Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth

Newspoll: 54-46

The Australian reports that this fortnight’s Newspoll has Labor’s lead at 54-46, down from 55-45 last time. However, Kevin Rudd’s preferred prime minister rating is up five points to 59 per cent, while Malcolm Turnbull is down one point to 25 per cent. Essential Research has Labor’s lead up from 59-41 to 61-39 in its weekly survey, which is Labor’s second successive two point increase. Also included are questions on leadership approval and attitudes to the financial crisis.

UPDATE: Graphic here. An interesting set of figures: despite going backwards on two-party, Labor’s primary vote is up three points to 44 per cent, the Greens having returned to earth from 13 per cent to 9 per cent. Kevin Rudd’s personal ratings are well up: satisfaction up nine to 65 per cent and dissatisfaction down six to 26 per cent, his best figures since May and June respectively. He’s also taken a commanding lead over Turnbull as best leader to handle the economy, up nine since September 19-21 to 50 per cent with Turnbull down eight to 35 per cent. Also included are questions on the carbon pollution reduction scheme, which over half now believe should be at least delayed.

871 Comments

  1. 1
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    From previous thread – Turnbull has held his own???

    Well good for him. Pity he ain’t playing solitaire.

  2. 2
    Pol Pot Plant
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    GP @ 1806 (on previous thread)
    “Turnbull has held his own.”

    that is the problem … maybe he should get his hand off it for a while :P

  3. 3
    Oz
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Congrats.

  4. 4
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    First

    C’mon ShowsOn – you’re better than that!

  5. 5
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Forgive my naiveity, but there’s an awful gap between an increase to 61/39 and a drop to 54/46.

    Something is screwed up somewhere.

  6. 6
    Diogenes
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Keelty has led to Australians lacking confidence in it’s Federal Police and should have resigned a long time ago to restore the public trust. Rudd should have forced him out by now.

  7. 7
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    No 2

    Maybe you should change your offensive name! Obviously you tacitly support mass extermination of innocents….

  8. 8
    redwombat
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    If I owned the newsagency in Point Piper I wouldn’t be delivering The Australian to a certain resident tomorrow

  9. 9
    Gusface
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Soc
    As I had predicied on the previous thread the wingnuts are on the rise
    your quote about hawke may be prescient in more ways than one.

    GP
    yes I agree talcum has held his own,but his tactics are dubious.
    Is this what the fibs are to become?

  10. 10
    Oz
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Rofl Bushfire Bill, thanks for pointing that out.

    It’s possible that when you toss in the margins of error they meet somewhere in the middle.

  11. 11
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    No 5

    Essential Research is way out of whack and almost certainly has a pro-ALP skew.

  12. 12
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    ShowsOn, see Article V of Comment Moderation Guidelines.

  13. 13
    bob1234
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Liberals in the political wilderness for a decade.

  14. 14
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    If I owned the newsagency in Point Piper...

    Point Piper has no newsagencies, nor any shops at all. Totally “residential”.

  15. 15
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    So the LNP % has increased, while Malcolm’s PPM has gone down… good thing Turnbull is such a team man, no doubt he’ll be extatic ;-)

  16. 16
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    First

    C’mon ShowsOn - you’re better than that!

    Thank you for recording it forever!

    Maybe you should change your offensive name! Obviously you tacitly support mass extermination of innocents….

    Especially Young Liberals wearing glasses.

  17. 17
    Pol Pot Plant
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    GP @ 7
    “Maybe you should change your offensive name! Obviously you tacitly support mass extermination of innocents….”

    Maybe you should change your offensive gravatar/logo! Obviously you tacitly support mass extermination of innocents….

  18. 18
    redwombat
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    I don’t get up there often from Nar Nar Goon :-)

  19. 19
    bob1234
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    And the Preferred PM rating shows that even Turnbull cannot mass the equivelent support from even the Liberal primary vote, like Brenda Nelson.

    Quite pathetic and amusing at the same time really.

  20. 20
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    No 9

    Gusface, his tactics are not dubious. Though censoring the Internet certainly is. Conjob, anyone?

  21. 21
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Thank you for recording it forever!

    William feel free to delete my reference to it!!

  22. 22
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    So the LNP % has increased, while Malcolm’s PPM has gone down… good thing Turnbull is such a team man, no doubt he’ll be extatic ;-)

    He’s hurting the brand!

  23. 23
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:48 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Nothing comment deleted – The Management.

  24. 24
    bob1234
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    @15 we don’t know that yet, all we know is the 2pp which is calculated on the pref divisions of the last election.

    Primary vote for either could have gone up or down on only a 1% 2pp move.

  25. 25
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    William feel free to delete my reference to it!!

    No fair! What standing order does your post transgress!?

  26. 26
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    No 22

    I’d say Conroy is doing much more significant damage to the ALP brand.

  27. 27
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Shame on you ShowsOn.

    For what!? Why should it bother me if you find things offensive? I thought you were a liberal who realises that individuals pursuing their own good lives are bound to come in conflict with each other.

  28. 28
    Gusface
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    oneof the things that most forget is that prior to rudd,people voted howard
    partly the man,partly the policies.

    Rightly or wrongly some of the plebs are going to be swayed back to what they feel safe with.

    I expect the polls to stabilise in the 53-56 range from now on

  29. 29
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    25 – From the Guidelines Article V:

    I’m less bothered if things get silly after comment 700 or so.

    I think we’ve got there already!! (obviously a hang over from the over 1800!! on the last thread) :D

  30. 30
    Oz
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    The article points out that The Green vote has “stabalised”. Presumably that means it’s dropped down from the high of 13 back to ~9. Which could explain the 2PP drop and possibly even a rise in the Labor primary.

  31. 31
    bob1234
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    @26

    That’s right, criticise a government minister rather than the Liberal leader.

    The Liberal leader gets polled. The government minister doesn’t. Swallow that huge lump in your throat, realise the Libs are consigned to the political wilderness for a decade, and move on. There’s many hobbies out there!

  32. 32
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Bestial 2000 post threads are undesirable.

  33. 33
    imacca
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Have to admit that i am a litle surprised that Turnbulls PPM number didnt drop further. After his behavior over the last week or so he deserved to be crushed like the bug that he is.

    So this means that the majoritory of Rudds increase in support must have come from previously “dont know”??

    If Rudd is picking them up then thats a real problem for the Libs. If they ever want to be back in power they need more than their rusted ons.

    Has anyone got an idea of the “bias” of Essential Reseach’s polls. I mean in the context of how some polls just seem to generally favor one side of politics or another.

  34. 34
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    I’d say Conroy is doing much more significant damage to the ALP brand.

    Not yet – wait till it gets close to legislation. It’s still at testing stage etc. Lot of water yet to go under the bridge. If it really does cause an 86% slow down – fuhgheddaboudit.

    It’ll be a “we tried, but unfortunately the technology is not there yet”

  35. 35
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    No 31

    Why should I criticise the Liberal leader when is performance has been exemplary?

    The same cannot be said for his deputy, however.

  36. 36
    bob1234
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    @35

    So exemplary, he can’t even get the same level of Preferred PM support as the Lib primary vote, like Brenda Nelson?

    Quite the lulz.

  37. 37
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    *his not is in No 35.

  38. 38
    Gusface
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    William
    any comment on the disparity between newspoll and essential research?

  39. 39
    Cuppa
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    William in the thread header noted:

    However, Kevin Rudd’s preferred prime minister rating is up five points

    So all those bitter Young Liberals posting to News Ltd and ABC blogs, still feeling the pain of their election loss almost 12 months on, all their unimaginative and trite repetitions of the “KRudd” epithet, have failed to sway anybody.

    Johnny really dumped a bundle onto them with WorkChoices eh!

  40. 40
    Glinn Mgraw
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Dunno about exemplary, GP.

    Decent, but not superb.

  41. 41
    Socrates
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Gusface

    Yes I just saw your wingnut reference on the previous thread and have to agree.

    I would be more optimistic for Labor in the long term than this result might show. Turnbull has effectively burnt his bridges on any bipartisan approach to the economic crisis in the past week. So if the guarantees and stimulus package work then Rudd and Swan will eb riding high and he will be left in the cold. If they aren’t then Labor can modify them, because they always said they would respond to circumstances. If there is in the end still a world wide recession including here then they can legitimately point to Turnbull as one of the causes of the panic plus there is the legitimate worry that in a tightening economic, supporting the party that still dreams of workchoices is not a good move for the average “battler”. That and we’ll just have to go back to some good old fashioned Keynsian pump-priming, the right wingers be damned.

  42. 42
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    No 36

    bob1234, these ratings are pretty inconsequential when we’re two years away from an election.

  43. 43
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    25 - From the Guidelines Article V:

    I try not to read rules, they break my delicate concentration.

    The same cannot be said for his deputy, however.

    You’re an honest man G.P. She is a joke who should be replaced with that 15 year old Greg Hunt.

  44. 44
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull’s figures, like the man, are careening from the sublime to the ridiculous.

    Speaking of the misuse of words: the verb is to careen, not career.

    Once again The Australian has got it wrong. How do their subbies keep their jobs?

    Five Australians were among those killed when the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 slammed onto the runway at Yogyakarta airport, careered into a rice paddy field and exploded in flames on March 7, 2007.

    Are we in agreeance on that?

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24560863-12377,00.html

  45. 45
    Oz
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Ironic that someone who cares naught for polls is such a prolific poster on a website called “The Poll Bludger”.

  46. 46
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    No 41

    Socrates, the Government has been avoiding Turnbull’s calls for bipartisanship ever since he ascended to the leadership. So it’s not just Turnbull burning bridges.

  47. 47
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    No 43

    No, I think Tony Abbott should be deputy leader. I actually had quite a good laugh with him on Saturday at a Liberal function.

  48. 48
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Socrates, the Government has been avoiding Turnbull’s calls for bipartisanship ever since he ascended to the leadership. So it’s not just Turnbull burning bridges.

    Oh dear. Turnbull’s call was basically a demand that he be made P.M. in a war cabinet.

  49. 49
    Socrates
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:01 pm | Permalink

    Watching Lateline now and Turnbull is still playing the fear campaign. Rudd and Swan should keep pointing out that he is the fear merchant. First because its true, and second because it will paint him into a corner.

    Swan is holding firm on not caving into the property funds on a guarantee. Good. It is the right decision and it makes him look more consistent and firm. Be compassionate yes (assist those who can’t get their funds) but don’t be stupid. These demands are purely self serving.

  50. 50
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    No 48

    ShowsOn, that’s complete rubbish and you know it. :)

  51. 51
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    No 44

    Agreeance is a word, whether you like it or not BB.

  52. 52
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    No 48

    ShowsOn, that’s complete rubbish and you know it. :)

    Dear G.P.

    I didn’t write post 48.

    From,

    ShowsOn

  53. 53
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    No 49

    Socrates, telling people to go to Centrelink is not exactly compassionate in a situation where their life savings are frozen. Swan is bumbling fool, a claim reassuringly supported by Alan Kohler.

  54. 54
    Gusface
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Soc
    my fear is that rudd will ‘carry the can” for this

    A lot of subliminal damage is being done

    and I know its not rudds fault before anyone starts!

  55. 55
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    No 52

    On my end it says you did write No 48.

  56. 56
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Socrates, telling people to go to Centrelink is not exactly compassionate in a situation where their life savings are frozen.

    It sounds like a reasonable short term solution to me.

  57. 57
    redwombat
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    #52
    He didn’t tell them to go to “Cash Converters”

  58. 58
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    No 54

    Yes, it is entirely Rudd’s fault. Policy on the run is inappropriate for a government with access to thousands of advisers.

  59. 59
    Socrates
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    GP I trust you meant No. 47 as I wasn’t particularly disagreeing with you. :)

    Agree there are multiple causes of the fraying of bipartisanship, but as they say in the school playground, he started it. I don’t say Turnbull has performed badly as leader of the opposition, but I do think he has pushed teh fear campaign much to hard, and is taking a risk in that. I agree with you on Bishop, as much as I’d say teh same for Labor with Conroy. Both are a liaibility.

  60. 60
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    No 52

    On my end it says you did write No 48.

    52 is one of your own posts! You’re being filtered! Call the cops!

  61. 61
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    No 56

    Yeah, a short term method of putting the budget into deficit! Ah, we’re back to the bad old days of big spending, deficit inducing Labor governments.

  62. 62
    imacca
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    BB@44

    I thought carreening was something you do to you ships hull?

    ie: beaching it, hauling it onto its side and getting the crew to scrub, chip and break off the smelly and undesirable growths that have attached themselves to your timbers and are in some cases chewing the essential structure of that which supports you to bits.

    Hmm, maybe carreening is what the Fibs SHOULD be up to at the moment.

  63. 63
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    William what the hell is going on? Why is there a discrepancy on what various people can see here?

  64. 64
    Gusface
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    GP
    Existential questions are not allowed :)

  65. 65
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Yes, it is entirely Rudd’s fault. Policy on the run is inappropriate for a government with access to thousands of advisers.

    But Howard did it all the time! The Border Protection Bill 2001 is the most horrendous example of policy on the run in the history of the Commonwealth:
    http://0-www.austlii.edu.au.prospero.murdoch.edu.au/au/legis/cth/bill/bpb2001212/

    It even contained such hilarious anti-democratic provisions such as Section 10:

    This Act has effect in spite of any other law.

    Stick that up your due process and smoke it.

  66. 66
    redwombat
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Hey GP watch Lateline Business now

  67. 67
    Socrates
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Gusface

    In the short term you may be right, but in the long term I’m not so sure. The longer Rudd and Swan look calm and responsive the better they look as a leadership team. If the rest of the world are in recession next year and we are not, they will still be looking pretty good IMO. The trick now is to manage expectations, and reassure peopel that they will “see it through”. This needs to be a logn term strategy. There are actually some great long term opportunities in the “nation building” category coming out of this. We still haven’t seen what is coming out of the brought forward infrastructure Austalia money yet. Plus the pensioner handouts don’t happen till November/December. There is still some upside ahead of them IMO.

  68. 68
    Winston
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    GP @ 1062

    What do you mean?

  69. 69
    bob1234
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    @42/GP

    You’re completely ignoring the point and you know it. Turnbull’s Preferred PM cannot even match the Liberal primary vote (or even coalition primary vote). 2 years out from an election or not, it shows he cannot even match the level of support his party has.

  70. 70
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    No 65

    I can only reiterate the comments from the greatest Prime Minister of all time, John Howard:

    “We will decide who comes into this country and the circumstances in which they come”

  71. 71
    steve
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    “Why is there a discrepancy on what various people can see here?”

    Rose coloured glasses when viewing poll data possibly.

  72. 72
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    No 66

    I’ll watch it online later.

  73. 73
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Winston @ 2053

    His boring posts are being deleted.

    You’re completely ignoring the point and you know it. Turnbull’s Preferred PM cannot even match the Liberal primary vote (or even coalition primary vote).

    He’s hurting the brand.

    So is Julie Bishop.

  74. 74
    redwombat
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    GP = Mr Magoo :-)

  75. 75
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    I can only reiterate the comments from the greatest Prime Minister of all time, John Howard:

    I thought Liberals cared about due process? I can’t believe you are defending:

    This Act has effect in spite of any other law.

  76. 76
    Albert Ross
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Julie Bishop = Little Miss Echo

  77. 77
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    Dear me, all this angst about minor fluctuations in polls two years out from the next elections. “Polling is not an exact science” (quote, me, 2007 passim). William, could you engrave that in letters of fire at the top of each page?

    All that matters is that Labor is still polling well above the vote it got a year ago. A year into his term, Rudd and Labor are more popular then they were when they were elected, GFC notwithstanding. On that cheery note, I am going to bed and so should all of you lot.

  78. 78
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    No 59

    I endorse Abbott for deputy Leader.

  79. 79
    Gusface
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Soc
    more tahn most I fervently hope that rudd is able to exceed expectations.

    just my hobby is reading the tea leaves and at teh moment rudds message is being tarnished by turnbulls anti-economy rhetoric.

    joe public doesnt discern the nuances and i thinka % have drifted -more of fear than logic

    long term I feel the fibs are still gone,just the “fat” on labors lead will be less

  80. 80
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    No 74

    redwombat = dullard

  81. 81
    Cuppa
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    One would almost think GP’s AWA stipulates that he is to be paid according to the number of posts he makes to this blog. Hey, GP, does your “agreement” allow you toilet breaks? Even 10 minutes would be a relief for the rest of us.

  82. 82
    Spam Box
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    GP @ 62

    GP – I see #52 as one of your comments as well (if that helps, probably not)

    Mr B?

  83. 83
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    No 75

    It’s actually good drafting because it prevents complex legalistic arguments as to whether the Act contradicts other Acts.

  84. 84
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    I endorse Abbott for deputy Leader.

    Creationists are excluded from that the prestigious Deputy Leader of the Opposition office.

    But I’ll email him your endorsement as a gag.

  85. 85
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Cuppa it’s always a pleasure when I cause you discomfort. :)

  86. 86
    Spam Box
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    83

    ROFL

  87. 87
    Cuppa
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    Poor GP, not even a lousy toilet break in his SerfChoices “agreement”.

  88. 88
    bob1234
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    @82

    The only thing worse than Abbott as deputy leader is Abbott as leader. He’s been a joke for a long time, furthered at last year’s election campaign, and even more so with his extensive commentary on Nelson/Costello/Turnbull. He’d do well to keep his mouth shut permanently, or retire alltogether.

  89. 89
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    No 74

    redwombat = dullard

    74 was my post!

    It’s actually good drafting because it prevents complex legalistic arguments as to whether the Act contradicts other Acts.

    WHAT! The Criminal Code is an act of parliament. If that bill passed and became an act, even criminal actions by the federal police couldn’t of been reviewed by a court!

    COME ON, border protection is one thing, but that act was just extremist nonsense than challenged all the rights and liberties that our whole country is based on.

    I thought you believed in LIMITED government, not giving government agents unfettered power to do absolutely anything they liked while aboard a SIEV, without any chance for judicial review.

    Laws are there to protect the weak as well sometimes G.P.

  90. 90
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Abbott is honest about what he thinks about members of his party and his personal beliefs.

    Kevin Rudd is not. He pretends to believe in government for all Australians, but actually believes in censorship for all Australians.

  91. 91
    redwombat
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    #87
    Told ya …..Mr Magoo

  92. 92
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    ShowsOn, I have no idea what is going on with the post numbering….William can you shed some light please?

    —-

    That aside, judicial review is guaranteed under our constitution ShowsOn.

  93. 93
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    That aside, judicial review is guaranteed under our constitution ShowsOn.

    But that bill would’ve given unfettered power to government agents to do whatever they liked while operating within the authority of that act.

    That is unlimited government nonsense that I thought a true liberal would be shocked about.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely G.P.

  94. 94
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    The only thing worse than Abbott as deputy leader is Abbott as leader. He’s been a joke for a long time, furthered at last year’s election campaign, and even more so with his extensive commentary on Nelson/Costello/Turnbull. He’d do well to keep his mouth shut permanently, or retire alltogether.

    I don’t mind Abbott anymore, because he isn’t actually a very effective politician.

    If he left parliament then his safe seat may be handed over to a Liberal with more talent. So it is kind of amusing having him hang around.

  95. 95
    Cuppa
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Conroy wants to shield our children from pornography. The Liberals want our children to be made serfs.

  96. 96
    Spam Box
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    GP – who do you see as Author of #12?

  97. 97
    Spam Box
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    93 – Cuppa… I hope your joking

  98. 98
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Spam Box, I see William Bowe as author of #12.

  99. 99
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.

  100. 100
    Cuppa
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  101. 101
    Spam Box
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    96 – Ah, ok, there goes that theory then ;)

  102. 102
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    96 - Ah, ok, there goes that theory then ;)

    I think you are right that it has something to do with the very first post of this thread being deleted, not just edited.

    It is quoted at #4, which for some people may appear as #5

  103. 103
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Ah I’ve found the culprit causing this mess to my numbering. William, can you please approve my post @ 47, or delete it altogether?

  104. 104
    zombie mao
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    I blame Obama, Ayers, Rudd, Whitlam and that pantless communist Humphrey B Bear.

  105. 105
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Cuppa, where was Conroy’s conscience when he labelled opposition to his Great Firewall as kiddie fiddlers?

  106. 106
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Pain-in-the-arse comment deleted – The Management.

  107. 107
    steve
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    Europe is on the brink of a currency meltdown.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/3260052/Europe-on-the-brink-of-currency-crisis-meltdown.html

  108. 108
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Europe is on the brink of a currency meltdown.

    Will this help the Ozzie go up so I can get some more cheap DVDs?

  109. 109
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    No 106

    I was quite enjoying buying cheap Blu-Rays from Amazon until our dollar crashed to 60c :(

  110. 110
    Cuppa
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    Future generations of employees would endure reduced pay, conditions, bargaining power and job security if the Liberals have their way.

    Most reasonable people deliberately try to leave a better world for their children. You could say it’s part of what makes us human. But not Liberals; their extremist ideology requires they leave a worse, more insecure workplace regime for their employee children than they themselves inherited from earlier generations.

    It’s a vote to turn the clock back, with their own descendants as the losers.

    Where is your conscience, GP, when you support reduced pay, working conditions and living standards for your own descendants?

  111. 111
    ShowsOn
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    I was quite enjoying buying cheap Blu-Rays from Amazon until our dollar crashed to 60c :(

    I’m not blu-ray compliant yet. I regret not making a few more big DVDPacific orders when the AUD$ was in the 90 US cent range. There just wasn’t a lot I wanted to buy. I’ve got an order of new releases that will ship in a couple of weeks. It is going to cost about 25% more than when I placed the order. :(

  112. 112
    Generic Person
    Posted Monday, October 27, 2008 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    No 109

    Cuppa you argument is emotional not factual. Employment actually increased under workchoices.

  113. 113
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Cuppa you argument is emotional not factual. Employment actually increased under workchoices.

    You’re confusing a proximate cause with an ultimate cause.

  114. 114
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    You should get on the Blu-Ray bandwagon ShowsOn. Image quality is great + plus there’s a lot of extra value if you use a PlayStation 3 as the player.

  115. 115
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    You should get on the Blu-Ray bandwagon ShowsOn. Image quality is great + plus there’s a lot of extra value if you use a PlayStation 3 as the player.

    There’s just not much out on the format that I want to buy at this stage. I mainly watch films made before 1970.

    Also, my TV doesn’t do 1080 progressive, only interlaced. So I wouldn’t get the full HD image anyway.

  116. 116
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Don’t misrepresent what I said. I’m not talking about the amount of employment. (You could have full employment – 0% unemployment – in a pure slave economy.) I am talking about pay, conditions and job security, deliberately undermined by SerfChoices, with you as an enthusiastic proponent, knowingly supporting the deterioration of employment conditions for your own descendants.

  117. 117
    lefty e
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Ok, so remember I was asking why money WOULDNT flow to banks given they have positive returns, and shares/ mortgage funds are negative?

    Well dig this: most of these funds froze BEFORE this month. That’s right. Check this list http://www.maynereport.com/articles/2008/08/28-0958-6879.html

    Which only goes to show what a completely irresponsible TURKEY Turnbull is. He’s spun this for all its worth, and its all a CROCK!! He should be drawn and quartered by the media.

    These funds were toast way before the guarantee. Read the list.

  118. 118
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    No 113

    There’s no perceptible difference between 1080i and 1080p.

    I particularly like Marlon Brandon’s old films, Caesar and Mutiny on the Bounty in particular. ;-)

  119. 119
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    No 114

    My pay increased under Workchoices. Only unionists think that it is impossible to bargain with employers on an individual basis.

  120. 120
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    @97 – GP

    “Cuppa you’re full of nonsense. Come back when you have a real argument devoid of infantile blather.”

    Pot… kettle… black…

  121. 121
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    Isn’t it quiet around here when the kids are playing nicely together?

  122. 122
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    I think GP has shown us that, like most Libs, he longs for the day when Serfchoices can be brought back to life and advanced even further. (I know GP we have Serfchoices lite now …yeah, yeah.)

  123. 123
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    I particularly like Marlon Brandon’s old films, Caesar and Mutiny on the Bounty in particular. ;-)

    Yeah got those and love them both. In fact I have 20 Brando films on DVD.

    A blu-ray of Mutiny on the Bounty would be awesome. Warner released it on HD-DVD, so surely they will do a blu-ray soonish.

    I’ll probably get How the West Was Won first. Warner released it on a format called Smilebox that emulates watching it on a deeply curved Cinerama screen:
    http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews40/how_the_west_was_won_blu-ray.htm

    They didn’t release it Smileboxed on DVD, blu-ray only.

  124. 124
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    My pay increased under Workchoices

    Says Mr Magoo. Only a Liberal would be so selfish and short-sighted as to think it’s only about them personally here and now. “I’m OK, bugger everyone else, including my own descendants.” Humans think of their children and the generations after. They don’t want them to inherit reduced pay, conditions and bargaining power courtesy of the Liberals miserable ideology.

  125. 125
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    No 122

    Actually there was a long-running saga of threads on Whirlpool that detailed the war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. I said BR would win all along. :) The PS3 was the Trojan horse.

    But yes, HD Brando films are always worth the money.

  126. 126
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    Cuppa, stop serving them up red cordial while the little darlings are temporarily so engrossed in the movies.

  127. 127
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    GP just shows that like all Liberals, no matter what they say, they still believe in full deregulation of the workplace.

    Despite WorkChoices creating further regulation.

  128. 128
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Abusive comment deleted – The Management.

  129. 129
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    No 126

    Yes, notwithstanding some simple minimum standards, the labour market should be fully deregulated.

  130. 130
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    @127

    “Yes, notwithstanding some simple minimum standards, the labour market should be fully deregulated.”

    Full of contradiction. But that’s been your life story on poll bludger eh?

  131. 131
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    And further, do we support Howard’s WorkChoices with increased regulation, or do we not support it, instead supporting deregulation?

  132. 132
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  133. 133
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Now i’m a Greens supporter, but I see Christine Milne is on a flight of fantasy again. Different times, different situation, well-entrenched major parties.

    Green government on the way in Canberra: senator – http://www.theage.com.au/national/green-government-on-the-way-in-canberra-senator-20081027-59ti.html

    AUSTRALIA is in sight of a major political realignment that will see the Greens form government in Australia, the party’s climate change spokeswoman says.

    In a speech to the Sydney Institute last night, Christine Milne said there was a “real prospect” the Greens could broaden its support base as the community embraced the need for a “green new deal”.

    She said the Nationals were in decline the Liberals in a state of flux and Labor was disappointing its voters.

    “Just as Labor began with a few individuals being elected and then achieved balance of power and then opposition and government, so too it will be for the Greens. We are on our way to government,” she said.

  134. 134
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  135. 135
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    I think Christine forgot to take her medication.

  136. 136
    Spam Box
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    On that note, night all :)

    See you all tomorrow, hopefully we’ll have something better to bitch about ;)

  137. 137
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  138. 138
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  139. 139
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  140. 140
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    Workchoices reduced unemployment and kept inflation under control.

  141. 141
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    SerfChoices was an unmandated attack on the pay, conditions, job security, bargaining power and living standards of innocent, trusting employees. It was planned to destroy workers’ unions in this country, to thereby deprive employees of their only form of organised advocacy, and undermine the financial viability of the Labor Party, for the entrenchment advantage of the miserable Liberals, eroding the viability of the two-party system.

  142. 142
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  143. 143
    Dario
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Workchoices reduced unemployment

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc

  144. 144
    lefty e
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Erm, the Greens WILL be forming a government in the ACT. Probably this week. With another party, I grant you, but nonetheless., its a big moment.

  145. 145
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  146. 146
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Tedious bickering deleted – The Management.

  147. 147
    lefty e
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    This is not a pipe.

    —U

  148. 148
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    This is not a pipe.

    —U

    OK Magritte, let me guess, it’s an em dash and a capital letter u?

  149. 149
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    NewsPoll linkage:
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll28oct.pdf

  150. 150
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Still a pretty good result for Turnbull during a time when the PM is guaranteeing everything and throwing around $10.4 billion of pork.

  151. 151
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:38 am | Permalink

    When Turnbull’s Preferred PM rating is not even matching the coalition, or even the Liberal primary vote, it means he is not even gaining the support of the Liberal base – let alone any swing or minor party voters.

    That’s not a good result for a party leader regardless of the situation.

    You can attempt to sugar coat it all you want GP, or maybe you even believe it. The Liberals are consigned to a decade in opposition.

  152. 152
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll28oct.pdf

    WOW, check out Rudd’s satisfaction/dissatisfaction rating! Amazing! It hasn’t been that good for many polls!

  153. 153
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:48 am | Permalink

    Also check out the ‘who is best to handle the economy’…

    Rudd goes from 41% to 50%

    Turnbull falls from 43% to 35%

    Ahh, the merchant of venice is being beaten at his own game. Quite the amusement.

  154. 154
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:53 am | Permalink

    In case you haven’t worked it out by now: when you have a comment in moderation, the comment appears on your screen along with the notice that the comment is awaiting moderation. This comment isn’t there for everybody else, which means subsequent comments are numbered one higher as you see them.

  155. 155
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:01 am | Permalink

    Both of these polls show Rudd’s personal ratings continuing to increase markedly right across the board, so there can be no doubt at all that he is wining with the electorate and they have already developed increased confidence in him.

    Turnbull it seems has gotten everyone scratching their heads and not knowing what to make of him. He has hardly changed, has lots of undecideds. They certainly don’t want him as PM or financial manager. I think people don’t understand what he is on about or what point he is trying to make since he changes his position so much. However it appears that more people are going to jump to Rudd and Labor.

    From memory when we have had polls where Rudd’s personal ratings had improved but not the TPP the next polls showed an increase in the TPP. As though we are watching people half way through jumping over.

    The last batch of polls has showed Rudd increasing his personal standing even when already high. Surely this will be followed by a few point jump in the polls shortly.

    I also get the feeling that Turnbull’s behavior is getting close to the line of revealing his true character. The sinister slippery side may rise to the surface occasionally and the negative attacks whilst they might get a few points off Rudd eventually may also critically stain himself. No wonder the OO and others media are doing their hardest to help Turnbull, he would have no hope otherwise.

    I reckon without all this latest B/S from Turnbull and his media remoras the ALP may have picked a few more points.

    Labor just needs to refer to Turnbull’s behavior as sinister or slippery barrister stuff just to put the idea into people’s heads then they can observe Turnbull.

  156. 156
    Frank Calabrese
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:05 am | Permalink

    Offtopic levity :-)
    For fans of Clarke & Dawe, here is Brian Dawe back in his pop star days :-)

    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qk_zIxcP_7o

  157. 157
    Bird of paradox
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Further offtopicness: Frank + other Westralians, if you’re interested in meeting / bothering / shouting at Allanah MacTiernan, she’s at Oak Lawn, UWA, 1pm. Meet ‘n’ greet thing, put on by UWA Young Labor. I aim to stand out by (a) having voted for her in her own seat, and (b) the shirt. Meet me, you’ll understand. :)

  158. 158
    Boerwar
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    A propos of the past few weeks, it looks like the people have got it right. they understand that Rudd/Swann have mostly got it right, if not always at the first go, and if not always in the detail. But, Rudd/Swan have mostly got the big picture right, which is all about confidence. Turnbull/Bishop have mostly got it wrong, often at the first go, because they don’t get the confidence bit, or their role in supporting public confidence. Quite the opposite, in fact. Turnbull has missed a huge opportunity to look like he gets the basic fact of economic management right now which is building confidence, not white-anting it. Anyway, grumpily:
    Question: ‘What is the difference between Rudd and Turnbull?’
    Answer: ‘Rudd is a control freak and Turnbull is an out-of-control freak.’

  159. 159
    dawson
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    LeftyE
    the Greens being part of a coalition government is scarcely new, so how can it be seen as a great step forward? Tasmania has seen at least two Green coalition governments, firstly with Labor and then with the Liberals.
    Working from memory (too lazy this morning to google), both were seen as failures, with both of the majors subsequently declaring they wouldn’t work with the Greens again.

  160. 160
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    I glanced at the Australian’s front page on-line: there is very little publicity being given to this poll. I wonder why? You’d think Shanahan would be trumpeting a fall of 1 point in 2PP… “thin end of the wedge” and all that. I wonder how all this will play in their “the Rudd government is a ‘oncer’” and “Turnbull plays for keeps” hymn books?

    The hapless comment that Shaun Carney made in his Saturday article that the Turnbull, the political brawler and “take no prisoners” bare-knuckle street fighter, inflicts a lot of damage on himself, but doesn’t care as long as he inflicts more on his opponent seems kind of quaint in the light of today’s poll. We’ve seen the damage he’s inflicted on himself… still waiting to see the other half of the equation.

    Off-Topic: Blu Ray v. Standard Definition DVD
    Although I reserve final judgement, as I have not seen the extent and nature of the films in Generic Person’s library, I express a cautious agreement with him that Blu Ray is a superior entertainment medium to standard definition DVD.

    I am shocked to agree with him again that there is no perceptible difference between 1080i and 1080p display devices. The reason I am shocked is that this makes two instances of agreement with GP in one post, on one topic.

    So, you can imagine my horror when I find myself agreeing with GP a third time. Marlon Brando’s high-camp performance in Mutiny On The Bounty is a corker.

    I must warn Bludgers that on a small screen (i.e. anything less than about 100cm diagonal), it is difficult for the non-aficianado to see the quality difference between Blu Ray (or the now defunct HD-DVD) and a good quality Standard Definition DVD. However, using a 1920 x 1080 pixel projector on a 3200 x 1350mm Cinemascope screen (with an anamorphic projection lens added to the system to widen the image to its full 2.40:1 ’scope aspect), viewed from about 4 metres away – as I do – is a truly stunning, totally cinematic experience. The image reveals more and more detail; detail which is completely missing on Standard Definition DVD. 1920 x 1080 resolution is very close to the standard adopted for commercial digital projection (2048 x 1080) in cinemas.

    Unfortunately, the selection of classics available on Blu Ray is limited. It will probably take a couple of years for the studios to get up to speed on their back catalog. However, a well-transferred 4:3 aspect B&W “classic” works pretty well with the projection system described above (without the ’scope lens being used, of course). Certainly much better than just watching these movies on a TV screen. The reason is that 4:3 films use the complete available resolution of Standard Definition, whilst – counter-intuitively, perhaps (to use La Stupenda’s favourite word) – 16:9 and 2.40:1 widescreen films fall significantly short of that utilisation.

  161. 161
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    At last a comment from Shanahan:

    Just as there were signs that voters were beginning to be concerned about a lack of decision from the Prime Minister and his economic credentials the latest Newspoll survey shows he has boosted his leadership back to near-record levels.

    You can almost see the tears rolling down his face. Dennis thought he had Kevin on the ropes with his stupid story about who said what to whom and when.

    Oh well, back to those little pieces of paper and the Ouiji board, Dennis.

  162. 162
    ltep
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    news.com.au is running their story on the polls under the headline:

    ‘Generation turing cold on environment’

    As far as I can see there is no other coverage of the poll on the main page.

  163. 163
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    You can almost see the tears rolling down his face. Dennis thought he had Kevin on the ropes with his stupid story about who said what to whom and when.

    Oh well, back to those little pieces of paper and the Ouiji board, Dennis.

    The bad news from this Newspoll is the poor timing of the stunt that the Oz and Liberal Party tried to pull on the Australian people. With the last interest rate cut yet to flow fully through and another large interest rate cut certain next month it has got to be the worst time of the century to be running around actively talking down the Australian economy by the Opposition. Their argument on extending the guarantee has been contemptible.

    With the Christmas silly season fast approaching there is now little hope of the Opposition making any traction until well into next year.

    From memory I think that Possum’s work on the effects of interest rate cuts is highest for the Government six weeks after they are announced so there is plenty of pain still to come for Turnbull and the Liberals.

  164. 164
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    As ruawake pointed out on the night of the one percent interest rate cut, interest rates are lower now than when Howard gained office and also when he left office.

  165. 165
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    There is no doubt after the past week in politics that the Liberals are the best economic scavengers, picking their way recklessly, like demented hyenas, through the entrails of the financially moribund such as the self managed funds, in the hope of finding some indigestible viscera for themselves and their supporters to gnaw on.

    Standards will always be lower under the Liberals.

  166. 166
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    Now, trying to be as fair as I can here, this is a serious dilemma for an opposition, any opposition. If they attack the government’s handling of the economy in a crisis, they will be accused of undermining confidence, talking down the economy, etc etc, as indeed the Libs are now being accused. But if they do nothing, if they support the government, will they get credit for putting the public good before party self-interest? Of course not. They’ll be ignored, or else derided as weak and having no policies. The duty of an opposition is to oppose, and they must do this in the knowledge that against a popular first-term government, they will get knocked down a lot before they can hope to land any blows. But they have no choice. Let’s ask ourselves, What Would Kevin Do? If the boot was on the other foot, would he patriotically abstain from attacking PM Turnbull’s handling of the GFC? Of course not, he’d go in boots and all, using any populist stick he could find. And if perchance he didn’t, he’d be rolled in favour of someone who would. Opposition Leader is inherently a position of weakness. The only way to survive in it is to attack. That’s what Turnbull is doing, because he has no choice. Since his attacks lack credibility, and are not cutting through, he’ll probably go down in flames. But if he doesn’t attack he’ll go down anyway.

  167. 167
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    You are of course right Adam, but just for once I am enjoying basking in moral superiority…..

  168. 168
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Don’t get me wrong Adam, I actually enjoy watching a Liberal Party frothing at the mouth, running around in circles, offering bi partisan support one day, trying to kick the economy to death the next.

    Outside of gaining themselves a reputation of carping, destructive whingers I am not sure that politically it can achieve much except perhaps poor poll results.

  169. 169
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Adam 165

    I agree – that is exactly why I said in my post 41 that I wouldn’t be too upset about the 1% drop in 2PP if I was Labor. Turnbull is playing a risky game and if Rudd keeps reminding people every time Turnbull says something alarmist, he has a lot to lose.

    Also, there are still the benefits of the stimulus package measures to kick in yet. Polls will improve in November and December as that happens when the pensioners get their payment.

  170. 170
    Hugo
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Interesting theory Adam, and for the most part I agree with you. However, if we compare Opposition behaviour in 2007 and in 2008 (though obviously last year was an election year, and so qualitatively different in terms of the zeitgeist), perhaps a different story emerges. One of my abiding memories of last year was KR’s refusal to engage on the wedge issues (eg the Intervention, Haneef etc). Rudd would merely support the government in theory and then wait for the issue to blow up in Howard’s face. This year, however, the Oppostion has taken a scatter-gun approach, critisising everything the government does, in the hope that something sticks.

    IMHO, I don’t think such tactics work too well out there in Voter-land, as the two polls from recent days attest. People don’t like a whinging Opposition, and as such, an Opposition needs to choose its fights carefully.

    My view is that the Liberal Party is behaving a bit like the ALP (and the Left generally) in the late 90s. People like us just couldn’t believe that anyone could vote for Howard, so we made excuses for it (eg ‘96 was all about Keating, ‘98 Bomber won the popular vote, ‘01 all about Tampa etc). It took a long time for the engaged Left to appreciate that the average swinging voter didn’t actually hate Howard like we did, and that our constant carping was actually a bit of turn-off for these people. And so it is with Rudd. The Libs have this idea that he is a “phoney”, and if they can just make the public understand that, then they will be back in government and all will be well. Thing is that people don’t like to be told that “they got it wrong”, and as such the ALP will be miles ahead (all other things being equal) until well into their second term.

  171. 171
    ltep
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    I agree with some of what you’re saying Hugo. It’s funny that people who were so willing to call anyone who criticised Howard ‘Howard Haters’ are now diong the same thing with Rudd. ‘Rudd Haters’ of course doesn’t have the added joy of alliteration.

  172. 172
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    the Greens being part of a coalition government is scarcely new, so how can it be seen as a great step forward?

    The Greens have never been part of any formal coalition. For the first time in history they are in a position to take ministerial portfolios and have been offered them. I believe that is the “great step forward”.

    So remember how I said yesterday that the drop in the 2PP could mean that Labor’s primary vote was up and the Greens primary vote was down back to 9? Win.

  173. 173
    Hugo
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Rudd Riders? Rudd Wreckers? Repelled by Rudd? Kevin Critics? Agreed, Itep, none of them have the smooth cadence of “Howard Haters”.

  174. 174
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Konstant Karping Kritics and Kastigators of Kevin, or K5s for short.

  175. 175
    evan14
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    The media, especially the ABC/News Ltd, have given Turnball such a free kick over the last fortnight! And yet the public aren’t buying the idea that Rudd/Swan can’t handle the economy? It goes to show how out of touch the MSM are, again!

  176. 176
    Dario
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    lol Adam

  177. 177
    evan14
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    And the ABC are doing their best to give John McCain favourable coverage – WTF?

  178. 178
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    It’s called balance, evan14. Balance.

  179. 179
    Dario
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Your ABC. Fair and balanced.

  180. 180
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    They report, you decide.

  181. 181
    ltep
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    It appears Mr Downer personally didn’t want Haneef’s visa to be cancelled at the time of the events, instead it was his view that:

    “If the court refused to allow more deadtime on Friday, Mr Downer’s strong preference was that there be a couple of days’ grace, during which it was to be hoped that Haneef himself would see the writing on the wall and leave Australia voluntarily.”

    How charming. In other words, he was hoping he’d realise he wasn’t wanted here and to go back to where he comes from.

  182. 182
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Agree with ltep on Downer, though I don’t think he was the principal agent in the Haneef case. I’d still like to hear what was Kevin Andrew’s role. I think he still has a lot of explaining left to do.

  183. 183
    Albert Ross
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    n case you haven’t worked it out by now: when you have a comment in moderation, the comment appears on your screen along with the notice that the comment is awaiting moderation. This comment isn’t there for everybody else, which means subsequent comments are numbered one higher as you see them.

    Is that a bug or a feature?

  184. 184
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    http://news.smh.com.au/national/govt-wont-meet-funds-commitment-murray-20081028-5a1t.html

    The chairman of the Future Fund says that there’s no way in the current cycle the Government is going to be having the kinds of surplus’ we’ve had in the past. I agree. That brings up the fact that it was positive economic circumstances that created the surplus’ not any magical financial wizardry on the part of Peter Costello.

    How sad for this country that tens of billions of dollars of surplus were wasted instead of being invested in infrastructure. And now there’s a government that wants to invest they’re hamstrung by this economic collapse. Arghhhh.

  185. 185
    Dario
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Is that a bug or a feature?

    In the software world, a bug is just an undocumented feature :)

  186. 186
    Albert Ross
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    The media, especially the ABC/News Ltd, have given Turnball such a free kick over the last fortnight! And yet the public aren’t buying the idea that Rudd/Swan can’t handle the economy? It goes to show how out of touch the MSM are, again!

    In an every accelerating rush to toady to the rich and powerful the ABC have now handed over the soapbox of the once illustrious Boyer Lectures to a geriatric US businessman, the Dirty Digger.

    What with their spinelessness on criticism of programs like the Religion Report it seems that ABC management have given up attempting to be innovative and cutting edge. All we are going to get is a regurgitation of News Ltd AGMs but without the dissenting voice of Stephen Mayne.

    Shame ABC Shame.

  187. 187
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Why PR sucks, episode 989347
    http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/israelis-wonder-if-livni-is-the-answer/2008/10/27/1224955950058.html

  188. 188
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    PR is not the problem. Pathetic parties and a 2% threshold are the problem.

  189. 189
    ltep
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    “BOOK editor Peter van Onselen says he was “disgusted and embarrassed” to learn that the deputy Liberal leader, Julie Bishop, had not written the essay which appeared in his book under her name.”

    I’d be pretty embarrassed as well (to have even bothered editing such a book)!

    “Dr van Onselen said he was confident that her article was the only plagiarism in the book, although he said Brendan Nelson, who was Opposition leader at the time, may have had help from a staffer in preparing his article for the book. Dr Nelson could not be reached for comment yesterday.”

    Read: He didn’t write his article either

    “The other MP contributors to the book, Liberals And Power – The Road Ahead, were Tony Abbott, George Brandis, Michael Keenan and Brett Mason”

    Well I can tell this will be a gripping page turner! Can’t miss that one…

  190. 190
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Ltep – you’ve probably read the book already under the names of other authors.

  191. 191
    ltep
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Yes Steve, Brandis’ contribution will begin ‘I’m George, I’m from Queensland and I’m here to help’.

  192. 192
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    or given his Lateline performance last week,”I’m George, I’m from Queensland and I’m here to talk down the Australian economy.”

  193. 193
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    And talk over everyone else.

  194. 194
    lefty e
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    I actually think the ABC reportage is among the worst, and lazy as well. This morning I heard a reporter say “the freezing of funds CAUSED BY the government bank gurantee”.

    Hey, you ABC slacktards: check this list before opening yer traps. http://www.maynereport.com/articles/2008/08/28-0958-6879.html

    More than half of these froze BEFORE the government gurantee was issued. How do you CAUSE something that happened beforehand? Hmmmm??

    example: “Macquarie Group: froze redemptions on its $1 billion Direct Property Fund and Direct Wholesale Property Fund on August 25.”

    The govt issued its banking gurantee on October 12.

    What is it the media doesnt get about time, space and causality?

    And as for Malcolm, well, you be the judge. Talking it all down for partisan gain? He must be aware the funds were freezing beforehand.

  195. 195
    Spam Box
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    ltep @ 188

    Where did you get the quote about Nelson getting some help? I can’t see it in the original article.
    In comments I asked Onselen if he had confirmation that all the others wrote their own bit but he didn’t reply (did post the comment though so credit to him for that)

  196. 196
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    lefty e perhaps the funds could do what Peter Martin suggests and begin advertising. (Language warning.)

    http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/perhaps-funds-should-ramp-up-their.html

  197. 197
    Spam Box
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Oh, Ok cancel that request ltep, I found it at SMH :)

  198. 198
    Spam Box
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    steve @ 195

    rofl, thanks for that clip – very funny :)

  199. 199
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Posts 150-200 have provided the biggest entertainment on poll bludger for a while. The Liberals really are screwed aren’t they…

  200. 200
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Oz 183
    Your comments on the soon to dissappear surplus are no doubt sadly true. ABC reported version is here:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403163.htm

    Funny isn’t it – I thought the surplus was due to the Howard government’s good economic management and introduction of Workchoices?

    While I don’t doubt Muray’s comments on the surplus, I found his other comments on the government buying a stake in the property funds hard to swallow. Two questions: 1. why? They are at risk investments and he as a former bank CEO shoudl know that.
    2. if we did that, and already face having no surplus, what do we then use to restart the economy with? Silly idea.

  201. 201
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    I’m not surprised by these poll numbers for the past two weeks have been Interesting.

    Both sides have made clear mistakes, I think the voters are starting to turn off! which is bad news for Turnbull, the reason why I think they are turning off is they mostly understand that the situation is a flow on from a global downturn and while people are concerned in general they are pleased with the Governments $10.4B package and the cuts in Interest Rates.

    Sure there have been some job loses but as we know that is a common thing and in reality Unemployment hasn’t risen in an out of control fashion, generally the correction in property prices would be seen as a good thing and while people would be concerned by the falling value of Superfund’s and the share market they fully know that this is due to the global economy.

    I would imagine within most financial companies some sort of brief has been provided to employees regarding the companies position both in the short term and long term.

    While the job market has tightened there are still jobs out there the point being the majorly have some understanding the state of the economy, the Government has done several very good things while the opposition have for the most part focused on who said what to whom and when.

    I think it was Hugo who said it reminded him of the ALP in the late 90s and that is a very good way of putting it for the Liberal Party may well be making great points that go down really well in North Sydney and Kooyong but to the voters of Mortgage land to quote Clark Garbo “Quite frankly my dear I don’t give a damn.

    These voters look at the cut in Interest rates and the handouts and think their money is safe in the bank therefore life is still good. sure the Rudd Government has made several mistakes this week that have hurt it but at this stage the only people taking note of those are what we would call Liberal Voters a bit like during the 90s the ALP voters would go red in the face over something which to most was nothing.

    If an election was held now I would expect the ALP to be returned but I seriously dealt there would be a landslide, in fact the ALP might lose a few seats.

    54-46 is a 1% swing to the ALP.

  202. 202
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    No Future: Credit crisis killing infrastructure plans – http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403163.htm

    Thankyou very much Howard. The boom years, wasted.

  203. 203
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    There was a remarkably good economic result (5% GSP growth!) reported for Qld today:
    http://news.smh.com.au/national/queensland-economy-grows-at-51-per-cent-20081028-5a5l.html

    When does Anna Bligh have to go to an election? She must be desperately hoping this holds up till after then. It won’t of course, but even if the Qld growth rate halved it would still be respectable. I suspect that result will be close.

  204. 204
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    bob

    Yes they were. A lot of financiers driving around in foreign cars and yuppies in McMansions will be the principal Howard legacy.

    Call em biased as an engineer but the frustrating thing now is that, even if more serious money is put into “nation building” type infrastructure projects, most of the really substantial ones take several years to get going. it isn’t just red tape: for example if you have to resume land for a new rail line, people have statutory rights of appeal. Similarly with environmental studies: many are needed to establish safe design criteria for the projects. So even with swift action, 2009 could be a fairly lean year.

  205. 205
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know what’s so bad in QLD that warrants replacing the Government with Springborg.

  206. 206
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Socrates the next Queensland election is due by September next year. This week will be interesting too as state parliament is meeting in Cairns for three days beginning today.

    I’m not sure if Question time will be delayed because of the regional parliament but there is usually a series of gaffes by the Liberal National Party that make hansard a quirky read. I’ve got this week off work so if the Liberal National Party do anything usual, I’ll share the stupidity far and wide.

  207. 207
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    Oz

    I don’t have a strong opinion on Bligh; I was just observing that recent opinion polls have been closer. If the economy tightens as well that would make the election tight. Of course, the pinneapple party leadership saga will still help Bligh enormously when the crunch comes.

  208. 208
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    The Liberal National Party always poll well when they are in hiding and with absolutely no policies. One they come out in public with a policy or two in tow things go pear shaped very quickly.

  209. 209
    vera
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    David Murray was one of the reasons we switched banks from Commonwealth to ANZ, When he was head of Commonwealth Bank he was Howards most strident supporter. Every election he’d be there with the Rodent singing his praises.
    So I personally wouldn’t take much notice of anything he had to say

  210. 210
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    vera @ 209, I assume you’re replying to:

    “No Future: Credit crisis killing infrastructure plans – http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403163.htm

    Thankyou very much Howard. The boom years, wasted.”

    Regardless of who says it, it is true. The crunch is here, locally and globally money is not being splashed around like candy anymore, the time to invest in nationbuilding during the boom years has come and gone.

    That is Howard’s legacy. The wasted years and WorkChoices.

  211. 211
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Vera
    No I think Murray is talking rubbish about extending the guarantee. But I fear he may be right about the surplus.

  212. 212
    vera
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    I agree the surplus is stuffed, just saying I wouldn’t want Rudd taking advice from this bloke.

  213. 213
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Why would Murray even be commenting on extending the guarantee?

  214. 214
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Looking at those Newspoll figures I’m struggling to find any proof to support GP’s comment that Malcolm is holding his own. Or was he referring to something else?

  215. 215
    Dario
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    Probably because a journalist was looking for a quote

  216. 216
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    “the surplus is stuffed”.

    How succinct.

  217. 217
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Has anyone been able to find an economist yet that believes the Federal government has taken the wrong path in all of this financial mess?

  218. 218
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    John Stone probably does. What has Terry McCrann had to say? What has John Hewson had to say?

  219. 219
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    GB
    If your question sought a qualified, independant economist I think the answer is no – they all agreed the bank guarantee was necessary, same with the drop in interest rates, same with the fiscal stimulus. There was some debate on the way the first home buyer bonus was handled (could have led to inflation) but overall no – I am not aware of any credible Australian economic analysts who dissented. I’m still not.

  220. 220
    dave
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    re “the surplus is stuffed”.

    The Govt can and will go into deficit OR use its AAA credit rating to borrow to spend on infrastructure etc, which in turn will help kick the economy along.

    Nothing wrong with that – over the cycle.

    They have also said they will dip into the future fund if need be as well. Bear in mind the future fund was a con anyway. tip and co just didn’t have a clue where to spend it anyway despite the crying need for nation wide infrastructure spend.

    BTW the future fund was and is a con is because it was supposedly set up to meet unfunded public service pension liabilities – the baby boomer generation in the main.

    Some years ago – 5 years or so ?? the commonwealth adopted accrual accounting with provision is set aside on a yearly basis to met such liabilities.

    With the progressive retirement of the boomers in coming years and as they progressively fall off their perches the liability with also run off. OK these people are in retirement and still need to be paid pensions etc, but the liability does run off.

    The need for the fund was always overstated, although was probably a good idea from the viewpoint that rodent would spent it on election bribes as he did with the bulk of the windfall from the minerals boom.

    Saul Estlake from ANZ calculated that the rodent years saw about $309 B of $310 B from the minerals boom in giveaways basically wasted and with nothing in the way of nation building to show for it.

    A epitaph of the rodent years if there ever was one.

  221. 221
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    That being said, here is some more sobering news on the underlying problem in financial markets (outside Australia): banks (and others) still haven’t come clean on who owes what to whom, and how many bad debts they hold:
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3c241b54-a380-11dd-942c-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

    This is why banks are reluctant to lend to each other now – they don’t know who is a bad credit risk. This is also why the government should NOT be issueing guarantees to anyone but savings banks that are an essential part of the day to day economy.

  222. 222
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    Adam count McCrann out.

    In this context, the 'price' of the unlimited bank guarantee can be seen as well worth paying. It explains precisely why Treasury secretary Ken Henry and RBA governor Glenn Stevens were 'of one mind'.

    Even though granted, that does not solve the very real problems that have eventuated. But it would not be a good idea to try to address them by extending the guarantee.

    At its most brutal, bank deposits needed to be a protected species - the future of Australia was literally on the line. Other forms of investments did not.

  223. 223
    David Charles
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    GB @ 214 The Newspoll figures for the Australian Labor Party are very good at the moment, and not so good (without being disastrous) for the other side of politics. It is a little early yet to say whether or not Malcolm is ‘holding his own’ but the Liberals to be competitive (even at this relatively early stage of the electoral cycle) probably need a Coalition primary vote above 40% so I guess it’s fair to say the Opposition Leader and the Coalition parties should be concerned about the relatively low level of voter support for them and understand (if they do not already) that they have plenty of work to do.

    A crucial time to assess how each side is travelling as the momentum gathers for the next Federal election, will be around the conclusion of the financial year ending 30 June 2009 (that is, after the next Federal budget has been announced and also after some months have passed so we can see evidence of the extent to which the GFC has affected the Australian economy, particularly levels of unemployment).

  224. 224
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    A very weird ending to that article, he claims to know a solution in the last three paragraphs but doesn’t get to tell us what it is.

    http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24561145-36281,00.html

  225. 225
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Hang on, his solution is for the funds to get access to liquidity. If only the whole world financial system would take Terry’s advice we would have solved the problem. What a genius.

  226. 226
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    I hope the Herald Sun isn’t stupid enough to actually add to his liquidity by paying him to write this simplistic dribble.

  227. 227
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Is Alan Wood still economics editor of the Australian? What has he been saying?

    I’d be very interested to know Hewson’s view. I’m sure the media will have been after him – if he hasn’t said anything he must be lying low so he doesn’t have to criticise Turnbull.

  228. 228
    vera
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Sky Nooze main story…. by David Spears in USA
    “Obama campaign looking at Kevin Rudds emphatic victory for inspiration”

  229. 229
    MayoFeral
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    lefty e @ 194 -

    I actually think the ABC reportage is among the worst, and lazy as well. This morning I heard a reporter say “the freezing of funds CAUSED BY the government bank gurantee”.

    IMO, it’s a bit hard to be critical of the ABC when the Government, particularly Swan, seem to be accepting the total blame for the frozen funds as an unintended consequence of the bank guarantees too. Buggered if I know why. There’s been enough information posted here in the last day or two demonstrating that while the guarantees undoubtedly haven’t helped matters (with more than a little help from the Opposition’s hysterics) they weren’t thecause. You’d think Swan et al would be even more aware of the true state of play than us.

    An explanation of why extending the guarantee to the mortgage funds is not a smart thing to do wouldn’t hurt either.

    They may be doing all the right things in financial terms, but I am starting to despair of the Government’s handling of the politics.

  230. 230
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Swan will need to be very careful what he says about mortgage trusts and why government wont guarantee them, otherwise he risks having people think they are too risky to guarantee. I’m not sure if he would want to say there was a run on them prior to the guarantee as that will get people thinking that there IS a problem with these things. So best thing for him to say is not much.

  231. 231
    dave
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    TP

    Its a pity allbull didn’t take your advice. He has gone out of his way to talk up problems.

    Not a good look for someone who is soo desperate to be PM.

  232. 232
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    MF

    Well they should explain five things about the bank guarantees:
    1. there was no choice on the bank guarantees – action had to be taken, and it was a policy implemented globally
    2. the bank guarantees have worked – our banks are OK and our econmy is still moving
    3. investment funds are not bank accounts – and some were frozen before this anyway
    4. people with money in frozen funds haven’t lost their cash – it is still there earning dividends. They will just have to wait, and they can get assistance in the mean time.
    5. extending the guarantee to investment funds would be too messy (do share funds get it?), too expensive, and there was never any suggestion that they were government guaranteed in the first place.

    Simple. Even Shanahan could understand it.

  233. 233
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    223 – A fair assessment David. I agree.

  234. 234
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Permission granted to messrs Rudd and Swan to use a modified vesion of 232 to reassure the nervous nellies. ;)

  235. 235
    dave
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    The only jurno yet to ask allbull what his detailed policy is on the G/- and related matters is red kerry.

    Allbull was asked repeatedly but refused to answer the questions.

    Why have no other jurnos even raised the matter. Is this not more than a fair question when allbull is talking up economic disaster for the nation.

    These were questions repeatedly asked of labor in opposition.

  236. 236
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Adam there is a 2UE radio interview with John Hewson here from Sunday 26/10/08. He wants bipartisanship, and agreement on detail as to how to handle the GFC.

    RBA, Treasury Govt, Opposition all locked in room till agreement reached..All about confidence. On about falls in Superannuation. Wants stability as soon as possible.

    http://www.2ue.com.au/timwebster

  237. 237
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Thanks Steve. That’s just a dodge, if he won’t say what he thinks actually ought to be done. Just calling for consensus is not a policy.
    As Lord Melbourne said to his Cabinet, “My Lords, Gentlemen, I don’t care a damn what we say, so long as we all say the same thing.”

  238. 238
    Socrates
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Steve

    Nobody can guarantee stability, or a halt to falls in superannuation. That agreement isn’t going to happen if anyone in the room is sane. Nor is there any obligation to agree with the opposition.

  239. 239
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    I think Hewson has the experience to pick how much potential there is for damage to the Liberal Party and took the opportunity to mouth what he thought would be soothing words to the faithful.

  240. 240
    rusty
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Why would you look to Hewson for advice? He lost the ‘unloseable election’.

  241. 241
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    rusty, seems like the old good cop, bad cop game. Turbull out there kicking heads while Hewson is talking consensus and the Opposition inside the tent etc.

  242. 242
    lefty e
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Mayo feral – I guess unlike Talcum, Swan isn’t about to come out and say” actually, those funds were already screwed” – since it wouldn’t help

    True as it is though.

  243. 243
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    This post on Shannahan’s blob goes a long way to explaining the flood of negative comments by rwdb Lib supporters on News Ltd and ABC sites.

    Obviously Newspoll only survey people in safe Labor seats/areas. They don't read online opinion/comment columns. There have been more negative comments directed towards Rudd, Swan et al than ever before. Rudd & Swan certainly haven't been handling this financial crisis confidently & subsequently causing public panic &/or nervousness.

    This part is telling besides the typical criticism of polling procedures which so many of them have been advocating for the past 18 Months.

    There have been more negative comments directed towards Rudd, Swan et al than ever before.

    I wonder just how long it will take before they wake up to the fact that flooding the internet with inane negative commentary doesn’t work. One poster complained that the average joe blow out there either aren’t reading their insightful, informative posts or are just plain dumb.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24562165-17301,00.html

  244. 244
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    I thought this one was rather good though.

    My God...how good is Kevin? In less than a month he's overtaken 'Mr economy' on the only subject Turnbull has any cred. Rudd is nothing short of Australia's own Bill Clinton.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24562165-17301,00.html

  245. 245
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Scorpio, what amazes me is how a sample of the population accurately reflects the gist of what the general population is thinking at any given point. Even the Liberals picked this one coming and sent in the clowns on Saturday night and yesterday to try to get a bit of damage control happening here on Poll bludger.

  246. 246
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    I think this still a pretty good result for Turnbull. At the end of the day, when people are fearful, they cling to the government of the day. We’ve seen it in the past, and we’re seeing it again today. It really doesn’t have a lot to do with Rudd’s alleged stellar economic management, though you wouldn’t know it reading the lefty circle jerk going on above…. :D

  247. 247
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know about the last part of your post GP, but I do know that an awful number of Coalition supporters on other sites are somewhat critical of Turnbull’s strategy over the past two weeks. Not counting the trolls of course who are still posting the same inane comments.

  248. 248
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    No 240

    Exactly.

  249. 249
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    245 – A lot of disappointment and down right resentment in that comment GP.
    So “in times of trouble” if people stick with the government why then would they change government if we’re still in “times of trouble” two years from now?

  250. 250
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    The question is are you “holding your ground” if your opponent goes ahead of you but you go along at the same pace? I would argue “no”.

  251. 251
    MayoFeral
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Thomas Paine @ 230 -

    I’m not sure if he would want to say there was a run on them prior to the guarantee as that will get people thinking that there IS a problem with these things. So best thing for him to say is not much.

    If it was still Howard and Costello do you think they’d be meekly taking the blame for this? Not on your Nelly. They’d be shouting from atop the Parliament House flagpole how they were just innocent bystanders and it was all the fault of those greedy foreigners and pointing out that the funds were loosing clients long before they worked their arses off saving the banks. And they’d have a point! Well, except for that last bit.

  252. 252
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    No 247

    No, I said when people are fearful, not “in times of trouble”.

  253. 253
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Such as this one which the poster must assume that the reader has been hiding in a cave somewhere or is totally stupid.

    You wait, as people start to lose their jobs the mood will change. I am in small business and Rudd has done nothing but encourage the RBA to put up interest rates in the being of the year. They have hardly come down since and this makes it very hard to keep employees on as business has slowed somewhat.

    She must have missed the 1.5% cut in interest rates recently or that there was only 2 rises of .25% earlier in the year and rates were on hold for the remainder.

    Somehow, I cannot believe this person is in business, more likely just a troll when you consider the rest of her post.

  254. 254
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Would I be happy if my horse went along at the same pace but those around it raced further in front? No.

  255. 255
    Andrew
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    GP long may you and your side think that being behind 8% 2PP, 34% behind on PPM (6% worse than last time) and 15% behind on managing the economy (17% worse than last time) is a GOOD result for Turnbull.

    Dont you get it?? The Libs have been miles behind for almost 2 YEARS now, they got voted out and yet STILL no introspection, contrition, attempt to review policies. No, just waiting for government to fall back into their laps because the Rudd election was a mistake.

  256. 256
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    What makes you think, GP, in bad economic times ahead people won’t remain fearful? If they don’t remain fearful why then would they change government?

  257. 257
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Well that depends on whether you have a fool as Treasurer…and Swan acts like a fool.

  258. 258
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    Not according to the polls Glen.

  259. 259
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Fancy putting the Libs in and having Mesmeralda as Treasurer. You’d have to be joking.

  260. 260
    Cuppa
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Scropio at number 243

    I’m pretty sure that during Howard’s day the balance of commentary on blogs, open-lines and such was usually against the government.

    That seems to be the way it is. People like to whinge, and will put considerable effort into doing so. On the other hand, people don’t so often take the effort to write that they are contented.

    This is a pronounced phenomenon with the Liberal sore losers who spill their bitterness and hurt all over ABC and News Ltd blogs day on day. They must really believe they should have won the election (even after all the misdemeanours of their side in power). Their noses are soooo chronically out of joint, it would make a rhinologist sit up and take notes.

  261. 261
    Andrew
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Glen, you illustrate my point perfectly. Could you (or GP) outline what level of support in the polls would you regard as concerning for the opposition??

  262. 262
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Anything below 45%2PP…so 46%2PP is a slight improvement but we need to be 48%2PP at the end of the year or next year to have a hope of contesting the 2010 election well.

  263. 263
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:46 pm | Permalink

    I suppose you would simply ignore Essential then…

  264. 264
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Essential is an internet poll=no credibility…

  265. 265
    ruawake
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    “Under a carbon pollution reduction scheme, the price of energy sources, such as petrol, electricity and gas may become more expensive. Do you think the federal Government should delay or should not delay the introduction of carbon pollution reduction scheme…” Newspoll question.

    What kind of loaded question is this? Why would anyone give the answer, to this crap question, any kind of credence?

    Its not a pollster type of question, it is a “we own it” type of question. :(

  266. 266
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Essential is an internet poll=no credibility…

    I’ll remember that anytime you attempt you use it’s figures to support a Turnbull “bounce”.

  267. 267
    Andrew
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    OK Glen so 56/44 is a worry but not 54/46. You forget that the incumbency factor is a huge advantage going into an election- even Howard pcked up over 3% 2PP during the campaign and that was a badly-run campaign with an interest rate rise and the Lindsay scare

  268. 268
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    Ru,

    This was picked up well by poster, Graham on Shannahan’s blog. He was really copping it today and comments were stopped at 11.36 am. Trying I guess to avoid more embarrassment and to try and save what is left of his credibility. Very little.

    What a laff. The ETS question could hardly be more loaded, and deliberately so. It reads: 'The ETS will make petrol etc more expensive. Given there is an economic crisis, do you support delaying its implementation' Reword the question as: 'Do you support delaying measures to reduce carbon in the atmosphere' and you'd reverse the result...

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24562165-17301,00.html

  269. 269
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    Their poll like the F2F Morgan regardless their absolute values are usefull for picking up movements.

    Both polls have been showing a strong recent personal move to Rudd which has translated to a higher TPP in the ER poll and, probably will for Labor in the next Newspoll, allowing for margin of error. You wouldn’t figure on Labor’s TPP going backwards while all the personal attributes of Rudd forge ahead.

    I agree tend to agree that Turnbull is in limbo. I think he is causing people to scratch theirs heads trying to actually get a finger on him, his messages are here and there, yes and no, there is no conitnuity and I think people don’t actually know what his position is on anything. He is in danger of just seeming a grumpy complainer and wind bag.

  270. 270
    ruawake
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Anyone have a theory why the Green vote has fallen from 13 to 9 ? Is it because peoples minds are focussed on the Global Financial Thingy?

  271. 271
    MayoFeral
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    lefty e @ 242 -

    Mayo feral – I guess unlike Talcum, Swan isn’t about to come out and say” actually, those funds were already screwed” – since it wouldn’t help

    True as it is though.

    If so, then the screwed will know exactly who to blame for the loss of their life savings and them ending their days nibbling dog biscuits in the poor house! After all the guilty have admitted it was all their doing, didn’t they?

    At least that will be how it will be forever portrayed. Bloody, Labor, you can’t trust them with your money. If only we’d listened to Fraser and stuffed it under the bed, Ethel!

  272. 272
    MayoFeral
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    lefty e @ 242 -

    Mayo feral – I guess unlike Talcum, Swan isn’t about to come out and say” actually, those funds were already screwed” – since it wouldn’t help

    True as it is though.

    If so, then the screwed will know exactly who to blame for the loss of their life savings and them ending their days nibbling dog biscuits in the poor house! After all the guilty have admitted it was all their doing, didn’t they?

    At least that will be how it will be forever portrayed. Bloody, Labor, you can’t trust them with your money. If only we’d listened to Fraser and stuffed it under the bed, Ethel!

  273. 273
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Yes, I concur with Glen. 45% or above is a good result for the opposition.

  274. 274
    MayoFeral
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Oops, sorry. :(

  275. 275
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    No 265

    Carbon is not pollution.

  276. 276
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Is it because peoples minds are focussed on the Global Financial Thingy?

    Most likely. They’ve been left out of the debate on the issue even though they’ve been putting out media releases and virtually every development, domestic and international. That’s hardly a surprise though.

  277. 277
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    If anything else the Labor vote in 2007 was inflated and will probably come down in 2010 whether we can win or not is another matter entirely.

    At this stage at least we arent 58-42 as we were at the beginning of the year with newspoll. That means we have gone up 4 and Labor have gone down 4. The greens are dreaming if they think they’ll even get 9% of the vote in 2010, enviro issues are not biting atm, economic management is the theme of the day. I hope Rudd puts in the ETS because he will make a big mistake once ppl start having to pay more and lose their jobs.

    Please do Oz.

  278. 278
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    What I find so fascinating about the now almost 12 Months of Government 2PP results and especially Rudd’s PPM figures, is that it has been achieved without them having to spend $200m in Government advertising or using the usual scare campaign and wedge tactics that Howard depended on for survival .

    I can’t remember seeing one Government add which could be in any way perceived as a party partisan political nature. Come to think of it I can’t remember seeing “any” Federal Government adds although there surely must have been at least some.

    No wonder the MSM have been going at Rudd so hard all year. The lolly train has run off the rails and must a major reason for the considerable drop in advertising revenue being experienced by them. Hence the substantial falls in their share prices.

    Packer jnr sure made a wise move getting out of the media business when he did.

  279. 279
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    @277 – Glen

    INFLATED! HAHA!

    I love Liberal supporters born to rule mentality. They always think they are right even when the election has been lost, think the public got it wrong, and will vote them back in next election.

    Won’t happen. Suck it up.

  280. 280
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    How is that born to rule?
    Labor won in a landslide it is only natural some of those who backed Rudd will come back, but not all.

    The public doesnt get it wrong Bob.

  281. 281
    imacca
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Cant see how 45% TPP is a good result for the opposition?? It’s loser territory in the polls at a time when probably the most significant issue in people minds is economic management. If the Fibs can’t pull ahead, significantly, on that metric, then the party that gave us SerfChoices has no chance at all.

    Of course, going into the next election, much will depend on how people judge the Rudd government has handled the current GFC in terms of keeping the economy running as best they can.

    But we know that Australia is not going to get through this pain free. So, they will also be judged on whatever policy settings they use to try and mitigate the flow on effects to the average punter like with actual welfare (not middle class) and ir.

    And the environmental issues that the ALP stood on at the last election wont go away. That’s important in this sense for preference flows from the Greens who after all have a big presence in the Senate for the next 6 years.

  282. 282
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    it is only natural some of those who backed Rudd will come back

    Why, Glen?

    If the Rudd Government keeps performing as well as they have done so far and if the Coalition continues to perform as poorly as they have so far, then why would voters, who moved across to Labor at the last election, suddenly get a rush of blood and go rushing back to the bosom of the Libs.

  283. 283
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Because if you are sitting high and mighty you never know what might befall you just like what happened to this South African MP… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmTlJH26IZU&feature=related

  284. 284
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    No 281

    imacca, I should clarify, 45% or above is a good result this far out from the election. Of course, if the polls remained at current levels in 2010, then of course that would not be good.

  285. 285
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    No 282

    You’re living with the fairies if you think the government has performed excellently thus far.

  286. 286
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    So voters are going to desert Rudd for the Libs because a heavyset South African MP broke a chair. I see.

  287. 287
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    No but my point is Rudd never saw the economic crisis hit him until too late like the Fat South African MP…they both knew something was bad as when the chair cracks and when earlier this year the subprime crisis was hitting us hard and was getting out of control but did nothing and now boom the chair has been broken and now Rudd and co needs to figure out how to stop us from getting into a real mess.

  288. 288
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Still if we go by First Past the Post

    39 Coalition
    44 Labor

    That is pretty close if you ask me. Despite losing office last year.

  289. 289
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    The Libs are only going to pick up votes if they have more coherent and positive policies about the GFC than Labor. They haven’t shown that to be the case yet.

  290. 290
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    285,

    54-46 and 61-39 tells me they aren’t doing too badly.

    All the figures since November 24 last year have been well above the 2PP figure of the election.

    So the general electorate must think they are doing OK too or else they are with the fairies also.

  291. 291
    ltep
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Why exactly would we ‘go first past the post’?

  292. 292
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    39 Coalition
    44 Labor

    That is pretty close if you ask me. Despite losing office last year.

    You can’t have “Coalition” under a first past the post system.

  293. 293
    vera
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    ruawake @ 265
    This Crikey article has another name for it.
    “Newspoll on ETS: a clear case of push polling?”
    http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20081028-ETS-push-polling.html

    I notice Allbull was out following or “pushing” the OO’s script today. Doesn’t he have any ideas of his own?
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403660.htm?section=justin

  294. 294
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    44 Labor v 39 Coalition under first past the post?

    LOL!!! His ignorance has been shown for what it is.

    It’s 44 Labor to 36 Liberal under first past the post. But that’s pointless as we use preferential voting, and a social leftie like me who votes Green then Labor isn’t counted when you use your first past the post method…

    Still confused, your post exposes a lot, rofl.

  295. 295
    bob1234
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    @284

    Labor didn’t stick on 45% 2pp after their loss in 1996.

  296. 296
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    No but my point is Rudd never saw the economic crisis hit him until too late like the Fat South African MP…they both knew something was bad as when the chair cracks and when earlier this year the subprime crisis was hitting us hard and was getting out of control but did nothing and now boom the chair has been broken and now Rudd and co needs to figure out how to stop us from getting into a real mess.

    Oh Dear, Glen talk about rewriting history. The subprime crisis dates back to August last year.

  297. 297
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Well i am assuming the tories would and should merge but hey.

    ALP 44
    Liberal Party 36
    National Party 3
    Greens 9

    PV is undemocratic and we should have still had 1PP voting.

  298. 298
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull could well be setting himself up for another embarrassing back-down if the modeling does take into consideration the GFC which it most probably will.

    [The Treasury modelling is due this week and will assist the Government in setting targets for greenhouse gas reduction.

    The Opposition says the modelling is months late and does not take into account the turmoil in global financial markets.

    Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull says the Government should not be rushing to introduce an emissions trading scheme in 2010.

    "It's likely to be economically very damaging and environmentally very ineffective so a lose-lose [situation],” he said.]

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403660.htm?section=justin

  299. 299
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Rudd brought out his 10b economic plan with no modelling shows how well the ALP are when it comes to economics!

  300. 300
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Hummm, Government making a move to assist Investment funds.

    Prime Minister Kevin Rudd will tonight announce an extra $80 million for the prudential regulator APRA - to process any applications from investment funds that want to become eligible for the Government guarantee.

    But to have the same backing as bank deposits they must meet the same rules as banks, including being supervised by APRA.

    It is not clear how many investment funds would want to do that or how far it would go towards solving the problem of the frozen funds.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403832.htm?section=justin

  301. 301
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:21 pm | Permalink

    299 Yes unlike the $billion 10 Murray water plan that was written on the back of an envelope in a Brisbane hotel while cabinet was meeting without being shown to Treasury…but that is Liberal great economic management at its very best.

  302. 302
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    Judy Barnes will be happy about this but will be hoping it brings closure to her case.

    A reward for information to help solve a string of South Australian murders of young men, known as the 'Family murders', has been doubled to $1 million.

    The SA Government has set aside $10 million to boost the rewards for 47 unsolved crimes, including the disappearance in 1966 of the Beaumont children.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/28/2403694.htm

  303. 303
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    scorpio @ 300. Heard this being talked about on local ABC (774) when Stephen Mayne was doing his regular spot with the sweet, but utterly light weight and politically clueless, Lindy B.. Asked for an immediate response, he said he’d need to think about it, but that it sounded sensible. After listening to PM, including having to endure Costello bleating it should be him at the helm on the basis, I think, that he was a Treasurer for some time and actually understood this stuff, after all hadn’t he been warning of the coming economic tsunami before the election, and why didn’t people listen, blah, blah, and having a bit of a think about it my self, it does actually sound like it might be pretty smart. Stick to their guns about not guaranteeing investment funds, but if the funds want to comply with APRA standards, they’ll stump up the money to make it happen. Pretty nifty. Will be interesting to see what some of the more sensible economic pundits make of it.

  304. 304
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Just another thought, that’s actually on topic, I reckon one thing contributing to the persistence of the polling trend, is that what the gov’t. repeatedly demonstrates, is that they stick to their word = trust. Thinking back to some of the other polling on this factor, Rudd cf. Turnbull, I think form memory, Turnbull did quite poorly on this measure, while a large proportion of the population actually trust the gov’t..

  305. 305
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Rudd brought out his 10b economic plan with no modelling shows how well the ALP are when it comes to economics!

    Modelling takes weeks, if not months. Do you suggest the Government wait months before stepping in to save the economy?

  306. 306
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    That’d be ‘from’ memory, and can’t blame the three legged cat.

  307. 307
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    The Ken Henry hansard has been released.

    http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/its-out-much-awaited-ken-henry-hansard.html

  308. 308
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    Here is the latest ever evolving detail of the guarantee.

    http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/ever-evolving-guarantee.html

  309. 309
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Well that depends on whether you have a fool as Treasurer…and Swan acts like a fool.

    He must’ve learnt from Costello!

    No 265

    Carbon is not pollution.

    You must’ve failed science.

  310. 310
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    Well that depends on whether you have a fool as Treasurer…and Swan acts like a fool.

    I would think that if the Libs offered Turnbull and Bishop in exchange for Swan, then they would be badly disappointed.

    I’m sure Labor would prefer to go with the team they’ve got.

  311. 311
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Oz!! While its true modelling takes weeks but the economic situation was known for sometime, as early as the last budget the Government talked about job loses.

    The Government knew the U.S. was heading towards recession and the U.K were not far behind for several months if it didn’t then it wasn’t paying attention.

    I for one called the U.S. in recession in March and I’m not an Economist but I could see the U.S. was heading towards a serious downturn.

    The package is as much about politics as it does about creating economic activity, if the Government were serious about economic activity why ignore the unemployed.

  312. 312
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Historically Glen is right for a Landslide sees people who normally don’t change do just that, we have seen this at state level when the ALP have won thumping margins only too see at the following election safe Liberal seats that have been reduced to marginal status or fell tot he ALP return to a more historically looking margin.

    I know there are exceptions to that comment but in general the Government starts to die the minute its takes office and that is why each election is progressively harder than the previous one to win.

  313. 313
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    299 Glen - Rudd brought out his 10b economic plan with no modelling shows how well the ALP are when it comes to economics!

    Can anyone guess what Glen’s criticism of Rudd would be had he taken this action?

  314. 314
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    While its true modelling takes weeks but the economic situation was known for sometime, as early as the last budget the Government talked about job loses.

    Yes it was clear that the current record low levels of unemployment were not sustainable. Predicting that is one thing. Predicting the global financial crisis? You seriously expected the Government to run modelling at the beginning of this year to see the impact of a 50% loss on the stockmarket, a 40% drop on the dollar, a global recession, China’s growth rate dropping 2%, the nationalisation of dozens of banks and companies around the world, dramatic interest rate cuts…

  315. 315
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    It’s just criticism for criticism sake. Nothing more, nothing less. You make a very good point Oz 314.

  316. 316
    MayoFeral
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Glen @ 299 -

    Rudd brought out his 10b economic plan with no modelling shows how well the ALP are when it comes to economics!

    Howard + Costello + $100-300b resources boom windfall = bugger all

    Howard + Murray-Darling + $10b + boozy lunch + back of envelope -input from any gov. dept (especially. Treasury) = ???????

    Turnbull + shonky ‘rainmaker’ = $10m down the dunny (despite warnings from scientists it was quackery)

  317. 317
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    A few years a go the IMF predicted post games China would slow!

    It is true that the Government could not have seen the extent at which the global economy would declinde and it could not have second guessed how Euorpean Governments would react.

    Regarding the drop in the share market using history as a gulde and knowing their was a very large hosuing bubble you could make a presumption that the stock market would fall somewhat. the level would be hard to guess and their is no sign that we have seen the bottom.

    To be fair to the Governmetn its hand has been forced somewhat by what the Americans and Europeans have done regarding the Banks

  318. 318
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    Oh yeah, and toss in unprecedented bank guarantees all around the world.

  319. 319
    dyno
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    HSO @ 304,

    Not so sure you’re right about Turnbull, but I think you’re right about Rudd – a lot of people do trust him and that’s part of the reason why his handling of a pretty incomprensible crisis is getting good marks from the voters.

    I wouldn’t say people mistrusted Turnbull per se, but they don’t know him all that well, and from what they do know, think he’s a bit of a smart arse. (Which is probably true, but the important question is whether he’s a useful smart arse …)

  320. 320
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    Here’s the latest from Tip not positioning himself for a tilt at the leadership. A couple of interesting points. But the Libs don’t address the issue of their bitterness toward the Reserve Bank for putting up interest rates during the last election.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/ken-henry-a-pawn-in-a-political-game/2008/10/28/1224956034413.html

  321. 321
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Dr Gruen has explained to the Senate Committee last week that the modeling will be done in time for the half year economic review due in a couple of weeks time.

    Senator JOYCE—Have we done any modelling on it now?
    Dr Gruen—We are in the process of putting together the forecasts that will go into the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook. We are doing as careful an assessment as possible of the package, along with everything else that is going on as a consequence of that, and what the outcome will be for the Australian economy. That is what we are doing.
    Senator JOYCE—It has been more than a few days since the decision was announced, so no modelling has happened yet?
    Dr Gruen—Formal modelling is part of the process of coming up with the MYEFO forecast, so that process is happening as we speak.
    Senator JOYCE—Dr Gruen, I am asking you a very specific question. Have you done modelling now? I do not want to know what the modelling says, but have you done modelling now with respect to how this package will operate? Has it or has it not been done? It is either a yes or no answer.
    Dr Gruen—We are in the process of updating the forecasts, and part of that updating is running formal economic models. We are in the process of doing it.

    Page 42 Dr Henry hansard

  322. 322
    Albert Ross
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Van Onselen bucketing Little Miss Echo on Latelne.

    Will Cossie run for deputy leader?

  323. 323
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE49N5VU20081028

    Iceland raises rates 6%

    Lateline ripping on Julie Bishop.

    The staffer who wrote it said he “Quickly knocked it together”. Not a ringing endorsement for the book.

    Apparently Julie Bishop rang up the NZ businessmen who she plagiarised and blamed it all on van Onselen and the publisher. The businessmen decided to take her town on that and dobbed her in to the media.

    Van Onselen also said that plenty of other chapters are unreferenced.

  324. 324
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    AR,

    Been there bought the t-shirt.

    Looking for a new experience.

  325. 325
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Chris Bowen and who’s the other dude? Never seen him but he’s going to get ripped by Mr. Cute as a button.

  326. 326
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Van Onselen bucketing Little Miss Echo on Latelne.

    This I must observe! I thought Van Onselen was a small l Liberal.

    Will Cossie run for deputy leader?

    No way, that would make it obvious that he is planning a comeback.

    The Liberals are lucky this wasn’t a parliamentary sitting week.

    Van Onselen also said that plenty of other chapters are unreferenced.

    Well that is kind of his fault. He didn’t do his job as editor properly.

  327. 327
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    GG,

    Now I understand it. “No” Public Servant has ever appeared before a Senate Estimates Committee prior to the Rudd Government taking office.

    Mmmm, not quite sure about that. Didn’t Ken Henry say that he had been appearing before these Committees for the “past 24 years”.

    What in the blazes is Costello on? Don’t most or all Department heads appear before Senate Estimate Hearings on a fairly regular basis.

    Does Costello take us all for forgetful, ignorant, fools?

  328. 328
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    scorpio,

    Not sure. Maybe he’s just turning into one of those codgers who remembers when the flag went up and the whistle was blown, yet survived to tell the tale. And, keep on telling it!

  329. 329
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    No 309

    ShowsOn, you’re not seriously suggesting that Carbon Dioxide is a pollutant? Carbon Dioxide is the reason why the Earth hasn’t descended into an endless ice age!

  330. 330
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    I think Turnbull’s position has been vindicated now that the PM has stepped into to offer support to investment funds.

  331. 331
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Carbon Dioxide is the reason why the Earth hasn’t descended into an endless ice age!

    I don’t think you understand what a “pollutant” is. Every chemical has its place in the natural biophysical balance. However they can be called “pollutants” if they are in inappropriate environments, or there is a significant portion of them which throws out the balance.

  332. 332
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    No 323

    Bishop’s imbecility is thoroughly unacceptable.

  333. 333
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Gnereic Person,

    Before this discussion descends in to a shite fight of significant proportions, just for the audience please advise us of your scientific qualifications and whether your comments are derived from the latest Liberal talking point sheet.

    Do you have any idea what your talking about?

  334. 334
    Andrew
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    GP whilst i give you credit for calling Bishop for what she is, you need to critically evaluate your hypothesis that Turnbull is vindicated by or driving what the govt is doing. Please read the newspoll economic managment and satisifaction figures again. Its only in Turbull’s and the MSM’s cheershquad’s minds that he is of any relevance and having impact at the moment

  335. 335
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    No 333

    GG, I have no desire or need to prove myself to you.

    Carbon Dioxide is necessary for biological life to exist on this planet. It’s a simple fact.

  336. 336
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    ShowsOn, you’re not seriously suggesting that Carbon Dioxide is a pollutant? Carbon Dioxide is the reason why the Earth hasn’t descended into an endless ice age!

    The relative PROPORTION of it is too high, that is what climate change is about G.P.

    just for the audience please advise us of your scientific qualifications

    Unlike G.P., I passed year 8 science.

  337. 337
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Carbon Dioxide is necessary for biological life to exist on this planet. It’s a simple fact.

    LOL! Who said it wasn’t!?

    It is the PROPORTION of CO2 relative to other gases that is the problem G.P. Come on, keep up!

  338. 338
    Albert Ross
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Who is more insufferable? Steve Ciobo or Christopher Pyne?

  339. 339
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Carbon Dioxide is necessary for biological life to exist on this planet. It’s a simple fact.

    And sulfuric acid is necessary for the creation of fertilisers. Point?

  340. 340
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    No 334

    Andrew, for the last few weeks all we’ve heard from people of your ilk is that Rudd’s decision was excellent and that Turnbull was wrong. But yet again, the Government is doing what Turnbull has been suggesting for some time.

    Obviously you might think he’s irrelevant, but Kevin Rudd seems perfectly happy to pilfer policy from the opposition as and when necessary and then claim credit for great economic management. I wonder who’s the real plagiarist? ;-)

  341. 341
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Ciobo’s voice doesn’t compare to Pyne’s but he trumps him in the name departmant.

  342. 342
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Just read a fascinating article by Stanley Fish in the NYTimes giving an appraisal of Obama & McCain’s campaigns.

    I see so many parallels to Rudd’s campaign last year and to some degree, I feel that Rudd is following the script in dealing with both the Opposition and the MSM.

    The latter two haven’t changed their modus operandi so if Rudd continues on the same course that brought him success so far, then there is every possibility it will continue to frustrate his opponents and his success will continue.

    I think Rudd is smart enough that if the strategy of his opponents changes, then Rudd will make suitable adjustments to his strategy to counter it. In which case, the Opposition are really in deep doo doo which ever way they go.

  343. 343
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    No 337

    ShowsOn, a higher proportion of CO2 accelerates plant growth.

  344. 344
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    But yet again, the Government is doing what Turnbull has been suggesting for some time.

    Please link me to Turnbull’s media release containing his policy that details that mortgage trusts and the like should become APRA regulated banks before receving a government guarantee.

    If you can’t do that there’s no point posting in response.

  345. 345
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    No 338

    Both are upstanding members of parliament.

  346. 346
    Albert Ross
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Method: we move GP’s Petrie dish to a bell jar. Then we pump Co2 into the bell jar.

    At what % of CO2 in the atmosphere in the bell jar will we hear a little voice from the dish admitting that the gas is a pollutant?

  347. 347
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    ShowsOn, a higher proportion of CO2 accelerates plant growth.

    I’m sure the planet would be applauding us then, if a shortage of plant growth was the issue.

  348. 348
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Bishop’s imbecility is thoroughly unacceptable.

    GP, you’re denigrating Glen’s favourite Liberal pollie I hope you know.

  349. 349
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    Who is more insufferable? Steve Ciobo or Christopher Pyne?

    Pyne, he represents the seat I live in.

    ShowsOn, a higher proportion of CO2 accelerates plant growth.

    So does adding manure G.P., So I suggest you print some of your posts and put them on your garden.

  350. 350
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    At what % of CO2 in the atmosphere in the bell jar will we hear a little voice from the dish admitting that the gas is a pollutant?

    He’ll be unconscious at 7%.

  351. 351
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    From the estimates Hansard – proof positive that Sen Abetz is the biggest tool in parliament:

    Senator ABETZ—We are in heated agreement, which is great. As of the election of the government, things got more and more difficult and more and more storm clouds were gathering. Yet it was during this time, on 27 June, that the secretary took five weeks leave, telling the Australian people—

    Senator Conroy—This is disgraceful.

    Senator ABETZ—that the economy was ‘in pretty good shape’, and for five weeks went off to look after 115 hairy-nosed wombats.

    Senator Conroy—This is a disgraceful reflection, which just shows that you have run out of substance with your questions.

    Senator ABETZ—I want to know how seriously we treated this issue.

    Senator Conroy—You should invite Senator Fifield, someone who is at least reasonably qualified to ask questions of the Treasury officials, to have a go. You should withdraw these insinuations that you are making at the moment. It is actually beneath you, Senator Abetz. You are a better person than this. I would terminate your line of questioning here.

    Senator ABETZ—It is a question that I think is of interest to the Australian people, given the gravity of the situation that we now know was developing even before the election of the new government. There was already a problem before November last year. We then proceeded month by month, with more and more storm clouds gathering, yet the Secretary of Treasury on 27 June says the economy ‘is in pretty good shape’, and goes off for five weeks to look after 115 hairy-nosed wombats. Is this the seriousness with which we are dealing with the issue?

    Senator Conroy—Senator Abetz, all I can do is give you advice: this line of questioning is beneath you.

    Senator ABETZ—Did the government agree to Dr Henry taking that five weeks leave?

    Senator Conroy—I am sure that the Treasurer approved Dr Henry’s leave, but I am happy to take it on notice to confirm it.

    Senator ABETZ—Despite all the storm clouds on the horizon?

    At his point Coonan comes in, no doubt out of embarrasment.

  352. 352
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    ShowsOn, a higher proportion of CO2 accelerates plant growth.

    So does chicken manure, your point?

  353. 353
    scorpio
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    I forgot the link to 342, sorry.

    http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/the-power-of-passive-campaigning/?em

    It’s really good reading.

  354. 354
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    GP,

    I thought they were reasonable questions.

    But, if you choose not to respond in a sensible way, then one can only assume you are no more or less than one of those Indian call centres selling an Aussie Holiday experience. Got the accent, got the words, but no idea what they are talking about.

  355. 355
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:21 pm | Permalink

    No 344

    Oz, last week Swan told people affected by the freeze on funds to go to Centrelink, this week he wants to guarantee them so long as they accept additional regulation. Turnbull has been demanding action for some time, and has argued that reducing the scope of the guarantee would have avoided the accelerated run on non-banks in the first place. Either way, Swan is looking like the bumbling fool he always was.

  356. 356
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    #355

    etc etc etc

    No media release?

    Then I hope you won’t continue to keep pushing the line that the Government is pilfering policy from Turnbull. He demanded “action” did he? And since “action” has been taken, it’s because of him? ROFL.

  357. 357
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:23 pm | Permalink

    No 351

    Yes, Mr Abetz’s questioning was ridiculous.

  358. 358
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:24 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Mr Abetz’s questioning was ridiculous.

    That’s cos ERICA is ridiculous!

  359. 359
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    No 354

    GG, everyone participating in this discussion is doing so on a largely anonymous basis. If you wish to debate scientific qualifications rather than the substance of my argument, then you’ve chosen the wrong forum.

  360. 360
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    If you wish to debate scientific qualifications rather than the substance of my argument, then you’ve chosen the wrong forum.

    But why should we believe your opinions on science? You think creationism should be taught in science classes. That’s utter nonsense.

  361. 361
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    If you wish to debate scientific qualifications rather than the substance of my argument

    Your argument lacks any substance, that’s your problem. You’re arguing against postulated science, backed up by theories, so one would expect some kind of scientific experience or data to support you. Since you’re lacking, on what basis do you make your claims?

  362. 362
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    No 358

    ShowsOn please do not waste our time with infantile references to our politicians.

  363. 363
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    355 GP, I fail to see what you are on about. If people have their accounts frozen and the value of the assets is not as high as it was recently then they could be eligible for Centrelink payments. What have you got against self funded retirees being able to pay their bills in times of economic instability?

  364. 364
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:28 pm | Permalink

    *Backed up by evidence, sorry.

  365. 365
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    ShowsOn please do not waste our time with infantile references to our politicians.

    OK Geriatric Pornographer, I’m sorry I hurt your fillings.

  366. 366
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Gerry Harvey is a crackpot.

    “What are Harvey Norman’s margins?”

    “BOOM! THE ECONOMY IS STUFFED!”

    “What are jobs numbers like?”

    “ITS ALMOST CHRISTMAS! WOOHOO!”

    “What do you think about the bank deposit guarantee?”

    “WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME? I SELL TV’S!”

  367. 367
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Gerry Harvey is a crackpot.

    Correct.

    So isn’t he publishing the sales figures of every Harvey Norman store each week? Has anyone seen them? Are they tanking?

  368. 368
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    GP,

    Is that you on the left and who is the silly old drunk you are propping up.

    http://www.vexnews.com/news/1210/exclusive-pics-liberal-front-bencher-tony-abbott-rocks-the-party-with-saturday-night-antics/

  369. 369
    Oz
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Yeah sales for the month to October 26th were down almost 4%.

  370. 370
    dyno
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Good to see the Govt has finally seen sense and started trying to do something about the managed funds’ situation.

    I thought they would eventually.

  371. 371
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    No 361

    Put it this way, had they called it “Carbon Emission Reduction Scheme”, I would have no problems.

  372. 372
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    Put it this way, had they called it “Carbon Emission Reduction Scheme”, I would have no problems.

    But you’d still insist that creationism is taught in science classes?

  373. 373
    steve
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    At least European markets have opened sharply higher tonight.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/business/29markets.html

  374. 374
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:52 pm | Permalink

    "Swan is looking like the bumbling fool he always was."
    "ShowsOn please do not waste our time with infantile references to our politicians."

    Which blogger said both of these things? Which blogger is a hypocrite?

  375. 375
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    No 371

    ShowsOn, I have already stated my position on creationism but as usual you continue to misrepresent it when you’ve run out of arguments.

    For the benefit of others: so long as children are taught accepted scientific principles, there is no reason why they cannot thereafter be exposed to alternative opinions.

  376. 376
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    No 373

    Calling Wayne Swan is a bumbling fool is not infantile, it is fact.

  377. 377
    Glen
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Hear Hear!

  378. 378
    Generic Person
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    On the other hand, ShowsOn referred to Mr Abetz as a woman which is not fact.

  379. 379
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    For the benefit of others: so long as children are taught accepted scientific principles, there is no reason why they cannot thereafter be exposed to alternative opinions.

    So that means you think Astrology should be taught in Astronomy class, and alchemy should be taught in chemistry classes.

    That is complete and utter nonsense. That is the type of irrational anti-intellectual rubbish that is killing your side of politics.

  380. 380
    ShowsOn
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    On the other hand, ShowsOn referred to Mr Abetz as a woman which is not fact.

    Erica Betz is not a woman, just a cross-dresser.

  381. 381
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    No GP it is your opinion. So it’s all right for you to do the unsubstantiated name calling but not other people. As I say, hypocrite.

  382. 382
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    Both GP and Glen are reading from the same Liberal discussion sheet as that Steve Ciobo on “Lateline” tonight. What page is it on?

  383. 383
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    Both GP and Glen are reading from the same Liberal discussion sheet as that Steve Ciobo on “Lateline” tonight. What page is it on?

    They struggle turning pages, and their concentration waivers quickly, so now they only get 1 double sided page.

  384. 384
    Glen
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    anytime u criticise someone for holding another view to yours by saying they are reading from a dicussion sheet shows you have lost the argument!

  385. 385
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:10 am | Permalink

    anytime u criticise someone for holding another view to yours by saying they are reading from a dicussion sheet shows you have lost the argument!

    Don’t attack me Glen! You should be attacking G.P., the right wing Young Liberal!

    You don’t want that extremist getting to the Senate ahead of you!

  386. 386
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    No 378

    ShowsOn, that is rubbish and you know it. I am not at all positing that accepted scientific principle be supplanted by alternative opinion.

    In history classes, I was exposed to the fact that people like David Irving denied that Hitler exterminated millions of jews. Does that mean I now hold similar holocaust-denying views? Of course not. Indeed, in science classes, I was also exposed to the fact that people used to think that the earth was flat and at the centre of the universe. Again, exposing students to this is not dangerous or hazardous to a child’s education so long as it is done so in a framework that primarily focuses on accepted principles.

  387. 387
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    No 384

    My views are not extreme ShowsOn. Your argumentative style similar to the despicable Senator Conroy who likens critics of his censorship scheme to kiddie fiddlers when he can’t win an argument. You label people extremists when you can’t win either.

  388. 388
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:17 am | Permalink

    383 – Hardly Glen. What it means is that there is no use debating someone that just spouts the party line all of the time.

  389. 389
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    Again, exposing students to this is not dangerous or hazardous to a child’s education so long as it is done so in a framework that primarily focuses on accepted principles.

    You can’t do this with evolution. It always gets hijacked by Liberal religious nut-jobs who don’t understand it, and just want another excuse to get religion taught in public schools.

  390. 390
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    GP – you were, and still sometimes show us, the most rampant name caller and often resorted to personal abuse. That was your argument style. I’ll give you credit for cleaning up your act but you really have some gaul criticising someone else for their harsh style.

  391. 391
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    “PV is undemocratic and we should have still had 1PP voting.”

    Glen @ 297 really needs to learn his history. It was the conservatives that moved from first past the post, to preferential, so the conservative vote would not split between the Libs/Nats (say 30/30 each), allowing Labor to win on say 40.

    But conservatives have never been much for Australian political history.

  392. 392
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    There was a nice little exchange in Question time at the Cairns Regional Parliament today after the Liberal National Party put a Freedom of Information request to the Treasurer to find out their own opposition policy costings.

    When we put into the parliament three weeks ago $64.5 billion of thought bubbles, dog whistles and commitments from the opposition and said, ‘Name which ones you support. Name which ones are actually going to be part of your platform,’ what was the answer?

    Mr Springborg:
    I am very happy to answer that question.

    Mr SPEAKER:
    Order! Leader of the Opposition!

    Mr FRASER:
    You have had three weeks to answer it.

    Mr Springborg
    interjected.

    Mr FRASER:
    And what you did. So unable to provide a costing for a policy--

    Mr SPEAKER:
    Leader of the Opposition, that is the second time you have done that today. I think I am giving you a pretty fair go here. I would ask you to desist from your behaviour. I call the Treasurer.

    Mr FRASER:
    So unable to provide the people with a costing for any of those policies, those opposite FOI-ed my office to ask what costings I had done on their policies. This would have to be the laziest opposition in the history of Queensland. They promised us a policy. What did they release? A brochure.

  393. 393
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    No 388

    Weak argument with no basis in reality. Evolution is the accepted scientific theory. Teacher has class on evolution, and as a short aside mentions that theological opinion subscribes to creationist/intelligent design, but concludes that this is not accepted science. What is the big deal? How is that anti-intellectual? Why is that I am the only one that is approaching this rationally rather than hysterically?

  394. 394
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    What is the big deal? How is that anti-intellectual? Why is that I am the only one that is approaching this rationally rather than hysterically

    Because you’ve had a hysterectomy?

  395. 395
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Why is that I am the only one that is approaching this rationally rather than hysterically?

    Everyone else got over that rubbish by eighth grade.

  396. 396
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    No 391

    Um, I fail to see the significance of that piece of blather from Mr Fraser. Had the Opposition not submitted their policies for costing, they’d be criticised for having uncosted promises. Now he’s calling them lazy for even bothering. You can’t have it both ways Mr Fraser. Perhaps you should be more focussed on how to avoid a repeat of Dr Death in your health system.

  397. 397
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    No 393

    Thanks for admitting that you have no argument.

  398. 398
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    No 394

    “Everyone” is not an atheist.

  399. 399
    scorpio
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:38 am | Permalink

    and as a short aside mentions that theological opinion subscribes to creationist/intelligent design, but concludes that this is not accepted science.

    GP, any parent that wants their child to be taught that alternative only has to take them along to sunday school which is the appropriate venue for such things.

    I would be exceedingly upset if any of my children were placed in that position in a public school. They all had the opportunity to be exposed to that on Sundays at church.

  400. 400
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    GP, they didn’t submit their policies for costing. Fraser added up the cost of the waffle the Liberal National Party have promised so far and it came to $Billion 64.5 with a year to go before the next election. They were asked which promises they would keep and had no idea so FOI’d Fraser in the hope that the Treasurer could solve their overspending dilemma.

    The Liberal National Party have no coherent policies yet just expensive barrels of pork.

  401. 401
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    No 398

    Fair enough. But what “position” would your children be in? Given my earlier example, they would still come away with the fact that creationism is not accepted science, but nevertheless exists as an alternative school of thought.

  402. 402
    Glen
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    bob1234 i know Hughes did that and i also know he made voting complusory all bad moves. Just because the tories do something doesnt mean i automatically like it!

  403. 403
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    No 399

    The Labor Party hires doctors that kill patients. We can all play this silly game.

  404. 404
    scorpio
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    Oh, Oh, play school is on. Time for bed.

  405. 405
    Yes We Can!
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Mr Glen and Mr Generic Person, Your Most Loved Person (Menzies) is having a TV show
    dedicated to 50% of himself on ABC TV on Thursday Night.

  406. 406
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    Good column by Janet:

    Just as deceptive are the solutions coming out of Europe this past week. Clearly, European opponents of free markets are excited. For them, the crisis and Washington’s bailout of US banks and businesses are evidence that American capitalism is dead. The president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, says Europe should lead the way because we need a new global financial order.

    Lapping up the limelight, Sarkozy described the crisis as a great opportunity as he touted his idea for Europeans to form their own sovereign wealth fund to defend domestic companies from marauding foreigners. It’s just the latest, most barefaced attempt to use the turmoil as an excuse to restore European statism as official policy.

    “I don’t want European citizens to wake up in several months and find European companies belonging to non-European capital which bought (them) at the share price’s lowest point,” he told the European Parliament a week ago. Under Europe’s new world order as laid down by Sarkozy, the spirit of fraternite (let alone liberte and egalite) does not extend to foreigners.

    Far from this being a new world order, it is more a case of old-fashioned anti-capitalist and anti-foreigner sentiment. And as The Wall Street Journal Europe reported on Monday, senior Chinese officials appear to have allied China with Europe’s call for more regulation. It’s worth raising an eyebrow when communists line up with Europe.

    http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/europe_worse_off_than_the_us/

  407. 407
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    Glen @ 402

    What would you prefer then? For first past the post to have remained when the Country Party hit the scene? For the conservative vote to be divided, and Labor to win almost every election?

    Yes, i’m sure you’d have MUCH preferred that!

    A nice bit of history at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_by-election,_1918

  408. 408
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:59 am | Permalink

    Seems like Tip still has aspirations to run the country…

    THE Reserve Bank made a mistake when it lifted interest rates during the 2007 election campaign, former treasurer Peter Costello said yesterday. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24567630-662,00.html

    FORMER federal treasurer Peter Costello says the world economic crisis is nearing the bottom of its plunge http://www.theage.com.au/national/crisis-close-to-bottom-costello-20081028-5akw.html

    So now Costello is second-guessing the independence of the reserve bank, and is looking in to his crystal ball and saying the world economic crisis is nearing the bottom. How would he know? All he did was swing in his hammock for 11 and a half years.

  409. 409
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:03 am | Permalink

    Yes We Can! @ 405

    I still don’t get why these ‘New Right’ Howardites still love Menzies. He had economic socialist tendancies. He was to the economic left of Whitlam, Hawke/Keating, and Rudd.

    But perhaps they just don’t understand the mixed messages that Liberal MPs put out… the whole ‘Howard’ was the best Prime Minister Australia ever had, only possibly second to Menzies.

    It’s the way of keeping oldschool Liberals onside whilst spouting their love of Howardism.

  410. 410
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:11 am | Permalink

    So Costello reckons he knows better than the rest of the world of where the bottom is? Truth is he is like the guy at the pub who reckons the same because it has fallen so much already so it should start to come back up surely.

    Costello knew and knows very little about finance and ecnomics and certainly is know economist so I wonder what he is basing his decisions on? Nothing of course. His prediction was probably made a hundred times during the Great Depression.

    The important question for Costello to answer is why he wasted $300 bn of Australia’s surpluses and does he think he should make an apology to the Australian people for wasting a decade of prosperity and throwing away the future as Howard’s coward?

  411. 411
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:01 am | Permalink

    Hear hear Thomas @ 410

    The wasted decade.

  412. 412
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    TP we can all be heroes and tip a 10% rise in the Australian Sharemarket today. If it wasn’t for a carping destructive opposition, it would probably be 15%.

    http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/markets/overview/overview.asp

  413. 413
    dyno
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    steve,
    More importantly, the Liberal Party is the primary cause of cancer.

    You forgot to mention that.

  414. 414
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    “If it wasn’t for a carping destructive opposition, it would probably be 15%.”

    Does anyone actually swallow this type of garbage?

  415. 415
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    It may well be silliness ltep and dyno but no sillier than Tip Costello predicting the bottom of the world downturn by looking at the tea leaves.

  416. 416
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    I don’t see why anyone would be interested in what some random backbench member had to say.

  417. 417
    MayoFeral
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    FORMER federal treasurer Peter Costello says the world economic crisis is nearing the bottom of its plunge

    While I hope he’s right, history suggests we won’t see the worst of it for another 2 or 3 years. The worst years of the Great Depression were 1932 and 1933. It took nearly 4 years for the 1987 crash to reach bottom in the 1991-2 ‘recession we had to have’ Much the same happened after the 1973 ‘oil shock’ too.

  418. 418
    Muskiemp
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    bob1234 @ 408

    quote]So now Costello is second-guessing the independence of the reserve bank, and is looking in to his crystal ball and saying the world economic crisis is nearing the bottom. How would he know? All he did was swing in his hammock for 11 and a half years.[/quote

    Someone wrote it on a piece of paper and handed it to him to memories

  419. 419
    Boerwar
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Itep @ 416, hang on. This is not your ordinary random backbencher.

    Having wandered around in the desert for what must seem an eternity, with even his lost tribe having deserted him, Tip the Prophet is wetting himself with the financial crisis: Is this the oasis in my desert? Have the chips finally fallen in my favour? Is this the burning bush? Is this the mountain top? Or, hang on, is this the bottom of mountain? Now, where is that damned tablet? Let’s see $10 billion, less $2,500 billion, adds up to….Look at me, everybody! Look at me! Want me, need me! Look at meeeeee….

  420. 420
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    How does Tip “know” this? It was a vision that came to him in a dream as he lay slumbering in the hammock.

  421. 421
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    More carping, more whinging from the Opposition.

    Opposition small business spokesman Steven Ciobo told Lateline the Government's latest move tries to cover up the mistakes it made when announcing the deposit guarantee.

    "We have policy pinball from this Government," he said.

    "We've got a very inexperienced treasurer in the form of Wayne Swan who's at the paddles trying desperately to keep the ball in play as it bounces off one token decision to another."

    "I don't understand why it is that the Government cannot accept that they have taken a problem and made it worse, rather than fixed it.

    "This is a classic example of a Government that is lurching from one crisis to the next, trying to play catch-up and solve these problems."

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/29/2403969.htm

  422. 422
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:04 am | Permalink

    Steve my first reaction when I heard that “story” on NewsRadio this morning was “very inexperienced Treasurer?” Mr Swan has almost a year’s more experience than his Liberal shadow – the serial plagiarist.

    Every day he accrues more experience, during the most challenging conditions any treasurer in living memory has ever had the opportunity to learn from.

  423. 423
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Cuppa what got me is where are Steven Ciobo’s alternative solutions?

  424. 424
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    As a Liberal small business spokesman he’d probably have none, unless SerfChoices could be woven into it somehow.

  425. 425
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    It’s all very nice to launch vague attacks on the performance of the government but surely his job is to spell out what the Opposition would do in these difficult circumstances, so far the opposition just is not even having a swing at that.

    Carping without offering a workable alternative position is not the way from opposition to government.

  426. 426
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    FFS all this whining at one another and you missed another poll.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll29oct.pdf

    Economy and health top issues. Labor flogging Coalition in best managers in all of them except economy, and Coalition flogging Labor in national security.

    The Greens are the highest they’ve been with the environment and climate change, with a quarter of people thinking they’re best to handle to the issues.

  427. 427
    Socrates
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    I thought the government’s response to mortgage trusts today (we can help them become banks) was very good. It politely points out why they won’t cave in to their demands but still shows they are willing to help.

  428. 428
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    I read Shanahan’s blurb on that earlier, Oz.

  429. 429
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    It appears that Brendan Nelson’s chapter in the new book about the Libs being a bunch of lost cases is essentially a reworked version of an article written by his former advisor, GP’s old friend in the Young Libs, Tom Switzer.

  430. 430
    Glen
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    In the 1918 Swan by-election the turnout was low given it was a by-election just 63% if it were a federal election about 70% would have voted as was the norm back then and i would have thought given the 2 conservative parties were popular back then for that seat they’d have won.

    I dont have an issue with that result. All people got one vote and the ALP won because they won the most.

  431. 431
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    All this plagiarism and incestuous cannibalism. The last time the Liberals had an original idea was years ago: SerfChoices. And even that wasn’t original, harking back to the centuries-ago era of Master and Servant employment “standards”.

  432. 432
    Socrates
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    If the government wants to go on the attack about these funds (not really desirable in terms of market confidence but still) they coudl point out the motives of teh critics. The opposition wants to make itself relevant. The fudn managers want to get a guarantee or keep their customers because the funds fees (and hence their salaries) are linked to the volume of deposits. economically it makes little difference if there is an outflow from them to banks and the banks still lend for the economy to function. But it hurts the fund managers. Trouble is lots of investment vehicles have taken a hit; there is nothing special about mortgage funds that they should be protected.

  433. 433
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Reading an attack piece on the ABC in the Adelaide Advertiser today I had to laugh at this:

    “Last week on Lateline, the ABC demonstrated its isolation from reality when it referred to the political editor of The Australian, Dennis Shanahan, as a “conservative” commentator. Shanahan is an experienced, insightful journalist whose character and political instincts could be described as mainstream.”

    Oh come on… is this person serious?

  434. 434
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Wtf.

    $10 says Shanahan wrote that under a pseudonym.

  435. 435
    Socrates
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    LTEP
    I think in that context “mainstream” means “common in News limited editor’s rooms”. Both Shanahan and the Advertiser should look up the meaning of “self-referrential falacy”.

  436. 436
    Socrates
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    There are two areas where I can see the financia crisis having an impact on Australia in the short term:

    First, NY Times reports that GM adn Chrysler are seeking government cash to assist a merger. If as reported GM is out of cash, then Holden in Oz will have trouble scraping up capital to invest in (badly needed) more economical models:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/business/28auto.html?em

    Second, I haven’t heard anything on Gunns in a while. I thought their pulp mill funding was due soon? They have no chance of getting it at present and. as I suggested in earlier posts, their claims that a Swedish forester would supply them $ were highly questionable. I have never seen any confirmation of them from the alleged partners. So there is a silver lining in every financial cloud – Gunn’s stupid pulp mill is dead :)

  437. 437
    Jewelled Cats
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    “Lenore Taylor, National correspondent | October 29, 2008
    MALCOLM Turnbull moved part of his fortune out of a property fund just days before redemptions from the fund were frozen as investors rushed for the protection of the Rudd Government’s bank deposit guarantee.”
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24569270-5013404,00.html

    Interesting!

  438. 438
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    All politicians should have to sell all their shareholdings once taking office or put them in the hands of some independent body.

  439. 439
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    I agree Oz. If they don’t they’re more than free to not enter parliament.

  440. 440
    Gusface
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    JC
    from the article you linked to
    “Yesterday, officials held talks with fund managers and regulators on ways to unlock the $25billion of frozen investment funds, including property trusts, that are threatening the retirement savings of 60,000 Australians. ”

    so the hooha is about 60,000 aussies,who have dosh in investment funds.

    not exactly life or death or economic chaos IMO

  441. 441
    enjaybee
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Ltep @ 433. That article was written by Chris Kenny a former adviser to Lord Downer and one of the most conservative (if not the most) journos in Adelaide. He is in the same class as Andrew Bolt.

  442. 442
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Re the Albrechtson column quoted by GP at the top of the page. After a fortnight of surprisingly good sense, JA has lapsed back into primitivism. She laments the return of European statism. One can only say that European statism is looking quite good at the moment. I think we’ve had our little experiment with radical deregulationism, and look where it’s got us. There has to be a moment, GP, when beautiful theories hit the brick wall of empirical verification, or in this case falsification. That moment is now. It will be a loooong time before governments and electorates again listen to the siren song of economic libertarianism, so conservatives are going to have to get to grips with that if they want to win elections in the next decade or so.

  443. 443
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Glen, the point is that historically, Labor has usually gained a higher vote than the major conservative party, only to be overtaken by Country/Nat preferences. If first past the post was kept, Labor would have won most elections.

  444. 444
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/newspoll29oct.pdf

    And this is the Howard/Costello legacy. Focus on the economy at the expense of everything else. To hell with health/education/everything else!

  445. 445
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and of course ‘the boom years, wasted’.

  446. 446
    Helen2
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Must be ‘red herring day’ – after the article about Mr Turnbull’s investments, we now have “Don’t frighten true love away – Turnbull”.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24570066-12377,00.html

    What the?

    (Haven’t tried posting with link before. If it doesn’t work, my apologies, and could someone please advise how to do it correctly – thank yoy)

  447. 447
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    You just copy and paste the link! Nothing to be scared of.

    Good to see that in between talking down the economy Turnbull has time to give love advice.

  448. 448
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Yet another scandal for the bumbling fool, Nathan Rees:

    THE office of the Premier, Nathan Rees, has intervened to have a female staff member removed from the office of the assistant health minister Tony Stewart after allegations of inappropriate behaviour were made against him.

    The Herald understands the woman, Tina Sanger, alleges the minister verbally abused her and touched her leg at a Garvan Institute dinner after he was upset at the quality of the speech he gave at the dinner.

    It is understood the allegation centres on Mr Stewart holding her leg so that she could not move from her seat at the dinner as he allegedly verbally abused her.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rees-minister-in-legtouching-scandal/2008/10/29/1224956079753.html

  449. 449
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Yep, that’s Rees’ fault all right. That makes him a bungler. Just one question though, how?

  450. 450
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    This is going to be a really painful couple of years for Labor.

    It seems like it’s almost daily that there’s some kind of issue they have to deal with. The perception that they’re rotten to core is so strong that it doesn’t matter who’s fault it actually is.

  451. 451
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    It’s just embarassing. It’s reached the point where no proof even needs to be offered and most people will believe it. This perception won’t go away until they’ve been in Opposition for a few years.

  452. 452
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    No 451

    They deserve 20 years in the wilderness.

  453. 453
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    NSW Labor is bad. We can all agree on that. Pity we can’t all agree that the federal Liberals are bad too.

  454. 454
    Dario
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Isn’t there a NSW thread?

  455. 455
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    However the LNP do not deserve 20 years in Government. They’re pathetic, and the worst part is that they’re going to get in on the back of dissatisfaction with public transport, education, health and infrastructure when they have absolutely no policies except privatisation, which the public rejected.

    When the Coalition wins Labor should use it as an excuse to clear out the factional warlods, refresh their lineup, come up with a cohesive set of policies and then rip into them.

    If they fail to do at least the first two of those things they are a joke and deserve to be thrown out of the country. The people of NSW do not want, nor do they deserve, Eddie Obeid and Joe Tripodi running the state.

  456. 456
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    Good point, #454.

    Judging by who kicked off the conversation, diverting attention to the inept State government must be the strategy for the week.

  457. 457
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Hardly anyone reads the NSW thread – mainly because the Laborites are so embarrassed by the Rees government that they’d rather keep it “out of sight, out of mind”.

  458. 458
    evan14
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Rees seems like a good bloke, the problem is that the N.S.W cabinet is still full of the same deadwood/hacks, Tony Stewart a good example of the lack of talent in the government.

  459. 459
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if GP would be so ready to talk about a NSW Liberal government facing the same problems as the present government. Me thinks not.

  460. 460
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Which problems are they Gary Bruce?

  461. 461
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    evan14, Rees seems like a conman to me!

  462. 462
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    I absolutely have no time for the NSW government but blaming Rees for what a minister has supposed to have done to a woman is just plain silly. That doesn’t make Ress a bumbling fool. Other things may but not that. That was my point.

  463. 463
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    No 459

    GB, the Howard Government was in for a roughly similar amount of time and never descended into the bilious sleaze that characterises the NSW government.

  464. 464
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Let’s see now. After revelations of Buswell’s chair-sniffing (and other harassment-type behaviour) surfaced, the WA Liberals actually promoted the guy – to leader no less. Then the federal Liberal leader came out and said he had his full support.

    I doubt NSW Labor will be promoting this guy, let alone to leadership.

  465. 465
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    I tale it ltep you haven’t been reading the papers re the NSW government?

  466. 466
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    465 – make that “take”.

  467. 467
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Which problems are they Gary Bruce?

    Brogden! Remember his antics?

    Anyway, when the Coalition wins public transport, schools, hospitals, planning regulations, developer donations, every other area of government responsibility are still going to be a complete mess.

  468. 468
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    No 464

    Cuppa, of course everyone accepts Mr Buswell’s actions were idiotic.

  469. 469
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    No 467

    Oz, every area of government responsibility in NSW is already a complete mess. A Liberal administration could not possibly be worse. Indeed, anything would be better than the current rabble.

  470. 470
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    A Liberal administration could not possibly be worse. Indeed, anything would be better than the current rabble.

    They haven’t exactly outlined how they are going to be better. They’re going to slide in due to the general level of hate towards the government but they haven’t stipulated how they’re going to fix transport and congestion, they haven’t told us how they’re going to fix education, they haven’t told us how they’re going to fix hospitals, they haven’t told us how they’re going to re-democratise unpopular planning laws…

  471. 471
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    The problem facing the next NSW Liberal government will be one of meeting the expectations the voters will place on them. The Libs will go into the election promising to fix every ill and if expectations are not met the let down will be show up in future polls.

  472. 472
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    No 470

    Oz, Rudd’s plans were equally blithe beyond his attractive sound bites.

  473. 473
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Oz, Rudd’s plans were equally blithe beyond his attractive sound bites.

    I don’t know what relevance that has, other than to suggest that the Liberal’s will win. Something I’m not doubting. However it’s good of you to accept they have no actual policies and I wouldn’t go as far as to call O’Farrell mumbling about something a “soundbite”.

  474. 474
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    @472 GP

    “Rudd’s plans were equally blithe beyond his attractive sound bites.”

    More of the same not being able to accept they lost the election fairly and squarely with inferior policies and inferior leadership.

  475. 475
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    No 474

    bob1234, you’re the only one under the delusion that Liberals cannot accept the election loss.

    We lost the election. All I’m saying is that of course an incumbent can point to deficiencies in policy details because they have access to the entire public service to devise policy. The opposition does not have the same access. And even if they did have very detailed policy, they run the risk of it being pilfered by the government if its released long before an election.

  476. 476
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    I’d expect the Libs to get two terms in NSW. Here in Vic Kennett got in with a massive landslide after a disasterous ending to what was a good government for the first 8 years. There was no doubt that Kirner had to go and I helped her on her way, but I digress.
    Kennett lasted 7 years.
    NSW is a Labor state and will revert back to one in a relatively short time.

  477. 477
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    GP @ 475

    “bob1234, you’re the only one under the delusion that Liberals cannot accept the federal election loss.”

    That’s so hilarious I even forgot to laugh.

  478. 478
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Generic Person at 468 wrote:

    of course everyone accepts Mr Buswell’s actions were idiotic

    So in full knowledge of his actions (and presumably accepting them as idiotic), the WA Liberals still chose him as leader.

    WAToday.com.au, 27 June 2008:

    Liberal leader Troy Buswell ... survived a recent leadership spill after admitting to sniffing a staffer's chair and snapping another woman's bra.

    http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/wa-liberals-heading-for-annihilation-analyst-20080627-2xzq.html

    That was in June. In May 2008 stories of his grabbing an MP’s testicles were in the headlines
    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23710071-2,00.html

    And they still wanted him as leader.

  479. 479
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Gary Bruce, I don’t read newspapers. Although I’m firmly of the opinion Labor could do well with time in opposition in NSW I personally would not vote Liberal as they, at the moment, represent many ideas I strongly oppose.

    To back you up on your claim NSW is a Labor state, in the past 65+ years, the ALP has been in Government in NSW for 48 of them.

  480. 480
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Gary Bruce, I don’t read newspapers. Although I’m firmly of the opinion Labor could do well with time in opposition in NSW I personally would not vote Liberal as they, at the moment, represent many ideas I strongly oppose.

    That’s exactly the point. A lot of people feel that way but a lot of people are going to vote Liberal anyway because they see things as seriously stuffed up and 13 years is a long time.

    There’s going to a significant swing to The Greens as well, and unless something drastic happens to boost Labor, they’re going to pick up Balmain, Marrickville and maybe Heffron.

  481. 481
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    No 478

    Kevin Rudd attended scores strip club and yet the ALP still wanted him to be leader.

  482. 482
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Attending a strip club is hardly the scandal of the century.

  483. 483
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    The owner of New York strip club Scores says Opposition Leader Kevin Rudd did not even stay long enough to finish his beer and urged his companions to leave during a brief boozy visit four years ago.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/21/2010489.htm

  484. 484
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    A strip club? You’re still going on about that? It boosted his popularity, many men have done it!

    As for quokkas, bras, and chairs, that’s a whole other ball game.

    But thanks for your admission that you think they are all of the same level. It only reveals more about yourself.

  485. 485
    Gusface
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    GP
    tawdry,tacky and totally irrelevant
    ……just another day at fib HQ

  486. 486
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    Hardly anyone reads the NSW thread - mainly because the Laborites are so embarrassed by the Rees government that they’d rather keep it “out of sight, out of mind”.

    I scanned the latest US election thread GP and noticed there was one noticeable absence. Tell me, is it that you don’t follow US politics or is it that you are so embarrassed by the Bush/McCain fiasco that you’d rather keep it “out of sight, out of mind”?

  487. 487
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    6 May 2008:

    "... when I got back I walked into the room to pick up my notepad from the desk and Buswell started grabbing the chairs going 'Aahww, which one did you sit in? I'll be able to tell,' " she said.

    "And then he picked them up and started sniffing them and groaning and making sexually satisfying noises. I went: 'You're sick, knock it off', and grabbed my staff and walked out, but he didn't pay attention to a word I said."

    June 2008, Buswell survives a leadership spill.

  488. 488
    Glen
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    I’ll be voting for Doyle in the Melbourne Council elections coming up in November.
    I hope William has a thread for it.

  489. 489
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    GB @ 486

    Going by his Republican image, definately a case of embarrassment of the Republican ticket. Can’t say I blame him, their 2008 ticket is a shocker. An erratic 71yo, ready to keel over and be replaced by a ditsy redneck woman with no idea about anything.

  490. 490
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Buswell was already leader when the chair-sniffing story broke. There was no incident with a quokka.

  491. 491
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    You betcha!

  492. 492
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Buswell was already leader when the chair-sniffing story broke.

    There was a leadership spill post-ballot.

    Anyway, is actual treasurer not a promotion over opposition leader?

  493. 493
    Gusface
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    william

    I take it you have spoken to the quokka?

    Is there a book coming out or was he/she paid off?
    8)

  494. 494
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    I dunno why I keep reading The Australia. It’s pathetic.

    MALCOLM Turnbull has attacked Kevin Rudd's thesis that extreme capitalism and greed are to blame for the financial crisis, arguing bad regulation rather than too little was to blame.

    It appears George Bush and now Malcolm Turnbull are the only people left defending free markets.

    There are 14 paragraphs in that article and only 3 sentences are not direct quotes from Turnbull.

  495. 495
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Woaaaaah I missed this:

    ““The lesson there of course is not more regulation but less.”

    Is he joking? How can he advocate a bank deposit guarantee, extended to market-based institutions and say “Less regulation is the answer”?

  496. 496
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    He was not promoted from Opposition Leader to Treasurer.

  497. 497
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    494 Oz, you know what the answer is and most people know it.

  498. 498
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    He was not promoted from Opposition Leader to Treasurer.

    Would you call Treasurer a step up from Opposition leader? If yes, then whether it’s a “promotion” or not is semantics. He was rewarded by the Liberal Party with the respected position of Treasurer of WA after the scandal.

    GB I seriously do not know the answer. It’s an addiction.

  499. 499
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Unlike Americans, Australians don’t have an aversion to regulation if it helps their cause. I think Turnbull is heading down the wrong track on this.

  500. 500
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/wa-liberals-heading-for-annihilation-analyst-20080627-2xzq.html

    William, it is reported that Buswell “survived a leadership spill”. I take it to mean the leadership was declared open (”spilled”), with the outcome being that they elected to keep him in the position. They had the chance, after stories of his testicle-grabbing, chair-sniffing and bra-snapping had come to light, to demote or even dump him, but chose him to lead, continue leading.

  501. 501
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    No 494

    That’s funny. Lindsay Tanner said the same thing:

    Ahead lie two further critical tests for the Rudd Government. The first is judging how far to shift its policies towards a new ideology of regulation. Tanner, having slammed the failures of right-wing conservatism, argues that Labor governments must now prove they are the true parties of economic responsibility.

    Asked about the causes of the crisis, he told The Australian yesterday: "The problem in the United States was due to inadequate regulation, not insufficient regulation. It would be a mistake to think increasing the quantity of regulation is a solution. This is about the quality of regulation."

    This is bad news for the noisy prophets declaring a new age of government intervention and regulation in Australia. Tanner dismissed this notion outright. "Australia's regulatory arrangements are very robust," he said. "While it is appropriate to scrutinise our regulations, there is no case for returning to the regulatory arrangements of the past. We must be careful to avoid knee-jerk reactions. Australia's regulatory regime is very strong and has the support of both major parties."

    Care to retract that, Oz?

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24567565-7583,00.html

  502. 502
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    Tanner’s not calling for “less regulation”, unlike Turnbull.

    On top of that, no one has explained the hypocrisy in supporting increased intervention in banking and financial areas and saying “we need less regulation”.

  503. 503
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    No 486

    I don’t really follow US politics in great detail and even on the odd occasion that I do, it’s boring and repetitive. Bring on polling day.

  504. 504
    Dario
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    If Turnbull has such a problem with over regulation, will he be proposing the abolishment of all the reams of extra Tax laws etc that the Libs brought in during their last period in office?

  505. 505
    scorpio
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    MALCOLM Turnbull moved part of his fortune out of a property fund just days before redemptions from the fund were frozen

    I’ve already commented previously that it was more than a good bet that Turnbull had a good bit of his money in one of these funds.

    I also said that it was more than probable that there are a number of other Libs with similar investments.

    Turnbull probably didn’t warn them when he made his withdrawal and is now trying to help his colleagues to be able to get their money out before their Funds go belly-up.

  506. 506
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    No 502

    Oz, Tanner is the Minister for Deregulation. Stop lying to yourself and others.

  507. 507
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    No 505

    Come on scorpio, this is hardly driven by self-interest. When you have 30 billion in savings frozen, a lot of people are going to be affected.

  508. 508
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull has ALWAYS been driven by self-interest. As Kerry O’Brien said,

    “Four years in to parliament, and you’re now leader of the Liberal Party. What took you so long?”

  509. 509
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Here’s an (often said) sobering thought.

    The next Liberal Party (or whatever name they call themselves by then) is not yet in parliament.

  510. 510
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    *forgot ‘Prime Minister’ after the ().

  511. 511
    Inner Westie
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    “I don’t really follow US politics in great detail and even on the odd occasion that I do, it’s boring and repetitive.”

    Especially when your side is losing and about to be routed!

    (To be honest, I feel slightly the same way about Italian politics.)

  512. 512
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    No 511

    LOL Italian politics is farcical. Even as someone of Italian heritage, I can’t be bothered with it….:D

  513. 513
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    Ah, he’s the minister for “Business deregulation”!

    Means he can regulate financial institutions all he likes.

    Anyway, the Liberals can’t take credit for APRA and advocate a policy (If it can be called a policy) of government intervention and at the same time say “We need less regulation”.

  514. 514
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    No 513

    Financial institutions are also businesses Oz. Just admit that you’re wrong and move along.

  515. 515
    J-D
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Bob @ 509 and 510

    I remember people saying before 1996 ‘the next Liberal Prime Minister is not yet in Parliament’.

    It is possible that it’s true this time, but if so it will be the first time: not only was Howard already in Parliament in 1983, but Fraser was already in Parliament in 1972, Menzies was already in Parliament in 1941, and so on as you work backwards.

  516. 516
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    GP @ 514

    Cease it. The deregulation of business practice as a whole, and the deregulation of financial markets are quite different.

  517. 517
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Financial institutions are also businesses Oz.

    I suggest you read the Department’s agenda. In doing so, you’ll realise there’s no clash between what it advocates and intervening in financial sectors.

    You do understand that your line of argument applies to Turnbull as well, with greater emphasis? Who has actively called for less regulation since the crisis began, something the Rudd government hasn’t done.

  518. 518
    bob1234
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    JD @ 515

    It will happen. Turnbull and Nelson are duds, Costello has burnt too many bridges.

  519. 519
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Yes, but there may be liberal backbenchers who are not in our view at the moment that could potentially become PM. I certainly don’t see it being any of the current fronch bench.

    Perhaps it can be Julie Bishop, reading from someone elses’ script.

  520. 520
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24569996-601,00.html

    RETIREES will be granted powers to access emergency funds in frozen cash management accounts on limited hardsip grounds under proposals being finalised by the industry and regulators.

    Problem solved. I eagerly await the next “issue” pensioners come up with as an excuse to criticise the government.

  521. 521
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps it can be Julie Bishop, reading from someone elses’ script.

    LOL, good one ltep.

  522. 522
    dave
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    The public will not vote for allbull – just watch future polls. As they worsen the same pressure to dump allbull will mount as it did with brenda.

    tip is sitting there praying this will happen and that his star will start to shine again.
    Ha :)

    and of course people skills – the mad monk still dreams of the lodge. Double Haha ! :)

  523. 523
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Costello (joke) claims Turnbull is …

    economically irresponsible and insinuating he was behind the leaking of cabinet details to save his seat of Wentworth at last year's election

    <Sydney Morning Herald, 12 September 2008

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/09/11/1220857739971.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

  524. 524
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Check it out, Malcolm has a Flickr:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/malcolmturnbull/

    Malcolm at Bing Lee! Malcolm at Charcoal Chicken! Where will he go next?! KFC? Coles?!?!?

  525. 525
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    I suppose Julie Bishop would allow the next Prime Minister to be someone who isn’t in parliament yet, whoever her chief of staff is at the time.

  526. 526
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Malcolm at Bing Lee! Malcolm at Charcoal Chicken! Where will he go next?! KFC? Coles?!?!?

    To the local Maserati dealership? to assure them the Liberals are defending the right of Maserati drivers to not pay additional luxury car tax.

  527. 527
    dave
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Julie Bishop is losing any credibility she might have had. Another incident involving plagiarism as she might as well go back to being a lawyer.

    Damaged goods is the tag looming large. She has little in the way of runs on the board in any case and her reluctance to see serf choices unwound will haunt her as long as she remains in parliament, particularly at election times.

    A gift to labor – free kick at goal.

  528. 528
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    No 526

    The Luxury Car Tax is an abomination. As the FCAI has noted, the LCT affects people buying cars in the 50k-70k range the most, which is hardly evidence of extreme wealth.

    Also, justify the reasons as to why a Maserati driver should pay more tax? Wealthly people already pay many times more tax than the average person. This is just government class-war gouging at its best.

  529. 529
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    The Liberals know all about class warfare. SerfChoices, the most radical IR in a hundred years being a prime example, aimed at gouging millions of employees.

    Workplace laws have revived an old class war
    Sydney Morning Herald, 16 June 2007
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/workplace-laws-have-revived-an-old-class-war/2007/06/15/1181414544080.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

  530. 530
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Cuppa, how do you find old articles so quickly? Do you have a database? Good on you.

  531. 531
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Oz, last couple of years I have tended to save articles of interest.

    Before SerfChoices, believe it or not, I was politically neutral. A swinging voter.

  532. 532
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    No 529

    Yeah, if you call creating 500,000 jobs “gouging employees”.

  533. 533
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    And we all know none of those 500 000 jobs would’ve been created under a fairer system.

  534. 534
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Wait so, has the Liberal Party jettisoned WorkChoices on not? It’s either not mentioned or defended.

  535. 535
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    The Parliamentary Liberal party has officially killed the policy. It is dead and won’t be resurrected.

  536. 536
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    But why would the Libs kill off a policy they, and you GP, think was such a beneficial policy?

  537. 537
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Could it be that the masses out there didn’t like it because, wait for it, it didn’t benefit it them?

  538. 538
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Or maybe they just didn’t sell it well enough.

    A $121 million only goes a short way these days.

  539. 539
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Just because the public doesn’t support something it doesn’t mean it isn’t the right decision to take. If the public had supported Work Choices it wouldn’t somehow have made the policy right.

  540. 540
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    I’m not arguing with any of that, Cuppa @ 500 – all I’m saying is that Buswell has not been promoted since he became Opposition Leader in January. His seniority within the Liberal Party did not change after the election.

  541. 541
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    538 -539 Well, why can it then? Good policy shouldn’t be thrown out that easily should it? If the Libs see it as good policy why don’t they have the Pynes to keep it and sell it properly?

  542. 542
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    If the public had supported Work Choices it wouldn’t somehow have made the policy right.

    Of course not, but the two reasons why it could have been killed off are a) The Liberals now think it’s a bad idea or b) The public quite adamantly said they don’t want it and by keeping it they aren’t getting elected.

    Now if the Libs come out and say a) that throws up a whole lot of questions about their judgement. Why is it bad now and why wasn’t it bad last year? Why’d they spend over a hundred million telling us how good it was, only to admit it was bad later on?

  543. 543
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    No 542

    The answer to your scenario is (B) – clearly Workchoices was not popular and thus the Liberals lost the 2007 election. To continue to pursue it would be electoral suicide.

  544. 544
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/10/29/1224956046591.html?feed=fairfaxdigitalxml

    NSW councils have called for the elimination of the State Government. But in doing so they have also called for local councils to be disbanded, in favour of new super councils.

    The scrapping of State government and amalgamation of councils into regional governments has been a pet notion of mine for a while. Good work LGA.

  545. 545
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    And that answers your question Itep. The Liberal Party are based around what gets them votes, not what they actually believe is right or what they spend millions of taxpayer dollars trying to convince us was right.

  546. 546
    PAAPTSEF
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    WorkChoices?.. Never ever. It’s dead. It was killed by voters at the last election.

  547. 547
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    No 545

    Oz, both parties believe in principles which simply do not have popular support. That is the reality, whether we like it or not. That doesn’t mean we have no principles.

  548. 548
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    No 546

    The GST was resurrected by voters in 1998. It still amazes me that Laborites continue to ignore the fact that the Liberals won the 1998 election on a platform entirely based on introducing a broad-based consumption tax. They did not have similar success in 2007.

    Either way, I’d like to see Rudd put his political future on the line for something he truly believes in. Howard did.

  549. 549
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:30 pm | Permalink

    The answer to your scenario is (B) – clearly Workchoices was not popular and thus the Liberals lost the 2007 election. To continue to pursue it would be electoral suicide.

    So is talking down the Australian economy electoral suicide but the Shadow ministry does it daily on automatic pilot without even considering the issue. You would actually better off talking about workchoices.

  550. 550
    Dario
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    The GST was resurrected by voters in 1998

    So WorkChoices isn’t dead either then?

  551. 551
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    No 549

    Steve, Wayne Swan has been talking the economy down since he came to office.

  552. 552
    PAAPTSEF
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Any suggestions for a headline? How about “Turnbull led rush on non-banks” or “Turnbull among first to panic”

  553. 553
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Of course not Dario It’s political suicide and not to be talked about before the election, Scrubbed from the talking points.

  554. 554
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    GP, the Liberals have been talking Wayne Swan down since the day he became treasurer.

  555. 555
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    In the 1998 election the anti-GST ALP got 50.98% of the tpp (http://www.aec.gov.au/Elections/federal_elections/1998/hor/two_party.htm) and so the Howard Government should not have been returned but was because of the single member system and so did not have a democratic mandate to introduce the GST or govern.

  556. 556
    Kit
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    GP @ 548.

    The Liberals scrapped in 1998 – it was hardly a ringing endorsement.

    Australians hated ‘Fightback’ in 1993. And they hated it being introduced (in part) by stealth by Howard in 1998. And they hated it again in 2007.

    The only difference between 1998 and 2007 was the amount of seats that Howard had to play with.

    The level of distaste for the ideology of the Libs (when they are being true to it) was the same in 1998 as it was in 2007 and it always will be.

  557. 557
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Sorry the link did not come through properly.

    http://www.aec.gov.au/Elections/federal_elections/1998/hor/two_party.htm

  558. 558
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    No 556

    Rubbish Kit. The reason why Hewson lost in 1993 was because he failed to properly enunciate his policies. He ran a dumb campaign, and he deserved to lose. In 1998, Howard and Costello devoted unbelievable energy to explaining the GST and the reasons for its introduction. And they won.

  559. 559
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Because of the anti-democratic single member electoral system!

    No mandate!

  560. 560
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    GP the only reason Howard brought in WorkChoices is because his head swelled, he looked at the figures they were sitting on and the press saying that Labor would need two elections to come back to Government and thought he was unbeatable.

    He thought he could pull the wool over our eyes with a huge taxpayer funded advertising campaign and unfortunately for him it didn’t work.

  561. 561
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    He ran a dumb campaign, and he deserved to lose.

    GP, he ran a good campaign but deserved to lose. It was only in the dying days of the campaign the loss became apparent.

  562. 562
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    No 560

    Part of the problem with Workchoices is that it added more regulation than it removed, it was rushed and it was poorly sold.

    That said, for all Labor’s bluster over the policy, they’ve only modified it rather than abolish it altogether.

  563. 563
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    A very interesting article by Alan Ramsey, Sydney Morning Herald, 18 August 2004 on the Rodent performing callisthenics with the truth re: the GST (and other issues besides). A taster:

    Let's have the honest truth, once and for all

    ... He issued a four-sentence statement saying, "Suggestions I have left open the possibility of a GST are completely wrong. A GST or anything resembling it is no longer Coalition policy. Nor will it be policy at any time in the future.

    ... Howard lied about the GST before the 1996 campaign. He lied about these lies during the 1998 campaign.

    ...The central truth is, however grave the charge, that John Howard's prime ministership has been a lie from the outset.

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/17/1092508474312.html

  564. 564
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    No 561

    Rubbish steve, he ran a very poor campaign even though the fundamental policy work on which the campaign was based was detailed and sound.

  565. 565
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    That’s true. It’ll certainly be interesting to see how ‘Forward with Fairness’ looks when it’s introduced.

  566. 566
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    No 563

    Alan Ramsey is an ALP shill. He has no credibility.

  567. 567
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    William at number 540

    Thanks for that. I retract my statement about Buswell being promoted after news of his harassment-type activities had broke. In fact the Liberals chose to keep him as leader in a leadership spill, in full knowledge of his actions.

  568. 568
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    No 567

    Yes but that’s because they did not believe there was anyone else to take over the leadership. It wasn’t until Colin Barnett withdrew his retirement plans after Buswell resigned that there was a clear path forward.

  569. 569
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    564 GP, nice attempt to rewrite history, there was nothing wrong with Hewson’s campaign but plenty wrong with the policy. The main one being that people wouldn’t buy it.

  570. 570
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    No 564

    Steve, if it was a good campaign he would have won. He didn’t because his campaign failed to explain the biggest tax reform in federal history. Howard and Costello did explain it properly and they won.

  571. 571
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Not at all GP, it was the complex policy. Cake and icing etc.

  572. 572
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Alan Ramsey is an ALP shill. He has no credibility.

    Generic Person, you are a Liberal shill, and, given Howard’s cavalier approach to the truth over many years and issues, and your fervent, uncritical support of nearly everything he did, plus your propensity to shoot the messenger, and your defense of the hated SerfChoices, it would appear it is you who has “no credibility”.

  573. 573
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull is Joe Average:

    "That fund ... had declined significantly in value and we were advised to dispose of it. I still have investments in a fund that is frozen.

    "I'm in the same boat as many people who have got investments in managed funds - a lot of them have had their redemptions frozen."

    the boat might be the same, but methinks Malcolm isn’t travelling steerage…

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/29/2404504.htm

  574. 574
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    No 571

    Steve, you cannot call it a good campaign if he lost. Sorry, but it’s the truth whether you’re talking about Liberal or Labor.

  575. 575
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Yes but that’s because they did not believe there was anyone else to take over the leadership. It wasn’t until Colin Barnett withdrew his retirement plans after Buswell resigned that there was a clear path forward.

    A chair sniffer is the best the WA Liberals could come up with. How fitting.

  576. 576
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    No 572

    Alan Ramsey refuses to accept that when Howard changed his mind on the GST, he took it to an election and won. If he doesn’t have the intellectual honesty to accept that, then he has no credibility.

    And as for your adamant hatred of Workchoices, just remember that Julia Gillard has retained most of it including many of the severe restrictions on unions.

  577. 577
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    No 575

    Oz, you can keep talking about Buswell, but the reality is that Barnett formed government after becoming leader a day before the campaign begun. I think that’s more of an indictment on the corrupt incumbent Labor government than the WA Liberals.

  578. 578
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    You don’t think people have won after running poor campaigns, GP? Or lost despite giving campaigns their all?

  579. 579
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    So when Howard declared the GST “dead”, sending out pressers saying it would “never ever be part of Liberal Party policy in the future”, what do you take that as having meant?

  580. 580
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    GP I was merely restating what you said, in a more blunt manner.

  581. 581
    ruawake
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    GP

    Workchoices went too far, Labor has stopped AWAs, re-instated unfair dismissal, these are huge differences. Workchoices lite is crud.

    But Workchoices and the casualisation of many jobs will help Labor. The official statistics on unemployment will look good for at least another year. People will be under-employed but this will not show in official figures.

    If you look at the real cost of intrducing WC it was over $500 million (check the budget papers).

    Half a billion bucks wasted for what? :(

  582. 582
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

    No 579

    He changed his mind. Now you can call that lying, but I believe it’s not a lie. He took it to an election which is about as honest as you can be about it.

  583. 583
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    GP, that is indeed good news that Liberals are happy to change their minds. Now if you can only convince them that there is a Global Credit Crisis and can they please stop talking down the Australian economy at every opportunity, the country would thank you for it.

  584. 584
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    GP, what do you take his statements as having meant?

  585. 585
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    GP, I don’t agree with anything you’ve said in the last few pages and agree with the general contention that you are an official Liberal Party shill.

    Having got that off my chest, I do agree with you on the following matters:

    1. Blu Ray (and the now defunct HD-DVD) are superb media.

    2. There is no discernable difference between 1080p and 1080i

    3. Brando in Mutiny On The Bounty gave one of the classic (if high camp) performances of all time, and it looks fabulous in high-definition.

    You need a bigger screen than even a 60″ plasma or LCD to truly appreciate 1920 x 1080 high definition images. I use a projection system with an anamorphic lens for ’scope presentations, on a 12 foot wide (by 53 inch high) screen. Only then do you really appreciate hi-def. As the screen gets larger you just see more detail. Fine films transcend politics, I am forced to admit.

  586. 586
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    No 584

    At the time he did not intend for the GST to form part of the Liberal platform. He has since changed his mind and he did the right thing and took it to an election. I can’t believe you’re still going on about it.

  587. 587
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    P.S.

    4. Playstation-3 is the way to go with Blu-Ray.

  588. 588
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    No 587

    Yep agree with all your film comments. I picked up a PS3 last Christmas. A wonderful machine and great value.

  589. 589
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    No 583

    The Opposition is not talking down the economy.

  590. 590
    ruawake
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    I have no problems with a GST per se. It was supported by Keating as “option c” and really should have been Labor policy. What I have a big problem with is the fact that people were inadequately compensated for its introduction and that Rat Man ripped off the States. Plus the Democrats turned it into a dogs breakfast.

  591. 591
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    If you look at the real cost of intrducing WC it was over $500 million (check the budget papers).

    Half a billion bucks wasted for what?

    Think of the stakes the Liberals were playing for. Its aim was clearly to hurt their political opponents. If they had gotten away with SerfChoices, the Labor Party would inevitably have been hurt, possibly slowly wiped out altogether.

    Andrew Charlton, The Age, 30 September 2007

    You won't hear Howard admit this, but one of his key motivations for the WorkChoices reforms is the tangible prospect that the new rules will hurt his Labor opponents by crippling their financial backers in the union movement.

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/pm-of-ulterior-motives/2007/09/29/1190486626917.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

    Sydney Morning Herald, 4 April 2007:

    The former federal Labor leader, Kim Beazley, told the Herald earlier this year he feared for Labor's future if it lost the next election because the new workplace laws would destroy the ALP's union base.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/union-decline-puts-heat-on-labor/2007/04/03/1175366240481.html

  592. 592
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    “The Opposition is not talking down the economy.”

    Did they announce a policy change this afternoon?

  593. 593
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Democrats senator Andrew Murray ... point out the obvious: "There is a political motive in play … Given that unions are one of the ALP's largest donors, reduction in union membership will impact financially on the ALP."

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/pm-of-ulterior-motives/2007/09/29/1190486626917.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

  594. 594
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    The right-wing rodent, proudly self-declared as “the most conservative leader the Liberals ever had”, using the legislative powers of the federal parliament, to seek to eliminate the major rival to Liberal political hegemony.

    A one (major) party state. I believe that was the rodent’s goal.

  595. 595
    ruawake
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Leadership changes can be a circuit breaker, but the only circuit Turnbull has broken was the long term polling trend that was running slowly back towards the Coalition.

    Nice work Malcolm!

    Nice work Possum. :)

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2008/10/29/pollytrack-october/#more-2532

  596. 596
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Not the way that I read the transcript.

    Then it turned out that far from working in the closest possible contact with the Reserve bank, he hadn’t spoken to the Reserve Bank directly himself at all. He had, according to what he said in parliament, a one line exchange with the Secretary of the Treasury to confirm that the Reserve Bank supported it or endorsed it, whatever the language was that Dr Henry used. You know I have to say to you, when you make a decision as momentous as this, which deals with banking and deals with the markets, the idea that the Prime Minister and his Ministers would not have worked through this for hours with the Reserve Bank Governor and the senior officials at the Reserve Bank is hard to believe. Can any one of you imagine if you were in Mr Rudd’s position you would not have got the Reserve Bank in and worked through this, every pro and con, worked through it up hill and down dale?

    http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1937

  597. 597
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Can someone remind me again of exactly how the Opposition is talking down the economy?

  598. 598
    ruawake
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Does Malcolm Turnbull have a conflict of interest in seeking a Treasury briefing on “investment funds” ?

    He managed to withdraw his money before funds were frozen, was this before the 12th Oct? How long does it take for the pecuniary interest register to report changes?

    Will the 60,000 people affected be happy they did not have the quality advice that Turnbull seems to have?

    Not saying Turnbull has done anything wrong – but how can he pretend to be the champion of people who have had their nest egg frozen when he knew to get his funds out just in time?

  599. 599
    ltep
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Well he couldn’t really tell the public to do the same could he?

  600. 600
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Why?

  601. 601
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    How the hell can Andrew Robb sit there and say “The Government shouldn’t get into debt to fund infrastructure”.

    THEY WOULDN’T HAVE TO IF YOU DID SOMETHING SIFGYSGRFSGFOW:IHSFGOWFVKWUFGWFHFHSKJFGSfgoadhgagbdsjgbsklhgbsghvdahjvHGDFTYA^RI7tq9t08t80whgurhgw948hgwrgiurbgwrbgwrougewrgboreg

    Ah, I’m so angry.

  602. 602
    Ron
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    I do not see Rudd’s ‘guarantee’ & decisions same as most here Taking 3 specific decions he scores 1.5 out of 3 and with weighting of each decision’s importonce makes about 65% to 75% score

    Th run on non APRA funds was because Rudd (correctly) very publicly guaranteed Bank deposits In effect Rudd was saying nothing else was guaranteed So of course people then took actually notice of th PM of Australia Trying to blame anyone but Kevin Rudd for th ‘run’ like Turnbull, th ‘oz’ or anyone else for th stampede is absurd Delays since in a Rudd Govt reponse has further worsened Managed Funds liquidity status Govt should wear this blame
    Redemptions pre th Rudd anouncement was some Aussie investors individually “reading” th bad storm clouds in USA about non Banks , but rudd publicly confirmed these fears

    Secod decision was th detail on our Guarantee …1 millon cap/fee & its range th insurance bit A very sensible framework announced by our Govt Although they lose a few points for some delay in getting this detail determined & then publicised Th million figure was always about target being approx 95% of all Bank deposits , and around 95% of deposits was min needed for th guarantee to hav credibility

    Th first decision was Rudd’s best decison and th most crucial to make …to decide on a speedy , simplistic , unambiguous & undetailed basic message to all Australians that all our Banks were 100% safe as our whole govt was guaranteeing them This decisive step ensured our whole financial system wouldn’t be undermined & with it th whole economy (it will go into histary books with big plus)

    Now to th Managed Funds arguments Firstly , shares ar liquid (investors can get your capital + or – losses) immediately whereas th funds ‘capital’ bit is frozen so no capital access available for capital needs (only pensions) Freeze is supposedly for 4-6 months , not sure what will dramatically change in future to allow them to fully unfreeze

    Secondley , just because people chose a higher risk for higher yield is no argument for doing nothing except crazy idealogy Since Keating people hav been “encouraged” by Govt into superannuation to weany us of tax payer paid pensions Worse there’s been no hint from any Govt Labor or Liberal of a high risk such as this crisis nor from financal community Worser most of these Manged Funds were/ar well run…all Govt & community Groups hav supported this 26 billion sector existence (warts & all) So those who say bad luck to th investors
    should tink again at th “encouragement” given ordinary aussies , and th consequences of this Sectors meltdown

    Solutions ar difficult to avoid massive losses and th big 4 Banks fully taking over this sector as well with even more undesirables market dominance Managed Investments cann’t be obviously guaranted at all but not on idealology but as govt doesn’t know th viability of there portfolios (being pooled market linked investments) Rudds decision to fast track them to ‘banking’ type status is inadequate (but it buys some ‘time’ but not much) “confidence” is everything , afterall Rudds Bank guarantee of 1.2 trillion worked and th Govt did not hav that money in its back pockets

    Perhaps some ronanomics , liquidity & confidence ar needed ..perhaps an insurance/fee hit will hav to be taken by Depositors to stabilize & perhaps after case by case very urgent prudential audit some form of redeemable pref shares to support it short term and/or an entry finally under some/full APRA supervision & criteria And our Malcolm , a typical opposition Leader , politcs number one , when has there been parisianship , some reckless statements early on but with some policy void now on Managed Funds he has no answer & not sure he reely wants to understand , whereas at least with Julie Bishop she reely knows she doesn’t understand

  603. 603
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull from the Liberal Party doorstop still believes the Australian over the evidence of the Ken Henry at estimates last week.

    http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1937

    http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2008/10/its-out-much-awaited-ken-henry-hansard.html

  604. 604
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Has any one else stopped arguing with GP for long enough to notice what was reported today about the front page splash in Saturday’s O.O. about the P.M.’s conversation with Dubbya.
    At the time I read it, I thought it passing strange, to say the least, that such detailed reporting of quotes from someone who would have had to be in the room where the conversation was taking place was anonymous. This, on the basis, that if you were a reporter who was being gifted with such information, you would not expose your informer to the extent they clammed up.
    It has apparently been a source of embarassment, reportedly, to the P.M., according to Michelle Gratten, with a headline about Rudd telling porkies; a slightly less sensational report in the SMH and a predictably over the top attack from Bolt.
    The story has since died, however, I find the continued Rovian tactics against the P.M. obscene, as GP would say.

  605. 605
    lefty e
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    I’m confused about the Libs position. What do they support?

    Costello says “too bad, we didnt make people go into managed funds”. True, though you DID do everything possible to encourage it before July 1 last year except throw in steak knives. He seems to be saying “dont touch it, govt” – much like Rudd/ Swan.

    Talcum seems to be generally critical, for reasons he wont elaborate on, with no alternative policy provided. Plus he’s pulled his own money out before the guarantee, merely highlighting that these funds were in trouble beforehand, and that he’s been talking out his rear since.

    But at the end of the day, none of these funds have actually collapsed – so technically there’s no problem.

    Id say the real problem is this: lets allow pensioners to invest in bank deposits with the same tax benefits provided to other schemes, managed trusts etc etc (eg that only 50% of it is considered an ‘asset’ for pension purposes). Fact is, these funds have been getting a free kick off government for years, a leg up of monstrous proportions. Retirees have been strongly encouraged into them by bad govt policy.

    Id be tackling that angle – allow the same tax benefits to low risk behaviour. Current policy setting are insane.

  606. 606
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    lefty e, they support getting back into power, for their own and their mates benefit. That’s all.

  607. 607
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    The problem is lefty e, that it is the well advised that were causing the rush on funds by withdrawing cash and threatening the financial well being of others. Once confidence is restored the freeze will come off.

  608. 608
    ruawake
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    Didn’t the Australian Office of Financial Management buy billions of mortgage backed securities in Sept? Oh yeah thats right, Julie Bishop knew all about it.

    http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1667

    So after the Govt. pouring $8 billion into this sector, Malcolm decides to pull his cash out, to invest in Hong Kong.

    When will people realise that it was the Turnbull’s of this world that caused the mortgage funds to freeze deposits? :P

  609. 609
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    No 604

    HSO, do you have a link? I remember hearing about this on Insiders. But certainly if the details of private conversations between Bush and the PM have been made public, it would be a serious embarrassment for the PM, not to mention a breach of trust.

  610. 610
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    No 606

    What Opposition does not want to be in power? Honestly HSO, please think before you speak.

  611. 611
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    What Opposition does not want to be in power?

    The current Federal Opposition by the way they are behaving.

  612. 612
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    No 611

    They are behaving responsibly.

  613. 613
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, the polls really are reflecting that aren’t they?

  614. 614
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    No 613

    The polls are mostly meaningless this far out from an election.

  615. 615
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    it would be a serious embarrassment for the PM

    He obviously leaked it himself. Made him look like a legend.

  616. 616
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    But the trend away from the Liberal Party is encouraging.

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2008/10/29/pollytrack-october/

  617. 617
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    No 615

    Maybe he’s a legend to you, but to any foreign leader or diplomat, Rudd would look like a total imbecile, incapable of holding private meetings in confidence.

  618. 618
    ruawake
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    GP

    Does a private conversation between our PM and an imbecile count? ;)

  619. 619
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    Maybe he’s a legend to you

    You haven’t read the article so you have absolutely no idea what you’re commenting on.

  620. 620
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    No 618

    lol. Good point. :D

  621. 621
    dyno
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Ron,

    Spot on with your analysis.

    On Saturday on the previous thread I gave my ratings of the leaders’ performance during the crisis: Rudd “ok, no better, no worse” and Turnbull “poor”. Sounds like you’re not a million miles away from there, either.

    Good to see you back.

  622. 622
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Because that would have been talking the economy down, stupid!

    And we wouldn’t want to do thatm, would we?

    Far better to just vote unconditionally for the government’s measures and then white-ant them from then on, culminating in a total condemnation a few days later. When an interviewer asks, “Why did you vote for them?” just tell them, “No, no, no, Kerry… you don’t understand!”

    Everyone except Malcolm Turnbull, Rainmaker to the self-funded retirees is a fool. And Mal’s gonna remind us of that every time he gets the opportunity.

  623. 623
    Gusface
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    dateline special on SBS now on

    quite good coverage of ground level politics

  624. 624
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    Generic Person @ 609. The original report was as I said in Saturday’s OO. The reports of the other people I mentioned you could find by trawling the archives of the papers .
    @ 606. What do you take me for? And don’t answer that for you clearly take me for a fool. You seem to have difficulty with understanding that some of the population are able to discriminate between party’s that are in it for themselves and party’s that work for the wider benefit of the whole country. You clearly belong to the former, and your party’s current standing in the polls reflect what the rest of us think of you.

  625. 625
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    This thread is moving too fast for these tired brain cells: 621 in response to 599.

  626. 626
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    Obviously the Bush-Rudd convo was leaked at the US end in cahoots with the Murdoch press and/or the Liberals (not that there’s much difference), as a clumsy atempt to make Rudd look bad. Michelle Grattan said as much on the ABC this morning.

  627. 627
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    No 624

    Unless Michelle can substantiate that claim, she should get a new prescription.

  628. 628
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Adam, ouch! GP, finally the story makes a little sense.

  629. 629
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    I’ll take Michelle Grattan’s word over the Liberal stooges of the Murdoch press every day of the week.

  630. 630
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Another question for the pollbludgers, if any one knows. Why is Malcolm making decisions about his own money? Isn’t there a conflict of interest here?

  631. 631
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    No 628

    It’s his money, he can do what he likes with it so long as his interests are declared.

  632. 632
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Adam in Canberra @ 625. Can you tell me why you think that it was the US end that leaked?

  633. 633
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    They were the only people in the room with an interest in doing so.

    As for “substantiating her claim,” she doesn’t have to. Journalists report what they know, and they don’t disclose their sources. Whether you believe them or not depends on your opinion of their professional skill and veracity, based on their record over time. Grattan has a higher reputation, established over a longer period of time, than anyone else in Australian journalism with the possible exception of Laurie Oakes.

  634. 634
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    No 627

    Of course you would Adam, but the fact is that she hasn’t substantiated her counterargument, so it has no credibility.

  635. 635
    Socrates
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Ron 602

    I agree with most of that as a fair summary. I also agree that many people have been encouraged by successive governments to invest in these sort of funds, and the sector has been under-regulated (unlike banks) after Howard post the HIH collapse only placed a code of self regulation on the industry. That was a cop-out. For some real ideology see:
    http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1123/PDF/report.pdf

    However I disagree on assisting the managed funds. Choosing a higher risk for higher yield IS a reason not to get a government guarantee. Besides, people don’t really want a government guarantee on their value – there is no risk they will become insolvent. Instead people just want to get their money out now. It isn’t the government’s job to bail them out in that way.

    The fact is these funds are not absolutely at call and are not absolutely guaranteed. It is no fairer to taxpayers to guarantee all of them than it would be to guarantee equity funds. The money is not lost, but it will take time for people to access it. As others have said, some of the freezes predated the bank guarantees anyway.

    This is not meant to be ideology, but I don’t see any quick, painless way out for these funds. Your solutions amount to the government handing money over to them, not just giving a guarantee. That money is going to be needed for other things now as the economy slows. The solution is waiting for stability to return to markets. In the mean time, I agree that assistance (non-means tested) should be given to people with money in them.

  636. 636
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Of course you would Adam, but the fact is that she hasn’t substantiated her counterargument, so it has no credibility.

    WOW! You got him there G.P., you can’t prove a universal negative!

    Surely you’ll be awarded the Fields Medal forthwith.

  637. 637
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    I don’t see why Rudd or his office would leak private conversations with world leaders when by doing so it makes Rudd look bad in so many ways, not least in the eyes of other world leaders. It just doesn’t ring true.

  638. 638
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    Clearly, Generic Person @ 630, you have no difficulty with separating out your own interests when you are a member of parliament and decisions about same, from decisions about the country’s best interests, i.e., they are the same. No wonder your party is in such a parlous state.

  639. 639
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    Thanks, Adam in Canberra. Makes sense.

  640. 640
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    Of course you would Adam, but the fact is that she hasn’t substantiated her counterargument, so it has no credibility.

    Neither has the “Rudd’s office leaked it” claim.

  641. 641
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    If you only have

  642. 642
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    oops

    If you only have 10 minutes a day for politics, listen to Michelle Gratten with Fran Kelly on RN at 7.30am. That’s all you need to know.

  643. 643
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    No 636

    Oh please HSO. Your argument is meaningless innuendo, as is Michelle Grattan’s.

  644. 644
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Gary Bruce @ 646. That was another thing that had me suspicious from the initial report in the OO. It’s quite weird that the Rovian tactics are being employed here so much. Why?

  645. 645
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    GP,Just for the sake of entertainment remind me again what the Liberal Party talking points had to say about the Rudd phone call to George Bush. I do believe it was a theory about the leak being at this end.

  646. 646
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    GP,Just for the sake of entertainment remind me again what the Liberal Party talking points had to say about the Rudd phone call to George Bush.

    Bush spoke into the correct end at all times.

  647. 647
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    Obviously you don’t know anything about how real journalists work, GP. Your mates in the Murdoch slime-factory can just make stuff up, but real journalists who work for real newspapers like the Age actually have, you know, sources, to whom they actually, you know, talk. Grattan doesn’t deal in “innuendo” – that’s your field. If she says something is the case, you can bet that someone very well placed has told her so.

  648. 648
    scorpio
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    [It’s quite weird that the Rovian tactics are being employed here so much. Why?}

    Harry, just have a look at the current MSM share prices and their profit figures for the last financial year and an awful lot is explained.

    In 11.5 years, Howard poured $2b into sustaining the Libs in office. The tap has been turned off and they are desperate for the gravy train to get back on the rails again and continue the feeding of enormous amounts of public money back into their coffers again.

  649. 649
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Adam, the Age is a substandard Newspaper.

  650. 650
    scorpio
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    the Age is a substandard Newspaper.

    As compared to?

  651. 651
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    Generic Person at number 625 wrote of Michelle Grattan:

    she should get a new prescription

    Quoting a despicable attack line that originated with one Peter Cowardello, the biggest bully and craven poltroon in federal politics. One who, on occasion after occasion, going as far back as 1994, always chickened out of putting himself into the position of leadership where he’d really have to fight, rather than simply sound his loud mouth off.

    The kind of person Generic Person seems to “admire”.

  652. 652
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

    The Australian or The Financial Review.

  653. 653
    scorpio
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    I wonder who wrote this?

    http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1667

  654. 654
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    The Australian is no more than Liberal Party surplus toilet paper. The AFR is a very good paper, if one avoids Laura Tingle.

  655. 655
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Generic Person @ 642. You refer to me @ 636, but that’s Gary Bruce. I’d suggest asking your boss, supervisor, manager, whomever, for a break. I’d also be suggesting some proper time to actually research whatever it is you’re going to post about. The endless repetition of particular phrases, etc. is about as interesting as watching football, for me, and as about as convincing for a member of the football indifference club.
    It’s just unutterably stupid and boring. Sorry, but if you’ve got something useful to say about the tensions currently apparent, politically and economically, across both domestic and international scenarios, I’d be more than willing to discuss them.
    I have a step-daughter who is a hot shot corporate lawyer who is a Lib. voter, and I have more intelligent conversations with her than I’ve ever had with you.

  656. 656
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    No 652

    The Age/SMH is no more than ALP surplus toilet paper.

    What is wrong with Laura Tingle?

  657. 657
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Adam, the Age is a substandard Newspaper.

    WOT! Even below YOUR standards!?

    How doth it be so?”

  658. 658
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    The Financial Review, aren’t they the ones who used to kick Howard on a daily basis when he was Treasurer. They seemed to consider him the worst Treasurer in this country’s history and they always had good reasons why they never liked what he did.

  659. 659
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    No 656

    Yes, regardless of his Treasury woes, he was Australia’s Greatest Prime Minister.

  660. 660
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Scorpio at 651 wrote:

    I wonder who wrote this?

    I’d be surprised if it was Mesmer-eyes. Too many big words.

  661. 661
    Generic Person
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    No 653

    HSO, on my screen no 642 is written by you.

  662. 662
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    I think I now understand what constitutes a good newspaper in GP’s mind – one that has a conservative bias.

  663. 663
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    The Australian or The Financial Review.

    You’ve failed to substantiate your counterargument.

    You lose.

    Or day I say… checkmate?

  664. 664
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Or day I say… checkmate?

    CONNECT FOUR!

  665. 665
    steve
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    Mesmeralda worried about upward pressure on interest rates? What?

    http://www.sfe.com.au/content/sfe/products/trt/targetratetracker.htm

  666. 666
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Not ashamed to admit it: tears running down my face at the conclusion of tonight’s live ABC presentation of La Boheme.

    Choke… gets me every time. I’m written off even before the end of the first act. By the finale I’m a basket case.

    Long live music. I hope that’s ont thing we can all agree on. Puccini is God.

  667. 667
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Generic baby @ 655. When , if ever, will you ever get it, that this is unutterably tedious and unproductive, and really, really, just so unutterably tedious, unproductive and boring. God, it’s so boring, so endlessly, unremittingly boring. If we could distill your essence and manufacture it, we’d have a money spinning sedative. If you’ve got something useful to say, please do.

  668. 668
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    HSO, all jobs are boring, Liberal shill GP’s moreso than most, I’d imagine. And surely more soul-destroying, coming on here, day after day, defending the meanest, most miserable mob to ever darken the doorstep of Parliament House. And without even a lousy toilet break written into his SerfChoices “agreement”. Must need the money bad, is all I can say…

  669. 669
    scorpio
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Harry, you know the old saying ” empty vessels make the most noise”.

    The main problem being that it is not music to the ears. Just a boring, droning, background noise that I’m sure everyone has long wished would stop.

  670. 670
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    You can never be sure if a story you read in the OO is true, false or manufactured but you can be sure that more often than not they are bent to support the LNP and undermine the Govt, that is what there is little point in buying it.

    The Age is one of the few papers you can buy where you actually might get to the truth of a matter.

  671. 671
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    No, no, Cuppa, Young Liberal hacks do this stuff for love, not money. GP is no doubt trying to get on the shortlist for the Berowra by-election – the shortlist is known in Sydney YL circles as “the Dave Clarke Five” for reasons I’m sure you can figure out.

  672. 672
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Adam, “Young Liberal” seems a contradiction in terms. I actually thought the name was Geriatric P until closer examination. (A bit slow, I’ll have to have a think about the Dave Clark Five one …)

  673. 673
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    Reminds me (and sorry for the off-topic) … Malcolm Turnbull in his youth wrote an essay critical of the Liberal Party called “Old Men at Twenty-One”. LOL

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/master-turnbulls-liberal-spray/2008/09/22/1221935530521.html

  674. 674
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Clarke_(Australian_politician)

  675. 675
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Cuppa,there are parts of my work that are boring, but i actually really love many parts of my work. I get a real kick out of people getting better and finding or developing their own resources to deal differently with life’s vicissitudes, of finding service gaps and ways of getting services to work together to meet those gaps. Innovation in human service delivery is a great buzz.
    Generic Person just seems like a dumb robot, and compared to my step-daughter, who can at least be swayed by logical argument, just boring. Agree the AWA must be pretty ghastly.

  676. 676
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    Adam In Canberra. You made me laugh out loud.

  677. 677
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    My work here is done…

  678. 678
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Harry, you’re in the helping profession by the sounds, immeasurably more worthwhile than GP’s caper, which is to come on here defending ideological nasties, cowards, liars, and all-round miserable misfits. Good on you.

  679. 679
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Adam in Canberra. Well done. You deserve a stupid coffee cup or t-shirt or something.

  680. 680
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Adam, that guy sounds anything but liberal.

  681. 681
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    Ta, Cuppa. GP’s lot is an unenviable one, but he (assuming the gender) is just so awful, even in terms of logic, it just is pointless trying to have a conversation.

  682. 682
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    NSW Liberal being run by right-wing hacks, NSW Labor being run by right-wing hacks.

    Depressing.

  683. 683
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Ta, Cuppa. GP’s lot is an unenviable one, but he (assuming the gender) is just so awful, even in terms of logic, it just is pointless trying to have a conversation.

    I’m still trying to get Glen to fight G.P. They obviously represent different Young Liberal factions. You got the tossers and the windbags. I can’t figure out which is which.

  684. 684
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    You got the tossers and the windbags.

    Those are actually the formal names for the factions.

  685. 685
    vera
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Another made up story by the OO by the look of things. then when it doesn’t happen they will accuse Kev of a backflip. Sooo predictable, sigh…

    “A spokesman for Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, Anthony Albanese dismissed the reports of $600 million and plans to move funding forward, as assumption.

    “We told the Australian that when the story was published. They are just speculating,” the spokesperson told http://www.governmentnews.com.au.

    “I have absolutely no idea where that $600 million figure came from. We have not announced the quantum; we have not announced the final details of the program.

    “I genuinely don’t know what they are talking about,” he said.

    http://www.governmentnews.com.au/2008/10/28/article/HYPCDZMZCQ.html

  686. 686
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    From a link at the bottom of Adam’s Wiki article

    {Lyenko Urbanchich} was also the last, and most powerful, of the central and eastern European Nazi collaborators and war criminals who infiltrated the Liberal Party from the 1950s and coalesced with Australian rightists to form the "Uglies" faction.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/obituaries/ardent-nazi-took-liberal-to-extremes/2006/03/03/1141191845008.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

    I dunno about everyone else, but when even the party name is a lie (it should be the Anti-Liberal Party or ILliberal Party), if the falsity goes that fundamental, how or why would you trust a word they say?

  687. 687
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    Those are actually the formal names for the factions.

    I just got word through that G.P. edits his faction’s newsletter, it’s called The Daily Tosser.

  688. 688
    Ron
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps two sentences in th middle of my long #602 post did not get weighting because it was only one sentence each (on agree no guarantee and my suggested use of redeemable funds but not intended by me for redemptions)

    “Managed Investments cann’t be obviously guaranted at all but not on idealology but as govt doesn’t know th viability of there portfolios (being pooled market linked investments)”

    That statement was intended to demolish any argument in favour of a guarantee on prudential grounds alone , irrespective of accounting for people taking a bigger risk in Managed Funds for a higher return

    Th queston that I thought leadd from my supposition of no guarantee is should any Govt proactive ‘action’ be taken (and if so what) or whether ot let them wither

    My view is ‘action’ is desirable rather than no action because :Govts “encouraged” them , did so for a productive economic purpose self funding supa , gave no warning they were as risky as they ar in fact now ar irrespective of th cause , most were/ar well manged & most did hav acceptable liquidity levels for ‘normative’ business but could not be expected to hav liquidity for a foreign imported financia tsarmi , and its undesirable for th big 4 Banks to fully take this Sector as well

    Now none of these reasons rely on th investors ‘deserving’ assistance but on th broader reasons abov I did NOT intend for eg redeemable pref shares to be used (after thorough APRA type audits of viability) for use as redemptions at all but rather to underpin/compatable with a Depoisitors fee also payable for some insurance cover & re-establash some public confidence due to ‘Govt involvement’

    Despite some of th Managers fee rip offs , th sector does perform a valuable role both a as self funding supa conduit , cheaper sourse of funds for our Banks than dear US alternatives , different productive investment utilisation in our economy and a Sector th big 4 Banks don’t control So no govt guarantee , no govt risk , redeemable monies , giv some consumer confidence of govt interest to reverse redempton flood , provide liquidaty (not for redemptions) but for there core business of earning returns & maintain future revenues to Govt that Sector contributes

    It is true chasing bigger returns by taking bigger risks normaly is a capitalism buyer beware …however this is a once in a Centary situation with other considerations in hand Th Govt has gone down my & others here rail track of a no guarantee (fine) but to me skipped a few rail Stations in between where I’m standing and jumped to th last rail Station ending up wanting these Mnaged Funds to be APRA approved almost Banks

  689. 689
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    I dunno about everyone else, but when even the party name is a lie (it should be the Anti-Liberal Party or ILliberal Party), if the falsity goes that fundamental, how or why would you trust a word they say?

    The way I think about it is that Menzie’s chose “Liberal” deliberately to misrepresent what Labor stood for. My understanding is that Labor has NEVER been a socialist party, it has always assumed a version of capitalism would exist to ensure liberty and freedom. It just thinks that wealth creation should benefit workers as well as owners, and that social mobility is best achieved through equality of opportunity to education.

    So, in that sense, Labor are social liberals. The Liberal party is full of neo-liberals, which we generally call conservatives.

  690. 690
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Pain-in-the-arse comment deleted – The Management.

  691. 691
    Cuppa
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Self-indulgent discussion of other commenters deleted – The Management.

  692. 692
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Self-indulgent discussion of other commenters deleted – The Management.

  693. 693
    Michael Cusack
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Bushfire Bill. Me too, a great interpretation of one of the greats. Good opera is priceless.

  694. 694
    Albert Ross
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    GP

    Are you one of the real estate agents harassing Prof Andrew Pittman about his pointing out which properties are prone to damage as a result of climate change?

  695. 695
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Night lads and lassies.

  696. 696
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    I just got word through that G.P. edits his faction’s newsletter, it’s called The Daily Tosser.

    Named after what goes on in the party room.

    My understanding is that Labor has NEVER been a socialist party, it has always assumed a version of capitalism would exist to ensure liberty and freedom. It just thinks that wealth creation should benefit workers as well as owners, and that social mobility is best achieved through equality of opportunity to education.

    Labor has never never had a strong socialist (In the Marxist sense) presence. The furthest left they’ve been is with the reformist Fabians.

    It depends on how you define “socialist” I suppose. Hardcore conservatives would argue that a progressive income tax is “socialist”. But who really cares what they think.

  697. 697
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    It depends on how you define “socialist” I suppose. Hardcore conservatives would argue that a progressive income tax is “socialist”. But who really cares what they think.

    Were they ever socialist in the European “Democratic Socialist” sense of the term? Maybe the Left was. But generally the focus since even Whitlam has been on figuring out ways to make the wealth pie bigger, rather than just dividing the pie in different ways. That was certainly the aim of Hawke/Keating.

    Even minimalist state Libertarians believe in some redistribution, because they believe in a police force and judiciary to enforce private property rights.

    So anti-tax zealots would have to consider minimalist state Libertarians socialist. :D

  698. 698
    Andrew
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Gotta love OUR ABC. Have done alot of driving in the past 2 days and listened to ABC radio. Well blow me down if Turnbull is not our PM. Virtually every political story was from Turnbull’s perspective, yesterday he was getting advice on how to help the funds, today he was saying the funds would have trouble with more regulation etc etc. It is unbelievable

  699. 699
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:25 pm | Permalink

    The ALP constitution and previous policy platforms contained a lot of socialist rhetoric. “Nationalisations of industry” etc. but it was never really a goal and no one bothered trying to implement it, except that bloke in the 40’s.

    The British Labour Party also had a controversial phrase in its constitution, stipulating that the party sought the “nationalisation of the means of production, distribution and exchange”. Tony got rid of that soon enough.

    The disconnect can be explained by the fact that it was the unions that wrote the constitution, but the parliamentary party who, exposed to the realities of politics, implement policy.

  700. 700
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    The disconnect can be explained by the fact that it was the unions that wrote the constitution, but the parliamentary party who, exposed to the realities of politics, implement policy.

    I think the ALP constitution says “socialisation”. But I think this term is ambiguous, it could mean “state ownership”, or it could simply mean “regulation so benefits are shared by society”.

    It leaves a lot of wiggle room IMO.

    I think the ALP has always been pretty practically minded. They were always interested in awards – pay and conditions – as well as public education – and at least initially tarrifs, rather than shutting down every business and replacing it with a state run organisation.

  701. 701
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Here’s some pub trivia to throw back at people who say “The Greens aren’t going anywhere” “They’ve hit a ceiling” etc.

    It look British Labour more than 20 years to crack the 10% threshold and 30 years to replace the Liberal Party as the main opposition to the Tories.

  702. 702
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    It look British Labour more than 20 years to crack the 10% threshold and 30 years to replace the Liberal Party as the main opposition to the Tories.

    But isn’t that like saying the Greens would need the ALP to die before they could become the opposition?

  703. 703
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    I think the ALP has always been pretty practically minded. They were always interested in awards - pay and conditions - as well as public education - and at least initially tarrifs, rather than shutting down every business and replacing it with a state run organisation.

    There’s the reformist vs. revolutionary socialism.

  704. 704
    Ron
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    ShowsOn

    #688

    “Ron #686 Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 10:54 pm | Permalink”

    what does “core ‘left’ policys” actually mean?

    Actualy my #686 was solely to do with ‘Managed Investments’ and proposed actions regarding them as an econamic point rather than a left policy I assum people from all politcal spectrums may both agree and both disgree with that Managed Investments post of suggested “Labor & Liberal Govts “encouragement” , there benefits & proposed cures

  705. 705
    Oz
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    I probably should add that the electoral system only extended franchise to about 50% of the male population until the early 1900’s.

    Ron, can you answer that question in a general sense?

  706. 706
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    There’s the reformist vs. revolutionary socialism.

    OzPolitics summarises it as follows:

    ...in 1913 Lenin said that the Australian Labor Party was really a (small-l) liberal bourgeois party; and the then Liberals were really conservatives. While the influence of the socialists in the party should not be under estimated, they are in a minority. The party includes a large number of radical popularists, liberals, social democrats, nationalists and Catholics who would not subscribe to socialism. The socialist objective is retained largely for tradition’s sake, and as a flexible commitment to social justice.

    http://www.ozpolitics.info/guide/parties/alp/

  707. 707
    ShowsOn
    Posted Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Pain-in-the-arse comment deleted – The Management.

  708. 708
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Wow, a measley two hours watching Wall Street and Gordon Gekko and the Laborites have descended into pathetic ad hominem. William, I trust you’ll remove the filth.

  709. 709
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    ShowsOn, please take note of the comments which have been deleted.

  710. 710
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    No 671

    I much prefer Lowe.

  711. 711
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    Here’s an amazing piece of trivia that goes against the usual conventional wisdom. Wouldn’t be surprised if a similar thing occurs in Australia.

    Overall, the Dow average generated a median 33 percent advance from the time a Democrat is elected in November or elevated from the vice presidency until the next president is chosen. For Republicans, the gain is 17 percent.

    ``It's ironic because most people think the market tends to do better under Republicans than Democrats, and the actual empirical evidence has been the opposite,'' said Nick Sargen, chief investment officer at Fort Washington Investment Advisors in Cincinnati, which oversees $30 billion. ``There's conventional wisdom, and then there are the pure facts.''

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=axt7Qr7cOyVo#

  712. 712
    James J
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:46 am | Permalink

    Interesting where Rudd and Turnbull lie. Especially given many attribute Rudd’s success to the capturing of the centre.

    “Asked to position American and Australian political leaders on a scale from left to right, the respondents put Senator Obama to the left of the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, and the ALP, which were seen as being centre-left.

    The Opposition Leader, Malcolm Turnbull, and Senator Obama’s vice-presidential running mate, Joe Biden, were placed at the centre, the Liberal Party at the centre-right and Senator McCain and President George Bush at the right.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/obama-would-get-australians-vote/2008/10/29/1224956136462.html

  713. 713
    Ron
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    “Ron, can you answer that question in a general sense?”

    I assumed th predominantly “progressives” or Greens on this site as well as th Liberals on this site (GP , ESJ Glen etc) understand what I mean but don’t reely accept th philosopghy as core (but instead as important at best) as there core values ar diffferent

    Labor core left policys ar summed up both by th words of Chifleys “lite on th hill” comments and th underlying implicit obligation & priority as core of which universal healthcare & freedom of association of employees as Unionists ar examples As a Labor person I’m defiant on them

  714. 714
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    James J was Sarah Palin left right out on the bridge to nowhere?

  715. 715
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Looks like Sheridan has been given the job of cleaning up the mess left in the wake of the story in the Weekend Oz about Rudd & Bush’s phone call.

    I wonder how many more of these beat-ups that they get found out on before they decide to revert to their proper role of actually reporting the news, not making it up or reporting nonsense from unreliable & suspect sources.

    Yesterday, in response to my inquiries, a spokesman for the Prime Minister said: "The President did not make the reported comment you refer to." In other words, Rudd is endorsing the account of the conversation given by the Bush administration official.

    It is impossible to know who leaked the original conversation. The story as reported said Rudd refused to comment on the conversation. There were advisers present during the phone call. Some people in the bureaucracy naturally have knowledge of what was said. Rudd had dinner guests who may have been privy to something.

    Yesterday, the PM's spokesman made it clear that Bush knew all about the G20.

    He said: "In fact, President Bush has been deeply engaged with the G20 and the role the G20 will play in dealing with the global financial crisis. This was the topic of conversation between MrRudd and President Bush and the actual reason why Mr Rudd made the call to President Bush."

    And here’s the rider that attempts to give the Oz an out.

    God alone knows exactly where the truth lies in all this. Certainly it is an incontrovertible fact that Bush has frequently dealt with and talked to, as well as about, the G20. Indeed the G20 finance ministers were due to meet in Washington shortly after the Bush-Rudd conversation and Bush was involved in aspects of that meeting.

    Further, according to Rudd's statement yesterday, the whole subject of the conversation between the two leaders was the possibility of calling a G20 meeting. It is of course possible that Bush uttered some similar words to those in the original story, but in a wholly different context: as in, say, "What's the G20 going to achieve?", or some such formulation. Or it may be that Bush simply misheard and said: "What's that?"

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24572800-5013460,00.html

    This publication continues to slide deeper and deeper into the slime.

  716. 716
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    No 712

    JJ, you’ve tampered with the space-time continuum on poll bludger with that comment. Turnbull more central than Rudd….it can’t be. Put your flame suit on!

  717. 717
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    No 715

    They reported information from their sources like any other journalist. Heaven forbid, Adam spend two posts giving us a lesson in journalism…weren’t you listening? ;-)

  718. 718
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    Certainly it is an incontrovertible fact that Bush has frequently dealt with and talked to, as well as about, the G20. Indeed the G20 finance ministers were due to meet in Washington shortly after the Bush-Rudd conversation and Bush was involved in aspects of that meeting.

    If it was such an “incontrovertible fact”, therefore widely known, then it stands to reason that an agency such as the Oz would have been more than aware of the fact.

    The only explanation can be that it was a cheap shot designed to damage Rudd but the ramifications of it were poorly thought out at best.

    Things like this can cause diplomatic difficulties with potentially wide ranging ramifications. The White House certainly jumped on it quickly. The Oz must have assumed that it would remain a “domestic” issue and that the Bush Administration wouldn’t notice.

    This “rag” is trying to make us all look like idiotic fools. Time to smarten yourselves up people.

  719. 719
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    Interesting point here about 400 000 investors in a US frozen fund.

    It is one of eight cases pending against the fund company, including one that accuses the fund management of tipping off big investors before the Primary Fund broke the buck so they could get out in time — an allegation the fund has denied.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/business/29fund.html?ref=business

  720. 720
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:20 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Abusive comment deleted – The Management.

  721. 721
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Steve, you can be sure that it is a wide-ranging practice. They always look after their mates.

  722. 722
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    Socrates,it certainly was a problem in 2001 when the smarties got out of an AMP fund early and left the fund with no money to trade its way out of trouble. The fund was eventually closed down. The Liberals in government just shrugged their shoulders and did nothing as usual.

  723. 723
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Well do nothing is not quite accurate. They diverted attention to the Tampa.

  724. 724
    Frank Calabrese
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:52 am | Permalink

    Mal Brough still thinks he’s the Minister for Indigenous Affairs.

    Mal Brough, who led the intervention into Northern Territory Aboriginal communities under the Howard government, says similar action is needed in Western Australia's Kimberley region.

    The former minister for Indigenous affairs has made the comments following the arrest this week of five people accused of more than 40 cases of child rape in remote Kimberley communities.

    Mr Brough says it is a disgrace that the Western Australian Government continues to allow people to live in communities where alcohol abuse, disease, violence and child sex abuse are rife.

    He has accused successive State Governments of ignoring the Kimberley region.

    "If this was Perth and we had people living in the disgraceful unhygienic conditions, the Government of the day, regardless of their persuasion, federal or state, the Government would act," he said.

    "But because they're in remote communities we somehow don't."

    "They are atrocities. We wouldn't allow it to occur in the main streets of Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane or Perth, why the hell do we let it occur in the East Kimberleys?"

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/30/2405092.htm

  725. 725
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:53 am | Permalink

    No 722

    Oh quiet steve. You’re always talking nonsense. The Liberals introduced the prudential regulation that has stopped our local financial system from collapsing, a fact you’re only too quick to forget when it suits you.

  726. 726
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    No 724

    Brough is not saying anything uncontroversial. He’s absolutely right. Indeed, it is a shame that he lost his seat. I hope he runs again in 2010.

  727. 727
    bob1234
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:57 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.

  728. 728
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:02 am | Permalink

    No 727

    bob, the state of Aboriginal Affairs in WA is disgraceful. Hopefully Barnett does something about it.

  729. 729
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:10 am | Permalink

    If it wasn’t for the continued existence of the Liberal party The Australian would have no reason to be.

  730. 730
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    The Australian is an excellent paper, even will excel even higher when Dennis Shanahan is sacked.

  731. 731
    Dario
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    The Australian is an excellent paper

    I agree 100%. Nothing is better for lining my cat’s litter box.

  732. 732
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    Shame Dario.

    Though to be honest, I prefer reading the Economist than any Australian newspaper.

  733. 733
    Ron
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:34 am | Permalink

    GP

    With ‘oz’ , I do enjoy George Megalogenos even when i disagree with him and don’t mind Dennis Atkins, and Paul Kelly I’m surprised you’re not keen on michelle Grattan as I rate her highley and over th yesrs she’s been very cutting about th Labor Party as well as th Liberral Party but usualy find her critisisms hav soundness , ditto Tony Jones & Laurie Oakes

    I’m realize many rusted ons in both Labor & Liberal just love Philip Adams and Andrew Bolte but over parisan writers like them I blink as I turn th page on thems

  734. 734
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:42 am | Permalink

    Bolt is intolerable most of the time, much like Philip Adams. Bolt turns Insiders into high camp, especially when it’s the double wammy with David Marr.

  735. 735
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    734, GP:

    Bolt turns Insiders into high camp...

    I’ll see your Bolt and raise you an Akerman.

  736. 736
    Judith Barnes
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    Scorpio @ 302, i’m just catching up on the posts, i went away for a few days to escape the media and get grounded again, i’ll be catching up reading all posts today, yes i’m pleased about the reward, the police have worked their hearts out on “the family”,yesterday Rann went on the Today show about it as well, a lot of people have forgotten the horrific details that came out in the 11 years of inquests and court cases, those boys were systemetically tortured before they were killed from massive blood loss, Von Einam was an accountant but he posed as a surgeon and carried a bag of surgeon’s instraments with him, he used those instraments to operate on and torture those poor boys, he cut out parts of their bodies while they were still alive and roughly stitched them up, some police believe as i do that even after V E was convicted there has been elements V E’s group still at work though obviously not as often, theres been a couple of lads disappeared since and maybe some street kids who would never be missed, my journo pal will be writing an article in this weeks Sunday Mail again, it’ll be very factual, he’s lived this case with us every step of the way ever since he was a cub reporter, both the police and i trust him not to go for sensationalisation.

    as my son puts it– imagine your very worse nightmares–thats our reality–you couldnt even begin to imagine our nightmares, that goes also for the surviving parents of the boys.

  737. 737
    MayoFeral
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    Generic Person @ 725 -

    The Liberals introduced the prudential regulation that has stopped our local financial system from collapsing, a fact you’re only too quick to forget when it suits you.

    You might be surprised to learn that we didn’t have a ‘Wild West’ financial system before the Wallis inquiry, GP, but one that was just as highly regulated, possibly even more so.

    The main difference now is that now most prudential regulation is the responsibility of one entity, APRA, rather than a number of separate agencies. While this may have introduced efficiencies, having a single agency may also have a negative effect. Regulators tend to end up favouring the regulated and there is an argument that spreading regulation over a number of agencies can reduce this effect because of competition between them.

  738. 738
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    725 “Oh quiet steve. You’re always talking nonsense. The Liberals introduced the prudential regulation that has stopped our local financial system from collapsing, a fact you’re only too quick to forget when it suits you.”

    Funny thing is GP that those reforms were in place before the 9/11 sharemarket falls of 2001 and did the accounts get frozen or were guarantees offered by the Liberals while their mates were busy withdrawing all the cash out of the funds?

    http://www.apra.gov.au/Speeches/00_05.cfm?RenderForPrint=1

  739. 739
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    For politics The Australian is the best. I can’t see what’s better these days.

  740. 740
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Opinion piece by Greg Sheridan in today’s The Australian contains the following rather provocative lines:

    “Coonan is a nice woman but she is the shadow minister who casts no shadow. In her time as foreign affairs spokeswoman, so far she has put out four press releases on foreign policy matters, plus two on Britt Lapthorne. Is there nothing in the great wide world that interests the Liberals?

    Combined with the revelation that most Opposition front benchers don’t write and, it seems, barely read book chapters, allegedly about political ideas, that appear under their names, it suggests a Liberal Party bereft of any meaningful political culture.”

    Pretty strong words from someone who often appears more inclined to the conservative side of politics.

  741. 741
    lefty e
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    On the EMS, the economic myths have just been exploded. Treasury modelling finds early action on climate change will save money, and create 700,000 jobs.

    We can’t afford not to do it. So Turnbull and the Libs, and the denialists, (aka the “coal-eating surrender monkeys” :) ) – can be safely ignored as ‘economically irresponsible’.

    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/act-fast-on-emissions-swan-20081029-5bgv.html

  742. 742
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    lefty e

    I don’t think the reality of cliamte change is that simple – there will be some areas that will gain jobs from ETS, some that will lose them. But overall, yes there will be a net gain. Many of the areas of high emissions are actually very low employment industries – eg aluminium smelting.

    I also think the new Infrastructure Australia package could help in both employment and emissions outcomes if it targetted things like public transport, alternative energy or reductions in irrigation water losses.

  743. 743
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Dario 731

    Xanthippe and I love our cats too much for them to have to look down on that. Its usually the leftover bits of the SMH sports or business sections for lining our litter trays.

  744. 744
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Whinge deleted – The Management.

  745. 745
    lefty e
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Thats right Socrates – and thats the point: the economy will be transformed to some degree. Those who invest early will do better. Opposition is about entrenched interests who stand to lose, because their time is about up – not ‘economic good sense’ more broadly.

    If we sat around listening to entrenched interests moan we’d still have steam trains, horse drawn plows, and hand typesetters .

  746. 746
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    Steve

    Fair point but the 2001 AMP case still doesn’t justify guaranteeing these funds – that suggests a need for tighter regulation, which contrary to GP DIDN’T get introduced by Howard. There was a self-regulating industry code introduced, which sounds good till you check who enforces it…

  747. 747
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Left e 745

    True – we’d still be subsidising people to cut down valuable native hardwoods to turn into low value export pulp, farm hopelessly unviable parts of the Murray Darling basin, or graze sheep north of the Goyder line. Hmmm….

  748. 748
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Socrates, I just find the argument from the Liberals wanting a guarantee on these market based funds breathtaking because when given the opportunity while in Government their response was to not do that.

  749. 749
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Judith Barnes @ 736,

    Judy the levels of depravity reached by some of your fellow citizens in your fair city are incomprehensible to the majority of the rest of us.

    Myself and my family feel great sympathy for you and your family and hope that these depraved individuals can be extracted out of your community for good.

    Adelaide is a great place and would be improved immensely if these creatures, (certainly not people) can be caught and put away for ever.

  750. 750
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Steve

    Precisely – thats why I posted yesterday a link to the Treasury paper on self-regulation under tip from earlier this decade. They always left it to the market, losers be damned. (Except when that company run by Howard’s brother collapsed.)

    I could go on with a lot more embarrassing details on Liberal financial governance. Does anyone remember the inquiry into the collapse of HIH? It exposed that APRA was absolutely hopeless; many senior bureaucrats in it didn’t even understand the insurance industry.

  751. 751
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    ltep @ 740,

    You can only defend the indefensible for just so long before you look totally and utterly foolish.

    Most of the News Ltd commentators have long ago passed that level. It doesn’t help the people they are trying to prop up in the long run because they become dependent on that propping up and can never improve their performance, hence the appalling oppositions of recent years.

  752. 752
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Heres some warning of a coming Aussie recession that I almost wish they didn’t even bother reporting. It comes from the same market experts who work for the firms that set up the conditions that led to the credit crisis. They didn’t see it coming either:
    http://business.smh.com.au/business/yes-were-in-for-a-short-sharp-shock-20081029-5bgj.html

    Interesting to see in 12 months if they are correct. I’d say its a 50/50 bet at most. The Oz economy has to fall quite a bit to actually go into recession, and there is a signficant stimulus coming as well.

  753. 753
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Speaking of significant stimulus, here is a good article about the US interest rate cut overnight. It is amazing that the cuts haven’t influenced the mortgage rate yet.

    If the federal funds rate were to reach zero, the Fed would not be out of tools for stimulating the economy. But it would have to resort to unconventional tools that it has never used before. Instead of trying to reduce rates on overnight loans between banks, for example, it might start buying longer-term Treasury securities to push those rates down.

    The Fed’s biggest weakness at the moment is that the economy’s problems have less to do with interest rates than the reluctance of banks and financial institutions to lend money. Even though the Fed has lent almost $600 billion to financial institutions in the last month alone, banks are still reluctant to lend to businesses or consumers.

    Since the credit crisis began in August 2007, the Federal Reserve has slashed the fed funds rate to 1.5 percent, from 5.25 percent. But interest rates for 30-year fixed-rate mortgages are about 6.3 percent, roughly where they were when the credit crisis began.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/business/economy/30fed.html?ref=economy

  754. 754
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/30/2405318.htm

    Rudd flags more regulation in credit card market.

  755. 755
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Now down to 1%.

    Update The US Federal Reserve cut its benchmark interest rate by half a percentage point to 1%, matching a half-century low, in an effort to avert the worst US economic downturn in the postwar era.

    http://business.theage.com.au/business/fed-cuts-rates-to-1-20081030-5bk8.html

  756. 756
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    And our dollar is slightly higher! Keep going baby. I’m heading over to the US in a month, really regret not exchanging earlier on.

  757. 757
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    The

    The Deputy Governor of the Reserve Bank of Australia, Ric Battellino has released an interesting speech with graphs updating the household finances of Australians.

    http://www.rba.gov.au/Speeches/2008/sp_dg_301008.pdf

  758. 758
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Steve,

    I would say that there was a fair chance that these comments were directed at the two financial geniuses, Turnbull and Costello.

    Mr Battellino also defended the central bank’s 12 consecutive interest rate hikes since May 2002 as necessary to keep a lid on consumer spending and prevent excessive inflation.

    “Some commentators would have us believe that this had a crippling effect on the finances of the household sector. While some households were no doubt severely affected, the facts show that this was not the case for the sector as a whole,” said Mr Battellino.

    Real household disposable income increased by more than 25 per cent during that period of tight monetary policy, he said.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24575315-20142,00.html

  759. 759
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Steve

    Terrific link! That speech is very good and has some very intersting facts. Note that the only real problem highlighted was in the non-regulated mortgage broker sector. With bad loans still only 0.5% in Australia, there is no reason to believe our market will crash. But of course, our genius investment advisors (who often know as much about econoics as Turnbull) usually follow US markets down like lemmings off a cliff.

  760. 760
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Socrates, it was one of the better and more realistic speeches in Australia for a long time. If the Australian market gurus were to listen to the RBA rather than the Liberal Party version of what is happening economically in Australia, the whole place would be much better off.

  761. 761
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/10/30/1224956188036.html

    The Greens reject the filter proposal.

    Greens communications spokesman Scott Ludlam told The Age yesterday that he was concerned the Government was trying to implement a policy that was technically difficult and very expensive for taxpayers

    Senator Ludlam said server-level filtering imposed a kind of censorship that "runs counter to what the internet is all about". The Government would be better investing the filtering money in law enforcement and education.

  762. 762
    lefty e
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Here here, the greens! There goes the chance of passing it on cross benches.

    Now, just got to watch the coalition doesn’t pass Conroy’s rubbish bill.

  763. 763
    Albert Ross
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    The soon to be axed Media Report on RN covered the Filter Follies see http://www.abc.net.au/rn/mediareport/stories/2008/2405376.htm

    They interviewed Mark Pesce who I suppose will not be appearing The New Inventors ever again after plugging The Onion Router http://www.torproject.org/

  764. 764
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Lefty E, The Nationals might still support the filter plan. If they do it has a chance of passing in some form.

  765. 765
    Albert Ross
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    But perhaps The Greens will force the Australian Luddite Party to have an opt out provision for those of us who don’t want to be nannied.

    I can scarcely believe that the ALP have managed to appoint a more dense Communications Minister in Conroy than Richard Alston or Coonan the Barbarian.

  766. 766
    Dario
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    I can scarcely believe that the ALP have managed to appoint a more dense Communications Minister in Conroy

    You really think Conroy came up with the idea himself?

  767. 767
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    The Greens can’t force anything on their own. If Labor, The Nationals, Xenophon and Fielding can agree to a compulsory filter of some sort the Greens will be unable to do anything.

  768. 768
    Albert Ross
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Itep

    They might be able to force it as a pro quid pro for something else.

  769. 769
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    I thought the Greens didn’t trade bad policy for good policy.

  770. 770
    lefty e
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Yeah right, the Nats. Forgot about them :)

  771. 771
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    But perhaps The Greens will force the Australian Luddite Party to have an opt out provision for those of us who don’t want to be nannied.

    Even an opt-out would leave the problem of slow speeds.

    If Labor, The Nationals, Xenophon and Fielding can agree to a compulsory filter of some sort the Greens will be unable to do anything.

    Why’s everyone jumping to the conclusion that the Nats will support it. Have they said anything publically? How often do they, as a block, cross the bench to vote with Labor against the Liberal party?

  772. 772
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    I thought the Greens didn’t trade bad policy for good policy.

    They aren’t going to support it. Now they need to get a formal group together including the Libs, the telco industry and EFA to convince both the Government and the public that it’s a silly idea.

  773. 773
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    No 772

    The Liberals will almost certainly block the scheme if there’s no ability to 100% opt-out.

  774. 774
    lefty e
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Real risk is not the Nats, but the Coalition getting wedged into it with some bollocks pro-family rhetoric from the ALP.

    But my ‘on-balance’ guess is Conroy’s bill is now officially TOAST.

    Huzzah etc.

  775. 775
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Oz, Barnaby Joyce is a member of the ’somebody think of the children’ club ala Steve Fielding. Remember his indignation to service stations selling ‘unrestricted’ magazines?

  776. 776
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    No 775

    Barnaby Joyce is an annoying mosquito that ought to be squashed.

  777. 777
    Dario
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    But my ‘on-balance’ guess is Conroy’s bill is now officially TOAST

    It always was

  778. 778
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Oz, Barnaby Joyce is a member of the ’somebody think of the children’ club ala Steve Fielding. Remember his indignation to service stations selling ‘unrestricted’ magazines?

    Yeah and I know that Joyce has crossed the floor a few times, but the whole lot of them? I suppose he is leader in the Senate, but it wouldn’t look good for the coalition.

  779. 779
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    SNIP: Whinge deleted - The Management.

    SNIP: Bookmark deeted – previous reader & poster!

  780. 780
    scorpio
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    deleted

  781. 781
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    The Nationals are mostly conservative, religious loonies. They stand for nothing except keeping our country locked in the past.

    Although I suppose it would seem unreasonable to demand faster speed internet for ‘the bush’ and then slap on a filter that will slow it down.

  782. 782
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Scorpio, William has made it quite clear that the discussion of moderation principles is not appropriate. If you wish to do so, email him at: pollbludger (at) bigpond.com

  783. 783
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Here is a good outcome for democracy: the AFP will not get a closed court hearing at the Haneef inquiry:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/30/2405663.htm

    On a political discussion website its easy to get lost in the politics and forget that sometimes organisations do bad things through sheer incompetence, and the subsequent desire to hide it. From my time in Canberra as a public servant, if there were two departments that meritted a cleanout of their internal ranks (not just the Ministers) it would be this lot (AFP) and Immigration.

  784. 784
    Frank Calabrese
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    From Skink via The Worst Of Perth. And you thought the OO was bad.

    from Crikey today:

    “West Australian editor Paul Armstrong read an article in the Fin Review a couple of Fridays ago about how the National Party’s Royalties for Region Fund was being seen by both the Nats and the Libs.

    Been a big story here.

    Anyway, he flipped because he thought the Nats had given the Fin an exclusive — picked up the phone and rang Brendon Grylls directly. For 30 minutes he apparently abused the Nats leader and told him he would “end” him. When Grylls asked him what he meant Armstrong apparently told him he would “dismember” Mr Grylls — or words to that effect.

    Armstrong actually belives he runs the state and politicians of all persuasions should bow before him. This story is all over Perth but not sure if anyone has reported it. Yet another of Armstrong’s petulant, ego-driven outbursts.”

    http://theworstofperth.com/2008/10/23/sorry-day-nurry-day/#comment-11908

  785. 785
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    Wow that’s ridiculous.

  786. 786
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    And another good outcome for the environment and the economy – Bells have admitted they have no finance for their silly pulp mill:
    http://news.smh.com.au/business/bell-bay-funding-hit-by-downturn-gunns-20081030-5bsr.html

    Said John Gay “”In this environment, the company will be maintaining the project in a position to proceed until funding arrangements are complete.”

    Anyone care to take bets when construction will commence? Put me down for…never.

  787. 787
    lefty e
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Ok, now we’re done Conroy in, let move on the coal-eating surrender monkeys!

    http://bitemylatte.blogspot.com/

  788. 788
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    Ah I can’t be bothering attempting to teach a bunch of lawyers, hicks and their rabid followers about science.

  789. 789
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Nothing surprises me about the West Australian.

  790. 790
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Anyone want to know why Government collecting information on civilians is a bad idea?

    http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24575839-15306,00.html

    [THE Australian Taxation Office has lost a disk containing the tax details of thousands of people.

    The ATO admitted that the CD was not encrypted.

  791. 791
    Dario
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    Anyone want to know why Government collecting information on civilians is a bad idea?

    That’s just a dumb statement. They have to collect data in order to make sure we are all paying our taxes correctly etc. What is a bad idea is not encrypting the data and losing it!!!

  792. 792
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    That’s just a dumb statement.

    I’m talking about increased surveillance, giving government bureaucracies more power, removing judicial oversight etc. Things that we’re doing.

  793. 793
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    No 784

    That is outrageous behaviour from Mr Armstrong.

  794. 794
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    GP 793 I’m glad you agree. For us small-L liberals who have been pushed by Howard from neutral to pro-labor, I often think people like Armstrong (and Shana-bolt-man) cost the right more votes than they gain. The sort of people those antics will appeal to will vote conservative anyway, but the swinging voters will be quite put off by that sort of arrogance.

  795. 795
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    No 794

    Socrates, Mr Armstrong is not a MP or rep of the Liberal Party so it shouldn’t have a bearing on your vote, especially since you read more widely than one Newspaper.

  796. 796
    Socrates
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    I know GP, but I’m just saying how it affects me.

  797. 797
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Far be it from me to downplay the veracity of what you might read in Crikey, but I should note that the Paul Armstrong anecdote appeared in the “tips and rumours” section.

  798. 798
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    99% of articles are based on “tips and rumours” at least he’s admitting it.

  799. 799
    zombie mao
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    well whatever

    Paul Armstrong is still a twat.

    Actually more like a spoilt brat really.

  800. 800
    Bird of paradox
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    I’m starting to picture Turnbull as a character in Viz, in my mind’s eye…

    Turnbull says Rudd has insulted all Americans

  801. 801
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull could have done the Treasury modelling on the carbon emissions problem while he was Minister for the Environment, too.

    http://www.treasury.gov.au/lowpollutionfuture/summary/downloads/Australias_Low_Pollution_Future_Summary.pdf

  802. 802
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Well, there you go, Bird of Paradox @ 800. I thought the story had died, but nooooo, the OO feeds Malcolm again, and the ABC dutifully reports Malcolm’s spin. No, it’s worse than spin, it’s lies.

  803. 803
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    And what’s with the sneering reporting of the Treasury modelling of the ETS, on the TV News?

  804. 804
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    HSO I think they are disappointed that the ETS isn’t going to be the big drama to set up that the journalists had been led to believe. Just another routine process by the look of it.

  805. 805
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    800 – Turnbull once again over-reaches

  806. 806
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    steve, you may well be right, but it came right on top of me foolishly having a look at the link BoP provided to Malcolm’s latest effort, so I was already cross. So cross, that even knowing it won’t make a blind bit of difference, I wrote a terse email to the ABC Online lot, pointing out that Malcolm’s views on a story that had been denied by both Rudd’s and Bush’s offices 4 days ago hardly constituted news.

  807. 807
    Gusface
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Bird @800
    which one
    “spoilt bastard” “billy no mates” “general jubblies” etc etc

  808. 808
    ShowsOn
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    800 - Turnbull once again over-reaches

    I agree, especially considering that about 75% of Americans couldn’t care less about GWB anymore.

  809. 809
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    No 806

    HSO, think about it.

    1. The PM is going to deny it because that would damage his international standings even more, not to mention his overgrown ego.

    2. Of course Bush would deny it – accepting that it happened would make him look even more foolish than he already is.

    Pretty simple. The ABC is well within its rights to report Turnbull’s comments.

  810. 810
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    GP and all Australians are well within their rights to laugh at Turnbull’s comments.

  811. 811
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Grog, he just can’t help adopting the barrister approach. I’ve enough experience of them to recognise it pretty smartish. Also just has to get something into the news somewhere, anywhere, featuring him.

  812. 812
    ShowsOn
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    2. Of course Bush would deny it - accepting that it happened would make him look even more foolish than he already is.

    Considering how foolish he is, it probably happened.

  813. 813
    ruawake
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    So now the treasury modelling on an ETS has been released, it is now up to the Liberals to again attack. The Treasury modelling must be wrong. The Minerals Council told us so.

    Has Malcolm cried wolf too many times? Will his inevitable attack on the accuracy of the modelling succeed?

  814. 814
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    Generic Person @ 809, think about it.
    1. The statement made by Rudd’s office was to the effect that the phone conversation was about the G20. It was the reason for Rudd calling Bush.
    2. Bush may well be a fool, however, why would he return a phone call to Rudd about widening the proposed meeting to the G20, if he didn’t know what the G20 is?
    This was all covered 4 days ago.
    Pretty simple. Malcolm’s spin on it 4 days later is not news.

  815. 815
    vera
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    800
    How out of touch is Talcum? 90% of Australians would be cheering Rudd if he said Bush was a goose. but what does the merchant go and do? he crawls up Bush’s u know what, that is close to treason imho. He’s got no judgement at all.
    maybe he thinks Bush needs a new sheriff ?

  816. 816
    Bird of paradox
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Gusface 807: not quite sure which strip – I remember a couple of toff characters that’d be perfect for Turnbull, but I can’t think of their names at the moment. It’s that kind of ridiculous over-the-top hyperbole that makes me think of the mag, though. The (fake) letters to the ed are great too. Pity I don’t have any here, if I did I’d transcribe one.

    Also: I remember comparing Troy Buswell to ‘Baxter Basics’ or ‘Postman Plod’ a few months ago. When there was a new story about him every other week… slightly before he got elected. There’s one strip where Plod temporarily gets the sack for falsely claiming a bad back, and his boss shows him photos of him first lifting a sack of flour, then a couple of other progressively more ridiculous things, finally lifting up a truck full of anvils to get a $5 note from under the wheel. I thought of that one when I heard of the chair-sniffing episode… that’s when it all got a bit cartoonish and over the top.

  817. 817
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    Why didn’t Greg Sheriden get truly stuck into Rudd for leaking the conversation?

    GS ain’t a huge Rudd fan – and certainly is a big GWB fan, so he would have no quams in sinking the boot in.

    His line:

    It is impossible to know who leaked the original conversation.

    Is a bit odd – it hardly makes The Oz’s reporting look fantastic. The only line form the paper that he really supports as being beyond reproach is:

    [The story as reported said Rudd refused to comment on the conversation. ] because

    Yesterday, the PM's spokesman made it clear that Bush knew all about the G20.

    And GS even puts it in context:

    Overall, Rudd has done well on foreign policy. He has made some mistakes but he has got the big decisions right. But this is, at the very least, an extremely untidy performance from Rudd or some part of the Australian bureaucracy.

    The Opposition's foreign affairs spokeswoman Helen Coonan said yesterday: "This is no way to conduct diplomacy with our most important ally." Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull has stayed silent on the matter, which suggests that for all his obvious intelligence, he has little sense of what's important in foreign affairs, and important to Australia.

    No doubt Turnbull read that, and so in he goes, boots first, studs up.

    Fool. JWH calling Obama a godsend for terrorists is an insult to all Americans (has Turnbull said anyhtig about that? Or is it still LNP policy?

    This is nothing (and remember GWB is a week from history – lame duckness aside).

  818. 818
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    woops forgot the link:
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24572800-7583,00.html

  819. 819
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Greg Sheriden would only be concerned about Australia’s reputation overseas being damaged. Turnbull seems to not worry about such sensitivities.

  820. 820
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    Well, I’ve got to say I hope that with the election of Barack Obama, if some fool/s don’t kill him, that the creepy type of Rove politics, might be sidelined somewhat in the U.S., and may therefore be more marginalised here, at least in terms of their influence. It’s been a nightmare.
    It’s interesting, a genuine conservative I actually respect. It’s these neo-con B*^%$#@ds that get up my nose.

  821. 821
    vera
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    SBS news showed Murdoch and Rudd having a natter together at the launch of the aboriginal jobs plan. I wonder if the OO and their lies came up in the conversation?

    It makes you feel good when people get together and things like this happen. Positive news instead of all the nastiness and lies we have been bombarded with lately
    http://news.theage.com.au/national/new-plan-aims-for-50000-indigenous-jobs-20081030-5buy.html
    nice words from Noel pearson also

    “Mr Pearson said that for every 10 jobs a hundred flowers would bloom in the lives of indigenous children.

    “We’re going to look back on this … as that moment in the history of the country when government and society made a commitment to people that if you take up the cudgels of responsibility we will guarantee you a job, we will set forth before you a prospect of climbing up in the world, a home, a future for your children, a fair stake in this, your own land,” he said.

  822. 822
    Gusface
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    “The (fake) letters to the ed are great too. Pity I don’t have any here, if I did I’d transcribe one.”

    Bird I have most of the Viz’s plus the profanisaurus(es)

    my favs are “top tips” “mrs brady old lady” “major misunderstanding” and of course “black bag, the faithful border bin liner”

  823. 823
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    steve, Turnbull is clearly out of his depth when it comes to international relations and diplomacy. Rudd is several post codes ahead of him. Might be why his stupid out of date spiel about the Rudd/Bush phone conversation makes him sound like such a dill. Actually, come to think about it, maybe the ABC should report Malcolm’s weighed and considered thoughts on international relations and the diplomacy required to achieve results for Australia. Wonder whether Kerry would be interested. Maybe they could get him on Insiders to expound, as he doubtless would.

  824. 824
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    hundred flowers would bloom

    damn communists at it again!

  825. 825
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    HSO there was a report earlier on this thread that the Shadow Minister for Foreign affairs has only written a few letters in the whole time she’s been there. Following on from the Googler Robb debacle, it seems that foreign affairs is a weak area for the Liberals as present where they have a lot of catch up work to do.

  826. 826
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Foreign Affairs isn’t really an area where elections are won and lost so I don’t think they’ll be putting that much effort into it.

  827. 827
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Ltep it still all adds up to a team that just struggles to get their act together.

  828. 828
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    It is instructive that the only way The Australian and Turnbull and ABC can attack Rudd is to use lies.

  829. 829
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    No 825

    Part of the problem is that the portfolio was dominated by Downer for 12 years, which means no other Coalition member has had any real experience with it. That said, Stephen Smith had virtually zero foreign affairs experience either – I’m pretty sure he was education spokesman whilst in opposition.

  830. 830
    Bird of paradox
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    my favs are “top tips” “mrs brady old lady” “major misunderstanding” and of course “black bag, the faithful border bin liner”

    Ahh yeah, Top Tips – some of those tips were brilliant. And Biffa Bacon, Sid The Sexist, Roger Mellie, and Terry F—witt just for the surreal weirdness. Modern Parents and the Critics, both by John Fardell… and the same guy that drew Black Bag (I think) did a great send-up of the Famous Five, called Jack Black. A neo-nazi style crime-solving boy from Twittering-on-the-marsh or some such named place.

  831. 831
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Maybe Rudd could have asked Murdoch why the sudden increase in incompetence at his Australian newspapers.

  832. 832
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    No 831

    The Australian is fine. You guys really take too much interest in the opinion columns.

  833. 833
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    GP, certainly more interest than Coonan has taken in delegations, visits and conferences in 2008.

    http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=(Id:handbook/allmps/2m6);rec=0;

  834. 834
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    One of the things that keeps me going back to the Australian is its superior coverage of World news, which is decidedly pathetic in the Fairfax Papers. I supplement that with the Economist which I think is one of the best mags in the world.

  835. 835
    Oz
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Readers Digest has more in-depth and balanced analysis than The Economist.

  836. 836
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    One thing that keeps me going back to the List of members on the Opposition side of the Federal Parliament is I just can’t believe how little they do with the opportunities they have been given.

  837. 837
    ltep
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    GP is really a whisper marketer for the Economist.

    There are the occasional insightful articles in the Australian mixed up with tedious opinion pieces. It’s slightly better than the rubbish printed in tabloids paired with the rubbish opinion pieces in tabloids.

  838. 838
    ShowsOn
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Do people still buy dead tree forms of media?

    I just look at webpages, and listen to NewsRadio a lot.

  839. 839
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    No 838

    I don’t buy newspapers, with the exception of the Weekend Financial Review. Every other day I read the news online.

    I’m usually on 873/702/630 whilst in the car, mostly 630 RN.

  840. 840
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    No 835

    Readers Digest has a lot of extraneous crap that I don’t like. I prefer the focus of the Economist. I don’t mind Time in occasional doses.

  841. 841
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

    steve back @ 825. I was thinking I might offer the 3 legged cat as Shaow Minister for just about anything, mostly Foreign affairs. He can say Shaow, and Wah, Wah. Could also double for TV interviewers, as long as he could be convinced not to chase the lizard thingy on his lapel. He might also bridle a bit about the lapel. Maybe a bad idea.

  842. 842
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    You’re so unremittingly boring HSO. :)

  843. 843
    ShowsOn
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    You’re so unremittingly boring HSO. :)

    I thought that post was f’ing hilarious!

    I was thinking I might offer the 3 legged cat as Shaow Minister for just about anything, mostly Foreign affairs.

    How about “Shadow Minister without Portfolio”.

  844. 844
    vera
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    Harry how about your 3 legged cat get a job in shadow ministry of silly walks?

  845. 845
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Generic Person @ 842. Glad to hear it. BTW, did you watch the ABC program this evening o Churchill and Menzies?

  846. 846
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Perhaps the three legged cat might be able to sort out the failure of the Ted spread to come down to normal levels that is bothering the US Federal Reserve.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/10/08/business/economy/20081008-credit-chart-graphic.html

  847. 847
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    Nah, the cat’s smarter than Eddixinder, and Vera, he walks a bit funny, but you should see him when he’s chasing something, even if imaginary. Could he be Opposition Leader, then?

  848. 848
    Albert Ross
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    I find that the herein aforementioned “Viz” is the only paper worth taking these days. Unfortunately one has to also purchase the “Guardian Weekly” to put it inside in order to be able to read it on the train.

  849. 849
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    The three legged cat is very sensibly going to slope off to sleep in preparation for his appearance as Opposition Leader. Well, they slope off to sleep any way.
    steve, I’ll take some time this weekend to look at the links you’ve provided, and get back to you if I’ve anything useful to say. Many thanks.

  850. 850
    vera
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    He might not be off to sleep at all Harry he may be sneaking out to sit in a gutter at 3am with a junkie, just to get in a bit of practice for the job?

  851. 851
    steve
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

    Japan has gone for a big splash of cash to try to head off the Global Credit Crisis.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/business/31yen.html?ref=business

  852. 852
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    HSO,

    There are always the one eyed cats. You don’t know if they are coming in or going out. Apparently, there are a lot of Liberals in the breeding.

  853. 853
    Generic Person
    Posted Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    Silly South Australian Attorney General has again blocked attempts to introduce R18+ ratings for games. This guy is effectively of the same looney ilk of Senator Fielding & Xenophon.

    http://blogs.smh.com.au/screenplay/archives//020433.html

  854. 854
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 12:11 am | Permalink

    Turnbull’s latest attack on Rudd over a supposed leak from Rudd’s office on a phone conversation he had with the President is not only knowingly dishonest (that it came to the murdoch boys via the other side in the USA is revealed already) it is also pretty stupid.

    Hardly anyone will care and it will look like Turnbull is just puffing up again like a noisy toad with little to say except to again be complaining about something and personally attacking Rudd.

    Turnbull should remember their relative trust levels in a previous survey where Turnbull’s was fairly low and Rudd’s good. Any accusations made by Turnbull on Rudd may just as easily cause people to reflect on Turnbull’s own character.

    Turnbull’s continual attacks on Rudd and what he is doing at this point in time may be seen as weak spoiling tactics, when people would prefer he just shut up and let the government get on with its job. More of this and Turnbull may become annoying background noise.

  855. 855
    Generic Person
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.

  856. 856
    steve
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Looks like we might be beginning to see the first bit of action on the frozen funds front.

    PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd has called on Australia's big banks to help unfreeze investment funds by buying their securities.
    Speaking at the Business Council of Australia annual dinner in Sydney, Mr Rudd said the banks could play an important role in freeing up billions of dollars worth of frozen investments.

    "Larger and more liquid institutions - including the major banks - could provide liquidity to various market-linked investment vehicles within the financial system by buying their securities at market prices," Mr Rudd said.

    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24579595-5003402,00.html

  857. 857
    steve
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    European and US sharmarkets are going strongly today despite the bad news of the US economy shrinking being announced a short while ago. There seems to be a little bit of confidence sneaking back at long last.

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/economy-shrinks-as-consumers-cut-back/

  858. 858
    Oz
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    Ah, not so fast Steve.

    Everyone the day before yesterday was harping on about how it was the “second biggest points gain in history”. I pointed this out earlier, but some of the biggest gains in history actually occurred at the beginning of the Great Depression.

  859. 859
    steve
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    No, they have survived the day in fine form oz. If it had been any time in the past three weeks, news like that would have driven the Dow down massively. I wasn’t around in the Great Depression, but it is clear this time that only a steady lift in confidence is the only way out.

  860. 860
    steve
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    Sorry the link is here.

    http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/markets/overview/overview.asp

  861. 861
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    I supplement that with the Economist which I think is one of the best mags in the world.

    Oh yes the Economist is a very focused journal of international repute. Hence they can see that McCain and Palin are frauds, and have endorsed Obama:
    http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12511171

  862. 862
    Socrates
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    An interesting story on the infrastructure funding plan here in The Age
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/cabinet-rift-hits-nations-building-program-20081030-5eno.html

    I hope Tanner sticks to his guns. The last thing we need is for all the new money to be wasted on a bucket of pork. See how little good the Darwin – Alice Sprigns railway has done. The money needs to go on the basics that have been neglected for years;
    - upgraded passenger rail capacity in capital cities
    - inter-state freight rail between capitals (Adelaide – Brisbane – Melbourne -Sydney)
    - urban roads to ports
    - water infrastructure and national electricity grid to make alternatives more viable

  863. 863
    Socrates
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Also pleased to see that the commitment to the ETS was announced yesterday:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/31/2406259.htm

    I suppose I’m biased on this oen because it will mean more work in my area, but overall it will create more jobs, which may be useful in the next two years. However it underlines the needd for Tanner to stick to his guns on the infrastructure funds I referred to in 862 above. Places like Latrobe valley will suffer from an ETS because it will expose how bad their older stations are. But the solution is not building them a new rail line to nowhere. They need new industries, or migration out of the area.

  864. 864
    ltep
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Given GPs love for The Economist which cannot quite be contained I found this story brought a smile to my face:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/31/2406562.htm?section=justin

    It probably says alot about me that the first thing I thought about on seeing the story was this website.

  865. 865
    zombie mao
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Morgan Farce to Farce..er face to face

    2PP

    ALP 56.5
    LNP 43.5

  866. 866
    vera
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    I tuned into Bussiness Channel earlier to check out the All Ords and $Aust and at the time they had Shaun Callow from Westpac speaking about confidence and said how he wished a certain paper wouldn’t trawl through all the economic data of the day to find the most negative bit (no matter how irrelevent) and then make it their front page news story.
    Hmm i wonder what paper that would be???

  867. 867
    dovif
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Sharemarket confidence in Australia won’t be repaired for a while yet.

    Atm because Kevin Rudd’s unlimited gaurantee on bank deposit, people are taking their money from the investment funds (who invest the money in shares) and putting them into bank deposits.

    Some funds had frozen the withdrawal, because there are too many people who still want to withdraw their money. These people are unable to withdraw until the market settled, however everyone knows the market will fall again once these people sell their shares, so people are still selling off their investments, that is why our market had underperform US/Japan/UK/HK by about 10% in just the last week.

    This is not happening in the US and UK, because they had limits on their bank gaurantee, why Rudd and Swann did not follow their led, despite them acting later than all the other government and created this mess is anyone’s guess.

    Investment confidencein Australia had been destroyed by the Rudd government’s policy, it will take a while for it to be mended

  868. 868
    Dario
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    What dribble dovif. Half the funds froze before the guarantee.

  869. 869
    bob1234
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 2:47 pm | Permalink

    Not to mention the polls show Rudd made the wrong decision.

    Oh wait, they show he didn’t!

  870. 870
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    “Sharemarket confidence in Australia won’t be repaired for a while yet.”

    Actually the electorates confidence in the fibs wont be repaired for a while yet either dovif!

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/31/2406964.htm?section=justin

    “The assistant general secretary of the New South Wales Labor Party, Luke Foley, has told the court he saw Mr Egan and another man putting the leaflets in the letterboxes.

    He says he approached Mr Egan and told him, “We know what you’re up to – handing out shit sheets on the ALP”.”

  871. 871
    Posted Friday, October 31, 2008 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    New thread.