Introducing another round of comments action in the endless US presidential election campaign. Participants are encouraged to try their luck in the IRC room:
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Presidential election minus 19 weeks
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2,113 Comments
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Chris-
i’m not giving up on him. I also know that the guy has to get elected and playing the moderate is the best way that can happen. Just hope he delivers in the end.
#1897 #1899, Diog/jen, [It’s getting so bad I’m almost wishing Billary got in instead/I am feeling a tad uneasy too] – i am in the immortal word mood this arvo.
In the immortal words of Joni Mitchell:
Late last night
I heard the screen door slam
And a big yellow taxi
Took away Hillary,
Dont it always seem to go
That you dont know what youve got
Till its gone,
They paved paradise
And put up Obam.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgMEPk6fvpg
1901 Jen. So he can win as many red states as possible. Maybe even TEXAS.
Finns- you always wanted Hillary to get in, and I’m still glad she didn’t. Just because I am disappointed injsome of Obama’s current positioning does not for a second mean that I would prefer Mrs Clinton and her entourage including Bill, back in the Whitehouse.
So jen, when Obama beat himself in Nov and McCain did a bradbury, then you will the happiest girl in the USA.
Jen – I’m not seeing the issues – what are the positions that your concerned about.
Obama’s problem seems to be he has used one constituency to gain the nomination and wants to use another to gain the Presidency.
Unfortunately, his left leanining acolytes aren’t keen about going under the bus as their sacrifice to him achieving the POTUS and the new centre constituency he his courting don’t much like flip floppers.
So the question is, where does Obama get the momentum to carry him over the line in November?
GG at 1907
Any specific examples?
Finns- I don’t have clue what you are on about . Are you saying I wasnt McCain to win??? Hardly.
Catrina – reading the NY Times that ws linked earlier today left me with a slight uneasiness. Nothing to worry about though – I still think he is the best thing that could happen in the current climate.
Jen – that NYT article was complete rubbish.
Good Catrina -. I’ll have to go back and have a better look at it – been dropping in and out today.
Besides, unless Obama completely spoke out against the death penalty, banned guns and stated that he was an atheist i’m always going to be disappointed in him! Doesn’t mean I don’t want him as POTUS: just that he doesn’t stand for everything I would wish (what politician ever would!)
GG @ 1884, yes; Think Chris sniffed PK’s chair & was overcome by the moment. Still after the Chaser ‘crucify’ him at Rosehill on you know what day…the plot is afoot & QC’s briefed…
KR pump that corn!
Jen you and your cohorts hated Hillary and never wanted her to win at any cost. So Obama came along with his new politics and the change we can believe in. So you embraced him like a new Messiah.
Whereas we said that he was a phoney. So now he is proving to be a flip flopper, a hollow man. Everyone one now is expressing some doubts and anger with him, even his most ardent supporters, exhibit one Lady Huff.
In might just happen that the flip flop narrative will bite as they are now discovering the character of Obama, namely no character. Then by default McCain wins in November. Admit it, you lot has been conned by his oiliness and we were right.
Jen and Cat
1. Obama supports the death penalty not only for murder, but also for non-murder crimes like child rape. Given that about 10% of the population was molested as a child, that’s an awful lot of capital punishment.
2. Pro-gun
3. Pro-FISA amnesty for illegal wire-tapping
4. Campaign financing flip-flop
5. Pro-funnelling public money to religious causes
To be blunt, he is right of the Rodent.
The Finnigans at 1914
You ran the hate line months ago and that was completely debunked. Now the GOP are attempting to spin flip-flopping and oh gosh – your falling for it hook line and sinker. No surprise there. Instead of ranting, put up an example that you believe is flip flopping – and we can consider the merits of the case. On the other hand, if you stay true to form, you’ll probably ignore facts and stick with you mate General Denial.
Diogenes at 1915
Lets start of with this first item …
Lets look a little deeper shall we?
From the Washington Post back in February.
Five years later, Obama waded into a complex capital-punishment debate after a number of exonerations persuaded then-Gov. George Ryan (R) to empty death row.
Obama wrote in his recent memoir that he thinks the death penalty “does little to deter crime.” But he supports capital punishment in cases “so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment.”
In proposing changes, Obama met repeatedly with officials and advocates on all sides. He nudged and cajoled colleagues fearful of being branded soft on crime, as well as death-penalty opponents worried that any reform would weaken efforts to abolish capital punishment.
Obama’s signature effort was a push for mandatory taping of interrogations and confessions. It was opposed by prosecutors, police organizations and Ryan’s successor, Democrat Rod Blagojevich, who said it would impede investigators.
Working under the belief that no innocent defendant should end up on death row an no guilty one should go free, Obama helped get the bill approved by the Senate on a 58 to 0 vote. When Blagojevich reversed his position and signed it, Illinois became the first state to require taping by statute.
“Obviously, we didn’t agree all the time, but he would always take suggestions when they were logical, and he was willing to listen to our point of view. And he offered his opinions in a lawyerly way,” said Carl Hawkinson, the retired Republican chairman o the Judiciary Committee. “When he spoke on the floor of the Senate, he spoke out of conviction. You knew that, whether you agreed with him or disagreed with him.”
Catrina,
Exhibit (a)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html
Why the plaintive cry if she doesn’t perceive their is a drift.
Exhibit (b) EC, Diogenes and Jen expressing concern about Obama’s flexibility on policy positions. (I realise it is not a huge or representative sample).
If the mainstream papers are crying flip flop, then there is a real perception of “flip flop” forming. You might like to deny it, but politiical reality is going to mug you if you do.
Diog,
1. he will invade Pakistan if suits. Iraq again.
2. he will not allow Jerusalem to be divided ever.
3. He will not end the Cuba embargo
4. he will not meet unconditionally with the leaders of Hamas, Iran, Syria, North Korea, Cuba and venezuala
5. he will not unconditionally and completely withdraw from Iraq
6. Iran was no threat but now is.
To be blunt, he is on the right of Dubya but even Dubya never promised (2)
Sweetie Catrina, as Inspector Closseau once famously quipped “Are you blind”?
GG at 1918
I want someone to make an actual case – show some concrete evidence on a subject of substance. Pointing at articles is easy, anyone can do that, but that’s too easy. And the Finns doing stupid little bullet points doesn’t cut mustard either.
Cat
Some of my list were not examples of flip-flopping but were examples of Obama being miles from “progressive liberal” values.
And his stance on the death penalty is pathetic. He basically says that if there is community outrage, the death penalty should be used to satisfy the need for bloodlust and revenge and keep the masses happy.
Sweetie Catrina, yes my bullet points are stupid but they are pointed and ouch ouch they hurt
Catrina,
As Bill Lawry would say, “it’s all happening”. This is politics. The ‘flip flop” mantra is biting. By the time you get all your empirical evidence collated and analysed the opportunity to do anything about it will have vanished.
Diogenes at 1922
I think you have to take a bigger picture view. The death penalty subject is interesting but I don’t think you can start analysis relative to one’s opinion on his opinion. I think you need to look at context the the United States presents and from there look at the actions Obama has taken. Things like pushing for mandatory taping of interrogations and confessions. What this is doing is improving the processes dealing with justice.
Finns-
to say Obama is more right wing than GWB is utterly stupendously ridiculous.
Diogs – I don’t think we can compare australain politicians with US ones – we have a secular government (apart fro Tony Abbott!)and no-death sentence. The US as it stands sadly has neither. So, as much as I hope it happens in time Obama’s far more moderate stance on the daeth penalty than Bush’s is an improvement, and he is going to push the religious line or he wouldn’t get a toe in the door. I think you and I would both like to see a major cultural shift in America – but it will be slower than we would wish.
I still think he is a good beginning.
GG at 1924
Maybe, but its so much more fun to use your brain once in a while.
Sweetie Catrina, [Maybe, but its so much more fun to use your brain once in a while.] yes, i did warn you not too much of that 4am one woman yapping stuff
Cat
A lot of states in the US don’t have the death penalty. The big picture is that Obama is not only out of step with the rest of the civilised world, but also with much of the US. He doesn’t seem to be showing much leadership: it’s all consensus politics. We are going to end up with a wishy-washy mish-mash of not very much. Still, that’s better than the alternative.
jen, you are doing an excellent job of securing the title for yourself of one woman annoying.
Catrina,
Sometimes you just got to do and use your judgement.
Anyway, what’s this brain stuff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hAg_k69a4M
Diog, Obama has always been a package by the Chicago Media Mafia. They packaged him a certain way to win the nomination and then another way to try to win the POTUS. You might not be able to fool people the second time around.
Apparently there is a Bindy Irwin scares the crap out of me group with 5,800 members in Facebook. She recons she could do better than George Bush and Kevin Rudd. Well Duh! Who couldn’t do better than George Bush. Unbelieveable!
Yes the Dark side is back on about non issues that will win the election again. Why don’t they quote FOX news as a credible source of information?
God they’re so patronising, aren’t they sweety?
Can’t argue their way out of a paper bag.
3 choice, 2 choice, 1 choice…err back to page one; the dinosaur heartland of ‘democracy’…let’s see, now what was it? Ahhh, no choice. Welcome back!
Oils well that ends well.
Finns
He’s certainly not shifting to the center to lose votes. He knows what he’s doing and I’m sure they know that us liberals will still support him, albeit half-heartedly. He’s ensuring he wins by controlling the middle ground which McBush had to leave to win over the large right wing of the Repug Party.
I can see them now standing on a beach. They can see a tidal wave coming, so they turn around and look the opposite way with binoculars.
Maybe they’re counting how many posts I’ve done today, so they can complain.
Chris B,
You could be living in Iran.
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/04/iran-death-penalty-f.html#comments
Yep. That was a very good comeback. I feel so cut!
Sun July 6:
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/nonsequitur;_ylt=A0WTUc4Rc3BIRwkA6woDwLAF
Sun July 6: Been banging on about this issue here for ages without engagement……*sniff, sniff, sniff* ah, fargheddaboudit, that’s just the smell of St. Ecky, the burning martyr:)
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/doonesbury;_ylt=AocVfRU8l6Van7ScSRIjgU_b.sgF
Worse than that. I could be living in Utah!
1943 Enemy Combatant Good one as usual. I like the first one the best, although the second on is good. I better go careful as the dobbers may start complianing about too many posts.
Ecky, let’s not get too carried away with the dancing metaphors just yet. After all, this is politics, and even horizontal folk dancing with the enemy is considered a wholesome pursuit as long it bears fruit in the way of votes. Anyone naive enough to expect Obama NOT to pander to the middle is expecting a saint, and an unelectable one at that, so take ya pick, as they say.
Clearly, Obama’s crew are going for maximum dirty dancing on a few issues, and it’s all as calculated for downside as upside, I’d expect. Remember how we forgave St Kevin the horrendous sin of waving massive tax cuts in the electorate’s face because he’d have gone down screaming without this bit of cynical me-tooism?
The art of compromise is always going to win out.
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/55680
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/55786
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/55805
Yeah, Kirri, reasonable point, as long as Obi’ pas-de-deux doesn’t choreograph into a PNAC two-step post inauguration and the art of compromise doesn’t morph into kitsch of cop out:)
Ecky, further to FISA:
It seems the politics is such that Obama has to thread the needle, and noble protestations about constitutionality will not cut the mustard on the voting floor.
Essentially, a bill which makes the actions of the Telcos illegal, would, by implication, lay the culpability at Bush’s feet (where it clearly belongs), and that ain’t gonna fly in this election year.
Greenwald’s all over this like a rash (well, it IS his patch, so to speak), but the average Joe is not going to follow the details unless it became a stand up legal fight to impeach Bush and drag the telcos who obliged off to court. A huge distraction and a huge wedge issue, with the rightwing going nuts over the pussy Dems who care more for the ‘fine print’ than ‘keeping us safe’ (de blah de blah blah).
Look, it’s a really tough call, but you would NOT open the hornets nest on this issue now, no matter how principled you wanted to be.
1947
#2 says it all Ecky. Take some minor hits with the scalding blowtorch of satire (and some very high level discourse few will read), or try to stand on principle and get totally bogged down in the tarpit just where the Repuglies want you.
It’s an unpleasant no-brainer, but it does show how really shrewd Obama’s people are, since they won’t get stuck on such an issue, or fall into an obvious trap so easily.
Lose a bit of skin, and move on. They’ve weighed it up, and taken the most expedient course to win in Novemeber. Joe Sixpack does NOT read the Constitution, you can bet on that, but he’ll believe any crappola that Faux news dumps into his lounge room about pussy Dems ‘helping terrorists’ with their legal nitpicking.
It’s interesting, after some years of pointing it out, that a few US icons are poised to disappear. From today’s business section in the NYTImes:
Old icons have been written off, with Starbucks boasting nearly twice the market value of General Motors, which some on Wall Street say faces the possibility of bankruptcy.
…and GM was down to 50 year lows the other night, so it’s not wild speculation by some journo here.
Mind you, Starbucks is about to go into hard times too, as most of it’s ‘growth’ was predicated on easy credit and real estate expansion in an economy of free spenders.
Gone.
Time’s are a changin’, as the man said, and a lot faster than many could ever believe possible.
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