The latest Morgan face-to-face survey, combining polling conducted over the previous two weekends, shows Labor’s two-party lead down slightly to 59-41 from 61-39 in the previous survey. Their primary vote is down 3.5 per cent to 48.5 per cent, but the Coalition is up only 1 per cent to 35 per cent. The balance has gone to Family First and independent/others.
The Courier-Mail also reports on a Newspoll survey conducted for Griffith University’s Federalism Project showing “almost one in five” believe the states should be abolished, and “only one in three people in Queensland wants the status quo of federal, state and local government to remain”. More from Griffith University’s Socio-Legal Research Centre.
285 Comments
William, primary vote for Labor is 48.5%
So this is the narrowing. ! I’d hate to see it if the govt ever their act together.
Brendan is goooooooooooone. !
Corrected. I’ve also added a para about a poll on federalism in the Courier-Mail.
“only one in three people in Queensland wants the status quo of federal, state and local government to remain”.
Unless I have my math wrong that means 2 thirds want it to stay. Hmm, 66%, that’s a pretty healthy majority.
Oops, misread the posting. That’s a surprise finding.
GB more figures here.
http://www.griffith.edu.au/centre/slrc/federalism/
Love the impact that little word “only’ can have.
As sondeo said, “IT’S THE NARROWING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
William, the link to Morgan needs fixing.
Not doing too well today, am I. Link fixed. I’ve added the Griffith Uni link from Steve as well.
A clear cut case of wanting your cake and eating it too. Nelson is all over the shop on ETS.
http://news.theage.com.au/national/nelson-may-seek-low-impact-ets-in-2012-20080711-3dek.html
Well, I’ve been criticising Rudd over the past few days for not being inspirational enough, and I stick to that. I think a good dose of optimistic rhetoric on how we can lead the world in new technology and good example is preferable to defending charges that we are mugs who should always follow our masters and not jump too soon.
On the other hand, Nelson is showing the downside of thinking out loud. Every half a day now his ETS laughingly-called “policy” changes, depending on who he thinks is his target audience. He’s been doing this for a while now, and it’s what nearly brought him down on The Apology and Work Choices: trying to be all things to all people, all the time.
There’s a yawning gap on the blind side here (sorry, can’t resist another sporting analogy) for Rudd to run the full length of the field and score under the posts. He should turn defense into attack and challenge the country to come along with him on the Great Quest for a better Australia and a better world.
In the meantime I expect Nelson to be still standing there mouth agape trying to figure out why defending all positions on the field hasn’t worked.
Thing is, Nelson is making Rudd’s not so good performance look very good indeed. Rudd could be trying a lot harder, and might have been forced to if Nelson had half a clue.
In a case of Policy Wonk meets Out-And-Out Dickhead, I guess the Wonk wins, but not by as much as he should be winning.
One day the Libs will get their act together and the run won’t be so easy for Rudd. He’s not a natural orator, and some good old fashioned oratory is needed in the current situation to blast the cobwebs away from the mind-numbing, sleep-inducing mire he has allowed this debate to become.
Is the moderator operating? Have lost a couple of comments into cyberspace in the past few days.
I take it all back, William.
I went for my regular trip to the Vampires today – Queensland Medical Labs. To have a arm full of blood taken for tests.
They have a new poster in the waiting room – A donation of $27,600 to plant trees to offset the carbon emissions caused by their courier fleet.
What an ETS will do is make all businesses look at how much carbon they produce and force them to do what many companies are already doing voluntarily.
We plant trees, native to our region.
Planted about 15,000 in the last ten years or so.
About 1,500-2,000 are growing well.
Last year we planted 457 [we actually counted them].
They ALL died. Bloody drought.
So if someone wants to pay us to plant trees we will happily take their money.
But we will also need money for water to hand water them through their first year, we haven’t got enough for ourselves much less trees cos we live on the Murray and our water source has disappeared.
Any offers?
Nelson is really starting to loose the plot, and not just on ETS. I’m starting to wonder if his problem is too many alcopops or not enough!
Mind you, he’s not the only one in the Liberal Party acting funny ATM. These are strange days indeed!
MayoFeral
It is the delayed shock starting to manifest itself. They are only just getting to the end of the initial denial phase, and are starting to finally understand that it wasn’t a mistake, the electorate really meant it, and that they not going to have serious shot at winning until at least 2013, maybe longer.
fred
Sorry for your situation but the answer is to plant trees where it rains.
Coastal Nth NSW and SE Qld, Northern QLD. For a start.
Bushfire Bill @ 12 –
Well, I’ve been criticising Rudd over the past few days for not being inspirational enough, and I stick to that. I think a good dose of optimistic rhetoric on how we can lead the world in new technology and good example is preferable to defending charges that we are mugs who should always follow our masters and not jump too soon.
Couldn’t agree more.
I’ve posted a few times about how much we’ve already lost by not getting serious about this. The 58,000 Germans building a huge and very profitable solar industry on our PV technology, China’s equivalent of Bill Gates who’s making his billions also on our technology in China instead of here, his preferred option, because the Howard government and business weren’t interested in risking a few million to commercialise the product of Aussie brains.
And today another case. A company that couldn’t get funding here to automate the manufacture of solar collectors for large scale solar farms which has moved to the US, where people are aware of the mess we’re in and are willing to do something about it even in economically hard times. They will no doubt make a fortune in the process.
Meanwhile we just keep doing the only thing the Lib think we’re capable of: digging bloody great big holes.
ruawake@19
or spend the money put aside for the water buyback and actually buy it back – problem with over-allocation is that eventually everybody uses their allocation…
Bushfire Bill — I’d like to see the big inspirational speech too, but surely half of the problem at the moment is a national media intent on bringing him down. Hard to get the happys happening when Rupert’s team has decided to attack everything the govt does. Look at how they report the latest Morgan that is the subject of this post Spun for maximum damage:
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,24003942-31037,00.html
We are ill-served by our national media.
Surely Turnball has had enough and will challenge Nelson soon?
Yes, I know the Liberals with Malcolm as leader will be a much more formidable opposition, but anything is better than the current farce of the idiot from Bradfield being propped up by a bunch of right wing dingbats.
Higgins for Holt?
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/4781955/harold-holt-grandson-undecided-political-push
I listened to Coastal Conversations on ABC Coast FM today Holt was interviewed for an hour.
No he will not stand for Higgins.
It’s amazing isn’t it? The MSM don’t want to know Morgan until it can use the result to hit Labor over the head with.
Ha Ha they relied on Roys headline – which was wrong. Tossers.
Rudd’s hard sell is yet to come on the ETS. Why bother until the necessary reports are in? For heaven sake give the guy a break.
GB
Exactly – Rudd has said this is what we are doing – Garnaut Draft – Green Paper – Garnaut Final – White Paper.
At each stage Brenda will give himself a wedgie, trying to sooth the sceptics and worry the crap out of his perceived support base.
Rudd is doing Brenda slowly and its pretty to watch.
Gary: only the MSM would use a 59-41 poll lead to bash Rudd with, they are shameless barrackers for the Liberal Party.
With figures like these I think the ALP should talk Nicole Cornes into having a go at Mayo. Brendan Nelson can campaign on his emissions trading backdown or perhaps he’ll support a first strike against Iran. The Iraq policy was such a success when he was Defence Minister..
GB @ 28
What he said.
Patience, and timing, are important here.
Rudd is also setting up a second term agenda.
All this chatter rather concerns me as to the quality of the examiners in the higher education world.
We seem to have produced a batches of high quality twits over a long period of time.
*Doctor* Nelson makes me concerned each time I need to visit a medico. The man displays an incredible lack of reasoning ability. So fixed in his ideas of how the world ought to be that he is quite unable to see what is actually happening around him.
The millionaire idiot savant who claims to be the opposition’s financial whiz seems to believe that, like the disastrous duo who held the reins before him, that all things important revolve around the manipulation of money.
As for the rat-faced papal apologist who pretends to know what’s best for everybody and everything, he has yet to convince me that he has even the slightest grasp of what really goes on in the everyday world.
None of them seems to have grasped the nettle and accepted that people resoundingly rejected the adage “Better the devil you know…” in the last election.
There’s no need for the incumbents in government to waste energy on discrediting the ‘opposition’ as they are doing it to themselves quite successfully.
No, I think that they’re handing the next election to the Ruddy mob on a silver platter, ably assisted by the least publicly aware bunch of commentators that the news media have ever produced.
Sorry if I sound a little bitter, but I feel that the continually emerging evidence of the severe problems presently confronting humanity requires much more mature behaviour than that being demonstrated by the opposition.
We are so much in need of a determined omnipartisan approach to the looming calamity that perhaps putting the country into a “State of Emergency”, as might be done in the case of a threat of foreign aggression, may be the only solution.
The News. Ltd. gaggle of pundits will be grateful that our nation’s collective body (mid-year school Hols) and soul (Catholic WYD) are distracted from this latest polling disproof of an imminent collapse in Team Rudd’s electoral appeal.
Of course, Milne, Piers, Bolt and their ilk will continue to strive mightily to wreak a propanganda pox upon the Rudd Government, but not even a rousing fictional hatchet job from their right-wing mates at Working Dog Media (”The Hollowmen”, Wednesdays, 9:30pm, ABC1) will turn the electorate against Rudd until he brings forth an egregrious stuff-up in the magnitude of Iraq, AWD Bribes, and WorkChoices.
As a couple of Rudd’s ministers are prime candidates for the “Downer League” of possessing a natural proclivity for blunders, then the PM’s reputedly obsessive-compulsive micro-management might well be the character flaw which averts tragedy and makes him a dead-cert to win a second term.
“The Federal Government will spend $5 million upgrading a breastfeeding advice hotline to a 24-hour toll-free service.
The funding was part of an election promise to improve breastfeeding support services for mothers.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/11/2301409.htm?section=justin
This is an example of the little things, that hardly get reported, that the Govt. is doing. Bit by bit doing things that help.
Autism, tissue donations etc. These little things all add up.
Congratulations William, you seem to have passed the trots in one swift manouevre.
Bet you miss us though ESJ.
Bye.
Banks rush to put up rates as interest rates are set to fall?
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/07/its-on-big-one-breaks-through-95-per.html
“Rudd’s hard sell is yet to come on the ETS. Why bother until the necessary reports are in? For heaven sake give the guy a break.”
Obviously some bludgers expect him to be god.
It’s a pretty good effort for Labor to be still so strong in the polls with lots of bad economic signs around. It just shows how important employment is – people will cope with rising food, mortgage, rent and petrol prices if they’ve still got a job.
There was an interesting interview with Hugh Mackay on the 7.30 report a couple of weeks ago, where he said his focus groups were suggesting that there’s more goodwill than Labor probably thinks from the public, to do something drastic about climate change. But he warned that the window of opportunity mightn’t last too long if the government didn’t act now. The release of the Garnaut report and the CSIRO report on “more droughts, more often” is a good start to raise the awareness, but more needs to be done quickly.
The Opposition has no idea. The Liberals operate as an anti-Labor party, and aren’t particularly good at developing policy of their own. Turnbull’s problem is that he generally supportsLabor’s policy on things like petrol and climate change – he should have joined the ALP years ago when he had the chance. Consequently, he can’t get support from the anti-ALP side of his party, and, if he becomes leader, will always have people undermining him.
And – changing the subject a bit – what’s with the CSIRO lately? They seem to be releasing a new study every second day about climate change/drought/petrol. Are they worried Rudd will cut their funding if they don’t pull their finger out? Most of the reports have been interesting, though to paint the “worst case scenario” as $8 a litre for oil is overly alarmist. There’s a whole lot of oil in Iraq just waiting to be pumped out, when the price gets high enough to ustify the effort.
According to Ten News Perth, Tomorrow’s Westpoll will reveal that only 12% of those surveyed think that Troy Buswell will make a better Premier than Alan Carpenter, down from 18%
Methinks the WA Shadow Cabinet will be holding their meetings in a phone booth
It’s so easy to be critical. The PM’s performance to date has been outstanding. You give me a newspaper column and I will guarantee you the Liberals won’t even be in opposition after the next election.
If you want supernatural perfection, I suggest you vote for the pope. Apparently he is due here very shortly.
Btw Jen, what’s it like over there in the after life? I hope you are all keeping Mistress Catrina happy! LOL
though to paint the “worst case scenario” as $8 a litre for oil is overly alarmist.
Wouldn’t bet on it.
There’s a whole lot of oil in Iraq just waiting to be pumped out, when the price gets high enough to ustify the effort.
There are also an awful lot more people in the world who are bidding for it than 10 years ago, and a much keener awareness of how finite and precious it is.
And I am not certain that it is low price holding back the Iraq oil flow.
How could anyone vote for Troy Buswell? It defies belief he is still WA Liberal Leader. Carpenter will win that election in a canter.
People who take what’s written in The West, The Sunday Times and what’s said on 6PR as Gospel
Perhaps (45) there should be an investigation to identify these people. Maybe pyschiatric intervention could be ordered too?
” …..though to paint the “worst case scenario” as $8 a litre for oil is overly alarmist.”
Jeez haven’t we short memories.
I can remember a columnist being ridiculed for suggesting that bangwater could get to (wait for it…) a (One = 1) dollar a *gallon*.
But then I’m old and crusty
Am I too sceptical or does Bush ratchet up the tension every time the oil price shows a sign of weakening. This week saw encouraging signs in the barrel price, then hey presto, suddenly Iran are back on the front pages and up the oil price goes again. Every time this crooked family are in power oil goes through the roof, what a friggin disaster they are!
Rolly @ 33, “As for the rat-faced papal apologist”. Jeez, what a classic, sums him up so so well, ROTFL.
Progressive Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
It is getting tiresome; unfortunately the dingbats have control.
Rudd should have a quiet word with Brumby…
“The Victorian Government secured the rights for the extension of the Melbourne Grand Prix contract for a further 5 years — till 2015 — despite renewed opposition to the race and the cost to taxpayers”
According to Gary Morgan this was a poll-effecting event during the fortnight!
Such bad press for Rudd it’s no wonder Labor’s plumbing the depths at 59/41.
@49 Basil Fawlty,
Got to keep up the value of the Bush family fortune somehow.
Centre – come and see for yourself.
all very civilised and pleasant really.
Westpoll post up.
The Pineapple Party saga continues on to the constitutional conventions on July 26 and 27.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/brough-in-limbo-over-presidency-of-merged-parties/2008/07/11/1215658125026.html
Having read the “Fuel for Thought” document (it is on the CSIRO website for anyone with time to read 44 pages of fairly light reading), it does not suggest that $8 litre petrol is likely as the media has reported (One TV station even suggested that was a minimum figure). It said if production was to fall greatly (at the top range of peak Oil pundits predictions), demand did not fall and there was no technology changes in relation to bio-fuels and car design $8 a litre might happen. Even then it was expected to fall after 2018.
The most alarming part of the report was the $3 a litre in 2012 under most scenarios (peak oil, no peak oil, bio-fuels, no bio-fuels).
The rest of it is a sign of hope as it suggest a host of alternatives that will be used and was advocating heavy investement in R&D which is the likely solution like it has been for every other humanitian problem in history.
I dont know why everyone keeps looking at bio fuels. It might help with one problem but it just causes another (i.e. food shortages)
Dario @ 58 – Not necessarily. Bio fuels could be made in huge bioreactors using algae. Wikipedia have a good article on this.
Unfortunately it seems those sorts of biofuels are getting very little attention, while the ones made from food sources are. Should that change, it would be a positive thing, but I won’t be holding my breath.
The report mentioned that that algaes are about 5 to 10 years away, and that other biofuels are currently being produce. Most of Australia’s biofuels are made from waste agriculture products (Sugar Cane stalks, wheat straw). You can eat it but you wouldn’t want to.
The food problem is an issue in the USA where corn is being used and is driving up prices (which has sent a shockwave through the other grain markets). There is also an issue in Brazil where sugarcane is being grown where rainforests once stood.
Some of the Algaes can use up to 10% of the sunlight, which is as good as solar cells. Biofuels should be look upon as portable solar energy.
In the US too there is the issue of subsidies, some of the corn going to biofuels is subsidised for that
Jovial Monk @ 62 – The problem is they subsidise it for just about everything. It’s the reason I believe our government made a mistake in ending the ’single desk’ arrangement for wheat.
Apart from perhaps lower prices, it means we’ve given up about the only lever we had to encourage them (and the EU) to end farm subsidies. Not only do they encourage waste and environmental harm, they greatly impact returns Third World farmers can get for their produce.
Yeah I know, dump subsidised food in a country and the farmers there go broke, even starve
Free trade my arse
#54 – Jen Says: [all very civilised and pleasant really] – has to be. with a conga line of suck holes.
I guess I’m pretty pi$$ed of with the NSW Labor government, but I’m almost prompted to vote for them again when I read lead-ins like this one from today’s Telegraph.
I’m sure that 84% of Telegraph readers disapproving of him in an unscientific, on-line poll will cause him to put the noose around his neck and jump the plank.
“Another blow”? A bunch of Murdoch-adicted crazies don’t approve of Iemma? Hit me with a limp lettuce leaf. This is the Tele getting a bit above itself, methinks. Bootstrapping gone silly.
66 Bushfire Bill – you put into words, in a way I could never do, what I thought when I read this malarky.
I thought Nelson might be having a look at his own recent performance but no he’s found an MP performing as badly as himself:
“Dr Nelson addressed Tasmania’s state Liberal conference in Launceston today, saying the performance of the first-time member for Bass, who replaced a Liberal, has been pathetic and appalling.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24009062-12377,00.html
Brenda is getting desparate – Jodie Campbell should chop his nuts off.
Yeah, all true, but it’s the way the Lib politicians have no shame in calling their opponents “pathetic” and “appalling” in public that irks me. This born-to-rule thing dies hard in them. If Labor politician got up at a party conference and used this kind of language they’d be called gangsters and ruffians, buffoons all. But the Lib pollies seem to think it’s their right to use whatever language they like.
Turnbull is another example of this. The other night on Lateline, and a weeks or so before in his SMH vcolumn he was so rude and crude it made even me blush.
“The charge was adjourned sine die and reissued in the name of her former husband Jason John Campbell.
Police offered no evidence when the count came before the court in January, 2008 and the charge was dismissed.”
I pointed this out to ABC online a few months ago – when they tried a hatchet job on Jodie Campbell – they issued a “clarification”.
Brenda will not be leader of the fibs when parliament next sits.
“Ms Campbell had failed to say a word in Canberra in defence of funding cuts to an Australian Technical College (ATC) in the north-east electorate, Dr Nelson said. ”
Brenda has not mentioned ATC’s in parliament either. In fact the only time they have been mentioned was here:
http://parlinfoweb.aph.gov.au/piweb/view_document.aspx?id=2837765&table=HANSARDR
Jill Hall ALP.
Although the Mad Monk did have something to say “Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member for Shortland is wasting our time raving on about people going surfing. If she has a question to ask the minister, she should ask it.”
Finns 65 – How long before the first one is cannibalised though?
ESJ, it is not healthy if you keep on sucking each other up 24/7. you bound to swallow one eventually
Oh Shock Horror, Kevin Rudd Swears in his office !!!
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24009354-948,00.html
Although I dont think the penny has dropped that they managed to self-exile.
75 Frank – you mean Rudd behaves like many other blokes in Australia? Bloody hell, how terrible.
Wasnt he booted out because he was gloating about screwing employers over in a wage case? Olsen should wash his mouth (and memory) out.
Some of my friends are world beaters at swearing but choose very carefully when and where to swear. I really don’t see the big deal. What’s this bloke want Rudd to do, swear at every interview or in parliament? Maybe cut out swearing altogether because …. um , er, well buggered if I know really.
Gary B,
Do you have any criticisms of the PM’s performance to date?
Not his swearing Edward.
I think he is doing a good job personally. Of course I was expecting perfection unlike some and nor do I think Rome was built in a day. I’ll make my judgement at the end of the first term.
Make that “was” WASN”T.
OMG Kevin Rudd swears?
That ought to bump the approval rating up a few more points!
Any advance spoilers of Glenn Milne’s offering for tomorrow’s Sunday News Ltd papers?
So can I take Gary B your series of answers to mean you have no criticisms at all of the PM’s performance to date?
It means, Edward, I’m prepared to cut him slack if need be on policy implementation. Let me repeat, I think he is doing a good job. I certainly don’t believe swearing or not makes or breaks a PM. Hell, if that was the case we would have a lot of “broken” PM’s and the US would have a lot of “broken” presidents. LBJ was renowned for swearing. See if you can find an interview with him swearing profusely in it.
Oh Progressive, you’ve come back from the island already? Missed us hey? I cant say I blame you!
What’s your point anyway Edward?
No Gary B you no very well that my question had nothing to do with swearing. I am asking your personal opinion, is there anything you would be critical to date on the PM’s performance? I am taking your answers to mean your opinion is a no.
Edward, just out for a bit of sniping are we? Hmm?
Not all Gary B. Just a humble question.
Look, if you must know I think he wears awful styled suits. Oh, and his hair could be better combed and he could stop mispronouncing words. You know Edward, the real important stuff like that.
If you dont want to answer the question Gary B that’s fine.
This “news” that Rudd swears in his office is not news at all of course. I knew of this last year. This came out in the course of the LOOONG election campaign. It’s actually old news.
Hang on Edward I’ve answered your question a number of times. What more do you want?
You ARE just sniping. Find someone else to snipe at please.
No Gary B I dont believe asking a question is sniping. I always answer your questions.
I am curious to see if you have any criticisms. One advantage conservative governments have is that expectations of what they will do are so much lower. The reflective views of partisans are often more perceptive when their is some honest assessment.
But I accept your answers to be very clear as to your views now.
ESJ: Of course I regularly return here just to read your erudite comments!
#78
Dario
Remember, “You can’t touch me, I’m part of the union” LOL!
I have no criticism of Kevin Rudd,he is doing an excellent job in his 6 months at the helm.
ESJ,what criticism do you have of John Howard and Dr Nelson?
I believe that Bushfirebill is too harsh and expecting too much from Rudd. He is over critical and has forgotten what happened to Whitlam when he tried to do everything at one go, all the pent up frustration of being in opposition for 23 years.
There is enough BS from the idiots out there telling us that he has so many broken promises and what a liar Rudd is that I should add to all that would be ridiculous.
If those who don’t support Rudd would debate issues instead of Rudd then maybe just maybe people who support Rudd can find faults with some policies.
Rudd the PM is doing a great job Internationally and at home. Policy wise he, with the help of Swan, brought out a budget which for the moment has the RB leaving interest rates steady for the last few months. He has set in motion for Australia to get it self ready for ETS, with further reports from Wong and Garnaut. Pensioners have had the utility bonus set in stone, increased the fortnightly pension and also changed the way increases where to be assessed.
I also see the banks are increasing interest rates outside of the RB rates. This just further diminishes the myth about Howard keeping interest rates at record lows, as the Banks where borrowing overseas at lower interest rates that they could borrow at the RB rates.That is why interest rates were so low.
Muski, I actually quite specifically mentioned Whitlam and a NOT being a model for Rudd (and I mentioned Keating as well).
I wasn’t advocating a mad panic of action and policy innovation.
I was advocating a clarifying speech (or series of them) that informed us of where this ETS thing was going to leave us in the next decade.
Are we going to be huddled masses that have gone back to horse and buggies because petrol is too expensive? Clinging to life in ghost towns in the far west as the drought hits hard? Unemployed because our staple industries like digging coal out of the ground have been cruelly abolished? And all this while the world laughs at us for being mugs for believing this Global Warming guff?
Or are we to be a progressive country that uses smaller cars and alternative fuels? Are out great towns of the west going to find new life as solar electricity fuelled centers of excellence? Are new industries to spring up, demonstrating our adaptability and triumph over the problems facing us? And all this while the world envies us, purchases our technology and wishes they’d had our foresight in acting soon?
No mad scramble.
Just the message that we can do better if we realise that a change in attidude and goals could be a good thing.
Paul Daley in The Age has this to say about a possible Costello resurgence:
“…much stronger than Kevin, and wipes the floor with Swannie”. Ho, hum…
They’re talking about performance in QT, mainly.
Costello’s main “strength” was his ability to craft an ascerbically witty one-liner in QT when he had the Speaker to protect him.
If ever there was a gutless wonder who needed a nobbled ref to prosper, it’s Peter Costello.
Please, oh please Libs, stop being teh stupid and draft Pistol Pete.
#84 – Progressive: Your friends are on an amateur island full of legal minefields. No publisher, no editorial and moderation policies, and post at your own risks. Wow, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and empty pockets.
Finns,
Just re read my copy of Orwell’s “Animal Farm”. Seems like a template to me.
102 “I also see the banks are increasing interest rates outside of the RB rates. This just further diminishes the myth about Howard keeping interest rates at record lows, as the Banks where borrowing overseas at lower interest rates that they could borrow at the RB rates.That is why interest rates were so low.”
Muskiemp, it seems that Costello was stretching the truth a little here too to make himself look like a better performer.
“NAB was forced to make the disclosure as part of its underwriting agreement for the dividend reinvestment scheme. It also contradicts a reassurance from former federal treasurer Peter Costello last year that no Australian banks had exposures to the the CDO market in the US.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24006310-643,00.html
Ther is an interesting piece here on the CDO market and the riskiness of the insurance methods for these markets.
http://aussiefinancewatch.blogspot.com/
LOL MuskieKemp I hope you can maintain the faith.
BB and Steve,
So Costello didn’t know what the Banks were up to. We can only hope that the coalition draft Costello to lead the opposition LOL
So the question remains if the Australian banks were all away in international markets taking advantage of cheaper global interest rates, what did the three financial regulators under the control of Costello, the RBA, APRA and the ACCC do to ensure these funds were properly insured?
http://www.wallstreet-consulting.com/course.php?course_id=50
http://www.risk.net/public/showPage.html?page=printer_friendly_risknet&print=468527
ESJ
Not hard at all
Bushfire @ 104,
Agree with you that some people are exaggerating Costello’s capabilities.
However, I think his prospects are really quite clear:
If there’s a recession, or close to it, he becomes pretty electable. The line is simple, “things were better when John and I ran the show”, and it will be hard for Labor to counter. Unemployment, inflation and interest rates (much more than a relatively abstract measure such as GDP growth) will be the electoral keys.
On the other hand, if (as anyone sane hopes) the economy keeps going pretty well, Costello would be better advised not to try to become PM.
If I were him, I’d be sitting back for about another year, I think, to see what happens.
112 “If I were him, I’d be sitting back for about another year, I think, to see what happens.”
Dyno, that is what he has done for ever and it has got him nowhere yet.
Exactly what he did with financial oversight and as soon as he leaves the banks tell us they have to put up rates to cover losses that he claimed didn’t exist.
#112, Dyno,
The longer Cossie hangs out, the firmer the perception will be that he has no ticker to go out and fight for the things he wants. The perception is already very strong that he wants everything on a plate for him. I think the punters have already passed him by.
He was handed the Leadership on a plate after the election Dyno and turned up his nose at the idea.
So Rudd swears?
Oh dear, I guess I can never vote for him again!
And I sense a few anti-Obama people having a hissy fit because they weren’t invited over to the new board LOL
Agree that the punters have passed him by, which is exactly why I think only a recession can save his PM aspirations.
But if there is a recession, with all the pain that brings, I think many of the affected voters won’t care if Costello has spent the last little while filing his nails – he’ll be saleable as the Treasurer when times were good.
You mean ‘a recession we have to have’ just to make Costello electable, now that is a novel idea.
The problem the Libs have and especially Costello is when to skewer the Howard legacy. Too many of the incumbent Libs are pining for the good old days on not getting on with creating a vision for a future Liberal Government.
Both Howard and Costello are in the “mist” of writing their views about the Government years. Costello needs to decide whether to go for broke and really do over the old man’s legacy and thereby promote himself as the beacon of economic reason in a sea of spendthrift socialism. Or he can remain as servile and obsequious as he has to date.
I expect Howard to show all the love, consideration and modesty regarding his years in power. No doubt, he will provide feint prasie to his Treasurer but readers will be left in no doubt about Costello’s prevarication, disloyalty and lack of bottle. Not the sort of man that should be running the country?
Personally, I think Costello should go for it now and take a chance for once in his life. Until someone wins the battle of the past, then the Libs have no future.
#116 – have you heard of the Groucho Marx’s doctrine?
GG I wouldn’t hold my breathe waiting for any risk taking either in the memoirs or in pursuit of the leadership. The risk taking has been left to others like the big banks and Brenda. Anyway, who writes their political memoirs and then strikes out on a higher political agenda?
steve,
Most politicians these days have a biography published prior to ascencion to power. I suppose it’s a part of the getting to know you “shtick” with the electorate. I reckon Costello can paint a convincingly positive summary of his career to date and use that to launch an assault on the “PM summit”.
Costello will not take the leadership and will resign later this year… period
“Pope’s plane arrives in Darwin”
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24012475-29277,00.html
Oh the irony!
Dyno #117:
Sorry, but that doesn’t make sense. Someone who can run an economy when times are good is no use when times are bad.
And a lot of people know that.
Dyno, you certainly have a patronising view of the Australian people. I mean, I know they’re a bit thick at times, and there’s a bit of a herd mentality going on occasion, but to think that they would believe Costello can solve a recession all by himself because he’s never been Treasurer in a recession, or because magically things will turn around just because he’s there, is treating them like total morons.
I don’t think we will go into recession, but if we do, the high interest rate policies pursued by Costello in the last term will be one reason why we got there.
He should’ve been cutting spending when he increased it, but of course he had an election to try and buy.
104 BB
It is amazing where these reporters like Peter Daley get their information from. A vague reference to “several senior ministers” is frustrating. While reporters protect their sources so that they can get more info some other time, the resultant very vague-ness of their report really regulates it to the level of gossip over the back fence.
I agree that Costello, who seemed to try to copy Keating in Parliament, needed the whole armory of the Gov’t behind him to give him the courage to make his cutting statements. But Keating had real guts. Perhaps Costello has a an inkling of his limitations which maybe is why he has never seriously tried to be PM.
His economic credentials(which are now shown to have a lot of defects) were obtained in amazingly good times by Global factors not under his control. All these factors seemed to be in line in order to give him a remarkably good run. He has had no experience at all in managing a recession in Globally adverse conditions. I doubt if he would have the heart for it.
Keating on the other hand managed the economy in very trying times and was prepared to do the hard yards politically for it. He did much good for the economy and built its foundations for the present times.
I doubt if Costello would want to be PM during a recession under adverse conditions. In that situation of course he would not be Treasurer but he would still have to wear the political consequences. He wouldn’t have the heart.
I truly hope Costello gets the leadership. He is so disliked it can only increase the chances of the further demise of the Libs.
He is too gutless to take the leadership. He avoided the leadership in 1995, 2001, 2005, 2006, and twice in 2007.
He is on the public record saying that he thought the coalition was going to lose the 2007 election for the entirety of that year, but did nothing to stop it. Those are the actions of someone unfit to lead a party, let alone a country.
All the criticisms that I have read about Costello on this thread so far are well founded and justified. However Bludgers, it may well be wise to save your energies for the time being.
Cossie will get the leadership and his timing with the support of big business will be similar to the period of when Howard and Rudd became leaders in their term of opposition.
As I have said before, he will be given the MOTHER of all honeymoons, all expenses paid by the MSM. So it is going to be up to intelligent commentry on blogs like this to expose its propaganda.
As for Straightbull, he knows it, so may well decide to make a move before that happens.
If I have any criticisms so far of the PM’s performance, it is that Labor did not defend fuelwatch as much and did not attack Brenda’s economically irresponsible populist excise cut.
Otherwise – super!
130 Centre
Costello and big business – pull the other one. Big business and the LP is as mythical as Unions and the ALP. Sure there are some businesses that support the LP strongly, but I believe Peter Martin had an entry comparing business donations that showed a lot of favour toward the ALP. The big banks have been strongly anti-Costello for some time, and by the middle of last year were not shy in saying it either. Business is very much beholden to the banks at present.
Costello and big ‘carbon’ business I could believe, but that’s got a limited lifespan, and any business with enough international exposure knows things have to change here for them to remain long term competitive.
Costello and the press – I can definitely believe that, and it might actually be the best of both worlds. Polling this year suggests the Australian public have little respect for the press – so the press firmly behind a substance-free Costello might be just like one used-car-salesman telling you another used-car-salesman is giving you a good deal.
Sure – some people will fall for it.
onimod, who do you think unions vote for, regardless? And who do you think big business is going to vote for, regardless?
As for business donations? That’s like a tax evader giving to charity.
I still think Captain Smirk will retire from politics by October!
Howard and Costello, you’ll remember, before the election were warning of an approaching global “tsunami”. They implied, at times outright stated, that the electorate shouldn’t dare to vote Labor when the economic outlook looks uncertain.
Well, we did of course, indicating one or more of the following:
*) the electorate considered the Coalition inexperienced to “manage” the economy in uncertain times
*) the electorate did not trust the Coalition to do the right thing by them when times get tough
*) the electorate preferred a Labor government in office during difficult economic conditions
None of this bodes well for the gutless wonder Costello if a recession should arrive. He’s also weighted down by his failed record on interest rates and inflation, and of course his Industrial Relation extremism.
The government could dig up some juicy media stories where good ole Pete advocates wage cuts for workers, abolition of all forms of protection from Unfair Dismissal, and other nasties designed to put the working class “in their place”. Friend of the workers – he is not.
He was always a poor poll performer when in government. Absence will not make the heart grow fonder.
Centre, most of the union people I know vote Green, but perhaps that’s a Tassie thing.
The pope is staying down the road from where I am. Will I go and rub him out?
Only kidding.
Costello is on the record advocating a “work will set you free” model for IR policy that makes Workchoices appear benevolent.Considering that the HR Nicholls (Costello’s creation) was the idelogical imperative behind Workchoices, I think Julia and Kevin would relish his return. Costello is a could-ave-been souffle!
Which unions are you referring to? If the Greens had their way every CFMEU member would end up unemployed in ten years. The Greens oppose wood chipping because they say the wood chips just end up in Japan where they are turned into paper, so when the Government endorses a plan for a pulp mill they oppose that too. Their policies don’t make sense.
Centre
Given that corporations don’t vote as such…
I don’t think big business does vote LP regardless.
Who did the unions vote for in Tasmania in 2004?
I think there are correlations, but the old ideological battlegrounds are evaporating by the day.
The Fibs don’t do factions well, that is not to say they don’t have them. There is one faction that is almost half of the parliamentary Fibs. It used to be the ABC – anyone but costello – it is now – ABT anyone but turnbull.
If Tip decided to run for leader it would either ensure that Brenda remains or produce an even more Conservative leader – Tony Abbott?
Woo hoo, the Pope is here!
God bless the Pope!
Swan is the luckiest Treasurer he has no debt to contend with.
I hope Costello does become PM, he’ll be a great PM. For now he should stay out of the spotlight, out of sight out of mind, let Rudd and co get some dirt on them.
137
Centre Says:
July 13th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
The pope is staying down the road from where I am. Will I go and rub him out?
Nah, just give him some pigrub–marijuana
JoM
The Federal Govt. has about $50 billion worth of debt. Costello always said “no NET debt”.
Not to mention private debt.
142 JoM
No debt?
*Just* 4.something inflation? Subprime credit mess? US declining into rabid recession? An ETS to bed down, etc etc?
all tip had to do was sell $250Bn to retire $90Bn debt, a fair swag of it Treasurer Howard’s debt????
BB @ 125
“Dyno, you certainly have a patronising view of the Australian people.”
Que?
I have no doubt that what Paul Daley is reporting is true, that some Labor ministers have told him they fear Costello being elected to the Lib leadership.
If I was a Labor minister, I’d be making exactly the same non-attributable comments to the media, in the hope they get a run.
The more leadership confusion within the Liberals, the better for Labor. Labor will pump up Costello as much as possible, to help its own cause.
Having said that, I can’t see why Costello couldn’t lead the Libs again in the future, if he wants to (I’m not sure that he does though). John Howard was written off a few times before he came back to lead the Coalition into power. Menzies came back after defeat and a period in the wilderness.
When a party tries a succession of leaders, without success, it’s natural they’d fall back on someone with eperience. Labor kept doing it with Beazley.
Antonio @ 147,
All of what you say makes sense.
And, of course, Costello doesn’t really want the job of Opposition Leader – that’s why he made his statement on 25 November.
But if he thought he could be PM – sure, it’s conceivable that he could give it a go.
#148
Yes, and if Costello doesn’t announce his departure from politics before the end of this year, you can be sure he hasn’t ruled out being drafted back into the leadership. He’ll be keen to give the impression that he doesn’t want it, that he’d only do it for the good of the party. He’d probably wait till Turnbull was tried and failed, before being drafted. As others have pointed out, the Libs can still win the next election if the economy goes into recession, which is not entirely out of the question, irrespective of how Labor runs it.
Still, though, I think Costello is probably just hanging in to finish his autobiography, then will bail out. He’s probably enjoying seeing his family more.
I had to copy ‘n paste this one from the Cyprus Sunday Mail.
The DOWNER is mentioned here.
Christofias tight-lipped over Downer’s appointment
By Alexia Saoulli
UN Secretary-general special adviser on the Cyprus problem, Alexander Downer, has an auxiliary role to play in the Cyprus issue, President Demetris Christofias said yesterday.
Commenting on Downer’s appointment, which was announced on Friday, at Larnaca airport before his departure for Paris where he will participate at the EU summit for the Mediterranean, Christofias said that the former Australian Minister of Foreign Affairs would be judged by his actions.
He said Secretary-general Ban Ki-Moon’s intentions were well known, and added that each and every one “will be judged by his action and his productivity”.
Furthermore Christofias expressed the belief that the UN and its officials could play a positive role in the joint efforts towards a Cyprus settlement based on the Security Council resolutions.
The president added that the Greek Cypriot side would evaluate the progress or work being done by the technical committees and working groups ahead of his July 25 meeting with Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat. During the meeting he would express the Greek Cypriot side’s estimation and opinion on the matter, he added.
This month’s meeting is the fourth since Christofias’ election in February. It is a review of the progress achieved at discussions between Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot experts on various aspects of the Cyprus question, including territory, governance, the economy and property. The leaders will decide whether direct negotiations between them can begin.
Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2008
Not sure we can draw parallels between Costello and Howard/Menzies. He was never a leader. But he was a significant figure in a Government that was rejected because the voting public perceived it had no vision for Australia’s future. So how could he present himself as the one to lead the Libs to future success?
As others have pointed out, the Libs can still win the next election if the economy goes into recession,
I have serious doubts about that, especially if Costello is leader. I have no doubt that, after getting into government and being able to do some dirt digging, Labor has a trunk full of solid political sticks to whack Costello with repeatedly, including the biggie, SerfChoices. Costello is a not a good performer when he does not have the considerable advantage of government and a compliant speaker.
Costello has way too much baggage, and I do not think Oz voters are going to forget it in a hurry.
John ofMelbourne
Costello’s great achievement was to move a lot of government funding from debt to equity. It was Keating who opened up the economy, Howard didn’t have the backbone to run with Campbell inquiry recommendation, Keating did.
ruawake
Both government have stated that they want to keep the government bond market reasonable liquid, can’t do that if you don’t have debt. That is why on one hand we have government bonds and on the other future funds ( I wonder if anyone will ever call them sovereign funds cause that is what they are) . The bond market is alive but no net debt.
One fascinating point, the 10 year bond rate for Australian and US treasury bonds is now about the same. I guess US treasury paper isn’t what it used to be.
Just Me Says:
July 13th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
The sad truth is if you need changes to get the economy moving you don’t put a Liberal government in.
Antonio 147
I thought too that the Labor Ministers referred to may have been trying to destabilize the leadership issue in the Libs by their comments about Costello. However it is a little vague seeing as we do not really know who they are and whether or not the comments are authentic.
It is of course technically true that Costello can still make a comeback and lead the Libs. In fact that is true for anyone and others have done it before as has been pointed out. But Costello has shown little inclination to do the hard yards to become leader, and in fact refused when it was virtually offerred to him after the last election. To be even the Leader of the Opposition is a great honour and people cannot normally choose the timing themselves. One must grasp the opportunity when offered as it will probably only legitimatey come once in a lifetime, if at all. No, Costello lacks the heart for the job.
It is not necessarily the case that if a recession comes, the people will blame the Gov’t. I think the deceit of the Howard years woke enough people up and many obtained a more mature judgement. Do not under estimate the people.
Glenn Milne reporting from the sinking ship
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24013982-7583,00.html
“On Thursday last week my old and esteemed mate, Tom Switzer, who used to edit this page and who now works for Brendan Nelson as his international affairs adviser, offered up an opinion piece under Nelson’s name for the paper on the subject of climate change.”
Is poison dwarf saying that Switzer wrote Nelson’s article for him? that aint a good look.
CJ
Milne does say later that Nelson wrote the piece but the Milne article is interesting.
In one spot he says
“It was a question on which outraged and confused Liberal MPs SMSed me all week.”
And then at the end of the article
“if I reported claims in a new book that Julia Gillard had been Kevin Rudd’s preferred choice as treasurer I would not be dealt with again by the Government.”
Why on earth would the government have any dealings with him when he is so clearly deeply in the liberal camp?
Yes, more moronic ramblings from Milne
Milne:
Well, he bragged that he’d put this direct to illard on Saturday and that she denied it vehemently. So I guess the “most senior elected office holder” could be La Rouge herself.
The way this idiot, Milne, conducts himself both on Insiders and in his various columns around the Murdoch papers would have had him already declared persona non grata, long before these shenanigans came to light. The sniggers, the unfunny jokes, the outright made-up stories, the nastiness and the slanders are disgraceful. Last weeks effort – Rudd’s “refusal” to say pay for the running of the Lodge in response to Milne concocted questions – was actually worse than the one last year about Rudd being ejected from the strip club for disorderly, drunken behavior (a story which was never repeated, nor retracted).
Not only is the current story about who Rudd wanted to be Treasurer monumentally irrelevant (in that it discusses the events of a year ago surrounding issues which are now settled), it’s another example of Milne’s personal view of himself as martyr.. except that his “martyrdom” is totally phoney.
We could see it in the intoxicated swing he took at Stephen Mayne at the Walkleys, because he’d been slagged off by Mayne. And we see it repeatedly in the irrelevant fairy tales, dreamed up out of his own self-obsessed mind that he prints as “News”. Milne likes to annoy, so that he has an excuse for people thinking he’s a drip.
Milne loves the concept of himself as an insider (lower case “i”). Except the tent he’s inside of is the wrong tent. He wanted to be next to the king, but he’s ended up with the camels. People laugh at him, chip him about the Walkleys, tell him he’s irrelevant, make comments about his size (contrasted with his ego) and generally treat him as a laughing stock.
This just makes him keener to irritate, like the small schoolboy in the playground who dares the bully to hit him. As soon as the blow is produced, setting the little kid on his arse, he has a chance to cry and whinge that nobody likes him because he tells the truth. He’s turned himself into a martyr to explain his unpopularity, to cover the fact that nobody liked him, or respected him in the first place.
I think we’re seeing the playing out of a slow-burn meltdown of Milne’s mind here. He styles himself as the flashy dressing, natty, savvy political shrewdie. Yet his columns, one by one, are trash. He’s having no effect on the national political discourse except to draw attention to his own public deterioration as a human being. If he wasn’t such a hateful litte so-and-so, I’d feel sorry for him.
Not that I care about the story, per se, but the front page of the Daily Telegraph today is a shining example of that rag’s total and complete disconnect from any form of reality in this (or any other) universe.
Their second lead story on the on-line front page reads thus:
Click on the link and the story linked is this:
Ah, the blockquotes should have been closed after “about it”.
A very positive article about Rudd’s foreign affairs efforts so far
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/rudd-steps-out-into-the-world-with-elan/2008/07/13/1215887445513.html
Rudd has probably conducted the most bumbling and incompetent foreign policy of any PM since the post war era. Quite amusing as this area was supposed to be one of his main strengths.
There are those that disagree with that assessment A-C.
From the link in Dario’s post…….
Now lets critique this against the previous administration…….
I think PM Rudd is doing a fine job. Just because the media or Opposition politicians disagree with how PM Rudd is performing doesn’t mean their assessment is correct.
The opposition can’t make up their minds what they believe until they consult Crosby Textor to make sure its popular with the electorate.
What utter shyte
Rudd has probably conducted the most bumbling and incompetent foreign policy of any PM since the post war era.
Delusional partisan nonsense.
Dario
SNAP!
Yeah, he should make a few threats about pre-emptive strikes so as our near neighbours sit up and take notice. That certainly worked well for Coward and his cronies didn’t it?
162 A-C – this coming from the “expert in unbiased comment” of course – NOT.
Who is minding the Opposition while Brendan is on leave? Oh, that’s right, no one gives a toss.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/14/2302634.htm
“Who is minding the Opposition while Brendan is on leave? Oh, that’s right, no one gives a toss.”
Correct. It looks like he’s been told to disappear so that Allbull, Hunt and Bishop can handle the questions relating to this week’s release of the discussion paper on emissions trading. Nelson has dug a big hole for himself and it’s about time he helped his party out by asking for it to be filled in with him still inside.
The Gods must be crazy?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/populate-or-perish-pell/2008/07/14/1215887502895.html
Interesting to see that Sydney’s resident religeous fundamentalist, roman style, has attempted to destroy the last vestige of moral credibility for his employer by saying that we must “populate or perish”. Truly a man of his (grandfather’s) times. I guess someone has to look after all those ageing priests in their retirement.
Iemma deserves all the rotten tomatoes that come his way over World Youth Brainwashing Day. State money for a personal religeous recruiting drive. This only proves that as soon as you give credibility to fundamentalists, they simply use the chance to push their own crazy world view.
I know at this point I am supposed to make some PC remark about respecting people’s religeous beliefs. But I am an atheist and prefer the Dawkins approach.
From the ABC news:
“…Cardinal Pell would not commit to a broad apology to sex abuse victims when questioned today….
Cardinal Pell told reporters: “We’re keen to make a very difficult situation better [but] it is very hard to know how to do it.”
Hmmm. It seems to me that a good start would be to be honest, up-front and supportive with those who have suffered abuse. Pell and Hollingworth (although they played for different teams in the same competition) have shown where they stand on these matters. They try and sweep the problem under the carpet and if that fails they try to make the complainant feel responsible for their situation.
I practise Christian values more honestly than either of them and I am an atheist.
Steve K
Exactly. Regarding sexual abuse by priests, Pell said it was a “local issue”. Yet it has always seemed to me remarkable that the catholic approach to dealing with this problem (keep it quiet/pay off victims/move the offending priest on without publicity) was the same in every english speaking country where it was reported – USA, Ireland, Australia, UK and Canada to name a few. If you didn’t know better you would think it was an official policy. Given the conformist and bureaucratic style of the catholic church, does anyone seriously think it wasn’t policy? All those bishops came up with the same cowardly response independantly? The fact that none ever spoke out against it was indicative of the tight control exercised under JPII.
Of course, there is no need to remind readers who was the enforcer of catholic church policy at the time… a man named Ratzinger. No wonder he wants to apologise. I wonder if he will apologise for organising the cover up?
The God haters are out in force again with their never ending faulting of religion. Time for a bit of perspective.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24007121-16741,00.html
GG
You can’t hate a non-existant object. Back to logic class with you
However I do have something approaching contempt for those hypocrits who use religeon to justify their own selfish actions, while holding a smug air of moral superiority. That includes a very high percentage of religeous leaders. I say that from experience, having seen how the catholic church perates from the inside. Finding money to pay for a lot of aged priests in their retirements really was one of their biggest fears. So much for doing good in the world.
BB @ 159
Poison Dwarf just has to have a “stunt” for the sunday papers. There is regular pattern of this. He does the same whenever he can but most sundays you can rely on muck racking – mainly aimed at labor.
Cassidy should never have allowed him a forum after his assault on steven maine. Nor should he be still appearing on the show.
He is a low life yet the abc gives him a leg up. Same with the toad.
175
Greensborough Growler
Who wrote that piece? It’s as biased as any I’ve read.
BTW it’s not god haters at work – it’s often the work of people who are opposed to the spiritual and emotional (and sometimes financial) rip offs that the church carries out each and every day. If JC were to walk this land he’d have more of a problem with the Pell’s, Hollingworth’s and Co than the work of Lateline.
Socrates -
an old saying was – that the missionaries went to PNG to do good. But they did very well…..
I thought the pope was infallible. How does Pell explain his position on climate change when the infallible one had this to say to on the subject yesterday – “We have to give impulse to rediscovering our responsibility and to finding an ethical way to change our way of life.”
Pell’s position? “Sydney Catholic Archbishop George Pell says his scepticism towards climate change is not incompatible with the Pope’s decision to set the issue as the theme for his visit to Australia.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/14/2303151.htm
Before anyone tries to explain Pell’s difference of opinion with the pope’s let me put mine forward.
Pell was a climate change sceptic as he wanted to support the Howard government position as it suits the catholic church to have a conservative government in power especially when they provide bucket loads of tax payer money to the church through schools and hospitals. The rodent knew this and was up to his eye balls in the con job.
Socrates, Steve K, et al,
I also style myself as an athiest with a strong set of moral values (’Christian’ or otherwise). In my mind moralism and atheism have a mutual attraction.
Which brings me to the tosh that was printed as an editorial in the Weekend Oz. I won’t honour it by adding a link, but you can find it on lard-*rsed Landeryou’s dog blog if you scroll down and grope around his nether regions.
It does not become any media organisation when, to justify its supposedly superior moral world view, it first resorts to attacking its commercial rivals and engages in puerile name-calling. It proves the baselessness of its original claim. But when dear old aunty ABC is also attacked, that’s when my hackles are aroused. (At my age, dear bloggers, not much else ever gets aroused.)
The “inconvenient truth” about reporting the role of the church(es) in covering up the sexual abuses of its priests simply can’t be deferred to a more suitable time because it makes those who defer complicit in the original sin. Carpe Diem!
I always thought the ‘priestly’ role was all about Weberian typology, but apparently the Weekend Oz knows better. Me thinks that turbulent priest Tony (Becket) Abbott has a new weekend job.
Many thousands of young people visiting our largest city celebrating and rejoicing in their love of God is a great endorsement of the religious life. You don’t seem very happy in your cynical atheistic world. Hopefully, the light of Jesus will shine on you one day and provide you some real meaning to your life.
Ross,
You sad, sad person.
BTW I posted the editorial at 175.
I agree with GG – let the kids have their fun, it is important to them. It is also basically irrelevant to most of the other 4.2 million people who inhabit Sydney.
…other than forking out over a million bucks of taxpayers funds for it of course
sorry, that should be 100 million bucks
Well GG, take a walk through some slums in Manilla before you wax too lyrical about the “joys of the religeous life”. If you want to own the belief, you also have to own the consequences.
For that matter, even though WYD is supposed to “celebrate all faiths”, I’d be amused to see the young jump-for-jesus brigade try to take a walk through Islamabad or Mecca while proclaiming their faith. Then we’d see the extent of gods love as practised by the faithful.
What’s wrong with faulting religion? We live in a liberal democracy, everyone is entitled to fault anything they want. In liberal democracies there is absolutely no restraint on what people are allowed to think (the existence of numerous contradictory religions is proof of that). You employ your liberal right to believe – and in fact express – something when you have a go at “God haters” (a statement I consider an oxymoron), but unfortunately you seem unwilling to afford the same right to others who wish to criticise religion. Why do you want a right that you are unwilling to let others have? That is illiberal.
Why should religion receive special treatment that isn’t afforded to people who pursue other beliefs? Liberalism is foundational to our political system. Other countries like Iran make religion foundational, to the exclusion of liberalism. In liberal countries, everybody is free to pursue whatever beliefs they want, be they religious or other wise. However freedom of religion is a right that descends from liberalism; liberalism doesn’t descend from religion.
This is the big mistake Paul Kelly made in his gaga article on the weekend, he seems to assume – like the Pope – that morality has a direct religious origin. But this is untrue, people can do good things whether they believe in God, Gods, or no God. It is sad that seemingly intelligent people can make the mistake of a first year philosophy student.
The fact religion descends from liberalism is obvious. If a religous beleif ever conflicts with a law, the law wins, because it is implemented based on the democratic will of the people, not because of religious doctrine or authority. The High Court stated this in the (infamous) 1983 ‘Scientology case’:
“… the area of legal immunity marked out by the concept of religion cannot extend to all conduct in which a person may engage in giving effect to his faith in the supernatural. The freedom to act in accordance with one’s religious beliefs is not as inviolate as the freedom to believe, for general laws to preserve and protect society are not defeated by a plea of religious obligation to breach them.” http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/1983/40.html
If you want to own the belief, you also have to own the consequences.
Yup.
And as for populate or perish, coming from a celebate, there is a kind of irony in that. Get thee forth and do your bit, Mr Pell.
This land already has enough trouble supporting 21 million in the lifestyle to which we have become accustomed, where are the resources for another 10, 20, 30, whatever million going to come from, especially if that leaves less for us to sell overseas to pay our import debts? Even if we double our population and none of our neighbours add any at all, we will still be WAY behind Indonesia, China, etc. So what is the point of massive population increase, how does it benefit us?
Out of touch with reality much, your eminence?
celebate = celibate
GG 184, you are sounding triumphalist.
As a product of western education I was encouraged to think independently and to nurture enquiring minds in my own children. You say “the light of Jesus”; I just say the sun. You say spiritualism; I just say nature. Whatever.
I don’t know what is cynical or sad about that. In fact, GG, I really am quite a cheerful fellow.
Hello Grinch!
You know my views on the fairytale that is religion – Dawkins for me too. But at least you are still plugging away. Personally I think WYD is a huge conspiracy on the part of the Church to get thousands of horny (uncontracepted, anti-abortionist) little teenagers in one place so the inevitable will happen (Catholic girl here!) so they can try and breed themselves the next generation of Catholics before they completely disappear.
Ross @ 192, you’re cheerful and you don’t believe in god?
I’m afraid that doesn’t make sense. It is the conviction of the transcendental philosophers who lead the catholic church, for example, that any ungodly joy claimed by sad, sad, godless creatures such as yourself is, by definition invalid.
Please take GG seriously when he bemoans “haters” at 2.45pm and then expresses his contempt for you at 3.31pm … he clearly knows The Way.
Dario
The State Govt. kicked in $86 million – the Catholic Church $150 Million. The Sydney Chamber of Commerce estimates a direct benefit of $250 million.
Now back to my point, surely it is a good thing to see a hundred thousand kids enjoying themselves and doing something they consider to be important?
It will all be forgotten in a couple of weeks – but the kids will tell their family and friends what a great time they had in Sydney.
Better than “Where the bloody hell are you”
I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed this hypocrisy.
IW@194.
Well said, Westy. To put it in simple terms, I don’t need to follow any ‘light of Jesus’. I find the dogmas, taboos and restrictions of organised religions utterly pointless and contradictory. Indeed, I think it’s sad that various religions confine their adherents within certain no-go areas. No such demarcation disputes with me.
However, I acknowledge that many people do need spiritual guidance. I have no problem with that for mine is a mild athiesm.
For a militant atheistic perspective, may I paraphrase the words of Phillip Adams: “Religion may be eager to forgive me for my sins, but I will never forgive religion for its sins throughout history.” He has a point – albeit a dogmatic one.
Newspoll tomorrow.
Who gives a rats about religion – if you are into it great. If you are not great.
I did not think this was Theology Bludger.
GG,
My family are all baptised Catholics, and my father was a student at one of the most notorious schools in Adelaide for abuse. He still finds it hard to talk about his childhood and only recently tried to return to his school for the first time since he left, and froze up as he tried to go through the gates. Don’t abuse people for being God-haters because they’re calling the church on its horrific history of abuse and cover-ups. I’m sure I speak for others when I say that I have no problem with Catholics (particularly since my family are all Catholics), but I have a passionate hatred against the church itself.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I’d also like to respond to another theme of both GGs and the Oz – that this is all just a case of differing beliefs and hence the criticism of WTF day is somehow unfair. Nonsense. I don’t go around seeking government funds to promote atheism. Nor do I attempt to lobby governments for laws to force others to obey atheist principles. The real problem with religeous fundamentalists is not that they are living their own lives in a delusion, but that they want to force the rest of us to follow suit. They don’t have the right to do that.
And to think that George Pell was in the running (albeit at long odds) to be the Pope!
ruawake @ 192
In an earlier comment in this thread (35), you cited the following example of the rarely reported “little things” the government is doing:
“The Federal Government will spend $5 million upgrading a breastfeeding advice hotline to a 24-hour toll-free service.
The funding was part of an election promise to improve breastfeeding support services for mothers.”
According to the ABC, the federal government is spending $22 million on WYD. Just think of all the little things that that could be going towards (as opposed to paying off the Australian Jockey Club).
This is why it is political.
And on the Sydney Chamber of Commerce’s estimate of “a direct benefit of $250″, newmatilda.com points out that the “Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras brings a comparable number of visitors [as predicted for WYD] and an estimated $45 million into New South Wales, but attracts zero funding from either the State or Federal Governments.”
This is why I give a rats.
IW
27 Mar 2008 and New Matilda gets its figures wrong – not unusual. Does the Mardi Gras with its 10,000 particpants (majority locals) compare? No.
I do find it very very odd about Cardinal Pell’s comment that he is climate change skeptic and open to any evidence. Yet, he is a card carrying number 1 believer of the existence of god, virgin birth, son of god, resurrection, second coming etc. did he ask for evidence? just wondering.
Mardi Gras happens every year, not just once. A large fraction of participants and spectators are not local, it is one of the main events on the international gay calendar.
#193, Ms jen, how is the one woman horse riding going?
Just Me
How large a fraction?
ruawake
Are you able to contradict them (New Matilda)?
And you’re being mighty disingenuous with your reduction of the Mardi Gras’ crowd to 10,000 “participants.” The ABC reports that 300,000 spectators were involved. Is their any basis to your ignorance of the spectator count at this event when it comes to overall economic benefit? Anyway, the key statistic is surely the $45 million bucks it is claimed to have earned.
IW
I was quoting the figures from the Mardi Gras site – New Matilta quotes a cost of $150 Million it is closer to $240 million.
How many spectators are there going to be at the mass in Randwick?
ruawake
“Event organisers expect up to 225,000 officially registered Pilgrims to visit Sydney.
Pilgrims from around the world will attend WYD08, many in pre-arranged regional groups. Up to 125,000 international visitors are expected. Several events will draw crowds of over 300,000.”
From a NSW government website.
That’s either the same or less than the Mardi Gras count (an event which attracts similar numbers every year – as Just Me pointed out). There appears to be an inconsistency in any funding justification based on economic benefit alone.
Apologies: “over 300,000″ is clearly not the same as 300,000. But this does appear to be the general estimate based on the little bit of surfing I’ve done.
IW
Every Tyke in Australia will be headed for Randwick if they can make it. How many million people were at the last WYD papal mass?
Jen,
Go back to your Stalinist island of love. There is real debate here and you might get your feeling’s hurt.
Jen’s post at 193 is no joke, it’s nearly on the money.
The ONLY reason the catholic church preaches populate or perish is because they don’t believe in contraception.
Socrates,
I didn’t know the slums of Manilla or anywhere ele for that matter were created by religion. Perhaps you can enlighten us all.
Shows On,
You of course ignored the “never ending” part of my post which is a little dishonest, but I forgive you. The point is that we have had the same tripe served up day after day on Your ABC and the “broadloids” (love the word) regarding the failings of the Catholic Church. No mention of the good that is done by the Church and its people or an attempt to understand how person’s relationship with God is an individual thing. Not saying that bad things didn’t happen. Just that the practitioners may have been wrong but, the underlying principles and beliefs are as relevant to day as they ever were.
Al,
The Church in the sense you are using it, is an inanimate object. It is pointless hating the Church as it is in loving material things. They will never respond. Rather, just think of the people.
Greensborough Growler @ 170 – So Nelson works 24 hours a day? So much for the constant criticism that Kevin is overdoing it!
But you have to wonder just what Nelson is doing during all those hours. It’s obviously not related to being the Opp Leader or he’d be doing much better at it than he is. Perhaps the rumour I’m starting about him moonlighting in a Chinese laundry in Haymarket is true!
Given the absolute dogs breakfast he made in Defence (with a lot of help from his predecessors) I can only assume he worked around the clock there too.
“…just think of the people.”
No thanks. Each time I think of the people I get visions of Pell and Hollingworth.
Hi Finns-
galloping away there!
Well GG
-the olive branch was offered, so you can go do what the Catholic kiddies are about to do.
Cheerio.
Every catholic tyke, despite the event’s generic branding. Look, I don’t begrudge thousands of kids getting together and sharing their faith. In fact, I’m with you in believing it’s a fun and spiritually nourishing thing for them to be doing. I might also say that a lot of projection appears to be happening at the moment. People who are bitter about the catholic church – or Christianity in general – are attacking WYD merely because it’s a high profile symbol of this institution.
The water gets murky, however, when the question of funding is raised. Let’s assume the $45 million figure is correct for this year’s Mardi Gras. Then using the multiplier s=(86+22)/250, this event ought to have received $45s=$19.44m in public support. Instead, it received $0. (I admit to being a little crude with my analysis here.)
Non-Christians (indeed, non-catholics) are entitled to know on what basis (if not economic) events such as WYD get assisted to the tune of $108m yet, on a standardised comparison, events such as the Mardi Gras get zip.
Sorry. My post at 219 was a response to ruawake at 212.
A picture that sinks a thousand words?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/07/13/2008-07-13_new_yorker_mags_satire_cover_draws_team_.html
Shows On and Ross,
I am sorry if you conclude that my 184 was showing contempt as that was not my intention.
Socrates @ 188 – why don’t you take a walk through a slum, take the hand of Jackie pullinger as she introduces you to her freinds. Read the story in the link then come back here and explain to me why you denigrate this person because she is a christian. If you read her story, especially her views on christians, then you can explain why you group all christians together and run them down.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/14/MNIKT2BIA.DTL&type=printable
I think Steve K @ 178 is near the truth with his last sentence, although he wants to condemn all people in the church as well. I assume that includes the lady in the story gentlemen??
Tom.
Lets look at other religions – the Federal Govt. will spend $60 million to try and secure the Soccer World Cup.
Just out of interest GG, what was your intention? In describing Ross as a “sad, sad person”, were you attempting to bring to his attention – in an entirely compassionate manner, of course – a problem he may have with melancholia?
If so, I apologise to the man above. And I must re-evaluate you.
(Wink.)
ruawake @ 224
Don’t get me started.
Steve K,
That is your issue to deal with. Why not go out and meet some practicing Catholics working in Aged Care or at St Vinnies. The easiest thing in the world is to build barriers in your mind. I can assure you that the Church is made up of a lot of good people practicing their faith and their values in a positive way.
Speaking of proper religions, tomorrow would appear to be Newspoll Tuesday, but can anyone confirm that it will also be ACNielson Tuesday?
They’re due this week.
Inner Westie,
You either proffer an apology genuinely or not at all. Adding anything else diminishes the offering.
This is irrelevant. In liberal democratic countries people can critique, analyse, mock, or make fun of something as often as they like. That is a freedom enjoyed by all. Religion has no special exemption from being made fun of.
See above. Religion can be critiqued as often as one likes, and you can complain about religion being critiqued as often as you like. Religion is not the basis of our society; liberty and democracy are. Liberty implies that people are free to think whatever they like, when they like.
Lot’s of people and organisations that do good go under-recognised, not just Churches.
The relationship between God, Gods, non-Gods and people is just an opinion, no more or less valid than any other. It may be extremely important to you, but that does not mean your view is valid for everyone else. Nor does it mean that you can stop others from believing in things that completely contradict your views.
To people who hold those beliefs maybe. But other people are free to believe other things that completely oppose your beliefs.
The principles that bind our society are liberalism and democracy. They allow people to practice religion – if they wish – in the first place. Liberalism lets people with completely divergent views coexist in the same society. Whereas before liberalism, when religion was considered the basis for social structure, conflicts concerning divergent religious views constantly resulted in wars where different groups tried to force others to adopt alternate beliefs. Liberalism put an end to such carnage by making religion a private matter.
Of course then came Darwin…
Possum,
The only proper religion your type have is “Pee from Trees”.
If it was not for Possums we would not have Marn Grook and another religion would miss out.
Shows On,
If it was irrelevant, why did you leave it out?
Have no problem with religion or its institutions being critiqued. However, I do believe there should be balance in the reporting. My point was that the ABC ran a 25 year old story every day on AM, PM and other News services for a number of days. Was it really news after day 3 or 4. I just think there was an anti Catholic agenda run on this particular story by certain journalists. You may disagree.
The discussion about Liberty and Freedom always leaves out the bit about personal responsibility. To be truly free you need to have values. Everyone decides as an individual what those values are. Christian values work for me.
227
Greeensborough Growler
Tell me about the church leaders. Of course there are plenty of decent people at the coal face. I’m at the coal face too on a regular basis but without the banner of organised religion. Tell me about the Pells and Hollingworths of the world.
What’s with dragging the young guys body around the place? Did the Pope watch “A Weekend At Bernies”?
Steve K,
Most of the people I know involved with good works are there because that is where their personal vocation has lead them. Do they do it “with a banner of organised religion”. Hardly.
You need to get over your leader/lead view of the world. We all eat, sleep, shit and shave. Pell and Hollingworth are people first.
This is getting about as poisonous a discourse as I care to read.
I’m going to hell in my own way and I’ll argue about whether it exists when get there.
Meanwhile, I’ll return here when the air clears, hopefully when newspoll is revealed later tonight.
Pier Giorgio Frassati died in 1925 but his cadaver has a certain aroma amongst impressionable catholic youth. (Sorry, “aura”.)
Because I didn’t realise I would have to explain it to you.
If someone has been abused they have a right to seek justice and compensation. I couldn’t care less when the crime was committed. Waiting for time to pass doesn’t make abuse OK.
Belief in liberalism is a moral value. I concede that it isn’t a religious value, but that is my point. It is more important than religious values, because it is what modern democratic societies are based on.
Certainly many good people are religious, but it does not follow that to be a good person you must be religious. If religious people accepted that principle there would be a lot less conflict in the world. After all, no one has the right to force anyone to believe in something they don’t agree with. People who aren’t religious just want it acknowledged that one can be morally good, without having to accept religion. This is of course obvious, the Red Cross is one of the biggest charities in the world, and it is a secular organisation. Same goes for Drs without Borders.
Sadly too many religious leaders believe the opposite. In the last few days the Pope, Cardinal Pell, and many in the commentariet have made the first year philosophy student howler of directly equating religion with morality.
236
Greeensborough Growler
That’s an “I don’t want to talk about it” statement as I’ve ever heard.
There are some fantastic christian and some fantastic non christian people in the world.
In my personal opinion however, I reckon religion has probably done more harm than good.
I’ll go out on this subject by saying “I decide how to live my life and the way I choose to live it!”
Oh, and also, I’ll go where all the naughty girls go.
Shows On,
This can’t go much further. But, you quoted me out of context by ignoring (liberally under quoting) the “never ending” part of my quote. I think that is a fair point.
You also ignore or fail to address the repetitive nature of the story on the ABC as I described.
Now, where did those Liberal Values come from?
Oh, and also, I’ll go where all the naughty girls go.
Hallelujah, brother.
Steve K,
Actually, I answered you very clearly and directly.
As I said earlier, you are the one with a problem with the hierarchy. You deal with it as best you can.
Cheers.
{Oh, and also, I’ll go where all the naughty girls go.}
What’s that old saying? “When she was good she was good, but when she was naughty, she was very good!
Just a word or two from someone watching some one else close, die. We were all brought up Catholics, as in the Roman sort. She and husband converted to being Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of the more nuts belief systems, in my view. However, it sustains her and him through the end of life experience. Who am I to judge? Who are any of us to judge what sustains people through life’s hard times?
However, if any one from the religious beliefs, of any sort, want to influence political decision making or policy formation, they can bugger off. Oddly, the J.W.s don’t vote.
Of course, I realise the religious people will attempt to influence policy.
244
Greeensborough Growler
You said “So the church leaders “…all eat, sleep, shit and shave. Pell and Hollingworth are people first.”
Hmmm. So despite this you still support you statement in 244 i.e. “The God haters are out in force again with their never ending faulting of religion. Time for a bit of perspective.”
Mate, you have a serious contradiction that I think should be dealt with though I’m confident you’ll continue to ignore it – but that’s your issue not mine.
Greeensborough Growler Says:
July 14th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
True; but sadly they are not the Pope, or Pell, they are the normal everyday catholics that ignore the ramblings of old men.
Come on carting a corps around; how sick does it get.
Sorry post 248 was posted while in my religious zeal mode, I just can’t help marching for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
He just speak to me.
All liberal philosophies share in common the basic proposition that all people have the same moral worth because they are all born equal. This moral equivalence principle means that all people should be afforded the same rights. In this regard, liberalism is an argument for universal human rights.
This explains why liberalism opposed monarchical and totalitarian systems of Government as well as the slave trade. Those systems assume that some people are of greater moral worth than others.
The other basic tenant of liberalism is that people are free to make their own determination of what they consider to be a good life. They can’t have decisions of worth made for them as in socialism.
The values inherent in liberalism have philosophical origins, but not supernatural origins. This makes sense, because liberalism was derived in opposition to theocratic systems of government.
ShowsOn @ 250
Elegantly put. Thanks.
I’ve heard it said recently that ‘I respect a fellows religious views in much the same way as I respect his view that his wife is the most beautiful woman in the world and all his children are wonderfully talented”
ShowsOn, Tell me do you believe any values are fundamental or is everything relativism for you?
You seem to have confused the 2 concepts. I can certainly agree all people should be afforded the same fundamental rights (such as the right to shelter and sustenance) but you seem to apply this concept in a relativistic sense ie that all points of view/rights are equally relevant.
252
Philmour
Originally from H.L. Mencken, if I recall correctly.
Is it just me or were Pell’s comments inherently racist? “No Western country is producing enough babies to keep the population stable, no Western country,” by ‘West’ I read white (and by white I read predominantly Christian).
The only reason someone would see this a such a pressing problem would be a fear of godless brown skinned hordes… this is The Bulletin circa 1890’s stuff.
Wouldn’t a kind hearted Christian such as Pell see well-off underpopulated Western countries as a destination/opportunity for migrants from overpopulated less well-to-do countries. You know, those supposed Christian values such as charity, combating poverty and loving you fellow man (sorry ladies) … or should I be more concerned with fags & fetuses?
Actually I think its just you Nate Plisken.
Just Me,
you’re right,thanks…it works for me!
GG 215 and 234
First regarding Manila slums: the cause is overpopulation, which is in turn caused by an absurd lack of birth control in an overwhelmingly catholic country, where local church leaders have significant influence on the government. Clear enough? Think back to the vatican’s insidious blocking role in the world population conference in the 1990s and the connection becomes clearer. My remark wasn’t meant to be confined to Manila: it applies to poor overpopulated countries all over the world. Many of those countries are catholic; almost all are highly religeous.
As for the good some people who are catholic do, I agree it is (mostly) good. When I was catholic I helped with St Vincent de Paul too. I still help them. But one of the great lies of religeous leaders is to take credit for the good that religeous people do, while using it to deflect criticism for the harm their hierarchy does. I have seen that hierarchy in action from the inside and it is not pretty – primarily focused on what most governments are focused on: money and power. Paying for the retirement of ageing priests was the number one concern I observed. It converted me to an atheist.
I do not mean to denigrate all religeous people, especially at the grass roots level. But I think most of them are religeous because they try to be good people and think religeon is part of that; they are not good because they are religeous. As for the leaders, their ends justifies their means, and if you believe you have the ultimate end, you believe you are justified in using any means. The hypocracy is the worst of all; No matter how good an engineer I may become, I doubt I will ever match the wine collection I saw in one bishop’s house. Vow of poverty anyone? Lets just settle for tax exempt status.
255 Nate
Yes I agree: “why aren’t we having as many babies as those brown people who might take us over” seemed to be the subtext. Pell’s remark annoyed me at so many levels I didn’t list them all.
Socrates,
Presumably one can obtain condoms in Manilla? The Church has the right to preach its views on these issues just as others are free to advocate an alternative view.
You seem to assume one view is out of bounds. Secondly surely we all have free will as to what we choose to believe? Presumably fornicators in Manilla make their own choices on these issues.
As for your second point, the hierachy. Paying for retirement of aging priests was the number one concern. Whilst I might dispute your characterisation, please explain how an organisation seeking to pay for those it has an obligation to is in some way improper? Not unlike an employer in a defined benefit fund struggling to make payments for super or a pension in my book.
Thirdly the tired chestnut of the ends justifies the mean and wine collections. If you think about it priests have or should have no heirs and have no need of material possessions to “pass on” so I doubt very much the charge of venality can be made to stick. At least provide an example to justify your ends justify the means charge.
I’ll put a question to you, why is that people who have never set foot in a church or at the very least have seen many years pass since they did feel qualified to pass judgement and sentence on the church?
Presumably fornicators in Manilla make their own choices on these issues.
That is so unrealistic and self-righteous, I am trouble believing you genuinely believe it.
“priests have or should have no heirs”
just victims?
Oh so witty thomarse,
Some people in politics are w.nkers doesnt mean they all are.
One common theme with the lapsed Catholics and others on this thread is how they blame the Church or its hierarchy for all their personal dissatisfaction and guilt they feel. There is absolutely no self reflection of the fact that it is they who have changed and not the Church or the Church’s ideology. Well, I say you need to work harder and learn that the love of God is not and never will be an equal relationship. We are here to serve his will.
Some may claim acquired wisdom, others will use the Churchs failings as justification. But ultimately, it is you who have moved away from the Church and not vice versa.
Guys and gals – a few days ago I posted a little paradox on idiots.
You’re attempting the impossible.
You either learn to think for yourself, or you don’t.
55/45
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24021006-601,00.html
but i thought the honeymoon was over, john howard said so
the political death of brendan nelson has been so drawn out, just get rid of him already
263 EstJ
Nah, just let priests marry, no reason in dogma Catlick priests can’t marry.
Catlick church should also ordain women
Else the church will retreat rapidly in Western countries
267
On honeymoons:
My parents came to this country on their honeymoon on one of those ’round Australia bus tours (back in the day). They like the place so much they didn’t go home (you could do that back in the day too).
Pretty long honeymoon!
Nelson sticking around might be our best hope for the agenda implementation we’re heading for. It’s either that or a DD.
Nelson is 14% man
well on the bright side (for him at least) he has doubled his historic low of 7%
He’s 2% more popular than Troy Buswell and Nrenda hasn’t sniffed any chairs or snapped any bra straps that we are aware of
ESJ,
Will you be able to parlay your banning from a site where you have never posted into a glittering multi media career? (Remember the villains are always the most popular).
Is assault by looking a criminal charge?
How many ways can you say “Obama is kewl”?
Lol GG,
It’s a bit of a giggle really. I perused the “site” following your comment – a true Web first, a therapeutic community for some serious nutters.
Me I’ll just keep telling the truth as I see it. What more can I do despite the nasty personal attacks?
I see Jen and Progressive already sniffing around here, wont be long till our own Manson Family come back in their entirety – unfortunately.
ESJ, I also “perused the “site” following your comment” – the nutters already mumbling how one hand clappin’ is really not much fun and were wishing we were there!! Can I do the Showy bit in LOL!!!
GG
Why do you conservative religeous types invariably think people like me feel guilty or don’t know what the (catholic) church was like? Its as though your own inability to admit it could all just be an accident of history is intentionally maintained. Better to assume al the critics are ignorant – if they just knew the truth they’d believe! ROTFL!
As for your comments on divine wisdom – well that is very poor logic. Its a circular argument to assume some of the characteristics of what you are trying to prove exists in order to prove your belief it exists is valid! Though in a sense I don’t really blame you for that one. Since the split with science most religeons have preferred to rely on blind faith rather than reason. Rational thought in teh catholic church went out the window under Wojtyla. Some of the early theologians who were also philosophers and reached their conclusions through reason would turn in their graves. There’s no certainty that early christians even believed in an after life, or prayed for the dead, before the second century AD. But don’t mind me I’m ignorant of religeon – hopefully I jsut know what I don’t know
LOL Finns, there can be only one Showy, interesting how the flow of the Showy River is building up, I guess Charlie always felt safest in the Family compound too!
264 GG,
Interesting how many take that view with them when its time to enter the departure lounge. Quite a few come back to Mother Church “for insurance purposes” as they say.
ESJ
The problem in places like Manila is not teaching, it is systematic lobbying to stop funding of programs for sex education and birth control. Far too often the “lords supporters” prefer tactics which are distinctly secular and underhanded in their struggle for “truth”. Pell and the dodgy funding deals on WTF day is a case in point. I sometimes wonder if they believe in an afterlife any more than I do; all they want is to keep the show on the road here and now. Hence the need to brainwash new generations.
As for the wine collection I referred to; it was only meant as an example but the one I was thinking of was enjoyed by an individual and not shared with the poor.
Hmm Socrates 279,
Like most issues, the facts are more complex:
http://www.census.gov.ph/data/pressrelease/1999/press9908tx.html
Yeah it’s amazing the things people do when they are desperate.
Remember the good ole days when we discussed POLITICS in this blog *sigh*.
ESJ , FINNS & GG
so you guys ‘perused’ , all smarter of course than the barbarian , bbut maybe the custers last stand forcast may have been on the money for once , never tempted by fantasyland
Socrates
the othr way to look at your point is that in most non democratic countries , the various churchs in net terms do add to peoples lives , and the MSN highligh
the minority adverse , so a Kevin Rudd with declard beliefs has something in common with them
Tim
the ‘oz’ have run a series of anti Rudd storys using his religion to try to present him as flakey , so feel the ‘oz’ have a pro Lib agenda in bringing religion in
Newspoll thread up. Please do not carry over the religion discussion on to the new thread. Thank you.