Via Peter Brent at Mumble comes the news that Labor’s lead in tomorrow’s Newspoll is up to 59-41 from 57-43 a fortnight ago. More to follow …
UPDATE: The Australian report was apparently up first, which they interestingly seem to be doing a little earlier now.
UPDATE 2: Graphic here.
910 Comments
The Honeymoon is over … no wait … Ummm Dennis and Glenn, please tell me what this means…
Cant wait to see Shameahams spin on this one. SURELY, he cant spin this positively for Nelson and the opposition???
Gus from the previous thread – Peak Brenda
Roflol!
Everyone’s been on the comedy juice tonight!
I’ll throw this into this thread since it’s a bit relevant; putting the Newspoll into context, here’s the ALP TPP for every poll of 2008 from the three majors (Newspoll, Morgan and ACN) with a smoothed non-parametric regression line running through them to show us the likely state of play.
http://possumcomitatus.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/alptppjune16allpolls.jpg
They have to beat Mr Mumble now as well as Lateline. That is why their going earlier.
And if there was every any need for evidnece this poll shows Iguanagate is hardly the subject that is going to have people marching in the street. MP yells at staff in Pub. Big Woop.
The post coital thingummy is definititely on the truck that has no gas! Bring on the fourth beer, says I.
Possum, Can you plot where the honeymoon ended on the graph?
I think Nelson should stay. The time to roll him was when he first announced his surplus busting petrol cut. Too late now, let him stay till the next election at least. Hell make him leader for the next decade.
Lib primary vote at 29% OUCH
Just imagine the polls if Labor got an even break. As it is the full weight of the conservative commentators can’t drag Rudd and Co. down to the gutter which they inhabit.
Poss
i reckon a trade on a 90 day bill would be about right for Peak Brenda at the moment
though i heard a big deposit of Brenda was discovered, it turned out to be hot air
Andrew at 8
Ouch indeed. Is this an all time low for the Libs?
If you were to draw one of those lines that Bryan Palmer was so fond of then the Liberals might actually have a chance in 18 months. But it shows how good his lines were, given that the ALP won the election.
Also I wonder how Mr Palmer is going with Jenny Macklin as his boss?
Disagree with Kina on previous thread that the time is right to give Turnbull a go. This would be good for Labor because Turnbull would likely also be run over by the same Rudd popularity truck. He would be better waiting at least 12 months once some of the shine has come off. But as a Labor supporter, I hope they change now.
It’s the hybrid bump. Let this be a lesson to the Libs not to get cute with the manufacturing sector. Every man/woman working low paid service jobs still longs for the good old days.
IMHO
Peter Brent take a bow.
It’s been six weeks since the budget. Time for that bounce? And what a bounce!
Just imagine if no petrol/Neal crises!
14 – You could very well be right. The $35 Million might not have been needed but it demostrated that the government believes we should still be making stuff here, not just digging up dirt. I didn’t think attacking Industry investment was a wise move.
I like the Piping Shrikes view on Rudd bringing International factors into domestic politics.
It does put things into a perspective that puts less responsibility on govt, like fuel prices, credit crunches, reliance on China/Asia etc but also puts Rudd center stage in his own element. It is also difficult for the Opposition to counter this use of foreign affairs in the domestic context where Rudd is the consummate performer so far/
It may well be effective over time as Rudd Labor educate the public how the international environment puts some things outside the power of govt. Rudd also helped to undermine Howard’s economic credentials by continually referring to the mining boom, implying it to be the true source of our success.
http://thepipingshrike.blogspot.com/
3) International politics is bunk
Obviously politics here is influenced by international factors as much as any other country’s, its just that in Australia it has traditionally not been polite to mention it. Rudd has changed all this. While admitting there is less he can do domestically, Rudd has been keen to be seen as much more pro-active on the international stage.
BTW Glen Milne never responded to my email about his one-term government crap. With this newspoll now there is NO WAY he will respond!!
LMFAO! Do we need any more proof that the MSM(including sadly the ABC) is completely out of touch with the general public? Considering the barrage of negative shit that’s been heaped on Rudd & Co, you’ve got to say 59-41 is a damn fine poll figure!
A great example of why the Libs are trailing badly is today’s parl focus:
) v important ‘evidence’ (read speculation) about purported bad judgement.
Labor – Workplace reform, pacific free trade and use of seasonal workers from pacific nations and Minister off to OPEC meeting to discuss production/ oil prices.
Coalition – Speculation that Rudd is somehow tainted by phoning Neil and telling her to pull her head in.
Big Picture important stuff (read symbolic
Will someone please tell the coalition that substance cuts through more than petty political point scoring.
Andrew: The Poisoned Dwarf probably only replies to emails from Liberals, or those who agree with him! Good on ya though for sending it!
The opposition’s overplaying of the Neal thing shows how bad they are at opposition. Nelson may well have won brownie points ?women voters if he had of supported Rudd’s view that she needs help. But I guess a desparate man clutches at straws
The reason I want Turnbull to have a go now is that I doubt that he will do well and with him failing they may reach their bottom point sooner and then do so real reformation.
If he is successful then he will have some power to make changes, either way Nelson is damaging the brand.
Progressive, the astounding thing is that the media commentators never learn. Despite having egg on their faces so many times about Rudd’s honeymoon and all his so-called crises, they still dish up the same crap.
Which shows how important sites like this are in keeping our sanity in the face of the MSM barrage. See, the voters agree with US!!!
And, how increasingly irrelevant does INSIDERS look now? They wonder why Rudd won’t appear on that crapfest masquerading as a serious political show?
All the other polls show a slight movement to the Libs, Newpoll shows a slight move in the opposite direction.
I think this is an out-lier. Not that it matters much. All the polls show the honeymoon to be very far from over, and only marginal movements one way or the other.
Andrew: good point! Yes sir, thank goodness for this forum, and others like it!
Kina, I take your point that if Turnbull bombed now, the Libs might do some much needed soul searching, but why would you want them to do that and improve, and do you really think they are capable of it??
how do you say “what a pisser” in chinese? -:)
Kina at 24
With the way they are going, the ‘Brand’ will go the same way as fire brands on cattle and the animal rights groups will step in and seek that it be banned to avoid further inhumane treatment.
netvegetable, the importance of this poll it is counteracts the narrative that many in the MSM were trying to create ie. opposition improving, Rudd in trouble.
Dave55 at 6 – I’d love to except my stats programs dont have the Wishful Thinking 3.0 plugin.
Where is Glen these days? I bet he’d come on here and argue Newspoll did their survey in a safe Labor electorate LOL
32 Oh I agree! Like I said in the other thread: it’s going to fun watching Dennis trying to spin this one. But I’ve got a feeling that he will, as will most of the MSM.
Possum at 34
LOL – not worth the purchase price (how much is the OO now anyway to buy in hard copy?).
I have been a Liberal voter in the past, until after Howard’s first term. Howard’s era has seemingly wrecked the Liberal party which we will all suffer for iy. Workchoices was sign post at the extreme end of their empire.
A competent Opposition that can develop good policy and engage in solid debate helps us get the best policies and performance out of government it also gives us something to vote for should the govt be useless or corrupt. Thus I really want the Liberal party to smash into rock bottom so they can rebuild from scratch or at least if they cant do that at least become a little more moderate.
Can’t wait to see Brenda’s face tomorrow when he drags his sorry arse into QT
I wouldn’t be surprised is this is some sort of a turning point where the Opposition have had their fun along with the MSM and people have decided enough of this crap let the government get on with the job.
It is very destabilising for people and business to have every move by the Federal Government parodied and thrown into uncertainty. Life is tough enough without this never ending circus providing passive resistance to every decision taken.
just told the better half the numbers 41-59
“is that Brendas days left as leader”
roflol
Sorry to interrupt the gleefest for a moment, but did someone say the budget bills had been passed by the Senate holus bolus? Any details?
I was too busy laughing, sorry, considering the Newspoll result, when I heard, for it to sink in.
With the exception of Michelle Grattan, Peter Hartcher and George Meglogenis(yes, I’ve spelt his name incorrectly), the MSM are a bunch of hacks. Were so many of them degraded by the Howard era that they know no other way other than to cowtow to the Liberal Party?
Fulvio,
What’s your take on the proposed leadership Challenge by Anthony Fels against Sniffwell ?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/16/2276556.htm
I’m glad to see some political capital still evident, because there’s going to be some real hard stuff to negotiate with the population in the near future. Let’s hope Rudd can cut through the pap, or we’re all cactus.
As I said before, Rudd and Swan just need to play fuel prices straight, not pretend they can fix it, and manage inflation. People can see that Nelson has no credible solution, even if they don’t like the situation. The tax cuts will kick in after July 1 and people will notice that so the relief is in sight. If Rudd and Swan can show they can handle inflation without caving in to every interest group that complains they will actually come our of this looking a stronger government IMO.
For a bit more context with the Newspoll – here’s the ALP and Coalition primary votes from every poll of 2008 with a line of best fit running through them (again, a non-parametric Loess regression)
http://possumcomitatus.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/alpprimallpollsjune16.jpg
http://possumcomitatus.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/coalprimallpollsjune16.jpg
The Greens and others are powering on, that’s where the differential between the ALP primary and ALP TPP preferred is coming from.
From the last article I linked to, someone got their Liberal MP’s and former ACCC Chairpersons mixed up
44 & 47:
It’s no surpise that “the Greens… are powering on”, with the way the two major parties are acting, especially in WA.
Nothing better symbolises the total moral bankruptcy than the Chair Sniffer from WA!
So, Poss, perhaps a bit of a look at the demographic that’s moving between the ALP and the Greens?
Poss
I know sampling methods tend to overstate (city based) inor parties and understate the Nationals, but at what point can we say that clearly the Greens have more support than teh Nationals? Surely their long term slide is terminal?
I’d love to Harry – but I’d need a quarterly Newspoll breakdown for that as I dont trust the ACN breakdowns in isolation.
Will this poll prompt Nelson to ask questions other than about petrol prices in parliament tomorrow? Maybe he could ask the Prime Minister what we are going to do in 50 years when nearly all the world’s oil has been used.
The Greens have had more support than the Nats for a fairly long time – the problem for the Greens is that their support is spread thinly across nearly every seat, whereas the Nats support is clustered into a handful of seats.
Votes without seats are just votes. (with the obligatory two dollars something or other attached – what was it for the 07 election anyone?)
Hence the Greens never being paid much attention to.
The Greens will be in the spotlight come July and will be held accountable for the decicions they make in the senate. If they try flexing their muscles by blocking bills or having inquires into everything so the government is unable to govern propery their support may not continue to power on.
Is there any new polling on Gippsland? Any private polling been leaked lately?
Thanks Poss, bugger. It would have been interesting.
looks as though Honda are making the effort to help out Rudd on the fuel cost / climate change problem.
{Japanese manufacturer Honda has started the first commercial production of a hydrogen-powered car.
The medium-sized four seater is called the FCX Clarity and has a top speed of 160 kilometres per hour. }
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/16/2276538.htm
Frank, the most interesting moment on ABC news tonight, and a cathartic experience for Aunty, was the question put by their new, attractive newsreader, Karina somebody, to Peter Kennedy. I am not quoting her word for word but the gist of what she asked was ” Peter Kennedy, you have been a political reporter in Western Australia for over thirty years. In your experience have you ever come across a more disfunctional opposition?”.
Beautiful question, and one the likes of which no one in the ABC has had the coyones to ask in WA for a long time. The strangling grip of head office is surely being released.
To address your question,I think the local Libs have belatedly, after a long delusional belief that eight years of Labor was a temporary abberation, come to the realisation that bluster, bulldust and a compliant and favourable press is not enough. They need policies which go beyond a redneck response to the latest daily garbage spewed out in the West or on 6PR, and they need a leader, not a muppet.
Rob Johnston spitting the dummy, and Fels plaintive cry of “give us a leader, any leader instead of the caricature we have now” is symptomatic of this new found and desperate desire for political relevance and credibility.
Too little, too late for this election though…
Yep, it was an amazing question, and no doubt Karina Kavalia (sp) will be summoned to Kim Jordan’s office in the morning and will be “counselled”
Mind you, this Newsreader is an improvement on the last few they have had, and she actually has 2 brain cells to rub together.
yes the new ABC perth newsreader is one hot chick. She worked for the BBC, her brother is in oxford… you get the drift…
and as for the polling
hehaheahehaheahehaeh
KEVIN Rudd’s honeymoon with Australian voters is not yet over,…
This honeymoon has lasted longer than some marriages.
Just me
Perhaps the Liberals next chance is the Seven Year Itch? Looks like two terms.
When is a honeymoon not a honeymoon? It is silly to call more than 12 months of high ratings a honeymoon as though it were a popularity founded on novelty. Obviously there is more than novelty going on here, people must be seeing Rudd Labor as what they want most because he represents what they believe and want.
The MSM both before and after the election have tried to smear and undermine Rudd and Labor and yet they have maintained high ratings though now unsurprisingly beginning to fade. Just how high would these have been had the MSM been simply even handed on the issues and their representation of the govt position.
They have tried just about every trick to smear Rudd’s lofty position, even trying to praise Gillard as Rudd’s superior.
Why not, instead of talking about honeymoons, talk about what it is people prefer about Rudd and Labor? You would think the Liberal’s answers will be found in asking these questions – not the automatic gain say of anything Labor says.
I’ve just added an extended update to my struggling Gippsland by-election post, featuring YouTube clips galore.
Image link
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll-17jun.pdf
Kina at #24:
Far be it for me to carry the can for Brenda, but I don’t think he alone is to blame for damaging the Liberal brand. The damage was done by all of them, collectively, during their last term.
What a set of lousy buggers to cut pay and conditions during the longest uninterrupted boom in Australia’s history.
A blatant, unmandated attack on people’s pay packets is not the sort of thing you would expect people to forget (or forgive) for a long time. How can they live this down?
So I ascribe most of the blame to Howard, Andrews, Hockey, Costello, Andrews, and, yes, Nelson, for digging the hole into which they were dumped on 24 November.
Of course Nelson’s approach since then hasn’t helped either LOL.
I know I’ll face derision in saying this, but the LNP primary number in this poll seems to be out of whack, I think this poll is a bit wobbly.
Which is easier to believe:
Four primary points of L-NP vote has shifted to ALP and the ALP has lost four other primary points to the Greens/others, all in the last fortnight
OR
This fortnight’s polling was out of whack?
Maybe Nelson, Pyne, Turnbull, Truss, Downer et al are out of whack?
Squig, maybe LAST Newspoll was out of whack. There was some movement then.
Mr Squiggle,
Another way of looking at it is the trends projected in Possum’s site (links at 3 and 47 above). There has been a slight trend to the LNP on 2PP since the start of the year, a trend away from Labor on primaries, and a trend (perhaps now stalled) to LNP on primaries.
What does this mean? My guess would be that it means nothing more than some fairly rusted-on LNP voters, who’d never actually vote against the LNP in an election, returning to the fold after flirting with Rudd during the 3-4 months’ polling that immediately followed the election. In other words, the Libs are still miles behind, and would lose quite a few seats in an election held now, but reports of their impending extinction were premature.
No real surprise there.
For this mild trend to turn into something significant that actually means the next election is a contest, I’d imagine two things have to happen:
- a recession here in Australia (heaven forbid)
- a change in Liberal leader (surely only a matter of time).
The good thing about this poll is that we may have heard the last of the 5c reduction in petrol excise and the opposition to ‘Fuelwatch’
According to Michelle Grattan on Radio National this morning:
1. This poll is a disappointing one for “Mr 13%”
2. Rudd has hung Belinda Neal out to dry!
Newspoll may be an outlier, but where is the evidence that the public is as disenchanted with Rudd as the MSM would like us to think?
Hanging Belinda Neal out to dry won’t lose Rudd any votes. Let’s be honest she does need help. What do they expect him to do, protect her through thick and thin? How would the MSM spin it if Rudd actually had her thrown out of the Labor Party as the Libs seem to want instead of giving her a chance to make amends? Wouldn’t that really be hanging her out to dry?
NetVegetable@27 and Mr Squiggle@70 are spot on.
I thought Shanahan did a good job with his analysis of Newspoll this time. Of course there was absolutely nothing he could hang his conservative hat on this time but at least he was honest about it.
Give us a break! He was wriggling!
agreed Rx, nelson has copped too much of the blame and howard too little. remember the 2PPs were the same for the coalition in the last 12 months of government
squiggle, i hope the opposition continues to make excuses and be in denial as much as you. Yes, the polls are out of whack. Of Course. Dont change anything
I think by now even libertarian economists realise that the five cent fuel tax stunt is a waste of time that will merely bugger the budget. Again, I think that things will actually improve further for Labor once the tax cuts kick in, both because they will offer relief, and because it is a promise kept. The recent comments about finding a long term solution to fuel are the right message; there is no short term fix.
agree Andrew, Nelson is the scapegoat for the crisis in the Liberal party. But tough. Some Howard hack is probably next.
Please to see Shameaham giving a realistic account. Even he must have some standards!!
Yes this poll does seem to be a bit out of tune with the latest trend. You would have expected 57 or 56 to be consistent. Then again you wont know until a few more polls. Right or wrong it does make Nelson’s life hard and boosts the stakes of Rudd Labor to that high level for a little while longer.
Long way to go you and lots of things for Labor to do as well.
We will be waiting to see the qualities of Xenophon and if he is going to be a grandstanding thorn for Labor or an ally.
Re: Neal. Howard would have defended to the hilt. Rudd at least has acknowledged a problem and put in place counselling. thats real leadership.
after all, she is a backbencher of no importance and he cant sack her, she has to quit. Please to hear interviewer ask Hockey on ABC radio something like “arent Australian voters concerned about more important matters” Yes, indeed
Kina, you voted LIBERAL in the past?? My respect for you has just vanished!!!!
Another obvious question – how does the Gippsland result look on this poll? Again, I don’t think Labor needs to win Gippsland to do well; any further swing since the election would be a good outcome.
Rudd would I think have as a matter of course defend a team member as most leaders would, especially when the matter is trivial. That he didn’t do the natural thing is no doubt as some have suggested part of a bigger issue.
I always liked Howard’s communication skills before he became PM – that same technique I came to despise not much later. Then again at that time I hardly paid any attention to politics.
The one statement that really made me hate that man was when he said ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’ or something like that. Coupling that with his governments failure to attack the racist undertone of Paul Hanson really made me a permanent opponent of the LNP. The looking at his first speech in Parliament told me the man has never changed his spots.
Rudd/Gillard want to shaft the husband. He is in the way of their IR reforms.
So Rudd should back her how? Say everything is fine and dandy? Or do what he has done and given her a chance to work her way through the media frenzy. The only thing the media can do now is complain about Rudd’s handling of the matter not Neal herself. That would be seen as attacking a person while they’re down, and clearly she is. That’s not to say she is a bad person, in fact probably a good person in a bad place mentally at the moment. She needs help.
What, shaft JDB by shafting his wife? Yeah, that makes sense (sarcasm a plenty).
Socrates, if I’m correct, Labor would be almost winning Gippsland if this poll was reflected in the byelection? Personally I doubt they will win the seat, but any swing against the Nats would be a good result.
Gary: she got preselection for Robertson because the Labor Party hardheads thought she had no chance in hell of winning, it was done to mollify her Labor powerbroker husband. What to do with Belinda? Assuming the N.S.W police investigation clears her and Della Bosca, I’d make her work very hard as a local MP to avoid disendorsement. After all, the lady won a previous Liberal seat with a 7% margin, she obviously has some campaigning skills.
Because by making Neal a problem it makes an issue out of what happens in the Iguana club and makes it intolerable for DB. C’mon you don’t think Gillard would have been worried about this because of etiquette. She is an operator, she does not waste her time on trivialities!
Gillard spear-headed this attack on Neal. Why do people always underestimate her? She is one of the sharpest operators in the ALP.
Piping you could be right. Obviously you have more knowledge of the inside workings of the ALP than I do. We’ll just have to see what happens won’t we?
GB you and I and have discussed this here before. But I just don’t get what we are disagreeing about. I think Gillard sorted out Neal for a political purpose, to carry out her IR agenda. You don’t, is that right?
#86
The repentant sinner is more welcome in my house than the person whose soul is without stain.
I’ve said it before Piping I just think you’re reading too much into it. We’ll see. I think we are really on the same side here, it’s just the motive behind it all I have doubts about but, who knows, you could be right. It will all come out in the wash.
Fair enough.
I think Gillard handled the Belinda Neal stuff beautifully. And I don’t think there is any merit in ’sacking’ Neal – strong censure is about all that can be done, and it has.
It will be interesting to see how the new Senate plays out – should make for interesting machinations.
It would seem that the tacticians have decided that the Government should consistently guide answers to questions to the high ground. The tactic avoids descending into what Rudd yesterday described as sheap tabloid politics.
Judging from Newspoll it works.
Is that “sheep” of “cheap” BK? Either way you’re right.
Gary 104 – should be “cheap”. But you are right!
Gotta love Piers, he bites every time.
From me to our friend -
Piers,
“When every other journalist was panting after Rudd I believe I said he was a fraud.”
I guess not even your inane ramblings can dent Rudd’s “honeymoon”, given today’s Newspoll.
I think we really know who the fraud is and he works for the Daily Terror.
Have a happy day Piers,
Gary Bruce
His reply -
I am having a happy day, happier for your foolishness.
I reckon that, despite his bravado, Pies has had a bad day every day since Kev took over as leader of the ALP.
Dreams of a glorious thousand-year Howardreich shattered.
More of the same, as has been the case since January last year.
It’s been interesting watching the Libs this year. For mine, they have the air of the ALP 1996-2001 (though a more extreme version). Labor, along with many on the Left (including me), just couldn’t appreciate that Howard actually won elections – I mean we could see right through him, and surely it was only a matter of time before the public did also. Witness the rationalisations of JWH’s first few election wins: 1996, he won just because he wasn’t Keating; 1998, he lost the popular vote; 2001, he relied on racism to scare people into voting for him. It wasn’t until after 2004 when the Left started to appreciate that Howard, however inexplicably, was actually NOT hated out there in Voterland, and in fact, most people quite liked and respected him. It was only after Labor and the Left accepted this that they were able to defeat him.
Now look at the Libs today. Every Tory I know (not many, I’ll grant you, but a few) and hear obviously feels that “Rudd is a phony”, and it is only a matter of time until the public figures that out – hence the ridiculous stunts and point-scoring. All it will take is just the right stunt and the right time and voters will see Rudd for the phony he is. In thinking this, the Libs are making the same error as the ALP did – that of underestimating their opponent. Until they get over this conceit – that putting Labor in office was a mistake that should be rectified at the first possible opportunity – they will remain an irrelevance.
108
Hugo
Interesting idea. Certainly the opposition need to stop playing the man and start going in for the hard ball i.e. develop and sell some serious policies that can win over the electorate. The problem for them is that going in for the hard ball takes far more courage than sniping their opponents off the ball. They haven’t won the hard ball for many years now and I don’t think they have the courage to do so. Sniping is all they know and the public will not accept it.
Hugo,
So true. It’s the natural fault of new oppositions. We were a good government, the people will see how good we were eventually, when we prove that all the things we were saying about the new guy are true.
The Libs have to realise that people like Rudd. When you keep attacking someone that they like, they identify more strongly with him. The attacks are so counter-productive.
The story with Howard was similar. Despised as he was (and shall remain) by Labor partisans, most voters while they didn’t want him to be their best mate, they respected him and they were far from hating him. Labor really didn’t make any ground until they stopped using “Howard Hater” rhetoric to try and score points with the general public.
I think it’s a mistake made by all pollies and the political media as well. They can’t help but assume that everyone out there in voterland is paying as much attention to the daily cut and thrust as they are. It is why they seize on perceived gaffes and why the media is always talking about crises for one side or the other.
The simple truth is that the people who decide elections in this country aren’t paying much attention for the next 2 and a half years.
abc Online News site main story
photo of Neal with big headline
“Opposition to pursue Neal over ‘demon’ remarks”
I’ll probably be called a knucklehead again but bugger me if that’s the top newstory of the day I’ll switch to One Nation (joking)
If Libs had gained ground and Nelson improved PPM in newspoll that would have been the headline story of course!
Hugo @ 108 said:
And also until they are reconciled to the fact that the Australian public actually wanted to see some spending on infrastructure, health,education, childcare…etc,something that the previous govt under John Howard didn’t do to the satisfaction of the voting public.
How much of the increase in Labor figures is due to a lot of people realising that the Fibs are going to make them keep paying the Medicare levy? Nice tax cut removed by the Fibs? Stupid politics
Pursuing a personal attack on an obscure person who has no government position, the public knows nothing about and cares even less is quite pointless. Rudd has already dealt with it in the public eye with anger management advice.
The issue just doesn’t get into the mind of people. The Opposition’s attack seems to be about someone who argued with someone else and someone who said some rude words to someone else. Who is gonna care really?
It just helps Labor replace her with someone else come the next election.
Also the Opposition in making a major issue over a minor thing gives the impression they a small minded party. Shaking their fists in the crowd but actually not on the ground playing.
They have nothing else?
It is VERY difficult for an opposition to make significant gains in its popularity after being tossed out of government less than a year ago.
I suspect, however, that the opposition realize this but are trying to throw any mud, hoping to at least take the shine off the government so that when a real issue comes along, people will have less faith in them. Parts of the MSM are also playing into this game, especially from News Ltd.
It’s basically a progression from the game played with all the smear campaigns after Rudd took over Labor’s leadership back in Dec. 2006.
But it’s a LOSING game. And there are two simple reasons:
1) It assumes people are actively listening. They’re not.
2) It assumes people are dumb enough not to see the tactics when they are paying attention. They aren’t as dumb as the opposition and MSM think and they now look for the tactic, especially after 11 years of Howard where policy and partisan politics were merged more than ever before and where the MSM hailed Howard’s every move as a political “masterstroke”.
In 2008, people are politically jaded. The more a politician or party is seen to be trying to score political points or indulging in gutter level politics, the more likely it is to backfire on them and therefore help the other side.
The sooner the coalition and the MSM realise this, the sooner we have a real competition on our hands. But as long as they keep making the above assumptions, Labor will be in power for a LONG time, because Labor seem to understand today’s politics a LOT better, which is why they are in power everywhere with no signs of losing any time soon. The coalition is WAY out of touch, not just in terms of policy, but in terms of politics.
Noocat,
I agree that it is very difficult for Oppositions to make inroads against the incumbent Government and especially a new one. To me Opposition is being the turnkey with a thousand keys only one of which opens the magic door called “Government”.
So they have to try each and every key individually, hoping it will be the one that clicks in the lock and lets them in. Now a smart Opposition might try and sort the keys before they try them in order to stop wasting time. (develop policy)Unfortunately, Brendan and the Libs haven’t twigged so we see this daily procession of another dud key being tried. Seems the next trick is to find another turnkey. Obviously, the Brendan one hasn’t got the strngth in his wrists.
For those interested, the key that got Labor through the door was Workchoices. There is some speculation about whether Howard acyually unlocked the door for them.
This will infuriate the opposition. What they have tried to defend more than anything else since the election is their reputation (in their own minds) that they were brilliant economic managers. The RBA has given them a serious kick to the goolies:
http://business.theage.com.au/economy-under-control-rba-20080617-2rxy.html
Economy under control: RBA
quote…
In the minutes from the June meeting, the RBA said the surplus, as a ratio of GDP, was higher than expected and should not add to the demand forces in the Australian economy.
The Australian dollar dropped from 94.34 US cents just before the minutes were released, to 94.10 US cents.
For homeowners, the interest rate cycle could be nearing an end as the RBA emphasised the current interest rate of 7.25% could be cooling the economy by the degree needed to harness inflation.
The budget stance is a turnaround from recent years, when the Coalition budgets were questioned by the bank’s governors for creating fresh stimulus to the economy via generous tax cuts….
end quote
OK Mr Allbull – put that in your pipe and smoke it. Question time should be fun this arvo.
The Libs are like a jilted lover who just can’t accept that it’s over.
Flowers don’t work. Banners saying “I’ll always love you” on tollway overpasses don’t work. Reminders of how good the sex was – once upon a time – are a positive turn-off. Comparisons between the jilted lover and the new lover fail miserably. Reminders of happy weekends away in the Hunter Valley or the Gold Coast fall on deaf ears. Remonstrations that “I won’t bash you ever again” or “I’ll change, I really will!” or (even worse) “I’m the only man who understands you,” sink like lead balloons.
The only thing to do, at least in matters of the heart, is move on and get another lover who’s not awake up to your faults, or who even likes them. Only problem is that there ARE no other lovers. The Libs have only got the same voters to woo, and try to re-woo.
To get the old girlfriend back again you have to reform yourself, give up the booze, stop thinking you’re always right, case and desist with the nostalgic flashbacks, stop swearing on a stack of bibles you’d do it all over again the same way, admit your failings and stop calling her a deranged idiot for dropping you in the first place. Oh yeah, and stop slagging off the new boyfriend for being an intellectual nob who isn’t a loudmouth bully witha lot of rich mates, like you are. That’s why she likes him, you drongo.
Then, and only then, will you have a chance of winning her back.
Noocat wrote (#114): “In 2008, people are politically jaded. The more a politician or party is seen to be trying to score political points or indulging in gutter level politics, the more likely it is to backfire on them and therefore help the other side.”
Yes, this is spot-on. This was Keating’s mistake, and I suspect if the Opposition chooses Costello as leader, it might even get worse for them. Sure, Costello is articulate and quick on his feet, and unlike Nelson he actually knows what he stands for; but his performances on the floor of Parliament as Treasurer were cutting and sometimes a little nasty. People have had enough. The Rudd government has opted for the iron-fist-in-the-velvet-glove approach, and it seems to be working (so far).
115
Greensborough Growler
But GG some of the keys open doors that lead to nowhere except a fall into hot oil and the like. Those opposition idiots burst through each door and rush forward without properly evaluatiing if it’s safe to proceed.
I hope they keep it up as it’s a laugh a minute.
A disturbing trait of Turnbull is that if he doesn’t like the message he will attempt denigrate the messenger – i.e. the RBA and the Head of Treasury and the head of ACCC. The people they appointed.
It is not a good thing to undermine these institutions, the ones independent of government and in which we want the community to have confidence.
The Telegraph? or Hun? ran some very personal front page attacks on the RBA governor in order to help the LNP along.
vera, the ABC headlines are no longer a surprise. i have accepted that its good for them to attack Labor so Nelson stays and the Libs dont change their policies or come up with new ones
by the way, didnt neal refer to sophie mirabella’s baby as a demon? is there a problem with that??
96
The Piping Shrike Says:
Gillard spear-headed this attack on Neal. Why do people always underestimate her? She is one of the sharpest operators in the ALP.
Agree. Anybody who underestimates Gillard’s political and people skills (take note, Tony Abbott,) does so at their own peril. She is well on track to becoming Australia’s first female PM in her own right.
115
GG, a great analogy! Spot on.
It’s funny how yesterday, with the ACN poll, we were being told Nelson was making an impact with his 5c of BS and today, because of Newspoll, we’re being told he has failed to take advantage of the petrol issue. Which is it? The MSM are like a wind vane, they move which ever way the wind is blowing.
Steve K, youre right, the opposition have no set strategy. They seem to overreact and get hysterical over everything. They are obviously not following Rudd’s opposition tactic which was to choose your battles, and come up some key alternative policies
“I suspect if the Opposition chooses Costello as leader, it might even get worse for them.”
It would be a disaster for them, not just because of Costello’s offensive personal style but because he is so utterly identified with WorkChoices.
121
Andrew Says:
by the way, didnt neal refer to sophie mirabella’s baby as a demon? is there a problem with that??
Neal’s comments were both political idiocy (I mean, giving a free kick to Sophie Mirabella, how dumb is that?), and unethical. She deserves everything she gets over this one, including disendorsment. Rudd and Gillard are handling this well so far.
117
BB, in that case, the Libs have a helluva lot of reforming to do, which of course they won’t do as long as the MSM play into their games and continue giving them false hope of actually getting somewhere.
The fuel price issue is case study on Nelson and Co.
It is obvious to all that international forces control the price and all expect prices to keep increasing. We are all resigned to a high cost of fuel. They must be aware that government has little it can do over fuel prices and, that playing with excise just ruins revenue meaning they will either have to increase taxes or cut services.
What an opportunity for them this must be. On this issue they can release a Energy Security policy, affordable Mass Transport infrastructure policy, Fuel efficiency car policy, Alternate Energy policy, Emergency relief policy and whatever else you can think of related to oil and energy.
So what did we get? Cut excise by 5c whereupon the price of fuel went up another 15c.
Do you think I might have upset Kerry – Anne?
Kerry-Anne,
I guess you’re going to have reconsider your thoughts about Rudd’s honeymoon being over, at this point in tme, given today’s Newspoll.
Regards,
Gary Bruce
I never said his honeymoon was over, Gary. Not on the Inisders or on/in any other column, program, radio interview or news story. If you’re going to criticise, at the very least get your facts straight.
As for your previous email, I am not part of some pack. You have no knowledge of my 25 years of media reporting. You obviously don’t read anything I write in The Sun-Herald, or say on Sky or in radio commentary. If you knew anybody in politics or the media – which you clearly don’t – you would get a different view of my reputation than the one you clearly hold, after seeing me for a few minutes on one program.
Kindly go and bug someone else.
Kerry-Anne Walsh
Just Me,
Juvenile and puerile are the words that come to mind. Also, what has Mrrabella’s child done to be cast as a demon?
However, Mirrabella has form. She accused those on her own side as being terrorists for not supporting tougher Terrorist Laws and she is not above deriding others personally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdxoor0DyUE
does anyone know why the OO on line has no mention of the poll except for Shanahans sort of grudging blog, or a link to the graph, if it wasnt for this site and a few other knowledgable ones we would have no way of knowing all of the poll’s findings— are they trying to hide something ??????
GG 131
No argument there.
That is what I meant by political idiocy. In attacking Mirabella over her impending motherhood it gave her a rare opportunity to take the high moral ground and come out looking like good, which does take some doing in Mirabella’s case, given her odious track record. Mirabella has plenty of things she could be fairly attacked over, picking her unborn and her fitness as a mother was well and truly crossing the tactical and ethical line.
When you add in the Iguana nonsense, well, if I was a senior Labor politician I would not want the sort of political liability Neal is in my party either. She has largely blown her political career before it even really got started.
“Dwarf star no longer shines in pub” is the Breaking News headline. Can’t be talking about the Poisoned Dwarf, that’s where he shines brightest and often.
Landeryou has posted this update on the Mcewen situation.
http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/60016#
Swan is wiping the floor of parlaiment with Bishop and Allbull. He’s got his question time performance sorted out and has become a very good performer. I can now see why the party had the confidence in him to deliver the goods.
Steve K: 117
Happened to listen to ABC Midday Report whilst on the road. Their reportage of the RBA report had an added comment implying that whilst the RBA gave it a thumbs up it was only half-hearted thumbs up.
BB: 118
You beaut!
Hugo at 108 – love your analysis, but I wish you would keep it to yourself. The Libs might learn something from you! I’m sad to give them such a free kick.
How’s this for chutzpah?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2277332.htm?section=justin
Is that the same type of address Howard gave to the party saying they will be annihilated. At the time it was a blatant device to affect the voter and, its only purpose.
Mr Rudd has probably broken the record as most approved of party leader for the longest time and Nelson reckons that ‘voters are no longer starry-eyed about Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’.
Well that can only mean that Rudd’s figures are so high because people have seen ‘through’ him and worked out that he is exactly what they want.
Hockey is at it again in QT. He has moved a motion of dissent againt the spreaker. How many more times will the Libs spit the dummy?
GG, Nelson really has lost the plot. I guess he’ll say and do anything to divert attention from his standing in the polls.
While Hockey fumes the government members walk out. Too funny for words. Ol’ Joe is about to suffer a fizzer.
Can I point out that Nelson is killing himself off. He isn’t asking nearly enough questions in Question Time. I can remember when Labor was in the doldrums after the 1998 election that Beazley would ask every second opposition question. Sometimes he would ask three questions in a row to various ministers.
On another matter, Howard’s department was directly involved in the Haneef affair. Which suggests Howard instructed Andrews to cancel the Visa, which he said he didn’t do.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23878434-5005962,00.html
Intersting news from the Haneef CAAT inquiry. Appears honest John might have been involved up to his elbows. Who’d a thunk?
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23878434-5005961,00.html
Shows On,
snap!
The Haneef Affair was an attempt at a “terrorist dog whistling” exercise by the Howard government to try and get themselves re-elected. They’ve successfully used the tactic before, but this time it went horribly right, and for Dr Haneef was cleared.
Home from work today and watched QT. I particularly liked the cuts to the Smirk, who, his smirking days behind him, was so obviously, totally and thoroughly miserable. Took my mind right off feeling crook. It must be a special kind of hell for him to be taunted on his so-called economic credentials from the gov’t. benches. The gov’t. are clearly having a whale of a time.
That was a big problem during his campaign – people were suspicious that everything might be trick. The Intervention people saw as an election ploy, the same with Haneef. Howard’s reputation came back to make him impotent.
G.G. at 140. More like completely delusional, and if their performance in QT was anything to go by, completely ineffective.
I hope the PM doesn’t find a wet patch on his chair. It is only during divisions that Nelson will get to sit in the PMs chair. Did anyone notice if Allbull and Nelson had a pushing match to see who’d get to sit there?
Looks like Kev has wiped the chair with his hanky.
Constant Lurker (139) – yes, good point, though I haven’t seen so many Tories perusing these pages lately, so I probably got away with it!
However, it’s not tactics that will cost the Libs future elections, but policy, and I think that they have yet to fully grasp what an albatross that WorkChoices will be for them over the next few elections.
The Libs beat Labor over the head with “18% interest rates” for years – they probably won the 2004 election on this theme, even when these rates were actually in place in 1989. That’s 15 years after the fact, which means that WCs could well be toxic for the Right until well into the 2020s.
True. But for me, the sad thing is that the whole affair damaged our security agencies, and made them less capable of doing their job of protecting the country.
Obviously the possibility that that could occur didn’t bother Andrews or Howard.
Kina @ 89-
The one statement that really made me hate that man was when he said ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’ or something like that. Coupling that with his governments failure to attack the racist undertone of Paul Hanson really made me a permanent opponent of the LNP.
That’s when the Bastard began loosing me too and then solidified my disgust by starting an illegal war. He makes me wish for an afterlife,. One in which cretins get their just deserts.
And now for something completely different –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQJ9Xp0xxU&eurl=http://www.crikey.com.au/video.html
There is no afterlife MF but there is the here and now and Little Johnny will be suffering each and everyday. The idol he had built in honour of his life (i.e. his reputation as a man of the people and the great economic manager) is being smashed into tiny pieces. He is a man without principle who acted against his fellow Australians by the participation in an illegal war which you rightly point out and his manic hatred of working people. The only value working people served in his universe was that every three years they had an opportunity to vote. Workchoices was mean, nasty legislation that will haunt his party for a generation and beyond.
MayoFeral and Kina @ 89
The one statement that really made me hate that man was when he said ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’ or something like that. Coupling that with his governments failure to attack the racist undertone of Paul Hanson really made me a permanent opponent of the LNP.
Even though I am a Labor supporter I agree with what Howard said back then,
What do you want?
All these forigners comming here who dont asimilate, we will become the minority in this country if we are not careful because of some minorites who want to change our culural identity and way of life will will become out numbered by them soon and will be like a minority in our OWN COIUNTRY
159
Good grief
160 Local – yeah
Bushfire Bill at #118
Please make sure you save the texts of your comments such as that one.
One day I’m going to request “The Collected Thoughts of Bushfire Bill” and I reckon I won’t be the only person who will want them.
160,161
You are very naive
DO u not know whats happening in France, Belgium the Untied Kingdom and those countries
The future generation of Australians will pay the price for your naivity
Can I say that I am so chuffed we are back to watching Monday’s Lateline to hear what are the latest Newspoll figures.
After doing this all last year I thought that I wouldn’t have to do this until next year.
But here we are writing reams of comment on Bludger again, with the same people and the same arguments….I’ve missed it really.
My hunch is that Rudd 2008 is a sort of a repeat of Howard 1996. He also had a number of ministers resigning in the first term because of breaches of Ministerial conduct codes etc.
I feel Nelson is being given a much better treatment that Beazley ever did as first term opposition leader. But then again is my bias. Can’t wait for those narky comments from Fran on Radio National Breakfast again. “Rudd dropped two percentage points, this is disaster for Labor!” Isn’t the ALP policy to wipe the ABC board clean and make it independent a la BBC? I thought that the Janet Albrechtsen/Keith Windschuttle influence would go away once Howard was gone. But it hangs around like those leaky and sneaky farts I make when I hide in the study.
Granted Rudd has come in when the world economy with inflation pressures, US economy in recession and petrol prices reaching record highs is not in as good shape when Howard was in. He certainly was a lucky bastard.
I think Rudd hasn’t helped with his school masterish comments about making the public service work harder etc.
Labor will lose some seats next election. But it would require a disaster of Withlamesque proportions to lose government.
OK I’ll bite.
Steveo (159) – the issue wasn’t so much about immigration control, it was that our elected government was blatantly pandering to xenophobia to divide the opposition (not only Labor) to win an election. That’s not leadership, that’s pure cynicism. And for what? Immigration is at record highs, and it grew in a big way post-2001 (not that I personally have any problem with that).
So even if you think that Howard was operating under some cloak of principle way back then, subsequent evidence would suggest that he took people who think the same as you for absolute fools.
Um hello, all Governments determine who comes here and who doesn’t. It is called administering the migration act!
Of course the Howard government couldn’t even do that right. They administered a system that locked up an Australian citizen in immigration detention, and deported another to another country! But don’t worry about that, it only cost tax payers $6.5 million of compensation pay outs, including paying Viviane Solon $4.5 million, and all her medical expenses for the rest of her life.
So Howard’s base political claim designed to appeal to racist sentiment goes down as nothing more than another broken promise.
Hugo
Yes I quess you have a point in regards that Howard did have high imigration levels
I just wish both Labor and Liberal would stop letting these people in to our country when no one wants them here
They hate our culture, way of life, they only mix with each other, why cant we only allow people who can speak in English in here
I mean what use is it to let people here who cant even talk?
No one wants them here yet we the Australian people dont have a choice because its policy of both the political parties
Apperantly not Steveo, I had no idea Belgium was becoming untied
Ooooo lookout the dreaded them are invading – hide your wallets and lock up your daughters.
The vast majority of Australians are immigrants, I think the last census showed over 22% are born overseas.
But its OK as long as they are not “Them”.
ShowsOn
I wasnt refering to those individual cases that you mentioned
I didnt even think about them when I was making the post yes he was wrong with Corneilla or whatever her name was
But thats a different issue all together and I wasnt talking about that
Actually Howard was only stating what was fact when he said something like ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’.
We do control our own immigration program and we also have international obligations that we adhere to. The detention centers, Tampa and so forth were simply devices for running a xenophobic ticket.
The format of the statement I believe he stole from Pauline Hanson but I don’t recall exactly how she used it.
My problem with Howard is that he was using the statement and environment of the time to evoke racist fear in people. Appealing to the lowest demoninator. Prepared to demonise and punish harmless people for the sake of political gain.
As it turned out Howard I believe was increasing immigration whilst making it appear he was ‘protecting’ Australia from being over-run by others not like us.
The Howard government rightly moved to the highest levels in the history of the federation. They will only be surpassed by the coming years. Of course they didn’t talk much about that. Instead they made people think they had a more restrictive immigration programme when they didn’t. It fooled a few suckers though…
You mean like me? Both my parents are migrants thank you very much.
Thanks very much. One of my parents couldn’t speak English before she came here. She can speak, read, and write english now. Does that mean she is allowed to stay? Oh, she also happens to be an Australian citizen. Does that mean she can stay, or should she be deported like Vivian Solon?
Get over yourself. We are a nation of migrants. Even the Aboriginals probably came here from Asia via Africa. The First Fleet came from the U.K., the 1950s boom was created by European migration. You can’t talk about Australian history without talking about people from other parts of the world coming over here in search of a better life.
It is not a different issue. Our immigration system in the 1980s was cleaned out of all the bribes and sleaze and pay offs. Robert Ray fixed it so people got to come here based on merit. But the Howard government put the sleaze back in, while suckers thought they actually knew what they were doing on immigration matters. The cases of Cornelia Rau and Vivian Solon demonstrate they had no idea what they were doing.
We wont see the politics of fear and racism again for a long time, not until the LNP are back in power maybe.
steveo at 159. I don’t know where you live, however, I live and work in the Western suburbs of Melbourne, where we have people from all over the world who rub along together quite well. A culture is not a static, homogenous thing. It changes over time in response to many influences. My immediate work group has Skips, Irish, New Zealanders, Indians, Iraquis, Vietnamese, Sri Lankans, second generation Italians and Greeks. You have no idea how stimulating it is to be able to work with such an amazing range of people, with such extraordinary stories of themselves, their families, their countries and cultures. We have fantastic lunches once a month, when we’ll all cook food from the different cuisines, tell jokes and generally have a pretty good time together. Acclimatisation to a host culture takes time and happens at different rates depending on a range of factors, certainly one of which is how open the host culture is to getting to know and understand those new to the country. BTW, what do you think the Aborigines might think about the British and Irish readiness to assimilate?
Steveo, let’s get this straight. The only people who can talk are the ones who speak English? The others are mute?
Harry 174
Is there a vacancy where you work? I need a job and your workplace sounds fun.
ShowsOn
No your mother doesnt need to go back to where she come from
But look times change and NO ONE today should come here unless they can speak in English
Your mother probably came here with all good intentions to learn English back in the day
But alot of people comming here today possably from different ethnic groups that you mother is from have no intention what so ever to asimilate or learn English they only want to speak in their own forign languages and only stick with their own ethnic/cultural groups this creates tenisons in society, look at the Cronulla riots in 05 when us Australian finally fought back years of harasment and intimidation to show we are not scared of these bastards who hate us for nothing
Do you see the point I am trying to make?
apres
YES as far as I am concerned people who live here who CAN NOT speak in ENGLISH
and I am not refering to people who are bilingual)
are MUTE absolutly 100 percent
The language in this country in ENGLISH so if they cant speak in ENGLISH they CAN NOT TALK
Steveo, given that our economy is based on growth and without growth we go down the gurgler, how do you propose we continue growing with our meagre population without immigration? We have a skills shortage NOW. Employers are struggling to find employees NOW. What’s the answer?
Steveo
Often the first generation of an ethnic people tend to stick together and learn little English. However, their kids assimilate pretty well. But if we treat them as second class then even the kids will stay in their ghettos.
A lot of the first generation Italians and Greeks still don’t speak English too well, but they made a bloody big contribution to Australia.
I can’t even believe we are debating this!
neophyte, depends on what your qualifications are. steveo, I think the Cronulla riots were as much about the resentment that grows from marginalisation as anything else, that and xenophobic reactions being stirred up by the likes of shock jocks such as Alan Jones. There were fears something similar might happen in Melbourne, and some attempts by the local shock jock equivalents of Jones, but equally, there were people such as Jon Faine (local ABC) who took a lead in opening up publicly aired forums which fostered discussion and exploration of both difference and sameness. There was also a lot of leadership from different Muslims from different backgrounds as well as others that actively pulled the teeth of any set up of them and us.
Jovial Monk, neither can I.
steveo
you are a waste of space
i am 4+ gen white anglo
but nob jockey you dont deserve membership of the human race
diversity gives a society its elan,its special moments
like harry i work ina mini UN and love it
ps were you oneof the inbreds who supported pauline, maybe you should read this
http://www.101usesforajohnhoward.com/2006/12/20/59-pauline-hanson/
we true AUSTRALIANS ALL will never let rascism rule politics again!!!!!
Gary Bruce
Look I am not against imigration at all I think we should have big imigration levels but only people who can speak English and if they are from a country who culture is different from ours are willing to leave that culture behind and adapt to Australian culture
I dont want to bring people in here from certain Religous groups whos way of life and way of thinking is so different from ours and their culture doesnt meld in with ours, they want their women hidden behind rags I mean dont exept that in our country, thats not Australian culture or Australian values,
I mean why risk putting our country at risk with bringing religious groups here that are so full of hate when we can just let other people in who we know will asimilate like British, Europeans, Some Asians etc
tjis is our country we have to stop being politically corrct if the Majority of Australians dont want muslim imigartion here then then thats what should happen
What do you mean “us Australians”? Us Australians includes people born here, but also people born overseas like my parents who came here with their parents because they thought their families would have a better chance at a good life here. Us Australians means people who took out citizenship today.
I have absolutely no sympathy for people on either side of the Cronulla riots. They are all thugs who reverted to violence because they didn’t have the intellectual capacity to argue a political position using words and ideas. The ‘Australians’ were abusing the flag in service of racists sentiment. The Lebanese who carried out revenge attacks against people and property are just as bad, but no worse.
Moreover, the ‘Australians’ in the Cronulla riots were rioting against people who spoke English. So that ruins your argument that this is about language skills.
I agree with you that migrants should have basic English skills so that they can integrate into the community, and have a good chance of getting stable employment. Guess what! The Government provides free English lessons to all migrants. That is part of administering the migration act.
You are making a mistake that provided migrants have english skills everything will be OK for them. Migrating to another country is an inherent disruption that some migrants never fully recover from.
What? They can’t even talk to each other in their first langage? You’re being absurd. You are simplifying this issue to the point of ridiculousness.
All I can hope for is that the “Not one of us” argument is relegated to the garbage bin of history.
I have lived in 19 different countries and I can assure Steveo that the vast majority of people are exactly the same – they want the same things – they want a peaceful life and to see their kids prosper.
Howard increased immigration levels to record numbers at the same time he slashed funding for english language courses for migrants.
gusface
I am not racist
I dont care what race someone is
I only care that they asimilate into our country
I hate Multiculturalism
These people should adapt to our culture as this is our county
All u left wingers/bleeding heart whinge at people like me for trying to protect our Australian values
DO u know what would would happen in some of those Arab countries if we went over there and not asimilatied into their way of life, we wouldnt even have the option of being Christian
But I never hear u lefties whinge and complain about that, i wonder why?
How is this different to what we currently do? You are arguing against nothing.
Hang on a second. Our constitution has a freedom of religion clause. Do you honestly think the Government should be able to force people to follow particular religions? That doesn’t sound particularly democratic.
Oh, so now you write what you really mean. You are against Muslims coming here! Well at least you have the guts to say it.
I’ve got a better idea. We shouldn’t judge people based on their religion, but on the merits of their characters.
Steveo, Do you know anything about the history of migration to Australia? The Chinese on the goldfields in Victoria, the Pacific Islanders captured to work on the canefields in Queensland, the Sikhs to work the farms of the middle NSW coast, the displaced persons from WW2, the Afghanis to provide camel trains across the desert in the NT, the Vietnamese from the Vietnam War? BTW, many Aboriginal people in remote communities don’t speak English.
What I’m suggesting is that migration is rather a complex area, and we also have obligations under international treaties in relation to refugees. That some migrants become marginalised, resentful and angry, whether in Sydney or France, might prompt some questioning of why this should be the case, rather than simply accepting “they” don’t like “us”, whoever, “us” are.
Oooooo I see its the nasty Rag Heads Steveo does not like.
steveo
what is an “australian”‘ value
um re “arab” countries which ones? if such a thing exists anyway!
Hey Steveo be careful who you call a left winger. You don’t have to be aleft winger to disagree with you. Hell, the Libs disagree with your view.
ShowsOn
What do you mean “us Australians”? Us Australians includes people born here, but also people born overseas like my parents
well thats a good point u raise because thats anothing thing that pisses me off these people who were born here dont want to be considered to be
AUSTRLIAN
they want to be LEBS OR LEBANESE
and that upsets me
I mean why is it that people who arent of british or Irish decent usually dont call themselves Australian?
you talk to a Leb he will always call himself a Leb never Australian,
I mean you will never hear an Anglo Australian who was born here say Im British or I am Irish
I dont know why I have always wondered this can someone explain to me why this is the case?
gusface
Saudi arabia would be an example
You are simplifying the issue too much.
People can identify as being from more than one country. My mum has been here most of her life, but if you asked her she would say she was BOTH Greek and Australian. You can be more than one thing because people are COMPLICATED, and have multiple allegiances. It doesn’t make them any less Australian if that bothers you.
The problem is you have killed your argument. First you say this is about English skills, then you say it is about religious affiliation. Now you say it is about a state of mind, about what national allegiance people think they have.
You don’t have an argument left, because you’ve bogged yourself down with racism and religious hatred.
Yes. My Dad. He was born in England, but lived here for about 45 years before becoming an Australian citizen. He only did that so he could get a job in the public service.
Personally I thing that was absurd, and would’ve thought that after that much time he would’ve done it on his own accord, but he obviously didn’t think it was that important.
Incidentally, he was able to vote in elections because he was a British subject. I would be more than happy to take that right away, in my opinion only Australian citizens should have the right to vote.
But I guess it is OK with you for him to stay in Australia because he can speak English, and isn’t a Muslim.
SHOWSON
How is this different to what we currently do? You are arguing against nothing.
**Well then why are there so many people who cant speak in English allowed to come here ? and they dont leave their culture behind they bring islam or what ever it may be here with them
Hang on a second. Our constitution has a freedom of religion clause. Do you honestly think the Government should be able to force people to follow particular religions? That doesn’t sound particularly democratic.
**I dont care about that If the majority of Australians don’t want them here then thats what should happen
I never said the government should force particular religion onto anyone, when did I say that? I am athiest but I acept this is a Christian country
Well it is democratic I can tell you because the MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS DO NOT WANT MUSLIMS HERE
Oh, so now you write what you really mean. You are against Muslims coming here! Well at least you have the guts to say it.
I’ve got a better idea. We shouldn’t judge people based on their religion, but on the merits of their characters.
**Yes I know not all muslims arent bad
But its like saying this, Ill make a comparison
*there is one brand of eggs that u know on average there will be 1 bad egg out of 12
*and another brand of eggs where u know there will be 5 or 6 bad eggs out of the 12
What brand of eggs will you buy ?
Or which bad eggs are you going to let into the country Does that make it a bit easier for u to understand?
Steveo Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Well Steveo I hate people who hate multiculturalism, and i bet you don’t care.
What do you like? Red necks driving Utes perhaps.
Steveo, I’d give it up if I were you. You’ve well and truly painted yourself into a corner. You did not reply to my question about whether you know anything about the history of migration in Australia, so I’ll assume you don’t, and suggest you would be doing yourself a favour if you actually made an effort to learn some.
Harry @ 174
I’ve lived in this wonderful country for 45 years (from the UK) and became a citizen ages ago but I’ve never heard of “skips”. Where do they come from?
btw it does sound a great place to work!
Cheers.
Yes. My Dad. He was born in England, but lived here for about 45 years before becoming an Australian citizen. He only did that so he could get a job in the public service.
**Did u actually read what I said WHO WAS BORN HERE, when u said your dad was born in ENgland u moron
People can identify as being from more than one country. My mum has been here most of her life, but if you asked her she would say she was BOTH Greek and Australian. You can be more than one thing because people are COMPLICATED
**And I was saying that in regards to people who were born in Australia and lived their whole lives here who refere to themselves as another nationality I think its wrong
The problem is you have killed your argument. First you say this is about English skills, then you say it is about religious affiliation. Now you say it is about a state of mind, about what national allegiance people think they have.
**And no I actually do have an opinion on a whole range of things you idiot it was never about one single aspect of the conversation
Steveo
i repeat-what is an “australian value”
regarding Al Saud and its artificial structure (created by the west incidentally) unfortunately an amount of repression does happen,but as you well know Nth Korea is the most abusive,but still religion goes on (as one m luther put it so succintly-in the heart)
If we are the Pinnacle of civilisation,surely the very strength of our structures and laws will,in effect, allow those peoples from less enlightened regimes to actively embrace and reinforce these institutions,perhaps even enlightening those peoples from whence they once had come from.
dont be scared of the boogeyman steveo,it only holds you back from learning and growing
I think this sums up steveo’s point leadership
Steveo @ 159 -
MayoFeral and Kina @ 89
All these forigners comming here who dont asimilate,
You mean like you or your ancestors? Or do you live as the Aboriginal tribe in your area lives (assuming your ‘foreigner’ ancestors didn’t kill them off) and abide by their culture and religious beliefs?
we will become the minority in this country if we are not careful because of some minorites who want to change our culural identity and way of life will will become out numbered by them soon and will be like a minority in our OWN COIUNTRY
Same answer as per above.
However, what I object to is imprisoning and torturing genuine refugees for base political purposes. The proof that most were is that they eventually accepted as such even by the Howard government.
I also object to imprisoning and torturing a few, mostly genuine, refugees while perhaps 200,000, mostly non genuine, true illegal immigrants came here unchallenged by air on tourist visas. On Immigration’s own figures at around the time of Tampa there were at least 60,000 mainly European and North American illegal immigrants living here. At the time most commentators with expertise in this area believed the numbers were at least 200,000.
I further object to my tax dollars being wasted on the travesty that was the detention centres and, particularly, the Pacific ’solution’!
Oh, and for the record, I arrived here on a boat, too. One chartered by the Menzies government. And one I might add that was so rickety that it promptly sank not long afterwards – shades of the Sieve X!
There were undoubtedly many people then who had the same opinion of me and my family as you have about more recent arrivals. They may even have been right.
Harry “Snapper” Organs
You moron the imigration I am talking about now is about massive immigration of a huge scale I am not going to talk about 200 Chinaman who migrated here during the goldrush, it is irrelavant to what I am talking about now u fool
MayoFeral
Look dont give me this shit about how ohh we never asmilated into the Aboriginals culture
So why should people comming here today asimilate blah blah blah
that argument just proves how moronic u are
Stevo @ 196
“the MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS DO NOT WANT MUSLIMS HERE”
Stevo, this sort of unsubstantiated commentary about something as sensitive (and important) as race relations in Australia won’t wash here I’m afraid. PB contributors tend to be a little more cerebral than the hot-tempered monkeys on tabloid chat forums.
So here’s your chance: where’s your evidence?
Allan back at 199. Skips are Skippys=identify as Australians, from Skippy the Kangaroo T.V. program.
gusface
Australian culture is speaking in the National language
“Australian English”
It is women not wearing head gear
It is not intimidating people for no reason
i thought it was cause we lived in skips (bins)
steveo: Dat zegt u dat zelfs als u uit een regime komt dat u voor godsdienstige of politieke geloven moord, als u don’ t spreekt Engelse don’ t denkt zelfs na hier komend. U moet aan mijn Soedanese buur over hoe spreken dankbaar sommige mensen bij wordt gegeven een kans bij vrijheid zijn. !
Sondeo, that is swine Dutch!
‘don’t'??
Everyone’s favourite Chair Sniffer Buswell survived another leadership spill today. No numbers, so no idea of how close it was.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/buswell-survives-leadership-spill-20080617-2rwq.html
Stevo,
when you stated that “the MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS DO NOT WANT MUSLIMS HERE”, were you referring to a specific quantitative survey of any kind? If yes, can you please provide details?
Jovial Monk: more like the online translator version of:
steveo:So you are saying that even if you come from a regime that is murdering you for religious or political beliefs,if you don’t speak english don’t even consider coming here. You need to speak to my Sudanese neighbour about how grateful some people are at being given a chance at freedom.
sondeo Says
I can do that too mate
kjdf sek fo;eijf eiohf ewouhpweriogj[wwkef ;oresu k srfhow hdiqewh rfj crtk w skjfliurt bhkw guevoi nrgne c sghbn sdgiwlufb erhlujb cnwakulefe rsgvjbgli uw5ueue hlguh elugh elhgliuebejerk.gb vnweahgfekljn
In Dutch Scrabble, are J’s and K’s worth 1?
Steveo at 204, I think when you descend into name calling, you demonstrate your inability to mount and sustain an argument. I was not referring to the specific Chinese on the goldfields events, but to the historical complexity of migration of peoples from different parts of the world for different reasons, sometimes their own and sometimes propelled by the needs of the country, both for ill and good reasons. The compelling current national need for migration is the skills shortage. Do you have an alternative solution to the skills shortage?
If you treat people with fear and suspicion, how do you think they will react to you? If you treat people openly and with a willingness to learn about them, and for them to get to know you, how do you think they will react?
Steveo @ 193 -
well thats a good point u raise because thats anothing thing that pisses me off these people who were born here dont want to be considered to be
AUSTRLIAN
they want to be LEBS OR LEBANESE
and that upsets me
I mean why is it that people who arent of british or Irish decent usually dont call themselves Australian?
My best friend is a Brit who refuses to take out Australian citizenship, even on a dual citizenship basis, and classes himself as British even though he’s been here for upwards of 50 years. IME, he isn’t the only one.
No this is closer to steves point of view
Inner Westie
I am just trying to find it now if i can
It was a ninemsn poll a while back
and it was extremely high the amount of Australian that wanted to stop muslim imigration I dont know if i will be able to find it by ill do my best
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
This is actually on topic and not taking the bait from some pretend troll.
From News.com:
That’s funny.
“He did not refer specifically to today’s Newspoll “. I bet he didn’t.
“Wear thin”? “No longer starry-eyed”?
Good God, if today’s Newspoll is wearing thin, I’d hate to see a “surge of popularity”.
Brendan has been caught out reading the prepared statement he thought he’d be reading after being told by Dennis and the rest how wonderful he was; what a political genius he was.
Psssst! Brendan! It’s in the other pocket.Who does this bloke think he’s fooling? The Hard-Heads in the Lib right? The voters? Himself?
Poor tool.
MayoFeral Says
I am talking about people who are born breed in Australia not in Britian or Lebanon
@ 215
Well, there’s our evidence. The Young Liberals have released their latest lab test. He’s a bit bristly and quick to insult (and claims, oddly, to be an atheist), but with time and a little more tweaking he’ll be just right for the job. (Or she, or it.)
You little beauty!
Actually steveo has raised a really good point
the pig ignorant,unherded,unfed,unfeted,unfettered,dare i say it,unloved are rutting around seeking some form of relevance
oh the pain the pain
where is our hero
johnny?
bwaaa i want johnny
208
Steveo Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
It is women not wearing head gear
Steveo, If you think a ninemsn poll will produce anything other than howls of derisive laughter from around here, you’re in for a surprise.
Steveoeooeoeo,
Look at this, mate:
http://www.nma.gov.au/collections/collection_interactives/harvest_of_endurance_html_version/explore_the_scroll/australian_gold_rush/
Please try to build an educated argument, no matter how difficult you may find the task.
{It is women not wearing head gear }
What, like the women & girls I used to see in church wearing veils, like the nuns, both RC & Anglican who used to wear head gear, like the nurses & matrons who used to & in some cases, still do, wear head gear.
And there are many more examples like the brides you see every saturday at most churches in the country etc.
Grow up mate and get a life. This post is about the latest Newspoll, I thought. not an avenue for your juvenile rantings.
Steveo,
don’t bother looking for the ninemsm poll. Along with all quality uncontrolled online surveys, it’s not worth the binary code its written on.
That you’re prepared to quote this stuff as fact is simply bizarre. But having said that, if 70% of respondents claimed Mark Latham’s man boobs were unpleasant to think about whilst eating dim sims, I’d take that as gospel.
charles @ 219
yep
Why is everyone in here Left wing for?
This aint fair nor ballanced
Your all bleeding hearts determined to see Australia go to the gutter hole just like France, Netherlands, UK, Belgium etc
Barcelona Tonight doing another hatchet job on the Feds, this time re childcare.
Maybe the reason for the Australian public’s obstinate refusal to stop liking Kevin Rudd is that they don’t like the media telling them what to do? Especially if doing so involves facilitating Brendan Nelson looking smug?
Why label anyone here as any type of wing.? There are those on the right of politics……Petro Georgiou comes to mind…..that agree with the majority on this forum.
Link:http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Insider-outsider/2005/02/15/1108230007168.html
It’s not about being a type. Just a decent human.
Although I must admit Barcelona Tonight did a lovely hatchet job on Howard’s IR policy last year so I shouldn’t complain.
Steveo, ‘please explain’ how France, (the) Netherlands, (the) UK, Belgium, ‘etc’ (what are these etc. countries?) are ‘go to the gutter hole’? I live in the UK and have a very pleasant life.
I am Australian, but my family is about 6th generation Irish. What do they do, they call themselves Irish. They get misty-eyed over ‘Danny Boy’, they dislike the Royal family.
The first time I went to Ireland and said I was Irish, people laughed at me and told me I wasn’t….. The whole country is made up of immigrants Steveo and everyone assimilates to a certain level. You are just trying to find excuses to be express your dislike for Muslims ( and I assume any other group of immigrants who “don’t look like us”).
Bushy @ 221, A bit of a laugh was had earlier on in the day, with opinion divided between whether it was chutzpah or a delusional state precipitated by the stress of going backwards, despite how helpful the maaaates in the MSM have been, and sitting in the gutter at 3am with the sad and neglected, and the pain, the paaaain of feeling for those who have to fork out good money to top up the Beemer to run the kids down to the holiday house. Personally, I prefer the second scenario. Earlier, the story was of Brendon (I’m a doctor) giving a pep talk to the troops. I was home and watched QT, and all I can say is they look so thoroughly demoralised, it cheered me up no end.
You’d think the bureaucrats would learn: four beers a “binge” indeed! A perfectly good noun with damning connatations is now rendered harmless. Didn’t they know that Australian irony would destroy their narrow-lipped intent? The once pejorative, savagely deft “binge” will now become a colloquialism for “having a few”. Nett effect: worsen the behaviour you were trying to moderate. Stone the crows!
Harry @ 207
Thanks for that. You learn something new everyday. But I’ve just realised I’m old enough to actually remember (and even enjoyed) that programme. Bugger.
Tt Tt Tt (or whatever it was Skippy used to say!)
Tony Abbott on Sky Nooze Agenda said that polls were important and that if the next couple did not show an improvement then Brenda is in deep poo (my interpretation).
So I reckon Brenda has 4-6 weeks left, but this maybe makes his reign as opposition leader longer than Lord Dolly of Mayo.
Allan @ 207. Perhaps, the LNP could see if Skippy was available to explain Australian values to Steveo and Brendon (I’m a doctor)?
Steve-o at #230
Seriously, I thought from all your previous comments comments you were a lefty…..
Neither side of politics is prepared to address your questions, it gets too ugly too quickly
Whilst the climate continues to warm each day, whilst some people struggle to find a job or pay their rent each day or week, whilst Robert Mugabe allegedly commits crimes against his people and stuffs up his country, Sophie Mirabella and the Liberal Party cry crocodile tears over Belinda Neal, fair dinkum.
The big issues… Yep the big issues… What a joke… What a stupid world we live in.
And Sophie could you please tell us what you are doing for your electorate? You dill.
Mr Squiggle, I’ve been trying, for some considerable time this afternoon, to invite Steveo to actually think about what he’s saying, back it up with evidence, and have ignored being called a moron and a fool, and continued to try and engage around what I could make out to be a concern about migration, to no avail. I think if you actually read through what has been posted, you would see others have done the same, more or less.
Do you have some amazing insight about migration that would address Steveo’s concerns, if you can actually work out what they are?
The world MSM along with the likes of Bush and Howard and Co helped demonise the word Muslim and to equate it with violence, danger, ter*r@sm. So now days for many it is a pavlov dog response to the word Muslim.
Bush and Howard and their campaign for the profits of defence companies encouraged this process because it helped legitimise their jobs and it was something thy could play on to keep power.
Every time there was a b*mbing the MSM would say it was from not just any old murderous ter*r@sts but Muslim ones – thus giving them the notoriety and glory they were seeking. Bush and extremists lived in a symbiotic arrangement needing each other to prosper.
However there are 200 million odd muslims just to the north who only want to get on with life like everyone else.
It is self fullfiling prophecy in a way – if we get Muslim immigrants then treat them like a dangerous enemy with no respect and so forth we create an environment that can breed resentment.
Multi-culturalism is good because it fully accepts differences in cultural backgrounds – it doesn’t mean non-assimilation into society. Just look at the Chinese wherever they are they maintain traditions, their own etiquettes and beliefs but are successful in society. People of different back grounds, especially new arrivals can feel welcomed and accepted as legitimate. The worst thing is to marginalise, ostracise people for their differences – it only creates problems.
Why did the Fibs fail to report Neale to the priveledge committee? Surely this would be the prudent course of action?
But maybe they don’t want Sophies “man hater” comments to become public?
Mr Squiggle
No i am right wing, yourself?
Who cares ruawake, politics is about policies and issues not trivia and dribble.
If they want to engage in this stuff they should go to a kindergarten.
But the Govt. has referred it. Ha Ha. Look out Soph.
Another front bencher resigns from Buswells Shadow Cabinet…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2277572.htm?section=justin
Are you still here, Steveo? I thought we were all too abhorrent for you?
settle Harry
ps
Harry
thanks for the heads up earlier in the year
Steve-o
In your comment at 159 above, you say you are a Labor voter. (See? I actually checked before writing this)
I presume you are claiming to support right wing of the ALP?
Well going forward we will have record levels of net immigration under Rudd, so lap it up Mr Right wing labor voter
Has anybody heard anything about McEwen
Salaam alekum everybody.
Snapper,
I’m really enjoying the sight of everyone try to answer Steve’s points. its been fun
My own views aren’t crystalised yet, and I don’t have a short, sharp statement on what Steve-o is getting at, so I can’t help you there
But I do have a very strong sense that Australia struggles to have a proper conversation on the issues of high immigration and the value of multi-culturalism.
Its just too easily turned into an argument about racism to make the risk of discussing it worthwhile. Raise a question on this topic and you are howled down as any one (or all) of the following:
1) racist
2) little-minded
3) igorant of history (well, we all came from somewhere didn;t we?)
4) scared of the big wide world
5) an under educated blue collar ALP voter that used to vote Howard, or finally
6) a middle class exclusivist who also voted for Howard
Pretty much got us covered really
gusface @ 251. Sigh, What sort of sado-masochistic psychopathology is it, do you suppose? If there were enough of them, I’d put up a submission for a new category in the DSM. Hang on, they’ re already there. See RWDB.
Also, what did I give a heads up earlier on? A clue will do.
Hmm, another former TV Journo running for WA Parliament – for the Nationals.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2276645.htm
well if you watch insight tonight on SBS it is about bringing in foreign workers to help the skills shortage
Mr. S. Don’t think anyone’s got a handle on what Steveo’s on about, which was sort of the point, although to me, he seems to be reacting from fear.
People fear what they don’t understand, the unfamiliar, which is at least one of the reasons the question of migration gets people stirred up. It was why I commented that the experience of other people’s can also be a genuinely wonderful experience, whether they’re of a different culture or religious belief system (though I’m not a believer in invisible friends, myself).
I think it’s quite possible to have a conversation about migration in Australia without being howled down, if you have something relevant and informed to say. That Steveo is unable to mount and sustain a credible argument to support his position is evident. I simply don’t know why he hangs around if he finds us so objectionable.
Kina,
One of the questions going around my head is; what if the skills shortage is driven by the overall level of demand for goods and services that result from the already high levels of net immigration.
I just found Stevo’s true identity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqi0DwNLJdM
Steveo 1 – Pollbludgers 0
YHBT HAND
This is a fascinating comment from Shanna’s blog. I re-read it a number of times and have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the point is that the poster is trying to get across.
{I think everyone is getting a bit worked up over one poll… All the changes are well-within the margin of error. This is exactly how Labor won last year – their supporters whipped up hysteria over every 1% change in the polls. It’s important to remember that of the 25-odd Newspolls last year 24 of them said the Labor victory would be larger than it was…}
Maybe someone else can decipher it for me?
One person can provide service for more than one person so an increase service in capacity exceeds the additional demand it creates. It is only demand for resources that cannot be adequately increased (eg housing) that creates a problem.
But the economists here can give the explanation.
oops – I meant:
YHBT YHL HAND
Steveo, I wouldn’t pay much attention to most of this crew. It turned into a Rudd wankfest after November 24. Apparently the Dear leader can do no wrong.
I tend to treat this site as I would a local zoo. Front up once in a while, observe with wry amusement the simple creatures go about their lives, then go home.
A-C @ 267
What’s so simple about creatures at the zoo? You anthropomorphist! (It’s the monkey impersonators who eat their bananas unpeeled I find amusing.)
Personally I couldn’t giva a rats whether people are Muslim, Jew or Catholic (I’m a non practicing catholic). It’s all a gigantic load of crap.
There are good and bad people in all nationalities. What about those animals in underbelly who shot others in cold blood in front of children ??? Non muslim apparently.
There is one thing for certain – a pack of convicts COULD NEVER EVER have made Australia the place it is today economically.
Where would we be with the simple mentality of Steveo and A-C ??? Racist Clowns.
The WA Liberals must be in a terrible state. Buswell has survived, even after all the humiliating press he has brought to the party. A frontbencher today resigned, Buswell last week sacked another. How low must the talent stocks be there?
A fine old pickle they are in, and in Australia’s most “Liberal” state too.
Rx, I thought Victoria was the Libs “jewel in the crown”. How soon we forget.
Winston, WA was the only state in which the Libs picked up seats in the federal election. (I think that is so).
Yeah, OK.
But there has got to be more interesting things to discuss.
Maybe not more important but certainly more interesting.
Like why Iguanagate has had no impact on perceptions of the Federal Government but confirms perceptions of NSW (they are a train wreck). And it’s got nothing to do with how it was handled by Rudd & Iemma.
And the Vic by-election. I am not sure how to will turn out but when speaking to voters there i was somewhat surprised that McGauran was held in such high regard. It is very much a rural seat and even the city dwellers will vote for the candidate who is most supportive of rural interests.
267 A-C – According to you Rudd can do no right and Howard did nothing wrong, so we’re even. You’re no better, so stop your preaching.
#
264
Scorpio Says:
I read it:
I’m a one eyed Liberal supporter; fellow supporters don’t get stressed out; there will be a narrowing.
You do remember the narrowing?
216 BS Fairman
Stevie-oh’s “kjdf sek fo;eijf eiohf ew” is just random characters, not Dutch!
think ‘j’ would be low scoring tile in dutch tho! used in ‘long u’ = ‘ij’ and in diminuitive ‘tje’ at the end of a noun
Well, what is interesting to you might not be important to others, so you should speak for yourself.
The chair-sniffing story was such a scandal it made news services around the world! (As did Neale’s remarks to the preganant Liberal whatshername).
Besides, it is important (IMO) when a state division is in such dire straits they retain a disgraced chair-sniffer as leader, talent apparently being so short on the ground there … in the state of Liberal heartland. (How quickly we forget).
For all we know, his antics might have had an impact on perceptions of the Liberal Party. Brendan Nelson after all did express his “full support and confidence” in Buswell.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23622805-2,00.html
So – this is where you all got to.
good to see that post-JWH the spleen continues.
Just found a recording of Brendan leading his last party meeting trying to lift there spirits with a little song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxYszlBF-Xs&feature=related
Rx, my point exactly!
Er, what was your point?
Stevo @ 230 you make me laugh. Your comments are a cliche on so many levels.
FRANCE, THE NETHERLANDS and BELGUIM have “RIGHT WING” governments. That makes your left comments an oxymoron.
I loved that the French were blaming the socialists for Frances problems last year when they had been governed by conservatives for over 12 years. And now they all hate sarkozy. They get what they deserve. Stupid frogs. Only one president out of the 5 of the fith french republic has been socialist. So whenever im told how the socialists wrecked france it gives me a chuckel.
Once the police report is handed down on Neal and JDB that will end whatever the result. It looks like sniffergate is going to go up to the next state election. Have an election Mr Carpenter.
Rx,
That what you get from the media doesn’t always reflect community perceptions or priorities (and I’m being generous – to you and the media).
Once the Gas Crisis has died down there will be
What do you mean you’re being generous? You initiated the to-and-fro between yourself and me. And did so in a combative, or at least contradictory way, I might add.
Look, if you are not interested in a particular post, what is the point of wasting William’s bandwidth to say so? Easy enough to just scroll past.
Iguanagate and sniffergate is a nice comparison. Because they really only have an impact where they confirm existing perceptions. That’s why they are bad for the state parties (Labor in NSW and Libs in WA) but will have no impact on the Feds.
# 287
How do you know sniffergate will have no impact on perceptions of federal Liberals? Obviously you do not know this, however you are stating it as fact.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/new-stink-kicked-up-over-chair-sniffer/2008/05/06/1209839619603.html
Now, the federal Liberal leader said he has “full support and confidence” in this guy. Again, how do you know this hasn’t hurt them federally?
Rx, there is no ill-will intended in my comments and I apologise if you have taken offence. Just trying to generate a bit of discussion. And it’s just my opinion.
However, I think you will find that based on the recent polls, perceptions of the Federal Government haven’t been affected by the Iguana affair. And it demonstrates the difference between the priorities of the media and the community.
There is a massive dfference between sniffergate and Iguanagate. In Iguanagate the Labor leadership acted on it, in sniffergate the Libs could not. One is a problem of two Labor members, the other is a problem of the entire party.
Fair enough Winston. Maybe it’s too soon to tell if the Iguana thing has an effect on polls federally. The story is still “happening” (such as it is), so perhaps in the next poll or two, if at all? Though we will never know what effect, if any, it has, unless pollsters were to put a specific question about it to those being polled, which is unlikely.
Equally, we will never know whether sniffergate hurt the federal Libs, though Nelson’s full endorsement of Buswell is surely not a good look. And the fact that the Libs in WA are sticking by him as leader can’t look good either, lack of replacement talent notwithstanding.
My point is that the responses of the parties to Iguana/sniffer gates doesn’t matter much. It is the context in which they are perceived by the public. The affairs confirm perceptions of the state parties but have not impacted at the Federal level.
Oh, fer C****t sake, this Newspoll has got, if not death, then certainly dismay, written all over it, for the Libs. They are a shambles. They are in opposition everywhere, except for the Brisbane City Council, and that’s looking a bit dodgy. All they can up with at the Federal level is a 5c. fuel reduction, that is just laughable. If Steveo and Mr. Squiggle are the best the LNP can come up with, well good luck to you.
Rx, let me assure you that it will be addressed in polls.
Shrike @ 290. Well encapsulated.
It can’t be long before Carpenter calls an election in WA: the Liberals over there are a rabble!
And, how interesting the member for Indi is caught out making nasty comments about Julia Gillard!
I felt a bit sorry for Belinda Neal today, she looked very lonely in parliament.
Earliest it can be called is October, there was a Sunday Times article saying as much (can’t find the URL on the website).
I think I understand it now.Nelson and the rest of the coalition,are reading the Bolt/Blair blogs and believe the rest of Australia are thinking the same way as most of their posters. Then their Parliamentary (mis)behaviour is understandable.
Surely some people in the WA Liberal Party are smart enough to roll the seat sniffer before October?
Belinda ought to adopt the Beattie apologising technique. The public love a polly admitting error and then apologising. Beattie was an expert.
But who have they got, short of drafting a high profile candidate like John Worsfield from the Eagles or similar ?
Winston, I believe it’s possible the parties themselves might run some private polling on issues like Iguana or Sniffer.
But I doubt that Morgan or Newspoll for example will ask specifically “Does the Troy Buswell chair-sniffing incident affect your perceptions of the Liberal Party at the federal level?” The questions they ask tend to be about big, ongoing issues such as perceptions of the government on petrol prices; preferred leader etc. Incidents like sniffer and Iguana are by nature ephemeral and quickly forgotten. Hardly worth polling on I wouldn’t have thought.
And is this the new Theme Song for the Liberal Party, in light of Alcopops and Sniffwell ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pJ88yvXb_c
Doesn’t it make you so proud to be Otrayian …. the most important issue facing Ostrayia is the Laberal Party pretending to fight over the words some “right” wing NSW thug-ess said to a “right” wing Victorian thug-ess .. …….. the joys of living in a one party state..
In not voting for either branches of the Laberal Party it means I am so proud i haven’t had a vote for four elections!!!!
At least in Zimbabwe they have more than one party!
Well, what can one say at the end of an evening of thoughtful discussion and well reasoned debate, but “so long, and thanks for all the fish”.
Night all.
Someone get the 1080.
hahaha
consider me dead
The Piping Shrike Says:
I’m surprised you didn’t go further than that, i agree with the view you posted on your web site, Iguanagate is about a very clever polly chopping a faction off at the knees. As for sniffergate, boy the party is in a pretty poor state.
Harry,
when i was going thru the ’someone who is not nice to know phase’-the reaction of certain drugs with alcohol and ptsd is not a nice mix -your ahem advice was timely
Hy, Bushfire around? I wonder what he thought of the latest 702 ABC ratings where the novice Deborah Cameron has taken them up to near 12 and pressing 2GB.
In the same SMH piece they mentioned that Bushfire’s old favourite shills Virginia Trioli and Sally Loane never got them above 8. Has Cameron moved them to the left?
I find ABC radio in Sydney very bland these days, little more than a pale imitation of the commercial stations but without the right wing bias!
Cameron comes across to me as a gossiper. In my opinion, she blows with whatever is the current political wind, turning her morning show into a giggling, running commentary on whatever’s the latest News Ltd. confected outrage theme.
Her analysis is quite shallow. I think her surge in popularity is more to do with Jones losing touch and relevance than with anything positive she has to contribute.
I gave up listening to her months ago. Too trivial by far.
P.S. My sister still listens to Cameron but only in that “glad to be unhappy” way. Cameron’s blatherings give my sister a good heart-start of outrage in the mornings.
“DO u know what would would happen in some of those Arab countries if we went over there and not asimilatied into their way of life, we wouldnt even have the option of being Christian”
Yes, and that’s why they want to migrate here, where we have freedom of religion.
You have to laugh at the latest Reader’s Digest survey on the most trustworthy and least trustworthy Australian.
“While not as trustworthy as Bindi Irwin or burns specialist Fiona Wood – the most trusted Australian for the fourth year in a row – Mr Rudd has done quite well in the latest Reader’s Digest Trust Survey.
The Prime Minister has achieved the highest trust rating given to a politician after being ranked 62nd in the list.
Mr Rudd was ranked 11 places higher than his predecessor John Howard.
The news is not so good for Dr Nelson who comes in at the tail of the field at 93 – just four places above confessed terrorism supporter David Hicks.”
Apologies if anyone else has raised this most pertinent recent poll:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/nelson-fails-to-win-trust-20080618-2set.html
Nelson fails to win trust
“Dr Nelson … comes in at the tail of the field at 93 – just four places above confessed terrorism supporter David Hicks.”
Haha, whoops.
Abbott was one behind brenda on 94 lol
Vera, In all seriousness I’d trust David Hicks over the Mad Monk any day.
Steve
me too
Does anyone know how Feilding voted on this
http://news.smh.com.au/national/coalition-delay-samesex-legislation-20080618-2sk6.html
“Iguanagate” about to ensnare Iemma?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/iguana-turns-on-iemma/2008/06/18/1213468470985.html
Iemma refuses to deny so that means he’s guilty. Oldest jourmalistic trick in the book. He may yet prove to be but this doesn’t prove it.
Gary, very true, and the SMH has been out for Iemma’s blood since he took over from Carr.
The Australian’s intrerpretation of the Readers’ Digest survey:
“Two thirds don’t trust Rudd. Nelson leads Lib rival but powerbrokers may approach Bindi .”
In fact a picture is worth a thousand words at the SMH. A quick glance would lead you to believe that Brenda is more trustworthy.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/mary-bindi-and-the-wiggles-beat-the-pm/2008/06/18/1213468469260.html
vera 322 How many guesses do we need, to know HOW Fielding would vote on ANYTHING to do with samesex legislation????
327
Abstraktbiblos
They even position Nelson’s picture above Rudd suggesting that he was rated as more trustworthy than the PM. Although it’s not a serious case it’s still a good example of either poor journalism or media bias, take your pick. I’m sure any student of media studies or journalism would spot the ‘problem’ with this article yet the editors at the SMH allow it to be posted.
Brenton I was just wondering after Andrew Murray said
“The government should recall the Senate during the winter recess, after the coalition loses its one-seat majority in the upper house.
“Let’s put it to the Senate when the coalition no longer control it.”
Does anyone know when is the next NSW newspoll due?
Phil, this is a great site for timing of future elections throughout Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/home/nextelections.htm#act
Sorry Phil, I read your post to mean elections not Newspoll.
While Newspoll is important Gary, I dont think it yet has the status of elections!
I agree Possum. I must do something about these bloody glasses.
Newspoll’s practice has been to publish ‘bimonthly reading(s) of NSW voting intention & leaders’ ratings’. The last published was on 30 April 2008 and was said to cover the period March-April 2008. I surmise there will be another one published at the end of this month.
In fact a picture is worth a thousand words at the SMH.
IMunHO, the saddest part of that piece is this:
“The only person who’d knock her off the top is Mother Teresa, and she’s dead.”
MT would have to be one of the greatest frauds of the 20th Century
337 Mayo
Bigger than the Libs economic credibility even?
(hardy-ha-ha)
MayoFeral
An excellent article from the WaPo you might be interested in. BTW I found it as a link from Matty Drudge. He really hates McCain. The problems with the VA and McCain’s contempt for his fellow vets is a big Drudge theme.
VA testing drugs on war veterans
Experiments raise ethical questions
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jun/17/va-testing-drugs-on-war-veterans/?page=1
337 Mayoferal,
Yeah, one of the Brits (Chrostopher Hitchens?) did a TV show about her that essentially described Mother Teresa as running a living morgue (no hospital facilities) that tried to force people to convert to Catholicisim on their deathbeds (literally).
Amazing that no media managed to headline the fact the Rudd is in fact the highest scoring politician in the history of the survey….
Hitchins on Teresa: “That thieving Albanian dwarf”.
Diogenes @ 339. Why am I not surprised about the behaviour of pharmaceutical companies?
Mother Teresa is a sacred cow for Catholics. I ended a dinner party prematurely when I vocally espoused what I had just read in Hitchens’ book. I particularly liked the way her hospitals didn’t believe in pain relief. Evidently, the more pain you suffered before you died, the purer you were when you got to heaven. Of course, when Mother Teresa got sick she went to a state-of-the-art hospital in Europe as a VIP.
Harry
I agree. Big Pharm has BIG MONEY. They are almost the biggest lobby group in the US after Big Oil and the War Industry. The VA has complete contempt for the soldiers and are loving the cash for selling them out.
And like Big Oil, Big Pharm knows that their income stream is permanently (at this stage) time limited.
The normal bargaining and ethics of supply-demand economics go out the window when everyone knows you’re holding a limited resource.
Diogenes, What I found infuriatingly unethical was providing a drug without warning of the possible side effects, particularly to people with PTSD. Yes, I’m certainly aware of the lobbying power of Big Pharm. See it all the time, and the corrupting effects of same, as I gather from previous comments you’ve made, that you do too.
BTW, do you recall the breathless reports of biscuits and buns with MT’s supposed face on them? I kept waiting for the face on the dog dropping.
Diogenes @ 339 –
I’m not yet convinced by the claims against Chantix, and especially the suicidality link. I’ve seen that debate in connection with antidepressants where, IMHO, it is mostly male bovine excreta being largely pushed by vested interests.
It may turn out that the claims being made are true, but I want to see more concrete evidence than what has been produced so far. However, I’d be surprised if Chantix didn’t have at least one unwelcome side effect. Most drugs do. Even common aspirin kills and maims far more people than is generally realised.
Plus, the most prescribed alternative stop smoking drug, Zyban (bupropion), also has a cloud over with indications it increases the risk of stroke. And of course the fatality rate from smoking is high.
A far bigger problem, IMO, is sending troops known to be suffering one or more psychiatric disorders back to war zones, often with a big bag of pills to keep them functioning. Every one of their officers, from Lieutenants JG all the way up to the Joint Chiefs should be charged for this atrocity and then taken out and shot!
As for McCain, I’ve just been reading his diatribe against the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision on detainees. I find them unfathomable given his experiences as a POW. But then he now seems to have few problems with torture, either, after initially campaigning against it. This bloke is seriously
weirdunhinged, IMO.Hows this for a Big Pharma lurk. You get a drug – thalidomide and get FDA approval to use it for Multiple Myaloma. You now have the patent on this drug. But you rename it Thalomid.
So a drug that used to cost 50 cents a pill now costs US$900 a pill. Then you make an anolog of your newly patented drug and call it lenolidamide – you then run clinical trials on 30+ diseases looking for a market. You get approval for Myelodysplastic Syndrome even though there were 24 deaths in the clinical trial.
Then you charge US$10,000 a course for a drug that has cost very little to develop.
But don’t get me started this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Here comes a new issue for Brenda.
http://business.watoday.com.au/labors-uncharitable-move-20080618-2skx.html
Frank
Brenda is not going to touch this with a barge pole. It was a budget measure introduced by Tip.
Hockey was the relevant minister at the time – he looked rather sheepish in parliament today when Macklin said Labor would fix the mess caused by the coalition.
Frank , I think they may be able to get out of it relatively easily. Apparently, the implementation relies on the ATO deciding that the non-gov’t sector, delivering health and welfare services, aren’t charities. This problem has been identified for at least a couple of months. I’d have thought some regulations defining what non-gov’t and charitable organisations are eligible to provide salary sacrificing and the categories of things which can be included in a salary sacrifice package, could fix it. Conflict of interest disclosure, I am currently able to salary sacrifice c. $8,700. However, I’m also aware of very, very highly paid health professionals salary sacrificing pretty much their entire publicly paid for salary, and then earning very large amounts of money in their private practice, also subsidised by the taxpayer via Medicare, so perhaps as a tax expert, I make a good social worker! Will shut up on this.
Frank, I can’t help myself. Regulations could also include salary rates at which salary sacrifice tapered away, but there’d be some mightily p****d of senior health professionals.
I’m just commenting on how the Article was written by the Fairfax Journo – comparing it to the Pensions beat up.
Mayoferal @ 347. Prescribing drugs, any drugs, for PTSD, is just lazy. Psychological therapy is established treatment of choice for trauma, and there are a number of treatment modalities with proven effectiveness. The rule should be, don’t prescribe a drug if you don’t have to. Much like antibiotics. If a person has a secondary depression, an antidepressant may help to some extent, but this should be clearly explained, as should side effects and what to do about them.
“The best example is a worker at a charity earning $35,000 a year, but who was given salary-sacrificed benefits of $15,000 a year”.
So this worker is really earning $50,000 a year? Surely the answer is to pay them $50,000 a year?
Why do we have these “exemptions” or to put it less mildly rorts.
If you want social security it does not matter if it is salary sacrificed income or not – you still get the cash. So tough luck – you do not qualify.
Frank @ 353, you could well be right. It will be quite interesting to see just how various journos behave over the next little while, given the annoyingly stubborn behaviour of those being polled, to insist on continuing to think that if an election was held, they just might do the same thing they did last November.
Harry “Snapper” Organs @ 354 -
Psychotherapy may or may not be the ‘established treatment of choice” for PTSD, but the simple fact is that for many it is hard to impossible to access.
We’re fortunate that Medicare will now pay most of the costs, but it’s a different story in many other countries, especially America (too expensive) and the UK (not enough therapists).
Harry “Snapper” Organs @ 354 -
Psychotherapy may or may not be the ‘established treatment of choice” for PTSD, but the simple fact is that for many it is hard to impossible to access.
We’re fortunate that Medicare will now pay most of the costs, but it’s a different story in many other countries, especially America (too expensive) and the UK (not enough therapists).
Oops, sorry. Not sure how the double post occurred
MayoFeral @ the last. Yes, you’re quite right about the access issue. It’s certainly the case there are insufficient numbers of people adequately trained in Australia, and while there is a larger number of people trained in the U.S., their system of managed care is problematic, and yes, the U.K. have too few. But it raises the interesting question, doesn’t it, of where public money goes to treat people? Drugs or training to treat people effectively?
MayoFeral, I sent off my missive without the qualification that sometimes one needs both a drug as well as psychotherapy, but I’m bloody sick of seeing people decanted from the private system into the public system, when they’ve run out of private coverage, doped to the eyeballs, on, I swear, a person I treated, on two antipsychotics, two antidepressants, a mood stabiliser, and a swag load of benzodiazepines (three). This person had Borderline Personality Disorder and complex PTSD. It took 5 years to treat her, but if we didn’t, the intergenerational effects are absolutely toxic (she had a young child and had another during her time with us).
Without wanting to rehash the bias argument, can those who think the media is NOT biased please explain the relative lack of reporting of the 59/41 which represented a 4% change in 2PP lead and a 4% drop for Nelson PPM as opposed to the massive coverage of the no-change 2PP 57/43 Newspoll and the 5% increase in Nelson PPM?
#362 I’m not sure it is just bias. The expectation that Labor’s vote would slump after all the petrol fuss was widepsread.
More like I think the media are losing the plot. Even Shanahan would not like to have got caught in the corner he was with the latest Newspoll.
Andrew @ 362: I’m no fan of the MSM but I’ll play the devils advocate and say they did report it.
Link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23876180-5013871,00.html
and also this….
The Link: http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/dennisshanahan/index.php/theaustralian/comments/fuel_attack_fails/
It was also reported on CH7,9,10,ABC,SBS…especially on Tuesday morning and also on morning radio here in Sydney. I guess it all comes down to the degree of reporting or hysteria created by the media about the polls. Although I’m sure they are still waiting and hoping for the “Honeymoon to be over” !
I was able to catch QT today. I have never seen the government that happy before. There was one continual happy smile after another. And what about Swanny! What are performer. I’ve heard the MSM say that Cossie was the best ever. Swan’s makes Tip look like a former reserve grader.
A far contrast to the other side of the house. They are in mourning. Brenda was straining every fibre of muscle in his cheeks to make a grin. Turnbull was constantly sighing. Hockey’s frown resembled the harbour bridge. Tip looked like he needed to be consoled. And Bishop’s in such a state of shock, she thinks she’s still in high school.
Thoroughly enjoyable to watch.
Centre @ 365. Like you I saw QT for the first time in a long time yesterday. What struck me were the brief cut aways to Costello, in which he looked to be the most miserable creature you could imagine.
Harry “Snapper” Organs @ 360 –
But it raises the interesting question, doesn’t it, of where public money goes to treat people? Drugs or training to treat people effectively?
It has to be both. Some people thrive on psychotherapy, many don’t. Same with drugs. And far too many aren’t helped by either. We are still a long way from treatments that will help the majority, much less cure them.
Andrew @ 362
You have to remember that whistling along to the governments tune does not sell newspapers. If all they printed was “Rudd says something else amazing” each day then their readership numbers would fall like Paris Hiltons panties.
Cashing in on any perceived angst, contention or friction sells newspapers – its like gossip for the psephs.
But the drivel being peddled now is a damn shame to see. Journalists of the classy “old” school such as Oakes, Gratan, Megologenis etc are a dying breed. I do not understand how a newspaper like the Herald Sun can allow a one-sided blog like Andrew Bolts to continue on their pages. Nor do I understand why Piers Ackerman is still allowed onto a keyboard.
The Shrike at 363. I think they are not only losing the plot, they’ve lost it. However, I’ve noticed this week, since the latest polls, specifically the Newspoll, not only is there virtual silence on the implications of said poll, there has been some actual questioning of the Opposition’s position and behaviour, on programs such as PM. Hmm, I thought. Mind you, the Feds. have got some absolutely diabolical problems confronting them/us.
362-364
Shanahan did at last a genuine analysis. There is no way this would happen unless he had no choice and was cornered! But it shows he can do it if he wants to- he simply does not normally want to.
Frank 349
I read your link to the online article by reporter Scott Murdock.
I too do not want to necessarily rehash the bias debate at this particular time but I do not think any of us should forget it. BUT:
I wonder if some of this article is really based on a Liberal Handout. The spin on it is far too cute and one sided. First the general sweeping statement–”Labor is building a reputation for putting sections of the community offside”
Then the inaccurate info- “First, it was the pensioners. The move by the Government not to deliver any extra benefits to old-age pensioners in the budget prompted outrage.” I thought the pensioners were getting an extra $900/year.
Also it was making out the pensioner’s protest was spontaneous.
There is explanation of what the Coalition Gov’t did and also Labor- hardly a place to put spin as that info would come straight from Parliamentary records.
The article finishes off “But Labor, allegedly, was oblivious to the effects it would have. Is that believable? Surely not.” The article effectively clouds the responsibilities in the middle but finishes off with this para.
I could be wrong that some of it comes from a Liberal handout but if not it is certainly one sided.
MayoFeral , see earlier comment at 361. We may have crossed. Still think there’s a debate to be had about where you put public money in health.
Its good to see that the Coalition is still standing up for the battling millionaire in the Senate, rejecting the Luxury car tax, and legislation increasing scrutiny of politicla donations:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/18/2279014.htm
At first I couldn’t work out why they didn’t just vote against the bills. Then I realised – by referring them to a Senate committee they get to delay them beyond the change in July 1 and don’t give the government a chance for a double dissolution trigger. Far be it for them to have courage in their convictions.
Socrates it is a bit rich for Labor to cry crocodiles tears in regards to blocking bills when for years Labor blocked the Coalitions bills. This for a Labor voter like myself was stupid policy because it comes back to haunt you.
370
Referencing the government as ‘Labor’ is the key indicator.
I also reckon that the pattern of using ‘Labor’ to start sentences is a clear clue for anyone to turn off and not bother reading the rest of the article. I don’t think anyone identifies Rudd as being from the ‘Labor’ party the article is intimating.
Socrates @ 372. they’re being spoilers for as long as they can be, because they have no idea what else to do. Think of an alternative way to address the country’s problems? Well, you’d have to think beyond your own political survival. I have nothing but contempt for the Coalition these days. Alternative government? Pshaw. They’re rubbish.
I also watched QT today! I’m impressed with Tanner, he’s a great performer on his feet and he always argues his point in a coherent, intelligent way!
Swan definitely has improved also!
And I just love the member for Dawson, James Bidgood: quite a character!
As for the other side: Hockey’s behaviour today was really quite puerile, Turnball looked bored, and who cares about the rest of that sorry lot?
G’night all.
Marky
Firstly Labor hasn’t had the Senate numbers to block anything for some years, so you must be referring to quite a while ago. Second, even if true in the (many years?) past, two wrongs don’t make a right.
Third, its one thing to block bills you have a stated policy position against – eg GST legislation – and another to do it for purely cynical purposes, or even worse if contrary to your own stated policy positions. The Liberals have said they want to hold the government accountable, and fight inflation. Both of these delays are directly contrary to those alleged aims, hence pure cynicism. Like Harry says they’ve given up hoping for a bounce in Nelson’s polls and are just abusing their power while they still can. How can anyone who claims to be a believer in “liberal” ideology be opposed to increased transparency in political donations?
Howards tax on charity workers was aimed at hospital workers and student unions.
Staff, including admin staff in many hsopitals can salary sacrifice benifits including mortgage payments, laptops, cars etc, but most importantly do not pay FBT, as most others do, giving them a big tax advantage.
It helps the institution in that their wage costs are lower because of this benefit. Student unions may also generally be exempt from FBT gross up, enabling them to offer competitive wages at a lower cost.
Howards main beef about this, aside from the fact they are student unions (boo) is that ordinary folk are getting access to tax advantage usually only the domain of the privileged.
Rod
good to see the obligatory BOO after unions
still raises a chuckle
Yes i agree with you on the Liberal parties positioning and cynical stances and these stances were contrary to the reasons why Labor blocked the Libs bills between 1996 to 2004 where Labor had control of the Senate with a handful of minority parties, however blocking bills is called blocking bills and this is what Labor did, so they have no right to carry on, sorry Socrates do not agree. It is called hypocrisy.
For those that watched Question Time in the HoR today, did anyone else notice Nelson’s hilarious delivery of his question regarding pensioners surviving on $273 per week? He started off speaking directly to the PM and then half way through his question looks directly into the camera to deliver the remainder. It’s so obvious that he’s trying to get cut into the evening news that it’s laughable.
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen him try this tactic before either. Not sure what its success rate is but it never fails to amuse.
367
MayoFeral Says:
Some people thrive on psychotherapy, many don’t. Same with drugs. And far too many aren’t helped by either. We are still a long way from treatments that will help the majority, much less cure them.
Bingo. Both the pharmacological and talking therapies are seriously flawed and limited, and WAY oversold.
“however blocking bills is called blocking bills and this is what Labor did”
Hang on Marky using that argument taking a life is taking a life and everyone should go to jail for it but you and I know there are exceptions to that rule and justifiable exceptions. You just can’t have a blanket statement like that. The circumstances are important here.
Oh and this should worrt all of us who quote from News items on the web.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/18/ap-thatll-be-250-a-word-for-copy-paste-thanks/#more-6550
ebay charity auction
Mid Winter Ball
final bids
Dinner for 4 at Lodge with Kev $20,600
Dinner for 6 with Julia $15,600
Dinner for 4 with Brenda, Chuckies mum and their most senior front bench colleagues $7,600
Are the Lib supporters tight ars*s or is it that they just can’t stomach dinner with their own mob?
#384:
“however blocking bills is called blocking bills and this is what Labor did”
Hang on Marky using that argument taking a life is taking a life and everyone should go to jail for it but you and I know there are exceptions to that rule and justifiable exceptions. You just can’t have a blanket statement like that. The circumstances are important here.
And the Liberals have their reasons for blocking these bills.
Sean
please tell us what those reasons are?
Sean
Your remark is vacuously true. I presume the plausible reasons you refer to are personal interest, bitterness and egotism. If your remark were true in some other fashion, no doubt the coalition would have advanced those reasons, rather than park the debate for a year.
388
As much as I’ve thought about it, I can’t work out what on Earth the opposition hopes to gain by their actions in the Senate. They’re not ideologically opposed to these issues, and they don’t appear to think there are votes up for grabs either, given the total reticence to attempt to make any political mileage over their delay of these budget measures. That their best response when challenged over their actions is merely to assert the right to such actions indicates they’re not even sure themselves quite what they seek to achieve.
Most likely, it boils down to being one of the few things they can do to lash out at the government and attempt to cause some discomfort. With a hatred of the Labor party being the only thing holding the opposition together (Hockey has admitted as much in Parliament) and their Senate majority soon to expire, they have decided to do something, anything, to attempt to inflict damage on the government, and damned be the consequences.
And consequences there will be. Not content with merely being rightly blamed for all negative economic conditions up to the present time, they’ve given the government permission to blame any future negative economic developments on them as well. And with a reporting date of mid 2009 for the committee reviewing amendments to the Electoral Act, there is ample opportunity for the government to paint the opposition as corrupt, hiding behind the inflated non-disclosure threshold for political donations. The government’s line that the opposition is in bed with private health insurance, big oil and the spirits industry ties everything up into a lovely little package.
All in all, it doesn’t seem to be a sustainable approach for the opposition to take over the long term, and I’d be surprised not to see these amendments recalled into Parliament and passed once the gravity of their actions begins to hit home.
Yoyama at #390
Nice summation of the hole they’ve dug for themselves – and hence the attack angle(s) the government can now convincingly use.
Rudd should force an early sitting of the new senate asap. It makes very good business sense. It has been reported that the cost of such an action would be in the order of $1m. If they can hasten the passage of the subject legislation by, say, two months the return on investment will be 20000% (simplest calculation – $200m return for $1m expense).
Not to mention the political gains.
Labor didn’t block bills 96 to 04. It opposed them.
SOME bills were supported by the Dems/Greens/Inds and opposed by Labor – ergo, passed.
SOME bills were not supported by the Dems/Greens/Inds and also opposed by Labor – ergo, defeated.
Minor parties and Labor are at odds on many issues and the merits of the bill – not the advantage to Labor – would have been the motive of the minors.
Labor couldn’t block bills!
However the issue is not really about the above. It’s about Oppositions voting against the Govt as a political tactic. A crude, dishonest and wilful act of self interest which only serves to undermine the process – but, however, is still fair game in the Westminster system.
On this score both Labor and Libs/Nats have always been guilty.
Is the Australian offline for anybody else this morning, or has Dennis finally had enough of me?
“The Australian” site was having difficulties late last night I found. I’m not surprised it’s off today.
Anybody else well and truly over the JBD and Belinda Neal thing? I have totally lost the thread of who is doing what to who. I suspect I’m not Robinson Crusoe.
Ok, thanks GB
When the first suggestion fails why not simply double the offer! Simple! Trouble is where do you cut?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/19/2279316.htm
So a 10c per litre cut in excise will save the average motorist $5 per week tops while the price of fuel will continue to rise. Nelson better get this drongo on the phone quick smart and tell him to shut the f**k up. They can’t back up their current call for a cut in excise with identified spending cuts so how can they appear creditable by doubling the offer? Where does it end? No excise at all?
I see our part time PM is off travelling again… lol, Rudd can’t wait to get back to China.
399
John of Melbour
Lift your game. We expect better than cheap shots from you.
390
Yoyoma
Well said.
399
John of Melbourne
Is that the best ya got on Rudd? If it is then, like opposition parties the country over, you need to seriously rethink your tactics.
I’m trying but it’s a new government. Give me a couple of years and I’ll give you what for.
395
Gary Bruce
The Oz site is still down. Is it possible that they have drowned in their own bile?
hooray, a journo who is writing about the crappy political spin articles as they are–oh happy day–theres still some factual journos around.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23886312-5013458,00.html
403 Steve K – Hope so Steve.
Steve K and GB you guys have the ABC, The Age etc and we may have a few journalists at The OZ but all in all I think there coverage is fair and even.
406 John – the ABC (LOL), The Age to a degree and the OZ fair and even (LOL). I notice John you left out all of the other major newspapers in the land. I wonder why that is.
GB why complain Labor won didn’t they and by the sounds of it with no thanks to the MSM.
Anyway criticism is good part of eternal vigilance I suppose.
404
judy barnes
I heard Paul Bongiorno of Network 10 on News Radio this morning. I don’t think his name has been mentioned here as another journo who is pretty balanced and fair. A good test of balance is to ask “Which party would he support?” In the case of PB I’m unsure which is a good thing.
American politics…
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23888173-5012572,00.html
408 John – I’ll take that as a “Oh, I see my mistake now, you are right Steve K and GB.”
What you say is right John – “Labor won didn’t they and by the sounds of it with no thanks to the MSM” but it doesn’t make uneven media bias right, if such bias has to happen at all.
J of M is correct. The incessant complaints about mainstream media ring hollow. The Rudd hegemony is going to prevail in the short to medium term, so it really doesn’t matter what is written and said in the media and whether it is good bad or indifferent to this country’s twenty sixth prime minister and his parliamentary colleagues. I think all of us agree that political orthodoxy at this time (that is, Rudd’s ascendancy over the opposition) is not always reflected or even properly acknowledged in the MSM. It’s time to move on.
There are some good political journos out there in that they give it out to both sides. I have no problem at all with that. I just happen to think this should be the norm rather than the exception.
GB you’re funny… I didn’t say, “Oh, I see my mistake now, you are right Steve K and GB.” I was simply extrapolating your arguments.
In relation to the media no one will ever be happy.
Lets hear it for David Charles. Good work DC
“The incessant complaints about mainstream media ring hollow.”
“I think all of us agree that political orthodoxy at this time (that is, Rudd’s ascendancy over the opposition) is not always reflected or even properly acknowledged in the MSM.”
I’m just wondering David how you marry these two statements together? Doesn’t “ring hollow” mean there is no substance to the complaints and doesn’t “all of us agree that political orthodoxy at this time is not always reflected or even properly acknowledged in the MSM” suggest there is substance to the complaints?
Which is it?
By the way John you bought into what was just a jovial aside by Steve K and myself. We were not having a big discussion on media bias.
GB I think David means complaining about the msm now rings hollow for whatever they the msm say won’t matter as Rudd and Labor are in their ascendency.
GB oops, can you forgive me?
Oh, all right John, you’re forgiven.
Cheers Gary
Do anyone think there will be a carbon tax on petrol in 2010?
I personally do not believe so as it will be a massive slug to working families.
If you do not believe in global warming I think you shouldn’t have to pay the tax.
I think Rudd will go early and make different promises for the next election that way he can continue to claim there are no core or non core promises.
Rudd does have a case for not including a carbon tax on fuel as the sudden increase in prices is doing the job a carbon tax would do, reducing consumption. Garnot reckons the price hike will see Australia actually more than achieve its Kyoto target.
422 John – A carbon tax on petrol in 2010 will be a hard ask. I don’t think it will happen. Petrol is being priced out of existence as it is. As far as going early is concerned, it depends on the circumstances at the time and there are many changes that could take place, eg the economy, the opposition etc.
New promises are usually made at election time and if he does and follows through if re-elected I can’t see the problem.
422
John of Melbourne Says:
June 19th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
…If you do not believe in global warming I think you shouldn’t have to pay the tax….
Yeah, and if you don’t support the war in Iraq you shouldn’t have to pay the proportion of tax that funds the war…and if you don’t have children you shouldn’t have to pay the proportion of tax that helps fund child care, schools, dental health care for children….and if you – enough already – this is a silly argument JoM.
Neither core nor non-core?
Truly, if there was a third way, Howard would have thought of it! LOL
Kina, I believe Rudd doesn’t want to be seen as having core and non core promises. You’re right to say he does have a case but history tells us he had a case to place the tax cuts into super as opposed to giving them out and he gave them out as he said he would. My point is the only way he can change that is if he goes to an early election with a different promise.
Steve K true the arguement is silly and was intended as such.
Bryce excellent point, had me in stitches.
Good old Ann of WA sprouting Liberal Party Talkinig points re the WA Gas Crisis.
( * ann
* June 19, 2008
* 08:26 AM
Howard – State Governments are RESPONSIBLE to MAKE SURE there is sufficient POWER AND WATER – FOR US the PEOPLE!!!
Apache is a private company however the State Labor Government was RESPONSIBLE to KEEP THE CHECK AND BALANCE. This Government Agency REPORTED TO THIS GOVERNMENT that there WAS GREAT concern of this particular Pipeline 4 YEARS AGO.
So, we should be ASKING: What happened to this REPORT did this Labor Government take ANY notice of this REPORT???
However, in the meantime the Media Political Spin is on display for us all to see:
FIRST: There was The Premier Alan Carpenter on Prime Time Television trying to CON the Western Australian People saying little but trying to cover his Political Skin telling us all to stop using so much power.
SECOND: Yesterday this so called Premier was giving out light bulbs in paper bags and signing autographs.
The State is in a HUGE POWER CRISIS, businesses are closing down more than 630 fellow Western Australians may have lost their JOBS and the Premier has turned into a ROCK STAR – there he was performing in front of the cameras, surrounded by adoring women and signing AUTOGRAPHS.
My Question: How has the Premier been able to turn such a POLITICAL NEGATIVE into a POLITICAL POSITIVE signing AUTOGRAPHS???
I must be the only one that sees something terrible WRONG in all this shameful POLITICAL SPIN!
We are the ENERGY CAPITAL OF THE WORLD – we the People are told to stop using ENERGY and the Premier has turned into a ROCK STAR???
What The?
This is a COMPLETE JOKE!!!!
HOW DUMB AND STUPID ARE WE THE VOTERS OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA??
I SAY VERY DUMB AND VERY STUPID!!!]
http://blogs.watoday.com.au/madashell/2008/06/premier_full_of.html
429
Frank Calabrese
Wow, what a shrill pain in the proverbial.
“Steve K true the arguement is silly and was intended as such.” If that’s the case John, why bother?
The Conservative dream. Still in the hearts of some.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23883743-27197,00.html
It’s convenient to say you intended to be silly after the inherent silliness of a statement you apparently made in earnest has been exposed.
More trouble for the WA Libs as former leader quits the Party.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/omodei-quits-liberal-party-20080619-2tao.html
I’m waiting for the day when the devil gets thrown out of hell for associating with Brian Bourke. ! : )
Sondeo. Didn’t you know that Brian Burke is the devil?
The writings and associations of Mr Bourke shall go down in Australian political infamy. Gee, I bet all the folks that voted for him are glad we have secret ballots. !
Dear oh dear, QT is a bloodbath.
GG Thanks for that link; ROTFL. Having taken themselves too far to the right, its wonderful to think that there is still a hard core of right-wing nut-bars wanting to anchor the Liberal ship out of the main stream. The thought that they see Nelson as “too left” when the more saleable Turnbull is further left is really quite funny.
Inner Westie – good point; it looks like Nelson must have said quite a few intentionally silly things lately. He really should explain that in advance though -then we will see he is really so clever after all
Actually, I haven’t found QT was particularly exciting today so far Possum. What are you picking up on?
Possum Comitatus
Indeed
399
John of Melbourne Says:
I see our part time PM is off travelling again…
Did you also see that Dolly and Smirk are off on an OS trip at taxpayers expense to USA. hmm and backbenchers the pair of them!
QT is the only opportunity for an opposition to get traction against the Govt. There is usually a strategy to questions leading up to a Thursday QT that sets the news agenda for the weekend.
The opposition has been floundering today – they have not landed a punch. I guess they may still have a stunt up their sleeves but they look demoralised.
Yoyo – the Coalition is trying to deal themselves back into the economic debate by playing a bad version of gotcha over Rudds inflation remarks, but the whole thing was thrown back in their face with interest, including over budget measures that the coalition are delaying. But it was the way it was done, the effortlessness of the ALP response that made it so stinging.
Nelson is struggling to keep his party disciplined, they are losing seriously rusted on voters, he’s come off the back of the worst Coalition primary vote level under his leadership and a fortnight of frothing that he thought was gaining traction and which, as we knew well here, wasnt (as the polls have clearly shown).
Todays bloodbath is the way in which Labor can now effortlessly swat Coalition melodrama and throw it back in their face, to the point where the Coalition no longer have the passion or encouragement to even give a shit about the fact that it’s happening.
They’re just resigned to their own inevitable failure.
They’re simply standing up to ask questions knowing they’re going to get knocked down – and this is the first time I’ve seen it happen in this Parliament.
The Coalitions only comfort – some of the press gallery reporting how wonderful they were doing in Parliament – has now collided with the reality of public opinion and are no longer following the “Nelson as parliamentry performer” spiel. So Nelson has nothing left. QT has caught up to political reality – and finally, both sides of parliament and nearly all of the press gallery now know it.
ruawake
I’m sure the Dwarf will write a fairy tale for the weekend papers to get the libs through the final week of parliment. lol
To demonstrate the farce – Turnbull is now quoting his own website and demanding that comments about it from Labor be retracted.
Swan tables the page in response – game over, Turnbull looks like a self absorbed dickhead in the process.
Bloodbath
Turnbull – not getting how stupid he looks, continues on with talking about himself, talking about his own website as if anyone but him actually gives a shit.
They’re clueless – now the gallery journos are going to write comments laughing at Turnbulls self-absorption, assisting that meme to settle into the minds of people who dont already believe that anyway.
They are hopeless.
Possum, you nailed it perfectly. When I was watching I was thinking to myself, why are they like this? must be big punch about to come but no, there wasn’t any. Even the Gov didn’t bother to throw a punch, they just swatted then away as you said.
I don’t know what happenned to Joe Hockey in QT today. Only one stupid point of order and very little of the usual noise and guffawing.
The head prefect (Julie Bishop) also very subdued.
Swan gets better and better, he has really improved his QT performance skills!
And Labor has some talented backbenchers, compare them with the garbage on the other side LOL
Possum, thanks for your considered remarks. I’d picked up on the opposition’s repeated questioning over Rudd’s minor error when attempting to recall inflation data in yesterday’s QT, however their attacks were so weak I wasn’t sure quite what they were trying to achieve.
However, I hadn’t picked up on the opposition’s utterly despondent attitude. I guess there’s a considerable amount lost listening to events on the radio compared to watching on TV or online.
Possum 444
“…Todays bloodbath is the way in which Labor can now effortlessly swat Coalition melodrama and throw it back in their face, to the point where the Coalition no longer have the passion or encouragement to even give a shit about the fact that it’s happening…”
Succinctly put. As I watched Nelson arrange his papers to exit the house at the end of question time I saw a man who is aware that his day of execution is drawing near. His body language said “I’m done for – I’ve got nothing more to say.”
And yet judging by Turnball’s performance in parliament, would he really be that much better than Nelson?
453
Progressive Says:
June 19th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
And yet judging by Turnball’s performance in parliament, would he really be that much better than Nelson?
No. In fact Nelson is better value as he can at least show some semblance of understanding of how tough it is for ‘working families’. Allbull is all bluster, bravado and bull butter (ah, I wonder if Glen is tuning in to PB these days) who is so much in love with himself he fails to even register the existence of ordinary Australians. I’m not sure if I’d rather see Allbull get the gig and fail big time as he surely would or have him become bitter and twisted like the member for Higgins by not getting the gig at all. Either way is destined to miss out on the thing he desires more than anything else.
I was a bit young at the time but were Labor in a similar position when JWH won in 1996?
Penny Wong was impressive today, she answered in a very cool calm and collected way, that lass is going to go a long way.
has anyone noticed the way the government goes about it’s business there–compared to the rautious schoolboy antics across the floor, thats another reason Costello wouldnt be able to make it now, his histrionics and overacting would stand out even more like the proverbial sore thumb and would destroy any semblance of dignity the opposition have, they still hav’nt worked out that the public is sick of playacting and hamming it up in place of proper policies.
If Turnbull becomes leader there’ll be an initial bounce, but the Libs will not only gain some voters, they’ll lose some other voters to the “others” column.
He’ll be sliced and diced by the Labor machine in 6 months because he doesnt know when to STFU and stop talking about himself. He’s not as smart on politics as he thinks he is, so there’ll be no telling him otherwise.
It will be Mark Latham in a Fioravanti suit – except he wont get the suburban mum bounce.
JoM – nothing like it. They were depressed, but they werent dysfunctional.
Cheers Possum and congrats on the wedding.
I agree Turnbull needs more time to become joe public. I would like to see Abbott I really like him IMHO he is cool.
……Possum you could give Mr Keating a run for his money. !
Ta JoM,
I think the Labor party would really like to see Tony Abbott become leader too
JoM @ 459: To be fair to Abbott he would be better off where he is. I tend to think that he has a problem with women politicians from the opposite side…his “people skills” are somewhat lacking.
It is always entertaining to hear Swan, Tanner and Rudd laying into “the Member for Higgins”.
Just a few short months ago he swaggered about, with a grandiose belief in himself as a Question Time bigshot.
In reality, he was little more than a loudmouthed smartarse who could only ever cut it thanks to the protection of the biased Liberal Speaker.
Talk about a man reduced. He’s gone from piling insults onto Labor from the position of upper hand … to a crestfallen and shiftless backbench seat-warmer, broken, defenceless against an open-ended stream of mocking humiliation.
I understand everyones point of view but he’s cool. He could challenge Rudd to a boxing match, lol. Rudd could do with some training he is getting a bit big around the mid riff.
Rx, Costello did a good job of getting under Nick Sherry’s skin, with a few possum references.
@ 436 Just Me,
Brian Burke is *not* the Devil.
The devil is on the side of evil.
Brian Burke is on the side of…Brian Burke.
The devil is immoral; BB is Amoral.
Much more dangerous.
BTW, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this thread, thanks folks.
How does Tony Abbott rate on the BBQ scale? I mean, I understand that any self-respecting aspirational Australian would postpone his grandmother’s funeral for the opportunity to sizzle it up with Joe Hockey (the big avuncular bear), but what would he forgo for the same pleasure with Abbott? A date with the renal surgeon? Not on your life. A meeting with Bernie Banton? Well … the question is out of order.
Inner Westie, I’d give him Abbot a 7 possible 8. He’s a man’s man! Hockey would be brilliant but it’s not his time. He’d need a good IR policy to being with.
Sorry re earlier post being should be begin
Abbott has zero chance of ever being PM. He has alienated way too many people in the electorate.
Just watched Bob Brown on agenda on skynooze. He looks ill
It will be interesting to see how he handles the pressure in the next couple of years. Given this is most likely his last term as a senator (he is 64) can the greens hold together without him?
JoM, you’d want to make sure Abbott lay off the sauce else he might start picking fights with the women. A liquored up Hockey, on the other hand, would just go around giving everyone coconuts and wedgies. (Very juvenile but not terribly threatening.)
Neither of them would be invited back, in my opinion. And for the record I’d give Abbott 2 and Hockey 2.5 on the BBQ scale.
ruawake, Christine Milne would more than capably replace Bob Brown if he were to retire at the end of his term.
Inner Westie good work had me laughing but I think you’re thinking of Belinda Neil when it comes to picking fights with women, lol. I’d go to Scores with Rudd… vip all the way.
Abbott would be cool to watch in a fight and Hockey well he’d eat all the food… good times. If Kevin Rudd is Mr. Sheen and Peter Garret is death from Bill and Ted’s excellent adventure then Hockey is Peter Griffin from Family Guy.
Christine Milne has only had 4 years experience as a Senator, she will be chewed up and spat out.
The greens have had the luxury of having power without responsibility in the past. Things get difficult soon.
IMHO the first order of business for the greens will be gay rights, possibly gay marriage, may turn of the community.
ruawake, leader of the Tassie Greens at a time when the party held the balance of power is not bad preparation. I mean, granted, she wasn’t head of a doctors’ lobby group or Liverpool council or anything …
476
John of Melbourne
You’re kidding, right?
#466 wrote – Joe Hockey (the big avuncular bear).
Plleeaase ! Give us a break. Hockey was one of the chief urgers while in power on worst choices. The minute they lost office he disowned the policy.
He was willing and anxious to knife those who could not defend themselves with worst choices.
Yet he and others stood by while rodent ruined the liberal party for many years to come and they didn’t have the ticker to even protect their own party, let alone the country from dear leader and family who had decided the PM-ship was HIS and HIS alone.
Joe should hang his head in shame. An avuncular bear – get outta here !
Just Me, ok not first order but I think the Greens would like something done on this since the Libs have refused it.
er.. try #467
I think it likely that Hockey, along with so many Liberals with an ideological hatred of workers’ unions, saw WorstChoices as their guided missile aimed at the heart of that movement. Destroy workers’ unions, went the plan, and the financial guts would be ripped out of the Labor Party … resulting in permanent Liberal hegemony.
And the workers? With emasculated advocacy, they were to be almost completely servile to the Liberals’ big business and employer constituency.
IW
I thought Milne lost her seat in Tas in 1998. After a stellar career that mainly consists of assisting Bob Brown.
She was shafted by the major parties in Tas when they reduced the number of seats – but it was on her watch that the Greens lost forever the possibility of holding the balance of power in Tas.
So her only experience in holding the balance of power lead to her losing her seat.
dave @479
I’m troubled that you could not detect my irony or sarcasm and that I have to make their presence clear to you …
Far from being a big avuncular bear, if I must spell this out, Hockey is a sneering bully with about as much social conscience and policy intuition as a lab rat primed with anthrax.
Plus in an interview with the Courier Mail a couple of months before the last election he said he wished he could be on an AWA, because then he would be able to demand (from taxpayers) a salary of $410,000 a year, and arrange so he didn’t have to work on weekends or public holidays.
Just Me, ok not first order but I think the Greens would like something done on this since the Libs have refused it.
Fair enough. But what exactly is the problem with wanting that change? I don’t think it is as unpopular with the electorate as some do. As far as I can see, the truth is that the opposition to it consists of a small number of loudmouth, intolerant, hardline religious and conservative folk, who will never come around. Most of the rest of us don’t really care one way or the other. There are far more important things for the heterosexual population to worry about and oppose than having a handful of long term gay relationships being officially declared ‘marriages’.
I have a much simpler option – privatise marriage. Repel the marriage act. Marriage should be a decision made between a pair of consenting adults (18 years or older). The State and the Government should have absolutely nothing to do with it. Gay marriage shouldn’t be enshrined in legislation, but neither should heterosexual marriage.
The only reason we have a marriage act in the first place is because the State had to assume the role as being the arbiter of marriage to stop various religions from saying that they were the only true institution that properly defined marriage. Doing so resulted in wars, so the State took it over to make marriage a secular institution divorced from religion (ceremonies in churches do not constitute marriage, signing a marriage certificate is what actually constitutes a marriage). We now have a civil society that no longer needs the State to be the arbiter of what is and isn’t marriage. Therefore it should be privatised. If two consenting adults want to consider themselves marriage, then we should simply take their word for it. If one of them revokes their consent, then they would be considered divorced.
I agree that there should be regulation to stop parents marrying children, and brothers marriage sisters. But this can be added to the criminal code on the grounds that parents marrying children, and brothers marrying sisters puts at risk any off spring due to genetic similarity.
I realise in practice this would be hard to do because the social security system is completely mixed in with the legal institution of marriage. But just because that is the case doesn’t justify the fact marriage is still an act of parliament.
Of course the “avuncular bear” moniker was bestowed on hockey by rodent in an attempt to make worst choices smell better in the run up to the election when andrews the undertaker was put down.
Like most “self praise” it is no recommendation. Quite the opposite…..
Bit like Tony “people skills” Abbott, refrain of “but, but but….we were a GOOD government ! ”
No matter how many times its repeated, it just doesn’t wash.
Marriage saves the Govt hundreds of millions of dollars in social security payments.
Doesn’t Iceland have a certain way of dealing with bears?
An aside thinking about the retiring Dems – if their party folds do people think there is there any chance any would join one of the other parties or take another role afterwards?
I confess to personal bias but I still have a fair bit of respect for Andrew Bartlett and Lyn Allison in sticking to their principles in consistently opposing both Workchoices and some of the nastier Howard stunts like the Pacific solution and indeed the war in Iraq itself. It seems a pitty that people like that will be lost from public life, especially when I look at what is now sitting on opposition benches and still getting paid.
I’m with you there Socrates. I feel a bit sad about their passing. Actually I watched the first half of QT in the Senate last night and was quite impressed by Bartlett’s questions re. nuclear disarmament. They were well posed, non-combative, seemingly unaffected by any childish political pretext, and, shock horror, aimed at bettering his understanding about the issue concerned.
MayoFeral
Any chance of this getting up. The Tiser as usual tries to trivialise the issue of giving MDMA for PTSD. Only the Dems would be brave enough to put something like this up, given the mentality of the public about issues like this.
Democrat wants ecstasy for traumatised Aussie war vets
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23890125-5006301,00.html
The FDA and the Spanish Ministry of Health have concluded that the risk/benefit ratio is favorable under certain circumstances for clinical studies investigating MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Both agencies have approved pilot studies in chronic posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12691208?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
This was six years ago. But of course it is trivialised by “journalists”.
ruawake. Some good points there about marriage, particularly given that the law now gives equal status to long term de facto relationships.
Socrates. I’ll will miss the retirement of those two, plus one or two others as well. They were a substantial (albeit imperfect) force for good governance and policy in Oz, and a lot of people don’t give them credit for it
Buswell ejected from Parliament.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/buswell-thrown-out-of-parliament-20080619-2tg5.html
BTW, did Wilson organise his weekly expulsion to coincide with his early flight ?
In Q Time today, I thought the most pertinent moment was when Rudd was making a report, on the anniversary of the intervention into the NT. He was continually heckled by the backbenches of the Lib’s about his “Sorry” to the Stolen Generations. Brenda’s manufactured reply of bitpartisanship made me puke – let’s hear it for Howie, lets hear it for Brough (FFS the guy lost his seat) and the disclaimer at the end – our side don’t recognise that reconciliation just started with that apology – party of effin prats. Howard apologise, Libs apologise, I think not!
476 John of Melbourne Another Homophobe????? You sad little man!!!!!
Did anyone else listen to PM this evening? It would appear from the reports of Rudd being “under pressure” in QT over the inflation data, that the comments on QT from Possum, Local Identity and Progressive, are at some variance. Scratches head in bemusement.
Harry, didn’t see PM but watched QT and in complete agreement with Poss , LI and Prog re QT – it was a walkover
What Rudd said “When it comes to the period ahead, we expect that inflation will
moderate, from memory, to 3.75 and for the year following I do not have those figures in front of me.” (Hansard)
So what are Brenda and Allbull waffling on about? Rudd qualified his answer with “from memory” in other words I may be incorrect.
If this is the best they can do they are a shambles.
ruawake @ 494, One of the things you always need to be careful about with clinical trials of any sort are the inclusion/exclusion criteria. In the case of people with complex or chronic PTSD, this being an area of special interest for me, is how people are screened for either inclusion or exclusion, and therefore, treatment as usual, whatever that is, in the control group, and treatment plus the agent whatever it is, in the treatment group. People with complex and/or chronic PTSD are a very heterogeneous group of people indeed, and from practice and research in the area, the brain chemistry alone is such, that no one psychoactive agent is all that useful, no matter what anyone tells you. For some, low doses of an old fashioned antipsychotic taken on an as needed basis, can be effective, for some old fashioned cannabis indica, in small doses, can be effective. there’s a heap of other things you can do to help people deal with intense feeling states and flashbacks.
Thanks, cille, thought so.
Harry
Is cannabis available anywhere in Oz legally for PTSD?
Cille at 497
That was the telling moment today in QT – it cut through a fortnight of spin and horseshit laid on three feet deep to demonstrate, singularly, which side of politics are currently little more than a nest of over baggaged bunyips.
#505 Possum – it won’t get any coverage though and that pisses me off – (and no, I don’t want to go thru all the msm bias again)
So this is the great team Howard kept going on about?
Yes Kina, one thing you would have to say about Howard is at least he camouflaged his pathetic team to some extent
Howard and his team was a vicious cycle.
They gave him no reason to trust them, they never demanded trust from him, and he never really had any desire to trust them either.
And yet they trusted him for their livelihood and career.
It adds up to seriously bad judgement and perspective all ’round.
Hence their current leaderless-ness now – no thinkers and not even any politicians who can muster significant support from supposedly like-minded colleagues.
It’s somewhat bizarre that there’s more unity amongst their supporters than within the party itself.
Yes, Onimod…
But, of course, being anti-Labor is the glue that is binding Lib supporters – that’s all they’ve got – because there’s nothing positive to cheer about.
And, unfortunately for them, voters at large can also see what they’re seeing.
My heart bleeds.
This is great news for Rudd and Labor. Intersest rates will be dropping around election time. Just what the doctor ordered.
http://business.theage.com.au/inflation-tipped-to-slow-20080619-2tai.html
Diogenes @ 493 –
MayoFeral
Any chance of this getting up. The Tiser as usual tries to trivialise the issue of giving MDMA for PTSD.
I doubt it. They can’t even get cannabis up to treat illnesses like MS or to ease the effects of chemotherapy, and most would see marijuana as more benign than MDMA (and probably cancer and MS more worthy of going out on a limb for than a mere mental illness).
However, an old TB antibiotic, d-cycloserine, may produce similar results. It helps to consolidate fear extinguishment when taken with, or immediately after exposure therapy. It appears to do so by binding glycine sites on MDMA receptors in, specifically, the amygdalae, the brain’s main fear alarm centres, enhancing receptor function.
Mayoferal
Is that effect cumulative and persistent?
#511
Given that these economists largely failed to predict how large the recent rises in fuel and food prices have been (and thus the flow-on effect on inflation), why should we believe any of their predictions for 2010?
While it’s almost impossible to forecast what will happen with oil prices (as they seem to be affected by more than straight supply and demand), I can’t see too much relief from inflation pressures on things like food, rents, power prices, and health costs in the next couple of years. And the skills shortage will ensure that there’ll be enough wage rises around to keep feeding into inlfation too. Maybe interest rates will fall towards the next election, but any government would prefer it happened sooner.
Thoughts on tonight’s Q&A on the ABC:
Nice to see Cheryl Kernot back on TV
Chris Bowen is definitely impressive, a real up & comer
Chris Pyne: OK in small doses, but of course Tony Jones had to ensure he got the majority of the questions!
Julia Zamiro: why do we need a comedian on the panel?
The Liberal bloke from Ashfield, Sydney: a complete waste of space, and nothing to contribute except his rather rowdy cheersquad in the audience.
Diogenes back at 504. No there isn’t, unfortunately. It’s also a particularly good palliative help to people with cancer, undergoing chemotherapy, and some forms of ocular disease, reduces intraocular pressure.
Progressive. Tonight’s Q & A pissed me off no end. You might as well have called it “Chris Pyne Tonight” with back up from some ditzy bint and a Lib. NSW council member, plus return appearance from Cheryl. Gawd almighty, what a crock.
Well, scrub that. I’ll never watch it again.
Just Me @ 513 – seems to be persistent. Hard to comment on cumulative. The drug itself isn’t the main agent for extinguishing the fear, that comes from the therapy, d-cycloserine appears to mainly consolidate or ‘fix’ the gains made.
There is also evidence that it could also be a preventative at high does, though most of the work in that area is with the beta-blocker propranolol. But this is a controversial subject because of the possibility, indeed the inevitability if it works, that such preventatives could be used to create uncaring killing machines.
Progressive @ 515 : I nearly choked when Pyne stated that the Liberals still remained true to what Menzies meant the Liberal Party to be, and they hadn’t moved to the right and allowed Labor to claim the middle ground.
Also on the Murray-Darling and the dire straits it is in, Pyne giving the govt heaps over supposed govt inaction and Kernot chipping in with ” well you did nothing about it Chris for a decade, it just didn’t happen.”
Why was Julia Zamiro there.? She had absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute.
Economists often do not agree with each other.
I was watching some of Q&A tonight on fuel prices but switched over to another channel – same old, same old. Nobody really had any answers except for us to use other sources of energy. Even Christopher Pyne said that although he put it in terms of everyone adapting rather than global warming. Ch 10 in its short update talked about a political fight to reduce petrol prices(more tabloid nonsense) – it is just not going to happen, at least in the long term.
Obviously fuel prices feed into food prices and just about everything else.
Interest rates could fall or not. I don’t believe anyone knows for sure, inhcluding economists.
One thing though, I think the Gov’t is heading the right direction to keep them as low as possible in the long term, taking.into account political realities. Keating made the mistake of going too far for too long and while he did immense long term good to the economy he gave a political gift to the LNP which they dined out on for about 11 years. Rudd -Gillard & co. will not make that mistake.
Tonight’s Q&A ;
Cheryl Kernot: I used to have a bit of time for her. After tonights effort, I realise what a number of people have said previously. She is a lightweight and far inferior to the average current ALP Backbencher.
Chris Bowen: Have to agree, Progressive. Very impressive.
Chris Pyne: Total waste of space & agree with his final remark that he is unlikely to be invited again. Q&A made a big mistake putting him on. How the rusted-on Lib supporters can think that he is future leadership material is totally beyond me.
Julia Zamiro: Must be a natural blonde. Totally out of her depth & demonstrated a lack of any knowledge on domestic or international politics. Performed better than Christopher Pyne though which puts his performance into perspective.
The Young Liberal Councillor from Ashfield, Sydney: a complete waste of space and a further example of the standard of talent that the far right of the Liberal Party are putting forward. With people like him & Mr Pyne, Labor don’t even have a contest. Bad for future good governance.
Doug @ 520:
MayoFeral @ 518. Propranalol is dangerous for all sorts of reasons. I still argue for the psychological therapies for people who are experiencing PTSD in any of its forms, and drugs of any sort as adjunct only. EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing, wrongly named as it turns out), Graduated Imaginal Exposure, are at least 2 approaches with peer reviewed evaluations. Clinical Hypnotherapy also very useful.
I reckon the pipsqueak (Christopher Pyne) at the end of Q and A tonight realised that he had indeed made a fool of himself.
Whoo hoo
So Pyne is usless, Turnbull is no hope, MDMA is bengin and the MSM is sooo nasty to the nice Kevin Rudd.
Meanwhile interest rates are high, petrol is through the roof, and grocery prices keep on rising whilst house prices are tipped to increase 25% not to mention the shermarket tanking with stocks liek NAB and Woolworths down over 33%.
Welcome to the world of labor.
But don’t worry.
We apologised to the aborigines, we signed Kyoto, we’re visiting plenty of foreign nations and making lots of friends. We’ve said alcopops are bad as, bad as Belinda, all is OK and everybody loves Kevin, “I’m from Queensland, and I’m here to help”.
But it will all be OK, except if we had the man of steel back it would be, we would have drilling on the Barrier reef to relieve petrol prices, we would have more tax concessions to bring down house prices and we would have action on grocery prices.
Ummm, Rod. Have you been into the propanalol?
Rod, you’re definitely full of something tonight.
Rod are you channelling John McCain ?
Rod – credibly link any of those predictions of doom and gloom to the change in government and we might be able to have a conversation.
otherwise you’re just further evidence of the intellectual and economic credibility of the conservative side of politics in this country.
Grow up, open your eyes, look beyond your own driveway and discover the world of evidence based argument.
Rod: I think you need to get back on the medication!
Did anyone else hear Graeme Samuels on ABC Radio earlier today defending Fuel Watch, and arguing it would save motorists 20 cents a litre? I think we can safely assume he’ll get reappointed to another term as ACCC Chairman, so ironic when it was Captain Smirk who hired him in the first place.
I think another problem for the LNP is that the Rudd government are just finding their groove. They will get better at all the aspects of being govt and ministers and wedging them.
I suppose it OK to be sitting back siping your chardonnays and lattes and basking in the glow of being one with your koori brethren and hugging the trees that have been saved.
But people are hurting, “Rudd a Dudd” has had 7 months now, and all we have seen is pretty words and feel good announcements.
It is all well and good to disparage the opposition, but does it help, we see how bad Iemma is, but he would get back in, just because the opposition to Kevin is useless does not mean he is the saviour.
We may still be basking in the honeymoon, but bills have to paid, decisions have to be made.
Drill the reef, there is oil there!
I suppose it OK to be sitting back siping your chardonnays and lattes and basking in the glow of being one with your koori brethren and hugging the trees that have been saved.
Okay, I’ll say it, that is trolling, plain and simple.
It is possible Fuel Watch will save more than the 2c/lr average that has happened in WA for motorists willing to shop around. What’s more it will not cost anything in petrol to find out as people can look it up on the Internet. Plus long weekends should not be the normal price hike as service stations know that the costs are transperant.
I don’t know how many litres of fuel are sold everyday but the Oil Co.’s must stand to loose millions, and even perhaps billions each year because of Fuel Watch. This has to be the real reason why there is so much bitter oposition to it by MSM and the Opposition. Also why the “quick fixit” drop in excise is given the run by the tabloids. (Buggar the long term effect on inflation & interest rates!!)
They are also broadcast during TV Bulletins at night, as well as on Radio plus people can get email and SMS alerts.
Just Me
No, it is asking what has been done in the past 7 motnhs, what is happening.
As Mumble and others have said, doesn’t Rudd realise he was elected to govern, what is he doing, what has he done? He can’t run around like a headless chook, swarking look at me, look at me forever.
The reef is almost dead any way, and is worth more to us in oil dollars than tourism.
I see the name “Rod” and skip the posting. A waste of space and time.
Can someone point me to the last Australian government that got in with a mandate to lift taxes? The Libs and Samantha Maiden obviously think you must have one before you can increase taxes. What BS.
Rod,
You’re still thinking like a 1950s waster.
We don’t need more carbon based energy, and we haven’t really needed it to the extent to which we have become addicted to it for several decades.
For goodness sake catch up with reality. The message of environmental overload has been with us for several decades. Conventional commercial and economic theories have been discredited by advanced thinkers for even longer. The expansionist bubble will eventually burst: Much sooner than even they originally thought.
We must now adapt to the new paradigms forced upon us by the reality of our dependence of the proper functioning of natural bio-systems.
Risking their obliteration by further oil drilling in the few truly protected areas that remain is absolute lunacy and that supreme lunatic, G.W.Bush, is much of the same mind as yourself.
The legacy of the Exxon Valdiz remains a blot on the whole ideology of oil and its disreputable operators. The clean-up was a fraud, and the environment and the local population are still being seriously negatively impacted upon by residual oil.
It will not be as difficult nor as disadvantageous as the economic doomsayers would have us believe and, unlikely as it may seem to those with blinkered vision, there may well be considerable benefits to be gained from this enforced change from our habitually wasteful behavior.
Increased consumerism has not engendered an easier, nor necessarily happier lifestyle. Equally, decreased consumption does not necessarily equate to a less fulfilling existence.
It’s just a small matter of adjusting priorities.
So these policies are nothing are they Rod….. we elected a government that ratified Kyoto, given tax relief, apologised to the stolen generation, is planning to give a 50% rebate for childcare, given parents a rebate for the expenses of the school kids, is building medical centres to takes the pressure of hospitals, has increased funding for elective surgery also to take the stress off hospitals, wants to give kids their own computer in schools, will build trade centres in schools to help fast track trade education, has a $500m subsidy plan for hybrid cars, gave pensioners an extra $900.00 in the budget with the promise of more to come,has given tax cuts in the budget,signed a deal with states to try and fix the back of the envelope mess that Howard tried to fob off on to the states as his Murray Darling plan.
And how about the supposed man of steel. What about these FACTS….
All this pain is Howards fault.
All those ten rate rises were under the esteemed leadership of he who lost his seat, and he who whenever he bent over lit up the free world so they could exalt in the radiant glory of everything the Liberal Party stands for,the one and only John Winston Howard.
I’m one of those mortgagess that saw under Howard my mortgage rise by over $750.00 per month through no fault of my own.In the last 4 years of the Howard government I’ve paid out over $20,0000 more for my mortgage because he couldn’t handle the economy properly.
The clincher is Costello, who actually came out and said what a dudd Howard was as an economic manager, which most of the country knew because of the fantastic job he did of f*cking the country when he was treasurer and lied to the Australian people about the size of the deficit.
And I know that all those folks that got completely screwed and had their conditions stripped away under WorkChoices MKI and THEIR mortgages were raised ten times in a row by John Howard,Nelson,Costello,Downer,Bishop,Truss,Pyne,Hockey and Co’s fiscal incompetence, and now paying thousands and thousands more for their mortgages through no fault of their own are absolutely disgusted they voted these fine folks into government and allowed them enact a fair industrial relations policy.
F*ck what were we thinking. We let the previous government takes us to the brink of slavery and we threw it away, but you know, I’m sure at the next opportunity we are going to forgive Mr 13% and whats left of the radical right ,religous zealots, policy vacant sycophants, and pamphlet distributing idiots and elect them unopposed in every electorate.
Rod,
You can see that no one is listening.
Could I suggest some links so that people can inform themselves of the issues you talk about.
Most here, live a long way from the reef. We can all express interest, but without info, you are pisssing against the wind.
Cheers
People are beginning to realise that Howard was an awful PM that wasted opportunity, increased rates and tried to abuse the Australian people with WorkChoices. It rained money from China and globe for a decade and he simply wasted the opportunity – in a time of plenty still managing to reduced spending on education and health.
Not to mention other dirty stuff like Iraq, AWB, Manildra and destroying parliament and so forth.
Oh yeh and the fool that he was decided to threaten Australia’s relationship with the USA by dissing on the Democrats and Obama to help Bush – putting a personal friendship before the well being of the country he was elected to lead. But as Workchoices showed and, his earlier stated desire to have no minimum wage, Australian’s were the last thing on his mind.
Rudd has done for Australians in one day much more than Howard did in a decade and that was to get rid of Howard – saving us from the nightmare world his ideology.
Kina,
But he wasn’t Paul Keating or Labor after 13 years.
Re. Rod.
“There are none so blind as those that *will not* see.”
Joh Bjelke Petersen wanted to drill the reef too but even he could not pull it off despite the iron control he had in Qld. And this was in his hey day.
I think today you would have less than buckleys.
Putting at risk one of the natural wonders of the world just so we can keep guzzling petrol- unthinkable!!
If we used less fuel we would spend less money on it – a simple equation. And what’s more if there was less fuel used globally it would be cheaper – the free market’s supply & demand.
And Kina @ 543
While Howard probably did some good things his main “strengths” were his ability as a myth-maker with the help of right -wing think tanks and friendly media; to manipulate his party and the Australian people; and to fake sincerity. We were very fortunate to get rid of him when we did.
Miscellaneous observations:
1. Thanks to those that mentioned Q & A. As a soon-to-return expat, I hadn’t even realized this show existed. I reckon it has its good moments (comedians’ contributions not among them, by the way), especially last month’s discussion about Camden’s rejection of a Muslim school, that showed the detractors as every bit of the hate-filled basket-cases that we had suspected them to be.
2. Even with only the benefit of audio of yesterday’s QT (by podcast), it seemed to me that Rudd was happy to be asked repeatedly about the inflation forecasts, and the Opposition were foolish to indulge him. I disagree with the media analysis that Rudd was under pressure or that he should have conceded his minor error and killed the issue. Every time the question was asked was yet another opportunity for Rudd/Swan to use up time without straining the brain. Lazy but effective strategy from the Government, dumb tactics from Nelson/Turnbull.
3. Of Senate QT (yes, I know, yawn) – high marks to Penny Wong on her performance, but Nick Sherry doesn’t make the grade in my view, he never seems to get his answer completed before time expires.
I got the imipression (from radio grabs) that Rudd deliberately let the ‘interest rate mistake’ run because it suited his agenda to do so.
Which made me wonder if he made a ‘mistake’ in the first place….if, for example, you had polling showing that people thought inflation was going to continue to rise over the next year, it was fairly effective way of getting the message out there that the figures are expected to stabilise.
Regardless, it was hard to conclude anything else than that he was thoroughly enjoying baiting Turnbull.
Meng Tan there is nothing wrong with Senator Sherry’s performance in question time and he is a far better ‘performer’ than Senator Conroy.
Q&A seems to be another Fox News style slanging match. Cheap debating points, schoolboy rudeness from the likes of Pyne, always habitually interjecting. Pointless presence of comedians (remember Warren Brown on [i]Difference Of Opinion[/i]?), cheer squads gawking and carousing.
I actually thought Kernot was useful, in that contrary way of hers. She’s fairly frank and doesn’t seem to be too afraid of throwing the odd hand grenade (but you can see why she never made it in the Labor Party).
Panel shows will always descend into chaos as panellists decide they’re not going to let other panellists get away with what they just said, no matter how inconsequential. Ultimately nothing of any worth is put out, just stupid gotchas and irrelevant smartass bickering. There are always too many questions to be answered in the time available. More theatre than informative TV.
Hmmm… sounds like Question Time.
While Rome burns and the Murray-Darling dries up the Libs plough on, trying to prove Labor are not the sort of chaps we want on the government benches. They’re fighting a war that was decided last November. The voters aren’t going to change their minds because one of Rudd’s staffers’ staffers may or may not have rung up someone in NSW about a dinner turned nasty in Gosford. Or because Rudd’s memory played tricks on him and he got the inflation forecast wrong. OR over some arcane point of order made by Avuncular Joe that somehow “proves” Labor don’t know how to run a Parliamentary session.
Both QT and Q&A are in essence the same thing: skirmishes on the periphery of the main game, bloodletting for the sake of it while the nation wanders away, shaking their heads at the inanity. If it wasn’t for the likes of the trivializers and navel gazers like Annabel Crabbe and Shanahan, perched in the Gallery, poring over the irrelevancies looking for juicy gaffes to leverage into “failures of judgement”, like ibises at the tip pecking at food scraps, maybe something useful could be achieved.
Both sides are at fault. There are just as many young bloods on Labor’s side ready to have a go, to try and count coup for the fun of it as there are in the Libs. Albanese sometimes seems to be barely keeping himself from jumping over the table and throttling Hockey. I’ve basically given up watching any of it. It’s too frustrating, too much time wasted on trivia and testosterone, getting us nowhere.
No wonder the public is in an almost permanent state of indifference.
this will be of interest to the South Aussies in here.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23892766-5013945,00.html
I reckon the Liberals should take the policy of “Drill the Barrier Reef” to the next election!
Rod – in addition to what has already been said about drilling the GB reef, what oil company is going to spend billions doing it to then flog the oil at less than market rates?
The war crim in the Whitehouse has just announced something similar for the U.S. with drilling in the Alaska wildlife refuge and in mainland coastal waters. But the best estimates suggest these areas combined only hold enough oil to meet America’s needs for about 2 years at current consumption. Plus, even if Congress approved the idea, which, thankfully, it won’t, it’ll be at least 10 years before the first drop sees daylight.
judy barnes @ 552 – I’m not surprised and I bet it’s not on the front page of today’s Advertiser (or probably any other).
More brilliant Liberal economic management.
Brisbane City Council (their highest office in the land) hikes council rates by up to 300%.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/unit-owners-protest-300-rates-hike/2008/06/19/1213770814122.html
Not suprised either. What is suprising from a Vic perspective is that type of salaries being contested in the pay dispute: $350,000+. We are not talking about struggling junior doctors here
Hugely exciting news that the redistribution of NT’s two seats has proposed………
No change whatsoever.
LTEP: I’ll make sure I listen for Senator Conroy next time I listen to Senate QT (probably the next time I have trouble sleeping!)
1.Obama, his gay accuser and the lawyer in a kilt
2.Seventeen schoolgirls pregnant after making baby pact
3.CBD chaos as Apple Store opens
4.Australia pips US as world’s fattest nation
5.Stabbed with a screwdriver
6.Court overturns father’s grounding of 12-year-old
7.Owner of Sydney Kings faces arrest
8.Bride’s body on seabed a case of blue murder
9.Jury shows no mercy
10.Italian job for Kewell as Roma swoop
The current top 10 news items/headlines at the SMH.
Quality reporting?
On the topic of “hugely exciting news” (NOT!)…
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/downer-decision-imminent/2008/06/19/1213770827398.html
I’m already on the edge of my seat, and I’ll be staying here for the next 2 weeks.
*yawn*
Sorry to switch focus, but whatever happened to the re-count in McEwen? Any chance of a by-election?
Sondeo-541, WOW impressive!!!!
this is so hypocritical i had trouble taking it in at first, at least it gave me a good laugh to start off the day.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23887160-5013871,00.html
judy every opposition complains about the speaker. Howard promised an independent speaker before he got in then reneged. Dont think Rudd did but I’m surely Beazley had in the past.
Wow, Peter Brent at Mumble puts it into perspective.
http://www.mumble.com.au/
Thanks for the heads up John of Melbourne, was quite an eye opener wasn’t it
Kakuru @ 562
I was wondering about that as well
562 and 568
The court case finished on Wednesday. The judge indicated he would give his decision within the next two weeks. See Landeryou’s blog
http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-06-17T12%3A28%3A00%2B10%3A00&max-results=12
and this:
http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/60016#
Mayo 554
You make a good point about the cost of oil. The point of peak oil theory is not that we have run out of oil, but that we have used up more than half of it (the easy to get half), and that remaining discoveries will generally be smaller and more expensive to extract. For example, the recent large offshore Brazilian discoveeries are 10 to 30 billion barrels (at most 1 years supply) but are in 6000 to 8000 feet of water. That is at the current limits of drilling technology. So cheap oil is gone. And conventional production will not rise above current limits.
In this regard, the recent announcement of offshore exploration areas around australia is rational in maintaining our current supply for a few decades, but unless we are exceptionally lucky it won’t increase our supply. Public transport anyone? As for ABARE’s prediction that oil will now drop back to $80US a barrel, I think they need to read a few books on the economics of scarcity
Possum Comitatus (whose perspectives and opinions are very warmly received on this noticeboard) suggested @ 458 that in comparing the (LNP) opposition post the November 2007 election to the (ALP) opposition post the March 1996 election, the ALP was ‘depressed’ but ‘not dysfunctional’. The inference is that the present opposition is not only ‘dysfunctional’ but also ‘clueless’ and/or ‘hopeless’ at least some of the time and maybe even most of the time, although this is not clear (cf. Post 447).
He who adopts a marsupial pseudonym, is a clever gentleman. He certainly writes well, seems to know a lot about economics and a bit about psephology, and is very adept at marshalling published information and then using graphs and flow charts to substantiate his (tolerably clear) points of view.
When I read Peter Brent’s June 20 entry “Brendan Nelson’s Newspoll support in perspective” on the Mumble website, I think it is fair to say that Possum’s perspective on the present opposition must be taken very seriously. It will now be most interesting to see where the ALP/LNP 2PP vote is after the next Federal Budget. Around May 2009 will be a similar point in the electoral cycle to that during the first term of the previous government when Beazley Labor overtook the Coalition on Newspoll’s published 2PP voting intentions. Assume (as many do, even though it is a dangerous practice) that the LNP opposition continues to languish in the 2PP opinion polls published at about that time, and I am sure that the ‘dysfunctional’ analysis of the opposition will be canvassed in much wider circles (yes folks, the MSM), and also that Possum will be lauded (certainly here) for some astute ‘crystal ball’ gazing.
New boundaries out for NT House of Reps seats.
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/
As expected, the new boundaries are the old boundaries.
Forget about the NT! Let’s re-draw the boundaries for the ACT, and give it a third seat! Bring back Namadgi, I say!!
Michelle Grattan is a fair and reasonable political journalist IMHO but her idea of ignoring the polls and suggesting the honeymoon is really over (you can’t trust those bloody polls, even her own paper’s) is novel.
She uses the line “Rudd runs the risk ..” in relation to his overseas travel and how the punters will view it. Why do they assume the punters take any notice when they have clearly not shown any tendency of doing so up to now?
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/how-is-rudd-travelling-20080619-2tjf.html
BenC
Thanks
560
fred
In fairness, fred, those top ten are the most viewed, ie most popular stories, as decided by readers. They are not the rankings of news worthiness by the SMH editors.
Bit of a difference.
Michelle Gratten is correct, at least in one regard: the honeymoon for Rudd is over.
Possum’s most recent graphs and analysis, mentioned in these comments elsewhere, show that. It is clear that over the last three months or so Labor has come down from the clouds in regard to voting intentions. Currently, the 2pp is about where it was for most of the 12 months prior to the last election; the Labor primary vote is just a tick more than the election result.
http://tasmanianpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/06/leave-bendan-alone.html
But I am able to make these assertions because I’ve got a series of over 30 datum points. Ms Gratten errs in running a line that voters adjust their voting intentions constantly in reaction to the political story of the day, and that these intentions can be read in the weekly opinion polls. I don’t see any evidence that this is the case. That is why Denis Shanahan and other get themselves in so much trouble trying to relate poll movements to day-to-day political events.
Political events can move polls in one hit, but it needs to be a seismic event. A change in leader (eg. when Latham or Rudd took over) will often do it.
But outside that, the general voting public is generally asleep on politics. I like the University of Queensland’s Eric Louw’s view that politics is a “game of impression management”. Politicians must grab the attention of potential voters, hold their attention, and deliver information – largely to “passive citizens” who are “frequently only marginally interested in politics”. He calls these voters “political outsiders”:
“Political outsiders are the citizens/electorate who are passive consumers of the myths, hype and images disseminated by the mass media. They consume what semi-insiders (such as journalists) and insiders (such as spin-doctors) construct and disseminate to them. The majority of citizens appear content to be passive outsiders – their participation in the political process being limited to voting occasionally for those candidates pre-selected and pre-packaged by political parties.”
So it is “political outsiders” who get polled. They gain their impressions in a diffused way over time.
Dr Louw: http://www.uq.edu.au/journ-comm/index.html?page=5525&pid=
His latest book (from where the quotes above come): http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&id=Dq2OkY-nlbkC&dq=Louw+media&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=qKMP5pTLpr&sig=6×0YUR_fJnLdcUx2KM1RRiYoQn0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
This is why I disagree so strongly with the concept of compulsory voting: Those who do not take an active interest in politics should be permitted to remain passive when it comes to the election of a government.
Compulsory enrollment should remain, however, and some minimum percentage of the possible votes should be a requirement for any candidate to be elected. That would *really* make them work for their tickets.
Kevin 07 now Kevin 737, lol
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23892595-5007132,00.html
Michelle Grattan must be influenced to a degree by the Press Gallery – it would be hard not to be. But I would view the honeymoon being over, not on the basis of the polls so much, but that the first phase of pleasure is over. This came with the MSM targetting Rudd and the budget being presented, and some percieved flaws in him. I don’t think they really were flaws as I reckon that it was really part of his overall strategy to treat fuel watch the way he did and also this applies to the Neal case.
Every trivia was given undue importance and therefore the overall picture was distorted by the Press. But as indicated above most people are passivewhen it come to politics.Their views are formed from impressions in the tabloid press(unfortunately).
But she is correct in that the “marriage” is passing from the honeymoon stage to the period of consolidation. That is probably why she says she doesn’t know how Rudd is travelling as the relationship is in a transitional phase.
But I would go further and suggest that the “marriage” is showing signs of being in the mature stage. This is not good news for the Coalition if correct!
Probably next month the situation will be clearer.
With the number of advisers, journos and other parasites ever on the increase he’ll need an A 380 soon.
JoM, isn’t it great to see so many Asian countries wanting a visit from our new PM. It’s the clearest indication you can get of how much the deputy dawg diplomacy of the last lot held us back on the world stage.
579 John – your trivial pursuit John.
Rolly, 578.
It could also be argued that compulsory voting forces candidates to take account of a far broader and hence more representative range of views in the community, than only those of the actively interested, who are not necessarily representative of the community as a whole, and that this serves the interest of good government much better the kind of skewed political representation that can (and probably does) result from voluntary voting.
Compulsory voting also means that candidates have to spend less resources on getting people out to vote, so their resources that can then be better spent on policy debates.
Furthermore, just because it is compulsory to turn up and put a piece of paper in a box, does not mean you literally have to make a vote, you can easily put an unmarked ballot paper in the box if you do not wish to participate in the decision.
And really, having to turn up to a local polling booth once every 18 months or so is hardly an onerous imposition on your time, especially considering it is to elect your government, a matter of some consequence.
Federal Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson says he supports the Prime Minister’s decision to attend the Beijing Olympics in August.
The Greens have criticised Kevin Rudd for accepting an invitation to attend the Opening Ceremony and some sporting events.
They say Mr Rudd should be making a stand against China’s treatment of Tibet.
But Dr Nelson says Mr Rudd should go to the games.
“I have for several months said that I think Mr Rudd as the Prime Minister of Australia should attend the Olympics,” he said.
“I think our sportsmen and women and their families expect to see their Prime Minister at the Olympic Games and I certainly won’t be joining in any criticism in Mr Rudd going to the Olympics.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/20/2280933.htm?section=justin
I guess that just killed this as an issue?
Former Lib forms WA Branch of Family First.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/sullivans-family-first-to-take-on-liberals-20080620-2tzk.html
If Nelson won’t criticise Rudd for going to the olympics, then expect Bob Brown to get 5 minutes of oxygen from the media, so he can do the criticising.
5 minutes? Try 15 seconds.
I share GB’s disappointment with Grattan’s piece. Hard to understand why, when she didnt buy into the hysteria a few weeks ago, why she is using the honeymoon is over myth now. Worth an email. Does anyone have an address??
Bob Brown has already had his 5 minutes- heard him last night on ABC radio, wasted no time getting out there, talking about his disappointment and that somehow this goes against what Rudd said about Tibet. No-one listening anyway
Soundbites and stunts wont save economy: Peter Lewis.
No, this is not a MSM attack on Rudd, but a go at the Opposition! How nice for a change. An excerpt:
“This is not the time for cheap populism from the Coalition, which is seeking to gain some short-term advantage by blocking Budget measures in the Senate.
By trying to attack the Rudd Government from the “Left”, the Coalition undermines the very thing that underpinned its political success for nearly 12 years – responsible economic management”
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23893529-5007146,00.html
I think you mean Steve Lewis.
How many times has the MSM claimed “the honeymoon is over”, only to be proved wrong by subsequent polls? The media want a contest, if they can’t get a genuine one out of the Libs, they’ll manufacture a supposed loss in Labor’s popularity.
Actually Andrew #589 she did join in
http://www.theage.com.au/national/cabinet-leak-leaves-rudd-petrol-strategy-in-tatters-20080528-2j5b.html
I think she has a point that the government is in a consolidating phase but I agree the article was overall disappointing for her, especially her bit on the importance of the lead in economic management (did Labor win without it or what?) and her laughable assertion that Costello would make it better (!).
584, Just Me,
The problem is that the disinterested voter is too easily swayed by the rantings of the self interested opinions of the political pundits who frequent the media.
A lie, oft repeated, becomes the accepted truth.
If individuals do not give heed to the processes of government and politics and base their judgments solely on the rumour and innuendo that they hear floating around in the ether, then, perhaps, it is better that they effectively disenfranchise themselves.
I’m afraid that listening to the opinions of your “average mug punter” before the last election gave me little hope that democracy, as *we* know it, will ever produce more than weak, ineffectual governments blown hither and thither on the oceans of ignorance and mis/disinformation.
The U.S.of A is a good example of this.
Did Roy Morgan break his abacus?
#584
I agree 100%. In the United States, voluntary voting means that elections are often hijacked by highly motivated voting blocs. One such bloc (the Religious Right) delivered George W. Bush two presidential elections. That in itself is a reason why compulsory voting is healthy.
Rolly 595
The problem is that the disinterested voter is too easily swayed by the rantings of the self interested opinions of the political pundits who frequent the media.
Not obviously. The political pundits were largely backing the Coalition last election (or at least not backing Labor), yet the electorate clearly chose Labor (and are still strongly supporting them).
The U.S.of A is a good example of this.
The USA has voluntary voting, so clearly that does not solve the problem. Indeed, I would argue it makes it worse.
585
ruawake Says:
Federal Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson says he supports the Prime Minister’s decision to attend the Beijing Olympics in August.
He’s probably going too, or else he’s sucking up to Kev hoping to get one of his free tickets lol.
Vera spot on. The only question is will he be going as opposition leader or shadow foreign affairs minister.
#595
Rolly… in the U.S. of A. voting is not compulsory. Make up your mind.
“If individuals do not give heed to the processes of government and politics and base their judgments solely on the rumour and innuendo that they hear floating around in the ether, then, perhaps, it is better that they effectively disenfranchise themselves.”
But they don’t. Not in the U.S., anyway. These ignorant voters are whipped into a frenzy by rumour and innuendo, and are then led by the nose by the leaders of the Religious Right. These “average mug punter”s turn up ‘en masse’ on election day, even though they don’t have to. As I said, you can thank these God-n’-guns American voters (who couldn’t find Canada on a map, never mind Iraq) for giving George W Bush two terms.
If voting was compulsory in America, the Democrats would win hands-down every time. With voluntary voting, African-American and Hispanic voters stay away from elections in droves – as do overworked/underpaid voters of all description.
PS at 594, thanks for pointing that out, I thought Grattan had stayed out of the fray, she seemed to also have a more balanced piece at the time. This is a terrific opportunity for a journalist to stand out from the crowd and be rational and sensible (heck even Shameaham did better than Grattan this week!!), but I guess it wont be her. Guess they need to have a contest or drama to sell papers
Lewis is spot on though, the opposition dont have a coherent message or strategy. Now, Rudd had it easier as he was opposing a 11 year old rather than 6 month old government, but he was so much better and choosing his battles, and giving a clear and coherent narrative
It also seems that, whereas in the past the MSM Liberal cheer squad followed Howard’s lead, Nelson is in fact following their lead
Brendan Nelson or anyone left in the Coalition after the last election can read this and understand why people are cynical about their sudden and newfound “caring” for the disadvantaged, families and those on low and middle incomes.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23894517-12377,00.html
If you were put on an AWA before the backflip commonly know as the “safetynet” and when coupled with ten rate rises, high fuel, high food costs etc….it’s no wonder people voted them out.
They can feign outrage about fuel and food and the cost of living all they like in the parliament and the press, but when you look their policies and what they tried to do to the Australian public it shows what hypocrites they are.
@ 601 Kakuru,
Point taken
Though it was really the mis/disinformation that I really meant to highlight in referring to the USA.
The good thing is, though, that the Australian public saw through the Howard government in the end, despite all the spin, cover up and attacking the messenger, with their MSM cheersquad in tow. It’s going to take a long, long time for them to trust the coalition again.
Sondeo wrote :
“They can feign outrage about fuel and food and the cost of living all they like in the parliament and the press, but when you look their policies and what they tried to do to the Australian public it shows what hypocrites they are.”
The public ARE awake to their tricks and what the libs tried to do with worst choices is going to haunt them for years to come.
The libs better get used to eating humble pie because there is lots more coming their way.
Kakuru @ 561 -
The only involvement Lord Lunchalot should have with the UN is as a prisoner in the dock of its ICC war crimes tribunal.
And I’m not impressed that the taxpayers are picking up the tab for his job interview, either! I had thought of writing my MP to demand a costing so I can work out how much to deduct from my next tax return, but I’d just be out of pocket another 50 cents. f#@#$%!
.
Gary Bruce @ 574 – I see Grattan gives the ‘Rudd is overworking his staff’ nonsense another run. Many Howard staffers were required to be at their desks by 4.30 every morning, and quite a few of them were still there late at night.
I saw a thing on Mal “tough” Brough and the NT intervention. He said the PS worked “day and night” to get the intervention happening.
Its what they do.
It seems some of the political journalists really want to see Costello as opposition leader. Hell, so do I but not for the the same reasons. If anything would ensure a Labor victory next election that would be it. What makes these journalists think Costello is popular with Joe Public?
Costello had the leadership on a plate after the election – he chose not to take it. Why would he want it now?
The only thing that is of interest regarding Tip is his book – he will defend his legacy and knife JWH thats a given.
But who else will he shaft?
Gary Bruce @ 611 – Caught a bit of yesterday’s HoR QT which included a couple of shots of Cossie, whom I haven’t seen for months. Maybe the late hour was affecting my eyesight, but he didn’t look at all well.
MayoFeral #613
Perhaps it is because he feels exposed, knowing that the parlous state of the economy today is the cumulative result of he, the immediately-preceding Treasurer, who held the post for almost 12 years until late last year.
Realising that Labor will be quick and consistent in highlighting this would no doubt be enough to take the spring from anyone’s step.
612 ruawake
Surely he’s going to pot Aaahlexaander after being left out of the loop during APEC?
Surely the threat of Petes’ book must be driving the member for Mayo’s job search?
Oh Joe you’re not still defending Workchoices are you? Sounds like it.
http://news.theage.com.au/national/howard-govt-hid-work-choices-data-govt-20080620-2u10.html
I found this article by Alan Ramsey (2004) and his take on media bias.
Too busy posing questions to listen – Alan Ramsey – http://www.smh.com.au:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/09/1089000349258.html
Fed up with this crap and it’s about time the journos had dirt files on them – starters Milne!
Rx @ 614 -
knowing that the parlous state of the economy today is the cumulative result of he, the immediately-preceding Treasurer,
I doubt he gives (or gave!) a toss about the state of the economy, except maybe that his own economic circumstances have become ‘parlous’ on a backbenchers pay.
sorry about that, link is second one – Too busy posing questions to listen – Alan Ramsey – http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/09/1089000349258.html
Tried the next number in the polling series to get the morgan for this week and got this as the headline:
‘Australians are increasingly concerned that Prime Minister Rudd is turning into some sort of maniacal robotic self-deprecating and medicating automaton.’
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4302/
Can’t wait to see the poll that supports this!
maniacal
robotic
self-deprecating and
medicating automaton.
That is going to be an interesting poll
Do you think Kevin Rudd is:
1. maniacal
2. robotic
3. self-deprecating
4. medicating
5. automaton
6. cant say, all of the above
Something in the coffee at morgans now days.
Was just about to post re the Morgan headline.
What’s the bet he’s figured out people try to “look ahead” for his polls, and is having some fun with the headline?
Hell, it’s what I’d do. I hope that’s what he’s doing – if not… I’m not even sure what the right words are, if that’s not what he’s doing. Something tragic.
Sorry i am having a senior moment. Can anybody explain to me what MSM means
620 Dave
pure genius mate!
Those pesky young lib hackers at it again?
Morgan might have stopped doing TPP polls because they weren’t resulting in what he wanted (end of honeymoon)
So now he lists half a dozen nasty adjectives and asks the punter which one is closest to Kev ?
What a sad old shit!
Big headline in the online Oz : “Captain Chaos – Inside Rudd’s Office”.
And all it is is an advertisement for an article in tomorrow’s edition!
What an eclectic assortment of tools!
MSM = main stream media, Goanna.
Or, Mad Shanahan’s Musings.
And here is the WA Family first website.
http://wafamilyfirst.com/index.php
And interesting to note that former One Nation MP John Fisher was at the launch, along with the former Member for Kalgoorlie.
Who is of course Graeme Campbell.
Re: that Morgan headline.
You see a lot of strange stuff in polling, but I think we can all now safely say that we’ve seen it all.
They’re going to make referendums binding on all politicians!
Wow. How are thet going to do that? Change the WA Constitution to make one parliament’s decision endure for eternity, binding all others? Don’t think that’s possible somehow.
I know, once they get in, they won’t hold any referendums.
How simplistic, self righteous and inane can you get?. Dan Sullivan is a vindictive, bitter opportunist who has demonstrated that no act of political chicanery is beneath him.
Much as I dislike Omodei and what he stood for, I give him credit for having the courage to stand against Buswell as an independent, not grab onto the coat tails of a bunch of zealous religious hipocrites with their own neocon agendas.for the sake of a free ride.
Parliamentary Spokesman indeed!
632 Possum
Is this the end of the Morgan honeymoon?
Sounds like it’s the end of the bottle
I predict John Cummins and the IGA will be bankrolling this little charade.
635
liquid or pills?
@635 Possum Comitatus says:
Jesus, what can ya say!
GOAL!
Start spamming the WA Family First Youtube page.
http://www.youtube.com/wafamilyfirst
635
Possum Comitatus Says:
Sounds like it’s the end of the bottle
He he he.
hahaha @ the morgan headline.
Has the morgan office gone out for a few too many friday night drinks?
@635
Hee! Hee!
Not very PC, PC!
The Queensland Liberals are back to their best helping out those who lost at the Federal election.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/dumped-mp-gifted-with-64k-airport-board-role/2008/06/20/1213770898010.html
The Queensland Liberals are even better when the knives come out for the latest leader to get cut down. This time it is Springborg, the Queensland Opposition Leader, in their sights.
http://ambit-gambit.nationalforum.com.au/archives/003167.html
#620 ready to come clean yet?
I can’t help but notice that WA Family First are based in Serpentine. Who is the sinner prepared to cast the first apple?
The Netball association in Sale still no nearer to getting their $5Million. Looks like they have two options. Wonder if they will all vote National to ensure that they don’t get a cent.
http://sale.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/general/netballers-plea/790265.aspx
Antony,
I note that former One Nation WA MP’s Paddy Embery, Frank Hough, and former ALP then Member For Kalgoorlie were at today’s launch, along with Entertainer, former Perth City Coucillor and Mayoral Hopeful Max Kay.
It seems it will be a One Nation Front.
#647. You could buy all of Sale for $5 mill.
Umm, i was telling a joke. Not a good one I admit.
I notice they’re opposed to shopping hours de-regulation.
At the 2005 election, the referendum to allow extended shopping hours was defeated. The only areas that voted yes to extended shopping hours were remote electorates with large indigenous populations, who probably voted yes in the hope they’d finally get some shops.
@650, Anthony,
I thought your quip was rather witty
650
Antony Green
Antony, I got it and I’m sure others did as well. It was a goodie but maybe too subtle for some.
How is Family First going to manage to cap rates in urban areas at or below inflation levels? Queensland councils claim they need 10% increases just to keep up with rising costs at present.
Are Family First saying that local government is not a legitimate third level of government as far as they are concerned and unable to make decisions on how to rate citizens for services provided?
Rate capping has applied in NSW for more than two decades and it has slowly undermined the financial strength of local government. It’s one of the reaons Sydney has such crappy roads and why they charge high fees for development applications. And have poor community facilites, though I think the existence of powerful registered clubs in NSW fed by rivers of poker machine gold has seen clubs take on providing a variety of public services.
It always amuses me when the NSW clubs scream about how community services will be cut back if the government increases taxes on poker machines. Oddly, I haven’t noticed the crying lack of social services in other states that by that logic must come about because they don’t have giant registered clubs with access to vast numbers of poker machines.
The interesting thing this week in Queensland has been councils bringing down their budgets. Whether newly amalgamated or not most are setting rates increases at about the 10% level.
If roads are going to be maintained, parks, gardens and swimming pools maintained this would seem to be the amount needed to allow councils to cope with the services needed to support the growth many councils are experiencing.
It would be interesting to see what services would be slashed if Family First are to pursue a scorched earth theory on rate increases.
By the look of this article NSW rates are not much less than Queensland either.
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/06/20/12698_gold-coast-news.html
Poker machines are just a way of robbing the poor to assist in the reduction in top marginal tax rates.
A “Bread and Circuses” approach.
It works well.
A whole article in the Oz about how Rudd kept two public sevants waiting!
And that’s intended to lessen our opinion of him?
Hell, most of us will be grateful to Rudd for extracting some revenge on our behalf.
Seriously, though the public service have to have it spelled out to them that their loyalty is owed to the Government of the day, not to those who they would prefer to be in Goverment.
If they can’t handle that, they should be encouraged to give their notice or should be fired.
Rudd does not need a fifth column from within, and should have no compunction in disposing of those who can’t or won’t accept the reality of the election result.
Still no morgan poll?
They all pass out after writing the headline….
Galaxy Poll in the Curious Snail has Queensland Labor down significantly. Reminiscent of the poll just before the last Queensland election where the Curious Snail pulled a Galaxy Poll out of it’s orifice which showed the ALP losing the last election to Springborg. Steve Lewis seems to be trying to out Dennis Sham – I – am with his usual pro Pineapple Party cheering.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23896213-952,00.html
Pity Lewis didn’t explain what this means in the light of his glowing Pro Pineapple Party cheering.
“Only 8 per cent were less likely to vote for the merged party while 68 per cent signalled the union would make no difference.”
Apologies to Steve Lewis, it was Steve Wardill who gave us this masterpiece.
From the OO article:
Well, they did leak, didn’t they?
More from Rupert’s Rags, this time the DT.
In the old days they used to say, “Don’t call us. We’ll call you.”
These Great Australians, Captains all of our selfless corporations who exist only to serve the poor and the disadvantaged, to wit, several Melbourne bankers, a mining magnate (off-shore) and a “senior industrialist”, are a little coy about releasing their names for publication.
Not for them the easy, populist way of the personal web site, the giddy press release or the on-the-record interview to shout their identities and their views to the Nation. They would rather remain behind the scenes, doing their Great Work, urging Statesmen Of The People to do something, anything, except come and work for them, at least in a proper job. No, they’d rather Peter stays right where he is… and work for them from there.
So Costello, not being offered the kind of free ride he loves by even his mates in Big Business, now has to do what he has never had the guts to do before: win the Liberal leadership in his own right. Yeah. Right. Pete could have been leader after the election, but then he would have still had to fight Rudd. Don’t our Business Dukes and Earls realise Pete is only up for it when it’s handed to him on a platter?
No wonder they didn’t give him a job.
I couldn’t believe this rubbish when I heard it!
If they don’t want to employ him why would they want him to lead the Fiberals?
Anyone who believes that Galaxy Poll has rocks in their head. It just doesn’t ring true.
We should be consistent about our view of polls, and when they favour the conservatives, it doesnt make them bad or wrong. Given the MOE of single polls, it’s really the trend in all polls that has to be watched
A change of that magnitude when there really has not been an issue of disastrous proportions to talk about makes me suspicious. The Libs and Nats up there have been going through contortions not Labor. As I said it doesn’t ring true.
665 – There is no proof that it was senior public servants. It could have been someone down the food chain or a cabinet member or member of their staff.
GB youre right that a nine-point shift from 61-39 to 52-48 is hard to believe, my point was that we shouldnt do a Glen a dismiss the poll because we dont like the results.
Might be a reaction to petrol prices.
Andrew, I agree with you on that and I don’t normally dismiss polls so readily but I do so in this case for the, what I think are valid, reasons given ealier. I will add one thing too and that is that Galaxy IMHO run an agenda for the conservatives. I’ve seen it in many elections, including last federal election. At some stage ,not long before any election the conservatives, who have been a mile behind, have made this “miraculous recovery” according to Galaxy. Not a long time before the last state election here in Victoria Galaxy managed to have the Libs near level with Labor. We know how that election turned out.
So that’s my rationale for being sceptical about this poll. It’s there to give the conservatives heart.
GG, why isn’t any other poll picking up this reaction?
I love that stuff about Peter – you can just imagine the conversation: “Well, we’d really like to give you a gig, Peter, we’re just blown away by you, you’ve got a terrific record, but seriously, mate, we reckon the country needs you. Love to have you on board, but gees, when it’s a question of the greater good, we’ve all got to make sacrifices, you know how it is.”
Code for: “Well, we don’t want to p*** the guy off entirely, can’t tell him we wouldn’t touch him with a bargepoll (gees, I’d be watching my back the whole time and we don’t want our every little disagreement popping up in one of Milne’s columns), who knows what kind of influence he still has? Better let him down lightly.”
The attitude of the msm to the rudd government is imho put into context in the following articles :
Hostile approach to the media by john lyons
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23897344-28737,00.html
Anger builds around Kevin Rudd as chaos reigns at the top,
again by john lyons
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23898071-601,00.html
I don’t know if what lyons is complaining about is accurate or not. But it explains to me at least the general hostile attitute of the msm to the new government.
Gary,
I am only speculating and I ‘m not really close to Queensland issues. But, over the last four months the only top of mind issue that would upset the punters and cause a shift of this magnitude is petrol prices.
It could be a rogue and the methodology could be crap too.
But, as Andrew says, it would be wrong to discount it just because you don’t like the numbers.
dave, you beat me to it. It wouldn’t surprise me if that female journalist was Alison Carabine. She has just been scathing of this government in her reports on 3AW. Mitchell also referred to (without going into detail) some incident she’d experienced with Rudd’s minders.
Who is this John Lyons and why would he know so much?
“But, as Andrew says, it would be wrong to discount it just because you don’t like the numbers.” I think I’ve already enunciated my reasons clearly for questioning that poll and it’s not because I don’t like the numbers.
Gary
I think john lyons has been around a long time as a jurno. I recall when he used to be a reporter for 4 corners then think he went to channel 9 maybe 60 minutes.
I could be wrong, but I think he has a pretty good reputation over a long period. I do not think he is in the shanhanhanahan or poison dwarf mold.
Thanks dave, He might have a point then. I think any government has teething problems. They’ll sort this one out over time.
The Nine Network settled another long running legal dispute in February involving another Walkley winning story. Former Sunday reporter John Lyons won the 2001 Walkley for Broadcast Interviewing while it was subject to legal action from the NRMA’s Nick Whitlam. Gerald Stone, in his recent book on Channel Nine, said the interview contained “one of the worst examples of unfair reporting I have seen in my 25 years in television” and accused Lyons of either intentionally beating up the story or being “utterly inexperienced.”
ruawake
thats interesting…
either way I just hope Rudd sorts the situation with lachlan harris out pretty damn quick
Harris sounds like a ticking timebomb. They might need to arrange for his role not to include dealing with media. But if he treats the balance of power senators like that, the government is not going to get things done.
The public will only remain in love with Rudd until there is a lack of a viable alternative. A lot of what is being suggested smacks of arrogance which was one of the chief charges laid against Howard’s mob.
And I think we have hit the nail on the head….
Could it be the vitriolic responses in the MSM we have seen is a result of the relationship between the press gallery journos souring with Rudds media management team?
ACA claims to have a story to “bring down” Neal
Where exactly are they going to bring her down from (other than her inflated ego)? She is a back bencher (and a “back” backbencher too; not pretty enough for the cameras). The ALP could cut her lose but she doesn’t strike me as a woman who likes to be to spurned.
Some one has to tell Rudd to change his ways. You can’t micromanage a bloody country!
Why all the bad press by the jurnos?
When it is apparent that Rudd is wanting to be more open and approachable to the public,wanting and looking for new ideas from people.
It seems that the Canberra press have been given the shaft and why not as reporters such as Kerry-Anne Walsh goes looking for dirt re his child hood eviction and whether his family spent 1night or 2 weeks sleeping in a car.
Harris is actually Rudd’s chief of staff. Sounds like he has watch too many episodes of the westwing. For a team which is all about the spin they don’t seem to all that good at it.
You can understand Rudd’s minders reacting the way they have. Rudd copped an unfair pasting from the press last year and it has continued in government. Trouble is it helps nobody for this to continue and someone has to relent. The government needs to “show the way” and cultivate a good working relationship with the press, or at least certain sections. Howard made it into an art form, Labor needs to do the same.
I must admit though having read 683 ruawake I’m not as confident about the veracity of the story by John Lyons as I was earlier.
“there are increasing reports”
“senior officials describe”
“one angry public servant said”
“Senior officials were already angry”
“Chris Uhlmann – told Harris”
“Insiders say”
“One senior government staffer said”
All the hallmarks of a beat-up
693 ruawake – No substance is there? Why won’t anybody within talk? Chris Uhlmann, now there’s an unbiased view (LOL).
Lyons was up to his ears in the alleged Keating piggery scandal as well.
I think Harris was chastised for playing up at the Apology.
RE: the QLD Galaxy poll:
Is an 800 sample size accurate enough for a state poll?
The problem I have with Galaxy polls is that they always seem to give a boost to the Liberals/Nationals when other polls don’t.
Good to see that you have Rudd coloured glasses on. Pissing the media and public service off is reckless.
“All the hallmarks of a beat-up”
And what I liked was that most of the story – apart from the L’Estrange/Huston anecdote – related to the time before Rudd’s Prime Ministership. The Tony Burke took incident place “in the lead-up to last year’s election.”
Not content to attack Labor from the old Liberal stand-by of “they don’t know how to behave properly in the great halls of power”, usually applied to farting in front of the Queen (”Let’s pretend it was the horse, M’am.”), or manhandling her, getting lessons on the proper application of Standing Orders from Uncle Joe Hockey, or endless wailing about how Rudd has offended the Japanese, we now have the dictum applied to Rudd’s treatment of not only “senior public servants” (poor little dears), press gallery journalists (of course they wouldn’t be nasty back to him, would they Mr. Glenn “Rudd was drunk and disorderly” Mile, or Pies “Heiner” Akerman?) but his own party members! Oh dear, dear, Rudd can’t even be trusted to be nice to his closest colleagues! What are we to do?
This is another “torches and pitchforks” set-up by News Ltd. After reading a few of these, the gullible expect to open their CBD windows and see villagers marching down the streets in angry mobs, chanting blood-curdling slogans, determined to hunt down The Monster and drive a stake through its heart. Usually its one of News’s “Tax Revolt” scams, endless whingeing culminating in them quoting each other’s articles by the end of the week. This time Frankenstein has created a Rudd-Monster, lurching around the Parliamentary galleries, drunk with power, throwing his weight around and generally upsetting the frail and defenceless.
Ahem, excuse me… but this guy is the Prime Minister of Australia.” If anyone’s entitled to exercise a little of the argey-bargey around Parliament, it’s Rudd. He almost single-handedly brought Labor out of the wilderness, unseated the incumbent Prime Rodent in the process, relegated Costello, Abbott and Downer to Siberia in the back-benches where they play tiddly-winks with themselves daily, and has consistently, ever since he was elected leader, scored huge, unprecedented polling figures undreamt of by earlier occupants of his office. Not only that, but he has provided endless hours of entertainment for us bludgers by making fools of the likes of Shanahan, Milne, Grattan, La Trioli, Chris Uhlmann (did anyone think it passing strange that Uhlmann should be lecturing anyone on “rudeness”?), Akerman and that dickhead from Sky News (did I miss anyone?) over their endless – and wrong – declarations that the honeymoon, this time, is definitely and positively over.
There is nothing like a story that says, “Pssst… Rudd’s a maniac in private, but you’ll never see it because he hides it so well.” In other words, we can’t prove it. We give no evidence for it except unsourced anecdotes from disgruntled former Howard Huggers. But, believe us, it’s true.
What a self-serving bunch of total wankers and wankettes they truly are if this is the best they can dish up.
BSF
Can you provide one verifiable quote that the public service is pissed off? (Not just one pissed off public servant).
The media or rather some sections is pissed off because they no longer have the inside contacts that once sustained them.
We will see a new bunch of media insiders soon, thats how the game is played.
B.S., I don’t know if you are referring to me or not but what part of this statement by me earlier do you not understand?
“Trouble is it helps nobody for this to continue and someone has to relent. The government needs to “show the way” and cultivate a good working relationship with the press, or at least certain sections. Howard made it into an art form, Labor needs to do the same.”
As for the reporting of this I think there are questions to be asked.
There are questions about the motives of the paper concerned. There are questions about the journalist’s integrity (given past performances) and there are questions about the evidence provided in this article.
That doesn’t mean the government can’t and shouldn’t do better in this area. It can and should.
Sure, having the meeja onside could be a good thing, but how long do the naysayers want to persist? It seems like a pretty crap life to me. Just because the system was cultivated to be one particular way doesn’t necessarily mean it should continue. If Rudd’s office is ideologically opposed to daily meeja coverage I don’t see it relenting. They will have an end game in mind that results in cultural change either from the top down, the bottom up, or both at the same time. Sure they’ll make mistakes, but it’s not like there’s any evidence they’re not thinking…so far.
Food for thought:
Given the minimal people required to staff an online newsroom these days it wouldn’t be that hard to run a service out of Rudd’s office these days.
I reckon about 40 press releases a day spread out over the various departments ought to suffocate the politics departments of the Australian meeja.
I’m not saying it’s right – I’m just saying it’s possible.
As I’ve posed before though – I think this years polling goes a long way to proving that the general public is NOT listening to the meeja re politics, and it’s days as an advertising revenue draw card must surely be numbered, which means staff cuts are coming, and the current meeja behaviour supports this – they’re fighting a game of career musical chairs.
698 BB
I beleive your analysis passes the pub test of reasonablness.
Somewhere along the line there has been a disconnect of relevance in political reporting.
(perhaps too much journalistic teaching of Watergate???)
Earwax DOES NOT relate to one’s ability to govern a country, run a board etc…
If pushing staff hard meant you weren’t a good CEO, there would not be many CEO’s left.
Hard areses at the top employ shit kickers to enforce their law down the chain, and to take the fall if required – it’s a given.
Everyday people in everyday life know these things, but apparently journo’s do not.
It’s a pity John Lyon’s bitchy tirade dominates today’s WEEKEND AUSTRALIAN.
There are rather more balanced pieces from George Megalongenis and Imre Saulinski today, and an article on the NT Aboriginal intervention largely complimentary towards Rudd and Macklin.
I suspect most punters couldn’t give a stuff about a whinging public service and journalists! Once the tax cuts and other benefits start flowing into people’s pockets from July 1, this other nonsense won’t even register on the radar!
Rudd works his staff hard: so what? Do we expect him to do otherwise?
The media are good at going off in their own direction!
While we can take the piss out of the Governments position on Binge drinking, generally speaking the Federal Government is doing an okay job which is why it is a long way infront.
If I recall correctly at this stage of Howard’s first term one or two ministers had already resigned due to ministral standards.
With talk about the Media’s coverage of politics I put forward a little question! in Victoria what is the most common issues raised in letters to the Premier?
I will make it mulitable choose
A) 2am Lockout
B) North-South Pipeline
C) Decriminalisation of abortion
D) Desalination Plant
E) Petrol prices
Before you answer go and read today’s papers and I will return with the answer this time tomorrow!
Lyons seems to have a thing about the fact that the two “advisers” are 28. Has he not heard of the Age Descrimination Act 2004.
He implies that these two have done something wrong by not putting their age on their CVs.
Does he realise that an employer has no right to know an employees age? In fact if they decide to not employ someone because of age they are probably in breach of the Act.
Of course he is trying to imply that they are inexperienced because they are young – which again is skating on thin ice.
To make it a little harder I have added one possible answer
A) 2am Lockout
B) North-South Pipeline
C) Decriminalisation of abortion
D) Desalination Plant
E) Petrol prices
F) Myki Ticketing
704 I’m guessing C) Decriminalisation of abortion because they have the most powerful lobby group in numbers and funds.
Meanwhile, behind closed doors there are some reaol issues evolving that are getting just soooo much coverage:
http://business.watoday.com.au/bracing-for-the-new-lowcarb-economy-20080620-2u6o.html?page=-1
I just love the big carbon emitters seeking incentives….
How about this: “If you don’t produce something I want to buy for the same or lower price than your opposition then I won’t buy any of it?”
If a windfarm costs less than a carbon sequestration system then it’s a bit of a no-brainer. These threats that boards won’t make economically ration decisions on behalf or their shareholders and hold the Australian economy to ransom are laughable.
Go Penny.
Try A – 2am lockout.
There is another version of the Lyons story not linked to anywhere on the Australian’s main page.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23897351-28737,00.html
I wouldn’t get too upset. Most punters couldn’t give a stuff about whinging public servants and journos, they’ll be getting their tax cuts and family benefits from July 1, that’ll keep the mob content!
John Lyons is a well known Liberal hack!
Re: Me at 620
Just noticed that Morgan has changed their headline on the as yet unpublished page to a very boring ‘Rudd ALP Nelson LNP’. Still no poll though.
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4302/
I think Peter (at 622) was probably right and Roy was just having a dig and seeing if we picked up on it. It was a good for a laugh while it lasted – very Milnesque.
Well it depends on whether you judge politics from what will keep ‘the mob’ content. I’m still not convinced the me-too tax cuts are at all necessary and wonder what the money could’ve been used for instead. I’m quite happy to listen to ‘whinging’ public servants from time to time.
It’s funny how people’s tunes change when their party of choice wins government. If the Coalition had won Government again the same people would be whinging about the inflationary impact of the tax cuts and talking about how greedy people are for wanting them.
LTEP: If you’re struggling with a mortgage, high petrol prices and the increased cost of living, tax cuts will be very well received!
Yes trot out those party lines!
New thread up on Queensland Galaxy poll (keep it on topic please).
715 LTEP – Ok ,let’s do it your way. The voting public will hate these tax cuts. They’ll get nothing out of. They won’t even find them helpful. How could they be? They’ll only put extra money in their pockets. No help whatsoever. There, that makes sense now doesn’t it?
I didn’t say the public will hate the tax cuts. My point was that Government’s shouldn’t base policy decisions around what the public wants. Nor do I base my judgments on policy decisions on their popularity with the public.
LOL, just read the full article referenced by Ruawake at #710.
The headline is:
Captain Chaos and the workings of inner circle
Yeah, but who calls Rudd “Captain Chaos”?
Well, nobody, it seems. Lyons says early on in the article,
And we know who’ll make sure Rudd “earns” it, don’t we? Talk about a self-fulfilling promise. Cue: Shanahan, Milne, Akerman and Uhlmann (he of the famous “House Of Card” analogy, as in “Labor can’t win the election because they’re a house of cards.”).
Since when have these jerks been right about anything so far?
Two people he quotes at length, Uhlmann and Laurie Oakes have vastly different views on the Rudd Prime Ministerial office.
Uhlmann:
I see, and Chris Uhlmann wouldn’t be one of the chief urgers for playing politics over petrol pricing, would he?
Oakes:
The rest of the quotees are the same: half say it’s true. Half say it’s hogwash. Divided cleanly along political lines, I would say, too, from a list of those prepared to go on the record.
For the many who aren’t prepared to go on the record, Lyons has an excuse for their silence: they’re too afraid to speak out lest they be cut off at the knees. See? Fear reigns. Political journalists scared to speak out. Must be the first time in Western politics that that’s ever happened. What a bunch of woozes. Cut ‘em off at the head and do the job properly Kevin.
Clearly the old “Whitlam Government” ploy is being dusted off here again. Use the word “crisis” thirty seven times per paragraph and hope like hell some of it sticks. Rudd’s two 28 year old staffer are described as having the fate of the country in their hands. Oooo-Ahhh! Our lives and our nation are being run by a couple of Gen-Y-ers. Chaos! I tell you! Crisis!
Then there’s the criticism that Rudd keeps too many promises. Can youse all see it if he broke one? The same hacks narking him for keeping to his election committments would be sneering at him for being a naive idiot who’s foolish enough to make promises. I mean, did Howard ever stick to his committments? Nah. He was a pro.
All true, but now he’s gone boys and you’d better get used to it.
LTEP
You called them me-too tax cuts. If you read Swans reply to the 2007 budget I think you will find that these tax cuts follow the formula he espoused.
If you use terms like me-too you diminish your argument.
And, as if on cue: AAP reports “Huston kept waiting for hours”.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudd-kept-defence-chief-waiting-hours/2008/06/21/1214009142028.html
Once AAP have it, without a byline, everyone else can start quoting their own stories…
“Reposrts say…” etc.
Told you it was a beat-up.
Torches and pitchforks anyone?
705
Mexican Beemer Says:
June 21st, 2008 at 2:00 pm
And the number off letter writers depends on how well organized the lobby group is; we are talking about the catholic church here. The answer will no doubt be:
C) Decriminalisation of abortion
bb
just back from the “deep south” actually blue ribbon territory,attended a few rotary meetings etc.
one thing stuck all thhrough the various meetings was a palpable sense of things being done and peoples concerns listened to
Rudd and co are creating a groundswell that belies the wankers who criticise him
In the country after a decade of inaction, real progress is happening and was stagggered me was the bipartisan support at ground level,
If Nelson is to have any chance he must end the negativity line and come up with IDEAS that have substance and relevance,the hacks that are berating rudd are simply making the job of selling the fibs that much harder
“The unions will rule Labor”. Oh yeah, tell that to the ETU.
http://news.theage.com.au/national/qld-union-threatens-to-dump-labor-20080621-2uio.html
I hope you’re right, ruawake.
I also like this from the AAP story:
…which is a direct steal from the original Lyons story.
Get your stories straight fellas.
Is Rudd being kept in the dark about “half of what’s going on”, or is he a total control freak, micromanaging every tiny facet of government?
Is it good for him to take a doctor on an overseas trip (Kerry-AnneWalsh) or bad for him to take a doctor to look after the travelling party (Daily Telegraph)
Did he act too soon on Belinda Iguana (everybody), or too late (everybody else)?
Is he making it all up as he goes along (Lyons) or driving everyone crazy because he always reads his speeches (Annabelle Crabbe)?
Or are they all just $hitty because the only thing that can be called an “Insider” is an ABC TV program that has an audience of about 23 people?
Is he keeping his promises or is he mad to keep his promises?
Gary
you forgot to add: BOO after unions
726 gusface – sorry about that Chief! Unions (BOO)
Very well said BB (75).
Ross Gittins warned against the tax cuts earlier this year, now he is talking recession. Maybe the tax cuts will help ward off a deep recession?
The worthlessness of the Australian media, a symptom of right-wing media ownership demanding no quality from employees apart form producing an overall anti-labor pro-right-wing public presentation.
Journalists often don’t even bother to make out they are taking the path of criticism by analysis, it is simply slagging-off from the sidelines. In fact so called political journalists are basically engaging in nothing more than name calling.
Australians would find it hard to know if the policies of Rudd so far are good, bad or indifferent – there is very little discussion and analysis, just the cheering of one side.
Morgan’s ‘joke’ headline they other day ironically pretty much represents the way the MSM behave – choose the position/headline then manufacture the story. It helps if you coordinate it with the LNP first which they sometimes appear to do.
It is all pretty trashy stuff. I have gone from reading every major Aust paper every day to basically reading none or only incidentally. They offer nothing useful to read. I can generally pick up the running stories from ABC AM/PM and ABC news and seeing Australian current news presented on Chinese TV in Chinese.
The PM and the Labor Party
The MSM and the Liberal Party
LOL
Re 712: I emailed Roy Morgan this morning and he responded: Thanks, will fix ASAP
I assume someone hacked into the site
Andrew: so someone finally replied to one of your emails? Good for Mr Morgan!
It was a nice touch from Rudd today at the QLD ALP Conference, paying tribute to those poor two blokes who died on that construction site, it got a good run on the TV news tonight!
732 Progressive – It would have been impossible to turn that into a negative for Rudd but I bet they tried.
And cue ABC Online.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/21/2281782.htm
And here is the Poisoned Little Person
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23901434-5005374,00.html
So the fecal Dwarf has decided it is a ‘fraud’ even though Samuels [not a dumb person or someone who can be intimidated] is in favour of it. I think the Dwarf is the fraud for calling it a fraud. Deciding to call a policy a ‘fraud’ without giving any smallest argument to support it simply reveals his a personal hatred of Labor and love affair with Liberals coming out in his writing.
The Dwarf short of things with which to attack the government has had to revert to the aged issue of fuel watch and Nelson’s near irrelevant 5c – which his even his own side dissed at the first instance.
The Dwarf wont admit that it only ever became an ‘issue’ because the MSM had decided to over blow it and push it ad nauseum in their never ending endeavours to lift the Liberal party out of its cesspit.
Milne is living in some weird sort of fantasy land or this is simply just pushing a view he hopes some ignorant reader will accept.
There was no consumer ‘high ground’ to be had on this….that ground was swamped by international oil markets and the fact that the whole world is in the same boat.
Interesting that Milne is seeking to coin a new phrase: “..hollowing out..” in reference to Rudd’s support in the polls. It seems as if “honeymoon” is losing it’s lustre.
Video of the launch of WA Family First is up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWjCGXbbeV4
And what does ‘hollowing out’ mean? Is it a version of the theory, popular before last year’s election, that people were saying they were going to vote Labor just to tease the Libs?
There have been many attempts by the media over the last eighteen months to interpret the ALP’s polling figures as somehow not meaning what they say they do.
Why, why, why can’t they just admit they’ve got the community sentiment wrong and start again from scratch?
I could write better – and more realistic – attacks on the Rudd government than these guys.
Actually, it’s such a bad article by Milne it’s brilliant.
I love the bit that says that the Liberals believe that Nelson is holding them back – that without him there, voters will be able to shift to Liberals because they’re disappointed with the government.
So it’s not the brand that’s the problem, it’s the leader. (An inversion of Howard’s statement that, because he was polling better than the party was, the problem was with the party and not with him).
Haven’t they learnt anything from their experiences in the States? Or indeed from the Hawke years? I’m happy to let them play musical chairs with the leadership for a few more terms (obviously) but a strong Opposition would be nice.
As for the disappointment with the government riff – coming from Lib parliamentarians – how can they judge this? I assume that the average Lib pollie has never been happy with Rudd’s government, so their feelings haven’t changed. How can they then accurately judge the mood of the electorate?
Finally, a quick LOL at the inference that Pearce SHOULD have been promoted. He got the highest swing against a sitting member in Victoria, about the same as Mal Brough’s despite not having anywhere near the profile. That’s all I know about him, but it means that he MUST have major problems.
All in all, an hilarious article, one which probably deserves its own thread, there’s so much there to analyse.
“Retail politics”… read: spin.
What is the point of a doomed leader, spouting an outright damaging policy winning the “retail politics” of any situation, two and a half years before an election, by which time the whole world could be completely different to the one we are in now? Only a Rudd-obsessed weasel with nothing to write about could possibly think that this is worth dreaming up as a valid subject for discussion
Here we go again: The Messiah Complex. Six months after chucking out the Howard government, with the Opposition doing little better than scoring obscure points of order during question time and going off at the mouth without their leader’s permission, with computers beginnng to flood into schools, tax cuts about to become operative, the Apology taken care of, Howard gone to the cricket, Costello, Downer and Abbott relegated to the back benches, the whole world in crisis due to the price of oil and the sub-prime disaster, the Libs out of power in every state, and the polls emerging triumphant for the Labor government, all the public is looking for is a “permission note” to start turning away from Rudd. This will be easily accomplished by the simple act of substituting Malcolm Turnbull (or Peter Costello… or someone, anyone) for Brendan Nelson in the Liberal Party’s big chair. “Retail politics”, cheap gimmicks and the sneering wisecracks of the Commentariat, will be the sword which cuts the sentimental ties the public has with Labor and its leader.
Holy $hit! And Glenn Milne goes on about other people being delusional?
.
Julie Bishop is trying very hard, without evidence, to link Rudd’s office with Neal. She tried this in parliament and it fell flat.
http://news.theage.com.au/national/libs-link-rudds-office-to-iguanagate-20080622-2upz.html
Why does anyone bother reading the tired old crap from the Poisoned Dwarf?
His wife works for Crosby/Textor, that says it all!
Did anyone see Andrew Bolt on “Insiders”? Petulance personified. George was talking sense and Andrew didn’t want to know about it.
INsiders definately more balanced today. Who said our feedback wouldnt make a difference??!!! OK, so maybe it wasnt our feedback, but at least the host acknowledged that the “honeymooon” wasnt over and George was a voice of reason. Even Bolt is struggling to come up with much
Yes, Glen Milne is not the only one being delusional. Andrew Bolt said on Insiders that their is a strong chance that neither leader (Nelson or Rudd) will be there by the next election.
Here is a Prime Minister who has never gone close to losing a poll, won his first election easily, and is the highest PPM ever recorded, but Bolt reckons he won’t be leading the labor party at the next election.
Poor b@stard I nearly feel sorry for him.
For those who haven’t partaken, this article over on Possum’s “Possum Box” may explain what Bolt is trying to do.
http://thepossumbox.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/australian-attack-bloggers-and-the-overton-window/
Maybe INSIDERS was more balanced today because Jim Middleton is a more competent host than Barry Cassidy? A better panel too: George talks a lot of sense always, Annabelle Crabb is one of the better journos! Bolt of course is a frigging nutjob, but what’s new? LOL
Progressive 748 – Yes Insiders was better today. Jim Middleton gave the buffon (Truss) a bit of a workover and Geo Meg was, as usual, very balanced and objective.
There is only one person listening to Lynn Allison– herself! Bye, Bye LYN!
Another example of what I wrote yesterday:
Julie Bishop in the Age article:
John Lyons’ article in The Australian yesterday:
Well? Which is it? “Rudd is a control freak who knows everything that goes on”, or “Rudd doesn’t know the half of what is going on”?
As to Insiders: is Julia Gillard the Deputy PM while Rudd is away overseas, and thus should be the one who deals with trivia like the Belinda Neal case? Or is Rudd the control freak PM wherever he goes and should be the one who deals with the trivia? Is Rudd expected to have copies of The Sunday Telegraph faxed to his car in Tokyo?
On the one hand Rudd will lose office to Gillard before the next election. On the other Rudd is an obsessive, totally motivated by spin and criis control, unable to delegate. He was either too early to counsel Neal, too late, or Gillard is after his job.
They try to be careful that the same journalist doesn’t put both contradictory points. The usual method is to get one to say “this” and another to say “that”. The next step is to write a column saying that Rudd is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Pretty soon he has “nowhere to turn”. After that the word “crisis” keeps on coming up.
Oh, and I forgot Bolt’s classic that “the Rudd government is in deep trouble”. apparently the stellar polls prove it.
LOL Andrew. You wish, mate.
George Meglogenis was exactly correct in saying that people understand the complexities of petrol prices and want the PM to work on long term solutions. It was too painful for Bolt to listen to.
Goodonya George great to see a journo say it the way he really believes for a change.
What about the new policy from the liberal party. To reduce the exice by 5 cents for now, then 10, and then 20 in the long term if possible!
Economic credibility of Costello – Down the tubes. LOL
Sorry for triple posting but I just read in the Sunday Telegraph that Rudd is in trouble with senior public servants. Apparently Mr.. L’Estrange was not invited on some trip or other and this was seen as a “major snub” and led to rumours that he might be long for this world, jobwize. So L’Estrange is supposed to have tenure?
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23901324-5001021,00.html
They’re already quoting each other.
Combine this with the AAP story yesterday quoting the Australian’s story, and now this one, quoting the Australian’s story, plus adding a bit more, and expect tomorrow or the next day to see in The Australian “reports say Mr. Rudd’s office is in permanent crisis mode”.
BB,
“reports say Mr. Rudd’s office is in permanent crisis mode”.
They’ll probably refer to PB as a third party endorsement of the story now.
Cheers.
Bushfire Bill @ #751
I’d dismiss Julie Bishop. When she calls Rudd a “renowned control freak”, I hear sour grapes because it goes to the heart of her grievance: that Rudd controls the government.
When journos start incestuously quoting of each other as evidence, you know they got nothing and are feeling the sting of irrelevancy.
Truss has just destroyed any little economic credibility the Coalition may have maintained. Labor should have a field day modelling what a 20c excise cut would do to the budget bottom line, while at the same time protaying them as being all over the shop on this issue.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23903478-5003402,00.html
protaying – make that portraying
Some of you were wondering what SA’s MrX was going to do on the big stage. His first major act is to introduce a bill to ban ATMs from pubs.
This will be a wedge for the Ruddster. I have it on very good authority that when Ruddski made some anti-gambling noises before the last election that he was taken aside by the gambling/ hotel lobby and had the errors of his ways explained to him. He promised to never, ever be naughty again.
Will Labor favour principles or pragmatism? I report, you decide.
New Senator Nick Xenophon’s first act – banning pub ATMs
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23903510-5006301,00.html
760 Diogenes – “I have it on very good authority that when Ruddski made some anti-gambling noises before the last election that he was taken aside by the gambling/ hotel lobby and had the errors of his ways explained to him. He promised to never, ever be naughty again.”
Glenn Milne has changed his name.
I’m all for regulating gambling, no argument, but can anyone explain why a problem gambler, if this became law, wouldn’t firstly take wads of money to their pub and secondly go to an ATM in their local area if they did run out? Desperate people will do desperate things.
We are talking about the problem gamblers not the average person who has no problem limiting themselves aren’t we?
Gary
We will see who’s right. And I’m hardly a Liberal supporter. He’s Howard-lite. I’m suggesting that Rudd is more interested in electability than values.
If you look at Ruddski’s schedule at the last election, you will see he had a meeting with the NSW Hotel lobby very shortly after making anti-gambling noises. They made a deal me thinks.
Gary
It’s a fundamental human trait to think you might win at gambling so lots of them will not take that much money there because they won’t need it. Also, some will think “I’ll only take $100 and if I lose, I’ll quit then.” Having an ATM means they can keep losing.
Obviously they can go to the shopping centre etc to get more money out but at least this makes it harder for them and they get out into the real world for a while. A puritan nanny-state pollie like Rudd is really going to have to contort himself into a knot to avoid supporting this one.
I think it’s natural for teething problems every new Government has them, the question facing Rudd is not is there a proble but how does he deal with them.
The Liberals are trying really hard to find faults with the Government but are falling for the old trick of playing the man not the ball.
The following is the answer to yesterday’s question
C) Decriminalisation of abortion
A) 2am Lockout
B) North-South Pipeline
D) Desalination Plant
F) Myki Ticketing
E) Petrol prices
It is true that the Catholic Church has a loud voice but the point was to show that one of the reasons why the Government is travelling so well while the Media seems to be pianting a different picture the voters haev different concerns.
Yes increasing Interest Rates and high Petrol prices overtime will hurt Rudd but at this stage the people screaming the loudest are natural Liberal voters just like in the 1996-2004 period the loudest voices were natural ALP voters!
I think Rudd has correctly handled the Belinda Neal issue and Julia Gillard’s status as a talent is ever increasing!
No one should expect the Liberals to be doing any better in the polls!
Problem gambling is one great big beat up by minority groups who want a headline and think they know everything but know absolutely nothing.
Sure there are problem gamblers, but that number pales into insignificance as opposed to problems with drugs and alcohol and other problems in our society. Responsible gambling practices in Australia are among the best in the world. Fact!
What I completely detest is those minority and religious groups and the likes of Tim Costello continually telling people HOW they should live their lives.
“No one should expect the Liberals to be doing any better in the polls!”
Why? Compare the polls with Labor in their first term of opposition after the 96 election!
The Labor Party would want to save all its energies and prepare for the real contest for the next election. It will be the battle of the heavyweights – not the lightweights of Brenda and Straightbull.
Rudd .v. Costello
The MSM and The-Top-End-Of-Town are already organising and preparing for the battle as we speak!
764 Diogenes – “Ruddski’s”, “Howard-lite” – me thinks you are no Rudd supporter though.
“They made a deal me thinks.” This suggests pure speculation on your part, not fact.
Put those two thoughts together and you have someone with an anti Rudd disposition pushing an anti – gambling barrow.
Costello is out the back door. He knows he’s not that popular.
Gary
No, I’m not that fond of Rudd. I prefer Julia Gillard.
Your second statement is a classic “ad hominem” argument. It does not deal with the criticism made. It only tries to argue that someone who disagrees with Rudd and gambling has a barrow or bias, rather than having a rational opinion. I’ts a Howard tactic.
And the meeting between Rudd and the NSW hoteliers is not speculation. Rudd sold out and promised not to rock the boat in exchange for the hoteliers not campaigning against him.
Centre
I see a few suicides a year from “problem gambling”. The victims and their families don’t seem to think that it’s a beat-up. Perhaps they are wrong and should just keep quiet.
I have a feeling Rudd will make a few compromises with Mr X to get bills through the senate. He seemed pretty interested in getting rid of pokies in clubs during the election so maybe he’ll start with clubs first to keep Mr X happy.
What Federal Law is Nick X going to use to limit ATMs?
Diogenes @ 771
And the meeting between Rudd and the NSW hoteliers is not speculation. Rudd sold out and promised not to rock the boat in exchange for the hoteliers not campaigning against him.
And the evidence for this is? The fact he met some hoteliers in NSW? Seems to be a mighty long bow you’re pulling.
Do they even have pokies in pubs in NSW? I thought it was mostly sporting clubs.
ruawake
It’s in the article at 760.
ANTI-GAMBLING advocate Nick Xenophon will move a private member’s bill banning ATMs from pubs and clubs with poker machines as one of his first acts as a new senator.
Senator Xenophon said 250,000 Australians had a gambling problem because of poker machines.
“We know from the Productivity Commission that for every problem gambler there are seven people affected by that, so close to one in 10 Australians are in some way worse off because of the gambling, the pokies bug, and that’s something that we need to tackle,” he said.
MayoFeral
I was stirring up a highly placed gambling lobbyist about Rudd’s comments about gambling (the lobbyist used to be a senior Labor adviser). He assured me it wouldn’t be a problem for the reasons mentioned above.
“And the meeting between Rudd and the NSW hoteliers is not speculation”. Now whose adopting the Howard tactic. The speculation I was referring to was not whether Rudd met the hotliers but whether he promised what you say he did.
No evidence, a thing against Rudd and an anti gambling disposition. That’s not speculation on my part. All I have to do is read your posts. I’m not arguing the gambling issue, I’ve stated my position earlier. I’m trying to obtain your evidence. I suggest you don’t have any, just a barrow to push. Prove me wrong.
“He assured me it wouldn’t be a problem for the reasons mentioned above.” I maybe a bit thick Diogenes but, having gone back and read your posts, I still do not know what you mean by this.
States control Pokies, States control liquor licencing.
So Nick X’s bill must be aimed at the Banks. It will be a nightmare to draft.
Gary
Am I supposed to have a written agreement between Rudd and the gambling lobby? It would have been a verbal agreement. The fact that there is no written agreement posted on PollBludger does not mean it’s not true.
In the end, Rudd’s response will give us the answer.
Gary
I should add that I am not anti-gambling. I gamble quite often. I’ll even have a bet that Rudd either squashes or waters down the bill to a homeopathic strength.
ruawake
Mr X said something about that being one of his reasons for leaving State for Federal politics. Personally, it sounded like a crock to me,
I think the idea of banning ATMs has been floated in various reports/inquiries so the substance behind Mr X is quite weighty
Mayo
lots of pubs are in NSW are owned by a few individuals ,pokies are a huge reason that pubs sell for millions .
Dio
the meeting happened for sure but i believe the word compromise would be more appropriate.
I would hazard a guess that a timetable was agreed to much like any other industry facing rationalisation
the real politics will be when Mr X has to vote on contentious legislation
gusface
Sounds like you know more than me about the meeting. Rudd didn’t talk about it for the rest of the campaign and the hoteliers didn’t come out against him. As you say, compromise was probably the better word.
ACA MONDAY EVENING: Supposedly new shocking revelations about the Belinda Neal/Della Bosca “Iguanagate Affair”.
re 771,
“I see a few suicides a year from problem gambling”. The victims and their families don’t seem to think that it’s a beat-up. Perhaps they are wrong and should just keep quiet.”
Do you really see a few suicides a year from problem gambling Diogenes? What about suicides from drug and alcohol and depression and many other related factors in our society? Mate, you have got to be joking!
I am not saying there are no problem gamblers, and I would be the last to go into bat for the hoteliers – believe me. But whenever these minority groups need a headline – they target gambling.
Take that Tip2 (Tim Costello) for e.g. He felt so happy for taking the pokies of a couple of major companies in Victoria. Bloody stupid fool. What did he achieve?
- He will cost Victorian tax payers 1.2 billion in compensation.
- Responsible gambling practices will now be jeopardised.
- The same number of poker machines will be in place.
- I repeat, the same number of poker machines will be in place.
Tip2 thought he did so good, I repeat, bloody stupid fool.
respond to Centre’s comment comparing the ALP’s poll numbers in 1996 to the Liberals in 2008!
If my memory is correct the Liberals were quite some distance infront but Howard’s ministers started getting caught up by the ministral standards from there the poll numbers narrowed.
Centre
Obviously many are depressed as well. Some have alcohol and drug problems, mainly prescription drugs. It’s a complex issue.
The most amazing thing about Tim Costello, is the fact that he actually thinks he hurt those two companies I referred to. Take Tatts Group for e.g.
- They will reconstruct their business model over the next four years.
- Aggressively maximise gaming revenue.
- Substantially cut operating costs.
- Receive a windfall from sale of assets.
- Save millions in future licensing fees which would have gone to the Vic government.
- Receive something like 70 cents a share ($600m) from the Vic government in compensation.
Yep, bloody stupid fool Tip2. He should stick to religion or something he knows something about.
In 1996 only two Howard Ministers were boned.
Senator Jim Short 14 Oct 1996
Senator Brian Gibson 15 Oct 1996
“Due to Ministerial impropriety in relation to conflict of interest concerning bank licences.”
It was not until late 1997 when David Jull, John Sharp and Peter McGauran were found to be dodgy travelers.
Then nothing for 10 years until Ian Campbell was caught up in Brian Bourke’s web.
M B, I disagree.
I think it’s a case of Rudd being much more popular than Brenda, as opposed to Howard being popular than Beazley.
Btw, enjoyed your posts.
Just one more thing about Tim Costello. He really thinks he influenced the Vic government in making the decisions re poker machines that they did! LOL
But there was someone who stands to gain from that decision???
Let me add one more point to 787.
- Tatts Group are now a takeover target.
Yep, you really did well Tip2.
It looks Mr X is going to block Fuelwatch. I think Rudd will need to find some triggers to bring on a DD to get some of the legislation through.
GB, Rudd may not be too peturbed about this because (a) Fuelwatch may not work and (b) He can claim the senate wont let him act on petrol.
On another subject, as the Corby case is revealed to have been based on a bogus defence, Dolly is revealed to have told her lawyers to look at her brothers. Weird
Downer denies special knowledge of Corby case
http://au.news.yahoo.com/080622/21/17dvb.html?f=mv
Senator Xenophon said he hoped to meet Mr Harradine in the next week or two.
“I’m happy to get pointers from all sources. Brian Harradine did a good job in extracting a good deal for his state on a whole range of issues,” he said.
”(The Senate is) supposed to be a house of review, it’s supposed to be a states’ house and that’s the role I intend to undertake on behalf of my state.”
So is Mr X saying he will pass legislation if SA gets more pork?
Whilst it is almost not worth commenting on Bolt or Milne (what would you expect them to say??), it is quite bizarre the way many reporters and commentators cannot simply accept the simple proposition that Rudd is popular and doing well. Stories are beaurecrats working too hard or kept waiting or even what a backbencher of no consequence did at a restaurant are really scraping the barrel. I would have thought that after Rudd’s victory, the reporting an commentary may have improved but if anything its worse
And to keep things in perspective -”Pokies cloud over McGaurans”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22554362-601,00.html
Pertinent, maybe, maybe not – they all give me the shits
The talk of a DD election is wishful thinking by the minor parties, it will not happen.
The Lib/Nats have not voted against any legislation, they have just delayed it. Why? Because the last thing they want is a DD trigger.
The political hard heads will realise its stupid to hand the Govt. an election whenever they feel like calling it.
The only result would be less Lib/Nat senators. So expect them to delay legislation but when it comes to the crunch they will pass it.
796 ruawake – including Fuelwatch?
And a qote
GB
Especially on Fuel Watch. Remember we are only talking triggers. The technical reason for the election is irrelevant.
What a DD trigger means is that Rudd can call an election whenever he sees the Libs are at their most shambolic.
They may reject the legislation and return it to the reps – but I bet London to a brick they will not reject it a second time.
The largest pokie machine owner in Australia is Woolworths. Anywhere where you see and orange “BWS” bottleshop they own the pub.
cille, there is nothing, nothing the I hate more than the top-end-of-town and the rich not paying their true share of taxes.
These are the people who take three hour lunches, play golf every second day and what’s worse, cost corporations billions of dollars. Whereas the real people who do the real work, pay the most taxes.
There is so much government revenue there to be raised by tightening loop holes in legislations.
That’s why the MSM (the real reason) supports the Liberals. There is much more for them to lose than to gain.
Excellent call Red Wombat. But there is another company I had in even more in mind ???
And Tim Cossie reckons the Vic government made its decisions based on his lobbying. Yep forget about government revenue and top-end-of-town profits, we’ll listen to Tip2 – hysterical!
Woolworths bought ALH (Australian Leisure & Hospitality) in conjunction with Bruce Mathieson. Mathiesons hotels were then incorporated into the new joint venture (Bruandwo………Bruce, Andrew and Woolworths. MSM always refer to it as “Bruce and Woolworths) Woolworths own 75%, Bruce and Andrew 25%.
Possum fans – there’s a new bit of spiffy analysis up, discussing whether poor polling results can be blamed on Nelson or on the party.
Having seen Xanthippe’s copy of Tim Costello’s book, I agree with the view that ATMs should be banned near gaming machines. Frankly, I’m sure they’d find a way if they have to, so stick to your guns Nick, I say!
As for Ruawake’s comments at 796 and 799, I agree 100%. That is the reason they sent the luxury car tax to committee. They wouldn’t dare reject it on current polling, or one coalition senator in every State would be looking for a job. I would think my two favourite democrats (Bartlett adn Allison) would have a better chance of getting back in than some of the Coalition sixth ticket holders.
Allison is one of your favourite Democrats? Meh.
Andrew Murray, Natasha Stott Despoja and Andrew Bartlett leave her in the dust. How she is leader is beyond me.
The Courier-Mail has published results from its Queensland Galaxy survey on Liberal federal leadership preference (Costello 30 per cent, Turnbull 23 per cent, Nelson 14 per cent), among other things. Nothing on voting intention.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23905075-3102,00.html
William
Galaxy only asked the question on State voting intention. After they asked the questions on Federal politics.
According to today’s SMH, Rudd is set to sack Belinda Neal from the ALP after new allegations concerning “Iguanagate” are aired tonight on Channel 9’s A CURRENT AFFAIR!
As if on cue….
After yesterday’s furphy article in the Telegraph on how Big Business was encouraging Costello to go back and be leader of the Libs to take on Rudd, we have a story in today’s Australian that takes the same facts and puts them in exactly the opposite light.
No-one wants you Peter.
One lot thinks you’re demanding too high a salary. The banks… well, they don’t want to upset the new government by “poking them in the eye”. And the rest don’t have anything for you to do. And this article names names. The boardrooms of Australia have spoken.
Right from the start Costello let himself be swindled out of the top job because he didn’t have the guts to have a go when the time was ripe. He didn’t have the nouse to make his own luck. Instead of taking the leadership when Downer faltered, he settled for a guarantee from Howard that in a couple of years’ time he’d be handed it on a platter. I mean, a guarantee is better than maybe… gulp… trying a… vote… and, and… maybe losing to Lazarus-with-a-triple-bypass… right?
Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. You kept your legs crossed for too long, Peter.
Bushfire Bill: LMAO!
Captain Smirk is as weak as piss, he’d need to have the Liberal leadership handed to him on a platter, he won’t do any work to go out and earn it.
And, I don’t buy the MSM spin that Costello would give Rudd a serious challenge in 2010.
Thanks BB, this morning has be a crappy one right from the start for me, but you just made me smile
And, I don’t buy the MSM spin that Costello would give Rudd a serious challenge in 2010.
If Costello is the best hope for the opposition, they are in deeper trouble than I thought.
If Peak Brenda and All Tip are the best hope for the fibs
maybe lazarus will go for the quintuple bypass
OMG that is not funny
Costello never “had the numbers”, either with the public, or in the Liberal Party. Besides, he lacked the ticker, too.
Practically the first thing he did after the election defeat was run up the white flag on leading the Party.
Leadership of a just-defeated Opposition – heck, Opposition at any point of the electoral cycle – calls for steel, guts, and hard, thankless work. Difficult to imagine he’s had a ticker transplant after all this time.
If he was the real mover-and-shaker he no doubt likes to imagine himself as being, the corporate world would have snapped him up quickly. After all, it’s not every day they have the opportunity to snap up a young(ish) former Federal Treasurer. It’s not like he made any secret of his desire to move in that direction. I suspect they saw his as marshmallow man and politely left him where he is.
So he remains a backbencher. I think that’s where he will stay. No job offers forthcoming from outside politics, he will serve out his term in the true time-serving tradition. There lies ahead of him years of sulking over the chances he chickened out of, and being hauled over the coals by Labor every sitting day of Parliament for the high-debt, high-inflation, high-interest rates economy he left in his wake.
The Costello story is all bluster. He clearly cant get a good offer to leave, and there is no way he will stay to be a two term (or more) opposition leader
Re: the Neal affair. Its the scandal that keeps on giving!! Now if as alleged the couple got irate and tried to use their status to get somewhere (my god we’re talking about a small restaurant for god’s sake) why try to cover it up to this extent? how stupid are these people?
Rudd has to be careful here. Just like Howard got into trouble in his first term with ministerial standards and then just abandoned them for ten years. If Rudd sacks her from the ALP (bearing in mind she keeps her seat unless she resigns), every incident from now on with lead to calls for sacking
The Commentariat are fond of taking small mistake, monor gaffes, nuances of indecision and so forth in Rudd and morphing them into unfitness to be Prime Minister. Usually phrases like “lack of judgement” or “…this may be a small issue, but it goes to character” (as per Bolt on Insiders yesterday) come to mind.
We see no such wistfulness or sad shaking of heads when it comes to Costello’s ambitions though, do we? It is assumed that if he wanted to he could take over the Opposition Leadership and turn the tables on Rudd… if only… he… had… the… numbers, or the ticker or the gumption to do so.
And there you have it. Costello’s conceit is that he either has it handed to him on a platter (and by this I mean the Prime Ministership, but leadership of the Opposition), or it’s a no-no. The myth is put around that “Peter has done enough already. He deserves a rest.” This really does go to character.
Somebody who has an entitlement mania, someone who is so supposedly confrontational yet eschews any form of real confrontation where he might actually lose the fight has a name: “bully”. They only fight when the little guy they’re beating up on can’t fight back, or if he does is so weak that he’ll lose. For them the concept of “courage” is meaningless. It’s all about winning, but only when the other horse is nobbled. All show pony, no show, when it comes to stepping up.
So when it comes to “character” or “judgement”, how could we ever permit a man to be leader of this nation? A man who was so naive as to be fooled into thinking Howard’s naked ambition was really just solid loyalty to the party and, when he finally woke up to what was going on, did nothing about it except bleat, whinge and carp from the sidelines, crying into his shiraz to Michael Brissenden, of all people.
Howard made one of his few decisions that I agree with when he buried this bloke. From a political position of zero, minus zero, Howard, bluffed Costello when Costello did have the numbers, or could have got them. And Costello’s supporters now have the temerity to believe could be Prime Minister? Howard conned him with the oldest two-card trick in the book. Why would you bother?
No guts, no glory, Peter. You are missing the former and will never have the latter.
The real Costello story, from the OO no less:
Costello job hunt falls on hard times
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23906404-601,00.html
What? A positive story from our ABC: Rudd and Hawke most popular leaders- as if we didnt know that already
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/23/2282483.htm
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23906404-601,00.html
The Australian, 23 June 2008
That speaks to the nonsense of the Tories’ WorkChoices line: that people can negotiate their way up the food chain.
When even an ex-Treasurer cannot negotiate the outcome he wants, what hope mere mortals when “negotiating” with powerful multinationals?
Humbug! Personified by SmirkChoices himself.
“The least popular politician we find of those we asked about was Peter Costello and it’s pretty clear from our survey and doing some modelling, if there had been a change in leadership, if Peter Costello had replaced John Howard the Liberals still would have lost the election.”
Bring on Costello as Leader of the Opposition, PLEASE.
810 + 819 …On Costello
I just think it’s classically ironic that the economic conditions Tip constructed here in this country go a long way to making him unemployable.
He was a Keating wannabe and that’s about it.
I think the corporate world understand that Costello as Treasurer simply lived off the work of Treasury and his advisers. He is not really an economist or the like, he is a barrister and politician. So Costello’s only benefit to a corporation would be his status and contacts.
Interestingly I believe Rudd would be in high demand as a corporate CEO.
Watching the Tosser Turner memorial on Sky and Mal Meningar is speaking and just mentioned how Kev and Swanny went to visit him in hospital before he died, without any publicity or fuss.
Latest Morgan qualitative poll at: http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4302/
826 what a bucket of junk (again!)
“Hi i’m from Morgan polling. I’ve lined up 100 criticisms of Kevin Rudd and I’d like you to chose a few that you think might be appropriate.
What – you like some of the things he’s doing. Sorry – I don’t have a box I can tick for that one; I’m just in charge of whining and whinging today. You’ll have to find someone else to talk to about what you think is going well. Surely there must be something you’re not happy about?”
Gary Morgan says:
“Although the latest Morgan Poll shows the ALP still well ahead with 58.5%, this latest qualitative research shows clearly the honeymoon is over. The electorate is concerned about the economic situation and is finding it difficult to reconcile the Rudd ALP pre-election promises and vision into their performance in the early part of their term in office.
“However, while the L-NP is not seen to be a credible alternative — disunity, lack of “clarity of vision”, policies etc. are plaguing the Opposition and Brendan Nelson is not seen as able to provide the needed leadership, the ALP is still the electorate’s choice.”
This Special Morgan Poll on Concerns about Kevin Rudd, Brendan Nelson and the ALP and L-NP parties was conducted during the week of June 4-9, 2008, with an Australia-wide cross-section of 1,258 electors.
It’s the same old assumption that people not liking something is somehow more powerful than people liking something else. It’s a pretty basic error to be underestimating the human sense of hope. It’s been a pretty common thread over the last couple of million years. In fact it’s probably the only thing keeping the LP viable at present too.
Mentioning the word ‘honeymoon’ is pretty much admission of intellectual barrenness at this stage.
Good grief.
Poor Gary cant help himself as always:
Although the latest Morgan Poll shows the ALP still well ahead with 58.5%, this latest qualitative research shows clearly the honeymoon is over.
Oh well here goes another email. At least he replies, although it obviously has no effect on his silly pronouncements
826 Ad astra
While you’re here – very well done on the thinking at the possum box.
If anyone here hasn’t come across it yet, do yourself a favour and take a peek:
http://thepossumbox.wordpress.com/2008/06/14/is-the-media-in-australia-suffering-from-groupthink/
The Climate Institute predicts the introduction of an emissions trading scheme will cost Australian households about $200 a year after five years in operation.
However, Liberal backbencher Denis Jensen says he is not sure that figure is correct.
“That is a very low estimate for what it’s going to be costing the average Australian household,” he said.
Dr Jensen says Australians will be lucky to see change from $1,000.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/23/2282751.htm?section=justin
So the resident Lavoisier Group skeptic (Denis Jensen) doubts this report. Why am I not surprised.
Latest Sky Noos Poll question on who to blame. You’d really expect a different result given the nature of the audience, Galaxy and Morgan. Of course they’re all about as accurate as one another.
http://www2.skynews.com.au/news/vote.aspx?repeat=n
828 Andrew – could you give me Morgan’s e-mail address again? Thanks
Howard Sattler is getting a bollocking over his whinging about being blacklisted by The Premier
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke
http://blogs.watoday.com.au/madashell/2008/06/carpenters_blac.html
“Fenech promises to knock out Nelson”
I was getting excited until I read it is Azumah Nelson and not Brenda. bugger!
http://news.smh.com.au/sport/fenech-promises-to-knock-out-nelson-20080623-2v8t.html
So Jensen must have his own computers, models and so forth and having run them come up with this figure?
Or maybe $200 just seemed not enough to cause worry to the gerneral public and thus gives them no room to make up stories to bash government.
Let me see Climate Institute -v- Jensen number plucked from sky? Did the journalists ask him how he got his figure and why he doesn’t believe the Climate Institute?
—————————–
The Skynooze poll shows most people blame everything else but govt (25%) for the oil prices. Which is a bit odd since the demographic usually wont miss the opportunity to dirty the government’s name.
Costello will lead the Liberals at the next election. The Liberals simply don’t have anyone else. Brenda has the lowest PPM percentages ever since records were kept. Straightbull is an amateur. When the people got to see more of him, his preferred treasurer figures were reversed with Swan’s in an instant.
When Cossie does become leader, beware, we are going to be in for the MOTHER of all honeymoons, all expenses paid by the MSM!
836 Centre – won’t happen.
The gigantic elephant in the room for the MSM is the abysmal quality of the Liberal party throughout Australia.
They have to start analysing why.
Why are they so bad for so long?
Why do they attract so many candidates not up to the job?
Why do they persist with policy and style that is unacceptable to the public?
AND, why on earth is the Federal Opposition, having been in power for more than a decade with all the benefits and experience that come from that – so totally incompotent and ignorant?
It has to be a systemic problem to do with the nature of the Liberal party since it is Australia wide and, long term.
Surely this is the major issue confronting Australia? Lack of credible oppositions eventually lead to bad governments.
So why isn’t the MSM putting the blow torch on this issue?
It would be truly sad if the MSM have decided to undermine the government and build up the Liberal party regardless of the total lack of ability and quality.
Time will tell, Gary
Costello couldn’t take being ridiculed by Rudd and Swan during QT. He will be having nightmares of when Keating was PM beating up on him.
I can just imagine Swan calling Costello – Mr Inflation.
AND why would he want to lead a bunch of no hopers?
The last government was basically Howard and not much else.
Really Costello whilst he might raise their stakes a little will be just delaying the inevitable clean out that needs to occur all the way down the line.
There is absolutely no indication out here that people want a Costello led government, quite the opposite. He gives every sign of someone looking for the exit. Hell, I hope I’m wrong.
The Liberals with a leader from Victoria? Not likely
That leader being Peter Costello? Even more unlikely
Costello abdicated on election night.
Andrew @ 819 -
Fairfax are only paying Cossie $50K for his
novelfish & chips wrapping?! I could get nearly that much for my memoirs. LOLMaybe someone should take up a collection for the poor bugger…. anyone?….
838
Great topic.
I’ll make a suggestion that it goes further than the Australian LP and include conservative politics in the US. This is really a topic for a book, or series of books, so I’ll just start with a few questions:
Where on earth are the ’smart’ conservative politicians? Sure, they’ve had plenty of success in getting elected lately (last 15 years or so), though this seems to be waning. It’s easy enough to take a crack at GWB, but the true measure of the party is the calibre of the immediate team. Both here and in the US the conservatives were smart enough to get elected, but not smart enough to think long term, or even take the public with them on their little ideological journey. They can’t seem to plan for their future party, let alone a whole country.
One of the questions that has stumped me in regard to the Republicans is why, in the whole entire world of conservative politics, can’t they find a speech writer who can work with GWB? Boggling. Why does no one care?
Why does conservative politics now wholly equate with economic neo ludditism when a slew of conservative economists are telling us that the conservative way to manage climate change is to deal with it now, and that this could in fact be more profitable? Business is streets ahead of the politicians on this on and that’s surely got to be driving a fund-raising wedge.
That’s a start.
On Costello – he’s not a team builder, policy developer, or even original or creative thinker. I’ll grant he has some personal charisma – he looks the part when wandering the streets of Melbourne, but he’s flawed and he hasn’t cultivated the relationships to either plug the flaws or develop the positives.
And what is it with the meme out there that there’s going to be a single fix the the Liberals problems, or any problem for that matter?
843
50K – is that it?!?
try 2.2M for a guy no-one has ever heard of here:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/web/life-for-sale-only-one-user/2008/06/23/1214073123187.html
GB the email address: Gary.Morgan@roymorgan.com
Have to give him credi- he responds promptly
Re Skynews poll- very suprising result from the usual anti-ALP audience
Thanks Andrew.
Essential Poll on Sky Agenda was excellent for Rudd today. Wonder if it will be reported in MSM. Bruce Hawker and Graeme Morris agreed Rudd has done right thing by controlling all for first few months but can now let go a little. I was surprised all round by Morris who said young press blokes had been used in previous Liberal PM offices and that you needed one ‘headkicker’ and one ‘conciliator’ as press secs. Wonder if Morris is seeking something from the Govt. because, apart from saying fuel tax needing to be reduced earlier than later, he virtually agreed with Bruce Hawker.
Good explanation in crikey today of reason Lyons got stuck into Rudd – apparently he was the journo who was pushed aside by security blokes outside the Star Casino a few months ago. Security was concerned about Rudd’s safety. Sorry but I don’t know how to link the crikey piece.
Kina @ 838 -
AND, why on earth is the Federal Opposition, having been in power for more than a decade with all the benefits and experience that come from that – so totally incompotent and ignorant?
Kina @ 840 –
The last government was basically Howard and not much else.
You’ve answered your own question.
The meeja like to bang on about Rudd being a micro-manager, but I understand that, with one or two exceptions, ministers in the last government had to pass everything through the Dept of PM&C which had the final say on just about everything.
Which may explain why they were so unwilling to cut Howard adrift when he gave them the perfect opportunity during APEC. None of the fools were capable of making a decision as they’d never had to before.
And they still can’t. Cossie and Lord Lunchalot can’t make up their minds on whether to quit, Nelson gives 3 different answers to every question – all of which are contradicted by Turnbull, they can’t decide whether to oppose bills so they send them off to the never-never land of committees while desperately hoping for inspiration – or perhaps a voice from on high, etc, etc,….
I suspect that during the last 12 years we had about as close to a dictatorship as we’re likely to ever have short of a military coup.
Well, there’s hope for aussie journos yet -
http://thekillfile.blogspot.com/2008/06/news-makers.html
Sue H
to include a link here you just copy and paste the address – nothing else required.
while I was over a crikey I found a neat little pice from Mr Kohler:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/web/life-for-sale-only-one-user/2008/06/23/1214073123187.html
d’oh – that’s not the link – this is:
Kohler on big oil:
http://www.crikey.com.au/Business/20080623-Kohler-The-pandering-paradox.html
The ‘dictatorship of Howard’ also explains the problem for the media.
For years, they’ve been running with whatever line Howard fed them, regardless of the real issues.
You could see it happening – a nasty issue would come up for the government, Howard would say “Look over there!” and the press pack would be off after the new scent, totally oblivious to the real issue they’d left behind them.
I remember the 1998 election (above average swing for our campaign): by all measures, Howard was unelectable. He couldn’t run on his record; his first term had been disastrous. He couldn’t make promises; the electorate was deeply distrustful, having been burnt by the ‘non core’ line.
So he came out with the GST, which only months before he and Costello had rejected.
Immediately, the media’s attention switched to this. It was virtually impossible – I tried – to get them to run stories on any other issue. By the time the election proper came around, the whole discourse was whether or not the GST was a good idea rather than whether or not the Howard government should be re elected.
Our media is still the same. Leave them on their own to sort out what they should be talking about and they can’t do it. They need someone to feed them stories.
So if the Liberals do this, they’ll run them, regardless of how ridiculous it makes them look to the wider world. They simply don’t have the ability to do anything independently.
I think Rudd knows this. I think he also knows that, basically – apart from tragics such as ourselves – people don’t WANT the news to be about politics. So if the Libs want to run stories demonstrating how out of touch they are, he’s willing to let them.
It would be nice if the msm were capable of independently assessing issues, researching them and presenting the results of their analysis to the public. But they obviously aren’t.
Pity: good governance requires not only a robust Opposition but a critical Press as well (and I mean critical in the positive sense, of providing objective analysis).
Probably Rudds best performance on QT today. It seems that the opposition tactics group have no idea how to put a decent attack togeather. Nelson asked two pathetic questions assisted by the wheat farmers in the public gallery – Rudd smartly let them know that the Libs had voted with Labor on the abolittion of the single wheat desk.
It was good to see a re run of the poison dwarfs public outing at the Walkley Awards last night on Rove. Rove made some brillant comments about the state of one of our most senior journalists!!
I’ve got an idea for Brenda – remove all excise from petrol. It would only cost about $14 billion.
This would reduce petrol prices to what they were when Howard the omnipotent was in his death throws – last Nov.
853 I’d agree with that zoom.
I ‘discovered’ another part of the problem on the weekend. I know an intelligent journalist who’s job is pretty apolitical, though they are part of the MSM. I discovered that they are friends with one who regularly received a bollocking here, and who I reckon I’d struggle to have a conversation with.
I was a little dumbfounded – there’s just not enough layers of separation there for my liking.
It made me think about how my acquaintance judges the work of the other, and I realised that they just don’t, or at least not to any extent that would affect a friendship.
For me, it’s a bit like taking the keys off your drunk mate, but in journalistic circles it obviously isn’t.
I think there’s a fundamental disconnect between the public expecting some sort of motivation to seek truth and conscience on the part of the journalists that just isn’t even on the radar of most journo’s. Most of us have social and work persona’s that differ slightly, but it had never occurred to me that journo’s are more like actors when at work than detectives.
I guess with the rise of television and video entertainment it shouldn’t have been that surprising, but it opened my eyes just that little bit further.
In total – I just don’t think most of them take their job or industry as seriously as we take them based upon their history.
Well here is an answer that deals with the source of the problem and not some piddly 5c excise Mr Nelson.
It must be good since McCain is scrambling to have his name associated with it as well.
“With the cost of gas a top issue in the presidential campaign, Barack Obama on Sunday will announce a plan to crack down on oil speculation by tightening regulations on energy traders.
Obama wants to close a loophole in federal law that exempts some energy traders from regulations that govern other exchange-traded commodities. Democrats call this “the Enron loophole” because it benefited the Houston energy-speculation firm that collapsed in an accounting scandal.
In response, John McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds said: “The truth is Barack Obama is following John McCain’s lead to close a Wall Street loophole that was signed into law by President Bill Clinton. John McCain has supported bipartisan efforts to close this loophole and will work to address abuses in oil speculation.” http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080622/pl_politico/11252;_ylt=AmsCISUuYoIbvAIRxSlkU4BsnwcF
“Obama said: “For the past years, our energy policy in this country has been simply to let the special interests have their way —…”
Sounds like Howard’s Green Mafia mates… who will no doubt still flood the country with misinformation and scare campaigns on Carbon trading.
“Prime Minister, was the government contacted by the major Australian producer of ethanol or by any representative of his company or the Industry Association before its decision to impose fuel excise on ethanol? If so, when? Was the government urged to take action to prevent Trafigura Fuels Australia from importing a shipment of ethanol from Brazil at a commercially competitive price?”
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/09/16/1063625029755.html
Manildra will haunt Brenda.
As Tony Abbott recently told Webdiary, “There are some things the public has no particular right to know”
Good old Tony, at the time looking forward to a nice one party state
Clouds gathering on the housing boom – only the global/China boom keeps reality at bay.
16/08/2003
“And my point in drawing the parallel with business borrowing in ’80s is to remind you that there’s nothing to stop a good old-fashioned speculative property boom and bust being grafted on the top of a perfectly innocent structural change in the economy.”
“When the housing boom turns to bust, consumer spending could weaken significantly.
And if, at that time, the economy happened to be weak for other reasons – such as the continuing weakness of the world economy – the blow could be severe.”
Ross Gittins is the Herald’s Economics Editor.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/15/1060936057195.html?from=storyrhs
And one last one pertinent today. So changing the private insurance regulations will put increased burden on the Public system?
Well it seems maybe not much ever left the public system anyway.
“In a study to be presented to a national health summit beginning tomorrow, the NSW Health Department’s research says the Federal Government’s aim of relieving strains on public hospitals by boosting private insurance is “a dismal failure”.
The study shows that private patients are dominating non-emergency surgery. In the category of gynaecological procedures, for example, they are undergoing surgery at up to six times the rate of public patients.”
The Prime Minister, John Howard, this week rejected calls for health system reform, stating that the boost for private insurance, including the $2.4 billion annual tax rebate, had taken “a massive load” off public hospitals.”
Another Howard govt gift to its mates.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/15/1060936055149.html?from=storyrhs
Thank you onimod for your comments about the Possum Box article. There’s another posted today: Awaiting the Awakening – The Media and Kevin Rudd at: http://thepossumbox.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/awaiting-the-awakening-the-media-and-kevin-rudd/
No surprise John Lyons has a personal vendetta against Rudd!
Did anyone else watch ACA tonight? Belinda Neal is toast if any of these allegations are proved to be true, I think at the very least she’ll be disendorsed before the next election!
I do not like Tony Abbott!!!!! I had to be medicated for nausea recently when he was on the cover of the Australian Weekend Magazine with a photo of the Pope, the Christ on Earth!!!!! I am only just recovering!!!!!
QT will be more boring than usual this week: NO JULIA, she’s in Washington!
Progressive.
I watched ACA – the shock horror revelations seem to be that the person signed a stat dec that did not include a para saying “do you know who I am”.
So why sign it?
One thing that seemed to be odd was that the “staffer” (of 3 weeks) was a friend of one of the reptile bar staff.
Progressive
Dolly and Smirk are on the same trip to the USA.
They are probably looking for a job seeing as no one in Austraia will employ them lol.
864 [Did anyone else watch ACA tonight? Belinda Neal is toast if any of these allegations are proved to be true...]
That would be a longshot Progressive. I saw recently that ACA had clocked up its fifth finding against it in three years for only giving one side of a story. The media watchdog is getting sick of having to decide cases involving ACA.
Rudd is hard working: poll
82% think Rudd is hard working and intelligent
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=584903
zoom at 853 thanks for your perspective of Howard98. I never thought of the GST as a diversion issue- it now seems so obvious
870 Andrew
ha – that’s amazing.
It seem like people like Rudd so much that they’re worried he’s going to burn out and not leave enough Rudd for later!!!
Hillarious
The MSM trying to put out a negative message that Rudd is 24/7 has simply left the subconcious impression that he is hard working and on the job. Better than the opposite.
subconscious
I was saddened by the death of another celebrity but was it necessary for our politicians to get into the act, especially in parliament. The cult of celebrity rules again… pathetic.
Why do people watch A Current Affair. It is full of dribble and nonsense, watching it encourages them to report nonsense and bring out trivial rubbish and our media is full of it.
agreed marky. why is it even called ACA- no current affairs within cooee of this tabloid trash
vera @ 868 -
Dolly and Smirk are on the same trip to the USA.
They are probably looking for a job seeing as no one in Austraia will employ them lol.
Dolly is definitely in NY for a job interview as the UN’s Lord High Peacekeeper of Cyprus no less.
The fact a war criminal and facilitator of corruption, whether deliberately or by negligence/incompetence, of the UN food for oil program could be considered for any UN role beggars belief. He should be banged up in a ICC cell in the Hague, not being considered for a cushy job in an organisation he badmouthed constantly during the 12+ years he was FM.
Even worse, Stephen Smith is actively encouraging him to take the position:
http://news.smh.com.au/national/smith-backs-downer-as-un-envoy-to-cyprus-20080602-2ks1.html
878 – Agree MayoFeral. Not a good look for Labor to be rewarding Downer. Its will just look like a bit of figleaf cover and excuse for later doling out jobs to their own mates who have passed their use-by. Its not like getting rid of him will damage the Libs or provide an opportunity to win a by-election. Throw the book and a bag of wheat at him.
Marky Marky: I was sick ofthe Jane McGrath thing by last night! Talk about media overkill, today’s SYDNEY DAILY TELEGRAPH was full of it! Yes, it’s very sad, but aren’t there more important issues in the world to report? What about Zimbabwe?
Imagine being stuck on the same plane as Dolly Downer and the Smirkster: Ugh!
880 – What makes you think The Daily Morongraph will start reporting real news? They never have and don’t even look like coming close.
I just saw Julie Bishop on Lateline. She was woeful. Confected outrage, moral indigniation, squwaking consipracy theories in relation to the Iguana thing.
She tries to link the changing of statutory declarations to Kevin Rudd and his inclination to micro mange everything. She attempted to construct a case that Rudd is in this up to his neck advising Neal on what to do and how to proceed. She intimated that it would beggar belief that Rudd isn’t involved because he is a control freak.
She then claimed that the government has now referred this matter to the Federal Police as a result of the opposition’s pressure and brilliance in prosecuting the matter in parliament.
Honestly it was quite pitiful. This woman is deputy leader of the Liberal and potentially a leadership candidate. She was hopeless. If Bishop is the best they can offer beyond Nelson then they are in real strife.
While I’m no Downer lover, I don’t think appointing him to this post in Cyprus (if it happens) will go down badly with the electorate at large. On the contrary, I think it will show to the electorate that Rudd has a bit of even-mindedness about him and that will be seen as a plus for him. I don’t think that the vast majority of the voters out there see Lord Dolly the same way as we do.
I do agree that Rudd gains more out of posting Downer somewhere. Makes him appear apolitical, not involved in usual political revenge games and who can complain if he does the same for one of his own.
With people like Downer he just needs to make sure it is nowhere important and where he can make trouble – like China or Japan or the USA.
Maybe Rudd remembers his bible:
“Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head”
Would gall Downer to take a job from Rudd given his jealousy.
Kina 835 (sorry for the late response)
The figures bandied about for the impact of carbon taxes are way off. Carbon taxes are really about coal and electricity, and only have a marginal effect on fuel prices. Economist John Quiggan has done the numbers; see his blog.
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/05/29/carbon-taxes-and-fuel-prices/
Even a very high carbon tax ($100/tonne) only corresponds to 25 cents/litre on fuel. More likely levels of the tax might add ten cents per litre. The real losers will be oil companies – higher taxes will force them to cut profit margins. So of course their stooges warn of the dangers of carbon taxes.
Likewise the effect of a carbon tax on consumers has been exaggerated. It has a greater effect on energy suppliers to the grid. The final increase on retail energy prices (what we pay) has been estimated at around 20%.
Finaly, apart from the inflated costs of a carbon tax spread by Jensen and co, they make no mention of the savings, or the creation of whiole new industries (eg alternative energy) that generate jobs.
I wonder if Julie Bishop realises, that her obsessing over the Neal mess instead of waiting for the police investigation to wind up is plain outright boring, even Tony had had enough, i bet he’s sorry he invited her on tonight, he also went to pains to point out the exstaffer was paid for her A.C.A. gig, when Tony tried to get Julie onto another subject, unless i misheard, he told her she’d attacked the government enough, he also asked her if she was going to continue with the saga for the rest of this parliament even though they had’nt laid a glove on Rudd with it, it was an abysmal performance on her behalf.
Ive reached the stage that even if it did happen it’s been a trial by media –so Neal handled the whole thing clumsily–for god’s sake, the opposition big mouths have had far, far more to say and stuff up in the past, compare it to children overboard, AWB, invading Iraq, the Haneef mess etc etc and there were ministers involved in all of those fiascos, does the Neal and co stuff up really warrant the wailing and hand wringing going on–and WHY THE HECK ARE THEY TRYING TO HANG IT ON RUDD, I cant believe i was silly enough to sit up and watch that performance.
830
ruawake Says:
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:39 pm
The Climate Institute predicts the introduction of an emissions trading scheme will cost Australian households about $200 a year after five years in operation.
Dr Jensen says Australians will be lucky to see change from $1,000.
So the resident Lavoisier Group skeptic (Denis Jensen) doubts this report. Why am I not surprised.
…….
Somehow I think $200 is not going to be enough to really change behaviour when it comes to energy choices in your average household. You’re talking about less than $2.00 per capita per week. If it was that easy, it would have been done by now.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/23/2283498.htm?section=justin
Will the OPEC meeting discuss this?
The media’s attempt to change the public’s understanding of Rudd’s character and the character of his PM-ship by inventing the notion that he is busy doing nothing, or is chaotic or is whatever, as silly and based on personal prejudice as the notions are, end up causing themselves to believe their own inventions.
Such is the psychology of the defeated, tucked away in their sheltered corners of the media their desires become their imaginations become their reality. They will all convince themselves that Rudd is running around chasing his own tail because it comforts them to see it that way.
Their imaginations got carried away in recent times where they decided to adopt/accept/hope in the idea that this is a one term Rudd government and then next, that Rudd might not be there at the next election.
To them Rudd is failing, but none of this is based on any reality, at all. Apart from being the most popular PM since Hawke and, I would say will be respected for working hard and religiously keeping promises etc. [also we have a more terrible opposition than is usual].
There is not the slightest indication that Rudd shouldn’t be the leader for this term and at least another term – not in polls or in performance. So where does the notion come from except from disappointed Liberal supporters with a deep personal envy of Rudd – we even see some respected commentators tentatively take up the idea of Rudd not being there at the next election.
I wonder if some political commentators are getting so tied up in their own fabrications that they cant or wont be able discern them from reality.
They might be well aware of the game they are playing against Rudd and the govt now, but playing for so long it is not the public that has been affected, they have hypnotised themselves.
PS. Bishop has a number of flaws – especially holding on to workchoices IR>
The point of cap-and-trade systems has to be to reflect the cost of pollution in the market price of electricity and of goods and services supplied with electricity. The long and the short of it is electricity prices have to go up enough to do two things – make it feasible to create and deploy less-polluting generating technologies; and drive up the price of goods and services with high embedded pollution values in order to reduce demand for them. If cap-and-trade systems don’t do these things, there is no point in having them. They have to be designed to raise real prices enough to change the behaviour of both suppliers and consumers of electricty. Will the cost be just $2.00 per capita per week? I doubt it.
There of course may be another driver behind the MSM persistent and childish attacks on Rudd and Labor that has nothing to do with politics, the fear of the energy companies.
It would be interesting to know what the AFP would hear if they tapped the lines of the MSM and a number of oil and coal companies. We know this cartel and certain of the MSM spent a decade controlling the reporting of Climate Change issues and also Howard govt policy. SO they have a lot of power and have shown they will use it.
Are you advocating wire-tapping, Kina? And targetting the media and businesses? For political purposes? I would be more than a little startled if you were.
878
MayoFeral Says:
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:14 pm
vera @ 868 -
Dolly is definitely in NY for a job interview as the UN’s Lord High Peacekeeper of Cyprus no less.
The fact a war criminal and facilitator of corruption, whether deliberately or by negligence/incompetence, of the UN food for oil program could be considered for any UN role beggars belief. He should be banged up in a ICC cell in the Hague, not being considered for a cushy job in an organisation he badmouthed constantly during the 12+ years he was FM.
…..
But it is good politics, MF. Downer is a spent force in Liberal politics and it would be great to see him out of the Parliament. He was a very long-serving foreign minister. If he wants a crack at the job, it costs the government nothing to support him. Smart.
Did the Liberals say Rudd was a control freak? They should check out what their own Liberal Leaders are doing.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23908429-3102,00.html
blindoptimist @ 895 -
But it is good politics, MF. Downer is a spent force in Liberal politics and it would be great to see him out of the Parliament
That could just as easily be achieved by banging him up.
And while it might get him out of parliament it won’t get him out of the country. Apparently, much of the work could be done from here and he can still pursue “other interests.”
I the interview I heard, Dolly didn’t specify what the “other interests” were, but I bet being freely available to the media to comment on the government’s every foreign policy move is high on the agenda.
It might have been better to appoint him ambassador to some place where he’d be out of sight and not able to do much harm. Mongolia, perhaps, or Georgia! Or what about Britain. After a year of two of Dolly at the Court of St James, even the Queen will be insisting we become a republic!
894 blindoptimist:
No, this is not the USA or USSR.
And there would be no law broken if they were colluding. Far better to send an undercover ‘journalist’ to rat them out but even then it woudn’t affect there behaviour.
Now if an ex Howard government staffer who was witeness to the Green Mafia actually drafting / editing government policy/legislation, now that might entail some law breaking surely, but Im not sure what. Apparently the Green Mafia was not shy about bragging about their power within the Howard govt.
He could take up cabaret too.
judy barnes @ 888:
judy, the opposition are still using the Howard tactic of personal attacks on the character of PM Rudd. Guilty by association….Brian Bourke, Scores, control freak…yada yada ya………
If you remember this all started when he became leader in Dec 2006 and continued all through last year. The fact that the attacks failed dismally doesn’t seem to matter to them, they must be hoping something sticks.
I suppose by continually going on about the supposed character flaws of the PM they hope to get the perception embeded into the minds of the electorate thereby weakening him somehow. It’s all a bit silly really as PM Rudd seems to be playing with their minds still, and if the polls are any indication the electorate are smart enough to see through them.
891
Kina Says:
The media’s attempt to change the public’s understanding of Rudd’s character and the character of his PM-ship by inventing the notion that he is busy doing nothing, or is chaotic or is whatever, as silly and based on personal prejudice as the notions are, end up causing themselves to believe their own inventions.
Such is the psychology of the defeated,…
The psychology of the recently defeated.
Nelson is going overboard with this Neal thing. Now he believes in trial and sentencing by paid TV interview. He’s even promoted Neal to being a “key member” of the government.
Can Rudd actually throw Neal out of the Labor Party? Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn’t this require a meeting of the Federal Labor Executive?
I’d assume the PM would dearly love to see the back of “Igunagate” and Ms Neal, but I think he’ll have to wait for the N.S.W Police to conclude their investigation. Whatever happens, I think she’ll be disendorsed before the next election, and they’ll find a new candidate for Robertson.
Even if Neal was kicked out of the Labor party she would still be the member for Robertson.
Even if the privelidges comittee finds she mislead parliament they cannot kick her out of parliament.
The only way she can be forced out is if she is convicted of an offence that carries a 12 month or greater jail sentence. This would probably take a couple of years to go through the courts.
I would suggest that the best thing Rudd can do with Neal is to follow a clear process that the public at large understands and perceives to be fair.
His consistently made point that politics is a privilege, not a right, and everyone is required to uphold a certain standard.
Behind closed doors I think everyone knows she’s dog-meat, media and politicians alike, but bringing this issue to a swift end will just mean Fordham et al will just be chasing the next scandal even harder.
If anything, polling suggest that this could be a way to differentiate Rudd (and immediate team) from the riff-raff, not linking them as the opposition seem to be persisting with.
The longer it goes on the more likely Nelson, Turnbull, Hockey, Bishop and Abbot are to stuff a size 12 in their own mouth a-la-fuelwatch.
why am i not surprised.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/lib-racehate-scam-linked-to-mps-office-20080623-2vlb.html
#906
These Lindsay pamphlets ought to be turned over to Horatio at “CSI Miami”, or Vegas or New York or wherever, maybe ‘CSI Canberra’.
Within an hour [not counting commercials], as the programmes show, they could tell who, when, where and how these pamphlets were printed.
Not a problem.
The quote GB referred to in #902:
Nelson finally jumps the shark into Fantasyland.
There is no way known that a first term, backbench MP, no matter how we