Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth

Morgan: 59.5-40.5

The latest fortnightly Morgan face-to-face poll has not replicated the Newspoll bounce, but that’s cold comfort for the Coalition as they still trail 59.5-40.5, unchanged from last time. The Greens are up three points on the primary vote to 10.5 per cent. Labor’s primary vote is down from 50.5 per cent to 48.5 per cent and the Coalition is down from 35.5 per cent to 34.5 per cent.

We also have Newspoll’s latest quarterly aggregation of polling broken down by state and age group. The outstanding features is a picture of relative Labor weakness in New South Wales, consistent with the theme that the state government is damaging their brand there. Charts galore from Possum.

In other news, 65-year-old back-bencher Philip Ruddock has made the surprise announcement that he plans to run again in his blue-ribbon Sydney seat of Berowra. However, he seems in some danger of being blasted out by the state party’s vigorous Right faction, which did so much to contribute to the party’s success at the last election.

UPDATE: By popular demand, here’s a chart showing how Labor’s two-party vote has tracked across Newspoll, Morgan and Essential Research this year. I only have figures going back to June for Essential, and have generally only used every second poll for Morgan and Essential to keep the figures concurrent with Newspoll. Alternatively, you could just look at Possum’s chart dump, which includes ACNielsen.

923 Comments

  1. 1
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    no it doesn’t adam it tells you how many entries not how many people searched for it

  2. 2
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    yes and ruddock is a real asset. not! Is kroger going to get Kooyong?

  3. 3
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    However, he seems in some danger of being blasted out by the state party’s vigorous Right faction, who did so much to contribute to the party’s success at the last election.

    Gosh, a political opinion from William.

  4. 4
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Oh I see, Centaur. No, I don’t know how you do that.

  5. 5
    Socrates
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    Another virtually identical poll result. That starts making the MOW look pretty small. So it looks like disunity and constant negative sniping is a bad look after all…

  6. 6
    Socrates
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    I want to correct my comment on the possible Australian fallout of the US Senate resisting the American Auto industry bailout. It might be worse for GM here than I thought. it seems Pontiac is one of teh brands GM is looking to cut in any rationalisation. That is the brand under which some Holden models are sold in the US. That would hurt the local operations a lot with no export income. Without them Holden might not be viable on their current local model lineup. They are supposed to be working on new local models but all I can say is they better get cracking. If the whole US parent folded Holden here would need to look for a foreign buyer fast.

  7. 7
    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    I find the intro a bit odd. “failure to show the newspoll bounce”??? I would have thought 59.5/40.5 is exactly in line with the 59/41 Newspoll, and the fact the Morgan detected the bounce earlier is a function of the timing of the polls. The “failure to show a bounce” sounds like a Shanahanism to me!!

  8. 8
    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    sorry “not replicated” rather than “failure to show”

  9. 9
    Socrates
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    The state by state break-up is quite interesting. Its hard not to believe that there has been a spill-over from NSW state politics into the Federal result. As NSW State labor has slipped, so has the federal result.

    I can hardly blame the voters in NSW though. They have effectively been in a recession already for the past 12 months, when NSW economic and job growth has been zero to negative. If you took NSW out the national GDP figures would still be reasonable.

  10. 10
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    Well Soc’s

    Aussie & Asian stockmarkets have dropped like pile drivers in the last 35 mins or so on the news that the US Senate have failed to agree a rescue package.

    “Maybe” it is better for this to happen in our markets trading hours, but the screens are red as far as you can see.

    I saw this elsewhere this morning – ” how come Honda, Toyota and others aren’t included in the US Bail out? After all, they make cars in the US, and employ tens of thousands of American car workers. They’ve also been suffering from a downturn in demand; they’ve also been losing money for their head offices.

    If the Big Three (Losers) don’t survive, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda will still be buying parts – that will save at least some of the fictional 3 million jobs that ‘depend on the car industry’.

    Heaven knows what will happen to our car manufacturers. Being foreign subsidiaries hasn’t stopped Ford Australia & Holden from sticking out their tentacles for money from the Australian government; Toyota Australia likewise.”

  11. 11
    Socrates
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    So we see Morgan, Newspoll and Essential research all pretty close now. Does anyone know how usual it is for the results to be this similar? Does it mean anything?

  12. 12
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Andrew, bounce suggests a change in trajectory, and this is the same result as last time. Might be an idea to read my whole sentence.

  13. 13
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Andrew, if you left out the “Shanahanism” bit, you might have got away with it ….

  14. 14
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    Federally Labor is still in front of the coalition in NSW and they are killing the opposition in QLD. On those figures losses in NSW would be made up in Qld one would have thought but of course an election isn’t being held now is it?

  15. 15
    Socrates
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Dave

    Thanks I hadn’t been following the markets but that doesn’t surprise me. However old fashioned and badly run, a lot of businesses still rely on the US auto industry for their market. I find it pretty eggregiousthat they can find 700 billion to rescue a few thousand invest mbankers in wall Street who can screw up or possibly even commmit fraud, while the cant find 15 billion to maintain hundreds of thousands. you may eb right about the 3 million jobs being fictitious, but teh flow on effects would come close. GM now employ 100,000 in the US; 6500 in Australia as of 2007.

    My previous post wasn’t suggesting that all 3 (GM, Ford and Chrysler) will all go down though. Ford are in much better shape than GM, and Chrysler are mid-field.

    However the point of my post 6 was in some ways even more pessimistic for GM locally. Even if GM in the US are bailed out, if they plan to kill Pontiac in any rationalisation that will hurt GMH. They could be in trouble either way.

  16. 16
    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    William I did read the whole thing. I am saying the “bounce” was already in the previous Morgan, so I dont know why you would focus on that rather than the fact that the absolute numbers are similar, unless you were trying to put a negative spin on it

  17. 17
    zombie mao
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    seems the bailout was scrapped because the republicans wanted to cut wages.

    Charming.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/11/murky-future-for-auto-res_n_150148.html

  18. 18
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    I’ve done a chart comparing Newspoll, Morgan and Essential. Barring a few quirky individual polls, Morgan is generally three points better for Labor than Newspoll. Essential was consistently two points above Newspoll for a while there, but it’s become erratic lately. They were a bit coy when I asked them whether they’d changed their methodology. Their sudden unanimity around 59-41 is indeed very unusual – it shows up as a bounce in Newspoll and Essential which is, as I say, not replicated in Morgan.

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/files/2008/12/081212threepolls.jpg

  19. 19
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    zombie – thats why the repubs want GM Form etc to file chapter 11 – then the workers get right royally screwed – and the auto companies just leave the smoking mess and start over.

    charming indeed.

  20. 20
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    They voted for Obama though Dave lol!

  21. 21
    vera
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Gary @14
    Coalition in NSW has lost ground in primaries as well
    Coalition At election 40,1 now 38
    ALP At election 44.5 now 41

    And when it comes to 2PP ALP is up slightly since election(54.2 now 55)
    Which would mean they shouldn’t lose seats and need to rely on QLD
    http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/1201%20State%20&%20Dem%2012-12-08.pdf

  22. 22
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    Interesting you see humour in the coming pain a estimated 3 million workers.

  23. 23
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    William Bowe

    “The Greens are up three points (on Morgan) on the primary vote to 10.5 per cent, which was also not reflected in Newspoll.”

    But Newspoll already had Greens at 10% so wouldn’t expect Nrewspoll to take Greens to 13% It may be more that Morgon previously had Greens at 7.5% which thought was unrealistic too low (now corected to 10.5% with most offset reducing Labors primary 2%)

  24. 24
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    I live to give Dave :)

  25. 25
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Thanks Ron, I had a false recollection of this week’s Newspoll showing the Greens vote in single figures, so I’ve chopped that bit now.

  26. 26
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Essential this year has provided the lowest Coalition primary vote while Morgan face to face has consistently provided the highest ALP primary vote. On the TPP it’s all over the place with the pollsters.

    All the polls this year are in the top three charts – they’re messy but give the idea. They probably need some LOESS regression fits run through them.

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/chart-dump/

  27. 27
    Tom
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    Adam and Centaur – go to google trends (http://www.google.com/trends?q=diogenes). Interesting site if you are interested in search stats.

    Tom

  28. 28
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    The car company bailout in the US has collapsed. Unless Bush steps in ASAP, watch US markets on Friday and by extension, the ASX (on Monday), to tank big time

    :( :( ……….. glad my margin loan is topped off :-D

  29. 29
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    No more Ford or GM lol how stupid are the executives for running their businesses into the ground.

    Looks like this is something even the Messiah Obama cannot fix lol!

  30. 30
    zombie mao
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Obama aint in yet

    Neither is a slightly more friendly senate

  31. 31
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Then it is another reason for the left to demonize Bush i guess.

  32. 32
    MayoFeral
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Socrates @ 15 -

    Even if GM in the US are bailed out, if they plan to kill Pontiac in any rationalisation that will hurt GMH. They could be in trouble either way.

    As I understand it GM wanted the Commodore/Pontiac because it satisfied a need some have for a powerful rear wheel drive car. Presumably, if they wanted to continue catering for that segment GM would continue selling them as Chevys or whatever.

    That said, if GM goes belly-up then we can kiss Holden goodbye anyway. I can’t see anyone else wanting to buy the operation given the state of the international financial market unless Rudd is prepared to put big bucks into the mix. Plus, by world standards, Elizabeth is small beer. No doubt they could build a much bigger factory in China for the money and export the cars to both America and here for a fraction of the price.

  33. 33
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    Glen, for reasons I don’t fully understand (I’ve been trying to search out a net reference as to why today) the auto problems are only surfacing at GM and Chrysler. Now, it may have something to do with the fact that Ford is a majority owned family company, so while they trade on Wall Street, stocks owned by the public are < 50% of total available shares.

  34. 34
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    Then it is another reason for the left to demonize Bush i guess

    As if they need them…

  35. 35
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    So Juliem do you reckon Ford will survive?

  36. 36
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Editorial from the Detroit Free Press (suspect that they had this written ahead of time, it appeared mighty quick)

    A dreadful outcome for Detroit
    December 11, 2008

    “I dread looking at Wall Street,” U.S. Sen. Harry Reid said late Thursday night as he announced that the Senate could not reach agreement on a rescue plan for the auto industry.

    That may be nothing compared to the dread with which everyone in Michigan will be looking at each other today.

    Do General Motors and Chrysler have a Plan B? Can Ford really hang on, particularly if one or both of the others go into bankruptcy?

    Michigan knows the pain of hard times in the auto industry: the related businesses that go under, the stores and restaurants that die, the crushing load on the state budget, the families who abandon their homes and leave the state. It is incredible that anyone, even senators from Southern states that are home to the assembly lines of foreign car producers, could want to watch these hard times turn so much harder for so many people because of a domestic auto industry implosion.

    The final sticking point apparently was when — not whether — UAW workers would have the same wages for as the foreign automakers pay. That will seem like an incredibly minor dispute in the face of an industry collapse, and — in many people's eyes — an anchor to hang around organized labor for the rest of recorded history.

    Perhaps it won't come to that. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson could still devise a plan to extract short-term auto industry loans from the $700 billion bailout bill designed for the financial businesses. There may be other options that have not yet been proposed to tide the industry over until a new administration arrives. The Detroit companies may be able to limp along.

    But none of that will temper the fear rising today in Detroit, throughout Michigan and in the many other areas where the domestic auto industry is the economic mainstay.

    The Senate rejection appears rooted in the extraordinary assumptions that Congress can by legislation act as a bankruptcy judge or design the perfect car — so sexy, emission-free and cheap that every American will want one. Yet the final bill negotiated by the White House was, in fact, very much a form of bankruptcy lite. It would have caused plenty of pain here, if that was what Detroit's opponents were really seeking.

    Job loss numbers have grown substantially since the automakers first went to Washington looking for help. But far worse apparently is to come.

    “Don't 2.5 million people … deserve three months?” Michigan's Sen. Debbie Stabenow asked Thursday night in a last-minute plea for a vote.

    Tragically, the answer was no.

  37. 37
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    I wrote

    zombie - thats why the repubs want GM Form etc to file chapter 11 - then the workers get right royally screwed - and the auto companies just leave the smoking mess and start over.

    Glen wrote

    They voted for Obama though Dave lol !

    Thats an interesting template to apply when fib voters complain in future.

    Rest assured i will treasure reminding you of such. :) :) :)

  38. 38
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Glen, your comment #29 is a new low.

  39. 39
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Fulvio if you cant take a joke that’s sad, of course not all of them voted for Obama lol maybe 2 voted Republican…

  40. 40
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    21 – Vera, you make a very good point. Given that Labor is doing so poorly in NSW you would have thought the coalition federally would be making up ground there, not going backwards so this is not a real bad result for federal Labor in NSW, not as good as it could be but not as bad as one might expect either.

  41. 41
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    A whole series of “jokes” taking delight in others misery.

    Way out of line. Why am i not surprised.

  42. 42
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    The fibs is the bastion of the selfish. It won’t affect glen so why should it really matter. his family don’t work there. Besides he probably owns a Honda

  43. 43
    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Possum the figures might be a bit all over the place, but I can handle an “all over the place” 2PP for Labor between 54 and 65 without too much trouble!! And the year-end covergence at 59 is a nice Christmas present indeed!

    Thanks William for the charts

  44. 44
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Dave you take delight in the Liberals misery daily and that of George W Bush….

  45. 45
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Mitsubishi Cenataur…but my next car will be a Honda.

    Look i can empathise with these people but perhaps the downfall of those companies will spark new ones that are profitable and gives them employment…ie more fuel efficient cars ect.

  46. 46
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    William Bowe

    “Thanks Ron, I had a false recollection of this week’s Newspoll showing the Greens vote in single figures, so I’ve chopped that bit now.”

    Actualy William , Essential hav Greens at 7% so thats what you may hav been tinking of …although feel that low Greens figure will move up

  47. 47
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Glen you are pluming new lows your comments taking delight on the coming suffering of an estimated 3 million people.

    Thats a disgrace.

  48. 48
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    they could probably name cars after political parties.
    the labor- fuel eficient 4 cylinder/injected ute, hard working reliable, and all terain
    The liberal- 8 cylinder inefficient imported rubish. Unreliable can only drive in city, requires over seas parts and can only be serviced by Liberal dealer
    The Green- biodegradable 2 cylinder hybrid
    The National- a tractor

  49. 49
    kakuru
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    From a purely political pespective, I’m surprised the Republicans didn’t support the auto bailout. What if the Big Three auto makers do go bankrupt on Bush’s watch? He’s a Republican president. Bush presided over a credit crunch, a market crash, a deep recession, and now there’s the possibility of the collapse of the US auto industry, in the country that invented the automobile. Bush can be painted by the Dems as the Herbert Hoover of the 21st century. Bush’s presidency will poison the Republican brand the same way Hoover and the Great Depression did.

  50. 50
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    If they were 3million Australian workers i wouldnt be taking delight i can guarantee you that…

  51. 51
    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Is it possible to keep these threads for Aus politics?? There are other places to discuss US politics if you so desire. Makes the discussion here very disjointed

  52. 52
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

    yes time to put the walls up around australia again. quick i can hear those jobless mexicans coming

  53. 53
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    If the US car industry collapses that will have a profound effect on Australian politics.

  54. 54
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    glen wrote

    If they were 3million Australian workers i wouldnt be taking delight i can guarantee you that…

    why would anyone take ANY delight of ANY worker – let alone 3 million workers losing their jobs ?

  55. 55
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Any news on the coalitions meeting.Is Barnaby the new leader of the opposition? Fiona Nash was easy on the eye. how dare they shelve her

  56. 56
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    Nash has considerable talent. They won’t be able to bench her for long.

  57. 57
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Centaur009!! (footsteps)

    Adam is right this is big news for Australian politics for there are several suburbs in Melbourne and Adelaide that could be hit very hard by this but there is a bit of DeJa Vu happening for we saw the House block the first moves to bail-out the banks then the market took a pounding only to have a new plan that was passed.

    I think the same will happen here! I’m sure the Republicans will not want to be seen as the wreckers of three million jobs and the deth of American icons like GM

  58. 58
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    What does it matter to me?? The economy is already ruined in the short term ive already lost thousands with my shares so what’s some more short term pain for me?

    I guess Rudd will be putting more money into our Auto Industry….but eventually Rudd is going to run out of money soon enough.

  59. 59
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Dave, I don’t think Glen had thought through the interpretation that you and I have given his comment. I’ll be charitable enough to leave it at that.

  60. 60
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Centaur…Fiona is a looker but she’s got more talent than Barnaby, she was only elected in 2004 i think. Agree with you on that one, why demote her and not have any consequences for Barnaby or Top End Nigel??

  61. 61
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    It’s all about Glen. maybe there should be the Glen factor to consider when making desicions.Will it affect Glen? No , then we should be Ok.
    Typical self centered conservative sentiment. me myself and I

  62. 62
    MayoFeral
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Scientific proof that Democrats are smarter than Republicans (and by extension, Labor voters have higher IQs than Libs ;) ).

    http://www.slate.com/id/2206512?nav=wp

  63. 63
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Glen!! Everything that is wrong with the Right of politics can be summed up by you attempting a joke! up to 1-10 American jobs could be impacted for that is how many people are employed in relation to the car Industry.

    I’m tipping on open Wall St to drop by 700-1000 points to finish with a drop of 300!!

  64. 64
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    I’m curious what is the payrate of an American car maker vs that of a Japanese car maker

  65. 65
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Why am i castigated when i had nothing to do with the demise of their Auto Industry?

    If it means anything to you i think the executives of GM et al should be in jail for gross mismanagment and their assets given to staff in redundencies….

  66. 66
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    As someone said, not all conservatives are stupid but all stupid people are conservatives.

  67. 67
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    Possibly jumped th horse over th cart with auto in ‘oz’ All is not lost in Detroit , its Russian roulette , Big car ar uncompetitive & obsolete plant with big short & long wage liabilities and Chapter 11 fixes that (if Govt giv bailout to retool) Also both Partys Agenda’s ar both diferent , but Senate doesn’t vote on party lines so its not over

    But may add , these Big car CEO’s lobbed up to congress wanting 25 billion plus 15 biollion handout…what do they turn in , there own private planes…like turning up to a homeless kitchen in a tux , driving a lambergini

  68. 68
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    Glen!! I was not castigating you!! I was simplly unimpressed with you saying that you were making a joke!! I have been here long enough to know that you can be sensible and we have agreed on a great number of issues and I’m the first to admit to being sarastic & cheecky at times!!

  69. 69
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Duly Noted.

  70. 70
    Inner Westie
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Adam, is Stephen Conroy a conservative? If not, your proposition is false!

  71. 71
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    LOL sick burn Westie!

    Also what about Bidgood??

  72. 72
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Conroy is not stupid , he has simply handled a worthwile internet censoring proposal with some foolish comments

    Glen re Bitgood , yes I agree

  73. 73
    Cuppa
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Adam at number 66,

    The quote was by John Stuart Mill:

    "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives."

  74. 74
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    “The trouble with the Labor Party is that they don’t really believe in Socialism, but they cannot wholeheartedly approve of private enterprise either.”

    Joseph Grimond

  75. 75
    Cuppa
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:15 pm | Permalink

    Glen, that at least makes them somewhat balanced and centrist, as opposed to the radical conservatives, no pretence at being balanced or moderate, who call themselves “Liberal”.

  76. 76
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    There are two kinds of fools: one says, “This is old, therefore it is good”; the other says, “This is new, therefore it is better.”

    William Ralph Inge

  77. 77
    Cuppa
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Take Eric Abetz, for example. He was described by Jack The Insider as “arguably the most right-wing politician in the country”.

    http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/jacktheinsider/index.php/theaustralian/comments/turnbull_losing_battle_for_the_centre/

    By what definition is this extremist a “Liberal” – except by party name?

  78. 78
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Is it possible to keep these threads for Aus politics?? There are other places to discuss US politics if you so desire.

    Amigo Ronnie, is this my parrot escaping from the G Island?

  79. 79
    Aristotle
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Fellow bludgers, I think the reporting on today’s state by state polling in the Oz indicated that NSW was a problem for the ALP and could result in the Rudd Government being a ‘oncer’!

    Well it’s partly right, NSW is flat, but QLD, WA and SA are very rewarding for the ALP.

    I’ve posted a year end summary here for those interested parties.

    http://www.ozforums.com.au/viewtopic.php?id=4513

  80. 80
    Inner Westie
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    “worthwile internet censoring proposal”

    Worthwhile for whom? The Exclusive Brethren? (Who claim not to use the internet anyway.)

    Actually, Dumb’s Dumber, Bidgood, would no doubt think it’s worthwhile too!

  81. 81
    MayoFeral
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Fellow bludgers, I think the reporting on today’s state by state polling in the Oz indicated that NSW was a problem for the ALP and could result in the Rudd Government being a ‘oncer’!

    Nah, if necessary we’ll chuck NSW out of the Commonwealth and flog it to the Kiwis. Half of New Zealand is already living at Bondi I’m told.

  82. 82
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    Peter Hartcher is worth a read.
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/peter-hartcher/peter-hartcher/2008/12/11/1228585020479.html

    America's next top model: us
    Australia has improved its performance tremendously in the past couple of decades. Hawke and Keating pushed a reluctant country into the modern era of competitive markets; Howard and Costello continued pushing. Together, Labor and Liberal governments gave Australia a 17-year boom. Unemployment went from 10 per cent to 4, lower than US unemployment

  83. 83
    Inner Westie
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    Considering that both Eric Abetz and Petro Georgiou wear their glasses low on their noses, this can be ruled out as a measure of conservativeness.

  84. 84
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:34 pm | Permalink
    Is it possible to keep these threads for Aus politics?? There are other places to discuss US politics if you so desire. Makes the discussion here very disjointed

    Begging your pardon Andrew but the only time William has ever had a dedicated US thread that I am aware of was for the US elections which are now technically over. Unless something has been posted to the contrary in the last 3 hours, don’t think it is going to happen for you …….

  85. 85
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Glen @ 35, I’ve no idea in the long term. In the short term, they are probably better off because they can draw upon family money to help out. However, they are in the same boat as everyone else with the decline in the value of their portfolios so it won’t last indefinitely ………

  86. 86
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    OK, now I have the FINAL episode of The Howard Years on my iPod.

    It is the only episode needed.

  87. 87
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    was for the US elections which are now technically over.

    What about the Minnesota recount! I’ve been biting my nails for the last month!

  88. 88
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    Fulvio @ 38, Glen speaks the truth. I know he and I agreeing on anything makes for very strange bedfellows but none the less …. I grew up in Michigan and I know it from living it. My dad spent 30 years in the automotive industry as well so I know it up close and personal.

    The only thing that Glen glosses over is that the “executives” are a lot more then the current crop of CEO’s. There are multiple incarnations over the years and because they had to deal with heads of the employees unions across the table and still run their businesses, concessions had to be made in contract talks over the years. There is blame on both sides, management and employees and there is plenty of blame to go around. Kind of like peeling multiple layers off of an onion ……..

  89. 89
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    JulieM,

    Andrew is a known troublemaker. Always happy to instruct people on what to think or say.

    Finns has him teed perfectly.

  90. 90
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Glen @ 65,

    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 4:53 pm | Permalink
    Why am i castigated when i had nothing to do with the demise of their Auto Industry?

    If it means anything to you i think the executives of GM et al should be in jail for gross mismanagment and their assets given to staff in redundencies….

    Glen, as noted in a post just a bit ago, I’m WITH you tonight. Weird, eh? The car industry falls apart and we get a greens leaning labor voter siding with a rusted on lib ;-) …… It makes a HUGE difference, I will tell you, having lived it for years and years. I can see exactly where you are coming from. The ONLY regret I have is that it will deeply affect my parents as dad is a GM retiree and they are both 73 ……. I hope that Bush gives them some money and/or GM at least (don’t have a personal stake in the other two companies) can hold out until Obama is sworn in. Geez, am I going to miss being out of touch with news between 15th of January and Australia Day ….. going to live or die on the top of the hour news updates from the ABC as we move cross country …..

  91. 91
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    Showson,

    Minnesota isn’t enough to merit its own thread ;-) …. I’m waiting on that one too but much more interested actually on the brewing cesspool in the Illinois state house :-D

  92. 92
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Mayo,

    You got to admire Shanahan. He picks the only stat in the whole poll that is negative to Rudd and Labor and promotes it to the top of the batting order.

    How many elections have there been when we are told that the voters differentiate between Federal, State and Council elections? Yet we are now told that NSW Labor is a burden on Federal Labor. Oh, come now.

    “The hills are alive with the sounds of bullsh*t”.

  93. 93
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    juliem

    I have seen reports that the asian auto makers with plants in the US, pay (in an overall package sense) “about” the same wages as the US auto companies. The “story” being they did this so that their workplaces didn’t become unionised.

    The bid difference from what I have seen is legacy costs – the US auto companies have MANY MANY retirees on their books, ie people who toiled loyally on agreed packages and retirement benefits which have already been so called “re-negotiated” DOWN on several ocassions already.

    Other media reports convey a totally different impression, almost to the point that the workers are the major problem and enjoy huge wages – akimbo wall street style ??

  94. 94
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    An appropriate picture given the news ….. watch Wall Street tank tomorrow :(

    http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/53322/thumbs/s-JUNKYARD-large.jpg

  95. 95
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Dave @ 93,

    The bid difference from what I have seen is legacy costs - the US auto companies have MANY MANY retirees on their books, ie people who toiled loyally on agreed packages and retirement benefits which have already been so called “re-negotiated” DOWN on several ocassions already.

    That is exactly right …. things might have changed marginally over the years as you note near the end of what I snipped above but failing bankruptcy, there is no other legal way for them to avoid those costs …. that is why I fear what might be around the corner as it personally affects my parents …..

  96. 96
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    juliem

    charming indeed – screw the worker yet again. Really sucks.

    We are not seeing much here in australia, but presumably people in the US are screaming for blood. Convictions for the wall street stuff etc.

    Media is very quite about what action is being taken against the shysters.

  97. 97
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Jesus, watching Question Time has really lowered your guys’ standards.

    In what universe is Fiona Nash a “looker”? Not in this one.

  98. 98
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    The foresight of Hawke and Keating to introduce individual super for all and the existence of universal health care under Medicare. Neither perfect, but at least Australian workers have some surety in the basics.

    We rock!

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/peter-hartcher/peter-hartcher/2008/12/11/1228585020479.html

  99. 99
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull is really looking like a fool with Kerry.

  100. 100
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Red Kerry is ripping Allbull apart right now

  101. 101
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    Gee Red Kerry’s giving Turnbull a tough time… Malcolm floundering quite a bit on the deficit/recession thing

  102. 102
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    We are about to see a transformation of quite historic proportions – the US is about to become a social democracy, abandoning 200 years of rugged individualism. Even FDR couldn’t quite achieve this, but Obama will, partly by design and partly because he will have no choice. Universal health cover, de facto nationalisation of the banks and the car industry, expansion of state supervision of the economy, state mandated energy reforms to reduce carbon-dependence – all this will transform the US economy and thus US society and politics. Everything the Republican Party has stood for for the past century and more is being trashed before our eyes. As Ronald Reagan said, though not in this context: It’s morning in America!

  103. 103
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:56 pm | Permalink

    That said, if GM goes belly-up then we can kiss Holden goodbye anyway. I can’t see anyone else wanting to buy the operation given the state of the international financial market unless Rudd is prepared to put big bucks into the mix.

    A very good friend of mine is pretty well connected at Holden and works at a high level… hears lots of comments from big execs and drafts their reports, letters and so on.

    The word is that Holden will go under in less than two weeks if the bailout in the USA does not proceed. The local arm is “joined at the hip” to the parent company and the parent company will rip the guts out of their subsidiary to tip the loot into surviving another few weeks, if that’s what it takes.

    Decision day is just before Christmas. Hold onto your hats. We could be in for a Big One.

  104. 104
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    BB,

    Makes you think that Rudd and Co are trying despeately to stay in front of the curve with today’s industry announcements.

    Painful times ahead.

  105. 105
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Here’s Ron Paul bewailing the death of conservative America.
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video_log/2008/12/house_debates_auto_aid_bill.html

  106. 106
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    Makes you think that Rudd and Co are trying despeately to stay in front of the curve with today’s industry announcements.

    I thought it was good!

    I like it when Governments spend money on train tracks (but not trains).

  107. 107
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Oz wrote ;

    Jesus, watching Question Time has really lowered your guys’ standards.

    In what universe is Fiona Nash a “looker”? Not in this one.

    Haha I laughed at the original comments and let them go through to the keeper

  108. 108
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Red Kerry would never question Rudd like that…Turnbull looked woeful…i guess all he needed to say was that i wouldn’t go into a deficit unless i absolutely had to and not doing so would make the situation worse or i would try not to and try to avoid a recession.

  109. 109
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Painful times ahead.

    GG, No such thing. It will good for the soul, especially the Y-Gen. It’s about time they learn to be completely on their own, with no direction home, like a rolling stone. Things also look very painful on the G Island.

  110. 110
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    Lighten up Dave/Oz, Fiona Nash puts Kate Lundy to shame.

    BTW dave i wasnt the first to mention comments about her appearance…just so you know i was provoked.

  111. 111
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    Glen, how does it feel like to be completely on your own, with no direction home, like a rolling stone, among the carrion crows here at PB.

  112. 112
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Finns,

    Disagree. Many Australians have been protected from the the coming tsunami to date. My feel is there will be a lot of Companies who survive to Xmas and then bid adieu to many in their work force. It may sound cruel. But, how cruel to let people go on annual holidays without a job when they return.

    BB describes Holden, an Austalian icon. How many others are there waiting to fall?

  113. 113
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Like it has since i found pollbludger…doing my part, putting up an alternative point of view…

  114. 114
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Oh come on Glen, Kerry hammers politicians from all sides.

    Turnbull simply had no clue what he was talking about.

    Kerry asked: So do you support the stimulus package?

    Turnbull: I don’t think it matters.

  115. 115
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    108 said

    Red Kerry would never question Rudd like that

    What utter garbage ! Have a look at last nights transcripts.

    Turnbull looked woeful

    Of course he did. He is all piss and wind and the smart mouth lawyer act has severe limitations against anyone even a smiggen brighter than fran kelly.

    allbull ….. was given amble chance to criticise the governments policy and approach.

    Then he was surprised, wrong footed and was most certainly totally unprepared and unable to answer what HE would do. What HIS policy would be ? He was asked multiple times what HE would do.

    He twisted like corpse on the end of a rope and still he did not, could not answer what he would do – even though he spent the initial part of the interview rebuffing what was being done by the government.

    If allbull is the best, the brightest the fibs can offer, god help them all.

    allbull is a DUD !!!

  116. 116
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Scoring points off Glen is a fairly trivial exercise when we look at the scale of the crisis, the double crisis, the world is facing at the moment. This is one of the great turning points of modern history. Responding effectively to climate change and the GFC simultaneously is going to put activist government back in the saddle in all western countries in a way we haven’t seen since World War II. That’s why Rudd, Brown and Obama are riding the political wave of the future while the conservatives (to mix my metaphors) are going down the toilet.

  117. 117
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Responding effectively to climate change and the GFC simultaneously is going to put activist government back in the saddle in all western countries in a way we haven’t seen since World War II.

    So do you think Brown will win in 2010?

  118. 118
    polyquats
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Gee Red Kerry’s giving Turnbull a tough time

    Gee you guys should put spoiler alerts on these posts, for those of us that haven’t got there yet.

  119. 119
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    GG, I was retrenched when the word “retrench” was not even in the dictionary and carried certain negative stigma. The funny thing was that I did better after each retrenchment.

    In the end I retrenched myself, and the funny thing is, again, I am doing better and better. Bring in on.

  120. 120
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    The Tories are only 4 points up now and Brown is miles ahead on the “who is best to deal with the GFC?” question. You’s have to suppose he’ll call an election in the northern summer (”give me a mandate to work with Obama and Kevin Rudd to save the world”), and win it.

  121. 121
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    That isn’t necessarily, Polyquats – as someone who sees these interviews two hours later than everyone else, I can say that they never bear the slightest resemblance to the way they’re described.

  122. 122
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    William,

    Please post your reaction to the Dud-Bull interview in due course.

  123. 123
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    William, Please post your reaction to the Dud-Bull interview in due course.

    Yes please, William. Thanking you in great anticipation and excitement.

  124. 124
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Finns,

    You are probably young, educated, handsome and have the gift of the gab.

    Unfortunately, the people about to be screwed over in the GFC are middleaged, with limited education, kids and an excessive mortgage to support and with English as a second language.

    God help the over fifties and imperfect.

  125. 125
    dave
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    Just when you dispair about our yank friends along comes this :

    Former US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other top administration officials are responsible for abuse of detainees in US custody, a bipartisan Senate report says

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rumsfeld-responsible-for-abuse-report/2008/12/12/1228585104472.html

    Almost a duh moment – did they really think they could blame privates or corporals foe ever

  126. 126
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    116,

    while the conservatives (to mix my metaphors) are going down the toilet.

    Canada is only marking time, it will eventually get on the bandwagon as well :-D

  127. 127
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    GG,

    young, educated, handsome and have the gift of the gab

    That is exactly what I was referring to – the Y-Gen.

    not the people you have just described.

    middleaged, with limited education, kids and an excessive mortgage to support and with English as a second language.

  128. 128
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    What about NZ???

    They voted in the Tories during the GLC???

    Harper will stay alive, Iggy is more likely to deal with the Tories than the NDP/Bloc…

    Cameron will smash Brown, anybody who thinks they’ve saved the world isnt concerned with bread and butter issues at home.

    Also we’ve got Germany and Italy and France all with Conservatives in power

    Mind you the LDP in Japan is probably going down.

  129. 129
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    Cameron will smash Brown, anybody who thinks they’ve saved the world isnt concerned with bread and butter issues at home.

    I thought the Tory’s inability to understand what Brown has achieved demonstrates how out of touch THEY are.

  130. 130
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    The Tories have consistently been ahead of Labor…Brown is a lame duck…even the Germans are criticising his economic policies…

  131. 131
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    Glen

    Australia too! Rudd is a fiscal conservative.

    What does it mean to be a conservative?

  132. 132
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    WASHINGTON — The Senate on Thursday night abandoned efforts to fashion a government rescue of the American automobile industry, as Senate Republicans refused to support a bill endorsed by the White House and Congressional Democrats.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/business/13auto.html?hp

    This afternoon Reid was saying they were going to keep negotiating, right?

  133. 133
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    What about NZ???

    They voted in the Tories during the GLC???

    Key ran on Labour policies anyway.

  134. 134
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    This afternoon Reid was saying they were going to keep negotiating, right?

    It’s the same as usual, the Republicans can’t handle that auto workers are heavily unionised.

  135. 135
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    They’re New Zealanders! Enough said.

    If there was one group of people around the world who would be silly enough to throw out a respected incumbent with good policies during a time of global financial instability and replace her with a populist and opportunistic merchant banker it would be New Zealanders.

  136. 136
    The Finnigans
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Shot Tyler's 'nationalist' MySpace page - "This is about how we walk down the main street in any town, or city in Australia and see more foreign flags than we do Aussie, hear more foreign languages than we do English, in all honesty it's about the fact that we as true Australians are becoming the minority in OUR own country! it reads. And it's time we band together and made a stand

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/shot-tylers-nationalist-myspace-page/2008/12/12/1228585102348.html

    Now, would it be too insensitive to say good riddance? Yes, it would, my apology. No, it wouldn’t.

  137. 137
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    Not economic policies ShowsOn…

    Also Harper’s Tories won a strengthened minority and the Left got smashed in Canada’s recent elections…

    You had better be worried because if you go too far in centralisation with Global Warming and the GFL….We (Tories) Will Bury You…in good time… :)

  138. 138
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    It’s the same as usual, the Republicans can’t handle that auto workers are heavily unionised.

    Read an article today that pointed out that the “Big 3″ have donated $100 million to the Republican Party and $30 million to the Democrats.

    Guess that investment didn’t play out so well.

  139. 139
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Another example of gross mismanagement wouldnt you say Oz?

  140. 140
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    Sarkozy is behaving like a social democrat – don’t forget the Gaullists have never accepted Anglo-Saxon conservatism. Merkel is dragging her feet and is getting a terrible press as a result. I don’t know how well placed the SDP is to beat her but they must be given a chance. Berlusconi isn’t a conservative, he’s a semi-fascist clown and gangster. If France, Britain, Germany and Spain are agreed, Italy will have to go along. The key is persuading Merkel to get with the new zeitgeist.

  141. 141
    ShowsOn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    Not economic policies ShowsOn…

    Oh let me guess, he proposed tax cuts!

    The universal solution to any problem for your side of politics.

    Also Harper’s Tories won a strengthened minority

    Strengthened minority –> Oxymoron

  142. 142
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    and the Left got smashed in Canada’s recent elections…

    A majority of Canadians voting for the three left parties is “getting smashed”?

  143. 143
    evan14
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    I wouldn’t be shocked if the next U.K election gives us a Labor/Liberal Democrat Coalition Government.
    And I agree: Turnball was woeful tonight, really inept! I doubt he’ll be leader in 6 months time!

  144. 144
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    The key is persuading Merkel to get with the new zeitgeist.

    Dunno how that will work out.

    Her foreign minister took the rather unprecedented step of openly criticising Brown’s domestic economic policy.

  145. 145
    polyquats
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    as someone who sees these interviews two hours later than everyone else, I can say that they never bear the slightest resemblance to the way they’re described.

    That was certainly true about this one, William.

  146. 146
    evan14
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    Glen: You obviously supported Stephen Harper shutting down parliament, so he could avoid the opposition parties overthrowing his government. But of course the conservatives are past masters at subverting democracy.

  147. 147
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    Any deal with GM has to revolve around their pension gurantees and protection of worker entitlements.

    Then like in the 30’s the Fed will say we will save you but you have to start manufacturing different things like rockets to Mars, matter transformers and the like.

  148. 148
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    Oz the Liberal Party won 77 seats…recieved their lowest vote in Canadian Political History…26.26% down almost a million votes from 2006.

    Do you call that result the people of Canada wanting the Left???

    The NDP barely improved on last time with 18.18%…and just 37 seats…

    The Tories won 143 seats with 37.65%….

  149. 149
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    I think that both Canada and the United Kingdom are moving in the direction of proportional representation to the probable usual disadvantage of the conservatives in both places.

  150. 150
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Proportional representation is a crock and it wouldnt fly…Canadians in BC voted against proportional representation and First Past the Post (the only democratic method of voting) is well entrenched…

  151. 151
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Glen, my previous post still stands. You said “the left got smashed”. They received a majority of the vote.

  152. 152
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    The result in BC was 58% FOR BC-STV. The referendum only failed because of the excessively high 60% pass requirement rate.

  153. 153
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    They didnt stand as one party if they had they may have won they didnt so they lost.

    Harper would have had a majority had it not been for the Bloc.

  154. 154
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    BC are voting again next year on BC-STV.

  155. 155
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    Good luck to them.

    Proportional Representation for lower houses of Parliament create unstable Government…if you dont believe me look at Holland and Belgium!

  156. 156
    Tom
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    as someone who sees these interviews two hours later than everyone else, I can say that they never bear the slightest resemblance to the way they’re described.

    That was certainly true about this one, William.

    Got to agree – looked like a fish on the end of a spear.

    Tom.

  157. 157
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Glen you may as well as well say “Harper would have had a majority had it not been for the Liberals and NDP”.

  158. 158
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    http://www.fionanash.com.au I didn’t say model, I said easy on the eye. She has the classic Aussie chick look, big teeth, gums, frekly, rides horses and is probably a libra.
    Kate Lundy is on par. Kate Ellis tops them all, but I really liked Mia Handshin who missed out.

  159. 159
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    The Bloc are over represented because of the first past the post system.
    http://www.fairvote.ca/files/news%20release%20-%20october%2015%202008%20-%20election%20results.pdf

  160. 160
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    Kate Ellis is overated.

  161. 161
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    Proportional Representation for lower houses of Parliament create unstable Government…if you dont believe me look at Holland and Belgium!

    Why do we have to through this every single time?

    Correlation does not imply causation. You can’t look at the situation in Belgium, pick one variable and then say “It’s because of this!!!!”.

    If you care so much about “stable government” to fix Belgium then you may as well chuck in an absolute monarchy.

    “Stable government” at the expense of proper democratic representation is a very nanny-ish way of looking at things.

  162. 162
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    but I really liked Mia Handshin who missed out.

    Same with Nicole Cornes =(

  163. 163
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Oi! Why was 7:30 Report on tonight???

    Was it the last show for the year? Bugger, I missed it… oh well I’ll just have to wait for the net… At first I thought, don’t tell me it’s still Thursday!

  164. 164
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    And Hajnal Ban.

  165. 165
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    Maa Handshin now advises Ellis (on youth affairsI think)

  166. 166
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Grog, it’ll be on next week but Kerry’s gone on holidays.

  167. 167
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Cheers Oz, but why the Friday show? (not that I was hanging out for Stateline…)

  168. 168
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    The problem in Belgium is that there are two different linguistic groups of roughly the same size who`s representative parties (most to all parties are split along linguistic lines) have trouble cooperating in Parliament. Because they are in quite geographically distinct areas single member electorates would not help. Single member electorates help geographically dense parties (the Nationals and the Bloc) over parties of larger size with a more spread base (the Greens and the NDP).

  169. 169
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    What about Norway?
    What about Denmark?
    What about Germany?
    What about Austria?
    What about Sweden?

    All of these countries have trouble forming government because they have a poor voting system…

  170. 170
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    yeah but Handshin has brains too, Cornes didn’t seem to. Yes hajnal ban was good but she won’t go far with that name. It sounds to middle eastern for the nationals. They need smoths, jones, joyce etc. How did Barnaby the busy buzzy bee go at the meeting today?

  171. 171
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    There was a 7:30 Report because there is no Stateline over summer.

  172. 172
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Glen! At the Canadian election the Liberals and NDP between them got 44.4%, compared with the Tories’ 37.6%. I don’t know what kind of a mandate you think 37.6% of the vote is. The Bloc got 10%, so if they join or support a Liberal-NDP government, that government will represent 54.4% of voters. End of discussion.

  173. 173
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    ARISTOTLE

    Thank you , very informative Agree NSW need watching , although drop in some areas in coalition as well and both partys losses to minor ones is some Labor offset , but there’s a message there for Labor to heed & giv alot of focus on to distinguish

  174. 174
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    So you’ve gone from “unstable” to “trouble forming government”. Ill-defined and pointless.

    If you hadn’t noticed, Canada with their FPP is “unstable”.

  175. 175
    centaur009
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Who does it for the girls or our gay brethren? I’ld be curious to know

  176. 176
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    The problem in Germany is that the SPD won`t work with the Left Party in the West and therefore at federal level.

    Austria has trouble because of the far right.

    I am not aware of any Government forming trouble in Scandinavia.

  177. 177
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    I never said it was a mandate i merely said the Liberal Party got its lowest vote ever
    e v e r in h i s t o r y!

    26% of the vote and 77 seats and 1million less people voting for them.

    The Tories are the most preferred and given a tick to continue as a minority government with 143 seats up from 126 otherwise they’d have gone backwards not forwards Adam.

    The Bloc denied them a majority.

    Adam the Bloc cannot be included…they want to break up the country they dont count as far as i am concerned and shouldnt have any power like what the Liberals and NDP want to give them should they oust Harper. The Lib/NDP Coalition should get its mandate from the people not from the Bloc.

  178. 178
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Glen that is all bollocks and you know it. Feeble even by your standards. I thought you supported the Westminster system?

  179. 179
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Glen if you want to cut the power of the Bloc then support PR because it would cut them from around 51 seats to around 28 seats and the would not have the balance of power because the Liberals, NDP and Greens would have a majority together.

  180. 180
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    I do but for gods sake how can any political party form a government with an organisation that wants to break up the country that is complete bollocks…

    Yes if they have a majority with the Sepratists then yes there is nothing stopping them. But they should take it to the people…they never said they’d form an alliance with the Bloc.

  181. 181
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    In the Canadian Election this year a majority of voters voted for a losing candidate.

    http://www.fairvote.ca/files/news%20release%20-%20october%2017%202008%20-%20orphan%20voters%20total.pdf

  182. 182
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:31 pm | Permalink

    Tom, they all got one vote and it counted once that is democratic.

  183. 183
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Who does it for the girls or our gay brethren? I’ld be curious to know

    Stephen Smith I hear.

  184. 184
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Your warped definition of democratic does not change the fact that a majority of voters voted for losing candidates.

    I say warped because it discounts the ability of those votes to have a chance to elect someone because of where the vote is cast.

  185. 185
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    And how do fell about your pals the British Tories supporting a *separatist party* (the SNP) in government in the Scottish Parliament?

  186. 186
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    “And how do fell” = “And how do you feel”

  187. 187
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Glen

    You ar 1/2 right and 1/2 wrong I feel its outragous th Bloc who want to carve up th Country have balance of power , and your point is valid

    But one has to accept in a democracy thats how th votes and Party shares came out of electon , and surely you ar not suggesting disenfranchising Bloc voters You hav to wear it and hope Bloc do not extract too many concessions from Lberals/NDP

  188. 188
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    I feel its outragous th Bloc who want to carve up th Country

    Why is it outrageous? If the majority in Quebec want to secede, they have a perfect right to do so.

  189. 189
    juliem
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    Glen, did you see this one yet?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-nickolas/this-sucks-but-im-rooting_b_150442.html

    While I didn’t write it, I could have. This guy goes a long way towards explaining why I agree with you on this one tonight …..

    night in Canberra :)

  190. 190
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    adam
    dare they call them (the SNP) the squadrone volante?

  191. 191
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Um (strains to remember Scottish history) – I thought the squadrone volante was a PRO-union party?

  192. 192
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Just saw Turnbull on The 7.30 Report. He was fine.

  193. 193
    Glen
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Adam about as well as the Labor Party does getting support from the Welsh Nationalists in Wales lol

  194. 194
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    the SV were supposed to vote in opposition to Union with English,but at the last moment sided with the pro union
    (the duke of Hamilton de facto leader of the opposition discovered he was suffering toothache,and was not able to be present to vote.

  195. 195
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    That was the WA version, William, after it had been redubbed and photoshopped. In the ES version he was crap.

  196. 196
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

    Yea Whilsts th some questons appeared deadly and viewers may hav loved that , perhaps some viewers didn’t watch how Turnbull handled them

    Its like those TV Debates , each sides srtongest supporters feel there man once easily

  197. 197
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

    won

  198. 198
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    1797
    Tories in power in england ratified the Act of Security

  199. 199
    Jasmine
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Come on Glen I had to get a new password just to come in and share with you. On the one hand you are arguing mandate from the people and then you try to argue they don’t really matter (as in your broad definition of democracy and the majority not supporting the Govt in a FPP election). Come on try and keep to your great mandate of the people argument, or tack right across the course to the far side and stick with whatever voting result happens, but please don’t tack backwards and forwards from side to side without thinking you’ll be taking your argument backwards.

  200. 200
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Answer the question Glen. *You’re* the one who is arguing that it’s forbidden to collaborate with separatists. I’m pointing out that a party you support is doing just that.

    And incidentally the BQ has *two* stated policy objectives. One is an independent Quebec, but the other is the defence of Quebec interests within Canada. If the BQ has decided that a Dion government would be better than a Harper government for Quebec’s interests, they have every right to vote Harper out.

  201. 201
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    I really hope Handshin gets in next election. She would make a very good minister.

  202. 202
    zombie mao
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    and she is hawt

  203. 203
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Ron “I feel its outragous th Bloc who want to carve up th Country”

    ‘Why is it outrageous? If the majority in Quebec want to secede, they have a perfect right to do so.’

    Outrageous of Bloc because they ar sitting in a National Parliament sanctimonously claiming to form a National government , when at every turn they will wish to break th country up

    That is quite separate issue to th absolute right of majority Quebecans wanting to secede Th block hav a right to be National parliament but to be ‘part’ of th National govt of National Cnada is hypocritical at best , but not last politicans to do so

  204. 204
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Read my last post before the fold, Ron

  205. 205
    zombie mao
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    the minister of sport and her adviser in the parliament gym change rooms… soaping each other up in the showers..

    hmmm wrong website for that I guess…

    :D :D

  206. 206
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    and she is hawt

    Well, there is that too ;-)

  207. 207
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Well if Harper is also negotiating , then my criticism applies to him also

    Aspect of Bloc policy of defending Quecbec’s interts within Canada may be a byproduct of riority , secession

    I do not object to Quebecans majority wanting to secede Also I do NOT object to Bloc having members sitting in National Parliament 9democracy , and Glen should reely accept that and wish he would ) , but I do object to them being ‘part’ of a National Govt of a County they wish to dismember Of course from therepoint of view its a politcal advantage to do so , and it is democracy but doe not make it free from criticisng

    Just wonder if in theory , One Nation had balance of power in HoR and had to choose if Howard Govt to continue or Rudd to continue , how one would react however she choosed….

  208. 208
    Centre
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    I think we are all a little biased and a little quick to judge that Red Kerry has torn one of the conservatives to smitherines on the 7.30 Report. However, that was certainly the case tonight.

    I have said Turnbull is a LIGHTWEIGHT from day one. Looks like I was right again. :)

  209. 209
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Zombie and Dario, if you you don’t mind, these are people I know. If you want to masturbate there are other websites you could visit.

  210. 210
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    I’d say Cossie was sitting back with a glass of red in one hand and the remote in the other, a smirk from ear to ear

  211. 211
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    agree totally

  212. 212
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Zombie and Dario, if you you don’t mind, these are people I know. If you want to masturbate there are other websites you could visit.

    Come on Adam… we only said she was hot, and she is!

  213. 213
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    has anyone seen cossie and turnbull in the same room at the same time?????

  214. 214
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Zombie and Dario, if you you don’t mind, these are people I know. If you want to masturbate there are other websites you could visit.

    Introduction…?

    Nationals leader Warren Truss says the Government has done the right thing in allocating part of its $4.7 billion infrastructure package to road and rail projects.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/12/2445471.htm

  215. 215
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/09/12/costello_wideweb__430×286.jpg

  216. 216
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

    http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/09/12/costello_wideweb__430×286.jpg

    Bah, anyone could have done that with Photoshop

  217. 217
    Centre
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Kate Ellis was offered $30k to appear nude in one of the mens magazines. The money would have gone to charity. Kate laughed at the offer, but refused. :(

  218. 218
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Agree totally to #209 These people deserve proper respect

    .
    Centre , if you were diog , I’d be saying …you ar wrong…again

    You started off saying “we are all a little biased and a little quick to judge that Red Kerry has torn one of the conservatives to smitherines…” and then prceeded to be ‘a little biased and a little quick to judge anyway Thats like th numerous people who ar about to insult me saying ‘I don’t wish to arrogant but , and then proceed to be arrogant , and can never understand appology of th insult before delivering that very insult

  219. 219
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Kate laughed at the offer, but refused

    There is no god…

  220. 220
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Actually that photo looks like they’ve just eaten a s**t sandwich

    they better get used to a daily serving

  221. 221
    Centre
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Ron, no.

    I am not being biased about tonights interview. As for being arrogant, I’m only having a little fun. ;)

  222. 222
    polyquats
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    I’m with Ron and Adam (OMG – is the sky falling?). I’m a little tired of the objectifying of female politicians. Grow up, boys.

    And as much as it pains me to admit it, while Allbull is a pathetic light weight, he survived the Kerry the Red reasonably well today. Nothing there to worry the rusted-ons.

  223. 223
    Centre
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Just checking some of the earlier comments, even Glen reckons Turnbull got smashed by Kerry.

  224. 224
    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    Centre so Glen thinks Turnbull got smashed and William says he was fine…Who to believe??!!!

  225. 225
    Centre
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    The sky is falling. Glen is right, William is wrong.

  226. 226
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Centre

    steady on there old son,
    william is never wrong-only sometimes misguided :)

  227. 227
    Andrew
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    Well I;ve seen it and Im with Glen. My fave bit about deficits:

    KERRY O’BRIEN: When you talk about now saying that one should – government should only go into deficit as a last resort, what in your terms is a last resort? Is this not last resort? And they’re not in deficit yet. They’re saying at this stage they’re not going to go into deficit, but they’d be prepared to if they had to. So, what’s last resort for you? Will you wait until we’re in recession, or … ?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, Kerry, well, Kerry, Kerry, we’ll see. I mean, the reality is …

    KERRY O’BRIEN: You don’t know?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, Kerry, you don’t know either.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: No, no, but what I’m saying to you is: you’ve said “as a last resort”. Surely you must have some definition in your mind of what constitutes a last resort before a government would act to go into deficit in order to protect an economy.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: OK, this is the definition – you mightn’t like this – but, what the Government has got to do is to get the best economic outcome for the money it spends. And so what it’s got …

    KERRY O’BRIEN: Oh, well, you’re just going to repeat what you said before, because that isn’t a definition of last resort.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: No, but, you see, the fact is the Government’s got to work out what outcome it needs in terms of stimulating the economy or supporting employment or whatever it is, you know, or providing social equity to people on lower incomes – whatever its goal is. It’s then got to seek to achieve that outcome by using taxpayers’ money most effectively. In other words, it’s got to get the biggest bang for the fewest number of dollars, the fewest bucks. And that is – and the concern that I have and that I think a lot of Australians have is that Mr Rudd will not be as hard-nosed about spending taxpayers’ money as he ought to be and that will in effect use the current financial crisis as a leave pass to relax his discipline. And that’s why …

    KERRY O’BRIEN: Now, Mr Turnbull, with respect, you’re simply repeating what you’ve said earlier twice now. The question really was …

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well it was right the first time.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: No, no. The question really was: how do you define what a last resort is, at which point, you, if you led a Government, would be prepared to go into deficit? You’ve said that’s when Governments should go into deficit, but you won’t tell me what you regard as last resort. Is it before an economy goes into recession to try and stop that happening, to try and prop up jobs? Is it after it’s gone into recession? Is it before it heads into a deep and prolonged recession?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, the short answer is that a Government should not go into deficit other than as a last resort.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: Yes.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: And a last resort means that you shouldn’t go into deficit unless, without going into deficit, you would cause – you would fail to prevent serious economic harm in the economy.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: Like a recession?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, exactly. That’s right.

  228. 228
    Centre
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:26 pm | Permalink

    Andrew yes. I thought the worst part of the interview was when Turnbull said to some business gathering that Rudd should be managing the economy like a business and running a tight ship.

    So Kerry asked something like, would you cut jobs and cut expenditure like business at a time where we face possible recession? Turnbull did not know what to say. He is clearly not upto the job. He is all reputation. I say this at a time where Rudd is not at all threatened by anybody in the Liberal Party.

  229. 229
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:30 pm | Permalink

    There was some speculation in the Herald today that Hockey might be moving to State parliament to take over from Barry.

  230. 230
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    The last sentence of #228 is certainly true. I’ll reserve judgement on the previous sentence.

    It has rained in Canberra all day and all evening without a break. Maybe the drought has broken. Penny Wong could be delivering her big statement on Monday in two feet of water.

  231. 231
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Ok, I’ve had several glasses of red, but reading that transcript back all I could do was laugh myself silly… surely Malcolm could have kept on about the line he has been trying to get out there so far, i.e. JOBS. When Kezza says ‘whats your definition of last resort’ you say when JOBS are lost! You hammer JOBS. Sheesh, even I could have done a better job of it half cut! (no pun intended). Cossie, where are you???

  232. 232
    Centre
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    Also what about the fact that tax cuts are RECURRING, whereas the stimulus package is directly targeted at boosting the economy?

    Turnbull had no answer. He was totally speechless. He is out of his depth. Politics is truly not his field of expertise and he should be doing something else.

  233. 233
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    It has rained in Canberra all day and all evening without a break. Maybe the drought has broken. Penny Wong could be delivering her big statement on Monday in two feet of water.

    Sydney too. 5cm added to the catchment in 24 hours. Precipitation will always be higher under a Labor government.

  234. 234
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    check out the latest images

    http://www.bom.gov.au/products/national_radar_sat.loop.shtml

  235. 235
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Also what about the fact that tax cuts are RECURRING, whereas the stimulus package is directly targeted at boosting the economy?

    Turnbull had no answer. He was totally speechless. He is out of his depth. Politics is truly not his field of expertise and he should be doing something else.

    Yeah, you almost felt sorry for him

  236. 236
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Precipitation will always be higher under a Labor government.

    Genius.

  237. 237
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    Adam way back at #102 said:

    We are about to see a transformation of quite historic proportions - the US is about to become a social democracy, abandoning 200 years of rugged individualism. Even FDR couldn’t quite achieve this, but Obama will, partly by design and partly because he will have no choice. Universal health cover, de facto nationalisation of the banks and the car industry, expansion of state supervision of the economy, state mandated energy reforms to reduce carbon-dependence - all this will transform the US economy and thus US society and politics.

    Cant disagree.

    Now picture this – GM files for Chapter 11 but soon realises that it’s effectively insolvent because of it’s enormous future liabilities regarding pension payments and healthcare provision for its past workforce. Bailout packages are designed and taken to the House but conservative Republicans and liberal Democrats join in an unholy alliance to prevent tax payers money from being pissed up the wall in an exercise of industrial palliative care.

    China steps into the fray and offers to buy GM with promises to not only maintain it’s existing workforce (but not hire new workers, letting attrition take hold over time to reduce labour costs in the US), but also offers the prosepct of GM cars manufactured in the US getting a free pass into the Chinese domestic market tariff (and other state imposed burdens) free. However, they will only buy out GM if the liabilities regarding pensions (which arent particularly shit hot to begin with) and healthcare provision for the previous workforce (which are even less shit hot) are taken over by the government.

    As a result of the Chinese offer, a number of other large US companies join the fray asking for a plan to offload health and pension liabilities onto the State in return for a guarentee of a large continuing domestic presence in the US economy.

    Obama conveniently bites the bullet, not only instituting a solid universal healthcare plan but also piledriving that third rail of American politics – Social Security. Business gets behind both policies for the first time in history (because they no longer have the balance sheet luxury of letting their ideology overrule their corporate self interest), the liberal media goes utterly orgasmic, most Republicans dare not stand in the way and Adams vision of social democracy comes to fruition in the US – not because of some outbreak of political self awareness and deeper understanding of social cost benefit, but simply because of necessity.

    Or am I dreaming here?

  238. 238
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Or am I dreaming here?

    I can’t say I can believe it will go down exactly as you suggest, but I think a watershed is certainly on the horizon

  239. 239
    fredn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Good argument for a bill of rights:

    http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/12/12/unhelpful/

  240. 240
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    If I was Tanner watching that interview I’d be displeasd with Kerry Th most if anyting swingers would get from that interview is Deficits ar bad , Turnbull is against Deficits and Deficits ar only ar last resort , and only if to prevent a recession Thats partly th Libs argument

    Whereas Labor (rightly) wants to strike well before that , and Taner has said this ‘talk’ by MSN is unhelpful to consumer confidense …and it is not , confidense is in trouble

  241. 241
    fredn
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Possum and Adam

    You both may be right but there is a very large underclass in the USA, and a very leaky boarder. The system only works because the underclass gets jack sit. No health care, no unemployment and no pension. It’s going to be one monumental change.

  242. 242
    onimod
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    237 Possum
    …apart from the fact that you’ve made it seem simple.
    China is the wildcard, but even without them it could come to pass.
    Interesting times.

  243. 243
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:47 pm | Permalink

    I dozed through geography a long time ago, but I think a watershed is by definition is on the horizon.

  244. 244
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    Poss
    Two considerations

    1. Is GM essential to the military/industry alliance-pivot point and all that

    2.What is GM’s worth to china? ie what does china stand to gain

  245. 245
    Oz
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    2.What is GM’s worth to china? ie what does china stand to gain

    Good point.

    It’s obviously unprofitable.

    If GM dies there’ll be quite a gap to fill. China already has car companies working to plug that.

  246. 246
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    What nation is currently the biggest in the world without a serious car industry?

  247. 247
    Ron
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Chapter 11 I think allows tthose workers liabilitys to be renotiated as well as all those Dealer contracts , but it won’t giv GM etc from Senate th 25 billion retooling bailout or th 15 billion cash flow bailout…but Chinese may

  248. 248
    Gusface
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    Tom
    China has the largest
    Britain aint got diddly squat

  249. 249
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:58 pm | Permalink

    I dozed through geography a long time ago, but I think a watershed is by definition is on the horizon.

    smartass :)

  250. 250
    Dario
    Posted Friday, December 12, 2008 at 11:59 pm | Permalink

    China has the largest

    Quality is obviously an issue

  251. 251
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    I thought they still made cars in Britain.

  252. 252
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    I think its reached the stage of re-assembly as opposed from the ground up

    could be wrong though and am happy to be corrected

    who is the biggest nation without an auto Industry?

  253. 253
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Fredn went:

    You both may be right but there is a very large underclass in the USA, and a very leaky boarder.

    The working poor issue is probably the trickiest bit in a transition from the current US system to something more social democratic and I dont envy economic policy makers trying to come to terms with that. On the leaky border issue, I wouldnt be surprised in the least if the US got serious about their porous southern border.

    Gus went:

    1. Is GM essential to the military/industry alliance-pivot point and all that
    2.What is GM’s worth to china? ie what does china stand to gain

    GM doesnt seem to do a great deal these days on the military front. They dont do serious hardware, they certainly dont do high tech anything much at all. Some Chinese company approached GM a few weeks ago from all accounts, so they’re interested. The design capability that could then be deployed internationally from GM assets, the brand name for US and western markets (not to mention the Chinese middle class) and the sheer technology and productivity transfer that would be pushed into Chinese domestic plants from a purchase of GM would make it appetizing for Chinese companies.

    Add to that the GM retail outlets that a Chinese company could then use for market penetration in the US and it makes a lot of sense.

  254. 254
    Dario
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    India have one?

  255. 255
    Dario
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    Add to that the GM retail outlets that a Chinese company could then use for market penetration in the US and it makes a lot of sense.

    Agree. A US brand is essential for them to make inroads.

  256. 256
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    India have one?

    An enormous one – the Tata Group

  257. 257
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:09 am | Permalink

    GM doesnt seem to do a great deal these days on the military front. They dont do serious hardware, they certainly dont do high tech anything much at all.

    Oh yes they do

    http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=74&docid=50945

    Also, Popular Science magazine has given GM, Carnegie Mellon University and its Tartan Racing Team a “100 Best Innovations of the Year” award for the self-driving robotic Chevrolet Tahoe that won the DARPA Urban Challenge.

    “The U.S. auto industry is a major investor in R&D and a vital part of our country’s science and technology base,

    see Point 1 of my earlier post

  258. 258
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    I agree that all these events may lead to the US finally having to confront the issue of retirement benefits and healthcare. Nobody will take over GM with that bill hanging over their heads. But it remains doubtful if anyone will take them over without it either. Their promised Volt electric car is still two years away (their promised timing) so who will carry their huge losses on current model lineup for that time? Honda and Toyota are both promising to have expanded hybrid lineups including so called “plug in” hybrids by 2010.

    There are car plants in the UK, they just aren’t owned by UK companies – Vauxhall (GM), Ford, Honda as well.

  259. 259
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    Building hybrids doesnt quite get you into the protected military company species club anymore Gus. Who doesnt R&D and build hybrid test beds these days?

  260. 260
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    India have one?

    Yes, and they own Jaguar.

    How’s that for irony.

  261. 261
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    Sorry Poss
    but some how I think that GM is intrinsic to who the US is.

    DETROIT – From the first electric starter to the crash test dummies that have helped develop life-saving safety features, General Motors’ research and development accomplishments are well known. Now, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers has named GM first among automotive companies in its IEEE Spectrum’s Patent Scorecard.

    (from article previously quoted)

    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/patentsurvey2008

  262. 262
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    “Or am I dreaming here?”

    In first para of scenario , Senate knocks back bailout because of GM’s workers long term workers etc libilities

    Then in last para , because Chinese hav made an offer , this same Senate is going to effectively approve taking over those GM’s workers long term workers etc libilities (guess only 42 billion)

    plus this same Senate is to provide th required 25 billion retooling bailout and th 15 billion cash flow bailout monies REckon they’d be better off dooing this 25 + 15 step with conditions to change managment , car capacity etc

  263. 263
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    There are car plants in the UK, they just aren’t owned by UK companies - Vauxhall (GM), Ford, Honda as well.

    are they simply reassembly plants/dumb factories or true ground up enterprises

  264. 264
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    Gusface

    I don’t wish to “write off” GM because they still have a lot of capability, but I think the IEEE scoreboard is a reflection of history more than current reality. I don’t think GM would be regarded as any sort of technical or innovation leader in the auot industry now. They put way too much money into developing ranges of SUVs in recent years, which are really pretty low-tech machines. Would anyone buy a GM car here or in the US because they thought they were better engineered than a Toyota, Honda or Audi? They do underpin the US (mechanical) engineering industry, but that isn’t where the US has been strong for a long time.

  265. 265
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    who makes the Hummer?

  266. 266
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:31 am | Permalink

    Gus 263 – All of those are substantial enterprises – developing the models and building them. Strictly speaking though, hardly any plants of any companies build entire vehicles these days. So an engine plant in Opel (Germany) may supply carrs built in Vauxhall (UK).

  267. 267
    Dario
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    who makes the Hummer?

    GM I think

  268. 268
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:32 am | Permalink

    I think Hummers are built by a GM subsidiary which they are now trying to sell off.

  269. 269
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    Soc

    India
    China
    japan
    Korea
    Russia
    germany
    USA

  270. 270
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    sorry
    forgot
    france
    Italy

  271. 271
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    UMMM
    Isnt the Hummer part of the US military hardware anyway?

  272. 272
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    I don’t wish to “write off” GM because they still have a lot of capability, but I think the IEEE scoreboard is a reflection of history more than current reality

    Ummmm
    Soc that was from 2008,so munless you are a time traveller, thats pretty current to me

    BTW
    the miltary/aero index top score was 773
    GMs score was 883

    need I say more
    :)

  273. 273
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Isnt the Hummer part of the US military hardware anyway?

    Yep, and it’s an expensive pig of a thing that the Marines and the army would probably quite happily phase out at the first opportunity. You don’t buy a Hummer, you buy an excuse to keep a mechanic on retainer.

    Ron, If I could understand a word you wrote I’d gladly reply.

  274. 274
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Gus

    I presume your point in 269 is that all those countries have car industries? In a way though, that illustrates the other point – making cars alone doesn’t make you a “high-tech” manufacturing economy any more. Honda make cars in Brazil and Thailand and BMW make 3 series models in South Africa. Here is another list:

    Luxembourg
    Norway
    Iceland (till recently)
    Switzerland

    It is a list based on highest per-capita income. None of them make cars.

    The real issue here and in the US over the auto industry is jobs – its how a lot of peopel survive. But it doesn’t make many countries rich, unless you are good enough to make cars to German or Japanese standards. The only people who do that are the Germans and Japanese!

  275. 275
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Yep, and it’s an expensive pig of a thing that the Marines and the army would probably quite happily phase out at the first opportunity. You don’t buy a Hummer, you buy an excuse to keep a mechanic on retainer.

    now now poss

    just pointing out on your 2 criteria how flawed your original proposal is

  276. 276
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Enemy Marsupial

    in my #262 reply….ar you dreamong , I think so

  277. 277
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Gus

    I shoudl point out that I am in favour of bailing out GM in the US (not here if the US folds). However it is in serious trouble and not that competitive. Nobody should be niaive enough to think that a long term solution will not involve profound restructuring adn more cash to develop new technology. Toyota and Honda have been working on hybrids for almost ten years. GM will take time to bridge that gap if they survive.

  278. 278
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:47 am | Permalink

    presume your point in 269 is that all those countries have car industries?

    Soc
    a Home grown “ground up” auto industry gives you the base to make military hardware

    as regrads “hi tech” I defer to the IEEE

    do you have a counter source to them perchance ?

  279. 279
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    Actualy I tink th Senate will , after ‘a negotiated deal’ , capitulate ….and so they should (if they forse those incompetent CEO’s etc mangament out , and change cpacitys , dealer network blah blah all as conditions of tax payers 15 + 25 bill twin reasons bailouts

  280. 280
    ShowsOn
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    The Down is only down 190, that’s now considered perfectly normal!
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^DJI

  281. 281
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Gus – can you remember the Hummer episode with the QLD correctional services mob? They bought these Hummers to patrol the perimeters of the gaols but couldnt afford the maintenance – so the whole lot ended up stashed in a dodgy warehouse where the only activity they undertook was generating rust.

    GM are a good company burdened by bad history, that has some of the worlds best design teams within their structure (including the Australian team that essentially designed the Zeta platform) – but they arent particularly special when it comes technology development.

    All the patents in the world dont mean much if you cant bring that technology to market in a profitable way.

  282. 282
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    Why not just nationalise GM. Have some guts, Congress.

    Buy it then build hybrids and everyone’s happy.

    The issue of whether or not to bail out companies always comes down to two things for me.

    One one hand you have the idiot executives who make poor decisions for a number of years and create unsustainable and untenable companies. They deserve everything they get when the company collapses. On the other hand you have the thousands of workers who haven’t done anything wrong and don’t deserve to lose their jobs.

    That’s why I think a bail out should be in the form of the government taking a significant stake in the operations of the business allowing them to do things the way they want too. They can sell their share later if they want but simply throwing money at something that’s just been shown to fail is ridiculous.

  283. 283
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    Possum, they’ve made a lot of bad decisions relatively recently as well.

    Holden had a working Australian designed and built hybrid ready to roll in 2000 but decided it wasn’t going to be profitable, gave it the flick and continued to build 4L sedans, station-wagons, utes and 4WD’s.

  284. 284
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    Gus

    I just checked that IEEE scoreboard and it ranks companies on number of US patents! So no wonder US auto companies come out on top in those rankings. If it included Japanese or European patents I dare say that you might get a different winner. Toyota is the largest car manufacturer in the world and they have more employees and engineers than GM. I don’t really know what such rankings are worth anyway. The bottom line is Toyota are killing GM in the market. If it weren’t for government fleet buys propping up large sedan sales both here and in the US for years, the trend would be even more marked.

  285. 285
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:02 am | Permalink

    Oz

    It may not be a bad option in the end. Congress would have to come up with at least $40 billion to buy GM just to cover the retirement obligations, plus whatever it costs to develop new models.

    You were right about the GMH hybrid commodore too – I recall Democrats Lyn allison was shwn it and offered to buy one as her work car but was told she couldn’t and then annoyedly got a Prius.

  286. 286
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    Oz – that’s nothin’!!

    Holden could have had the LS7 in their SS Commodores and HSV’s for years!

    As they say, if you can’t think of a reason why you need 500hp – you just aren’t giving the problem your full attention :-D

  287. 287
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:03 am | Permalink

    I just checked that IEEE scoreboard and it ranks companies on number of US patents!

    sacre bleu
    I will write straight away and suggest Bangladesh next time

    Ummmm
    Soc selective quoting does you a disservice

    what does IEEE stand for btw

  288. 288
    Dario
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24793135-31037,00.html

    EUROPEAN Union leaders have reached unanimous agreement on a E200bn ($397.22bn ) economic rescue package at a summit in Brussels, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown says.

  289. 289
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:05 am | Permalink

    Holden could have had the LS7 in their SS Commodores and HSV’s for years!

    Except what I said would have actually aided the company to survive not help it rush to its death =P.

  290. 290
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.

    An electricians club. Since we all know electrical engineers aren’t real engineers.

  291. 291
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    The bottom line is Toyota are killing GM in the market. If it weren’t for government fleet buys propping up large sedan sales both here and in the US for years, the trend would be even more marked.

    And Toyota dont get generous tax breaks and subsidies from the japanese government

    Realworld stuff please people

  292. 292
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    “Why not just nationalise GM. Have some guts, Congress.”

    No , govt is not good running such business’s Agree about th guts bit but , just put in th 40 billion with list of conditions (sacking top boys as starters) , and Board reps representing th 40 billion tax payers money

    Just watch them show no guts but capitulate but not with clever netotiating for th 40 billion Why does IEEEE come into this

  293. 293
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    The bottom line is Toyota are killing GM in the market.

    Toyota sells more cars in Australia now than both Ford and Holden combined.

  294. 294
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    No , govt is not good running such business’s

    Whereas the private sector is…? Are we talking GM being bankrupt or something else?

  295. 295
    Dario
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers

    I used to be a member, a long, long time ago :D

  296. 296
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:09 am | Permalink

    An electricians club. Since we all know electrical engineers aren’t real engineers

    I’ll send that one to NASA :)

  297. 297
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:10 am | Permalink

    Except what I said would have actually aided the company to survive not help it rush to its death =P.

    But think of the Bogans Oz! :-D

  298. 298
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:12 am | Permalink

    But think of the Bogans Oz!

    That was probably plastered all over the walls at Holden HQ for motivation.

  299. 299
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:14 am | Permalink

    Gus IEEE was your link – I read what it stood for in 261 myself. I am an engineer by profession myself so thats not exactly news.

    I don’t see what is “selective quoting” in pointing out the basis of your own argument in 261.

    I don’t understand why you seem so determined to prove that GM are technical leaders? I don’t agree with it, but why does it matter to you so much? I’m not saying they are hopeless but I think they clearly went in the wrong technical direction for some years and that has hurt them. However I think the loss of employment alone is enough justification to help (the workers).

  300. 300
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:15 am | Permalink

    Why does IEEEE come into this

    possum had basically said GM was not in the hi tech club

    I vehemently disagreed and quoted the IEEE 2008 list of patents and adjusted scorecard

    GM shat on the rest of the world in adjusted terms

    GM 883
    Lockheed 773

  301. 301
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    The EU package contains support for motor industries, funnily enough. No detail though.

  302. 302
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:17 am | Permalink

    GM shat on the rest of the world in adjusted terms

    Adjusted for what?

    Didn’t someone point out it was American patents? I wonder who wins in Japanese patents?

  303. 303
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:18 am | Permalink

    “Whereas the private sector is…? Are we talking GM being bankrupt or something else?”

    As gusface said ‘Realworld stuff please people’ Private sector ar best at running competivie private enterprise business’s of this size , but poor mannagement sends any private sector business down , and it has with US Auto (both in product aged plant marketng etc) , plus foolish past Govt pork barrelling

    If you tink US Govt could Nationalise and run GM successfuly , then hav a look at history

  304. 304
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:21 am | Permalink

    Didn’t someone point out it was American patents? I wonder who wins in Japanese patents?

    Obviously you’ve never done business with Japan Inc

  305. 305
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:23 am | Permalink

    Gus

    The IEEE is just one measure. Lots of industries develop such measures as a means of self promtion. Here is a German link that proudly shoes that in 2005 they issued more automotive patents than Japan or the USA. That doesn’t mean they are the best either. The point is just to show that its not as simple as finding some index and saying “voila – the argument is won”.
    http://www.cologne-bonn-business.de/index.php?id=36&L=1

    The trouble with fishing on the internet for data on questions like this is that it tends to favour the english language countries. So companies like GM score better. But that doesn’t mean they are the leaders.

  306. 306
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Irrespective of patents as thats not decisive , ar you on board ..agree to bailout with conditions incl change mangement , Board Reps etc , or against it

  307. 307
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    Ron

    I think the US should bailout GM, on strict conditions. The overal loss of jobs would be huge if they go down, though not 3 million. But there needs to eb a time limit: if not profitable in say 3 years then they should close.

  308. 308
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    {The trouble with fishing on the internet for data on questions like this is that it tends to favour the english language countries.}

    Soc
    all my Links are from the orgs themselves

    So is the IEEE the Peak body for Hi Tech or not?

  309. 309
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:33 am | Permalink

    The EU has agreed to 20% emissions cut by 2020. Dunno what that means for Poznan.

    Ron, anyone could run it more successfully than the status quo.

  310. 310
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    Well Socrates , you and I ar saying same thing I do not understand reticence in Senate , or indeed here by some….ramifications otherwise ar massive for US , and equally bad s flow on here in ‘oz’

  311. 311
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    If you tink US Govt could Nationalise and run GM successfuly , then hav a look at history

    But what about AvtoVAZ! That Russian private-state joint venture even came in a Peter Brock version in Oz with the Lada Niva

    (tongue firmly in cheek there even though that’s all true enough)

    Maybe that’s GM’s problem – AvtoVAZ went into patnership with GM over the Lada to produce the Chevy Niva

    http://www.gm-avtovaz.ru/new_en/inside.php?page=contents/cars/featuresN

    Aardvark of a car by any yardtick.

  312. 312
    Socrates
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:36 am | Permalink

    Gus – there is no such thing as a “peak body for high-tech”. IEEE is one of several bodies that represent people who work in those industries.

    You still haven’t answered my other questions – why are you so desperate to prove GM are technical leaders? I don’t think thats true. But why does it matter to you so much?

    For the record I live in Adelaiddie so have nothign to gain by seeing GMH go down. I don’twant it to happen. But I see no point in kidding myself about the reality they face.

    Night Ron.

  313. 313
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    OZ , thats true….however some including Govt run only would still end up running it at a loss As Socrates and I agrre , one would only hand over th money in exchange for strict conditions including firing curent (failed as you rightly say) management

    Enemy Marsupial , ar you disagreeng my view that th US government itself would be unsuccessful trying to running GM etc successfully , now that indeed would be marsupial dreaming

  314. 314
    Ron
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:41 am | Permalink

    Nite Socrates

  315. 315
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    You still haven’t answered my other questions - why are you so desperate to prove GM are technical leaders? I don’t think thats true. But why does it matter to you so much?

    No reason soc,other than the fact that GM aint the dinosaur many are painting it as.

    Also re the IEEE I know of no similair body,just wondering if there was a comparable worldwide organisation of leading electricians and eletrical engineers ,affiliated to NASA among other august bodies, that existed.

  316. 316
    Boerwar
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:54 am | Permalink

    So, what ought to be done for the managers/owners of an industry that promoted the civilian use of the SUV gas guzzlers, including Hummers, when anthropogenic climate change was already having measurable impacts?

    Total lack of perspective. Total lack of any sense of global responsibility. Total greed.

    Now that they are quite justifiably going down the tubes of history, they do what these ratbags normally do – point at workers jobs and start screaming about the need to protect the livelihood of workers. Add ‘total hypocrites’ to the litany.

  317. 317
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    btw
    poss started this
    I’m simply saying GM wont be sold to China and defending my rationale.

    It used to be called debating :(

  318. 318
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:04 am | Permalink

    Blame me Gus! :-D

  319. 319
    Boerwar
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:30 am | Permalink

    Congratulations to Katherine Murphy for a mature, sensible, contribution to what ought long ago to have been a considerable debate about our war in Afghanistan. I have been waiting for some time for this to happen and am glad the MSM is catching up with reality in Afghanistan. The link is:

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/the-forgotten-war-20081212-6xiz.html?page=3

    If, as looks increasingly likely, the exit strategy cannot mean a military ‘victory’ then it must mean a political settlement.

    Why should Australian soldiers keep dying in a war that can neither be won nor lost militarily? If there cannot be a military solution, what is an appropriate diplomatic solution? When will the Rudd Government take steps to help initiate the diplomatic dialogue that this will necessarily involve? If the Rudd Government is waiting for something to change before Australia does something different from what Australia is doing now, what exactly is Australia waiting for?

    Waiting for waiting’s sake just adds senselessly to the death toll.

  320. 320
    Boerwar
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 3:10 am | Permalink

    Further to Tracey Murphy’s article: In any overseas military war Australians are simultaneously fighting against something and for something. The Howard Government, followed by the Rudd Government, have found it difficult to talk publicly about what is we are fighting for.

    I am providing a link for those interesed in a description of what we are fighting for in Afghanistan. I will not say that is an accurate description. I will say it is the sort of description that should make the Australian Government profoundly concerned to check exactly what it is we are fighting for.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/aug/16/drugstrade.afghanistan

  321. 321
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    For whomever was following the MN recount besides myself :-D

    Al Franken received a potentially major boost towards his hopes of becoming Senator on Friday, when Minnesota state officials ruled that absentee ballots rejected because of clerical or administrative errors should, in the end, be counted.

    The decision by the state canvassing board -- which was unanimous -- is, essentially, an official request for county officials to go back and count the wrongfully rejected absentee votes. This process has already begun in many counties and could portend sizeable gains for Franken.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/12/franken-wins-major-victor_n_150560.html

  322. 322
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Seems that the WH will use some of the money approved in October after all, the only question is how soon ….. (source TheHill.com which is the website for the House and the Senate)

    Corker: WH intervention killed auto bill
    By Alexander Bolton
    Posted: 12/12/08 02:12 PM [ET

    Sen. Bob Corker (Tenn.), the lead Republican negotiator on a last-minute effort to bail out U.S. automakers, said a deal might have been possible Friday had the White House not intervened.

    Corker said that Ron Gettelfinger, the president of the United Auto Workers (UAW), has halted discussions after receiving indication from White House officials that they will use funds from the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) to save U.S. automakers.
    ]
    [
    Corker said he had put a call in to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and would urge Paulson to attach to the relief at least two of the conditions Democrats and Republicans had agreed to Thursday.

    Corker declined to say that Republicans had missed an opportunity by not yielding on autoworkers' wages, the issue that scuttled the bailout package. He said many Democrats also wanted to see the industry required to reduce its debt, such as through equity swaps with bondholders and/or equity contributions to Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Associations.

    White House officials sought to reassure the financial markets shortly before they were scheduled to open Friday.

    “[G]iven the current weakened state of the U.S. economy, we will consider other options if necessary — including use of the TARP program — to prevent a collapse of troubled automakers,” said White House spokeswoman Dana Perino in a statement issued minutes before markets opened.

    Corker said that after Gettelfinger received indication that federal aid was coming, he did not see a need to continue negotiations.
    ]

  323. 323
    MayoFeral
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    You have to wonder what the US automakers are doing with all those patents because they don’t appear to be showing up in their product

    The biggest selling vehicles in auto history, by a huge margin, aren’t the VW Beetle or Toyota Corolla, or the Mini, but the Ford F-series utes and the GM equivalent. Thumping big low-tech V8-V10 iron engines shoehorned into poorly welded, top heavy bodies sitting on leaf spring suspensions little advanced on that of the covered wagons that crossed the prairies, and stopped, eventually, by tiny drum brakes. Suicide on wheels. If they don’t kill you directly, the sheer volume of exhaust emissions will, along with the rest of the planet.

    Forget pension and medical plans or the “high” wages paid to their employees, the reason GM, Ford and Chrysler are facing extinction is that they build crap.

    And yes, I’m biased. The closest I’ve ever come to dying was behind the wheel of the 1957 Chevy I briefly owned as a teenager. Wish I still had it though, they’re worth big bickies these days :(

  324. 324
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    Agrees with Mayo.
    Let the dinosaurs die, so that the mammals can inherit the earth.

  325. 325
    dyno
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    “Forget pension and medical plans or the “high” wages paid to their employees, the reason GM, Ford and Chrysler are facing extinction is that they build crap.”

    It’s a bit of both, I wold have thought.

    But sure, it’s time for them all to go.

  326. 326
    Diogenes
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    I’ve got Cossie to lead the Libs to the next election. A “Liberal insider” said this:

    Asked if Peter Costello could still emerge as a threat to Mr Turnbull, the answer was definitive.

    "As soon as Costello lets anyone know what he's doing, if he says 'I'm staying', then I would say, all bets are off.

    "If he's staying then, people will want to make him leader and look, they are already ringing him... quite literally, dozens of people would have called Peter Costello to encourage him to stay on in the last three weeks."

    http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24789900-5006301,00.html

  327. 327
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Diogenes, I was thinking of calling Peter Costello and asking him to stay myself. I love destabilization in the Liberal Party.

  328. 328
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    From the Saturday print edition of the Canberra Times, we’ve another pollie (also a Lib) who has been caught out plagarizing ….. Apologies to all but I can NOT find a URL for this so will briefly summarize. The story isn’t anywhere on their internet site. (Maybe if Frank reads this post in WA he can comment if there are stories appearing locally out there about this).

    Mal Washer took his wife along on a $33,000 taxpayer funded overseas study trip for 4 weeks this year in March and April. According to part of the 2 page article, “Text amounting to some nine pages of Dr. Washer’s 30 page report to Special Minister of State John Faulkner appears to have been cut and pasted without alteration or attribution from tourist information and other websites.”

  329. 329
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Neither am I convinced that Newspoll does not reflect what has happened in the preceding parliamentary week. While the average person does not watch or listen to parliament directly, the feel for the major events is quickly transferred to the wider community.

  330. 330
    polyquats
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Another take on the auto bailout

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-l-borosage/herbert-hoover-time_b_150537.html

  331. 331
    Centre
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Just one minor point about patents, it’s not the number of patents that may be granted by a particular country, but the inventiveness of those patents. Obviously GMH and Ford had been stuck in the past for too long. Yep, let them fold I say.

    Will Cossie leads the Liberals? I’ll be rubbing in to a few of the PB’ers if he does!

  332. 332
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Depends what your definition of “lead” is Centre.

  333. 333
    Fargo61
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    With reference to Newspoll’s latest quarterly aggregation of polling broken down by state and age group, why does the overall change in voting intention, as polled over time, not correlate more closely with stated the male and female breakdowns?

    For example, the figures for the Greens show that both male and female support has gone up by 4% since the election, yet the overall increase is only 2.2%. There are similar apparent anomalies with the other parties results.

  334. 334
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    Poss
    Final comment re the auto industry

    Does the USA divest itself of a key cog in the military/industrial complex.
    Does it also allow the intellectual capital to be offloaded,some of which is definitely “hi-tech”

  335. 335
    Centre
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    That should read “If Cossie leads the Liberals?”

    “lead” means to certain defeat at the next election :)

  336. 336
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Fargo, it’s probably just a rounding anomaly seeing it is an aggregate of four quarterly polls. Small changes in smaller numbers show a bigger percentage change than small changes in bigger figures.

    Think of it this way, a one cent change in a five cent share has a huge percentage change compared to a one cent change in a share worth $100.

  337. 337
    Diogenes
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Looks like there is more to the story in the Victorian police shooting of the 15 year old. It has all the hallmarks of a “suicide by cop” where the “victim” forces the police to shoot him in an act of suicide. He didn’t have a mental health problem but he was mixed up in a neo-fascist anti-immigration group.

    Tyler's MySpace page reveals he was a member of the anti-immigration white-pride Southern Cross Soldiers, a group formed in the wake of the Cronulla riots, which specialises in Romper Stomper-style street violence against rival gangs and ethnic minorities.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24792760-601,00.html

  338. 338
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    He didn’t have a mental health problem but he was mixed up...

    Huh?

  339. 339
    Diogenes
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    “mixed up” as in “involved with”

    Here’s a great interview with NNT describing his book “Black Swans” which predicted the GFC. It’s a fantastic book but this 20 minute interview gives you the gist of it. Basically, financial analysts are thick. There’s a little more to it but that sums it up.

    http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9713

  340. 340
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Hugh Jackman is hosting the Oscars.

  341. 341
    The Finnigans
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Diog, you are right this time about “there is more to the story in the Victorian police shooting of the 15 year old”.

    I posted at #136 “Now, would it be too insensitive to say good riddance? Yes, it would, my apology. No, it wouldn’t”. The Age is reporting that:

    Detectives investigating Tyler's death are examining an emergency call from a young male saying, "Get the cops. I am killing people tonight." The same caller rang back pretending to be a panicked witness, screaming there was a man with a shotgun who needed to be killed. Both calls are believed to have been made from the dead teenager's mobile phone.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/two-knives-three-alarmed-police-officers-and-a-scared-little-boy-lies-dead-in-seconds-20081212-6xnm.html?page=-1

    There is nothing “normal” when a case like this happened. There are always many sides and shades to the story.

  342. 342
    Tom the first and best
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    The only police who should carry guns in normal circumstances are Special Operations Group type units and gun crime units. In Victoria this means taking on the Police Association on an issue where they would be very stubborn.

  343. 343
    Diogenes
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    I love this phrase “gone to money heaven”.

    Investors scrambled to assess potential losses from an alleged $50 billion fraud by Bernard Madoff, a day after the arrest of the prominent Wall Street trader.

    Prosecutors and regulators accused the 70-year-old, who was chairman of the Nasdaq Stock Market in the early 1990s, of masterminding a fraud of epic proportions through his investment advisory business, which managed at least one hedge fund.

    "It appears that at least $15 billion of wealth, much of which was concentrated in southern Florida and New York City, has gone to 'money heaven,'" he said.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Madoff-alleged-50-billion-rb-13819411.html

  344. 344
    bob1234
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    The belief by rusted-on Liberals that Costello can take the party to victory is as deluded as thinking Rudd is a one-term government.

    Costello might have the power to bring the rusted-on Liberals back in to the fold, which at a preferred PM of 66-19, some rusted-on Liberals currently support Rudd, but he definately will not be able to attract the swing voters who have flocked to Labor in droves.

  345. 345
    Diogenes
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    bob

    They won’t win with Cossie but they will be thrashed by less (IMHO).

  346. 346
    MayoFeral
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Those kneegerkers calling for Muslims to be nuked following the Mumbai attack might find this revealing:

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175013/arundhati_roy_the_monster_in_the_mirror

    There is no shortage of victims, of varying degrees of innocents or guilt, in the unholy religious and political mess that is the Subcontinent

  347. 347
    MayoFeral
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Those kneegerkers calling for Muslims to be nuked following the Mumbai attack might find this revealing:

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175013/arundhati_roy_the_monster_in_the_mirror

    There is no shortage of victims, of varying degrees of innocents or guilt, in the unholy religious and political mess that is the Subcontinent

  348. 348
    MayoFeral
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Oops! :(

  349. 349
    Centre
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    I actually had a little on Costello to take over the leadership for the next election when Brenda was leader. The main reason being that if Cossie was serious about leaving politics he would have given a firm comittment to do so and when. I thought that he would prefer to take the leadership from a position of strength rather than a position of weakness straight after the election.

    I really don’t know what Cossie is thinking. Maybe he thinks leading the party after Labor’s second term (therefore leading the party after the 2010 election) would give him his best chance of becoming PM. Either way, he is most certainly too weak to ever be Australia’s PM.

    The best part of all this is that the Liberals, before they ever win government again, are going to regret so much that Howard did not quit on his 10th anniversary that they may feel anger towards him. :)

  350. 350
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Just watched the Turnbull interview from last night (which I missed). Oh my God!

    The transcript is beautiful. What a pity there’s no QT this week!

    KERRY O'BRIEN: You told - and reason I'm asking about your definition of toughness is you told a forum in Sydney this week, "Imagine a chief executive of business in challenging economic times who stood up in front of his managers and said, 'Don't worry: I've decied we can go into a loss - no need to cut costs, no need to maximise output.’" Is that how you see the Government's role in managing the economy - like running a business? So, when times get tough, you cut costs and sack people, which is one of the primary things that business do as a defensive mechanism?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Yeah, well, Kerry, I think the point is it's a question - it's not a perfect comparison between a business and government, obviously. But the point is ...

    KERRY O'BRIEN: But you made it.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Alright. Well, you've given me the opportunity to respond to you. The point is that governments have got to be prepared to make tough decisions about spending. They've gotta make tough decisions about investment. They've got to make tough decisions about, you know, budget outcomes, budget surplus versus deficit. And, so far, we haven't seen Mr Rudd take any unpopular decisions. And he's made a number of decisions ...

    KERRY O'BRIEN: But can you think of one unpopular decision he should have taken that he hasn't?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, he's certainly - well, I'll give you the very good example: he certainly shouldn't have gone for an unlimited deposit guarantee. I mean that, in itself, has created enormous ...

    KERRY O'BRIEN: No, I'm talking on the spending side. Your saying every dollar spent should be very carefully spent. So, is there a tough decision involving spending that he should've taken that he hasn't?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, we'll - Kerry, we'll see. We'll see how this stimulus works out.

    KERRY O'BRIEN: So you don't know of one now? You can't nominate one.

    and the first up response by Kerry shows how Turnbull is now automatically pegged:

    MALCOLM TURNBULL, OPPOSITION LEADER: Well, Kerry, I'd welcome these initiatives. I have to say that the bulk of them are initiatives of the previous Government, and in fact in some cases, they're short-changing the projects. I notice there's a $1.2 billion spend for the Australian Rail Track Corporation and we had committed to $1.5 billion. So, it's essentially bringing forward some projects that had already been committed to under the previous Government.

    KERRY O'BRIEN: So, just so we're clear, this isn't going to be one of those cases where you support it now and then down the road you might change your tune a bit?

  351. 351
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Coleman is feeling the heat ;-) ….

    The campaign of Sen. Norm Coleman is taking its case to the state Supreme Court, asking the justices to order counties to follow a standard procedure in identifying wrongfully rejected absentee ballots. It is asking county officials to halt any counting of rejected absentee ballots from the U.S. Senate election until the justices can rule on the campaign's request.

    The campaign said that it feared what it called a chaotic "Florida situation" and that it is likely to go to the court today.

    The announcement came just hours after the state Canvassing Board, which is overseeing the recount in contest between Coleman and Democrat Al Franken, voted unanimously to ask election officials in all 87 counties to identify and count improperly rejected ballots. Board members stressed that they only have the authority to make a recommendation and not to issue an order.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/12/norm-coleman-seeks-to-sto_n_150687.html

  352. 352
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    Oh geez, the interview is just the gift that keeps on giving:

    KERRY O'BRIEN: But you still support it as much today as you did when it came out?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, Kerry, it's not a question of supporting it or not supporting it. It's happened. It's a done deal.

    KERRY O'BRIEN: But it is. If it comes down to your credibility and your consistency as Opposition leader, I think it's absolutely relevant if it's ...

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Kerry, we voted for it. That's how much we supported it.

    KERRY O'BRIEN: Okay.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: But just let me go on, because you've - ...

    KERRY O'BRIEN: Yeah.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: We're overlooking the real question. The real question is: will it work?

    Hang on?? So you supported and voted for a policy that you don’t think will work????

  353. 353
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Grog @ 350,

    Doesn’t matter what the topic, Rudd doesn’t need QT :-D

    Mr Turnbull reportedly said on Saturday the coalition opposition would "not oppose" Labor's new workplace laws.

    But he then seemed to hedge his bets, saying some laws would still be opposed.

    "Our principles are enduring, but we must frame our policies in the light of changing circumstances and, most importantly, in the light of the judgment of the people delivered at the election - which we heard loud and clear," Mr Turnbull told The Australian.

    The prime minister seized on the comments.

    "Less than 12 months ago, Mr Turnbull said that Work Choices was the most important reform to industrial relations in the history of Australia," Mr Rudd told reporters in Sydney.

    "Less than 12 months later he says that he is now completely opposed to Work Choices.

    "Will the real Malcolm Turnbull please stand up," Mr Rudd said.

    The savaging from Mr Rudd offers Mr Turnbull little respite heading into Christmas.

    http://news.theage.com.au/national/rudd-savages-struggling-turnbull-on-ir-20081213-6xts.html

  354. 354
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Rainmaker again!

    If it works he can’t lose because he supported it. If it doesn’t work (and he hasn’t defined what that means) then he gets to say “Well we wanted tax cuts all along”.

  355. 355
    Muskiemp
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Howard did it better than Mal T.
    Everything Howard said could be taken however it suited the situation.

  356. 356
    bob1234
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    Grog, no, this is even better:

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: So far, we haven’t seen Mr Rudd take any unpopular decisions. And he’s made a number of decisions …

    KERRY O’BRIEN: But can you think of one unpopular decision he should have taken that he hasn’t?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, he’s certainly – well, I’ll give you the very good example: he certainly shouldn’t have gone for an unlimited deposit guarantee. I mean that, in itself, has created enormous …

    KERRY O’BRIEN: No, I’m talking on the spending side. Your saying every dollar spent should be very carefully spent. So, is there a tough decision involving spending that he should’ve taken that he hasn’t?

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, we’ll – Kerry, we’ll see. We’ll see how this stimulus works out.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: So you don’t know of one now? You can’t nominate one.

    MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, Kerry, I’m not going – I’m not nominating one.

  357. 357
    onimod
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    I really don’t know which interview WB watched, but that’s a shocker from Turnbull.
    When you find yourself in a hole – stop digging!!
    He really has no idea about policy and not surprisingly then has no idea about how to implement it.
    To put it another way – he hasn’t worked out that politics is a stepping stone to governance.
    He doesn’t even have the makings of a minister; opposition leader is way past his limits.
    While there’s a fair bit of bagging of the US going on around here lately, Turnbull wouldn’t last 5 minutes against a bunch of American commentators, and sure they’ve got a bigger pool to draw from, but leadership is leadership.

  358. 358
    BH
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    WA must have seen a different version of 7.30 Report. I disagree with William too.

    Our neighbour who still thinks Howard is terrific has just told us that he thought Turnbull was ‘b…. terrible on telly last night and wants Howard back’. No need for us to say anything really but our grins must have been obvious.

    Unless Malcolm is allowed to rabbit on alone (as on rw radio) he seems to lose track when confronted and ends up sounding a bit silly.

    Ruddie wasn’t brilliant the night before. He he looked a bit tired but he certainly didn’t look foolish.

  359. 359
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    The Liberals are revolting according to today’s paper.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24792666-5006786,00.html

  360. 360
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    You can read Tuckey’s letter here:

    http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/letters/index.php/theaustralian/comments/coalition_partyroom_should_introduce_secret_ballots/

  361. 361
    Scotty J
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    A point of interest with the whole Nationalise the automotive industry in the United States. In Germany, the State of Lower Saxony owns 20.2 percent of Volkswagen still. Quite interesting history they have.

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/volk-s20.shtml

  362. 362
    bob1234
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    steve @ 359:

    “The Liberals are revolting according to today’s paper.”

    Saying The Liberals refers to them as a group. I’d hardly say the party MPs are revolting, just a few of them, and mainly towards Barnaby/Nationals, not Turnbull.

  363. 363
    The Finnigans
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Why is Cossie even in the consideration for the future is beyond me. In the last episode of the Coward Years last Monday, Cossie looked like a coward, a loser and a tragic figure. The punters know that. Move on pls, focus on the younger guns.

  364. 364
    vera
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

    Ruddie wasn’t brilliant the night before. He he looked a bit tired

    BH he’d had a busy day, off the plane from Indonesia then to Bendigo then did 7.30 Report.
    Seems like the Bendigo folk like Kevie

    The bank's Owen Davies says the Prime Minister received a great response from the crowd.

    "When the Prime Minister actually entered the stage, he got a tremendous cheer from the crowd," he said.

    "We had about 1,500 to 2,000 people there and I think everybody in the crowd realised that he'd been in Bali and had made a huge effort to get to Bendigo for the opening, so he got a rousing cheer which was great."

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/12/2445162.htm?site=centralvic

  365. 365
    BH
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    But Finns – the younger mob have also worshipped at the shrines of either Howard or Costello.

    Just listen to them. The only thing they really excel in is personal denigration of Govt. Ministers. The mantra is that the Govt ARE incompetent fools whereas the voters thought in 2007 that the Coalition were. Shows how much more intelligent the voters are.

    Apart from Hunt there is hardly a decent, positive thought among them and he often spouts off without thinking first.

    During the few times that I have been to QT this year I have been embarrassed at the performances of Pyne, Ciobo & Co. who sit on the end of the opposition bench. They act like schoolboys during the whole session.

    My grandson and his mates are more together than that mob.

    T

  366. 366
    BH
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    I forgot that Vera – events move so quickly nowdays that even his trip to Bali seems ages ago. Doesn’t that Bendigo crowd cheer the spirit up.

    I hope he takes a well earned break over Christmas. He deserves it.

    Heard ABC TV News here last night say that Rudd was copying Obama’s plans for infrastructure building. What!! I said – Obama, I felt, put Rudd’s ideas into his campaign but now we are supposed to believe that Rudd had no infrastructure plans before yesterday. I think the ABC is relying on juniors to write their damn news leads. If seniors are writing that stuff then our 8c+ a day is well and truly wasted.

    Have just finished a book called “The Race” by RN Patterson. Was written in 2007 about US republican race for nomination. A character in it was a deadset ringer for a certain well known media magnate with connections to a ‘fair and balanced’ tv outlet. From watching the recent election bunfight over there it seems that the author had some terrific insider information.

  367. 367
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    http://news.smh.com.au/national/rudd-savages-struggling-turnbull-on-ir-20081213-6xts.html

    Quite a savage article from the Herald.

  368. 368
    bob1234
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Oz:

    “There was only limited reaction from the opposition on Friday when the government announced it would spend $4.7 billion on infrastructure to stave off the effects of the global financial crisis, a sign many frontbenchers were busier dealing with internal politics than holding the government to account.

    Mr Turnbull heads into the break with woeful polls hanging over him and a damaged deputy leader, Julie Bishop, dragging him down.”

    That is the really damaging bit. Australians turn off when a party becomes more preoccupied with itself than current issues.

    Coalition in opposition for another 13 years.

  369. 369
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    It is unkind to refer to any Liberal Party members as revolting – with the possible exception of Christopher Pyne.

  370. 370
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    It turns out that an Indian Businessmen’s dinner three days before the arrest of the Illinois governor may be the key to the debacle.

    Questions are being raised about last Saturday's event for Blagojevich because Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr.'s brother, Jonathan, was among those attending. The Indian community has a long history of supporting the Jackson family's political aspirations, and the congressman has been clear about his interest in succeeding Obama.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_re_us/illinois_governor_jackson

  371. 371
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    OT -

    Any bets on how long it will take before this technology turns up in Oz? The coppers would love it ;-) ….

    Car key blocks mobile phone use while driving

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/car-key-blocks-mobile-phone-use-while-driving-20081213-6xu4.html

  372. 372
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    Re 269,

    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:14 pm | Permalink
    It is unkind to refer to any Liberal Party members as revolting - with the possible exception of Christopher Pyne.

    No, Tony Abbot and Mr. Old Age himself, Ruddock, fit the bill on this one as well :-D

  373. 373
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    William, am I just unlucky today or have there been words within the quoted text from my news snippets that are flagging your moderation? I’ve had 3 today hit the moderation queue, albeit temporarily :(

    When you have something in the mod queue, if it is a bad word, is that bad word highlighted or something? Or is it up to you to guess why it is there?

    Cheers :)

  374. 374
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    If Rudd is extremely popular in a place like Bendigo then the Liberals are screwed, yes it is a ALP seat but Bendigo is the type of place that is good at giving it too Government but if Rudd’s populary is holding then Rudd can be very pleased indeed.

    Malcolm Turnbull seems to be struggling with the whole notice off what to do with the budget, Malcolm needs to work out is he willing to support a one or two years of deficits or is he against.

    It should be very straightforward for someone who comes from a financial background.

  375. 375
    Centre
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull thinks the budget is a profit and loss statement!

  376. 376
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    367 Oz – yes a pretty tough Headline:
    Rudd savages stuggling Turnbull.

    When they start using adjectives like that, it’s not good. (and also pretty bad journalism – but then sub editors seem to operate under different rules…)

  377. 377
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Profit – Turnbull’s vaingloriousness

    Loss – Turnbull’s PPM

  378. 378
    onimod
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Does he really have financial background?
    I mean if I was a lawyer in the mining sector does it mean I’d have any special insight into getting minerals out of the earth?
    Is his financial mojo all a bit of a myth, because it seems at this stage he’s about as credible as Costello (no – not the Glen-world view – the Treasury-world view, and if you’re a non-neoclassical, even that’s worth diddly too)?

  379. 379
    The Finnigans
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

    #371 –

    I’ve had 3 today hit the moderation queue

    WB is well known for, let put mildly, “i want to see you suffer” streak.

  380. 380
    ShowsOn
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    I just did the face to face Morgan Poll.

    The political questions were as you wold expect, they weren’t polling for anything special there.

    Though they did ask “right track / wrong track” questions that Morgan seems to love these days.

  381. 381
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    378 Finnigans,

    That is a bit unfair imho …. sticking up for William here. With one singular exception and that was dealt with offlist [ That one time, we've agreed to disagree and I dropped it there, "off list and behind closed doors". ], since I’ve been on PB (about 6 to 9 months prior to the Federal Election), William has been well and truely fair with me. Even when I exceeded the bounds of acceptability about a month prior to the election in October 07, I deserved it then. That time the general topic was religion and we all know well and truely what kind of troubles religious issues can get us into on PB :-D …..

  382. 382
    The Finnigans
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    #365 – BH

    But Finns - the younger mob have also worshipped at the shrines of either Howard or Costello.

    At their peril, dear boy, at their own peril.

    Anyway, let’s give some more joy to the Fibs with this scenario:

    1. Mr. Lu Kewen to serve out this term

    Bloody hell, he even has his own website: http://www.lukewen.com/

    2. Mr. Lu will win in 2010 and serve out the full term

    3. Mr. Lu will also run in 2013 and proclaim that he will pass the baton on to Julia Baby sometime in 2014/2015.

    4. Julia Baby will run in 2016 and win

    5. Julia Baby will also run in 2019 and win

    6. Julia Baby will also run in 2022 and proclaim that she will pass the baton on to ????? sometime in 2023/2024.

    Cricket anyone?

  383. 383
    Diogenes
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Finns

    You rightly get slapped by William on a frequent basis for egregious misbehaviour which is only to be expected from a self-proclaimed Marxist revolutionary. ;)

  384. 384
    Greensborough Growler
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    It’s interesting to speculate on 2009 and beyond.

    While it would be nice to think that the Rudd Reich may extend for a thousand years, the reality is that next year will likely be the start of the decline in Rudd’s personal political capital. With unemployment and inflation likely to be higher next year, we have two of the three ingredients that traditionally lead to an election loss in place. (The other being higher interst rates). These combined with possible negative equity for home owning battlers, then it is not difficult to envisage a disgruntled Australian electorate.

    Of course the Libs have been shooting themselves and their party down for some time with their poor tactics, selfish indulgences and lack of policy development. However, as we saw earlier this year in WA, this is not necessarily an impediment to being elected to Govern.

    The good thing is that Rudd and the government are not kidding themselves about the job ahead. I wish them well but know in my bones that Labor’s huge ascendancy of the present will not be there at the end of 2009 and we will likely be looking at a tight election scenario in 2010.

  385. 385
    juliem
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    ROTFL :-D ….

    "The Year in Carols"

    1. The Secretary of State Girl (to, "The Little Drummer Boy")
    2. Christmas in Illinois (To, "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas")
    3. The Recession Song (to, "It's Beginning to Look A Lot Like Christmas")
    4. Regular Joe the Plumber (To "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer")
    5. Away in a Hotel (to "Greensleeves")
    6. A-Rod's Kabbalah Holiday (To, "I Have A Little Dreidel")
    7. Words From Santa to Hannah Montana (to, "Oh Christmas Tree")
    8. Feliz Brangelina (To, "Feliz Navidad")

    http://tinyurl.com/55wy4w

  386. 386
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    When you say “face-to-face” did they come to your place?

  387. 387
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    The moderation filters are like the guided missile defence system on Magrathea – they take the occasional pot-shot to relieve the monotony. I have no idea why it picked on any of the comments that were put in the queue today.

  388. 388
    The Finnigans
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Finns - You rightly get slapped by William on a frequent basis for egregious misbehaviour which is only to be expected from a self-proclaimed Marxist revolutionary.

    yes, Diog, you are right again. Blooming hell, twice in a day.

    As an honourary member of the FARC revolutionary Party of the Knowledge Tree Branch of Machu Picchu, WB often told me to go and get FARC.

  389. 389
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    With unemployment and inflation likely to be higher next year..

    I agree unemployment will be higher but why inflation? To me that makes no sense at all given prices going down.

  390. 390
    Diogenes
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Mugabe is always good for a laugh. It would be hilarious if people weren’t dying.

    The cholera outbreak in Zimbabwe which has left hundreds dead was caused by the UK, an ally of Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe has said.

    Information Minister Sikhanyiso Ndlovu described the outbreak as a "genocidal onslaught on the people of Zimbabwe by the British".

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7780728.stm

  391. 391
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    This article suggest greece is a ready to go totally Feral

    maybe ‘73 all over again

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/13/athens-greece-riots

    “How police shooting of a teenage boy rallied the ‘€700 generation’”

  392. 392
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    384 Greensborough Growler I don’t agree with that assessment. While Rudd is seen as doing everything he can to alleviate unemployment he will be given credit for his efforts. Knowing Rudd he will be flat out all next year doing just that.
    You seem to think people will blame this government for all of the world’s economic ills. I don’t buy it.

  393. 393
    Glen
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    Julia wont be PM for the same reason Tanner isnt Treasurer…the ALP would be stupid to nominate a leader from the Left faction…unless they want to lose an election…Gillard is not a future leader of the ALP the most likely candidate to take over after Rudd is Fitzgibbon…Gillard wouldnt win an election even if she faced off Brendan Nelson.

  394. 394
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Glen

    Gillard wouldnt win an election even if she faced off Brendan Nelson.

    your on crack for sure

  395. 395
    Glen
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    ‘ you’re ‘ Gusface

  396. 396
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Turnbull thinks a budget is a profit and loss statement!!

    Well it is, but as any businessman or women knowns they have to spend money in order to position the business to make money!

    Bascially Rudd is position the business called Australia to overcome a global crisis, so the question for Malcolm is what is his business plan!!

    Someone ask does Turnbull really have a financial background when he acted in a position of legal, this is a good point but still if you are dealing with the financial sector you should have some idea what is happening.

    finance is one part of the economy that is rather straightforward to learn about.

  397. 397
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    When Julia is compared to Rudd as PPM she falls behind. However, when she is compared to any Liberal, she wins. I think Julia Gillard would make a fine Prime Minister, and a beloved one. That lady is coming on in leaps and bounds and so she should. It gives me great comfort to know that if Rudd fell under a bus we have real depth in the Labor Party, at all levels.

    By contrast the Libs and Nats seem like a loose coalition of total losers.

  398. 398
    Glen
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Gillard is a joke and she’s not a leader, just a cold hearted individual who is a closet socialist…no Australian would buy into that Bushfire…she wont lead the ALP because the ALP knows it cant win an election with a left faction leader….

  399. 399
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    I’m starting to see Julia Gillard has the ability to win an election, she has the ability to make decisions and is known has someone who can get the job done.

    She presents well, appears approachable and based on her parlianmently performances appears witty and is clearly very intelligent.

    Julia Gillard did very well to maintain her position in Lalor for it is a seat that is more middle class than the west of the west and in many ways was prime Howardland but Gillard was never seriously threatened.

    As was quoted Gillard knows how to operate in a mans world, remembering she is in the left faction the fact remains her biggest battles have been with her own faction and she has emerged victories over them.

    Julia Gillard is more electable than Lindsay Tanner for while I like Tanner he doesn’t have Gillard’s work history.

  400. 400
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    Glen!! I know many professional women who hold Gillard in high regard for sure she doesn’t come off as a dear mummy but as a professional women who knows how to operate and how to win an arguement.

  401. 401
    Glen
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    Approachable lol are u kidding approachable to a bunch of union bosses yes that’s approachable!

    Knowing how to operate in a mans world doesnt mean shes knows how to lead or discount the fact that her socialist ideas or not shared by the majority of Australians….

  402. 402
    Gusface
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    you’re ‘ Gusface

    and you are on crack

    whats your point?

  403. 403
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Glen!!

    Its funny you meantion being appeoachable to Union leaders, that is funny for I know for a fact that Julia Gillard is happy to disagree with Union leaders, they know when it comes to dealing with Julia that she is no push over!!

  404. 404
    Glen
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    That if Gillard cant get IR right by giving Unions more power than before and cant get the Education Revolution going because she muffed the Laptop policy and her history with buggering things up (Medicare Gold) she is vastly overated…

  405. 405
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Glen lets remember Julia Gillard stared down the Labor for Refugees, that group was made up with mostly fellow members of her own Left faction and yet Gillard was more than able to stick to her guns and won over them! that very issue could have split the ALP but she was able to steer that policy though the ALP!

  406. 406
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    You criticise Gillard using exaggerated, irrational terms Glen. That is a sure sign of a man who desperately hopes she doesn’t become PM because you know she would be very successful in keeping the Libs right where they are now.

  407. 407
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    IR! The major business groups are happy with the proposed I.R laws! if the laws are so bad for business then why is Malcolm allowing it too pass the senate

    Education! this is mostly a state issue and regardign the Laptops from my understanding the laptops are being rolled out

    Medicare Gold!! Yes that was a dogs policy which was invented by the Catholic Health service spokeman whos name escapes me for the moment.

  408. 408
    Glen
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Que Jumpers are coming in by the ship load thanks to Rudd’s laxed laws now thankyou Prime Minister!

    Gillard ruined Labor in 2004 with Medicare Gold.

    Gillard stuffed up the Laptop Policy which is a joke being such an underfunded policy.

    Gillard is an extremist by giving the Unions more power in Labours Fair Work Australia for Unions Bill.

    Gillard is loved by the media because shes a woman.

  409. 409
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    Ahh reading that post made me twitch. So much rubbish but I’ll let someone who can be bothered deal with it.

  410. 410
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    “runined”

    “stuffed”

    “extremist”

    Glen, what are they putting in your twisties down there at HQ!

  411. 411
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

    Que Jumpers are coming in by the ship load thanks to Rudd’s laxed laws now thankyou Prime Minister!

    Glen!! Australia will forver remain an attractive target for people who want a better life after all we are the best country in the world!! the numbers are still below that of 2000-01

    Gillard ruined Labor in 2004 with Medicare Gold.

    This policy was a dog’s policy but lets remember Mark Latham was a dud leader and the guy from the Catholic Health service should stick to running his health services rather than try and invent national health policy

    Gillard stuffed up the Laptop Policy which is a joke being such an underfunded policy.

    This policy is being rolled out, I don’t see the problem.

    Gillard is an extremist by giving the Unions more power in Labours Fair Work Australia for Unions Bill.

    I call on the Liberal Party to walk into the senate and block it if it is so bad, also may I point out that several leading business types alligned with the Liberal Party helped create the policy (Heather Rigout)

    Gillard is loved by the media because shes a woman.

    Loves the media for she is a pollywaffle.

  412. 412
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Que Jumpers are coming in by the ship load thanks to Rudd’s laxed laws now thankyou Prime Minister!

    Exaggeration 1

    Gillard ruined Labor in 2004 with Medicare Gold.

    No, Latham did that.

    Gillard stuffed up the Laptop Policy which is a joke being such an underfunded policy.

    From page 2 of the Liberal handbook of exaggerated criticisms I believe.

    Gillard is an extremist by giving the Unions more power in Labours Fair Work Australia for Unions Bill.

    Page 3

    Gillard is loved by the media because shes a woman.

    Same with Julie Glen? Of course you know this is total BS.

  413. 413
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    “Heather Rigout”

    I’m guessing that was a deliberate misspelling!

  414. 414
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    There are two jokes in Exhibition St!!

  415. 415
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Inner Westie!! No I thought that was how her name was spelt

  416. 416
    Glen
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Inner…Labour just footed the bill for the computers, not for the extra plugs, security. aircons/fans, maintenance and upkeep of the Laptops and so it is going to cost a hell of a lot more than Madam Julia said it would!

  417. 417
    ShowsOn
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Inner…Labour just footed the bill for the computers, not for the extra plugs, security. aircons/fans, maintenance and upkeep of the Laptops and so it is going to cost a hell of a lot more than Madam Julia said it would!

    WHAT! The government is spending money on computers!

    Why couldn’t they waste it on fridge magnets!

  418. 418
    ltep
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    It was an ill conceived idea to begin with but it was an election commitment so they will do what they can to achieve it in the best possible way.

  419. 419
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    and so it is going to cost a hell of a lot more than Madam Julia said it would!

    So you don’t want the Government to pay for it? You don’t agree with the policy? You can’t have it both ways.

  420. 420
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Why couldn’t they waste it on fridge magnets!

    Or on TV advertising selling their “unpopular” IR policy. 40 million sounds about right.

  421. 421
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Or on Crosby Textor advertising.

    Or on rainmaking machines

    Or on silk lined private jets

    or on ……

  422. 422
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    You’re right ltep, kids shouldn’t have the latest technology to help their learning. Give em slates I say.

  423. 423
    scorpio
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    Gary,

    They were good enough in Howard’s day!

  424. 424
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Does anyone else remember using an abacus at school?

  425. 425
    mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    I have a fair bit of experience of working with the health system therefore I want to address the issue of Medicare Gold, the problem with that policy was not that it in itself was a bad policy but due to the cynically nature in which our Health system is run and funded.

    The policy was open to abuse and therefore would have been a complete farce, the blame for this falls at the feets of State Governments and for Glen’s knowledge this include the Liberal Party Government lead by Jeff Kennett and his casemix model.

  426. 426
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    421 – How about a regional rorts program?

  427. 427
    Boerwar
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    MayFeral@346 and 347 (heh, heh)

    Read the link, for which much thanks. Humbling stuff. Am trying to rework my thoughts on Australia’s war in Afghanistan into the framework of that article. Very challenging.

  428. 428
    Boerwar
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    Glen @ 416

    Which is why the state governments got a bit shirty about it. They learned that they would be up for lots of extra bickies, and those bickies had to come from somewhere.

  429. 429
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    424 – I remember the slide rule.

  430. 430
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, me too. No one over 12 allowed on the slide.

  431. 431
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    430 – Good one Fulvio.

  432. 432
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Mayoferal @ 346 & 347, as with Boerwar, I was very impressed with the article and will be sending it off to a number of people. Many thanks.

  433. 433
    Boerwar
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Hmmm

    The, under the conservative government of Karamanlis, the foreign debt of Greece is equivalent to 91% of GDP, unrestrained lending by the banks has hamstrung possible government responses to the Crisis, and a big slab of Greece was burnt to the ground in uncontrolled wildfires. That is probably why the right wingers aren’t in the streets torching the place. They have done a much better job from inside their offices.

  434. 434
    dave
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    Glen wrote, inter alia

    “runined”

    “stuffed”

    “extremist”

    Poor old glen, sounding more and more like someone sitting on a large and pointy spike.

  435. 435
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Glen @ 408, while your persistence in representing the Tories is certainly to be admired, it’s these strange outbursts that screw up your efforts.
    For what it’s worth, I thought Malcolm Turnbull’s interview by Kerry O’Brien was woeful. Both himself indoors and myself said, this man doesn’t have much of a clue about the economy, and even less about being a politician.

  436. 436
    Gary Bruce
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    Typical Liberal response to Rudd’s infrastructure progam. Oh, they agree with it but don’t believe that it will create the number of jobs the government says it will. Once again agree but disagree.

  437. 437
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    At least the Infrastructure program is being funded now instead of the Liberal method of promise big ticket infrastructure spending before the election and then make it a non core promise when the funding was due.

  438. 438
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Gary Bruce, they clearly have a very cunning plan to shoot themselves in the foot, over and over and over. It reminds me of the joke about the red headed chick who goes to the doctor, saying she hurt all over her body, and demonstrating by poking her shoulder with her finger, and screaming; her knee, screams; her belly, moans and screams; her earlobe, whimpers and cries. The doctor says, “You’re not really a red head, are you?” “No, I’m a blond”. Doctor says, “You’ve got a broken finger.

  439. 439
    scorpio
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know what KR is going to do with himself next time he visits NY.

    A NEW York strip club made famous by Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is the latest victim of the global financial crisis, forced to close its doors.

    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24790712-953,00.html

  440. 440
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    Speaking of funding laptops …

  441. 441
    scorpio
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Or “pole” watching.

  442. 442
    dave
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    broad band ?

  443. 443
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    Or stimulus packages …

  444. 444
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Youse guys are sick

  445. 445
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    scorpio started it …

  446. 446
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    Whaddya want? A stimulous package. When do you want it? Anytime you can deliver it. And, BTW, lay off the s*xual appeal or otherwise of the female members of parliament, or the three legged cat gets it.
    Kerist, he’s bad at typing!

  447. 447
    Harry "Snapper" Organs
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    Pathetic, Inner Westie, just truly, deeply pathetic. Funny, though.

  448. 448
    scorpio
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Behind every cloud, there’s always a silver lining. Lets hope Rudd & Co can take advantage of it.

    ONE-stop childcare centres based on a revolutionary British model are being proposed to help keep the 241 unviable ABC Learning Centres open.

    The proposal - being worked on by a community childcare consortium including C&K in Queensland and the Bendigo Bank - would combine early childhood learning, health and family support services in one location.

    Similar centres have revolutionised childcare in Britain and were proposed by Prime Minister Kevin Rudd for the 2020 Summit.

    Centres combining family day care, child health and development and parenting support are on trial at Caboolture and Nerang, with facilities planned at Browns Plains and Cairns.

    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24792120-953,00.html

  449. 449
    scorpio
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    yeah, I agree Harry.

  450. 450
    ruawake
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

    Glen

    A serious question, did more “queue jumpers” arrive in 2008 or 2007?

    I bet you don’t find the answer to comfortable. :P

  451. 451
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Scorpio, I’d have a lot more faith in C&K being able to run childcare better than ABC Learning did. It got to the point in Brisbane a few years ago that children could hardly avoid the clutches of ABC Learning as they took over childcare centres in a mad frenzy. It was reminiscent of the Bond and Skase way of doing business.

  452. 452
    Frank Calabrese
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    William,

    I’m surprised you haven’t done a post on Westpoll which is 55-45 for Barnett, but with the main focus on Eric Ripper’s Preferred Premier rating of 12. Guess which bit made the bulk of the story ? :-(

  453. 453
    Fulvio Sammut
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Honeymoon, Frank, honeymoon.

  454. 454
    ruawake
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    I just watched Turnbull on 7.30 report online. My only comment is that he is not a politician and needs some serious media coaching.

    My bet is he will leave politics after the next election and become a commentator, a bit like Hewson. His attention span seems to be about 6 years.

  455. 455
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

    Wow, someone finally let Julie Bishop out of her cage.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/13/2445733.htm

  456. 456
    dave
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    As I said last night – allbull is a DUD !

  457. 457
    scorpio
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Oz,

    Reading that, it is clear that the Libs have absolutely “NO” idea how to operate in opposition without the benefit of a substantial PS back-up to lead them along the right track & do their thinking for them.

    But Ms Bishop says the Government needs to explain how it will pay for the works and provide evidence to back up its job creation figures.

    "The Government has said that it will create jobs but it hasn't provided any economic modelling or analysis or any evidence at all to prove its claims," she said.

    Aren’t they at all embarrassed when stuff like this gets published or comes out in current affairs programs.

    But the Federal Infrastructure Minister, Anthony Albanese, says the Opposition is ignorant of the details of the plan.

    He says all the projects have been fully costed and the Opposition has not looked at the policy.

    "If they bothered to look at the documents that we released yesterday, we released a 116-page document with comprehensive costings, including job estimates for each and every road and rail project - two pages on each with a specific job commitment for each project," he said.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/13/2445733.htm

  458. 458
    Winston
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    Must admit I’ve been surprised by Turnbull’s inability to perform given his intellect and capabilities. I can only conclude that he can’t cope with being in opposition. He may well make a better PM than an Opposition Leader. Fortunately he won’t get the chance. He doesn’t seem to have any idea of how to run an Opposition. I guess it’s the born to rule attitude. And I suspect Costello would have the same problem.

  459. 459
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    "If they bothered to look at the documents that we released yesterday, we released a 116-page document with comprehensive costings, including job estimates for each and every road and rail project - two pages on each with a specific job commitment for each project," he said.

    It seems to be pretty well documented to me.

    http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/department/publications/pdf/Nation_Building_electronic.pdf

  460. 460
    Oz
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Winston, I keep hearing about Turnbull’s apparent intellect from a number of people but I didn’t see it when he was Enviro Minister and I don’t see it now.

  461. 461
    Inner Westie
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Here’s the beginnings of a list of Opposition Leaders who pundits have claimed would have performed better as Prime Minister:

    Kim Beazley
    Mark Latham (”better” = “taken us on a more thrilling joy ride” in this case)
    John Hewson
    .
    .
    .

    And here’s the beginnings of a list of Opposition Frontbenchers who I claim would have performed better as Gold Coast opal salesmen:

    Christopher Pyne
    .
    .
    .

  462. 462
    polyquats
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    I wonder how Julie thought they were going to build roads and rail lines without labour.

  463. 463
    Albert Ross
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Winston, I keep hearing about Turnbull’s apparent intellect from a number of people but I didn’t see it when he was Enviro Minister and I don’t see it now.

    I agree. That bald headed bloke is a completely useless dimwit. There must be something in the water cooler in the Enviro Min’s office water cooler.

  464. 464
    steve
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    This latest effort by Julie Bishop seems to show she is too lazy to read the documents relevant to her portfolio. It has been perfected as a tactic in the past by the Queensland Opposition who up until tonight proudly wore the title of “the best resourced but laziest opposition in the history of Queensland” but I think this gaffe from Julie bishop as Shadow Treasurer surpasses even their lazy efforts.

  465. 465
    Albert Ross
    Posted Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 10:12 pm | Permalink

    Why couldn’t they waste it on fridge magnets!

    And mouse pads. I have three or four Howar