The latest Essential Research survey has Labor’s lead down from 58-42 to 57-43, remembering that this is a two-week rolling average which was half conducted before Malcolm Turnbull replaced Brendan Nelson. Also included (just from the last week’s sample) are various questions on leadership and one on industrial relations (45 per cent think the government moving “too slowly”).
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Essential Research: 57-43
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762 Comments
Has an opposition leader ever had a one week bounce in the polls before?
I am happy to resume discussion on the constitutional arrangements of Andorra – or perhaps San Marino, or Liechtenstein if people prefer. Would anyone like to know why Castle Liechtenstein is in the suburbs of Vienna and not in Liechtenstein?
ruawake – there appears to be 2 things that you have failed to understand.
This is “a two-week moving average”
This was “half conducted before Malcolm Turnbull”
Both of these things would appear to mitigate any bounce.
Do tell, Adam.
SA
I was talking about next week
Govt working with greens & Idps to get Luxury car tax bill passed,
Opposition left out in the cold.
“The Senate has rejected an opposition proposal to have the government’s planned luxury car tax increase applied only to vehicles worth more than $90,000.
All seven balance of power senators sided with the government to vote down the coalition amendments, 36 to 34.”
http://news.smh.com.au/national/coalition-fails-to-amend-luxury-car-tax-20080923-4mby.html
The Liechtenstein family, who take their name from the castle near Vienna in which they lived from the 12th century, bought the County of Vaduz in 1719 in order to give them a seat in the Imperial Reichstag of the Holy Roman Empire. The county then became a sovereign state within the Empire, and with the fall of the Empire in 1918 it was recognised as the independent Principality of Liechtenstein. The princes didn’t actually move from Castle Liechtenstein to the Principality of Liechtenstein until the Nazi annexation of Austria in 1938.
Interesting responses to the “X is more honest than most politicians” question:
Rudd 53%
Nelson 25%
Turnbull 25%
Conclusion: only rusted-ons buy Turnbull at this point. He’s got all the work to do.
The attitudinal research on Talcum is dreadful, sure he does better than Brenda but will this slip in the weeks to come?
How long until the Libs figure out picking Talcum was an error?
hehe. too early to conclude anything, ruawake, but you’re right: they arent good at all!!
We have had three polls, one poll reported a 3 point movement, another a one-point movement and this one, unless Labor had a ‘bounce’ their way in the first week of polling, no bounce either. This Turnbull bounce is a myth.
Looking at his mediocre personal ratings it would be easy to understand why.
I think the more important question is if they do, what do they do about it?
There’s really no one else. Who? Abbott, Mesmerelda, Hockey, Pyne?
This is probably as good as it gets for them.
Who would want to be a Liberal supporter with this lot to barrack for and provide constant excuses for the incredible level of incompetence and lack of talent?
Trustworthy honesty level of Turnbull is especially dangerous because it is linked with a high arrogance rating. Just how does he improve perceptions when most dont trust him?
Not surprising really, given he no doubt sees himself as a legend.
The Liberals problem was, as Nelson’s spill was all about trying to deal with Turnbull once and for all, the old leadership could not run anyone else. Hockey would do better, even Abbott. At least they would have had the party behind them.
In regard to public perception and Turnbull’s honesty is the latest pensioner gimmick.
Turnbull is going on about how important it is now but earlier in the year he dissed it and when in cabinet voted it down. You would think Labor would be going hard on this point with the little sting in the tail – how can you trust this man.
My point is when actions and perceptions become aligned they are reinforced.
yeah, 12 years to do something about pensions – and now the yabbering. People arent stupid. This wont pay dividends.
The real danger for Turner’s is that Rudd is looking like actually keeping his promises in his quiet, methodical, and evidence based, boring way.
That will hang over the Libs tilt in 2010 like a solar eclipse.
If I was Turnbull, I’d be having a quiet word with the HoR’s camera crew and get them to cut back on focusing the cameras directly on him when he is seated and copping a spray from Government Ministers.
He either looks arrogant or has a somewhat “shell-shocked” appearance and both do not fit the profile of a competent, confident leader.
Wonder how Smirk feels about his brother always sticking up for Kev.lol
“WORLD Vision chief Tim Costello has backed Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’s decision to head to New York to talk about global poverty with other world leaders.
Mr Costello said it would be “embarrassing” for Australia if its prime minister wasn’t at such an important meeting.
The rest of the world who are taking this seriously would scratch their heads in disbelief,” he said.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24388881-29277,00.html
No 16
More to the point, how can you trust our conceited Prime Minister?
No 7
Adam, I also note that your Andorran thesis was not an argument.
Yeah, Im surprised Hockey wasnt mooted, given how much the Howard right hates Talcum.
My guess: right after the 2010 election loss.
No 20
What’s more embarrassing is that after all the talking about solving global poverty, more talk is still to come and still no sufficient action.
(23) My guess is Mumbles is right, they won’t wait till then.
GP, just saying it doesn’t make it so
They need to bring in a completely new face and play steady as you go. Hockey to me looks like damaged goods. Don’t know what Howard did to him the other year but he seems to have changed a lot.
The main problem for the Libs is the bad blood between the key players from the previous Government. The Turnbull team has been played out as a win for his side and a lose for the old guard. Yet they are still around, waiting for Turnbull to falter and then move against him. Electoral poison!
Until a few more leadership contenders have their throats cut, it’s chaos and disunity for the Libs.
In the mean time, Rudd and Co get on with the job of Government.
Hawkey got it right when he said, “how can you govern the nation, if you can’t govern your own Party?”
Of course, he’s Mr WorkChoices.
So GP, if Rudd is “conceited”, then what which of Turnbull’s traits are dragging him down compared to Rudd as preferred Prime Minister by 45/25? Or is “conceit” irrelevant to being preferred as PM?
I think too many people have forgotten that Hockey was sacked by Howard from his first portfolio after an absolutely woeful performance and being publicly humiliated.
Most probably Hockey was told by Howard just how much the whole Coalition Government was depending on a high level performance in IR and that his whole career hung in the balance.
Hockey dutifully sold out his principles and proceeded to try and sell the sh!t sandwich which was workchoices. As a result, Hockey doesn’t have any credibility in the wider electorate and I suspect with his own colleagues.
Hockey is yesterdays man the same as most of the remaining members of Howard’s front bench.
All true on Hockey but Turnbull’s main problem is that the party is not behind him so he is stuck with policies that he has already criticised and this makes him vulnerable to the government. They have to pick someone from the right I would think. Fun to speculate anyway!
No 32
If they were not behind him, they would not have elected him. His supposed lack of support is a nonsensical beat up by bloggers here trying to distract from the Government’s baseless attacks on the opposition.
No 29
And Gillard is Ms Workchoices-Lite.
GP,
Oh, they are behind him all right. With knives unsheathed ready to show the thrust of their support.
Again GP, just saying it does not make it so
Gillard had Turnbull nailed when she said today even as he asked the questions you can see he doesn’t believe them.
No doubt he can’t for this parliamentary session to be over sdo he can go off and find some of his own policies (which form what George M was saying on Insiders, seem mostly to do with tax).
Fine GP, I’m sure Turnbull would have no trouble bringing in his views on climate change for example, so solid is his backing. Anyone watching the Liberals will know that Turnbull’s narrow win said more about Nelson than support for Turnbull.
32
GP, does that mean that the 40+ Liberals who didn’t vote for Turnbull are not behind him?
Tax is about the only policy he believes in that he can raise without annoying the party.
Any leader or aspiring leader of the Libs would kill for a similar mandate from their colleagues that Rudd has.
Unlike Rudd, any leader of the libs cannot achieve the level of authority or mandate that Rudd enjoys and consequently has to juggle a range of factional differences and somehow try and overcome a prevailing “Howard influence” which still hovers ever menacingly over the party.
This was clearly evident in his choice of the front bench and the amount of time it took to put together.
We could very well see a repeat of the early Hawke years when the Libs were virtually rudderless and were continually fighting over the spoils of defeat and the leadership. Many interesting days ahead me thinks.
40 – Shrike too true.
No 36
I didn’t say it. But George Megalogenis made the point quite well on Sunday.
GP
Turnbull only just fell over the line against the most dismal leader since Downer. His support was nothing to write home about. And Julie Bishop already looks like she needs to be put out of her misery.
I quite like Turnbull (I might get banned for saying that) but he hasn’t got a lot to work with. It’s going to be a long road back.
No 38
The Liberal Party supports an emissions trading scheme. Our view has always been that we should not be pursuing the policy with needless haste.
The poll responses show Turnbull as more demanding and much more arrogant than Rudd.
So the seemingly never-ending media pieces, from a month or two ago, painting Rudd as a control freak and aggressively demanding, seem not to have rung true for most Australians. They could’ve even done him a favour now Turnbull is on the scene for comparison!
The interesting thing, though, is how Turnbull could have generated such confidently negative responses on these two questions (59%/56%). I’d say the voters have a fair idea already of what they think of him.
And expect the 48% “Out of touch with ordinary people” to take a hit with the completely “out of touch” Roosters howler.
Turnbull is much the best leader the Libs have and they should stick with him. Whatever current polls show he is the only Lib who could pose a serious threat to Rudd in 2010 if the economy turns turtle in the wake of the Bush Recession in the US.
…but doesn’t believe in it
No 44
The ballot was always going to be close by virtue of the fact that Nelson called a snap spill. Had Turnbull waited the month or so, as was suggested by “Liberal insiders” in the MSM, he may well have secured a much better margin simply because Nelson was going from bad to worse and simply wasn’t cutting through.
No 46
Rubbish, Bryce. I don’t think mainstream Australia particularly cares which team the Leader of the Opposition or the Prime Minster follow in their occasional sporting sojourns.
No 48
More rubbish.
GP
I agree with the snap poll argument. Everyone applauded Nelson for “showing courage” and “settling the issue” but I though he wasn’t doing his party any favours creating a desperate dash to the line. It’s like calling an election and not allowing any time for campaigning. It was pretty ordinary IMHO.
45 “The Liberal Party supports an emissions trading scheme. Our view has always been that we should not be pursuing the policy with needless haste.”
Funny one GP!
Penny Wong pointed out in Senate Question time today that not only are Turnbull’s economic credentials shot with the poor appointment of Mesmeralda but worse for him is his environmental credentials have been hit for six too. Turns out the two old climate change denialists Robb the Googler in the HoR and Minchin is his representative against Penny Wong.
Turnbull if he has a credibility/trust problem as it seems then his tax policy can suffer from being associated with Workchoices as in ‘the workchoices of taxation’ regardless of the detail. The tag will stick and create doubt.
I agree he is the best thing for the party but only if he can break the control of the right otherwise he will just lose more credibility.
The Turnbull/Hewson comparisons are getting eerier. Just off the top of my head…
Both went to Sydney Uni.
Both merchant bankers.
Both in parliament just a few years (4 and 3) when elected Leader.
Both members for Wentworth.
And now the hint of Turnbull also having tax as his raison-d’etre.
Any more?
Hewson lost the unloseable election in 93.
Don’t know whether that’s good or bad news for Rudd.
But as Peter Brent opines – Turnbull may well be a plucked rooster by then – replaced by another from the stellar Lib cast.
No 52
Diogenes, I was among those that applauded him for finally settling the issue once and for all. Yes, it was partly a last-ditch attempt to save his leadership, but it was also an effort to save the party from suffocating media speculation.
Compare and contrast the analysis during Nelson’s leadership with that under Turnbull. Now the focus is more on policy, not whether there are surreptitious efforts to undermine his leadership.
I wonder how Samantha Maiden is feeling this evening after writing this.
Boy, another one who thinks Robb is “a delightful and talented political strategist”. And she finishes with this;
It could be a long wait if they keep up their current performance.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/samanthamaiden/index.php/theaustralian/comments/turnbull_deploys_women_and_young_guns/
No 53
Steve, firstly, no-one denies that there is a climate and no-one denies that it changes. The skeptics, by and large, are critical of the human contribution. There is nothing wrong with skepticism, especially in science.
That said, whether Robb denies anthropogenic global warming or not, the reality is that both the Government and the Opposition agree that an emissions trading scheme should be introduced. Penny Wong should stop dithering and start giving Australians some information.
{Compare and contrast the analysis during Nelson’s leadership with that under Turnbull. Now the focus is more on policy, not whether there are surreptitious efforts to undermine his leadership.]
Give it time, GP, give it time.
I thought the ALP was going too fast… make up your mind GP
Loved the Helen Demidenko of Australian politics line by Swan today.
Bishop’s office have fessed up to the cut-n-paste
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24391138-5013404,00.html
Bishop says:
code for: my former speechwriter is now cleaning toilets at the Liberal Party headquarters.
GP at 50
The question, if you missed it, was “Out of touch with ordinary people”
How out of touch can you get, I hear 5 million Victorians saying.
No 60
Yes it is going too fast and there is surprisingly little detail given the haste at which they are proceeding.
No 62
Bryce, the football team preference of our leaders is inconsequential to the outcomes of elections. If you continue to pursue that line, I will have to conclude that you are delusional.
No 61
Well, I must say that Bishop has not started well. Plagiarising the WSJ and forgetting the official interest rates are, really, unforgivable gaffes for treasury spokeswoman.
How can it be going too fast if there isn’t any detail? GP, you are a walking contradiction.
GP with Robb and Minchin a snails pace would be too fast. They haven’t quite made it into this century yet and the further the debate goes the more out of touch they would look. They are both eminently unqualified for the climate change issue on any criteria.
code for = ” I told that speech writer today, thanks for taking the hit” and then let him write my next “impromptu utterance”
No 66
We know it’s going too fast because it intends to introduce the scheme in 2010. Firstly, there is no sufficient modelling, we don’t know the ETS framework, we don’t know the implications for heavy emitters, we don’t know whether the world will even reach agreement.
If I’m a walking contradiction, you’re living in a sphere of abject ignorance.
Thomas Paine @ 27
Please, say it isn’t so! Joe Hockey is the Avuncular Bear, the Barbecue Clown, the Grinning Aussie Trier (who can bring hurrahs and posh pig meat to any Lavender Bay fundraiser)!
(But yes, I concede, he’s also Howard Spawn.)
(I’m still gunning for the plastic comb salesman, Christopher Pyne.)
Well Turnbull has fallen at the first hurdle as far as I can tell, Julie Bishop, Andrew Robb and Nick Minchin are poor selections for someone who was relying on the economy and the environment to distinguish himself from Nelson’s feeble attempt as Leader.
Just on the pensioner squeal, it is somewhat worrying that the clerks of the House of Representatives and the Senate are of diverse opinion as to the constitutionality of the pension bill.
lol
how do you know what modelling has been done?
wouldn’t want to rush it GP
So we shouldn’t implement an ETS if the world doesnt? Is that Liberal policy?
No 71
Steve, just be honest: Turnbull will always fail in your eyes and spare us the senselessly foreboding commentary.
It was only a cheap stunt GP. The Bill was a scam to hide the do nothing of twelve years under Howard and cabinet rejecting Brough’s cabinet submission for a pension increase last year.
GP
Ones Lab and ones Lib. I’d be worried if they DID agree.
It’s a non event GP. The high court has acknowledged that there is an argument on both sides but that it is not in their juristiction and should be decided by the HoR. That’s the end of the stunt. And to be honest I don’t think Talcum will be sad to see the end of it.
Turnbull will fail in all eyes with this Shadow Cabinet GP. Pathetic is what it is.
Their opinions are completely irrelevant. It will never be brought on in the House, so it will never go to a vote, so it will never make its way back to the Senate.
No 73
Australia’s emissions are diminutive, so I would certainly argue, as an individual, that we should not act until the world reaches agreement.
However, the Liberal Party position is that any ETS should not be pursued with haste; rather that as much work as possible should be done to ensure that the policy framework is correct and proper to ensure that our economy is not harmed. Whether that results in Australia implementing and ETS before or after the rest of the world is not of concern.
Steve,
Considering Rudd won with probably the most pathetic opposition cabinet since 1977, I really don’t think it matters.
You need not worry about acting with Robb and Minchin with both feet on the brake, inaction will be the norm from this pair of denialists. The rest of the world will have no trouble staying ahead of their timetable.
No 80
Good point.
By the way, what ever happened to that “national broadband” I was expecting?
AC this change was supposed to enhance the Liberal’s electoral chances and they have bombed out.
No 81
What is your problem with skepticism? In no other field of science have I seen such dogmatic ad hominem attacks against those who dare offer a contrarian opinion.
Doesn’t say much for Howard’s cabinet if that’s your opinion AC
Contracts issued early next year
Much as I hate to agree with GP, he is right that all this frothing about Turnbull and his shadows is of no relevance to anything much. Rudd will win in 2010 if the electorate still has confidence in his leadership, and that will depend on the state of the economy and the effectiveness of his response to economic issues, which includes IR and the ETS. If the electorate no longer has confidence in Rudd, he will lose, so long as the opposition leader is minimally credible as an alternative. Turnbull is much the most credible leader the Libs have at present, so they will have to stick with him. Nelson was an accidental leader, and the last ten months have been a mere entr’acte between the Howard and Turnbull leaderships. The real contest to win in 2010 began last week.
Not much enjoying the debate over which shadow cabinet was the more “pathetic”. Find something interesting to argue about please.
Just thinking back on today, you’d have to say it was a pretty ordinary performance by the Opposition.
Poor questions, silly gaffes, endless points of order (all refused), adolescent interjections and finally the failure of their set-piece pensions bill to even be debated by the House.
Really, quite terrible. Let’s hope the Opposition improve and at least try to make a serious contribution.
We are PART of the world! You write about the world as if it is everything excluding us!
Oh we know this; we had 11.5 years of lack of haste.
Because what you are espousing is denialism which you are simply calling skepticism. Your belief that creationism is a possible alternative to evolution demonstrates that you do not understand how science works as an epistemology.
WONDERFUL! THANK YOU! You just gave it away; you are just being contrarian, you aren’t actually proposing anything supported by evidence. I congratulate you for finally being honest.
No 88
Hear, hear.
Not so sure, Dario. Several frontbenchers (including Howard himself) had ministerial experience. Unlike their 2007 counterparts, they could articulate policies, actually developed theoretical underpinnings and didn’t rely on vacous and quiet frankly irritating catchphrases like “education revolution” and “I have a plan for the nation’s economy” (LOL!)
Steve, where’s the “bomb out”? Don’t tell me your relying on that ridiculous Essential “Research” poll which is quite frankly laughable. Anyone who honestly thinks that the Coalition’s primary vote is 33% should be put down.
No 90
Bushfire Bill, it seems you have a short memory regarding the adolescent and indolent behaviour of the Government regarding Turnbull’s wealth, ego and his Venetian sojourn. Albanese, the principal offender!
Being skeptical about whether there’s MSG in your wontons is a little less dangerous than being skeptical about the threat of global annihilation (as Nietzsche might have said).
(Stakes, old son. Consider the stakes.)
Sorry, William. Just got your message after I posted.
Turnbull might be the most acceptable face available to the LNP at the moment (though those personality polls say something different) – he could however lose further credibility fast if he has to be careful of the right or if he follows Nelson’s tactics. They could ruin their own best bet.
FWIW I think his attack on Rudd going to NY was silly and counter productive considering the environment. It may backfire as images and stories come back from there on his activities etc. I know he was trying to downsell the importance of the trip and thus downplay any Rudd kudos but…it was counter intuitive.
The opposition shadows are just new in their positions so will need a little time to get up to speed and the same with Turnbull.
No 91
You have completely misrepresented my argument as to creationism v evolution. I did say during that argument that so long as evolution was taught as the principal scientific thesis, I had no problem with children also being exposed to other views.
Furthermore, I’m not repackaging denial as skepticism. Those are your words. I’m simply saying that your virulent distaste and vulgar denigration of people who old opposite views is as absurd as it is obscene. Science is not a religion; and nor should it be expounded religiously.
GP at 53, well done on having the guts to criticise Bishop. Youve gone up in my estimation!!
No 99
I still think she has the capacity for the job, however. If these errors continue to emerge, my view may change though.
The disappointing thing about the way a no-change Newspoll and a PPM that was just 24% (alebit it up from Nelson’s 6%) was spun as great news for Turnbull is that those at the OO, Sky news, 7 news etc, seem to have learned nothing from their failed analysis and predictions re: Howard and Rudd. They just cant seem to accept that their darling lost, and dont seem to care about any pretence of balance
sorry meant Nelson’s 16%
No 101
Andrew, your analysis is absurd. Everyone knows the Liberals lost.
You heavily implied that you thought that students could be taught creationism in the science classroom, which demonstrated that you don’t understand what constitutes a scientific theory.
Well, that is what you are doing whether or not you are aware of it.
But when we ask you for evidence you don’t have any! You are having this about five different ways.
So why do you think children should be taught creationism as if it is a scientific theory!
GP,
I think what Andrew is referring to is the fact that whilst Labor still leads 55/45 in the Newspoll on TPP, more and more commentators are saying that there is increasing evidence that Rudd will be a “oncer”.
How a 55/45 lead in Newspoll equates to a losing position in an election is beyond me – a 55/45 result for the Howard government last year would have had the scribes out saying that Howard was cruising to another landslide…
No 104
You can draw whatever implication you wish from my argument, but you’d be wrong to suggest that I think creationism should be taught above evolution.
Arrogant dribble. Do not pretend to know what I think and put words in my mouth!
I don’t. Again, those are your words.
These were not interjections, or frivolous points of order. They were in the ordinary run of debate. From memory, Albanese made precisely ONE point of order today, which was agreed to by the Speaker.
Contrast this modest performance with the Opposition’s literally dozens of points of order, I think only one of them agreed to by the Speaker (who is regarded as no government partisan like the last hack).
The Opposition is being clearly disruptive, while the overnment is being clearly humorous. I mean “Merchant of Venice”? “The Helen Demidenko of Australian politics”? These are genuinely funny and enliven an otherwise plodding and disrupted QT.
Adam was right earlier. Turnbull is by far the Liberals’ most credible leader (this football thing, pur-lease, didn’t he even correct himself in the same sentence?). The next election will be competitive if there’s a recession, and will be a canter for Labor if there isn’t.
Bishop’s had a crap start, though, no point in denying it. Fancy not knowing the cash rate.
To be fair, from reading the transcript, I think it was more that she was not sure of it.
Dyno @ 109,
Agree completely. As a self-confessed “liberal”, I’m waiting for Turnbull to start spelling out his social policies – if he’s going to revert back to Howard capital-C conservatism, he can forget it, but if he actually acts like a true “liberal” (socially liberal, economically liberal), then I’m more than willing to switch my vote to the Libs in 2010…
No 105
The beauty of a democracy is that you are free to hold your own opinions. Opinion writers are but a slice of the news cycle and most people here seem to give them more credit or status than they are owed.
At the end of the day, Shanahan and Ackerman (for example) have been beating from similar drums for years, but their commentary had no influence on the outcome of the 2007 election.
GP @ 85
“What is your problem with skepticism? In no other field of science have I seen such dogmatic ad hominem attacks against those who dare offer a contrarian opinion.”
Absolute nonsense.
History is filled with attacks on those who have used science to develop new theories and explanations. The sceptics were the ones who argued that the world was flat, that the earth was the centre of the universe, etc, etc.
No 107
Oh I see, it’s humour when it’s from the Government, but it’s adolescent when it’s from the Opposition.
Shameful double standards BB.
You don’t have an argument! If you did you’d explain what it was, but instead you just revert to evasion and obfuscation.
Creationism doesn’t even constitute a scientific hypothesis, so it doesn’t belong in at all in a science classroom. The fact you can’t even acknowledge that demonstrates you have no idea what science is.
You don’t realise it, but you are espousing an extreme relativist position where all propositions of the truth are considered equally good and equally flawed. Your idea (I can’t even call it an argument) is completely self defeating.
Unfortunately, GP, Shanahan isn’t there to provide opinions (unlike Ackerman) – he’s there to interpret Newspoll and (for better or worse) sets the political climate for the day.
The problem is that he’s not very good at it. He was the great exponent of the infamous (and non-existent) “Narrowing”, he predicted the day before the election that Howard would win again and he’s running around now saying that Rudd is doomed (2 years before an election).
I’d expect that analysis from a commenter on this blog – not from one of the chief political writers in the country. I’m sorry, but the standards are not the same for everyone…
Either way, its the first thing you should know when you take the job
Let just modify that sentence GP. GP just be honest: Swan will always fail in your eyes and spare us the senselessly foreboding commentary.
Seems that all these polls are only good news for the libs insofar as they show better numbers than under Nelson. So in a relative sense its great for them.
In an absolute sense they are still a non-competative rabble, abeit with possibly more potential than a week ago.
So Turnbull is going to make Tax reform his thing??
“The new Liberal leader, who plans to elevate tax reform as a key issue in the 2010 election, has boosted his economic team while stressing the importance of the environment and sustainable development.”
Rudd and Co have already got that well covered with their review of the whole system and it looks like being one of their “evidence based” policies. Boring , but the process is likley to mean that when they do generate a policy to take to the 2010 election it will be well backed by research and evidence.
Are people really going to trust a merchant banker’s ideas on tax reform by then? After all the fallout from whats happening now? And by 2010 will he have been busted for his involvment in the HIH thing?? Will be interesting to see what he comes up with, but i think he’s missed the boat here.
“Fancy not knowing the cash rate.”
I wonder what would happen if Wayne Swan had been similarly uncertain last year…
No 110
If “socially liberal” means ending same-sex discrimination, then both sides are already in agreeance, even when Nelson was leader.
You’d have to repeal the marriage act to get rid of discrimination based on sexuality.
He wouldn’t be treasurer.
Bishop’s funnier gaffe was her plagiarism from the Wall Street Journal, something she has now blamed on her staff:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24391138-5013404,00.html
110
I don’t care how many times I hear it – I can’t accept that “agreeance”is a word.
imacca,
We’ll see “in due season”, but I’d be amazed if Rudd can make his “root and branch” tax review achieve anything much. It’s very hard to get any meaningful change through the MSM’s “winners and losers” filter, without inciting a whole lot of fear and loathing.
On the other hand anyone can understand a tax cut, and most people like them. But whether we’ll be able to afford more big tax cuts, well that’s a different question…
The LCT bill has passed the senate
http://news.smh.com.au/national/luxury-car-tax-bill-passes-senate-20080923-4mby.html
Winston, “agreeance” isn’t a word. The word is “agreement”.
Other social issues are where he stands on immigration, human rights (i.e. civil liberties – a core issue for true liberals) and (possibly) the ETS. If he opposes it by saying climate change doesn’t exist, he can forget about me (and quite a few others) – if he’s got a proper reason for opposing it (which I can’t currently envisage, but I’ll keep an open mind), then it’s a different story…
Boy Lateline hammered the Opposition… wow
Well, according to Megalogenis there is now 100,000 fewer high income earners getting government hand outs. So I think that’s a good start for the first budget:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24387904-2702,00.html
Dyno @ 126
Tell gp
No 126
Agreeance is a word.
Winston, cheers. It’s a word which grates with me too.
From Dictionary.com:
Main Entry: agreeance
Part of Speech: n
Definition: the act of agreeing
Example: Usage of the site constitutes agreeance with these terms.
Usage: considered obsolete and a bastardization of ‘agreement’
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agreeance
So while it’s technically a word, it isn’t really now…
GP, “agreeance” is a word that is considered obsolete and a bastardisation of “agreement”, according to http://www.dictionary.com
SL, beat me to it!
131 & 133
Look, I don’t care how much evidence you produce or how many experts you trot out I maintain my right to be a sceptic about “agreeance”.
No 134
The point is that it still exists and I have used it correctly.
Can we move on please.
GP,
If you wish to use “agreeance”, I shall reserve the right hereafterward to use the words “hereafterward” and “begat” (amongst others…)
No 139
Please do.
ShowsOn, actually if you read the article closely it says further down that the net figure is 44,000 fewer families getting hand outs. But no matter, still not a bad number.
Can we please have a thread on the ACT election?
Dario @ 128
Why is that?
On the gaffes. Gave them a full run and made the Opposition look very, very bad.
Mr Costello was cringeworthy on Lateline, so much so that he was nearly drawn to tears on the leadership question. Pathetic performance from our greatest treasurer.
Dyno @124
I reckon if they frame it properly as making the system simpler and fairer they may be able get through more than you think. That would tie in nicely with their theme on IR and hey, maybe the MSM will declare that they have a Narrative then!
I agree though that the “MSM’s “winners and losers” filter” will be a problem as it always seems to be for any policy. Could come down to simply making sure that most of the losers are from whatever demographic that they think isnt going to vote for them anyway.
Lucky for them then it was Lateline and not the News or 7.30 Report when people might have been watching.
Rebecca: I’ll put something up on the weekend.
I should correct the earlier poster who stated the LCT package has ‘passed the Senate’. It hasn’t. The Senate has requested amendments be made by the House of Representatives. After these amendments are made the Senate will vote on the final LCT bill’s third reading. If either Senator Fielding or Xenephon chose to vote against the third reading the bill would fail to pass.
The again their main demographic – pensioners may have been up late watching the ABC.
No 149
And hopefully they come to their senses and block the shameful tax binge.
But that won’t happen, because they voted for the amendments. It doesn’t make sense for them to vote for the amendments, but then against the bill when it gets back to the senate.
Well that’s what you’d think. However, the Opposition put up amendments in full knowledge that they wouldn’t support the bill with them. I believe Senator Xenephon always said he was willing to have the committee stage (where they consider the bill in detail) and reserve his vote on the third reading on this package and the Medicare Surcharge bill.
True, though, that it seems that it would be a waste of time bothering amending a bill and then not supporting it.
151 – of course GP you do realise that “tax binge” is working?
No 154
Yeah, it’s working to grease the wheels of class warfare.
Xenephon supported it BEFORE the amendments, it was only Fielding who was holding out. But now Fielding is onboard, so the bill is going to pass.
You just had to hear Erica Abetz attacking Fielding to understand that the opposition no longer had the numbers to block the bill.
The cold war is over mate, move on.
145 Generic Person – I mean this sincerely GP. For you to say that about Costello he must have been bad. If anyone else here had said that I would have thought it was bias speaking. I’m sorry I missed it now.
No 157
You wouldn’t think so listening to Kevin Rudd, Lindsay Tanner, Anthony Albanese and others pontificating on the need to steal money from the wealthy.
Costello is not a very convincing talker. Avoided sticking it into Turnbull over his silly recommendation. Too bad.
Nah, they just do that to piss you off. Class warfare has nothing to do with it.
GP @ 145,
If there is one thing that I am grateful to Howard for it is that the Australian people were spared the indignity of having Costello at the helm.
Tonights effort by Costello was abysmal and reinforced Howard’s judgment.
One of my mates is looking into installing solar panels. He asked the supplier how business had been since the changes were made by the government. His reply was that they have never been busier.
SNIP: Poor quality comment deleted – The Management.
He’s a worse writer. Try reading his book, it is like an op ed piece.
I’ve got a feeling he just jotted down dot points and Coleman converted it to disjointed paragraphs.
ShowsOn, please don’t tell me you paid 50 bucks for it?
Hahhaahhah Costello says Turnbull deserved his go, even though he voted for Nelson.
Costello on Lateline – its hard not to think he is just trying to spruik his book. Must have hoped for a best seller. He keeps harking back to his time in office and avoids comment on current affairs, except where they prove his past views right. He’s deluded over his own importance. Tony Jones is getting a bit frustrated with him: “You haven’t lost any of your skills in avoiding the question”. Funny for all the wrong reasons.
Rudd would have killed him in the last election. Howard was the best only chance they had.
That was painful. Please look away.
He whines too.
No 158
The fact is that if he really wanted the bloody leadership he would have challenged. I’m so sick of hearing the “ifs, buts, maybes” concerning the possibility of Howard handing over midterm. No-one comes to the leadership without a contest and Costello simply didn’t want one.
I admire him for his great work as our best Treasurer, but frankly his recent antics have crystallised the opinion that he is not leadership material.
No. Borrowed it from my uni library.
Yes, because he’s gutless.
Yes, because he’s gutless.
I realise I’m wasting my time here, but I would like people to do better than simply inflicting abuse at particular public figures. If your comment contains no intellectual content, take it somewhere else.
Costello is gutless? Pathetic? Painful? He whines? Who cares.
SNIP: Name-calling deleted – The Management.
No wonder Wayne Swann did so well against him at their debate last year.
The worm never lies!
Maybe Costello has dodged the leadership because in reality there has “never” been any support for him to take over the leadership.
His colleagues would know him better than anyone and may not have endorsed him as leader, straight after the election loss after all.
SNIP: Whinge deleted – The Management.
His mum?
Will there be a Morgan Poll out this Friday?
If so it will be interesting to see how the events of the last two days play out.
SNIP: Enough already – The Management.
Cossie is headed for the door. Why would he bother staying on now?
Morgan is conducting “special” research this week on the Turnbull “honeymoon effect”, which I guess will be released on Friday or Monday.
Surely Costello is now about the least relevant person in Australian politics we could be discussing? Unless some one starts a thrread about lazy treasurers?? Its the Mal and Julie show now!
Wonder if Julie Bishop has learned anything from the Cossie saga. Will she ever challenge for the leadership? Or will she wait for the party to decide they need a woman up front, they then beg her to take the post, and she condescends to accept it?
Thanks William.
Looking forward to it. The next few weeks polls will certainly tell the story.
I wonder how long Malcolm’s honeymoon will last?
imacca,
Funny day to be talking about Bishop challenging for the leadership!
In all honesty, though, Mal’s only 50/50 to get to the next election. Not that there’s anything particularly wrong with him as a leader (he has faults, so does everyone), just that 2 years is quite a long time for an Opposition Leader to hang on.
If JB can regain equilibrium after this week’s stuff-ups (and she probably can) and look reasonable as Shadow Treasurer, she could be in the right place by the first half of 2010. (Or after the election, which may be better for her).
It might very well be over now, Gary.
I wonder if Sportingbet is offering odds on it?
Did anyone have money on the length of Nelson’s term?
Gary the honeymoon will last as long as there is confetti for the msm to throw.
Samantha Maiden seems to have a difficulty with the difference between the NSW State Senate and the Federal HoR’s. Ms Neal was never on the Federal front bench.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24383020-2702,00.html
Guess what? Now it’s the governments fault that people stopped their private health cover BEFORE the legislation was passed and now have to reconsider their options. It was the backflip by the government that did it?
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24390644-952,00.html
How about the fact that the Senate dominated by non Labor wouldn’t pass the bloody thing and forced the government to make the changes.
No 191
Wrong scorpio. She was a senator for NSW in the Federal Parliament.
I’m not doubting your word GP. When was she a Senator?
Brendan seemed to be enjoying himself in parliament today. No pressure, enjoying the attacks on Turnbull no doubt.
I think the problem Bishop might have as leader is that she will always be compared to Gillard who as deputy is far more impressive. You could imagine Rudd would use Gillard against her and stand to the side all presidential like not deigning to lower himself to argue with her.
No 194
I stand corrected GP. At least you got one win today.
What portfolio did she hold?
Don’t worry GP – I found it. 1994 -8
No 196
The whole notion of Bishop assuming the leadership is utter lunacy, sorry to say.
No 197
The Minister for “Don’t you know who I am?!”
Consumer Affairs, Local Government, Housing and Childcare.
GP,
If you don’t know you should just say so. Such an inconsequential political figure didn’t really stand out, did she.
Thanks, William.
No 202
I did know, but plugging it into wikipedia yourself would have made you seem less lazy.
What, GP.
So now you aren’t interested in interaction with other posters or contributing in a meaningful way to civil intercourse.
Of course I could have done so, but you seemed to wish to converse.
Sorry I misread your intentions.
GP @ 196
I find the notion of any of the Liberal Front bench as leaders of anything more involved than a sewing circle slightly lunatic (but maybe i’m biased, just a bit……).
I am however genuinely interested in why you think Bishop assuming the leadership is lunacy as i am sure you would be looking at it from a different perspective to mine??
I think a good nights sleep may cure this laziness.
Night all.
No 206
The probability of Bishop assuming the leadership is so low that is unworthy of legitimate discourse.
Looks like the Libs are backing another loser.
{MOST Australians want the hefty alcopops tax to stay and would support increased tobacco tax if proceeds went to disease prevention, a Newspoll shows.
A survey commissioned by health and anti-smoking groups has found the 70 per cent tax hike on pre-mixed alcoholic drinks is supported by 57 per cent of adults irrespective of how the money is used.
But support rose to 84 per cent if most of the revenue funded programs to help prevent diseases such as heart disease and cancer.
“Eighty-four per cent is an extraordinary majority, particularly for an issue like paying more tax,” said Professor Ian Olver, chief executive of Cancer Council Australia, which funded the research with the Heart Foundation, Public Health Association of Australia (PHAA) and Action on Smoking and Health.
“It sends a strong message to politicians.” ]
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24394572-12377,00.html
Ok GP @ 208, i know thats your opinion. I was wondering what reasoning leads you to form such opinion? She is after all the Deputy, so the libs must think she has some potential??
No 210
The fact is that Turnbull is leader; unless he drastically stuffs up, he’ll be pretty safe for the time being.
Bishop has talent, but frankly is not leadership material. Heck, Bronny would be more popular.
Ahhh GP, i see comrade, you make good joke! Less popular than Bronny?? HaHa!!
South Australian Newspoll post.
GP,
I agree with you that Turnbull is safe for the time being (at least a year, I would think). He has more energy than Nelson, is more articulate and the party will be much more reluctant to dump him. That option will mainly come into calculations when the next election is looming and (if) the polls are still looking dire for the Libs.
I wouldn’t be as quick as you to write off Bishop, though. Shadow Treasury is a chance for her to make a mark. Sure, she’s off to a shocking start, but two gaffes of this nature hardly constitutes permanent destruction of a political career.
Good to see that Australia has jumped 2 places in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index from 11th to 9th since the Sergeant Shultz brigade got turfed out of office.
Stupid, stupid woman on ABC Sydney radio with air-head Brissenden talking about the Bishop plagiarism business. She opined that the reason Swan may have found this plagiarism is because HE was about to use it himself, and so had it readily to hand! Totally spurious and mischevious fantasising, completely made up and blurted out with no evidence (or rational thought) whatsoever.
Later on she ventured that if the “Missy higging” story had been true, at least it would have given Rudd something to do on his trip that wasn’t boring.
How vacuuous! Is this where the maniacal search for pseudo “balance” gets us? When you don’t have a thing to criticise the government about, you just make it up like some dumb suburban mum having a latte and a gossip with the girls after tennis? Then you broadcast it to an audience of a hundred thousand?
Very poor, ABC,…VERY poor.
Of course it is the Liberal ABC – but, your not allowed to complain about it apparently.
I did complain about it.
Got the usual platitudes and references to the Code Of Conduct. Quick response but useless anyway.
Deborah Cameron’s politics segment (just after 9am) with Brissenden is all about mutual giggling at the “circus” etc. etc. in Canberra. Her feedback segment , after 9.30, is mostly about mothers, babies and recipes.
Deborah Cameron feels free to make up whatever she wants to. Maybe in conversation that’s OK, but not on taxpayer funded airwaves which are supposed to report something approaching the truth, or keep quiet about it.
Bishop was caught-out. Whether or not the listener views this as serious, or even worthy of comment is up to them. But this does not give ABC journalists (both Cameron and Brissenden make much of their “credentials”) the right to make up empty-headed crap to achieve some sort of phoney “balance.” So sick and tired of seeing govenment, especially in these dangerous times, depicted as “boring”, “silly” or the appropriate subject of schoolgirl giggles and nothing else.
Sorry if this has been raised somewhere else. Former Senator Robert Ray will be conducting the review into the WA ALP election campaign. The terms of reference are wide-ranging and will be completed by 15 Dec 08.
218
Take a chill pill Bill
I note Tim Costello quoted today in the SMH saying that Rudd SHOULD be in New York for the U.N General Assembly, because they are discussing global poverty!
Indeed, he said that IT WOULD BE AN INSULT IF THE AUSTRALIAN PM wasn’t there!
My oh my! Not the first time Tim has been at odds with his brother!
But, of course the Libs don’t give a _______ about poor, starving people in underdeveloped countries, they would much prefer sticking up for Porsche drivers and the private health industry.
I know this is US news but it’s very relevant to this thread, esp with Rudd in NY. The Paulson Bailout looks dead in the water. There might be a different Dodd version but constitutional law problems have now been raised. The stock market isn’t going to like this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/business/economy/24fannie.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1222214762-w74Zfx9k6KjCh+qwGMgyNg
220
Where did you spring from, Wet?
Seems Congress has learnt from the Iraq affair and realise you just cant say here you go we will trust you on it. This was going to be another of those con jobs with billions disappearing into the void and nobody know where or for what. Congress should play hard ball on this to ensure the funds go to the righ places in the right amounts with the right conditions and so forth. I certainly wouln’t trust Bush and his mates with $700bn in the last months of his adminstration.
For a simple debunking of the Paulson plan go and have a look at Peter Martin’s blog.
Bill Clinton was pretty good on Letterman the other night too.
223
I’ve been lurking in the shadows… just for the record i think you probably make a few good points around these parts but i think you over reacted to the comments on 702 this morning.
Readily to hand? Even though she made the comments on Monday, and Swan called her out on them on Tuesday?
Obviously that journalist doesn’t bother to actually watch, listen, or read what happens in parliament.
Murdock is meeting up with Rudd, maybe this is why the opposition is frothing at the mouth about this trip-do you think they might be wary of losing Murdock’s patronism??? weeel just a thought lol.
bugga i forgot the link, sorry.
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2008/09/24/2372556.htm
Is QT on? I’m in the dark here.
Judith @ 229
It would indeed be very amusing should murdoch change his position and sent down riding instructions to his Australian papers to end their Liberal leanings.
I did mention the other day that I saw an interview with murdoch (and probably Murdoch had arrange to be interviewed on whatever show it was) where he endorsed Obama with a number of very positive comments and got down on McCain. Now that might be because of the Wall street meltdown and a desire to dissociate himself from Republicans or it might be a change in thinking or he might just think Obama is the right guy. Now that Howard has gone and the remainder being fairly mediocre he might reassess the tendency to support the right here. One can only hope. It would be fairly shocking to not find an over abundance of partisan reporting from his stable.
Interesting…
Anthony Albanese has asked the Speaker to investigate a discrepancy between what Julie Bishop actually said, on the House tape recording regarding her now infamous “Wall St. Journal plagiarism”, and her words as reported in Hansard.
He wants an explanation as to why the two records are different.
Don’t know what’s at the bottom of this, but for the tape and the printed record to be different ther’d have to be a good explanation. Any Hansard junkies out there who might have some ideas?
TP @ 230, QT is on per normal
Obviously Bishop contacted Hansard and got them to change it.
Page 37 of Monday’s Hansard says:
I see no attribution to the Wall Street Journal there.
Sorry for being slow… but you’d think she’s get them to change Hansard in her favour, not in a way that would support the charge of plagiarism (by not including a reference to the WSJ)?
I think it was the original tape – i.e. her actual words, as spoken – that gave no attribution to Hansard. If the Hansard reflects that actuality, then where’s the change?
Tape:
“In my speech I was referring to the United States plans. In fact the words I used were the technical explanation from the US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson which have been published widely.”
Hansard:
“In my speech I was referring to the United States plans and in fact the words I used were a technical explanation of US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson’s plan which have been published widely.”
The matter of contention is was she explaining Paulson’s words or the reporting of his plan?
Oh dear, so she can’t even understand who she plagiarised. She plagiarised the Wall Street Journal, not Henry Paulson.
Ah ha! I see… a subtle difference. I suppose her argument would be that she “mis-spoke”, or didn’t express her meaning clearly, and sought to have the meaning … er… clarified in the printed version…. except that she was reading her speech, was she not?
The world wonders: what are the protocols for having Hansard altered away from the original tapes of the spoken words? You’d think these should go through the Speaker or some formal process, not just a visit to the Hansard office by the member in question, a cuppa tea and a bikkie, and a quick edit while they gossip away?
Yeah… whoever she plagiarised the WSJ or Paulson, it wasn’t attributed. Her Hansard statement is more accurate, but still does not attribute.
In other words she ws trying to make herself out to be an economics whiz, by pretending that the “technical explanation” was hers and hers alone, not lifted word for word from another source.
Looks like the Naughty Corner for Julie.
apparently Costello gave Swan a mild pat on the back–dunno whether Swan should be flattered or wary.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24394980-5005962,00.html
I think Members can ask to have Hansard changed as long as it does not change the meaning of the words said.
Yep Naughty Corner for Ms Mesmer again.
I’d like to see Swan run that “Naughty corner” phrase back at her in QT. Wasn’t it him she first used it against?
This would be sweet, sweet payback.
(Waiting now for GP to chime in and lecture me that two wrongs don’t make a right).
Her original “blame the staff” excuse was more convincing.
She should have just shut up in the first place, it would be forgotten about already if she had.
Caught the end of Julia & Swanny’s press conference on sky news. When they crossed back to the studio the comment was something like, Swanny was crowing over the big tick the IMF had given his budget.
Interesting to read Cozzie’s radio comments (referenced above) on the “economic tsunami”. I’ve always believed they delayed the election so long hoping it would hit hard in time to save their bacon. They then could have made an argument that “Now is not the time for change, no matter how you feel about Howard.” Might have worked, too: the “Dennis Connor” gambit… sail into the spectator fleet and hope the other bloke rams into someone before you do.
Also interesting to see his pretty flat-out statement that he’s not interested in the Leadership anymore. Hinted at a job of public service (not IN the PS, OF public service). His latest part-timer with the world Bank (is it?) as some kind of malpractice invigilator indicates Cozzie is interested in doing good works.
(a) This would give him an excuse for not attracting a salary befitting an ex-Treasurer,
(b) Would at least be a job he could use to redeem himself in his own and the public’s eyes.
My prediction is a job with Brother Tim in the island missions or similar.
Congratulations everyone – 21.283 million:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24395667-12377,00.html
Its Tim’s to stand in Higgins for the Labor party!
Good to see that the growth is heading west and north
Turnbull’s office linked to Julie Bishop plagiarism row:
“MALCOLM Turnbull has been dragged into the plagiarism row engulfing his deputy Julie Bishop, with revelations it was his office that cut and pasted words from a Wall Street Journal article.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24395710-601,00.html
I wonder what other publications we are likely to see used in Liberal Party speeches from now on.?
Yeah it’s always the staffers’ fault
*mutters darkly*
Mein Kampf?
This is gold! ‘Wall Street Journalgate’?
QT is going to be fun!
-gate would have to be one of the most overused terms
Turbull kicks QT off on the pensions again… they just don’t learn
Julie Bishop pinched from the Wikipedia article on Clyde Cameron for her condolence motion
So she blames the staffer but she’s taking the flak. And she’s been caught misleading parliament. And then tries to cover up the fact that she mislead parliament.
TP@231, i wouldnt hold my breath but you never know!
perhaps Cozzie’s hanging out for a cushy ambassorship-ah la Vanstone, i heard the pays really good and perhaps Tanya would enjoy being the lady of the manor seeing she missed out on Kirribilli, come to think of it though, why would Rudd get rid of him when he’s doing such a good job for the labor party just sitting there at Talcum’s back?
If she was a racehorse she’d be scratched
Why cut and paste when it so easy to just rephrase what was written?
Or just preface the comments by saying “As a Wall Street Journal op ed stated on the 20th of September…”
Obviously she didn’t do that because she wanted it to sound as if it was her own analysis of the bail out policy.
Let alone the fact that the bailout package is now coming under severe criticism. Gee, I really wish our govt had followed Turnbull’s advice and initiated the same bailout package for our banks that don’t need it.
BB
Ms B is getting upset!
Bishop trying to pin plagiarism on Swan. Did he lift 8 paragraphs from the Assistant Treasurer’s speech in June?
“Yes. We are members of the same government!”
General alarums from Libs. Brushed off.
Gee Swan has earned some respect in my books.
A fair analysis would show that early on he was struggling but now,like gillard,he seems to grow more formidable at each appearance.
As a matter of interest have the fibs released any new policies since being in opposition
Tuckey kicked out lol
At last!
Tuckey sent to the Sin Bin, without warning for a dumb non-Point Of Order. Hope this is the harbinger of more sudden death red cards to follow.
To be fair to Speaker Jenkins, that’s now the third time he has kicked him for frivolous points of order this year.
BB
wilson is a serial offender, i think in some schoolboy way he thinks he is being “cool’
Should be a few more, starting with Uncle Joe.
People in his electorate consider taking a pointless of order, and getting kicked, participating in democracy.
BB
but hockey is so avuncular LOL
You know you suck at Shadow Treasurer when even Crean starts attacking you.
Why this plagiarism thing is getting so much airtime is beyond me. It was a stupid error – let’s move on lest the Treasurer explodes in a fit of hubris.
YAY! The hubris criticism is back! I hadn’t heard that criticism since early last November.
GP
If Ms Mesmer had not got up in a fit of hubris and claimed to have been misrepresented the plagiarism fiasco would be yesterdays news.
It was her stupid actions that have fuelled the media pack.
Because the media gets so bored with QT and is too lazy to actually follow the goings on that they pick on any trivial slip by either side to fill their column inches. Sad but true.
Also because no-one much likes the snooty Mrs B and they are glad to see her fall on her face.
I don’t consider plagiarism trivial. It’s enough to get someone kicked out of uni if they do it repeatedly.
It’s the coverup, GP.
I have no idea how she got this reputation for being a great minister or parliamentary performer. What exactly did she do as education minister?
I always thought she was a token female cabinet minister after Mandy Vanstone, Kay Patterson and Jocelyn Newman resigned to the backbench.
Truss gets walloped:
Truss: “Why do XJ Jags have an LCT exemption?”
Swan: “Because you made us amend the bill to include them.”
Yeah great answer.
Uhm….” to EXCLUDE them”.
No 287
The class wars are obscene. Again Swan is using the porsche driver line. Disgusting.
I mean 286.
Dear oh dear Mr Ferguson needs lessons in diction and elocution.
I think the idea is that if you can afford to pay a lot more for a car, then you can afford to pay a little (8%) extra tax. This is, of course, in the best interests of the country, given these hard economic times, as the IMF has so fulsomely recognized just recently, as has the Senate.
Why else WOULD you introduce a luxury car tax? Did your mob refuse to collect it? No. All they have done is force anomalies into it and then ask why there are anomalies. LOL.
Poor old Truss. What a thick-headed hayseed!
It gets worse. It’s Plibersek, the lady who proclaimed that the NSW Government has talent.
No 290
BB, I have argued against the LCT and I disagreed with its introduction. Costello should not have introduced it.
I’m not sure that the current vogue for running commentary of question time is a healthy development. It’s leading to a lot of very boring comments like 289. I’ll be chopping them quite liberally from now on if they aren’t any good.
Yes, that’s right, your mob actually introduced the LCT! I forgot to mention that.
Double hypocrisy.
No 290
That argument is as equally absurd as you earn more, so you should be taxed more.
No 294
And defending the increase by saying we introduced it is not an argument.
SNIP: Boring comment deleted. See 293 – The Management.
No 297
BB, more rubbish
Treasurer: The opposition stands for porsche drivers.
Double standards mate.
SNIP: Comment of the kind that led the commenter to be banned recently deleted – The Management.
i thought Cozzie said he was supporting his leader, hmmm, sniping in the background aint going to do it, the cracks are showing already, Shanahan is in NY with Rudd, lucky Rudd, now we’ll get first hand accounts of how Rudd wasted his time and our money–betcha!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24395351-2702,00.html
And she accused Bronny as being the member for Macarthur!
Kate Ellis’ main problem is that she is letting the Opposition’s argy bargy get to her. She needs to not react directly to Coalition MPs. Nothing a bit more experience won’t temper.
I cannot fathom the rationale behind abolishing Australian Technical Colleges. Surely it would be much more costly to have every school in Australia teaching trades, rather than having specialised colleges around Australia.
SNIP: Boring comment deleted. See 293 and 299 – The Management.
297
Fair cop guv.
That’s the spirit, BB.
The Member for Maranoa agrees with me that Hawkie introduced the LCT.
No 307
The Member for Maranoa and Ruawake are both incorrect.
GP the Australian Technical Colleges are costing us 100, 000 dollars per child so far. Good value?
No 309
It would be no different to the cost of supplying a university a degree.
sorry should read “supply a university degree”
at costs of over $100k per student and barely 20% of the originally estimated enrollments you don’t see the rationale? lol
For the introduction of the LCT take a look at the legislation that brought it in. Also note the date.
http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/BD/1998-99/99bd156.htm
GP is correct.
No 312
But would it be cheaper than making every secondary school teach trades? I think not.
No 313
The pertinent sentence:
GB
Hawkie was the first to impose a tax on Luxury Vehicles, via Wholesale Sales Tax. When the GST was introduced it was supposed to replace the WST, but in the case of luxury cars it did not.
So to keep the revenue raised by the WST on luxury cars, Hammock introduced his LCT.
If Hawke had not raised the rate of WST on luxury cars, Hammock would not have introduced the LCT.
No 316
ruawake, luxury cars were simply subject to a higher WST rate. There was no additional separate tax.
I understand what you are saying but your last sentence says it all. Cossie did introduce the LCT.
Why would you need to make every secondary school teach trades? Plenty do it already and can be expanded, or the facilities added to existing schools. This specialisation that clearly wasnt thought out nor planned well (as per usual) was a dismal failure.
There was no need for a separate tax. That is why the GST is a dogs breakfast.
A fair point Dario. Why start from scratch?
No 319
Dario, read the ALP policy yourself:
http://www.alp.org.au/media/0507/msedutloo101.php
$2.5 billion for trades in every school. A far cry from the $440 million spent on Australian Technical Colleges.
OK how about this
Hawke taxed luxury cars at a rate of 23%
Hammock taxed luxury cars at a rate of 25%
Rudd taxed luxury cars at a rate of 30%.
No 322
So, Ms Gillard’s attack on the expense of ATCs was baseless.
No 323
Ruawake, Rudd intends to tax them at 33%.
GP
Yep you are correct.
What is it with ABC Radio News?
They announce that BOTH sides are guilty of plagiarism. They run Bishop’s question to Swan re. the June speech, including her last line, “Just who is the Treasurer and who is the Assistant Treasurer?”, and then fail to run Swan’s devastating answer to it: that the speech was writeen for EITHER the Treasurer or Asst. Treasurer to deliver, or both, as the occasion warranted.
They are clearly reporting pure spin from the Opposition in order to claim “balance”.
As I said GP, you don’t need to put trades in every school as it already exists in many so it can simply be expanded or improved at much less cost than building new specialised structures that can only service a much smaller number of students (due to locality factors), and couldn’t even manage 20% of their intended enrollments! An abject failure in anyone’s language.
No 328
Dario, the ALP policy is exactly what Gillard intends to introduce. By our own admission, the policy is a waste of money.
BB,
They probably picked it up from the Oz.
Turning the tables on the Treasurer during question time, Ms Bishop had a “gotcha” moment of her own after she revealed Mr Swan had lifted significant elements of a speech delivered by Assistant Treasurer Chris Bowen.
A clearly flustered Mr Swan seized on revelations on The Australian Online that Ms Bishop’s recent plagiarism gaffe had been linked to Malcolm Turnbull’s office but struggled to explain his own actions.]
Notice, again, no mention of Swan’s answer. Just a strong inference that Bishop got one up on Swan. Humbug.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24395945-601,00.html
other than showing they only managed 20% of intended enrollments, blew the original budget by $150 million and cost $100k per student…
How so GP? Making things up again?
No 332
Your words:
ALP policy:
The ABC can sometime be dishonest in their eagerness to support the Liberal party and are basically run by Howard’s hacks. There are however bastions of honesty holding out in places. They are of course at the moment trying to cover Bishop’s problem. But why bother? It would be immediately forgotten if they shut up about it – or maybe they just cant resist trying to stick a pin into Labor.
No 331
And the ALP’s answer is to spend 5 times as much money putting trade centres in all schools, instead of working to improve enrolments in the specialised trade colleges.
No 334
TP, the ABC is not an eager Liberal supporter and I’m astounded you accuse it of being as such given the well-known Bolshevik crusaders that regularly report for it.
That doesn’t say they will be newly built in all of them. Schools have to apply for the money and can expand their existing facilities if they already have them.
Let’s have a quick look at the program’s website…
http://www.tradetrainingcentres.deewr.gov.au/
You fail
by giving existing schools more money to do more, rather than plod on with a failed project which couldn’t manage even 20% of expected enrollments, blew its budget by $150 million or so and cost $100k per student
As for The Australian I dont read the trash and you don’t have to most of the time anyway as their angle is so predicable and do not very often bring anything valuable to the debate. They have ruined their own reputation. But I will be interested to see if murdoch is changing his attitude and some of the hacks get the boot. Maybe we could all sign a farewell card. (I did see Fox News crticising the McCain side yesterday!). But I wouldn’t hold my breath.
I tend to agree with Adam – we don’t have to read the thing anyway. And manay of those who do probably have well formed political opinions in anycase so wont be so easily duped or changed.
On another subject I believe it is time for Rudd to start economising his words and resist the temptation to supply all the gorey details. He also needs to add and or change some of his mannerisms and turns of phrase. The average Joe just wants to here the gist of it – not the whole structure. IMO
GP seems to be arguing against putting more money into education. I wonder where we’ve heard that before.
So instead of having the states and feds work together, you want them to compete against each other for enrollments?
I remember a time when conservatives believed in less government!
The Assistant Treasurer gave Swan’s speech. So Swan plagiarised his own speech.
No 340
I have no argument against additional spending, but the spending should be properly targeted. Putting trade centres into all schools will not do anything to a) increase the status of trade qualifications & b) stop the exodus out of trades and into university degrees.
No 341
Federal models entail decentralised power and competition between the states. So I fail to understand your point.
GP
Think of it this way, you are at school, you don’t want to be a lawyer or doctor, you want to be a sparky or chippy or dunny diver.
So instead of leaving at yr 10 you stay until yr 12 doing subjects that will help you in your chosen career. Good idea?
Or are yrs 11 and 12 only for those who want to go to university?
Opinion based on…?
Great use of jargon, but WTF are you talking about! They were separate technical colleges set up, funded, and run by the federal government.
We had state tafes and technical colleges, but instead of giving them more money as tied grants, the previous federal government set up a whole new federal bureaucracy to compete against what the states already had. It was big government conservatism at its absolute worst.
I remember a time when conservatives believed in less government!
No 338
Also, the Chamber of Commerce and Industry said that the ATC model was good and not the failure that Gillard thinks it was.
http://www.acci.asn.au/text_files/ACCI_Policy%20Review/2008/APRIssue4_May08.pdf
Who cares what the chamber of commerce and industry thinks. They spent nearly all of last year campaigning against Labor, then started sucking up after Labor won.
If they were a less partisan organisation they would be taken more seriously.
So who is the pretty boy now?
If you recall, one of the big differentiation during the last election was:
Howard’s Experienced Team of Ministers Vs Rudd’s L-Plate Pretenders. In particular Swannie, Gillard and Tanner were targetted as the weak link.
Well, the former has all but disappeared with the remnant of Abbott, Hockey, Robb and Bishop looking decidedly shaky. Whereas the L-platers, especially Swannie, Gillard and Tanner, looking confident and flying high.
GP
Thanks for bringing our attention to the locations of the ATCs.
The ACCI is simply a union with a more glorified title.
I watched QT this afternoon! Swan, Gillard and Chris Bowen were all over the Libs like a rash, you really didn’t notice the PM’s absence!
Who cares what you think? Your elitist denigration of opponents is obscene.
Hahhahah so the chamber of commerce and industry is an opposition group.
Well, that was my point.
Union thugs, you ain’t got no union thug, I’ll show you union thugs.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3297753a-8982-11dd-8371-0000779fd18c.html
Generic Person: still defending your Porsche driving mates?
“Your elitist denigration of opponents is obscene.”
And confected outrage? It is disgusting, despicable and unimaginably vile!
GP gets pretty funny when he falls in a heap
Fair go, confected outrage is easier than reasoned argument.
GP
The location of ATCs in National Party, Liberal Party or marginal seats is obscene.
As a close relative of a person involved in trades training policy development may I add a little to the debate. The main problem with competing state and federal systems of trade training is a long standing shortage of qualified trades teachers who are prepared to teach (despite the turndown in the economy tradespeople are still in very high demand). Having a few mega schools puts too large a strain on the teaching resources of a defined area, trades in schools requires only one or two teachers in whatever school district decides to participate in the scheme in order to be effective.
The new federal trades schools were to be trades only schools therefore giving students an either/or choice of continuing to HSC level or going to trade school or doing both cumulatively, where the trades in schools system will allow attaining a HSC and trade training simultaneously. The appeal of the trades in schools which has in effect been implemented over the years in a piecemeal fashion by the States is apparent, the students have voted with their feet.
Props to Inner Westie for 357.
By running directly to Brendan’s arms post 24-11, former ACCI chief executive, Peter Hendy, dispelled any silly talk about his impeccable impartiality.
I think ACCI was probably happy to see him go. They’ve been trying to repair their relationship with Labor ever since.
Hopefully now they realise that they can be a more effective pressure group if they aren’t constantly so partisan.
So who is the pretty boy now? Sorry WB, it’s off topic but it’s just too good to miss.
What was our Nic thinking? I always have a suspicion that Keith baby is rather useless. Somebody should bottle it.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Lifestyle/Story/STIStory_282010.html
That reminds me. Did Turnbull keep Hendy on as “his” Chief of Staff?
One of Nelson’s firs acts upon becoming leader was to engage Peter Hendy as chief-of-staff. Hendy, it must be remembered, was one of the originating architects of WorkChoices, as per the following article:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/last-push-to-realise-a-dream-of-30-years/2005/10/14/1128796712441.html
By the Liberal leader taking this action it is reasonable to conclude the Liberal Party is as committed as ever to radical workplace “reform”.
“WorkChoices” is dead by name only: its spirit burns hot and deep in the Liberal Party.
Has no-one explained the facts of life to Our Nicole?
I think I heard Brenda say “all my staff are unemployed”.
Maybe Nic was doing a bit of a tourism promo for Kununurra?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/24/2373338.htm
Govt should be defending Joint Strike Fighter.
“Now the JSF is a very, very good aircraft for Australia and there’s a whole host of people who have said that.
“To compare it with the Russian Sukhois and Migs, the flankers as they’re called, is really not comparing apples with apples.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/22/2371412.htm
New fighter jets ‘could leave Australia vulnerable’
A Federal Opposition MP is demanding the Government’s plans to buy joint strike fighters be put on hold, saying there are serious concerns about the aircraft.
“Even against aircraft that are current and indeed superseded … for instance an F13 which was introduced into service over 30 years ago would comprehensively outperform the joint strike fighters.”
So in two days we have two completely opposite views from the rabble. Which is it? A good plane or a dog?
Well, the answer is no one knows, because the final capabilities haven’t even been decided on.
Re ’stand alone’ tech schools.
Many of these were to be established in regional areas. This means that they would have ‘bled’ students from smaller regional centres.
Take a student out of a small regional school and you threaten its very existence.
With every student that goes, the school’s ability to offer programs for those remaining contracts – staff numbers fall, and thus the number of subjects available. This creates a vicious circle – a student who doesn’t want to leave to go to a tech will leave because, for example, the local school is no longer able to offer music courses.
Tech schools also cut off options for the students who go there. I’ve worked at a school which recently split into two campuses – one tech, one academic. Students had to choose their subjects accordingly, and most of them were furious.
Just because you’re planning to do law at Uni doesn’t mean you don’t want to do Art in Year 11; similarly, just because you want to do Fashion Design or Mechanics doesn’ t mean you also don’t want to do Australian History.
By offering tech courses at ‘normal’ schools all students have a wider range of options available to them and can explore subjects not directly related to their area of study – which in some cases can lead to the discovery that, damn it, you don’t want to be an auto mechanic (or a lawyer) after all, because you’ve done that very interesting semester of graphic design.
Channeling children – because that’s what they are – into careers too early does not lead to a flexible, adaptive work force. Making major life decisions at fourteen or fifteen is really asking a bit much, especially in today’s world. Students should have as many options available to them as possible and should be encouraged to explore these.
Tax Laws Amendment (Medicare Levy Surcharge Thresholds) Bill 2008
Commenced 5:38 PM
Negatived at second reading Senate divided: Ayes 33; Noes 33
Dennis Jensen says its a dog, David Johnston says it will “dominate the region”. I bet Dennis has had a phone call. “Hey Dennis we don’t need JSF skeptics”.
If you’ve been watching any commercial free television lately, you’ll know that the ABC Shop is currently flogging a truly fabulous collection of songs called BBQ Kings – Fellowship of the Grill.
Joe Hockey (the original barbecue tenor) makes a stunning guest appearance on track 8, Let It Go; Christopher Pyne – a slightly less accomplished barbecue performer – provides some sweet harmonies on track 4, Bugger It; but here’s the real surprise, Peter Hendy, blasting out a faultless falsetto scat on track 14, It’s All In The Swing.
If he must quit Canberra, I have no doubt there’s a big future for Hendy in casino cabaret or regional RSL work. The man is an undiscovered genius!
No 374
Excellent.
Steve Fielding and the Rabble will have to explain to 300,000 people why they did not get to reduce their tax burden.
Jensen is the one who thinks we can all relax because global warming is happening on Mars.
No 359
There was no reasoned argument when you discarded the opinion of the ACCI, which is interesting considering that the document to which I linked was written in May this year, after Hendy left.
No 378
The only rabble is the ALP who cannot fathom the reasoning behind the levy: to encourage private health cover take-up.
No 364
Their efforts must have been monumental because Gillard has simply implemented Workchoices Lite, sans AWAs.
I thought Liberals were all about choice? If people value private health insurance they will keep it, if they don’t they will opt not to have it.
Why force people?
No 383
No-one is being forced or coerced.
Furthermore, the ALP has failed to explain the impacts on the public health system and the subsequent increase in private health premiums as a result of a mass exodus of people to the public system.
384
As I’ve said before, GP, by that argument private health premiums should have fallen dramatically and the public health system improved vastly when the levy was introduced. These things didn’t happen.
One can only conclude, therefore, that there is no link between them.
To add to 384: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/take-pressure-off-hospitals-nsw-auditorgeneral/2008/09/24/1222217291060.html
Get Private health insurance or get taxed more – I call that forced.
How many people with Private Health insurance say they have no insurance when they go to a public hospital? Most of them.
Would you agree to legislation linking Private Health status to Medicare records?
So the “choice” is between a costly commercial product that you partially fund by way of tax and a free public service that you fully fund by way of tax?
Where are the Sink-or-swimmers with conviction these days? They’d see this for what it is …
No 385
Not at all zoomster. Health costs don’t suddenly fall because their privatised. The difference is that the private system can provide health care more efficiently, rather than rationing it as in the public system.
By removing the levy, everyone except the Government agrees that their will be a flood of patients going back to the public system. That can only mean higher premiums and poorer public health.
Public health funding does not come from thin air.
Proof?
Yes.
GP, but that’s the way the Howard Government – who had access the exactly the same modelling the present govt. had – sold it at the time.
Private health was going to become cheaper and public hospitals were going to be under less pressure.
Obviously the Howard Government’s prediction was wrong.
If a policy doesn’t work out the way it was supposed to, surely it should be adjusted?
GP
Get real, Private Hospitals in Australia do bugger all, the centers of excellence in all major health areas are in public hospitals.
The only Private guy I use is at the Mater Private Medical Centre in Brisbane – because I could not get an appointment with a heamatologist on the Sunny Coast, (they were all taking no new patients) but all my treatment is done at Nambour Hospital.
If I had Private Health insurance I would still be treated at Nambour. Private Health insuarance is a con and it costs the public health system $4 billion a year.
Btw, in 389, they’re not their.
No 392
Meaningless platitudes.
I wouldn’t call Dr Jayant Patel a “centre of excellence”, nor would I call Royal North Shore hospital in Sydney a “centre of excellence”, wherein babies are miscarried in toilets.
“I wouldn’t call Dr Jayant Patel a “centre of excellence”, nor would I call Royal North Shore hospital in Sydney a “centre of excellence”, wherein babies are miscarried in toilets.”
Misleading selectivism.
RNS has the leading spinal injury clinic in Australia. You really are out of your depth GP.
Which of course is modelled on the Sir George Bedbrook Spinal UNit at the Shenton Park Campus of Royal Perth Hospital in WA
No 396
ruawake, I appreciate you’re a Queenslander, but RNS has been in and out of the news in NSW for years thanks to its mismanagement and scandals.
No 395
What’s misleading? Are you disputing that Dr Jayant Patel’s heinous treatment of patients in QLD? Are you disputing that RNS allowed a lady to miscarry in the toilets?
Someone should give Joe Hockey a tape of his performances in QT. Maybe then he will realise how he comes over as a puerile lown.
I meant “clown”
BK, as part of the new order around here, I’m requiring that comments have a bit more meat on their bones than “politician X is a puerile clown”.
Fair enough William – no more like that.
But he still should have a good look at himself.
GP
While I have empathy for the poor lady involved a similar thing happened to a friend of mine 30 years ago in Canberra. Its not pleasant but it happens every day. The triage nurse made the correct decision, it was not a life threatening situation, unfortunately the foetus was dead.
Patel should probably not have been doing the operations he did, but as he is before the courts I will let them decide.
Can you explain what Private Hospitals do? Can you explain the benefits of Private Health Insurance?
Fair enough. Jackie Kelly’s involvement in the fake leaflet debacle last November implied the whole LP campaign was dysfunctional?
(Actually …)
WB, clearly you meant “puerile lown”.
I have know many lowns in my life, but only a minority of them were puerile.
No 404
1. choice of doctor
2. choice of hospital
3. ambulance cover
4. cover for non-urgent operations and other things like dental, podiatry, home nursing etc etc
There are more benefits and we could discuss them forever. The fact is that private health cover does not leave patients to the whims and rations of the public system.
I am strongly of the view that the public system should merely exist as a safety net for the disadvantaged. Everyone else should pay for their own cover.
Wrong, you get the same doctor in private or public. You think they don’t work in both?
Try getting a bone marrow transplant in a private hospital
I live in Qld. Covered by a levy on my electicity bill.
So you can get these things if you pay extra? Is this worth $4 billion a year?
1. Choice of doctor – absolutely never in any circumstance have I had any problem getting ‘my’ doctor (not that I’m that fussed anyway). But a friend of mine, who took out health insurance just so a particular doctor would deliver her baby, unfortunately gave birth whilst he was on holiday…
2. Choice of hospital – ditto.
3. Ambulance cover – dirt cheap to get without private health insurance. So I have it.
4. For which you pay extra (and then extra).
A few years ago, a friend went to buy private health insurance locally (expecting first child). The salesperson (a bit of a misnomer, as it turned out) asked her why, saying, “You’ll end up in the same hospital with the same doctor. If anything goes wrong, you’ll be flown down to the Royal Children’s. Whether you’ve got insurance or not won’t make a bit of difference.”
As it happened, her baby had a major lifethreatening congenital condition – they were flown down to the Royal, spent something like six weeks there. There were follow up stays in the following years, and constant intensive monitoring of her next pregnancy, overseen by world class specialists. Cost: nix.
I have had a couple of major operations myself over the last ten years. I have never ever been told that I would be better off if I took out private health insurance.
ruawake @ 371 -
Which is it? A good plane or a dog?
Depends on what you plan on doing with it. The critical sentence in the article you linked is:
“To compare it with the Russian Sukhois and Migs, the flankers as they’re called, is really not comparing apples with apples.”
The Russian aircraft are large air superiority fighters designed to take on the opposition’s best fighters and guard against penetrating bombers.
The F-35 is a multi-role fighter primarily suited for ground attack (the give away is the wings which are optimised for trans-sonic speeds or below), but with some stealth characteristics and a better than average radar and electronics pack. If you like an A-10 that can defend itself. It’s the aircraft the USAF would send in to support ground operations after the F-22s have sweep the battle area of all the enemy fighters they can find with the expectation the F-35 might handle the odd missed A-S fighter. But I doubt they’d fancy its chances against a number of them.
The problem with the F-35 limited internal weapons capacity – 2 bomb/missile bays, one of which we would probably need to fill with an auxiliary fuel tank, plus 2 smaller bays for short range side-winder class air-to-air missiles. Of couse you can hang extra ordnance/fuel tanks off wing pylons, but that immediately destroys the stealth. How much this matters is a matter of debate. We won’t be getting the full kit with radar absorbing coatings, apparently Howard’s special relationship with GWB had limits, and the air-intakes and nozzle (which reflect radar the most) profile is optimised for X-band radars. Against radars operating outside the band it might be less effective.
Another potential problem is that to get anywhere near reasonable performance out of the F-35 its single engine will be running far hotter than any military engine has to date. What effect this will have on reliability is anyones guess.
And that is not the only thing that is subject to guessing. The final production design still hasn’t been finalised. Until it is we can’t know if it’ll meet whatever requirements we’ve set. Anyone signing on the dotted line ATM will be buying a pig in a poke, lipstick optional.
We should have taken a long hard look at the Eurofighter Typhoon, the RAF’s choice for the A-S role but the then Defence Minister Robert unilaterally decided on the F-35 before the RAAF had even looked at the Typhoon, or, as a lower cost option, the F-15s the Koreans are building.
I would like to stand up for the NSW Health Service.
3 months ago I had a grandson born with CHARGE syndrome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_syndrome
CHARGE syndrome is a genetic defect that leaves a fair proportion (varies with acuteness) of the “”plumbing” of the body, from the groin to the skull, deformed. It is a 1-in-10,000 birth defect that has no known cause. In other words: just bad luck.
This little guy, Drew, was born with a co-arctation of the aorta (think of a pinched garden hose, restricting flow), undescended testicles, dual lower abdominal hernias, defective hearing, defective sight, probable intellectual disability, an inability to suckle or swallow and severe growth retardation. Since day #1 he has been connected to tubes: tubes to help him breathe, to eat, and to defecate. It’s likely he’ll have 20 major surgical procedures before he’s 6 years old and then he still might not make it.
To fix his aorta the NSW Care Flight service flew him and his mother immediately from Port MacQuarie (where he was born) to Randwick Women’s Hospital. The operation was performed by a specialist pediatric heart surgeon flown in urgently from Melbourne (where he was on holiday). His care – three weeks intensive – was arranged without delay or demur. He had a 24-hour senior nurse at his side (and his side alone) for the whole of that time. His mother was put up in the Nurses’ home for the whole period. At the end of his convalescence he and his mum were flown back to Port MacQuarie.
The whole process was repeated for his abdominal surgery, except the surgeon was local and not flown in from Melbourne.
He has been hospitalized ever since, on drips, tubes and life support. Tomorrow, three specialist surgeons and physicians, plus DOCS, Medicare and local social workers will attend Port MacQuarie Hospital to deliver their assessment of his condition and an interim prognosis.
In all this effort to save the little guy’s life the only thing his mother – or any other individual – has had to pay for has been her food and the odd packet of cigarettes, plus some baby clothes for her son.
I don’t know about you, but I reckon that’s a pretty good deal from a supposedly totally dysfunctional NSW health system. It makes me rather proud to be an Australian, hokey and maudlin a sentiment as that may seem.
There’s a bit of disinformation here about health from both sides.
1. Choice of doctor? Basically you get whoever your GP sends you to in private. Most of the public and GPs don’t know who’s good (most of the time it doesn’t matter). In public, you are going to be treated by a trainee registrar if your problem is simple and a consultant if it’s difficult.
2. Choice of hospital? No. You pretty much go where the specialist operates.
3. Cover for non-urgent operations. This is a HUGE reason to have private health insurance. My department has 1500 patients waiting to get into outpatients to be seen, let alone being on the waiting list. Public hospitals have basically stopped doing non-urgent operations. Being able to choose WHEN you have your surgery is also a big thing for some people.
4. The stillbirth or Patel could have happened anywhere. Serious stuff-ups are MUCH more likely to happen in PRIVATE hospitals. Basically, there are no checks and balances in private. You can do whatever you want. There’s quite a few wackos there who have been thrown out of public hospitals. If you are really sick, have complications or require complex care, you’re much better off in public although private hospitals now have excellent ICUs.
No 408
Yes, they work in both. But your claim that you have no choice of doctor is rubbish. If you want Dr X, you will have a good chance of getting Dr X. In the public system, you get whomever is assigned to you – there is no choice.
Point taken. But nine times out of ten, you can choose your own hospital.
Not covered in NSW or VIC. Not sure about other states.
Many non-urgent operations are not covered by Medicare and have large up-front costs which are in most cases covered by private health insurance.
I agree that the subsidy is questionable, but the result has been an increase in health insurance take up from 30% in 1998 to 43% today.
BB
Well said, our public health system is the best in the world – it would be better if we could get over the ideological crud.
As some know I have incurable blood cancer (leukeamia) I have never had private health insurance, I get world class treatment that is the envy of others in different countries.
GP should look at the facts, not newspaper headlines. Or would he prefer the US system where health insurance can cost more than a mortgage, or where people move states to get coverage under medicaid?
Yes! I have friends in California who pay $2,450 US dollars MONTHLY for health insurance. Lucky they can afford it.
No, I do not advocate a US system. No-one should die because they cannot afford healthcare.
I’m in a Victorian country town (as do the cases I’ve cited). So I know I’ll get whatever doctor I ask for. And, as I said, ambulance cover is dirt cheap (just paid it for the family, can’t remember the amount, but about $50 a year).
Two years ago, I had sinus surgery (obviously non essential – one of those ‘must be fixed up sometime’ things). Was referred to the specialist of my choice, saw him within the month, having had a MRI at the local regional hospital in the interim. Came out of the specialist’s with an agreed date for the operation (matter of months), could have been earlier if I’d wanted. From the day I requested the reference to the post-op visit to the specialist was less than three months.
My mother saw one of the top ENTs in the country recently. He said he didn’t care whether she had insurance or not, if he decided he needed to operate she would be in the hospital within days.
BB
My daughter was in a similar situation. I would only use public hospitals for her conditions.
GP
Public hospitals cover the cost of all of these operations but they hardly ever perform them. The up front costs occur when you have them done in private.
BB @ 415,
We have two children, now 7 and 10. [I've 2 older children 22 & 19 from a previous marraige]. For those younger two, they were both born in the US. We had health insurance and in spite of that, still had between $3000 to $5000 OUT OF POCKET expenses over the course of the whole pregnancy and delivery. The US health insurance [or lack thereof of a proper coverage] really needs to be fixed. I hope that between people like Hillary and Senatory Kennedy and others, that they can fix this under an Obama presidency ….. You wouldn’t have those kind of out of pocket expenses here in Australia.
BB
Or where insurance companies decide which doctors you can see, try seeing an “out of network” doctor in the US. The $2,450 is common plus they have a co-pay.
GP you may not be advocating a US style health care system but:
Can only result in a US style system.
Oh dear. Fielding is living in bizzaro world:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24396616-421,00.html
I believe he was also concerned about how the luxury car tax and the highest income tax bracket, may impact on low income earners.
So you want the Liberal policy circa 1984.
At least they’ve moved on.
If Rudd wants a DD trigger up his sleeve the MLS is the one. Feilding knows his re-election is very unlikely – his seat will turn Green in a DD.
Time for a bit of blowtorch. Re-introduce the bill without amendments. Do the Fibs really want a Medicare election?
Fielding is a puerile lown.
This poor hayseed from a church that has as one of its basic tenets “enterprise theology” (i.e. Jesus wanted you to be rich) is way out of depth in the Senate. Those glasses don’t help, either. They reinforce the “bunny in the headlights” look about the poor sod.
He is now holding back direct tax benefits to tens of thousands of Australian battlers who could use the savings to pay off their mortgage, or maybe get their kids’ teeth in braces, perhaps even go one better than instant noodles for dinner every second night.
And who’s this all for? A few pensioners who think (and whom have got Fielding to SAY he thinks) they need private insurance. At least that’s his stated objection.
Senator Abetz last night read out the Riot Act to Fielding in the upper chamber. The pressure was naked. “Perform buddy, or its your damn head.”
To me, Fielding is weak. He has not much spine left. I believe that if Labor show him the implements of torture he’ll cave. There is so much latent joy in looking into the finances of Hillsong; the way they have squandered government grants; how they have manipulated their position into one of patronage under Howard (now gone of course). I don’t believe it will take too much more energy to get the Fundie Senator to flip. He must know he’s a dead man walking. He should do some good before the axe falls.
Labor will play softly, softly with Feilding until he has shown his hand on all the bills before the Senate. Alco-pops and condensate to go.
Then he will need to check his gonads frequently because Labor and Libs will be after them.
Fielding was interviewed on local ABC radio recently. He referred to the ‘massive’ demonstration in Melbourne in support of a rise for pensioners – turned out he was referring to the two hundred? (if that) who turned up to strip off in public.
If he thinks that’s massive, then perhaps three pensioners ringing him up about the Medicare levy is his idea of a grassroots movement.
Interestingly, after the interview the lines were thrown open for public comment. Now, this is a very conservative electorate. Normally they’re slavering at the opportunity to lay into a Labor government. In this segment, however, every one who rang in (and this included several pensioners) said it was better to wait and have it all sorted out properly.
Absolutely! The common wisdom is that all pensioners are chafing at the bit to oust Rudd and his bunch of class traitors as soon as practicable.
The same “wisdom” said that the alcopops tax was a no-brainer loser for Labor. Yet a Newspoll today showed 57% in favour of the rationalisation (I refuse to call it a “hike”) under ANY circumstances, and a whopping 80% in favour if the alcopops tax was directed to health expenditure.
Methinks “common wisdom” might not be so common. Of course the polls evidence my contention, yet the MSM keeps on writing “Labor is reeling under the pressure of xxx” articles.
Clowns would have an excuse. Lowns do not.
‘Get Up’ have a ‘Project Democracy’ site that will inform you of the activity of your selected member in parliament and allows you email them.
I sent Xenophon a raz the other day though he is not my member. Fielding will no doubt cop a bunch of complaints too.
http://www.projectdemocracy.com/?dc=499,7897,3
“Lown”.
Sounds like Barnaby may be easier to shift than Fielding:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24396663-601,00.html
Oh OK, if private health insurance is that important, why don’t we give everyone a 100% rebate on their private health insurance bills. Or why don’t we nationalise it, and call it Medicare II.
Whether or not people join or stay in private health insurance is a private matter for individuals to decide on based on their weekly and monthly household budgets. Subsidising private companies isn’t a job for government, especially when they are effectively in competition against a publicly funded system.
Shows On
But then there wouldn’t be need for those great ads with the umbrellas – you know the ones that promised if we were all “encouraged” to join before we were 30 the premiums would stay low… Must check to see how that’s going…
Don’t the Libs believe in private enterprise. That government should keep it’s nose out of private companies? That private companies should be allowed to flourish or flounder on their own merits? Hmm, but the Libs want to prop up private health funds.
I think it is Libs believe in anything that gives money to big business including taxpayer money.
Gary
In the UK, the private system is totally separate from the public system. Medicare (or whatever they have) doesn’t contribute to private health, to the best of my knowledge. So private health is really expensive and only about 10% have it.
They don’t believe in true competition, just look what they did with Telstra. If they had any sense they would’ve broken it up before selling it, but they just wanted a few big payments, instead of actually restructuring the sector to improve competition.
That’s why broadband in our country is a mess. I live on the edge of the metro area but can’t even get ADSL broadband because it won’t work with my phone line.
Intersting Question Time today (well ok, not really but…) Turnbull seems to be letting others ask a lot more questions than Nelson did; at least today they didn’t sdo their usual schtick of asking each quesiton using the same into (eg “does the government really understand…”) – although yestarday it was all “Why can the PM go all the way to NY but he can’t …
I can’t say Turbull is any better than Nelson thus far in parliamentary terms. And I think Turbull is much less comfortable with the “on indulgence” speeches (though admittedly Nelson just lived for them).
No 436
ShowsOn, structural separation would not have solved your woes. Every other major telecommunications company in the world is vertically integrated because it provides cost synergies in an industry where high capital costs are involved.
A structurally separated incumbent would result in duopolistic market conditions as the biggest players in the market would be favoured over the smaller players. The current market, despite its flaws, is highly competitive with hundreds of ISPs offering fixed line and wireless services. Furthermore, regardless of size, every ISP has equal access rights to the Telstra copper network.
No 431
I agree. But the issue here is not the private health care rebate, but the medicare levy.
Oh OK, so lets copy what everyone else in the world does even if it is really stupid.
I guess that gives you SYNERGY with your approach to climate change!
This is not what I was suggesting. I was proposing a system where any company that wants gets access to the same hardware at the same fee. Instead of the current system where Telstra sets the fee, and then charges its own ISP – Bigpond – lower fees than it charges every other company. Face facts, it’s a complete mess created by the Liberal Party’s communications policy.
This is absolute rubbish because ISPs have to rent Telstra’s DSLAMs at inflated prices. They can pay to install their own DSLAMs, but now Telstra is saying that they don’t have enough space left in their exchanges!
It’s actually the Medicare surcharge levy – a tax introduced by the previous government.
You know, that government that supposedly didn’t like taxing people.
ShowsOn @ 441 -
A t..ttt..tax? But….but… isn’t that legalised theft??
The previous government also introduced, wait for it, the luxury car TAX! (25%)
They also introduced the wine equalisation tax
They also introduced a 1 cent per litre tax on every litre of milk as compensation for industry deregulation.
They also introduced a tax on imported ethanol!
That previous government enjoyed legalising theft.
What a cop out. You don’t have an argument.
That’s exactly what happens now. The problem is, it’s always one rule for Telstra and one rule for the rest. Why do you think broadband investment has stagnated? Because it’s cheaper to gain access to cheap, regulated copper than it is to invest in new networks.
Rubbish. Telstra cannot sell retail broadband services at a lower price than it wholesales those services. Also, how do you explain the fact that nearly all competitors sell broadband at cheaper rates than Bigpond?
That’s just a delusion, not a fact. Australia has a very competitive broadband market with hundreds of companies supply services via wireless HSPA, DSL and HFC cable.
Rubbish, if the prices are so inflated then explain how all those competing ISPs manage to supply those wholesaled Telstra services at prices significantly below Bigpond?
Not even Telstra can defy the laws of physics.
Diogenes,
Thanks for your contribution at 412. It really cut through the crap!
My better half (also a medico) always reckons you definitely want private if you think you’re going to get that troublesome knee replaced, etc, etc.
But if you wake up at 3 in the morning with severe pain in the chest and left arm, don’t stuff around, head straight for the nearest large public hospital!
Now, now ShowsOn, to hightlight the Liberal’s hypocracy on tax is one thing but to rub GP’s nose in it, that’s another. That’s gold.
No 443
The new government, even more so.
Because Telstra doesn’t want to face more competition.
So instead they just don’t let other companies access things like their Foxtel cable network, which should be open to competition.
Thank you for supporting my point. They shouldn’t OWN the exchanges. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be able to hold other ISPs to ransom.
Wow! All of a sudden taxation policy isn’t so black and white…
OT but latest US Poll, Obama out to a 9 point lead over McCain.
No 448
Nonsense. Terria, one of the major consortium’s bidding on the National Broadband Network is seeking a protected monopoly to stop anyone competing with their investment should they win the tender. Telstra is not seeking one.
News Flash: Optus has had a competing HFC cable network for the same amount of time. The ACCC need not intervene where there is already infrastructure competition.
In reality your idea is that Telstra should do all the investment, but let everyone else leech of the network. Sorry, but not only is that absurd, it’s not even real competition because everyone would simply compete on price rather than on innovation and new services.
I don’t support your point because it’s arrant nonsense.
Yes they should. Telstra shareholders paid for them.
More rubbish. All the ISPs below Telstra, particularly iiNet, Internode and Optus, are experiencing massive growth.
The idea that they’re being held to ransom just isn’t supported by the reality.
scorpio, it’s the narrowing…
The Libs introduce a GST (”T” standing for “legalised theft”) on just about everything, along with ShowsOn’s list and Labor “enjoys legalising theft” even more than the Libs? Is this man serious?
It does, because it’s principal argument for the recent tax increases is that the Liberals introduced them.
No 454
Its not it’s.
No 451
consortiums/consortia not consortium’s
Gp -Oh, that explains it then. What are you talking about?
No 452
Dario when is the first debate?
Friday night US time I think… Sat morning for us. Should be on ABC TV.
No 457
The ALP enjoys stealing from people more so than the previous government, otherwise we’d have a better argument underpinning the tax increases (LCT, alcopops etc) than “well, the Libs introduced them”. Oh, so that makes it all better….
If Rudd and Swan were serious, they’d abolish these dumb taxes (yes, dumb, even though Cossie introduced them), and actually walk the walk on their “root and branch” reform of the system.
Debate screening info
http://www.abc.net.au/corp/pubs/media/s2369375.htm
No 461
Cheers Dario.
So giving $30b tax in income cuts while raising other taxes only by a billion somehow means this government taxes more than the previous one? You need to check your maths GP.
that should have read ‘$30b in income tax cuts’
GP
The Labor Government’s tax take as a % of GDP fell by a full percentage point in this year’s budget, so even it it true what you say that the ALP enjoys stealing from people, they do so to a lesser extent than the former government: 06/07 26.6%, 07/08 26.9%, 08/09 25.9%.
Let me get this straight GP, because the Libs introduced a “legalised theft” and Labor wants to increase or decrease it (Medicare levy for some) that means Labor “enjoys legalising theft” even more than the Libs who introduced the GST as wellas that tax in the first place. I don’t get it.
No 465
This is getting boring. Who cares.
There seems to be huge volatility. Early last week McCain was up by 20 E.C. votes according to this:
http://www.pollster.com/
Now he’s trailing by over 60. It seems that the bad economy is working for Obama, which makes sense, last time there was a Democrat in the White House the budget was balanced, and the economy was actually growing. And of course Democratic administrations going back to the 1930s produce – on average – higher economic growth than Republican administrations. Curiously, Republican administrations on average spend more than Democrats.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/03/opinion/oe-kinsley3
{Dario when is the first debate?}
GP, what happened to Google.
Not getting lazy again are you?
This is wrong. The tax to GDP ratio of this years budget shows a reduction compared to the last budget of the previous government. Therefore, by your absurd standards, the previous government enjoys stealing more than the current government.
I think a process of self-reflexivity has occurred!
I still can’t believe Fielding voted to keep a tax on middle class families, even after an extra $600 million has already been put into public hospitals.
I hope the Victorian ALP refuse to do any deals with him at the next election. In fact, they should go out of their way making voters aware that he voted to retain such a stupid tax on families who aren’t rich.
Hello!
“The previous government also introduced, wait for it, the luxury car TAX! (25%)
They also introduced the wine equalisation tax
They also introduced a 1 cent per litre tax on every litre of milk as compensation for industry deregulation.
They also introduced a tax on imported ethanol!”
Not to mention
the electricity delivery tax
the plumber tax
the water delivery tax
the motel tax
the telephone provider tax
the electrician tax
the hot but not cold chicken tax
the heater repair tax
the internet provider tax
the concreter tax
the roofer tax
the computer repair tax
the air conditioner repair tax
the carpenter tax
the cable guy tax
the builder tax
the brickie tax
the interior decorator tax
the carwash tax
the dogwash tax
the hogwash tax
the all the services I cant think of at the moment tax
and of course, the tax on tax
ShowsOn,
It’s not just about the money. You also have to turn the money into doctors, nurses and facilities.
Not sure how much I trust such glorious institutions as the NSW Health Department to be able to do that.
ShowsOn, I note you’ve admitted defeat by not continuing to debate broadband.
Sure, but I think the public health system will work better with $600 million going in, rather than the previous decade which saw $1 billion in real terms taken out.
Oh so sorry! You were BORING me, so I no longer CARED.
I was going to reply to it in detail, but I read this:
I couldn’t stop laughing, because most of Telstra’s phone exchanges were actually paid for by Australian TAXPAYERS, using money appropriated out of general revenue when Telstra was called P.M.G, and later Telecom Australia.
ShowsOn @ 467 -
And of course Democratic administrations going back to the 1930s produce – on average – higher economic growth than Republican administrations. Curiously, Republican administrations on average spend more than Democrats.
So do the Libs. Both have this carefully crafted image of being the parties of small government, low taxes, and all round fiscal conservative superior economic managers, but in reality they are the exact opposite.
Unfortunately, the Big Lie technique really does work, especially when their oppositions are regularly plagued by bad economic luck. For example, almost all of the problems Labor faced in the late 1980s/early 90s can be attributed by the disastrous Savings and Loans debacle created in large measure by that spendthrift Reagan. Sadly, it looks like Labor is again falling victim to the stupidity/culpability of another Republican President.
It is no coincidence that the Great Depression, the Savings and Loans recession and the current crisis all occurred during long periods of Republican occupation of the White House.
Yes, that’s why the Liberals have created this myth about “managing the economy”. The economy extensively manages itself, but they have to pretend they manage it so they have something to talk about. I mean they aren’t good at talking about productivity, innovation, climate change policy, education, health. So they just talk about the economy as a kind of abstract end in itself, rather than a means of creating a fairer society.
Of course the Liberals never mention that almost every other developed country went into recession in the early 1990s. After internationalising our economy in the 80s, how exactly were we to avoid the same fate? I think one of the reasons we are still growing well is because we had a central bank willing to jack up rates to control inflation induced – in part – by the Liberal re-election spending spree. In the U.S. they did the absolute opposite, they kept interest rates ridiculously low to keep the gravy train moving.
Reagan wasn’t that much of a spend thrift. When he started as president U.S. debt was about $70 billion, when he left it was around $150 billion. George W Bush has just taken Reagan’s spending policies to an absurd level.
To be fair, one of the main reasons behind the 1929 crash was the U.S. unilaterally increasing tariffs, which resulted in other countries doing the same in retaliation. That threat to free trade killed investment, profits, and ultimately employment.
Irrelevant. Telstra shareholders paid $60 billion to taxpayers in order to take ownership of those exchanges. That they were built by PMG no longer matters, and if you still think it does then you have no understanding of property rights.
If the purpose of the economy is to create a fairer society, then why do you proclaim that it extensively manages itself? The reason why socialists intervene is because they think they can make it fairer.
Because the word extensively doesn’t mean completely.
Socialism is dead. Move on.
A few other polls out showing Obama leads.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/
Seems to be a daily occurence now – a slow but steady drift.
wrong thread
YAY! Federal government to abolish the milk industry deregulation TAX imposed by the legalised thieves / socialists in the Liberal and National parties:
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24398885-5006301,00.html
It’s the economy, stupid.
Who you gonna call,
Ghostbusters!
GP will have to find an interesting new way of opposing this removal of ‘legalised theft’…
I get the feeling that Fielding voted against the Medicare levy bill simply because he could. I think his reasons are nonsense. The people he is talking about would be the ones eager to get out of the damn things anyway. And of course the reverse never happened, we never saw premiums go down.
The danger with independents is if all they want to do is get their names mentioned to attract voter attention. And we have seen that already with Fielding’s stripper with the pensioners stunt. It is a position of all care but no responsibility.
Senate blocks Medicare levy bill
“Family First voted against the Government’s change to the Medicare surcharge levy thresholds because it would impact and hit lower income families very hard when they renew their health insurance,” he said.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/24/2373504.htm
He considers luxury cars a necessity, and milk a luxury. So I’m sure he opposes this policy.
Not Dead Yet!
Read between the lines.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24395351-2702,00.html
Have a read of Tuesday’s Senate Hansard. Senator Erica Betz constantly attacked Fielding over his support for the luxury car tax. So it is possible that Fielding has just sided with the opposition on the Medicare levy because he doesn’t want to be seen to be supporting the government too much.
I certainly can’t make sense of the policy. If can’t see people on really low incomes who struggle to pay for food and petrol paying for private health insurance. Thanks to Medicare, private health insurance isn’t a necessity.
The levy is of course a Howard mechanism to give money to health insurance companies and no doubt part of a strategy to entirely privatise the health insurance and hospital industry. Not often you see a government make you give money to a company and penalise you if you dont.
Not to mention the 30% private health insurance rebate!
The Liberals are just being unreasonable on this. OK I can see how their ideology stops them from raising the rate to $100,000. But $75,000? That’s not rich. Leaving it at $50,000 is unfair, and demonstrates that the Liberals – at this stage of opposition – just aren’t willing to compromise on anything.
No 486
I don’t oppose it.
Once again ShowsOn has avoided the broadband debate.
No 492
Your definitions of rich and poor are arbitrary.
Someone should really shoot Conroy for this ridiculous explanation of wireless broadband. For someone overseeing the biggest project since the snowy mountains scheme (by his own definition), it would seem he is somewhat out of his depth:
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds240908.pdf (p71)
Oh! SO SORRY! I forgot that I’m your slave and I have to do whatever you say.
Your definition of “arbitrary” seems to be arbitrary.
I will have to go into ‘Get Up’ and give Fielding a decent raz with no doubt many others. And will add Scullion to that as well.
I can’t believe that at least one Lib or Nat wasn’t sensible enough to understand they had the chance to vote on a giving a heap of people in their electorate a tax cut.
Commsday published this piece on Henry Ergas, chairman of Concept Economics, which details his new book criticising the ACCC’s oversight of telecoms:
http://www.commsday.com/node/269
No arguments aye?
GP, I’m really not keen on people making demands of other commenters. If you feel like chalking up a win on your own personal scoreboard, go for your life. It’s of no interest to anybody else.
Although I was against a DD election at first, it’s starting to look like it may eventually have to come to that if Fielding keeps on caving in to the Liberals’ pressure. Labor is not being allowed to govern properly, with Fielding’s dumb argument about poverty stricken families not being able to afford health insurance once premiums go up being the latest example.
Let me see if I’ve got it right…
These are the poor dirt farmers who need luxury Range Rovers and not Toyota Hi-Aces. They are in town quite often, driving there in their gas-guzzling fully optioned but utterly necessary vehicles, because they have to look for cheap petrol – even one or two cents cheaper – which they will be unable to find because Labor’s Fuel Watch will force prices up. Granny in the back is sick and in a wheel chair, needing premium Medibank Private health insurance so she can have a chance at walking again. But now this is impossible, because nasty Mr. Rudd wants to force them to pay higher premiums by the mechanism of giving the workers on their farm, who earn even less than they do, a tax break on their own public system health costs. The farm hands are, it seems, cheering on the squatter family as they leave the property every day in their quest for cheap fuel. Of course, if Fuel Watch was allowed to pass then the strugglers in their 4WDs needn’t waste time or gasoline driving into town to search for a discount because they could look it up on the net. However, even there they are confounded, due to Labor’s lack of action on broadband which cuts them off from the world. Meanwhile, Granny’s pension is stuck at the poverty rate and her daughter’s carer’s allowance isn’t even getting a look-in. Labor should fix that too. Today.
At the same time father uses up some precious petrol and goes off to a National Party meeting where he hears Labor can’t manage the economy because they want to put taxes up, not all taxes, not even put them up nett, but amazingly just the taxes that are designed keep him, his wife, Granny, the five kids and the Range Rover on the poverty line. Labor can’t even manage the surplus. It keeps getting cut all the time in the Senate, over silly things like pensions, LCT and medical expenses that they should not touch, because the Coalition will be back in power next election due to Rudd being a “oncer” (and in the meantime they should do as little damage as possible). The problem with most Australians, the squatter knows, is that they have an overwrought sense of entitlement. They expect the government to live their lives for them, cradle-to-grave, to bail them out of all their troubles. Lucky *his* family values aren’t like that, eh?
I’m sure I missed something, but is that roughly the narrative?
Steve Fielding has committed a (reverse) Meg Lees.
He is Leesing himself.
(Leesing is a form of political prostitution/suicide)
The Victorian ALP – on whose preferences Fielding was elected – should give themselves a giant collective pat on the back for allowing the “Family First” stooge into the senate.
And ALP types have the gall to complain about The Greens…
Labor will have to do another deal with Fielding on the Medicare bill!
I’m angrier at the Liberals, who are still behaving as if November 24,2007 never happened. For crying out loud, Rudd has a mandate to govern and get bills passed!
The Libs in parliament are a shambles, it’s like watching a train wreck, they’re a bunch of spoilt 3 year olds!
BTW: G’day Fagin, it’s your old mate Landslide from the other place!
How’s Wagga Wagga?
Turnbull just now on AM, asked by Uhlmann how Labor is “mocking pensioners”:
No answer.
Asked why the Libs did nothing on pensions last year…
“That was then. This is now.”
I guess he means it all went belly-up on November 25th.
Oh yes, and he said the first thing Labor should do to fix things is not act like a rabble in Parliament! the economy is too important for petty point scoring (like 38 disallowed points of order from the Libs yesterday, I suppose).
And so much for Turball representing something new……it’s still the same old obstructionist bunch of cry babies masquerading as a political party!
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy with Fielding, but he’d be irrelevant if the Liberals in the Senate stopped the stunts and started acting responsibly!
Just read up on the Clerk Of The House’s “defiance” of the Clerk Of The Senate: duelling opinions.
The COS argued that pensions were a standing appropriation of moneys and that there the Opposition Senate bill did not seek to appropriate *new* monies. Hence, not ultra vires under s53.
The COH argued that any *extra* monies (in this case $1.4 billion) sought to be appropriated were in fact “new” appropriations. Hence ultra vires on s53.
Further, s56 of the Constitution mandates a letter from the Governor-General recommending that appropriations bills be considered in the Reps. As such letters can only be sent at the request of the executive Government (i.e. Rudd and his ministers), and as no such letter existed, ultra vires s56.
Also some questions regarding House Of Reps practice and procedure, which were not strictly constitutional matters.
Albanese’s Constitutional summary:
Albanese’s political summary:
All in all, a pretty conclusive argument. All this piffle about duelling Clerks on the ABC is a Coalition talking-point. “How dare those Labor interlopers defy the *Upper* (i.e. more “senior”) House? Are they out to wreck *all* our institutions? etc. etc.” Crap.
As a PS…
One of the spin-doctors on ABC (Sydney) Radio’s “The Spin Doctors” segment suggested that Rudd will fall from grace and Turnbull triumph over the trip to New York. He said that a snap poll of listeners would prove him absolute correct. Snap poll taken, or rather organised itself:
26 “He should be in New York”,
1 “He should have stayed home”
Another phoney issue.
Bushfire Bill: I’ve given up on ABC Radio in Sydney! That morning show has gone downhill in recent years, and the “Spin Doctors” segment is just an excuse for 2 liberal party hacks masquerading as PR experts to bash Labor!
At least Alan Jones doesn’t pretend to be anything other than a right wing shock jock!
And I wrote some harsh words yesterday abotu Deborah Cameron, but, to her credit, Cameron was quite triumphant in presenting the refuting figures to the Spin Doctor and the audience. As the segment progressed she kept updating them. Final figures were 30 to 3 in favour of Rudd going.
So much for a “master” of spin. He had to admit he was wr… wr… wrong. Who’d pay an idiot like this?
I’ve come across a few of these snake-oil merchants in my time and mostly they’re just urgers out for a percentage – any percentage – of the take. They’ll start out with 10%, which will buy their (non-specified) “:influence” and “skill”. When you say “That’s a bit steep,” they drop the 10% to 5%, and then 2% if you keep complaining. Even 2% is something for nothing, so they’re ahead if they get you to agree. Classic “Nigerian Scam” con-man technique: let the mark beat you down on the con and think he’s winning. If he only pays you $10, then that’s $10 you didn’t have before. Repeat as necessary.
We are seeing a massive fraud being perpetrated on the public by types like this and their pals in the Press. We keep hearing about how “The Rudd government is in trouble” (presumably as opposed to the “Turnbull” government). Or, “Pensioners are angry…”. Or “Kevin-747 is a lughing stock.” etc. etc. But there is never any serious polling on this. There are polls on two flies crawling up a wall, on whether Turnbull is more popular than Nelson, but no polls, or very few, on the actual issues they claim, from their News Ltd. and Fairfax boiler rooms, are affecting the nation’s thinking.
OK, so 35 callers to ABC sydney radio ain’t scientific either (even if the guy DID say a “snap poll of your listeners”). However, on alcopops the other day there *was* a proper poll: 57% in favour of tax increase under any circumstances, rising to 80% if the proceeds were spent on health matters. Yet how often do we hear about the government being “out of touch” on this issue? They’re so in touch it’s uncanny!
What is going on out there now is a massive spin operation, using unscientific postulation in a very professionally designed disinformation campign.
Roxon challenges Fielding to block the Medicare tax cut again:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24399954-601,00.html
From that short article:
Suddenly Harry Evans is the “Go To Guy” on matters procedural. Nothing against Evans, but this new meme that “he is not to be defied” is gathering strength.
Bushfire Bill: right on mate!
Well said!
To be fair to Harry he has a reputation of getting stuck into the Govt. of the day. He gave Howard a spray for abusing the Senate enquiry system when 27 enquiries set up by the Govt. were not acted on and the Govt. didn’t even bother to respond to them
Harry needs to get real though, the Govt is formed in the HoR not the Senate.
When the “snap poll” of listeners proved the Spin Doctor wrong, he caved immediately. This is the “If not 10%, then 5%” part of the scam. They move on to their next mark.
Similar to the “Betting Advice” or “Sure Thing” scam:
You get $100 each from 100 punters on a footy game. You give a random 50 the tip that “Side A” will win. The other 50 get told “Side B” will win. That’s $10,000 straight up.
Out of the 100 punters, 50 will lose, so they won’t come back.
You then get another $100 each from the 50 winners. That’s another $5,000.
On the third game you only have 25 punters left, but they’re two-time winners using your advice, so you can slug them $500 each for “premium” tips. That’s another $25,000.
When the final 12 or 13 contact you to thank you, you’ve “gone on leave” with their $40,000. But that 12 or 13 will forever tell their friends how wonderful you are at picking winners. Bide you time for a while, move locations and then use their praise as testimonials.
Voila! We have a Spin Doctor.
The House of Reps and Senate have their own departments remember (which obviously creates a lot of waste and duplication).
Evans is just defending his territory as the Head of the Department of the Senate.
I was careful to say “nothing against Evans” in this matter. He DOES have a rottweiler reputation, no fear or favour to either side. It’s his elevation to the role of arbiter of procedure for BOTH houses that concerns me. The insinuation, to my mind, has been that because the Senate is the “Upper” house, Evans’ opinion somehow has more weight than the Clerk of the House of Representatives’. Here we have Labor in the lower house “defying” their “betters” in the upper house. Wreckers!
In reality both Clerks are both completely independent of each other and can disagree all they like: it’s the Speaker and the government of the day that decide this matter, in the HOR. That is as it should be, in my opinion.
Albanese’s basic argument was that no money bill appropriating any extra money can be introduced anyway in the Senate, and certainly not put to the HOR without a letter of recommendation to the HOR from the GG. This is designed to guard the right of the Executive Government to allocate money for various expenditure categories.
The Clerk of either House does not tell governments what to do.
“Entire economy at risk – Bush”
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24400359-31037,00.html
OH REALLY!?
This guy is great, he’s totally on top of EVERYTHING
(that was happening a month ago)
Yeah, it does smell fishy… the ENTIRE economy?
However, I was listening to James Shug this morning (early morning London financial correspondent for the ABC, 5.10am), and he’s usually pretty straight-up. Given that he works for Westpac, who would be a potential beneficiary, he was pretty admant that the bailout – or at least some kind of bailout – was necessary, and soon to “unblock” the financial pipes. Apparently banks are not lending to each other, even on a routine day-to-day basis, as they are concerned that they might not get their money repaid by the end of the day.
I’m no financial expert (although I do know what “short selling” is), but it seems to me that if the bailout doesn’t proceed there may be a massive dummy-spit from Wall St. It only reinforces the concept that they are blackmailing the entire world, of course – “Bail us out or the World Economy gets it!” – but what is there that can be done? I’m not caving in on this, or being defeatist, but should we call Wall St.’s bluff? (especially on severance payouts, which apparently they still think they are entitled to, despite the near ruination they have brought down on us all).
The perennial problem of bias in the media wouldn’t be a problem if we had a great diversity of ownership and a non-partisan ABC. The ABC and media ownership was sabotaged by Howard. Now that will work fine for the Liberal party and has been so far – but if one particular owner should change their mind on politics it could back fire. In the meantime for Labor the only hope is in the growth of formal and informal on-line information and news channels.
It might be beneficial for the Labor party to develop Real Clear Politics etc type Australian sites and promote them and to make them interesing/diverse enough to attact a variety of users but not just purely poltics. Thus you have something to suite the very young, young, yuppy, middle aged etc – the idea is to have something that attracts, authorative etc and then you have an audience who may look at some of the politics and PR etc.
I am sure we the should call Wall streets bluff. You can bet otherwise that half the bail out will dissapear down mysterious holes never to be seen or known about again. And those CEOs are really playing with fire – there will be enough gun owning loonies about that would become incensed over them using bail out money for their payouts. but this should be the US thread I guess.
Erica Betz has called the LCT obscene – he does not like Family Last’s amendments. Sorry Erica if your rabble had passed the original bill the amendments would not be in place.
What, it’s obscene that Porsche drivers in Mosman are getting taxed?
The Liberals once again demonstrate what their true priorities are
… which was Swan’s point yesterday, in responding to Truss’ question. If the Coalition and independents, plus Greens hadn’t forced the amendments there wouldn’t be the anomalies, derived directly from the amendments, that there are now.
Abetz’s point is, I guess, that a law with anomalies is a bad law. But that is entirely for the two houses – HOR and Senate – to decide. They have apparently decided in their favour.
Who is this bill going to upset? Porsche and RR drivers, for one. No-one cares about them. Then there are people – country folk or city slickers – who want to purchase all-bells-and-whistles 4WDs, for another. I guess there could be a few stragglers who’ve got a reasonable case, but their increased tax is a deduction.The 8% increase becomes a little over 5%, after deductions. Say a shearer, working out in the mulga in the heat and dust, needs a Range Rover for $70,000 or so. The extra tax would boil down to about $3,600, after deductions. Spread this over, say, three years and it’s $1,200 a year.
My solution?
Keep the car for four years instead of three and pocket the saving, even under the next tax threshold. My car’s 11 years old and still goes beautifully.
Or buy a cheaper car, like a Toyota Hi-Ace with all the trimmmings (seems to be the standard car out there in the bush anyway).
Hardly “obscene” propositions.
Boy o boy, these Libs sure know how to look after each other.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24398762-5006301,00.html
Here’s a classic example how the current crop of MSM commentators join the dots, throw in a little summation and guess what the people involved might be thinking, topped off with a bit of outright fabrication.
These people should be ashamed to have such dribble exposed in print. The whole MSM commentary area seems to be going from bad to worse.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24399207-2702,00.html
Was there an interview with Richard Pratt on the subject?
In fact, the only concrete evidence provided was that Pratt would NOT sever relations.
What a crock. People get divorced, it happens everyday. People re-marry, it happens everyday. Some people get divorced more than once, some people are onto their 3rd wife and had to remove an ear-ring.
But if you can link “famous” people it becomes “news”, despicable.
BB,
This sort of rubbish is almost worse than some of the concocted nonsense that the tabloids and gossip columnists vomit up regarding so-called film stars, TV stars & sporting celebrities & celebrative celebrities such as Paris Hilton etc.
The Australian’s Brad Norington, a quirky yet usually well regarded scribe in that newspaper’s patriotic family, today claimed that billionaire Richard Pratt was the godfather of Deb Beale who was recently in the newspapers.
VEXNEWS has learned this is not the case. Ms Beale has a godfather who is not Richard Pratt.
Mr Norrington was not immediately available for comment on his embarrassing error.
http://www.vexnews.com/news/836/erroneous-brad-norington-the-latest-casualty-in-the-war-on-error/
In other words he made it up.
It is possible to have more than one godfather – but it would be unusual for a Jew to be a godfather since it’s a Christian office.
Rudd should sell off their ABC. I’m sick of our taxes paying for a Lib run propoganda machine.
Pretty good up todate coverage on the money mess here
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/
Not quite sure that “attempting” is the right descriptor here. I think “was” is a more appropriate word to describe Norington’s little piece of creative writing.
Don’t these people feel “any” embarrassment about writing such dribble.
Then of course we would end up with the worst of both worlds: another commercial channel serving up populist crap along with a braindead right-wing bias.
RWFs always hated the national broadcaster. They never had the courage to privatise it (as ideology demands they must). So they did the next most destructive thing: turned it into a right-wing dribble pool sans advertising.
Howard may be gone but his odour continues to permeate public institutions such as Aunty.
Speaking of Aunty: get ready for a whole hour of Turnball on Q&A tonight!
I can hardly contain my enthusiasm!
I gave up on Q&A after episode 2, but if Allbull wants to dig another hole, I say let him.
Adelaide accent – tick (how did he get that in Eastern Sydney?!)
Smarmy grin – tick
Corporate uniform – tick
Lack of any self serving ideology – tick
Self importance – tick
Continued failure to understand what the electorate voted against at the last election – tick, tick, tick
How could he go wrong?
That’d be NON-self serving ideology, of course.
And yes – most politicians can tick those boxes, but when your aim is to lead your party to victory, you need to at least be seen to not have all the boxes full.
At this point he’s just reinforcing the electorates view of himself, which despite the protestations of the MSM, isn’t flash.
Sounds as though the condensate tax made it thru the Senate
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24400906-29277,00.html
Gondolas make an appearance in QT. Appears the appellation ‘Merchant of Venice’ is here to stay.
Roxon very strong on her subject. Hockey is sounding more bitter than usual.
I would suggest the Liberal party would happily swap the Condensate decision for the medicare levy decision. Mates is mates after all.
onimod i think you just described our Prime Minister too!
Roxon and Gillard absolutely kicked the Libs’ collective ass. It’s Girl Power day in the House.
Can I post on QT if sounds like it is a real question, rather than rhetoric?
I think Swan was just caught out. Even though Local government is not part of the Commonwealth’s responsibility, he was asked whether he had any information on how many councils were exposed to sub-prime. Apart from saying that more were exposed in NSW and WZ than in other states, it seems like he fudged it a bit.
Then again, if such questions were placed on the notice paper, perhaps he could give a better answer.
Glen – as I stated – the lot of them fit most of the boxes.
The electorate doesn’t believe he has all the boxes tick though, and realistically yours and my views are pretty worthless on their own.
Your issue is that the elctorate’s view differs from yours by several hundred thousand voters; and no, just because it’s popular doesn’t make it right.
Cheers
I suspect the Opposition probably need to look for non mainstream things to ask questions about, something people are less likely to be across such as the exposure of city councils. Just waiting for the next question on a economic acronym taken from some text book.
OMG… not ANOTHER censure motion.
Kevin-747, pensions, complete economic illiteracy etc. etc.
Gagged by Albanese! LOL.
So yesterday… but will probably be reported as “pressure on the government”.
A lovely cross-chamber interjection from Albanese during the division: “They haven’t got any better Brendan.”
And are the MSM getting stuck into the Libs over blocking the Medicare tax relief bill?
I bet not!
Frivolous censure motion – just grandstanding for the cameras and papers. An abuse. Sohould be gagged
Has an opposition in previous parliaments ever disrupted proceedings with so many irrelevant points of order?
What a rude, offensive bunch this mob are, particularly when Gillard or Roxon are at the dispatch box!
QT seems to be getting pointless.
Stupid questions.
Stupid answers.
Too many Dorothy Dixers.
FAR too many idiotic points of order.
It’s only there for the theatrical value, and it’s pi$$ poor theatre at that. A panto at the local Westfields would be more entertaining.
553: The last opposition was pretty bad. I recall Albanese was a big fan of points of order.
BB, I beg to differ, QT is front line entertainment. I didn’t happen to be at home today at 2pm but I plugged in the headphones into my mobile and tuned up ABC radio and listened to the lot
…… I wouldn’t miss it for the world. And since the questions alternate sides, you can’t say that there are too many dorthy dixers as everyother one will automatically be such. I agree with you on idiotic points of order and I attribute that to the fact that the Libs don’t know how to handle opposition, they haven’t been there in so very long 
So James because the last opposition was bad in your view, it exonerates the oppostion from this woeful performance? I don’t think so.
It hasn’t been the same since Keating left politics, QT used to be required viewing/listening when he was in full flight!
Of course it doesnt. Don’t make straw men. Let’s not pretend that it’s only the current opposition that have behaved this way. Question Time is a shambles and both sides are responsible.
My recollection is that when Labor were in opposition most of the points of order were raised by the leader of opposition business.
What we now have is a free for all, opposition members who asked the question always make frivolous points of order, trying to debate the Minister at the table. Ironbar and Bronny have not changed they always jumped up even when in Govt.
Avuncular is not doing his job.
Now you may understand why Keating put Ministers,including himself as PM, on a QT roster. Which of coarse was continually ridiculed by the then opposition leader Howard.
James, only one side is asking the questions, interrupting the answers and pulling on frivolous no confidence motions. You must be watching a different QT or is it you are watching it through blue eyes? But you are right to admit it is a shambles.
Bushfire Bill @ 521 -
Yeah, it does smell fishy… the ENTIRE economy?
Might be an exaggeration, but perhaps not by much. I understand that for some time over last weekend it was impossible to hedge U.S. dollars at any price. The system just ground to a halt until a number of central banks entered the market to sell U.S. dollars to anyone that wanted them.
Such hedging contracts are vital insurance for buying or selling good or services in that currency so this had the potential of closing down a very large slice of international trade, and even affect exchange rates for other currencies.
So governments need to tread very carefully or the whole shebang could spiral out of control very quickly. However, I’m a long way from being convinced that throwing money at the idiots/crooks/charlatans/all of the above who caused the crisis is the best way to go. I suspect a lot of that the money will end up disappearing into unintended pockets.
Don’t know enough about the nitty gritty to come up with an alternative, but has anyone considered helping the mortgagees who took out the bad loans to continue paying them off. In many cases they have been, to varying degrees, the innocent big losers in this debacle. I’d much rather see them get a roof over their heads at a cut rate than the shysters become even richer. By resuscitating the housing market it’d help other Americans too.
PS: And why the %$#@ have I just seen an ad for low-doc mortgages from a certain home loan company? Don’t these cretins read the papers? IMveryunHO they deserve to loose every cent they lend on such loans, plus do time at Her Majesty’s pleasure!
The Libs have turned QT into a farce lately
It has been a farce for a long time. It was a fare under the last government. It is still a farce. Not much has changed. This is not something that just suddenly emerged on November 25 of last year.
It’s no more farcical than it has been for the last 30 years. You need to remember it’s not really a question time, it’s a test of strength, and today Gillard and Albo won hands down.
yeah, true
Adam,
@ 566 – [ You need to remember it’s not really a question time, it’s a test of strength, and today Gillard and Albo won hands down. ]
This is why it is so much fun to watch
….. I wouldn’t watch QT under the Howard government UNTIL Rudd got into the opposition leaders seat and the Labor fortunes turned the corner. Once that happened, QT was fun to watch because our guys were on the rise 
……
It has degenerated into a complete shambles with the Liberal party in Opposition. I think the Speaker ought to make the ruling that points of order when given should immediately state the type of point to be made – ie ‘relevance’ before saying anything further.
I thought it was rude trying to censure the government while Rudd was overseas.
Turnbull is relying on the usual bluster and confected outrage, which he believes is shared by most of the rest of the community. Every newspaper and media outlet, it seems, is now into anger. Anger at errant footy players, abducted children (which must be one of the greatest beat-ups of the century), Rudd’s trip overseas, scandal and trivia about c-list “celebrities” no-one has ever heard of.
This all plays to the Great Australian Wowser mentality. As long as we can pooh-pooh something, or be livid about some else’s tribulations, we’re happy. as long as they’re looking down morally on someone else. Ecery day it’s Christmas for wowsers here in Oz.
Not the slightest effort is made to examine issues or dig into them in any depth at all. For instance, Rudd’s trip is depicted solely as tourism, nothing more, nothing less. Rudd is supposed to give up a trip planned well in advance, and very arguably (if serendipitously) vital to the nations welfare, in order to come back and answer pointless rhetorical questions in the Bush Capital for an Opposition that can’t accept it has been defeated, and doesn’t realise the people have more on their minds than whether the Libs can win the next election.
And if that doesn’t work, they put the antics of a pig on the front page of every newspaper and headline of every TV news for almost a week.
In the rest of the World, huge issues are being decided, particularly in america. Our PM is in the the thick of it. Yet all we get is carping and whingeing about “free holidays” at taxpayers’ expense.
And don’t get me started on alcopops and the “salt of the Earth” Bundy drinkers who, it appears, can’t live without a swig at 3.30 after work. Is this crap really IMPORTANT to the national discourse when the world is melting down, the Budget is under pressure from a destructive opposition and a pig is on the loose in Uki, NSW?
Last days of Rome Bill, last days of Rome.
Rudd roams, while Turnbull fiddles.
The reason QT is a farce is that the opposition (any opposition) wants to catch the government out rather than get genuine answers to questions and the government (any government) wants to show off what they are doing as well as degrading the opposition. If they were serious the opposition would would provide the government questions to the government before hand and the government would be required to answer the questions in as much detail as required without waffle. But neither side is serious about it, let’s face it.
I agree we are seeing the tantrums of Howard’s media sychophants – the murdoch papers, ABC and some in the Sydney Morning Herald. Everything else is failing, now it is just blatant false trivial attacks on the government bereft of relevance and truth. That they try and trivialise the PMs visit to the US at this time is beyond belief and irresponsible – they it seems are willing to trash Australia to help their Liberal friends.
Turnbull even though gagged achieved his aim and the papers dutifully report it as the government avoiding discussion on pensioners etc.
Nothing to be done except to continually ridicule those papers and reporters who are disgracing themselves – it remains a long term internet record. And it tells them that people out there can see right through them.
Gary
I think there’s two problems.
1 yes – neither side is serious about the intent of Question time. Do we really need questions without notice in this day and age. Is it not possible for all the questions to be posted on the web at 9am and replies posted within certain time limits?
Is public speaking really a measure of ability to govern?
2 We all refer to those in the parliament as THEM. They’re not. They’re US. They don’t believe they’re US either, which just sends it all around the circle again.
Parliamentarians are OUR elected representatives.
It’s a two way street that the majority of us just aren’t interested in paticipating in, and I suspect in most circumstances we’re getting what WE deserve.
Well the joys of Parliament are over for two weeks. Looking back over the past two weeks we have a new leader of the rabble but not much else from that side.
The Govt has got its Car Tax and Condensate Levy bills through, despite the rabble’s opposition. Alco-Pops likely to get through and the Medicare Surcharge looking like a great DD trigger eventually.
The rabble kicked a couple of own goals at the beginning of the week, losing much needed momentum. Julia took them apart in Rudd’s absence and the rabble looked like they were looking forward to getting back to their electorates. (In fact the member for Kalgoorlie did his usual and got sin binned on the last sitting day).
But I bet the media pundits say that Talcum’s week was a triumph.
Good to see some bludgers have finally worked out that QT is not fulfilling its original purpose.
Thomas Paine @ 569 – I remember when Howard was PM and the speaker would resort to requiring the point of order be stated first up. He would then immediately declare there was no point of order and turn off their mike. Remember that relevance is the only point of order for questions officially (although sometimes it is necessary to direct a minister to address their answers through the speaker.)
The only thing worse about the dorothy dixers in this parliament is that the ministers’ answers consist of reading a prepared speech, not exactly questions without notice. I remember an occasion in the last parliament when a Liberal backbencher, asking a question, was asking, word for word, the previous question asked on their side. He noticed his mistake, turned the page on the document he was reading from, and started reading ‘his’ question. I can’t help but think the only difference now is that the answer would be written on the same piece of paper.
Bill @ 570
I’m sure Rudd cares so much about when the opposition decides to attempt a censure:-)
Has Tony Abbott gone on leave or is he locked in a cupboard somewhere?
Apparently Fielding blundered again today, voting to end debate on the Medicare bill, rather than continue on and put his own amendments.
The Greens are complaining that he says he has all these ideas and suggestions to offer, but just as everyone’s about to hear them, he votes to gag himself! This has happened several times now.
If it’s not a blunder, then Fielding sure is sticking tickets onto his pin-striped lapels. Could it be that he sees himself as this tough negotiator, in some private, smoke-filled room, ensconced in toe-to-toe with the Labor crew, thrashing points out one by one? What ever happened to debate in the chamber, where it’s supposed to be?
He asserts for every person given tax relief from theMedicare bill, three or four will cop it in higher premiums. I haven’t seen one iota of proof of this bald statement yet, and I haven’t head of one independent expert agreeing with it. And we’re certainly not going to get any, y’know, argument from Fielding. It’s spit the dummey, take his bat and ball home with him until the government agrees in full.
This Assemblies Of God drone is turning from mildly amusing turkey into the full-catastrophe laughing stock. He doesn’t seem to understand Senate procedure. He’s wasting so much time with his gaffes and ill-thought-out tactics, even the bloody Greens look like sober citizens by comparison!
God forbid he should fall under a bus and go to heaven. The ones coming up behind him as potential casual replacements look ever kookier.
They seem to be hiding him from Gillard. She has a long history of embarrassingly emasculating victories over him.
I think it’s deliberate. He has to get himself in the headlines otherwise he will have no chance at the next election. Headlines probably won’t lift that chance by much… but it’s all he’s got.
Yep predictable
ABC online “Govt ‘out of touch, out of its depth’ ”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/25/2374533.htm?section=justin
The ABC has now dropped the opposition says from its headlines.
Bob Brown has started calling Fielding “Family Last”
Tanner ridiculing Allbull in QT said that Brenda used to sit on the fence but at least he knew where the fence was. They crossed to Brenda smiling and nodding.lol
Julia Gillard has handled QT with ease and good effect all week. She’s no Sarah Palin!
Pathetic… as usual
I bet Brissenden (spelling?) on ABC 7pm news will show the clip of Allbull full of bluster as his parliament report as well. Won’t see Tanner Julia etc making him squirm of course. He’ll probably repeat again how the Govt is under pressure over pensions and talk up what a great job Allbull is doing.
Well I guess if anyone knows where Albrechtsen lives they can go ask her whats going on with the ABC.
Crikey have put it in some perspective:
Fielding got 56,376 votes in the 2004 election, or 1.77% of Victorian votes. That’s just under one-sixth of the 330,000 Australians who will miss out on a tax cut because of him. In proportion, about 83,000 Victorians will miss out.
I noted this afternoon that the SMH had the headline:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/family-last-medicare-bonus-sunk/2008/09/24/1222217331213.html
… now “disappeared” off their front page on-line edition, but there for all of one hour.
Abbott is overseas at a conference in Hawaii last I heard.
Ah yes… the endless quest for the Old Coconut.
Rudd-namied, I’m afraid, Tone.
Has Abbott got a time share on Smirks hammock?
The Summing-Up…
A terrible week for the Opposition. Turnbull is no threat. Red Julia was ascendent (and iridescent). Rudd Away From Home, no problem. All we need now is Anthony albanese to be let completely loose and the triumph is complete.
Australia is in good hands.
WOODSIDE Petroleum has posted a 67 per cent jump in first half profit, driven by high oil prices and a stronger production performance. Australia’s second largest oil and gas producer posted a first half net profit of $1.016 billion.
So lets round things out a bit, Woodside makes $2 billion a year after tax profit. Yet they want to keep a 31 year old subsidy? Poor buggers will only make $1.4 billion a year now. Or to put it in really simple terms $3 million a day.
Yet this is described thus “This is an absolute smash and grab raid and I want to style it right now as the drive-by shooting of the century,” says David Johnston.
Bull Butter.
An interesting article written after the 2004 election. Explains, among other things, how Howard granted self-funded retirees a $200 “utilities allowance” (read: election bribe), while, for appearances sake, the less well-off pensioners only got a token $100. Gittins makes the point that Howard gifted the over-55s, strategically, as they were his most consistent support demographic.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/12/1097406574037.html?from=storylhs
I note the absence of the usual commentators from the Right.
I’d say they’re still in shock. A truly awful 7 days for them.
The Mouth From The East has fallen on deaf ears.
Can someone please tell me who one senator who represents buggar all of the population can hold a govt, who won a clear majority in the last election to ransom.. I am not the smartest cookie i am a truck driver and as such blue collar worker but this is indefensable. If it was libs 50/50 blocking well you would go okay politics will work it out . but one jesus preacher flexing his little muscles for his 15mins of fame is a disgrace. I hope this triggers a dd if only to get rid of this parasite.
The Peeps,
Ask The Labor Party, they preferanced him.
TO william .
I quite liked the live blogging of QT . as where i work i ave neither acess to tv. or radio and the blogging was at least a good commentary as what was going on and not a 20 sec media grab.
Your site of course but no harm done i thought unless this is now a eletist blog and no other views will be entered into.
I like your live blogging for elections as well.
It’s O.K., The Peeps. There’s all sorts who post here or read others’ posts. Don’t let the turkeys get you down. As to why Fielding has so much sway, it comes down to the numbers in the Senate. The Libs plus Fielding have the numbers to defeat the government.
cuppa
Thanks for the link:
“If the pollies can’t control their urge to buy the oldies’ votes at every successive election, they’re pouring petrol on a generational powder keg that may one day blow up in all our faces.”
How prophetic from 2004, not much has changed in rabble politics.
To be perfectly honest I’d rather Fielding, X & the Greens provide some resistance to the government rather than have them end up the way Howard did with no review whatsoever. As long as it doesn’t get too out of hand of course…
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/brough-quits-liberal-presidency/2008/09/25/1222217423498.html
RU, the way the Liberals have amplified this they would have you believe that pensioners only began whingeing on 25 November 2007. But as Gittins points out in the article, they were vociferous under Howard too. “Howard’s Whingers”, as Gittins called them.
Brough stand aside? Isn’t he just an anomalous leftover pending the formal recognition of the LNP by their feds? Typical dummy spit.
[The Libs plus Fielding have the numbers to defeat the government.] + the Nats remember.
It’s Time
There are very deep divisions over the National Party and Santo Santoro faction take over of conservative politics in Qld. My view is that it will spawn a new conservative party.
Hearing about Brough now is no different to Karmichael hunt’s girlfriend hitting the press for the first time.
Who?
What?
Why?
And in related (and equally relevant) news I saw a rosella on my balcony today.
There should be 30-40 articles on the Wall Street plan above this in the pile.
Has anyone seen an article on the drop in the dollar in the last few weeks; less than a month ago we were headed for parity and beyond eh?
We really do have the attention span of a gnat.
(Last days of Rome, last days of Rome)
ruawake
Brough has been the pinup boy of the dissenters (god knows why). His comments seem more definitive than Costello that he is out of here. So the dissenters may lack someone of any public recognition to rally around.
WTF? The Liberal Party of Queensland will no longer exist once the federal Libs make the LNP the Queensland division of the Liberal Party.
Looks like more grandstanding from Brough.
onimod
Your post at 608 is the largest pile of steaming brown stuff I have read in days. The Conservatives in Qld are deeply divided and this affects Federal Politics.
The Australian dollar goes up and down, being at parity is not neccesarily a good thing.
The great US meltdown is the great ho-hum of the year. It is probably a good thing that the world pisses them off as the de-facto reserve currency and switch to the euro.
Then maybe they will sort out the huge problems they have as a nation.
The Liberal and National Federal members are both members of the LNP and their respective parties – it is in the LNP constitution.
It must be the only party where you can be a member of another party.
William
“The results of the survey will thus provide a fascinating measure of how much collective wisdom there is in this particular crowd. My guess is: not very much.
Prove me wrong, readers!”
was your hat on the line?
On a slightly different tack, where are the refugee hordes?
Which refugee hordes would they be?
Exactly. I thought there was supposed to be a run on now that the government had relaxed mandatory detention.
Looks like Q&A has stacked their audience with Liberal voters. It’s going to be an hour of suck-up questions.
Yep. Two minutes in and I already wanted to chuck. Even the introduction was a suck-up.
Dario says “where are the refugee hordes?”
and what happened to the millions of $s in comphensation saying Sorry was going to cost us?
AmI paying for this Liberal Party advert on Q&A?
Oh god what a total suck job this program is…
Actually it is quite a good insight into turnbull
payout on costello,dis kerry,admit he smoked pot
ideal leadership material for the fibs
on to another suck question from a kid
Yes, more ABC pro Liberal Party bias and sucking up to Turnball!
Tony Jones makes me sick!
finally a serious question and turnbull makes a joke
…and he avoids the question
And have you noticed the audience is stacked with young Liberal toffs?
Well, Turnbull has charisma – he really does. In person he is quite enigmatic. On the surface he is bright and shiny and people like to be near him – which includes media personalities. Underneath the surface though, there are some quite murky little unpleasantries lurking around. Malcolm has had his hand in a lot of pies in business – it will be interesting to see if any of the little stories about him ever hit the light of day or if people keep their mouths shut. He really has a dark side as well.
hard not to with the questions being dished up, although the homeless question made a nice change
‘if we are returned to government’
The born to rule mentality as strong as ever
What does a man with a personal weath of $160 million know about being homeless?
Give me a break!
This has got to be the biggest heap of “waffle” that I have experienced for a lomg, long time.
Turnbull makes Beasley look good.
Having to sit through a repeat, word for word, of the guff he sprouted in the press conference just after being elected leader is unbearable.
Probably trying to make sure that absolutely no one could possibly miss the message he wanted to express last Tuesday.
Clearly not a Costello fan.
And did you hear his comments on parliamentary question time? Hypocrite!
It will please the Lib die-hards, nothing more
taking off the blinkers and looking at talcum’s performance i would say that this is one polished media performer,more and more I thinkabout it, he is going to present himself as rudd lite but with abit more chutzpah.
God he’s worse than Beazley
Five minutes crapping on about morgtage loans… he’ll put everyone to sleep
I want Brendan Nelson back LOL
Maybe, Gusface. But he isn’t really under any pressure is he? It will probably remain a mystery as to how he would function with the type of scrutiny and pressure that Rudd gets.
No. It’s been a snoozefest in comparison to the audience Rudd had for his Q&A.
another suck question
Sigh.
Unbelievable. Only side of politics is disruptive during QT.
Yeah, that’s right. Labor. Who would have thunk it.
Turnbull must be watching a different QT than the rest of us.
Yes, a complete suck up from Aunty tonight!
Something has to be done about that board, and please fire Tony Jones, he’s an embarrassment to impartial journalism, along with the rest of the press gallery!
I agree with you Gusface. I guess the question will be if the Libs can tolerate his small ‘L’ liberal social bent. Some will welcome it (yes Mr Pyne, I’m looking at you), but I don’t think Nick Minchin, Tony Abbott and their ilk will be so keen. It would be really interesting to see if the ALP started introducing more progressive social legislation – I can’t see it happening in their first term, but talk about possible wedges! I must admit I’m a little shallow, I’d just love to see Tony Abbott’s head implode!
Mr T may work out and he may not… but he is no fool and you guys really shouldn’t underestimate him.
Lot’s of people will like what they see in him
Question to Tony Jones. Are you an impartial journalist?
Answer; What’s impartial mean.
Question to Tony Jones. Aren’t you embarrassed?
Answer; I don’t know what embarrassed means.
More waffle. Bring back Horatio!
Dario: at least Nelson in his ineptness was entertaining!
What a total suck-up that was. Unbelievable. Must have been in the ABC’s Liberal party HQ studios.
The last questioner was left shaking his head at Turnbull’s answer.
This time tomorrow he will probably be still shaking his head wondering what in blazes Turnbull was waffling on about.
I have taped Q&A and had planned to watch it later. Not now. Thanks.
William was your sigh re my 613?
Fiz- Turnbull has an extremely expressive persona-contrast that with rudd’s much more wooden delivery
I think talcums approval rating is going to come close to rudds sooner rather later
Hey William. how’s things been from your POV since the move to crikey!. Are you happy with the move (serious question)
I think it’s gone quite well
I reckon 75% of the questions would have been fluff. Can’t remember one answer from Turnbull that actually proposed anything of substance, it was pretty much just all about how the government was doing a bad job.
GB, you can safely tape over that guff without ever watching it and never ever have to wonder if maybe, just maybe, you might have missed anything.
I can guarantee that that was a totally wasted 60 minutes.
Turnbull did a great job, tonight I am liking the bloke the more I see him.
We’re lucky to have him, god Abbott or Robb could be leader if Malcolm wasnt!
I suspect Turnbull will make the Federal Liberals much more competative in the months ahead.
Maybe, but the election isn’t for another 2 years.
The discussion board is open on the Q&A website. Time to tell them what we thought of that pathetic display.
http://www2b.abc.net.au/tmb/Client/NewMessage.aspx?b=114&m=19403&ps=20&dm=2
Gusface @ 654,
If Turnbull keeps that sort of thing going, he will already have got as close to Rudd’s approval rating as he ever will.
Gusface – again I agree. As I said earlier, he is definitely charismatic and I think we will find women are the big group that moves when it comes to approval ratings. But he has a murky underbelly that has shown he is also capable of being conniving and vindictive. He will also go to extraordinary lengths to make things work out in his favour. Will he have enough self control to keep that hidden?
Geeze Glen, you’re easily pleased.
I agree with you though, “god” would be a better choice.
polyquats, maybe we should just do “cut & pastes’” from this thread directly to the Q&A discussion board.
well, that nice Mr Rudd did
Scorpio
once again its perception-the public see the image ,not the in depth analysis at places like here, and turnbull is a performer that rudd can not be
Glen
all turnbull has to do now is repudiate the ugly side of howardism and I think he will gain a chunk of the middle ground
Fiz
Mrs g didnt like talcum till tonight-now she thinks he is quite funny and seems like a decent bloke
Gusface, a bit unlucky there. You got the devil’s number.
scorpio@667
or as my familiar would say “dont you mean lucky muhahaha”
WOW! Turnbull did a HUMANITIES answer to the HECS question.
The lady complained about having a huge HECS debt, so Turnbull interpreted this as assuming the woman wanted her education to be completely free!
Gusface @654: not particularly.
I hope Rudd doesn’t wast his time meeting with the US Treasury Secretary.
From this article, it is clear that Mr Paulson hasn’t a clue what is happening and what to do about is.
I was a bit concerned before. Now I am really worried. This joker is being compared with Rumsfeld, Chaney & Bush.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24399961-23850,00.html
Turnbull is not an unknown to the public. He’s been around for awhile now. Why should he becoming leader make any difference to the public’s perception of him? Both Nelson and Rudd on the other hand were unknowns relatively speaking.
We’ve already seen polls on Turnbull. People have definite opinions on him. I don’t recall the polls suggesting that people are asking Malcolm who?
Just one last thing on the Q&A, how many people would be watching it really?
Sometimes what men think is chrasimatic women find creepy.
The people have seen Turnbull around for a while now, especially as a minister under Howard. Which begs the question how come his personal ratings are so awful – scored very badly on arrogance and very very low on turstworthy/honesty not to mention the other traits. People have seen the real Turnbull already. That would indicate many have made up their mind already so he has his work cut out. He will have to do a few more of these PR type shows to get them to think he is something else.
But he need not fear I guess as I am sure the murdoch media and ABC will continue to act as his campaign team up until election day to remake his image.
GB, probably more than will be bothered to watch it next week after tonights effort.
As for my opinion on Turnbull, I like him but then Iliked Nelson as a person to. I don’t like their policies and wouldn’t vote for them on that basis.
GB, they are a breath of fresh air compared to their predecessor.
I fail to see how people thought he was charismatic or genuine. A subjective thing I guess. There is something about Turnbull’s way of speaking and mannerism that make him seem fake or disengenuous and just a little creepy. I suspect thats where the high dishonesty rating might come from. Unless they have long memories of his water and pulp mill ministry days.
But different strokes for different folks.
Next week it’s Smirky, Roxon and David Marr on Q&A!
Too many jokes as well, just avoiding any serious stuff. When he finally did get in depth he ended up waffling on about the mortgage market for 5 minutes a la big Kim.
Shows on,
As someone with a huge HEX (intended sp) debt (and incidentally in my 50s), I also object to the dichotomy of either HECs or no HECS. I am happy to pay my HECS debt, but it gets awfully hard when the fact that I am paying this debt isn’t taken into account for all the other to-ing and fro-ing of my entitlements. For example, I am now expected to support my daughter, aged 20, who is studying interstate, while paying over $200 pf in HECS. Add to this, the stoopid indexing that added nearly $2000 to my HECS debt while I was on a govt funded post-grad scholarship. And as a mature aged person coming back into the workforce after long years raising a disable child…
Like I said, happy to pay the HECS debt, but please, can they cut me a little slack due to the fact that I am supporting an adult daughter at uni and caring for a disabled (now) adult?
When I started my degree, about 12 years ago, there were heaps of mature age students. Really mature age, not just 2 years out for high school. In the school where I studied, about 1/3 of the total cohort. I look out at the class I teach now, and there would barely be 10% real mature age students. Maybe this is due to the catch up (people my age who missed out first time and have come back to do it), but I really think the HECS conditions have turned people off.
Sorry, enough personal whining, off my hobby horse, and back to grumbling about Allbull.
“Sometimes what men think is chrasimatic women find creepy.”
Well Thomas, I’m a woman and yes, I’d call him charismatic, not creepy. I just happen to know a bit about his underbelly and I can’t discount that when weighing him up.
I think it would be foolish to underestimate him. You can be sure that the ALP aren’t. That said though, he still represents a party whose policies have been rejected by Jill and Joe Citizen. I’m not sure he can drag all those conservatives to the centre.
The big test for turnbull will be if he goes on Rove
(scuttlebutt suggests young talcum is aiming on a media ‘blitz’ to reinforce his personable side.)…. for those with long memories tintin followed much the same path upon his elevation to opposition leader.
I agree with you, I have no problem with HECS in principle, the problem is that the fees have increased at a ridiculous rate over the last decade. To compensate, the previous government simply lifted the pay level that payback has to start. But all this did was make students get ever bigger debts that they will take longer to pay back.
I agree, I think that’s a far bigger battle for him than anything else. The leadership spill was only seperated by a handful of votes in the end.
Gusface 654
you should be proud mate, at least you got a reply
I am sure the ALP takes all of them seriously. They would be mad not to work on Turnbull’s dishonesty perception.
I wonder if our own Family First Senator Fielding has been indulging in a bit of this?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24401645-12377,00.html
Remember, she could be just one heartbeat away from having her well manicured finger on the “red Button”. Scary, huh.
Is Turnbull the first Liberal Leader to admit using pot as a youth???
Federal maybe. But pretty sure Brogden admitted it.
Well at least she’s safe from witch craft, so that cannot be an excuse for pushing the button lol!
Scorpio, but what does this have to do with policy? American elections are sadly all about smeer and both sides do this and both sides are wrong to do it they should stick to the issues.
When Tony Jones questioned if he had had a puff recently or before he went on tonight, Turnbull evaded the question.
Probably the first to “admit” it, but most probably not the first to inhale.
I think that Nelson mentioned that he had a puff or two at Uni.
I’ll bet Malcolm is hoping he doesn’t end up the same way!
What, stabbed in the back and betrayed by the religious, fundy right.
I’d say there was every chance he could.
glen
i was talking to my brother in canberra about holt today as it turns out
1.he was an early environmentalist in a 60s way
2.he certainly lived a casual lifestyle and considering the times may have had a puff
but kudos to talcum for being forthright(though the cynic in me says that he was simply clearing the decks of any “unpalatable” revelations)
Like I said, smart guy.
Inhaling is one thing, lining up on Ita’s stomach while Kerry watched from behind the wardrobe is oh so much harder to sell to the target demo
“Inhaling is one thing, lining up on Ita’s stomach while Kerry watched from behind the wardrobe is oh so much harder to sell to the target demo ”
Perhaps Mal’s not the only one who’s been inhaling?
You’ve had a go yourself have you Dyno?
Not on Ita’s tummy, that’s for sure!
Turnbull has very little hope unless he gets some pretty strong help from the media. So we will wait and see how brazen they can be.
I don’t think thats true TP… I think he will do quite well… I don’t believe it will be enough to overcome the massive hurdles he needs to jump in order win… But I truly think he will start off Ok and slowly become quite a problem for Rudd
The wild card in Oz politics is the economy. Turnbull at least looks like someone who might have some ideas, so if the economy tanks, you can expect the Libs to be competitive. NSW is also going to be a drag on Rudd at the next election, whatever he does.
If the economy stays solid Labor will increase its majority by a reasonable amount, and Turnbull will be lucky to keep his job long enough to fight the next election.
TP
you are being sarcastic?- “unless he gets some pretty strong help from the media.”
most of the msm are a faction of the fiberals
I think talcum has the smarts and following tonites performance I expect his profile to continue to rise
BTW the public aint into smears anymore ala scores etc,I think they are looking to someone they like (rudd) as opposed to someone they looked to for direction (howard).
Talcum senses this and accordingly is out to make himself a “man of the people”
an uphill battle if ever there was one
Dario
objectively-Is rudd anymore a “man of the people” than turnbull and if so,where are the differentiators?
I voted for Rudd and still support tintin 100% but I personally would never presume him to be a “man of the people” yet turnbull has a certain charisma that seems to make him more personable IMHO.
Immediately after the election I had hopes for Turnbull as a future Liberal leader because he immediately accepted that Workchoices and other things from Howard were dead and burried. Seemed like he would bring them back to the center.
But his tactics so far have been fairly dismal, the same old opposition and negativity for its own sake and this awful ‘I am good’ habit. And it seems he will be a permanent prisoner of the right who it seems have quite a few numbers. It appears they would undermine Turnbull if he looked like moving to the left, even if he became popular. And I think the right dont mind self destructing in order to keep everything to the right.
If he is able to recover that awfully low level of trust people have in him (I still find it surprising it was so strong) he still needs to be able to develop meaningful policies and be able to sell them. He is not a good salesman that I have seen, on the contrary he comes over as not believable. He will need a fair bit of help from the media to manufacture some characteristics he really doesnt have.
And I certainly wouldn’t be under estimating Rudd – he pulled off a magic trick last election and had the master electioneerer Howard total beaten and down trodden. Not that anybody would under estimate him.
As I ponder the reporting of the press gallery glitterati on the brilliance of Turnbull and the imminent defeat of Rudd I wonder if this is a consequence of their having generally consistently got the reality of last years polling movements so wrong. Maybe it is not just the Coalition who seem to think it was just some technical error in vote counting or a mass momentary madness among the voters that brought their Government to a momentary halt. Maybe the press gallery, in a form of denialism of their failure in their professional punditry, are basing their current predictions on a form of wishful thinking. This is not to say that they are all Coalition supporters, but that their egos need the massage that sucess of the Coalition at the next election would provide. ie it is easier for their egos if, having predicted the miraculous escape of Howard for all last year and being proved wrong, a return to Government by the Coalition at the earliest possible moment must now be predicted and hoped for.
The danger of this for Turnbull is that the scenario is, on the current evidence, unlikely to pan out this way. Journalists being infallible will not accept that there was a flaw in their forecasts and so will look for a scapegoat. Guess who? Turnbull will be vilified for losing an election that the press gallery had prematurely declared “unloseable”. They will hound him from office, assisted by the hard right of his party and those of the Coalition who had (have?) swallowed the line that the Rudd Government is definitely a oncer.
No I think Rudd comes across more as a bureaucratic nerd, but that was exactly the right type of leader that was needed to push out Howard by not scaring the horses on the economy. Let’s be brutally honest… the current government is in its first term so they are going to have to be pretty damn awful to get voted out in two years time. I’m not sure Turnbull going for the ‘man of the people’ mantle is particularly smart… I mean he’s seen as arrogant and untrustworthy in the polls after only just getting the job!
I think people do strongly accept Rudd as a man of the people and accept that he is a nerdy bureacrat that tries hard to communicate with them.
That is born out in those personality ratings.
Turnbull -v- Rudd
Down to Earth 36% – 67%
Down to earth is not something you would automatically say of Rudd since he speaks the way that he does – but I think people allow for that and accept that he is really trying to communicate with them and to be honest with them. The take him as genuine.
Turnbull’s rating is much lower and I reckon shows that he will have trouble getting his message across.
Honest
Turnbull -v- Rudd
23-53%
There it is again. People accept that Rudd really is trying to do his best and trying to tell them how it is. They don’t think he is telling them b/s
Arrogant
Turnbull -v- Rudd
56% – 25%
Arrogant is not neccessarily bad. But Rudd’s low rating is surprising. But it shows people really have come to accept the nerdy bureaucratic Rudd for who he is and accept that he is genuine about what he is doing.
Turnbull is seen as twice as arrogant. Depends on what type of arrogance it is they ascribe to him. Is it ‘I am good let me tell you’ arrogance or a natural unintended arrogance from a gifted person. I suspect there is a lot of self agrandising arrogance being seen in Turnbull.
Turnbull is no doubt aware of all these things [Hewson reckons he would be] and thus the efforts we have seen to try and manufacture a different Turnbull through the media.
Those three items together though indicate people think that Turnbull is not a likeable person. But as it is only a few short polls that have said these things I guess we shouldn’t read too much into them.
Earlier in the year the media kept on going on about how the honeymoon was really over – but not in the context of the polls, they [milne i think it was?] intimated the media were going to give Rudd a hard time. And sure enough from about April they went totally negative on Rudd and tried taint his character in various ways. It was premeditiated and for no other reason than to bring down Labor ratings.
I think its great that people say things like… “the nerdy bureaucratic Rudd for who he is”
I don’t accept for a second that’s what he actually is, but I’m very impressed that he got people to believe it.
Smart Guy, that geeky Mr Rudd (just don’t tell anybody)
Oh I think he is a nerdy bureaucratic type but and lot more besides. He didn’t cause Howard nightmares without being a very sharp and strategic thinker with a load of ego and determination.
His personality is that of a nerdy bureaucratic type. Behind the scense he is demanding prima dona with a rough temper. People are aware that along with his public personality he is also a highly intelligent person.
He is no charismatic Hawke.
But people dont mind that he is a nerdy bureaucratic type that doesn’t speak their language. In fact there is probably a certain comfort in it.
Nothing smart about saying you have smoked dope now days. That is very old hat and stuff all care about it – who hasn’t tried it once?
Like his Vaucluse rented apartment this is Turnbull trying to impress with a non silver tail background.
Thomas,I agree with you.I have always found Turnbull to be exceedingly smarmy and or creepy.On the other hand my sister, who married into the landed gentry thinks he is very charismatic.I did a quick poll of women I know and all of them said there was something “off” about him.
Well, substance abuser that I have been (and still am sometimes) in my life, I’ve only ever smoked dope a handful of times. Didn’t like the effect. Tried uppers just once when I was a kid. Nothing else. That’s it for my drug-taking life. Was always around dope smokers until I was about 35, but never got into it myself. It was something about not being able to remember the beginning of a sentence by the time I got to the end that unsettled me, and turned me off it. So, as far as my experience is concerned, it’s eminently possible to be around drug takers and not indulge, without being dishonest about it.
I got into QANDA last night as Turnbull was stumbling over the homelessness question, using the fact that the Matt Talbot hostel is in Wooloomooloo (inside the Wentworth electorate) and that somehow or other this meant he was in sync with the homelessness issue. I thought he was embarrased by the question and fluffed his lines on it.
But so many of the questions were about his wealth, you could hardly blame him for dodging around the issue, or even getting sick of it.
It’s pretty clear Turnbull is able to get down and dirty with “ordinary folk” (e.g. the story about the egalitarian showers at the Bondi Icebergs), and that’s probably a good thing in his favour. It struck me that he has a sort-of dual personality. When he gets up to move a censure motion his voice changes, as does his demeanour, and he becomes the barrister again, the silvertail with an apparent born-to-rule attitude. I don’t know which Turnbull is the real one.
One thing I do know is that he’s probably smarter than many of his shadow front bench and on Labor’s front bench for that matter. He has a very engaging personality and gets on well with a wide range of people. However, I think he realises there’s a lot of hard work to do to get the party back into shape, and that he’s playing to the denialists in the Liberal Party – for the moment – to try and get their spirits back up and a few points back on the polls. Eventually though, he’s going to have to do some solid policy work, get rid of the deadwood, and quit the grandstanding. He’ll have to convince his party that this is the only way to go, too. That’ll be the hard part. Most of them still sincerely believe a mistake was made last November and that all they have to do is hold on for a year or two and the world will catch up with them.
The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare has turned uot some interesting figures today.
http://www.aihw.gov.au/mediacentre/2008/mr20080926.cfm
scorpio @ 671 -
From this article, it is clear that Mr Paulson hasn’t a clue what is happening and what to do about is.
I was a bit concerned before. Now I am really worried. This joker is being compared with Rumsfeld, Chaney & Bush.
Oh, dear. And there was Turnbull on AM yesterday telling us: the world is lucky to have Hank Paulson as US Treasury Secretary right at the moment.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2373734.htm
Imagine how much worse this would be if the world had run out of luck and Secretary Paulson had fallen under the proverbial bus last week!
Of course Turnbull’s judgement may be clouded by: “I’ve worked closely with Hank. He was the chairman of Goldman Sachs, the senior partner when I was a partner of the firm.”
Wonder what they worked closely on? Bundling up low-doc loans?
Perhaps time to crawl into the financial bunker and hope a General Wenck manages to break through!
BB,
It’s hard for the Liberals not to be aware of the Mathew Tallbot Hostel in Woolloomooloo,
as their State Party HQ, 104 William Street, sits right on top.
Also on their door step is a famous transvestite pick up place.
margaret @ 716 -
as their State Party HQ, 104 William Street, sits right on top.
Also on their door step is a famous transvestite pick up place.
You haven’t seen Dolly hanging around the front lately flashing the fishnets by any chance?
Sorry, 140 William St.
Mayo,
these girls are have standards, Dolly”s way past it.
More lightly-substantiated conjecture from Dennis Shanahan, man of the people who can sense the slightest nuance of public opinion:
This is written in the context of Rudd’s trip to New York. Shanahan is on it with him. There is little mention of the agenda of the trip, what was accomplished and so on. All there is is criticism of the fact the trip was undertaken.
I think even Shanahan realises that there hasn’t been too much pressing back here that needed Rudd’s personal, on-site attention. He’s talking about perception (one of his favourite subjects). Not for Dennis an analysis of facts or figures, or goals achieved. He only wants to tell us about what other people think, more accurately: what Dennis thinks they think.
These “reasonable people” would presumably include political editors of national daily newspapers, but they prefer to carp on about “perception” and “suspicion” in the minds of the uneducated, forgetting that arguably it’s their job – if anyone’s – to do the educating. Fat chance of that with Dennis Shanahan on the job, I suspect.
Dennis argues that Rudd should stick to the original reason for his trip to New York, planned months ago, and then “reasonable people” would accept it in the spirit of bi-partisanship. He doesn’t seem to consider that if, even if serendipitously, another good reason for being in town when the economic fate of the world is being sorted out pops up that this shouldn’t be added to the agenda and the justification for the journey. No, Rudd should stick to a dry mention of world poverty, an address to the UN and some meetings regarding our clean coal plan as his sole reason for being in the Big Apple. Then, I suppose, Dennis could rip into him for waffling on about long-shot, long-term issues instead of getting down and dirty with world financiers and doing his bit for the Australian economy. “Hello? Mr. Rudd? There’s a world crisis on and you’re here to waffle about coal? Gimme a break!”
I wonder whether Rudd was supposed to ignore the financial crisis altogether so that “reasonable people” could flay him alive for neglecting the interests of the country that he leads when he had the chance? This article is Dennis’s pseudo-sophisticated, high-intellectual mash up of the Daily Telegraph’s shit sheet campaign to get the words “Kevin-474″ on the lips of Bundy Coke boozers across the nation.
The basic tenet of Shanahan’s article is that Rudd is being defensive and that the circling sharks sense something is terribly wrong with a globe-trotting PM. this is bad form, shows he’s weak and will be a oncer etc.etc. It’s all in those little pieces of paper he shuffles around his desktop, nightly.
Well gee, Dennis, he’s being defensive because he’s being attacked by partisan hacks with an axe to grind and who, “owning Newspoll”, think they have a special insight into the minds of the Australian voting public.Just like all the other times, eh? The “Old dog” and the “Sausage Sizzle”. Remember that? Or the “Rudd is too close to China” syndrome? Maybe we can even resurrect the several dozen times the “honeymoon has been over”?
As far as I’m concerned, if Rudd can answer his critics by pointing out extra opportunities that have cropped up since the trip was planned, then good on him. Just perhaps it was good luck for us the trip was on in the first place. Maybe you’d like to write about that, rather than nit-pick about parochial “perceptions” you claim to understand, with hardly any evidence presented – for years – to support that dodgy contention.
While you’re at it, if all you can do is whinge, and it’s a total crock, send your bloody ticket back next time before you go.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24402636-17301,00.html
I notice that AM ran a fluff piece on Turnbull using last nights stuff. To be expected of them now days. Turnbull would probably get on fine if he were part of the Labor party where his politics might more easily sit, though we are yet to see the whole of it. Interesting to read his childhood piece getting down on Menzies and Liberal governments.
In addition to his public perceived personality problems, namely honesty and not being in touch, he has to try and live in a party that had 41 not wanting/liking him. He wont be able to act on Climate Change, Gay rights, killing Workchoices or running with the Republic because his own party on the whole is against those things. And he is going to have that problem with a lot of policy. If they want to have a chance of success they will have to let him have a free hand as Labor did Rudd and that will mean a lot of policy they do not like. I can’t see them doing it.
Dennis is suffering from a cultural cringe – what are we doing out in the big wide world, doesnt Rudd know were are not good enough for that, nothing out there for us, and he should be looking after the corn and chooks back home.
Sounds like Dennis got on the wrong plane and has ended up somewhere else if this is the only stuff he can come up with, sitting in the central location of world events and where the world is waiting to see what happens. No pulitzer prizes for Dennis. That Dennis fails to focus on the major events and the purposes behind the trip reveals him to be exceptionally irresponsible, small minded and a poor journalist. I guess the pain of losing Howard and Costello still hurts him, the greiving isn’t yet over.
Turnbull is likeable in certain circumstances. That has been established on several occasions, including last night. He’s not a total silvertail toff. His huge money pile is more than even yer ordinary well-connected Sydney High boy could expect. So he’s a self-made man into the bargain. Someone who knows how to strive for success and to achieve it. He;s mingled with ordinary folk, and could probably hold his own as well in a pub in Sefton as in a high-class bar in Double Bay.
But that’s not enough. Remember, there was once a “Packer for PM” campaign too. Successful businessman, turned a big inheritance into a multi-billion dollar empire. Turnbull should know about Kerry’s faults, and why the campaign fizzled out.
Malcolm has a propensity to crash and burn, after reaching dizzying heights, like a brilliant skyrocket. There’s a lot of the “maverick” about him, the supreme opportunist. Balance this against the slow-and-steady Rudd, doing it by the numbers, invoking process in place of personality. That’s where I think maybe Turnbull is the right man at the wrong time. What we need now is a lot of planning, not brainstorming. We need someone who stands a good chance of making every post a winner, rather than going for broke and doubling up the bet each step of the way.
The Libs have a sense of panic in their heads that if they don’t get back this time, they’ll be in Opposition for years. Turnbull may give them hope that the dream of instant reinstatement to office has a chance. There’s no-one else to lead them, anyway, so they have to go with the flow. But that doesn’t mean the knives aren’t being kept sharp and at the ready for the first time he falters.
Just heard a couple of listener emails read out on ABC sydney 702… on the subject of Rudd’s trip.
The common question was, “So now it’s all over, what great crisis happened here that Rudd would have needed to be home to solve?”
Answer (from both): nothing.
It’s only the hot-heads that will hold onto the K-747 thing, I believe. Turns out the country was run quite well without the “control freak” nedding to tweak the dials and turnthe knobs personally. If this gets out, it might prove dangerous to the “active management” role the opposition claims is the only way to do it.
As each day passes, I am becoming more in agreement with Adam.
It is a total wast of time & emotional energy reading the pap that is now being dished up in the News Ltd rags.
After having read that pitiful rot from Shannahan this morning as well as a number of other News Ltd articles, I am convinced that the MSM are bent on a strategy of total self destruction.
Most of these articles seem to be written so as to provide an avenue for twisted right wing trolls to sprout their venom and Lib talking sheet points as widely as possible in the comments sections.
One can read the same comments in virtually every article and they have almost totally taken over on most ABC on-line sites.
The campaign being waged against Rudd and his Government is getting close to the level of hysteria. What’s it going to look like closer to the next election.
To keep a semblance of sanity I think it would be better for me to not read any of this pap altogether. I think I should just stick to the blogs and take up knitting.
It’s a pity that Fairfax don’t put out a national daily in competition with the Australian. From where I sit, it seems as though they are far more balances and insightful in their reporting than the News Ltd rags.
In comparing this artical in the Age with Shannahan’s dribble in the Oz, there is no comparison.
http://news.theage.com.au/world/rudd-has-fix-for-world-financial-crisis-20080926-4o96.html
In reading an article such as this it is clear that if Rudd can establish himself as a clear, logical thinker, with a credible standing on the world stage, that he is in a enviable position to be able to influence international events & policy not only for the betterment of the people he represents in this country, but internationally as well.
This sort of analysis is too far over the heads of the likes of Shannahan, Bolt, Milne, Albrechtson, Pies & company. A good way to describe them is nothing but Liberal trolls.
http://news.theage.com.au/world/rudd-has-fix-for-world-financial-crisis-20080926-4o96.html
Turrnbull is so out of touch in comparison with Rudd that it is almost unbelievable that the News Ltd hacks can sit back and spruke the pap that the Liberals & their supporters are repetitively sprouting through every avenue available.
This Kevin 747 nonsense that Rudd should remain home and twiddle some nonexistent “dials” or whatever to save us from catastrophe is just so unbelievable that even the rusted on LNP supporters must have their tongue in cheek when they sprout it.
The other thing that all this assumes is that the electorate at large are actually tuned in and paying attention to anything at the moment. I don’t think that’s the case. IMO when a new government is elected the electorate basically tunes out almost until the next election unless there are some major disasters that occur. The only ones who do tune in are the die-hard supporters of the previous government that are still sore about having lost the election that they are desperate to tear down the incoming one… but in reality noone is really listening to them.
There is also a certain jealousy among those News Ltd reporters. They will not admit that Rudd is intelligent capable and better than those opposite. They hate Rudd’s success and obvious and easy eclipsing of Howard. They are of course eternal supporters of the Liberal party but they have a little spite towards Rudd.
Like others I don’t read any of the murdoch papers though I might check to see what headlines they are running, if I can avoid it and only check the ABC to see what line they are trying to run for the Liberal party.
But I think it is instructive that despite a 18 month long continuous and intensive campaign against Rudd the ABC and Murdoch media have only just begun to make some inroads into his ratings and polls. And I think that is they had nothing to work with – the Liberal party being so incompotent and on the nose. Turnbull is there last great hope – and you can bet they will promote him long and hard.
How much more interesting our papers would be with a bit more ownership diversity. Anyway Rudd should just ignore them and get on with his program.
Hey Ruawake (611)
Thanks.
I agree with your second sentence; I just don’t think Brough is either indicative or important to the outcome. His major achievement thus far is consistently being on the losing side and as I’ve stated before, I cannot understand the fascination with him.
I’m not commenting on the movement of the dollar, just the news cycle, the quality of economic analysis and our general involvement in OUR supposed democracy.
I’m not quite sure just how low the standard of reporting can go at the Oz, but they are determined to find out. I think they are getting a bit ahead of themselves here though.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24404398-25658,00.html
And they finish with this.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the world, PM Kevin Rudd is meeting with influential leaders & financial heads and getting VIP treatment from the world media as someone who “does” have influence on the world scene. Unlike our pitiful lot.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7821689
http://www.innercitypress.com/un1bailout092308.html
That is of course another step in the promotion of Turnbull – get people to imagine him as being PM thus trying to legitimise him.
Shannahan seems to have a “Dr Jeckle & Mr Hyde” persona. It appears that he sometimes writes a reasonably balanced article for the front page to cater for the intelligentsia and fair thinking people who keep up to date with issues and writes a totally different type to appeal to the intellectually handicapped RWDB’s who can reinforce each others ignorance & prejudices in the comments section.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24405391-601,00.html
When compared to this absolute tosh.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24402636-7583,00.html
The next quetion will be that what would Turnbull do with the money if he got a Noble prize and, would he accept a nighthood from the Queen being a republican and all. And is he putting too much demand on himself donating so much blood to the red cross, and will the children in Ethiopa be able to cope if Turnbull is called away to be PM.
Knighthood
Thomas Paine, I think we should brace ourselves for a continual barrage of this type of rubbish.
The determination of the right wing MSM to bring Rudd & his Government down will know no bounds.
If, in the long run they are ultimately successful, they may not be quite so happy with the result.
It may well be as Kerry Packer said, “there is nothing there”!
What a pity they can’t sit back a bit and support Rudd in bringing the country up to the 21st century and set in train the policies badly needed to ensure the country’s ongoing prosperity and development.
Instead, they seem to want us to go backwards towards some wonderful nirvana that supposedly existed in the past.
I watched Kevs UN speech and was impressed by his statemanship and intelligence. I also had a look at Bush (dazed look as he read prepared speech) and the French pres (who squarked and waved his arms around a lot)
A year ago i never thought i’d say these words again, but God it’s good to be an Aussie and feel some pride again instead of shame.
I think “nighthood” is more appropriate.
saw this headline and thought the Rodent had got a new gig as B3. lol
‘John Howard appears on ‘Pajamas TV’
“Former Prime Minister John Howard has done few interviews in Australia since losing the election, but popped up this morning for an interview in an unlikely place – an online TV network called “Pajamas TV”.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/john-howard-appears-on-pajamas-tv/2008/09/26/1222217479871.html
He’s looking crook isn’t he?
No 738
If the MSM was supporting Rudd, they would be open to legitimate claims of pro-government bias.
lol It never stopped them in Howard’s day GP!
They were certainly guilty of that up till 24th November last year.
Hey, William, you should see if you can get on there too as a “popular Aussie blogger”.
First interview in New Yorke of Australian PM, Kevin Rudd.
“Hi, my name’s Kevin, I’m from Queensland, Australia and I’m here to help”!
What kind of PJs was Howard wearing? Shorty ones with dinosaurs on them?
Been out for a few hours on a trip to some customers and a consequent visit to the bank (depositing, thankfully) and was pleased to see that “it wasn’t just me” when reading Dennis’ Umpteenth Epistle To The Terminally Confused.
This whole K-747 thing has been so parochial, so small-minded as to almost defy belief. If we want to stay a small, insignificant little backwater, then staying at home to “do battle” in Question Time with a bunch of interjecting, points-of-order-raising sore losers is it.
I suppose, out there in suburbia somewhere, there will be someone who has swallowed this crap that only Coalition Prime ministers can meet world leaders and address the UN, or even offer some solutions to global crises, and that Labor PMs should be stay-at-homes, in their office at 9 sharp, into the House for some political pummelling, and back at their desk it’s cleared. I guess the odd angry punter in a mortgage-stressed household with a passel of kids and Granny in the back of the Tarago will be convinced that Rudd is just doing what he does for the sheer exilhiration of going “O-S” on a free holiday while they’re in petrol queues trying to save 5c on a Tuesday arvo. There may even be a small cadre slow thinkers believe that if Rudd had stuck solely to climate change and clean coal, in a week where the world teeters on the edge, centered in the city which he has travelled to, then that would be forgiveable, even reasonable, but to amend his itinerary is out of the question and a sign of weakness.
What Shanahan sees as Rudd on the “defensive” I see as explaining to the population just what he’s on about. when you have a go at them on their blogs, they reluctantly agree that THIS trip was necessary, but that its original purpose wasn’t. Somehow or other we’re supposed to digest that hair-splitting nuance and nod in unison.
Apart from the parochial nature (someone above accurately called it a “cringe”) of their whole angle of attack, the criticism of the trip is rooted in the alleged illegitimacy of the Rudd government. It’s a symptom of their belief that Rudd is not legitimately entitled to do anything that John Howard didn’t do (viz. the endless comparisons of overseas diaries we’ve had for days now). Further, he doesn’t seem to be entitled to add more emphasis to Foreign Affairs, especially in areas other than going to war alongside the US, than his predecessors. No, the agenda has been set: you’re either off visiting the troops, the Queen or Bush’s ranch, or you’re full of yourself and your own self-importance.
That’s what I haven’t liked about this whole charade (put upon us without the slightest iota of polling on the subject, just the hunches of a few News Ltd. hacks): Rudd has no business governing. He’ll only muck it up. Better to stay at home, mow the lawns, empty the mailbox and do a little damage as possible until the rightful owners come home and set up house again.
Wasn’t “Pajamas TV” that kooky right-wing neocon web site set up to counter the “liberal bias” of the MSM? Got lampooned years ago as a complete joke. If Howard is appearing on it then that’s sinking pretty low. Associating with those Pajamas fruit cakes is quite revealing of where he actually stands.
Morgan 57-43, Rudd PPM 55-30
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/4322/
It gets worse…
Just heard Shanahan’s vox report on The Australian’s web site. The first sentence says it all (and I quote, verbatim):
Next, he goes on about how in March (when it was planned) the original trip had been planned to revolve around climate change. But economic events have overshadowed it, says Dennis, and Rudd’s time overseas has been dominated by meetings with financial gurus and regulators instead. Indeed Rudd’s speech to the UN centered on ways of solving the financial crisis and ensuring that it didn’t happen again. He conceded this switch even before his speech began.
Dennis continued,
So there you have it. He wasted taxpayers’ money on his trip because its original purpose was overtaken by events (no consideration given to whether he might have done some good anyway). And even then, he’s so sensitive to the stinging barbs of the taxpayer, led by heroic journalists like Dennis, that he had to bolt in an undignified manner for the airport so he can come back home and be seen at the footy finals, plus some pointless community cabinet meeting
Better to have not gone at all. He should have stayed at home to personally argue with those great statesmen, Fielding and Xenophon, about medicare tax thresholds, pensioner stunts, condensate excise and other “domestic issues” like ? World Financial Crisis be damned. Storm in a teacup. A Labor Prime Minister’s place is in Canberra so Dennis and his fellow political savants can go him for indulging in petty local politics and small bananas issues (like medicare tax thresholds, pensioner stunts, condensate excise), even as the world economy melts down. There might even be an extra free kick in it for them if they could work in an accusation of economic incompetence and panic for cancelling his trip.
If anyone thought Rudd’s meeting with Murdoch might have lessened the pressure from his national rag, they were mistaken.
The narrowing!!!!!!!!!!!
Why bother reading Shanners BS articles anyway BB? The only people who do are those who aren’t going to change their vote one way or the other no matter what he says.
These new numbers at the left of each post are kinda wierd
Surprise surprise Morgan’s usual accompanying comment is a negative for Rudd…
Yes I’m sure he’s shaking in his shoes at 57-43 2PP
Only 574 electors surveyed by Morgan – not much of a sample.
The real reason Turnbull didn’t want Rudd to go overseas is that he’s terrified of Gillard, and with good reason as we saw at QT this week.
Yep, I don’t like them either
4% MOE
Well there is nothign to stop people from confronting these journalists personally face to face in their offices or in the street and ask for explanations face to face. I suspect it will be the only way they will realise they cant abuse their position. Just make sure you take a camera crew to record for youtube.
Would love to hear a secret recording of what they discuss in their offices and what phone calls they take from the Liberal party.
I guess Labor is zooming in on around 55/45.
New thread.