I guess we’re not getting a Morgan poll tomorrow, so a stand-alone post is required to note recent developments. To wit:
• Antony Green has crunched the numbers from the Australian Bureau of Statistics’ latest state and territory population figures and concluded that yet another new seat will need to be created in Queensland next year, again at the expense of New South Wales. Queensland will thus have boomed from 26 seats to 30 in little over a decade, having earlier gained Blair in 1998, Bonner in 2004 and Flynn in 2007. New South Wales lost Gwydir in 2007.
• The Australian Electoral Commission has announced that the finalised new federal boundaries for Western Australia will be gazetted on December 18, and maps published henceforth.
• Possum reckons “it’s time to rethink political demographics”, and explains why across a two-part epic here and here.
• A constitutional crisis is brewing in Canada that has some excited observers invoking the example of Australia in 1975. The election on October 14 saw Stephen Harper’s Conservative minority government re-elected, but again requiring the support of Bloc Québécois. However, Bloc Québécois has now signed an accord with the Liberal Party and leftist New Democrats due to dissatisfaction with the government’s handling of the financial crisis. Harper reportedly plans to ask that Governor-General Michaëlle Jean prorogue the parliament so it will not sit until the budget is presented in January. This would avert a sitting on December 8 at which Harper’s government would likely be defeated on a no-confidence motion, and allow him time to pick apart the Liberal-Bloc-NDP deal. This raises the question of whether Jean ought to grant a prorogation to a Prime Minister who might not have the confidence of the House.
UPDATE (5/12/08): Jean agrees to prorogue parliament until January 26. Ben Raue at The Tally Room expresses his displeasure, and proposes reforms to the appointment of prime ministers (citing the practice in the Australian Capital Territory), the scheduling of parliament and the timing elections. I am a little more sympathetic to Jean’s decision, on account of the Liberals’ evident state of disarray – although I can buy the idea that it’s not the Governor-General’s role to make such judgements.
1,278 Comments
Has the Canadian GG given any indication of a time frame for her to decide this matter? One would think sooner rather than later if the looming no confidence vote is to otherwise happen on the 8th …..
Is there any precedent for a Governor or Governor-General refusing to follow the advice of the Prime Minister in the absence of a no-confidence vote?
If we want Fielding to be marginalised, what about that nutter Bidgood? Not only does he sell his photos of the petrol covered protester, he turn out to certifiably insane. If we’re in “end times” why bother running for parliament? Evidently the GFC is an act of God.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24750170-601,00.html
Well that is stupid, what happens if the minister said something that was blatantly wrong? It should be the legislation that counts, that’s what the parliament actually votes on, not what the minister says. Plus, Carr isn’t even the Minister for Education anyway, he only represents Gillard in the Senate.
You left ouf the funniest part:
Yes Tony Abbot, the guy who threatened to punch Cheryl Kernot behind the speaker’s chair in the House of Representatives, and who was the first cabinet minister for 40 odd years to be temporarily suspended from the chamber has decided to chip in his 2 cents worth about the behavior of another member.
We have to say ‘What would Jesus do?’,” he says.
If this clowns actions are any guide, He’ll be taking happy snaps at the “end of times”
I agree with Hockey – who said the age of miracles was over
– the sooner the ALP cuts Bidgood loose the better.
Bibgood belongs in the Liberal Party!
He’d be right at home there with tacky and low rent.
ShowOn, don’t shoot the messenger. It’s what happens.
Anyone know of any moves to enlarge parliament?
What about a referendum on basing the distribution of seats between states on enrolment not population?
Does anyone know which member(s) of the HoR support PR for the HoR?
You can’t enlarge the House without enlarging the Senate at the same time.
And doing this will probably be opposed by the major parties as it would allow greater opportunities for minor parties to get elected…
OK, Bidgood is a loony tune. But so is Fielding! And what about Abbott? Heavens above, when supposedly intelligent people start talking about the bible — it’s a worry!
Centre, do you not see anything ironic in your injunction to “Heaven”?
Hell — No!
I said enlarge Parliament not enlarge the HoR.
he HoR can and has been expanded (and contracted) without expanding (or contracting) the Senate if that expansion (or contraction) is due to interstate fluctuations of population changing the number of states that have are above/below half a quota above the the number of whole quotas that they are entitled to or if it is to do with the territory seats.
Well I read an article last year sometime that most judges are even dubious about the merit of explanatory memoranda when interpreting legislation. If many judges consider those irrelevant, I can’t see how a few remarks in the Senate could be of greater import.
Fielding and Abbott are moderates compared to Bidgood. The judgement he exercised in photoing a man who could soon self-immolate and then sell the pictures to Murdoch is diabolical. And his fundamentalist millenarian views make him completely inappropriate for Parliament. When was the last time we had a politician saying “The End is Nigh”.
One wonders how Bidgood got preselection in the first place.
That said, it’s quite probably that he was a cannon fodder candidate who got caught up in the Labor wave in Queensland last year.
What are the odds of the Labor Party in Dawson ousting him in the preselection before the next election?
What was the diabolical part? The photographing, or the selling of the photograph?
What if he gave the photograph to the federal police, would’ve that been OK, or just as bad?
Unfortunately about 1/3 of the members of our federal and state parliaments hold the same or similar views.
I’d say the Nationals are looking forward to winning Dawson back just as the Liberals are looking forward to taking back Robertson.
I apologise if this was posted in the previous thread.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/04/2437923.htm
That’s because we all know it occurs Oz…
Oz, it was also referred to as farcical.
He didn’t really sell them, just gave them to Murdoch on the proviso they donate to charity
Spam Box – so do we all.
Except the Opposition, who are mostly the dark side of Peter Pan.
Even you have to admit the parliament is better with Dee-Ann Kelly gone.
Not only farcical, but everything to the right of ludicrous in a thesaurus.
The biggest problem in unis is bias against BOTH the Left and Right by post-modernists in the Humanities who see both sides as the same.
It isn’t Left-wing bias that is the problem, it is No-wing bias that is the issue.
Well yes i agree but maybe they can recruit that Hajnal Ban to run for the Nats in Dawson…i would say she would be a marked improvement on Kelly and Bidgood.
Both. Anyone who’s first instinct when they see someone about to self-immolate is to take photos is beneath contempt. And then to publicise the man’s misery is just despicable. I’ve treated quite a few self-immolators. It’s not nice at all.
Name a single one who says the world is about to end and that the GFC is “God’s justice in action”.
There is NO issue of bias in any universities.
Do lecturers and tutors have their own perspectives on the world? Obviously. Do those perspectives sometimes become more noticeable at certain points intime? Yes, they do.
But that’s not a problem! University students aren’t idiots who swallow everything they hear without analysing it. That’s the point of university. To understand how to think critically and analyse. There a broad range of opinions in universities and the fact that they’re sometimes expressed and sometimes contrary to those of students is a good thing.
Oh dear, that soon? The poor guy has not even taken the office as yet.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/03/the-debate-over-obamas-fi_n_148225.html
Btw; how come the Govt has not made a big song and dance over the good news on the trade surplus, weird.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/record-trade-surplus-may-save-economy-20081204-6r5a.html
http://news.smh.com.au/business/car-sales-crash-22-in-november-20081204-6rc2.html
Holy crap, Toyota is outselling both Ford and Holden COMBINED.
Never would have seen that coming in Australia.
Look forward to the new boundaries for Kalgoorlie. Hope it’s still in reach.
Talking of hopeless MHRs, Liberal Barry Haase takes the cake. Hasn’t had an original idea of national/any significance in ten years. That’s more than a million dollars of taxpayers/voters’ money wasted. Not to mention his notorious printing and mail expenses. I miss the strange political landscape called WA. Well, sometimes.
The sad thing is that some of them – especially first year students – do take the lecturer’s word on everything, because that is generally what they were taught to do at high school! Part of tutoring first years is trying to unwind that reliance on arguments from authority. But some university faculties just make it worse. They had down things as if it is obvious dogma, then produce students that regurgitate the same opinions in essays without first thinking critically about issues.
This is particularly an issue in some sections of the Humanities where adherence to certain theories is considered a pre-requisite for ideological and political purity.
I completely agree with you! But when students are having certain orthodoxies rammed down their throats without being exposed to alternate views, then they don’t learn how to critically analyse what they are being told.
I am not suggesting this is a universal problem. Some faculties don’t have this issue because they are inherently taught dialectically. The lecturers and tutors will demonstrate two (or more) opposing theories by different people to explain the same phenomena. Then students will be asked to learn and explain the advantages and disadvantages of each theory. Then they will have to pick one and explain why they think that is the best one. THAT is critical thinking in practice.
Unfortunately the Humanities doesn’t have the same history of teaching dialectically. Instead certain theories become considered orthodox, and almost unchallengeable. Adherence to various forms of psychoanalytically infused Marxism is the most common.
Such theories are the only ones presented in lectures and tutorials, or even worse, are simply assumed to be self evident facts, rather than challengable conjectures! Within such an environment such ideas can only be challenged by students who do a heap of their own research! They shouldn’t have to do this. They should be presented with competing theories at every turn, then asked to reflect on what they think is better, and asked to explain why.
I say this as someone who has been taught about globalisation in both politics classes and media studies classes. In the politics classes I had to reflect on how globalisation has both positives and negatives, benefits and defficiences that have reshaped Australia and other countries in BOTH positive and negative ways.
When taught about globalisation in media studies I was essentially encouraged to hate America, because, apparently America uses globalisation to oppress the rest of the world! The fact over the last decade about 200 million fewer people in China are now living in extreme poverty – in part thanks to increased trade – was never mentioned. The fact Australians enjoy high living standards compared to most people in other countries, because – in part – Australia spent the 1980s economically, culturally, and politically integrating itself with other countries was not mentioned. The fact if Australia wanted to (somehow) deglobalise itself Australians would have to pay double or triple for consumer electronics that we generally love was not considered.
How does any of that encourage critical thinking?
Shows On @ 32
Sounds like it incouraged some pretty critical thoughs from you!
I have to disagree with you there. Perhaps that was your experience but it certainly wasn’t mine. I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t necessarily occur, just that it doesn’t in all the Humanities like you’re suggesting.
An example – In one particular course about International Relations and various political/sociological theories we were taught about a number of them. Emphasis was put on a few as they were the dominant theories in the particular field but a lot of others were canvassed. No lecturers or tutors attempted to ram particular theories down our throats and when the tutor did finally reveal what theory they subscribed too, at the end of the semester, none of us could have guessed it.
However, when the tutor did say something that some in the class disagreed with they were quick to point it out. This was in first year, so also on that point I wouldn’t lump together dumb first years.
Now you can say there are some who will swallow everything and some faculties are engaged in ideological battles (though they wouldn’t call them that), particularly noticeable regarding post-modernism. But expecting those things not to exist, or to not be an issue, is to expect that teachers are robots with no life experiences of their own that have shaped how they view the world.
The Finnigans @ 29 -
I didn’t expect much from Obama, but so far he he’s failed to meet even those low expectations, especially on foreign policy and defence. Seems to me that the “Change We Need” is mainly a wholesale return to the Clinton era, mostly the worst bits, with a smidgen of Bushism.
Employing Madeline Albright who believes the pitiful deaths of perhaps 500,000 Iraqi infants was a “price worth paying” as his ’social’ secretary and Hillary ‘Bomb, bomb, Iran’ Clinton as Sec. of State aren’t the only disappointing appointments, just the worst.
That said, he’s probably still marginally ahead of what I’d anticipated from Clinton.
Of course, I noted it wasn’t universal. But adherence to ideological dogmas instead of argumentation tends to proliferate in faculties that don’t have a history of dialectical inquiry. That is my experience as both a student and a tutor.
Sure, so we agree. Those faculties or departments who are stuck in ideological battles are biased, because they – by definition – allow ideology to get in the way of teaching in a way that promotes critical thought.
I don’t want robots. I just want teachers that can back up their claims with evidence and coherent arguments, instead of saying things because they supposedly make them ideological pure.
Ultimately I hope that Gillard extends her school grading system to universities, so those with faculties full of actual teachers – instead of ideologues – end up with more government funding. The faculties full of ideologues should just be left to wither on the vine for all I care, they don’t actually teach students anything anyway.
I think there are more pressing problems with university staff then what I see as a minority of “ideologues” that should be sorted out first, but after that, I agree with you.
I attended Question Time with an international visitor today. It was not an occasion to be proud of, generally speaking. Visitor was impressed with the condolence motion for Crean, and the respect shown him behind the scenes, especially from Hockey, Ruddock who also spoke, Truss and another I didnt recognise. She was appalled at the behaviour during QT proper, especially when Swan and Gillard attempted to answer a question. It was obviously the opposition tactic to interrupt their answers with serial points of order and to shout loudly in an attempt to intimidate. This didn’t work, esspecially to Gilliard. The loudness of the din was astonishing, Pyne and Dutton and someone I didn’t recognise were literally bellowing like football barrackers. Wilson Tuckey looked and occasionally sounded as though he had become his own best customer, a failing of many publicans. He especially fired up when binge drinking was criticised.
Gilliard is head and shoulders above the rest in the house. Akin to having Steve Waugh in a high school team!
The security at the House is stultifying, and visitors are treated like trespassers with malice.
There’s a difference between talking about the Bible and sprouting “end of days” stuff…
Talking about Dawson:
http://news.theage.com.au/national/former-mps-son-to-face-drug-charge-20081204-6r8a.html
I would also like to see Bidgood go, just as much as Fielding. Its not just the weird religeous views – selling the photos was indeed callous. Curious how so many of these “fundamentalist” religeous types don’t allow their beliefs to stand in the way of making a buck by means which ost reasonable people woudl find objectionable. I wonder if he’ll declare that income? Blessed are the hypocrites.
In other news, the Government’s scrapping of their idea to create a “Department of Homeland Security” is a very good idea.
He didn’t sell them
What electorate does Bidgood represent, bludgers?
Well, he did sell them but gave the money to charity. I can’t get outraged about this myself. Storm in a teacup.
I see it as an extremely pressing problem, because universities aren’t any better than the quality of the people teaching the students.
It doesn’t matter how much extra funds you give a faculty, if it is run by people who can’t, or are unwilling to promote critical inquiry, then the quality of the graduates won’t improve.
Dawson – Dee-Ann Kelly’s old seat. He defeated her with a 13% swing.
Michael Cusack, do you think security may have been more than usually stroppy, due to the bloke jumping to the floor of the House earlier in the week and the incident involving the person dousing himself in petrol?
Must say, the behaviour of some of Her Maj.’s Loyal Opposition sounds less than parliamentary, but am pleased to have confirmed that JG just keeps shafting them no matter what they throw at her.
And gotta say, I did say the gov’t. wouldn’t cave on the Private Schools Funding Bill and very chuffed I was right. It’s getting so that you can read where they’ll shift ground, and where they’ll dig their heels in, IMHO.
Ta, ShowsOn. Hmm, know that electorate somewhat and can understand why he was preselected and elected. I think it is a problem referred to by Barak Obama, in relation to a group of people, who, when anxious, and they generally are, will cling to religion (any sort will do, but the one promising most certainty they come across first, they’ll grab onto with a deathly grip) and guns.
Apparently Hefferman is a “family friend”.
Funny how the Libs seem to have different standards for their members to what they expect of Labor.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/04/2437985.htm
Yep a dopey old idea left over from Beazley, that was handy for opposition, but not worth tuppence in govt.
What about a Coast Guard, instead of using the navy.
Does that have merit?
HSO. @ 48. Yes , definitely that played a part of it, especially within the gallery of the house. I actually overheard one security person tell another that there was a “suspect” in the opposite gallery connected to the events of the other day, and to keep a close eye on him. I cant comment on the security elsewhere, except to say that it was not user friendly to visitors, and tending towards abrasive.
Re the Opposition, I was amazed at the din they raised, much more overpowering than comes over the TV coverage, and often drowning out the speakers. No one was warned today which raises the question of how bad it has to get when oeiole are ejected. Pyne, and to a lesser extent Tuckey were just bellowing out incomprehensible noise on a continuous basis. Others on the opposition side joined in as required by tactics.
The word ’sell’ shouldn’t even be used. He handed them over provided News would make a donation to a charity… he never touched any money.
I agree on the storm in a teacup. Since when has MP’s taking photographs of something been a no-no? Bidgood may well be a nutjob but it seems there is a desperation to make this a lot more of an issue than it really is.
They’re picking their fights quite well at the moment. But they’re going to fighting the Senate all the way till the next election.
And as someone who despised the way JWH treated the senate, I say good on it.
And as someone who agrees with PJK, I say unrepresentative swill get out of the bloody way!
If anyone cares what I think, I find it in rather poor taste of Scorpio at #40 to promote the fact that De-Anne Kelly’s son is on a drugs charge. What the hell has that got to do with anything?
Well if taking a photo of somebody rates a mention…
OEIOLE = people foe english speakers!
Another non-story, IMHO, but at least it directly involves a sitting member of parliament.
I don’t understand why the connection was made in the original article.
After all, he is an adult, and there is no suggestion the alleged crime was aided by his mum.
Quite so, ShowsOn.
Less sure – not really my area – my Homeland security opinion is based on views of how effective such a dept has been in the USA.
I guess it boils down to could the navy be better served doing other things besides picking up the odd people smuggler and illegal fishing boat (in between hot romance between Nav and ET
), or would getting a coast guard be more $$$ and less efficient.
I think there’s merit in saying this group only do coast guard duties, and this mob can go round in submarines etc.
But as I say, I’m only putting forth a completely ignorant opinion
Kelly was a sitting member during the period the offences allegedly occured
Well she ain’t in now. Let it go. I don’t care about Nick Whitlam when I talk about Gough
I’m not fussed, but the question was asked
Someone who had worked with Bidgod extensively rang ABS Sydney radio this morning and informed us that Bidgood not only worked for the Illawarra Mercury as a press photographer. but had run a successful photography business independently of any media association. So he has photogrphy in his blood.
I dare say if the guy had immolated himself Bidgood would not have handed over the photos at any price.
It was a stunt on behalf of the guy with the petrol that turned out happily in the end. It got publicity for the poor demented Russian bloke and provided $1,000 to charity.
I really cannot see the problem.
It’s just another reaosn why I would hate to be an MP (and why I have no probs with them getting a pay rise) their life and that of their families is considered everyone’s business.
Palin and her kids
Bracks and his son
Hawke and his daughter
unless it’s like Reith and his son’s phone bill, I don’t want to know
Given the relative lack of ’scandals’ by this first term Government, it seems the bar has been lowered as a result
Geez.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24751329-23109,00.html
With the end of parliament (or are they coming back for another day?) sdilly season has officially begun:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=682061
Haven’t heard Shorten referred to as a “rising star” for a while…
Err, B.B, whether or not photography is in his blood , when confronted by someone who may kill themselves imminently, the appropriate response is not a photograph. That the photographer is a parliamentarian, or vice versa (reminds me of the “Who called the chef a ****” joke), who thinks that the GFC is his invisible friend’s idea of retribution and reckoning, and there’s a plot afoot in relation to global banks and stuff, that’s further proof of “the end of days”, is frankly just weird.
Because he’s not.
Was the person not being restrained by people? If 50 people are standing near someone who passes out and falls over, do they all have to drop everything and help the person up? Come on…
William @ 56′
No offense meant but just pointing out that some were commenting on Bidgood’s error of judgment and yet there are circumstances where it is unwise to throw stones because no one is immune from damage to their reputation from either their own actions or those of people close to them.
The exact words I said;
If that is enough to receive censure from you, then I think I have sadly misjudged you.
If you feel that my contributions to this blog are inappropriate, then maybe I should refrain from any posting and just occasionally visit to see what others feel about the subjects that you put up for comment.
Grog @ 79. The shrink who works with me, gets pay TV from India, which reported some remarkable things about the planning and preparation for the Mumbai attack. If such reporting is to be believed, both were very professionally done and very sophisticated, suggesting lead times of at least 18 months to instigate such an attack. Seven of the attackers were U.K. born, disaffected Pakistani youth.
There is currently “17″ news items on De-Anne Kelly’s son on Google News!
I don’t think it is now, somehow an issue, that will not be a talking point in some circles or other.
Scorpio, I did say “if anyone cares what I think” – you’re entitled to not care in this case, as distinct from when I exercise my authority as moderator.
Dario, I don’t know if the person was being restrained. I’ve not heard or seen anything to inform me on that score. The point I’m making is that if someone is genuinely, in extremis, that taking a photograph is hardly likely to be helpful, and is, in my view, paparazzi like. Common sense could prevail, if he had any. Someone fainting with 50 folk about is hardly a comparison.
I’m guessing it won’t stop the right wing media from carrying on with the line that it was done to deliberately ‘test’ Obama
HSO, here’s some of the photos in question. There is a copper trying to deal with the situation in the first picture. If Bidgood had run in instead what do you think the headlines would have been?
http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-blasts-labor-mp-in-cashforphoto-row-20081203-6qnv.html
Taking a photograph of someone dousing themselves in petrol is paparazzi like??? Wtf? The paparazzi PURSUE their subjects specifically for a photo. Please don’t even try to compare that to this.
That’s just the point. I do care. It has “never” been my intention to belittle other posters or test your tolerance on the line of comments I contribute.
I have not been very well for the past couple of years similar to a number of other posters here and have gained a lot of enjoyment from contributing to discussion and putting forward issues that other have missed.
Again, I do care how you take my contribution and if I have caused offence, for that I opologise as none was ever intended.
Thank you, Scorpio. I’m glad you enjoy the site.
Sorry, the photos in that link above were from the Canberra Times. Here is the news.com photo Bidgood took, well after the guy had been subdued
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,24745230-2,00.html
Naked short selling ban bill has passsed
http://news.smh.com.au/national/short-selling-bill-passes-parliament-20081204-6rhn.html
apologise!
I think the Bidgood drama was an overreaction by Rudd, probably based on minimal information. Any photos I have seen appear to have been taken when police were dealing with the issue or subsequently. More disturbing were his comments about the financial crisis being the wrath of god. The logical(?) from this line of thinking is that politicians shouldn’t do anything because everything is the will of god. Why bohter seeking election then?
Scorpio, all I’ve done is state my opinion, and it hasn’t changed. I probably shouldn’t have the words “the hell” in my original comment. For that at least I apologise.
WB My thinking was that scorpio was just correcting his own spelling
I think comments by Bidgood and the MP who complained about the food at Parliament House and the Member for Robertson have simply shown us that when a Government wins a big victory they are bound to bring in some people who will do the wrong thing…I am sure after the 1996 landslide there were Coalition MPs who made just as many errors as these MPs and in all fairness their actions will have consequences…most likely that will happen in 2010.
#89: Ah, I see. Sorry about that as well (if correct).
Grog @ 89,
Spot on!
90 Glen, Kay Hull also complained about the food
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/annabel-crabb/stroganoff-affair-mp-says-sorry/2008/09/18/1221330977822.html
Yes Glen, wasn’t it 3 of his own ministers whom Howard sacked in his first year. One would have thought that such people would have known better than first timers.
Gratefully accepted!
Well it’s time at least Howard did sack Ministers who were doing the wrong thing or underperforming…if only Rudd have the gumption to sack Swan…
which underperforming minister did Howard sack????
I bet Hockey didn’t have the intestinal fortitude to attempt to reprimand Ms Hull.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/annabel-crabb/stroganoff-affair-mp-says-sorry/2008/09/18/1221330977822.html
Somlyay
In September 2006, some idiot wrote the following and signed my name:
Whoops. Obviously the state has turned things around. Antony Green puts Victoria 2009 determination at 36.66.
That leaves open the problem that Victoria may have a redistribution triggered under the seven year rule in early 2010 that would be unlikely to be completed in time for an election later that year.
But Swan hasn’t done anything wrong. And underperformance is relative. Performing better than Turnbull and then Bishop might be seen as underperformance but you only have to be a little better than your opponents. Perhaps if the opposition had someone more challenging then Swan would lift his performance.
NOTE: It’s Time, to do blockquotes, just put [ and ] on either side of the quote – The Management.
I don’t get this obsession with Swan.
He’s far from my favourite politician and not as good in Parliament as Tanner or Gillard but he’s doing a fine job policy wise and selling the message. The polls say the public thinks he’s fine as well.
Isn’t he back on the front bench!?
Alex has been since 1998.
Oz Swan couldnt sell you an umbrella on a rainy day!
He is the government’s weakest link because he never sounds sure of himself…struggles in QT and has made some woeful policy errors.
I have heard Bidgood ask a question in QT, the guy sounds like a good bloke. So he may have made a slight mistake, but I agree with BB, there is no way that is a hanging offence.
Yes Grog, anything that’s said in relation to the bible – is loony land stuff!
And Glen “if only Rudd had the gumption to sack Swan”. Swan is the best treasurer since Keating, he is a real economist. Not like his predecessor. If anybody dosen’t believe it they know nothing about economics, or have never seen QT. Like the old saying “if you throw enough mud, it sticks”!
Woeful policy errors? Only in the fevered imagination of Turnbull and the conservative drones. Where are the disinterested parties like academic economists criticizing the government’s economic policies?
And yet the latest polling suggest that Australians prefer Swan the previous mob?
Odd eh?
I don’t really see that? Like I said, he’s not a brilliant performer but he doesn’t “Struggle”. He defends his position well and counter attacks.
I think considering the fact that virtually all of his policies have been on the advice of, or have the support of, the RBA and Treasury they can’t really be considered “woeful”.
Centre…Bidgood sounds like a Pom.
Oz Swanny and Rudd never talked to the RBA Gov about their stupid bank deposit safeguards and they ended up making a meal of it!
Those who think Swan is no good in QT should get their eyes and ears checked. Seriously.
The Treasurer’s department did and the RBA is on the record saying they support it.
I take offence to you calling our trusted, national regulators “stupid.
It’s un-Australian and shameful.
The Parliament House food issue would probably have received far less, as in no, media attention if the owner of the catering company, which had only very, very recently taken on the contract, wasn’t married to a senior political journo who went on and on about it in the days and weeks afterward.
It may well be that the complainants were trying it on, but it may equally be true that there was the odd hiccup.
That’s coz he was born in the UK.
Anyway – people’s accents isn’t necessarily a predictor of what their character is. That said, Alexander Downer, with his Jar Jar Binks-accent, is an exception to this rule…
Sign #235646 that your country is screwed – police enforced dress codes:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24753220-23109,00.html
Who was that?!
That’s because of this!
[Bidgood was born in the United Kingdom and grew up in the East End of London.}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bidgood_(Australian_politician)
I’m guessing the terrible chefs at the Hyatt Canberra (the old caterers) have plenty of hooks in with the pollies – after all, most of them head there for post-QT drinks when Parliament sits…
Shows On @ 115. What the hell is wrong with those people? Women can’t wear tight pants! Guys can’t wear a spiky hair style!
Loooony Tunes! The lot of them. What is their problem?
Absolutely wrong, HSO. A press photographer is always a press photographer. If you’ve never been one, then it’s hard to understand. You shoot first, ask (yourself) questions later.
In this case the ending was a “happy” one and the charity benefited from it.
Can’t see the problem at all.
OK, perhaps I’m being disingenuous. It’s sort-of, maybe, perhaps, unseemly for a polly to be snapping pikkies outside Parliament House, but only if you take a very restricted view of politicians. They have lives outside of their work. They have histories that are hard to relinquish. For mine, Bidgood doing what he loves to do and has a career of doing is perfectly natural. That he sought not to profit from it and instead turned his photographs into a benefit for a chosen charity is something that should be praised, even if it is admittedly a little odd. But no more than that: unusual, but hardly beyond the pale.
As a side issue: I often think the biggest wowsers are from the Left. No reason for that being the case: it just is.
Fortunately that nice Mr Rudd agrees with me about the photos.
I totally agree that his millenarian views are much more of a problem. I’m surprised Dario and a few others are so comfortable having someone in Parliament who thinks the world is about to end and that God has punished us with the GFC. That level of detachment from reality is delusional and frankly dangerous.
Well you’ve just lost both Rudd and Turnbull.
We were right a few days ago , th Libs would back down on Education Bill…and now they hav ….all that money allocated in Bill to private schools must hav resulted in them inundating Libs to pass it
Of course Libs & Private Schools realize where Julia’s trojan horse is heading , but do not knoiw how to stop it First that Nation curiculum , then publishing of results (now that will cause jitters , alegedly top private schools charging a fortune and marks may be no better than less expensive private schools
Of course after that , expect funding will be tied to ‘disclosure’ of “donations” Will be interested to see how they tie up to School commission submissions over years
If process of horsey gets to end game , there may be comparative tax payers monies assessed that directly provide rich schools with state of art facilities matched for benefit/outcomes to poor private & public schools whos facilities ar appaling i can see alot of squirming and red herrings thrown up in future to divert th trojan horsey down th last rack
Press photographers are notoriously sleazy and unprincipled. So are politicians but at least they’re meant to pretend they’re not.
Vera , our Education discussion forcasting Libs backdown
It may be that Israel is preparing a send off to GWB and an unappreciated welcome to the White House for Obama.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24750795-401,00.html
Well, if you’ve got a hate up against the guy, who am I to buck the power of the Lefty wowsers?
I hereby withdraw from the Bidgood case. Good luck to youse all trying to crucify him. for mine, I think it’d be easier to get a life.
Perhaps this might get you on board, BB.
You just know there’s going to be trouble about this. A new Lego-style range complete with a Muslim suicide bomber and terrorist. Osama bin Lego. The photo’s pretty cute.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2002041.ece
Dario back @ 81, sorry, just got headed off at the pass by life, I suppose. I conclude from what you have posted (for which, thanks) that the police were trying to talk him away from any precipitate action, and were successful in doing so. What I find disturbing, and described as paparazzi like, is people inserting themselves into the national media, via photographs taken by a parliamentarian, and that includes the bozzo from Dawson. And does the parliamentarian in question have any clear idea in his mind about what is the role of a member of parliament, local representative, contributor to the development of policy for the party he serves? Apart from what his invisible friend tells him?
I will keep an open mind about the Hon. Member for Dawson, for now, but he hasn’t impressed on first outing.
William,
Bidgood might be right after all. This to follow on from my post at 126.
That’s quite a lot of fire crackers and if the big boys get involved then???
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,23765222-401,00.html
Diogenes,
I think I prefer the video game rather than the real thing.
On the contrary, his religious attitudes scare the bejesus out of me, but I fail to see what that has with him taking photos of someone
William & BB
William , I don’t see th relevance of that religous quote is to th photograpgh
What th quote is this guy is unrepresentative of his electors , and for mine should stand as an independent (and would lose) and has no pace in a mainstream politcal party (Labor or Liberal)
Photograpgh shows something else …BB is quite wrong to assert a pollie following his hobby of taking photos is excused “as a photohrapher” from every other normal human reactions to actualy save th human immediately by instinct This is a separate ground to suggest th guy has no basic decency judgment at all , and should be representing any voter He has no place in th Party , and would only remain on pregmetic ’seat’ politcs reasons
I’m putting good money on it that those statements about God causing the GFC isn’t the first stupid thing Bidgood has said. And there just has to be some intrepid journalist trawling through his past speeches a la Reverend Wright. If I was the journalist, I’d be starting just after 9/11.
It’s hard to beat a bit of publicity.
Bidgood and his revelation currently rating 135 news stories on Google News.
Not bad for just over a day!
If you are minding your own business outside Parliament house and someone chucks a mental, it’s not paparazzi-like to take a photo, it’s human nature. Chasing someone in a car 7 days a week with a camera at the ready is paparazzi-like, and the two shouldn’t be compared.
Kerist Almighty, B.B. Take away the particular case being argued. Imagine, for example, yourself being so distraught about your situation that you douse yourself with petrol and threaten to set yourself alight in a public place. Can you do that? You ant photographs with that?
Dario
They are quite separate and unrelated. Although they are two instances of this guy stuffing up. I’m glad you were only referring to the photo not being a problem (although I disagree). You were getting me worried there.
Shows how little the media cares about policy… in that time how many pieces of legislation have been through parliament, and how many things discussed in QT?
Diogenes, you could probably put a bit of money on the rest of us at some time or another having said something a bit goofy too.
One good thing though, we don’t have the MSM trailing along behind to allert the rest of the world to it.
That is something Bidgood will have to learn and quickly, I would think.
Yeah, and you can bet if he was a Lib, that it would have barely got a mention, if at all.
HSO
On the self-immolation thing. Although they often get terrible burns (and quite a few die), they actually do surprisingly well mentally after. Some commit suicide after, but quite a few do well. Perhaps they concentrate on their burns and rehab instead of whatever was causing them to be mentally unwell. We get quite a few who do it as inpatients, in prison or outside court.
I would bet that Abbott and Fielding have even more ridiculous loony views and beliefs. The only difference is that Bidgood opened his mouth.
Ron there have been a few backdowns in past couple of days by them Libs. Murray water bill, Education bill and expect another backdown before weekend on the Infrastructure bill, being blocked because libs are concerned about pork barrelling no less!!!!
I’m with BB on photogate, mountains outa molehills
At least he didn’t go over with a match and offer the bloke a smoke.
Looks like Turnbull & Bishop’s imaginations have got the better of them again.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24751221-26103,00.html
Their country is run by a minority of people who want to control the majority of people, and one way of doing so is by enacting and enforcing absolutely absurd laws that act as a threat to make the majority of people conform to other even more absurd and stupid laws.
About Half of the Liberal party (the right wing / conservative faction) probably agrees with his views.
Dario, I take your point about the difference, but I’d suggest, if not paparazzi like, which was probably an ill-chosen descriptor, then, how about really insensitive, lacking in common sense and ill considered. And he believes in an invisible friend, who does nasty things to the global economy, cos….retribution & the reckoning, etc.
Oz @ 116 – Tony Wright
BTW, just found this:
[Ms Wright, who took over the catering contract in July, admitted there were still come teething problems.
“It (Parliament House) is an incredibly large building … but we are working it out,” she told ABC Radio today.
Customers have had to adjust from self-service to receiving set portions.
“It has been difficult because the previous contractor had serve-yourself portions.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,24364908-5006922,00.html
As for the photographer/part time pollie, according to someone that was there, Bidgood only began talking about giving the money to charity when it eventually dawned on him that propositioning the media probably wasn’t a good look and when asked which charity he wanted the money sent to couldn’t think of one. Guess he hasn’t been following one of Rudd’s first edicts about getting involved with the less fortunate.
Diogenes, the first suicide I was involved with was of a young woman who doused herself with petrol and set herself alight. She took 3 days to die, and it was truly awful. Are you doing a burns unit?
vera
Posted Thursday, December 4, 2008 at 10:58 pm | Permalink
“Ron there have been a few backdowns in past couple of days by them Libs”
Looks like they’ve invented a new back step shuffle dance Vera
Bidgood was already in Rudd’s bad books. It turns out that he described Rudd’s actions in Phonegate as “indiscreet”. He retracted that a few hours later.
Julia Gillard just said “A silly set of propositions by the opposition” about 16 times in a row.
A good interview with her but she stacked it at the end.
And the Canberra Times journalist who also took photographs?
Shocking footage on Lateline concerning dental health in nursing homes.
The Minister has urged the dentist who took the photos to send his report directly to her, but I think Rudd should intervene.
The Editor of the Telegraph which first ran the story & pictures tells a different story than that.
I think this one can go into the same box as Rudd’s dog, nanny and butler. Libs grasping at any feeble thing.
news.com denied that he asked for money, just that he wanted a donation made to charity
HSO
Yep, I’ve been in the Burns Unit here for five years. I should point out that the police or security guys did a great job in that case, not just from a bravery point of view. You can actually die without setting fire to yourself if you’re covered in petrol. It can cause a chemical burn and lung damage. They washed him off with water and saved him.
She is the wife of Tony Wright
WOW I didn’t know that Clare Martin was now CEO of ACOSS.
In other news, Barnaby Joyce thinks the economic stimulus package is going to result in an increase in rape.
ron
Dancing with the pollies? Isn’t that a TV show?
Name a political reporter more boring than Tony Wright…
GO!
HSO and william… I’d love to argue all night with youse, but I said I’d had enough of the Bidgood Affair and I have to stick with that.
Suffice it to say that my argument cares not either way for Bidgood’s religious beliefs. They’re irrelevant to my mind. And as to the morality of his situation, HSO, you should know better than to judge others by your own beliefs as to what is proper and decent.
Now it really is “to bed” for me.
G’night all.
This is unusual, the media accusing the media of inciting terrorism. Makes some very telling points too and well backed up. Well worth a read.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24747361-7583,00.html
Dario
“If you are minding your own business outside Parliament house and someone chucks a mental, it’s not paparazzi-like to take a photo, it’s human nature”
Bullsh.t
.
Human nature is to instinctively either try to stop th guy or alternatively seek to find Security/police to prevent someone torching themselves
I suppose its human nature to witness a head on car crash and pull out your nippon camera , rather than instinctively try to render assistance
And yet he kept quiet about all of Johnny’s handouts… does that make him a rape accomplice?
The police had already stopped him torching himself. Look at the photo.
Ronster, read more about human nature. Those words put in that order actually mean something.
Don’t be racial now Ronster, you mean Nikkon.
Oh I see so I suppose its human nature to witness a head on car crash and NOT pull out your nippon camera , rather than instinctively try to render assistance….and only do so after th medics hav arrived
Only an indecent person takes photos of tragedys , and th victim is one
Why’s he keep calling it a “nippon” camera?
“Sino” reflects more on accurately on where it’s manufactured.
Human nature existed well before cars and cameras was my point.
This is completely absurd! Some of the most famous photos in history have been of people being killed, or killing themselves, such as:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Nguyen.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Ngoc_Loan
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/The_Falling_Man.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_man
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Burningmonk.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c
WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT IN ALL OF THE ABOVE LINKS
Are you honestly saying that none of these photos should’ve been taken? Or are you just saying they shouldn’t be published?
I think it was extremely important for the photos to be taken and for them to be distributed.
I assume it is a typo. I think he means Nikon.
I don’t think he is deliberately being racist, it just sounds like it.
Or a photographer, or former photographer. How else would we have photos of tradegies the world over?
I think we should call it a ‘Ronno’
And so to bed for me, as well. Bushie, there is a difference between being judgmental and making an informed judgement, as I think you well know.
Dario, taking photos of someone in an invidious situation is, just, well distasteful at the very least.
Barnaby reckons the economic stimulus package is going to result in more rapes? No, c’mon, surely not, what a day for stupid comments!
How? Why? It’s not a full moon is it?
Another religious loooony tune, no doubt.
This was his reasoning – More money means more people buy alcohol, more people buy alcohol the more they want to have sex, the more they want to have sex, the more likely they are to rape someone.
Barnaby obviously hasn’t considered the possibility that people will just take the cash and spend it on a prostitute! Thus saving the need to buy alcohol, and commit a criminal offense.
I’m sure many professional photograpers in war zones around the world would agree with you
As I said earlier, I wonder what his view on Johnny’s handouts over the years was…
It’s human nature to run away from potential danger, it’s either brave or callous to stand there and photograph it. Bigood made a smallbad by being callous, but it’s not a hanger, however, my human nature tells me to ran as far away from end-of-timers as I can, and I hope they disendorse him.
To be fair, I think he broke ranks and said the Coalition should hand the baby bonus out as quarterly payments, rather than as a lump sum.
So I guess he is just trying to make the same point. But I don’t think he helped himself by linking the payments to rape.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that finds end of timers scary.
I mean, why should we care about the world and the future of humanity if the world is about to end and we can’t do anything about it?
It just makes me thankful Obama / Biden won, instead of Palin and that old guy.
No, I can’t imagine that was mentioned about the baby bonus… although the comparison would have been quite amusing!
What would you make of this healine inthe SMH? lol
Isn’t that where a certain ex PM lives?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/mosman-ready-for-rat-invasion/2008/12/03/1228257139088.html
He was a professional photographer in the past apparently
Can’t argue with that
This was his reasoning – More money means more people buy alcohol, more people buy alcohol the more they want to have sex, the more they want to have sex, the more likely they are to rape someone.
Um…wouldn’t lowering taxes on alcohol produce the same outcome? Particularly, if the alcoholic product was being marketed to the young, i.e. hormones on legs, a demographic not renowned for exercising restraint whilst p*ssed as newts?
This is Barnaby we are talking about… logic rarely comes in to it
Well we hav 3 red herrings going all at once to camoflage Bidgood’s indecent cold blooded action
you will find Kevin Rudd agreeing with me , thats why Bidgood got a well deserved roost from his rh man Unlike yous guys Rudd’s team didn’t hav partisan glases on , it was a non natural distasteful action , and he was told that bluntly , and i’m sure no other MP would hav done Labor or Liberal , so yous defenses look quite lame
As to ‘paid’ photographers , those that give us pictures of tragedys before rending assistance ar also indecent I tink , and most people would prefer assistance given …and happy to miss out on th tragedy photo if there is a choise , exceept strange minds What sort of people would feel otherwise
Whats this racial herring , so its not nippon but nikkon is a brand , just missed out a few letters along th way Reel point is he pulled out a camera and it has a brand name , and his camera should not hav been pulled out , and also he is an MP not a news photogrpgher anyway
when yous guys back yourself into an over partisan corner , you look quite inconsistent criticising oppositions like Bishop’s foolish hand signal to julia for also doing stupid things
Dario @ 179. As I’m sure you’re aware, there are prices to be paid. And there’s a discussion to be had, if William would allow. I suspect William would want it to relate even tangentially to psephy stuff.
Really have to exit stage left and catch up with you tomorrow.
Oooohhh, if people have got money, then they can party, drink alcohol, feel horny, and have sex.
What a scream! Barnaby can go where the goodies go, we’ll go where Paris, Lindsay and Brittany go LOL.
On the end of timers – have you noticed them consistently advertising in the financial section of the News Ltd websites?
I mean, why should we care about the world and the future of humanity if the world is about to end and we can’t do anything about it?</i.
Even more scary is that some of the End of Timers want to hasten the End by encouraging the wars, etc, that are supposed to trigger the Rapture.
ShowsOn @ 172
Would it not be a good idea to put the graphic content warning above the links not below them?
Argument from authority. Try again.
How do you render assistance to a person who has jumped from the World Trade Center when you are standing on the ground?
I proposed that you WEREN’T deliberately being racial, but it would’ve been good if you corrected yourself earlier to dispel that impression.
You’re the one being partisan, you are agreeing with whatever Kevin Rudd says.
It’s a photo of a person being saved.
Since when has it been morally wrong to take a photo of someone being saved? What was he supposed to do, grab the bucket of water off the copper and tell him he’s doing it all wrong? Move closer so that he’s in the way and asked to move back? Grab a police radio and start screaming mayday into it?
Emotional response to witnessing someone saved from mortal danger: releif – joy – happiness? isn’t that likely to have been Bidgood’s state of mind at the time he took the picture?
SNIP: You know this won’t do, Dario – The Management.
SNIP: +1 – The Management.
Are you saying that the following text wasn’t enough of a warning in itself?
If you are worried the internet may offend you, don’t click ANY links under ANY circumstances.
Oh of course. This is why fundamentalist Christians support certain extremist elements in Israel, because they think that their success will lead to nuclear conflict with Iran.
Liberals’ second-in-charge needs to lift her game and soon – Michelle Grattan
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/liberals-secondincharge-needs-to-lift-her-game-and-soon-20081204-6rhc.html
The heat is on.
200 Gary
When the less than intellectual political press gallery is that far ahead of you, you really have to question your skills as a politician.
It’s like Grattan is giving her daughter the speech after she’s just scraped enough marks to go to university or something.
Also – is Bishop still in charge of the Libs policy review?
Yeah right…
ShowsOn and Dario
So Rudd’s chief of staff gives Bidgood a drssing down for taking th photo ….but not yous you still want to defend Bidgood
Yous ar past being over partisan , you ar out of step with Labor
Not surprising seeing your defense of Bidgood is quite out of strp with normative decency standards anyway
Instead of simply saying th guy made a stupid callous decision , you’ve continued to defend him , and with th support i’d guess of few in community ….and certainly not th Federal Labor party
I haven’t mentioned Bidgood once in this thread. All I have done is demonstrate that your ‘rules’ for determining when it is acceptable to take a photo of someone are completely incoherent, because they are contradicted by some of the most famous photos of all time.
NO WAY! Are you suggesting that thinking logically is no longer a core left policy!?
I thought the left invented reason and rationality.
Quote any post of mine from this thread that defends Bidgood’s actions. I haven’t even MENTIONED his actions in this thread. You’re boxing at shadows as usual Ronster, and are completely missing the point of my posts.
A spokesman for Kevin Rudd said the actions of the MP were “deeply offensive”. It is understood Mr Bidgood was called into the Prime Minister’s office and ordered to apologise to parliament and write a letter of apology to the family. It is also reported Bidgood got prior dresing down from Rudd’s Chief of staff
Well who agrees with Kevin Rudd vs who still defends Bidgood’s actions?
Guys , no evasions , simple choise
A bit of advice from Germany’s conservative Chancellor Angela Merkel to the Canadians about running a coalition government.
Basically it seems, strap yourself in, don’t sit in the middle and hold on tight for an interesting ride.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081204.wcoalition04/BNStory/International/home
“discombobulated”
Greatest word to have ever been published in the media.
Harper to meet G-G in less than an hour.
Dare I stay up!?!
“discombobulated”’
Yeah. I tried to Google it to find out what it meant and it crashed my computer.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/alcohol-ads-must-go-della-bosca/2008/12/04/1228257229300.html
Surely this outweighs any economic benefits to be gained from advertising?
This is an interesting economic analysis by George Megalogenis. The comments are well worth a read too.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/meganomics/index.php/theaustralian/comments/number_crunchers_missed_turn/
This here doesn’t help the Coalition’s latest attack on Labor re the refugee/boat people issue.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/arrests-crack-peoplesmuggling-ring-20081204-6rp9.html
This will all be forgotten in another week.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/04/2438390.htm?section=justin
Harry Jenkins as Speaker concluded his investigation as stated on security matters , and of course found security had not been interferred with
But it does not change th fact Rudd dressing Bitgood down , nor fact Rudd’s chief of Staff dressing him down , nor fact Rudds spokesman said the actions of the MP were “deeply “offensive” nor fact Bidgood was called into the Prime Minister’s office and ordered to apologise to parliament and write a letter of apology to the family
Defenders arguments of Bitgood’s actions ar in tatters ….proved BY Rudd’s reactions alone , apart from common decency
Whilst th event may be forgotton in a week newswise , am not sure that his photo action/religous comments will be when pre selection s arise in 2010…. i wouldn’t pre select him on either ground
Amigo FINNS
Tonite have done my Amigo “bit of good” ….’Bitgood’ defenders have surrendered….in silence , but I did not address a curious “psephology” post tonite this being a politcal site & tinking you with th Macchu Piccu ‘knowledge trees’ inspirations could psephologicaly unravel for me :
“More money means more people buy alcohol, more people buy alcohol , the more they want to have sex..”
Did thought th first two conditions were quite irrelevant to th third
Canadian GG agrees to Harper’s request to prorogue Parliament:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/harper-jean.html
As expected.
What an utter shambles the Opposition are:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/05/2438417.htm
I note that the responsible shadow minister in the Senate refused to vote in support of his own Cabinet’s decision.
About Bidgood and that photo. The person who doused himself with petrol to protest would have wanted the photo taken to aid in his protest. Instead the story is now about the photographer not the protester, all for political point scoring.
Amigo Ronnie, are u emulating the Cat woman by bloggin at 2am?
i am also thinking about my Maccu Picchu “Knowledge Tree”, because i wonder how long can it last?
President Elect Obi has made big splash on his economic team, security team etc. Of which, basically, the old Clinton Teams in disguise. But we forgive him, especially his wise decision and now arm-in-arm with Hillary.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/her-majesty-queen-noor/hillary-clinton—a-champ_b_147699.html
But I am not forgiving him for making NO splash at all on his Environment Team, CC, Kyoto etc. This should be his next big splash, else we will put him under the bus as per usual.
btw: Diog’s silence on this issue is also deafening. And where is Amigo GG?
ltep @ 215,
from a story on Canadian English google news …
We must remember this is only a reprieve for Harper, his troubles are still very much with him
Ronster
Bidgood’s photographic escapades will be forgotten as an error of judgement and taste in a few days. His comment that the GFC was an Act of God will haunt him forever to his political grave. Imagine how the poor bastards in his electorate who are losing their jobs feel about being part of divine retribution.
If the Ruddster had a genius solution which would fix the GFC with the flick of a switch, Bidgood would oppose Rudd fixing it. The Opposition are going to make mincemeat of him and Labor. Turnbull is going to ask “What credibility does a Party have on the economy if one of it’s members thinks God caused the GFC and we’re entering the “end of days” predicted in Revelation?”
Finns
Obi’s not even POTUS yet! Let’s wait until he gets there before we apportion blame. Anyway, under Ron’s agreement with me, the failure of the world to change it’s emission enough to avert global warming falls squarely in Hillary’s lap. Obi can take a little bit of the blame if he doesn’t cut US domestic use. I’m still using 20% reduction by 2020 based on 1990 emissions as my gold standard. We’ll compare Obi and Rudd.
I see the media is making a big deal of the $600k cost of Rudd’s overseas trips in the first half of the year. Someone remind me how much it cost to shuttle Howard between Sydney and Canberra every day because the missus wasn’t impressed by the Lodge. I seem to recall it was about $1 million a year. I do know that $100k went on silk wallpaper and imported mattresses for one of the Howard Air 737s.
Hurray for Harps!!!
Juliem public opinion will destroy this subversive attempt to steal the reins of government in Canada now that Harper has until January to survive…
Also there are cracks already forming in the Liberal Party even now on the Coalition agreement….
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081204/opposition_reaction_AM_081204/20081204?hub=TopStories
Cracks in coalition staring to show: Liberal MP
This Friday sitting of parliament is a little less rowdy than the last one.
Looks like Canadians still want Harper in power….
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/04/parliament-poll.html
Support for Tories up amid House crisis, CBC-EKOS poll suggests
“According to the poll, Stephen Harper’s Conservatives received 44 per cent of respondents’ support, up from the 37.6 per cent support the Tories received in the federal election that returned them to Ottawa with another minority government just seven weeks ago.
The results suggest support for Stéphane Dion’s Liberals is down two percentage points from the election with 24 per cent of respondents’ support, while the New Democrats are down almost four percentage points at 14.5 per cent support.
Meanwhile, the NDP received 14.5 per cent of respondents’ support, while the Bloc was at nine per cent and the Greens at eight per cent.”
I’m trying to work out Ron’s angle on this… apparently as Labor supporters we are not allowed to disagree with the views of the almighty Rudd on ‘Immogate’. Ron, do you disagree with Rudd on any issue?
According to Ronster, if we disagree with Rudd then that means we are party hacks!
It makes PERFECT sense.
The Liberals just imploded in the Senate.
Yes, I’m totally confused
Details Oz?
Itep linked earlier:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/05/2438417.htm
I doubt the media will focus on it much
David Kirk, Fairfax CEO, resigned today.
The media here are getting slaughtered.
There’s no doubt the government has the opposition shadow cabinet spooked.
Well that’s largely what they’ve been doing for the last 12 years…
I actually agreed with some of he amendments put forward, especially regarding increased transparency.
It was just covered on ABC News, including footage of the division.
I stand corrected. Perhaps the ABC is feeling the spirit of the season?
It’s now the head line story on The Australian website:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24754820-601,00.html
There you go… a nice Christmas present for the ALP
Why would the Libs end the Parliamantary year on such a bad note? It’s just going to raise questions about the leadership team over the Christmas break. They really need a goog, long hard look at themselves over summer. Their discipline is terrible, especially when compared to the iron rule Rudd has over Labor.
Wow, it is the FIRST story on ABC TV1’s Midday Report.
Talk about a stupid way to insert themselves as the headline act for the media Silly Season over the next 5 weeks.
Foot, meet shotgun.
Any sign of leadership problems is grist for the mill as far as the media goes. I’m not surprised.
Julie Bishop performing poorly, Turnbull being ignored. If ever there was a party in trouble this is it.
ho ho ho – I’m really enjoying this Christmas already
Every paper I’ve seen this morning is belting the Libs on a number of fronts
It really is a Merry Christmas
Robb blames Labor for their stuff up in the Senate. Say what?
It’s looking really bad for Turnbull. His “team” is leaking like a sieve. The Opposition opposition are making sure that the journos know the split was a deliberate challenge to Turnbull. Even Dennis has caned him.
Hah ShowsOn and you think the media is biased against Rudd…we Libs never get a thing!
Now it doesnt matter how well Julie performs because the media have got it out for her they’re never going to let up…this in spite of the fact Swan is doing little better if not worse!
The Howardistas just won’t die will they
It is soooo amusing
Glen
Why can’t Turnbull keep his team behind him? You are a rabble at the moment.
Where have I EVER said that THE MEDIA is biased against Rudd?
I don’t even accept the concept of “THE MEDIA”.
Julie Bishop’s problem is that she is one of the most over rated members of the federal parliament. She was a mediocre education minister who basically didn’t do anything. Her crowning achievement was the push for a national curriculum, but now she is deputy leader of a party who spent most of the last few weeks opposition a national curriculum!
The longer she remains deputy leader the easier things will be for the government.
Because which ever way they look at him they see an arse?
So who would you have replace her with if she’s so terrible?
I think Abbott is being wasted where he is, i dont want him to be leader but he was a senior minister for some years…
Glen, your attack on Swan lacks one very important ingredient – fact. Swan started off nervously but he has performed well. He is not one of Labor’s star performers, granted, but neither is he as bad as you want the characterise him as being. On that score Bishop leaves him for dead.
Well after today’s antics in the Senate….
BRING BACK NELSON!
Gary did you see QT yesterday?? Did you see how Swan bumbled his way around not answering a question on setting up a new Government Bank…Jenkins called him to answer it 4 times before he sat down…he is not getting better IMHO.
Besides Glen, attacking Labor members will not sove the myriad of problems your side face.
By all means bring Abbott, that John Howard and Workchoices fan, to the fore. What an addition to Labor’s cause. Drag out someone from the past to go into the future.
Glen, did you see Swan say in QT (which I did watch by the way) that the proposition Bishops put up about the bank were absurd?
Shannahan tries to prop up Turnbull’s corpse.
And then the Nationals come out with this!
The last sentence spells out exactly “WHO” is paying the political price!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24755034-17301,00.html
The Libs should have insisted on the amendments, work out a story to tell about it (”The Government could have had its infrastrucutre fund – our amendments concerned only a relatively small part, which was nevertheless set aside for improvements in country areas”) and let the Government do its worst. Would that be so hard?
Instead, they’ve allowed the Government to wedge them, and possibly lost a lot of trust in rural areas. AND the Government now knows how to wedge them again, if they ever need/want to. As a result of these actions, the Coalition have basically guaranteed they will face wedging of the city slickers against the hayseeds again, and they’ll eventually have to make a stand on some rural issue or another -and they may as well have taken whatever insults the government could throw at them now.
Great work guys! Time for some new tacticians! There are some reasonable tacticians in the Parliamentary Liberal Party. Sitting on the backbench, of course…
Once the Liberals have conceded that they’re going to lose the next election they should now focus on getting rid of Howard’s old guard in safe seats and replacing them with people who may be decent politicians, like Abbot, but aren’t tainted by so much of Howard’s rubbish.
Cossie will be leader before mid 09
I hope so. I want to see him lose an election as the leader of a party.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/annabel-crabb/no-love-from-la-gillardine/2008/12/04/1228257227521.html
So who is the real catwoman here?
We used to have one here at PB before she escaped to become one of the fugitives on the G Island. Or is it JB with her meow meow claw as per described by La Gillardine.
Or maybe, it is our amigo Ronster who was doing one hand bloggin at 2am like the old catwoman used to do.
The catwoman is in trouble according to La Michelle:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/liberals-secondincharge-needs-to-lift-her-game-and-soon-20081204-6rhc.html?page=-1
G’day William and fellow Bludgers, it’s good to be back!
Yes, what a rabble the Liberals are, last night’s vote in the senate was quite farcical!
Indeed, a rather humiliating week for Turnball, that tosser Pyne, and the others.
I guess the only success for the Libs was James Bidgood’s stuffup, which actually wasn’t as bad as the media made out. He’ll learn from it, he’s probably the sort of offbeat character people in Dawson want representing them.
And, I kinda agree with Glen, Tanner is a much better parliamentary performer than Swan.
Dario:
If Smirky is still member for Higgins in 6 months time, he’ll make a move on Turnball, if the polls haven’t moved in a positive direction for Malcolm.
Bring on the Liberal infighting!
Gary if it was absurd he should have said NO shouldnt he?
Annabel Crabb.
I used to like her and she sometimes comes up with insightful things but her shallow and pointless “analysis” of parliament is pretty dumb.
All she does is remember a few witty lines, change the names of the politicians to nicknames and publish it verbatim.
Tanner is one of the best politicians of our generation.
Swan doesn’t have to be a better parliamentary performer than Tanner to be an effective and hard-working treasurer.
I hope Swan stays Treasurer…but if Rudd wants to look competant then he should be removed in favour of Tanner.
But Tanner cant have it and neither can Julia because they are of the Left Faction of the ALP LOL! So the ALP ends up with Swan.
Glen, I’ll give you one Swan for a hundred Julies.
Err, no I won’t. How about one Bidgood for twenty Julies?
Exactly
Ill trade you the Member for O’Connor and the Member for Canning for Bidgood.
Bidgood can sit next to Alex Hawke….lol!
Alex Hawke is a time bomb waiting to damage the opposition.
It may not happen this term, or in 3 terms from now, but eventually he will be involved in something that will severely damage the Liberal party.
Geez you drive a hard bargain, Glen. One Armageddon guy for two flat earthers …. I don’t know…
Tuckey is how old in his 70s…why oh why cant we recruit someone in the 20s/30s to take his seat?????
But he is worth a laugh…didnt he and Keating almost come to fists???
What about Ruddock??? He’s doing jack all.
Yes but Ruddock actually did stuff while we were in Government he deserves to wait….Tuckey has done jack all…
Id stick Tuckey and Katter in a Room and lock it lol!
Glen what’s so different about saying an idea is absurd and saying no to it? Why would anyone introduce something that they reckon is absurd and would be reminded of their description of it in future if they did so?
I realise you come from the party of Howard where every word by your leader had to be analysed ten times and then some before you could believe a thing he said but this is ridiculous.
This talk by the Nats about betrayal of the bushby Libs and that the rural folk agreed to the sell off of telstra on condition of $2bill fund to be used on them is garbage.
I’m in rural NSW and the running poll (for 2 yrs before sell off) on local online newspaper site always had 75% AGAINST sell off.
If it was absurd as you claim then how come Swan A) didnt say it was absurd and B) wouldnt say No?
The Nats should come to their senses and merge with the Libs…
Glen, Swan DID say it was absurd. You want to play word games.
But saying it is absurd is not denying it, all he had to say was this…
‘We have no intention of creating a State owned bank, it is an absurd suggestion’
But he didnt…
Let me ask again Glen and please try and answer the question why would anyone introduce something that they reckon is absurd with the knowledge that they would be reminded of their description of it if they did so?
Well this is Swan we are talking about…
That’s a weak response Glen. I think I’ve made my point.
All Swan had to do was to say N O and that would have been the end of it.
Ooh goody! What English word have the most consecutive double letters
You wouldn’t believe him anyway. You don’t believe him when he describes the notion as absurd. Let me use synonyms for what Swan thinks of the idea. Ridiculous, silly, strange, illogical, meaningless, bizaarre, incongruous. Got it Glen? He doesn’t like the idea.
I’m with you Vera. Here in my part of rural NSW the mob were furious with the sale of Telstra. They still are, because we probably could all be using broadband now if it had the darn thing had been kept in our hands.
Here in my neck of the woods I can’t even use wireless – nearly 2009 and yet the dial-up is as slow as a wet week.
What’s so precious about rural Oz having a separate fund – Rudd & Co will probably use the $2b towards broadband or something else decent for us.
Glen – get off Swannie. At least he is an Economist – discusses, listens, takes advice from Treasury where Costello had to learn by rote whatever problem Treasury had to explain. He found it hard to grasp. Hence all the bluster, smirking and ‘blowhard’ stuff.
But I’ve had a good laugh at Minchin trying to spin his way out of not voting this a.m. – now it seems he went for a ‘wee and cuppa’ break at 1.30 a.m.
Dio, it was a statement not an invitation but seeing you asked, what?
WOW! Even Nick Minchin joins the “THE MEDIA” conspiracy theorists!
http://aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds041208.pdf
pp. 148 – 149
Why is it that Liberals adopt essentially Marxist media theories, but don’t ascribe to Marx’s economic philosophy?
Do the division bells ring in the dunny?
All clocks in the parliament have division bells and lights (red / green) in them. So if they have a clock near the loo, then surely they would be audible.
Who cares how a vote went in the Senate at 1:30am???
Maybe he couldn’t hear them over his ‘movement’
Amigo FINNS
Under th terms of th Armictice sought BY “G” Island ‘s representative diog , you will notice diog unambiguously agreed to Obama ( Not Hillary SOS) having reresponsibility for CC
Diogenes #771
Posted Sunday, November 23, 2008 at 9:04 pm | Permalink
“Ronster
Kyoto wouldn’t normally be a SOS job (for hillary) would it. Smith didn’t go to Bali, but Wong/Garrett did. I don’t think Condi (SOS) was there. Obi TAKES THE RAP on CC.”
Amigo , you will now note diog trying to elude his signed Armistice treaty terms , for which under th Armistice penance for breachs may be extradition to G Island:
Diogenes #221
Posted Friday, December 5, 2008 at 8:24 am | Permalink
“Ronster
Anyway, under Ron’s agreement with me, the failure of the world to change it’s emission enough to avert global warming FALLS SQUARELY in Hillary’s (SOS) lap…..Obi can take a little BIT of the blame if he doesn’t cut US domestic use.”
Having never been thru those Pearly Gates of Uni’s , is ‘disengenuous nuancing’ a required subbject
You know Glen, you may have a point? Who really cares what happens in parliament? You may also want to ponder that next time you make a big deal about Swan’s performance in parliament.
They actually have bells and lights in the toilet stalls and the bells would’ve been run for a substantial amount of time.
Only a sycophant would not acknowledge what an utter shambles the Coalition was on the issue. When are they going to get their act together?
Loved the bit from Minchin about the Government’s spin from its Media Machine!!
I bet he wishes that ‘Hyacinth’ was still checking the media 24/7 and ringing Canberra 10 times a day to tell the Libs what they should be counteracting. They can’t seem to get their stories straight.
Minchin says Rudd will waste the Nationals Telstra slushfund and David Johnson (Shadow Defence) was saying on ABC2 this a.m. that he was sure Rudd would spend it on the bush.
I’ve got to hand it to Fielding for putting The Nationals right in their place on the issue:
Who will be the first Nat to say Rudd has given the bushes $2 bill telsta sell off funds to the car dealers? lol
http://news.smh.com.au/national/deal-to-support-car-dealerships-swan-20081205-6s9e.html
Gary
Flooddoorroommanager
Raccoonnookkeeper
I have a mental image of the division bells going off while a senator is stuck on the dunny LOL
Glen, I admire you for defending them, but they are a sorry lot!
Another thing that can be noted about yesterday is that the Liberals’ attempt to start up a Senate Select Committee on the Bank Deposit Guarantee failed largely because the Liberal Party refused to make the membership of the committee balanced. Instead they wanted a rigged committee so they could make it say what they wanted it to say. A shameful waste of money.
307
That cracks me up
Me!
For the record, 2 Liberals voted for the amendments, 5 voted against it (i.e., with Labor), and 30 abstained!
Maybe the 30 of them were all in the dunny?
There are so many lines oen could respond to that with
Most of them were outside the locked doors.
Some of them were in the chamber, but hid behind the President’s chair.
Turnbull should remove Minchin as Senate leader. A very good opportunity.
Dario #226
Posted Friday, December 5, 2008 at 9:55 am | Permalink
“I’m trying to work out Ron’s angle on this… apparently as Labor supporters we are not allowed to disagree with the views of the almighty Rudd on ‘Immogate’. Ron, do you disagree with Rudd on any issue?”
You ar an certainly evasive & avoid th central issue….th act
Kevin Rudd has nothing to do with th core issue that Bitgoods photo actions itself were indecent and distasteful in any event ,….IIRRESPECTIVE of whether Kevin Rudd chose to dress him down or not AS AN MP Bitgood’s chosing to take a photo of such an ‘event’ simply breached community standards of taste Fact that you ar out of step with Society’s tastes is your problem Whilst your mate ShowsOn simply sits on a barbed wire fence on th issue petrified which way to fall
You misunderstand that ALL that Kevin Rudd’s carpeting of Bitgood did , and then Rudd demanding Bitgood appologise to Parliament did , and then Rudd’s spokesman saying Bitgoods action was quote “offensive” did , and then Rudd demanding Bitgood appologise to th family did were collectively & publicley demonstrate HOW grossly distastefuly out of step Bitgoods actions were with community requirements & tastes You actually reprresent a insignificant minority on taste
Actualy you initialy foolishly shot from hip against th MSN to defend a Labor MP without ‘taste’ thought , and then backed yourself into a foolish corner , probably out of step even with this site
As I’ve said photogate is not a National key issue & will blow over newswise quick , but it and his religous coments may cause him problems in 2010 getting preselection , and I wouldn’t support him on either ground …on judgement nor standards reflecting his voters levels
And what would points be in highlighliting policy diferenses with yous , when you and probabley your mate miss th distaste test…however Rudd agreeing to continue Schools Commission funding formula for 2009-2013 , questions over ‘oz’ CC targets vs lower likely Coppenhaggen target ageeements , leaving existing AWA’s to continue after expiry by agreement , and lack of generall National overview of Sydney/Melb cities car transport solutions vs public transport could be areas of caution to me presently
Yes but Itep you know who would take over then…Eric Abetz………………
That would just make Minchin start doing the numbers for Costello.
You’ve got a good point Glen. When your other high profile options are Abetz and Coonan I suppose Minchin is not much worse. Still you have to wonder how untenable it is for leader of the party in the Senate and the House of Representatives to not publicly be on the same page.
I have always wondered by Nick hasnt tried to go to the House of Reps??
If not, they are now Glen, well and truly.
SNIP: Unconstructive comment deleted – The Management.
You don’t think he is already?
Dario
when contronted with logic exposing your foolish untenable position , your replys lacking any substnse ar not even turnbull quality….more Brenda’s
There is a deeper politcal message in todays LCP Senate implosion than just trunbull’s leadership & LCP’s lack of tactics
Nats hav progressively sold out rural Australia , and in doing so hav progrssively signed there own death warant Nats Senate opposition is like a cry from past….too little too late for rural Australia Fortunateley for Labor longterm Nats don’t understand how to turn priovincial towns into rurual vs city , and given up demographic fight….ala pineaple party in Q’ld….that will leave 2 mainstream CITY orientated Partys fighting for rural votes…much better for Labor than fighting a rural only Party , not clever but Labor stategists ar smiling
Ron, as usual you are nothing but hot air. Your position is that ‘Rudd said so’ so it must be correct, which is totally laughable. Looks like I am going to have to ignore you in the Oz forum as well as the US one from now on. So long.
Dario , you ar a deceitful , although L word is more accurate My posts clearly stated I (not Rudd) thought Bitgood’s actions were indecent and distasteful and that they breached community offensive levels I then stated Rudds actions simply proved HOW grossly far Bitgood’s actions were out of step with those community standards
Your deceitful posts trying cmoflage your indefensible position of defending this indecent Bitgood’s actions simply makes you not only more foolish by each post you make , but exposes your appalling levels of what is distasteful
And any blogger reading my #316 can see that
Describe in detail what you mean by “community offensive levels” and “community standards”.
Why should it concern us that you find some of Dario’s comments “distasteful”? I provided you with several links to “distasteful” photographs last night that are extremely famous. Your notion that there are self evident standards that all photos should be measured against is absurd unless you can say what those standards are, and why everyone should be forced to comply with them.
Calm down, Ron.
Just to stick my bib in on the photo business…
Ron, I think you’re way out of line, setting yourself up as the moral arbiter of what is good and decent. You seem to be determined to keep haranguing us about your fundamental, but alas (for you) totally subjective point and personal opinion. There isno way you can argue the truth or otherwise of your point so you have resorted to repetitious restatement of it until everyone gets sick of reading and responding to your posts and goes away. The “Last Man Standing” ploy only achieves the result of you making yourself look overly dogmatic and stubborn.
You have to accept that others do not share your opinion. Endless restatement of it does not convince anyone. You seem convinced yourself, and that’s your business. But until you can bring some evidence to bear that Bidgood’s actions were, by normals standards, reprehensible, your arguments will fall on deaf ears.
Greetings bludgers
On the week in Parliament: Glen, to quote the late great Fred Daly, your lot couldn’t go three rounds with a revolving door at present. They are in a state of deep, deep frustration and depression. This is a bit strange, because the Labor government is obviously heading for a very rough year, and Turnbull’s personal standing with the electorate is quite high for an oppositiion leader up against a phenominally popular PM. But within the building they are a complete shambles. When was the last time a party leader (Minchin) walked out of the chamber in disgust rather than bvote to support his own party’s position, yet neither resigned not got sacked. It was quite quite strorders (as Jessica Mitford would have said).
Canada: This circumstance is not at all like 1975, because where Whitlam always had a majority in the lower house, Harper does not, and never has had. It is only two months since the electorate declined to give him a majority. Now a majority of MPs have signed a declaration of intent to vote him out. In these circumstances, the GG has no obligation to follow his advice. The correct course for her is to tell him to go and face Parliament. If he requests a dissolution she should decline it.
As much as we attack Bidgood, the sad thing is that there are Australians who share his views….
Adam on Canada…
Firstly let me make you aware of some quotes….
Mr. Layton on Mr. Dion: “I urge Canadians to also defeat Mr. Harper’s best friend over the past year or so in Parliament – Stéphane Dion.
Mr. Layton on Mr. Dion: “When it comes to the environment, I do have a few words for my Liberal colleague [Mr. Dion], and that is that his carbon tax proposal is wrong, that it won’t work, and that he knows it.’’
Mr. Dion on Mr. Layton: “Mr. Layton does not understand the economy. I cannot think that Canadians will give their support to a man who will kill jobs everywhere in the country in raising the corporate tax … If you were worried about your savings, your pension, your mortgages, if you are worried about your jobs, then think twice before voting for Jack Layton.”
Mr. Dion on Mr. Layton: “The NDP can promise you the moon. But they are trying to buy your vote with Monopoly money. They want to pay for all their promises by increasing the burden on our economy. Jack Layton’s old-fashioned socialist mentality is as backward as Stephen Harper’s conservative ideology … I have no lessons to learn from Stephen Harper or Jack Layton about how to balance a budget.”
Mr. Duceppe after Mr. Dion asked that a question on the economic crisis be repeated three times during an interview with an English-speaking television reporter: “The real question is that I think [Mr. Dion] understood the question. The real problem wasn’t the language, it was the substance. He had nothing to say.”
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2008/12/02/what-the-coalition-leaders-really-think-of-their-new-partners.aspx
In light of this Adam how can Jean honestly allow these groups to Govern…most likely she will call another election in January if Dion keeps up this Coalition…
Also the Bloc have come out and say that the Coalition is better for their goals of sovereignty in Quebec…how can Dion get a mandate to govern from the Bloc and not from the people of Canada…he never said he’d form a Coalition with those trying to break up the country and now he wants them to have veto power over the Budget???
Jean made the right choice.
All the GG needs to know if there’s a no-confidence vote is whether there’s another government that can be formed that has the confidence of the House of Commons.
It doesn’t require her to look at the past comments of party leaders. That’s completely irrelevant.
Glen – what Ltep said.
Itep…it goes to the fact these Political Party’s cannot get along despite what they say in their Agreement…Plus Itep Dion doesnt have a mandate to form a Government with the NDP and Bloc when in the last election he said he would do no such thing…In Canada there is a tradition that all governments must face the people and hence if Jean does sack Harper she should then call another election…
I would have thought the GG would want to see if a government could be formed before sending the country to an election again. What excuse is Harper going to use. “I’ve lost the confidence of the house?” He hasn’t unless he tests it and even then the opposition should be invited to try and form a government surely.
As for the quotes Glen, times and circumstances change.
Yes but what none of you can retort is that Dion never got a mandate to form an alliance with the Sepratists or the NDP hence he would need to face an election…the people didnt vote for that…they voted for an increased Harper Minority not for Dion as PM, Layton as Finance Minister and Duceppe having a say on everything…
Jean will most likely call a poll.
The people elected the members of Parliament who will make up the Coalition government if that goes ahead. Whether they have a ‘mandate’ or not is of no relevance to the GG.
Ben Raue at The Tally Room has a good post on the Canadian crisis-ette, in which he proposes reforms to the appointment of prime ministers (citing the practice in the Australian Capital Territory), the scheduling of parliament and the timing of elections. I am a little more sympathetic than Raue to Jean’s decision, on account of the Liberals’ evident state of disarray – although I can buy the idea that it’s not the Governor-General’s role to make such judgements.
Itep they didnt vote for a Dion, Layton Duceppe mish mash Government…if Dion wanted that he ought to have run on it in the last election he didnt and hence he has no mandate to form such a government without an election.
337 – If you use your logic Glen the Tories should remain in government no matter what they do because the opposition said during an election campaign they wouldn’t get together. I bet when they said that they didn’t expect Harper to be doing what he is doing to disturb them so much as to bring them together.
By the way, did Harper have a mandate to do those things the opposition finds so offensive?
Glen, do you think the WA Governor looked at comments of Colin Barnett and Brendon Grylls before accepting their Government?
Of course not. That’s completely irrelevant. What’s relevant is that they have the confidence of the lower house of Parliament.
Similarly in NZ when Helen Clark won her last term the GG didn’t need to measure up statements by party leaders or whether Clark had won a mandate. All that is completely irrelevant.
If they want to bring Harper down they should do so and have another election called as is the practice not try to get into bed with a political party who would gladly love to break up the country….
Itep they are completely different circumstances…they occured at the time of an election not 7 weeks after a new government was sworn in!
Glen that is completely irrelevant as well. People voted to send representatives to Parliament who happened to be members of parties. What those parties choose to do after the election is up to them.
The people did not elect a majority government so in the absence of that the Government will be whoever manages to demonstrate they have majority support in the House of Commons.
It’s just the way our parliamentary system works.
344 – Correct ltep. All the GG requires is a majority group of MP’s pledging to work together to form a government.
People voted against Dion forming a Government if they had wanted him PM they wouldnt have taken the Liberal Party to its worst result since Confederation and just 77 seats!!!!!!!!
They wanted a strengthened Harper Minority Government and its only because of the Bloc Harper didnt get a majority!
Not if they havent a mandate for it…
Glen, if the Nats in WA decided to side with Labor now, would WA have to go to a new election?
But they didn’t want a Harper majority government Glen. In fact more people voted against Harper than voted for him.
Well I’m not going to continue arguing over this. A waste of time.
I like this quote:
Surely that makes no sense? Surely someone owns responsibility for the direction of the Coalition and that person is Malcolm Turnbull.
Glen, in constitutional terms, voters don’t “vote for a government” at all. They vote for their local MP. It is then up to those MPs to form a government and support it. If 30 Labor MPs defected to the Liberal Party tomorrow, Turnbull would quite legitimately become PM without another election. The voters didn’t elect a Labor government in 1940, but they got one in 1941 when the two independents who held the balance of power changed sides. There are many similar examples in the history of Westminster parliaments. The duty of the GG in this situation is clear: it is to say to Harper: Can you form a government with the support of the majority of the Commons? If the answer is No, her duty is then to send for Dion and ask him the same question. If his answer is Yes, then her duty is to commission him. This is a well established matter of constitutional practice in Westminster systems. You won’t be able to attack it with shallow rhetorical points such as you make above.
So a combined oppostion vote is the will of the people.
352 Adam in Canberra – spot on.
The GG is by the way also entitled to send for the leaders of the other parties or independents and ask them for guarantees that they will provide stable government. This was done in Canberra in 1941, in Tas when the Field government was formed, and in Vic in 1999 when the three independents undertook to support Bracks.
The Nats didnt rule out anything though so they might not have too.
But Dion, Layton and Duceppe all ruled it out so they’d require a mandate from the people.
Dion needs a mandate from Canadians not the Sepratists.
The bookies are paying out on the opposition leader at the next election. I’ve still got my betting ticket on Cossie and I won’t be throwing it out just yet.
Apparently Cossie’s press secretary reckons Tip didn’t have the killer instinct to challenge Howard!. That’s putting mildly. Cossie was too weak, but he is all they have got at the moment.
Speaking of opposition leaders, it’s nonesense to believe that Labor kept losing elections because they couldn’t find someone reasonable enough for the job. How does Beazley look now given the time he spent in opposition and his narrow defeats in unwinnable elections, and especially after blokes like Downer, Crean, Latham, and more importantly, Brenda and Turnbull? Bit like Swan really, throw enough mud and it sticks!
Glen, Adam is right. All of your moralising on this means nothing. The rules are the rules and with that that is my last word on this.
I am not moralising Gary…there is such a thing as a democratic mandate!
Dion is getting his ‘mandate’ from the Bloc rather than the people because he knows he would lose!
Every single government in the history of Westminster, besides those appointed directly by the head of state (eg. Fraser) get their mandate from parliament. We don’t directly elect a government.
Spoken like a true Whitlamite, Glen. I must profess myself surprised that you have proved so hostile to Edmund Burke’s view on the role of representatives.
This is a different case all together William, it is like one of our major political parties here saying after an election in which they promise never to form a Coalition with another party and then after they lose say they will govern with a party who wants to break Victoria away from Australia, it is madness and who in their right minds would vote for such a government??
Anyway if the Fibs, Socialists and Frenchies form a Coalition it is the people of Canada who will suffer not the Tories they’ll win a majority government whenever there is another poll 2011??
Bushfire Bill
Posted Friday, December 5, 2008 at 6:34 pm | Permalink
“Just to stick my bib in on the photo business…
Ron, I think you’re way out of line”
No , you ar way out out of line You set yourself up as an arbitrator YOURSELF of what is right and wrong by yourself foolishly defending Bitgood , you decided a standard by your own post …. So don’t be santimonious with me
I gave a diferent opinion that obviously embarasses you , tough seeing you wont find many public figures , Politicans or otherwise who agree with your foolish suport of Bitgood’s distasteful act
SNIP: No abuse, please – The Management.
So Glen believes in promises made by political parties. I suppose that explains his following of John Howard.
A “mandate” is anything which the majority of elected representatives vote for in the parliament. Everything else is window dressing.
SNIP: Thank you, Adam – The Management.
SNIP: Thanks also, Gusface – The Management.
geez, i try to be considerate and that’s what I get…
lol
Adam
Don’t be disingenuous. obviously from Glen’s general knowledge and literacy he is not an eight year old. The maturity of his arguments and assertions are up to each person to judge.
Adam i am not saying what you are saying is wrong…you are constitutionally right in respects to the duty of a Governor-General…
But now that Parliament is prorogued Harper has already recieved tacit support from Dion on the budget if he works with him, which he most likely will.
Id far rather the Tories work with the Liberals than the Bloc or NDP.
I come back and see snips
Well when I gav my original post it was a personal opinion , which i believed reflected societys views of what MP’s should and should not do
AT THAT stage , I was actualy unaware Rudd had dressed down th guy , notr that his spokesman had said th actions were quote “offensice” nor that rudd has demanded bitgood write an appology to th family , nor would I hav cared either way had I hav known
However Rudd’s strong & public displinary actions (to th embarassement of many here) indicate HOW bad Bitgoods actions were
I’m just waiting for th defenders of bitgood to hav th gumption to actualy say Rudd is wrong in his public carpeting of Bitgood
I was interested in your remarks on the current situation in Ottawa, and I see that the Governor-General has now accepted the Prime Minister’s advice that Parliament be prorogued until January.
Apart from the Byng-King incident, well known to Canadian constitutional scholars, there are two Tasmanian parallels which may be relevant as they involve the exercise of the Vice-Regal discretionary powers in situations where a Premier appeared to have lost the confidence of the House.
1981 – Tasmania
In November 1981 the then Premier, Doug Lowe, was deposed within his own party and replaced by a colleague, Harry Holgate, who was duly commissioned as Premier. Lowe quit the ALP and moved to the cross-bench as an Independent. This left the Government with a majority on the floor of one.
A week later, the then Government Whip, Mary Willey, also quit the ALP and moved to the cross-bench as a gesture of support for Lowe. Her decision put the Holgate Government into a minority.
The Premier sought a prorogation from the Queen’s representative, the State Governor, Sir Stanley Burbury. He was granted a prorogation from November until March the following year. It later was revealed that he initially sought a prorogation for a longer period, but the Governor said he was only prepared to grant four months, to enable the Premier to consolidate his government, after which he would have to face the House.
During the recess it became clear the government would be defeated when the House resumed. Petitions were sent to the Governor asking him to recall the House. The Governor responded in a statement that governments are determined in the Lower House, they are not determined by “counting numbers outside the House”. In this the Governor, who was a former Chief Justice of the State, acted with complete constitutional propriety.
In the event, when the House resumed in March 1982, a motion of no confidence was the first business moved and, after debate, the government was defeated and the Premier asked the Governor to dissolve the House. The government was resoundingly defeated at the polls.
1989 – Tasmania
In 1989 the then Liberal Premier, Robin Gray, went to an election. The result was, in a 35-Member House, 17 Liberals were returned, 13 ALP and 5 grouped independents, called Green Independents. Before the House resumed, the ALP Opposition Leader, Michael Field, and the 5 Green Independents signed an ‘Accord’ wherein the 5 agreed to support the ALP in votes of no confidence and supply, but reserved their rights on other matters.
The Premier sought legal advice that he was entitled to request another election, given that the prospect of such an ‘Accord’ had not been canvassed before the election. The ALP and the Greens also sought competing legal advice. This was all provided to the State Governor, General Sir Phillip Bennett. The Governor himself sought independent legal advice, with the permission of the Premier, from the Solicitor-General and from others.
Whilst Gray desperately wanted another poll, he knew that the Governor was faced with the situation where the House had not even met after the election and, on the face of it, he could see that a viable government could be found from the just elected Members. The Governor interviewed both the Premier and the Opposition Leader, and then separately saw each of the Green Independents to test for himself that an alternative government had a prospect of existing for at least some period of time.
In the event, Gray did not demand an election, which avoided a constitutional crisis. The Governor did, however, repudiate suggestions that the Premier had a duty to resign before the House met and accepted the Premier’s advice that he was entitled to test his government’s support on the floor of the House. In the event, a vote of no confidence was passed when the House met, Gray resigned and Field was commissioned as Premier.
The new government functioned for 20 months after which Field sought another election, having found the ‘Accord’ totally constraining. The minority government was resoundingly defeated at the election.
glen
if it is any consolation I agree (to an extent) with what you are saying.
tho canada is a very different animal and the system has the potential to do an Italy
many forget quebec and what a powderkeg it could become.
Well I must say I think the GG was wrong to grant a prorogation to a minority PM whose sole motivation was to avoid defeat in a confidence motion. There are probably precedents for it, but she would have been well within her rights to refuse.
If Harper really was as mean and tricky as the Left say he is, he could just as easily sack Jean now that she has prorogued and nominate a GG who would call another election if Dion tried to bring a motion of no confidence against him…that would be just evil lol!
I don’t see how Bidgood’s actions were anything worse than stupid. Who has been harmed? What law has been broken? What parliamentary convention has been violated?
There is nothing wrong with what Bitgood did in taking a photo of a newsworthy event, as I previousley said the protester would have wanted someone to take a photo of the insident, for the publicity.Instead it became a political point scoring event and the protester missed getting his point to the Government.
Did the “spokesman” really say that?????
the video of him talking about the end of days was a tad freaky.Dont let this man near the education ministry
the real issue is how he became a member of the labor gvt??????
(though he is from FNQ so that explains a bit)
He is English…or at least was.
They dont like and trust their politicians in India:
http://www.outlookindia.com/images/mumbai_protest_20081204.jpg
Btw Amigo Ronnie, are they tried to bully you?
The author is a US based writer, thus the “down here” reference …..
What Bidgood did was stupid, and no more. The punishment for stupidity is to be yelled at by the PM, which is what happened.
His religious views are obviously pretty strange, but he is not alone in that in federal Parliament (ask Peter Slipper). We have no religious test either to be an ALP candidate or an MP. It might be pointed out that Dawson had a 10% majority in 2007 and no-one expected him to win when he was preselected. He got a 13% swing so obviously people in Dawson like him. I’m not going to argue with them.
Adam – kudos to you for quoting Jessica Mitford.
And whoever suggested that Eric Abetz should be considered for anything more influential should be advised that there are those of us in Tasmania who would fight tooth and nail (and even donate money) to prevent that. He hasn’t been called the most hated man in Tasmania for nothing.
I think they are suffering from buyers remorse lol!
Same as the good people of the Division of Robertson.
Well Glen we will see about that in 2010 – or in 2009 if you want to reject Fair Work and give us a DD.
the ‘photo incident’ was piffle no more.
so basically a drovers dog could win dawson then eh?
or is bidgood that attuned to his electorate-methinks i’d go with the dog theory
glen
leave belinda off.
Im talking religious nutters here,not self assured women that scare the fibs.
Roxanna I’m not surprised! Abetz is truly awful.
You cannot expect to keep seats that swung so heavily like that, some will come back, probably not enough to change Government though…
BTW if Fair Work Australia is bad, we’ll give our two bobs worth.
Oh come on I like Eric
whats not to love, his nasally voice, his upity demeaner…and he’s a tasmanian to boot!
Not to mention his charming relatives
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Abetz
adam
apologies,after rereading 384, I see that he actually got a 13% swing to him.
still I think he is too scary.
hmmmm we are a weird mob!
Glen you may remember Bruce Goodluck, one of the stupidest men ever elected to Parliament, who won Franklin with a gigantic swing in 1975 and held it until he retired in 1993. He was phenominally popular locally, despite hardly being capable of uttering two sentences in a row.
Why was Don Morris’s comment yellow? Is he a new moderator?
Is Bill Bowe outsourcing SNIP duties?
“Btw Amigo Ronnie, are they tried to bully you?”
No mate , they’re just playing pedantics I’d called it indecent & distasteful Th PM’s office called it quote “offensive” , thats clearly a description of taste standards (distaste) that ar below quality standards So people hear play word games
Whilst th act was also stupid as well doesn’t change th “offencive” quote……..and furthermore Bitgoods letter of appology to th family (guaranteed to be vetted by th PM’s office) wll be with th taste /offensive flavouur as well , rather than just admitting he was stupid
Suspect my poppularity continues to soar
Also is Don Morris the failed Liberal Senate candidate from 2007?
To whom and in what way was Bidgood’s behaviour offensive, Ron?
Adam it is a bit harsh to criticise him based on his relatives…
Did I criticise him?
Don Morris emailed that to me and I asked him if I could put it up as a comment. I did this under my own account and then changed the name and email address, which evidently doesn’t make the yellow background change.
But i dont see why you had to bring it up?
Can I offer myself as a potential moderator? I have the following experiences:
- I know a good flame war when I see one
- I can understand most parts of most of Ron’s posts
- I rarely take Glen’s posts seriously
- I’m not a failed Senate candidate
- I forgive and forget all those that attack me
- I have a solid knowledge of parliamentary standing orders
I’m indignant that this wasn’t put to a vote.
Oh, I guess that ends my moderating career before it started.
oz
you missed it
Because it’s of historical interest. You are free to point out that I am descended from Charlemagne and William the Conqueror anytime you like.
Are you?
http://www.adam-carr.net/charlemagne.html
http://www.adam-carr.net/familytree3.txt
Glen
Have you not heard of the advantage of incumbency? A lot of those seats won by Labor in 2007 are going to be a lot harder for coalition candidates to win back than first appears. The Labor incumbents will have a higher profile in their electorates than prior to 2007 and those generous postal and stationery allowances to boot. And how many defeated coalition members from 2007 are going to run in the next election? Their personal followings are not necessarily going to transfer to a different coalition candidate.
Virtually the whole European population of the world is descended from Charlemagne and William the Conqueror. I am only unusual in being able to document it, thanks to my great-grandfather, who was a tireless genealogist.
Your Dukeship
Very Impressive…
I hope Kellys, Jackie and Dee-Ann run.
That would be HILARIOUS!
Quite correct but by the same token some marginal Liberal Seats should be more easily held this time around…it would be funny if we ran a real campaign in Bennelong to oust Maxine i would laugh if she lost.
adam
actually im descended from an ape but if you are a recent arrival to our fair planet , I say welcome from a people who go back 3+ million years.
And of course his Brother is now in the WA Parliament
http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/Parliament%5CMemblist.nsf/WAllMembersFlat/Abetz,+Peter?opendocument
and this, obviously written before the writer knew the outcome of the Election.
http://tasmanianpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/08/abetzs-pitch-for-family-franchise.html
Bennelong has been a Labor-inclined seat for some time. Now that Howard is gone Labor will keep it unless there is a real crash. The seats at real risk in NSW will be Page, Eden-Monaro (country seats are always at risk), Macquarie if Debus retires, Robertson and Dobell. But of course there is still a redistribution to come…
Well Gusface we are all descended from trilobites but it’s not something I boast about.
Why would Debus retire he only just got here?
And why would that be? Apart from wishful thinking. Will a coalition led by Turnbull (or Costello or Hockey or Abbott or Bishop or Nelson or…) be more popular in the remaining coalition electorates than Howard?
I hope so
Because he’s 65?
Why did he win pre-selection?
Because he’s very popular in the Blue Mountains. He got whopping swings in the Blue Mountains towns. But he was intending to quit politics and had to be talked into it. I don’t know if he will feel like running again. I hope he does, but he will be 70 by the end of the next parliament. He will also need dispensation from party rules to run again.
Really??
You cannot be over 70 and be a Labor MP???
Well no wonder Tuckey is a Liberal lol!
In Victoria the rule is that you cannot be preselected if you will turn 65 during that term. I don’t know what the NSW rule is. But George Seitz, the longest-serving Victorian state MP, who is 67, simply ignored the rule at the 2006 election and no-one dared challenge him. He argued, and he is probably right, that the rule would be found to be illegal if it were taken to court.
Tuckey is a good example of why such a rule is a good idea.
I think Tuckey is an exceptional case though.
Iron Bar isnt your average Senior Cit.
Adam,
We might be related. I’m a direct descendant of Robert the Bruce of Scotland who came across with William in 1066.
His original name was Roberte de Bruise and came from Normandy. There were 7 Robert the Bruce’s, king of Scotland. The eldest son was always named Robert. My mothers father was Robert Bruce and his eldest son was also Robert.
Unfortunately he broke the tradition and named his eldest son Geoffrey.
Well below average IMHO.
I would lock Iron Bar, Gillard and Katter in a Room and lock the door.
What powers does Tuckey have in the WA Liberal Party?
An iron bar?
Undoubtedly are all related – the trick is to document it. Can you find a table of Robert’s descendants? There is bound to be one online somewhere.
If you’re a DIRECT descendant of Robert the Bruce why aren’t you King of Scots?
Maybe he’s a Scottish Nationalist?
He only used his iron bar (actually it was a piece of iron cable) on defenceless Aboriginals. These days he’s just a silly old man, but don’t forget what a truly loathsome creature he really is.
The ALP have their own bad eggs too Adam.
Adam,
It would have to be King Gregory. He’d probably end up in the tower.
Weirdest division ever:
AYES
Arbib, M.V. (LABOR)
Bilyk, C.L. (LABOR)
Brandis, G.H. (LIBERAL)
Brown, B.J. (GREEN)
Brown, C.L. (LABOR)
Cameron, D.N. (LABOR)
Carr, K.J. (LABOR)
Collins, J. (LABOR)
Coonan, H.L. (LIBERAL)
Crossin, P.M. (LABOR)
Evans, C.V. (LABOR)
Farrell, D.E. (LABOR)
Faulkner, J.P. (LABOR)
Forshaw, M.G. (LABOR)
Furner, M.L. (LABOR)
Hanson-Young, S.C. (GREEN)
Hogg, J.J. (LABOR)
Hurley, A. (LABOR)
Hutchins, S.P. (LABOR)
Johnston, D. (LIBERAL)
Ludlam, S. (GREEN)
Lundy, K.A. (LABOR)
Marshall, G. (LABOR)
McEwen, A. (LABOR)
McLucas, J.E. (LABOR)
Milne, C. (GREEN)
Moore, C. (LABOR)
Pratt, L.C. (LABOR)
Ronaldson, M. (LIBERAL)
Sherry, N.J. (LABOR)
Siewert, R. (GREEN)
Stephens, U. (LABOR)
Sterle, G. (LABOR)
Troeth, J.M. (LIBERAL)
Wortley, D. (LABOR)
NOES
Boswell, R.L.D. (NAT)
Eggleston, A. (LIBERAL)
Ferguson, A.B. (LIBERAL)
Fielding, S. (FAMILY FIRST)
Joyce, B. (NAT)
Nash, F. (NAT)
Williams, J.R. (NAT)
Xenophon, N. (INDEPENDENT)
I wish we had MORE voting chaos in our parliament! I think we would get better legislation if EVERY Senate vote was a conscience vote.
Oh, and let me guess, the Liberals that voted with Labor all voted for Turnbull as leader?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Labor has endorsed any candidates in recent years with criminal convictions for beating a defenceless man with an iron cable while he lay on the ground. (And who is still proud if it.)
Is this the beginning of the end of Turnbull’s leadership?
Nah, I only know Advance Australia Fair. Used to know G*d Save the “Queen” which wouldn’t go over too well in Scotland.
Some of Adam’s friends would probably like the song though. And please, just a joke.
Tuckey has the power to hold his seat from the Nationals.
It would be, except that the alternatives are Bishop (groan), Abbott (groan) and Costello (giggle). If they had any brains they’d have moved Minchin to the Reps last year.
No, that is known as “September 16th”.
So if Tuckey left the Liberals would lose the seat?
Adam
No you are right.
Tuckey is in a league of his own but the ALP have some nasty people in their ranks…
They could’ve moved Minchin to the reps through the Mayo by-election.
No, I think that was the first day he picked up the poisoned chalice.
We could very well be for a repeat of the 1980’s.
Minchin as leader….him doing a Gorton???
What for? The average Joe has no idea who he is.
He was hopeless as finance minister, he never found any savings.
http://www.adam-carr.net/mainphotofolder/familyhistory/pic2.jpg
Hoots mon, this is my great-great uncle, after whom I am named.
Speaking of Hoots Mon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoots_Mon
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=mfxWY_NxS0c
needs a wax job
We’ll have no Calabrians making fun of the Scots, thankee kindly. I know plenty of mafia jokes.
If Abbott became leader, the Labor Party should not hope for any more leadership changes. Victory would be guaranteed. They should even start to praise the bloke lol.
I may be a second generation Calabrian, but alas, have no mafia links at all.
A likely story.
Head of Russian Orthodox church dead:
http://news.smh.com.au/world/head-of-russian-orthodox-church-dead-official-20081205-6sja.html
In other news Vladamir Putin plans to become Head of Russian Orthodox Church.
Why doesnt Putin just crown himself Tsar and be over it all??
Shows
Putin is head of everything in russia
ShowsOn I laughed so hard I spat my water all over the monitor.
Final Lateline for the year with Leigh tonight…
I got that one a bit wrong. R the B’ s paternal ancestors came from Normandy.
[Robert de Brus or Robert de Bruys) was King of the Scots from 1306 until his death in 1329.
Although his paternal ancestors were of Scoto-Norman heritage (originating in Brieux, Normandy)[1], his maternal ancestors were Scottish-Gaels. He became one of Scotland’s greatest kings, as well as one of the most famous warriors of his generation, eventually leading Scotland during the Wars of Scottish Independence against the Kingdom of England. He claimed the Scottish throne as a fourth great-grandson of David I of Scotland.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_the_Bruce
My mum’s got the details but it is easy to follow with the internet, especially with so much British info on-line now.
http://www.magicdragon.com/Wallace/Bruce6.html
Heaps more here.
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=Robert+the+Bruce+of+Scotland&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
Hopefully she has that glossy blue shirt with the missing top button on.
Nick Minchin Opposition Leader?
Could he be any worse than Nelson or Turnball?
Ronnie, as I said if you want to be the last man standing, go ahead.
You clearly feel much more strongly about Bidgood than… just about anyone, actually.
The sound of your own voice in side a drum can be quite entertaining… to yourself. I don’t think anyone feels strongly enough about the issue to bother arguing with you anymore.
Yes he would be.
Leigh is a damn sight better than that smarmy git Tony Jones!
whilst you are waiting for leigh
try SBS
“married to the eiffel tower”
Tony Jones is better than Leigh, i think she tries too hard.
Despite her good looks, Tony’s attack is far more cut throat than Leigh, who sounded ‘bitchy’ went questioning Julie Bishop a few nights ago…
Can we get Antony Green to do Lateline one time…he’d probably do a better job than Tony Jones…
ABC News in Sydney tonight: the newsreader was Deborah Rice, very nice eyecandy!
and no its not about architecture,its about “objective sexuals” -people who love objects as opposed to people.
doo doo do
I’ve disliked Tony Jones since that infamous interview with Nicole Cornes on election night.
Adam in Canberra
#399
Posted Friday, December 5, 2008 at 8:45 pm | Permalink
“To whom and in what way was Bidgood’s behaviour offensive, Ron?”
Well presumably th PM Kevin Rudd tinks its “offensive” because th PM’s spokesman described Bitgood’s act as “offensive” , so someone thought behaviour offended
One of my descriptions was a “distasteful” act….for an elected Federal Representative pulling a camera out to photo someone who’d tried to torch themselves ….its th act in ITSELF by an MP that was sickly…that’s more than just being stupid which it also blatantley was
Whilst I appear to be in minority here , I dare say most voters would not approve of Bitgoods act because I assume most wouldn’t do it themselves Shortly he will be yesterdays news
Tony Jones seems to be set on nothing but “gotcha” questions and is determined to extract an answer even when more reasonable people would realise that it ain’t going to happen.
He basically unwinds what could have been an otherwise, reasonably informative interview.
I blame Melissa Doyle for Hockey looking Bitter ever since Election Night 2007!
Scorpio, Robert I of Scots (Robert the Bruce) was the five-times-great-grandson of Malcolm III (1058-93), who is my 26-times-great-grandfather. So if you can tell me how many generations you are descended from Robert, I can tell you our degree of cousinage.
Yeah, it was like he was auditioning for Today Tonight.
Annnnddd, carry on. More infomation required. Please tell us what happened, Glen!
Who’s Melissa Doyle?
Blonde woman from Sunrise, on weekdays at Seven.
oh, TV. Pfft.
I agree. He’s far too predictable and often wastes half an interview on those gotchas.
That bimbo from Channel 7 who said “Joe, you look gutted”…
Adam, it’s a bit late now to ring my poor old mum, but it would certainly be interesting to see how the two trees meld together. Something for another time. Check this one.
http://www.magicdragon.com/Wallace/Bruce6.html
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=1fcGRXBFANA
I blame Hockey. He is so out of touch that he said he would earn $410,000 a year if he was on an AWA:
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22493525-952,00.html
The Liberals have a habit of finding guys like Hockey and Abbott who bitch and complain even though now – as regular M.P.s – they earn more than double most workers.
glen
joe did look gutted
So she didnt need to say it, God!
Way to kick a guy when he’s down…i blame her for Hockey becoming bitter, i want the jolly fat man Hockey to come back
like when he was defending Workchoices 
That Channel 7 Sunrise/Election Night program was a joke, I watched about 5 minutes of that, and tuned back to Kerry/Antony Green on ABC.
Talking about James Bidgood: his religious views don’t bother me! He’s obviously got something going for him, he won a seat which Labor didn’t think it had much of a chance in. Offbeat characters often hold seats in QLD for years and years, you might find Mr Bidgood is typical of many voters in Dawson. And this whole thing about the photo will be forgotten in a few weeks.
Glen
“the jolly fat man Hockey to come back like when he was defending Workchoices ”
cos howie was feeding him ‘pork pies’
By the way, the guy who allegedly was going to set fire to himself is a publicity-seeking nutcase. His parents already have visas and he has no real grievance with the Immigration Dept. So Bidgood did him a favour by giving him publicity he didn’t deserve and otherwise wouldn’t have got.
The real story is the shambles that is the Federal Opposition and the undermining of Turnball’s authority, not one wacky Labor backbencher.
Glen I think i heard Kev tell Hockey in QT the other day that he among others on that side loved him. that should cheer him up.
I just want to know why all the female Your ABC newsreaders, including Leigh tonight, look more and more like Juanita Phillips clone.
I dont think Hockey will be happy until Rudd gets thumped like Howard did.
Unlikely ever to happen.
I see Rudd passing the baton on mid-term.
How the mighty have fallen. Bob Brown described the Liberals as the most dissaray he had seen from a major party in 15 years of parliament. Nick Xenephon said that the liberals did not blink, they rolled over, on the ground, in the fetal position. What a way (for the libs) to end the year!
Looks like one election out on your prediction Gus.
Oz at that rate Hockey could be any angry, cranky man for the rest of his natural life.
Hockey is sour and grumpy because he gave up a good career as a corporate parasite… oops lawyer… for politics and now has to waste his prime earning years in opposition exchanging puerile insults with a Marrickville guttersnipe like Albo. Plus, all is not well in the happy Hockey home, one gathers.
I’ll say this: Julia Gillard kicks butt in parliament, she is one terrific lady!
If the Ruddster fell under the bus, there’d be no problem handing the baton to Julia
centre
I’m a patient man.
The Federal Opposition are a rather glum lot these days
One assumes Hockey, Robb, Dutton etc will spend the Christmas break sharpening the knives to oust Turnball and Bishop in the New Year
WRONG SHIRT LEIGH!
Bushfire Bill
“The sound of your own voice in side a drum can be quite entertaining”
You ar referring to yourself repeatedly complaining about shanahan by th day…..and then what happens ?…..you go and read him th next day …and then complain again Now either you like your own posts or you & Shanahan hav someting going Would be lot smarter jsut to not read him
I spotted this last week remember, when Chrissy Pyne started replying to my emails with depressive one word answers.
What will we do without Lateline for 2 months?
And will the ABC bother to cover Obama’s Inaugaration live?
Any shirt would be the wrong shirt. =(
No shirt would certainly see a solid pick-up in Latelines ratings.
Speaking of Obama: appointing Hillary SOS is a masterstroke! Others would probably disagree with me!
Scorpio: let’s hope they don’t extend the “no shirt” policy to Tony Jones.
Although I don’t think a shirt less Tony Jones would help much.
evan14`, you’re quick on the trigger tonight.
Ahhhh… The Chasers…..APEC…….The Greatest P#ss take in Australia’s history
If Hockey is wanting to avenge Howard, he’s got the situation turned on its head.
He should be blaming Howard, not avenging him.
If not for Howard’s ideological extremism and selfishness for power, Hockey would probably be a Senior Minister today.
Is Q&A returning next year?
INSIGHT on SBS is far better
Q&A’s audience tended to get stacked with Young Liberals, and Jones is a pompous idiot! But, it’s a good showpiece for the likes of Chris Bowen, Bill Shorten, Nicola Roxen, Maxine McKew etc.
Who is better?
1) Ehud Barak
B) Barack Obama
Stephen Harper doesn’t appear too confident about his chances of holding onto power.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081205.PARLTORIES05/TPStory/National
He’ll probably be NSW opposition leader by June.
“If not for Howard’s ideological extremism and selfishness for power, Hockey would probably be a Senior Minister today.”
You’re obviousley not a Queenslander to maker that nonsensical statement
The biggest political comeback in the past 6 months: Gordon Brown!
Who would have thought that a world financial crisis would revive his political career?
The gloss is coming off David Cameron.
Nah, Mike Baird will be NSW Opposition Leader this time next year.
O’Farrell won’t make it to 2011
DOUBLE BARA(C)KTION!
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03XT6nP6JQeqk/610x.jpg
Will Steven Long finally have enough courage to ask Leigh Sayles out on a date?
TO FIND OUT – TUNE IN TO THE LAST EPISODE OF LATELINE TONIGHT!
Ron,
Nothing nonsensical about it.
The Coalition without WorkChoices would have been in a far better position in 2007. Not necessarily a winning situation, but not a wilfully poisoned one either.
“Debt is the over riding problem Leigh…. oh, after the show, do you want to see my DAX?”
Steven Long can show Leigh his “balance sheet”.
WOW LEIGH ASKED HIM FOR A DATE!
What a surprise ending! The Lateline writers are GENIUSES!
Pity they didn’t do a re-write of ‘Australia’.
The Member for Dawson Trumped!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/business/05norris.html?ref=business
Long by name long by nature.
She’d hope he lives up to his surname in a few other areas.
Previuos post :“If not for Howard’s ideological extremism and selfishness for power, Hockey would probably be a Senior Minister today.”
Now: “The Coalition without WorkChoices would have been in a far better position in 2007. Not necessarily a winning situation..”
2nd comment is more likely , but its time …APEC credibility mess…interest rates risess and a queenslander etc tink would hav delivered a close Govt What W/C did is lock in voters over 6 months in advance
You’ve changed
Who will lead the Liberals if it isnt Costello, Turnbull or Bishop as you reckon they’re on the out?
Please dont say Christopher Whine
Turnbull will lead us for several years…
What a stupid argument to take to court.
Oh, now I get what you meant about being a Queenslander. You were referring to KR being a Queenslander. Sure, he’s from Nambour and he picked up a lot of seats in that state. But the election wasn’t decided there alone. The seats of Western Sydney and NSW more generally were instrumental too.
Yes, the interest rates and other issues might have added up to enough to topple the Liberals. But SerfChoices gave the unions a ready-made campaign, and in turn gave tremendous impetus to a hungry Labor.
Howard’s selfishness for power (not handing over) also handicapped the Liberals. Though admittedly they had nowhere to go with the leadership: Costello was/is a dud.
You ar with me Queensland had lowest 2PP vote in 2004 and biggest upside NSW had about 48% 2PP in 2004 and Q’ld under 43%….and with a ’saleable and competent Queenslander th bacon was there to take , and was in seats
“Costello was/is a dud” , always thought be careful what one wishs for Most here want him oposition Leader , for mine better for Labor retired …and he is as usual equivocatng Without costello MSN will make great waves over summer about trunbull at risk , biy frankley his approvals ar strong at over 50% and I tink he is absolutely safe , and will be leader in 2010 unless Cotello strikes
Yes I want him to be leader so I can watch him lose, but not have Howard around to blame for the loss.
Ron, I honestly feel he is a dud, and he would be a gift to Labor. Being a political tragic, I’ve analysed this guy a bit and come to the conclusion that he’s childish (for want of a better word), along with the other commonly-acknowledged attributes including cowardly, bark worse than bite etc. If I can spot his weaknesses as just an interested observer I’ve no doubt the Labor professional tacticians have already had him on the slab, probing them deeply, ready to damagingly exploit should he ever pop his pasty head up.
[Ron, I honestly feel he is a dud, and he would be a gift to Labor.[
Even his senior staffer Nikki Savva (?) bagged him on The Howard Years.
In the latest promo for the last episode she says that Costello lacked the killer instinct, which is a pre-requisite for challengers. She was probably thinking of Rudd, Gillard, Keating, and of cousre Howard himself.
There’s also the matter of his laziness. Some of his colleagues observed that while he Treasurer, and they’ve commented on it.
After the election he made a point of lying in a hammock in Fiji or otherwise absenting himself while important party ructions were taking place back home.
Sour grapes, there’s that too. He is mad with his “colleagues” for not backing him against Howard.
But sour grapes and petulance are not leadership qualities.
“Ron, I honestly feel he is a dud”
I can understand your view because you ar politicaly involved and know him better than general public , and that is problam
My queston is 2010 is a long way away and its dangerous in politcs to speculate landscape then Should econamy deteroriate , and I’m predicting 6 to 7 % unemployment as starters anyway , public may see Costello in a different lite (with possibly great econamic credibility as a 12 years treasurer in a potential 2010 econamic storm time ( compared to those like you who more closely watching politcs)
So if Chanses ar 2010 will be dificult econamic times , th last ting Labor wants is anyone facing them with any econamic credibility at all (potentialy for public Costello does hav it) whereas no one else in LCP does , turnbull included
irrespective , statiscialy on ‘oz’ history a first term PM all tings being equal , I’d expect Rudd therefore to defeat Turnbull or Costello , but Turnbull easier in a tough 2010 econamic climate being a non treasurer of ‘oz’
Actualy costello’s 2nd biggest weakness is no ticker (whereas Howard had ticker) , but his biggest weakness is he is gulible , and thats dangerous in a leader
Maxine solved that problem for them. In fact, that was the defining event of the whole election campaign for me.
Any chance Michael Costa can make his way into the Senate?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24752810-7583,00.html
I hope so.
You’re joking.
The day Michael Costa re-enters Parliament, it’ll be me James Bidgood is taking pictures of in front of Parliament House.
I would love to see Costello as Opposition Leader.
Question Time would be absolutely compulsory viewing. To watch Costello facing Julia in full flight with an unfriendly Speaker. Absolute gold.
I don’t think that Hockey or Tuckey would be able to help him much either as they would most likely keep on getting suspended for serial points of order offenses trying to give him some breathing space in between Gillard’s onslaughts.
ACA tonite highlited a congratulation letter sent and personaly signed by Kevin Rudd to th Ashton’s circus king for his 90th birthday ….which had bad gramar , bad spelling and bad commas
Ashton’s circus king said Media were making a big deal out of nothing , he was delighted , it was th substance that counted Whereas for mine i thought Kevin Rudd’s “educaton revolution” may be evolving into reely new lingos , rendering this sites language obsolete
I haven;t the time to read through 550 comments but did anyone else think that it was passing strange the way the National Rump in the Senate was banging on that they had crossed the floor last night in order to keep faith with their RARA constituents.
The last time I looked senators were elected to represent the people of an entire state and not just a sectional or special interest.
Sorry, Albert. The agrarian socialists have only ever represented the rural rump and that, very poorly.
and in recent times sold it out to th Liberals , and oignored provincial towns…there antics now look comical
OK, say there’s a downturn by then. It’s not always the case that government are punished when the economy goes sour. The last recession (1990s) the government of the day survived.
Nor is the corollary rule cast in stone: that governments are always retained during boom times. Howard is testament to that.
You can pretty-well throw the rule book of politics away IMO. Rules of conventional political wisdom seem to be being broken every day. The elderly incumbent government in the UK is resurgent “thanks” to the GFC. A brand-new conservative government in Canada is in jeopardy, again thanks to the GFC.
Back in 07 another long-accepted rule was broken: that PMs always hold their own seats. (I’m with Scorpio: seeing Maxine take Bennelong off the LR was a priceless highlight).
So I wouldn’t be taking anything for granted about how the GFC might or might not benefit the Liberals.
Labor could easily (and truthfully) portray Costello as a lazy so-and-so who only appeared to be good with the economy because he’d inherited the job just in time for a global boom plus domestic mining boom. Portraying him as lucky – good luck over good management – thus puncturing the unjustified hot air bubble that surrounds his so-called economic genius.
A comment on an ABC forum the other day was interesting. If Costello is such a genius with the economy, how come he hasn’t been snapped up by anyone during the GFC? It’s more than a year ago now that he said he’d be seeking work in the private sector. What happened?
I can’t escape the impression that the private sector is as underwhelmed with this low-altitude flyer as I and plenty of others are. They can see past the bluster and bignoting, into the diaphanous core. All tip, no iceberg. He appears at first glance to offer so much, but it’s a deception, he’s hollow.
As well as hollow, as already noted, he’s weak, cowardly, immature, gullible, complacent etc. And one of the most committed WorkChoices proponents.
There’s so much material for Labor to work with with Costello that it’s ironic, given that the pollie himself is so unsubstantial.
So I’ll say again: he’d be a gift to Labor, they’d have a field day with him. I’m with those who would relish the sight of seeing him face defeat with no one to blame but himself.
About the probable loss of a NSW seat and a probable gain in Qld …
Where can I find current enrolment figures for electorates in the two states? I’d like to guess which NSW seat will be abolished, and where the new seat in Qld will go.
My hunch (without seeing figures) is that either Watson or Blaxland will be up for the chop in NSW. These are areas of Sydney with a stable population and little room to grow. Also, these seats will be easier to abolish, as surrounding seats that front onto Sydney Harbour, Parramatta River or the Georges River can be expanded into those seat’s former areas.
I don’t think a seat will disappear west of the Great Divide; inland NSW lost a seat in the last electoral cycle when Gwydir was abolished. Nor do I think an inner-city seat will be abolished, given the growth of apartment-dwellers in seats such as Sydney, Kingsford Smith, etc. The North Coast, Central Coast and South Coast are also growing in population. Ditto for the western outskirts of the Sydney metropolitan area.
As for Qld, it’s hard for me to guess where the new seat will be. In the past decade we’ve had Blair (western outskirts of Brisbane), Bonner (eastern suburbs) and then Flynn (central Queensland, which “pushed” other seats southwards, more or less creating a new Sunshine Coast seat – Wide Bay). Maybe another Gold Coast seat?
The latest enrolment figures are here, but I don’t know how illuminating a guide they are to what seat is likely to be abolished. Because the previous redistribution was such a short time ago, the deviations are pretty small.
Two 14% plus diviations in vic reely stand out You’d expect future strong growth in Gold coast basin , and planned ’suburbs’ there ar massive , but current enrollment stats don’t make that a given
Cuppa , one can list all th bagage costello carrys which is heavy not least being interest rate increases , W/C , and CC , but if I’m on Rudd heading into uncertain econmic times against Turnbull with no econamic credibility at all , and I’m Rudd easily leading him 55/45 2PP average this year why I would I want to a different horse called Costello racing me ….who th punters probabley don’t like because of past bagage but may I reckon 55/45 is as good as it gets , and probably over likely result
Queensland’s figures would be the more useful of the two states. Since the committee did the last Qld redistribution with a view to another redistribution in the next (i.e. this) term.
In NSW on the other hand, they allowed for the usual seven year timeframe. So some over-quota seats may be that way because they’re still to naturally lose voters and vice-versa.
That said, Wentworth is interesting. It appears to be more over quota than one would expect. Perhaps it might actually contract this time after expanding in the last redistribution? Be interesting to see the projected figures when they’re published.
Actually, Victoria has three +14% divisions.
But don’t feel too sorry for the voters of Gorton, Lalor and McEwen. They still have fewer enrolled than Canberra and Fraser.
Springborg has taken up practicing ”Joh Speak” telling public servants he would axe their jobs because they were “denecessary”.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24756681-3102,00.html
Cap’n Ahab can hardly believe his luck. Santa has arrived early.
The Credible Alternative Government Coalition Pod has beached itself, again. Lots of noisy splashing, futile flailing of flukes, and spouting of hot air. Distress calls everywhere.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24758663-601,00.html
Will Turnbull cut through? Will he take the flensing knife to his problems? Will he use the opportunity to buy a bit of time, and a few liberal parliamentary supporters, by providing them with shadow ministries currently occupied by Nat Blubber? Will Turnbull also take the opportunity to provide Bishop with an alternative career opportunity? Or will he keep taking the Pod back to the beach?
If he sticks with the Nats, how can he discipline them? If he does not stick with them, what does it mean for the NatLibs in Queensland?
If the Credible Alternative Government does spend more and time on the beach, when will the Great White Whale re-enter the picture?
Boerwar, how do you know that it was not just the Federal coalition’s legendary refusal to work on Fridays that was the cause of their problems in the early hours of Friday morning? Maybe they could have produced some cardboard cut-outs of coalition members to avoid the problems.
Oz @548
And with petrol prices are so low at the moment, you’ll no doubt have a few collaborators. (I’ll be there, but given my distaste for the man, I’ll probably upgrade to industrial hydrochloric acid.)
Now a gaffe for Turnbull on foreign policy. Not looking good for him.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gaffe-makes-turnbull-a-risk-says-rudd/2008/12/05/1228257317713.html
dario
where’s dolly when you need him.
harumph
From Alan Ramsay’s column about the kerfuffle over Rudds travel expenses.
Toad is his word not mine Mr Bowe, so hope that I won’t be sin binned
sorry link here
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/canberra-decamps-for-summer-of-love/2008/12/05/1228257318844.html?page=3
Dario Rudd made gaffes as bad as that one when he was opposition leader, your gotcha posts seem to point you have an affinity with Tony Jones…
Come on Glen if Rudd made such a gaff you would be on here shouting it from the rafters and it would be making front page news. The Libs from Turnbull down would be saying that it was a sign of inexperience. You know and I know it.
There’s trouble in Liberal paradise.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24758663-601,00.html
I would…and you have too but all im saying is Rudd has made such mistakes in the past too.
Glen and he has been criticised for them by your mob. So what’s your point? Turnbull shouldn’t be criticised? Rudd shouldn’t have been criticised? What?
No my point is which is worse, making a mistake in a speech about China or leaking a private phone call from W??
Which is more dangerous?
Glen (571), you have just admitted that you too “have an affinity with Tony Jones…” and his gotchas. LOL
LOL What has happened to Tony has he dropped off the face of the earth?
Oh, so now it comes down to degrees. So it is ok for Turnbull to be criticised on this or not?
I’m sure we could all come up with examples that are even less “important” than this that have seen Rudd been pilliaried by you and your mates.
Tell me Glen, just how dangerous has that leak proven to be? Name one disaster that has followed from that leak.
I didnt say that Turnbull shouldnt get bad press for his gaffe!
575 – one can only hope.
Sorry Glen must go. I enjoy our jousts.
McEwen, Gorton & Lalor all well over quota.
Adding to this was the announcement this week by the Victorian Government expanding Melbourne’s grwth corridor, the main changes impact on these three seats plus the other nearly over quote seat of Holt.
The AEC may be tempted to solve Holt’s problems by enlarging Kooyong & Higgins therefore pushing all other seats out towards Holt, this would inturn lead to the norther end of Holt moving into Bruce and Hotham.
For the other side of town there is an arguement for a new seat in effect taking the north east corner of Metro Melbourne, this would possiblely mean Lalor (Julia Gillard) looses part of Melton
Under Premier Brumby’s new boundary Melbourne will be allowed to grow along the Hume Hwy, this directly impacts on the seat of McEwen and by allowing Sunbury to grow also impacts on the seat of Calwall.
All up I can’t see this having too much of an effect on who holds what seats, but based on current population spread Fran is on the present boundaries in real trouble, I would say that if she were to retire I would expect the ALP to gain McEwen in 2010.
The only thing that can hep the Liberals in seats like McEwen is a major economic downturn, I will add with the changes in population the question of a common community of Interest.
The AEC may chose to push McEwen Into the burbs, but if recent changes are an indication then the objective the of AEC is for there to be a rural seat explanding central Victoria.
My understanding is that there won’t be a federal redistribution in Victoria during this parliament. So this is a fairly academic discussion. In any case, trying to guess what the commissioners will do is completely futile. I think they take pleasure in ignoring everybody’s submissions and coming up with surprises. Absolutely no-one guessed that they would abolish Gwydir or Kalgoorlie, or create Flynn.
The NAB not happy with Turnbull either
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24757580-462,00.html
Apparently Tiger W’s “appearance fee” to play here is about $4M. EffOff, give Siberian Tiger anytime, the real tiger.
Interesting bit missing from shananhananhanahan’s article ??
Surely allbull HAS FAILED “THE TEST” of leadership of the coalition ?
Everything the Ruddster addresses whether in opposition or Government is labelled “A TEST” according to the OO. Why not the same with the fibs ?
Also an interesting snippet in todays Fin Rev – apparently the government benches burst into chorus during the week at mesma, singing the Tom Jones song – What’s new pussycat.
Ain’t life Grand.
Adam!! I totally agree with you, the AEC is some way off conducting a retriubution in Victoria!
I’m not surprised that the Banks are critising Malcolm Turnbull for his opportunitic opposition to what ahs become a very serious situation.
Has I have written before this crisis has the potentialm to do more harm to Turnbull than anybody else, as long the economy remains recession free.
That is a huge mistake by Turnbull, it equates with Latham amatuerism in foreign affairs.
Rudd is playing chess whilst the opposition are playing checkers.
At this rate come next election will anyone in the media or the business community even consider supporting the Liberals.
Castle! What was the context of Kevin Rudds remarks and did the second part concerning Turnbull’s view on the U.S and China also come from Rudd for its a fascinating point.
MB: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gaffe-makes-turnbull-a-risk-says-rudd/2008/12/05/1228257317713.html
Thank you Dario!
MB
From the article that Dario posted, Turnbulls statement equates with recognising Taiwan as an independent nation. It is a blunder that not even Downer would have made.
Laurie Oakes on Turnbull. The headline says it all –
“Gutless and inept u-turn”
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24757974-5000117,00.html
“As a consequence of the resentment, Turnbull may find some of his senators digging in and taking a harder line than he wants when the Government’s industrial relations legislation comes before the Upper House early next year.”
If only. A free pass for victory for Labor at the next election.
Gary your side is well ahead but beware of overconfidence or as i like to call it ‘hubris’ in Howard Speak.
Beemer! I think it is the voters who carry out retribution, not the AEC. If the Coalition would be so kind as to give us a DD in 2009, the voters’ retribution on Turnbull and his tatterdemalion coalition will be terrible to behold. Maybe Possum’s prediction that Labor would win Kooyong will be shown to be out by only two years.
Speaking of the potential of a DD election in 2009, are there any potential triggers on the table? Or within possibility of being on the table?
Well Howard DEFINED hubris by failing to resign.
So I see your point.
True ShowsOn one cannot argue otherwise.
DD triggers: I don’t think so. The Senate has to fail to pass a bill *twice*, with a three month interval in between, to provide a DD trigger. So far as I recall, the only substantial bill which has been rejected (as opposed to amended) so far is the Fuelwatch bill, which the government has now abandoned (and which was a bad idea in the first place).
Glen, no hubris here I assure you but Workchoices is poison and they can’t afford to be seen defending it. Labor would have another Workchoices election on their hands, one that they would relish.
The next election certainly won’t be easy but if the Libs can make it a little easler for Labor I’m all for it.
Gary no matter what happens the first thing Rudd will say when he calls the next election is dont put these people back in they’ll bring back Workchoices no matter how much we say we wont Rudd will and it will go down a treat…
I just wish we could actually have an IR policy that has individual contracts (like AWAs) but with all the flexibility and safeguards to conditions, if we dont we’ll simply be the same as Labor on IR and this is no good as far as i am concerned.
Gen
#600
“I just wish we could actually have an IR policy that has individual contracts (like AWAs) but with all the flexibility and safeguards to conditions….”
That view is totaly consistent with Liberal philosopghy…..and it extends everywhere….private health , welfare , private schools
And it is fataly flawed on equity & fairness grounds I hope runbull does take that W/C varition to th people claiming its not reely W/C with floss……55/45 2PP may not then be a bit high reralisticaly
Poor Possum!! will he ever live down the (Kooyong) prediction!
Did he predict Kooyong would go in 07??
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
If I remember correctly he said that applying the polling data in itself would imply Kooyong would be lost. Which is slightly different to thinking it would be lost.
That’d be one interpretation of the analysis that Possum did of the opinion polls that preceded the 2007 election. It would not, however, be an accurate one.
One would be safer making fun of my 100+ seat prediction.
Kooyong is a special case though Possum should have known better for someone who knows more about it than myself…If it is 55-45 at the next election Flaneur your prediction may be right
Well it was Wannon also that was listed on Enemy Marsupial’s site , thought they were unwinnable
No Mexicanbeemer, Possum will never live it down because Possum never made such a prediction in the first place.
I picked 85, I’m hopeless.
I got one thing right though: I predicted that Hillary Clinton wouldn’t win the U.S. election.
I admit that at that stage she was no longer a candidate.
Glen, if the Liberal Party abandons its principles it will be doomed and not worth electing. I’m sure you agree with that. So you should be urging your party to go to the next election on a platform of full restoration of WorkChoices. It’s what you really believe and everybody knows that, so why try and fool people by pretending otherwise? I will have a lot of respect for whoever is Liberal Leader in 2010 if they follow that line, even as I watch them lose another ten seats. And you should also run on a policy that climate change is a myth and that everyone should use as much water as they like.
Flaneur
‘One would be safer making fun of my 100+ seat prediction.’
another fellow traveller
happy happy joy joy
Poss
those in the know,know the truth
The Liberal party doesn’t have sent principles, other than oppose Labor.
The entire party is just full of contradictions between conservative, liberal and libertarian strands. They are only good at hiding these fractures when in government.
Broadly you can say that Labor believes in social justice, anti-discrimination, and equality of opportunity.
But what unifying things do the Liberals believe in? You can’t say minimal government, because they spent the previous decade expanding the federal government by on average 5% a year in $ terms, or 5000 people a year in work force terms.
I hate to say it but the original “principles” of menzies party appear a lot closer to current day labor than current day fibs – or the last 12 years or so.
True.
But the Greens would say Labor’s policies now are close to the policies of the Liberals in the 1980s.
And if they stick to them they won’t either, unless the Rudd government falters so badly they throw it away, God forbid.
Shows
“But the Greens would say Labor’s policies now are close to the policies of the Liberals in the 1980s.”
I would have to agree with that,with the rider that certain policies are still ‘old labor’
Possum!! I never thought you predicted Kooyong would fall! but Adam likes to dig you about that call.
To be fair to Possum the way the polls looked last year there was a time when the Liberal Party looked headed for a wipe out.
Adam i dont know about those policies but i liked the last one…
Perhaps Turnbull aka Rainmaker should run under the slogan…water, water, everywhere so let’s all have a drink!
ShowsOn the principle we run on that Labor doesnt is…Choice.
We want people to have the choice how to run their lives whereas Labor think they know whats good for us!
Employer: “Hello 18yo first-time job applicant, hello unskilled migrant woman job applicant. As a member of the Liberal Party, I believe in CHOICE. So I am giving you a choice. You can sign this legally binding employment contract, under which you will have no entitlements whatever, or you can piss off. Is that not highly principled of me? Take your time, I’ll be back in 30 seconds to see what choice you have made.”
glen
the problem with that is invariably it leads to ‘worstchoices’
Hoax call put Pakistan on High Alert:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24760873-23109,00.html
Gusface we put in place a perfectly good IR system when we won in 1996, which didnt undercut anybody but WC went a bridge too far. The principle itself was part of the reason we had unemployment at 4%.
The choice to be poor?
This is just nonsense. Name one policy of the last year that has limited your choice.
How did WorkChoices improve choice for those with low skills?
Glen: if your lot keep going down the present road, you’ll be lucky if you keep Rudd’s majority under 25 seats in 2010. The only thing going for the Federal Opposition: New South Wales, and the possibility that Rudd will lose a few marginals like Robertson, because of the inept Rees State Government.
Rudd forced people to accept Deposit Guarantee payments when people may have wanted to opt out of them if they felt secure enough.
Workchoices gave more options/choice to employers but perhaps too much.
The only reason your 1996 IR bill wasn’t as draconian as WorkChoices was that you didn’t have a Senate majority. As soon as you got the power to go the whole hog, you went the whole hog. Given the power again, you would do it again.
glen
worstchoices was the reason I became politically active.
The shameless way my wife was sacked ,purely because of worstchoices,totally energised an otherwise apathetic aussie.Besides family friends and work colleagues I also went feral in the blogs.I’m sure a lot of other aussies were similairly enraged.
The real truth is howie lied and was willing to sell out his “battlers” for 30 pieces of silver.with one word “workchoices” the spell was broken.
I will never vote fiberal again.
Not after it was the main reason we lost an election, we arent that stupid!
OK enough picking on poor old Glen. What has happened to Edward St John and Generic Person?
adam
ESj is still suffering from intestinal problems after eating so many hats.
They got sick of being abused i guess or there is somewhere out there is an Australian Politics blog where only Tories post…the promised land
glen
its called News ltd
Murdoch’s SA rag has a two page spread that says lots of nice things about Therese Rein. Can’t find it on-line, but here’s a sample:
Makes a nice change from her predecessor who didn’t want to set foot in the Lodge and whose only interest was keeping hubby in the top job from where he could continue to abuse, torture and humiliate the less fortunate.
Mayo i think you are being awfully unkind to Mrs Howard.
She did a lot of work for Breast Cancer…
She also helped the furniture removal industry immensely.
“Insiders” should be interesting tomorrow. If they can’t find something positive to say about Labor and something negative to say about the Libs then they are not serious.
Steve and you wonder why so few Liberals post on pollbludger!
Hey Glen do you ever visit Mr Blot? His blog is a conservatives paradise. Don’t get me wrong I’m very happy you’re here to “kick around” (LOL).
Not many lefties here Glen
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
Nah i like Pollbludger…plus if i didnt post here it would be boring i guess.
How could you not love her? She gave Kirribilli Removals his best job, and the renovators are still trying to get the fingernail marks out of the floor.
Therese Rein is a real unsung heroine, and I’m glad the word is getting out.
Roxanna, taxpayer funded Chesterfields are so classy, aren’t they?
I wonder if this is the sort of thing the internet filter will block.
I hope not, doing so would just reinforce the conspiracy theory infused world people who frequent such sites live in.
It would also contradict the implied constitutional guarantee of political free speech found to exist by the High Court in the Theophanous case.
Gusface at number 629 wrote:
Gus, I’m in exactly the same boat, and WorstChoices was the force that turned the ignition key. I’m like you: will never vote for them again.
If there’s two of us (and maybe others besides) in the microcosm of the Poll Bludger forum, there must be many thousands more across the nation.
This reminds me of “How to start World War 3 with a bag of 10p pieces” from a 1980s comedy book by Adrian Edmondson (still best remembered as Vyv from The Young Ones). Starting from the premise that world leaders’ addiction to owning phallic missiles is rooted in insecurity over the size of their “nobs”, Edmondson suggests that you and a friend find a pair of adjoining public telephones, have one ring the Kremlin and pretend to be Reagan, while the other rings the White House and pretends to be Gorbachev.
Meanwhile …
Now put the two phones together, keep feeding in the 10p’s and wait four minutes.
I never voted for them in the first places, despite my impeccable bourgeois background. (I was put down for Geelong Grammar and the MCC at birth.) The Vietnam War had that effect on people.
Roxanna at number 643 wrote:
Kevin too, in a largely unrecognised way, spreads compassion about. I think you’d enjoy this article:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/softer-side-of-rudd-begins-to-emerge/2008/02/29/1204226991245.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
There’s a poll currently running on the ABC blog Unleashed with the question: “… Are the Coalition is disarray?”
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/
LOL
… in disarray …
cuppa
the irony of worstchoices was that howard,in one stroke, dienfranchised his “battler” base.
The success of orgs. such as getup is a direct testament to Howard.
I suppose his epitaph will read “the best friend the workers never had’
I feel for true Liberal Party people like Glen for his side were in office for 11 years and in that time the Howard Government trashed the basic principles that made the Party of Deakin & Menzies the G.O.P of Australian politics.
That Party is sadly for people like Glen is dead to many people and it will take many years for the Liberals to recover, the simple truth is the Liberal Party had the ALP on the ropes 11 years ago and only needed to Govern with commonsense and we may never have had another ALP Government.
But the Liberals allowed themselves to become narrow, lacking in any real Liberal or Conservative policy framework and now are themselves on the ropes, I suspect the ALP will not make the same mistakes that the Liberal Party made.
To prove my point, Malcom Turnbull should be at home in the currant climate with the debate being dominated by the economy but instead Malcolm Turnbull is under pressure with a divided team as shown in the Senate.
Poor Minchim needed to go to the loo and have a coffee, look I can understand the need to go to the loo but he must have known that a vote was close at hand, I’m sure the vote could have been delayed while he visited the loo.
Julie Bishop while being someone I like is clearly not up to it if she cannot beat up Wayne Swan! yes Mr Swan has grown into the role and I for one have previously called for his head but to Swan’s credit he has lifted his game but partly because Bishop has been soft on him.
Malcolm needs to clean out his frontbench and install the likes of Billson and Paynes, not that it will mean much for what does Turnbull stand for, he is showing that he has learnt little from the republic debate during which Sophie Mirrabella beat him up on several occasions.
Adam at 649,
They keep burning their bridges, and to make matters worse, as Possum has pointed out, they are also losing their core following due to “natural attrition”.
http://possumcomitatus.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/the-coalitions%E2%80%99-demographic-train-wreck/
Can I just say, I always appreciate your authoritative postings. I have learned a lot by reading you and appreciate the depth of political insight. Thanks, and keep up the good work.
Possum needs a visit from Apostrophe Man
Cuppa, thanks for your comment. Re the depth of my political insight, just remember my confident predictions that Hillary Clinton would the nominee and that Obama would lose if he were nominated
I barracked for Obama, but must say I’m surprised a black man won. Actually I’m surprised the Democrats put forward both a woman and a black man. They must have had great faith to gamble so high.
The following would be a good fightcard
Adam Vs Possum
Julie (Catwomen) Bishop V Julia Gillard
The irony of Obama is I always expected Americans to elect a Woman president before a Black president
As always with Possum’s analysis, he places too much faith in statistics and not enough on an understanding of political history. He assumes that the boomer generation will carry their political views with them as they advance into old age. many will, of course, but many won’t. The over 60 age group has always been the most conservative, regardless of how they voted in their youth. It’s in the nature of old people to become more conservative. As the boomers retire and become pensioners or self-funded retirees, they will join the “grumpy oldies” generation and will become increasingly resentful of all these lazy youngsters who didn’t do it tough like we did etc etc, and as a result many of them will flip to the conservatives. In short I don’t believe in Possum’s generational-based demographic trainwreck. The REAL demographic problem for the Coalition is that the single most powerful indicator of Labor voting is having one or both parents born in a non-English-speaking country, and this proportion of voters is steadily increasing. That’s why John Howard lost Bennelong, for example.
Interesting that Cuppa @ 655 recalled Possum’s piece on the demographics of the Coalition being a problem for them. I’d been thinking about this since yesterday, on and off. There was also Possum’s piece on the twin and difficult- to- reconcile bases of the Coalition, which, since the debacle of the past week and particularly, the Nationals and Liberals performance on the Infrastructure Bill, pretty much confirms this problem for the Coalition. It’s also my observation, for what it’s worth, that Malcolm Turnbull does not have sufficient authority, or anything else, to hold this motley crew together.
Cuppa, the Democrats didn’t “put foward” a woman and black man – they put themselves forward. American parties don’t choose their own candidates, the voters do it for them.
Just found this great quote over on the Doonesbury site:
["[Obama] says we only have one president at a time. I’m afraid that overstates the number of presidents we have.”
– Rep. Barney Frank]
Dunno about that, Adam in Canberra, I’m fair square in that demographic, i.e., 59. All and I mean, all of my contemporaries, of whom I know their voting intentions, and yes, of course it’s a small and biased sample, would be more likely to vote Green at the State level, strategically, but would never, ever, the universe will implode, etc., before we would vote for the Coalition.
I’m not a statistician but I know an invalid sample when I see one.
Does anyone?
If Turnbull was rolled would he stick around?
Why would any bother rolling him? Far better for the whole coaliton to implode for a couple years until Greg Hunt’s voice drops and he can be leader.
Adam, thanks, I’ll amend that: Clinton and Obama must have had great faith to put themselves, as members of “minorities”, forward for nomination. Of course one would need incredible self-conviction to run for the world’s highest office. Thank deity and the American people it paid off, in no small part due to Dubya being such a simian. It was time. But oh gee, the job Obama’s got ahead of him.
Caroline Kennedy considering the senate vacancy of Hillary Clinton.
http://thepage.time.com/2008/12/05/report-kennedy-paterson-discuss-senate-seat/?xid=rss-page
Vote on who should take Hilary’s senate spot:
http://www.doonesbury.com/media/strawpoll/strawpoll.tt
Harry at number 664,
Keep spreading the word!
Adam!! It is true that as people age they become more Conservative, but at the same time the ALP are becoming more conservative, also many boomers who become ALP did so as a result of the Whitlam Government and the manner in which it was dismissed.
I suspect the 30s somethings are more conservative than the boomers but that is just an observation
We’re the generation that were caught up in the Vietnam War in one way or another, Adam. Whether Possum’s analyses hold up with time, we’ve yet to see, but they’re certainly food for thought. Am certainly just as interested in what yourself, William, Antony Green and some other folk write about politics. I’m inclined to listen to whatever information I think is of use, and make up my own mind.
Of course, I know it’s an invalid sample, but my point was stereotyping demographic groupings may hold some dangers, and that statistical analysis might aid understanding.
Re long-term Liberal leaders. I agree that Hunt is the most moderate and presentable, and therefore most likely to appeal to Pollbludgers, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he is the best. Tony Smith has been sidelined but has talent. Dutton is not stupid and may yet impress. Scott Morrison has potential. Alex Hawke has been mysteriously silent since his election. I assume he is waiting until people forget his infamous past before showing his fangs.
Tony Smith did himself no favours from what he said in the Howard Years…
adam
most people i know think hunt is a silly tosser,bit like the “new chum” yet to learn the ropes.
His fake empathy is good for a laugh tho
To quote Buddy Ackerman:
Can i ask pollbludgers who they think could lead the ALP if not Rudd or Gillard?
Oddly, he occasionally gets to ask a quesiton in QT.
Dutton may yet impress… but that’s a big ‘may’. First he should see if he can beat Roxon before aiming higher.
Harry, most people do not vote out of ideological conviction, they vote out of perceived economic self-interest, and once you retire your perception of your self-interest changes. The single most important fact about old people is that they retire and lose their earning power, and thus become dependent either on the pension or on their savings. At the same time their health costs rise as they age, and they increasingly fear serious illness and/or poverty. Regardless of previous political loyalties, these are powerful conservatising factors. The over 60s have ALWAYS been the Liberal Party’s strongest demographic, because they pose as the party of security, stability and prosperity.
Have heard Peter Dutton speak in Question Time. Must say he didn’t come across as rabid as others such as Abetz, Abbott, Hockey etc. If there must be a Liberal leader I’d be happy enough with him.
Geez, the proverbial two busses!
Tony Burke, in the long term.
Thought Shorten, but his stocks seem to have really slipped.
“Can i ask pollbludgers who they think could lead the ALP if not Rudd or Gillard?”
Costello could always make a comeback,Glen. We had him before you did.
Tanner.
If she does, she, is the most likely to be the US’s first female POTUS after Obama’s term.
But he’s from the left faction William you reckon he’d get a shot?
I’d say the Liberals could easily do away with 8-10 MPs and bring in some new blood, better to do it now than wait!
albanese or roxon
So’s Gillard. Anyway, the question was could, not would.
[To continue] And of course these factors apply MOST to retired working-class people, because they are less likely to have private resources to fall back on in old age. Many a militant trade unionist has become a retired grumpy pensioner. Thus it is the ALP that tends to lose votes from changed attitudes among older voters. As life expectancy increases, the number of very old voters is increasing, and they are the most likely to fear illness and poverty and thus fear change and insecurity.
I agree on Tanner if these two busses came along tomorrow
Tanner has been called the best politician in our generation.
I wonder what public opinion is of Gillard…I know the media are in love with her but do average Australians feel happy with her as PM down the track?
Joel Fitzgibbon would be my pick for the ALP down the road.
We want names!!!
Ah yes, Adam, they pose as the party of security, stability and prosperity. But they have been clearly exposed for a position/idealogy that does not have these things as they’re core position/idealogy. I would have thought Labor had seized that ground now. “We will do whatever it takes” etc. to keep Oz from recession.
Wasn’t that title previously given to Latham and Abbott?
Tanner.
Well the essential research poll of her was pretty good versus Turnbull… but you’re right it’s hard to judge. However I don’t think the Libs will be having too many ads of her walking along in sunglasses at the next election.
Get real, people. The 2007 Caucus is the first since 1954 in which the Right has an absolute majority. So it is very unlikely that anyone from the Left can be elected Leader. If Rudd dropped dead tomorrow the ballot would probably be between Gillard and Swan, and Swan would start favourite.
well the polls seem to say so glen.
why joel fitzgibbon?
Grog, have you watched or heard Tanner’s performances? He’s very impressive, and bear in mind, The Piping Shrike’s take on how Rudd has taken politics to a place most in the MSM haven’t really caught on to as yet. So it may no longer matter whether your from the “left” or “right” of Labor. N’est pas?
LOL Grog, I wouldn’t put him in that category.
So, Adam, Rudd hasn’t changed the rules?
The Right is even more sectarian and dominant in the NSW Labor Party than the federal party, yet we’ve now got a Left premier and deputy premier. The factional system is dying. If Rudd lasts for, say, six years, it’ll be Gillard taking over. If it’s longer it will probably one of the up-and-comers like Shorten. Unlike Howard, Keating and Costello, Swan isn’t the sort of treasurer who I could see becoming PM.
Grog…ill name names….
Ruddock
Bronwyn Bishop
Bob Baldwin
Peter Slipper
Margaret May
Fran Bailey
Kevin Andrews
David Hawker
Mal Washer
Judi Moylan
Wilson Tuckey
Brendan Nelson (If he doesnt get into the Shadow Ministry)
Peter Costello (If he doesnt take the leadership)
Petro (he’s going anyway)
We could have 14 new MPs talented people and future leaders/ministers of the Party instead of this dead wood!
Harry, ce n’est pas vrai. It matters, believe me.
Glen, I would add Farmer, Gash, Broadbent, Laming, Lindsay, Macfarlane, Randall, Secker, Somlyay, Vale and Wood.
O.K. Adam. I believe you. Seriously though, have you had a look at The Shrike’s postings of late and what do you make of them?
mmmmmmmmmm, well i was only going on Libs…the Nats pffft!
Ill add Farmer, Gash, was thinking about Russel but he’s only been in since 2004, Macfarlane backs nuclear power so i back him, Don Randall yeah id add him and Somlyay and i guess Wood is going nowhere too
So that’s almost 20MPs we could easily do without…
Harry, Rudd changed the rules for electing the ministry, not for electing the Leader. The reason the NSW Right handed over the premiership to the Left is that they are all going down the toilet and they know it, so who is head turd doesn’t matter much at this point. That is far from the case in Canberra. The Right hasn’t spent 20 years of trench warfare to get where it is only to give away the leadership to the left.
Adam
you missed a few
(in fact replacing the whole lot might be good start)
I agree with Glen’s list of dead wood except I would want Eric Albertz & Helen Coonan to go before Judy Moylan & Margaret May
Yep Petro is going, not that anyone in Kooyong will notice!
Both Peter Costello & Brendon Nelson should be sitting on the Liberal frontbench
I may be wrong but is the reason why Gillard in the Left faction is that would be the faction of her Union or does the individual ALP member choose which faction to join.
Gillard has been the star performer of the Rudd Government and I suspect she will have no problem bercoming leader sometime after 2013 or abouts
I would go further, I associate conservatism with a form of pessimism, it is not surprising to me that people become more pessimistic as the enter the latter stages of their lives.
But haven’t he last three Labor leadership ballots shown us that neither of the factions vote as blocks as they did in the 1980s.
Why Jason Wood is the future of the Liberal Party
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6MqbGJVaIbY
No they aren’t all bad Gusface but we could easily do without those 20 and bring in 20 new people…
Gusface ill bet you would find just as many if not more on the ALP benches who you could do without…
Adam im seriously laughing out loud right now what a fool lol!
I think Fitzgibbon has been the minister who has outperformed expectations the most.
HAHAHAHAHA
Neal, Bidgood, Conroy
WSO – Tanner is da man. His work on LL is particularly good.
And sorry Adam, there’s no way in hell Gillard would not win against Swan.
Swan??? Seriously… Swan???
Cmon there are more Mexican!
glen
at the moment only one:bidgood
besides that they have all done a reasonable to good job (the homeless visits being one of the better examples of principles in action)
(btw I dearly would love the fibs to be competent,i suppose forums such as this act as a de facto opposition at times)
Gusface you obviously arent trying…
He is a long time member of Greenpeace.
Neal, Conroy, Bidgood, Ferguson, George, Irvin, Women from Calwell!!
He supports genetically modified orgasms too by the sounds of them…Adam put him top of my list god how hard is it to read a speech!
Of course Labor has its share of deadwood, but it’s not Labor that’s languishing in Opposition and short of frontbench talent. We’ve had our cleanout (Sercombe, O’Connor, Corcoran, Hoare, Hatton, Sawford, Quick), and we have an embarrassment of talent, with someone of Mark Dreyfus’s stature still on the backbench. Now it’s your turn.
Good list Glen, but Coonan surely would have to go (though I think you only went for HoRs) her age is enough of a handicap – time to go.
re Swan – factions matter yes, but How many on the right seriosuly would think Swan would win them an election?
I never knew our education system was failing this badly!
The Senate doesnt matter that much Grog…the HR is where it all happens.
Harry, Rudd changed the rules for electing the ministry, not for electing the Leader. The reason the NSW Right handed over the premiership to the Left is that they are all going down the toilet and they know it, so who is head t*rd doesn’t matter much at this point. That is far from the case in Canberra. The Right hasn’t spent 20 years of trench warfare to get where it is only to give away the leadership to the left.
neal: once you meet and know her (and having two mates on “that flight”) She is a person to be admired.Ballsy women upset the fibs.why glen?????
conroy: actually one smart cookie who is flushing rabbits out before proceeding with policy initiatives. Will never be leader but has learnt the concept of team (much to his chagrin, i am led to believe)
Are these the same ones who said Kevin Rudd could not win!
Neal, Conroy, Bidgood, Ferguson, George, Irvin, Women from Calwell, Sercombe, O’Connor, Corcoran, Hoare, Hatton, Sawford, Quick
But who after Kev and Julia is a good party starter question Glen.
Unfortunately I must go and spend some time in front of the TV…
Gusface!! hahahahaha o please thank you for making my day!!
Jason Woods for PM!
Genetically modified orgasms for all!
Adam is Fitzgibbon of the Right Faction?
Taht rabbit has myxomatosis. Put it down man!!
My Internet is going very slowly, is that because Conroy’s filter thinks Poll Bludger is similar to Poll Dancing!! there we were thinking this was a family website fit for the kiddies.
Glen, yes.
Conroy is getting a bad press at present because he has refused to become a captive of his department’s clients, the IT industry. It’s easy to be popular just by giving your clientele what they want. He has also upset the left-wing elites (ie, you lot) with his shocking suggestion that the internet should be subject to the same censorship as every other form of media. He is a very smart guy and a very shrewd operator, and will triumph over evil in the long run.
MB
iamgine you are solomon
what do you do
cut up the baby or what?
why do the rules that apply to OLD media not apply to NEW media!
from that point you can see the dilemna that faces ANY gvt.At least Conroy is flushing out the issues rather than ala Coonan,bury your head in the sand
Then id back Fitzgibbon for PM over Madam Julia or Swan…
Glen, well, Fitzgibbon has indeed performed well in Defence, particularly in cleaning up after the shocking procurement debacles you lot left behind, but he doesn’t have much of a public profile. I would assume that Swan would be the Right candidate if there was a ballot any time soon. Burke is a longer-range prospect and Shorten longer-range still.
Shorten…nup
Burke…nup
Fitzgibbon would be a possible contender because he is not disliked by anybody and he doesnt take crap. The reality of Swan is i mean you know could crawl under a rug and not make a bump!
Adam, I think there is a dearth of understanding of positions Swan has held over the years on this blog.
This doesn’t make sense because films, television, and newspapers are subject to three DIFFERENT classification regimes.
The whole point about the Internet was that it wasnt regulated…
I hope everyone is watching All that Heaven Allows on ABC2. The colour in this film is amazing.
I’m a member of the Left-wing elist!! Thanks Adam! I raise a Chardy to you! just don’t ask me what I think of do-gooder welface types for you will be calling me a nasty right-winger!
NewsRadio just a few minutes ago relayed an edition of the BBC World Service’s Digital Planet. Conroy’s filter was one of the stories. Included was the fact that what he’s proposing has the backing of Christian and “family” groups, and puts Australia down there with Iran and China as a country where internet free-speech comes a second to censorship.
It is regulated in the sense that it is illegal to upload, download or share illegal content on the internet.
We just don’t have enough cyber police to enforce the existing laws.
I for one have never said Kiddy pron should be allowed and of-course childern need protecting from adult themes but I’m sure there are ways to do that without slowing the Internet down to a snails pace.
Laws that cannot be enforced need rethinking…
Congratulations Beemer, just goes to show that not everyone becomes more conservative as they age.
shows,MB etc
at the very least “conroys paln” has got people discussing the merits or otherwise.
that is a good way to get good policy outcomes without just arbitarily impose some rule or regulation.
They can’t be enforced because we don’t have enough people to enforce them. All we need is more people with the same skills as the people who break these laws.
That can be done by training and employing people.
Not in countries like Russia or China…
Well lets hire all those reduant Telstra staff who have lost their jobs in the past few years.
Just the sort of idiotic responses I expected. TTFN.
Adam who is that aimed at!
How will the filter stop Australian laws from being broken in Russia or China? It won’t and can’t.
Plus, there is an easy way around the filter already – peer to peer connections that bypass the internet.
Whereas, employing more Australians a dedicated cyber crimes organisation could make Australia a world leader in fighting criminal activity related to both child pornography and terrorism.
Queensland has been cheated out of a Senator. Analysis of the Queensland Senate count shows that Greens Candidate Larisa Walters should have Eben elected to the Senate. She was denied the right to represent Queensland due to the flaws in the current Senate counting system. A system that was designed to facilitate a manual count. A system that is out of date and not accurate.
An international team of experts have confirmed that the Queensland Senate Count had elected the wrong persons. The fault lies in the system used to determine the proportional results. Analysis performed by the OpenSTV project team has indicated that Greens Candidate, Larisa Walters, should have been elected to the Senate instead of ALPs third candidate. The OpenSTV count confirms the early analysis we had performed using a reiterative counting system such as Wright or Meek.
The Australian parliament Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters (JSCEM) is currently considering issues surrounding the method of counting proportional votes in Australia to make it more accurate.
The Australian Electoral Commission was asked by the JSCEM to report back to the committee to confirm the different outcome in the Queensland Results.
Whilst the AEC had the facilities and contacts to undertake detailed analysis they failed to provide the committee with the information requested. instead the AEC provided a lame excuse to do nothing claiming that the system proposed has not been tried before and that all systems in use can provide a different outcome.
Whilst this is true it is still no excuse for the AEC to not undertake a full analsysis and review of the system currently in place. It has opted to keeop the JSCEM in the dark in order for it to not act to correct tthe mistskaes in the system. If Australia waited for anterntive system to be used somewhere else Australia would not have adopted preferential voting in the first place or above the line voting. Innovation and professionalism is lacking in the top end of the AEC administration.
The current system used to elected Australia’s Senate, Victoria’s Upper House and Local Council elections is seriously flawed in that it does not reflect the voters intentions. The counting system in place was designed to facilitate a manual count, a system that was a trade off between accuracy and simplicity.
With the advent and use of computer based technology there is no longer an excuse to maintain the outdated flawed counting system.
The AEC should not wimp out and provide a feeble excuse to do nothing. Clearly the system is flawed and must be changed. Innovation not complacency is required.
The AEC is normally a very professional and responsive organisation but in this instance the AEC has failed in its duty to the Australian People.
The JSCEM must again request the AEC to do its job and report in detail the proposed alternatives that should be implemented.
Re Gillard.I have known Julia for well over 25 years having both served on the Carlton ALP Branch Executive for many years. Yulia is not only smart and capable of holding her gound in any argument she also dosplays commonsence and pragmatism. Yulia played a pivotal role in rebuilding the ALP as John Brumby’s Chief of staff in Victoria.
Sadly intelligence and ability are not necessary qualities to become Prime Minister. Paul Keating was one of Australia’s most intelligent Prime Ministers. He has wit, smarts and could deliver a punch or too in debate with style.
I have never seen Yulia lose an argument or unable to hold her ground in debate.
Wow, I’m getting quoted now.
I like how Adam completely misrepresents Conroy’s policy and then runs away.
His standard M.O. is to assert opinions as if they are facts, then get cranky whenever his opinions are challenged.
Big difference between holding important positions and being leader.
In all fairness to Adam we are not totally sure which comment his last comment refers to! if it was my comment about being a member of the Left elite he should read more of my post for I from time to time lapse into sarcastim.
I have noticed Adam somes times gets cranky!! but I won’t knock him for that for I’m sure I have mis-read comments in the past.
Yeah pretty clever hey!
Thats what the last election was ALL ABOUT !!!
Work CHOICE..S was chucked out thats O U T ! OUT !!
One year ago already. Has that sunk through to the fibs yet ? No !
and thats why they are a shabbles. A disgrace.
Adam
Conroy will fail, the Internet was designed for military use, datagrams can be delivered using multiple paths, multiple ports, and from multiple servers. Content can be encrypted in any manner desired. The money spent will stimulate the economy in about the same way as throwing the stuff out of a helicopter.
It took a 12 year old kid to bypass Howard’s initial attempt, as Conroy throws money at this little attempt to bring censorship to the net the only unknown is the age of the kid that makes a fool of him, the time it takes and how well it gets covered in the press.
Going to look good isn’t it, Conroy sends 8 year old to jail for by passing his filter. Safe for kiddies arguments going to look a bit lame.
If it doesn’t slow down my net speeds and doesn’t cost me money I couldn’t care less what they do, tax payers money has been wasted on things much more frivolous than this. If they block something I am interested in I am more than capable of setting a encrypting proxy server in a country that offers root accounts and greater freedom. If it comes to pass and they cause serious disruptions you will probable be able to get the service for 10 dollars down and 50 cents a week.
I suppose it will give those that oppose any form of censorship a boost, whoever supplies the equipment will get a nice little order and Australia will be the butt of a few jokes for a few months.
Where do you get the ntion that Tanner is “the best politician in our generation.” I would consider Paul Keating to be the best of our Generation. But I guess that depends what you call a generation. Tanner was born in 1956 “An Olympic baby” I think. Tanner and Gillard are cut from the same cloth.
All 3 are magnificant !
“Malcolm Turnbull hasn’t been here that long, he has to understand that he can’t put up proposals totally unacceptable to rural Australia and expect us to fall into line. We never had this problem under John Howard because the Nationals were always accommodated,” Senator Boswell said.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24758663-601,00.html
It is easy to see why the Nats got so lazy. If Boswell crosses the floor a couple more times it will be the first sustained exercise regime he has had for some time. For the record, in how many ways did Howard ‘accommodate’ the nationals?
Let’s make a list.
Sugar industry ‘restructure’. Squillions down the tubes. More sugar farmers after the restructure than before it got going. Nice ‘accommodation’, that one.
Diesel rebate to primary producers. A little bit contrary to the policy imperative of reducing CO2 emissions? Nice accommodation, that one.
Regional Rorters Funds. Self explanatory. A self-accommodating model of program delivery.
I’m sure that some of you will have your favourites as well.
Big trouble in the toy world with a bunfight over ‘Bratz Dolls’ due to copyright issues.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081205/bs_nm/us_mattel_larian
Er … off topic, Steve.
Some guesses about what GP is doing (instead of adding a much-needed dose of p*ss and vinegar to this site):
1. Crunching the numbers for Tip.
2. Attending a conservative parties despair workshop.
3. Counting the reduction in his/her (their) available capital.
4. Looking for another job in the financial services industry.
5. Being stuck in an airport in Thailand.
*Homage to Australia’s Neo-Wowsers. (Why is that those who lust for power with such fanatical desire so often seek to control and manage the ‘private’ parts, sexual activities and reproductive behaviour of others?)
WB, I know but I thought the silly season might have started.
Rudd and Gillard putting too high expectations on staff? If so, ‘hypocritical’ and ‘ruthless’ would be appropriate terms. If not, why the unusually high turnover?
Conroy crook with the shakes… and is helped by a Liberal. A moment of decency.
Congratulations to Ronaldson for doing his job. Golly, it ain’t much, but it is what members of the Opposition should all be doing. There is close attention to detail and the single-mindedness of Jack Russells chasing rats down drainpipes. (Metaphorical enough, I should think, to meet the strict guidelines of this site?).
Faulkner should be doing the big cringe on the ‘Caucus Committees Support and Training Unit’. B*gger me, it didn’t take long for that particular bent fiddle to translate from the much-tainted NSW comrades to the Labor Feds. The Labor Feds should get rid of it straight away, if they have any sense of decency at all. Faulkner should have killed it stone dead when it was first raised. Faulkner only has two jobs: keep it organised (ten out of ten); and keep it clean (was 10 out of 10 but now maybe 8 out 10, and the wedge has been opened.)
http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudds-staff-quit-as-247-pace-takes-its-toll-20081206-6swp.html
The ACT is expected to publish the preference data for the territory’s election this month. Why it has taken them this long is anyone’s guess. This information should be readily available and a certified copy should be required to be published as part of the declaration procedures as soon as each count has been completed. (Including preliminary counts)
To the ACT’s credit it has open sourced its counting programs.All other commissions are trying to maintain propriety ownership over the source code. The commissions have spent millions of dollars developing and duplicating software.It is in many cases unknown who owns this code. The government or the company contracted to develop it. If the later then questions need to be asked why the Government had not followed the ACT lead and opens sourced the code..
Sadly computerised counting of elections in Australia is not open and transparent. There are those who profit from this lack of transparency. Without open and transparent procedures in place the system is very much open to the possibility of corruption and abuse.
The Age’s Paul Daley has chucked yet another wobbly. This week his target is Julie Bishop.
Lamenting the unfortunate place of innuendo and rumour inthe rise of politicians (or their fall) Daley then proceeds to lace his entire story with… innuendo and rumour. Cop this for Daley’s giant of an imagination. There’s always a “But”:
“Attractiveness” is a subjective thing. But to theorize that the entire Parliament is giving Julie the “elevator stare” every time she gets up to speak is really gilding the lily. Daley’s basic point hinges on the thought (which must be in every man’s mind because Paul thinks he is Everyman) that Julie bonked her way to the top. Even for Julie, for whom I have no particular attraction at all, this is an outrageous statement. It essentially claims that if you’re good-looking (I know, I know, those eyes!) and female, then you have no chance of making it good in politics unless you give, uhm, “favours” to powerful men in the party.
I think this article says more about Daley than Bishop. Lately he’s been tripping on his own little moonbeam, with his “Big Ears” Rudd comments and such like. I guess he’s been brought in to “sex up” political coverage, writing for both the Sunday Age and the Sun-Herald (due to paucity of troops on the ground after the recent sackings), but this is ridiculous, truly ridiculous, and definitely uncalled for.
776 – I’m sure everyone will be shedding a tear at the public servants being forced to work hard.
I note that article doesn’t explain how if this is a do nothing, all spin government why the public servants are quitting for being over worked.
I also wonder if the public servants prefer the situation where they get to choose their departure or have it chosen for them like it was when Howard got in.
Was each public servant asked why they left?
What percentage of those who left were leaving anyway for their own personal reasons?
Why “hypocritical” when they are working so hard themselves?
“Ruthless”? Thank heavens we have people in government who are prepared to work their butts off during this GFC, that’s all I can say.
Ever heard the saying – if you can’t stand the heat …….? We need people who can stand the heat at the moment and that goes for both politicians and public servants.
I think the idea is that the public servants are being worked into the ground generating spin documents that are rarely read, much less implemented as policies. If you take this point of view you can say that the government is still “do nothing” and is still “working their staff into the ground” i.e. to no good end result.
Whether this is true or not, I don’t know. We only have the word of a few journalists whose stories in the past have been models of fantasy and wishful thinking, with no actualy relationship to the facts. But a good way to get rid of a staff member without actually sacking him or her is to work them so hard they resign. Might be a few ex-Howard types around still who need that message, particularly the Treasury Leaker.
turnover CAN be an indicator of a poor workplace, but there are so many potential alternative reasons.
Where are the staff who leave going to?
It’s not a hard question is it.
Apparently the answer didn’t come from the coalition senator who fed the story to the ‘journalist’…
Of course the offices of Rudd and Gillard couldn’t possible be a well orchestrated training ground for advisers could it? A reward for election efforts?
And of all of those disgruntled, overworked and bitter ex-employees, apparently the ‘journalist’ couldn’t get a response from one.
Anther small note: the costs included in the article look pretty efficient in comparison to the corporate world.
There’s more evidence of a ‘dysfunctional’ journalist in that article than anything else.
My understanding of the staff turnover story is that state minister/premier’s offices pay better and are less work (obviously); so if you’re a party hack (err policy officer) it’s fairly obvious where you’d want to work – esp if you have a family.
Kevin Rudd and Jules Gillard have a high staff turnover!! there could be many factors in this.
1) Some may have only been on a set contracts
2) Person’s work performance may not have been at the required level
3) Other opportunities within a person’s professional field may have arisen
4) Rudd is a shit boss
5) As policy issues changed certain people may no longer have been required
6) Ex Howard staff finally moved on
All employers have issues of staff turnover! I know of companies which have worst turnovers than Rudd & Gillard and often the cause is as I have listed above.
Forget the PS BS story, yet another attempt to dent Ruddy’s popularity.
It ain’t working. Poor bloke cant even buy a book without getting mobbed.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/nuns-having-fun-new-rudd-favourite-20081206-6swx.html
BB
that daley piece is pure unadulterated shite.
all it shows is that daley is as thick as two bricks and a sad excuse for a male.
he should review where his moral base comes from, and perhaps take a course in journalism
Any links for this stuff?
Good afternoon.
My apologies for my cranky parting comment last night. It wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular, just at this endlessly repeated assertion that the internet, as our medium of choice, should for some reason be free of the restrictions that ordinary folk have to accept in their media of choice (TV etc). Anyway enough of that for now.
Her name is Julia not Yulia. Has the FSB totally reprogrammed your brain or what?
I saw Insiders today for the first time in many months. I figured my TV screen would be relatively safe after the week the “Coalition” just had. Even Piers and Glen would have had difficulty talking them up. The temptation to hurl my wife’s nearest valuable vase, flowers and all, at it couldn’t possibly be great.
Frankly, all in all, that turned out to be true, though the absence of Piers and Bolt was a significant contributing factor.
Anyway, to the point. I learned, or at least had confirmed, a few things I had suspected, as have others on this site.
Firstly, these tools, and no doubt other commentators, use William’s site as a mine for ideas, overviews, and indeed direct quotes, to regurgitate as their own. Each with a different spin of course, and occasionally a modified turn of phrase, or an agitated rebuttal, but for someone who regularly visits here and keeps up with what is happening politically, the conclusion is irrefutable. These hacks are thought thieves, without the decency of attribution.
Secondly, the Coalition was convinced that the September quarter figures would be stage one of the recession process, and that growth would be negative. This was planned to be the harbinger of a tirade of blame invective towards Labor, the Reserve Bank and Treasury. How could the Government have got it so wrong! The recession is due to the rate rises! Inflation was non existent! Rates should have been reduced earlier!
But horror of horrors, we did not get negative growth, the first technical domino in that regard did not fall. What to do, what to do? Well interpret the data, for a start. That shows that the agricultural component was slightly higher than the manufacturing, so it can be argued that the reason for growth being positive is due to farming.
An attempt was made to run with that but was quickly pulled up when it was realized that it would not be a good look to suggest Labor policies were benefiting the country after years of drought, losses, property walk outs, and coalition mismanagement, AWB, etc.
The Liberals were stymied.But then on Insiders Paul Kelly rode in to the rescue.
The September figures, according to our Paul, reflect a downturn in activity from June to September. The Global Financial crisis did not OCCUR until September, and therefore Labor had the economy falling to the ropes before it happened in the rest of the world. In fact on that basis we can blame the GFC directly on Labor!
Never mind that it has just been revealed that the American economy has been in deep recession since last November. Never mind it was spawned by profligate merchant bankers and their legally and morally bereft practices and greed for many years. Never mind it has sent other first and second world economies into disaster zones not seen since the Great Depression while Australia is still technically in growth.
No, the September quarter started in June and the Government caused it all by acting in accordance with all known and respected economic principles, when it should have acted on the basis of an omniscience no other Government in the world possessed. It should have known and acted upon the September figures well before the facts upon which the data is based occurred.
Well, I’m sure the Liberals will be grateful for Paul’s assistance and will eagerly run with it.
Pleasant Sunday all.
Perhaps our dear William could be persuaded to set up a stick “Gotcha” thread?
Super post Fulvio. I wouldn’t worry about Paul Kelly, his logic is even too stupid for the liberals to run with!
1) No one in this thread asserted that the internet should be completed unregulated. What you seem to be arguing against no one actually proposed.
2) Use of the internet is already subject to the criminal code, and the 1995 media classification act. Illegal materials are illegal on the internet, as they are illegal if published in a magazine, newspaper, TV show or included in a theatrically released film. The problem isn’t that we don’t have enough laws, it is that we don’t have enough people will the I.T. skills to enforce the laws.
3) Who are these “ordinary folk” you speak of, and why should they determine how media is regulated? We don’t rely on such people to determine what goes in newspapers, why should they be given this position regarding the internet? What makes the internet different, when you seem to be saying it should be treated the SAME as other media? Do these “ordinary folk” even use the internet?
Reverting to an abstract and undefined group to support your claim makes it sound completely arbitrary.
I suggest that tax payer’s money would be better spent on training and employing people with the skills to work out how pedophiles and cyber-terrorists use the internet to conduct illegal activities.
The government could do lots to fix this. They could set up a specialised IT / Law enforcement course at a university (say ANU) and award say a dozen scholarships a year to high acheiving I.T. undergraduates to specialise in cyber-crime / terrorism.
They could give a dedicated AFP department a huge budget so it employs all the graduates who received those scholarships. Over time it could become a world leader in this sort of crime fighting.
The solution is that to stop these crimes the material must be REMOVED from the internet, and the people that make and distribute it be put in jail. If the material remains on the internet, then people will work out a way to access and distribute it. A filter doesn’t REMOVE the content from the internet, it just tries to hide it. That may annoy or disrupt these criminals for a short time, but eventually they’ll figure out a way to get what they want.
Yes of course all this material is in theory illegal already, but as you say there is no mechanism in place to enforce the law. What Conroy is proposing is a mechanism, an internet filter, to block this material. It can’t be “removed from the internet” because nearly all of it comes from overseas. All Australia can do is block it. To oppose the principle of an internet filter is to argue that the law should remain a dead letter, and any kind of material should remain freely available on the internet. That is not the case with any other kind of media, such as TV, radio, cinema, etc, where the law both exists and is enforced.
Now you can argue that the technical solution being proposed by Conroy is unworkable, and I will agree that you may be right – I’m not qualified to argue that point. But to oppose the principle of what Conroy is attempting is a political position, and one I oppose.
Adam!! That’s cool!
I for one agree that the Internet should not be excluded from general media regulations.
The point I made about using former Telstra staff was that its a ready made I.T workforce with a good understanding of Internet use therefore you could hire them and have them monitor the Internet.
The irony of the Internet is that it is very easy to track down websites and other content by searching for key terms in Google or another search engine.
I know that YouTube has some age restrictions on certain videos, Psycho shower scene comes to mind but their are many videos which may well be part of a movie or or whatever contain violence’s.
As I wrote you only need to do a key word search to find these things, I’m sure Conroy’s heart is in the right place on this issue but I would prefer increased monitoring and also for Parents to take greater responsibility.
Onto other issues.
Thinking about the Liberals, I think the biggest problem they have is they have the talent but in the wrong spots.
Leader = Peter Costello
Treasury = Malcom Turnbull
Finance = Andrew Robb
Health = Brendon Nelson
Education = Joe Hockey
Foreign Affairs = Nick Minchim
Infrasture = Bruce Billson
I.R = Julie Bishop
Attorney General = Marie Paynes
Environment = Greg Hunt
While on the ALP side apart from swapping Swan with Tanner, there are n other changes I would make maybe drop Stephen Smith for Maxine or Mike Kelly
Adam, I suggest you re-read or re-listen to what Conroy is actually proposing.
You’re using a straw-man argument by suggesting that one thing must be done and then tying that to the Government’s position, when that’s clearly not the case.
The arguments against the filter, before getting to technicalities, are numerous and include purpose and scope.
No other medium in Australia, be it TV, radio or cinema, is subject to a blacklist created by bureaucrats and to be kept secret from the public. And no other medium in Australia can be censored at the whims politicians as has already begun to happen with this filter. No other medium in Australia is blocked of content that is defined as “unwanted” by the discretion of the Minister or other Members of Parliament.
No. Conroy knows very well that this filter won’t work to “block” anything. That’s what his lab trials showed him. The next step was going to be “live trials”. But now that he’s realised that “live trials” will just show how pathetic an idea this is he’s backed away from “live trials” and “evidence based policy” as the trials that begin on December 24th will be a simulation.
Any systems engineer knows that you cannot take seriously the results of a “simulation” in testing a blacklist and attempt to scale it up to 7 million real live users using the internet in millions of different ways, let alone call it a “live trial”.
I agree that politicians should not decide what kind of material should be blocked, that should be done by the same process as is used for film etc.
I’m not talking about what children access on the internet, I’m talking about what adults access. Adults do NOT have a “right to watch whetever they like” in any other medium, and I don’t see why such a right should be created solely for internet users.
This proves my point. YouTube’s “age restriction” can be circumvented by clicking a button saying you are over 18. Whoo-hoo, some restriction. If there is illegal material on YouTube, and YouTube can’t or won’t delete it, then the government has both the right and duty to block it.
Oz, I said I am not qualified to argue the technical merits of Conroy’s proposal. What would you suggest he do? “Nothing” is not an acceptable answer.
Adam!! Youtube ask the age question before you can view the shower scene in the movie Psycho!! a scene that many would consider one of the greatest scenes in Horror Movie history!
Yet I can type into Youtube the words gagged & bound and watch several videos of Women being bound & gagged without the age question being asked.
I can type into Google the name of a former E.R actress Kelly Martin and then can watch a short film showing violence’s, yes its a short film but I can walk into a video store and visit the adult section, I can go into a book shop or a library and find things that are unsuitable for adults.
I’m an oldie with a young stepgrandson who loves trawling the porn sites when everyone is asleep. We’ve sorted out how to stop him here and his parents now keep control at home – computer in full view and password changed when they go to bed.
Even tho I’m a ‘died in the wool’ Laborite, I am totally against the proposals for blocking.
I agree with MB – set up special force of IT people to work on it. My son has just come back from US seminar on new security stuff for his firm.
There must be heaps of IT bods out there who could find the stuff pretty quickly for the Govt. Also gives them employment. Set them up as part of the AFP or somesuch.
If the block comes on and my computer becomes slower I won’t be happy with Conroy – and if I’m not happy then how about the reaction from the NOT ‘died in the wools’.
Fulvio – I agree with your comments re Insiders. So many times I have heard the words I have read previously on PB. Wonder if the journos feel a trifle insecure when they read this site, Piping Shrike, LP, Politial Sword, Possum and the like.
I meant for Childern!
Well there is, there are about 5 people at the AFP who do this work day in day out. They are both I.T. geeks AND police officers. So they understand both the technological and legal aspects of the issue.
I suggest that that is a woefully inadequate enforcement regime given the seriousness of the problem. This is where we should direct a few million before wasting money on an internet filter that won’t work.
Well with regards the films, the 1995 act is not rigourously enforced, and never has been. Here are some examples:
1) It is quite easy to import Refused Classification (banned) DVDs from overseas, because customs a) doesn’t have capability to search every parcel b) doesn’t seem to keep an up to date list of what has and hasn’t been Refused Classification.
2) There are films on video in my university’s library that were once legal, but have since been Refused Classification. According to the 1995 act they should be immediately confiscated by the police because they are now banned. However, they sit there on the shelves, are available to university students (including 17 year old first years!), and are occasionally shown in classes on censorship.
3) It has always been easy for minors to see R18+ films at cinemas, and retailers generally don’t care about selling R18+ videos and DVDs to minors. I bought numerous R18+ films (Taxi Driver and Casino come to mind) on VHS when I was 17, and was never asked for I.D.
So the idea that our current classification regime for films is rigorously enforced is a joke.
Yes.
Do you honestly think ANYONE opposes pedophiles being brought to justice? (well other than pedophiles)? That simply isn’t the issue at all. It is how we go about enforcing laws, rather than pretending that this internet filter will work.
If the filter won’t work perfectly, then it is a waste of time and money that could be better spent on enforcement.
I asked last night, who would want the Stormfront white supremacist chat forum banned?
Will the government be banning this? Because I DO NOT think it should be banned, because banning such forums just makes the nutcase conspiracy theorists who frequent those forums MORE convinced that their is a government conspiracy out to get them, which just further fuels their nonsense beliefs.
Beemer’s comments seem to support my position.
BH says he is against blocking, then proposes a special task force to do blocking, so I don’t what his position actually is.
I already said I’m not talking about children.
For film and magazines it is done (generally) by married lawyers.
How married lawyers are inherently able to reflect “community standards” let alone determine “artistic standards” (which is now a requirement of the code!) I have no idea.
A film which is rated M15+
Yeah, like The Bible for example.
ShowsOn’s comments suggest he is opposed to censorship altogether. That’s a defensible position, but not one either I or the current government share. It also deals him out of a discussion about the principles on which internet censorship should be based.
It’s an exercise in futility. Even if the censorship plan had merit it would be impossible to achieve. It has no merit, is impossible, there is no demand for it and it will be far too expensive for what it does.
So Ltep, are you also opposed to censorship in principle, or are you arguing that it is technically impossible to censor the internet? (We keep getting these two debates mixed up.)
Where did I write this? Your posts in this thread are full of straw.
It is funny that you keep using the term “censorship”, because according the the Government, legal media is “classified”, it is not censored. That is why it is called the “Classification (publications, films and computer games) act 1995″ Not the censorship act
Censorship refers to the banning of illegal media. Unfortunately you keep confusing the two things.
We should all agree that things like child pornography should be illegal, because it is documentary evidence of criminal acts. But the question is how we enforce this, instead of lumping the issue together with the classification of the latest Hollywood film.
So you don’t ARGUE or explain WHY my position is flawed, you just claim it is flawed, then imply I should stop demonstrating why your position is nonsensical.
Same shit, different topic.
Adam’s comments suggest he thinks by default we should censor things. This deals him out of a discussion about the principles on which internet regulation in liberal democratic countries should be based.
It depends on what you mean by censorship and in what context. Censoring the internet is technically impossible, at least to the extent that it appears the Government is currently looking at.
I said “suggests”, not “proves.” If you tell me you are in fact in favour of certain kinds of censorship, fine. Then the debate is about how to enforce that censorship on the internet. What is your proposal?
Ltep’s position is that censoring the internet is technically impossible. As I said, I’m not qualified to have that debate. I can only say that some well-qualified people disagree.
Surely that should be the first and most important consideration. Is it possible? If not, the rest of irrelevant. I’m yet to see anything which demonstrates that it is possible without severely limiting internet speeds.
Adam!!
First off we seem to both agree that the Internet should be exposed to the same regulations that cover other forms of media.
When a Movie is released it needs to obtain a classification from a review board that has a member/s sit down and watch the program then in turn deciding on a classification.
My susgestion of hiring I.T people to monitor websites could act in the same manner as the classification board.
Instead the Government is placing a filter based on key words that will have two effects one to reduce the speed of the Internet, this may not bother people with high speed connections but what about low income earners with Dial up!
Further to that, the list of key words blocked by the filter is kept secret and up to the Minister to chose, as I pointed out key words can lead to many different sites and I’m not sure a filter will acheive the objective of the Government.
I used the example of bound & gagged in isolation these words could mean a number of things, I think the Government needs to come to grips with modern media, another way of looking at it.
If you have a video from BBC regarding violence in a war zone and it uses in its title words like troops raped villages, the filter will see the word raped and may well block it, yet I can watch the nightly news and the ABC might report the very same story using the very same BBC video.
Censorship of the internet and censorship of other media are two completely different kettle of fish. Other media controls content that may be viewed by all. With the internet, the individual is in control of the content he or she wishes to view.
Adults are adults, and adults should start taking responsibilty of not only what they view, but also what their children view.
I am with Shows On, Oz and ltep on this one.
People arguing that the internet should be censored the same way tv and movies are clearly have no understanding of the sheer speed of the internet, where thousands upon thousands of pages, words, images etc. are added ever second. It would be impossible to do it. Unless what is proposed is a whitelist, whereby we can only access websites that have been approved for viewing.
this endlessly repeated assertion that the internet, as our medium of choice, should for some reason be free of the restrictions that ordinary folk have to accept in their media of choice (TV etc
The British seem to be taking a different path. Apparently, they will be installing data recorders to log all upload traffic at ISPs. Presumably, this will not only limit the amount of suspect material originating from the UK, but may also detect logons to such material outside the country which could be used to prosecute criminal behaviour.
Not really a censorship tool because it, for example, won’t detect kids watching unsuitable though legal material and you’d have to wonder about the costs of processing all that data, but it’s an interesting concept.
I don’t know how such a system would be received here. The Poms don’t seem to be as concerned about privacy issues – all those CCTV cameras everywhere – as maybe we are.
Beemer, you may be right about the methods used. I understand that there are currently about 120 million websites, and that the number is still increasing exponentially. How many people sitting at screens would it take to monitor them all, every day of the year? China employs 30,000. I doubt Australia could match that.
Centre, I accept that some people are philosophically opposed to all censorship. I disagree, but I’m not here to have that argument today.
I think we should censor things that are illegal, because according to Australian law, that is what censorship now means. You are using the term inappropriately.
You don’t realise how screwed up our regulation of media actually is. Do you know that all films that feature actual sex are considered pornography UNLESS the classification review board considers it art? (even though in art history there is no agreed definition on what constitutes art)
This must mean you reply to my posts without actually reading them.
We should train and employ I.T. professionals who have the expertise and knowledge to enforce existing laws. Pedophiles pay hackers to teach them how to hide their activities; we need police who know all the hacker tricks. We don’t have enough people with that set of divergent skills (I.T. and law enforcement). If we spent the cost of the internet filter on this alone we could set up a huge cyber-crimes department within the AFP.
Also the government should mandate that EVERY computer sold in Australia come with internet filtering software on a CD or DVD so parents can install it if they want to.
I should point out this is the same system we have for tracking crimes by telephone. We don’t have a filter on the entire phone network that stops people from saying particular things. Instead we have a system where law enforcement can gain access to the phone network when they are suspicious of criminal activity.
Adam! I use to work in an ISP company and part of part of the job was to monitor client use!! no matter how many people you employed covering all bases is difficult, maybe the Government needs to have all websites registered and sites that don’t should be blocked, even then you then have to work out how to regulate the You Tubes & Googles.
I can see what the Government is trying to do and it is a worthwhile action on its part but it comes down to how do they do it.
Call this the China option.
Well what about the Stormfront forum? Should an internet filter block that out so Australians can’t access it?
That seemed to be what made you think I opposed classification (which you called censorship).
I say NO, because that will just convince them that their conspiracy theories are real.
But what does “enforce” mean, if not blocking illegal content on the internet? If someone in Belarus creates a website with instructions on carrying out terrorist acts (which is illegal under Australian law), what does the government do about it? It can’t close down the server in Belarus. It can pass a law forbidding people to look at the website, but so what? What practical alternative is there to blocking access to that website?
I am opposed to blocking political websites unless they contain actual incitement to criminal acts such as terrorism.
To show how diffult this is I will use an example.
I found a clients website that was titled “Anna Kournikova”
You would think its Tennis related!! instead it was wall to wall pictures of Anna Kournikova or her head placed on nude photos!
Adam, exactly how many people try and access terrorist related material from websites hosted in Belarus?
When I become DG of ASIO I will let you know.
Are these clowns for real?
so we now find out that 12 out of 29 of PM’s staff have left in the past year.
But 12 isn’t a headline grabber where 40% is.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/07/2439885.htm?section=australia
Find out WHO in Australia is uploading and downloading the content so you can put a face to the crimes.
This requires IT skills to untangle the anonymity that such criminals achieve by buying information from criminal hackers.
This is probably only against Australian law if the said webpage was uploaded to an Australian server. Australian laws aren’t designed to police things that happen in Europe.
Of course I would hope the AFP contact their Belarasian counterparts and inform them of the webpage. But this would require more I.T. skilled AFP staff, which is what I suggest we need.
Well this is different. Because if someone in Australia looks at the website, then they have downloaded that content. So – arguable – this would count as an Australian crime that could be policed.
Tracking what people upload and download – which is how child pornography is currently policed, and how occasionally the AFP successfully catches and prosecutes people.
Take a stab Adam, what percentage of Australian internet users will attempt to access terrorist websites? Can you name one? How would one go about finding one?
Funnily enough I have not seen one website telling me how to commit terrorist attacks. Yet there’s demand for the Government to block these websites through a mandatory filter why?
I deliberately chose Belarus because it is a country run by gangsters about which nothing can be done. A website emanating from a server in Belarus (or a number of other similarly corrupt countries) cannot be closed down. Nor does such a website needed to be mediated through an Australian server. I can access such a site directly from by PC. You are suggesting, I think, that nothing should be done about such a website until someone in Australia accesses it, and that then they should be prosecuted. First this requires that the ASIO or the AFP know of the website’s existence, and that they spend their days watching to see who accesses it. This might be regarded as entrapment – why not just block access to it? It also raises the problem of how many thousands of people will have to sit all day watching screens to find all these websites as they pop up.
First one would learn Arabic…
Are there laws against bad Photoshopping?
Who’s looking forward to the last episode of The Howard Years!?
I heard it is the last one is the best episode, but I won’t ruin the ending!
But people IN Australia who access that website would use their web browser to download its content to their computer, which IS a crime that the AFP can prosecute.
You just wrote:
So you are the one that suggested nothing can be done. I am suggesting that we can and should police people who access such websites. Stuff the internet filter, if someone wants to access the content they will figure out a way. They’ll contact someone in Belarus and get them to host the material on a hidden server somewhere else that has an IP that isn’t on the block list.
Well when Al Queda release new videos they sometimes post them on websites. I have searched and found some of them. Should those sites be illegal because they are hosting Al Queda rant videos?
What we hav here on th internet child porn issue is reely spammers…..laissez faire libertarian elitists tinking there University qualified evasive spam language actualy fools anyone about there true anti censorshop beliefs
Putting red herring arguments up about having cyber cops , better police training , big brother Govt is watching , th ’sinister’ secrecy of th banned sites , tech problems , saying get ASIO involved , saying problam with other Countrys , arguing th illegality of th material….. is ALL spam to avoid simply saying ….”I oppose people having th right to view intenet child porn in there own homes”
Even if some of these issues ar valid , what is deafening and incriminating of th laissez faire libertarian elitists is th NON statemetn of this above belief , a belief thou shall avoid fessing up to Such intelectual hypocracy
Of course yous FL intelegentsia elitists will do everything possible to AVOID actualy saying that…….”I oppose people having th right to view intenet child porn in there own homes” Why ? ….because yous know th majority would tink , either yous ar effectively condoning child porn or may actualy watch it or that you may hav extremist ‘individuals freedom beliefs’ & yous ar fearful of such extremeism beliefs being publicley exposed
So to th opponents of internet child porn th challenge is fess up on th above statement , so we actualy know who ar th disingenuous laissez faire libertarian elitists vs who actualy hav solely tech issues alone , or do yous still want to persue th charade of red herring to hide your secret extreme anti censorship beliefs …suspect th latter as usual
I would certainly not assume that a website about Anna Kournikova had anything to do with tennis.
So you think there’d be what? 80% of all Australian internet users are looking to access terrorism websites? In fact you must imagine that people can’t use the internet without falling over the hordes of child pornography and terrorist related material, it’s just that easy to find!
Otherwise, justify to me why it is the rest of the country should be happy to accept internet speeds of up to 87% slower and the blocking of tens of thousands of legitimate websites who end up getting over-blocked by filters. That is, the websites that contain no material that is meant to be restricted by the filter but accidentally trigger something in the software.
Well done Ron! As always, when in doubt, make stuff up!
Good comeback Adam!! especially if you were expecting to learn how to play!!
Ron!! I for one do not think anyone should be allowed to see Kiddy porn!! child abuse is one of the worst crimes anyone can commit, my point is what words will be filtered.
828 vera – Are we also to assume those 12 have not been replaced? If they have, what makes the opposition think these new people can’t do the job?
It sounds like you only oppose people who view child porn “in there own homes” and that has come from the internet.
I oppose people producing, possessing, or distributing child pornography ANYWHERE, be it sourced from the internet, or from anywhere else.
It sounds like you’re a libertarian elitist Ron.
More reports being published exposing the Greens Australia’s Senate election in Queensland. The Greens being hoodwinked out of a seat by a system that is not proportional. the only people supporting the current system is Antony Green, Adam carr and those who profit from the corrupt count. Looks like Queensland will be used as an example was to what is wrong with the Australian proportional count. for many years to come. Mean While those trying to prop up the stolen election continue to bury their head in denial.
Democrary@work!! I read earlier that you are or were an ALP member if so why are you concerned with the Greens not winning a seat!!
I would Imagine your party leadership will not lose sleep over it, the system is find as it is.
f the Greens want to make an offical complaint then they have had over a year to do so and have not done so.
Curious to see an ALP member (I assume you’re still a member?) trying to deprive a legally elected ALP Senator of his seat. You’re on very thin ice, Anthony.
My first post was not about technicalities but the scope of the policy.
1. Accept that the internet, whilst a form of media, is not the same as TV and radio and thus a different approach will have to be required.
2. Enhance existing systems including ACMA regulation. There isn’t really some huge issue with content on the internet anyway.
The idea that child porn and other violent and illegal things (Which are illegal all around the world) are prolific on the internet is ridiculous. You don’t find them just by stumbling on to them and children definitely don’t find them just by stumbling onto them. And using a filter to stop them won’t actually work. What will work is continuing to use the ACMA to find and target these websites and using the Federal police to liaise with international agencies, which they do, to track down the hosts and the users.
So the other thing with regulating the internet like movies and tv is that you’re saying that every website should be viewed and analysed by the Classification Board and then have a rating slapped on it. But that’s not how the internet works and that’s never going to succeed. And that’s why I think these things should be up to the discretion of parents and families. Some people (most, according to the Sex Party) want things like pornography, violent movies etc. online. Some families don’t think they’re appropriate. And if you think about, that’s similar to how it is with things in the “real world”. Porn and other things might be “X-rated” or “R-rated” but kids have been seeing them since before the internet. That’s where the guardians step in. The internet should not be regarded as this open window to everything and then it’s the government’s fault if my precious (horny) son watches porn. Make sure he doesn’t, or watch movies etc., if you don’t want him too by putting the computer in a public place, using a software internet filter, using a hardware internet filter or using the “opt-in” filtering system we currently have in Australia called Webshield.
Oh wow I didn’t realise I took that big a break, sorry for the extremely late reply.
I wonder when the next Newspoll will be released after the $10.4 billion stimulus package is credited into the bank accounts of those eligible? It could be seriously ugly!
Will Turnbull’s PPM figures fall below 20% to the same levels of Brenda? I think they may.
He also don’t realise that what Conroy is proposing is that only 1/10 of what is blocked would actually be “illegal” material.
Oz, thanks for that. The most sensible reply yet, except that I have said several times I am not discussing the protection of children. I am discussing restricting what adults view.
No, I think others were suggesting that, and I agree with you that it can’t be done. That, I presume, is why Conroy is going down the path of automatic filtering by the use of trigger words. I can see problems with that, too.
Instead of jumping to “terrorism” which we don’t will be blocked or not, and is an extremely far-flung example designed to wedge opponents of a mandatory filter, why not talk about websites about euthanasia and anorexia, which have been stated as going to be blocked.
can you provide a source for Conroy saying such sites will be blocked?
Actually, no.
That’s one way to do things but the trials previously, and the impending trials, are about a blacklist. Not real-time deep-packet inspection via the use of particular words. That may be a particular goal later on down the line but not at this stage according to the Department.
The problems with that is:
We don’t know what’s on the list.
We don’t know why they’re on the list.
They weren’t put on the list by the Classification Board, but by bureaucrats and politicians. Which means they don’t reflect community standards whatsoever.
It will lull the government, the community and possibly even the police, into a false sense of security. ie. “Well we have a filer that blocks out all the illegal and dangerous stuff, that means if I stumble across something it can’t be bad!”.
We’ve yet to be told what the punishment for bypassing the filter is.
The system of the kind suggested by the Department will unintentionally, but definitely, block thousands of other completely legitimate websites.
It will slow internet speeds, negating the Government’s $5 billion pledge to give us faster internet.
And finally, it will absolutely fail in preventing illegal or unclassified information being viewed. And as ltep said, that’s the most important question. Is this simply a misguided attempt to make the internet “safer”? Or a vote-buying and right-wing pandering exercise? The fact that it won’t achieve it’s outcomes and Conroy and the Department know that from their trials and the ISP industry, including Telstra, iiNet and Internode, and yet is still willing to press on and spend hundreds of millions of dollars shows it’s devolved into political face-saving at worst and vote-buying at best.
But how is this “blacklist” to be applied if not by (a) thousands of people inspecting every website, or (b) the use of automatic triggers?
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/21942/127/
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/News/128301,senator-conroy-expands-reach-of-net-filters-to-unwanted-content.aspx
Point (b) first, and this is where things get a bit technical. A blacklist can be updated “live” through trawling for keywords and the like, or, as is the plan detailed by the Department for the impending trials, a list of identifiers for particular websites, included IP addresses, domains and hosts* will be input into the system and then “blocked”.
Some of those websites come from the ACMA who finds are aware of them either via their own research, policing or by the community informing them. The others (majority) come from the Department and we have no idea where they’re getting them from. Possibly they are using keyword searches to develop the initial blacklist but it won’t be a rolling exercise once it’s in place.
*And again the issue with that is that dozens, even hundreds, of websites can be on the same domain.
Well, like it or not, euthenasia is illegal in Australia
Never underestimate the potential for pensioners to claim they are deprived and abandoned, especially if the government is Labor. What with the outbreak of rape, binge drunkenness, assault and buggery as a result of the latest stimulus, and other generally behaviour that would make Sodom and Gomorrah look like a vicar’s tea-party, expect the Silly Season to bring up all kinds of End Times predictions from the Coalition and their fans in the geriatric demographic.
We’re already seeing Rudd now being lambasted (sorry) for not allowing lamb on the menu of official dinners. Dutifully, the weary troglodytes of the Right un-cap their pens one last time before Christmas with comments such as this:
Expect any reaction from the cash injection. I doubt whether it will change one tiny mind, one tiny bit.
*** This post written to offer an alternative, any alternative, to the never-ending, inutterably stultifying, several-hundred posts long, interminable argument about internet censorship that always seems to crop up when the thread starts to wane.
Bushfires Law: “Forget Hitler: All threads eventually devole down to a pointless and completely subjective argument about internet censorship.”
There, I’ve managed to fulfill Godwin’s Law and usurp it in one sentence.
Conroy has already shown that the Big Brother filter will be used for whatever he feels like censoring without regard to legality. If it’s politically expedient, he will add betting, euthanasia, Liberal Party, National Party, Green, sites until the only content we see is what he wants us to see. It’s time Rudd sacked him (and Bidgood at the same time).
I’m getting pretty sick of this particular argument. If that is what it takes to block illegal material then so be it. Throwing the hands up in the air and saying it’s too hard is a cop out. With effort I’m sure we can improve the technology so any speed loss is reduced.
Yes euthanasia (or assisted suicide, which is a different thing) is illegal, but it remains legal to advocate that it should be legal. That is political free speech. I would be opposed to blocking a website that advocated the legalisation of assisted suicide, or indeed of anything, provided it did not *incite* or *facilitate* the commission of a crime.
Oz, thanks for those links and explanations. I see I will have to do some homework on the technical side of this matter.
So is murder. Woops, we’re talking about murder. Bye bye Pollbludger.
Are there any other countries where the Government can secretly block out legal internet sites
China, Russia probably, Iran, Iraq maybe. Welcome to Ruddistan.
Anyone see that Turnbull has offered Barnaby Joyce a promotion to the front bench?
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24763597-421,00.html
Tut, tut, BB, such cynicism. I know a Labor MP with a high proportion of oldies in his seat, and he says they have queuing up to tell him how wonderful Kevin’s Xmas Bonus is. I think it will have a political impact – not of course that Rudd had any political motives!
No worries, Adam.
I am not opposed to this on ideological grounds against classification/censorship, whatever you want to call it. Nor am I a Labor hater. I’ve taken an “evidence based” approach the whole issue. I have the evidence before and I’ve made a judgement. Once that information is given to others they too, in my experience make the same judgement as I.
I do not think that rational, sane people with all the facts in front of them can support the current policy.
Yes, and isn’t sites facilitating such crimes that are being talked about blocking?
Come and live in Tasmania and say that.
Adam
Have you helped your grandma pick out her “pensioner bonus” plasma screen yet?
I agree there are parts of it I’m not happy with, mainly having a ‘hidden’ list of banned sites. Other than that, I think it is good policy if implemented well.
Why would I want to go and live there?
I believe China, Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia are the only countries with mandatory filtering.
Alas both my grandmas are long departed. My mother, who is 82, already has one. She will spend her bonus on spoiling her grandkids, as always.
I hope she didn’t get raped carrying it home from the shop
Sorry, that comment above was in poor taste. I apologise.
To be honest, if “implemented well” (If that means it actually blocked anything, there weren’t tens of thousands of false positives and no speed slowdowns) I’d probably be more partial to it. But it’s impossible to do that.
We won’t know, will we? We know gambling, euthanasia and anorexia are on the “unwanted list” and if we trusted Conroy we’d think “Well it’s probably stuff promoting it”. A couple of issues. What defines “promotion” vs. “facilitation” vs. “discussion”? At best, bureaucrats in the Department or politicians. At worst, an automatic system that blocks anything with the word “euthanasia” in it.
Is the Christmas bonus going to be a cheque sent to each household or do you have to go somewhere with ID to get it?
mexicanbeemer
Posted Sunday, December 7, 2008 at 3:51 pm | Permalink
#839
“Ron I for one do not think anyone should be allowed to see Kiddy porn!”
Mexican Beemer , congratulations on an unambigous statement
You will ote others hear will not do so …they believe people hav th “right” to view chld porn in there homes if they wish to (quite exteme libertarian views
OZ , may I ask …do you believe people hav th “right” to view chld porn in there homes if they wish to
Bill Shorten evening up the score
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24763825-2702,00.html
Since the OFLC, in conjunction with the AFP, determines what constitutes illegal material, it is impossible to say that you aren’t simply concerned with what content is legal for ADULTS to view.
The same statutory organisation is responsible for both classifying and banning content.
He is referring to websites that encourage people – particularly adolescent girls – to diet to excess. He is also referring to occasions when websites have been used to arrange suicide pacts.
How can people have rights to do things that are illegal?
I hope that creep Nelson took on from the Chamber of Commerce was included in that lot.
Hendry wasn’t it?
I work in computers and I just don’t buy that. I’m certainly not saying it will be easy or that there will be no teething problems however (as there are with any computer/internet development).
Ron
Why use the straw man argument and label anyone who doesn’t want Conroy blocking whatever sites he feels like as someone who thinks kiddy porn is OK. If Conroy could block those sites without screwing up the internet and breaching our rights to free speech by blocking legal sites, we’d all be happy and think he’d done a great job.
The fact is that he cannot.
I’m pretty sure he is now working for a senior shadow minister. Maybe Abbott or someone like that.
Diogenes – there’s something different about you today
Diogenes
“Ron
Why use the straw man argument and label anyone who doesn’t want Conroy blocking whatever sites he feels like as someone who thinks kiddy porn is OK”
That is false I never said that Reread my #835 Don’t do a ShowsOn and do everything to avoid answering th issue
What I said is there ar extemist libertarians people here who use NUMEROUS red herring to avoid fessing up to there beilef …they believe people should be able to view chld porn in there homes if they wish to VS those that hav legit tech implementation queries
Which category do you fall into
William, can you start up a Googlers’ Island where those fixated with Conroy, internet censorship and porn can adjourn to?
Alright then, none of the proposed filter’s Conroy is going to use can do that.
No one on this website has ever stated such an opinion, nor do I think they hold it. Me included.
fulvio,they can go here:
http://politic.osm.net/2008/11/censorship-by-chrisb/#comments
Ron what little cred you have has just gone up in smoke
Did I read correctly that the filter will block the word euthanasia! I have just clicked onto my YouTube page and what pops up but a video from a news agency with the first word in the title is euthanasia.
*blows whistle* ENOUGH!
I’d rather read endless whinges about The Australian than this, and that’s saying something.
When is the next POLL for Chrissake?
Only 20 days until I go to China
I did answer the statement, if you cared to read all my other posts in this thread you wouldn’t post such dreck.
Who the hell are you talking about? Put up or shut up for once.
Of course not
Well, webpages that explain ways people can painlessly commit suicide are illegal, so one can presume that the filter will be designed to block them.
I’m with Adam!! We need a poll! even if it said the ALP are 55 v Libnats 45. we haven even spent this much time on the global economic crisis.
WTF!? Just saw another Howard year’s promo, with Abbott talking about “late night love”. I didn’t know he liked Howard THAT much.
Just visited the site you referred me to out of curiosity, Andrew.
The muster reads like a Pollbludgers reject shop!
Name me a country that doesn’t Dio…
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Pirate-Bay-Appeals-Ban-Decision-92342.shtml
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news/165513
And that’s just a couple of examples. I am an IT professional and I agree with Adam – we need some form of censorship – it is just the method that needs discussing and if my download speed suffers so that we don’t have illegal activities/sites available in this country so be it. I have also been involved in counselling adult victims of child sexual abuse and if you think your “freedom” or download speed is more important – you’re sick.
Tom.
Do you honestly think the system will stop all forms of Australian cyber-crime?
Name the posters who suggested this.
Don’t spread FUD. Out of those list, Russia and Iraq don’t have mandatory ISP level filtering.
Like I said, the few handfuls of country that do are limited to China, North Korea, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Perhaps one or two more.
Bloody hell Tony Jones pops up everywhere.
He does the intros on an ABC2 show called Fora.
As a matter of interest
why do the MSM still fall for the fibs “talking points”.
Are we in for this “phoney war” type journalism up to the next election-or are we witnessing the deathroes of “howardistas”
How so? Actually, I’ve had a pretty crappy day. Those PBs in SA will understand when they watch the news.
I get sick and tired of people who can’t win a rational argument, and so resort to calling people who disagree with them kiddie porn sympathisers. Absolutely no-one here has said kiddie porn shouldn’t be illegal, filtered out and anyone who watches it locked up. It’s a Howard tactic to trivialise any counterargument and say “Oh so you’re happy tp let paedophiles watch anything they!”
Rudd and the states (I’m not sure whose jurisdiction it is) don’t even bother to enforce the porn laws we already have. Last time I looked, XXX movies are banned (except on NT and Canberra). What do you think those hundreds on porns stores are full of? I, of course, have no first hand experience of the matter but I hear rumours.