I guess we’re not getting a Morgan poll tomorrow, so a stand-alone post is required to note recent developments. To wit:
• Antony Green has crunched the numbers from the Australian Bureau of Statistics’ latest state and territory population figures and concluded that yet another new seat will need to be created in Queensland next year, again at the expense of New South Wales. Queensland will thus have boomed from 26 seats to 30 in little over a decade, having earlier gained Blair in 1998, Bonner in 2004 and Flynn in 2007. New South Wales lost Gwydir in 2007.
• The Australian Electoral Commission has announced that the finalised new federal boundaries for Western Australia will be gazetted on December 18, and maps published henceforth.
• Possum reckons “it’s time to rethink political demographics”, and explains why across a two-part epic here and here.
• A constitutional crisis is brewing in Canada that has some excited observers invoking the example of Australia in 1975. The election on October 14 saw Stephen Harper’s Conservative minority government re-elected, but again requiring the support of Bloc Québécois. However, Bloc Québécois has now signed an accord with the Liberal Party and leftist New Democrats due to dissatisfaction with the government’s handling of the financial crisis. Harper reportedly plans to ask that Governor-General Michaëlle Jean prorogue the parliament so it will not sit until the budget is presented in January. This would avert a sitting on December 8 at which Harper’s government would likely be defeated on a no-confidence motion, and allow him time to pick apart the Liberal-Bloc-NDP deal. This raises the question of whether Jean ought to grant a prorogation to a Prime Minister who might not have the confidence of the House.
UPDATE (5/12/08): Jean agrees to prorogue parliament until January 26. Ben Raue at The Tally Room expresses his displeasure, and proposes reforms to the appointment of prime ministers (citing the practice in the Australian Capital Territory), the scheduling of parliament and the timing elections. I am a little more sympathetic to Jean’s decision, on account of the Liberals’ evident state of disarray – although I can buy the idea that it’s not the Governor-General’s role to make such judgements.
1,278 Comments
Has the Canadian GG given any indication of a time frame for her to decide this matter? One would think sooner rather than later if the looming no confidence vote is to otherwise happen on the 8th …..
Is there any precedent for a Governor or Governor-General refusing to follow the advice of the Prime Minister in the absence of a no-confidence vote?
If we want Fielding to be marginalised, what about that nutter Bidgood? Not only does he sell his photos of the petrol covered protester, he turn out to certifiably insane. If we’re in “end times” why bother running for parliament? Evidently the GFC is an act of God.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24750170-601,00.html
Well that is stupid, what happens if the minister said something that was blatantly wrong? It should be the legislation that counts, that’s what the parliament actually votes on, not what the minister says. Plus, Carr isn’t even the Minister for Education anyway, he only represents Gillard in the Senate.
You left ouf the funniest part:
Yes Tony Abbot, the guy who threatened to punch Cheryl Kernot behind the speaker’s chair in the House of Representatives, and who was the first cabinet minister for 40 odd years to be temporarily suspended from the chamber has decided to chip in his 2 cents worth about the behavior of another member.
We have to say ‘What would Jesus do?’,” he says.
If this clowns actions are any guide, He’ll be taking happy snaps at the “end of times”
I agree with Hockey – who said the age of miracles was over
– the sooner the ALP cuts Bidgood loose the better.
Bibgood belongs in the Liberal Party!
He’d be right at home there with tacky and low rent.
ShowOn, don’t shoot the messenger. It’s what happens.
Anyone know of any moves to enlarge parliament?
What about a referendum on basing the distribution of seats between states on enrolment not population?
Does anyone know which member(s) of the HoR support PR for the HoR?
You can’t enlarge the House without enlarging the Senate at the same time.
And doing this will probably be opposed by the major parties as it would allow greater opportunities for minor parties to get elected…
OK, Bidgood is a loony tune. But so is Fielding! And what about Abbott? Heavens above, when supposedly intelligent people start talking about the bible — it’s a worry!
Centre, do you not see anything ironic in your injunction to “Heaven”?
Hell — No!
I said enlarge Parliament not enlarge the HoR.
he HoR can and has been expanded (and contracted) without expanding (or contracting) the Senate if that expansion (or contraction) is due to interstate fluctuations of population changing the number of states that have are above/below half a quota above the the number of whole quotas that they are entitled to or if it is to do with the territory seats.
Well I read an article last year sometime that most judges are even dubious about the merit of explanatory memoranda when interpreting legislation. If many judges consider those irrelevant, I can’t see how a few remarks in the Senate could be of greater import.
Fielding and Abbott are moderates compared to Bidgood. The judgement he exercised in photoing a man who could soon self-immolate and then sell the pictures to Murdoch is diabolical. And his fundamentalist millenarian views make him completely inappropriate for Parliament. When was the last time we had a politician saying “The End is Nigh”.
One wonders how Bidgood got preselection in the first place.
That said, it’s quite probably that he was a cannon fodder candidate who got caught up in the Labor wave in Queensland last year.
What are the odds of the Labor Party in Dawson ousting him in the preselection before the next election?
What was the diabolical part? The photographing, or the selling of the photograph?
What if he gave the photograph to the federal police, would’ve that been OK, or just as bad?
Unfortunately about 1/3 of the members of our federal and state parliaments hold the same or similar views.
I’d say the Nationals are looking forward to winning Dawson back just as the Liberals are looking forward to taking back Robertson.
I apologise if this was posted in the previous thread.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/04/2437923.htm
That’s because we all know it occurs Oz…
Oz, it was also referred to as farcical.
He didn’t really sell them, just gave them to Murdoch on the proviso they donate to charity
Spam Box – so do we all.
Except the Opposition, who are mostly the dark side of Peter Pan.
Even you have to admit the parliament is better with Dee-Ann Kelly gone.
Not only farcical, but everything to the right of ludicrous in a thesaurus.
The biggest problem in unis is bias against BOTH the Left and Right by post-modernists in the Humanities who see both sides as the same.
It isn’t Left-wing bias that is the problem, it is No-wing bias that is the issue.
Well yes i agree but maybe they can recruit that Hajnal Ban to run for the Nats in Dawson…i would say she would be a marked improvement on Kelly and Bidgood.
Both. Anyone who’s first instinct when they see someone about to self-immolate is to take photos is beneath contempt. And then to publicise the man’s misery is just despicable. I’ve treated quite a few self-immolators. It’s not nice at all.
Name a single one who says the world is about to end and that the GFC is “God’s justice in action”.
There is NO issue of bias in any universities.
Do lecturers and tutors have their own perspectives on the world? Obviously. Do those perspectives sometimes become more noticeable at certain points intime? Yes, they do.
But that’s not a problem! University students aren’t idiots who swallow everything they hear without analysing it. That’s the point of university. To understand how to think critically and analyse. There a broad range of opinions in universities and the fact that they’re sometimes expressed and sometimes contrary to those of students is a good thing.
Oh dear, that soon? The poor guy has not even taken the office as yet.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/03/the-debate-over-obamas-fi_n_148225.html
Btw; how come the Govt has not made a big song and dance over the good news on the trade surplus, weird.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/record-trade-surplus-may-save-economy-20081204-6r5a.html
http://news.smh.com.au/business/car-sales-crash-22-in-november-20081204-6rc2.html
Holy crap, Toyota is outselling both Ford and Holden COMBINED.
Never would have seen that coming in Australia.
Look forward to the new boundaries for Kalgoorlie. Hope it’s still in reach.
Talking of hopeless MHRs, Liberal Barry Haase takes the cake. Hasn’t had an original idea of national/any significance in ten years. That’s more than a million dollars of taxpayers/voters’ money wasted. Not to mention his notorious printing and mail expenses. I miss the strange political landscape called WA. Well, sometimes.
The sad thing is that some of them – especially first year students – do take the lecturer’s word on everything, because that is generally what they were taught to do at high school! Part of tutoring first years is trying to unwind that reliance on arguments from authority. But some university faculties just make it worse. They had down things as if it is obvious dogma, then produce students that regurgitate the same opinions in essays without first thinking critically about issues.
This is particularly an issue in some sections of the Humanities where adherence to certain theories is considered a pre-requisite for ideological and political purity.
I completely agree with you! But when students are having certain orthodoxies rammed down their throats without being exposed to alternate views, then they don’t learn how to critically analyse what they are being told.
I am not suggesting this is a universal problem. Some faculties don’t have this issue because they are inherently taught dialectically. The lecturers and tutors will demonstrate two (or more) opposing theories by different people to explain the same phenomena. Then students will be asked to learn and explain the advantages and disadvantages of each theory. Then they will have to pick one and explain why they think that is the best one. THAT is critical thinking in practice.
Unfortunately the Humanities doesn’t have the same history of teaching dialectically. Instead certain theories become considered orthodox, and almost unchallengeable. Adherence to various forms of psychoanalytically infused Marxism is the most common.
Such theories are the only ones presented in lectures and tutorials, or even worse, are simply assumed to be self evident facts, rather than challengable conjectures! Within such an environment such ideas can only be challenged by students who do a heap of their own research! They shouldn’t have to do this. They should be presented with competing theories at every turn, then asked to reflect on what they think is better, and asked to explain why.
I say this as someone who has been taught about globalisation in both politics classes and media studies classes. In the politics classes I had to reflect on how globalisation has both positives and negatives, benefits and defficiences that have reshaped Australia and other countries in BOTH positive and negative ways.
When taught about globalisation in media studies I was essentially encouraged to hate America, because, apparently America uses globalisation to oppress the rest of the world! The fact over the last decade about 200 million fewer people in China are now living in extreme poverty – in part thanks to increased trade – was never mentioned. The fact Australians enjoy high living standards compared to most people in other countries, because – in part – Australia spent the 1980s economically, culturally, and politically integrating itself with other countries was not mentioned. The fact if Australia wanted to (somehow) deglobalise itself Australians would have to pay double or triple for consumer electronics that we generally love was not considered.
How does any of that encourage critical thinking?
Shows On @ 32
Sounds like it incouraged some pretty critical thoughs from you!
I have to disagree with you there. Perhaps that was your experience but it certainly wasn’t mine. I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t necessarily occur, just that it doesn’t in all the Humanities like you’re suggesting.
An example – In one particular course about International Relations and various political/sociological theories we were taught about a number of them. Emphasis was put on a few as they were the dominant theories in the particular field but a lot of others were canvassed. No lecturers or tutors attempted to ram particular theories down our throats and when the tutor did finally reveal what theory they subscribed too, at the end of the semester, none of us could have guessed it.
However, when the tutor did say something that some in the class disagreed with they were quick to point it out. This was in first year, so also on that point I wouldn’t lump together dumb first years.
Now you can say there are some who will swallow everything and some faculties are engaged in ideological battles (though they wouldn’t call them that), particularly noticeable regarding post-modernism. But expecting those things not to exist, or to not be an issue, is to expect that teachers are robots with no life experiences of their own that have shaped how they view the world.
The Finnigans @ 29 -
I didn’t expect much from Obama, but so far he he’s failed to meet even those low expectations, especially on foreign policy and defence. Seems to me that the “Change We Need” is mainly a wholesale return to the Clinton era, mostly the worst bits, with a smidgen of Bushism.
Employing Madeline Albright who believes the pitiful deaths of perhaps 500,000 Iraqi infants was a “price worth paying” as his ’social’ secretary and Hillary ‘Bomb, bomb, Iran’ Clinton as Sec. of State aren’t the only disappointing appointments, just the worst.
That said, he’s probably still marginally ahead of what I’d anticipated from Clinton.
Of course, I noted it wasn’t universal. But adherence to ideological dogmas instead of argumentation tends to proliferate in faculties that don’t have a history of dialectical inquiry. That is my experience as both a student and a tutor.
Sure, so we agree. Those faculties or departments who are stuck in ideological battles are biased, because they – by definition – allow ideology to get in the way of teaching in a way that promotes critical thought.
I don’t want robots. I just want teachers that can back up their claims with evidence and coherent arguments, instead of saying things because they supposedly make them ideological pure.
Ultimately I hope that Gillard extends her school grading system to universities, so those with faculties full of actual teachers – instead of ideologues – end up with more government funding. The faculties full of ideologues should just be left to wither on the vine for all I care, they don’t actually teach students anything anyway.
I think there are more pressing problems with university staff then what I see as a minority of “ideologues” that should be sorted out first, but after that, I agree with you.
I attended Question Time with an international visitor today. It was not an occasion to be proud of, generally speaking. Visitor was impressed with the condolence motion for Crean, and the respect shown him behind the scenes, especially from Hockey, Ruddock who also spoke, Truss and another I didnt recognise. She was appalled at the behaviour during QT proper, especially when Swan and Gillard attempted to answer a question. It was obviously the opposition tactic to interrupt their answers with serial points of order and to shout loudly in an attempt to intimidate. This didn’t work, esspecially to Gilliard. The loudness of the din was astonishing, Pyne and Dutton and someone I didn’t recognise were literally bellowing like football barrackers. Wilson Tuckey looked and occasionally sounded as though he had become his own best customer, a failing of many publicans. He especially fired up when binge drinking was criticised.
Gilliard is head and shoulders above the rest in the house. Akin to having Steve Waugh in a high school team!
The security at the House is stultifying, and visitors are treated like trespassers with malice.
There’s a difference between talking about the Bible and sprouting “end of days” stuff…
Talking about Dawson:
http://news.theage.com.au/national/former-mps-son-to-face-drug-charge-20081204-6r8a.html
I would also like to see Bidgood go, just as much as Fielding. Its not just the weird religeous views – selling the photos was indeed callous. Curious how so many of these “fundamentalist” religeous types don’t allow their beliefs to stand in the way of making a buck by means which ost reasonable people woudl find objectionable. I wonder if he’ll declare that income? Blessed are the hypocrites.
In other news, the Government’s scrapping of their idea to create a “Department of Homeland Security” is a very good idea.
He didn’t sell them
What electorate does Bidgood represent, bludgers?
Well, he did sell them but gave the money to charity. I can’t get outraged about this myself. Storm in a teacup.
I see it as an extremely pressing problem, because universities aren’t any better than the quality of the people teaching the students.
It doesn’t matter how much extra funds you give a faculty, if it is run by people who can’t, or are unwilling to promote critical inquiry, then the quality of the graduates won’t improve.
Dawson – Dee-Ann Kelly’s old seat. He defeated her with a 13% swing.
Michael Cusack, do you think security may have been more than usually stroppy, due to the bloke jumping to the floor of the House earlier in the week and the incident involving the person dousing himself in petrol?
Must say, the behaviour of some of Her Maj.’s Loyal Opposition sounds less than parliamentary, but am pleased to have confirmed that JG just keeps shafting them no matter what they throw at her.
And gotta say, I did say the gov’t. wouldn’t cave on the Private Schools Funding Bill and very chuffed I was right. It’s getting so that you can read where they’ll shift ground, and where they’ll dig their heels in, IMHO.
Ta, ShowsOn. Hmm, know that electorate somewhat and can understand why he was preselected and elected. I think it is a problem referred to by Barak Obama, in relation to a group of people, who, when anxious, and they generally are, will cling to religion (any sort will do, but the one promising most certainty they come across first, they’ll grab onto with a deathly grip) and guns.
Apparently Hefferman is a “family friend”.
Funny how the Libs seem to have different standards for their members to what they expect of Labor.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/04/2437985.htm
Yep a dopey old idea left over from Beazley, that was handy for opposition, but not worth tuppence in govt.
What about a Coast Guard, instead of using the navy.
Does that have merit?
HSO. @ 48. Yes , definitely that played a part of it, especially within the gallery of the house. I actually overheard one security person tell another that there was a “suspect” in the opposite gallery connected to the events of the other day, and to keep a close eye on him. I cant comment on the security elsewhere, except to say that it was not user friendly to visitors, and tending towards abrasive.
Re the Opposition, I was amazed at the din they raised, much more overpowering than comes over the TV coverage, and often drowning out the speakers. No one was warned today which raises the question of how bad it has to get when oeiole are ejected. Pyne, and to a lesser extent Tuckey were just bellowing out incomprehensible noise on a continuous basis. Others on the opposition side joined in as required by tactics.
The word ’sell’ shouldn’t even be used. He handed them over provided News would make a donation to a charity… he never touched any money.
I agree on the storm in a teacup. Since when has MP’s taking photographs of something been a no-no? Bidgood may well be a nutjob but it seems there is a desperation to make this a lot more of an issue than it really is.
They’re picking their fights quite well at the moment. But they’re going to fighting the Senate all the way till the next election.
And as someone who despised the way JWH treated the senate, I say good on it.
And as someone who agrees with PJK, I say unrepresentative swill get out of the bloody way!
If anyone cares what I think, I find it in rather poor taste of Scorpio at #40 to promote the fact that De-Anne Kelly’s son is on a drugs charge. What the hell has that got to do with anything?
Well if taking a photo of somebody rates a mention…
OEIOLE = people foe english speakers!
Another non-story, IMHO, but at least it directly involves a sitting member of parliament.
I don’t understand why the connection was made in the original article.
After all, he is an adult, and there is no suggestion the alleged crime was aided by his mum.
Quite so, ShowsOn.
Less sure – not really my area – my Homeland security opinion is based on views of how effective such a dept has been in the USA.
I guess it boils down to could the navy be better served doing other things besides picking up the odd people smuggler and illegal fishing boat (in between hot romance between Nav and ET
), or would getting a coast guard be more $$$ and less efficient.
I think there’s merit in saying this group only do coast guard duties, and this mob can go round in submarines etc.
But as I say, I’m only putting forth a completely ignorant opinion
Kelly was a sitting member during the period the offences allegedly occured
Well she ain’t in now. Let it go. I don’t care about Nick Whitlam when I talk about Gough
I’m not fussed, but the question was asked
Someone who had worked with Bidgod extensively rang ABS Sydney radio this morning and informed us that Bidgood not only worked for the Illawarra Mercury as a press photographer. but had run a successful photography business independently of any media association. So he has photogrphy in his blood.
I dare say if the guy had immolated himself Bidgood would not have handed over the photos at any price.
It was a stunt on behalf of the guy with the petrol that turned out happily in the end. It got publicity for the poor demented Russian bloke and provided $1,000 to charity.
I really cannot see the problem.
It’s just another reaosn why I would hate to be an MP (and why I have no probs with them getting a pay rise) their life and that of their families is considered everyone’s business.
Palin and her kids
Bracks and his son
Hawke and his daughter
unless it’s like Reith and his son’s phone bill, I don’t want to know
Given the relative lack of ’scandals’ by this first term Government, it seems the bar has been lowered as a result
Geez.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24751329-23109,00.html
With the end of parliament (or are they coming back for another day?) sdilly season has officially begun:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=682061
Haven’t heard Shorten referred to as a “rising star” for a while…
Err, B.B, whether or not photography is in his blood , when confronted by someone who may kill themselves imminently, the appropriate response is not a photograph. That the photographer is a parliamentarian, or vice versa (reminds me of the “Who called the chef a ****” joke), who thinks that the GFC is his invisible friend’s idea of retribution and reckoning, and there’s a plot afoot in relation to global banks and stuff, that’s further proof of “the end of days”, is frankly just weird.
Because he’s not.
Was the person not being restrained by people? If 50 people are standing near someone who passes out and falls over, do they all have to drop everything and help the person up? Come on…
William @ 56′
No offense meant but just pointing out that some were commenting on Bidgood’s error of judgment and yet there are circumstances where it is unwise to throw stones because no one is immune from damage to their reputation from either their own actions or those of people close to them.
The exact words I said;
If that is enough to receive censure from you, then I think I have sadly misjudged you.
If you feel that my contributions to this blog are inappropriate, then maybe I should refrain from any posting and just occasionally visit to see what others feel about the subjects that you put up for comment.
Grog @ 79. The shrink who works with me, gets pay TV from India, which reported some remarkable things about the planning and preparation for the Mumbai attack. If such reporting is to be believed, both were very professionally done and very sophisticated, suggesting lead times of at least 18 months to instigate such an attack. Seven of the attackers were U.K. born, disaffected Pakistani youth.
There is currently “17″ news items on De-Anne Kelly’s son on Google News!
I don’t think it is now, somehow an issue, that will not be a talking point in some circles or other.
Scorpio, I did say “if anyone cares what I think” – you’re entitled to not care in this case, as distinct from when I exercise my authority as moderator.
Dario, I don’t know if the person was being restrained. I’ve not heard or seen anything to inform me on that score. The point I’m making is that if someone is genuinely, in extremis, that taking a photograph is hardly likely to be helpful, and is, in my view, paparazzi like. Common sense could prevail, if he had any. Someone fainting with 50 folk about is hardly a comparison.
I’m guessing it won’t stop the right wing media from carrying on with the line that it was done to deliberately ‘test’ Obama
HSO, here’s some of the photos in question. There is a copper trying to deal with the situation in the first picture. If Bidgood had run in instead what do you think the headlines would have been?
http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-blasts-labor-mp-in-cashforphoto-row-20081203-6qnv.html
Taking a photograph of someone dousing themselves in petrol is paparazzi like??? Wtf? The paparazzi PURSUE their subjects specifically for a photo. Please don’t even try to compare that to this.
That’s just the point. I do care. It has “never” been my intention to belittle other posters or test your tolerance on the line of comments I contribute.
I have not been very well for the past couple of years similar to a number of other posters here and have gained a lot of enjoyment from contributing to discussion and putting forward issues that other have missed.
Again, I do care how you take my contribution and if I have caused offence, for that I opologise as none was ever intended.
Thank you, Scorpio. I’m glad you enjoy the site.
Sorry, the photos in that link above were from the Canberra Times. Here is the news.com photo Bidgood took, well after the guy had been subdued
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,24745230-2,00.html
Naked short selling ban bill has passsed
http://news.smh.com.au/national/short-selling-bill-passes-parliament-20081204-6rhn.html
apologise!
I think the Bidgood drama was an overreaction by Rudd, probably based on minimal information. Any photos I have seen appear to have been taken when police were dealing with the issue or subsequently. More disturbing were his comments about the financial crisis being the wrath of god. The logical(?) from this line of thinking is that politicians shouldn’t do anything because everything is the will of god. Why bohter seeking election then?
Scorpio, all I’ve done is state my opinion, and it hasn’t changed. I probably shouldn’t have the words “the hell” in my original comment. For that at least I apologise.
WB My thinking was that scorpio was just correcting his own spelling
I think comments by Bidgood and the MP who complained about the food at Parliament House and the Member for Robertson have simply shown us that when a Government wins a big victory they are bound to bring in some people who will do the wrong thing…I am sure after the 1996 landslide there were Coalition MPs who made just as many errors as these MPs and in all fairness their actions will have consequences…most likely that will happen in 2010.
#89: Ah, I see. Sorry about that as well (if correct).
Grog @ 89,
Spot on!
90 Glen, Kay Hull also complained about the food
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/annabel-crabb/stroganoff-affair-mp-says-sorry/2008/09/18/1221330977822.html
Yes Glen, wasn’t it 3 of his own ministers whom Howard sacked in his first year. One would have thought that such people would have known better than first timers.
Gratefully accepted!
Well it’s time at least Howard did sack Ministers who were doing the wrong thing or underperforming…if only Rudd have the gumption to sack Swan…
which underperforming minister did Howard sack????
I bet Hockey didn’t have the intestinal fortitude to attempt to reprimand Ms Hull.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/annabel-crabb/stroganoff-affair-mp-says-sorry/2008/09/18/1221330977822.html
Somlyay
In September 2006, some idiot wrote the following and signed my name:
Whoops. Obviously the state has turned things around. Antony Green puts Victoria 2009 determination at 36.66.
That leaves open the problem that Victoria may have a redistribution triggered under the seven year rule in early 2010 that would be unlikely to be completed in time for an election later that year.
But Swan hasn’t done anything wrong. And underperformance is relative. Performing better than Turnbull and then Bishop might be seen as underperformance but you only have to be a little better than your opponents. Perhaps if the opposition had someone more challenging then Swan would lift his performance.
NOTE: It’s Time, to do blockquotes, just put [ and ] on either side of the quote – The Management.
I don’t get this obsession with Swan.
He’s far from my favourite politician and not as good in Parliament as Tanner or Gillard but he’s doing a fine job policy wise and selling the message. The polls say the public thinks he’s fine as well.
Isn’t he back on the front bench!?
Alex has been since 1998.
Oz Swan couldnt sell you an umbrella on a rainy day!
He is the government’s weakest link because he never sounds sure of himself…struggles in QT and has made some woeful policy errors.
I have heard Bidgood ask a question in QT, the guy sounds like a good bloke. So he may have made a slight mistake, but I agree with BB, there is no way that is a hanging offence.
Yes Grog, anything that’s said in relation to the bible – is loony land stuff!
And Glen “if only Rudd had the gumption to sack Swan”. Swan is the best treasurer since Keating, he is a real economist. Not like his predecessor. If anybody dosen’t believe it they know nothing about economics, or have never seen QT. Like the old saying “if you throw enough mud, it sticks”!
Woeful policy errors? Only in the fevered imagination of Turnbull and the conservative drones. Where are the disinterested parties like academic economists criticizing the government’s economic policies?
And yet the latest polling suggest that Australians prefer Swan the previous mob?
Odd eh?
I don’t really see that? Like I said, he’s not a brilliant performer but he doesn’t “Struggle”. He defends his position well and counter attacks.
I think considering the fact that virtually all of his policies have been on the advice of, or have the support of, the RBA and Treasury they can’t really be considered “woeful”.
Centre…Bidgood sounds like a Pom.
Oz Swanny and Rudd never talked to the RBA Gov about their stupid bank deposit safeguards and they ended up making a meal of it!
Those who think Swan is no good in QT should get their eyes and ears checked. Seriously.
The Treasurer’s department did and the RBA is on the record saying they support it.
I take offence to you calling our trusted, national regulators “stupid.
It’s un-Australian and shameful.
The Parliament House food issue would probably have received far less, as in no, media attention if the owner of the catering company, which had only very, very recently taken on the contract, wasn’t married to a senior political journo who went on and on about it in the days and weeks afterward.
It may well be that the complainants were trying it on, but it may equally be true that there was the odd hiccup.
That’s coz he was born in the UK.
Anyway – people’s accents isn’t necessarily a predictor of what their character is. That said, Alexander Downer, with his Jar Jar Binks-accent, is an exception to this rule…
Sign #235646 that your country is screwed – police enforced dress codes:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24753220-23109,00.html
Who was that?!
That’s because of this!
[Bidgood was born in the United Kingdom and grew up in the East End of London.}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bidgood_(Australian_politician)
I’m guessing the terrible chefs at the Hyatt Canberra (the old caterers) have plenty of hooks in with the pollies – after all, most of them head there for post-QT drinks when Parliament sits…
Shows On @ 115. What the hell is wrong with those people? Women can’t wear tight pants! Guys can’t wear a spiky hair style!
Loooony Tunes! The lot of them. What is their problem?
Absolutely wrong, HSO. A press photographer is always a press photographer. If you’ve never been one, then it’s hard to understand. You shoot first, ask (yourself) questions later.
In this case the ending was a “happy” one and the charity benefited from it.
Can’t see the problem at all.
OK, perhaps I’m being disingenuous. It’s sort-of, maybe, perhaps, unseemly for a polly to be snapping pikkies outside Parliament House, but only if you take a very restricted view of politicians. They have lives outside of their work. They have histories that are hard to relinquish. For mine, Bidgood doing what he loves to do and has a career of doing is perfectly natural. That he sought not to profit from it and instead turned his photographs into a benefit for a chosen charity is something that should be praised, even if it is admittedly a little odd. But no more than that: unusual, but hardly beyond the pale.
As a side issue: I often think the biggest wowsers are from the Left. No reason for that being the case: it just is.
Fortunately that nice Mr Rudd agrees with me about the photos.
I totally agree that his millenarian views are much more of a problem. I’m surprised Dario and a few others are so comfortable having someone in Parliament who thinks the world is about to end and that God has punished us with the GFC. That level of detachment from reality is delusional and frankly dangerous.
Well you’ve just lost both Rudd and Turnbull.
We were right a few days ago , th Libs would back down on Education Bill…and now they hav ….all that money allocated in Bill to private schools must hav resulted in them inundating Libs to pass it
Of course Libs & Private Schools realize where Julia’s trojan horse is heading , but do not knoiw how to stop it First that Nation curiculum , then publishing of results (now that will cause jitters , alegedly top private schools charging a fortune and marks may be no better than less expensive private schools
Of course after that , expect funding will be tied to ‘disclosure’ of “donations” Will be interested to see how they tie up to School commission submissions over years
If process of horsey gets to end game , there may be comparative tax payers monies assessed that directly provide rich schools with state of art facilities matched for benefit/outcomes to poor private & public schools whos facilities ar appaling i can see alot of squirming and red herrings thrown up in future to divert th trojan horsey down th last rack
Press photographers are notoriously sleazy and unprincipled. So are politicians but at least they’re meant to pretend they’re not.
Vera , our Education discussion forcasting Libs backdown
It may be that Israel is preparing a send off to GWB and an unappreciated welcome to the White House for Obama.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24750795-401,00.html
Well, if you’ve got a hate up against the guy, who am I to buck the power of the Lefty wowsers?
I hereby withdraw from the Bidgood case. Good luck to youse all trying to crucify him. for mine, I think it’d be easier to get a life.
Perhaps this might get you on board, BB.
You just know there’s going to be trouble about this. A new Lego-style range complete with a Muslim suicide bomber and terrorist. Osama bin Lego. The photo’s pretty cute.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2002041.ece
Dario back @ 81, sorry, just got headed off at the pass by life, I suppose. I conclude from what you have posted (for which, thanks) that the police were trying to talk him away from any precipitate action, and were successful in doing so. What I find disturbing, and described as paparazzi like, is people inserting themselves into the national media, via photographs taken by a parliamentarian, and that includes the bozzo from Dawson. And does the parliamentarian in question have any clear idea in his mind about what is the role of a member of parliament, local representative, contributor to the development of policy for the party he serves? Apart from what his invisible friend tells him?
I will keep an open mind about the Hon. Member for Dawson, for now, but he hasn’t impressed on first outing.
William,
Bidgood might be right after all. This to follow on from my post at 126.
That’s quite a lot of fire crackers and if the big boys get involved then???
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,23765222-401,00.html
Diogenes,
I think I prefer the video game rather than the real thing.
On the contrary, his religious attitudes scare the bejesus out of me, but I fail to see what that has with him taking photos of someone
William & BB
William , I don’t see th relevance of that religous quote is to th photograpgh
What th quote is this guy is unrepresentative of his electors , and for mine should stand as an independent (and would lose) and has no pace in a mainstream politcal party (Labor or Liberal)
Photograpgh shows something else …BB is quite wrong to assert a pollie following his hobby of taking photos is excused “as a photohrapher” from every other normal human reactions to actualy save th human immediately by instinct This is a separate ground to suggest th guy has no basic decency judgment at all , and should be representing any voter He has no place in th Party , and would only remain on pregmetic ’seat’ politcs reasons
I’m putting good money on it that those statements about God causing the GFC isn’t the first stupid thing Bidgood has said. And there just has to be some intrepid journalist trawling through his past speeches a la Reverend Wright. If I was the journalist, I’d be starting just after 9/11.
It’s hard to beat a bit of publicity.
Bidgood and his revelation currently rating 135 news stories on Google News.
Not bad for just over a day!
If you are minding your own business outside Parliament house and someone chucks a mental, it’s not paparazzi-like to take a photo, it’s human nature. Chasing someone in a car 7 days a week with a camera at the ready is paparazzi-like, and the two shouldn’t be compared.
Kerist Almighty, B.B. Take away the particular case being argued. Imagine, for example, yourself being so distraught about your situation that you douse yourself with petrol and threaten to set yourself alight in a public place. Can you do that? You ant photographs with that?
Dario
They are quite separate and unrelated. Although they are two instances of this guy stuffing up. I’m glad you were only referring to the photo not being a problem (although I disagree). You were getting me worried there.
Shows how little the media cares about policy… in that time how many pieces of legislation have been through parliament, and how many things discussed in QT?
Diogenes, you could probably put a bit of money on the rest of us at some time or another having said something a bit goofy too.
One good thing though, we don’t have the MSM trailing along behind to allert the rest of the world to it.
That is something Bidgood will have to learn and quickly, I would think.
Yeah, and you can bet if he was a Lib, that it would have barely got a mention, if at all.
HSO
On the self-immolation thing. Although they often get terrible burns (and quite a few die), they actually do surprisingly well mentally after. Some commit suicide after, but quite a few do well. Perhaps they concentrate on their burns and rehab instead of whatever was causing them to be mentally unwell. We get quite a few who do it as inpatients, in prison or outside court.
I would bet that Abbott and Fielding have even more ridiculous loony views and beliefs. The only difference is that Bidgood opened his mouth.
Ron there have been a few backdowns in past couple of days by them Libs. Murray water bill, Education bill and expect another backdown before weekend on the Infrastructure bill, being blocked because libs are concerned about pork barrelling no less!!!!
I’m with BB on photogate, mountains outa molehills
At least he didn’t go over with a match and offer the bloke a smoke.
Looks like Turnbull & Bishop’s imaginations have got the better of them again.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24751221-26103,00.html
Their country is run by a minority of people who want to control the majority of people, and one way of doing so is by enacting and enforcing absolutely absurd laws that act as a threat to make the majority of people conform to other even more absurd and stupid laws.
About Half of the Liberal party (the right wing / conservative faction) probably agrees with his views.
Dario, I take your point about the difference, but I’d suggest, if not paparazzi like, which was probably an ill-chosen descriptor, then, how about really insensitive, lacking in common sense and ill considered. And he believes in an invisible friend, who does nasty things to the global economy, cos….retribution & the reckoning, etc.
Oz @ 116 – Tony Wright
BTW, just found this:
[Ms Wright, who took over the catering contract in July, admitted there were still come teething problems.
“It (Parliament House) is an incredibly large building … but we are working it out,” she told ABC Radio today.
Customers have had to adjust from self-service to receiving set portions.
“It has been difficult because the previous contractor had serve-yourself portions.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,24364908-5006922,00.html
As for the photographer/part time pollie, according to someone that was there, Bidgood only began talking about giving the money to charity when it eventually dawned on him that propositioning the media probably wasn’t a good look and when asked which charity he wanted the money sent to couldn’t think of one. Guess he hasn’t been following one of Rudd’s first edicts about getting involved with the less fortunate.
Diogenes, the first suicide I was involved with was of a young woman who doused herself with petrol and set herself alight. She took 3 days to die, and it was truly awful. Are you doing a burns unit?
vera
Posted Thursday, December 4, 2008 at 10:58 pm | Permalink
“Ron there have been a few backdowns in past couple of days by them Libs”
Looks like they’ve invented a new back step shuffle dance Vera
Bidgood was already in Rudd’s bad books. It turns out that he described Rudd’s actions in Phonegate as “indiscreet”. He retracted that a few hours later.
Julia Gillard just said “A silly set of propositions by the opposition” about 16 times in a row.
A good interview with her but she stacked it at the end.
And the Canberra Times journalist who also took photographs?
Shocking footage on Lateline concerning dental health in nursing homes.
The Minister has urged the dentist who took the photos to send his report directly to her, but I think Rudd should intervene.
The Editor of the Telegraph which first ran the story & pictures tells a different story than that.
I think this one can go into the same box as Rudd’s dog, nanny and butler. Libs grasping at any feeble thing.
news.com denied that he asked for money, just that he wanted a donation made to charity
HSO
Yep, I’ve been in the Burns Unit here for five years. I should point out that the police or security guys did a great job in that case, not just from a bravery point of view. You can actually die without setting fire to yourself if you’re covered in petrol. It can cause a chemical burn and lung damage. They washed him off with water and saved him.
She is the wife of Tony Wright
WOW I didn’t know that Clare Martin was now CEO of ACOSS.
In other news, Barnaby Joyce thinks the economic stimulus package is going to result in an increase in rape.
ron
Dancing with the pollies? Isn’t that a TV show?
Name a political reporter more boring than Tony Wright…
GO!
HSO and william… I’d love to argue all night with youse, but I said I’d had enough of the Bidgood Affair and I have to stick with that.
Suffice it to say that my argument cares not either way for Bidgood’s religious beliefs. They’re irrelevant to my mind. And as to the morality of his situation, HSO, you should know better than to judge others by your own beliefs as to what is proper and decent.
Now it really is “to bed” for me.
G’night all.
This is unusual, the media accusing the media of inciting terrorism. Makes some very telling points too and well backed up. Well worth a read.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24747361-7583,00.html
Dario
“If you are minding your own business outside Parliament house and someone chucks a mental, it’s not paparazzi-like to take a photo, it’s human nature”
Bullsh.t
.
Human nature is to instinctively either try to stop th guy or alternatively seek to find Security/police to prevent someone torching themselves
I suppose its human nature to witness a head on car crash and pull out your nippon camera , rather than instinctively try to render assistance
And yet he kept quiet about all of Johnny’s handouts… does that make him a rape accomplice?
The police had already stopped him torching himself. Look at the photo.
Ronster, read more about human nature. Those words put in that order actually mean something.
Don’t be racial now Ronster, you mean Nikkon.
Oh I see so I suppose its human nature to witness a head on car crash and NOT pull out your nippon camera , rather than instinctively try to render assistance….and only do so after th medics hav arrived
Only an indecent person takes photos of tragedys , and th victim is one
Why’s he keep calling it a “nippon” camera?
“Sino” reflects more on accurately on where it’s manufactured.
Human nature existed well before cars and cameras was my point.
This is completely absurd! Some of the most famous photos in history have been of people being killed, or killing themselves, such as:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Nguyen.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Ngoc_Loan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/The_Falling_Man.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_man
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Burningmonk.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c
WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT IN ALL OF THE ABOVE LINKS
Are you honestly saying that none of these photos should’ve been taken? Or are you just saying they shouldn’t be published?
I think it was extremely important for the photos to be taken and for them to be distributed.
I assume it is a typo. I think he means Nikon.
I don’t think he is deliberately being racist, it just sounds like it.
Or a photographer, or former photographer. How else would we have photos of tradegies the world over?
I think we should call it a ‘Ronno’
And so to bed for me, as well. Bushie, there is a difference between being judgmental and making an informed judgement, as I think you well know.
Dario, taking photos of someone in an invidious situation is, just, well distasteful at the very least.
Barnaby reckons the economic stimulus package is going to result in more rapes? No, c’mon, surely not, what a day for stupid comments!
How? Why? It’s not a full moon is it?
Another religious loooony tune, no doubt.
This was his reasoning – More money means more people buy alcohol, more people buy alcohol the more they want to have sex, the more they want to have sex, the more likely they are to rape someone.
Barnaby obviously hasn’t considered the possibility that people will just take the cash and spend it on a prostitute! Thus saving the need to buy alcohol, and commit a criminal offense.
I’m sure many professional photograpers in war zones around the world would agree with you
As I said earlier, I wonder what his view on Johnny’s handouts over the years was…
It’s human nature to run away from potential danger, it’s either brave or callous to stand there and photograph it. Bigood made a smallbad by being callous, but it’s not a hanger, however, my human nature tells me to ran as far away from end-of-timers as I can, and I hope they disendorse him.
To be fair, I think he broke ranks and said the Coalition should hand the baby bonus out as quarterly payments, rather than as a lump sum.
So I guess he is just trying to make the same point. But I don’t think he helped himself by linking the payments to rape.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that finds end of timers scary.
I mean, why should we care about the world and the future of humanity if the world is about to end and we can’t do anything about it?
It just makes me thankful Obama / Biden won, instead of Palin and that old guy.
No, I can’t imagine that was mentioned about the baby bonus… although the comparison would have been quite amusing!
What would you make of this healine inthe SMH? lol
Isn’t that where a certain ex PM lives?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/mosman-ready-for-rat-invasion/2008/12/03/1228257139088.html
He was a professional photographer in the past apparently
Can’t argue with that
This was his reasoning – More money means more people buy alcohol, more people buy alcohol the more they want to have sex, the more they want to have sex, the more likely they are to rape someone.
Um…wouldn’t lowering taxes on alcohol produce the same outcome? Particularly, if the alcoholic product was being marketed to the young, i.e. hormones on legs, a demographic not renowned for exercising restraint whilst p*ssed as newts?
This is Barnaby we are talking about… logic rarely comes in to it
Well we hav 3 red herrings going all at once to camoflage Bidgood’s indecent cold blooded action
you will find Kevin Rudd agreeing with me , thats why Bidgood got a well deserved roost from his rh man Unlike yous guys Rudd’s team didn’t hav partisan glases on , it was a non natural distasteful action , and he was told that bluntly , and i’m sure no other MP would hav done Labor or Liberal , so yous defenses look quite lame
As to ‘paid’ photographers , those that give us pictures of tragedys before rending assistance ar also indecent I tink , and most people would prefer assistance given …and happy to miss out on th tragedy photo if there is a choise , exceept strange minds What sort of people would feel otherwise
Whats this racial herring , so its not nippon but nikkon is a brand , just missed out a few letters along th way Reel point is he pulled out a camera and it has a brand name , and his camera should not hav been pulled out , and also he is an MP not a news photogrpgher anyway
when yous guys back yourself into an over partisan corner , you look quite inconsistent criticising oppositions like Bishop’s foolish hand signal to julia for also doing stupid things
Dario @ 179. As I’m sure you’re aware, there are prices to be paid. And there’s a discussion to be had, if William would allow. I suspect William would want it to relate even tangentially to psephy stuff.
Really have to exit stage left and catch up with you tomorrow.
Oooohhh, if people have got money, then they can party, drink alcohol, feel horny, and have sex.
What a scream! Barnaby can go where the goodies go, we’ll go where Paris, Lindsay and Brittany go LOL.
On the end of timers – have you noticed them consistently advertising in the financial section of the News Ltd websites?
I mean, why should we care about the world and the future of humanity if the world is about to end and we can’t do anything about it?</i.
Even more scary is that some of the End of Timers want to hasten the End by encouraging the wars, etc, that are supposed to trigger the Rapture.
ShowsOn @ 172
Would it not be a good idea to put the graphic content warning above the links not below them?
Argument from authority. Try again.
How do you render assistance to a person who has jumped from the World Trade Center when you are standing on the ground?
I proposed that you WEREN’T deliberately being racial, but it would’ve been good if you corrected yourself earlier to dispel that impression.
You’re the one being partisan, you are agreeing with whatever Kevin Rudd says.
It’s a photo of a person being saved.
Since when has it been morally wrong to take a photo of someone being saved? What was he supposed to do, grab the bucket of water off the copper and tell him he’s doing it all wrong? Move closer so that he’s in the way and asked to move back? Grab a police radio and start screaming mayday into it?
Emotional response to witnessing someone saved from mortal danger: releif – joy – happiness? isn’t that likely to have been Bidgood’s state of mind at the time he took the picture?
SNIP: You know this won’t do, Dario – The Management.
SNIP: +1 – The Management.
Are you saying that the following text wasn’t enough of a warning in itself?
If you are worried the internet may offend you, don’t click ANY links under ANY circumstances.
Oh of course. This is why fundamentalist Christians support certain extremist elements in Israel, because they think that their success will lead to nuclear conflict with Iran.
Liberals’ second-in-charge needs to lift her game and soon – Michelle Grattan
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/liberals-secondincharge-needs-to-lift-her-game-and-soon-20081204-6rhc.html
The heat is on.
200 Gary
When the less than intellectual political press gallery is that far ahead of you, you really have to question your skills as a politician.
It’s like Grattan is giving her daughter the speech after she’s just scraped enough marks to go to university or something.
Also – is Bishop still in charge of the Libs policy review?
Yeah right…
ShowsOn and Dario
So Rudd’s chief of staff gives Bidgood a drssing down for taking th photo ….but not yous you still want to defend Bidgood
Yous ar past being over partisan , you ar out of step with Labor
Not surprising seeing your defense of Bidgood is quite out of strp with normative decency standards anyway
Instead of simply saying th guy made a stupid callous decision , you’ve continued to defend him , and with th support i’d guess of few in community ….and certainly not th Federal Labor party
I haven’t mentioned Bidgood once in this thread. All I have done is demonstrate that your ‘rules’ for determining when it is acceptable to take a photo of someone are completely incoherent, because they are contradicted by some of the most famous photos of all time.
NO WAY! Are you suggesting that thinking logically is no longer a core left policy!?
I thought the left invented reason and rationality.
Quote any post of mine from this thread that defends Bidgood’s actions. I haven’t even MENTIONED his actions in this thread. You’re boxing at shadows as usual Ronster, and are completely missing the point of my posts.
A spokesman for Kevin Rudd said the actions of the MP were “deeply offensive”. It is understood Mr Bidgood was called into the Prime Minister’s office and ordered to apologise to parliament and write a letter of apology to the family. It is also reported Bidgood got prior dresing down from Rudd’s Chief of staff
Well who agrees with Kevin Rudd vs who still defends Bidgood’s actions?
Guys , no evasions , simple choise
A bit of advice from Germany’s conservative Chancellor Angela Merkel to the Canadians about running a coalition government.
Basically it seems, strap yourself in, don’t sit in the middle and hold on tight for an interesting ride.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081204.wcoalition04/BNStory/International/home
“discombobulated”
Greatest word to have ever been published in the media.
Harper to meet G-G in less than an hour.
Dare I stay up!?!
“discombobulated”’
Yeah. I tried to Google it to find out what it meant and it crashed my computer.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/alcohol-ads-must-go-della-bosca/2008/12/04/1228257229300.html
Surely this outweighs any economic benefits to be gained from advertising?
This is an interesting economic analysis by George Megalogenis. The comments are well worth a read too.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/meganomics/index.php/theaustralian/comments/number_crunchers_missed_turn/
This here doesn’t help the Coalition’s latest attack on Labor re the refugee/boat people issue.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/arrests-crack-peoplesmuggling-ring-20081204-6rp9.html
This will all be forgotten in another week.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/04/2438390.htm?section=justin
Harry Jenkins as Speaker concluded his investigation as stated on security matters , and of course found security had not been interferred with
But it does not change th fact Rudd dressing Bitgood down , nor fact Rudd’s chief of Staff dressing him down , nor fact Rudds spokesman said the actions of the MP were “deeply “offensive” nor fact Bidgood was called into the Prime Minister’s office and ordered to apologise to parliament and write a letter of apology to the family
Defenders arguments of Bitgood’s actions ar in tatters ….proved BY Rudd’s reactions alone , apart from common decency
Whilst th event may be forgotton in a week newswise , am not sure that his photo action/religous comments will be when pre selection s arise in 2010…. i wouldn’t pre select him on either ground
Amigo FINNS
Tonite have done my Amigo “bit of good” ….’Bitgood’ defenders have surrendered….in silence , but I did not address a curious “psephology” post tonite this being a politcal site & tinking you with th Macchu Piccu ‘knowledge trees’ inspirations could psephologicaly unravel for me :
“More money means more people buy alcohol, more people buy alcohol , the more they want to have sex..”
Did thought th first two conditions were quite irrelevant to th third
Canadian GG agrees to Harper’s request to prorogue Parliament:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/harper-jean.html
As expected.
What an utter shambles the Opposition are:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/05/2438417.htm
I note that the responsible shadow minister in the Senate refused to vote in support of his own Cabinet’s decision.
About Bidgood and that photo. The person who doused himself with petrol to protest would have wanted the photo taken to aid in his protest. Instead the story is now about the photographer not the protester, all for political point scoring.
Amigo Ronnie, are u emulating the Cat woman by bloggin at 2am?
i am also thinking about my Maccu Picchu “Knowledge Tree”, because i wonder how long can it last?
President Elect Obi has made big splash on his economic team, security team etc. Of which, basically, the old Clinton Teams in disguise. But we forgive him, especially his wise decision and now arm-in-arm with Hillary.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/her-majesty-queen-noor/hillary-clinton—a-champ_b_147699.html
But I am not forgiving him for making NO splash at all on his Environment Team, CC, Kyoto etc. This should be his next big splash, else we will put him under the bus as per usual.
btw: Diog’s silence on this issue is also deafening. And where is Amigo GG?
ltep @ 215,
from a story on Canadian English google news …
We must remember this is only a reprieve for Harper, his troubles are still very much with him
Ronster
Bidgood’s photographic escapades will be forgotten as an error of judgement and taste in a few days. His comment that the GFC was an Act of God will haunt him forever to his political grave. Imagine how the poor bastards in his electorate who are losing their jobs feel about being part of divine retribution.
If the Ruddster had a genius solution which would fix the GFC with the flick of a switch, Bidgood would oppose Rudd fixing it. The Opposition are going to make mincemeat of him and Labor. Turnbull is going to ask “What credibility does a Party have on the economy if one of it’s members thinks God caused the GFC and we’re entering the “end of days” predicted in Revelation?”
Finns
Obi’s not even POTUS yet! Let’s wait until he gets there before we apportion blame. Anyway, under Ron’s agreement with me, the failure of the world to change it’s emission enough to avert global warming falls squarely in Hillary’s lap. Obi can take a little bit of the blame if he doesn’t cut US domestic use. I’m still using 20% reduction by 2020 based on 1990 emissions as my gold standard. We’ll compare Obi and Rudd.
I see the media is making a big deal of the $600k cost of Rudd’s overseas trips in the first half of the year. Someone remind me how much it cost to shuttle Howard between Sydney and Canberra every day because the missus wasn’t impressed by the Lodge. I seem to recall it was about $1 million a year. I do know that $100k went on silk wallpaper and imported mattresses for one of the Howard Air 737s.
Hurray for Harps!!!
Juliem public opinion will destroy this subversive attempt to steal the reins of government in Canada now that Harper has until January to survive…
Also there are cracks already forming in the Liberal Party even now on the Coalition agreement….
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081204/opposition_reaction_AM_081204/20081204?hub=TopStories
Cracks in coalition staring to show: Liberal MP
This Friday sitting of parliament is a little less rowdy than the last one.
Looks like Canadians still want Harper in power….
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/parliament-poll.html
Support for Tories up amid House crisis, CBC-EKOS poll suggests
“According to the poll, Stephen Harper’s Conservatives received 44 per cent of respondents’ support, up from the 37.6 per cent support the Tories received in the federal election that returned them to Ottawa with another minority government just seven weeks ago.
The results suggest support for Stéphane Dion’s Liberals is down two percentage points from the election with 24 per cent of respondents’ support, while the New Democrats are down almost four percentage points at 14.5 per cent support.
Meanwhile, the NDP received 14.5 per cent of respondents’ support, while the Bloc was at nine per cent and the Greens at eight per cent.”
I’m trying to work out Ron’s angle on this… apparently as Labor supporters we are not allowed to disagree with the views of the almighty Rudd on ‘Immogate’. Ron, do you disagree with Rudd on any issue?
According to Ronster, if we disagree with Rudd then that means we are party hacks!
It makes PERFECT sense.
The Liberals just imploded in the Senate.
Yes, I’m totally confused
Details Oz?
Itep linked earlier:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/05/2438417.htm
I doubt the media will focus on it much
David Kirk, Fairfax CEO, resigned today.
The media here are getting slaughtered.
There’s no doubt the government has the opposition shadow cabinet spooked.
Well that’s largely what they’ve been doing for the last 12 years…
I actually agreed with some of he amendments put forward, especially regarding increased transparency.
It was just covered on ABC News, including footage of the division.
I stand corrected. Perhaps the ABC is feeling the spirit of the season?
It’s now the head line story on The Australian website:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24754820-601,00.html
There you go… a nice Christmas present for the ALP
Why would the Libs end the Parliamantary year on such a bad note? It’s just going to raise questions about the leadership team over the Christmas break. They really need a goog, long hard look at themselves over summer. Their discipline is terrible, especially when compared to the iron rule Rudd has over Labor.
Wow, it is the FIRST story on ABC TV1’s Midday Report.
Talk about a stupid way to insert themselves as the headline act for the media Silly Season over the next 5 weeks.
Foot, meet shotgun.
Any sign of leadership problems is grist for the mill as far as the media goes. I’m not surprised.
Julie Bishop performing poorly, Turnbull being ignored. If ever there was a party in trouble this is it.
ho ho ho – I’m really enjoying this Christmas already
Every paper I’ve seen this morning is belting the Libs on a number of fronts
It really is a Merry Christmas
Robb blames Labor for their stuff up in the Senate. Say what?
It’s looking really bad for Turnbull. His “team” is leaking like a sieve. The Opposition opposition are making sure that the journos know the split was a deliberate challenge to Turnbull. Even Dennis has caned him.
Hah ShowsOn and you think the media is biased against Rudd…we Libs never get a thing!
Now it doesnt matter how well Julie performs because the media have got it out for her they’re never going to let up…this in spite of the fact Swan is doing little better if not worse!
The Howardistas just won’t die will they
It is soooo amusing
Glen
Why can’t Turnbull keep his team behind him? You are a rabble at the moment.
Where have I EVER said that THE MEDIA is biased against Rudd?
I don’t even accept the concept of “THE MEDIA”.
Julie Bishop’s problem is that she is one of the most over rated members of the federal parliament. She was a mediocre education minister who basically didn’t do anything. Her crowning achievement was the push for a national curriculum, but now she is deputy leader of a party who spent most of the last few weeks opposition a national curriculum!
The longer she remains deputy leader the easier things will be for the government.
Because which ever way they look at him they see an arse?
So who would you have replace her with if she’s so terrible?
I think Abbott is being wasted where he is, i dont want him to be leader but he was a senior minister for some years…
Glen, your attack on Swan lacks one very important ingredient – fact. Swan started off nervously but he has performed well. He is not one of Labor’s star performers, granted, but neither is he as bad as you want the characterise him as being. On that score Bishop leaves him for dead.
Well after today’s antics in the Senate….
BRING BACK NELSON!
Gary did you see QT yesterday?? Did you see how Swan bumbled his way around not answering a question on setting up a new Government Bank…Jenkins called him to answer it 4 times before he sat down…he is not getting better IMHO.
Besides Glen, attacking Labor members will not sove the myriad of problems your side face.
By all means bring Abbott, that John Howard and Workchoices fan, to the fore. What an addition to Labor’s cause. Drag out someone from the past to go into the future.
Glen, did you see Swan say in QT (which I did watch by the way) that the proposition Bishops put up about the bank were absurd?
Shannahan tries to prop up Turnbull’s corpse.
And then the Nationals come out with this!
The last sentence spells out exactly “WHO” is paying the political price!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24755034-17301,00.html
The Libs should have insisted on the amendments, work out a story to tell about it (”The Government could have had its infrastrucutre fund – our amendments concerned only a relatively small part, which was nevertheless set aside for improvements in country areas”) and let the Government do its worst. Would that be so hard?
Instead, they’ve allowed the Government to wedge them, and possibly lost a lot of trust in rural areas. AND the Government now knows how to wedge them again, if they ever need/want to. As a result of these actions, the Coalition have basically guaranteed they will face wedging of the city slickers against the hayseeds again, and they’ll eventually have to make a stand on some rural issue or another -and they may as well have taken whatever insults the government could throw at them now.
Great work guys! Time for some new tacticians! There are some reasonable tacticians in the Parliamentary Liberal Party. Sitting on the backbench, of course…
Once the Liberals have conceded that they’re going to lose the next election they should now focus on getting rid of Howard’s old guard in safe seats and replacing them with people who may be decent politicians, like Abbot, but aren’t tainted by so much of Howard’s rubbish.
Cossie will be leader before mid 09
I hope so. I want to see him lose an election as the leader of a party.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/annabel-crabb/no-love-from-la-gillardine/2008/12/04/1228257227521.html
So who is the real catwoman here?
We used to have one here at PB before she escaped to become one of the fugitives on the G Island. Or is it JB with her meow meow claw as per described by La Gillardine.
Or maybe, it is our amigo Ronster who was doing one hand bloggin at 2am like the old catwoman used to do.
The catwoman is in trouble according to La Michelle:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/liberals-secondincharge-needs-to-lift-her-game-and-soon-20081204-6rhc.html?page=-1
G’day William and fellow Bludgers, it’s good to be back!
Yes, what a rabble the Liberals are, last night’s vote in the senate was quite farcical!
Indeed, a rather humiliating week for Turnball, that tosser Pyne, and the others.
I guess the only success for the Libs was James Bidgood’s stuffup, which actually wasn’t as bad as the media made out. He’ll learn from it, he’s probably the sort of offbeat character people in Dawson want representing them.
And, I kinda agree with Glen, Tanner is a much better parliamentary performer than Swan.
Dario:
If Smirky is still member for Higgins in 6 months time, he’ll make a move on Turnball, if the polls haven’t moved in a positive direction for Malcolm.
Bring on the Liberal infighting!
Gary if it was absurd he should have said NO shouldnt he?
Annabel Crabb.
I used to like her and she sometimes comes up with insightful things but her shallow and pointless “analysis” of parliament is pretty dumb.
All she does is remember a few witty lines, change the names of the politicians to nicknames and publish it verbatim.
Tanner is one of the best politicians of our generation.
Swan doesn’t have to be a better parliamentary performer than Tanner to be an effective and hard-working treasurer.
I hope Swan stays Treasurer…but if Rudd wants to look competant then he should be removed in favour of Tanner.
But Tanner cant have it and neither can Julia because they are of the Left Faction of the ALP LOL! So the ALP ends up with Swan.
Glen, I’ll give you one Swan for a hundred Julies.
Err, no I won’t. How about one Bidgood for twenty Julies?
Exactly
Ill trade you the Member for O’Connor and the Member for Canning for Bidgood.
Bidgood can sit next to Alex Hawke….lol!
Alex Hawke is a time bomb waiting to damage the opposition.
It may not happen this term, or in 3 terms from now, but eventually he will be involved in something that will severely damage the Liberal party.
Geez you drive a hard bargain, Glen. One Armageddon guy for two flat earthers …. I don’t know…
Tuckey is how old in his 70s…why oh why cant we recruit someone in the 20s/30s to take his seat?????
But he is worth a laugh…didnt he and Keating almost come to fists???
What about Ruddock??? He’s doing jack all.
Yes but Ruddock actually did stuff while we were in Government he deserves to wait….Tuckey has done jack all…
Id stick Tuckey and Katter in a Room and lock it lol!
Glen what’s so different about saying an idea is absurd and saying no to it? Why would anyone introduce something that they reckon is absurd and would be reminded of their description of it in future if they did so?
I realise you come from the party of Howard where every word by your leader had to be analysed ten times and then some before you could believe a thing he said but this is ridiculous.
This talk by the Nats about betrayal of the bushby Libs and that the rural folk agreed to the sell off of telstra on condition of $2bill fund to be used on them is garbage.
I’m in rural NSW and the running poll (for 2 yrs before sell off) on local online newspaper site always had 75% AGAINST sell off.
If it was absurd as you claim then how come Swan A) didnt say it was absurd and B) wouldnt say No?
The Nats should come to their senses and merge with the Libs…
Glen, Swan DID say it was absurd. You want to play word games.
But saying it is absurd is not denying it, all he had to say was this…
‘We have no intention of creating a State owned bank, it is an absurd suggestion’
But he didnt…
Let me ask again Glen and please try and answer the question why would anyone introduce something that they reckon is absurd with the knowledge that they would be reminded of their description of it if they did so?
Well this is Swan we are talking about…
That’s a weak response Glen. I think I’ve made my point.
All Swan had to do was to say N O and that would have been the end of it.
Ooh goody! What English word have the most consecutive double letters
You wouldn’t believe him anyway. You don’t believe him when he describes the notion as absurd. Let me use synonyms for what Swan thinks of the idea. Ridiculous, silly, strange, illogical, meaningless, bizaarre, incongruous. Got it Glen? He doesn’t like the idea.
I’m with you Vera. Here in my part of rural NSW the mob were furious with the sale of Telstra. They still are, because we probably could all be using broadband now if it had the darn thing had been kept in our hands.
Here in my neck of the woods I can’t even use wireless – nearly 2009 and yet the dial-up is as slow as a wet week.
What’s so precious about rural Oz having a separate fund – Rudd & Co will probably use the $2b towards broadband or something else decent for us.
Glen – get off Swannie. At least he is an Economist – discusses, listens, takes advice from Treasury where Costello had to learn by rote whatever problem Treasury had to explain. He found it hard to grasp. Hence all the bluster, smirking and ‘blowhard’ stuff.
But I’ve had a good laugh at Minchin trying to spin his way out of not voting this a.m. – now it seems he went for a ‘wee and cuppa’ break at 1.30 a.m.
Dio, it was a statement not an invitation but seeing you asked, what?
WOW! Even Nick Minchin joins the “THE MEDIA” conspiracy theorists!
http://aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds041208.pdf
pp. 148 – 149
Why is it that Liberals adopt essentially Marxist media theories, but don’t ascribe to Marx’s economic philosophy?
Do the division bells ring in the dunny?
All clocks in the parliament have division bells and lights (red / green) in them. So if they have a clock near the loo, then surely they would be audible.
Who cares how a vote went in the Senate at 1:30am???
Maybe he couldn’t hear them over his ‘movement’
Amigo FINNS
Under th terms of th Armictice sought BY “G” Island ‘s representative diog , you will notice diog unambiguously agreed to Obama ( Not Hillary SOS) having reresponsibility for CC
Diogenes #771
Posted Sunday, November 23, 2008 at 9:04 pm | Permalink
“Ronster
Kyoto wouldn’t normally be a SOS job (for hillary) would it. Smith didn’t go to Bali, but Wong/Garrett did. I don’t think Condi (SOS) was there. Obi TAKES THE RAP on CC.”
Amigo , you will now note diog trying to elude his signed Armistice treaty terms , for which under th Armistice penance for breachs may be extradition to G Island:
Diogenes #221
Posted Friday, December 5, 2008 at 8:24 am | Permalink
“Ronster
Anyway, under Ron’s agreement with me, the failure of the world to change it’s emission enough to avert global warming FALLS SQUARELY in Hillary’s (SOS) lap…..Obi can take a little BIT of the blame if he doesn’t cut US domestic use.”
Having never been thru those Pearly Gates of Uni’s , is ‘disengenuous nuancing’ a required subbject
You know Glen, you may have a point? Who really cares what happens in parliament? You may also want to ponder that next time you make a big deal about Swan’s performance in parliament.
They actually have bells and lights in the toilet stalls and the bells would’ve been run for a substantial amount of time.
Only a sycophant would not acknowledge what an utter shambles the Coalition was on the issue. When are they going to get their act together?
Loved the bit from Minchin about the Government’s spin from its Media Machine!!
I bet he wishes that ‘Hyacinth’ was still checking the media 24/7 and ringing Canberra 10 times a day to tell the Libs what they should be counteracting. They can’t seem to get their stories straight.
Minchin says Rudd will waste the Nationals Telstra slushfund and David Johnson (Shadow Defence) was saying on ABC2 this a.m. that he was sure Rudd would spend it on the bush.
I’ve got to hand it to Fielding for putting The Nationals right in their place on the issue:
Who will be the first Nat to say Rudd has given the bushes $2 bill telsta sell off funds to the car dealers? lol
http://news.smh.com.au/national/deal-to-support-car-dealerships-swan-20081205-6s9e.html
Gary
Flooddoorroommanager
Raccoonnookkeeper
I have a mental image of the division bells going off while a senator is stuck on the dunny LOL
Glen, I admire you for defending them, but they are a sorry lot!
Another thing that can be noted about yesterday is that the Liberals’ attempt to start up a Senate Select Committee on the Bank Deposit Guarantee failed largely because the Liberal Party refused to make the membership of the committee balanced. Instead they wanted a rigged committee so they could make it say what they wanted it to say. A shameful waste of money.
307
That cracks me up
Me!
For the record, 2 Liberals voted for the amendments, 5 voted against it (i.e., with Labor), and 30 abstained!
Maybe the 30 of them were all in the dunny?
There are so many lines oen could respond to that with
Most of them were outside the locked doors.
Some of them were in the chamber, but hid behind the President’s chair.
Turnbull should remove Minchin as Senate leader. A very good opportunity.
Dario #226
Posted Friday, December 5, 2008 at 9:55 am | Permalink
“I’m trying to work out Ron’s angle on this… apparently as Labor supporters we are not allowed to disagree with the views of the almighty Rudd on ‘Immogate’. Ron, do you disagree with Rudd on any issue?”
You ar an certainly evasive & avoid th central issue….th act
Kevin Rudd has nothing to do with th core issue that Bitgoods photo actions itself were indecent and distasteful in any event ,….IIRRESPECTIVE of whether Kevin Rudd chose to dress him down or not AS AN MP Bitgood’s chosing to take a photo of such an ‘event’ simply breached community standards of taste Fact that you ar out of step with Society’s tastes is your problem Whilst your mate ShowsOn simply sits on a barbed wire fence on th issue petrified which way to fall
You misunderstand that ALL that Kevin Rudd’s carpeting of Bitgood did , and then Rudd demanding Bitgood appologise to Parliament did , and then Rudd’s spokesman saying Bitgoods action was quote “offensive” did , and then Rudd demanding Bitgood appologise to th family did were collectively & publicley demonstrate HOW grossly distastefuly out of step Bitgoods actions were with community requirements & tastes You actually reprresent a insignificant minority on taste
Actualy you initialy foolishly shot from hip against th MSN to defend a Labor MP without ‘taste’ thought , and then backed yourself into a foolish corner , probably out of step even with this site
As I’ve said photogate is not a National key issue & will blow over newswise quick , but it and his religous coments may cause him problems in 2010 getting preselection , and I wouldn’t support him on either ground …on judgement nor standards reflecting his voters levels
And what would points be in highlighliting policy diferenses with yous , when you and probabley your mate miss th distaste test…however Rudd agreeing to continue Schools Commission funding formula for 2009-2013 , questions over ‘oz’ CC targets vs lower likely Coppenhaggen target ageeements , leaving existing AWA’s to continue after expiry by agreement , and lack of generall National overview of Sydney/Melb cities car transport solutions vs public transport could be areas of caution to me presently
Yes but Itep you know who would take over then…Eric Abetz………………
That would just make Minchin start doing the numbers for Costello.
You’ve got a good point Glen. When your other high profile options are Abetz and Coonan I suppose Minchin is not much worse. Still you have to wonder how untenable it is for leader of the party in the Senate and the House of Representatives to not publicly be on the same page.
I have always wondered by Nick hasnt tried to go to the House of Reps??
If not, they are now Glen, well and truly.
SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.
You don’t think he is already?
Dario
when contronted with logic exposing your foolish untenable position , your replys lacking any substnse ar not even turnbull quality….more Brenda’s
There is a deeper politcal message in todays LCP Senate implosion than just trunbull’s leadership & LCP’s lack of tactics
Nats hav progressively sold out rural Australia , and in doing so hav progrssively signed there own death warant Nats Senate opposition is like a cry from past….too little too late for rural Australia Fortunateley for Labor longterm Nats don’t understand how to turn priovincial towns into rurual vs city , and given up demographic fight….ala pineaple party in Q’ld….that will leave 2 mainstream CITY orientated Partys fighting for rural votes…much better for Labor than fighting a rural only Party , not clever but Labor stategists ar smiling
Ron, as usual you are nothing but hot air. Your position is that ‘Rudd said so’ so it must be correct, which is totally laughable. Looks like I am going to have to ignore you in the Oz forum as well as the US one from now on. So long.
Dario , you ar a deceitful , although L word is more accurate My posts clearly stated I (not Rudd) thought Bitgood’s actions were indecent and distasteful and that they breached community offensive levels I then stated Rudds actions simply proved HOW grossly far Bitgood’s actions were out of step with those community standards
Your deceitful posts trying cmoflage your indefensible position of defending this indecent Bitgood’s actions simply makes you not only more foolish by each post you make , but exposes your appalling levels of what is distasteful
And any blogger reading my #316 can see that
Describe in detail what you mean by “community offensive levels” and “community standards”.
Why should it concern us that you find some of Dario’s comments “distasteful”? I provided you with several links to “distasteful” photographs last night that are extremely famous. Your notion that there are self evident standards that all photos should be measured against is absurd unless you can say what those standards are, and why everyone should be forced to comply with them.
Calm down, Ron.
Just to stick my bib in on the photo business…
Ron, I think you’re way out of line, setting yourself up as the moral arbiter of what is good and decent. You seem to be determined to keep haranguing us about your fundamental, but alas (for you) totally subjective point and personal opinion. There isno way you can argue the truth or otherwise of your point so you have resorted to repetitious restatement of it until everyone gets sick of reading and responding to your posts and goes away. The “Last Man Standing” ploy only achieves the result of you making yourself look overly dogmatic and stubborn.
You have to accept that others do not share your opinion. Endless restatement of it does not convince anyone. You seem convinced yourself, and that’s your business. But until you can bring some evidence to bear that Bidgood’s actions were, by normals standards, reprehensible, your arguments will fall on deaf ears.
Greetings bludgers
On the week in Parliament: Glen, to quote the late great Fred Daly, your lot couldn’t go three rounds with a revolving door at present. They are in a state of deep, deep frustration and depression. This is a bit strange, because the Labor government is obviously heading for a very rough year, and Turnbull’s personal standing with the electorate is quite high for an oppositiion leader up against a phenominally popular PM. But within the building they are a complete shambles. When was the last time a party leader (Minchin) walked out of the chamber in disgust rather than bvote to support his own party’s position, yet neither resigned not got sacked. It was quite quite strorders (as Jessica Mitford would have said).
Canada: This circumstance is not at all like 1975, because where Whitlam always had a majority in the lower house, Harper does not, and never has had. It is only two months since the electorate declined to give him a majority. Now a majority of MPs have signed a declaration of intent to vote him out. In these circumstances, the GG has no obligation to follow his advice. The correct course for her is to tell him to go and face Parliament. If he requests a dissolution she should decline it.
As much as we attack Bidgood, the sad thing is that there are Australians who share his views….
Adam on Canada…
Firstly let me make you aware of some quotes….
Mr. Layton on Mr. Dion: “I urge Canadians to also defeat Mr. Harper’s best friend over the past year or so in Parliament – Stéphane Dion.
Mr. Layton on Mr. Dion: “When it comes to the environment, I do have a few words for my Liberal colleague [Mr. Dion], and that is that his carbon tax proposal is wrong, that it won’t work, and that he knows it.’’
Mr. Dion on Mr. Layton: “Mr. Layton does not understand the economy. I cannot think that Canadians will give their support to a man who will kill jobs everywhere in the country in raising the corporate tax … If you were worried about your savings, your pension, your mortgages, if you are worried about your jobs, then think twice before voting for Jack Layton.”
Mr. Dion on Mr. Layton: “The NDP can promise you the moon. But they are trying to buy your vote with Monopoly money. They want to pay for all their promises by increasing the burden on our economy. Jack Layton’s old-fashioned socialist mentality is as backward as Stephen Harper’s conservative ideology … I have no lessons to learn from Stephen Harper or Jack Layton about how to balance a budget.”
Mr. Duceppe after Mr. Dion asked that a question on the economic crisis be repeated three times during an interview with an English-speaking television reporter: “The real question is that I think [Mr. Dion] understood the question. The real problem wasn’t the language, it was the substance. He had nothing to say.”
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2008/12/02/what-the-coalition-leaders-really-think-of-their-new-partners.aspx
In light of this Adam how can Jean honestly allow these groups to Govern…most likely she will call another election in January if Dion keeps up this Coalition…
Also the Bloc have come out and say that the Coalition is better for their goals of sovereignty in Quebec…how can Dion get a mandate to govern from the Bloc and not from the people of Canada…he never said he’d form a Coalition with those trying to break up the country and now he wants them to have veto power over the Budget???
Jean made the right choice.
All the GG needs to know if there’s a no-confidence vote is whether there’s another government that can be formed that has the confidence of the House of Commons.
It doesn’t require her to look at the past comments of party leaders. That’s completely irrelevant.
Glen – what Ltep said.
Itep…it goes to the fact these Political Party’s cannot get along despite what they say in their Agreement…Plus Itep Dion doesnt have a mandate to form a Government with the NDP and Bloc when in the last election he said he would do no such thing…In Canada there is a tradition that all governments must face the people and hence if Jean does sack Harper she should then call another election…
I would have thought the GG would want to see if a government could be formed before sending the country to an election again. What excuse is Harper going to use. “I’ve lost the confidence of the house?” He hasn’t unless he tests it and even then the opposition should be invited to try and form a government surely.
As for the quotes Glen, times and circumstances change.
Yes but what none of you can retort is that Dion never got a mandate to form an alliance with the Sepratists or the NDP hence he would need to face an election…the people didnt vote for that…they voted for an increased Harper Minority not for Dion as PM, Layton as Finance Minister and Duceppe having a say on everything…
Jean will most likely call a poll.
The people elected the members of Parliament who will make up the Coalition government if that goes ahead. Whether they have a ‘mandate’ or not is of no relevance to the GG.
Ben Raue at The Tally Room has a good post on the Canadian crisis-ette, in which he proposes reforms to the appointment of prime ministers (citing the practice in the Australian Capital Territory), the scheduling of parliament and the timing of elections. I am a little more sympathetic than Raue to Jean’s decision, on account of the Liberals’ evident state of disarray – although I can buy the idea that it’s not the Governor-General’s role to make such judgements.
Itep they didnt vote for a Dion, Layton Duceppe mish mash Government…if Dion wanted that he ought to have run on it in the last election he didnt and hence he has no mandate to form such a government without an election.
337 – If you use your logic Glen the Tories should remain in government no matter what they do because the opposition said during an election campaign they wouldn’t get together. I bet when they said that they didn’t expect Harper to be doing what he is doing to disturb them so much as to bring them together.
By the way, did Harper have a mandate to do those things the opposition finds so offensive?
Glen, do you think the WA Governor looked at comments of Colin Barnett and Brendon Grylls before accepting their Government?
Of course not. That’s completely irrelevant. What’s relevant is that they have the confidence of the lower house of Parliament.
Similarly in NZ when Helen Clark won her last term the GG didn’t need to measure up statements by party leaders or whether Clark had won a mandate. All that is completely irrelevant.
If they want to bring Harper down they should do so and have another election called as is the practice not try to get into bed with a political party who would gladly love to break up the country….
Itep they are completely different circumstances…they occured at the time of an election not 7 weeks after a new government was sworn in!
Glen that is completely irrelevant as well. People voted to send representatives to Parliament who happened to be members of parties. What those parties choose to do after the election is up to them.
The people did not elect a majority government so in the absence of that the Government will be whoever manages to demonstrate they have majority support in the House of Commons.
It’s just the way our parliamentary system works.
344 – Correct ltep. All the GG requires is a majority group of MP’s pledging to work together to form a government.
People voted against Dion forming a Government if they had wanted him PM they wouldnt have taken the Liberal Party to its worst result since Confederation and just 77 seats!!!!!!!!
They wanted a strengthened Harper Minority Government and its only because of the Bloc Harper didnt get a majority!
Not if they havent a mandate for it…
Glen, if the Nats in WA decided to side with Labor now, would WA have to go to a new election?
But they didn’t want a Harper majority government Glen. In fact more people voted against Harper than voted for him.
Well I’m not going to continue arguing over this. A waste of time.
I like this quote:
Surely that makes no sense? Surely someone owns responsibility for the direction of the Coalition and that person is Malcolm Turnbull.
Glen, in constitutional terms, voters don’t “vote for a government” at all. They vote for their local MP. It is then up to those MPs to form a government and support it. If 30 Labor MPs defected to the Liberal Party tomorrow, Turnbull would quite legitimately become PM without another election. The voters didn’t elect a Labor government in 1940, but they got one in 1941 when the two independents who held the balance of power changed sides. There are many similar examples in the history of Westminster parliaments. The duty of the GG in this situation is clear: it is to say to Harper: Can you form a government with the support of the majority of the Commons? If the answer is No, her duty is then to send for Dion and ask him the same question. If his answer is Yes, then her duty is to commission him. This is a well established matter of constitutional practice in Westminster systems. You won’t be able to attack it with shallow rhetorical points such as you make above.
So a combined oppostion vote is the will of the people.
352 Adam in Canberra – spot on.
The GG is by the way also entitled to send for the leaders of the other parties or independents and ask them for guarantees that they will provide stable government. This was done in Canberra in 1941, in Tas when the Field government was formed, and in Vic in 1999 when the three independents undertook to support Bracks.
The Nats didnt rule out anything though so they might not have too.
But Dion, Layton and Duceppe all ruled it out so they’d require a mandate from the people.
Dion needs a mandate from Canadians not the Sepratists.
The bookies are paying out on the opposition leader at the next election. I’ve still got my betting ticket on Cossie and I won’t be throwing it out just yet.
Apparently Cossie’s press secretary reckons Tip didn’t have the killer instinct to challenge Howard!. That’s putting mildly. Cossie was too weak, but he is all they have got at the moment.
Speaking of opposition leaders, it’s nonesense to believe that Labor kept losing elections because they couldn’t find someone reasonable enough for the job. How does Beazley look now given the time he spent in opposition and his narrow defeats in unwinnable elections, and especially after blokes like Downer, Crean, Latham, and more importantly, Brenda and Turnbull? Bit like Swan really, throw enough mud and it sticks!
Glen, Adam is right. All of your moralising on this means nothing. The rules are the rules and with that that is my last word on this.
I am not moralising Gary…there is such a thing as a democratic mandate!
Dion is getting his ‘mandate’ from the Bloc rather than the people because he knows he would lose!
Every single government in the history of Westminster, besides those appointed directly by the head of state (eg. Fraser) get their mandate from parliament. We don’t directly elect a government.
Spoken like a true Whitlamite, Glen. I must profess myself surprised that you have proved so hostile to Edmund Burke’s view on the role of representatives.
This is a different case all together William, it is like one of our major political parties here saying after an election in which they promise never to form a Coalition with another party and then after they lose say they will govern with a party who wants to break Victoria away from Australia, it is madness and who in their right minds would vote for such a government??
Anyway if the Fibs, Socialists and Frenchies form a Coalition it is the people of Canada who will suffer not the Tories they’ll win a majority government whenever there is another poll 2011??
Bushfire Bill
Posted Friday, December 5, 2008 at 6:34 pm | Permalink
“Just to stick my bib in on the photo business…
Ron, I think you’re way out of line”
No , you ar way out out of line You set yourself up as an arbitrator YOURSELF of what is right and wrong by yourself foolishly defending Bitgood , you decided a standard by your own post …. So don’t be santimonious with me
I gave a diferent opinion that obviously embarasses you , tough seeing you wont find many public figures , Politicans or otherwise who agree with your foolish suport of Bitgood’s distasteful act
SNIP: No abuse, please – The Management.
So Glen believes in promises made by political parties. I suppose that explains his following of John Howard.
A “mandate” is anything which the majority of elected representatives vote for in the parliament. Everything else is window dressing.
SNIP: Thank you, Adam – The Management.
SNIP: Thanks also, Gusface – The Management.
geez, i try to be considerate and that’s what I get…
lol
Adam
Don’t be disingenuous. obviously from Glen’s general knowledge and literacy he is not an eight year old. The maturity of his arguments and assertions are up to each person to judge.
Adam i am not saying what you are saying is wrong…you are constitutionally right in respects to the duty of a Governor-General…
But now that Parliament is prorogued Harper has already recieved tacit support from Dion on the budget if he works with him, which he most likely will.
Id far rather the Tories work with the Liberals than the Bloc or NDP.
I come back and see snips
Well when I gav my original post it was a personal opinion , which i believed reflected societys views of what MP’s should and should not do
AT THAT stage , I was actualy unaware Rudd had dressed down th guy , notr that his spokesman had said th actions were quote “offensice” nor that rudd has demanded bitgood write an appology to th family , nor would I hav cared either way had I hav known
However Rudd’s strong & public displinary actions (to th embarassement of many here) indicate HOW bad Bitgoods actions were
I’m just waiting for th defenders of bitgood to hav th gumption to actualy say Rudd is wrong in his public carpeting of Bitgood
I was interested in your remarks on the current situation in Ottawa, and I see that the Governor-General has now accepted the Prime Minister’s advice that Parliament be prorogued until January.
Apart from the Byng-King incident, well known to Canadian constitutional scholars, there are two Tasmanian parallels which may be relevant as they involve the exercise of the Vice-Regal discretionary powers in situations where a Premier appeared to have lost the confidence of the House.
1981 – Tasmania
In November 1981 the then Premier, Doug Lowe, was deposed within his own party and replaced by a colleague, Harry Holgate, who was duly commissioned as Premier. Lowe quit the ALP and moved to the cross-bench as an Independent. This left the Government with a majority on the floor of one.
A week later, the then Government Whip, Mary Willey, also quit the ALP and moved to the cross-bench as a gesture of support for Lowe. Her decision put the Holgate Government into a minority.
The Premier sought a prorogation from the Queen’s representative, the State Governor, Sir Stanley Burbury. He was granted a prorogation from November until March the following year. It later was revealed that he initially sought a prorogation for a longer period, but the Governor said he was only prepared to grant four months, to enable the Premier to consolidate his government, after which he would have to face the House.
During the recess it became clear the government would be defeated when the House resumed. Petitions were sent to the Governor asking him to recall the House. The Governor responded in a statement that governments are determined in the Lower House, they are not determined by “counting numbers outside the House”. In this the Governor, who was a former Chief Justice of the State, acted with complete constitutional propriety.
In the event, when the House resumed in March 1982, a motion of no confidence was the first business moved and, after debate, the government was defeated and the Premier asked the Governor to dissolve the House. The government was resoundingly defeated at the polls.
1989 – Tasmania
In 1989 the then Liberal Premier, Robin Gray, went to an election. The result was, in a 35-Member House, 17 Liberals were returned, 13 ALP and 5 grouped independents, called Green Independents. Before the House resumed, the ALP Opposition Leader, Michael Field, and the 5 Green Independents signed an ‘Accord’ wherein the 5 agreed to support the ALP in votes of no confidence and supply, but reserved their rights on other matters.
The Premier sought legal advice that he was entitled to request another election, given that the prospect of such an ‘Accord’ had not been canvassed before the election. The ALP and the Greens also sought competing legal advice. This was all provided to the State Governor, General Sir Phillip Bennett. The Governor himself sought independent legal advice, with the permission of the Premier, from the Solicitor-General and from others.
Whilst Gray desperately wanted another poll, he knew that the Governor was faced with the situation where the House had not even met after the election and, on the face of it, he could see that a viable government could be found from the just elected Members. The Governor interviewed both the Premier and the Opposition Leader, and then separately saw each of the Green Independents to test for himself that an alternative government had a prospect of existing for at least some period of time.
In the event, Gray did not demand an election, which avoided a constitutional crisis. The Governor did, however, repudiate suggestions that the Premier had a duty to resign before the House met and accepted the Premier’s advice that he was entitled to test his government’s support on the floor of the House. In the event, a vote of no confidence was passed when the House met, Gray resigned and Field was commissioned as Premier.
The new government functioned for 20 months after which Field sought another election, having found the ‘Accord’ totally constraining. The minority government was resoundingly defeated at the election.
glen
if it is any consolation I agree (to an extent) with what you are saying.
tho canada is a very different animal and the system has the potential to do an Italy
many forget quebec and what a powderkeg it could become.
Well I must say I think the GG was wrong to grant a prorogation to a minority PM whose sole motivation was to avoid defeat in a confidence motion. There are probably precedents for it, but she would have been well within her rights to refuse.
If Harper really was as mean and tricky as the Left say he is, he could just as easily sack Jean now that she has prorogued and nominate a GG who would call another election if Dion tried to bring a motion of no confidence against him…that would be just evil lol!
I don’t see how Bidgood’s actions were anything worse than stupid. Who has been harmed? What law has been broken? What parliamentary convention has been violated?
There is nothing wrong with what Bitgood did in taking a photo of a newsworthy event, as I previousley said the protester would have wanted someone to take a photo of the insident, for the publicity.Instead it became a political point scoring event and the protester missed getting his point to the Government.
Did the “spokesman” really say that?????
the video of him talking about the end of days was a tad freaky.Dont let this man near the education ministry
the real issue is how he became a member of the labor gvt??????
(though he is from FNQ so that explains a bit)
He is English…or at least was.
They dont like and trust their politicians in India:
http://www.outlookindia.com/images/mumbai_protest_20081204.jpg
Btw Amigo Ronnie, are they tried to bully you?
The author is a US based writer, thus the “down here” reference …..
What Bidgood did was stupid, and no more. The punishment for stupidity is to be yelled at by the PM, which is what happened.
His religious views are obviously pretty strange, but he is not alone in that in federal Parliament (ask Peter Slipper). We have no religious test either to be an ALP candidate or an MP. It might be pointed out that Dawson had a 10% majority in 2007 and no-one expected him to win when he was preselected. He got a 13% swing so obviously people in Dawson like him. I’m not going to argue with them.
Adam – kudos to you for quoting Jessica Mitford.
And whoever suggested that Eric Abetz should be considered for anything more influential should be advised that there are those of us in Tasmania who would fight tooth and nail (and even donate money) to prevent that. He hasn’t been called the most hated man in Tasmania for nothing.
I think they are suffering from buyers remorse lol!
Same as the good people of the Division of Robertson.
Well Glen we will see about that in 2010 – or in 2009 if you want to reject Fair Work and give us a DD.
the ‘photo incident’ was piffle no more.
so basically a drovers dog could win dawson then eh?
or is bidgood that attuned to his electorate-methinks i’d go with the dog theory
glen
leave belinda off.
Im talking religious nutters here,not self assured women that scare the fibs.
Roxanna I’m not surprised! Abetz is truly awful.
You cannot expect to keep seats that swung so heavily like that, some will come back, probably not enough to change Government though…
BTW if Fair Work Australia is bad, we’ll give our two bobs worth.
Oh come on I like Eric
whats not to love, his nasally voice, his upity demeaner…and he’s a tasmanian to boot!
Not to mention his charming relatives
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Abetz
adam
apologies,after rereading 384, I see that he actually got a 13% swing to him.
still I think he is too scary.
hmmmm we are a weird mob!
Glen you may remember Bruce Goodluck, one of the stupidest men ever elected to Parliament, who won Franklin with a gigantic swing in 1975 and held it until he retired in 1993. He was phenominally popular locally, despite hardly being capable of uttering two sentences in a row.
Why was Don Morris’s comment yellow? Is he a new moderator?
Is Bill Bowe outsourcing SNIP duties?
“Btw Amigo Ronnie, are they tried to bully you?”
No mate , they’re just playing pedantics I’d called it indecent & distasteful Th PM’s office called it quote “offensive” , thats clearly a description of taste standards (distaste) that ar below quality standards So people hear play word games
Whilst th act was also stupid as well doesn’t change th “offencive” quote……..and furthermore Bitgoods letter of appology to th family (guaranteed to be vetted by th PM’s office) wll be with th taste /offensive flavouur as well , rather than just admitting he was stupid
Suspect my poppularity continues to soar
Also is Don Morris the failed Liberal Senate candidate from 2007?
To whom and in what way was Bidgood’s behaviour offensive, Ron?
Adam it is a bit harsh to criticise him based on his relatives…
Did I criticise him?
Don Morris emailed that to me and I asked him if I could put it up as a comment. I did this under my own account and then changed the name and email address, which evidently doesn’t make the yellow background change.
But i dont see why you had to bring it up?
Can I offer myself as a potential moderator? I have the following experiences:
- I know a good flame war when I see one
- I can understand most parts of most of Ron’s posts
- I rarely take Glen’s posts seriously
- I’m not a failed Senate candidate
- I forgive and forget all those that attack me
- I have a solid knowledge of parliamentary standing orders
I’m indignant that this wasn’t put to a vote.
Oh, I guess that ends my moderating career before it started.
oz
you missed it
Because it’s of historical interest. You are free to point out that I am descended from Charlemagne and William the Conqueror anytime you like.
Are you?
http://www.adam-carr.net/charlemagne.html
http://www.adam-carr.net/familytree3.txt
Glen
Have you not heard of the advantage of incumbency? A lot of those seats won by Labor in 2007 are going to be a lot harder for coalition candidates to win back than first appears. The Labor incumbents will have a higher profile in their electorates than prior to 2007 and those generous postal and stationery allowances to boot. And how many defeated coalition members from 2007 are going to run in the next election? Their personal followings are not necessarily going to transfer to a different coalition candidate.
Virtually the whole European population of the world is descended from Charlemagne and William the Conqueror. I am only unusual in being able to document it, thanks to my great-grandfather, who was a tireless genealogist.
Your Dukeship
Very Impressive…
I hope Kellys, Jackie and Dee-Ann run.
That would be HILARIOUS!
Quite correct but by the same token some marginal Liberal Seats should be more easily held this time around…it would be funny if we ran a real campaign in Bennelong to oust Maxine i would laugh if she lost.
adam
actually im descended from an ape but if you are a recent arrival to our fair planet , I say welcome from a people who go back 3+ million years.
And of course his Brother is now in the WA Parliament
http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/Parliament%5CMemblist.nsf/WAllMembersFlat/Abetz,+Peter?opendocument
and this, obviously written before the writer knew the outcome of the Election.
http://tasmanianpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/08/abetzs-pitch-for-family-franchise.html
Bennelong has been a Labor-inclined seat for some time. Now that Howard is gone Labor will keep it unless there is a real crash. The seats at real risk in NSW will be Page, Eden-Monaro (country seats are always at risk), Macquarie if Debus retires, Robertson and Dobell. But of course there is still a redistribution to come…
Well Gusface we are all descended from trilobites but it’s not something I boast about.
Why would Debus retire he only just got here?
And why would that be? Apart from wishful thinking. Will a coalition led by Turnbull (or Costello or Hockey or Abbott or Bishop or Nelson or…) be more popular in the remaining coalition electorates than Howard?
I hope so
Because he’s 65?
Why did he win pre-selection?
Because he’s very popular in the Blue Mountains. He got whopping swings in the Blue Mountains towns. But he was intending to quit politics and had to be talked into it. I don’t know if he will feel like running again. I hope he does, but he will be 70 by the end of the next parliament. He will also need dispensation from party rules to run again.
Really??
You cannot be over 70 and be a Labor MP???
Well no wonder Tuckey is a Liberal lol!
In Victoria the rule is that you cannot be preselected if you will turn 65 during that term. I don’t know what the NSW rule is. But George Seitz, the longest-serving Victorian state MP, who is 67, simply ignored the rule at the 2006 election and no-one dared challenge him. He argued, and he is probably right, that the rule would be found to be illegal if it were taken to court.
Tuckey is a good example of why such a rule is a good idea.
I think Tuckey is an exceptional case though.
Iron Bar isnt your average Senior Cit.
Adam,
We might be related. I’m a direct descendant of Robert the Bruce of Scotland who came across with William in 1066.
His original name was Roberte de Bruise and came from Normandy. There were 7 Robert the Bruce’s, king of Scotland. The eldest son was always named Robert. My mothers father was Robert Bruce and his eldest son was also Robert.
Unfortunately he broke the tradition and named his eldest son Geoffrey.
Well below average IMHO.
I would lock Iron Bar, Gillard and Katter in a Room and lock the door.
What powers does Tuckey have in the WA Liberal Party?
An iron bar?
Undoubtedly are all related – the trick is to document it. Can you find a table of Robert’s descendants? There is bound to be one online somewhere.
If you’re a DIRECT descendant of Robert the Bruce why aren’t you King of Scots?
Maybe he’s a Scottish Nationalist?
He only used his iron bar (actually it was a piece of iron cable) on defenceless Aboriginals. These days he’s just a silly old man, but don’t forget what a truly loathsome creature he really is.
The ALP have their own bad eggs too Adam.
Adam,
It would have to be King Gregory. He’d probably end up in the tower.
Weirdest division ever:
AYES
Arbib, M.V. (LABOR)
Bilyk, C.L. (LABOR)
Brandis, G.H. (LIBERAL)
Brown, B.J. (GREEN)
Brown, C.L. (LABOR)
Cameron, D.N. (LABOR)
Carr, K.J. (LABOR)
Collins, J. (LABOR)
Coonan, H.L. (LIBERAL)
Crossin, P.M. (LABOR)
Evans, C.V. (LABOR)
Farrell, D.E. (LABOR)
Faulkner, J.P. (LABOR)
Forshaw, M.G. (LABOR)
Furner, M.L. (LABOR)
Hanson-Young, S.C. (GREEN)
Hogg, J.J. (LABOR)
Hurley, A. (LABOR)
Hutchins, S.P. (LABOR)
Johnston, D. (LIBERAL)
Ludlam, S. (GREEN)
Lundy, K.A. (LABOR)
Marshall, G. (LABOR)
McEwen, A. (LABOR)
McLucas, J.E. (LABOR)
Milne, C. (GREEN)
Moore, C. (LABOR)
Pratt, L.C. (LABOR)
Ronaldson, M. (LIBERAL)
Sherry, N.J. (LABOR)
Siewert, R. (GREEN)
Stephens, U. (LABOR)
Sterle, G. (LABOR)
Troeth, J.M. (LIBERAL)
Wortley, D. (LABOR)
NOES
Boswell, R.L.D. (NAT)
Eggleston, A. (LIBERAL)
Ferguson, A.B. (LIBERAL)
Fielding, S. (FAMILY FIRST)
Joyce, B. (NAT)
Nash, F. (NAT)
Williams, J.R. (NAT)
Xenophon, N. (INDEPENDENT)
I wish we had MORE voting chaos in our parliament! I think we would get better legislation if EVERY Senate vote was a conscience vote.
Oh, and let me guess, the Liberals that voted with Labor all voted for Turnbull as leader?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Labor has endorsed any candidates in recent years with criminal convictions for beating a defenceless man with an iron cable while he lay on the ground. (And who is still proud if it.)
Is this the beginning of the end of Turnbull’s leadership?
Nah, I only know Advance Australia Fair. Used to know G*d Save the “Queen” which wouldn’t go over too well in Scotland.
Some of Adam’s friends would probably like the song though. And please, just a joke.
Tuckey has the power to hold his seat from the Nationals.
It would be, except that the alternatives are Bishop (groan), Abbott (groan) and Costello (giggle). If they had any brains they’d have moved Minchin to the Reps last year.
No, that is known as “September 16th”.
So if Tuckey left the Liberals would lose the seat?
Adam
No you are right.
Tuckey is in a league of his own but the ALP have some nasty people in their ranks…
They could’ve moved Minchin to the reps through the Mayo by-election.
No, I think that was the first day he picked up the poisoned chalice.
We could very well be for a repeat of the 1980’s.
Minchin as leader….him doing a Gorton???
What for? The average Joe has no idea who he is.
He was hopeless as finance minister, he never found any savings.
http://www.adam-carr.net/mainphotofolder/familyhistory/pic2.jpg
Hoots mon, this is my great-great uncle, after whom I am named.
Speaking of Hoots Mon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoots_Mon
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=mfxWY_NxS0c
needs a wax job
We’ll have no Calabrians making fun of the Scots, thankee kindly. I know plenty of mafia jokes.
If Abbott became leader, the Labor Party should not hope for any more leadership changes. Victory would be guaranteed. They should even start to praise the bloke lol.