This week’s Essential Research survey has Labor’s lead at 60-40, up from 59-41 last week. Also featured are interesting findings on development of nuclear power plants for electricity generation (43 per cent support, 35 per cent oppose) and whether Australia has an obligation to dispose of nuclear waste from countries it exports uranium to (26 per cent agree, 53 per cent disagree), along with perceptions of the Australian-US relationship and a quiz question on Australia Day (which makes me wonder how many answered without recourse to Google). Other news:
• The South Australian Liberals have suffered an embarrassing defeat at the hands of independent Geoff Brock in the Frome by-election following Saturday’s distribution of preferences. Crikey subscribers can read my post-mortem here, and a still lively discussion is raging on my live coverage post. The Advertiser reports that Brock’s success might give other potential independent candidates ideas, including “ALP stalwarts such as Rod Sawford and Murray Delaine”, who were respectively Labor members for the federal seat of Port Adelaide and the state seat of Cheltenham. Liberal leader Martin Hamilton-Smith says he is “ready to make deals with any independent candidate who ran next year in safe Labor seats such as Port Adelaide, Croydon, Lee and Colton”.
• Speculation about an early Queensland election continues to stop and start. Mark Bahnisch of Larvatus Prodeo says the Courier-Mail has damaged its credibility with its repeated wolf-crying on the subject, while The Australian’s D. D. McNicoll contends that “the whisper in Queensland political circles is Premier Anna Bligh will call the state election on February 28, a date that ensures bumper superannuation payouts for all the surviving members of the ALP’s ‘Class of 2001′ who were never expected to serve more than one term in parliament.” “Former Howard government senior adviser” David Moore surveys the landscape in The Australian.
• The NSW Nationals’ plans to select a candidate in a winnable seat for the 2011 state election by holding an open primary has caught the attention of blogger Tim Andrews, who is “unsure why this proposal hasn’t received more attention, as it has the potential to revolutionise Australian politics”. Ben Raue at The Tally Room reckons the idea is “at least a good gimmick”. The Nationals’ briefing paper on the subject can be read here.
• Western Australia’s daylight saving referendum will be held on May 16. Daylight saving was previously voted down in 1975 (53.66 per cent against), 1984 (54.35 per cent) and 1992 (53.14 per cent).
519 Comments
Yawn, nothing new. Rudd Labor still outrageously popular.
now Bob stop being norty, you know it’s the narrowing, newspoll said so, the honymoon is over etc etc.
MHS.{whats with these hyphenated names?} is whistling to the wind on independants following his drum beat, any independant capable enough to win a seat certainly wouldnt hitch his wagon onto the Sth.Aust. liberals.
i must admit i’m surprised about the figures in the for/anti nuclear vote, everyone i’ve spoken to about it has been a NIMBY.
the speculation about when Bligh is going to call the election is a bit of a head spin, it’s a little like UFO’s first you see it and then you dont.
an open primary’s a bit different, i think quite a few on both sides of politics will be watching that with interest.
One more poll like this and I’m going to roll Turnbull for the leadership.
Bull butter
Essential Research arent credible…
Give me Newspoll or Galaxy anyday they know what they’re on about.
I would have thought that “More than half of all Aussie’s don’t know what Australia Day is” would be a pretty juicy news headline for our brilliant media.
Then again, I guess it doesn’t play into the “If you don’t like the 26th you’re a Marxist” narrative.
Has this been mentioned?
http://www.theage.com.au/national/factionhit-alp-faces-extinction-20090125-7pgl.html?page=1
Exactly. Where did all those nuclear power plant supporters come from? 43%-35% in favour. And Labor voters were split 50-50. That’s what happens when you use Roxby Downs as your polling sample.
Diogs,
The killer question would be “Do you support a nucelar power plant and or a nuclear waste disposal centre on that vacant land just up the road from where you live?”
Dio most people arent anti nuclear and would support it…it’s a shame Rudd is a gutless wonder and will never do anything about it.
GG they wouldnt put Nuclear Power plants so close to residential areas …how many people up the road to coal fired power stations hardly any. That is spurious question u r asking there.
The killer question is…
As nuclear power would significantly reduce Australia’s carbon emissions would you be in favour of its use in Australia to battle climate change?
Hang on, Howard was in power for 11 years, how come he didn’t do anything about it? And how come it’s in the Liberal Party platform?
Glen,
I am sure that you occaissionally follow day to day affairs but the “popularity” track record of new controversial developments isn’t good.
Recent examples include the Tasmanian mill, the dredging of Port Phillip Bay, the Desaliantion Plant at Kilcunda, the Goulburn Pipeline, drug needle exchange facilities etc.
The bi-election in SA demonstrates that voters aren’t much interested in the big picture. Just how it affects them.
I am sure your attempt at logic will be more than trumped by a school yard full of kids painted in ghoulish green waving light sticks around.
From the link by Oz at #6.
This caught my attention:
“Liberals …… president David Kemp warned that Liberal membership in Victoria had slumped to fewer than 14,000 …….. and that more than a quarter of the members were over 75″
This would be a moronic question because nuclear waste can only be stored in geologically stable areas. Nuclear reactors need to be built near cheap supply of water, which again limits where they can be built. Asking a question that asserts these things could be built anywhere would be push polling.
I think it is great that 43% support nuclear power WITHOUT tying the issue to climate change. This demonstrates how much thinking has progressed on this issue in just a decade.
Oz he took it to 2007 but since he got savaged by the media and the flat earthers in the ALP on nuclear energy ie Gillard they didnt put it front and centre. If you’ll remember they pushed it hard in 2005-6…
Fredex that is old news…
2007? Bit late isn’t it? He had 11 and a half years to do something.
And what, you’re blaming the media and Labor for the Liberals not taking action? But you’ll happily savage Rudd when he does the same as a gutless wonder?
What a hypocrite.
Howard wasnt gutless he pushed it into the public arena in 2005/6 and got savaged so no wonder he backed off…but had we won in 2007 ill be he would have gone even further with it bob1234…
Rudd is gutless because he allows uranium mining but is against nuclear power despite every climate change scientist saying you cant have a solution to it without nuclear…
I thought the myth was that Howard had a backbone and stood up for what he believed in, no matter what?
Guess nuclear power blows that myth away then.
And 2005/6? That’s a decade after he came to power. Nuclear power was around for a long time before Howard came to power.
Bit late.
#11
*Not in the platform.
What do you think the percentage support would be for solar thermal plants, for example?
Why are we acting like the only potential future power source is nuclear and it needs to be polled all the time.
actually wasnt there a fuss about Howard having secret meetings with a couple of lib donators and signing a deal with them to give them exclusive rights to build reactors when nuclear power went ahead? and didnt those same men register a nuclear company right after those meetings? hmmm was Howard going to go over the heads of his cabinet and voters and illegally bypass the tender process?
On the nuclear issue the problem is that a lot of public opinion is formed in a vacuum.
We often see the claim that apart from Windscale, 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl modern nuclear facilities are ’safe’. Modern plants are better and safer, so it is said.
Yet how many people are aware that in the past few years nuclear plants have been forced to close down in France, Japan and Sweden because of varying problems causing releases of toxic materials? In the Swedish case there was toxic emissions for 3 years before they were detected.
We were told that nuke power would be ‘clean, green and cheap’ yet none of those PR claims stand up to scrutiny.
Roxby is SAs largest producer of carbon and that is before it even starts to be converted to electrical power.
How many South Australians and Australians are aware of that?
Roxby also requires massive quantities of water for its mine production, up to 40,000,000,000 litres per year in the near future.
And thats in the “driest state in the driest continent”.
Is that common knowledge?
Its also interesting to note that in the last federal election both the Greens and the ALP recorded significant swings in their favour. The Greens nearly doubled the Nationals vote and had a swing of 1.3% and the ALP had a swing of 6.99%.
For those of you who have lived in a ‘company town’ the significance of those numbers should resonate.
Only a few years ago [May 2005] Newspoll recorded that 65% of Australians wanted no uranium mining and 51% were against nuclear power, only 38% supported such.
There has been a strong pro-nuclear push since then, its a pity the media didn’t present a more balanced view.
i dont believe EVERY climate change scientist is for nuclear reactors, in fact i’ve read of quite a few who say the opposite, that the waste would be impossible to get rid of and it would take years to build one and it’s working life would only be about 30 years, theres also the opinion with our population it wouldnt be viable.
Love the way Glen says Howard wasn’t guttless and then says he got savaged and backed off.
Quitting when the going gets tough is a perfect example of being a guttless coward!
And the climate change debate should not be phrased in terms of “Coal or nuclear!” when there are cheaper, cleaner, more stable, more plentiful, more sustainable and quicker to get off the ground technologies.
The hell is going on with Labor.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24967839-5013945,00.html
Factional turmoil in Victoria, factional turmoil in NSW…
Give the Commonwealth to Labor and give the States to the Greens, easy done.
Janet and Australian Papers ‘journalism’
Dyno’s praise of Janet got me to read Janet for first time othr day , and Dyno was right her article critisising th liberal progressive US media for being fawning uncriticl of Obama did hav great substanse ,too many free rides for some politcans , although did say Janet doesn’t always (kind there with ‘always’ ) follow her own rules as well
Now its diog’s fault mentionig a Janet article today , so read it ….geez this is Janet quote of quotes
“would have been better served had he (Mick Dodson) refused to accept the Australian of the Year title given on a date he OPPOSES”
So now I’ve got to fight th “some left” who oppose th 26th Jan date AND th “conservative right” who (wrongley) claim Dodson opposes th 26th Jan date
Well eureka flags they ar both wrong wrong Mick Dodson said it unedited last nite face to face with us with no ‘Janet’s” in between quote ‘He does not hav a problam with th 26th Jan date Mickdodson said quote ‘some indigenous people and some white people do but I do not” Anothr time in interview says quote” I’m not fussed”
So Janet of oz… like a truth wizard of oz so to speak , your article was false to say he opposes ,26th Jan date , as ar ‘some left’ opposing 26th Jan date who do not see as I do and as does Mick Dodson it happened , what we got now started from there so why hell wuldn’t you celebarate where we got to (but remember past injustices but that’s what we’re trying to fix like apology & reconcile ala) And to quote my mate Mick doson , its also a time of ‘reflecton , of whats gone before and what should be tomorrow
Also janet’s shocker Story headine: “Dodson proves an ungracious winner” I said other nite ONLY reason before Mick Dodson interview , that Mick Dodson was ‘anxous about accepetanse of award was not becaue he didn’t value 26th Jan (since proved from his own TV mouth words he does value it , but CAUSE those who oppose reconcilaton wuld try to tarnish it like Mansell nutters accusing him as white collaborator , and assumed also conservative right like th Janet wuld try to taint his worthy Award Well b both hav done so , that’s why he was ‘anxous’ , to stifle anti recon opposition
In end Mick dodson decided to as he indicated proudly accept it , and so he’s saying st.ff small minds undermining oz unity
And as Janet’s new found Mentor …education: Mick Dodson also wants to accommodate those indigenous & whites that do oppose 26th Jan date by a discussion seeing quote ‘he has NO problam with this date’
Mick Dodson is looking at future unity , not disunity Will send hims plan of ‘leaves’ type ceremony for every 26th Jan to help accommodate reluctants to make inclusive , so leaving still unsatisfied Mansell nutters and conservative right anti recon groups on a limb byselves It ‘leaves’ type ceremony could also be included in our later hoped for Republic Day celebratd on day of our aussie final free show we ar “one just ourselves”…Aussies only , and all …black white & multicultaral , and not “one only” of Queens subjects”
Nuclear power
May 05; for = 38%, against = 51%, 11%=undecided
Jan 09; for = 43%, against =35%, 22%=undecided
The pro-nuclear lobby is winning. Is it just Climate Change or is something else going on?
Oz, {27} this is the Australian your quoting here, since when has the Australian hacks ever spoilt a good stirring story with the truth, did you read Christian Kerr’s piece of garbage, he’s trying to infer Obama wont ring Rudd because of the Bush phone beatup.
Dio, it all depends how the question is framed, i get a questionaire from Essential Research every 6-10 weeks or so, some of the questions can get a bit off if you dont watch it, it’s done on line, firstly they ask what party your voting or leaning toward which is fairly straight forward and then they go off on other stuff.
Touche, Judith Barnes!
Grain of salt taken.
Diogenes, two polls, from different sources, over 4 years. Not enough to determine a trend in my opinion.
Well said Ron, you have a great heart for all Australians and I admire that in a person. Shame you can’t find a small part of that heart for Obama and give him some leeway to see what type of President he will end up being.
Oz and Judith
True. I’ll have a look for serial polls from the same organisation.
Ron
I’m pleased that I’ve contributed to broadening your education to those wonderful, incisive and brilliantly written article by Janet A.
Unsurprisingly, the Oz is onto the nuclear poll like a seagull onto a hot chip.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24970633-12377,00.html
I see no implication in the question that is the only future power source. However, unlike many others, it is one that a) can provide base load power with pre-existing technologies b) it is currently banned by an act of federal parliament c) the complete nuclear cycle produces less green house gases than all fossil fuel based electricity generation methods AND some renewable forms, such as currently existing photovoltaic technologies.
For those reasons alone it is not surprising that market research will be done on it from time to time.
Diog,
“Also, 57% did not support nuclear power or had no opinion. That was more than those who supported nuclear power – about 3 out of 7.”.
Same data, different emphasis.
Possums got a breakdown:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/01/27/essential-report-nuke-edition/
Strange the OO didn’t go with this bit from ER.
Only 29% of those polled [57% of COALition supporters which would largely account for that 29%] thought the Howard/Bush relationship was of benefit to Australia.
Yet 62% [even 59% of COALition supporters] thought the Rudd/Obama relationship will be of benefit to Australia.
Sort of flies against Judith’s report at #30 about what Kerr is infering.
Maybe not so strange.
Western Australia’s daylight saving referendum will be held on May 16.
Diog,
I’m equally pleased that I’ve contributed to broadening your education to those wonderful, incisive and brilliantly personal attribute that prepares to admit , in the face of total humiliation, “I am wRONg”.
Why not? I think it is significant. I vaguely recall a poll done a few years ago that had opposition to nuclear power clearly in front. Now it is not so clear, but sure 22% of undecideds is still significant.
Um, most coal-fired power stations are on the edge of metropolitan centres (Hunter, Latrobe Valley) because longer transmission lines waste more energy. The same would apply for nuclear power.
Opposition to Nuclear Energy will continue to wane in the coming years…less people remember Chernobyl and more and more people are worried about climate change and are seeing Nuclear as an option to combat this not to mention help with the increased demands of energy that we face in Australia.
Most people know nothing about the technology and more people ought to be taught about it in a fair and balanced manner. If that were to take place i would think those in favour of Nuclear Power would be in the 60s….
we’re water starved here and nuclear reactors need massive amounts of water, we’re already going to alter the balance of the seas around us with desalination plants, so now are we going to make the our oceans radio active?
Glen, noticed you conveniently left. Here’s a refresher:
—
I thought the myth was that Howard had a backbone and stood up for what he believed in, no matter what?
Guess nuclear power blows that myth away then.
—
And 2005/6? That’s a decade after he came to power. Nuclear power was around for a long time before Howard came to power.
Bit late.
any early tip William?
They don’t use anymore than large coal fired power stations. Liquid metal cooled nuclear reactors use less water.
The cooling water is not part of the radioactive loop, so the answer is no.
Well he was in his desperation phase so he tried anything. In fact, his nuclear power suggestion at that stage demonstrates how desperate he was. He was never going to turn things around with an issue that devise. The fact it was a good idea is beside the point.
i take it your for nuclear power ShowsOn?
I already said there’s no point framing the debate as coal vs. nuclear, so why are we doing it?
Nuclear waste is dumped in the ocean.
Possum should be doing this, not me. This is going to look crappy and amateurish. Still, I suppose that’s appropriate.
I’ve excluded leading questions which link nuclear power to climate change and pollution reduction. This has left me with these two questions, which I think are equivalent.
1. “Do you support or oppose Australia developing nuclear power plants for the generation of electricity?”
2. “Are you personally in favour or against nuclear power stations being built in Australia?”
I’ll post the opinion polls chronologically, broken down as in favour/against/undecided.
Gallup 79 34/56/10
Newspoll 5/06 38/51/11
Newspoll 12/06 35/50/15
Gallup ‘07 41/53/10
Newspoll 4/07 36/46/18
ER 1/09 43/35/22
Using the highly scientific “eyeball test”, I’m calling there as a significant trend of the anti-nuclear power group into being undecided. I’d say there has been no significant change in the proportion who are pro-nuclear.
Possum, of course, can correct me if you want to get all scientific about it.
BTW you would not believe how widely that Essential Research opinion poll on nuclear power has been reported. I’ve counted fifteen different news sources. I think this debate is going to hot up considerably. And the 50/50 attitude of Labor supporters leaves the probability of a “wedge” by Turnbull.
Both Turnbull and Rudd would have to extremely thick to base policy on an Essential poll.
I prefer it to coal, oil and gas. Maybe “clean coal” will be better in the future, but currently it is only an experimental technology, whereas we know that nuclear works, and doesn’t emit CO2 at the point of electricity generation.
Also, if you take into account the energy required in the manufacture of current technology photovoltaic cells, nuclear power emits less carbon over the entire fuel cycle (mining, refinement, enrichment, production)
Why isn’t there a point?
Incorrect.
I have no objection to nuclear power – but a nuclear power station will NEVER be built in Australia.
1. A Labor Federal or State Govt will never approve one, so the political cycle needs to co-incide, with Conservative Govts at both levels. That has only happened rarely in the past 20 years and is also unlike in the next decade.
2. Even if number 1 does occur it will become like the second airport for Sydney, local action groups will revolt and either the Federal or State Govt will cave in on any suggested site. No Govt will lose seats for private industry.
3. What would we do with all the coal.
Just to be clear, some low level nuclear waste, like from medical isotopes is dumped at sea. But the medium and high level waste from nuclear reactors can not be dumped at sea.
Because when talking about future ways of generating power, we aren’t faced with “coal or nuclear”. That’s why.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6058302.stm
i guess when it all comes down to the nitty gritty i’m NIMBY, by the time we’d have it up and running here it’ll be obsolete, they’ll have found other better means of CC.
High-level waste has been dumped in the ocean, the London Agreement bans it for another 20 years, but not all nuclear nations are signatories to the Agreement, such as India.
It’s already obsolete.
i look at how far computors have come in a very short time, from a huge contraption to a pc, mobile phones from a big unwieldy two hand machine to one you can barely see, gosh i remember the ice carts pre fridges and no telly, with all of the scientific minds now concentrating on CC in twent years if not before nuclear reactors will belong with the ice carts.
if you’d described DNA and stem cell a few years ago you would have been treated as an idiot, with the need we somehow find the cure.
No, it is obvious we will reduce our reliance on coal at some point if so called clean technologies don’t work, and it is highly likely that we will be using nuclear fusion in 30 or 40 years. We need something in the short and medium term.
1) I don’t suggest we develop a fleet of nuclear submarines 2) I don’t suggest that we dump waste at sea.
Nuclear power isn’t obsolete. The U.S. is about to invest in another 30 or so reactors over the next decade. There are new reactors designs being produced every year.
And for the fourth time, there are other options besides nuclear.
And I bet you $1 million fusion won’t exist in “30-40 years”.
Given the ANSTO’s old HiFAR reactor at Lucas Heights will cost $53 million to decommission (Senate Estimates) and the new OPAL reactor has lost $22 million due to faulty fuel rod design (no warranty by the manufacturers – Julie Bishop approved the contract).
I guess out history with Nuclear Reactors is a bit sad.
theres too many good scientific minds working on the problem for them not to find a solution, it’s no good closing ones mind to it being only coal v nuclear power, thats only putting a fence around oneself, i’ve seen far too many changes in my lifetime —-it will happen!
What are they? Do they supply base load power at night time?
LOL! I bet you we won’t have clean coal working in 20 or 30 years.
Well base load power in Australia is produced by either coal or gas. We need a technology that can replace that.
well ShowsOn, i believe we’ll find a technology to do just that, some of the world’s best minds are working on it, i tried to point out in my previous blogs that stuff we take for granted now would have been considered miracles a few years ago, if those few years ago someone had told me i’d be sitting in front of a screen chatting with you now, or i could speak to pals overseas face to face via webcam, well to be honest i’d have called for a doctor, technology is going at a gallup, you’ll see whats new now will be outdated in two years time.
Anyone intending to build nuclear power plants in Australia will not get my vote.
I will not be associated with increasing childrens risks of getting Luekemia.
“CHILD LEUKEMIA DEATH RATES RISING NEAR U.S. NUCLEAR PLANTS”
http://www.precaution.org/lib/08/prn_leukemias_rising_near_nukes.081111.htm
ShowsOn
There are a few ways of converting solar and wind power into baseload power, although they lose about 15% through inefficiency.
There is hydroelectric power from power stored through pumping water uphill. There is also a way of storing energy thermochemically using a reversible ammonia reaction.
Townsville would be an excellent place for a nuclear power station. It has existing infrastructure and an almost limitless water supply (Burdekin dam). They could drill down into Castle Hill, which is very stable, and store the waste there. If it starts to glow, it would just be another tourist attraction. And the army base may have some use for any ‘extra’ enriched material. I am sure the local member Peter Lindsay would be in favour, he has spoken for nuclear power before.
Gaffhook how many of those reactors are IV generation???
IV generation reactors are as safe as houses.
Our demand for energy is increasing and either we continue with dirty coal or we look to Nuclear for our base load energy requirements…
Gee Glen, have I really rocked your faith in Howard that much that after two attempts, you have nothing to reply with?
I’ve finally defeated Howard in Glen’s psyche. I thought this day would never come.
a few short years ago i’d never heard of DNA, today it’s very important to me, i remember reading about the first time it was used in a village in England, never thinking one day it could be refined to use with the tiniest trace of human fluid years old.
This is what David Suzuki thinks of Nuclear Power.
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/Energy/Nuclear.asp
It also opens you up to a terrorist attack.
I bet no one would want a nuclear power plant near them.
Bob i dont understand your point.
First you say Howard was a coward for not introducing Nuclear Power.
Let’s look at the facts…
Howard brought about a far reaching report on Nuclear Power comissioned in 2005 to be written by Ziggy, he supported it’s findings and pushed for Nuclear Power to be brought to public debate. He suffered politically by standing by it up to the Election and even through it. Bob you’ll note that Labor were still banging on about Howard and Nuclear Power plants during the campaign.
I hardly think you can say Howard did nothing. He was the first PM since Gorton who supported Nuclear Energy for Australia and presumably still does so even though he is out of office.
Bob you arent capable of deating Howard in my psyche…sorry to put it bluntly but there you go.
A hypothetical question to the Greenies (which sort of includes me)
Would it have been better to have;
1. Rudd’s 5% CO2 ETS reduction by 2020
2. A 15% CO2 reduction by 2020 with a Gen 4 nuclear power station outside each capital city
I don’t believe Oz needs nuclear (we’re perfectly placed for every type of renewable energy) but it’s better than doing next to nothing.
Clean Coal is a pipe dream, we’d be better off with Nuclear Power and we’d be able to cut our emissions by alot without risking jobs or the economy.
Glen:
I thought the myth was that Howard had a backbone and stood up for what he believed in, no matter what?
Guess nuclear power blows that myth away then.
—
And 2005/6? That’s a decade after he came to power. Nuclear power was around for a long time before Howard came to power.
Bit late.
Yes William, will you please give us a tip for the daylight wasteing referendum?
I hope it gets defeated again, because if it gets up over there it will only encourage the Daylight Saving Party here in QLD, and the Courier Mail, which never misses an opportunity to give the idiotic idea a free plug. (Idiotic because while it is probably quite good in a temporate climate, it is no good for a tropical one).
The Daylight Saving Party is another uncertain factor in the QLD state election which Anna Bligh is sure to call last week… this week… next week, at the latest, according to the very persistent rumours repeatedly reported in the same Courier Mail. The pertinent point is how many votes will they actually get, where are they likely to come from, and how many of them will exhaust?
Provided that they come fairly evenly from LNP and Labor voters, they should make it harder for the LNP to win government. It will be interesting to see if SEQ LNP candidates break rank from the LNP position and state that they are in favour of daylight saving, in the hope of stitching up a preferece reccomendation.
Glen
What does it matter what year they were born. Google “leukemia in children near nuclear reactors”
Read heaps of them and tell me it’s a good thing.
One site says Germany will be shutting all their sites down by 2020’s.
That would be on par for us. When everyone stops using things we start using them.
Dieldrin,245T, etc etc.
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=33273
I was talking to a farmer from Crookwell (NSW) the other day. There are several wind farms in that general area, and many more approved or in the approval process for construction. He stated that the opposition to them from NIMBYs, mostly johnny come lately NIMBYs, is ferocious, personal and vindictive. Many farmers who are in favour of them have become anti purely on the basis of the personal clashes that they engender.
If a technology as envoironmentally friendly as wind power can cause such disruption in a basically conservative, make no fuss community like Crookwell, please nominate a community that will accept a nuclear facility with equanamity. It is easy to be pro nuclear when the idea is a distant cloud on the horizon, its when the hulking building looms closer that the problems will commence.
There will be no nuclear reactor in Australia for the same reasonSydney has no second airport, the politics of NIMBYism!
Diogenes where do store the waste and what about the cost?
You are believing obviously that human beings never make mistakes? What if a massive mistake occurred? What if a wild storm suddenly hit a plant? Or if a plane crashed into one? Yes they have not happened but what if… the consequences would be absoultely horrific?
Put simply we should look at Geo Thermal, Wind and Solar and the reason we are not is because of political will. We should look at cutting back on using energy. Greed is out of control in this country and it is time we all cut. One only has to look at amount of waste each of us chucks out and the amount of stupid gadgets we buy and never use.
Bob1234 you obviously dont consider the political realities…try introducing Nuclear Power in your first term and see if you get a second God you can be way off the mark Bob…
His 4th term was the perfect time to push it especially with Labor down and on the ropes…
Nuclear Power could have been with us since Gorton but the Jervis Bay Reactor never happened so we’ve not had it since the 1970s…but the mere fact that Howard did raise it and push for it and was the first PM to do so since the 1970s was a testament to his support for Nuclear…
Nuff said!
This doesn’t make sense. The efficiency would be more like 50% because you’d only get back the same amount of energy spent pumping it up a hill. So for every 1 unit of energy you create, you only get to distribute 1/2.
Oh OK, so lets just keep burning coal. Let’s pretend the problem doesn’t exist.
And having coal power stations doesn’t? Or tall buildings? Or buildings that house government bureaucracies.
Gaffhook wait till the CDU/CSU and the FDP win the 2009 Election they wont have to rely on the SPD for power…Merkel has delayed the decommissioning of the nuclear power plants and once her party and their centre-right allies win i suspect they’ll like Italy build new Nuclear Power plants…
I kind of agree with Bob. If you REALLY know it is the right thing, you should start talking about it ASAP. Then if it takes 2 or 3 terms to actually turn into legislation, so be it.
I think it would be a great thing for Rudd to do. It would certainly endear him to CFMEU and AWU members, who are scared about a decline in coal mining.
Howard was taking the easy option with nuclear power, and just wanted to help his big business mates.
Can someone tell me why we would prefer to cause greater problems to the environment we can source alternatives which have no effect.
Doh! It would be even worse, because no pump is 100% efficient, and some of the water would disappear due to evaporation.
ok, I hereby allow Rudd to push it in his fourth term!
I really don’t know about daylight saving – I think maybe it just might get up because a smaller proportion of the electorate has children these days and there are more former eastern staters than there used to be. On the other hand, maybe an older population profile works against it, assuming there is one. I personally voted in favour in 1992, but will vote against this time.
I think Michael is right, NIMBYism will not allow nuclear power in this country until we get a LOT more desperate for energy than we are now.
Shows on – A nuclear power plant can kill numerous people over a wide area- perhaps thousands and leave many with a lasting legacy and eventual death, an attack upon a building kills a few people.
So the cost being very expensive obviously means we pay hugh bills for our power supply.
Where does the waste go?
Nuclear is not an option for Australia when we have significant sunlight and wind..
It is just stupid.
We could build solar plants and export our power overseas.
I wish there was a referendum in S.A. so that we could join Eastern time. Being in a half hour time zone is pointless.
hugh = huge
ShowsOn
It’s somewhere in here. I forget where. The article it links to is interesting to download.
The Base-load Electricity Fallacy
http://www.foe.org.au/resources/chain-reaction/editions/100/the-base-load-electricity-fallacy
Worried about it causing your curtains to fade? Stuffing up the chooks?
To be honest having lived in Cairns for a few years I couldn’t imagine daylight saving there, so God knows how those in Broome etc handle it.
Grog,
For some reason daylight saving also makes it harder to milk the cows.
I’m only a humble suburbanite, I have no idea why …
So can a coal power plant. I don’t consider this a legitimate argument, it is based on a misunderstanding of how nuclear power plants work. They aren’t nuclear bombs.
You mean like the respiratory illnesses associated with living near a coal power station? Or a smelter? Or a major airport?
If you account for carbon pollution, power from a nuclear reactor is cheaper than power from a coal power station.
Solar power doesn’t work at night, wind power isn’t base load unless you install massive wind farms. But this is very expensive to do.
We already do as aluminum.
Because cows want to be milked based on their own sense of time, not based on human clock time. So it means farmers are forced to wake up an hour earlier. Say 4 AM instead of 5 AM.
Ah, except that ShowsOn daylight saving would mean you milk them at 6am instead of 5am.
99 – So our first nuclear power plant should be in – where do you live again ShowsOn, oh anyway right next to you. You ok with that?
Showson @ 100
Are you making this up?
GB,
That post exemplifies why we will never have nuclear power unless things get pretty desperate.
Whether we ought to have it is a different question entirely.
Solar thermal and hydro are currently providing baseload power, at night time, around the world. Geothermal has the potential.
I’m with you there.
ShowsOn
Here it is. It’s called “pumped-storage hydroelectricity” and it’s 70-85% efficient. Evidently we already have four in Australia. The Snowy Mountains Scheme has a big one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
101 dyno, that would be better for the farmers. So what’s their beef, so to speak?
“So what’s their beef, so to speak?”
Gary, my point exactly.
104 dyno – I agree.
Thank you, that was an interesting article. I think this is the key line:
My question is simple. Where do we get the somewhat less than half of our electricity from? I hope that it isn’t coal. If it is nuclear, then we would be a world leader in 2040 of cutting greenhouse gases.
Glen you really have blinkers on, i never before realised how badly, as far as your concerned if it was Howard’s idiology then it’s your holy grail, i’m not even going to bother any more, you wont even attempt to look at all sides of the problem, like Howard it’s your way or the highway, no offence meant but this is a dead end street.
You see the NIMBY attitude all of the time. Just propose a pipeline or a desal plant anywhere you like in Victoria and see what happens. Even a dam. Any infrastructure. Not one project goes unopposed and the main complaint is “it shouldn’t go here”.
In some particularly windy areas south of Adelaide people have been protesting the installation of wind farms! The reason – it spoils their view of the land.
Yes I understand the concept. You pump water up a hill store it, then let it flow down to produce electricity when you need it. I was simply pointing out that this means your efficiency can’t be anymore than 50% assuming 100% efficient pumps (which is impossible). This is basic physics, you can’t create or destroy energy, you can only convert it to different forms. Electrical to gravitational, then gravitational back to electrical.
yep – maybe there should be a choice eg – nuclear reactor or wind farm?
because when it is nuclear reactor or nothing; or wind farm or nothing, people always go for nothing.
exactly what I was thinking about ShowsOn
Ahh Glen, foot in mouth again, thanks for your pearls of wisdom.
“Kick em when they’re down on the ground” – spoken like a true Howard fan.
No guts, no backbone.
ShowsOn
It’s either coal, gas or nuclear. There isn’t anything else. The Ruddster is betting heavily on “clean coal” for the obvious reason that it doesn’t upset anyone. I’m not as pessimistic about it as you. They already pump/store gases underground when they mine oil to get as much out as possible.
well GB a NIMBY i might be but i certainly dont want one near me, i dont really care about myself, my day is done but i’ve family and grandies all in the area, i’m a CC believer and i do everything i can to cut down water and energy use, i’ve been using green shopping bags since they first come out and if anyone can think of anything else i’ll give it a go –all except nuclear reactors.
I agree. And I think nuclear is best out of those three, with gas a close second. The easiest way to stop CO2 emissions from coal is to leave it in the ground. Other methods are technically complex, and will be very expensive.
Metro Adelaide already gets its electricity from gas. But in summer we often run out and have to buy it from inter-state. The previous government built the lowest tech coal power station possible to supply mines with power. They obviously couldn’t care less about the environmental problems associate with coal.
Shows on and Diogenes labor supporters who have told to soften the electorate about nuclear power…
What of the waste?
Obviously did not read David Suzuki’s article about cost.
So what we do is we go from the respirtory diseases of coal to the problems of nuclear power hence Chernobynel.
How about reducing the amount of energy we use.
Finally how long will it take before a nuclear plant is built, and who will pay for it?
Nuclear power plant may take years to build and yes so do solar plants…
And this argument about night time use, we could still keep some coal plants to ensure power at night… Hence usage at night is far less than during the day. Or use wind power to store power for night use.
Additionally companies are beginning to discover ways to store and capture energy during the day for night use, this involves solar energy.
Judith, I’m with you on the nuclear issue. I’m very happy though for ShowsOn to have one just outside his back door, even in his state, just not mine.
Like most of my state (Vic) I class myself a NIMBY, especially when it comes to nuclear power plants.
ShowsOn
I don’t understand your logic on that.
Say there is 100J of electrical energy. It drives a pump which sends 90L of water up a hill one metre and loses 10% as heat, leaving 90J stored as potential (gravitational energy). The gates then open and the water falls down on a turbine which slows the water to a standstill at groundlevel. The turbine loses 5% in heat. 85J should be converted back into electrical energy. So it’s 85% efficient.
Judith- Shows on and Diogenes have already put their hands up but of course it will go in areas where people do have the money to fight such plans or who are rusted on labor supporters.
Dio I am with you on the maths.
The desalination plant and the pipeline are again the wrong options.
Yep lets take water away from a river which needs it.. That is the Murray River and the Lower Lakes which are dying. Again the environment suffers.
And also a desal plant, yep how much energy is this going to use. The same with the pipeline.
Oh i forgot we are using renewables which instead could be going to householders.
Meanwhile better options such as recycling and stormwater harvesting go to waste.
marky marky
I actually normally vote Green. And I believe I mentioned above that I don’t think Oz needs nuclear as we’ve got better options. Other countries are not so lucky and I’m more than happy for them to have nuclear. The risks of nuclear are grossly overstated and hysterical commentary about Chernobyl is like mentioning Nazi Germany. The new range of reactors can’t meltdown like Chernobyl. And in terms of lives lost per joule of energy created, nuclear is much more safe than coal. Every year, many more coal miners die as people died from every nuclear disaster.
Maybe i missed that sometimes do… I agree this country has many more options than other countries and should not be used. Coal plants i agree do have problems and cause massive probs due to pollution and mining. Would not have caught the green bit though.
Oh why, why wont somebody think of the curtains!
marky marky
As ShowsOn said, the best case scenario (barring some unforeseen breakthrough) is that renewables provide 60% of our energy by 2040. I think Rudd has pledged 20% by 2020. We still have to get that last 40% from somewhere (and other countries won’t be able to get to 60% renewable by 2040). Given that energy is very poorly transportable (at the moment), we can’t import the last 40% which leaves coal, gas or nuclear to make up the difference.
Our two big hopes for the world are a breakthrough in a cheap, easy renewable energy resource and a way to store energy to transport it. If we get them, we’ll be OK.
125 – That wasn’t my point further back but since you bring it up. If we are not getting sufficient water naturally, and we’re definitely not, then fresh water has to be created. I would argue (and could be proven wrong on this) that the weather pattern for Victoria, rather than being a drought, is now the norm and could get worse. Sure recycling and stormwater harvesting should be done but these alone will not sustain us forever, if we accept this weather is now the norm and worsening. Those measures will help while we “wait for the drought to break”. If it doesn’t we are history without taking ‘freshwater creation’ action.
Given the above you have a point in regard to the pipeline.
marky marky, we have the best wetlands in Australia in my area, the stormwater filtered clean is then sold at a profit, the mayor responsible for this, Tony Zappia was elected for labor at the last election, the greens are not the only ones who are aware, a few more like Tony in parliament and a lot more could be done.
as for NIMBY, i’m quite capable of doing something outrageous to get a point across and i’d get the publicity for it, i’d have to be pushed to the limit to do it but do it i would, mind i dont think it’ll ever come to that because i dont think they’ll ever go for reactors here.
Oh of course, we got the fax this morning.
Chernobyl was caused by people doing unauthorised tests on the reactor with all the safety systems turned off.
Excellent idea that I completely support. However, I don’t think the average Australian is willing to give up their lifestyle of energy hungry consumer electronics.
I do think the government could do a lot of things. Like remove the GST on compact fluros, insulation, and other things that save energy. They could do that next week.
Half a dozen years if they hurry. Climate change is a pressing issue, we need to act fast. Who would pay for it? The same people that pay for the construction of coal fired power stations banks.
You need almost 900J to do this Mass X Height X Gravity. All you are doing is investing energy at one point to get it back – minus inefficiency later. So the entire energy producing system is less efficient whenever you revert to storage.
I think there is one major radical option.
The federal government uses its A credit rating to spend say $10 billion on a solar thermal plant for each state.
But is that likely to happen in the current financial climate?
I voted no in the last two referendums (was only 10 in 75), and I believe that the hootest part of the day is now between 4 til 5pm and it takes ages to cool down. plus it buggers me up physically as I have Spina Bifida and it’s buggering up my body clock big time, as well as the heat causing back and shoulder pain to boot. For those who want daylight savings – get up an hour earlier
Self, self, self, Frank….
For what it’s worth, I’ll be voting against daylight saving. I’ve experienced a Melbourne summer with it, and it’s nice; Perth summers are too reliably hot, though. We need that trading hours referendum again, instead… currently in summer, we have the very odd sight of most shops closing at 6pm, while the sun sets after 8pm. (Hell, at solstice, even the local IGA closes only half an hour after sunset!) And naturally it’s more unpopular in inland parts of WA, which don’t get a sea breeze and so have hotter evenings.
Brendon Grylls had a bit of an interesting opinion on the ABC news tonight; he reckoned the ‘No’ vote won’t need much of a campaign, because it’s such a sure thing. He’s gonna need to be careful with that – losing by apathy’s not a pleasant thing to do. Meanwhile, Colin Barnett (who apparently likes getting up very early) will be voting against it. Bit different from that guy from Kalgoorlie who got it going in the first place.
OK,purely anecdotal.
My wife’s family, many of whom still live in the Friuli region of north east Italy, have had four incidents of throat and neck cancers since Chernobyl in 1986, all living in that region, which was affected by a fallout cloud from Chernobyl, over a thousand kilometres away.
Instances in the 100 years prior to Chernobyl, by which time over half the family had emmigrated, nil.
It hints at something to me ….
Frank : “I voted no in the last two referendums (was only 10 in 75)”
how’d you get away with that , an X
The two he voted in were 1984 and 1992.
Nuclear energys and ShowsOn & diog
diog , last nite you said you were open to voting Labour Greens or Liberal …sort of independent observr to site , objectiv progressive
but tonite , confessions
Diogenes
Posted Tuesday, January 27, 2009 at 11:29 pm | Permalink
“126 I actually normally vote Green.”
Outing yourself finaly , after a year of making green comments & blaming mrs diog
ShowsOn and nuclear
Whatever a “Nimby is” , I’m not it tonite you hav pushed a pro nuke power case , but not quite fronted up ands said you want nuclea power stations here……….and secondley not mentiond if yu’re hapy with them over your back fense…then you give scant relevanse to Study Lukemia that Gaffhooks says ……then you attack diog on maths & physics which confused him you talking 50% eficiency loss but your last post suggesd a minus nergy net result so gravatational output is net less than enegy to push up hill lets see link on that minus maths…then who shoot oz down as he says waste dumped in sea and you scientificaly prove it does not BUT BUT where th hell does th waste go then as you avoided that part it just doesn’t disappear so if not in oceans its damn stored ’somewhere’ and thats point ooo,s , years actives you avoid issues…next you dismiss Chernobol cause some guy testd with all safetey switchs turrned and so subject closed , no no irelevants I don’t care how it happend it happened thts point causing output to air by human error……then you talk nuke power as if nothing else can provide base load , well photo cells will without waste and sun always here millions years and uranium will run out …then there’s solar thermol ….there’spre solar heated water to assist coal…then there’s under R & D solar and hydogen with new catylist instrad of platinum ….then as starters is those simple solar panels they exist you can puts up on a roof and they can work ……..then you mention nite problam but don’t mention you can zap exces day enegy & store as compressed air in undergroond caverns trapped during nighttime hours …spo no alternatives think plenty , will and funds may be issue ……then you talk about nukle stations like if govts treat them like an icecream factory for aproval , well Govts look at them as how people will think re safety , unknown stuffs so reel fear about nuclear enegy & about whose suburb its gona go in Well name th surburbs cause I don’t reckon there ar any so no Labo govt wuld do it politcaly ….of course you forgets its Labor idealology principal of no nuke plants anyway so its not going to happen on philosophy ……now i’ve pointed out befoutr 15% of world power is from nuke enegy but problam is ShowsOn is I may not be a ‘Nimby’ whatever but i don’t ned to be as if above isn’t convincing i just don’t like nuke energy because I don’t tink this generation has right to leave 000’s of years waste active to 000’s years of future generatons , numerous options listed above , ands anyway when solar is frees , you dismiss Carbon Capture as theory but pilot plant operational and more planned , fusion is maybe 20 years only per Themonuclear team , and future may hav enegy from space panels picking up sun , and as for your quote “‘This is basic physics” well yes , spoken like a true intelectual …then I’d say my “non nymbist” comments reprsent ‘This is basic comonsense”
There is no conclusive evidence of any increase in Childhood Leukeamia near Nuclear Powers Stations or after Chernobyl.
People like to quote one study into the Krümmel plant in Germany – but its methodology has been questioned and other researchers cannot duplicate their results.
“Studies around UK nuclear installations suggest that it is possible that the incidence of leukaemia in young persons may be increased in the vicinity of such installations. However, the results of these studies are inconsistent and the cause or causes of the apparent increases are unknown; they may be at least in part attributable to chance variations in incidence, to selection factors, or to variations in completeness of recording. ”
Department of Paediatrics, University of Oxford, UK.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
If people want to make a case for increased cancer incidence they should use thyroid cancer. But of course the emotive issue of young bald kids is much more powerful.
Judith Barnes
This will do me for an alternative.
My car feeding the Grid and getting paid for it!
Vehicle to grid (V2G) power was demonstrated by Google and PG&E during 2007 and is now the subject of experiments by several utilities. A University of Delaware statement estimated that selling power to the grid from future production hybrid electric cars might earn the vehicles’ owner $4,000 each year. This assumes that power will be drawn by utilities from the car’s batteries, by means of a two-way, plug.
In the future, cars powered by new energy conversion systems are expected to earn much more, as these generators are anticipated to replace both batteries and car engines. Therefore, they are expected to produce far greater amounts of electricity. No plug will be required.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Revolutionary-Cost-Compet-by-Mark-Goldes-090124-536.html
Gaff, different things will turn up along the way, each one better than the last, i have a great deal of faith in the human mind, especially as different scientists in different countries will be trying different systems, if we can put a man on the moon and build space stations we can and will do it.
Ron, NIMBY means not in my back yard.
Ronster
1. If we needed nuclear, I’d be happy to have a nuclear power plant in Adelaide near me. Mr Burns could operate it with Homer Simpson as safety officer.
2. The newer reactors leave much lower level waste as the uranium is more depleted.
3. ruawake is better informed than me on this but my understanding is that there is no convincing evidence of any increase in any disease due to proximity to a nuclear power station. One type of thyroid cancer is the most contentious.
4. On the maths,the 70-85% efficiency was still correct but ShowsOn was working out his joules based on gravity of 9.8. My calculations were based on moon gravity of 1 but the principle was the same.
I’m not completely opposed to nuclear. I’d need someone to convince me strongly of the case to oppose it.
Diog,
A mistake you make is a beilef that technology and self appointed moral righteousness triumphs all.
Might I remind you that Cane Toads were a scientific solution to a problem and most economists can predict nine of the last three recessions. Wordy technological savants love to “shows off” their technical expertise (I suppose it keeps them off the street and protects our small furry animals from molestation).
However, nuclear technology is unproven in an Australian environment, is expensive and the benefits are not guaranteed. Furthermore, the safety issues surrounding waste and weapons proliferation are not resolved. Finally, the introduction of nuclear power is unlikely to be achieved on just the say so of a few zealots. It will require the mass support of the general population (which is unlikely).
In short, protagonists have yet to provide a convincing case. It would be moronic to think otherwise.
Here’s an example of whizz bang technology not delivering.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iL-5qI1IqMzmWJyE8DREG3fK_iMAD95U85900
this puts paid to Christian Kerr’s attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, unless of course Mr Kerr would like to boast that Obama reads his scribblings inbetween meetings with whitehouse chiefs.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/obama-rings-rudd-for-first-time-as-chief-20090128-7r8f.html
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/recessions-dont-have-to-be-feared-20090127-7qwu.html?page=-1
Ross Gittins has to be the most sane and logical economist around the trap at the moment. No matter how bad it will get here, Australia will never suffer the hardships other countries have gone and are going through.
Hardships iin every sense – socially, economically, financially, environmentally and naturally. We are still in paradise. So stop whinging.
Another thing is that human beings also do the opposite to what is good for them.
Diogenes went:
Dio, just for you
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/01/28/is-opinion-on-nuclear-power-changing/
pmsl Dio, oh great favoured one, your certainly getting the vip treatment.{i wish i could make those smiley faces}
GG
Why does everyone keep bucketing me as advocating nuclear in Oz? I’ve said on numerous occasions, for the reasons you give, that I don’t think we should have nuclear power in Australia. As you say, it would never get up anyway.
Possum
Thanks for that. Those graphs are just beautiful.
As you say there isn’t really an increase in support for nuclear power but more people as considering it rather than being opposed to it. The interesting thing is how that very large 22% undecided group breaks. There’s a big opportunity for either side to capture that big group with some publicity.
Why do people keep ignoring the fact the fact that solar thermal plants in California and Spain are currently providing baseload and there are hundreds of megawatts more of plants currently being built, with that capability, even in Australia.
Pretending like they don’t exist and the only way to get future energy is from gas/coal/nuclear makes one look ignorant and stubborn.
They need a remake of A is for Atom!
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=T6UujimddEc
How big is Kerr’s head.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24974047-601,00.html
He seems to be implying that Obama called Rudd only because The Australia said he didn’t.
Th rules ar those that suport nuclar power stations hav to justify there case , not other way around , these terms of engagement hav been already decided So far pro nuke brigade hav failed miserably AND polls suport my assertion
Trend lines by Gallup and Newsoll over 30 years from 1979 to 2007 show opposition averaged over 5 polls at 51% , excludig undecids , then out of blue Essential at 35% , & until proven otherwise Essential is outliar on its own making pro nukers out on own as minority where belong
Pro nukers actualy about 35% consistent for 30 years incl Essential , so thats LCP territory and caput
Then this is politcal Site , what govt wuld sneeze at 35% support on such emmotion issue , so lets be reel its politcaly off table unless well over 505 which won’t happen
Perhips look at Garnaut’s view of what he didn’t say A report for future that treatd nuker power as a toxic subject & scants interst , like nudge wink fom govt of course , so its dustbinned there too
Judith “Ron, NIMBY means not in my back yard’
thanks judith , hav no backyard …..so that kills another ShowOn ’s argument
diog “The newer reactors leave much lower level waste as the uranium is more depleted.”
so diog this quote “leave much lower level waste” leaves lower no of years its still toxic active as well ? nah , so ‘waste’ is still ‘waste’ no matter how dressd ups and it stays for effective “evers”…..like a present for fute generatons who’ll so reely appreciate we developed tech to leave not as much nuke waste as we could hav
Problam for pro nukers is ‘waste’ ex “fission” nuke stationsis elephants in room for eternaty
Also diog you say fine for nuke station in Adlaide , but you in minority per polls , in fact with reel greenie mrs diog in charge who even minority in own house
How long to build one , about 6 years , output av 1,000mw….now is that going to replace coal or oil for oz , no it wuld do little
Whereeeee’s th cost comparisons to R E seeing carbon tax is $40 per tonne and
Of cousrs pro nukers don’t want to talk solar , solar thermol etc as they’re now cost effectiv , free of waste , guaranteed sourse from sun for evers and co2 friendlys These R E thingys reely exist in world operatig so why ignoire what is , what is not a ‘waste’ provider
and u-238 , cn someone actualy guarantee it is 1005 safe , thought not based on ‘WHO’ , and these ar early reletive days of research
Like to know where all uranium is goona come from also , as its running out then what…eyesores left behind , then some bright spark will say ..why didn’t be use as a base enegy sourse something that lasts like wind , solar , thermols , tides
then we hav big oilys and big GMH buying up alternative techs to oil and putting them in bottom drawers Like electric car on ACA mechanic built his own , goes 100km till recharge , rechargd by R E , and massive cost per km of 8 cents per litre
In fact , tinking of above factors togethr without a nuker cherry picking points , then reflect on that misarable 35% pro suport , they need therapy
Th only case pro nuklers hav got is a case full of everlastin nuke ‘live’ waste , and can keep it
Very early this morning Steve Lewis produced a scoop – The RBA had reservations about the Government’s $4 billion lending facility for commercial property. I’ve tried to find that article but alas it’s disappeared. Maybe this is the reason.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24974136-601,00.html
Where do these journalists get their info from?
Gary, is this what you’re after?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudd-snubs-reserve-bank/2009/01/27/1232818435492.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudd-snubs-reserve-bank/2009/01/27/1232818435492.html
Ah, that’ll teach me for reading the article before posting it.
Two weeks ago I visited the Three Gorges Dam in China. It’s the biggest dam in the world, and hosts the biggest hydro power station in the world. Soon it will be producing 10% of China’s total power production, the equivalent of 16 nuclear power plants and god knows how many coal-fired plants (they did tell me but I forgot the figure). It will have some unfortunate environmental effects upstream (by creating a large lake which will silt up and breed various diseases, as Lake Aswan in Egypt does), but the offsetting benefit of saving all that coal-burning must be seen as a higher priority right now. I was a sceptic until I saw the dam and cruised the gorges (which are still stunning despite the water having risen 170m) and saw the dam. Now I’m persuaded that big hydro is part of the answer to the energy dilemma. I believe we have a number of rivers in the north which could still be harnessed for hydro. And even if we don’t PNG and West Papua certainly do, and we could build hydro plants and then buy the power from PNG and Indonesia. We should look more closely at this.
Thanks Poss and Oz.
Just going back to daylight savings and the cows for a sec
Sure as dyno says farmers could milk the cows at 6 instead of 5 but back when daylight saving first started the milk trucks would still arrive to pick up the milk to take to factories at the same time so the cows did need to be milked earlier to catch the milk truck. Things may be different now, the farmers might have storage facilities on their farms, dunno, but way back when they didn’t and the milk trucks couldn’t come an hour or more later as it would have thrown everything outa whack. would mean workers starting an hour or 2 later and finishing later for one thing. That would defeat the purpose of DS which I thought one reason was to give us more leisure time by having longer daylight hours after work?
Judith
here’s a link that shows how to do smilies
http://sarahcherim.com/info/#smileys
Adam
I think you have been downplaying the biggest concern about the Three Gorges Dam, which is the Zombie Holocaust angle, which hasn’t been solved to my knowledge.
As the dills who phone up Jones/Hadley et al would say…Love your show, I am a long time listener, first time caller…so please go easy on me…Regarding the storing of energy specifically pumping water from a reservior to a higher level and using power generation at a later date, I really don’t believe it would be anywhere near 85% efficient…Modern pumping (centrifugal) technology is lucky to achieve 85% efficiency by itself..then you have to add system losses due to pipe friction, associated valving, sudden contraction (from reservior into the pipe)…Then there are the inefficiencies in the motor drives…the electrical drive itself then transmission losses in the belts or fluid coupling…Also to get that much water up a hill to do any good, you would probably need some pretty big pumps and multi-staging them (more losses). Now this is just getting the fluid up the hill…Now add to that all the losses (similar order of magnitude I would guess) of the water running down the hill and then the turbine generation losses…Not knowing too much about power generation I would take a punt at say lucky to be 60% for the whole shebang…Almost nearly forgot, I need to include that some of the water would likely evaporate on those hot summer days, and not be avialable to generate subsequent power.
Dubbs
Welcome to the fray. I’ve got a link below for the pumped-storage hydroelectricity which says it’s 70-85% efficient. Seemed a bit high to me as well but that’s what they quote.
The thermochemical storage with ammonia is more popular because you don’t need a lake on top of a mountain for it so it’s a lot more practical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
Ah that’s where you’re wrong, because there is a whole display in the Viewing Centre about zombie prevention. There are hundreds of ectoplasmic detectors around a 10km perimeter protecting the site. The Chinese take this stuff very seriously. Only in China do you see buildings with claws on their eaves to prevent dragons landing on the roof – a very sensible precaution, especially in the mating season.
thanks Vera
just practicing
Adam
I agree hydro is perferable to coal power. Hydro options are looked at by those modelling future power supply alternatives. The potential is low in Australia however, because on the whole we live in one of the flattest continents, as well as the driest. Figures I saw at Adelaide Uni were that its potential in Australia was much less than wind power for example.
Here is Ross Gittins putting a more sanguine (and realistic) view on the pending recession.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/recessions-dont-have-to-be-feared-20090127-7qwu.html?page=-1
Adam
There was some unpleasantness on the weekend about Menzies. His Brisbane Line plan to hand over half of Australia to the Japanese if they asked nicely enough came up (I’d never heard of it but everyone else sure had). Is there any truth to it?
Bernard Keane has written an open letter to Turnbull and Bishop available on the Crikey homepage
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090128-Open-letter-to-Malcolm-Turnbull-and-Julie-Bishop.html
Diogenes and Socrates – What is this, Greek-philosophers-get-in-free day?
The potential for further hydro in Australia may be limited, but it’s not nil. Anyway that’s why I suggested we build some huge dams in PNG and then buy the power from them.
The Brisbane Line was an allegation made by Eddie Ward and some other stirrers in the ALP. There was of course an Army contingency plan to withdraw to a defensible line if the Japanese invaded, and quite rightly so – defending the whole continent would have been impossible against a serious Japanese invasion. I think the plan was to withdraw roughly to a line Brisbane-Adelaide, which would have protected 80% of the population. (Even that line would probably have been impossible to hold with the troops available in 1942.) But the plan was not an official plan or the policy of the Menzies government, as Ward alleged. Curtin never supported the allegations. After he became PM there was a Royal Commission which found that the Brisbane Line was a myth, although Ward and others continued their allegations, which probably contributed to Curtin’s huge win in 1943. There’s a new book on all this called “Invading Australia”, but I haven’t read it yet.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Money/Story/STIStory_330860.html
As far as I can gather, so far, the Rudd Govt has only shelved out some $25Bs to cushion the GFC blow, as well the country is not yet in recession and the budget is not in deficit. You have to ask yourself, what is wrong with the Rudd Govt?
Australia has 21m people, so $25bn is a bit more than $1,000 a head. Asia, if defined to include China and India, as it is in the Straits Times article, has about 3bn people, so an equivalent per capita spend would be about $3 trillion. What’s wrong with Asian governments?
174 Steve K – Brilliant letter
Adam, it’s rich man, poor man. Rich man eats whenever he wants to, poor man whenever he can.
A lot of the $1.4 Trillion spent or planned to be spend in the US is to prop up, buy out, bail out or nationalise many of their banks, depending on how you look at it. We aren’t going to need to do that so Rudd can afford to underspend the US per capita. He’s a responsible, conservative economic manager.
Diog, talking about the black hole (no pun intended). They still dont know nor can find out, how and where the first $350B went. yes, she acts just like a black hole.
I’ve no idea what Finns’s comment is supposed to mean in relation to the subject under discussion. Anyway stimulus spending in Asian countries is a very different proposition, because most Asian countries have no culture of consumerism. If you gave $1000 to everyone in China, they would quite literally put it under their mattresses, because they don’t spend more than they have to, they are prudent about saving for the future and they don’t trust banks. The only way the Chinese government can stimulate the economy is by spending the money itself, on infrastructure projects. But as the Japanese have shown, you can only fit so much infrastructure into a country. It may well be that the Chinese economy is simply not susceptible to stimulation, except by the restoration of its export markets. In that case we are in very deep doodoo indeed, because if China goes down we will go down with it.
True Adam, but in terms of infrastructure, China is far, far behind Japan
Finns
Sure they do, Finns. They had to use it to pay off Hillary’s campaign debt.
Adam, you have just explained what I meant. It has to be the duty and responsibility of the Chinese and Indian Government to ensure that the majority of their people eat whenever they want to, not whenever they can. The Chinese Govt should spend their own capital to build not just infra-structure, but factories. So the people can have jobs and then they can spend and become a little richer. So far, the factories in China have been built using foreign capital and they fled at the first sign of trouble. So far, 6 millions have lost their job.
btw:
http://business.smh.com.au/business/strathfield-calls-in-administrators-20090128-7rcx.html
Diog, are you declaring war again?
Possum
At the same time, they might as well update the infamous “Duck and Cover” defense against the atomic bomb.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=C0K_LZDXp0I&feature=related
Finns
I couldn’t help it. It just slipped out. I’ve got the bloggers version of Tourette’s syndrome.
I met some Chinese-Canadians in Shanghai and they said that Overseas Chinese capital is now flooding out of the country as people scramble to get their money out before the crash.
Diog, it’s OK. I am quite content to continue smoking my peace pipe under the Macchu Picchu Knowledge Tree. Cheers.
Adam, yes indeed. the Overseas Chinese just love their Motherland, love her money that is. As soon as Mum is poor, we send her to the nursing home and out of sight.
There must be incredible amounts of energy in the constant pulsing of ocean waves. Australia is literally surrounded by the stuff, and it’s a 24/365 source. It is a shame we cannot / do not harness the potential of this renewable ‘resource’.
You would have them persist in losing investments out of patriotic sentiment?
Tomorrow we may have the first openly gay Prime Minister in the world, in Iceland.
Has anyone got a tissue to give to this goose (is it OK to use that bird term William?)
Malcolm wants to be co PM with Rudd by the sounds of him, the big sook.
and since when did that friend of the terrorists Obama become Talcs role model?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/28/2476492.htm
“From the moment we went into opposition we have sought to be as obstructionist and irresponsible as possible on this, and indeed on everything.”
g’day Vera
“We’ve offered to SIT down with Mr Rudd so many times I couldn’t tell you how many,” he said.”
and do what ?……sit down
So if Trunbull becomes PM Vera , we all just sit down…..so for godness sake don’t sit up when Turnbull says to sit down will you
Think Adam waslooking for 3 gorges in oz , we just don’t hav enough water , but PNG bit has potential
hi Ron
Malcolm is (as usual) bignoteing himself, well lets face it no one else will. Could be he wants a medal like Howie got.
Vera , not unless Bush will award th award sitting down…talk about a sook of sooks
Malcolm is suffering from irrelevance syndrome
I’m sitting down Ron
Just to keep Malcolm happy, He only want’s to sit down with Rudd so he’ll get an iced vo-vo , the greedy guts.
re daylight saving
Most farmers now have bulk milk storage, but at peak times the milk is picked up every day.
in theory the farmers can milk at any time, but in reality they have to fall in line with the rest of society
They usuall start milking at 4 pm , which reverts to 3 pm in ds.
This is in the very hottest part of the day which is most uncomfortable and difficult for the cows and the farmer.
No farmer in his right mind would ever vote for daylight saving
Speaking as an exdairy farmer
Turnbull will have plenty of opportunity to sit down and work positively through the issues with the Government. We used to call it Parliament.
#196, [Think Adam waslooking for 3 gorges in oz]
Amigo, you mean:
Think Adam waslooking for 3 gorgeous in oz
it’s Malcolm’s fault, it’s all that hot air he’s blowing out causing this massive heatwave, phew it’s bluddy hot here, i’ve got ducted evaporative and it’s struggling.
Judy
Its a balmy 29 degrees here on the Sunny Coast Qld – I have the doors and windows open and the sea breeze is refreshing.
Turnbull was in Qld today chanting LNP-LNP-LNP so maybe he is sucking up Springborg’s hot air and sending it south?
ruawake, it hit over 45 here today and it’s going to stay over the 40’s for the next week, you can have Turnbull, he’s like a little boy throwing tantrums so mummy will take notice of him, my aircon has it bearable but i’m dreading it maybe overworking and blowing something during this week, even nights are expected to be in the high 30’s.
195 – good to see Turnbull is continuing with his bipartisan tactic. Here I was worried the LNP would come up with something new. Instead they’re obviously using the old “doing precisely what we’ve done 20 times before will catch the enemy by surprise” trick.
I wish him well.
Gawd Judith you poor thing! We here on south coast NSW are forecast low to mid 30s for the next week and I thought that was bad enough, but I won’t dare complain now seeing you lot and the Vics are in for 40+ temps,
Maybe it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to get malcolm to visit you Judith after all, he’s a big blowhard and if he was to do his thing he might blow all the hot weather away for you.
Vera even getting rid of the heat wouldnt make me want Turnbull here, MHS is bad enough.
OK guys thats it! clear out the spare rooms, ruawake i’m coming up to stay with you for a few days and then i’m moving down to Vera’s, dunno how Dio is travelling with the heat but he might end up your way as well,:)—luv those smileys.
whoops did something wrong
Judith – you need to always put a space between the smiley and the next key stoke
: ) like that?
AHA! eureka!!
You’ve changed your gravatar as well Judith – you are getting all techie!
Judith the spare room’s yours
just watch out for Possom’s relatives if you arrive at night! I got about a dozen of the buggers come looking for a feed when it gets dark.
Grog my gravatar is nemisis goddess of retribution, i rather fancy the idea of her sneaking up on evildoers and tapping them on the shoulder with a nice smile, it’s just a foible of mine along with a belief in karma, it’s just the superstitious Irish side of my family — but you never know
Vera i dont mind a few possums, the only one i’ve ever seen around PB’s seems a friendly enough chappy, one thing do they snack on unexpected visitors?
Judy
If you ever feel like a break at Coolum Beach let me know, plenty of spare beds for nice people.
ruawake, thankyou my friend, maybe one day when things get on top of me here i just might take you up on that,
Seems like Malcolm cant get anyone to agree with him, he’s been criticising the Govt’s $4bil construction fund and now an economist who advises Access Economics is full of praise for the plan.
Also had to smile watching ABC news, they had a clip of Malcolm on talkback radio saying Rudds stimulus package hadn’t worked which was followed by a story of Woolworths sales being up ( 9% I think?) and the credit being given to Rudds stimulus package! Malcolm just can’t take a trick.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/28/2476474.htm?section=justin
Judith, nah possoms are very sociable , you just need to watch your fingers when you hand them bread and jam
48 degrees Celsius outside my window at 6pm.
More tomorrow.
fredex, where are you? it sounds like Adelaide.
vera, i’ve quite a lot of stuff on my plate in the forseeable future but maybe when it’s all over and i need a bolt hole i might just come your way, ive got nimble fingers lol,
No worries Judith, me and the criters will still be here
Turnbull has opened a can of worms with his latest non sense.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/28/2476696.htm?section=justin
Yet again he seems to think that reducing tax for individuals will help business, it will not. Reducing tax will not affect business – small or large. Unless Malcolm thinks they should keep the money and not pass it on to employees.
Or is he talking about company tax? If he is ,come out and say it for crud’s sake.
Next bit is depreciation “the Coalition would double depreciation rates…” so what? If you own rental property it may be a great thing, but how does it create jobs?
It seems that Malcolm is looking after landlords – who will go for a cheap and nasty fix and pocket the money.
Geez the guy is a dill.
The Australian Industry Group (Ai Group) says the Federal Government would be irresponsible if it did not go into deficit to stimulate the economy.
I can’t wait ’till next tuesday – Spit Roast Malcolm.
Judith
The 45.7 degree temp really wasn’t so bad today. I took the advice from that nice man the Energy Minister Paul Holloway and switched off the air conditioning. My family died of heat stroke but I feel happy knowing they didn’t die in vain. We helped keep up the charade that our State’s electricity system is functioning well.
Of course, when the power blacked out despite the dead family and martyrish low electricity use, my mood soured somewhat.
he’s a pratt, the government signals it’s looking towards tax cuts to help the economy so Turnbull jumps on the bandwagon and trumpets what kind of tax cuts they should bring forward and if the government does the tax cuts he’ll try to take the applause for it, seems like his mole in treasury has been tracked down, lately he hasnt been able to try and beat the government on what moves they’re making next, with the mole he managed to come up with what were government plans and act as if they were his ideas and Rudd was copying him, the trouble is he’s so transparent.
Dio at least we didnt have a blackout in Salisbury but my evaporative is 12 years old so i’m speaking to it nicely to boost it along, i cant see any tech climbing up on my roof to give it new life if it goes, i must look at a new one next year.
Judith, we are on the Murray 100 km east of Adelaide and its currently booming with thunder and lightning outside, bit scary really cos everything is very dry outside.
fredex the lightning would be terrifying with the dryness around you, hopefully it’ll rain, all it is is bluddy hot here, about 37-8 overnight, hey Dio, perhaps we could go and camp in the hallowed precincts of a lovely cool parliament house, though i’ve no doubt it’ll hot up with the first sitting next week.
Cuppa, back at 191, I think. Ad Astra at Political Sword has 2 new add ons on his site; one which watches what the gov’t. is doing and the other that watches what the Opposition is doing, well, saying really. I was looking through the gov’t. stuff and came across an announcement back in October last year of a pilot program for a defence site in W.A. on generating energy from wave power. It looked quite interesting, as it was proposed to power both the defence site and a desal. plant for the site.
Must say, Turnbull is sounding more and more like a desperate wannabe. Must be a torture for he who thinks he should be PM, but ain’t. Glen, you guys have got to get rid of him. He’s definitely a loser.
Diogenes, I can only whimper in sympathy, here in Melbourne. I don’t know how some of our vulnerable folk are surviving. You go do a home visit, and the temperature outside the house is, say, 37 degrees, and it will be 10 to 15 degrees hotter inside. Today was ghastly, with more on the way for S.E. Aust..
Judith
I went to Parliament House once. My brother-in-law won a guided tour and dinner with Joan Hall. Somehow I got dragged along. Let’s just say that Joan Hall and I didn’t hit it off. Her parting words to me were “I hope you grow out of your cynicism”.
Clearly, I haven’t. I really had to stop myself from sending her a letter when she was forced to resign due to her Hindmarsh Stadium “conflict of interest”. The letter was going to be very short. “Looks like my cynicism was quite appropriate in your case, doesn’t it.”
HSO, 37deg sounds like a lovely cool change from where i’m sitting, i was born in the worse heat wave we ever had here and i’ve hated the heat ever since, another week of this and i’ll be a unbearably temperamental old biddy and truly i’m usually a reasonably placid old fossil.
Dio, i luv it, i wished you’d sent it, ooooh to be a fly on the wall when she opened it, i had a few run ins with Robin Millhouse when he was AG, i stayed polite though while gritting my teeth, Atkinsons ok but our best AG over the last few years was Chris Summner.
Turnbull making a dill of himself again, Dio, can humans catch foot and mouth disease? Turnbull seems to have a bad case.
does anyone want to guess how much the interest rates will be going down next week?
whoops you need the link.
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/01/28/2476566.htm
it’s the heat that made me forget it
I hesitate to post this as the article it refers to was written by Kerr at the OO, but after much deliberation, I thought I should still refer to it.
Switkowski has clearly been following the polls closely and it won’t be long before the nuclear industry starts talking up this latest poll. Here he is commenting on a UMR poll from this month (which they intimate was done for the Labor Party) on what will be our predominant power source in 2028. 26% said solar (as if), 23% said coal (I’d estimate it was 90% certain to be coal) and 20% said nuclear, which pleased Ziggy no end. He described that as “strikingly strong” and said “The acceptance of nuclear continues to lift.”
20pc say nuclear will carry the load
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24882067-2702,00.html
Judith
Joan Hall really revolted me. Sanctimonious and hypocritical, my least favourite combination.
Hi Harry “Snapper” Organs,
Thanks for the tip. Will check it out. I do check Ad Astra’s fine blog regularly, even add the occasional comment, but not, I’ll admit, since he signed off for 2008. Which reminds me, Bushfire Bill posts there pretty often too, but haven’t seen him around anywhere lately. Hope all is well with him, he’s having a good break, and will be back on deck soon.
On tidal power. Something tells me we haven’t heard the last of this option. There is untold energy in waves, as any surfer who’s simply been dumped will testify. Considering the proportion of the population that lives in close proximity to the coast, must make the option more worth considering, or so I as a complete layman would have thought.
Judith, maybe Turnbull forgot these charts before making that comment.
http://www.rba.gov.au/ChartPack/inflation_wage_measures.pdf
now how would Kerr get his hands on labor party polling? is he guessing? by the way he’s trying to hint Obama rang Rudd because of his no call piece, Ziggy would jump on the bandwagon, of course, nuclear has been his hobby horse for years, i really cant see Rudd doing a u turn because of Essential Research,Kerr and Ziggy.
Joan rode into politics on the coat tails of Steele, i didnt know either of them but then i’ve always been on friendlier terms with the labor pollies, labor lost a lot when Lynn Arnold moved on.
Steve, Turnbull only sees what he wants to see and hear what he wants to hear, it’s great when you can just cherry pick with immunity.
At this rate, it’s obviously going to be coal.
Turnbull cant win Heather Ridout and her group are urging Rudd to go into decifit, that puts him in the spot with treating decifits like leprosy.
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/01/28/2476760.htm
Diog “I hesitate to post this…” , but then you did
It remind me of G island set where so many I lost count started off a blog with :
‘I don’t wish to insult you Ron , but …..” , then they damn well did
You did report Ziggy coments , apro nuker and a vested interst in nuclear power And we get a ‘leaked’ convenient poll…and for that special year of 2028 BTW whats happening in 2028
But neither Ziggy or pro nukers can properley address holes in nuke argument I raised today , or indeed made by other postersas well Instead they ignore them tinking we and our sound arguments against nuke power will go away , well we won’t and polls suport our side strongley
this puts the final nail in the coffin of Kerr’s cold shoulder from Obama piece, i hope for Kerr’s sake that egg on the face is good for the complexion.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24974405-601,00.html
Ron, you’ll never get the pro nuclear lobby to change their minds no matter what evidence you put in front of them, Ziggy is on a mission, nuff said.
Judith you oppose nuclear energy for no other reason than you have been proven wrong that nuclear power is dangerous (it isnt) and wont help climate change (it will) and wont provide our future energy needs (it will)…the anti-nuclear proponents are like flat earthers they wont look at the science and the evidence because they have a religious like hate for something they know very little about…
Mark my works Nuclear will be a part of Australia’s future energy needs whether you like it or not Judith…sit back and enjoy the ride!
Judith , you ar completely right , However like to remind pro nukers here and other places , that opposition is still strong and prepared to fight , and at any time with sounder argumetns than they hav
The Libs just keep on giving. I could do a whole line of smileys and it still wouldn’t be enough.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24977374-2862,00.html
Ron, Judith,
Are you anti-nuclear everywhere?
Or just for us because we have so many alternatives?
You’ve got to love the Curious Snail, first with the latest. Only one month and five days late with this story but hell, it’s difficult to cook up news of a February Queensland election and keep an eye on the news as well.
http://www.reuters.com/article/economicNews/idUSPEK31683620081223
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24978016-5003402,00.html
dyno we have 30% of known reserves of uraniums we’re stupid for not having nuclear power really…
Glen, dont patronise me mate, i’ve been proven nothing, talk down to me and you might just bite off more than you can chew, at the present time it’s best i dont answer your jibes, you enjoy your ride to nowhere.
dyno, i said before i’m a NIMBY, we have so many alternatives, so many we havnt explored before, if someone wanted to put a wind farm on the reserve opposite my home i’d grieve a little for losing that space the local children play in but i’d give way for the greater good, obviously some other countries dont have the advantages we have and they must do as they see fit, saying that i dont think we should take their waste, i have great faith that alternatives to nuclear power will be found and soon, look dyno i’m no expert, actually i’m rather thick at times but i’m open to most ideas and if anyone can show me new ideas or even old ones i’m open to them.
Judith just remember your glorious leader Kevin Rudd got Labor to stop its idiotic 3 mines policy whether you like it or not nuclear is coming…
Vera thats a gem, we try to pretend Pyne doesnt come from Adelaide, he’s so full of himself he cant see past his nose.
i really do love those smileys 
Yes, Glen, reminds of religious zealots telling me that I won’t wear out my current pair of shoes because Jesus is coming soon..it’s a considerable timelapse since that promise was made!
Steve, just what do you expect from Newsltd? next they’ll be telling us obamas running for president.
Glen, just because we have something in the ground doesn’t mean we have to dig it up. There’s probably a good reason it’s buried underground.
I mean, if there was something underground that had the potential to kill hundreds of thousands of people, and even if used for a beneficial purpose like electricity generation, created harmful waste lasting tens of thousands of years, would you dig it up?
Oh wait.
lol Judith
I think it’s a requirement you need to be let into the Liberal Party
Here’s one good reason to do everything possible to stimulate the economy and get the GFC sorted out. It is traumatic for people who have worked hard all their lives to be left destitute at a time when they should be enjoying their retirement.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24977052-952,00.html
No 263
Pump priming the economy won’t work. The issue is confidence – you don’t inspire confidence by giving handouts to bludgers.
thats dreadful Steve, i cant even visualise what hell they’d be going through, now i’m thankful that i’ve never had the money to invest, to be left destitute at that time of life would be horrific, some of these companys have a lot to answer for, i have a friend who lost it all with the HIH/FIA disaster, Malcolm was in the drivers seat of Goldman Sachs then, funny we never hear about that when the libs laud his financial prowess.
No 265
Judith, Mr Turnbull cannot be blamed for the HIH/FIA collapse.
g’night folks, this little rubber duckey has had a rotten hot day with more to come so i’ll toddle off to get what rest i can, tomorrows another day.
GP, he was in charge of Goldman Sachs when they reccomended HIH take over FIA, if he wasnt responsible why was he along with the others trying to arrange a settlement so he didnt have to go to court?
Judith, the HIH Royal Commission cleared Mr Turnbull. Again, you’re clutching at straws looking for someone to blame.
Glen 250, I recently went to a dinner where (retired) Maj Gen Peter Cosgrove was a guest speaker…Quite an interesting chat…In his closing when he projected where Australia would be in 50 years time, he noted that “Australia will be nuclear powered not nucleur armed”…This sort of gave me the warm fuzzies…As an aside which I also found quite interesting, he proposed that our major threat (political stability and militarily) will not come from Indonesia but from PNG/Melanesia…Couldn’t really see it myself but he made a pretty compelling argument
GP, nobody is talking about giving handouts to bludgers. The bludgers have been high paid, incompetent groups working in financial institutions with little or no understanding of the risks they were exposing people’s hard earned savings to in the derivatives markets.
Once all that collapsed, another group exposed ordinary people to more risk by getting them to mortgage their assets to play the sharemarket. Confidence is not a result of getting petty little rightwingers into jobs where they can advise people how to divest their money. Confidence is all about knowing that financial advice is trustworthy.
Steve 263, whilst I sympathise for the investors caught up in the Storm Financial collapse, I seem to remember two very important pieces of advice…(1) never gamble more than you are prepared to lose and (2) never put all your eggs in the one basket…Mortgaging your house and putting the money + life savings into the share market with one financial brokerage firm might seem like a good idea whe the market is rising, but it is just gambling all the same…I may just add my dear old mum has also lost about 70% of her retirement investments…
Is it just me or is anyone else pi$$ed off that the miserable bunch of doomsayers we call “economic journalists” (followed closely by the even more miserable bunch of deathwatchers we call “political journalists”, out for a quick nasty grab to discredit the government) have, it seems finally done it?
With their endless barrel scraping, mud slinging and bottom dwelling about such things as “are we in a recession yet?”, or “do deficits really matter?”, or “how many thousands of jobs have been lost today?” they’ve finally undermined confidence to such an extent that the IMF had had to reverse its predictions of just a couple of months ago and now says things look worse than they have for 60 years.
If there is one thing that will ensure an economic crisis gets worse, it’s a bunch of losers with nothing better to do than look for bad news (and sometimes manufacture it) and then write it up in a pathetic attempt to trump the other guy, at the next newspaper or TV station, who is just as woeful and will have to catch up in the race to the bottom tomorrow. Sure, many things are wrong and have been unsustainable, but when your average punter reads that house prices might drop by 20% in the next year, who’s going to be the first one to buy a house? Same for electronics prices, jobs and garden gnomes for all I know.
It makes me sick to see how we’ve talked ourselves into the gloom that now seems to be unfolding as a self-fulfilling prophecy, aided and abetted by a gleeful press, eager not ot be outdone in spreading stories of impending catastrophe. Almost every item on the ABC news and current affairs radio these days is about how rotten things are, and how much rottener they’re going to get in every direction. The Australian is full of sickening articles on how Workchoices would have solved all problems. Turnbull never stops blathering on regarding how he would solve the crisis (if only Rudd would turn over management of the economy to him and get out of the way of the World’s Greatest Economic Genius).
Anyway, haven’t posted for a while. I just wanted to get that off my chest.
welcome home BB, i for one have missed you, i think i told you before i found your blogs interesting, amusing and i’ve learnt a lot from them, it’s good to see you back and yes the Australian is chokka with doom and gloom.
GP. Turnbull was in conference making settlement offers with a couple of other directors to keep themselves out of court just a few months ago, go check, when it comes to spivs and snakeoil salesmen i dont have to clutch at straws mate i can smell them a mile off.
The economic stimulus package was a big boost to the Pokies machine. It created an extra $500 million in turnover of pubs, club and the state governments
Too bad little if any of it will help our economy. It was just a horrible through out plan, if only the government had spend it more wisely
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24977695-5006009,00.html
To all you Liberal supporters who think the NSW Labor Gov does not have a plan for infrastructure. You guys have no idea
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24977396-5001021,00.html
see Rees plan on begging to the Federal government for money, and if that does not work, he will beg to the Victorian Governemnt and then the Qld government. See he had a plan all along
Hadn’t thought much about the media’s role in this recently. Thanks, Bushfire Bill.
275
You must be logged in from a small island in a remote ocean somewhere with the rest of the doubters – it’s a very small island indeed. The stimulus package has been received with approval from almost all serious economists.
The point of the stimulus package was to quickly inject cash into the system. Tax cuts would have been too slow. The bottom line is that it doesn’t really matter whether the money was spent at the pokies, used to make an extra payment on a home loan or to pay off the credit card. I would argue that each of these options would be a better idea than buying a new television – yes, putting the money into the pokies might be better than buying white goods or home entertainment equipment. At least you’d have a chance of winning.
What do you think happens to the money once the pokie machines are emptied? My guess is that it’s collected by an armed security service and taken to a bank where it is deposited into an account. The bankers then provide loans to businesses or individuals who in turn help stimulate the economy elsewhere. It doesn’t matter much how the money is used as eventually it will result in saving jobs which is the name of the game at this time. Goodness, even Bishop and Turnbull understand the importance of that.
Oz, one of the reasons i enjoy BB’s blogs so much is he seems to think outside the square and bring out points that you dont think of until he raises them, dont go away BB we need you.
Great to see you back Bushfire, have missed your contributions around the place
It’s a funny old world we live in these days. Who would have thought that in our lifetime a Russian leader would make statements like these?
“…the crisis was a “perfect storm” that had arisen from a world dominated by one power…”
“…extravagant financial stimulus packages of the kind agreed by Washington and London could lead those countries down a path well-worn by Moscow, while doing little to aid a global recovery.”
“There is a temptation to expand direct interference of state in economy. In the Soviet Union that became an absolute. We paid a very dear price for that…”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24978604-36418,00.html
Putin goes on to say some encouraging things about the major powers working together to sort out more than just the GFC. It will be very interesting to see if the US responds directly to these comments. The new Pres is just the man to do it in a positive, conciliatory fashion.
Steve K, being in the old and decrepit set a lot of my pals are in the same age group and i can honestly say i dont know of anyone who blew the money on the pokies, mine went on house repairs so it went into the pockets of a couple of local tradesmen, whilst my war widows pension and part of my husband’s DFRB service super gives me more than the usual pensioner, the bonus was quite welcome and bought forward repairs that eventually had to be done, a pal bought new tyres for her car and had it serviced, another put it towards the ride on shopper he’d had his eye on, my grandie bought a bedroom suite with hers so the little man could move up and leave the cot free for the next addition, while i dont doubt that some small amounts went to the pokies, the mantra being placed forward of us old dears sitting in front of a machine feeding it the government money by constantly pushing a button is erronious, in fact i couldnt visualise anything more boring.
Checking that link at #275 about ‘increased’ spending in pokies I found this in the text, not in the headline of course,
“The December, 2006 turnover was $5.267 billion, more than the December, 2008 figure.”
And what had happened in between?
Read the link for all the info which may cast doubt on the claim it was handouts money.
Judith, I have heard similar stories and I suspected all along that the pokies claim was a beat up. My point was simply that putting it in the pokies wasn’t the same as flushing it down the toilet – so long as it ended up swirling around in the economy and not the sewer the spender had done their job.
Believe me, I am no fan of the pokies. In fact, I agree with these guys (named after my second fav PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXywGjDqcAw
GP 269
The HIH commission (have you read it?) cleared Turnbull of any unlawfull conduct. He may still have a case to answer on whether or not he adequately discharged his responsiblities to clients. Conduct can be unethical or unprofessional without being illegal.
At worst, it was unethical. At best, it shows what a terrible financial advisor he was.
275:
500 million extra “turnover” equals 40 million extra dollars ‘lost’, of which a large amount will go straight back to government in gaming taxes as well as pay staff wages.
And the other $10,360,000,000 – didn’t go on pokies.
Steve K at 277
You do not understand the idea of the stimulus package. The idea of the Stimulus package is to stimulate the economy. If someone spend $1000 on a TV, the $1000 goes to pay the wage of someone at Bing Lee/Harvey Norman/Myers. It means there is less likelihood of that person losing his job. These people will also be able to continue spending (else it become an endless spiral and more and more people losses their jobs)
If these money went into the home loan, no new jobs are created and no jobs are saved.
If these money went into the pokies machine, it goes to the state government, and the Clubs, it then sits in the accounts of the clubs until they decided to spend it.
While some commentator agreed with it, a few also said it would have been a better idea to create jobs, which would be a better way to ensure the financial chun continues
Which they do almost instantly? I don’t think you grasp how the economy actually works.
How do you create jobs? The jobs factory? No, you spend.
dovif, have you thought what pays the staff at the hotels, the kitchen people as pokie players usually go for a cheap meal, then theres the bar staff and the gaming room staff and what about the cleaners? all rely on the money coming in for their wages, then you can go one further, what about the food suppliers for those meals and the drink suppliers, then theres the truckies who deliver it all, even further again to the fuel suppliers for those trucks and mechanics to service them, you could go on and on all the way down the chain, the food growers etc, etc, when you look at it that way the money put in the machines still keep a lot of people in jobs.
Every country in the world is going ahead with stimulus packages, It wasn’t SOME economists that agree with it it is MOST and every govt in the world! Seems Talcum and the Fib cheer squad are the only ones that disagree.
Oz, I think dovif believes that money in the accounts of club owners resides in a steel box within the bank’s chamber (with the club’s name engraved on the lid) to be opened only when the owner wants to add to or remove from the box.
Turnbull cant take a trick, his tax cut idea gets the raspberry.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24978648-5005962,00.html
Dubbs i agree, we should be nuclear powered by 2050 if not long before and we wont need nuclear weapons but still having the option is handy but so long as we can count of America we wouldnt really need an independent deterrent although we nearly did obtain nuclear weapons in the 50s/60s…
PNG and the Solomons have told us that we cannot afford to ignore them and other brittle nation states on the Pacific rim, Australia needs to play a far more active role in the South Pacific…
Vera it doesnt matter what stimulus package Rudd and Co bring out we most likely will go into recession this year and that is something that is just about inevitable…Rudd and Co are bringing out stimulus packages every second quarter to try and stop 2 quarters of negative growth to avoid calling it a recession but if NSW is already in recession and most of the Western World is then i hardly think we can avoid going into it this year.
It’s not all doom and gloom Bushfire Bill.
Interest rates are still going down and if these polls are anything to go by folks are satisfied with how Rudd and co are handling things. Seems like no one’s taking any notice of those so called “political” and “economic genious journalists” They are just peeing in the wind.
While the IMF outlook is gloomy they do expect things to pick up again next year. So there is a silver lining in there somewhere.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/an-extra-1000-in-pockets/2009/01/28/1232818532085.html
Wrong again Glen, no recession in NSW. last 2 quarters were positive growth.
Vera havent you understood that that was only achieved through handouts and nothing else? NSW is in recession but the Rudd Government is keeping it and the country barely afloat by handouts just to avoid calling a recession…
I want to know how much they’ve put this country in debt trying to spend their way out of a problem with little regard for future consequences.
Just can’t accept the truth can you Glen. It’s pointless talking to you. Anyway have a nice day
but do me a favour and pester someone else. I’m all outa Aeroguard!
Vera if you arent even interested debating the issue as to whether Rudd is trying to avoid a recession by giving out handouts at the end of 2 quarters it seems you are avoiding the point
Glen, simply saying NSW is in recession does not make it so
Glen, I’m not surprised that Vera has something better to do than to try and fix a broken record. I’ve tried and it’s not possible.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/nsw-in-recession/2009/01/18/1232213448316.html
“NSW is already in recession, and the rest of Australia is hot on its heels…”
Nuff said
Hurray!
Stephen Harper’s Tories will survive a vote of confidence in the Canadian House of Commons because the Liberal Party has buckled lol!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090128.wPOLbudget0128/BNStory/politics/home
“Tories put on probation; coalition breaks up
To Layton’s chagrin, Ignatieff says he is prepared to ’swallow hard’ and support budget so long as Harper releases regular economic status reports”
Sweet!
“NSW is already in recession, and the rest of Australia is hot on its heels…”
You conveniently missed the rest of the line Glen:
“a new forecast to be published today says”
Come back when you have some real evidence lol
Glen,
It’s good to see your ideological soulmate spouting the Lib lines regarding the GFC.
Vladamir, Malcolm and Glen…… “The three amoeba”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24978604-36418,00.html
Dario that forecast is evidence…
Hahahahahahahaha
Glen – “evidence” is observable reality actually measured.
Forecasts are estimates of what observable reality might say, at some future period, once we actually measure it.
“Did you witness the murder of that man”?
“No your honour, but I do believe that I will in the future!”
Possum the mere fact that forecasts are pointing to a recession for Australia is evidence that the economy is in bad shape or we wouldnt be having such forecasts…
Yes, well Glen – that’s pointing out the bleedingly obvious.
But it’s still not evidence – that will come later.
Vera, i’ve given Ron permission to forward you some emails i hope you dont mind.
Steve K, when i was a little girl going to church with my parents there was a hymm they sang, the opening words were “open my eyes that i may see” now why is it every time i see one of those blinkered right wing blogs it goes through my mind and i start humming it?
gee i do luv being able to make blinkies, though i’ll have to practice the frowning ones lol.
But how is that evidence that NSW is in recession?
Come on Glen, just admit you were wRONg
To be fair to Glen the bit about NSW being in recession is not a forecast – that is a current reality. WA is probably close too. The rest of the country isn’t, but the forecast for it to go into recession is now almost certain to be true IMO.
The solution now is to move to job stimulii. As an aside if there are any policy people reading, for infrastructure, could I also encourage them to consider higher maintenance spending. Not only is it labor-intensive but it has tangible benefits. Many of the rail closures in Adelaide and Melbourne yesterday were due in part to past lack of track maintenance spending, especially not converting to concrete sleepered track. There is no sexy ribbon cutting ceremony for politicans to appear at, but maintenance of existing infrastructure is at least as important as building new stuff. Just ask the people of Minneapolis.
As i have repeated many times, like a parrot:
1. Why we are not yet in recession
2. Why we are not yet in deficit
3. So what is wrong with the Rudd Govt?
It is interesting to see that IMF recommends for Australia a $35B deficit for the near term. I want our own recession and deficit. I am sick and tired of watching other countries trumpeting how big their recession and deficit are. I want the recession and deficit that we had to have. PJK, where are you when we need you?
So Ruddster, hurry up so we can put “amoeba” like Glen & Allbull in their cytoplastic place.
Dario, touche, you got the right spirit.
Dario do you think forecasts are not based on existing evidence available???
If they point to a recession then that is evidence we are heading for one.
I’m not wrong.
Socrates agreed, infrastructure has been neglected for too long and now is the perfect time to start upgrading, bugga the aversion to deficits, when you buy a house or new car it’s usually with a morgage you can whittle down later as your money comes in, so thats what the governments have to do, spend now pay it up later a bit at a time.
Judith I would like to get your emails you say Ron will forward but I don’t think he has my email address. Or am I misunderstanding what you said?
Glen, what do you believe is the success rate of economic forecasting in the last year?
I see you changed your tune too. Already back pedalling lol
Ron would probably have misspelled it anyway…
Dario it’s not misspelling it’s Ronlish
sorry i had the impression he had it and sent him a message to forward them, if you’d like to ask William fot my email addy i’ll send them to you, Ron seems to think you might be interested, it’s up to you
Rann has got the right idea.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24979244-5006301,00.html
Judith I tried sending William an email asking him to give you my email address. Hope it works!
Oz and Steven K
Do you know how club works, do you know how much money some of the larges clubs in NSW have in the bank, well it is in excess of 8 figures, I know because I used to audit them
So unless you know how they work, please do not make a fool of yourselves.
What happenss with clubs are they get membership fees normally at the start of the year, the will also get revenue from food and pokies, these has to pay the expense of the club for the whole year. So money sits in the bank/term deposits for the whole year until they are spend, or are required to be paid back as loan repayments.
That is why clubs are not an ideal source of economic churn (slightly better than government) because it takes them so long to spend money (ie they will also keep some reserved)
While if the government employed people, most of us spend the money within the month we received them, that is a much quicker churn and creats more jobs than if a money went into a pokies
So unless you two know what you are talking about please stop posting
LOL
dovif, how DARE you tell anyone not to post here, thats William’s perogative, what cheek!!!
we have only your word your an auditor, if so your spelling and diction’s dreadful, i left school in grade 7 and i think your up to par with my ability, i just rang a friend who runs a large club and put your allegations to her, she just about fell off the chair laughing, of course they make a profit on pokies but a lot after tax gets poured into upgrading facilities and wages, they make a loss on the cheap meals provided and the pokies subsidises that, anyway it’s obviously no good pointing these things out to you because you dont want to debate you just want to acclaim yourself Right.
anyone can hide behind a nick here on line and claim to be whoever or whatever they want to be, well dovif i cant, i use my right name and i’m too well known in my home town to hide behind anything or tell whoppers about myself.
hahahahahahahaha
Poor Tabcorp they did not get any money in the great pokie binge.
“Revenues from electronic gaming machines were down marginally…”
http://business.theage.com.au/business/tabcorp–profit-down-shares-in-trading-halt-20090129-7s9e.html
So in other words, they spend money throughout the year.
gosh ruawake, my heart’s bleeding for them.
i’ve been longing to try the crying smiley out, blame Vera for teaching me how.
China claims it’s economy is moving from winter into spring. Dunno if he’s referring to the Kondratieff wave cycle with that or if it’s just an allegory.
And they’re blaming the US, as are the Russians.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24979251-643,00.html
327 – good on you Judith, a complete demolition of dovif’s argument.
Well the real point about about the Daily Terrorgraph article about pokies and govt. handout has been missed. And people have been discussing a mirage as if solid.
There was no increase in pokie use because of the handout.
December 2006 was more than Dec 2008 [that embrassing fact is hidden in the text and contradicts the thrust of the headline].
Did the handout , in ‘08, cause the higher pokie revenue 2 years prior?
fredex, as ive asserted all along, most journos wont spoil a good story with the truth, believe me i’ve been in a position to know all too well.
Judith,
Remember that auditors are just accountants with out the wit and charm. Their only useful skill is to make 1 + 1 equal whatever you want it to.
“The auditors have just left, sir.”
“Did they check the books?”
“Very thoroughly.”
“What did they say?”
“They want 15% to keep quiet.”
I also seem to remember McCain also uttered those immortal words: “The fundamentals of our economy are sound”.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-01/28/content_7430274.htm
It is true that the Great Satan has always been good at pointing the finger at others, yet refuses to admit its own errors. The new Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, must have spent too much time at Wall St winter accusing China was “manipulating” its currency. This guy is cutting off the hands that feed him. He should be grateful that the World, in particular the Asians, are still relying on the $USD as their reserve currency. If not, the US economy will be fffffed. He should be sent to Siberia to feel what the spring is like over there, let alone winter. Obama should pull him just as he pulled Biden in for making a joke over the Chief Justice Roberts.
Just as well that Hillary Clinton is now in charge of the FA and she calls for:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/01/28/america/NA-US-China.php
In Hillary we trust.
Newton’s Laws of Economics
1. For every economist, there is equal and opposite economist.
2. Both of them are wrong.
Nice
Look what happens when the Libs get into power. Won’t Julie Bishop be pleased to see her home state have their own version of Workchoices
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/wa-to-reject-new-federal-ir-system-20090129-7ssk.html
Judith have a go with these (F)
One for Ron and Finns (ip)
And GG (&)
http://www.muller-godschalk.com/msn60.html
Sorry Judith they don’t work, bummer!
Oh how sad.
“TABCORP, the gaming group behind Jupiters and Star City casinos, has revealed this morning that a lone high roller has run off on an $11.5 million debt to the company…
…in this case the casino cashed a cheque for $11.5 million, which simply bounced. ”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24979417-5013408,00.html
Vultures.
Amigo Vera, in my business ip stands for intellectual properties. how appropriate. TQ. btw, have you been emailing Amigo Ronnie? He’s been channeling a bit of ip lately.
Finns (ip) was supposed to show a little picture of an island.
Nope ain’t been emailing Ronnie, can’t haven’t got his address
WA cannot reject the new Federal IR system, remember the High Court, Corporations Powers of the Constitution and all that good stuff?
Sorry Mr Buswell WA does not have to sign up to anything, it can be imposed on your state – Howard et al proved it.
Vera, i’m a luddite so maybe it’s just as well they dont work lol.
gosh i luv you guys lol, i’ll never think of auditors the same way.
Vera, somehow with things going downhill and WA maybe going into recession maybe a few voters there might just be regretting the change in their government.
VERA
Confession time I made a boo, again
What happened is I get a email from William out of th blue , saying a Judy wants her email address sent to me , so I replys
And its Judith Barnes who writes back giving all this info & links from adreadful personel case her & other SA familys been affected by for years
You see prevous nite Vera , I’d put my foot in it (again) in a blog to Judith in reply to her saying she had big personal issues , and me saying sorry to hear about that , blah blah and if PB bologgers can help lets us all know .,…I’d put my big foot in it , NOT knowing it had been big SA news for years (so Judith on her own bats desided to email me to tell me all about it with SA news links etc)
So then I read it all and then I wrotten back to Judith to say keeps your chin up etc Now I should hav stopped there But no , not without putting nother big foot in…so I also says to Judith she should quote “keep you in mind for possible future chats” as I say you good hart friend Then today Judith mentiond this my coment in a post today Sorry dob you in , so blog-sphere (very expensive) roses to you in mail
BUT notise , I did NOT own up if I reely do hav your email address either way ! , ….that’s our ‘secret business’…a pact witnesed “Kirribilli” syle by our own PK….. (and also hell , what is etiquette when a Lady a “Judy’ you don’t even know writes ? …maybe a ‘gentleman’ does ignore Vera , but then no one has ever called me a gentleman
Buswell is an idiot
Ron you’re a worry sometimes but we luv you anyway
make that “secret amigo bussiness”
I just love this.
John Thain of Merrill Lynch was to chair a session on “The future of Banks” at the Davos economic Summit. The session was cancelled because John Thain has no future as he was sacked by Bank of America this week:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/27/john-thain-subpoenaed-over-bonuses
And the Banks also have no future because they all have been nationalised.
In the Governments we trust.
Amigo, are you trying to steal the crown from Diog?
Ron, calm down mate it’s fine, Vera has my email addy now, she couldnt be offended at the glowing reference you gave her, besides maybe one day in the future i’m going to help her feed the possums, cheers Judy.
Judith WA workers might also regret voting the Libs in if they get all their rights taken off them and are forced onto individual contracts. This sentence from Sniffer says it all really
And as unemployment grows and more people are desperate for work the bosses will be given a free reign by the Libs to pay a pittance and treat workers how they see fit.
Is the same going to happen in NSW as WA if the ALP gov gets defeated next election?
People should be very careful how they vote.
somehow i wouldnt be a WA voter right now, i have visions of them in a slave line being lashed to work—weeeel maybe thats my over active imagination at work, any way i hope that Rudd can overrule them, at least Howard’s stomping on the states rights will come in handy.
You misspelt “sweet” as t-h-e.
The IMFs chief economist says on AM.
“OLIVIER BLANCHARD: The key here is to design packages which provide maximum boost to demand very soon. That tends to argue in the current context for measures focused on spending rather than taxes. Measures focused on taxes tend to have less effect in the short run than measures which increase spending.”
But unfortunately Turnbull had sided with an American Guru (equal but opposite) who says Tax cuts good.
He backed the wrong horse – but will not admit it. Now the IMF has it wrong. Lets add that to the RBA, Treasury, ACCC. I wonder if it will dawn on Malcolm that he is the one that is wrong?
Dec 30, 2008 – 1:08:08 PM
Olivier Blanchard, IMF Economic Counsellor/Chief Economist
“The IMF (International Monetary Fund) said on Monday that tax cuts in response to global slowdown should favour spenders not savers and it called for big spending measures.
Across-the-board tax cuts or bail-outs of embattled industries such as the motor sector are likely to waste government money while doing little to stimulate the global economy, the IMF warned.”
But Malcolm Turnbull says ” Mr Swan is ignoring that the IMF supported tax cuts just a week ago.”
Ooops No Mr Turnbull they did not – they have been entirely consistent. Unlike you.
For all those too sweltered by the heat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MLbk7UeWfI&feature=PlayList&p=71A7040CAE44332A&playnext=1&index=3
GG
Yep its hot got the ceiling fans on today – Only had to use the air-con for 8 days this summer.
Qld perfect one day – perfect the next. Thats why the new census report shows a 133% increase in dwellings in SW Qld since the last census.
Ooops SE Qld.
bluddy hell ruawake, come over here and find out what hot is, no need to fire up the barbie, just use the cement as a cooktop.
And here in Vic Judith. You South Aussies have to share everything even your bloody hot weather.
Yes Gary us Melbournians get everything SA gets a day later and 2 days after WA grrrr…stupid global warming jj…
Still im still glad i bought my new TV instead of an air-con…despite being bloody hot.
on the ch9 news Turnbull said IMF supported his idea of tax cuts and Swan was wrong, laurie Oakes immediately said Turnbull was wrong and IMF supported Swans policies, Turnbull’s a nutter if he keeps this up.
I hope you Victorians are giving Bolt hell about the record heatwave. Every day it rains he says it’s proof global warming isn’t happening.
Did anyone see the Today Tonight tonight going over the old argument about Rudd going overseas so much. They threw everything but the kitchen sink at him as to why he shouldn’t be going, including what a cc hypocrite he was. They quoted figures, given by the opposition showing how much pollution he has pushed into the air. (Oh, the holes in that argument).
I got the feeling most of this “investigation” (as they called it) was done before Rudd was to go away and before he cancelled and was designed to have a go while he was overseas. They had to acknowledge at the end that he had cancelled the trip and they read out a statement from the government which talked about the GFC and the need for Rudd to travel, saying that you couldn’t just sit at home and watch CNN.
Gary, my aircon is battling being evaporative but at least though not cold it’s bearable, anyway didnt it start your way? sigh it’s all the governments fault.
Yeah Gary,
It’s so hot the trees are whistling the dogs.
Dio, the joke was that on 3AW (where a person’s job must rest on them being a CC sceptic) people were criticising those that use this heat to show that CC is real. I had to laugh.
it hasnt been on here yet Gary, i’ll make sure not to miss it, red Kerry should be back next week, i think that woman {cant remember her name} is trying to make a name for herself while Kerry’s been away, she talks over whoever she’s interviewing anyway to try and get a “gotcha” but she’s not good enough.
370 Greensborough Growler – LOL
Still while we suffer 40 degree days, US/Canada and Europe have suffered through some of the worst winters on record…i guess they cancel each other out.
No.
They’re both symptoms of the same thing. Have a read of the IPCC reports.
Oz,
Glen’s waiting for the movie to come out.
Chris Uhlman just called Malcolm Turnbull an economic “expert”.
I almost threw up.
Still if you believe half the lies Al Gore sprouted in his doco then i guess what is the point of reading more of them…
So now Turnbull and Bishop’s tax cut mantra has been blown out of the water (at least Ms Bishop mentioned company tax – Malcolm has not to the best of my knowledge) what next.
Well Malc was in Qld where the only thing the opposition can say is LNP-LNP-LNP so he has pinched this and changed it to JOBS-JOBS-JOBS.
I can’t wait for question time next week – will Ms Bishop survive?
Rua when will somebody else be Treasurer instead of Swan…the stock markets would gain 10% if they knew someone other than Swan was pulling the fiscal strings…
So Buswell has shown that the WA Liberals are determined to keep the spirit of SerfChoices alive. This confirms what I’ve heard members of the federal government say in Question Time: that the Liberal Party remains welded to industrial relations extremism. I don’t believe for a moment when they say that “WorkChoices is dead”. Fiberals.
If they are genuine about fire-at-will by the employer, then why did the Liberal Party (employer) keep Buswell on after details of his chair-sniffing and bra-strap-snapping became known? If it was any other employer he would have been dismissed for harassment and the Liberals would have supported the employer all the way, and rightly so.
Yet Buswell was not only not sacked or asked to stand down when news of the scandal broke. He actually survived a leadership spill!
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/new-stink-kicked-up-over-chair-sniffer/2008/05/06/1209839619603.html
If not chair-sniffing, just what does the Liberal Party consider a ‘WorkChoiceable’ offence when it comes to one of their own?
Glen
Someone else will be treasurer when Swan decides he has had enough or your mob win a Federal Election.
The longer he stays the sooner the latter will occur IMHO rua…
WTF?????? Was this on ABC news?
Glen
Can you tell me what a Liberal Treasurer would have done differently to Swan? Given the current circumstances?
“No merchant banker would live in poverty’.
Speaking of treasurers. Well, ex-treasurers, here’s Ross Gittins on Peter Costello:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Ross-Gittins/Will-Costellos-budget-force-Reserves-hand/2005/05/13/1115843370320.html
Al Gore has nothing to do with the IPCC. But of course, you know more than climate scientists.
Yes, lead story.
Ruawake all they would have had to have done is sound more competent and they’d be ahead of Swan….it isnt hard…but it is for Swan…
Their Bank Deposit unlimited guarantee was a joke…
Stephen Long asks a good question – Why are we all of a sudden marching to the beat of the IMF? They’ve caused more problems and bankrupted more economics than even this economic crisis will.
Cuppa, the reason he survived the spill was because no-one else was there to take the leadership at the time.
IIRC.
Surely the phrase was “Turnbull who many see as an economic expert” or “The LIberla Party hopes Turnbull’s image as an economic expert…”??
Senate estimates is on in a couple weeks. No doub tthe LNP will grill the ABC over bias. The ALP never bothers. Maybe they should…. Nah, stay above it all.
OK Glen
The Bank Deposit scheme was a “joke”. This seems to have slipped off Malcolm and Julie’s radar. So OK for the sake of discussion. But it has not caused the crisis predicted.
What next?
“Wayne Swan is arguing against tax cuts. However, economic experts (camera on Turnbull walking) disagree.” Cut to Turnbull saying “Taxcuts are stimulatory etc.” No credible economists to cite, Uhlman? Have to create a fake economic debate?
For what it’s worth:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24584219-36418,00.html
Glen the answers are easy.
Payments to pensioners?
Payments to families?
First Home Buyers?
Local Govts?
What would the rabble do differently?
tax cuts?
Bad news Glen, the IMF disagree.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24978648-36418,00.html
Now that’s a fact, not a prediction!
Yep thats about it, but Malcolm does not have the “fortitude” to say he means company tax cuts.
I guess Crosby-Textor has told him that people will not buy company tax cuts, even though it may be the correct thing to do. Ms Bishop has no problem in mentioning them, why won’t Malcolm?
I have been banging on about this for a few days – your mob wants to reduce company tax but Malcolm does not have the chestnuts to say so.
ruawake,
I think you’re thinking of Julie Bishop not Malcolm with that “chestnut” sledge.
Back from the hols and what happens? Things are warming up already.
Ms Bishop said:
“Everything should be on the table — personal income tax and business taxes.”
Can anyone find Mr Turnbull saying anything similar regarding business taxes? I doubt it.
Geez Oz… that’s slanted reporting 101…
use the visual to go with the words. The words themselves imply nothing, the visual says nothing, but together…
no doubt Uhlmann would say it was unintentional…
GG, yes, i have been thinking about Julie Bishop lately.
Sorry guys and gals I’m confused.
Ms Bishop has a chest but some say no nuts.
Mr Turnbull, some say he has no nuts, but he has more front than Myers.
Please explain.
Tax cuts?? Tax cuts??
Is this the Lib answer to every issue?
Are tax cuts the answer to CC, infrastructure, employment, social services, education, etc, etc?
The day that the Libs develop develop some policies beyond “tax cuts” is the day they might have a chance of being returned to Government.
Rua, no, i have not been thinking about Ms. Bishop’s chest or nuts. I have been thinking about her because I haven’t seen or heard from/about her for a little while. Just wondering whether she has melted in the heat.
Winston
Look at most of Mr Costello’s speeches in parliament – Tax Cuts in 2007,2006,2005,2004,2003 etc, etc. While Govt revenue from PAYG tax increased year after year.
The con worked for the best part of a decade, why change in opposition?
Ms Bishop has been in the USA blaming Mr Swan for the impending cut in interest rates. Given that it is freezing there, maybe she is being thawed out before the spit roast next tuesday.
Instead of tax cuts it should be tax increases, and for the people who afford to pay more the rich.
As unemployment rises their is significant risk that the homeless will increase due to very high rents people are paying.
Time to increase taxes to help the least well off. But will the government do it, i doubt it. It is to busy handing out money to private schools for new computers to people who do not need them, sorry Julia Gillard has joined the ranks of her colleagues another useless hack.
Finn dont stir the pot, it’s been peaceful without her maniac hypnotic stare and snap flourishing of papers, hmm Bishop’s missed her vocation, they’re the exact tools i’ve seen my lawyer pal use in court.
rua @ 408.
Quite right – a one trick pony.
BTW I’ve had to extend my prediction for a Qld election to March. Just thought you’d like to know.
This time next month you can extend it to April, Winston.
Winston
The Qld election will be in Sept. By which time the LNP-LNP-LNP will be technically bankrupt.
vera
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 at 5:31 pm | Permalink
#351
“Ron you’re a worry sometimes but we luv you anyway”
thanks Vera , I can be quite sinful at times….wel truthful even quite sinful regalarly as well , and hope those xx roses arrived as cost th earth
Crikey today has some leadership talk regarding the LNP. Apparently some in the party aren’t happy with Springborg’s strategy and are thinking of replacing him with some block called “Seeney”.
And Tasmania has recorded its highest temperature EVER.
41.5 degrees.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/29/2477864.htm?section=justin
“Springborg’s strategy ”
pray tell , what is it……..perhaps I’v not been concentratig enough on his words
.
Tassie 412.5 C so ? and it rains in Sydney says Andrew Bolt so CC is disproven , but these things can be separate seaonal issues or once/twice offs , whereas CC is proven scientific trends
The German unemployment rate is up to 8.3% As Finns would say, what’s wrong with Rudd, how come we’re lagging behind.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/german-jobless-rate-jumps-to-35-mln-20090129-7t3a.html
Ron thank you, the roses they were a bit wilted when they got here but a good soak in a bucket of cold water spruced them up. (and then I got in the bucket and spruced myself up too
)
Tassie has hit 41deg!!!!!, last time i was over there we froze and had to go buy thick jackets, that was in march, they never told us global warming was going this far, they said it would go up a couple of degrees.
Vera , you ar unbelievable
after I bought thems roses , he said he was a Lib , I should hav known better
Now Vera , please read this and see if you can work out why Libs confidence is “boosted” !
oz on latst Newspoll:
“While Mr Rudd remains the preferred leader on the question of who would make a better prime minister by 60 per cent of those surveyed, Mr Turnbull’s level of support has INCREASED from 19 per cent in the previous survey UP TO 22 per cent now.
This is his strongest result since late November, and will BOOST confidence in the Coalition ranks after rumblings late last year”
Ron thats nearly as good as Shanahan’s “the gap in narrowing Howard is back in the race” before the last election, i believe the poll movement was 1% at the time, it settled back at the next poll
Lordy that’s one mighty big BOOST Malcolm got, a whopping 3%. Kev’ll be starting to panic now.
And Ron I don’t think “Confidence” and “Coalition” is allowed to be used in the same sentence
watch Malcolm try to make himself relevant this weekend, i think it’ll be when newspoll does it’s fortnightly ringaround.
vera
Posted Thursday, January 29, 2009 at 11:07 pm | Permalink
“And Ron I don’t think “Confidence” and “Coalition” is allowed to be used in the same sentence”
Thats true Vera , but am always looking left fields for a positbve….and seeing Libs admit to confidence boost from Malcolm’s 19% to 22% PPM , i tink hell there confidense is reely so low , its sort of a negative confidence when you hav no confidense …so now that oz commetn has NOT made me ilhappy at all ….it makes me feel now positive Labor confidence so thanks oz newspaper
On ABC radio news tonight I heard Malcolm Turnbull claim that Labor wouldnt accede to his wishes for a tax cut because “they are the party of high taxes”. As taxes are lower now than when he was in govt, how can he justify his claim? As it is well known that taxes are lower now than a year ago, how can the ABC allow him to make such a claim unchallenged? What skill levels are required nowadays in order to work in the sheltered workshop that is ABC News?
Michael, Malcolm is like a kid in a mud puddle, he splashes it in all directions and hopes to heaven some of it’ll stick, who was interviewing him? most serious journos are starting to denounce his tax cut ideology so he’s flailing madly about, in the ch9 news tonight he was waffling on and Laurie Oakes came right out and said he was wrong, all depends who it was on 2 but the main ones selling Malcolm’s crap are the Newsltd mob and even Rupert said today Swan was doing the right thing.
I would like to see the proof of this. You’d think this bloke being on the RBA board would supply it. No-one’s game to play around with the GST, up or down. Imagine the outcry if the government lowered it then raised it again. You know what Malcolm would say.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/call-to-slash-gst-in-half-20090129-7t2j.html
apropos the other nites comments
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2097546/posts?page=94
““Let us set aside for a moment the fact that the Obamassiah is unqualified, that he consorts with known terrorists, that he is the most Liberal candidate ever to win his party’s nomination for President. No, let’s concentrate on his supporters since without them, he’d still be organizing communities in Chicago.
His supporters attempt to stifle free speech by inundating phone lines whenever a radio talk show host attempts to discuss His Oiliness in other than laudatory terms. ”
WB
hopes this helps you to have a better worldview and stops you using infantile insults towards myself.
Also I sincerely hope you can see beyond your “whitebread’ view of how we treat our indigenies ,even the ones who are not full blood.
Gary, the minute they start quoting unnames sources i usually stop reading, you can write any wild story you want with unnamed sources and then another news outlet will get on the bandwagon and start writing it as fact, how many times have we seen that? you know and i know the GST will be left strictly alone, to fiddle with it would be political suicide and lets face it Rudd’s not the self destructive type.
Gusface,
It’s nice that you’ve had the resilience to come back after being shamed over on LP. You can run anywhere you like, but criticisng Obama is not a thought crime.
Here’s the link.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/29/i-wont-add-my-condemn-to-your-condemn-xxxiii/#comment-620982
#428
“I would like to see the proof of this.”
Do not need it , its obvous December stimili went to ’spenders’ only , so they spent….as Rudd wanted them to do , and giving short term ‘kick’ (as govt planned to halt GFC efects already then hurting econamy0
As for your GST referense link, GST cuts ar as bad as tax cuts…too slow in having an efect and unfairly distributiv and also not to just ’spenders’ these econamic rationolists philosophys days finished in Wall St ruins Centrists Labor Keynes’s thoughts now finaly back in charge , about time
Sorry, Judith, but I was so gobsmacked by the inanity of the article that I didnt note the imbecile who was the purported “reporter”. I couldnt even say if it was a male or female.
You are right about the GST cut, it will never happen. In any case, does a percent or so cut on the price of a toaster or kettle tempt you to go out and buy? I only buy anything when I really need it, not when it is a dollar or so cheaper than it was last week. We need remedial work on our infrastructure in the short (and long) term, and then long term we need new infrastructure projects. The very existence of the Pacific Highway in its current state is an indictment of all governments state and federal of the last 25 years. Every state has a similar horror story. Howards wasting of money on the Alice to Darwin rail rort is a disgrace.
GG
Good to see that as usual you spread disinformation
PS got the cojones to answer ny Q’s at LP
nah thats right ,they havent dropped yet LOL
Gusface: Since when was Free Republic the KKK site? Even if it was, the fact that one commenter among thousands on the site has seen fit to call Obama “oily” – defined by Dictionary.com as “smooth or unctuous, as in manner or speech” – would prove nothing at all. It’s also a complete mystery to me why you’re addressing my “view of how we treat our indigenies, even the ones who are not full blood”.
Furthermore, the comment you compared to the KKK was this one: “Obama did not win because he was black and if he’d lost it would nott hav been becasue he was black , times favourd a Democrat”.
WB
simply put “oiliness” is unacceptable to anyone , or for that matter any attempt to denigrate Obi’s win by lines such as you quoted @ 436is unacceptable.
re the aborigine quote,I was wondering if you believed it “nice’ to say to one of our people that obi was “oiliness”
If you cannot see the outrage then unfortunately the tag of ‘whitebread” fits.
I think you’ve been spending too long out in the sun, Gusface.
728
Gusface
Posted Monday, January 26, 2009 at 5:47 pm | Permalink
“….ps (to WB) If you get a chance go to the KKK site and surprise surprise, you will find an exact copy of the quote I took exception too”
William’s #436 abov supplied th actual quote you objectd to (from your own #671 post , where you also implied my KKK referensing)
About time Gusgace you showed us all th KKK website link showing this “an exact copy of th quote “ you claim to hav
.
BTW , notwithstanding you slectively extracted th quote quite out of context of a whole para explainig Obana’s win anyway
.
Now if you can not supply that exact quote link , sugest blogers take no notise of any future Gusface coments on this subject …seeing they’d be red herringly simply avoiding suplying that ‘exact quote’ , and so therefore th innuendo will be shown to be false
Whilst smeering me with KKK may convinse some seeing throwing innuendo mud always leaves some effect on some posters , I’m still here & some will take no notice reely…. same thing as I’ve said same thing to numerous posters who criticise eduction lingos , but today is Friday and enjoy it there’ll never be another 30/1/09 as Gusface you simply made a blue
Whilst I do not wish to ofend William in carrying on someting thats a non event , I feel on re- consideraton that my coments and Williams to Gusface , do not adequately rebut gusface’s coments because I’ve now notised Gusface did in ffact muddy waters tonite , to confuse posters unaware of factual sequenses
1/ I made a post #670 th other nite explaining Obama’s win …being in part Bush factor and GFC and times favourd Democrats a change , but it needed a clever campaign and articulating , and Obama did both
Later in same para I said as per Williams #436 quote :
“Obama did not win because he was black and if he’d lost it would nott hav been becasue he was black , times favourd a Democrat”.
(NB/ th term “Oiliness” was NOT used at all
2/ Gusface in reply in #671 falsely claimed this abov quote was
“Geez ron if I didnt know better,I would have thought that line was from the KKK’
3/ I repled to Gusface #674 that had a woman , Hillary been th Nominee , my same politcal assesment principals and caveats wuld still apply
4/ Gusface out of blue th next day , still smarting maybe , posts #728 to WB
“ps (to WB) If you get a chance go to the KKK site and surprise surprise, you will find an exact copy of the quote I took exception too”
5/ WB per his #436 gav Gusface opportunity to supply this KKK quote
Gusface did not take up WB’s invitaton He can not because it does not exist
So Gusface made a false KKK innuendo that he can not bak up as it is false
6/ Gusface instead of remainig silent , seeing a retraction by Gusface wasn’t on his agenda , Gusface tonite then tried to muddy red herring waters with a quote from “Free Republic” (whoever th hell they ar) where a single blogger used a term ‘oiliness”
But th term “oiliness” was NEVER in my #670 blog to which Gusface objected to at all Instead Gusface extracted above ‘times favourd a Democrat’ etc quote and implied THAT quote came from my KKK referensing , and later told WB an exact copy of THAT quote was in a KKK Site…nothing to do with term ‘oiliness”
So tonite , Gusface’s red hering switch from th quote he claimed was KKK referensing to now all of a sudden convenentley th term ‘oiliness’ (where he has a single link of) , is quite misleading & intanded to confuse posters here
.
ps/ Fact that i hav indeed used oiliness” regarding Obama at other times (and will continue to do so) is irelevant to Gusfgace’s falsely claiming my abov quote was KKK referensing , a slur once made does/will influense some posters…so beit
.
BTW , WB has quite adequateley defined ‘oiliness’ as derititve in his #435 , although its ‘conversion’ from what Vera corectly & kindly calls ‘ronlish’ owes to aChicago famous castrol add “linked” to “smooth nuancing” speech , a skill oiliness is an expert in ie what is said may not be what is actualy said/promised, ….and then he delivers same in probaley (as I’ve said before) as th best orotorial speeker in US political history , two exceptional skills …a point made to GB and others who don’t like , so beit also , its there problam with dialec educatons
As to some looney in a US Site I’ve never heard of (why wuld anyone go to a crazies site anyway Gusface) how these crazies cloned a patanted ronlish , can I just hope & prays they’re milionaires as there’s no point suing poor broke patents abusers
US future rest with he and US Congress , only a moron wuld not hope for positive outcomes , as do I but with cautions….not predictons , only nostradomas
did that
Did I miss something or did the HowRudd convergence announce a timely $10m project to enquire into what to do about all the extra people who are going to die as a result of CC by 2030? If so, bit by bit, we are starting to get to the nitty gritty.
Climate change kills people.
If I have the details right, this is a sensible climate change adaptation step (albeit with a hopelessly limited TOR)and money far better spent than on a useless solo 5% ETS.
Anyway, if the researchers are really agile they might be able to set up some relevant case studies around South-eastern Australia right about now. (The death toll from a single over-hot summer in Europe a few years ago was reckoned to be about 25,000.)
Judith @ 427
‘like a kid in a mud puddle’
lol. I like it.
Glen @ some distant post or other…
Did you really write that clean coal is a ‘joke’?
Oz @ 417
This sort of stuff can ruin a good day’s fly fishing.
William, if it is not allowed to call JWH a r*dent, Rudd Kr*dd but it is ok to Obama oilyness, you are sending out the clear message that insulting nicknames are only allowed where you do not like certain political personalities. Not what I would call an impartial mesage.
Tom.
Gusface,
Since Obama is the most liberal POTUS ever elected, i will repeat the saying of that famous Liberal:
“I will decide who I criticise and the circumstances in which I criticise.”
JF Kennedy was never criticised when he was a POTUS because he was regarded as lilly-white. We now know what he was really up to.
Gusface
Not sure what all the fuss and feathers is about.
Thankfully, OBama is very different from Bush. (Come to think about it, what really strange people that Bush chap and his little lickspittle were! They were third-rate character actors, up to their knees in blood and peace medals, in a real-life tragi-comic opera of torture, war, economic ruin and egoistic self-delusion. How did they manage to seem so normal for so long?)
I am sceptical about Obama (not nastily, but as in the proof is in the pudding sort of way), and am not sure how he will measure up, but I will be very pleased if he manages:
1. not to start any new wars
2. to get out of some old ones
3. to develop a functional working relationship between the West and about 1 billion muslims
4. to set some frameworks in place to put the robber barons and corporate pirates into Gitmo (why close it when it could really do some good?) while simultaneously encouraging enterprise
5. to get an equitable resolution to Palestine/Israel
6. to get the US economy kick-started, avoid a complete collapse of the US dollar and avoid runaway inflation…
7. set in place a global CC response that is adequate to the task.
All in all, if Obama goes even part way to achieving any of these he will be light years ahead of Bush whose achievements were more or less the opposite for all seven items. (Not forgetting the cameo support appearances on the world stage by his little lickspittle.)
Therefore, from my perspective, cut Obama a bit of slack and cross your fingers. For better or worse, during what will probably the most critical decision point for a century or so, he is the only game in town.
… and another thing…
… since when has the Business Council Of Australia been a bunch of hippie lefties? Calling for a $35 billion deficit? They’ll be the first ones to condemn Rudd when it happens. Any deficit that comes about will have been either “too late”, “too little”, “too much”, “wrongly targeted” or “out of step with international trends”.
Secondly, this “we’re already in recession” business: a recession is two quarters of negative growth. So far we haven’t even had one. What’s with all the “experts” trying to outdo each other announcing a recession? Recession futures? I suppose somewhere in some deep dark think tank recession futures exist, but why do the misery gutsers spruiking them get the prime gig on our radio and TV news? A good proportion of a recession can be put down to gloom. There’s plenty of it about, for no good reason as far as I can see, except oneupmanship among economic commentators.
This is quite funny, 1981 Internet report
“owns home computer!” lol – classic
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5WCTn4FljUQ
Can you get good steering wheels at computer swap meets?
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/computer.asp
BB, i’ve missed your thoughtful contributions and as usual that one was spot on, it’s good to have you back.
BB
There are recession futures quite literally. Centrebet has a market for Oz being in a recession by the end of 2009, using 2 quarters of negative GDP seasonally adjusted. A recession is currently paying $1.29.
A 1% interest rate drop by the RBA next week is only paying $1.65.
The Ruddster confirms that the Republic has dropped as a priority.
Glen, we’re going to get you eventually but I agree with Rudd that now is not the time. The GFC takes precedence. And I don’t think Labor MPs will be “upset”.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24983014-5006301,00.html
What do you mean ONLY, Diogenes? Money for jam.
http://www.sfe.com.au/content/sfe/products/trt/targetratetracker.htm
Our good friend Rod Blagojevich has finally been kicked out.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24983408-12377,00.html
Dio, it was only going to be a second term priority anyway, i hope queen Liz lasts a while, the thought of king Charles and queen Camilla gives me the shudders, it’s time we grew up and left the nest.
JB
Camilla can’t be Queen.
steve
You could bet on 0.75%, 0.5%, 0.25% or more than 1% so I was a bit surprised they were so sure it would be exactly 1%.
Tom, nicknames are not banned across the board. “Rodent” and “Krudd” have been cracked down upon because they were especially tiresome and overused. “His oiliness” might well become so, and possibly already has – I can’t say I had ever noticed it being used before. It was not being used in the particular circumstance which provoked Gusface’s offensive KKK references.
Dio, oh yes she can, they removed all blocks to that when she married Charles.
Turnbull is still banging on about his tax cuts and Harvey Norman after all the whining the stimulus package didnt work and they had to close some stores are up on sales a year ago.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24983357-5005962,00.html
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24983504-5005962,00.html
and last but not least the economists think the rates will be slashed by 1% next week
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24983467-5005962,00.html
Actually, on closer inspection there were a few times on the thread when “oiliness” was used in terms which could, at a stretch, be typified as a nickname.
The Rainman’s been at it again, more fibs, more spruking about things he knows nothing about. Surely when he says these silly things (like Rudd doing nothing on everything and anything from GFC to CC) he must realise he’ll be shot down in flames, and people do read the papers and watch the news and read Williams blog
.
I don’t think anyone missed the $10bil stimulus and the CC 5%-10% targets.
And now he knows better than the scientists when it comes to carbon storage.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/govt-is-not-ignoring-biochar-says-burke-20090130-7tcd.html
JB
Looks like I’m wrong again. Camilla can be Queen but she is going to elect not to be called Queen, which I think is Her Majesty.
vera
Tim Flannery is very keen on biochar. You have a portable furnace which cooks organic farm waste into charcoal, which is then ploughed back into the soil. I(t doesn’t degrade and aerates the soil.
http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2008/03/tim-flannery-on-biochar-and-renewable.html
Ah, what every Dad hoped their daughter will grow up to be… Geez the monarchy has to be the dumbest thing to have been invented since the idea to have dumb things was invented.
Blagojevich is in even deeper doo doo than i thought, after his impeachment {which has just happened} is done and dusted then the big guys get a piece of him as well, boy i wouldnt be in his shoes for all the tea in China, he’s done a lot of pleaing and begging but not one vote went his way.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24983500-5006301,00.html
Diogenes I admit to not being knowledgable on the topic, it was just the fact that Malcolm is all gung-ho saying the govt are ignoring the idea (which could be a good one) when this plainly isn’t true as Burke says that biochar is one of the technologies the govt has been investigating but he also said it was untested and unproven? Just taking his word for that.
vera
They’ve been doing it in the US for a while with great effect, although it’s quite expensive. If you can get hold of Tim Flannery’s Quarterly Essay in the last edition, there’s a great essay on CC. Turnbull appears to have read the same essay.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/01/090128-dolphin-cuttlefish-meal.html
Yes, we are the clever ones. Do it everyday.
Diog, when you will ever learn. Methinks it’s time for you to visit the Knowledge Trees of Macchu Picchu.
Finns
Obi looks like offering the vacant Commerce Sec position to a Republican senator, Judd Gregg. If he accepts, the Dems will have the 60 supermajority in the Senate.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/29/judd-gregg-commerce-secre_n_162378.html
hey Finn, Dio doesnt try to intimidate me like Glen or dovif so i dont bother to argue the point when he’s wrong, i can be just as wrong as him, so theres no need for duels to the death.
Diogenes,
Here’s a blunt object on a hot day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pusSNjBd8do
Judith, as that great man like to say: “Dont you worry about that” – i am just channeling the delightful Mrs. Diog.
GG, that was excellent. I am now converted. Praise the Lord, especially i saw my cousin in the clip.
Diogenes of course eventually but you’ll win more converts depending on what type of Republic you want and how many symbols of the Commonwealth of Australia Republicans wish to destroy…
Maybe a 2nd/3rd term priority for Kev…but i will be voting No whenever they bring it up again for the simple reason that there isnt anything wrong with the system we already have which has worked well since 1901…
Glen,
Here’s bone for you too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoxDyC7y7PM
To backup BB’s comments at 448 take a squizz at this article by Michelle Grattan. The blackened opening sentence makes you feel real positive about things – not. The article itself though is worth reading IMHO.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/searching-for-a-solution-20090129-7swj.html?page=1
Michelle hasnt done a bad job in that article, she’s basically said it how it is, dunno that Malcolm would be too impressed seeing his precious tax cuts be dismissed so easily, Gary thanks for that i never saw it when i trawled the sites earlier.
Amigos
I’m off to see Neil Young this evening at the BDO. He’s been wearing a “Hippies of Obama” badge. If they’re on sale, I’ll buy a few for you.
“Hippies for Hillary” doesn’t quite have the same ring, does it. :O
Tom
#441
You share th same selective indignation as GB Th mistake you hav now made however , is to post after I clearly defined in #440 th term oiliness , and its adjective not nick name attributes BTW , I also note you did not even spell it right
It is you who has therefore deliberateley chosen to , either to ignore that definition due to your possible indesent ideas on racism and/or your over precous partisien sensititivity for your politcal man ….as reely uncritisable, not that frankness to actualy say that is shown
Either way a none too cute rather amateurish attempt to moderator at selective censorship to your selective standards …and I notise you , like GB hav th gall to never object to th numerous ‘adjectives’ added (quite corectly) to Turnbull made by posters here
And youse alleged intelectuals accuse th ‘right’ of selectiveitity , double standard indeed I shall continue to occasionally use that adjective as appropriate so deel with it
If cann’t handle rough & tumble of tough politcal debate , play tiddlewinks…..th 3 Libs here handle it …and what , some ‘left’ ar fairy floss sensitive politcaly
Dio, are you bluddy mad????? going out in that heat for a ruddy singer, there’ll be one hell of a squash, sigh well i guess we all revert to our second teenagerhood every now and again, have fun.
Diog, now i know why Caroline Kennedy withdrew and you running:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZORK6nI8kg
Ron
Far be it for me to pick you up on grammar but the word “oiliness” is, in fact, not an adjective. It is a noun. “Oily” would be an adjective, as would oleaginous or unctuous, which may be satisfactory substitutes.
Enjoy yourself, Diogenes. I saw him in Sydney. Quite awesome.
Diogenes @ 467 ta I’ll find that essay and have a squizz, never know I might learn something
With the heat wave we’re having thought I’d share this line from an email titled
“You know you’re Australian if….”
well it made me smile
The other two things I remember from the Tim Flannery essay were using the internet to engage tribal people living in PNG, Indonesia etc. They could be paid ETS funds in exchange for reforesting their lands, as Rudd’s ETS allows global exchange of carbon credits.
There was also a way of rotating herding lands into pens so the cows etc ate all the forage in that pen and then moved on to the next pen, instead of eating all the good stuff in the field and having weeds take over the field. I think it was call “Holistic farming”.
Ron, Dio is right. His Oiliness is a noun not an adjective. I don’t object at all (and have said so in the past) to the describing Obama as being oily in his presentation or whatever. It’s the contant replacement of “Obama” with “His Oiliness” I don’t like. Such name calling is unnecessary and adds nothing to the argument. If anything, for me it detracts from it because it’s at that stage where I stop reading and that applies to any stupid name calling from anyone. I stop reading when I see “Howrudd”.
You argue that I don’t complain when Malcolm is called names. I didn’t complain about your “His Oiliness” either for a long time, not until it finally got on my wick and I’m not asking it to be banned. That’s up to William. I’ve said that before too. I just deal with it in my own way and will continue to do so. I will also continue to refrain from this purile practice.
You continue to misrepresent my position on this Ron.
Imagine Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard’s head on the back of a 50 cent coin. Thats what will happen if Australia becomes a republic. Australia, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
I thought Obama is supposed to be the Man of and for the World, you know USA, Hawaii, Indonesia and Kenya. Can’t mention the “O” word, but he is slip-sliding away just the same.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/World/Story/STIStory_332170.html
Bree, imagine Charles’s bald head or Camilla’s smirk {shudder} now nobody should have that inflicted on them.
489 – Obama must be doing a good job if this stretching of the point is any indication.
Finns
He was elected President of the US. He is acting in the US’s best interests. That’s what his job is.
Actually, it’s a terrible policy and plenty of economists and trade analysts are arguing that it’s harmful to US interests. If the US condones protectionist trade policies and then other countries around the world also constrain themselves to “Buy China” “Buy India” “Buy Australia”, then the US itself is harmed.
So you Obama supporters here are quite happy for USA to ffffup the rest of World (as if it has not ffffup the rest of the World enough already) just because the precious one is on the throne.
Oz
It’s good short term policy (given the GFC) and bad long term policy.
494 – It wasn’t the policy I was commenting on, it’s was the anti Obama spin you placed on it I was referring to. To say he is slip sliding away suggests he is going back on his word. I don’t recall him promising any different.
Finns
I seem to recall Obama and Hillary having a hairy chested competition about who would be the most protectionist. Looks like the Great Man won.
And on another topic, I for one have been bitterly disappointed with the lack of progress that Special Envoy Downer has made in Cyprus. As a taxpayer funding his job, I would like an explanation of how he’s been using his time and why it has been so unproductive. If he doesn’t have a clear plan forward, I think we need to rethink our strategy and that includes leaving open the door to changes in personnel at the top.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
From Obama Website. It’s a two way street.
New Morgan out:
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2009/4354/
“Imagine Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard’s head on the back of a 50 cent coin. Thats what will happen if Australia becomes a republic. Australia, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!”
Oh come on… is that the best you can do?
Poor Malcolm
“CLAIMS by Malcolm Turnbull that the government-led $4billion commercial property rescue package will have no impact on jobs have been ridiculed by economists and the property sector.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24982366-5013871,00.html
When The Australian says you are being ridiculed – look out.
When HRH The Prince of Wales becomes King Charles III in succession to his mother, HRH The Duchess of Cornwall will indeed become Her Majesty Queen Camilla. That is the title to which she is entitled as the wife of the King. She can only be deprived of it by an Act of Parliament, and no such Act has been passed. She has indicated that she will choose to be known as HRH The Princess Consort, but this title will have no legal basis and it may be that when it comes to the point she and others will use her actual title. An analgous situation is the daughter of HRH The Earl of Wessex (Prince Edward), who is known by her parents’ choice as Lady Louise Windsor, although her legal title is HRH Princess Louise of Wessex.
He might choose to take another name.
I would have thought “The Princess Concubine” would be more appropriate. I will throw in the red lantern for free.
Gary Bruce , you ar misrepresenting what i said , doyuble first ie ONLY consistently pick on my single ronlish , yet claim “privately” to object to othrs Turnbull adjectives YET not consistently object T hat is selective inconsistensy
Secondley , how do you or diog know what is a noun or an adjctive anyway……my #440 definition is clear….a descriptiv of speech , and neither of you ar qualified in all englash forms i note also
thirdly this is a politcal site , and trying to turn into some ‘gentlemans club’ not only excludes th VIP ladies , but ‘pretends’ gentry eqtiquatte that has never been part of tough politcal debate , those that cann’t stand heat swivel
and fourly , for a guy like you and Tom to claim some ‘acceptable standards’ that you wish to enforse on other posters , and publicly object to a word……YET remain silent when a blogger is accused of KKK tensencys or KKK referensing and thats OK obviously seeing you did NOT object , ….bearing in mind th accusaton was made not once , not twice but three times….and on 3 diferent days ,….and on a ‘left’ site as well …. so is it KKK selectively ok if its directed at just Ron , as you were quiet
Not that i’m complainin by th way , simply pointing out youur and Tom’s inconsistensy with not just Turnbull , but KKK as well … Well i refused to be silensed on your inconsistent standards , which anyway on ronlish ar a perfect dialec, perhaps you may think again on abov and then start deeling with substanse politcal point issues
One cannot be married to one’s concubine. One has a concubine because one already has a wife. While the Princess of Wales was alive Ms Paker-Bowles was the Prince of Wales’s mistress, not his concubine.
But since the Queen could live to 100 (here’s hoping), then she could outlive Charles and hence William would become King…good luck then Republicans lol!
Latest Morgan
Same old same old!
Support for Rudd Government stable ALP (59.5%) well ahead of L-NP (40.5%)
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2009/4354/
When the Queen turns 100 in 2026, Prince William will be 44. By then he will be a typical Saxe-Coburg-Gotha male – bald, ugly, arrogant and unpopular.
He looks to have better teeth than his father and has Diana’s looks i think he’ll stay popular and if he becomes King before Charles a lot of people in Australia wouldnt mind him being our King…
If your that devoted to Royalty are you and the other fools going to emigrate to the UK if and when we become a republic,non of em are worth 2 bob
All Saxe-Coburg-Gotha males start out attractive but they age badly and soon become arrogant and ugly. William is already losing his hair – he’ll be bald as an egg by the time he’s 40, as was his maternal grandfather, Earl Spencer (the hair-loss gene is matrilineal).
Surely in 20 years the demographics will have further shifted towards those favouring a republic.
Ronster
We were taught grammar in English lessons at school. The definition of what is a noun and what is an adjective is not really a contentious point. A useful rule in future is that any word ending in -ness is going to be a noun. I trust that you have benefited from this feedback.
Ron
I endured English Grammar, Latin and Greek in my educational past, (English Public (Private) Boys School founded in 1552) if I did not know the difference between a noun and an adjective when I was seven years old I would have been caned by the English Master.
When will Kevin Rudd force Pay TV to broadcast A-PAC on free to air digital in other places than Sydney???
Don’t do it Dio!. I’ve seen him three times, once each in OZ and America(by accident, he wasn’t the headliner) and one in Portugal. He sucked every time
Glen
Your mob decided Digital Forty Four would be limited to Sydney.
New thread.
Before we go, a ruling. Barack Obama or any other politician can be described as “oily” (adjective) provided it’s not abused, but “oils” and “oiliness” (nouns) are banned under the tedious nicknames provision. KKK or Nazi jibes at other commenters are banned under all circumstances, because if there’s any substance to them the relevant commenter will themselves be banned. Much as I would like to be ideologically even-handed, “commie” can be good for a laugh so I’ll be playing that one by ear. No further discussion on these matters is permitted.