The Australian reports that this fortnight’s Newspoll has Labor’s lead at 54-46, down from 55-45 last time. However, Kevin Rudd’s preferred prime minister rating is up five points to 59 per cent, while Malcolm Turnbull is down one point to 25 per cent. Essential Research has Labor’s lead up from 59-41 to 61-39 in its weekly survey, which is Labor’s second successive two point increase. Also included are questions on leadership approval and attitudes to the financial crisis.
UPDATE: Graphic here. An interesting set of figures: despite going backwards on two-party, Labor’s primary vote is up three points to 44 per cent, the Greens having returned to earth from 13 per cent to 9 per cent. Kevin Rudd’s personal ratings are well up: satisfaction up nine to 65 per cent and dissatisfaction down six to 26 per cent, his best figures since May and June respectively. He’s also taken a commanding lead over Turnbull as best leader to handle the economy, up nine since September 19-21 to 50 per cent with Turnbull down eight to 35 per cent. Also included are questions on the carbon pollution reduction scheme, which over half now believe should be at least delayed.
871 Comments
From previous thread – Turnbull has held his own???
Well good for him. Pity he ain’t playing solitaire.
GP @ 1806 (on previous thread)
“Turnbull has held his own.”
that is the problem … maybe he should get his hand off it for a while
Congrats.
C’mon ShowsOn – you’re better than that!
Forgive my naiveity, but there’s an awful gap between an increase to 61/39 and a drop to 54/46.
Something is screwed up somewhere.
Keelty has led to Australians lacking confidence in it’s Federal Police and should have resigned a long time ago to restore the public trust. Rudd should have forced him out by now.
No 2
Maybe you should change your offensive name! Obviously you tacitly support mass extermination of innocents….
If I owned the newsagency in Point Piper I wouldn’t be delivering The Australian to a certain resident tomorrow
Soc
As I had predicied on the previous thread the wingnuts are on the rise
your quote about hawke may be prescient in more ways than one.
GP
yes I agree talcum has held his own,but his tactics are dubious.
Is this what the fibs are to become?
Rofl Bushfire Bill, thanks for pointing that out.
It’s possible that when you toss in the margins of error they meet somewhere in the middle.
No 5
Essential Research is way out of whack and almost certainly has a pro-ALP skew.
ShowsOn, see Article V of Comment Moderation Guidelines.
Liberals in the political wilderness for a decade.
Point Piper has no newsagencies, nor any shops at all. Totally “residential”.
So the LNP % has increased, while Malcolm’s PPM has gone down… good thing Turnbull is such a team man, no doubt he’ll be extatic
Thank you for recording it forever!
Especially Young Liberals wearing glasses.
GP @ 7
“Maybe you should change your offensive name! Obviously you tacitly support mass extermination of innocents….”
Maybe you should change your offensive gravatar/logo! Obviously you tacitly support mass extermination of innocents….
I don’t get up there often from Nar Nar Goon
And the Preferred PM rating shows that even Turnbull cannot mass the equivelent support from even the Liberal primary vote, like Brenda Nelson.
Quite pathetic and amusing at the same time really.
No 9
Gusface, his tactics are not dubious. Though censoring the Internet certainly is. Conjob, anyone?
William feel free to delete my reference to it!!
He’s hurting the brand!
SNIP: Nothing comment deleted – The Management.
@15 we don’t know that yet, all we know is the 2pp which is calculated on the pref divisions of the last election.
Primary vote for either could have gone up or down on only a 1% 2pp move.
No fair! What standing order does your post transgress!?
No 22
I’d say Conroy is doing much more significant damage to the ALP brand.
For what!? Why should it bother me if you find things offensive? I thought you were a liberal who realises that individuals pursuing their own good lives are bound to come in conflict with each other.
oneof the things that most forget is that prior to rudd,people voted howard
partly the man,partly the policies.
Rightly or wrongly some of the plebs are going to be swayed back to what they feel safe with.
I expect the polls to stabilise in the 53-56 range from now on
25 – From the Guidelines Article V:
I think we’ve got there already!! (obviously a hang over from the over 1800!! on the last thread)
The article points out that The Green vote has “stabalised”. Presumably that means it’s dropped down from the high of 13 back to ~9. Which could explain the 2PP drop and possibly even a rise in the Labor primary.
@26
That’s right, criticise a government minister rather than the Liberal leader.
The Liberal leader gets polled. The government minister doesn’t. Swallow that huge lump in your throat, realise the Libs are consigned to the political wilderness for a decade, and move on. There’s many hobbies out there!
Bestial 2000 post threads are undesirable.
Have to admit that i am a litle surprised that Turnbulls PPM number didnt drop further. After his behavior over the last week or so he deserved to be crushed like the bug that he is.
So this means that the majoritory of Rudds increase in support must have come from previously “dont know”??
If Rudd is picking them up then thats a real problem for the Libs. If they ever want to be back in power they need more than their rusted ons.
Has anyone got an idea of the “bias” of Essential Reseach’s polls. I mean in the context of how some polls just seem to generally favor one side of politics or another.
Not yet – wait till it gets close to legislation. It’s still at testing stage etc. Lot of water yet to go under the bridge. If it really does cause an 86% slow down – fuhgheddaboudit.
It’ll be a “we tried, but unfortunately the technology is not there yet”
No 31
Why should I criticise the Liberal leader when is performance has been exemplary?
The same cannot be said for his deputy, however.
@35
So exemplary, he can’t even get the same level of Preferred PM support as the Lib primary vote, like Brenda Nelson?
Quite the lulz.
*his not is in No 35.
William
any comment on the disparity between newspoll and essential research?
William in the thread header noted:
So all those bitter Young Liberals posting to News Ltd and ABC blogs, still feeling the pain of their election loss almost 12 months on, all their unimaginative and trite repetitions of the “KRudd” epithet, have failed to sway anybody.
Johnny really dumped a bundle onto them with WorkChoices eh!
Dunno about exemplary, GP.
Decent, but not superb.
Gusface
Yes I just saw your wingnut reference on the previous thread and have to agree.
I would be more optimistic for Labor in the long term than this result might show. Turnbull has effectively burnt his bridges on any bipartisan approach to the economic crisis in the past week. So if the guarantees and stimulus package work then Rudd and Swan will eb riding high and he will be left in the cold. If they aren’t then Labor can modify them, because they always said they would respond to circumstances. If there is in the end still a world wide recession including here then they can legitimately point to Turnbull as one of the causes of the panic plus there is the legitimate worry that in a tightening economic, supporting the party that still dreams of workchoices is not a good move for the average “battler”. That and we’ll just have to go back to some good old fashioned Keynsian pump-priming, the right wingers be damned.
No 36
bob1234, these ratings are pretty inconsequential when we’re two years away from an election.
I try not to read rules, they break my delicate concentration.
You’re an honest man G.P. She is a joke who should be replaced with that 15 year old Greg Hunt.
Turnbull’s figures, like the man, are careening from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Speaking of the misuse of words: the verb is to careen, not career.
Once again The Australian has got it wrong. How do their subbies keep their jobs?
Are we in agreeance on that?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24560863-12377,00.html
Ironic that someone who cares naught for polls is such a prolific poster on a website called “The Poll Bludger”.
No 41
Socrates, the Government has been avoiding Turnbull’s calls for bipartisanship ever since he ascended to the leadership. So it’s not just Turnbull burning bridges.
No 43
No, I think Tony Abbott should be deputy leader. I actually had quite a good laugh with him on Saturday at a Liberal function.
Oh dear. Turnbull’s call was basically a demand that he be made P.M. in a war cabinet.
Watching Lateline now and Turnbull is still playing the fear campaign. Rudd and Swan should keep pointing out that he is the fear merchant. First because its true, and second because it will paint him into a corner.
Swan is holding firm on not caving into the property funds on a guarantee. Good. It is the right decision and it makes him look more consistent and firm. Be compassionate yes (assist those who can’t get their funds) but don’t be stupid. These demands are purely self serving.
No 48
ShowsOn, that’s complete rubbish and you know it.
No 44
Agreeance is a word, whether you like it or not BB.
Dear G.P.
I didn’t write post 48.
From,
ShowsOn
No 49
Socrates, telling people to go to Centrelink is not exactly compassionate in a situation where their life savings are frozen. Swan is bumbling fool, a claim reassuringly supported by Alan Kohler.
Soc
my fear is that rudd will ‘carry the can” for this
A lot of subliminal damage is being done
and I know its not rudds fault before anyone starts!
No 52
On my end it says you did write No 48.
It sounds like a reasonable short term solution to me.
#52
He didn’t tell them to go to “Cash Converters”
No 54
Yes, it is entirely Rudd’s fault. Policy on the run is inappropriate for a government with access to thousands of advisers.
GP I trust you meant No. 47 as I wasn’t particularly disagreeing with you.
Agree there are multiple causes of the fraying of bipartisanship, but as they say in the school playground, he started it. I don’t say Turnbull has performed badly as leader of the opposition, but I do think he has pushed teh fear campaign much to hard, and is taking a risk in that. I agree with you on Bishop, as much as I’d say teh same for Labor with Conroy. Both are a liaibility.
52 is one of your own posts! You’re being filtered! Call the cops!
No 56
Yeah, a short term method of putting the budget into deficit! Ah, we’re back to the bad old days of big spending, deficit inducing Labor governments.
BB@44
I thought carreening was something you do to you ships hull?
ie: beaching it, hauling it onto its side and getting the crew to scrub, chip and break off the smelly and undesirable growths that have attached themselves to your timbers and are in some cases chewing the essential structure of that which supports you to bits.
Hmm, maybe carreening is what the Fibs SHOULD be up to at the moment.
William what the hell is going on? Why is there a discrepancy on what various people can see here?
GP
Existential questions are not allowed
But Howard did it all the time! The Border Protection Bill 2001 is the most horrendous example of policy on the run in the history of the Commonwealth:
http://0-www.austlii.edu.au.prospero.murdoch.edu.au/au/legis/cth/bill/bpb2001212/
It even contained such hilarious anti-democratic provisions such as Section 10:
Stick that up your due process and smoke it.
Hey GP watch Lateline Business now
Gusface
In the short term you may be right, but in the long term I’m not so sure. The longer Rudd and Swan look calm and responsive the better they look as a leadership team. If the rest of the world are in recession next year and we are not, they will still be looking pretty good IMO. The trick now is to manage expectations, and reassure peopel that they will “see it through”. This needs to be a logn term strategy. There are actually some great long term opportunities in the “nation building” category coming out of this. We still haven’t seen what is coming out of the brought forward infrastructure Austalia money yet. Plus the pensioner handouts don’t happen till November/December. There is still some upside ahead of them IMO.
GP @ 1062
What do you mean?
@42/GP
You’re completely ignoring the point and you know it. Turnbull’s Preferred PM cannot even match the Liberal primary vote (or even coalition primary vote). 2 years out from an election or not, it shows he cannot even match the level of support his party has.
No 65
I can only reiterate the comments from the greatest Prime Minister of all time, John Howard:
“We will decide who comes into this country and the circumstances in which they come”
“Why is there a discrepancy on what various people can see here?”
Rose coloured glasses when viewing poll data possibly.
No 66
I’ll watch it online later.
Winston @ 2053
His boring posts are being deleted.
He’s hurting the brand.
So is Julie Bishop.
GP = Mr Magoo
I thought Liberals cared about due process? I can’t believe you are defending:
Julie Bishop = Little Miss Echo
Dear me, all this angst about minor fluctuations in polls two years out from the next elections. “Polling is not an exact science” (quote, me, 2007 passim). William, could you engrave that in letters of fire at the top of each page?
All that matters is that Labor is still polling well above the vote it got a year ago. A year into his term, Rudd and Labor are more popular then they were when they were elected, GFC notwithstanding. On that cheery note, I am going to bed and so should all of you lot.
No 59
I endorse Abbott for deputy Leader.
Soc
more tahn most I fervently hope that rudd is able to exceed expectations.
just my hobby is reading the tea leaves and at teh moment rudds message is being tarnished by turnbulls anti-economy rhetoric.
joe public doesnt discern the nuances and i thinka % have drifted -more of fear than logic
long term I feel the fibs are still gone,just the “fat” on labors lead will be less
No 74
redwombat = dullard
One would almost think GP’s AWA stipulates that he is to be paid according to the number of posts he makes to this blog. Hey, GP, does your “agreement” allow you toilet breaks? Even 10 minutes would be a relief for the rest of us.
GP @ 62
GP – I see #52 as one of your comments as well (if that helps, probably not)
Mr B?
No 75
It’s actually good drafting because it prevents complex legalistic arguments as to whether the Act contradicts other Acts.
Creationists are excluded from that the prestigious Deputy Leader of the Opposition office.
But I’ll email him your endorsement as a gag.
Cuppa it’s always a pleasure when I cause you discomfort.
83
ROFL
Poor GP, not even a lousy toilet break in his SerfChoices “agreement”.
@82
The only thing worse than Abbott as deputy leader is Abbott as leader. He’s been a joke for a long time, furthered at last year’s election campaign, and even more so with his extensive commentary on Nelson/Costello/Turnbull. He’d do well to keep his mouth shut permanently, or retire alltogether.
74 was my post!
WHAT! The Criminal Code is an act of parliament. If that bill passed and became an act, even criminal actions by the federal police couldn’t of been reviewed by a court!
COME ON, border protection is one thing, but that act was just extremist nonsense than challenged all the rights and liberties that our whole country is based on.
I thought you believed in LIMITED government, not giving government agents unfettered power to do absolutely anything they liked while aboard a SIEV, without any chance for judicial review.
Laws are there to protect the weak as well sometimes G.P.
Abbott is honest about what he thinks about members of his party and his personal beliefs.
Kevin Rudd is not. He pretends to believe in government for all Australians, but actually believes in censorship for all Australians.
#87
Told ya …..Mr Magoo
ShowsOn, I have no idea what is going on with the post numbering….William can you shed some light please?
—-
That aside, judicial review is guaranteed under our constitution ShowsOn.
But that bill would’ve given unfettered power to government agents to do whatever they liked while operating within the authority of that act.
That is unlimited government nonsense that I thought a true liberal would be shocked about.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely G.P.
I don’t mind Abbott anymore, because he isn’t actually a very effective politician.
If he left parliament then his safe seat may be handed over to a Liberal with more talent. So it is kind of amusing having him hang around.
Conroy wants to shield our children from pornography. The Liberals want our children to be made serfs.
GP – who do you see as Author of #12?
93 – Cuppa… I hope your joking
Spam Box, I see William Bowe as author of #12.
SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
96 – Ah, ok, there goes that theory then
I think you are right that it has something to do with the very first post of this thread being deleted, not just edited.
It is quoted at #4, which for some people may appear as #5
Ah I’ve found the culprit causing this mess to my numbering. William, can you please approve my post @ 47, or delete it altogether?
I blame Obama, Ayers, Rudd, Whitlam and that pantless communist Humphrey B Bear.
Cuppa, where was Conroy’s conscience when he labelled opposition to his Great Firewall as kiddie fiddlers?
SNIP: Pain-in-the-arse comment deleted – The Management.
Europe is on the brink of a currency meltdown.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/3260052/Europe-on-the-brink-of-currency-crisis-meltdown.html
Will this help the Ozzie go up so I can get some more cheap DVDs?
No 106
I was quite enjoying buying cheap Blu-Rays from Amazon until our dollar crashed to 60c
Future generations of employees would endure reduced pay, conditions, bargaining power and job security if the Liberals have their way.
Most reasonable people deliberately try to leave a better world for their children. You could say it’s part of what makes us human. But not Liberals; their extremist ideology requires they leave a worse, more insecure workplace regime for their employee children than they themselves inherited from earlier generations.
It’s a vote to turn the clock back, with their own descendants as the losers.
Where is your conscience, GP, when you support reduced pay, working conditions and living standards for your own descendants?
I’m not blu-ray compliant yet. I regret not making a few more big DVDPacific orders when the AUD$ was in the 90 US cent range. There just wasn’t a lot I wanted to buy. I’ve got an order of new releases that will ship in a couple of weeks. It is going to cost about 25% more than when I placed the order.
No 109
Cuppa you argument is emotional not factual. Employment actually increased under workchoices.
You’re confusing a proximate cause with an ultimate cause.
You should get on the Blu-Ray bandwagon ShowsOn. Image quality is great + plus there’s a lot of extra value if you use a PlayStation 3 as the player.
There’s just not much out on the format that I want to buy at this stage. I mainly watch films made before 1970.
Also, my TV doesn’t do 1080 progressive, only interlaced. So I wouldn’t get the full HD image anyway.
Don’t misrepresent what I said. I’m not talking about the amount of employment. (You could have full employment – 0% unemployment – in a pure slave economy.) I am talking about pay, conditions and job security, deliberately undermined by SerfChoices, with you as an enthusiastic proponent, knowingly supporting the deterioration of employment conditions for your own descendants.
Ok, so remember I was asking why money WOULDNT flow to banks given they have positive returns, and shares/ mortgage funds are negative?
Well dig this: most of these funds froze BEFORE this month. That’s right. Check this list http://www.maynereport.com/articles/2008/08/28-0958-6879.html
Which only goes to show what a completely irresponsible TURKEY Turnbull is. He’s spun this for all its worth, and its all a CROCK!! He should be drawn and quartered by the media.
These funds were toast way before the guarantee. Read the list.
No 113
There’s no perceptible difference between 1080i and 1080p.
I particularly like Marlon Brandon’s old films, Caesar and Mutiny on the Bounty in particular.
No 114
My pay increased under Workchoices. Only unionists think that it is impossible to bargain with employers on an individual basis.
@97 – GP
“Cuppa you’re full of nonsense. Come back when you have a real argument devoid of infantile blather.”
Pot… kettle… black…
Isn’t it quiet around here when the kids are playing nicely together?
I think GP has shown us that, like most Libs, he longs for the day when Serfchoices can be brought back to life and advanced even further. (I know GP we have Serfchoices lite now …yeah, yeah.)
Yeah got those and love them both. In fact I have 20 Brando films on DVD.
A blu-ray of Mutiny on the Bounty would be awesome. Warner released it on HD-DVD, so surely they will do a blu-ray soonish.
I’ll probably get How the West Was Won first. Warner released it on a format called Smilebox that emulates watching it on a deeply curved Cinerama screen:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews40/how_the_west_was_won_blu-ray.htm
They didn’t release it Smileboxed on DVD, blu-ray only.
Says Mr Magoo. Only a Liberal would be so selfish and short-sighted as to think it’s only about them personally here and now. “I’m OK, bugger everyone else, including my own descendants.” Humans think of their children and the generations after. They don’t want them to inherit reduced pay, conditions and bargaining power courtesy of the Liberals miserable ideology.
No 122
Actually there was a long-running saga of threads on Whirlpool that detailed the war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. I said BR would win all along.
The PS3 was the Trojan horse.
But yes, HD Brando films are always worth the money.
Cuppa, stop serving them up red cordial while the little darlings are temporarily so engrossed in the movies.
GP just shows that like all Liberals, no matter what they say, they still believe in full deregulation of the workplace.
Despite WorkChoices creating further regulation.
SNIP: Abusive comment deleted – The Management.
No 126
Yes, notwithstanding some simple minimum standards, the labour market should be fully deregulated.
@127
“Yes, notwithstanding some simple minimum standards, the labour market should be fully deregulated.”
Full of contradiction. But that’s been your life story on poll bludger eh?
And further, do we support Howard’s WorkChoices with increased regulation, or do we not support it, instead supporting deregulation?
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
Now i’m a Greens supporter, but I see Christine Milne is on a flight of fantasy again. Different times, different situation, well-entrenched major parties.
Green government on the way in Canberra: senator – http://www.theage.com.au/national/green-government-on-the-way-in-canberra-senator-20081027-59ti.html
AUSTRALIA is in sight of a major political realignment that will see the Greens form government in Australia, the party’s climate change spokeswoman says.
In a speech to the Sydney Institute last night, Christine Milne said there was a “real prospect” the Greens could broaden its support base as the community embraced the need for a “green new deal”.
She said the Nationals were in decline the Liberals in a state of flux and Labor was disappointing its voters.
“Just as Labor began with a few individuals being elected and then achieved balance of power and then opposition and government, so too it will be for the Greens. We are on our way to government,” she said.
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
I think Christine forgot to take her medication.
On that note, night all
See you all tomorrow, hopefully we’ll have something better to bitch about
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
Workchoices reduced unemployment and kept inflation under control.
SerfChoices was an unmandated attack on the pay, conditions, job security, bargaining power and living standards of innocent, trusting employees. It was planned to destroy workers’ unions in this country, to thereby deprive employees of their only form of organised advocacy, and undermine the financial viability of the Labor Party, for the entrenchment advantage of the miserable Liberals, eroding the viability of the two-party system.
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Erm, the Greens WILL be forming a government in the ACT. Probably this week. With another party, I grant you, but nonetheless., its a big moment.
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.
This is not a pipe.
—U
OK Magritte, let me guess, it’s an em dash and a capital letter u?
NewsPoll linkage:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll28oct.pdf
Still a pretty good result for Turnbull during a time when the PM is guaranteeing everything and throwing around $10.4 billion of pork.
When Turnbull’s Preferred PM rating is not even matching the coalition, or even the Liberal primary vote, it means he is not even gaining the support of the Liberal base – let alone any swing or minor party voters.
That’s not a good result for a party leader regardless of the situation.
You can attempt to sugar coat it all you want GP, or maybe you even believe it. The Liberals are consigned to a decade in opposition.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll28oct.pdf
WOW, check out Rudd’s satisfaction/dissatisfaction rating! Amazing! It hasn’t been that good for many polls!
Also check out the ‘who is best to handle the economy’…
Rudd goes from 41% to 50%
Turnbull falls from 43% to 35%
Ahh, the merchant of venice is being beaten at his own game. Quite the amusement.
In case you haven’t worked it out by now: when you have a comment in moderation, the comment appears on your screen along with the notice that the comment is awaiting moderation. This comment isn’t there for everybody else, which means subsequent comments are numbered one higher as you see them.
Both of these polls show Rudd’s personal ratings continuing to increase markedly right across the board, so there can be no doubt at all that he is wining with the electorate and they have already developed increased confidence in him.
Turnbull it seems has gotten everyone scratching their heads and not knowing what to make of him. He has hardly changed, has lots of undecideds. They certainly don’t want him as PM or financial manager. I think people don’t understand what he is on about or what point he is trying to make since he changes his position so much. However it appears that more people are going to jump to Rudd and Labor.
From memory when we have had polls where Rudd’s personal ratings had improved but not the TPP the next polls showed an increase in the TPP. As though we are watching people half way through jumping over.
The last batch of polls has showed Rudd increasing his personal standing even when already high. Surely this will be followed by a few point jump in the polls shortly.
I also get the feeling that Turnbull’s behavior is getting close to the line of revealing his true character. The sinister slippery side may rise to the surface occasionally and the negative attacks whilst they might get a few points off Rudd eventually may also critically stain himself. No wonder the OO and others media are doing their hardest to help Turnbull, he would have no hope otherwise.
I reckon without all this latest B/S from Turnbull and his media remoras the ALP may have picked a few more points.
Labor just needs to refer to Turnbull’s behavior as sinister or slippery barrister stuff just to put the idea into people’s heads then they can observe Turnbull.
Offtopic levity
For fans of Clarke & Dawe, here is Brian Dawe back in his pop star days
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qk_zIxcP_7o
Further offtopicness: Frank + other Westralians, if you’re interested in meeting / bothering / shouting at Allanah MacTiernan, she’s at Oak Lawn, UWA, 1pm. Meet ‘n’ greet thing, put on by UWA Young Labor. I aim to stand out by (a) having voted for her in her own seat, and (b) the shirt. Meet me, you’ll understand.
A propos of the past few weeks, it looks like the people have got it right. they understand that Rudd/Swann have mostly got it right, if not always at the first go, and if not always in the detail. But, Rudd/Swan have mostly got the big picture right, which is all about confidence. Turnbull/Bishop have mostly got it wrong, often at the first go, because they don’t get the confidence bit, or their role in supporting public confidence. Quite the opposite, in fact. Turnbull has missed a huge opportunity to look like he gets the basic fact of economic management right now which is building confidence, not white-anting it. Anyway, grumpily:
Question: ‘What is the difference between Rudd and Turnbull?’
Answer: ‘Rudd is a control freak and Turnbull is an out-of-control freak.’
LeftyE
the Greens being part of a coalition government is scarcely new, so how can it be seen as a great step forward? Tasmania has seen at least two Green coalition governments, firstly with Labor and then with the Liberals.
Working from memory (too lazy this morning to google), both were seen as failures, with both of the majors subsequently declaring they wouldn’t work with the Greens again.
I glanced at the Australian’s front page on-line: there is very little publicity being given to this poll. I wonder why? You’d think Shanahan would be trumpeting a fall of 1 point in 2PP… “thin end of the wedge” and all that. I wonder how all this will play in their “the Rudd government is a ‘oncer’” and “Turnbull plays for keeps” hymn books?
The hapless comment that Shaun Carney made in his Saturday article that the Turnbull, the political brawler and “take no prisoners” bare-knuckle street fighter, inflicts a lot of damage on himself, but doesn’t care as long as he inflicts more on his opponent seems kind of quaint in the light of today’s poll. We’ve seen the damage he’s inflicted on himself… still waiting to see the other half of the equation.
Off-Topic: Blu Ray v. Standard Definition DVD
Although I reserve final judgement, as I have not seen the extent and nature of the films in Generic Person’s library, I express a cautious agreement with him that Blu Ray is a superior entertainment medium to standard definition DVD.
I am shocked to agree with him again that there is no perceptible difference between 1080i and 1080p display devices. The reason I am shocked is that this makes two instances of agreement with GP in one post, on one topic.
So, you can imagine my horror when I find myself agreeing with GP a third time. Marlon Brando’s high-camp performance in Mutiny On The Bounty is a corker.
I must warn Bludgers that on a small screen (i.e. anything less than about 100cm diagonal), it is difficult for the non-aficianado to see the quality difference between Blu Ray (or the now defunct HD-DVD) and a good quality Standard Definition DVD. However, using a 1920 x 1080 pixel projector on a 3200 x 1350mm Cinemascope screen (with an anamorphic projection lens added to the system to widen the image to its full 2.40:1 ’scope aspect), viewed from about 4 metres away – as I do – is a truly stunning, totally cinematic experience. The image reveals more and more detail; detail which is completely missing on Standard Definition DVD. 1920 x 1080 resolution is very close to the standard adopted for commercial digital projection (2048 x 1080) in cinemas.
Unfortunately, the selection of classics available on Blu Ray is limited. It will probably take a couple of years for the studios to get up to speed on their back catalog. However, a well-transferred 4:3 aspect B&W “classic” works pretty well with the projection system described above (without the ’scope lens being used, of course). Certainly much better than just watching these movies on a TV screen. The reason is that 4:3 films use the complete available resolution of Standard Definition, whilst – counter-intuitively, perhaps (to use La Stupenda’s favourite word) – 16:9 and 2.40:1 widescreen films fall significantly short of that utilisation.
At last a comment from Shanahan:
You can almost see the tears rolling down his face. Dennis thought he had Kevin on the ropes with his stupid story about who said what to whom and when.
Oh well, back to those little pieces of paper and the Ouiji board, Dennis.
news.com.au is running their story on the polls under the headline:
‘Generation turing cold on environment’
As far as I can see there is no other coverage of the poll on the main page.
The bad news from this Newspoll is the poor timing of the stunt that the Oz and Liberal Party tried to pull on the Australian people. With the last interest rate cut yet to flow fully through and another large interest rate cut certain next month it has got to be the worst time of the century to be running around actively talking down the Australian economy by the Opposition. Their argument on extending the guarantee has been contemptible.
With the Christmas silly season fast approaching there is now little hope of the Opposition making any traction until well into next year.
From memory I think that Possum’s work on the effects of interest rate cuts is highest for the Government six weeks after they are announced so there is plenty of pain still to come for Turnbull and the Liberals.
As ruawake pointed out on the night of the one percent interest rate cut, interest rates are lower now than when Howard gained office and also when he left office.
There is no doubt after the past week in politics that the Liberals are the best economic scavengers, picking their way recklessly, like demented hyenas, through the entrails of the financially moribund such as the self managed funds, in the hope of finding some indigestible viscera for themselves and their supporters to gnaw on.
Standards will always be lower under the Liberals.
Now, trying to be as fair as I can here, this is a serious dilemma for an opposition, any opposition. If they attack the government’s handling of the economy in a crisis, they will be accused of undermining confidence, talking down the economy, etc etc, as indeed the Libs are now being accused. But if they do nothing, if they support the government, will they get credit for putting the public good before party self-interest? Of course not. They’ll be ignored, or else derided as weak and having no policies. The duty of an opposition is to oppose, and they must do this in the knowledge that against a popular first-term government, they will get knocked down a lot before they can hope to land any blows. But they have no choice. Let’s ask ourselves, What Would Kevin Do? If the boot was on the other foot, would he patriotically abstain from attacking PM Turnbull’s handling of the GFC? Of course not, he’d go in boots and all, using any populist stick he could find. And if perchance he didn’t, he’d be rolled in favour of someone who would. Opposition Leader is inherently a position of weakness. The only way to survive in it is to attack. That’s what Turnbull is doing, because he has no choice. Since his attacks lack credibility, and are not cutting through, he’ll probably go down in flames. But if he doesn’t attack he’ll go down anyway.
You are of course right Adam, but just for once I am enjoying basking in moral superiority…..
Don’t get me wrong Adam, I actually enjoy watching a Liberal Party frothing at the mouth, running around in circles, offering bi partisan support one day, trying to kick the economy to death the next.
Outside of gaining themselves a reputation of carping, destructive whingers I am not sure that politically it can achieve much except perhaps poor poll results.
Adam 165
I agree – that is exactly why I said in my post 41 that I wouldn’t be too upset about the 1% drop in 2PP if I was Labor. Turnbull is playing a risky game and if Rudd keeps reminding people every time Turnbull says something alarmist, he has a lot to lose.
Also, there are still the benefits of the stimulus package measures to kick in yet. Polls will improve in November and December as that happens when the pensioners get their payment.
Interesting theory Adam, and for the most part I agree with you. However, if we compare Opposition behaviour in 2007 and in 2008 (though obviously last year was an election year, and so qualitatively different in terms of the zeitgeist), perhaps a different story emerges. One of my abiding memories of last year was KR’s refusal to engage on the wedge issues (eg the Intervention, Haneef etc). Rudd would merely support the government in theory and then wait for the issue to blow up in Howard’s face. This year, however, the Oppostion has taken a scatter-gun approach, critisising everything the government does, in the hope that something sticks.
IMHO, I don’t think such tactics work too well out there in Voter-land, as the two polls from recent days attest. People don’t like a whinging Opposition, and as such, an Opposition needs to choose its fights carefully.
My view is that the Liberal Party is behaving a bit like the ALP (and the Left generally) in the late 90s. People like us just couldn’t believe that anyone could vote for Howard, so we made excuses for it (eg ‘96 was all about Keating, ‘98 Bomber won the popular vote, ‘01 all about Tampa etc). It took a long time for the engaged Left to appreciate that the average swinging voter didn’t actually hate Howard like we did, and that our constant carping was actually a bit of turn-off for these people. And so it is with Rudd. The Libs have this idea that he is a “phoney”, and if they can just make the public understand that, then they will be back in government and all will be well. Thing is that people don’t like to be told that “they got it wrong”, and as such the ALP will be miles ahead (all other things being equal) until well into their second term.
I agree with some of what you’re saying Hugo. It’s funny that people who were so willing to call anyone who criticised Howard ‘Howard Haters’ are now diong the same thing with Rudd. ‘Rudd Haters’ of course doesn’t have the added joy of alliteration.
The Greens have never been part of any formal coalition. For the first time in history they are in a position to take ministerial portfolios and have been offered them. I believe that is the “great step forward”.
So remember how I said yesterday that the drop in the 2PP could mean that Labor’s primary vote was up and the Greens primary vote was down back to 9? Win.
Rudd Riders? Rudd Wreckers? Repelled by Rudd? Kevin Critics? Agreed, Itep, none of them have the smooth cadence of “Howard Haters”.
Konstant Karping Kritics and Kastigators of Kevin, or K5s for short.
The media, especially the ABC/News Ltd, have given Turnball such a free kick over the last fortnight! And yet the public aren’t buying the idea that Rudd/Swan can’t handle the economy? It goes to show how out of touch the MSM are, again!
lol Adam
And the ABC are doing their best to give John McCain favourable coverage – WTF?
It’s called balance, evan14. Balance.
Your ABC. Fair and balanced.
They report, you decide.
It appears Mr Downer personally didn’t want Haneef’s visa to be cancelled at the time of the events, instead it was his view that:
“If the court refused to allow more deadtime on Friday, Mr Downer’s strong preference was that there be a couple of days’ grace, during which it was to be hoped that Haneef himself would see the writing on the wall and leave Australia voluntarily.”
How charming. In other words, he was hoping he’d realise he wasn’t wanted here and to go back to where he comes from.
Agree with ltep on Downer, though I don’t think he was the principal agent in the Haneef case. I’d still like to hear what was Kevin Andrew’s role. I think he still has a lot of explaining left to do.
Is that a bug or a feature?
http://news.smh.com.au/national/govt-wont-meet-funds-commitment-murray-20081028-5a1t.html
The chairman of the Future Fund says that there’s no way in the current cycle the Government is going to be having the kinds of surplus’ we’ve had in the past. I agree. That brings up the fact that it was positive economic circumstances that created the surplus’ not any magical financial wizardry on the part of Peter Costello.
How sad for this country that tens of billions of dollars of surplus were wasted instead of being invested in infrastructure. And now there’s a government that wants to invest they’re hamstrung by this economic collapse. Arghhhh.
In the software world, a bug is just an undocumented feature
In an every accelerating rush to toady to the rich and powerful the ABC have now handed over the soapbox of the once illustrious Boyer Lectures to a geriatric US businessman, the Dirty Digger.
What with their spinelessness on criticism of programs like the Religion Report it seems that ABC management have given up attempting to be innovative and cutting edge. All we are going to get is a regurgitation of News Ltd AGMs but without the dissenting voice of Stephen Mayne.
Shame ABC Shame.
Why PR sucks, episode 989347
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/israelis-wonder-if-livni-is-the-answer/2008/10/27/1224955950058.html
PR is not the problem. Pathetic parties and a 2% threshold are the problem.
“BOOK editor Peter van Onselen says he was “disgusted and embarrassed” to learn that the deputy Liberal leader, Julie Bishop, had not written the essay which appeared in his book under her name.”
I’d be pretty embarrassed as well (to have even bothered editing such a book)!
“Dr van Onselen said he was confident that her article was the only plagiarism in the book, although he said Brendan Nelson, who was Opposition leader at the time, may have had help from a staffer in preparing his article for the book. Dr Nelson could not be reached for comment yesterday.”
Read: He didn’t write his article either
“The other MP contributors to the book, Liberals And Power – The Road Ahead, were Tony Abbott, George Brandis, Michael Keenan and Brett Mason”
Well I can tell this will be a gripping page turner! Can’t miss that one…
Ltep – you’ve probably read the book already under the names of other authors.
Yes Steve, Brandis’ contribution will begin ‘I’m George, I’m from Queensland and I’m here to help’.
or given his Lateline performance last week,”I’m George, I’m from Queensland and I’m here to talk down the Australian economy.”
And talk over everyone else.
I actually think the ABC reportage is among the worst, and lazy as well. This morning I heard a reporter say “the freezing of funds CAUSED BY the government bank gurantee”.
Hey, you ABC slacktards: check this list before opening yer traps. http://www.maynereport.com/articles/2008/08/28-0958-6879.html
More than half of these froze BEFORE the government gurantee was issued. How do you CAUSE something that happened beforehand? Hmmmm??
example: “Macquarie Group: froze redemptions on its $1 billion Direct Property Fund and Direct Wholesale Property Fund on August 25.”
The govt issued its banking gurantee on October 12.
What is it the media doesnt get about time, space and causality?
And as for Malcolm, well, you be the judge. Talking it all down for partisan gain? He must be aware the funds were freezing beforehand.
ltep @ 188
Where did you get the quote about Nelson getting some help? I can’t see it in the original article.
In comments I asked Onselen if he had confirmation that all the others wrote their own bit but he didn’t reply (did post the comment though so credit to him for that)
lefty e perhaps the funds could do what Peter Martin suggests and begin advertising. (Language warning.)
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/perhaps-funds-should-ramp-up-their.html
Oh, Ok cancel that request ltep, I found it at SMH
steve @ 195
rofl, thanks for that clip – very funny
Posts 150-200 have provided the biggest entertainment on poll bludger for a while. The Liberals really are screwed aren’t they…
Oz 183
Your comments on the soon to dissappear surplus are no doubt sadly true. ABC reported version is here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403163.htm
Funny isn’t it – I thought the surplus was due to the Howard government’s good economic management and introduction of Workchoices?
While I don’t doubt Muray’s comments on the surplus, I found his other comments on the government buying a stake in the property funds hard to swallow. Two questions: 1. why? They are at risk investments and he as a former bank CEO shoudl know that.
2. if we did that, and already face having no surplus, what do we then use to restart the economy with? Silly idea.
I’m not surprised by these poll numbers for the past two weeks have been Interesting.
Both sides have made clear mistakes, I think the voters are starting to turn off! which is bad news for Turnbull, the reason why I think they are turning off is they mostly understand that the situation is a flow on from a global downturn and while people are concerned in general they are pleased with the Governments $10.4B package and the cuts in Interest Rates.
Sure there have been some job loses but as we know that is a common thing and in reality Unemployment hasn’t risen in an out of control fashion, generally the correction in property prices would be seen as a good thing and while people would be concerned by the falling value of Superfund’s and the share market they fully know that this is due to the global economy.
I would imagine within most financial companies some sort of brief has been provided to employees regarding the companies position both in the short term and long term.
While the job market has tightened there are still jobs out there the point being the majorly have some understanding the state of the economy, the Government has done several very good things while the opposition have for the most part focused on who said what to whom and when.
I think it was Hugo who said it reminded him of the ALP in the late 90s and that is a very good way of putting it for the Liberal Party may well be making great points that go down really well in North Sydney and Kooyong but to the voters of Mortgage land to quote Clark Garbo “Quite frankly my dear I don’t give a damn.
These voters look at the cut in Interest rates and the handouts and think their money is safe in the bank therefore life is still good. sure the Rudd Government has made several mistakes this week that have hurt it but at this stage the only people taking note of those are what we would call Liberal Voters a bit like during the 90s the ALP voters would go red in the face over something which to most was nothing.
If an election was held now I would expect the ALP to be returned but I seriously dealt there would be a landslide, in fact the ALP might lose a few seats.
54-46 is a 1% swing to the ALP.
No Future: Credit crisis killing infrastructure plans – http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403163.htm
Thankyou very much Howard. The boom years, wasted.
There was a remarkably good economic result (5% GSP growth!) reported for Qld today:
http://news.smh.com.au/national/queensland-economy-grows-at-51-per-cent-20081028-5a5l.html
When does Anna Bligh have to go to an election? She must be desperately hoping this holds up till after then. It won’t of course, but even if the Qld growth rate halved it would still be respectable. I suspect that result will be close.
bob
Yes they were. A lot of financiers driving around in foreign cars and yuppies in McMansions will be the principal Howard legacy.
Call em biased as an engineer but the frustrating thing now is that, even if more serious money is put into “nation building” type infrastructure projects, most of the really substantial ones take several years to get going. it isn’t just red tape: for example if you have to resume land for a new rail line, people have statutory rights of appeal. Similarly with environmental studies: many are needed to establish safe design criteria for the projects. So even with swift action, 2009 could be a fairly lean year.
I don’t know what’s so bad in QLD that warrants replacing the Government with Springborg.
Socrates the next Queensland election is due by September next year. This week will be interesting too as state parliament is meeting in Cairns for three days beginning today.
I’m not sure if Question time will be delayed because of the regional parliament but there is usually a series of gaffes by the Liberal National Party that make hansard a quirky read. I’ve got this week off work so if the Liberal National Party do anything usual, I’ll share the stupidity far and wide.
Oz
I don’t have a strong opinion on Bligh; I was just observing that recent opinion polls have been closer. If the economy tightens as well that would make the election tight. Of course, the pinneapple party leadership saga will still help Bligh enormously when the crunch comes.
The Liberal National Party always poll well when they are in hiding and with absolutely no policies. One they come out in public with a policy or two in tow things go pear shaped very quickly.
David Murray was one of the reasons we switched banks from Commonwealth to ANZ, When he was head of Commonwealth Bank he was Howards most strident supporter. Every election he’d be there with the Rodent singing his praises.
So I personally wouldn’t take much notice of anything he had to say
vera @ 209, I assume you’re replying to:
“No Future: Credit crisis killing infrastructure plans – http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403163.htm
Thankyou very much Howard. The boom years, wasted.”
Regardless of who says it, it is true. The crunch is here, locally and globally money is not being splashed around like candy anymore, the time to invest in nationbuilding during the boom years has come and gone.
That is Howard’s legacy. The wasted years and WorkChoices.
Vera
No I think Murray is talking rubbish about extending the guarantee. But I fear he may be right about the surplus.
I agree the surplus is stuffed, just saying I wouldn’t want Rudd taking advice from this bloke.
Why would Murray even be commenting on extending the guarantee?
Looking at those Newspoll figures I’m struggling to find any proof to support GP’s comment that Malcolm is holding his own. Or was he referring to something else?
Probably because a journalist was looking for a quote
“the surplus is stuffed”.
How succinct.
Has anyone been able to find an economist yet that believes the Federal government has taken the wrong path in all of this financial mess?
John Stone probably does. What has Terry McCrann had to say? What has John Hewson had to say?
GB
If your question sought a qualified, independant economist I think the answer is no – they all agreed the bank guarantee was necessary, same with the drop in interest rates, same with the fiscal stimulus. There was some debate on the way the first home buyer bonus was handled (could have led to inflation) but overall no – I am not aware of any credible Australian economic analysts who dissented. I’m still not.
re “the surplus is stuffed”.
The Govt can and will go into deficit OR use its AAA credit rating to borrow to spend on infrastructure etc, which in turn will help kick the economy along.
Nothing wrong with that – over the cycle.
They have also said they will dip into the future fund if need be as well. Bear in mind the future fund was a con anyway. tip and co just didn’t have a clue where to spend it anyway despite the crying need for nation wide infrastructure spend.
BTW the future fund was and is a con is because it was supposedly set up to meet unfunded public service pension liabilities – the baby boomer generation in the main.
Some years ago – 5 years or so ?? the commonwealth adopted accrual accounting with provision is set aside on a yearly basis to met such liabilities.
With the progressive retirement of the boomers in coming years and as they progressively fall off their perches the liability with also run off. OK these people are in retirement and still need to be paid pensions etc, but the liability does run off.
The need for the fund was always overstated, although was probably a good idea from the viewpoint that rodent would spent it on election bribes as he did with the bulk of the windfall from the minerals boom.
Saul Estlake from ANZ calculated that the rodent years saw about $309 B of $310 B from the minerals boom in giveaways basically wasted and with nothing in the way of nation building to show for it.
A epitaph of the rodent years if there ever was one.
That being said, here is some more sobering news on the underlying problem in financial markets (outside Australia): banks (and others) still haven’t come clean on who owes what to whom, and how many bad debts they hold:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3c241b54-a380-11dd-942c-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1
This is why banks are reluctant to lend to each other now – they don’t know who is a bad credit risk. This is also why the government should NOT be issueing guarantees to anyone but savings banks that are an essential part of the day to day economy.
Adam count McCrann out.
GB @ 214 The Newspoll figures for the Australian Labor Party are very good at the moment, and not so good (without being disastrous) for the other side of politics. It is a little early yet to say whether or not Malcolm is ‘holding his own’ but the Liberals to be competitive (even at this relatively early stage of the electoral cycle) probably need a Coalition primary vote above 40% so I guess it’s fair to say the Opposition Leader and the Coalition parties should be concerned about the relatively low level of voter support for them and understand (if they do not already) that they have plenty of work to do.
A crucial time to assess how each side is travelling as the momentum gathers for the next Federal election, will be around the conclusion of the financial year ending 30 June 2009 (that is, after the next Federal budget has been announced and also after some months have passed so we can see evidence of the extent to which the GFC has affected the Australian economy, particularly levels of unemployment).
A very weird ending to that article, he claims to know a solution in the last three paragraphs but doesn’t get to tell us what it is.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24561145-36281,00.html
Hang on, his solution is for the funds to get access to liquidity. If only the whole world financial system would take Terry’s advice we would have solved the problem. What a genius.
I hope the Herald Sun isn’t stupid enough to actually add to his liquidity by paying him to write this simplistic dribble.
Is Alan Wood still economics editor of the Australian? What has he been saying?
I’d be very interested to know Hewson’s view. I’m sure the media will have been after him – if he hasn’t said anything he must be lying low so he doesn’t have to criticise Turnbull.
Sky Nooze main story…. by David Spears in USA
“Obama campaign looking at Kevin Rudds emphatic victory for inspiration”
lefty e @ 194 -
I actually think the ABC reportage is among the worst, and lazy as well. This morning I heard a reporter say “the freezing of funds CAUSED BY the government bank gurantee”.
IMO, it’s a bit hard to be critical of the ABC when the Government, particularly Swan, seem to be accepting the total blame for the frozen funds as an unintended consequence of the bank guarantees too. Buggered if I know why. There’s been enough information posted here in the last day or two demonstrating that while the guarantees undoubtedly haven’t helped matters (with more than a little help from the Opposition’s hysterics) they weren’t thecause. You’d think Swan et al would be even more aware of the true state of play than us.
An explanation of why extending the guarantee to the mortgage funds is not a smart thing to do wouldn’t hurt either.
They may be doing all the right things in financial terms, but I am starting to despair of the Government’s handling of the politics.
Swan will need to be very careful what he says about mortgage trusts and why government wont guarantee them, otherwise he risks having people think they are too risky to guarantee. I’m not sure if he would want to say there was a run on them prior to the guarantee as that will get people thinking that there IS a problem with these things. So best thing for him to say is not much.
TP
Its a pity allbull didn’t take your advice. He has gone out of his way to talk up problems.
Not a good look for someone who is soo desperate to be PM.
MF
Well they should explain five things about the bank guarantees:
1. there was no choice on the bank guarantees – action had to be taken, and it was a policy implemented globally
2. the bank guarantees have worked – our banks are OK and our econmy is still moving
3. investment funds are not bank accounts – and some were frozen before this anyway
4. people with money in frozen funds haven’t lost their cash – it is still there earning dividends. They will just have to wait, and they can get assistance in the mean time.
5. extending the guarantee to investment funds would be too messy (do share funds get it?), too expensive, and there was never any suggestion that they were government guaranteed in the first place.
Simple. Even Shanahan could understand it.
223 – A fair assessment David. I agree.
Permission granted to messrs Rudd and Swan to use a modified vesion of 232 to reassure the nervous nellies.
The only jurno yet to ask allbull what his detailed policy is on the G/- and related matters is red kerry.
Allbull was asked repeatedly but refused to answer the questions.
Why have no other jurnos even raised the matter. Is this not more than a fair question when allbull is talking up economic disaster for the nation.
These were questions repeatedly asked of labor in opposition.
Adam there is a 2UE radio interview with John Hewson here from Sunday 26/10/08. He wants bipartisanship, and agreement on detail as to how to handle the GFC.
RBA, Treasury Govt, Opposition all locked in room till agreement reached..All about confidence. On about falls in Superannuation. Wants stability as soon as possible.
http://www.2ue.com.au/timwebster
Thanks Steve. That’s just a dodge, if he won’t say what he thinks actually ought to be done. Just calling for consensus is not a policy.
As Lord Melbourne said to his Cabinet, “My Lords, Gentlemen, I don’t care a damn what we say, so long as we all say the same thing.”
Steve
Nobody can guarantee stability, or a halt to falls in superannuation. That agreement isn’t going to happen if anyone in the room is sane. Nor is there any obligation to agree with the opposition.
I think Hewson has the experience to pick how much potential there is for damage to the Liberal Party and took the opportunity to mouth what he thought would be soothing words to the faithful.
Why would you look to Hewson for advice? He lost the ‘unloseable election’.
rusty, seems like the old good cop, bad cop game. Turbull out there kicking heads while Hewson is talking consensus and the Opposition inside the tent etc.
Mayo feral – I guess unlike Talcum, Swan isn’t about to come out and say” actually, those funds were already screwed” – since it wouldn’t help
True as it is though.
This post on Shannahan’s blob goes a long way to explaining the flood of negative comments by rwdb Lib supporters on News Ltd and ABC sites.
This part is telling besides the typical criticism of polling procedures which so many of them have been advocating for the past 18 Months.
I wonder just how long it will take before they wake up to the fact that flooding the internet with inane negative commentary doesn’t work. One poster complained that the average joe blow out there either aren’t reading their insightful, informative posts or are just plain dumb.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24562165-17301,00.html
I thought this one was rather good though.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24562165-17301,00.html
Scorpio, what amazes me is how a sample of the population accurately reflects the gist of what the general population is thinking at any given point. Even the Liberals picked this one coming and sent in the clowns on Saturday night and yesterday to try to get a bit of damage control happening here on Poll bludger.
I think this still a pretty good result for Turnbull. At the end of the day, when people are fearful, they cling to the government of the day. We’ve seen it in the past, and we’re seeing it again today. It really doesn’t have a lot to do with Rudd’s alleged stellar economic management, though you wouldn’t know it reading the lefty circle jerk going on above….
I don’t know about the last part of your post GP, but I do know that an awful number of Coalition supporters on other sites are somewhat critical of Turnbull’s strategy over the past two weeks. Not counting the trolls of course who are still posting the same inane comments.
No 240
Exactly.
245 – A lot of disappointment and down right resentment in that comment GP.
So “in times of trouble” if people stick with the government why then would they change government if we’re still in “times of trouble” two years from now?
The question is are you “holding your ground” if your opponent goes ahead of you but you go along at the same pace? I would argue “no”.
Thomas Paine @ 230 -
I’m not sure if he would want to say there was a run on them prior to the guarantee as that will get people thinking that there IS a problem with these things. So best thing for him to say is not much.
If it was still Howard and Costello do you think they’d be meekly taking the blame for this? Not on your Nelly. They’d be shouting from atop the Parliament House flagpole how they were just innocent bystanders and it was all the fault of those greedy foreigners and pointing out that the funds were loosing clients long before they worked their arses off saving the banks. And they’d have a point! Well, except for that last bit.
No 247
No, I said when people are fearful, not “in times of trouble”.
Such as this one which the poster must assume that the reader has been hiding in a cave somewhere or is totally stupid.
She must have missed the 1.5% cut in interest rates recently or that there was only 2 rises of .25% earlier in the year and rates were on hold for the remainder.
Somehow, I cannot believe this person is in business, more likely just a troll when you consider the rest of her post.
Would I be happy if my horse went along at the same pace but those around it raced further in front? No.
GP long may you and your side think that being behind 8% 2PP, 34% behind on PPM (6% worse than last time) and 15% behind on managing the economy (17% worse than last time) is a GOOD result for Turnbull.
Dont you get it?? The Libs have been miles behind for almost 2 YEARS now, they got voted out and yet STILL no introspection, contrition, attempt to review policies. No, just waiting for government to fall back into their laps because the Rudd election was a mistake.
What makes you think, GP, in bad economic times ahead people won’t remain fearful? If they don’t remain fearful why then would they change government?
Well that depends on whether you have a fool as Treasurer…and Swan acts like a fool.
Not according to the polls Glen.
Fancy putting the Libs in and having Mesmeralda as Treasurer. You’d have to be joking.
Scropio at number 243
I’m pretty sure that during Howard’s day the balance of commentary on blogs, open-lines and such was usually against the government.
That seems to be the way it is. People like to whinge, and will put considerable effort into doing so. On the other hand, people don’t so often take the effort to write that they are contented.
This is a pronounced phenomenon with the Liberal sore losers who spill their bitterness and hurt all over ABC and News Ltd blogs day on day. They must really believe they should have won the election (even after all the misdemeanours of their side in power). Their noses are soooo chronically out of joint, it would make a rhinologist sit up and take notes.
Glen, you illustrate my point perfectly. Could you (or GP) outline what level of support in the polls would you regard as concerning for the opposition??
Anything below 45%2PP…so 46%2PP is a slight improvement but we need to be 48%2PP at the end of the year or next year to have a hope of contesting the 2010 election well.
I suppose you would simply ignore Essential then…
Essential is an internet poll=no credibility…
“Under a carbon pollution reduction scheme, the price of energy sources, such as petrol, electricity and gas may become more expensive. Do you think the federal Government should delay or should not delay the introduction of carbon pollution reduction scheme…” Newspoll question.
What kind of loaded question is this? Why would anyone give the answer, to this crap question, any kind of credence?
Its not a pollster type of question, it is a “we own it” type of question.
I’ll remember that anytime you attempt you use it’s figures to support a Turnbull “bounce”.
OK Glen so 56/44 is a worry but not 54/46. You forget that the incumbency factor is a huge advantage going into an election- even Howard pcked up over 3% 2PP during the campaign and that was a badly-run campaign with an interest rate rise and the Lindsay scare
Ru,
This was picked up well by poster, Graham on Shannahan’s blog. He was really copping it today and comments were stopped at 11.36 am. Trying I guess to avoid more embarrassment and to try and save what is left of his credibility. Very little.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24562165-17301,00.html
Their poll like the F2F Morgan regardless their absolute values are usefull for picking up movements.
Both polls have been showing a strong recent personal move to Rudd which has translated to a higher TPP in the ER poll and, probably will for Labor in the next Newspoll, allowing for margin of error. You wouldn’t figure on Labor’s TPP going backwards while all the personal attributes of Rudd forge ahead.
I agree tend to agree that Turnbull is in limbo. I think he is causing people to scratch theirs heads trying to actually get a finger on him, his messages are here and there, yes and no, there is no conitnuity and I think people don’t actually know what his position is on anything. He is in danger of just seeming a grumpy complainer and wind bag.
Anyone have a theory why the Green vote has fallen from 13 to 9 ? Is it because peoples minds are focussed on the Global Financial Thingy?
lefty e @ 242 -
Mayo feral – I guess unlike Talcum, Swan isn’t about to come out and say” actually, those funds were already screwed” – since it wouldn’t help
True as it is though.
If so, then the screwed will know exactly who to blame for the loss of their life savings and them ending their days nibbling dog biscuits in the poor house! After all the guilty have admitted it was all their doing, didn’t they?
At least that will be how it will be forever portrayed. Bloody, Labor, you can’t trust them with your money. If only we’d listened to Fraser and stuffed it under the bed, Ethel!
lefty e @ 242 -
Mayo feral – I guess unlike Talcum, Swan isn’t about to come out and say” actually, those funds were already screwed” – since it wouldn’t help
True as it is though.
If so, then the screwed will know exactly who to blame for the loss of their life savings and them ending their days nibbling dog biscuits in the poor house! After all the guilty have admitted it was all their doing, didn’t they?
At least that will be how it will be forever portrayed. Bloody, Labor, you can’t trust them with your money. If only we’d listened to Fraser and stuffed it under the bed, Ethel!
Yes, I concur with Glen. 45% or above is a good result for the opposition.
Oops, sorry.
No 265
Carbon is not pollution.
Most likely. They’ve been left out of the debate on the issue even though they’ve been putting out media releases and virtually every development, domestic and international. That’s hardly a surprise though.
If anything else the Labor vote in 2007 was inflated and will probably come down in 2010 whether we can win or not is another matter entirely.
At this stage at least we arent 58-42 as we were at the beginning of the year with newspoll. That means we have gone up 4 and Labor have gone down 4. The greens are dreaming if they think they’ll even get 9% of the vote in 2010, enviro issues are not biting atm, economic management is the theme of the day. I hope Rudd puts in the ETS because he will make a big mistake once ppl start having to pay more and lose their jobs.
Please do Oz.
What I find so fascinating about the now almost 12 Months of Government 2PP results and especially Rudd’s PPM figures, is that it has been achieved without them having to spend $200m in Government advertising or using the usual scare campaign and wedge tactics that Howard depended on for survival .
I can’t remember seeing one Government add which could be in any way perceived as a party partisan political nature. Come to think of it I can’t remember seeing “any” Federal Government adds although there surely must have been at least some.
No wonder the MSM have been going at Rudd so hard all year. The lolly train has run off the rails and must a major reason for the considerable drop in advertising revenue being experienced by them. Hence the substantial falls in their share prices.
Packer jnr sure made a wise move getting out of the media business when he did.
@277 – Glen
INFLATED! HAHA!
I love Liberal supporters born to rule mentality. They always think they are right even when the election has been lost, think the public got it wrong, and will vote them back in next election.
Won’t happen. Suck it up.
How is that born to rule?
Labor won in a landslide it is only natural some of those who backed Rudd will come back, but not all.
The public doesnt get it wrong Bob.
Cant see how 45% TPP is a good result for the opposition?? It’s loser territory in the polls at a time when probably the most significant issue in people minds is economic management. If the Fibs can’t pull ahead, significantly, on that metric, then the party that gave us SerfChoices has no chance at all.
Of course, going into the next election, much will depend on how people judge the Rudd government has handled the current GFC in terms of keeping the economy running as best they can.
But we know that Australia is not going to get through this pain free. So, they will also be judged on whatever policy settings they use to try and mitigate the flow on effects to the average punter like with actual welfare (not middle class) and ir.
And the environmental issues that the ALP stood on at the last election wont go away. That’s important in this sense for preference flows from the Greens who after all have a big presence in the Senate for the next 6 years.
Why, Glen?
If the Rudd Government keeps performing as well as they have done so far and if the Coalition continues to perform as poorly as they have so far, then why would voters, who moved across to Labor at the last election, suddenly get a rush of blood and go rushing back to the bosom of the Libs.
Because if you are sitting high and mighty you never know what might befall you just like what happened to this South African MP… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmTlJH26IZU&feature=related
No 281
imacca, I should clarify, 45% or above is a good result this far out from the election. Of course, if the polls remained at current levels in 2010, then of course that would not be good.
No 282
You’re living with the fairies if you think the government has performed excellently thus far.
So voters are going to desert Rudd for the Libs because a heavyset South African MP broke a chair. I see.
No but my point is Rudd never saw the economic crisis hit him until too late like the Fat South African MP…they both knew something was bad as when the chair cracks and when earlier this year the subprime crisis was hitting us hard and was getting out of control but did nothing and now boom the chair has been broken and now Rudd and co needs to figure out how to stop us from getting into a real mess.
Still if we go by First Past the Post
39 Coalition
44 Labor
That is pretty close if you ask me. Despite losing office last year.
The Libs are only going to pick up votes if they have more coherent and positive policies about the GFC than Labor. They haven’t shown that to be the case yet.
285,
54-46 and 61-39 tells me they aren’t doing too badly.
All the figures since November 24 last year have been well above the 2PP figure of the election.
So the general electorate must think they are doing OK too or else they are with the fairies also.
Why exactly would we ‘go first past the post’?
You can’t have “Coalition” under a first past the post system.
ruawake @ 265
This Crikey article has another name for it.
“Newspoll on ETS: a clear case of push polling?”
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20081028-ETS-push-polling.html
I notice Allbull was out following or “pushing” the OO’s script today. Doesn’t he have any ideas of his own?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403660.htm?section=justin
44 Labor v 39 Coalition under first past the post?
LOL!!! His ignorance has been shown for what it is.
It’s 44 Labor to 36 Liberal under first past the post. But that’s pointless as we use preferential voting, and a social leftie like me who votes Green then Labor isn’t counted when you use your first past the post method…
Still confused, your post exposes a lot, rofl.
@284
Labor didn’t stick on 45% 2pp after their loss in 1996.
Oh Dear, Glen talk about rewriting history. The subprime crisis dates back to August last year.
Well i am assuming the tories would and should merge but hey.
ALP 44
Liberal Party 36
National Party 3
Greens 9
PV is undemocratic and we should have still had 1PP voting.
Turnbull could well be setting himself up for another embarrassing back-down if the modeling does take into consideration the GFC which it most probably will.
[The Treasury modelling is due this week and will assist the Government in setting targets for greenhouse gas reduction.
The Opposition says the modelling is months late and does not take into account the turmoil in global financial markets.
Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull says the Government should not be rushing to introduce an emissions trading scheme in 2010.
"It's likely to be economically very damaging and environmentally very ineffective so a lose-lose [situation],” he said.]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403660.htm?section=justin
Rudd brought out his 10b economic plan with no modelling shows how well the ALP are when it comes to economics!
Hummm, Government making a move to assist Investment funds.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403832.htm?section=justin
299 Yes unlike the $billion 10 Murray water plan that was written on the back of an envelope in a Brisbane hotel while cabinet was meeting without being shown to Treasury…but that is Liberal great economic management at its very best.
Judy Barnes will be happy about this but will be hoping it brings closure to her case.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403694.htm
scorpio @ 300. Heard this being talked about on local ABC (774) when Stephen Mayne was doing his regular spot with the sweet, but utterly light weight and politically clueless, Lindy B.. Asked for an immediate response, he said he’d need to think about it, but that it sounded sensible. After listening to PM, including having to endure Costello bleating it should be him at the helm on the basis, I think, that he was a Treasurer for some time and actually understood this stuff, after all hadn’t he been warning of the coming economic tsunami before the election, and why didn’t people listen, blah, blah, and having a bit of a think about it my self, it does actually sound like it might be pretty smart. Stick to their guns about not guaranteeing investment funds, but if the funds want to comply with APRA standards, they’ll stump up the money to make it happen. Pretty nifty. Will be interesting to see what some of the more sensible economic pundits make of it.
Just another thought, that’s actually on topic, I reckon one thing contributing to the persistence of the polling trend, is that what the gov’t. repeatedly demonstrates, is that they stick to their word = trust. Thinking back to some of the other polling on this factor, Rudd cf. Turnbull, I think form memory, Turnbull did quite poorly on this measure, while a large proportion of the population actually trust the gov’t..
Modelling takes weeks, if not months. Do you suggest the Government wait months before stepping in to save the economy?
That’d be ‘from’ memory, and can’t blame the three legged cat.
The Ken Henry hansard has been released.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/its-out-much-awaited-ken-henry-hansard.html
Here is the latest ever evolving detail of the guarantee.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/ever-evolving-guarantee.html
He must’ve learnt from Costello!
You must’ve failed science.
I would think that if the Libs offered Turnbull and Bishop in exchange for Swan, then they would be badly disappointed.
I’m sure Labor would prefer to go with the team they’ve got.
Oz!! While its true modelling takes weeks but the economic situation was known for sometime, as early as the last budget the Government talked about job loses.
The Government knew the U.S. was heading towards recession and the U.K were not far behind for several months if it didn’t then it wasn’t paying attention.
I for one called the U.S. in recession in March and I’m not an Economist but I could see the U.S. was heading towards a serious downturn.
The package is as much about politics as it does about creating economic activity, if the Government were serious about economic activity why ignore the unemployed.
Historically Glen is right for a Landslide sees people who normally don’t change do just that, we have seen this at state level when the ALP have won thumping margins only too see at the following election safe Liberal seats that have been reduced to marginal status or fell tot he ALP return to a more historically looking margin.
I know there are exceptions to that comment but in general the Government starts to die the minute its takes office and that is why each election is progressively harder than the previous one to win.
Can anyone guess what Glen’s criticism of Rudd would be had he taken this action?
Yes it was clear that the current record low levels of unemployment were not sustainable. Predicting that is one thing. Predicting the global financial crisis? You seriously expected the Government to run modelling at the beginning of this year to see the impact of a 50% loss on the stockmarket, a 40% drop on the dollar, a global recession, China’s growth rate dropping 2%, the nationalisation of dozens of banks and companies around the world, dramatic interest rate cuts…
It’s just criticism for criticism sake. Nothing more, nothing less. You make a very good point Oz 314.
Glen @ 299 -
Rudd brought out his 10b economic plan with no modelling shows how well the ALP are when it comes to economics!
Howard + Costello + $100-300b resources boom windfall = bugger all
Howard + Murray-Darling + $10b + boozy lunch + back of envelope -input from any gov. dept (especially. Treasury) = ???????
Turnbull + shonky ‘rainmaker’ = $10m down the dunny (despite warnings from scientists it was quackery)
A few years a go the IMF predicted post games China would slow!
It is true that the Government could not have seen the extent at which the global economy would declinde and it could not have second guessed how Euorpean Governments would react.
Regarding the drop in the share market using history as a gulde and knowing their was a very large hosuing bubble you could make a presumption that the stock market would fall somewhat. the level would be hard to guess and their is no sign that we have seen the bottom.
To be fair to the Governmetn its hand has been forced somewhat by what the Americans and Europeans have done regarding the Banks
Oh yeah, and toss in unprecedented bank guarantees all around the world.
HSO @ 304,
Not so sure you’re right about Turnbull, but I think you’re right about Rudd – a lot of people do trust him and that’s part of the reason why his handling of a pretty incomprensible crisis is getting good marks from the voters.
I wouldn’t say people mistrusted Turnbull per se, but they don’t know him all that well, and from what they do know, think he’s a bit of a smart arse. (Which is probably true, but the important question is whether he’s a useful smart arse …)
Here’s the latest from Tip not positioning himself for a tilt at the leadership. A couple of interesting points. But the Libs don’t address the issue of their bitterness toward the Reserve Bank for putting up interest rates during the last election.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/ken-henry-a-pawn-in-a-political-game/2008/10/28/1224956034413.html
Dr Gruen has explained to the Senate Committee last week that the modeling will be done in time for the half year economic review due in a couple of weeks time.
Page 42 Dr Henry hansard
Van Onselen bucketing Little Miss Echo on Latelne.
Will Cossie run for deputy leader?
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE49N5VU20081028
Iceland raises rates 6%
Lateline ripping on Julie Bishop.
The staffer who wrote it said he “Quickly knocked it together”. Not a ringing endorsement for the book.
Apparently Julie Bishop rang up the NZ businessmen who she plagiarised and blamed it all on van Onselen and the publisher. The businessmen decided to take her town on that and dobbed her in to the media.
Van Onselen also said that plenty of other chapters are unreferenced.
AR,
Been there bought the t-shirt.
Looking for a new experience.
Chris Bowen and who’s the other dude? Never seen him but he’s going to get ripped by Mr. Cute as a button.
This I must observe! I thought Van Onselen was a small l Liberal.
No way, that would make it obvious that he is planning a comeback.
The Liberals are lucky this wasn’t a parliamentary sitting week.
Well that is kind of his fault. He didn’t do his job as editor properly.
GG,
Now I understand it. “No” Public Servant has ever appeared before a Senate Estimates Committee prior to the Rudd Government taking office.
Mmmm, not quite sure about that. Didn’t Ken Henry say that he had been appearing before these Committees for the “past 24 years”.
What in the blazes is Costello on? Don’t most or all Department heads appear before Senate Estimate Hearings on a fairly regular basis.
Does Costello take us all for forgetful, ignorant, fools?
scorpio,
Not sure. Maybe he’s just turning into one of those codgers who remembers when the flag went up and the whistle was blown, yet survived to tell the tale. And, keep on telling it!
No 309
ShowsOn, you’re not seriously suggesting that Carbon Dioxide is a pollutant? Carbon Dioxide is the reason why the Earth hasn’t descended into an endless ice age!
I think Turnbull’s position has been vindicated now that the PM has stepped into to offer support to investment funds.
I don’t think you understand what a “pollutant” is. Every chemical has its place in the natural biophysical balance. However they can be called “pollutants” if they are in inappropriate environments, or there is a significant portion of them which throws out the balance.
No 323
Bishop’s imbecility is thoroughly unacceptable.
Gnereic Person,
Before this discussion descends in to a shite fight of significant proportions, just for the audience please advise us of your scientific qualifications and whether your comments are derived from the latest Liberal talking point sheet.
Do you have any idea what your talking about?
GP whilst i give you credit for calling Bishop for what she is, you need to critically evaluate your hypothesis that Turnbull is vindicated by or driving what the govt is doing. Please read the newspoll economic managment and satisifaction figures again. Its only in Turbull’s and the MSM’s cheershquad’s minds that he is of any relevance and having impact at the moment
No 333
GG, I have no desire or need to prove myself to you.
Carbon Dioxide is necessary for biological life to exist on this planet. It’s a simple fact.
The relative PROPORTION of it is too high, that is what climate change is about G.P.
Unlike G.P., I passed year 8 science.
LOL! Who said it wasn’t!?
It is the PROPORTION of CO2 relative to other gases that is the problem G.P. Come on, keep up!
Who is more insufferable? Steve Ciobo or Christopher Pyne?
And sulfuric acid is necessary for the creation of fertilisers. Point?
No 334
Andrew, for the last few weeks all we’ve heard from people of your ilk is that Rudd’s decision was excellent and that Turnbull was wrong. But yet again, the Government is doing what Turnbull has been suggesting for some time.
Obviously you might think he’s irrelevant, but Kevin Rudd seems perfectly happy to pilfer policy from the opposition as and when necessary and then claim credit for great economic management. I wonder who’s the real plagiarist?
Ciobo’s voice doesn’t compare to Pyne’s but he trumps him in the name departmant.
Just read a fascinating article by Stanley Fish in the NYTimes giving an appraisal of Obama & McCain’s campaigns.
I see so many parallels to Rudd’s campaign last year and to some degree, I feel that Rudd is following the script in dealing with both the Opposition and the MSM.
The latter two haven’t changed their modus operandi so if Rudd continues on the same course that brought him success so far, then there is every possibility it will continue to frustrate his opponents and his success will continue.
I think Rudd is smart enough that if the strategy of his opponents changes, then Rudd will make suitable adjustments to his strategy to counter it. In which case, the Opposition are really in deep doo doo which ever way they go.
No 337
ShowsOn, a higher proportion of CO2 accelerates plant growth.
Please link me to Turnbull’s media release containing his policy that details that mortgage trusts and the like should become APRA regulated banks before receving a government guarantee.
If you can’t do that there’s no point posting in response.
No 338
Both are upstanding members of parliament.
Method: we move GP’s Petrie dish to a bell jar. Then we pump Co2 into the bell jar.
At what % of CO2 in the atmosphere in the bell jar will we hear a little voice from the dish admitting that the gas is a pollutant?
I’m sure the planet would be applauding us then, if a shortage of plant growth was the issue.
GP, you’re denigrating Glen’s favourite Liberal pollie I hope you know.
Pyne, he represents the seat I live in.
So does adding manure G.P., So I suggest you print some of your posts and put them on your garden.
He’ll be unconscious at 7%.
From the estimates Hansard – proof positive that Sen Abetz is the biggest tool in parliament:
At his point Coonan comes in, no doubt out of embarrasment.
ShowsOn, a higher proportion of CO2 accelerates plant growth.
So does chicken manure, your point?
I forgot the link to 342, sorry.
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/the-power-of-passive-campaigning/?em
It’s really good reading.
GP,
I thought they were reasonable questions.
But, if you choose not to respond in a sensible way, then one can only assume you are no more or less than one of those Indian call centres selling an Aussie Holiday experience. Got the accent, got the words, but no idea what they are talking about.
No 344
Oz, last week Swan told people affected by the freeze on funds to go to Centrelink, this week he wants to guarantee them so long as they accept additional regulation. Turnbull has been demanding action for some time, and has argued that reducing the scope of the guarantee would have avoided the accelerated run on non-banks in the first place. Either way, Swan is looking like the bumbling fool he always was.
#355
etc etc etc
No media release?
Then I hope you won’t continue to keep pushing the line that the Government is pilfering policy from Turnbull. He demanded “action” did he? And since “action” has been taken, it’s because of him? ROFL.
No 351
Yes, Mr Abetz’s questioning was ridiculous.
That’s cos ERICA is ridiculous!
No 354
GG, everyone participating in this discussion is doing so on a largely anonymous basis. If you wish to debate scientific qualifications rather than the substance of my argument, then you’ve chosen the wrong forum.
But why should we believe your opinions on science? You think creationism should be taught in science classes. That’s utter nonsense.
Your argument lacks any substance, that’s your problem. You’re arguing against postulated science, backed up by theories, so one would expect some kind of scientific experience or data to support you. Since you’re lacking, on what basis do you make your claims?
No 358
ShowsOn please do not waste our time with infantile references to our politicians.
355 GP, I fail to see what you are on about. If people have their accounts frozen and the value of the assets is not as high as it was recently then they could be eligible for Centrelink payments. What have you got against self funded retirees being able to pay their bills in times of economic instability?
*Backed up by evidence, sorry.
OK Geriatric Pornographer, I’m sorry I hurt your fillings.
Gerry Harvey is a crackpot.
“What are Harvey Norman’s margins?”
“BOOM! THE ECONOMY IS STUFFED!”
“What are jobs numbers like?”
“ITS ALMOST CHRISTMAS! WOOHOO!”
“What do you think about the bank deposit guarantee?”
“WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME? I SELL TV’S!”
Correct.
So isn’t he publishing the sales figures of every Harvey Norman store each week? Has anyone seen them? Are they tanking?
GP,
Is that you on the left and who is the silly old drunk you are propping up.
http://www.vexnews.com/news/1210/exclusive-pics-liberal-front-bencher-tony-abbott-rocks-the-party-with-saturday-night-antics/
Yeah sales for the month to October 26th were down almost 4%.
Good to see the Govt has finally seen sense and started trying to do something about the managed funds’ situation.
I thought they would eventually.
No 361
Put it this way, had they called it “Carbon Emission Reduction Scheme”, I would have no problems.
But you’d still insist that creationism is taught in science classes?
At least European markets have opened sharply higher tonight.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/business/29markets.html
Which blogger said both of these things? Which blogger is a hypocrite?
No 371
ShowsOn, I have already stated my position on creationism but as usual you continue to misrepresent it when you’ve run out of arguments.
For the benefit of others: so long as children are taught accepted scientific principles, there is no reason why they cannot thereafter be exposed to alternative opinions.
No 373
Calling Wayne Swan is a bumbling fool is not infantile, it is fact.
Hear Hear!
On the other hand, ShowsOn referred to Mr Abetz as a woman which is not fact.
So that means you think Astrology should be taught in Astronomy class, and alchemy should be taught in chemistry classes.
That is complete and utter nonsense. That is the type of irrational anti-intellectual rubbish that is killing your side of politics.
Erica Betz is not a woman, just a cross-dresser.
No GP it is your opinion. So it’s all right for you to do the unsubstantiated name calling but not other people. As I say, hypocrite.
Both GP and Glen are reading from the same Liberal discussion sheet as that Steve Ciobo on “Lateline” tonight. What page is it on?
They struggle turning pages, and their concentration waivers quickly, so now they only get 1 double sided page.
anytime u criticise someone for holding another view to yours by saying they are reading from a dicussion sheet shows you have lost the argument!
Don’t attack me Glen! You should be attacking G.P., the right wing Young Liberal!
You don’t want that extremist getting to the Senate ahead of you!
No 378
ShowsOn, that is rubbish and you know it. I am not at all positing that accepted scientific principle be supplanted by alternative opinion.
In history classes, I was exposed to the fact that people like David Irving denied that Hitler exterminated millions of jews. Does that mean I now hold similar holocaust-denying views? Of course not. Indeed, in science classes, I was also exposed to the fact that people used to think that the earth was flat and at the centre of the universe. Again, exposing students to this is not dangerous or hazardous to a child’s education so long as it is done so in a framework that primarily focuses on accepted principles.
No 384
My views are not extreme ShowsOn. Your argumentative style similar to the despicable Senator Conroy who likens critics of his censorship scheme to kiddie fiddlers when he can’t win an argument. You label people extremists when you can’t win either.
383 – Hardly Glen. What it means is that there is no use debating someone that just spouts the party line all of the time.
You can’t do this with evolution. It always gets hijacked by Liberal religious nut-jobs who don’t understand it, and just want another excuse to get religion taught in public schools.
GP – you were, and still sometimes show us, the most rampant name caller and often resorted to personal abuse. That was your argument style. I’ll give you credit for cleaning up your act but you really have some gaul criticising someone else for their harsh style.
“PV is undemocratic and we should have still had 1PP voting.”
Glen @ 297 really needs to learn his history. It was the conservatives that moved from first past the post, to preferential, so the conservative vote would not split between the Libs/Nats (say 30/30 each), allowing Labor to win on say 40.
But conservatives have never been much for Australian political history.
There was a nice little exchange in Question time at the Cairns Regional Parliament today after the Liberal National Party put a Freedom of Information request to the Treasurer to find out their own opposition policy costings.
No 388
Weak argument with no basis in reality. Evolution is the accepted scientific theory. Teacher has class on evolution, and as a short aside mentions that theological opinion subscribes to creationist/intelligent design, but concludes that this is not accepted science. What is the big deal? How is that anti-intellectual? Why is that I am the only one that is approaching this rationally rather than hysterically?
Because you’ve had a hysterectomy?
Why is that I am the only one that is approaching this rationally rather than hysterically?
Everyone else got over that rubbish by eighth grade.
No 391
Um, I fail to see the significance of that piece of blather from Mr Fraser. Had the Opposition not submitted their policies for costing, they’d be criticised for having uncosted promises. Now he’s calling them lazy for even bothering. You can’t have it both ways Mr Fraser. Perhaps you should be more focussed on how to avoid a repeat of Dr Death in your health system.
No 393
Thanks for admitting that you have no argument.
No 394
“Everyone” is not an atheist.
GP, any parent that wants their child to be taught that alternative only has to take them along to sunday school which is the appropriate venue for such things.
I would be exceedingly upset if any of my children were placed in that position in a public school. They all had the opportunity to be exposed to that on Sundays at church.
GP, they didn’t submit their policies for costing. Fraser added up the cost of the waffle the Liberal National Party have promised so far and it came to $Billion 64.5 with a year to go before the next election. They were asked which promises they would keep and had no idea so FOI’d Fraser in the hope that the Treasurer could solve their overspending dilemma.
The Liberal National Party have no coherent policies yet just expensive barrels of pork.
No 398
Fair enough. But what “position” would your children be in? Given my earlier example, they would still come away with the fact that creationism is not accepted science, but nevertheless exists as an alternative school of thought.
bob1234 i know Hughes did that and i also know he made voting complusory all bad moves. Just because the tories do something doesnt mean i automatically like it!
No 399
The Labor Party hires doctors that kill patients. We can all play this silly game.
Oh, Oh, play school is on. Time for bed.
Mr Glen and Mr Generic Person, Your Most Loved Person (Menzies) is having a TV show
dedicated to 50% of himself on ABC TV on Thursday Night.
Good column by Janet:
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/europe_worse_off_than_the_us/
Glen @ 402
What would you prefer then? For first past the post to have remained when the Country Party hit the scene? For the conservative vote to be divided, and Labor to win almost every election?
Yes, i’m sure you’d have MUCH preferred that!
A nice bit of history at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_by-election,_1918
Seems like Tip still has aspirations to run the country…
THE Reserve Bank made a mistake when it lifted interest rates during the 2007 election campaign, former treasurer Peter Costello said yesterday. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24567630-662,00.html
FORMER federal treasurer Peter Costello says the world economic crisis is nearing the bottom of its plunge http://www.theage.com.au/national/crisis-close-to-bottom-costello-20081028-5akw.html
So now Costello is second-guessing the independence of the reserve bank, and is looking in to his crystal ball and saying the world economic crisis is nearing the bottom. How would he know? All he did was swing in his hammock for 11 and a half years.
Yes We Can! @ 405
I still don’t get why these ‘New Right’ Howardites still love Menzies. He had economic socialist tendancies. He was to the economic left of Whitlam, Hawke/Keating, and Rudd.
But perhaps they just don’t understand the mixed messages that Liberal MPs put out… the whole ‘Howard’ was the best Prime Minister Australia ever had, only possibly second to Menzies.
It’s the way of keeping oldschool Liberals onside whilst spouting their love of Howardism.
So Costello reckons he knows better than the rest of the world of where the bottom is? Truth is he is like the guy at the pub who reckons the same because it has fallen so much already so it should start to come back up surely.
Costello knew and knows very little about finance and ecnomics and certainly is know economist so I wonder what he is basing his decisions on? Nothing of course. His prediction was probably made a hundred times during the Great Depression.
The important question for Costello to answer is why he wasted $300 bn of Australia’s surpluses and does he think he should make an apology to the Australian people for wasting a decade of prosperity and throwing away the future as Howard’s coward?
Hear hear Thomas @ 410
The wasted decade.
TP we can all be heroes and tip a 10% rise in the Australian Sharemarket today. If it wasn’t for a carping destructive opposition, it would probably be 15%.
http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/markets/overview/overview.asp
steve,
More importantly, the Liberal Party is the primary cause of cancer.
You forgot to mention that.
“If it wasn’t for a carping destructive opposition, it would probably be 15%.”
Does anyone actually swallow this type of garbage?
It may well be silliness ltep and dyno but no sillier than Tip Costello predicting the bottom of the world downturn by looking at the tea leaves.
I don’t see why anyone would be interested in what some random backbench member had to say.
FORMER federal treasurer Peter Costello says the world economic crisis is nearing the bottom of its plunge
While I hope he’s right, history suggests we won’t see the worst of it for another 2 or 3 years. The worst years of the Great Depression were 1932 and 1933. It took nearly 4 years for the 1987 crash to reach bottom in the 1991-2 ‘recession we had to have’ Much the same happened after the 1973 ‘oil shock’ too.
bob1234 @ 408
Someone wrote it on a piece of paper and handed it to him to memories
Itep @ 416, hang on. This is not your ordinary random backbencher.
Having wandered around in the desert for what must seem an eternity, with even his lost tribe having deserted him, Tip the Prophet is wetting himself with the financial crisis: Is this the oasis in my desert? Have the chips finally fallen in my favour? Is this the burning bush? Is this the mountain top? Or, hang on, is this the bottom of mountain? Now, where is that damned tablet? Let’s see $10 billion, less $2,500 billion, adds up to….Look at me, everybody! Look at me! Want me, need me! Look at meeeeee….
How does Tip “know” this? It was a vision that came to him in a dream as he lay slumbering in the hammock.
More carping, more whinging from the Opposition.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/29/2403969.htm
Steve my first reaction when I heard that “story” on NewsRadio this morning was “very inexperienced Treasurer?” Mr Swan has almost a year’s more experience than his Liberal shadow – the serial plagiarist.
Every day he accrues more experience, during the most challenging conditions any treasurer in living memory has ever had the opportunity to learn from.
Cuppa what got me is where are Steven Ciobo’s alternative solutions?
As a Liberal small business spokesman he’d probably have none, unless SerfChoices could be woven into it somehow.
It’s all very nice to launch vague attacks on the performance of the government but surely his job is to spell out what the Opposition would do in these difficult circumstances, so far the opposition just is not even having a swing at that.
Carping without offering a workable alternative position is not the way from opposition to government.
FFS all this whining at one another and you missed another poll.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll29oct.pdf
Economy and health top issues. Labor flogging Coalition in best managers in all of them except economy, and Coalition flogging Labor in national security.
The Greens are the highest they’ve been with the environment and climate change, with a quarter of people thinking they’re best to handle to the issues.
I thought the government’s response to mortgage trusts today (we can help them become banks) was very good. It politely points out why they won’t cave in to their demands but still shows they are willing to help.
I read Shanahan’s blurb on that earlier, Oz.
It appears that Brendan Nelson’s chapter in the new book about the Libs being a bunch of lost cases is essentially a reworked version of an article written by his former advisor, GP’s old friend in the Young Libs, Tom Switzer.
In the 1918 Swan by-election the turnout was low given it was a by-election just 63% if it were a federal election about 70% would have voted as was the norm back then and i would have thought given the 2 conservative parties were popular back then for that seat they’d have won.
I dont have an issue with that result. All people got one vote and the ALP won because they won the most.
All this plagiarism and incestuous cannibalism. The last time the Liberals had an original idea was years ago: SerfChoices. And even that wasn’t original, harking back to the centuries-ago era of Master and Servant employment “standards”.
If the government wants to go on the attack about these funds (not really desirable in terms of market confidence but still) they coudl point out the motives of teh critics. The opposition wants to make itself relevant. The fudn managers want to get a guarantee or keep their customers because the funds fees (and hence their salaries) are linked to the volume of deposits. economically it makes little difference if there is an outflow from them to banks and the banks still lend for the economy to function. But it hurts the fund managers. Trouble is lots of investment vehicles have taken a hit; there is nothing special about mortgage funds that they should be protected.
Reading an attack piece on the ABC in the Adelaide Advertiser today I had to laugh at this:
“Last week on Lateline, the ABC demonstrated its isolation from reality when it referred to the political editor of The Australian, Dennis Shanahan, as a “conservative” commentator. Shanahan is an experienced, insightful journalist whose character and political instincts could be described as mainstream.”
Oh come on… is this person serious?
Wtf.
$10 says Shanahan wrote that under a pseudonym.
LTEP
I think in that context “mainstream” means “common in News limited editor’s rooms”. Both Shanahan and the Advertiser should look up the meaning of “self-referrential falacy”.
There are two areas where I can see the financia crisis having an impact on Australia in the short term:
First, NY Times reports that GM adn Chrysler are seeking government cash to assist a merger. If as reported GM is out of cash, then Holden in Oz will have trouble scraping up capital to invest in (badly needed) more economical models:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/business/28auto.html?em
Second, I haven’t heard anything on Gunns in a while. I thought their pulp mill funding was due soon? They have no chance of getting it at present and. as I suggested in earlier posts, their claims that a Swedish forester would supply them $ were highly questionable. I have never seen any confirmation of them from the alleged partners. So there is a silver lining in every financial cloud – Gunn’s stupid pulp mill is dead
“Lenore Taylor, National correspondent | October 29, 2008
MALCOLM Turnbull moved part of his fortune out of a property fund just days before redemptions from the fund were frozen as investors rushed for the protection of the Rudd Government’s bank deposit guarantee.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24569270-5013404,00.html
Interesting!
All politicians should have to sell all their shareholdings once taking office or put them in the hands of some independent body.
I agree Oz. If they don’t they’re more than free to not enter parliament.
JC
from the article you linked to
“Yesterday, officials held talks with fund managers and regulators on ways to unlock the $25billion of frozen investment funds, including property trusts, that are threatening the retirement savings of 60,000 Australians. ”
so the hooha is about 60,000 aussies,who have dosh in investment funds.
not exactly life or death or economic chaos IMO
Ltep @ 433. That article was written by Chris Kenny a former adviser to Lord Downer and one of the most conservative (if not the most) journos in Adelaide. He is in the same class as Andrew Bolt.
Re the Albrechtson column quoted by GP at the top of the page. After a fortnight of surprisingly good sense, JA has lapsed back into primitivism. She laments the return of European statism. One can only say that European statism is looking quite good at the moment. I think we’ve had our little experiment with radical deregulationism, and look where it’s got us. There has to be a moment, GP, when beautiful theories hit the brick wall of empirical verification, or in this case falsification. That moment is now. It will be a loooong time before governments and electorates again listen to the siren song of economic libertarianism, so conservatives are going to have to get to grips with that if they want to win elections in the next decade or so.
Glen, the point is that historically, Labor has usually gained a higher vote than the major conservative party, only to be overtaken by Country/Nat preferences. If first past the post was kept, Labor would have won most elections.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll29oct.pdf
And this is the Howard/Costello legacy. Focus on the economy at the expense of everything else. To hell with health/education/everything else!
Oh, and of course ‘the boom years, wasted’.
Must be ‘red herring day’ – after the article about Mr Turnbull’s investments, we now have “Don’t frighten true love away – Turnbull”.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24570066-12377,00.html
What the?
(Haven’t tried posting with link before. If it doesn’t work, my apologies, and could someone please advise how to do it correctly – thank yoy)
You just copy and paste the link! Nothing to be scared of.
Good to see that in between talking down the economy Turnbull has time to give love advice.
Yet another scandal for the bumbling fool, Nathan Rees:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rees-minister-in-legtouching-scandal/2008/10/29/1224956079753.html
Yep, that’s Rees’ fault all right. That makes him a bungler. Just one question though, how?
This is going to be a really painful couple of years for Labor.
It seems like it’s almost daily that there’s some kind of issue they have to deal with. The perception that they’re rotten to core is so strong that it doesn’t matter who’s fault it actually is.
It’s just embarassing. It’s reached the point where no proof even needs to be offered and most people will believe it. This perception won’t go away until they’ve been in Opposition for a few years.
No 451
They deserve 20 years in the wilderness.
NSW Labor is bad. We can all agree on that. Pity we can’t all agree that the federal Liberals are bad too.
Isn’t there a NSW thread?
However the LNP do not deserve 20 years in Government. They’re pathetic, and the worst part is that they’re going to get in on the back of dissatisfaction with public transport, education, health and infrastructure when they have absolutely no policies except privatisation, which the public rejected.
When the Coalition wins Labor should use it as an excuse to clear out the factional warlods, refresh their lineup, come up with a cohesive set of policies and then rip into them.
If they fail to do at least the first two of those things they are a joke and deserve to be thrown out of the country. The people of NSW do not want, nor do they deserve, Eddie Obeid and Joe Tripodi running the state.
Good point, #454.
Judging by who kicked off the conversation, diverting attention to the inept State government must be the strategy for the week.
Hardly anyone reads the NSW thread – mainly because the Laborites are so embarrassed by the Rees government that they’d rather keep it “out of sight, out of mind”.
Rees seems like a good bloke, the problem is that the N.S.W cabinet is still full of the same deadwood/hacks, Tony Stewart a good example of the lack of talent in the government.
I wonder if GP would be so ready to talk about a NSW Liberal government facing the same problems as the present government. Me thinks not.
Which problems are they Gary Bruce?
evan14, Rees seems like a conman to me!
I absolutely have no time for the NSW government but blaming Rees for what a minister has supposed to have done to a woman is just plain silly. That doesn’t make Ress a bumbling fool. Other things may but not that. That was my point.
No 459
GB, the Howard Government was in for a roughly similar amount of time and never descended into the bilious sleaze that characterises the NSW government.
Let’s see now. After revelations of Buswell’s chair-sniffing (and other harassment-type behaviour) surfaced, the WA Liberals actually promoted the guy – to leader no less. Then the federal Liberal leader came out and said he had his full support.
I doubt NSW Labor will be promoting this guy, let alone to leadership.
I tale it ltep you haven’t been reading the papers re the NSW government?
465 – make that “take”.
Brogden! Remember his antics?
Anyway, when the Coalition wins public transport, schools, hospitals, planning regulations, developer donations, every other area of government responsibility are still going to be a complete mess.
No 464
Cuppa, of course everyone accepts Mr Buswell’s actions were idiotic.
No 467
Oz, every area of government responsibility in NSW is already a complete mess. A Liberal administration could not possibly be worse. Indeed, anything would be better than the current rabble.
They haven’t exactly outlined how they are going to be better. They’re going to slide in due to the general level of hate towards the government but they haven’t stipulated how they’re going to fix transport and congestion, they haven’t told us how they’re going to fix education, they haven’t told us how they’re going to fix hospitals, they haven’t told us how they’re going to re-democratise unpopular planning laws…
The problem facing the next NSW Liberal government will be one of meeting the expectations the voters will place on them. The Libs will go into the election promising to fix every ill and if expectations are not met the let down will be show up in future polls.
No 470
Oz, Rudd’s plans were equally blithe beyond his attractive sound bites.
I don’t know what relevance that has, other than to suggest that the Liberal’s will win. Something I’m not doubting. However it’s good of you to accept they have no actual policies and I wouldn’t go as far as to call O’Farrell mumbling about something a “soundbite”.
@472 GP
“Rudd’s plans were equally blithe beyond his attractive sound bites.”
More of the same not being able to accept they lost the election fairly and squarely with inferior policies and inferior leadership.
No 474
bob1234, you’re the only one under the delusion that Liberals cannot accept the election loss.
We lost the election. All I’m saying is that of course an incumbent can point to deficiencies in policy details because they have access to the entire public service to devise policy. The opposition does not have the same access. And even if they did have very detailed policy, they run the risk of it being pilfered by the government if its released long before an election.
I’d expect the Libs to get two terms in NSW. Here in Vic Kennett got in with a massive landslide after a disasterous ending to what was a good government for the first 8 years. There was no doubt that Kirner had to go and I helped her on her way, but I digress.
Kennett lasted 7 years.
NSW is a Labor state and will revert back to one in a relatively short time.
GP @ 475
“bob1234, you’re the only one under the delusion that Liberals cannot accept the federal election loss.”
That’s so hilarious I even forgot to laugh.
Generic Person at 468 wrote:
So in full knowledge of his actions (and presumably accepting them as idiotic), the WA Liberals still chose him as leader.
WAToday.com.au, 27 June 2008:
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/wa-liberals-heading-for-annihilation-analyst-20080627-2xzq.html
That was in June. In May 2008 stories of his grabbing an MP’s testicles were in the headlines
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23710071-2,00.html
And they still wanted him as leader.
Gary Bruce, I don’t read newspapers. Although I’m firmly of the opinion Labor could do well with time in opposition in NSW I personally would not vote Liberal as they, at the moment, represent many ideas I strongly oppose.
To back you up on your claim NSW is a Labor state, in the past 65+ years, the ALP has been in Government in NSW for 48 of them.
That’s exactly the point. A lot of people feel that way but a lot of people are going to vote Liberal anyway because they see things as seriously stuffed up and 13 years is a long time.
There’s going to a significant swing to The Greens as well, and unless something drastic happens to boost Labor, they’re going to pick up Balmain, Marrickville and maybe Heffron.
No 478
Kevin Rudd attended scores strip club and yet the ALP still wanted him to be leader.
Attending a strip club is hardly the scandal of the century.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/21/2010489.htm
A strip club? You’re still going on about that? It boosted his popularity, many men have done it!
As for quokkas, bras, and chairs, that’s a whole other ball game.
But thanks for your admission that you think they are all of the same level. It only reveals more about yourself.
GP
tawdry,tacky and totally irrelevant
……just another day at fib HQ
I scanned the latest US election thread GP and noticed there was one noticeable absence. Tell me, is it that you don’t follow US politics or is it that you are so embarrassed by the Bush/McCain fiasco that you’d rather keep it “out of sight, out of mind”?
6 May 2008:
June 2008, Buswell survives a leadership spill.
I’ll be voting for Doyle in the Melbourne Council elections coming up in November.
I hope William has a thread for it.
GB @ 486
Going by his Republican image, definately a case of embarrassment of the Republican ticket. Can’t say I blame him, their 2008 ticket is a shocker. An erratic 71yo, ready to keel over and be replaced by a ditsy redneck woman with no idea about anything.
Buswell was already leader when the chair-sniffing story broke. There was no incident with a quokka.
You betcha!
There was a leadership spill post-ballot.
Anyway, is actual treasurer not a promotion over opposition leader?
william
I take it you have spoken to the quokka?
Is there a book coming out or was he/she paid off?
I dunno why I keep reading The Australia. It’s pathetic.
It appears George Bush and now Malcolm Turnbull are the only people left defending free markets.
There are 14 paragraphs in that article and only 3 sentences are not direct quotes from Turnbull.
Woaaaaah I missed this:
““The lesson there of course is not more regulation but less.”
Is he joking? How can he advocate a bank deposit guarantee, extended to market-based institutions and say “Less regulation is the answer”?
He was not promoted from Opposition Leader to Treasurer.
494 Oz, you know what the answer is and most people know it.
Would you call Treasurer a step up from Opposition leader? If yes, then whether it’s a “promotion” or not is semantics. He was rewarded by the Liberal Party with the respected position of Treasurer of WA after the scandal.
GB I seriously do not know the answer. It’s an addiction.
Unlike Americans, Australians don’t have an aversion to regulation if it helps their cause. I think Turnbull is heading down the wrong track on this.
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/wa-liberals-heading-for-annihilation-analyst-20080627-2xzq.html
William, it is reported that Buswell “survived a leadership spill”. I take it to mean the leadership was declared open (”spilled”), with the outcome being that they elected to keep him in the position. They had the chance, after stories of his testicle-grabbing, chair-sniffing and bra-snapping had come to light, to demote or even dump him, but chose him to lead, continue leading.
No 494
That’s funny. Lindsay Tanner said the same thing:
Care to retract that, Oz?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24567565-7583,00.html
Tanner’s not calling for “less regulation”, unlike Turnbull.
On top of that, no one has explained the hypocrisy in supporting increased intervention in banking and financial areas and saying “we need less regulation”.
No 486
I don’t really follow US politics in great detail and even on the odd occasion that I do, it’s boring and repetitive. Bring on polling day.
If Turnbull has such a problem with over regulation, will he be proposing the abolishment of all the reams of extra Tax laws etc that the Libs brought in during their last period in office?
I’ve already commented previously that it was more than a good bet that Turnbull had a good bit of his money in one of these funds.
I also said that it was more than probable that there are a number of other Libs with similar investments.
Turnbull probably didn’t warn them when he made his withdrawal and is now trying to help his colleagues to be able to get their money out before their Funds go belly-up.
No 502
Oz, Tanner is the Minister for Deregulation. Stop lying to yourself and others.
No 505
Come on scorpio, this is hardly driven by self-interest. When you have 30 billion in savings frozen, a lot of people are going to be affected.
Turnbull has ALWAYS been driven by self-interest. As Kerry O’Brien said,
“Four years in to parliament, and you’re now leader of the Liberal Party. What took you so long?”
Here’s an (often said) sobering thought.
The next Liberal Party (or whatever name they call themselves by then) is not yet in parliament.
*forgot ‘Prime Minister’ after the ().
“I don’t really follow US politics in great detail and even on the odd occasion that I do, it’s boring and repetitive.”
Especially when your side is losing and about to be routed!
(To be honest, I feel slightly the same way about Italian politics.)
No 511
LOL Italian politics is farcical. Even as someone of Italian heritage, I can’t be bothered with it….:D
Ah, he’s the minister for “Business deregulation”!
Means he can regulate financial institutions all he likes.
Anyway, the Liberals can’t take credit for APRA and advocate a policy (If it can be called a policy) of government intervention and at the same time say “We need less regulation”.
No 513
Financial institutions are also businesses Oz. Just admit that you’re wrong and move along.
Bob @ 509 and 510
I remember people saying before 1996 ‘the next Liberal Prime Minister is not yet in Parliament’.
It is possible that it’s true this time, but if so it will be the first time: not only was Howard already in Parliament in 1983, but Fraser was already in Parliament in 1972, Menzies was already in Parliament in 1941, and so on as you work backwards.
GP @ 514
Cease it. The deregulation of business practice as a whole, and the deregulation of financial markets are quite different.
I suggest you read the Department’s agenda. In doing so, you’ll realise there’s no clash between what it advocates and intervening in financial sectors.
You do understand that your line of argument applies to Turnbull as well, with greater emphasis? Who has actively called for less regulation since the crisis began, something the Rudd government hasn’t done.
JD @ 515
It will happen. Turnbull and Nelson are duds, Costello has burnt too many bridges.
Yes, but there may be liberal backbenchers who are not in our view at the moment that could potentially become PM. I certainly don’t see it being any of the current fronch bench.
Perhaps it can be Julie Bishop, reading from someone elses’ script.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24569996-601,00.html
Problem solved. I eagerly await the next “issue” pensioners come up with as an excuse to criticise the government.
LOL, good one ltep.
The public will not vote for allbull – just watch future polls. As they worsen the same pressure to dump allbull will mount as it did with brenda.
tip is sitting there praying this will happen and that his star will start to shine again.
Ha
and of course people skills – the mad monk still dreams of the lodge. Double Haha !
Costello (joke) claims Turnbull is …
<Sydney Morning Herald, 12 September 2008
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/09/11/1220857739971.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Check it out, Malcolm has a Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/malcolmturnbull/
Malcolm at Bing Lee! Malcolm at Charcoal Chicken! Where will he go next?! KFC? Coles?!?!?
I suppose Julie Bishop would allow the next Prime Minister to be someone who isn’t in parliament yet, whoever her chief of staff is at the time.
To the local Maserati dealership? to assure them the Liberals are defending the right of Maserati drivers to not pay additional luxury car tax.
Julie Bishop is losing any credibility she might have had. Another incident involving plagiarism as she might as well go back to being a lawyer.
Damaged goods is the tag looming large. She has little in the way of runs on the board in any case and her reluctance to see serf choices unwound will haunt her as long as she remains in parliament, particularly at election times.
A gift to labor – free kick at goal.
No 526
The Luxury Car Tax is an abomination. As the FCAI has noted, the LCT affects people buying cars in the 50k-70k range the most, which is hardly evidence of extreme wealth.
Also, justify the reasons as to why a Maserati driver should pay more tax? Wealthly people already pay many times more tax than the average person. This is just government class-war gouging at its best.
The Liberals know all about class warfare. SerfChoices, the most radical IR in a hundred years being a prime example, aimed at gouging millions of employees.
Workplace laws have revived an old class war
Sydney Morning Herald, 16 June 2007
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/workplace-laws-have-revived-an-old-class-war/2007/06/15/1181414544080.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Cuppa, how do you find old articles so quickly? Do you have a database? Good on you.
Oz, last couple of years I have tended to save articles of interest.
Before SerfChoices, believe it or not, I was politically neutral. A swinging voter.
No 529
Yeah, if you call creating 500,000 jobs “gouging employees”.
And we all know none of those 500 000 jobs would’ve been created under a fairer system.
Wait so, has the Liberal Party jettisoned WorkChoices on not? It’s either not mentioned or defended.
The Parliamentary Liberal party has officially killed the policy. It is dead and won’t be resurrected.
But why would the Libs kill off a policy they, and you GP, think was such a beneficial policy?
Could it be that the masses out there didn’t like it because, wait for it, it didn’t benefit it them?
Or maybe they just didn’t sell it well enough.
A $121 million only goes a short way these days.
Just because the public doesn’t support something it doesn’t mean it isn’t the right decision to take. If the public had supported Work Choices it wouldn’t somehow have made the policy right.
I’m not arguing with any of that, Cuppa @ 500 – all I’m saying is that Buswell has not been promoted since he became Opposition Leader in January. His seniority within the Liberal Party did not change after the election.
538 -539 Well, why can it then? Good policy shouldn’t be thrown out that easily should it? If the Libs see it as good policy why don’t they have the Pynes to keep it and sell it properly?
Of course not, but the two reasons why it could have been killed off are a) The Liberals now think it’s a bad idea or b) The public quite adamantly said they don’t want it and by keeping it they aren’t getting elected.
Now if the Libs come out and say a) that throws up a whole lot of questions about their judgement. Why is it bad now and why wasn’t it bad last year? Why’d they spend over a hundred million telling us how good it was, only to admit it was bad later on?
No 542
The answer to your scenario is (B) – clearly Workchoices was not popular and thus the Liberals lost the 2007 election. To continue to pursue it would be electoral suicide.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/10/29/1224956046591.html?feed=fairfaxdigitalxml
The scrapping of State government and amalgamation of councils into regional governments has been a pet notion of mine for a while. Good work LGA.
And that answers your question Itep. The Liberal Party are based around what gets them votes, not what they actually believe is right or what they spend millions of taxpayer dollars trying to convince us was right.
WorkChoices?.. Never ever. It’s dead. It was killed by voters at the last election.
No 545
Oz, both parties believe in principles which simply do not have popular support. That is the reality, whether we like it or not. That doesn’t mean we have no principles.
No 546
The GST was resurrected by voters in 1998. It still amazes me that Laborites continue to ignore the fact that the Liberals won the 1998 election on a platform entirely based on introducing a broad-based consumption tax. They did not have similar success in 2007.
Either way, I’d like to see Rudd put his political future on the line for something he truly believes in. Howard did.
The answer to your scenario is (B) – clearly Workchoices was not popular and thus the Liberals lost the 2007 election. To continue to pursue it would be electoral suicide.
So is talking down the Australian economy electoral suicide but the Shadow ministry does it daily on automatic pilot without even considering the issue. You would actually better off talking about workchoices.
So WorkChoices isn’t dead either then?
No 549
Steve, Wayne Swan has been talking the economy down since he came to office.
Any suggestions for a headline? How about “Turnbull led rush on non-banks” or “Turnbull among first to panic”
Of course not Dario It’s political suicide and not to be talked about before the election, Scrubbed from the talking points.
GP, the Liberals have been talking Wayne Swan down since the day he became treasurer.
In the 1998 election the anti-GST ALP got 50.98% of the tpp (http://www.aec.gov.au/Elections/federal_elections/1998/hor/two_party.htm) and so the Howard Government should not have been returned but was because of the single member system and so did not have a democratic mandate to introduce the GST or govern.
GP @ 548.
The Liberals scrapped in 1998 – it was hardly a ringing endorsement.
Australians hated ‘Fightback’ in 1993. And they hated it being introduced (in part) by stealth by Howard in 1998. And they hated it again in 2007.
The only difference between 1998 and 2007 was the amount of seats that Howard had to play with.
The level of distaste for the ideology of the Libs (when they are being true to it) was the same in 1998 as it was in 2007 and it always will be.
Sorry the link did not come through properly.
http://www.aec.gov.au/Elections/federal_elections/1998/hor/two_party.htm
No 556
Rubbish Kit. The reason why Hewson lost in 1993 was because he failed to properly enunciate his policies. He ran a dumb campaign, and he deserved to lose. In 1998, Howard and Costello devoted unbelievable energy to explaining the GST and the reasons for its introduction. And they won.
Because of the anti-democratic single member electoral system!
No mandate!
GP the only reason Howard brought in WorkChoices is because his head swelled, he looked at the figures they were sitting on and the press saying that Labor would need two elections to come back to Government and thought he was unbeatable.
He thought he could pull the wool over our eyes with a huge taxpayer funded advertising campaign and unfortunately for him it didn’t work.
He ran a dumb campaign, and he deserved to lose.
GP, he ran a good campaign but deserved to lose. It was only in the dying days of the campaign the loss became apparent.
No 560
Part of the problem with Workchoices is that it added more regulation than it removed, it was rushed and it was poorly sold.
That said, for all Labor’s bluster over the policy, they’ve only modified it rather than abolish it altogether.
A very interesting article by Alan Ramsey, Sydney Morning Herald, 18 August 2004 on the Rodent performing callisthenics with the truth re: the GST (and other issues besides). A taster:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/17/1092508474312.html
No 561
Rubbish steve, he ran a very poor campaign even though the fundamental policy work on which the campaign was based was detailed and sound.
That’s true. It’ll certainly be interesting to see how ‘Forward with Fairness’ looks when it’s introduced.
No 563
Alan Ramsey is an ALP shill. He has no credibility.
William at number 540
Thanks for that. I retract my statement about Buswell being promoted after news of his harassment-type activities had broke. In fact the Liberals chose to keep him as leader in a leadership spill, in full knowledge of his actions.
No 567
Yes but that’s because they did not believe there was anyone else to take over the leadership. It wasn’t until Colin Barnett withdrew his retirement plans after Buswell resigned that there was a clear path forward.
564 GP, nice attempt to rewrite history, there was nothing wrong with Hewson’s campaign but plenty wrong with the policy. The main one being that people wouldn’t buy it.
No 564
Steve, if it was a good campaign he would have won. He didn’t because his campaign failed to explain the biggest tax reform in federal history. Howard and Costello did explain it properly and they won.
Not at all GP, it was the complex policy. Cake and icing etc.
Generic Person, you are a Liberal shill, and, given Howard’s cavalier approach to the truth over many years and issues, and your fervent, uncritical support of nearly everything he did, plus your propensity to shoot the messenger, and your defense of the hated SerfChoices, it would appear it is you who has “no credibility”.
Turnbull is Joe Average:
the boat might be the same, but methinks Malcolm isn’t travelling steerage…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/29/2404504.htm
No 571
Steve, you cannot call it a good campaign if he lost. Sorry, but it’s the truth whether you’re talking about Liberal or Labor.
A chair sniffer is the best the WA Liberals could come up with. How fitting.
No 572
Alan Ramsey refuses to accept that when Howard changed his mind on the GST, he took it to an election and won. If he doesn’t have the intellectual honesty to accept that, then he has no credibility.
And as for your adamant hatred of Workchoices, just remember that Julia Gillard has retained most of it including many of the severe restrictions on unions.
No 575
Oz, you can keep talking about Buswell, but the reality is that Barnett formed government after becoming leader a day before the campaign begun. I think that’s more of an indictment on the corrupt incumbent Labor government than the WA Liberals.
You don’t think people have won after running poor campaigns, GP? Or lost despite giving campaigns their all?
So when Howard declared the GST “dead”, sending out pressers saying it would “never ever be part of Liberal Party policy in the future”, what do you take that as having meant?
GP I was merely restating what you said, in a more blunt manner.
GP
Workchoices went too far, Labor has stopped AWAs, re-instated unfair dismissal, these are huge differences. Workchoices lite is crud.
But Workchoices and the casualisation of many jobs will help Labor. The official statistics on unemployment will look good for at least another year. People will be under-employed but this will not show in official figures.
If you look at the real cost of intrducing WC it was over $500 million (check the budget papers).
Half a billion bucks wasted for what?
No 579
He changed his mind. Now you can call that lying, but I believe it’s not a lie. He took it to an election which is about as honest as you can be about it.
GP, that is indeed good news that Liberals are happy to change their minds. Now if you can only convince them that there is a Global Credit Crisis and can they please stop talking down the Australian economy at every opportunity, the country would thank you for it.
GP, what do you take his statements as having meant?
GP, I don’t agree with anything you’ve said in the last few pages and agree with the general contention that you are an official Liberal Party shill.
Having got that off my chest, I do agree with you on the following matters:
1. Blu Ray (and the now defunct HD-DVD) are superb media.
2. There is no discernable difference between 1080p and 1080i
3. Brando in Mutiny On The Bounty gave one of the classic (if high camp) performances of all time, and it looks fabulous in high-definition.
You need a bigger screen than even a 60″ plasma or LCD to truly appreciate 1920 x 1080 high definition images. I use a projection system with an anamorphic lens for ’scope presentations, on a 12 foot wide (by 53 inch high) screen. Only then do you really appreciate hi-def. As the screen gets larger you just see more detail. Fine films transcend politics, I am forced to admit.
No 584
At the time he did not intend for the GST to form part of the Liberal platform. He has since changed his mind and he did the right thing and took it to an election. I can’t believe you’re still going on about it.
P.S.
4. Playstation-3 is the way to go with Blu-Ray.
No 587
Yep agree with all your film comments. I picked up a PS3 last Christmas. A wonderful machine and great value.
No 583
The Opposition is not talking down the economy.
I have no problems with a GST per se. It was supported by Keating as “option c” and really should have been Labor policy. What I have a big problem with is the fact that people were inadequately compensated for its introduction and that Rat Man ripped off the States. Plus the Democrats turned it into a dogs breakfast.
Think of the stakes the Liberals were playing for. Its aim was clearly to hurt their political opponents. If they had gotten away with SerfChoices, the Labor Party would inevitably have been hurt, possibly slowly wiped out altogether.
Andrew Charlton, The Age, 30 September 2007
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/pm-of-ulterior-motives/2007/09/29/1190486626917.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Sydney Morning Herald, 4 April 2007:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/union-decline-puts-heat-on-labor/2007/04/03/1175366240481.html
“The Opposition is not talking down the economy.”
Did they announce a policy change this afternoon?
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/pm-of-ulterior-motives/2007/09/29/1190486626917.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
The right-wing rodent, proudly self-declared as “the most conservative leader the Liberals ever had”, using the legislative powers of the federal parliament, to seek to eliminate the major rival to Liberal political hegemony.
A one (major) party state. I believe that was the rodent’s goal.
Nice work Possum.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2008/10/29/pollytrack-october/#more-2532
Not the way that I read the transcript.
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1937
Can someone remind me again of exactly how the Opposition is talking down the economy?
Does Malcolm Turnbull have a conflict of interest in seeking a Treasury briefing on “investment funds” ?
He managed to withdraw his money before funds were frozen, was this before the 12th Oct? How long does it take for the pecuniary interest register to report changes?
Will the 60,000 people affected be happy they did not have the quality advice that Turnbull seems to have?
Not saying Turnbull has done anything wrong – but how can he pretend to be the champion of people who have had their nest egg frozen when he knew to get his funds out just in time?
Well he couldn’t really tell the public to do the same could he?
Why?
How the hell can Andrew Robb sit there and say “The Government shouldn’t get into debt to fund infrastructure”.
THEY WOULDN’T HAVE TO IF YOU DID SOMETHING SIFGYSGRFSGFOW:IHSFGOWFVKWUFGWFHFHSKJFGSfgoadhgagbdsjgbsklhgbsghvdahjvHGDFTYA^RI7tq9t08t80whgurhgw948hgwrgiurbgwrbgwrougewrgboreg
Ah, I’m so angry.
I do not see Rudd’s ‘guarantee’ & decisions same as most here Taking 3 specific decions he scores 1.5 out of 3 and with weighting of each decision’s importonce makes about 65% to 75% score
Th run on non APRA funds was because Rudd (correctly) very publicly guaranteed Bank deposits In effect Rudd was saying nothing else was guaranteed So of course people then took actually notice of th PM of Australia Trying to blame anyone but Kevin Rudd for th ‘run’ like Turnbull, th ‘oz’ or anyone else for th stampede is absurd Delays since in a Rudd Govt reponse has further worsened Managed Funds liquidity status Govt should wear this blame
Redemptions pre th Rudd anouncement was some Aussie investors individually “reading” th bad storm clouds in USA about non Banks , but rudd publicly confirmed these fears
Secod decision was th detail on our Guarantee …1 millon cap/fee & its range th insurance bit A very sensible framework announced by our Govt Although they lose a few points for some delay in getting this detail determined & then publicised Th million figure was always about target being approx 95% of all Bank deposits , and around 95% of deposits was min needed for th guarantee to hav credibility
Th first decision was Rudd’s best decison and th most crucial to make …to decide on a speedy , simplistic , unambiguous & undetailed basic message to all Australians that all our Banks were 100% safe as our whole govt was guaranteeing them This decisive step ensured our whole financial system wouldn’t be undermined & with it th whole economy (it will go into histary books with big plus)
Now to th Managed Funds arguments Firstly , shares ar liquid (investors can get your capital + or – losses) immediately whereas th funds ‘capital’ bit is frozen so no capital access available for capital needs (only pensions) Freeze is supposedly for 4-6 months , not sure what will dramatically change in future to allow them to fully unfreeze
Secondley , just because people chose a higher risk for higher yield is no argument for doing nothing except crazy idealogy Since Keating people hav been “encouraged” by Govt into superannuation to weany us of tax payer paid pensions Worse there’s been no hint from any Govt Labor or Liberal of a high risk such as this crisis nor from financal community Worser most of these Manged Funds were/ar well run…all Govt & community Groups hav supported this 26 billion sector existence (warts & all) So those who say bad luck to th investors
should tink again at th “encouragement” given ordinary aussies , and th consequences of this Sectors meltdown
Solutions ar difficult to avoid massive losses and th big 4 Banks fully taking over this sector as well with even more undesirables market dominance Managed Investments cann’t be obviously guaranted at all but not on idealology but as govt doesn’t know th viability of there portfolios (being pooled market linked investments) Rudds decision to fast track them to ‘banking’ type status is inadequate (but it buys some ‘time’ but not much) “confidence” is everything , afterall Rudds Bank guarantee of 1.2 trillion worked and th Govt did not hav that money in its back pockets
Perhaps some ronanomics , liquidity & confidence ar needed ..perhaps an insurance/fee hit will hav to be taken by Depositors to stabilize & perhaps after case by case very urgent prudential audit some form of redeemable pref shares to support it short term and/or an entry finally under some/full APRA supervision & criteria And our Malcolm , a typical opposition Leader , politcs number one , when has there been parisianship , some reckless statements early on but with some policy void now on Managed Funds he has no answer & not sure he reely wants to understand , whereas at least with Julie Bishop she reely knows she doesn’t understand
Turnbull from the Liberal Party doorstop still believes the Australian over the evidence of the Ken Henry at estimates last week.
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1937
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/its-out-much-awaited-ken-henry-hansard.html
Has any one else stopped arguing with GP for long enough to notice what was reported today about the front page splash in Saturday’s O.O. about the P.M.’s conversation with Dubbya.
At the time I read it, I thought it passing strange, to say the least, that such detailed reporting of quotes from someone who would have had to be in the room where the conversation was taking place was anonymous. This, on the basis, that if you were a reporter who was being gifted with such information, you would not expose your informer to the extent they clammed up.
It has apparently been a source of embarassment, reportedly, to the P.M., according to Michelle Gratten, with a headline about Rudd telling porkies; a slightly less sensational report in the SMH and a predictably over the top attack from Bolt.
The story has since died, however, I find the continued Rovian tactics against the P.M. obscene, as GP would say.
I’m confused about the Libs position. What do they support?
Costello says “too bad, we didnt make people go into managed funds”. True, though you DID do everything possible to encourage it before July 1 last year except throw in steak knives. He seems to be saying “dont touch it, govt” – much like Rudd/ Swan.
Talcum seems to be generally critical, for reasons he wont elaborate on, with no alternative policy provided. Plus he’s pulled his own money out before the guarantee, merely highlighting that these funds were in trouble beforehand, and that he’s been talking out his rear since.
But at the end of the day, none of these funds have actually collapsed – so technically there’s no problem.
Id say the real problem is this: lets allow pensioners to invest in bank deposits with the same tax benefits provided to other schemes, managed trusts etc etc (eg that only 50% of it is considered an ‘asset’ for pension purposes). Fact is, these funds have been getting a free kick off government for years, a leg up of monstrous proportions. Retirees have been strongly encouraged into them by bad govt policy.
Id be tackling that angle – allow the same tax benefits to low risk behaviour. Current policy setting are insane.
lefty e, they support getting back into power, for their own and their mates benefit. That’s all.
The problem is lefty e, that it is the well advised that were causing the rush on funds by withdrawing cash and threatening the financial well being of others. Once confidence is restored the freeze will come off.
Didn’t the Australian Office of Financial Management buy billions of mortgage backed securities in Sept? Oh yeah thats right, Julie Bishop knew all about it.
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1667
So after the Govt. pouring $8 billion into this sector, Malcolm decides to pull his cash out, to invest in Hong Kong.
When will people realise that it was the Turnbull’s of this world that caused the mortgage funds to freeze deposits?
No 604
HSO, do you have a link? I remember hearing about this on Insiders. But certainly if the details of private conversations between Bush and the PM have been made public, it would be a serious embarrassment for the PM, not to mention a breach of trust.
No 606
What Opposition does not want to be in power? Honestly HSO, please think before you speak.
What Opposition does not want to be in power?
The current Federal Opposition by the way they are behaving.
No 611
They are behaving responsibly.
Yeah, the polls really are reflecting that aren’t they?
No 613
The polls are mostly meaningless this far out from an election.
He obviously leaked it himself. Made him look like a legend.
But the trend away from the Liberal Party is encouraging.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2008/10/29/pollytrack-october/
No 615
Maybe he’s a legend to you, but to any foreign leader or diplomat, Rudd would look like a total imbecile, incapable of holding private meetings in confidence.
GP
Does a private conversation between our PM and an imbecile count?
You haven’t read the article so you have absolutely no idea what you’re commenting on.
No 618
lol. Good point.
Ron,
Spot on with your analysis.
On Saturday on the previous thread I gave my ratings of the leaders’ performance during the crisis: Rudd “ok, no better, no worse” and Turnbull “poor”. Sounds like you’re not a million miles away from there, either.
Good to see you back.
Because that would have been talking the economy down, stupid!
And we wouldn’t want to do thatm, would we?
Far better to just vote unconditionally for the government’s measures and then white-ant them from then on, culminating in a total condemnation a few days later. When an interviewer asks, “Why did you vote for them?” just tell them, “No, no, no, Kerry… you don’t understand!”
Everyone except Malcolm Turnbull, Rainmaker to the self-funded retirees is a fool. And Mal’s gonna remind us of that every time he gets the opportunity.
dateline special on SBS now on
quite good coverage of ground level politics
Generic Person @ 609. The original report was as I said in Saturday’s OO. The reports of the other people I mentioned you could find by trawling the archives of the papers .
@ 606. What do you take me for? And don’t answer that for you clearly take me for a fool. You seem to have difficulty with understanding that some of the population are able to discriminate between party’s that are in it for themselves and party’s that work for the wider benefit of the whole country. You clearly belong to the former, and your party’s current standing in the polls reflect what the rest of us think of you.
This thread is moving too fast for these tired brain cells: 621 in response to 599.
Obviously the Bush-Rudd convo was leaked at the US end in cahoots with the Murdoch press and/or the Liberals (not that there’s much difference), as a clumsy atempt to make Rudd look bad. Michelle Grattan said as much on the ABC this morning.
No 624
Unless Michelle can substantiate that claim, she should get a new prescription.
Adam, ouch! GP, finally the story makes a little sense.
I’ll take Michelle Grattan’s word over the Liberal stooges of the Murdoch press every day of the week.
Another question for the pollbludgers, if any one knows. Why is Malcolm making decisions about his own money? Isn’t there a conflict of interest here?
No 628
It’s his money, he can do what he likes with it so long as his interests are declared.
Adam in Canberra @ 625. Can you tell me why you think that it was the US end that leaked?
They were the only people in the room with an interest in doing so.
As for “substantiating her claim,” she doesn’t have to. Journalists report what they know, and they don’t disclose their sources. Whether you believe them or not depends on your opinion of their professional skill and veracity, based on their record over time. Grattan has a higher reputation, established over a longer period of time, than anyone else in Australian journalism with the possible exception of Laurie Oakes.
No 627
Of course you would Adam, but the fact is that she hasn’t substantiated her counterargument, so it has no credibility.
Ron 602
I agree with most of that as a fair summary. I also agree that many people have been encouraged by successive governments to invest in these sort of funds, and the sector has been under-regulated (unlike banks) after Howard post the HIH collapse only placed a code of self regulation on the industry. That was a cop-out. For some real ideology see:
http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1123/PDF/report.pdf
However I disagree on assisting the managed funds. Choosing a higher risk for higher yield IS a reason not to get a government guarantee. Besides, people don’t really want a government guarantee on their value – there is no risk they will become insolvent. Instead people just want to get their money out now. It isn’t the government’s job to bail them out in that way.
The fact is these funds are not absolutely at call and are not absolutely guaranteed. It is no fairer to taxpayers to guarantee all of them than it would be to guarantee equity funds. The money is not lost, but it will take time for people to access it. As others have said, some of the freezes predated the bank guarantees anyway.
This is not meant to be ideology, but I don’t see any quick, painless way out for these funds. Your solutions amount to the government handing money over to them, not just giving a guarantee. That money is going to be needed for other things now as the economy slows. The solution is waiting for stability to return to markets. In the mean time, I agree that assistance (non-means tested) should be given to people with money in them.
WOW! You got him there G.P., you can’t prove a universal negative!
Surely you’ll be awarded the Fields Medal forthwith.
I don’t see why Rudd or his office would leak private conversations with world leaders when by doing so it makes Rudd look bad in so many ways, not least in the eyes of other world leaders. It just doesn’t ring true.
Clearly, Generic Person @ 630, you have no difficulty with separating out your own interests when you are a member of parliament and decisions about same, from decisions about the country’s best interests, i.e., they are the same. No wonder your party is in such a parlous state.
Thanks, Adam in Canberra. Makes sense.
Neither has the “Rudd’s office leaked it” claim.
If you only have
oops
If you only have 10 minutes a day for politics, listen to Michelle Gratten with Fran Kelly on RN at 7.30am. That’s all you need to know.
No 636
Oh please HSO. Your argument is meaningless innuendo, as is Michelle Grattan’s.
Gary Bruce @ 646. That was another thing that had me suspicious from the initial report in the OO. It’s quite weird that the Rovian tactics are being employed here so much. Why?
GP,Just for the sake of entertainment remind me again what the Liberal Party talking points had to say about the Rudd phone call to George Bush. I do believe it was a theory about the leak being at this end.
Bush spoke into the correct end at all times.
Obviously you don’t know anything about how real journalists work, GP. Your mates in the Murdoch slime-factory can just make stuff up, but real journalists who work for real newspapers like the Age actually have, you know, sources, to whom they actually, you know, talk. Grattan doesn’t deal in “innuendo” – that’s your field. If she says something is the case, you can bet that someone very well placed has told her so.
[It’s quite weird that the Rovian tactics are being employed here so much. Why?}
Harry, just have a look at the current MSM share prices and their profit figures for the last financial year and an awful lot is explained.
In 11.5 years, Howard poured $2b into sustaining the Libs in office. The tap has been turned off and they are desperate for the gravy train to get back on the rails again and continue the feeding of enormous amounts of public money back into their coffers again.
Adam, the Age is a substandard Newspaper.
As compared to?
Generic Person at number 625 wrote of Michelle Grattan:
Quoting a despicable attack line that originated with one Peter Cowardello, the biggest bully and craven poltroon in federal politics. One who, on occasion after occasion, going as far back as 1994, always chickened out of putting himself into the position of leadership where he’d really have to fight, rather than simply sound his loud mouth off.
The kind of person Generic Person seems to “admire”.
The Australian or The Financial Review.
I wonder who wrote this?
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1667
The Australian is no more than Liberal Party surplus toilet paper. The AFR is a very good paper, if one avoids Laura Tingle.
Generic Person @ 642. You refer to me @ 636, but that’s Gary Bruce. I’d suggest asking your boss, supervisor, manager, whomever, for a break. I’d also be suggesting some proper time to actually research whatever it is you’re going to post about. The endless repetition of particular phrases, etc. is about as interesting as watching football, for me, and as about as convincing for a member of the football indifference club.
It’s just unutterably stupid and boring. Sorry, but if you’ve got something useful to say about the tensions currently apparent, politically and economically, across both domestic and international scenarios, I’d be more than willing to discuss them.
I have a step-daughter who is a hot shot corporate lawyer who is a Lib. voter, and I have more intelligent conversations with her than I’ve ever had with you.
No 652
The Age/SMH is no more than ALP surplus toilet paper.
What is wrong with Laura Tingle?
WOT! Even below YOUR standards!?
How doth it be so?”
The Financial Review, aren’t they the ones who used to kick Howard on a daily basis when he was Treasurer. They seemed to consider him the worst Treasurer in this country’s history and they always had good reasons why they never liked what he did.
No 656
Yes, regardless of his Treasury woes, he was Australia’s Greatest Prime Minister.
Scorpio at 651 wrote:
I’d be surprised if it was Mesmer-eyes. Too many big words.
No 653
HSO, on my screen no 642 is written by you.
I think I now understand what constitutes a good newspaper in GP’s mind – one that has a conservative bias.
You’ve failed to substantiate your counterargument.
You lose.
Or day I say… checkmate?
CONNECT FOUR!
Mesmeralda worried about upward pressure on interest rates? What?
http://www.sfe.com.au/content/sfe/products/trt/targetratetracker.htm
Not ashamed to admit it: tears running down my face at the conclusion of tonight’s live ABC presentation of La Boheme.
Choke… gets me every time. I’m written off even before the end of the first act. By the finale I’m a basket case.
Long live music. I hope that’s ont thing we can all agree on. Puccini is God.
Generic baby @ 655. When , if ever, will you ever get it, that this is unutterably tedious and unproductive, and really, really, just so unutterably tedious, unproductive and boring. God, it’s so boring, so endlessly, unremittingly boring. If we could distill your essence and manufacture it, we’d have a money spinning sedative. If you’ve got something useful to say, please do.
HSO, all jobs are boring, Liberal shill GP’s moreso than most, I’d imagine. And surely more soul-destroying, coming on here, day after day, defending the meanest, most miserable mob to ever darken the doorstep of Parliament House. And without even a lousy toilet break written into his SerfChoices “agreement”. Must need the money bad, is all I can say…
Harry, you know the old saying ” empty vessels make the most noise”.
The main problem being that it is not music to the ears. Just a boring, droning, background noise that I’m sure everyone has long wished would stop.
You can never be sure if a story you read in the OO is true, false or manufactured but you can be sure that more often than not they are bent to support the LNP and undermine the Govt, that is what there is little point in buying it.
The Age is one of the few papers you can buy where you actually might get to the truth of a matter.
No, no, Cuppa, Young Liberal hacks do this stuff for love, not money. GP is no doubt trying to get on the shortlist for the Berowra by-election – the shortlist is known in Sydney YL circles as “the Dave Clarke Five” for reasons I’m sure you can figure out.
Adam, “Young Liberal” seems a contradiction in terms. I actually thought the name was Geriatric P until closer examination. (A bit slow, I’ll have to have a think about the Dave Clark Five one …)
Reminds me (and sorry for the off-topic) … Malcolm Turnbull in his youth wrote an essay critical of the Liberal Party called “Old Men at Twenty-One”. LOL
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/master-turnbulls-liberal-spray/2008/09/22/1221935530521.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Clarke_(Australian_politician)
Cuppa,there are parts of my work that are boring, but i actually really love many parts of my work. I get a real kick out of people getting better and finding or developing their own resources to deal differently with life’s vicissitudes, of finding service gaps and ways of getting services to work together to meet those gaps. Innovation in human service delivery is a great buzz.
Generic Person just seems like a dumb robot, and compared to my step-daughter, who can at least be swayed by logical argument, just boring. Agree the AWA must be pretty ghastly.
Adam In Canberra. You made me laugh out loud.
My work here is done…
Harry, you’re in the helping profession by the sounds, immeasurably more worthwhile than GP’s caper, which is to come on here defending ideological nasties, cowards, liars, and all-round miserable misfits. Good on you.
Adam in Canberra. Well done. You deserve a stupid coffee cup or t-shirt or something.
Adam, that guy sounds anything but liberal.
Ta, Cuppa. GP’s lot is an unenviable one, but he (assuming the gender) is just so awful, even in terms of logic, it just is pointless trying to have a conversation.
NSW Liberal being run by right-wing hacks, NSW Labor being run by right-wing hacks.
Depressing.
I’m still trying to get Glen to fight G.P. They obviously represent different Young Liberal factions. You got the tossers and the windbags. I can’t figure out which is which.
Those are actually the formal names for the factions.
Another made up story by the OO by the look of things. then when it doesn’t happen they will accuse Kev of a backflip. Sooo predictable, sigh…
“A spokesman for Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, Anthony Albanese dismissed the reports of $600 million and plans to move funding forward, as assumption.
“We told the Australian that when the story was published. They are just speculating,” the spokesperson told http://www.governmentnews.com.au.
“I have absolutely no idea where that $600 million figure came from. We have not announced the quantum; we have not announced the final details of the program.
“I genuinely don’t know what they are talking about,” he said.
http://www.governmentnews.com.au/2008/10/28/article/HYPCDZMZCQ.html
From a link at the bottom of Adam’s Wiki article
http://www.smh.com.au/news/obituaries/ardent-nazi-took-liberal-to-extremes/2006/03/03/1141191845008.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2
I dunno about everyone else, but when even the party name is a lie (it should be the Anti-Liberal Party or ILliberal Party), if the falsity goes that fundamental, how or why would you trust a word they say?
I just got word through that G.P. edits his faction’s newsletter, it’s called The Daily Tosser.
Perhaps two sentences in th middle of my long #602 post did not get weighting because it was only one sentence each (on agree no guarantee and my suggested use of redeemable funds but not intended by me for redemptions)
“Managed Investments cann’t be obviously guaranted at all but not on idealology but as govt doesn’t know th viability of there portfolios (being pooled market linked investments)”
That statement was intended to demolish any argument in favour of a guarantee on prudential grounds alone , irrespective of accounting for people taking a bigger risk in Managed Funds for a higher return
Th queston that I thought leadd from my supposition of no guarantee is should any Govt proactive ‘action’ be taken (and if so what) or whether ot let them wither
My view is ‘action’ is desirable rather than no action because :Govts “encouraged” them , did so for a productive economic purpose self funding supa , gave no warning they were as risky as they ar in fact now ar irrespective of th cause , most were/ar well manged & most did hav acceptable liquidity levels for ‘normative’ business but could not be expected to hav liquidity for a foreign imported financia tsarmi , and its undesirable for th big 4 Banks to fully take this Sector as well
Now none of these reasons rely on th investors ‘deserving’ assistance but on th broader reasons abov I did NOT intend for eg redeemable pref shares to be used (after thorough APRA type audits of viability) for use as redemptions at all but rather to underpin/compatable with a Depoisitors fee also payable for some insurance cover & re-establash some public confidence due to ‘Govt involvement’
Despite some of th Managers fee rip offs , th sector does perform a valuable role both a as self funding supa conduit , cheaper sourse of funds for our Banks than dear US alternatives , different productive investment utilisation in our economy and a Sector th big 4 Banks don’t control So no govt guarantee , no govt risk , redeemable monies , giv some consumer confidence of govt interest to reverse redempton flood , provide liquidaty (not for redemptions) but for there core business of earning returns & maintain future revenues to Govt that Sector contributes
It is true chasing bigger returns by taking bigger risks normaly is a capitalism buyer beware …however this is a once in a Centary situation with other considerations in hand Th Govt has gone down my & others here rail track of a no guarantee (fine) but to me skipped a few rail Stations in between where I’m standing and jumped to th last rail Station ending up wanting these Mnaged Funds to be APRA approved almost Banks
The way I think about it is that Menzie’s chose “Liberal” deliberately to misrepresent what Labor stood for. My understanding is that Labor has NEVER been a socialist party, it has always assumed a version of capitalism would exist to ensure liberty and freedom. It just thinks that wealth creation should benefit workers as well as owners, and that social mobility is best achieved through equality of opportunity to education.
So, in that sense, Labor are social liberals. The Liberal party is full of neo-liberals, which we generally call conservatives.
SNIP: Pain-in-the-arse comment deleted – The Management.
SNIP: Self-indulgent discussion of other commenters deleted – The Management.
SNIP: Self-indulgent discussion of other commenters deleted – The Management.
Bushfire Bill. Me too, a great interpretation of one of the greats. Good opera is priceless.
GP
Are you one of the real estate agents harassing Prof Andrew Pittman about his pointing out which properties are prone to damage as a result of climate change?
Night lads and lassies.
Named after what goes on in the party room.
Labor has never never had a strong socialist (In the Marxist sense) presence. The furthest left they’ve been is with the reformist Fabians.
It depends on how you define “socialist” I suppose. Hardcore conservatives would argue that a progressive income tax is “socialist”. But who really cares what they think.
Were they ever socialist in the European “Democratic Socialist” sense of the term? Maybe the Left was. But generally the focus since even Whitlam has been on figuring out ways to make the wealth pie bigger, rather than just dividing the pie in different ways. That was certainly the aim of Hawke/Keating.
Even minimalist state Libertarians believe in some redistribution, because they believe in a police force and judiciary to enforce private property rights.
So anti-tax zealots would have to consider minimalist state Libertarians socialist.
Gotta love OUR ABC. Have done alot of driving in the past 2 days and listened to ABC radio. Well blow me down if Turnbull is not our PM. Virtually every political story was from Turnbull’s perspective, yesterday he was getting advice on how to help the funds, today he was saying the funds would have trouble with more regulation etc etc. It is unbelievable
The ALP constitution and previous policy platforms contained a lot of socialist rhetoric. “Nationalisations of industry” etc. but it was never really a goal and no one bothered trying to implement it, except that bloke in the 40’s.
The British Labour Party also had a controversial phrase in its constitution, stipulating that the party sought the “nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange”. Tony got rid of that soon enough.
The disconnect can be explained by the fact that it was the unions that wrote the constitution, but the parliamentary party who, exposed to the realities of politics, implement policy.
I think the ALP constitution says “socialisation”. But I think this term is ambiguous, it could mean “state ownership”, or it could simply mean “regulation so benefits are shared by society”.
It leaves a lot of wiggle room IMO.
I think the ALP has always been pretty practically minded. They were always interested in awards – pay and conditions – as well as public education – and at least initially tarrifs, rather than shutting down every business and replacing it with a state run organisation.
Here’s some pub trivia to throw back at people who say “The Greens aren’t going anywhere” “They’ve hit a ceiling” etc.
It look British Labour more than 20 years to crack the 10% threshold and 30 years to replace the Liberal Party as the main opposition to the Tories.
But isn’t that like saying the Greens would need the ALP to die before they could become the opposition?
There’s the reformist vs. revolutionary socialism.
ShowsOn
#688
“Ron #686 Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:54 pm | Permalink”
what does “core ‘left’ policys” actually mean?
Actualy my #686 was solely to do with ‘Managed Investments’ and proposed actions regarding them as an econamic point rather than a left policy I assum people from all politcal spectrums may both agree and both disgree with that Managed Investments post of suggested “Labor & Liberal Govts “encouragement” , there benefits & proposed cures
I probably should add that the electoral system only extended franchise to about 50% of the male population until the early 1900’s.
Ron, can you answer that question in a general sense?
OzPolitics summarises it as follows:
http://www.ozpolitics.info/guide/parties/alp/
SNIP: Pain-in-the-arse comment deleted – The Management.
Wow, a measley two hours watching Wall Street and Gordon Gekko and the Laborites have descended into pathetic ad hominem. William, I trust you’ll remove the filth.
ShowsOn, please take note of the comments which have been deleted.
No 671
I much prefer Lowe.
Here’s an amazing piece of trivia that goes against the usual conventional wisdom. Wouldn’t be surprised if a similar thing occurs in Australia.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=axt7Qr7cOyVo#
Interesting where Rudd and Turnbull lie. Especially given many attribute Rudd’s success to the capturing of the centre.
“Asked to position American and Australian political leaders on a scale from left to right, the respondents put Senator Obama to the left of the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, and the ALP, which were seen as being centre-left.
The Opposition Leader, Malcolm Turnbull, and Senator Obama’s vice-presidential running mate, Joe Biden, were placed at the centre, the Liberal Party at the centre-right and Senator McCain and President George Bush at the right.”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/obama-would-get-australians-vote/2008/10/29/1224956136462.html
“Ron, can you answer that question in a general sense?”
I assumed th predominantly “progressives” or Greens on this site as well as th Liberals on this site (GP , ESJ Glen etc) understand what I mean but don’t reely accept th philosopghy as core (but instead as important at best) as there core values ar diffferent
Labor core left policys ar summed up both by th words of Chifleys “lite on th hill” comments and th underlying implicit obligation & priority as core of which universal healthcare & freedom of association of employees as Unionists ar examples As a Labor person I’m defiant on them
James J was Sarah Palin left right out on the bridge to nowhere?
Looks like Sheridan has been given the job of cleaning up the mess left in the wake of the story in the Weekend Oz about Rudd & Bush’s phone call.
I wonder how many more of these beat-ups that they get found out on before they decide to revert to their proper role of actually reporting the news, not making it up or reporting nonsense from unreliable & suspect sources.
And here’s the rider that attempts to give the Oz an out.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24572800-5013460,00.html
This publication continues to slide deeper and deeper into the slime.
No 712
JJ, you’ve tampered with the space-time continuum on poll bludger with that comment. Turnbull more central than Rudd….it can’t be. Put your flame suit on!
No 715
They reported information from their sources like any other journalist. Heaven forbid, Adam spend two posts giving us a lesson in journalism…weren’t you listening?
If it was such an “incontrovertible fact”, therefore widely known, then it stands to reason that an agency such as the Oz would have been more than aware of the fact.
The only explanation can be that it was a cheap shot designed to damage Rudd but the ramifications of it were poorly thought out at best.
Things like this can cause diplomatic difficulties with potentially wide ranging ramifications. The White House certainly jumped on it quickly. The Oz must have assumed that it would remain a “domestic” issue and that the Bush Administration wouldn’t notice.
This “rag” is trying to make us all look like idiotic fools. Time to smarten yourselves up people.
Interesting point here about 400 000 investors in a US frozen fund.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/business/29fund.html?ref=business
SNIP: Abusive comment deleted – The Management.
Steve, you can be sure that it is a wide-ranging practice. They always look after their mates.
Socrates,it certainly was a problem in 2001 when the smarties got out of an AMP fund early and left the fund with no money to trade its way out of trouble. The fund was eventually closed down. The Liberals in government just shrugged their shoulders and did nothing as usual.
Well do nothing is not quite accurate. They diverted attention to the Tampa.
Mal Brough still thinks he’s the Minister for Indigenous Affairs.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/30/2405092.htm
No 722
Oh quiet steve. You’re always talking nonsense. The Liberals introduced the prudential regulation that has stopped our local financial system from collapsing, a fact you’re only too quick to forget when it suits you.
No 724
Brough is not saying anything uncontroversial. He’s absolutely right. Indeed, it is a shame that he lost his seat. I hope he runs again in 2010.
SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.
No 727
bob, the state of Aboriginal Affairs in WA is disgraceful. Hopefully Barnett does something about it.
If it wasn’t for the continued existence of the Liberal party The Australian would have no reason to be.
The Australian is an excellent paper, even will excel even higher when Dennis Shanahan is sacked.
I agree 100%. Nothing is better for lining my cat’s litter box.
Shame Dario.
Though to be honest, I prefer reading the Economist than any Australian newspaper.
GP
With ‘oz’ , I do enjoy George Megalogenos even when i disagree with him and don’t mind Dennis Atkins, and Paul Kelly I’m surprised you’re not keen on michelle Grattan as I rate her highley and over th yesrs she’s been very cutting about th Labor Party as well as th Liberral Party but usualy find her critisisms hav soundness , ditto Tony Jones & Laurie Oakes
I’m realize many rusted ons in both Labor & Liberal just love Philip Adams and Andrew Bolte but over parisan writers like them I blink as I turn th page on thems
Bolt is intolerable most of the time, much like Philip Adams. Bolt turns Insiders into high camp, especially when it’s the double wammy with David Marr.
734, GP:
I’ll see your Bolt and raise you an Akerman.
Scorpio @ 302, i’m just catching up on the posts, i went away for a few days to escape the media and get grounded again, i’ll be catching up reading all posts today, yes i’m pleased about the reward, the police have worked their hearts out on “the family”,yesterday Rann went on the Today show about it as well, a lot of people have forgotten the horrific details that came out in the 11 years of inquests and court cases, those boys were systemetically tortured before they were killed from massive blood loss, Von Einam was an accountant but he posed as a surgeon and carried a bag of surgeon’s instraments with him, he used those instraments to operate on and torture those poor boys, he cut out parts of their bodies while they were still alive and roughly stitched them up, some police believe as i do that even after V E was convicted there has been elements V E’s group still at work though obviously not as often, theres been a couple of lads disappeared since and maybe some street kids who would never be missed, my journo pal will be writing an article in this weeks Sunday Mail again, it’ll be very factual, he’s lived this case with us every step of the way ever since he was a cub reporter, both the police and i trust him not to go for sensationalisation.
as my son puts it– imagine your very worse nightmares–thats our reality–you couldnt even begin to imagine our nightmares, that goes also for the surviving parents of the boys.
Generic Person @ 725 -
The Liberals introduced the prudential regulation that has stopped our local financial system from collapsing, a fact you’re only too quick to forget when it suits you.
You might be surprised to learn that we didn’t have a ‘Wild West’ financial system before the Wallis inquiry, GP, but one that was just as highly regulated, possibly even more so.
The main difference now is that now most prudential regulation is the responsibility of one entity, APRA, rather than a number of separate agencies. While this may have introduced efficiencies, having a single agency may also have a negative effect. Regulators tend to end up favouring the regulated and there is an argument that spreading regulation over a number of agencies can reduce this effect because of competition between them.
725 “Oh quiet steve. You’re always talking nonsense. The Liberals introduced the prudential regulation that has stopped our local financial system from collapsing, a fact you’re only too quick to forget when it suits you.”
Funny thing is GP that those reforms were in place before the 9/11 sharemarket falls of 2001 and did the accounts get frozen or were guarantees offered by the Liberals while their mates were busy withdrawing all the cash out of the funds?
http://www.apra.gov.au/Speeches/00_05.cfm?RenderForPrint=1
For politics The Australian is the best. I can’t see what’s better these days.
Opinion piece by Greg Sheridan in today’s The Australian contains the following rather provocative lines:
“Coonan is a nice woman but she is the shadow minister who casts no shadow. In her time as foreign affairs spokeswoman, so far she has put out four press releases on foreign policy matters, plus two on Britt Lapthorne. Is there nothing in the great wide world that interests the Liberals?
Combined with the revelation that most Opposition front benchers don’t write and, it seems, barely read book chapters, allegedly about political ideas, that appear under their names, it suggests a Liberal Party bereft of any meaningful political culture.”
Pretty strong words from someone who often appears more inclined to the conservative side of politics.
On the EMS, the economic myths have just been exploded. Treasury modelling finds early action on climate change will save money, and create 700,000 jobs.
We can’t afford not to do it. So Turnbull and the Libs, and the denialists, (aka the “coal-eating surrender monkeys”
) – can be safely ignored as ‘economically irresponsible’.
http://www.theage.com.au/environment/act-fast-on-emissions-swan-20081029-5bgv.html
lefty e
I don’t think the reality of cliamte change is that simple – there will be some areas that will gain jobs from ETS, some that will lose them. But overall, yes there will be a net gain. Many of the areas of high emissions are actually very low employment industries – eg aluminium smelting.
I also think the new Infrastructure Australia package could help in both employment and emissions outcomes if it targetted things like public transport, alternative energy or reductions in irrigation water losses.
Dario 731
Xanthippe and I love our cats too much for them to have to look down on that. Its usually the leftover bits of the SMH sports or business sections for lining our litter trays.
SNIP: Whinge deleted – The Management.
Thats right Socrates – and thats the point: the economy will be transformed to some degree. Those who invest early will do better. Opposition is about entrenched interests who stand to lose, because their time is about up – not ‘economic good sense’ more broadly.
If we sat around listening to entrenched interests moan we’d still have steam trains, horse drawn plows, and hand typesetters .
Steve
Fair point but the 2001 AMP case still doesn’t justify guaranteeing these funds – that suggests a need for tighter regulation, which contrary to GP DIDN’T get introduced by Howard. There was a self-regulating industry code introduced, which sounds good till you check who enforces it…
Left e 745
True – we’d still be subsidising people to cut down valuable native hardwoods to turn into low value export pulp, farm hopelessly unviable parts of the Murray Darling basin, or graze sheep north of the Goyder line. Hmmm….
Socrates, I just find the argument from the Liberals wanting a guarantee on these market based funds breathtaking because when given the opportunity while in Government their response was to not do that.
Judith Barnes @ 736,
Judy the levels of depravity reached by some of your fellow citizens in your fair city are incomprehensible to the majority of the rest of us.
Myself and my family feel great sympathy for you and your family and hope that these depraved individuals can be extracted out of your community for good.
Adelaide is a great place and would be improved immensely if these creatures, (certainly not people) can be caught and put away for ever.
Steve
Precisely – thats why I posted yesterday a link to the Treasury paper on self-regulation under tip from earlier this decade. They always left it to the market, losers be damned. (Except when that company run by Howard’s brother collapsed.)
I could go on with a lot more embarrassing details on Liberal financial governance. Does anyone remember the inquiry into the collapse of HIH? It exposed that APRA was absolutely hopeless; many senior bureaucrats in it didn’t even understand the insurance industry.
ltep @ 740,
You can only defend the indefensible for just so long before you look totally and utterly foolish.
Most of the News Ltd commentators have long ago passed that level. It doesn’t help the people they are trying to prop up in the long run because they become dependent on that propping up and can never improve their performance, hence the appalling oppositions of recent years.
Heres some warning of a coming Aussie recession that I almost wish they didn’t even bother reporting. It comes from the same market experts who work for the firms that set up the conditions that led to the credit crisis. They didn’t see it coming either:
http://business.smh.com.au/business/yes-were-in-for-a-short-sharp-shock-20081029-5bgj.html
Interesting to see in 12 months if they are correct. I’d say its a 50/50 bet at most. The Oz economy has to fall quite a bit to actually go into recession, and there is a signficant stimulus coming as well.
Speaking of significant stimulus, here is a good article about the US interest rate cut overnight. It is amazing that the cuts haven’t influenced the mortgage rate yet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/business/economy/30fed.html?ref=economy
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/30/2405318.htm
Rudd flags more regulation in credit card market.
Now down to 1%.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/fed-cuts-rates-to-1-20081030-5bk8.html
And our dollar is slightly higher! Keep going baby. I’m heading over to the US in a month, really regret not exchanging earlier on.
The
The Deputy Governor of the Reserve Bank of Australia, Ric Battellino has released an interesting speech with graphs updating the household finances of Australians.
http://www.rba.gov.au/Speeches/2008/sp_dg_301008.pdf
Steve,
I would say that there was a fair chance that these comments were directed at the two financial geniuses, Turnbull and Costello.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24575315-20142,00.html
Steve
Terrific link! That speech is very good and has some very intersting facts. Note that the only real problem highlighted was in the non-regulated mortgage broker sector. With bad loans still only 0.5% in Australia, there is no reason to believe our market will crash. But of course, our genius investment advisors (who often know as much about econoics as Turnbull) usually follow US markets down like lemmings off a cliff.
Socrates, it was one of the better and more realistic speeches in Australia for a long time. If the Australian market gurus were to listen to the RBA rather than the Liberal Party version of what is happening economically in Australia, the whole place would be much better off.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/10/30/1224956188036.html
The Greens reject the filter proposal.
Here here, the greens! There goes the chance of passing it on cross benches.
Now, just got to watch the coalition doesn’t pass Conroy’s rubbish bill.
The soon to be axed Media Report on RN covered the Filter Follies see http://www.abc.net.au/rn/mediareport/stories/2008/2405376.htm
They interviewed Mark Pesce who I suppose will not be appearing The New Inventors ever again after plugging The Onion Router http://www.torproject.org/
Lefty E, The Nationals might still support the filter plan. If they do it has a chance of passing in some form.
But perhaps The Greens will force the Australian Luddite Party to have an opt out provision for those of us who don’t want to be nannied.
I can scarcely believe that the ALP have managed to appoint a more dense Communications Minister in Conroy than Richard Alston or Coonan the Barbarian.
You really think Conroy came up with the idea himself?
The Greens can’t force anything on their own. If Labor, The Nationals, Xenophon and Fielding can agree to a compulsory filter of some sort the Greens will be unable to do anything.
Itep
They might be able to force it as a pro quid pro for something else.
I thought the Greens didn’t trade bad policy for good policy.
Yeah right, the Nats. Forgot about them
Even an opt-out would leave the problem of slow speeds.
Why’s everyone jumping to the conclusion that the Nats will support it. Have they said anything publically? How often do they, as a block, cross the bench to vote with Labor against the Liberal party?
They aren’t going to support it. Now they need to get a formal group together including the Libs, the telco industry and EFA to convince both the Government and the public that it’s a silly idea.
No 772
The Liberals will almost certainly block the scheme if there’s no ability to 100% opt-out.
Real risk is not the Nats, but the Coalition getting wedged into it with some bollocks pro-family rhetoric from the ALP.
But my ‘on-balance’ guess is Conroy’s bill is now officially TOAST.
Huzzah etc.
Oz, Barnaby Joyce is a member of the ’somebody think of the children’ club ala Steve Fielding. Remember his indignation to service stations selling ‘unrestricted’ magazines?
No 775
Barnaby Joyce is an annoying mosquito that ought to be squashed.
It always was
Yeah and I know that Joyce has crossed the floor a few times, but the whole lot of them? I suppose he is leader in the Senate, but it wouldn’t look good for the coalition.
SNIP: Bookmark deeted – previous reader & poster!
deleted
The Nationals are mostly conservative, religious loonies. They stand for nothing except keeping our country locked in the past.
Although I suppose it would seem unreasonable to demand faster speed internet for ‘the bush’ and then slap on a filter that will slow it down.
Scorpio, William has made it quite clear that the discussion of moderation principles is not appropriate. If you wish to do so, email him at: pollbludger (at) bigpond.com
Here is a good outcome for democracy: the AFP will not get a closed court hearing at the Haneef inquiry:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/30/2405663.htm
On a political discussion website its easy to get lost in the politics and forget that sometimes organisations do bad things through sheer incompetence, and the subsequent desire to hide it. From my time in Canberra as a public servant, if there were two departments that meritted a cleanout of their internal ranks (not just the Ministers) it would be this lot (AFP) and Immigration.
From Skink via The Worst Of Perth. And you thought the OO was bad.
http://theworstofperth.com/2008/10/23/sorry-day-nurry-day/#comment-11908
Wow that’s ridiculous.
And another good outcome for the environment and the economy – Bells have admitted they have no finance for their silly pulp mill:
http://news.smh.com.au/business/bell-bay-funding-hit-by-downturn-gunns-20081030-5bsr.html
Said John Gay “”In this environment, the company will be maintaining the project in a position to proceed until funding arrangements are complete.”
Anyone care to take bets when construction will commence? Put me down for…never.
Ok, now we’re done Conroy in, let move on the coal-eating surrender monkeys!
http://bitemylatte.blogspot.com/
Ah I can’t be bothering attempting to teach a bunch of lawyers, hicks and their rabid followers about science.
Nothing surprises me about the West Australian.
Anyone want to know why Government collecting information on civilians is a bad idea?
http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24575839-15306,00.html
[THE Australian Taxation Office has lost a disk containing the tax details of thousands of people.
The ATO admitted that the CD was not encrypted.
That’s just a dumb statement. They have to collect data in order to make sure we are all paying our taxes correctly etc. What is a bad idea is not encrypting the data and losing it!!!
I’m talking about increased surveillance, giving government bureaucracies more power, removing judicial oversight etc. Things that we’re doing.
No 784
That is outrageous behaviour from Mr Armstrong.
GP 793 I’m glad you agree. For us small-L liberals who have been pushed by Howard from neutral to pro-labor, I often think people like Armstrong (and Shana-bolt-man) cost the right more votes than they gain. The sort of people those antics will appeal to will vote conservative anyway, but the swinging voters will be quite put off by that sort of arrogance.
No 794
Socrates, Mr Armstrong is not a MP or rep of the Liberal Party so it shouldn’t have a bearing on your vote, especially since you read more widely than one Newspaper.
I know GP, but I’m just saying how it affects me.
Far be it from me to downplay the veracity of what you might read in Crikey, but I should note that the Paul Armstrong anecdote appeared in the “tips and rumours” section.
99% of articles are based on “tips and rumours” at least he’s admitting it.
well whatever
Paul Armstrong is still a twat.
Actually more like a spoilt brat really.
I’m starting to picture Turnbull as a character in Viz, in my mind’s eye…
Turnbull says Rudd has insulted all Americans
Turnbull could have done the Treasury modelling on the carbon emissions problem while he was Minister for the Environment, too.
http://www.treasury.gov.au/lowpollutionfuture/summary/downloads/Australias_Low_Pollution_Future_Summary.pdf
Well, there you go, Bird of Paradox @ 800. I thought the story had died, but nooooo, the OO feeds Malcolm again, and the ABC dutifully reports Malcolm’s spin. No, it’s worse than spin, it’s lies.
And what’s with the sneering reporting of the Treasury modelling of the ETS, on the TV News?
HSO I think they are disappointed that the ETS isn’t going to be the big drama to set up that the journalists had been led to believe. Just another routine process by the look of it.
800 – Turnbull once again over-reaches
steve, you may well be right, but it came right on top of me foolishly having a look at the link BoP provided to Malcolm’s latest effort, so I was already cross. So cross, that even knowing it won’t make a blind bit of difference, I wrote a terse email to the ABC Online lot, pointing out that Malcolm’s views on a story that had been denied by both Rudd’s and Bush’s offices 4 days ago hardly constituted news.
Bird @800
which one
“spoilt bastard” “billy no mates” “general jubblies” etc etc
I agree, especially considering that about 75% of Americans couldn’t care less about GWB anymore.
No 806
HSO, think about it.
1. The PM is going to deny it because that would damage his international standings even more, not to mention his overgrown ego.
2. Of course Bush would deny it – accepting that it happened would make him look even more foolish than he already is.
Pretty simple. The ABC is well within its rights to report Turnbull’s comments.
GP and all Australians are well within their rights to laugh at Turnbull’s comments.
Grog, he just can’t help adopting the barrister approach. I’ve enough experience of them to recognise it pretty smartish. Also just has to get something into the news somewhere, anywhere, featuring him.
Considering how foolish he is, it probably happened.
So now the treasury modelling on an ETS has been released, it is now up to the Liberals to again attack. The Treasury modelling must be wrong. The Minerals Council told us so.
Has Malcolm cried wolf too many times? Will his inevitable attack on the accuracy of the modelling succeed?
Generic Person @ 809, think about it.
1. The statement made by Rudd’s office was to the effect that the phone conversation was about the G20. It was the reason for Rudd calling Bush.
2. Bush may well be a fool, however, why would he return a phone call to Rudd about widening the proposed meeting to the G20, if he didn’t know what the G20 is?
This was all covered 4 days ago.
Pretty simple. Malcolm’s spin on it 4 days later is not news.
800
How out of touch is Talcum? 90% of Australians would be cheering Rudd if he said Bush was a goose. but what does the merchant go and do? he crawls up Bush’s u know what, that is close to treason imho. He’s got no judgement at all.
maybe he thinks Bush needs a new sheriff ?
Gusface 807: not quite sure which strip – I remember a couple of toff characters that’d be perfect for Turnbull, but I can’t think of their names at the moment. It’s that kind of ridiculous over-the-top hyperbole that makes me think of the mag, though. The (fake) letters to the ed are great too. Pity I don’t have any here, if I did I’d transcribe one.
Also: I remember comparing Troy Buswell to ‘Baxter Basics’ or ‘Postman Plod’ a few months ago. When there was a new story about him every other week… slightly before he got elected. There’s one strip where Plod temporarily gets the sack for falsely claiming a bad back, and his boss shows him photos of him first lifting a sack of flour, then a couple of other progressively more ridiculous things, finally lifting up a truck full of anvils to get a $5 note from under the wheel. I thought of that one when I heard of the chair-sniffing episode… that’s when it all got a bit cartoonish and over the top.
Why didn’t Greg Sheriden get truly stuck into Rudd for leaking the conversation?
GS ain’t a huge Rudd fan – and certainly is a big GWB fan, so he would have no quams in sinking the boot in.
His line:
Is a bit odd – it hardly makes The Oz’s reporting look fantastic. The only line form the paper that he really supports as being beyond reproach is:
[The story as reported said Rudd refused to comment on the conversation. ] because
And GS even puts it in context:
No doubt Turnbull read that, and so in he goes, boots first, studs up.
Fool. JWH calling Obama a godsend for terrorists is an insult to all Americans (has Turnbull said anyhtig about that? Or is it still LNP policy?
This is nothing (and remember GWB is a week from history – lame duckness aside).
woops forgot the link:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24572800-7583,00.html
Greg Sheriden would only be concerned about Australia’s reputation overseas being damaged. Turnbull seems to not worry about such sensitivities.
Well, I’ve got to say I hope that with the election of Barack Obama, if some fool/s don’t kill him, that the creepy type of Rove politics, might be sidelined somewhat in the U.S., and may therefore be more marginalised here, at least in terms of their influence. It’s been a nightmare.
It’s interesting, a genuine conservative I actually respect. It’s these neo-con B*^%$#@ds that get up my nose.
SBS news showed Murdoch and Rudd having a natter together at the launch of the aboriginal jobs plan. I wonder if the OO and their lies came up in the conversation?
It makes you feel good when people get together and things like this happen. Positive news instead of all the nastiness and lies we have been bombarded with lately
http://news.theage.com.au/national/new-plan-aims-for-50000-indigenous-jobs-20081030-5buy.html
nice words from Noel pearson also
“Mr Pearson said that for every 10 jobs a hundred flowers would bloom in the lives of indigenous children.
“We’re going to look back on this … as that moment in the history of the country when government and society made a commitment to people that if you take up the cudgels of responsibility we will guarantee you a job, we will set forth before you a prospect of climbing up in the world, a home, a future for your children, a fair stake in this, your own land,” he said.
“The (fake) letters to the ed are great too. Pity I don’t have any here, if I did I’d transcribe one.”
Bird I have most of the Viz’s plus the profanisaurus(es)
my favs are “top tips” “mrs brady old lady” “major misunderstanding” and of course “black bag, the faithful border bin liner”
steve, Turnbull is clearly out of his depth when it comes to international relations and diplomacy. Rudd is several post codes ahead of him. Might be why his stupid out of date spiel about the Rudd/Bush phone conversation makes him sound like such a dill. Actually, come to think about it, maybe the ABC should report Malcolm’s weighed and considered thoughts on international relations and the diplomacy required to achieve results for Australia. Wonder whether Kerry would be interested. Maybe they could get him on Insiders to expound, as he doubtless would.
damn communists at it again!
HSO there was a report earlier on this thread that the Shadow Minister for Foreign affairs has only written a few letters in the whole time she’s been there. Following on from the Googler Robb debacle, it seems that foreign affairs is a weak area for the Liberals as present where they have a lot of catch up work to do.
Foreign Affairs isn’t really an area where elections are won and lost so I don’t think they’ll be putting that much effort into it.
Ltep it still all adds up to a team that just struggles to get their act together.
It is instructive that the only way The Australian and Turnbull and ABC can attack Rudd is to use lies.
No 825
Part of the problem is that the portfolio was dominated by Downer for 12 years, which means no other Coalition member has had any real experience with it. That said, Stephen Smith had virtually zero foreign affairs experience either – I’m pretty sure he was education spokesman whilst in opposition.
Ahh yeah, Top Tips – some of those tips were brilliant. And Biffa Bacon, Sid The Sexist, Roger Mellie, and Terry F—witt just for the surreal weirdness. Modern Parents and the Critics, both by John Fardell… and the same guy that drew Black Bag (I think) did a great send-up of the Famous Five, called Jack Black. A neo-nazi style crime-solving boy from Twittering-on-the-marsh or some such named place.
Maybe Rudd could have asked Murdoch why the sudden increase in incompetence at his Australian newspapers.
No 831
The Australian is fine. You guys really take too much interest in the opinion columns.
GP, certainly more interest than Coonan has taken in delegations, visits and conferences in 2008.
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=(Id:handbook/allmps/2m6);rec=0;
One of the things that keeps me going back to the Australian is its superior coverage of World news, which is decidedly pathetic in the Fairfax Papers. I supplement that with the Economist which I think is one of the best mags in the world.
Readers Digest has more in-depth and balanced analysis than The Economist.
One thing that keeps me going back to the List of members on the Opposition side of the Federal Parliament is I just can’t believe how little they do with the opportunities they have been given.
GP is really a whisper marketer for the Economist.
There are the occasional insightful articles in the Australian mixed up with tedious opinion pieces. It’s slightly better than the rubbish printed in tabloids paired with the rubbish opinion pieces in tabloids.
Do people still buy dead tree forms of media?
I just look at webpages, and listen to NewsRadio a lot.
No 838
I don’t buy newspapers, with the exception of the Weekend Financial Review. Every other day I read the news online.
I’m usually on 873/702/630 whilst in the car, mostly 630 RN.
No 835
Readers Digest has a lot of extraneous crap that I don’t like. I prefer the focus of the Economist. I don’t mind Time in occasional doses.
steve back @ 825. I was thinking I might offer the 3 legged cat as Shaow Minister for just about anything, mostly Foreign affairs. He can say Shaow, and Wah, Wah. Could also double for TV interviewers, as long as he could be convinced not to chase the lizard thingy on his lapel. He might also bridle a bit about the lapel. Maybe a bad idea.
You’re so unremittingly boring HSO.
I thought that post was f’ing hilarious!
How about “Shadow Minister without Portfolio”.
Harry how about your 3 legged cat get a job in shadow ministry of silly walks?
Generic Person @ 842. Glad to hear it. BTW, did you watch the ABC program this evening o Churchill and Menzies?
Perhaps the three legged cat might be able to sort out the failure of the Ted spread to come down to normal levels that is bothering the US Federal Reserve.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/10/08/business/economy/20081008-credit-chart-graphic.html
Nah, the cat’s smarter than Eddixinder, and Vera, he walks a bit funny, but you should see him when he’s chasing something, even if imaginary. Could he be Opposition Leader, then?
I find that the herein aforementioned “Viz” is the only paper worth taking these days. Unfortunately one has to also purchase the “Guardian Weekly” to put it inside in order to be able to read it on the train.
The three legged cat is very sensibly going to slope off to sleep in preparation for his appearance as Opposition Leader. Well, they slope off to sleep any way.
steve, I’ll take some time this weekend to look at the links you’ve provided, and get back to you if I’ve anything useful to say. Many thanks.
He might not be off to sleep at all Harry he may be sneaking out to sit in a gutter at 3am with a junkie, just to get in a bit of practice for the job?
Japan has gone for a big splash of cash to try to head off the Global Credit Crisis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/business/31yen.html?ref=business
HSO,
There are always the one eyed cats. You don’t know if they are coming in or going out. Apparently, there are a lot of Liberals in the breeding.
Silly South Australian Attorney General has again blocked attempts to introduce R18+ ratings for games. This guy is effectively of the same looney ilk of Senator Fielding & Xenophon.
http://blogs.smh.com.au/screenplay/archives//020433.html
Turnbull’s latest attack on Rudd over a supposed leak from Rudd’s office on a phone conversation he had with the President is not only knowingly dishonest (that it came to the murdoch boys via the other side in the USA is revealed already) it is also pretty stupid.
Hardly anyone will care and it will look like Turnbull is just puffing up again like a noisy toad with little to say except to again be complaining about something and personally attacking Rudd.
Turnbull should remember their relative trust levels in a previous survey where Turnbull’s was fairly low and Rudd’s good. Any accusations made by Turnbull on Rudd may just as easily cause people to reflect on Turnbull’s own character.
Turnbull’s continual attacks on Rudd and what he is doing at this point in time may be seen as weak spoiling tactics, when people would prefer he just shut up and let the government get on with its job. More of this and Turnbull may become annoying background noise.
SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.
Looks like we might be beginning to see the first bit of action on the frozen funds front.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24579595-5003402,00.html
European and US sharmarkets are going strongly today despite the bad news of the US economy shrinking being announced a short while ago. There seems to be a little bit of confidence sneaking back at long last.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/economy-shrinks-as-consumers-cut-back/
Ah, not so fast Steve.
Everyone the day before yesterday was harping on about how it was the “second biggest points gain in history”. I pointed this out earlier, but some of the biggest gains in history actually occurred at the beginning of the Great Depression.
No, they have survived the day in fine form oz. If it had been any time in the past three weeks, news like that would have driven the Dow down massively. I wasn’t around in the Great Depression, but it is clear this time that only a steady lift in confidence is the only way out.
Sorry the link is here.
http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/markets/overview/overview.asp
Oh yes the Economist is a very focused journal of international repute. Hence they can see that McCain and Palin are frauds, and have endorsed Obama:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12511171
An interesting story on the infrastructure funding plan here in The Age
http://www.theage.com.au/national/cabinet-rift-hits-nations-building-program-20081030-5eno.html
I hope Tanner sticks to his guns. The last thing we need is for all the new money to be wasted on a bucket of pork. See how little good the Darwin – Alice Sprigns railway has done. The money needs to go on the basics that have been neglected for years;
- upgraded passenger rail capacity in capital cities
- inter-state freight rail between capitals (Adelaide – Brisbane – Melbourne -Sydney)
- urban roads to ports
- water infrastructure and national electricity grid to make alternatives more viable
Also pleased to see that the commitment to the ETS was announced yesterday:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/31/2406259.htm
I suppose I’m biased on this oen because it will mean more work in my area, but overall it will create more jobs, which may be useful in the next two years. However it underlines the needd for Tanner to stick to his guns on the infrastructure funds I referred to in 862 above. Places like Latrobe valley will suffer from an ETS because it will expose how bad their older stations are. But the solution is not building them a new rail line to nowhere. They need new industries, or migration out of the area.
Given GPs love for The Economist which cannot quite be contained I found this story brought a smile to my face:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/31/2406562.htm?section=justin
It probably says alot about me that the first thing I thought about on seeing the story was this website.
Morgan Farce to Farce..er face to face
2PP
ALP 56.5
LNP 43.5
I tuned into Bussiness Channel earlier to check out the All Ords and $Aust and at the time they had Shaun Callow from Westpac speaking about confidence and said how he wished a certain paper wouldn’t trawl through all the economic data of the day to find the most negative bit (no matter how irrelevent) and then make it their front page news story.
Hmm i wonder what paper that would be???
Sharemarket confidence in Australia won’t be repaired for a while yet.
Atm because Kevin Rudd’s unlimited gaurantee on bank deposit, people are taking their money from the investment funds (who invest the money in shares) and putting them into bank deposits.
Some funds had frozen the withdrawal, because there are too many people who still want to withdraw their money. These people are unable to withdraw until the market settled, however everyone knows the market will fall again once these people sell their shares, so people are still selling off their investments, that is why our market had underperform US/Japan/UK/HK by about 10% in just the last week.
This is not happening in the US and UK, because they had limits on their bank gaurantee, why Rudd and Swann did not follow their led, despite them acting later than all the other government and created this mess is anyone’s guess.
Investment confidencein Australia had been destroyed by the Rudd government’s policy, it will take a while for it to be mended
What dribble dovif. Half the funds froze before the guarantee.
Not to mention the polls show Rudd made the wrong decision.
Oh wait, they show he didn’t!
“Sharemarket confidence in Australia won’t be repaired for a while yet.”
Actually the electorates confidence in the fibs wont be repaired for a while yet either dovif!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/31/2406964.htm?section=justin
“The assistant general secretary of the New South Wales Labor Party, Luke Foley, has told the court he saw Mr Egan and another man putting the leaflets in the letterboxes.
He says he approached Mr Egan and told him, “We know what you’re up to – handing out shit sheets on the ALP”.”
New thread.