• Roy Morgan has released a survey of 1255 respondents from face-to-face polling conducted over the past two weekends, showing the sitution unchanged in every respect from the previous poll released a fortnight ago. Labor leads 55-45 on two-party preferred, and by 45.5 per cent to 39.5 per cent on the primary vote.
• Another poll that slipped through the cracks was Newspoll’s quickie survey over the weekend of 564 respondents in Queensland, regarding attitudes to Lawrence Springborg, Mal Brough and the Coalition merger.
• To mark the demise of Channel Nine’s Sunday program, here’s a fascinating Laurie Oakes retrospective of the events of 1975 which some kind person put on YouTube, which I’m guessing dates from around 1990.
149 Comments
Gary Bruce
#388
“How odd, you go to Morgans site and that poll doesn’t show and yet the link James gives works. What is going on?”
Gary , 55% to 45% is excellent result , also hav had same problem with Morgan Polls in past Think reason is commerically based , to prevent free accress to latest Morgan Poll data for….time for others who ar paying perhaps to see On one occasion faced with this , whilst I did not had th thread James supplied today , I had (or worked out) th lqtest Morgan “poll number” , and went back into Morgons site & altered th poll nuber from Morgans previous poll that obviously was there , & then clicked & up came th new one as belied Morgons system may use those sequences
The ANZ has decided to lead the way by cutting fixed mortgage rates so the political landscape could change significantlyly from now.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/anz-lowers-fixed-mortgage-rate/2008/08/08/1218139062869.html
Morgan has become erratic is the release of their polls, it used to be consistent Fri lunchtime.
But before the election the polly bludgers often crashed the site. Maybe they are doing this now to stop the site crash, too late.
steve
ANZ may just be trying to get people to lock into fixed rates knowing the variable will be lower.
As a very wise person said to me, you cannot beat the banks on fixed rates. Fixed rates are a mugs game.
You certainly would think that the variable rate is the one people want to see reduced and no doubt that is where the argy bargy will be greatest ruawake.
Steve
With slowing activity one would expect a lower variable rate next month or in October , as forcast by many ANZ’s actions aprt from obvious profiteering on unknowing clients by fooling them th current variable vs now lower fixed gap is reality , ar uncomfortably nibbling at margins of Fed’s prior absolute control of rates (this is a nuance , but seperate cost of funds increases were not)
ANZ are lowering their fixed rate because there has been a huge drop in the number of new applications for fixed rate home loans, as you would expect with interest rates tipped to fall soon
What! What the hell is Rodente doing in Beijing?
Coconut actually looked happy and at peace. I’m sure Cossie would be so pleased to know. LOL
What about Rudd! What a statesman! The liberal supporters like Akerman, Milne and Bolt had better get used to it. He is going to be there for a very long time.
Now, you see, that’s what I can’t stand about the top-end-of-town. They pay themselves whatever they like, and they are worth nothingl.
I’m referring to Suncorp Metway. What a shocking performance by it management. They are useless. A monkey could do a much better job. Medium income earners are being ripped off with their super. They should give back their pay. I wouldn’t even give them the doll.
Centre@ 7
I think the answer is senility. Rodent thinks it’s the 2000 olympics, that he’s in Sydney and he’s still PM.
But what about Kev, walking the streets of Beijing, eating takeaway, shopping, posing for photos with the locals, stopping for chats, shaking hands and looking like he’s having a ball. How lay back and relaxed is he? Then to top it all off he gets special treatment at the big banquett for the 80 world leaders!
“Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, on the next table over, was seated beside Australia’s Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, in a sign of unusual favor to the Mandarin-speaking Australian.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSPEK12906520080808
Yes Vera, and what about Dubya? The Americans should take a good long look at our Prime Minister. They have had a clown in charge for the last 8 years.
Shades of Crocodile Dundee. “That’s not a leader, that’s a leader!” LOL
Dubya is cringeworthy material. Kev is a statesman, damn! make’s ya proud to be Aussie
Channel 9 web site doesn’t even mention Rudd
So Kev was put on the top spot on the second table – pretty good assessment of Australia’s position in the world.
Yes, all the commercial media could go on about was Princess Mary.
Can you people get a grip?! Rudd is being given favourable treatment by the Chinese because he is one of the few Western leaders who has been playing nicely with the Chinese. He is going to the Opening Ceremony, he’s talking up what a great job they are doing MONITORING the pollution and smog, he’s silent on the internet censorship and seems largely unconcerned by their human rights abuses.
China has a human rights record worse than almost any country. Why the hell are we so pleased that they like us?
Grog “So Kev was put on the top spot on the second table – pretty good assessment of Australia’s position in the world.”
But in sport , we’ll be on th number one table Grog in medels won , but maybe down list a long way with our ‘convict’ uniform
15
Diogenes Says:
“he’s silent on the internet censorship and seems largely unconcerned by their human rights abuses.”
If you are going to tell Fibs at least make sure the internet isn’t full of articles like this that make you look like a fool.
“Mr Rudd said he raised the issues of human rights, Tibet and religious and internet freedom with Premier Wen during a 45-minute meeting in Beijing.
“I said to the Chinese leadership that on questions of human rights, of religious freedom, of Tibet, of internet freedom, that these continue to be concerns, that we would continue to prosecute these concerns, both through the discussions we have just had and through the bilateral human rights dialogue which lies ahead between Australia and China,” he told reporters in Beijing.
“We agreed that these matters will be pursued further in the continuation of Australia’s bilateral human rights dialogue between Canberra and Beijing, and we believe the next round of that dialogue will be scheduled for later this year.”
http://news.smh.com.au/world/rudd-to-pursue-rights-talks-with-china-20080808-3s5r.html
Good point the USA likes us too – and we are willing to castigate Bush and the USA for the death of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq over oil but not China in the Sudan. We are willing to remonstrate over the working poor and poverty of minorities in a ‘rich’ country like the USA but not so those left behind in China, especially ethnic minorities. We are willing to be offended by the USAs cynical intervention in South America politics but not China’s intervention in Africa.
Probably because we know the USA is likely to always be a friend no matter the criticism but China is new to all this and needs to get used to being criticised thoroughly over its actions. Though criticism never changed the behavior of the USA.
However if the USA wasn’t our friend we would be happy if they did become our friend, regardless of the above.
Reality is if your are tiny and are surrounded by strangers it is good to have some big friends especially if your economic future is likely to depend on them in some large way.
As happy as some may be it is guaranteed that Rudd is under no illusion as to what China is and how it operates.
vera
I am fully aware of Rudd’s comments. And what a lecture he gave them! He even voiced “concerns” and talked about having a “dialogue”. I think he got wet piece of lettuce out and hit them with it afterwards.
China are abetting the genocide in Darfur amongst countless other atrocities which make Mugabe’s Zimbabwe look like a walk in the park.
If the Rodent was PM and kowtowing to them the way Rudd has, we’d all be bucketing him for putting pragmatism ahead of principle.
vera
That quote of Rudd’s looks suspiciously like the script of The Hollowmen from a few weeks ago.
Diogenes,
It is apparent that Kevin Rudd is laying the seeds of his future demise in his actions in so many ways. Such cynicism is breathtaking.
Thanks for the video clips William.
Interesting the bit about Hayden bringing in a responsible budget, blows the whole liberal excuse of Whitlam had to be sacked for economic mismanagement. Likewise Lynch, the deputy lib leader, later quit over land deals, but the press didn’t see this as a reason for the GG to sack Fraser or the same in later years when Howards ministers were falling like ninepins. Different standards for labor govts over lib govts.
Still recall the Pickering cartoon, the scales of justice, that showed Gough on one scale and Sinclair being loaded onto the other, following the letter writing incident, to join a heap of others associated with the whole dismissal. Kerr, Fraser, Sinclair. Lynch et al. all tainted in someway later in life, even little Johnny, very late, losing his own seat.
And Whitlam’s speech, Men and women of Australia, you have the chance to decide the future of this country. Unfortunately we got 7 years of do nothing conservatism, until Hawkeating got us moving again. Howard was worse though, 12 years of do nothing intersparsed with trying to take us back to the 50s. Now we have another labor govt to move us forward.
ESJ
How much difference does our Government’s relationship with the Chinese make to our economic ties with China? Won’t they still need our steel, coal etc? As hard nosed capitalists, won’t they just but the cheapest and best product?
Obviously we don’t want to be at each other’s throats. The Chinese and US still hate each other but are irretrievably intertwined economically now so it’s quite possible.
Diogines, I’m sorry but that’s just crap. You may want Rudd to publicly tear strips off Hu right now, but that would get Australia and human rights absolutely NOWHERE. Diplomacy my friend. Diplomacy.
Dario
I’m not asking for Rudd to tear strips off China. He could be trying a bit harder though. Diplomacy has its limitations. It’s very easy to ignore if you want to.
I agree with TP. We seem to have double standards. There are endless streams of abuse levelled at Bush and the US, quite rightly IMHO, but China seems to be a sacred cow because they don’t take criticism well.
Oh looky pooky, at least Rudd IS criticising both the US and China. Howard never dared to do anything other than ask how high they wanted him to jump.
Not sure that Howard criticised ANY foreign government, and certainly not to their face (and certainly not unless the US had done so first).
“There are endless streams of abuse levelled at Bush and the US….” By who? Rudd, our government? I don’t think so.
“……. but China seems to be a sacred cow because they don’t take criticism well.”
Ok, knowing that, our government should then do what they don’t do to the US and go for it with China? Making enemies is not a good way to bring about change, not unless you plan to fight and beat them into submission. Get real.
Also it’s hard to get too high and mighty – at least it is for me, as I just turned over my keyboard and saw “Made in China”…
So what should we use instead of diplomacy? Our F-111s?
Gary
The “endless streams of abuse” and “sacred cow” comments refer to political commentators such as those on PB, not Rudd. The leaders of quite a few democratic countries think that it is “real” to make a more robust protest.
zoom
I’m not making an argument that the Rodent would have done better. That’s why he was a rodent. I’m saying that we are giving Rudd a free ride that we would not have given Howard.
ShowsOn
I was using the term “diplomacy” as used by Dario. He suggested diplomacy rather than criticism should be used, and therefore differentiated the two.
Ahh, OK. I think diplomacy sometimes INCLUDES public criticism.
Thomas Paine
#18
WE are willing to castigate Bush and the USA for the death of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq over oil but not China in the Sudan
who is th “we” Thomas ?
ronster
You’ve gotta help me out here!! Remember the wonderful great politician Hillary Clinton calling for a boycott of the Beijing Olympics?
ShowsOn
I think the confusion arose because “diplomacy” need to be “diplomatic”.
Edward StJohn
#21
” Diogenes It is apparent that Kevin Rudd is laying the seeds of his future demise in his actions in so many ways. Such cynicism is breathtaking.”
You know very well Diogene’s coment is consistent with th anti Rudd views of Gilligan’s posters They see Rudd as NOT being a “progressive” and disengenuously softly snip at Rudd They see there oiliness phoney as a ‘progressive” , th greatest of all time , th antithesus of Rudd Clearly Diogenes got ship wrecked and end up there , escaped , but had partial indoctrination
But there is no excuse for you ESJ ! You’ve jumped in here on Olmypic opening Cermony night , when our Sir Kevin is on th world stage , and Vera at #17 clearly shows Sir Kevin DID stand up for principal , he didn’t need to bring our 3 F11’s as suport
Precisely
ronster
Do you recognise this statement? It was made by Hillary Clinton. Do you support it or not? Do you back Rudd or Hillary? Time to make a choice.
Went so well for her too didn’t it
We=some
My point was that we have the necessity of being ‘friends’ with the likes of China, the USA because the health of our economy is linked to them in some large part.
But I tend to support Rudd’s approach, and he ought to know if anyone does. He will get further with the Chinese through diplomacy than castigating them face to face in public which will have an opposite effect. I recall the Chinese guy at the UN? not long ago basically told the USA to go f** itself over something they said about Chinese military increases.
The Chinese seem extremely sensitive to criticism, maybe something cultural behind that or maybe they think if they make a big enough tantrum people will be too scared to say too much too loud. I leave it up to the experts to deal with.
Historically though the average person in China has never had it good and have always been exploited and abused in one way or another.
Dario
I followed “his oiliness” but Hillary’s stand on China was one of the few times she was supported by the US PBers.
I’m trying to wedge Ron as an example of someone who supports Sir Kevin and all his policies, but who has previously supported a stronger stance on China’s deplorable human rights record. I think that exemplifies my double standards argument. I look forward to Ron’s reply.
I think if a country with 1/100th our population started publicly flaying us we’d tell to royally f**k off as well
Dario
Not if it was the Vatican. They’re bucketing us all the time and we haven’t told them to f**k off yet.
Dario
#38
Correct , she’s a b.tch , with ticker and 4 reel ‘Labor left’ policys
Her ‘yes we can’ opponent Obama talks pretty , but was & is all bullsh.t and phoniness and has no reel ‘Labor left policys at all
.
Diogenes
#37
Do you recognise this statement? It was made by Hillary Clinton. Do you support it or not? Do you back Rudd or Hillary? Time to make a choice.
my reply to Dario said it all Pretty easy choice beteen th 2 US Candidates But to ask me to compare Sir Kevin an Aussie AND far dinkum ‘left’ Politican , to any Yankee none of whom ahv a full kit of ”Labor left’ principals , get seriuos
Neither McCain , Hillary or Obama would even make Rudd’s 10th eleven , maybe there interchange bench if bullsh.t content free ‘left’ policy is needed for morale
Any idea why the opening ceremony skipped past the cultural revolution?
They don’t bucket our government… just the Catholics
ronster
I would think that “Labor left” principles would place human rights protests ahead of trade. Rudd’s stand is “Centre” if you must use those terms. Or you could use his description of himself as an “economic conservative”.
But doesn’t it help human rights in China by trading with them so they can develop their economy and get more people out of poverty?
Diogenes, firstly, boycotting the games would achieve absolutely nothing. In fact it would make things worse. The games give us a chance, in a diplomatic way, to express our views over their human rights abuses.
Secondly, as Rudd said, (a worlds expert in their culture) with the Chinese it’s two steps forward and one step back.
Hillary was just playing simple little opportunistic politics. She would have a better chance beating Liesel Jones in the breaststroke than ever making more progress with China than Rudd.
Yes ShowsOn its all about a buck hey?
Diogenes
#40
“I look forward to Ron’s reply.’
You ar not going to like it IF you reread your own quote in #37
“I believe President Bush should not PLAN on attending the opening ceremonies in Beijing, ABSENT major changes by the Chinese government
As th STRONGEST Nation on earth , thats what cowardly Pres Bush SHOULD hav done , shown guts and integrity for human beings getting bad treatment A public statement pro human rights no less ! IF th strongest Nation on earth has not th decency & humanity to do this , then what hope is there Make a stand USA for humans liberties where there is NO oil supplies !! ( instead of for your greedy oil intersts)
Once he’s said it , th message is out to whole world’s 3 billion under suffferage , be courageous , that there is hope Naturally through back channeling ,
“concessions” would be made by both USA and China , as both would reely want USA to attends
.
ie. diplomacy would then start , but Chinese and th world would know , ‘freedom is not dispensible only where there is oil (and of course th USA ulktimately would hav attended , but th public mesage to World would be out there , can not take it back out of 3 billion under sufferage peoples ears
So ? for mine , nothing wrong with th b.tch having ‘ticker’ Diogenes
Oiliness man ?Lets look at mr oiliness phoney’s response to Hillary’s unambiguous committemnt . tell you what , oiuliness spent th next week making FIVE differing reponses , mr houdini with pretty words , different nuanced stanses to ‘catch’ votes Bullsh.i man th Chinese wuld sneer at without respect
Sir Kevin ? we ar NOT th strongest Nation on earth , our approach had to be clever to get an improved result , so Sir Kevin needed an ‘oz’ approach and he DID STAND UP
READ VERA’s excellent #17 to prove this
READ THOMAS PAINE’s excellent #37 as to why Rudd for an ‘oz’ country is th correct approach
So i stand by what i said , no doubles theres , and of course as Vera said Sir Kevin has done as proud again
Re-read what I wrote.
I meant reread what you (Diogenes) rote
I don’t understand why you call Rudd “Sir”. Labor members aren’t allowed to accept knighthoods.
Diogenes : “I think that exemplifies my double standards argument #40
I look forward to Ron’s reply.”
Suggest you re read my #50 post , consistent i’d say and i stand by it
ShowsOn
I’m not arguing in any way for a trade boycott. When I pressed “send” I realised my post should have been clearer about the “left” placing a higher emphasis on human rights than the “right” would, and vice versa for trade.
ronster
I’m still gasping for breath at your coldness to Hillary. You’ve thrown her under the bus. She wouldn’t even made Rudd’s first eleven! What’s all this crap about “strong” countries being able to do what “weak” countries cannot in diplomacy.
I think your justification that “strong” countries can do things that we cannot do doesn’t hold water. Plenty of small countries have done more than us about China.
And I bet if the Rodent was doing exactly what Rudd is doing, he’d be criticised by many of the people who are sticking up for Rudd.
rod
brings back some fond memories of nov 11 and some not so fond
Re china
the prestige we are garnereing o/s will come back to us in so many positive ways
Dio
rudd is an ex diplomat-need i say more
The youtube references were a blast from the past!!!
Check out a clip from the Sunday program in early 1989
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZTCQdFAuDI
The off air banter between Laurie Oakes and Graham Richardson is a classic… It starts at 2:06.
It was set just after the 1989 WA state election…
#15 Diog – [China has a human rights record worse than almost any country. Why the hell are we so pleased that they like us?] – what century are you referring to?
Diogenes
#55
you hav misrepresented my post #50 , you accused me of double standards which i not only demolished , but exposed your weak argument as I will get to
FIRST re BUSH I said cowardly Bush should hav made th ‘human rights tibetan Statement you lisrted Hillary suggested in #37 trongest nation on earth making a stand 9obviously thr later diplomacy betwwen US and China , USA would hav attended
You avoided this point
SECOND HILLARY her stanse i supported , it had ‘ticker’
THIRD MR Oiliness phoney , no couage , 5 diferent nuanced positions in a week , th Chinese would giggle at such a p.ss weak amateur
FOUR RUDD I said ‘oz’ can not invade or insult Countrys , so a different stanse was required for .oz. vs USA , for ‘oz’ firm dipomacy was needed , Vera #17 proved Rudd HAD already done so Thomas at #37 explained why
FIFTH Rodent ? would never have told th Chinese what Rudd per vera’s post said
So clearly I do not hav double standards as demonstrated
Now lets look at your argument , you do NOT favor trade sanctions , you do NOT favor Hillarys firm public approach for th US , you do NOT favor Rudd’s already firm diplomacy approach , so what th hell do you propose …actauly take our 3 F111’s to bejing ? (I mean if you were one of Gilligans “progressives” anti Rudd set yes they find it is it reely difficult to applaud Sir Kevin that he is doing such job) …but you seem to hav no alternative solution I think
FINNS
double standards USA , no oil no interest I mean a Bush firm speech would hav been helpful but maybe he was worried th Chinese may ask about human right sover ‘Katrina” poor survivors being ignored for so long , bet if the were differnt demographic help would hav come quicker Double edged sword principals th US use
Ronnie, i just want to know when was the last time the Chinese secretly and illegally bomb a country for 12 months or so and killed 350,000 innocent civilians.
FINNS
thats th hypocritcal position th US has got itself into There ar humanitarian abuses everywhere , Tibet is an example Th World looks to th USA believing land of liberty and democracy for a lead to make a public stand It should despite its own ‘history’ as some good would come
MORE good would of course come IF there was no Vietnam , Cambodia , Iraq , renditions , gitmo , no darfurs/Ruwanda’s /palestinains where th US sits idly by ….oil & self interst is US powerful motive for such hypocritical abuses , so th Chinese could give a return embarassing lecture with an almost barry Hall That would be good also …publicly A public start is needed instead of everything sweetly behind closed doors
#15 Diog – China has suffered the human rights record worse than almost any country between 1885-1948 in the hand of external powers. Why the hell are we so surprised that they dont like us?
Well th USA is even today ar bemused th muslims hate USA , despite troops in middle East which clearly th populace do nrt want , land they regard as holy , guess it would be like foreign troops on sacred Aborigine land Do they not ‘get it’
The Chinese would be well within their rights to point out to their critics in the U.S and in Australia, that countries that launched a war on a near defenceless though oil rich Iraq, based on lies and deceit, are not in a strong position to criticize anyone. Over a million dead most of them children and over 2 million made in refugees and the country divided up for big oil with the help of the U.S. State Dept.
Liam
I’m glad double standards were brought up by Diogenes Th problem with his argument was my points in #50 & #59 were consistent & not double re USA needing to make a public stand , concurrent with Rudd’s current firm dipomacy
I was certainly not implying USA a innocent violets at all , but that was not what th debate was about so i did not mention it
Th problem Diogenes ‘view’ had is th fact USA itself (I was aware has been guilty of double standards) but as Diogenes also knew it had double standards it left him with no alternative solution to offer Whereas i’m saying a public stand needs to be made first by th USA as small Nations ar looking fore a ‘lead’ as Hillasry suggested ,
THEN Chinese will respond and i would hope they did (probably diplomatically but would prefer publicly ,
AND let all th humanitarian dirt come out and land , and if it hurts its a start to reality …particularly to US psche and thereafter maybe its selfish FA oil driven policy
Current solutions for 30 years hav not worked very well !!
Rudd’s diplomacy with both countries thereafter becomes then a bonus ?
So FINNS
#61
yes , I knew th double standards lurked there , like it into open also to change US psche You just more concoise
Ron I support the Rudd policy re China, he has no blood on his hands on the Iraq issue.My point was that when we behave like criminals it robs us of any moral base from which to justifiably critcize China or any other country.
Liam
“Ron I support the Rudd policy re China, he has no blood on his hands on the Iraq issue”
Absolutely Liam , I did say I FULLY suppported Rudd’s approach in my #50 & #59
We ar in total agreement
What Diogenes tried as he himself admitted was try to “wedge” me for previuos comments i made re what th USA should do , as i had favoured a public approach (and still do) He was asserting I was udsing double standards
So in 350 & #59 I pointed out that what I felt th US sahould do (most powerful Nation on earth) was DIFFERENT to what I believed ‘oz’ and Rudd should do (us being only a middle ranking country Diogenes “wedge” failed
IT IS TRUE re your point
“My point was that when we behave like criminals it robs us of any moral base from which to justifiably critcize China or any other country.”
So what i’m knowingly suggeting as per my #66 is USA still do it , and wear th big bite back for its past hypocracy , otherwise USA psche remains unchanged
There is plenty of humanitarian blame to share around and prefer it finally to be in open without hypocracy So do not disagree with your underlying point there
I’ve assumed all night th “rattle snake” in my wish for a USA public stanse ie It will come back to bite them , and publicly and maybe change there psche “God bless America” as well
Th two reverse arguments ,
1/ another Country first criticise USA for FA oil & self interst type hypocacy , would simply get ignored by th US Let th US make th mistoke of playing there high & mighty stand first , then rebutal can follow
2/ continue US cofidential diplomacy as now , as per 30 years , results not good
Ron I think your argument is well made and as the U.S.has the loudest voice they may do some good by using in this instance.
Thanks Liam
(”and they may do some good by using in this instance.”
with th double edged sword working for good both ways)
Have had Olympic Games Opening Ceromoney on all nite , magnificent dancing and presentation etc , pity one could not bottle th goodwill Liam have you seen any of it ?
Drum Roll, break out the Champagne, bring on the dancing girls…
It finally has become clear who is the big winner in the Pineapple Party takeover of the collapsed Liberal Party in Queensland. It is none other than the would be Pineapple Party candidate for Indooroopilly Geoff Greene. It continues the Pineapple Party’s theme that everybody is a winner from this merger.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24150929-5006786,00.html
Ronnie, yes, last night opening ceremony was sensational.
The Chinese invented and gave to the World: paper, printing, gun powder and compass without even asking for IP payments.
Diog and the likes, What about a thank you?
So much for a new party with new ideas after the National Party takeover of Queensland politics. A muster of has beens, misfits and badly beaten ex candidates is now the formula being applied by the Pineapple Party.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GkwIRbLw8
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24150034-3102,00.html
Finns
I logged on this morning with some trepidation. Actually, I haven’t copped it quite as badly as I thought I would. As you are well aware, I view the US’s actions over the last 50 years or so as deplorable. I think the US has caused more global misery than China during that time making itthe world champion in misery creation.
China has made enormous contributions over history to the advance of humanity but I’m betting there hasn’t been much good in the last 100 years. They did give the 20th century its largest “mass murder” though.
Currently, China has human rights abuses in many areas; Darfur, treatment of disidents, Tibet, Burma, Inner Mongolia, death penalty, freedom of speech and religious persecution to start with.
You will be pleased to know that I’m reading “River Town” by Peter Hessler which is about his two years on the Yangtze River in an effort to educate myself about China. I’m open to any other reading suggestions.
Ronster
I agreed with Hillary if you recall. Just because Hillary said it doesn’t immediately make it wrong. Lots of leaders have boycotted the Opening Ceremony. I’m not even saying Rudd needed to do that but he’s over there talking about how well our Chinese friends are doing by closely monitoring the smog and that we should concentrate on the positives FFS.
And to divert the torrent of abuse directed at me by St Kevin’s disciples, I will bring up the OO’s latest balanced and insightful piece on CC.
They’re not sure we’re even getting warmer now, let alone that humans are causing it. Evidently there are sceptics who are taking apart the arguments that global warming is happening on the internet. The bottom line of the article is that both sides are engaging in selective propaganda abd we shouldn’t trust either. Therefore the OO’s long-standing policy of CC neglect is the best way to go.
PS Finns I think we can write off Edwards for VP. He’s been a very bad boy.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24148862-28737,00.html
Diogenes I can’t see any torrent of abuse being sustained, as far as I am concerned the long running human rights abuses by Chinese authorities are indefensible.
Just wondering; who is acting PM at the moment? I would assume Gillard but I thought she was heading over to the games too at some stage.
And has there been an official reaction to the events in Georgia by the Australian government?
In case anyone hadn’t noticed, Shanahan is still muttering on to himself about the likelihood of a Costello leadership with a terrified Labor party to blame… because the egged him on by criticising him!
Keep shuffling those little pieces of paper around the desk Dennis. Every now and again something comes up, a random pattern, a serendipitous arrangement, that seems to make sort of sense.
Diogenes
#76
“Actually, I haven’t copped it quite as badly as I thought I would.”
Thats only because I’ve got such a gentle nature
A big Yawn may be some posters view bloging here about humanitarian abuses Thats there right to think that , but Sir Kevin doesn’t think that way Kevin Rudd did what NO leadr in th world would hav th courage to do , make a human rights spech in manderin in China Who to ? to China’s brainiest & brightest University students at a Chinese Uni no less So I think its a legit polical topic here
World humanitarian issues and abuses can not be addressed as one liners Multi level issues ar involved some complexly inter-connected What happened was each tome I addressed one , another “front” would open , like a jugglar show
Diogenes you said yourself you wish to “wedge” me in #40 on it Wedging me was like Howard’s wedgies on Rudd , picking one just Weetie out of a breakfast bowl instead of eating th lot with all dynamics considered
You ar correct you supported my Hillary view for US to intimate boyvcott of opening ceromony to highlight Tibet against th Mr Oiliness’s flaky public view to say nothing (with Gilligans brigade cheering Oiliness’s p.iss weak stanse) But what you did not consider is we in ‘oz’ a middle ranking Country needed to take a diferent approach , firm diplomacy Rudd did so via his above Uni speech and per Vera’s #17 detailed post So Kevin 07 approach is corect also and I support it
BUT BUT , humaniterian abuse is an embarassing see saw Who is not blameless ? Who has been th worst human rights ofender ? Partisan support for one Country may ignore THERE human rights abuses , whilst hypocriticaly critisising another Countrys human rights abuses , which was FINNS valid point
(which I was aware of but it needed stating as Amigo did)
US is one of th worst compliant players of human rights abuses , so we should not be blinkered USA is happy to send troops to liberate Kuwait (and its oil) , but not to Rwanda , Muabe’s Zimbarbee and for years th absolute genocide of Sebia/Croatia , US overtly and covertly has supported Israeli’s human rights abuses against Palestinians for ovr 40 years ! South Africa’s 3 million whites dominated over 20 million black South Africans for decades with no US troops coming , Famines tragicaly with millions dying from starvation in Darfur etc and US sits idly by Then Iraq and 3000,000 civilians dead So Tibet is not OK , but neither is all of th above abuses , most of which grotequely worser in human deaths & abuses
USA COULD have prevented alot of these human rights abuses , if there was oil there or it was in US’s self interest , and so is grossly guilty of inflicting directly or compliently beeing idle of large scale human rights abuses
Queston is what should be done , or do nothing Sir Kevin’s couragous firm diplomatic stanse is our contrbution But unless th USA makes a non oil based public stand nothing realiticaly will World wide change for oppessed humans BUT like a boomarang USA has to wear th valid inevitable criticism back of it own hypocrital abuse (direct caused & by non action caused) of hiuman rights abuses USA is our “mother in law” , we hav to hav her warts and all as she protects us ‘ hopefuly’ and is economically benefical , she our mother in law is in our family but we did not marry her Blame is easy to throw around , but harder to reely remedy
hahahah BB
FINNS
#74
August 9th, 2008 at 7:57 am
“Ronnie, yes, last night opening ceremony was sensational.”
Magnificent yes it was ! I’m sure my #81 post may hav upset pro and anti american blogers here , leaving me in my barbarian cave , but at least th cave solar heated
ron
I think the US has so little credibility on the world stage regarding human rights abuses that anything George Bush says carries absolutely no moral weight. Sadly under the Rodent, we ended up with no credibility as well but Rudd is restoring our standing in the world.
Hence their current protests about Russia’s treatment of Georgia where yet another ethnic cleansing appears to be happening with 1400 dead. I have no idea of the rights and wrongs of the situation in Georgia but I can be damn sure what the US says is pure self-serving BS.
“brings back some fond memories of nov 11 and some not so fond ”
Gusface
Fond memories, as Grand Old Elephant said, of so many outraged over what happened and the way it happened, not so fond as GOF also said, this outrage didn’t translate into votes.
rod
#85
“brings back some fond memories of nov 11 and some not so fond ”
None for me at all , and reminders of th brilliant Kerr’s Kerr speech only rekindles latent rage , and outage trashing democracy
And as for Gough th great having a magnificnt steak for lunch , just showed his strong ‘ticker’ under presure , and reinforces th Country’s loss , especialy with our Ipswich kid Hayden rsponsibly in charge of Treasury
BB @ 80,
Inspired by your comment, I actually took the rare (for me) step of reading a Shanahan article. Not a very impressive piece, I won’t bother again for a while.
I have a question though, for you or others who have been following the story more closely than I have:
Were the ministers’ comments about Costello (a) in response to specific questions, or (b) reasonably spontaneous?
If (a) then I agree with you, what is Shanahan going on about? Of course Rudd Govt Ministers aren’t going to say “Yes, he was great, let’s have him back”!
If (b) then various senior Ministers do seem to be spending more time than is normal (or healthy) thinking about Pete’s career plans. Which would make you think, why?
Shanahan:
Lol riiiiiiight. Another Costello piece by Dennis, based on nothing more than wishful thinking.
This guy would give Enid Blyton a run for her money – for promulgating fantasy and childlike awe in the target audience.
I thought Dennis’ piece complete tosh, laughed about the claim the gov’t ministers were afraid of Costello. Of course they’d have a folder of talking points about him. Gawd, it wouldn’t be hard.
Jennifer Hewett’s article with the Hamlet “Will he? Won’t he?” angle was even funny, and deliberately so.
B.S.F. @ 79. Julia is Acting PM at the moment. I think she’s on Insiders tomorrow, which I’ll actually watch, as I think she’s just such good value. I’ve not seen anything in either The Age or The Oz papers about Australia’s reaction to what is happening in Georgia, or heard anything on the ABC today.
Diogenes, I think diplomacy with China over its human rights record is quite tricky. From the Chinese point of view, they’ve had an unhappy experience of being invaded, colonised, humiliated and exploited by both Western countries and the Japanese, so they have quite a bit of ammunition concerning how other countries have treated the Chinese people, not to mention how other countries , such as ours, treat their own people, e.g., the Aborigines. Glass houses and all that.
ron
I remember the day and time and how I heard Gough was dismissed, like yanks remember about JFK, also recall where I was when I heard about Dianna.
Funny, there is a connection between the two, but not to be discussed on Williams blog.
Dyno @ 87:
All the copmments about Costello from ministers that I saw were (a)… responses to specific questions. Not one spontaneous comment.
This was one of the (many) flaws in Dennis’s article: he represented Labor comments in response to questions as fear-and-trembling oozing out of their every pore. Just wasn’t the case at all. Ask them a question, and they’ll provide an answer. But I don’t think Labor is scared of Costello. Quite the contrary IMHO. And I think Cozzie knows that full well.
Rx @ 88:
“Wishful thinking” = those little pieces of paper Dennis shuffles around on his desk in his basement.
Bushfire Bill, I agree. I reckon Julia would be licking her lips at the prospect of lining Costello up in her sights and I reckon it’s probably Costello who’s quivering in his boots. Typical bully, take away the props and he’s revealed to be a coward.
BB
Shanahan said is likely Costello doesn’t know what he’s going to do.
He’s pointing to the Great Undecider – and blowing up a puff-piece about what a Fearsome Leader he would be.
Well, maybe … but he’d have to decide what to have for breakfast first, what suit to wear, then the courageous decision: whether he should take a brolly or not …
For those interested in the “war” in South Ossetia, here’s a good summary from the BBC of what the issues are. From an Oz POV, the important thing is that NATO don’t get drawn into it, which seems to be what Georgia is hoping for.
As a point of order, why does the PM have to be in Australia? In this day and age, does it really matter in a practical sense where he is? Or it it a legal thing to avoid having a government in exile.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm
I hope this is just an isolated event and not part of a larger scheme.
An American tourist has been killed and another injured when a Chinese man attacked them at an historic monument in Beijing on the first full day of Olympic competition.
The man attacked the two Americans as well as their Chinese guide at the historic Drum Tower monument, a popular tourist site.
After the attack, the assailant then committed suicide by jumping off the second story of the monument.
American tourist killed in Beijing: state media
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/09/2329945.htm?site=olympics/2008
Best thing that could happen is Costello takes over and the LNP get thrashed at the next election causing them to rethink, rebuild and put away extremist/corrupt politics. [aka NT politics!]
The likes of Minchin, Abbott, Andrews, Ruddock etc are a blot on Australian politics and it is their type of thinking that needs to be expunged.
Unfortunately the murdoch munchkins are determined to undermine Labor and up sell the LNP regardless of their vileness and lack of real talent.
Thomas , they to me represent a set of polical US consevative values , where peope hav to fend for themselves or sink , and business of Government is business to make a profit as only criteria
Shanahan strikes me as an ideaologue , who specializes in spining each ‘oz’ article to th Liberals without regard for actual reality of each given event So we get interest rates going dowwn (thats bad) , Rudd uncreases his Poll lead (talk aboot PPM) , CC is a positve for Labor (talk CC denial and cost of CC) , Nelson’s leadership in disaray (then talk about Cossie)
rod
#92
“ron I remember the day and time and how I heard Gough was dismissed,”
yeah , I do too
A little summary of the problems pollsters in the USA have.
It is not “too close to call” merely because polls have John McCain and Barack Obama virtually tied in swing states.
New factors rock the reliability of polling:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/08/a_tough_call_for_presidential_pollsters/
Sounds like they’re trying to look for excuses already in case their polls get it wrong
We now have the Oz reaction to Georgia, and it’s less forceful than Bush and Putin’s! We’re backing Georgia and the West’s position.
“Our position, like the Americans, is that it’s important for peace and stability to return to this part of Georgia,” he said.
“We recognise and continue to recognise Georgia’s soverignty over Ossetia and therefore it’s important that Russia cease its military involvement.
“This problem in Ossetia has been brewing for quite some time. Certainly the timing of the actions on the part of the Russians, that’s a question best put to them. What I know is the international community is speaking with one voice in support of the cessation of hostilities by the Russians.”
Kevin Rudd reveals Bush-Putin argument at Opening Ceremony
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/beijing_olympics/story/0,27313,24156469-5014124,00.html
Reading that, I don’t think they Beijing organisers will be sitting Bush and Putin together again. Actually, finding someone to sit next to Putin might be a problem.
Nice to see Stephen Smith showing leadership and compassion towards the fate of the Bali Nine:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/smith-to-appeal-for-bali-nine-clemency/2008/08/10/1218306632402.html
I thank the gods every day for the removal of Alexander Downer as Foreign Minister.
Imagine having the clown around during the Beijing Games… all of the trouble he’d cause.
Re. Bush v Putin:
I hope to Christ that someone has informed the US President that Georgia is in fact a former Soviet Republic in the Caucuses, not the state in America that houses the worldwide headquarters of Coca-Cola.
Diog, awhile back you mentioned that it looks like that no veep for Edwads now. Yeah, always suspicious of god waving pollie ala Edwards. Just hope your kid doesn’t have any in his closet.
I thank Australian voters.
Fagin
I was quite surprised that Bush had such an “animated” reaction. I thought there was no chance he would have the faintest idea about the South Ossetians. Perhaps he really did think that Russia had invaded Georgia to help Obama over the line. I must say Kevin Rudd seems to have the matter well in hand. He’s very calm and reasonable.
Don’t you love this beat up from the Error re Maxine being “MIA”
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24156440-949,00.html
That should read “Sunday Terror”
‘Error’ sounds fine to me
Frank
There are some at the Tele, and other papers, still harboring a festering hatred over Maxine for humiliating Howard. There was also that photo by another paper of Maxine a couple of weeks after her victory that implied she wasn’t wearing any undies.
What a ridiculous survey, ask 40 people what they think about Maxine and report a couple of negative answers.
Like I said, ‘Error’ sounds fine to me
The Toad is trying to link GG-designate Bryce with the Heiner ‘Affair’ and my post pointing out it was Cabinet Secretary Stuart Tait asked the Archivist to shred the Heiner documents somehow? didn’t get published
I think Latham’s description of the bloated toad in the parliament relates everything I need to know about the creature and, explains a lot to me about his current addiction to the Heiner non-affair. You would think his employers would quietly ship him off to the RSPCA, he is obviously suffering extreme relevance deprivation .
As for the Error, well the murdoch boys are getting awfully desperate and now is the time to push as hard as they can to protect the energy industry control of energy and environmental policy. They are as blatant as you can get in their bias without actually having the Liberal party logo pasted at the corner of each page.
I try hard to think of the fate of the Howard/Costello journalists and Editors if they fail in their current quest. You would think they could only push their heavy bias for only this election cycle without it becoming totally obvious to even a kindergarten kid. After that they would to the world look like that bitter shriveled woman in Great Expectations, sitting in the dark, lamenting the wedding that never happened, leaving the banquet table untouched covered in dust and cobwebs (with a faded picture of Howard and Costello propped up) hating Australians.
They will be extra bitter if Rudd wins the next election because it means he was right, they wrong; he won, they lost. Rudd will invalidate everything they pushed for, believed and hoped for.
Go Rudd, crush the spirit of these awful journalists.
Go Rudd/Gillard/Wong/Tanner etc
rub their noses in it!
Ummm there were mice on that table too
We were on the right path in 1906
ELECTRIC CAR RECORD; MAKES 100-MILE RUN
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9404E0DD1631E733A25750C1A9669D946797D6CF
In 1912 it was all still going strong.
GIGANTIC STRIDES IN AUTO INDUSTRY; Col. Pope Reviews the Progress of the Motor Car During the Past Fifteen Years.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=940DE1D6113CE633A25754C0A9679C946396D6CF
And even in 1914 it was all still looking good.
SAYS ELECTRIC TOURS ARE CLOSE AT HAND; Statement of Electric Vehicle Association Shows Possibilities of This Type of Car.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A01E3DF143AE633A25757C1A9609C946596D6CF
Interesting bit of trivia then is that the first dog victim of a car was a fox terrier. RIP What is it with dogs and wheels?
An interesting article by Mark Mordue about the way he reckons the West is blind to Chinese nationalism: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/crouching-tiger-hidden-dragon-20080810-3szo.html?page=-1
He likens China’s Olympic efforts to Hitler’s of the 1936 games: a spin effort designed to show-off to the world and gee up the locals. Completely different from all other Olympic Games, I’m sure.
He criticises the “4-2-1″ (4 grandparents, 2 parents, 1 child) policy, saying it has produced a generation of spoilt brats who will be China’s next brace of leaders. For the life of me I can’t see what the alternative would have been. Untrammelled population growth maybe? We might have 2 billion chinese now instead of a mere 1.5 billion. That’d be nice.
Rudd comes in for cautious approval with his “friend who will tell you the truth” concept, but Mordue reserves judgement on whether it will work. I suppose the alternative is to nuke the buggers and be done with it.
Whatever the criticism of China, it is the fact that there are so many of them that is the problem (if that is the correct term) for the West. The day had to come when pressure of numbers blew out the windows of the old status quo and took the country over by storm.
Mordue doesn’t mention Global Warming, but I may as well. Can we in the West afford to go on polluting in the way we have been if that means the Chinese will see us as hypocrites for lecturing them about their Carbon responsibilities? I don’t think so. We have to come to the environmental table with clean hands. The alternative is to think politics and ill-feeling towards some of the more strident Chinese policies are substitutes for fixing the planet. We can go down secure in the knowledge that we showed those Asians a thing or two. But we still go down… only that the disaster is immeasureably larger.
It’s all too confusing sometimes. Bush lecturing the Chinese on Darfur (or the Russians for invading South Ossetia – a country roughly the size of Sydney) comes to mind. Olympic officials whingeing about over-zealous crowd control, or no crowds at all… take your pick. Hey guys, you gave ‘em the Games! Mordue says the brats sit around in baseball caps saying how they hate America. Oh, the irony! Are we to worry that they’re hating America (for what… can’t think of a single reason), or are we to rejoice that they’re doing it in baseball caps?
I’m wondering whether China is far too big to govern in the conventional way. 1.5 billion people ruled from a single apex point of government is an experiment that has never been attempted in world history until this century… and the first few efforts failed miserably. Maybe there’s a critical mass far below that figure and China has passed it. Devolution, anyone? Democracy sure seems to be the least likely option. Ask yourselves whether China can afford democracy, or whether it is not in a state of permanent national emergency, requiring stricter control. Just sayin’…
Then again, Mordue does not consider the radical changes that have occurred in the past three decades of China’s history. I can still remember the Red Guards, the famines, Chairman Mao… as real, live events covered in newspapers and on television daily during my adult lifetime. Where are they all now? Should the Cultural Revolution have been included in the opening ceremony? Would that have done any good at all? Or best to forget them and be thankful they’re gone?
Whatever the answers, dealing with China presents real challenges and I think I’d rather be Rudd, coming to the table with clean hands on invasions, the environment and (just lucky, heh) speaking the lingo, than Bush, shouting at Putin at the Opening Ceremony, flailing around about Darfur while all the time meandering through Iraq like he owns the place and getting bogged down in Afghanistan.
It may be true that there were so many empty seats at the Games venues because hundreds of thousands of China’s spoilt brats just wanted the tickets to show off, but not the spots in the stand to sit down in. That would hardly be different to our own near-miss in 2000, or Athens in 2004. The Chinese just do it bigger than we did.
Thing is, we’re applying our own values to China, but China has enough momentum and bums on geopolitical seats to be able to ignore us (once they’ve finished selling to us, of course). So it’s fair enough, I guess, to write “Crouching tiger, hidden dragon” stories in The Age, but I would have appreciated Mordue’s article a little more if he’d come up with an alternative method of dealing with the Dragon, besides the gloom and doom cliches of the Right.
BB
On CC and China, I have to disagree with Ron and agree with you. The fairest way to reduce CO2 emissions is so that each person on the planet is “allowed” to use the same amount. Countries like the US and Oz currently use about 25 tons per capita. China uses about 3 tons per capita (and India 1.5 out of interest).
How can “the West” lecture China? Even if they keep increasing their emissions at 2% pa (which they are currently doing) and we achieve a 50% reduction by 2050, we’ll still be emitting double what they do per capita. If I was Chinese, I would point that out to the US etc and tell them to fcuk off.
CC did make it in to the opening ceremony so that is a good sign.
I found it a little disturbing to see the obvious uncritical nationalism of the new young rich in China. Hyper-sensitive to crticism and every negative thing is just the tricky international press. However, these are still a small part of the whole.
Australia needs to see China as a big ocean liner that we can only influence with lots a small tugs pushing against the side but powerless to influence otherwise.
Did anyone else find the media news coverage on the weekend slightly disturbing? Russia and Georgia are now engaged in what appears to be virtually a full scale war in South Ossetia (2000+ dead in 3 days) yet it was the fourth item on weekend news. Only SBS led with it on Saturday night.
I confess to not being as interested in the Olympics as nationalism demands but even so, was a gold medal really more important than this? Even our cautious PM Rudd made a statement expressing genuine concern for this incident, yet it barely got mentioned. Does it take a spike in oil prices before anyone cares which countries are getting bombed into oblivion?
BB 120
You make several excellent points on China. I do not see it as the ogre some fear, although I would not pretend it has a clean slate on human rights and support for dictators like Mugabe. It is not as monolithic as people might expect either. The provincial governments are more powerful than states here, and the level of modernity, corruption and human rights varies greatly from province to province. Provincial governments in big coastal areas like Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin are trying very hard to improve the quality of life of their people. Some in western mountain areas including, but not limited to, Tibet are still in conquer/exploit mode and very corrupt.
Socrates
I agree. Bush’s furious reaction was a clue that there was something more going on than a separatist movement so I looked around a bit. In Europe, they are now reporting that this Ossetian war is about oil and it’s going to get uglier because of it.
Russian jets targeted a key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles in a weekend bombing raid in Georgia that raised fears the conflict will tighten Moscow’s stranglehold on Europe’s energy supplies.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2534767/Georgia-Russia-targets-key-oil-pipeline-with-over-50-missiles.html
Socrates @ 123 -
Does it take a spike in oil prices before anyone cares which countries are getting bombed into oblivion?
Unfortunately, the ‘West’ has backed itself into a very vulnerable corner with Russia. America, and to only a slightly lesser extent Europe, happily patted itself on the back for having seen off the Soviet Union and then in a vulgar, pitiless display of hubris proceeded to rub the Russian peoples’ noses in it.
At the same time Europe eagerly made itself hostage to Russian oil and natural gas and America threw away what little moral authority it may have had (and much of its military capacity) with its unprovoked attack on Iraq.
The Russians are having the last laugh as they begin rebuilding the Empire and there is little anyone can do about it. Revenge can be a very heady cocktail. Pity about the innocents that are/will be crushed underfoot.
The West has been picking on China because it has been an easy pick. But no more. China knows it and they will never allow themselves to be an easy pick again. Why should they? China has never been an imperialist and colonialist country. It has been conquered and occupied by foreign powers before the Mongolians,the Manchurians, the Western Powers, Russians and Japan. Yet, it has managed to survive and maintain its unity and identity. Empires and nations come and go throughout human kind history, but China has been a constant for over 5000 years. So they must have have done something right.
The West picks on China over Tibet, Xinjiang and even Taiwan. But these regions have been in and out of the Chinese Empire for thousand of years. The Chinese have legitimate claim to say these are internal matters.
Yet the West is prepared to ignore the 500 pounds black bear in the room. If you compare the records of Russian and China over “external” interference. there is no comparison. Now is Georgia, remember the Baltic, Hungary, Czeckoslavia, Afganistan and it is still hurting over the lost of its Soviet Empire.
The West has really ffffup again. The fear of China is based more on the fact that they look different and many of them. The West has more to fear from the Russians than the Chinese but the Russians do look alike.
Diogenes and MayoFerral
I didn’t mean to imply that this conflict was only about oil; there are multiple causes with a long history. My concern was that it is a very serious conflict but the media was so distrcted with the Olympics that its no wonder policiticans use such times to report/do bad things.
Still, just to prove that the politicians can misunderstand this conflict as badly as the media, here is a ridiculous quote from Cheney:
“United States Vice-President Dick Cheney has called Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to say “Russian aggression must not go unanswered,” the vice-president’s office said.”
See http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/11/2330960.htm
Quite apart from the shrill tone (Rudd’s statement was much more measured, reasonable but still firm) which is just begging for further military action, it would probably deeply offend the Russians to call them the aggressors. No doubt it suits them fine to take control of Ossetia, but my understanding is that this conflict was actually started by the Georgians sending their military into the breakaway province of South Ossetia, with the Russians then intervening to kick them out. As I understand it, the georgian preseidnet gambled that the Russians would be distacted, but that was a big mistake. Putin is not Bush.
Strategically it is important. The area does not have large oil reserves but a major pipeline could be built from the Caspian Sea via it and Turkey to the west bypassing Russia. The Russians are undoubtedly aware of that and, having been given an excuse to take it, I doubt will give it up any time soon.
Ken Parish has a pretty comprehensive analysis of the NT result at Club Troppo.
http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/08/11/what-happened-in-the-nt-arrogance-hubris-and-complacency/
Socrates
I suspect Cheney is squealing because of the oil pipeline. When was the last time the US lifted a finger over “ethnic cleansing”?
#129
An excellent analysis at Club Troppo.
A slight non-sequiter for Adelaide residents or those who know the aviation game: flight cancellations and fuel prices. Through news reports and personal experience I have seen a significant number of flight cancellations out of Adelaide in the past six months. Very often there is a pattern: flights in mid afternoon or early evening are delayed until the passengers wind up catching a plane at the same time as a later (or last) flight. Once off this could be bad luck. But I have not seen any of the prime time full flights delayed in this way. Another potential example was reported about a Virgin flight:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/11/2331248.htm
If it happens repeatedly I’d say an edict has been issued that planes will not take off unless 75% or more full and if people have paid for an earlier flight (often more expensive than the last of the day) then too bad, they don’t get that time. I find it hard to beleive that so many planes are “broken”. NB this trend began before Qantas’s recent argumetn with engineers, and includes Virgin too.
Am I just too cycnical or have others experienced this too? Any aviation insiders care to admit the truth?
New essential research poll on banks cutting interest rates.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national/force-banks-to-cut-interest-rates-poll/2008/08/11/1218306752448.html
But Steve, if they are forced to cut interest rates how else can they rip off borrowers here to recoup their losses on a bunch of stupid investmetn decisions in the USA?
Socrates
Clearly you haven’t read Janet’s latest apologia for the banking industry. We HAVE to let them make as much money as they want. That’s good economics evidently.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/labor_wins_populist_gold_medal
Yes, whats good for the banks is good for the economy. We should bugger a hundred-billion domestic housing sector so the banks can make a few more billion in profits. Brilliant economics!
I’ll tell you what’s worse! Those non performing overpaid executives and their front line management whose name appears in their annual reports.
Take Suncorp Metway for e.g. What a pack of losers. I wouldn’t give them the dole.
At least CBA and Westpac have performed exceptionally well given the global credit crisis. If they were running Suncorp Metway the stock would be around $20 bucks today.
Pensioners should note that Mal Brough tried to get more dough for them but their hero Howard rejected him.
The point that I was trying to make is that poor management has the potential to be far more costly to medium income earners through their super for example than banks not immediately passing on an interest rate cut.
CC was one of the themes included in the opening ceremony of the games for China which at least means for China there is no denialist battle going on as we see with the LNP and murdoch nuts.
This add is about to go out in the USA calling for a total switch to clean power in 10 years. Impossible yes but a sign of the momentum that is going to swallow up people like Minchin and co.
http://www.wecansolveit.org/page/invite/repoweramerica
Ronster
You’ve been very quiet recently. I thought the comments on CC in China would bring you out of your lair.
I have solved your feasibility problem vis-a-vis the Ron-Wong Solar Farm. As gusface pointed out earlier, high voltage DC should solve the connectivity distance problem. And there is something called Pumped-Storage Hydroelectricity which will solve some of the storage problems. The principle is fairly simple. Excess electricity is used to pump water from a reservoir up a mountain into another reservoir. When you need the power, the floodgates open and turning turbines and creating hydroelectric electricity. I would at least appreciate a footnote when you collect the Nobel Peace Price with Ms Wong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped_storage
It is also amazing that bank charges led the list of factors causing inflation last quarter.
“The most significant price rises this quarter were for deposit and loan facilities (+9.5%), automotive fuel (+8.7%), rents (+2.2%), hospital and medical services (+4.0%), house purchase (+1.0%), furniture (+3.1%), and spirits (+6.1%).”
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/ProductsbyReleaseDate/938DA570A34A8EDACA2568A900139350?OpenDocument
Diogenoski
# 121
“BB
On CC and China, I have to disagree with Ron and agree with you”
re CHINA vs USA , on BOTH humanitarian abuses and CC , you’ve misstated my position , argue your case not mone , I hav enough trouble pputting my case with my lingos without your ‘help’
CC:
China & India has had th decency to ratify Kyoto , USA hav not for selfish reasons ALL three ar huge emitters in total and reductions ar needed from ALL 3 otherwise CC will not get solved Kyoto allows a mechanism for China & India (quiet rightly) to get a dispensation ( a reduced target) as “developing nations” on how high there targets ar vs USA who would get th FULL alocated target as a “developed nation” (same as EU Japan etc get) That reduced target is subject to yet to be negotiated negotiations USA ar holding this process up by refusing to ratify Kyoto
Whats wrong or inequitable with this Kyoto process ? (except to USA competitive to India/China self interests)
HUMAN RIGHTS:
Go back in history & you’ll find most European countries hav been guilty of human right abuses Russia’s record is despicable (Stalin & Soviet epire0 Israel on palestinians “White” South African apatheid Japan in Manchuria killing millions , USA (Iraq & Vietnam directly , and “compliantly in Ruwanda ,Darfur famines , with Pol Pot slaughters , Zamarbe & th Croatia/Sebia genocide)
Who is blameless (Hardly any country !) , and who has more blood on there hands ? China quite rightly should be critisised for Tibet and other “rights” issues and I completely suport Kevin Rudd for doing so and no one should criticise him for his firm dipomalacy BUT China is one of th least ‘abusers’ , lets not be blinkered USA has been a worse indirect ‘human right abuser creating more civilian deaths , but offshore from US mainland , but its still th SAME thing’ , still humanitarian abuse
I liked Hillary’s Public stand idea , let th Chinese rebut with US examples , let it all hang out , instead of being handled by “confidential diplomacy” , a system that for 30 years has failed oppressed peoples world wide My theory of th effective “muted” reactions to russia/Georgia , is every Nation knows they also hav skeletons , and Russia knows it
Ronster
My point was that I don’t think China and India would be selfish if they refused to do anything about CC until they had the same emissions per capita as the truly selfish countries like the US, Australia etc.
On human rights, I don’t recall stating your position apart from trying to wedge you on Hillary which you seem to have squirmed out of somehow by the skin of your teeth (and thank God we didn’t choose Edwards BTW).
Obviously no country is without fault, except maybe New Zealand, in causing human rights abuses. I’ve bought lots of books on world history recently and Australia only ever rates about two lines in a 500 page book. But now, finally, I’ve bought a book where we rate a decent mention. It’s called “Blood and Soil” and its a history of genocide. We rate a whole chapter on the 19 Century genocide of Aboriginies.
Newspoll 57-43
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24165653-601,00.html
Nelson PPM 12%, Rudd 68%. Ha ha ha ha!!
It would be very interesting to see if the WA Liberals will invite Nelson over to help campaign for Colin Barnett ?
Somehow, I doubt it very much.
New thread.