Via Peter Brent at Mumble comes the news that Labor’s lead in tomorrow’s Newspoll is up to 59-41 from 57-43 a fortnight ago. More to follow …
UPDATE: The Australian report was apparently up first, which they interestingly seem to be doing a little earlier now.
UPDATE 2: Graphic here.
910 Comments
The Honeymoon is over … no wait … Ummm Dennis and Glenn, please tell me what this means…
Cant wait to see Shameahams spin on this one. SURELY, he cant spin this positively for Nelson and the opposition???
Gus from the previous thread – Peak Brenda
Roflol!
Everyone’s been on the comedy juice tonight!
I’ll throw this into this thread since it’s a bit relevant; putting the Newspoll into context, here’s the ALP TPP for every poll of 2008 from the three majors (Newspoll, Morgan and ACN) with a smoothed non-parametric regression line running through them to show us the likely state of play.
http://possumcomitatus.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/alptppjune16allpolls.jpg
They have to beat Mr Mumble now as well as Lateline. That is why their going earlier.
And if there was every any need for evidnece this poll shows Iguanagate is hardly the subject that is going to have people marching in the street. MP yells at staff in Pub. Big Woop.
The post coital thingummy is definititely on the truck that has no gas! Bring on the fourth beer, says I.
Possum, Can you plot where the honeymoon ended on the graph?
I think Nelson should stay. The time to roll him was when he first announced his surplus busting petrol cut. Too late now, let him stay till the next election at least. Hell make him leader for the next decade.
Lib primary vote at 29% OUCH
Just imagine the polls if Labor got an even break. As it is the full weight of the conservative commentators can’t drag Rudd and Co. down to the gutter which they inhabit.
Poss
i reckon a trade on a 90 day bill would be about right for Peak Brenda at the moment
though i heard a big deposit of Brenda was discovered, it turned out to be hot air
Andrew at 8
Ouch indeed. Is this an all time low for the Libs?
If you were to draw one of those lines that Bryan Palmer was so fond of then the Liberals might actually have a chance in 18 months. But it shows how good his lines were, given that the ALP won the election.
Also I wonder how Mr Palmer is going with Jenny Macklin as his boss?
Disagree with Kina on previous thread that the time is right to give Turnbull a go. This would be good for Labor because Turnbull would likely also be run over by the same Rudd popularity truck. He would be better waiting at least 12 months once some of the shine has come off. But as a Labor supporter, I hope they change now.
It’s the hybrid bump. Let this be a lesson to the Libs not to get cute with the manufacturing sector. Every man/woman working low paid service jobs still longs for the good old days.
IMHO
Peter Brent take a bow.
It’s been six weeks since the budget. Time for that bounce? And what a bounce!
Just imagine if no petrol/Neal crises!
14 – You could very well be right. The $35 Million might not have been needed but it demostrated that the government believes we should still be making stuff here, not just digging up dirt. I didn’t think attacking Industry investment was a wise move.
I like the Piping Shrikes view on Rudd bringing International factors into domestic politics.
It does put things into a perspective that puts less responsibility on govt, like fuel prices, credit crunches, reliance on China/Asia etc but also puts Rudd center stage in his own element. It is also difficult for the Opposition to counter this use of foreign affairs in the domestic context where Rudd is the consummate performer so far/
It may well be effective over time as Rudd Labor educate the public how the international environment puts some things outside the power of govt. Rudd also helped to undermine Howard’s economic credentials by continually referring to the mining boom, implying it to be the true source of our success.
http://thepipingshrike.blogspot.com/
3) International politics is bunk
Obviously politics here is influenced by international factors as much as any other country’s, its just that in Australia it has traditionally not been polite to mention it. Rudd has changed all this. While admitting there is less he can do domestically, Rudd has been keen to be seen as much more pro-active on the international stage.
BTW Glen Milne never responded to my email about his one-term government crap. With this newspoll now there is NO WAY he will respond!!
LMFAO! Do we need any more proof that the MSM(including sadly the ABC) is completely out of touch with the general public? Considering the barrage of negative shit that’s been heaped on Rudd & Co, you’ve got to say 59-41 is a damn fine poll figure!
A great example of why the Libs are trailing badly is today’s parl focus:
) v important ‘evidence’ (read speculation) about purported bad judgement.
Labor – Workplace reform, pacific free trade and use of seasonal workers from pacific nations and Minister off to OPEC meeting to discuss production/ oil prices.
Coalition – Speculation that Rudd is somehow tainted by phoning Neil and telling her to pull her head in.
Big Picture important stuff (read symbolic
Will someone please tell the coalition that substance cuts through more than petty political point scoring.
Andrew: The Poisoned Dwarf probably only replies to emails from Liberals, or those who agree with him! Good on ya though for sending it!
The opposition’s overplaying of the Neal thing shows how bad they are at opposition. Nelson may well have won brownie points ?women voters if he had of supported Rudd’s view that she needs help. But I guess a desparate man clutches at straws
The reason I want Turnbull to have a go now is that I doubt that he will do well and with him failing they may reach their bottom point sooner and then do so real reformation.
If he is successful then he will have some power to make changes, either way Nelson is damaging the brand.
Progressive, the astounding thing is that the media commentators never learn. Despite having egg on their faces so many times about Rudd’s honeymoon and all his so-called crises, they still dish up the same crap.
Which shows how important sites like this are in keeping our sanity in the face of the MSM barrage. See, the voters agree with US!!!
And, how increasingly irrelevant does INSIDERS look now? They wonder why Rudd won’t appear on that crapfest masquerading as a serious political show?
All the other polls show a slight movement to the Libs, Newpoll shows a slight move in the opposite direction.
I think this is an out-lier. Not that it matters much. All the polls show the honeymoon to be very far from over, and only marginal movements one way or the other.
Andrew: good point! Yes sir, thank goodness for this forum, and others like it!
Kina, I take your point that if Turnbull bombed now, the Libs might do some much needed soul searching, but why would you want them to do that and improve, and do you really think they are capable of it??
how do you say “what a pisser” in chinese? -:)
Kina at 24
With the way they are going, the ‘Brand’ will go the same way as fire brands on cattle and the animal rights groups will step in and seek that it be banned to avoid further inhumane treatment.
netvegetable, the importance of this poll it is counteracts the narrative that many in the MSM were trying to create ie. opposition improving, Rudd in trouble.
Dave55 at 6 – I’d love to except my stats programs dont have the Wishful Thinking 3.0 plugin.
Where is Glen these days? I bet he’d come on here and argue Newspoll did their survey in a safe Labor electorate LOL
32 Oh I agree! Like I said in the other thread: it’s going to fun watching Dennis trying to spin this one. But I’ve got a feeling that he will, as will most of the MSM.
Possum at 34
LOL – not worth the purchase price (how much is the OO now anyway to buy in hard copy?).
I have been a Liberal voter in the past, until after Howard’s first term. Howard’s era has seemingly wrecked the Liberal party which we will all suffer for iy. Workchoices was sign post at the extreme end of their empire.
A competent Opposition that can develop good policy and engage in solid debate helps us get the best policies and performance out of government it also gives us something to vote for should the govt be useless or corrupt. Thus I really want the Liberal party to smash into rock bottom so they can rebuild from scratch or at least if they cant do that at least become a little more moderate.
Can’t wait to see Brenda’s face tomorrow when he drags his sorry arse into QT
I wouldn’t be surprised is this is some sort of a turning point where the Opposition have had their fun along with the MSM and people have decided enough of this crap let the government get on with the job.
It is very destabilising for people and business to have every move by the Federal Government parodied and thrown into uncertainty. Life is tough enough without this never ending circus providing passive resistance to every decision taken.
just told the better half the numbers 41-59
“is that Brendas days left as leader”
roflol
Sorry to interrupt the gleefest for a moment, but did someone say the budget bills had been passed by the Senate holus bolus? Any details?
I was too busy laughing, sorry, considering the Newspoll result, when I heard, for it to sink in.
With the exception of Michelle Grattan, Peter Hartcher and George Meglogenis(yes, I’ve spelt his name incorrectly), the MSM are a bunch of hacks. Were so many of them degraded by the Howard era that they know no other way other than to cowtow to the Liberal Party?
Fulvio,
What’s your take on the proposed leadership Challenge by Anthony Fels against Sniffwell ?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/16/2276556.htm
I’m glad to see some political capital still evident, because there’s going to be some real hard stuff to negotiate with the population in the near future. Let’s hope Rudd can cut through the pap, or we’re all cactus.
As I said before, Rudd and Swan just need to play fuel prices straight, not pretend they can fix it, and manage inflation. People can see that Nelson has no credible solution, even if they don’t like the situation. The tax cuts will kick in after July 1 and people will notice that so the relief is in sight. If Rudd and Swan can show they can handle inflation without caving in to every interest group that complains they will actually come our of this looking a stronger government IMO.
For a bit more context with the Newspoll – here’s the ALP and Coalition primary votes from every poll of 2008 with a line of best fit running through them (again, a non-parametric Loess regression)
http://possumcomitatus.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/alpprimallpollsjune16.jpg
http://possumcomitatus.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/coalprimallpollsjune16.jpg
The Greens and others are powering on, that’s where the differential between the ALP primary and ALP TPP preferred is coming from.
From the last article I linked to, someone got their Liberal MP’s and former ACCC Chairpersons mixed up
44 & 47:
It’s no surpise that “the Greens… are powering on”, with the way the two major parties are acting, especially in WA.
Nothing better symbolises the total moral bankruptcy than the Chair Sniffer from WA!
So, Poss, perhaps a bit of a look at the demographic that’s moving between the ALP and the Greens?
Poss
I know sampling methods tend to overstate (city based) inor parties and understate the Nationals, but at what point can we say that clearly the Greens have more support than teh Nationals? Surely their long term slide is terminal?
I’d love to Harry – but I’d need a quarterly Newspoll breakdown for that as I dont trust the ACN breakdowns in isolation.
Will this poll prompt Nelson to ask questions other than about petrol prices in parliament tomorrow? Maybe he could ask the Prime Minister what we are going to do in 50 years when nearly all the world’s oil has been used.
The Greens have had more support than the Nats for a fairly long time – the problem for the Greens is that their support is spread thinly across nearly every seat, whereas the Nats support is clustered into a handful of seats.
Votes without seats are just votes. (with the obligatory two dollars something or other attached – what was it for the 07 election anyone?)
Hence the Greens never being paid much attention to.
The Greens will be in the spotlight come July and will be held accountable for the decicions they make in the senate. If they try flexing their muscles by blocking bills or having inquires into everything so the government is unable to govern propery their support may not continue to power on.
Is there any new polling on Gippsland? Any private polling been leaked lately?
Thanks Poss, bugger. It would have been interesting.
looks as though Honda are making the effort to help out Rudd on the fuel cost / climate change problem.
{Japanese manufacturer Honda has started the first commercial production of a hydrogen-powered car.
The medium-sized four seater is called the FCX Clarity and has a top speed of 160 kilometres per hour. }
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/16/2276538.htm
Frank, the most interesting moment on ABC news tonight, and a cathartic experience for Aunty, was the question put by their new, attractive newsreader, Karina somebody, to Peter Kennedy. I am not quoting her word for word but the gist of what she asked was ” Peter Kennedy, you have been a political reporter in Western Australia for over thirty years. In your experience have you ever come across a more disfunctional opposition?”.
Beautiful question, and one the likes of which no one in the ABC has had the coyones to ask in WA for a long time. The strangling grip of head office is surely being released.
To address your question,I think the local Libs have belatedly, after a long delusional belief that eight years of Labor was a temporary abberation, come to the realisation that bluster, bulldust and a compliant and favourable press is not enough. They need policies which go beyond a redneck response to the latest daily garbage spewed out in the West or on 6PR, and they need a leader, not a muppet.
Rob Johnston spitting the dummy, and Fels plaintive cry of “give us a leader, any leader instead of the caricature we have now” is symptomatic of this new found and desperate desire for political relevance and credibility.
Too little, too late for this election though…
Yep, it was an amazing question, and no doubt Karina Kavalia (sp) will be summoned to Kim Jordan’s office in the morning and will be “counselled”
Mind you, this Newsreader is an improvement on the last few they have had, and she actually has 2 brain cells to rub together.
yes the new ABC perth newsreader is one hot chick. She worked for the BBC, her brother is in oxford… you get the drift…
and as for the polling
hehaheahehaheahehaeh
KEVIN Rudd’s honeymoon with Australian voters is not yet over,…
This honeymoon has lasted longer than some marriages.
Just me
Perhaps the Liberals next chance is the Seven Year Itch? Looks like two terms.
When is a honeymoon not a honeymoon? It is silly to call more than 12 months of high ratings a honeymoon as though it were a popularity founded on novelty. Obviously there is more than novelty going on here, people must be seeing Rudd Labor as what they want most because he represents what they believe and want.
The MSM both before and after the election have tried to smear and undermine Rudd and Labor and yet they have maintained high ratings though now unsurprisingly beginning to fade. Just how high would these have been had the MSM been simply even handed on the issues and their representation of the govt position.
They have tried just about every trick to smear Rudd’s lofty position, even trying to praise Gillard as Rudd’s superior.
Why not, instead of talking about honeymoons, talk about what it is people prefer about Rudd and Labor? You would think the Liberal’s answers will be found in asking these questions – not the automatic gain say of anything Labor says.
I’ve just added an extended update to my struggling Gippsland by-election post, featuring YouTube clips galore.
Image link
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll-17jun.pdf
Kina at #24:
Far be it for me to carry the can for Brenda, but I don’t think he alone is to blame for damaging the Liberal brand. The damage was done by all of them, collectively, during their last term.
What a set of lousy buggers to cut pay and conditions during the longest uninterrupted boom in Australia’s history.
A blatant, unmandated attack on people’s pay packets is not the sort of thing you would expect people to forget (or forgive) for a long time. How can they live this down?
So I ascribe most of the blame to Howard, Andrews, Hockey, Costello, Andrews, and, yes, Nelson, for digging the hole into which they were dumped on 24 November.
Of course Nelson’s approach since then hasn’t helped either LOL.
I know I’ll face derision in saying this, but the LNP primary number in this poll seems to be out of whack, I think this poll is a bit wobbly.
Which is easier to believe:
Four primary points of L-NP vote has shifted to ALP and the ALP has lost four other primary points to the Greens/others, all in the last fortnight
OR
This fortnight’s polling was out of whack?
Maybe Nelson, Pyne, Turnbull, Truss, Downer et al are out of whack?
Squig, maybe LAST Newspoll was out of whack. There was some movement then.
Mr Squiggle,
Another way of looking at it is the trends projected in Possum’s site (links at 3 and 47 above). There has been a slight trend to the LNP on 2PP since the start of the year, a trend away from Labor on primaries, and a trend (perhaps now stalled) to LNP on primaries.
What does this mean? My guess would be that it means nothing more than some fairly rusted-on LNP voters, who’d never actually vote against the LNP in an election, returning to the fold after flirting with Rudd during the 3-4 months’ polling that immediately followed the election. In other words, the Libs are still miles behind, and would lose quite a few seats in an election held now, but reports of their impending extinction were premature.
No real surprise there.
For this mild trend to turn into something significant that actually means the next election is a contest, I’d imagine two things have to happen:
- a recession here in Australia (heaven forbid)
- a change in Liberal leader (surely only a matter of time).
The good thing about this poll is that we may have heard the last of the 5c reduction in petrol excise and the opposition to ‘Fuelwatch’
According to Michelle Grattan on Radio National this morning:
1. This poll is a disappointing one for “Mr 13%”
2. Rudd has hung Belinda Neal out to dry!
Newspoll may be an outlier, but where is the evidence that the public is as disenchanted with Rudd as the MSM would like us to think?
Hanging Belinda Neal out to dry won’t lose Rudd any votes. Let’s be honest she does need help. What do they expect him to do, protect her through thick and thin? How would the MSM spin it if Rudd actually had her thrown out of the Labor Party as the Libs seem to want instead of giving her a chance to make amends? Wouldn’t that really be hanging her out to dry?
NetVegetable@27 and Mr Squiggle@70 are spot on.
I thought Shanahan did a good job with his analysis of Newspoll this time. Of course there was absolutely nothing he could hang his conservative hat on this time but at least he was honest about it.
Give us a break! He was wriggling!
agreed Rx, nelson has copped too much of the blame and howard too little. remember the 2PPs were the same for the coalition in the last 12 months of government
squiggle, i hope the opposition continues to make excuses and be in denial as much as you. Yes, the polls are out of whack. Of Course. Dont change anything
I think by now even libertarian economists realise that the five cent fuel tax stunt is a waste of time that will merely bugger the budget. Again, I think that things will actually improve further for Labor once the tax cuts kick in, both because they will offer relief, and because it is a promise kept. The recent comments about finding a long term solution to fuel are the right message; there is no short term fix.
agree Andrew, Nelson is the scapegoat for the crisis in the Liberal party. But tough. Some Howard hack is probably next.
Please to see Shameaham giving a realistic account. Even he must have some standards!!
Yes this poll does seem to be a bit out of tune with the latest trend. You would have expected 57 or 56 to be consistent. Then again you wont know until a few more polls. Right or wrong it does make Nelson’s life hard and boosts the stakes of Rudd Labor to that high level for a little while longer.
Long way to go you and lots of things for Labor to do as well.
We will be waiting to see the qualities of Xenophon and if he is going to be a grandstanding thorn for Labor or an ally.
Re: Neal. Howard would have defended to the hilt. Rudd at least has acknowledged a problem and put in place counselling. thats real leadership.
after all, she is a backbencher of no importance and he cant sack her, she has to quit. Please to hear interviewer ask Hockey on ABC radio something like “arent Australian voters concerned about more important matters” Yes, indeed
Kina, you voted LIBERAL in the past?? My respect for you has just vanished!!!!
Another obvious question – how does the Gippsland result look on this poll? Again, I don’t think Labor needs to win Gippsland to do well; any further swing since the election would be a good outcome.
Rudd would I think have as a matter of course defend a team member as most leaders would, especially when the matter is trivial. That he didn’t do the natural thing is no doubt as some have suggested part of a bigger issue.
I always liked Howard’s communication skills before he became PM – that same technique I came to despise not much later. Then again at that time I hardly paid any attention to politics.
The one statement that really made me hate that man was when he said ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’ or something like that. Coupling that with his governments failure to attack the racist undertone of Paul Hanson really made me a permanent opponent of the LNP. The looking at his first speech in Parliament told me the man has never changed his spots.
Rudd/Gillard want to shaft the husband. He is in the way of their IR reforms.
So Rudd should back her how? Say everything is fine and dandy? Or do what he has done and given her a chance to work her way through the media frenzy. The only thing the media can do now is complain about Rudd’s handling of the matter not Neal herself. That would be seen as attacking a person while they’re down, and clearly she is. That’s not to say she is a bad person, in fact probably a good person in a bad place mentally at the moment. She needs help.
What, shaft JDB by shafting his wife? Yeah, that makes sense (sarcasm a plenty).
Socrates, if I’m correct, Labor would be almost winning Gippsland if this poll was reflected in the byelection? Personally I doubt they will win the seat, but any swing against the Nats would be a good result.
Gary: she got preselection for Robertson because the Labor Party hardheads thought she had no chance in hell of winning, it was done to mollify her Labor powerbroker husband. What to do with Belinda? Assuming the N.S.W police investigation clears her and Della Bosca, I’d make her work very hard as a local MP to avoid disendorsement. After all, the lady won a previous Liberal seat with a 7% margin, she obviously has some campaigning skills.
Because by making Neal a problem it makes an issue out of what happens in the Iguana club and makes it intolerable for DB. C’mon you don’t think Gillard would have been worried about this because of etiquette. She is an operator, she does not waste her time on trivialities!
Gillard spear-headed this attack on Neal. Why do people always underestimate her? She is one of the sharpest operators in the ALP.
Piping you could be right. Obviously you have more knowledge of the inside workings of the ALP than I do. We’ll just have to see what happens won’t we?
GB you and I and have discussed this here before. But I just don’t get what we are disagreeing about. I think Gillard sorted out Neal for a political purpose, to carry out her IR agenda. You don’t, is that right?
#86
The repentant sinner is more welcome in my house than the person whose soul is without stain.
I’ve said it before Piping I just think you’re reading too much into it. We’ll see. I think we are really on the same side here, it’s just the motive behind it all I have doubts about but, who knows, you could be right. It will all come out in the wash.
Fair enough.
I think Gillard handled the Belinda Neal stuff beautifully. And I don’t think there is any merit in ’sacking’ Neal – strong censure is about all that can be done, and it has.
It will be interesting to see how the new Senate plays out – should make for interesting machinations.
It would seem that the tacticians have decided that the Government should consistently guide answers to questions to the high ground. The tactic avoids descending into what Rudd yesterday described as sheap tabloid politics.
Judging from Newspoll it works.
Is that “sheep” of “cheap” BK? Either way you’re right.
Gary 104 – should be “cheap”. But you are right!
Gotta love Piers, he bites every time.
From me to our friend -
Piers,
“When every other journalist was panting after Rudd I believe I said he was a fraud.”
I guess not even your inane ramblings can dent Rudd’s “honeymoon”, given today’s Newspoll.
I think we really know who the fraud is and he works for the Daily Terror.
Have a happy day Piers,
Gary Bruce
His reply -
I am having a happy day, happier for your foolishness.
I reckon that, despite his bravado, Pies has had a bad day every day since Kev took over as leader of the ALP.
Dreams of a glorious thousand-year Howardreich shattered.
More of the same, as has been the case since January last year.
It’s been interesting watching the Libs this year. For mine, they have the air of the ALP 1996-2001 (though a more extreme version). Labor, along with many on the Left (including me), just couldn’t appreciate that Howard actually won elections – I mean we could see right through him, and surely it was only a matter of time before the public did also. Witness the rationalisations of JWH’s first few election wins: 1996, he won just because he wasn’t Keating; 1998, he lost the popular vote; 2001, he relied on racism to scare people into voting for him. It wasn’t until after 2004 when the Left started to appreciate that Howard, however inexplicably, was actually NOT hated out there in Voterland, and in fact, most people quite liked and respected him. It was only after Labor and the Left accepted this that they were able to defeat him.
Now look at the Libs today. Every Tory I know (not many, I’ll grant you, but a few) and hear obviously feels that “Rudd is a phony”, and it is only a matter of time until the public figures that out – hence the ridiculous stunts and point-scoring. All it will take is just the right stunt and the right time and voters will see Rudd for the phony he is. In thinking this, the Libs are making the same error as the ALP did – that of underestimating their opponent. Until they get over this conceit – that putting Labor in office was a mistake that should be rectified at the first possible opportunity – they will remain an irrelevance.
108
Hugo
Interesting idea. Certainly the opposition need to stop playing the man and start going in for the hard ball i.e. develop and sell some serious policies that can win over the electorate. The problem for them is that going in for the hard ball takes far more courage than sniping their opponents off the ball. They haven’t won the hard ball for many years now and I don’t think they have the courage to do so. Sniping is all they know and the public will not accept it.
Hugo,
So true. It’s the natural fault of new oppositions. We were a good government, the people will see how good we were eventually, when we prove that all the things we were saying about the new guy are true.
The Libs have to realise that people like Rudd. When you keep attacking someone that they like, they identify more strongly with him. The attacks are so counter-productive.
The story with Howard was similar. Despised as he was (and shall remain) by Labor partisans, most voters while they didn’t want him to be their best mate, they respected him and they were far from hating him. Labor really didn’t make any ground until they stopped using “Howard Hater” rhetoric to try and score points with the general public.
I think it’s a mistake made by all pollies and the political media as well. They can’t help but assume that everyone out there in voterland is paying as much attention to the daily cut and thrust as they are. It is why they seize on perceived gaffes and why the media is always talking about crises for one side or the other.
The simple truth is that the people who decide elections in this country aren’t paying much attention for the next 2 and a half years.
abc Online News site main story
photo of Neal with big headline
“Opposition to pursue Neal over ‘demon’ remarks”
I’ll probably be called a knucklehead again but bugger me if that’s the top newstory of the day I’ll switch to One Nation (joking)
If Libs had gained ground and Nelson improved PPM in newspoll that would have been the headline story of course!
Hugo @ 108 said:
And also until they are reconciled to the fact that the Australian public actually wanted to see some spending on infrastructure, health,education, childcare…etc,something that the previous govt under John Howard didn’t do to the satisfaction of the voting public.
How much of the increase in Labor figures is due to a lot of people realising that the Fibs are going to make them keep paying the Medicare levy? Nice tax cut removed by the Fibs? Stupid politics
Pursuing a personal attack on an obscure person who has no government position, the public knows nothing about and cares even less is quite pointless. Rudd has already dealt with it in the public eye with anger management advice.
The issue just doesn’t get into the mind of people. The Opposition’s attack seems to be about someone who argued with someone else and someone who said some rude words to someone else. Who is gonna care really?
It just helps Labor replace her with someone else come the next election.
Also the Opposition in making a major issue over a minor thing gives the impression they a small minded party. Shaking their fists in the crowd but actually not on the ground playing.
They have nothing else?
It is VERY difficult for an opposition to make significant gains in its popularity after being tossed out of government less than a year ago.
I suspect, however, that the opposition realize this but are trying to throw any mud, hoping to at least take the shine off the government so that when a real issue comes along, people will have less faith in them. Parts of the MSM are also playing into this game, especially from News Ltd.
It’s basically a progression from the game played with all the smear campaigns after Rudd took over Labor’s leadership back in Dec. 2006.
But it’s a LOSING game. And there are two simple reasons:
1) It assumes people are actively listening. They’re not.
2) It assumes people are dumb enough not to see the tactics when they are paying attention. They aren’t as dumb as the opposition and MSM think and they now look for the tactic, especially after 11 years of Howard where policy and partisan politics were merged more than ever before and where the MSM hailed Howard’s every move as a political “masterstroke”.
In 2008, people are politically jaded. The more a politician or party is seen to be trying to score political points or indulging in gutter level politics, the more likely it is to backfire on them and therefore help the other side.
The sooner the coalition and the MSM realise this, the sooner we have a real competition on our hands. But as long as they keep making the above assumptions, Labor will be in power for a LONG time, because Labor seem to understand today’s politics a LOT better, which is why they are in power everywhere with no signs of losing any time soon. The coalition is WAY out of touch, not just in terms of policy, but in terms of politics.
Noocat,
I agree that it is very difficult for Oppositions to make inroads against the incumbent Government and especially a new one. To me Opposition is being the turnkey with a thousand keys only one of which opens the magic door called “Government”.
So they have to try each and every key individually, hoping it will be the one that clicks in the lock and lets them in. Now a smart Opposition might try and sort the keys before they try them in order to stop wasting time. (develop policy)Unfortunately, Brendan and the Libs haven’t twigged so we see this daily procession of another dud key being tried. Seems the next trick is to find another turnkey. Obviously, the Brendan one hasn’t got the strngth in his wrists.
For those interested, the key that got Labor through the door was Workchoices. There is some speculation about whether Howard acyually unlocked the door for them.
This will infuriate the opposition. What they have tried to defend more than anything else since the election is their reputation (in their own minds) that they were brilliant economic managers. The RBA has given them a serious kick to the goolies:
http://business.theage.com.au/economy-under-control-rba-20080617-2rxy.html
Economy under control: RBA
quote…
In the minutes from the June meeting, the RBA said the surplus, as a ratio of GDP, was higher than expected and should not add to the demand forces in the Australian economy.
The Australian dollar dropped from 94.34 US cents just before the minutes were released, to 94.10 US cents.
For homeowners, the interest rate cycle could be nearing an end as the RBA emphasised the current interest rate of 7.25% could be cooling the economy by the degree needed to harness inflation.
The budget stance is a turnaround from recent years, when the Coalition budgets were questioned by the bank’s governors for creating fresh stimulus to the economy via generous tax cuts….
end quote
OK Mr Allbull – put that in your pipe and smoke it. Question time should be fun this arvo.
The Libs are like a jilted lover who just can’t accept that it’s over.
Flowers don’t work. Banners saying “I’ll always love you” on tollway overpasses don’t work. Reminders of how good the sex was – once upon a time – are a positive turn-off. Comparisons between the jilted lover and the new lover fail miserably. Reminders of happy weekends away in the Hunter Valley or the Gold Coast fall on deaf ears. Remonstrations that “I won’t bash you ever again” or “I’ll change, I really will!” or (even worse) “I’m the only man who understands you,” sink like lead balloons.
The only thing to do, at least in matters of the heart, is move on and get another lover who’s not awake up to your faults, or who even likes them. Only problem is that there ARE no other lovers. The Libs have only got the same voters to woo, and try to re-woo.
To get the old girlfriend back again you have to reform yourself, give up the booze, stop thinking you’re always right, case and desist with the nostalgic flashbacks, stop swearing on a stack of bibles you’d do it all over again the same way, admit your failings and stop calling her a deranged idiot for dropping you in the first place. Oh yeah, and stop slagging off the new boyfriend for being an intellectual nob who isn’t a loudmouth bully witha lot of rich mates, like you are. That’s why she likes him, you drongo.
Then, and only then, will you have a chance of winning her back.
Noocat wrote (#114): “In 2008, people are politically jaded. The more a politician or party is seen to be trying to score political points or indulging in gutter level politics, the more likely it is to backfire on them and therefore help the other side.”
Yes, this is spot-on. This was Keating’s mistake, and I suspect if the Opposition chooses Costello as leader, it might even get worse for them. Sure, Costello is articulate and quick on his feet, and unlike Nelson he actually knows what he stands for; but his performances on the floor of Parliament as Treasurer were cutting and sometimes a little nasty. People have had enough. The Rudd government has opted for the iron-fist-in-the-velvet-glove approach, and it seems to be working (so far).
115
Greensborough Growler
But GG some of the keys open doors that lead to nowhere except a fall into hot oil and the like. Those opposition idiots burst through each door and rush forward without properly evaluatiing if it’s safe to proceed.
I hope they keep it up as it’s a laugh a minute.
A disturbing trait of Turnbull is that if he doesn’t like the message he will attempt denigrate the messenger – i.e. the RBA and the Head of Treasury and the head of ACCC. The people they appointed.
It is not a good thing to undermine these institutions, the ones independent of government and in which we want the community to have confidence.
The Telegraph? or Hun? ran some very personal front page attacks on the RBA governor in order to help the LNP along.
vera, the ABC headlines are no longer a surprise. i have accepted that its good for them to attack Labor so Nelson stays and the Libs dont change their policies or come up with new ones
by the way, didnt neal refer to sophie mirabella’s baby as a demon? is there a problem with that??
96
The Piping Shrike Says:
Gillard spear-headed this attack on Neal. Why do people always underestimate her? She is one of the sharpest operators in the ALP.
Agree. Anybody who underestimates Gillard’s political and people skills (take note, Tony Abbott,) does so at their own peril. She is well on track to becoming Australia’s first female PM in her own right.
115
GG, a great analogy! Spot on.
It’s funny how yesterday, with the ACN poll, we were being told Nelson was making an impact with his 5c of BS and today, because of Newspoll, we’re being told he has failed to take advantage of the petrol issue. Which is it? The MSM are like a wind vane, they move which ever way the wind is blowing.
Steve K, youre right, the opposition have no set strategy. They seem to overreact and get hysterical over everything. They are obviously not following Rudd’s opposition tactic which was to choose your battles, and come up some key alternative policies
“I suspect if the Opposition chooses Costello as leader, it might even get worse for them.”
It would be a disaster for them, not just because of Costello’s offensive personal style but because he is so utterly identified with WorkChoices.
121
Andrew Says:
by the way, didnt neal refer to sophie mirabella’s baby as a demon? is there a problem with that??
Neal’s comments were both political idiocy (I mean, giving a free kick to Sophie Mirabella, how dumb is that?), and unethical. She deserves everything she gets over this one, including disendorsment. Rudd and Gillard are handling this well so far.
117
BB, in that case, the Libs have a helluva lot of reforming to do, which of course they won’t do as long as the MSM play into their games and continue giving them false hope of actually getting somewhere.
The fuel price issue is case study on Nelson and Co.
It is obvious to all that international forces control the price and all expect prices to keep increasing. We are all resigned to a high cost of fuel. They must be aware that government has little it can do over fuel prices and, that playing with excise just ruins revenue meaning they will either have to increase taxes or cut services.
What an opportunity for them this must be. On this issue they can release a Energy Security policy, affordable Mass Transport infrastructure policy, Fuel efficiency car policy, Alternate Energy policy, Emergency relief policy and whatever else you can think of related to oil and energy.
So what did we get? Cut excise by 5c whereupon the price of fuel went up another 15c.
Do you think I might have upset Kerry – Anne?
Kerry-Anne,
I guess you’re going to have reconsider your thoughts about Rudd’s honeymoon being over, at this point in tme, given today’s Newspoll.
Regards,
Gary Bruce
I never said his honeymoon was over, Gary. Not on the Inisders or on/in any other column, program, radio interview or news story. If you’re going to criticise, at the very least get your facts straight.
As for your previous email, I am not part of some pack. You have no knowledge of my 25 years of media reporting. You obviously don’t read anything I write in The Sun-Herald, or say on Sky or in radio commentary. If you knew anybody in politics or the media – which you clearly don’t – you would get a different view of my reputation than the one you clearly hold, after seeing me for a few minutes on one program.
Kindly go and bug someone else.
Kerry-Anne Walsh
Just Me,
Juvenile and puerile are the words that come to mind. Also, what has Mrrabella’s child done to be cast as a demon?
However, Mirrabella has form. She accused those on her own side as being terrorists for not supporting tougher Terrorist Laws and she is not above deriding others personally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdxoor0DyUE
does anyone know why the OO on line has no mention of the poll except for Shanahans sort of grudging blog, or a link to the graph, if it wasnt for this site and a few other knowledgable ones we would have no way of knowing all of the poll’s findings— are they trying to hide something ??????
GG 131
No argument there.
That is what I meant by political idiocy. In attacking Mirabella over her impending motherhood it gave her a rare opportunity to take the high moral ground and come out looking like good, which does take some doing in Mirabella’s case, given her odious track record. Mirabella has plenty of things she could be fairly attacked over, picking her unborn and her fitness as a mother was well and truly crossing the tactical and ethical line.
When you add in the Iguana nonsense, well, if I was a senior Labor politician I would not want the sort of political liability Neal is in my party either. She has largely blown her political career before it even really got started.
“Dwarf star no longer shines in pub” is the Breaking News headline. Can’t be talking about the Poisoned Dwarf, that’s where he shines brightest and often.
Landeryou has posted this update on the Mcewen situation.
http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/60016#
Swan is wiping the floor of parlaiment with Bishop and Allbull. He’s got his question time performance sorted out and has become a very good performer. I can now see why the party had the confidence in him to deliver the goods.
Steve K: 117
Happened to listen to ABC Midday Report whilst on the road. Their reportage of the RBA report had an added comment implying that whilst the RBA gave it a thumbs up it was only half-hearted thumbs up.
BB: 118
You beaut!
Hugo at 108 – love your analysis, but I wish you would keep it to yourself. The Libs might learn something from you! I’m sad to give them such a free kick.
How’s this for chutzpah?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2277332.htm?section=justin
Is that the same type of address Howard gave to the party saying they will be annihilated. At the time it was a blatant device to affect the voter and, its only purpose.
Mr Rudd has probably broken the record as most approved of party leader for the longest time and Nelson reckons that ‘voters are no longer starry-eyed about Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’.
Well that can only mean that Rudd’s figures are so high because people have seen ‘through’ him and worked out that he is exactly what they want.
Hockey is at it again in QT. He has moved a motion of dissent againt the spreaker. How many more times will the Libs spit the dummy?
GG, Nelson really has lost the plot. I guess he’ll say and do anything to divert attention from his standing in the polls.
While Hockey fumes the government members walk out. Too funny for words. Ol’ Joe is about to suffer a fizzer.
Can I point out that Nelson is killing himself off. He isn’t asking nearly enough questions in Question Time. I can remember when Labor was in the doldrums after the 1998 election that Beazley would ask every second opposition question. Sometimes he would ask three questions in a row to various ministers.
On another matter, Howard’s department was directly involved in the Haneef affair. Which suggests Howard instructed Andrews to cancel the Visa, which he said he didn’t do.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23878434-5005962,00.html
Intersting news from the Haneef CAAT inquiry. Appears honest John might have been involved up to his elbows. Who’d a thunk?
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23878434-5005961,00.html
Shows On,
snap!
The Haneef Affair was an attempt at a “terrorist dog whistling” exercise by the Howard government to try and get themselves re-elected. They’ve successfully used the tactic before, but this time it went horribly right, and for Dr Haneef was cleared.
Home from work today and watched QT. I particularly liked the cuts to the Smirk, who, his smirking days behind him, was so obviously, totally and thoroughly miserable. Took my mind right off feeling crook. It must be a special kind of hell for him to be taunted on his so-called economic credentials from the gov’t. benches. The gov’t. are clearly having a whale of a time.
That was a big problem during his campaign – people were suspicious that everything might be trick. The Intervention people saw as an election ploy, the same with Haneef. Howard’s reputation came back to make him impotent.
G.G. at 140. More like completely delusional, and if their performance in QT was anything to go by, completely ineffective.
I hope the PM doesn’t find a wet patch on his chair. It is only during divisions that Nelson will get to sit in the PMs chair. Did anyone notice if Allbull and Nelson had a pushing match to see who’d get to sit there?
Looks like Kev has wiped the chair with his hanky.
Constant Lurker (139) – yes, good point, though I haven’t seen so many Tories perusing these pages lately, so I probably got away with it!
However, it’s not tactics that will cost the Libs future elections, but policy, and I think that they have yet to fully grasp what an albatross that WorkChoices will be for them over the next few elections.
The Libs beat Labor over the head with “18% interest rates” for years – they probably won the 2004 election on this theme, even when these rates were actually in place in 1989. That’s 15 years after the fact, which means that WCs could well be toxic for the Right until well into the 2020s.
True. But for me, the sad thing is that the whole affair damaged our security agencies, and made them less capable of doing their job of protecting the country.
Obviously the possibility that that could occur didn’t bother Andrews or Howard.
Kina @ 89-
The one statement that really made me hate that man was when he said ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’ or something like that. Coupling that with his governments failure to attack the racist undertone of Paul Hanson really made me a permanent opponent of the LNP.
That’s when the Bastard began loosing me too and then solidified my disgust by starting an illegal war. He makes me wish for an afterlife,. One in which cretins get their just deserts.
And now for something completely different –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQJ9Xp0xxU&eurl=http://www.crikey.com.au/video.html
There is no afterlife MF but there is the here and now and Little Johnny will be suffering each and everyday. The idol he had built in honour of his life (i.e. his reputation as a man of the people and the great economic manager) is being smashed into tiny pieces. He is a man without principle who acted against his fellow Australians by the participation in an illegal war which you rightly point out and his manic hatred of working people. The only value working people served in his universe was that every three years they had an opportunity to vote. Workchoices was mean, nasty legislation that will haunt his party for a generation and beyond.
MayoFeral and Kina @ 89
The one statement that really made me hate that man was when he said ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’ or something like that. Coupling that with his governments failure to attack the racist undertone of Paul Hanson really made me a permanent opponent of the LNP.
Even though I am a Labor supporter I agree with what Howard said back then,
What do you want?
All these forigners comming here who dont asimilate, we will become the minority in this country if we are not careful because of some minorites who want to change our culural identity and way of life will will become out numbered by them soon and will be like a minority in our OWN COIUNTRY
159
Good grief
160 Local – yeah
Bushfire Bill at #118
Please make sure you save the texts of your comments such as that one.
One day I’m going to request “The Collected Thoughts of Bushfire Bill” and I reckon I won’t be the only person who will want them.
160,161
You are very naive
DO u not know whats happening in France, Belgium the Untied Kingdom and those countries
The future generation of Australians will pay the price for your naivity
Can I say that I am so chuffed we are back to watching Monday’s Lateline to hear what are the latest Newspoll figures.
After doing this all last year I thought that I wouldn’t have to do this until next year.
But here we are writing reams of comment on Bludger again, with the same people and the same arguments….I’ve missed it really.
My hunch is that Rudd 2008 is a sort of a repeat of Howard 1996. He also had a number of ministers resigning in the first term because of breaches of Ministerial conduct codes etc.
I feel Nelson is being given a much better treatment that Beazley ever did as first term opposition leader. But then again is my bias. Can’t wait for those narky comments from Fran on Radio National Breakfast again. “Rudd dropped two percentage points, this is disaster for Labor!” Isn’t the ALP policy to wipe the ABC board clean and make it independent a la BBC? I thought that the Janet Albrechtsen/Keith Windschuttle influence would go away once Howard was gone. But it hangs around like those leaky and sneaky farts I make when I hide in the study.
Granted Rudd has come in when the world economy with inflation pressures, US economy in recession and petrol prices reaching record highs is not in as good shape when Howard was in. He certainly was a lucky bastard.
I think Rudd hasn’t helped with his school masterish comments about making the public service work harder etc.
Labor will lose some seats next election. But it would require a disaster of Withlamesque proportions to lose government.
OK I’ll bite.
Steveo (159) – the issue wasn’t so much about immigration control, it was that our elected government was blatantly pandering to xenophobia to divide the opposition (not only Labor) to win an election. That’s not leadership, that’s pure cynicism. And for what? Immigration is at record highs, and it grew in a big way post-2001 (not that I personally have any problem with that).
So even if you think that Howard was operating under some cloak of principle way back then, subsequent evidence would suggest that he took people who think the same as you for absolute fools.
Um hello, all Governments determine who comes here and who doesn’t. It is called administering the migration act!
Of course the Howard government couldn’t even do that right. They administered a system that locked up an Australian citizen in immigration detention, and deported another to another country! But don’t worry about that, it only cost tax payers $6.5 million of compensation pay outs, including paying Viviane Solon $4.5 million, and all her medical expenses for the rest of her life.
So Howard’s base political claim designed to appeal to racist sentiment goes down as nothing more than another broken promise.
Hugo
Yes I quess you have a point in regards that Howard did have high imigration levels
I just wish both Labor and Liberal would stop letting these people in to our country when no one wants them here
They hate our culture, way of life, they only mix with each other, why cant we only allow people who can speak in English in here
I mean what use is it to let people here who cant even talk?
No one wants them here yet we the Australian people dont have a choice because its policy of both the political parties
Apperantly not Steveo, I had no idea Belgium was becoming untied
Ooooo lookout the dreaded them are invading – hide your wallets and lock up your daughters.
The vast majority of Australians are immigrants, I think the last census showed over 22% are born overseas.
But its OK as long as they are not “Them”.
ShowsOn
I wasnt refering to those individual cases that you mentioned
I didnt even think about them when I was making the post yes he was wrong with Corneilla or whatever her name was
But thats a different issue all together and I wasnt talking about that
Actually Howard was only stating what was fact when he said something like ‘we will decided who comes to Australia and under what conditions they come’.
We do control our own immigration program and we also have international obligations that we adhere to. The detention centers, Tampa and so forth were simply devices for running a xenophobic ticket.
The format of the statement I believe he stole from Pauline Hanson but I don’t recall exactly how she used it.
My problem with Howard is that he was using the statement and environment of the time to evoke racist fear in people. Appealing to the lowest demoninator. Prepared to demonise and punish harmless people for the sake of political gain.
As it turned out Howard I believe was increasing immigration whilst making it appear he was ‘protecting’ Australia from being over-run by others not like us.
The Howard government rightly moved to the highest levels in the history of the federation. They will only be surpassed by the coming years. Of course they didn’t talk much about that. Instead they made people think they had a more restrictive immigration programme when they didn’t. It fooled a few suckers though…
You mean like me? Both my parents are migrants thank you very much.
Thanks very much. One of my parents couldn’t speak English before she came here. She can speak, read, and write english now. Does that mean she is allowed to stay? Oh, she also happens to be an Australian citizen. Does that mean she can stay, or should she be deported like Vivian Solon?
Get over yourself. We are a nation of migrants. Even the Aboriginals probably came here from Asia via Africa. The First Fleet came from the U.K., the 1950s boom was created by European migration. You can’t talk about Australian history without talking about people from other parts of the world coming over here in search of a better life.
It is not a different issue. Our immigration system in the 1980s was cleaned out of all the bribes and sleaze and pay offs. Robert Ray fixed it so people got to come here based on merit. But the Howard government put the sleaze back in, while suckers thought they actually knew what they were doing on immigration matters. The cases of Cornelia Rau and Vivian Solon demonstrate they had no idea what they were doing.
We wont see the politics of fear and racism again for a long time, not until the LNP are back in power maybe.
steveo at 159. I don’t know where you live, however, I live and work in the Western suburbs of Melbourne, where we have people from all over the world who rub along together quite well. A culture is not a static, homogenous thing. It changes over time in response to many influences. My immediate work group has Skips, Irish, New Zealanders, Indians, Iraquis, Vietnamese, Sri Lankans, second generation Italians and Greeks. You have no idea how stimulating it is to be able to work with such an amazing range of people, with such extraordinary stories of themselves, their families, their countries and cultures. We have fantastic lunches once a month, when we’ll all cook food from the different cuisines, tell jokes and generally have a pretty good time together. Acclimatisation to a host culture takes time and happens at different rates depending on a range of factors, certainly one of which is how open the host culture is to getting to know and understand those new to the country. BTW, what do you think the Aborigines might think about the British and Irish readiness to assimilate?
Steveo, let’s get this straight. The only people who can talk are the ones who speak English? The others are mute?
Harry 174
Is there a vacancy where you work? I need a job and your workplace sounds fun.
ShowsOn
No your mother doesnt need to go back to where she come from
But look times change and NO ONE today should come here unless they can speak in English
Your mother probably came here with all good intentions to learn English back in the day
But alot of people comming here today possably from different ethnic groups that you mother is from have no intention what so ever to asimilate or learn English they only want to speak in their own forign languages and only stick with their own ethnic/cultural groups this creates tenisons in society, look at the Cronulla riots in 05 when us Australian finally fought back years of harasment and intimidation to show we are not scared of these bastards who hate us for nothing
Do you see the point I am trying to make?
apres
YES as far as I am concerned people who live here who CAN NOT speak in ENGLISH
and I am not refering to people who are bilingual)
are MUTE absolutly 100 percent
The language in this country in ENGLISH so if they cant speak in ENGLISH they CAN NOT TALK
Steveo, given that our economy is based on growth and without growth we go down the gurgler, how do you propose we continue growing with our meagre population without immigration? We have a skills shortage NOW. Employers are struggling to find employees NOW. What’s the answer?
Steveo
Often the first generation of an ethnic people tend to stick together and learn little English. However, their kids assimilate pretty well. But if we treat them as second class then even the kids will stay in their ghettos.
A lot of the first generation Italians and Greeks still don’t speak English too well, but they made a bloody big contribution to Australia.
I can’t even believe we are debating this!
neophyte, depends on what your qualifications are. steveo, I think the Cronulla riots were as much about the resentment that grows from marginalisation as anything else, that and xenophobic reactions being stirred up by the likes of shock jocks such as Alan Jones. There were fears something similar might happen in Melbourne, and some attempts by the local shock jock equivalents of Jones, but equally, there were people such as Jon Faine (local ABC) who took a lead in opening up publicly aired forums which fostered discussion and exploration of both difference and sameness. There was also a lot of leadership from different Muslims from different backgrounds as well as others that actively pulled the teeth of any set up of them and us.
Jovial Monk, neither can I.
steveo
you are a waste of space
i am 4+ gen white anglo
but nob jockey you dont deserve membership of the human race
diversity gives a society its elan,its special moments
like harry i work ina mini UN and love it
ps were you oneof the inbreds who supported pauline, maybe you should read this
http://www.101usesforajohnhoward.com/2006/12/20/59-pauline-hanson/
we true AUSTRALIANS ALL will never let rascism rule politics again!!!!!
Gary Bruce
Look I am not against imigration at all I think we should have big imigration levels but only people who can speak English and if they are from a country who culture is different from ours are willing to leave that culture behind and adapt to Australian culture
I dont want to bring people in here from certain Religous groups whos way of life and way of thinking is so different from ours and their culture doesnt meld in with ours, they want their women hidden behind rags I mean dont exept that in our country, thats not Australian culture or Australian values,
I mean why risk putting our country at risk with bringing religious groups here that are so full of hate when we can just let other people in who we know will asimilate like British, Europeans, Some Asians etc
tjis is our country we have to stop being politically corrct if the Majority of Australians dont want muslim imigartion here then then thats what should happen
What do you mean “us Australians”? Us Australians includes people born here, but also people born overseas like my parents who came here with their parents because they thought their families would have a better chance at a good life here. Us Australians means people who took out citizenship today.
I have absolutely no sympathy for people on either side of the Cronulla riots. They are all thugs who reverted to violence because they didn’t have the intellectual capacity to argue a political position using words and ideas. The ‘Australians’ were abusing the flag in service of racists sentiment. The Lebanese who carried out revenge attacks against people and property are just as bad, but no worse.
Moreover, the ‘Australians’ in the Cronulla riots were rioting against people who spoke English. So that ruins your argument that this is about language skills.
I agree with you that migrants should have basic English skills so that they can integrate into the community, and have a good chance of getting stable employment. Guess what! The Government provides free English lessons to all migrants. That is part of administering the migration act.
You are making a mistake that provided migrants have english skills everything will be OK for them. Migrating to another country is an inherent disruption that some migrants never fully recover from.
What? They can’t even talk to each other in their first langage? You’re being absurd. You are simplifying this issue to the point of ridiculousness.
All I can hope for is that the “Not one of us” argument is relegated to the garbage bin of history.
I have lived in 19 different countries and I can assure Steveo that the vast majority of people are exactly the same – they want the same things – they want a peaceful life and to see their kids prosper.
Howard increased immigration levels to record numbers at the same time he slashed funding for english language courses for migrants.
gusface
I am not racist
I dont care what race someone is
I only care that they asimilate into our country
I hate Multiculturalism
These people should adapt to our culture as this is our county
All u left wingers/bleeding heart whinge at people like me for trying to protect our Australian values
DO u know what would would happen in some of those Arab countries if we went over there and not asimilatied into their way of life, we wouldnt even have the option of being Christian
But I never hear u lefties whinge and complain about that, i wonder why?
How is this different to what we currently do? You are arguing against nothing.
Hang on a second. Our constitution has a freedom of religion clause. Do you honestly think the Government should be able to force people to follow particular religions? That doesn’t sound particularly democratic.
Oh, so now you write what you really mean. You are against Muslims coming here! Well at least you have the guts to say it.
I’ve got a better idea. We shouldn’t judge people based on their religion, but on the merits of their characters.
Steveo, Do you know anything about the history of migration to Australia? The Chinese on the goldfields in Victoria, the Pacific Islanders captured to work on the canefields in Queensland, the Sikhs to work the farms of the middle NSW coast, the displaced persons from WW2, the Afghanis to provide camel trains across the desert in the NT, the Vietnamese from the Vietnam War? BTW, many Aboriginal people in remote communities don’t speak English.
What I’m suggesting is that migration is rather a complex area, and we also have obligations under international treaties in relation to refugees. That some migrants become marginalised, resentful and angry, whether in Sydney or France, might prompt some questioning of why this should be the case, rather than simply accepting “they” don’t like “us”, whoever, “us” are.
Oooooo I see its the nasty Rag Heads Steveo does not like.
steveo
what is an “australian”‘ value
um re “arab” countries which ones? if such a thing exists anyway!
Hey Steveo be careful who you call a left winger. You don’t have to be aleft winger to disagree with you. Hell, the Libs disagree with your view.
ShowsOn
What do you mean “us Australians”? Us Australians includes people born here, but also people born overseas like my parents
well thats a good point u raise because thats anothing thing that pisses me off these people who were born here dont want to be considered to be
AUSTRLIAN
they want to be LEBS OR LEBANESE
and that upsets me
I mean why is it that people who arent of british or Irish decent usually dont call themselves Australian?
you talk to a Leb he will always call himself a Leb never Australian,
I mean you will never hear an Anglo Australian who was born here say Im British or I am Irish
I dont know why I have always wondered this can someone explain to me why this is the case?
gusface
Saudi arabia would be an example
You are simplifying the issue too much.
People can identify as being from more than one country. My mum has been here most of her life, but if you asked her she would say she was BOTH Greek and Australian. You can be more than one thing because people are COMPLICATED, and have multiple allegiances. It doesn’t make them any less Australian if that bothers you.
The problem is you have killed your argument. First you say this is about English skills, then you say it is about religious affiliation. Now you say it is about a state of mind, about what national allegiance people think they have.
You don’t have an argument left, because you’ve bogged yourself down with racism and religious hatred.
Yes. My Dad. He was born in England, but lived here for about 45 years before becoming an Australian citizen. He only did that so he could get a job in the public service.
Personally I thing that was absurd, and would’ve thought that after that much time he would’ve done it on his own accord, but he obviously didn’t think it was that important.
Incidentally, he was able to vote in elections because he was a British subject. I would be more than happy to take that right away, in my opinion only Australian citizens should have the right to vote.
But I guess it is OK with you for him to stay in Australia because he can speak English, and isn’t a Muslim.
SHOWSON
How is this different to what we currently do? You are arguing against nothing.
**Well then why are there so many people who cant speak in English allowed to come here ? and they dont leave their culture behind they bring islam or what ever it may be here with them
Hang on a second. Our constitution has a freedom of religion clause. Do you honestly think the Government should be able to force people to follow particular religions? That doesn’t sound particularly democratic.
**I dont care about that If the majority of Australians don’t want them here then thats what should happen
I never said the government should force particular religion onto anyone, when did I say that? I am athiest but I acept this is a Christian country
Well it is democratic I can tell you because the MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS DO NOT WANT MUSLIMS HERE
Oh, so now you write what you really mean. You are against Muslims coming here! Well at least you have the guts to say it.
I’ve got a better idea. We shouldn’t judge people based on their religion, but on the merits of their characters.
**Yes I know not all muslims arent bad
But its like saying this, Ill make a comparison
*there is one brand of eggs that u know on average there will be 1 bad egg out of 12
*and another brand of eggs where u know there will be 5 or 6 bad eggs out of the 12
What brand of eggs will you buy ?
Or which bad eggs are you going to let into the country Does that make it a bit easier for u to understand?
Steveo Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Well Steveo I hate people who hate multiculturalism, and i bet you don’t care.
What do you like? Red necks driving Utes perhaps.
Steveo, I’d give it up if I were you. You’ve well and truly painted yourself into a corner. You did not reply to my question about whether you know anything about the history of migration in Australia, so I’ll assume you don’t, and suggest you would be doing yourself a favour if you actually made an effort to learn some.
Harry @ 174
I’ve lived in this wonderful country for 45 years (from the UK) and became a citizen ages ago but I’ve never heard of “skips”. Where do they come from?
btw it does sound a great place to work!
Cheers.
Yes. My Dad. He was born in England, but lived here for about 45 years before becoming an Australian citizen. He only did that so he could get a job in the public service.
**Did u actually read what I said WHO WAS BORN HERE, when u said your dad was born in ENgland u moron
People can identify as being from more than one country. My mum has been here most of her life, but if you asked her she would say she was BOTH Greek and Australian. You can be more than one thing because people are COMPLICATED
**And I was saying that in regards to people who were born in Australia and lived their whole lives here who refere to themselves as another nationality I think its wrong
The problem is you have killed your argument. First you say this is about English skills, then you say it is about religious affiliation. Now you say it is about a state of mind, about what national allegiance people think they have.
**And no I actually do have an opinion on a whole range of things you idiot it was never about one single aspect of the conversation
Steveo
i repeat-what is an “australian value”
regarding Al Saud and its artificial structure (created by the west incidentally) unfortunately an amount of repression does happen,but as you well know Nth Korea is the most abusive,but still religion goes on (as one m luther put it so succintly-in the heart)
If we are the Pinnacle of civilisation,surely the very strength of our structures and laws will,in effect, allow those peoples from less enlightened regimes to actively embrace and reinforce these institutions,perhaps even enlightening those peoples from whence they once had come from.
dont be scared of the boogeyman steveo,it only holds you back from learning and growing
I think this sums up steveo’s point leadership
Steveo @ 159 -
MayoFeral and Kina @ 89
All these forigners comming here who dont asimilate,
You mean like you or your ancestors? Or do you live as the Aboriginal tribe in your area lives (assuming your ‘foreigner’ ancestors didn’t kill them off) and abide by their culture and religious beliefs?
we will become the minority in this country if we are not careful because of some minorites who want to change our culural identity and way of life will will become out numbered by them soon and will be like a minority in our OWN COIUNTRY
Same answer as per above.
However, what I object to is imprisoning and torturing genuine refugees for base political purposes. The proof that most were is that they eventually accepted as such even by the Howard government.
I also object to imprisoning and torturing a few, mostly genuine, refugees while perhaps 200,000, mostly non genuine, true illegal immigrants came here unchallenged by air on tourist visas. On Immigration’s own figures at around the time of Tampa there were at least 60,000 mainly European and North American illegal immigrants living here. At the time most commentators with expertise in this area believed the numbers were at least 200,000.
I further object to my tax dollars being wasted on the travesty that was the detention centres and, particularly, the Pacific ’solution’!
Oh, and for the record, I arrived here on a boat, too. One chartered by the Menzies government. And one I might add that was so rickety that it promptly sank not long afterwards – shades of the Sieve X!
There were undoubtedly many people then who had the same opinion of me and my family as you have about more recent arrivals. They may even have been right.
Harry “Snapper” Organs
You moron the imigration I am talking about now is about massive immigration of a huge scale I am not going to talk about 200 Chinaman who migrated here during the goldrush, it is irrelavant to what I am talking about now u fool
MayoFeral
Look dont give me this shit about how ohh we never asmilated into the Aboriginals culture
So why should people comming here today asimilate blah blah blah
that argument just proves how moronic u are
Stevo @ 196
“the MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS DO NOT WANT MUSLIMS HERE”
Stevo, this sort of unsubstantiated commentary about something as sensitive (and important) as race relations in Australia won’t wash here I’m afraid. PB contributors tend to be a little more cerebral than the hot-tempered monkeys on tabloid chat forums.
So here’s your chance: where’s your evidence?
Allan back at 199. Skips are Skippys=identify as Australians, from Skippy the Kangaroo T.V. program.
gusface
Australian culture is speaking in the National language
“Australian English”
It is women not wearing head gear
It is not intimidating people for no reason
i thought it was cause we lived in skips (bins)
steveo: Dat zegt u dat zelfs als u uit een regime komt dat u voor godsdienstige of politieke geloven moord, als u don’ t spreekt Engelse don’ t denkt zelfs na hier komend. U moet aan mijn Soedanese buur over hoe spreken dankbaar sommige mensen bij wordt gegeven een kans bij vrijheid zijn. !
Sondeo, that is swine Dutch!
‘don’t'??
Everyone’s favourite Chair Sniffer Buswell survived another leadership spill today. No numbers, so no idea of how close it was.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/buswell-survives-leadership-spill-20080617-2rwq.html
Stevo,
when you stated that “the MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIANS DO NOT WANT MUSLIMS HERE”, were you referring to a specific quantitative survey of any kind? If yes, can you please provide details?
Jovial Monk: more like the online translator version of:
steveo:So you are saying that even if you come from a regime that is murdering you for religious or political beliefs,if you don’t speak english don’t even consider coming here. You need to speak to my Sudanese neighbour about how grateful some people are at being given a chance at freedom.
sondeo Says
I can do that too mate
kjdf sek fo;eijf eiohf ewouhpweriogj[wwkef ;oresu k srfhow hdiqewh rfj crtk w skjfliurt bhkw guevoi nrgne c sghbn sdgiwlufb erhlujb cnwakulefe rsgvjbgli uw5ueue hlguh elugh elhgliuebejerk.gb vnweahgfekljn
In Dutch Scrabble, are J’s and K’s worth 1?
Steveo at 204, I think when you descend into name calling, you demonstrate your inability to mount and sustain an argument. I was not referring to the specific Chinese on the goldfields events, but to the historical complexity of migration of peoples from different parts of the world for different reasons, sometimes their own and sometimes propelled by the needs of the country, both for ill and good reasons. The compelling current national need for migration is the skills shortage. Do you have an alternative solution to the skills shortage?
If you treat people with fear and suspicion, how do you think they will react to you? If you treat people openly and with a willingness to learn about them, and for them to get to know you, how do you think they will react?
Steveo @ 193 -
well thats a good point u raise because thats anothing thing that pisses me off these people who were born here dont want to be considered to be
AUSTRLIAN
they want to be LEBS OR LEBANESE
and that upsets me
I mean why is it that people who arent of british or Irish decent usually dont call themselves Australian?
My best friend is a Brit who refuses to take out Australian citizenship, even on a dual citizenship basis, and classes himself as British even though he’s been here for upwards of 50 years. IME, he isn’t the only one.
No this is closer to steves point of view
Inner Westie
I am just trying to find it now if i can
It was a ninemsn poll a while back
and it was extremely high the amount of Australian that wanted to stop muslim imigration I dont know if i will be able to find it by ill do my best
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
This is actually on topic and not taking the bait from some pretend troll.
From News.com:
That’s funny.
“He did not refer specifically to today’s Newspoll “. I bet he didn’t.
“Wear thin”? “No longer starry-eyed”?
Good God, if today’s Newspoll is wearing thin, I’d hate to see a “surge of popularity”.
Brendan has been caught out reading the prepared statement he thought he’d be reading after being told by Dennis and the rest how wonderful he was; what a political genius he was.
Psssst! Brendan! It’s in the other pocket.Who does this bloke think he’s fooling? The Hard-Heads in the Lib right? The voters? Himself?
Poor tool.
MayoFeral Says
I am talking about people who are born breed in Australia not in Britian or Lebanon
@ 215
Well, there’s our evidence. The Young Liberals have released their latest lab test. He’s a bit bristly and quick to insult (and claims, oddly, to be an atheist), but with time and a little more tweaking he’ll be just right for the job. (Or she, or it.)
You little beauty!
Actually steveo has raised a really good point
the pig ignorant,unherded,unfed,unfeted,unfettered,dare i say it,unloved are rutting around seeking some form of relevance
oh the pain the pain
where is our hero
johnny?
bwaaa i want johnny
208
Steveo Says:
June 17th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
It is women not wearing head gear
Steveo, If you think a ninemsn poll will produce anything other than howls of derisive laughter from around here, you’re in for a surprise.
Steveoeooeoeo,
Look at this, mate:
http://www.nma.gov.au/collections/collection_interactives/harvest_of_endurance_html_version/explore_the_scroll/australian_gold_rush/
Please try to build an educated argument, no matter how difficult you may find the task.
{It is women not wearing head gear }
What, like the women & girls I used to see in church wearing veils, like the nuns, both RC & Anglican who used to wear head gear, like the nurses & matrons who used to & in some cases, still do, wear head gear.
And there are many more examples like the brides you see every saturday at most churches in the country etc.
Grow up mate and get a life. This post is about the latest Newspoll, I thought. not an avenue for your juvenile rantings.
Steveo,
don’t bother looking for the ninemsm poll. Along with all quality uncontrolled online surveys, it’s not worth the binary code its written on.
That you’re prepared to quote this stuff as fact is simply bizarre. But having said that, if 70% of respondents claimed Mark Latham’s man boobs were unpleasant to think about whilst eating dim sims, I’d take that as gospel.
charles @ 219
yep
Why is everyone in here Left wing for?
This aint fair nor ballanced
Your all bleeding hearts determined to see Australia go to the gutter hole just like France, Netherlands, UK, Belgium etc
Barcelona Tonight doing another hatchet job on the Feds, this time re childcare.
Maybe the reason for the Australian public’s obstinate refusal to stop liking Kevin Rudd is that they don’t like the media telling them what to do? Especially if doing so involves facilitating Brendan Nelson looking smug?
Why label anyone here as any type of wing.? There are those on the right of politics……Petro Georgiou comes to mind…..that agree with the majority on this forum.
Link:http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Insider-outsider/2005/02/15/1108230007168.html
It’s not about being a type. Just a decent human.
Although I must admit Barcelona Tonight did a lovely hatchet job on Howard’s IR policy last year so I shouldn’t complain.
Steveo, ‘please explain’ how France, (the) Netherlands, (the) UK, Belgium, ‘etc’ (what are these etc. countries?) are ‘go to the gutter hole’? I live in the UK and have a very pleasant life.
I am Australian, but my family is about 6th generation Irish. What do they do, they call themselves Irish. They get misty-eyed over ‘Danny Boy’, they dislike the Royal family.
The first time I went to Ireland and said I was Irish, people laughed at me and told me I wasn’t….. The whole country is made up of immigrants Steveo and everyone assimilates to a certain level. You are just trying to find excuses to be express your dislike for Muslims ( and I assume any other group of immigrants who “don’t look like us”).
Bushy @ 221, A bit of a laugh was had earlier on in the day, with opinion divided between whether it was chutzpah or a delusional state precipitated by the stress of going backwards, despite how helpful the maaaates in the MSM have been, and sitting in the gutter at 3am with the sad and neglected, and the pain, the paaaain of feeling for those who have to fork out good money to top up the Beemer to run the kids down to the holiday house. Personally, I prefer the second scenario. Earlier, the story was of Brendon (I’m a doctor) giving a pep talk to the troops. I was home and watched QT, and all I can say is they look so thoroughly demoralised, it cheered me up no end.
You’d think the bureaucrats would learn: four beers a “binge” indeed! A perfectly good noun with damning connatations is now rendered harmless. Didn’t they know that Australian irony would destroy their narrow-lipped intent? The once pejorative, savagely deft “binge” will now become a colloquialism for “having a few”. Nett effect: worsen the behaviour you were trying to moderate. Stone the crows!
Harry @ 207
Thanks for that. You learn something new everyday. But I’ve just realised I’m old enough to actually remember (and even enjoyed) that programme. Bugger.
Tt Tt Tt (or whatever it was Skippy used to say!)
Tony Abbott on Sky Nooze Agenda said that polls were important and that if the next couple did not show an improvement then Brenda is in deep poo (my interpretation).
So I reckon Brenda has 4-6 weeks left, but this maybe makes his reign as opposition leader longer than Lord Dolly of Mayo.
Allan @ 207. Perhaps, the LNP could see if Skippy was available to explain Australian values to Steveo and Brendon (I’m a doctor)?
Steve-o at #230
Seriously, I thought from all your previous comments comments you were a lefty…..
Neither side of politics is prepared to address your questions, it gets too ugly too quickly
Whilst the climate continues to warm each day, whilst some people struggle to find a job or pay their rent each day or week, whilst Robert Mugabe allegedly commits crimes against his people and stuffs up his country, Sophie Mirabella and the Liberal Party cry crocodile tears over Belinda Neal, fair dinkum.
The big issues… Yep the big issues… What a joke… What a stupid world we live in.
And Sophie could you please tell us what you are doing for your electorate? You dill.
Mr Squiggle, I’ve been trying, for some considerable time this afternoon, to invite Steveo to actually think about what he’s saying, back it up with evidence, and have ignored being called a moron and a fool, and continued to try and engage around what I could make out to be a concern about migration, to no avail. I think if you actually read through what has been posted, you would see others have done the same, more or less.
Do you have some amazing insight about migration that would address Steveo’s concerns, if you can actually work out what they are?
The world MSM along with the likes of Bush and Howard and Co helped demonise the word Muslim and to equate it with violence, danger, ter*r@sm. So now days for many it is a pavlov dog response to the word Muslim.
Bush and Howard and their campaign for the profits of defence companies encouraged this process because it helped legitimise their jobs and it was something thy could play on to keep power.
Every time there was a b*mbing the MSM would say it was from not just any old murderous ter*r@sts but Muslim ones – thus giving them the notoriety and glory they were seeking. Bush and extremists lived in a symbiotic arrangement needing each other to prosper.
However there are 200 million odd muslims just to the north who only want to get on with life like everyone else.
It is self fullfiling prophecy in a way – if we get Muslim immigrants then treat them like a dangerous enemy with no respect and so forth we create an environment that can breed resentment.
Multi-culturalism is good because it fully accepts differences in cultural backgrounds – it doesn’t mean non-assimilation into society. Just look at the Chinese wherever they are they maintain traditions, their own etiquettes and beliefs but are successful in society. People of different back grounds, especially new arrivals can feel welcomed and accepted as legitimate. The worst thing is to marginalise, ostracise people for their differences – it only creates problems.
Why did the Fibs fail to report Neale to the priveledge committee? Surely this would be the prudent course of action?
But maybe they don’t want Sophies “man hater” comments to become public?
Mr Squiggle
No i am right wing, yourself?
Who cares ruawake, politics is about policies and issues not trivia and dribble.
If they want to engage in this stuff they should go to a kindergarten.
But the Govt. has referred it. Ha Ha. Look out Soph.
Another front bencher resigns from Buswells Shadow Cabinet…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2277572.htm?section=justin
Are you still here, Steveo? I thought we were all too abhorrent for you?
settle Harry
ps
Harry
thanks for the heads up earlier in the year
Steve-o
In your comment at 159 above, you say you are a Labor voter. (See? I actually checked before writing this)
I presume you are claiming to support right wing of the ALP?
Well going forward we will have record levels of net immigration under Rudd, so lap it up Mr Right wing labor voter
Has anybody heard anything about McEwen
Salaam alekum everybody.
Snapper,
I’m really enjoying the sight of everyone try to answer Steve’s points. its been fun
My own views aren’t crystalised yet, and I don’t have a short, sharp statement on what Steve-o is getting at, so I can’t help you there
But I do have a very strong sense that Australia struggles to have a proper conversation on the issues of high immigration and the value of multi-culturalism.
Its just too easily turned into an argument about racism to make the risk of discussing it worthwhile. Raise a question on this topic and you are howled down as any one (or all) of the following:
1) racist
2) little-minded
3) igorant of history (well, we all came from somewhere didn;t we?)
4) scared of the big wide world
5) an under educated blue collar ALP voter that used to vote Howard, or finally
6) a middle class exclusivist who also voted for Howard
Pretty much got us covered really
gusface @ 251. Sigh, What sort of sado-masochistic psychopathology is it, do you suppose? If there were enough of them, I’d put up a submission for a new category in the DSM. Hang on, they’ re already there. See RWDB.
Also, what did I give a heads up earlier on? A clue will do.
Hmm, another former TV Journo running for WA Parliament – for the Nationals.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/17/2276645.htm
well if you watch insight tonight on SBS it is about bringing in foreign workers to help the skills shortage
Mr. S. Don’t think anyone’s got a handle on what Steveo’s on about, which was sort of the point, although to me, he seems to be reacting from fear.
People fear what they don’t understand, the unfamiliar, which is at least one of the reasons the question of migration gets people stirred up. It was why I commented that the experience of other people’s can also be a genuinely wonderful experience, whether they’re of a different culture or religious belief system (though I’m not a believer in invisible friends, myself).
I think it’s quite possible to have a conversation about migration in Australia without being howled down, if you have something relevant and informed to say. That Steveo is unable to mount and sustain a credible argument to support his position is evident. I simply don’t know why he hangs around if he finds us so objectionable.
Kina,
One of the questions going around my head is; what if the skills shortage is driven by the overall level of demand for goods and services that result from the already high levels of net immigration.
I just found Stevo’s true identity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqi0DwNLJdM
Steveo 1 – Pollbludgers 0
YHBT HAND
This is a fascinating comment from Shanna’s blog. I re-read it a number of times and have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the point is that the poster is trying to get across.
{I think everyone is getting a bit worked up over one poll… All the changes are well-within the margin of error. This is exactly how Labor won last year – their supporters whipped up hysteria over every 1% change in the polls. It’s important to remember that of the 25-odd Newspolls last year 24 of them said the Labor victory would be larger than it was…}
Maybe someone else can decipher it for me?
One person can provide service for more than one person so an increase service in capacity exceeds the additional demand it creates. It is only demand for resources that cannot be adequately increased (eg housing) that creates a problem.
But the economists here can give the explanation.
oops – I meant:
YHBT YHL HAND
Steveo, I wouldn’t pay much attention to most of this crew. It turned into a Rudd wankfest after November 24. Apparently the Dear leader can do no wrong.
I tend to treat this site as I would a local zoo. Front up once in a while, observe with wry amusement the simple creatures go about their lives, then go home.
A-C @ 267
What’s so simple about creatures at the zoo? You anthropomorphist! (It’s the monkey impersonators who eat their bananas unpeeled I find amusing.)
Personally I couldn’t giva a rats whether people are Muslim, Jew or Catholic (I’m a non practicing catholic). It’s all a gigantic load of crap.
There are good and bad people in all nationalities. What about those animals in underbelly who shot others in cold blood in front of children ??? Non muslim apparently.
There is one thing for certain – a pack of convicts COULD NEVER EVER have made Australia the place it is today economically.
Where would we be with the simple mentality of Steveo and A-C ??? Racist Clowns.
The WA Liberals must be in a terrible state. Buswell has survived, even after all the humiliating press he has brought to the party. A frontbencher today resigned, Buswell last week sacked another. How low must the talent stocks be there?
A fine old pickle they are in, and in Australia’s most “Liberal” state too.
Rx, I thought Victoria was the Libs “jewel in the crown”. How soon we forget.
Winston, WA was the only state in which the Libs picked up seats in the federal election. (I think that is so).
Yeah, OK.
But there has got to be more interesting things to discuss.
Maybe not more important but certainly more interesting.
Like why Iguanagate has had no impact on perceptions of the Federal Government but confirms perceptions of NSW (they are a train wreck). And it’s got nothing to do with how it was handled by Rudd & Iemma.
And the Vic by-election. I am not sure how to will turn out but when speaking to voters there i was somewhat surprised that McGauran was held in such high regard. It is very much a rural seat and even the city dwellers will vote for the candidate who is most supportive of rural interests.
267 A-C – According to you Rudd can do no right and Howard did nothing wrong, so we’re even. You’re no better, so stop your preaching.
#
264
Scorpio Says:
I read it:
I’m a one eyed Liberal supporter; fellow supporters don’t get stressed out; there will be a narrowing.
You do remember the narrowing?
216 BS Fairman
Stevie-oh’s “kjdf sek fo;eijf eiohf ew” is just random characters, not Dutch!
think ‘j’ would be low scoring tile in dutch tho! used in ‘long u’ = ‘ij’ and in diminuitive ‘tje’ at the end of a noun
Well, what is interesting to you might not be important to others, so you should speak for yourself.
The chair-sniffing story was such a scandal it made news services around the world! (As did Neale’s remarks to the preganant Liberal whatshername).
Besides, it is important (IMO) when a state division is in such dire straits they retain a disgraced chair-sniffer as leader, talent apparently being so short on the ground there … in the state of Liberal heartland. (How quickly we forget).
For all we know, his antics might have had an impact on perceptions of the Liberal Party. Brendan Nelson after all did express his “full support and confidence” in Buswell.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23622805-2,00.html
So – this is where you all got to.
good to see that post-JWH the spleen continues.
Just found a recording of Brendan leading his last party meeting trying to lift there spirits with a little song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxYszlBF-Xs&feature=related
Rx, my point exactly!
Er, what was your point?
Stevo @ 230 you make me laugh. Your comments are a cliche on so many levels.
FRANCE, THE NETHERLANDS and BELGUIM have “RIGHT WING” governments. That makes your left comments an oxymoron.
I loved that the French were blaming the socialists for Frances problems last year when they had been governed by conservatives for over 12 years. And now they all hate sarkozy. They get what they deserve. Stupid frogs. Only one president out of the 5 of the fith french republic has been socialist. So whenever im told how the socialists wrecked france it gives me a chuckel.
Once the police report is handed down on Neal and JDB that will end whatever the result. It looks like sniffergate is going to go up to the next state election. Have an election Mr Carpenter.
Rx,
That what you get from the media doesn’t always reflect community perceptions or priorities (and I’m being generous – to you and the media).
Once the Gas Crisis has died down there will be
What do you mean you’re being generous? You initiated the to-and-fro between yourself and me. And did so in a combative, or at least contradictory way, I might add.
Look, if you are not interested in a particular post, what is the point of wasting William’s bandwidth to say so? Easy enough to just scroll past.
Iguanagate and sniffergate is a nice comparison. Because they really only have an impact where they confirm existing perceptions. That’s why they are bad for the state parties (Labor in NSW and Libs in WA) but will have no impact on the Feds.
# 287
How do you know sniffergate will have no impact on perceptions of federal Liberals? Obviously you do not know this, however you are stating it as fact.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/new-stink-kicked-up-over-chair-sniffer/2008/05/06/1209839619603.html
Now, the federal Liberal leader said he has “full support and confidence” in this guy. Again, how do you know this hasn’t hurt them federally?
Rx, there is no ill-will intended in my comments and I apologise if you have taken offence. Just trying to generate a bit of discussion. And it’s just my opinion.
However, I think you will find that based on the recent polls, perceptions of the Federal Government haven’t been affected by the Iguana affair. And it demonstrates the difference between the priorities of the media and the community.
There is a massive dfference between sniffergate and Iguanagate. In Iguanagate the Labor leadership acted on it, in sniffergate the Libs could not. One is a problem of two Labor members, the other is a problem of the entire party.
Fair enough Winston. Maybe it’s too soon to tell if the Iguana thing has an effect on polls federally. The story is still “happening” (such as it is), so perhaps in the next poll or two, if at all? Though we will never know what effect, if any, it has, unless pollsters were to put a specific question about it to those being polled, which is unlikely.
Equally, we will never know whether sniffergate hurt the federal Libs, though Nelson’s full endorsement of Buswell is surely not a good look. And the fact that the Libs in WA are sticking by him as leader can’t look good either, lack of replacement talent notwithstanding.
My point is that the responses of the parties to Iguana/sniffer gates doesn’t matter much. It is the context in which they are perceived by the public. The affairs confirm perceptions of the state parties but have not impacted at the Federal level.
Oh, fer C****t sake, this Newspoll has got, if not death, then certainly dismay, written all over it, for the Libs. They are a shambles. They are in opposition everywhere, except for the Brisbane City Council, and that’s looking a bit dodgy. All they can up with at the Federal level is a 5c. fuel reduction, that is just laughable. If Steveo and Mr. Squiggle are the best the LNP can come up with, well good luck to you.
Rx, let me assure you that it will be addressed in polls.
Shrike @ 290. Well encapsulated.
It can’t be long before Carpenter calls an election in WA: the Liberals over there are a rabble!
And, how interesting the member for Indi is caught out making nasty comments about Julia Gillard!
I felt a bit sorry for Belinda Neal today, she looked very lonely in parliament.
Earliest it can be called is October, there was a Sunday Times article saying as much (can’t find the URL on the website).
I think I understand it now.Nelson and the rest of the coalition,are reading the Bolt/Blair blogs and believe the rest of Australia are thinking the same way as most of their posters. Then their Parliamentary (mis)behaviour is understandable.
Surely some people in the WA Liberal Party are smart enough to roll the seat sniffer before October?
Belinda ought to adopt the Beattie apologising technique. The public love a polly admitting error and then apologising. Beattie was an expert.
But who have they got, short of drafting a high profile candidate like John Worsfield from the Eagles or similar ?
Winston, I believe it’s possible the parties themselves might run some private polling on issues like Iguana or Sniffer.
But I doubt that Morgan or Newspoll for example will ask specifically “Does the Troy Buswell chair-sniffing incident affect your perceptions of the Liberal Party at the federal level?” The questions they ask tend to be about big, ongoing issues such as perceptions of the government on petrol prices; preferred leader etc. Incidents like sniffer and Iguana are by nature ephemeral and quickly forgotten. Hardly worth polling on I wouldn’t have thought.
And is this the new Theme Song for the Liberal Party, in light of Alcopops and Sniffwell ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pJ88yvXb_c
Doesn’t it make you so proud to be Otrayian …. the most important issue facing Ostrayia is the Laberal Party pretending to fight over the words some “right” wing NSW thug-ess said to a “right” wing Victorian thug-ess .. …….. the joys of living in a one party state..
In not voting for either branches of the Laberal Party it means I am so proud i haven’t had a vote for four elections!!!!
At least in Zimbabwe they have more than one party!
Well, what can one say at the end of an evening of thoughtful discussion and well reasoned debate, but “so long, and thanks for all the fish”.
Night all.
Someone get the 1080.
hahaha
consider me dead
The Piping Shrike Says:
I’m surprised you didn’t go further than that, i agree with the view you posted on your web site, Iguanagate is about a very clever polly chopping a faction off at the knees. As for sniffergate, boy the party is in a pretty poor state.
Harry,
when i was going thru the ’someone who is not nice to know phase’-the reaction of certain drugs with alcohol and ptsd is not a nice mix -your ahem advice was timely
Hy, Bushfire around? I wonder what he thought of the latest 702 ABC ratings where the novice Deborah Cameron has taken them up to near 12 and pressing 2GB.
In the same SMH piece they mentioned that Bushfire’s old favourite shills Virginia Trioli and Sally Loane never got them above 8. Has Cameron moved them to the left?
I find ABC radio in Sydney very bland these days, little more than a pale imitation of the commercial stations but without the right wing bias!
Cameron comes across to me as a gossiper. In my opinion, she blows with whatever is the current political wind, turning her morning show into a giggling, running commentary on whatever’s the latest News Ltd. confected outrage theme.
Her analysis is quite shallow. I think her surge in popularity is more to do with Jones losing touch and relevance than with anything positive she has to contribute.
I gave up listening to her months ago. Too trivial by far.
P.S. My sister still listens to Cameron but only in that “glad to be unhappy” way. Cameron’s blatherings give my sister a good heart-start of outrage in the mornings.
“DO u know what would would happen in some of those Arab countries if we went over there and not asimilatied into their way of life, we wouldnt even have the option of being Christian”
Yes, and that’s why they want to migrate here, where we have freedom of religion.
You have to laugh at the latest Reader’s Digest survey on the most trustworthy and least trustworthy Australian.
“While not as trustworthy as Bindi Irwin or burns specialist Fiona Wood – the most trusted Australian for the fourth year in a row – Mr Rudd has done quite well in the latest Reader’s Digest Trust Survey.
The Prime Minister has achieved the highest trust rating given to a politician after being ranked 62nd in the list.
Mr Rudd was ranked 11 places higher than his predecessor John Howard.
The news is not so good for Dr Nelson who comes in at the tail of the field at 93 – just four places above confessed terrorism supporter David Hicks.”
Apologies if anyone else has raised this most pertinent recent poll:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/nelson-fails-to-win-trust-20080618-2set.html
Nelson fails to win trust
“Dr Nelson … comes in at the tail of the field at 93 – just four places above confessed terrorism supporter David Hicks.”
Haha, whoops.
Abbott was one behind brenda on 94 lol
Vera, In all seriousness I’d trust David Hicks over the Mad Monk any day.
Steve
me too
Does anyone know how Feilding voted on this
http://news.smh.com.au/national/coalition-delay-samesex-legislation-20080618-2sk6.html
“Iguanagate” about to ensnare Iemma?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/iguana-turns-on-iemma/2008/06/18/1213468470985.html
Iemma refuses to deny so that means he’s guilty. Oldest jourmalistic trick in the book. He may yet prove to be but this doesn’t prove it.
Gary, very true, and the SMH has been out for Iemma’s blood since he took over from Carr.
The Australian’s intrerpretation of the Readers’ Digest survey:
“Two thirds don’t trust Rudd. Nelson leads Lib rival but powerbrokers may approach Bindi .”
In fact a picture is worth a thousand words at the SMH. A quick glance would lead you to believe that Brenda is more trustworthy.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/mary-bindi-and-the-wiggles-beat-the-pm/2008/06/18/1213468469260.html
vera 322 How many guesses do we need, to know HOW Fielding would vote on ANYTHING to do with samesex legislation????
327
Abstraktbiblos
They even position Nelson’s picture above Rudd suggesting that he was rated as more trustworthy than the PM. Although it’s not a serious case it’s still a good example of either poor journalism or media bias, take your pick. I’m sure any student of media studies or journalism would spot the ‘problem’ with this article yet the editors at the SMH allow it to be posted.
Brenton I was just wondering after Andrew Murray said
“The government should recall the Senate during the winter recess, after the coalition loses its one-seat majority in the upper house.
“Let’s put it to the Senate when the coalition no longer control it.”
Does anyone know when is the next NSW newspoll due?
Phil, this is a great site for timing of future elections throughout Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/home/nextelections.htm#act
Sorry Phil, I read your post to mean elections not Newspoll.
While Newspoll is important Gary, I dont think it yet has the status of elections!
I agree Possum. I must do something about these bloody glasses.
Newspoll’s practice has been to publish ‘bimonthly reading(s) of NSW voting intention & leaders’ ratings’. The last published was on 30 April 2008 and was said to cover the period March-April 2008. I surmise there will be another one published at the end of this month.
In fact a picture is worth a thousand words at the SMH.
IMunHO, the saddest part of that piece is this:
“The only person who’d knock her off the top is Mother Teresa, and she’s dead.”
MT would have to be one of the greatest frauds of the 20th Century
337 Mayo
Bigger than the Libs economic credibility even?
(hardy-ha-ha)
MayoFeral
An excellent article from the WaPo you might be interested in. BTW I found it as a link from Matty Drudge. He really hates McCain. The problems with the VA and McCain’s contempt for his fellow vets is a big Drudge theme.
VA testing drugs on war veterans
Experiments raise ethical questions
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jun/17/va-testing-drugs-on-war-veterans/?page=1
337 Mayoferal,
Yeah, one of the Brits (Chrostopher Hitchens?) did a TV show about her that essentially described Mother Teresa as running a living morgue (no hospital facilities) that tried to force people to convert to Catholicisim on their deathbeds (literally).
Amazing that no media managed to headline the fact the Rudd is in fact the highest scoring politician in the history of the survey….
Hitchins on Teresa: “That thieving Albanian dwarf”.
Diogenes @ 339. Why am I not surprised about the behaviour of pharmaceutical companies?
Mother Teresa is a sacred cow for Catholics. I ended a dinner party prematurely when I vocally espoused what I had just read in Hitchens’ book. I particularly liked the way her hospitals didn’t believe in pain relief. Evidently, the more pain you suffered before you died, the purer you were when you got to heaven. Of course, when Mother Teresa got sick she went to a state-of-the-art hospital in Europe as a VIP.
Harry
I agree. Big Pharm has BIG MONEY. They are almost the biggest lobby group in the US after Big Oil and the War Industry. The VA has complete contempt for the soldiers and are loving the cash for selling them out.
And like Big Oil, Big Pharm knows that their income stream is permanently (at this stage) time limited.
The normal bargaining and ethics of supply-demand economics go out the window when everyone knows you’re holding a limited resource.
Diogenes, What I found infuriatingly unethical was providing a drug without warning of the possible side effects, particularly to people with PTSD. Yes, I’m certainly aware of the lobbying power of Big Pharm. See it all the time, and the corrupting effects of same, as I gather from previous comments you’ve made, that you do too.
BTW, do you recall the breathless reports of biscuits and buns with MT’s supposed face on them? I kept waiting for the face on the dog dropping.
Diogenes @ 339 –
I’m not yet convinced by the claims against Chantix, and especially the suicidality link. I’ve seen that debate in connection with antidepressants where, IMHO, it is mostly male bovine excreta being largely pushed by vested interests.
It may turn out that the claims being made are true, but I want to see more concrete evidence than what has been produced so far. However, I’d be surprised if Chantix didn’t have at least one unwelcome side effect. Most drugs do. Even common aspirin kills and maims far more people than is generally realised.
Plus, the most prescribed alternative stop smoking drug, Zyban (bupropion), also has a cloud over with indications it increases the risk of stroke. And of course the fatality rate from smoking is high.
A far bigger problem, IMO, is sending troops known to be suffering one or more psychiatric disorders back to war zones, often with a big bag of pills to keep them functioning. Every one of their officers, from Lieutenants JG all the way up to the Joint Chiefs should be charged for this atrocity and then taken out and shot!
As for McCain, I’ve just been reading his diatribe against the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision on detainees. I find them unfathomable given his experiences as a POW. But then he now seems to have few problems with torture, either, after initially campaigning against it. This bloke is seriously
weirdunhinged, IMO.Hows this for a Big Pharma lurk. You get a drug – thalidomide and get FDA approval to use it for Multiple Myaloma. You now have the patent on this drug. But you rename it Thalomid.
So a drug that used to cost 50 cents a pill now costs US$900 a pill. Then you make an anolog of your newly patented drug and call it lenolidamide – you then run clinical trials on 30+ diseases looking for a market. You get approval for Myelodysplastic Syndrome even though there were 24 deaths in the clinical trial.
Then you charge US$10,000 a course for a drug that has cost very little to develop.
But don’t get me started this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Here comes a new issue for Brenda.
http://business.watoday.com.au/labors-uncharitable-move-20080618-2skx.html
Frank
Brenda is not going to touch this with a barge pole. It was a budget measure introduced by Tip.
Hockey was the relevant minister at the time – he looked rather sheepish in parliament today when Macklin said Labor would fix the mess caused by the coalition.
Frank , I think they may be able to get out of it relatively easily. Apparently, the implementation relies on the ATO deciding that the non-gov’t sector, delivering health and welfare services, aren’t charities. This problem has been identified for at least a couple of months. I’d have thought some regulations defining what non-gov’t and charitable organisations are eligible to provide salary sacrificing and the categories of things which can be included in a salary sacrifice package, could fix it. Conflict of interest disclosure, I am currently able to salary sacrifice c. $8,700. However, I’m also aware of very, very highly paid health professionals salary sacrificing pretty much their entire publicly paid for salary, and then earning very large amounts of money in their private practice, also subsidised by the taxpayer via Medicare, so perhaps as a tax expert, I make a good social worker! Will shut up on this.
Frank, I can’t help myself. Regulations could also include salary rates at which salary sacrifice tapered away, but there’d be some mightily p****d of senior health professionals.
I’m just commenting on how the Article was written by the Fairfax Journo – comparing it to the Pensions beat up.
Mayoferal @ 347. Prescribing drugs, any drugs, for PTSD, is just lazy. Psychological therapy is established treatment of choice for trauma, and there are a number of treatment modalities with proven effectiveness. The rule should be, don’t prescribe a drug if you don’t have to. Much like antibiotics. If a person has a secondary depression, an antidepressant may help to some extent, but this should be clearly explained, as should side effects and what to do about them.
“The best example is a worker at a charity earning $35,000 a year, but who was given salary-sacrificed benefits of $15,000 a year”.
So this worker is really earning $50,000 a year? Surely the answer is to pay them $50,000 a year?
Why do we have these “exemptions” or to put it less mildly rorts.
If you want social security it does not matter if it is salary sacrificed income or not – you still get the cash. So tough luck – you do not qualify.
Frank @ 353, you could well be right. It will be quite interesting to see just how various journos behave over the next little while, given the annoyingly stubborn behaviour of those being polled, to insist on continuing to think that if an election was held, they just might do the same thing they did last November.
Harry “Snapper” Organs @ 354 -
Psychotherapy may or may not be the ‘established treatment of choice” for PTSD, but the simple fact is that for many it is hard to impossible to access.
We’re fortunate that Medicare will now pay most of the costs, but it’s a different story in many other countries, especially America (too expensive) and the UK (not enough therapists).
Harry “Snapper” Organs @ 354 -
Psychotherapy may or may not be the ‘established treatment of choice” for PTSD, but the simple fact is that for many it is hard to impossible to access.
We’re fortunate that Medicare will now pay most of the costs, but it’s a different story in many other countries, especially America (too expensive) and the UK (not enough therapists).
Oops, sorry. Not sure how the double post occurred
MayoFeral @ the last. Yes, you’re quite right about the access issue. It’s certainly the case there are insufficient numbers of people adequately trained in Australia, and while there is a larger number of people trained in the U.S., their system of managed care is problematic, and yes, the U.K. have too few. But it raises the interesting question, doesn’t it, of where public money goes to treat people? Drugs or training to treat people effectively?
MayoFeral, I sent off my missive without the qualification that sometimes one needs both a drug as well as psychotherapy, but I’m bloody sick of seeing people decanted from the private system into the public system, when they’ve run out of private coverage, doped to the eyeballs, on, I swear, a person I treated, on two antipsychotics, two antidepressants, a mood stabiliser, and a swag load of benzodiazepines (three). This person had Borderline Personality Disorder and complex PTSD. It took 5 years to treat her, but if we didn’t, the intergenerational effects are absolutely toxic (she had a young child and had another during her time with us).
Without wanting to rehash the bias argument, can those who think the media is NOT biased please explain the relative lack of reporting of the 59/41 which represented a 4% change in 2PP lead and a 4% drop for Nelson PPM as opposed to the massive coverage of the no-change 2PP 57/43 Newspoll and the 5% increase in Nelson PPM?
#362 I’m not sure it is just bias. The expectation that Labor’s vote would slump after all the petrol fuss was widepsread.
More like I think the media are losing the plot. Even Shanahan would not like to have got caught in the corner he was with the latest Newspoll.
Andrew @ 362: I’m no fan of the MSM but I’ll play the devils advocate and say they did report it.
Link: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23876180-5013871,00.html
and also this….
The Link: http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/dennisshanahan/index.php/theaustralian/comments/fuel_attack_fails/
It was also reported on CH7,9,10,ABC,SBS…especially on Tuesday morning and also on morning radio here in Sydney. I guess it all comes down to the degree of reporting or hysteria created by the media about the polls. Although I’m sure they are still waiting and hoping for the “Honeymoon to be over” !
I was able to catch QT today. I have never seen the government that happy before. There was one continual happy smile after another. And what about Swanny! What are performer. I’ve heard the MSM say that Cossie was the best ever. Swan’s makes Tip look like a former reserve grader.
A far contrast to the other side of the house. They are in mourning. Brenda was straining every fibre of muscle in his cheeks to make a grin. Turnbull was constantly sighing. Hockey’s frown resembled the harbour bridge. Tip looked like he needed to be consoled. And Bishop’s in such a state of shock, she thinks she’s still in high school.
Thoroughly enjoyable to watch.
Centre @ 365. Like you I saw QT for the first time in a long time yesterday. What struck me were the brief cut aways to Costello, in which he looked to be the most miserable creature you could imagine.
Harry “Snapper” Organs @ 360 –
But it raises the interesting question, doesn’t it, of where public money goes to treat people? Drugs or training to treat people effectively?
It has to be both. Some people thrive on psychotherapy, many don’t. Same with drugs. And far too many aren’t helped by either. We are still a long way from treatments that will help the majority, much less cure them.
Andrew @ 362
You have to remember that whistling along to the governments tune does not sell newspapers. If all they printed was “Rudd says something else amazing” each day then their readership numbers would fall like Paris Hiltons panties.
Cashing in on any perceived angst, contention or friction sells newspapers – its like gossip for the psephs.
But the drivel being peddled now is a damn shame to see. Journalists of the classy “old” school such as Oakes, Gratan, Megologenis etc are a dying breed. I do not understand how a newspaper like the Herald Sun can allow a one-sided blog like Andrew Bolts to continue on their pages. Nor do I understand why Piers Ackerman is still allowed onto a keyboard.
The Shrike at 363. I think they are not only losing the plot, they’ve lost it. However, I’ve noticed this week, since the latest polls, specifically the Newspoll, not only is there virtual silence on the implications of said poll, there has been some actual questioning of the Opposition’s position and behaviour, on programs such as PM. Hmm, I thought. Mind you, the Feds. have got some absolutely diabolical problems confronting them/us.
362-364
Shanahan did at last a genuine analysis. There is no way this would happen unless he had no choice and was cornered! But it shows he can do it if he wants to- he simply does not normally want to.
Frank 349
I read your link to the online article by reporter Scott Murdock.
I too do not want to necessarily rehash the bias debate at this particular time but I do not think any of us should forget it. BUT:
I wonder if some of this article is really based on a Liberal Handout. The spin on it is far too cute and one sided. First the general sweeping statement–”Labor is building a reputation for putting sections of the community offside”
Then the inaccurate info- “First, it was the pensioners. The move by the Government not to deliver any extra benefits to old-age pensioners in the budget prompted outrage.” I thought the pensioners were getting an extra $900/year.
Also it was making out the pensioner’s protest was spontaneous.
There is explanation of what the Coalition Gov’t did and also Labor- hardly a place to put spin as that info would come straight from Parliamentary records.
The article finishes off “But Labor, allegedly, was oblivious to the effects it would have. Is that believable? Surely not.” The article effectively clouds the responsibilities in the middle but finishes off with this para.
I could be wrong that some of it comes from a Liberal handout but if not it is certainly one sided.
MayoFeral , see earlier comment at 361. We may have crossed. Still think there’s a debate to be had about where you put public money in health.
Its good to see that the Coalition is still standing up for the battling millionaire in the Senate, rejecting the Luxury car tax, and legislation increasing scrutiny of politicla donations:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/18/2279014.htm
At first I couldn’t work out why they didn’t just vote against the bills. Then I realised – by referring them to a Senate committee they get to delay them beyond the change in July 1 and don’t give the government a chance for a double dissolution trigger. Far be it for them to have courage in their convictions.
Socrates it is a bit rich for Labor to cry crocodiles tears in regards to blocking bills when for years Labor blocked the Coalitions bills. This for a Labor voter like myself was stupid policy because it comes back to haunt you.
370
Referencing the government as ‘Labor’ is the key indicator.
I also reckon that the pattern of using ‘Labor’ to start sentences is a clear clue for anyone to turn off and not bother reading the rest of the article. I don’t think anyone identifies Rudd as being from the ‘Labor’ party the article is intimating.
Socrates @ 372. they’re being spoilers for as long as they can be, because they have no idea what else to do. Think of an alternative way to address the country’s problems? Well, you’d have to think beyond your own political survival. I have nothing but contempt for the Coalition these days. Alternative government? Pshaw. They’re rubbish.
I also watched QT today! I’m impressed with Tanner, he’s a great performer on his feet and he always argues his point in a coherent, intelligent way!
Swan definitely has improved also!
And I just love the member for Dawson, James Bidgood: quite a character!
As for the other side: Hockey’s behaviour today was really quite puerile, Turnball looked bored, and who cares about the rest of that sorry lot?
G’night all.
Marky
Firstly Labor hasn’t had the Senate numbers to block anything for some years, so you must be referring to quite a while ago. Second, even if true in the (many years?) past, two wrongs don’t make a right.
Third, its one thing to block bills you have a stated policy position against – eg GST legislation – and another to do it for purely cynical purposes, or even worse if contrary to your own stated policy positions. The Liberals have said they want to hold the government accountable, and fight inflation. Both of these delays are directly contrary to those alleged aims, hence pure cynicism. Like Harry says they’ve given up hoping for a bounce in Nelson’s polls and are just abusing their power while they still can. How can anyone who claims to be a believer in “liberal” ideology be opposed to increased transparency in political donations?
Howards tax on charity workers was aimed at hospital workers and student unions.
Staff, including admin staff in many hsopitals can salary sacrifice benifits including mortgage payments, laptops, cars etc, but most importantly do not pay FBT, as most others do, giving them a big tax advantage.
It helps the institution in that their wage costs are lower because of this benefit. Student unions may also generally be exempt from FBT gross up, enabling them to offer competitive wages at a lower cost.
Howards main beef about this, aside from the fact they are student unions (boo) is that ordinary folk are getting access to tax advantage usually only the domain of the privileged.
Rod
good to see the obligatory BOO after unions
still raises a chuckle
Yes i agree with you on the Liberal parties positioning and cynical stances and these stances were contrary to the reasons why Labor blocked the Libs bills between 1996 to 2004 where Labor had control of the Senate with a handful of minority parties, however blocking bills is called blocking bills and this is what Labor did, so they have no right to carry on, sorry Socrates do not agree. It is called hypocrisy.
For those that watched Question Time in the HoR today, did anyone else notice Nelson’s hilarious delivery of his question regarding pensioners surviving on $273 per week? He started off speaking directly to the PM and then half way through his question looks directly into the camera to deliver the remainder. It’s so obvious that he’s trying to get cut into the evening news that it’s laughable.
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen him try this tactic before either. Not sure what its success rate is but it never fails to amuse.
367
MayoFeral Says:
Some people thrive on psychotherapy, many don’t. Same with drugs. And far too many aren’t helped by either. We are still a long way from treatments that will help the majority, much less cure them.
Bingo. Both the pharmacological and talking therapies are seriously flawed and limited, and WAY oversold.
“however blocking bills is called blocking bills and this is what Labor did”
Hang on Marky using that argument taking a life is taking a life and everyone should go to jail for it but you and I know there are exceptions to that rule and justifiable exceptions. You just can’t have a blanket statement like that. The circumstances are important here.
Oh and this should worrt all of us who quote from News items on the web.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/06/18/ap-thatll-be-250-a-word-for-copy-paste-thanks/#more-6550
ebay charity auction
Mid Winter Ball
final bids
Dinner for 4 at Lodge with Kev $20,600
Dinner for 6 with Julia $15,600
Dinner for 4 with Brenda, Chuckies mum and their most senior front bench colleagues $7,600
Are the Lib supporters tight ars*s or is it that they just can’t stomach dinner with their own mob?
#384:
“however blocking bills is called blocking bills and this is what Labor did”
Hang on Marky using that argument taking a life is taking a life and everyone should go to jail for it but you and I know there are exceptions to that rule and justifiable exceptions. You just can’t have a blanket statement like that. The circumstances are important here.
And the Liberals have their reasons for blocking these bills.
Sean
please tell us what those reasons are?
Sean
Your remark is vacuously true. I presume the plausible reasons you refer to are personal interest, bitterness and egotism. If your remark were true in some other fashion, no doubt the coalition would have advanced those reasons, rather than park the debate for a year.
388
As much as I’ve thought about it, I can’t work out what on Earth the opposition hopes to gain by their actions in the Senate. They’re not ideologically opposed to these issues, and they don’t appear to think there are votes up for grabs either, given the total reticence to attempt to make any political mileage over their delay of these budget measures. That their best response when challenged over their actions is merely to assert the right to such actions indicates they’re not even sure themselves quite what they seek to achieve.
Most likely, it boils down to being one of the few things they can do to lash out at the government and attempt to cause some discomfort. With a hatred of the Labor party being the only thing holding the opposition together (Hockey has admitted as much in Parliament) and their Senate majority soon to expire, they have decided to do something, anything, to attempt to inflict damage on the government, and damned be the consequences.
And consequences there will be. Not content with merely being rightly blamed for all negative economic conditions up to the present time, they’ve given the government permission to blame any future negative economic developments on them as well. And with a reporting date of mid 2009 for the committee reviewing amendments to the Electoral Act, there is ample opportunity for the government to paint the opposition as corrupt, hiding behind the inflated non-disclosure threshold for political donations. The government’s line that the opposition is in bed with private health insurance, big oil and the spirits industry ties everything up into a lovely little package.
All in all, it doesn’t seem to be a sustainable approach for the opposition to take over the long term, and I’d be surprised not to see these amendments recalled into Parliament and passed once the gravity of their actions begins to hit home.
Yoyama at #390
Nice summation of the hole they’ve dug for themselves – and hence the attack angle(s) the government can now convincingly use.
Rudd should force an early sitting of the new senate asap. It makes very good business sense. It has been reported that the cost of such an action would be in the order of $1m. If they can hasten the passage of the subject legislation by, say, two months the return on investment will be 20000% (simplest calculation – $200m return for $1m expense).
Not to mention the political gains.
Labor didn’t block bills 96 to 04. It opposed them.
SOME bills were supported by the Dems/Greens/Inds and opposed by Labor – ergo, passed.
SOME bills were not supported by the Dems/Greens/Inds and also opposed by Labor – ergo, defeated.
Minor parties and Labor are at odds on many issues and the merits of the bill – not the advantage to Labor – would have been the motive of the minors.
Labor couldn’t block bills!
However the issue is not really about the above. It’s about Oppositions voting against the Govt as a political tactic. A crude, dishonest and wilful act of self interest which only serves to undermine the process – but, however, is still fair game in the Westminster system.
On this score both Labor and Libs/Nats have always been guilty.
Is the Australian offline for anybody else this morning, or has Dennis finally had enough of me?
“The Australian” site was having difficulties late last night I found. I’m not surprised it’s off today.
Anybody else well and truly over the JBD and Belinda Neal thing? I have totally lost the thread of who is doing what to who. I suspect I’m not Robinson Crusoe.
Ok, thanks GB
When the first suggestion fails why not simply double the offer! Simple! Trouble is where do you cut?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/19/2279316.htm
So a 10c per litre cut in excise will save the average motorist $5 per week tops while the price of fuel will continue to rise. Nelson better get this drongo on the phone quick smart and tell him to shut the f**k up. They can’t back up their current call for a cut in excise with identified spending cuts so how can they appear creditable by doubling the offer? Where does it end? No excise at all?
I see our part time PM is off travelling again… lol, Rudd can’t wait to get back to China.
399
John of Melbour
Lift your game. We expect better than cheap shots from you.
390
Yoyoma
Well said.
399
John of Melbourne
Is that the best ya got on Rudd? If it is then, like opposition parties the country over, you need to seriously rethink your tactics.
I’m trying but it’s a new government. Give me a couple of years and I’ll give you what for.
395
Gary Bruce
The Oz site is still down. Is it possible that they have drowned in their own bile?
hooray, a journo who is writing about the crappy political spin articles as they are–oh happy day–theres still some factual journos around.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23886312-5013458,00.html
403 Steve K – Hope so Steve.
Steve K and GB you guys have the ABC, The Age etc and we may have a few journalists at The OZ but all in all I think there coverage is fair and even.
406 John – the ABC (LOL), The Age to a degree and the OZ fair and even (LOL). I notice John you left out all of the other major newspapers in the land. I wonder why that is.
GB why complain Labor won didn’t they and by the sounds of it with no thanks to the MSM.
Anyway criticism is good part of eternal vigilance I suppose.
404
judy barnes
I heard Paul Bongiorno of Network 10 on News Radio this morning. I don’t think his name has been mentioned here as another journo who is pretty balanced and fair. A good test of balance is to ask “Which party would he support?” In the case of PB I’m unsure which is a good thing.
American politics…
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23888173-5012572,00.html
408 John – I’ll take that as a “Oh, I see my mistake now, you are right Steve K and GB.”
What you say is right John – “Labor won didn’t they and by the sounds of it with no thanks to the MSM” but it doesn’t make uneven media bias right, if such bias has to happen at all.
J of M is correct. The incessant complaints about mainstream media ring hollow. The Rudd hegemony is going to prevail in the short to medium term, so it really doesn’t matter what is written and said in the media and whether it is good bad or indifferent to this country’s twenty sixth prime minister and his parliamentary colleagues. I think all of us agree that political orthodoxy at this time (that is, Rudd’s ascendancy over the opposition) is not always reflected or even properly acknowledged in the MSM. It’s time to move on.
There are some good political journos out there in that they give it out to both sides. I have no problem at all with that. I just happen to think this should be the norm rather than the exception.
GB you’re funny… I didn’t say, “Oh, I see my mistake now, you are right Steve K and GB.” I was simply extrapolating your arguments.
In relation to the media no one will ever be happy.
Lets hear it for David Charles. Good work DC
“The incessant complaints about mainstream media ring hollow.”
“I think all of us agree that political orthodoxy at this time (that is, Rudd’s ascendancy over the opposition) is not always reflected or even properly acknowledged in the MSM.”
I’m just wondering David how you marry these two statements together? Doesn’t “ring hollow” mean there is no substance to the complaints and doesn’t “all of us agree that political orthodoxy at this time is not always reflected or even properly acknowledged in the MSM” suggest there is substance to the complaints?
Which is it?
By the way John you bought into what was just a jovial aside by Steve K and myself. We were not having a big discussion on media bias.
GB I think David means complaining about the msm now rings hollow for whatever they the msm say won’t matter as Rudd and Labor are in their ascendency.
GB oops, can you forgive me?
Oh, all right John, you’re forgiven.
Cheers Gary
Do anyone think there will be a carbon tax on petrol in 2010?
I personally do not believe so as it will be a massive slug to working families.
If you do not believe in global warming I think you shouldn’t have to pay the tax.
I think Rudd will go early and make different promises for the next election that way he can continue to claim there are no core or non core promises.
Rudd does have a case for not including a carbon tax on fuel as the sudden increase in prices is doing the job a carbon tax would do, reducing consumption. Garnot reckons the price hike will see Australia actually more than achieve its Kyoto target.
422 John – A carbon tax on petrol in 2010 will be a hard ask. I don’t think it will happen. Petrol is being priced out of existence as it is. As far as going early is concerned, it depends on the circumstances at the time and there are many changes that could take place, eg the economy, the opposition etc.
New promises are usually made at election time and if he does and follows through if re-elected I can’t see the problem.
422
John of Melbourne Says:
June 19th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
…If you do not believe in global warming I think you shouldn’t have to pay the tax….
Yeah, and if you don’t support the war in Iraq you shouldn’t have to pay the proportion of tax that funds the war…and if you don’t have children you shouldn’t have to pay the proportion of tax that helps fund child care, schools, dental health care for children….and if you – enough already – this is a silly argument JoM.
Neither core nor non-core?
Truly, if there was a third way, Howard would have thought of it! LOL
Kina, I believe Rudd doesn’t want to be seen as having core and non core promises. You’re right to say he does have a case but history tells us he had a case to place the tax cuts into super as opposed to giving them out and he gave them out as he said he would. My point is the only way he can change that is if he goes to an early election with a different promise.
Steve K true the arguement is silly and was intended as such.
Bryce excellent point, had me in stitches.
Good old Ann of WA sprouting Liberal Party Talkinig points re the WA Gas Crisis.
( * ann
* June 19, 2008
* 08:26 AM
Howard – State Governments are RESPONSIBLE to MAKE SURE there is sufficient POWER AND WATER – FOR US the PEOPLE!!!
Apache is a private company however the State Labor Government was RESPONSIBLE to KEEP THE CHECK AND BALANCE. This Government Agency REPORTED TO THIS GOVERNMENT that there WAS GREAT concern of this particular Pipeline 4 YEARS AGO.
So, we should be ASKING: What happened to this REPORT did this Labor Government take ANY notice of this REPORT???
However, in the meantime the Media Political Spin is on display for us all to see:
FIRST: There was The Premier Alan Carpenter on Prime Time Television trying to CON the Western Australian People saying little but trying to cover his Political Skin telling us all to stop using so much power.
SECOND: Yesterday this so called Premier was giving out light bulbs in paper bags and signing autographs.
The State is in a HUGE POWER CRISIS, businesses are closing down more than 630 fellow Western Australians may have lost their JOBS and the Premier has turned into a ROCK STAR – there he was performing in front of the cameras, surrounded by adoring women and signing AUTOGRAPHS.
My Question: How has the Premier been able to turn such a POLITICAL NEGATIVE into a POLITICAL POSITIVE signing AUTOGRAPHS???
I must be the only one that sees something terrible WRONG in all this shameful POLITICAL SPIN!
We are the ENERGY CAPITAL OF THE WORLD – we the People are told to stop using ENERGY and the Premier has turned into a ROCK STAR???
What The?
This is a COMPLETE JOKE!!!!
HOW DUMB AND STUPID ARE WE THE VOTERS OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA??
I SAY VERY DUMB AND VERY STUPID!!!]
http://blogs.watoday.com.au/madashell/2008/06/premier_full_of.html
429
Frank Calabrese
Wow, what a shrill pain in the proverbial.
“Steve K true the arguement is silly and was intended as such.” If that’s the case John, why bother?
The Conservative dream. Still in the hearts of some.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23883743-27197,00.html
It’s convenient to say you intended to be silly after the inherent silliness of a statement you apparently made in earnest has been exposed.
More trouble for the WA Libs as former leader quits the Party.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/omodei-quits-liberal-party-20080619-2tao.html
I’m waiting for the day when the devil gets thrown out of hell for associating with Brian Bourke. ! : )
Sondeo. Didn’t you know that Brian Burke is the devil?
The writings and associations of Mr Bourke shall go down in Australian political infamy. Gee, I bet all the folks that voted for him are glad we have secret ballots. !
Dear oh dear, QT is a bloodbath.
GG Thanks for that link; ROTFL. Having taken themselves too far to the right, its wonderful to think that there is still a hard core of right-wing nut-bars wanting to anchor the Liberal ship out of the main stream. The thought that they see Nelson as “too left” when the more saleable Turnbull is further left is really quite funny.
Inner Westie – good point; it looks like Nelson must have said quite a few intentionally silly things lately. He really should explain that in advance though -then we will see he is really so clever after all
Actually, I haven’t found QT was particularly exciting today so far Possum. What are you picking up on?
Possum Comitatus
Indeed
399
John of Melbourne Says:
I see our part time PM is off travelling again…
Did you also see that Dolly and Smirk are off on an OS trip at taxpayers expense to USA. hmm and backbenchers the pair of them!
QT is the only opportunity for an opposition to get traction against the Govt. There is usually a strategy to questions leading up to a Thursday QT that sets the news agenda for the weekend.
The opposition has been floundering today – they have not landed a punch. I guess they may still have a stunt up their sleeves but they look demoralised.
Yoyo – the Coalition is trying to deal themselves back into the economic debate by playing a bad version of gotcha over Rudds inflation remarks, but the whole thing was thrown back in their face with interest, including over budget measures that the coalition are delaying. But it was the way it was done, the effortlessness of the ALP response that made it so stinging.
Nelson is struggling to keep his party disciplined, they are losing seriously rusted on voters, he’s come off the back of the worst Coalition primary vote level under his leadership and a fortnight of frothing that he thought was gaining traction and which, as we knew well here, wasnt (as the polls have clearly shown).
Todays bloodbath is the way in which Labor can now effortlessly swat Coalition melodrama and throw it back in their face, to the point where the Coalition no longer have the passion or encouragement to even give a shit about the fact that it’s happening.
They’re just resigned to their own inevitable failure.
They’re simply standing up to ask questions knowing they’re going to get knocked down – and this is the first time I’ve seen it happen in this Parliament.
The Coalitions only comfort – some of the press gallery reporting how wonderful they were doing in Parliament – has now collided with the reality of public opinion and are no longer following the “Nelson as parliamentry performer” spiel. So Nelson has nothing left. QT has caught up to political reality – and finally, both sides of parliament and nearly all of the press gallery now know it.
ruawake
I’m sure the Dwarf will write a fairy tale for the weekend papers to get the libs through the final week of parliment. lol
To demonstrate the farce – Turnbull is now quoting his own website and demanding that comments about it from Labor be retracted.
Swan tables the page in response – game over, Turnbull looks like a self absorbed dickhead in the process.
Bloodbath
Turnbull – not getting how stupid he looks, continues on with talking about himself, talking about his own website as if anyone but him actually gives a shit.
They’re clueless – now the gallery journos are going to write comments laughing at Turnbulls self-absorption, assisting that meme to settle into the minds of people who dont already believe that anyway.
They are hopeless.
Possum, you nailed it perfectly. When I was watching I was thinking to myself, why are they like this? must be big punch about to come but no, there wasn’t any. Even the Gov didn’t bother to throw a punch, they just swatted then away as you said.
I don’t know what happenned to Joe Hockey in QT today. Only one stupid point of order and very little of the usual noise and guffawing.
The head prefect (Julie Bishop) also very subdued.
Swan gets better and better, he has really improved his QT performance skills!
And Labor has some talented backbenchers, compare them with the garbage on the other side LOL
Possum, thanks for your considered remarks. I’d picked up on the opposition’s repeated questioning over Rudd’s minor error when attempting to recall inflation data in yesterday’s QT, however their attacks were so weak I wasn’t sure quite what they were trying to achieve.
However, I hadn’t picked up on the opposition’s utterly despondent attitude. I guess there’s a considerable amount lost listening to events on the radio compared to watching on TV or online.
Possum 444
“…Todays bloodbath is the way in which Labor can now effortlessly swat Coalition melodrama and throw it back in their face, to the point where the Coalition no longer have the passion or encouragement to even give a shit about the fact that it’s happening…”
Succinctly put. As I watched Nelson arrange his papers to exit the house at the end of question time I saw a man who is aware that his day of execution is drawing near. His body language said “I’m done for – I’ve got nothing more to say.”
And yet judging by Turnball’s performance in parliament, would he really be that much better than Nelson?
453
Progressive Says:
June 19th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
And yet judging by Turnball’s performance in parliament, would he really be that much better than Nelson?
No. In fact Nelson is better value as he can at least show some semblance of understanding of how tough it is for ‘working families’. Allbull is all bluster, bravado and bull butter (ah, I wonder if Glen is tuning in to PB these days) who is so much in love with himself he fails to even register the existence of ordinary Australians. I’m not sure if I’d rather see Allbull get the gig and fail big time as he surely would or have him become bitter and twisted like the member for Higgins by not getting the gig at all. Either way is destined to miss out on the thing he desires more than anything else.
I was a bit young at the time but were Labor in a similar position when JWH won in 1996?
Penny Wong was impressive today, she answered in a very cool calm and collected way, that lass is going to go a long way.
has anyone noticed the way the government goes about it’s business there–compared to the rautious schoolboy antics across the floor, thats another reason Costello wouldnt be able to make it now, his histrionics and overacting would stand out even more like the proverbial sore thumb and would destroy any semblance of dignity the opposition have, they still hav’nt worked out that the public is sick of playacting and hamming it up in place of proper policies.
If Turnbull becomes leader there’ll be an initial bounce, but the Libs will not only gain some voters, they’ll lose some other voters to the “others” column.
He’ll be sliced and diced by the Labor machine in 6 months because he doesnt know when to STFU and stop talking about himself. He’s not as smart on politics as he thinks he is, so there’ll be no telling him otherwise.
It will be Mark Latham in a Fioravanti suit – except he wont get the suburban mum bounce.
JoM – nothing like it. They were depressed, but they werent dysfunctional.
Cheers Possum and congrats on the wedding.
I agree Turnbull needs more time to become joe public. I would like to see Abbott I really like him IMHO he is cool.
……Possum you could give Mr Keating a run for his money. !
Ta JoM,
I think the Labor party would really like to see Tony Abbott become leader too
JoM @ 459: To be fair to Abbott he would be better off where he is. I tend to think that he has a problem with women politicians from the opposite side…his “people skills” are somewhat lacking.
It is always entertaining to hear Swan, Tanner and Rudd laying into “the Member for Higgins”.
Just a few short months ago he swaggered about, with a grandiose belief in himself as a Question Time bigshot.
In reality, he was little more than a loudmouthed smartarse who could only ever cut it thanks to the protection of the biased Liberal Speaker.
Talk about a man reduced. He’s gone from piling insults onto Labor from the position of upper hand … to a crestfallen and shiftless backbench seat-warmer, broken, defenceless against an open-ended stream of mocking humiliation.
I understand everyones point of view but he’s cool. He could challenge Rudd to a boxing match, lol. Rudd could do with some training he is getting a bit big around the mid riff.
Rx, Costello did a good job of getting under Nick Sherry’s skin, with a few possum references.