After giving Labor its worst poll result of the Rudd government era a month ago, ACNielsen has now returned to the field. This month’s survey has Labor’s lead up from 52-48 to 56-44, from primary votes of 46 per cent for Labor (up five) and 39 per cent for the Coalition (down three). Remarkably, both leaders’ approval ratings are up 10 points, Kevin Rudd’s to a personal best 71 per cent and Malcolm Turnbull’s to 55 per cent. However, Rudd has blown out to big lead on preferred leader, 64 per cent (up eight) to 26 per cent (down seven). Further detail on attitudes to the financial crisis from Michelle Grattan at The Age.
UPDATE: The weekly Essential Research survey has an unusually sharp two-point move in favour of Labor, who now lead 59-41 on two-party preferred. Kevin Rudd’s lead as preferred prime minister has also blown out to 55-20 from 45-25 a month ago. Interestingly, respondents are more confident the economy can withstand the financial crisis than they were a week ago. Also included are questions on the government stimulus package, the emissions trading scheme and more.
1,812 Comments
I think that previous poll was faulty or a rogue. It was well below the Newspoll and Morgan polls which came out around that time which were fairly consistent, although there was that small, temporary “Turnbull bounce”.
Also, I’m a bit surprised that this one is not a bit higher, similar to the Morgan, although the sample size is larger than the average outside of a campaign at 1400.
The previous poll has allowed for a very dramatic headline for The Age tonight though hasn’t it
Turnbull’s approval rating at 55% I would think has a little to do with the contrast between him and Nelson. Coalition voters think they have at last a viable candidate to support. And it has hurt in the least that the media has done all it can to give Turnbull lots of visibility and support.
I think Rudd has found himself a pretty good and nationally palatable front line team in Rudd, Gillard, Swan and Tanner. These guys are presenting a fairly good image in my opinion and are starting to become a part of the furniture as it were.
And there is a little irony in having an ‘international’ PM in this type of environment. The irony is the Murdoch media tried very hard to beat it into a negative for Rudd but in doing so highlighted Rudd’s international profile which, in this type of environment must be a great plus. People will be thankful that Rudd has a bunch of international relationships and may imagine them to be much greater than they are – thanks to the Murdoch/LNP hype.
It will be interesting to see what we hear of LNP sniping if these types of figures last for a few more months. It is not as though Turnbull has lots of friends.
I might put a few bob on Abbott to be Opposition leader at election time.
How will Sky Noos make this play out well for the Coalition?
The MSM seems totally preoccupied lately with “dramatic” headlines which in most cases, bares little resemblance to the substance of the article.
It’s the Narrowing! (Rudd taught me everything)
Probably infer that with the reasonably coverage given to Rudd in the past week, that it could reasonably be expected that the figures would have been more favourable to the Government.
Probably didn’t come up enough because the unemployed and single people and couples without children never got a chrissie present from uncle Kevin.
Rudd’s international profile could be a real plus for him at the moment and become a permanent positive feature of how people see him.
This less than scientific old ‘The Age’ poll demonstrates why it can be an advantage.
People see this crisis as an international event and thus the solutions to it are not simply domestic.
Tony Wright from The Age seems to agree with my comments at #1 & #2.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-shows-that-cometh-the-hour-cometh-the-man-20081019-53zz.html
Thats three consecutive polls the Morgan 57/43 F2F and Phone 57/43 and now 56/44.
Rudd has had a strong support for a long while and some of that was based on expectations. With this crisis and the Government’s actions so far some of that expectation has been met and a lot of that support now solidified into something tangible. This will help make his vote more resilient come election time you would think.
It is too late for the LNP to do anything about it. It started when Rudd was in NY and with his actions since.
The interesting thing for Rudd will be what happens from now on. People probably wont blame the government too much if the economy suffers some what, they are fully aware that it is an international thing and that Rudd was out there early doing stuff.
So Rudd needs to keep the international aspects of this crisis and its solutions front and center and tie domestic issues to the international scene when he can when it is plausible.
ltep, told you the 52-48 was a rogue poll. All of Rudd Labor’s polling has consistently been 55-45 or better, with only the very occasional rogue poll giving a lesser result, with the exception of some of the 2007 election campaign polls.
And just to add to the above post, at no other time has a federal party achieved that in polling history.
Thomas Paine @ 4
Your ‘part of the furniture’ is going to the heart of one of the reasons why the tories are going to find everything a bit more difficult from now on. Fear campaigns based around shapeless fears – terrorists, union thugs, can’t handle the economy, interest rates, have got no experience and so on, simply will not wash. Bottom line, the Government crew look, sound and act fairly ordinary, a bit earnest, a bit wonkish, but ordinary. This is the best antidote to the shapeless fears. In government they appear to be unable to frighten the chooks, even if they wanted to.
However, I believe that there is another consistent element in all the thinking and that is a propensity to volatility in the electorate. It may have a bit to do with gen y’s freedom to move, not sure. But the upshot is – and I am not statistical so have no idea whether or no I am whistling in the wind – the upshot is that the numbers can shift quickly.
I still think most Australians have not quite conttoned on to how serious the state of the real economy is overseas. Apparently polls are showing that lots of Australians are optimistic or are feeling positive about the economy. Crikey. Britain lost 146,000 jobs in July and August alone. I have seen figures that France will lose over 140,000 jobs in construction alone this year. The European governments have now put over $Au3600,000,000,000 on the table to try to save the banking system from collapse. They don’t have that sort of money so they will have to print it. In France that equates to $Au12,000 debt for every man woman in child. The per capita figure is greater for Britain. The bloody banks are still playing beggar they neighbour, with one of the British banks, awash with money given by the Government actually raising interest rates. They are foreclosing like crazy – sometimes for the sake of a couple of hundred quid. I have seen estimates that 2 million brits will have the good old ‘negative equity’ in their homes by the end of 2010. ‘Negative equity’ is like ‘negative growth’ – a spinmeister’s dream. You might as well be clear and say that they will be up shit creek without a paddle.
Clearly, there is going to be a significant reckoning in the real economy and it will catch up with Australia. The question is:’How patient will the electorate then be with Rudd?’ Because of the cognitive disconnect in Australian voters, I still think that today’s polling figures, practically speaking, have little predictive strength.
The reverse has happened to Gordon Brown. He had all the electoral appeal of an over-ripe kipper. He came up with an idea to save the banks. His stench left him and has washed over the Tories. Crazy stuff.
This is an outstanding poll result, just on 2 years since being made ALP Leader.
Lets not forget the ground work done and poll results by Beasley in 2006-7.
It seems to me that the World Governments are acting more decisively and in co-ordination, unlike what must have happened after the ‘29 crash. Which hopefully results in a less harmful World recession. Also we might see the economies of China and India still growing, albeit less than the last 10 years.
Labor will certainly not be disappointed with this poll result. I’ve always said Turnbull is a dud… but really they have noone else at the moment.
Itep
Turnbull did get a 55% approval as Opposition Leader. Maybe that’s where they want him to stay.
Compared to Nelson he seems competent, but he is too smug and really quite awful in the media… which is what counts.
*****Warning to Bushfire Bill*****
Bushfire, mate, whatever you do, don’t go anywhere near Glenn Milne in the OO this morning
Todays, really is something special :shakes head: (not providing a link, I’m not taking responsibility for anyone reading that)
Thanks for the tip, Spam.
I’ve already read Hartcher, who wrote an interesting jutaposition of words. I see what he means, but it looked funny when I read it:
so far so good. And then the next sentence was this:
As I said, I can see what he means, but the wishful thinking sticks out a mile.
Now to read Milne…
Spam Box, pmsl, i just came in to warn BB but you beat me to it, i read the first paragraph and gave it up from there, there was no reason to go any further, did you hear rainman laud the poisoned dwarf on telly yesterday after he was accused of verballing Rudd?
Two paragraphs into Milne and he’s already used “new paradigm”,,,
Strapping in now.
Hartcher is quite right – of course the economic crisis could destroy Rudd, if it’s still running in 2010 and the voters decide *then* that Rudd’s response has not been adequate. A lot of people are going to take a real economic hit over the next year, and the usual response when that happens is to blame the government. It will take political skills of a high order for Rudd to get re-elected in a declining economic climate. Rudd indeed has political skills of a high order, but that doesn’t by any means guarantee his re-election.
Ok, so Milne says Turnbull forsaw it all, months ago, and gave a precise prescription for combatting the “GFC. That’s the global financial crisis, in case you missed it.” Rudd went further than Rainmaker on the deposit guarantee and the cash handout – made with “our” money (to ourselves, which would seem logical, but I quibble) – just to spite Turnbull, in a “venal” way. And now bankers are pleading with Turnbull (in private, of course… they don’t want to miss the gravy train that’s 100% guaranteed their deposits and made them the safest banks in the world, with the highest credit ratings) to keep his mouth shut in case Rudd does something else stupid, like save our economy, or minimize unemployment.
I guess the ANZ and NAB (who over the weekend have reduced their interest rates voluntarily as a direct and attributed result of the guarantee) were lying. Or perhaps they’re not so happy that Rudd helped out their non-bank competition? Who’d know? I can’t begin to conceive how thinking patterns organise themselves at the Big End Of Town. Lucky we have TPD to guide us through it all: it was Turnbull who saved Australia.
Except he didn’t. At the time he made his selectively quoted statements, he was languishing as Shadow Treasurer, outputting thought bubbles like a five year old with a dish full of soapy water. It says something that the man who Glen reckons knew it all, the Rainmaker himself, was in no position to influence events in any way because the right wing droids in the party of which he is a member (Nick Minchin, Tony Abbott… this means you) were too busy whiteanting him (and his leader) in favour of turning towards the sun of the perennial loser of Australian politics: the Greatest Prime Minister We Never Had, Peter Costello. Why install someone who’s got a bit of a clue when you have the Messiah himself on hand?
Instead of making something out of Turnbull’s experience in the byzantine ways of high finance, the dummies of the Liberal Party (and their urgers and spruikers in the media… TPD in particular) spent their time examining the political droppings of a congenital coward too scared of failure to contemplate the top job and too arrogant to admit it. We had Cozzie on the radio the other day saying how much he missed the cut and thrust, and how desperately he wished he was in charge in this crisis. Well, if he’s such a nation-saving savant, and knew what was about to happen, why didn’t he step up to the plate on November 25th, 2007? One word: gutless. Another word: clueless. Oh alright, a third word: Turnbull.
Costello and the rest of the Old Guard hate Turnbull’s guts. They’d rather trash their own party and what was left of its credibility than elevate Truffles to somewhere where he might be able to do some good for them. Glenn Milne, sycophantic dweeb that he is, is now trying to latch onto the Rainmaker’s caravan (”Come one! Come all! Come see the Poison Dwarf crawl three feet up the Rainmaker’s arse!”). But at the heart of the problem is this: Turnbull is the wrong man, in the wrong party, at the wrong time. No amount of post facto bolstering by the freakshow performers at News Ltd. can change that fact. As today’s Neilsen poll demonstrates, the voters aren’t approving of an Opposition Leader who said something in February. They’re approving of a Prime Minister who’s doing something in October.
They don’t care that Telstra can’t issue paper. They hate Telstra. They get enough paper every month from Telstra to sink a ship anyway. BHP can look after itself. It’s only the biggest mining company in the world. It’s their deposits and their jobs that the voters are interested in. Their money is held in places called “banks” and their jobs are dependent, at the most fundamental level, on banks being able to trade on a daily basis, while charging them interest on their mortgages at the lowest possible level. That’s your paradigm, Glen, only it’s not a new one.
Malcolm’s biggest problem at the moment is that he is too easily caricatured into “Moneybags”, with top hat and tails.
Moneybags clearly comes from the top end of town, the very same top end of town that is so much on the nose(dive).
Turnbull can’t hide behind Liberal Party and Poison Gnome sponsored spin for long.
Tony Abbott has better people skills – along with a better chance at leading the Libs at the next election – than aloof Moneybags, who would much rather be in his counting house counting his money than dealing with Joe Punter and an “overblown” economic crisis.
Yes, exactly. Not sure that TPD’s little anecdote about the senior banker at a private dinner telling Rainmaker to ease off criticising the government was all that wise.
If TPD got it from the banker, it’s a bad look for the bankers. They come across as killing the goose that laid the golden egg for them.
If TPD got it from Turnbull, apart form the obvious negative ramifications of a story about how Rainmaker privately dines with senior bankers just about the most despied species of parasite in today’s society), there’s also the aspect to it that Milne gets his predictions so wrong, so often, Truffles would be a fool to think he’ll get any joy out him. Remember, the last person who thought Milne might be useful was Peter Costello.
Talk about hitting the nail on the head. Mr Rudd talking tough about limiting the salaries of greedy banking types. Meanwhile alluding to the folly of unrestrained market capitalist fundamentalism.
Wonder what Opposition Leader (in a former life) and political party have their ears burning right about now?
With all due respect Fagin, Malcom’s biggest problem is that he’s an idiot.
Unfortunately for the general public, the media built him up as this political giant who was created for the role of PM and would bring the fight to the ‘one-term’ Labor government. Now we all know that’s not the case, but all the sycophantic journo’s are unlikely to say “Woops, we got it wrong!”.
The media has been somewhat refreshing the last two days. Excluding the regular Liberal Party stooges in their columns, we’ve barely heard a peep out of the Opposition. The way things should be, imo. We’re two years out from an election. Let the Government govern. Who gives a toss if Julie Bishop is ‘considering’ tax cuts at least 3 years away.
Julie who?? Oh, you mean the WorkChoices lady. Ah, no.
I don’t believe the government will be held responsible for this mess, It isn’t being held responsible now, as the polls show and if Rudd keeps on trying to do all that is possible he won’t be held responsible in the future either. This is not the 1930’s and Rudd is not Scullin.
Hi all, long time no see (speak? write?) – my first time on WB’s shiny new site.
It certainly seems that Kev is having an excellent crisis, with the right balance of the appearance of action and actual action. I don’t buy for a minute that the crisis will impact on the government’s fortunes, so long as they keep appearing that they are on top of things. (As an aside, comparisons with the Scullin Government are flawed, as are most excursions by the MSM into history; Scullin lost not because of the Depression per se, but that the government split to both the Left (the Beazley faction) and the Right (Lyons and chums). It was disunity that did them in more than anything else, something that won’t be an issue for the Rudd government).
AS for Truffles, I think he has performed OK, but this is not a great time to be an Opposition Leader – we have a new government (still broadly popular) ably handling its first real external crisis. In those circumstances, there’s not usually much an OL can do apart from save the furniture (see Tampa & 9/11 – or 11/9 as we say in English).
On another (but related) matter, I think the chances of a Double Dissolution next year are receding, now that the Senate looks like it is starting to behave itself – an early election in the current climate will look too much like opportunism.
@32 – and Labor is far more structured and in-line now than it was back then, with Labor splitting in to three parties over how to handle the economic crisis.
The crisis has only just begun folks, so don’t get too carried away. Scullin also got lots of praise in the first year or so for his earnest but futile efforts to get Australian out of the Depression. It wasn’t until late in 1930 that things began to fall apart. The voters are not blaming Rudd *now*, but who knows what mood they will be in by 2010, after two years of real economic pain?
While the Global Recession could wreck the Rudd Government alot will depend on how he handles it and thus far the Government has managed the situation well.
Some of the measures while questionable will have the effect of appearing to do something, someone mentioned the trip to NY last month, since then the Government has moved on several fronts.
The guanteening bank deposits, while the cynic in me wonders why we need that when the Banks are said to have strong balance sheets with minimal exposure to Sub-prime.
The $10.4B mini-budget while very political, aimed at the two big issues that have bugged the Government all year, home affordability and Pensioners both receiving a large handout.
Interesting, considering property prices are moving down, I have noticed in the Higgins, Kooyong and Melbourne Ports areas a clear dropping in property prices.
I’m surprised the Government choose to ignore the Unemployed in the mini-budget.
There is one thing to remember when talking about a recession wrecking the Government, its the policy response that matters, in the 1930s & 1890s Governments took the approach that inorder to deal with economic touch times you needed to cut spending and government wages and pensions this in turn added to the economic problem, while I am cynical about some of the measures of the Government, if they can pull the country though 2009 without a recession then by default they deserve to be returned.
The Opposition have started to move in the right direction, Malcolm looks more like a leader and has push the Government on several fronts but in saying that he has made several errors like criticising Rudds trip to New York.
There is one big problem for Malcolm, in normal times you would expect it too be a strength, but Malcolm is a Banker and this crisis is caused by Bankers therefore Malcolm needs to ensure he is on message for the Government can as I suspect they will home in on the fact that its people like Malcolm that have caused the problem.
Of Course that would be a dangerous approach for the Government to take and I suspect Rudd will do as he did against Howard and just focus on the issues, in many ways this issue is too Rudd what 9/11 became to Howard, it allows him to show his Fiscal Conservative nature and therefore own the debate.
We do indeed live in Interesting times.
The electorate has been conditioned over 11 years to perceive people on unemployment benefits as “unworthy’s”, unwilling to work and undeserving of community support. (ie Single mothers esp.)
With the economy still facing shortages in a number of critical areas as far as workforce participation goes, it would be foolish of Rudd to offer a handout to that demographic and make them far less inclined to seek employment opportunities.
The Lib sycophants in the MSM would crucify him especially as it doesn’t seem to be noted that unemployed with children still qualify for some of the handouts.
Interesting…
Paul Sheehan, a big spruiker for the Howard government in its time, and abig critic of Labor, quotes a foreign economic commentator favourably:
That’s a neat and pecise a summary of the mistakes of Howard that I’ve seen in a long while. After Keating’s reforms, Howard blew it. Except Paul doesn’t acknowledge the clear meaning of the quotation.
Sheehan uses a curiously passive voice in describing Australia’s fiscal and economic travails, including the ones a’comin’:
Gee, Paul, who was in charge in those days? They must have been a very irresponsible government!
Considering how Sheehan wrote loud and long over many articles (not a passive voice to be seen) that firm hands were on the tiller (in the shapes of Howard and Costello), it’s interesting to see his choice of words: “… did it fail to sufficiently embark on a program of nation-building during the resources boom?” Oh, I see, Australia failed. Nothing to do with the economic gurus and geniuses, the superb economic managers, that were running it at the time and taking all the credit for house prices never being higher. It was Australia that failed itself.
So says Paul Sheehan. The only government that gets a serve by name is the Rudd government, by risking an increase in the current account deficit via its $10.4 billion handout. As for the hundreds of billions that Howard and The Messiah pi$$ed up against the wall, that wasn’t Paul’s heros who did it. That was all of us.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/paul-sheehan/greed-a-deadly-sin-for-the-economy/2008/10/19/1224351052160.html
The electorate appears to be convinced he is doing something right. I wonder if over time Rudd can overtake Hawkey.
[Mr Rudd’s disapproval rating has fallen 11 points to 20 per cent.}
This is a definate indication that people are following what is happening and have given Rudd a “tick of approval” for his package and the fairly prompt action taken to implement it.
Rudd still has quite a number of tricks up his sleeve at the moment and the likes of Turnbull and his supporters in the MSM are well aware of that fact, hence the levels of frustration being in evidence at present.
There are really “NO” credible avenues of attack available for the foreseeable future and they would be best served by sitting back and waiting to see how events unfold for the time being. It may well be that errors in strategy & implementation do occur and then would be a more opportune time to dive in and pick up a few brownie points.
GB 32
Spot on. In the 1930s when the depression hit, governments didn’t know what to do so they did nothing – and were severely punished by the voters.
The situation today couldn’t be more different. The Rudd government has moved quickly to control the situation with a massive increase in spending and the polls are already showing a very positive response from the electorate.
An added bonus is that because of this crisis the opposition is being made to look totally irrelevant and their constant attacks on Rudd (can’t make decisions, travels overseas too much etc etc) are being exposed as the petty nonsense they have always been. Strap yourself in ALP supporters for a long occupation of the lodge.
Kev is toying with the Libs, for the last few days one after another (Bishop, Allbull Abbott & Robb to name a few) have been on TV or radio pushing the line that the next budget will be in deficit,if it isn’t allready! after Rudds reckless spending.
So what does Kev do, gives them enough rope then last night calmly says, you know i’m so glad we put that $20bill away because now we can use it for this stimulus package and still have a good bottom line, a decent surplus,
I like his style.
All ords up 106 Aussie $69.65
Once again I say this is not the 1930’s and Rudd is not Scullin. Looking back 90 years to predict the future in politcs is like looking back to the T – model Ford to predict what Fords will be like in 2 years time. No comparison and no relevance.
41 – Vera, and these are the same people who were encouraging Rudd to spend while at the same time trying to stop him from building on the surplus. They are all over the shop.
Yes lets ignore the Unemployed for they are undeserving opps what about those who are fired by Employers who are narrow minded salfash arrogant bastards or what about those who are made Unemployed due to the currant Economic condictions.
There is one other big different between now and the 1890s and 1930s, the Union movement is a more mature organisdation than it was back then therefore we wont be hit but unnecessary national strikes
gary 43, all over the shop is right , now Robb has got the nerve to say he’s worried about regional rorts! (last paragraph)
“The Prime Minister will bankroll local councils to deliver small projects with short lead times to keep the economy moving and shield communities from job losses and reduced growth that will stem from the crash of global capital and stock markets.
The new regional and local community infrastructure fund will replace the Howard government’s controversial Regional Partnerships program.
It was to have been created in next year’s federal budget. But sources told The Australian yesterday it would be announced earlier, possibly at a meeting of the nation’s 565 mayors in Canberra on November 18″
‘Andrew Robb warned that money in both funds could be used to prop up marginal Labor electorates and that the public had a right to expect transparency in decision-making. ‘
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24521422-601,00.html
Gary Bruce makes a good point. Going back to the 1930s for indications of future electoral trends is somewhat fraught. Back then global communications were in their infancy. These days people have a better understanding of how global conditions embroil Australia. People may also have grasped that, despite their best efforts, Australian governments are actually little more than benevolent spectators to what goes on.
For a more contemporary look at recessions and changes of government, the last recession (under PM Keating) saw no change. The recession before that, PM Fraser, the coalition was voted out. Recessions do not always mean governments are removed.
Neither is the corollary rule set in stone that governments are re-elected in time of prosperity. Take Howard’s defeat last year for instance.
It’s a pity that Channel 7 didn’t show the full program “Minding Your Money: An Audience with the Prime Minister” last night.
I found it to be quite enjoyable and was impressed by the way Rudd handled himself and the audience interaction was one of the best I have seen. The picture accompanying this article in the smh says it all really.
sorry!
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudd-finds-himself-the-star-turn-in-money-program/2008/10/19/1224351057017.html
OK I take it all back, my critisism of ABC. With a headline like this how could i not LOl
“Labor sinks hooks into ‘barramundi’ Turnbull”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/20/2395789.htm?section=australia
‘barramundi’ Turnbull
Is that any relation to the barracuda palin lol ?
Governments getting voted out because of a Recession!
I think it has more to do with how the Government responses for example Malcolm Frazier was beaten by a better campaigner in Hawke.
Keating was broken by the Recession but survived 1993 due to the opposition.
And in both the 1890s and 1930s the respond was extremely different to the response of the Rudd Government and something which makes a real different today is Globel communications.
Also the situation isn’t as bad as the 1930s due in part to the reponse of the U.S. Federal Reserve, for had they allowed Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae and AIG to fall over the situation would be very different.
In many ways the times suit Rudd
Actually backing Local Government makes a lot of sense! the Investiment again sends a message that the Government is acting and for the Liberal Party to complain actually reduces their policy options clearly the Liberals are not looking ahead but living in the moment and if they keep it up and the government maintains a surphus then the Liberals would have snookered themselves.
@51
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/jacktheinsider/index.php/theaustralian/comments/desperate_times_call_for_measured_politics
IN THE shadows of the 1983 election campaign, a desperate Malcolm Fraser almost caused a run on the banks with a wild and desperate claim that people’s savings would not be safe under a Hawke Labor government.
Many people think that Bob Hawke was a shoo-in to become Australia’s prime minister, the moment he became Labor leader – coincidentally the day the election was called on February 3, 1983. The reality is Hawke had to run a solid campaign and convince the waverers that he was the man for the job.
On February 22, Hawke received a boost to his chances when a clearly rattled Fraser made his biggest bungle.
During a lunchtime rally in Melbourne, Fraser clambered to his feet and grabbed a microphone and implied that people’s savings with the banks could be under attack, should voters be silly enough to vote Labor.
“Under Labor it’d be safer under your bed than it would be in the banks. They would be robbing the savings of people to pay for their mad and extravagant promises.”
It was crazy, reckless stuff. Bugger the national interest. Fraser showed he was willing to cause a run on the banks to score a few votes.
Anxious bankers contacted the then-treasurer Howard seeking an explanation. The banks had been beset with calls from worried depositors, eager to close their accounts if there was a kernel of truth. Howard called Fraser’s office and got through to one of Fraser’s advisers. The normally measured man was deeply angry “What the f*** is this money under the bed line?”
While Fraser merrily traversed the country making the same silly claim, his party backed away. Many of Fraser’s colleagues openly criticised him. Others, like Howard, maintained a pretence of unity but none endorsed Fraser’s intemperate and downright stupid remarks.
It became obvious to all that Fraser was an isolated and somewhat spooky figure who would do whatever it took to win the election.
It didn’t work, of course. Hawke’s lead as preferred prime minister went through the roof from that day forth and he led the Labor Party to a landslide win two weeks later.
And then there was Labor’s response. “You can’t stick your money under the bed, ‘cos that’s where the Reds are”.
Hahahahaha, one of my all time favourite lines
It was actually Hawke’s personal response, delivered off-the-cuff at a press conference. I can remember tthe occasion like it was yesterday. The voters weren’t worried about Fraser causing a run on the banks. They were laughing out loud along with Hawke. Fraser’s pomposity had been well and truly pricked by a simple one-liner. Brilliant.
Ahhhhhh – The narrowing!!!
What narrowing?
Precisely
Bushfire Bill, delivered off the cuff but not thought of on the spot. If memory serves me right, thought of by Richard Farmer and wonderfully delivered by Hawke.
Mumble on the ABC. Rudd still on honeymoon.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/20/2396094.htm?section=justin
Antony Green… you’ve shot down so many of my unscientific but wishful thoughts. Count this as another one! Hawkey didn’t think it up all by himself? I’m devastated.
On Mumble… he really does need to allow comments, or figure out a way to facilitate them. He’s been out of touch for a long while, now.
If Labor do not win the next election it will not be their fault. Rudd has shown he is ahead of the game and not scared to act. He has access to as many experts and experience he wants and is also politically astute.
And people more than ever before in our history understand this global economic crisis if it becomes a recession here was caused by international events.
Rudd you can be sure will do all the proper things to keep the economy in the best order it can be in which, will probably mean keeping the economy ticking over as best we can until the international economy picks up. Rudd may need every bit of his international skills to pulls some little rabbits from the hat.
But in my view there still is the $390 billion wasted by the Howard government that needs a reckoning.
There surely has to be some amount of the fed ALP’s current support that is soft enough to fall away if and when this downturn starts to bite people in the street. The problem for the Fibs is that even then, they are so far behind its not going to do them a lot of good in terms of winning an election.
Interesting that the libs “narrative” has always been based on better economic management. That is currently looking full of holes and sinking and if we wind up in better shape than other western economies in a years time then it is sunk without a trace as well. They are now running the line that it is all because THEY built previous surpluses, but a drovers B dog could have done that during the boom. And during that time they screwed a lot of people over with WorkChoices.
They really need for the ALP to stuff up badly which at the moment isn’t happening. I mean the libs are being critical around the edges, but can they say that they would have done any different, in time to actually matter??
I think they will spend a lot of time over the next couple of years speaking for the benefit of their rusted ons, and they aren’t going get back in power that way.
Petrol prices set to tumble by 10%. Another Rudd election ‘promise’ being fulfilled? Of course it isn’t, but it is good news for Rudd all the same, as are falling interest rates.
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24524114-462,00.html
@65
Since when did Rudd promise to reduce petrol prices? He specifically stated he would put downward pressures on the cost of living, including things like petrol. He was even asked during the election campaign, can you make a guarantee that prices will reduce under your government? And how did Rudd reply? No we cannot.
They never promised lower prices. That’s just a Liberal lie perpetrated to make it look as though Labor are like the Liberals when it comes to breaking election promises.
I know, I was being facetous, hence my use of quotes around ‘promise’
“Meltdown wipes $780m off Future Fund in September quarter”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24523994-601,00.html
Except it did not. Future Fund $63 billion – loss = 0.2% I Make that $126 million how did the Australian get $780 million?
Or is Ms Maiden extroplating 10 year rolling averages over 3 months? Bizarre.
I decided sometime ago that Samantha Maiden takes a lot of drugs before sitting down to write an article.
Will that get me sued for libel?
If the Future Fund did not have those billions of Telstra shares it would have made a profit.
Essential Research has Labor up from 57-43 to 59-41.
William,
This is just too much to take. However like an addict – give me more.
More narrowing. lol
Rudd’s up 5% to 55% vs. Malcolm down 5% to 20% on PPM.
Also, more than twice as many trust Rudd to handle the crisis than Turnbull.
Rudd should have a party tonight.
I agree.
It’s not hard to get used to such figures. I like this part in TPD’s article which when you look at it and compare it with the reality of the situation, it more than makes up for the lack of decent humour these days on TV.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24520361-7583,00.html
Yeah, I would have to say that at this juncture, Rudd must be absolutely terrified of Turnbull with his worldly experience, running way ahead of the Government in putting forward solutions to the nation’s problems.
The reality of the situation is that TPD and his fellow Lib supporters in the MSM are scrambling to find “any” avenue that they can put forward to make the Libs relevant and appear as the “government in exile” that the Coalition and its supporters believe that it is. They keep forgetting about November 24, 2007. The people out in the community haven’t though, and they certainly do not think that they have been “hoodwinked” or made a mistake in judgement.
No he should be working his bum off, as he usually does. It was day off yesterday, walking with Joey and Swanee going to the ARIAs.
Back to work boys and girls.
TPD certainly doesn’t let little things like the facts or truth get in the way of a good narrative attempting to belittle the Government and put his new bestest friend Malcolm up in lights.
Errr, I can’t remember Rudd or anyone else in the Government arguing for an increase in interest rates!
Errr, I thought that it was Howard who was dragged kicking and screaming into the Climate Change and emissions debate.
Errr, help me out someone? I can’t seem to remember this either and this quote of Turnbull’s from the Insiders program is just ridiculous nonsense and should be called so by any self respecting economist.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24520361-7583,00.html
I just watched channel 7 news and guess what poll numbers Mark Riley only concentrated on? He finished the segment with “Our politicians are more popular than ever.”
I suggest a Pollbludger chook raffle to raise money for a new, independent media channel with only a slight Labor bias.
Suck on this Truffles & Co! (From Essential Research)
Libs lost in the desperate search for relevance i think. Maybe theres a survival movie screen-play in this somewhere?? Will this lost tribe called the Fiberals descend into cannibalism simply to get noticed??
________________________________________________________________________
Trust to Handle the Economy
Q. Who do you trust more to handle the economy during the financial crisis?
Kevin Rudd and the Labor Party 52%
Malcolm Turnbull and the Liberal Party 24%
Don’t know 25%
A majority of respondents said they trust Kevin Rudd and the Labor Party more than Malcolm Turnbull and the Liberals to handle the economy during the financial
crisis.
_______________________________________________________________________
Sigh, SBS didn’t report the PPM figures either. You know, the ones that after the 2PP actually mean something?
Well they often mean something… not always. Keating was preferred over Howard in ‘96 and Carpenter preferred over Barnett.
But Howard and Barnett weren’t languishing in the 20’s, nor actually on 20.
Gary Bruce @ 80
I have no idea. I don’t know Mark Riley.
We’ve got the second most popular PM in history (in polling history, that is) on the back of the second longest-serving PM in history.
Just playing around with a hypothesis here. Could the longevity of a government influence the popularity of its successor? As in, people are just so relieved to finally be rid of Howard that his replacement’s (Rudd’s) popularity is guaranteed (up to a point) simply because Howard had been there so long and thus more than outstayed his welcome. .. Sort of like an exaggerated honeymoon.
Perhaps it’s just me, projecting my own feelings onto the wider electorate.
Cuppa, hypothesis doesn’t explain the #1 most popular PM (Hawke) or #3 (Howard).
Oz, Howard did displace a 13-year old Labor government, which is a well-aged regime by any standards. Just wondering whether the length of Labor’s tenure helped to account for Howie’s early popularity.
Hawke, that’s a different case, maybe. He replaced Fraser who came to office in controversial circumstances.
This isn’t related to anything but I thought it was a clever line. From an Crikey article by Bernard Keane:
“Maybe the ALP has engaged in a long-term plot to so thoroughly trash the reputation of the second tier of government that Australians vote to get rid of it.”
Milne is pointless. He is no doubt well aware that he is pumping out sewerage but it is the type of sewerage the papers want. I am worried for him though as he is accumulating sewerage at such a rate as to be in danger of drowning in it.
Likewise ‘The Insiders’ are well aware they are producing a Liberal Party support hour though they might say otherwise it really is beyond obvious. I let them enjoy their Sao in peace now days and stay away from that program as I do the OO.
The sad thing is really is the public is being totally misinformed on just about everything. Hard to find any straight up honest reporting and also straight up honest analysis without a partisan twist. Much of the media is simply on a binge of Liberal party supporting. It is sad day when The Age turns out to be the more honest and straight forward of the newspapers.
If I were Labor I would be expanding their web site into a full song and dance affair with videos galore, news reports, entertainment and so on aka Huffington Post (but better set out please). Let people get their news ‘bytes’ straight from them.
Cuppa, I may be wrong but I think Howard’s approval rating was 5 years into his job.
Cuppa, your hypothesis might work if Rudd had decided after being elected that all the main work had now been done and just laid back in Costello’s hammock, now it was no longer needed. ( He can now have a kip up in the stands as a back bencher)
Instead, we have Kevin 24/7 and no sign of slowing down. Not that that is a bad thing considering the situation the country is now in as a result of the global financial crisis.
TP, going to have to dispute your claim that Milne is pumping out sewerage. He is in fact pumping out sewage.
Won’t dispute that.
Kerry O’Brien just repeated the “$780 million” Future Fund loss claim. Someone email Mediawatch about this crap, maybe they’ll follow it up.
Mediawatch touching something political? Not since 2006!
BB @ # 38
Hans Redeker who is quoted with glee in sheehans nonsense, is a regular on CNBC Asia & Europe and for the last eight years that I remember he has had a hardon with being critical to the point of sneering in his native stereotype germanic manner about Australia – the economy the AUD whatever.
Whenever he gets a slight opportunity he lays in the jack boots in a manner not unlike Piers. I don’t know why but there is an extreme dislike of anything Australian by redeker – it stands out so much.
I was not surprised to see sheehan run with redekers tripe.
Scorpio #93,
I’d put Costello down as one of the more irresponsible treasurers. It’s easy to sway nonchalantly in the hammock, flogging off national assets and giving out the tax cuts. Doesn’t take much insight or foresight to do that.
The more prudent course would have been to invest more on infrastructure while the loot was rolling in. Still with some left over to leave an even bigger surplus for when times inevitably got tough.
But that would have been more strenuous, and not so politically gratifying. He (Howard too) put political expedience ahead of responsible budgeting for the future. It is not much better than negligence, when viewed that way.
Fortunately we’ve got a 24/7 crew at last, to catch up on everything, as opposed to the Rip Van Winkle Liberals.
I guess we have seen 55/45 type polls for so long now we take them as being the norm.
I was thinking they would have narrowed a bit by now and can only suggest the reason they haven’t moved much is a LNP credibility problem. One thing the MSM and Liberals have failed to learn is that continually attacking Rudd over everything and anything has limited effect and will have limited effect whilst the alternative has little credibility.
So you would think the solution for the LNP is build their own credibility or that of Homer Turnbull. The MSM is trying their hardest to help him in every way but maybe Turnbull simply has a low terminal velocity. Maybe because he has to travel within a thick acrid medium, the LNP right-wing.
86 Thomas Paine – you’re lucky. When he has a good thing to say about Rudd and Labor I’ll let you know but don’t hold your breath.
I guess that means Rudd is doing better facing his many “tests” than the Aussies are doing in India at the mo.
(Course Ponting doesn’t have Turnbull lending a hand and telling him what to do like Rudd does)
So was it close? Nope try 52-24.
I’m not pseph enough to know how good Essential Research is, but them numbers be hard to argue against.
Just watching Senate Estimates (why I don’t know!). Minchin is having a go at Conroy for describing the appointment process of the ABC Board as Howard’s Christmas Card list. Says he should withdraw the comment as casting aspertions on the fine members of the Board. (and the Board is a fine one, which Conroy should be very proud of).
Minchin, no doubt, still seething from being demoted, is trying to make mountains of of hills of beans…
Gotta be up early in the morning, and for a few mornings after: showered, shaved (and the rest) by 7am, so I’ll say my bit tonight
Did I hear that Rainmaker was out today (or yesterday) saying Rudd should be thinking of small business and their pain rather than sucking up to the Big End Of Town, i.e. the Banks?
So what was that master political adviser, Glenn Milne, doing writing up a private dinner (only last Saturday night) between Rainmaker and “senior banking executives”, where they pleaded with Mal not to come up with any more bright ideas in case Rudd upped them and really started to do some damage? Just asking, that’s all.
While I’m asking, why would anyone, as Opposition Leader, put his faith in TPD? A man who can be trusted to eff it up every time (cf. Costello).
But that’s not my main point…
Has anyone seen El Cid? The 1961 movie produced by Samuel Bronston, directed by Anthony Mann, starring Charlie Heston and Sophia Loren? I have a confession to make: I saw El Cid as a boy, in its first release at the Forum cinema in Sydney’s Haymarket. And yes, it was in 1961. Christ, I’m feeling my age….
Anyway, the story was about a Spanish Christian hero, El Cid (translated as “The Lord” from the Spanish/Arabic), whose real name was Rodrigo (or Ruy) Díaz de Vivar. This hero of Spanish history helped fight off the Moors in the 11th century. It’s a long story and don’t worry, I’m not going to give a blow-by-blow here and now.
It’s the ending I’m interested in.
I don’t know how faithful the movie was to actual history, but the last scene involved a dead El Cid (killed by a lucky arrow from a Moorish bowman), propped up in the saddle with a stick through his chain mail and sent out on a horse as if he was still alive. Suitably disappointed, the Moors (seeing a live version of someone they had been assured was dead) turned tail and melted into the background. Cue Sophia’s tears and lots of inspirational music as we fade to black + end credits. The rest is, as they say, history. El Cid was the man who saved Spain and, ultimately, Christendom. Well, that’s the spin.
So I was listening to Michael Brissendon describe Kevin Rudd – in typical plonking, cynical, Brissendenish terms – tonight on The 7.30 Report as “Mr. 71%”. I was disappointed not to hear Michael describe Malcolm Turnbull as “Mr. 24%” (or whatever the latest, fabulous poll rating for the Rainmaker happens to be). And it struck me that, despite not being in any way worthy of it, Turnbull is being propped up, with a stick up his arse, El Cid-like, as a dead, but hopefully realistic enough threat, as in the movie of the aforementioned name.
The Libs are tanking. Their (much vaunted) “Superior Economic Managers” brand is in the dunny. Rudd is supreme in all aspects of the polls. The World moves on. Their Leader (the latest one, that is) is so far behind Rudd as PPM that even a country “Co-eee” couldn’t raise him. Yet, somehow, the ABC is giving them equal treatment… some might say more than equal treatment. Today’s radio news bulletins were full of condescending trivia about how the Coalition was “demanding” Rudd come clean on… well, something-or-other.
I guess my question to the Bludgers is: is Malcolm Turnbull, Rainmaker extraordinaire, the new El Cid? Propped up in the saddle to provide the suggestion of opposition to the Ruddernaught? And can we expect Christendom to be saved anytime soon?
I must admit, all this has got me confused.
Er … 55%, actually.
On that note – Rudd and Swan are attending a conference of small business owners this Friday.
Snap, snap and snap.
Three guesses who will take credit for ‘forcing’ the government to do it…
Grog, I find it amusing that Turnbull’s ‘payback’ to Minchin was to slot him into a portfolio he clearly knows nothing about. Minchin has previously admitted to not even knowing how to turn a computer on.
Well he was Minister for Finance for a decade and he obviously knew nothing about fiscal responsibility, so he’ll be right at home then.
Cuppa @ 89 -
Oz, Howard did displace a 13-year old Labor government, which is a well-aged regime by any standards. Just wondering whether the length of Labor’s tenure helped to account for Howie’s early popularity.
Howard wasn’t all that popular early on. Don’t have the figures, but both he and his government had a very ordinary first year. It took them a good 18 months to begin hitting their straps. Even then the LNP only got 49% of the TPP vote at the 1998 election. Had the large swing to Labor been just a touch more uniform Beazley would have been in the Lodge.
Nor was Howard particularly popular during his second term. Polling had Labor ahead for much of that term, but Howard was able to peak in the shadows of the November 2001 poll thanks to Tampa and bin Laden.
Turnbull and Milne would make a good pair. Thinking of the bank executives statement that he felt a little dirty after having dealings with Turnbull, like you might feel after reading Milne.
Correct. If you can get hold of some of the graphs of Howard’s Newspoll numbers since he took office, they look like a saw blade. Steady decline after each election down to defeat-level numbers before a sharp increase around election time as he scrabled to find a wedge or goodies for the electorate, then back down again.
Must admit William, you’re pedantic.
OK, so Brissenden called Rudd “Mr. 71%” and I said he might have called Turnbull “Mr. 24%”.
The figures – for PPM – were actually 61% and 26% respectively.
I got my PPM and “Doing a good job” numbers arse about. It’s either 71% v. 55% or 61% v. 26%… “Good Job” or “PPM” respectively.
What’s the real difference? It’s still a country mile. And Brissenden still should have adverted to that fact. Instead he makes like Turnbull is a serious challenger, with serious cred. Brissenden’s a professional cynic, a hopeless case, terrified by a ghost that doesn’t exist… and not very good at any of his personnas. Been that way for a long time, stenopgraphing press releases, toeing the line and spouting platitudes for years. You should hear him on ABC radio in the mornings, just after 9am… useless! Repeats his lines and then moves onto the next station. When it comes to serious facts (like the date of the Costello dinner) he stuffs up. It’s very easy to be a nark. But apart from that, I honestly don’t know how he keeps his job.
The ABC is pissed off that Rudd did that program with Kochie on Channel 7 last night!
Aunty, when your reporters act like cheerleaders for the Coalition and give Turnball a free run, are you surprised that the Ruddster gives INSIDERS the flick?
The sooner we get these conservative hacks off the ABC board, the better!
No joke, I think bringing back the staff elected board member is one of the best things the government has done.
Conroy’s call in Senate Estimates was gold. Give us back our openly leftist and proud ABC.
Just reading the word ‘Kochie’ makes me feel embarrassed all over again.
BB
the following illustrates the dilemna of getting out the message:
” A man is cupping his hand to scoop water from a Highland burn.
Game keeper shouts ‘ Dinnae drink thon water min, its foo o’ coo’s
shyte n pish.’
Man replies ‘My good fellow, I’m English …….repeat that in
English’.
Gamekeeper replies ‘I said use both hands – you get more that way.’
More Costello Rudd-bash ravings on Lateline. Why do they give him so much air time?
Eh?
Costello:
“I think the Coalition would do better if the election were held this November than last November.”
No, Peter. You’d be 26 seats worse off.
The ABC’s definition of objectivity: bash Rudd and give the Liberals all the airtime!
The ABC give the LNP free kicks because it is has a smattering of Liberal party appointees or they are instructed to upon high and are scared to say no. Whatever the reason it certainly leans to the right now days.
If the ABC were truly honest they would be asking Costello about the billions he wasted whilst in government and if he will apologise to the Australian people for not being a responsible MP and stopping Howard’s out of control spending, since he knew it was out of control and wondered if it was sustainable.
One wonders if Rudd’s appearance on Channel 7 is a bit of pay back to Channel 9 and the ABC for being pro Liberal. Koche was talking about a regular spot with the PM. Wont happen of course but the ABC and Channel 9 will be having a tantrum at even the suggestion. Maybe they could offer up Tanner to have a weekly chat
Oz @ 120 -
Costello:
“I think the Coalition would do better if the election were held this November than last November.”
I’d pay big money to see that!!
Has Cossie taken to smoking his remaindered books to diminish the huge mountain of them? LOL!
If we think Rudd has an impossible job with Australia’s hospital health care system what about China?
The health care needs are of biblical proportions and likely to get much worse given the high smoking rate.
Tony Jones after speaking to an economist then quipped that Costello might have been right. Shudder.
Lateline is a much better show when Leigh Sayles is hosting!
Tony Jones is too smug and full of his own self importance!
And Barry Cassidy knows zero about politics and football!
This is the standard of ABC political reporters in 2008!
I know! You’re right! Imagine Barry and Virginia on their new show in November!!!!!!
Hopefully it’ll be slight less revolting than Sunrise/Today,
Pathetic.
http://news.smh.com.au/national/abcs-qa-program-accused-of-labor-bias-20081020-54u1.html
“ABC managing director Mark Scott has defended the current affairs program, Q&A, against allegations it is heavily tilted in Labor’s favour.
Liberal Senator Eric Abetz attacked the television program during a Senate estimates hearing, saying the make-up of the show’s panel and studio audience largely consisted of Labor supporters”
Interesting that the gap between Labor and Liberal supporters is precisely the gap in their 2PP figures. If Abetz is suggesting that the ABC artificially balance the Audience and make it 50-50, his logic also dictates that the audience be split evenly between Labor, Liberal, FF, The Greens, CDP and whoever else.
I feel ill
i thought this was a very interesting reading, similar to newspoll where hawke, rudd and Howard hold the highest i believe, though howards most was generally during tampa and here its just after latham i wonder if its because latham was so bad or another reason?
Highest Nielsen Poll ratings for each Prime Minister since 1972:
1. Bob Hawke – 75% (Nov 1984)
2. Kevin Rudd – 71% (Oct 2008)
3. John Howard – 67% (Jan 2005)
4. Gough Whitlam – 62% (Feb 1973)
5. Malcolm Fraser – 56% (Apr 1976 and May 1978)
6. Paul Keating – 40% (Nov 1994)
7. William McMahon – 34% (Nov 1972)
Keating only got as high as 40% and he STILL beat Hewson lol
Peter Lloyd was originally going to be host of that new ABC breakfast show on ABC 2!
Last November there was a late narrowing probably because of incumbency, people’s fear of change from the familiar mystique of Howard. A November election now wont produce that narrowing because the alternative govt as a team is fairly poor, in fact it might go the other way and be a big blow out.
A DD right at this moment would be a disaster for the LNP. The Govt are handling the crisis well, people seem happy about what is being done, Rudd remains very popular and the PPM by a mile, the Govt is right in the middle of its plans and, to suddenly swap to the LNP would seem a very scary thing to do. The LNP would be routed. Luckily for the LNP the Greens and independents are playing ball with the govt so they don’t have to fear a DD.
If Costello and Jones truly believe that they (LNP) would do much better now they must be totally out of touch with reality, which is a possibility. Jones could be quite easily deluded but I reckon Costello knows they would get their backsides soundly walloped.
isn’t the point Costello is making that more so if the financial crisis was last year the coalition would of won which i don’t disagree with likewise this year labor wouldn’t lose if theirs a crisis that wasn’t the governments do9ng they generally stay in power
‘doing’
IMO it’s just like the Hillary Clinton supporters (pardon the allusion) saying she would be 20 points further ahead than Obama right now. My response: prove it.
If Costello was making that point then he is right in my opinion. It would have been very difficult for Labor to win govt in the midst of a crisis like this. We can see the benefit Brown and Clark in NZ are getting.
Rudd’s election mantra of ‘planning for beyond the resources boom’ which the LNP scoffed at was spot on and highlighted a major weakness of the Howard years.
Unfortunately the ‘beyond’ has basically arrived and their is no time to plan for beyond it. We have to play catch up. But at least some of the catch will keep demand going and help employment.
As a company CEO Howard would be seen as a complete failure (Costello would be irrelevant) and Rudd as the real goods. What company doesn’t plan for changing environments and doesn’t seek to strengthen its balance sheets and reduce risks! Yet this is the basic stuff that the PM of the country wouldn’t do instead assuming it will be milk and honey for ever more.
yeah i think he was referring to the financial crisis rather than just THIS November saying that it’s a ridicules point to make as i think any incumbent would win not JUST the liberal party so i don’t know what his positive point was.
No 138
What exactly has Rudd done to plan beyond the resources boom? Nothing at all.
The reality is that the first real action he has taken since being elected is spend the surplus, guarantee $1.2 trillion of savings for the next three years and labelled the current financial crisis as something akin to a national security crisis.
All eyes on China now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7679180.stm
GP,
Rudd and co are up to their armpits with alligators at the moment. It’s a bit unreasonable to point out their job is only to drain the swamp.
The SMH reports that federal budget cuts are forcing the Bureau of Meteorology to lay off staff. It’s a poor decision, especially in light of climate change.
Mike Bailey, former ABC meteorologist and 2007 ALP candidate for North Sydney, should be sought for comment.
The ALP never was very science friendly (Barry Jones was a token gesture).
Andrew Dolt and Iron Bar will no doubt be pleased.
What a surprise!
The ABC is running hard with the latest crap out of Hockey’s mouth!
I can barely listen to ABC radio news/current affairs these days, it’s wall to wall Liberal Party propoganda.
Fagin: Mike Bailey does the weather on Channel 9 in Sydney on the weekends.
How is Wagga, my old comrade? We miss you over at the other place.
Dear me, has the ABC become the new Australian? Media bias is 90% in the eye of the beholder, and the more partisan the beholder the more media bias they see. When the Libs were in, conservatives saw left-wing bias everywhere, because they were outraged everytime someone criticised their great leader. Now Labor is in, leftists see right-wing media bias everywhere. How dare Turnbull and co raise their piffling objections to our geat leader, and how dare the ABC give them a platform to do so? I also feel rising irritation every time I hear Turnbull or Bishop on AM, but I know that this is my own subjectivity speaking. It ought to be the ABC’s job to give as much space as possible to critics of whoever is in power, since those in power dominate the news cycle so effectively.
Whatever happened to equal air time? Doesn’t seem to be the case lately on the ABC…
and I should add, equal air time shouldn’t consist of 3 minutes of negative government stories followed by 3 minutes of positive opposition stories
Calls for a 50% tax on incomes over $1 million are receiving enough support from Greens and independants to get through:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/21/2396719.htm
This isn’t just clever politics (can you imagine how Turnbull will squirm when he has to vote on it?). There is a strong economic case for this measure. Apart from raising needed budget revenue (up to $500 million per year) there are several economics papers which have shown that executove salaries ballooned because of the ending of previous high top rates in the 90s, and that they have acted as a perverse incentive for executives to take large risks (with other peoples money) to earn these large salary/bonus packages. To illustrate that this can still happen here, NAB reportedly was holding $40 billion in CDS deals earlier this year, and ANZ held $27 billion in CDSs.
GP, to say the Rudd governments done nothing is pretty poor really as a labor supporter social equity is important to me aswell and that’s where the differences are huge amongst the party’s. Ruddy has improved the immigration policy of not locking up kids in detention centers, apology to the stolen generation, gave more right to gay couples, on from that there’s sighing Kyoto and setting up a carbon emissions trading scheme when Howard did nothing on the environment. Trucks loads already done in education with computers, national curriculum and trades training centres when howard disinvested in education.
His also looked really good on the international stage and as far as the economy goes as 3/4 people think his doing a very good job, Howard did nothing on the economy either well the GST lol, and the very creative idea of selling of telstra.
As far as the ABC I’m i the only one that don’t think there too bias there generally been known to be left wing and Kerry o Brian gave the toughest interview his ever giving near election time last year with j Howard also they did do a 30 min interview with keating a while back i remember Kennett in Victoria hated them cause there left wing bias think there are worse trying 3aw in Melbourne Neale Mitchell and derryin hinch
I don’t think the ABC journalists are consistently biased – some favour Labor, some favour Liberals, but overall it balances out. What annoys me more is the ABC board and the screening of obviously ideologically loaded shows like the Climate Change Swindle etc. This just lowers standards in the organisation.
Socrate
The 50% tax is one of the worst piece of legislation ever through of, and will not raise an extra cent of revenue
a. Kerry Packer never even earned $1 million a year, Kerry and all the other billionaires had “tax advisors” to structure their salary package to minimise tax to 30% (ie company tax rate). This measure won’t raise a single cent for the government.
b. These measure will cost Australian jobs, just say I am one of 10 directors who earns $1 million and has the ability to set up my business in Australia or Hong Kong, I would push the company to set up their Head Office in Hong Kong, where I only pay 21% tax. if I stay in HK for 90 days a year, I won’t pay any tax in Australia. So all the head office jobs will go to Hong Kong (see News Corporation)
c. Since the FBT rate is at the top marginal tax rate, it will affect people on lower salaries, who salary package. It will hurt people on $50,000 more than people on $1 million
d. It will create an extra tax threshold, which adds complexity to the tax system
It is one of the dumbest idea to ever originate from any government, it is also happening at a time when most foreign tax regimes (Singapore/Hong Kong etc) are trying to reduce top marginal tax to encourage entrepreneurs to invest and create jobs in their jurisdiction, while Australia is trying to discourage people from creating job
There had also been many tax report which have recommend lowering the top marginal tax rate to the Company tax rate (like HK, Singapore, China, etc) to reduce tax planning and promote efficiency in the tax system
this is once again class warfare, which will cost Australian jobs and will not raise 1c in tax
dovif – 152 – firstly, there is no such legislation and secondly, Tanner has said there is no intended legislation. Next.
dovif
it can’t simultaneously not work because people won’t pay it and drive them overseas so that they don’t have to.
Dovif
Drea not the power brokers in Labor are shooting it down:http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24529105-5006301,00.html
However I disgree with your arguments against the proposal, which are as spurious as Tanners.
- Kerry Packer did not earn his money via PAYE, hence his tax avoidance opportunities were far greater. Not a relevant example.
- there would be no job losses; this claim is often made but never proven. These people are heads of Australian businesses that are based here. If they earn their income here they get taxed here. The claim they would relocate is bogus.
- the FBT rules could be easily changed to match.
- The extra tax threshold woud affect less than six thousand people. The slight extra complexity (one extra line on the income scales) would hardly affect the complexity of a system with a 10000 page tax act.
- most foreign tax regimes are NOT trying to reduce their top rates, except small countries where they get most of their revenue from other sources (eg Hong Kong, Singapore). Your argument here sounds like an ACCI talking point. Did you get it from here?
http://www.acci.asn.au/text_files/issues_papers/Taxation/December%2005%20-%20Personal%20Income%20Tax%20Reform.pdf
Again this is false; there is no evidence that people in very high paid corporate positions migrate overseas to avoid tax. They’d have to give up their cushy job and all their connections to do it. If they did, then how come all the executives from higher taxing countries like UK, France and Germany don’t emigrate here? Not so.
Socrate
I get my information from the ATO.
Tax was one of the reasons that Murdoch took news limited’ head office overseas. Tax is also the main reason why professionals leave Australia to work overseas (ie investment bank, almost 1/3 of Macquarie bank’s workforce work in Hong Kong for a reason) Australralia’s top tax rate is too high. If these people lives in Australia and spend their money in Australia, it will definitely create more job. The tax rate is also one of the main reason why Australia has trouble attracting skilled migrants. Again costing jobs in the mining sector and increasing inflation,
The FBT can be change….. so that the people earning $1 million can get under it and not pay the additional tax anyway
Only small country does it? ie China, ie Ireland, ie Hong Kong
There is no evidence of people going overseas to work … yes there is, why is so many Australians working for Mac Bank in Hong Kong instead of Australia, There are also many examples of European and American company employing Australians to work in their Singapore offices
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Skilled migrants, blue-collar and white-collar, are flocking to Australia.
I’m enjoying the fact that your holding up the corrupt bastion of investment banking, Macquarie Bank, as an indicative model for the rest of Australian society.
This was raised before – You can’t say that there are loopholes and people won’t pay the tax anyway, and then say that people are going to flee the country to get away from the tax.
The Governor of RBA has just given a speech shown LIVE by Skynoooows. he basically torn apart Malcolm Turnbull’s latest “rage” on the Rudd Government handling of the crisis, especially the one to do with deposit guarantees.
Socrates (155)
You are right. There are a number of myths that the greedy few (especially company CEOs) have used to maintain their obscenely inflated salaries. But hopefully the current mess they have got us into, will see that change for the better.
Rudd’s strong rhetoric on the matter is welcome but as to whether anything actually gets done, I’ll believe it when I see it. .
Dovif
Its a circular arguement. See OECD articles on churning and the prisoners dilemna of tax cuts.
I didn’t know the ATO had proposed this. Do you have a reference? I’d like to see what Treasury thinks of it; not much I suspect.
Murdoch is again irrelevant – that is his company and personal fortune, but again not the same as Australian PAYE earners departing. These people can take themselves offshore whenever they want. But their job stays here. So would the income tax paid by whoever becomes the new incumbent. Thats not the same as the companies going off shore. Hence there is no national gain to lowering individual rates to match company rates. Despite all the concessions, we don’t have a large finance sector here anyway. Our finance sector is a net cost to all other forms of business, though they seem to forget that.
The suggestion that they (execs) would spend their money here and create jobs applies to ANY employment. taxign more or otherwise lowering exec wages would allow more jobs to be created with the same money and spending as well. Spending by very high income earners also has a high “leakage” due to purchase of imported Ferraris etc.
Our expatriates are attracted by high salaries more than low taxes and in any case, a lot are now returning home. Again they are a red herring too – we are talking about people on over $1 million per annum, not professionals. They aren’t shifting anywhere. The issue is business execs of local companies. I’ll believe your argument if I see the CEO of Westpac quitting to become CEO of Bank America. I’m not holding my breath.
Got any details?
The Finnigans 158.
I am curious as to where the OO or Turnbull got their info. Seems they have gotten bad info or low level nonsense. It wouldn’t be the first time Turnbull has made a total goose of himself when trying to attack either the RBA or Treasury (both Howard govt appointments) with bad info.
Turnbull has on a number of occasions demanded to see the Treasury or RBA info being positive that it supports his assertions, indicating he has some sort of mole inside. But it is a junior mole by the sounds of it,
I do hope nobody is paying for information.
Or a double agent!
Rudd keeps saying Turnbull’s had too much red cordial, hahaha.
Rudd has just repeated what the Gov said twice in QT. The Gov said “the guarantees were a sensible and fully supported by RBA.
So Bully now resorts to ask Rudd in QT did he (Rudd) speak to the Gov directly in person. How pathetic can you get. I thought it was Rudd that is the “process” man rather than the “outcome” man.
Turnbull is reverting to type on parliamentary tactics with remarkable speed. Howard’s standard tactic was if you can’t think of a good policy just go for a fear campaign – first it was terrorists, then illegal immagrants, now bank accounts. National interest is secondary in each case.
Wow Simon Crean’s answering a question. Haven’t seen him for a while. Looks old, poor bloke.
Crean will be 60 in February. Does that make him old? Or does he look older than that?
They’re Liberals. It’s their first recourse when the going gets difficult. I saw some bitter Liberal on an ABC news blog yesterday trying to raise a scare that Rudd would raise the GST.
I suppose he doesn’t look older than 60, but he’s certainly aged since the last time I saw him on TV. Which makes sense.
Turnbull keeps asking the same question and keeps getting the answer. What does he expect?
Ooh, Belinda Neal got a question.
talking of old howard tactics I noticed yesterday the Fibs demanding a cut in immigration numbers (they got themselves a policy now lol). only a matter of time until they get round to stirring up race hatred against our Aboriginals.
I wonder how many people would prefer Malcolm’s money guarantee policy of $100,000 instead of the government’s all in policy. I wouldn’t think it would be too many.
No 155
What is indeed spurious is the notion that you should tax people just because a few select communists believe that executive salaries are excessive. What is the definition of “excess” or “fairness” – I would comfortably argue that their definition is as arbitrary and capricious as their argument.
What is truly fair is that people keep what they earn, not have it stolen by the government who will spend it inefficiently like a drunken sailor.
More unsubstantiated rubbish from Socrates. Where is the evidence that “more jobs” would be created if taxed executive salaries to the back teeth? None. Any argument is at best academic. The facts that we do have indicate that in a time of unprecedented prosperity, employment dropped to ~4%, real wages increase by 20% – all whilst executive salaries reached high levels. Once we start down a pernicious slippery slope of capping wages, the economy will simply contract.
No 173
Yes, of course everyone prefers an all-out guarantee because it makes the safest form of investment even safer. The reality is that Turnbull’s $100k suggestion is far more prudent and scarcely distorts the money market as much as Rudd’s guarantee is doing.
Allbull after losing out with his attacks on Rudd now has switched to the head of treasury and want’s Rudd to sack him if at a later date it is found he didn’t have Steven’s support for guarantees ! Rudd got right up him, he praised treasury for their hard work over the past 3 weeks and said he absolutely supports them and demanded Allbull get to to feet immediatley and also pledge his support.
Brenda’s ratings are going to look good for PPM if this keeps up.
Well, how strange. The Reserve Bank Governor actually supports the government’s policy. Any change will affect a small number of people and changes were foreshadowed by Swan last week in parliament. So where does that leave Turnbull’s credibility?
What page are you reading from the Liberal’s Handbook GP?
Vera, was that was a disgraceful performance by the Libs in parliament. I reckon Turnbull asked one too many questions. Now he is going to be asked if he has confidence in the head of teasury. Not a good look if he doesn’t answer or says “no” and, if he says “yes”, well, how hypocritical will that look?
Generic Person at number 175 wrote:
It wasn’t so long ago the Liberals were advocating more than wage caps; they were giving employers the means to hand out pay cuts – for those already on low wages. For the health of the economy of course!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19259698-421,00.html
Pay cuts good for economy, says {Howard}
The Australian, 26 May 2006
Hoist with their own petard
180 – Cuppa, where’s your mind at? You know you cut the wages of those who can least afford it first and protect the wealthy. Sheesh.
GP
My comments are not unsubstantiated; I referred to various studies in the OECD that have looked at this. Have you read any? The leakage problem is recognised in the US economy.
The converse could also be argued – where is the evidence that the time of prosperity (recently ended?) was CAUSED by the high executive salaries? Or was it simply that, in a time of plenty, those in positons of power were able to exploit their positions for large personal gain at the expense of shareholders, due to weak regulation? I contend that was the case. No jobs were created by overpaying executives millions that wouldn’t have been created by a more equitable distribution of wages and/or taxation. Nor is there any relationship between higher exec salaries and productivity. The fastest growth rates (China and India) have been chalked up by enterprises that pay execs a fraction of US or Australian packages.
US studies have shown that exec salaries are costing shareholders 10% of gross profits, even when times are good. Alan Moss cost Macquarie a similar amount. Now that profits are going down the 5 will be even higher. Exec salaries are simply a rip-off of shareholders. That includes every retirees super fund too. If current corporate salaries cannot be reined in by corporate structures, then why not tax them punitively?
Finally, to illustrate that this is not a simply “academic” question, here is a link to a speech by former US Fed Reserve bank of New York CEO William McDonough who commented on the issue in 2002:
http://info.worldbank.org/etools/docs/library/50300/corpgov_issues.pdf
The comments are just as applicable in Australia as the US, and the trend has gotten worse since he made them.
Cuppa 180
Precisely. The hypocracy is glaring. The whole executive salary game is a closed shop run by HR firms that charge large amounts of money to give client CEOs the news they want to here (your new higher package is justified because someone in Switxzerland does the same job for more money. Don’t mention the five people in new zealand who do it for less.) The prvious government introduced the farcical law that shareholders could vote on a NON-BINDING resolution against the deals. Why non-binding?? Its the share-holders money!
PPM; Rudd 64, Turnbull 26.
It’s a massacre, and after catching a glimpse of todays QT, it’s as close as Talcum is going to get.
I would like to know if there is any voter who genuinely believes obscene executive salaries, where for e.g. a company loses two thirds of it’s value, staff are layed off and its CEO pays himself $30m, is acceptable. If you do, reprogram your brain, it’s fundamentally warped with neocon ideology.
The CEO then soon kicks the bucket and leaves it all to his spoilt little rich kids who know nothing else and blow it all on partying, drugs and alcohol.
I find it galling that they stand up to protect Maserati drivers and those earning in excess of 20,000 dollars a week (a million per year). Yet they all enthusiastically joined Howard, Costello, Andrews, Hockey in sinking the boot into those earning a few hundred dollars per week.
“Here’s two cents,” they said, while taking away penalty rates and overtime.
Then after blowing taxpayers’ money on propagandising their SerfChoices policy (>$120 million) and ridiculous scare campaigns against “union bosses” on the Labor front bench … they have the hide to be disgruntled because we voted them out and gave the other mob a go after almost 12 years.
Today the German government announced the strings they’ll attach to rescue package.
- 500,000 Euro salary cap
- No dividends
- Government influence on management
I understand that the Australian government has not actually ‘bailed out’ banks as many other countries have, but it’s still an interesting precedent and it will be interesting to see if other European countries follow in the same vein.
We set award wages for almost every other profession. Why not executives?
I don’t know if a salary cap is constitutional here in Australia, but we sure can implement a tax threshold of say 80 cents in the dollar for any emplyee paid over a certain amount above average weekly earnings or above the average amount paid by its own company in salaries.
OZ
OMG SOCIALISM !!!!
PANIC!!!!
Harsh Centre. Way to declare my idea unconstitutional and then shamelessly plug your own.
Seriously though, the fact that Tanner shot down 50% for > $1 million straight away doesn’t look like there’s much hope. I wonder if The Greens or Xenophon, who supported the idea, will try and push through a private members bill. Good political move and would show both the Government and the Opposition ‘out of touch’.
Incidentally notice that executive salaries in Australia are actually higher than France, Germany and Japan. So much for the claim that all our executives will emigrate for greener pastures if we tax them more. The only greener pastures are the US and UK, and they are headed into deep recessions. Does anyone seriously think there would be a shortage of applicants for the job of CEO of Westpac if the salary were “only” $500K per annum?
It would be astute politics for Greens, Xenephon and Fielding to insist on such a bill as quid pro quo for carbon trading or whatever else the govenment wanted.
re 190.
Extreme neocon capitalism – tax payers bailing out large corporations. PANIC IN PROGRESS!
Reminded me of a letter in the Sun Herald, Zombie Mao. Adele Horin’s column on Saturday pretty much declared Marx a genius and a god but with one failure – he couldn’t predict a credit crisis.
An academic from Melbourne hit back the next day and wrote a letter quoting Marx in Capital Vol. 3 where he detailed the issues surrounding credit and debt.
Whether or not you agree with his ideas re The Manifesto it’s hard to deny that Capital remains the best analysis of modern capitalism around and should be compulsory reading for every person on the planet.
An award doesn’t limit wages
Executive salary caps have to come in.
The linch pin will be the US under Obama convincing major nations to take co-ordinated action on this. Currently over US $500,000 is not tax deductable – which has meant nothing.
The other thing that must go is the golden parachutes – currently 3 times annual salary.
Where else do you get such a windfall for stuffing up?
Even our pollies have to put in their 8 years to get their windfall for life. Pollies salaries are also a fraction of executives.
Interesting how pattern compensation is just fine for execs but verging on criminal if you happen to get your hands dirty while earning your living…
Why not just pass laws requiring 2/3 of a company’s shareholders to approve executive salary packages and increases, instead of the non-binding rubbish we have now?
Dario 195 True. Although most public service awards set effective limits, and in cases of high demand (eg football players) we have salary caps.
The real issue is that other professions don’t set their own wages contrary to the wishes of the owners of the business.
Anybody correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think we can stop an employer paying an employee what they like. But we can introduce a new tax threshold for overly excessive amounts.
The truth is that you can’t pay people too little or too much. In both cases, it’s unproductive.
Dario, institutions determine executive salaries in practice.
Another pathetic QT from Malcolm B. today. He seems to think he is in a court, cross examining the Govt. trying tricky prosecution questions, trying to incriminate the witness.
But what is the political point? People are happy with the Govt., more banks have announced interest rate cuts. Yet he wants to bang on about some vague financial point, that was a story with no evidence, from “The Australian”.
Yet another day in opposition wasted.
Malcolm B. Bear it is about getting people to vote for you. Not being a wally.
just listening to abc 702
and who should pop up malcolm farr-dorothy dixer from glover
‘ i suppose there is doubt about the governor of th reserve bank agreeing to the uncapped deposits
Farr: ‘well yes this question has still not been answered”
wrong mr farr of little knowledge.
answered in parliament by rudd earlier today in QT
clean your ears out malcolm and stop spreading disinformation and rumourmongering
BB they need you old son
No gus,
Let them misinform. It is here where people can get informed.
Don’t ya hate it when facts get in the way of a flip flop
Centre, if only if we were the oligarchy running things.
Yes Oz. But maybe somebody is listening?
I thought we decided the other day that they were. This is very Truman Show-ish.
Feels like some kind of focus group experiment. Especially after whatshisname detailed ‘media monitoring’.
???
As a Melburnian I say PLEASE TELL ME MORGAN IS JOKING!!!!
http://www.roymorgan.com/
My bad, I wasn’t sure who it was.
AHAHAHA.
Surely this is some kind of conflict of interest.
Maybe that explains some of his dumb political statements of late
Centre… what part of the constitution would stop the Parliament legislating to fix salaries?
If Gary Morgan wants to run for Lord Mayor good on him. It is every persons right to do so.
Apparently he ran in 2004?
http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/MelbourneResult2004.html#1
Came a very close fourth.
Restraint of trade? Where does that fit in?
Yeah I think it’s there in section 37, sub section xvii part (4a), (4b) & (7c&d) lol.
Well the Commonwealth has basically unlimited power to legislate in regard to trade and commerce under the constitution. We basically have very few rights under the Constitution… a right to no government fixing of wages/salaries is not one of those rights.
In fact we fix minimum wages etc. so arguing that fixing a maximum salary would be unconstitutional would be pretty hard.
Good try, Centre. I should register a political party running purely on that platform – restrict the highest wages to 30x the lowest wage. I’d call it “Thirty Times”. Our slogan would be “Thirty times! Thirty times!”. How comprehensive. If Fielding can get a seat on ‘family values’ and Xenophon on nothing, then I can get one on sheer populism.
So court decisions based on restraint of trade are just citing existing legislation, not any constitutional grounds?
I have no problem with CEOs getting paid squillions, it is when they get dodgy options that increase their pay at the expense of shareholders, in the long term, that needs to be addressed.
Rewarding CEOs for “rogue” risk taking is a thing of the past, in this brave new world of financial prudence. Ha Ha I wish.
Swan used a very good phrase today that I think is one that will continually stick to Turnbull; ’slippery barrister language’
Of the three;
Merchant of Venice
Rainmaker
Slippery barrister language
I think the last one hurts Turnbull as it is actually describes to some extent Turnbull’s talking style or the feeling you get with it. So when one thing reinforces another it cuts through. And it is a connotation that will stick if used on a regular basis and has many variations.
Turnbull’s slippery words.
Slippery Turnbull speak.
Turnbull’s slippery facts.
Very slippery with the data.
Slippery back room barrister talk.
‘What we have here is “Turnbull data” , created by slippery barrister talk.’
Slippery is a monica that can stick to Turnbull because it fits the image he presents thus it is a dangerous one.
Shorter Michael Brissenden:
Shorter Kerry O’Brien:
Shorter Wayne Swan:
Fair go, TP, Monica is a name. My real one. Moniker is the term to describe names such as “slippery” or “Rainmaker”. Frankly, IMO, humble adjectives such as clueless could suffice to describe Turnbull’s performance. Rudd is running rings around him. Whomever is providing information to Turnbull and the O.O. should probably be ignored, if they had any sense. However, Turnbull has such an ego, he probably won’t, such is his need to make himself the story. Ditto, whoever anonymously (coward), had that story published this am in the O.O., subsequently shot down by Glen Stephens, should never be published again. But, of course, that’s not going to happen any time soon.
Brissenden is such a tool, B.B. I can’t fathom why Kerry O’Brien is doing the unutterably stupid form of interviewing evident at the moment. As though anyone could do the sort of detailed, in depth, guarantee everything type response being demanded. All I can think is that the ABC (no, not you Antony) has been unutterably changed internally, for the worse, in my view. Specifically, news and analysis. Very sad.
So Brissenden is saying that Glen Stevens came out and lied? I mean the RBA governor came out and set the record straight and the ABC is saying ‘who is telling the truth’.
Then we have Kerry come out with his own barrister talk simply ignoring the RBA Governor’s statements today, also implying that he is somehow lying.
Whats with Kerry O’Brien? The other day he went all panicky and lost perspective over Keen’s concerns and now a question like that?
I get the feeling that the OO story was a deliberate invention to give Turnbull something to make an issue over. Unfortunately for their plans the RBA govenor came out in good time and set the record straight in the process showing the OO to be totally wrong.
But we shouldn’t forget that it was the murdoch press that made an unprovoked front page very personal attack on the RBA govenor. Why? Because they were putting up rates and that was hurting the Howard/Costello myth. A most blatant corruption of the media.
223 TP – good point, Slippery Malcolm may get a run (cf Slick Willy with Clinton).
Uless he has a leaked letter or minute from Stevens, Turnbull’s assertions are nothing.
The story to me sounds more like some gossip from one of Turnbull’s dinner parties where one of his Banker mates said “and the RBA doesn’t even want it – Stevens has said to people he doesn’t like it etc etc ”
Some proof would be nice. The OZ says:
Give me a letter… geez even give me a brief with Swan writing on it “I want to know about this”
The Turnbull LNP use a slash and burn tactic that is bad for Australia. If they can’t get what they want out of Treasury or the RBA they then try to undermine them. You get the feeling the Turnbull LNP will trash anybody and anything if it helps them. It is truly reckless.
But undermining important institutions, like the Treasury and RBA, is a slippery slope that can get out of control. What do they want, that the people give no credibility to any of our institutions if they don’t support what Turnbull says? Sounds like Howard.
The worst thing is that the murdoch media will support them in trashing whomever it is they want trashed.
We are going to end up with Slippery Turnbull and the Slippery OO.
I think Turnbull is showing with these types of tactics that he would be no better than Howard if in power. There will be no dissent or criticisms tolerated.
My concern is more that I have no idea what he stands for. A little bit of ideaology would be nice – surely it can’t all be pragmatism – at least Howard hated unions!
He seems to be showing all the hallmarks of someone who had been in Government for 12 years and thinks he knew it all, even though he had been there for only a third of that time. Makes you wonder.
hmmm, i love a good conspiricy theory, so just a thought, just maybe, Rainmaker’s mole in the treasury is anti his lordship and is deliberatly feeding him spurious leaks so he’ll make a right dork of himself as he did today, obviously the 00 headlines in the a.m. edition, must have come right from the libs head office, just to give Rainmaker a platform from which to start spouting spurious shock and outraged indignation, joined in of course by all of his satellites, aka Christpher Whiner etc, seems a likely conspiricy to me.
It’s amazing how much the world has changed in the last month – get this from Glenn Stevens today:
Abnd I thought “whew” could you imagine a month, or two ago the RBA governor using the phrase “global catastrophe” and not setting off a panic?
Ok Malcolm Turnbull could imagine it, but not mere mortals such as I
FWIW
Rudd said in parl QT today that the bonus due to the treas sec had been halved under howard due to the fact that he had warned back in 2002 that the gov was causing inflationary pressures
report that brissarse and toofargone
oh thats right your “talking points” come from fib central
tossers
Why should the Govt guarantees the deposits in the funds such as Challenger Howard Mortgage Fund. It’s always known that you put money into fund like this for higher return therefore higher risk.
Why dont we ask the govt to guarantee the share prices as well.
Sadly the ABC is now little more than the propoganda arm for the Liberal Party!
Brissenden ought to be sacked for journalistic incompetence!
you’d think this bunch of idiots would just once put whats good for the country before their own massive ego’s, their main agenda seems to be making themselves relevant.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=650748
And Turnball better be careful before he makes any more libellous remarks about Ken Henry – the Liberals are making complete arseholes of themselves!
They’re Liberals. That’s their job.
238 – they can try I can’t see the Green’s, Xen or Fielding will stand in the way too much:
Fielding’s demand is easy, and ok the Green’s is tougher given the accent on ports, but they at least will negotiate some…
GP174
I actually have a slightly different morality to your’s. Mine says that the rich have a social responsibility to share some of what they have for the benefit of society as a whole – AND – (you’ll love this bit ) if they refuse to do so, it is perfectly ok for the poor to take some of it from them – by force if necessary.
Just as a matter of interest, under your morality, if everyone keeps everything they earn, what do we do with all those annoying sick people, or unemployed people, or old people who don’t have any money – let them starve?.
The Government brings in a stimulous package to premept a global slowdown and hopefully (along with other measures) put off a recession. A reasonable thing given that if you waited for sure evidence to appear in the economy it would be too late. It is the responsible and reasonable thing to do given there is plenty of global evidence to suggest that a significant slow down is good bet and, that the fault of governments in the past has been to act too late or not at all.
The government gives an unlimited guarantee for three years for bank deposits to give confidence and to ensure money doesn’t dissapear to banks elsewhere in the world that do and so on.
These are all reasonable and supportable actions and done in a timely fashion. Evidence of an aware government with the courage to act.
However what we get in the media is the same old negative carping on details or on esoteric things. But the most stupid criticism is that maybe the stimulous package wasn’t necessary.
This is truly a cheap shot because the government has to make a call ahead of the game for it to have its best effect. These same commentators would be lambasting the government and complaining it failed to act quickly enough if we did go into a recession. These commentators also fail to even note that economists of world renown support the exact action type of action the government is taking or do they compare what Rudd is doing with other governments.
In short it is an easy cheap shot for many commentators to pick any angle they like and it doesn’t require any sort of intelligence on their part. It is an easy article to write and insert you prevailing cynicism, spleen or bias. The standard of journalism in Australia is truly lamentable.
I can just picture Tody Abbott in a back room with his blade and whetstone – rubbing, rubbing. The metal flashes in the cold sunlight, his brow grows dark. He waits his moment, poising to strike…
Ok, a couple of points just to clear up some stuff…
1. Thomas P.: I wrote “shorter” Brissenden. That meant I was paraphrasing. Brissended did not utter the words “Who is telloing the truth?”, but that was the clear implication. The point was that he ran the “Rudd acts against Reserve Bank Governor’s advice” story many hours after the RBG specifically denied it. It was like, “This is how the story unfolded…” and then at the end he tacked on the denial to the end of the video piece, treating the RBG’s statement merely as “balancing” commentary against Turnbull’s assertion. “Turnbull says this but the RBG says that“. All well and good, unless the RBG’s statement was a flat-out denial.
I worked in commercial TV news editing way back (1981… gulp!) and when we had cut a story together, and there was a last minute denial or contra-indication, we went with the story and tacked on the denial at the end. Otherwise a whole day’s editing would have been wasted. It was clear to me that Brissenden had cut his story and archived it, and then only very reclutantly added the RBG’s “denial” bit at the end, leaving it hanging with a question mark to make it look like the RBG’s denial was just another input, of equal weight (to Turnbull’s baseless allegation) to the main story.
2. On a recent thread (a week ago) I offered to eat my hat if Turnbull wasn’t the recipient of middle-level leaks from a disaffected Treasury official. The offer stands, and in fact I’ll extent it to my shoes as well. BUT: it’s up to youse to prove otherwise, though. Fair’s fair.
Hat and shoes totally safe.
It would be infinitely more interesting if the LNP were buying information from someone in Treasury, but this is very unlikely. Some Howard type appointee is leaking data but because it is half baked they appear to be a bit lower down the tree. I have no doubt that the AFP are watching.
Leaks are annoying things but leaks of financial type data during an international global crisis is a much more serious affair. And certainly some businesses would love to know some information which, would amount to insider trading.
B.B. whoever is leaking certainly cant be too high up, he/she isnt very accurate, a leak is only worth while if it’s spot on and hits a nerve, the leaks so far have only made Rainmaker look a dill–i take that back, they make him look like an egotistical dill, when the cameras pan in on him in question time, he sits there smugly smiling thinking how wonderful he is and it shows, has anyone noticed how sour Hockey looks nowadays? gone is the genial hail fellow well met, everyones favourite uncle look, he looks as if he’s existing on a diet of green lemons.
GB @ 210
Gary Morgan doesn’t do jokes.
Unless it is sacking 60 interviewers by email.
Or employing all his interviewers as subcontractors so he can give them below award wages and conditions.
He is truly the most appalling human being I have met. He is a genuine lunatic.
He stood for election in 2004 on policies which included moving the homeless out of the CBD (didn’t matter where, they are upsetting shoppers) and exterminating possums in the city’s parks (no matter that they are a protected native animal).
If the people of Melbourne elect him a Mayor, they have only themselves to blame.
judith
without disclosing too much,the avuncular one has decided to adopt a more hermit like lifestyle lately.
irrelevance the liberal party is thy name
gawd Winston and i thought the major kooks came from dear old Adelaide, we do have our share here, Xenophon, Downer, Pyne and in the state parliament Kanck and Brissenham or whatever her name is, she got in on xenophon’s coat tails, i thought it was something in the water {or lack of it} here.
yep the struggle against impotence continues.
Gusface, if youve got any gossip, in parliamentry terms please come clean.
Anyone know if Nelson still rents a room from Hockey?
Joe always looks like he has been mortally offended.
judith
once before I said a tad too much
suffice to say that in my heart i can say that whilst not a pariah,the avuncular one has certain maintained a much lower profile post Gvt.
Mesmerelda’s on Lateline…
bugga, we seem to be getting a massive overdose of either Mesmerelda or Rainman lately, do we have to shun every political program to be free of them? it’s a bit like Howard in his hey day, his grinning visage haunted every program, maybe some libs helped to vote him out to clear their screens.
Julie Bishop making a fool of herself on Lateline even as we speak.
Tony Jones has asked her five times if the Libs have any evidence that the Reserve Bank Governor warned the government about its decision to give an unlimited guarantee on bank deposits. Finally she has admitted they haven’t.
Talk about digging a political grave for yourself. .
So Bishop has admitted waht I suggested earlier today – for the opposition, whether its inflation or a collapsing economy, its jsut a scare campaign. Add panic to an already jittery share market? Who cares, as long as it gets them elected. If they fail they can always blame the government for any economic fallout.
At this point any claims to fiscal responsibility or conservatism on the liberal’s part are dead and burried.
238
Judith Barnes
Just read your link. Far out! Recession looms but let us push our own little barrow! You despair at times!
Jovialmonk, i’m still gobsmacked, Darn we get the programs 1/2 hr later here, thanks for letting me know about Esmerelda, i wouldnt miss it for worlds.
She’s truly hopeless. Feigned indignation is about all she’s got.
Its the little things I find amusing about these peopel performing for the media. Bishop referred otothe (bank rescue) legislation being “given royal ascent”. Why say that? She could refer to governor in council approval, gazettal, but no its “royal ascent”. It will be funny to hear her answer whether she agrees with Malcom Turnbull on the republic debate. Bring on the vote Kevin!
And yes thanks Jovial Monk – I also got to see Bishop on Latelien in Adelaide and the laughs were worth the price of admission. I bet they won’t quote to many parts of that interview in the Oz tomorrow.
she is the most irritating woman, i’m sure she stands in front of a mirror practising her elocution, it wouldnt matter if what she said made sense, all she’s doing is calling everyone except the lib party liars–and that includes some of the most senior public servants and economists in the land, i guess Turnbull doesnt like getting caught out putting his hand in the candy jar and just to pull out sour drops.
Probably the ABC and Channel 9 will try and punish Rudd for going on Channel 7. How dare he not lay down and let them run him and Labor down. How dare he and Labor be popular!
Wonder how the share market crash has hurt murdoch’s balance sheets? In a dream he has to break up his papers and sell off his Australian assets to Warren Buffet or the like. Wouldn’t that make the murdoch boys sh*t themselves at having to become proper journalists; a democrat as owner.
This thing about Stevens of the RBA, or Henry of Treasury having some concerns about the governments deposit guarentee plan has to be the biggest non-story of the year. I mean, we all know Turnbulls an idiot by now, do we need this reinforcement??
Rudd, Stevens and Swan have all denied it happened, the only people saying it did happen have no evidence to back their claim, and hey, they are the Government after all. They may take advice from Treasury and the RBA but they dont take instructions from them.
Swan appeared to be very reasonable on 7:30 report. Basically they did something quickly because they needed too, and if they need to do any fine tuning or make changes to what they have planned they will, as and when they need to. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
I think that Turnbull must be getting some kind of low quality leaks on this stuff, or he wouldnt be making such a goose of himself. Would be a joke if these leaks are actually carefully crafted and precisley targeted “talking points” from ALP headquarters??
Ego Homing Precision Guided Weapons of Credibility Destruction (EHPGCD’s)??
261, 262 Wasn’t me that mentioned mesmerelda on lateline–look at #256
Swan was more than just sounding reasonable – he was correct. You can read any number of economics blogs to see people’s thinking evolve as this crisis has developed. Strategies have been refined around the world as markets have responded for better or worse to earlier versions. This is a non-story.
Jovial – you are right. Thanks Yes We Can! Yes we watched and yes we laughed
The behaviour of the LNP in parliament since they lost the election has been pretty awful and often shameful but I guess it takes time to adjust. But they don’t seem to be learning anything.
Turnbull thinks he is clever with his tactics of using half baked data then attacking respectable people when it doesn’t work out, but he is also in danger of it all back firing and been seen as dishonest and slippery.
Swan had him fairly well pegged in parliament today when he reinforced that Turnbull has only ever cared about one thing in his career, himself. This is also another issue about Turnbull’s character that can be easily reinforced by Labor since it also shows out in his style so it has a source to feed on.
Self Obsession
Self Obsessed arrogance
Malcolm is only for Malcolm
Turnbull is for Turnbull and thats all that matters to him.
‘Malcolm ought to learn that people aspire to high office so they can serve the people, not for self pleasure. Malcolm is for Malcolm.’
And so on.
Australians won’t be fooled by Mr Turnbull’s slippery barrister talk.
His personnel style and methods offer so much good material I am surprised Labor has taken so long to latch onto it.
It all works because his personnel presentation and methods fits it all to a tee.
personal
Problem with the politics of the “GFC” is that the thinking and responses of governments needs to be able to evolve. But turkeys like Turnbull and Bishop are clouding the air (circling like bloody vultures rather than turkeys actually) waiting to pounce on ANYTHING that they think they can make short term profile out of.
I guess thats politics, but it aint going to help them in the polls.
Looks like the Libs & Nats are just one big happy family.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24530375-601,00.html
Yes they really haven’t thought this through. Imagine for a moment that everything Turnbull and Bishop said had been true. There are two obvious responses:
1. So what? The government has acted decisively and it seems to have worked. Who cares if one bureaucrat had a diferent opinion? There are dozens of opinions floating around on this crisis.
2. What would you (Turnbull) have done differently? Not guaranteed deposits (after talking up fears about them)? Extended the guarantee to foreign banks, including his own Goldman Sachs? Not created a stimulus package and let the economy slip into recession? Created a stimulus package and biased it towards corporate high flyers? Delayed for lengthy parliamentary debates and senate inquiriess until its to late? Lots of stupid ways to answer question 2.
Truffles and co. appear to be suffering from severe RDS*. On the morning news the Usual suspects (Pyne etc) said Rudd had breached the peoples trust by guaranteeing 100%
of all bank deposits, because they had a leak from the reserve bank saying otherwise. (As if Truffles wouldn’t guarantee his rich merchant banker mates deposits). Then Truffles, followed by Mesmerelda, trotted out the same argument for the noon news. We now know that’s all crap, but obviously their Spin
Doctors came up with a ‘look at moi, look at moi’ plan last Night to try and stop Rudd’s total dominance of the News Cycle for the last 2 weeks during the ‘GFC’.
* Relevancy Deprivation Syndrome
I wonder if people are sick enough yet of the continual flow of negative political TV and papers. Everything is presented in the negative.
You rarely see an optimistic approach to political reporting or even neutral reporting. They always start with the assumption that maybe the government hasn’t done something right and then move on from there. Then they all become the greater than government experts on something even though governments have access to all the experts and data; they sit on the sidelines and nit pick this and that like sulking children simply because they think that is political reporting; never support the government or at least always criticise the government once, so you can seem smart and important.
The negative media and attacks of Howard and the Murdoch press on Rudd before the election seemed to have had limited effect. People were probably turned off and had enough of the Republican style approach by the Murdoch media and the Liberal party. And with the Murdoch media you can even taste their spite sometimes
I think that it was Howard that injected that extra spite, malice and hate into Australian politics and it now permeates the place.
This sort of thing is depressing and you wonder if it hurts their viewing/readers let alone the sales of advertisers. It would be nice to see someone actually take an optimistic approach to political reporting and talk up the country for a change.
A positive opposite version of ‘The Australian’ would probably out sell it by a mile. At the moment it seems it is only ‘The Age’ and Channel 7 that get any where near producing a less negative less depressing approach to news and politics. Channel 9 I don’t bother with as I don’t with The Australian or any Murdoch paper apart from their local rag which is free for me.
It is unfortunate what out of control partisanship can do to a paper. The Australian has been reduced to a trashy paper of reduced credibility and getting to be as bad as a cheap tabloid, who at least don’t try and trade on credibility.
By some strange movement of the stars over the years it has now come to pass that people are much more likely to learn the truth about something political if they read The Age rather than the OO.
The Age has become a far superior paper than The Australian for credibility on political reporting and opinion. That has got to hurt they sycophants.
Shanahan has been at it again, trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s (r)ear.
Turns out, according to him, that Labor was wrong (again) for providing an open ended guarantee and acting speedily to avert a certain and immediate economic disaster.
It should, instead have let the fiscal world crash upon our heads while it worked out all the minutiae and detail of it’s approach and then, apparently, come to essentially the same decision (with due deference to any cap that Malcolm Turnbull might care to suggest) when it was too late for it to be of any benefit.
And futhermore, in coming to this decision it should have included every lender in the land under the protective umbrella of the guarantee (presumably even my mother in law), so as not to prejudice the position and financial wellbeing of the profligate merchant bankers who created the problem in the first place.
And, in spite of direct and uncontroverted evidence to the contrary, in spite of the Reserve Bank’s chairman’s acknowledgement to the contrary, in spite of Julie Bishop’s ungracious and sourly sputtered admission that there was no evidence to support the assertion, he continues the baseless lie invented by his newspaper (if not he himself), that the decision was taken “without full and direct exchanges with the Reserve Bank”.
This man’s blind and unquestioning loyalty to the Liberal Party and all the political, moral and ethical obscenity it stands for, his willingness to prostitute his profession for the sake of his bigotted and flawed idealogy, his total disregard for truth, fairness or any semblance of balance and reason, are an embarrassment, and make him a laughing stock and deserving of all the contempt and odium posters on this blog have directed towards him.
Even more sinister is this story from today’s Australian where the paper and the Courier Mail has set themselves up to be the official mud throwers against a potential political candidate in the next Queensland election. I would have thought that some sort of Privacy laws might have precluded a national paper from following a fifteen year old around just so the paper can damage the chances of someone thinking of running for political office.
The Queensland political reporting has descended into a gutter level nonsense. It is time some respect was shown for individual’s civil liberties in the rush to get the Liberal National Party elected.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24532986-5006786,00.html
As yet we don’t have much law in relation to privacy. The best they could hope for is to try and sue the journalists/photographers for stalking.
Should people be entitled to privacy? Certainly… but that’s something many here were rejecting as a notion that should be extended to players of the political game just a few days ago with ‘Joe the plumber’.
Scorpio @ 273
Boswell is a real embarrassment to The Nationals… even more so with the knowledge he was their leader in the Senate for 17 years. I’m sure even they can do better than him.
Shanahan’s wetting his pants. He thinks he’s got the government in a lay-down misere. Apparently the “rushed” their decision.
Of course, if they’d set up an inquiry to look into the matter they’d have been vacillating and dithering, “typical Rudd”, and “hitting the ground reviewing”.
I doubt whether too many punters will worry about merchant banks and other financial spivs seeing their leveraged derivatives based on dodgy blocks of flats built on swamp land go through a bit of the lean time treatment. I also doubt that if the guarantee is reduced a little, or amended in some other way, that the mugs will rush back to the sharp suits and their high-interest, high-risk investment schemes any time soon. I heard one on the radio just yesterday, advetising 11.75% “guaranteed” return. Pleading would have been a better word. It seems obvious to me that when proper banks are in danger from a meltdown caused by their unregulated lurk merchant cousins you back up the banks first and leave the snake-oilers out to dry inthe mean time.
Shanahan seems to be naysaying the entire idea of backing the banks, with his use of phrases like “risking hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayers’ money.” The last time he lamented the use of taxpayers’ money it was in his piece from New York, whingeing that the VIP jet which brought Rudd “bolting” home for the Grand Final was laid on with “taxpayers’ money”. Does he want Rudd to have a whip around before take-off? Pay for the jet fuel with his Visa card? It’s too silly for words.
Today Ken Henry is going to receive a “ferocious grilling” (according to ABC Radio news). My, my… hell hath no fury like a Liberal Party scorned by one they thought was their own. That Turnbull embroiled Henry in a QT mess is bad enough. That he called for his resignation (and then effectively rescinded it by saying he had confidence in Henry) shows how unhinged the Opposition has become. Luckily for Rainmaker, Dennis came to the rescue this morning, writing this monstrous blunder off as a temporary “loss of discipline”. I’d have loved to have seen his description if a Labor member had made the demand from Opposition.
Damned if they do and damned if they don’t, the government has to make the call. The constant carping from the sidelines will impress only the talk radio-bound fascists as they cheer the Opposition into destroying confidence and talking the economy and the government down in a time of crisis, ironically to the detriment of their own pockets.
When a kid or a pet dog suddenly runs out onto the street in front of your car you don’t use nuance. You slam on the brakes first, or swerve to avoid a tragedy. After that you can resume your journey. There’s nothing worse than back seat drivers like Turnbull and Shanahan telling you that you should have seen him, or should have been driving a little slower. In any case, if you had been driving slower, they’d have been whingeing you were too cautious and you should get a wriggle on.
How do I know this? My wife does it all the time.
BB
There was an article in the SMH which talked of how Rudd, Tanner, Swan and co have been working on a response to the global financial crisis since February when they started receiving warnings during Rudds overseas visits.
Briefings they got enabled them to plan and enact a swift response if the crisis turned out as bad as they were warned.
Bishop and co complaining that other institutions should also have the same gaurantee was pure silliness, one of the other “banks” complaining is the Bank of Scotland, which the UK govt had to put about $60 billion into to stop it collapsing. The opposition should not be demanding to prop up foreign institutions, it could run into trillions of dollars.
As to the “leaks” from treasury to Turnbull and co, including the advice that Stevens was “anti” the gaurantee, suspect ti is payback for all that the PS had to undergo in the past 12 years. Feed little morsels of correct info then give em a big dose of pure bs when they are well and truly in. Bit like fishing.
Thomas Paine @ 265 -
Wonder how the share market crash has hurt murdoch’s balance sheets? In a dream he has to break up his papers and sell off his Australian assets to Warren Buffet or the like.
A lot of people share the dream. But I don’t see why it has to remain a dream. Why can’t we have media ownership laws similar to the American model which forced Rupert to become a Yank (poor buggers!) if he wanted to become a big media player there?
He has a long history of using his TV and newspaper assets to further News Ltd agenda even when it’s been against their local national interest.
Anyway, do we really need foreigners to kkep us infomed (and interfering in our political process)?
Judith Barnes @ 250 -
and i thought the major kooks came from dear old Adelaide…….i thought it was something in the water {or lack of it} here.
<disclaimer>
Um…let the record show that I was born overseas, grew up in WA, spent most of my working life in Queensland and have only accidently drunk the gawd awful liquid laughingly known in this state as ‘water’! ;P
</disclaimer>
Turnball/News Ltd/the ABC are flogging a dead horse, I doubt this crap will concern the average voter too much!
MayoFeral, hey dont take offence lol, i was born here in Wright st in the west end, Saint Marys Dominicans in Franklin st was my school and we loathed the Sturt st public schoolies, i’m a fanatical West Adelaide and Crows footie supporter and i too spent a few years in Queensland and couldnt get back to dear old Adelaide fast enough, i’ve travelled a lot overseas and Adelaide as far as i’m concerned is the only place for me–saying that we still seem to breed more than our share of dingbats here, look at Martin Hamilton Smith and some of the other dills we have in state parliament, didnt Bishop come from the Adelaide hills? and we wont mention Minchin and Pyne, mind they are balanced out by Stott Despoya, Wong and our very credible Julia who just maybe, will eventually end up as our very first female PM.
judith
but you forgot to mention dolly, our longest serving,best dressed foreign minister ever
So the big story today is how Swan has “backflipped” on the deposit guarantee by saying that deposits over a certain amount will have to pay a fee.
Wasn’t that always the case? I remember discussing the benefits of that when the deal was first announced.
Gusface, whoops now how could i miss him??? that was very remiss of me to ignore lord Downer lol.
Liberal senators accused Ken Henry of lying in Senate Estimates.
They’re risking a lot on this, they must have some information. I put myself in the ‘eating hat’ quarters.
It turns out Campbell and Bishop was right
Rudd did not speak to the RBA and only through Ken Henry did.
The RBA Governor questioned Rudd about the Guarantee, and how it will led everyone to dump shares and managed investment for Bank term deposits.
So Rudd is completely following Campbell’s policy from 4 weeks ago, ie Limited Bank Deposit Gaurantees
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24531324-601,00.html
“Wayne Swan told the ABC’s 7.30 Report last night: “The Reserve Bank is not arguing for a cap; that is Malcolm Turnbull’s policy.”
Did that really happened? Can anyone confirm
Why does that matter? The facts are – Henry supported the plan, the regulators supported the plan and the RBA supported the plan. Henry relayed all that information to the PM.
If you think there’s a problem with that you’re effectively calling Ken Henry and possibly Glenn Stevens a liar.
No, it’s an unlimited guarantee but the Government will charge an insurance fee for deposits over $1 million. And like I said, I recall Wayne Swan saying that was going to part of the plan when it was first announced. The Australian calling it a ‘backflip’ does not make it so.
I was listening to Peter Martin on 891. He reported that Ken Henry’s response in the Senate’s Estimates Committees was that the Newspaper reports were “W-R-O-N-G!”, and really emphasized this.
Poor old Shanahan, had to change hands but the result is the same. Left handed or right handed Shanahan writing fails to surpass high school standards and, his continual attempts to save Turnbull and the Libs so obvious you start to wonder if he has a ring on his finger.
The Slippery Barrister has again made a total idiot of himself and in his true Karl Rove form, when found to be totally wrong, attacks the persons in the room with the most credibility, Ken Henry and Glen Stevens. Our Slippery Barrister one can imagine would attack anybody if they didn’t back him up. I can’t imagine how out of control he would be if actually PM. Thinking of Palin here, what happened to people when they didn’t 100% agree with her or had differing solutions.
Turnbull is Australia’s Palin.
And Julie Bishop is proving to be more awful in the role of Shadow Treasurer than any before her. Turnbull if it wasn’t for the media covering up for him wouldn’t have any political credibility remaining so often has he been embarrassingly wrong.
Not only was Turnbull off the mark but the media should really be pulled up for effectively slandering Ken Henry and Glenn Stevens.
The only authority for any of the Libs claims is the unsubstantiated and catagorically refuted allegations of The Australian. Yesterday we had the ridiculous and pathetic situation where the Australian was quoting itself to try and give the aura of credibility to its fairy story.
What partyof “We got it wrong believing The Australian” do the Libs and their apologists fail to comprehend?
The Australian continues to confirm its status as Australia’s most trashy ‘newspaper’ possessing Australia’s most trashy writers and has the least amount of credibility.
One can imagine the Slipper Barrister writing for them one day.
“What part of…”
This thread is becoming increasingly boring, just one long whinge about a newspaper no-one reads except a few obsessives like you lot.
Chacun a son gout, Adam.
Unfortunately it seems that the news editors of various other sources happen to read it and republish their rumours verbatim creating an aura of truth around their claims. That is worrying. Everyone should be pulled up for making up and writing BS, The Australian is no exception.
Btw inflation hit 5%. Shock horror? No, the RBA predicted they would peak at 5% by the end of this year and then fall back into the target range.
You might think The Australian is “a newspaper no-one reads except a few obsessives like you lot’. If that’s all it amounted to then why is it that every talk radio show and the other major newspapers took up the issue yesterday and again today? There’s a lot more at stake than you might realise.
Except all the other MSM has picked up their story…
Australia’s neoconservatives like their American cousins are very like cockroaches just spayed with morteine. Running and jumping around hither and tither but about to fittingly drown in their own ideological filth. They are at present scurrying around in the murdoch media and the back rooms of the Liberal party.
No lie, no misrepresentation and no fabrication is too big or too small for them. The poison is being sucked in, they are doomed, but hope to destroy as much as they can on the way down.
Just witness the Murdoch media and the Liberal party during a time of economic crisis trying to undermine the head of RBA and Treasury solely for the purpose of political gain. How crass, how low and how shameful can any media outlet or Opposition leader get than this. Turnbull is indeed only ever concerned about one thing.
The shameless Turnbull with slippery back room barrister talk is for Turnbull alone, and the rest of Australia can go…
TP, the amount of imagery in that post is mind-bending.
I need a drink and it’s only midday.
The Liberals think this sort of stuff impresses people? Surely the only people impressed would be other ethically-vacuous Liberals.
It is more about Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swann, rather than the newspaper. This has been on the agenda for a while now. And it is something we have to get right.
We do not want people to dump shares and loans from companyies and move money to term deposits of the banks and then to move them back, that would be poor policy.
So should Rudd and Swann had taken the time to speak with the Reserve Bank Governor, who said he was raising this dislocation of funds with treasury last week, they probably should have. It is a big enough issue to get it right first time
Should they have perceived that there will be a problems with people owning bonds in other financiers who are not covered by the gaurantee …. yes they should have.
Is it a big issue, people were moving millions of dollar from one place to another. (ie loan from investors to company suddenly became loan from investors to bank to company) It could probably been managed better.
It is more about Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swann, rather than the newspaper. This has been on the agenda for a while now. And it is something we have to get right.
We do not want people to dump shares and loans from companyies and move money to term deposits of the banks and then to move them back, that would be poor policy.
So should Rudd and Swann had taken the time to speak with the Reserve Bank Governor, who said he was raising this dislocation of funds with treasury last week, they probably should have. It is a big enough issue to get it right first time
Should they have perceived that there will be a problems with people owning bonds in other financiers who are not covered by the gaurantee …. yes they should have.
Is it a big issue, people were moving millions of dollar from one place to another. (ie loan from investors to company suddenly became loan from investors to bank to company) It could probably been managed better.
Ken Henry just blew Turnball and Bishop out of the water!
Will Malcolm now apologise for defaming the man?
I won’t hold my breath waiting!
I really really hope those in the PS who kept their dirt files on the howard gvt
post them now
The attacks on the integrity of the PS have continued on from howies regime
now is the time to Fightback
and end the fibs charade.
However, the Libs still have a few moles in the Public Service – remember the leak to Oakes of the Fuel Watch stuff?
No, it’s about an unsourced allegation being made by a newspaper against the Secretary of the Treasury, and the Libs running with it
Do you really think anyone with less than a million in the bank will care less about this? They’re arguing about process which is about as interesting as watching paint dry for the average person.
It’s about Turnball making an ass of himself defaming an experienced public servant, and News Ltd/the ABC once again dancing to the Liberals tune.
Not forgetting it was the Liberals that appointed him Secretary of the Treasury in the first place
Dario: good point, I’d forgotten that!
QT later this afternoon should be a hoot!
Hmm so Henrygate is now off the front page of The Australian website. That was quick.
Oz 316 – I just went looking for it. I think that’s their way of saying “oops”.
Nice to watch another Liberal stunt blowing up in Turnball’s face
LMFAO
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24535281-601,00.html
What the hell? Aren’t they just digging themselves into a deeper hole.
Those ‘questions’ are obviously coming from the Liberals. Do they have any jurisdiction to ‘take action’ against him? I think they’re confused. Surely they should be going after the Government not their own public service appointees?
Sounds like Bill Leak might be ok. Good to hear.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bill-leak-conscious-and-talking/2008/10/22/1224351312246.html
When the Murdoch Howard-sycophants latched onto the fact that Rudd was at a meeting with Burke they behaved like it was Christmas. They were gleeful in the extreme and continued to bash the story over and over. To them it was the end of Rudd and they said just as much in their headlines and stories.
It was extraordinary for the fact that it was obvious that they were happy to find and try and use a story to bring down someone a threat to Howard. It was obvious that it wasn’t the story that was getting them going but that they had found something with which to protect Howard.
But it had no effect, nobody cared, it wasn’t relevant to anybody. Their indignation was palpable and even a year later you sometimes see a wistful mention of it. How dare the Australian people not be outraged that Rudd had a meeting with Burke!
These people live in an alternate reality where politics and government is nothing about policies for the good of the country and is all about keeping the Liberals in power.
If these people happened on some data that would both simultaneously destroy the country and Rudd would they hold back? I don’t think so. These people are so buried in their alternate reality that destroying the country would just be part of the game. Better to have a Liberal government over a 3rd world country than a Labor government over a prosperous country.
Not all of them are like this but many of them are and the murdoch leaders seem to exercise no quality, ethics or morality control.
The media is an intrinsic party of politics and democracy and should be no more excluded from examination and criticism than political parties are. Nor should we lay down and ‘take it’ just because it happens all the time and we believe nothing will change so we are fed up with it.
In fact I believe there should be criticism strong and loud when media start being partisan or dealing in half truths for the same reason we do it with politicians, to try and at least make them a little self conscious before they go out and act. And even if it has little effect on them it will at least help raise the issue in the public eye. It is just as good for the public to be aware that say a certain paper is a Liberal supporter than for that paper to change its ways as it has the same effect.
The problem with media criticism is there is not enough of it or is it wide spread enough. If we expect high standards from our pollies we should also expect it from the purveyors of the message and analysis.
Turnbull’s claim earlier this year that Treasury had nominated an $18-a-week increase to the minimum wage in the government’s submission to the Fair Pay Commission was revealed by Ken Henry to be completely invented.
(Clearly Malcolm’s not big enough to let this humiliation go …)
OZ@320
They are just trying to divert attention away from the heat Turnip is now copping lol
“Meanwhile, the Government has used its numbers in the House of Representatives to pass a motion calling on Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull to apologise to Dr Henry.
Leader of the House Anthony Albanese says Mr Turnbull acted recklessly and dangerously when he asked if Dr Henry would be sacked if it was revealed he had misled the Government.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2397904.htm?section=justin
The Liberals should go back to talking about Industrial Relations. On that front they know they are right! LOL.
TP, did the North Korean Press Agency give you any help with that one?
Haha now the media has moved on to inflation and the ABC never once mentioned Henry’s “grilling” despite dedicating substantial portions of the news, the 7:30 and Lateline to it last night. Poor show.
this comment was in the ABC blog, its pithy and to the point lol.
Yes, the corporation that owns the responsible newspaper should change its name from News Limited to Limited News.
If you can’t shake a decent news story, make one, fake one, bake one or muckrake one.
No 326
LOL. Always knew TP was a closet commie.
No 324
I don’t see how it is dangerous and reckless to demand the resignation of a public servant if they mislead the government. Albanese’s hyperventilation is as equally absurd.
It is dangerous, reckless and stupid to ask for the resignation of the head of a department because you have a ‘gut-instinct’ or because a newspaper headline has some rumours.
Probably why the Liberal Party is still denying that they did indeed demand for his resignation.
Oz @ 320
“Those ‘questions’ are obviously coming from the Liberals. Do they have any jurisdiction to ‘take action’ against him? I think they’re confused. Surely they should be going after the Government not their own public service appointees?”
Yes. The Senate can sanction witnesses who do not provide evidence as required if it is determined to be contemptuous. They can also call witness the Bar of the Senate (essentially allowing them to be questioned by the entire Senate).
Ah fair enough. Dangerous tactic I think. No one wants to get the public service, especially the Treasury in the current context, against them.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24535555-601,00.html
Oh, is that so Mr Swan. Didn’t you say the following in 2006 in opposition and also as Treasurer?
http://www.swanmp.org/swanmp/2006/11/statement_on_mo.html
Oh dear Mr Swan, you’re a hypocrite.
No 331
Oz, that’s the point, nothing has been proven. All Turnbull asked was if it was discovered that Henry had misled the government, would the Prime Minister seek his resignation. That is neither reckless or dangerous which negatives the bilious torrent of abuse coming from the government.
Generic Person has this rather irritating habit of forgetting that between 2006 and 2008, indeed between the start of 2008 and now, there’s been quite significant turmoil in the global financial markets.
Is inflation at 5% a problem? Well in most other cases it would be. But the fact that the RBA thinks it’s peaked and will decline during 2009 and the fact that we have slightly bigger problems to worry about mean priorities change. Which would you rather have? Relatively high inflation or recession? Some of our friends already have both. See New Zealand.
I disagree. Undermining the Treasury Department and the RBA, in the current context, on a whim was a pathetic attempt to score a point. It failed comprehensively.
Turnbull may as well have asked if the head of the Department of Health misled the government, would they have been sacked. There was no evidence they did so and there is no evidence Ken Henry did so. So why even bring it up?
No 336
Oz, bar the collapse of some minor investment funds, the Australian market has been barely effected by the turmoil in the United States and Europe, precisely because of the prudent regulation implemented by Costello and dubbed by Rudd to be “the best in the world”. Certainly with respect to its effect on Australia, the PM has overhyped the financial crisis, especially when he refers to it as something akin to a national security crisis.
The Liberals brought Australia the dirty double – “stagflation” – in the early 1980s. Courtesy of Treasurer John Howard.
Is GP Turnbulls ideas man ?
If so, Truffles is stuffed.
No 337
Oz, the question was warranted given the report in The Australian. Nonetheless, arguing the finer points of “who said what” is rather inconsequential to average Australians – I think we can all agree.
GP, what have you been smoking? The AllOrds are down nearly 40% in a year. Superannuation has taken massive hits. Barely affected??? What’s the crazy icon on this board?
Oz, the last time Treasury officials were called to the Bar of the Senate was in 1975 during the Khemlani Loans Affair. I figure that in comparison to that ’scandal’ this is peanuts.
#342
yes Dario, but apart from that everything is hunky dory. Obviously.
No 339
And under the Liberals between 1996 and 2007, Australia had an age of prosperity with the desirable trifecta of low unemployment, low inflation and low interest rates.
But of course Cuppa, you have a selective memory.
You’re one to talk given your rubbish at #338
Yes GP, but the fact the the Australian people still rejected the Howard Government (and in fact Howard himself) has obviously left you distinctly bitter.
No 342
The pertinent point Dario, is that in the midst of that downturn, none of our banks have collapsed and there is a pretty reasonable likelihood that the market will recover. The texture of the crisis is substantially different in the United States where people are losing their homes left right and centre, banks are collapsing and the market is totally engulfed by catastrophe. Again, I would contend that the Australian situation is nothing like what is happening overseas.
No 347
Yes, bitterness is a natural response. After all, its biggest exponent is one shameful former PM, Paul Keating.
The OO quotes Henry as saying:
“Were reservations expressed? No,” Dr Henry said.
“We noted there would be matters of detail to be sorted out in the implementation of the package, we did not express reservations.”
“I’m surprised that people would imagine that things could possibly be otherwise in announcing a package of this size that it could be implemented without matters of detail, having subsequent to the announcement, having to be sorted out.”
All sounds like a pretty reasonable and rational way to go and pretty much states the obvious about a process needed to deal with something this big.
The Fibs are running around squawking like headless chooks trying to score silly political points AND trying to undermine apparently reasonable people who actually have the responsibility to try and manage the Economy as best they can through this crap. This has to put paid to any of the garbage that Truffles has come out with about bipartisanship. If they are going to quibble in such a silly fashion at a time like this then the Fibs really do have to reassess their leadership team.
They really dont seem to actually have one at moment, unless you count the people happy to be led around by the OO journos publishing unfounded inflammatory piffle.
did I miss anything in QT today? the other half is home watching NSW v SA cricket on Fox so I missed it.
No 346
http://www.abnnewswire.net/press/en/57094/RBA_Governor_Glenn_Stevens_Delivers_Speech_To_Institute_Of_Company_Directors_.html
NSW Nationals leader Andrew Stoner says he remains furious at MP Alby Schultz for campaigning against the Nationals ahead of Saturday’s Port Macquarie by-election.
“If I had my way, I’d march him out at dawn, put a blindfold on him and shoot him,” he said.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2398328.htm
GP @ 338 “the Australian market has been barely effected by the turmoil in the United States and Europe”
GP @ 348 “the Australian situation is nothing like what is happening overseas”
In the space of ten comments, an absolute statement has been recast as a relational one. Good work!
No, the pertinent point GP is that you said Australia had been barely affected. You are either blind or incredibly ignorant. Just try telling your little story to a soon to be self-funded retiree, and see what response you get.
I wouldn’t argue with that, but that is not what you said. I would suggest admitting your comment was wrong rather than continuing to dig a bigger hole for yourself.
No 350
imacca, the ALP was just as prone to feigned indignation during its period in opposition. It is the nature of opposition.
No 354
I am neither blind nor ignorant Dario and I resent your pathetic ad hominem. Australia has been barely affected compared to the situation in the United States and Europe. It really is as simple as that.
As for self-funded retirees, it has to be expected that a downturn will occur after years of record growth. That said, I’m not under the pretension that all is good for them. But our markets have a much higher capacity to recover by virtue of the fact that all of our major financial institutions are still standing with sufficient profitability.
Not sure what you would call the politacal system in N Korea. Howard’s nirvana? They wont let me back in.
See my comment at No 352.
Is this blog suddenly the Generic Person show?
The only pathetic thing is your attitude to what has happened to the Australian markets in the last year. Perhaps ignorance is too polite a description.
Again that does not mean we have been ‘barely affected’. Ignorance is bliss for you I suppose.
Maybe so GP @ 355, but at the moment its the Fibs making asses of themselves at a time when we have the biggest economic crisis since the 30’s underway. Its also probably the worst thing that they could do in terms of trying to preserve or actually get back their traditional “Better Economic Manager” status with the electorate and the NEED that to have any hope of returning to government any time in the next millennium.
Turnbull and Bishop are currently showing that under pressure they cant take it and will resort to counterproductive flailing around just to be noticed. Remember, a lot of the damage this crisis is causing is caused by panic, fear and lack of confidence. The Fibs are in some ways feeding that (but maybe not much as i wonder if anyone does take them seriously at the moment given the polls??).
By their actions shall ye know them, and yea they are silly buggers.
No 361
With terms like “light years” and “night and day” being used to highlight the magnitude of difference between our circumstances and those of the USA and Europe, “barely affected” is a perfectly apt description.
No 362
imacca, Turnbull has been talking about intervening in mortgage securities, guaranteeing bank deposits and increasing pensions all the while being attacked by the government as being economically irresponsible. Yet, in the next breath, the government adopts what Turnbull was just arguing under the guise of “leadership”.
Rubbish.
If you truly believe that, then how do you reconcile it with the Swan’s hyperventilation over the “inflation genie” being out of the bottle?
Because talking up the threat of inflation in no creates inflation. Where as in a crisis of global economic confidence talking down the economy can and does have serious negative impacts.
Oz… what are inflationary expectations?
Oz, for your point to get through you’re expecting the Liberals to understand economics, and more importantly, the psychology of economics. A big ask when their only interest is political gamesmanship.
No 366
That’s a bit rich. Swan has been talking down the economy ever since he came to office.
dovif @ 307 -
We do not want people to dump shares and loans from companyies and move money to term deposits of the banks and then to move them back, that would be poor policy.
Why not? It’s their money and they are entitled to do with it what they will. If the sharemarket is not performing to their satisfaction why shouldn’t they move their money into banks, or for that matter, under their mattresses.
The current squabble started with Challenger freezing investors’ funds after a run on deposits supposedly caused by the Government’s bank guarantee. The problem with this is that Challenger, and other similar investment funds, did the very same thing a few weeks ago, long before the guarantee was even mooted by the Government.
The reason? They are high risk and in the current financial climate the risk now exceeds the rate of return, high though it is – upward of 15% I believe. Why should a government water down protection on bank transactions to prop up high risk investments elsewhere? Will it guarantee my very high risk investment on a ‘certainty’ in the Cup?
People have an expectation that bank transactions are safe. Indeed, the economy would grind to a halt if they didn’t, as we’ve just witnessed. Most people would have assumed, incorrectly, that bank deposits already were Government guaranteed. So few would quibble now that they are. But how many getting a minuscule 1-2% on their life savings in banks would agree with their taxes being used to prop up high risk/high return investments in other institutions? Not me, for a start!
To be fair I must agree with GP that Swan did talk up the inflation threat earlier in the year. However that was before the full extent of the crisis became apparent in the past month. They are not doing so now.
Since Lehman’s collapse Swan and Rudd have been quite carefull in their language. Even Xenephon and Fielding have dropped the political posturing in the past month. It is time Turnbull did the same. The alarmist talk is dangerous because as we all know, in economics pessimism can be a self fulfilling prophecy. This is not just a political opinion – several groups, notably the Australain Bankers association, have criticised coalition statements in recent weeks as beign “unhelpful”. Gerry Harvey of Harvey and Norman made some similar comments recently. Save it for the election campaign Malcom.
Surely no-one is denying Swan talked up inflation but equally nor can anyone deny that the circumstances have radically changed. Hence the government’s and Reserve Bank’s change in emphasis. Why is that so hard to grasp?
“Save it for the election campaign Malcom.” @371 is probably one of the most succinct and above all relevant pieces of advice for Turnbull that i have seen to date.
Reckon he’ll pick up on it though??
Was talking to a friend at work today who think that the Libs would be doing better at the moment (or at least not as badly) with Nelson at the helm as he comes across as much more reasonable that Turnbull.
Yet another day wasted by the Opposition. Do the people they need to get to vote for them understand or care about the obscure points they are trying to make.
Do they care about people with $100,000 to deposit in banks? Do they care if deposits over a Milllion bucks attract a fee? Not on your nelly.
They care about interest rates, they care about “Chrissy Presents”. Turnbull should be laying the groundwork for an attack on the unemployment rate, which will rise in about 6 months.
This stuff is dumb politics. The next Newspoll will be a shocker and Turnbull will have to get back to the main game or get shafted.
Gerry Harvey offering us an objective assessment of the broad economic consequences of a drop in consumer confidence!
No 373
Turnbull is doing much better than Nelson. No doubt about it.
‘Cept he keeps firing blanks. (His failed attack on Ken Henry being the latest.)
He better be careful he doesn’t lose his “charm” coz that’s his only “strength” at the moment.
Yep too true, Nelson was slowly getting a better TPP number for the Liberals, Turnbull has managed to turn this around. Good job Turnbull.
GP – there’s around an 85% probability that Turnbull has delivered the same or worse TPP score than Nelsons last week of polling results according my Pollytrack series. The Coalition Primary vote is also back where it was before Nelson was replaced to boot.
The Turnbull result – improvement in the metrics that don’t matter, likely reduction in the metrics that do.
Things are livening up between the conservationists and forestry workers down in Tassie. Have a look at this video. This is something you might expect to see somewhere else, not Australia.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.showvids&friendID=218436968&n=218436968&MyToken=2b8362f1-07e2-4ac3-bef1-5918b4242916
And for anyone out there who doesn’t believe in UFO’s, then it is worth having a look at this clip from Turkey. It should surely change a few minds.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24535823-5005961,00.html
There should be a few people heading for the fall-out shelters after this.
[After repeated questioning from Senator Helen Coonan, Dr Henry said public interest demanded he should reveal the details of the advice given to Federal Cabinet.
"Whilst I would normally never entertain questions such as this one, and in my 24 years of appearances before committees never have, I think on this occasion there probably is a public interest in my confirming that in respect of advice that was tendered to the Government and that supported the decision that it took on Sunday October 12, Mr Stevens [RBA governor Glenn Stevens] and I were of one mind,” he said.
Dr Henry said he spoke with RBA head Glenn Stevens on numerous occasions before the recommendation was put to Government.
“We have been talking about these issues at least on a daily basis for several weeks,” he said.
Treasury had meetings with the Budget committee on the weekend before the Government’s announcement after it came to the conclusion along with other regulators it was time to act, Dr Henry said.
“We, the Treasury, the RBA and APRA came to the view that it was time to act and act decisively and that was our collective view and we informed the Government of that,” he said. ]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2397904.htm?section=justin
Well, I looked in vain for any reference in The Australian to Ken Henry’s hours of testimony before a Senate committee specifically refuting the story from yesterday.
Clearly, that story was made up, or at least grossly misinformed. Whoever is feeding Turnbull and the hacks at News Ltd. this information is way out of the loop. a cleaner at Treasury? Someone who does the office shredding? A disgruntled big noter who believes he or she has been overlooked for promotion? Or just a remnant of the Howard loving minority? Whopever this person is they have caused Turnbull no end of grief, on any objective basis.
Yet, the Libs obviously believe they are on a winner here. It’s a classic case of a deluded mob finally abandoning reality and believing in their own publicity. The fact that this non (or should I say “patently untrue”?) story appeared in print – in one of the most egregious rags ever to grace ther Fourth Estate – somehow has convinced the Libs that it has a reality, simply because of its appearance. No matter that it has now been denied by the Treasurer (but you’d expect that), the Governor of the Reserve Bank, and the Head of the Treasury in unequivocal terms, right down to the dots on the i’s and the crosses on the t’s (as the questions became more and more pointed, detailed and exquisitely, even microscopically worded in the Senate). Somehow or other the story survives, most likely on the “where there’s smoke there’s fire” principle. It can be denied and denied and denied, yet won’t lie down. It can be refuted and nullified yet organizations like the ABC give it the “equal weight” treatment, as in, “An unsourced story in The Suatralian says this. The story is totally and categorically denied by the parties allegedly involved. But, in the interests of balance, we present the other side of the story with equal weight, equal time and equal gravitas.”
What’s the point of them doing this? I don’t know. It can’t be doing them any good (”them” being either the ABC or the Opposition). Calling for the resignation of Henry is just plain dumb, stupid, totally contrary to good sense, damaging to the brand. I can see they’re upset that Henry seems to be doing his job – serving the government of the day – but this just seems to have stung them into some kind of jealous fit, more typical of a jilted boyfriend than a professional political party. Didn’t Ken go out with them once? Wasn’t he their lover before the new guy came around? It’s as clear-cut a case of “Hell hath no fury…” as I’ve ever seen. A disgrace to politics.
As are they.
scorpio @ 381
A good example of how equanimity and even-handed, diplomatic language can lead to productive negotiations!
(Even if the forest didn’t have a say.)
After all the just totally wrong statements in the media such as this one in the Oz, I wonder just what are the chances of some decency rearing its head and a bit of “mea culpa” being expressed by these various organs of public information.
At least this article did include this which was still contradictory.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24533548-16741,00.html
If the proper corrections and apologies were offered I wonder just what the next Newspoll figures would be. I suspect they will all just keep their head down and hope it blows over quickly without too much damage being done. The MSM are not doing the people of this country any favours at the moment and should be soundly and widely condemned for this latest effort.
Inner Westie,
A couple of those thugs seemed to be “ambidextrous” with their sledge hammers.
I suspect that a few of them play “golf” in their spare time. Some nice smooth swings in evidence there.
So is George Brandis SC, of Rodent fame, correct when he says it is Liberal policy to limit bank guarantees to $100,000?
He was sure it was this morning on ABC 612 Brissy “Inside Canberra”.
The Fibs are on the verge of imploding.
One for the mathematicians
Benoît Mandelbrot & Nassim Nicholas Taleb on the credit crisis.
Audio file from Newshour
http://www-tc.pbs.org/newshour/rss/media/2008/10/21/20081021_solman.mp3
Makes me want to go out and buy gold.
Off topic but interesting. Looks as though wasting money comes easy to the GOP. A polar bear skin coat may have done the job better.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24536005-5005961,00.html
Yeay, the Governor Palin re-election campaign charity.
Don’t you just love them.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2397904.htm?section=justin
If that’s a stunt, then I don’t know what you would call what the Libs have been doing for the past three days.
Jim Bendfeldt:????
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2397904.htm?section=justin
Talking about those Commies the USA Communists are saying ‘I told you so’
Marx was right – LoL
http://www.cpusa.org/
scorpio,
Yes indeed! An indispensable addition to the Gunns match play squad.*
A number of them would also be a marvellous addition to the Gunns debating and public speaking team.
(But seriously, I work with a number of Europeans who from time to time ask me to explain an idiomatic Australian word or phrase. I might send them the link!)
* Assuming this venerable company is their employer.
Hmm, now let’s see. It is Liberal Party policy to guarantee deposits upto $100,000. It is Labor policy to charge a fee to guarantee security on deposits over $1m.
Julie Bishop, is criticizing the Labor policy by impying that people could make two deposits, for e.g. one of $900,000 and another of $100,000, to avoid paying any fees.
Hello, could somebody tell Julie that with her policy any number of deposits can also be made to guarantee their security.
Are the Liberals fair dinkum in presenting this bird brain as the alternative treasurer of Australia???
I don’t think the Libs know what they have been doing for the past 3 days. In fact they have been woefull for the past year.
They have wasted almost half a term in Opposition, they should have kept quiet, developed policy and let the Govt. make mistakes.
Beazley showed them what not to do, they are just too dumb to see the truth.
Inner Westie,
They might think that they come down from those “flying objects” that I linked to before. The language seemed a bit “out of this world”.
If we can’t understand it, I’m sure your friends won’t. For some reason, those jokers seemed a little upset.
The MSM bank on their being no consequence for them so they can invent stories then lay low and when it comes election time invent and misinform as much as they like throwing caution to the wind, hoping their side wins with consequent rewards from the new Liberal government such as maybe $1 bn in advertising.
Time for consequences to be devised. Maybe a whack over the knuckles, a few days in the stocks for the editor in chief, rotten tomatoes and all. Full front page apology and retractions etc. Public humiliation naming and shaming of offending journalists, editor, paper and so on.
ruawake @ 397,
Shsssshh. That’s what I thought straight after the election but had no intention of letting them in on it.
It’s much more fun this way.
Julie Bishop doesn’t know that the ATO already knows what deposits you have, well they know the interest you make from your various deposits so they must.
How good are this mob making Kim Beazley look as an opposition leader?
Their is no doubt, proven by polls and election results that labor are better in government and opposition than liberal. Read and weep liberal supporters.
Talcum on 7:30 rpt
red kerry surgically tearing him a new one
and about time too
Well, GP certainly shut up after Possum’s posting. You’d think the Rainmaker would learn to do the same, but noooo. Ego bigger than any amount of common sense.
Turnball is writing his epitaph on the 7.30 Report. He is gone. Poor Bugger.
“Talking about those Commies the USA Communists are saying ‘I told you so’
Marx was right – LoL” – WELL DERR!
oh and being 3hrs behind sucks balls
Why would he go on the 7.30 Report now. There is no way he could handle Kerry on this. These guys must be addicted to exposure.
Turnbull is the masochist in the sado-masochist relationship
This has to be one of the best interview done by Red Kerry for a long long time. Bully is sinking deeper and deeper in his own quick sand.
I think there is a lesson here about playing with matches.
talcum is worse than I thought.
The guy truly is a lightweight.
wtf ‘unscramble the omelette’
Malcolm B. Bear has just unscrambled the omlette all over his face.
Geez Turnbull was woeful on 7:30 Report.
Kerry slaughtered him
No 380
It’s been a short time since his ascension to the leadership. Furthermore, the Government has just dealt billions in pork. So, in those circumstances he’s doing quite well with a 55% approval rating.
Watch and see just how quickly he turns that into 5.5%.
Nah, ruawake. He’s self serving, egotistical, grand standing and utterly thoughtless for the good of the country, and I’ve got to say, my opinion of him has plummeted. Wasn’t high for starters, I concede, but I despise someone who puts their own grand standing ahead of the needs of everyone else. He was just about incoherent on the 7.30 interview. More “Well, well Kerry”s than you could poke a stick at.
GP
Ha HA wait for the Poll that matters, Newspoll “we own it”. PPM less than 20% I am predicting Nelson levels real soon.
The guy is a twit, surely you agree?
Nelson might have very well been right when he said that he would be leading the Libs into the next election in 2010.
Turnbull’s approval rating of 55% is his only asset and something he should be protecting.
This current exercise is akin to spitting into a fan.
Sigh, GP @ 414. You’re not Tony Abbott, by any strange quirk of fate? “His ascension to the leadership”? You really have missed your calling, as I literally laughed so much, the entire household enquired what was so funny. Then the other human laughed as well. BTW, did you notice Possum’s last posting?
Was anybody really paying much attention? Who knows, the public may have heard the first negative headline against the government and turned off to the rest.
Brenda and Turnbull, back to back worst opposition leaders in the past 25 years IMHO.
Have been trying to find the article that Alan Ramsey wrote about Ken Henry and the ‘blue’ with Howard and Costello. It was about the speech Henry gave to his Dept. virtually telling them to be aware that there would be a great and useless spendathon by the Libs.
Can anyone point me to it please.
Samantha Maiden’s off her medication again.
Read this contradictory nonsense & weep.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24535281-601,00.html
If Talcun is the latest great hope of the fibs they will need all the help they can get from granddaddy rupert and the scum at limited noos.
tip and brenda will be laughing their heads off at tonights dismal performance with kerry. talcum is proving he can be too smart by half.
The fibs firing the bullets in the senate enquiry today also need media attention to explain their conduct. Very little will come of course.
TP @ 421, I would suggest that you have a look at Possum’s pollytrack series, and as I keep noting from time to time, no matter the woeful performance of MSM reporting, the polls indicate better support for Labor than at the election.
One thing I do know is tyhat if Kerry Packer was Chairman of News Ltd, then heads would have already rolled.
Uncle Rupert, what’s the hold-up. You can’t let this sort of thing go on for any longer, can you?
BH @423. If you perhaps went back through the archives. Or do you have any other clues?
Medical attention more like it!
Don’t you just love them.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24536225-2702,00.html
News Limited has no standards except promote the Liberal party at all costs. That Maiden article appears to be an example of them refusing to face the truth that they and Turnbull were terribly wrong. They should be apologising to these people not misinforming all over again.
I think Ms Maiden is incorrect, it was The Australian that was W-R-O-N-G plus she forgot the !
Can somebody please tell me why we are worrying “protecting” or “guaranteeing” the mortgage and trust accounts that are outside the APRA supervision. These are investment accounts, not your ordinary deposit accounts. The former is where you want to make as much money as you can therefore take your own risks. The later is for safe keeping where the institutions are your custodian minding your money.
I dont get it. The Libs are barking up the wrong tree and somebody should tell them.
Thanks HSO – will have a go. I’m not all that literate with searching but will try. The speech is the one mentioned by Kev in QT yesterday. Henry lost his bonus after that.
Other half almost put his foot through the telly at Turnbull tonight but decided he wasn’t worth it. We were amazed at him virtually saying that Ken Henry was lying while at the same time trying to compliment him.
Why is it that commentators are not mentioning the difference with investing in mtge /cash management trusts. If you bail them out then surely you should be bailing out all those who have lost money on the share market. Turnbull must be losing heaps I think and is therefor screaming as loudly as possible.
Bring back Brendan – at least the fella had a bit of soul and Kev could have a cuppa tea with him. Skyte Noos makes a big deal of the fact that Kev invited Brendan over for a cuppa but so far hasn’t extended the invite to Turnbull – easy to see why.
{Mr Schultz also asked federal parliament to investigate Mr Stoner’s comment.
“Statements of this nature represent a threat against my person and therefore could be deemed an attempt to interfere with my ability to perform my duties as a member of parliament,” Mr Schultz told parliament.]
What a sook. This from a person who normally doesn’t shy away from any sort of personal attack no matter how flimsy.
Andrew Stoner is a walking time bomb if the fibs/nats get in in NSW.
TP @ 431
Yes you are right. And the ABC have given Limited Noos people free reign on what should be important TV and radio programing.
fran kelly certainly parrots whatever is on the front page of the australian each day.
About time she was moved on too.
423 I think this is the one you’re after.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/more-than-enough-dirt-under-his-fingernails/2007/04/06/1175366473874.html?page=fullpage
BTW, Labor mentioned this episode in parliament today, hinting at it being part reason for the Liberals current attack on Henrey.
The Libs are looking after “small business” you know the kind of guys Malcolm and Joe met walking down Willoughby Rd. looking for a restaurant the other day.
The guys who have a lazy million bucks in an investment account so they can pay their over-draft and payroll.
It is all about reverting to type. Hey Mal, we are hurting, those pensioners, breeders and kids wanting homes did OK. What about us?
Consider this: If Rupie acts and plucks Howie’s lickspittle from the pond, they’ll spread themselves all over Australia’s media landscape like a plague!
(Perhaps it’s safer for them to stay in Quarantine Control, where they think they have influence and so don’t get agitated.)
(Or tempted to breed.)
Shorter Malcom “Rainmaker” turnbull:
Maybe this explain the current News Ltd attack on the Rudd Government. ie Get them out and get them out quick before we go under. We need the $100m per week Govt advertising budget to stay afloat.
[the market’s view of the prospects of media companies is reflected in today’s share prices: Time Warner was last week down 50 per cent on the same week last year, Viacom down 59 per cent, NBC-Universal down 46 per cent,”" News Corp down 65 per cent”" and Disney down 34 per cent.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/markday/index.php/theaustralian/comments/doom_and_gloom_is_for_wimps
BH @ 434. Have a go at going to the paper in question and trawling back through their archives by month/year. I’ve got only a vague recollection of it, so am not of any great help.
The Rainmaker may just have shot himself in both feet tonight on the 7.30 Report. Not worth the telly going west.
Bushfire Bill, are you touting to be the Rainmaker’s PR in chief? You put it so elegantly and so, well, well,well, Kerry, kerboom, whoops, blast and damnation, just did the other foot.
438. Thanks – that’s the one. I remember reading it at the time and thought what a cluey bloke Ken Henry must be. How on earth he answered those rude, egotistical Opposition Senators in a civil manner was impressive. I wasted a few hours watching it and felt embarrassed that we have people like Abetz, Brandis and Coonan in our midst.
Remember how Howard talked about stamping out bullying in schools? Well this mob today were not just bullies, they were thugs.
How much for the Australian assets, I might be interested.
Watching Malcolm on the 7:30 report reminded me of his performance during the Republic debate when he was out debated by Sophie Mirrabella.
Malcome inproved as the Interview went on and too be fair I suspect Malcome isn’t completly wrong, while we know the Australian is pro Liberal but no Newspaper would on purpose so blantley make up a story that could see itsself denighed access to the halls of Treasury, the Reserve Bank and the PM’s office for three years or more.
I’m inclinde to think there have been some debate its quite possible that some changes have been made to the proposals to accommidate various concerns.
The point I’m making is within Government and in any business there are always more than one option considered and quite often people change view as time goes on, I think Ken Henry’s comments about wishing debate was more behind close doors confirms this.
Its a tricky debate for we the public will never get the full story unless the Government wants to be extremely open but even then there will be things that wont see the light of day and there is a very good reason for this.
You could be sitting at a table with lets say 10 people each will have a starting position, one may take a radical approach while someone else says lets be really cautious.
The debate proceeds untuil a position is agrred upon taken to the minister who then may accept the decision or may seek further advice until he/she is happy with the outcome which then becomes the Government policy.
Lets say the Minister chooses to take the cautious policy, but the media catch wind that a radical policy was considered, the media will report it as if the policy is the radical one.
This means the Government who has taken the cautious policy has too explain what the radical policy was! this in turn clouds the whole debate, the best way to deal with this is too say the radical one didn’t exist or was just an option but wasn’t considered.
Yes I know it sounds cynical and it doesn’t just apply to the top off Government but all Government departments follow these procedures as do our business community.
Some would call it being untrustworty but without this process Government would not be able to canvas as broader range of views as possible and this is why Governments appear to take there time in responding to reports.
I would say that no one is lying, and in all honesty everything that has been said is mostl likey true but as I say we will never know or at least until some writes a book or the cabinet papers are released in 30 years time.
BH… I watched it too and didn’t get that impression. All senators have the right to ask questions of witness appearing before estimates committees and the way they questioned officials was no lighter or harder than Labor did when they were in Opposition.
Dr Henry, of course, is well qualified to respond to vigorous questioning, otherwise he wouldn’t be in the position he is in.
BH 446 – Henry just destroyed Coonan and Abetz.. and the other (though I only saw most of the first 90 minutes, then jsut cam ein and out).
Coonan was up first, and you’d think she would have got her quesitons ready, but she flapped about like a broken down old seagull.
BUt the best bit was when Abetz rambled on and Henry responded “I’m sorry was there a question in that?”
449 ltep – you’re right I didn’t think they were too hard on him at all (and you’re right they SHOULD be hard on him) – see how they went at Keelty on Monday night (?). But after 5 minutes you knew they weren’t going to get any big scoop – and that is pretty much the whole point of Estimates.
Coonan and Albetz would have to be two of the most annoying senators I have ever seen.
Why Malcolm has Coonan ahead of Maris Paynes is beyond me.
You think Malcolm got where he is by talent or by promising the unworthy they would be rewarded?
Itep – Yes, they have the right to question but the downright rudeness and insinuations that Henry was lying were very obvious. I think mostly it was the smugness of the Libs that was so offputting.
Like Grog – I think Henry showed their weaknesses perfectly. He is a class act.
Crikey had a photo today of Henry with his hand on the side of his head. He had the two middle fingers separated in a ‘v’. The caption read ‘what Henry thought of Abetz’. It was very funny and very apt.
Robert Ray and John Falkner questioned incessantly but without as much rancour as today’s lot and a much of it was done by them with humour.
it’s a good pic BH – you can see it here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2397904.htm
This is what amazes me the most. The same stupid gits that are sprouting all this nonsense and doing all they can to undermine the financial system in Australia, are the same stupid gits who stand to loose substantial amounts of money in their superannuation funds and financial investments.
DOLTS.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/markday/index.php/theaustralian/comments/doom_and_gloom_is_for_wimps
Grog!! Politics being what it is!! I suspect Turnbull got where he is by promising the Unworthy or should that be the Unroadworthy! someone needs a Canery
Of course they are going to insinuate… they want to make their political point and will try to do so no matter what he says. They also have the right to state they don’t believe he’s being honest or fully frank if they want to. It’s up to Dr Henry to satisfy the public that he’s doing his job properly, after all we are paying his salary.
Of course Abetz had to once again try and drag up Dr Henry’s decision to take time off to look after the northern hairy-nosed wombat… which is gutter politics at its worst.
More silly questioning came from another senator during the last estimates who wanted to know whether Dr Henry had solar panels on his home. Why that is of any concern to the Senate is anyone’s guess.
I missed that bit. Didn’t think Abetz could fall any lower in my eyes… I was wrong.
Its pretty stupid. Firstly, objecting to someone having any time off of work is nonsense (I’m sure Treasury can handle just fine for a few weeks without him!). Secondly, objecting to someone using their free time to advocate for the protection of one of the most endangered animals on the planet (there being only 114 left in existence) is the sort of mean-spiritedness I’d have thought the Liberals would want to be avoiding.
On that note I should remind everyone that today is Wombat Day! Hats off to one of the greatest animals on the planet…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24531324-601,00.html
I cannot for the life of me work out what Turnbull is on about with his critisism of the insurance guarantee for funds over $1m.
Even my poor old mum was offered 8.5% for an interest bearing deposit with her Credit Union. $1m is sure to get more than that, probably 10%.
By my grade 10 maths, that represents a gain of $100k V a cost of $2,000. Now, either these characters are totally consumed by greed or they are totally stupid.
What in the blazes is the MSM in this country coming to. Are they stupid or do they have another agenda to pursue at any cost? Don’t bother to answer that. I think we know the answer already.
Abetz, shudder.
Gimmie a million, and I’ll gladly pay the $2000!
Itep, are you serious @ 458? Someone takes their annual leave to look after an endangered species, after working incredibly long hours in the service of the public, and they are attacked by the Coalition? I’m astounded. I’m gobsmacked. Nah. It’s about par for the course.
I thought I couldn’t think any worse of the opposition. Am going to be most interested in the next set of polls.
One of the best lines I heard come out of Question Time today was from the Prime Minister:
Touché!
scorpio @ 461. My vote is for stupid, mostly; with the added ingredients of obvious LNP cheerleading fro the O.O. and the ABC.
What amazes me is that posters here seem to be shocked that Coonan and Abetz have displayed an appalling lack of decency and integrity. Why the surprise?
Winston, They’re Liberals – behaving as expected.
Winston @ 467. I think it is more a sense of shock that the opposition have displayed such an appalling lack of regard for the nation.
Man threatens to jump from Parliament gallery
Now Malcolm, it’s not that bad. It may pay to have a quiet word with beyond blue!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/22/2398636.htm?section=justin
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24531394-5013871,00.html
They don’t set the bar very high in the Liberal Party these days.
Bishop has a point! Malcolm at least is appearing on the nightly news and newsie programs! Malcolm’s potential problem is his message could come off as opposition for opposition sake which will turn voters off.
If that happening! too a point, at the moment the Government is on the front foot but the storm clouds are gathering with JBMorgan predicting an Unemployment rate of 9% by 2010 (Source: Business Spectulator)
Turnbull is doing a better job than Nelson did and as a result the Government has needed to lift its game and to its credit thus far they have lifted.
HSO @ 469
You should join this group.
http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2008/10/07/
Arguable.
Anyway, Lateline today has a story that Challenger, who kicked off this whole theory that the government’s deposit guarantee started a run on some banks, was in financial trouble and actually blocked withdrawals weeks before the government even announced its deposit plan.
Winston
hardy har har,
though trawling through the comments section came across this politically incorrect gem
“Yes, save the whales. If you collect the whole set you can trade them in for really spiffy patio furniture.”
Eric Abetz is one of the nastier Liberal politicians in Canberra, and the sound of the man’s voice grates on me!
Turnball really should have him disendorsed from the Liberal Tasmanian Senate ticket, after today’s disgraceful performance in senate estimates!
Turnball is making Nelson look good in comparison!
Yeah, seriously. Anyone else putting money on a <20% PPM rating in Newspoll. What was Nelson’s highest?
He won’t go that low. The Lib faithful will still love him as he comes across as a toff.
All those with bank deposits over $1,000,000 will keep voting for Turnball – yep, he’s sticking up for the real battlers!
It is not how the Slippery Barrister appears to those paying close attention that matters but to the general public. Turnbull is indeed worse than Nelson but Nelson looked worse, engaging in petty popularism.
Dario – I would’ve thought so, but he managed to get 20%?! That means a decent chunk of Liberal supporters do not like him.
I can’t remember what Nelson’s PPM and 2PP polls were when all the leadership talk came to ahead, but I think it was 15-ish%? And the 2PP was the same as now.
What Turnbull doesn’t seem to understand is that the “great unwashed” – who decide the outcome of elections – are not the slightest bit interested in Senate hearings and technical discussions about who warned who about what. All they know – and want to know – is that Rudd has made their savings safe.
Turnbull had better hope they don’t start thinking he is criticising Rudd for doing so
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/10/22/meltdown-continues-at-the-oz-2/
The Turnbull LNP can be equated with the GW Bush Republicans of 2004 and the new low they descended (though it might not have been new to them) when they trashed the reputation of a Vietnam war hero, swift-boated him. Which was a pretty sickening low to descend to. And I guess we can add the McCain Republicans who are trying to swift boat Obama with domestic terrorism.
We have seen the Turnbull LNP method a few times now and it has been to trash the reputation of good and honest public servants of high quality in Ken Henry and Glen Stevens. Both of whom worked for the Howard Govt for many years, there is no question of them being partisan.
And they are aided and abetted by the Murdoch media who themselves trashed in a most despicable way the character of Glen Stevens on their front page, simply to help the LNP along in the polls.
If we thought the Howard Govt lacked ethics and morals of any kind (remember the Howard Govt manufacture parliamentary character assassination attempt on Justice Kirby) then I think we will find the Turnbull Opposition no different and probably even less descriminating in their choice of who to trash and, it appears they will try to malign anyone who disagrees with them.
Normally a Government or Opposition party would not (should not) be allowed to get away with mindlessly assassinating the characters of decent people and honest long serving officers, the media would step in and brutally castigate the opportunists for what they are.
Yet the standard of media and the corruption within our media has become so bad that rather than castigate the Turnbull Opposition some parts of the media are trying to stand up for them and assist in the continuing misinformation.
This means we cannot even trust our own media to be honest and to hold themselves or others to normal ethical and moral standards. They too have descended with the Liberal party into spitefulness.
I think that not only is the poor methods of the Turnbull Opposition that are an important issue but also the sudden decline in honesty and trustworthiness of our media that is also becoming a major issue that needs addressing.
The last great crash took some time to reach its bottom though we are taking measures this time around it still feels there is some way to go still. That is why it really is important for the Opposition and the murdoch and ABC media to give up the political games and focus on doing what is necessary to fight what comes.
The Dow Industrials hit a high of 386 in September, 1929. It did not get back to that level until November, 1954. At its worst level, the Dow dropped to 40.56 in July, 1932. That is a drop of 89%.
http://www.lowrisk.com/image/29crash.gif
“Sorry Dr Henry, but our story was right, r-i-g-h-t”
So, Shamahan on the attack! They have a document they claim was sent on the 17/10 from Stevens (RBA) to Henry (Treasury).
The deposit quarrentees were announced 12/10.
And wasnt the whole thrust of the current flap that the OO and Turnbull claimed that Stevens and Henry either did (or should have) advised the Govt on or before the 12/10 that there would be complications for some sections of the finance markets
because of he guarrentee, with the implication that either the Govt ignored such advice or Henry did not pass it on??
So, all document in the OO today shows is that by the 17/10 Stevens was raising concerns (as he is entitled to and should if he thinks there is something the Govt needs to know about to inform its decision making) and having input through the Treasury Secretary (which is the proper channel??).
Govt is now dealing with problem.
So, whats the relevance of this document thats made it to page one of the OO??
Or is the subtext here that the OO’s real, sneaky and slippery agenda is to push for the next Newspoll to be so bad that Turnbull gets the flick, and the Fibs draft Howard back into a safe seat and then back into the Fiberal Leadership!! Shamahans Time Warp!!!!!!
Oh, and do you reckon the AFP will be sniffing around a little for whoever leaked this?? Will Shamahan ever get a brief from Treasury again??
Don’t worry about News Ltd relying on government revenue, that’s a drop in the bucket. Its current closing share price is $7.00. A decade ago it was trading at $14.00 and at the heights of the dot com boom $28.00. Only problem is the current price includes a 2 for 1 share split. Therefore in real terms it has fallen from highs of $28.00 and $56.00 to the current $7.00 making it one of the worst performing stocks in the last decade.
Instead of poor reporting of politics, like the Liberal Party they had better reinvent themselves fast. They are a sinking ship!
Another sinking ship seriously in need of reinventing is the TAB. One mega rich director is off loading stock like scrambling for a life raft on the Titanic LOL. The ASX might want to ask why?
More embarrassment for the NSW Government. Such unbelievable incompetence. Not only is the overbudget $2.3 billion Epping-Chatswood line incapable of using modern trains due to steep internal gradients, it has now emerged that the railway is the noisiest in NSW after tests showed that it produced sounds which exceeded 90 decibels.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/23-billion-black-hole/2008/10/22/1224351351108.html
Shamahan, well there is a mental giant if we ever saw one in Lilliput.
The credibility of the RBA and Treasury against that of The Australian?
No contest.
Two are professional organisations that do their duty fearlessly, the other a hack voice for the a struggling Liberal party whose credibility slowly drips away as they add more slashes to their wrist. They ought to know that if you are going enter into a credibility fight you better have more than your opponent. There is no way in this world that The Australian can win a credibility battle with the Treasury or the RBA, especially given the fact that the present heads were there through the Howard/Costello years. People will just shake their heads.
It is a wonder these guys can even show their faces in public without feeling ashamed of themselves.
It is kind of surreal, watching The Australian destroy itself in slow motion. I wonder if Rupert Murdoch has warned they will be closed or sold off if the Liberal party don’t win the next election? You have to wonder if it is more than being sycophants that is driving them.
SNIP: Unproductive comment deleted – The Management.
re 489. News share price $14.00. $7.00 had share split not occured.
No 492, try reading some of your own.
imacca, where is the reference to the letter of 17/10 on The Australian site? I can’t seem to find it in the articles ascribed to Shanahan at the moment.
William, why is it that I have to re-log in every time I return to this site, especially given the complex password issued? Not easy for older eyes!
I don’t know, FS – it’s not happening to me. Is there some “remember password” box you haven’t ticked?
Stevens’ letter to Henry from 17/10 is here.
Thanks. I”ll check that out next time I have to log.
I’ve noticed it happens to me after a few days or so, normally clicking on the log in link shows the username/password with the remember me ticked and I just click on log in and it’s ok – must me the cookies expiring.
What am I missing here? This is what was said at the committee today.
Isn’t this all to do with this bit from Tuesday’s report in The Australian?
Here’s Shanahan’s response.
Isn’t the “written advice” to which Shanahan refers this document from October 17? Does anything said by Shanahan have any bearing at all on Henry’s statement that The Australian was wrong to report the RBA had “strongly voiced concerns” before October 12?
Currency Lad is always so refreshing.
http://thenewcurrencylad.blogspot.com/2008/10/boathouse-blowhard.html
No 499
Yes that does seem a bit ridiculous, unless the October 17 date is a misprint.
Your not missing anything William.
What is missing is any skerrick of integrity, journalistic or otherwise, on the part of Shanahan in having the unmitigated affrontery to attempt to deceive the public two days running on the same issue.
It seems the right-wing media across Australia has given up any pretense to credibility or honesty. They are quickly morphing into a Republican like campaign where any old lie to attack the enemy (non Liberal Party people) is fine and not dishonest or wrong.
Just wait until we get closer to the election, we will have a constant stream of outrageous lies and misinformation. One can only hope that if there is a further share market crash that it is concentrated on the print media and soon and these turkeys have to come to us begging for work.
Turnbull went ape last night on The 7.30 Report.
As many have predicted, that ego, that pompous inner git, the bragging know-all that inhabits Malcolm came to the fore.
The bank guarantee is not just a little rough around the edges, perhaps in need of a bit of tweaking here and there. It is a total failure, a scrambled egg which cannot be unscrambled, and the Australian economy is headed for ruination… according to The Rainmaker. Anything bad that now happens will have been predicted by Turnbull. You can hear the Turnbull Times newsletter to the mugs screeching, “I said things would go crook… and they have! I’m a genius and Rudd and Swan are incompetent fools. Only I, and I alone know what’s going on. Forget Ken Henry, Ken Stevens, Kevin Rudd, APRA, Wayne Swan, Treasury, the ANZ Bank, Westpac, NAB, the Commonwealth and the Economic Advisory Council. They’re all fools compared to me.” On the Demented Rants scale, last night’s outburst was on par with a missive from Bolt’s Blog.
Turnbull came to the leadership with the promise of geeing up the troops, shoving a rocket up his colleagues’ arses, taking the fight up to the government, making chutzpah the new stamp of conservatism. Last night was a new salvo in this campaign, the next step.
While a bit of energy is probably a good thing in politics, therein lies the rub… it’s politics not a courtroom, or a boardroom. The repartee and the glib answer might work in a testy legal cross-examination, or might serve to get the hesitating client to sign up for the ponzi scheme, but at this stage of the political cycle there’s no end point in sight. The election is two years away, the government is popular, the economic crisis is settling into people’s minds as something that can be handled (if uncomfortably), interest rates are falling… there’s no jury out to consider its verdict for a long time yet. The political process grinds slowly.
So why go to all this trouble? Simple: Turnbull is setting up his next scam. He already has Glenn Milne quoting his words from February, predicting everything that happened (at least in his own opinion). In a few months when a firm goes broke, or layoffs increase, or a abnk makes slightly less profit… whatever the consequence that befalls whoever it befalls… Turnbull, or one of his pals in the media will be there to quote last night’s words as prophecy.
Malcolm’s tactics are designed to put pressure on the mug, to make him feel like he must decide immediately, no dithering… sign up straightaway. Once the signature is on the dotted line, your Rainmaker moves onto the next victim. Turnbull is trying to run a boiler room set-up. “This offer cannot last! Ring NOW!”
So far, in the past week, Turnbull has fully supported the banking guarantee and has now declared it a failure. He claimed to Kerry O’Brien last night that both positions could be held perfectly consistently. He has both praised Ken Henry and called for his resignation. This is the equivalent of the Rainmaking scammer tipping every horse in the race. In six months’ time the only sure bet will be that Turnbull and his new chums in the media will pick whichever winning quote applies.
The OO and Turnbull are saboteurs, they are deliberately trying to undermine and sabotage the Australian Government,the RBA., the Treasury,the economy and all the Australian financial Institutions.
If Turnbull is so good at predictions, would he please do something useful with this power, like telling me what next Saturday’s Tattslotto numbers are.
4999 William. Not only are you not missing anything, you’re actually using the words said in Estimates, unlike Shanhan.
This article in the smh inferrs without any evidence whatsoever that the advice was passed on to the Government “before” October 12, and quotes two un-named “high level” sources. What the?
http://news.smh.com.au/national/rba-sounded-deposits-warning-report-20081023-56ik.html
So now it’s attack on all sides as a form of defense. News Ltd & the Libs, on the march. Batten down the hatches, man the lifeboats, head for the bunkers!
According to the blog of Paul krugman (Nobel laureate in economics) it looks like the combination of worldwide bailouts and bank guarantees is working, with credit markets starting to flow again:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/
I bet Krugman is kicking himself now that the mightly intellect Malcom Turnbull has spoken against the policy measures he has advocated to western governments.
So it looks like Rudd and Swan are in real trouble – all they have on their side of the bank guarantee debate is the word of the treasury secretary, actions that are consistent with governments throughout the OECD, evidence of their measures success from financial markets and a nobel prize winner advocating the sort of policy measures they adopted in world markets. Against them they have Turnbull’s opinion and the Oz. Oh no!
As I wrote yesterday! I reckon no one is lying! of course Glenn Stevens and Ken Henry would have considered the pros and cons of the deposit plan if they didn’t then they should both be fired.
All this letter shows is both men took part in a robust debate inwhich the Government came to a policy conclusion.
As I wrote yesterday both men and members of the PM’s personal office plus the boarder department of Treasury & Finance would have been considering all options.
To do anything less would be unprofessional! has Malcolm forgotten how Government works!
Mexicanbeemer
Quite right – as recently as a month ago there was no concensus on what to do about this. The policy has evolved very quickly. After Gordon Brown in England, we were one of the first countries in the world to introduce the measures which, as the links in my post 508 proved, have worked to stabilise world credit markets. Would Turnbull have prefered we adopt less effetive measures? Or maybe moved slower?
Malcolm seems to have forgetten sometimes in Politics you have to support a position that you may not agree with or is he now saying that is never the case! does he really want to go there!
The New Zealand Government is acting as world financial developments unfold and have just cut their interest rates by 1%. A quick phone call to Malcolm Turnbull a month or so ago and all their problems would have been solved. Not like here, where Rudd refuses to take any advice from the “oracle”, Turnbull.
http://news.smh.com.au/business/nz-interest-rates-cut-1-percentage-point-20081023-56l9.html
Looks like Howard was wrong about al-Qaeda backing Obama to win the Presidential election. It appears they prefer McCain.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/articles/2008/10/22/1224351327271.html
So now we know -
It seems the Libs do have an axe to grind with the RBA and Glen Stevens after all.
It’s all the fault of those ‘chaotic, shambolic’ interest rates rises last year.
Obviously, if Glen Steven had been blessed with foresight that almost no-one else on the planet had, there would have been no interest rate rises to torpedo the Libs return to Government last November. That might explain the bitterness we’ve witnessed over the last couple of days
It may be getting Don Randall hot under the collar, but somehow the thought of facing the current crisis with a Costello/Turnbull govt is … not, can’t bring myself to even contemplate it.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/23/2398956.htm?section=justin
That a relief. Seems that others here are just as confused as me regarding what Shamahans on about with this document he has dated at 17/10.
Now, my five year old little girl sometimes has trouble with her printing (but she’s learning fast!!!), and a 7 kind of looks like a 2 without the bottom bit, so maybe the fine jouro’s at the OO simply got a little mixed up with forming their numbers??
For a matter such as this where they have really put their own, their employers, and their hero’s credibility on the line (not to mention the risks to the source of the document, their informant) such actual, demonstrated incompetence is appalling.
In the days of AWA’s, my employer inserted a clause in the one they offered that you could be sacked for actions they deemed to be bringing the university into disrepute. Wonder if the journo’s at the OO are similarly vulnerable, or maybe they are on a Collective agreement and safe from that WorkChoices style crap?? they have certainly brought their employer into disrepute over this one, in the most public way possible.
Perhaps it could be explained if the coalition would reveal what advice it got from treasury or the RBA on the spending in its two previous budgets? After all, they are showing such a strong interest in transparency now.
Nice to see the Slippery Barrister got himself on the ABC radio again to do some more campaigning. The ABC doesn’t even bother with condoms anymore they have been so well used by the Liberal party. Prostitution radio, your ABC.
Self Obsessed Malcolm attempts to again try and win a victory over Henry is looking more like a vendetta each day. But Henry has some things Turnbull could never have, respect and credibility.
Slippery Malcolm is being lead by nose by the OO down a path that could turn nasty for him and get himself categorised as a vicious vindictive Malcolm. Turnbull would be well advised to not be lead around by any game plan the OO may developed for him, he only needs to look at what they did to Nelson.
The sequence of events on treasury/RBA advice and letters is laid out in the Financial Review today.
Nevertheless GP might enlighten us on the wisdom of the Liberal tactics of (a) attacking the integrity of a senior public servant whom they themselves appointed to his current position and trusted for six years, and (b) demanding that the Treasury release confidential advice to the government when they themselves never contemplated releasing such information when they were in government.
Socrates at number 516 wrote:
Not sure about their budgets, but Michelle Grattan in The Age, 13 November 2007 wrote:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/prime-minister-splurges-to-close-poll-gap/2007/11/12/1194766590319.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
But of course the economic toiler knew better …
The Age, 24 July 2007
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/No-need-for-election-spending-cap-govt/2007/07/24/1185043060836.html
Even the good old OO reported on a Treasury finding …
The Australian, 10 March 2008
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23347179-16741,00.html
520 – Adam
GP might also enlighten us on the wisdom of attacking a policy that has very wide spread support among the public. Doesn’t sound like very good politics to me.
Slippery Malcolm is revealing his true unflattering colours. Attack the integrity of those who show you are wrong, aka Howard govt. And he is allowed to get away with it because much of the media is intent on helping him rather than being repelled by him as they should be on this.
And again to quote that business executive form the AFR story ‘Turnbull seems to be the only person who wants Australia to go into a recession.’ You have to ask why did this executive get that sense of feeling from Turnbull?
“PM to attend G20 meeting at White House”
Meanwhile Kev is igroring the pompous git and getting on with the job of helping the world solve the financial crisis.(you know. that one Talcum says is all a stunt lol)
Expect big OO headline of Kevin 747 tomorrow seeing as their attack on Herry yesterday and Stevens today isn’t having the desired effect of mobs with torches outside Kevs place.
http://news.smh.com.au/national/pm-to-attend-g20-meeting-at-white-house-20081023-56kx.html
“The leaders will review progress being made to address the current financial crisis, advance a common understanding of its causes and in order to avoid a repetition, agree on a common set of principles for reform of the regulatory and institutional regimes for the world’s financial sectors.”
The politics of this is undoubtedly bad for Malcolm T. Relating this to politics as blood sport, he seems to be riding the hounds on this one, with the hounds all working for the OO.
They are baying after a fox that people outside the hunting club can see isn’t actually there. But the stupid woofers keep barking, charging along, and generally having a good run with the even more stupid hunters blindly charging over an increasingly more dangerous course trying to keep up with them and following their every twist and turn Remember, its rarely the dogs that get hurt in this kind of hunt, but sometimes the stupid “Sports-people” fall of and break their necks, and at the least wind up covered in mud and filthy at the end of it.
Summary of the bank guarantee debate so far
RUDD: We’re thinking of guaranteeing all deposits up to $20,000.
TURNBULL: I disagree. I think it should be at least $100,000.
RUDD; In the light of the deepening crisis, we’ve decided to guarantee ALL bank deposits
TURNBULL; Of course I agree. That was OUR policy.
TURNBULL: This new policy is causing financial dislocations. RUDD got it wrong.
TURNBULL: RUDD has completely cocked the whole thing up. You should have listened to me.
I don’t go near OO or newsltd.com. I get my news from SMH and on their top 10 most popular stories, Talcum Stevens & Henry don’t get a mention!
Even their ABC online seems to have given up on pushing the OO’s rubbish. Main story there is stock markets “global slide”
Talcum will become all the more hysterical now when he realises that no one is paying any attention to him. Expect more “red cordial” rantings and foaming at the mouth in QT as he becomes more and more desperate for attention lol..
GP, I’ve deleted two aimlessly abusive comments of yours in the past 24 hours. You’re back on Double Secret Probation.
I get my news from Pakistani taxi drivers.
So the Liberal line of the day is that this plan is a ‘deposit tax’ and it will ‘raise interest rates’.
That is in light of the fact that RBA Governor made the suggestion in the first place to charge $20,000 per $1 million.
So they were upset that the Government apparently didn’t listen to the RBA, and now that the Government is acting on that advice they’re upset as well?
But the Libs still have their friends on talkback radio! Both Alan Jones and Steve Price were trying to run some sort of scare campaign today.
That’s only talkback radio preaching to the converted. Who are their main listening demographic? Oldies … easily frightened … rednecks perhaps. The typical Liberal supporter.
Whew! That was relief!
Seems there’s a Treasury leak after all. So I won’t have to eat my hat.
The Libs are just upset that the public servants they thought were tame and on their side, have turned out to be reasonably ethical and are working for the government, not a party. So the Libs set out to “get” them.
I found it amazing that Turnbull called for the resignation of Ken Henry in the Parliament a couple of days ago, and last night denied it to a national television audience per the 7.30 Report. I notice he didn’t try to cite the weasel words he used when talking about Henry’s resignation in Parliament. I guess this would have just made his denial look trickier and too smarmy by half.
Turnbull has really jumped the shark this time with his ranting. Just about all pretence of “bi-partisanship” has disappeared. He’s covering all bets, every situation: win, lose or draw, the Rainmaker’s horse come’s in first… or at least that’s the plan.
The thing, though, with this type of scam, is that the mugs are supposed to think they’re special, that they’re the only ones being given the insider info by the scammer. How Turnbull expects this to work when his antics are displayed and written up in Australia’s only national daily newspaper, and on the national broadcaster, is beyond me. All the mugs can see all the tips the Rainmaker’s giving out as “dead certs.”
Maybe that’s why I was never any good at the Messiah business.
Haha Pyne almost wetting his pants in Parliament. And now Abbott trying to have kittens. Yet the biggest abusers of Parliament that I can remember was the Howard government.
A motion to allocate the leader of the Opposition 5 minutes to apologise to Henry and Stevens for comments he made about them.
There is something ironic about Abbott going ape over this he being the greatest offender of all when in the Howard government.
They should give Turnbull the opportunity to provide ANY documentary proof of his claims even under parliamentary priviledge. He’d be snookered.
At last good to hear from Bob Katter. The voice of reason and some history, but that won’t suit Slippery Malcolm. No votes in it.
A prime example of political journalists having too much time on their hands:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24539653-421,00.html
Itep @ 540:
I’m trying to see why the hairdresser was in tears. What a sook!
The MP was waiting for 10 minutes, then said “don’t worry about it” and left because she is on a tight schedule.
And it took two ‘reporters’ to ‘report’ this ’story’.
It really is Limited News isn’t it.
“ironic” TP?
You’re too kind.
I would have at least upgraded that to the word they’re told at priest school ‘begins with “hyp” (as in hypnosis) and ends with “cal” (as in Calvinism)’.
(It’s the first word seminarians are taught to deny or ignore.)
One of the idiot reporters forget to capitalise his surname.
“don’t worry about it” WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Amazing how much time has been wasted just to get to a debate on the original motion.
Amazing how much time we waste commenting on this blog
Blasphemy.
We have no lives
We have each other… :’(
This blog doesn’t run the country.
The member for Sturt reminds me of the whining rich kid in my year 12 history class. The only boy whose voice had not yet broken.
Govt by blog?
Agree zombie… the one who always got belted by the ‘cool kids’ at lunch time for being a snotty loud mouth
The ABC TV news going out of its way to support Turnbull in all this kerfuffle giving 90% of the time to the opposition and running their positions as well as attacks on Rudd for going to the US at the invitation of the President and then only a few seconds to a Govt backbencher. Like I said. The ABC has prostituted itself to the Liberal party.
The issue isn’t whether The Australian went over the top, the issue is whether Rudd and Swann knew that the Guarantees would dislocate the financial system.
$Millions of investment had been moved from being direct investments or investment in Funds to Bank Deposits the last few days, and it could have been designed better.
If Swann and Rudd knew that it would happened, they are incompetant for letting it happen (ie bank charged big refinancing fees, Lawyers is laughing all the way to the bank)
If Stevens had warned them, they are incompetant and did not listen to advise
If Stevens had not warned them, they are incompetant, because if they did some form of impact thinking or study, someone should have raised this as a concern. For example the UK has a 50,000 pounds limit to ensure the dislocation from happening. All they had to do is to speak with the UK on why they have a limit.
Whatever happened, Rudd and Swann and especially Henry are smelling pretty bad atm.
To a deaf, dumb and blind person perhaps
dovif… the Opposition are not doing a very good job of getting their message through. For this to have any impact they need to be able to explain the issue clearly to the public.
I always expect Pyne to suddenly pull out a handbag and fling it across the floor in a tantrum.
#556
That would be Denis Shanahan ?
SO Pyne has Downers hand me downs then Thomas?
QT coming up: I bet Pyne gets tossed out of the house by the speaker.
555 And no-one in the UK has thought to split their money into seperate £50,000 deposits?
Does the Government seriously have nothing better to do with parliamentary time than waste it with political games?
When it comes to credibility and respect a politician would find it hard to win against the Governor of the RBA and the head of Treasury, especially since they served under the previous government.
They are seen as politically neutral and so have no vested interest except to do their job. This is why we see the Opposition trying to smear the Stevens about the times he changed rates. They know they have to try and smear him before any attack on him might have any effect.
The Murdoch media tried to get revenge on Stevens on behalf of the Liberal party earlier this year when they tried a front page character assassination. There is of course no low either the Turnbull Opposition of the Murdoch media wont go.
Itep – The Opposition moved the last few motions. I don’t know why the wanted to stop question QT, but the moved the motion to do so.
I wonder who Rudd and Gillard were waving too.
Talking to a couple of aged pensioners yesterday afternoon in the course of my duties. They obviously dont get the finer point of Turnbulls tactics. They were convinced that he wants to take away their $1000 bonus. I dont know why they think this, but probably it is a measure of the confusion that his politicing is causing to the economically illiterate in the elder population.
If he starts getting on the wrong side of the geriatric vote, he wont have much left.
“Scripting script”. Nice call, Kevin.
What would we do without elections?
Oz, why would the Government want to waste the Parliament’s time with it though? Isn’t this a debate that can happen outside of Parliament, in the media etc.
Having read the motion now it’s actually quite outrageous for the Government to try and force a member to make a particular statement. What is democratic about that?
Ah, I think we’re talking about two different motions.
First motion was raised by the Government to give Turnbull 5 minutes to ‘apologise’. Probably a waste a time.
Then there was one by the Opposition, which if I remember was to tell Albanese to pipe down.
Then there was another motion to suspend standing orders 5 minutes before 2′oclock, including standing order 97 which calls for question time at 2′oclock.
I just moved a motion.
It was quite relieving.
Zing.
They haven’t agreed to the first motion yet as far as I can see. If they do it will be a black mark on democracy in Australia. To require a member of parliament to make a particular statement is just wrong.
Well debate on that as finished, we’re into QT. Maybe they’ll try again tomorrow? I don’t think you can actually pass a motion forcing someone to say something but you can give him time to make a statement. If he wants to make a statement (apology) he can. If he doesn’t, the government says he’s unrepentant. Win-win.
AHAHA.
Turnbull wants to pass a motion censuring the PM and Treasurer for their ‘inept economic management’.
This is going to backfire on him so bad.
A censure from Turnbull… what a tool
Parliament isn’t sitting tomorrow. Is it on again next week?
Oh yeah tomorrow’s Friday.
He keeps saying the Government is causing the RBA to increase interest rates. I thought every economist was predicting rates to drop between 1-2% by next year.
Alas, it isn’t sitting till November 10.
Yeah, he’s a bit thick
This is just a stunt by Turnbull. No evidence of any wrong doing and basically saying to a large chunk of the general community “we don’t want to guarantee your money”. What a politically stupid line to take.
Turnbull makes my skin crawl, so difficult to listen him. He needs to get some speaking lessons. Must be the barrister stuff, though it worked OK for Costello.
I guess the point of the censure motion is so the ABC and OO can have more material to flag wave for him.
He’s been speaking non-stop for 20 minutes. This is supposed to be the time you hold the Government to account not make speeches.
Now he’s calling them Communists, rofl. 90% of the Labor party has just walked out.
Did anyone see “Lateline” last night? I actually thought they did a good job of discrediting Turnbull’s arguments.
All of this is just about process. People aren’t interested in this and nor will they understand it.
I’m not watching parliament atm but if Turnbull called them communists then he has lost the plot.
Yeah, was crapping on about Mao’s red book or some such rubbish
I think the whole idea is to create confusion then blame the government for it.
Turnbull’s naked greed for power at any cost is showing through. Doesn’t the LNP have at least one decent politician?
Did he really call them communists?
Rudd a still on song. Not losing focus on the important thing. Turnbull’s attacks on Henry and Stevens for political gain. You can only present one message to the public at a time.
He said they were stealing economic policy from Mao’s Red Book, called them “Comrade Rudd”, “Comrade Swan” and “Comrade Albo” and that he was “all for Asian values” but not economic policy from the “red book”.
Considering that Rudd and Swan are speaking in concert with the Treasury and the RBA he was obviously calling them “Comrade Henry” and “Comrade Stevens”.
>>>>Did he really call them communists?
He said they were undemocratic and their rule book was the little red book.
What a Pr*ck !
Watching the division in Parliament and noticed Turnbull sitting in the PM’s chair. Rudd was content to sit on the Opposition front bench seat.
Turnbull must be trying it out for fit for when he takes over the reins.
I just saw Turnbull’s performance on yesterday’s 7:30 Report. He didn’t just get slaughtered. He strung up the guillotine, laid his head on the block and pulled the string.
Turnbull is dancing to the Liberal right’s tune. He needs them to keep his job.
Rudd just put them in their place. He even said during his talk that the libs were all over there bowing their heads now, Allbull especially he grabbed a pen and pretended he was writing lol coward!
So if no one else has noticed, Playschool follows immediately after Question Time.
A lot of jokes could be made about that. Someone at ABC scheduling as a sense of humour.
Rudd also said how when asked 5 times on TV last night what his policy was Allbull couldn’t give an answer
TURNBULL WAS MAKING JOKES ABOUT MY BOOK!!!??!!
THE BASTARD
Just when you think the Liberals can’t get any worse……….watch today’s farce in QT!
What a bunch of arrogant tools!
And so much for Turnball being different to Nelson – LMAO
Nothing is out of bounds with the fibs. Nothing.
Thats why it was so easy in the last election to distribute those racist pamplets in jackie kelly’s old seat.
Abetz – wasn’t his uncle the second in charge ranking gestapo running paris during WW2 – one of his relatives anyway.
Could be interesting in the Senate again today. Coonan & Abetz will be in full flight.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24539511-5007133,00.html
Otto Abetz,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Abetz
They got a Shultz too, he’s been complaining about a Nat threatening to shoot him.
Thanks scorpio – the photo has an eerie likeness to the bully in the senate who is continuing his relatives work in the area of propaganda
Great Censure motion by Turnbull today in the Reps.
Comrade Kevin, Comrade Swan….classic.
Glen: how can someone of your obvious intelligence defend this lot? They are a disgrace!
Turnbull has totally lost the plot!
Moving a Censure Motion against the PM & Treasurer during Question Time. This is in no doubt to garner maximum media coverage on tonights current affairs programs & tomorrows papers.
Talk about a risk taker. Typical merchant banker. Look where this sort of thing has left the global financial system in!
scorpio
you still do not get it, it is government intervention into the market which caused this
For example, the US government requirement for low doc loans which inflated the market.
Other example are Howard’s first home buyers grant (however a one off) which have been doubled by Rudd. Like Rudd, you do not know what caused the US housing bubble, which led to the eventual collapse of the financial system
So the government should do nothing dovif? Good luck pushing that barrow. Lack of government regulation is what caused this all in the first place.
dovif – I have a bridge that I’m selling today – going real cheap.
Can do you a great deal – its a buyers market at the moment.
And to take the credit for anything that works. Rainmaker needs to do both.
This is really getting ugly. Seems to me they really believe they’re winning through. Some serious mistakes being made here.
Barnaby has predictably attacked Rudd for attending the G20 Summit.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/23/2398939.htm?section=justin
[Some serious mistakes being made here.] But by who BB?
[Some serious mistakes being made here.] Just seeing why this didn’t work at 613.
Clearly by Turnbull. He’s flipped his lid if he thinks the punters are going to be impressed by this arrogant performance. It’s sheer chutzpah, a total con, all spin, piss and wind. It’s why the voters booted his party out and the Libs still doj’t understand that their arrogance is their worst enemy.
It’s what he famous for. It is Turnbull’s Achille’s Heel. His tragic flaw. It’s his ego that loses the day for him every time.
Well, if you think the average voter cares about a ‘tax’ on bank accounts over $1 million…
I wish the Chaser was still running. they would have a field day with this weeks goings on.
Kevin and his little red book? H’mm he even speaks the language well?? Has anyone had a look under his bed lately to see if any other reds are hiding under there??
Its not QT, its FFT (Farce from the Fibs Time).
Dario
Government intervention is what created this
Fannie Mae was set up by the US GOVERNMENT under Democrat president Franklin D Rosevelt to facilitate lending and securitisation of the mortgage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Mae
The community Reinvestment act was passed first by Jimmy Carter (D) President and strengthen by Clinton (D) and Bush Snr (R)
These legislation required US banks includes Fannie Mae to lend to people who cannot afford housing, artificially inflating the housing market
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_policies_and_the_subprime_mortgage_crisis
These legislation requires banks to give non-recourse loans and 30 years fixed loans (ie the bank is taking all the risk, the mortgager can walk away)
Government Policy caused the housing bubble
US Government Policy then raised the interest rate (both Bush and the Democrate Congress), so that these people cannot repay.
they then almost stand by and watch the housing bubble burst and did nothing while banks fail
It was incompetant government policy which cause this, no amount of regulation can save us, if that is what the government want.
Australia is not as bad, the government policies are much better, the only housing bubble we have is caused by the boom and the first home buyers grant ….. which is escaping Rudd atm.
One of you Labor party members need to tell Rudd that
dovif, we’ve been over all this
Glenda hewitt on pm agenda refusing to answer the question whether the OO stands by its story on RBA etc
Actually, I agree with BB. I was just asking to get clarification on his prviously expressed opinion.
From a point of view of being somewhat inside the fibs camp (work-related)
I can assure you that most businesspeople are PISSED off with talcum and his band of incompetents
One guy i was talking to today asked if we could install a shite filter-basically to stop anymore guff being emailled to him from the fibs.I laughed and said “just block sender” ,but no he wanted specifically on name
apparently the fibs are emailling out daily updates.
all thats doing is angering the base more.
keep up the good work fibs
What a surprise
dovif, even if you’re right (and I doubt that) this is not clever politics by the Libs. They are essentially saying “we don’t think 40% of you out there should be covered by this guarantee. Try and get people to agree with that.
Gary, it seems the square brackets thing only works on complete paragraphs – whereas you kept typing without hitting return after closing the brackets.
Why do we have to answer the same stupid points every few days that the global financial crisis is somehow entirely the fault of one particular company that was created 70 years and privatised 40 years ago.
I wonder if the ABC are going to rip into Turnbull tonight or buy into his BS.
If anyone cares what I think, smearing Eric Abetz on the basis of what his great uncle got up to seems distasteful at best.
Curious indeed, how you could get called a communist for your efforts in trying to save the capitalist banking system from collapse?
Would Turnbull rather the government let the banks collapse? Do his “fears” over inflation mean that he wishes the government didn’t agree to help pensioners?
I don’t want to be devil’s advocate but technically it’s not 40% of ‘people’ it wouldn’t cover but 40% of the actual money. It’s a pretty moot point anyway since the banks have already said that it was a good move in terms of easing up the credit market and not guaranteeing almost half that we may not have seen ANZ etc. pass on the full extent of that rate cut like they ended up doing. You know, that rate cut where the specifically mentioned government policy as a reason that they could now pass it on.
Gary you can read the 2 attachment and make your mind up
Of course Bush is ^%*@($#($, he lower interest rate to almost 0 after 9/11 and invited people to borrow to pop up the US economy. And then raise the interest rate on them, so they cannot repaid, that was … not SMART
Dario, I agree, I am just sick of people saying “Merchant Bankers” caused these or Excessive capitalism caused this, people who thinks Excessive Capitalism cause this, and then Double the home buyer grant (HOUSING BUBBLE) is repeating a mistake made in the US.
Good point, especially since he’s a Liberal senator there’s so much more to smear him on.
I think the % does not matter much, as long as money aren’t flying out of our mortgage system, and the guarantee should ensure that.
Really, if the economy is going so badly that the big 4 collapse, the government won’t have any money to pay the guarantees anyway
And again for the 15th time, there’s virtually no comparison to be made with the US housing bubble and the Australian housing market. Like you pointed out, US interest rates were ridiculously low. What are they in Australia? More than 6x higher. The US had a huge oversupply of housing. What do we have in Australia? A serious problem with under supply. What were US banks doing? Handing out subprime loans to everyone. Australian banks are not doing that to anywhere near the extent of the US, if at all.
0/3.
dovif
By your logic, no criminal is responsible for their crime, it is the victim who invites it. Rubbish.
Defenders of unregulated capitalism can’t have it both ways. If the current crisis is not the fault of capitalism because we had governmetn interference in the markets, then nor can capitalism take teh credit for any of teh prosperity of recent years. Convesely, if capitalism was repsonsible for the prosperity, then it also is responsible for the mess now. You can’t credibly say that capitalism is responsible for all the good consequences, and none of the bad consequences, of the same sequence of events.
625 – Thanks William.
I would like to take this opportunity to wish Malcolm Turnbull a Happy Birthday for tomorrow.
His only birthday as Opposition Leader must surely be a momentous day.
The performance of Truffles & co neatly encapsulates where the Right has gone wrong in recent years. Basically many of the right-wing parties around the world have fallen into the trap of wedge politics, whereby they try and appeal to the hoi polloi on the basis of some perceived social grievance. These seem to be mostly about racial issues, but wedges about gays, history, PC, abortion, guns or dole bludgers will do the job just as well. These serve the useful purpose of acting as cover for their economic policies, which, in their hearts of hearts, they know people won’t vote for on their own.
This has been a very successful tactic for them over the last couple of decades, but in recent years it has degenerated into debate point-scoring, and we are seeing the low rent end of this with our current Federal Opposition. The big risk for a party pursuing this kind of strategy is that in time (and especialy after they lose office), they become known as the “nasty party”. This is certainly what happened to the UK Tories, and it seems now to be happening to the US Republicans and our very own Libs. One can get away with being a nasty government (for a while), but as an opposition you just look cheap and desperate.
The other problem the Right has is that their parties have concentrated too much on the politics and not enough on policy. Both Bush and Howard were elected as small-government conservatives, yet government got bigger under both, and for no particular benefit – a lot of this government spending goes on pork barrelling and strategically buying off voters. Tories are probably at their most useful when they are slashing and burning, but they really have no idea on how best to spend money (see, for example, the Howard government’s next to useless programs of their last few years, when government coffers were running over).
Associating Eric Abetz with his great-uncle Otto is indeed a bit unfair, if rather funny. I presume of course that Abetz protested when Jeff Kennett attacked Senator Sid Spindler for having been a member of the Hitler Youth at age 10.
Erica Betz is my favourite raving loony in the Senate. Leave him alone, he provides a unique perspective on Australian politics. If it was not for him and Coonan and Brandis and and and Oh yes Barnaby. Who would watch the Senate?
Maybe The Comedy Channel is waiting in the wings with a contract.
The Barnaby and Heff Show is the only thing that keeps the Senate awake.
New NZ poll showing basically a dead heat, so National have lost the commanding lead they had before the crash. When are we getting a NZ thread, William?
Belinda Neal Cleared over Demon Baby Remarks.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24541756-5005361,00.html
Hopefully soon. Labour vote is slightly down, but because it all went to the Greens the left block (Labour/Greens/Progressive) have got the same number of seats as National. Based on this poll, the Maori Party even though they’re only on 2.3% could pick up 7 seats as they are all designated for Maori’s. That would give them the balance of power.
Btw the poll also showed that when asked who they trust on economic management the people responded:
Clark and Labour: 45.4 percent. Key and National: 45.8 percent.
Which is a pretty damn good result for Labour considering the economy is supposedly Key’s strong point and NZ is in recession.
Yes it is – another minority Labor government, hopefully this time without Winston Peters, seems the most likely result, a remarkable achievement for Clark, who looked dead and buried a month ago.
The plural of Maori is Maori as I understand.
oops Labour government.
Seems the Global Economic crisis just got a bit closer to home.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/business/mortgage-fund-freeze-shock/2008/10/23/1224351436457.html
Malcolm is playing the wrong sort of game, one that I think has more risks for him than Rudd.
Once a polly has been categorised by the public it is hard to shift opinion on them and anything that doesn’t fit the picture is often forgotten. On the other hand something that fits the category reinforces the image.
This explains why after a decade many people still thought John Howard was that nice harmless man, ignoring all those negative things attached to his time in power. It also in part explains why Murdoch smears didn’t and couldn’t hurt Rudd, they did not fit the early categorisation of Rudd by the public (both his TV appearances and early campaign presence).
This categorisation thing can be a bad thing for Turnbull. He has started off with a high arrogance and low trustworthy rating by the public, which is dangerous mix for him to have. Anything that feeds this early dishonesty and arrogance feeling by the public will only solidify it for Turnbull.
Turnbull’s current games are quite dangerous for him if Labor play it correctly and continually turn it back on him. In effect he has given Labor a platform with which to fling these negative messages about him that reinforce the negative public perception and even enhance it. If you are seen as arrogant and untrustworthy you really shouldn’t be going out and undermining the RBA and Treasurey.
As I have said before Labor should be using things like ’slippery Malcolm’ ’slippery barrister talk’ and undermining decent honest men for political gain, it doesn’t have to be too relevant, only oft repeated, as we see in the USA.
On the other hand it is very hard to attack Rudd as he has always been in a positive category for a long time (check the polls for the last 2 years) and thus many negative messages will wash off or be forgotten because they don’t fit.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg20026774.400-our-psychology-helps-politicians-bend-the-truth.html
This is one Senator in particular who seems to give people reason to doubt his ethical standards without any help from anyone else.
TP
Its called Cognitive Dissonance “an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously”.
It is rife in the Rabble at the moment.
steve @ 647. According to the article, curious that the Chief Exec. gets more money despite the company doing worse on all fronts, no?
It is interesting that negative attacks on Rudd are more likely to be forgotten or positively rationalised than those on Turnbull. So I guess Rudd should be reinforcing his pigeon hole as well as expanding it and, Turnbull trying to get out of his quick smart whilst under attack trying to keep him there.
Slippery Malcolm fits so easily but Slippery Kevin doesn’t feel right.
Adam in Canberra… do you have a link to that poll? Watching Helen Clark being interviewed makes me wish our PM was such a smooth and effective communicator.
HSN @ 651
Which fits into Rudd’s decision for something to be done about it and I believe Turnbull was on the other side of the argument. Some ammunition for him if needed.
These issues get the general public quite worked up and can over shadow the major issue of the business failure. I guess because one we feel helpless to do anything about one but the other we can imagine getting retribution.
I’ve seen plenty about the Liberals picking fights recently with Treasury and the Reserve Bank of Australia but now the Liberal National Party are taking on another major regulator in the form of the ACCC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/23/2398757.htm?section=justin
ruawake @ 650. I think the specific cognitive dissonance going on within the Libs. currently, goes something like this – we should be the guvvmint – oh, bugger we’re not. Think that about sums it up, or as Bushfire Bill might say – shorter Libs. psychopathology.
BTW, Alan Kohler officially declared he didn’t have a clue what was happening tonight. We live in interesting times.
steve @ 647 -
The higher risk/high return mortgage funds have been hemorrhaging redemptions since at least January. The bank guarantee may have spurred this on to a degree, but it has not caused it:
They are angling to get special treatment with more than a little help from their friends in the LNP, but why should they be treated any different to other higher risk investments such a the stock market?
It was vital that the banking system was protected. As we’ve already seen, if it freezes up then the international economy is pole-axed. However, this is not the case with other investment vehicles.
TP @ 654. Exactly.
Mayoferal it will be interesting to see what happens to ABC Learning in the near future. Will this company that was set up to privatise childcare funding have its hand out for a baleout or will they just die quietly?
steve @ 655. Or anyone else for that matter. Why would the Libs. open up another front with the ACCC, along with every other significant economic/ financial institution? I can’t see any political advantage at all.
NZ poll
http://www.stuff.co.nz/vote08/4737380a28435.html
HSO, it is an old conservative tactic played consistently by conservatives to undermine the General Public’s faith in public institutions, we will get some idea of how successful the tactic has been from the next Newspoll. My guess is that it will backfire on the conservatives bigtime.
Interesting… the Maori Party are fairly conservative aren’t they?
It sounds as though The Australian’s unsubstantiated allegation and the Opposition’s pursuit of it was more of a spurring on that anything the government did…
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2398597.htm
steve @ 662. However, it would suggest that they, the Libs., don’t actually understand that if the global financial system falls over in a total heap, we’re all, including them, up the proverbial faecal creek, or that they don’t care. That second possibility is what’s had me gob smacked, I’ve got to say.
Thanks, Dario. I’d missed that. Another piece of the jigsaw.
HSO, it is the regulators that have the job of restoring order, pursuing the wrong doers and making rules that will take the excesses out of a dysfunctional market and guide the country into a more sane era. Naturally with blind faith in the ability of markets to be self correcting, the conservatives oppose the regulators.
Following up on my comment @ 663, I’ve found references which make it reasonably clear the Maori Party would not support National. There’s hope left for Labour yet… and it would certainly be interesting to see National self-destruct if they do lose the election.
steve, I do understand that, however, with the most spectacular and disastrous failure of the lack of regulation going on around us, even those with blind faith in the ability of markets to self correct, might wonder why they keep bouncing off the brick wall again, and again, and again. I suppose I have a problem with people who can’t change their view, when presented with new evidence. Then I conclude they’re behaving irrationally, and then, how mad they are. All I can conclude, at this point, is the Libs. are behaving in quite exceptionally irrational ways. Malcolm’s ego being no small part of it.
John Key has a bit of an image problem – being the “Smiling Assassin” for Merrill Lynch is probably not a good look at the moment.
ru
Is his brother Don Key,the “infamous voter”
Gusface, Don Key’s Parliamentary tour.
http://www.publicaddress.net/system/topic,432,don_keys_parliamentary_tour.sm
HSO @ 669
Wasn’t there a chap called Karl somebody or other who used to labour on something terrible about the internal contraditions of something or other? Grin.
Boerwar, Turnbull was on about the “Little Red Book” in Parliament today. Whatever did he mean?
Steve
“Turnbull was on about the “Little Red Book” in Parliament today. Whatever did he mean?”
maybe talcum was talking about his book of ex clients and the state they ended up in.
Boerwar @ 673. Well, quite. The idiocy in parliament today about red books etc. is just about the silliest thing I’ve seen in a good long time. It really does seem like a Monty Python script.
Not a word about any of it on ABC TV news this evening.
Telling…
so steve, Nuw Zulund is working really well then?
Bushfire Bill. What do you mean ? You can’t possibly expect anything approaching impartial reporting, at this stage? C##p, is all we will get from them. Brissenden is a joke, Ullmann a tool, Red kerry (see Political Sword for really interesting analysis, and I know you’ve been there, and liked you’re contribution).
After all the hoo-har about Rudd not visiting Japan,damaging relations etc it’s strange we haven’t heard the same outrage about Turnbull hurting relations with the Chinese with his sarcastic insults about Mao’s Red Book.
I wonder what Turnbull’s favourite book is? A few suggestions:
Milton Friedmans “Free to Choose”
“Das Kapital”
“My Brilliant Career”
“Bonfire of the Vanities”
“How to win friends and influence people” (borrowed from Tony Abbott)
A propos of nothing very much, Andrew Bolt’s blog has a post on … you guessed it… the coldest October day in years. It contains this observation about Antartic ice, to wit: that the ice, in extent, is “almost within a standard deviation for the past ten years.”
Which I guess means “still outside it”.
You’re a dummy, Andrew.
Nor on Ch 7 with Mark Reilly either.
Bushfire Bill,check out page 48 of todays hansard.
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/reps/latesthansard/rhansard.pdf
Bushfire Bill, I’ve no idea how Goddamyou can stomach anything Mr . Bolt posts. Godam, thid is what results from having a leg reducefd cat loose. I’ll post this while I can .
I reckon the liberals have made a big mistake making Turnbull leader. Mark my words, he is worse than Latham. If he is still there by the time of the next election we will find out by the number of seats he gets thrashed by.
They have no clear position on anything. They, with no shame, continue to contradict themselves. They have lost the plot and are out of control.
The most important fact is that, contrary to their belief and behaviour, the voting public who determine the outcome of elections can see it.
Next newspoll prediction: PPM; Rudd > 60, Turnbull < 20.
This is perhaps a cynical question but, given the LNP efforts to get the bank guarantee widened to already threatened mortgage fudns, does anyoen know if there is any underlying personal reason? They are getting quite shrill about this. Does anyone in shadowy cabinet have a few dollars invested in one of these funds? Just curious…
I’m not quite sure whether this article on the SMH website is meant to be news or editorial:
http://business.smh.com.au/business/perpetual-backlash-for-rudd-20081023-577y.html
You would assume it is editorial as it contains these lines: “The guarantee is turning out to be a disaster…” and “If the Government is to favour one sector over others, there must be an equitable arrangement made on fees and caps on executive salaries.” but it still isn’t completely transparent in the fact that it’s not a ‘news’ article.
Socrates, they probably all do!
Íf anyone can make any sense of this rant can they please explain it to me. I personally think that the Liberals have a Leader who is stark raving mad.
It doesn’t have to be either a news story or an editorial. It could be an opinion piece. That’s one disadvantage of reading newspapers online – you don’t get to see an article in relation to the rest of the paper, which often tells you what articles are.
It seems to make sense to me. The Government passed a motion calling on the Leader of the Opposition to make a specific statement, which flies in the face of democracy. Turnbull is analogising that to early communist China (rather clumsily). He has a very good point… the whole thing was entirely shameful.
ltep @ 692
The LNP tried to make this point until it was revealed the exact situation was addressed in 2006? by Abbott on a panel and approved of it. Thus what Labor did was something the Liberal’s set the precedent for. Hoisted on their own it seems.
Steve, what a waste of time and of tax payers dollars this farcical opportunistic opposition has become!
We face the most serious financial crisis of a lifetime and parliament is forced to tolerate a lightweight like Turnbull.
It was wrong then as well. If the Senate passed a motion calling on a Senate Minister to make a particular statement would you agree with it?
After watching the program on Harold Holt tonight on “our” ABC, it is clear that some weird machinations take place within the Liberal Party in relation to contests for the Leadership of that venerable organisation.
There were by far more questions left unanswered than were exposed in regard to the internal workings of the Liberal Party and Country Party at the time.
It’s a pity there was not a Royal Commission convened whilst many of the participants of this saga were still alive. It would appear to me that much of the intrigue of that era has continued in one form or another, through to the present day.
No wonder that the Corporate world prefer to have a Coalition Government. There well could be unfortunate facts revealed under a Labor Administration one of these days. The close ties to ASIO & the Commonwealth Police (now FPS) by the Libs, are somewhat more easily explained now.
I would like to see some answers to the questions left unanswered and the rottenness cut out of our democracy forthwith.
Speaking of Turnbull and MAo’s Red Book, someone has posted the video.
http://www.youtube.com/my_subscriptions?pi=0&ps=20&sf=added&sa=0&sq=&dm=2#
Censure Motion:
Part 1:http://www.youtube.com/my_subscriptions?pi=0&ps=20&sf=added&sa=0&sq=&dm=2#
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/my_subscriptions?pi=0&ps=20&sf=added&sa=0&sq=&dm=2#
And ironically Normie Rowe, who played Holt, was several months later, drafted into the Army in controversial circumstances where he was the only person drafted with his birth date.
Did Turnbull call for Henry to be dismissed?
“My question is addressed to the Prime Minister. Given that the Prime Minister was too busy to speak to the Reserve Bank governor himself on the deposit guarantee matter, if it turns out that the Reserve Bank governor did not, in fact, expressly recommend an unlimited deposit guarantee, will he dismiss the Secretary of the Treasury for misleading the Cabinet?”
Latest Business Coverage, smh. I think this might only be the beginning of the meltdown.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/perpetual-backlash-for-rudd-20081023-577y.html
Nah! Whatever gave you that idea. Turnbull denied it last night, so he can’t have. There must be something wrong with my ears. And probably a mistake in Hansard!
http://business.smh.com.au/business/perpetual-backlash-for-rudd-20081023-577y.html
Looks to me like Corporate greed rewarding incompetence and worse. One regular poster here seems to believe that the problem is political and involved two particular mortgage providers in the US. Mmmmmm
Scorpio, they seem to have been on a bit of a buying spree recently.
http://www.moneymanagement.com.au/Article/Perpetual-s-16-million-SMSF-acquisition/239427.aspx
I’m with you on this ltep it is not a democracy if you can vote to force someone to say something and that someone also being an elected representative.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/23/news/companies/goldman_layoffs.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008102307
Goldman Sachs shedding 10% of their workforce.
I have posted a New Zealand election thread.
TP @ 704 … I don’t think they were forcing Turnbull to say something .. they were giving him the opportunity to say something ..
TP, they can’t force anyone to say anything. The motion gives the nominated person the opportunity to say the nominated response. In this case an apology to Ken Henry.
It is up to the nominated person whether or not they take that opportunity. ie It cannot be forced.
William, I can hear all the kiwi’s clapping their “jandles” together whilst sitting on their cooly bins.
Pol Pot Plant
But they didnt ask nicely,,and acknowledge his superior intellect blah blah blah
The issue is turnbulls behaviour OUTSIDE parliament
maybe albanses should look at talcum bringing the house of reps into disrepute
I believe this has been done before
Scorpio @ 702
So they are not going to get any performance incentive because of “declining profit, dividends and almost a 40% reduction in the share price”
…. so what do they do … “increase in the fixed component of the remuneration” … LOL … how good is that for them … and these are the guys Turnbull is babbling on behalf of. pfft
albanses-Albanese
Swan
“”These are not deposits in a bank, we are dealing with market-linked investments,” Mr Swan said. “The Government is not in a position, and never can be in a position, to provide the same guarantee to market-linked investments as apply to the banking system.”
http://business.theage.com.au/business/four-fund-providers-suspend-withdrawals-as-redemptions-soar-20081023-57ef.html
I did see the lame Little Red Book, Comrade spiel on one of the news channels … it might have been Ch10.
oh for the days of Brendan … at least he was unintentionally funny, Turnbull is just lame and pathetic. With Nelson I felt a bit sorry for him, with his earnest populist efforts .. with Turnbull I just cringe with embarrassment at his display of self importance, and his general ineptitude as Opp leader.
Mr Brandweiner said the Government needed to act “very quickly” to fix the problem, saying it could have flow-on consequences for the wider economy.
“This sector really needs support,” he said. (Richard Brandweiner, the group executive income and multi-sector at Perpetual)
LOL … privatised profits, socialised losses …
I want my investments in the emu farm/palm tree oil farm industry guaranteed as well …pffft
oh yeah and I want the bets I put on Australia to win against India in the cricket tests to be guarranteed
yes not force, give allocate him 5 minutes to make an apology.
Turnbull showed ignorance about the real Gang of Four, in his membership of his Gang of Four, by putting the leader (Chairman Rudd) in, when Mao was not in the real Gang of Four. (not saying that Kevin Rudd is really like Mao)
Ttfab @ 717
LOL … typical of Turnbull going of halfc0cked without properly knowing the facts
I suspect the OO is less than happy that Henry stood up for himself. He is supposed to be a compliant Howard dog, doesn’t he know that? They are probably surprised to see someone with integrity (if they recognise it as that, they may not know).
People with integrity are the most hated creatures for the murdoch media. Because they can get no cheap tricks out of them and, it reminds them of what they are.
Talking about cheap tricks, wonder if the Treasury leaker is feeling the heat yet?
The whole Coonan/Abetz/Brandis trying to “Gotcha” K.Henry in the Senate estimates … it’s this whole ridiculous “Gotcha” style of journalism and politics
after getting no where with the original allegations, the next step in this stupid “gotcha game” would normally be
… it’s not the original allegation of who said what to whom and when, but but but it’s the “Cover-up” … of unproven allegations
at least we have been spared that stupid angle … [b]hopefully[/b]
Well, isn’t this fun
… all this cut and thrust, parry and riposte!…. it’s very exciting isn’t it 
It’s going to be a ripper of a week
Wayne’s got this to deal with in the morning and make no mistake, Boris and Natasha are going to make his life hell about this = http://www.theage.com.au/national/go-to-centrelink-swans-advice-on-frozen-funds-20081023-57gk.html – that’s going to be tricky
Meanwhile, Kev’s going to nip-off(again!, screams Barnaby) to have a natter, one on 20 with the grown-ups(?)= http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/crisscrossing-the-dateline-with-the-pm-20081023-57cb.html
Is going to be a very exciting 2 weeks on Oz politics – Exposed(uncut!)
Well, you wanted some skin!
Even Dennis sees the error of Turnbull’s way.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24543989-17301,00.html
707
{TP @ 704 … I don’t think they were forcing Turnbull to say something .. they were giving him the opportunity to say something]
That’s how I see it too PPP. ..
LOl … love this …
Malcolm Turnbull feeds the cat
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/malcolm-turnbull-feeds-the-cat/2008/10/23/1224351445264.html
In case you missed the excellent documentary on Harold Holt’s disappearance and the subsequent backstabbing the Libs and Nats (what’s new), you can watch the streaming video here.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/documentaries/interactive/pms/ep1/
That’s brilliant! Chris Henning take a bow
PPP @ 724
ROFL
Some of the reports on these mortgage funds are written in a very inflamatory way. They are refered to in 1 article as “three big financial institutions” which to most people will make then sound like banks or building societies. But they are not. Swan quite rightly refers to them as market lined investments which no government can afford to guarrentee and shouldnt.
Its sad for people who will lose money, but if they lose all their savings then its because they have had all their eggs in one basket. Never a good idea
Australia’s energy crisis is solved, simply connect a small generator to the wheels of the OO as they pedal backwards
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24537717-16741,00.html
So investors are moving their funds to the banks because they are worried about its safety? Well if you are retired it may well be the sensible thing to do if you think the property market is in for a bad time. It certainly suffered at the last crash.
And investors were already moving funds across to the banks I believe.
So the problem for them is a reduction in income from their investments. Thus Swan is right of course though it doesn’t sound particularly tactful.
I don’t think the government really wants to guarantee the whole property market if that is what is being requested.
Gee I wonder how much all the mortgage trust funds add up to in Australia? Good way to bankrupt the country if a recession hits.
Let me try that again…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24537717-16741,00.html
Whoever the clown was that wrote that article should have a look at the current inflation rate, then read what they wrote again:
Some libs have called Turnbull their Latham experiment, even paraphasing labor by saying we are in for a wild exciting time, just what you need in a time of world economic crisis.
As for business saying Turnbull is the only one who wants a recession, his comments re the bank gaurantee and other institutions are designed to provoke a run on those other institutions Reminiscent of the coalition senator who urged the USA not to buy Australian wheat as it would help bring down the Hawke government. Such depths of feeling for ones’ country do the libs have.
Holt documentary was fascinating, perhaps Zombie Mao can enlighten us as to whether he made it to the sub.
Michel Stuchbury reveal that in calling the government “barking-mad”, he’s the one who needs the men in white coats.
Ken Henry was aggressively questioned in a Senate committee. Somehow this is a mistake on the part of the government (I dunno, youse figure it out).
Then a couple of local non-bank mortgage finance funds have some troubles in, y’know, the middle of a meltdown that’s all to do with… non-bank mortgage finance funds. They need someone to blame for all this so, thanks to Turnbull placing their financial health front and centre of the nation’s attention… they blame the government. hat was mistakeNo. 2, according to Stuchbury. No-one seems to bother asking whether all the negative publicity Turnbull’s put their way had anything to do with this. Well, it’s The Australian after all.
But here is Stuchbury’s third paragraph:
He lost me after “But…”. The Rudd government’s (and similar governments’) financial measures “pulled the world back from the brink”, but somehow or other this is a bad thing, because it involved regulation, as proved by the non-bank firms’ distress. Apparently regulating to save the world, at the expense of the types of companies that caused this mess in the first place is “barking-mad”. Just because the firms advertise in dulcet tones on 2UE and 2GB doesn’t mean they’re immune from being lumped in with their dodgy cousins.
As I said, youse figure it out.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24542966-5017885,00.html
Turnball is the Libs “Latham Experiment”?
So after he crashes and burns, will he release his own diaries and slam his colleagues?
Bushfire Bill, it seems that while The Australian is stuck in the past, the New York times could give them a hint as to the fundamental flaw in their economic argument.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
An article in the SMH on the Haneef inquiry, indicating that the AFP accept no blame in their handling of the case:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/afp-accepts-no-blame-in-haneef-case/2008/10/23/1224351449265.html
I would observe that if you can’t be honest with yourself, its difficult to then be honest with other people.
Those responsible must know that their credibility is ruined. In this case we had a prosecutor, advised by the AFP, making false statements to a magistrate over a serious criminal charge. At least the prosecutor recognised the error and withdrew the charges. But what of those giving the advice? I could see the possibility where a defence lawyer might dredge this up as an example to undermine the reliability of AFP officers testimony in a trial in future, and might succeed.
Pol Pot Plant 724
That SMH link is brilliant! LOL
The article works equally well if you insert the name of your “favourite” oz journalist in place of Malcom.
Heard the slippery Malcolm in Question Time yesterday referring to Mr Rudd as “the ultimate control freak.”
The Liberals could at least try getting their accusations in concert. For ages they have been running the line that he is indecisive, sends everything to committees.
Now comes this aspersion which contradicts the previous.
Making two mutually-exclusive charges calls into question the validity of both.
BB and Steve
There are some amusing logical fallacies in those who believe both that the previous government were brilliant economic managers and not merely lucky, and that the unregulated free market cannot fail. Both dismiss any contrary evidence with a wave of sophistry. They also contradict themselves: if free markets can’t fail, then the previous government were not that brilliant; conversely if Howard and co. were great managers, then it must imply that free markets can fail.
They refuse to admit that the prosperity of the past decade might have been due to a whole range of factors other than government policy: the emergence of the Asian economy, technological change, demographics (still lots of baby boomers in the workforce and saving for their retirement), social change (most women work now) etc.
One of the troubles with the increasingly narrow specialised education most professionals receive today is that they don’t think outside what they have been taught. Whenever there is a problem, economists look for an economic policy solution, lawyers look to new legislation, sociologists look to change behaviour etc. We engineers were in the past accused of only looking at technological solutions, but I think we’re off the hook because the decision makers haven’t listened to us since the 80s. Then again, looking at the state of our cities and rivers, perhaps a few technical solutions are required.
I digress; the bottom line is that the credibility of the previous ruling paradigm in economic and political theory is destroyed, whether its proponents admit it or not.
Socrotes but it is still sad to see a major Australian newspaper and her maj’s official opposition putting their blindfolds on and their fingers in their ears while the evidence mounts on a daily basis that what they are advocating is not workable.
Steve
Agreed. I would include the Oz in the list of proponents of that which is not credible. My point is that their loyalty is not just to a particular political party; it is to a now discredited ideology. It must be hard to be an impartial journalist when you are utterly convinced that a single world view is correct.
Apparently now they, those that have money in mortgage investment funds and those trying to undermine the Australian Government, want every mortgage investment to be guaranteed because they are having to freeze funds because of the run on their funds. The Fund Managers are doing the right thing to protect those funds by the way. Except for one of those Investment Funds, which has been having problems since the beginning of this year. That being City Pacific.
It must be a shock to people who have lived off the markets in the good times to discover the wonder of margin calls and taking real losses compared to paper losses before the markets rebound as they have for more than a decade.
I’m expecting the calls for decent market regulation to increase as the reality begins to bite despite the wild bashing of regulators we have seen from the Oz and the Opposition this past week or so. A couple of bad Newspolls will probably knock some of the more surreal nonsense out of them.
There are good economic reasons NOT to guarantee mortgage funds. These funds are fairly safe, but still represent an at-risk investment vehicle that normally returns higher % growth than bank deposits. Many have crowed that they have outperformed share markets in the last year. Nobody should reasonably expect they are risk free. Property markets and these funds have gone down before, eg in the early 90s. If we guarantee these funds where does it stop?
The problem if investors are allowed to take money out of the funds early is that those serious investors in for the long term find that somewhere down the track the fund gets closed out with no chance of the fund being able to stabilise and become profitable again. What can be done about it, I don’t know but it is very destabilising to have cash taken out of these funds favouring those who got out early and disadvantaging those in for the longterm.
Steve
Exactly – these funds are not bank accounts that you can take money out of on a whim. If everyone wants to get out now, then they have to dump property on the market immediately, which will just exacerbate the collapsing market.
You have noticed the stock market falling 40% over the last year, right? People are pulling out of quite a lot of things
Dario, fair enough I can see why people would want to take their money out of high risk funds and put it in the bank but do they all get this option at the same time? Nobody has yet said how long these funds are frozen and what happens when they are thawed out again as far as I know.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/goverment-is-helping-h-e-l-p-i-n-g.html
Well no, but this is not the first time funds have been frozen… as pointed out several times other mortgage-based funds have been frozen prior to the government’s announcement of the bank guarantee
Look at it this way… other governments around the world have been announcing bank guarantees in the past few weeks. If the government DIDN’T do the same then where do you think funds in our banks would be going right now? I’ll give you three guesses…
Good article by Alan Wood
FROM HAYEK TO RUDD
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24543198-7583,00.html
I stopped reading about there
The problem I have with people who espouse free market theory is that they usually make all sorts of exceptions, all of these usually directly relating to what will favour those who are already institutionally powerful.
So, GP, which part of privatise profits and socialise losses do you like best.
No 756
I don’t like it at all.
Regarding Wood’s article, I think that confirms my earlier point about the Oz’s adherence to an (obsolete) ideology. Like old school communists, no amount of evidence will make them admit they are wrong.
This statement Dario rightly gagged at:
“The evidence in favour of this view is compelling, the present financial crisis notwithstanding”
That is a statement of opinion, not a fact. Show us this evidence? The fastest growing economies in recent decades, India and China, are largely capitalist, but with large interventions by government. They do NOT prove the Austrians right, but are evidence in favour of a mid-ground position, with private ownership of firms and govenment regualtion, oversight, provision of services and occaisionaly strategic investment.
IMO there are two extremes in political economy, Austrian school unregulated capitalism, and communism/socialism. Both are stupid. A balance between these two extremes is more rational economically, and leads to a healthier society.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/marx-exhumed-capitalism-buried/2008/10/22/1224351347386.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
No 759
Unregulated capitalism is a threat. And even Hayek recognises that the government cannot simply sit idly by otherwise its existence would be futile. There is a case for prudent regulation.
759
I am not at all familiar with the views of Soros, but I recall saying a very similar thing in response to one of GPs silly communist jibes, (earlier in this thread I think).
Clever me.
I have often been tempted to write a papaer along the theme of “Two Roads to Serfdom”. Hayek and others rightly reacted to the dangers of too powerful totalitarian states in the aftermath of nazism and communism. This is bad whether the government is extreme left wing or extrmem right wing. (The right wing today often forget that the nazis and fascists were extreme right wing; communists were not the only menace to free society in the 20th century.)
But weak or absent government is also just as big a threat as a too large government is. Serfdom itself evolved at a time when the Russian state was too weak to govern without the help of the boyars. Look at the nations today with governments too weak to control private forces (eg Nigeria, many in Latin america, Russia under Yeltsin). You would not wish to live in any of those places.
Vindicated, Darn. Well done!
760
[Unregulated capitalism is a threat}
Full marks for that concession GP
I think its fair to say that Wayne Swan should be removed from Treasury! while I accept their may be some different between Bank deposits and non-Bank deposit todays performance by Mr Swan shows he has little to no idea.
It is not the job of Centrelink to clean up the mess caused by the Government.
This same Government has spent weeks talking up the strenght of the Banking sector and I note since the deposit protection scheme was announcement was made I have not heard one Government minister repeat the earlier line about how safe our Banks are.
I think its time Wayne Swan comes completely clean, there is clearly a problem and if Swan is not willing to reveal it then way drop the line about how safe the Banks are.
I note the PM and Treasurer met with the big four, have they had similar meetings with the major non-leaning companies.
A forthnight ago I was still confident that Australia could avoid a recession, I am fast losing that view and its due to the behaviour of Mr Swan, he clearly knows something he isn’t letting on or has no idea what he is doing.
Wayne Swan needs to be questioned on this also how does he expect Centrelink to handle this situation, I think what may have happened is Mr Swan has been in a room with several seriouls banking types all suited up and have given him a worst case story and Swan has become scared.
If I was advising the PM I would advise that he calls all Financial sector CEOs into his office along with the Ken Henry and Glenn Stevens and work out a clear plan to move forward, this is not the time to hide behind procedures and corporate confidences.
Its time for leadership! Rudd, its time for you to take control of the debate, if not just call an election and we will find a leader that will lead.
Actually the comparison’s between communist apologists and capitalist apoligists are startling.
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, die hard apologists retorted by saying “Well the Soviet Union wasn’t actually communist”. Now with the financial crisis (Or crises) the free-marketeers are saying “Well it was actually a free market anyway”.
How obscure.
To quote myself, ‘I stopped reading about there’
lol @ 765
767
Me too Dario. My BS metre hit its high mark of the morning.
We have known for centuries that no-regulation leads to big problems just as too much regulation does.
We all know that many people should never have been given access to so much debt, is that the fault of the borrower! Yes, is that the fault of the Banks! Yes, is it the fault of the Government! Yes.
What is needed is a reality check, sadly history is repeating itself! How do we get the balance right and that is the question needed, for there is nothing wrong with wanting to have a nice house or live the life of your choice.
So instead of us stating the obvious, how can we get the balance right?
Dario! Why did you stop reading! are you saying he is doing a good job or is there another reason?
Oz! What was funny?
For what its worth I have always said the weak link in Rudd’s cabinet is Swan and I’m hoping I am not proven right.
770
Much better MB. A worthwhile contribution on a very complex problem. I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying.
765 – mexicanbeemer. Been listening too much to Neil Mitchell I would say.
Its not a complex problem! the functmental issue is how to service increasing debt levels on assest that have declinding values.
The Government have moved to protect the deposits held in Banks but unlike other counteries they have not placed any limit and the Government also appears to have not proposed a way to protect investments in non Bank sector companies e.g. Property Trusts.
Then there is the issue of Inter-Banking lending has dried up due to a lack of confidence.
Gary! I have not listened to Neil Mitchell in a good 10 years.
Do I need to point out that every person who has had restrictions placed on accessing their money will be angered at the Government.
I’m sure some of them voted for the ALP at the last Election.
Because it sounded like BS from the start
Do we need to point out that many of these funds have already been frozen before the governments decision?
Dario! I gathered that, but are you happy with how Wayne Swan is handling the situation?
How is this an issue of Swan’s making? You do realise that is a global phenomonon, or are you going to start blaming Swan for bringing down the global economy too? As I said before… it sounded like BS from the start
So far, happy enough
Well the banks have dropped interest rates, specifically citing the Government’s actions over the last few weeks.
Dario! I am aware that several of these funds have previous been frozen! I may be wrong but I think AXA first froze there in August!
The critisim I have of Wayne Swan is he would have known there would be some dislocation and my point is what steps has he taken to ensure one part is not greatly disadvantaged in the rush to protect the big four banks in which the Government has been pointing out are secure.
The Australian Banking sector was and is healthy so why come out with a policy that appears too be half done.
Dario! I’m more than understand the issues surrounding the global economic problems caused by the U.S. Sub-prime mortgage crisis.
No 778
Everyone already knows my position on Swan. But I will reiterate: he is an abomination.
MB
The task for the government is NOT to eliminate every risk in the system. That is impossible. Mortgage funds are NOT guaranteed, either in reality or implicitely, now or ever in the past. Hence Swan is CORRECT not to extend the guarantee to them.
The real task for the government is to calm the market, so that people are not motivated to make hasty decisions and put a run on funds such as what was the real cause of some fo these funds problems prior to the guarantee. They can do that by explaining to people that the measures put in place so far have worked; markets are stabilising and credit flows are returning to normal. See
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/20/better/
I’m glad Swan didn’t cave in to this stupid (self-serving) pressure. If they guaranteed mortgage funds it would set a precedent for all sorts of investment types, some of which are known to be high risk.
Oz, the rates tracker is fairly confident of another half a percent interest rate cut early next month too.
http://www.sfe.com.au/content/sfe/products/trt/targetratetracker.htm
MB 782
Why should Swan (or anyone else using my taxes) rush to protect parts of the investment market that are not essential to the functioning of the real world economy? Banks are in that category; mortgage funds are not. Share owners have taken a loss. We don’t plan to bail them out.
So you just blew your argument out of the water. Glad to hear it.
But you just admitted in the very same post that these funds have been freezing already! Do you read your entire posts before pushing the ‘Post Comment’ button?
Once again, for the dummies, other countries moved to protect bank deposits, so we had to as well, no matter what the ‘health’ of the banking system
Given the content of your posts, you’ll forgive me if I don’t believe you
Socrates! Thanks for that detailed rebuttal! I’m pleased to see at least one person saw where I was coming from
Hmmmm. He is on his feet and sentient, an improvement over the last person who had the job.
GP – you are full of surprises. You don’t like Swan?
HERE HERE SOCRATES!
HERE HERE!
This was always going to happen, happened last time will happen this time. You cannot regulate property values or returns which is really what people are after. If we hit a global recession commercial and industrial properties will decline in value and offer less returns. Asking the government to guarantee these is like asking them to guarantee a share price and dividend.
Much different than money. Money is the fundamental, it doesn’t change. Guarantee of $100 is still $100 tomorrow, it is a fixed know quantity and risk, it is not speculation.
Money is the blood of the economy, a property investment group is a non essential organ. Is it their potential losses they want insured or what? What is the govt supposed to guarantee?
I guess they could ask the govt to buy them out, nationalise the property trust industry. The government can then own the state.
Socrates! That is a good point, Why would the Government bail out Mortgage funds when the bank deposit scheme was covering bank deposits!
So can we take it that the non-banks are trying one on the Government for Trusts are clearly different to deposit accounts but as this potentially exposed another problem.
I would that thought that the fund managers would be explaining to the customers the situation also would these people taking their money out of trust be hit with fees and tax
Am i being cynical
Has ‘the world’s greatest treasurer” dared put his head up to make a valuable contribution to the argument? Oh Peter!!! Peter!!!
Thomas! The Government can (It wont) place every person on an Administrative order.
For a man who was once remarkably hard to decipher, Alan Greenspan is now as clear as an empty Lehman Brothers office.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/
on the hayek and communism thingo…
MB
You’re welcome. I agree its a potential problem but the solution really is just to tell peopel to be calm and patient. I have to say that is why I am so annoyed about Turnbull’s tactics lately. Creating a panic amoung the blue rinse set with money in these funds is against eveyone’s interests.
MB 794
Yes I think there is a strong element of trying things on at present. A lot of investmetn funds are going ot have to announce bad results shortly. It must be very tempting if they can get the government to underwrite their loses in the mean time. But that would be a bad outcome for the whole economy. If things stabilise those losses diminish. If they don’t the government will need every cent to pay for more stimulatory measures.
Turnbull should shut up about this. You will notice that even amoung the more right wing elements of the finance industry (as opposed to journos with nothing to lose and papers to sell) he is not getting many people jumping to his support at present. They know he is playing a dangerous game with their industry.
Thanks Zombie Mao
TP 793 Precisely.
Bussiness channel has had head of ANZ praising Rudd saying they have done the right thing. Also had report that one those failing companies are blaming it on the media reporting.
Good catrtoon in Illawarra Mercury today. picture of angry horse with steam coming out of nostrils being ridden by skeleton carring sword and shield with TURNBULL on it.He is shouting PANIC!
caption says “The political horseman of the Apocalypse” lol
Yes Vera if panic is the enemy then his name is Turnbull. Peter Hartcher summed it up nicely in the SMH:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/peter-hartcher/confidence-is-a-wise-investment/2008/10/23/1224351445258.html
It’ll be interesting to se how much financial support Turnbull gets from big business for his next election campaign if he keeps on like this.
To guarantee the mortgage funds as required by Turnbull and the OO would be to undo all the work done to stabilise the banking sector. Who would leave their money in a bank paying single digit interest when a govt was stupid enough to guarantee a mortgage fund paying 11%plus? There would be an immediate run on every financial institution in the land.
That is the genius of Turnbull!!
Some commentators still don’t get it. Here is Michael West in the same paper (SMH) banging the drum for the funds:
http://business.smh.com.au/business/waterloo-for-nonbanks-20081024-57n7.html
Who did he have lunch with? There is a bubble in property markets which means these guys were losing funds anyway. If they got a guarantee then there would be a run of funds from equity funds to them. So then do we guarantee equity funds? it would never end. What happens to the poor fund managers? Tough. They all took millions in fee income when times were good. Now they have to take the downside.
The only thing I agree with West on is that if banks get the guarantee, the government is entitled to apply fees to them and put rules on exec compensation. If banking is to be a low risk occupation (and it needs to be) then it shouldn’t get an 8 figure salary as reward.
At the time of the Pyramid collapse in Victoria it became apparent that many people do not understand the difference between banks and non-banks. They do not see that buying an investment product which brings a high rate of return must almost by definition carry a higher level of risk, because that is the nature of investment and indeed the nature of capitalism. When that risk does not pay off and investors lose their money, there is always a clamour from opportunist politicians and demagogic journalists for the government to use taxpayers’ money – money paid to the governement by people who have managed their affairs prudently – to bail out those who have been imprudent or unlucky. These demands are extremely hard to resist, but if this principle becomes established the whole system becomes unworkable. If there is no penalty for imprudent investing, then there can be no reward for prudent investment, and thus no market signals to guide investment into sound enterprise rather than unsound.
Michael 805
Exactly. As I hinted at earlier, it would almost be worth checking if Turnbull or others in shadowy cabinet have significant personal wealth invested in these funds. If so they shoudl declare a conflict of interest. It is clearly not in the national interest to guarantee every investment fund.
Adam
Good example. The more I think about it, someone should do some digging on the personal finances of thsoe demanding hte guarantees. Turnbull cannot be so stupid that he is unaware of the economic damage his comments are causing. Yet he persists. Someone should ask him some hard questions why.
HAHAHAHA.
“Turnbull in guarantee policy backflip”
“MALCOLM Turnbull has released his own seven-point plan to end the fallout from the Government’s bank guarantee scheme, performing his own policy backflip by proposing a $100,000 cap above which a voluntary fee would be charged.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24545419-601,00.html
Government – 35723896264347347
Turnbull – 0
It would be like guaranteeing that all bets on the races will be winners. If we are to have capitalism, we have to accept the logic of capitalism, which is that there must be winners and losers, at least relatively.
So I hope Turnbull and Co now take this all seriously, that it truly is not a time to be playing any games that affect confidence. And the community need to not only have confidence in the banks but also in the Prime Minister of the day, that he will deal effectively with the problem and will look after the best interest of the people as best can.
Leave the government and the financial community and other governments sort out what they think is the best solution.
The finance community if it is truly worried ought to come out with a clear message of confidence in the government and to the Opposition to that it is hurting not helping.
Expect many more in the days to come. The OO & Oppo have ballsed this up royally.
Turnbull is like a kid playing with matches in a gunpowder factory.
RAMS Home Loans has cut home loan interest rate again by 20 basis points.
http://news.smh.com.au/business/rams-home-loans-cuts-home-variable-rate-20081024-57xl.html
Yep voters will turn against Rudd in droves (damn rates keep dropping because of him)
And he’s not using our taxes to bail out those millionaires losing their dosh in investment funds.
as Socrates said somwhere in the middle of Hayek and Marx
some government interference/protection
not near-zero and not total government ownership/control.
Still Swan is a goose
Because the Oppo says so? Why did Turnbull vote for the unlimited guarantee then, and why now is he proposing it himself in his own plan???
I think anyone putting shite on Swan should realise that he is not acting alone here and without advice. Just remember the Reserve Bank, Treasury and most economists agree with this action. Are they all geese?
I notice Talcum didn’t have the guts to release his 7 pt plan while House of Reps was sitting.
As well as Government’s around the world who have guaranteed deposits AFTER we did.
zombie mao
Thanks for the kind precise of my comments on political theory.
However I wasn’t trying to suggest Swan was a goose. Maybe his words were a bit undiplomatic but I interpreted his centrelink comments to mean a bit flipantly, “let them eat cake”. That is, NO – the government won’t guarantee every form of risk investment, but it will support those in genuine need if required.
Also as GB said, Swans policy position has been in line with agreements reached with governments all over the OECD. We were one of the first to act, but still did so along teh lines first (and correctlY) suggested by Gordon Brown. Despite the posturing of the opposition on Kevin 747, it was essential that our leaders had agreed joint action with other govenments on this. Financial markets are international so if we had an inconsistent policy position it would have hurt us badly. Conversely, if we were too generous, foreign investors would have unloaded their riskier products onto our market.
I for one am fully aware that Wayne Swan is not acting alone! the question I raised is and perhaps I wasn’t clear enough but I have a gut feel that someone somewhere is not being completely upfront.
Dario is right to point out that I look hypocritical in referring to funds being frozen mainly with reference to AXA having earlier froze a fund in August but this time they have said its due to Government and this was the point I was making for the customers of these Financial products are now being told their funds are being frozen due to Government policy.
I’m aware that if the Government had not offered something to the domestic Banks that this could have lead to people withdrawing funds from Banks and moving the funds to overseas Banks.
Regarding Government protection of Trust and the like setting a potential precedence, I’m aware off some if not all the State Governments have Offices of Public Trustees which offer various products, some of which are protected by Government but this is done due to the nature of their Clients.
I don’t see why Swan needed to mention Centrelink at all. These people are still receiving their monthly payments, it’s only their capital which they can’t withdraw right now, so no-one is going to be out of pocket in the sense that they can’t buy food or pay their rent.
MB
The fund managers aren’t being up front! Neither are some banks! These derivative deals haven’t all dissappeared into thin air – no doubt there are many financial bodies in Australia and overseas that still hold large volumes of them that may be worth effectively zero. (After Lehmans collapse in the US some were being settled for nine cents in the dollar). That would be very embarrassing for a whole group of investment “experts” to have to admit that they have lost a lot of their clients money. So of course they all want to get the government to guarantee them before revealing the extent of their loss. We’d be mugs to agree to that; so would Swan. Therefore the government needs to guarantee the parts of the economy that are needed for day-to-day business activity to continue (banks), but not the rest. That is what they have done.
As for the government, no doubt they are privy to some information that they don’t want to release, for fear of not alarming people furhter. The best thing to happen right now economically is for people to just continue on with their normal day-to-day activity, so that the “real world” economy continues. Then the finance markets will also settle donw and losses will be minimised. There will inevitably be losses in investments, because there was an assett price bubble.
This has nothing to do with public trustees.
Thank you Adam! That is the reason I critised him for I felt it was a poor response! Had he used the words you used then I for one would not have had a go at him.
I think Swan saw it as a “just in case”. He’s not to know what some may do.
Well of course they would say that
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2398597.htm
The ‘media attention’ by the way was the article in The Australian, and the Opposition running with it
So now you think he should be sacked just because of a ‘poor response’?
Socrates 824! Brillant comment! I hope the Government starts to explain it in the words you used rather than “just go to Centrelink.
At the end of the day while the global economy is looking bad the only thing Government should be doing is ensuring basic are covered.
Earlier some reacted as those what I wrote was some sort iof ill informed rant but in doing so I echoed what will be floating around voterland with that the Government needs to be absolutely clear as the situation and people like Malcolm Turnbull should be condemmed if they try to cloud the issues.
Because while I understand the views put forward in comments like 824 and other comments from Adam and co but many people out there in Voterland do not.
I don’t see how Turnbull’s policy can be construed as a backflip. He has been talking about $100,000 guarantee for the last month.
No 828
I think he should be sacked for his immeasurable incompetence.
Dario! I said Wayne Swan should be removed from Treasury if the funds were frozen due too his policies now from the responses it would appear that the fund managers are pushing their own barrow (not surprising) and that the reality is the funds being frozen have little to do with the Government policy.
hahahahahahahahahahaha
No 827
Blaming the media is a cop-out excuse for what was effectively policy on the run by the government.
No, you said this:
Is a backflip policy on the run too, or does that get an exemption because it was uttered by a Liberal member?
I don’t see how Turnbull’s policy can be construed as a backflip. He has been talking about $100,000 guarantee for the last month.
Indeed he has! But his new policy would give a guarantee for deposits over $100,000 if they… wait for it… paid a feed!
What I don’t understand about either plan, if the fee kicks in at 100,000 or 1 million, is what’s stopping someone from breaking a 1 million dollar deposit into two $500,000 investment and thus avoiding having to pay a fee?
No 836
What are you blathering about? Turnbull was talking about a $100k guarantee long before the government countenanced an unlimited guarantee. Indeed, they were only considering a $20k guarantee prior to the apex of the crisis.
There has been no backflip.
No 837
Yes, but the key difference Oz is that his fee would be voluntary whereas Swan wants a compulsory fee to be paid.
That is excelty what I said and the full context was three fund managers frozed withdrawals from mortgage and property investiment funds citing the moving of funds from those funds to Bank deposits due to the Government’s policy.
It would now appear that the Funds in question were not being completely upfront about the reasoning, I was also critical of Wayne Swan referring people to Centrelink again if his policy caused funds to be frozen then he deserves critism but it now appears there is more to the story.
So you acknowledge that Turnbull has brought his policy closer to Swan’s after spending days and days in the media and in parliament deriding it.
They can cite whatever they want to cite but that doesn’t make it true. Challenger’s shareprice had bottomed out, they were on the verge of collapse and they have frozen funds weeks before the government announced any guarantee. Babcock and Brown is virtually bankrupt. They’ve been flogging off assets left, right and centre. Now the management has found a scapegoat in the government.
So MB, are you no longer calling for Swan’s head?
I love watching GP squirm
No 841
Oz, Turnbull derided the policy on two grounds:
1. It should not have been unlimited, and even the $1 million cap is still too high. Hence Turnbull’s $100,000 cap proposal.
2. Any deposit above the cap should not be subject to a compulsory fee (as Swan wants), unless the depositor desires the protection of a government guarantee. If they don’t want the additional protection, they should not be charged the fee.
That’s the essence of Turnbull’s criticism.
Generic Person: Aren’t you on your last warning, one more personal insult and William punts you permanently from the board? I can’t wait!
In other news, Nathan Rees epitomises the gross imbecility of the NSW ALP by pronouncing the umpteenth delay in the North West Metro, instead bringing forward a useless metro in the Sydney CBD, an area already well-served by train services.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/4b-plan-for-new-cbd-metro/2008/10/24/1224351511515.html
No 846
Funny thing is evan14, I was brought back by popular demand when I was last banned….
Dario! Wayne can stay for now!!
He accused the guarantee of ‘dislocating the financial market’. Giving guarantees to deposits over $100,000, which constitute 40% of all deposits, voluntary or mandatory, shows that he agrees with the principle. Clearly he would not support guarantees of a certain figure if he believed they would ‘dislocate the market’ which means he no longer believes that and his ’strongest’ attack against Swan is effectively blunt.
Anyway I think what’s REALLY going on is that because Swan said yesterday that the Government is not in fact set in stone about the mandatory fee and they are currently discussing that with the regulators etc., Turnbull’s trying to get the jump on the government by predicting part of their policy. Not the first time he’s tried that.
What I don’t get about this is that there is already a light rail running from Central to Rozelle!!! I’ve been on the thing! What the hell is Rees on about?
Oh, and nice attempt at a subject change by the way GP
Well serviced? Are you on crack?
One heavy rail city loop for Australia’s biggest and most populous CBD does not equal ‘well serviced’. The Labor government has a huge amount of flaws but the metro plan for an actual METRO area (As opposed to the outer-suburbs as was the case with the North-West Metro) is an excellent idea. As is the plan to implement a light rail service linking the Green Square development with the city.
I still think Lindsay Tanner would make a better Treasurer.
Whilst this thread is on Poll numbers I predict the next one could be Interesting still a massive lead to the ALP but it will be Interesting to see how the Government is travelling.
Turnbull is advocating a VOLUNTARY fee for deposits over $100 000?? So, under his plan its:
Thanks for the absolute guarantee on my now VERY safe and secure deposit of
(some arbitrarily large $ figure) during all this turmoil. But the fee? Sorry, i have lots of other vital obligations like buying the new Porsche for the missus and the kids trip to Europe for Ski classes this year so i’ll give that a miss for now thanks mate!
Imacca! you forgot to meantion paying the damage bill from your kids muck-up day! anyone for Xavier College.
Oz, Rozelle does have a light rail to Central already
Anyone got a link to exactly what Turnbulls come out with as his plan to save us all??
Even if its just more hysterical rantings it would be good to have a look at and see just how far over the edge he is.
Rudd is ignoring Turnbull and his plans, and is getting on with building confidence with small business.
http://news.smh.com.au/national/pm-rudd-announces-small-business-package-20081024-5816.html
The emerging truth seems to be that it is NOT Rudd and Swan who have talked the economy – especially the non-bank financial institutions economy – down. It is Turnbull.
By drawing attention to what he described as the dangers of guaranteeing banks and not non-bank financial institutions, he has caused a run on them.
The man’s mad. He’s a danger to us all.
Rudd saved our economy by guaranteeing banks and sorting the details out later. Turnbull looked around for something bad that might happen as a result and made it happen.
Shame on him.
Am waiting eagerly for the next Newspoll (are we due for it next week on Tuesday??). Not so much to see if Turnbulls ratings go down, but if Rudds and the ALP TPP goes up.
Will be interesting to see if this business of managed funds freezing peoples coin has an affect one way or another as that seems to be the only really defined negative aspect of the governments actions (for some people) so far.
I’m also a bit confused by the reports on this. Is it peoples ability to be pulling their capital out of the funds that has been frozen, or have they stopped paying out their regular disbursments (which is day to day income for some of their fund members)??
MB
Yes I think you have the gist of my view. Swan’s comment was a little undiplomatic and unnecessary as Adam said. But his policy decisions have been correct.
So Rudd goes straight for Libreal breadbasket…small business.
I can hear the screeches of pain already
LOUIS CHRISTOPHER, ANALYST, ADVISER EDGE:
….However, given the recent media attention over the past 48 hours, well now it has become quite a problem, and redemptions have certainly accelerated.
Bigwig from one of the larger funds, Perpetual, made the same point on the ABC Midday News. The thing is that the bank guarantees were announced nearly 2 weeks ago, so the only reason for the flood of redemption in the last 2 days is the Opposition+media scaremongering. I know it would be very difficult, but I wonder if the ambo chasers at Slater and Gordon couldn’t find a way of holding these wankers to account in a class action?
I heard Hank Jongen the GM of Centrelink interviewed on ra