• Recent form suggests Roy Morgan has moved from weekly to fortnightly, and it seems the West Australian either didn’t conduct or didn’t publish its normal monthly Westpoll survey of state voting intention.
• George Megalogenis of The Australian wrote yesterday of “special analysis” of Newspoll showing that since the May budget the Prime Minister has suffered “double-digit falls in his popularity among higher-income earners, full-time workers and people aged 35-49”. We are also told the PM “didn’t do as badly among households with children – they trimmed his rating by 7.7 percentage points to 60.9 per cent, while those without children cut it by 10.7 points to 56.8 per cent”; and also that his approval rating among Coalition voters dropped from 40.9 per cent to 28.5 per cent.
• A survey conducted last month by Essential Research shows “93 per cent had either not heard of the emissions trading scheme, had heard about it but didn’t know what it was or knew just a little about it”. However, Chris Johnson of The West Australian reports that “once the concept was explained, respondents overwhelmingly thought it was a good idea. Seventy-two per cent strongly supported the introduction of an ETS and 78 per cent thought transport and petrol should be included.” I see the principals behind Essential Media (the company behind Essential Research) include Ben Oquist, former adviser to Bob Brown and one-time Greens Senate candidate.
• Labor continues to dither over whether to contest the Mayo by-election. No doubt their decision will be soundly based on research, but if I were them I’d go for it: the electorate that almost put John Schumann in parliament seems an unlikely candidate for an emissions trading scheme backlash, and a relatively good result would help shake the Gippsland monkey off the government’s back.
• In the absence of Westpoll we will have to make do with more “unpublished Newspoll figures” provided by Joe Spagnolo of the Sunday Times, showing “41.9 per cent of 418 Liberals polled preferred Mr Carpenter as Premier, instead of their own man (33.5 per cent)”.
• Tasmanian Greens leader Peg Putt will resign from parliament and has handed the leadership baton to Franklin MP Nick McKim. A recount for Putt’s Denison seat will almost certainly deliver it to Cassy O’Connor, who once worked as an adviser to local federal Labor MP Duncan Kerr. This outcome was anticipated at the time of the March 2006 state election by Greg Barns.
• Antony Green and Possum Comitatus have been blogging prolifically of late. Do go and look.
• In the interests of promoting Aussie talent, the Poll Bludger presents a 1993 Rock Classic from the Cruel Sea.
344 Comments
HA I’m the first!
When will Alan Carpenter call the election in WA? Surely he’s a certainty to win it?
The last I heard was that the Western Australian election will be a year before the Queensland election.
Gary (628 on the old thread),
Calling John a “CC denier” is a bit much. I assure you and him that I am real.
If you haven’t already done so take a look at how Nelson responded to journalist’s questions about his change of heart on the timing of an ETS for Aus. Unbelievable.
http://blairboltwatch.wordpress.com/
William great choice in music; Nick Cave is cool!
CC good to see that your real
No Gary I am not a climate change denier I am a climate realist; throughout the Earth’s history the climate has changed and will continue to change.
I wish the Libs would get their act together in WA and promote a leader who is able to challenge Carpenter. Benny Cousins for Premier!
601 John of Melbourne (old thread): “Dario, I do not believe in AGW.”
Chris (3) I could have misinterpreted this sentence so I maybe doing John a disservice.
I’m unsure what you mean by “I assure you and him that I am real.” I have never questioned your “reality”.
A fair portion of Mayo isn’t so much pro-Liberal as anti-Labor (and Green for that matter). That, and the ALP playing dead to get their preferences distributed, was why Schumann almost got up – an independent with a decent profile would always be in with a chance if they manage to get some of the anti-Labor vote and can outpoll the ALP. The ALP’s primary at the last election was way too high for that to happen, and the Libs won it on primaries anyway. Given the national swing and stuff like AWB around Downer, the fact that the Libs won more than 50% of the primaries says that the ALP will never win the seat as it currently exists. Their only hope is to play dead and hope a decent independent puts their hand up.
“No Gary I am not a climate change denier I am a climate realist.” John, let’s cut to the chase,does Gatnaut have a point or is he like the barber’s cat, all p1ss and wind?
Gary he’s all p!ss and wind.
So we don’t have a problem at all? Isn’t that a climate change denier Chris?
Gary just watch all these Liberals flip back into being Climate Change supporters after the next Newspoll gives them a flogging.
It wasn’t that long ago the MSM were crying over those poor hard worked public servants who were being over worked by that mean Kevin Rudd. Now they are being compensated too much by that mean Kevin Rudd. LOL
9 – John of Melbourne
Your posts here were pretty reasonable until a few weeks ago. What went wrong? I tell you, accepting the opinions of Andrew Bolt without question will turn your mind to mush.
Steve K, l’m yet to be convinced in the science of climate change.
I want more robust debate. Befroer it was cooling now its warming…
Gary,
CC=Chris Curtis. CC denier = Chris Curtis denier. My little joke was obviously very little. In my last school my timetable initial changed to CUR, which produced comments about “Kerr’s cur”, something I cannot make jokes, even little ones, about.
John,
The advantage of using my real name on blogs is that if I ever contradict myself, someone will know.
I can assure you John that science isn’t based on debating points.
Charles yes it is. All ideas are published peer reviewed etc… If there were no debates then we’d still be learning about the four elements: wind, fire water and earth.
Remember to always ask why?
Befroer it was cooling now its warming…
That is a complete myth. Unlike for global warming, there was never any serious, widespread belief in the climate science community that we were heading for global cooling, a new ‘ice age’.
l’m yet to be convinced in the science of climate change.
Well, you are in an increasingly small and isolated minority.
Problem is that requiring the kind of proof that ’sceptics’ like you demand before we act, would mean waiting until it is too late to do anything about it. As somebody said before, do you wait until your house has burned down before taking out fire insurance? Of course not.
This is all about risk assessment and management, not absolute certainty.
Remember to always ask why?
If only the AGW sceptics would equally apply that to their own position.
Just Me if it’s so absolute then why do India and China want no part in it?
Why is there so much scepticism within the scientific community?
John
I will accept, for the sake of argument, that your hypothesis on CC is correct. (which it is not
)
So we are running out of fossil fuels – it may be 10 years or 500 but they are on the way out.
So we need to find alternatives – surely it makes sense to wean ourselves off?
So given the fact that coal has tripled in value and oil has doubled surely they can pay to help us?
Or do we just keep paying more and more for coal and oil? Power and electricity? Then let xstrata and rio and billiton make squillions?
Gary Bruce @ 12 –
It wasn’t that long ago the MSM were crying over those poor hard worked public servants who were being over worked by that mean Kevin Rudd. Now they are being compensated too much by that mean Kevin Rudd. LOL
Yes, exc ept that they are not actually getting more. Now they just don’t have to be obedient little lapdogs to get the
productivity‘arse-licker’ bonus and can go back to being proper public servants, i.e. ones that offer fearless advice instead of spouting the Howard party line.Possibly because they see the Western world as the ones who have been pumping most of the CO2 into the air since the industrial revolution began, and feel agrieved that they should have to fix our mess. Yes, now they are beginning to get up there in terms of their current emission levels, but the cumulative damage has been done largely by the west.
Have to change my voter registration in a couple of months. Too early for the WA election? Kimberley should be safe without the extra vote. Must check with the AEC about legal requirements. Can do it online these days.
Ruawake, I’m all for alternatives that can provide power equal to or greater then that given by fossilised fuels.
Ruawake, I’m all for alternatives that can provide power equal to or greater then that given by fossilised fuels.
I’m with John of Melbourne on this one,
When the rising of the red peil is recognised and the individuals such as Al Gore are exposed as being a red menace we will rue the day that women were given the vote. The eastern block countries did not rise up, it was a cunning plot so they could infiltrate the democraic institution of our great western democracy. Climate change is clearly a left wing anti-christian ideology that is based on one simple premise. God is not in control. Clearly to any right thinking individual this must be and anathema.
When the anti capitalist running dogs are exposed the only great leaders left will be the right……..
John of Melbourne @ #5,
indeed, Nick Cave is cool.
That was Tex Perkins and The Cruel Sea – as a diehard Cave fan I gotta pull you up on that – goose!
John
So we are in agreement – now how do we pay for alternatives to be viable? Taxes – Govt. subsidies or an ETS?
You know it makes sense.
Just Me,
“His [James Lovelock's] predicted curve of temperature calls for a cancellation of the warming effect by 1963, a cooling of 1 1/2 d C by 1970, of 4 d C by 1975…which suggests the start of an ice age well before 1980″ (Gordon Rattray Taylor, The Doomsday Book, 1970, p 162). [I can't do the centigrade symbol.] The author also quotes a Dr Earl W. Barrett of the Environmental Science Services Administration suggesting a dip in surface temperature from 15 d C to 4 d C (p 75). The author also canvases global warming. Remember, this is in 1970. He also says that there is no escape from a population of 7 billion by 2000, but there was.
Just Me if it’s so absolute then why do India and China want no part in it?
Don’t understand your question. I am not the one arguing for absolute proof.
And I think you will find that China, at least, is starting to take and act on climate change very seriously indeed. They have no choice, their water supplies are disappearing quickly, in large part due to climate change.
Why is there so much scepticism within the scientific community?
There is not, that claim is just another myth. Try looking at the actual number of peer reviewed science on this. It is overwhelmingly in favour of AGW. Don’t rely on what the MSM report, they are seriously misrepresenting the real situation with the science.
There is genuine debate in science over the details of the process, and exactly how it is going to pan out, but no longer over the basic fact of AGW and its seriousness and urgency.
If there is so much scepticism on the climate science community then you should not have any trouble finding a lot of serious examples of it in the peer reviewed literature. Not just one or two, but at least a few hundred, from genuine climate scientists with solid publication track records in recent times. Good luck finding them.
Should read:
Just Me if it’s so absolute then why do India and China want no part in it?
Don’t understand your question. I am not the one arguing for absolute proof.
And I think you will find that China, at least, is starting to take and act on climate change very seriously indeed. They have no choice, their water supplies are disappearing quickly, in large part due to climate change.
I’m with John of Melbourne on that one too.
Clearly there has not been any independant scientific consensus on whether it was in fact Nick Cave or Tex Perkins, Until all the Tex Perkinses have been run thruogh with an anti-left wing think tank and exposed as yet another picko anti christian immoral movement that harks back to the 1955 split I’m sticking to Nick Cave.
In fact it has to be Nick Cave as I read it in an Anrew Bolt article.
15 Chris – now I understand. I should have worked that one out. Oh well.
Thanks Optomist, I was wrong it is Tex Perkins
Now, now Bob mock me if you will but my views are legitamate.
33 Bob – LOL. Good one.
In Fact I wish people would stop mentioning China. For two reasons.
Firstly they are a pinko communist threat that is infiltrating our democratic institutions not to say the delicate minds of our impressionable children, but more worryingly as they have taken a far greater step towards sustainability than any other country, its called the one child policy. A one child policy is clearly an anti catholic/christian doctrine devised by the nasty anti-development growth Club of Rome, they
Chris Curtis
You are going to have to do better than 2 scientists. To remind you of what I actually said:
there was never any serious, widespread belief in the climate science community
There will always be a handful of dissenters, and incorrect predictions.
Also should point out that Lovelock is now one of those who says that AGW is now unstoppable and will cause an unavoidable major catastrophe for humans.
Ruawake, nulcear energy.
Ruawake, nulcear energy.
Not all Liberals happy with Dr Nelson’s current position on an ETS:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/08/2297977.htm
I have no problem with nulcear (sic) energy per se. The experience in other countries shows that when a nuclear generator is comissioned – wages in the area increase, life expectancy goes up, standard of living rises.
But despite this they will not be built in Australia – Chernobyl in the NIMBY. You get my drift.
Just me,
How many scientists do I need to find to justify the belief that global cooling was seen as a serious problem in the 1970s?
Ruawake sad I know
.
I just saw on CH10 news Nick Xenophon is keen for ETS.
Short term political gain, long term political pain for Brendan. Add Susan Jeanes to the list.
Bob Santamaria @ 33,
pissing myself laughing. That was priceless.
Early prediction: Labor and Rudd get a boost in the next Newspoll.
Early prediction: Labor and Rudd get a boost at the next election.
How many scientists do I need to find to justify the belief that global cooling was seen as a serious problem in the 1970s?
Well, the vast majority didn’t. How few do I need to argue that the global cooling claim was neither supportable nor supported by mainstream science?
If you are going to argue the absolute claim that the prediction of global cooling was made by at least one scientist, then you are correct, but in a pretty meaningless way.
Just because a small handful of scientists might have made that incorrect prediction, doesn’t mean that scientists and science broadly held that view, and it is unreasonable to try to discredit all climate science (especially the most up to date stuff) just because a small handful got it totally wrong 4 decades ago.
Article on global cooling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling
Scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming
BS,
“Indeed the most oppressive, pseudo-fascist aspects of Australia’s laws were introduced by ‘Labour’ (sic) Governments…….the blatant ultra-nationalism and racism that may be considered characteristic features of the ALP leadership’s official ideology, have been subdued somewhat……the role of the ALP as a racist, chauvinistic, anti-working class, pillar of the bourgeois state…’ (Red Moat, Vol. 3, No. 28)
You can do parody. My quote is for real.
Who cares if we are cooling or warming – don’t waste William’s bandwidth discussing it.
There are so many good reasons for an ETS even if climate is not changing at all.
You go CC
Ruawake you’re right no more on alleged climate change for William’s sake.
Just Me,
I’m not trying to discredit scientists who believe in global warming, just challenging your claim that global cooling was ‘never’ widely or seriously believed in the climate scientist community. I remember it was widely discussed in the 1970s. It may now be discredited and disregarded, but I don’t accept the ‘never’. However, you have constructed the argument in a way that makes you unbeatable because you can dismiss anyone who disagrees as not serious, not widespread and not a climate scientist.
Compare and contrast the handful of scientists listed as opposing the consensus view on AGW, (in the Wikipedia link provided by JoM @51), with the many thousands of scientists represented by the organisations listed in the following article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change
In particular, note the following results of a survey of the actual peer reviewed literature by Oreskes (2004):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Oreskes.2C_2004
Chris Curtis @ 30 -
His [James Lovelock’s
While he did come up with the Gaia hypothesis, Lovelock is not a climate scientist, but a medical doctor, abet one with a PhD. His main claim to fame is inventing the electron capture detector.
Whatever his past position on an ice Age return, he seems now a firm believer in CC. Two years ago he wrote that because of global warming:
“billions of us will die and the few breeding pairs of people that survive will be in the Arctic where the climate remains tolerable”
(James Lovelock: The Earth is about to catch a morbid fever that may last as long as 100,000 years)
MayoFeral,
I didn’t know James Lovelock was a medical doctor or the inventor of the electron capture detector, but I did know that he had changed his mind on climate. My only point was that global cooling was regarded seriously in the 1970s.
Seems we are in a mine is bigger than yours shouting match.
http://www.petitionproject.org/index.html
Touche !
I’ve just hunted down a piece I wrote on Tex Perkins for the Herald-Sun in 2001, and am thrilled to discover I managed to work in a reference to Laurie Oakes.
Now we have zedder linking to a site with a dodgy petition – signed by a couple of scientists after they died. From 10 years ago.
Can we please raise the level of debate.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine
As an atheist sometimes I get regailed by Christains who say “zedder please believe in the lord. It does not cost you anything and at the end of your life you will be saved. What is there to lose?”
That line of reasoning is known as Pascal’s Wager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
In many ways I see parallels with AGW reasoning. This has been espoused by many people here along the lines ‘Reducing pollution is a good thing. If we don’t act now we could be doomed’ and similar lines of reasoning. No problems there, I want to see a cleaner climate as well. But there is this thing called intellectual honesty. We should clean up the environment because we want to clean up the environment. Constructing dishonest reasons to force us to do this will only create a cynical climate when we really need to act decisively in the future.
Now we have Nelson going backwards while the rest of the world is going forward.
“RUSUTSU, Japan – The Group of Eight leading industrial nations on Tuesday endorsed halving world emissions of greenhouse gases by 2050, edging forward in the battle against global warming but stopping short of tough, nearer-term targets.
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The G-8 countries — the United States, Japan, Russia, Germany, France, Britain, Canada and Italy — also called on all major economies to join in the effort to stem the potentially dangerous rise in world temperatures.
“The G-8 nations came to a mutual recognition that this target — cutting global emissions by at least 50 percent by 2050 — should be a global target,” said Japanese Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda, who announced the endorsement.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080708/ap_on_re_as/g8_climate_change
zedder –
the difference is that there is no evidence of a God- if you choose to believe it’s a matter of faith.
Climate change and global warning have so much evidence to support it that it is not a question of faith – believing it’s NOT true is a far greater act of faith. The facts are there: you are perfectly entitled to ignore if you want of course.
On cue Mesmerelda muddies Nelson’s vision:
“”We support the Shergold recommendations that were given to the Howard government in 2007 that there be an emissions trading scheme in Australia,” she said.
“Peter Shergold said that an emissions trading scheme was difficult but do-able by 2012 and we remain committed to that policy.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/08/2298109.htm?section=justin
That’s the problem with the Opposition having no policy on anything, every Shadow Minister has their own opinion on everything. Looks like they have been coached by the Queensland Liberals who have years of experience in these tactics.
The Liberals, their fellow traveller Greens and the disaffected former Labor members of the WA Upper House sure are a bunch of Bumblers.
They set up a House Committee to skewer the Labor Government for the raid on the Sunday Times. You know, where the WA police sent about thirty cops to the paper’s office to gather evidence about a Departmental leak to reporter Paul Lampathakis.
Anyway, the gist of the criticism of the Government was that it abused it’s powers by sooling the cops on, and generally over reacted to a minor issue.
In true Milne style, the Libs ranted that a Royal Commission was required into a major coverup when Carpenter politely pointed out that no member of the Government had anything to do with it.
Carpenter obviously refused, so the jolly conspiracists set up their own personal inquiry in the only place they could, the Upper House.
So what was the question they asked Lampathakis? “Wo was the source of your leak?” Wrong question!. Lampathakis of course refused to answer and the Lib./ Greens Axis was obliged to threaten him with imprisonment.
Now who’s over reacting?
Cardinal rules of cross examination, don’t ask a question unless you know what the answer will be, and don’t ask a question unless the answer will futher your purpose.
65 – ruawake
Bloody hell – these Lib politicians really are a mess. In the interests of good governance I hope they can get their sh1t together sometime soon as a one party state isn’t good for democracy.
Wo = who.
WB@60 I get it!
As long as we put “Laurie Oakes” in a post
it’s allowed..yes?
lol…before you flipout WB… twas a joke ok…OK
68 Steve k it usually takes oppositions the best part of a decade to move from incoherent rabble as the Liberals are showing on Climate Change to developing coherent policy on a broad front.
Here we have Nelson running around in circles with a new position every day while Bishop is lost in the Howard era. Neither have probably even bothered to read the report and Greg Hunt is missing in action. Turnbull has been silent and Labor will start to look competent as the heat and pressure begins to build on the Opposition.
Lol, Laurie Oakes legend, I’ve seen it in many posts.
Is anyone else watching INSIGHT on SBS right now? A discussion on petrol prices! Peter Dutton is looking like a complete dill, a lot of support for Fuel Watch from WA!
Yes Steve, Malcolm Turnball’s silence is deafening!
Rudd pointed out the Liberals have adopted 7 different positions on an ETS in 12 months!
Progressive, I am sure that Andrew Robb will be Googling right now to find a response to the G-8 meeting in Japan.
Progressive,
funny you should mention Malcolm. I’m wondering if he hasn’t put his ambitions on the backburner for now and is willing to wait until after the next election to take over with a more solid support base in the party room.
Would make sense in that I can’t see the poor old Libs having much of a shot regardless of leadership.
Mal is briefing his “brief” re HIH
zedder, I’m going to have to take a rain check on last night’s- I’ll watch the stuff you nominate, then come back and debate impact on domestic/global policy – sister with brain tumour is going into terminal stage with family mess to sort out. The science on this has been interesting! Not bad, but you’re always feeling your way to try and evaluate whether or not something is going to be effective. Got to go interstate shortly, so won’t have time to do our deal justice, but will try and pick up later. What was it John Lennon wrote about life and other plans? William, that could be apposite!
Fulvio, Brian and I go way back!
Andrew Robb’s obsession with Japan is slightly disturbing!
He must be pissed off that he didn’t get an invite to the G8 Summit.
Thay’s OK Harry, there are always more important things in life than PB. Maybe the best thing about this place is that it allows us to forget about our day to day life and contemplate and discuss the big issues that confronts all of mankind.
As for Brian was he the Brian that posted a lot on the sadly missed Inside Politics website? He certainly is a prolific poster on LP.
When at many a crossroad in my life, I’ve often asked “What would Tex Perkins do?”.
On the Malcolm Turnbull silence, He almost has as many Facebook friends as Heavy Kevvie now, so many he found a higher calling?
I don’t know why anyone would think global warming is a vote winner for either side. The only thing that Jim and Jane Stupid , of Overcommitted Street Kellyville, want is for someone to reassure them that they are keeping the swarthy, unwashed hordes at bay, the abos in their place as well as telling them that it’s nobodies business except Jim and Jane’s that they go into unbearable debt to try and keep up with Cameron and Emma Snot next door while they Hoover up every single imported appliance they can find at Castle Towers.
That someone was the one and only John Winston Howard. He didn’t give a continental about global warming either but unfortunately for Jim, Jane, Cameron and Emma, he’s gone and poor old Brendan doesn’t kick Raghead like the old champ did. Doesn’t make them feel any better about shopping safaris either, with strange promises of five cent petrol price cut in the midst of a fifty cent rise. Sigh. Things simply aren’t the same just the Windsor Road these days. Maybe young Tim or Richard will climb over that white picket fence, turn back the clock to 1954 and give us some good, old-fashioned incentivation. And kick the tripe out of some reffos. Golly, it’s getting warm, Jane…
83 Yep, HIH is a higher calling in my book, SL.
Strangely Stephen Lloyd, at major crossroads in my life I think I should get a lawyer, better get a real good one
TP would approve!
RO, if he hadn’t lost to Maxine, they’d be forgiving and forgetting about now!
Harry, sincerely all the best to you and the family
HSO, that is very sad to hear. Hope your family eventually comes out of the process strengthened from the experience.
Harry,
I am so sorry to hear of your sister’s illness. There is no comfort in facing the tragedy that life throws at us. Take care.
Chris Curtis @ 58 -
My only point was that global cooling was regarded seriously in the 1970s.
Yes, but it is disingenuous to suggest that we should therefore dismiss global warming as equally dubious.
The global cooling theory consisted of little more than: ‘ice ages have come about every xx years and its about xx years since the last one started so we can expect another one in the next millennia or two.’ The only ones at the time claiming it would happen within their lifetimes where fringe commentators like Lovelock.
Unlike the considerable amount of data supporting a warming, there was virtually nothing underpinning an imminent freeze, no appreciably colder winters and summers, no increase in glaciers, no wall of ice descending on London, no fall in sea levels, no extremely wet years here, etc; just a theory based on past cycles.
Missed in the beginning was that in past ice ages there was virtually no input from humanity, much less industrialised humanity. At the end of the last one the human population of the planet was a few hundred thousand hunter gatherers who were only recycling plant based carbon through the atmosphere. It was when the cooling proponents started looking at what affect fossil fuel guzzling 20th century people would have on the theory that they began to realise the extent of our impact on the planet’s heat balance.
BTW – the global cooling theory isn’t invalid. GC just hasn’t started yet. It still may sometime in the next few thousand years. OTOH, there is a large body of data showing global warming has begun and the effects are accelerating.
Sorry about your sister, HSO. Loosing a loved one is always difficult, but the big C often makes it much harder. It can be a cruel bugger.
Take care
For anyone considering the debate on the extent of global warming..
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/ahead/ENSO-summary.shtml
I personally found the media posturing around Australia’s drought and the El Nino effect to be enlightening
Up until last year, you would hear any number of environmentalist, Bob Brown, Turnbull (as environment minister) etc claim the drought in Australia’s south east was a classic example of global warming. “Look out people, we are all going to die” etc, etc etc…
Then in June 2007 the El Nino pattern finished and, what’s more, it finished well within the historical range for the El Nino experience.
Now we have returned to normal rainfall patterns, is anyone from the kyoto camp blushing? Is anyone confessing the recent drought wasn’t global warming, it was just normal climate change…Nope!!!….just more horsesh1t from the greenies
Thank you all. You have all been just the bee’s knees, really. It’s a $#%$%$% at this stage. I hope you never have to go through it yourself, or with someone close to you. But many of us probably will. May we meet our tragedies with compassion, may we anticipate our tragedies if we possibly can, may we try and stave off the tragedies if we possibly can. I’m sorry, I’m blathering. And I can’t even blame the 3 legged cat, who’s gone to sleep on the couch. Very sensible, and so shall I. Night all.
Harry, best wishes to you and yours from me!
We’re all sending our prayers and good thoughts to your sister!
MayoFeral,
“…it is disingenuous to suggest that we should therefore dismiss global warming as equally dubious.” I made no such suggestion, though I guess you can reply that you never suggested I did.
“The global cooling theory consisted of little more than: ‘ice ages have come about every xx years and its about xx years since the last one started so we can expect another one in the next millennia or two.’ ” There was more evidence than this in the reference I gave above.
What Progressive said.
Very best wishes Harry.
HSO all the very best wishes.
John Who ??
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/09/2298239.htm?section=justin
Harry-
ditto.
You and Kirribilli are both in awful places right now and your cyber friends are thinking of you. Best wishes getting through this sad time.
Mr Squiggle – that’s a little harsh.I really don’t think ‘the Greenies’ can be held up as the ones who made up Global warmimg. i think you’ll find there has been quite a bit of discussion on it around the entire planet from all kinds of quarters.
Oh Dear, it doesn’t get any better than this. Brough has written to the Nats demanding to be named ‘Big Chief Pineapple’ by today or he will scuttle the Pineapple Party.
On a morning when people are waking up with the carping, whinging tones of John Howard ringing in their ears coutesy of the ABC’s AM program, here we have another Howeird former Minister behaving like a spoilted juvenile. Just a week after they tried to run the propaganda line that the Pineapple Party had ‘overwhelming support. Too funny for words really.
One thing that is for certain is that the voters of Longman and Bennelong got it right at the 2007 election in dumping this pair out of office.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23991768-2702,00.html
Wonder if they’ll call Dolly in from the Med?
‘Four years after filing a closure report in the wheat import case, the CBI on Tuesday said it had reopened investigations, conducted searches at the residences of former State Trading Corporation chairman S M Dewan and agent H R Sardana and arrested them…
CBI officials said that the hundreds of pages recovered during the searches go beyond what the Australian inquiry uncovered. The documents recovered include internal correspondence on the deal to import two million tonnes of wheat between then STC chairman Dewan and agent Sardana and the opening of the bank account in Cayman Islands where the commissions were paid.’
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/333125.html
Costello supporters are warning him not to dump on Howard in his coming ‘memoirs’. Even as little as a few paragraphs will end his chance of being leader . (I doubt he has any such ambitions now if indeed he ever really did). Touchy lot!
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/backers-warn-costello-not-to-tip-bucket-on-howard/2008/07/08/1215282835451.html
Rx @ 103 -
Wonder which phone box the Cossie-for-PM supporters met in?
What’s he going to write about if he can’t dump on Howard? How he lay back in the hammock ignoring inflation, the joys of dropkicking the Dollar Sweet employees, or how he was too stupid to realise many workers would be worse off under WorkChoices? I doubt Fairfax would think that was worth the reported “substantially less than $50,000″ for the book.
Harry, chin up mate, the big C is a bastard of a thing, the one thing that gets me through the tough times is the thought that this too will pass–and it will– then you’ll be able to laugh and remember the good times together, i just wanted you to know i’m thinking of you.
Re rainfall paterns returning to normal,
This is the whole point, firstly its wrong, secondly there is a disconnect in the debate, one side is dealing with scientific evidence that we are headed into unknown and extremely dangerous area. This could result in huge dislocation, a speeding of species extinction,(Currently 10 per day) and massive economic ruin.
The broader issue here is how do we make decisions. Andrew Bolt and his mates think that arguments should be made to fit and that if you shout louder than other you win. Really its a great opportunity for peoples intellectual rigour to be tested. Lets start a list of those who think the planet is flat, that washing your hands before surgery is unnecessary and that climate change is not real and from now on discount them from all debate. They simply do not deserve to be included.
As for the greenies issue, Oh how that hurts these people. Its not that the Greens were right, its that the Greens tend to base there decision making on scientific evidence. Look at the drug debate, after years conservative policy the drugs are still running amok, yet they still shout at any move to treating the debate in any other way than a law and order debate. Unfortunately the mass media are still in the game pushing the debate. Disgraceful, if it wasn’t so serious it would be a hoot.
There is a greatt opportunity for a study to see at what point these people change their minds, I can’t wait to hear Andrew Bolt to fess up. OK I was wrong, if he lives for another 40 years its going to have to happen.?
I may surprise some here , but not all liberal party members are complete idiots, climate change may be the issue that finally splits it.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23991632-2702,00.html
My money is however still on it happening in the months after the next election.
Steve: the QLD Liberals couldn’t organise a chook raffle, let alone a merger with the Nationals! Hilarious!
Yes, I noted the ABC is still falling over themselves to worship at the altar of John Howard!
There’s more Howard atavism going on than just the push to stop Costello singing like a canary.
In today’s Australian Andrew Robb makes a comment on Liberal Party greenhouse policy:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23991632-2702,00.html
The article also suggests that some of the wetter Libs (e.g. Peter Georgiou, Judy Moylan) are urging “Nelson to lead on carbon.” It’s good general advice, as I will argue below.
Meanwhile, in Perth Howard is kibbitzing on national politics, presumably because he thinks he’s still popular. He lost the election and lost his seat, but he still thinks he wuz robbed. That’s chutzpah.
How do they all get away with this? Why hasn’t Labor under Rudd crushed this inept bunch?
Because Rudd is still fighting the election.
He seems scared to take them on lest he lose a few votes in some marginal constituency which might be vital on polling day. Except there’s no polling day imminent.
It’s not only the Libs who haven’t woken up to the new reality of Labor being in government. It seems like Labor hasn’t woken up either.
Rudd gives the impression of a batsman too scared of losing his wicket to get on with it and and score the runs needed to win. As a result the bowling side is crowding around him, hoping to catch him out on a fluffed shot at silly point. There’s a lot of sledging of course, which seems to be affecting his concentration, making him even more cautious. Rudd needs to hit a few boundaries, maybe a couple over the pavilion roof into the carpark, perhaps one or two straight at the fielders to get them thinking about their own skins.
There’s no point being not-out at at the end of fifty overs but losing the game by five runs. Every time he defends when he should attack it’s not only a ball wasted, but it’s also time wasted, plus the bowling side gets a confidence boost. The longer he hesitates and defends, more pressure is placed on him to score big, to take risks, to try to up the run rate as the innings approaches stumps. He has to cram more action into a shorter time.
The other batsmen on his side don’t have Rudd’s technique. If he fails they’ll find it harder to do what has to be done without him. Besides that, Rudd’s cautious approach is boring for the crowd. They’re starting to slow handclap.
Maybe, when there were ten overs to go, five wickets in hand and fifty to score, the slow and steady approach looked do-able. But now that the pressure’s on, more and more – maybe too much – has to go right to make the outcome certain. Mistakes will be harder to recover from if he wastes the time and opportunities he’s achieved for himself. Process is one thing. Technique another. But winning is everything.
Rudd is not being positive enough. He’s fond of saying “the Devil is in the details”. But I think he revels in the details. If details were a swimming pool Rudd would do laps all day long. He’s one of those guys who loves a problem to solve, or more correctly, the process of solving it, rather than the end result. He lacks the ability to inspire with rhetoric, so buries himself in jargon and minutae. “The Devil is in the details.”
I was watching a History Channel program the other night called Apollo Eleven: The Untold Story. It recounted just how close the lunar lander came to running out of fuel during its final approach: 15 seconds, as the astronauts took over manual control of the LEM looking for a safe spot to set down. The computer – described as being “between a digital watch and a calculator in complexity, but closer to a digital watch” – had continually overloaded and reset itself on the way down to the lunar surface. Some guy with a short-sleeved white short and a NASA haircut had a stop watch going, counting down to disaster when the watch reached “zero fuel left”. Nixon had already written the funeral speech in case the flaky take-off rockets failed (as they had in training, many times).
Yet all went well and the astronauts got back alive. The point was made that if someone had said “Let’s go to the Moon” today, in 2008, they’d be laughed out of the room. Yet they did it – 39 years ago – in 1969. And all because a man had said, in 1961,
Kennedy had inspired America to achieve, not made excuses for doing nothing. If you think it’s difficult to contemplate a Moon mission today, imagine how impossible it must have seemed in 1961.
Instead of issuing truisms like, “The Devil is in the details”, letting Penny Wong loose to bore us to sleep, and wonking on about “outcomes” and “policy objectives” , instead of obfuscating about what we all know to be the truth of “short term pain for long term gain” – for fear of losing some of “the paint” off his popular appeal – Rudd should be out there inspiring Australians with a vision for the future, exciting us with the possibilities of a new world, with new technologies and better lives and livliehoods for our children and grandchildren. All of these may be what he has in mind, privately, but he’s not letting us in on the secret if it is.
There is a way of beating the other team, who are really no more than a scratch collection of has-beens, apologists for the glorious past of Howardism, cheap-shot spruikers, climate change denialists and tree-hugging absolutists. It’s to go direct to the people and challenge them to do something about Global Warming, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.
Left without any inspiration, the Mob pays attention to things they shouldn’t be paying attention to: 5c a litre excise reductions, a few dollars here or there in welfare adjustments, the Piers Akermans and the Glenn Milnes of this world who can only carp and snipe from the sidelines with their malevolent commentatries. But the slow hand-clap can be stopped instantly with a demonstration of guts and verve, with an alternative injected into the heads of the huddled masses besides penny-ante crapola concerning the nits left over after the first round of nitpicking.
If we lead the world in our response to Global warming, we stand a good chance of leading the world in a whole new approach to the way we deal with our environment and our standards of living, and in many other fields as well: technology, philosophy, science, health and education. Somebody needs to articulate this. Somebody needs to lead us out of the wilderness, to make our world a better place. What we don’t need is someone who only offers a slower, more cautious death, but death just the same.
At the moment I’m afraid there’s a vacuum of inspiration in Australia. Rudd is clearly tired and overworked. He’s concentrating too much on not making a mistake, on getting his stroke play perfect. In the meantime the available opportunities erode away, and when he does find his groove, his moxy, there won’t be enough time left to do all the things he has to do.
Sure, we need perspiration. Rudd is good at that. But we need inspiration too. If Rudd can’t deliver, then we should look for someone who can.
I wouldn’t say that, but it definitely takes a while for an Opposition to make the transition into behaving like a government once they win office. They’re certainly not there yet.
109 “Rudd should be out there inspiring Australians with a vision for the future, exciting us with the possibilities of a new world, with new technologies and better lives and livliehoods for our children and grandchildren. All of these may be what he has in mind, privately, but he’s not letting us in on the secret if it is.”
I thought that that might be the role of the whole cabinet BB. By the way, I remember a time when Bill Lawry carried his bat through the innings when Australia lost a test match and abused the other players for not staying with him. The cartoonists had a field day drawing Lawry with cobwebs all over him.
Steve,
Rudd’s the Leader. He should lead.
That’s true BB but I think the whole cabinet has a responsibility to explain the inspirational aspects that their departments are achieving.
There is no doubt that thousands of people are involved in making programs work and nothing is more soul destroying than beavering away constantly only to see whingers and knockers getting trivial diversions up and running in opposition to the work being done.
But Steve, Labor lets the “whingers and knockers” do their whingeing and knocking. A mate of mine pointed out to me Howard’s “Rudd has no shame” comments this morning.
My mate’s comment?
I can assure you that private business doesn’t hesitate to blow their own trumpet if they come up with ideas that are supposed to improve our lives or make life less difficult in some way. The overwhelming message since the change of government has been life is tough and expect it to become tougher.
Exactly.
What about:
“Life is tough but expect it to become better… and here’s how…”?
11+ years of reactionary Howardism enculturated onto an already conservative electorate has perhaps rendered the concept of Grand Visions obsolete?
Rx, my objection is that by the default the Howeird Government is being painted as the source of all fun and good times.
Well dust it off and put it out there again. There’s nothing stopping them except the log jam at the top.
Howard said one thing I agreed with in his speech yesterday:
What BB is yearning for is a progressive society with a progressive leader. I regret to opine that progressiveness, inasmuch as it continued to exist after Whitlam, has been calculatedly bred out of the national psyche by the reactionary rodent and his throwback accomplices. Australia now seems more timid and inward-looking than at any time since Keating. I honestly don’t see how this can be turned around, in the short term at least.
Rx that may well be the case but a major reform such as knocking back the amount of air pollution and replacing it with more clean technologies surely affords an opportunity to turn that thinking on it’s head at many levels of Australian society both in the short and long term view.
Well, let’s not try then!
Honestly, Rx, if a crisis that threatens to kill millions, inundate the ocean shores, bring on the spread of disease and wreck the environment – all within perhaps one or two lifetimes hence – can’t produce at least someone, somewhere with a bit of vision and optimism that we can not only beat it, but beat it and prosper better than ever, then something is truly lacking in our leadership.
Better to live a life and try to win than to die a safe death.
I agree, Steve, it offers the opportunity. What we have in Kev, I think, is a visionary (in some but not all ways) who is scrunched up in a conservative mould, a mould that suits the times and the electorate.
Can’t help remembering with disappointment what happened to the last visionary to lead Australia: Mr Keating. He with his “Big Picture” was way in front of an electorate that, even then, was very conservative. He left them behind … and at the 96 election they left him behind.
In the time since then, Howard has largely won the culture wars, leaving in his baleful wake a nation more frightened, narrow-minded and constrained by conservatism than is good for it.
Will be glad to be proven wrong however.
123 “In the time since then, Howard has largely won the culture wars, leaving in his baleful wake a nation more frightened, narrow-minded and constrained by conservatism than is good for it.”
But at the same time Rx the Australian electorate has voted decisively against the Liberal Party and continues to produce poll figures that can only be read as the population wanting the changes that they voted for at the last election. The main two issues were obviously the dismantling of workchoices and action to improve the environment.
Another thing RX, don’t believe all the hype that everyone is tightening their belts to the extent that big bucks still can’t be made.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/average-city-unit-nudges-1-million/2008/07/08/1215282803844.html
If you want to retard a country, let it be led for a decade by a Machiavellian ultra-reactionary rodent.
Going back to Keating again. Assuming he was voted out because he couldn’t get the electorate to keep up with him and his “Big Picture”. (I know there were other reasons, too, such as the “recession we had to have”, but for the sake of argument, bear with me).
Waiting in the wings was the reactionary rodent, who, you’ll remember always said that he would triumph “when the times suited him”.
So you had a visionary who was too progressive for the electorate, enthusiastically rejected for someone so reactionary he described himself as “the most conservative leader the Liberal Party ever had”.
The times suited the reactionary Howard.
And it’s only got worse since. He set to work to undermine any progressive/left-leaning threats that stood in the way of the realisation of his benighted white picket fince ideals.
Agree with Steve on this. The nation is crying out for leadership and something to look forward to, rather than the bunker mentality of the Opposition that sees any deviation from our current industrial and technological base as a threat to entrenched and soon to be irrelevant liveliehoods. The Opposition’s policy is to cram to the stern of the Titanic, but the end is still inevitable.
The assumption behind Nelson’s policy (if you can call it that) is to accept that our way of life can never and should never change. Following on from this, we will still want as much petrol as we care to use (even though petrol will run out in the next 50 or so years, at least as a retail commodity). We will still be working in coal mines or coal-fired power stations because that’s what our fathers did and we want our children to do the same. In both these cases anything Rudd introduces that threatens these monoliths will be used to carp and whinge around the edges about “Labor wreckers”.
Rudd’s policy – to confront and begin the process fo defeating Global Warming – is a good one, no doubt about it. But he is defending it not as an opportunity to achieve things we never thought we could achieve, but as a dire necessity that might, just might, save us from species annihilation. Perhaps true, but a little touch of upside wouldn’t hurt either.
For just one example… our far western plains towns and cities are dying by inches from drought. This will only get worse. Yet the droughts ahead mean clear skies for these geographic areas: perfect for solar electricity generation.
The doomsayer says, “But power stations out in the desert have transmission lines too long to be efficient in supplying power to the cities on the coast.”
The visionary will say, “Sure, so lets relocate some of our industries to the desert or semi-arid areas. This will make best use of our sunlight resources, only available because fo the chrinic droughts, and will give new life to those dying towns.”
Look at Arizona, or for that matter, our own Broken Hill: both examples of industry and life blooming in the desert. As to water, there’s be enough electricity to desalinate or to even pump water from the coastal areas. That visionary, and positive. It gives people hope. And wins votes as a result of that hope into the bargain.
Rx, he is only a page in history now. The trick is to learn from the past and move on. At this stage Rudd has the numbers to reform pretty much whatever the Australian People voted for in November.
Agreed steve. Howard had the indignity of not only losing the election but his seat as well. To say he won the wars entirely would be stretching it. The country woke up to him and royally booted him out.
I think we are listening way too much to the story the MSM is trying to spread that the government is ‘in trouble’. Blanket negative media coverage for the last 3 months at least, and the WORST mainstream poll still puts the ALP in landslide win territory. The average voter isn’t listening right now, because they had enough of it before the election. They know the media wants to bring him down and be in control… it’s that obvious.
Rudd is putting his head down and getting on with the job. We should give him the opportunity to do it.
Just saw your post #126 Rx.
You’re advocating trench warfare against conservatism. It would be ugly, brutal and grim.
I’m advocating a war of manoeuvre. Outflank the bastards. Make them look like Luddite fools.
If Rudd requested a national address to the nation on Global Warming, I would support it. This would get around the journalists and the Murdoch commentators by going direct. I would also support Nelson being given equal time. In fact I would require it, confident that his small-minded opportunistic bleatings would be seen for exactly that.
Rudd should offer us a choice: reture to the bunkers and the trenches and try desperately (and unsuccessfully) to maintain the present status quo ,or go out and show the world what we’re capable of, with all the dividends that can pay back to us in the process.
Dario #129: Rudd may be doing the job, but he’s not telling us inspirationally enough what the job is. He’s mired in the nuts and bolts of the machine rather than out on the race course setting lap records.
109 Bushfire – Too harsh, too soon. You are making the same mistake the MSM is making.
BB @ 131 :
I understand what your trying to say BB, but if the race callers ( In this case the MSM ) decide they want the horse to be a nag, and they keep repeating he is a nag, then no amount race wins will change their minds. Nevermind that their own personal favourite hasn’t won a race at all, runs all over the track, is losing jockeys to overseas connections, but still the race callers give his stable all the good press.
He could win every race he enters but the race callers will say he should of won by a bigger margin.
131 BB, I think he has been trying to get the message out, but the MSM isn’t letting it get through. Instead they have been beating up anything they can lay their hands on, and stifling any message. I mean, even the Garnaut report hardly got ANY real airplay on major news bulletins!
“Rudd is putting his head down and getting on with the job. We should give him the opportunity to do it.” Spot on Dario.
You don’t turn the Titanic (maybe an unfortunate ship to focus on) around in 7 months. The only thing that will get positive reactions and opinions are runs on the board ie positive results. The best way of getting positive results is to do the hard preparation and planning required, which takes time.
The Greens in Queensland seem to have decided that it is better to change the system than put up policies that will ensure the Greens are represented in the Queensland Parliament.
http://publicpolity.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/a-new-electoral-system-for-queensland/
I haven’t got a problem with any of the above comments (#132 – #136). I agree hard work needs to be done. But inspiration is also needed.
I used the allegory of Kennedy’s “because they are hard” speech in relation to the Moon race. Kennedy didn’t have any details. In fact most NASA guys thought it was impossible. But it was done. Kennedy provided the goal.
The driver who is fixing the race car can put it one of two ways.
A. “I’m trying to get this petrol pump working better.”
B. “I’m trying to win the race by having a better petrol pump.”
At the moment Rudd is just telling us of the means, not the goals. And he’s telling us precious little of the means, when you come to think of it. That’s because there’s no details mapped out yet. He should substitute the goals until the means become clear, otherwise the slagger-offerers will have a field day… and already are.
Almost everything said about Global Warming is either negative or nuts and bolts. I want to be able to believe (at least for my grandkids’ sakes) that the goal is worthwhile. Even if I was a climate denier (which I am not) I would have to say that a program which put Australia in a better position to influence worlds affairs and technological development was a good thing in itself.
The implication in just about everything Rudd has said on the subject so far is that the only purpose behind an ETS is to keep the race car on the road, nothing about having a better race car when the modification is done, whether that modification turns out to be necessary or not. He seems to have bought into Nelson’s position that what we have at present cannot and should not be changed.
It doesn’t have to be a Whitlam “vision thing” or a Keatingesque “Big Picture”. They were perceived as Whitlam dreaming and Keating being arrogant respectively. The “Rudd Future” needs to be solid and achieveable, something to work towards. Bleating about how Howard rooned it all for us deep thinkers is defeatism.
The little rodent seems to have gotten away with murder last night in Perth. Somebody should put him in his place and quickly… and brutally. Letting him get away with speeches like that seemingly because it was so pathetic as to be unworthy of comment is just concedingthe floor to him: a failed loser.
the Mob is frightened. heir whole world is turning topsy turvey. They might start to believe it really is all down to the Rudd government if something isn’t done soon, in a big and meaningful way (not just cheap spin doctor tactics) to turn this around.
Rome wasn’t built in a day, let alone 6 months or so. It’s going to take a few terms of government to reverse the damage done to this country and its institutions by the Rodent and his henchmen!
132
Gary Bruce Says:
109 Bushfire – Too harsh, too soon. You are making the same mistake the MSM is making.
and @ 135
“Rudd is putting his head down and getting on with the job. We should give him the opportunity to do it.” Spot on Dario.
Second that.
I am sympathetic to a lot of what you say, BB, you are passionate, insightful and articulate. But you gotta give the Rudd government another year or so before passing too much judgement. While many who voted for the government may not personally warm to Rudd, I think he and the government have a lot more solid political capital up their sleeve (particularly on climate change) than some do, especially in the MSM, who are unlikely to EVER generally support Rudd.
And, as others have said, it is also going to take some time for Rudd to change the corrupt and corrosive political cultural legacy of the Howard years, and he will get little help in that from the MSM.
JM #140… your position and mine can easily co-exist.
There’s no direction at the moment in regards to Global Warming countermeasures. It’s all nuts and bolts.
We need a goal, and there is no reason why this can’t be articulated while the nuts and bolts work continues. It would suck the oxygen from the naysayers and the quibblers at the margins. Let’s hear their vision. All we’re getting is whingeing and carping, feed and feeding off the publics very real fears of potential economic collapse in the near future. Consumer sentiment is a very powerful thing once it becomes entrenched in negative territory. Let’s have something to look forward to, as well as doing the hard work.
“We do not do these things because they are easy. We do them because they are hard,”… and the benefits will be immense if we get in on the ground floor, for once, and stop this “follower nation” status that has permeated our history and our psyche from day one.
We should not just regard ourelves at the world’s quarry, or the world’s farm or, worse, the world’s pet, faithfully following our masters wherever they go, or don’t go.
As to Howard’s speech: He is in every sense of the phrase, yesterday’s man, completely irrelevant. The electorate unambiguously moved on from him and his style of governance about 2 years ago, and ain’t listening no more. If the conservatives think they are going to get an electoral boost by trotting him out, hanging off his every word, and singing his praises as an ‘elder statesman’, they are very seriously mistaken. All his re-appearance on the political scene does is remind people of why they voted for Labor. I hope the opposition give him every possible opportunity to speak in public, it will not hurt Labor.
BB certainly one way of reading the flip flopping of Nelson over the past couple of days (followed by a train of Shadow Ministers trying to tell us what he really meant) is do nothing until the US and other countries give us permission to do so.
109 Bushfire Bill.
HEAR HEAR!!!!
I think it would be nice if the Opposition and the Murdoch press stopped talking down Australia too.
http://liberal.org.au/info/news/detail/20080409_Consumerconfidence.php
…and if Rudd talked Australia up.
We have a potentially wonderful future. This needs to be set out as a goal, not as the product of raw good luck or something that is always in danger from numerous threats conjured up by itinerant nitpickers.
BB. I agree that Rudd could do more on selling the broader vision, I just do not think it is a pressing issue yet. It will start becoming so in 12 months or so (after the due diligence phase is over) if he does not attend to it.
The mere fact that he is doing something serious about climate change, is itself a major step forward, one he has been very public about. Don’t forget there is still one more report to come from Garnaut, and it is the one with the economic details, so the government can’t really move too far on this policy just yet. Plus, I will bet that the international community is about to start moving seriously on climate change, so the government is not going to be ‘recklessly leading’, as the opposition charge, but will be comfortably positioned by the time the next election comes around. The opposition will not be.
Just posted this on Bolt’s blog. dickheads there got up my nose
Probably won’t appear:
Proud Aussie
I don’t know anyone that wants Howard back, not even Fiberal voters. And the latest Newspoll was 55:45 to Labor, landslide election territory.
Look, if you want the Fibs to regain government don’t just expect a small swing is all that is needed.
Whatever the margin at the last election, there are a whole new set of Labor MPs. These will be working hard in their electorates, building up a personal vote of 1-1.5%
Secondly, Labor is now the incumbent, with all that that implies, pork barreling to put it crudely but many other advantages too, e.g. government advertising. What is that worth, say 1-1.5%? probably more.
So, the swing the Fibs need is the margin at the last election plus 2-3% extra–quite an ask. Then there are demographic changes, accelerated by reversing the rorting of the Electoral Act under Howard as young voters enrol and the oldest voters, the most staunch Coalition demographic, start dying off. Also, the redistributions will likely make the job even harder for the Coalition in most states.
The Nats will continue to bleed as their children head for the cities and are replaced by those looking for a seachange.
All in all, the Coalition will need to work miracles not to go backwards at the next election, let alone try to win government.
Do not expect the ETS to win government for you. Labor expected the GST to do the job and it didn’t. The EST will be introduced very carefully after much modeling at Treasury, consultation on the Green Paper and the government will (have to) advertise the EST and how it advantages most people.
Cheap comments won’t work, lots of hard work will be needed for the Coalition to regain government, cheap populism like opposing the ETS will not do it.
Re greenhouse gases, even the G8 is starting to take this seriously.
brenda has right royally wedged herself
BB – you are right in that some of us are longing to hear more about the positives ahead. I want to hear of the opportunities and not so much of the doom and gloom. But I will give Rudd credit for making CC a difference now between Labor and the so so sorry looking Libs.
We can’t all be inspirational in manner and the tough survival instincts he had to have as a kid have probably not helped in this regard. But as a highly intelligent individual he knows what is needed. Hopefully Rudd will find the right person to sell this.
No-one can say Howard was inspirational – and this morning’s diatribe on ABC was positively sickening.
I’m with you when you say that Labor needs to keep reminding the Opposition that they lost the election but if Rudd is the one continually doing it he will get a hammering in the MSM. So he needs an attack dog. Does Labor have a Heffernan to do the job as Howard did. Would that help?
Loved your ideas re the West and Broken Hill opportunities. Great possibilities there.
Good luck Harry – it is a cruel time for all.
Condolences to you and your family, Harry.
Follow the Preferences, was making a point on the previous thread that I couldn’t quite grasp, but I think I have it and it makes sense.
The whole trading scheme is a long term and difficult problem that needs to survive whatever government happens to have its bum on the seats. Therefore, the Ruddster goes to the LIBS and says, We need a bi-partisan approach. They are having trouble in finding their policy direction at the moment, They are therefore incapable of any definitive stance. The ALP do all the work, get the scheme to a point that its ready to go then put the political pressure on the LIBS.
The point about the Family First Senator is crucial, He will not support the tax on Fuel. Therefore they are not going to get it through the Senate. IE, look for a way to sheet home the blame on the Libs until after the next election. Reverse wedge the cons and everyont will blame the libs, whilst not suffering any economic pain.
The only worry is that the whole issue has to be sold as a ‘War’ footing issue.
When we get a media that isn’t beholden to the Liberal Party and special interests, things will improve in this country.
Brenda and the fibs are palying games with an ETS. Yes they support it – but Labor can’t be trusted to get it right.
Brenda has to muddy the waters a little to appeal to those who do not want an ETS. So he has the China and India get out of jail free card up his sleeve.
This is classic Rat Man politics – pretend to do something or to oppose something while doing the complete opposite (ie immigration).
If Brenda succeeds he may get to lose the next election – if he fails some other Fiberal will have that dubious honour.
Just visitied the Andrew Bolt Blog site. Was tempted to start chanelling dear old BOB again, however I doubt the collective intellect would have got it. OMG.
It all makes sense now, that is the policy machine of the Libs.
Which Bob, Bob? Your Bob or the Liberal Bob? I reckon your Bob ended up voting Liberal, while the Liberal Bob ended up voting DLP.
Chris,
Its a very good thought, maybe you could have a crack at Bob M. I remember watching Bob S on tele, he was like a darlek. Oh I can feel the calling.
“The leftist governments and their supporters in the socialist press are now in full control, until the stalinist in the Union movement are exposed by the right thinking christians, there will continue to be a further collapse in our society. The moral decaying brought on by the anti-capitalist running dogs with their eastern block financiers etc etc,
I’ll have a quick squiz on the net and see if there are any of Bobs pearls around.
Bob Santamaria @ #152:
Trench warfare again, Bob. Too bloody, too costly.
Rudd should rise above the fray and drop a few bombs on them from on high. The argey-bargey might be fun, but it’s fighting yesterday’s war today.
We need the terms of debate to be set up anew. New thinking, new hopes and horizons.
There is no reason whatsoever that Rudd Labor cannot grab this debate permanently by simply showing how the seeming disadvantage of Global Warming can be turned into a triumph for Australia… and carry the voting public, their kids and their grandkids, along with them.
That’s what the Mob are looking for: positive waves, not negativity and defensiveness. They don’t want a gouging shit-fight. They want something to look forward to.
The first person who provides optimism and new horizons out of Global Warming (or if not Global Warming, just cleaning up the bloody planet for its own sake) will be in power fo a decade, and rightly so.
Bushfire,
I would hope that your right, the fear is that the LIbs and the Media at the moment are so far removed from doing other than what is in their benefits that it may be sensible to keep options open. The debate is gaining clarity by the moment and in the future these people are going to look seriously silly, (Andrew Bolt).
However, the lesson that everyone has learn’t in the last decade is that opposition is an ugly experience. Those who are calling for Labor to lemming like run policy should be reminded that any party can only do what Mr and Mrs 51% allow.
The google search showed various others quoting Bob S, including a rather glowing speech by one Steven Fielding? The man the ALP gave preferences to in VIctoria.
Even from the (political) grave, Howard can still turn tricks.
Said he wouldn’t behave like Keating and would absent himself from the political discourse of the day.
Looks like another non-core to me.
Bryce
methinks the man of steal is positioning himself for a comeback-im sure hyacinth would love that
Bob S,
You must not forget that the real Bob S was anti-capitalist before he was anti-communist and returned to anti-capitalism in his later years when he established a friendship with Clyde Cameron. Bob M was never anti-capitalist, but he did despair of the party he created.
I think its funny that people who agreed with Keating say he was a visionary who was a head of the electorate, implying thats why he was disposed of.
“Ahead of the electorate” implies he was somewhere where the electorate wanted to go in the future. People got rid of Keating because they didn’t like his ideas, they didn’t like his personality, and they blamed him for the recession.
Fact is, he didn’t have the ability to bring the electorate with him. I suspect the primary reason for that was people didn’t really like him. Hard to get people to come with you on your journey if they don’t want to get in your car because they hate you.
We had the Hawke-Keating Govt. followed by the Howard-Costello Govt.
Now we have the Rudd Govt.
Hawke took the credit for his treasurers work, Howard pissed his treasurer to the wind.
Now, for better or worse, we have a PM who does not play the good news-bad news fall guy game. In my view refreshing.
Charles 107
“While the Rudd Government has stated its “ambition” is a trading scheme by 2010, the Coalition has argued that is unworkable and that 2012 should be the preferred starting date.”
FORMER Howard Government minister Tony Abbott will write a book about the future of conservative politics.
“I am looking forward to the opportunity to chronicle my position on the big issues,” the former federal health minister, said today.
“Mr Abbott has been one of the Liberal Party’s toughest advocates and readers can be sure that he will not shirk the big questions,” MUP chief executive Louise Adler said.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23994479-12377,00.html
Is this the Mad Monk’s pitch to be leader of the Fibs?
167
Sorry – accidently pressed “submit” button.
Extract from Samantha Maiden’s report in Australian (Charles’ link)
Even in this the reporter cannot get it right. Penny Wong used the word “ambition” and one other minister(cannot think of name) used another word similar in meaning in the context. But Kevin Rudd corrected it and said 2010 was definite. Surely the PM’s word takes precedence?
I just knew Minchim was behind Nelson’s change of heart. He seems to have a lot of say. Robb was also behind it.(Maiden’s story in Aust) Nelson is not his own man – he is a captive to the far Right.
.
Stephen Lloyd
My Mother in law voted against him because he kept his mouth open when he’d finished speaking… go figure!
Hawke lost ten seats in Victoria in 1990 I believe, how many will Rudd drop in NSW in 2009/2010?
One and pick up another three.
Sportingbet
Who Will Be NSW Premier on January 1 2009?
Nathan Rees 1.80
Morris Iemma 2.25
John Watkins 3.00
Any Other 7.00
Carmel Tebbutt 13.00
David Campbell 15.00
Frank Sartor 17.00
Verity Firth 26.00
Rees favourite? Wow that’s interesting…
Steve and Bushfire Bill
he link you need to understand Rudds strategy, and remember the finish line is the day we vote for his next term.
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0275.html#aesop
169 Edward – keep dreaming Edward.
Jovial Monk
If the Liberals have any future it will not be found in the group that visit Bolts blog.
Keating did immense good for Aust because of his reforming of so many areas. He was a big picture man in an extravertive sense and hence everybody knew it. But he was not detail enough conscious and did not see the suffering of the everyday Aust. In addition he had a poor “bedside manner” and people did not think he was empathising with them. He used the vision thing to try to make people think that the suffering was all well worthwhile. He could be inspiring(Redfern speech) but he also alienated people and left the emotional condidion of the electorate in such a way that the opportunist Howard could capitalise on it. Keating could not take the electorate with him and duly lost the 1996 election. Howard “dined off” the benefits of the Keating era for 12 years and managed to discredit Keating’s economic credentials at the same time. Keating was a “big picture” man and did immense good for Australia but “led with his chin” and did not see some important strategic details eg he underestimated Howard and the electorate’s general view of him.
Rudd is also a “big picture” man but in an introvertive way. It is therefore not obvious to people as Keating’s was. But it is still there. Unlike Keating Rudd is seeing the important strategic details I am sure he is mindful of what happened to Keating’s reign. His victory over Howard last year shows the strategic nature of his mind. He was always a few steps ahead. Howard conversely was always formidable over a very short period, but had no strategic vision. He was always a short term opportunist.
Rudd is doing exactly what he said at the last election and is keeping his promises in a timely manner. He always said he would await the Garnaut report on CC before he would do anything about CC. And he is doing it right on cue. What more can we ask of him?
However I agree that there could be a lot more inspiration(like Obama) and something to actually MOVE people in their feelings. And I think that is what is missing. Rudd is capable of it as in the example of his apology to the Indigenous people earlier this year.
A couple of “big picture” speeches would be a start. Maybe he has them in mind. He has to replace the MSM’s base appeal to people’s feelings by appealing at a level higher than the small populist minds of the MSM can reach. And then he will cause the MSM and Opposition to be irrelevant in this matter and he will then defeat them.
charles 173
Exactly.
Doug 176
Well said.
GB,
Do you actually live in NSW?
NSW is heading for a Kirner style meltdown! Its that bad.
Hollowmen is on!
Perhaps this is essential viewing.
Kevin Rudd like all politicians talks and does nothing that is not aimed at the next election win. His problem is he has really misunderstood the electorate anger at John Howard. The anger was there about global warming and workchoices but they are mutually exclusive. He made the non-committal commitment on both of these issues but they are contradictory on hip pocket politics. He is now facing the contradiction in reality.
He actually never had policies on either of these areas now we will see how clever he really is.
ESJ,
Victorian budgets were in deficit. Unemployment was way up (as in the rest of the nation. Pyramid had collapsed. The State Bank was suffering and sold to the Commonwealth on the way to privatisation. Is NSW really that bad?
Edward
They should be ( and to fair on Kirner she was left holding the baby, Cain made the mess). But I actually think Labor will win the next election in NSW, the Liberal party is in the throws of self destruction. True the NSW branch is not leading the pack but it is coming a close third.
I really feel sorry for NSW, they have no Jeff;and that is what they need at the moment.
The anger was there about global warming and workchoices but they are mutually exclusive.
How?
Doug
And the thing to remember about Rudd is he has already seen a government fall because it didn’t take the electorate with him. He knows it is all for nothing if he doesn’t win the next election.
Chris C,
I would say NSW is suffering from the same disease but different effects are manifesting to VIC 92.
In Sydney today the headline was about the State Treasurer attacking the ALP Head Office. That is just such an extraordinary headline.
Really it is true the Libs could blow it but it is one of those situations where you just really have to do very little and watch the destruction.
Yeah, cos Howard had SOOOOO many policies when he gained government. Honestly, it amazes me how everyone carries on as though Rudd should have solved every problem already, as if there was a magic button or something that you get to push as soon as you get into the PM’s office. Some serious reality checks needed people.
From Wires
Glenn Milne releases home video
2AM, After Piss-up Friday at Brendon’s place
Charles
“I actually think Labor will win the next election in NSW”
If so it will be an indictment on the people of NSW.
How can a government just so corrupt be elected again?
This is not a call for a Liberal replacement it is a call to reclaim the power of the people.
The only way Labor could possibly win again is if there is a new clean leader and new candidates in over 60% of the electorates.
Or is it lets beat ourselves up?
ESJ,
I guess we will see. I hope you saw my US prediction on the US thread – the one you asked me to give several months ago.
The politics of climate change denial. Like it or not we are going to see more of this for the next two years.
http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/monckton%20schulte%20oreskes%207%200%20(2).pdf
To Just Me
Think about it!
colin
You have to have an alternative. My theory is it all goes back to the rum Rebellion. You still haven’t managed to clean up the elite.
Nah, Colin, I’m an idiot, I need it explained to me.
I did Chris, mmmm I’ll wait for the conventions but clearly BHO is in front.
Dario
Your allegiances are in the way of your comments or possibly thinking. There is no competition with Howard, he is in our history, we have a future that needs to be lead well. This is not a Labor/Coalition issue this is an issue beyond politics in the traditional sense. If we as electors dont recognise the truly important issues and force our politicians to do more than waffle our children will be living in a world incomprehensible to us.
Wake up there are no flowers to smell for Rudd, Wong et al. They need to be the best they can be and we need to expect them to be better again. Irrespective of their political allegiances.
Just Me
Read some recent headlines on petrol then think!
Charles
Satire can hide lots of truths
Oh dear, the fit is hitting the shan for the Libs on ETS. Turnbull is being grilled by Leigh Sales on “Lateline”. Clearly Brendan has stuffed up.
It seems to me that much of the discussion about the relative merits of Messrs Rudd and Keating in earlier posts turns on one basic difference between the two: Mr Rudd does not seem to go out of his way to create new enemies. In fact, I can’t think of a single occasion when he has gratuitously sought to offend someone, or to rub someone’s nose in it.
Mr Keating, famously, took the opposite approach. Some posters here clearly used to find that exhilarating, and miss it. My personal view is that Mr Keating’s behaviour was self-indulgence of the first order, and that he, more than anyone else, tilled the soil for Hansonism and Howardism. Those of you who yearn for the good old days of Mr Keating ought to spare a thought for the less well off people whose interests he was supposed to be representing, who copped it in the neck under the regime which followed.
There’s more to political leadership than just being noisy and exuberant – breaking the mold of polarised politics is not a bad way to start.
Oh by the way for those of you in NSW dont forget you do not have freedom of speech during WYD that appears to actually be a week. Good luck all!
194 colin, I don’t think it has anything to do with allegiences. Why is there a constant humming about ‘no substance’ with a government that has only been in power for 7 months? I drew comparisons back to Howard to illustrate that governments don’t suddenly jump into office and change everything in 5 minutes flat. It just doesn’t work that way. I would love to see a list of the previous 3 or 4 governments ‘achievements’ in their first half-year in office. It wouldn’t be a very long list.
173 Charles interesting concept but leadership is a complex area where Rudd could afford to polish up from time to time.
http://www.leadership501.com/
Gotta say, “The Hollowmen” was a real let down. Characters were weak and hard to believe. Plot was superficial and lacked any kind of wit or insight. About as subtle and sophisticated as a fart in the bath.
Felt like Rob Sitch was reprising his role as Mike Moore in Frontline. Really hope it gets better, but I won’t hold my breath. I read a piece about it in the paper which made reference to “Yes Minister” as being part of the inspiration – not even close.
Dario
I dont say this as a Liberal supporter nor a Howard fan but he does have form with they gun buyback scheme.
But you are I think still too precious. Surely you come to government with an agenda. I am getting increasingly worried Rudd has no real idea about how to deal with the issues that confront us. Particularly environmental issues including the Murray, and global warming.
Eventually you have to do something he is not. There is too much hot air for my liking.
Dario
I dont say this as a Liberal supporter nor a Howard fan but he does have form with the gun buyback scheme.
But you are I think still too precious. Surely you come to government with an agenda. I am getting increasingly worried Rudd has no real idea about how to deal with the issues that confront us. Particularly environmental issues including the Murray, and global warming.
Eventually you have to do something he is not. There is too much hot air for my liking.
Colin you made much more sense the second time. I think Rudd has a good understanding of both Global Warming and the Murray but neither are going to be solved overnight. Give him time and see how he goes.
At least he attempts to keep his election promises, something the Howeird Government never even tried to do.
Agree completely, Optimist. Very disappointing. All I could think was Mike Moore all over again too. ‘Yes, Minister’ it definitely ain’t.
However, those guys do have a very solid track record, so I’ll cut them some slack for a while and see how it pans out over the next few episodes.
Exactly as steve said, those two issues you just mentioned are long term fixes, not overnight dance in the media spotlight events. You worry that he has no idea how to deal with them? He’s doing a darn sight better than Howard did in 12 years. The Murray-Darling deal signed with the States, and the draft Garnaut report delivered with an ETS to be set up in a few years? What more is he supposed to have done exactly?
Just Me,
me too – hope it gets better. Hard to see how it will though – the dynamics just aren’t right. I realise that they wouldn’t wanna redo Frontline, but they would have benefitted from sticking to a similar dynamic, character-wise.
In Frontline, we had the near-perfect interaction of the ultra-cynical Prowsey and the idealistic Emma, serving to illustrate how dreadfully manipulative, cheap and patronising the world of current affairs really is – in The Hollowmen, it feels like we have none of that. The characters are unbelievably inept, short-sighted and plain dumb.
I was expecting to see a sharp depiction of just how calculating and cynical the inner world of politics and policy development really is – I think they tried to say too much and ended up saying very little if anything at all.
As I said, about as subtle and sophisticated as a fart in the bath.
They would have done better to study a show like Absolute Power.
Larvatus Prodeo has a Mayo thread.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/10/no-mayo-with-that-please-it-doesnt-go-with-my-latte/
They would have done better to study a show like Absolute Power.
Now there is a great take on power, politics and perception.
Oh Dear, the poor old Pineapple Party seems to have hit a rocky out-crop and a Queensland Liberal Party State Council meeting has been called for tonight by Brough. They seem to have ‘overwhelming support’ except for the National Party letter writers.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/brough-calls-urgent-merger-meeting/2008/07/09/1215282920562.html
The cheersquad of the Pineapple party don’t seem quite so cocky in their comments as they were last week for some reason. Amazing what a bit of time and reality can do to Queensland Coalition supporters.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,20797,23995173-3102,00.html?from=public_rss
This by Peter Alford and Dennis Shanahan | July 10, 2008 in the OO -
“Mr Rudd’s chief adviser on climate change, Ross Garnaut, last week cautioned Australia not to get too far ahead of the rest of the world in its response to global warming.
The Garnaut report, which backed Mr Rudd’s plan to introduce a costly emissions trading scheme by 2010, warned that Australia could seriously harm its economy by acting alone.”
I’ve watched Garnaut at the National Press Club at seen him interviewd elsewhere and I must say I didn’t get this impression. Did anyone else?
No, Garnaut definitely never said that. In fact he repeatedly said that we were already way behind Europe, so acting now would not make us leaders, but in fact middle of the pack. Shanners lying yet again.
Latest Labor force figures are out today with an increase in employment.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0?OpenDocument
Move over Fuelwatch now private business is getting in on the act.
http://economics.com.au/?p=1628
There is one regular (Steve) who continues to provide blow by blow updates on the “Pineapple Party” (aka non-Labor in Queensland). Other than (maybe)some ‘feel good’ loathing of the other mob, what is the point and anyway who cares? Labor in Queensland are ascendant at the moment with non-Labor likely to remain in Opposition beyond the next election.
217 David there are also Federal issues tied up with this merger. The whole process has been approved by the conservative parties at a Federal level. An intention has been expressed to take the process to a National level if it is successful in Queensland.
The new party would be a Division of the Liberal Party and affiliate of the National Party. This allows Queensland members of Federal Parliament to sit in on each others party room meetings as a right. It is important to follow what is happening with this organisational reshuffle as it has huge implications for the future either way.
214
Anyone who thinks we might get caught leading the pack is an ostrich.
You seriously couldn’t be in Europe for more than a few hours before you’d see the difference.
We’ve got at least a decade of catch-up to do already, and that’s without the scientists and entrepreneurs who’ve been leaving our shores for greener pastures for that length of time.
We’re becoming more and more insular like America every day when that sort of crap from sham-a-ham even sees the light of day. Hell, you don’t even have to go to Europe – there have been plenty of television programs on the subject in recent years.
Bloody ostriches!
onimod, I holidayed in Europe only a few months ago and you are dead right. It is embarassing the way we and the US are so far behind on this issue.
Anybody who thinks we are in danger of ‘leading the pack’, only needs to check out the European vehicle emissions and fuel efficiency standards. They are way ahead of us, and have been for some time.
One of the real benefits of the emerging technologies around energy is that they are site specific. Ie, jobs and infrastructure must be located in areas here. What is wrong with these people that they are against us having benefits around jobs and new infrastructure?
I agree with others that Hollowmen wasn’t much chop. The plot was really predictable, and there was little character development. Like others, I will keep watching to see if it improves, as I do enjoy the backroom machinations of politics.
Frontline was more cutting and funnier. You can only say “key stakeholders” so many times…
Re Hollowmen
Yes, not that good, but I usually find Ep 1 of anything not much chop.
Hope it improves
Here’s something to brighten the day of us Boothby voters.
Boothby goal for Labor’s future star Mia Handshin
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23996980-2682,00.html
@214 et al,
Different places, different needs and different solutions.
In respect to Australia’s needs and it’s capacity to address them, we are indeed decades behind ourselves.
Research into renewable energy was well advanced in the 1980s, but funds were either suspended or reduced to levels that were risibly inadequate, precisely at the point in time where a momentum was gathering that would have put Australia in the van.
It’s all a matter of popular and political will.
The status quo is not, never has been and never will be a viable option.
Has anyone seen the brilliant British series The Thick of It? It seems to me that that rather than Yes Minister is the model for The Hollowmen – bearing in mind that I forgot to watch it and don’t actually know what I’m talking about. Unfortunately, the stoopid ABC have never seen fit to show The Thick of It. Get it on DVD – it’s every bit as funny as Yes Minister, and immensely more biting and cynical.
William,
You can watch last night’s episode on the Hollowmen website.
Btw, good review you wrote on the reissue of the Dennis Wilson CD in Today’s West
Oh dear – I was hoping that my association with that most disreputable publication might continue to pass unnoticed (just kidding Paul Armstrong, love your work really …).
heh!
Music critic and psephologist.
How very “renaissance man” of you Billbowe
I’ve seen a couple of episodes of The Thick Of It, which is indeed brilliant (as is anything by Armando Iannucci), and is also a better model and comparison.
Pity Chris Langham had to leave the show (and everything else he was doing, including the wonderful ‘Help’, with Paul Whitehouse).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_%28British_TV_series%29
I suppose you also got a couple of Olympic golds stashed away in the socks drawer, William?
Those marathon medals were tough for him Just Me, what, between his Oscar winning screenplay and his cure for cancer
He he
225
Diogenes Says:
That is good news for us Boothby-ites sick of the least impressive and energetic present MP!!!
Just on a different point, there is a serious split developing in the Liberals on climate change with Turnbull flatly contradicting his leader on Lateline and Abbott now adding fuel to the fire from the other side.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23998730-601,00.html
How come the MSM (except The Australian it seems) are not picking this up?
William Bowe @ 227 – The Hollowmen is being repeated on ABC2 at 9PM
PS
By complete coincidence, I just finished reading your post on that issue on your site, (which I only discovered recently, and am greatly appreciating your clear analyses and commentary).
I agree, the move is on from the Turnbull camp, on top of everything else wrong with Nelson, the opportunity for Turnbull has crystallised over the climate change issue, and Nelson will not be leader for too much longer, certainly gone before Xmas.
236 TPS, I think there is just too much confusion from too many Shadow Ministers for anyone to follow it. It comes from having no clear policy, leaving individuals to make up their own policy as they are being interviewed. Nelson himself has had multiple positions on the subject since Friday.
236 The Piping Shrike- you just beat me to the punch. Why, in the middle of an article to do with Abbott and the Libs, would you put this?
“As the rift between the shadow cabinet and Dr Nelson widened, the Rudd Government also came under fire today over the impact of an emissions trading scheme.
The Australian Workers Union is also stepping up a campaign to offer free permits to trade-exposed, emissions-intensive industries including steel and aluminium, warning jobs could be lost offshore.”
Then it goes on talking about Abbott and the Libs again.
They are enjoying their Rudd bashing crusades far too much to pick it up
The Piping Shrike @ 236 – Abbott was asked if he accepted global warming was real in an ABC midday news interview. He dodged the question by saying, after a longish pause, that he thought reducing pollution was a good thing. Which sounded like a definite ‘No’ to me.
240
because far too may journalists have given their phone numbers to conservative politicians and party heavyweights.
You’ve got to have something in your pocket when they call:
“…but I gave Kev a serve too…please…no…okay”
It’s fine by me – every parent knows that once you’re kid has gone to ruin through a lack of principle and discipline there’s bugger all you can do to repair the damage. Boot camp might work, but better to start again.
Johnny and co. left a petulant little brat behind who never learnt to read the fable of the boy who cried wolf.
Are these Libs glass jawed or am I missing something. They run around the place slagging any one who doesn’t agree with them, calling people , the lunatic fringe, dangerous radical, fairies at the bottom of the garden etc, then people call them ‘deniers’ and they go off like hong kong sky rockets?
Dario (241), I would say the MSM’s ignorance of this is the usual pro-Lib bias but it seems that The Australian is picking this up more than the Fairfax press.
GB (240) there are ructions on the Labor side but the Lib one is more serious because they cannot afford to be on the wrong side of the climate change agenda for long but they have to distinguish themselves somehow.
Also if Turnbull had gone along with the leadership’s line, like he did on petrol excise, he would have been finished politically. He has to make a stand now.
Game on!
As acting PM Julia should be getting out there and highlighting the gaping holes in the coalition on ETS. The MSM will report what a PM or Acting PM says.
I don’t think they would want to make a big deal of it and discourage this too much at this stage.
Why would Turnbull want the gig now. If Kevin Rudd has shown us anything its that people in public life need to take a Bex and lay down occasionally. This permanent election mode its just rubbish. The next election is nearly 2 and a half years away. Turnbull may well wait until after the next election. Huffing and pufing all over the place is just boring. If Rudd had settled down a fraction and looked at the term as a 6 piece play rather than running around like a headless chook he would have had a better 2nd act.
Having said that, the ‘narrowing’ of recent had to happen , some of the numbers that he and the ALP were running were just unsustainable.
BS (248) I don’t think that Turnbull necessarily wanted to make a pitch now but he was forced by Nelson’s back-tracking to do something. If he hadn’t he would have become a joke. He knows what happened to Costello.
There comes a time when it is more damaging to go along than to make a stand. Nelson’s U-turn on climate change and the ETS has made that time now for Turnbull.
very good, Piping Shrike.
Really a conditional response(as an excuse) is out of date by up to a decade. There is no vision in the Libs otherwise they would be able to at least see up to November, and see that even in the short term their position is untenable. Minchim, Abbot, Robb -you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. This will only get worse for them unless Turnball gets the numbers to change it and throw out the fossilised old guard.
Rupert has supposedly turned green. Should not this help the CC cause in Australia? Perhaps we may even see the third rate “journalism” of the MSM turn their guns on the Libs instead of Rudd for a while? Or am I only dreaming?
#225: It’s a pity Mia Handshin wasn’t the candidate for Boothby on November 24, I dare say she would have performed better than Nicole Cornes.
The Fairfax papers in Sydney are more concerned with bashing the Iemma Goverment currently, Rudd/Nelson aren’t really on the radar this week for them.
Now why would “people skills” say on the record that there is a “split” over the ETS in the Fibs?
What does he gain from doing it? Is he trying to put Nelson back in his box or is he about to mount a Conservative coup.
Interesting times, if Abbott and probably Nick Minchin suceed, they will move the party to the level of a Bolta blog.
If Turnbull prevails they will snipe at him from the sidelines.
What fun – it is just too delicious for words.
Brenda wouldn’t know if a bus was up him until the people started getting off
The the hand up the backside of the glove puppet we know as “people skills” has done it again – he’s backing Cardinal Pell for all it’s worth:
“Mr Abbott, one of Australia’s most prominant Catholics and a friend of the Cardinal, said his mate acted “honourably” amid claims that he misled victims of abuse at the hands of former priest Father Terrence Goodall. ”
I guess it depends on what you understand by the word ‘honour’ eh?
Being a conservative isn’t as easy as it used to be…
Even the news.com.au readers are getting stuck in to him over this one.
(by the way – the spelling mistake is theirs and not mine for once).
253:: lol !
Todays unemployment figures revised the number for Feb. to 3.9% so a Labor Govt. has delivered the lowest unemployment rate since 1974.
Ruawake – I never thought the Libs were the primary cause of our good fortune and I don’t give credit to Labor either. I would like to say congrats to Glen Stevens and the RBA for striking the right balance with monetary policy.
What we can take out of this is that the sky did not fall in when Labor assumed the reigns of government as some on the right believed. However the problems in the US and the overinflated house prices here and elsewhere are a real worry.
ruawake @ 256 – So why aren’t the mugs of half the government front bench all over the TV news crowing about it? Especially Gillard’s as both the acting PM and responsible minister!
NELSON: “Mr. Rudd can’t squirm out of this one. He’s been in government for seven long months now and, after the Budget, took ownership of the economy, lock, stock and barr….”
LIBERAL MINDER: “Pssst!… Dr. Nelson!”
NELSON: … lock, stock and barrel. These employment figures… by the way, what are the figures?
LIBERAL MINDER: Doesn’t matter, mate. You’re doin’ a great job.
Mayne MayoFeral going on TV and telling everyone that they have never had it so good is not a good idea. Especially when the RBA is actively trying to slow the economy by raising interest rates.
BB
Exactly – I did hang out a bit of bait. But if Labor has to take responsibility for the economy – surely the lowest unemployment rate for 34 years is theirs to claim?
Brenda can’t have it both ways.
RU, I just wish it was Labor pointing this out, not me on a blog.
My take for what its worth is that the Libs are actually using ETS to screw over Turnbull. Nelson’s dead in the water and the subject is who replaces him and when . Latest polls show that the majority of Libs want Costello. Given that he is staying, (which seems more likely as each day passes), then his sitting on the bank bench is clearly a waste of talent and something that will not last.
Turnbull will not carry the day because he simply does not have the support of the heavy hitters like Minchin and Abbott. All his ascensicon will do will perpetuate the divisions that currently exist.
Logic says Costello comes in, probably with Abbott as deputy. Timing, probably before the next sitting of Parliament.
“Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.”
http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html
It was not coincidence the Rudd was given a copy of Sun Tzu’s the Art of War. It explains many of his actions.
My sister just rang me in a state of high dudgeon over Uhlmann’s piece to camera on ABC News tonight.
The subject was the unemployment figures.
Clearly expecting the numbers to have worsened, Uhlmann nevertheless had to change his script on the fly, but kept the punchline anyway:
“No-one in the government will tell you this, but the Budget was supposed to increase unemployment.”
So, the lowest unemployment in 34 years and Uhlmann has to find a negative way of putting it. My sister say he offered no evidence for his assertion that Labor wanted unemployment to rise. He just blurted it out…. in a story about how unemployment fell!.
My sister was surprised he didn’t add,
“Therefore the Rudd government has failed in its employment objectives and has demonstrated once again that it cannot manage the economy.”
Thankfully, we were spared that.
Uhlmann delenda est.
GG (263) I agree, I think a lot of the ETS positioning by Abbott is to put the squeeze on Turnbull. It shows how internally they are operating at the moment. Electoral impact is secondary.
I wouldn’t worry about Uhlmann (265), since his blow-out on Sunday he is finished.
But its peace in our time in the New South Wales ALP.
Yes but the NSW ALP will get resolved, the federal Liberal problem won’t.
Q&A on ABC tonight is featuring Sen. Christine Milne and little andy bolt talkin climate change. Should be fun.
TPS by jettisoning the union movement in NSW? Can’t see it.
ESJ haven’t you notice that that has happened in every other state and federal Labor government?
TPS, excuse my ignorance but how do you define “jettisoning”?
ESJ I mean removing their influence from government (keeping their money of course). That’s what Iemma is trying to do with electricity privatisation. I don’t think he cares whether it is privatised or not. It is just a way of breaking with the unions in NSW, something the federal Labor leadership has been itching to do for ages.
Let’s be careful what we wish for. I’m happy for Brenda to keep leading the Fibs all the way.
We should save our energies for when Cossie takes over. Tip is going to be given the – MOTHER of all honeymoons by the MSM.
Remove their influence from government? The unions have 50% of the votes in the State ALP conference, they can remove the State ALP Head Office leadership, 50% of their membership works in the public service.
To me it seems like removing the liver from the body, ie you die.
Well the old ALP does die as it has elsewhere. There are voting numbers and there is political influence. Even you would have to admit that the unions have minimal influence on the current federal Labor government.
TPS,
So is Labor going to become the party of business?
TPS,
One element I question in your analysis:
If you assume union leaders are content to leave government to the grown ups ie the parliamentary party (which I grant in many cases is true), what happens when government (or the party) in its actions undercuts the financial base of unions (ie membership which increasingly lies in the public sector)?
Presumably the compliant union leaders who have been removed from the political process will not meekly accept having their own sinecures removed from under them through wholescale decimation of their membership base (ie income stream)?
In other words does a turkey vote for Christmas?
No, technocrats.
Yes, but where’s the money going to come from?
Also, if the Libs become (more) irrelevant, as some have postulated, how are the technocrats (or anyone else for that matter) going to stop business with its monay taking over the ALP?
Or is the theory that business will keep supporting a losing Liberal Party indefinitely?
Or is that the Libs will start coming back?
ESJ (278) that’s pretty well exactly what happened in the Keating years. As Gillard reassured at the Sydney Institute last year, union membership fell at a quicker rate during the Keating years than under Howard. The union leadership had no choice but to agree to what Keating did. You are talking about it as though it will happen but it already has (although NSW is just catching up).
That’s why the union leaders are all drifting to join the parliamentary ALP. Howard called it a sign of rising union influence in the ALP, actually it was the reverse.
The money thing might be a problem (281). But the unions will still be contributing I can’t see what choice they have. On particular business having influence I think Rudd will make it harder than say it was under Hawke.
(281) When business has no need for anti-union legislation, it has no need for the Liberal party.
Fair point TPS,
The logical end-point would be that the ALP will swallow electricity privatisation. It doesnt seem to be playing out that way? The scenario seems to be Iemma gets rolled and the new guy comes up with some form of compromise.
I see it more that Combet and the others were the last ones across the bridge into parliament and those who remain in the unions are angry that their time served wont end up in parliament so are angry and resentful of the Labor government.
I know this is not strictly the right thread for this but there is a big rumour going around political circles in Adelaide that Mike Rann will step down next year when the Budget is delivered and only work on Federal Labor. He is being heavily criticised in SA at the moment for having his eye off the ball due to being overstretched with his Federal commitments.
All the other long-lasting Labor Premiers have left on their own terms. He’s the only one left.
Diogenes returned from the wasteland I see?
ESJ
Au contraire! I’ve just started reading a book on “The Waste Land”. I decided to return and set my lands in order.
Shantih shantih shantih
Ever go to Canberra Diogenes? I recommend the Paper Chain in Manuka, top notch for books.
I’m also reading “The Upside of Down” at the moment. It argues that large countries are becoming like the last days of the Roman Empire, which fell apart because it’s bureaucracy could not control it any more.
The main failings of our countries, including Australia, can be put down to an increasingly unmanageable bureaucracy. The old-fashioned political models ran well for smaller populations with less complicated needs but is unable to react quickly enough to the more rapid and diverse “stresses” of the 21st Century, be they economic, environmental, climatic, energy-related or population-based.
Strange that MSM is still throwing pop corn at Rudd and co when the entertainment in the Liberal ring is getting hot.
Abbott and Minchin may have the numbers but they don’t represent electable positions. Turnbull and a few others actually have enough brains to work that out. Costello is yesterdays man and he knows it.
If you find party politics fun, pull up a chair, break out the pop corn, it’s going to be fun.
Which of course was when another Labor government was in power.
Record low unemployment is never good – often a harbinger of recession.
293 Edward StJohn – Howard aimed for recession then. He wanted unemployment to have a 3 in front of it.
Take this with as little or as much salt as you wish. Custardello is renowned for hesitancy, undecidedness …
Sydney Morning Herald, 2 July 2008
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/liberals-brawl-for-safe-seat-as-downer-leaves/2008/07/01/1214678038251.html
Oh yes Eddie, the more people out of work the better.
TPS @ 283,
You’ve answered the second and third parts of my 281 – actually I already knew your views on business’s future relationship with the Liberal Party.
What about the first part of my 281 – don’t you think business will take over the ALP, assuming the Libs (and the unions) become irrelevant? Or do you think business will just trust the technocrats to keep doing the right thing (whatever that may be)?
Who watched Q&A tonight?
Andrew Bolt made a complete dick of himself, Craig Emerson was eminently sensible, Christine Milne is one of the more impressive Greens, and Tony Jones still irritates me LOL
ESJ: One of your more stupid statements in recent times!
on the WA election strong indications after the Grand Final. Gas crisis will go on too long to hold it before and holding it during could bite them.
I guess he had to try to say something negative (if silly) to “counter” the fact that Labor is the party of record low unemployment – through the decades.
Yes if you believe in the Non Accelerating Inflation Rate level of unemployment – record low unemployment by definition is bad news.
Comrades look at the level of unemployment in 1990 and you might understand my point.
Bad news for who Eddie? Ever been out of work? Did it feel good that you were making a contribution to the national economy?
There is a level at which low levels of unemployment heats up the economy causing inflation. Presumably the Reserve Bank believes this is the case otherwise it wouldnt have raised rates so much.
Unemployment for anybody is a waste and a tragedy, unfortunately its also a fact of life in a capitalist economy which the state through social security tries to ameliorate.
In a pre-enterprise bargaining world when wage increases spread through the economy like a virus this was true. But it no longer is.
Which makes one one wonder why Howard turned the social security system into a vote buying machine based around middle class welfare.
And yet the Menzies era – hailed by conservatives as Australia’s Golden Age – saw not only virtually nil unemployment (hence the big immigration programs) but Australians enjoying the highest standard of living in the world and low inflation.
I can’t see this employment rate good news lasting too much longer. It is interesting that Former Fed member Dick Poole coming out and saying that both Freddie Mack and Fannie May, the largest mortgage providers in the US are insolvent. The washup will be that in the end the only way for Australian Banks will be able to fund mortgages will be via local savings. Considering we are poor savers and that over 50% of aussie mortagages are originated from overseas borrowers, trying to get a home loan soon will be a nightmare. The US is doing a great job of dragging the rest of the world down the plug hole. And I haven’t even mentioned the UK, which is in an even worst situation!
The only reason unemployment was so low then was because generally women didn’t work. Also the living standards were artificially high because industry protection effectively subsidised unsustainable wage levels, which just ended up producing inefficient low profit industries.
I prefer how our economy is now where women are free to work if they want, and don’t have to fit into arbitrary social roles.
And of course, hour GDP per capita is now 3 times what it was back then.
Here is a rather sobering graph which shows how poor …
Household Savings Ratio (% of net household disposable income)
http://www.aph.gov.au/LIBRARY/pubs/RP/2007-08/08rp04_4.gif
Thank God for Labor’s compulsory super or we’d have nothing saved!
Average Joe,
I have no particular insight on the timing of the WA election, but the football finals won’t matter in WA this year. The date that will matter for the WA clubs and their supporters is AFL draft week-end.
Also, Grand Final week co-incides with the School Holidays, Queens Birthday Long Weekend and the Royal Show, plus add the Olympic Games and any post Welcome Home Parade/Celebrations, plus the CH 7 Telethon Weekend during the first weekend in October along with the WAFL Grand Final.
Rx @ 310,
Do you have a link to the growth of personal debt for the same periods?
(297) I don’t know about business’s relations with this government, I think it will be strange. With Hawke it was a straight out love-in because he delivered them the unions. Rudd can’t do that, so I think his relationship will be more fraught. His government will be somewhat detached from business is my guess. It is the state that he will openly represent.
Rolly #313, alas no, no graph off hand.
I do however have the following article which indicates that household and business debt was at record levels, described by experts as “alarming” and “out of control”.
Note the date:
The Age, 24 February 2007
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/household-debt-scale-alarms-expert/2007/02/23/1171734021898.html
Pretty chilling stuff. I guess when/if we join the world in a recession we will quickly learn how strong the Coalition’s economy proved to be … For all their bragging, low savings + high interest rates + high inflation + huge debt cannot be healthy.
Just watching Q&A now… my god I can’t believe Emerson didn’t punch Bolt’s lights out. He just wouldn’t shut up!
Psst, here is the latest drama from the Pineapple Party, spelled out quietly so as not to ruffle any horsehair wigs.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24001107-952,00.html
The Queensland liberals are broke, they are the minority party, the guys an idiot.
ShowsOn @ 309 -
I prefer how our economy is now where women are free to work if they want, and don’t have to fit into arbitrary social roles.
Are most women really working (outside the home) because they want to, or because they have to?
Most of the ones I meet don’t.
On the WA election, mid October at the earliest. The Parliament is having a special regional sitting in Bunbury on 9 and 10 September. Bunbury is a key marginal seat and the session has been in the planning since November last year. Any new parliament can’t have its first sitting until after 1 September without cutting a year of the government’s term. So it would be very difficult to have an election and have a first sitting before going down to Bunbury for the planned session.
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/home/nextelections.htm#wa
Two Indian public servants have been arrested as part of an investigation into the corruption of Australia’s $300 million wheat trade with India.
…According to News Ltd, India’s Central Bureau of Investigation wanted to pursue the scandal in 2001, 2004 and 2006, but each time was thwarted by the Howard Government’s lack of assistance.
Tuesday’s arrests were due to new Rudd Government’s support for the investigation, it said.
…In 1998 AWB was still a government body, with the wheat board privatisation coming the following year.
(My emphasis)
http://news.smh.com.au/national/awb-caught-in-indian-wheat-scandal-20080711-3dc2.html
I think it’s time the whole smelly AWB saga, and the former government’s role in it, was revisited in a proper independent inquiry.
Mumble has written another paper on the Australian Electoral Commission which is well worth reading.
(308) So zedder your following the hurd into the bear market. It’s actually very interesting times. Interesting times translates into economic activity.
Like it not not climate change mitigation is going to happen (lost cause or not), for conservatives that can only see jobs in coal mines, this is a disaster, if you have imagination all they can see is the new stuff that has to be built. Carbon miles are going to matter ( rubs hands together with glee).
China’s standard of living is increasing, with new labor laws coming in January 2008, (40 hour week, 1.5 for overtime, double time for weekends, sounds like Australia doesn’t it) won’t help Australia manufacturing, our exchange rate is too high, but the flow of manufacturing activity to china is going to slow and china is going to become a consumer of it’s own product as well as imports (big changes in china).
At the moment Indonesia is the low cost produced (curruption still a bit of a problem), right next door, carbon miles matter.
Americas messy little war, that is costing them a fortune is going to end, the USA managed to run a surplus in the 90’s, the Republicans turned them into a basket case, “praise the lord”, they are going to get the boot.
As for Australia, too many mines are being built ( funded by the debt people complain about). “The Australian” can bitch and moan and wish for the mess that was the Howard years ( or the war on terror if you like) as much as they want, but the world isn’t going back there.
That’s the funniest thing abut Nelson conversion to climate denial. By November the USA will be a different place,they will have signed onto Europe’s agenda, (Europeans have been making money from climate change for a decade); and poor old Nelson will be out there hanging in the breeze, all be himself, on the wrong side of the international agenda.
Steve (317) Thanks, once again, for the update on non-Labor in the great state of Queensland. I doubt linking that story will ‘ruffle’ anyone’s ‘feathers’, including any barristers who visit this site.
David, Brough and Stockdale are meeting with McIvor at the moment, so I’m sure they will come up with something important to put to the Liberal Council meeting tonight.
Meanwhile Dolly Downer has come up with some amazing stuff too. It depends on how much faith one has in the way the Cole Inquiry was set up.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/bias-ignores-hard-work-on-foreign-policy/2008/07/10/1215658033662.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
“One of the saddest things about modern Australia is we still have commentators such as Hartcher who don’t care about any of these issues. They just want to make puerile anti-conservative party political points built on a foundation of trivia.”
The words of Alexander Downer in 324 above. I suppose he has the same thoughts on the anti labor ramblings of Milne, Shanahan, Bolt, et al. LOL.
What is Nelson up to, changing substantially on the ETS yet again?
Obviously the Opposition can not be so incompetent with shadow ministers like Turnbull, Hunt and Coonan denying any change right up to a few hours ago.
So Nelson must be deliberately heading off on his own zig zag path.
The party meeting at the end of the month seems relevant so this behaviour must be aimed at putting Turnbull on the back foot or on getting Nelson’s name in the media.
Is it really the case that any publicity is good publicity?
326
Dr Good Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 11:16 am
What is Nelson up to, changing substantially on the ETS yet again?
It must be to do with the theory that it’s harder to hit a moving target. Nelson is all over the ring and whenever Labor land a punch he disappears in a puff of smoke and reappears elsewhere hoping to whack Rudd in the back of the head or below the belt – anywhere he can land a blow.
Nelson’s problem is that he’s only in the first minute of a 15 round bout and he’s already bleeding profusely from cuts to his face. I reckon his handlers will throw in the towel before the end of the second round. Then we’ll see Big Bad Malcolm Allbull enter the ring with his shorts pulled up to his neck line to minimise the target area. That won’t help him win but it will see him through to an election loss.
Oh! Dear!
The Libbles spearing themselves in the foot again (they haven’t caught up with the concept of firearms yet) and so close to the face too (vis. foot-in-mouth).
They could poke an eye out.
Tut! Tut!
The Catholoc Church warns the PM lifting Medicare surcharge could hammer battlers: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24001993-601,00.html
329 John of Melbourne – same old argument by the same old paper. We’ll see.
Are we heading in the right direction?
http://www.roymorgan.com.au/
329 It’s all pretty brainless stuff when you consider only one part of the equation.
So while all the public wards are overflowing the private hospitals will go broke because no one is there. Presumably the doctors and nurses employed there will be looking for work too.
Tick
Tick
Tick
Big picture anyone?
The complaints that users might pay the actual cost in a user pays system are just too funny. It couldn’t possibly suggest that purely capitalist health care system might have some structural problems?
Duh!
Morgan 59% – 41% TPP Labor. Yep, Rudd’s in trouble, no doubt about that.
It looks like it is an open warfare now between the Nowhere Man and the Everywhere Man over the ETS model and the start date.
If the Libs become obstructive over the Government’s CC plan in the Senate, Rudd should do a DD over this. It is too important to diddle and doddle over this and it will also define the Rudd Government.
I wonder if Downer has read the papers in the last 6 months. This comment by him is just so ridiculous.
“The tragedy of much public commentary in Australia is that it is blatantly anti-conservative, fascinated with trivia and, when it comes to conservatives, rich with personal abuse.”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/downer-v-hartcher/2008/07/10/1215658033662.html
I wonder if Downer has read the papers in the last 6 months. This comment by him is just so ridiculous.
Downer’s lack of critical self-awareness and sneering hypocrisy is truly breathtaking.
336 Just Me
Mate don’t hold back – this is ozblogistan.
The man is an outright idiot, and has for the last decade, been a bloody dangerous one.
If he wants personal abuse, I’d be prepared to give it to him, but I’ve got a little paradox for you – you can’t prove to an idiot that they are in fact an idiot. (In some ways it defines the term)
Roy Morgan Face-to-face conducted over the weekends of June 28/29 & July 5/6 now available at http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4307/ TPP 59/41
onimod @ 337
“you can’t prove to an idiot that they are in fact an idiot”
lol.
But you can put them in jail for complicity in 300 million dollars’ worth of corrupt circumvention of UN sanctions – “alleged complicity”, sorry.
Blimey if I was a numbers cruncher in the ALP I’d be running around in circles screaming “We’re doomed, doomed I tell you!”.
That Morgan result is ONLY a 6%+ swing since the election and would ONLY give the ALP and EXTRA 20 odd seats if an election was based on this poll.
“Doomed!”
…you can’t prove to an idiot that they are in fact an idiot. (In some ways it defines the term)
He he.
How true.
It’s similar to the problem of how do you have a rational argument with somebody who is irrational, or an honest debate with somebody who is dishonest?
But you can put them in jail for [alleged, alleged] complicity in 300 million dollars’ worth of corrupt circumvention of UN sanctions…
And India just might provide such an opportunity. (See # 321.) If I was Downer, I would be checking out the real estate in Argentina, seeing if there was a bit of land available next to the Bushes’ escape hole.
“In early July, ALP support is 48.5% (down 3.5%), L-NP support 35% (up 1%), support for the Greens 8% (unchanged), Family First 2.5% (up 1%) and Independent/Others 6% (up 1%). ”
Err Roy these numbers don’t add up – but don’t worry you have ind/others up 1.5% in the primary table.
New thread.