent failure to ‘keep up’ ( I am at risk here of Fulvio’s condemnation on the arrangement of my words) what I reckon is that Mick had it right until the point when he folded to Howard, then as his so recent utterance demonstrates, lives in a past which the election has put behind us.
He seemed to be an okay guy, but forced to shake a hand, anyone who had to do so in the Howard climate must be in need of therapy, at least.
401 Dyno, the sitting dates for the year are here.
http://www.dpmc.gov.au/parliamentary/index.cfm
Found another interesting thing, there is not a word about Friday sittings on the website of the Leader of the House as far as I can see.
http://www.anthonyalbanese.com.au/file.php?file=/info_ctr.html
Incidentally, nor has the Leader of Government Business been asked any questions in parliament about Friday sittings despite the crocodile tears and tantrums we saw from the Opposition on Friday.
Steve at 406
‘nor has the Leader of Government Business been asked any questions in parliament’
At all, really. About anything of any use.
Let’s not be unkind, I think they may be real tears, but I suspect flow from a source other than Fridays. Think Saturday, 24 November 2007.
The issue of Friday Sittings is so important that no mention is made of it on the website of the Leader of Opposition Business either.
http://www.joehockey.com/mediahub/transcripts.aspx
Anyone keeping track of Coalition mee-too backflips?
Dyno, you think the Opposition have Rudd on the ropes. Nothing could be further from reality. He is not in the slightest danger or even particular discomfort. This bloviating about no QT on Fridays is a simply because the Opposition think they have scored a few cheap points on government members in QT in the past couple of weeks. Even if they have they are cheap, and few. There are three long years of irrelevance to go before the public gets another chance to reduce Coalition numbers.
And please, no sermons about “accountability”. Really, after Howard had corrupted the parliament in the way he did with his own version of “accountability”, anything would be an improvement.
If someone comes here and whinges, what are we to think? We only have the evidence in front of us to go on.
The Coalitions Friday effort would have only helped create perceptions or at least solidify them. They played the game like sore losers or spoilt brats on the side-lines and thats the subconscious image that will form in peoples minds. Losers acting like losers.
I note The Australian running a story damaging to the Howard Costello ecnomic myth.
BUSINESS has demanded a three-year freeze in federal spending and attacked the Howard government’s failure to invest the proceeds of the resources boom in the nation’s future productivity.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23269415-601,00.html
Dyno, as to Bushfire Bills at 410.
BB posed the question or rather, made the statement:
‘Dyno, you think the Opposition have Rudd on the ropes’.
What ropes, Dyno? What match, even?
I don’t interest myself in or even understand boxing, but I would presume that the person who carries 70% of the weight is more likely to win over an opponent weighing 9%.
And, despite the rowdy crowd supporting the light weight, all the cheers will not
succeed in a win.
The lighter weight needs to build up, get smarter, stronger.
It takes time. Determination. Tactics. Nouse.
Even then, he has to maintain his position against those who are fighting for his place in the ring.
A particularly difficult position to be in. Defending on all fronts.
Now and for the forseeable future, there is no match.
Just a lot of rabble rousers, half heartedly barracking for the the light weight.
But mostly, barracking for themselves. Not that they are in the ring.
Kina, it is interesting to read of the business community releasing itself from the self imposed bondage of the Howard years.
Shocking, to me, that they were so informed, yet so self interested.
Locked themselves in. Forgot community interest. Forgot to tell the then PM so.
Heather Rideout was not a person I held any brief for, yet she gained my respect in her refusal to engage in the invitation to buy into Howard’s bush bash against workers.
And Ms Rideout clearly took pleasure in saying, I told you so.
Want something to choke on?
“But other senior Liberals said Mr Howard was blind when it came to WorkChoices, and in the last few months of government would “erupt” if anyone tried to suggest there was still a problem.
Mr Andrews said some members of cabinet were more determined to push as far as possible on WorkChoices than others.
“(Senator Nick) Minchin wanted to go further . . . (Peter) Costello wanted to go further, (Tony) Abbott didn’t want to go further,” Mr Andrews said. ”
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23270048-662,00.html
Yep, Kina, as I say.
Same goes, for all of Howard’s gutless.
And it far too late, for Kevin Andrews and his ilk. Including the non Ministerial, certain of the business community, others such as Keelty.
Dare I say that the GG and Samuels, to name only two, seem to be wholeheartedly embracing a new freedom to actually exercise their responsibilities.
Bushfire Bill and Crikey Whitey,
Never did I say that “the Opposition have Rudd on the ropes”, nor anything remotely resembling it. In fact, I have no idea what comment of mine the two of you are even talking about!
More than happy to discuss comments I did make.
(And for the record, I agree with the obvious point everyone else is making – the Opposition made right idiots of themselves last Friday).
Labor goes for solar panel rebate in Brisbane City Council bunfight.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/sun-shines-on-labor-campaign/2008/02/25/1203788192298.html
[I note The Australian running a story damaging to the Howard Costello ecnomic myth.
BUSINESS has demanded a three-year freeze in federal spending and attacked the Howard government’s failure to invest the proceeds of the resources boom in the nation’s future productivity.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23269415-601,00.html
So why didn’t the B.C.A. criticise the former government!? They were lap dogs slobbering all over Howard and Costello at every opportunity, while criticising Labor on I.R., even though the government’s policy was deeply unpopular.
Only now that Howard nad Costello are gone do they come out and say things critical of their urinate against a wall approach to public spending.
The B.C.A. is gutless and shouldn’t be listened to.
Very silly of the BCA to call for spending cuts matching the tax cuts. Never heard them calling for spending cuts to match tax cuts in other years. Nor were they vocal about the ever rising inflation, balance of trade blowout and interest rate rises under the Howard regime. As the drafters of workchoices, it’s a bit rich for them to now change tack and expect to be taken seriously.
Now it appears that Costello’s budget Surplus might not be all the masterclass effort the GG claimed it was last year. No wonder there was no budget bounce.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/02/surplus-that-isnt.html
So the BCA spent millions trying to reelect the government it knew had, and in all likelihood would continue to blow the surplus instead of spending it on things necessary for economic growth. And it now expects the new government to wear the political odium that will flow from cleaning up the Howard/Costello mess so that in 3 years the BCA can again spend millions to con people into reelecting the clowns with a serial history of spending money like drunken sailors while doing sweet bugger all.
How remarkable! Though not as remarkable as the BCA apparachik’s ability to keep a straight face while shovelling the bull manure!
Re – 294 – scaper… Says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm
“No Jen, he is not up to the speed of any of those guys.
It is time that the legal team extract the origin of this person…a brave move by the Tom!!!”
May I request the removal of comments such as this? While I can sympathise with anyone that considers this individual a big noting imbecile, this is in fact the first occasion that I have provided a comment here. Certainly I wouldn’t bother to follow him around the blogs, as he is ignorantly suggesting. I followed links he provided yesterday on “blogocracy”, he has previously suggested this on other occasions. I regard his opinion as a further example of his complete idiocy.
I note that a related comment on the blogocracy site has been removed.
Tom, I haven’t the faintest idea what your quarrel with this person is about. I’m also suffering from adjudication fatigue.
William Bowe
http://www.pollbludger.com
Shock Horror, The POisoned Dwarf has discovered there are Lactating MP’s in the Parliament.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23268505-33435,00.html
Rudd vows to end “Secret Donations”.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23272995-12377,00.html
With due respect to everyone the BCA was always calling for the Howard Government to invest in Skills, Infrasture and Tax reform but it would appear Howard mistook that for the need for Workchoices.
Quite often the media in this country does not bother to report these things but the BCA was less than positive about Howard except on I.R law
My heart breaks. For Nicole. Australian Story.
If anyone is in the West, it’s worth watching Australian Story about Nicole Cornes. It turns out she was sexually abused when 5 and the court case was happening during the federal election. The Advertiser asked her about the abuse in an interview and photographed her tearing up and used the photo, saying that she cried under tough political questioning.
I love journalists. I can work out why they are viewed as less trustworthy than used-car salesmen, I just can’t understand why they are rated better than drug dealers. I’ve met quite a few drug dealers through work and I know which group I’d prefer to spend time with.
428 Dio,
Blimey! The media…
And speaking of said “Ambush”.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23274780-12377,00.html
Note the comments from an “Aunt” – nothing like a bit of ALP Bashing.
I feel sorry for any journalists actually taking their job seriously, because their mates have destroyed any credibility they may have been able to conjure up. they are rapidly approaching the level of ‘parking inspector’ – a barely necessary evil.
Given the representation we currently have in parliament I’m going to go right out on a limb and say that the common theme is NOT intelligence. Anyone reckon Nicole might give Mayo a go. Even in the event of expected failure it’ll mean she has had two campaigns behind her for Kevin 11?
onimod @ 431,
Agree. There are decent journalists but the crook ones outshine them a lot of the time.
The plurality of opinions expressed via the Net can only be a good thing in my view.
I got the impression Nicole Cornes was quite likely to run in the next federal election. She’s working for a union now, so she can be a “union thug” and a “celebrity candidate” at the same time!
I should add that not all journalists are despicable slimebags there are so many that the whole profession is so tainted that I would only trust one I had personally recommended or preferably knew myself.
I must say Michael Mansell, the Editor of the Advertiser looked fairly sickened at trying to defend the indefensible.
I had a job for five years where I spoke to the press occasionally – once or twice a year.
The sheer stress of knowing one’s comments could be twisted (or just plain misquoted), with minimal recourse, was considerable.
Politicians must be a tough breed – I have a lot more time for them (of any persuasion) than I have for journalists.
Frank Dio,
Missed most of the Cornes interview but the Australian story shows how low the feral media were prepared to go to see Howard and co re-elected.
Good on Cornes though, she has real guts and would hope she does run again.
Yesterday, I googled Nicole Cornes. Just to see. The wholly negative is on display.
I reiterate. Nicole for Boothby. ALP, get on with it. Your time started on 25/11.
This neglect of an electorate, as I have said, could have been won, is not acceptable.
Frank Calabrese Says: @ 424,
Looks as though he will keeping his eyes peeled for the first “lactating father”
to show up in Parliament House.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23268505-33435,00.html
If he goes on another one of his famous “benders”, he might start to see them everywhere.
I have to agree with other commenter’s who have described him as a “grubby little man”.
Just found this on the net but think it must have been in the Sunday Mail yesterday. The journos started circling the wagons yesterday and appear to be miffed they couldn’t find out what was going to be revealed in Australian Story.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23186682-5012985,00.html?from=mostpop
And I seriously meant that I would trust a random drug dealer ahead of a random journalist. Drug dealers get bashed up if they don’t deliver what they promised; journalists get a promotion.
Well, journalists have always been slightly beyond the pale, but it seems to me that newspapers are no longer principaly about news, as in information, but entertainment, and most journalists are now really social commentators and/or barely disguised publicity agents.
Nothing necessarily wrong with that, newspapers are merely adapting to changing times, if only the commentators/PAs woud stop pretending/insisting they are journalists.
I should add that I meet drug dealers when they get bashed up (normally very nasty facial fractures BTW, a pis*ed off druggie really can get nasty).
Not sure Diogenes your favourable comparison of random drug dealers over random Journalists is reasonable or fair.
And then you make a generous comment on Michael Mansell, the Editor of the Advertiser defending the deceptive Nicole Cornes story.
Journo’s storys are generally subject to the sub editor or editor’s decision (or above) as to how to present the story , what is the ‘headline’ , what quotes or part thereof are selectively published and most damaging of all in the context.
The management level of the Media from sub editor up are where blame should be directed and given the facts Nicole Cornes stated tonight on the ABC , Michael Mansell is a disgrace because he would have OK’d the headline & story
either by his direction or with other managers.
Pity ‘boycotts’ could not be effectivew against such garbage Corne’s storys and indeed the ‘OZ’ and others where appropriate
Diogenes at 438.
That item says so much. It is so ugly and viral, I worry for my computer.
As said, I do hope Nicole stands again. For herself, as well as people such as I.
Never mind the poisonous beasties. It is not actually about beating them, but it would be pleasant. And to think I bear Kevin Foley ill will. He is a pussycat against these feral media maulers.
You are in Sturt, I think. Mia, next time.
To my knowledge I don’t know any dealers (though I think a couple of my school colleagues may have gone on to find that calling) but I must say Dio’s comparison is, at the very least, an interesting one.
At least drug dealers don’t pretend they are doing it for the good of society.
touche Dyno
It looks as though they have drummed up their fan club to provide supporting comments for the local media and mostly printed ones that were totally disparaging of Nicole.
Trying to justify their vindictive assualt on this lovely person in such a manner is reprehensible at best.
Shame on you, Adelaide media, shame on you all.
Ron- I got the impression Mansell was washing his hands of the matter and blaming Michael Owen for misrepresenting the circumstances to him. One or the other is a disgrace, but overall I’ll blame journalism in general.
I’ve been involved in heaps of newspaper stories they NEVER EVER EVER get the story right. They have absolutely no regard for the truth. I know of three stories at the moment that would (and probably should) make the front page of the Advertiser if they knew them but I would never trust a journalist with them. They may still get out but if they do, The Advertiser will get them wrong or miss the point.
Yes Diogenes that was my impression of Mansell also , which was what annoyed me as the Managing Editor HE made the decision either solely or with other managers.
and most thinking people know this yet on National TV he gives us ’spin’
…no apology ….no regret it may have not been balanced
Yet the deceptive story hurt Nicole personally and arguably was a further dent into her ‘credibility’. Her story was very moving & I hope she runs again Diogenes
My comment about drug dealers and journalists related only to the “who would you trust” common profession poll. I’m obviously not arguing that drug dealers are better people than journalists.
I am arguing that if you are more likely to get “ripped off” or end up feeling cheated by your interaction with the journalist than with the drug dealer.
I’m often asked by patients and families whether they should talk to a journalist (burns and trauma being my most common patients). I always say “No”. No-one ever looks back and thinks “Gee I wish I told that journalist how sad it was when my son was blown up”. Most of them feel used up and spat out.
I should add that this is not always the case and I found Peter Overton from 60 Minutes really decent after Bali, but again I doubt he actually helped overall, despite the best of intentions.
Also today the Dept. of climate change released a 2007 audit Report of CO2 emissions predicted for 1008 to 2012 when Kyoto concludes vs 2006 audit.
During the campaign Peter Costello said the 2006 audit showed we were predicted to be only 1% above the Kyoto requirement that by 2012 the CO2 levels be 108% of 1990 levels. i now find Peter Costello was statistically correct.
What peter omitted to say and the 2007 Report makes clear is that all the gains have come from reduced land clearing & reafforestation. ie little Govt. policy
(2007 report predicts we will now meet that 2012 target..a 1% improvement)
That Nicole Cornes thingy was a worry
Why put a candidate with those hassles through it?
Why would she do it and why would they allow her to do it?
surly if you do, you prepare her don’t you (for everybodys sake)
450
It wasn’t stated in Oz Story, but I read between the lines from the rushed inauguration of Nichole and understood that the local ALP chose her far too late in the process; either they had someone else in mind who pulled out (or also wasn’t asked in time) or they were just incompetent in dealing with the process.
Meeting Kev, so that any of the tailing media could find out, before she’d been really briefed, and an appropriate minder appointed, probably cost the ALP the seat in hindsight. It’s not like no-one knew the election was coming.
The assumption at the time in the wider population was that she was an under prepared dill who expected an easy ride. Oz story, and the personal anecdotes suggests she’s in fact a very hard working and organised lady.
Also if the media hadn’t been quite so underhanded about revealing her personal issues it seems she was quite prepared to deal with it and was happy to leave it as an unknown issue to the public. She totally destroyed the stepford wife stereotype tonight and replaced it with far more identifiable traits we all have.
classified at 450.
Sometimes, I really drum my fingers. Surely you have read the earlier posts on Nicole?
Do read back. Not merely this thread.
Report your findings, once you have put in the effort.
No offence, but it can become wearily repetitive.
watching the ABC story with foley taking the credit but defusing the lack of ’support’ she got , I thought Crikey will throw a chair at the Tv if Foley keeps going.
how did you remain calm Crikey
Ron, because my TV is a very pretty object. I resorted to tissues.
Crikey… drum away
Perhaps I didn’t make my self clear, I’m on HER side, I think she was let down by the machine! But I do think she might have considered what she was getting into abit more aswell given her current life hassles (more power to her though for having the courage!)
As for reading back… ???… how do you mean, I read every single comment/thread posted here… usually…
something I missed perhaps?
classified, I am pleased to see that you have read the posts. Though you do seem to have missed something.
Such as ’she might have considered.’ Blaming Nicole.
I hark back to my position. It is not Nicole, it is the ALP, for failing to run and put resources into a candidate in my electorate. Over a realistic period of time. Enabling the candidate to be well informed, able and electable.
It is not Nicole who failed me in Boothby. It is Labor.
and it seems to display a simple belief that a ’star’ candidate is all thats needed to win votes….where are the “pro’s”
glad the TV is ok as no doubt Nicole will be a candidate again in the future so that TV will show her
I agree and I said same! … BUT (isn’t there always a but)
Her life hassles impacted on her situation… Those hassles, at the very least made it much, much harder for her to deal with the sH!tsTorm she found herself in!
That is what I meant FFS
classified’s point is valid in my opinion. And that’s not absolving the press or the ALP one iota.
Ron, the ’star candidate’ notion is again the fault of the party. Starry eyed themselves. Thinking that is all it takes.
Maxine, as we know, was in the ’star’ category. Yet she had such an established profile, a lengthy run up. And strong support, locally.
Nicole did not have such an advantage. Time would enabled.
And, classified, I do not think that the personal issues with which she was dealing made the slightest bit of difference. As you yourself say, congratulations on her courage.
Nicole, or any candidate, needed to be brought on earlier.
Who’s arguing?
But I said (there it is again)
paraphrasing here… “might have considered” “but more power to her”
you take that and turn it into (blaming Nicole)?
No, classified. That is not it, at all.
So do not think I am misreading you. I have no reason to think that you are against Nicole.
The point is that Nicole, in my judgment, was capable of dealing with electoral and personal issues. Simultaneously. Hard work, sure.
Many people find themselves in that juggling position. Politics aside. I would not say that it does not take its toll, it does, but Nicole is both young and able enough to handle it.
So, I just do not see that Nicole was hampered by her personal issues.
And that is what I believed you were saying.
OK Crikey… fair enough
I will chat with you about this again.. but right now West Wing” is on and so all other things must wait! (I’m also waiting to get a transcript of the Australian story program so I can prove you wrong)
until then!
Good then, classified. Thanks for the smiles. Don’t know how, myself. Smile, nevertheless. Happy watching.
Crikey et al- Nicole Cornes was the THIRD candidate Labor asked to run in Boothby. They had previously asked Graham Cornes (don’t think it was this election though). They had another person who’d accepted, who was a radio announcer, who pulled out that weekend and they had to find someone quickly. So they didn’t have time to prepare Nicole.
Never thought I’d be a propagandist for the SA Labor Party!
464
Crikey Whitey to create a smiley type consecutively ; and )