The first federal Newspoll in three weeks has Labor’s two-party lead steady at 59-41. Kevin Rudd’s lead over Brendan Nelson as preferred prime minister has widened from 60 per cent to 64 per cent, having gone 73-7 to 70-10 to 73-9 over the past there surveys.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Newspoll: 59-41
Copyright © 2008 Private Media Pty Ltd, Publishers of Crikey.com.au. All Rights Reserved.
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Editor: Jonathan Green.
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494 Comments
Be prepared for another Opposition Orifice “issue” to be revealed on Thursday, targetting a minority group that would appeal to the average Aussie.
I predict something along the lines of first home buyers myself, and/or something related to Medicare payments.
Watch for an intensification of the spite and hate from Liberal supporters on the blogs this week.
So “The Ear” is back to getting the single digit from voters.
It’s already started on Perth Now over the announcement that Ch 7 Perth Political Reporter Reece Whitby seeking ALP Pre-Selection for the State Seat of Morley.
RX@2
No thanks, have spent a bit of time on some of those blogs & the spite & bile there already is enough for me.
The problem for the opposition and their media mates is that nothing is working. If Rudd comes up with results in the main areas of concern (health, education etc.) they can prove Rudd is the anti christ himself and he would still win the next election.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23503731-601,00.html
So what is wrong with at least holding consistent PPM ratings. Any fluctuation has been reasonably consistent with the MOR but unfortunately, I would assume the Coalition supporters and Members may have been expecting a slightly better performance by the good Dr.
I hope they don’t get their hopes up too high because it is apparent Brendan has his sights on setting new records of irrelevance to the Australian political system.
Holy Moses! Has Hell frozen over?
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/pms_salute_much_ado_about_nothing
Well … not quite, JA still reserves some vitriol for the “far left” – but it’s all rather tame nonetheless!
Well I am surprised. Either Rudd walks on water or the LNP swim in sewerage. No gravity here.
From Burkegate to Salutegate not a lesson has been learned by the Liberals or the Liberal Party newspapers. Lying, sniping, misinformation and dishonesty seem to be the only weapons in their arsenal. The Howard govt legacy.
Without some ethnic group to demonise, fear to peddle, smears to imply, refugees to abuse or wars to crusade they are have only their own abilities and record to rely on. But they don’t even bother with that and instead run a coordinated program of nitpicking and invention with some newspapers.
They are trying to win points off Rudd rather than be a genuine opposition party. But I guess the problem is they can’t be an opposition as they are divided in themselves and cant develop a position to run.
Sad to see Bob Brown feel so desperate for air that he joined the salute criticism. I would have thought he would have been planning a great surge of the Green to take advantage of a ailing LNP.
Hehehehe I said on several OO etc blogs, no point venting spite & bile here, you need to get behind the Fibs & do some real work on policy, building party numbers, getting rid of the extreme right. Never so happy to have my advice ignored!
Bob Brown is a clown. Always thought so.
Nelson must be trying some product differentiation from Malcolm Turnbull with his latest monarchist decree. For a pictorial view of Brendan, Lord of the Cinque Ports click here. Doubt it will be a vote winner.
Watching Kev and Therese (wearing her plain red coat) walking along holding hands and smiling with the snow falling on their bare heads and Kev waving his hand around as if to catch snowflakes while they made their way to church yesterday was like looking into an old English painting that could have been titled “Winter wonderland for Lovers”
Any wonder Australians have genuine affection for this lovely down to earth couple.
If Liberal supporters continue to try and convince the rest of the population that the following quote is the current reality, then these poll figures are going to persist for a long time. We are not that stupid.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/pms_salute_much_ado_about_nothing/P125/
“He has spent most of his 17 day trip spouting venom about John Howard’s Government” I saw this earlier, have not seen any reporting of such venom from Rudd. What will they be like in 3 or 6 years time? Mentally diseased from hate hate hate?
Vera, might be a girl thing. Love your description. And its appeal.
Crikey, I think Therese is fantastic she always seems so cheerful and approachable. She seems like she would give really great hugs.
Crikey, funny, that. My feelings when I saw it was that it that it reminded me of a traditional Christmas card scene. I too thought it was lovely.
Surprised at you, Scorpio.
My 19 addresses your 14, Scorpio.
Vera, I bet she keeps Kevin nice and warm on a cold night too.
And here comes the Shamaham.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/dennisshanahan/index.php/theaustralian/comments/poll_puts_brendan_back_on_brink/
“The poll, taken at the weekend exclusively for The Australian, shows the Coalition has failed to peg back Labor’s dominance despite Dr Nelson’s political win in forcing the Prime Minister to announce a June visit to Japan after the Opposition accused the Government of neglecting a key strategic ally.”
What political win?? Kevin Rudd isn’t going to Japan on his current tour.
Not only that, it was the biggest non-issue since salutegate
Vera, I have not seen these images. Though I have seen Kevin and Therese walking along in other venues. Natural and uncontrived. Unlike the stage settings of the last decade. Far more pleasant.
What? For reading the comments on JA’s blog.
Come on. I need some entertainment while I am waiting for comments to come up on PB.
Vera, I mean, really… puke , herk, chunder…
Sorry, just too much saccharin for even the truest of believers to swallow!
Damn you Frank. Just when I was ready to head to bed too.
I can’t wait till morning so I may as well check out Shamma’s latest rant now.
On Tomorrows News, I may not have heard correctly, a person called Ingham or something like, is favoured in Gippsland as the candidate.
Fulvio I hope you had a paper bag for all that chundering! Otherwise William is going to need to find a mop a bucket to clean up your mess!
Fulvio! I cannot speak for Vera, but I love, they, more importantly, love a bit of yep puke etc. Saccharine especially.
Crikey, i bet Fulvio is really just a big softie at heart
Chacun a son gout.
If he takes too many more hits, he will end up like HMAS Sydney and sink to the bottom.
They are very slow learners, these Libs.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/dennisshanahan/index.php/theaustralian/comments/poll_puts_brendan_back_on_brink/
Oh, such a happy bunch!
Heard the whisper out there…obviously not.
Boy, the higher you fly, the harder you crash…let’s see the rant by the beagle of sea gull.
Maybe he is camped out in Solomon street to get his latest scoop???
After all, he needs a free mantle goose and gander MR protector???
I would not presume, Vera, on Fulvio’s cultural origins, but Fulvio does possess a rather glamorous name. Far more glam than mine.
Making wild assumptions, I ascribe a certain je ne sais quoi.
“There’s no light on the hill, just the sound of crickets in the dark,” was how one despondent conservative powerbroker summed it up.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23502478-7583,00.html
Extract, note especially per Vera at 36.
‘Gippsland could easily fall to Labor, particularly if there is a three-cornered fight, and Nationals strategists believe that without some structural agreement inside the Coalition, it will be hard to keep the Liberals out of the contest.
I like the Header too.
Goodnight all. Its 1.24 am here in Qld and I think I have had enough reading for one day.
Apologies Crikey and Vera. I tried to find the picture of Kev & Therese in the snow for you but couldn’t find it.
It was a lovely picture though.
Crikey, this reminds me of a great night of foreign language invective on Bryan Palmer’s site many months ago when someone broke out somewhat rudely in German (I think it was Glen) and was responded to in not so complimentary terms by half a dozen bloggers in several languages.
Multiculturalism at its best.
Well, Fulvio. Glen, it probably was. He is so inept.
Got to go now, friends. Goodnight, Scorpio. Having a yuk experience, not me, a friend. Thinking of you. Until the morrow.
Scorpio #39
thanks for searching for that picture, I managed to find it.
Crikey it’s here if you’d like a look.
I’m off to bed as well
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/04/06/1207420201383.html
And on cue, Shamaham raises the Republic.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23504039-601,00.html
I am guessing the headline will be something like “Rudd uses taxpayer money to fund vote buying trip…”
Tom.
In the jargon of statisticians the polls on Nelson’s PPM indicate a stable system that says that he is on the nose. Not a good poll, not a bad poll, just another poll. The next one will predictably lie between two calculatable values.
I’m surprised no-one’s titled an analysis of Newspoll with “Lies, damned lies and …”
I don’t think it’s so much that Nelson’s ‘on the nose’ (although I’m sure there is a percentage of people who dislike him) but rather than people don’t know who he is and don’t care to know who he is.
He really just was the wrong choice and if completely ineffective as a leader of a party. A leaders needs to be more careful in choosing what to comment on and criticise otherwise they just sound opportunistic and petty. Also, perhaps someone with a smidgen of passion and charisma… we already have one dull and robotic person leading a major party, we don’t need two.
47
LTEP
They also need a leader who can honestly claim to have voted Liberal before entering parliament.
When the good doctor appears on television looking ever so serious I see in my mind’s eye an undertaker who thinks he’s speaking to distraught members of the deceased’s family. The trouble for him is that the vast majority of viewers are far from distraught – most are overjoyed that the old bastard has gone. How apt that the Liberals elect a leader who is slowly but effectively digging a hole, deeper every day, in which to bury the party.
Nelson seems to be unable to rein in his shadow ministers and backbenchers. They spout off on any subject, any time. They freely (Turnbull) talk about leadership aspirations. The leak stories detrimental to Nelson to the press. They make speeches (Bishop) in support of Work choices when their leader has declared it “dead”. Worse than all this, his members’ defence of him is very tame. They are not prepared to go into bat for Nelson or his leadership, other than to mouth platitudes. Nelson’s strategy for dealing with this policy anarchy is to agree with everyone.
Hence, it is clear that Nelson has little respect and little authority in the party he is supposed to lead.
He can only blame himself. His checkered career of political allegience – now Labor, now Liberal, now never-Labor, now never-Liberal (all uttered with total conviction… at the time) – his technique of making friends within the party by agreeing with whomever he is speaking with at any moment (until he agrees with the opposite position a moment later in another conversation) may have got him the votes, but they have also lost him any chance at the authority he needs to make the best of his leadership. Nobody owes him anything, but he owes everybody everything. And he can’t deliver.
If Turnbull is installed, I doubt whether he’ll do much better. Maybe five or ten points, but not much else. There’s this myth going around that Turnbull is the more natural leader of the party. I think that is poppycock. Turnbull is guaranteed to screw up. He’ll throw a tantrum, he’ll try to be too “tough”. He’ll make some cringe-inducing malapropism which will remind everyone he’s a politician who has bought his way into power. That image will then stick forever. Turnbull is no politician.
Who else is there? Last year when I wrote that if Howard went there was no-one who could take over turned out to be the view of the party as well. Hence the failed Intercontinental putsch. There was no-one to replace him. There is similarly no-one to replace Nelson, with the added sting that while Howard at least had cojones, Nelson certainly doesn’t.
Nelson is a Labor man hiding in a Liberal skin. He couldn’t make it with Labor, so he switched sides opportunistically. What chance could he possibly have with the Libs? An ersatz conservative braying on about his six guitars to prove his cruiseyness. Gimme a break, Brendan. while he’s out in Voterland “listening”, the voters are listening to the noise and the din from within the Liberal Party. It’s completely drowning out anything that Nelson could say on his Magical Mystery Tour, even if he ramped up his guitars to “11″ on the knob and played Stairway To Heaven.
“Call me – Brendan” is a deep cover labor mole in the Liberal Party. He was conscripted by Dr David Crean (Simon’s brother) and Duncan Kerr in the late 80s.
He never wanted to be the member for Denison, this was a ruse to get him into Bradfield.
Since his election to parliament he has been white-anting the Libs in each of his portfolio roles. His last major coup for the Labor Party was the “Iraq is about oil” comment.
His infiltration is now complete – he is doing his job perfectly.
(I love a good conspiracy theory).
Careful ruawake – someone will call you in to replace Milne or Pies, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
This is sad. John Button has died.
He would have had to have been the most competent Minister in the last 60 years, bar none. And a nice fellow too.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/former-federal-labor-minister-john-button-dies/2008/04/08/1207420350369.html
when will the Libs ditch Mr. Bench Warmer? I can’t wait
.
The longer Mr.9% holds on the position, the more humiliating he will face when he is eventually thrown out by his colleagues.
The dilemma is the party, out of courtesy, waits for Mr.9% to step down on his own accord while the miserable no-hoper can’t cut lose himself.
Here here, Scorpio. A very sad loss indeed. John Button was proof that when you enter politics you don’t have to check your conscience at the door.
I wonder where the polls would be if the MSM gave Rudd positive coverage? Virtually the only positive coverage he has had since becoming opposition leader is the coverage of polls, and even those have been spun at times
Vale John Button. A great man and a great minister.
John Button was responsible for the resurrection of Australia’s Manufacturing Industry after John Howard as Fraser’s Treasurer, had virtually destroyed it.
The country owes him a huge debt.
The Fraser Government had decided that the country was going to ride into prosperity on the back of a predicted, enormous commodities and resources boom and that we no longer needed a viable manufacturing sector.
How wrong they were. Metals and minerals prices plummeted, Britain joined the European Common Market and Europe’s Agriculture sector had recovered from the detestation of WW2 and the majority of our markets for agriculture products no longer existed.
I can still remember watching on TV every night the chaining up of the gates of Industrial Plants one after the other and thinking at the time that this was something that would prove disastrous for the country let alone for the people affected.
I was soon proved to be correct and it took an enormous effort by the Hawke Government to restart Australia’s Manufacturing Industry virtually from scratch. This work was carried on by the Keating Government and the benefits of that endevour were reaped by Howard.
He could never bring himself to acknowledge that because it would have exposed him as being the original cause of the demise of the Industrial capacity of the country.
Vale John Button. You were a champion.
Yep,what BB said @57
Vale John Button
The decent of our media commentators to total irrelevance is almost complete.
Journalists covering Rudd’s overseas trip have decended to now being “Fashion Commentators”.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rudd-meets-the-queen–and-talks-about-weather/2008/04/08/1207420341360.html
Here’s Shannahan’s effort.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23504039-601,00.html
Scorpio @ 60 – I can top that
From http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23505026-12377,00.html – “PM on an extended honeymoon – Nelson”
Direct quote from Nelson:-
“I will under no circumstances stop from doing what I’m doing,” he said.
Would it be wrong of me to assume Labor’s praying for exactly that?
Peter @ 62,
It almost seems as though Nelson is determined to see just how low he can go in the polls and to see if, with a bit of effort, that he can get Labor’s 2PP figure over the 70% barrier.
I’ve got my money on him to be successful in both endeavors.
Ruawake’s scenario at 51 seems more and more plausible.
The Seven Stages of Greif:
Disbelief; denial; bargaining; guilt; anger; depression; acceptance.
The Seven Stages of Greif, Liberal Party Style:
Disbelief; denial; denial; denial; denial; denial; denial.
Sad to see the passing of John Button. A great Australian.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23505026-1702,00.html
This has got to be the longest “honeymoon” in history with no likelihood that it will be on the wane any time soon.
Nelson is doing a great job of keeping the Government “up to the plate” with the electorate demonstrating their appreciation in the polls.
Keep on doing what you are doing, Nelson. The Labor Party are very appreciative of your sterling efforts in this regard. What a selfless man.
PM Rudd (gee I like that term), seems to have been a big hit in the old dart.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23504709-2,00.html
Nelson is saying he won’t ’stop from what [he is] doing’ without recognising noone cares what he’s doing or if he stops doing it.
As for the honeymoon, supposedly Rudd has been on a honeymoon since December ‘06. Then we get people criticising the media for not scrutinising him enough… well the media is not terribly deep in their political analysis to start with, and secondly they’ve definitely done a fair amount of criticising. It’s not Rudd’s fault that it’s mostly petty criticism which will fail to grab the attention of the masses.
I think the story criticising Therese Rein’s fashion sense has to be the worst example of nit-picking I’ve seen in a while (not to mention predictably sexist… because she’s the wife of a world leader she should be mindful to always look her best?). I’m not even going to mention the ridiculous fuss made over that nothing salute which would’ve done barely more than elicit a yawn from the large majority of people.
John button deserves but would not have wanted a State funeral. Not forgotten!
Boy, the OO sure know how to grab your attention with a headline:
Climate change serious – beer affected
“BEER will be short supply, more expensive and may taste different as climate change affects barley production, a scientist says….”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23505712-12377,00.html
I suppose they think that no one was interested in the impact of climate change.
Fagin @ 65
Sounds like a Nirvana song
41
Crikey Whitey – use insults to make a point if you will but i dont think that contributes anything to this blog.
BB Nelson saw how inept the ALP were at dealing with health issues that is why he decided that he would run for the Liberal Party.
I am going to go to the Victorian State Council this week, i want to hear what Nelson has to say and i hope he does bring up the merger issue. I cannot see that a merger would make us anymore unpopular than we are right now with the electorate but this won’t last forever.
I think it’s silly to have 2 centre-right parties in Australian politics the bloody Canadians Conservatives moved to create 1 Party out of the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservative Party into the Canadian Conservative Party. Right now the Liberal brand is on the nose and the Nats are bordering on irrelevance, so what better time to make the structural changes necessary to get us back into the game. After all the Nats only polled 3% in today’s newspoll it’s time quite frankly for just 1 centre-right political party!
You mean that the Nat vote wasn’t understated…?
Nelson puts Rudd’s popularity down to an “extended honeymoon”. LOL, is not Nelson himself, new in the leader’s job, also on his own “honeymoon”?
Heaven help Nelson when his own honeymoon ends!
One can argue that rural communities are not included as much in polling and thus the right wing vote for both parties is perhaps 1 or 2% lower than as recorded as the Nats got what 5.5% of the vote in the 07 election but they only hold at the moment only 10 HoR seats out of 150 so it is debatable as to the level of their support.
I did have a personal collection with John button a long time ago. People like him make me proud to be Australian. He made some awfully big sacrifices for this country.
that’s be ‘connection’
sorry
If Rudd is on his honeymoon then why has Turnbull and his estranged partner Nelson been calling on Labor to deal with the indisciplined bastard child Inflation that the former government fathered, neglected and eventually disowned? Inflation has been a very naughty fellow and there are many who noted his increasingly bad behaviour for quite some time. They also say that Inflation’s parents John and Peter should have been dealt with him with a much firmer hand rather than encourage him to run amuck.
To Rudd’s credit he says that the problem child is now his responsibility. Can’t be fairer than that.
Steve at #71
I wonder if that is an example of this [from an interview with Rupert]:
“Rupert Murdoch says his entire empire is going green — while telling its audience to do the same — because it’s “simply good business.”
specifically this [direct quote of Rupert]:
“The more I’ve looked into it, the more I’ve been able to see what we can do, not just from an operations standpoint but by subtly introducing [the climate issue] into our content.”
Note the word “subtle” [?].
80
fred
Could be Fred. Quite frankly if running headlines such as:
Climate change serious – beer affected
makes tabloid readers sit up and take notice of Climate Change then I’m all for it. I thought that the OO headline was simply amusing but you have probably got to its origins.
Check out the last line for the undying love and respect between the Nats and the Libs.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/08/2211029.htm
Glen @ 73 –
I cannot see that a merger would make us anymore unpopular than we are right now with the electorate but this won’t last forever.
I couldn’t agree more, Glen. The sooner the Libs and Nats merge into the Pineapple Party the better off the country will be, IMHO.
A great starting point would be parachuting Springborg into McGuarans’s seat, or if time doesn’t permit, one of the other seats that are about to be vacated by terminally uninterested members and then handing him the opposition leadership. I’m sure he would do much better than Nelson in the PPM stakes. Why he might even be able to lock in double figures!
Glen
Just a question: the ALP left, if you look at the values in the policies, which you can do, are lucky to make it into the centre certainly on the economic axis – Labour are the 2nd party of the Right – they are Centre/Moderate Right and the LIberal party have obviously continuously moved to the Right economic, coming up extreme in IR, some people think complete privatisation of public universities,
etc – they have moved Right economic and socially
I do not think its honest to keep saying that the Liberals are centre right – they certainly were not in government
bird the ALP are and forever shall be known as the centre-left party of Australian politics, they might use a guise as being conservative fiscally but this is just a facade to become electable they do it not because they are but because they want to be elected plain and simple. The only thing that made WC extreme was ditching the no-disadvantage test how extreme honestly was that? Now i disagreed with that part of WC but if that is what made it extreme that’s not an apt description of the Liberals IR policy IMHO.
Bird with all due respects i beg to differ, Prime Minister Howard to the angst of many on the right delivered extra benefits for families and increased government payments either by select programs like the baby bonus or Family Tax benefits or by lump sum payments now many would view that type of ’socialism’ un-Liberal like but he did it.
The Liberal Party is Centre-Right after all we’ve got many moderates in the party at a federal level, Turnbull, Moylan, Petro, Hunt, Costello, these aren’t hard right fanatics that the left crows about that fill our ranks. For every hard right person in the Liberal Party there is a hard left person in the ALP. There is a reason why the ALP are centre-left and the Liberal Party is centre-right it’s because they traditionally fight for the middle ground and they are both though the ALP is more so willing to change their political mantra for political gain.
Glen
Interesting…I think that we are both half right – the centre is so much more to the right so I guess its how you look at it.
In reference to the IR stuff, I actually looked into that and it was extreme -90% of power to the boss, 10% to the employer if you look at it overall and really go into it. Alot was against human rights as well – I would like to give you a copy of the Senate Submission by our top 150 labour market academics – and the words extreme and radical are used throughout the document and against ILO – if you like I can email you a copy of this – I have a friend who is a top IR person who contributed to it.
Mike Steketee wrote an interesting article, which I agree with, which outlines that Labor are where the Liberal party used to be in the 1980’s – yes, Howard through alot of money at mostly middle class welfare, but most people, including people like Dennis Shanahan, (i heard on radio) said that we have been taken thru a milder version of belated Thatcherism – basically paring down the social democratic structures except medicare which they tried to pull down the universiality of it.
The non-labor parties need to figure out if they want to be a “conservative” party or a “liberal” party.
I am sure when the Borg speaks of a single “conservative” party he means The Libs/Nats/One Nation/Family First – all combining into a super non-labor party.
If they can consolidate this “right of centre” alliance they would probably have a base primary vote of about 40%. Not great because very few preferences would flow their way – but a start to build on.
Rudd raising the Republic is just to create angst within the LNP and distract them mid-term.
Seems like the whole population has turned off and not listening. The election is over, the fun had and they now observe their PM being here and there without paying too close attention to actually what is going on. Nelson and Co obviously don’t even rate minor interest.
Kina
I think any Australian PM visiting the UK will be asked the “Republic” question. I think Call me Brendan has raised the issue to shore up his leadership against former ARM guru Malcolm AllBull.
Kina, did Rudd really raise the Republic, or was it raised by ‘reporters’ looking for a headline/rebuplicgate story ahead of his meeting with the Queen?
Either way, now that it has been raised he does seem to be upping the stakes on it, perhaps with the intention of causing discomfort to the opposition. It seems to me that the current opposition leans even more to monarchy that it did under Howard. Unfortunately, that doesn’t bode well for a referendum anytime soon.
The Opposition/Media have tried all sorts of things – PM too close to China, trip too long, Japan, salute, Therese’s dress sense, Therese too fat, problems with the PM’s speeches & etc. All of which have been played over and over on talk back radio. Also Brendan undertaking his “listening “tour to show that he cares for the everyday Australian, supposedly unlike the PM who is “apparently” high flying on a world trip at tax payer expense.
Anything but the important issues and a proper journalist analysis.
Still Rudd gets record Preferred PM ratings and a devastating 59-41 2PP. The 2PP has been hovering in this area since January and therefore has stabilized for the time being. – Very bad news for the Opposition.
I see Shannahan was much more reflective and subdued in his commentary on Newspoll than his normal frantic and creative analysis. Perhaps this is a good sign. But the Opposition Leader still does not “get it”.
The tactics employed have been not only foolish, but banal; and misleading to the Public.
It is pleasing to see that the voters can see through these tactics and perhaps we can see a maturing in the electorate. Certainly the electorate was asleep during much of the Howard years.
An awakening/maturing of the electorate can only make for better governance.
Vale John Button.
Just before last year’s AFL Grand Final he wrote this short article in The Age about his other great passion in life – the Geelong Football Club:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/festival-for-the-fringe-of-geelong/2007/09/27/1190486478709.html?page=2
” … In the 1970s I developed my own escapist techniques, drawing ovals on the blotting paper in the Senate and re-arranging players on the field before each match. But there were never enough good players to go round. I wrote to coaches, making suggestions. John Devine and Tom Hafey, both gentlemen, replied graciously …”
cheers,
91 Doug
“The tactics employed have been not only foolish, but banal; and misleading to the Public.
It is pleasing to see that the voters can see through these tactics and perhaps we can see a maturing in the electorate. Certainly the electorate was asleep during much of the Howard years.
An awakening/maturing of the electorate can only make for better governance.”
hear hear
Can anyone comment on the entrance scores required for journalism?
Well Nelson has let the cat out of the bag as to why Newscorp has been cut out of the budget loop and should be banned from the budget lockup itself this year. Their place could be taken by bloggers and media who normally don’t get the inside running at budget time.
Glen Milne’s budget strategy is in play and Nelson seems to think that the Newscorp budget bashing is going to turn his fortunes around. The old Budget bounce theory reincarnated.
QUESTION:
Your preferred Prime Minister rating has slipped back to nine per cent. What do you put that down to?
DR NELSON:
Well I just leave it to the commentators to comment on the polls. We’re just over four months from the election last year, I’m very much focused on what’s concerning everyday Australians, holding the Government to account on a number of things that it’s already not delivering on in a climate where interest rates, groceries and petrol are all on the up.
At this stage at the front of my mind is the concerns of everyday Australians. Can you feed, clothe and house your children? Can you put petrol in your car? And can you afford your groceries? And I think Australia at the moment has made the decision that it did last year and I’m just getting on with the job.
QUESTION:
You want to Prime Minister, how are you going to turn that polling around?
DR NELSON:
You watch.
QUESTION:
You’ve been in a listening tour for the past couple of weeks and your visit to Launceston is part of that but do today’s opinion polls show voters aren’t listening to you?
DR NELSON:
It’s just over four months since there was an election last year and most Australians having chosen a new government expect the government to get on with it. My focus is very much on standing up for the interests and ideas and aspirations of everyday Australians and in those four months there has been at least two official interest rate rises, increases in petrol and grocery prices.
Australians are funding it much more challenging in day to day life and my objective is to hold the Government to account, to develop alternative policies for Australia which are inspiring and attractive. We’ve already commenced that process and I heard some commentary from the chief executive of Newspoll which I thought was pretty much on the money.
http://www.liberal.org.au/info/news/detail/20080408_NelsonDoorstopLauncestonJohnButtonOlympictorchrelay.php
Glen
The difference between Labor and Liberal is who has control. Centralist have control of the labor party, after many years of defeat. The right wing nutters have control of the Liberal party and are not willing to give it up, unfortunately that won’t change until there is many years of defeat.
The first step is to get over blaming the left for the perception and face the reality.
Steve,
Following on from your quote, it’s not hard to see why Nelson is on 9%. Most of that interview was gobble de gook.
http://www.liberal.org.au/info/news/detail/20080408_NelsonDoorstopLauncestonJohnButtonOlympictorchrelay.php
Two thoughts.
First, many people see in others what they want to see, and this happens more at some points in the political cycle than at others. At such times, a person like Mr Rudd can come to the fore: bright, publicly polite, connected with the electorate, the perfect canvas on which people looking for change can project their own hopes. Frontal attack in such a case never works, because it’s ultimately an attack on people’s deep desires: for much of last year, the government behaved like narky parents who couldn’t stand their daughter’s new boyfriend, and by their complaints drove her more and more into his arms.
Dr Nelson, in some ways, is another blank canvas: if he had become leader of the opposition at a time when people were looking for change – think 1982, for example – he might well have resonated well. His problem is that people aren’t looking for change at the moment, and likely won’t be for some time. So his style of leadership isn’t working, and probably never will – he’ll be gone before the cycle goes around. But nobody really knows how to deal with a new PM who doesn’t immediately foul things up, or see the economy go really bad.
Secondly, note how Mr Rudd goes out of his way to avoid making enemies – a major contrast not only with Mr Howard, but also Mr Keating, who seemed to revel in how many people he could offend. Some of my Labor-leaning friends used to find Mr Keating’s outbursts exhilarating. Maybe in some eyes they were, but they were also self-indulgent, and tilled the soil for Howardism and Hansonism. Leadership is ultimately not just about being dogmatic and noisy, but about gaining and keeping followers. One of Mr Hawke’s great strengths as a PM was that there was really no segment of society which could rightly feel that he just wasn’t interested in them – in great contrast to Messrs Keating in Howard. Mr Rudd to date is displaying this same trait of Mr Hawke’s, and in the long run that could make him very difficult to defeat.
Yeah, Tasmania contains most of the country’s manufacturing industry, most of the coal and iron ore mines, the engine driving the Australian economy.
Tasmania has a GDP smaller than Brisbane city council. Critically important to the nation’s future. What abject nonsense.
Just which parallel universe is this clown on.
Refreshing to see the republic debate back in the news. Wonder when Brendan Nelson will embrace the will of the people and not try obstruction like John wHoward. The Australian Republican Movement is alive and well.
I did like this exchange:
NELSON: …I’ve never heard somebody say to me, Brendan, my life’s going to be so much more easier when Australia becomes a republic.
WOOLEY:
I could say that to you, Brendan my life is going to be so much easier when Australia becomes a republic…
Nelson had used the line earlier in the day (I assume – there’s no times on the transcripts – if it was later, he’s told a porky) in an interview on the ABC. I think he’d been intending to make it a standard line when questioned on the republic. It will be interesting to see if Wooley has killed it dead.
Zoom at 100,
Yeah, my life became slightly easier once the Pacific Solution was put in place. And then of course when marriage was defined as between man and a woman in the Marriage Act, it ebcame even easier. As if that wasn’t enough, when we helped invade Iraq, it bacame so much easier I couldn’t believe it.
Nelson will be exposed as a little bit silly if he tries to push the idea that policy serves only to improve people’s lives. Like workchoices improved epople lives I suppose.
99 -
‘will of the people’ – ah hang on a sec
On November 6, 1999, the majority of Australians roughly 55% voted to keep the Constitutional Monarchy in place. That’s the will of the people!
The Republic debate is a dead issue, nobody gives a toss about it we voted against it convincingly in 1999! The simple fact of the matter is why change a system of governance that has been a success for over 100 years? You’d have to have rocks in your head to change it!
Canada have the same system as us and yet they dont have any academics and cultural elitists wanting a Republic for Canada!
Those clowns in the ARM are a joke, they make up a flag and can’t tell you what everything on it means and they dont have a clue how their ‘Republic’ would actually work let alone agree on a preferred model.
Put simply it’s a waste of money, we already have a defacto Australian head of state, and the system ain’t broke.
Nuff said!
102 On November 6, 1999, the majority of Australians roughly 55% voted to keep the Constitutional Monarchy in place. That’s the will of the people!
That’s the will of JWH recorded there.
Scorpio @ 98 – Proves how farsighted Brendan is, because Tasmania will indeed become “critically important to the nation’s future” once I move there in a year or two.
Steve im sorry but did only John Howard vote?
Don’t misrepresent the facts. We all voted against a Republic a clear majority 55% that is the will of the Australian people. You bleeding heart left wingers can’t hack it that a Republic was so roundly rejected!
Glen
So you won’t mind a simple question being put, republic or monarchy. Last time Howard got to split the republic vote, I bet under labor it won’t be that way.
It would all be good fun for labor, a issue to wedge the Liberal party with, chances of it happening; pretty good. But the way things are going they are not going to need a wedge issue in the first term are they, so I guess it will not be high on Rudd’s agenda.
105 Glen I didn’t vote against it. I was robbed by a rigged constitutional convention.
charles @ 106,
What is the point of putting the question in any way other than as an amendment to the Constitution? None, because that’s the only way to amend the Constitution.
I voted yes in 1999, but I won’t vote for a directly elected President, because that would be a worse system than our current one.
The question was put in 1999 about whether we wanted a Republic with the minimalist model that’s simple enough Charles. There is no point opting for a Republic without knowing what system you’d have it’s like taking a leap into the dark and clonking your head into the door.
Howard didn’t split the Republican vote the Republicans split themselves if you can remember.
steve @ 107,
That’s rubbish, with all due respect. Nowhere near your usual standard.
JWH is many things, but he’s not a hypnotist.
There’ll never be a Republic as long as people keep fretting over 1999, rather than working out a way to get the yes vote up next time.
109 Obviously the model was too faulty to attract support, much like most things the Liberals cooked up.
steve,
The issue was the “direct election Republicans” allowing themselves to forget the real reason we want a Republic, which is to get an Australian head of state.
112 That is one view Dyno among many.
Glen
Your understanding of the world is so simplistic as to approach uselessness.
Why such the vehement denial of public debate?
I’m not denying your right to oppose the move to becoming a republic, but it’s hardly the black and white issue you’ve painted.
The reality is that the issue is complex and there is no doubt there are rights and wrong on each side, but if they were as overwhelming as you make out, then there wouldn’t be a debate at all.
You seem to have a consistent problem with negotiating that grey world that the rest of us seem to live in. That comment about 55% being a clear majority that seems to mean that no further debate can be entered in to is DEFINITELY going to come back and bite you.
Hush with your Tassie bashing. To be honest we do not care of your misguided views about Tasmania. It helps keep the unworthy out. We know deep down you are jealous!!!!
115 Scotty, I see Possum is getting married and heading down your way for a while.
Glen
do you have Minchin’s or Turnbull’s poster on your bedroom wall…or both?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/one-wedding-and-a-funeral/2008/03/13/1205126107120.html
“Minchin, giving the warm-up address, made what he considered a light-hearted reference to being back at the same venue where a decade before, at the Constitutional Convention, the conservatives suckered the republicans into accepting a dud model that scuppered the republic.
According to those present, Turnbull, who headed the republic push all those years ago, walked out.”
Tool; take your pick from the three….
Glen
Well we will see when the simple question, republic or monarchy is put.
114
onimod – if it is a waste of money, if we already have an Australian as defacto head of state and if the system we already have…explain to me why we need a Republic?? I call that black and white, either you change the system because the system you already have has failed or you dont change it because it is near-perfect!
We need a Republic like a person needs a hole in their head as far as im concerned!
119 What you forget Glen is times have changed and your side is now the minority of Australian thought.
steve
What do you mean by for a while?
121 Scotty ,he’s looking for food and wine places in Tassie.
http://possumcomitatus.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/possums-getting-married/
Glen – two points on monarchy.
For 33 years I served HM Queen Elizabeth II and her heirs and successors according to law. Not once in all the oaths of allegiance I gave or took as one of her officers and gentlemen was the word “Australia” ever mentioned.
Second, I wonder if you’d be quite as comfortable with the status quo if Edward VIII had not fallen for Wallace Simpson and Britain had gone into WW2 with a Nazi infatuated king on the throne. But this is probably a moot point because the status quo would very likely be quite different. We probably wouldn’t now be concerned with questions of monarchy but with the current Fuehrer’s latest dictates. Both we and the Royal Family should be eternally grateful that a born republican saved us and it from disaster!
Should Australia become a republic?
YES or NO ?
Please mark the appropriate box.
http://news.smh.com.au/libs-try-to-take-focus-off-bad-polls/20080408-24mg.html
I just find this incredible. Don’t they ever learn. If I was a Lib supporter, I think by now I would have torn all my hair out and would be starting to pull my fingernails out too.
Why can’t they just take their medicine, dished out clearly and soundly by the electorate on November 24th., lay low for a while, get their bearings, complete necessary restructuring and once their confidence returns, get back into the fray with a competent set of policies that are acceptable to the majority of the population.
The sort of nonsense that they are continuing to come out with will only dig them so far into the hole that they will never be able to climb out.
Glen
Why did we need an apology?
Why did we need by be one of the states that signed the Kyoto agreement ( there where solid economic reasons also)?
Why do we need to be a republic?
Work it out Glen and you will be on your way to understanding why English has a word for politics and another for economics.
From an economic point of view, the queen is a bargain.
When the simple question is put you will be voting for the queen, I will be voting for a republic ( we need to stand on our own two feet), the interesting question is, will it get a majority of the vote and a majority of the states, the rest doesn’t matter.
Scorpio, I think it is Nelson who is having an extended honeymoon just wait till the budget will Nelson lamely following the Poison Dwarf formula for success and these Newspoll figures will look flattering.
fred @ 124,
This way of putting the question makes for an interesting discussion but is a complete non-event if you actually want the Constitution changed, as distinct from just making a point about our current system
Rudd should stuff the republic and make himself the monarchy. With his current popularity I think there is a fair chance that he could pull it off. Either that or get Prince Harry to be king as he likes a drink (except that is bad nowadays isn’t it).
More seriously, by raising the republic, Rudd has done a classic wedge on the other side of the house. Turnbull is clearly for it (who shares some of the blame for the 1999 failure on the republic side) but his party is not. It is not going to help his chances. Nelson is flotsam on the issue but his current position is against as it helps his leadership. Bishop is clearly a morachist and looks the part to looking like a 50’s housewife. Howard’s pot plants on the backbench are all monarchists and are going to block Turnbull rise to the top of the mound that is the Liberal party at the moment as long as the Republic is a major issue. Therefore, it is in Rudd’s interest to drag it out as long as possible.
PS. Pot Plants like it when the sun shines on them and they get watered sometimes. They don’t like the dark or being p*ssed on. Other than that it, they mostly just sit there. Much like a backbencher….
Scorpio @ 125 – OMG, according to Mitch Fifield, Rudd took off 3 more days over Christmas-New Year than he said he would on Nov 29th. The unprincipled bounder!! Horse whipping is far too good for him!! We can’t let such slackness go unpunished. Obviously, the G-G will have to dissolve parliament asap and call another election.
We are indeed fortunate that the Libs are on the ball exposing such high crimes.
Nelson will undoubtedly be bereft at having to abandon his fabulously successful listening tour to take the reins as the caretaker PM, but as the last Lib leader to be placed in that position often told us: “life wasn’t meant to be easy.”
MayoFeral Says:
If the question is put before the girl who took over dies I think the outcome would be questionable; our of respect; you really do have to admire her; afterwards I think it would be a landslide for the republic.
But I don’t think that will play into Rudds calculation, it is a divisive issue for the Liberal party, it is not for Labor. I think he will play that card when the polls get a lot closer than they are now, I really don’t expect it for the first and perhaps not the second term, by the third the Liberals may have got their act together and something will be needed. seven years is a long time.
129 BSF, the issue will liven up Glen’s Victorian Liberal Council meeting on the weekend if nothing else.
Glen
I already knew what you opinion was.
Why are you so emotionally invested when you use the presentation of a simple factual intellectual question?
Again; if it was a black and white question, there’d be little need for your emotionally laden responses, would there?
Don’t run away from the complexity – debate it. You’ll have a much better chance of converting followers if you don’t treat them like idiots.
Pass the note on to Nelson.
And the same question again – Turnbull or Minchin?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/one-wedding-and-a-funeral/2008/03/13/1205126107120.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Glen. As Ms Hansen would have said. Please explain.
The reason why the Republican referendum did not get up was due to the group who wanted the President elected by direct vote and the monarchists used this in their opposition by saying if you want to vote for the president vote No. They never at any stage used the line if you want to retain the monarchy vote no. So to say 55% voted against the proposition is playing with figures as we will never know how many of those that wanted a republic by direct voting who voted no because they were against the ARM’s model (which IMHO should have been the only model to consider). If the proportion of this group was as high as 10% (and it may well have been) it could be said that 55% of the population was in favour of a Republic albeit attaining one by different methods.
The whole Constitutional Convention was a waste of time in 1999. The model was announced beforehand, ram through by the ARM and then not acceptable to the public. And who was heading the ARM at the time: Turnbull. He blamed Howard at the time for the failure but clearly he and his organisation must have shared the blame. In fact, the one thing I don’t like about the idea of a republic is the ARM.
A semi-elected model like the Irish would have been a better bet.
“Mr Hunt told a Young Liberals meeting..”
A ‘room full of young liberals’ sounds like a scene from a horror movie.
When the LNP looks like it might get its act together and seriously considering Turnbull out will come the Republic debate in 3D. Love to see the party room debate between Minchin and Turnbull on it. See the self-immolation of the Liberals.
Or Rudd raising the Nelson/Bishop/Minchin WorkChoices II will also create internal friction.
Then again released documents under FOI of any number of LNP dealing may create some unwanted headlines.
For example:
“Howard meets Honan: You be the judge whether he lied about it”
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/12/1060588384214.html
Ethanol timeline
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/12/1060588387787.html
AND wouldn’t you like to know what is blanked out in these documents released under FOI.
http://www.smh.com.au/media/2003/08/12/1060588385678.html
I would love to know what followed this “The meeting focussed on two issues..blank blank …and the Australian Ethanol Industry. Mr Honan commented…big lots of blanks follow.
Wonder what was so secret about the issue discussed?
Would a new FOI request achieve a less censored output?
So Glen, when we have a vote on an issue involving change that means we can no longer have a vote on that same issue in the future? That doesn’t make sense to me, given that people can change their minds and circumstances can change over time. Please explain.
Don’t know about any one else. I have reached my decision.
I imagine the Beijing Olympic Opening Ceremony will be amazing.
I will neither watch nor record it. Despite my earlier wish to have a machine, to do exactly that. Which is in my possession.
Despite that, I can do no other.
I have no wish to reward China, or the advertisers, for the likely failure of my own country to uphold the principle of human rights. I dislike a passive position.
My tiny boycott.
Gary a vote on something as important as your system of governance should be voted on as little as possible give it another 5-10 years and have another vote…nothing will change as you Republicans can’t agree on a model and will to a Clinton in ensuring the other side losses thereby cutting off your nose despite your face.
Crikey, at least it seems we will protect these people. I know it’s small scale compared to Tibet but at least it’s something.
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/article.aspx?id=226466
“Iraqis who could be at risk because they worked for Australian forces in Iraq, are to be offered permanent residency in Australia. ”
‘A number of coalition interpreters have been kidnapped, tortured or killed since the Iraq war began, as a result Cabinet decided there was a moral obligation to protect those who’ve worked for our troops and the Australian embassy in Baghdad.”
“Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, who briefed US counterpart George W. Bush on Australia’s planned withdrawal last week, has insisted that the interpreters be looked after.”
So scaper, given your constant, albeit less then straightforward arguments for the creation of a “new third force”
You’re looking for a “new” conservative party to be created in QLD?… Indeed Federally?
One that I assume is more inclined to favor your “Great Scaper SimCity Plan”…
no doubt this will be the vehicle that you will use to push forward with your “vision”
Since nobody else is returning calls
According to the Canberra Times, it is doubtful that the Olympic Torch will even arrive in Australia. WTP.
Vera at 141. The Iraqis are and ever were in far greater danger than, say, the Tibetans. The Tibetans are in a very different position. Despite the anguish of their situation, I cannot see that they are in danger of being murdered each and every day, as are the Iraqis. Tibet is so much different. Another issue, entirely. Hardly acceptable, but a different level.
I was ever dismayed that the Howard Government prevented ‘refugees’ from Iraq, being allowed into Australia. It is difficult to identify the weirdest of the Howard Government positions, but that is one.
It is not before time that an Australian PM (Rudd) recognises their plight. And is prepared to redress it.
AWB
Do not disagree, Classified.
AWB rates as massively weird. Distasteful as it is to work through the calculations of the Howard Government, on the one hand aligned with the overthrow of the supposed regime and supporting it with the other.
I can see where they were going on this, self interest all the way. Totally disgusting.
Their equal crime was always that they would refuse entry to fleeing Iraqis, condemning them as ‘illegals’.
The illogic still spins my head.
A boycott will endanger a peaceful solution for Tibet
Malcolm Fraser
IN RECENT weeks, and especially around the time of Australia’s Olympic swimming trials, many people have been urging a boycott, in whole or in part, of the Beijing Olympics. Since I was involved in an attempted boycott of the Moscow Olympics, I want to say why a boycott or any disturbance of the Beijing Olympics would be unfortunate and counter-productive.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/boycott-will-endanger-peaceful-tibet-solution/2008/04/08/1207420388182.html
Without reading that article, Kina, my personal boycott is my way. It will not hurt anyone, athletes included, as far as I can see. The numerical viewing audience, if the estimates are in any way reliable, may make a statement.
Malcolm Fraser say this:
“It is worth noting that the Dalai Lama has opposed a boycott of the Games. The danger, of course, is that demonstrations for a boycott will inflame the situation. It will make it harder to establish negotiations in a meaningful way and will do nothing to resolve the question between China and Tibet. It would also delay the possibility of negotiations about an agreed future as part of China. Whatever is done now should contribute to an ultimately peaceful, negotiated solution.”
China should not have gotten the Olympics in the first place.
My real concern is that if protests, protesters and boycotts ruin the Olympics for China they will most certainly crack-down like they never have before and, persecute these people in pure revenge and, also to make sure they can never speak up on the international scene again.
Whilst it might feel emotionally satisfying for me to have people protest and boycott – it is at the expense of Tibetans receiving additional suffering and in the end even less likelihood of freedom(s).
Yes I understand Crikey.
The easy answer is …
Yes and no
Yes = Wonder why we we did such a thing which is obviously so morally bankrupt
No = we did consider it, but didn’t care
And this is what China is tells its own people:
Dalai’s brag about “peace”, “non-violence” is nothing but lie
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/08/content_7941607.htm
And look at this. As What the papers were about to say.
Michelle Grattan, Mary-Anne Toy and Misha Schubert April 9, 2008
Latest related coverage
‘Rudd heads into storm over Tibet
KEVIN Rudd has become entangled in the international row over China and human rights abuses, with Beijing lodging a formal complaint to Australia about the Prime Minister’s comments on Tibet before his arrival in China today.
The flare-up came as China faced a growing conundrum over pro-Tibet protests disrupting the Olympic torch relay, with top Olympic officials suggesting the remaining international legs of the relay, including Australia’s, may be abandoned’.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/rudd-faces-tibet-row/2008/04/08/1207420390673.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Gee, Classified @ #142, how did you get all that out of #34?
I thought it was just someone coming home after a late night at the Rugby Club.
Been that expressive myself on a few occasions.
Wiser to have ignored that, Fulvio. 34/142. Observed, but that is it.
Oh, OK. Noted, Crikey.
Observation…feedreader and “well, I’d rather not say”
Lets put it down to a lucky guess
Glen says:
it’s like taking a leap into the dark and clonking your head into the door
Is that what happened to you Glen?
Now that Rudd’s been criticized for being too soft on China, it won’t be long before the same critics are slamming him for being too heavy-handed. Meanwhile, the polls will continue to … go nowhere.
If there is one thing the torch relay has shown, it is how naive the Chinese can still be sometimes. What on earth did they expect? Even if Tibet had not blown up earlier in the year, there was still going to have been protest and running the torch around the world would just highlight them.
I’ve been involved with the Fr*e T*b*t movement for a long time and dearly want to see the end of Chinese occupation, though I doubt it’ll happen in my lifetime.
However, we have been a part to arguably worse crimes in Iraq these past 5 years. We each can have only, at best, a very, very tiny influence on China, but a much larger one on our government on Iraq (and Afghanistan too). We really need to clean up our act before we go lecturing others. And that is something I never imagined I would have to say about my country, especially in relation to a communist dictatorship!
PS: I suggest caution on discussing T*b*t as it can attract attention from rabid posters that I’ve seen ruin other forums.
Glen re: your Shanahan take on the polls. If the conservatives continue to display denial like yours, it’s great news for Labor, for at least a few terms of government. Re: the republic, as usual you present superficial arguments worthy of Pauline Hanson. Anyone with half a brain knows that the proposition (president elected by parliament) was cooked up to split the republican vote. A two-part question, one on whether republic or not and the second on the model would have seen the republic question succeed.
Couldnt we get a SENSIBLE torie to debate here??
Mayo, who is this Chinese dictator? Surely not the one elected by the party from time to time? China is not a dictatorship.
China is a repressive, one party state and it’s easy to characterise it in terms if other regimes but a dictatorship it is not.
161
Maybe we can each take turns for a few days at a time?
The problem is that real preogression might occur and then we’d be back to deabating the widening gap between what they are doing, and what they should be doing.
To their favour though, there does seem to be around 35-40% of the population that’s rusted on and will seemingly take whatever they’re served up. It’s amusing to me that they don’t want Nelson, his replacement isn’t clear (popularly) and they don’t have a policy (other than workchoices)….what are those 35% prepared to vote for?
“Non-labour” pretty much sums it up, in all it’s intellectual capacity.
140 – “Glen Says: Gary a vote on something as important as your system of governance should be voted on as little as possible …….” Why? Who made this decision and on what grounds?
Glen, its been 10 years almost since the last vote. You’re just scared the vote for a republic will succeed, that’s your problem.
I agree with Glenn
The monarchy has offered us stability simply because of the vote required to change it, ie, a majority of the votes in a majority of the states.
We need the same in our government elections to promote stability and encourage long term policies and governments without the pork barrelling.
I’m sure Glenn and the liberals would agree to the next federal election being on his terms, ie labor stays in unless the libs get a majority of the votes in a majority of the states.
State elections would work on similar lines, a majority of the votes in a majority of the divisions, ie divide each state up into divisions containing 6 or 7 electorates each.
166 Rod – you forgot the most important aspect of all of this. Because any election is an important part of “your system of governance” the party that wins should be allowed to remain in power for a good 10 years before another election is necessary, afterall people need time to change their minds and while it aint broke let’s not tamper with it.
Good news about Silvio Berlusconi set to get back into power in Italy.
In one of his speeches in Naples he said;
“Rest assured we will win this Sunday and Monday because we’re not assholes”
He referred to anybody voting for the centre-left as assholes last week and he’s 5-10 points ahead of the Left in opinion polls.
Ahhh Italian politics so amusing!
Maybe Lord Nelson could call anybody who voted Labor assholes, he’ll they don’t look like changing their minds for awhile and it couldn’t really hurt his 9% PPM rating either lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6EM4V4Xs00
REPUBLIC
I Support a Republic but I voted against the modelbecause it was fundamentally flawed IMHO.
Its not a simple yes orno. Maybe Preferential vote on a number ofoptions is best.
Glen #85:
Are you kidding? Costello, moderate? LOL
Costello may have one or two “moderate” inclinations on peripheral issues such as reconciliation and the republic. But on his core policy beliefs, the ones that affect millions of people as they go about their day-to-day lives, he is anything but a “moderate”. On Industrial Relations, Costello is a zealot, extremist, radical, ideologue, and any other number of descriptors you could use.
His advocacy of Work”Choices” including his shameful determination to actually extend same, stink of straight-out tory class divisiveness, aimed at splitting society into stratas of a wealthy upper class, and hordes of miserable working poor.
For a glimpse of the hopeless degraded desperate working poverty in which people are left to languish for decades, or even whole lifetimes, I dare tories and pro-WorkChoices Liberal conservatives to read the following:
Down and Out in London and Paris by George Orwell
http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/Down_and_Out_in_Paris_and_London/english/e_dopl
After you have read it (only takes about an hour), tell us how you manage to look your fellow Australians in the eye as you advocate a Master-and-Servant type situation here in this country with your lowdown and loathsome SerfChoices.
Rx,
Berlusconi said something of the Left that i agree with and that has resonance in Australia.
Silvio said “The Left says it loves the poor. So it does. The Left loves the poor so much it creates more of them every time it gets into power”.
The only thing wrong with Workchoices was scrapping the no-disadvantage test apart from that it was a sound piece of legislation and assisted in creating more jobs for the lower-middle class something Rudd’s IR policy won’t do!
Question Rx, would the ‘miserable’ poor rather be working or unemployed and living off welfare??
Gary @ 167
Good point on the ten years, the last two regimes, Hawkeating and Howardowner have gone past ten years yet both had the unneccesary distractions and disruptions of elections during that time.
So it’s Workchoices or high unemployment? As with the Australian voters, I’m yet to be convinced of this argument. Show me the proof Glen.
What do you reckon Glen, elections every ten years?
Italy’s democratic system is a basket case. Who could take that seriously and anything they have to say.
Glen, you didn’t read it, huh?
Before you come forth with questions back at me, I suggest (again) you read the piece to which I pointed. You can then ruminate on the “dignity” of work under Work”Choices”-type arrangements (Orwell’s Parisian experience is particularly instructive). Look into the plight of those who “win” the race the bottom.
And as you mentioned “welfare”, for an insight into the type of “welfare” idealised by tories, (ie no involvement by the state, but left wholly to charities, with their flophouses and soup kitchens), read his London experiences, and those of teeming others, as desperate “welfare recipients”.
You would be hoping (if you have any conscience – doubtful for a tory) that you yourself, your family, or anyone you care about never fall through the cracks in your tory idealised systems of work and welfare.
Bah im talking about constitutional changes you shouldn’t vote on something as critical as your system of governance every year as the clowns in the ARM want!
It is a serious thing to go and swap a Constitutional Monarchy for a Republic Gary!
Well Gary how high was unemployment under the Coalition ummm just 4%!!
How high under Labor ummm 10% you be the judge.
These turkeys will never get back into government as long as they keep coming up with this sort of crap:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/09/2211830.htm?section=justin
Why is this crap Steve K??
You might not like it but she Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is our Head of State and for him not to bow as is protocol does show disrespect and a complete and utter lack of diplomatic nous.
It’s not enough that he salutes Bush but he wont show any respect for our Queen?
Rod, Gary, it went right over the top I’m afraid.
179
Glen
Crap
179
Glen
You can’t be serious. Maybe Rudd should have given the wave to Lizzy instead of Bush. To suggest that Rudd shows “..complete and utter lack of diplomatic nous…” is simply laughable. When you have a serious ccomment to make let me know:
fwiw@hotmail.com
Did Rudd bow to the Dalai Lama? Yes, and the Dalai Lama is not our Head of state.
Did Rudd salute a right wing world leader? Yes, and W isn’t our leader.
Steve K you have little or no knowledge of political protocol if you don’t know that you are whoever regardless of your position, supposed to bow before the Queen.
Rudd is our Prime Minister he’s a Republican but that doesn’t mean you have to disrespect our Head of State!
Glen, Whilst your side is getting outraged about whether Rudd did or didn’t bow at all or maybe bowed but not far enough the government is getting on with the serious business of running the country and improving the lot of each and everyone of us – even you.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23511366-12377,00.html
Enjoy
177 Glen – “Well Gary how high was unemployment under the Coalition ummm just 4%!! How high under Labor ummm 10% you be the judge.” How does this prove Workchoices brought low unemployment? It was only in for the last 2 years and unemployment was in the 4’s before that. You have no proof do you?
What about 10 years for elections Glen? (He asks once again, not expecting a reply.)
Ha what a joke Steve K this is another stupid Committee another bit of bureaucracy to mask the fact the Rudd Government is doing virtually nothing right at the moment.
Rudd can appoint as many taskforces/committees/quangos he wants but they’ll end up being a waste of money like the rest of the one’s he’s already set up not to mention the 100s of inquires he’s already set up.
When Rudd actually does something instead of setting up an inquiry then talk to me about the ALP’s ‘action’ in Government!
Gary since no democratic country holds elections every 10 years i don’t think it is a valid topic for discussion it would never happen!
Glen – if you think that headlines like this:
Rudd didn’t respect the Queen enough: Brandis
is good for your party then you need to get used to eternal opposition – well, until your party dies off altogether.
The Libs and their supporters (Glen’s a great example) only know one thing at the moment – concentrate and trivialities and play the man. Forget policy, forget about important issues just keep highlighting that nasty Kevin Rudd’s “real character”. They will never learn.
She’s just another person. Get over yourself.
ShowsOn you have just shown yourself to be a fool, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is our Head of State show some respect will you!
Gary what are Rudd’s policies now?
HA~
So Glen, you’d much rather a government that didn’t think about what it was going to do but rather make decisions on the run without taking into account costings and implications for their actions. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Didn’t we just have a government that did that, particularly around election times. The people saw through this eventually Glen and rejected this approach and rightly so.
Where is Mr. Swan and his inflation genie?
191 Glen – feel free to look the policies up on the ALP site Glen.
192
Gary Bruce – they (ALP) did that when they signed up to Kyoto and when they signed up to emissions targets without knowing the full extent of the impact to our economy!
Gee that’s a clever comment John? How about he’s doing his job and preparing the budget like you Libs keep harping on about.
Global warming will go the way of global cooling!
Only 30 years ago scientists were predicting a global ice age but in those following 30 years they’ve now said we’re going to have global warming…hmmm
Thankgod for level headed people like Don Atkins.
Tell me again Glen why it is good government to make decisions on the run and acting without going into to why’s and wherefor’s of that decision beforehand.
Glen who is Don Atkins?
Time to leave you two conservatives console one another. There’s much consoling to do.
Noooooooooooooo come back Gary!
You are an idiot, Glen. You can’t win arguments by misrepresentation and obfuscation, and neither can Don Aitkin. Why would a political scientist’s opinions on the veracity of global warming carry any weight? Try listening to some scientists who actually study the global climate, like the International Panel on Climate Change.
Don’t ask me Gary, ask Rudd and the ALP!
They’ve done it with Kyoto, done it with Emissions targets…
John sorry it’s Don Aitkins…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23509775-2702,00.html
Why ill tell you why because they political scientists look for evidence and proof and according to an high profile academic he sees big flaws in the assumption based computer modeling of global catastrophe from ‘global warming’!
189
Gary Bruce
It be surprised if Glen and his kind actually believe most of the crap they come out with. Deep down they are as happy as pigs in mud as the big problems on their radar amount to nothing more than bows and waves.
I’ve worked it out – we have an Today Tonight or A Current Affair producer in our midst.
This really is a pointless waste of Williams bandwidth.
What would a Political Scientist know about computer modelling of climate change??? Seriously. That’s like expecting an astrophysicist to present and argue a case to the International War Crimes tribunal about alleged genocide. Absolutely ridiculous!
Two questions:
1. To which constituency is Brandis appealing with his close biomechanical focus on Rudd’s greeting with the Queen? (Dame Pattie died in 95, so according to my calculations that leaves only Professor Flint and a room full of cranky Devonport Senior Citizens Club choristers.)
2. Given that the Fairfax press had psychologists and body language experts all over Wayne Carey’s interview on Denton, would the MSM consider laying out a technical biomechanical analysis of each of Rudd’s greetings with senior foreign officials and heads of state since his election? (According to a crude simulation I mocked up over lunch, Rudd did in fact dip his neck by a small amount (~ 0.25-0.35 degrees off the vertical) when shaking hands with Her Majesty.)
Glen @ 205 – May I suggest (and I will) that you step back and take a few deep breaths? From the way that comment was written, I could just about picture an irate conservative hyperventilating over the very idea of “global warming”!
Calm down.
That being said, any scientist worth their salt would look for evidence and proof – evidence and proof which could be objectively and reliably tested, to either prove or disprove the hypothesis/theory they’re testing. Myself, I don’t care how high or low their profile is, I’d be looking at their area of expertise. If this “Don Atkins” is a political scientist, for example (what you mention in 205, though not sure who you’re referring to), then I wouldn’t give much weight to any statements he makes on environmental science. Politics, yes.
If you could provide a link to some sort of profile of this Don Atkins, it’d be appreciated. I’d like to judge his background and expertise for myself. No commentary required, just a link will be fine (did a search and couldn’t find him myself).
The man Glen is referring to is known as Professor Don Aitkin, and he was previously the vice chancellor of Canberra University; he is described by ‘The Australian’ as a “historian and political scientist and a fellow of three learned societies”. Hear that? THREE learned societies!
Andos which learned societies?
Inner Westie
Flint would not be offended as he has often stated that the GG, not the Queen, is our head of state.
Actually was suprised that the Queen shook hands, and ungloved at that. But like the rest of the world leaders that Rudd has met she is probably grateful that she does not have to meet and greet the giggling fop and the fawning xenophobe anymore.
Academy of the Social Sciences, Australian College of Educators and the Australian Planning Institute.
Yep, a lot of experience in climate studies there.
First I’d like to join with others in giving my respects on the passing of John Button, a fine minister and a fine human being. Remaining decent didn’t stop him from being effective either. Here was a man who achieved genuine reform of industries without having to resort to crushing workers’ rights through draconian legislation. The architects of Workchoices could have learnt a lot from Button. Perhaps Howardistas would like to do a little research comparing productivity gains while Button was in office to those achieved by the previous government. I suspect they will find the task too unpleasant to attempt.
Second, as for the Republic, hurray! I had to laugh at the suggestion that it was “too soon” to raise again. I suppose they would prefer to wait for the next Liberal government? Or for Rudd’s popularity to fall within 50% of Nelson’s before the issue was debated? ROTFL
I also loved this bit:
“You might not like it but she Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is our Head of State and for him not to bow as is protocol does show disrespect and a complete and utter lack of diplomatic nous.”
There is the conservative mind displayed in all its weakness. So we have no choice but to accept and respect the Monarchy because its the way it is? There is a simple solution – change the head of state
No doubt that Rudd has balls:
Rudd repeats Tibet human rights concerns
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/09/2212108.htm?section=justin
“…in a speech delivered to university students in Beijing…Mr Rudd repeated his view that Australia is concerned about the situation…”
Quote from speech – “Australia, like most other countries, recognises China’s sovereignty over Tibet, but we also believe it is necessary to recognise there are significant human rights problems in Tibet,” Mr Rudd told the Beijing University students.
“The current situation in Tibet is of concern to Australians. We recognise the need for all parties to avoid silence and find a solution through dialogue.”
Speaking of Mr Button,
Look at this contemptible Opening Post from a lowlife Liberal (WARNING: offensive language)
http://groups.google.com/group/aus.politics/browse_thread/thread/0e1263d92be86cad/c6db30518a8e82c6#c6db30518a8e82c6
Andos maybe we’re missing something.
I don’t bother reading the Australian any more but I note the debate about Don Atkins, the retired non-expert on climate change. It isn’t just that he has no relevant technical qualificatiosn or research record – he’s already on record as a climate change denier/dillusionist. Check any sites that list the usual suspects in the CC denial industry and Atkins is there. And yes, it is an industry. A number of thme get paid for writing this tripe. This story just isn’t news! Same old misconstrued facts, spread by the same old sources. Same old Oz.
Glen @ 179
Sadly I can’t sit around reading blogs all day. Speaking for myself, and very likely a majority of Austrailans, I bow to no one, defacto Head of State or otherwise.
The monarchists try to fend off the inevitable by saying “well actually the GG is our Head of State”. So you Glen actually think that Queen Liz is H of S. Are you a monarchist? What happens when Queen Liz departs this earth – are you going to bow down to King Charlie and Queen Camilla?
GrannyAnny good point. All the ARM should do to win the referendum is fly Charles out here to speak for the Monarchy. Though if Rudd is smart (and he is) he won’t leave this to the ARM. They made it too easy for Howard last time.
Further on the climate change denial non-story, it often amuses me how many of the critics of CC work are overtly right-wing economists. They argue about the uncertainites of climate prediction (true) and then say we therefore shouldn’t change economic policy given that uncertainty. Yet the funny thing is, despite all the uncertainty, climate modelling is still far more reliable than any economic modelling!
Most climate models are fairly well calibrated now, and while not perfect, the biggest uncertainty in CC modelling comes from predicting the future human impacts and responses. By contrast, the last review of OECD economic forecasting I read pointed out grimly that the chance of economic modelling being more accurate than a simple trend projection dropped to less than 50% after less than 3 years! So here are these economists with almost no ability to make long range forecasts themselves arguing that we should ignore climate change modelling when making long term policy because of their own (far less reliable) economic models. Mathematically speaking, they are lemmings.
What’s that, John?
Andos, perhaps he has more qualifications then we are aware of.
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20070702-Liberal-Party-insider-throws-the-book-at-Howard.html
Liberal Party insider throws the book at carbon-loving Howard
By Irfan Yusuf, Crikey.com, 2 July 2007
Can you find any peer reviewed, scholarly articles that Don Aitkin has written analysing the effect of anthropogenic carbon emissions on the global climate and link to them here, please John?
Or any peer reviewed, scholarly articles that Don Aitkin has written about any aspect of climate change due to anthropogenic global warming? Any at all?
Lol, Rx, the source is Crikey. If I were in a spelling bee contest and they asked me to spell left and I spelt C.R.I. K. E. Y. they would acknowledge it as correct.
Yes John, and the writer has a Moslem sounding name too. Can’t possibly be true on that count alone.
Andos… I’ve done a quick google search and I can’t find anything which is not to say that it may not be there.
John of Melbourne
You dismiss Crikey because you say it is “left-wing”? (That might’ve once been the case but is not true now). Then visit the site of the book’s author (Guy Pearse):
http://www.guypearse.com/
From the site:
Well, John, that complete failure is surely enough evidence to take anything written by Professor Don Aitkin as gospel; pure and simple.
Nice work, keep it up.
Lol, Fulvio that funny
I think its not true because the writer has a lazy eye.
I dunno, but I can’t believe it’s April 2008, and you’re all still taking Glen’s bait as readily as ever. You’ll never win. Why bother to debate him?
So George Brandis the man who applied the ‘lying rodent’ sobriquet to JWH is still on the scene.
As a QLD Liberal he is part of an endangered species and therefore must be protected.
Would love to see George and Glen bowing to the ‘tampon’ (HRH King Charles) at some time in the future.
Ok, so one of those “Your Say” articles in the Oz has Don Aitkin saying that, for him, there are two “environmental problems of great significance” confronting us – water management and finding alternatives to oil-based energy, with global warming being a “distraction” in his opinion.
I think he’s just being contrarian there. Finding alternatives to oil-based energy should reduce carbon emissions, thus dealing with part of the cause of global warming, and while there may be more than one cause for water problems (population, perhaps), global warming would be one of them, so more effective water management should deal with part of the effects.
On the side, I’ve done searches on two academic databases (ProQuest and Science Direct) for articles by Don Aitkin. Two from ProQuest – “To Constitute a Nation: A Cultural History of Australia’s Consitution” and “What do vice-chancellors do?”. Nothing from Science Direct.
Andos, Glen referred to Don Aitkins.
I would class myself as an evironmentalist and I think we all are. I dislike pollution, littering and the destruction of forrests and other habitat where there isn’t a plan to rehabilitate the environment once it has been exploited for its wealth in a sensible and sustainable manner. Having said that I do not believe in global warming or better yet I do not believe in doomsday prophecies. What ever happened to global cooling?
RX – Crikey is still left leaning.
I am sure that your opinions are based on a thorough knowledge and understanding of the relevant scientific research on the issue, John.
Rx Says:
Two pollies I admire the most John Button and Fred Chaney. Does that make me a swinging voter?
The interesting thing is that those who wish for the impossible return to an economic past behave like this. In my view it display an inability to see the big picture. The fast that these people support the Liberal party probable highlights how little the Liberal party did in moving our economy into the 21 century.
John of Melbourne
The bias, one way or another, of Crikey is a matter of personal judgement. I suspect you would declare anything “left-leaning” if even parts of it do mesh with with your political views.
But the political leaning of Crikey is not the point. I linked to it as a site that reviewed a book that was written by a Liberal Party member.
In addition I linked to the site of the book’s author himself. Now, as he (Guy Pearse) is reported as a Liberal Party member, it would probably be foolish to dismiss him as “left-leaning” (though stranger things have happened, I suppose.)
Andos doomsdayers have been around since Adam was a boy and they’ll always be around.
Rx your right I shouldn’t just dismiss it off the cuff.
True, Guy Pearse may be left leaning, let us have broad church where all views are entertained.
Is Kevin Rudd insane?
First he upset our third largest trading partner USA, by pulling out of Iraq, while the USA did stuffed up Iraq, and is right to have no friends in Iraq, a little bit of support for a “friend” will ensure the same coutesy is given back to us in the future, while on the surface, the US is going to say that it does not matter, and toe the diplomatic line, inside they are likely to be upset.
He aslo upset our second largest trading partner Japan, by not visiting them
He now upset our biggest trading partner, by going over there and complaining about their human rights. There are better channels to show your concern, without making a big scene and upseting China
We might be heading for another recession we had to have
Fulvio is this acceptable?
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/090408_2.htm
Charles At #238
What got me about that Opening Post was not so much the writer’s hankering for an impossible pre-Button past, but the poisonous malice with which he attacked the recently-deceased. Talk about low behaviour!
I’m thinking the writer does his Liberal side a disservice: Surely there would be people who would be uneasy at the thought of being associated in any way (even voting for) a side of politics that gives succour to such diseased unethical haters.
Half seriously, I see it as virtually a patriotic duty to keep them out of power for as long as possible, this being the hatred and malice coming out of that side
There are three main options for constitutional change (with many differences in the detail for items 2 and 3):
1) no change – continue with the monarchy.
2) a republic with parliamentary appointment of president.
3) a republic with direct election of a president.
The referendum in 1999 was lost because many who favoured option 3 felt they had the best chance of achieving it by voting for option 1, and waiting for a subsequent referendum (personally, I think they got badly sucked in by the monarchists).
Do constitutional referendums have to be yes/no questions or could there be a referendum that allowed a preferential voting on these options?
If we could vote preferentially how would conservative monarchists like Glen and John vote? How would direct election advocates vote? I think that most parliamentary appointment advocates would, like myself, vote 2,3,1.
dovif at 241
What a peurile view of international relations.
What would you prefer – that we just shut up and said yes sir?
241
dovif
Yes, isn’t it good to have a PM who actually does what he promises and who cares to think beyond the next election.
JOM
Global Cooling was a theory first advanced in the 70s as a possibility that needed investigation, by Stephen Schneider, now part of the IPCC process. Schneider publically agreed the cooling theory was wrong and didn’t fit the evidence (which wasn’t available in the 70s) back in the 80s. In fact I heard Schneider speak when he was in Adelaide in 2006 and he made jokes about it. Its a complete red herring. Speaking of which, I’m detecting a pattern here.
Aitkin was a political scientist who went into university administration. If he wanted to comment on the political process with respect to climate change he may have relevant expertise. On mathematical modelling of anything, let alone something as complex as atmospheric modelling, he clearly does not have valid expertise. For his recent publications; nothing peer reviewed, let alone in science journals, see
http://www.assa.edu.au/Directory/listsearch.asp
Disc=Political+Science&KW=&Op=AND&Order=A&Panel=&SN=&Sort=S&submit=Search
dovif
You missed him upsetting the poms by not bowing and scraping to the queen.
Thats 4 major trading partners.
Next he plans to upset Italy by saying he’s not a great fan of Italian food, and the Netherlands by saying he doesn’t like the taste of rollmops.
Brendan I’m a republican
Cheers Socrates
246 It would also be good to have a PM who isn’t just pendering for pubic support and who actually cares about relationship with other countries except offending them
I think Rudd had alway had too big a head and too much believe in himself, it make him think too much of himselp, Note to Rudd, to most of the rest of the world, Australia is too small to matter, we only matters when we are being an annoance and places like China and US have a way of dealing with annoyances
245 Not shut up, but do not make a show of it, be more diplomatic. I think Tony Blair said it best, Superpowers (like China and US) won’t always listen to you, it is often better to be on the inside, to try to change their view, rather than on the outside and not being listened to.
Sorry John [249]. I presumed too much. No offense intended.
If only Rudd would headbutts the Queen, tell the Indians to take their wickets and go home, Tell the Packies in Islamabed Islam are bad. And tell the Kiwis …. well they are Kiwis
Then Australian’s isolationist policy will work really well!!!
Small problem – Therese is of Italian Heritage on her Mother’s side, her physical looks show it
– and on Italian Television, they really highlighted that aspect as a plus.
JOM 236
“Having said that I do not believe in global warming or better yet I do not believe in doomsday prophecies.”
I note with interest your use of the term “belief”. Surely if this is a scientific topic we can do a little better than resorting to beliefs to decide on a matter?
As for doomsday prophecies, I agree and tend not to believe them either. However I think there are two extremes in global warmign/CC debates, both false. One is that it will wipe out humanity within our life times. I agree that is false. The second extreme is that it isn’t happening. That is also false. In between, there is a range of impacts, consequences and costs of mitigation. Most credible scientists interested in climate change do not advocate extreme one. The trouble with people like Aitkins, is that they wish to opt for idiotic extreme two.
The most credible scientific and economic evidence is that it will be cheaper in the long run to fix climate change sooner rather than later. Just because it won’t destroy mankind doesn’t mean that it couldn’t wipe out whole industries, and some poor low lying countries. As usual, the problem is that an industry that benefits some people but harms the overall community can be difficult to remove or reform, if it has enough politicla power. That is why we stil have tobacco manufacturers and why I fear it will take some time to resolve climate change. I suspect we will probably be committed to melting Greenland first.
JOM
Noting your comment that you are a Republican, do you have any perception of what percentage of conservatives/coalition supporters that is true of?
BTW, if you want any sources for well written explanations of CC modelling, I can suggest URLs if you are interested.
251 dovif
I suggest you learn to point your toes inward while bending over if that’s the way you want to take it.
You talk as if trading is a one way street. It’s not. That’s why it’s called trading.
Heaven forbid that Rudd might voice the concerns of a nation.Next thing you know, he’ll be claiming to represent the entire nation?! It’s almost as if he’s acting as though he’s our Prime minister of something!!!!!
Me thinks you are easily offended and that you can’t tell the difference between a nation and a person. Ever had kids?
233 Bill
Too right. (I’m as guilty as most)
I think we should start referring to it as THE Glen however…..
Brendan nothing to appologise for, all good
My view on the Republic is that we should become one – but never with an elected President.
The “President” should be appointed by a two thirds majority of a joint sitting of both houses.
The way to implement this is to stay a constitutional monarchy but to change how the GG is appointed. Appoint the GG in the method I mentioned before.
Then when Queen Liz (who is well respected by most) eventually passes on, the mechanism is already in place.
No radical change. Just a Head of State appointed by the elected members of parliament.
Socrates I’m sorry I wouldn’t know. I do want a Bill of Rights in which ever model is adopted.
Yes please do suggest the URL’s.
Ruawake I like it, add a Bill of Rights in there and it has my vote!
Rx Says:
I was politely saying; ignorant sods. And in my own way trying to understand why has the Liberal party ended up where it is. I can see great men and jerks on both sides of politics. If you believe economies should be ran in a rational fashion Button was one of the greats. Why has the Liberal party end up with foul mouthed members that don’t believe in rational economics?
That sound like a good idea, Ruawake. Sometimes I’m tempted to just plump for an elected President to get it over with, but the competition between the two streams of government might be too intense… not perhaps immediately, but eventually.
On the oher hand, one thing an elected President could do (if he or she is elected let’s give them some teeth) would be to reject legislation if he or she didn’t think it was in the country’s best interests. There would have to be some qualifiers. For example if the legislation was passed with a 2/3rds majority then it couldn’t be stopped, but if it wasn’t then perhaps the President could delay it for three months to give everyone time to cool down. A second delay would result in a delay of one month before it could be presented again. There could be no third delay. This might have stopped the Pacific Solution legislation, which was needed instantly. A President could have held that over for three months and maybe given Labor a chance to have voted against it, or amended it, rather than being wedged into supporting it. It might have given parliamentarians a chance to haggle witht he President and to have arrived at a better solution.
What I guess I’m saying is that there are many who wanted and still want an elected President (enough to have lost republicans in general their Republic at the referendum), but I haven’t seen any writings at all on how the balance between Parliament and President would be struck. It’s a damn big change to have all in one go.
John
I’m not outright arguing agaist the bill of rights, but I am interested in what you (individually or collectively) want it to achieve?
My perspective is that the bill is only as strong as the legislation that supports it, and while the bill has an aspirational value, it will eventually have to be backed up by extremely technical legislation as people search for the limits of the language in the bill.
Don’t we already have that now?
Nick
I like Mr Beans bow where her gives Her Maj a Liverpool Kiss
251
dovif Says:
April 9th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
246 It would also be good to have a PM who isn’t just pendering for pubic support…
Plesae keep the funny stuff coming
JoM
Not too sure about a bill of rights – this would probably result in decades of High Court challenges until the judiciary sorts out exactly what the words mean.
We already have common law rights and implied rights under the constitution.
JOM
I agree on the Bill of Rights. I think one of the reasons why the previous referendum failed wasn’t just Howard’s tactics – the ARM didn’t think things through and lost an opportunity to fix weaker parts of our constitution.
As for climate change, here are some of the best sites IMO:
Hadley Centre (British Met Office) has a great download explaining the science:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/models/modeldata.html
(I would especially recommend downloading the briefing, which is clearly explained, but not dumbed down)
RealClimate is a good blog where professional climate scientits debate issues:
http://www.realclimate.org/
Finally Stephen Schneider and James Hansen have their own sites with many downloads. Hansen is more alarmist but from him that should be taken seriously, because he also probably has access to more data than anyone else:
James Hansen
http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/
Stephen Schneider
http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/
Another good website would be New Scientist’s continually updated “Special Report” on Climate Change: http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/
This has a wide range of articles including news pieces and features on different aspects of climate change. Most of the articles will reference scientific journal articles and the relevant research.
Remember when the talk was of the “greenhouse effect”? Speculation about the globe getting hotter did not just start with Al Gore!
Some of you will remember the 1980s TV documentary series Cosmos) produced by scientist-astronomer-cosmologist (and unabashed peacenik lefty), Carl Sagan. He was warning of a “greenhouse effect” way back then:
Here is a relevant clip from Cosmos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG0OTZx2_8Q&feature=related
Pretty prescient stuff!
dovif @ 241 -
First he upset our third largest trading partner USA, by pulling out of Iraq, while the USA did stuffed up Iraq, and is right to have no friends in Iraq, a little bit of support for a “friend” will ensure the same coutesy is given back to us in the future, while on the surface, the US is going to say that it does not matter, and toe the diplomatic line, inside they are likely to be upset.
So we should continue to kill, mostly innocent, Iraqis, and flush another $2 billion down the Iraq misadventure toilet just so as not to upset a discredited administration that will be history in 10 months?
And if you believe the U.S. will automatically support us just because we have helped them in the past then you haven’t been paying attention. For all their many failings, American governments have consistently shown one, IMHO, very admirable quality. They always act in what they perceive to be their country’s best interests. If in doing so they can help out a friend, so be it. But if they believe such help isn’t in their best interest then they’ll leave you swinging in the wind.
He aslo upset our second largest trading partner Japan, by not visiting them
No he didn’t, as you’d probably know if you read other than the opposition gazette. The problem has been mostly at the Japanese end, not ours.
He now upset our biggest trading partner, by going over there and complaining about their human rights. There are better channels to show your concern, without making a big scene and upseting China
Ah yes, the Howard doctrine. Don’t say anything publicly, leave it to the annual Australia-China Human Rights Technical Cooperation Program meeting in which our delegate goes through the motion of ticking off the Chinese representative over China’s human rights record while the latter pretends to give a stuff.
That’s really working, isn’t it?
We might be heading for another recession we had to have
Possibly. But it won’t be because of anything Rudd has said/done on Iraq, Japan or China.
Just read Rudd’s speech to Beijing University students. Excellent.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23511584-5013947,00.html
He should use that speechwriter more often.
Thanks for the links guys I’ve added them to my favourites and I will get to them asap.
Ruawake I agree with you when you say, “bill of rights – this would probably result in decades of High Court challenges until the judiciary sorts out exactly what the words mean.” BUT I would like to have my rights of freedom of speech, freedom of association enshrined.
Implied rights are not enough!
272
BB
Rudd has offended another nation through this little offering in the speech to the uni students:
“Because I was a graduate in Chinese, the then Australian Government decided to send me to Sweden, where in those days I could barely find a decent Chinese restaurant.”
Goodness, when will he stop! First he upsets the US, then Japan and the UK followed by China. Now he’s having a crack at the Sweden.
Steve K
Who cares about the land of Iced-Volvos
Mayoferal
you might be forgetting something call WWII, if not for the US, Australia would either be isolated, or be under Japan rule
“So we should continue to kill, mostly innocent, Iraqis, and flush another $2 billion down the Iraq misadventure toilet”
Typical lefty BS, Did you know that 1 million Iraqi died between 1988 and 1998 because of genocides? Of course those people did not matter
Did you know why so many Iraqis wanted to get out of the country before the iraq war?
The same people who were killing iraqis are still killing them, at a much slower rate and with no political approval now, we Australian and USA are not killing them
typically poorly through out left wing garbage
John of Melbourne @ 242. I know you have a sense of humour, and your posts, while conservative in tenor, are intelligent, polite and entertaining
I therefore wish to clarify something, in the event that you have misconstued the intent of my earlier post. I was trying to be ironic and funny, nothing more.
It is not under any circumstances acceptable to denigrate or devalue any culture or religion, nor to abuse members of that group on the basis of their ethnicity or religion. It is irrelevant who the perpetrator is, it is wrong.
The point I was highlighting was that your description of Crikey as a left wing publication had a touch of the absurd about it, the equivilent absurdity of dismissing the subject article merely on the grounds that it’s author had a muslim sounding name.
Perhaps though, as is probably the case, it is I who have misconstued you in this instance, and if so I apologise.
Do keep on blogging furiously from the Right, it keeps us centralists honest!
For the best part of 5 decades I’ve been pointing out to American friends that their Bill of Rights was just a scrap of paper. For all but about 6 years they’ve hotly disputed by contention. Only one or two still, halfheartedly, do.
Cheers Fulvio, I appologise too if I have misconstrued something.
Lol, I too believe I am a Centralist.
Rx@270
Thanks for the Sagan clip – I’d forgot how much I really enjoyed that show when it first came out – remember sitting watching it with friends and being stunned by the suggestions in it – also remember the Jupiter fly-by and the excitement then too!
dovif@276
So Saddam was a monster – all agree. But does waging a war against him without considering the likely reaction in the region so clever either? Comparing body counts is kinda absurd at the end of the day – when all said and done, hundreds of thousands (if not millions if you take into acount the impact of resource diversion during the oil embargo) of Iraqi’s have died. I still remain opposed to the invasion of Iraq, but I understand the need to liberate the people of that nation. What I don’t understand is the desire to continually justify a poorly thought through exercise, and why we have not continued on the same tack – invade North Korea, invade Sudan, invade Zimbabwe and so-on. Invasion is not an effective foreign policy tool in itself, just a way of imposing your will (generally for a short period of time) on another nation.
ruawake & John of Melbourne
Some concerns regarding simply replacing the GG with a parliamentary elected President – even if it is in reality the method of selecting a GG first. Firsty, Australia already has a compromised separation of powers as the Govt is drawn from the parliament, and this wont address that. We will continue in a tradition of responsible government but with the checks and balances afforded by a true separation of powers. Secondly, the House of Reps does truely represent the Australian people. If 98% of MP’s are elected on less than 80% of the vote how can this be representative? frther, in any electorate somewhere between 49%-30% is at anyone time not represented by their elected MP, beacuse they did not vote for that MP or their party. Is any GG elected by the parliament then representative of the people at all? Lastly, although this might be seen to mirror the German model of federation, the principles applied in Germany and Australia are different, as are the governing traditions.
273 John
amidst some of the illustrations of low intelligence elsewhere, I’m not sure that implied rights are not enough is actually true.
I think this is the same problem we’ve discussed here before – the gap between policy and outcomes. I reckon we’re probably in total agreement on what rights we would like to see beefed up, but I’m not convinced a bill of rights will achieve that. In a way, it’s the same as the republic thing under discussion – the polling suggest a majority of Australians like the idea of a republic, but when it came to the technical detail, we became a rabble. Rights can only ever really be implied, because they must be supported by legislation or case law – a system we already have.
Won’t same sticking points will occur, whether it’s a new bill or the implied one we live with now? Are you prepared for the bill do live or die dependant on whether it enshrines the right to same sex unions, abortion by choice, the right to euthanasia? Once you stack all those issues up in a row it’s pretty hard to get any sort of agreement.
I’m not saying I’m totally against it, but I reckon the system we have now where we can chip away at each of those issues, and have hundreds of years of case law that show progression toward ’solving’ many of them might actually be a better alternative.
Convince me.
Stewart J
Not sure what you are getting at.
Are you suggesting an elected president appoints the executive?
re:climate change. why does conservatism equate with scientific ignorance?? is it purely the vested interests of the polluters??
ruawake
Under a US-style Presidency if would (the President assumes the rights of the monarch and appoints the Ministers, but with legislatury oversight of Executive action). Under a German-style Presidency it would not, as the Prime-Minister (Chancellor) is still drawn from the parliament, but the method of election to the German parliament is significantly different from the Australian, especially the method of electing the upper house (it is indirect, based on who is in power in each of the states). So the election of a German President is based upon a significantly different premise.
There was also a typo in the third line…”…tradition of responsible government but withOUT the checks and balances afforded by a true separation of powers.” I would argue that the Westminster notion of responsible government is flawed in application in Australia, due to related issues.
1) the electoral system (single member electorates) favours majoritarian parties and not independents; and,
2) the high level of party discipline within the Australian parliament.
A genuine separation of powers would allow for more direct accountability of the Executive by the Legislature, but does have a draw back in that the legislature is still a body susceptible to party domination and discipline, and might still engage in partisan attacks on the Executive or be wholly compliant to it.
dovif @ 276
you might be forgetting something call WWII, if not for the US, Australia would either be isolated, or be under Japan rule
No I didn’t forget. Do you really think America came to our aid because they liked us? In 1941 very few even knew we existed. They helped us because it was in their best interests.
I would in return remind you that until 1941 most Australians thought Britain wouild move heaven and earth to come to our aid. They were as wrong as you are about America.
“So we should continue to kill, mostly innocent, Iraqis, and flush another $2 billion down the Iraq misadventure toilet”
Typical lefty BS, Did you know that 1 million Iraqi died between 1988 and 1998 because of genocides? Of course those people did not matter
Crap. Most of the million died in the Iraq/Iran war, not at the hands of Saddam. Which is not to say he wasn’t a murderous thug. But that is not why Australi invaded Iraq. As Howard made very clear we did it for our advantage, not the Iraqis’.
If you believe that what dictators do to their citizens is a reason for launching illegal wars of agression then why does the U.S. court even more bloodthirsty dictators than Saddam – some of the rulers in the *stans make him look like a choir boy by comparison – and use their torturers to illicit, mostly useless, information from CIA captives?
Did you know why so many Iraqis wanted to get out of the country before the iraq war?
A mere trickle compared to the 2 million plus that have left Iraq since the invasion and a similar number who are refugees within Iraq.
The same people who were killing iraqis are still killing them, at a much slower rate
So the mission is a complete failure, then, eh?
we Australian and USA are not killing them
Really? Those we aren’t directly killing – and with the Americans increasingly resorting to aerial bombardment they are killing a great many, mostly civilians – are being killed by ‘militias’ funded by the U.S. or by militias fighting to ‘our’ militias.
Meanwhile the country breaks up, in the absence of a true and effective Iraqi government, into what Nir Rosen calls “fiefdoms run by warlords and militiamen.” A chaotic, violence plagued tinderbox of city states, proliferating militias armed to the teeth, competing regions armed to the teeth, and competing religious factions armed to the teeth.
typically poorly through out left wing garbage
Yawn
Stewart J
I assume you are a supporter of a minority party (sorry if I am wrong). Multi-Member electorates is a recipe for chaos. Why would anyone want to consign Australia to almost perpetual minority Govt?
283 Andrew
nice question
The really funny thing (ha ha…oh f&*k!) is that the conservative approach (Nicholas Stern) is action. I’d suggest that the group you are labelling as the conservatives will be painted as the radicals, given enough time.
I think there is correlation, without necessarily a direct relationship.
Have you read Future Shock – Alvin Toffler? He’s not the only one, and it’s been a long time since I read it, but I believe he posits that some people can cope with change – others can’t, and others need it.
My short analysis of human history suggests that any portion of time spent at the extreme end of this spectrum actually breeds, or empowers the opposing end, and thus we have a somewhat self-balancing system of human development.
here’s an insightful quote:
“But a lot of conservatives attempt to make me one as well, put me in my place. I don’t know why they think we’re all going to convert each other.”
3 brownie points for someone who can identify the source?
onimod
The daughter of Trevor Bormann’s childhood sweetheart?
Christopher Hitchens’ homeopath?
No I cheated: it’s the illustrious granddaughter.
I see another Labor politican (in Tasmania) came to grief today for misleading Parliament. What a decent lot of people – just includes liars, pedophiles, sexual deviants and all other forms of corruption that one can imagine. Any State that elects them deserves all they get.
Barry
That will teach him to buy a crap shredder.
288-89
Too easy to cheat?
290 Glen – you’ve typed the wrong name.
onimod
I could give you far too much detail.
Barry, you Queensland Young Libs are a funny lot, never noticed you whinging about the Queensland Liberal who was going to quit last week to protect our democracy. Was the threat to quit of Steve Dicksen’s the lie or the later backflip? I could never work it out.
294 hahahaha
I can’t – so you’re safe….
291 The other possibility is that the treat to quit was a lie and the threat to remain a liberal is a lie, Barry.
FEDERAL and state Liberal MPs in Queensland are warning they may quit the party and join a new state-based body if the federal Coalition partners fail to agree to merge.
As divisions with the Liberals over plans for a new Queensland party deepened, federal MP for Fisher Peter Slipper and state MP for Kawana Steve Dickson refused yesterday to rule out joining the new party.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23509801-5006786,00.html
Steve – a 60 yo man a member of the Young Libs. That is quite a compliment. I have no idea about Steve Dicksen but I do know about the crooks in the Labor Party. Perhaps I can keep you informed. You obviously don’t keep up to date. BTW – I’m still waiting for you to put up regarding your allegations against Joh. I think about 4 days has passed now since I threw up the challenge. No allegations, no urban myths, no Labor stories – just facts.
Your challenge is?
298
Barry
So you’re 60+ years old, love Joh and hate Labor – yep, red neck for sure
Steve – The challenge was to put up and substantiate your allegations that Joh was corrupt (or shut upI guess). I would like facts.
Steve K – I suspect anybody right of you would be a red neck in your eyes. That doesn’t make me one though.
Maybe I can speculate that both Steves are young, full of fire and that by the time they reach my age they will have seen a bit more of the world and that they will see things very differently.
onimod
A Fairy Tale with no basis in fact.
A young ambitious journalist joins a TV news crew – not too far from the Burvale Hotel. He falls head over heals in love with the daughter of a well known novelist, he is so sure that this will lead to paradise he buys a love nest in Upwey – in the picturesque Dandenongs.
Unfortunately as often happens true love falters, the young journalist, heartbroken moves to Sydney joins Aunty and gets a job travelling the world.
But this is an ancient tale, at least 30 years old.
300 steve K
how can you tell? (no – I don’t need an answer)
Does anyone else see the irony of the use of the term “drawdown” when used in relation to troop withdrawals from Iraq?
The first two links from google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawdown_(economics)
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/drawdown.asp
W I T H D R A W A L is not a dirty word.
(and that’s all I’m going to say about Iraq – just don’t mention the war)
Did anyone who watched Kerry Interview Swannie get the impression that Kerry has a bit too much invested? Swannie even laid a punch tonight.
276 dovif
“Did you know that 1 million Iraqi died between 1988 and 1998 because of genocides? ”
Can you provide a reference for that egregious piece of nonsense?
Saddam liquidated about 80,000 Kurds in a genocide at the time of the Iran-Iraq War SUPPORTED by the US who sent him the chemical weapons to do so. Even after the War finished they backed him, until he invade Kuwait. He probably killed about 100,000 political opponents, which does NOT meet the definition of genocide. Political groups are not included in the genocide treaty.
The largest genocide in Iraq was caused by the US sanctions after they decided Saddam was no longer their best buddy and an estimated 500,000 died due to the sanctions, which make the Iraqi population totally dependent on Saddam.
Barry,
Are you really suggesting I am going to become a Joh-loving, right-wing xenophobe in 25 years time? Why haven’t my parents had the same conversion?
ruawake – a lovely tale indeed.
One Tree Hill is a great location for training on one’s MTB too
I hope you get over it one day!
ruawake
306 is the other half’s login
that’ll teach me to type on the wrong machine
301
Barry
I have no interest in debating Joh with you or anyone else. All I know is that he was either corrupt or totally stupid. Either way he was a disgrace to his profession and QLD was a much better place for his departure from public life.
Not everybody can see the obvious Chris. Maybe there’s hope for your parents yet. Perhaps discuss the calibre of the current labor Party members with them – don’t leave out Keith Wright, Bill Darcy, Brian Burke (and the rest of the crew in WA), the people involved recently in Woolongong, Milton whatisname in NSW, the incompetence of Joan Kirner, Big Red in Tas, the current crew in NSW. I could go on and on but I have a few more important things to do at the moment.
Don’t write off your parents just yet though.
303
onimod
“Did anyone who watched Kerry Interview Swannie get the impression that Kerry has a bit too much invested? Swannie even laid a punch tonight.”
I missed it – what do you mean by Kerry having too much invested? Also would you describe the punch? Kerry is normally the best prepared of journalists so Swannie must have been quick to land a jab.
309 [I could go on and on]
I do not doubt that for one second, Barry!
Barry,
I think my parents have been scarred enough by Howard’s 17pc interest rates, Kennet closing schools and rail-lines, cutting funding to hospitals, Bolte creating hi-rise slums, children overboard (”we don’t want people like that living in this country” – indeed), the Justice Kirby ‘affair’, etc etc.
You’d think if Labor were that bad there would be a Liberal Government somewhere in Australia. but I suppose not everyone can be as enlightened as you.
310 Steve K
You should probably watch it, but Swan was much cooler in his delivery up until the last line of the interview. Kerry was pushing throughout and Swan was toeing the line. Kerry called him on it and Swan responded with a retort that indicated he’d memorised Allbull’s questioning of Glen Stevens at estimates. Kerry pushed again and Swan basically told him to think up his own questions and stop parroting Allbulls piss weak questions. When the camera returned to Kerry he had the big grin across his face. The next and last question was soft, but Swan was ‘up’ and rushed the reply.
The grin was either sheepish, or maybe Kerry achieved what he was after.
I think Kerry was trying to get Swan to look nervous and panicky in response to the worsening international conditions; Swan looked cooler than Kerry. I wondered what Kerry’s stock portfolio looks like – that’s all. He may well have been just ‘amping’ up a little with the hope that Swan would respond?
on another matter, i think the libs would be stupid to merge with the Nats. I agree that being out of power federally should prompt review of their policies and platform (although I dont think they’ll do this), they should think twice about giving up their party’s identity altogether. Would be a strange irony though, if after the PM the Libs tell us was one of the best ever, his party amalgamated with another- maybe he wasnt so good after all…
oops i meant out of power federally and all states and territories (feels good to say that!)
Meanwhile the Magical Listening Tour now has a new video attached.
http://www.liberal.org.au/Shadow%20Ministry/Brendan%20Nelson/index.php%20#3
314-15 Andrew
I can’t see the sum of the parts being as big as it stands now.
I just can’t see how a Queensland pastoralist and a Sydney Institute member are ever going to be members of the same party.
313
onimod
Thanks for that onimod. I was hoping that the 7.30 report was repeated in the morning on ABC2 but I don’t see it listed. It sounds like Swannie handled himself fairly well – not the best Rudd minister by a long shot but improving over time. It’s good to see Albull getting a mention.
Onimod.
If a Yorkshire Tory and a Westender Tory from London can be in the One Party, why can’t a Queensland pastoralist and a Sydney Institute member be in the One Party?
If a Tory from Vancouver can be in the One Party as a Tory in Quebec City then why can’t it be done here???
Conservatives only need 1 party.
The Conservatives of Italy are gradually trying to get a single party going the Party of Freedom.
The Canadian Conservatives merged the Canadian Alliance and the PC Party and now they are in Government.
New Zealand has just one conservative party.
Japan has one conservative party.
Singapore has one conservative party.
South Korea has one conservative party.
Great Britain has one conservative party.
Denmark has one centre-right party.
France has one centre-right party.
USA has one conservative party.
Spain as one conservative party.
Greece has one conservative party.
Need i go on?
Australia no longer needs a bush centric party in Canberra the Liberals already hold more rural seats. If the Nats dont merge into the Liberal Party then there ought to a new single conservative party with a new name born soon!
Diogenes @ 304 -
Saddam liquidated about 80,000 Kurds in a genocide at the time of the Iran-Iraq War SUPPORTED by the US who sent him the chemical weapons to do so.
They also supplied the satellite photos the Iraqis needed for optimum targetting.
He probably killed about 100,000 political opponents,
At the rate two of Bush’s new best friends, Uzbekistan’s Islam ‘Boil Them in Oil” Karimov and Nursultan Nazarbayev of Kazakstan, are killing off political foes (and their families) they’ll soon eclipse that figure. Perhaps they already have.
And the bushies are just going to toe the line?
They believe in ’single economic units’?
I don’t know why you’re going on – the point was that your dream of a single conservative party means people with widely divergent views are just going to come together because……
What’s you evidence that ‘conservatives only need one party’?
Look at most democratic western countries they don’t have more than one conservative party!
Hell if One Nation can be smashed then any other small bush party will too anyway Canada don’t suffer from 3rd party (rural political organisations)?
Let’s look at 3 of the most similar nations to ourselves…
New Zealand = National Party
Canada = Conservative Party of Canada
UK = Conservative Party
They all have just 1 party and they all have diverse peoples in them…
I’d say it would be harder to get a Tory from Quebec and a Tory from Vancouver to come to agreement but look they did so how hard can it be doing the same thing here!
Steve K,
No need to wait. See here.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/
Glen,
The UK is about the size of Victoria, you simply cannot compare the needs of rural people in the UK to those in Australia. Someone from Yorkshire only need to drive about 30 minsute to be in a city -that simply doesn’t happen in rural Australia. You only have to look at the Telstra-rural conundrum to see that. Telecoms aren’t an issue here.
Chris
I hate to point out but despite that fact the UK has what 50million citizens that gives you alot of diversity!
Anyway what percentage of people live in rural areas a small percentage. Plus why not focus on Canada lot a rural places there and yet they have one conservative political party. Nice Try!
Glen,
I’m not ‘try’ing anything – I’m simply pointing out that you can’t say that a country with 60 million people in an area the size of Victoria can be compared with a country that has 20 million people in an area the size of western Europe. If you think they can then you’re a bigger fool than I thought.
Canada has 30million and are are about the same size as us and they have 1 Tory Party explain that!
Did I mention Canada? I thought I said a comparison between UK and Aust is not relevant. I don’t really care if the Libs and NP merge, I was making an observation.
*bangs head against wall*
You deliberately avoided the Canada comparison!
*bangs head against wall*
The Australian conservatives must be the only conservative party on Earth calling themselves a Liberal Party.
Glen, to all intents and purposes there is just one conservative party in Australia already. Formally merging the two tory brands is not going to improve their market share. You may end up with the worst of all worlds: socially liberal urban voters may feel uncomfortable with the more old-fashioned, monarchist, flag-flying, country types and likewise, country voters, who really depend on the government for lots of support, may not long support a party run by and for the big-end-of-town.
But one thing is for sure, whether you tories go for a uni-brand or a dual-brand strategy, you have to improve your product first. The public are not buying the second rate offering currently out on special. Where are the ideas? the will to improve things? the energy? the desire to lead? The product is second rate and you’d better start with that, imho.
Chris in LDN @ 328 -
*bangs head against wall*
Never argue with a village idiot, Chris. People tend to soon loose track of who’s who
331 blindoptimist
bingo!
(ruawake – I hope I didn’t say the wrong thing?)
Glen, I think the best days of the coalition are clearly behind us all. What lies ahead? Why do conservatives bother to seek office? Tell me why. I really don’t know what y’all stand for or what you might do if you ever won an election again. What are you for? I suspect you stand for one thing only: office itself.
Blindoptimist, I suspect (actually I’m positive) they do stand for something very significant: the imposition of Work”Choices” onto all employees.
Rx i agree it should be called either the Conservative Party of Australia or the United Australia Party (the former Tory group of the 1930s). The Liberal Party merely confuses people overseas…
331
blindoptimist – that may but will they really vote for the left?
First we need structural change then we can start pumping out policy IMHO! Both changes are necessary!
blindoptimist we are in favour of choice to be able to chose your education for your child and not be punished for your decision for being able to encourage sensible wages growth and give employeers the conditions applicable to create more jobs. We Tories are for a strong economy with practical and well thought out policies that don’t lead to big government. When we get into power in say 2016, we’ll no doubt have to fix the mess left to us each time we regain office from the Left fixing the economy will be the number 1 priority. Everytime we leave the economy in good shape except 1929 (Bruce) but we have left the ALP a bounty when they got into office and they end up squandering it or ruining the economy somehow and we have to sort out your mess!
336 [The Liberal Party merely confuses people overseas…]
It confuses people in Australia too. Some have been known to be so confused that they actually voted for the Liberals.
Well Steve that kinda happens when the ALP me-too’s just about every Tory policy and promises to be like the Tories when they take office…it’s an understandable confusion given the ALP are so willing to go towards the right to win an election…
http://news.theage.com.au/conservatives-win-majority-in-s-korea-election-exit-polls/20080409-24y2.html
‘The polls by four TV stations gave differing figures. But the lowest prediction for Lee Myung-Bak’s Grand National Party (GNP) was 154 seats in the 299-member single-chamber National Assembly, and the highest was 184.”
The Tories are on the march!
At least in South Korea!
I think it’s funny that on site full of political nerds, Glen thinks he has to explain what the UAP was.
ruawake@286
I am a supporter of proportional representation (and I have previously outed myself as a Green). The key problem with single member electorates is the failure of representation, not of government. Many countries work just fine with coalitions (heck, we’ve had one in Australia for the last 11 years – even if I didn’t like it, it fitted the ’stability’ argument). Germany is currently in a coalition and has been for the last 40 years. So too for France and other European nations, irrespective of their electoral system. The point I’m trying to make is that governments can still be formed, nations operate, economies grow. That is not chaos. What does concern me here is the representational issue – that is, of the citizens being represented in parliament.
But to go further on my two points of failure of responsible government in Australia, the very strong party discipline exhibited here undermines the nature of government being responsbile to parlliament. This has partly ameliorated by the Senate (or at least did between 1980 to 2005) when neither Coalition or ALP controlled it, but even there it has been possible to pass most Government legislation. And of course between 2005-2007 we had the spectre of an unfettered Coalition ruling with only limited checks or balances upon it.
I am sure on a planet somewhere in this galaxy there is a conservative government on the march.
I’ve already shot down Barry’s argument re the Fitzgerald inquiry and it’s terms of reference. If he is prepared to mislead us on that what else is he prepared to mislead us on? Funny how Barry didn’t respond to that posting.
Now the Tory supporters (read Glen) have to find electoral satisfaction from overseas, namely South Korea and Italy. Am I the only one here who couldn’t care less about what goes on politically in these countries? You are desperate Glen.
338 Glen – hang on, earlier you expressed to me that the ALP had no policies and now you’re saying they have the Liberal’s policies. Which is it? By the way, I think you’ll find the Libs have adopted Labor’s policies in some areas since the election.
“Everytime we leave the economy in good shape except 1929 (Bruce) but we have left the ALP a bounty when they got into office and they end up squandering it or ruining the economy somehow and we have to sort out your mess!”
I don’t recall in 1983 the economy being left in good shape for the Hawke government. Who was the outgoing treasurer again? Stop trying to rewrite history Glen.
Ah but look at the shape we got it in 1975 and also when we got it again in 1996…
Also Fraser was a tool and wouldn’t like Junior Howie as Treasurer do what was necessary!
347 Glen – I think by that answer you’re acknowledging Howie left the economy in bad shape in ‘83, something you failed to mention earlier. By the way the only reason the interest rates weren’t higher than 13% under Howie was that they were pegged at 13%.
You got a far stronger base to work from in ‘96 (given the economic reforms of the Keating/Hawke governments) than Hawke got in ‘83.
Glen, I don’t think most voters assess things in terms of left and right most of the time. That is a pastime for the politically animated. Life for most people is both less charged and more nuanced than that.
A very successful politician from the Goldfields, Premier Wise, had an axiom: politics, for him, was about service. In other words, politics was about knowing and understanding your constituents, listening to them and serving them without reservation. He was an outstandingly successful politician, usually winning more than 80% of the vote in his seat and revered for his good sense and honest application to improving things for the people.
Until the conservatives come to view politics as being more a call to serve and less as a chance to rule, they will continue to attract duds and lose elections.
347, 348
Exactly – interest rates were on a downward trend when JWH started to make us feel ‘relaxed and comfortable’.
I suppose it’s good manners to help people relax before shafting them.
Barry 301
I don’t wish to be seen as being pro-Labor on this one, as I think that both sides have had their share of rogues, as current NSW Labor in Wooloongong proves. That being said there was considerable evidence of what is now defined as official corruption on the part of Joh in Queensland. You are getting “not being convicted” mixed up with “not doing it”. Remember that he was first charged with perjury and only acquitted the trial was aborted when the jury was deadlocked. He was never found “not guilty”. Later it emerged that all of the jury wished to convict except the foreman, Luke Shaw, who had been a leader of the National Party youth wing but failed to disclose the fact while being empanelled (itself arguably an offence, though he was never charged.)
Read the Fitzgerald inquiry, which has a neat appendix sumarising findings on the main figures, including Joh, Russ Hinze and others. The alleged perjury related to conflicting evidence Joh gae to two different inquiries into corruption adn prostitution in Queensland, while he was under oath. If convicted, he faced a jail sentence of up to 14 years on the perjury charge, which was the most serious offence he could have been cahrged with from the Fitzgerald evidence.
Joh also received a considerable amount of services and goods for his rural property from Sir Les Theiss, then a major figure in the Queensland consutrction industry with many government contracts, without ever explaining how the goods and servics were paid for. However after the controversy surrounding the first trial being aborted, the Attorney General elected not to proceed further.
Not wanting to beleive something doesn’t change the facts.
Download the report for yourself if you wish; the sections on dealing with a culture of corruption are still a great piece of thinking about reform.
http://www.cmc.qld.gov.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=10877
Glen, I have the good fortune to know a good many politicians – from the left, from the right, from the past and from the present too. The good ones, regardless of their party or their leanings, have one thing in common: a positive desire to make things better for the public combined with good decision-making ability. They are not ideological or theoretical. They are practical, energetic and straightforward.
The thing I wonder about is why you cast yourselves as ‘conservatives’. The world is changing very quickly. Surely, you have to see yourselves as being up to the challenge of the future. If you don’t see yourselves this way, how can you expect anyone else to see you that way. In calling yourselves ‘conservative’ you are more or less declaring that you are happier looking back in time and, in a sense, are resistant to change.
You have to change your worldview. You are making the same mistake the left made for a long time: expecting the public to eventually come to their senses and fall in with your vision of reality. What is really required is for you to come to terms with the expectations of the public. Afterall, you need them more than they need you!
Conservatives at least can appreciate the past use what worked and not simply throw it all away. One cannot understand the future without understanding the past! Conservatives aren’t just keeping things the way they are, Howard reformed the Australian economy he didn’t just sit on his behind and twiddle his thumbs. Conservatives aren’t resistant to change but they prefer a more pragmatic approach to change so as to avoid the dangers that change usually has in store. Call it cautious whatever you like but the fact is being a conservative means you are just as capable of being up to the challenge of the future because one can appreciate the past, learn from it, take what works and then try to formulate change without going over the top as many on the left tend to do why look at Gough!
The expectations of the public are simple, they want good stable government, one that can manage the economy, give them prosperity yet acknowledge their social concerns at the same time. They really want a Moderate party one not too far left and no too far right that is why the ALP and Liberal Party have drifted to the centre in order to win elections, the best example is Rudd remodeling the ALP as a Centre party and not putting an emphasis on its hard left roots so it could win government but that doesn’t mean there aren’t hard leftists in the Rudd Cabinet!
I am now enlightened. Being a conservative is to exist in a state of theo-political sainthood; to be omniscient, wise, omnipotent, benevolent and dynamic.
How could I have been so Godless, deluded, self absorbed and narcistic as to have denied this self evident truth? How could I have hitherto devil worshipped in a Netherworld of malevolent socialism?
Glen has shown me the stairway to Heaven and placed my foot on the first rung.
I am saved.
You’re dreaming, Glen.
I have returned from an incredibly expensive and worse incredibly boring dinner.
Only to find Glen here.
If Glen had been at the dinner, at least I could have thrown a knife or two. Not only that, John the constant, representing himself as the reasonable caller, on Delroy, as I tuned in the crystal set, is busy condemning Rudd, for any thing which engages his mind. Gave himself away on this occasion, identifying himself as being from a Mt Eliza club. Kevin Andrew’s territory springs to mind.
It really is too boring.
I have noted with interest that the expat commentators are upbeat, positive and welcoming of the initiatives of our PM.
Unlike Glen, ilk, the Australian papers and such local commentators as Rod Quinn, for one, on ABC Radio.
351 Socrates, all the information about the Fitzgerald Inquiry was posted on the Queensland thread too but to no avail. Easier to not read it, not understand it and keep asking the same questions I’m afraid. You’d swear that all the search engines in the world were just put into computers to confirm the prejudices of Tories.
Glens carrying on about past wars, the greens are carrying on about channel deepening and Australia doesn’t even make the chart when it comes to renewable energy.
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10961890
Glen
your definition of Conservative may be correct but the past Coalition government was neither conservative or liberal on a number of issues.
Firstly, you argue that conservatives value the lessons of history. So why did Howard involve us in a war overseas at the behest of the US that was none of our business? Most commentators in the lead up to Iraq drew obvious comparisons with Vietnam – and their fears have been realised.
As a result of Vietnam, the ADF has clear guidelines on planning for conflict. These include setting perametres for failure and withdrawal e.g. if it costs us this, if these things are not achieved etc. The guidelines were thrown out the window. Conservative governments do not do that; they value expert advice.
Conservative governments value the rule of law – trashed in the case of Dr Haneef, Tampa, etc. – and individual rights – removed under Howard’s security legislation. We really don’t know to what extent these laws have impacted on people because they put aside habeas corpus – the eleven men on trial in Victoria at present for terrorism offences whereabouts were, until their trial, only known to a few people and thus their human rights could not be enforced.
Conservative governments believe in small government, yes – and Howard oversaw Australia’s biggest ever public service bureacracy.
Conservative governments believe in limiting bureaucratic red tape, especially for business. Howard introduced GST and WorkChoices, both of which imposed huge paperwork requirements on businesses (I know of one medium sized business – about 150 employees – who had to employ someone full time simply to deal with the GST, from which they were exempt anyway).
Conservative governments are rational in their approach, putting data before emotions. Yet on numerous occasions Howard acted on ideology and ignored the data – and continued to do so in the case of climate change until the very last minute.
Conservative governments believe in real choice. They don’t tilt the balance in favour of private over public. Howard not only blackmailed people into taking out private health (and I do not use that term lightly) but deliberately ran down state schools, vilifying them at every opportunity.
Simple labels don’t fit reality. Whatever else Howard’s government was, it was not a true conservative/liberal government. Part of the problem thus left for the Opposition is their lack of identity.
Oh and conservative governments respect the Constitution – they don’t whinge about the restrictions placed on them by the High Court or State rights.
They also uphold the unwritten rules of Government, in our case those inherited from the Westminster system – quaint old (conservative) things such as Ministerial responsibility, where ‘not knowing’ ‘not being told’ are reasons for resignation in themselves.
A true conservative party might be a good thing in Australia, but we don’t have one. We either have a hard right ideologically driven Liberal party or an agrarian socialist party or a series of variations of the rabid populism of One Nation.
I might be able to admire a party which was truly conservative (or liberal).
359 and 360
zoom
Great points zoom.
Glen is like a broken record as the old saying goes (not sure what the modern day CD/DVD equivilent is) and will repeat the same stuff over and over and over and over and….
If Rudd was a member of the Liberal party whilst still holding similar views to the ones we are familiar with he would be lauded by Glen and other conservatives as a visionary and a wonderful leader.
#339 – as it happened I was in Seoul the week before the new government was inaugurated (like the US, a couple of months elapse between the election and inauguration). They have obviously learned something from their Western political counterparts, because one incoming minister was quoted as blaming something (the fire that destroyed a major national monument) on the neglect of the previous government, and another said something to the effect of “we’ve had a look at the books and things are much worse than we thought”.
Brendan is touring the servos while Rudd is in China telling the Chinese they have a trouble with human rights. One tour made a man look weak the other tour made a man look strong. Rudd underlined his name as the real deal in speaking up in China.
Then again we know he knows the whole China/Tibet diplomatic strategy backwards and knows as good as any how to deal with China.
China really needs to make the most of this visit by Rudd to show some change of heart. Surely they must be aware that the protests of the torch tour is probably only the beginning and, will only get worse once closer to the Olympics and create larger troubles during. The Olympics could turn out to be a PR disaster for them as TV coverage focuses on sundry human rights abuses in the country.
China must also be alert that the focus on Tibet will only be the beginning of newer harder focus on China human rights issues from now on. People have woken up, China is the flavour of the month. Strategically they should want to short cut this now before they lose total control of the issue. There are the troubles in Dafur which China is basically supporting. That will be the next re-focus and embarrassment for China in the build up to the Olympics.
The best way would to relent on Tibet, put in some plan and undertaking etc that deals with world concerns.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/swan_makes_meal_of_sardine/
364
I wonder if most of the posters on that blog realise how much money their employers poured in to the ALP coffers to get rid of the last regime?
That business believed in the economic management skills of the Howard Costello partnership has surely been debunked by now?
Where are their cushy jobs? Why is all the praise for JHW coming from overseas?
Those at the coal face here knew what was going on.
Bolt won’t like the budget no matter what was in it JOM. The same as he loved every Costello budget no matter what was in it. Nothing to see there.
JoM, if the growth rate is going to remain about 3% with only a 25% chance of recession then what is Bolt bleating about? I’d have thought the story would have been that Bolt’s predictions of disaster are wide of the mark and he’d be apologizing for all his demonising of Swan’s ability as Treasurer.
364 – JoM pointing me to Bolt is like me pointing you to Phillip Adams, a total waste of time and effort. I don’t need to read Bolt to know what stance he will take. Now, can you point me to a genuinely objective political commentator?
Why are any of you bothering to click a link on a JoM post. What did you expect to find???
the tories are struck between a rock and a hard place. if they say the economy is bad, then that means they left it in a bad state. If they say it is good, they are saying that Swan is managing it OK. Unfortnately for them, in their desparation to cling to power they gave very mixed messages about the economy, so its no surprise they’re struggling
In reading Bolt you may as well read Abbott. No point in reading him unless you are a LNP supporter and are looking for a moral boost.
Beats me why Bolt doesn’t go for preselection somewhere it is not as though the party is over flowing with talent at the moment.
Too bad there wasn’t a questioning of Costello over the years.
369 Quite simply Andrew the budget is coming up shortly and Milne,Bolt,JoM, Nelson and most of the Tory world are of the delusion that this will be the beginning of the Tory Budget bounce back, the opportunity of the year to turn their fortunes around, the end of the Rudd honeymoon and the beginning of the Tory fightback.
I don’t believe it will be any of those things but intend to enjoy the full extent of the Tory embarrassment on budget night. It just helps to be forewarned of what their delusions are before the actual night arrives.
Isn’t it amazing how history repeats? The LNP and their core supporters were waiting for last years Budget bounce and it never came and here they are seemingly prepared to wait for it yet again!
373 Al that is exactly what Nelson meant this week.
QUESTION:
You want to Prime Minister, how are you going to turn that polling around?
DR NELSON:
You watch.
http://www.liberal.org.au/info/news/detail/20080408_NelsonDoorstopLauncestonJohnButtonOlympictorchrelay.php
Where are their cushy jobs? Why is all the praise for JHW coming from overseas?
Good point onimod. The remaining rabble must be extremely pissed that the Rodent is receiving all the cash and kudos, while they’re left – a broken and essentially leaderless mob – to carry the can. Not that I have any sympathy for them.
#372
There will be some very damaging examples of pork barrelling and general financial mismanagement under Howard/Costello that Labor are keeping under wraps. I don’t expect Swan will mention them in his budget speech either but once Nelson has completed his right of reply speech (where he will tell us that Labor have been mean to cut spending here and there) Rudd, Gillard, Swan and Tanner will come out with all guns blazing. It won’t be a pretty sight for the conservatives.
Had a quick flick to Pies’ blog.
No mention of Rudd’s speech at Bejing Uni, probably because Rudd proved Pies 100% wrong and showed he was his own man not China’s.
So next blog will be about Heinert as he dodges admitting he was wrong about Rudd
I just can’t believe the Tory faith in ‘fairies at the bottom of the garden’ theory. By some miracle on budget night there is going to be a seismic shift in political thinking and the polls will all turn around based on petrol prices, grocery prices and interest rates. Nelson will lead them to victory and they will all live happily everafter.
Sorry Tories that script seems just a little removed from reality for me.
Why do Nelson, Bolt and Milne subscribe to this rubbish and encourage their readers to believe such nonsense?
#378
“Why do Nelson, Bolt and Milne subscribe to this rubbish and encourage their readers to believe such nonsense?”
Could it be that they’ve got nothing else to offer?
I can’t wait to see the killer blow that Milne has been hiding in his sleeve. A list of grocery prices taken the day after the election, it must be a couple of kilometers long. The Petrol price at each bowser in Australia would also be magnificent and a lonely page with the interest rate as at the day after the election.
All these apparently are to be compared with the price of each item on budget night and the effect apparently will be devastating for Swan and Rudd especially as it is such a surprise that only people who read his column or have access to the internet know about his grand revolutionary tactic.
It will only confirm the inflation environment left by the previous govt and hence the budget.
381 Kina but to quote the good doctor,”You watch”.
I haven’t read the article but Bolt apparently says there is no genocide in Tibet. Ok then we all have nothing to worry about. Silly us. Bolt’s been to Tibet and can assure us of this.
Who said anything about genocide in Tibet? Highest figure I have seen is 100 (purported) demonstrators killed. Hardly genocide.
But everyone of their articles is “well researched” according to their faithful worshippers.
Can you people please stop referring to boltHEADS Cro-Magnon views.
#383
Barry Cassidy this morning also indicated that he thought suggestions of genocide were over the top.
I think this quote from Clive Crook, in the Financial Times , with a few small amendments sums up the Liberals problem nicely.
By the way. Check out the picture of the Clintons. They say a picture says a thousand words. lol
http://www.byronbayinstitute.net/Articles/Tidbits.html
I thought they were referring to cultural genocide?
OT, but this is pretty good too.
If you ever testify in court, you might wish you could have been as sharp as this policeman. He was being cross-examined by a defense attorney during a felony trial. The lawyer was trying to undermine the policeman’s credibility…
Q: ‘Officer — did you see my client fleeing the scene?’
A: ‘No sir. But I subsequently observed a person matching the description of the offender, running several blocks away.’
Q: ‘Officer — who provided this description?’
A: ‘The officer who responded to the scene.’
Q: ‘A fellow officer provided the description of this so-called offender. Do you trust your fellow officers?’
A: ‘Yes, sir. With my life.’
Q: ‘With your life? Let me ask you this then officer. Do you have a room where you change your clothes in preparation for your daily duties?’
A: ‘Yes sir, we do!’
Q: ‘And do you have a locker in the room?’
A: ‘Yes sir, I do.’
Q: ‘And do you have a lock on your locker?’
A: ‘Yes sir.’
Q: ‘Now why is it, officer, if you trust your fellow officers with your life, you find it necessary to lock your locker in a room you share with these same officers?’
A: ‘You see, sir — we share the building with the court complex, and sometimes lawyers have been known to walk through that room.’
Thomas and Triton: Here are some figures:
Reprisals for the 1959 National Uprising alone involved the elimination of 87,000 Tibetans by the Chinese count, according to a Radio Lhasa broadcast of 1 October 1960. Tibetan exiles claim that 430,000 died during the Uprising and the subsequent 15 years of guerrilla warfare.
Some 1.2 million Tibetans are estimated to have been killed by the Chinese since 1950.
The International Commission of Jurists concluded in its reports, 1959 and 1960, that there was a prima facie case of genocide committed by the Chinese upon the Tibetan nation. These reports deal with events before the Cultural Revolution.
Chinese Justice: Protest and Prisons
Exile sources estimate that up to 260,000 people died in prisons and labour camps between 1950 and 1984…
Source: Free Tibet Campaign
Steve at 380, Milne’s strategy has been transparent since day one. He has tried to fashion a narrative that Rudd promised lower petrol and grocery problems, and that’s what he’s going to judge the government. Rudd, in fact, never made such promises so its all dwarf fantasy
sorry i meant prices not problems. why cant you edit here?
387 Scorpio
http://www.byronbayinstitute.net/Articles/Tidbits.html
scroll 2/3rds of the way down the page to see where Glen gets if all from.
(hint: letter from Bronwyn Bishop)
For those you don’t drop in on Crikey from time to time, a gentleman over there has suggested we call Dr Nelson “Hopoate” because he is a single digit man.
Does anyone know the answer to my question from [244]?
Do referendums on constitutional change have to be yes/no questions or could there be a referendum that allowed a preferential vote on three options (eg. status quo, direct election, parliamentary appointment) ?
384
Thomarse – genocide is more than just mass murder, there is such a thing call cultural genocide. The Communists have moved hundreds of thousands of Han Chinese to Tibet in order to swamp the remaining native Tibetans and to destroy their culture and to ensure all the jobs go to the Han Chinese. Why do you think they built that railway to Tibet to ship more bloody Han Chinese into Tibet!
Its so sad that trade can stop us from criticisng the Communist Party of China, it’s a bloody dictatorship the people don’t chose who’ll be President only their Politburo it’s a disgrace I for one hope that China will be a Democracy one day but until then ill back Taiwan over China anyday, the Tibetan issue is a no brainer. If Rudd really was upset with the treatment of the Tibetans then he should raise it with Hu Jintao or the Chinese Premier not a bunch of students that’s a cop out!
Personally id rather not pursue an FTA with the Communist Chinese, i’d rather have an FTA with India!
shameless stealing for one of DeeCee’s posts over at http://www.politicsau.com/
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/libs-hope-answer-to-woes-is-online/2008/04/05/1207249537261.html
Boggles the mind
notes to WB:
the politicsau link needs an update
there should read three in the intro to this thread
Odds on Opposition Leader change this week.
http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/odds-shorten-on-turnbull-leading-libs/20080410-254j.html
Julie Bishop on good odds at $7.
‘Christopher Pyne, Malcolm Turnbull and Joe Hockey were the only senior former Howard government ministers who could use a computer, a Liberal party source said’
LOL
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/libs-hope-answer-to-woes-is-online/2008/04/05/1207249537261.html
I’m laughing with you Glen, I didn’t think it would be such a high number.
401 steve – good one Steve. LOL
What, Pyne is not on the list.
396 Glen
The authorities still got pretty riled up by Rudd’s speech!
I wouldn’t want an FTA with China either, until their workers were paid a fair wage. Howard must have wanted an FTA with China to help drive down wages.
Thomarse #404
Howard could then have called it ChineseChoices.
Kina,
I reckon Pyne could give Nelson a real run for his money in the search for Australia’s Least Preferred Prime Minister. The Libs would have to be crazy to nominate someone on such a small margin to lead them to the next election. A 1% swing against him in his seat and they’d lose their leader again!
I heard a farmer whinging about the way that the coalition used to go about arranging Free Trade Agreements. First they would agree that the US could sell there products here and later they would try to bargain for US farm subsidies to be reduced. As usual back to front in their efforts too help Australian farmers one would think.
406 [A 1% swing against him in his seat and they’d lose their leader again!]
A change of Liberal Leader is always a good thing Al. I’ve been a bit disappointed with how long this bloke has hung on. I like to see about four per year.
The next choice may also suffer being a bench warmer.
Apart from a brief flirtation with Lord Dolly of Mayo who was the last Liberal leader not to come from NSW or Victoria? (electorate wise – not state of origin).
steve
I had a chat to a nice lady who was part of the FTA agreement negotiations with China, she said the biggest hurdle in agriculture was getting the Chinese to understand that they were supposed to buy stuff from Australia – not just the other way round. (That and having to eat deep fried scorpions – a delicacy apparently).
Now there’s a symbolic form of consumption!
Queensland Treasurer thinks interest rates have risen enough.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23517635-5006786,00.html
Kevin too clever for Libs say the guardian (I love the guardian 100 out of 10 )
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/simon_tisdall/2008/04/the_rudd_stuff.html
413
If only the RBA measured it’s intervention against the ‘working families pain index’…
I think the RBA will say ‘enough’ when inflation is back below 3% and not looking like getting above it for 12 months or more, but he’s a treasurer, and he knows that, right?
Ruawake, the answer to your question at 410 is “nobody”. Include the UAP and you’ll have to go back to Joseph Lyons, a Tasmanian.
So interest rates rises are the fault of the reserve bank? Before the election they were the fault of coalition, now its the fault of reserve bank. Could someone tell me who is to blame? To me it is the coalition, the banks and the Labor Party for adopting policies which will hurt working people and farmers and not the rich one bit.
Marky at 417, I blame Murdoch myself (and am quite surprised you don’t).
Of course it could be the fault of Bracksy for building that Southern Cross station instead of distributing the money froma hot air balloon over teh most deprived areas of Melbourne.
You don’t think rich people work, or there are no rich farmers?
417 [Could someone tell me who is to blame?]
MM, I always blame inflation.
Sarcasm i love it…
To me interest rates hurt people paying of homes and small business people the most. The government should instead raise taxes for the wealthy because the ones who are fuelling this economic boom if such the thing presents itself. Taxes are a much fairer way to controlling economy than interest rates.
Yep now you mention Murdoch, a person who has brought down Labor governments whom do not do as he says, and the railway station well for all those people living on the fringes of Melbourne whom do not have public transport sorry but we must refit a beautiful station in the city first.
Meanwhile Lynne Kosky travels and her entourage travel the world first class, and for fifteen days cost the Victorian taxpayer some 93,644 dollars for a fifteen day trip, so much for not having the money for homeless shelters, or public housing or new railway stations in Mernda or outer Melbourne. And i thought these people were Labor people…
That’s the Marky we know and love – never fails to leave me feeling depressed about the world.
417 MM
The blame is easy – each person who has massively increased their debt in the last decade (or two).
Is it not obvious that most things bought on a credit card are close to 20% more expensive than the marked price?
When a house is advertised at $350K, it is in fact not worth $350K. Generally is at least twice that much.
Now we could just save up and not double the price of real estate or fridges from Harvey Norman through GE Money, but apparently that’s unfashionable.
Now I agree that the RBA toolkit is blunt. The more leveraged you are, the more blunt the result.
I actually blame the education system that can’t seem to teach these rather simple facts that can be expressed in less than 150 words. The eduction system is about training, not education. Principles people, principles.
Whole Systems Thinking.
onimod
Its the lack of housing supply that’s the cause of it all. people could afford to pay off fridges and plasmas if they are not paying these housing costs.
MArky, with Labor governments in every state and federally, how has Murdoch bought down Labor governments? Can you give examples?
And as for Lynne Kosky – do you really think $93K builds a railway sation or a homeless shelter? She stayed in a 370-euro a night hotel, which isn’t excessive for Paris. Sure I’ve stayed in places that were cheaper than that, but with no internet connection, no room for working and certainly I’d be pissed off if my work made me stay there. So you expect her to backpack and use a Eurailpass?
So what we do Chris is accept it. Yep bad public policy gets the contempt it deserves. Public policy should be about improving our economic base and our values instead it is now about helping certain people above everyone else. The facts need to be highlighted because what we have now are governments and people accepting the stupidity of poor planning and policy and people who use our taxes for their benefit and not for the overall benefit of the community.
Sorry cannot accept people who go into government with good intentions and leave where they are the only beneficiaries. We deserve better than this.
What upsets me is the good old IMF, who got is all into this economic pickle we are in concerning debt in the western world through their economic rationalists nonsense and they have the gualle to state that the large private indebtness in the western world including Australia could cause severe economic problems in future. Fantastic
That’s right Chris, we cant have our people running around Europe like backpackers. But the fact they can get taxpayer funded alcahol makes me mad.
and alcohol
C’mon, you can’t be serious? You expect someone to go on an overseas trip looking at transport systems and have to pay for her own food and drink? Far worse happens in business. I don’t think it’s unreasonable. Imagine the outcry if it had been paid for by one (or both) of the bidders.
You guys need ot find out what doctors and lawyers get upto with ‘conferences’ that are then tax-deductible and we end up paying for. $93K is nothing for at least 3 people for 15 days.
423
Yes and no nath
Housing growth has outstripped population growth for some time now.
It’s the fact that culturally we’ve decided to live in smaller groups, or on our own which is the underlying cause to your simple supposition.
House sizes have doubled, while occupant numbers have halved in the last 2 decades. The fact that a lot of us can afford to have a second holiday house is skewing these figures a little, but the population within established Australian suburbs has been on a steady decline for some time.
And back to Marky’s blame game – no-one seems to have noticed that block sizes have halved too – where do you think the IMF’s 62% overvalued figure comes from?
I wasn’t really thinking about overseas trips, fair enough then. But when in Australia a cardinal rule should be: buy your own f***ing piss.
Here are the consumer sentiment figures that came out this week.
http://www.westpac.com.au/manage/wrap.nsf/vPdfUrls/51CBCE996592C0E9CA25742600009028/$File/er20080409BullConsumerSentiment.pdf?OpenElement
onimod
‘Housing growth has outstripped population growth for some time now.’
this cant be true. at least not in melb. we’ve got a thousand people a week coming in.
Onimod, whilst i totally agree with your views, i must add that the simple problem is the move away from government doing and owning things has not helped the increase of indebtness. Regulation is also another reason and the very lack of it.
If governments owned assets or supplied them we would not have to raise money to buy them, hence i can remember the times when our governments did things for us now it is all about the market. It is strange the rise in indebtness seems to be a common problem in the western countries to have massively deregulated their economies over the last three decades. Time for governments to start providing things again like university education, phone services( broadband) and expecting the wealthier groups our their to pay higher taxes.
And Chris politics is about perception and this may be simple for you and me to understand but the average punter well they will look at it and start to wonder is this government becoming arrogant and aloof and i am afraid to say it is.
Water- problems is their area in regards to policy planning and development and be able to negotiate and compromise with people.
Transport- wasted dollars on big projects which are now causing significant problems, overall.
And then their is the Channel Deepening and a Safari Park at Werribee Zoo,
put simply the perception is starting to occur that big business comes first and the people second.
one more try
http://www.westpac.com.au/manage/wrap.nsf/vPdfUrls/51CBCE996592C0E9CA25742600009028/$File/er20080409BullConsumerSentiment.pdf?OpenElement
Must applaud Rudd for showing immense courage over Tibet, it took guts to tell the Chinese what they are doing and yep on this he at least stated the facts, unlike Howard who rarely said anything.
396
Glen @ 396 -
If Rudd really was upset with the treatment of the Tibetans then he should raise it with Hu Jintao or the Chinese Premier not a bunch of students that’s a cop out!
Rudd has indeed raised it publicly with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao in the political epicentre of China, the Great Hall of the People. Do you ever get anything right, Glen?
Makes a big change from the bloke you revere who back in 1997 agreed to limit criticism of China’s human rights record to a behind closed door annual meeting between minor officials in some backroom. I’m guessing that neither of the flunkeys spoke the other’s language.
Ah, glenbaiting. Its good to see the traditional sports live on.
432
regionally nath, you are right, but you’ll definitely find that the population of most of the established Melbourne suburbs is definitely dropping, and that’s not helping.
here’s some back of the napkin figures:
Australian population: 20,743,300 (26 January 2007 – ABS)
Australian population growth: 1.4% (March 2008 – ABS) or roughly 300,000 people
Residential building approvals: 13,000 per month (reference below – this one needs more verification) or roughly 156,000 new homes annually.
Simple calculation says that’s enough home if each home is to house 2 people doesn’t it?
The unspoken problem is that there’s massive cultural change happening that’s resulting in less people in each dwelling. Divorces, Grannie doesn’t live out the back any more, and people just choosing to live on their own are things that that are affecting us all.
(reference: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/31/1992934.htm)
Did John Howard ever state anything about human rights abuses in Tibet Glen?
Howard said when questioned about housing affordability “I don’t hear people complaining that their house has increased in value” .
Thank goodness he is now in the garbage can of history.
interesting stuff onimod, but what about infill, that must make a difference in melb with all the units being made from formerly single detached dwellings. I see your point about lifestyle changes etc, but there cant be a thousand homes in melb being built in a week. And even if these facts are right we still need more houses. buggered if i can work it out. my head hurts.
Via Andrew landeryou, some interesting news about the Victorian Libs.
http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/2008/04/done-former-howard-chief-of-staff-tony.html
439 [Did John Howard ever state anything about human rights abuses in Tibet]
didn’t want to upset anybody apparently.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2003/s926710.htm
433 marky
yep – agreed
I just worry about the idea that a ’smart’ government can drag a ‘dumb’ population along. I think we’d all be better off with a ’smart’ population because I rather think that a lot of people on the government side of the equation fit in to the ‘dumb’ side of the ledger.
We’ve all had experience here in trying to take someone from the ‘dumb’ side of the ledger along on the bus ride, haven’t we?
Howard isn’t in the garbage can of history, he’s flying around the world picking up cheques as he goes. cheeky bastard.
Posting from him indoors machine tonight as mine is off at the machine doctor, my confuser having said “no”, in no uncertain terms, to functioning in any way. Anyway, Marky, sport, while the Victorian health system and its mental health system, about which I know something, might benefit from some extra $, I think the relevant Ministers (Health & Mental Health) are entitled to do some overseas learning, and I don’t begrudge them those opportunities. The initial reforms in mental health service delivery in Victoria was informed by what was being done elsewhere in the world, at a time when the internet was less available, and so, travel to inform yourself, was important. How much knowledge of what actually works these days that is available via the net, and specifically Library databases, add much to policy makers capacity to form reasoned and informed policy, but I’d still argue for eyeballing things directly, much like I argue for psychiatrists doing home visits, and when they do, they’re converted to the direct experience.
430
nath
Get over the free piss. It’s appeal wears off after you’ve had a gut full.
Opposition backflip on aged care.
THE Federal Opposition has left the door open for nursing home residents who need high-level care to pay “bonds”, overturning a decade of staunch opposition to the controversial idea.
The Opposition spokeswoman for ageing Margaret May said new funding approaches were needed to rescue the industry, which faced crippling overheads.
The industry says such “bonds” or deposits would not seriously financially disadvantage most people.
Nursing home residents who could afford it would hand over a lump sum allowing the provider to draw annual interest, then return the capital to the patient’s estate.
A financial analysis of the industry by global accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers identified a $5.7 billion funding gap opening up over the next decade as a direct result of the spiralling costs of high-level care.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23512669-953,00.html
From Howard’s bio on the Washington Speakers Bureau website:
He delivered economic vision and strategies for international security that raised Australia’s profile on the world stage while gaining the respect and gratitude of the world.
A better version:
He terrified his constituents with economic voodooism and reckless, allegedly alliance-strengthening, ventures in the middle east that raised Australia’s profile on the world stage while gaining the mockery and disgusted disbelief of the world.
Okay, this is a tad dramatic, but …
441 nath
This is really general, but the infill in most capital cities isn’t keeping up with the population reduction in those same areas. Where did you grow up and move to when you left home? How many schools are in Hawthorn now compared to 15 years ago?
Sorry I haven’t got up to date figures for most cities, but I did see the figures for Canberra less than 6wks ago and I can absolutely confirm population reduction in almost all of what used to be the extent of Canberra 20 years ago.
School closures are usually the best way to track it – see a school close and you know you’ve got a community and population problem. The catch 22 is that once the school is gone you’ve just confirmed future population reduction as it becomes extremely unattractive for young families..
A former boss of mine used to refer to those areas as ‘God’s country’ – the area where eventually the almighty plucks souls at will….
It’s not JUST a supply or affordability problem – it’s a cultural problem.
Whole systems thinking.
What is Nelson on about with this subsidy business in an interview on his Listening Tour today? Once there used to be a subsidy to encourage people to use LPG because it was a cheaper, and cleaner fuel.
In the 2003 budget Costello introduced an excise on LPG and ethanol that is to begin on 1 July 2008. I do believe that the “subsidy” that Nelson is on about is to protect people from the costs associated with the increased prices due to the new excise the Liberals imposed.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/13/1071125711088.html
“But the truth of it is, Joseph, that when we get emissions trading, carbon trading, we will almost certainly see the price of petrol go up further and I think we need also to make sure that that LPG subsidy is maintained and kept. We just can’t afford to lose that $2000 subsidy for people who want to go to cheaper fuel.”
http://www.liberal.org.au/info/news/detail/20080410_NelsoninterviewwithJosephThomsenABCGoulburnMurrayRadio.php
This is typical of another tactic the Liberals used year after year. Set up a program with great fanfare but fund it shortterm so it will collapse. From ABC interview in Goulborne.
Well, speaking of losing things, there’s a local Pharmica therapy programme that has been federally funded and that funding continues up until June this year. It’s based in Wodonga and among other things it coordinates local nurses and GPs to help addicts get off drugs like heroin. When that funding runs out there’s no state-based funding, there may be no federal funding and it may be forced to close its doors. What’s your suggestion about what should happen to programmes like that?
DR NELSON:
That sort of programme must be maintained at all costs. I cannot for the life of me understand why it wouldn’t be and I will be very, very happy to take that cause up personally. I know that our local MPs would be working on it but look I’ll do whatever I can. I’ll get the details of that, Joseph, and get stuck into that.
ominod, my solution: a few hundred 20 story apartment buildings near railway stations in melb. lets get em built, chuck in all the singles and service workers. problem solved, done and dusted.
452 nath
It’s not quite that simple but you’re not far off.
New York is the most ’sustainable’ city on the planet; Australia has well and truly outgrown our open space addiction.
And back to marky’s problem with provision of services: here in Australia we’ve sold off our public space too, which means we get whatever the minimum that the developers think they can get away with. Having said that, if we don’t allow density then the developers have even less to spend on the public space, so it’s almost like shooting your second foot off.
Density has to rise if we’re going keep up our living standards. How profitable (to the city, society) do you think the squinty’s are who drive 2hrs into the Sydney CBD each day and 2hrs home each night?
Damn it!
I’ve tried everything else but had no luck
I don’t suppose any of you know where my car keys are?
There was an article in The Age a couple of years back by Kenneth Davidson (maybe? I can’t remember), where he asked why there weren’t multiple storey developments along the bay all the way to Frankston along the Frankston railway line. Upgrade the line to one that goes at a decent speed like anywhere else in the western world and you have effectively created a growth corridor.
I think it’s only NIMBYism and groups like SOS (Save our Suburbs for any non-Melburnians) taht prevent govts taking difficult decisions like that. It makes sense to me. I have an apartment in a 5-storey block in Fitzroy – I certainly don’t mind living in a high-density environment.
Classified
I’m totally atheist and come from a Protestant background anyway but find (as my Proddy mother did before me) that St Anthony is still the saint to pray to when it comes to finding things.
I think it might be ‘cos he’s so miffed that the Catholics desainted him.
Otherwise –
(i) look in the car (on the sunglasses theory)
(ii) visualise where you last had them. If necessary, go back and stand there and think about what you did next.
(iii) ask spouse/significant other/cat/dog/child whether anybody moved them
(iv) pick things up.
(v) throw a tanty (I always thought these were childish and a waste of time. However, last time I lost something irretrievably, I decided to throw one…picked up something from the floor to throw and found missing item underneath…)
Oh, and I spent hours looking for something the other day. Had looked in the ‘obvious place’ (a drawer) half a dozen times. KNEW it wasn’t there, but tried again anyway…emptied contents of drawer and put them back one item of at a time.
It was there, after all – I just hadn’t looked properly.
Persevere.
Chris there was another article in the Age today.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/look-200-extra-trains-without-a-massive-bill/2008/04/09/1207420486451.html
Zoom a big thank you!
After much searching and retracing steps (this method I also use and habitually preach to family members) as a way to find things… I came up with zero… So I traced back in my mind what happened AFTER I noticed the keys where missing….
::sets a scene::
ME: Anybody know where my keys are?
Kid 1 : nuh
Kid 2 : what?
Anybody seen my car keys?
K1 : nuh
K2 ;whaat?…um na
Me: mutter mutter, “where the f%^$K are they, jebbus …mutter mutter
Me: Get up of the couch and LOOK… at this point both kids get off the couch and hurriedly pretend to be concerned and look for missing keys… next bit is important : THE CAT is swooshed off the couch too (with usual nasty looks from said cat)
Nothing is found… much searching goes on by me (kids go to bed etc) but nothing appears
I think… sh1t, I’ve got to be at airport in 1hr, must leave in next 10mins or will be late… search more…mutter a lot and eventually decide to post “missing keys” on PB
Time drags on…search everywhere but FAIL to notice EVIL CAT looking slyly at me…
At wits end give up and decide must organize taxi for airport pickup… just one more search b4 I call cab…
F#(K I yell loudly scaring everything for miles around… INCLUDING EVIL CAT!!!… Who jumps up and runs away
Exposing keys it was lying on …!!!!!
I really really hate that cat but I have to admit…
This time it won
456 Chris
You know it doesn’t even have to travel a current corridor – you can unlock a whole new development corridor with the right planning.
Vancouver is a wonderful example of a new transport link can invigorate a city. their monorail built for the 88 expo runs diagonally across a traditional grid city that gave tremendous development impetus. You can live in an apartment anywhere down the line and you are a maximum of 40 minutes from the centre of town.
459
the Classic statistic I heard was that there were more trains and greater frequency in Melbourne and Sydney in 1930 than there are now.
It’s almost like the rail administrators have never seen a decent train system. Bigger trains aren’t the way to increase patronage – frequency is. Smaller trains, every 5 minutes – simple & predictable, but then the way the contracts are set up there’s no incentive to increase patronage; just the opposite.
Lateline
What happened to Uhlmann’s attitude tonight – he’s given it a holiday! Yipee.
Oh, and Gosper is a first class git
Steve,
Thanks, I saw that article, but the original was talking more about the fact that the potential of the strip running all the way down to Frankston is pretty much untapped. The problem is upgrading the line to a standard that could cope with the numbers involved, increasing the speed and frequency of the trains.
There you go…the obvious place.
Should have prayed to St Anth.
Glad you found them!!
lol…hmmm.. I suspect your on the cats side
Very possibly.
You realise, of course, that (v) worked in the end.
Glen @ 396,
I appreciate that the Chinese government is a regime that democrats should hold in deep distaste. But I would be very wary of saying that Rudd should abandon efforts for a free trade deal just because that government abuses its citizens’ fundamental rights. A lot of people (including me) genuinely believe that the more China integrates with the rest of the world economically, the greater the internal reform pressures on the Chinese government will be. Remember that in Indonesia it wasn’t the destitute who challenged the Suharto regime on the streets, leading to its demise. The protests started in the Jakarta universities, with the sons and daughters of the new middle class.
We should be even warier of promoting a free trade deal with India simply to indicate our displeasure with China. An agreement with India may be a good idea in and of itself – I’m a free trader. But I’m concerned by the way some people (largely conservatives) are starting to openly canvass the idea that we draw India into an informal alliance against China. I can think of few strategic developments that would be worse for us than a confrontation between India and China. That particular relationship will be delicate enough without the West trying to egg on the Indian China-hawks (in the process making the Chinese government even more suspicious and allowing that government to rally its people against encirclement). In my opinion, Australia should be doing everything it can to convince the Americans that this idea is dumb, dumb, dumb and will be directly counterproductive. We certainly shouldn’t be doing it ourselves.
(Incidentally, this view is shared by at least one Indian diplomat in Australia, who I met. I mentioned a Greg Sheridan article promoting the India-against-China line and he just about bit my head off denouncing it (and Greg Sheridan). He was genuinely peeved, it seemed, and quite open about it. The Indians, one suspects, know full well when they’re being used and don’t much like it.)
Thomarse on the China FTA,
I think ruawake’s comment on the actual negotiations says it all. Australia is pretty much open to Chinese manufacturing already – nothing will change on that front. From our side, there’s much to be gained in sectors like agriculture, if we can pull it off.
The main thing I fear is that Nelson and co will try to twist any success to promote their idea that Rudd is somehow downgrading the American Alliance and kowtowing to the Chinese just because he supports good relations between China and the West and is prepared to do something about it.
Classified, see what happens when you make the cat scarper?
From D.T.D’s wire
Dennis Spam-in-a-can
Reports are coming in that local PB poster’ Classifieds’ family pet life may not be all that it seems. “Local tray litter” reports are saying…
Source’s report (Dog’s name removed by court order) “hey, he‘s an ass but at least I get free biscuits”..
Other reports are coming in that “the cat” has lodged a protest via channels.
These are testing times for Classified and his cat. Whilst always happy to encourage the hosting of “the games” the latest bout of “hide his keys” has caused some difficulties in a meeting between the two.
It’s is well worth noting that whilst “the dog” has seen a huge improvement in his PPM (preferred pet measure) due to his general cuddliness and not shitting in flower pots lately.. “The cat” has been basically pissing Classified off…
” The dog” also impressed this reporter with the following when he was quoted as saying “well, my opponent is pretty slick, good looking, smarter and much better at politics, not to mention getting himself seen in all sorts of right places around the neighborhood. Me personally, I’ve been sticking around home, not saying or doing much and generally keeping people’s blankets warm”
Over to you
Ahh, so the cat is out there engaging with the wider world whilst the dog is an isolationist, who keeps its tenuous hold on power by sucking up to the boss.
Two staggering poll results from Rasmussen in Montana and Alaska, bearing in mind that Bush won each of them by over 20 points in 2004. I don’t put that much faith in them, but maybe it’s a sign of the 50 State Strategy that Obama has been trying to push.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/alaska/election_2008_alaska_presidential_election
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/montana/election_2008_montana_presidential_election
I doubt either of these states will turn blue in November, but polls like this could force McCain to spend a lot more time shoring up red states than attacking the purples (much like Howard was forced to do last year).
Dammit, wrong thread. Sorry Billbowe.
We usually find the TV remote under the dog.
Other good places (for future reference):
1. In the laundry.
2. On the basin next to the dunny.
3. The most unlikely spot you can think of.
Penny Wong is also in Beijing. Does anyone know if she speaks Mandarin? (Chris Uhlmann just said on ABC radio that he didn’t know. He said he was going to ask her yesterday but instead complimented her on what she was wearing.)
Chris Uhlmann obviously has the same keenly honed sense of what’s important as Downer:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/080410/2/16flr.html
- apparently Rudd has been foolishly concentrating on trivial issues such as human rights when there’s a couple of pandas for Adelaide Zoo at stake!!
These so-called MSM political experts never learn. After having been shown to be so out of touch and biased with their coverage and commentary in the year leading up to the election, they continue to look for something to spin against Rudd. At what point might they realise that, hey, he has record poll numbers, a good team, sound policies, and maybe he might just be doing a good job??
Al: the Democrats won a Senate seat off the Republicans in Montana in 2006, so it’s not completely unlikely that Obama could make things competitive there.
Chris Ullhman, or Chris “Toolman” as I prefer to call him – has there been a more inept ABC political correspondent in the history of the national broadcaster?
I’d take David Spears over Chris, and that’s saying something.
I guess the MSM is pissed off Rudd’s trip is going so well, that’s why we’re getting more crap today about some company Terese Rein owns(rolls eyes).
#476
I thought Uhlmann was very good on AM in the election campaign. He went in hard at everyone, even to the extent that I wouldn’t be surprised if some pollies were shaking in their boots at the prospect of facing up to him.
Turnbull: proposed budget cuts NOT ENOUGH
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/11/2214029.htm?section=justin
Excellent! Now when they deliver the budget cuts Rudd and Swan can say the opposition would have cut more. Well done Mal
Rudd was right and Shanahan was wrong… says Shanahan.
I nearly choked on my boiled egg this morning as I saw the Shanahan headline, Coup for old China hand.
Talk about fulsome praise! And from Dennis himself! The article concludes:
But we should cast our eyes further back, to another second Friday of April: Friday, April 13, 2007 – exactly one year ago – to see what Dennis predicted would happen:
I guess Dennis hoped we’d forget the earlier article I (found here: http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/dennisshanahan/index.php/theaustralian/comments/one_man_band_rudd_risky_as_chinas_mate/), in favour of the latter one from today (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23520990-5013871,00.html).
Well, I didn’t.
What with Henderson and Albrechtsen both dismissing Salutegate as a storm in a teacup, Greg Sheridan raving about Rudd’s brilliant success on his world trip, Chris Uhlmann being almost decipherable in his dispatches from overseas, and now Shanahan doing a quiet change of horses on Rudd and China, we are only left with Brendan Nelson waffling on about Rudd being too “public” in his criticism of China over Tibet, Brandis shaking with rage at Rudd’s not bowing to the Queen (he did, anyway), plus a few troglodytes at Pies’ and Bolt’s blogs raving on into empty space about how Kevin is a national embarrassment and should be shot for treason immediately upon his return. As the swamp drains competition for the remaining water becomes intense and loud, but ultimately they’re arguing about a speck in the middle of the desert. I saw that on the Disney channel. Everybody knows it, but the RWDBs.
It seems there is a re-alignment in the stars of our Commentocracy. Perhaps word has come down from upon high (Murdoch for one is, uhm, “interested” in China), perhaps the scales have been lifted from their eyes. Whatever the mechanism, Rudd is suddenly – and almost universally – flavour of the month, and you don’t need to book a table at Portia’s to sip from the bowl.
BB @ 479,
How long before they claim that it is good that Rudd has finally got on board with their view on life?
It seems that some of our free thinking independant political journalists like backing a winner. Probably keeps them in a job.
But now, shock, horror, Rudd has failed to decare a dormant company (which belongs to his wife) in the register of interests.There was no obligation for him to have done so, but what a scoop!.Ninemsn has it as banner headlines.
Graveyard shift in the fertiliser factory.
We need “The Independent” newspaper here. They liked Rudd.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/kevin-rudd-rocks-the-world–a-hrefhttpmediafairfaxcomaurid37028bannabel-crabbba/2008/04/11/1207856773295.html
I hope your right BB but I think they simply had no choice but to bend-over a bit, they will be back to being d!(ks in no time. Unlike a lot of people though I don’t see the dodgy anti-Rudd reporting as a problem, it’s been that way for awhile now and the Ruddinator just keeps on going, clearing all before him and getting on with his thing.
The despair in the opposition, the International reception, the strut in the Gov’s stride, even the grudging respect he occasionally. gets from the MSM all tell me that this boy is firmly in his groove
GB (482) I think you should also allow credit to the SMH for covering The Independent’s editorial and for it (SMH) giving prominence to the story in its online editions this morning.
484 David – I agree David. I don’t have any problems with the SMH, it’s that Daily Pornograph, it’s a rag.
That’s true David. I don’t have any problem with the SMH.
Read all of this article and tell me it doesnt make you proud of KRudd and proud to be an Aussie.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7337940.stm
I dont think Howard would have the “smarts” to walk such a diplomatic tight rope – just look at his comments on the US Democrats last year.
GB (486) Greetings Gary I hope you are enjoying life in a ‘Howard-less’ Australia. My favourite newspaper is the Mx which I pick up at Wynyard station here in Sydney just before my afternoon commute on Morrie’s (poorly administered) public transport transport system. If I want to read about politics I go to the internet including but not limited to, this splendid site.
The Mx (no doubt there is an equivalent in Melbourne) has excellent coverage of just about anything except politics (gossip, travel, sport and the occasional ‘pornographic’ news stories). During last year’s election campaign, the Mx very helpfully ‘warned’ its readers on the front page whether there were any ‘election stories’. Usually there were only one or two (sometimes none at all) and surprise surprise those election stories were mostly favourable to (then) Opposition Leader, Kevin Michael Rudd. This is a newspaper which many ‘low involvement’ voters read so any favourable stories for the ALP during an election campaign came to the attention of a key segment of voters at just the right time.
Rudd has done very well indeed and I think the proof of the pudding has been the sideshow “issues” by the press and Nelson’s silence.
Eh?
Next to the story on Therese Rein’s defunct company, the ABC web site has the following box full of goodies:
What the…..?
How in the world are early-2007 pre-election “scandals” that came to nothing at all except increased poll numbers for Labor in any way relevant to today’s story?
“34 weeks ago”, “47, 57, 62 weeks ago”?
Either someone has seriously screwed up at ABC On Line, or they’re so far gone in the head with disgust that Labor won the election they can’t seem to forget that it’s.all.over.now.and.Labor.won.
I wrote earlier this week that the aim of the Howard Hugging Journalists was to publish every tiny scrap of “news” that had even miniscule potential to be called “scandal” about Rudd, in the hope that one day they could all be published side-by-side to establish “form” on Rudd’s behalf; a sort-of we told you he was no godd” litany of non-events that together they hope might equal more than the sum of the parts.
This is a perfect example of it: one story about Therese Rein’s defunct, non-trading company, and we get all the trimin’s, icing on the cake, hundreds-and-thousands plus a dollop of Burkegate Ice Cream with chocolate sauce next to it, supplied in the name of “balance”, ABC-style.
Seriously weird and seriously outrageous.
New morgan poll 63.5 to 36.5, a massive 27% lead.
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4286/
According to Antonio some time ago its just the work of a search engine and nothing at all sinister.
Its just pure coincidence, random and unbiased, that nearly all the headlines have an anti-ALP slant.
Its all in your mind BB!
488 David – Sounds like a good read David and not because of the favourable treatment given to Rudd. If there is a similar type of paper here I haven’t found it yet.
I’m not critical of papers or journalists for criticising the government, governments should be scrutanised but I’m getting the feeling at the moment that Rudd is being unfairly dealt with by some because they don’t like him personally, not for what he is doing or saying. Some criticisms have just been downright purile. A paper like Mx is probably the way to go at the moment.
Our transport system is not much better than yours. The government is trying to do something about it. If only we had a strong opposition that would try to provide solutions rather than just criticisng everything the government tries to put up. We need answers. If anyone has the magic solution please provide it. The trouble is noone has.
New thread up on the Morgan poll.