The Age has today published an ACNielsen survey of 1001 voters on Victorian state voting intention, which shows Labor leading 48 per cent to 37 per cent on the primary vote and 59-41 on two-party preferred. This compares with 54.4-45.6 at the November 2006 election.
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ACNielsen: 59-41 to Labor in Victoria
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207 Comments
I was surprised at the strength of Labor support here. Although I think Baillieu is a bit of a tosspot, Brumby does seem to be riding roughshod over all dissent in the community.
Which I think is what a lot of voters want.
They want governments to act to solve issues – not prevaricate or to be beaten into inaction by interest groups.
For good or ill, I think this may well become the next style of politically successful government.
I don’t live in Victoria so I don’t know much but in general conservative parties do better on election day than they do in polls. I would suggest that this polls is not showing an increased support for Labor but that they have not lost any ground. This is still a bad sign for the Liberals.
Gee, The Age’s anti-dredging campaign is really working well.
Gee, why dont AC just come out and tell us they only poll the Western Suburbs 59-41 = bullbutter!
Glen, Western Suburbs would be more like 79-21. 59-41 sounds more like Brighton to me.
Brumby is the only Premier I know of who has bothered to meet with protesters – not that they give him any credit for it, but at least he gives them a hearing.
I was also impressed with his behaviour when he was ‘trapped’ by a group of protesters at a public meeting (they blocked all the exits with tractors). He talked with them and negotiated his way out. Given that they were clearly breaking several laws (unlawful imprisonment, to start with), he was remarkably forgiving. To my knowledge, the people involved got off scot free.
59-41!
I’m not too shocked by these numbers for John Brumby is good at getting on with the job and while certain groups may be loud these groups are generally within Liberal Party areas some examples.
Anti dreging – mostly found in the Liberal areas of the Mornington Peninsula
Anti desalination – mostly in the Liberal and National party held Gippsland area
the only group that may hurt Brumby are the Anti pipeline people who are found in the ALP seat of Seymour
So all up Brumby has the strenghts of Kennett (meaning he gets on with it) without the weakness of ticking off the heartland, yes the Teachers and Nurses want highter pay but I can’t see these people backing the Liberals in light of the Kennett years.
I reckon come Election day the result may match the last federal one.
Zoom, I don’t recall Brumby meeting with protesters in fact I seem to recall him running away from the de-salination crowd.
Let me see Glen
1. Red Ted Baillieu, the leader who stands for……….
2. Opposition disharmony with recent leadership spill in Upper House
3. Brumby getting on with the job with the dredging of the Bay opposed by those who will vote Labor), the Goulbourn to Melbourne pipeline (opposed by those who will never vote Labor).
4. Constant disruption and infighting re Costello’s departure/replacement.
5. Coalition with the Nats.
The Libs are a rabble in Victoria. That is why 59-41 is extremely credible.
Have there been any other polls recently in Victoria? Can this be compared to anything other than the previous election result?
Even a rabble would get more than 41% GG, that’s why im circumspect about this poll though i’ve been gradually getting used to the fact that Victoria is no longer the jewel in the Liberal Crown unfortunately its sad but true. I know we’re doing badly across the nation but not this badly.
Yo Ho Ho,
Before Christmas their was a poll which showed similar numbers
Last Newspoll in Victoria, 60-40.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll-v-24dec.jpg
As long as Brumby is more popular in Victoria than Iemma in NSW, we shouldn’t be surprised by these results. That, and what Stephen (3) said.
You lot in Victoria should be thankful for having a Government which actually makes some decisions unlike here in SA. Rann makes all kinds of suggestions, most of them poorly-thought out, and then waits for the criticism to come. When it inevitably does, he gets sicks Foley onto us and calls us whingers. And of course does nothing to fix anything.
Hmm i wonder though. Given the historic result for the federal electorate of Melbourne. Is it possible the greens could win the state electorates of either Melbourne and/Richmond. Brunswick is probably abit rich. Knowing of an almost inevitable labor vicotry at this stage, the absence of howard and the whole coffafle aboot port dredging.
1) The honeymoon of the federal government has clouded this result
2) on the primary figures the greens poll 10 percent. On a basic reckoning that you triple the green vote in the inner city, Melbourne is gone and Richmond and Brunswick are in 1-2 percent territory.
3) The next election will be a contest. 3rd terms governments have a tough time and the libs are not in complete dissaray as has been suggested by others. The coalition agreement shows they are on the offensive.
Depends whether the Greens get Liberal preferences….also the Greens failed in the 2006 election to win any seats in inner Melbourne, but they are a minor party they aren’t going to win seats in the lower house.
Greens will get Lib preferences. The Victorian Libs are not crazy like the NSW Libs. The Vics won;t pass up an opportunity to cause Labor harm and at a minimum make us invest resources on another front.
Ballieu is a disaster. The fact that the Victorian Liberals haven’t even been able to lead in one opinion poll over the last 9 years against a very mediocre Labor government is a testament to their incompetence.
The Vic Libs better get their act together. Instead of advocating a more “progressive” approach (ie running to the Left of Labor), they should try to stand for something. Attacking Labor’s appalling “nanny state” would be a good place to start.
‘Premier Brumby wouldn’t address people at the Melbourne Rally but he invited a delegation from the organizers of the Rally to meet him after it. Speaking to one of the delegation basically he said the Rally hadn’t made a difference to Mr. Brumby and that he was not listening.’
…from a ‘Plug the Pipeline’ newsletter. Written by Mike Dalmau, well known local Liberal.
As I said, he wasn’t given any credit for at least meeting with them.
I don’t know whether – having got absolutely no kudos for doing this – he decided it was an experiment not worth repeating, but at least he showed the protestors more courtesy than they have him.
There’s a strong anti-dredging movement around St Kilda (Albert Park District), and the Greens did pretty well there at the last election (34.7% after distribution compared with ALP 51.8%). However, the new member, Martin Foley, seems to have made a good impression on his electorate and by the time the State election is held the anti-dredging issues might well be forgotten, as long as they haven’t had bad longterm environmental effects. I’m not surprised that Labor is continuing to do well with the pathetic performance of the opposition in Victoria. Brumby doesn’t have Bracks’s charm, but he’s very competent.
I wouldn’t preference the Greens even if the HTV card told me too, id rather the Greens be marginalised. But im in the seat of Prahran a seat the Libs will need to win if they want Government back so that wont be happening anytime soon.
Cityblue, are you expecting the Greens to form a coalation government with the Liberals and Nationals
no. tactical preferences are one thing, coalition is in a different galaxy.
The Greens have touted that they are going to win these seats at the last few elections and have yet to pull it off (not saying they won’t, but wish they wouldn’t cry ‘wolf’ so often).
On what basis do you triple the Greens vote for Melbourne seats, cityblue? Do you have real figures or is this inspired guesswork? There is no variation in the Greens vote between regional and Melbourne voters, according to this poll, so either you are saying that all Greens voters in Melbourne live in these few seats, or….you don’t know what you’re saying at all.
The Albert Park result was clouded by the lack of Liberal candidate, so cannot be used as an indicator of the likely result in a full State election.
Vic Libs MAY preference Greens over Labor but given the extreme right leanings of the remaining rump of Liberal voters, I doubt that they’d follow the HTV under those circumstances (might have some influence in the Upper House….)
Federal Election 2007:
Greens Statewide House Vote – 8.17 percent
Greens Melbourne vote – 22.8 percent
State Electrion 2006:
Greens Statewide Assembly Vote – 10.04 percent
Greens Melbourne vote – 27.41 percent
Greens Richmond vote – 24.68 percent (Greens hurt by Socialist candidate)
Greens Brunswick vote – 29.71 percent
Its in the range, so my estimate is not especially problematic.
True, Zoom, I’d forgotten that there was no Lib candidate in Albert Park. What a demonstration that was of Baillieu’s lack of clout.
Well well Bracksy wasted $200,000 on private charted flights in just 36 months, when he could of traveled commercially…why such an incompetent Government can remain in power gives me the red ass when the Liberals cant get off their behinds and do something…anything!
30 Glen, and commercial flights would have cost how much?
Prior to the 2006 State election, ACNeilson had the Greens on 13% (October 2006).
Comparing like with like, I think that means you can double the ACNeilson figure for Melbourne, but not treble it.
Hardly anything even going business class. Compared to tens of thousands to take him from Melb to Can to Sydney and back. Typical Labor no wonder Victoria is in the red.
What a waste of money for a State leader i mean really i can understand the need for the PM to have that sort of luxury but a State Premier no way.
33 What’s your source for this story? Couldn’t see it in the Age.
Victoria is in the red??
Source?
Wow. Talk about sour grapes, Glen. The Liberals lost. Live with it.
Bracks left – live with that. Nothing I can find about it anywhere but I don’t read Bolt.
Ch 9 which gained the info from an FOI request steve.
Someone mentioned St Kilda (Albert Park) this area could be a shock pick up for the Liberals if they had their act together for both the anti-dregding and anti Triangle development vote could cost the ALP votes but in writing that I’m aware Martin Foley has made a good impression on the locals therefore should be able to hold the seat.
Also the Greens biggest problem in St Kilda is their strongest booth is not in the seat of Albert Park
Some ask about the Greens, look they came very close against Lindsay Tanner and he is more popular than Pike (MP for Melbourne) I think Melbourne could be interesting, I agree the Greens have little hope of winning Brunswick, Richmond could swing towards the Greens but Richard Wynne should hold.
The only real hope the Liberals have is if Brumby falls apart or their develops an anti Rudd vote or if as I’m sure may be the case those who refused to vote Liberal at State level as a protest against Howard.
At this stage the Liberals will be doing well to win Six seats.
I am shocked by the waste Glen.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=60052
Glen
did a bit of research, the only commercial flights within Victoria that I can find go to Mildura a couple of times a week and to Mt Hotham in the ski season.
I’m sure there’s one to Albury as well, just couldn’t find it.
Still, if there’s only three destinations in Victoria the Premier could fly to commercially, it explains the need to charter.
The Premier of Victoria needs to visit places in Victoria, often at very short notice, and many towns in Victoria are only accessible by chartered flights.
Certainly, in the months after the bushfires, that’s how he visited areas such as Bright, Manfield and Omeo.
Also, it may be possible that the Premier may visit 2 or 3 locations in one day, along with Minders, heads of departments etc – bit impractiable toy use commercial flights.
Also, Charted flights also afford privacy to prepare speeches/do briefings etc.
I’d bet Glen wouldn’t be whinging about Howard’s use of private jets when he was PM ?
So use a combination of car and commercial/local air services, there is no way to excuse this waste of money Frank especially when Bracks took his wife to Hamilton island at Taxpayers expense.
Frank i dont have a problem with the Prime Minister of Australia (of any Party) using such services they truly need them but 200,000 dollars in 36 months for just a Premier seems a bit rich to me.
Victoria in the Red? Not likely, it is in the black by over a billion dollars. Part of the reason the teachers are demanding more money.
B.S then why is Labor racking up State debt?
45 And why has Victoria got a top notch credit rating?
Jeff Kennett oh and the GST!
Glen is partly correct about the Brumby Government borrowing money but over all the Victorian Budget is in very good shape with bigger than promised budget surplus.
I can list a whole range of complants with this Government but over all the Victorian Government is in better shape than most of the other States.
I’m not sure if Glen is aware but Kennett did not leave Victoria debt free, the state still had a debt of $6 Billion this fiqure is about what it remains to this day, and while I don’t like Governments to have debt but as long as the over all budget is balanced then the debt is manageable, as someone who has worked in Finance I can assure Glen that without Debt, business could not operate.
At the last state election the Libs only preferenced the Greens in four seats.
I can’t imagine them preferencing Labor in those four seats next time around (and a few others maybe, if not statewide) after four years of virtually working side by side in the legislative council.
It’ll be interesting to see if Richard Di Natale wants to take yet another tilt at the seat of Melbourne. I think he’d win it this time around. You can’t come that close that many times (in Melbourne at state level, and in the senate at the last federal election) and not come away with a win on at least one occasion.
I think the only for a Liberal party recovery nationally is if some of the Federal members go into State politics – they will have nothing to do for the next 6 years anyway.
14
TurningWorm Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Last Newspoll in Victoria, 60-40.
Soon we’ll be hearing Big Ted cry out:
“We’ll be back! We’ll be back!”
It’s The Narrowing.
Glen, run for the hills. The Victorian Government credit rating is a paltry AAA and the news just gets worse.
A forecast rise in Victoria’s net debt would not be problem for the state or impact its top line credit rating, ratings agency Standard & Poor’s (S&P) says.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/debt-wont-hurt-credit-rating-sampp/2007/05/01/1177788119734.html
Glen,
For goodness sake get some mates to play.
You keep on banging your head against the brick wall. But, you never give up.
Good for you.
If the Liberal Party is looking for supporters with Heart, they can never go past you.
Cheers.
If anyone is in the West, it’s worth watching Australian Story about Nicole Cornes. It turns out she was sexually abused when 5 and the court case was happening during the federal election. The Advertiser asked her about the abuse in an interview and photographed her tearing up and used the photo, saying that she cried under tough political questioning.
I love journalists. I can work out why they are viewed as less trustworthy than used-car salesmen, I just can’t understand why they are rated better than drug dealers. I’ve met quite a few drug dealers through work and I know which group I’d prefer to spend time with.
Glen would much rather Victoria be in the black than spend money on infrastructure. Have I summed up your position accurately Glen?
Gary Bruce I think he is just confused with the way the Liberals handled their Federal budgets over the past twelve years.
You are right Steve. Glen wants the state Labor government to buy their way back into office each election with tax cuts and handouts. Yeah, that’s it? Am I getting close to your position on this Glen?
Slightly changing the topic. Can someone tell me the faction representation in the New South Wales parliamentry labor party? Just out of Interest.
Unfortunately,for Glen now that the Federal Propaganda machine of the Liberals in Canberra has had it’s wings clipped, he will find that he could pick any state and find prudent economic management.
Swan will soon drag the Federal budget into order and the last bastion of Tory propaganda will be shown to be nonsense. I refer of course to the often repeated lie that, “interest rates will always be higher under a Labor Government.”
Short term while the Liberal Party mess is cleaned up – Yes. Long term – No
I hope the critics of Nicole Cornes were watching Australian Story tonight. She ran a terrific election campaign despite malevolent media and the distraction of a particularly nasty court case in which she was the very innocent victim. Now she’s enrolled for a masters degree in international law. Is there anyone who still thinks she’s a bimbo?
Steve @ 61,
Felt like moving in to a bit of Queen’s ” We will rock You” after that contribution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC1ZWQKgyMo
Make the most of the poll Brumby because these numbers will not last. My tip is that the next election will be close.
Brumby is no leader, polls are just about oh gees i’m alright economically so i think Brumby is doing a good job, but when people really concentrate which they will do at the next election people will see Brumby for what he is arrogant and aloof. Ballieau is the same a toff who is boring, when he speaks he has short sentence way of talking but without any punch. Nonetheless as the economy worsens so to will Brumbys’ poll numbers.
To me neither party in Victoria believes in anything and has any vision. Brumby all for the top end of town and Ballieau all for the top end and cutting public services at the same time.
Thanks GG, think it is going to be a tough 15 years or so for the conservative side of politics.
Phil i hope you are not suggesting that people who do degrees are smart? Look at George Bush, for example.
66 I think he was saying that Nicole Cornes is smart, marky marky.
And i am suggesting that George and Nicole should get together.
Well, given the recent spilling of blood on this worthy site I hereby declare myself as a supporter of Ted Bailleau, in an honest effort to ‘even up the balance’.
And I hope you all know how much this hurts, but it’s a sign of my committment to the cause of…evening up the balance.
68 marky marky, we don’t want George to look like a dill, now do we?
Jen, in that case you’d better learn to spell his name!!
Do you think you can bring yourself to vote for Silly Billy, simply in the name of balance??
Jen,
It is OK on this site. Seeing as the Greens and the LIbs are such pally pals here in Victoria. You know, always voting with the Libs in the Upper House.
God bless you and your conservatsim.
marky marky,
I thought were a bit better than that.
That is the sort of thing that even a bottom swelling, fish and chip wrapper journalist would find too distasteful to say in print.
@72
Greens parties internationally tend to work effectively in coalition or informal partnership with conservative parties. They complement each other’s weaknesses pretty well and are effective as a result.
So if being green on the outside and pink in the middle makes you a watermelon, what are you if you’re green on the outside and blue in the middle?
(Actually, I’ve just realised…it makes you an adolescent….)
Jen, The Liberals should look to selecting the Member for Scoresby as its leader- Kim Wells, because he explains himself well and talks without this plum in his mouth.
He looks also like an ordinary bloke.
Hate to help the toffs but to me he should be leader of the libs in Victoria. Although yet he hasn’t made much of an impact as OPP Treasurer.
Now GG- that was a low blow .
We only vote with the Libs to allow the state to run. We could cause unnecessary grief but that would just being recalcitrant for the sake of it. And we like to make it worth our while.
Besides Guys, I’m just saying I’d support the libs here.
You don’t know what I might do when I’m alone in the ballot box with a pencil.
Here we go again, the same lies about the Greens and the Libs in Victoria. Just because the Greens vote against things for principles and not for politics.
77 Jen, if you are going to run with the Libs, people are liable to mistake you for a Lib. I don’t think that any obscure ‘balance theory’ is worth the pain. Most people are here because they want to be, I won’t be putting myself in the Tory camp for the sake of ‘balance’ I can assure you.
The Greens aren’t squeaky clean when it comes to playing politics. Anyone who believes they are believes in Santa Clause as well.
79
MM
Calm down .
After Brumby has pissed off half the state , and the libs are looking as much of a joke as they are now (with an extra dollop of help from the Federal Party), the Greens will come to the fore.
I predict that at the next state election, with water, logging, dredging and other environmental issues becoming prominent that the Greens will be a major influence.
Marky marky, I’m interested in your support for Kim Wells. Considering your high-minded principles which you display on here regularly, I am wondering if there is something about Kim Wells which I have missed. Is he any less about the big end of town than Brumby?
80 Steve . We don’t “run with the libs” – soemtimes we both vote against Labor, For very different reasons, but still a No vote.
So then it gets twisted into us supporting the Libs rather than not supporting Labor.
Spin, my friend.
Sorry Jen,
It has been that sort of day.
Now the Nats and Libs have re consumated their lust for each others better parts, the Greens are left at the altar.
Think Democrats. Think irrelevancy.
84 I thought you said you were going to turn tory for the sake of ‘balance’.
Kim Wells is a light weight and comes across as a moaner. I will say however he couldn’t do any worse than Big Ted, who by the way I think is probably a decent bloke but just doesn’t present well IMHO.
Jen
Can’t recall me criticising the Greens. Where? Jen like you i am a bit of a greenie, do not know though about this coming to the fore bit, as i doubt it but i hope it is possible.
Gary,
Yes all parties have faults but at present the Greens have the least amount, and at least have a few principles.
Turning Worm
Never said that Kim was not a part of the big end of town.
Put simply i was referring to his image with the public, how many people actually know what the Libs stand for, and i doubt very few people do, and that is the very rich.
To sidetrack- news today says that the Business Council believes that Howard wasted all its years in office, and yes it did, but the galle of the Business Council a group who paid for at the last election a massive ad campaign backing workchoices! who do these people think they are?
The Rudd Government should tell them to go and jump.
the sad thing about Oz politics is that the spectrum extends from the Liberal Party to the Labour (Labor) Party ….. that’s like being provided with a choice of anything is possible as long as it is the tolerance of + or minus point 000001
86. Steve.
a woman’s perogative and all.
85.
The libs and Nats merger will threaten, um….. anybody??
Dingo,
You have not been reading this blog for very long have you?
Marky mark-
I get that. Just saying don’t get too worried – our time will come as the others self immolate.
They tried One Nation in the Queensland Parliament but they never progressed past what we saw in the Federal Parliament on Friday and eleven quickly became one.
No Greensborough Growler … what would it show if i had been reading it??
Gary who would leader of the Labor in Victoria if Brumby got hit by a bus tomorrow?
95
Jeff Kennett.
The ALP will find it hard to govern for its first term after all it will probably get nothing other than WC’s thrown out given its poor standing in the Senate.
Question Time on tomorrow?
Dingo,
Do your own homework.
90 [a woman’s perogative and all.]
Turncoats do not have a good record politically in Australia, ask Mr 9%.
Dingo: that there are a lot of people to the left of the ALP. Though I guess your point is that they aren’t represented in parliament.
97 [Question Time on tomorrow?]
No, only when parliament sits,except Fridays.
99 steve.
Geez,
maybe I’ll have to reconsider, but it was looking so good there for a while.
bah the British House of Commons sits more than our Parliament what a bunch of slackers!
Glen,
What are WCs?
The liberal party rags are under attack.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Kerry-Stokes-seeks-WA-News-board-coup-C5UGJ?OpenDocument
Glen, hard to govern… I see and hope some trade offs occurring regarding poker machines with Nick Zenophen. Mr Zenophen seems to be a bit of a lefty so i do not quite get his hard to govern bit? What Glen will the Liberals role be in the next three years?
Doing an Alexander Downer and out to lunch?
103 Glen.
I do believe it is your little friends who are carrying paper dolls into the chamber and carrying on like a bunch of kinder-kiddies (all at our expense) about the whole idea. Have you begun to see the light?
The Greens really only have a chance of winning lower house seats in the inner city of Melbourne if and only if the Liberal vote remains extremely low. To get Liberal preferrences they need to be in front of the Liberals when it comes to the final candidate to get knocked out.
Although this poll suggest the Liberals are going backwards statewide, in the inner city things might be a little different. If traditional Labour voters start getting moved out by out the area by rising house prices, who is going to replace them? The young people who tend to vote Green or the older people with loads of money who tend to vote Liberal?
And if the Liberals do get in front of the Greens, Green voters are not going to preference them over the ALP no matter what the party tells them.
And the work in the bay is not going to be an issue if nothing happens to the bay in the long term (95% the most likely). It is not like the bay water does not get extremely cloudy and dirty after a heavy rain washes 2 million dog’s doings into it.
No, my point is we live in a two-party state with the system designed to prevent real political competition … which is ironic given that both branches of the Party (Labor branch and Liberal branch) have “strong” policies to support free markets, contestability and transparency etc etc ………
It is evidenced by the debate on here which is endless point scoring about Lib/Lab posturing .. nothing about Australia … )
I know i am naive…
Workchoices
You can log on to the Queensland Parliament tomorrow at 10.30am Glen and question time will be on. Watching Springborg getting flogged is always fun. Especially now he has a failed Liberal from the last Federal Election as his Seniorpolicy advisor.
Two party democracies do tend to be more stable.
And it seems to be fairly natural for a democracy to end up with two major parties. You have a government and you have a group that opposes it. Sometimes they swap positions.
108-
you’re completely right that if the dredging has no impact then no one will care. But I rather think the point to the objections (cross party) is that it will have an impact. And then it will affect people’s vote. And we (Greens ) will benefit. But all too late to stop the damage, which is why it is happening now no doubt and not in 2010.
Hahahaha
A new scientific theory .. two parties are “natural”!!!!!
and the same old defence of the two-party state which happens to be the same defence used by the one-party state that is “more natural” …. and stable!!!! If so, B S Fairman, I assume you support a one-party state as better, as it is more “stable” (whatever that means)?
Jen,
I promise that Labor will have something as reprehensible as the future development Victoria on the agenda at the next election.
107
jen – i hardly see the point of Parliament sitting if their is not a enough members required for a division and if most if not all the Ministers of the Crown and the PM is not attending. It’s just a waste of money IMHO. Just remember if he has another RDO (Rudd Day Off) then they’ll (Coalition) will continue to make a mockery of the sitting of Parliament on a Friday and Kev will return because look at how well Kev’s good news story went last thursday got trumped by Don Randal’s cut out of Kev.
marky – probably waiting for a recession.
Dingo its better than in Germany, look at the recent Hamburg election the CDU got 42% the SPD 34% the Greens 10% and Left Party 6%, now that means the CDU may have to form an unstable coalition with the Greens….the last thing you want is minor parties dictating major policy directions like the Greens.
Must agree the dredging will not be issue. Finished eary 2010. Election six months later and it will be forgotten.
Will only be an issue if a big boat sinks in the bay and as a result dredging caused it.
Unfortunately Jen Dredging will mean little.
What may be an issue is the tunnel project which will occur under the northern inner city, but only in the inner suburbs.
The economy will no doubt decide the next election, and i think it could cause an upset if it is going bad. The Greens will only ever get traction if climate change has a massive impact or oil runs out… Sorry Jen the Greens only area of influence will be in the upper house and this may waver due to the high quota.
We need a proportional system in the lower house, this would make help the Greens to get some seats but the major parties will not have a bar of it.
Given that shipping is so much more efficent than any other form of transport (Road, Rail, Aircraft) and therefore produces less greenhouse gases, I am amazed that any Green who has a big view of the overall approach to climate change would object to the bay dredging. It is like objecting to Wind farms.
113 Get up to Brisbane and fight for the Greens in Toowong in the Brisbane City Council elections on March 15 if that’s where your heart is, Jen. The problem for the Greens in Queensland is they have never won and there is some doubt if they know how to win, but there is a 30/30/30 split in the polling there at present and one to watch on March 15 according to Mark Banisch at LP today.
96 Jen, wash your mouth out with soap. Kennett and Brumby are nothing alike. For one thing, Kennett has higher hair.
I think Dingo that you may be a little naive about how political parties win elections. They all gravitate to the centre to snare 50% + 1 votes. Hence the reason Labor supports private health insurance rebates and the Libs dump work choices. Moreso the parties use various polling techniques to get a feel to what appeals to the majority of voters. You will find that the majority of voters are not closet revolutionaries, that they value stability and transparency in the political system.
Glen
You hardly ever amaze me anymore .. in that your reactions and comments are so boringly party predicable I wonder if you are a Party computer response .. are you a LibBot??
It is always the same .. the major parties always say that the minor parties are “dictating major policy directions”. Think about that mate. What does it say about the following:
1. The strength of the “major” party?
2. democracy and the choice of the electorate? (i know those are dirty words to Liberal and Labor bots like you)
Dredging is not about shipping, it is about the ecology of the bay and the organisms living within the bay and the toxic dredging of material at the Yarras’ mouth and finally the economics of the project that being that the costs and benefits of this project nearly equal one another. What kind of clown decided this project when little economic gain is apparent. Is this the kind of vision we what for Victoria?
Dingo i never said that i said that i didnt want extremist minor parties dictating major policy. Ah correct me if im wrong but 47% of people backed (preferred) the Tories at the 2008 and what less than 10% back the Greens so how should the desires of 10% of people overrule the desires of 47% of people?
No Zedder, I am not naive, The reason you say that is because of our inequitable voting system whcich makes all votes drift back to the Lib?Lab Party. This essentially disenfanchises everyone who does not support the Lib/Lab Party. I am 57 years old and have never had a government that reflects my views ….
Glen: Step one for the Liberals to actually get anywhere is face up to reality instead of carrying on with a lot of crap.
1) Channel deepening. Supported by the average person who votes liberal for economic reasons. Having watched this site for some time I am sure there are heaps of Green voters here that do not, but are they going to vote Liberal, I don’t think so.
2) Pipeline.
a) It happens to be the right thing to do. You have to maintain the cities ( and I live on a farm).
b) Bet you any money most seats are in the city.
3) Brackes is gone, get over it. Brumby is leader now. The labor party has succession planing the Liberal do not. Very poor business planning by any standard.
4)Chartered flight; the one that comes to mind is the one that was late for a debate with Jillian Gillard.
5) Brumby has some brains.
Dingo – I am suggesting that the two party systems occur because of the theory that “you are with us or against us”. All the major democracies all seem to end up with two major parties. That is a fact. And there has to be a reason why it occurs (without suggesting crazy conscipracies).
One party states are extremely unstable because they breed corruption and there is no other clear choice. Hence if the ruling party falls, like when the soviet Union fell apart, there was a period of instablity.
Dominant Party states (South Africa, East Timor or even NSW) also are not as good at keeping corruption under control as two party states because the oppostion is too weak to do anything.
I’d just like to see Ted just say what are some basic/core Liberal policies because all the 3 second soundbite stuff is just negative, negative, negative and we’ll never get any traction with that. Unless the Libs define some core policies well before an election they’ll stay where they are in State politics lost in the woods.
Jan what happens if the deepening has a positive impact? The increased rate of water circulation just might clean the bay up a bit.
If I had to put money on it however, total impact; zip nadda nothing. Well a slight increase in the bay tides, from not much to not much. And once again the greens will have wasted a lot of political capital on nothing while real issues are ignored.
Dingo,
Welcome to the debate.
Did you know that over 85% of voters at the most recent Federal election gave their first preference to either the Coalition or Labor. That is 6 out of 7 people.
Now, I know this reperesents the tyranny of the unintelligent majority. But, can you describe how you have been particularly disadvantaged by this phenomenon and whether the rest of us should give a flying whatso.
Maybe, being a pain has its downside.
Opps – Forgot that East Timor changed last year. You could replace that with Italy for a great period of the post-war period.
apres-
consider it washed.
But really, can’t you see some similarities apart from the hair?
For a start, there’s the “let’s throw lots of money at the Grand Prix even though it loses us millions of dollars a year but we get to be on tellie overseas” scenario.
And then there’s the “we can’t tell you because of commercial confidentiality” story.
And then there’s the “Let’s build roads despite the environmental and economic costs becaues public transport is for the poor people and they don’t vote much”
argument.
And my favourite – “let’s spend zillions on useless ticketing machines, and then zillions more on enforcing their use, rather than putting conductors on public transport because we don’t want the unions involved, even though the whole systenm is a complete joke”.
As for dredging ther bay… now rthere’s a cunning plan. Until the next lot of ships are even bigger and then, um,…
I almost miss Jeff. Except he appears to be still around.
Glen
You cannot debate … “extremist” minor parties .. I assume you mean anything other than the Lib/Lab party??
“Dictating” .. I assume you mean negotiating outcomes? I know that is alien to your thinking….
You think everything is in terms of “overruling” .. what is wrong with concensus or accommodating?
I think our country should embrace all views not a winners/losers view as I know the Lib?Lab Party advocates….
I know I am out of step …
Dingo, me thinks you quite enjoy being out of step.
I’d far more be able to reason with someone from Labor as i most of my friends vote ALP than somebody who votes Greens. Sure the Greens have their place but to say that a small fraction of society should have say the balance of power in deciding whether bills become law is a bad idea. Look it might be unfair to the very small percentage of society but more than 85% voted either Tory or ALP thus their views count far more than yours.
GG i think our country would be served if that one out of seven were also represented in Parliament.. even if, in your eyes, they are wrong
118 B.S. Fairman
‘…a bit like opposing Windfarms”.
Until very recently – and I have asked, in an earlier thread, for someone to confirm whether this is still the case – the Greens did not have ANY policy on windfarms.
I am told this is because it is impossible for them to reconcile the NIMBY members of their party (the ones who like the countryside to look pretty and who drive 4WDs so they can go out and look at it in the way nature intended) and those who want clean green energy, so they’ve simply wimped on it.
I also find the Greens opposition to the north south pipeline a bit perplexing, given that a proportion of the projected water savings is to go to the environment (whether there will be water savings is a different argument).
Again, I think this may be because of the NIMBY factor.
As a Second Generaton Italo-Austrralian (was born here), even I’m amazed at their system of government where expats can nominate for the senate and even win.
And the fact that Prodi lost his majority and there will be an election in April, where there is every chance that Silvio Berlusconi may again triumph.
Glen!
Are you saying thatwe can’t be friends???
(sob). I’m off to bed.
B S Fairtman
The two-party state also breeds corruption..eg Bjekle-Peterson in Qld, Askin in NSW, Ieemma in NSw .. etc ….
Can someone explain this for me :
The Australian Business Council blames the Howard Government for not spending money on infrastructure in affect wasting it (which it did) but than tells Labor to not spend any money for three years. What are these dills on about?
ZOOM!!!!!
read the bloody policy (don’t know how to do the link thingy) on sustainability and renewable energy.
It clearly states support for:
solar, geothermal, and WIND!!!!
I know how hard that must be for you Jen but there you have it.
Anyway i know i have about 1/6 of the bloggers on pollbludger on my side anyway so i know what its like to be a minority.
Jen as we’ve become aware our opposing views make it impossible to come to a reasonable standpoint. I may disagree with the ALP but they are more in line with my views than the Greens.
Im surprised the Greens didnt put alot more money into holding Cunningham in 2004. But hey they only won that seat as the Tories didnt field a candidate.
Dingo,
But they are represented.
Look at Sophie Mirrabella and Wilson Tuckey out of step with the majority over the apology.
Look at FF representing 1.4% of the population.
Please describe an acceptable representation model for you that would involve you getting off your backside and doing something rather than bitching.
Glen
I find your unflectiveness extra-ordinary … if greens had balance or power is only because of the support of the Libs? What are you talking about? If you thought it was serious you would support the Labs!
Glen. Why the crocodile tears????
Business Council welcomes a call on freezing for parliamentary salaries but not on executive salaries, which have exploded in recent years… The hypocrisy of the BCA at work.
But Glen what are the Liberal parties core values? That I think is the core problem.
Menzies was a liberal, Fraser was a liberal, Kennett was a liberal, Howard was not.
Remember the phone call several years ago when Kennett and Peacock where complaining about Howard destroying the Liberal party, they got it right, and the reason they got it right is that we now have a party that doesn’t know what its core values are because it lost it’s way about 10 years ago.
Now it is a party full of rat bags why believe politics is about being nasty to liberals and behaving like little children.
That Glen is the problem. Ted is a reasonable person with a dysfunctional party behind him. And if you don’t believe just read the comments left on the Australian blog when Frazer came out and stated the bleeding obvious.
Jen
I have been a good person and gone to the Greens website.
Couldn’t find anything in the Climate Change policy referrring to windfarms.
Typed ‘windfarms’ into the site search engine and got nothing.
Typed ‘wind’ into the site search engine and got 3 referrals, each to media releases, none expressing Greens support for windfarms.
Absolutely positively prepared to retract – and said that I thought the policy situation had been remedied – but can’t find any basis on which to do so.
zoom,
You did not go to Bob Brown’s personal site.
What does the Labor Party believe in Charles?
Yes tend to agree that Ballieau is a coconut without a tree but to me the polls will get closer as the election nears. Brumby to me is not all that well liked, the same for Ted but as the economy weakens which it will Ted may suddenly find himself Priemer. People rarely look at what parties stand for other than in the case Howard who was the most conservative PM we have ever.
I’m happy for the Australian Business Council to pick up the tab on a few infrastructure projects so the government can freeze spending……
(Me thinks they’re in a race to the bottom with the journalists)
Sorry had instead of have.
Business council have one interest only and that is excessive wage growth for its CEO’s, could not care a stuff about the future of the country.
Why are they criticising the Howard Government now? Why not last year? The BCA are a bunch of Conservative people who vote conservative along with National Farmers Federation who represent the big end of town and care little for you and me Ominod. Why are our poliiticians so weak with them. It is pathetic.
Dear GG
Sorry to be on my backside … but ..
1. i do not think that a few maverick members (on a few points) is the same as having Real minority representations in Parliament ….
You Lib/Labs don’t get democracy do you??
It is alien to you
Seeing it was the Business Council that backed workchoices to the hilt, Labor should thank them for their budget submission, throw it in the bin and get on with implementing their election promises and getting the inflation curbed and interest rates back down.
Dingo,
Describe what it is you do not get from this strange thing we call democracy in Australia.
Be specific.
mm @ 153,
Moreover, it’s not as if there’s anyone who is bound in any way by the BCA’s views.
If I was a politician and I wanted to know what banks thought, I’d make four phone calls (one to each CEO). If I wanted to know what miners thought, I’d call BHP and Rio and one or two others. And so on.
Bodies like the BCA are a waste of space in my view – not even representative of those whom they claim to represent. Tell you what, if the NAB felt really strongly about some Government policy, they wouldn’t be sitting back and waiting for the dorks at the BCA to speak on their behalf.
GG
we have representational government NOT democracy
as a representational system i just want our Parliament to reflect the primary votes… i know that is an anarchist/radical thing that threatens your Lib/Lab Party…
Commerce Queensland actively campaigned for Springborg and the Nationals a couple of elections ago and have not been taken seriously ever since. The Federal Government could treat this mob who won’t take wage restraint seriously with the same contempt as any other fringe group who will not actively work for the betterment of the nation.
steve,
Yep, basically agree.
As I said, if you want to talk to the banks, talk to the four CEOs. And so on.
Don’t waste your time with a bunch like the BCA who aren’t actually in charge of anything.
160 They are in charge of something Dyno. Ludicrous pay rates for CEO’s.
That’s the Boards of Directors of the companies, actually.
Dingo,
Threatened. You got to be kidding!
Succes in politics is not an abstract pursuit. You actually need to get support of a group of people, develop policy, allow it to be scrutinised and then soldier on through the blood sweat and tears of political inertia and bastardry.
The most likely success is through a traditional Party.
However, if you think you, Fiona and Boris at the local pub are a collective force of political acumen worth dealing with, then prove it.
Tell us how you went next time you put yourself forward for election, Dingo. Look forward to hearing how the system will change to accommodate your view of it.
162 Very cute semantics there Dyno, and we both know that if the political wing of the Business Community does not believe in wage restraint then nor will any Boards of Directors of the companies, actually.
NSW ACNielsen
TPP: Labor 51, Coalition 49. (50-50 with 2007 election preference allocation)
Primaries: Coalition 42, Labor 38, Greens 11, Independents 4, Family First 1, Democrats 1, Others 3.
Iemma: approval 34, disapproval 44.
etc.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/support-for-iemma-hits-10year-low/2008/02/25/1203788248511.html
O’farrell has low recognition among the public. However this is understandable given it’s early in the cycle and federal politics has dominated during most of his time in the leadership.
NSW Labor really needs a series of very bad polls to wake it up.
New thread up on the NSW poll.
Why should I have to/need to go to the site of an individual politician to find out the policies of a party?
Individual pollies can (and often do) hold different beliefs to the mainstream of their party.
My question is not about Bob Brown’s policies on windfarms (which would apply only to Tasmania, anyway) but the Green Party’s policy.
Which gets me off onto another tack, which is the equation that Greens = Bob Brown.
First of all, one person being seen to be synonymous with the party as a whole is always a worrying development – and one of the problems the Liberals had with Howard (and are still having, which points to the dangers).
Secondly, there seems to be a ‘BB is god’ mentality amongst many of the Greens I know, which suspends their critical facilities (assuming they have them). Anything
BB says is taken as gospel and questioning any of his decisions is met with stunned disbelief.
Thirdly, it skews Green party policy towards BB’s own personal beefs (I have referred before to the placing of Tasmanian forests as of more environmental importance than climate change policy).
The Greens generally portray themselves as more intelligent and sceptical than the average party member so I’m constantly surprised at their willingness to be part of what appears (from the outside) to be a dictatorship.
If I am seriously being told that I should go to BB’s site rather than the Greens official site to discover what Green policy is, then that’s just another indication that the merging of the party and the individual has gone too far.
Come on marky marky, State premiers to be blamed for weakening economy. Get real.
Dyno Says:
February 26th, 2008 at 12:09 am
You want the official definition or the actual?
Official: They are appointed by the share holders who own the company to run the company, and this applies to all company big and small.
marky marky Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
That is a good question.
In my own view, they are a diverse party, much like the liberals used to be.
I think they believe in capitalism but not to the detriment of labor unlike the current Liberals who seem to want to screw the young with their changes to the labor laws (thank heavens that nonsense has been put to bed).
They seem to show a little more respect for minorities than the Howard Government did ( I will never forgive him for the deliberately setting out to divide Australia), I won’t label the Liberal party with divisive policy positions as it still has some decent members.
But most importantly of all, Labor seems to want to Govern Australia, where the nasties in the Liberal party want to control the party first and set policies that make the party unelectable, winning elections comes second.
charles,
As I’m sure you know, the official position is that the shareholders appoint the Directors and the Directors appoint (and decide what to pay) the CEO.
The actual reality of how CEO pay is set? Varies quite a bit from company to company, in my observation.
Here is an interesting site that demonstrates all the love the Libs have for each other in Victoria.
http://hewhostandsfornothing.blogspot.com/2008/02/pull-out-digger-dogs-are-pissing-on.html
Dingo: I was not suggesting that corruption does not occur in two party democracy. But if one party is much stronger than other, there is a greater chance. In such cases, it is not really a Two Party Democracy but a Dominant Party democracy where only one party really can form government either by themselves or in a partnership.
Zoom-
“The Greens will:
Reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by 20 per cent by 2015.
Decommission Hazlewood power station by 2015.
Increase the production and use of solar, WIND and geothermal energy.
Introduce a carbon levy to fund energy efficiency, production efficiencies and renewable energy.
Establish an Energy Efficiency Adjustment Fund to assist industrial and commercial consumers.
Invest in public transport and rail freight instead of roads.
Promote energy-wise houses and businesses. ”
from the policy statement for Vic Greens at last election.more detail available on posiion aper on senator’s website.
RE your comments about over -identifiaction withh BB. Fair comment and we are looking at all of these issues now election is over.
Cheers!
Jen 132
Yes, I agree that there is a managerialism to how Brumby runs the State that is not unlike Kennett’s approach (very similar to Bracks’s approach and to my workplace as well, and many others). The Grand Prix was Kennett’s baby, much as I wish Bracks had found a way to give it away; the commercial confidentiality excuses are tiresome (again, similar to excuses I hear in my workplace). And I would far prefer to see money invested in public transport than roads.
But… Brumby doesn’t close down schools and put teachers out of work. He doesn’t force privatisation models on local govt. He doesn’t punish anyone or any organisation that criticises him. He does provide funding to organisations working with marginalised people. Yes, he’s a ‘fiscal conservative’ but he’s nothing like Kennett.
apres –
bit of poetic license perhaps on my part.
Afterall – NO one is like Jeffrey Kennett. (Caligula perhaps…??)
But if the Libs were not so pathetic Brumby wouldn’t dare try on some of this stuff, so happily I can still blame them.
Bracks/Brumby have not repealed any of Kennets reforms.
Not counting more teachers, more police and more nurses.
GG its easy to do those things once the state was returned to AAA rating and surpluses were established.
182
Wait, but as i learnt at the Fed election, the states are all hopeless financially mismanaged….
Yo ho ho, only Labor states are hopeless financial managers.
Sorry JoM, i keep forgetting that fact.
When will those darn hippies learn to manage money?
JOM @ 182,
Only problem for you and the Libs is that Kennett did not spend the money on services when he had the chance.
GG
Are you saying the Grand Prix is not an essential service?
Jen,
Rev heads are people too.
The GP is just an annual circus troupe. It has provided a bit of gusto to the old city, kept the Save Albert Park protestors feverishly busy and fills a gap in Melbourne’s busy schedule of events.
Has not been the boon for local businesses orginally alleged and the public subsidy of $36m is staring to look a bit rich.
I’m in the don’t really care if they stay or go camp post 2010.
GG @ 186, if only Howard and Costello were as principled as Kennett and Stockdale when it came to economic management. Whatever you think of Jeff, he had fortitude. He refused to hand out the pork for the ‘99 election becuase it wasn’t right thing to do with the public’s money. He stood by what he believed to be right and accepted the will of the people. Whatever side of politics you are on, you have to admire that and give it due respect.
glen, since you know it all, what is the REAL figure supposed to be???
you are a tool
TW,
1. Politics is about winning power and then retaining it.
2. What Kennett believed or stuck to is irrelevant.
3. He failed to adjust to the new reality that people had had enough of the cuts to services and wanted the prosperity to be spread around to important things like schools, police and hospitals.
4. Jeff left a surplus that Labor used to parlay into two further elctoral routs. Thank you Jeffrey.
Kennet did well but his arrogance got the public off side. His biggest mistake in my mind was trying to remove the independance of the DPP. I’m a liberal supporter and I didn’t support that.
Can someone tell me why Cate Blanchett, WTF? What has she done besides help a hobbit return a ring?
GG, there could have been another new reality in Victoria, along the lines which Howard and Costello created federally. I am grateful that Kennett had the fortitude not to go down that path.
JoM, Cate is one of our most celebrated artists and from what I understand she will be chairing Ruddster’s committee on the future of a creative Australia, or something like that.
Creative Australia? Let me guess every child gets a set of Derwent pencils, lol!
It’s a Creative Revolution, JoM.
Good work TurningWorm, very well put.
Apologies, Jen – but, as I said, I did TRY to find it myself!
Bracks and Brumby undid a lot of Jeff’s ‘reforms’ – for example, restoring the independence of local government.
They went even further and updated Victoria’s constitution, which had remained unchanged since 1852. This included dramatic reforms to the Upper House, which actually allowed other parties to hold the balance of power (how democratic is that?)
The reform agenda has been slowed by two main things -
(i) Labor did not hold power in its own right from 2000-2002, but relied on independents for support. It did not hold power in the Upper house either.
(ii) Kennett tied up some contracts so tightly that they have proved almost impossible to break and have hampered reform. This is particularly noticeable with rail – the Kennett contracts were so irresponsible that there was no mechanism to ensure that railways were maintained to a reasonable standard. The Labor Government was only able to buy back the Wodonga line late last year and has now had to close it because of its poor condition.
There are countless other examples – electricity has been privatised, which makes the task of dealing with climate change a bit more complicated than it would have been otherwise, for example.
Don’t see how you can reasonably fault them on financial management, J of M, given they manage to simultaneously maintain the triple A rating AND employ more nurses, teachers, etc. – a juggling act Kennett was simply not up to.
189 TW
” if only Howard and Costello were as principled as Kennett and Stockdale when it came to economic management. Whatever you think of Jeff, he had fortitude. He refused to hand out the pork for the ‘99 election becuase it wasn’t right thing to do with the public’s money. He stood by what he believed to be right and accepted the will of the people. Whatever side of politics you are on, you have to admire that and give it due respect.”
Jeff Kennett was a complete prick.
One of the happiest moments in my otherwise sad, tragic life was when he lost to a complete unknown. Still makes me laugh just thinking about it so I guess at lesat he is fulfilling his role as a crusader for understanding depression- afterall, he caused enough of it.
180
John of Melbourne
Rubbish. As soon as Labor got in they reversed his manic rules which forced people working in local govt to tender for their own jobs. This was a massive waste of time and resources and good people lost jobs.
198 Jen
Absolutely true. A lot of people had their lives turned upside-down by Jeff’s heavyhanded ‘reforms’
“Don’t see how you can reasonably fault them on financial management, J of M, given they manage to simultaneously maintain the triple A rating AND employ more nurses, teachers, etc. – a juggling act Kennett was simply not up to.’
Quite right Zoom,
Any drongo can slash jobs and spending to create a surplus, no skills required for that.
Way back at no. 135, Glen said:
I’d far more be able to reason with someone from Labor as i most of my friends vote ALP than somebody who votes Greens. Sure the Greens have their place but to say that a small fraction of society should have say the balance of power in deciding whether bills become law is a bad idea. Look it might be unfair to the very small percentage of society but more than 85% voted either Tory or ALP thus their views count far more than yours.
Glen makes the mistake of assuming that whoever has balance of power is pretty much in charge of the joint. They are not: The Government is. And even in the upper houses, the major parties have the vast majority of seats. If the major parties agree, the legislation gets through, and there’s nothing the Greens can do about it. Having the balance of power is only useful when the majority disagree. They act as a tie-breaker, a third opinion. This means that decisions the Greens arbitrate are agreed to by a majority of the voters: around 43 per cent from one major party and 10 per cent from the Greens, for a total of 53 per cent community support. Of course, this is less than the 85 per cent support you can get when the major parties agree and the Greens disagree, but what would you prefer? That 43 per cent walk over potentially 57 per cent without regard for any other opinions?
By having a third party hold balance of power in the parliament, you will have majority community support for decisions much more frequently than with only two parties. It is simply another way of achieving the same goal as preferential voting in the lower house, and surely you support that?
“to say that a small fraction of society should have say the balance of power in deciding whether bills become law is a bad idea.”
I would agree with that, we saw a lot of it during the Howard years:
Abbott views on RU486, termination counselling stem cell research became government policy even though his views represented a small fraction of society.
Similar with the National Party, they get only about 5% of the vote but their views on the the one wheat desk and AWB determined govt policy.
Same with Kyoto and the apology, overwhelming majority of Australians for both but a small group within the libs were able to impose their view onall.
John of Melbourne Says:
‘Can someone tell me why Cate Blanchett, WTF? What has she done besides help a hobbit return a ring?’
Of course you wouldn’t express this doubt on account of Cate is a woman, JOM, so I’m wondering what she’s done wrong apart from being clever, accomplished, successful, Artistic Director of Sydney Theatre Company? Oh, and rich (you’d have to like that).
JOM -
I’m with you: Why Cate?
Should be Jeff.
Jen 204
OK, then let’s have BB and Cate, seeing she’s building an environmentally perfect house.
Come 2010 the Victorian ALP Government will be 11 years old making it the third oldest Government in Victorian history behind the Liberal era 1955-1982 and the Dunstan National Party Government of the 1930-40s yet the Liberals look further behind than ever before while we have a State Government that is average at best crusing for another easy election win.
Should the Liberals change leader, No and for one simple reason it’s not the leader that’s the problem, it’s the policies or lack off.
We have discussions abut the Kennett era and what or hasn’t been done since but what the voters want iasn’t talk about yesterday but how will Government fix the mess with Public Transport, fix it’s planning plicy an how will it improve Hosptial and Schools.
There is a danger that the Government could make the mistake that the Howard Government made and that was talking to it’self while the problems went unaddressed.
I’m sick and tired of this Brumby fellow. He is a mongrel who has upset our Police, Nurses, teachers, Firemen. Who does he think he is? He certainly doesn’t represent the working class. And doesn’t give a sh.. about anything except his political gains. He’s a liar and a nasty man.