Another week, another Pennsylvania countdown thread. I owe Andrew Bolt a link, so see here for a revealing view of the Gallup poll trend as the Reverend Jeremiah Wright affair fades from view.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Pennsylvania minus three weeks
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s/ empathic.
#800 Ron
Nah – but many may say that this is just another Rondroid moment.
See Jen’s post at #802
One of the characteristics of Obama thought the campaign is that he has spoken about things he believes – an on occasion some of these statements get exploded by the MSM. I can understand the MSM motivation – but I don’t get your motivation. Do you actually disagree with the notion that some people do feel bitter about the situations they are forced into? There is nothing condescending here. Instead – you are witnessing a degree of honesty which is nothing more than a breath of fresh-air. The honesty addresses the realities on the ground when confronted with a government administrations biased towards business development at the expense of the people (which is a reasonable strategy providing the value trickles down). But the reality is that the trickle up pain is exceeded anything arising from the trickle up solution. Where Obama differentiates himself from his competitors is in his understanding that you don’t necessarily have to play the same game – sometimes it’s better to change the game.
s/the trickle up solution/the trickle down solution
Ron, Pancho, dont know how long this will last and the impact. But this is one is different because it came out of Obama’s mouth. Unlike the others, eg: the pastor and his wife. This was him speaking. It will also hurt because it attacks the so called “middle America”.
I think the SDs will really start to get nervous about Obama in the general election. A pattern is emerging here that a number of very negative tags are and can be labeled against Obama. Because this one one came out of his mouth and it was made in the very Liberal San Francisco, it will only re-enforce that Obama is very left, liberal, not 100% patriotic and anti middle America. These are and will be fatal for him in November.
Hi there junior senator-
let’s face it we are never going to win this argument with one-eyed Clinton supporters. If Obama speaks the truth he is elitist, if he empathises with the plight of people who are struggling, then he is condescending. Clearly what will never be acknowledged that he is a decent human being with a far better grasp of the realities of American’s lives than the likes of the spoilt brat Hillary Clinton. But then those that support him are Ivory Tower dwellers. Ha.
let’s not forget that we are also misogynists.
Although I suspect I’ve said enough about that particular sledge.
#806 – jen – [If Obama speaks the truth] – There is NO truth.
Like contact lenses, truth is only in the eyes of the beholder. Especially, not from a professional politician like Obama. So please, i thought we have agreed that Obama is not a messiah.
A pomo take on the US elections Finns!
It is difficult to disagree with what Obama has presented from a detached point of view: people of Penn. seem unhappy, they don’t make much money, and they have previously voted or identified with religion or guns rather than what he is presenting. I agree the presentation was clumsy, but as I said above, it is Obama who has made the running so far and framed every issue in a way that has been advantageous to him. You can be sure that he will get a mountain of press in Penn. now, and have any number of platforms to clarify his position. Given the way that this campaign has played out, I wouldn’t be too surprised if, after a dip, this ends up being another positive for Obama.
Ronaldo at 800: [The story may fade , given the ‘left’ leaning US mainstream press which is the reverse of what we have in ‘oz’]
Yeah, Ronnie, ‘left’ leaning closet-pinkos like the NYT and WaPo and WSJ who eshew the values of their MIC and corporate sponsors so that socialism can run amok amongst sickos and slackers who live solely to sponge of the establishment at the drop of a food stamp. Human trash who’d sell their own children to white slave traders in order to secure an overnight doss in a trailer park. They spit on the grave of Leo Strauss and lots worse.
Honest citizens and Patriots can no longer trust a single word that these recidivist, Leftist “mainstream press” spruik.
Did you know, Ron, that Judith Miller former Ace Stenographer of the NYT is a Commie fifth-columnist? Ridgy didge! Furthurmore, Judy is about to bear Robert Novak’s love-child just so she can draw social security as an unmarried mother?
These people are unmittigated scum!
Finns, he’s not a messiah, he’s THE messiah. Luke Skywalker said so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cvxPvvjp1U
Zogby poll in PA (sample 1002) 47/43, Clinton +4.
Temple Uni gives int 47/41 Clinton +6.
One and a bit weeks to go it seems pretty tight. I can’t see Clinton losing PA, however a win by 5 or 6 points could hardly be considered a win (no matter how the clinton camp spin it).
Claude -
if Penn. goes down to the wire and Hillary wins it by 3 votes they will still make out that it is a landslide. They never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Finns-
#806 – jen – [If Obama speaks the truth] – There is NO truth.
Tell that to a mother with young kids, no work and nowhere secure to live. These are the people Obama is speaking about. And what he is said is correct – they have been let down by the political leaders.
Surely to suggest that people’s genuine struggle “is in the eye of the beholder” is as elitist as you can get.!
793
Diogenes Says:
April 12th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
785 Pancho
‘Obama turns another negative into a positive’
yes he is trying to.
But by cynically extracting ONLY the word ‘bitter’ from his San Francisco speech
and then deivering a very powerful argument based mainly on ‘bitter’.
(and that new argument may be true….its certainly politically brilliant)
However , the rest of the words he used to describe hardship “working class” he did NOT properly explain aay in his subsequent speech
Those words will haunt him because they came out of his mouth and without any qualification. They represent a condescending view of the hardshop ‘working class’ & empathy with qualifiaction.
furthermore , had those words been said by McCain against a “black” community, he would have been labelled ‘racist’ , which by even generous extension indicates Obama was separating himself (almost as an ‘elitist’) from those ‘working class’.
The subsequent Obama ’spin clarification’ concentrating on ‘bitter’ as the speech’s base I knew was enough to convince the rusted on supporters , including the Obamabots here. If Pennsyvanian voters only take notice of the ’spin clarification’ speech he may actually gain net votes there as the argument is politically sound & brilliantly delivered.
For mine , ‘elitist’ is too generous a description of what Obama reveals (uncensored and IN FULL) in San Francisco
(about his views of hardship ‘working class’)
but Malcolm Turnbull for one would be comfortable saying those Obama words
Ron, it is not Obama who extracted ‘bitter’, it was Clinton. Her immediate response was
And you say Obama used bitter without qualification. His original remarks are below, and there is much nuance to them:
And on a side note, neither Obama, nor Clinton (who made $110 million in the past 8 years) nor McCain (who sits on his wife’s inheritance of hundreds of millions) can claim to be of the working classes. So that argument will not be used by any against the other, and it is disingenuous for outsiders to use it against one of the three but not the others.
r?ron -
you are clearly right. Because he shows concern and understanding for the situation that people are struggling with, and their resulting anger and disempowerment, the he indeed is elitist.
So, of course was Mother Theresa, Ghandi and Jesus using your criteria.
(think I might give up now).
#817 Jen said …
I feel your pain.
#816
Pancho
Keep up the good work.
However painful we need the r/Ron in its place.
Yes, thanks Pancho.
You have me forbearance than I.
And what’s with Grinch and the music ?? I’m almost missing the abuse.
Oh, another slow news day I see.
Pick a word, any word:
bitter,better,butter,batter
…and toss it around for a day or two, throw in some perjoratives, spice it up, bake it out of context, until done.
Serve lukewarm to a bored witless audience, and call it Commentary Caserole.
Yum, yum, feeds your brain, eh?
815 Ron
I think this one will play out much the same as Wright. This time Obama has to, rightly, explain why an elitist liberal would be a good person to represent a constituency that he has nothing in common with (I should add that I am not criticising Obama for being an elitist liberal or for thinking those things, I am exactly the same but I sure wouldn’t be running for POTUS).
The rednecks were never going to vote for a liberal black POTUS so he hasn’t lost many votes. Still, no-one likes being analysed and stereotyped, especially if it is correctly. As I’ve often said;
“Mankind cannot bear very much reality.”
The worst thing about it from my point of view is that Obama has, for the first time, been dumb and clumsy himself.
Like Wright, it won’t affect the Democrat nomination but the Repugs will latch onto it like flies on sh*t.
Diogenes -
even if the Repugs blow it up who is going to change their view given that the people he decribed are unlikely to be Dem voters anyway, and the Dem voters will see it for what it is – an honest appraisal of the impact of failed social policy.
Clumsy, maybe, but by the time Hillary gets thumped in Penn it will be old news.
Braeking news from CNN: Obama has turned water into wine.
But Finn, did you read the later news? Cheney turned it back into vinegar.
Pancho
you misquoted me saying I said
“And you say Obama used bitter without qualification”
I said
“But by cynically extracting ONLY the word ‘bitter’ from his San Francisco speech
and then deivering a very powerful argument based mainly on ‘bitter’ ”
That was the thrust & basis of Obama’s ‘clarification speech (even though he snuck the other words in in passing). The basis was why people are bitter
LETS STICK TO WHAT OBAMA SAID from his mouth
In his ’spin clarification’ speech he did not say
why they cling to guns
why they are anti immigrant
why they have an a antipathy to anyone different to them
BUT Obama’s ‘clarification’ speech basis was NOT why the American ‘working class’ are ‘clinging to guns’ & are “anti immigrant with the reason they are tired of all Politicans promising everything and delivering nothing.
No , Obama’s speech was based on why they were ‘bitter’ (only one of the original words) at politicans promising all and delivering nothing
Disingenuous yes , deceptive of what he originally yes
politically a good ’spin’ and as usual well delivered.
After the Pastor , and now this…how long will his disingenuous use of words & brilliant oratory avoid the inevitable of being completely sprung and then ALL of these past issues will return concurrently
And just who is listening to Cheney?
And now for something a bit different. just watching a bit of the 2020 Youth Summit on Sky. Kate Ellis and Ginger Julia have just spoken to the young ones. That Minister for Youth, Kate Ellis is looking and sounding very good.
Something has just struck me. have you guys notice how well the Rudd’s Ministers have done and performed, not a single dud. Even Swanee is preforming much better now. He was very confident the other night on 730 Report.
827
junior senator
And just who is listening to Cheney?
…only George.
At least we can give the republicans credit – they recognize the reality that is the candidate.
junior senator
“At least we can give the republicans credit – they recognize the reality that is the candidate.”
sadly, the same cannot be said fo some of our fellow bludgers: who would have thought that we’d have to credit Repugs with more sense?
Hey Finns -
and walking on water, healing the sick and raising the dead. And trumping Pennsylvania.
Imagine if he WAS the Messiah!
Rob @ 825 sweet but wicked; as usual.
828 Finns
There is a great big dud sitting in the big chair of health. I’m not sure why she even bothers turning up for work. She seems to have decided to keep Jane Halton on which says it all really.
She has worked out that she has NFI about her portfolio and instead is implementing Big Kev’s puritanical drive against the menace of youngsters getting drunk.
Ron,
You say @826
You said @815
I have only extrapolated from what you put on the page. Then you say
But if you look at 816 you will see that I have quoted exactly what came ‘from his mouth’. With respect, I think you are misrepresenting.
Pancho et al
I wouldn’t get too worried about this one. McCain has already said the same thing.
“It’s the influx of illegals into places where they’ve never seen a Hispanic influence before,” McCain told me. “You probably see more emotion in Iowa than you do in Arizona on this issue. I was in a town in Iowa, and twenty years ago there were no Hispanics in the town. Then a meatpacking facility was opened up. Now twenty per cent of their population is Hispanic. There were senior citizens there who were–’concerned’ is not the word. They see this as an assault on their culture, what they view as an impact on what have been their traditions in Iowa, in the small towns in Iowa. So you get questions like ‘Why do I have to punch 1 for English?’ ‘Why can’t they speak English?’ It’s become larger than just the fact that we need to enforce our borders.”
McCain Said It, Before He Attacked It
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/mccain-said-it-before-he_b_96314.html
Pancho-
do you think you are going to get anywhere?
All I wish to say on this issue is to quote another “elitist liberal” – ironically enough a natib of the Midwest:
‘A South politician preaches to the poor white man,
“You got more than the blacks, don’t complain.
You’re better than them, you been born with white skin,” they explain.
And the Negro’s name
Is used it is plain
For the politician’s gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game.’
Replace the “Negro” with immigrants or gay marriage and the point remains true.
EC, re post @ 790, that’s a deal! If McCain wins Alaska by >10.00%, you owe me one bottle of petaluma, to be delivered to my nominated address at your expense…obviously I owe you the same if its less than 10.00. I’m also tempted to place a bet that Ted Stevens hangs on…but let me ponder that for a few more weeks! (last time the Dems won a Senate election in Alaska was the 1974 Watergate landslide)
To paraphrase Bob Dylan:
“How many people can you offend before they call you bitter”.
“Yes, n, how many apologies can you make, before they call you a fraud”.
For a unity candidate, Obama is doing a good job of dividing the electors. First, his pastor was offending the America nation. Then his wife was saying that she was not pround of America until now. Then, the man himself, offending middle amercia, especially gun owners and religious people. For a smart and supposed brilliant politician, a supreme orator where words matter, Obama is harvesting from his own bitterness.
Obama rues ‘bitter’ voter remark
Barack Obama in Indiana (12 April 2008)
Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama has said remarks about “bitter” working-class people “clinging to guns or religion” were ill-chosen. After a storm of criticism from his rivals, Hillary Clinton and Republican John McCain, Mr Obama said he “didn’t say it as well as I should have”. He made the contentious remarks at a fundraiser in San Francisco on Sunday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7344532.stm
Scales are falling from “Deer Hunter” eyes as the battle for hearts, minds and souls rages unabated.
Obi speaks the awful truth that for many in PA (and elsewhere) who dwell in the savage underbelly of “The American Dream”, the bogus “Dream” is unattainable and has been for over a generation. That “Dream” is what Fagin and Becker referred to in all its glory as a “Royal Scam”. “The Deer Hunter(s)” know it deep down but never before in their voting lifetimes has a future president articulated this brutal truth.
Brutusina, Bomb-Bomb and The Beltway can’t handle the truth being spoken to usually dog-whistle-able white trash. They lose if the rubes wise-up to the rort.
The PA primary may well show that all the people can not be fooled all of the time. The Kid is offering a different kind of a dream, a “New Deal” that is premised on not treating poor people like fools. In a little over a week we’ll see just how many of them have heard Obama’s message.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/catherine-crier/punished-for-the-truth_b_96358.html
—————————-
Bewdy, Chris, an added frisson awaits us on the the first Sep Tuesday of November.
EC,
Are you claiming that Obama’s underlying message is that the “Amercian Dream” is a scam? That’ll go down well.
Obama said in his “More Perfect Union” speech.
“In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination – and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past – are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds – by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper. ”
If the practical implementation of Obama’s rhetoric on change is summed up as follows,
“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them,” he said.
“And it’s not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations,” he added.
then Obama has a major ongoing problem. The questions from now on will be based around “What is he really saying”.
GG It appears it doesn’t matter anyway as the vote will be rigged by hackers. Roll on democracy!
“This year, the U.S. will pick a new president using electronic voting machines that can be hacked, security experts said Thursday at the RSA Conference in San Francisco.”
U.S. Presidential Election Can Be Hacked
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/144431/us_presidential_election_can_be_hacked.html
GG
What he is saying is fact. That despite the “American Dream” many people are left behind and are struggling. Where is the inconsistency in that?
Toasted.
http://www.slate.com/id/2175496/
Thank you, jen at 844, that’s precisely what I was saying. Gotta watch that Growler, he’s the prince of dissemblers.
#844 – Obama is in big trouble on this one.
Like Kevin07 episode in China. Where and to whom you told it is very important. Telling it to rich California fundraisers about the bitterness of Pennsylvanians is not smart politics.
For a smart politician, Obama is slowly losing the narrative war here. The Trinity of him: the father, the wife and the husband, the narrative is emerging that has an ANTI slant. The Father doesn’t like America. the Wife is not proud of America and it looks like the Husband doesn’t understand America. In political war, once you lost the narrative, you lost, as per our last election.
To say that America embraces gun, religion and racism because of economic factors shows the shallowness of Obama. Gun, religion and racism have been with America since the day Mayflower On Saturday, November 21, 1620, landed at Provincetown Harbor, Massachusetts.
“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them,” he said. “And it’s not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations,”
Finns
That’s a bit disingenuous. Guns etc have always been in the US but Obama explains why they are so big in the redneck towns. Actually he could have added lack of education and giving out a high school certificate toanyone who knows which end of a pencil to hold.
Again, I urge everyone to read “Deer Hunting with Jesus” by Baigent for a wonderful description of these people who are not seen in the “American hologram”. Obama’s recent pro-guns stuff comes straight out of the book, which I will swear he has read.
Finns, that is garbage. Obama has controlled the narrative this whole campaign, and decisively since February. And he will not lose it while leading the pledged delegate count by about 170. I agree with you that his words were bad politics and he needs to refocus, but you lose a ‘war’, as you put it, to some other party. Clinton, his rival at this point, has no narrative at all. Or perhaps I should say she has had about 15 (is it the post-modernism you aluded to above that you find enticing in this?). In the past week she has had to sack her chief strategist, had debt collectors making noise, and a surrogate-husband sticking his foot further down his throat. If she wins Pennsylvania by 20, perhaps your argument will make sense, but it doesn’t at the moment.
Finns – I’m not sure what the man has to do -to show that being aware and understanding of the particular issues working class people face and the consequent reactions to that somehow makes him unaware and anti- Amaerican. Are you suggesting that it would be prfererablefor him to say that All Americans are prosperous, well-educated and treated fairly by the systems in place. That is clearly untrue, naive and ridiculous. And Elitist in the extreme. So Obama speaks with honesty and is condemned as politically naive.
Wish there was more of it.
(s/ American,preferable)
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