Light holiday reading:
• “Carlton’s lone classical liberal”, Andrew Norton, weighs in on Liberal hyperbole over third party political campaigns. New Mayo MP Jamie Briggs reckons these to be a “cancer in our democracy” due to the efforts of GetUp! and the ACTU at the last election. Briggs argues that “Australians are entitled to know who is behind the campaigns, how much is being spent and where the money is coming from”, evidently having failed to notice that such groups are indeed required to provide annual disclosure of receipts, expenditure and debts. However, in an interesting discussion at Larvatus Prodeo, Norton also argues that lowering the donation disclosure threshold from $10,000 to $1000 (as proposed by a bill currently before a Senate committee due to report on June 30) could theoretically catch independent political blogs in a “massive compliance net” thanks to a loose definition of “persons or organisations expressing views by any means on candidates or election issues”. Elsewhere, The Australian’s Janet Albrechtsen tugs at the heart strings by complaining the disclosure amendments are designed to cut donations to the Liberal Party (from which you can readily infer why the Howard government used its Senate majority to jack the threshold up from $1500 to $10,000 in the first place). More substantially, she argues that “the nature of third-party campaigns in Australia is such that if we ban or cap donations (except by individuals) and allow third-party campaigns by unions to continue unabated, the political field is skewed against one side: the conservatives” – particularly in light of government plans to scrap tax deductibility of party donations while maintaining it for union dues and levies.
• “Dotcom millionaire” Evan Thornley has made himself popular in Labor circles by pulling the plug on his political career on the eve of his anticipated promotion to the Victorian state cabinet. The talk around Thornley was that he viewed his state political career as a stepping stone to federal politics via Simon Crean’s seat of Hotham, beyond which his ambitions were apparently without limit. His entirely unheralded decision to “pursue opportunities outside of political life” has inevitably fuelled all manner of speculation, most of it involving his financial wellbeing. It has also created a vacancy for his upper house seat for the Southern Metropolitan region. The Age reports that the new upper house system instituted at the last election “has created an anomaly for Labor, as party rules do not specify how preselection for an upper house vacancy should be conducted”:
Party sources said the anomoly was expected to be tackled by rule makers in May 2009 before preselections began in earnest for the 2010 election. But Mr Thornley’s shock departure – which sources from both major factions of Victorian Labor described as the most bizarre incident they had ever witnessed in politics – could force the anomaly to be dealt with sooner. While some within Labor believe the rules offer no guidance over preselection, others say the spirit of preselection processes in the lower house should also be adopted for the upper house. Under that scenario, Mr Thornley’s replacement in the Southern Metropolitan electorate would be decided 50:50 by a ballot of ALP branch members and a central selection panel. Many expect Labor’s national executive to ultimately choose his replacement but all agreed it was too early to speculate on the names of likely candidates.
A commenter at Andrew Landeryou’s VexNews writes:
The Left were promised Thornley’s spot but they agreed not to insist as Thornley was then non aligned. Thornley then joined Labor Unity. They left will claim they are entitled to fill Thornley’s vacancy. Labor Unity will most likely want it and there will be an internal facional brawl like Kororoit. Then Mr Dearricott’s non-aligned group will claim their right to the vacancy. A strong tip tonight is that (former Brimbank mayor) Natalie Suleyman is a favourite for the position.
Another hopeful is said to be Dick Gross, former Municipal Association of Victoria president and Port Phillip councillor defeated in recent elections in a “resident revolt over his support for the St Kilda triangle development”. There is also the question of the political future of Theo Theophanous, charged on Christmas Eve with rape. An end to Theophanous’s political career would create another upper house vacancy in Northern Metropolitan. In lieu of Evan Thornley, Theophanous’s position as Industry and Trade Minister has been filled by Martin Pakula, previously best known for his failed preselection bid against Simon Crean in Hotham ahead of the last federal election.
• Michelle Grattan of The Age reports that the Victorian Liberals are “set to reluctantly give the Nationals the number two spot on a joint Senate ticket for the 2010 election”. This would continue an agreement initiated after the 1987 double dissolution election giving the Nationals the unwinnable fourth and safe second seats at alternating elections. The party’s seat in the Senate has been held since 1993 by Julian McGauran, who quit the party for the Liberals in January 2006. One possible explanation for the move was that he did not expect the Liberals would continue with the existing joint ticket arrangement, which as Grattan explains is widely opposed within the party. It had long been thought that the Nationals had been able to negotiate the joint ticket partly because the McGauran family helped delivered it preferences from the Democratic Labor Party, whom they had assisted in legal action to prevent its deregistration. The Nationals’ apparent success in keeping the arrangement going might suggest otherwise. However, another possibility is that McGauran thought his prospects of winning Liberal preselection less unlikely than those of keeping his place with the Nationals. McGauran had an uncomfortably narrow preselection win ahead of the 2004 election over Darren Chester, now the member for Gippsland, and his family’s clout might have been further weakened since by brother Peter’s departure from politics.
• Labor’s Mark Dreyfus, chairman of the House of Representatives Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, says he hopes the government will “soon” announce a non-binding plebiscite to test opinion on a republic before the federal election.
• Robert Taylor of The West Australian has an interesting overview of the new entrants to the WA state parliament.
UPDATE (3/1/09): Malcolm Mackerras reviews the Queensland state redistribution and offers his prediction for the election to be held some time this year, namely an 11 seat Labor majority from an even split on two-party preferred.
619 Comments
From previous at #379
Amigo GG, the fifth Beatles disappeared without a trace. Surely you cannot be that cruel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zune3RfO5w
Poor Briggs and Albrechtsen. Someone get them a tissue.
The caps should never have been raised in the first place, too many cashed up big business types donating often and scraping in under the threshold.
William and I obvously cann’t be away at same time as Site just becomes mayham
Happy new year to my short list of mates and long list of enemies , may I bring cheer to your 2009
New year ‘awards’
….2nd lowest point was not just our Cricketerrs losing , but putting up with that tony Greig pretending to be so so very very disappointd , does anyone actualy like that guy or he is “th Ron of Channel 9″
….highest point was our astute of astuteness Ruawake:
“Ruawake #305
”Hey Diog, did you realise Brisbane has been on level 5 water restrictions for a few years?
Geez you make some silly statements. I let your recent vile comment on CLL go through to the keeper, but for a supposedly educated person it is amazing how wRONg you are, so OFTEN.”
………just gold Ruawake , and added to ‘diog you ar wRONg’ tabernacles file
…….worthy comendation…goes to th lovely Vera and those days on th SCG hill “as one of th boys” …and probaly distracting those pommie batsmen with your good looker looks , and perhaps sweet words of encouragements to thems
…and worstest lowest point point …..a draw…Bush ‘hope th Israeli’s avoid hitting innocent civilians” …draws with Obama epitapgh ” if I was living as an Israeli with rockets being fired by Hamas I’d want to relatiate”
Bush and Obama…you ar pathetic…. Its not your SOS’s , its yous double standards
ronism , if this iis th 21st Century internet age of knowledge communicated world wide to all , then google has a webster filter deleting all commonsense for ’spin’
So if Indonesia takes 1/2 of Brissie , and part of Q’ld and breaks it into enclaves , Indonesian and Queenslander…and 99% of worlds UN (as it has done for 40 years) says to Indomesia to withdraw immediately from queensland no preconditions , but USA says its ok four Indonesia to stay in Queensland to protect your security…and then Queensalnders fire rockets at Indonesians to force Indonesians out …yep per USA , th Queenslanders ar terrorists…USA just keeps arming & financing th Indonesians , ansd calls Queenslanders terorists
And posters here want oz to influense th USA on CC targets , reely ?….yet Gazza says USA does what it wants for its own benefit despite th UN or any other other Copuntrys views on th Palestiniens …posters want us to influense th USA on CC targets by being th econamic bunny , when Obama says his policy is ZERO CC targets…yep zero reductions from 1990 levels …….well Gaza is th reel World…….or is it DOHA/WTA…….meanwhile th Palestiniens wonder about th land of Liberty cause there’s no change they can belkieve in …Rudd understands th reel World , and for us
From previous thread:
Malcolm Bligh Turnbull is not in anyway related to Bligh of Rum Rebellion fame. His family were supporters of Bligh and have traditionally given the eldest son of each generation the second name Bligh.
Anna Bligh (Qld Premier) on the other hand, is a direct descendant of Bligh.
Briggs’ comments re 3rd party campaigns are footy fan one-eyed.
Remember the adverts by the Business Council at the last election against nasty unionists and in support of the COALition?
You know the ones which they had to pull off air cos they featured disreputable types as actors?
And I don’t know if you city slickers are aware but in my rural electorate the union for farmers, the Farmers’ Fed., saturated local rural TV with ads in the last week or two of the election directed against the ALP and particularly aimed at the ALP ‘robbing’ the future fund set aside for the country folk.
And, of course, there was that mob who spent umpteen millions of taxpayers’ money in the leadup up to the election telling us how wonderful the COALition Howard government was. The Howard govt. I mean.
Cuts two ways Jamie.
The most disturbing aspect of the cabinet papers released after 30 years is the loan to Woodsreef Asbestos.
$1.4 million “confidential loan” to a company that walked away from the mine 4 years later. 30 years on this site is still not rehabilitated.
Who was Minister for Trade in 1978? Doug Anthony. Who’s electorate was the mine in? Ian Sinclair’s.
National Party Pork was alive and well 30 years ago.
More to the point, will Obama turns out to be the “Princess Diana” and Michelle the “Dodi” of the heavy hitting magazines like New Idea, Dolly, Women Weekly, People etc.
We all know what happened to Princess Diana. But it’s OK, we got Hillary in the wing.
sorry, the link:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16975.html
Yeah, good idea. Let’s just can Obama before he gets started. How much fun is this eh?
happy new year
just watched Nine news
Presenter says; how would you like living next door to a Guantanamo Bay terrorist?!!!
Then had Talcum all hairy chested ranting in a very dramatic raised voice , he sounded and looked so phony, this guy would make a terrible actor (unlike amigos’ freind Oils Obi).
At end of story said Govt refused to comment despite nine’s requests (poor dittums) but then went on to say acting PM julia gillard released a statement saying the USA’s request would most likely be refused due to Australia,s strict security laws.
Story and way it was presented brought back nasty memories of the Howard years of playing on racist fears and predjuces for political gain. Made my skin crawl and was a sober reminder of what life could be like if St Kev wasn’t here to help.
Reflecting on 2008 from SA a couple of things stand out. Idiocy 1 was the decision by SA govt to sell various State buildings so that the level of State debt will be below the magic 90% of some measure that the Ranting Agencies use to help decide AAA rating for State. How selling buildings and then paying rental to private owners helps a State’s economic position is a mystery of the first order. How Ranting Agencies Standard and Poors and Moodys retain any credibility is a related mystery.
Then there was the highlight of suggestions by “back benchers” that Treasurer Kevin Folley should replace Rann as Premier and Folley emerging a few days later after going AWOL to say he should have acted earlier to squash such silly talk. Why bother.
It’s all about perception. It will be hard for MHS and the Liberals to say Rann Labor has mismanaged the economy or the GFC if Rann Labor can say they brought SA up to an AAA-rating and kept it there.
“Let’s just can Obama before he gets started. How much fun is this eh?”
Tell th Palestiniens its fun for Obama to support Israeli air raids
Tell th IPCC its fun for Obama to support zero 1990 emission targets
This is this guys public position Using that logic , then Turnbull should not be criticised for any of his public positions either
Ron, once you type your words correctly, then we might consider taking you seriously and respond to your points.
The US won’t support the Palestinians Ron no matter who is in power in the US, not even Hilliary.
My understanding that a zero emissions target is in fact an improvement on what they are emmitting now. Still a lot better than the alternative.
By all means criticise policy but let’s leave the name calling and inane personal assassination to the right wing blogs shall we and above all let’s give the bloke a go before writing him off.
Actually Bob, Ron’s posts have improved considerably and he deserves credit for that.
I think there are about 60 people in Guantanamo that the US has decided have no case to answer, (even though they have been locked up for the best part of a decade).
Some of these are citizens of China, unfortunately mistaken for muslim terrorists by the US (but not by the people who recieved the bounty for nabbing them).
The Chinese Govt. does not really like these guys, does not want them and is actively disuading other countries from accepting them.
My view is its an American problem, re-settle them in “The Home of the Brave” and let them use the US legal system to its full effect.
“The US won’t support the Palestinians Ron no matter who is in power in the US, not even Hilliary.
My understanding that a zero emissions target is in fact an improvement on what they are emmitting now. Still a lot better than the alternative.”
I missed out reductons from zero emmissions , so Obama’s zero reductons emmissions policy guarantees irreversible CC …past th tipping point with all th dire results Now people here criticise there own little world player oz for 55 , yet not criticiese th world leader So I call both on bama’ public policy and th unwillingness to criticise his policy but criticise Rudd , pathetic
Now with Palestiniens just because no one in USA will suport them does not make it right Hell no it does not , its a disgrace so I call that Obama position also pathetic Also do not know why there was a referense is to Hillary , as if that diminishs my case at all Anyway unlike peoples here too afraid to attack oily , i actualy did many times severely criticise Hillary also on her Israeli policy also despite chanse she may later follow Billys 1999 negotiatons lead also Finaly Gore for Palestiniens was better And historicaly only one to get close to fair dinkum deal was Billy Clinton…95% of all land with Juralesm & refugee ‘return’ last mssing piece biut 20th Jan 2000 came first…thats Bush’s first day
ruawake
I think you’re on to something there.
Obviously it would be easy for the US to take 60 inmates who have had no charges laid against them. You have to wonder why the US is opening up a can of worms with it’s allies by asking them to share what is a tiny load? Is it trying to diffuse the responsibility for stuffing up so badly or do the US want to avoid multiple embarrassing court cases under US Law which would all end up in the Supreme Court with very unpredictable?
Ron
1. Obama has only just put together his Environmental team which is headed by a Nobel Prize winning physicist with expertise in renewable energy. He hasn’t even taken over yet and certainly doesn’t have a “white paper” equivalent yet. We’ll have to wait and see what he comes up with in power. What is said before an election about Climate Change isn’t necessarily reflected in the end policy.
2. I definitely recall the Israel-Palestine situation being Hillary’s problem. I’m glad I don’t have to defend the indefensible with that one.
Good Luck Hillary!!
Ron, you may disagree with Obama’s stance on Israel but that’s been a US policy since moses was a lad and is not about to change soon. It would be a very brave boy indeed to change that policy. No president has.
You may recall I supported Rudd’s ETS policy so I’m being consistent here.
Vera at 10, channel 10’s coverage was no better. Didnt include ANY response from the government, but had some “ordinary aussies” from the shops who werent pleased, Turnbull )of course, and, of all people, Habib saying something like you dont know what “those people” have done- huh??
Ron
This exemplifies the problem in Israel. I’d seen a few polls saying that the Israelis wanted peace more than their Government a while ago, but the Israelis are fully behind the latest strikes. Only 2.5% think worse of Barak after the strikes.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24866339-5005962,00.html
Gary , you will find that Billy Clinton was first to break past USA policy on Israel by being more even handed , did pressuring israel to negotiate , in hisd first term had PM Rabbin & Peress and Arafat to White House face to face , Oslo Accords , didn’t work , kept trying pressuring both sides unlike normal USA policy & ended up with PM Barak and Arafat to Whitwhouse in 1999 deeling right up to actual day of Bush’s inauguarton on a ‘deal’…now as said they of to 95% of land agreed with 2 sticky wickets left & run out of time …now one was division of Juruleslesm Believe but for Florida chads in 2000 electon , Gore as POTUS wuld hav finished a deal
Now up to June , Obama said Juralesm was on table , a Palestinien reequirement , so it should its there capital East Jurelesm But in July Obama changed policys & told J.wish lobby publicly Jurelesm is off table & now follows normal previous (except Billy Clinton) USA position on Israel generaly So my criticism is there is a template , not Hillarys that I’ve severely criticised , but Billys
Now as for CC , as I said zero reductons is irreversibe CC , so its reel pathetic policy I know you’ve been consistent on rudds ETS so that point in my blog was not too you at all actualy , but to people who criticise littl World country oz’s 5% , but won’t criticise th USA ’s potus to be’s policy
There will be NO CC mitigation unless th USA so decides and USA will decide alone no matter what any other country says , and Obama’s USA zero reductons is zero CC mitigaton…is reely Bush’s keep polluting policy with fluff
Where is th condemnation of these Israeli war crimes against innocent civilians Aeroplanes flying over th most densely populated place on earth , just dropping big bombs …and there is NO anti aircraft defenses
Where ar all those that criticised USA attacking Iraq , but silent on this atrcoity IF ANY another country did what Israel is doing against anyone but Palestiniens th liberal press wuld be screaming blue murder
Whole Arab league hav offered full peace and recognition of Israel in return for them doing what UN has repeatedly tolsd Israel to do , withgdraw to its own borders Israels’ policy and USA’s is a disgrace and indefensable totaly
And even on strategic policy slant its a flawed Israel policy as well Talk about growing th seeds of hate of West and terorism , USA policy guarantees that outcome…and bet majority of peoples of Saudi , and Kuwait and Egypt tink so to…what happens if they overthow there despotic poro USA Govts and do a Shah of Iran…oil $500 a barrel
ruawake @ 6
Nice pick up. I hadn’t realized the Nationals had diversified from coal into asbestos. I would appreciate a link, if you have it.
Not enough (improvement, that is).
Innocent or not, folk who have spent ten years getting the treatment of G Bay are probably close to being insane.
Unless I have it wrong, Australia, as an ally in an illegal and monstrous war, was a strong and vociferous supporter of G Bay, extreme rendition and various practices that normal human beings would instantly recognise as torture. Legalists such as Robert Hill, now our ambassodor to the UN, could, of course find legal reasons why it wasn’t really torture at all.
Even though we have a successor government in place, Australia must therefore bear some responsibility for fixing the mess.
G Bay inmates may or may not be terrorists. We actually don’t know what they were. We do know what they are: people who have been tortured and held without trial in an extra-judicial system. We know enough to know that the snatching was quite arbitrary. If they are terrorists, let the US judicial system get on try them. We probably know that no normal civilian court in the US would find them guilty of anything. The evidence is far too tainted.
In his desperation Turnbull has turned again to disgraceful dog whistling. He is smart enough to know what he is doing. The sooner the Liberals turf him out, the better. Perhaps Peter Costello might have the social nous to avoid the dog whistling.
As for the Rudd Government, I hope that it is not ducking behind the same sort of legalistic cover as Hill employed to avoid upsetting the rascist elements of our society.
I am unsure of the ’strict security’ laws which would prevent Australia from taking people who have been tortured and abused for ten years without due legal process or trial. These folk are refugees whom we have helped create. We should do our bit to right a hideous wrong. So, proportionately, should the US and the other allies.
“Even though we have a successor government in place, Australia must therefore bear SOME responsibility for fixing the mess.”
We never renditioned We don’t hav Gittmo , its a US problam I’d take Habbibs security advice as well , don’t take them ,
There’s at least one positive to come out of the GFC. Not everyone has lost their sense of humour.
http://blogs.news.com.au/cubefarmer/index.php/news/comments/banker_bashing_could_be_a_new_sport/
A number of other good quotes there also.
“Not enough”
Well clearly you hav absolutely no credible defenses for israel’s bombing behavour nor a Potus to be’s CC zero emmissions reductions policy , but presumably would like to be able to or ar reluctant to agree with me…what a devils choise
If only the media in this country could put forward as honest an appraisal as this occasionally.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/opinion/30herbert.html?em
and still almost 46% just voted for another Republicon POTUS which is stagering
And on that Japan Banking story , just wonder how deep is hole of GFC as we may not hv seen bottom yet
Scorpio
Thank you. Nice.
Ron
Welcome back.
Thanks Scorp @32, the article in the NYT was a good review of the lowlights of the Bush2 era. That the lasting image of his end of days will be an unrestrained Arab throwing shows at him is probably appropriate, obviously ironic, and says something complicated about the ‘freedom’ he helped to bring to Iraq (free to die in poverty in a violent, dysfunctional state, but once again free to throw shoes at our leaders – weird…).
Interested in William’s lead in story about right wing complaints over Get Up etc. So freedom of speech is an attack on democracy? Interesting, especially coming from someone who often writes an opinion piece in a newspaper. Should op-eds be illegal too? Of course not – how else can people rich enough to own newspapers influence public opinion? The trouble with those dashed bloggers is that they may be people without Old Money undermining the power base of The Elite. Aweful
I won’t dignify Norton or Briggs comments with a click on hs blog, other than to say the hypocracy is glaring, and the over the top reaction shows the defensiveness of someone who knows their side is losing.
Ron 33
Economists I read seem to feel we may have seen the worst of the GFC in the banking industry. However, the next thud might be many of those private equity funds, who don’t have the same reporting rules, but must have lost billions. Sooner or later they will have to fess up. Of course the “real world” fallout from the GFC will cntinue through this year. Recovery by 2010 if the western world can get a few initiatives moving. The US will take longer.
Ron @ 25
I suspect that the Israelis want to separate the majority of Gazans from supporting Hamas. If so, it would be self-defeating for them to kill lots of Gazans. They are clearly trying to kill lots of Hamas persons, the Hamas ability to organise, and to destroy Hamas physical infrastructure. I have sort of missed the latest counts but the Israelis have probably delivered four hundred or more explosions in Gaza.
With about 2-3000 Gazan casualities from perhaps 400+ explosions, the Israelis are clearly trying to avoid killing civilians.
Whether the Israelis are right to kill lots of Hamas persons, to destroy what is essentially governance infrastructure of Gaza and incidentally kill many civilians, is another issue.
G’day Boerwar
Hope you’ve got some water there since last xmas I understand humanitarian view you put on gittmo guys , but feel in one way USA needs to wear responsibility for what it sowed with renditions , also in that Group one wuld assume there ar innocents and bad guys …now innocents could staying in US get relief in US justice system outside of militarey tribunals…whilst baddies (which would be reely unknown to our intel) should also go thru US justice system & may be found innocent also , but goodness we ar not equipped to handle such unknown baddie people and as Habbib a Gittmo guy himself did say tonite there ar reel security issues & suggested don’t take them
Malcolm Mackerras reviews the Queensland state redistribution and offers his prediction for the election to be held some time this year, namely an 11 seat Labor majority from an even split on two-party preferred.
Socrates
“Ron 33 Economists I read seem to feel we may have seen the worst of the GFC in the banking industry.”
My concern is th prime not sub prime area , USA housing prices declined on average from 500,000 to 260,000 from to 2007 compared to july-Sept 2008 period , before USA main econamy started to feel downturns
Then there is a world wide squeeeze on credit itself even bank to bank , with most Countrys Govts already putting in alot of ‘bailout’ monies Then there is further risk of say USA printying money with hypo inflation down tack
Then yes those private equity companies , believe there is big bad losseses there to come Then unemployment is going to rise in th West irespective asung less Govt revenue & more welfare costs to cash stapped econamys so my GFC thoughrts may not be majority but feel winds ar not good
There was a frog who wanted to get across the River Jordan. But he was afraid to because the seagulls would spot him and catch him before he got across.
Along came a scorpion.
‘Hello Frog. I want to get across the river. I could ride on your back and protect you from the seagulls. Would you carry me across?’
‘How can I trust you not to sting me to death?’ asked the frog.
‘Why would I do that? I would drown,’ replied the scorpion.
‘OK’, said the frog, ‘That makes sense, we both win.’
So, the scorpion got onto the frogs back and the frog started swimming across.
Half way, the scorpion stings the frog, which starts to die.
‘Why did you do that?’ asked the frog. Now we will both die.
‘Because this is the Middle East.’
“the Israelis are clearly trying to avoid killing civilians.”
well th latest one ton bomb landed on an apartment building (as intended) being th home of a Hamas leader It demolished th apartment buiding …and th Hamas leader…it also killed 7 other members of his family including his wives and four children One day before killed 4 out of a guys 5 little girls , he lived Further dropping bombs on unarmed civilian houses in most populated place on earth guarantees civilian deaths I don’t tink trying to avoid killing civilians has any credibility….its just ’spin’ for US consumpton & conscience
oh dear me, I agree with ron at 43, god help me….
sorry that should have read:
o dere mee, eye aggree wit run at $#, godde elp meee…
I think that if they did not care about killing civilians they would have killed many, many more.
Boerwar 45, of course they care about killing ‘civilians’ – but even though they are rather clinical in their execution, Ron is right, they must know that in heavily populated Gaza they will notch up more ‘collateral’ casualties than they will ‘targets’, and they are obviously comfortable with that. Are you?
I hate to shoot down BOTH of Williams inductees (Norton and Briggs) in his intro , but on reflecton am going to
they hav both produced red herrings for there opposing sides ANYONE an still donate , anyone…and to whoever …and as much as they like All thats seemed to hav changed is level at whcih discloure occurs
Like now at 10K limit before you get fessed up to publics …you’ve got 6 states and 2 territories , and theoreticaly you’ve got a Lib and Nats Party in each (did anyway)…so thats 160,000 per family member you could prev donate before anyone publicly knew you donated now mif th lovely lady of house also donated plus 3 adult kids ….thats 800,000 a family potential without disclosure ….excluding all th nieces and uncles …instead of with a 1K limit for disclosure being 80,000 per family potential Now perhaps thats what Briggs is worried about
Its called transparency is better democracy I’d hav thought
And suggesting a politcal blog site is somehow caught by legislation as a campaign advertising medium is naive
now hope Faukner alo looks at extending close off dates for registering to vote , and looks at growth of those pre polls (especialy how they ar ‘managed” within retirement etc places , and who sends them out (should be AEC only) etc
Pica @ 46
No. I can’t see a justification for it. There is no moral justification for putting yourself in a situation of taking people’s land and then having to kill some of them in order to maintain a ‘peaceful’ status quo. Australia did it routinely in relation to Aboriginal lands from 1788 until 1927 (Coniston massacre).
Given that, though, I think the Israelis are being careful to avoid killing civilians where they can, knowing that with Hamas mixed up with civilians, some civilians will be killed.
It is not in their self-interest to kill civilians.
“It is not in their self-interest to kill civilians.”
but they a happy to continue doing so and knowingly do so …in order to kill some Hamas leaders …without regard to greater civilian deaths than Hamas deaths in Worlds most densely populated area
And I might add Hamas is a democraticaly elected Govt of a UN deemed sovereign land
And furthermore to do so as occupiers of non israeli land according to 99% of th worlds UN nations , and against 40 years of UN resulutions to unconditionaly withdraw
Whatever else might be said about the Gaza conflict, it seems to me that “world’s most densely populated area” is hyperbole. The Gaza Strip has a population density of 4118/km2 – Gaza City’s would appear to be a bit under 9000. This is considerably lower than many cities listed here, the highest of which is Dhaka with 42,752. If you want to go with countries, Singapore has 6336. Hong Kong is about the same.
Ron @ 49
Some Israelis might be ‘happy’ with what is happening. But there are many Israelis, but not a majority, who do not support what is happening.
Just to get the wording right, I think that the Israeli Government believes that it is not in the self-interest of Israel to kill more Gazan civilians than it has to in order to achieve its primary objective, which is to kill enough of Hamas leaders, followers and infrastructure to enable an alternative, cowed, leadership to assume control in Gaza.
A corollary of this is that it is important not to kill more civilians than can be avoided because civilian acquiesence will be required in the long run.
It is therefore in the interests of Hamas to over-cook the egg on the number of civilian casaualties (and to claim that the Israeli Government deliberately kills civilians) and for the Israel government ot over-cook the egg on the avoidance of civilian deaths and the introduction of humanitarian aid. It is why Israel complains that Hamas hides amongst civilians in order to increase civilian casualities. It is why Hamas does so.
Like all violent conflicts, it is a spin meisters’ paradise.
It may also be that the timing of trying to achieve the Israeli objective has more to do with the looming election in Israel and the looming inaugeration of Obama but it may also be tied in with the formal end of the cease fire.
William
Thank you for the interesting link.
Hyperbole aside and per square km concentrations aside, if you bomb a high-rise apartment block, you are basically bombing a very high concentration of people.
Message to Hamas: If you are a leader (and in particular one who has urged the resumption of suicide bombing) and you live in a high rise apartment block, Israel is willing to destroy the apartment block and all the civilians in it, to kill you.
Message to civilians: ditto.
William at number 50 wrote:
They mustn’t be talking about numerical density.
Ron 43
You are absolutely right. I remember reading some (rather grim) stuff on the capabilities of the weapons back in the first Gulf War (91) when this whole “collateral damage” meme started. When you allow for the potential inaccuracy of the weapons, and the lethal range of the blast, dropping a one tonne bomb, guided or not, into an urban area pretty much guarantees innocent deaths. You could easily kill somene 500 metres away. I would wonder aloud if current Israeli practice would meet the coalitions “rules of engagement” in Iraq or Afghanistan. I doubt it.
With the new Israeli election coming up, I presume Livni is trying to appear tough to appease the hard-line right vote in Israel?
Ron – further on the GFC
I just found another interesting source, which contains some interestign charts. Number three is most interesting/disturbing because it indicates the risk fo a “second wave” of sub-prime defaults in 2010. This is something Obama will have to deal with fast – giving mortgage holders more security so they have less reason to walk away from their homes. I still think we will have started to recover then (2010) but who knows for the US? The rest of the world may have to learn to get along without the US (economy) for a while. Maybe time to look at longer term projects here, and more trade with India and China.
As an aside, I have found the GFC difficult to understand compared to previous recessions, precisely ebcause so much information is missing. Because the CDO/CDS regime was not regulated adequately, there has not been adequate disclosure of risk or even actual losses. So you reach a conclusion you think is rational based on official data, then find out a few months later that it is incorrect because of embarrassing facts various banks have been sitting on.
The Madoff scam is the latest example. In an industry that runs into trillions it is not that big a drama in itself. But how could it be undiscovered for so long? It makes official US SEC figues look worthless. Multiple persons must have either colluded or failed oversight duties for it to happen. I do not believe the “it was just Madoff” story. I remember talking to a friend who worked in the ta office after Brian Maher of “Bottom of the Harbor Scheme” fame was jailed. He said that several others had also been more quietly jailed, and that it was almsot impossibel for one person to set up such frauds without the knowing help of (at least) a lawyer, a banker and an accountant
Doh! Ron that link is here – see chart 3
http://financialranks.com/?p=76
RE: Queensland.
The fact that Mackerras predicts a Labor win should give the LNP heart.
Besides that, so few seats have changed hands since 2001 and the TPP has been relatively static. I have a feeling there is a serious swing building up due to pent up voter discontent and it may just be enough to tip the LNP over the edge.
Patrick, I wonder if Mackerras picked Labor to win the last 3 Queensland elections. I’m tipping he did and so I’m tipping he’s three from three. Not a bad record that.
Had a look at the latest Newspoll?
Mackerras’s prognostications remind me of the tribe in Africa that prayed for rain every single day during a terrible drought . After two years it finally rained and they credited God for their good fortune.
IE: he’s wrong most of the time, but he’s gotta be right occasionally because Labor either wins or loses.
Ah, so Mackerras never picks the Libs. Is that your argument Patrick? Hence he must be right sometimes? Again, I’m willing to bet that is incorrect.
An accurate prediction by Mackerras here well out from the election.
http://www.ozpolitics.info/blog/2007/02/21/malcolm-mackerras-double-defeat/
Mackerras has correctly picked the result of every federal election since at least 1990, including 1993 which most people got wrong. At state level – yes, he probably has tipped Labor to win most or every time in the last 10 years or so. Silly him.
Ron I totally agree over the situation in the middle east. As I said in the last thread, I am completely unbiased, open minded and independent.
Israel has crossed the line. They are a DISGRACE!
A real concern for you Patrick is Mackerras’s last Queensland election prediction.
“Malcolm Mackerras: Labor will hold on, just”
He got that wrong.
http://www.mumble.com.au/queensland/20060817_mack_oz.htm
In September 2006, the result was 59 seats for Labor, 17 for the Nationals, eight for the Liberals, four independents and one seat for One Nation.
Mackerras indeed gets things wrong occasionally, but this idea that he always does so in favour of Labor hasn’t the slightest foundation in reality. Indeed, it seems his last celebrated failure was calling the 1987 election for the Coalition during early counting.
That’s in Australia, anyway – in 2004 he let his opposition to the Iraq war get the better of him and tipped Kerry to easily defeat Bush.
I would contribute money to supply Palestine with the same quantity of weapons. They can both have it out once and for all, or they can have peace. In the end you will get peace.
The way things are at present, you will NEVER have peace.
Here’s an interesting read on Rudd and the economic past – http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24815449-7583,00.html
I’d say Ergas had a fight with the wife before writing that.
That article from Ergas was lifted from here by the way, not that that makes any difference one way or the other.
http://www.greenwhiskers.com.au/
Israel care about killing innocent civilians!
And Santa Clause has just had his once yearly shave for next Christmas.
Williams chart shows Gaza th 16th most denseley populated city on earth , not no 1
So when you drop one ton bombs on th 16th most dense populated city on earth , you ar knowingly and deliberately killing numerous inocent civilians so to kill one Hamas person
That is a war crime under th UN , its premeditated mass murder of civilian children
BTF , what gives th invader Israel th right to assassinate Hamas leaders anyway
In 2006 , Israel over 3 weeks repeatedey bombed th soivereign & democratic Country of Lebanon back to th stone ages killing thousands of innocent civilians over th death of 3 solders
This is 21st Centry barbarians , invaders …with Israel ignoring every UN resolution since 1967 to withdraw Th Palestiniens problam is they ar muslims instead of Roman Catholics….and there’s no Saudi oil wells there So we just pick & chose which UN resulution we and th West take notice of , and and just where is th Worlds liberal progressive Media’s condemnation and standards …just silense , whilst bombs rain
Ron who broke the cease fire?? who fired first???
It wasn’t Israel it was Hamas…
The Israelis should eliminate Hamas in a ground offensive and if a couple of eggs get broken along the way soo be it but having Hamas liquidated will be one mighty fine omelet.
We shouldnt be giving any money to Hamas, Gazans or the PLO in the West Bank…how about giving it to the Solomon Islands or East Timor???
“Ron who broke the cease fire?? who fired first??? ”
You don’t “get it”
Israel ar invaders , they ar occupying non Israeli land since 1967 according to 99% of th UN and by UN resoluton
Now tell me th UN and 99% of countrys on this earth ar wrong
Glen,
Who broke the cease fire? Who fired first?
How do you know it wasn’t Israel. Don’t put your money on it, you could get surprised!
Solution: Confiscate Israel’s weapons or supply the Palestinians with the same amount.
Ron what do you say if we bought the two homes around Glen’s house, and then we started shrinking his boundaries. If he complains we will belt him over the head and the cops won’t do anything because they are on our side.
Centre if i’d had the chance to make a fair deal with you beforehand and i rejected it out of hand then yes it would be my tough luck.
Ron the Palestinians could have had a State in 1948…they just got greedy!
Glen “Ron the Palestinians could have had a State in 1948…they just got greedy!”
Now now glen…you ar back pedalling ..back to 48 …and down hill which is worse
EVERY Libweral Leader from Gorton on agrees with me…Israel ar occupying non Israeli land since 1967 and should withdraw Now you ar not going to disagree with Gorton , Mccmahon , Sneeden , Fraser , Peacock and Howard ar you
now when you hav an invader , you resist….th invader can NOT (as Israel) demands require th resistance to stop firing bullets at th invader before th invader is prepared to withdraw !!….and in meantime invader justs bombs kids
Glen
AFAIK who broke the ceasefire is beside the point. My understanding is that international law says that any military response is supposed to be proportionate. Israel’s military response is clearly disproportionate to the rockets fired and therefore breaches international law. Here is a Q&A at the BBC on this topic which was posted in 2006 and is sadly still relevant:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5198342.stm
If you don’t care about international law or proportionate responses and support Israel here then to be unbiased you would have to support Russia in Georgia too. Is that your position Glen?
Israel gets away with this not because their position is legitimate, but because Jewish voters in the US loby to have any punitive measures vetoed in the UN.
That statement reminds me of a radio commentator who described the innocent victims killed in Iraq as ‘collateral damage’. What a bloody disgrace.
Quite apart from the illegality and unethical nature of any such invasion of Gaza by Israel, does anyone really think it will stop attacks from terrorists on Israel in future? Just as the invasion of Lebanon spawned a generation fo suicide bombers, this one will do the same. Haven’t we learnt anything after Iraq?
Is Glen the new Rumsfeld?
I take it Glen it wouldn’t bother you if your better half, children, parents or friends were one or more of those “eggs” in the making of that “omelot”?
Gary, I think it’s one massive assumption to think Glen has a better half
Gary Bruce…
Gazans would be better off under the PLO than Hamas…the PLO at least talk peace Hamas would never accept peace because they draw their strength from constantly being in conflict with israel…
Not if you were killing targets of value Gary no…war is terrible but if you are going to fight you must fight to win…
Hamas could have stayed with the cease fire…they broke it and now must suffer the consequences and rightfully so…
If Israel is smart they’ll push Hamas into the sea and eliminate them once and for all and install the PLO in Gaza again…
Gaza is not Lebanon i dont think the Israelis could lose a fight there.
Bob, anyone has to be a “better half” to Glen. Some of his recent views on the homeless and this recent statement have really put a large hole in the respect I once had for him. Anyone who has these attitudes has the moral fibre of a gnat IMHO.
Gary im glad you view a conservative with such glowing reverence…
I dont like war but there wont be peace in Palestine if Hamas is running Gaza and so destroying Hamas is a necessary evil…
Your guilty conscience may force you to vote left, but deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted conservative to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king….jj!
This is what dosen’t make sense. Why would you pick a fight that you can’t possibly win? Why would you pick a fight where you can be destroyed?
I would bet that Israel either directly or indirectly started it. They have MORE to gain by doing so.
Glen, you can argue the rights and wrongs of the Middle East all you like. That is not my beef. I’m more interested in a mindset that can brush off innocent people dying with terms like “eggs” or ‘collateral damage’. That’s the real worry. No wonder we have bloody wars.
The sad thing about war is that there always is collateral damage…but you cannot change this…keeping Hamas in power would consign more people to their deaths and if you must know Israel did warn several Palestinians that their houses would be targets but they took the decision to die or put more civilians in them for more casualties…
My conscience is clear Glen. I just hope you can sleep at night.
Conservatives want to lower taxes all right, for the rich, but don’t want to help people in need. They want to brutalize all right but not necessarily those that are criminals and they want to rule over people all right – it’s called the born to rule syndrome. Glen, that sentence sums up everything I detest about the conservative view of the world.
Which is why it is a quote from a popular TV show called the Simpsons it was a joke Gary…
Glen “Hamas could have stayed with the cease fire”
So if we Aussies were invaded and th invader Indonesia was still here after 42 years , we aussies also should agree to a ceasefire with Indonesa…rather than resisting and trying to force them out
Then we they drop one ton bombs on our Leders Rudd & Turnbulls homes killing not just Rudd and Trunbull..but also there wives and kids …just continue with that wondeful ceasefire legitimising th invaders presense , rather than resisting
Israel illegaly occupys per th UN charter and has broken numerous anti Geneva and UN war crime conventions It does so ONLY because most powerful country on earth military and econamicly suports them and vetoes any UN sanctons , due to th NRA politcal power equivalent …th US j.wish lobby
So israel not only has invaded and occupied , and amnnexed land and made illegal settlements , it then bombs th wives and kids of th resisters !!!….breeding M/E hatred of USA as well as of Israel ….sooner or later one of these rogue States will get WMD’s…then use them…and people will wonder why
But Israel does not care because reality is this is an Israeli “religous land acquisiton war”….to annex Arab east Juralesm as they’re doing with suburbs being built…AND building illegal settlements on non israeli land That is NOT an invader who is leaving , he is intending staying to permanently occupy I’m not sure th naive USA understand that or that there policy breeds of continud M/E hatred
Glen , when you ar invaded , you resist , and you never stop resisting until invader leaves IF people want peace , then that is th simple answer, but Israel’s Agenda is to stay proved by there settlements And defending collateral damage from dropping bombs by an invader on dense civilian cties as OK is never ok in my book Just wish Western Media had courage to say so
Joe Biden said that Obama will be tested. It came sooner than expected. But it did not come from Iran, it did not come from Al-Kay-Da, it did not come from the Evil Empire, it came from a friendly fire. Oh well, someone did say that life was not meant to be easy.
http://www.progressive.org/mag/avnery010209.html
btw: can we not start the new year with another round Amigo Ronnie bashing
Okay kids, we’ve all said our piece on Gaza now. For future reference, I’m not saying the subject is banned across the board, but such is its divisiveness that I do require discussions to be intelligent and constructive (i.e. nothing at all like this one).
93 Glen – fair enough Glen. I have not watched one episode of The Simpson’s. However many a true word said in jest. The fact that I didn’t pick it as a joke says a lot of how far down the murky track conservatives around the world have travelled, don’t you think?
Ron the simple matter of the fact is that Palestine would have been in its 61st year of nationhood had they accepted the 1948 partition…they didnt accept and so look at what they are left with now?
Gaza would have been connected to the West Banks and the Palestinians would have had 43% of the land and Israel 56%…it was a deal they should have accepted but failed to do because of pride fools pride IMHO.
“The sad thing about war is that there always is collateral damage…but you cannot change this…”
That’s like saying, the sad thing about shooting someone is that they usually die… but you cannot change this…
Huh? How about, don’t shoot them!
And i’m with William on this. Go to whirlpool or somewhere else to discuss Gaza. This site is for Australian politics.
i didnt start this discussion on gaza bob just so u know…
Sorry Glen. The last para wasn’t directed at anyone in particular.
Australian politics at the moment is BORING. I say bring on the division issues and let it all hang out. Who is afraid of Virginia Wolf?
I think Australian politics at the moment is rather fascinating. Rudd, like others around the world, are swinging somewhat back to Keynesian economics. Why I find it fascinating in Australia is that Labor was quite economically socialist until Whitlam who moved somewhat to the right, then even further to the right under Hawke/Keating, but has actually drifted back a little under Rudd.
Who’d have thought!
Though admittedly it is quite hard to be more of an economic rationalist than Paul Keating, the one who originally proposed a GST.
The government rules out bringing in anyone from Gitmo so Brandis now says that it is worrying that the government even considered it? Is this bloke for real?
I wonder whether the budget is already in deficit?
Glen “Ron the simple matter of the fact is that Palestine would have been in its 61st year of nationhood had they accepted the 1948 partition”
Glen , they were offerred a partition to divide existing arab land to create a new new non arab country , but in any event whatever is th past is now irrelevant so lets forget 1948 , and it does not make th current status right at all …either in bombing dense civilian Gaza areas or Israel remaining in ocupation despite UN resolitions to withdraw
Australian govts and now Rudd , & other Western govts FA hav also restled with Israeli repeated flouting of UN resolutions , and no doubt trying to influense USA to be even handed and to ignore th US j.wish lobby….ie create a contigous 1967 borders Palestine country and a US backed secured Isreael But as said I’m not convinced at all Israel wants anyting other than retaining th non israeli land it now holds Th fear of criticising Israel for such blatant bombing atrocitiies extends to almost every Western Media outlet in World…there is also a message there
So Glen, which is more important protecting jobs or keeping the budget in surplus?
My one and only comment on the middle east!
The West Bank, Gaza and Isreal should be declared countries in accordance with the 1948 boundaries, Juralesm should be made an internation city with a split council with four seats for the Jews, four for the Muslims and four for the Christans.
All sides should be told to behave and any one who plays up will face the full force of the International community.
This whole situation has gone on llong enough and really at some poijnt grown ups need to grow up! yes I understand some people were displaced and in an ideal world that would never happen and in an ideal world we all would have everything we want when we want it!
On this occasion Hamas broke the ceasefire but the response has been agressive and excessive, the first side that says enough is enough is the side that will have the moral high ground but in this conflict I don’t see a successful outcome anytime soon.
I wouldn’t pay attention to the polls in Queensland until the ALP hand down their next budget. People aren’t paying attention yet.
“Which is why it is a quote from a popular TV show called the Simpsons it was a joke Gary…”
S U R E it was Glen
Both are important and both can be done at the same time…i guess that’s too hard for a Labor Government but hey…
Ooh William, that is hard. Here goes…
Does Israel face a strength paradox, and, if so, does it matter? Ultimately, as with the Indigenous experience in Australia, is might simply right?
The stronger a country is, and the more it applies its strength to gain its objectives, the weaker its friends are. Current examples:
1. Turkey has drawn back from supporting the negotiations between Israel and Syria.
2. Abbas has been weakened.
3. Mubarak has been weakened.
4. Moderate arabs everywhere have been weakened.
Does it matter? Is it simply more important to be strong and to apply the strength against your enemies, regardless of what friends (or the rest of the world) think? That is to say, friends, and hand-wringing people such as ourselves who merely exhort and expostulate but who are fundamentally irrelevant?
BTW, whatever the merits of the US ‘Jewish lobby’ notion, the real strength of Israel in terms of influence on US foreign policy lies with several tens of millions of fundamentalist Christian voters who support hard-line Israeli right positions.
The thing that would really intrigue me if I were an Israeli policy maker would be how to take time into consideration when developing strategic responses. The basic question is this: ‘Short of returning land, will there ever be a way of persuading enough Palestinians to accept a peaceful status quo?’ If there is not, then basically the premise would be that Israel will remain more powerful forever. A difficult timeline to consider.
Ron,
Have you been reading the John Marsden series “Tomorrow, when the war began”? In this 7 book series for teenagers, Australia is invaded by an unnamed country from the north. USA goes all neutral, and only NZ continues to fight on Australia’s behalf. In the end, Australia surrenders any real sovereignty, and land is confiscated and carved up to accommodate large numbers settlers from the invading country. Only a handful of rebels keep fighting, most of the population surrenders quickly. Obviously Marsden doesn’t think Australians have the courage of the Palestinians.
Glen & Centre – I’m not a big fan, but isn’t “The Simpsons” meant to be satire?
111 – Glen, I thought you would say that. Now could you detail how that can be done?
Ask Peter Costello…he managed to do both for 11.5 years…
In very good world economic times Glen. Totally different situation and you know it. Come on, if it is so easy to do tell us all how to go about it.
You are all talk and no action, just like your party.
I think I have your next answer worked out too Glen. How about, “We’re not the government”.
Im no economist but how about cut spending and have a more flexible IR system is the only ways i can see of minimising the impacts but what do i know im a pollbludger not a professor of economics…
What if we are still in surplus? Don’t be surprised.
polyquats, yes it is satire. Everyone has a favourite Simpsons episode. I liked when Homer started to do jogging. He got as far as Flanders’ house before nearly passing out. Or when Homer was being tortured by the devil by eating doughnuts. When the devil finished, Homer still wanted more.
polyquats
#113
“Ron,
Have you been reading the John Marsden series “Tomorrow, when the war began”? In this 7 book series for teenagers, Australia is invaded by an unnamed country from the north. USA goes all neutral, … Only a handful of rebels keep fighting, most of the population surrenders quickly. Obviously Marsden doesn’t think Australians have the courage of the Palestinians.”
Perhaps polyquats , I should write an 8th book to th 7 book series….Aussie guerillas , never surrender An invader relies on total control , a guerilla resistanse however small can easily disrupt that control if prepared to die
Interesting about courage , one Hamas leader Nizar Rayan’s house yaterday got blown to zero by many missiles & were intended for his house….Israeli intell wuld hav KNOWN in his own home had to be his 4 wives and 10 kids , where th hell else would they be …all 14 also died , plus 2 neighbours visiting An example of ‘trying” to avoid killing inocent civilians i tink not Yet TV footage does not show defeat in there faces , but defiant ‘anger’ ….deliberate “collateral damage” killing of Palestinien woman and kids is not only disgracful but guarantees ‘a never surrender’ population What worries me is I feel th Israeli’s know they cann’t win but don’t need to , and yes poly courage , but without justise
Wonder whethr people hav looked at why Israeli settlements got built in Arab land , hardly for israel’s “defense” ! But wonder if people hav seen Israeli cabinet’s conditions added after th Peace Road Map plan of US , EU , UN & Russia had been fairly determined …which neutred that Roadmap & a planned Palestinien State , again an example of why th settlements on non Israeli land ar a hint
so back to your writer Marden , well I’d be in th hills & being an Aussie and an alleged possible christian , th world would say I’m a freedom fighter , th brave underground resistance…but if i’m a Muslim in an Arab land fighting an invader i’d be called a terorist , an insurgant ….UN says 50 Palestinien kids hav died from th bombing since last Saturday , but then Bush still goes to Church every Sunday , amazing
Me too Centre…
Demonic Torturer: So, you like donuts, eh?
Homer Simpson: Um-hmm.
Demonic Torturer: Well, have all the donuts in the world!
Homer Simpson: More!
Demonic Torturer: I don’t understand it. James Coco went mad in fifteen minutes!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0701279/quotes
The WHOLE Gitmo story, finally. The Government REJECTED Bush’s earlier approach for settlement, and has now REJECTED the second approach
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/03/2458564.htm?section=justin
I know I shouldn’t do this, but … Ron, have you stopped to consider even for one second what kind of a person uses his four wives and ten children as human shields?
For those interested in the middle east issue, I highly recommend the book Exile by Richard North Patterson. Besides being an excellent fictional thriller, it gives I think a pretty even-handed view of the confict and how insurmountable it seems…
Re: 121. Of course Turnbull and the OO are going to claim this as their victory
Abraham Rabinovich in The Australian:
This is addressed to everyone in general, and Ron in particular, as he has made repeated assertions that Israel are illegally occupying land in contravention of (purported but unquoted) UN resolutions.
I do not agree with those assertions. UN resolution 242 called for the “Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area…(and called) on Israel’s neighbours to end the state of belligerency and (called) upon Israel to reciprocate by withdraw its forces from land claimed by other parties in (the) 1967 war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
The pertinent point is that Israel was called upon to withdraw, not unconditionally, but as reciprocation for their neighbours ending their belligerence. Clearly neither the ‘Palestinians’ nor Syria have yet complied with this resolution and Hamas still proclaims its goal of ending the existence of the state of Israel.
In contrast, Egypt reached an accommodation with Israel in 1979, and Israel responded appropriately by withdrawing from the Sinai. Egypt have acted responsibly since then, and not allowed their sovereign territory to be used to attack Israel. Therefore, Israel has had no occasion to attack Egypt, and have not done so.
Compare that (and also the relationship between Israel and the responsible government of Jordan, who expelled terrorist extremists from its territory in 1970/71) with the ‘relationship’ between Israel and Hamas. I think that it is obvious that ‘peace’ however defined, does not exist in the later case and is unlikely to for the foreseeable future, due to the stated intent and repeated belligerent actions of Hamas.
I declare my full support for Israel to take whatever action is necessary to defend their citizens from repeated attacks by Hamas. Israel have in fact committed no war crimes, nor, in my view, any other action worthy of condemnation in defending themselves. That is not to say that I am comfortable, let alone happy, with the loss of life in Gaza, but the responsibility for that resides entirely with the cowards who continue to attack Israel and place their infrastructure in dense civilian areas, instead of using their resources to improve the lot of the ‘Palestinian’ people.
“William I know I shouldn’t do this, but … Ron, have you stopped to consider even for one second what kind of a person uses his four wives and ten children as human shields?”
Have you stopped to consider even for one second what kind of Israeli persons would plan and execute th bombing of a persons own HOME knowing his four wives and ten children ar living there
ie th Israeli person(s) who planned and executed th bombing ABSOLUTELY KNEW th 4 wives and 10 kids would be killed ……whereas its only conjecture whether th father knew or not that his house and his 10 kids would be blown up
And I would not be relying on israeli Media ’spin’ of alleged forwarnings
I’m condemning th premediated fact of bommbing knowing who lived there ….not conjectur on th dead victums mind thoughts
Re the post from William Bowe at 122…. Yep, the same ‘leader’ and ‘family man’ whom you referred to, also apparently had (past tense) an elder son whom he encouraged to become a suicide bomber. Nice.
It amazes me that some contributers to this site have stated that they think that Hamas should have access to the equivilant weaponry to Isreal, and that they would consider donating to them (Hamas). I consider Hamas to be about on a par with Robert Mugabe.
Let’s just say for the sake of argument that it’s true. Is there anything you’ve said that you would revise? More broadly, is it your position that there can never be any justification for any military operation that causes civilian casualties? If not, where do you draw the line and why?
Fargo
#126
“The pertinent point is that Israel was called upon to withdraw, not unconditionally, but as RECIPROCATION for their neighbours ending their belligerence”
That is a false representation of resolution 242
I just knew finaly there wuld be an israeli suporter falsely claiming th invaded peoples th Palestiniens had to FIRST stop trying to force th invader Israel out of there lPalstinien lands BEFORE th invader would leave !
Thats why th invader is still there 42 years later , using this false excuse …oh we cann’t leave although we could but no we ain’t leaving till th occupied FIRST stop
trying to force us out Utter nonsense , no rsulution wuld ever be framed for th invader to stay
What resulution 242 below specificaly says is for Israel to withdraw (point (i) )
There is no condition attached to point (i) allowing Israel to remain IN ANY CIRCUMSTANSES WHATSOEVER
QUOTE UN RESULUTION 242
” 1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; (1967 War)
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”
Any breach of point (ii) , a separate conbdition would hav required further (BUT later) UN resulutions and actions against whoever breached point (ii)…independent of Israels withdrawal requirement in point (i)
It is why Israel and USA almost alone in world do not like reslution 242 …it calls for Israels withdrawal …fullstop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
Glen! in the 1890s and the 1930s the Governments response to economy downturns was to cut spending the result was two extreme depressions.
Both depressions lead Governments gome to realise that they needed to be more involved in the delivery of services and needed greater regulation.
Lets take the 1890s depression and I refer to this one for it was an Australian depression but the result was to change the way this country politics was carryied out with the rise of the ALP and the Unions also lead the Governments to take social policy more seriously.
In many ways Deakin won the debate against Reid due in part to the Melbourne Bust, and Deakin’s view remained the cornerstone of policy in Australia uptil the 1980s.
The Scullin Government made several mistakes one being to cut spending, wages and pensions. the reality is that while I for one do not like Government debt and yes we can look at Japan but Japan had several issues that made their situation worst but I believe that the Government has made the correct call.
Japan’s biggest problem was it had a culture that people would join the one company and remain in that one place for life and also they have a greater level of aging with a minimal immigration rate which has meant thet Japan has reduced its ability to respond to the what happened in the 1990s.
There are dangers in our Government’s approach but I believe that the biggest positive has been the fact that it is seen to be acting this in turn gves business and consumers something rather than if the Government took the o its a recession out hands are tied.
Sure 2009 will be a tough year but I am confidence that we can get though the next 12 months without a recession and if this means we have a debt then so be it.
The choice is we try and keep the budget in surphus but as unemployment rises we will need to increase welfare payments this in turn will need to be funded so instead of the Government spending money to get people spending it will instead be funding people to sit around on unemployment.
Those unemployed people will not be spending as much as those who are employed and even those employed will become nervious therefore the Governemnt would be faced with needing to increase regional grants and other financial steps to keep things together, this spending would be dead spending.
While if the Government is giving people payouts which are greater than any welfare will be in a manner that sends a clear message they we (Government) have confidence then this will hopefully underpin consumer confidence and reduce the risk of greater job loses mostly in areas of retail and hospitality two areas that have many low payed workers and in general are very exposed.
I say to those who want to repeat the policies of Scullin and the Victorian premiers, lets not for we know from history what the result is.
If the Government wants to make savings, lets start by doing away with the Job Network and Disabled Employment providers.
I know we all have heard a great deal about the Great Depression but not as much is known about the Melbourne Bust so the following is a quick history less as recorded in a book “The Land Boomers” by Michael Cannon, published in 1966…
I will point out that back in the 1890s the economy was largle unregulated and in many ways suited the policy outcomes aspired to by the Howard Government!
Victoria was made rich by gold, and populous by the immigrants who sought it.
Two great economic booms and depressions had already shaken nineteenth century Victoria. The first occurred shortly after the early Melbourne land sales of 1837, reaching its peak about three years later. The discovery of gold sparked off the second great boom, which reached its peak in the 1850s. People had money to burn, and either dissipated it in wild extravagance or bought property at inflated prices. But because of the continuous rich flow of gold, there was comparatively little suffering when the inevitable crash followed.
Then came the land boom of the 1880s. This time every type and degree of man was involved. Clergymen, labourers, widows, schoolmasters all grasped at the chance of quick wealth and invested their savings.
The land mania of the 1880s took two main forms. The first was based on a plethora of building societies, whose optimistic officials were relieved that every family in the colony could simultaneously build their own house, keep up the payments through good times and bad, and support an army of investors who were being paid high rates of interest for the use of their money. The second form of mania was the deeply held belief that it was impossible to lose money by investing in land a belief that persists to the present day.
The boom continued to gather strength. In 1885 the harvest was prolific, the price of wool was high, the railways made a profit for the first time in the colony’s history, and optimism reigned supreme. A few warning voices were raised overseas, but heard as from afar.
In 1886 it appeared to some of the associated banks that the land boom had reached its zenith and would now plunge downwards. They became alarmed at the large withdrawals being made
to meet land payments, and increased the interest rate on deposits and overdrafts by 1 per cent. For a year land speculation became less profitable
Then in 1887 there began a new wave of speculation, the land boom proper, so forceful that it over-rode all considerations of interest rates. Land selling in Surrey Hills for 15 shillings a foot in 1884 rose to 15 Pounds in 1887. Land at Burwood rose from 70 to 300 Pounds an acre.
In the city there was fantastic competition for blocks, fanned by constant reports of fortunes which had been made by holding on to the blocks for a few months and reselling.
Once again the banks, dismayed by wildly fluctuating values, began calling in overdrafts. Unfortunately, some of the leading banks had encouraged speculation when money was plentiful, and ruthlessly suppressed it when the inevitable reaction set in. This traditional banking policy, aimed primarily at safeguarding the banks’ own interests, proved utterly ruinous to the general community.
The land promotors began looking elsewhere for easy finance. Thus the years 1888, 1889 and even 1890 saw the formation of most of the disastrous land and finance companies, and so-called land banks. Under the loose banking and company laws of the time, they were able to take savings deposits, issue shares, float loans, discount promissory notes and other commercial paper, and in general perform all the functions of an established bank.
The boom soared upwards to dizzy new heights. How could such values last? The maximum rentals which tenants were willing to pay often amounted to only 2.5% return on the money spent on sites and buildings. As the boom petered out, many tenants could not pay even that. A few experienced speculators realised what would happen, and quietly began to sell off their shares and land while there was yet time.
Simultaneously, there began a series of calamitous industrial conflicts between employers and the developing unions, mainly in the maritime and pastoral industries. The strike collapsed. But business never fully picked up again.
For a few months, many investors still appeared to be hypnotized by the boom. By the time they realised that the crash was indeed final, practically every land company was in liquidation and calls on their shares had gone forth. The same pressure was felt by the land banks, many of which owned shares in associated speculative companies. Some were able to use the public’s cash deposits to stay open a little longer. But one after another they toppled, the pressure
multiplying each day as their depositors took fright and withdrew their cash. From July 1891, when the Imperial Bank suspended payment, to March 1892, when the Australian Deposit and Mortgage Bank suspended, no fewer than 20 major financial institutions, with liabilities of nearly 20 million Pounds, closed down.
Every day brought news and rumours of fresh disasters, of another land company folding up. And when they folded, there came the inevitable calls of capital on their partly paid shares to help pay the creditors.
Suicide became a commonplace solution.
By the end of 1891 the bottom had completely dropped out of the land market.
As bank shares and other stocks began to slide in value, the Directors of certain companies sent out dummies to buy their own shares and prop up their value temporarily while the Directors sold their personal holdings.
Said Table Talk, just before Christmas 1892, “Never before in the history of the colony has a Christmas holiday been shrouded in such deep gloom. Shop-keepers complain that their customers appeared to have forgotten that the season of good cheer was at hand, and started on being asked for the accustomed order, as if reminded of the changed condition of their purses that does not admit of luxuries or extras.”
The year 1892 may have been sombre, but the disasters to come in 1893 were quite unprecedented. Enough misuse of financial power had been revealed to make every man suspicious of the soundest institutions, and to be fearful about the safety of his own bank deposits. Quietly, and then more quickly, a general run on the established banks began.
Public disquiet was multiplied by the suspension of the Commercial Bank on 7 April 1893, following heavy withdrawals and a slump in the value of its shares.
On the weekend of 29-30 April 1893, the great and powerful National Bank privately advised the Premier that because of the continuous run on its deposits, it intended to suspend business on the Monday. On Sunday 30 April, Cabinet met secretly and decided to declare the whole week a banking Holiday. On Monday 1 May 1893, men picked up their morning papers to read the incredible news that the colony’s entire banking system had apparently broken down.
The Angel of Death came early and stayed late in the Melbourne of 1892 and 1893. The collapse of the boom economy was sudden and dramatic. As each company closed its doors, it dragged others down with it. Clerks, surveyors, accountants, builders, and every other kind of employee was thrown out of work, and onto a labour market which was harsh enough in good times, but almost non-existent in bad times. Their savings ran out, and still there was no work to be had. Nor was there any form of help, beyond private charity which usually came too little and too late.
In the absence of trustworthy statistics, it is difficult for us today to form a complete picture of the extent of unemployment and the human suffering it produced. Some contemporary observers claimed that every second man was out of work, but these estimates could only be guesswork. Thousands of people were privately supported by others. Thousands left Melbourne. Thousands lived on scraps and municipal handouts. All we can say for certain is that this was the worst depression in Australian history, before or since.
Ron
well said old son
MB
Am reading Curtins autobio,interestingly WA was the lead state in tackling unemployment during the’30s,using much the same methods as you allude to.
Billbo
A massacre is a massacre
A ghetto is a ghetto
Bullying is Bullying
There are no degrees of “rightness”
All right, Gusface, you answer the question: Is it your position that there can never be any justification for any military operation that causes civilian casualties? If not, where do you draw the line and why?
Billbo
Where the UN clearly endorses military action,is an act justifiable.
To ensure that each country has the security of collective action,a mandate must be issued.
RAMSI as one example is sufficient.
Gusface if you are attacked under International Law you have the right to respond and while the response has been overly aggressive the reality is as William points out.
MB
I would like to know where,specifically, the UN endorses indiscriminate pattern bombing.
Also where and when the UN has given a mandate to Israel’s actions.
You said it Glen. Hence why I take what you say about the economy with a grain of salt.
Yep, that was me Fargot 61.
You want peace in the Middle East, you have two options.
1. Israel should stop encroaching on land that is not theirs.
2. Confiscate weapons from Israel or supply the same amount of weapons to the Palestinians.
I’ll tell you something, you will get peace sooner or later. The way things are at the moment you will NEVER get peace.
You DO NOT know who started it. As far as I’m concerned, from someone who is totally unbiased, open minded and completely independent, and from someone who does not have blood cell of either going back as many strands of bloodline as records were kept. Israel have lost ALL credibility.
What about you Fargo 61, what is your ancestry?
Gusface there are two issues
1) Under every set of International laws relating to War since the second peace conference of 1896 there has been a clear rule that states that if two sides have a cease fire agreement in place and one side breaks it then the other side has the right two respond.
2) The same laws also outline what constitudes a war crime and from what I know you are only allowed to attack military targets, you are to take care when it comes to clivians and it is considered a wear crime to attack clivians on proposes.
I will add it is a war crime to hide your milary targets amoungst cilivian areas for it exposes them to attack.
Also if you attack clivian targets you are open to payment for damage.
I know I shouldn’t get involved in another argument about the Middle East, and particularly while I’m on holidays, for this way lies madness as we all know, but I can’t let the assertion above that “we should forget about 1948 and concentrate on the present” pass without comment. It is impossible to understand what is happening in Gaza now without knowing that history, and indeed the whole history of the area back to the 19th century. (This is why we have historians, by the way.)
* A hundred years ago there was no such thing as a Palestinian. The area that is now Israel/Palestine was part of the Ottoman province of Syria. The coastal areas where most Israelis now live was a malarial swamp. The upland areas around Jerusalem and Nablus had a small population of Arabs, about half of them Christians. There was also a long-resident Jewish population, and some Zionist settlements which began in the 1890s.
* The word “Palestine” was invented by the British (who remembered their Roman history) for their part of Ottoman Syria when they occupied it in 1918. It was then gradually appropriated by the Arab population as a national identity in the 20s and 30s. During the British period the Jewish and Arab populations both grew rapidly, as British administration and Jewish capital developed the territory, particularly commercial agriculture, attracting Arab immigration from other parts of the Arab world. Thus the great majority of both Israelis and Palestinians are descended from people whose ancestors settled there after 1918.
* By the 1940s the British were confronted with two sets of competing nationalisms, aggravated on the Jewish side by the needs of refugees from Europe. Neither Jews nor Arabs, it must be repeated, had any exclusive right on their side. The Arabs had won the area by force from the Byzantines in the 8th century, but they had lost sovereignty to the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century, and Arab settlement before 1918 was very sparse. Palestinian nationality was a post-1918 invention. Of course once it was invented it had to be accepted as a reality, but that doesn’t mean that mythical Palestinian claims to long-standing sovereignty should be accepted also.
* The obvious and correct solution to this impasse was to partition the territory, which is what the UN proposed in 1947. If the Arabs had accepted the Partition Plan, there would now have been a Palestinian state, twice the size of the current Palestinian territories, with co-sovereignty over Jerusalem, for more than 60 years. Rejecting it was the stupidest thing the Arab leaders ever did (which is saying something), and is the root cause of all the subsequent troubles.
* About 800,000 Arabs left what is now Israel in 1948. Most of them are now dead, but their descendants are still penned up in “refugee” camps by the Arab states, who prefer to keep the “refugee” issue alive rather than allow these unfortunate people to be resettled. Israel has been a sovereign state for more than 60 years. It is not going to go away, and it is not going to accept a “right of return” for 4 million people who have never set foot within its borders. The best that can now be salvaged for the Palestinians from the folly of their leaders is a state in Gaza and the majority of the West Bank, and resettlement elsewhere for those who can’t be accommodated.
* That is what Clinton and Barak offered Arafat at Camp David in 2000, and rejecting that offer was the second-stupidest thing the Arabs ever did. The worst misfortune ever to befall the Palestinians was Arafat, a corrupt and incompetent fool who threw away the best offer the Palestinians were ever likely to get so that he could retain his loot and his own power over his squalid empire of “refugee” camps.
* So long as the Palestinians allow themselves to be led by gangsters like Arafat and fanatics like Hamas, they are not going to get anything except more misery. The Palestinians have to accept the painful fact that they chose to resort to force in 1948, and were defeated, and that there is no reversing that verdict. Every time they have resorted to force since then, whether in 1967, 1973, the PLO terrorist campaigns in the 70s, the first and second Intifadas, they have been defeated again, and have just made their situation worse and encouraged hardline attitudes in Israel.
MB
I support the state of Israel and its right to exist
I do not support the use of a “sledgehammer to crack a nut” (pun intended)
As regards your point 1, my reading is that the ceasefire ended on the 19th Dec.
Point 2 belongs to the IWCT I believe. (milosevic anyone)
BTW do you support a multinational,racial,religious force to enforce the ‘49 border?
Is it too late for the International community to impose the 1948 proposals.
I’m no expert on the Middle East but the historical situation pre 1948 is part of the problem. Israel was set up by the UN. At the time the UN was mostly European (esp the WW2 victors) and some other countries mainly in South and Latin America. There were no representatives of the Palestinian people in the UN at the time – Palestine was administered by Britain. The establishment of Israel was seen in part as an answer to the Holocaust and anti-jewish prejudice in Europe. The problem was that people in Palestine, most Arab people and most people affected by colonialism did not support having a new state based on European notions of what was right for Europeans and everyone else. Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey and Yemen all voted against the UN resolution setting up Israel. War resulted but the Israelis with support from their sponsors defeated the neighbouring Arab regimes which were very weak and Israel seized quite a bit of land beyond that set out by the UN. Sixty years later it is not just Hamas that doesn’t recognise Israel – many Atlasses sold in Arab countries don’t show Israel as an entity. The PLO/Fatah attempted to negotiate a 2 state solution but the best that was proposed at the time was a bad outcome for a Palestinian state with myriads of roads crisscrossing the state with Israeli rights of access and all sorts of rights for colonial settlements which had been sponsored by Israelis in land occupied post 1967. The issue is very difficult but one thing is for sure – Israeli expansionists (who are still funding and acquiescing in colonial sttlements of the West Bank) and Muslim fundamentalists seem to feed off each other and successfully squeeze out more moderate and democratic groups.
William
And I would not be relying on israeli Media ’spin’ of alleged forwarnings
“Let’s just say for the sake of argument that it’s true. Is there anything you’ve said that you would revise? More broadly, is it your position that there can never be any justification for any military operation that causes civilian casualties? If not, where do you draw the line and why?”
William , I’m not sure I could do proper justise to your queston briefly , but generaly queston 1/ yes never a justification to seek to kill one hamas knowing you’re going to kill 14 other family members , th hamas leader will get replaced anyway , so its not even a ‘military operation’ making a skerick of miltary diferense but th 14 dead family members cann’t be replaced Queston 2/ th resistanse is because Israel hav not withdrawn as per UN 242 so th civilian collaterall damage you refer to if any , would be on th Israeli side by a military operation by Palestiniens trying to forse Israel to leave non Israeli lands….and not th innocent civilians of th invadee th Palestiniens
So th line is whether you ar th invadee or th invador Now once military operations commense th invadee may actualy cause civilian casulities and there hav been terrible ones there condemnable However th key issue is th INVADOR (Israel) who is so defined by th UN itself and th invador Israel is in absolutely DEFIANSE of UN resultion 242 and is th one causing th innocent civilian casualities by dropping bombs on a defenceless city , there is no justification at all , they ar th invador and that itself by remaining an invador for 42 years is where they crossed th line (Dropping those one ton bombs on civilians has just magnified how far accross th line they oblivously ar
Resolution 242 (Israeli withdrawal to 1967 borders) needs to be implemented , with concurent USA militay backing securing Isdrael’s security , because being an Israeli invador guarantees no resolution at all to conflict Alternative is to ignore th express UN 242 rsolutions suported by most countrys on earth , which is occuring for 42 years…so referenses to “ceasefires” broken in that comntext ar quite irrelevant
.
Death count… th invadee Palestiniens 420 to two days ago (more since) …th invador Israel from rockets 4 (four)
FORGET histary lessons of 1948 or Centuries before…we hav a UN , a overwhelming no of World countrys voted for resulution 242 (refer my #130) , saying Israel must withdraw…..and 42 years later it still has not …and it is bombing th invadees with one ton bombs killing innocent civilans incl womenn
and kids…..anyting else is a red herring to reality or media ’spin’ This time th West is wrong
Actually Israel was set up by the Jewish people. All the UN did was propose a plan to create a Palestinian state alongside it. The Jews accepted this, the Arabs rejected it and resorted to arms. When they were defeated, Israel kept the bits it had occupied during the fighting. If you are the party that resorts to force, you are responsible for your losses.
There will never be peace in this Israel/Palestine conflict as long as:
1. Both sides think that violence can solve the political and social problems.
2. Israel refuses to withdraw from all occupied territories, return to pre67 border.
Yes of course it is. No-one is going to force Israel to do anything, and certainly not return to the Partition Plan borders. Even a return to the 1967 ceasefire line (which was not a recognised border) is most unlikely. The likelihood is that the security fence will be the new de facto, and eventually de jure, Israel-Palestine border. The majority of Israelis are willing to live alongside a Palestinian state IF the Palestinians and the Arab states recognise Israel, renounce violence and drop the “right of return” and other fantasies. If that is not forthcoming, Israel is willing to live with the current situation indefinitely, and has the means to do so. That’s the reality of the matter.
Violence can and frequently does solve political and social problems. The Palestinians obviously think so, since they have been trying to solve the territorial issue by force since the 1930s. The problem has been the Jews/Israelis have always been able to respond with superior and/or better organised force. Sooner or later the Palestinians will notice this, but I’m not holding my breath.
There was no “pre67 border”, only the 1948 ceasefire line. The only legally binding borders Israel has are those with Egypt and Jordan, which have recognised its existence. Since Jordan has renounced its claim to the West Bank, and since Egypt never actually annexed Gaza, these two pieces of land are “terra nullius” pending a treaty between Israel and some future Palestinian state.
“the majority of Israelis are willing to live alongside a Palestinian state IF the Palestinians and the Arab states recognise Israel, renounce violence and drop the “right of return” and other fantasies.”
You got th “IF” out of place….and that sort of false tinking has got us what….42 years of conflict
Th only “IF” that counts is for Israel to comply with th UN 242 , and withdraw from non Israeli land , a point you conveniently ignore ….and it is there actual illegal presense which is at th hart of why there is still conflict
Adam , that is nonsense there ar no 1967 borders What th hell do you think UN resolution 242 says …quote:
“Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; (1967 War)”
UN Resolution 242 does NOT “call for Israel to withdraw” from anything. It calls for “the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East,” which it says should “include the application of BOTH (my emphasis) the following principles:
“Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict”, AND “Termination of all claims or states of belligerency” AND “respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.” The Resolution recognises that the two elements of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East must go together. One cannot happen without the other. So far, the Palestinians and the majority of Arab states have NOT “Terminated of all claims or states of belligerency”, and have NOT “acknowledged the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence” of Israel. Until they do so, Israel is under no obligation to withdraw from anything – although it has in fact withdrawn from Gaza, with results we now see.
I just told you what it says, correcting your previous misrepresentation. It makes no mention of borders.
Haha, even William has managed to be sucked in to debating Gaza.
Yes, as I said at the time, I should have known better. Out again now.
We should all know better, but none of us do. I wasn’t going to, but blatant rewriting of history always gets me going.
You hav falsely added an “AND” to resloution 242 right through your post as if Israeli withdrawal was conditional on th invadees first having to stop trying to forse th invador out
to demonstrate you’ve added these ‘ands’ I’ll requote from #130 resolution 242
” 1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”
there ar no “ands’ …and no pre conditions for Israel to withdraw at all in point (i) , other wise Israel would hav had an excuse to remain …an excuse you and it falsely use
Israel had to withdraw ..fullstop in point (i)
Other Parties (Palestiniens) had to separately fulfull point (ii) AND if they did not then UN later sanctions resolutions would hav been implemnted with full UN suport
Israel had an obligation under point (i) which ISRAEL has ignored
We will NEVEr know if th other parties (Palestiniens etc) would hav complied with point (ii) because Israel BY remaining and NOT withdrawing simply guaranteed other Parites (Palestiniens etc) wuld continue to resist by force to get Israel out !
You ar running a circular arguement of chickens and eggs …where there could be never an end …thats why there isn’t one after 42 years
Niow simply Israel withdraws from non Israeli …then lets see if there is still conflict , because conflict will continue whilst they ar there …a point in both 242 and invadee relations you’ve overlooked
True! but this debate shows why after 60 years a resolution is an far off as ever for it is an emotive issue!
Ron, do you really think I am that dumb? I carefully placed the word AND outside quotation marks to show that it was not part of the resolution. The key word in the resolution is “BOTH”. The resolution is quite specifically and deliberately non-sequential. It does NOT say “Israel must withdraw and THEN the Arabs must do all the other stuff.” It says they must both happen together. So, when the Palestinians and Arab states, and particularly Syria, are ready to renounce belligerency against Israel and recognise its territorial integrity, etc, they can say so. THEN, and only then, Israel will withdraw.
Although I expect in the current context any such statement would have to include Iran as well, which wasn’t a factor in 1967 but has now chosen to make itself one.
Adam this conflict in Gaza is sure as hell hotting up the Israeli General Elections coming up that’s for sure…
Brilliant, Glen! The Israeli elections! Let’s talk about those.
Well done Ron. You may not know how to write, but you do have a brain in your head.
Would it be right to claim that Israel require beligerent action from the Palestinians to contiue to occupy or further invade their land?
Glen, no government can expect to get re-elected if it allows its cities to be attacked with missiles and makes no response. Hamas knows that, which is why it pulled this provocative escalation in its attacks as the election campaign begins. Then it knows that all the usual idiots in Europe and the UN etc (and at Pollbludger) will moan and wail about the evil Israelis and the Hamas death cult will tighten its grip on the long-suffering and deluded Palestinian masses. It’s all very predictable, and Israel knows this game very well. But the duty of any government is to respond to aggression, and not to worry about what they say in Le Monde.
I just quoted UN Resolution 242 for you. Read it for yourself. The West Bank and Gaza are not part of any recognised state, they are terra nullius. Israel occupied them as part of a war of self-defence in 1967. Ever since then the PLO and the majority of Arab states have continued to wage war against Israel. When Israel did withdraw from Gaza, Hamas took it over and used it as a base for further attacks. What do you expect Israel to do in these circumstances? Anyone who knows the history of the Jewish people in the 20th century can figure out the answer to that question.
If WW2 had of stopped after Hitler captured France , with th requirement German troops had to withdraw to German borders , th agreemetn would not specify th Germans could remain as occupiers of France if th French resistanse kept firing at th German invadors ….otherwise th Germans could & would remain because obviously French resistanse would still keep fighting to forse th Germans from there Country
No , th agreement would be for German troops to hav to withdraw to Germen borders ..fullstop
.
AND that other Countrys incl France don’t attack Germany or its soil
This premises of th Occupier & invador calling th shots that he won’t withdraw until th occupied stops shooting at th Occupier invador logicaly can never happen …and hasn’t and never will Rather its a convenient but lame excuse to illegaly occupy Why th hell would Palestiniens renounce attacking he who has invaded and is still in occupation
What you’ve mised is point (ii) of th resolution regarding th Palestiniens is a SEPARATE condition & can only occur AFTER th invador has left …at which point th Palestiniens ar barred (rightly) from beligerence against sovereign Israel and vice versa And don’t bring Syria in as an excuse for occupation of West Bank .. thats an issue only between Syria and Isreal over th Golan Geights area
I suspect Bibi will do well from this as will the Israeli Labor Party considering the former PM Barrak is Defence Minister…
Kadima still may be a partner with Bibi and Likud should they win enough MKs…
That’s not what 242 says. If that was the intention, it would say so.
The resolution that you have quoted is crystal clear to me. I stand by my post @ 163.
I’d be very surprised if Livni and Barak were willing to go into coalition with Netanyahu, unless there is an actual war going on. There is a lot of bad blood over the Sharon departure from Likud. Before the Gaza outbreak, Netanyahu was odds-on to win. IF Gaza turns out well, Livni and Barak will do better. If it turns out badly, Netanyahu will romp home. And then there will be no peace process at all.
gee with livni/barak/ orthodox centre right you get war
with bibi / israel orthodox hard right even more war
Obviously the only hope is a miracle of biblical proportions where the result shows a huge boost for meretz type parties.
What a mess. As usual.
Because Israeli governments need large coalitions wouldnt Kadima support a Likud Government? They must have more chance of forming up with them then Labor…
Ehud is doing well in the polls but he doesnt have enough support…
It is between Livni and Bibi…the trouble for Bibi is that he hasnt got any control over events and as such cannot take any credit for success based on hard line policies that he advocates…
“That’s not what 242 says”
your wrong interpretation of 2 separate clauses that also included Egypt and syria th 1967 aggressors) and trying to make point one 9required Israeli withdrawal) as a condition of point two RELATING TO th Palestiniens solely is totaly wrong because clearly it does not say that
What you’ve done is allow Israel to illegaly invade and continue to do so , not realizing that point (ii) at th time also needed to include Egypt and Syria who were parties to 1967 War with Israel an THEY concurrently needed to dessist from beligerence To twist point (ii) to ALSO include those (th palestiniens) who were th victims (th occcupied) from resisting th invadors would hav made point (i) and point (ii) incap[able of fruiton …..and th israelis and you by doing so hav proved my point …still 42 years and with your interpretion never a chanse of th Palestiniens fromm desisting from resisiting A self fullfilling occupation excuse suggest you look at point (ii) directly at Egypt and Syria from day one (as inrended) and at point (ii) directly at th Palestiniens AFTER th invadors hav left 9as clearly and logicaly intended)
Ron, you might want to try writing that one again.
The games :-
http://www.kadaitcha.com/2009/01/03/israel-bombs-civilians-in-street-market-in-gaza/comment-page-1/#comment-6460
OK William
The resolution doesn’t say “Egypt and Syria”, it says “all claims or states of belligerency.” But even if you are right, has Syria lifted its state of belligerency against Israel and recognised its right to exist? No.
Anyway, I’m off. It’s dinner time in this part of the world.
Zombie Mao, don’t forget: ????????
????????
huh ?
The Rainmaker, Turnbull, is at it again: warning Rudd not to take Gitmo inmates, when it seems Rudd never had any intention of doing so in the first place.
Malcolm, we need you to protect us against the waffable Rudd.
Been away , just back
First of all I’d like to quote Centre #163
“Would it be right to claim that Israel require beligerent action from the Palestinians to contiue to occupy or further invade their land?”
IF th Palestiniens ceased ALL resistance ‘beligerence’ against th Invador Israel then under Adams wrong inteprettation of UN Resolution 242 , Israel wuld hav to withdraw from non israeli land WITHOUT any pre conditions at all
I am suggesting that such an event of non beligerense to an invador Israel defies human nature Of course th palestiniens will continue to resist as any occupied invaded peoples will
Israel and Adam THEN use that natural for any invaded peoples nature to resist (being this time th th Palestiniens resistance trying to forse th invador israel to withdraw) as an excuse IN ITSELF for th invador Israel to remain as an occupier invador I can not understend how anyone could logicaly expect any other outcome other than th invador Israel therefore remaining using that lame excuse …and it has for 42 years
Now if we look at UN resolution 242 I fully quoted in #157 it needed to address TWO separate issues because mainly Syria Jordan and Egypt in 1967 had attacked Israel and israel repelled th attack and seized Gaza strip and West Bank AND Golen Heights (from syria)
Th issues needing addressing were for israel to go back to its 1967 borders
obviousley because UN were not going to allow an war winner toi keep non Israeli land AND further to hav peace between them all…all 4
Resulution 242 point (i) unconditionaly required israel’s withdrawal to its pre 1967 war borders…fullstop (Israel after 42 years has breached this requirement)
Resulution 242 point (ii) concurentley required th Parties to stop belligerence ….ie to stop having wars with each other ..specificaly Israel , Egypt Jordan and Syria were obviousley what ppoint (ii) was talking about seeing mainly those 4 had just fought th 1967 War AND THEY under point (ii) needed to stop war-ing & respect each’s borders
Blind Freddie should see th Palestiniens th now occupied Party (in Gaza and West Bank) were not going to stop beligerense trying to forse Israel to leave Gaza and West Bank , BUT would be SUBSEQUENTLEY after Israeli withdrawal be obligated to thereafter not be beligerent to Israel aND vice versa
Now Egpyt & Jordan hav signed Pease Treaties with Israel…which complies with Resolution 242 point (ii)…meaning th Gaza and West Bank can no longer be used by Israel as an excuse under Resulution 242 point (i) to remain as th Wes Bank Gaza occupier/invador
Th Palestiniens obligation to non beligeranse (IF ANY !) under point (ii) would only logicaly commense AFTER Israel th invador withdraws from th Gaza and West Bank…and whilst Israel remains as occupier obviousley th Plestineins will forcably resist
Now i’m saying under Resulution 242 point (i) Israel should hav withdrawn in 1967 BECAUSE there was NO reqwuirement in point (ii) for Egypt or Jordan to sign a peace deel , just Egypt , Jordan and Israel each to be non belligerent …th resulution is clear But in any event , since there ar now peace deels with those Parties to that War Egypt , Jordan and Israel , th excuse for non withdrawal becomes even more shallow
Separateley th Golen Heights (formerley part of Syria) remains in dispute, and there is no peace deel between Syria and Israel …BUT that has nothing to do with th West Bank or Gaza because neither were Syrian land pre 1967
Why there is Palestinien and Israeli conflict is simply because Israel occupies land that in 1967 th UN said Israel must withdraw from….and has not done so Excpecting th Palstiniens to desist from armed (but reely token in context) resistance defies histary of what any invaded people will do , resist So th Israeli excuse is false…th further lame excuse of what th Palestiniens may do after withdrawal is in clear defianse of 242 to withdraw
th fact Israel has built settlemetns in non Israeli land and Israeli suburbs in part of Arab East Jerulesm (which they ar supposed to also withdraw from under 242) makes there excuses blantantly obviuos what hetere reel object is …to illegaly annex Arab lands that UN resolution 242 makes clear they hav no right to under UN Law
finaly , th ultimate insult…this invador drops one ton bombs on th innocent civilian occupied population…and then ’spins’ oh we dropped warning leaflets beforehand…no bombs should hav been droped in first place because Israel should hav withdrawn from non israeli land per 242
.
ps/ not only ar Adams defenses of israel so completely flawed , but whereever he is on holiday he hasn’t got courtesy to tell where it is , so none of us go there as it miust be a dud holiday place
I will retract my ps/ on holiday places ….it may get interpretated other than jest
Socates
thanks for those finacial charts earlier today…looked at thems & not alot of joy
For your info I’ve had this chart of what I call th leaning Tower of Pizza…of US Fed reserve assets…for any others looking its not Fed Reserve liabilities but assets and its got an unhealthy look …and possible future Fed Reserve just “printing of money” and future hypo inflaton perhaps
http://www.smartmoney.com/Investing/Economy/Fed-s-Balance-Sheet-Is-Ballooning-Fast/
Hmm Ron @ 182
Very ugly indeed. Looks like the folk who worked within the system to generate CC, and who have worked within the system to do nothing about it, may find that the internal dynamics of the same system might lead to such a profound economic depression that the problem is solved in the worst way possible.
Congratulations, William, you did not break your own rules.
I am not sure I would be relying on the UN to come up with what I would call ‘just’ resolutions.
Any organisation that would have Libya chairing its Human Rights Committee would have to be a bit suss on the justice side. That, plus who gets to veto stuff, for example, Russia – run by a twice – risen KGB souffle.
Therefore I wouldn’t put a lot of energy into arguing the ins and outs of the wording of the UN resolutions. They may form a framework for making debating points. In practice, they have not made a skerrick of difference to date and are unlikely to do so in the future. In fact, you could argue that they are designed to ensure that nothing gets done.
Normally, I would be with Adam on the importance of the history bit. But, with the main players continually creating current ‘facts’, ‘history’ might also be a bit irrelevant here.
The real questions appear to be:
(1) ‘Is might right?’
(2) Will a sufficient body of Palestinians and engaged muslims more broadly ever give up?
(3) Will Israel ever be able to cut a deal with all the Palestinians?
(4) Or will the impasse last indefinitely, or until the Palestinians get the upper hand militarily, whichever comes first?
If we look at these questions then the real questions start about the rocket killing of random Israelis, the bombing of Gaza, the killing of Hamas leaders and followers, the associated killings of civilians and the deliberate destruction of a physical infrastructure.
Bludgers, if you haven’t already done so, have a look at the Townsend link posted by William in the intro. There is some interesting stuff on the thought processes of some of the recently successful folk.
IMHO we will be getting more of the same following the next NSW state elections.
Furthermore, all these written words are just blah, blah, blah and blah as there WILL NEVER be peace in that land because their Gods are angry. Yahweh, God and Allah are angry. Yes, the birth place of these religious that were to bring peace, love and harmony to the World.
The Gods are angry because their name and teaching have been abused by their own “chosen” people, especially for their worldly political ends. Their Gods have condemned and cursed them until their chosen people repent and reconcile their wayward ways. I say let them blow each other into smitherin, they deserve each other.
A good Sunday to all. It was very painful to watch Haydo’s painful batting. Put him into rest.
Some good economic news for some. QLD is expected to power ahead next year with a growth rate about twice that of NSW and VIC… “ABOUT 1000 new jobs will be created in Queensland every week this year as growth in “the lucky state” continues to power ahead despite the economic downturn”…
It is still possible I think that Mr Rudd will be able to gain seats in QLD at the next federal election, to offset any that may be lost in NSW.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24870554-952,00.html
Re Centre @ 139…
Thanks for your enquiry about my ancestry.
My ancestry is roughly 75% English and 25% Orange. Presumably the later comes from Scots who moved to Northern Ireland at some stage in the past.
I must say I do admire your creative take on being unbiased…
“I would contribute money to supply Palestine with the same quantity of weapons” (#69) and “I’m starting to think Mel Gibson was right.” (# 243 from previous string)
I see also that at #243 (last string) you indicated that you agreed with Vera (#241) who said “If the arabs blast them off the face of the earth they won’t get too much sympathy from me” and then went on to excuse suicide bombing on the basis that its “their only possible form of attack” (apart from the missiles I suppose).
I strongly doubt that Iran having nuclear weapons would be a great help… “If Iran developed nukes, you may end up with peace in the middle east” (#246).
While you are there Fargo 61, why don’t you repeat all my posts on the conflict, instead of a few chosen lines in isolation which misrepresent my point.
Fact 1. I did say that I would contribute money to provide Palestine with the SAME amount of weapons. Note: same amount, not more, not less, the same amount. I would like to see peace in the Middle East. That would be one way of ensuring so, in my view.
Fact 2. You have implied that I would be willing to contribute money to a terrorist organisation. I find that GROSSLY offensive and outrageous. Feel free to APOLOGISE. NOTE: Everybody can read for themselves exactly what has been said.
Also, I do not like conceding that we (the West) appear to be wrong on this entire debacle. Israel is letting us down.
Article from the Austrailan on recent polling in Israel…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24866269-15084,00.html
Centre,
I did not imply anything. I quoted you directly, and those quotes cast doubt in my mind on your claim to be ‘unbiased’. I have not changed my opinion.
I make no claim to be ‘unbiased’, for as Winston Churchill said (although I can’t just now remember about precisely what he was referring to) “I am not impartial as between the fire and the fire brigade”.
I infer from your posts that you do not regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation, whereas I do. I believe that any organisation that facilitates suicide bombing is a terrorist organisation.
Article from the Australian… Israel ground troops move into Gaza…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24871330-601,00.html
Adam,
Re your “IF Gaza turns out well, Livni and Barak will do better If it turns out badly, Netanyahu will romp home.”
Can you please give a rough indication of what you think would be perceived as turning out well?
Presumably low troop casualties and a fairly quick withdrawl would be needed, but what about continued missile attacks from Hamas? I presume that it is practically impossible for Israel to stop such attacks entirely, but what could be regarded as a success in political terms with an election due soon?
Fargot 61. Yes, you did. My post @ 189, Fact 2. Stands.
And yes, I am unbiased over the situation in the Middle East. If you think that I lean towards one side over the other, then maybe the Israeli’s should take a good look at their behaviour.
As you ARE obviously biased, according to your 126 post, I am not interested in any further discussion with you.
AUSTRALIA will not take any former inmates of the US’ Guantanamo Bay detention centre, acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard says.
(Thank goodness that Malcom Turnbull was available to give his sage advice).
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24868838-601,00.html
Centre, if you’re going to play in the Middle East sandpit, which I don’t recommend, you need to toughen up a bit. Nobody owes you an apology. I also don’t know what you think you’re achieving by repeatedly proclaiming yourself to be “unbiased”, other than making yourself look foolish.
My thoughts precisley
I find it astonishing that if someone who looks at a situation with an open mind and then concludes that one side has crossed the line – they are considered biased.
I have never said that I support Hamas or that I would consider contributing to a terrorist organisation – that is ABSURD.
The point that I am making, is that if both sides were on a level playing field, then you may have a shot at peace. Surely intelligent people can see that.
On Guantanamo Bay
MalcolmTturnbull, just how incompetent is this bloke? He’s read the papers and listened to the news and then opened his mouth without getting his facts straight. He thought Obama had made the request for us to take prisoners when it was the Libs lord and master Bush!
I notice they didn’t say a word when earier in 2008 Bush asked us to take prisioners. That would be because whatever Bush told Howard to do he jumped to attention and the Libs obeyed. Had they still been in power Howard wouldn’t have had the guts to say no to Bush. Hell he would have accepted the whole prision full and set them up somewhere like Woollongong ( a strong ALP electorate)
But when Malcolm thought it was Obama asking suddenly it is an outrage and their reaction was completly opposite. What a pack of hypocrites.
Julia isn’t letting Turnbull get away with it either , good on her.
Link
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/03/2458564.htm?section=australia
Vera
his lack of depth and constant attempts to be relevant, are proof enough he fully deserves the monniker “talcum”
with of course apologies to talcum powder which is useful (something I think poor MT is incapable of)
BTW dont know if you caught his soundbite re the republic “I would wait till her majesty Queen Elizabeth 2 passes away”
next it will be “I would wait till his majesty King William passes away”
and so on……
Dont let this man near the republican movement ever
Gusface, that loud dramatic voice and serious face Talcum puts on whenever he’s in front of a camera is enough to make you cringe. Oh the embarrassment if he was our PM and the world copped a look at him!
An excellent article on the futility of its military solution.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/03/israel-attack-hamas-gaza-peace
You can almost substitute:
Germany has plenty of tactics for war, but none for peace – A leadership dazzled by its own military might ignores the political reality and believes the only solutions lie in force
Japan has plenty of tactics for war, but none for peace – A leadership dazzled by its own military might ignores the political reality and believes the only solutions lie in force – China/2WW.
USA has plenty of tactics for war, but none for peace – A leadership dazzled by its own military might ignores the political reality and believes the only solutions lie in force – Vietnam
USSR has plenty of tactics for war, but none for peace – A leadership dazzled by its own military might ignores the political reality and believes the only solutions lie in force – Afghanistan
USA has plenty of tactics for war, but none for peace – A leadership dazzled by its own military might ignores the political reality and believes the only solutions lie in force – Iraq
Nothing has changed.
But what could be regarded as a success in political terms with an election due soon?
Winning the election………………..
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20001222ib.html
If it was anywhere else in the world it would be called apartheid ( what was that spelling rule again; i before e except after c).
There will be no solution until Israel has to pay for it’s own weapons, not going to happen. Tension would be reduced if Israel was a secular society, but that isn’t going to happen either. It’s been going on for thousands of years, its a bit of dirt that was won and lost before the Romans took an interest in it. If you want to be sickened by the actions of either side actually read the first testament, killing in the name of god does not make it right.
Taking sides is a complete waste of time, no matter what they will still be fighting long after we are dead.
On things electoral, I was watching the count of the Minnesota Sentate race absentee votes (yes, sad) at http://www.theuptake.org and was left wondering if it were possible to extend this sort of attention to other places. If, say, a recount was asked for here in Aust, could we also have camera’s there live-streaming us the count results? And while its absolutely fabulous (no, no pun here…move along…) that we have sites like this live blogging elections, could we have results fed from say individual counting centres? I know its an enormous effort, but most major parties have scrutineers at most polling places, so why not webcam overview/live blog from polling centres?
Actually I can see a mess of logistical issues here, but the thought still remains – how DO we ensure a really open and transparent system, especially around counting? Got to add, though, the commentary about the various aspects of the Minnesota stautes and rumours/politics was pretty interesting too.
Oh, and while we’re here discussing Israel-Palestine issues, perhaps we could also cast a thought out for the other, ongoing, major wars/conflicts such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Darfur, Somalia, DRC, other ongoing conflicts/insurgencies like Eritrea, Mali-Niger-Algeria-Libya [Taureg uprising], Western Sahara, PKK-Turkey, Colombia; and ongoing regional sources of prior and potential conflict such as Bouganville-Solomon Islands and the Phillipines.
Hey Ron – great comments. Adam – didn’t you used to work for Michael Danby? Mightn’t that colour your perception of this conflict? No problem if it does but IF it does, it may provide some insight into your position. Oh, and by that I mean, having worked for a pro-Israel MP (who also campaigns on anti-semitic and racism issues) could colour the way you formulate arguments on this subject.
Kill em all – let God sort it out! ffs
btw – I was talking about those on PB that continue with this circle-jerk of comments… not the Israelis or Palestinians/Hama’s whatever
Anyone see John Howard interviewed during the Cricket today? His fraud continues, he had to have a pink tie on during the interview, of course, to support the McGrath Foundation, but he did not wear one to the cricket.
So he “borrows” Shane Warne’s tie, and the guy doing the interview picks him up on it.
He is still all spin – no substance.
Warne assisting Howard in matters of spin? Who would have thought!
Stewart J, yes I did used to work for Michael Danby, and I learned a lot from him and other members of the Jewish community I met while working for him. One thing I learned was: If you want to test your ability as a debater, try having an argument with Jews. The Talmudic tradition is alive and well even among secular Jews. My views on the Middle East however arise from nearly 40 years of watching and reading. I would not have worked for Danby had I not already been in broad agreement with his views. (He is by the way a moderate in terms of the Jewish community, since he supports a two-state solution.) I’m old enough to have watched the whole sorry saga of the “Palestinian resistance” from the first airplane hijackings in 1970, and a more futile and self-defeating exercise it is hard to imagine. The Israeli Labour government would probably have withdrawn from most of the territory occupied in 1967 (though not Jerusalem) within a few years had the Arab states been willing to recognise Israel and had the PLO not launched its campaign of terrorism.
Fargo
My take on ‘excellently’ well would be to replace Hamas with Fatah. This would require moving Fatah fighters back into Gaza from the West Bank. It would then first require them to capture or kill most of the Hamas fighters. This would take a full scale, total occupation of Gaza for months. Gaza is different in this respect because it lacks the strategic depth that Hezbollah had in Lebanon. In this scenario, the Israelis here would also risk Obama not doing exactly the same thing after an election as he was talking before an election. A lengthy occupation would also cause great collatoral damage – vis a vis the Golan, vis a vis the vulnerability of moderate arab governments to maintain themselves.
Significant troop casualties would, I suspect, not be a problem if Hamas was basically eliminated and replaced with Fatah.
Short of that, I also suspect you are right on not being able to completely stop the missiles. Is, after all, asymmetrical warfare. The question then will be how well Israeli domestic expectations are managed and how that matches with how long before the missiles start going back over? How many of them? Again, for Israeli domestic politics, if the missiles start landing after the election, the pressue will be off.
Adam
What would your response be to the expulsion of Israeli Arabs?
As part of an overall settlement I think all Palestinians should live in the Palestinian state and all Jews/Israelis in the Israeli state. If Arabs currently resident in Israel choose to identify as Israeli, that would include them, but my understanding is that most of them identify as Palestinian. It would be possible to redraw the border in the South Galillee area to put the majority of Palestinians currently in Israel into Palestine, as part of an overall drawing of final boundaries.
Adam @ 214
Thanks. I think you are right on identification, there are apparently 100,000 of them demontrating more or less as we write.
I don’t know, but I imagine that most of them would want to stay, regardless of whether they identify as Israeli or Palestinian. They would have low status but the opportunity to share in security and a growing economy. Any Palestinian
State (assuming it accepts Palestinian refugees from camps all over), is likely to be an economic basket case, and highly unstable politically, into the indefinite future.
Would your approach involve forcing Palestinian-identifing Arab Israeli to shift?
A final settlement would entail drawing boundaries between Israel and Palestine, giving the best possible separation between Jews and Arabs. Those who found themselves on the wrong side of the line would have to be resettled, either in the corresponding state or elsewhere, no doubt at the expense of the international community. I am of course unhappy at the idea of forcible resettlement, but in the peculiar circumstances of Israel-Palestine it will probably be inevitable. The obvious precedent is the Greeks and Turks, who get on much better now that they live in separate states. Israel is a Jewish state, and can’t be expected to accommodate a large and growing population who do not accept that premise. If the Israeli Arabs want to be Israelis, they’re not helping their case by increasingly indentifying with the rejectionist Palestinians, as seems to be the case.
Whether a Palestinian state would be a basket case economically or politically would be up to the Palestinians. They would have many rich friends, including the Saudis and the EU, with a strong incentive to be generous. They would need to find a leadership which is neither corrupt nor obsessed with martyrdom and jihad. The precedents in the rest of the Arab world are not encouraging on that, but it is possible.
Adam – I’ve really have enjoyed reading your comments today, thanks much.
Any time
Adam, for us ignoramus, please explain exactly:
1. what is a “Jewish State”
2. what makes it so special.
3. would you have problem if other ’states” apply the same principle, eg: an Australian state, an Indian state, an Iraqi state etc etc.
Adam’s view on so called “rejectionists”, presumably those that want something more than being kicked out of their homes and treated like second class citizens, is also interesting.
Ironic considering Israel only exists due to forcible resettlement.
Finns
Far from being an ignoramus,I prefer being a snuffleuffagus and yet I dont get what a “jewish state” is.
Maybe we should classify All countries by religion
Gus, China has about 100 millions non-Chinese Han minorities. If we are to apply the Adam’s Principle, what should China do with these large and growing population who do not accept that premise.
Shoot them? kill them? nuke them? deport them to Israel?
If you choose to identify as an ignoramus, Finns, I’ll have to take you at your word.
1. A Jewish state is a state founded by Jews, as a national home for the Jewish people, on land which is the historic homeland of the Jews.
2. Only its relative newness. Most states in the world regard themselves as being the state of the particular people that live in it. Australia is one of the minority of states which do not do so, because we are a settler state with an official commitment to multiculturalism.
3. Most states, other than settler states, and particularly older states which existed before the colonial era, do apply that principle. China, Russia, Germany, Japan, France – all apply variants of the “jus sanguinis”, which equates citizenship with “blood” (ie, race). Israel does not define nationality by blood, but rather by religion – any Jew, whether by birth or conversion, who moves to Israel is an Israeli citizen. This also applies to non-religious Jews (that is people who have a Jewish mother but do not practise Judaism), provided they have not adopted another religion.
Regarding the Coalition Senate ticket in Victoria, I suspect that deal was made when the State Coalition was formed.
Peter Ryan’s decision didn’t make much sense to me at the time, but if you throw in a Senate seat and cost savings from probable joint Legislative Council tickets the deal has at least some merit for the Nats.
The Chinese constitution guarantees equality of citizenship to defined non-Han peoples, such as the Mongols and Tibetans. But it is very difficult for a foreigner to become a Chinese citizen.
Finns
Exactly!
I think if the veil of religion is removed the true geopolitical reason comes into play.
A western footprint in the middle east is all I see of the state of Israel
Outremer was its name back during the crusades
Ah, now the true ignoramus has revealed himself. Non-ignoramuses recall that Britain and France strongly opposed the creation of Israel, and that among the first states to recognise Israel was the USSR.
Adam, when comes to this, i will wear the ignoramus badge with honour. I will even wear Gusface’s snuffleuffagus. It sounds 10 times worse than ignoramus.
As you wish. I prefer knowledge to ignorance. As Chairman Mao says: “No investigation, no right to speak.”
Adam
“Ah, now the true ignoramus has revealed himself. Non-ignoramuses recall that Britain and France strongly opposed the creation of Israel, and that among the first states to recognise Israel was the USSR.”
So now your saying Israel is a creation of the USSR
you sir are a DOLT
Adam,
The Tao doesn’t take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.
The Master doesn’t take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners.
The Tao is like a bellows:
it is empty yet infinitely capable.
The more you use it, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it, the less you understand.
Kindly don’t misrepresent what I say. Israel is a creation of the Jewish people. But it’s a fact that the USSR actively supported its creation, and that their proxies the Czechs sold the Jewish Agency large quantities of arms before and during the War of Independence.
Finns, I’m a historical materialist, not a Taoist.
Adam, You have my deepest sympathy
I’m going shopping now. Salaam alaykum.
Adam
A cuppla links to help you find the facts
http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/viewArticle.arc?articleId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1948-05-15-04-002&pageId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1948-05-15-04
Trumans official recognition of Israel may 14 1948
http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/viewArticle.arc?articleId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1917-11-09-07-010&pageId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1917-11-09-07
The Balfour declaration
I think it is highly dubious for people to say Israel shouldnt kill off Hamas…it’s like saying America shouldnt eliminate Al-Qaeda it’s madness…
Gus, I’m very familiar with those documents. What’s your point?
Adam
the west has been pivotal to Israel’s creation,as per my earlier post
Those two links help those that would in someway associate the USSR with Israel’s creation and somehow claim Russian hegemony over Israe
I never said anything about “Russian hegemony.” I said that the USSR supported the creation of Israel, while Britain and France opposed it, which are facts, and facts which go to disprove your silly assertion that Israel was all an imperialist plot. The Balfour Declaration is irrelevant to this, because the British changed their position in the 1930s, as everybody knows (why do you think Begin blew up the King David Hotel?). The US under Roosevelt also opposed a Jewish state. Under Truman the US changed its view, partly because of Truman’s personal philo-Semitism, partly because of the urgent situation of the Jewish refugees in Europe, partly because of his need for Jewish votes at the 1948 election. No-one denies that US support was important in getting the Partition Plan accepted at the UN, but that is a long way from proving that Israel was created as a western plot, or whatever. US support for Israel has always been opposed by the State Department on the grounds that undermines the US strategic position in the Arab world.
Adam
your will’o'wisp argument is going nowhere.
The Balfour declaration was a defacto signal to the Zionist movement (read the Times article-it says those exact words) to creat a State under the Aegis of the west (led of course by the UK at that stage)
BTW I never said “that Israel was a Western imperialist plot”-merely a creation of the West.
The new Murray Darling Basin Authority site is at:
http://www.mdba.gov.au/
Water storages in the MDB as at 24 Dec were at 22%. A disaster in the making. The December rains were mostly being soaked up by ultra-dry catchments but did take pressure off irrigation requirements.
Yes, it was. Likewise, the repudiation of the Balfour Declaration in the 1930s was a withdrawal of that signal. The British fought tooth and nail to prevent the creation of Israel, and they only give in in 1948 because they were bankrupt and couldn’t afford to carry on.
This is just factually false. The facts on the ground in Palestine were created by the Jewish militias in the teeth of British resistance. The Partition Plan was the doing of the UN, where it had the support of everyone except the Arab/Islamic world. Israel came into existence when the Jews declared it to do so, and it was then immediately recognised by both the US and the USSR.
Adam
Could you please provide a link to support your repudiation claims.
Also i would be interested as to how then you would classify Israel,If it is not the creation of the west as you asset, ie theocracy,etc
“If it is not the creation of the west as you asset” asset=assert
Gusface, this might help a little. Wikipedia has heaps of info on all aspects of Israel,s history and formation with lots of further links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
In 1936 the Peel Commission recommended that Palestine be partitioned into a Jewish and an Arab state. The British government rejected the recommendations, and appointed the Woodhead Commission, which in 1938 recommended that only a small coastal strip be given to the Jews, and not as an independent state. Both sides rejected this. In 1939 the McDonald White Paper formally repudiated Britain’s support for a Jewish state, instead recommending a binational state in which the two sides would be represented proportionate to population. If implemented, this would have produced an Arab-majority government and the probable expulsion of the Jewish population. Not surprisingly the Jews rejected this – recall that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, then the Palestinian leader, had spent the war years in Berlin.
More here showing that the Jewish Agency, a Jerwish leadership Group in the then British Mandate of Palestine, formed under ther League of nations, formed the “State” of Israel themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
Scorps
Cheers.
Having had two business partners (one baghdad born,both ‘67 vets) who were jewish and Israeli (now bona fide aussies) back in the 90’s, I understand the nature of Israel and the Jewish aspiration for a homeland and its subsequent acceptance by all parties.
I merely wish to assert that Israel is a creation of the west-not the Africans,Asians,S Americans etc.
Its current invasion does no good to its reputation.
A theocracy is a state ruled by priests. I suppose a Jewish theocracy would be a state ruled by rabbis, although they are not priests, only teachers. Israel was founded by secular Zionists, most of them socialists. They were emphatically opposed to rule by rabbis, although of course Judaism is the state religion and non-Jews do suffer some disabilities in matters like marriage law. It’s only since Likud came to power in 1977 that the secular character of Israel has to some extent been eroded, a development most Israelis deplore. If Israel didn’t have such a stupid electoral system, the religious fringe would not have gained the power it now has.
The long and the short of it is that the people of Gaza and the West Bank can choose self-determination, statehood and peace anytime they want. But so far they have mostly chosen war – or at least, war has been chosen for them (imposed upon them) by their leaders.
The greatest tragedy of the present conflict is that it is completely avoidable. The deaths we are seeing – like all the deaths of the last 60 years – will accomplish absolutely nothing for the stateless people of Gaza and the West Bank. The grotesque reality is that many prefer death – even for their children – than peace and life.
This is the nauseating truth of decades of misrule and false promise by the warriors of Palestine.
You really are a slow learner, aren’t you? Why don’t you go and read a good history of Israel? Even the Wikipedia article would do. Then you would see that Israel was created by the Jews themselves, not by any foreign agency. What did it have to do with “Africans,Asians,S Americans etc”? Nearly all of Africa and Asia were under foreign rule in 1948. My recollection is that about half the Latin American states voted for the Partition Plan, but so what? The Partition Plan did not create Israel – since it was rejected by the Arabs, it never came into effect. Israel was created by the Jews themselves.
Adam
Insults aside, I suggest that you
1. understand Judaism is a way of life-religion being intrinsic to it-therefore Israel is and always shall be a theocracy,albeit a “westernised” version.
2.understand that without the West’s tacit approval and support Israel would not exist.
QED Israel is and always shall be a “western” creation
Finns 203
Thanks for that link. I am strongly opposed to the Israeli tactics, although have read suggestions of the opposite military motive. The comparative failure of the Israeli military in the 2006 invasion of Lebanon was deeply embarrassing for the IDF. They are anxious to show that they have improved since then. Hence the rocket attacks in this case suited them – they want to invade to “restore their reputation” as a capable military force.
I don’t know if thats true, but it just goes to show how hard it is to identify motives over there. No doubt part of it was a desire to use force while they still could; before Obama takes office.
Please note I’m just trying to understand the thought process that led to invasion; I’m not suggesting the decision itself was legal, moral or sane. I think it will bog down into another messy Ramallah-style stalemate.
It might also be noted that the Jordanian Army which attacked Israel in May 1948 was commanded by Lieutenant-General Sir John Glubb and staffed by British officers on secondment to the King of Transjordan. So much for British support for Israel!
More here.
[Eleven minutes after the Declaration of Independence was signed, President Truman de facto recognized the State of Israel, followed by Iran (which had voted against the UN partition plan), Guatemala, Iceland, Nicaragua, Romania and Uruguay. The Soviet Union was the first nation to recognize Israel de jure on 17 May 1948, followed by Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Ireland and South Africa.[11] The United States extended official recognition on 31 January 1949.}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)
Not what most people would regard as “the West” except the US and the official recognition was a bit belated. Iran was a surprise.
I’ve already dealt with this, but even if it’s true, so what? “The West” (whatever that is) also created most of the currently existing states in the world. Japan’s constitution was written by General Macarthur. China is ruled by followers of Marxism, a western ideology. India was created by the British, Indonesia by the Dutch. Most of Africa’s national boundaries were created by the Congress of Berlin. What does this prove? These states, like Israel, now exist, and are accepted as legitimate. Israel has in fact existed longer than most of them.
Scopio
Iran was a client stae of the West (shah anyone) so no surprise there.
truman recognised as Pres on 15 may 48
but anyway I’ll just go on in my uninformed way.
Adam
so marx was “western”
Hmmmmm
He was a secular Jew born in Trier, western Germany. How much more western can you get?
Ideologically old boy ideologically
anyway continue your belief that marx was ‘western’, up there with the earth is flat
Gusface, Iran was very much “not” a client State in 1948. It was not until 1953 that Eisenhower arranged for the PM, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh to be deposed and started supporting the new Shah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran
Scorpio
Cheers again
Iran was a belligerent when it recognised Israel?
I don’t think Iran was too happy with being invaded in 1941 by Britain & the USSR. BP and Exon had a big stake there too and didn’t like it too much when Iran nationalised their oil industry assets.
I think you could say it was definitely belligerent towards the “west” in 1948.
Gusface, I’m not sure whether you’re being flippant or you really are that stupid, but either way I’m not going to respond to such puerility.
Re Iran: Mossadegh was not in power in 1948. During WW2 the Allies deposed the Shah and installed his young son, and the country was put under effective Allied control (”Allies” here including the USSR, which occupied the Caspian Sea coast area). I’m note sure who was calling the shots in 1948, but historically the Shi’a Iranians have never been very friendly with the Sunni Arabs, so they were probably happy to recognise Israel to keep in good with the Americans and the Soviets.
Nevertheless, Iran remained economically dependent on the West, to the chagrin of the Shah, who chose to ally himself with Nazi Germany. During World War II, Britain and the USSR invaded Iran, in order to enable the US to supply provisions to the USSR via Iran’s railways. The Shah was deposed and exiled in 1941, and his son, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, was crowned in his place.
After the war, Iranian Member of Parliament Mohammed Mutzadak led a broad movement which demanded that the British-controlled oilfields be nationalized. The Shah attempted to appoint a prime minister who opposed the nationalization, but his candidate was assassinated in 1950.
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3284215,00.html
As I understand The Shah formally recognised Israel
Shah= King
Very well cut-n-pasted, Gusface, and only a few minutes after Scorpio and I already posted this information. We’ll make a historian of you yet.
Adam
Except old boy I am not selective in my quoting of sources
ps I presume I can quote you freely re marxism being a “western” ideology I presume?
Ohhh
one more thing:
the term “eastern bloc” refers to Marx’s investment unit in the suburbs I suppose.
Gusface, cheap sarcasm doesn’t become you when you are displaying such complete and total ignorance. The term “Eastern bloc” referred to eastern Europe, which is still part of the “west” in a cultural sense. And Marx died in 1883, so it has nothing to do with him at all anyway. His political ideas grew out a long tradition of German and other European thought. Where else would they have come from? Buddhism? Marx despised non-western cultures, as his writings make clear. He even despised the Russians, who were at least semi-western in the 19th century.
Dinner time. I’m on a plane tomorrow so this fascinating history seminar will have to put on hold till I come back.
Adam
In usual parlance the following is generally understood
west =capitalism,democracy
east=communism,totalitarianism
which side of the fence was Marx on???
All the Bludgers who used to hate the GG will now be able to love the way it has kept up its GG standards. Not content with happily supporting Rudd’s CC policies, the GG is now also looking forward with fond expectations for the Obama Presidency.
Sheridan is asserting a BushBama Convergence (presumably one to match the HowRudd Convergence.)
‘Obama has abandoned the leftist rhetoric of much of his political career and shown himself to be what I always hoped he would be, a pragmatic, non-ideological wheeler-dealer pol from Chicago. Guys like that worry about re-election from the day they are elected, and they govern from the Centre. They govern where the people are at.’
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24741960-25377,00.html
Adam
Thanks for putting your views on the table. As you know, I don’t agree with some of them, but I appreciated the fact that you were willing to spell them out.
I wouldn’t mind seeing your views on whether Israeli Governments, by continuing to allow the creation of successive and ever-expanding waves of settlements since 1948, have contributed in a destructive way to today’s status quo. In other words, has it taken two to tango, to at least some extent?
Secondly, do you think it is feasible that Israel’s crazy religious right will ever ‘allow’ a settlement which does not include further, or all, substantial slabs of ‘Eretz Israel’? (I think it is called that – Greater Israel, as per the full Biblical monty.)
Oh dear, that soon?
More oiliness from Obi Admin. The Hillary mob must be quietly dancing in the street as Richardson was the “judas” who sold out Hillary for the 12 silvers.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2009/01/04/richardson_withdraws_as_commer.html?hpid=topnews
Seems like the Gunns mill is back on. =/
Apparently Gunns executives are saying that Garrett will give it approval today.
I cant understand the half spoken belief on this blog that US/Israel policy will soften under Obama. Obama has appointed Rahm Emmanuel as his Chief of Staff. When the first Gulf War broke out, Rahm rushed off to join the IDF, not the US military.
You don’t even need to go to Rahm Emmanuel. Everything Obama’s said has been pro-Israel. The fact that he is President is by small part a result of that.
Can someone please tell me what is wrong with that? Why govern where the people aint? The moment a government fails to govern “where the people are at” there is hell to pay from one side or the other. That doesn’t mean that “the people” can’t be gradually moved to another position, they can, but “gradually” is the key word.
A government that goes ahead of public opinion or lags behind it does so at their own peril and rightly so.
Are we seriously calling Obama’s pre-election rhetoric, which including tax cuts, threatening to unilaterally bomb Pakistan and keeping Republicans in the cabinet “leftist”?
Glen, another conservative government running a deficit.
Irish PM says balancing budget may take up to five years
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24873695-12377,00.html
These bloody conservative governments are useless aren’t they Glen?
Gary, the WA budget, from record surpluses under Carpenter, is likely to go in to deficit. And O’Farrell in NSW says he may run a bigger deficit than Rees.
There is nothing wrong with a deficit as long as it isn’t large or prolonged.
I’m with you Bob (280). It’s hard convincing Glen of that though. Oh, and Malcolm.
I’ve enjoyed reading Adam’s wonderful slipperiness on the formation of Israel. Of course Israel is not the creation of Britain much like the US is not the creation of the British Empire. Technically true, but you get connection. Britain’s Jewish little Ulster was an old colonial trick. Promote the minority, they will hate them more than they hate you.
He’s absolutely right on Marx, though. He considered himself the logical successor to western European thought.
Adem said
“Israel was created by the Jews themselves.”
Not a smart position to take Adam, created by force, destroyed by force, and life goes on.
Well the 1978 cabinet papers are our:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/specials/0,,5018548,00.html
Frazer can hold is head up with pride, I bet Howard won’t be able to in 29 years.
Its quite disjointed going from federal to world politics. I wonder if William would consider a separate thread for world affairs?? I suspect the answer may be NO due to the US thread experience, but worth asking!!
Meanwile, a cross promotion for Possum’s latest- showing us in his usual style how Rudd is much more popular than Howard was in his first term as PM
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/
Gary
The Libs always believe in a balance budget cycle, which include spending when the economy tanks and running surpluses during good times
It is Swan who promised that we will always have a surplus at the last election
I think that is what you are looking for
Dovif I think GB’s point is that the libs jump up and down about deficits unless its their side of politics is doing it- its the LABOR deficits that are bad…And for your reference the surplus promise was “over the budget cycle” which techincally allows a deficit over part of the cycle
It seems they were wrong
http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/garrett-rejects-gunns-2b-mill/2009/01/05/1231003903869.html
I agree with the Piping Shrike. I enjoyed Adams treatise on the realpolitik of the middle east, and largely agree with it, but a history of Israel the doesnt mention factors such as the Haganah, Stern Gang etc is akin to a history of Australia not mentioning the convicts. He has later made some mention of Begin in scant recompense.
One of the unrecognised factors in the tradgedy that is the middle east is that the Palestinians are reminded every hour of every day that terrorism DOES work, just not (yet?) for them. The financial meltdown in the US may bring some sanity to the Israeli govt.
286 – Now come on dovif. You know as well as I do the Libs have made going into deficit a sin of massive proportions. So what you’re telling me now is that Malcolm should agree with Swan that a deficit during a cycle now is not a bad thing?
You can swivel all you like on this one but the Libs are being found out on this.
“The Libs always believe in a balance budget cycle, which include spending when the economy tanks and running surpluses during good times”
Dovif, when was the last time a federal Liberal endorsed a deficit during a recession?
Please do tell.
Hell, the Libs have done such a good job of demonising deficits over the years that the media have even seen deficits as a failure of government.
Typical Libs argument dovif. You now want to turn the “do we have a deficit or not” into a “broken promise” argument. Good tactic but full of holes I’m afraid.
GB, yes, full of holes, but unfortunately filling the vacuum that is lib policy these days, because of course they are the superior economic managers and will win the next election because the economy went bad…
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20070627-Why-John-Howard-never-made-the-cover-of-Euromoney.html
Christian Kerr, Crikey.com.au, 27 June 2007
Howard treasurer, Fraser prime minister:
Budget deficit (underlying cash balance)
1981-82 0.3% of GDP surplus
1982-83 1.7% of GDP
1983-84 3.3% of GDP
Willis treasurer, Keating PM:
Budget deficit (underlying cash balance)
1994-95 2.7% of GDP
1995-96 1.9% of GDP
1996-97 1.0% of GDP
Very selective figures Cuppa as usual…
Don’t you talk about selective figures Glen, your side has turned that into an art form.
Both sides do it but this is a joke…how about showing the figures from 1989-1993??? They wouldnt tell a good story would they Gary?
THe developed world was in a recession in 1991, it is good to run a deficit during a recession, it helps the economy grow faster once the recession ends.
I mean hey, that’s what John Howard did when he was treasurer, so it can’t be bad.
297 – you just made the case, Glen, why the Libs were wrong just to concerntrate on those bad times during what was a successful 13 year old government overall. Thanks for that.
The only thing wrong that the left can say was wrong about the Howard decade was because he made one policy mistake the one that cost him the election…I’m not saying Keating/Hawke did everything wrong they did alot right but they did not in the last half of the Labor Years do a good job at managing the economy…At least Howard and Co can say they left the country in better shape then how they recieved it…
Treasurer Keating handed down four surplus budgets: real surpluses with no asset sales or mining boom hiding underlying deficits.
Gunns thinks they can still build the mill:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/specials/environment/or-has-he/2009/01/05/1231003922260.html
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has called on Hamas militants to stop firing rockets into southern Israel and has urged both parties to negotiate a ceasefire.
“Any diplomatic solution must find a way in bringing a halt to rocket attacks against Israel by the terrorist organisation Hamas,” he said.
“Any diplomatic solution must also bring about a halt to armed shipments into Gaza.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/05/2459488.htm
I am very pleased that our Prime Minister has shown leadership on this.
Dario (# 288)
Thank you for the link to the Gunns article.
It seems that Gunns have more hide than a rhinocerous… “The company believes that further environmental studies should be paid for by the Government because it has already invested $100 million in the project”
Typical, one-sided response that will reassure the Jewish lobby, but expected.
The reference to Hamas as a terrorist organisation is interesting, though not novel. By what definition does he, and many other countries, class Hamas as terrorists?
As a journalist from The Independent whose father and cousin were killed by an Israeli airstrike on their farmstead yesterday put it “What’s the difference between those who drop bombs from planes and blew my father to pieces and those who fire home made rockets into Israel?”
People would say “Oh Israel is targeting terrorist infrastructure”. That brings up a number of issues. Firstly, Israel has denounced the elected government of Palestine as a terrorist organisation which gives it leeway to target and destroy government buildings and services like the police, which it has. Secondly, they are clearly targeting civilian areas unconnected to terrorism such as that man’s house, a university, schools, markets and mosques. And finally, it suggests that all Hamas has to do is say “We’re targetting Israeli military and government infrastructure” to give their attacks legitimacy.
OZ, what other message could they give their shareholders?
Here’s an interesting concluding remark from a piece by Robert Gottliebsen in the Business Spectator, Jul 2008:
I can’t think of a project where a company has sufficient freehold resources and has committed to meeting incredible emissions standards to be unable to obtain money in Australia because of the green ‘fear factor’. I think we will look back on the Gunns affair as a fork in the road where Australia’s banking industry became too ‘politically correct’.
Earlier, he remarked that
Environment Minister Peter Garrett says that 12 out of 16 project ‘modules’ are still awaiting approval. Given the legislation and earlier decisions they should not provide a problem. Still, nothing is certain.
So I’d say any fear on the part of the banks is less “green” than “garrett”!
So firing 80 or more rockets a day into Israel is OK and not an act of terrorism?
Enjaybee the whole thing is a disgrace. Israel is the ilegitimate country. The palestinian state should be set up and fair borders for all. Unless this happens there will be no peace. Israel should be allowed to exist and acknowledged by the arab states
Two problems with HowRudd (and BushObama, if Sheridan is right):
1. allowing re-election to dominate policy decisions
2. heading for the centre, ‘balanced’ and ‘practical’ decisions when the problem (CC response) does not allow for traditional ‘balanced’ and ‘practical’ responses.
Example. If Howard has made a decision to unilaterally run a 5% ETS 12 years ago, would the MDB still have had 22% in its storages as at 12 December 2008?
Almost certainly.
Centaur I agree the whole thing is a disgrace but every time the Palestinians are given an opportunity to set up their own state they knock it back presumably because some of the hardheads will not agree to the existence of the state of Israel under any circumstance. They trot out the same old reason for their actions every time, i.e that Israel is a terrorist state and so they have every reason to carry out their acts of terrorism against Israel and will not stop until every Jew has been annihilated. It has always seemed to me the old chicken and egg analogy. Instead of who came first, who committed the first act of terrorism. Unfortunately, I think they will still be arguing the same thing in a hundred years.
UMR Research report on republicanism. “Don’t know” up since six months ago. “Men and younger Australians more in favour of a republic”. Thank/blame Women’s Weekly, I guess. “Australians want to elect the president” – and how.
The people of Gaza and the West Bank are in a pitiable position, it’s true. They have been and continue to be routinely sacrificed by their own leadership and habitually exploited in power-games by the reactionaries of Teheran or the gangsters of Damascas and (in the past) Baghdad.
The only ones to benefit from the conflict now being played out are the leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah and their sponsors in Iran, who must be thrilled to bits to see the chaos in Gaza and the political reactions around the Arab world.
The Iranians have made a lot of gains in recent years – in Iraq, where an enemy regime has been removed – in Palestine, where the Israel has been drawn into a second conflict it would surely prefer to avoid – and in the wider Muslim world, where public anger threatens to upset the (anti-Iranian) political order. As well, the US is being drawn once again into events it cannot control.
Wisely, the Australian Government has stuck to the familiar policy of supporting Israel while calling for peace and opposing Hamas. This is the only viable path to order, self-determination and statehood for the people of Palestine as well as peace for Israel.
So firing 80 or more rockets a day into Israel is OK and not an act of terrorism?]
Clearly they are both as biased and full of hatred as each other.
You know it’s true.
enjaybee, the only thing noticeable from that post is that you failed to read mine correctly.
I’m wondering what narrowly shaped definition of terrorism exists that when party A does it, it’s terrorism, but when party B does it it’s not. And if there is such a line, whether or not it should be challenged.
Your second post doesn’t really make sense. “Every chance they get they knock it back”. Well yeah, Palestinians want to stop being treated like second-class citizens in what used to be their country but they also want to live their lives.
Can you tell me how many Palestinians voted for Hamas due to their promises on education, social welfare and other services, and how many voted for them because of their stance on Israel? Hamas spends 90% of its money every year on social welfare and education programs. It stopped suicide bombing in 2005. Rocket attacks after the ceasefire dropped from 500 a month to 2-12 a month, and Hamas is by no means the only group launching rockets. Remember how the last truce was broken? Israel shelled a beach killing 8 Palestinian civilians and injuring another 30.
Boerwar, I think you are too ready to liken Rudd to Howard on Climate Change. The Liberals have positoned themselves to oppose any move to an ETS, while the Greens have said they will not settle for less than a 40% target. As a result, as things stand, the Government will not get their proposal through the Senate.
The Liberals and the Greens are playing for political advantage with the toughest economic and political issue ever placed on the agenda. Rudd is at least trying to make a start. You might think 5% is not worth having, but you can be very certain it is at least 5% more than the US, China, Japan, India or Canada will be offering in Copenhagen.
I also think that even if the Government gets its plans turned into law 5% is going to be hard to achieve. Re-wiring the economy is not going to be anyone’s picnic.
Some of the stuff raised in that study about reasons against becoming a republic is scary.
“Because the sovereignty of God will be removed from our constitution and so
our country will fall into total disarray.”
I watched Peter Garrett on the 7.30 report tonight. He performed far more strongly than I expected him to.
I thought he showed a sound grasp of the decision making process that is required of a minister, and effectively what is and is not a relevant consideration under administrative law. Not something the Howard ministers were very good at.
He also managed to put the thing into the perspective of the decisions made by ex Minister Turnbull, and pointed out that it is more sensible to require Gunns to do the scientific studies before a final decision on the remaining modules is made, rather than afterwards as Malcolm Turnbull ridiculously proposed.
No new year gift for the coalition with this one.
BB at 313
Always admire the eloquence of your postings. In relation to the Israeli/Palestinian issue, I’ve always had the feeling (probably naive) that if the Israelis were allowed to live their lives without constantly being harrassed with rockets, suicide bombers, etc. that they would leave the other side alone.
Oz at 314
Do you have knowldege that the number of rockets being fired was 2-12 per month which in any case is 2-12 per month too many. Reports would seem to indicate that the number fired is much more than you state.
According to medics in Gaza, almost 20% of all deaths have been children.
Yes Oz, I agree, and just as silly an argument against a republic as as this one given in favour… “We should allow ourselves to grow up – and let our Indigenous people mature as well and preserve the oldest surviving culture in the world!”
When republicans can decide on a republican model that addresses the issues of selection, powers, reserve powers, emergency replacement of president etc, please let us know, and then we may be able to have an informed debate on the relative merits and risks of the proposed model in comparison and contrast to our existing arrangements.
By the way, the state by state poll figures (in favour) in the link kindly provided by William are in the case of QLD ludicrously inflated, I think, considering the usual QLD voting pattern, our demographics, and the results from the last referendum.
Yes enjaybee, the source is right here from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/297F5195-4BB4-4C98-9DCE-A9BFF91E6407/0/rockets2008.jpg
It should also be noted that in direct response to your point of Israeli’s being “constantly harassed”, over 5 years of rocket attacks 20 Israeli civilians have died. To give you some perspective, Israel has killed more than 80 Palestinian children alone in the last two weeks.
Hamas also stopped suicide bombing in 2005. That didn’t stop Israeli shelling and airstrikes which killed up to a 500 Palestinians in a 6 month period.
Yep fargo outstanding decison by Garrett. What next. What he has said is that they can begin building it and then we will have a look at whether they are complying with environmental standards set regarding the affect on marine life. What kind of policy is this? yep if you are not meeting the standards we set you have to demolish the pulp mill… yep and who is he kidding… Garrett is pie without any meat like the rest of the Rudd Government unable to speak its mind because it is to frightened to upset people.
Israel a case in point.
The latest view from America and Israel is that Hamas must abide by Un resolutions and how many Un resoloutions has Israel abided by in last forty years! Very few maybe zero…
Ah, Marky the true blue Labor man who hasn’t got a kind word to say about them. It seems to me you and the Liberals have a lot in common. Just a thought but have you thought of actually making it official and joining the Libs? Malcolm would make you most welcome. Or maybe the Greens are more your go, anything but Labor obviously.
Oz i find it odd that you would support a terrorist organisation over a free democratic state…i really dont understand your logic here?
Also how does your statements square with the fact that Hamas broke the ceasefire using Grad rockets into Southern Israel…they started this war and Israel is going to end it!
Hamas are a bunch of thugs and terrorists who hide behind civilians or their families thinking the Israelis would not bomb them…every last Hamas fighter in Gaza should be killed the sooner that happens the sooner Fatah can get back into power there and the sooner the peace process can continue…
Marky Marky,
On the issue of ‘Israel and Hamas’, our Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, has spoken his mind today, and very clearly. I happen to agree with him.
I find that Mr Rudd usually speaks very clearly about whatever subject he is addressing, regardless of whether I agree with his pronouncements or not. The same goes for most of his ministers. The contrast to the rabble on the opposition benches is very clear to me.
Thinking back over the past 13 months, are there any shadow ministers you wish to name as outperforming the current ministers? Are there any you wish to name as having scored a draw? Any got even close?
Could I ask for a bit of self-regulation in discussion of Gaza? If your comment has political, historical or (best of all) electoral dimensions of a kind that might generate constructive discussion, dive right in. If you’re merely damning one side or the other in terms that can only provoke heated argument in response (I’m looking at you at the moment, Glen), take it somewhere else.
fargo (325), your point is well-aimed. The Government are getting better by the month while the Opposition spiral into an oblivion of their own making. So far, on the issues that matter most – the economy and climate change – the Opposition have yet to show they deserve to be taken seriously. They were a bunch of frauds in power and they have not changed one bit.
Sorry William i get carried away sometimes though this time not in German…
Well i am surprised no one thinks this military operation is a synical ploy by Kadima and Labor to beef up their security credentials before the Feb election…Bibi must be spitting chips because Labor in particular are getting a boost in the polls and if anything Likud will drop…
Anyway it is smart politics but still Bibi being Bibi is calling for a wider incursion and the elimination of Hamas completely without negotiations…
BTW i still think Likud will win a plurality of MKs…with Bibi as PM.
a synical ploy…distantly related to a septic audience…
Seriously though, Glen, I do think the Israelis have been sucked in, just as they were in Lebanon. This is a fight they cannot possibly win, no matter how many casualties they inflict on Hamas and no matter whether they have the law on their side or not. And yet, tragically for all, it may be a fight that Israel could not postpone.
This just points again to the futility, stupidity and cruelty of war – as if the people of the Middle East need reminding – and the wisdom of trying to stay out of other people’s conflicts.
I cant see how Israel could lose a fight in Gaza there is nowhere for the enemy to melt away to and is a much smaller battleground to duke it out than southern Lebanon…Livni and Barrak are going to do better than they would have in Feb but Likud will win in the end the Israelis are fed up with Hamas…
Have a look at the Financial Times….sobering views:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e56ac646-da93-11dd-8c28-000077b07658.html
“A dangerous gamble in Gaza
Published: January 4 2009 19:35 | Last updated: January 4 2009 19:35
Israel’s decision to pour ground troops and armour into the Gaza Strip is a dangerous gamble. If the goal is to reduce the number of rockets Hamas can fire at neighbouring, southern Israeli towns, it is probably achievable – for now. But if Israel proposes to cut the heart out of its most implacable Palestinian opponents, it will fail.
In either case the mounting casualties, including civilians, from Israel’s disproportionate air, sea and artillery bombardment in densely populated urban areas will so blacken its reputation, and so undermine moderate Arab and Palestinian opinion, that its political position will be seriously weakened.”
This fellow is also well worth reading:
http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/01/can-the-us-economy-afford-a-keynesian-stimulus/
“Willem Buiter on US fiscal policy
In a very long, and very good, analysis of the challenges facing US economic policy makers now, Willem Buiter casts doubt on the effectiveness of a fiscal policy stimulus in the US . The problem, he writes, is a “deep structural rot” which leads to extreme balance sheet adjustment in the financial and household sectors, which will take years, or maybe decades, to complete. Keynesian policies might work in healthier economies, but not in the US.”
The basic point is that the US is broke and that the unfolding burst in US Govt debt has only one conclusion: inflation and the collapse of the USD.
Such events would have significant implications for this country: a highly unstable currency, a reverse in the trend to lower interest rates, further contraction in international trade and – almost inevitably – a decline in our ability to roll over our foreign liabilities. Much pain will ensue…..
Just wanted to say how turned off I am from reading pollbludger comments since the conflict broke out. I come here for election related information, not Israel/Palestine bashing veiled in the form of election discussion.
Briefly @ 315
If a unilateral 5% ETS is not going to make a skerrick of difference (as per my MDB example) why have it at all? If it is spinning wheels without making a subtantive difference to global CO2 levels, why do it? Why not spend the funding on something useful, like on CC damage amelioration? The answer can only be: getting re-elected.
Rudd and Howard are different. They start with different values. Nevertheless, they are also very, very similar. They want, above all, to be re-elected. A test here is whether Rudd has stuck his neck out on anything? Answer: No. (Arguably, Howard took greater political risks than has Rudd at a similar time in their Governments).
The HowRuddian convergence is the place where master politicians try to ensure their political future by wheeling, dealing and working the market segments. The spin words are ‘balanced’ and ‘practical’. Howard used them. Rudd uses them.
In normal times, this does not matter much. Canny politicians merely endlessly cycle through successive governments, with varying results that most of us can more or less live with. But we are not in normal times. We are in abnormal times and the HowRuddian Convergence has failed us.
The fact that the GG and Greg Sheridan approve of Rudd and Obama merely underlines what is going on here: much ado about nothing.
The proposal to run a unilateral 5% ETS is a FAIL. Putting it on the table for international negotiations is a FAIL. Let’s hope the rest of the world comes up with something more substantial.
Boerwar (336), I think it is pointless to complain about politicians trying to win elections: that’s what they do in democracies. You can choose between an Opposition that will make a virtue of resisting any move to an ETS and a Govt that is willing to try to get an ETS up and running.
The probability is though, the ET will fail to pass the Senate and we will end up with nothing. Perhaps this will cheer you up.
Boerwar, “Let’s hope the rest of the world comes up with something more substantial.”
You are hoping for the best from the super-emitters. What are the chances?
Oh Dear, Springborg returns to work today and makes a major gaffe by challenging Mal Brough to run as an Independent Conservative candidate in Glasshouse at the next Queensland election. Talk about waving a red flag at a bull!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24876731-5006786,00.html
US in Presendential “transition” , Bush/Obama on holidays , post xmas no one in th Western world is around , ruling ‘left’ Israeli partys facing defeat in an imminent elction whereas war with ‘terorists” always helps poll support …Israel attacks initially by air th Gaza just just then …over one israeli death I must be getting cynical in my young age
Having exposed th fallacy of Adams UN arguments in my #181 , and then quoting resolution 242 , th 1967 participants to which it related ( being Isreal , Jordon , Egypt & Syria) and that under resolutions 242 point (i) Israel should hav withdrawn in 1967 from West Bank/Gazza , and that irrespective th separate ‘non beligerance’ requirements of 242 point (ii) hav been adhered to anyway for past 30 years by those first 3 Countrys (Israel , Jordon & Egypt being th Countries for which th West Bank/Gazza applies) meaning even under 242 point (ii) Israel should ve withdrawn over 30 years ago , and furthermore having pointed out since 1994 Isreal , Jordon , & Egypt even hav peace agreements which absolutely prove non beligerance thereby makning th ‘non beligerance’ requirements of 242 point (ii) actually over complied with meaning even under 242 point (ii) Israel should hav withdrawn over 10 years ago….is there any intellectual response from Adam or Israeli supportrs to those points…..zero reasons hav given for non Israeli withdrawal
Why , because there is no valid reason for not withdrawing under th unaminous UN resolution 242…none at all …which is why these points can not be challenged So what th Israeli supporters ar left with is th Palestiniens th invadee , th occupied peoples should not be forsably trying to forse Israel th invader th occupier to withdraw Th Palestiniens should not be firing rockets to pressure th invader Israel to withdraw YET no Israeli supporter has said how long after 42 now years th Palestiniens should UNNATURALY desist from trying to forse th Invador Israel to withdraw , before Israel in response will actually withdraw
Fact is over 42 years there hav been numerous “ceasefires”….yet th Israeli’s still have not withdrawn….notwithstanding th Palestiniens th invadee has every right to demand Israel th invadee withdraw irrespective of whther th Palestiniens th invadee ar still firing rockets to forse them out or not Point is Israel’s false premise allows them to occupy permanently…currently for 42 years…Israel’s excuse for remaining is a charade & no Israeli supporter can intelectualy defend such an occupation excuse
Gallingly , th Israeli’s hav built numarous Israeli “settlements” on non Israeli land….that also is NOT th action of an Invador who intends to leave at all Again no Israeli supporter can justify why these Israeli settlements ar being built on non Israeli land ….non Israeli land that under 242 they ar supposed to withdraw from …nor th continued “settlementing” of Arab East Jurulesm (under 242 they ar supposed to withdraw from )
What we got from Adam instead is red herrings muddying th waters about 1948 histary , and j.wish-nes of Israel , and suggestions of forced Israeli Arab resettlements to some new Adam suggested boundaries to ‘deport’ these Arab Israeli’s into …none of which address’s either my #181 or th abov which is th issue…ie there’s no justificaton for occupying when th UN says to withdraw , when there is no reason to occupy “arab’ land AND when NO ONE including Israeli supporters hav remotely argued that th West Bank or Gazza belongs to Israel at all
So we hav ridiculous situation of Israeli supporters NOT even claming th West Bank or Gazza belongs to Israel…but somehow claiming Israel is allowed to occupy this “arab” land …for 42 years and counting …based on th claim th invadee occupied residents should not be trying to forse th illegal invader Israeli out of land that Israel supporters even consede is not Israeli land
Most unaligned objective people wuld conclude…after 42 years an occupier Isreal (and a “deemed Western and christen one at that) still ilegaly occupying “muslim”/Arab land by forse and against also th express unaminous UN resolution will guarantee continued armed Palestinien resistanse…and has …and will forever
So th solution to non conflict obviousley is Israel must withdraw unconditionally to its pre 1967 boder as required by UN resolution 242 annd now…and concurrently USA th worlds military super power should unambigousley verbally and by a physical presense deterrent back up Israels quite legitmaite right to exist for which I’ve never questoned ..but inside ITS own pre 1967 borders…….USA cann’t say that’s to hard “to protect democracy” because afterall th USA hasn’t hesated to go into Iraq , Afhanistan , Vietnam “to protect democracy” ….why not then for Israel who in spirit is its 52 nd state compared to Iraq , Afhanistan , Vietnam
….whatever State-hood arrangements Palestiniens decide for there Country is not Israel’s business at all (but Israeli subsequent humanitarian aid and ‘trade’ to indepenant Palestinien State wuld assist future reltions if it choosed)
So I’m back as that cynical young man at start , about timing of this war…other Agnda’s ar at play and pity that seems to be for th Palestiniens…for th Israeli’s an Agenda of annexing Arab east Jurulesm and parts of West Bank for land & religous basis’s …and at no economic coist as Israel is financed from th US budget annually and gets th latest military hardware as well plus there own innovations with US financing ….AND for USA an Agenda of a “controlled” M/E destabilised region does reely keep those oil rich /strategic Saudi Arabia , Emriates , Egypt and Kuwait only too desperate to keep friendly with th USA for military protecton (and didn’t th foolish Saddamm play right into there fears & to USA stratagic interests)
Billy Clinton went against th abov Agenda’s and made ‘demands of Israeli PM Barack in 1999 AND of Arafat , and almost got a deel …but his presendency time ran out I genuinely hope Obama takes Billy’s final 95% land template as a start and then a premium on getting 100% Arab East Jurulsm and realistic ‘return’ trade off , and forses Israel to first agree ..then publicly declares it to forse Palestiniens out to accept it (I believe Abbas would , and that will be enough to weaken both exrtreme Israeli and Palestinien zealots
But enough of red herrings camoflating not withdrawing , we all know non withdrawal guarantees continued conflict…and those disgraceful one ton bombs th Israelis’’ ar inflicting on innocent Palestinien civilians….well 80 Palestiniens kids alone hav died since xmas , so those that use th word ‘terorist’ in defense of Israel neither know of th 1948 Hagganoh or understand 80 kids lives lost from one ton bombs has a “name” , and sooner or later history will record what that ‘name’ is , and it is th same name you’d call a suicide bomber because neither can reely be justified …..of course describing those “ethnic separations within West Bank of Arab and Isreali with pre Mandela South African connotations
I ‘ve descibeed a way out of this , make th abov just histary & move forward …if Israel and US choose…after that if Palestinien side won’t party then as described th onus publicly is on thems and its cost should be by UN resolution
Of course being young and cynicol means when I get old I’ll become wise realizing th West is never wrong and Western Mediaa hav been always so even handed in reporting One can hope in reality solutions abov , rather than Geo political selfish abuse Agendas
“MAL Brough’s career may still have life, with Opposition Leader Lawrence Springborg suggesting he could run for a seat in State Parliament.”…
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24874904-3102,00.html
The land now called the West Bank by the Palestineans was called Judea (land of the Jews) and Samalia, this war had been going on for thosands of year, and the land is as much the Jews as the Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_bank
For me 2 to 12 rockets a day is an act of war, imaging if 2 to 12 rocket hit Australia everyday, most lands in the desert, but some will kill Australian, I would not want to live in that situation.
While I blame it on the Palestineans, I think it is just a few lunatics that fires the rockets who are at fault and the Hamas Government either supporting these lunatics or refusing to do anything about them who are at fault, they are just using the life and children of their civilians as political tools. These people are to blame for the conflict.
Some people just want to see the world burn
Great to see the Queensland Nationals bringing out the big guns against the Queensland Liberals on their first day back at work in an election year. The merger and champagne is just so last year.
Ron
UN resolution 242 asked the Isrealis to remove troups from part of the West Bank, it did not at any time ask Isreal to move out of the West Bank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242#Semantic_dispute
Per Lord Caradon, the chief author of the resolution:
It was from occupied territories that the [r]esolution called for withdrawal. The test was which territories were occupied. That was a test not possibly subject to any doubt as a matter of fact…East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan and Sinai were occupied in the 1967 conflict. I[t] was on withdrawal from occupied territories that the Resolution insisted.[12]
Lord Caradon also maintains,
We didn’t say there should be a withdrawal to the ‘67 line; we did not put the ‘the’ in, we did not say all the territories, deliberately.. We all knew – that the boundaries of ‘67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers, they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier… We did not say that the ‘67 boundaries must be forever; it would be insanity.[13]
Hi Glen,
Re your “BTW I still think Likud will win a plurality of MKs…with Bibi as PM”. Do you mean that you think that Likud will win 60 seats or more? (I am not having a go at you, I am just unsure if that is what you actuallly mean).
Given the electoral system of Israel, and recent published polling, it seems highly unlikely to me that anyone can gain a majority (hence my confusion about the point you have made above).
http://alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L1463965.htm (Link to polling results)
I am thinking at the moment that it is more likely that there will be a coalition of Kadima / Labour with (I presume) Tzipi Livni as P.M. I suppose it depends on who they can get to support them as they still would seem to end up about 12 seats short of a majority, even at 32 ands 16 seats respectively. If Likud can only muster 27 seats or less, I don’t see how they will be able to get enough cross bench support to form anything like a stable government, although I readily admit that I do not know much about what any of the other parties stand for, nor how much political differences and personal differences come into play when they decide who if anyone they will ultimatly support.
I read yesterday that the qualifying % for Knesset representation is 2%. It was originally 1%, then was increased to 1.5% then again to the 2%. I think it is really necessary to have a 5% qualifying limit to get a workble trade off between workability and fair representation in a proportional voting system.
Here is a description of the Israel electoral system… http://www.knesset.gov.il/deSCRIPTion/eng/eng_mimshal_beh.htm There is a link on that page that goes to previous results.
Is a blockade an act of war? It used to be called one. Is the shelling of beaches, markets and schools an act of war? No one wants rockets dropped on them, but stop pretending that it’s only Palestinian militants engaging in indiscriminate killing.
This discussion should not be framed as though the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began when militants starter firing rockets randomly into Israel. An excellent article here demonstrates the naivety of such a view.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-bombing-ashkelon-is-the-most-tragic-irony-1216228.html
“How easy it is to snap off the history of the Palestinians, to delete the narrative of their tragedy, to avoid a grotesque irony about Gaza which – in any other conflict – journalists would be writing about in their first reports: that the original, legal owners of the Israeli land on which Hamas rockets are detonating live in Gaza.
That is why Gaza exists: because the Palestinians who lived in Ashkelon and the fields around it – Askalaan in Arabic – were dispossessed from their lands in 1948 when Israel was created and ended up on the beaches of Gaza. They – or their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren – are among the one and a half million Palestinian refugees crammed into the cesspool of Gaza, 80 per cent of whose families once lived in what is now Israel. This, historically, is the real story: most of the people of Gaza don’t come from Gaza.
But watching the news shows, you’d think that history began yesterday, that a bunch of bearded anti-Semitic Islamist lunatics suddenly popped up in the slums of Gaza – a rubbish dump of destitute people of no origin – and began firing missiles into peace-loving, democratic Israel, only to meet with the righteous vengeance of the Israeli air force. The fact that the five sisters killed in Jabalya camp had grandparents who came from the very land whose more recent owners have now bombed them to death simply does not appear in the story.”
Wonder if Springborg will give up his seat of Southern Downs that any National in Queensland could win and search out a Labor held seat to win. Or is that just reserved for Liberals in general Queensland and Brough in particular?
Oz
Blockade is not an act of war, it has never been. It can be part of a war, but a lot of country had been blockaded without the country coming to war
The last one is Cuba by the US
Oz Said
That is why Gaza exists: because the Palestinians who lived in Ashkelon and the fields around it – Askalaan in Arabic – were dispossessed from their lands in 1948 when
Israel was created and ended up on the beaches of Gaza.
You are doing exactly what you are asking people not to do, this is only the last instalment of war in the area.
The West Banks was once called Jeffa (ie land of the jews) and Samala, this land was occupied by the jews over 2000 years ago, it was taken over by the muslim at the decline of the Roman empire and the start of the Ottoman empire. At the end of the Ottoman empire, it was returned to the Jews, and then taken over by the Jordanians
To say that only the Muslim have rights to the land is wrong, both the Jews and Muslim has claims to the land, they have fought over that parch of the desert for thosands of year and will do so for eternity
Hoping for a Palestinian State after this schomozel
One final outrage, Bush rewarding his war criminal stooges before he departs
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/06/2459675.htm
Speaking about Blair.
Wasn’t he appointed as some sort of mediator to sort out the Palestinian/Israeli problems.
He doesn’t appear to be too effective so far.
maybe they could get Downer from the Cyprus/Turkey negotiations- because he is a real gun
John Howard is in good company with his new award.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24878783-5013871,00.html
What’s amusing about this Gaza harangue (from both sides) is that there is no right and no wrong, only sides to take.
I’m sure any of us would condemn Israel if we saw the bodies of little children being pulled out of a ruined house. It’s not their fault that their fathers or uncles use them as human shields.
On the other hand, if we were forced to live out lives in bunkers, sheltering from rockets, as (apparently) many Israelis near Gaza have been forced to do, we would be equally condemnatory of Hamas. This feeling would be easier to hold if we also kept in mind what happens to Jews who don’t fight back.
So we have two mad lots, each hating the other, each carefully selecting its definition of “atrocity” to suit its purposes. The rulers of each side are being pushed by radicals further down the ranks, mostly young men full of testosterone and (shamefully) old men full of perverted history and a habit of hate.
Each side has legitimate concerns and legitimate grievances. What neither side has is good will. Until that appears on the scene the fighting and the killing and the endless, useless and pointless argument will go on – both there in the Middle East and here at PB. The argument or the war will never be won until good will takes root. After several hundred years of conflict that doesn’t seem to be likely to happen any time soon.
In either case the opinionation, masked as thoughtful argument, or interpretation of history is – especially here – a waste of bandwidth. As are the calls from the likes of Glen (and maybe others too, I haven’t had the stomach to read all the comments) to solve the problem by killing everyone who doesn’t agree with the side he supports. That call can be applied to the other side too, of course, and eventually probably will be.
I agree with Bob1234: the “Gaza” slanging match over several hundred posts above is a waste of time and a complete turnoff.
+1 to that. It ain’t much fun to read.
Dovif, the Encyopledia Britannica declares a blockade to be an act of war as does every other definition I’ve found so far. Even if you don’t consider it to be, you neglect to respond to the airstrikes and shelling perpetrated by the Israeli’s.
I am not talking about some obscure “Muslim” or “Jewish” right to the land dating back thousands of years. I’m talking about the people living in the country who were forcibly dispossessed of their land and relocated. Your logic that because the Jews lived their 2000 years ago that they had the right to do that is the same as saying that we should all be herded into one part of Australia and allow the Indigenous people to live unfettered in our homes.
Bushfire Bill, part of what you say is correct regarding “choosing sides” but even before getting to that stage you have to absorb the facts. A lot of what is going on here is a simple neglecting of the truth or ridiculous double standards used to back up pre-existing beliefs. Eg. Two rockets were launched from Palestine, no injuries recorded, Hamas are terrorists and we have to wipe them out even if that means causing immense civilian casualties, destroying local infrastructure and ensuring an entire generation of Palestinians hate Israel. Israel kills hundreds of civilians in a number of airstrikes and shelling attacks and kidnaps members of parliament and they’re simply defending themselves.
As I asked earlier, what’s the difference between an Israeli aistrike on a mosque, killing a dozen civilians and a militant rocket attack into Israel? Is it simply the fact that Israel says it’s aiming for militants?
The Presidential Medal of Freedom was also awarded to Dick Cheney in 91. And if not for the conventions of this award, Bush would be gonging his puppet master a second time for “freedom-loving work in the areas of water-boarding and extraordinary rendition”.
How apt that Howard and Blair will share the PMF with a war criminal. (And that it will be presented to them by a war criminal.)
Oz
Spot on there at @356
To the naysayers and ostriches out there, I quick reality check is in order
1.Aint we a democracy -we should therefore defend All peoples rights to a fair go, both here and Overseas
2. israel is the bastard child of the West,yet no criticism is allowed when outright massacrse as we are seeing happen
3.As I said during howies reign- “evil happens when good men do nothing”
4.Where howie had an amorphous threat “boat people” that he could,and did, use as effective electoral boogyman-the Israelis castigate and villify the Palestinians Before EVERY election they have ever held.Chew on that litlle morsel and see if the bile dont start to rise.
5.Our voiices should not be stifled,or our concerns muted just because it is Israel,they should be evn louder and more condemning BECAUSE it’s Israel
354 – +2 to that BB. It ain’t much fun to read at all.
Ohhh
“To the naysayers and ostriches out there”
and of course the closet Howardista’s and their “I’m all right jack” attitude
Oh dear, Quadrant editor Keith Windschuttle, has been caught out by a hoax.
The report, which includes several large chunks of quoted material from Windschuttle, appears in today’s Australian, a journal responsible for its own tawdry hoax in July 2006. (A chapter of Patrick White’s The Eye of the Storm was sent under a bogus name to various leftist publishers with the predictable result that it was not accepted by any of them.)
#358, Gus, i did ask “what is so special about Israel?”. i am still waiting for an answer.
Good old Mesmerelda is at it again
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24879694-5017005,00.html
Re ‘that’ peace medal. Nelson Mandella has also received one, a man who personally sacrificed so much.
Mandella also spoke out against the invasion of Iraq.
Briefly
Once in a while you get a politician who is also a leader. That is, someone who bites the bullet, sticks his neck out, and leads the electorate rather than being led by the nose by focus groups and the Textors of this world.
Yes, we live in a democracy, however imperfect, for which I am very grateful. However, (and I know this is difficult for people to understand after 12 years of the HowRuddian Convergence) even democracies are susceptible to leadership. On CC Response policy, the HowRudd Convergence has not shown the quality of leadership.
Unlike the dopey bastards who wanted to start a campaign of civil disobedience, I will live with democratic outcomes. Similarly, I will use the benefits of democracy to post actively against policies, which, shorn of their party-political ‘commonsense’, are, quite simply, irrational.
In terms of your term ’super emitters’ – Australians are per capita super emitters.
As for my expectations of the rest of the world? If there is some outstanding leadership rising to abnormal times, something effective will be established. If a bunch of nationalism-blinkered master politicians muddle through, as per normal times, we will get a half-baked ‘balanced’ and ‘practical’ solution that will not make much real difference. Unfortunately, the HowRudd Convergence contribution to global CC Response policy development has been one big wet blanket. Its a FAIL.
If that is the case, no, I don’t want a 5% ETS. There are two reasons. The first is that it will help fool Australians into thinking that something substantial is being done and that Australia is somehow off the CC responsibility hook. The second is the opportunity cost. I would much rather spend the funds required to set up and run a 5% ETS on something sensible like CC damage amelioration for the poor bastards who are now losing their livelihoods in the Murray Darling Basin.
363 Frank, how do we know that Mesmeralda is not just plagiarizing today’s ‘New York Times’.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/business/06auto.html?_r=1&ref=business
Steve @ 366
Thank you for the link.
If Julie Bishop had the capacity to do some original thinking she would question just exactly how the debt-laden consumption of private cars is such a good idea for Australia.
Unfortunately, like the rather poor quality party political person that she is, she has simply stayed in the bubble, stayed with the program, and chanted the mantra.
Another poll on the February Israel election…
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129244
The article mentions the creation of a new party called the National Union party, although I infer from the story that the new party has been created by merging existing parties, including one called the Jewish National Front, so I presume it is what would generally be called a far right wing party, and would be expected to back a Likud government.
I also read today that an election is due in Lebanon in May.
Boerwar, perhaps nobody has explained to her yet that one of the features of the GFC is that finance is very difficult for businesses to obtain in every part of the world. No good bleating about rates in Australia when the whole system has seized up on a global basis.
Julie Bishop is a wonder isn’t she. She was on the national news again last night giving the banks advice on what they need to do for their customers. I am surprised it was considered newsworthy, then again the Channel 7 news in Brisbane tonight spent what seemed like about 3 minutes (out of about 20 minutes of actual news time) on the Logans are not Bogans campaign.
I think my favourite Julie Bishop activity, was her advice to Julia Gillard in August 2007 to stop acting like a fashion model… http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22227525-2761,00.html
I reckon another six months until she is dumped.
Fargo, what’s your take on Springborg’s brain explosion today? Telling Brough to find a Labor seat to run in (while not game to say leave Glasshouse alone) but Springborg sitting in the safe National seat of Southern Downs will surely make the February sittings of parliament in Queensland interesting. Labor will dice Springborg over this.
I think the Lebanese election was announced today to be in June.
Fargo61,
Great link. I loved this part.
I think it worked extremely well, especially going on the last polling figures which showed that JG was extremely popular with women voters and she did quite well with men in the sexiest Australian women category.
I wonder too, if they still think she is a week link?
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22227525-2761,00.html
Boerwar
Posted Tuesday, January 6, 2009 at 7:09 pm | Permalink
Briefly….Once in a while…
Well, bw, I suppose I expect a lot less than you. I will be pleased if even a skeletal ETS gets into law. It will be better than nothing in my book. You have to start somewhere. For sure, many things will have to be tried and tested and pushed and poked to try to come to terms with dangerous climate change. The ETS is most unlikely to be a silver bullet, but it is one thing that kind of makes sense and is scaleable. If Rudd can get it through the Senate, and negotiate to a more ambitous outcome at Copenhagen, then more power to him. If he goes to Copenhagen empty-handed – defeated by a Liberal/Green alliance in the Senate – then the game will be just that much more difficult.
For what it is worth, think about a few things that the International Community could have fixed, but have dismally failed to do: remove barriers to agricultural trade (good for poor farmers in agrarian economies as well as workers in urban ones); abolish whaling (good for everyone, including the Japanese Govt Budget); agree on and enforce sensible capital rules in the global banking system (whoops, too late!).
You seem to think that fixing CC is easy. This is mistaken. The easy thing is to not fix it. At least Rudd is willing to define CC as a problem that can be and must be dealt with. Trouble is, fixing CC is going to be very very difficult – more difficult than anything our species has ever attempted or is ever likely to attempt. We are just taking the first tentative steps towards this and there is much much more likelihood that we will fail than succeed. Condeming Rudd for trying is like conceding defeat before we have really begun.
Steve why would Brough want a go in State politics it would be a waste of his talents the only way i see him getting back into politics is through a Federal Seat…
State politics is really useless…
Glen, that’s not quite what you were arguing after the West Australian election result and we both know that Brough is unelectable Federally. As an Indepentent conservative in Glasshouse, he would have a job for yearsand without having to run around as a dud Minister unable to extract cash from the Treasurer as he was want to do as Minister for Disability Services.
re: howie and blair getting the FREEDOM medal. Doesnt it display everything that was wrong about GWB’s presidency?? A complete inability to be reflective or admit mistakes. How have their actions promoted freedom and democracy again??
Steve, (#371)
I really have no idea about what might have brought that one on. I presume some internal dispute is going on, but that is only a guess. What Mr Springborg thought he would achieve is beyond me.
Mr Springborg also had a slot on the news tonight. It was on channel 7 I think, but I can not find it mentioned on either the 7 or 9 sites. Anyway, they started off by introducing the segment by saying something like Laurence Springborg has returned to work while Anna Bligh is still on holidays… you can be sure that that is the style of reporting that the Courier Mail will also be using all year, and indeed used for nearly all last year.
They also said something about policies (I thought – which is why I wanted to see a video of the segment) although no actual policies were mentioned that I noticed.
It was basically a photo shoot opportunity in a motor bike shop for Mr Springborg and two of his LNP candidates, who were asked when they thought the election would be called.
One seemed to say that he thought sooner rather then later, but that it could be later, but they would be ready if it was sooner, and the other one said that she didn’t know, but would find out later from the interviewer. Mr Springborg was also asked where his Borg Bus was, and said he didn’t know where it is (was) today.
They may as well have spent more time on the Logans are not Bogans campaign.
I still think that the LNP, the Liberal Party, and the National Party, may be currently improperly registered in QLD, and as I am on leave this week, I have decided to bestir myself tomorrow and contact the ECQ about it.
FINNS
#362
Our voiices should not be stifled,or our concerns muted just because it is Israel
“#358, Gus, i did ask “what is so special about Israel?”. i am still waiting for an answer.”
What is so special about Israel is it is able bomb innocent civilians (with or with out provocation) living in other Countrys/teriritories Lebanon or Gaza for weeks on end without any UN sanction or any World sanction whatsoever nor hav to worry about complying with UN resulution……and on whatever pretext it chooses with th tacit suport of th most powerful military power on earth th USA Thats pretty special to be able to do that for 30 or so years
Its even more special to be able to do so with th Western press generaly “spinning” that israeli’s laser directed one ton bombs that kill masses of civilians were reely aimed at “terrorists” and just don’t dwell on those masses of slain civilians …..whereas any retaliation from those peoples invaded by and still occupied by Israel ar reely th “terrorists”
But th most remarkible special thing about Israel is on that one hand propertionate deaths run at say 100 Palestiniens dead for each single Israeli , but “somehow” somehow whiilst Israel has ilegaly actualy “occupoied” non Israeli land for 42 years …that “somehow” it reely is not “occupying” Sort of th rope de dope trick , you see an occupier but you ar told not to see th occupier & believe there is none
th “why” is a disgraceful indictment on th power of 2 organizations that ‘run’ US politcal Agenda’s …domesticaly th National Riflemans Associaton , and in FA (ie IsRael) th all powerful US j.e.w.ish lobby…and far more powerful than any other World country on deciding US policy Maybe th “why” came to politcans from th religous groups via historical bible books and WW2 ‘owed’ , and Palestiniens as occupyee wonder why Israel so special & there is silense , except those shells raining to them
Amigo Ronnie, Israel is “special” because of the Western powers’ guilt over the Holocaust or more to the point, their guilt over their failure to do more to prevent the Holocaust. It is succinctly told in the Salon’s article below.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/01/06/gaza_war/print.html
Amigo FINNS
#380
you asked “why” Israel so special….and I saws th “why” but could not resist exploring th “how” ….”how Israel is so special”… “how Israel is even more special” …”how Israel is so most remarkible special” favourably treated vs other Countrys on this earth
Contradictions within cointradictions of how obviously Israel is so special treated compared to all other nations in its unproportionate military use and illegal occupying capaciy ….and yet th “why” leads to that clarity post of yours…..and yet surely many in World will still shake there heads and wonder but I’ve read th “why” , but still ‘why” why th injustice , perhaps they did not reely believe read what they read in th why
Not all jews are supporting the current action in Gaza.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24879206-2702,00.html
An American view in Salon….obviously has reading my posts and just copy pasted key points , but in worse lingos :
SNIP: 1600 word republication of copyrighted article deleted. Read it here – The Management.
Its actualy th last 1/3 of th article ion page 2 thats relevant….th writer approachs th subject from 2 other angels in first 2/3 of article
Key para from Americon view was:
“Hamas is not the problem; it is a symptom. Treating it as the problem only prolongs the crisis. The problem is political and historical: the dispossession of Palestinians and the ongoing Israeli occupation of their land. Until that fundamental problem is resolved — and the hour when it can be resolved by a two-state solution may already have passed — Israel and America’s attempts to bludgeon Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims into submission will only generate more hatred, more violence and ever more extremism.”
Point being made was 60 years of “pretending” Israel was created by dispossessing its arab inhabitants , then crowding them into efectively th West Bank and Gazza , but still occupying them despite UN resolutions to withdraw will never crush th resistanse , and ner in reality can do so
Having as rsult created th PLO , then tried to undermine it by creating Hamas , Israel now seeks to undermine Hamas and likely may be replaced with even more zealotary jihardists , and th never ending cycle will continue with th risk that modern technologigy is bringing more potable weapons of destructon suggesting th continued non compliace to withdraw from non Israeli lands per resultion 242 not only is illegal and immoral to th Palestiniens , but in end may threatan survival of th Israel itself by creating more world wide Arab hatred & more damaging weapons to be used isreali’s and th US path leads only to a dead end…ultimately
Boerwar
From th hour of Rudds 5% ETS annousement , there was an initial overwhelming anti Rudd sentiment here which has dwindled as reality of what can be passed in Senate is understood , and th understanding th implications of either a likely lost DD in a GFC climate with a KLib scare campaign added , or oz left by th world all by itself with a high CC target at oureconamic cost whilst th world has endless talk feasts of no reel decsion
It seems you want australia to risk sailing alone on th high seas of total uncompetitivweness with our major trading partners , with resultant high unemployemnt , low growth & oz financial collapses , whislt others potentialy polute away without a CC target , but we’ve made a “stand” and feel good at th little big horn in living standards defeats
Lets assume Rudd annoused a 20% CC target , somehow got th needed BOTH Fielding/Mr X to agree (1000 to one odds there) , but lets ccept he gets that 20% CC target Senate apporved , but Coppenhaggen ends with no agreeemnt , indeed meetings in 2010 & 2011 still don’t get a international CC target agreemetn and US and China and India and Russia still hav no targets ….do we still then keep that oz CC 20% target , digging our peoples living standards graves but feeling we’ve made a stand….like its not something you shoot th bullet publicly and 2 years later withdraw th whole target %
.
.
its not th principal thats th problam , but th practical application in a reel world trading environment , and th problam is th USA first , its th world Leader where Leadership needs to come from …..then th other econamic power blocks then need to be ‘encouraged’ or bartared into a Kyoto agreemetn
BTW What constitutes a rogue state these days.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/un-refugee-schools-hit-by-israel/2009/01/06/1231004019273.html
“BTW What constitutes a rogue state these days.”
Speaking on Israeli Army Radio yesterday, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gabriela Shalev, hinted that the Government would consider NOT complying with UN DIRECTIVES if it ordered an end to military activity.
“We are relying on our friends the US and others so that we do not reach the point of a resolution that we will have to reject,” she said.
Well i reckon a State that is happy to ignore th UN …AGAIN makes a rogue State
Then again since Gaza War , 580 dead Palestiniens vs 5 dead Israelis…with th Israeli’s ilegaly attacking a non Israeli land makes a rogue State
But th lasar target bombing of children by Israel I feel borders on barbarism , nd yet there ar those that suport this ‘invasion” which ” is to ‘protect” Israel
NOW read reaction against a statemetn by 100 australian jews condemning th Gazza invasion by Australia’s Jewsih council
“The statement (by th 100 australian Jews) was rejected by the Australia/Israel and Jewish Affairs Council as ill-informed and indifferent to Israel’s suffering.”
Indiferent to israels suffering” ? , after reading #387
Regarding Gaza, I agree with BB’s well written piece at 354 – both sides are in the wrong.
Regarding economic prospects in 2009, I just read one of the most pessimistic pieces I have seen by Krugman:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/opinion/05krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
It is rather grimly titled “Fighting Off Depression”. There must be some awefuly bad not yet published data to come out in the US for him to be writing like this. Previously I have been optimistic that australia could stay out of recession and the rest of the world only enter one briefly, with teh US in a longer recession. But if the US is this bad, then all bets are off. as in some previous posts, I can only wonder what information financial firms and government agencies are not releasing, because on the face of publicly released data it should not be this bad. Yet clearly many people “in the know” are expecting it to be very bad. On teh plus side, I still think Oz is in as good a shape as any to get through this, provided the govenment commits to projects that generate genuine new jobs, and not just a few tax cuts that the panic stricken will only use to pay off their debts. The family/carer bonus was well targetted though.
Sorry Socrates , can not agree Bushfire bill misfired big time
BB #354 “What’s amusing about this Gaza harangue (from both sides) is that there is no right and no wrong, only sides to take.
“I’m sure any of us would condemn Israel if we saw the bodies of little children being pulled out of a ruined house. It’s not their fault that their fathers or uncles use them as human shields.
On the OTHER hand, if we were forced to live out lives in bunkers, sheltering from rockets, as (apparently) many Israelis near Gaza have been forced to do, we would be equally condemnatory of Hamas. This feeling would be easier to hold if we also kept in mind what happens to Jews who don’t fight back.”
This was a one sided pro israeli lot of nonsense
To attempt to sweep away th lasar targetting of Palestinien children by Israel under some unsubstantiated Israeoli Media ’spin” that all these dead Palestinien kids ar used as human shields” is th sort of apologetic excuse trotted out by an illegal and immoral invasion on another territory
This invasion started as a response to one israeli death …so far 5 hav Israeli’s hav died vs 580 Palestiniensd Gazza isth 16th most denseley populated city on earth and dropping one ton bombs guarantees high innoicent civilian deaths…and has So Bushfire Bill’s assertions ar not suported by th statistics
Furthermore , th invasion is in breach of th UN , Israel has no right to unlateraly invade non Israeli land and is in breach of 242 as well Again bushfire Bill’s post lacks UN substanse
As for th minescule number of Israeli’s killed by Hamas rockots cmpared to isralie unproportionate response , this conflict at its hart is th illegal (for 42 years) Israeli occupation of th West Bank and Gazza It is an occupier and resistanse via Palestinien rockets or otherwise is exactly what one wuld expect from any peoples who ar occupied , and precisely what will continue to occur whilstever Israel is in occupation Again BushFire bill completely misundestands who is th invador…and presents a distorted post as if BOTH ar each invading th others land One (Israel) occupies , and th other (Palestiniens) resists as is natural
And then ends a one sided and unsubstatniated post with ‘whole subject i a turn off’ …well whty write his long post then
These funfamental issues continue to get derailed by non big picture issue….th Palestiniens were lead by Arafat , not th most saleable of Leaders for a cause , and with a ‘history’ (yet people forget Israeli PM’s and cabinet ministers eg Sharon Begin also with a history incl Hagganog , but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed…th method of Palestineien resistanse to Israeli occupation and brutality via for example th brutual suicide bombers which was never likely to get Western suport but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed….th biased non even handed US FA approach to Israel/Palestinien dispute implying always th Palestiniens were wrong but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed , but US policy implied that….Western Media has always followed th US uneven handed approach giving impression th Palestiniens were simply terorists without any just cause at all , but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed….th nature of th original Israeli State creation by dispossing existing inhabiants has created hatred & magnified by many wars with 1967 & 1974 Arab wrongs but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed , …and th Western and especialy US “guilt over WW2 which automaticaly transcends sympathy for Israel even 60 years later but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed …th non propertionate Israeli brutality re th Intafada (resistanse to ilegal Israli occupation) that was ‘presented’ as Palestinien wrongdoing but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed…th fact th Palestiniens ar Arab , muslim , dress diferently and does not look favourable to th well suited ‘Christian” israeli politcans in comarison but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed….and numerous other small and major errors and loss of lives on both sides but that does NOT mean th Palestinien cause for Israeli withdrawal under 242 was flawed
th Gaza invasion itself is unproportionate , illegal and immoral …and it is plainly cause and efect Palestinien Rockets ar fired to forse Israelis to leave Arab lands th World says is not there property Those rockets will for ever be sent whilst Israel rmains an occupier of thoser lands
Israel’s latestt statement tonite it may defy a UN cease fire resulution and itsd savage bombing killing children and innocent civilians shows a Country that has lost reality of fairness and rule of international law (knowing US militarily suports them via US j.e.wish lobby) )Since 1967 this Israeli occupation has been th root of th problam requiring both Israeli withdrawal fullstop…and concurent Israeli security backed phsicaly by US deterrance, and believe th other matters flow from this
Ron
Upon second thought, and reading your post, I see I have erred. I (mostly) agree with you instead.
I did not read all of BB’s post, and missed the bit where he said both sides had legitimate grievances. I would agree that both sides are claiming grievances that are not legitimate (except that it is now legitimate for the residents of Gaza to complain about Israel’s disproportionate resposne). The only thing I would quibble with you on is that the rocket attacks on Israel are still wrong, however much smaller they may be. Five civilian dead is still five murders (by Hamas), just as the hundreds of Gaza civilian dead have also been murdered (by the IDF). I never at any stage meant to condone the disproportionate use of force by Israel.
Ron @ 385
No I am not a unilateralist at all. I though that Australia should have put 20% on the table of the international negotations. It opted for a band 5-15% with a promise of a 5% unilateral ETS, come what may.
The latter would make no sense at all. Assuming the rest of the world does nought, 5% Australian equals about .0005% of the global emissions. Statistical noise. Why bother? It would be far more sensible to get into ameliortion instead.
In adopting this approach, Rudd has pretty well converged on Howard (aim for re-election above all else and aim for ‘balance’ and ‘practical’. But, above all, don’t do anything that will upset the horses). Hence the HowRudd Convergence. In abnormal times we need better than the traditional horse trader master politician. We need a leader. We haven’t had one for 12 years now.
So Howard, who helped start two wars and helped finish neither, gets a Peace Medal?
Howard has made only one useful contribution to peace in his entire career – losing his seat in the last election.
“Regarding economic prospects in 2009, I just read one of the most pessimistic pieces I have seen by Krugman:”
I’ll post then read what he says
However intro indicates he’s coming towards my cautous thoughts I’ve suggested for a while there is now a prime not sub prime problam , loss of critical confidense , squeeze on credit , non faith between key banking institutions , monstrous current and trading deficits espec US , 10 trillion debt plus Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac 5.1 billion , probable private equity sector hole , , commoditys ar dropping , China has conflkicting growth reports , can China keep suporting US securities and at what reward , and how strong can dollar hold some EU banks probalms may be delayed virus similar to US ones , timing delays with stimuli’s , querys over future Russian pricing of gas & oil for EU , UK banking isd almost nationalised & now stretched , Us manufacturing sector old tired & obsolete & uncompetitive & reliant almost now on that trillion Keynes bit , M/E blowup hititng oil prices in a GFC a disater , and numerous capital raisings and I wonder what they can see in there Balanse Sheets thet we can not see (yet) Expect an oz technical recession and budget deficit (th latter not a problam) although our Trade deficit debt of 600 billion seems to get zero coverage don’t know why
Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac 5.1 TRILLION not billion (all off balnse sheet at moment0 plus 3.3 trillion tax cuts promised (an issue even if delayed)
Agreed again Ron. The real crunch for the US is their huge debt. It is what will stop them quickly recovering. As for foreign credit, its not a question of whether the Chinese can loan to them (they can – China has huge cash reserves) but whether they are still willing to do so.
The real question mark is what debts/losses all the hedge funds have (like Madoffs scheme) which are not regularlay reported like banks and public companies. We still don’t know their positions.
Briefly @ 374
I don’t think fixing CC is easy. I think it is diabolically difficult. However, I do think fixing it would be far, far easier than suffering CC damage.
‘Easy’ is what the master politicians do all the time. If it was easy, the HowRudd Convergence (and their peers elsewhere) would have fixed it.
Yes, I am pessimistic that the national and global systems that created the CC problem will be able fix it. Logically, it is a very unlikely outcome. It would need leaders of global stature in international negotiations to actually lead. When I look at China, India, Russia, the US and the EU I am not filled with a lot of hope. When I look at what very wealthy countries like Australia are willing to put on the table under the HowRuddian Convergence, my pessimism only grows.
Australia under HowRudd had a small opportunity to show some leadership (both Kyoto and post-Kyoto). I mean small. The HowRuddian Convergence has for 12 years chosen not to show any leadership.
If the global negotiations fail it would be well past time to start working on amelioration. By failure, I mean the sort stuff that the EU has put on the table and a 5% unilateral ETS. I am not interested in that sort of smoke and mirrors. If that is all we have, the world will have opted for more Climate Change.
We should then start investing in alternative economic development to address the partial loss of irrigation industries in the Murray Darling Basin and losses to the tourism industry on the Great Barrier Reef. The lead time for the MDB has practically been frittered away by Howard in the past 12 years. So, the CC amelioration in the MDB is being done on the run. Not pretty. Let’s hope we get back even to the 80% of long term average rainfall that CSIRO seems to think we might be getting between now and 2030. However, we still have some useful lead time to put appropriate amelioration programs into place for the population centres along the Great Barrier Reef. In the circumstances, drilling for oil would have a certain symmetry to it. If the Reef is buggered an oil spill or two won’t matter all that much, anyway.
By plumping for a unilateral 5% ETS, Rudd has master-politicianed the situation extremely well. But, if global negotiations fail, a 5% ETS would not be a start, it would be a wasteful distraction up a blind alley.
Amelioration will be the go.
Boewar
“Ron @ 385
No I am not a unilateralist at all. I though that Australia should have put 20% on the table of the international negotations. It opted for a band 5-15% with a promise of a 5% unilateral ETS, come what may.
The latter would make no sense at all. Assuming the rest of the world does nought, 5% Australian equals about .0005% of the global emissions….”
Not sure what your unilateralist position wuld be if no international agreement
however to lay where I stand perhaps I could present this as 3 Australian poker hands in one Boerwar
firstly Rudd could hav chosen to make no target annousement & say i’ll wait on Coppenhaggen & abide by that , but push for as high a % target as posible
Rudd didn’t Firstley nothing over 5% was going to get Senate approval and rudd (a technocrat outcomes politcan DID want that very dificult to legislate ETS actualy passaed So a 5% target objectave achieves an ETS , th first outcome desired
Secondly th 5% says unilaterally if rest of world does nothing ..zero target agreemetn , then we ar prepared to make a “stand” at OUR econamic cost of 5% approx competitively vs our trading partners (knowing 5% is NOT adequare for CC reduction purposes of couse obviousley but to show good faith at 5% cost…big potential cost , degree unknown
Th third areas is more complex I feel , ie what to put on table Th 15% is a ‘bait’ figure…it has NOTHING to do with CC % targets themselves Rudd could hav for example put up 20% On th other hand Rudd COULD hav accepted Garnauts more likely recomendation in his Report of th lower 10% ! My understanding is Govt toyed with 10% and EU were sitting on 20% on table and wanted oz higher than Garnaut’s 10% simply for nefgotiating muscle on th USA (th key player) Everything about Coppenhaggen is first crucualy about getting US inside Kyoto as it is only County not in & getting there commitment and at an accpetable % level …therefater deels with developing countrys China and India ar next priority with some dispensations as provided for under th Kyotyp protocols…finaly6 russia via embarassment of all big econamic blocks ar “in” (as Putin will play hard ball curently on his dispensation 0% current figure to 2012)
This is where bluff and negotiations come in I believe EU were happy with Rudd at 15% , with th big econamic block EU at 20% which has equivalent GDP to USA Now th EU pressure will be you USA need to match us we’re same size…US ar reluctant about th whole Kyoto thingy including Obama …he doesn’t suport Kyoto ratification at all However if US bulk at 20% equivalent to EU , there’s oz at 15% as thnext level US ar staring at to drop to However oz ar only 5% of US gdp making it very difficult for US to go below 15% (given oz and US ar both bad emmitters) Had oz gone for 20% , th oz 5% to 20% range looked fake at glance , wuld also hav been doubkle Garnauts more likely Report recomendation of 10% leaving open to why do and Report and then double it and furthermore th 20% making us equal to EU’s 20% wuld leave reluctant th US in a take it 20% (EU/oz) or talk feast reaction (ie procrastinate…ie nothing reely) I’d assume EU hav had off record netotiating discusions with Japamn and others as well USA can not be scared away nor get off litely on % targets for CC mitigaton
Over riding all this is Country by Country posturing both for FA and domesticaly
Now even if you were to dismiss th theorys in 3rd point , th final Coppenhaggen % target will arise from behind scene deeling & negotiating and some bluff and bustar of many Nations , and LITTLE of what is said publicly re a % whether its Rudds upper 15% is relating to whether its a desirale % target for science reasons alone at all , but what can actualy get agreed by ALL Mationals at th max % posible both politcaly by Country , econamicaly and socialy by Nation and all varying by Country An international CC mitigation agreed decision therefore will include all of these matters as well as th knowldge of all of th science There is no way th decision in reality will be based on science alone even though we’d like it to be because reel World reflects those other 3 areas as well Hopefuly having got o end og my thoughts I’ve still got those poker hands , none of which ar what they seem to be
Windschuttle:
“There’s only a very small number of untruths in it,” he said. “The great majority of what the article says, 85 per cent of what it says, is perfectly legitimate points based on real footnotes, real sources and factual information.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24882024-601,00.html
OOH, AAH, NAUGHTY: Only 15% was untrue, illegitimate, unfactual, falsely footnoted and falsely sourced? What is 15% to your average black armbanded culture warrior? Wouldn’t want to let the truth get in the way of a good (his)story would we?
Could not have happened to a nicer person and a nicer journal.
Of course now the challenge will be to find out who the successful hoaxer is. I just happen to be reading ‘Gould’s Book of Fish’ and it does deal lengthily with perceptions of truth and real truth, and such like philosphical anticks… I ask myself, could Windschuttle be the thirteenth fish? Hook, line and sinker?
Ron “can China keep suporting US securities and at what reward , and how strong can dollar hold”
should hav used “will” , sorry , meant “can’ in th sense of will” agree Socrates , and th Chinese hav some intersting choises there Yes I’m quite worried about those Hedge Funds positions actualy
Springborg looks like he’s getting ready to throw in the towel as far as winning a Queensland election goes.
I don’t think he would have to worry about too many Independents supporting him even if he did go close to winning. Long serving Gladstone MP Liz Cunningham must be getting near retiring and the Nationals have done very little to endear themselves to Nicklin MP, Peter Wellington. So this leaves Dolly Pratt from Nanango and Chris Foley from Maryborough as his very skinny band of supporters if the election was close.
It is going to be very tough for Springborg to win an election with only 37% Primary vote support in the latest Newspoll and only two or three at most independents to help him. I think that what Patrick Lion meant to say was that the Independents would probably not see any reason to negotiate with Springborg.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24881157-3102,00.html
Ron @ 398
Crikey!
I will stick to my guns on the unilateral 5% ETS being a complete waste if there is no international agreement. It would be time to head for amelioration.
The school bombing is sickening. A UN official was on ABC Breakfast this morning claiming Israel had violated international law and that they are now seeking an independent investigation.
The school was being used as a shelter by the UN.
Steve,
Gee, I would have to get up pretty early to beat you to a post!
I see from your link that I was wrong about one thing yesterday- Mr Springborg was at the bike shop to launch a policy… the much anticipated and urgently needed trail bike policy.
Fargo,
Are you sure the bike shop wasn’t just telling Springborg to ‘get on his bike’ and ride off into the sunset? I’d like to see the Nationals replace Springborg with a Joh type surprise packet like Shane Knuth. That would make the next election interesting. We’d have all flying foxes shot, a huge bounty on pigs and dingoes. Kids would be rounded up and sent to boot camp at what are now holiday camp detention centres. Last time it worked for about 18 years. Knuth is just like a Joh clone. Surely someone would be able to get through to him how a malapportionment works, even if the separation of powers doctrine might be more difficult.
It was funny a couple of years ago when Shane Knuth, Member for Charters Towers (recently abolished in Redistribution) tabled this piece of electoral history in the Queensland Parliament.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/legislativeAssembly/tableOffice/documents/TabledPapers/2000/4900T3975.pdf
The next Leader of the conservatives in Queensland has been thinking long and hard about the electoral system in Queensland for a long time.
Dear Pollbludgers, I’m trying to design a profile template for every electorate at the moment, but one based on demographic statistics using the census data and other sources rather than the more orthodox type of electorate profile that looks at booths and local areas and local issues etc – something that can compliment the type of work that William does. Once it’s sorted out I can start publishing the profiles for each seat.
The problem though is deciding on which variables to use; which ones are are important or have something meaningful to say about the politics or policy implications for a seat. So if anyone has any suggestions on what should be included in the profile and why, your input would be greatly appreciated.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/01/07/what-variables-work-for-electorate-profiling/
Poss
A very interesting question – are you interested in parameters that would indicate voting intention or other more general analysis on specific issues?
For the former, I’d suggest at least the following, which are significant for various forms of actvity in my field:
- age, sex, work status, average education level, % renting/own house/paying mortgage
Some statistics don’t mean much – eg car ownership doesn’t always include company cars. Average income is very messy – average wage & salary doesn’tinclude all the ther transfer payments or investment income. Plus it assumes people truthfully declare all income, which they don’t, even to ABS, let alone the taxman. Likewise % owning shares doesn’t discriminate betwene millionaires and those witha few hundred Tesltra shares.
Sorry Poss, I jus saw your thread and will post there.
This is hardly a surprise but not great news for Adelaide. GM USA (Pontiac) to abandon selling the V8 ute there.
http://news.smh.com.au/business/us-motoring-giant-gm-cuts-the-aussie-ute-20090107-7bf2.html
The next risk will be if they drop the V8 sedans. The whole industry strategy to put all our eggs in the large car basket is proving to be as stupid as it seemed when the companies were given taxpayer $ to assist it.
Boerwar
“Ron @ 398
Crikey! I will stick to my guns on the unilateral 5% ETS being a complete waste if there is no international agreement. It would be time to head for amelioration.”
I won’t do a Pauline on that “amelioration” , but if it infers you’re gonna run to th hills to escape those hills won’t be immune from CC , and TV rseption won’t warn you
If there’s NO international agreement we don’t giv up , no way One uses th 5% (pawltry of course for cc mitigation purposes) as a trojan horse to pressure other zero target Countrys to put in a committment , A committment , an econamic sacrifice and we’ll b saying we we actualy ar doing , and concurrently up ante in discussions to get consesus by building blocks…perhaps muilti lateraly at first , and not great method vs international agreement opton but building chips by some Contry consenus to put to future coppenhaggens
One of bigest lessons of DOHA is rich nations especialy EU and USA continue to procratinate & spin to hold onto unfair trade practises & unfair tarriffs policys that discriminotely help there Nations econamicly & socialy ….despite guaranteeing that poor developing Nations don’t get a skerrick fair even trading field to trade there exports internationaly so they th poor /less dev Countrys can earn income to stiop there poor peoples starving ..and develop infrasturcture , schools , sanitation , hospitals roads etc
Boerwar th many dev Countrys unfair practises ar not reely disputed….nor is th starvation etc for th poor less dev Countrys….BUT geting intenational agreement is ….(both politcaly , econamicaly and socialy) So will intenational CC mitigaton
Your problam boerwar is you do not agree with me Probably because you assume seeing th science is clear that humans especialy politcans ar always clever …and cleverer than animals and insects yet animals talk , hav breakfaxt , hav sex , although cann’t write , and run like hell from CC if they can …they don’t always willingly comit hari kari We humans ar going to face this CC hari kari sofisticately and talk also econamics , social and politcal consequenses as well as sciense Thats what humans do , we’ve built a consumer enjoy enjoy etc based civilisation but also safety net education and hospitals for th sick etc etc
So we may hav a warts and all ETS & admit that , and a smaller % target than desired , but you don’t thow all th chickens out just because you lost th first race Its a marathon of many races , make th start and try to later fine tune whilst not giving up trying to converting other Nations who ar even more CC reluctant to do a damn thingy at all
Ron
I’ve been away for a week. Did I miss anything? I see William’s been throwing a few hand grenades to liven things up. Most unlike him. Something about Gaza.
Keep speaking out Ron but I fear it will be to no avail the chattering classes of the Liberal left are hell bent on an ETS. Theres no solid proof climate change exists as the recent cold snap in the United States proves that theirs no global warming. The lunacy of not only radical green groups but the Mainstream Political and Business elite thats going along with this evil clap trap.
An ETS will cost jobs and destroy our material wellbeing at the moment due to circumstances beyond my control have had to go on a pension this year and the thought of electricity bills and the other basic necessities of life just to appease the upper middle class wank brigade to save the planet bullshit i’m going to suffer. The Liberals will side with Rudd and push this rotten ETS through without a strong National Party theres no hope for the poor.
I can’t tell if Paul Nash is being sarcastic or not.
You attempt to disprove the existence of climate change by citing the fact that the US has experienced severe winterstorms (I saw them first hand btw)?
I’m not going to fall for the bait, just laugh hysterically.
The second part of your post is more rubbish. The “poor” are going to be given money back to offset any increase in petrol/electricity and then some more! It’s the “upper middle class wank brigade” that will be hit in the hip pocket..
Oz
Whatever the phenomenon, there is always a small, unscientific group of “denialists” with a few wacko pseudoscientists to support them. They often form little cliques to support each other. They have a variety of motives, not all of them bad.
There are Germ Theory Denialists, the Flat Earth Society, Holocaust Deniers (or Revisionists as they prefer), anti-Evolutionists and of course the Global Warming Deniers.
There is absolutely no point trying to “enlighten” them. There is no level of evidence that will convince them that they are wrong. Any evidence you show them is a conspiracy. Anything they see with their own eyes, their brain just blanks out until they see what they want.
PN
Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. One cooler year (still one of the hottest in the past 100) does not prove global warmign is false any more than the discovery of one competent policy in the Liberal Party woudl prove them ready for government. Both claims are absurd.
PN #414
“…the recent cold snap in the United States proves that theirs no global warming”
Well, old son, today it’s 39 in the Southern Highlands. Which just goes to prove that their (sic) IS global warming.
And besides, I too, have always believed that the Nats were just in politics to look after the poor and the tooth fairies.
Bryce
Actually its the poor toothfairies only.
At which year level are school children taught the difference between short term and long term trends?
Grade three?
Or (gasp) are they not taught it at all?
Diogenes
#413
“Ron I’ve been away for a week. Did I miss anything? I see William’s been throwing a few hand grenades to liven things up. Most unlike him. Something about Gaza.”
Yes Mrs diog has kept me up to date with your ‘holiday’ shananigans ….and as Mrs diog said of course shwe was always right …even when she was wRONg …that just one time
“Did I miss anything?” well Gazza story is sort of a repeat of when Rudd annoused his 5% ….th first day was revolution here ….th site’s majority revolted against Rudd demanding executions , and I hoisted th Eureka ruddy Flag defending hims with a minisecule clan , and perhaps then was deemed a CC heretic But time brought reason….you only can democraticaly pass thru a Senate what th majority Senate will agree to And its all your fault diog a South aussie mr x in th way and those foolish Labor victorians puting Fielding before a greens
and so it was with Gazza ….an uncomfortable topic for many here criticising th uncriticisable Israel , but I did , and do …th mythical belief of WW2 guilt transcending 4 generations later of rightesnous always of Israel it can always ignore any UN resulutiona nd always bomb whoever….its what th godfather of Isreal th USA its conscience demands of th World …and what th Western media ’spin’……….but again on this Site reason prevails , finaly An occupier of arab lands is bombing a defenseless city , densely populated ansd so is in fact bombing innocent civilians , th gross unproportionate response to one dead Israeli
And as those storys of dead kids dead from lasar one ton bombs starts getting onto peole’s conciousness & of th death ratio 580 Palestinien dead to 5 israeli dea….rationaly overpowers th israeli cloke of ww2 guilt is not transferable 4 generations later …and hey these Israeli’s reely ar th occupier , and why wuld not an occupied people resst with rockets etc So diog many struggle with reality that th US and Israel may actualy be wrong in th core issue being Isreaeli occupation of arab lands and so wrong since 1967 as th causeee …and even th wrongs of th Palestiniens (and there hav there sins incl suicide guys ) aar minor in context to not only th unproportionate Palestinen deaths from th Israelis but importanttley what is th sore , occupation…and whist occupation continues so will legit resistance and those rockets will keep firing
and a Paelstinien school is bombed…………far from Israel’s UN sanctioned borders , when will Israel ever learn
Mitcho won it for OZ and Haydo “almost” lost it for OZ. It’s time for Haydo to go.
Predictably, Christian Kerr has not cited one alternative viewpoint in his advertorial about Nuclear Power.
A consultancy with ANSTO awaits him if Rupert’s cull gets mean …
Ron
What I don’t know about the ME could fill 1300 pages of Robert Fisk’s 1320 page book on the ME. The 20 pages I did manage to read just depressed me and I chucked in in for the much more uplifting biography of Oppenheimer.
You might recall my 100:1 ratio of dead Arabs to Israelis. 580:5 is smack on the money. One thing I do know is there is never one side to a story. I’d be pretty annoyed if those dippy Palestinians kept lobbing rockets onto Adelaide. I’m not sure what they hope to accomplish. It’s in my “too hard” basket.
BTW What has the Ruddster and Smith said about it
#420
Better yet, when are people taught the difference between “global climate” and localised weather events isolated to the northwest and northeast of the USA.
Damn, I said I wasn’t going to bite.
Except, of course, that they had effectively stopped lobbing rockets into Israel after the ceasefire was put in place. Then Israel broke the ceasefire.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
I don’t wish to turn this into an Israeli bashing session but while I agree with Ron I feel that it is even worse than he said in 421. Israel has been getting away with crimes against civilians due to WWII guilt for a long time. The worst examples actually occcurred in the 1947-48 war, like the masacre at Deir Yassin village by Jewish militias. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_during_the_1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_war
The Age Poll on “Does former prime minister John Howard deserve the Medal of Freedom?”
82% – NO
18% – Yes
http://www.theage.com.au/polls/form.html
Fin
That is a pretty low result even for an Age poll! It often seems to me that those polls turn out around 25/75 in favour of teh Labor position on any questions with a political slant. Presumably it reflects the on-line readership. But that number suggests even a few Glen types voted No!
Au contraire, Finns. Of course he does. Bush gives them to everyone who has had their life justly wrecked when they exchanged their dignity and reputation for backing his idiotic Presidency. George Tenet, Paul Bremer, Tony Blair, Donald Rumsfeld and Norman Podhoretz are all Bush II winners so Howie’s in good company with that bunch of miscreants and reprobates.
John: “Aw Janette, people are saying I don’t deserve it.”
Janette: “John, sweetheart, you are The Man Of Steel. Never forget that.”
John: “Yeah, I know. People are cruel aren’t they. That’s what George said anyway. I like George. He’s my best mate. Alright, better get some shut-eye. Night night.”
BTW
Bush Himself has been awarded the US Defence Dept medal for distinguished public service.
I kid you not
Paul Nash @ 414
lol. You could usefully have made references to:
1. 22% in MDB storages
2. desalination CC amelioration schemes
3. the Isaeli/Palestine War v5.2009
4. recycled sewerage
5. GMOs
6. government accountability for uncontrolled wildfires
7. european carp
8. hedge funds
9. Bretton Woods
10. acid soils
11. Toorak tractors
12. alcopops
13. pokies
14. the Murray flowing backwards
15. the republic
Opinion in the US about Israel invading Gaza is split almost equally for-against, although they blame Palestine for the current flare-up. Repugs are more in favour than Dems.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/americans_closely_divided_over_israel_s_gaza_attacks
It shows just how desperate Bush is to cling to his buddy from Oz.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/howard-gets-into-exclusive-digs-first/2009/01/07/1231004089152.html
Where are his manners! He should have insisted that he and Janette, instead of the Obamas, stay in the hotel. The good constituents of Bennelong, who so faithfully voted for Mr Howard on four occasions in respect, primarily, of his Old Australian deportment and values, would be appalled – if they weren’t so whacked out on Mogadon!
Diogenes, shows what a good job the media have done in the US of hoodwinking the people.
Today in The Australian there was a story about a poll carried out by UMR about what people thought would be our major power source would be in 20 years. 26% said solar and 20% said nuclear but according to The Australian that means that “The nuclear debate has been reignited” and they dug out Ziggy Switkowski and gave him about half the article to rabbit out on about it.
Howard/Obama Blair House story is a standard media beat up.
Does any of the following (from The Age) make sense?
“The couple will stay just one night – January 12 – and will not be accompanied by an entourage as some reports suggested, he said.”
“Only the Howards are staying at Blair House before the medal ceremony. Mr Blair traditionally stays at the British Embassy and Mr Ulribe found other accommodations.”
“As for the Howards and the Obamas cohabiting in the manse, security arrangements would, no doubt, make that impossible.”
So – 119 rooms, only the Howards staying there, for one night, no room for the Obama’s, security arrangements make it impossible?
Adelaide wins again. Turnbull has adopted Downer’s former Advisor.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/07/2461151.htm
Finns, for some time now there has been a rule in force forbidding Medal of Freedom winners being compared to unpleasant animals. Please review the comment moderation guidelines. Normally I would edit or delete offending comments, but I’m currently working off my PDA and it’s too much bother.
William, that’s a great rule! I’m surprised it’s not also a US federal offence (something like Dishonourable Anti-Patriotism or Treacherous Iconoclasm).
Diogenes
#424
“Ron What I don’t know about the ME could fill 1300 pages of Robert Fisk’s 1320 page book on the ME..
I’d be pretty annoyed if those dippy Palestinians kept lobbing rockets onto Adelaide. I’m not sure what they hope to accomplish. It’s in my “too hard” basket.”
Well diog if I published a ME book you’d understand all Only current problem is publishers cann’t find a lawyer to understand my lingos….so th silks can not guarantee I’m not reely defaming not just someone , but everyone , by camaflage
Now if Rann th man your loved SA Premier invaded East Timor and made it th 2nd South Australian outpost of th cities of Churchs , then plonked th East Timorese in one little corner of East Timor , surrounded it with a military parameter like a prison & contolled veryting going in and out incl food at min/lower levels , and then you South Aussies occupied th rest of East Timor building South Australian
suburban homes…claiming you reely ar not occupying , and you reely ar there temporarily , and yous South Aussie occupiers wish for peace with th East Timorise
But whenever th East Timorise resisted your occupation & often brutaly with suicide guys (with small relative South aussie deaths but still deaths) to get you to withdraw but, and then yous th South Aussies occupiers responded unproportionately killing East Toimorise at ratio of 100 to 1 …and also dropped one ton bombs on civilian East Timorese all densely squeezed in th “prison” …including numerus kids
….. your answer “I’d be pretty annoyed if those dippy East Timorese (Palestinians) kept lobbing rockets onto Adelaide South Australia” …..to forse you South Australians to withdraw from East timor
“I’m not sure what they hope to accomplish. It’s in my “too hard” basket”
th French Resistanse in WW2 answer was because th Germans were there on French soil , you resist because you resist , relativaties to success ar irrelevant to an occupied people
Ronactes-opolus said one nite ..when one wants justice (no occupier) and th other wants National security (from that occupyee) , justice (no occupier) for one must presede National security for th other ……whereas if National security was sought by one to presede justise (no occupier) from th other , how can there be National security for th formar
That superseded Ronactes-opolus’ss …when 2 sides ar wRONg , but one is th core cause & he kills more, then th less wRONg can be legit critisised for death brutality but th more wRONg must be condemned for a 100:1 ratio death brutality , and after th respective critisism and condemnation then th solution to cease it , remove th core cause …occupation what follows concurrently from there is US deterreance presence
I disagree with posters critism of Howard’s Medal of Freedom…..there’s always a silver lining , somewhere when th foolish Bush is involved
Can you imagine a dinner party at th Howards , and Janette “acicdently” drops …yes John got a US Medal of Freedom
Gasps abound in admiration So Johnie is feteed and envied publicly around th wedgie-wood dinner table with such acclaim Only th worthy and exceptional wuld get that honour say all Oh yes says Johnnie , laping it all up , alot of consideration goes into awarding this honour , it was Fighting th War on Terror
Were you th only one John to get one in 2009 No , Tony Blair also got a US Medal of Freedom as well Great man that Tony Blair for a Labor fellow , yep stood side b side with us and USA in Iraq fighting th War on Teror…yep thats what th Medal of freedom is all about , things reely important
Who was th ilustrous exalted third awardeee ….silense Well says Jonnie , um as Janette’s face goes white in horror that Johnie ids heading for a fall…again , it went to th Columbian President Alvao Aribe What did he do fighting th War on Terror…..
So for mine Howard and Aribe , a match of historic relavance , and numerous future dinner party embarassed silenses
boerwar, I agree that if there is no agreement on reducing greenhouse gas emissons, then amelioration will be the only choice left. (I know a few experts who say this is already the only pratical choice, that it’s too late for reductions to work.)Likewise, it will follow that there would be no point in persisting with a unilateral 5% reduction goal – even a 100% reduction in Australian emissions will make no difference at all if other countries continue to emit at present rates. One thing seems illogical to me though: why would you hold out for a voluntary 20% or 25% or some other higher reduction, when you would abandon even 5% anyway? It looks like bravado to me. The goal has to be to try to negotiate to a higher target. If Australia bowls up to Copenhagen having declared its innings closed at, say, 20%, where is Australia’s bargaining position? Other countries will just say “Thanks for that Australia. Well done. We’ll let you know what we decide, but well done, you’ve made it easier for us to do less than we otherwise might have agreed to do…well done!”
Another huge corporate economic financial scandal, this time in India. The founder and Chairman of Satyam admitted that over a number of years, he had cooked the book by declaring:
1. non-existent cash in the bank to the tune of $billions
2. Fictitious assets
3. Inflated earnings and operating profits
4. Try to persuade Satyam to buy non IT companies that are associated with his sons.
Satyam is also quite active in OZ. Its shares have fallen by 82%. I think the India IT outsourcing industry will take a big beating.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7815031.stm
Some even called it India’s Enron.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Software/Indias_own_Enron_scandal_Analysts/articleshow/3947447.cms
Paul Nash
#414
“Keep speaking out Ron …….at the moment due to circumstances beyond my control have had to go on a pension this year and the thought of electricity bills and the other basic necessities of life just to appease the upper middle class wank brigade to save the planet bullshit i’m going to suffer.”
Hello Paul , I’d like to reply just to situation you find & sorry its occurred
Compensation for ETS will be made deliberately far in EXCESS of th projected costs for certain Australian groups less able to afford to pay incresed costs from th ETS , including working familys , low income singles , pensioners , self funded retirees to 50K single 90k couple , whilst high incomers get zero So your situation is covered and so it should be
This Carbon reducton scheme will add approx 1.1% to inflaton in first year It will collect $12 billion from carbon permits in 2011-12 , but $8 billion will go back to oz households in indirect payments , tax offsets , concessions and fuel excise reducton
Even an age pension couple with $65,000 in private income will collect a NET benefit of $1636, or $31.50 a week , net being over projected costs
So therefore if CC does not occur , working familys , low income singles , pensioners & self funded retirees will still be financially better off ….courtesy of higher incomers , a wealth redistributon , rather than courtesy of CC
I’m impressed by the clout you attribute to Australia over the world. Countries, seemingly knowing full well the dire consequences that lie ahead if they don’t take drastic action, will look at Australia’s so called feeble attempt and copy them because ….. well why? Why would a country committed to climate change and convinced drastic action is needed be convinced by a minnow country that a low target is the way to go?
Doesn’t that mean other countries can’t think for themselves? What hold would we have over them if they were truly committed to the cause? Why would they accept us as being the gurus of CC? If Australia’s ETS is so poor and can be proven to be so why wouldn’t a thinking country go for higher targets with a view to encourage Australia to do likewise?
Amigo FINNS
“Some even called it India’s Enron.”
“enRON”…..my name gets tarnished everywhere
I hate to say it again, but the tarnishing is already much worse than that Ron:
Previous US president (quite senile in later years): RONald reagan
Notorious polluter of childrens food: RONald mcdonald
Nutty inventor of scientology: L RON hubbard
Chris Kenny, former Downer staffer and Advertiser columnist, to become Turnbull’s new chief of staff.
…………. ew.
As is so often the case, it falls to Harry Hutton to restore sanity to the Israel-Palestine debate.
448 “I hate to say it again, but the tarnishing is already much worse than that Ron:”
well genuine thanks Socrates …..FINNS depressed me but you’ve made me feeling much better now
Briefly
Thank you for your considered response.
There are two ‘It is too late’ groups. The first believes that it is all over bar the shouting and that it is alread too late, period. Game over. I know some of the folk in this group. Some of them are your normal, thoughtful persons, some are scientists, and some are very experienced and reasonable lay people. They are literally not at all fussed about various levels of CC response policy.
The second group believes that it is partially too late, but not too late to avoid the worst of climate change. I belong to the second group. Examples of damage already done include the MDB disaster and to the reliability of urban water supplies in Australia. In other words, whether we like it or not, we are already into CC amelioration. It is just that nobody likes to actually call it that.
Again, I may not have been too clear, but I would have like to see Australia take the lead on the issue by saying the world should agree to 20%, that if the world did that, Australia would support it wholeheartedly. As a wealthy country, Australia could throw other things into the pot, including the provision of renewable aid to third parties, support for afforestation, and so on.
I may not have been clear but if the rest of the world does not do 20%, neither should Australia. If there is no general agreement, then we should simply forget an Australian contribution of nothing much in terms of the percentage of the global CO2 levels. We should get straight into strategic amelioration.
The reason I hammer the Australian unilateral 5% ETS position is that it might give punters a faux feeling of CC security. A unilateral 5% ETS is simply poor policy. It has a significant opportunity cost. The proper policy in that situation would be to target amelioration strategically.
In terms of ‘heading or the hills’ or any other silly survivalist fantasies, I am not into that sort of stuff. If the world’s preferred policy position on CC response is essentially ‘do nothing’ cloaked in smoke and mirrors, then the appropriate policy stance for Australian governments to take is a strategic, considered and planned approach to amelioration.
The current approach to amelioration is chaotic – look at the responses to the MDB crisis and the panic purchase of massive desalinaization plants. My concern is that it is this style of amelioration that we should be avoiding.
The major current drivers for amelioration are panic reactions by politicians trying to avoid punishment at the polls. The really important current driver, though, is virtually hidden from punters. It is the global reinsurance industry. I recommend a thorough read of the MunichRe website. Unlike politicians, those guys have a single bottom line and have absolutely no difficulty working with 95% probabilities. The resultant drivers are already affecting patterns of capital investment significantly.
My point is, amelioration is happening now. At the political level it is chaotic and panic stations stuff. At the commercial level, the drivers are already quite strategic.
William @ 450
Thank you. What a hoot.
Terry Boylan’s ads in Frome lead with: “the hurt to be caused to Nyrstar (Port Pirie smelter) by Labors Carbon Trading Scheme” – along with the familiar black and white photos and scarey red text
“As is so often the case, it falls to Harry Hutton to restore sanity to the Israel-Palestine debate”
I recalled gusface had made an accurate telling point a few days ago better than I could hav in message , and it has takken me 20 min to find it
Gusface
#358 “Our voiices should not be stifled,or our concerns muted just because it is Israel,they should be evn louder and more condemning BECAUSE it’s Israel”
Th uncriticisable is no longer , for mine Its an immense challenge for th new POTUS and I wish him well in obtaining justice & total non israeli occupation for th Palstiniens and safe national security for Israel
Ron If whats happening now leads as I fear to a resumption of suicide attacks in Israel then the outrage will leave the Obama administration right where Israel want them..
boerwar, I agree with nearly everything you have to say. I suppose I think that if it’s not too late already, it soon will be. Where we differ is on the merits of trying to get 5% into law. I think it is worth doing almost because it is not a boat-rocker. There has been so much backsliding and avoidance on this issue that even standing still is starting to look good in my eyes. Considering that a straight up 15% or 20% has almost no chance of being passed by the Senate, just about any ETS that will pass is worth grabbing imho. (You can’t underestimate the willingness of the Libs to play for political advantage on this issue…)
PAAPTSEF
A cynical person may sugest thats precisely Israel’s objective…result is de facto Israel continues to occupy using resistanse attacks be they rockets or suiciders as th excuse for continuing to occupy… I mean THAT has been th excuse for 42 years
A rational person wuld sugest that th Palestiniens as ocupyee WILL continue to resist even if it is rockets and no suiciders…th rockets ALONE ar th israeli excuse for continuing to occupy arab lands
Only way out of such a chicken and egg conflict situation PAAPTSEF is either
1/ Palestiniens a/ FIRST cease resisting th occupier(Israel) …and b/ for how long …and c/ will subsequent Israeli withdrawal be unconditional OR
2/ th Occupier (Israel) FIRST withdraws (with concurent US military deterrane assuranses for Israel’s security)
For 42 years US/Israeli policy unsucessfuly has tried 1/ a/ (defying natural human occupyees desire to resist an occuppier ….and hads NEVEr satisfactorily answered either 1/ b/ or 1/c
I’m suggsting 2/……and NOTE point 2/ DOES include satsifying Israel’s alleged sole reason for ocupying….safe national security
Briefly @ 457
Glad we are getting there!
The correct thing for both Labour and the Liberals at this stage would be to say they are waiting for the world to come to a decision on percentage targets but that they believe that 20% on a global basis is both achievable and very desirable.
In the interim, should the Liberals knock back a 5% unilateral ETS, good on them. It would be the right decision, even if made for the wrong reasons. But the Liberals will not knock it back. So, we will have two parties supporting an irrational policy because of the HowRuddian Convergence (it is ‘practical’, it is ‘balanced’ it won’t frighten the horses, and both parties believe it will assist in their election prospects).
If the whole world goes to 20%, the Libs will not be able to knock back 20% for
Australia. They might be able to knock back specific national mechanisms, but they will not be able to knock back the 20%.
Boerwar
#452
I tink your position may hav changed Certianly irrespective some posters objected to Ruddd’s 5% as being too small and that he should hav annouced a higher unilateral % target My response was that no more than 5% could get Senate approval now anyway
then there was th critisism we shuld make a “stand” My response has been WHATEVER Coppenhaggen agreed to would be our target anyway beit say 15%….and that if either or BOTH th libs and Greens rejected Rudds subsequent Senate Bill incororating that World agreed CC target Rudd wuld go a DD and I suggested he’d probably win it …irrespective a Lib scare campaign in middle of GFC
YOUR position today (perhaps always) is that oz declare support for a 20% internatonal CC agreement , and if no 20% agreement then oz should hav a 0% target , and oz take your “amelioration” route (a term I’ve now looked up and am frankley none th wiser of re CC solutions )
So you’ve rulled out accepting both a 15% World agreemtn (guess 510 ppm co2 level) as unacceptable , or a 10% World agreement (about 550 ppm co2 level) as unacceptable , and also ruled out an agreed possible 2nd step in either such World agreement for commencing 20% at a later date
Also in th absence of a world Agreement , you’ve also ruled out oz retaining a unilateral 5% and its operational ETS as a proof of a “start” (of a provable intent to other zero target Countrys) in post 2009 to try to convince those reluctant THEN existing 0% target Countrys to also commit to a 5% target ETS…..allowing th opton of those Countrys having also started an operational ETS (th hard part) to in future increase that target under either there future new Leadership or being later more informed
Remember Lance Armstrongs words on th Moon
The dudded Windschuttle can serve it up but he can’t take it.
Windschuttle thinks that the reason he published an article that was at least 15% crap was that he was tricked. Yes… now, what part of ‘hoax’ does this very clever man not understand?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24885923-7582,00.html
‘Windschuttle, a leading antagonist against the cultural Left and black armband brigade in the history wars, complained that if it were any other editor who had fallen for such a hoax, it wouldn’t be a story.
Windschuttle claims Gould, who is yet to claim a $200 cheque for the story, “tricked” him into printing the article after a brief correspondence that was conducted entirely via email.’
Ron
Golly, I thought I was beginning to persuade a few folks! Now you spoil my fun by saying I have shifted my position…ie that folk have persuaded me… Let’s hope the truth is somewhere in the middle of that one.
Cf Lance Armstrong *grins*, if the Tour de France ever has a lunar stage, I will follow his words with more interest than I have in the past. If it is that other Armstrong fellow, then my view is that we are well past the need for small steps. Not interested. It is already partially too late (MDB, unreliable urban water supplies, millions of hectares of conifers lost to bark beetles etc, etc). We need to stop fooling around with toddlers steps and stop fooling the punters with an irrelevant 5% ETS.
Cf ‘amelioration’, I hadn’t thought too much about a definition but I suppose it might be something like: ‘actions taken to adapt to the adverse effects of climate change.’ I think it sort of stands in opposition to CC Response, which is essentially about reducing CC.
I actually don’t like the word ‘amelioration’ much but I think it might be the more-or-less established term. Happy to move on to another one if someone can coin it.
Australia should have put 20% on the table. It did not.
Australia will have to go with whatever the world goes with. This could be:
1. Nothing, in which case a 5% unilateral ETS is a very bad policy. Amelioration will be the go.
2. Nothing much, dressed up with smoke and mirrors (the most likely outcome). 10%, with a whole lot of fudging, smoke and mirrors, ‘offsets’ and let-outs is a Nothing outcome. European Green politicians (for what that is worth) are saying the EU’s 20% is actually closer to 6%-7% once the smoke and mirrors have been removed. This is par for the EU course. They will continue to shift their really dirty stuff beyond their boundaries (while continuing consumption patterns), will do a bit of fiddling around the edges with renewables, and will do some sequestration in third world countries. It is just like a magic pudding. Everyone keeps consuming and the cake is still there at the end. So are the CO2 levels.
3. Third global oucome is something like a nominal 15%. Australia will comply with the international regime. It will most likely be, once the fudging, the backsliding and the smoke and mirrors have been taken into account, something well below a real 10%. It will not be enough.
4. Fourth global outcome is something like a nominal 20%. For the reasons outlined above, this will turn out to be a real 10%. Barely acceptable.
Interesting story by Patrick Lion in the Curious Snail this morning explaining why the Queensland National Party might suddenly be interested in trail bikes. It turns out that Springborg has been stung by criticism Clive Palmer sponsored his free Helicopter and plane trips.
I’m sure that Queensland taxpayers won’t mind paying for Springborg to use commercial planes and charter flights as well as his chauffeur driven car during the election campaign. He is after all looking for a job working for the taxpayer rather than, Clive Palmer, Queensland’s richest man, isn’t he?
Then after his third defeat as Opposition Leader, Springborg can go back to his property and ride trail bikes round and round his huge property for evermore, saving taxpayers all the costs of keeping him as Opposition Leader.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24885038-952,00.html
On the point about ‘ I don’t want the campaign being hijacked’. A bit late to worry about that the Liberal National support has broken through it’s trendline and is in freefall. It actually happened just before the September Newspoll was released showing the Liberal National Party to be at their peak. They are now in terminal decline.
Steve
Any news on, or insights into, Brough’s future?
This is enough to make you laugh, especially (6) and (7)
Just look at Satyam’s credentials.
1. It is in top four IT exporters from India
2. it is a $2-billion blue-chip company listed on the New York Stock Exchange
3. It operates in 66 countries worldwide and counts 185 of the Fortune 500 companies among its clients,
4. It employs 53,000 people,
5. It is audited by a Big Four audit firm, PricewaterhouseCoopers;
6. It was awarded the Golden Peacock Award for Excellence in Corporate Governance in 2008 by the World Council for Corporate Governance and,
7. It’s chief hacker, Mr Raju himself was chosen the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year 2007
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200901080339.htm
If i were a tiger, i would sue for defamation against my reputation. But what can you say about the reputation of PricewaterhouseCoopers and Ernst & Young.
another enRON indeed.
Doo RON RON yeah Doo RON RON. Amigo, what have u done with the RONnettes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz4J3ckSR7s
Finns
Having been “let go” just before chrissy,by a software firm (which I cant name)
and watching whats happening in the UK and Ireland, I think afew more satyam’s are on the radar.
Rationalisation will decimate (at least) the whole software/services sector.
Back to Aust politics
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/truce-called-on-hardline-sentencing/2009/01/07/1231004105755.html
“THE NSW Opposition has pledged to end the “law and order auction” in a dramatic break with the tradition of promising to increase punishments and fill jails that has characterised every state election campaign since 1988.”
Credit where its due, its a good move – the right thing, hope it really transforms into action.
Sertse
yes it is miles better than what comes out of the mouth of the recent newly wed
“we will fill up the vacant prison cells, once we do that we will build more prisons”
This from a government who has no money and runs hugh deficits and cannot spend to stop NSW from going into a recession
462 Boerwar – Maybe instead of the dreaded “HowRuddian Convergence” we now have the BoerwaRON convergence happening.
469 – Of course if this had been a Labor government coming out with this policy you would have been all over it like a rash dovif with the old catch cry “Labor is weak on crime.” Now the Libs have to deal with that and probably from many of their own supporters. Labor will be seen as strong on crime by comparison.
“We will fill up the vacant prison cells, once we do that we will build more prisons” – Something the Libs advocated for many years and did a good job of selling it. So much so they may have difficulty selling their new policy.
A “courageous” policy that by the Libs and I must say a good one.
Well, there you go. A so called weak ETS with handouts everywhere for everybody according to its detractors and here we have the miners complaining. Imagine if it had been a strong ETS.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24885930-601,00.html
Garry Bruce 471
I have no policy on crime, I think reduction of crime is the only thing I want. I do think some people deserve to spend their life in prison (Murderer, Child sex offenders). I think Greg Smith who I believe has a DPP background would be one of the people who might have some idea of what works.
But I think you are correct in one thing, having lived in NSW for the last 20 years, I think I would be protesting about tax cuts from this incompetant NSW ALP government. But the way the idiots are spending, I do not think I will get any tax cuts
Outing ‘Sharon Gould’: the hoaxer’s identity revealed
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/contentmakers/
Amigo FINNS
#466
“Just look at Satyam’s credentials……..But what can you say about the reputation of PricewaterhouseCoopers and Ernst & Younga nother enRON indeed.
Doo RON RON yeah Doo RON RON. Amigo, what have u done with the RONnettes? ”
Amigo , th RONnettes that I released on those Ivory Tower lot on G island devasting there defenses , deserved some R & R and now ar getting specialised CC training by amigo Vera
That word “audit” in ronaconamics just means some auditer guys charging an exhorbitant fee “as “professionals” used an adding machine to confirm th companies books of figures do reely add up to each total So its quite sopfisticated…. tink people believe th numbers in company accounts ar reel figures rather than mirrirs , and that auditers ar verifying that
However accountanys accounting system is quite equitable to both th “left” and th “right” ….you see everytime they put a figure on th ‘left’ side , they then put exactlky th same number on th “right” side How fair is that
Amigo Ronnie,
i knew that if i let you loose, you will find a political angle to the Satyam fraud. we, on the “left” side of the ledger, of course, were always there first and dictate the entry. those on the “right” always follow us and even they are right, they are always wRONg.
Just like someone we know well, no name mention here. You know: “XXXX, you are wRONg, again”. I am just too scare that i might offend William again. The almighty William might insert a new rule that we cant call XXXX as XYZ or FW.
Gus, i used to run my own IT Company and got out after the Dotcom crash, thanks God for that. Best thing i have ever done. i really dont know how IT companies make money these days as IT has become such a commodity.
Punter, please come back, all is forgiven.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/pietersen-replaced-by-strauss-on-day-of-farce-1231829.html
The Poms could be innovative and try an actual Pom as captain! Maybe even make a new selection criteria, ie the need to be a Pom to be in the Pommy team.
Fifty years ago it used to be a trivia qiestion requiring some good knowledge of cricket and its history to pick an English cricket team of foreign born test players, now it is possible to do so just from South Africans over the last couple of decades.
It must make the players feel special to be chosen these days, about as patriotic as the Legion Etrangere.
473 dovif – I don’t get it. IYHO should the NSW government spend or not? Should they give tax cuts or not? Should they try and fix the mess or not? Or don’t you care?
LOL – yeah, I believe in motherhood too. Nice avoidance tactic.
FINNS
#476
Amigo Ronnie,
Ron : However accountanys accounting system is quite equitable to both th “left” and th “right” ….you see everytime they put a figure on th ‘left’ side , they then put exactlky th same number on th “right” side How fair is that
Amigo FINNS : “i knew that if i let you loose, you will find a political angle to the Satyam fraud. we, on the “left” side of the ledger, of course, were always there first and dictate the entry. those on the “right” always follow us and even they are right, they are always wRONg.”
yes Amigo we of th ‘left’ ar always first , us being on th left ledger side & those ‘right’ that follow uus & copy us still get it wRONg I mean interest rates drop when we take over is not a coincidense
BTW , all these South Africaans playing for england as captains …..does this mean we look forward to many replacement Tony Greig clones on channel 9 ….for ever Then at Olympics we hav Jamacans sprinting for England , geez next they’ll want to win Worldt english speekin contest……and I’m not changing from oz
Surely not even the AOU (Anti-Obama Union) registered and living here can disagree with this.
http://news.smh.com.au/world/obama-vows-wall-street-overhaul-20090108-7cko.html
[Surely not even the AOU (Anti-Obama Union) registered and living here can disagree with this.
http://news.smh.com.au/world/obama-vows-wall-street-overhaul-20090108-7cko.html
But that means SOCIALISM!!!
But Dario some of those AOU members are socialists at heart.
btw, the “captain” appointed to replace Pieterson, Johan Sebastian Strauss, is also a SA.
#485 – GB, Obi is having a tough time today explain his “duality” proposal of trying to cut the budget deficit at the same trying to spend another $1.2Trillion to create 3m jobs.
Sorry, yes he CAN as he walks on the water of the Sea of Galilee as well. If only Hamas would let him.
Ever thought that with the GFC a change of tune is warranted Finn or is that just a no, no. So which is it IYHO, he should spend or he shouldn’t? Or doesn’t it really matter because whatever he does you’ll find fault with it?
hi Ron, I’m back , those Ronnettes are uncontrollable,tasted blood on G island and have turned feral.
Obama says don’t you worry about the Middle East he’ll have plenty to say about it after the 20th!
Let’s see now that’s 2 weeks away I’d hope the Israelies had stopped their mass murder by then…. and I bet Obama is hoping the same thing, ie that’s it’s all sorted before he has to take control of the whole mess.
GB, i am already warming up for OBI as he has just created Clinton Mark III and with Hillary at the State and Billy at Stateless, the Trinity will change the World for the better. Well, better than the one Dubya left behind anyway. So we are on the same side. I just want to make sure Obi delivers.
Amigo Vera, this amigo thinks you need a new hairdo.
487 – Finn, fair enough, good to hear. Let’s hope he can do something otherwise we’re stuffed.
Nobody has an opinion on Chris Kenny, former Downer staffer and Advertiser journalist, becoming Turnbull’s chief of staff?
Finns
is this OK
Tried to change avatar but diddn’t work?
Amigo Vera, i was thinking more like this:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/116/309229631_8d6d76ce43.jpg?v=0
Amigo vera, you have to clear your cache. the new hairdo is definitely much smoother.
Wow Finns. Not anything like what i was thinking of.
After working for some time with the notoriously moody Turnbull, Chris Kenny may lose his patience and advise that the Opposition Leader apply a Taser to his vitals* …
* This would have sounded so much more poetic if I’d used the “t” word here … ah, but alas, rules are rules …
Amigo Vera, that was especially designed and created for the Ronnettes. But since you are the Amigo, you have the first option.
bob1234
At least we don’t have to put up with Kenny’s pitiful attempts at journalism in the Tiser any more. If Turnbull can’t do any better than Kenny for his Chief Of Staff, it’s time he stopped trying.
BTW I’ve been reliably informed that Rann will have a Cabinet reshuffle shortly after the Frome by-election.
Chairman Rudd’s army is growing
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/08/2461647.htm
Finns am testing you avatar… here goes…
THE teenage son of Queensland’s richest man Clive Palmer, and so-called ‘’sugar daddy” of the LNP – the new party created by the Liberal National merger), has won pre-selection at the next state election.
The Courier-Mail reports the billionaire iron ore magnate’s 18-year-old son Michael will contest the seat of Nudgee on Brisbane’s northside.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24886844-5006786,00.html
Well he may do better than Max Swanson’s amazing 28% at the last State Election and he was the only person to nominate for the LNP in Nudgee, but geez.
Politics is perception, and my perception is that the LNP is too close to the Palmer family.
Will the Borg realise, after he loses again in Sept., that he stop playing politics and go back to his farm?
Amigo Vera,
you were Aunty “rip your arms off” Jack and now you are “Angry Anderson”. Is that a good progress?
Finns , I’m confused, I deleted Angry A and tried to use your flash hairdo as avatar but am still seeing my original fuzzy hair on my computer?
Vera, i am seeing the afro hairdo. it’s beautiful. clear your cache again.
Amigo Vera, you are a true Amigo for creating your own beautiful avatar !!!!
Listening to ABC Radio this arvo they interviewed the Seven Network’s Washington Correspondent on the Howard accomodation thingy.
Then it was the Fairfax Book Review bloke on the Cuba Docs of Hemmingway.
I am getting a tad peeved at our ABC using commercial media “experts” for comments.
Vera
#486
“hi Ron, I’m back , those Ronnettes are uncontrollable,tasted blood on G island and have turned feral.”
Glad you ar back Vera and good health Yes Vera I did let th Ronnettes off th lease abit , but they just so loved demolishing those G Island elitists what could I do , but let them enjoy enjoy ……but in time they will follow your lead
I saw your post on Ruddys influense in increasing Students learning Mandarin , a leader indeed.. th language Manda-rin ….could Manda-ron be next
I do hope everyone has checked out FirstDogOnThe Moon’s latest offering apropos the Howards appropriating the Obamas residence, prior to acrually moving in to the White House? Apparently, folk in the U.S. are less than pleased and are recommending boycott of everything Australian. Are there any provisions, anywhere, for a previous P.M. to be stripped of their post P.M. gratuities? If not, why not? The man is a disgrace.
acrually = actually.
BTW, why do the people identifying as the Amigos on this site always think they are right? Do you think simply repeating things or simply backing each other up, with sometimes fairly puerile rubbish, is in any way informative?
I’ve followed this for a fairly long period of time, and while sometimes there is information to be had which I can then go elsewhere to verify, a lot of the time people are simply making assertions.
Surely, this lessens the usefulness of using William’s fine site to discuss politics?
It says a lot about the decline and fall of Bush that the mainstream US media are attacking Howard as a proxy to attack Bush. Howard is less than an ant to these people, it is just his proximity to Bush that is drawing attention. Bush is as toxic as ebola at the moment.
However, Michael, it is just really, really bad manners from both Bush and Howard. The analogy to ebola is right though.
Harry
Im surprised Glen isn’t weighing in on the debate about that upstart Howard!
I mean howie of all people was about tradition, wasnt he?
actually it’s worse than bad manners, Bush would have known that the Obama’s were entitled to Blair House at this time, he and Laura used it before his first term, it’s tradition the president elect stays in Blair House whilst awaiting the swearing in, most take it over in december or very early january, besides the American public putting up Howard they also have to pay not only for the Obama’s hotel stay, with the security taking over the floor above and underneath the Obama’s rooms, but as the hotel unlike Blair House is out of the White House security zone they also have to block off the surrounding streets and put up bollacks at a great inconvenience to the locals, theres a story going around that Howard was only invited to stay after Bush knocked back Obama, anyway ive been doing the round of the American blogs and they’re not happy little vegemites, i wont repeat what they have to say about Bush and Howard–go see for yourselves, i think the politest remark was something about a freeloading squatter.
I hope the yanks realise Howard got his arse royally booted from office…
Obama hasnt done anything for America…Howard stuck by America during its darkest hours after September 11 and supported US foreign policy in the War on Terror and the sacrifice of both our militaries in their endevours in Iraq and Afghanistan whilst Obama has made just one trip to Iraq…Obama isnt the President yet and so he is like anybody else in America and he should wait his turn…if he doesnt like it he could go and live with the Bidens…
Anyway who cares about whether the Obamas can live in Blair House it’s not news and it is frankly stupid to be even discussing it…Fmr PM Howard is going for one night big whoop!
Finns
The fallout from satyam begins
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24889172-664,00.html
“CORPORATE Australia’s push to export IT jobs to India is in disarray following a $1.84 billion fraud involving one of the world’s key outsourcing companies.”
Oooops big time!
What an odious little man. True to type right to the end.
For gods sake Fulvio has Obama won any medals for his work for America no, Howard has and he deserves more respect for his acheivements than Obamas which is to win one election….
Howard has become a model former PM unlike that grumpy old fart Keating.
LOL. Good one Glen. Now my turn. Did you hear the one about …..
My dog one a medal once. At least in Fido’s case it could rationally be argued the mutt deserved it.
“Howard has become a model former PM ”
Does that mean that after the medal ceremony, he is booked for a shoot for “victoria’s secret”
I bet your dog licked the odd bum or two as well Fulvio.
“won”
Let’s not go there, Gary….
Well that’s one medal Rudd wont be getting lol!
What, the Medal of Fleadom?
“What, the Medal of Fleadom?”
absolute pearler that one Fulvio.
Maybe Rudd is hankering for an Order of Lenin from Hu Jintao lol!
Yes i know its a Russian award but i cant find any Chinese Medals to award Rudd lol!
Harry “Snapper” Organs
” BTW, why do the people identifying as the Amigos on this site always think they are right? ”
Because we ar
Furthermore I’ve notised you’ve never had th intellect to chalenge a subject position put , so whinging I suppose is a distant next best
Getting a medal from the current Leader of the free world, a lame duck with nearly 80% of his fellow citizens wanting badly to see the back of him, is surely nothing to skite about. The poms are giving him a bit of a send off on the BBC site.
["And truth of the matter is, a lot of reports in Washington are never read by anybody. To show you how important this one is, I read it, and [Tony Blair] read it.”
On the publication of the Baker-Hamilton Report, Washington DC, 7 December, 2006
“All I can tell you is when the governor calls, I answer his phone.”
San Diego, California, 25 October, 2007
“I’ll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office.”
Washington DC, 12 May, 2008 ]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7809160.stm
Glen, I think you will find that our PM has already received an award or two, including from China.
PM Rudd, that is!
Glen
for a moment there I was going to award you the order of the flipperhead,
but your 528 saved you!
Ron
point of order-the amigo’s are oft between quiff and quim.
Slate has much more for whiling away the dull moments.
http://www.slate.com/id/76886/
Howard is not doing his “legacy” much good staying tied to this nong.
Glen
#514
“Howard stuck by America during its darkest hours after September 11 and supported US foreign policy in the War on Terror”
There is no ‘war’ Glen , there wwas a Bin ladin/alqueada group in Aghanistan that caused 9/11 that THEN was defeatable What Bush did was to detrail that concentration and debstabilise iraq by atttack unleasing not only groups in iraq upset at th satan on arab soil but strenghten ing Ben Ladin/Alqueada
if anything , bush creatd a war on teror & made terorist groups stronger not weaker instead of remaining only in Aghanistan where there was wide World suport for th USA to capture th 9/11 perertators incl arab world …bush’s actons reversed that and th folish Howard followed suit FA blunder unbelievable
Alls i know is with my new LCD tv tomorrow ill be able to watch the 2004 election tape/convert it to DVD in style and pretend Rudd isnt PM lol ahhh how much difference 5 years makes ah well lol!
A swing to the ABC lol well maybe i ought to watch the 2007 election to sober me up…or perhaps reruns of Question Time with Cossie and Howie defending Workchoices lol that is always fun.
Scorpio
“Howard is not doing his “legacy” much good staying tied to this nong.”
If howard was not “tied to that nong ” , what “legacy” would he hav
“On Wednesday, Martino, president of the Vatican’s Council for Justice and Peace, delivered the Vatican’s toughest criticism of Israel since its offensive in the Palestinian-ruled enclave, calling Gaza a “big concentration camp”.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL8409388
I enjoy seeing the bitterness spew forth from Glen. It makes me want to re-live the 2007 federal election again and again and again
Gusface
“Ron point of order…
Your point of order is not even recognised
New LCD tv? Lucky guy. I hope you give your sincere thanks to Mr Rudd.
Are you a pensioner or supporting parent?
Ron @540
You just proved my point :0
Gusface #542
I only did that to demonsrtate you ar always between quiff and quim
If you ar like Harry and cann’t put up intelectual points and instead whinge thats your lot
Now now Ron
go back and slowly reread my post @533.
ps I like harry but biology prevents me from actually being like harry.
Gusface now now gusface don’t now backpedal , but if your qiff and quim is a complement then its all yours patented , and as “biology prevents me from actually being like harry” that is not apparent fom coments
Ron
shakespeare among others first pedalled it
ps Its a worser chinese curse/blessing than “may you live in interesting times”
It’s up to you, how you take it!
Gusface
Shakespere and i hav shared interests including variants of “quiff and quim”
Notwithstanding Harry mad a foolish statemetn that i quoted in #529 and then exposed its foolishness
FACT is you deliberately at your choosing blundered in in 3529 in a matter nothing to do with you …clumsily Now now gusface do not complain retrospectively if as a result i’ve put you in harry’s position arguing eqivididi
in #533
Ron
This time really really slowly read post @533.
And yes you are right and the sun king and lord chancellor amd the infaliible one blah de blah blah
Changing subject
has C-span or whatever its called started broadcasting yet!
Gusface
As you did not re read #529 slowly you faile to understand its absolutes , so your subsequent intrusion in #533 at your discretioon , in a matter between amigos and th foolish Harry with cuteness & now retrospective shakesperian interpretations
( variants of whicjh I was aware of ) is your issue I’m just highliting it
interesting you concluded with “And yes you are right” , well that was th actual point oif #529 if you’s had read it slowly and carefuly
Co incidently th snide hubris coments against amigos from th bleachers almost always come from those whose intelectual arguments hav been previously been exposed as empty , sort of a continuous bitter & feline expecting no retort from th cultered Being uncultered there always will be a retort for mine to snobbery , whether others onlookers ar uncomfortable in silense
And Howards present curfufle with Obama over 5 star residences seems to hav smug overtones Truth is there probabley was a sloppy beaucratic booking error at either th Howard lower beaucratic staff end orr th Obama lower beaucratic staff end , or both , and instead of those staff fixing it quietly or next level u fixing it quietly they made it worse again , then publisised subsequentley as if it was an affront of one to other or vice versa ..probabley nNEITHER knew of double booking till it was too latte anyway , but Media beatup snub …National leaders , including howard and Obama do not think that small , and would n’t hav time to anyway Now it’s a snobbery issue of whose bed is in th most 5 star-ish place They’ll both get good nites sleep in thaere beds anyway
Gusface @ 538
The Vatican:
(a) has a CEO who appears to have lost a year of personal history (at a time when concentration camps really were the go);
(b) had a CEO who did sfa when concentration camps really were the go (at about the same time as (a), actually; and,
(c) has had a bit of form with respect to turning a blind eye (at best) to pogroms, mass expulsions, and fitting the jews for the ‘murder of Jesus’, and so on, and so forth.
So you would think that the Vatican would know what it is talking about when it comes to the use of the term ‘concentration camp’.
Here is a random definition of ‘concentration camp’ gleaned from the web.
‘n.
A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions.
A place or situation characterized by extremely harsh conditions.’
Gaza fits all of this. But it has something more. It has more than 10,000 armed folk who have the capacity to deliver death and destruction beyond the boundaries of Gaza. IMHO, this means that Gaza is not simply a concentration camp.
The Vatican is a sovereign state which is entitled to criticize Israel for its actions.
Given the Vatican’s history in general, its supine (at best) history during the concentration camp rich Holocaust in particular, and the lost year in the personal history of the current CEO, it should take better care in choosing its terminology. Its failure to do so must painful for real concentration camp survivors and their families.
Beyond that, by creating a focus away from what is really happening in Gaza, the Vatican is also helping those who would rather not acknowledge the real evils inherent in the behaviour of Israel and of Hamas.
All-in-all, a curious lack of infallibility on the part of the Vatican.
Gusface in #538 quoted
“On Wednesday, Martino, president of the Vatican’s Council for Justice and Peace, delivered the Vatican’s toughest criticism of Israel since its offensive in the Palestinian-ruled enclave, calling Gaza a “big concentration camp”.
Th Vatican ar completely correct in principal here Th Vatican is respected by th Worlds catholics , and thats th worlds LARGEST Christan religion and 1/6 of world population
Add that to th muslim outrage against israeli occupation , and th minority that support Israels illegal occupation and immoral current invasion , ar becoming rapidly irrelevant
Israeli suporters trying to justify why Israeli occupys arab lands for 42 years ar becoming more foolish looking by th day , and relying on ww2 guilt is well past its use by date for most curent israeli’s , except those that hate arabs , ar native or overseas zealots or most americans still 60 years “guilt converted’
Adelaidians (Adelaiders ?Adelaidents? Adelaiderrans? Adelaiduhs?), well, anyway, corvid munchers might have an interest in the following:
‘In March, South Australia experienced a record heat wave which brought scorching temperatures across the state. Adelaide, South Australia’s capital, experienced its longest running heat wave on record, with 15 consecutive days of maximum temperatures above 35°C (95°F). This broke the previous record of 8 consecutive days which was tied on numerous occasions, most recently in February 2004. Also, Adelaide set a new record as having the longest number of consecutive days exceeding 35°C (95°F) for all Australian state capital cities. The second longest such streak was 10 days, set in February 1988 in the city of Perth. Overall, South Australia had its third warmest March since records began with 2.35°C (4.23°F) above the 1961-1990 average (BoM).
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2008/ann/global.html#trends
BTW, Ron, is there any difference between the Howard and Rudd Government responses to the Middle East? Or is it yet another example of the HowRuddian Convergence?
I’m sure many australians wonder why th Israelis and Palestiniens , despite there mutual dislike , do NOT simply sign a peace agreement endorsed by th UN requiring
1/ th palestiniens promise NOT to attack israeli soil AND
2/ th israelis withdraw from all arab lands as required by unamanous UN 242
3/ th Israelis promise NOT to attack that arab (Palestinien) soil they withdrew from
4/ any breach of th peace deal results in savage UN econamic and military
sanctions for th one who breached it
Well th Palestiniens wuld sign such a peace deel tomorrow and hav been prepared to for at least 15 years
Israel th occupier will NOT sign such a peace deel because
A/ israeli’s publicly wants to annex some of that arab land in defiance of UN
resulutions , and
B/ Israel has publicly said it STILL wants to exercise onerous controls over another Country (th new Palestine State) per its cabinet docs , that wwuld make that allegedly independent new Country REELY a province of and subservent to Israel
Naturaly th Palestiniens will not agree to either A/ or B/ , resulting in israel continuing to illegaly occupy , and th Palestiniens legiimately resisting (despite questons on there methods including suiciders) …and to which then israel responds unproportioately ilegaly and brutualy …and then claims th right to illegaly occupy
This iraeli false circular argument is WHY there has never been peace , and why there never will be….unless Obama (th USA military & econamic Israeli provider forses Israel to accept 1/ to 4/ ….Israel will take no notise of anyone else
.
Anyone is welcome to chalenge 1/ to 4/ ( or with A/nd B/) , everyting else is a “secondary issue” (apart from ‘return’ that needs separate teatment)
BOERWAR , you ar also welcome to As to your “secondary issue” queston of Rudd and Howard , you wuld not even get 2% suport in oz for your wrong claim of similarity of Rudd & Howard CC policys (Israel is th only excepton of similarity but it always has been , its been always a shameful “price” of being a US “close ally”…but th eurpoeans hav a diferent view to th US/oz
So, there is no difference between Howard and Rudd on the ME?
Uh, Ron
Re: mine @ 557, I will withdraw it, not because it isn’t right, but because it is smartarse, and a bit of an insult to your passion on the subject.
I don’t entirely agree with your views on the ME, please see my the second last para of 552. There is rampant evil on both sides. But, also please note, I have previously said that I did not think it moral to take people’s land and then kill them for trying to do something about it.
Ron 556
Sadly I must agree. Even if you compare the requirements of proposed peace settlements over the years, they have consistently shifted in favor of Isreal. Since the end of the Cold War Isreal has overwhelming military superiority over its neighbors, who are no longer supplied by the former SU. Israel is still supported militarily by the US, even though it has a larger army than most of Nato. And it still keeps bringing people in from eastern Europe and Russia every year. So there is a process of creeping annexation of land going on, creating new palestinian refugees all the time. New settlers don’t want peace; they want the army to remain on site, and new settlements in the “occupied” (i.e. annexed/conquered) territory. Consider the options for a jew in Russia or a former Soviet republic – either remain in an economic basketcase where you may be discriminated against (though no worse than any ethnic minority in most cases) or migrate to Israel where you get a higher standard of living and may be given a house by the state.
In the cold war the west turned a blind eye to Israel’s aggression and territorial expansion because of WWII guilt and the fact that it was “our” client state versus Soviet backed enemies. But with the Cold War over, and the last genuine holocaust survivors dying of old age (and safely resettled anyway – there are no Jewish refugees these days) there is no justification for it. Time to end the farce.
Boerewar 554
Last February/March was a shocker here in Adelaide. Not only did the maximums remain above 35 C for the fifteen days, on many of the nights the minimum remained above 30 C. There was no breeze and no relief.
Ron
Just regarding our earlier dicusion about debt, sure enough it seems the Chinese are becmoing more reluctant to loan the US money.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/business/worldbusiness/08yuan.html?em
That is not necessarily aweful for us – if the Chinese keep their money at home to boost their local economy they will still want our iron ore. But its certainly bad for the US hopes of recovery.
Socrates @ 561
Looks like the US is about to get into the ‘Pay Later’ bit of the ‘Fly Now Pay Later’ plan.
To all Hamas supporters out there, Hamas are the ones who wants the killing to continue.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/01/08/2009-01-08_gaza_truce_for_humanitarian_aid_collapse.html
No Fulvio this TV is on me not PM Rudd and my old one is 12 years old it’s about time!
Does anybody think America can become debt free???
And why are the Dems seating Blago’s Senate pick when Blago is corrupt??
It has proven to be a textbook case of ‘magical thinking’ for those Queensland conservatives who tried to convince us last year that the factional brawling and feuding between the Nationals and Liberals would be lesser post merger than their pre merger bloodbaths.
There are however a couple of major differences this year. One is that the National Party won’t get away with just blaming the Liberals this time for their September election failure and secondly, they have fired their big gun of a merger and it has been an unmitigated failure according to all the serious graph’s I have seen over the last quarter of last year so what other stunts have they got left?
Today’s Oz seems to be heading towards recommending a leadership change but it would be difficult to see that one with more fuel being added to the factional warring working too well either. It looks like all they can do is limp on to the September election with their support evaporating as the brawling intensifies. They really are not fit for Opposition let alone government.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24888618-5006786,00.html
What does it matter what Ronan Lee thinks he’ll lose his seat and the Greens hardly get any vote up in QLD anyway and what vote they do get goes to the ALP…
Dovif @563
from the article you linked to.
“The United Nations halted all aid deliveries to the besieged Palestinians, after its staff came under fire from the Israel Defense Forces. The driver of a marked UN truck was killed by tank fire ”
I think the IDF would disagree with your assesment.
Hamas started this Gusface…without them breaking the ceasefire the Israelis wouldnt be taking out UN trucks….
Dovif
Do you blindly pick up EVERY right wing cause as a talking point? If I can admit that NSW Labor are hopelessly incompetent at managaing their economy, can’t you acknowledge that maybe, when the casualty count is running at worse than 700 to 5 against, that the Israeli’s might be in the wrong?
For that matter, why do you assume/imply that anyone criticising Israel is a supporter of Hamas. That is like saying that you had to be either a Stalin supporter or a Hitler supporter in WWII. Thinking adults might prefer to say that both sides were evil, though one was clearly the aggressor.
Glen we could also ask what does it matter what the Tories do as they are on track to lose the September election? But some people who write on political forums are actually interested in politics on various levels. I have seen someone who looks like you and writing under the name of Glen arguing in the past that a merge is a good thing for conservative politics but in the case of Queensland it is a failure.
Dovif, I sincerely doubt there is anyone on this site who is a “Hamas supporter”.
It’s sad when one can’t condemn the actions of one terrorist organisation without being labelled the supporter of another.
Anyway that article is full of inaccuracies – for example, Hamas wasn’t even invited to the peace talks so I’m not sure how they could have rejected then. And every other news site, including American sources like CNN are reporting that Israel broke the 3 hour truce by shelling an aid convoy killing two aid workers. That’s from Ban Ki Moon.
Of course, he must be a Hamas supporter.
#508
Harry,
The Amigos’ creed has always been:
We RIDE, LAUGH, LOVE AND SING
If that is not RIGHT at all times, then why bother living, let alone bloggin, because there is nothing LEFT. There is nothing wRONg with that, especially with the RONettes doing the doo-wap.
btw: are u auditioning to be an Amigo?
Damn that beauty sleep.
Glen
The UN is a NEUTRAL player!
It was delivering aid under an Israeli Supervised 3 hour truce.
What am I missing here?
One merger pehaps, but we are yet to see if it works electorally but a federal merger is a needed…if the Reform Party and the Canadian Alliance can merge in Canada and then win an election after a couple of years as the Tories in Canada then the Liberals and Nationals can merge to become Tories and could repeat that success…
The UN shouldnt be delivering aid, because it is a war zone and accidents like this could happen…
Glen the merger is just a symptom of a superficial quick fix by an opposition too lazy to be effective. You are not going to try to tell me that a merger Federally would be any more a success than the Queensland shambles are you? Federally the Liberal Party thinks it is just a Government in exile waiting for Labor to slip and them to win. That is exactly what Springborg has been waiting for for donkeys years and he will still be waiting at Christmas next year.
Glen, please detail when Hamas actually broke the ceasefire?
I have a reputable Western news outlets claiming Israel broke the ceasefire:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4
The Guardian and CNN must be Hamas supporters.
The second part of your post is disturbing. You’re saying that if Hamas broke the ceasefire (which they didn’t) that gives Israel the right to attack UN aid workers?
So Israel says “Ok we’re declaring this a three hour truce, and we’ve established a corridor explicitly for the purpose of delivering aid and we won’t fire on you” and when they do fire it’s somehow the UN’s fault?
The world’s gone mad. Not only because women, children and aidworkers are being deliberately targeted and killed but because people around the world are defending it.
Another thing Glen, even before the Queensland Liberal National Party began its slide into bitter faction fighting and oblivion post merger all the polls which had them doing well had the rider that they could win with Green preferences.
Now they are in the position of 37% in the last Newspoll and falling, no green preferences and a major wound to the foot from brawling.
Oh yes, I’m sure Aussies want the next aggressive instalment of SerfChoices, with pay cuts and loss of conditions and job security of our kids / grandkids in the workforce (serf-force)
Glen 575!!
All aid agencies who are assisting civilans are permitted and protected under the International Law of War. Glen if a building is clearly marked and you attack that facility without warning then that is a war crime regardless if you did it on purpose or not.
Glen I understand in the heat of battle things will happen but at the same time you as an attacking army need to be mindful in the planning stage that certain buildings belong to certain aid agencies.
Glen, I don’t know where you are going with this crazy line of thinking…
Gus, it’s getting very serious:
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/just-enough-cash-for-dec-salaries-says-satyam/408604/
It looks like it will go under and hundreds in OZ will be affected if not thousands.
I admit up front that I have scant knowledge of this issue but I heard this morning that Australian dealings with this company were in the very early stages and that the “2000 jobs lost” referred to were in fact “potential jobs” rather than actual jobs. Is this so?
GB
Satyam was only in the early stages of expansion here but still has 1700 local staff, mainly in Sydney and Melbourne. Their corporate clients will not be pleased either:
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24890644-462,00.html
Catching up on Pollbludgers I see last night I missed out on calls for the Amigos to be bannished and Glen telling us of his Uncle Howie’s one night stand at Blair House (dirty ole man!) Boy it ain’t safe to go to bed anymore, don’t know what you’re missing =)
By the way , now Obama and the cash strapped USA is going to be up for more expense, having to get the fumigators into Blair House after the “Aussie guest” move out. The last thing the Yanks need now is the Black Death.
Steve,
I wouldn’t believe the latest Queensland Newspoll showing the new look LNP on 37 per cent support. You’ve always opposed this merger in Queensland but I do agree with you against Glen that Federally it will never happen. I can’t imagine the four other state National Party branches giving up there fight for Rural and Regional and Country and Coastal areas. Queensland was different as the National Party was strong in both metropolitan and Regional so it made sense for a merger. Labor is looking tired after almost 11 years ruling Queensland probably due to the rise of One Nation which really was the cause of the Borbidge National Party Governments demise.
Satyam as a service provider or outsourcer has been in Australia since the late 90s. I have had some business dealing with them back in 1998. It was one of the first India IT companies to come to the Australian market.
But only the last few years, it has been more aggressive in pursuing IT projects of their own as principal.
What happened is really shocking for a company that has enjoyed an excellent reputation. Who else can you trust in business?
Paul – metropolitan = “In Australia, Statistical Divisions (SDs) are defined by the Australian Bureau of Statistics as areas under the unifying influence of one or more major towns or cities. Each capital city forms its own Statistical Division, and the population of the SD is the most-often quoted figure for that city’s population. Statistical Districts are defined as non-capital but predominantly urban areas. The statistical divisions that encompass the capital cities are commonly though unofficially called ‘metropolitan areas’ ”
How many seats did the National Party hold in Brisbane?????
You’re probably right there Paul. Seeing it was a major shift in an historical trendline and not just a one off rogue poll, the figures are sure to be much lower now and lower again by the time of the March Newspoll. I like the concept of the ‘new look LNP’ with the Shadow Ministers, Horan born in 1944, Malone 1943, Hobbs 1950 and the young Shadow Minister Menkens born in 1946.
dovif
#563
“To all Hamas supporters out there, Hamas are the ones who wants the killing to continue.”
dovif , for th theoretical purposes ONLY of getting from you and Glen a thoughtful response , I will freely admit to being a Hamas suporter
…..now that i’ve theoreticaly admitted that red herring of name tainting me which i don’t object to …….but which crucuialy avoids facng/addressing th fundamentel issues to stop th total conflict , I wuld like you to thoughtdfuly adress HOW to solve th total I mean total conflct between th Partys …specificaly addressing my #552 points 1/ to 4/ and A/ & B/ (but sugest you also read Socrates #559 concise geo politcal historical vs curent context to those points
If thereafter you feel you ar w ron g , in emphasis , then just say so …seeing i as a Ruddy suporter hav unabigously diagreeed with Rudd without hesitaton on this issue blogging earlier his policy like all oz govt predecssors is a shameful “price” And suggest just just ignore all th uneven handded politcans and MSN and look at cause and efect of th core conflict issues in our posts …and then look at th sugested equitable solution four both th Palestinien & israeli Countrys and there peoples
corecton , my post was #556 NOT #552
Scorpio @534
That link from slate was great.My fave
“And so, in my State of the—my State of the Union—or state—my speech to the nation, whatever you want to call it, speech to the nation—I asked Americans to give 4,000 years—4,000 hours over the next—the rest of your life—of service to America. That’s what I asked—4,000 hours.”
Boerwar
#558 “Uh, Ron
Re: mine @ 557, I will withdraw it, not because it isn’t right, but because it is smartarse, and a bit of an insult to your passion on the subject.”
Boerwar , this may giv you a smile
.
“And so the fact that they purchased the machine meant somebody had to make the machine. And when somebody makes a machine, it means there’s jobs at the machine-making place.” quote 27/5/08
As you can see , th World was in safe hands wwith not only a genius political & kind humanitarien , but also an expert on engineering
Vera
#586
“Catching up on Pollbludgers I see last night I missed out on calls for the Amigos to be bannished and Glen telling us of his Uncle Howie’s one night stand at Blair House (dirty ole man!) Boy it ain’t safe to go to bed anymore, don’t know what you’re missing =) ”
Well Vera if howie has been “missing” out , then getting that Medal of Freedom has given him belated courage…..loaned by Peter th brave Guess if one can not occasionaly “RIDE,LAUGH, LOVE AND SING” ireventantly , you miss out on smiling reely …test no 4 .) or if that failed XXXX
or as “Howie th gentle” said , we will decide who enters this Site , and th manner of there deportation ….incl getting Cossie’s personaly signed biogragphy book
“we will decide who enters this Site , and th manner of there deportation ”
Confirmation of what I have suspected for a while … William and Ron are the same person!
It will be denied by William It will be denied by Ron , and not in th one blog
only in the USA
) for the adult entertainment industry.
Larry Flynt wants a $5 billion bailout (I wont say stimulus package
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/08/2461638.htm
Ron here’s a site that shows you how to do smileys
http://sarahcherim.com/info/#smileys
Love this re: Howards slumber party
Mr Howard’s stay at Blair House was also the subject of an on-air chat between the veteran political columnist Margaret Carlson and MSNBC presenter Keith Olbermann.
“It would have been a small thing for the Bushes to say yes. They still have control over Blair House and they decided to say no,” Ms Carlson said.
Mr Olbermann responded: “There’s one caveat here. Given how unpopular John Howard is in Australia at the moment, it’s possible that he’s coming here to seek political asylum so he might need the whole place.”
“Right, and that no hotel would take him,” Ms Carlson added.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/08/2461544.htm
Vera, back at wherever, no one called for the banishment of the amigos. My point is a simple one, that simply repeating the same line over and over, with cheers from the sidelines, is hardly conducive to debate.
Ron, you can dismiss me if you wish to do so, as a light weight. I have a job which requires my attention, and only have time to catch up on the Pollbludgers intermittently. I also have a life. I attempt to inform myself from a number of disparate sources, about a range of issues, and the Pollbludger is one of them. I often do not have time to formulate a detailed response.
So Johnny’s in Washington! Can finally Johnny afford to take ‘the Jeanette’ to a decent frock shop!!!!! I have SO MANY Transsexual friends who KNOW HOW TO DRESS!!!! Thank God the Howards are not meeting the Obamas because MICHELLE KNOWS How TO Dress!!!!!!
Oh, also, it was undoubtedly a stupid question, I originally posed.
Brenton, I doubt a decent frock shop would help. She wouldn’t go to a decent frock shop.
Harry baby, yes, we are amigos are simply dead men and woman walking.
and i? just try to build a global business
Harry 603, Thankyou for your wise counsel!!!!!
While I’ve got a minute, way back on another thread, Gary Bruce asked why I thought the ETS was going to skew the economy. If you’re around or drop in, Gary, it’s giving money to industries such as coal and aluminium, from the tax payer, that I think is the problem. I mean you’ve got to ask yourself, the gov’t gets Henry to review the tax system and how to reform it, at the same time the proposed ETS is going to embark on a vast churn from tax payers to the big emitters?
Well, Finns. Good on you with the global business. Hope you succeed. My stuff is a bit more local, the sad, the mad and the bad.
Finns
Satyam will I believe open a can of worms regarding IT outsourcing and software spend by both Corp. and Gvt. entities, realistically this is the tip of the iceberg.
Harry,Brenton
I wonder if the howard”s will get to meet the Obama’s,
TQ Harry, yes, it will be in your hand.
From today’s Crikey, (I am not sure if it is accurate):
‘Malcolm Turnbull’s office is not a happy place to work. There have been many recent staff movements out of the office. More are coming. Turnbull is a serial offender — he regularly implodes and abuses people.’
*grins* A RuddBull Convergence?
HSO
Are you sure you don’t work on a Burns Unit? Those are the three categories we place our patients into. The ones who don’t fit into one before their burn always fit into one after.
The Howards may meet the Obamas if Barak turns up at Blair House unannounced on the morning of the medal ceremony. (Having drained a bottle of Southern Comfort and plucked a billiard cue off the wall at the Hay-Adams. Michelle will be on his shoulder holding a lame duck.)
Gus, this Satyam stuff is going to be huge.
The CFO is reported to have tried to commit suicide.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_Business/Satyam_CFO_Srinivas_Vadlamani_attempts_suicide_Sources/articleshow/3955750.cms
Actually, there is another FRAUD that Raju was trying to commit which has not been widely reported. There was deal that he was trying to get Satyam to buy two companies that his sons owned. The purchase price was almost identical to the amount that he has fudged. The deal was rejected by Satyam shareholders and the Board.
Because the price was inflated and the appearance of nepotism. What they are saying now is that the deal was a way for Raju to hide the non existent cash in the bank. So if the sales has gone through, there will be no actual money pass from Satyam to his son companies, as it will be in the family and no one will know. But it will allow Raju to claim that the “cash” has been used to buy his son companies.
Finns
perhaps we should call The GFC the Global Fraud Case(s)
also i feel it will be how history judges Howard/Bush/Blair- FRAUDS
Boerwar 610, Oh those poor sensitive Liberal staffers!!!!! I have been abused most of my 52 years!!!!! They need to harden up for what ever those conservatives Do?????
There also stories from “Disgruntled Labor Staffers” which also get trotted out saying the same thing. If Staffers of ALL Political Parties can’t hack the argy-bargy of working for a pollie, then really they should be looking for a job somewhere else.
Gus, from Crikey, subs required. I was right, Satyam does have over 1000 employees in OZ.
Thanks HSO. I’m still not sure why those two actions are contradictory, if that’s your point, or how that skews the system. A review may mean a different way of taxing or taxing different people to a greater or lesser extent, not necessarily an overall reduction in the tax take. The review maybe taking the ETS into account.
Although in its purest form the ETS should give nothing to anyone, I’m not so sure giving no compensation is the way to go politically. Nor am I sure of the effects it would have on the economy. I suspect not positive.
New thread.