Findings of a Galaxy poll published in today’s News Limited papers from a small sample of 400 (nothing on voting intention):
• Kevin Rudd leads Malcolm Turnbull as preferred leader 58 to 28 per cent. The last federal Galaxy poll in March had Rudd leading Brendan Nelson 69 per cent to 15 per cent.
• Twenty-three per cent of respondents said they would be more likely to vote Liberal with Turnbull as leader than they would have been with Nelson, against 11 per cent less likely.
• Fifty-three per cent believe Turnbull would give the Liberals a better chance at the next election against 35 per cent for Peter Costello.
• Forty-eight per cent of respondents considered Turnbull “arrogant” against 23 per cent for Rudd.
• Fifty-one per cent considered Rudd a “strong leader” against 30 per cent for Turnbull, and 49 per cent thought Rudd “decisive” (surely much the same thing) against 30 per cent for Turnbull.
• Fifty-six per cent of respondents believed Rudd had a “a vision of the future” and 52 per cent thought him “in touch with voters”.
304 Comments
Gotta feel for the Libs these days. If Magic Malcolm can’t save them, who can.
Cue all the “He’s only been leader for a week, give him some time”. It’s only going to go downhill from here, when the Government continues to rip into him.
Rudd is invincible.
Oz do you honestly think that days after we get a new leader we’ll get a bounce in the poll??? Are you that mad?
For heavans sakes we’ve just come off Nelson, i wouldnt expect much in the polls for the next month at least.
Nobody is invincible….look at Howard?
Was I right or was I right.
Well, Rudd was neck and neck with Howard for PPM in his first Newspoll, after Beazley was 30 points down on the previous poll…
I suppose Turnbull hasn’t done all that bad really, he just had a huge amount of ground to make up anyway
That’s true, but the flipside is when people say “He’s doubling Nelson!” you can reply “28% is still pathetic and not going to win him anything”.
Glen
Have a look at Possum’s work on the average leader change bounce. Based on that, an immediate bounce is exactly what would be expected and the lack of one would point to what many here have been saying for quite some time – that while Nelson’s performance in the job can’t have really helped, the underlying problems the Libs have are not leader related.
Agree with one thing though … nobody is invincible.
Labor are developing some nice alternatives in Gillard and Smith should Rudd blot his copy book.
I am sure there will be a bounce and I don’t imagine for a second that come election time Labor will maintain such a large lead. (providing the LNP can eventually settle down and act like a normal opposition)
No 4
Yes, but that statistic ignores the fact that Howard had been PM for 11 years already and Rudd had come off the back of a successful and long-running Sunrise stint.
No 8
Oh dear, Stephen Smith must be the blandest politician to ever (dis)grace the parliament.
i think this will even up a bit as time goes along and Turnbull catches a few voters imaginations with some feel good policies, he’s capable of that, however i dont think he’ll ever be able to throw off the arrogance tag now because he’s so obviously arrogant and self satisfied, people dont like obvious arrogance, Rudd keeps his well hidden with a gentle thoughtful front, i dont doubt that he’s arrogant underneath it all or he wouldnt be where he is today, theres something about Turnbull that rubs people up the wrong way and makes them feel he’s not in touch with them–even his own party compatriots, maybe it’s his well known huge ego, after all this is the man who commissioned a poll on himself.
trust the Brisbane Sunday Mail to put skewed spin on the poll, they featured it with ‘ public warms to Turnbull’, i would have thought the public reaction was sort of coolish non committal.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24377612-953,00.html
The narrowing!
William, can we have a poll to predict how long the Turnbull honeymoon will last…
Tom
regarding an earlier discussion on perception
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24375646-5007146,00.html
“Today, Rudd flies to New York on a VIP jet to give a 25-minute speech at the UN General Assembly. It will be his 16th trip in 10 months – and counting. “
A question for Adam. When was the last time NSW voted in a New Federal Government and then voted the same party to win in the State? I wonder what percentage of NSW voters prefer to have a different paty in control Federally to the State.
It’s interesting to see a new party leader, only 4 years in Parliament, on whom the public already have such a strong (and pretty negative) view.
By contrast I doubt if many people had any opinion of Rudd at all when he first became leader.
The fact that someone with Turnbull’s perceived baggage is the best choice just goes to show that the Liberals have no realistic chance of winning the next election*. However surely Turnbull will be better than Nelson was, so it’s still a reasonable gambit at this stage to install him as leader.
*Barring the occurrence of a recession, but some PBers get very irate when this obvious possibility is mentioned, so let’s not go there.
What the poll does prove is that the general public has not fallen for the BS over the $30pw increase to the single pensioner. Turnbull reiterated their policy soon after being elected. It seems that the voter likes the way Rudd is trying to govern by consensus via in depth committee working a decent policy.
With continues attacks, for the last 6 months, by the opposition that this is a do nothing Government, they are falling on deaf ears.
From that Paul Daley article,
“MALCOLM Turnbull has been labelled arrogant, aloof, condescending, impetuous, demanding, autocratic, slippery, irascible, rude, intemperate, foul-mouthed and impatient. And you should hear what his enemies say”.
Why do voters despise Malcolm Turnull when they hardly know him?
Saves time, I suppose.
i wonder how long after the next election talculm will stay in parliament if he doesnt win? somehow i cant see him twiddling his thumbs in opposition for a second term, i know he fancies himself as PM but is he ready to put years into the effort on a maybe? he’s too impatient and likes instant results, that doesnt bode wrell in a future PM, in the time he was in Howards ministry he wasnt exactly a shning light on policy, his squandering millions on far out schemes was noted, i think a lot of that though was him trying to put himself in the public eye showing that he was busy doing things and espousing the latest ideas, pity most were pie in the sky failures though.
the percieved image of Turnbull posing in front of his mirror is a bit hard to banish, at a recent function we had a game in describing our pollies in one word, talcumn’s was mostly egoist, Nelson was loser, Abbott was mania, Costello was sook, Rudd was intellectual, Swan was earnest, Bishop was amazon,Julia was terrier, Wong was trier and Smith was invisable, once people get an image of someone it’s a bit hard to banish, talcumn has a lot of work to do to convince enough voters he’ll see past himself.
GP, please provide details that show Stephen Smith to being a disgrace to parliament.
Turnbull has reiterated all of Nelson’s off-the-top-of-the head, cherry-picked, short term populist thought bubbles so it’s no wonder Rudd retains a huge lead.
Turnbull is still captive of the Right and will only start to make ground when he enunciates coherent, comprehensive and responsible policies that meet Australia’s long term interests.
Trouble is – he won’t be leader any more if he does.
Realistically I think the Libs will feel this is a reasonable start for them. The real test will be to see how Turnbull responds to the rest of the goverrnments budget bills and climate change legislation. Turnbull may be a long way from winning, but if the Libs had gone to an election with Nelson in charge it would have been a wipeout, whereas at least this result suggests Turnbull will limit the damage. Compared to trends earlier in the year that would not be a bad outcome IMO.
Generic Person: It’s very easy to sling personal attacks on a Weblog, especially if you are targeting someone who you know can’t defend themselves in this forum.
It’s also a pretty cretinous thing to do.
Yes, I like that “globetrotting” Prime Minister thing they’re trying to pin on Rudd.
Kerri-Anne Walsh writes in the Sun-Herald today:
Oh I see… Howard still rules, from beyond the political grave apparently. If Rudd deviates one iota from The Great Helmsman’s performance, in this case nights spent abroad in the first year, he is in for thinly veiled accusations that his attention has drifted from the main game. The main is game is, according to Shanahan, “the Economy”. This is presumably because the Opposition has installed an ex-merchant banker as Leader. All very neat.
Rudd’s duty, in this narrative, is to remain in Australia and answer dumb questions in QT from Turnbull like, ” Has Medibank Private gone broke yet, and if not, why not?”. Talking to world leaders and heads of international banking at this time of world crisis is not nearly as important as providing fodder for journalists seeking to score technical points in “the new game in town” as Barry Cassidy has just defined it: can Turnbull out-gotcha Rudd? Some even throw Costello into the mix as the ultimate beneficiary in all this. Will wonders ever cease in this crazy game of political tiddlywinks that journalists take so seriously and try to foist on us as serious commentary?
What a parochial attitude
23 “The real test will be to see how Turnbull responds to the rest of the goverrnments budget bills and climate change legislation.”
Socrates that will be the hard part. Turnbull has to drag a lot of other rabble with him though this process and it will be as easy as herding cats.
gusface @ 15
That News Ltd article must be the most blatant anti-Rudd piece I have read in a long while. They guy doesn’t even try to hide his intentions. Just plain right out Rudd – boo boo boo. Such writing doesn’t deserve to be in a local rag let alone a major new site.
There must be a lot of those petutulent spiteful liberal party MPs on the payroll of murdoch as that piece looks entirely that of an ignorant liberal party office boy.
Was anyone else nauseated by that ‘Malcom Turnbull extravaganza’ on Insiders just then?
Given all the unresolved international issues after the last government (Kyoto, Doha round, Iraq/Iran, credit crunch) I think the overseas travel criticism is nonsensical. I don’t object to politicians travelling overseas for work – I object to them junketing to cricket and tennis matches at our expense. I’d like to see a comparison of the percentage of time Rudd and Howard each spent on work meetings while travelling overseas, as opposed to watching cricket, tennis rugby etc. I recall our previous prime minister managed to clock up a remarkable number of appearances at Lords in his time in office.
I don’t bother with the Insiders anymore – it has morphed into a Liberal party agony hour. The prime concern is to find ways to run down Labor and praise the Liberal party. They are least concerned with serious political and economic analysis or truthful discussions on reality. Just look at the make up of their panel from week to week (weak to weak).
Insiders…
Brilliantly put, TP.
The journos want a “contest” to write about, so they can scribble their ball-by-ball descriptions. They need a Liberal Party that can fight, or be written up as fighting. Paul Daly has a double in the Sun-Herald and the Age today about how Turnbull has “rattled” Rudd.
He wishes.
socrates @ 29
The point is not how much time Rudd spends overseas. He can spend 100 days overseas depending on what he is doing. The PM can go as often as he likes as long as he is doing something constructive. And it is not as though in this day of modern communicatios it as though he is not here.
The murdoch journos are not discussing the purpose or appropriateness of Rudd’s trips, they think they have a talking point with which to criticise. They would criticise his shoes if they thought it could cost him votes.
A story in The Age that Xenephon and Fielding are now opposing the health care budget measures! Are they just trying to get a moment in the sun? Xenephon’s reasons seem nonsensical:
“But Senator Xenophon said the rise in the threshold was inequitable, as it was double the rate of inflation, and has suggested a change of $70,000 for singles and $135,00 for couples.”
How is it inequitable to increase the number of people who don’t have to pay? Doesn’t that increase equity? He goes on to talk about pressure on public hospitals but this ignores the fact that much of the private health isurance rebates do NOT take pressure of public hospitals. The money savd would be far better put back into public hospitals directly. This is just spin. Does anyone know if he has an ideological stance on this or does he just want to make another deal? I have already said Fielding is just reverting to his true form, so no surprises there.
I am not sure if this last fabricated attack (another coordinated effort to help Turnbull as they did with Nelson? Watch the Liberal MPs to join in.) will only serve to help focus on Rudd’s trip and benefit him when they see what he is up to.
Good to see they help raise the profile of Gillard in the process.
LOL… Oakes reckons Turnbull being an ex-merchant banker is a PLUS for his prospects!
Oh, please, spare me…
Socrates,
“Inequitable” probably is the wrong word to describe Roxon’s changes to the Medicare threshold.
“Stupid” would be a better word for the changes.
No-one really knows what the effect of these changes on the public system will be (Roxon has said as much herself, when trying to attack the opponents of the changes). So fine, increase the threshold by all means (the Libs should have indexed it anyway), but why double the threshold in one single bound?
In the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby, “a very courageous decision, Minister”.
Xenephon’s position on the Medicare Levy Surcharge bill is simple. He wants to straddle the fence and be seen to be negotiating for the good of all Australia so that it increases the perception of him being fair and independent. That’s what he’ll always do… position himself somewhere in between the Government and Opposition and craft an argument as to why his position in the most sensible.
By the way, it’s all well and good to say the increase in threshold will free up lots of money for the public system.
Fine in theory, but in practice, the State health bureaucracies seem to have, er, a bit of trouble turning dollars into doctors, nurses and facilities.
Medical admin always seems to do ok, though.
Dyno, the real question is why not? Most modelling that has been conducted by independent sources (read, not the private health industry) puts the effects of the proposed changes to the MLST as minimal.
It doesn’t even make sense in a liberal perspective as to why there should be a medicare levy surcharge. Surely if people want private health cover it shouldn’t be subsidised by any means.
ltep,
Modelling is only modelling, whoever does it. Why make the change in a single jump?
As cunning as a dunny rat.
Andrew Charlton, The Age, 30 September 2007:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/pm-of-ulterior-motives/2007/09/29/1190486626917.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Glad to see Glen Milne on Insiders call this a ping-pong (ie. small) bounce. Even Milne can contain his excitement sometimes!!
As for the other Glen, we’re still waiting for the budget bounce, Rein bounce, scores bounce, anzac bounce etc etc, so I suppose we can add Turbnull bounce to that list. As has been pointed out, new leaders bounces especially Rudd’s was significant and immediate
The problem for Turnbull with this poll is that people seem to have a strong view one way or the other. If they were positive strong views or even strong neutral views (ie most hadn’t made up their minds) their would be little to be concerned about at this stage. The difficulty, as Beazley found out, is that when the population largely see you in a particular way, changing that perception is an extremely difficult task.
GB,
I basically agree with you. I don’t see Turnbull as an election-winning leader for the Libs. But I do see him as a leader who will (probably) cement their support amongst their traditional supporters, and therefore possibly limit the damage at the next election, damage that would have been significant with Nelson as leader.
People don’t seem to like Turnbull, and even though they think he’s clever, that’s probably not enough by itself.
The correct analogies here are the previous instances of failed opposition leaders being replaced. When Crean replaced Beazley, my recollection is he got no bounce – as a leader he was DOA. When Latham replaced Crean, he got a big bounce, which he proceeded to squander. When Beazley replaced Latham, he got only a modest bounce, not surprising since he was hardly a fresh face. When Rudd replaced Beazley, he got a huge bounce, which he rode until the election. The same thing happened when Howard replaced Downer in 1995. But the Rudd and Howard bounces were both against long-serving governments, when the voters were in search of an alternative leader. Here we have a failed opposition leader being replaced very early in a government’s term, when there is no evidence that the voters have lost confidence in the PM. So we would expect only a modest Turnbull bounce, and one he will have to work hard to maintain. My view is that Turnbull gives the Libs a somewhat improved chance of winning in 2010, but not much. Rudd can certainly lose in 2010, but if does it will be because he has been overwhelmed by external circumstances (the Scullin scenario), not because of anything Turnbull represents or does. And, as we have seen this week, Turnbull has plenty of vulnerablilities for Labor to exploit.
Cuppa @ 41,
An interesting perspective, but not the only one.
The other way of looking at it is we now seem to have vast health bureaucracies, who know that the larger the public system’s market share gets, the more entrenched is their position.
15 gusface. amazing article on Rudd “losing touch”. It refers to letters to the editor and talkback radio! And then to top is off it gets a quote from van Onselen ffs.
Yes you’re right that the MSM helps drive perceprtion, but geez when you’re dealing with such usless journalism as that, Rudd is best off doing what he wants, because no doubt anything he does is going to be spun against him
Adam,
I agree with you, the Scullin scenario is the only one in which the Libs have a realistic chance in 2010, based on what we currently know.
I am a Liberal supporter, but I’d much rather have another term of Rudd Labor, than the Scullin scenario! So would anyone who is sane.
We went through all this last year and again are having to endure it. What’s it?
The Canberra Press Gallery’s view of the world. Truly only a colonoscopy can work out what some of them are actually seeing.
Once again, we see the Gallery with little or no idea about what is going on outside the bubble in which they live.
They proclaim this week that the ALP is very nervous about Turnbull’s ascension to the throne; that Turnbull will bring an air of excitement and engagement; and most importantly, his banking experience will make it very difficult for the ALP to deal with him on “the economy”.
They said exactly the same thing when he was appointed shadow Treasurer and what happened? Of course, I will use objective data only, as opposed to who knows what subjective data the Gallery use?
Following the budget this was the perception of the voters:
Galaxy 19 May 2008
“Some 36 per cent of voters believe Mr Swan would be the better economic manager over Liberal shadow treasurer Malcolm Turnbull, who rated 25 per cent.”
Newspoll 20 May 2008
“During the budget period, Mr Swan has overtaken Mr Turnbull on the question of who would make the better Treasurer, to lead by 40 per cent over Mr Turnbull’s 26 per cent.
The Coalition has also lost its mantle as preferred economic manager to the Labor Government, with 52 per cent saying the Coalition could not deliver a better budget, to 29 per cent who said it could.”
And today’s Galaxy says:
“Kevin Rudd leads Malcolm Turnbull as preferred leader (PM) 58 to 28 per cent.”
Just because they wish something to be a particular way, doesn’t mean it is, or ever will be.
What is the reality as opposed to the parallel universe of the Gallery?
Despite all the fanfare and excitement, boring old Wayne Swan out polled Malcolm Turnbull as preferred Treasurer and Rudd easily out polled him as preferred PM. It’s Turnbull and the Coalition who need to boost their economic credibility, not Rudd, Swan or the ALP.
Now, I am pleased Turnbull is leading the Liberal Party, for various reasons, not least of which is he a return to the traditional Australian Liberal Party, not some foreign branch of the US Republican Party; and I fully expect he and the Coalition to improve in the polls (as I’ve noted over on the marsupial’s site). But again we see the Gallery’s lack of insight in this matter as poor as their lack of insight in last year’s election campaign.
It’s disturbing to think how much they get wrong, yet are convinced they are so right.
48 dyno. Bravo.
have to say I missed the first 20 minutes of Insiders (came in during Paul Kelly). I didn’t think it was all that bad. Made some good points about Turnbull doing well on the initial response to the Republican wedge, and Rudd’s local mayor’s forum was also very poorly timed.
Though if earlier they were going on about Rudd being nervous I’d understand the criticism. On Friday morning on Fran Kelly she was practically saying Rudd was in a pool of nervous sweat, and that she wouldn’t mind bearing Malcolm’s children should the opportunity arise.
The only thing I will say about the Scullin scenario is that communications being what they are today most people I would think don’t see Rudd as the cause of the world’s economic problems. If they did it would be showing up in the polls. Besides, as Aristotle points out the Libs are not seen as the great economic masters now. I’m not convinced people would just naturally put the Libs in under the Scullin scenario.
had a sleep in and haven’t read previous posts yet so apologies if someone has already mentioned this.
Sky Nooz trying to turn a negative into a positive for Allbull with this headline
“Malcolm Turnbull has trounced PM Rudd in one new poll” it goes on to say that the topic was arrogance but perceptions and a quick glance at a news headline would give the immpression that it was a PPM poll they were talking about.
After the WorkChoices assault on workers’ pay and conditions – during a boomtime – I think it highly unlikely the Liberals will be given the guernsey during a downtime.
I think those seeing the Scullin governments probelms only in terms of the Great Depression need to look a bit deeper. Certainly the depression played its part in the defeat of the government but it was by no means the only thing. That government had its own set of problems that this one doesn’t have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Scullin
GB, the Wall St Crash came a week after Scullin took office. His whole PMship was dominated by it. Since he faced a hostile Senate, a hostile High Court and a hostile Commonwealth Bank board (this was before the RBA was created), he was totally powerless, even if he had had a plan to deal with the Depression, which he didn’t. The only minister with any understanding of Keynesian economics was Theodore, but he was ruined by the Mungana scandal. Scullin had to go to London to beg the City for emergency loans. Then he was forced to agree to the deflationary Premiers’ Plan, and as a result the ALP split into three factions (Lang to the left, Lyons to the right), and in 1931 he was voted out (much to his relief) when Lang’s faction crossed the floor.
Adam, my point exactly. A government with scandal, division on how to proceed. Not exactly a government you could have confidence in in troubled times was it?
It was no more or less competent than any other Australian government. Scullin had considerable financial expertise and Theodore had been a successful premier of Qld. They were simply overwhelmed by events far beyond the control of a government of a small country dependent on agricultural exports and tied umbillically to the City of London. Who coped better? Hoover, MacDonald, Bruning? As for scandal, the Mungana royal commission was dragged out by the conservative Qld government to bring down Theodore. He was never charged and it’s never been proved that he acted corruptly.
It wasn’t just Scullin. During those years, just about every govt was voted out. However, I doubt we’ll have another great depression, as govts are much more pro-active these days – even the current US administration has bailed out companies.
Turnbull may need to watch his back. If he stumbles, the 41 members who voted against him may still be ready to stick the knife in.
[Asked whether her son would have made a good prime minister, Ms Nelson suggested his quest for the top office “May Not be Finished”.
“Well, I’m not sure that the fat lady still doesn’t have a bit of a croak,” she said with a smile.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24376596-5007133,00.html
Nothing you have said there takes away from my point. That being that a government with a perception of scandal and division is not exactly a government you could have confidence in in troubled times.
Add to that my points made at 51 and the “Scullin scenario” is not as clear cut as it seems.
Scorpio, why do you think Nelson went to the back bench? He’s waiting for the fall.
Lyons, Menzies and Howard the best three conservative leaders this country has had.
Interesting that Lyons was a former Labor man just like Turnbull.
While the UAP had problems of its own it was still more of a broad church than the current Liberal Party.
Turnbull should take a lesson from Howard & Costello’s experience & stear well clear of this mob.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24378982-5007133,00.html
They don’t give up too easily!
Glen, Turnbull has denied ever having been a Labor man, despite having been business partners with Neville Wran and Nick Whitlam. Do you know better?
Glen, your definition of best seems to be based on time in office. Menzies I have no difficulty with, nor Lyons (being an ex Labor man) although I know little about him or his government. However I have great difficulty with Howard. Can not agree with you on that at all. He got what he deserved IMHO.
Kev will be going flat chat, so how long before the media switch from Allbulls lead calling him a tourist on an OS jolly, to scare mongering about heart attacks and a too fast pace again?
http://news.smh.com.au/national/finance-climate-change-on-rudds-agenda-20080921-4kry.html
“Mr Rudd touches down in New York late Monday (about 1500 AEST Tuesday) and will attend the opening of the UN General Assembly the next morning.
On Wednesday, he will take part in a Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting on reform of financial regulation, where he will speak about international institutions.
Mr Rudd will give an address to the UN General Assembly on Thursday, where he will focus on climate change and financial regulation in his presentation.
He will inform world leaders about Australia’s $100 million plan to develop a new global carbon capture and storage institute.
The new institute would start out in Australia with the objective of helping meet the G8 commitment to have at least 20 industrial scale-carbon capture and storage projects in operation by 2020.
His packed itinerary also includes a roundtable discussion on health and education, and another on climate change.
He will renew his acquaintance with US President George W Bush at a commemoration service for the fallen in Iraq, and will host a meeting of prime ministers and foreign ministers from small-island nations.
In between official functions, Mr Rudd will meet a variety of world leaders.
He is expected to have formal bilateral meetings with more than a dozen world leaders, as well as informal meetings with another 10 to 15 leaders.
Mr Rudd flies out of New York on Thursday evening.”
Gary Bruce @ 61,
As soon as Nelson rejected Turnbull’s offer of a “front bench” position and saide he preferred to return to the back bench, I thought that he had no intention to just accept it meekly.
Nelson made it quite clear on numerous occasions that he wanted to lead the Libs to the next election and that he was the best person for the job.
Ambition is a strange animal. It can cloud ones’ judgement re ones’ abilities and is an unreliable reinforcement of ones’ ego. Classic example=Turnbull.
Though he did consider or did lobby Keating for a Senate spot.
Still while not a Labor member he did have his leanings.
Vera can’t Smith do all that? Hell Howard wouldnt have Downer would have done things like that back in the day!
…and won’t be going to the cricket like his predecessor
Glen, Turbull has flatly denied that story. I note than Glen considers his new leader to be a liar.
Hi Glen have you been in touch with your unc’e Howard lately, and why not use him on your avatar? lol
Sending our foreign minister to have 1 on 1 meetings with 20 to 30 world leaders might seem a tad disrespectful don’t you think?
All i know about ‘that’ came from people on pollbludger, so i guess i’ve been had, oh dear.
No i dont consider Malcolm to be a liar.
If he has said it was bull butter then butter bull it is.
Vera Rudd in 300 days has spent 50 of them overseas, Unca Howie spent just 18 nights in his first year in Government.
Turnbull is right to point out we have a Prime Tourist!
The US can get away with that, but not us
Howard spent 64 days overseas in 2002, 60 days in 2003, and 65 days in 2005
Adam I knew there would come a day when I would be in violent agreement with Glen. He’s becoming a soft old lefty isn’t he? I alsojust like Glen, consider Talcum could be capable of being loose with the truth.
by the way Rudd is going he’ll spend 100 days overseas in a possible second/third term
Vera, the media’s fixation on comparing the number of OS trips by Rudd compared to Howard misses a crutial difference between the two leaders.
The difference being that Rudd’s trips have all had an underlining agenda of issues that are of benefit both immediate and long term to this country.
With most of Howard’s trips, this was never apparent to the same degree, in fact, many of them were blatant exercises in kowtowing to powerful leaders in order to try and show him as being a mover and shaker on the world scene and with some influence.
In this regard he generally failed whereas people can see that Rudd is clearly being accepted by influential leaders as a person of substance that has much to offer and somebody that they can do business with and who’s opinion is worth taking notice of.
The reason Rudd has to spend more time overseas than Howard did is that he has to clean up after Howard’s criminal neglect on issues like climate change, and to reassert Australia’s battered international image following years of Howard “metooism” to the Bush administration.
I call BS
Glen,
Don’t feel bad about mentioning Turnbull’s “Labor experiment”.
The MSM has been putting this idea forward for some time now.
Glen #73…
Glen, please explain why Rudd is bound to copy Howard in every respect, including days spent overseas. Was a law passed in the dying days of the Howard government requiring new governments and Prime Ministers not to deviate from Howard’s Way? If so, please link to it.
I find the media’s constantly comparing Rudd’s behavior with howard’s behavioral benchmarks to be excruciatingly cringeworthy. Why can’t these people (and their me-too yes men like Glen) get used to the idea that
(a) Howard was defeated decisively.
(b) There is no Messiah.
(c) The last election wasn’t a mistake.
(d) Government will not be regained via trick questions in QT.
(e) Rudd and his government are unprecedently popular, gor good reason.
(f) John Howard is not the arbiter of good taste and judgement in all matters political.
Adam, it was thanks to Howard we have become a genuine middle power and one that is fully engaged in the Asian region. I hardly think Australia’s national image suffered during Howard’s rule.
Rudd doesnt need to spend all this time overseas, why not let his foreign minister do it? Well that’s because Rudd wants to be Foreign Minister too! He loves traveling more than being at home and dealing with bread and butter issues. But if he wants to Swan about overseas and let Malcolm tear shreads off Julia then that’s ok.
scorpio
and whatabout those Howie trips staying with his good buddy Bush at the ranch.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. You should get out more.
The day anyone tears a shred off Julia is the day pigs (with or without lipstick) will fly. Have you watched QT lately, Glen? Did you see her at the Press Club last week? She just gets better and better.
You think our FM will often get to meet Bush in face to face talks?
Glen, he may also do the opposite of Howard and not overseas on many occasions the next couple of years. You just don’t know that. Besides who in the hell made Howard the yardstick?
I’m detecting Glen that you are not defending Malcolm as strongly as you could. Any reason for that?
Oh Glen! “let Malcolm tear shreads off Julia” that’s why i like you, you’re always good for a belly laugh! You’ve made my Sunday you ‘av, thanks lol.
The current Labor government is composed largely of people of the (pre-defection) Lyons type of are in the ALP but are economically conservative.
Dario i’ve been overseas for the past 4 months and nobody had a bad thing to say about Australia!
…under a Rudd government
91 Overseas they think Liberal means progressive. Hope you enjoyed the confusion Glen because we know that here Liberal means tory.
The Telegraph has an interview with Brenda’s mum saying he may not have given up on the idea of becoming PM. better watch your back there Talcum.
92 – Glen, an own goal.
Glen Milne’s take on Rudd’s trip is unusual in that it is a reasonably balanced take on it.
A number of posters were understandably critical considering their political affiliation but one did really have a telling point. Take note Glen!
And this.
And this.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24377088-5007132,00.html
Nobody says a bad word about Italy either, it’s a beautiful country – but everybody knows it’s the worst governed country in Europe.
Now that Costello is definitely going, Milne needs a new padrone – maybe he’s offering his poison pen to the service of the new guy in town.
No 41
If you ask the average NSW voter if they think the ALP stands for strong public services, I think they’d have a starkly different opinion than the blinkered rubbish that Mr Charlton is promulgating.
I heard that Milne wanders the corridors of Parliament House every night crying out “is there anyone out there”? “Is there anyone out there”?
It would be interesting to see the number of days Menzies spent overseas in his first term as PM. I recall that one trip to London went for about six weeks!
The number of days spent overseas is immaterial, it is the worth of the time that is the real question. It seems to me that this trip of Rudds is valuable. So were most of Howards although like much of his administration he became more selfindulgent in the latter stages of his reign, at about the time journalists and others were proclaiming him invulnerable.
No 79
Dudd only seems to be good at attending gab-fests Adam. When is he going to do something?
No 92
Dario, such insolence is intolerable. During Howard’s reign I travelled to the US, throughout Europe, Asia and the south pacific and not once was I confronted with a negative opinion of Australia.
The left’s constant assertion that our international image has suffered under Howard is an undeniable nonsense; a figment of their collectivist imaginations.
He’s been doing lots of things GP. Just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t make them not exist.
I have travelled to Europe, the US & Canada and Asia before, during and after Howard. While most people overseas don’t pay that much attention to Australia’s role internationally, there was definitely a change with those that did.
SNIP: Name-calling deleted – The Management.
Gary, hardly how many people are going to notice we have a new PM after 12 years of the same bloke, anyway what Howard did over 12 years helped us on the international world stage Rudd has been in for what almost a year so i hardly think 1 year of a new government would make any difference to already formed views.
No 105
Rubbish Dario. The reality is that nobody cares what Australia does on climate change given that we contribute a fraction of the world’s total emissions. Rudd’s globe-trotting might be giving him, and his worshippers, an over-heightened sense of self-importance.
Typical Liberals, running Australia down as always. You guys should stick to your talking points and not try to ad lib.
No 109
I’m not running Australia down at all. I’m simply looking at reality, a state of mind from which many here seem quite distant.
It’s no use GP most bloggers think Rudd is the best thing since sliced bread.
The thing is if Howard had done such a bad job and made us look so terrible in the views of people around the world i hardly think changing leaders would automatically stop this and thus since I encountered no anamosity i think i can say Howie did a bang up job
This week is going to be interesting a new Liberal leader and Labor Rudderless and as usual i suspect termoil and mayhem on the ALP side.
Apologising to the Aboriginies actually was quite a big deal overseas. I had Canadian business colleagues bringing it up.
SNIP: Comment bereft of political argument deleted – The Management.
With Gillard as Acting PM, this week’s QTs will be a bloodbath. She doesn’t play nice like Rudd does. They’ll be scraping Turnbull off the walls after she has done her Thatcher routine on him.
Pies is out to do his bit for the Turnbull cause. A new “Messiah” has arrived.
A quick glance at the comments was good for a laugh. I hope these delusional people stay there. I couldn’t stand reading their twisted logic too often. Check these two.
Please don’t go there if you are easily offended or don’t have a good sense of humour.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/piersakerman/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/turnbull_needs_some_mongrel/
SNIP: Comment bereft of political argument deleted – The Management.
No 112
Yeah, and 6 months later, the plight of Aborigines has not changed. The challenges remain of the same magnitude.
Glen #107:
Even if that is true, let’s not even begin the process of changing the perception others have of us, eh?
What an ignorant argument that is. Nothing at all would be achieved in any area of human endavour if instant results were required.
No roads built, no new aircraft designed, no computer software written, no scientific breakthroughs, not even the first tortured beginnings on the road to redepmtion for the Liberal Party… nothing, if instant sucess was the criterion.
Gold!
No 115
Oh dear. I cannot believe Piers is still going on about Heiner. Give it up already.
Speaking of mayhem and turmoil, has Turnbull rounded up enough laggards to form a Shadow Cabinet yet? Barnaby doesn’t seem convinced about the new ship.
After nothing constructive being done for 30 years you think it can be fixed in 10 months? Puhleese. Private industry getting ivolved in providing jobs for Aborigines is a pretty good start. Let’s see how it’s going in a few years shall we?
Perhaps Adam, but at least Malcolm has the balls to face the music, unlike Kevin Rudd who as Opposition Leader only ever faced the Government benches when he had to ask a question. Malcolm looks em all right in the face, he’s got more guts than Rudd that’s for starters.
Glen, in my many trips overseas a lot of people have commented on a dislike for John Howard and have stated joy at ‘that horrible man’ being kicked out. Of course, it could all have been a coincidence…
Of course, it’s a bit rich criticising Rudd for spending time overseas on business 1 week after Mr Turnbull ‘jetsetted’ back from Italy where he was reportedly lounging on beaches.
I’ve said before that Turnbull is a dud… will be interesting to see if he turns out to be one over the coming years.
No Glen, Turnbull turned his back during QT several times last week. It’s a standard opposition tactic.
No 124
LOL Itep. Yeah, I’m sure the billions of people overseas really care about JWH or K.Rudd
117 “Yeah, and 6 months later, the plight of Aborigines has not changed. The challenges remain of the same magnitude.”
People skills Abbott spent three months recently at a remote aboriginal community in Far North Queensland and comes back screaming that he doesn’t want the Communities Shadow portfolio because it is too far from the action,GP. So what is your point?
Itep its not surprising the people you hang around are left wing, but that’s not the majority of opinions just a select few.
Bah, he didnt turn his back for half of question time like Rudd, he was doing it to organise questions.
Even Rudd doesnt face the Opposition in QT!
Three points to make about Rudd’s overseas travel:
1. Does it ever occur to the media and other detractors that there are bound to be some years when more overseas travel is necessary than others? There is a lot going on in the world at the moment.
2. Rudd is clearly a leader who likes to gather all the facts first and then make his decisions – a very sensible approach IMHO. Hence his need to visit various parts of the globe in his first year to gather knowledge first hand. It’s not popular with the mischief makers who don’t want to know about all the hard preparatory work going on behind the scenes and just want everything fixed NOW, but in the overall scheme of things their opinions count for very little.
3.. Judging by the current polls, the electorate is not the least bit concerned over this bogus issue. it is only people with ulterior motives and nothing more constructive to say who are pursuing it.
(GB Liked your point about “who the hell made John Howard’s overseas travel the yardstick”. Who indeed)?
Ah, back to your old name calling best GP. That’s when I know you’re on the ropes.
Sorry, people skills spent three weeks…
Adam:
Thanks for the Sculin info
As for Stanley Bruce, i was highly amused to see that the defence of him published in the Australian just before the 2007 election deliberately didn’t mention his racism and support of White Australia or his anti-semitism
And a selective yardstick at that. Howard spent 64 days overseas in 2002, 60 days in 2003, and 65 days in 2005.
Goodness me Glen is pyschic! He knows what is in Turnbull’s mind when he turns his back in QT! “Turning one’s back” is a standard QT tactic, Glen, everyone does it – Howard, Nelson, Beazley, Rudd. I wouldn’t hang my hat on this one if I were you.
Urm, well, we all supported White Australia back then Mary. I wouldn’t try to score points with that one.
Adam still you have to admit Rudd did use it more than usual when he was Opposition Leader.
In Curtin’s famous speech in 1942 when he pledged to defend the Australian continent etc etc, he actually said “defend it for the white race,” but that bit always gets edited out. There is now a bipartisan agreement to pretend that White Australia never happened.
I admit nothing.
As Adam said Mary back then holding such views was not considered racist, quite the contrary.
Surely I can’t be the only one who doesn’t understand what’s so great about Andrew Robb… yet he’s a candidate for Shadow Treasurer and was Foreign Affairs? Is it just party politics?
129 Darn, you’re speaking too much sense son. Where’s the naming calling and rash predictions based on bias and bile?
Or two ‘Wongs dont make a White’ another Labor politician.
Fact is both sides supported it for a very very long time.
This Howard “yardstick” concept is a hangover from the days when Howard was king. They just can’t get used to the idea that comparing Rudd “unfavourably with Howard is likely to garner Rudd MORE kudos than not.
Over at Pies’ redoubt at the Sunday Telegraph:
Such molehills of denialism in the face of mountain ranges of evidence to the contrary is truly gob-smacking. One thing you have to grant the Coalition acolytes: they don’t give up.
This is Turnbull’s greatest mistake, in my opinion. He keeps on about the “next election” like a flattened prizefighter demanding a rematch. The public has little or no interest in the next election. Only the Libs share that with a few deluded die-hards in tow. Elections solve very little inand of themselves. It’s policy, soundly based, calmly implemented, not shot from the hips of the latest focus group, that counts.
I wasn’t trying to score points – i was just struck as you are by how White Australia is edited out a lot – and not just by Anglos – various minority groups want to pretend things like Charlie Chan and the various wartime cartoons (eg “Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips”) never happened by suppressing them
In fact for most of that time even the word “racism” didn’t exist. The OED dates it to 1936. It wouldn’t have been widely used in Australia until the 1960s.
Despite what I said above, I will defend Calwell on the “two Wongs” line.
From the Wikipedia Calwell article (which I wrote):
Calwell’s remark in Parliament in 1947 that “Two Wongs don’t make a White” is widely quoted. The remark was intended as a joke, being a reference to a Chinese resident called Wong who was wrongly threatened with deportation, and a Liberal MP, Sir Thomas White. Today the remark is seen as evidence that Calwell was a racist.
Calwell later wrote: “It is important to me, at least, to set about the facts about [this] remark, which have been misrepresented so often it has become tiresome… I said, among other things, that an error may have been made in the case of two men named Wong. I then said, and I quote from Hansard, ‘There are many Wongs in the Chinese community, but I have to say – and I am sure that the Honourable Member for Balaclava [Thomas White] will not mind me doing so – that “two Wongs do not make a White”.’ It was a jocose remark, made partly at the expense of the member for Balaclava… Hon T.W. White. I expected that I would have been correctly reported, as I was in Hansard, and that the initial letter ‘W’ on both the names ‘Wong’ and ‘White’ would have been written in capitals. But [later] the name of White was deliberately altered into a definition of colour, so as to read ‘two Wongs don’t make a white.’ … There was never any intention in my mind to raise any question of colour.”[2]
In his 1978 biography of Calwell, Colm Kiernan wrote: “Was Calwell a racist? All Australians who upheld the White Australia policy were racist in the sense that they upheld a policy which discriminated against coloured migrants… Calwell never denied the discriminatory reality of the laws: ‘It is true that a measure of discrimination on racial grounds is exercised in the administration of our immigration policy.’ But he did not consider himself to be superior to any Asian.”[3] Calwell also said in Parliament: “I have no racial animosity.”[4]. Kiernan further says: “Calwell had many friends among the Chinese community in Melbourne. This would have been impossible if he had been prejudiced against them. Anthony Wang, the first Chinese councillor of the City of Melbourne, has acknowledged Calwell’s support and friendship. He liked the Chinese people so much that he learnt Mandarin in which language he could converse.”[5]
Kiernan is correct to observe that until the 1950s virtually all Australians supported the White Australian policy, that Calwell’s views were entirely within the political mainstream at that time, and Calwell believed himself to be free of personal prejudice against people of other races. But these observations must be set against Calwell’s comments in his 1972 memoirs, Be Just and Fear Not, in which he made it clear that he maintained his view that non-European people should not be allowed to settle in Australia. He wrote: “I am proud of my white skin, just as a Chinese is proud of his yellow skin, a Japanese of his brown skin, and the Indians of their various hues from black to coffee-coloured. Anybody who is not proud of his race is not a man at all. And any man who tries to stigmatize the Australian community as racist because they want to preserve this country for the white race is doing our nation great harm… I reject, in conscience, the idea that Australia should or ever can become a multi-racial society and survive.”[6]
I’ve got news for you Glen. Rudd didn’t face the government in QT when in opposition and look where that got him.
Glen
When MPs of either side use QT to beat the opposition around the ears with irrelevancies, instead of answering the question, I think turning one’s back is a very reasonable response to it. As much as some would like to see it, the rules of etiquette simply don’t apply in the bear pit of parliament. Mooning would probably be considered a bit over the top though – as entertaining as it might be for the TV audience and the public gallery.
One thing in particular I have noticed whenever Journalists report on issues such as Rudd’s OS travel, is that they usually give it a slightly negative slant, rarely provide any positive benefits from it and “always” provide a comment from a Coalition Member who is most likely to be decisively negative. A classic example is this piece by Phillip Coorey where his LNP spokesperson of choice is Barnaby Joyce.
Notice that the whole article, headline included, is written from a Coalition perspective and this has become so common now that it has pretty well become the norm.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/no-place-like-home-libs-tell-rudd/2008/09/19/1221331206999.html
I doubt Barnaby Joyce could find “overseas” on a map if you gave him all day.
No 149
Scorpio, nothing “positive” is reported about the overseas trip because nothing fruitful is likely to emerge from the gab-fest.
That said, I really don’t have an issue with overseas travel by the PM.
Also notice that even though the global financial system is in turmoil, the US system in meltdown and that this could have grave ramifications for this country, that the main concern for the LNP is pushing for a $30 per week rise for single pensioners. LOL
And not a word of concern re this attitude of Barnaby’s by Phillip Coorey.
Looks like Bill Shorten is getting his rocks off with Quentin Bryce’s daughter. Ah, the ALP soap-opera continues unabated:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/alp-stars-new-life-with-ggs-daughter/2008/09/20/1221331276472.html
Definitely one out of the blue. He had high prospects but I reckon they will take a serious hit over this.
No 154
Could never understand why Shorten was couched as a “star”. From the few performances I’ve seen on Q&A, he never appeared to be anything special. At least Maxine appears to have potential.
He’s always come across to me as very down to earth, and I guess that is what the prospects were based on. Maxine I haven’t been as convinced about, but then I haven’t seen much of her lately.
GP,
You conservatives seem to have a thing about scandal and gossip. Pies Akerman certainly added his bit in his latest blog.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/piersakerman/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/turnbull_needs_some_mongrel/
Of course, people out here in the general community are going to be horrified by this revelation. It has such a major impact on the governing of the country!
I think we can safely say that Bill Shorten’s chances of becoming prime minister are now pretty much out the window. Even Bob Hawke had enough political nous to wait until he left politics before leaving wife Hazel to marry Blanche D’alpuget..
Actually Hazel left him. She only stayed for the sake of the party.
Not a very good start for Quentin Bryce either, with two of her five children now in the news in a negative kind of way.
Adam,
I hope they’re not catholics. Going straight to the fires of hell doesn’t seem to good to me.
Darn,
Two down, three to go. LOL
Scorpio, if there is a lower piece of scum in Australian public life than Ackerman, I’m glad I don’t know they are.
Turnbull seems to be doing a Nelson regarding the $6b budget black hole.
“It is a drop in the ocean in a one trillion economy”, now it’s “Clearly, $6 billion is a gigantic amount of money in anyone’s terms,”
But;
“It’s a huge amount of money”,
But;
“(but) it would reduce government revenues by less than half of one per cent.”
But then he says,
“We’re not threatening the economy, we’re not vandalising the budget.”
The next six Months are going to be very interesting. I love the headline.
http://news.theage.com.au/national/well-block-gigantic-money-turnbull-20080921-4kty.html
Adam,
How right you are.
I don’t read any of his stuff very often and never straight after a meal.
It’s very hard to hold it down after reading any of his bile.
(163)
Got it in one Adam.
I’ve come in late. In reference to comments in the early 100s, Howard’s demise was met with considerable satisfaction on this international blog. Some of the comments from outside Australia are revealing
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/11/24/howard/
(NOTE: If an ad gate presents, please click the “Enter Salon” red button, top right.)
An update on the sales of Costello’s book. Things aren’t going too well. Looks like Barnaby Joyce was right – the sales would improve if it was printed on softer paper!
http://www.theage.com.au/national/seller-or-cellar-costello-book-ailing-20080920-4knm.html
Cuppa,
Great link. I immediately bookmarked that to re-read whenever I feel that the Rudd Government is not quite reaching my quite high expectations of it.
Some books are bought and read (Mr Greedy).
Some books are bought and meant to be read (Mr Uppity).
Some books are bought and never read (Mr Lazy).
Some books aren’t bought (The Costello Memoirs).
A bit of wishful thinking here, I believe. Apparently the thought that people couldn’t give a toss and don’t wish to part with their “hard earned” to read Costello’s self promotion, doesn’t come under his consideration.
David, there is no confusion. We were all more than aware about the book launch.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/seller-or-cellar-costello-book-ailing-20080920-4knm.html
Hi Scorpio,
I’m glad you enjoyed it. Yes, we did a very good thing last November. Can you imagine old Howard still araldited to seat now the Presidential race is on?
lol what a load of tosh
I buy most political books, I even bought Barnett’s tedious tome on Howard, and even (Gough forgive me) the L*tham Diaries. If Howard writes a memoir, I will buy it. But I feel not the slightest twinge of interest in Costello’s memoirs. They will be like him – shallow, preening, hypocritical, complacent, superficial, conceited, cowardly and ultimately a flop.
I find it astonishing that Piers could actually be paid for the tripe he serves up. The BEST poll the opposition has had is 46% 2PP and he talks about a one-term government?? Surely its a comedy routine
For those who haven’t seen it Bob Ellis writes a scathing review of Costello’s memoirs for blog Unleashed:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2367943.htm
151 [Scorpio, nothing “positive” is reported about the overseas trip because nothing fruitful is likely to emerge from the gab-fest.
That said, I really don’t have an issue with overseas travel by the PM.]
GP,I’m finding it very difficult to understand how the two halves match. If there is no issue why comment on it? And should we ignore the first proposition in favour of the second?
“A blandly written work of narcissistic obfuscation”. Love it.
I immodestly remind Bludgers that, on the old PB blog, I predicted Costello would go from rooster to remainder bin in 10 days. So far, five days have elapsed.
Our local bookstore in Beecroft, Sydney (Ruddock territory) has gone from $44.95 (top price) to $29.95 yesterday late.
The teasers they had in the papers looked dull so I can hardly blame anyone for not wanting to buy it. To sell a political book you need to either have some pretty caustic material or something that can cause some type of scandal/stir (e.g. an affair).
Emm… Bob Ellis a bit more careful this time around…
Didn’t one of his books cost a far bit in a defamation case ?
Ellis dubs it “an ill-written sentence”, and wonders why Cozzie didn’t put anything at all of that particular kerfuffle in the book.
Steve Fielding out-doing Turnbull on the hardships of the early days. What a clown.
Please make sure that the tissues are ready to hand before you read this tome.
The rest of it about not being “obstructionist” in the Senate is quite strange too. Maybe he is positioning himself to take over the Lib leadership when Turnbull crashes & burns.
http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/we-wont-be-obstructionist-20080921-4ktk.html?page=-1
I heard Fielding was to merge his party with Malcolm’s and call it Liberal Families First Party.
{Brendan Nelson might well be thinking about his future after recent events. Here’s a thought: why doesn’t he move to state politics? In fact, why don’t Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey and other talented members of the Coalition consider the same move?]
I would have thought the NSW Liberal Party had enough problems without adding this lot to the mix.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/articles/2008/09/19/1221331252912.html
I have to admit, the current fare offered up by the MSM is proving to be quite amusing.
how about putting Rudd’s time away into perspective, Howard spent more days overseas in 2002-2003 and 2005 than what Rudd is putting in this year, { go google} if i remember rightly most of Howards junkets seemed to end up with him comfortably seated at the cricket or tennis or in Bush’s holiday palace, the world wasnt going through a economy crisis at that point, one that requires the critical hands on responsability of all the main world leaders to avert a complete meltdown, any lib sychophant who cant or refuses to see the difference in circumstance is a hypocrite.
I went to a remainders bookshop yesterday; was very disappointed not to find a stack of the memoirs there. Oh well, next week no doubt.
164 scorpio – what an amazingly incoherent arguement Turnbull is puuting forawrd:
“It’s a huge amount of money, but the point is Labor stands up there and says we’re seeking to vandalise the budget … (but) it would reduce government revenues by less than half of one per cent.”
so it’s huge, it’s gigantic, but it’s small, it’s just rhetoric.
(no doubt Wayne Swan has sdent him a message thanking him for the free kick)
Janet Albrechtsen is just about wetting her pants in today’s blog piece:
Oh really? While Turnbull is languishing in Canberra, Rudd will be in the centre of the world financial crisis, talking to those who are trying to fix it, on our behalf.
I know where I’d rather be if I wished to remain relevant.
185 scorpio – I’ve long thought hockey should have gone back to NSW. Nelson and Abbott doing the same might just be seen as overkill! (or rats fleeing a sinking ship)
Cuppa,
I don’t think you can leave out the nats in this.
The National Liberal Country Families First Party.
Luxury!…
BB 188, but I thought Janet said Peter Costello was biding his time?
Or Turnbull’s preference.
The Liberal Families first, National Country Party second.
From Janet A’s piece of fluff:
No doubt Janet (and the rest of the MSM) will continue counting how many days Rudd goes overseas, and if it drops off, it will be because he is too scared to leave now that Malcolm is on the scene.
And if he continues at the same pace, they’ll just keep up the “perception of an absent PM continues to grow amongst political pundits and talk back radio listeners”.
I don’t think he can beat 16 kids. Don’t think Tanya would be too impressed although Janet might be willing to help out in this regard.
Grog,
I love the way the narrative ebbs & flows. One minute Rudd is a “control freak” not able to let any aspect of governing from his grasp and the next minute, the whole Australian economy & way of life is in the balance, totally dependent on Rudd’s steady, guiding hand and will fall apart if Rudd so much as sets foot on an aircraft.
We’re only bloggers, having a bit of fun on a lazy Sunday afternoon.
ut the likes of Janet, Pies and Milne are supposed to be serious journalists. Yet their drivel is of lower standard than much of the stuff I’ve seen here.
By the way: why is Janet writing what she writes and STILL occupying a position on the Board of the (supposedly impartial) ABC?
Can I just point out how truly stupid I think it is (both as an argument and as a political ploy) to be criticising Rudd for going oversees to talk to the UN General Assembly and American financial regulators instead of staying at home and concentrating on domestic affairs during a “global credit crisis”.
It’s a GLOBAL crisis!!! GLOBAL!!! And just a few good sound grabs with footage of Rudd addressing world leaders and key US financial regulators – in his well cultivated forthright and self assured way – will make Turnball look stupid with exactly the key Liberal constituents (economic right social progressives) that he, unlike Nelson, actually had a slim chance of bringing back into the Liberal fold.
He is obviously very keen to take it up to Rudd (fair enough) and with the news cycle the way it is now, you do have to play a good short game. But there is short and there is so short you don’t even look far enough to see that you’re about to poke yourself in the eye!!!
Assessment so far: Crapola!
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuId=28&ContentID=98849
I wish you people would stop equating The Australian, a limited-circulation newsletter by and for Liberal Party toadies, with “the MSM.” I read the SMH, the Age, the Canberra Times and the Fin Review every morning and they’re all perfectly reasonable newspapers. If I want to know today’s Liberal Party talking points, I’ll read Hansard, or come on here and listen to GP and Glen. The only good thing in The Australian is Doonesbury, and I can get that at Slate.
yep and on Slate it isn’t two weeks behind.
Bob Ellis sure has a way with words. My opinion of his critique of Costello’s book.
“Snap”!
great analogy.
That was always the Bomber’s problem – great off the tee, got the yips with the puts
Latham, thought the whole contest was about who could drive the longest
Nelson is most liekly great and the short game, unfortunately he used a putter off the tee.
Costello was the man off the tee, but when ever he got sight of the green he collapsed in nervous shakes.
Which is why he and Howard were a great team at foursomes – Costello put it on the green, Howard drained the putts.
Unfortunately he either “Hooked” it left into the water or “Sliced” it out of bounds on the right and had to keep reloading and hitting off again from number 1 tee.
He never got to finish the first hole and was unable to get much of a look at the other 17!
Rudd is probably the Nick Faldo of politics – he wins with 18 pars.
Methinks Turnbull maybe more like Greg Norman…
Talcum has said:
“Our proposal will cover single aged pensions and people on service pensions that are getting the same single service aged pensions,” he said.
“We honour and respect and understand the needs of the veterans community.”
So next week it will be Rudd turning his back on Veterans. I can smell the headlines already.
The problem for Turnbull is he will open yet another can of worms – all the veterans grievances that Howard ignored will be dragged up. F111 re seal-deseal, Lon Tan veterans are just two that spring to mind.
Told you he is a political dunce.
One habit Labor should avoid is engaging the LNP on anything, it only gives them some sort of credibility. Likewise they should refer to them as opposition or Liberals. this starves them.
whats funny about Janet Pies and friends is that they have not been jolted into reality by the election result. They are having a field day about how well Turnbull will do without a single poll to back them up
Macklin resonds to the new pension plan:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/21/2370154.htm
“We can see from the Senate motion last week, the first motion the Liberals put in on September 17 was different from that which is now on the notice paper from the 18th of September,” she said.
“Goodness knows what they’ll put in tomorrow. This is policy on the run from the Liberal Party.”
I guess for the Libs it’s a case of something must be done, this is something, therefore this must be done.
I’m suss on the no voting intentions for Galaxy. Why would they ask about issues and PPM but not voting intention? Was it not the result they were hoping for??
Andrew
Galaxy gets paid by News Ltd. But as Shamahan notes we understand Newspoll because we own it.
I think news would really like their own pollster to release the Talcum “bounce”. So they only commissioned Galaxy to do the PPM stuff.
But Fairfax may gazump them with a Neilson.
My Grandma, who lives on the N.S.W South Coast, was polled by Newspoll this weekend. She’s a Labor voter, and very happy with Rudd!
Grog at 202
You’re right. Bomber could drive it 400 yards on the fly but always looked clumsy with a putter in his hands.
In the end it’s all about reading the slope and the slope that I don’t think the Libs have accounted for (whether because they are blind to it or because it is unpalatable to many within the party) is the failure of the infallible market philosophy.
Climate change really is the Karma that ran over their dogma. It undeniably (though they did their best) demonstrates that the sum of individual acts of self interest don’t always add up to the common interest.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that the free market – for the most part – serves us very, very well indeed. But I also think that people are starting to realise that the whiff of something unpleasant wafting through the corridors of power is emanating from the streaming philosophical turd of market infallibility hanging out of the arse of the free marketeers. Sometimes individual acts of self interest just add up to one gross act of self interest.
Ironically, the Libs may have chosen a leader who actually subscribes to this espoused philosophy – rather than the political opportunism of Howard, Abbott, Nelson et al – at exactly the point in time that global events (climate change, market meltdowns) and shifting public perceptions are showing it up to be the nonsense it is.
Might have worked if Turnball (or indeed Costello) had come to power around 2003-4. But it may well be that Turnball is yesterdays man before he begins. Or at least is trying to drive off the tee into a headwind of public opinion.
He’s a free marketeer and a former merchant banker. Their the ones who got us into this mess … and that one … and that other one over there …
There shall be many polls tomorrow
With regards to Possum’s Turnbull poll bounce competition, I notice that there are 25% picking 51% or less TPP for Labor from PB. We are going to be humiliated as a site by this renegade group when Newspoll comes out. I propose a one week ban for anyone more than 4% away from the true margin. We have standards, they might not be very high but we still have them!
It stands to reason that 51% or less and 61% or more are two options that theoretically should gain more votes than a single percent point (e.g. 52%). I doubt most Labor supporters would think the polls will be 61% or more… but Liberal supporters can at least hope for 51% or less.
ltep
Perhaps we should introduce a “Naughty Corner” or a “Hall of Shame”.
Diogenes, Possum, William
Is there a way to see how the vote is progressing without having to vote again? Or is this secret squirrel stuff?
I admit I did vote on Pollytics and PB.
What about a Last Man Standing Death Polls Knockout competition? Everyone outside the MOE is eliminated and that keeps going each fortnight until there’s only one left standing.
Might i be the first to coin ‘the workchoices of taxation’ to describe Tvrnbulls policy as i doubt his masters would allow anything else. imo
Eratosthanes
So true, why pick a merchant banker as messiah when they are as popular as a fart in an aroma therapy clinic.
This is just a test run and a bit of fun – we’ll get a decent polling system up soon enough where you can only vote once. GP will be most displeased.
Love these two comments from Bob Ellis’s blog. Firstly, “DocMercury ®”;
And “BlzBob’s” reply;
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2367943.htm
Well, somebody reads the Sunday Telegraph.
Just had a convo with my next door neighbour while putting out the garbage on a Sunday night.
I know my next door neighbour hasn’t paid tax, the mortgage, alimony, any bills except electricity for at least 8 years since I’ve been living next to him. His girlfriend is always lamenting that he should get an accountant and sort out his unpaid tax problems (he is self employed). Meanwhile his wife pays the mortgage on their house, but doesn’t live there. He won’t let her past the front door.
This is putting a face on the angry Krudd-knocking contributors to the Telegraph Blogs: lazy, bludging, whingers who bash women both physically and financially and then blame Rudd for the mess their lives have become. Well, at least one of them’s like that. Unfortunately he’s my neighbour.
This man is utterly convinced by Pies, Milne and whatever the latest Telegraph smear campaign tells him. I know they’re in a minority, but it’s still unsettling to see the hatred on their faces as they talk about the Rudd and his government and regurgitate the latest “scandal” those crappy rags dish up as news and political opinion.
Bushfire Bill… you just can’t reason with stupidity.
BB when was the last time that bloke voted Labor?
Nineteen diggity six I’d imagine.
BB,
Put a bunch of them together and you have the basis for a successful TV series.
Kath & Kim could never compete. I lived next door to a rabid Pauline Hansen supporter.
You’re getting off lightly.
He seriously mentioned the Heiner affair?
GB,
Vote? Don’t be silly. Can’t be bothered while there is still a few tinnies in the fridge.
Never admitted to voting Labor, to me at least.
He’s your classic “white trash”. Sorry for the pejorative term, but it’s appropriate to this guy. He’s always bellicosely angry about something. He’s been convicted of assault twice in the eight years I’ve known him. I’m the only neightbour who speaks to him. Everyone else can’t bear the sight of him. He used to bash his wife before she left in self defence (she now lives up the road in a rented flat). When his (independently wealthy) girlfriend went away for three months overseas this year all I heard from him was that she was a $lut who’d f** the first gigolo who came along (his source: her ex-husband!). The whole street is gradually being occupied by his “fleet” (as the locals call it). Two boats, four cars (one on blocks with the front bashed in). He’s into every lurk there is: extra garbage bins, excessive water use with a fraudulently obtained water usage permit from Sydney Water (he does some gardening and other handyman work around the suburb). And he doesn’t pay any tax. Couldn’t afford to. They’d take him to the cleaners in fines and interest for the years he hasn’t even put a return in. He even uses a leaf blower to blow his grass cuttings and fallen leaves onto his other neighbour’s driveway. A total the-world-owes-me-a-living type.
I speak to him because I have to live next door to him, and because he knows everything that goes on in the district (yes, his other nickname is “Radar”… a perennial busybody). And also because he’s never done me any overt harm. I know he has a gentle side (the girlfriend brings that out… when she’s not away on holiday) and is very skilled with his hands. But my God he’s annoying at times.
He’s your classic target for the Telegraph smear merchants. They tap into the hatreds and inadequacies of people like my neighbour and, in the process, belittle us all. I mostly just ignore him, but this evening he got up my goat so much I needed to write it up.
William, BB,
He might spend his spare time posting on Pies blog.
Shows that he doesn’t spend it frivolously.
In Beecroft? Yikes… it was a sleepy place when I grew up there
Absolutely. Just before the election when The Australian blew the story to smithereens I printed off the two stories on it and took them in to show him and his girlfriend.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22560793-2702,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22572159-601,00.html
“Here’s proof, ” I said. “The story’s false.”
Their reply?
“That rag is full of Rudd lovers. Who’d believe THAT?”
They have followed the Heiner story point by point, every time Pies writes about it I get a comment along the lines, “A respected journalist like Akerman wouldn’t just make this up.”
You really can’t win.
To my neighbour the connection between Rudd, Bryce, Shorten, Bryce’s daughter, Heiner, and the three gay butlers is some kind of high level nest of corruption and putrescence that is typical of Labor in office, in his mind anyway. He can’t be shaken out of it.
But it’s the way his face screws up with complete hatred that actually upsets me. The rest I can ignore.
Well it’s a very quiet corner of Beecroft, down near the bush on the western side. He’s pretty atypical of the locals, who are mostly pretty quiet in that smug, leafy suburb sort of way. For a start he’s only 55. The average age around here seems to be 92.
I watched both 7 and 9 news services tonight to see how they handled Rudd’s trip and Malcolm’s criticisms of Rudd going away. 7 didn’t mention Malcolm at all while nine showed that part of his interview with Oakes but also showed Rudd giving his reason’s for going. They also mentioned that Malcolm had visited the US himself not long ago and had said that it was necessary for him to be their in person. In other words Malcolm came out of it looking like a whinger. So there you go.
Rudd and Turnbull speaking on the TT hosed farce special broadcast about the financial markets on 7..
Gary @235
It was always going to play out that way. And that’s even before the cool footage of confident Rudd addressing the UN (see post 198).
Way to poke oneself in the eye Turnball.
My view is that there are various kinds of Liberal supporters.
The “Old Libs” The Lord Dolly types, who still long for the days when they ruled the colony.
The “New Libs” The movers and shakers (in their eyes) the ones who really know what a collateralised debt instrument is or at least they thought so, they normally have “and associates” on their busines cards.
Then we have the “Small Business Libs” the ones who long to be one of the above – but in reality have bought themselves a job.
Next is the “Aspirational Libs” who have the feeling they are better than the guy next door – and are about to go bankrupt because they believed a “New Lib”.
Last is the “I have voted Lib since Menzies formed the party” unfortunately time is catching up with them.
Talcum has to frame policies to get others to vote for him, mission impossible.
I might be stupid or something but having the PM in New York, which is the epicentre of the financial world, during the biggest economic upheaval since 1929 must be very hard to complain about. Aren’t we incredibly lucky that our PM happens to be there so he can meet all the relevant players while he’s there? Isn’t that a good thing?
Apparently not unless you are a Liberal PM
ruawake @ 238
Love the Lib votership breakdown. Not only does Talcum have no chance of pulling in new voters but so far I can’t see him holding on to the old ones.
“PM shouldn’t be going OS to talk to US financial regulators” can’t be going down well with your “New Libs”.
And “the PM is boring” can’t be going down well with your “I have voted Lib since Menzies formed the party” group.
So thus far he has alienated 2 of your 5 remaining Lib constituent groups. Not bad going in a week.
BTW, just an ad for Rove who has Rudd on as a guest to mark his 51st Birthday with “a gift fit for a PM”
You won’t see Talcum or the Libs do TV aimed at the 18-24’s, nor FM Breakfast Radio.
Don’t forget, Howard was in Washington when the Pentagon was hit. always claimed that this was his moment of epiphany on Foreign Affairs.
Pity he wasn’t IN the Pentagon at the time
But I do seem to recall the Meeja praising the Garden Gnome over his statesmanlike behaviour in the US at the time.
Yes, and quietly forgetting his clandestine meeting with Rupert Murdoch in NY the night before, that was supposed to have been off the books.
I remember he started to make a big deal about how Australia was going to invoke the ANZUS Treaty.
It would’ve been news if we DIDN’T invoke the ANZUS Treaty given that an attack on the U.S. mainland counts as an an attack on the Australian mainland (and vice versa).
Only if it’s an attack by another country, isn’t it?
I didn’t think terrorist attacks counted. If they did why not invoke ANZUS after the first WTC bomb (the one that didn’t being them down)?
The little fella was probably lickin’ his lips: Mercy! Here, finally, is my Grand Stage. (But it is dreadful … innocent … shocking … children … Janette! Tragic news! Tragic news …)
John Howard’s National Press Club Address
September 11, 2002
“Thank you very much Mr Randall. A year ago yesterday, on the 10th of September, I met President George Bush for the very first time. I had spoken to him twice on the phone, but we spent together at different gatherings and in different ways three hours together on the day of the 10th of September. We attended a splendid ceremony at the Naval Dockyard in Washington, where the bell of the United States ship, Canberra, was handed over to Australia as a momenta of the alliance and friendship between us in World War II. Both of us at the ceremony reaffirmed the centrality of the ANZUS alliance and that particular ceremony was a way of marking, during my visit to Washington, the importance of the alliance to both of us. We then had a lengthy discussion in the White House. I was impressed with the President’s extraordinary grasp of the whole range of world issues. And I was particularly struck, and I think it’s important in the context of current events, at the commitment he! had to building a very constructive relationship between the United States and Russia. And he spoke very warmly of his personal regard for President Putin. Later that afternoon, I went to the Pentagon, renewed my aquaintanceship with Donald Rumsfeld, who I’d met with Colin Powell when they came to Canberra the previous July for the Ausmin talks. And then, as many in the media know, I had dinner with Rupert Murdoch in Washington and a few people remarked that they thought that was going to be the story of the visit. But sadly of course, events unfolded the next day which have, although it’s a cliché to say so, it’s nonetheless absolutely true, events that have changed the world. It’s difficult to say anything new or different about those extraordinary events, but one must try. ”
He went to collect a friggin bell and have lunch with Rupert.
In purely monetary terms, the $1 trillion bail-out is actually more significant than both the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. The Americans haven’t spent that amount on the Wars yet, although the extended cost in lives, healthcare for Vets etc is $3 trillion. The flow-on effects on other countries is much more than the Wars. The equivalent bailout in Oz would be about $75 billion of taxpayers dollars. Imagine if that happened here.
No. The Treaty covers any attack whatsoever.
Oh dear, Cossie has to really look for a job now.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/seller-or-cellar-costello-book-ailing-20080920-4knm.html
Fortunately for Tip, Labor has prohibited the forming of new Australian Workplace “Agreements”. Isn’t he lucky his SmirkChoices isn’t going to bite him personally.
Costello’s book was massively over-exposed before it got launched. It was always going to be DOA.
It’s not as if (as far as I know) there are any racy bits in it, either.
# 251 Showson
The ANZUS treaty only requires “consultations” no more. The yanks didn’t
want to get sucked in. They must have been a lot smarter back then.
Also never forget when rodent indicated he would ask clinton for help with
the east timor intervention he was told by the septic administration not to ask
as the answer would be NO. So gutless wonder rodent didn’t ask.
OK – not within the scope by any way of ANZUS.
But Rodent was after heavy lift aircraft and some other logistical assistance, plus – MAINLY – US jawboning of the Indos not to do anything stupid like getting into a fight with Australia which what INTERFET really was.
Eventually the yanks came around and helped. The jawboning of the Indons was
very important and effective.
But I wouldn’t confidently rely too much on the yanks under ANZUS. Maybe they would materially assist us. Maybe not – despite the frequent fighter points we seem
so eager to accumulate.
But this was a criminal matter, wasn’t it?
I know what the hype was, but ultimately it was a case of murder. and mayhem, not an attack on the United States itself.
Sorry for the double post, but the Sub-Prime Loans probably have cause more economic damage, and many deaths (by suicide). Just guessing, but what’s the difference?
Just looking again at the other Galaxy stats in the News Ltd story it appears even worse for Turnbull than I thought.
In touch with voters is extremely low but what is worse is that his trust levels are at 18% which I guess comes from the Machiavellian rusted ons. Meaning no one trusts him except the blind faithful.
Arrogant, untrustworthy and not representative of ‘us’ seems to be the verdict from this small poll. It makes you wonder how he can recover the situation if people see him as untrustworthy – his messages will always be taken with a pinch of salt.
So if Labor strategists really really want to hit Turnbull where it hurts they should be focusing heavily on this ‘trustworthiness’ area. If you really reinforce the apparent negative opinion held of him by the electorate then it he loses all means whatsoever to climb back. IMHO
This lack of trust also allows Labor to classify Turnbull policies as ’sneaky’ which people will all too easily believe by the looks of it – thus if Turnbull releases a tax policy based on his review – calling it the ‘workchoices of tax policies’ will cut through.
PPM
Rudd 58%
Turnbull 28%
Turnbull 48%
Rudd 23%
Trustworthy
Turnbull 18%
Rudd 47%
In touch with voters:
Turnbull 18%
Rudd 52%
What’s the one between PPM and Trustworthy?
Any tax policy Turnbull comes up with is going to look shoddy … if Labor can capitalise on his untrustworthiness / pandering to-the-rich perceptions.
Adam@249
I believe that one is ‘arrogance’.
BB
I hadn’t thought of that. There is a well documented relationship between suicide and economic recession. The suicide rate increases by up to 20% in a recession, but it depends on the country. There is some evidence that the adequacy of social security mitigates against the rise. The US has a crap social security buffer so they do poorly. The suicide rate in the US is 11/100,000 so a 20% increase would actually be about 8,000 extra suicides per year of recession (if severe).
“Only 23 per cent of people thought the prime minister was arrogant, compared to 48 per cent who voted for Mr Turnbull.”
So in summary, Australian voters see Turnbull as arrogant, untrustworthy and out of touch. Another perfect Liberal leader.
Oops, I thought those were the results from a poll of the Liberal partyroom.
Actually the results are so bad it is hard to believe they are accurate. Surely more than 18% find him trustworthy?
Just watching the PM on Rove, I reckon he’s got the youth vote stitched up for a good while
Dio @ 262,
Interesting stats about the link between recessions and the rate of suicide.
Reminds me of what my first boss (in the financial services industry) once said to me about the difference between what we were doing and the work of doctors: “Sure, our mistakes can’t kill people, like doctors’ mistakes can, but our mistakes can certainly stuff up people’s lives”.
It’s a bit of a puzzle why so many see him as untrustworthy – it’s not like he personally has done much to warrant that. He’s actually relatively honest for a Liberal. I think it’s the Liberal brand that is now seen as untrustworthy, not surprisingly after the eleven year record of lies and deceptions from Howard and Costello.
Nitpicking point about comparisons with Finland, though – isn’t the rate of suicide always pretty high in Finland? So comparing the effect of recession there with the effect in NZ might not be a valid comparison?
Adam,
Turnbull’s an ex-merchant banker. I reckon that’s more of an issue for him (in the short term) than the Liberal brand.
When it comes to the perception of trustworthiness, that is …
Dario @ 267,
Just a shame he fudged out on the last question again. Also noticed he wasn’t as bubbly as he was pre-election, although he was still willing to play along. And we won’t started on his comments about moose…
Heheh, probably just as well!
Yeah that was a bit wierd. Funny, but wierd.
Goodness me Thabi Mbeki has resigned.
They’re going down like ninepins: Fukuda, Olmert, Mbeki…
Wasn’t Mbeki the guy who didn’t believe in the existence of HIV? He thought it was a fairy story invented by someone or other for some reason or other – I’ve forgotten all the tawdry details.
Maybe Palin wouldn’t be so out of place amongst world leaders …
Wonder if Gordon Brown will be next? Will Balls have the balls to go for the job?
I think that’s him. Got booted for corruption issues. Whatever it takes I guess.
Brown will go soon. They couldn’t possibly have a PM called Ed Balls, could they? It’ll have to be Milliband.
missed out on Rove… unfortunately the TV in my house was tuned onto “private Practice”.
he mentioned a moose? Sarah Palin I guess?
I think he was asked if he thought Palin was hot – his reply was something like ‘I like moose’
Dyno @268:
There’s a variant of your story attributed to the late Prof. Fred Gruen, in self-deprecatory mood:
“What’s the difference between an economist (the government adviser variety) and a psychiatrist?
A. A psychiatrist can only ruin one person’s life at a time.
Not to mention Clark as well she’s finished in NZ, the election is simply a forgon conclusion if the polls are to be believed.
Peter Fuller @ 283,
Cruel but fair.
Yeah, they’re going to vote for the NZ version of Obama.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4676754a6160.html
Did Clark do a Bracks – lock several laws in place bar a referendum or three-fifths of the parliament ?
Big different one hasnt written 2 memoirs and been on Oprah.
Also one has more leadership experience than the other, and id have to say Key wins that hands down.
Adam: the latest poll in the U.K suggests Labour will be completely wiped out in the next general election, and be reduced to a rump!
Would Miliband or anyone else even want the top job? They might be tempted to leave Brown there and let him carry the can for the defeat to come!
dyno
Finland’s suicide rate is quite high (20/100,000) as is most of Europe (dunno why). NZ, Oz and the US are much less (12/100,000). I agree that the study really just raises a hypothesis but no more.
Mbeki isn’t really an AIDS denier. His Health minister was though. Mbeki thought AIDS was given more prominence than it warranted.
Mbeki is an appeaser just like Chamberlain…look at what ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ has brought South Africa after apatheid, 1 president who used violence as a political weapon, 1 president who is corrupt and the next president who is also corrupt.
All this and a one party state (ANC) makes for one miserable South Africa.
dyno
I should also add that your comments about doctors and other professions is true. Although medicine is viewed as life and death, it’s pretty rare for someone to die because of a stuff-up and even then the doc can think to themselves that it was the disease that killed the patient. People who run big organisations like Department Heads, CEOs and the like have the potential to cause hundreds of times more good or bad than a simple doctor. I’d have never-ending sleepless nights if I was in Rudd’s job. I’m frankly amazed more politicians don’t have nervous breakdowns.
I was reading yesterday (in psychology today) that suicide was the No. 1 killer of people between the age of 20 and 35 in China. And that suicide was the No.5 killer in China.
Dio,
Thanks for the figures. I was under the impression that Scandinavian countries suffered greatly from SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder) on account of the long, dark, cold winter. And that this was thought to be a driver of the high suicide rate.
I must say that Sweden is the most depressing country of the 15 or so places that I have been to. A combination of a puritanical Protestant heritage, and socialism of the most formulaic kind (it’s all about rules, not about care for one’s fellow man), and the weather.
August edition page 89
Rudd triumphed on Rove.
First time I’ve ever watched it. The man’s popular. No denying it. All this business about “oncer Rudd” is deluded wishful thinking.
Dio,
Interesting your comment about the pressure of being PM. Some leaders have cracked a bit under the strain of it all. I’m not sure that Gordon Brown’s coping all that well, for example.
Glen @ 291
You can’t exclude most of a nation from political, social and economic power for decades and then expect them all to suddenly adhere to the very same democratic principles that were denied them. It took centuries for all the major democracies to develop (including our own) and the stories of their births are riddled with conflicts and corruption.
I don’t deny South Africa has her problems, but the stewardship shown by Mandela and Mbeki to take South Africa from racist regime to a reasonably functional democracy that despite its setbacks, flaws and incompleteness is moving in the right direction I count as the single most effective transition to democracy the world has ever seen.
Show me a country that has done it better, or in a shorter time frame, or with less bloodshed, or without the corruption that comes with a sudden freeing up of social, economic and political capital. The US? France?
You effectively just condemned a nation of people for not being far better at building democratic institutions than we have ever been. It takes decades if not centuries to set up a free society and then put in place the political, social and economic institutions that curb the abuse of those very freedoms.
We still struggle with it here and we’ve had 220 years to work on it and that was on the back of a further 200 years work in England before we even started.
South Africa has her problems, and there is corruption. But at least they haven’t recently started a war on false pretences that has killed 500,000 people.
So get over it!
Excuses excuses, how long can they keep the past and use it as an excuse for their own failings. You’d think after apartheid that they’d do everything they can to ensure honest and good government.
All you have is a One Party State all over again instead of the National Party now its the ANC and yet the ANC are moving from one corrupt leader to another corrupt leader.
So long as there is a One Party State in South Africa, nothing will change.
As long as the Liberals believe a Messiah will save the day for them without any policy effort on their part, nothing will change.
That’s just stupid where have i said that?
New Ac/Nielsen Poll out:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/turnbull-factor-puts-coalition-in-front-20080921-4l0e.html
2PP: 52-48
Primary: ALP 41%, Coalition 42%
PPM: Rudd 56%, Turnbull 33%
Hmm… for a narrowing such as that to occur is really strange. The article doesn’t doesn’t what the last ACN 2PP was… does anyone have a record?
Urgh I can’t type tonight! That should have read “the article doesn’t have what the last ACN 2PP was”
New thread (please don’t continue the off-topic discussion about South Africa on the new thread).