That non-existent Morgan poll discussed in the previous post has now shown its face four days behind schedule. The phone survey of an unusually small sample of 618 respondents supports last week’s Newspoll finding that some of the gloss has come off Labor’s lead, which is at 47 per cent to 37 per cent on the primary vote and 58-42 on two-party preferred. This is down from 62-38 at the Morgan face-to-face poll published the previous Friday and 62.5-37.5 at the previous phone poll from mid-April, and is on both measures Labor’s weakest result since the election.
In other news, News Limited reports that Alexander Downer is “expected to quit Parliament within days”, having “delayed his departure until after Treasurer Wayne Swan tonight outlines Labor’s first Budget in 12 years, so as to avoid distracting from the Coalition’s response to it”. This of course will mean a by-election for his South Australian seat of Mayo.
424 Comments
I’d like to make an early prediction that the Liberals will increase their margin in Mayo once ol’ Alex has left.
I dunno. Apparently Dolly was quite popular in his own seat. Of couse, I have no idea why…
The silverest of silver spoons? Though I do remember that memorable election where the Democrats actually threatened in Mayo. I can still remember Natasha Stott-Despoja breathlessly talking about how “this is Democrat heartland”.
What I’m curious about is why the Courier-Mail got the story. It’s a Queensland newspaper. Mayo’s in SA. *shrugs* Maybe this is their idea of keeping it “under wraps” – if they really didn’t want to distract from the Budget response, why was it leaked? Assuming the reporter’s not just causing mischief.
Maybe it genuinely leaked by accident. If you’re retiring you would probably do things that would make it hard to hide.
I think all the News papers have it.
Maybe they’re hoping for a budget bounce from a tough Swan budget? If Swan delivers on his promises Labor’s vote might well go up again though. I can just imagine the Liberal response if the budget is reasonable:
“I think the way Labor has delivered on its promises in this budget is despicable and a betrayal of every coalition candidate in coming by-elections”.
Any thoughts on who Labor’s candidate would be in Mayo? They’d have to be a chance.
“so as to avoid distracting from”
except that now it is a distraction…
“I can just imagine the Liberal response if the budget is reasonable:”
They have already started, calling it the ‘anti mother and pro bludger’ budget. I heard Abbott, nelson and Allbull on telly.
how could the public vote these obviously compassionate people out.
tony why did you wait so long to show your heart,though i suspect your motives are less than humanitarian.
Can anyone please tell me how the Morgan Qualitative survey about Labor’s Economic credentials, Nelson’s and Rudd’s popularity etc is any use? The percentages quoted are well within the rusted-on voters of both sides, and it is what they would have said anyway irrespective of any present circumstances.
So honeymoon is over?? Still 58 to 42%. However, drop has to be related to Budget jitters.
It’s just a pity Abbott based his comments on an article that was total BS.
7 – It would good if it was pro-Poll bludger.
How about it Willy?
Basically the Liberal Party could stand a donkey in Mayo and still win the seat. The John Schumann happening was an aberration. It is very conservative country with just a tinge of Green/Red here and there. The electorate is still loaded with older generation voting Liberals who still worship Sir Thomas Playford as though he was still the Premier of South Australia. If the Labor Party think they will win a by-election in Mayo, then they are being totally delusional.
I heard there was a high proportion of fishnet stocking factories in Mayo
Brenton.
isnt that the attitude that was taken at first in Bennelong?— after what happened there i don’t think any fortress on either side is impregnable!
pmsl mr. Squiggle, i think you may be right.
*Basically the Liberal Party could stand a donkey in Mayo and still win the seat. *
as indeed they did.
14 Bennelong is a city electorate, Mayo is not!
15 Tassieannie, you are correct, all Liberal candidates are donkeys! But I like ‘for real’ donkeys and not Liberal candidates!
13 If only there were fishnet stocking factories in Mayo, I would think there were possibilities for the future! Berlin here we come!!!!!
I was born and lived for 28 years in the Mayo electorate! I know the type of people who live there. I went to primary school with the current Member of Parliament who represents the state seat within Mayo . If he can be elected then the ALP can have little chance! Old stamping ground, know it well. Also, even though a possible Federal by-election , there are hints of the Rann Government starting to be very on the nose! WORKCOVER!!!!! Very unpopular Attorney General and Treasurer!!!!! etc etc etc
Turnbull on, got up and walked away, so f*ng irrelevant, blustering and ’swingeing’ his way through. Great effort Swannie, leave these toads drowning in your wake.
At long last we have a Govt with some nation-building ideals, as opposed to the disgusting welfare for the rich mentality of Rattus Rattus and Co.
It was a Bob Carr budget. Didn’t offend anyone, but wont do anything for the economy either.
if Toolman on the ABC couldnt really criticise it, it must be a good budget
17
A good night for Swan to post his two of his best performances.
He kept it simple and clear generally. The speech was well written. The ALP team was well briefed and at least looked like a team compared to the bunch of schoolboys over the other side. His interview with Kerry was spot on – one very cool cucumber tonight.
Allbull needs to cut down on the coffee, jargon and extremism. At some point he’s going to have to get back to basics to convince anyone outside his own group of friends he’s got any economic credentials whatsoever, because the outrageously blatant political spin world he’s in at the moment might work on the converted, but it’s doing nothing for those on the fence or the other side. Maybe he is safer in the leadership and away from the treasury?
It was a nothing no frills budget, which was about ensuring that Labor can run the economy the way the markets and media moguls want them to- conservatively, allowing the rich to continue to benefit from government handouts.
Turnbull, on the one hand he has been carrying on that the Government should not cut spending and tonight he is saying the complete opposite- what does he stand for in regards to Labors’ economic plans? It seems he is confused or wanting to have his bread buttered on both sides.
19
I reeeeally like the way Toolman suggested Rudd thank the Chinese for the revenue, like it’s something to apologise for.
Is he a racist, or a dangerous idiot? Either way – it’s hardly chief political correspondent style.
Wouldn’t you just love to be on an overseas delegation with him? Talk about embarrassing.
Any of the big summit ideas in the budget?
ShowsOn at 24 ‘A Week with no Morgan’ thread.
I do believe I heard today Costello telling Sam, I assume Maiden, that he loves her, he really does.
I am sure Michelle is endeared. Yet she, unlike another, will continue to provide vision, perspective not available to the unspectacular journalists and reporters who have yet to realise that the Australian world has changed.
Particularly unilluminating, Chris Ullman, rounding at the end of the Budget, saying that the Treasurer needs to send a big thank you to China. Cannot imagine that he would be saying that to the olden days Treasurer.
And wasn’t it pleasant to have a Treasurer who represents bread, not circuses.
The day was only marred by the unusual and contemptible appearance of yesterday’s man.
Turnbull with Kerry O’Brien now, proving his non-economic-genius status:
“Its a high-taxing, high-spending inflationary budget”. Well even if thats true (and spending growth has been reduced so part B is false) how is high taxing inflationary? The whole point of standard economic theory is to raise tax when times are good, save the surplus, and spend it when times are bad. That is NOT inflationary. Increasing tax means people have less money to spend, hence less inflationary spending. Whether you agree with Swan’s initiatives or not, it isn’t inflationary. Arguably he could have gone further on spending cuts, but its certainly less inflationary than the last few Howard/Costello budgets. Turnbull was never an economist, just a salesman for share funds, and it shows.
For two years Heather Ridout was carrying on out workchoices and how we needed to cut wages and introduce workplace reform, continually she espoused the Coalitions’ IR reforms and now Labor is appointing her to a number of reviews and committees.. Pathetic.
onimod, I have a totally irrational desire to slap Uhlmann with a puce herring, possibly a beige yurt, something with a bit more grunt than a bitterfly, that’s for sure.
I felt the same way about Nullman’s comment, so totally uncalled for and nonsensical. When are we going to clean these termites and neo-con parasites out of the once great ABC?
Marky, remember to keep your friends close and you enemies even closer. This lot are no idiots or uneducated, unlike say, the pineapple and chicken party. Sniggle.
Unfortunately not in the to distance future…
http://www.abc.net.au/corp/board/board_members.htm
Talking about the ABC what did they get in the budget? I can’t seem to find it anywhere. It’s a great budget leaving the Liberals with nowhere to go. Can someone email a copy to Glen?
26 marky – Linden Baynes Johnson once said that it was better to have your enemies inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in. A very good strategy, obviously one that is a a little too sophisticated for a far lefty like yourself.
The problem is that your enemies can pass information on to others.
A budget about politics and not about vision, yep love these budgets…
marky marky marky
It must be disappointing for you, that Heather Ridout turned tail the moment the election result was known. Looked, as I recall, on Lateline, absolutely delighted.
She, if you recall, was the one who did not, not support business funding of pro Work Choice legislation. I certainly did not agree with her pro Liberal otherwise stance, but maybe that’s what they do.
And maybe what they do, unlike certain journalists, is get it.
As the Vic Libs are demonstrating only all too clearly, marky, your friends can do the same.
And the WA Liberals with Sniffwell.
So marky marky, how would you have them do it? Spend like the drunken sailor, drive the dollar down the plughole, force interest rates even higher. They know that they must act fiscally responsibly in order to have any chance of re-election. They have now highlighted just how bad the Libs were as economic managers, it was only the right wing media that spun the reverse and protected them.
This government had no, repeat, no choice but to bring down this budget, most of their choices vanished the day that the Rodent announced his irresponsible tax cuts. Politics is still, and always, the art of the possible.
Basil, I’m with you on the ABC. Oddly, there are people like Red Symmons on Melbourne 774, who are IMV, genuinely funny, also do some genuine interviews, who are under-rated as compared to to other presenters. It’s weird, because I think you get more out of listening to Red than you do from Uhlmann.
All parties have people within their ranks who stab one another in the back, it is just that some are better at hiding such behaviour than others.
Bet you right now labor front benchers are criticising or carping parts of the budget or asking why their ideas were not noticed. That is politics Zoom.
The factional office men in electoral offices do it every day, devising strategies to get members on side and to get votes for the next internal election. Politics is not about the public it is about factional number crunching.
Hit it on the head Basil when you said right wing media, and that is what this budget more or less is and the right wing media will love it…
Politics is about life, marky. I haven’t been in a workplace, sporting or service club, parents association, kindergarten committee, you name it, where politics hasn’t come into play – and that includes backstabbing AND number crunching.
But we were discussing the advisability or otherwise of bringing ‘enemies’ into the circle. It’s always a risk, of course, but one of those which pay off big time if your enemy is ‘turned’.
In my experience, more often than not it works. Being asked to come into the tent when you expected to stay outside is very flattering.
This excellent article was linked by Kina on the previous thread, worth reposting here for a commentary on the drunken sailors:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/what-shall-we-do-with-drunken-sailors-hangover/2008/05/12/1210444334544.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
marky, and the number crunching is about what? Who will best represent the views of the electorate? Compared to the selection process of the Libs. or Nats. ? The Labor Party may be flawed, but if you say you are are a Labor supporter, I don’t understand why you are unremittingly critical.
Yes correct, it happens everywhere.
Having someone like Ridout on a committee may also mean that your ideas are compromised or the actual idea you want is totally disregarded hence your enemies idea gets up. And my fear is that Ridouts’ ideas or ideological leanings could white ant the governments philsophical values.
A historical view of the current times might suggest that the Liberal opposition was starved of any intellectual capacity, as the behind the scenes players, of all political persuasions, were tied up working for the new government.
Maybe. Time will tell.
Critical because some of the people within the party are putting in place policies contrary to Labor beliefs…
For example privatisation of assets, cuts to jobs in the public service, banning of strikes… Labor was formed on the back of the unions and they are being shafted.
39 Harry, I must confess I get more these days out of the cartoonists (Bill Leak et al) and the satirists such as Jon Stewart than I do from these alleged journalists.
Apart from a few notable exceptions, George Mega being one, they are piles of crud driven by over-inflated egos. The fact that Hanoi Piers can call himself a journalist simply illustrates my point.
Mayo Culpa.
Probably not. As others have discerned, the Liberals have herded within it it, comforted by the larger and larger folds of Alexander. Though there are heaps of ferals. Should, god willing, he depart, the best hope is that someone, unlikely to be Labor, strikes a chord.
The people Rudd bring inside the tent are likely to be unavailable to his enemies. Better to have people like Ridout on the inside than working with the LNP at the next election.
Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best
thing of all is to take the enemy’s country whole and intact;
to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is
better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire
than to destroy them.
Maybe Rudd is keeping hold of the old Liberal party govt support machine to deny them access to it.
With respect.. but Ridout may well retire by then.
marky I suspect that Iemma may be about to get a wake-up call from the unions in NSW, I am sure they are still capable of looking after themselves!
I love Swan’s little laugh at Turnbull having some economic modeling done in the space of a few minutes. Turnbull is not a natural and says whatever he thinks sounds good at the time but often turns out to be nonsense….yep, he is a jumped up car salesman. Turnbull Motors
Kina, thank you for reminding us of Sun Tzu, maybe Kev is channelling him?
Agree, Kina. Turnbull was definitely top of head response; all old currency, Kerry grinned. As Swan had the harder task, Turnbull, even as car man, lacked the suavity one would curl a lip at.
how can Turnbull say the budget is inflationary when the forex markets already lowered the dollar by 0.2 cents against the USD. I mean seriouslly the markets are obviously expecting this to lower interest rates QED lower inflation. And i also agree any modelling Turnbull did on his Casio Calculator in the space of three minutes will either win him the Nobel prize in economics or prove his and the Coalition lack of economic credentials……
Yep just like all the other previous privatisations done under the Hawke and Keating years one suspects, sorry but the unions will cave in and rollover and who benefits certainly not working people.
Rich lawyers, consultants and overseas money markets and some overseas buyer.
Yep Qantas and the Commonwealth Bank certainly care for their workers, were they not the first willing to want to introduce workchoices.
I bet John Robertson has already been guaranteed his seat in parliament to shut up.
Allbull is meant to be keeping his head down while hair-raising-nelson does the hard yards, whatever needs to be done, to protect he team and give them time to develop a policy platform to get back in the game with.
It doesn’t seem like anyone has informed the team of the strategy.
In fact, Allbull is in this over his head and is bleeding profusely, and his right arm is hanging by a thread. He’s not going to be much good in a sword fight if he loses the arm and can’t hold a weapon.
Endorsing Swan we already have the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry (ACCI) and the Commonwealth Bank of Australia chief economist Michael Blythe.
Allbull is going to look prey silly by the end of the week. Very silly indeed.
http://news.smh.com.au/economists-salute-swans-budget/20080513-2dq5.html
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23694786-29277,00.html
I don’t understand how it helps working people having billions of dollars of government money tied up in coal fired power stations that will lose value as soon as carbon trading comes in.
Peter AHrtcher at SMH:
*Hartcher, obviously
Trent
Exactly; that was my point in post 25 – Turnbulls comemnts were nonsense. You can argue that the budget cuts may not be sufficient, or ideologically targeted at the rich, but you can’t say it was both high taxing and inflationary. That is a contradiction. Taxes reduce spending and hence reduce inflationary pressure. And the markets have realised that. Also as I said, some of Turnbull’s comments were just false (calling it high spending when the rate of spending increase has been reduced to well under inflation).
You are right the modelling comment was laughable too. Salesmen get away with making fancifull claims because people don’t bother to check them, but if Turnbull makes up stuff like that on the run as Shadow treasurer, with a press corps (and a few bludgers) recording it and checking the facts, he is going to get caught out.
So when the privatised electricity owner starts putting up their prices, or when a retailer rings you whilst having dinner and when complaints increase to the electricity ombudsman regarding poor and inadeuate contract provision or lack of detail to householders such as what has been happening in Victoria ( hence this year was a record for complaints) and what about when the power suddenly goes due to problem will consumers in New South Wales know who to complain to and when they will be reconnected..
And what of the workers, i suppose we will have casual workers or workers knocking on doors living of the sales they get from signing people on to new contracts…
The sale is all for some proceeds for health and education which they cannot borrow for and which when the money runs out what will they do… yep cannot rely on the money received from the public ownership because we no longer own it…
Where will Iemma and Costa and Keating be.. in the years ahead, yep living of the taxpayer with their superannuation without a care in the world…
Whilst the New South Wales taxpayer cops it in the neck. Pathetic.
Have to laugh at Downer’s timing. He could have gone months ago. Announcing it now is the worst possible timing re: the budget. How conceited of him, and what a fitting farewell
Budget Papers:
http://www.budget.gov.au/
If ever confirmation was needed that Cossie is outa here it was today… he showed his intention with that doorstop… I mean c’mon! I sympathize with him… If I had dealt with the pack of wild dogs that is the media for 20 odd years I would have lurved the chance to strut up and do what he did… I mean f#(kem, he’s been waiting for the chance for years
The circular media spin thingy was brilliant ( Speers mic gag) jeez, almost reminded me of the careers ‘uproar” but when he goes Grattan about her glasses (cmon, we all think the’re to big, admit it!
Then you just know he’s off soon and having a laugh as he does it
Shows on- so the government is going use the proceeds to replace the power stations with renewables and build Solar Plants…
Can see a private owner now complaining about competition and giving one or the other party in New South Wales a massive donation to do as they say.
They will burn fossil fuel until it runs out simple.
Can anyone give me the skinny on Peter Hartcher please?
He seems to have arrived on the Federal political scene like a bolt out of the blue. 8 months ago i’d never heard of him and now he seems like the agenda setter within media circles.
Is it just the way he carries himself or is he the new media player who frames the political scene for the hacks to disperse?
Is he the new pointman for Australian political media?
thx
No, it will be burnt until it’s not economically/politically viable for us to do so
Then we will use other things… but sell the carbon fuels to those that haven’t reached that point yet
Hartcher sounded a bit bitter about it all, upset that it wasn’t a bad budget?
Classified agree to a point but like all resounces we will may keep using it until we wake up on its environmental costs and that will be when it is to late.
Never understood the point of privatising essential infrastructure like telecommunications, water and electricity.
Politically it is risky since you have to play ball with say the Power company or have them raise rates, complain your gonna increase costs etc at around election time. They can put political pressure on you to allow them to profiteer on the public. AND, look at the battle between Telstra and Howard at election time. Howard’s Frankenstein.
Commercial enterprises, especially where it is basically a monopoly, are necessarily driven to provide the least amount of service acceptable, at the lowest cost acceptable (lowest quality) at the highest price acceptable and, no one can do anything about it (see Petrol companies). There purpose is not to provide an essential service to the country but to make the most amount of money at the lowest cost.
Maybe I am naive on this but I don’t think there is any additional benefit to be had in privatising these things. Yes they might be more cost efficient (sack employees; lower service quality and quantity, hold govts to ransom)….
HarryH
Whomever wrote it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hartcher
Kina that is why the government has to come along and provide billions for broadband, because Telstra cannot afford it- pathetic.
Simple the privatisation has been a failure and competition in communcations by the previous government an absolute failure.
Quick yes or no answer from Tony Jones
Are you a simplistic fool?
Adults have adult conversations Tony, and occasionally, some things are more complex than yes/no, black/white.
Possible Marky but I doubt it. This Gov will go as far as it can and as far as the realities allow. If we go too far in the use of carbon fuels and blow it then I suggest it wont matter a hoot what we do by then…
We may sell lots of the stuff, but we don’t affect the outcome anymore then a bee’s dick does bothering a racehorse for a night out on the town
But I honestly, I don’t think it will come to that
Funds for infrastructure, education and health all for marginal seats or visionary projects?
There’s something hilarious about Turnbull saying that this is a high taxing, high spending budget, but at the same time, voicing opposition to means testing the baby bonus.
Cheers crikey whitey
Seems to me, this guy is the new head honcho of the Political media commentators from what i’ve seen the last 6 months or so.
ps: i bet Kirri is a fan seeing as Hartcher is a scathing critic of Kirri’s pet hate Mr Alan Greenspan lol.
If you suggesting that carbon trading may make a difference i for one doubt it but we will wait and see.
The european trading scheme worked like this- handing out carbon dioxide emission permits, free of charge, to big European companies. Thus the largest polluters got the most credits- the polluter was paid. Hence companies were making windfall profits without reducing their emissions. Thus produce a certain amount of carbon dioxide but do so within the largesse of the credits.
The Murray is in crisis and soon maybe next year Adelaide may have some problems with its drinking water but governments i am hearing are doing very little about the problems thus like most things it will only occur when a crisis occurs.
So will the Liberals seek to block in the senate means testing the baby bonus/family tax benefit part B, because it discriminates against rich people? LMFAO
Turnball completely floundered tonight: if this was his audition for Nelson’s job, he failed miserably LOL
Re Marky Marky @ #64
Marky,
You obviously don’t live in NSW.
The National Electricity market was deregulated a few years ago. Since that time private electricity retailers have been in active in the NSW market, competing against the 3 NSW Govt owned retailers (Energy Australia, Integral Energy & Country Energy).
We get the Govt retailers and the private retailers knocking on the door wanting to sign us up for a three year contract. The price is the same no matter which retailer is used.
The NSW taxpayers are in a lose-lose situation. If NSW Govt keeps ownership of their Electricity retailers, than the value of the asset will continue to decrease as they lose market share. (they used to have 100% market share in NSW, but this has obviously decreased since Origin, AGL, etc started competing in NSW). If the NSW Govt sells the retailers we lose a valuable asset.
Hope this clarifies the NSW situation for you.
Hartcher does seem to be something of a leader, in the lamentable state of the media, although less than left, HarryH, but his work is thoughtful and measured.
Whether I agree with him or not. Kirri is billi? Yes? And I accord with anyone who happens to think that Alan Greenspan had his eye on the real ball.
‘on the real ball’ Should probably have written ‘off’
Marky
I agree the European carbon trading scheme as implmented is deeply flawed but that doesn’t mean carbon trading can’t work. The nordic countries had a quite effective scheme going before they were subsumed into the EU scheme. Clearly though, nobody is really prepared to implement it until their major trading partners also agree. So as long as China is exempted and the US holds out, it won’t really happen.
I agree that water in the Murray (or lack thereof) is a serious issue, but to be fair the SA government is now proceeding with a desalination plant. I fear we could be in serious trouble before it is finished however, depending on next years rain.
John Stewart, NAB CEO is in behind Swan too.
I’ve never seen John looking so comfortable and positive, and no wonder Allie is glowing. In fact Allie has totally outclassed Tony in content tonight.
Looks like there won’t be any pretty jobs out there for ex-Liberal treasurers, or shadow-treasurers.
Allbull is now a career politician – get used to it.
Regarding Turnbull, I just looked up his bio and sure enough, he is a lawyer and barrister, not an economist. He’s never studied it, or worked in it. So he’s not stupid but beyond the soundbite stuff he doesn’t really know economics. By contrast, Swan was a lecturer in public policy in Qld for a few years before he entered politics.
Yep desalination plants always work without actually trieing to fix the Murray which is dying. And all those towns on it goodbye slowly.
So the market is deregulated so what? Selling it means a government no longer has control over it.
We are in massive massive debt privately in this country because governments no longer do or own anything and provide anything and one day soon we will notice the costs. Partly private debt is a reason why our interest rates are high.
Fed up with people who no longer know the difference between government ownership and private ownership. A government can borrow at cheaper rates than a private company due to security of funds and this we should be utilising.
But continually it is about distribution of monies from the total population to a few people.
I am listening to Delroy. An enraged person is calling on the subject of the apparent failure of the Budget to deliver an increase in the pension. I have no idea if this is so or not, but. He is far more than disappointed. For singles, as much as pairs.
Another is talking of the useless work of the Job Network. That her husband, well experienced and qualified, cannot get a job through them.
Marky,
I was neither advocating selling the Electricity retailers, or supporting a deregulated market.
IMHO the only thing the deregulated electricity market has done is allow the companies who bought the electricity assets in Vic (& SA?) to inexpensively expand into other states.
I would prefer it if each state Govt still owned and controlled all of their electricity assets. It would make it much easier changeover to renewable energy sources without the concern of generating profits for overseas shareholders.
Serves him right for inviting Peter Dutton onto his show.
If her husband is well experienced and qualified, couldn’t he get a job on his own?
AMP Shane Oliver
BT Financial Group, Dr Chris Caton (I think?)
both fans
I think at this point Wayne is entitled to crack open the champagne.
He’s managed to rip the economic mantra of the libs to shreds.
About bloody time.
hello Crikey
I reckon the Libs would have had their stooges “callers to talkback radio” all primed and supplied with written scripts of what to say criticising the budget.
People pretending to be pensioners, carers, small business etc all the usual suspects.
Apparently he has tried, ShowsOn. But no good. Unsurprising, given the attitude towards the older worker, not least the same attitude of the Job Network people.
Maybe we could learn something from Therese Rein, about this problem. If she knows.
I listened to Bush Telegraph earlier, for example. A community in Victoria took upon itself to recruit and train pretty well local people in nursing skills. Now, it did not sound exactly like nursing, more aged care, but it works. It is localised, paid on the job, gets results, did not require that the trainees leave their area.
The Job Network would not have the imagination to do what this community has achieved.
Shows on- where i work their are many people who have qualifications and are working in positions inferior to their talents. It is the new reality an economy which is provding unskilled low paid work and the rich meanwhile are getting richer and our governments are continually wishing to privatise things or cut the public service.
Yep both parties to me do not care, big business and the media run this country.
Barry sorry but i totally agree with you renewables and power could be better managed in government ownership, but the silly dills are only listening to rich lobbyists wanting a quick buck.
Actually they are thinking or their superannuations which many of them will get after the next election win.
Hi there Vera
No doubt, there are the stooges. Those I mentioned were only those heard. I had only just switched on to radio, wanting to know the talkback response.
But maybe that caller was correct. About the pension. And if that is the case, it is and will be seriously disappointing to those who depend upon it.
Another Lib bites the dust in Vic. (Hi Crikey. How’s it going?)
Will the last one left please put out the lights!
{ANOTHER email scandal has emerged within the ranks of the Victorian Liberal Party, plunging Ted Baillieu’s leadership into further turmoil.
Former federal parliamentary staffer Luke Dixon today quit as a Liberal Party branch member after an email criticising Mr Baillieu was made public.}
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23693382-5005961,00.html
There will be the usual CPI adjustment to the pensions this year. No change there.
Good, Scorpio. How about you?
Crikey, and the increased Utilities Allowance to all Pensioners as well.
Muskiemp 7
“I can just imagine the Liberal response if the budget is reasonable:”
They have already started, calling it the ‘anti mother and pro bludger’
Yes, I saw that little head kicking performance by Abbott on the Midday News. Looks like he is back to his usual form. But it was the venom spit of the politically impotent.
Crikey Whitey 74
That Wiki biog of Hartcher sounds just a bit too good. Written by an admirer, perhaps?
And as to Turnbull, I think the best days of his political career may well be behind him after that truly ridiculous interview on the 7:30 report tonight.
Swan has delivered an economically sensible and politically astute budget.
Crikey I think it’s the single aged pensioners who do it the toughest, some extra help for them would be a good thing
Don’t the pensioners receive a one off payment of $500.00? This year?
Cruising along, Crikey. Some days not too bad other days not so good.
Would sure like some answers though. It’s painfully slow getting anywhere under the public health system.
I would like to have seen Swan put more upfront money into the health system though.
The way they have been reducing services and cutting hospital beds in the past 10 years has amazed me.
Have often wondered if Howard & Co realised that the Australian population was growing and aging fast, requiring a continual increase in the health budget to cover this.
Also, if you look at what is happening in Burma & China now, what would happen if there was a major catastrophe in this country, a major epidemic, an aircraft accident or a terrorist attack?
How would the overstretched system we have now cope?
Frank, the Utilities Allowance is good, if that is what you mean, but anyone would think that the overall pension/allowance rate should be and should have been increased beyond the CPI, so called.
I had the sad experience of working in the State Welfare system, where it was suddenly decided that foster carers would not receive the customary CPI increase for the subsidy paid for children in their care. A situation which I thought outrageous. And one which continued for some six, at least, years. A situation which wow, resulted in difficulty in recruiting foster parents.
It was as if the all people are bludgers mentality had taken over. Despite the service offered. The same mentality either preceded or overtook the debased attitude of the Howard Government.
And Vera, I am single. Not yet a pensioner. And paid big dollars taking on, battling for and looking after my nieces. Lawyers, Family Court etc. Not bitter, happy, but what about it, guys? Not to mention what I do for the others. Again, one would, but hell, the forgotten? As a single, one gets to do a lot.
Sounds a little dispiriting, Scorpio. I intend to forward you my details.
Listening again to Delroy. Introductory starters.
Combined Pensioners Association angry.
Seniors Bonus not means tested.
Travel pensioner discounts favours the better off.
Respondents:
Rage! Rage! The single pensioner, quite probably the same person. Bill. Age over 70, he talks of. We are forgotten. Because we are dying. Dares Kevin to look him in the face. Well informed about the wealthy superannuant. Not him. No tax breaks for them. As he said before, I life long Labor supporter, worked to return a Labor Government, is disgusted.
Fran thinks its a good thing that Rudd has found a way of getting rid of the pensioners, by starving them to death. Says she is a lifelong Labor voter, cannot believe that the Labor Government does not give a damn. Just like Howard.
Vicki says that she has a disabled son, who is able to work occasionally. She is 50 years of age, sees nothing for her in the Budget. As a person herself on a Disability Support Pension, in rental situation, she sees little future. Wonders about the little to no chance of long term public housing accommodation. She says she has another lad living there, whom she portrays as needing some care. His status was not made entirely clear.
Mark on DSP thinks nothing in it ‘for us.’ But does not worry about himself, but for the unemployed youth in his (regional) area. Thinks he is damned and neglected under any Government of any type, hopes that Labor would redress the position as he ages.
Carolyn thinks in her 60’s that hit with massive increase in heath fund costs that the assumed ‘drop outs’ from the Health Funds will cause the funds to increase their premiums to the extent that she will have to drop out.
On DSP in his fifties, believes that the pension should be increased, that the utilities allowance compared to his rental costs are no compensation for food and petrol prices, goes without any luxury. Turnbull a bit miffed that the higher end of the earners may miss out a little. Is paying for private health, but thinks cannot carry on.
Jenny, DSP, agrees with Bill, at the discrimination against the pensioner, nothing for them, although she offers that Carers deserve what they received. She is also in private health fund, but concerned that she may not be able to maintain it, despite going without in other areas.
Clem, DSP, vision impaired, medical needs high, disappointed too that nothing has been reformed or put into needs based. Remarks that Work for the Dole did not appear at all as a reform, though will wait to hear tomorrow. (Not sure what that meant in respect of the issue)
Wayne, in his fifties, in a hit and run incident, complaining about the mean spiritedness of the Costello Howard Government, being ill treated to the point of desperation then total loss of benefits.
Work for the Dole, Centrelink rules like a ball and chain, a killer, someone needs to do something about them. Talks of the money being made through mining, but when will it trickle down to those in need.
John agreeing with the callers, that neither Swan nor Turnbull are interested in ensuring that Australia adopts a moral stance vis a vis cheap imported labor and products.
Ray, formerly DSP now Age Pensioner, says the GST for pensioners should have been cut. He is a survivor, but. GST was brought in by skullduggery, courtesy Democrats. (though not Don Chipp) Talks of doom.
Chris, not yet a pensioner, wonders why such a large surplus did not allow the pensioners an increase. Yet states that he believes it cannot be spent ‘all in one go.’
Trish, 83, believes that nothing in the Budget was made available for her son, in his sixties in wheelchair, gets 12 hours a week help, which is due to be reduced, no respite available. Worries about what would happen to her son when she dies or she suffers another heart attack. She says her body is wearing out. (!!)
Peter says there are always unhappy people under any Budget. Very disappointing and understandable about the earlier callers, but everyone must keep tight and bight their lips, the oil, the inflation, would have become much worse if it were still Howard.
Crikey, except for the last caller Peter, the whole talkback session sounded like it was staged by the Carers Alliance.
And as for the vision impaired fellow, he can work fulltime and STILL get the DSP as it isn’t subject to the Income and Assets Test for Vision Impaired people.
Wayne musn’t have heard about the changes regarding the relaxation of the rules and for JN providers to use discretion in regards to missing appointments handing in forms etc.
Crikey,
Here are the Dept of Human Services Budget papers, which cover Carers, Pensioners etc.
http://www.humanservices.gov.au/dhs/publications/budget/0809-financial-year.html
Oh, and Hartcher would fit in well at The Australian. He often cant help himself in trying to help out the Liberal party. Hartcher is reluctant to notice that banks and businesses like this Budget and, they are the ones who have to swim in this economic environment. But alas since late last year with some management changes the SMH did start leaning more to the right.
Hey you gotta love those Victorian Libs, at a time when their party is in a serious crisis right across the board. What do they do, engage in childish anti-semitic slurs on one of their own!
And federally, if they have any sense at all they will cease their petulant carping, clean their own house of some of the nasties who have crept in and develop some real alternative policies. It is obvious that they will not make any traction against Rudd and Co at least for the foreseeable future, so they have the time to do these things. I suspect the legacy of Howard will be a long time in the wilderness!
Oh Dear, a bit of exaggerating by the Queensland Libs about the Pineapple Party.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/libs-president-dishonest-over-nats-merger/2008/05/13/1210444421260.html
Thoughtful piece by Mungo at the Byron Bay Institute on the changes to Medicare:
http://www.byronbayinstitute.net/Mungo/Mungo33.html
Steve, watching this debacle unfold is a bit like watching “The Office” (pommie version of course), really cringe inducing
After seeing turnbull today, if he is the hope for the Libs, god help them. He calls the budget high taxing and high spending despite tax cuts and cuts in spending more than offset by savings. Using his criteria, Costello’s budgets were bad too
Having seen the Four Corners show on carers and had parents care for someone for some years, I have mixed views on this. I agree carers should be supported fairly if they are obliged to care for someone. But I disagree with the idea that people should always be supported to care for someone in their own home. Sometimes that is not in the best interests of either them or the person being cared for, even though emotionally they may want to do it. In many cases, the real answer is to have better institutional care arrangements. At present, lack of bed space is the real reason many carers are forced to look after severly disabled people. The solution is more beds, not more $ to carers.
Philosophically, this issue is a good reason why I am a fan of Australian philosopher Peter Singer’s views on the ethics of treating people with severe disabilities in the first place. His views are controversial, and frequently misquoted or misunderstood, but he is trying to grapple with issues that most politicians (and far too many religeons) would prefer to avoid. When someone’s quality of life is absolutely zero, with no prospect of improvement, it can be quite cruel to artifically keep them alive. We have never had to resolve these questions before, because we didn’t have the technology to keep people alive indefinitely. But now we do, we should think more carefully about when it is appropriate to use it.
I don’t wish to offend anyone with these views, and respect that carers and many others may disagree. I wouldn’t wish being a full time carer on anyone. But I think we should question whether there are times when it may be the wrong thing to do, and therefore shouldn’t be supported. I’d rather more $ went into formal institutional care, which is more effective if properly resourced.
I’d rather more $ went into formal institutional care, which is more effective if properly resourced.
Not sure that is true. I would be surprised if (good quality) formal institutional care was cheaper than offering more support for home/family based care. (Though I agree that more $ for some good quality institutional care is also needed, particularly respite care to give the home based carers a break.)
Socrates
there was an email going around a year or so ago, portraying a woman who had been horrifically burnt in a drink drive accident (she was an innocent victim).
From memory, she had lost her hands and feet, was unable to speak, had one eye (no eyelid, so needed drops applied every 20 minutes) and was basically dependent on someone being there every minute for 24 hours of the day just to survive.
Yes, she can be kept alive indefinitely – but is that really the humane option? And how can anyone know what she wants to happen?
On the wider issue of carers – I was on a hospital board for many years (regional, so it covered more than one hospital and a few aged care facilities). Looking after someone at home is definitely cheaper and delivers far better outcomes for the person concerned.
Basically, patients who go to aged care homes are going there to die – the average life expectancy is six months.
Another factor to consider is that yes, we have an ageing population, but it is a far healthier ageing population than it was even ten years ago and this is an increasing trend – the parabolic curve linking age and health problems has moved significantly, with the health problems kicking in when people reach their eighties, rather their sixties.
So caring for elderly people is getting progressively cheaper, despite their rising numbers.
As for hospital beds – the need for these is decreasing, again due to advances in health. Operations which used to require recuperation in hospital and now done in the doctor’s surgery. Others which once required weeks of hospitalisation now see the patient out in a matter of days, with far better long term health outcomes.
The real area of health shortage is that of people – and that’s a training issue.
“turnbull motors” i read it somewhere in here lastnight i commend whoever it was who came out with that one. just watched the interview he did with kerry o’brien
“i mean they spent more money on rudd labor programs than they did on howard/costello ones” – wow what a bloody bright spark. bye bye work for the dole and a whole lot of other useless shit howard brought in.
All quiet on the budget front.
Apparently there’s no holes and the only people whining are pollies and journos.
I suspect there’ll be little to talk about within a week or two and the polling impact will be minimal, though Brendan could make things worse tonight with another undertaker performance.
The opposition are down to their last cards, threatening to stand up for the downtrodden and impoverished…wait…what’s that? Oh – they’re going to stand up for the rich who just can’t do without that baby bonus or their drunk daughters.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23696829-601,00.html
“THE Coalition has branded Wayne Swan a “wimp” on inflation and refused to rule out blocking plans to means test the baby bonus and $3 billion tax hikes for alcopops and pre-mixed drinks.”
There’s an awfull lot of masked squealing about the fact that ALP isn’t the ideological dinosaur of the past – you know, before most of the rich businessmen supported them and deserted the Libs in droves. The best that Allbull can come up with is that his interpretation of the budget is different to the one that he thinks that Skynooz said that Wayne said about 8 weeks ago. Yep it’s about that intelligible.
In the end, the masses got their tax cut as promised, business is happy, the libs are playing henny-penny and nothings really changed.
And for light relief from the budget and disasters..
God could have created aliens too: Vatican
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/14/2244056.htm
gotta love some of the comments.
——————————————
I was mildly surprised to see a mostly positive wrap up of the Budget in the NT News, being a Murdoch paper and generally right leaning. But, well, we like most of the country lack on Opposition party.
No doubt the polls will continue to drift down and the Opposition will improve its standing just by being part of the debate, no matter how useless. But when they do settle Rudd support will be fairly stable. Safe pair of hands and incumbency and lack of credible/safe pair of hands Opposition.
Maybe Turnbull has made a mistake in not challenging before the Budget. By just turning up to the show Nelson and the LNP might win back some points in the poll and thus some credibility, and then the dilemma of how to dump a person who is on the improve.
marky marky
Times move on, it is not 1970, if it was 50% of the population would be pissed off with the damage being done to the economy by the unions, the decline of union power would be starting and we would be watching intellectually challenged conservative governments making a mess of it.
Swannie at the Press Club
A less well rehersed speech compared to last night but he shined in the Q&A afterward. Confidence, knowledge, belief and a dash of humour delivered with all the right body language. In fact, an analysis of the body language in the last few days suggests that Wayne has achieve top dog status, even amongst the Cabinet, and including Rudd, which I didn’t expect.
He won’t have convinced the Glens of the world (and really he never was going to find a place in the heart of those who like being dominated and belittled by a big fool from Victoria) but he seems to have done the job amongst his colleagues and peers, which in many ways is far more important.
Mitchell interviewed Rudd on AW and was complaining about alcopops, baby bonus being a broken promise and the budget not cutting hard enough. Nothing positive. He proceded to give Turnbull a free ride. No comment about his flip flopping.
Typical conservative commentator stuff. They really are having trouble shooting this budget down.
127
good to see Mitchell applying that large intellect he possesses and thinking for himself…
1. alcopops – an issue with those who don’t vote.
2. baby bonus – an issue with those with whom the majority of Australians can’t identify with in the slightest; the relatively young and rich.
3. not cutting hard enough – an issue with economists outside the mainstream and journalists; the interpreters of the interpreters.
It’s hardly mainstream stuff is it?
Onimod 123
Apart from the politics, the coalition’s stance on the budget can be ridiculed economically. They say it is not tough enough on inflation yet want to vote against the major cuts (alcopops tax and baby bonus means testing). That is incoherent and will deservedly get laughed at. How would they reduce government spending – more cuts to welfare? or government hospitals? The reality is they couldn’t possibly have cut inflation at all and have met their election promises. What would have happened to inflation if Howard had won?
This exposes that the coalition had no intention of doing anything about interest rates if it had been relected. They were just going to continue with the spending and tax cuts, mortgage holders be damned. That won’t help get the marginal seats on side again.
Since early in the year, a number of commentators have stated that “the coalition does not handle being in opposition well”.
In recent days, it is quite apparent that they don’t handle it at all, period.
Nelson and Turnbull’s responses to the pre-budget leaks and the responses last night and so far today to Swan’s first Budget have been abysmal. And that is being kind.
Never have I seen a political party go downhill so fast. Not even the One Nation aberration in Queensland blew apart as quick as this lot.
It’s early days yet, but they seem to be going backwards and must be perilously close to hitting bottom soon.
Question Time
Rudd is referring to Albull as
“the alternative leader of the opposition”
hahaha
There’s nothing like seeing the (neocon) misappropriation of language used against the primary abuser.
Chair-sniffing Lib denies quokka rumours
I believe him, I mean, who wouldn’t?
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/chairsniffer-denies-quokka-rumours/2008/05/14/1210444508751.html
Are there any animals, minerals or vegetables left in WA who are not threatened by the member for Vasse?
I just saw it on channel 7 news here in Sydney. Sarah Murdoch is complaining that everyone should get the baby bonus. She obviously believes people who are struggling like her need the money.
Maybe if she went out and got a real job struggling Australians, especially those who do not intend on having a kid, wouldn’t mind giving her a hand out as much.
Well if they are no good at politics they do at least have some humor value.
West Australian Opposition Leader Troy Buswell says there is “absolutely no substance” to reports he once did something inappropriate to a quokka, a small marsupial found on a holiday island off Perth.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=562803
I mean, this is just too funny. Monty Python?
“I’m not being backward in saying that I’m not a perfect individual and you know I’ve had a robust past and there may be elements of that that have proved offensive to people.”
“I don’t shy away from that at all, but I’m not aware that I’ve caused any offence to a quokka.”
bwahahahahaha
I hope it was a robust Quokka….
Quokka football is the popular past time on Rottness, not that I’m saying Buswell did that, he probably just sniffed the patch where it was sitting
Somebody mentioned Channel 7 News. Someone needs to remind Mark Riley – gently – that the Coalition lost the last election. Furthermore, John Howard is gone. Forever. Mark needs to deal with these matters. Or seek counselling. Soon.
Gonna be a long thirty months, Markster. Getting past the denial stage just might help.
We have become used to Costello budgets – lots of promises, pork, money for Crosby-Textor demographics that would boost votes. Then comes MYEFO, oops sorry, we did not actually spend $4 billion we announced, we will spend it on something else.
The usual sport after a Costello budget was whats in it for me – hopefully this farce has ended for good.
Still cant work out why we should be funding the private health companies with additional bonuses for nothing. Just a gift from JH. They already have a penalty mechanism for late the joiners, that ought to be the path for encouraging earlier subscriptions. I have been a member since 1976 but it was my choice.
They would be better of improving the free services than giving money to provide it elsewhere.
Seems the govt will get some pressure over the condition of pensions. This is as it should be of course.
When was the last pension increase not from average male weekly earnings adjustments?
At least it will now be either CPI or AMWOTE whichever is higher – a change that has been ignored by most commentators. If Howard had made this adjustment 4 years ago pensioners would be about $80 a fortnight better off.
Seems a lump sum bribe works for most dills.
Who most likely blow it on the pokies – note the large number of Pensioners at the various clubs on Pension Day
Kina #141
Howard was on the way to killing Medicare by a 1000 cuts but it looks like Kev is giving it the kiss of life.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23697007-5017018,00.html
“Because the decision is expected to result in thousands of Australians dropping out of private health insurance it will slash the amount of money the Government spends though the 30 per cent rebate it pays for every premium.”
“The decision to increase the Medicare surcharge threshold from $50,000 to $100,000 for singles and to $150,000 for couples will cost the Government about $600 million in forgone revenue. But it will save the Government more than $900 million over four years in terms of spending on the 30 per cent rebate, delivering the net savings.”
Check out Possum’s musings today on his site, particularly the piece from Crikey. I’ve been thinking for quite some time, from an interview Rudd did with Kerry O’Brien before the election, that this was what Rudd would do in gov’t., i.e., slowly turn the country in a different direction. No big bangs with bells, whistles and fireworks. That what passes for journalism in much of the MSM haven’t noticed doesn’t surprise me. It’s actually going to be extremely amusing watching what happens, as I think the Opposition and their supporters in the MSM, flail around utterly unable to comprehend why no one other than the base line Pineapple and Chicken Party supporters, vote for them anywhere, anytime soon. Agree it’s not good for democracy for there to be ineffective, incompetent, laughable oppositions, but jeez, that’s what they are.
Let us hope that such a beautiful species as the Quokka has not had to endure such a close encounter with any Liberal?????
What is it with Channel Seven. In Adelaide last night they had a segment on a lad who needed an expensive medication to treat his condition. They mentioned Rudd’s (not Mr. Rudd’s or the PM ’s) meanies not willing to come to his aid. Apparently there are only 5 people in Australia with this condition so subsidising by the Government really shouldn’t be an issue. What made my blood boil however was the appearance on the program of Christopher Pyne sticking up for the young lad. What was his Government doing for this same lad up until November last year and why didn’t the interviewer ask that of him. Yet he has the gall to accuse the Rudd Government doing nothing for the lad or at least until his condition worsens (when by Department guidelines he apparently does become eligible for a subsidy).
Again tonight with the pensioner’s sob story (while I have empathy for their situation) why haven’t the media been pushing this issue for the past twelve years instead of waiting until a Labour government is elected? Grrrrr.
Kina, seriously, the Medicare surcharge change is just the first of a number of changes that will drive a stake into the heart of the private health insurance industry. I personally was very pleased to see the first (I hope) of some serious de-funding of absolute rorts in health funding in the budget papers. There really is some serious ripping off going on in health. GPs writing so-called health care plans with the patient’s basic details, a diagnosis of “depressed”, nothing else, and claiming big bucks from Medicare for a referral. There are really competent and ethical GPs who don’t do this, of course, but currently there is no quality control in a number of critical Fed. funding supported areas.
Channel nine news has a huge gap in today’s poll.
Will you be better off under the new federal budget?
24566 -yes
38592 -No
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/
Can someone please explain why anyone in there right mind would take out private health insurance (except for tax penalties) ?
How many people with private health insurance deny that they have insurance when they attend a public hospital emergency dept?
$3 billion a year in subsidies for the private health system? Crud.
151
There was a good chinwag on the health insurance at Larvatus a couple of days ago.
I agree. It’s actually lost me some financial penalties over the years to not sign up. I’d rather have my number not counted in the private column under the current system – they don’t deserve it and the last government didn’t need any more statistical ammunition.
On Medicare, I think it a rather clever way of forcing the Heath Funds off life support. On a neglected issue, the Medicare Safety Net, still in favour of the rich. My friend who spends a vast amount on prescriptions cannot even reach the ceiling, unlike those in Turnbull’s electorate, who can
On pensioners, it would have been good to see them chucked an immediate boost to compensate for the loss of real income. That would not have hurt.
On singles, a little chat on ABC Radio this morning about how long can the Government employ working families as a slogan, when singles constitute a safely ignored but highly proportionate segment of the population. Giving by singles has always been considered a fine thing, you know, helping out, but where does it end? Especially when we, that is I, are giving personally, anyway.
That probably ties in to the singles moving into pensioner age. The question was asked, and it something I have considered, if I had the energy, when may a Singles Party emerge. Vera, acknowledged about maybe the Carers Alliance, but it works, doesn’t it? Especially when the Opposition jumps on board.
On Work for the Dole, breaching etc. Especially in regard to the effect on causing homelessness. Or exacerbating an existing plight. Applies to Austudy, age of dependency, 25 years indeed! This needed and does need a very quick fix, along with Centrelink rules and by now ingrained attitude towards their ‘customers.’ Sorry, dears, but Centrelink employees are our servants. Public servants. A good start would have at least provided seating arrangements instead of standing queues.
Is there any reason why the Government, once it assesses the Budget impact, should not deliver a mini Budget? Correcting anomalies in light of say, inflationary pressures.
On Quokkas, cannot resist. The Member for Vasse Deferens.
Western Australian Liberals definitely need a member for Vasse – ectomy
Let’s not make any bones about it, the three investment funds for infrastructure, education and health are great initiatives that will build Australia’s productive capacity for the future. Compare this with the 11 years of failing to invest and mismanagement of the Howard government.
Swan has been so impressive over the last two days. It was Costello who was the luckiest treasurer of all time. Tip was given a budget surplus after being in the job for 5 weeks and then wasted billions – riding on the back of Australia’s economic growth over 11 years.
Sky News reports that Malcolm Turnbull (aka “Albull” to his many friends on this site) is to deliver the Opposition’s Right of Reply.
WHAT!? That would mean the end of Nelson’s leadership.
Allbull is the only arseclown with enough ego to get up and spout the crap he’s been on about this week. He’s fighting for the less educated and rusted ons, in spite of the intelligent; hardly a way to spruik for donations from the top end of town in the current environment. He’s either raving lunatic or has the ego of Gordon Gekko at this point.
Crikey
I noticed yesterday in question time that Lindsey Tanner had dropped the “working families” and was saying working people. Don’t know if the rest will follow suit any time soon though.
Toomany balls is to deliver the Budget reply? Gawd almighty. They’re totally screwed. No understanding at all. Flying by seat of pants on fire. Buggered, both with and without quokkas.
You know if people did not listen to Mitchell he would not be on radio.
Stop listening to the dill.
The damage being done to the economy Charles is not by the Unions it is done by big business people who speculate their brains out and continually buy imports from overseas, union bashing is a typical business line, workers cannot have a payrise but ceos’ can and a massive one at that.
Swanny is making Cock&Bull look the complete arse that he is
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/swan-outflanks-turnbull/2008/05/14/1210444517954.html
yee hah – Jules is taking on Simple Tony.
He must have got a discount on blame at the local factory outlook and he’s trying to pass if off on another simpleton.
Bzzzzt – she’s more than a bit smarter than you Tony.
Direct quote: “Tony, you’re trying to create a world that doesn’t exist in reality…”
It’s a neat lesson, but I doubt Tony will be able to add it up. I’d love to see a 6 year old chess champ have a crack at him and smear him all over the table.
that’d be factory OUTLET (dill)
The media in this country are a joke, and put simply is Conroy going to do anything about them and their bias coverage… No he is busy trieing to find a brain.
Turnbull and Nelson are at complete odds and are making a mess of it but little coverage.
This budget to me was unimpressive and to say the rich are being hit is like hitting a elephant with a feather.
The budget does nothing about climate change, our rapidly expending foreign debt, housing affordablity and in the long run inflation will continue to increase and so will interest rates. A visionless waste all about getting back in government and doing what the libs do hold back on spending until the final year and do so in marginal seats. Put simply it is about looking after themselves.
Any of the summit ideas in the budget?
Rudd should not try to be too careful. Respect is earned by those who enter a fight, fight well, even if they lose it. Rudd needs to get into some scuffles and soldier on do some unpopular things and stick by his guns.
Tony’s job in the face of someone like Julia is very challenging. Maybe the loss of Maxine has put undue pressure on the little TV journalistic talent or decisive questioning permitted to the ABC.
Tony is hardly a dope, and has always done great questioning, but don’t forget, he remains under the pressure of management and the Board…and I typed this just before Julia said whatever she said about ABC pressure (good) … intimations, perhaps.
Great to see Julia out there again, responding in her intelligent, reasoned and articulate way to the questions. Particularly on the Health cover issue.
PS. Her hair looked great. As did she. As did and does Maxine.
Loved it on the 7.30 Report when Turnbull acused Swan of running a pork-barrelling racket with the Budget.
Is this the same person who gave $12,000,000 to a personal campaign contributor during the caretaker period for a gizmotron that supposedly produces rain out of thin air?
Talk about a Turnbull in a China shop.
Sadly, Kerry did not point out the ridiculousness of the Turnbull pot calling the Swan kettle black.The Budget coverage (what I have seen of it) has been diabolical. From Turnbull’s Fantasyland to Chris Uhlmann alleging that – after being given billions of dollars worth of free laptops – some parents may have to fork out a few pennies out of their own pockets to hook them up.
The sheer bloody-mindedness of it all is truly exasperating.
And did I read about that Sarah Murdoch was weighing in on the Baby bonus?
Fer Chrissake! Enough already!
The wealthy are getting big tax cuts and a nice child care rebate plus private health rebates, and private school help and can still get their negative gearing rebates and can narrow their tax base through superannuation and they are whining… pathetic.. pathetic that a government has not the guts to rip into them.
Sure, and you are correct, Bushfire Bill, as to Kerry’s failure to pounce. Rain making, sheesh! The favours, the bill, the squandering!
Now, Uhlmann on the other hand, is a product of the management under Howard; not the faintest idea. The very thing the Board hopes to attain. (Can’t even mention Sarah Murdoch, for what the?)
Kerry, I believe, has not been subdued to idiomation merely because he plays golf, with whomever, though that is a possibility. Reckon again the major player is the Board.
My son alerted me to this – http://www.thoughtzone.net/the-king-is-dead/ – enjoy
Yes indeed, Possum has summed up the situation nicely yet again, domestic bliss must indeed be reigning in your household Poss:
“Undoubtedly there will be some of those in the future – the not quite so root and branch tax review springs to mind, but there’s a whole lot more going on in this budget below the headlines and the PR management. We might all need to start thinking in more complex ways on how government initiatives interact with one another if we are to get to the bottom of the broader sweep of government policy direction – because Kevin Rudd and his government certainly are.”
The more I see of this Rudd Govt the more I am impressed by their strategic view, it is like a cosmic chess game. He has left the so-called opposition and their media scrum floundering and looking increasingly ridiculous by the day. We have Turnbull and Horatio issuing contradictory statements regarding means testing, taking different views on inflation etc depending on the day of the week. Don’t they realise that they are just SO IRRELEVANT! Do they really think Joe Public cares that the rich can no longer get a brat breeder bonus?
Speaking of oppositions, have they appointed a shadow minister for Quokkas yet? Might be fertile ground there.
The Qld Libs state council are meeting tonight.
“Opponents hoped to scuttle the merger at the Liberals convention on May 30 before a vote by rank-and-file members on a final proposal could go ahead.
They also wanted to dump Mr Spence in favour of former federal MP Mal Brough.
However, merger supporters will tonight attempt to prevent this at a meeting of the powerful state council by delaying the convention until after the plebiscite of members.
Liberal leader Mark McArdle and deputy Tim Nicholls yesterday wrote to members saying because of the costs they would support the general convention being held at the same time as a constitutional convention scheduled for July 26-27.
The move would ensure members voted on the merger and would delay the election of the party president.”
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23698877-3102,00.html
Our ABC (or should that be the Liberals’ ABC) is putting in the extra effort to discredit the Budget.
Two threads devoted to the topic on the Unleashed blog, both disparaging:
Budget won’t ease interest rates
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2244277.htm
Budget tug of war
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2244116.htm
Nelson has reversed Howard’s thinking on Queensland merger. Now it will not need Federal approval.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23700860-5006786,00.html
Now woudn’t it be funny if in 12 months rates and inflation came down.
We shouldn’t forget there will be another budget next year that will join a few more dots.
RX
Yep, it’s THEIR ABC (not our anymore)
Just saw the midday news which started off saying there was going to be a $3bil hole in the budget because their wonderful opposition would block the bad alco pop tax. Then we heard 10 second grabs from 4 Libs, one after the other bagging the budget, then Feilding with his mini trolley of groceries ( he seems OK though, comedy relief at least) and Bob Brown complaining about the enviroment. Next we cut to Nelson ranting about hidden taxes, then another 3 Llibs saying what a wonerful job Brenda would do with his reply and how his leadership was safe.
The only Government person to get to have a say was the assistant treasurer who said Nelson had to say how he woulds fight inflation.
Not what you’d call balanced reporting, Coalition 8, ALP 1, Greens 1 and Independants 1.
Feck! I want my 8 cents a day back, come on Kev that can be your next cut, why should I be forced to contribute to the Coalition slush/advertising fund?
Gee, the share market hated the budget – NOT.
My guess is that most people are already past the budget and getting on with life.
Good to see that Labor are going for the jugular on the Liberals stupid sugestion to oppose the budget cuts. The assistant treasurer has just said that the budget reply speech will be a test of the opposition’s inflation fighting credibility:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/15/2245536.htm?section=justin
He is right, and I hope they pursue this line vigorously. It really buries the myth of Howard’s economic management credibility (not that he ever had any for those of us who remember his time as treasurer under Fraser). Politically, it will surely damage the coalition in any by-elections in seats with mortgage holders. It will show that, even after losing the election, and the risk of recession growing in the United States, the Liberals still have no intention of doing anything to control interest rates.
Vera (#179) I have seen so many ad pointers on ABC-TV for the Opposition’s Budget Reply that it has been just ridiculous. What with the slanting of the reporting, and copious publicity for the Liberals, it does indeed look like that party owns the ABC. As you say, it looks like their ABC.
I thought free-market types eschew public broadcasting?
In QT today we had the Torago Tax – some poor family complaining about the fact that they need a Torago because they have 6 kids.
Nice try – but only one model would attract the tax, the Ultima that costs $72,490 shot themselves in the foot again.
http://www.toyota.com.au/toyota/vehicle/RangePage/0,5141,3925_902,00.html
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How much extra will it cost? Is the tax applied flat?
ie $72,500/1.25 x 1.33 = $77,140?
This is a link to some old and new prices.
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/motoring-news/story/car_tax_how_much_will_you_pay/
May maths may be a bit wonky but I think the increase would be about $1080. Multiply the old price by 0.014901935316274840888427068450448 seems to work.
So seriously piss bugger all – less than the price of “dealer delivery”, 1.5%, and the realm of bargaining, or less than the average weekly wage.
Back to the alcopops I say.
Speaking of which.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/15/2246137.htm?section=justin
Fools.
The government should have raised the tax on cigarettes to bait the Liberals into opposing that!
Wilson Tuckey tried to make a point of order during QT today saying that the “Tax loophole” on pre-mixed drinks was something to do with wine based drinks.
So it looks like the alcohol lobby got their way when the GST was introduced and wine producers got favourable treatment.
The answer in simple – tax alcohol by volume. It does not matter if it is beer, wine, spirits. Tax it all the same.
Jovial Monk may see an increase in sales of home brew stuff.
189
what’s the bet that that nice little prop Hockey is holding (and its 5 mates) are now empty?
Hockey does not belong in the health portfolio.
Hmm, so Half Nelson is going to concentrate on Taragos, Seniors, Small Business and Bacardi Cruisers
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23703758-601,00.html#
Sam Maiden is wrong (as usual) “In Parliament, the Opposition moved to censure Mr Swan today over his first budget ”
It was not a censure motion – it was a motion to suspend standing orders. Sheesh, surely we should expect journalists to know the difference.
ahhhhh yesssss
The news channels have got footage of Emo man (Nelson – thanks Mark B.) lecturing the house on the dangers of alcopops way back in 1996, and with hair containing even more self raising flour than the present.
areseclowns
I term thee Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest (Nelson, Turnbull, Hockey).
195
Which channels was this shown on. Not on 7 in Adelaide.
Just saw it on Ten News, Paul Bongiorno wasn’t very kind on Nelson
Anyone remember last years budget in reply by Kev – god I thought all the gov (libs) benches had been imbibing alcopops – they were pissed as farts with all their yelling and burping
196
SBS national
ABC local, though it was Toolman, so probably got picked up Nationally.
Apparently (AGAIN) no-one in the Liberal party has learnt to use Google yet.
According to wikipaedia they’re quite controversial in most markets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcopop
Choice magazine (yeah – that high taxing left magazine…) has some choice things to say:
http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.aspx?id=106195&catId=100514&tid=100008&p=1&title=Alcopops
The alcohol industry is reasonably open about who they’re targeting:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/alcopops-lure-young-drinkers/2007/08/05/1186252546948.html
and the cops think it’ll have an effect:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/28/2228825.htm
It’s hardly the sort of issue that’s going to split the country in half.
I still reckon Possum’s hypothesis is on the money. Kevin is playing chess rather well and the drongos that pass for an opposition and many of those who claim to be journos in the MSM are playing snakes and ladders. And if they think their respective performances are going to have any real effect on the next election, they are still underestimating Mr. Rudd and co.. The so-called news reporting component of the ABC is an absolute joke, and I’ve temporarily given up complaining. Never got a response. There’s surely got to be a way of doing some citizen generated pressuring for them to lift their game?
the alcopop trio, the three amigos, all had one too many down at Turnbull Motors before parliament today. Hence their drunken performance in the house today.
O.K. Who else is going to watch Elmo man? Tragic that I am. that’s me. On now.
“Chucky’s” mum is in the lower right hand side of my tv…….aaaahhhhhhh!
202
There’s an awful lot of head nodding going on over the weak side.
That was a proven tactic in the last campaign wasn’t it?
The libs are still focussed backward. We’re good because we were good type of stuff.
Bishop and Hockey can’t get their head nods and shakes co-ordinated.
Nice glance to Pete there – luv ya Pete (spineless wimp)
gawd… my eyes are glazing over.
here we go (binge drinking)
Emo man can save us!!!
pass the tissues
onimod @202:
I agree with the backwards looking aspect. It seems like Nelson has spent the majority of his speech talking about the past.
The opposition really look like a bunch of bobbleheads don’t they.
So how long till the leadership challenge, then?
I give it three weeks, max.
Backward looking, shrill, lightweight AND deluded.
This mob is a rabble.
Oh look – a crowd favourite. Let’s bash teachers.
I’m a teacher, and the idea of Bishop getting her hands on the profession is horrific.
Who rented the crowd?
Now it’s the “you see Timmy” moment
Are 9% of the population just plain retarded?
They are already changing the furniture in the opposition leaders office for the “Prince from Point Piper”
209
Nah – I reckon this is what they (MP’s) want to hear – it’s certainly not the junk from Allbull. He’s talking to his own here – not Australia.
Savings to pay for teachers, alcohol, fuel excise, carers, pensioners, scientists, universities? Nah, just spend it.
Now for the mother hood statement – this is definitely for the troops.
The individual can apparently save the world on his own these days…
Now Toolman is going in to bat, and he can present the posibility of the Senate standing up for the alcohol industry with a straight face. Unbelievable.
Bring on the DD I say.
you must be the only people watching.
BigMal looked like he was grinding his teeth throughout that. You could just see the cogs turning over in his head thinking to himself how much better his speech would have been.
Steve Lewis on Sky is nailing Nelson as an economic dill for saying inflation is ok at 4.2%.
Hockey waving alcopops around in Parliament. Explains a lot.
Alco-cordial for kids, the Nelson Turnbull platform.
More contradictions from Nelson. (He’s never voted Liberal in his life, you know). I think his leadership is terminal. Long dark night of the soul for his side of politics for some time yet, I reckon. I don’t think this weak performance does anything other than highlight how inept he is.
The only thing keeping Nelson there is far-right manouvering and in-fighting. Nelson keeps arguing for things that he has already taken opposite sides on. Inept.
The new free milk at playlunch
(yes, I’m that old, it was still around till at least the mid-70’s when I went to school).
It will be interesting to see how it rates… am I right in remembering that Rudd nearly outrated Costello last year?
Nelson is showing his Union Colours
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/15/2246234.htm?section=justin
My long term prediction is that the next conservative PM will be from Victoria. Now while the Victorian top dog is beating the others off with ease, but then refuses the leadership when it’s offered to him (won’t even fight for it) federally, then the crisis becomes pretty apparent.
The problem is the top dog, and the culture he’s cultivated.
On reflection, Nelson’s speech was pretty well a repudiation of all of the things Howard did or did not do.
Funny stuff in the Queensland Parliament today when the National Member for Gympie decided to pick up his bat and ball and walk out:
Mr LUCAS:
When we look at the unemployment statistics from March it is a very great pity to see that Australia is at 3.9 per cent, south-east Queensland is at 2.9 per cent and the Wide Bay-Burnett area is at 6.1 per cent and yet their representative–
Mr Gibson:
No thanks to your government over the last 10 years.
Mr SPEAKER:
I warn the member for Gympie under standing order 253.
Mr LUCAS:
Their representative in this place not only wants to junk a $1.6 billion project–and he can have his wrong view on that–but where is his replacement injection of capital into his community that will ensure jobs growth in the future? There is nothing there. There is a policy to provide less water at a higher cost. There is no economic injection of $1.6 billion. All he is saying to people in the Gympie area is that, due to his kooky water policy and his voodoo economics, there will be nothing for them there. Would he have the dairy farms back again–the ones that we know have been in long-term decline? Other people in this House–even on the member’s side–ultimately want to work to create employment opportunities in their electorates. The member for Gympie stands condemned. The opposition of course is anti dam. It is anti employment, anti business and anti Gympie.
Mr GIBSON:
I rise to a point of order. I cannot find myself remaining in the parliament when these lies are being told. I will depart.
Mr SPEAKER:
I say to the member for Gympie that he was on a warning under standing order 253. He then stood and uttered the unparliamentary term ‘lies’. I ask him to consider the situation. He has interjected many times this morning. Sometimes when you give it you have to cop it. I say that applies to both sides. If the member for Gympie wishes to leave the chamber, I could have sent him out of the chamber for what he just did. If he wishes to leave the chamber, that is a matter for him.
Mr LUCAS:
We are employed and entrusted by our communities to represent them in this House. For someone, in a fit of immaturity, not being asked by the Speaker but because they do not like what happens in this place, to walk out says something about the quality of representation that the member of Gympie is giving his electorate. Never in my 12 years here have I once seen an opposition member do that. We have had very many great contests and arguments in this place, but to spit the dummy and walk out when his electorate is being discussed is simply disgraceful.
Yep, BK – he gave the ALP a big chance to use a lot of quotes from last year against him
Tried to watch it, became violently nauseous, threw the cat at the tv and stormed out. Cat is a liberal voter (self-interested, like all cats) so no great loss!
Would love to see them block supply, but they don’t have the balls.
So the Libs want to cut the budget surplus by $6 billion, what does their modelling say the effect on inflation will be?
Wow 5c a litre on petrol – that will save me 2 bucks a week. Dills.
Gawd, it was awful. Onimod, I think you’re right, but it’s going to be a very long time. After all, Glen is OS till September!
29
If they do block supply Kev will just ignore them and wait until they lose control of the senate in July.
I’d love a DD but fiscal conservative that he is Kev wouldn’t waste the money.
They should call the police to arrest Half Nelson for dishing out the bucket loads of crap through TV screens of viewers during his budget reply speech.
The liberal party couldn’t give a stuff about petrol excise. They failed to act in 11 years. They increased petrol prices with the introduction of the GST.
The benefits of carers and pensioners have fallen substantially in real terms under the previous government. Now they are all of a sudden the party of compassion and fairness. What a laugh.
Let’s get real. The liberal couldn’t give a stuff about alcopops, health, education, infrastructure, the environment, inflation, small business or employees.
The liberal party believes in one thing and one thing only – TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH.
Oh, and a baby bonus for the wives of their rich mates in the eastern suburbs of Sydney.
ruwake@230: The oil companies will just increase their profit margins. Pure popular politics.
May 28th is looking like an ominous date for Nelson. It is the next Party room meeting after this ludicrous, boring speech and no doubt the knives will be out after this effort has been digested.
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/info/sittings/index.htm
There’s a couple of wys this budget will play out:
1. Kev will also do nothing to feed the fire. These are spats to be dealt with by the underlings.
2. This is real brinkmanship that the ALP really can’t lose. The Libs have threatened and a back down would be the ultimate humiliation – therefore it’s push push push with a united line and see just how many contradictions can be exposed. Tie the lot of them together and apply the brand.
Unless something more compelling is engineered, a real issue (and it’s not going to come from the libs), then I suspect the branding operation already well under way will continue. It’s leaving the rest of the team free to work.
John Quiggin says: ‘Put a fork in him he’s done.’
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/15/put-a-fork-in-him-hes-done/
Hang on, did they just suggest cutting the petrol excise by the amount the GST adds? That was one of my old suggestions. Pity the wrong side is suggesting it, as it isn’t going to happen now.
How long do you really think a reduction of 5c a litre would last? Besides that’s $2.50 a tank. Sounds good but is a pittance for the average person. Where would the 1.8 billion be taken from needed to fund this?
Brenda will be printing his own shopper dockets next.
And here is the full text of the speech.
http://www.liberal.org.au/info/news/detail/20080515_BrendanNelsonsBudgetReply.php
Over all I give the budget a 5/10
I’m impressed by the idea of setting up funds for future building programs in Education (Costello’s intative) but Swan has explanded this to cover the broader Edcuation system and also set one up for Health.
I have no problem with the changes to the Medicare levy and have no issue with the means testing of the baby bonus although I’m unimpressed by talk about at what point does a person become rich.
But that is where the music stops, for Swan has failed to take the axe to the Disability Employment network which clearly is not working, for a country facing a skilled shortage where are the needed changes to the way we address the Two million people out side the workforce.
While I am a beer drinker I’m disappointed in the new tax on pre-mixed drinks.
Over all a wet lettice budget.
The news of Downer leaving Mayo, people talk about the Democrats going close in 98, if my memory serves me correct the boundaries were very different, in saying that the Liberals should hold Mayo just as I’m starting to feel the Nats will hold Gippsland.
One thing about this budget, the ALP have buckleys in any future Higgins by-election, something tells me Costello isn’t going anywhere and may well return to the frontbench at some point anyway that wont change much for the ALP should win the next election in 2010.
I agree with Nelson regarding the tax rise it will do little about binge drinking however i do agree with his idoitic view that their should be no increase.
The government maybe should look at increasing the legal drinking age to 21 when people are responsible. Thoughts?
I am a bit ambivalent here.
What is Horatio’s ideas does he have any?
And to not allow the other tax increases is this guy for real?
Interesting to note though on the front page of that rag the Australian today ( which i saw in a shop (never buy the crap)
How the price of alcopops’ hurts an average Aussie, tomorrow they will carrying on about Drunk drivers, the hypocrisy of that other dill Murdoch and his cronies.
Sorry meant to say i do not agree with his idoitic view on tax rises.
Just with regard to raising the drinking age (243)… the issue (as it is with all drugs) is striking the balance between harm minimisation and reducing use.
If a substance is legal, it will be used by a far larger percentage of the population than if it is illegal (duh). The same is true of the legal age at which it can be purchased (i.e. more 18-21 year olds drink than would do so if the legal drinking age was 21). So if you want to have the fewest people drinking (or smoking or whatever), you ban alcohol. Or increase the legal age.
However, that tends to have the effect of increasing illicit production/sale/use, and can contribute to a ‘hiding’ of the problem, because it is illegal.
Just on a purely neuroscience note, there’s no doubt that the brain of an 18 year old is differently susceptible to the effects of alcohol than that of a 21 year old (note I didn’t say ‘more’). I’m not convinced that that is sufficient reason to increase the legal drinking age.
I only argue for reducing excise to cover the GST cost on the excise on the grounds that shouldn’t be a tax on a tax.
Bizarre situation when you have an opposition leader criticising a new government for inaction over certain issues (pensions, petrol tax), thereby criticising themselves given that the policies were of their own making (weren’t they in government only months ago?)
The media really needs to cane Nelson & the Liberals on this patehtic reply to the budget.
245
Dangerous Says:
If a substance is legal, it will be used by a far larger percentage of the population than if it is illegal (duh).
Not necessarily. Making cannabis legal (within certain districts) in the Netherlands did not increase consumption (by the locals).
And the numbers of people in Australia (especially younger people) who have tried cannabis is very large.
248
Perhaps I should have said ‘on average’, as that is certainly the state of the published literature. In any case, the number of Australians who have tried cannabis is significantly lower than the number who have tried tobacco or alcohol, almost certainly because of their legal status.
Via LP, the New LIberal Party Theme Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohsPRiQwDbY
Petrol tax cuts and we are running out of oil and Medicare threshold opposition, yep from the people who are causing hospital waiting lists the pathetic Liberal Party.
What planet do these people live on.
marky marky – as I remember it the legal drinking age was dropped to 18 because of the incongruity of teenagers being old enough to send to war but not old enough to go to the pub to have a farewell drink with the old man.
However, if it’s deemed that 18yos aren’t mature enough to handle the grog, are they mature enough to vote? And would either side be advantaged by raising the voting age to 21?
On the alcopops business, I don’t drink, but if I did I’d probably be more than a bit miffed at having to pay more tax on a brandy and coke I mixed myself than the exact same thing out of a can. IMHO, alcohol should be taxed at the same rate no matter how its packaged, though I can see why wine needs to be an exception because so much of it is exported and most countries treat it differently than beer and spirits.
Chucky’s mum is on Lateline
Leigh Sayles is targeting the obvious conflicts:
Petrol excise (no action in 7 years) – no answer
Choice and freedom/Medicare – no answer; she can’t understand the difference between choice and the exidting penalty system. Even when faced with the proposition that proppoing up the system is blatantly agaist their ‘conservative’ market driven mantra. Too stupid.
Alcopops flip flop – attempts to get Brendan off on a technicality by saying there’s no evidence for the health benefits.
http://www.marininstitute.org/alcopops/alcopops_taxreport.htm
Brendan’s leadership – zip nada nothing; reading from a campaign text
Gippsland election – zip nada nothing; reading from a campaign text
The team – childish response
(this is getting hard)
Time in opposition – 1 term opposition stuff Brendan is good; Kevin is bad; just like Star Wars…
As a woman in WA Liberal party – matter for the state; no opinion.
Thanks for nothing Julie. Me thinks a lifetime of hairspray has had it’s effect.
At last a semi-intellectual set of questions on Lateline. Lets make a push for getting Leigh in the chair full time.
As a SINGLE person, it’s hard to work out whether the Liberal or Labor Party hates you the most!!!!
254 dingo – What? Labor just saved me from paying that bloody 500 dollar medicare levy.
Labor will cost Bendan’s proposals, then we’ll see who is economically responsible.
Anyone notice how Labor did not say boo during Nelson’s attempt at saving his job.
Well I just wanted to add that, like most posters who are not in Nelson’s direct employment, I thought the reply was dismal. Economically it was a bizarre set of contradictions – one the one hand he criticises the budget for being inflationary (??) and yet then proceeds to oppose the measures designed to take money out of the economy (i.e. reduce inflationary prssures), without offering any balancing cuts. So in other words, Nelson’s position must logically make inflation worse.
As for alcopops, why he has to make an issue out of a sensible move to end an obvious inconsistency in the tax system is quite odd. When you latch onto the trivial, people will have to conclude that you have nothing substantial to say.
At this point I think the only person who would like Nelson to remain opposition leader is Kevin Rudd.
Dingo, there is no comparison for singles. Labor has just repealed in excess of $4 billion of concessions to wealthy families, and raised the medicare levy threshold for individuals to $100k. When did the Liberals do anything for single people in the past four budgets, even though they had a combined total surplus of over $40 billion to play with?
Gary
Spot on, the behaviour of the Labor members was excellent, and in a way that was smart politics in itself. It was obvious who was disciplined, who was a rabble, and who were the hypocrits when it came to making pompous promises about parliamentary standards.
I’m cool. Made an early decision to reject Howard’s bullying, his big sticks and inedible horse carrots. The whole disgusting thrust, handing taxpayers money to the owners and shareholders of the health care funds.
Guessed it would turn around, eventually. And here we are.
I am rather more keen on the taxpayers money being put into public health. As opposed to being diverted to the private owners as described.
If an individual wants private cover, go for it.
If a health fund wants to make it attractive, go for it. Even if it costs them a little in returns.
I was prior to the Howard whipping a subscriber to Medicare Private, which was not too badly priced and offered certain benefits. Which were welcome. A bit on spectacles, dental. Not fantastic but a little worthwhile. A bit here and there.
The ‘gap’ was and remains a contentious and unresolved issue. Who, even as a private health care subscriber, would ever admit that they were such when needing imperative treatment. Not my Mum. Who received the best in the public system.
A double dissolution would be a fantastic outcome except, don’t expect the media to do anything except lie through their teeth to the public in order to support the Liberal party.
They all lament Howard’s taking tax payers money and giving it to business and then say he was giving people choice. Like I want to donate my tax to private schools whilst public schools were underfunded. Like giving money to private insurance companies and private hospitals and cut money from public hospitals. Taking hundreds of millions for election advertising, giving welfare to the needy rich. Disempowering the average working Australian with Dickensian WorkChoices to ensure they would end up totally at the mercy of Business cartels.
Using tax payer money as there own personal fund to bribe people at election times at the expense of the economy, totally neglecting investment in health, education, infrastructure, water and so on. Seems Megalogenis at The Australian admired these things ……in such phrases as …
“Howard used taxpayers’ money to reward people for consuming private services
such as schools and hospitals.”
How about stole taxpayer money to give to business instead improving public services… Maybe Mega doesn’t believe in public schools, hospitals and, preferred Howard’s vision of creating privileged Australians and disempowered Australians.
The neocons are still out there in force and still stand by the dead body of Howardism and will promote the incompetent remnant of a nasty viscous government.
When will the msm get off their lazy arses and hold the opposition [such as it is] to account for this incoherent babble of a budget response.
If labor in oppo had dared to put forth such rubbish it would have been headline material for at least a couple of days , yet instead of that we have the unedifying vision of my bloody ABC giving the conservatives a free pass.
BTW i want my 8 cents back.
long time lurker first time poster.
If any of the media were even slightly honest they would lambaste Nelson’s reply as being ridiculous, bordering on silly. If Rudd came out with something like that they would be ridiculing him from dawn to dusk. Nelson’s effort was a disgrace, poor and childish – have they no talent? Have they no advisers?
We are used to the Murdoch crew being dishonest on a regular basis and, the ABC trying to be the Liberal party’s iron lung.
They should be ripping shreds of the Liberal party and especially Nelson for being totally incompetent and, an embarrassment as an Opposition party and, for doing nothing genuine to reform themselves.
Seems the media has accepted the new level of incompetence and moral emptiness of the Liberal party and will promote them as acceptable in the vain hope of raising them up before the next election.
The media have been doing something similar in the states for a while….and look how well that has served the Liberal party!
Seems the Liberal commentators like the party refuse to accept reality and realise the need for Real reform.
I’m just waiting to here about Turnbull’s Quokka experience or the hard right undertaking exorcisms.
What, no thread on the budget, William? Where now are all the people who spent last year rubbishing Swanny as some kind of retard? It was a BRILLIANT budget, and while Polish TV didn’t for some reason carry Swanny’s speech live, my sources tell me it was first class.
The latest on the Pineapple Party merger shows that despite a Liberal Council meeting last night to once again change the rules there have been no substantial public change announced. The courier Mail article seems to be written before the event and has all the relevance of a Doctor Nelson budget reply speech..
“A BITTER split has emerged among Queensland Liberal MPs after Bruce Flegg accused the party’s leaders of trying to manipulate rank-and-file members.
Dr Flegg yesterday insisted he had nothing to do with an attempt by leader Mark McArdle and deputy Tim Nicholls to delay the party’s state convention.
In a letter sent to party members, Dr Flegg said other MPs had not been consulted and the move would rob members of their right to elect the organisational leadership.”
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23705130-3102,00.html
Can someone please enlighten me, who the hell is “Chucky’s Mum”.
Kina @ 263, yes indeed, they are pathetic, if we had any real journalists they would be ripping Nelson to shreds over his p*ss weak effort, and old Fat Joe sitting behind him nodding sagely away, probably dreaming of a big plate of kebabs!
Can we organise an online petition to clean out the nest of vipers now controlling our ABC?
Well the Liberal Budget reply? Can’t see a bounce in the polls. Looks like the pieces are set to move the deck chairs.
245
Dangerous Says:
If a substance is legal, it will be used by a far larger percentage of the population than if it is illegal (duh).
Maybe maybe, not, but making it legal means you can tax it at a level where the users pay for the medical resources used to clean up the mess, and law enforcement can concentrate on more useful things.
Okay, Nelson is an economic (and all round political) twit. But is the alternative any better?
Turnbull has been flipping and flopping just as much as Mr 9 percent. For 6 months inflation was a figment of Swan’s imagination, this week the inflation sky is going to fall in. Last week he was demanding more spending in the budget to counter a supposedly looming recession, this week he’s horrified that expenditure wasn’t filleted within an inch of its budgetary life.
I know in politics you’re supposed to bag everything your opponents do, but 180 degree swings are not a good look. Especially when you do two of them in rapid succession and end up back where you started.
Nelson slams the quality of our teachers and sitting right behind him nodding away in total agreement was the former education minister herself.! I’m still laughing.!
Basil 266
“Chuckey’s Mum” is Julia Bishop. I didn’t get it myself until I saw her staring ernestly into a camera and then realised that it was scarily accurate. The eyes have it.
A former president of the AMA is now condoning underage drinking?
Nelson is a tool of the first order!
And it’s very easy in opposition to float proposals you’ve got buckley’s chance of ever implementing, this proposed cut in petrol excise is a frigging great smelly con!
The most laughable thing watching last night: the applause from the rent a crowd young Liberals they brought along, presumably from Nelson’s own electorate on Sydney’s North Shore.
266 Basil
credit to ‘red wombat’ – bloody spot on
budget horror (with and without the pun)
I gave Mr Peter Martin a serve yesterday Today he’s asking the right questions so I’ll give him a his article in today’s Canberra times plug.
Hopefully his dead tree text makes on to the tubes at some point today.
There are Lib supporters where I work who are astonished (angry even) that their party isn’t supporting the increased tax on alcopops. Nelson and Co seem intent on destroying whatever trace of repectability their political brand enjoys.
MayoFeral
“Okay, Nelson is an economic (and all round political) twit. But is the alternative any better?”
I find it hard to judge who is the bigger tool. Malcolm does manage to sound more confident (whilst talking complete bilge) on TV.
A liberal supporter friend raised this with me recently and I’m afraid I wasn’t very helpful or sympathetic. In fact I may have quoted Josh Lyman, “you might do better discussing this with someone, who, you know, cares.”
#275
Yes, the anti-alcopops-tax line is a non-starter. Just look at the things Nelson is going into bat for: alcopops and luxury cars! Brilliant.
A bit ‘off topic’ (sorry William) but here is a question for those PBs (including our host) who follow day to day WA politics more closely than I do: is it true that the Australian Labor party’s Jim McGinty said (feigning jocularity) that pedophiles are Liberal voters?
Nelson has now said he won’t vote against the means testing! ROTFL
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/16/2246675.htm
Gee thats generous of him, not holding the threat of a double dissolution over Rudd’s head. I dare say the third spot Liberal senators in every state will be grateful too. Their path to unemployment in a DD would be fairly swift on current poll numbers.
278 David Charles – now come on David you must know the answer. I don’t. You just don’t put that out there and leave it at that. Where did YOU get this information?
279 Socrates thanks for the link. I note also economists are sceptical about Nelson’s petrol tax cut plan.
If the audio link doesn’t work go to the abc link and find the audio link.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/16/2246675.htm
Audio: Economists sceptical about Nelson’s petrol tax cut plan (AM)
278 David Charles – I agree with Gary. There is no mention of that claim on any of the WA news sites or blogs that I just checked. What is your basis for asking that question/making that claim?
I hope it isn’t another diversion desperation tactic a la the Libs in the last Federal election, claiming candidates were inelligible and all sorts of groundless scares because they knew they were toast.
278 Gary
Following on from David:
It’s a story on News Radio I heard this morning.
from what I remember:
It was said as a joke when discussing the topic of inhabitants of correctional facilities having the vote. (I can’t remember the forum of discussion)
He later called journalists and asked them not to run the comments.
He has refused to apologise for the joke on the grounds that he meant no malice and it was just a joke.
I guess you had to be there, but it’s not a good look out of context.
Nelson was interviewed on Mitchell (AW) this morning and couldn’t give any details as to how his petrol plan would work. Well thought out wouldn’t you say? I wonder when he thought of it, yesterday afternoon?
Thanks 283 onimod. Jokes like that can get politicians into awful trouble. Best left unsaid.
Gary
Don’t get me started on the petrol tax cut plan. I was only focusing on the incoherent and logically false aspects of Nelson’s speech; I didn’t go through each individual stupid idea. As for the petrol tax cut, here are the problems:
- first, it reduces the surplus several billion and hence increases inflation pressures
- second, it makes bugger all difference – petrol has more than doubled in three years, and this would take 5 cents off the price – so what? How does that save anyone’s mortgage?Australian petrol taxes are already amoung the lowest in the OECD.
- third, it is niave to expect that this problem will go away. Stopping profiteering from short term price spikes near weekends is one thing, but there is no evidence that the long term trend price is going anywhere but up.
The only real long term solution is investment in public transport and more efficient vehicles (the fuel economy of Australia’s light vehicle fleet in 2006 was actually slightly WORSE than it was in the early 1980s.)
I frankly wasn’t too impressed with some of Labor’s recent comments on increasign oil exploration in new offshore areas. Oil exploration activity is intense world wide now; you can’t hire a drilling rig or good petroleum geologist for love or money. Yet new discoveries are not keeping pace with demand growth, mainly from China. So dreaming that a few local deep ocean strikes will suddenly get us cheap oil again is pretty unrealistic. Cheap oil is gone; kaput. But now, incredibly, Nelson has said something even dumber.
278 David Charles – my apology; I just saw Onimod’s answer. What a stupid thing to say.
GB (280) I am losing respect for you following your (unnecessary) outburst. Socrates (282) had no business agreeing with you. I asked a question and Onimod (283) was good enough to confirm the details. I heard a very cursory report of the subject on ABC (NSW) local radio last night while I was driving my son home from sports practice.
Socrates (287) Thanks for your apology. I agree it was a stupid thing to say even if it was said as a “joke” and McGinty wanted it “off the record”.
Sorry David, I’m used to people stirring on here. You are obviously not one of them.
286 Socrates – agreed. The only way to bring down oil prices is to bring down the demand and while doing so the enviroment can also benefit. Makes sense.
The context was that the proposition was put to McGinty by a journalist that Labor was reinstating the right to vote for people serving sentences of less than three years because such criminals tended to be Labor supporters.
McGinty replied to the effect that a recent High Court decision made the existing restriction illegal, and in any event (joking) he understood pedophiles were Liberal supporters.
Inappripriate yes, but in the context of responding to an insolent, loaded question, understandable.
inappropriate
This is how prisoners voted in my electorate.
Liberal, Greens, Nationals, Labor, Democrats, Independent…..nil
Informal……………………………………………………………….1
Family First……………………………………………………………1
Just thought you would like to know.
Oh dear – small mans syndrome strikes again.
I have respect for a lot of Greens policy, but it’s hard to support the following example of political opportunism:
Greens threaten to oppose alcopop tax
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23707670-601,00.html
The reason no one had gone to speak to lonely Bob is that no-one in their right mind thought there would be opposition to equalising the tax on alcopops, either when considered as a health issue in isolation, or even as an isolated taxation issue. How is it that one plus one now equals zero?
We’re behind in this issue when compared with Europe and the US. In a/some (can’t remember) European country they tax alcopos at a rate 4 times that of spirits alone.
The health issue is about more than just the alcohol content, it’s about the culture that develops when alcohol is introduced as a sweet where the initial taste and consumption gives no hint of the alcohol content.
Fulvio (292) The further information you kindly provided about the context of McGinty’s remark, is very important. It is why I sought particulars from someone with local knowledge.
I’m really all for giving pensioners a better deal. More power to them. I just have one question though, where were they last year or the previous year?
297
Hiding under the bed from those ‘islamo-fascists’.
Now that they feel safe enough to come out and live again they want some spending money.
All jokes aside, the ‘you’re-with-us-or-against-us’ mentality and the willingness of groups to play that game politically has hurt a lot of people.
People might believe in whatever side of politics, but voting for them blindly is not very smart. You might say that pensioners have voted for ‘the good of the nation’ for the last decade, but in doing so they’ve agreed to net losses in living standards, though most of them don’t even realise it now. I find it all a bit sad and uneducated really.
Anyone want a giggle at the actual numbers of Tarago’s involved in the “Tarago Tax”?
http://possumcomitatus.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/nelsons-tarago-too-far/
The non-government parties are suffering relevance deprivation syndrome which leads them to make their stand on things they really should leave alone or support.
It has to be fairly obvious that selling alcohol dressesed up as a cutish soft drink is intended to get the youngest demographic drinking and, particularly young women.
Its a no brainer that seems to have worked a charm and attacted the no brainers Brown and Nelson. Most of the population are going to assume that an alcoholic drink called ‘alco-pop’ is a trap for the young.
A Nelson is going to block this in the Senate? That is going to look pretty damn silly especially when you have all the ‘experts’ saying he is wrong.
The thing is Nelson knows that it is bad but has become so desperate to win some votes that he is willing to make a stand on it. It may work, it will win some over who like the idea of him making a stand on something. However it will no doubt make more secure a lot of soft ALP voters who will now know for sure the LNP has lost its soul.
Nelson has so far sympathised with bankers who force sale of peoples homes, supports welfare to the rich, doesnt support taxing ‘luxury’ cars at a higher rate, not interested in protecting teenage/young women from binge drinking, thinks inflation is an over blown issue.
299 Possum Comitatus – That is brilliant Possum. If that doesn’t make it into parliament I’ll go he.
Brenda is full off p#ss and wind.
He’s going to oppose the alcopop tax that has allready been added. Bit late now wouldn’t you thunk?
“With the new tax on ready-to-drinks already being collected, the Opposition decision raises the prospect that the tax could eventually be declared illegal. Incoming independent Nick Xenophon said he would wait until he had taken his place before deciding his position on the issue. Family First senator Steve Fielding is also undecided.”
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23705992-911,00.html
I don’t know how to comment on the politics, but the claims that all pensioners are struggling are false: “Australia’s 3.5-million pensioners are overlooked Australians, and are really struggling to make ends meet living off the pension,” Senator Fielding said.
See
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/16/2246997.htm
It may be unpopular ot say but, while some pensioners do indeed struggle, many benefits are not means-tested and so some people receiving benefits are in asset terms millionaires. Those that claim to be “asset rich but income poor” are often so only because they have systematically engineered their finances to be so, in order to claim the pension. Others have deliberately spent their super, meant to provide for their retirement, on lavish trips and 4WDs, rather than saving it to live on. This is greed at work, not need.
Statistically in Australia, our poorest are generally our young, especially singles who are renting. You can find rich and poor individuals in every age group, but the facts are that those over 55 are on average the wealthiest in our society.
Has anyone seen or heard of a business representative criticising the budget? I haven’t. It can’t be bad for business can it?
Gary 305
Not to my knowledge, because any business concerned about its finance costs would have been relieved with the focus on inflation (interest rates matter to business too).
Even the Economist (not that it means that much) has said it was sensible. Serious economists like John Quiggan have generally rated it well, with the exception of lost opportunities on reducing company car tax benefits and more action on climate change. But overall macro-economic balance is pretty sound.
Nelson supported the tax changes on alcopops when it was announced. Another backflip. Does this man or party actually STAND for anything any more??
On Ch9 TV news this afternoon the Anz Bank chief economist slammed Nelson’s budget reply as irresponsible and inflationary.
304
my favourite:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/swan-outflanks-turnbull/2008/05/14/1210444517954.html
Albull’s former sandpit, Goldman Sachs put it simply:
“After two years of notable conflict we finally have fiscal policy that is pushing in the same direction as monetary policy.
The reduction in new policy decisions is equal to the coalition’s first and only attempt at fiscal restraint”
Gary Bruce. The solar panel businesses say they are likely to go down the gurgler as a result of the means test on income earners over $100,000 no longer being eligible for the rebate. Can’t remember the size of the rebate, pretty hefty though, around $8000. Many cancelled orders already. Govt allegedly targetting those who can least afford solar panels, but business says the majority cannot afford to shoulder the cost anyway, even with the rebate. Maybe the top of that income ceiling can, but anyone most in need of reducing their power costs would find the outlay unaffordable, it is said.
Did they means test the Gas conversion on Cars rebate? That would make more sense that the solar panel rebate being means tested.
Crikey
Yes we put in panels with the rebate. It was an amount per watt installed ($*) capped at 1000 watts, hence $8000 limit. Our installation cost about $13500 less rebate = $5500. Without the rebate its not really economic.
309
Crikey – I’m guessing you’ve seen this:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/05/16/killing-solar-pv-softly/
Apparently the PV industry on the household scale is a bit of a waste of money and not really worth subsidising in it’s current form.
I’d prefer a coherrent policy and implementation, but a developing one is better than none at all, or the crap on the back of an envelope style stuff.
So the shadow minister for pensions thinks the pension will be increased – unfortunately she forgot to mention it to the “leadership team” surely if you are a shadow minister you are part of the “leadership team”?
Can the Liberal party descend into more uselessness?
Unbelievable???
I tune into tonights news and I see pensioners stripping off at Flinders Street station in Melbourne because Rudd didn’t give ‘em enough in the budget. Are they for real? Now they decide to protest after all these years. What a laugh!
I hate to break it to ‘em but it was their hero Howard who introduced the GST and indexed their pension benefits to CPI and not average weekly earnings. They’re only protesting now because there is a chance they might get something out of the Rudd labor government.
If it was the Labor party who opposed the alcopops tax and backflipped on the fuel excise the MSM would have crucified them.
The MSM are a joke! They are even glorifying those Melbourne gangsters now.
And also introduced Welfare To Work which forced NEW Disability Pensioners onto Newstart if they didn’t meet the new 15 hour per fortnight work rule..
Age Pensions
Maximum Pension Rate Per Fortnight
Single $546.80
Couple $456.80 (each)
Additional payments and benefits you may be entitled to:
Pharmaceutical Allowance may be payable.
Rent Assistance may be payable.
Telephone Allowance may be payable.
Utilities Allowance may be payable.
Remote Area Allowance may be payable.
A $500 Advance Payment of Age Pension may be available.
You may also be eligible for a Pension Concession Card
http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/pay_how_agepens.htm
singles are doing it a bit tough but couples ain’t got a lot to complain about.
311
Socrates – I’d love to have a chat at length about your installation at some point.
Let me know if you’re interested.
The bill for age pension is about $25 billion if I remember rightly. That is also set to grew as the aging population gets older. So a 10% boost is going to cost about $2.5 billion. The problem is that $2.5 billion is just going to be spent which will drive up inflation.
Just saw the “Protest” on Today Tonight – their argument falls flat slighty when a “Struggling Pensioner Couple” are shown driving a 4 Wheel Drive vehicle.
What’s the odds they were all Family First members too? Or did Fielding just happen to find the protest by luck? How many were there too? I saw about a dozen at most. Mind you, anyone willing to get their kit off in Melbourne weather is fairly brave.
I noticed John Michael Howson in the crowd, and he’s not short of a buck either. But it does look like a Fundies first stunt.
In truth the MSM have turned the whole budget process into a circus. Channel 7 and mark riley a case in point – either instigating the “pensioner revolt” aka “revolting pensioners” or very close to it.
Shanananhan not much better either !
What some of you may not know is that 3AW, Neil Mitchell, received an e-mail early in the week (Monday I think) from a pensioner suggesting jokingly that they should gather outside Flinders Street Station topless and protest about the BRUMBY governments treatment of pensioners. Mitchell then pushed this for all it was worth. So it was being organised before the federal budget. Sponsored by AW and by a bloke who rails against unions and taxi drivers for doing just what the pensioners did. Mitchell was shirty on the taxi drivers and teachers getting their own way with Brumby. He thought if it can work for them then it can work for the pensioners. What a bloody hypocrite.
Guess what station John Michael Howson works for and guess what his politics is?
I would estimate a hundred or so. not really all that good given the leg up it received by AW, given that their audience would be predominantly in that age group.
Which is ironic as it was the McMahon Govt in power when the ABC axed Advenure Island in 1972 which Howson both wrote and appeared as Clown.
How apt Frank.
It was like one of the Rally For Justice here in WA organised by the late Joan Troy and egged on by Howard Sattler, the First one had 1,000 protestors, the second a couple of hundred, and the 3rd one which I observed had 5, including a senior citizen piper, there were actyually more police officers escorting the march than protestors.
Marky Marky might do well to read this article by Michelle Grattan. She argues Rudd Government is turning into a real Labor government.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/a-real-son-of-the-alp/2008/05/15/1210765051008.html
It was actually 150 people, still a piss poor effort.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/16/2246997.htm
Ok. It shows I am not in Melbourne at the moment. Not that I listen to 3AW when I am there. The Fundies probably were there just trying to get some publicity.
I like Michelle Grattan’s conclusion. “But the budget, product of primarily of Rudd, Swan and Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner, should be “Labor” enough to impress the party faithful, just as it has impressed quite a few in business, rather a remarkable double.”
Rudd will have those pensioners eating out of his hand by the time of the next election IMHO.
Was Dr Who’s? reply, simply an attempt to “stop the rot” when it comes to the Coalition base?. In Possums thingy he reckoned that this “I’ve never even considered the ALP before but perhaps now I might” movement is a serious problem for the Libs
1st… We get the bogan’s … then, we get the babies … THEN!, we get the women!
Crikey Whitey @ 309 -
Don’t know why there would be so many cancelled orders because of the $100K income limit as I assume those who have ordered would also have submitted the paperwork to get approval for the rebate and these should be covered on the old rules.
Anyway, for anyone living outside of SA and QLD, solar isn’t really worth it financially. Both those states are introducing a 44 cents/kwh payment on the power you feed into the grid which may give you a better than bank interest return on the investment for a 1KWh system ($3,800 to $5,000 after the federal rebate, plus another $440 for an electronic meter). Economically it doesn’t make sense to get anything bigger, though some do for environmental reasons.
I’m happy with my system, however, the rebate money would probably have been better spent on setting up large solar arrays in the bush.
onimod at 312
No, I had not. Thank you.
MayoFeral at 334. I do not pretend to understand, but reporting on what was said. It was, I suppose one should guess, ABC Radio.
Lateline is just on, issue is featured.
hmm, and the Hun have reported the “Pensioner” protest figures at 350, while Perth Now with AAP reported “Thousands”.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23707924-661,00.html
Note the bile in the comments.
Nevertheless, Frank. Can you, or anyone, put an argument against the base level of pensions being lifted. And any nonsense about adding to inflation will not constitute an argument. Given that pensioners are unlikely to rush off and buy plasmas, have babies, or even eat that much more. Probably they would like to be able to pay their bills. And pay for their taxis, and prescriptions, and hire needs for equipment, such as shower chairs. Hardly inflationary.
Shaun Carney rips into Nelson and the Libs.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/a-reckless-reply/2008/05/16/1210765169660.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
I’m not so much worried about old age pensioners as those on disability pensions.
It’s not as if being on the old age pension creeps up on you unexpectedly. Anyone with even a miniscule of brain matter plans for when they’re no longer working. The majority of pensioners therefore do not have a mortgage; many of them have sold their equivalent of a McMansion and downsized, which also helps.
A disabled pensioner, on the other hand, has had no opportunity to prepare themselves for life on the pension (noone says “Well, I’d better pay off the mortgage as a priority, I’m going to be permanently disabled in two years’ time”). Their expenses are arguably higher than a normal pensioners, and their long term prospects pretty dismal – if they haven’t already got the house or the car, there’s no real prospect of them ever being able to afford them.
I’m far more sympathetic to their plight than that of the rather chubby looking old people I saw divesting themselves of good quality clothing.
Zoom
I agree; my comments on post 303 related to old age pensioners. Other types such as disabled pensioners often have a much greater need for assistance and may have had no prior opportunity to save due to circumstances beyond their control. Single supporting parents are another group that shows up as clearly socially disadvantaged on most economic statistics and deserving assistance.
I should add that I’m not against any increase of benefits to old age pensoners either. But I think there are higher priorities at a time when we ought to be cutting spending. And IF those benefits go up, they should be carefully targetted and means tested. Old age pensions consume very large chunks of the budget, and the money is almost all spent, not invested. Hence at the risk of sounding like an economic rationalist, it is inflationary.
For those you haven’t seen it, have a read of “If you are liberal and you know it bash a teacher” at Larvatus Prodeo.
There is also soime intersting thoughts at:
http://www.yourdemocracy.net.au/drupal/node/6361
HEAR HEAR!
It seems the SMH is aguing that people on $3000 a WEEK should be getting the baby bonus etc. I don’t buy it.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/more-pain-for-110000/2008/05/17/1210765188978.html
Meanwhile, at the Oz we have this headline “Robin Hood Wayne Swan goes easy on the well-off” and this article.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23711765-5017014,00.html
A clear cut case of “You can’t win”.
Here we go again:
Troy Buswell accused of grabbing MP’s testicles
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23710071-2,00.html
“Mr Buswell allegedly grabbed the backbencher in the crotch on the same night he snapped a Labor staffer’s bra during a drunken night at Parliament House last October.”
WA parliament sounds like a teenage disco.
I’m no Buswell fan by any means but surely they politically have him by the short and curlies now. These things can just get out of hand. I hate to say this but I’m beginning to feel sorry for the guy. Just let him crash and burn in silence now.
is it possible to squirrel-grip a quokka?
from the article:
“the “working middle class” north-west, in suburbs like Castle Hill, Baulkham Hills, Cherrybrook and West Pennant Hills.”
LOL .. yeah I’m really gonna feel the pain for someone living in West Pennant Hills …
the SMH is really sh1tting me these last few years … their editorial today about the budget is a load of crap as well
Brendan’s latest simpleton argument – we don’t need to bring in skilled labour if unemployment is set to rise. Ie just skill up those who lose their jobs so that they can go to the areas that are lacking workers. Easy. Spot the the problems with this argument.
Gary @ 349,
You can’t skill up an ex opposition leader?
The baby bonus served the purpose of the liberal party’s porkbarrelling, and welfare for the rich – which is tax cuts for the rich.
The budget record of the Howard /Costello government:
Year 1. Tax cuts for the rich.
Year 2. Tax cuts for the rich.
Year 3. Porkbarrelling.
Other forms of tax cuts for the rich:
- Your tax paying dollars going to someone else richer than you for having a kid. You may not want to have a kid
- Your tax paying dollars going to someone else richer than you for taking out private health insurance. You may not want private health insurance.
- Your tax paying dollars going to someone else richer than you for sending their kids to a private school. You may not want to send your kid to a private school.
That’s what the liberal party stands for – TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH.
Whats with Christian Kurr getting a front page bit in the Weekend OO with a very long and labored piece on how the alcopop tax is a intricate consipiracy by Rudd which, after getting half way I skimmed in boredom. I think the whole thing could have been written in two paragraphs not twenty or so. Ex Liberal staffers running the stories now?
Then there was the complaint of Rudd’s office trying to manipulate the media, ignorant naive dolts that they at the Australian must of course be. Really? a government trying to manage their news cycles, what a revelation. The press themselves wouldn’t be toxic to Labour would they?
I find it really funny coming from the pages of the OO, Australia’s premier neocon flag waving paper and the temporary leader of the Liberal party while the Opposition try to get their act together.
You only have to read the first few paragraphs of the OO editorial to know that some of these people are in genuine psychological denial over Howard’s defeat.
Read this bizarre bit of school boy lashing out from the Editor.
“…Labor has squandered an opportunity and played it safe, raising questions about whether it was ready for government or won office by default.”
Talk about Downer style petulance and spite.
These people are still fighting the election and think they still have to do everything they can to stop neoconism from losing. Oh how they must be suffering withdrawal symptoms of having no pats on the head from John Howard for every Liberal supporting piece they do. The write their stuff to pull down Labor and support the Liberals…but they get no fix from it, there is no Howard or minister saying ‘good boy’ to them anymore, they wag their tales, salivate in anticipation of reward…and…nothing. They have lost their drug.
If they were a half way genuine paper they would be exposing a totally incompetent and incoherent Opposition.
The only person to make much sense among them was Paul Kelly who seems to have slipped into political observer mode rather than partisan.
AND to boot the OO seems to pitching for the neocons and doing an anti-Obama take on USA politics. I don’t know why they would bother here in OZ. Their 3 headlines on USA politics are:
Hillary’s avengers to hit Obama
McCain sets out lofty ambitions
Media’s unholy rush to worship at altar of Obama
Maybe they just hate Obama because they see too many similarities between him and Rudd or they are still supporting Howard’s memory and his attack on Obama.
We have two pension systems both costing about the same. The Old Age Pension costs the Federal Govt about the same amount as the removal of tax on superannuation when people turn 60.
Not a bad policy but ill thought out, if people have had super for 40 years they probably will not need the OAP but people now have only had super for about 15 years, not enough to live on.
Costello and Howard forgot about these people and prefered to give tax breaks to people who had a lazy million bucks to put into super.
If this “policy” was not put in place (the allowing for people to top up their tax free super) pensions could have been increased dramatically with no cost to the budget bottom line.
Nelson is off his tree.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23713327-5005361,00.html
Yep, that’s it – he’s exposed the deep underlying motivation of the Labor party for many years now.
I am willing to exclusively reveal to you, my fellow poll bludgers (on condition, of course, that you don’t tell anyone else, but hey? what trouble can I get into, posting anonymously on the internet??) that several years ago Labor decided that they wanted to get guys who drank Bundy and bourbon.
No particular reason, we just have this thing about guys who drive utes with ‘Cobargo Pub’ stickers on the back.
Deep in party HQ, we met to discuss how, if ever we won government again, we could get these guys good.
Noone can now identify who cried out, in a moment of inspiration “Tax pre mixed drinks!” but all present can testify to the deep, almost spiritual silence that fell over the room.
We realised then that we had it: the perfect plan.
Win government, and then sneak in a tax – cunningly called an excise, just in case somebody was looking – specifically aimed at Bundy and Coke drinkers.
Now, of course, having achieved our aim (and unfortunately been outed by the sharp, dare I say clinical, brain of Dr Nelson) we don’t give a stuff about staying in government and will hand it all back to the Liberals, to whom we recognise it rightly belongs.
ruawake
Super is about a lot more than the pension. Consider the poor rate of saving we had in Australia, and the advantage of giving pay rises that don’t put pressure on inflations, and then consider when it all started.
Vera @ #316
Jeez I am amazed at your figures for pensions. When I first looked I thought “Well that’s not too bad” then I saw it was ‘per fortnight’.
That’s less than $30,000 a year for a couple. People can’t live on that.
And the benefits should be automatic anyway.
Those figures are disgraceful.
Depends if you have to pay for accommodation. We live off about the same amount since I salary sacrifice almost my entire salary. Big difference if you own your place or not.
Not wishing to get into a fight about who’s worse off, but spare a thought for those on DVA invalidity pensions (for service personnel injured in peacetime) who don’t get many of the extra benefits and concessions. Their payments are also subject to tax, unlike the civilian DSP. The only concession is that once they turn 60 there is a 10% tax offset.
Those of a service super/pension also get fewer concessions than age pensioners.
BTW- in 1977 the High Court ruled that the invalidity pensions should be tax exempt. The Fraser government amended the tax act specifically to nullify the HC ruling. Now I wonder who the treasurer was at the time?!
Anyway you slice it there are a lot of people who are being neglected in this society of ours in what is claimed to be boom times.
Not good enough, we could and should do better.
Well past time for a change in societal values.
360 fred
The other side of that coin is that there are a lot of people who are neglecting their responsibility TO the society.
The net positive to society of owning 2 4wd’s, all the other ancillaries and living 1.5hrs travel from your place of ‘work’ is getting a little dubious, wouldn’t you say?
Like most things, there’s a cost side and an expenditure side to the equation.
There are a lot of costs to a lot of things we place under the banner of ‘freedom’, which look and sound nice when considered from the perspective of the individual, but don’t necessarily add up when considered from the perspective of the group.
For (limited) example:
It wasn’t so long ago that the elders in the community lived with, and were cared for by, their offspring in their later years, and in return provided other social services in return. Has the movement of seniors into their own separate accommodation been a good thing, for them and the rest of the community, culturally or economically?
Hmmm – tough questions, with little black or white on either side.
Just one comments on the financial and political aspects of the health insurance rebate. Swan should just say that any saving by government from departurs from health funds (eg in terms of less matching subsidies) will be made up by higher payments to public hospitals. That should eliminate any arguments from States, and improve the health system too.
Mayo, all pensions are subject to tax. They’re income. Centrelink doesn’t withdraw tax up front (although it gives you the option to nominate a sum to be sent to the ATO) but you get a group certificate at the end of the financial year and are expected to file a tax return. (There’s even facilities for cross referencing Centrelink payments and ATO returns, to check you’ve done this).
I actually think it’s a ridiculous situation. Either the taxable limit should be set higher than the pension, or taxes should be taken out of the pension before it’s paid.
If I could reform the tax system, I’d look at ways of removing tax altogether from public service wages (that is, their nominal wage would initially go down, but there’d be no tax withdrawn. Expense claims could still go in at tax time) and pensions.
This would save a lot of paper shuffling, for starters.
Just had a look at Sky news They had clips of Allbull Brenda and Swanny, and questioned how the opposition would fund the billions of $s hole left when they blocked all that stuff in the budget.
Brenda said it was all costed, Allbull said it was 2&1/2 years until the next election so there was no need to put out policy or costing until then and Swanny (looking more confident as each day goes by said about Allbull “His economic credibility is on life support,”
Kina I reckon it’s great to see the OO writhing and screaming on the floor spitting bile and venom because nobody is giving a sh#t about any of the lies and crap the print anymore. Losers!
ABC story similar to the Sky news one
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/18/2248168.htm
The Private Health funds having a cry and stating increases are on the way, yep as if their have not been increases in premiums for the last five years… Time the Health funds disappeared and we were all in the public system. Next thing they should attack is the private health rebate and use the money for the public health system.
The newspapers going to town on the issue possibly because the private funds are key advertisers.
Brendan said we’d have the opposition costings before the next election and Barrie Cassidy didn’t even respond with a follow up – just hand balled the footy to him for the next opposition issue.
Absolutely pathetic journalism.
zoom @ 363 -
No, civilian Disability Support Pension payments are not assessable income for taxation purposes until the recipient reaches Aged Pension age. The same applies to the carer allowance and payments. Payments to blind Aged Pension recipients are also tax free.
I can’t find anything on the Centrelink site stating this, but this states the position as at 2001/2 and the tax provisions have not changed since.
Some DVA invalidity pensions are tax free up to Aged pension age, but not classes A & B which covers most recipients. See: http://www.rdfwa.org.au/updates/215.htm
I am on a DSP and it definately NOT taxed.
Mayo
a quick google shows that you are right and I am wrong.
Apologies.
Vera 365
Thansk for that ABC link on the Nelson – Turnbull contradiction. I liked this quote in particular:
“All of our policies are and will be fully costed and budgeted,” he said.”
So which is it – all of our policies ARE costed or all of our policies WILL BE costed? Unless my english teacher lied to me about present and future tense it can’t be both. If all the coalition’s policies really have been costed, then teh obvious question: can we see teh costings please? Where will you find teh extra $1.8 billion? What will you cut? or How much do you expect to put up interest rates?
Zoom 363
I recall a comment that there is now a plan to put the tax free threshold back to $16000 over the next few years. This will make a big difference, sicne anyone on part time jobs making less than $300 a week will pay no tax.
However, as an ex public servant I have to say that your proposal for public servant tax and pay would not be workable. From an individual POV, people on different circumstances can get the say gross pay but via various rebates received different take home pay. Eliminating this would effectively also remove the value of any family tax breaks etc from public servants pay. From a government POV, it would make reliable comparison of doing work by public or private means impossible. (I’m not suggesting that I’m in favour of privatising everythign, but you ned ot kow where you stand to make correct policy).
Does anyone know how much the 30% rebate is costing the Govt at the moment?
Sorry, that refers to the health insurance rebate.
Price Waterhouse Coopers are running a mile from that study they did on the effect of the Medicare changes ie people opting out of private funds. They claim it was based on figures supplied to them by, guess who, the private health industry.
I think it is something like 5 billion a year.
From the budget figures 500,000 less people claiming the 30% rebate would save the government $900 million. The lack of the 1% surcharge from those people would cost the government $600 million.
It obviously assumed that every single person who gives up health insurance will actually need to go to a public hospital within the next, which is just an absurd absolute worst case scenario.
Turnbull was absolutely spot on this morning. He said that “it will be several (note several) years before the liberals are in government again”.
I would suggest to Allbull that he at the least gets with Brenda before press interviews to discuss tactics in future.
What about the accounting firm wanting to distance itself from the report commissioned by the health insurance industry and the liberal party???
The liberals are a shameful embarrassment. Poor Gerrard Henderson wanted to crawl under his chair on Insiders this morning. He can see the economic legacy of Howard/Costello heading down the gurglar big time.
I would rate this current opposition as the worst I have ever seen. Maybe they could recruit Mark Latham. He couldn’t do any worse and at least he would make sure that they got their story straight. LOL.
Economic legacy of Howard/Costello, sorry they had it good their was no economic legacy. Costello is the worst treasurer we have ever had.
Nelson simply has no idea, he is an embarrassment and Turnbull well if he becomes leader what kind of team will he have.
“From the budget figures 500,000 less people claiming the 30% rebate would save the government $900 million.”
So there we have it. The Howard govt gave $900m to medical insurance companies to cover people who probably wouldn’t use or want it. Basically a direct gift to the pockets of his mates.
No wonder they are squealing. Roxon should commission an investigation into the industry especially their reasons for upping premiums being the addition of more members (when the rebate was instituted) and, if they increase premiums because of a loss of members. They would have to be lying one way or another.
Being given a billion to cover a population segment that would hardly use it then increase premiums because of it is a 1st class con job. That is if it is true what people are saying, that they got letters giving that reason for the premiun increase.
SO where are the papers protecting the people’s interest on this, exposing the rort?
Check out this Private Health Insurance search engine that compares different insurance policies:
http://www.iselect.com.au/
Look at the options in the “I’m Interested In” drop down box:
Top benefit cover
Intermediate benefit cover
Basic benefit cover
The fourth one is the doozy
“Cover to avoid tax & penalties” aka private health insurance for people that don’t actually want to spend money on private health insurance.
Talk about corporate socialism…
“Cover to avoid tax & penalties” aka private health insurance for people that don’t actually want to spend money on private health insurance.”
Sound like the Mafia visiting the local shops looking for protection money. Pay us or we will do you, we will send the ATO around to get you.
Go Rudd, fix these pricks up.
Kina & Shows On
Have a look at who was the first to make noise on the issue and you’ve got the next piece of the puzzle – that’s right, the AMA.
When there’s that much slush flowing around, there’s enough for everyone.
What’s the chances of a journalist looking further than the press releases on this one? I’m not hopeful. There’s a lot of advertising dollars to protect here.
Claims made that by taking out private health insurance helps relieve pressure off the public system – is a furphy.
According to that logic, you could take all the pressure off the public system in the world by making it that everyone had to take out private health insurance. No thanks. I would rather see all those profits reinvested into a public health system, instead of the coffers of private insurance companys.
If you don’t believe me, just check the health system of the strongest economy in the world. The place is a DIVE.
We should have a choice. You can have either public or private. The ones who choose public should not fund private and the ones who choose private should not fund public.
If private health insurers can supply a superior product – then good luck to them – they should go for it!
I don’t understand how the additional 1% tax for not having Private Health Insurance was ever justified.
Being taxed extra for not wanting to give money to a private company???
How is that a choice?
382
spot on
If the private industry can supply a superior system – infrastructure & personnel, then good luck to them.
I have little doubt there is already a core clientele who will pay whatever it takes and require no subsidy. It sounds like the start of a niche business model; not like the large scale closed shop protectionism we’re dragging along behind us now.
As per Possum’s position on an evolving policy platform without the colour-by-numbers instruction manual for dummies included, it’ll be interesting to see what the next move is.
Just think of the money and negotiating that’s keeping Nelson up to the plate on the threatened Senate block. How much is a couple of months continuation of the status quo worth?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/18/2248234.htm
Of course this means the industry is simply lying through its teeth.
Would also be interesting to get the stats on hospital visits/procedures by age group.
It is difficult to pinpoint the truly disgusting, but, as I mentioned, not long before the election, Ramsey Health comes to mind, was that Howard was funneling taxpayer dollars into any kind of private health, with no doubt that a part of that money, ours, would be immediately returned in the form of campaign donations.
I suspect the biggest furphy in this health debate is the claim that people leaving the private funds will swell public hospital waiting lists.
Two years ago I had half my left lung removed which is one of the more serious ops to have. Despite having a DVA gold card which would have paid for a private hospital I elected to have it done in the Royal Adelaide because I figured a large hospital that caters for all specialties would be the safest place to be if it went pear shaped.
I wasn’t alone in thinking that. I was the only lung patient in the ward, the others were all in for heart surgery and 5 of the 6 had private insurance but had also sought the safety of a full equipped public hospital.
Which begs the question, how many of the privately insured actually use private hospitals, especially for the reallu serious stuff? I’m guessing not a lot.
BTW – the oncologist I got at the hospital’s chest clinic is one of the top lung cancer specialists in the country and the author of over 40 papers, the surgeon teaches the procedure to others not only in SA but interstate and he was assisted by the head of the thoracic unit. And all that expertise didn’t cost me a cent!
Admittedly, the facilities weren’t up to private standards – Adelaide had a record heat wave that week and the primitive airconditioning system barely made an impression, but the staff were great and anyway I was doped up on so much morphine that I was beyond caring about the lack of gold plated taps and marble flooring, etc.
Mmmh, MayoFeral. You are correct. Sure, the marble floor is lacking, the air could do with a refit, but the service is cool. Not that I have yet to endure any surgery.
But I would put my faith in a public hospital, anytime.
As, it seems that even private health holders do.
Next on the hit list, as I have said, the Safety Net, which currently looks after the rich and self indulgent. Seems impossible to reach the Safety Net unless one goes in for hugely expensive procedures or examinations. Which, of course, if money is no object, falls right into the hands of those who can afford to reach the limit in the first place. A la the Mossmans. Figures are available.
It seems there is a Galaxy Poll on the budget in the Courier Mail tomorrow and guess what, the pensioners are unhappy and the budget doesn’t go over well. Surprise, surprise. I wonder how they worded the questions.
Ok, Which Nursing Home/Pensioner Club did they target ?
Well, here’s the poll and I’m not sure the results warrant the headline.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23718760-952,00.html
“A total of 33per cent of people think they will be worse off after the Budget changes, far more than the 23per cent who think they will be better off.”
By my reckoning that means no change for 44%. So 67% see the budget as being either neutral or beneficial to them. Not a bad result that for a tough budget.
“A total of 41per cent of people aged over 50 believe they will be worse off, including 18per cent who think they will be “much worse off”.”
Again, by my reckoning 59% don’t think they will be worse off. Not a bad result.
319
LOL Swanny being seen as a better economic manager than Allbull would have hurt wouldn’t it.
One must always remember that if the Howard govt was still in power just how much further they would take us down their sick path, the many more millions of the Australian peoples money they would donate to private enterprise under some lie or other.
I can just see some small company being given millions to advance nuclear power in Australia, or some other company being given millions to further ethanol in Australia….maybe medical insurance rebate would go up to 50% and insurance companies allowed to increase their premiums by a same amount – a direct transfer of taxpayer money to private business – but not the slightest benefit to Australia.
We have to wonder sometimes who Howard thought he was PM for.
Thank god the man and his insidious diseased band of men are gone from govt.
393 Vera – Too right. I’m yet to find the bad news for the government in this poll.
I just wonder if Rudd has lead Turnbull and Nelson down his own path again. Rudd can deal with pensions and pensioner benefits – improving the lot of the needy but means testing those who are not needy. Increase pensions on one hand and reduce it from the big asset holders on the other hand.
Means testing is such an equitable sounding thing that Nelson will be hard pressed arguing against it when Rudd wants to use it to take benefits away from the well off.
This is a crack-up LOL Brenden the Booze Brother, love it!
“THE kiddie-liquor tax debate is clearly taking it out of Brendan Nelson.
Appearing on ABC1’s Insiders, the Booze Brother looked completely cream-crackered. His face, give or take the odd flap of the eyebrows, spent the bulk of the interview as bereft of movement as Nicole Kidman’s forehead. Perhaps the effort of coining the word alco-con had left him drained of energy. Perhaps it was former Howard minister John Herron’s helpful letter to Kevin Rudd, congratulating him on the alcopop tax hike, that had sucked the olive out of his martini. Maybe he’d caught wind of what new stunt Family First senator Steve Fielding has planned. Then again, it could have been the knowledge that his treasury spokesman, Malcolm Turnbull, was busy on the Nine Network contradicting him on fuel excise cuts. Either way, Nelson looked like he could really do with a drink.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23718908-25090,00.html
The right wing press are going to start getting a little impatient the closer we get to the next election without the LNP having a viable leader.
Maybe they will start to assassinate Nelson to make sure there is no delay or to legitimise a change.
Maybe we should expect Turnbull getting increasing praise, when he hasn’t got a hoof stuck in his mouth.
I see Milne is placing his faith in Liberal Party focus groups. Strange how they are getting the results the Libs want.
Galaxy Poll
Of the 33% who think they are worse off I wonder how many are LNP voters. Of the 41% 0f over 50’s who think they are worse off how many are LNP voters and baised against anything Labor?
I doubt it will make much difference to the ALP vote. it will be interesting to see.
The LNP were hoping for a big swing back from the Budget as it was supposed to be tough.
The Courier Mail is just a tabloid and is poor in quality. I cancelled my subscription to it a long while ago.
I hate to lampoon the befuddled and bewildered, but did anyone else think that Gerard Henderson on the Insiders today looked and sounded like a little boy who just discovered that Father Christmas doesn’t exist? Has there ever been a more crestfallen, pouting panelist on an Australian televion program?
I thought for a while he was going to cry at the realization that his lifelong heroes have feet of clay.
I fear that Nelson is soon going to discover the intrinsic truth in the saying that hell has no fury like a woman (or true believer) scorned or disillusioned.
Regarding the Galaxy poll, even if true (unlikely) it is not surprising there will be a negative reaction to a budget that had to introduce unpopular measures. But by doing the difficult cuts now (except for wimping out on climate change) Swan has put Labor in a position to win in a year or so.
The real test of this budget will be after July, when the delivered tax cuts kick in, and even more so in a year or twos time, when hopefully inflation will be under control and the governmetn has a surplus it can (responsibly) invest on needed infrastrucutre, health etc.
Also, when this budget hits the senate, if the Libs vote against the cuts to the measures like the health rebate, or cuts that are there to reduce inflationary pressures, they will suffer a further drop in the polls.
The children are squabbling again – can someone go and give them a smack please?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/19/2248400.htm
“Opposition treasury spokesman Malcolm Turnbull has denied leaking an email which reportedly said Brendan Nelson’s plan to cut the fuel excise was a bad idea.
The Australian newspaper says Mr Turnbull sent an email to Dr Nelson’s staff before the speech, saying he thought it was bad policy.
In a statement this morning, Mr Turnbull says neither he nor anyone acting on his behalf released the email, and he supports the policy measures announced by Dr Nelson.
But Mr Turnbull’s statement did not deny the email’s reported content.”
I can’t let the comment by Crikey Whitey at 388 go unchallenged. I usually agree wit CW and like her style. But we reached the safety net last year by July and will do so again this year in a couple of weeks. And it is not by having indulgent tests and procedures.My spouse has advanced cancer.
We have private health insurance. When the cancer was diagnosed 4 years ago we opted to have treatment immediately rather than go through the public system. To be honest I don’t know how long we would have had to wait if we had gone public. But it was very comforting to be able to see a named specialist within days.
One of the reason we are so close to the safety net is that my spouse is having an aggressive set of radiotherapy sessions. These are palliative and hopefully will give good quality life for several months if not longer. They will not give a cure. The advice I have had from manager nurses in public oncology is that we would not have been offered so many treatments in the public sector, given the stage of the disease, and we would have had to wait for the treatment to start.
We feel very privileged that we have the option. I am a great supporter of public hospitals. I was lucky enough to be born to (poor) parents who taught me that education was a liberator, and who gave me an excellent education with the result that for some of my life I was able to earn a very good salary. Not every one is so fortunate. But when you find yourself in a situation where life is short and treatment options are limited you make decisions in that framework, and timeframe.
This from Malcolm Farr – “Nearly 70 per cent of households with children fear they will end up being worse off or are unsure about the Budget, Galaxy Research found in weekend polling.
Less than a third of households with children – 31 per cent – believe they will be better off from last Tuesday’s Budget, while 25 per cent said they would be worse off and 44 per cent were uncommitted.
Just 23 per cent of all voters said they would be better off and a third said they would be worse off.”
Let’s put it another way – 75% of households with children were either uncommitted or thought they would be better off under this budget. Of those that did commit more thought they would be better off.
Overall 67% were either uncommitted or thought they would be better off.
404 Constant
This is tough, because I definitely feel for you, and perhaps it’s best we don’t talk about specific circumstances, so I’ll phrase my question this way (and this isn’t a rhetorical question I already have the answer to):
Is there any evidence for reduced waiting for treatment of serious illness in the private vs public system?
It’s quite a common meme to suggest that if we’re paying then we’re entitled to better treatment, but the threads over at Lavartus suggest that if you’re prepared to put up with dust under the bed then equal or better treatment is available in the public system.
I’m certainly not suggesting that you’re not receiving the best treatment Constant. I’d just like to make an informed choice in the future if I have to.
Onimod
I really don’t know the answer to your question. I don’t think anyone knows. I do know from my experience of one private hospital that does a lot of chemo and radiotherapy is that it is not flash. The surroundings are decidedly shabby. I am sure the nursing is no better than public and is maybe inferior.
As a family we are spending quite a bit of our limited savings on health care. In our experience the benefits of the private system have been twofold. One is the immediacy of admittance to hospital for pain relief. The second is that when in hospital we have a private room – shabby but ours. As a family we can be there at any time, often with a friend. We don’t have to worry about disturbing other people. It is our home away from home. I saw both my parents in public hospitals for end stage cancer. They had fantastic care. But sharing rooms with 5 others means you have to be so much more circumspect e.g. bringing little children in to visit, not being there after a certain time. With our circumstances I have been able to visit after I finish work at 9.30pm ans stay for an hour.
For us time is the key factor. Treatment in the long run is not going to make that much difference. But the time we have together with our family and friends is very precious.
I don’t feel any sense of entitlement to ‘better’ treatment. My experience is that health professionals give of their best all the time, no matter what the system.
BTW we are involved in palliative care – public system – and it is very good.
Thanks for the reply Constant.
I imagine the cost of the medical insurance rebate that ends up in private company pockets is the billion that Howard took away from public hospitals?
The winfall to the private companies must have been enormous. 400,000 extra customers making payments but unlikely to make a claim for a decade.
I am waiting and hoping that Rudd will pump those and other billions back into private hospitals.
—————————-
Generally the media is attending to its usual misinformation regarding Labor.
Pity they don’t reflect where we would be at if we had the likes of Abbott, Bishop and Nelson let loose on society. Kyoto would not be ratified, we would be still discussing nuclear, taking the next stage in WorkChoices, States would still be starved of funds for being Labor, Aboriginal land would be in the process of being handed over to mining companies, the ‘intervention’ would most likely to have been starved of future funds, the Democrats would still be terryorists best friends in the USA and of course Hospitals would still be a non-issue with the Federal govt, preferring to reduce their funding percentage to the States…..oh and the Pensioners would have got what in the budget? Inflation would be a non-issue to be dealt with and interest rates would still be aimed at the sky.
So the magnificent media prefer not to reflect and the general population will forget the Ogre that was the Howard govt….for to even complain about any of the above would recieve their condemnation.
On the petrol rebate thing – I did some back of the envelope research this morning on the 5 cent rebate – a barrel of oil is 159 litres. Today the price of a barrel of oil is US$127, which is US$.80 cents a litre. [AU$ is almost at parity at $.96 cents today]
The so called rebate would be swallowed up in about 6 weeks if the oil price continues to rise at the same rate it has done for the first 4 months of this year, and if the petrol companies decide not to profiteer, which would be somewhat unlikely. 6 weeks.
What a waste of time.
They would be better off keeping the petrol excise and having an official standard Petrol Invoice that people could then submitt for refund by the govt at 5c per litre.
Though the cost of setting that up and maintaining it would waste any net benefit to the taxpayer. It would be one way however to guard against petrol companies swallowing any excise reduction.
Oh dear, Turnbull emailed Nelson to say dont do the 5c excise cut, then someone told Glen Milne
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23721013-601,00.html
and it just gets funnier….
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23723056-601,00.html
“Mr Turnbull has denied leaking the email to The Australian newspaper today but has not disputed its contents.
“It’s our policy and that makes it a good policy and we are all supporting it. It was in Brendan’s speech last week and we’re all behind it,” Mr Turnbull said in Sydney.
“I support it because I’m part of the team and it is our Liberal Party, Coalition reply to the budget. And it is a good policy and I do support it personally.”
After reading that I’m still not sure who thinks it is a good policy and who doesn’t, and who supports it publically and who does privately…..and …oh….I give up…
Constant Lurker @ 404 -
My best wishes to your wife, yourself and your family. The big ‘C’ is a real bugger!
onimod @ 405 -
No doubt there are variations depending on the illness and your location, but FWIW, this was my experience:
From the date of the x-ray that picked up a problem to surgery was 7 weeks and 1 day. While that may seem a long time the thing about lung cancer is that for most surgery is a waste of time because the cancer will already have spread and it only complicates treatment. So you get subject to a battery of tests to determine whether you’re a suitable candidate. An added complication was that I’d had a lot of asbestos exposure so the docs needed to be sure it wasn’t a factor. Unfortunately, getting all the boxes ticked takes time. From passing the last hurdle until surgery was only 18 days and this included Christmas and New Year.
Only once did waiting times become an issue The oncologist decided that the delay in getting a CT guided needle biopsy done through the public hospital was too long so he arranged for it to be done at a private hospital (not sure who paid for it, but it wasn’t me).
OTOH, none of the private hospitals have a PET/CT scanner which is an important tool in determining whether surgery is worthwhile.
Now it is possible that instead of doing all the tests one after the other they might have been done in one hit without waiting for any results if I’d gone private. This might have sped things by a week, maybe two, but whether this would have made any difference to me is debatable. However, I’m sure it would have cost the taxpayers a lot more though.
On the public private hospital thing. I have incurable leukeamia, no private health insurance, yet I go to The Mater Private Centre for Heamatology and Oncology in Brisbane to see a clinical heamatologist that I trust. It cost me $75 a visit (the consultation can last upto an hour).
He co-ordinates my treatment with the Oncology Dept. at Nambour Hospital – they do what he says. I need regular tests (bone marrow biopsies etc.) these are done by QML because they bulk bill – if I had the same tests done at The Mater they would cost me $750.
Florescence in situ hybridisation genetic tests are also done by QML at no cost.
I have never experienced a problem with Nambour Hospital when I have required hospitalisation about every 3-4 months (this may be due to the fact that I have cancer of the immune system and always get a room by myself – because of infection problems).
Would I consider private health insurance? NO. Of course every case is different but in my case the system works well.
Was anyone aware there was a Tony Jones love fest going on at the OO? This is in regard to the new ABC Q+A show on Thursday night……
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23691650-5015662,00.html
This is perhaps the choicest quote…
“He is also the suavest presenter on the box, with a James Spader kind of insouciance. Many women of my acquaintance tell me they admire his polished assurance and dextrous articulateness. As a performer he certainly embodies a sense of the authentic mind, something we rarely see on local TV. ”
bbwwwaaahhhhhhahahahahha!
Chino
the OO and the ABC ? is there a difference? the Tony Jones lovefest has a whiff of incest about it.
Constant Lurker, MayoFeral and Ruawake, My best wishes as well to you and your families. The private versus public health care thing is, I think as Ruawake says, a matter of horses for courses, in terms of actual service delivery. The public domain is where people are trained, and while that has its risks, it’s also where there is most expert supervision by the people who are doing the training. It’s also where there is most accountability, for example, in the Vic. health system, when there is what’s called a sentinel event, there is the most excruciatingly rigorous forensic systemic examination of what went wrong and why – not to blame anyone individually, but to find the systemic problems, and fix them. The recommendations of the outcome of such examinations are binding and the implementation of same must be reported, who’s responsible, by when and so forth.
Chino, my very, very favourite bit from Senor Allballs was the bit you quoted – “It’s our policy and that makes it a good policy and we all support it”. Despite the fact just about everyone who actually understands anything at all about these things, thinks it’s a dud, garbage, rubbish, not worth the oxygen. And, where I might ask, does the MSM get the idea from, that somehow the Opposition were somehow gaining some traction last week with the Budget Reply?
With all due respect and much sympathy, Constant Lurker and wife, I apologise sincerely for any distress I may have caused. (Types 500 times, I must not make unqualifed statements or rash generalisations). There are always exceptions, and clearly you are among them. The issue is about equity and fairness.
In that light. The truth about Abbott’s safety net, September 25, 2004 The Age.
The evidence shows it is the rich who are benefiting most from MedicarePlus, writes Charles Livingstone.
“This is a slightly surreal election campaign for many reasons, but one of the more diverting is the spectacle of the Howard Government trying to outspend the ALP on Medicare.
Enter the Government’s MedicarePlus Safety Net, whereby families or individuals who experience high out-of-pocket costs for doctors’ fees are reimbursed 80 per cent of the fee charged above the normal Medicare benefit.
Tony Abbott says the scheme protects ordinary Australians from high fees, and argues that it’s very popular. Certainly, someone out there likes it. Last week, Treasury advised that the original cost estimates of $440 million for this program over four years had increased by $142 million in the first year alone. And the evidence is that the lion’s share of this funding has gone to support the access of the most affluent members of our society to medical specialists, with likely serious inflationary consequences for the health-care system.
Abbott has told us that about 80 per cent of the safety net expenditure so far has been to reimburse people for specialist costs. Even though bulk-billing has declined among GPs to around two-thirds of consultations, this is way ahead of the bulk-billing rates for specialists, who on average bulk-billed only about 27 per cent of services in the June quarter this year.
If you see a specialist privately, you can expect a hefty up-front payment. This is because specialists are in a powerful position. Their skills are highly valued by people who need them. It’s fair that they be adequately remunerated, and by and large they earn far more than GPs. This is partly why GPs have felt left out in the income stakes and why bulk-billing has declined so markedly in recent years.
Abbott also provided data last week that sets out the level of funding the new safety net has provided on an electorate-by-electorate basis.
Has it been equitably distributed? Thanks to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, we have a reliable locality-based indicator of the relative socioeconomic status of Australians. The ABS uses a range of census data to prepare an index of comparative disadvantage, known as the Socio-Economic Index for Areas, or SEIFA. Governments use SEIFA for all sorts of things – indeed, the Federal Government uses it as the basis for its funding arrangements for private schools – so it’s a reliable measure of how well-off particular local areas are.
If we plot the SEIFA value for each federal electorate against the amount of money spent under the new safety net in each electorate, it becomes blindingly obvious that the most affluent parts of Australia have consumed most of the safety net payments.
The largest aggregate payment up to July 31 under the safety net was $911,828, in the nation’s most affluent electorate, Bradfield in Sydney. The smallest payment ($22,222) was in Australia’s third most disadvantaged electorate, Lingiari in the Northern Territory. Between these two poles, there is an unambiguous and statistically significant relationship between relative advantage and greater access to safety net dollars.
Further, the 25 electorates with the lowest SEIFA scores (the most disadvantaged) have averaged payments so far of about $148,000. The 25 electorates with the highest scores have averaged payments of about $448,000. Rural electorates have received an average of less than $150,000; inner metropolitan electorates, $326,000.
The reasons for this are straightforward. First, specialists are most accessible in urban areas. Second, it’s generally the more affluent who can afford to pay the fees that specialists charge. The less well-off have to queue to see specialist consultants and registrars at hospital clinics. Those with money enough to pay big up-front fees, however, can jump the queue.
The safety net thus provides a perverse incentive for specialists to increase their fees further, safe in the knowledge that the Government will pick up most of the tab. This is indeed inflationary (as exemplified by obstetric out-of-pocket costs, which rose by an average 17 per cent between March and June this year, the first full quarter of the new safety net) and makes it unlikely that the scheme will survive for long in its present form regardless of who wins on October 9.
Which is not to denigrate doctors. What, for example, would happen to the price of panel beating if the government agreed to pick up 80 per cent of the tab for any work the panel beater decided to do on your car?
On the evidence Abbott has so far provided, the safety net is unsustainable, inflationary, inequitable and directs money almost exactly where it is least needed. It may even reduce the supply of specialists working in public hospitals, since they can now expect to make vastly more income from private practice.
It would be pleasant indeed if the ad hoc “bidding war” over health care could be replaced by a serious commitment to much-needed reform of the system overall. But that would probably be too surreal”.
Charles Livingstone is a senior research fellow in the Faculty of Health Sciences at La Trobe University. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/24/1095961853380.html
There is much available and more recent on the subject. For example.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22255850-5001031,00.html
“A study by the Centre for Health economics, Research and Evaluation in 2006 found pregnant women using private obstetric services get back an average of $42 for every medical service from the safety net.
Chronically ill cancer patients get back just $18.65 from the scheme”.
And.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/medi-s28.shtml
http://www.treasurer.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=transcripts/2004/132.htm&pageID=004&min=phc&Year=2004&DocType=2
http://www.maternitycoalition.org.au/media/med140405.htm
My selection purposely excludes articles originating from politicians.
Where were the nightly news services political stories. Neither 9 or 7 covered the Liberals problems tonight.
Christian Kerr adds his words of wisdom to the current discourse on the Liberals current predicament.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/christiankerr/index.php/theaustralian/comments/just_how_big_a_mess_are_the_liberals_in/
Fresh newspoll: 57 – 43. No change. Nelson 12 % ppm.
Rudd down 2% in PPM. 49% say budget good for country. 24% bad.
New thread.