Duke it out here. Those participating in the US election threads are advised that they do so at their own risk.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Presidential election minus 21 weeks
Copyright © 2008 Private Media Pty Ltd, Publishers of Crikey.com.au. All Rights Reserved.
Independent news, blogs and commentary on politics, media and business.
Editor: Jonathan Green.
Publishers: Eric Beecher, Diana Gribble.
Level 7, 22 William St, Melbourne, 3000. Ph: 1800 985 502 Fax: (03) 8623 9975
1,623 Comments
Pages: « 1 … 3 4 [5] 6 7 … 33 » Show All
It must be a full moon tonight, the lunatics are out again!
More news that will frustrate the Obama haters:
He has extended his lead over McCain in the latest Rasmussen poll for the state of Iowa:
OBAMA 45
MCCAIN 38
Remember Iowa was won by Bush in 2004!
Progressive,
The Driveby shooter of PB.
Completely misses all targets.
and GG
FINNS needs 2 bus’s . Not only have Obma’s own words & opinion that I quoted in #196 been run over by the Obama supporters bus & are to be dismised in favour of ‘uninformed ‘ protesters , thats the additional bus FINNS needs.
BUT he now needs a 2nd additional bus for my further barbarian logics. IF john Edwards was so negligent in looking at the Intell & voting for the invasion per the Obama suporters here , then Obama supporters here can NOT support him for VP can they ? In fact they cannn’t support him for AG or any cabinet role at all !!
This bus needs to be big because there were 28 of these negligent Dems Senators voting for the invasion resolution ,so ALL of whom must be now disqualified from any Obama cabimet , diplomatic or statutory position in an Obama administration per the Obama supporters logic here
At this rate of bus run overs , Obama is going to have to call on the barbarian
to fill a cabinet role ?
Mr progressive, have you suffered long from premature ejaculation?
Helo Tabitha
I’m the only barbarian on the site , but even the female Obama supporters seem attracted by my barbarian naughtiness & wickedness and want to mother me & educate me. Abit distracting when i’m trying to barbarianly mount defences of Edwards , Hillary , Kerry & the 28 Senators
Ron,
you may have noticed that I haven’t directly responded to you or any of your comments / postings up to now.
I’ll briefly give you an example as to why i havent and as to why i am unlikely to again.
In #177 as you discuss the Democratic senators in 2002/3 who had access to full intelligence briefing, you say….
“The point being they were the only ones with the info to make a sound judgement.”
Just reflect on that statement for a second.
Imagine yourself a Republican pundit being quoted on The Daily Show as the words go through your head, ok.
Given that authorisation for war passed the Congress, your words and apparently your brand of logic insists that the decision to go to war was inherently sound as it was based on the intelligence briefings only congress and the White House had access to.
Also underpinning your statement is the suggestion that intelligence alone dictated the decisions of the congress as oppossed to….ummmm i don’t know maybe huge political pressure in a climate fuelled by the White House.
If you believe that the decision to go to war was sound, fine. I’ll respect that as your opinion and respectfully disagree vehemently. However, the point is, is that most Americans, & the rest of the world would agree now that the original decision to go to war was not sound and futhermore that the intelligence was not sound.
The public debate that took place at the time of the decision included many extremely forceful and expert arguments against the war – these were shouted down by the White House and its surrogates; that is clear.
Their position, most would argue is now vindicated – the war is unquestionably unpopular amongst Americans.
True that Obama has said that he doesnt know how he would have voted, but that does not mean that it is impossible for people to recognize retrospectively that Obama was right on in the position that he took based on what information he had.
Part of the argument in the lead up to the war was railing against precisely what your statement about sound judgement presumes;
that intelligence is all, that the voice of the White House that compiled that intelligence through cherry picking, hyperbole, speculation and outright deception (an example being of the WH knowing the uranium story was garbage but leaving in the SOTU address) is supreme.
As I said, if you still think that going to war was a sound decision, feel free. I am exceedingly proud to say that I never supported the war in Iraq and that none of the arguments even came close to convinving me. What’s more, I knew and belived in the various arguments against the war and i wish I had never had to see them vindicated – Iraq was wrong then and Republican policies on it continue to stink.
As I have posted many many many times here –
Scott Ritter is vindicated.
Optimist,
But which one of you was it?
Google eggs on!
On today’s polling, Obama has to go for Hilary as VP.
On today’s polling, JohnnyMac has to go for a rustbelter as well – preferably one with some economic cred. Romney kinda fits, maybe also Porter… I’ll take a plunge on Romney (hee hee, if McCain picks him after their previous stoushes its even more of a sell-out than Barack picking Hilary!!)
Oh, and inside word is that Bob Barr has shortlisted Monica Lewinsky and Joh Bjelke-Pietersen, whilst Nader is going for Katherine Harris
EF,
Sad news but Johs been dead awhile. Maybe Steve Bracks?
GG – maybe Wilson Tuckey has dual citizenship? (is he still alive, by the way – that’s a name I haven’t thought of for years and years)
How much would Obama have to pay Ron Paul to run?
I have this almost masochistic desire for a Bob Barr – Mike Gravel ticket with 15% support just to see them in the debates!!
EF,
Still an MHR. 68 years stupind. Gets chucked out of Parliament very often. Apparently being belligerent is the new black.
Optimist
#206
You have misunderstood my 2 essential points. but first i’ll deal with your personal opinion of invasion opposition at the time. The fact you personally were right is fine by me & I do not object to you being proved right. You had values and stuck to them
However i’m talking about US Senators and I’ll name one of the 28 John Edwards. Edwards first Senate responsibility is to protect the National Security of the US & its people.
FIRST John Edwards sees the Inspectors adverse comments Bix the chief UN-MOVIC weapons inspector & Mohamed El Baradei, the IAEA chief inspector for atomic weapons , specifically had cited to the UN in 2002 Reports Iraqi failures to eliminate prohibited chemical and biological arms programs & adamanant the possible existence of chemical and biological arms were a present possible danger
SECOND he sees 000’s of pages & visuals (some ordinary some damaging) & assessments allegedly from the CIA & NSA and allegedly unfalsified whose job is to provide National Security info which mounts a strong cae for invasion , if Sadamm won’t comply
THIRD , he understands Bush/Cheney are Republicans and he knows there is opposition from protestors & others about how existent or dangerous Iraq’s WMD’s are. BUT he is sitting on credible Intell (he then thought credible) & that plus the Inspectors reservations lead him inthe security intersts to vote for the resolution (dspite knowing of protestors & others reservations. He acted honestly & on ‘cedible intell and I think his desion was right. so did 27 other Dems
Four , Obama in 2004 , refer my #196 quote , himself ADMITS he did not know in 2004 how he would have voted in 2002 because as Obama himself sdmits he had no Intell in 2002 (if its good enough for Obama to say that Intell is crucial then its good enough for Edwards etc) On this occasion you , the ALP & protestors were right (only because the Intell was forgeed by Bush/cheny , but Edwards job is to sigicantly rely on Intell in Nationa Security issues and so Senators should. Sorrty Pancho , Edwards should not have instead decided on Mrs howard protesting in Bennelong in ‘oz’
and for the record Optimist , I personally at the THAT time also opposed the invasion. I have been proved wrong on the original Intell Edards etc got , but proved right now by the fortune the Intell was falsified
201
Progressive
You can tell when they hate the message, they take inane shots at the messenger! LOL
But, oh, if they get it back…the outrage!
Also optimist
re-reading your post , i notice a further flaw, not in your then own personal opinion , but in your ignoring of Obama’s own truthful admission in 2004 , refer the #196 post. you simply ignored he made the statement ! I’ll repeat it
Obama in 2004 himself ADMITS he did not know in 2004 how he would have voted in 2002 , because as Obama himself admits he had no Intell in 2002 to be able to make a resolution decision !
Obama is saying the Intell is crucial to make a National Security decision , so that blows Panchos argument of believing the protestors because as Obama himself says they had no intell so they couldn’t make a sound decision
So per Obama’s opinoon , we are indeed back to the only oneswho had the National Security orientated Intell . the 28 Dems. Now THEY including Edwards thought it wa credible. If you guys think he made such a negligent decision on the ACTUAL Intell he got which he thought was authentic , then you MUST argue to disqualify Edwards from VP , aG & any cabinet role plus all of the other 27 Dems
You guys are either embarassed Obama used his 2002 comment sin the 2008 Primarys & disengenuously by passed his 2004 comments. Thats just politics , get over it. or yous are so anti Hillary that you’re annoyed Hillary may be & is inniocent a is Edwards of their 2002 vote , or both. Irrespective , your logic re 2002 even using only Obama’s own 2004 words runs you over
You can not argue both viewpoints (despite yout then own personal opinions)
Oh dear, Presidential election minus 21 weeks, that bad William?
EC, thanks for the codgY 4 stroke Victa moment last night, trooly touched; do let us know when the ‘shower’ isron won’t you? I’m currently knocking up a dwalfy in the back shed; potty howler, tabitha squirt & barbarian galactic models are available; but the butterflies want a loading on the latter! Alas the ESJ model has been confiscated…
Good news on the grass but; the neighborhood caucus on length versus noise came in: Cemon Victa 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBdp_RITz_k
Mowing the lawn or reading Ron?
Progressive, watch out, you may get a ‘Stalk me at your peril’…boogie woogie lol.
FINNS & GG
Before going back to my Charles Dickens , you’ll see reading the posts from mid evening the barbarian has achieved by night end the ultimate irony.
The barbarian by nights end is on Obama’s side & supporting Obama’s comments and the Obama supporters are opposed to Obama’s comments !
And if that was not enough damage , furthermore the Obama supporters have been lead into now disqualifying Edwards and the other 27 Dems from any cabinet role or any position in an Obama administration , seeing Edwards & the other 27 were so negligent in believing the Intell was so damaging & justifiable
And the 3rd irony , unlike these now anti Obama posters & disqualifyers of the 28 from future cabinet roles , is that I opposed the invasion at the time , then when i’ve seen the Inspectors reservations & particularly the Intell Edwards saw I have then support Edwards decision of him being right at that time , and now later I learn the Intell was falsified , so I now later find I was originally right to oppose the invasion in the first place , but still support Edwards then decision and so would appoint him & the other 27 to cabinet roles , so barbarianly the reasoning seems fine & I’m supporting Obama (in 2004) as well. But the others problem is they’re now selectively anti obama comments & the 28 can not be in a future cabinet
Ron at too many places to count:
At least your not at the bottom of the PB heap – without any doubt, GG takes this weeks bottom feeder award.
The sad thing about that is that there is as good a political, analytical brain as any in the country being wasted on an audience of two instead of contributing to the wider PB readership. It runs the risk of being as relevant as ‘Bull butter Boy’ in the last Federal election.
At his best GG is as good a writer, and as sharp as anybody. I have been reading his work for years and for longer than he has been commenting on PB including all he has written this year, seems we all find dry gullies occasionally and GG has found one too.
#184 – ESJ – Your link [Will the Election Be All About Obama?]
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/going_dutch.html
I have already told them, didn’t I? In the last thread:
#623 – The Finnigans Says:
June 5th, 2008 at 7:27 pm – November will be a referendum on Obama on all fronts. The signs are there that Obama has to change positions more often than the Kama Sutra recommended. He has to live up to the expectation of many people. In the end, the US voters might not know him as Arthur or Martha and just stick to the devil that they know.
Obama faces some real obstacles that he has to overcome that none of previous nominees faced:
1. He is black.
2. He is unknown.
3. He has no track records.
4. He comes from left of centre left, in other words, he is liberal or ultra liberal, not a centrist.
5. His closest people, Michelle/Wright/Pfilger, have been perceived as “anti American”.
6. He is perceived as cultural disconnected by the mainstream USA. Exotic is the kind word and Muslim is the harsh word, take your pick.
7. He will not sign Kyoto, despite Pancho’s contortion on Obama’s meaningless pledge.
8. His foundness of kama sutra – The signs are there that Obama has to change positions more often than the Kama Sutra recommended.
If he can overcome all of these and becomes POTUS. He will be then a truly remarkable politician. Have a good day to all.
Friends, scholars and pseph-heads, lend me your minds.
“McGruder, the “Boondocks” creator, says satire appeals to many young people at a time when they’re discovering politics. “That’s your biggest window of opportunity,” says the 34-year-old cartoonist, though “it may not manifest for another 10 to 15 years.”
And once satire takes hold, perhaps its greatest influence is encouraging critical thought. “Good satire goes beyond the specific point it’s trying to make and teaches you how to think critically,” McGruder says. “Even after your favorite cartoonist retires or Colbert wraps it up, you’re not left believing everything they’re telling you.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/11/AR2008061103898.html?nav=rss_politics
Thurs June 12:
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/robertariail;_ylt=AuPBxSHTe3s2lnPgcvo
CjQ3e.sgF
Thurs June 12:
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/tomtoles;_ylt=AlD2miF_FaBclZ1HLRVxQygV2r8F
Re Bludger Veepstakes; Dem (Ted “I’m not a candidte” Strickland), GOPper (Bobby “The Exorcist” Jindal)
Tabitha has resurfaced to join her right wing troll friends LOL
Kirribilli Removals: Abuse is their only weapon, I take it as a compliment!
Progressive @223,
Buy a mirror and take your irony tablet.
For those not wanting to entertain the notion that NC is on the table (ESJ, I’m lookin your way):
“Barack Obama’s promise to make a play for North Carolina — a state that has consistently voted Republican since 1980 — might just have some potential to really pay off, a new poll from Rasmussen suggests.
The numbers: McCain 45%, Obama 43%, within the ±4% margin of error. This is consistent with other recent polls that have shown McCain with only a small lead here.”
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/poll_suggests_obama_is_putting.php
Worth an Intrade punt at roughly 5-1
Pancho: interesting, maybe putting John Edwards on the ticket wouldn’t be a bad idea after all!
McCain is for freedom and love of country
Obama is for tyranny and love of muslims
More words of wisdom from Tabitha LOL
Thats right Progressive, when Tabitha talk – I listen. She just commands that much respect
“so and so suks”-
that’s Irony Grinch?
You lot have completely lost it.
Timbo: Tabitha is the oracle, she knows all, as she proved last November(sniggers to himself).
Electoral-vote.com update:
Michigan moves into the Obama column
He now has a projected 303 electoral college votes, 221 for McCain
Tabitha- who ever you are (I’m going for ESJ) -
keep going sweetie. Every post puts your compatriots further in the basket of irrelevance on this site.
(First and last response to you from me)
Lol Jen, My moneys on ESJ too
Just trawled back -
Three Amigos???
GG -Mo
Finns -Larry
Ron- Curly…
ESJ- Tabitha.
Well you know an election is on the way when Tabitha resurfaces to spread her insightful right-wing messages…
Obama launches website to deal with right wing smears
http://www.fightthesmears.com
Jen , you like so many of your colleagues have contributed zero to PB but thats not surprising seeing most of you come from looney far left
zero Ron? – i reckon sometimes I’m pretty entertaining.
Not quite as amusing as your attempts to explain that Obama’s opposition to the war wasn’t really, and that those that supported it were right even though you admit they were wrong.
That is funny.
I’ve been perusing the US blogs and of course here in Oz. It is amazing to me how much the US election is mimicking the Oz one in terms of blogger opinion and composition.
Like the Howard supporters last year, the McCain (or anti-Obama) supporters are struggling, I mean REALLY struggling, to maintain a coherent argument for why McCain should be elected POTUS. Then, as they back themselves into tight corners and start going round in circles, many end up descending into personal attacks out of frustration, or start spouting ridiculous crap like Tabitha.
Obama supporters on the other hand are FAR more numerous, just as Rudd supporters were last year, and seem to have no problems making a cogent and powerful case for why they think change is required in the US and the world.
The blogging world tends to represent the “thinking” populace, but if this group struggles to give a solid reason for voting for McCain or not voting for Obama, you know that McCain is in trouble, just as Howard was last year.
When I see the likes of GG, ESJ, Finns, Ron, and now our dear friend, Tabitha, twist and weave themselves into all kinds of knots trying to maintain their support of McCain, just as Glen and ESJ did last year with Howard, I know that the extreme right are losing their grip on present-day politics.
I do, however, suspect that a couple of our resident McCain supporters are closet Obama supporters. It’s just that they backed themselves into a corner during the primary season, and can’t bear to show a change of heart now, either due to inner conflict or face-saving. So they’re stuck with McCain. Some of them, like GG, were die hard Rudd supporters last year, and voices against all things neocon, and now they find themselves on the other side barracking for the guy who Howard would most approve of winning. It’s a little sad actually…
Jen , your post again demonstrates why you cann’t contribute. You are unable to understand an argument even on John Edwards , so you resort to a one liner misrepresentation to cover your ignorance of it , as you just did again
I thought it was a pretty good one liner Ron. Just out of interest did you oppose the invasion of Iraq in 2003
Jen , the only diffference between you and Pancho is that you honestly do not understand arguments & resort to ‘barbs’ so contribute nothing to PB , whereas Pancho does unerstand and uses intellectual fraud red herrings or plain bullshit to cover up rather than admit Obama the truth was wrong , as he did on Edwards & as he has previously on Kyoto
Noocat – to be fair to Greeny, I havent seen him (or Finns for that matter) say they back McCain, just that they arent convinced about Obama.
Scepticism is healthy people.
But they sure do know how to rattle cages!
Finns, I don’t agree with this. While Obama’s candidacy forces people to confront racism, the rest of your list of “fronts” are just Republican smears, and already many Americans have shown an ability to see through them.
A majority of Americans already like Obama. This is why he has not suffered in the polls during the “bittergate”, Wright-gate, and other smear attacks. Similar to Rudd last year, they are looking for reasons to LIKE Obama even MORE, not dislike him. Obama will therefore have to do something very freaky in order for him to plummet in their estimation.
I believe this election, perhaps the first for a long time, is about the issues. A lot of Americans are suffering with foreclosures, rising unemployment, an increasing awareness of having a crappy health system, massive amounts of personal and governmental debt, a sense of going in the wrong direction, to name just a few.
Obama has positioned himself very well on these issues AND has a character and oratory style that is attractive to a lot of people.
This coming election is one that McCain and the Republicans are going to have to work VERY hard to win. They not only have to distance themselves from all the problems that have occurred while they have held the White House, they have to provide effective solutions to these problems, somehow reduce Obama’s appeal (a tough job in the current climate), and increase the appeal of an old, sickly-looking McCain.
Possum, you might be right there, but when skepticism begins to look like scraping the bottom of the barrel, I think it’s safe to start reading between the lines.
Anyway, will be interesting to see how it unfolds in the coming months… I met a woman last night (here in Oz) who is so passionate about this election that she has already donated to Obama’s campaign and is flying to the US in November to help out. She thinks the world is at a crucial turning point and feels so deeply about it that she is willing to go to such an expense.
While the cynics will say she is wasting her time and money, she thinks there is something deeply symbolic about this election, and cares too much to stand idly by. There’s some powerful stuff going on this year…
Noocat, I thought you had to be a citizen to make a donation
The face of modern propaganda…..(well, one of the faces).
‘Obama mama’
Fox News in disgrace over racial slur
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/obama-mama/2008/06/13/1213317005990.html
Well, they might be in disgrace with decent human beings, but I am wondering how in disagrace they are with some involved in the Republican attack machine?
It is going to get a lot uglier than this, people.
Regarding states, looking at the betting markets I cannot see North Carolina as a possible pick-up for Obama. However, it is entirely possible that we will see an alteration to the betting markets as news of this poll sinks in. As a caveat to that, there have been some relatively close North Carolina polls in the recent past which have not to my knowledge altered the betting markets in favour of Obama. But they are good numbers for Obama, at any rate.
Looking at other polls, Indiana has corrected, as predicted. No chance for Obama there. He is now ahead in Michigan, although still within margin of error. I want a Virigina poll! Oh, and an Ohio one. Betting markets look good for both Ohio and Michigan. And Obama only needs to win one of those three to win the White House. Still tough, though: the worrying thing is that McCain is still within reach in all three of those key states. He would have to win all three (and not lose North Carolina). But even so, it is not sewn up yet.
Yep Timbo, foreign nationals are not allowed to contribute to campaigns.
Obama is for killing the unborn and weakness
McCain is pro life and strong defence
Pages: « 1 … 3 4 [5] 6 7 … 33 » Show All