Morgan’s latest fortnightly face-to-face poll shows a one point narrowing in the two-party gap from 60-40 to 59.5-40.5. Labor is down one point on the primary vote to 50.5 per cent while the Coalition is up one to 36 per cent. Elsewhere:
• Not sure how much of this is news, but there’s a lot of good stuff on the Western Australian Electoral Commission site: veteran academic Harry Phillips’ 149-page Electoral Law in the State of Western Australia: An Overview; Isla Macphail’s 388-page Highest Privilege
and Bounden Duty: A Study of Western Australian Parliamentary Elections 1829–1901; and comprehensive survey data on various aspects of the September state election.
• AAP reports that Jennifer Huppert, a lawyer with the firm Maddocks and “long-time Labor moderate”, has been “unanimously endorsed” by Labor’s national executive to replace Evan Thornley in the Victorian upper house region of South Metropolitan. A “senior Labor source” quoted in the report says “Ms Huppert was the Premier’s pick, chosen from four women candidates selected by Federal MP Michael Danby and state Treasurer John Lenders”. The Herald Sun earlier reported that “a list of six names – four women and two men – had been submitted to the Labor Party’s national executive”, with the Left-aligned Laura Smyth named as frontrunner.
• Rick Wallace of The Australian reports that a looming split in the Right of the Victorian ALP could produce “another round of bloody winner-takes-all preselections replete with branch-stacking, brawls and backstabbing”. The next Victorian opinion poll will be interesting to observe, given the stresses the present heatwave has placed on Melbourne’s infrastructure.
• Malcolm Mackerras muses on the recent history of by-elections and upper house vacancies in the Canberra Times.
• Annual financial disclosure returns for 2007-08 can be viewed at the Australian Electoral Commission site (UPDATE: … from Monday – thanks to Ruawake for pointing that out).
614 Comments
• Annual financial disclosure returns for 2007-08 can be viewed at the Australian Electoral Commission site.
From next Monday.
The ALP *national* executive selecting the replacement to the *Victorian* upper house is a disgrace. As the Proportional Representation Society of Australia pointed out, it’s the first time since the 1850s that Victorians haven’t chosen who sits in their own parliament. It should’ve been done via count-back, or by a ballot of Victorian ALP members, or as a last resort, by Victorian hacks in the ALP.
It’s the Victorian parliament, it’s supposed to represent the people of Victoria.
William,
That 388 page tome by McPhail is a ripper. It’s just the right size to prop up the coffee table.
Why do State Parliaments need upper houses? Waste of money.
Follow Qld’s example and get rid of them.
519 William Bowe – from last thread. Just one comment from me – a fair and balanced ruling William.
I note that ‘oily’ is OK , but that my own self creatd “adjective” (o…) as clearly defined in my #440 is now banned
IF I’d added a ‘y’ at th word end after ‘ness’ to make it ‘nessy’ , some posters arguing noun vs adjective wuld look fairly foolish , but then logic was never objecton basis anyway , over- partisienship was
Ironicly banned at th same time was th word KKK , where I had been 3 times th abusee…and where no poster had previously objected to its use at all
Also ironicly , it was that very KKK Site that I’d allegedly visited , that I was smeered with as having KKK tendencies , and that Site was ALSO used as a depraved sourse for th ‘o…’word as well that finaly lead to a ban … th double rewards of smeer
Irespective completely of th above , GB Tom and othrs you got your inconsistent partisin “Obama” standards made ‘law’ on your selective tech view of my dialect , hope you ar happy now if you define that as being hapy ……a hollow ‘victory’ indeed for ‘your libertarien standards’ vs my dialec’s opposition
I’ll stick to my principals thanks , at least they ar consistant
ruawake @ 4
True. But why stop with the state upper houses? Get rid of the states and territory lower houses while you are at it. They are sandpits for the mediocre.
Ron, like I said, “oiliness” has been banned under the tedious nicknames provision. It might have happened earlier, but I hadn’t noticed until now that you (and others) were doing it. There might be a certain unpleasant irony to the fact that Gusface’s drivel helped draw my attention to the fact, but such is life I’m afraid.
While I’m here, I’m going to throw “Talcum” on to the fire as well. It’s stupid.
An interesting question arises from the Morgan poll. It relates to the juxtaposition of the ‘consumer confidence’ and ‘heading in the right direction’ polling figures with party polling figures. Both ‘consumer confidence’ and ‘heading in the right direction’ have received some attention at Poll Bludger in previous threads. In particular, Possum did some sums and came out with a significant positive relationship between consumer confidence figures and voting patterns. There has also been much qualitative discussion about the ‘heading in the right direction’ question with most of the discussion on this blog being disparaging.
In this bout of polling, there are significant downward movements in both, which the party polling does not match. The question is: ‘Will either turn out to have value in predicting a decline in Labour figures in coming polls?’
Boerwar
The way to do it is for larger – regionally focused Local Govt.
But of course the Conservatives would not support the referendum to enshrine Local Govt in the Constitution – releasing them from State Govt. control.
Twits.
I’m all for keeping as much power away from local council as possible.
I was about to ask “who’s Talcum” then I realised… bit slow tonight… Ban them all William. (though “rainmaker” surely deserves a bit of mercy due to it’s now being enshrined in Hansard)
Note the addition of Article 10 to Standing Orders.
William, many thanks for your impartiality. As to the KKK references, I agree that they were ‘unfortunate’. Ron, there is nothing wrong with my principles and neither am I arrogant enough to question another posters principals on this site. For instance, I disagree with many of the things that Glen and Generic Person state on this forumn, but that is neither reason nor excuse for me to pass judgement upon them. What makes you think you have the divine right to do so?
Tom
Scratch #13. New additions are Article 5 and Article 11.
Rua then the Libs were stupid for just making it a Sydney Channel (D44).
How can parliament and public affairs be on Pay TV anyway it ought to be free…
Glen,
The cost of free speech just went up!
Inflation strikes again…
They be good Articles William; a Bill of Rights if you will. No doubt Janet A will soon write a column about how you are a terrible judge who should leave laws up to policitians.
The wisdom of Solomon…
Glen
D44 licences will be allocated this year, then the broadcast will be available to all. But given the broadcast is owned by Foxtel and Austar its a miracle it will be free to air.
Abso-freakin-lutely.
How more unrepesentative do you want to get?
Glen
It was a result of the 20-20 summit.
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has hailed the launch of a new public affairs television network as a good move for Australia’s democracy.
Sky News, Foxtel and Austar have joined together to launch A-Span, a new public affairs television network and an initiative of the Federal Government’s 2020 Summit.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/08/2440386.htm
But of course the 20-20 summit was a talk fest with no results.
Glen – I like you, but you really do put your foot in it too often.
Or Glen, you could follow a nice right wing user pays system! (speaking as one already with foxtel)
But I agree should be public.
“How can parliament and public affairs be on Pay TV anyway it ought to be free…”
The ABC is still working on plans to have their own public affairs channel. However, making the case for funding is going to harder now there’s one that’s being provided FTA.
Glen #16
Posted Friday, January 30, 2009 at 7:49 pm
“… the Libs were stupid …”
Good on you Glen. Looks like you are starting to see the light.
“… the Libs were stupid …”
what’s with this ‘were’ business?
After the mess Alston and Coonan made with digital TV and datacasting I think that Liberal Party supporters may consider taking a low profile on the issue – instead of demanding Mr Rudd do something that could have happened in 2000.
Glen how many licences were bought in 2000 when they were first put up for sale? ZERO – well done Libs.
Rua i knew that it came out of the 2020 summit but they should have pushed for it to be free-to-air…as yet a good idea not yet followed through well atm…we’ll see…
Grog sure i could get FOXTEL but what about all the people who havent got the money for it???
Glen i agree with you on this one but it strikes me to be a fairly ‘left-wing’ argument you are making. “But what about all the people who haven’t got the money for it?” I can’t imagine a conservative making that argument all to often even though i think it is the correct one to make.
“Grog sure i could get FOXTEL but what about all the people who havent got the money for it???”
Socialised television but cut backs on public spending in health, education and transport? Nice to see where the priorities lie.
thewetmale but the point is more about access to information and trying to get the public more interested and involved in politics and the political process not the mention the educational benefits of such a tool…
thewetmale i think it has less to do with left or right issues the questions are A do we want the public to have access to such information and B will it be of a benefit to our political process…i think it will and neither lefties or conservatives could argue against that…
Glen
Makes sense to me especially your first paragraph. Out of interest how far do you go, if you were to change “access to information” to “access to services” (such as public health, transport, education?) How do you define ‘benefit to our political process/society’.
You know what else has an educational benefit? Schools!
I’m being mean.
As far as i am concerned too many young people know nothing about politics or the political process and decide how to vote based on trivial things…this has a lot to do with education….
Oz im saying the channel has benefits for Students learning politics and legal studies…
I know, I’m just being annoying. I apologise.
I reckon a lot of older people too.
Yes Oz
That’s the trouble with politics because only 25% of the population (probably less) actually have some understanding of the issues and make an informed decision how to cast their ballots on election day…how sad
William – appreciate your Standing Orders. IRony and humour always better than name calling. As you have observed there will be a need for regular revision which could turn into Collected Works and Standing Orders over time.
For those constantly outraged by the likes of Dennis, Bolt, PD and Planet J…
I think the first two paragraphs of this sum it up
***(warning- big bad swearing in this one)***
2nd rave from the top
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
Glen I did add that it should be public!
Hi everyone how is it going? Are we all still happy with Rudd?
http://ozpolitik.com.synthasite.com/
bill weller
Learn to spell and then come back and lecture us, Bill.
Hi Bill
Looks like a road to Damascus conversion for you, quite a change.
As for Rudd, he is not the saviour and he is not just a very naughty boy, I still hold out out that he will achieve great things.
Still with YRAW?, I notice they are keeping Rudd on his toes re the winding back of WorkChoices,.
sorry about the spelling. Yes i have had a big change in my outlook and will be voting for the party that supports my views. No due to YR@W back stabbing i am not with them but have been re elected as a shop steward for the AMWU
Bill, is Mika with you on the, er, Islamosceptic bandwagon? Or might we yet see her running for the Greens again at the next state election?
Hi William Mikas is staying out of it.
That A-Span channel will most likely be just another pro-Labor channel. I can sense it.
48 – Another earth shattering, thought provoking comment.
wow the nutjobs have come out of the woodwork tonight.
Actually, I’m a bit disappointed with A-span. I thought it would be interesting, so far, it isn’t
Well with the various Parliaments not currently sitting, and the new POTUS only being in office for just on a week- I wouldn’t be expecting too much content atm, though things should liven up once Federal Parliament starts sitting and Estimates reconvene.
52- yes, your quite right.
It has potential
Do I dare ask what the ‘Southern Cross Greens’ are?
After all A-SPAN has only just started…
There was this guy awhile back called Scaper getting around who had some big thing called “Great Southern Cross” or something. He was quite the green evangelist but I
have no idea if they’re connected
IMHO Rudd is on the money with this.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/time-for-new-world-order/2009/01/30/1232818725574.html
Gary, I agree. No doubt Turnbull will argue the opposite but I’m quite sure that the Joe Average will support greater scrutiny and greater regulation of players in the financial sector. After all it’s our money they play with.
Oh, jeez. I just googled them (with “” around the words), and the third hit was Stormfront. I ain’t linking that poison back here, but if you wish, google that phrase.
If Howard can use the Tampa and xenophobia as a means to remain in power I am sure it is allowable for Rudd to paint Turnbull and the LNP as part of a league of economic terrorists that shattered the global economy and, remain wedded to this form of economic ‘evil’. Cue Turnbull saying something stupid like – leave it up to the market to sort out. (what a gift that was – cold heartless Malcolm)
Australians will choose their economy and the manner in which it should be conducted.
Gary Bruce @ 57
Good to see that the PM is putting his cards on the table and that the story looks coherent.
Some of it is no-brainer because those arguing for an unfettered market, self-regulation by industry, and for free trade are pretty lonely right now. But that does not answer the current big questions.
How much fettering, how much regulation, how much intervention, and how much risk should governments take on? Are we going to get all this in bits and pieces as more episodes of the crisis unfold? Is each bit and piece going to be calibrated to the nth degree to suit some political pressure group or other? Is a little bit of greed still going to be good?
Or are we going to get an Oz GOSplan? Should we be thinking five year economic plans, complete with production targets for every factory, concocted in Canberra? Shudder.
Fine to talk about more regulation. There are plenty of things a Government could do to make markets and big companies more transparent, and the individuals who run them more reasonable in their behaviour.
However, there are also plenty of so-called initiatives that, in the name of greater transparency, would simply lead to more paperwork and a lawyers’ picnic, without making much of a difference at all to Joe Public.
So the devil is in the detail as far as I’m concerned. Regulate by all means, but don’t do it stupidly, Mr Rudd.
Some of it’s easy:
- shareholder votes on executive and Director pay, terms and conditions to be binding
- executives not to be remunerated in company options (ordinary shares are fine)
Some of it’s probably about enforcing existing rules better, eg on misleading prospectuses, and on abuse of short-selling and so on.
But I agree with Boerwar, having Governments “pick winners”, if done to excess, is just going to be a lobbyists’ picnic, and the best ideas won’t win most of the time.
So it’d be good to know what Rudd really means.
The Australian is at it again.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24981624-11949,00.html
Headline is:
‘Iron-fed plankton offer deep-sea solution to carbon problem’.
This intrigued me, as I had been following the thinking and the experimental work with a great deal of interest, and had heard on the grapevine more or less the opposite to what the headline was saying. However, all was explained in the body of the article:
‘Hopes that iron fertilisation can be used commercially to offset carbon emissions suffered a blow, however, because the quantities of carbon that are locked away are as little as a 50th of what had been predicted by geo-engineers.’
Is it just me or is there a total disconnect between the headline says and what the body of the article says?
While I take no satisfaction from the way my prediction of heat-related deaths has come true, I suggest that Rudd may wish to bring forward the report into the enquiry into ways of addressing climate-change related deaths. Clearly, the current systems are inadequate and the sooner they are improved, the better.
It looks like confident predictions in previous threads that the HowRudd Convergence had solved the problem of Climate Change were a tad premature. The kerfuffle over the dud ETS is just not going to go away by itself. A few days of plus forty means absolutely nothing in terms of climate change, but those days will certainly concentrate the minds of the heat-addled punters.
‘Australia’s largest environment, welfare, religious and union groups — including the ACTU, the Australian Council of Social Service and the Australian Conservation Foundation — have already met to plan new campaigns, and will hold a national strategy meeting within a fortnight.’
Is there a political nexus forming between Barnaby Joyce, who is a CC sceptic, and those who are sceptics of Rudd’s ETS? Politics does make for strange bedfellows.
The Age
‘Environment groups swing to Coalition’
http://www.theage.com.au/national/environment-groups-swing-to-coalition-20090130-7u1i.html
Thomas Paine @ 60
I was inclined to agree with your post until I actually started to think about it. Tampa and xenophobia were all about dog whistling, a flagrant disregard of international law and the abuse of the least powerful people in humanity. Standard Howard Government stuff: Politics as bastardry, winner takes all.
Having a view that Turnbull, ex-banker and ex lawyer (an inspiring double), was part of the problem that got us into the crisis in the first place is nothing like any of the above. He might have been a bit more agile than the rest of the greed-crazed mob but that is neither an excuse nor a reason to think that he would make a useful PM.
It is perfectly legitimate to question why, when he was in Government, he didn’t raise his voice in warning about the unstable foundations of the global economy and the potential implications for Australia.
Those of you with a morbid interest in the way the oceans are acidifying, and the total disjunct between that and a dud 5% ETS, might want to have a look at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/science/earth/31ocean.html?_r=1
It contains a link to the Monaco Declaration, which, I believe, received b*gger-all coverage in the Australian MSM. (warning, the Declaration is a largish document).
as you know, Bishop and Turnbull have been waffling on that theres no need for Rudd’s safety net from international banks withdrawing finance to Australian companies, Turnbull has claimed ad nausium that Rudd was only propping up local banks, well the proof has arrived, it’s started and Rudd’s plan is going to save a lot of jobs.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24987292-5013404,00.html
Dio, i read the concert was a resounding success, i hope you enjoyed it.
Judith, I read the RBA figures and this article yesterday. I think the Oz might be jumping at a few shadows here.
http://economics.com.au/?p=2317
JB
Neil Young was excellent, thank you. The crowd was a lot happier and more civil than last year when Rage Against The Machine played.
I should point out that, at least in Adelaide, that no-one has died as a direct result of the heatwave. “Heatstroke” or hyperthermia hasn’t happened yet. All the deaths so far have been due to the heat putting extra stress on people’s systems who have little reserve, eg they already have heart or lung problems.
“It is perfectly legitimate to question why, when he was in Government, he didn’t raise his voice in warning about the unstable foundations of the global economy and the potential implications for Australia.”
Boerwar, hardly any Australian politicians said anything about it till mid 2008. Costello had one rant about an “economic tsunami” but even that was probably just electioneering.
I think Turnbull has been a mediocre Opposition leader (so far) so I’m not a huge fan, at all. But I think that’s an unfair rap to put on him.
PS Good to see you back!
Given that he was predicting it to originate from China, yes he was full of it
Perhaps Dario but my point is that (with the exception of a very few cranks/visionaries like Roubini) no-one thought something like this was going to happen (certainly not this spectacularly, anyway).
So why single out Turnbull for criticism?
“Neil Young was excellent, thank you. The crowd was a lot happier and more civil than last year when Rage Against The Machine played. ”
Funny, that
Gillard is spot on with this:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/world-can-learn-from-our-rules-gillard-20090131-7u8r.html
becuse they were in government at that time and were supposed to have their finger on the pulse of things, Turnbull was a minister in that government and also as an ex merchant banker was supposed to be a whiz bang economical expert, especially as it was the actions of some of his ex compatriots that helped cause this meltdown, the opposition wasnt a recipient of the advice of the expert public servants nor of the information given to the government at the time, besides Costello was supposed to be the world’s greatest treasurer, in that case i’d hate to see the worse–whoops wasnt that Howard???
Judith,
It’s not as if the Labor Govt saw it coming either. For example, in early 2008 Swan was still talking about inflation as the main threat. I’m not having a go at Swan, either, by the way.
We have just had (?are still having?) the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. No-one foresaw it, with very few exceptions (and those people were almost entirely ignored). No Governments around the world foresaw it.
I can’t see any reason to single out Turnbull for criticism on this particular point. If you wanted to start dishing out blame for lack of foresight, Swan and Rudd would have to be ahead of him in the queue. But I don’t think any of them deserve criticism for this.
By the way, I reckon Standard & Poor’s is the best place to start off in this particular “blame game”. How could they have ever rated all these instruments AAA?
But that’s just what I reckon.
#64
I thought the exact same thing when I read that article yesterday.
Even if Australian politicians saw that the US economy was likely to snap through the totally unrealistic lending practices of the banks do you really think they would have come out and said so? I have no doubt that there were people who saw that a catastrophe was possible but they either failed to speak up or their voices weren’t loud enough. For a minister or shadow to have said the US was on a downward spiral would have been criticised as being un-American and a doomsayer. That’s the way it works. I have a friend who is in his final year of an economics degree and in late 2006 he predicted the collapse. His voice wasn’t loud enough.
For all of Turnbull’s faults (and he has more that his fair share) I think it’s unfair to single him out on this issue. It’s his behavior since the GFC became apparent to everyone that deserves condemnation.
No-one is arguing that extremes are not economical suicide. We’ve had one extreme go wrong. Time for reassessment and change surely and not to another extreme but a change non the less. Let’s not do nothing for fear of going too far.
Steve K,
I would use the word “criticism” not “condemnation” at the end.
Otherwise I agree with you, word for word.
I have a friend who wrote a book 150 years ago that predicted the collapse and the reasons for it. No one listened. =(
The Tourism and Transport Forum was predicting a collapse only yesterday.
http://www.ttf.org.au/Content/indicators0109.aspx
Not all bad news, out local K-mart store is extending it’s hours from 5.30pm to 9pm weekdays and an extra 1&1/2 weekends. There might actually be putting on of staff instead of sackings.
The Repugs have elected their first black Chairman.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/us/politics/31web-steele.html?_r=1&hp
Dio whats your take on this, MHS is getting on the bandwagon blaming the heat deaths on the government.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24984187-5006301,00.html
JB
Very, very ordinary. As I said before no-one has actually died as a direct result of the heatwave. How do you stop elderly, sick people from dying in their sleep? The power rationing was only for 1 hour in each suburb to that made no difference. Even if you knew you were going to lose power for one hour, what would you do differently?
The Department of Health has uncharacteristically pulled it’s finger out and made sure the hospitals would cope with the influx of patients. MHS seems to think that Rann and Conlon having a meeting will help things. I can’t see how the deaths could have been avoided.
Judith,
All Hammerhead-Smith together with Paul Makin and Frank Pangallo from Today Tonight are good for is playing the blame game without coming up with any remedies of which there may not be many anyway. In extreme heat what we have witnessed and probably will continue to witness as the heatwave continues is probably always going to happen anyhow. I think most South Australians with the exception of rusted on libs would say the same thing.
I’ve no doubt that if we have another Ash Wednesday and that is not beyond the realms of possibility given the weather we’ve been experiencing that Rann and Co will get the blame for that as well by Martie.
Judy
As you said, MHS is one sick puppy craving attention. Comes close to Willis infamous comments following Granville.
There have been a few studies into deaths during heat waves – they all reach similar conclusions.
“During heat waves, there is usually an excess mortality rate in the population, affecting especially older adults and those who are sick. However, there has also been observed a decrease in overall mortality during the subsequent weeks after a heat wave. Such short-term forward shift in mortality rate is also referred to as harvesting effect. The subsequent, compensatory reduction in mortality suggests that the heat wave had affected especially those whose health is already so compromised that they “would have died in the short term anyway”.
MHS is a dill.
Oz @ 83
Gee, you have a friend from 150 years ago. Wow, that must make you close to 200 years old – very impressive. The point I was making was that you didn’t need to be a treasurer or a financial guru writing for a major newspaper to have read the signs and recognised the unsustainable nature of the situation. Even a first year economics student was able to see the signs.
So who was your friend way back then?
dyno @ 82
“criticism” not “condemnation” is fair enough.
ruawake
It kills me that you always know more about these things than me. And I mean that as a compliment.
There are some genuine “heatstroke” deaths in healthy people who exercise, dehydrate, take amphetamines and go to the BDO and melt, almost literally. These would not have died but their number is very small.
News article was also very critical of MHS in detailing all the actions that govt had taken, MHS days numbered?
enjaybe, mentioning Makin and Pangallo around me is like waving a red flag at a bull, i dont just activly dislike them I LOATHE THEM!!!! for the scum they are, perhaps putting MHS in the same sentence with them is unfair to him, because i only dislike him and his policies.
Like GB, TP and others I am also pleased to see Rudd’s statement. It is none too soon – the economic conservative tag will soon become untenable, as governments everywhere will have to go into deficit to repair the damage the private finance sector has done, and to do what it never cared to do for ten years – fund needed infrastructure and public services. We have been coasting on the past investment of the 70s and 80s for too long, while our needs were still growing. I doubt that many will mourn the passing of excessive bonuses either, except a few executives and their Masserati dealers. Total reliance on the private sector has been almost as stupid as total reliance on the public sector was in communist Russia.
i couldnt resist it i just had to leave a blog, also on the one about will MHS continue leading the libs, i’ll be a good girl now and behave myself.
Steve, I wasn’t ridiculing you and your friend, quite the opposite.
My friend is someone quite well know and his name starts with M and ends with X.
My Ex?
Oz, Ah, Uncle Karl I believe. A wise chap to be sure but just a little too pessimistic on the whole for me.
Brian Manix?
Labour Market Theory: ”Everybody Wants To Work (no, no, not me)”
Well placed, in this case, it seems.
Turnbull’s at it again, though i guess it’s his job as he sees it, opposing everything in sight for the sake of opposing, this time he’s comparing Rudd’s essay with the Whitlam years, he’s going to shudder at the thought of that he says, hmm wonder if he realises how many of us would shudder at the thought of him at the helm.
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/01/31/2479137.htm
René de Saint-Marceaux?
The Rothschild sculptor?
James Mayer de Rothschild
An advisor to two kings of France, he became the most powerful banker in the country and following the Napoleonic Wars, played a major role in financing the construction of railroads and the mining business that helped make France an industrial power. Along the way, he added to his fortune with investments in such things as the importation of tea and the purchase of a vineyard. A strong-willed and shrewd businessman, James de Rothschild amassed a fortune that made him one of the richest men in the world.
“Older Australians like myself will shudder at the thought that Kevin Rudd is channelling the Whitlam era in his latest treatise.”
Malcolm are you channelling your demographic – you are 54 for crud’s sake. You were 18 when Whitlam was elected and still at school. But of course you could not vote against him in 1972 because the voting age was still 21.
Bet you enjoyed getting your Arts-Law degree free, thanks to Whitlam.
Malcolm is getting desperate – will he make it to the Budget Session I doubt it.
ru I was going to make the same point myself. Most people now wouldn’t remember the whitlam years. Besides I think Rudd’s views on this will get a fairly good reception by most.
Malcolm disliked Whitlam so much he went into business with his son.
Whitlam Turnbull & Co Ltd
And who is Turnbull channelling? Thatcher?
Lenore Taylor had an interesting piece in today’s OO, observing that Turnbull is trying to differentiate himself from Rudd, by abandoning the approach favoured by Larry Summers, Harvard professor and former US treasury secretary, and now head of Obama’s National Economic Council to pump prime the economy by timely, targetted and temporary action to that favoured by conservative Stanford professor, John Taylor, of permanent, pervasive and permanent tax cuts. They’re both trying to shape domestic politics, obviously. Trouble for Malcolm is Kevin got in first, and with a treatise, no less.
My, that Mr. Rudd is a hard working soul. Took time out of his holiday to bang out a 7,000 word piece to explain his thinking about how to manage the GFC. And Mr. Turnbull just kvetches?
Of course he is, Whitlam had a grand vision for Australia, he is the father of modern day Australia, where higher education was accessable for all, a national free health system, where the government got actively involved in infrastructure, brinign seweage and footpaths and public transport and health to neglected suburbs. He also encouraged Australians to be proud of their own identity, stopped the cultural cringe that Aussie stuff, be it products and culture were 2nd rate
What is wrong with that.
I was also impressed with Turnbull rabbiting on about big gov’t., given how much the Fed. Gov’t. grew under the previous regime. Perhaps he thinks the population has the memory span of a goldfish.
Harry,
It’s important to express what you believe in. That way, you get all the hard bits out of the way up front. What you do if you actually got power is another thing entirely. John Howard is the role model.
With Gillard in Davos, and doing a great job, how long till we hear a criticism that Rudd should be there instead of sending his deputy.
ruawake, you forgot the little point that Turnbull was left leaning till he married into a liberal family– shades of Nelsons “i’ve never voted liberal in my life” lol.
castle
Imagine if the L-NP had won the last election. Instead of Julia Gillard at Davos we would have Warren Truss. Oh the embarrasment.
shhh castle dont wake the children, they’ll make one heck of a noise when they find out.
standing Truss and Gillard next to each other—yup castle i can see what you mean, we’ve just been saved a fate worse than death.
G.G. Malcolm believes only in his destiny to be P.M.. Kevin wont even sit down with him in the spirit of being co-P.M., sorry, bi-partisanship on the GFC. Naturally, he’s miffed.
Now here is a man setting himself an impossible task, afterall the Liberal National Party has no policies just press releases cut and paste under policies and numbered on Springborg.com.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24987058-5006786,00.html
http://www.springborg.com/
Kevin Rudd has hit Turnbull with a reverse wedgie with triple pike.
He has enunciated his philosophy for the future – Malcolm can only defends the past.
(Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing the question (such as mysticism or mythology) by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on reasoned argument.)
Malcolm is left with mythology – Whitlam was bad, no-one knew about the debt bubble, the market rules etc.
Rudd has a weapon to attack the Liberal Legacy – Malcolm must defend the indefensible.
After the joys of phlebotamy for me on Tuesday (Diog, bleeding time, ITP, I need a tooth out) I can’t wait for Question Time.
Clive Palmer was on both Today Tonight and 7.30 Report last night – the TT report was a puff piece, while 76.30 report dug a little deeper. and what is it with Qld Conservatives who jave peanut shaped heads ?
That should read 7.30 Report.
the TT tonight story made a cursory mention of him being a former Joh mouthpiece and mentioned his son running for parliament (and his son is the Qld version of WA’s Albert “Boyband” Jacobs*)
* This is a The Worst of Perth reference as young Albert has a “Boyband” hairstyle.
I agree, Ruawake. Reckon Rudd will announce the stimulus package about 2 hours before Question Time, then let the fun begin! Hope the tooth extraction isn’t too ghastly, in particular, the aftermath.
You’d reckon anyone associated with Joh would be political poison. What a corrupt individual and government that was. He probably would have gone to prison if not for the National on the jury.
Frank, I’m probably showing my age, or something here, but what is a “Boyband” hairstyle?
Australia heading for recession – IMF
But maybe not – The Australian could not help themselves.
“It is understood the IMF emphasised that the margin of error meant they were, to all intents and purposes, forecasting “close to zero” growth.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24989513-12377,00.html
Why am I not surprised?
ruawake
Sorry to hear about the ITP/CLL combo. Sucks. There’s something about Helicobacter Pylori as a trigger for ITP in people with CLL. I forget the details. I’m sure you know already anyway.
Isn’t channeling communication with the dead
Gough is very much alive, just to spite the bastards.
IMF are a bunch of thieves in suits.
Channelling the Whitlam Prime Ministership, is what he means, I think. Don’t see the point in channelling Whitlam atm.
Craig James is backing two long shots in that article. His economic Daily Double is paying $5 for the 1.25% rate drop and $3.40 for no recession.
Spiky hair. see http://www.albertjacob.net/uploads/lg/campaignfunction.jpg of young Albert’s hairstyle – very reminicent of http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/03/02/westlife_wideweb__470×436,0.jpg
Thanks, Frank.
Mr Palmer said if the LNP achieved government, he would ensure they did the right thing by the people of Queensland.
That is of course Mr Palmer’s idea of the right thing, whatever it may be.
Oh to have so much power, to be able to run the state of QLD all on your own.
I reckon it will be a 1.5% cut ala NZ. The RBA has exceeded market expectations in the last few cuts.
But of course it will take the banks two months to pass it on.
Diog – angry pills (prednisolone) keep my platelets over 50k and I always have a spleen to nuke. I feel sorry for the lovely women doing the bleeding test – stop watch in one hand, blotting paper in the other, courier waiting to get the blood to Bris Vegas within 3 hours.
Lucky we have the best health system in the world – yes I mean it and can prove it.
Well one thing is for sure Muskiemp, Springborg has got no clue at all. Here is a prize quote from the Gold Coast Bulletin yesterday:
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2009/01/29/43835_gold-coast-news.html
ruawake
Laparoscopic splenectomy is an excellent operation.
Wouldn’t you think that Springborg would have an adviser who could make sure he has a clean hanky each morning and who could also throw a typical tricky Queensland journalist question or two at him him during the drive to various engagements to make sure he’s on top of the issues?
Sample tricky Queensland journalist’s.question No. 1 = “What would the LNP do if it won the next election?”
Nah, that’s way too tricky for Larry to handle. He can’t think of a single difference he could make.
There was a great comedy sketch about The Borg – It was played on 612 ABC but I cannot find it online.
The LNP were meeting in the Borg’s secret cave and the answer to any question was LNP-LNP-LNP. No policies were allowed.
Depends on the size.
Steve K, he is probably hoping to bring back the infrastructure freeze they had when Springborg was last a minister. It is hard to believe he ever was a minister sometimes.
Steve K, Springy did not have time to consult Mr Palmer for an answer on what he wants done.
That’s of course to make sure that he does the right thing for the Qlders.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24989652-601,00.html
Is Rudd finally starting to his job properly? By giving us the recession that we had to have. But I wouldn’t hold my breath though since this prediction came from IMF. This is same IMF that gave the growth prescription to the Asian Tigers that led to the Asian Financial Crisis of 1998. This is the same IMF that:
http://www.brettonwoodsproject.org/art-562423
The “Buy America” specification that is part of Obama’s $1Trillion economic stimulus package is causing quite a stir at Davos. Rightly so. For someone who promised leadership to the World, this will tear the world apart if implemented. Every country will be for itself and we all be fffffed. It’s time someone told Obama this not Hollywood where the Americans always win and is the only game in town. Do we still have a chorus line for Obama here?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/rosemary_righter/article5613759.ece
Finnigans
I guess you would object to any campaign to buy Australian made goods?
Finns, what is to be done with factories full of goods that people won’t buy at present?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/business/economy/31econ.html?_r=1&ref=business
Just caught up with Turnbull’s statements and I agree it is stupid. IF he is going to criticise debt in a recession then he would have to explain how a coalition would avoid it. The only possibilities are reducing spending or increasing taxes. He can’t excape that question; hes snookered.
Malcolm’s problem is that he is talking about bringing forward the July tax cuts, thats only 20 weeks away and will give people an extra $100 or so or $5 a week. Wow big deal great stimulus package.
Malcolm wants the Govt. to reduce taxes, not because it is good policy but because it reduces revenue so they have less money to spend on other stuff – then he can complain when the “temporary cuts” are removed. Its his only trick left.
That is why Bishop and he were ranting on about Labor being a high taxing govt. last week.
Bluff called – Turnbull is so predictable.
Ruawake agreed. When Malcolm says that all they have to ask is how he pays for the tax cuts? Which govt spending does he cut in a recession?
Peter Martin has concerns about the current account deficit which has remained ignored for years as imports swamp exports.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/01/saturday-insight-our-problems-are-worse.html
Socrates
Malcolm can cut revenue, reduce taxes, increase spending and still keep the budget in surplus – Just ask him.
His great hope was that the great financial swindle would be his key to Kirribilli. Instead it is his key to obscurity as a failed wannabe – John Hewson may be able to give him some tips.
He’s an amazing man Ruawake. His genius transcends maths itself.
Hewson was not a great politican but at least he was a competent economist. He was right about the GST, though he sold it badly.
Shanahan’s take on Rudd’s manifesto, actually looks like Shana spruced up and brushed his hair for filming.
http://player.video.news.com.au/theaustralian/#O_vNn8AWhJvBfM_lstgWm5Pm6pvOf5qI
As the link to Peter Martin’s household saving ratio was faulty, here is a paper explaining the increase in savings over the past year in Australia.
http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1451/PDF/06_Household_saving_in_Australia.pdf
So Turnbull is invoking the name of Gough Whitlam. As commenters have said, you’d have to be getting on a bit, say 50+, to remember Gough. And to remember him with ill-feeling you’d have to be a blueblooded, anti-Labor Liberal.
So it seems MT might be dog-whistling older, rusted-on Liberals. Now, they would be surely the most faithful reliable cohort the Liberals have got. If any group could be “taken for granted”, I’d have thought it would be them.
Why is Malcolm waving his hands to be noticed by them? Is he having credibility/cut-through problems with elderly conservatives? Are the Liberals worried about their core support demographic?
Could it be the fact that nice Mr Rudd has given them a nice wad of cash to boost their pensions, and with further reforms in that direction to the pension will result in the oldies voting Labor ?
WILLIAM BOWE
“There might be a certain unpleasant irony to the fact that ….’s drivel helped draw my attention to the fact,..”
“certain unpleasant irony” ? No , people’s depraved use of that ‘Klux” mob as a smeer pre-assumes no one will call them out/chalenge them because people ar ‘civilised’, and it worked
Only irony is I alone chose to call it out .. that smut of aleged “Klux” mob tendencies for what it was
And th only double irony is I deliberateley highlited that smeerer’s OTHER false “Klux” mob allegation of using th “O” word (used by a SINGLE “Klux” looney)
So I highlited to you th “O” ‘s use here as I openly then said I used it also (but simply because I ALSO was being smeered for using that “O” word as well ….solely based on a single crazy Klux” madman using it once on some looney site
I’ve never heard of And furthermore I highlited my use to you by pointing out my own self creatd word itself was just a unfortanute coincidence (which I did define as.. nuanced smooth delivery (from old Castrol ‘oils aren’t oils’ adds) That self highliting seems infair to punish th ‘defender’ and unwitingly reward th ‘smeerer’ as that’s what he demandd
And yes on different levels William , I also knew in doing so I’d open a exposed ‘front’ for those aggrievd at my Obama lingos to seeze on th carcas of “Klux” mobs “O” word & my separate “O” word definition defenses , , but choises one makes
Therefire my own dewliberate highliting of my correct defined usage of “O” (which since Dec ist has been used minuscule times in 9,355 posts , but more times beforehand) has been applied as a ban for ‘over use’ , rather than being highlited by me to rebut a smeer
So I fail to see any “certain unpleasant irony” at all What I actually see is an unwitting irony of “O” word and “Klux” concurrently being banned , which was in fact th damn basis of th smeerer’s original smut smeer , and thus giving unintended ….but still unwaranted credense to th smeerer’s alegation …seeing that’s what he asked for So I’m fine and not personally complainin of you… well except re principal , this is actually 3 principals
To apply th removal of th “O” word for th reason of “tedous over use” given th abov actual events & its past 2 months minuscule use may be completely mistconstrued , and I am bamused
I thought th rule may be ….. an Owner is not always right , even when he is wrong
…a “certain unpleasant irony”… (and having ‘ron’ in your ‘irony’ didn’t help it eithr , seeing some principals ar worth breaking rules over , even if to majority of ‘no interst’
.
But then I wuld hav thought that th now officially aproved word “oily” was further away from my definition of “O” than “O” …yet there is no poster’s dissent here at all , amazing…so I’ll “oily” now , occasioaly where appropriate , reluctantly culturing down my dialecs
Cuppa, exactly. Rudd, as Ruawake has noted, has wedged him with a triple pike.
Ron, Give us all a break and drop the subject.
I’ll take no notise of you at all whether you like it or not
PS Correcton..use as an adkectiv not a nick name of course
I second Steve K’s recommendation. It’s so boring, Ron.
Harry , and i’ll second my post #159….re-read it , it sounds better a second time
Sigh, I’m terribly sorry, Ron, that some of us value language and its construction in order to convey meaning, in a way that most of us can figure out what others are talking about. It doesn’t mean we know everything. We clearly don’t. What I find objectionable from you is a presumption that you are right about any number of things that there can be no presumption of being right about. So I’m inclined, now, to regard your postings with scant regard.
Pity
The case of the Kenyan poll 2007 and the secret US exit poll investigated by NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/world/africa/31kenya.html?_r=1
Harry , you failed 2 tests but as i write i mat tink of more tet failures
first you say
“What I find objectionable from you is a presumption that you are right about any number of things”
I put an opinion on subjects here , what you may be embarrassed about i an inability to rebut a particular opinion put
Owo a presumtion you say quote “you is a presumption that you are right’ fails th logic test doesn’t it Why th hel wuld aNYONE put an opinion they thought was wrong !!
Third , you disrespectivly assumd what william may or may not tink about a post i addressd to him Coutesy wuld be to let him decide
Fourly, ..well , i hold that one in reserve…although now reading by posts with “scant regard” presumes you ar a speed reader suppose
steve, raises an interesting point also spoken about in some of the dead tree papers today, namely that the West has customarily mistaken other cultures/nations opposition to Western culture. I’ve long thought that one of the things that “West” hasn’t got is this opposition. Call me an old fuddy duddy, but who really needs or wants Britney Spears?
Ron, not going to argue. Just saying that sometimes, I found some of your posts of interest.
166 – Err HSO, I wouldn’t mind.
“Call me an old fuddy duddy, but who really needs or wants Britney Spears?”
I’d actually call you sensible for asking that.
Steady on Gary
About what, Gary?
So have we come here for a good argument, then?
Anyone still up?
Harry, no arguments from me about Britney being a waste of space.
It’s hard to argue if you agree. I was just joking of course.
Oh dear, I’ve just back tracked to Gary Bruce and the Britney Spears thing. Gary, a blow up doll with a drug habit would be as much fun, I assure you.
The latest news about the upcoming stimulus package is that the tax cuts will be directed at the less well off. Sounds reasonable to me. They are the ones more likely to spend them rather than save them due to necessity.
Ok, Harry, as I’m a Liberal and you’re not, I’m sure we can find something to argue about.
What about this: in my cynical way I’m pretty sure Rudd’s statement about the “new world order” is just an insurance policy. He’s not actually planning to do anything – after all, if he is planning to do something here, why has his Deputy just (correctly) told the WEF that “the world can learn from our rules”. He just wants something up his sleeve so if 2009 turns out to be an absolute shocker, he can say “I told you so and it’s the other side’s fault”.
On the other hand if we get through without a recession (seems unlikely but who knows), or with only a very mild recession, it will be a case of FIGJAM (or more specifically, FWGJAU), and the new world order will be quietly shelved in Australia.
Smart politics from Rudd, and very, very cynical.
You guys are still up. Great. What do you think about how Rudd will work the relationship with Obama?
Ron, it’s a pity you weren’t around at the time Samuel Johnson was assembling his Dictionary of the English Language (the mid 1700s). Despite his famously irascible character, he would have loved “adkectiv” (a word used to modify Russian-English nouns), “mistconstrued” (wrongly interpreted due to foggy explanations) and “pyromids” (fiery abdominal regions).
(!)
BTW, I’m getting worried about Obama’s protectionist tendencies. Let’s hope it’s just talk.
HSO, great that you asked about Obama, as you can see my mind was on the same thing.
Rudd’s key challenge with Obama is trade. He’ll have to work his butt off in that area, I fear.
His other challenge will be getting noticed at all. If I was Rudd I certainly wouldn’t be committing more troops to Afghanistan without trying to get my pound of flesh in return.
Another interesting dilemma about Obama: things could get interesting if there’s a blow-up between us and Indonesia, say in New Guinea.
Pretty sure I know where Obama’s personal sympathies would lie as between Australia and Indonesia.
Inner Westie , wuld hav added some sugestions lie..we ask our kids to spell , but english words don’t spell kkie soiund , then some sound same but diferently spelled , now i’m argiung with whole maths edacaton dept cause teaching mathematics wrong like 1×3 , 2×3 then 1×4 , 2×4 and i says thats wrong away around You see English got english from greeks who got from egyptians , and as saids other nite Greeks missed out stealing th good partslike hyroglifics etc …. thats why there’s a problem , i’m in process of corecting Jognsons errors
That’s interesting, Dyno. I think Rudd and Obama are roughly equivalent in their politics and approach to the GFC. I think the politics and economics of Bush, Blair and Howard, have been discredited by both Iraq and the GFC. Turnbull, by veering to the economic conservative, for economic ballast for his PM push, has lost it. You’re quite right about Rudd. He’s very clever. However, what’s different about him is he’s genuine and it communicates.
dyno, I think that Rudd, whatever else I may think of him, on other fronts, is or has been positioning himself since he came to the big chair. This is not someone who flies by the seat of his pants. The media may lampoon him for being a nerd and process driven, but the polls sure don’t reflect the media cynicism.
I don’t think we’ve seen Rudd’s actual essay yet, have we? Only the news reports of it. So we’re all still guessing to some extent about what he’s even saying, let alone what he’ll actually do.
Turnbull is just not a very good politician, I’m afraid. A talented fellow in many ways, but not a good politician. One example: the deficit. Anyone could see 3-4 months ago that he and Bishop were heading down a blind alley with that – that we’d end up in deficit and this would be reasonably popular with the voters. (Several PBers, including me, predicted this in about Oct/Nov – and so did lots of other people). But he’s persisted with this “no deficit is allowed” line and now is on the wrong side of an argument that’s pretty much decided in the public mind. I hate to say it, but Rudd is simply running rings around Turnbull at the moment.
Yes Rudd is very calculating, and clever, and has a work ethic to match his ability.
I have to say I under-estimated him a bit when he first became leader.
Obama’s administration looks like changing their mind on the protectionist policy.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/buy-american-campaign-under-review/2009/01/31/1232818771370.html
Rudd’s learning too. He was smart to send Gillard off to Davos, much as he probably really wanted to go himself. I’m not sure that he would have made that (correct) decision six months ago.
It’s the Narrowing, dang I thought the 59.5 was the Liberal 2 party prefered vote!
You’re right, dyno, we haven’t seen the actual essay as yet. I’ve no idea why Turnbull would launch into an attack on the essay on the basis it was channeling Whitlam. It struck me as naff.
You’re certainly on the money about Turnbull being a not very good politician. It’s weird, Ted Bailleiu is quite a nice human being, but I’m blessed if I know why he’s in politics. If I was an architect with a lot of money behind me, I’d be doing architecture, or at least himself indoors would be (he’s the architect).
With friends like these in Qld politics who needs enemies?
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24990671-952,00.html
dyno, you’re so bloody hard to argue against. A fair minded Liberal, go figure.
dyno, you may just wind up thinking Rudd terrific, and I may just wind up thinking him a sod, mainly about global climate change. Before everyone gets stuck into me about this, I am fairly close to what Boerwar thinks on this issue(please see his well argued and evidence based propositions), except I think it’s too late.
Interesting poll.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/four-in-10-workers-fear-losing-their-jobs-as-woes-deepen-20090131-7uh0.html
Hello fellow progressive voters,
I’m starting to think this economic crisis is beyond what most of us plebs have ever faced, this is “great depression” territory, and the mass media is damn determined that we SHALL HAVE A MASSIVE DOWNTURN! , even though me myself can’t see it that way,
how many of you agree ??
Jeez, Gary, Queenland politics continues to be as…. I can’t quite find the adjective, in light of William’s new Standing Orders.
personally I’m absolutely disgusted by that prospect !
I agree with you regarding the MSM HBF. If any positive news on the financial front comes along (admittedly rare at the moment) it is hidden away or comes with a big ‘but’. The negative makes front page news.
Harry “Snapper” Organs
Posted Sunday, February 1, 2009 at 12:30 am | Permalink
“Jeez, Gary, Queenland politics continues to be as…. I can’t quite find the adjective, in light of William’s new Standing Orders.”
Serves you “right”, treating my posts with quote “scant regard”….in my dialecs I’ve got tones of them adkectives , and all past filters
Jeez, Ron, give it a rest, will you? I’ve said previously that I try a
whoops, hit the wRONg button. I try and read what you post, Ron, and mostly can decipher it. As on other occasions, I’ve no idea why I’ve attracted your ire.
does parliament start monday or tuesday, i know the reserve bank reports tuesday but i’m not sure about parliament, red Kerry’s back in the 7.30 report seat monday {thank heavens} it makes one appreciate him all the more when he’s been away and they put wannabes in his place
Think it’s Tuesday, Judith.
tuesday
see here
http://www.aph.gov.au/
Harry “Snapper” Organs
Posted Sunday, February 1, 2009 at 12:51 am | Permalink
“whoops, hit the wRONg button. ….I’ve no idea why I’ve attracted your ire.”
just hit th “de-ire” button……I see your prose is quite cultared above
And won’t Question Time be interesting once the RBA announces a full 1% cut in Interest Rates
thanks guys, i wouldnt miss question time for the world, we may see some fireworks Rudd style–in a gentlemanly way.
Hypocrites?
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24990321-5001021,00.html
Or are tax cuts ok if part of a broader package?
“Australian Trade Minister Simon Crean, who had been among the critics amid fears it could damage Australia’s $500 million worth of annual steel exports to the US, welcomed news of the review……
The US House of Representatives passed the OBAMA stimulus package, …on Wednesday….
If the measures are approved, Australian iron and steel producers face being locked out of selling their products to contractors building railroads, airports, bridges, canals, dams and tunnels across the US.”
FACT is both Obama AND th Democrat controled HOR WERE prepared to screw this Country , our exports & badly damage our econamy , and may still go ahead & do so Lets noit kid ourselves , th Republicons wuld not hesitate to do so eithr
“its time”……to judge Obama & Democrats on what they do , not pretty words of myths that sounds good cause be asurred th Liberla US MSN will not criticaly do so any more than th ‘oz’ Newspaper criticaly judges a conseative Aust Govt
We can be satisfied Bushism of gitmos , torture renditions etc and perhaps Iraq ar history…but we want th protectionist aspect bill demolishd completeley ….hav always questoned cautiond what will be th positv replasement of th actuals , irespectiv of anyones ‘hopes”…that ozimandios guy was inspiring also to believers
Ron @ 212
I seem to recall that you did warn us before he was elected that Obama had protectionist tendencies?
I wonder what good news the Latvian MSM is expected to cook up to cover the following?
‘The Latvian central bank governor has pronounced the economy “clinically dead”.’
http://www.theage.com.au/world/european-governments-tremble-as-anger-spreads-20090131-7ufm.html?page=2
Obama to review ‘buy American’ clause
http://business.theage.com.au/business/world-business/obama-to-review-buy-american-clause-20090131-7u9d.html
Sobering ILO Press Release:
‘Based on new developments in the labour market and depending on the timeliness and effectiveness of recovery efforts, the report says global unemployment in 2009 could increase over 2007 by a range of 18 million to 30 million workers, and more than 50 million if the situation continues to deteriorate.
The ILO report also said that in this last scenario some 200 million workers, mostly in developing economies, could be pushed into extreme poverty.’
http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_ILO/Media_and_public_information/Press_releases/lang–en/WCMS_101462/index.htm
Is the sun is about to conduct an experiment on us?*
Roughly speaking, every 11 years or so the Sun moves from a solar cycle of lots of solar activity to a cycle of not so much solar activity and then from minimum cycle to maximum cycle and so on. (In broad terms, the more activity, the hotter it gets on earth. How much hotter is a matter for lots of debate). Sceptics have been saying that the CO2 stuff is a furphy and we should we looking at the Sun to get all our answers to climate change. The rest say that the radiation variation is not nearly enough to explain climate variation.
We are just ending a minium cycle BUT the next maximal activity cycle is kicking in late and weak…
The interesting bit is that, historically, really prolonged minimal cycles have been associated with very cold periods, such as the Dalton Mimum…
There will be a lot of breath holding for the next 12 months or so…
http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/2009-01/whats-happening-sun?page=#comments
*inspired by a Crikey article
TP @ 215
It is an interesting way of doing business. Is he learning on the job, or is the game to belt out an ambit claim and argue backwards?
If the latter he will have his international allies and trading partners well and truly on the hop.
Boerwar, surely you of all people are aware that solar activity and cycles only correspond with less than a quarter of surface temperature variations?
well part of America and Canada are in an ice age, this morning there was reports of people freezing to death in their beds.
It is indeed an interesting trait of the Queensland National Party that they have never been able to allow any dissent from what they perceive as being the way Queensland will be ruled.
As far as I can tell they learn nothing from the Fitzgerald Inquiry and are keen to carry on with the preFitzgerald practices for which they were roundly condemned and has left them languishing in the political wilderness for years.
Bjeke Petersen had threats of suing opponents down to a fine art. People without money were threatened with continual fines and the threat of jail if they expressed dissent. Others such as FIDO the Fraser Island Defence Organisation were hounded unmercifully in unsavory ways.
The last time they were in power the National Party under Borbidge was locked in a never ending armwrestle with the then Criminal Justice Commission. There is something seriously wrong with a party that rules with the jackboot but is too thin skinned to allow any form of protest about its governing style.
Zero tolerance of dissent is what the Liberal National Party proudly stand for.
Democracy is a concept that the Queensland Nationals just can not get their heads around. I doubt whether there is one Shadow Minister that could explain basic concepts such as ‘the doctrine of the separation of powers’. Just imagine their concept of ‘the Rule of Law’ or ‘representative Government’.
This is what happened the last time they were asked about democratic principles:
Palmer’s threat to Bligh is not about what she has just said about Palmer and the LNP, as like she states it was a political comment. The threat is to quiten her criticism down a fraction or she may have second thoughts on criticising Palmer. He knows the current threat will never face or win a court case.
Muskiemp, they are known as SLAPP’s (Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation).
As in slap a writ on somebody to shut them up.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SLAPP%27s_in_Australia
I think the conservatives in Qld would have a better chance of winning the state election if they DID NOT merge with the Liberal Party. Many Qld National Party elders I have said that the party should have kept its RURAL identity. The merger is a gift to Anna Bligh.
steve
That Joh piece was priceless. I’m actually reading a book by Bob Burton, who is the editor of SourceWatch, called “Inside Spin” which is about the PR industry in Oz. It’s making me even more sceptical of anything I see.
Can I go off topic for a second and mention a fact I found out from a friend who works on ICU? We were talking about the heatwave and heat-illnesses. SA is about to have it’s first heatstroke death. He said that the first wave of patients admitted with heatstroke were not the elderly, who were the second wave. The first wave were people with schizophrenia. Evidently the anti-psychotics interfere with their ability to regulate their body temperature, a fact not mentioned so far in the media.
So if we have and relatives, friends or neighbours with schizophrenia, we should be making sure they are OK.
Dio
Sadly a family member with schizophrenia died in the Brisbane heatwave in 2004
Admittedly there were other health complications but the medication was definitely a factor. I hope they issue warnings to people in that situation and their families/carers in future.
Hands up those who believe the opposition is against the government going into deficit. Well, if you are mentally putting your hand in the air you are wRONg. Julie has told us today that the opposition does not oppose the government taking us into deficit as long as the government has a strategy to get us out of it. The Libs have no shame. They will change their story to suit the occasion.
So Glen and GP, is it now ok to go into deficit or is it still Labor incompetence supported by your leadership?
Socrates
It looks like the antipsychotics and lithium (for mania) are the main problems. Sadly, it’s happened before in Hurricane Katrina, was reported and then forgotten.
Don’t Forget People With Mental Illnesses; Lessons of Hurricane Katrina Cited
http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=Press_Release_Archive&template=/contentmanagement/contentdisplay.cfm&ContentID=36388&title=HEAT+STROKE%3A++Don%92t+Forget+People+With+Mental+Illnesses%3B+Lessons+of+Hurricane+Katrina+Cited
Dio
Is there any chance of getting that out to the MSM? The Adelaide heatwave still has a week to go.
I thought that was always their position? What’s the Opposition’s plan to get Australia out of a deficit? Doubt they have one.
Socrates
I’ll try. Judith seems to have the media contacts though.
Did you get that SMS last night “For urgent assistance phone 000. Do not reply to this message. IMPORTANT SA GOVERNMENT HEAT HEALTH WARNING: Heat Stress Can Kill; Stay Cool; Stay Inside; Drink plenty of water; Check the safety of vulnerable neighbours; Listen to your radio”
How did they get all our mobile phone numbers? Did they pay Telstra to send it out of something?
Bree, nice attempt to rewrite history but wasn’t it the Nationals who went cap in hand initially to Howard and then Nelson demanding a merger?
I had my mobile switched of and will check. No idea how they get the phone numbers.
Thanks for the explanation. My sister was on anti-psychotics at the time.
ltep, Malcolm told us there was no need for us to go into deficit. Now they are agreeing we may need to and do not oppose it as long as there is a way out. If that’s not a 180 degree change in position I’ll eat William’s hat.
Case made.
I wonder if Malcolm still sees it that way given what Bishop has said today.
More about Freedom of Speech in a political context here:
http://www.aph.gov.au/LIBRARY/Pubs/RN/2001-02/02rn42.htm
It is going to be a fun Queensland election campaign if the Premier of a state is unable to make political comment without the threat of being sued.
As opposed to every other developed country in the world which is both in recession and deficit. How dumb does Turnbull think the voters are?
steve @ 234
Howard was always against a merger. He was a big supporter of the Coalition agreement at federal and state levels. People like George Brandis have also publicly stated that a Coalition agreement is better than a merger.
I am glad that Obama Admin is now promising to review the “Buy America” policy of its stimulus package. Anyone who has been watching Davos on BBC or APAC will have seen that this has been condemned outright.
The Obama Admin must kill this off immediately, by throwing it under the bus. Or else it will be viewed by the World as no better than the Bush Admin and just a continuation of the Bush’s unilateral doctrine. You are either with us or against us. As the Bush Admin has for 8 years shown its failure of leadership in the global context and indirectly contribute to the current GFC.
Bree, so what convinced Brendan Nelson?
Finns
You can be sure that if Bush was still in, there is no way he would even contemplate reviewing the decision. This shows Obama’s political maturity and ability to consider other’s points of view. He’s going to be a great President. Perhaps he might even be the President of Rudd’s New World Order.
steve @ 243
Brendan Nelson was a mixed bag on the merger. He was opposed to it at a federal level and at a Qld state level, he wanted the National Party to convert to the Qld Liberal Party instead of merging the two and renaming the new party the LNP.
Humphery B Flaubert
Your avatar has brighted up my Sunday
But I then got to thinking of Humphrey (as you do) and if it was him the “there’s a bear in there” song was about so I Googled and to my shock and horror I saw a photo of the sort of people he hangs out with.
http://www.humphreybear.com/faq_history.html
Hey Vera, which one’s Humphrey?
Bree i am a Tory but i think it is stupid we have two Conservative parties the non-Labour side of politics should be united…i know historically we needed 2 parties but we dont anymore and the Libs already hold more rural seats than the Nats who are only competetive in 2 States in Federal Elections…
Canada merged their 2 parties in 2003 and have been in Govt since 2006…
Menzies would be turning in his grave at the thought of a federal merger.
Lol Gary dunno but there’s a bear in there somewhere
Menzies wouldnt be happy at the state of the 2 conservative parties and they way they have been run into the ground…
Anyway times have changed since the 1950s…
I wouldn’t mind if the federal National Party just convert to the Liberal Party. What I am opposed to is renaming it the LNP. Lets just keep the name as the Liberal Party of Australia.
I knew it! Humphrey’s a neocon!
Either have the Nats merge into the Liberals or begin a new brand name if they dont agree…
The Liberal MPs won’t be happy with a name change. They want the name to stay as the Liberal Party of Australia forever and I support that, just like it was when Menzies created the party.
Bree true but the Non-Labor side of politics has changed its name many times…free-trade party, Commonwealth Liberal Party, Nationalists, United Australia Party so i hardly think a name matters what matters is unity…
Good point about unity, Glen. The problem with changing the name now is because the Liberal Party brand is already established with the electorate. John Howard is strongly against changing the name of the party for the reason I have just stated.
And when those guises of a conservative political party existed there were also other contemporaneous conservative parties.
So Glen, should the Nationals just abandon their policies because the Liberals know best on every issue?
No we should pool our ideas together and be a party for those who dislike the left leaning policies of the ALP…The Nats just arent a national political party like we are, we also hold more rural seats than them, but it would be good to have them join our fold either in the current Liberal Party or to form a quasi United Australia Party of old…
Pauline Hanson has already taken the name of United Australia Party (last election for the senate). I think Pauline Hanson should run as an independent in a marginal federal Labor seat in 2010.
Blair or Bonner she should run in.
I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for Pauline Hanson to run again, now that the government is moving to close the public funding loophole.
Boerwar
Posted Sunday, February 1, 2009 at 2:34 am | Permalink
“Ron @ 212 I seem to recall that you did warn us before he was elected that Obama had protectionist tendencies?”
yes Boerwar and wish was wrong as oz and less developed poor cpuntires will suffer most
Right now US has a free trade agreement with Canda NFTA & under it Canada exports about $5 billion of steel & iron a year Democrats including Obama just trashed an international Agreement
Th bill was passed by Dems controlled HOR already , and Dems controlled Senate ar looking at extending buy America to other manufactured materials In trade , USA whether Obama bush Dems or Repugs do not giv a st.uff about us aussies trade business , or any one else by th way…no USA fairness….no USA non discrimatory tariffs th US has at all…that’s pre this protectionist bill
I am sick of these apologists for Obama or any yankee saying today ‘geez it shows Obama’s “maturity” that he’s reviewing’
…err he and Democrats were already happy to PASS th rotten billin first place ! Th only reason why belatedley after th event there is to be a ‘review’ is because EU and China hav threatened outright trade war …EITHER of whom can bankrupt US completely , and quickly
Th Bill was passed out of selfish US politcans all Partys greed…and is being revewed because of a threat (by EU & China) These apologists for a ‘talker’ or for any yankee by th way shuld start remembering which damn country they live in , such US protectionism wuld devastate our economy , oz people.. reel aussie people farmers steel workers exporters unemployed etc etc , and make th GFC effect on oz worser by th way
What will happen ? spin , razmataz , talk, more talk , communicaes of good intents , of ‘aleged ‘watering down’ of th protectionist Bill, blah blah ….but behind that …in thVIP detail that counts and also vip in execution ‘by coincidense’ protectionism will rule roosts & ‘buy america’ will occur , but extent may now be hard to quantify
Oz farmers , beef and other exporters ar discriminatd against by US anti free trade laws/tariffs/quota’s ALREADY….so much for USA th land of free trade and free enterprise, err correction …. but only when it suits US interests
Th US mistake this time is to be so blatantley openly selfish and duuble standarded
So lets stop here ‘apologising’ for Obama for US selfish (& econamicly foolish) protectionism hurting oz , and also less developed poor countrys as well …pretty words of ‘change’ does not feed mouths , but fair non protectonist ‘Trade’ does…policys ar th issue
What are the details on that William?
Ron
I hear Hillary was a big supporter of the Buy America bill. She’s done a crap job as SOS of selling it to foreign countries though, hasn’t she. Obi must be thinking how long he must put up with her non-performance as SOS. And those Israelis and Palestinians are at it again. She looks like becoming the Alexander Downer of the US Government. Or Condi Rice II.
Dario, the Commonwealth Electoral Amendment (Political Donations and Other Measures) Bill proposes to limit public funding to expenses for advertising, polling and research, which was pretty much the case before the Keating government turned it into a free gift in 1995. The bill has been referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters, which is due to report on June 30.
She’s failed to bring peace to the Middle East and persuade other countries to back protectionist American trade policies in two weeks? Gee.
Wayne Swan has announced we’re in deficit, by the way.
I knew no one cared.
Well at least in Queensland you have a LNP owned by one man,who has his son running for office as well,welcome back Joh writ very large,how long if they ever win will those other hangovers from the happy days of Joh, the Gerrymander and even more crooked cops.
After all did not the billionaire say he knew what was right for Queensland,where have I heard those words before, kinda ring a bell
John, the problem the Liberals have always had in Queensland is their totally inept control of the National Party’s undemocratic tendencies. This is why they have so few members in the Queensland Parliament and so few voters come election time. This fiasco will damage the Liberal vote in Brisbane more than they know.
Ron
#263
“So lets stop here ‘apologising’ for Obama (add & Democrats) for US selfish (& econamicly foolish) protectionism hurting oz , and also less developed poor countrys as well”
Diogenes your #265 is still doing it……..using Hillary asides as a “ruse”
i just wonder if there ar any rusted on Obama deciples at all , actualy prepared to put fair trade , econamic commonsense or indeed this Countrys/less devloped poor ones financial well being …reely ahead of never critising Obama on policy
just don’t go to an Aussie steel town or beef town with that decipel nonsense
Ron, I must admit I agree with you on the protectionist tendencies of Obama. He made several times during the campaign promises that meant protectionism to deliver on them. I was hoping this was one of the things he might rise above once in office. However many of the key states that supported him, like Michigan and Ohio, are the places wanting the protection. I don’t think I have ever actually heard Obama speak in favour of free trade.
Ron, What does ‘decipel’ mean?
Just where have the Greens been hiding these last few days?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24992299-12377,00.html
They have been very slow to react.
“The Federal Opposition says the Government must show that it will not run budget deficits in the long-term.”
Why? Because of the mythology that says run up big surpluses, cut spending on services, ignore infrastructure bottleknecks, and sell off assets?
Further to the above, here is the relevant Obama/Biden campaign policy page:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
Check the section “Fair Trade”. Some of it is valid pointing out issues such as unfair competition with nations with weaker labor and environmental laws. But some is clearly protectionism, including plans to “renegotiate” NAFTA to benefit American workers more.
What evidence, Julie, everything I’ve ever read says the opposite is true?
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/02/julie-bishop-is-at-it-again.html
Julie Bishop must have the modelling.
http://greens.org.au/node/4870
http://greens.org.au/node/4902
I think it’s The Australian that’s slow.
the thought of Queensland going back to the Joh type of days is horrific, i was told quite a lot by Ray Whitrod, he and his wife Mavis became good friends with me after he resigned as Queenslands commissioner of police because Joh wanted him to turn a blind eye to the corruption in the police force, the man Ray wanted sacked who led the corruption eventually took over as commissioner and was eventually gaoled in the cleanout, Ray was one of the straightest men i ever knew, before Queensland he was commissioner of New Guinea police as well as Commonwealth police, when he left Queensland and came back here to Adelaide i was introduced to him by Bob Whitington head crime reporter for the Advertiser {Bob became a second dad to me} Ray used all of his contacts here to help start VOCS and he ended up as president of the organisation while it was still in the volunteer stage, Bob printed our newsletter, Ray had a tremendous brain, he was still teaching and studying till very near the end.
Ray told me a lot of what happened in Queensland and why he felt he had to resign rather than follow Joh’s orders, as i said he was one of the straightest men i knew, it would be dreadful for queensland to let one person or family have that much power again.
Ronster
1. Fair trade doesn’t exist anywhere. We all have tariffs. Just like the “luxury car tax” Rudd wanted. I like the idea of fair trade. But no country has it.
2. Economic common sense is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as “common sense” about economics. They cannot agree on anything. I agree there is a trend to fair trade being a good thing but lots of US economists are advising that they have too much of a good thing.
3. The financial well-being of Oz etc is not Obama’s job to protect. If his program improves the US at the expense of other countries, his voters will cheer for him.
It’s not like he didn’t campaign on a protectionist platform. I don’t like the policy any more than you do and I hope he abandons it to some extent at least. But it’s not hard to see where it came from.
As Peter Martin points out:
Its bizarre – I can only assume that Ms Bishop thinks that if you cut taxes business will employ more people and thus bingo more taxes? Of course, in this context, she is talking about business taxes – the ones Swan said will produce a $50 billion loss of revenue in 4 years.
But wtf does she mean by tax cuts increasing the tax base?
Well, I care… about your misrepresentation regarding the Swan’s “announcement”.
Swan has NOT announced we are IN deficit. He has announced we MAY have to GO INTO deficit.
Similarly, the IMF has NOT announced we are IN recession. They have announced we are LIKELY to GO INTO recession.
(Emphases – in both cases – mine)… any other time The Australian pooh-poohs the IMF. No, all of a sudden, it’s bloody gospel. You can’t help thinking there’s a second agenda going on here.
A deficit is a deficit. A recession is a recession. They both have definitions. The Australian economy has complied with NEITHER definition – either “deficit” or “recession”. I guess what I’m saying is: why bother to have a definition if it’s flaunted so casually?
There’s an unholy rush to be the first to say “I told you so” on these important economic matters. So much of a rush, in fact, that the announcements are premature. That is, the announcement precedes the eventuality.
That this can lead to the eventuality (as in “become a self-fulfilling prophecy”) is beside the point.I just don’t understand the bona fides of anyone, especially commenters here and most particularly economic journalists trying to show how big their cojones are by second guessing reality.
Well put BB (284).
Possibly the idea that cutting low income taxes will encourage people off welfare and into jobs. I don’t know how sound it is, but it does the rounds.
If the jobs exist.
Actually, they’re too different things. Completely. Swan has said that the next budget will be a deficit. The budget is brought down later this year, not today. So he can’t say “The budget is in deficit” when the budget doesn’t actually exist. But when the budget IS brought down, it will have a deficit. The IMF is predicting that there’s a strong chance Australia will go into recession. But it’s neither a certainty, nor imminent, at least 6 months away. Different things.
I made the same point earlier. Why are we all of a sudden marching to the tune of the IMF?
Which doesn’t appear to be the case, so Bishop is just spouting nonsense as usual.
Oz
It is social security not welfare.
Welfare is when people get money to support their lifestyle choices, we could start with the private health insurance rebate – that would save the Govt $16 billion over 4 years.
Maybe Julie Bishop got confused by extrapolation. Presumably as a former corporate lawyer reducing teh companie’s taxes increased HER income. She just assumed we are all in the same boat. Its a perfectly understandable mistake
Perhaps Julie Bishop still blieves in the ‘Trickle Down Effect’ theory of economics.
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2009/02/01/refuted-economic-doctrines-5-trickle-down/#more-4601
Maybe Henry Ergas has come up with an economic miracle where reducing taxes increases revenue.
I guess this is Ms Bishop’s reason for her bizarre comments.
Henry Ergas’ review of the taxation system, commissioned by Malcolm has reported its recommendations (it was due in late 2008) so they have a masterplan but have been snookered by events beyond their control.
So what to do? Tailor the report to suit the economic times – even if it sounds ludicrous?
To reply to Glen’s comments up the top, I think the Libs/Nats should merge to become the Conservative Party of Australia.
On 7 News tonight Swan was shown as saying that a short term deficit is what is needed to get through these difficult times. So what does 7 do with this? The reporter says “Sound familiar?” Then they show Keating saying “this is the recession we had to have”. How on earth are these two comments similar?
They also showed Bishop giving her spiel on the tax base then had Bowen asking her to explain the maths.
Good. That’d lose them a dozen or so seats.
The germline for the bizarre.
“Clearly the direction in which at least some countries are going is by having a very small number of marginal rates, and then having a tax-free threshold, or a tax credit at the lower end of the income,” he said. “That gives you a bigger base because you don’t have as many exemptions, but also a lower rate.”
Henry Ergas – September 17, 2008
Bob Brown is sounding more like Turnbull every day. To think I once used to put Greens 2nd after ALP
He’s against Rudds $4bill to cover overseas loans and sounds like siding with Libs to block it in the senate, his Greens say the Libs enviroment policies are better than the Govts and Ms Milne is forever bagging Rudd. Next thing we know it’ll be The LNPGreen party
.
Rudd sees death of neo-liberalism
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24987297-12250,00.html
KEVIN Rudd has put his ideological spin on the global crisis – arguing the great neo-liberal experiment of the past 30 years represented by Thatcher, Reagan, Greenspan and John Howard has failed.
Rudd has defined himself, his Government and his re-election strategy by declaring that only social democrats and the Labor Party can recruit state power to save capitalism.
——-
No doubt some PBers were in the trenches for days over Rudd’s “social capitalism” essay, so to save me some time, can someone direct me to where the most heated of discussions took place (thread and page number please!)
Are political opponents not supposed to do that?
Strangely enough Bob, I expected it to happen and it never did. All the excitement was at Larvatus Prodeo.
another gfc is here. Great fiasco cricket
Neo-liberals “now find themselves tied in ideological knots, in being forced to rely on the state they fundamentally despise to save financial markets from collapse”.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24984528-5001030,00.html
Love it!
Who cares what Mr Brown or Ms Milne have to say. Policy is not decided to appease unrepresentative swill.
reminds me of the Late Show (Working Dog version) sketch which involved Dee Margetts and Christabell Chamarett answering every “Question” with the words “Block It”
We could have the LGP or LNGP. I’m sure many Lib supporters would be excited about that.
ruawake, I know you’re joking, but the only Senators you could consider unrepresentative swill now are Steve Fielding, and to a lesser extent, Nick Xenophon.
Oz
Oops…mea culpa. Irony gone badly wrong.
GB, Liberal Geriatric Party?
The Senate says otherwise…
*The current composition of the Senate says otherwise.
Steve @ 223
LOL, with a shiver down my spine at the same time.
Forde should have told him that you normally find the separation of powers in a brown paper bag.
Why does Tasmania with the a population of 500,000 have the same number of Senators as NSW with a population of 6,889,100
Tasmania has one senator for 41,000 people, NSW one senator for 540,000 people.
Unrepresentative swill.
Oz she can say what she likes of course, just as I’m allowed to say I don’t agree with her, just as I don’t agree with almost everything Turnbull and Bishop say.
ALP and Libs here disagree all the time don’t we? Or are we only allowed to bag each other and not dare criticise the Greens?
Fins 303
Maybe Howard has taken to coaching our batsmen after retiring from politics? It would explain the form slump, and why so many of our batsmen are not playing straight. Yet ironically the Libs miss him in their team. They need someone to teach them how to bowl spin, rather than just bowl slow.
Check out Kerry-Anne Walsh’s rubbish:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/smokestacks-and-mirrors/2009/01/31/1232818793503.html
Apparently Labor is trying to “hide bad news”. I can’t see how that’s the case when Tanner, Swan and Rudd have regularly fronted the public to inform them about the budget, spending and projected growth. Most recently, Rudd talking about the IMF’s recession prediction and Swan telling us about the deficit.
It wasn’t the “Unrepresentative swill” part I was disagreeing with, but the “policy is not designed to appease them” part, when it is, and has to be.
You are, of course, allowed to do what you want. I was just surprised to see “bagging Rudd” as a criticism. Bit like criticising Rudd for “bagging Turnbull”.
What’s unrepresentative about Nick Xenophon? He polled 1.2 per cent of all votes cast, and holds 1.3 per cent of the seats (i.e. one out of 76).
Oz I’m probably a bit miffed as Greens seem closer to Libs than ALP nowadays and I once tended to agree with Greens policy much more. maybe it’s me getting to be a grumpy old woman
Touche William.
Oz
Policy is created becuase it is the correct thing to do – decided by the majority in the HoR.
If the Senate want to play silly buggers it is up to them. Of course a DD and joint sitting of both houses is the ultimate answer.
ruawake, because the lower house takes care of that. The Senate is the states’ house, it it meant to represent each state equally.
Personally I like Tasmania having six seats, their two Greens Senators almost makes up for the fact that they got 9.04% nationally in the Senate in 2007, yet they only hold 6.5% of Senate seats.
Really? My own opinion is that Labor and Liberal have converged, leaving The Greens behind.
A DD is the best chance of getting more minors and thus more obfuscation.
Oz, a DD is the best chance of ridding Fielding (Family First) and the excess 2004 Liberal Senators. A DD has a very good chance of producing a Labor-Green majority.
Regarding “unrepresentative swill” I have far more concern about Fielding than Xenephon.
As for seat allocations, its the inconsistency I object to. If we are going to have an upper house representing each State equally, then what about NT and ACT? The territories are an anomally. They should be States. Why should 320,000 ACT residents get 2 Senators when 450,000 Taswegians get 12? The Tasmanian population will soon be overtaken by the Gold Coast. Its a recipe for pork.
bob1234
Tassie has 12 senate seats.
Watching Nine news in Adelaide after the cricket and the coverage tonight was balanced. Swan was reported admitting the deficit but hardly as a shock. Meanwhile Turnbull and Bishop were shown contradicting each other in short succession (he said narrow tax cuts, she says broad) plus pointing out that neither explained how revenue wouldn’t fall.
ruawake, ok ok, I like Tasmania having six seats up for re-election at each election, like all other states.
Socrates
If it was not for Whitlam the ACT and NT would probably have no Senate representation.
Socrates, it was already hard enough getting them any worthy Senate representation. It was vehemently opposed at the time by, surprise surprise, the coalition!
Why don’t they just rename themselves to the COP. Conservative Opposition Party. Or better yet, the COFOSP, Conservative Opposition For Opposition’s Sake Party.
I’m with Bob on the DD. Despite posturing in the short term, Labor will never deliver its program with Liberal support. The right wing nutbars in Lib ranks will not do a deal. At least they can negotiate with Xenephon and the Greens.
Uhlman was having fun on the ABC again. Juxtaposing Rudd’s comments from two years ago with his calls for more regulation now.
As if that means anything.
Diog, as per usual, you are wRONg, again. Not only that, also full of shirt. Obama has been widely condemned at Davos for his failure of leadership in this instance. It makes Obi looks like Dubya the Third in Black and White Minstrel.
bob
A DD is a full Senate election all 12 get to put their bums on the line with a smaller quota.
Most Senators would freak at the prospect and thus pass legislation eventually. That is why the Senate should be abolished.
Let the Govt. govern, if they stuff up vote them out 3 years later. Howard’s majority in the Senate was a part of his loss.
ruawake, I humbly disagree. I strongly believe that a moderate third party provides for better legislative outcomes.
You can’t see any issues with that? There need to be some forms of checks and balances. If you’re getting rid of the Senate, at least introduce PR in the Reps.
Why Oz?
Cause that’s the only way the Greens get a gig?
Oz, abolishing the Senate and introducing PR in the reps? One cancels out the other and makes the exercise pointless. Except that minor parties are no longer just upper house checks and balances, there’s all the chance that they will get the final say on who forms government, and when they aren’t happy, bring the government down. Personally, I don’t like the idea of Canadian-style short-lived minority governments.
It’s not just about the Greens, it’s about making the House of Representatives… representative.
I wasn’t advocating it. I said if one was too to abolish to Senate, it should be replaced with a PR parliament.
There’s plenty of stable coalition governments in PR systems. Ironically, Canada is FPP.
The HoR is representative, the electoral commission keeps electorates about the same size.
Why won’t Bob or Christine stand for a HoR seat? Cause they get a 6 year gravy train in the swill chamber.
ruawake if Brown got elected to HOR he’d be a little fish in a big pond whereas now he can get noticed by aping Turnbull’s mob and threatening to block block block.
The arguement that minor parties in the Senate keep the B’s honest is crud, what legislation in the past decade has the Senate not eventually passed? What was the cost of this indulgence.
The Senate is a luxury we cannot afford – it should go the way of the Dodo.
So ruawake, you pine for the democratic paradise provided by Bjelke Petersen in a unicameral parliament?
It’s Time
As Anna Bligh has said, if you don’t like our decisions vote us out. If you like the idea of scores of Senators playing silly buggers with their ancilliary staff wasting money for zero effect fair enough.
A fair amount actually…
If you get rid of the Senate you may as well get rid of the Parliament altogether.
Wot???? Come on Loser tell me? GST? – Unfair Dismissal? – Refute my argument or become irrelevant – like the Senate.
The Labor anti-Green attitude in the Senate is severely misplaced. Labor does not have a majority. That is a fact. It has to negotiate it’s bills. That is also a fact. The Greens are not absolutists who are blocking everything thrown at them, quite the opposite. In most cases they’ve been the first to offer a compromise solution.
Fuelwatch immediately springs to mind.
I’ll get a full list for you in minutes.
Ruawake, please don’t call people “loser”. Particularly when you’re talking crap. Unfair dismissal was passed in the very unusual circumstance of a Coalition Senate majority. Abolish the Senate, and the Coalition will get to govern like that every time they’re in office. You might also recall that the GST would have included food, had it not been for the Senate.
A couple more… I can go on…
Family and Community Services Legislation Amendment (Australians Working Together and other 2001 Budget Measures) Bill 2002
Family and Community Services Legislation Amendment (Disability Reform) Bill (No. 2) 2002
Family and Community Services Legislation Amendment (Disability Reform) Bill (No. 2) 2002 [No. 2]
Marriage Amendment Bill 2004
Migration Legislation Amendment (Further Border Protection Measures) Bill 2002
Migration Legislation Amendment (Further Border Protection Measures) Bill 2002 [No. 2]
National Health Amendment (Pharmaceutical Benefits—Budget Measures) Bill 2002
Sex Discrimination Amendment (Teaching Profession) Bill 2004
Superannuation (Surcharge Rate Reduction) Amendment Bill 2003
Trade Practices Amendment (Small Business Protection) Bill 2002
Trade Practices Amendment (Small Business Protection) Bill 2002 [No. 2]
Workplace Relations Amendment (Codifying Contempt Offences) Bill 2003
Workplace Relations Amendment (Compliance with Court and Tribunal Orders) Bill 2003
Workplace Relations Amendment (Secret Ballots for Protected Action) Bill 2002
Workplace Relations Amendment (Secret Ballots for Protected Action) Bill 2002 [No. 2]
Workplace Relations Amendment (Termination of Employment) Bill 2002
Workplace Relations Amendment (Termination of Employment) Bill 2002 [No. 2]
Oz
My point is that the Govt. you know the guys with the Majority in the HoR, be it Labor or Liberal, have eventually managed to get their legislative agenda passed.
All the Senate has done is delay the inevitable. At a cost approaching a billion dollars per year.
I repeat, what Govt. legislation has not eventually passed the Senate in the past decade ?
Keep in mind, those are only bills that were negatived. Many more will have had amendments made to them that will have solved a lot of real life problems.
Not to forget the Senate committee process being really quite good at focusing on legislation, letting people get their voices heard and, in some case, highlighting problems in legislation that need to be fixed. Governments quite often take these recommendations on board.
Wiiliam
Apologies my reference to loser was ltep’s former persona of Lose The Election Please.
ltep
How many of those bills eventually passed?
The Parliament of Australia enacts:
1 Short title
This Act may be cited as the Trade Practices Amendment (Small Business Protection) Act 2002.
Yep it passed.
Because every government wins a Senate majority sooner or later.
Hopefully that doesnt happen for the current one
William
That is exactly my point – every government wins a Senate majority sooner or later. So eventually every Govt. gets its legislative agenda passed.
Is this worth the billions of bucks it took to play games in the Senate? Why not just hold the current Govt. to account if they pass dodgy legislation they get voted out?
The electorate keep the B’s honest, not the Senate.
ruawake
The electorate can only gets the chance to keep the bastards honest every three years, and even then they only get a choice between two sets of bastards.
Finns
Was it something I said
Would the Liberal Party have lost the last election if they did not have a majority in the Senate?
What we should do is kick out all the politicians except one. They all vote on party lines in the HOR anyway, so what’s the point of having more of them? That would save an enormous amount of money.
Did Whitlam?
Just out of interest has anyone heard any more news on electoral reform?
MHW
(who never understood the whole “misleading party names” thing – Liberals for Forests weren’t misleading – their policies were Liberal in every way, except on the environment)
Yep but it required a joint sitting of both houses.
Eeer, that’s not a Senate majority. That was a majority in a joint sitting of the parliament. When did Hawke and Keating enjoy Senate majorities?
Is Bishop in danger of being dumped from her position after her channeling of Reagan and advocacy of trickle down tax cuts, otherwise known as voodoo economics. Turnbull and Bishop are becoming large target for the government when parliament resumes. Surely some of Bishop’s party are getting nervous over her ongoing weak performance in her shadow portfolio.
Trickle down tax cuts has been described as when the rich piss on you.
Ruawake makes good points re the senate, even Whitlam got all his bills following the DD and his govt was only brought down by supply being refused, not any other legislation.
The senate is good for hearing greviances and objections to bills but this could be done just as well in the reps.
Only if the Reps was reformed to allow it hear any such grievances or objections. And why would the government listen to them anyway if they had a majority?
Are there really people who come to this site who don’t understand that a Senate majority will be a once in a century event after its enlargement in 1984? Incredible.
Never – but what legislation did they fail to get through the parliament?
The cost of having the Senate is trivial in the overall scheme of things.
I reckon it’s a pretty good idea to have one, on the whole. We don’t want to have an elected dictatorship.
Got an Australia Card in your wallet, Ruawake?
Big call William.
Make it 50 years then. The assertion that every government will enjoy a Senate majority at some point is the dumbest thing I have seen argued on this site in quite some time.
The Australia Card was not defeated by the Senate.
The Hawke government was returned, but still without a Senate majority. The Australia Card bill was reintroduced in September and a vote in the Senate was planned for 7 October. During that period, a retired former Deputy Secretary of the Attorney-General’s Department, Ewart Smith (1920-1991), pointed out in letters to newspapers that the Australia Card bill was unworkable because the implementation date was not part of the legislation, and would have to be a matter of a separate regulation. Even if the bill had been passed – whether by the usual process or in a joint sitting – and given Royal Assent, the opposition parties could still have combined to disallow the regulation, thus preventing the act from ever being implemented. John Stone, a former Secretary to the Treasury who had been elected in July as a National Party senator from Queensland, contacted Smith, confirmed the detail, and brought this information to the attention of his party. The coalition embarrassed the Hawke government by bringing the matter to light during Question Time on 23 September. After acknowledging that, even if passed, it was likely the bill could not be implemented, Hawke decided to abandon the Australia Card bill.
If they wanted to save money they could get rid of the Democratic henchmen. You know, those bullies of the black rod. Surely, technology has moved on from banging on doors.
And the separate regulation to which you refer would have been impossible because why?
Ruawake -
http://www.anu.edu/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/OzCard.html
“During 1985-86 the Federal Government developed a proposal for a national identification scheme. Following increasing public concern about the scheme’s implications, the Australia Card Bill was defeated in the Senate in November 1986. ”
“On 2 April 1987, the Australia Card Bill was rejected by the Senate for the second time.”
Diogenes
Your #282 unfortunateley is a lite feather slap to Obama , with th rest of blog soothing generality words as if such overt Obama/Dems protectionism is not too bad
At risk is $500 million of our Steel exports alone Amost evry Country in th world has condemnd this latest proctionism Bill as gross Trade discriminaton I thought
I’d thought i’d get similar condemnation from Obamamaites not a fluffly feather , and from th bleachers SILENSE indeed This is not a re-ref of US electon ,we ar into adverse protectioniuist policy as reality policy that I’d pre talkd about for months that this guy was a reel trade protectionist & youse just not then interested Well we ar at th now now , th realtiy of that protectonisms & it will hurt We need to hope it gets trashed 100% Th potential econamic consequenses of this ar greater than GFC on us , and indeed othr Countrys
You say
“1.Fair trade doesn’t exist anywhere.”
Wrong , World trade operates within some unfair practises hense WTA negotiatons (that US & EU ar selfishly holding up improving)….
So your ‘soothing’ statement hides that this Obama/Dems protectonist Bill wuld compltely destroy any reasonable levels of inter World trade & create at best a lite depression , so now stop soothing copying Obama’s “blank blank’ delivery
“2. Economic common sense is an oxymoron”.
Suppose ‘ozymoron’ is a qualifcaton of comonsense …you cann’t qualify , because that Inter Country trade relyies on ‘balanse’ of each Country’s restrictons , So your ‘soothing’ statement hides that this if you throw it dramatic out of kilter like a merry go around you just fall off And World inta trade colapses done & econ system disntergates with Woirld poverty & unemployment increasing , avoiding that over balancing is calld reel econamic commonsense
So your ‘soothing’ statement this time did sounded good , but only as …oxy someting
“3. The financial well-being of Oz etc is not Obama’s job to protect”
err , then why stick up for someone whose Bill will econamicly devastate our own oz country …ie if you’re saying its ok for Obama as an Americon to selfishly look after USA and stuff th rest of th world , then apply th same principal yourself !… stick up for oz against Obama to look after oz Just say without qualification that th protectonism Bill stinks , without qualifcation , it hurts oz too much
Finaly , th Bill will get ‘spun’ as waterd down as it will hurt US via retaliation just as much , but protectionist executon will now occur iresepctive of ‘spin’ against our oz intersts Such gross protctionism is not just wrong its completeley wrong wrong , and so buter cupping can make it look for Obama/Dems ‘not too bad’
357
Because every government wins a Senate majority sooner or later.
Maybe I misunderstood??
Oz, the Australia Card Bill was the trigger for the 1987 double dissolution, and thus could have been passed at a joint sitting.
ruawake
The Senate voted it down to force a DD. But incompetence was the final nail in it’s coffin.
BTW I think we were bloody lucky to avoid an Australia Card Mark II under Howard with the threat of terrorism as a pretext. He certainly mused about it a few times. The bill would have been the “You are an UnAustralian Terrorist Sympathiser and Welfare Fraud if You Oppose This Act”
Okay, that’s actually quite funny, in a Joseph Heller kind of a way. Well done.
I had something to do with Nick Bolkus at the time. May I suggest he was not going anywhere after.
For those who need to know about Voodoo economics……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzLNc7IZU14
So it was a DD trigger but it was never defeated in the Senate? How does that work?
I’d forgotten most of that detail ruawake but a similar story is here:
http://austlii.edu.au/itlaw/articles/GGOzcard1-Lessons.html
Maybe it wasn’t re-introduced in a joint sitting?
Looks like the war of words between Bligh and Palmer is heating up, can only help Bligh.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/bligh-not-intimidated-by-mining-magnate-20090201-7uqp.html
Oz, the legislation was defeated in the Senate; it became the trigger for the DD; it could then have been passed, but before this could happen it became apparent that further regulation would have been required which the Senate could have blocked, so the government abandoned the whole thing. By that time there was a huge public revolt against the idea anyway, which for some reason there hadn’t been before the election was held.
Peter Garrett was a very effective catalyst for the post-election anti-Australia Card campaign. I always felt his timing in this respect had a lot to do with the fact that Midnight Oil’s Diesel and Dust came out in August 1987.
Castle the Liberals only hold two seats in Brisbane and with Nicholls pushed to the front leading the charge against democratic principles, they might get their representation halved. It would be funny if Flegg was the only Liberal left after this dustup.
Whooa, proper psephy arguments going on. Very informative, too. But just dropped by to say thank you for earlier heads up about antipsychotics , lithium and heat related deaths. State and national action will ensue.
Steve: That depends on whether they manage to not stuff up their preselection in Indooroopilly. Much as I’d like to see the Greens win a seat over in Qld, that one’s a gimme for the Liberals. Uh, I mean LNP.
Steve
Strange co-incidence, ABC had a program on tonight, Speers and Hitler, not that I’m drawing any paralells. But Bligh may have to be careful, I thought that a lib pollie had to pay compo after making similar remarks about a union bloke running for a labor seat in NSW, may have been Roberston?
Packer backed Howard in 98 but it was more of a backhander by saying he didn’t feel that labor had spent enough time in opposition.
Thanks William.
Pity they are now the LNP as even if he was the only lib he may still have had trouble securing the leadership.
OZ
Th Australia Card legislation WAS gonig to introduced after th DD in 87 , but th damn thing did not even hav a comencement date So Govt could hav introduced it , Senate would hav then rejeted it , then at a DD joint sitting th Bill wuld hav passed it and lol we had a Austrlia Card approved….but could never start as there was no start date , like reel bright
Now to get th date put in required a separate Senate approval again and , that date commencement date bit wuld hav ben rejected by Senate
So Govt then wasn’t goin to hav a SECOND DD , especialy as polls had then shown about 60% against by then , why 60% was just irational
Hah, the best article of the year.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/01/2479451.htm
“Ms Bishop said during an interview on Sky News the package should include wide ranging tax cuts.
“Broad and sweeping tax cuts that will increase the tax base and increase tax revenues,” she said.”
Bowen asks how tax cuts increase revenue.
“A spokeswoman for Ms Bishop says tax cuts will lead to more economic activity, which will broaden the tax base and increase revenue.”
Good clarification, spokeswoman. I hope this gets picked up and shredded in the papers tomorrow.
“But Mr Bowen says Ms Bishop has lost all credibility.”
Again.
HSO
Here’s a Medical Alert that New York’s Office of Mental Health Sent out last year to all their mental health program directors during a heat wave. It’s even got a pdf of a patient brochure all about heat illnesses.
Medical Alert – Increased Risk Of Heat Illness To Persons Taking Antipsychotic Medications
http://www.omh.state.ny.us/omhweb/heat/
I find it difficult to see just what the bunfight between Palmer and Bligh has to do with Nicholls in any official capacity. He is not Leader of the LNP, Deputy Leader, Shadow Attorney General or anything else even closely associated with the situation.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/legislativeAssembly/documents/memberBio/NichollsTimothy.htm
You said today Q’ld Libs electoral problams were somewhat due to Nats undemocratic practises I’ve always thought it was due to from joh on of Q’ld Libs were dispectd & with all Nats policys in Govt , Libs almost invisible , and no hint of Libs separate normal policys , so surburbs saw Libs as Nats Merger just will reinforse that perseption to Labor’s gain
“IMF endorses Treasurer’s deficit plan as “the medicine the country needs” to fight global financial crisis”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bitter-pill-for-recession/2009/02/01/1233423045473.html
If Julie Bishop and Malcolm Turnbull are having trouble understanding what they are about or cant get intelligent advisers maybe a quick Google might give them same information as is available to everyday Australians.
Bishop is a first class goose. Turnbull is either being opposite for its own sake or he really is an economic incompetent or more likely supports solutions that pays most of the money to LNP mates.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/bang-for-the-buck-wonkish/
Economists, ideology, and stimulus
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/19/economists-ideology-and-stimulus/
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/another-temporary-misunderstanding/
ruawake, Howard’s IR reforms in his first term would have been MUCH harsher if the Democrats left it unaltered.
If only they let them go through, then maybe Howard would’ve lost in 1998, on a WorkChoices like backlash.
Socrates
#273 “Ron, I must admit I agree with you on the protectionist tendencies of Obama…..I don’t think I have ever actually heard Obama speak in favour of free trade.”
Missed your post Socrates , diog sidetrackd me at time
One Obama quote last year:
“It’s (‘free trade’) a game where trade deals, like NAFTA, ship jobs overseas and force parents to compete with their teenagers to work for minimum wages at the local fast-food joint or at Wal-Mart.” Quite protectionast
Obama voted in US Senate against th CENTRAL American Free Trade Agreement , has threatened to pull US out of North American Free Trade Agreement (Mexoco & Canada) unless they agree to renegotiate terms , criticised ‘trade’ agreement with China & has stated reluctanse about trade deals overall
So my cautions last year he was a protectionist were based on this sort of bits , and th result wuld be damage oz econamicly , and also less developd poor countriess NOW of coursr there is th even worse Obam/Dems protectionist Bill passed , AND one consequence is th NAFTA Treaty has been ½ torn up
Econamicly for world trade & oz , it would be a reel disaster Quite unsure if this effect been well reportd and understood widely
But what about th ‘change’ message to World as well , “a new America” of ‘moral authority’ but surely not replasing th bush gun/tortures with Uncle Sam’s dollars taken from poor/undev Countrys …because such protectionst policys will most devastate poor and less developded Countrys , what message does it send them about th Usa internet tells people direct these days
Also , what mesage does it send about CC mitigation at Copenhaggen of US lack of selfishness , seeing like protectionist thoughts that obama had shown before his electon , I also highlited his non support for ratifying Kyoto at all
Somone can say they suport CC , promise/introduce environmentel or R E oil dependense reducing measures , but if there is not con currently a unqualified comitment to Kyoto CC then such “aparent” US CC policys becomes reely US finacialy self interst based …and not CC based , meaning Co2 mitigaton may or may not be a priority or outcom
So three policy messages concern here , econamic World trade & us , less develeped Countrys fair trading & social well being and Copenhaggen climate change We need to hope for rethoughting on all 3
.
recent science study “shows how changes in surface temperature, rainfall, and sea level are largely irreversible for more than 1,000 years after carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions are completely stopped” Recently mentioned polar ice age meltin quicker info , now this …another eg of CC damage is long term
Steve,
(221 222 223)
Well said sir. I used to work in the Brisbane head office of a major bank and was threatened by Joh on a number of occasions. As soon as Flo is six feet under I’ll be able to tell the real story of why Joh didn’t take his superannuation!
Judith,
Nice to see someone honouring the memory of Ray Whitrod. There’s a man, and his wife, who stood fast against the most appalling pressure from the Nationals to allow them to continue to receive their kickbacks from brothels and sly groggers.
TP @ 404
The comparison is generally grossly unfair. It is very unkind to geese of any class. They are a noble bird and proud of mien. Pairs show devotion and care for one another and for their goslings. Geese do not do stupid things as a matter of course, and have never ruined an economy.
Unlike a certain other organism, when they do honk, they do it for right reasons, which includes saving their country, as geese did when they warned the Romans that a mob of baddies were trying to break in.
Geese do have one small failing. It is their eyes. They have a weird kind of fixed stare…
Steve @ 401
Maybe it is an old professional reflex thing … he can’t help himself when there is a scent of blood in the water.
The problem with a liberal/national marriage is that rural socialists invariably end up getting right up the noses of the hard dry ecorats. Deals can be done when in power, but sleeping in the same bed becomes intolerable when everybody wants to go ‘pure’, that is to say, when they are out of office.
The Federal libs and nats right now are a case in point of the latter.
ruawake
Posted Sunday, February 1, 2009 at 7:05 pm | Permalink
Socrates
If it was not for Whitlam the ACT and NT would probably have no Senate representation.
Nor would the ACT people have had the same HOR representation – by that I mean someone representing the people of the ACT and having full representation in the HOR and not just being allowed to vote only on matters dealing with the ACT.
Not quite – the member for Australian Capital Territory was granted full voting rights in 1968.
If you want to save many billions on democracy and on octuple handling (more if you count duplication), I suggest the following:
1. Get rid of the Senate and get rid of the state and territory governments. They are sheltered workshops for far too many incompetents delivering absolutely nothing but drivel.
2. Combine councils until you get a reasonable critical regional mass.
3. Get rid of this ridiculous business of having a GG and 7 (or whatever) governors, their housing, and their staff. These gladhanders don’t do zip for the economy. Do not replace them with a president. Presidents cost money and they invariably get into conflict with PMs and parties who got elected some other way than the president. The conflicts delay decisions and cost money.
4. All elections on the same day. Fixed terms of five years. Saves boodles on elections. (As a logjam breaker, PM’s would have an option of going early but they would personally be banned from competing in the following early election. This should just about stop the rot of going early. I can hardly imagine any of the ones we have had since federation really falling on their swords for the good of the country.)
5. Have one national health system, one national legal system, one national education system and so on, and so forth. They are only for 21 million people, plenty of countries do many more people on one system. Currently the ACT, TAS and the NT combined have what? About 1 million people. They do not need three systems of anything, let alone three systems for everything. What a dreadful waste.
6. Absolutely no duplication of responsibilities anywhere, anytime. Duplication would be a criminal offence. Citizens would be able to report duplications to an independent Anti Duplication Authority. Offending politicians and bureaucrats would get a mandatory jail sentence. Remissions of sentence would be given to those jailbirds who spot duplications elsewhere.
7. Regional councils would do the usual town stuff – rubbish, local roads, drains and such like. Regional reps would be paid, full time folk. Development rules would be set nationally, once, so we don’t have this silly business of states or regions competing by bribery and we don’t have the silly state-based business of beggar thy neighbour when it comes to the national interest.
8. Drop out of the Commonwealth while we are at it. Gabfests, ineffective diplomacy and a second-rate sporting association. Any small useful bits can be hived off and become part of our normal foreign affairs business. Saves many more millions.
Now, apart from the pleasure of seeing a whole lot of unrepresentative people trying to find, and even do, productive work…
… if I had the many billions thus saved, I would spend them on…
Thank you to those of you who pointed out the possible dangers of too much heat and a certain class of drugs. I was worried about an elderly family member and the extreme heat, but was also able to warn another family member about the drug/heat issue.
Good to see, HSO, that you are on the case as well and that you will be able to get the authorities to systematise the public warnings.
Three cheers for the Bludgers.
Not sure how accurate the article is, but those who are hoping that China might be the locomotive that drags away from the abyss may want to read the following:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24993116-2703,00.html
Oh dear, what a mess. Springborg is ‘laid low’ but then again he has said before that he is not keen on working on weekends. The other five days in the week don’t tend to produce a lot of policy either.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24993529-3102,00.html
Steve @ 417
They would have to be goners. Brown paper bag manufacturers will be disappointed.
The story, and the accompanying photograph, sort of reminds me of B grade movies about good ol’ boy Louisiana politics.
BTW, would non-disclosure of donations, if any, be a criminal act?
Has the cat got his tongue, does he have laryngitis or is there a lack of leadership in the Liberal National Party and the lawsuit is just a red herring trying to distract everyone?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24994049-5006786,00.html
Boerwar, the state rules were basically explained here:
Steve
Thank you.
Good to see all this stuff coming out so the voters can make a considered decision.
Springborg recently decided that he won’t be using the Palmer helicopter and plane during the election campaign due to these laws running the risk of him exceeding the limit.
An article by Ros Gittins here explaining why the $4B Ruddbank is a sensible precaution, and may not cost that much anyway:
http://business.smh.com.au/business/from-rates-to-ruddbank-this-dip-is-distinct-20090201-7uv5.html
There is no good economic reason to oppose this legislation, and whoever does will earn the ire of both major banks and the building sector.
The Asia Pacific head of the IMF has endorsed Australia’s intention to go into deficit funding to fight the recession. Yet Turnbull opposes it? So hard to decide who is the more credible source ….
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/02/2479518.htm?section=justin
Can’t we hate Turnbull and the IMF?
Virginia Trioli just asked Julie Bishop how she would return the budget to surplus, if she was in government.
“Tax cuts”.
Hate to say this, but I did tell you so. How many times I have said that how come we are in deficit yet and what is wrong with the Rudd Govt. I am glad that everyone is now jumping on the bandwagon including Heather Ridout of the Australian Industry Group, who said on ABC radio this morning: “We should ask the Govt why we are not in deficit”.
btw Layoff Turnbull, you are wasting your time and energy. Turnbull represents the badly damaged brand of the free market capitalism that has brought the world this misery. He represents the indecency of rewarding themselves $18B of bonus while taking the people’s billions to repair the ruins they have created. The punters know and see thru this already, he has no future. So let talk about something more interesting than Turnbull bashing everyday and moment.
Oz, Julie Bishop is way out of her depth and will be lucky to see the week out with the embarrassing nonsense coming out of her mouth in the past couple of days. Once the heat and pressure of parliament is applied this week, something will have to be done to regain some sort of stability.
Ronster and Finns
I’m beginning to wonder about Obama. Tom Daschle’s appointment in Health looks pretty grim (Greenwald tears him apart on that here http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ )
And economists like Krugman and Stiglitz are heavily criticising the “Cash for Trash” gifts to crap banks, where the seemingly never-ending largesse of the US taxpayer continues to prop up the seemingly never-ending incompetence of bankers, allowing them to still pay themselves $18B in bonuses despite bankrupting their company. Can governments afford $2.2 Trillion to subsidise the banks terrible performance without asking anything in return. It’s got beyond a joke now.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a.GJvNfWtCX0&refer=home
Ronster
I said that there is a case for short-term protectionism in the setting of a global slump (as long as it’s short term only). And now I’ve found a Nobel Prize winning economist to agree with me.
A hypothetical government (eg Germany…) could sit back and do nothing but export more to countries that have put in place a stimulus package to improve their economy. It would be better for their budget. And they wouldn’t be helping other country’s economies improve either. But a degree of protectionism could “make the world as a whole better off” as everyone would have to stimulate their own economy.
Protectionism and stimulus (wonkish)
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/protectionism-and-stimulus-wonkish/#more-1333
Diogenes whatever happened to the concept of a bank to take over the toxic debt currently on the balancesheet of banks throughout the world?
Steve
That has been discussed by Krugman and elsewhere. Its a lousy deal for whoever is that bank. Its worse than the bailouts because you suffer the same loss, the bank gets off scott-free, and you don’t even get a chance to recoup some of the money when the rest of teh bank performs better.
Socrates
Wasn’t there talk of the World Bank running the “Big Bad Bank”?
The financial disclosure returns are up on the AEC’s website.
When did the AMWU shift allegiances to The Greens? They gave three times more to them than to the ALP. The ETU donates exclusively to The Greens now and even the CFMEU (albeit the construction division) gave them $40,000.
In 2005/6 The Greens received $0 from zero unions.
In 2006/7 they received $70,000 from two unions.
In 2007/8 they received $240,000 from three unions.
Link:
http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.au/
Julie Bishop is a bit stingy, she only gave $1,500 to the Libs.
Oz
That’s a co-incidence. I was just reading about the CFMEU being sucessfully sued in 2004 by Greenies for false imprisonment in Beech Forest. The logging industry had to bail out some of the CFMEU’s $2.2M costs. Looks like they are playing nicely now.
Dio
Yes the World Bank was one of various options suggested for teh Big Bad Bank. But whoever it is, the problem is the same. You are pooling the debts but the banks who caused them get to separate their other (valuable) assets so that there is no claim on getting a return off the (now good) bank to pay back the cost. It all but guarantees that the money stumped up for the bad bank is a loss. Making it the world bank just means that non-American taxpayes wind up paying for (mainly) US caused bank losses.
Needless to say unless I have misunderstood the concept I’m not a fan. I think the “bad bank” concept is just spin for abailout deal where the guilty banks walk away without any obligations. I far prefer the Swedish model – buy them out then sell it back. I.e. make any capital injections in return for equity.
“IMF endorses Treasurer’s deficit plan as “the medicine the country needs” to fight global financial crisis”
That’s a worry.
With friends like that ……
Pratt Holdings Pty Ltd
2004/05
ALP: $108,880
LP: $205,000
NP: $27,500
2005/06
LP: $200,000
2006/07
LP: $200,000
2007/08
ALP: $100,000
LP: $200,000
On the 9th of October last year Stephen Mayne wrote:
One issue which no-one has yet explored is the dithering of Peter Costello’s promise to lock-up cartel crooks and the size of Dick Pratt’s donations to the Liberal Party.
Costello is very close to ACCC chairman Graeme Samuel who is genuinely passionate about stamping out cartel behaviour. So when Samuel launched his big jihad on cartels in 2003-04, Costello promised to change the law but then never delivered. Did number one Liberal donor Dick Pratt influence this?
Correction: Stephen Mayne’s article appeared in Crikey on Oct 9 2007 (not last year).
Trubbell at Mill @ 408
Joh decided to not take his super pay-out?! I’m flabbergasted. I can’t begin
to imagine what would have been the reason behind that seeing as he had very
serious financial problems during his last few years.
Rudd is live on Sky trying to get us into deficit and recession.
The Govt tax receipts to drop by $115B
Looks like there is another “Blog War” raging. Our good friend Bolter is right in the thick of it.
I think that this one has a good chance of turning into a “lulu” and could run for a while yet.
http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/andrewbolt/index.php/couriermail/comments/dumbest_green_blogger_in_australia/
http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/greenblog/index.php/couriermail/comments/at_least_he_got_my_name_right/
It’s amazing just how passionate people can get over a discussion on Climate3 Change & Global Warming!
Steve
Joh made that super promise way back in the 70s when it helped him politically and nobody thought he would stay in office so long, or be foregoing so much cash. Needlesss to say he regretted it, as evidenced by his subsequent efforts to get Flo into the Federal Senate and be able to rely on her payout. Of course if you read the Fitzgerald inquiry report you might also conclude he found other ways to make money.
As an aside on climate change, one thing that has become apparent in the current Adelaide heat wave – how accurate the weather forecasts have become. I remember not so long ago they would only publish 3 day forecasts, then five day. Now even the 7 day forecast has proven remarkably accurate. It just goes to prove that, skeptics aside, the models they use to predict weather and climate are now pretty good.
News Ltd is cashing in on the Blog War.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24995335-3102,00.html
Socrates @ 444
But why did he stick to his ‘word’ 10 or more years later? Of course he was as on very good terms with the brown paper bag delivery men but when a super payout worth hundreds of thousands of $s is up for grabs I’d expect him to take it with both hands.
Looks like we will be in deficit for, at least, in the next 4 years.
Glen, Turnbull will romp in at 2010. If they put Cossie back in the next few months, Rudd has no choice but to resign. Cossie will in the Lodge by Xmas 09 and we will be back in surplus by 2010.
I think it’s a sign of progress that the climate change “debate” has been relegated to the depths of Andrew Bolt blog and the Courier-Mail’s blog.
Thought I’d better post this before Finns and Ron find it.
Renditions get Obama’s approval
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24996281-2703,00.html
Now that’s out the way, we don’t need to discuss the matter further.
If we go into recession the Libs should win back some seats in 2010 but the ALP will still hold on most likely…almost like a 1998 election (though without such massive swings)…
Philp Morris Limited
2007/08
ALP: $0
LP: $96140
NP: $42700
When asked “how much influence does $96140 buy?”, the Shadow Minister for Health and Ageing, Peter Dutton, became agitated. He said, “there’s nothing unhealthy, in an open and multi-party democratic system, about individuals and groups supporting the political process. There’s nothing at all unhealthy about that. I mean, and in some cases, I mean … what sort of question is that anyway? What have been smoking!”
Coca Cola Amatil
2007/08
LP (national): $70,000
LP (NSW): $250
There you go Barry, go and get yourself an ice-cream …
Trubbell–408
i was very lucky and honoured to be able to call Ray and Mavis my friends, by the way Flo’s scones couldnt have ever been as good as Mavis’s.
I wonder what effect ABC Learning’s $50K donations had on that whole fiasco.
I apologise for linking this rubbish but we should all be reminded just how bad our last Foreign Minister was. Downer lists his favourite two leaders as Truman and Thatcher (he doesn’t like Churchill).
His least favourite seems to be Rudd whose “rantings” about Reagan, Thatcher and Howard are
OMG!! Should we all say goodbye to Rudd while we’ve still got the chance??
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,,24994118-22202,00.html
Inner Westie
Can you post a web link to this source of enlightenment on the inner workings of the “democratic” (one dollar, one value) process.
Inner Westie
I’d love to see donation figures on:
Manildra
BHP/Rio/coal mining oligarchs (remembering who denied climate change was real)
ABC Learning
ABB (who kept their grain monopoly)
Dio, Dolly only gets a gig on mondays because one of the editors owes him big time, his poncy fatuous remarks are only good for a giggle, saying that i never bother to read them.
Steve 447
I can’t remember the exact details but I think Joh actually signed away his rights to the scheme. I recall he made a big deal out of doing it in a fairly binding way.
Piece of piss, Socrates. Just whack ‘em in here.
So now we’ve got our annual update on rort that we call democracy, any got ideas about donation reform?
What are the con’s of a blanket ban on private donations and relying purely on a public funding model? As I understand, in the countries were this is the case, there has been some public discontent. But I don’t know the precise reasons.
ABC going all out beating the Coalition’s drum before parliment resumes to try and give Turnbull a boost.
The midday report was all doom and gloom with Bishop, Minchen, Abbott and Joyce all getting air time one after the other with rubbish comments like, Rudd must say how he’ll get us back in surplus, and the stimulus was all spent on pokies etc. I thought they were going to let Joyce stammer and stutter on all program, then Bob Brown had a go. ALP’s Adams from Tassie got to say the next stimulus should be on big infrastructure projects and ABC tried to give the immpression that he was critisising Rudd. What happened to balanced reporting?
Next they went on about how the dollar, stockmarket and house prices were falling. A wonder they didn’t say the sky is falling head for the hills, may be tomorrow?
And weren’t the Libs saying only last month that house prices would skyrocket because of the increase in first homeowners grant?
Diog, i heard on ABC AM this morning that some of the details of Obama’s US$850B stimulus package are really weird. Such as: $800m to buy cars for the Govt, plus there also a large number of special handouts to some 150 different federal and state programs. The general feeling is that this is a rather piecemeal approach rather than a comprehensive strategic re-tooling and re-shaping of the USA Economy.
Also the packages was passed in the Congress without a single Repug support. What ever happened to new politics and new Washington?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/28/obama-im-confident-stimul_n_161654.html
and thanks for doing my job for me:
Dont tell me it’s a case of sending a boy to do a man’s job.
Oz, according to the recent electoral reform green paper, such a measure would entail the following pros:
• the elimination of any perception or risk of undue influence;
• possibly easier entry for new parties into the electoral process, subject to the level and scheme adopted for public funding.
And the following cons:
• this approach requires a much higher level of Government intervention in and funding of the political process;
• an increased cost to government and hence the taxpayer;
• a reduced incentive for parties to seek and maintain a broad-based membership;
• the possibility of constitutional difficulties in relation to the maintenance of the constitutionally prescribed system of representative and responsible government, although once again a carefully crafted scheme may be possible.
Finns
I suppose it’s a case of sending a man to do a woman’s job.
Fortunately Ron has agreed that renditions were Hillary’s domain. I can’t imagine that snatching someone from a foreign country and flying them to be tortured by a co-operative third country is particularly legal.
Our own version of the Shame of Wall St $18B Bonus. Just as well that i have never touched this B&B (Bdust & Bshirt) stuff.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/babcock-execs-at-the-trough-20090202-7vah.html
Thanks for the link, William.
I can recognise all of those cons but I think pro number one is so important that it nullifies the first two cons. Unless you can quantify the negatives associated with the “perception or risk of undue influence”.
Number three is good point, but could be abated by banning donations from organisations yet allowing them from private donors with a cap. I think that would negate that issue. The more members and sympathisers you have, the more money you get. However, the more caveats you add the harder it becomes to regulate, I’ll concede.
I don’t know much about the constitution in regards to political funding so I’ll leave that debate to the experts.
Further to 465: the paper doesn’t seem to mention any country that has banned private donations entirely. Canada and the US ban donations from corporations. The UK and NZ cap expenditure, which seems to be just as good.
I think that it speaks volumes that the Largest donnor to the Liberal Party (600k) was a widow from Kwinana who while not even a member wanted to help re-elect John Howard.
The ALP recieved a similar amount from a group of Hong Kong interests!!(used to be called gangsters when I was a boy)
The constitutional question in a nutshell is that any law which burdened freedom of communication about government or political matters would have to be “reasonably appropriate and adapted to serve a legitimate end in a manner which is compatible with the maintenance of the constitutionally prescribed system of representative and responsible government” – which is vague enough that it would come entirely down to the worldview of the particular individuals on the High Court. Notably, the whole “implied freedom of political communication” ball got rolling when the Hawke government tried to ban paid election campaign advertising.
Vera they arent rubbish comments, the Tory Government in Canada has said how long it will take them to get out of a deficit and Rudd and Swan should be able to tell us too!
They must’ve just picked a year out of thin air. It completely depends on when the world economy starts growing again. Malcolm Turnbull knows it is an unanswerable question, which is why he keeps asking it. It is an example of Opposition via Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
So they have a crystal ball. Amazing. I would bet big money they’re out by a good margin. By the way Glen what year do they say they will be out of deficit?
No 473
Yet, when we have a Prime Minister who proclaims that climate change is the “biggest moral challenge of our time”, it is an example of Government via Fear, uncertainty and doubt.
Two can play at that game ShowsOn.
Malcolm now agrees a deficit is necessary. Surprise, surprise, surprise.
The Kwinana megadonor to whom Trueblue refers at 470 is one Josephine Armstrong. The West Australian said this about her when her donations were disclosed under the annual WAEC returns last month:
It doesn’t really matter, Turnbull’s message was completely clouded by Julie Bishop saying the government should cut taxes to INCREASE taxation revenues.
Excactly how this can be achieved during a world-wide economic downturn wasn’t explained.
Glen, the Tories waited till the budget before doing any such thing, whatever merit it has anyway. Obviously any such prediction is pretty loose considering the nature of the circumstances.
Has there been any research done into the opinions of Australians when it comes to political donations? Accusations of outright bribery aside, it’s pretty naive to assume that these businesses and organisations with very real interests in who wins are donating simply to “Enhance the democratic process”.
Capping expenditure is a good idea, but how about capping donations a party can receive? That might look the same on the surface, but let me explain. Expenditure only relates to money spent during campaigning, correct? (If that isn’t correct you may as well ignore this part of my post.) Not all donations go towards campaigning. Money also goes to maintenance of offices, staffers etc. who are not a part of just the election campaign. So the political parties are still getting the benefit of donations and so the perception or risk of undue influence is still there.
My opinion is that political donations from corporations, unions and other organisations should be banned. Donations should be solely derived from individuals.
They are forcasting 2013-14…to return to a surplus…
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090129.BUDGETPAGE29/TPStory/National
At least they are honest…Rudd and Co wont tell us a thing!
I agree with this but doesn’t this leave open the opportunity to funnel funds from various organisations through individuals?
Eg. Jone Smith Inc., a property development company, cannot donate but Mr. John Smith can.
*John Smith. His name isn’t supposed to change half way through.
Hey Glen, I’ll repeat myself. Their forecast came out when they announced their budget. Has Swan handed down the budget? No.
And more importantly, their forecast, like any potential forecast by Swan, is conjecture. How do you expect them to get it right 5-6 in the future when they were predicting a surplus immediately prior to the budget?
Honest? You mean guessing.
No that’s right Glen we don’t know if we’re going into deficit or not and that it’s 115b.
In this session of parliament they won’t release all the figures and won’t let us know the stimulus package. You’re right Glen, they’re telling us nothing.
But Swan and Rudd have been making additional spending annoucements since the budget so they should tell us how we stand since them spending everything in the bank?
Oz their forecast rests on the validity of the Bank Of Canada suggesting Canada will be out of a recession by 2010.
Essential Research: 61-39, up from 60-40. Also featured are questions on becoming a republic within the next few years (52 per cent support, 24 per cent oppose – the latter sounds a bit low), whether Australia should agree to allow Japan to conduct whaling if it limits its activities to the northern hemisphere (10 per cent agree, 81 per cent disagree), “how would you rate your loyalty to your employer” and “how would you rate your employer’s loyalty to staff”.
The wind under the political sail of the Libs has been completely taken by the 3 Amigos. The press conference of the 3 Amigos (Rudd, Swan and Tanner) this afternoon, as a political theatre was quite impressive.
What was the Bank of Canada’s prediction before the recession began?
Everything I said still stands.
Not even a majority of Coalition voters oppose becoming a republic. Hope you’re reading, Malcolm.
Interesting article on Rudd Vs Turnbull. One man’s opinion of course but..
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/paul-sheehan/which-chameleon-do-you-prefer/2009/02/01/1233423042098.html
Deafening silence from the ALP cheersquad re 470. How about a comment on the fact that the combined left wing spend in 07/08(ALP, Green , real climate , move on ect) topping 100mil while the Lib/Nat spend around 50mil.Those big Corporations that fund and cntrol the Libs not doing such a flash job.
The problem for Malcolm re the Essential Research poll is not the raw figures, although they’re bad enough, but the lack of improvement for Turnbull and the coalition. We can argue about the raw figures but you can’t argue about the trend. There have been enough of these Essential polls to see the trend.
What do you expect? You made a racist comment that wasn’t worth responding to.
This is not surprising considering that Labor holds all but one state, territory, and national government. The party that holds government always tends to get more donations, because they are in a position to change policies.
And since when has the ALP been left wing? They are hard-line Centrists.
Since Kevin Rudd’s essay in The Monthly, apparently.
Essential Research has always a pro-ALP result and anyway i wouldnt expect much movement until we hit a recession this year and the shine will be well and truly off Rudd and Co…
Shows on 493
since when has Hong Kong been a race?
Irrelevant when comparing like with like and looking for a trend.
So there are many people out there who are not aware of the GFC and will blame Rudd for everything?
What makes you think the shine will go off Rudd and straight onto Turnbull?
Well who would want the Greens running the economy Gary?????
Plus we should actually have some policies out this year too.
But when Swan has to say we’re in Recession and Rudd and Co have spent everything but the kitchen sink to avoid it…not many will be happy with his way of tackling the GFC…
I’ve said it before and I will say it again Glen, while Rudd is seen as doing everything he can to protect jobs people will give him credit for it. His problem is not doing too much but being seen to be doing too little. I don’t think Rudd will let that happen.
Shows On 493
“This is not surprising considering that Labor holds all but one state, territory, and national government. The party that holds government always tends to get more donations, because they are in a position to change policies.”
How do you account for this comment since it was a Federal election with an incumbent Coalition Govt.
By the way if you look at related party spend the ALP moves to 120mil vs 55mil . Don’t you hate when big money perverts the domocratic process??
Ah, that crystal ball again. That is a hope Glen not a fact.
Glen
The recession per se will not harm the Rudd Govt. most sane people know it has nothing to do with him.
What may harm the Govt. is their reaction to the recession, if Turnbull can win the argument that the Govt has done the wrong things, wasted money, caused unemployment, then it may bite.
All the indicators so far say Rudd is doing a good job and Turnbull is not.
What has he done to protect jobs???
Fair Work Australia?? HAH that has cost jobs…Rudd has done nothing but try to spend his way out of a likely recession…what a genius of a plan!
Rudd has to spill the beans and tell us how much we’re in deficit and when the budget will return to surplus based on forecasts and how much debt he expects we will incurr the last thing i want is Rudd and Swan putting us 96b dollars in debt and having no way out leaving us with a structural deficit!
So trueblue, you’re against party donations then.
By the way you obviously have proof that the Hong Kong connection is corrupt. Can you provide it here?
Whether the coming recession “takes the shine” off the Rudd government or not depends on two things: whom the voters decide to blame for the recession, and whether they think the Rudd government’s policy response to it is correct. On the first point, the voters clearly do not blame Rudd – everyone can see that this crisis started in the US, and results from policy failures by the Bush administration and the Republican Congress. On the second point, on the evidence of opinion polls, so far the voters seem to think Rudd’s efforts to head off and/or mitigate the recession are the right ones. They are after all the same policies which are being followed by every other government in the world, and the policies recommended by most economists. The voters may of course change their minds over the next 20 months, but if the Liberal Party thinks it can coast back to office by saying nothing and waiting the voters to start blaming Rudd for the recession, it is likely to be disappointed.
Oh, so he shouldn’t spend and help save jobs? He should just hoard the cash and boast a surplus. Strangely Glen you’d be one of the few people now saying that. Even your leader has changed his tune on that.
Done. No good in guess when the GFC will be over Glen.
Glen
Surely it is the role of Govt to spend during a recession?
Well said Adam (506). I agree.
A federal election that nearly everyone thought Labor would win from about March 2007 onwards. So it isn’t surprising that Labor got more of the donations.
Plus, the disclosure period was July 1st 2007 to June 30th 2008. Labor was in Federal government slightly longer over that period.
No, this just demonstrates how philosophically, intellectually, and financially bankrupt the Liberal party actually is. Remember, it was the Liberals that raised the disclosure threshold to $10,000, whereas the current government wants it to be $1000, and wants disclosure every 6 months.
http://www.smos.gov.au/transcripts/2008/tr_20080328_electoral_reform.html
It will be the Liberals that will oppose such legislation, because they hate any reform to make the electoral system more transparent.
The Liberal Party can only score points if they show what Rudd has done hasnt helped the situation and explain clearly what they’d have done better and would do if they won…but Gary he’s spent everything we’re in deficit and most likely in recession at some point you’ve got to stop…the whole point about going into deficit is to get out of it and Swan wont tell us how or when the ALP will get us out…on your last point that is a poor response the Tory Govt in Canada has done what Rudd and Co wont…they’re cowards because they fear revealing the extent to which we’re in the poo so to speak.
Adam if it is any consolation i think the ALP will win in 2010 but it is whether our side goes backwards or forwards…
Glen the Lib scare tactics about ALP and recessions and deficits may have worked in Keatings day but now most people have internet access so we can see what’s happening in the rest of the world for ourselves. It can’t be pretended that it’s an Australian financial Crisis and not Global. We are able to see that it is world wide and that OS countries are much worse off than us. We don’t need to rely on consevative leaning TV and newspapers anymore and their version of current affairs. People can’t be spooked so easy nowadays thank goodness.
Gary Bruce 505
“So trueblue, you’re against party donations then.
By the way you obviously have proof that the Hong Kong connection is corrupt. Can you provide it here? ”
As it happens the current political donation seriously disadvantages the Libs. Most public companies that donate a declarable amount donate the equivilant to the ALP. Then the Union movement , either via direct donation or related party activity top the ALP up , in the case of the 2007 election to over double . I hope Faulkiner introduces his reforms ASAP .
Goodness me the comrades are sensitive . My comment was hardly an accusation of corruption , more a lighthearted suggestion that people who own casinos have not traditionally been conidered pillars of virtue.
trueblue
No-one wanted to be seen to be giving money to a loser. The smart money went to curry favour with the overwhelming favourite.
Glen
Oooh goody! That would be a nice change, wouldn’t it! Imagine that, a political party with a policy!
Exactly and so far the only thing they have to say is Tax Cuts.
trueblue @ 470
“I think that it speaks volumes that the Largest donor to the Liberal Party (600k) was a widow from Kwinana who while not even a member wanted to help re-elect John Howard.”
Gee, I hope she signed up for a pre paid funeral – she won’t get anything back for that little investment.
Steve K she made 30 million dollars selling large blocks of property she owned in WA i dont think she would care about losing 600,000 bones…
Glen, we simply don’t have a huge economy, all we can do is protect enough jobs as possible in the short and medium term, and hope that China, Japan, and U.S. come out of recession as soon as possible.
There is no way we can avoid recession if the rest of the developed world is in recession too.
Turnbull knows this, he just can’t admit it for political reasons.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24992901-7583,00.html
Milne seems surprised and shocked about the fact that the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Education & Employment & Industrial Relations, the Treasure and the Minister for Finance are, in his words, “effectively running the country.”
He digs up a bit of the old “Julia is going to dethrone Rudd” conservative rubbish as well.
Oh, and to cap it all off:
“Right now the gang of four, fused into one by the heat of global conflagration, is Labor’s best hope of winning the next election.
Malcolm Turnbull would be advised to recognise that fact and try to do something about it.”
Is it just me or does that look like it’s written from the perspective of Turnbull being in commanding position and Labor way on the back foot.
ShowsOn just because a recession is not avoidable doesnt mean Rudd should never tell the Australian people how or when he’ll get the budget into surplus and how or when the debt will be paid off based on forecasts? They are afraid of bad publicity…
WorkChoices did away with Unfair Dismissal protection for millions of employees. Meaning they could be sacked without rhyme or reason. It also removed the onus from employers to pay redundancy compensation. It effectively removed every obstacle from employees making mass lay-offs.
Which is all well and good when unemployment is low and the economy is booming (thanks China). A disaster during a downturn, as we narrowly avoided learning.
Shows On 510
“No, this just demonstrates how philosophically, intellectually, and financially bankrupt the Liberal party actually is.”
I love the hypocracy of the left . So when the Libs raise more money than the ALP will that mean that we are “philosophically , intellectually and financially superior??
By the way, we know where trueblue is getting their talking points from:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24995518-601,00.html
“NSW Labor has drawn some of the biggest political donations in the country from Chinese gambling tycoon Stanley Ho and other Hong Kong-based individuals and companies.
The Australian Electoral Commission’s annual returns reveal Mr Ho, who held a casino monopoly in Macau for decades, contributed $200,000 to NSW Labor coffers in 2007-08.”
But what do we find way down the bottom?
“Other beneficiaries of Hong Kong Kingson Investment’s largesse included the ALP’s Queensland branch ($20,000), the Liberal Party ($230,000) and Nationals ($250,000).”
So the “gangsters” give twice as much to the conservatives as to Labor, but the headline is “Tycoon Stanley Ho among large NSW Labor donors”.
Idiotic news report for the day.
The ABC reports on house prices. “There were falls across all capital cities – except Adelaide, Canberra and Darwin”.
See that Labor derives a goodly amount of income from its landholdings and businesses. Who said Labor doesnt’ have business-sense?
That’s right, Liberals, the lawyers’ party.
It’s not about who raised the lesser amount of money, but the Liberal’s attitude towards disclosures – to make them less transparent.
No, it just means we have to wait 15 years to see.
Glen @ 517
So the 300K donation didn’t leave her skint? I’m so happy for her.
LOL.
OZ @ 523
“It’s not about who raised the lesser amount of money, but the Liberal’s attitude towards disclosures – to make them less transparent.”
You would be suprised how many of the Liberal party donors are individuals,often pensioners, who donate amounts of around $100.We have nothing to fear from disclosure laws.
The budget will return to surplus when tax revenue starts growing again, this will occur when the economy starts to grow. This will occur when the world economy (and in particular China and Japan) are growing strongly again.
Whatever you reckon.
Adam 506
I think that is a good summary. I think the Rudd government’s current course is correct (as best anyone can kow) and that should stand them in good stead. I think the greatest political risk in future from the recession is external i.e. with the United States. If Obama goes protectionist it would harm Australia’s interests and presumably strain relations with them. Yet I would have thought that Rudd would wish to stay/become close to the US, both ideologically and in terms of Australia’s foreign policy stance. It would also be desirable to work together on CC policies. But if the US strikes an opposing stance Rudd could find himself in an awkward position, especially since he likes to take such a high personal profile on the foreign policy issues.
Oh Dear, Barry O’Farrell has been exposed as a hypocrite re his call on a ban on Overseas Political Donations.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24997484-5005361,00.html
Nonsense. Why did the previous government increase disclosures to $10,000?
Hey trueblue, got no reply about the Liberal and National parties being funded by “gangsters”?
Yet when in government Howard raised the threshold above which donations must be publicly listed to an absurd $10,000 (I believe the figure was).
trueblue @529
Is Josephine Armstrong a pensioner? Ignoring all of the worthy causes in her state – such as homeless shelters, disability support services, drought relief and other community-based charities – this woman pumps $600,000 into Howard’s doomed re-election effort. And what was it all spent on? Corflute? Attack ads?
If Howard was re-elected, what are the chances Mrs Armstrong would have earnt herself a nice little OM or some such …
These are your people!
William
Thanks for the link to the AEC site; heaps of fun for all
Oz 523
Not only is it a stupid complaint, but they have missed another story. As the SMH pointed out after the last NSW election, 4 of the ten biggest donators to NSW Labor were property developers. Given the many scandals in Sydney planning approvals this is a real story, but it was missed by the Oz.
Would that be because the way the Liberal finances are going they will soon have nothing to disclose?
British American Tobacco
Liberal Party $120,000
National Party $5,000
Labor Party $0
Greens $0
You know that an organisation has no scruples when they take money from BAT and Philip Morris.
Am I really the only one surprised that large, prominent blue collar unions in sectors like construction and manufacturing are ditching Labor for The Greens? Or is this old news? I had heard of the ETU giving vocal support, but nothing about the CFMEU or the AMWU.
I think this already has pretty severe implications for left-wing politics in Australia, and even more so if the trend continues.
Oz better watch out , next election all the scary union thug adds will be directed at you greens
Vera, if history repeats itself that means The Greens will win government =P
Well the CFMEU in WA dumped Labor due to Brian Burke and the fact that Shelley Archer (Wife of CMFEU Boss Kevin Reynolds) refused to sever her links to Burke.
Oz Bob Brown PM! I’d like to see that
Innner Westie@537
“Is Josephine Armstrong a pensioner? Ignoring all of the worthy causes in her state – such as homeless shelters, disability support services, drought relief and other community-based charities – this woman pumps $600,000 into Howard’s doomed re-election effort. And what was it all spent on? Corflute? Attack ads?
If Howard was re-elected, what are the chances Mrs Armstrong would have earnt herself a nice little OM or some such …”
My understanding is Mrs Armstrong contacted the Liberal party and asked nothing in reurn , simply that she wanted to help John Howards re-election effort. As for Mrs Armstrongs donations to other charities I have no idea and nor do you. The West hunted around to find some dirt on the woman and came up with a humble widow living in modest circumstances whose biggest thrill was her up coming move into a 2 storey house.It might be wise not to judge everybody by ALP standards.
Oz
The Victorian branch of the CFMEU slipped the Greens a lazy $40 grand, the question is why?
Have the Greens been bought by the C-Foresty-MEU?
Interesting, thanks for the info.
This was the CFMEU Victorian division, however.
Anyone know how unions decide how much too donate and too whom? Is it purely at the discretion of the executive? Does this mean that there are Greens part of, or leading, the executives of the AMWU and the ETU?
I’m trying to figure that out as well.
If Mrs Armstrong had donated to the Labor party she would be branded as a “property developer”.
Glens comparisons to the torys of Canada is interesting.
Doesn’t the fact they HAD to come up with a time frame, how ever rubbery, because they are in minority and need the Grits to pass the budget to keep Harper politically alive? You have to take into account the current political machinations of Canada.
No one knows how long it will last. The honest answer would be “Buggered if I know”
Nathan Rees, Premier of NSW, just said on ABC news that he “Supports a publicly funded” model for donations but concedes the constitutional impediments.
Considering William’s view that the constitution is quite wishy-washy and it would be up to the High Court, is the only way to test it to make the law, enforce it and then wait for someone to appeal?
Which is odd as WA already has “Public funding” where the parties and candidates are reimbursed if they get X amount of the vote.
I think he’s referring to an exclusively public funded model with a ban on private donations.
William talked more about it here:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2009/01/30/morgan/comment-page-10/#comment-230534
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2009/01/30/morgan/comment-page-10/#comment-230540
trueblue @546
I wouldn’t describe donating 600K to a party of workplace vandals the work of a “humble” person, would you?
And note, that’s 600K that could have gone towards organisations that actually care about looking after families and communities. Half a million bucks that was instead flushed down the toilet with a truck load of how-to-vote cards and Crosby-Textor spin merchandise … Good on you Josephine! Your OM is in the mail!
I repeat, these are your people!
Mr Edmund Stuart Groves
2007/08
LP: $50,000
ALP: $0
Poor Eddy wasn’t quite fast enough, it seems, despite his flash cash!
Why would Mr E Groves donate $50,000 to the Qld Libs 9 days before the last election.
Hey Eddie were skint – throw us a few bucks???
I hunted on their website. It looks like the CFMEU (Vic) and the Greens have become very friendly about abolishing the ABCC, which probably accounts for the $40K. The CFMEU really hates the ABCC, it’s like a fight to the death (I, on the other hand, had to look up what the CFMEU actually stood for).
http://www.cfmeuvic.com.au/
Red Kerry had Turnbull on toast, again on 730.
The ship was sinking and the rats – who he owed favours – were desperate. He sold his cowboy boots and some other personal effects on ebay for $250. I don’t know where he got the remaining $49,750 …
The Greens have been on to this for years:-
http://www.democracy4sale.org/
Search for who runs our country here:-
http://www.democracy4sale.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=206&Itemid=22
And The Greens do it all on the smell of an oily rag.
Donations here:-
http://nsw.greens.org.au/get-involved/donate-to-the-campaign
hahaha
Anonymous
Any news on the Exclusive Brethren? Did they The Messiah from Bennelong a leg up in 2007?
I thought it had something to do with the ABCC. Cheers, Diogenes.
“FAILED childcare chain ABC Learning paid one of its directors, former childcare minister Larry Anthony, more than $235,000 to lobby governments on its behalf.
Mr Anthony, who still sits on the board of the collapsed childcare corporation, also pocketed up to $65,000 a year in director’s fees.
His private company, Larry Anthony & Associates Pty Ltd, earned $125,000 in 2007 and $110,000 in 2006, according to ABC Learning’s annual reports.
Mr Anthony, the architect of the Howard government’s free-market approach to childcare, said yesterday his consultancy work for ABC continued for “a couple of months” last year.
“It was terminated in 2008,” Mr Anthony told The Australian.
Asked why a company would need to pay a director consultancy fees for advice, he replied: “I was doing a lot of government relations work with them.” ”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24977685-5013871,00.html
If I was in Mr Groves position I would have donated to my benefactors as well.
Having been outed the Exclusive Brethren appear to have gone to ground.
With reportable donations starting at $10,ooo who realy knows what they are up to?
or did you mean this:-
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=8_zulGddP6o
well, Malcolm didnt do himself any favours on 7 30 report, he just seemed to stutter and waffle on, Kerry showed him up with a few pointed words, for all Malcolm wants to be kingpin he’s not a very good politician, now he wants Rudd to take him into his confidence, what an ego, he wants to be a co PM, whoops Kerry finished up by hinting Malcolm may not be very safe, he said there was unrest in the lib ranks, Malcolm says they’re a very solid team working together and Kerry made a little remark {with his trademark little smile} that he’d look forward to see proof of that later on.
This is ridiculous.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/02/2480428.htm
So the ALP collects $350,000 from Chinese businessman and it’s considered a worthy story. The LNP gets $500,000+ and that gets no mention?
I know this is stated many, many times on this blog, but the media is a joke.
Finns 559
Yes the 7.30 report was a hoot. Turnbull was really squirming. Kerry didn’t even have to go after him that hard – just point out the contradictions between his statements and his own shadow cabinet and ask him to explain. As Turnbull said in closing “It was a pleasure”.
It struck me that Turnbull really doesn’t understand the underlying reality. Last year he was all doom and gloom before the bad news came out from China. Now a recession is imminent he is trying to say we won’t go into one, as if people might blame Labor if he says that. Its completely unconvincing – sounds like he’s just playing a game, which he is. He needs a coach badly.
559, 566, 568 – glad wasn’t the only one thinking “a new year, but nothing changes”. Bad start for MT, doesn’t bode well – his pathetic laugh at Rudd writing a “novel” on his holiday.
Well, let’s hope the EB are now putting their hundreds of thousands towards more worthy causes, such as wrecking families and occult brainwashing!
Um … that video was a cracker! Cyrius01 is a Green Plant …
It’s going to be interesting what Newspoll reveals tomorrow, as I reckon Turnbull is looking more and more unable to control the political narrative, despite the MSM’s treatment of the Rudd gov’t.. Did anyone else notice the visuals on the ABC tonight in which Rudd was portrayed with slightly slowly psychomotor movements? O.K., it’s a given I’m trained to notice such things, but I asked himself indoors did he notice it, and he had. WTF? I notice Vera had made an earlier comment on the endless broadcasting of endless members of Her Maj’s Opposition on the Midday Report, so took a keen interest in this evenings reports. I think Bushfire Bill has got a handle on at least some of it, with his analysis, but there’s something more going on here. I’m not a paranoid person, or particularly prone to panic or conspiracy, so will look forward to more analysis from Ad Astra, who’s back on deck, and The Shrike (Piping).
Turnbull was incompetent on the 7.30 Report. Absolute rubbish.
And the 7:30 Report when talking about Rudd’s essay in The Monthly did a slow-mo of papaer from a document (not a magazine) being turned over like it was some shady leaked memo.
I have a prediction for the Newspoll after this one – A shift to the Libs.
I’m probably going to get savaged by you lot, but here’s why. The downward spiralling of the economy has accelerated. We know that it’s not our governments fault. Most Australians probably recognise that as well. But the repeated gloom and doom by economists and the media, as well as the references to “deficits” “recession”, which the public have been conditioned to jump out. Whether or not this is Rudd’s fault is irrelevant. The perception is all that counts. Thus far, the public opinion has stayed with Rudd. But there are going to be people who swing away purely because they’re scared of recession/deficit, have never experienced one but have heard all the stories about how evil Keating was and because they’ve been subjected to an intense fear-mongering campaign by virtually all sections of the mainstream media who have repeatedly linked Rudd to Keating and refused to even attempt to analyse the nonsense coming out of Turnbull and Bishop’s mouth. Also, as unemployment picks up there are going to be people who have lost their jobs and are going to take out their anger on the incumbent. Regardless of who caused the crisis.
We read Peter Martin and Ross Gittins everyday, 99% of Australians don’t. I don’t think it’ll be an enormous shift but there will be a net movement to the Libs.
573 – I’m not convinced.
Grog, that’s just some crap visual filler, and doesn’t concern me. What I found disturbing was the visual of Rudd, singled out, eyelids moving slowly, as the camera fixed on his face only, no other people or dynamic in frame to provide reference. As I said I’ve never seen this before. It’s a film technique for sure, but national reporting?
re 573
I think it will be just more of the same – bouncing around within the margin of error +/- 2%.
Oz, if what I’ve noticed as a new technique of manipulation of public perception is right, and I sincerely hope others show me how I’m just crazy/deluded, you can entirely revise your estimate of public perception and future elections altogether.
Keating’s on Lateline, that should be interesting.
PJK on Lateline
HSO – I have to make the comment altho I can’t stay logged in tonight.
I also wondered what I was seeing when it looked as tho Kev was falling asleep on camera – if you are right that this a manipulation then we should all be screaming about it before it becomes prevalent.
You know what the media mob are like – one does it, they all do it.
It would be grossly unfair to everyone, not just Kev, if this becomes the norm.
Lateline is back on!??! Boston Legal or Lateline…… hard choice.
That Turnbull interview on The 7.30 Report was excruciating. No-one should have to go through that. It was like a bad act on a talent contest.
Maybe Kerry should get a gong and a big fluffy mallet. Malcolm, your time is up…
excruciating for the viewer or for Turnbull. Listening to the sound bytes I’m beginning to think Turnbull is labors best asset.
Diogenes
replying to your post today
Evey World leader has condemned Obama & Democrat HOR discriminatory selfish protectionist Bill as econamicly wrong
Every econamist in World I’ve searchd also has condemned Obama & Democrat HOR discriminatory selfish protectionist Bill as econamicly wrong
Not surprising seeing th World Trade Oroganizaton WTO has been progressiveley impove fair trading for years wih ACTIVE support of most world Leaders includig all of Hawke , Keating Howard & Rudd , all in agreement and activ
Obama & th Dems protectonist Bill will destroy th wto program completely & decrease world trade , increase world povery & unemployment and kill growth
There is only ONE anti protectionist disenter in th World , USA’s Obama & Democrat HOR , and a few US economists whose americon ego is shamed by unified world attacks of protectionist selfhishness and econamic foolihness…reverse stimuli’s and transferable Debt nonsense but linked only to a ‘Debtor” (US broke Country) not to “Creditor” Countrys selectively in a downturn absolutely cr.ap econamics that Krugman will live to regret , seeing World economists think its nonsense apologistic USA ‘spin’
Coinsidently , There is only ONE anti KyotoCC ratification supporter disenter in th World , USA’s Obama….youse rusted on obama-ites keep th company of World pariahs on protectionism and Kyoto ratificiaton , just th USA & Obama
Instead of saying saying he’s unqualifiably wrong on both issues , obama rusted ons tink Obama must be perfect and th whole world wrong on both isues And you rust ons then critisise Turnbull claimin objeectivity
Had you been objective , I would hav said find a few ‘left’ OR ‘right’ Australian econamic writers who agree with Obama/Dems HOR protectionist Bill….like Davidson , McCrann , Kohler , Gittins , Mengelopos..neither ‘left’ or ‘right’ economists agree with Obama here in oz or 95% in non US whole Worlds
BUT chickens will come home to roost when EU (a biger GDP than US and not debt ridden like US) retaliates as it has threatened , let alone China who can kill US $ currency quite quickie , then US also will suffer badly from US’s foolish econamixcs
Yes , lets allow Australia and ALL poor & less developd countrys be econamicly devastated by this discrimatory Obama/Dems protectionism such aussie spirit indeed , instead of critisisng th Obama protectionism without lame conditions
Obama rustedons silense or some spamming here will not change this reality
About time Obama was praided when right and crisised when wrong like non suppotrting Kyoto ratifcation & discrimatory protectionism
I just felt uncomfortable watching it. It was not pleasant. That bit when he was caught out on the changing budget deficit was the moment his political career must have died, surely. O’Brien didn’t even make the point that clearly, but Turnbull did the job for him.
I think there was a Nelson interview almost as bad but I’m not sure.
Keating just said curent problam is ‘th Banks hav bandaged themselves up and gone home’……another one line
Oz
Posted Monday, February 2, 2009 at 9:59 pm | Permalink
“I’m probably going to get savaged by you lot”
Really doesn’t matter one way or the other, my prediction somewhere in the range 58 to 60 two party preferred, just like any other week. And time will tell.
trueblue
Posted Monday, February 2, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Read all about it ::–” Humble widow living in modest circumstances donates $600,000 to liberal election campain”
Ya, for sure.
Further to the earlier comments about current and recent media coverage, this is a good example of what bugs me so much about the one-sided style of coverage that now seems to be the norm.
The common denominator is that they all seem to finish with an unanswered, negative, anti-Labor comment such as this on the ABC web site.
[But Mr Turnbull says it is vital that the plan the Government adopts is workable.
"The problem with the cash splash before Christmas is that all the evidence to date [suggests it] was an ineffective use of $9 billion,” he said.
“That’s a lot of money – we will have a deficit this year certainly and that $9 billion that’s been spent will be a big contributor to that deficit.
“The question is, with every element of Government policy, is this going to be effective to promote jobs to promote economic activity?”
Mr Turnbull says the Government must have a strategy to get out of deficit.]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/02/2480392.htm
scorpio
You got it all wrong, it’s Labor bias; Turnbull is Labors best asset.
In post 497 Trueblue states “since when has Hong Kong been a race?”
One of my nephew’s good mates at school (a boarding school) is from Hong Kong and spent a week over the Christmas Holidays at my Brothers place.
My Brother ask the boy what the people of Hong Kong Called themselves, the boy replied
mostly we call ourselves Chinese but some times we call ourselves Honkies
My Moneys on Newspoll showing an improvement in Labors Primary and Two Party Preferred Support
I was struck by how much Keating seemed to have aged on Lateline and how much more slowly he spoke. Nevertheless he still had some good lines, and his understanding of the problem was clear and sharp. I bet he’d still love to have a go at Turnbull.
Just a quick comment about Paul Keating. It under him and Hawke that we got a deregulated financial system, privatisation, negative gearing, superannuation and a pathetic communications network. The Howard Government came along and extended such stupid market policies and now we have a mess.
Superannuation going backwards, privatised companies doing as they as please, homeowners soon to experience great pain, and a financial system regulated due to some changes after the last recession but still throwing money left right and centre to people and putting them in massive debt of which many will never get out of. Fed up with listening to Keating, he rarely says he made mistakes and sorry but his governments policies have caused some of the probs which linger in our economy today. Howard and Costello only worsened such probs.
Government ownership and regulation are the only things which will get us out of the mess.
marky marky
I agree that Keating could never admit he was wrong, but I thought he was right on this one. He did create all those systems but he didn’t cause our current mess. My house valuation hardly changed from 1994 through to about 2001. There was really no bubble in Australian property markets till after 2000, when Howard and Costello made some crucial changes to capital gains and negative gearing deductions that led to a bonanza of investment home buying and corresponding borrowing. I expressed concerns about this to several people in 2004 but got ignored then. The changes to mobile super and self regulation were also due to Costello and Clerp 9 reforms. I’m not suggesting Howard and Costello caused the world credit binge, world assett price bubble (or our mining income boom either) or GFC but you can’t blame any of that on Keating.
Turnbull on 7.30 Report was pathetic. He was made mince meat of by Kerry. But what he highlighted however was the sorry state of politics in this country at present.
People who say one thing and then change their mind the next, people in cabinet who have differing views with leaders and parties which have no idea what they believe in.
Gillard goes to Davos meeting and spruiks economic lassez faire policies whilst Rudd says the opposite in Oz only to have said something different five months earlier.
Why do these people go into politics and what ideological believes do they have?
marky marky, it’s a different World today then it was 6 months ago and getting worse. I feel sorry for people aged between 30 and 55 and still working.
Things are changing everyday. Things were a lot worse 3 months ago than what we thought 6 months ago and now it’s worse than it was 3 months ago.
MARKY MARKY
“Gillard goes to Davos meeting and spruiks economic lassez faire policies”
like what ??? , fairer trade rules so our farmers and exporters get a fair deel Its US & past protectionism she’s fiting fo , plus prevent current Obama protectonist fiasco
AND she pushed better world finacial regulation within a reel globlisation world that we can not change , she’s pushed to stop repeat of wall st barons
julia is doing fine
Keatings’ policies have helped to put money into peoples’ hands to go out on a free for all.
Negative gearing that policy is now such a drain on the governments’ purse strings and in the next year we will see how people who are negative geared go, will high rents continue? How many homeless will result? When people start losing their jobs and are unable to pay their rents?
Yes the Howard Government introduced capital gains taxes concessions on housing which made it worse but negative gearing is the main problem restricting first home owners…
Superannuation has put money into financial guru’s hands to invest in shoddy investments and sharemarket and now look it is going backwards and fast. Many people have lost their life savings, some have little to show and many are now taking the pension.
More money into the system and more debt.
Privatisation and yep how many of the privatised companies now employ more people than they did in the 1990’s? More unemployment to come from these companies seek greater profits and shareholder dividends.
A deregulated financial system now allows banks to charge us fees on services, reduce rates when the feel like it, reduce staff, and throw money like confetti to people, yep how many phone calls do you get to borrow against your equity? I get it all the time..
And how many credit cards are now available. Sorry his and next government have fueled this mess. In 1983 their was hardly any foreign debt in Australia, from the moment we deregulated the financial system it balloned and now is approaching 700 billion.
“from the moment we deregulated the financial system it balloned and now is
approaching 700 billion.”
no connextion at all between those 2
credit cards came in in 1975
So free trade will create lots of jobs or cheap imports from Asia Ron?
credit is fine as a tool just don’t over eat it , that 700 billion of yours created consumer purchases , which created business growth & jobs which generated taxes to build schools & hospitals !.
….servicing capacity to income shares basicaly ok , although perhaps some regulaton on credit card limits criteria wuldn’t go astray system works , fine tuning always needs some oil thats all …just none came in last 12 years which created propery boom with neg gearing/capital tax changes
It may look like i made a connection but my sentence was about financial deregulation and its merits.
I will say this again, why was their throughout the postwar period to the mid to late 70’s a significant period of economic growth, low unemployment and moderate to low inflation throughout the free world and many people in fulltime employment and not this casual rubbish. Keynes economics and governments willing to invest and own companies. We need to go back to such policies and this stupid fetish with bonus schemes, free trade, surplus budgets, and so on. Government debt is the cheapest form of debt when will we wake up?
Talk about bad timing by Barnett when announcing Govt Spending, the lights go out
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/02/02/2480512.htm
Marky Marky , we can not compete with Asia on ‘price’ of Labor wages , Japan was king , then it had to upscale its jobs & exports , then South Korea was king , now its changin , now China is king , it will hav to upscale in time also …so our econamy has changed upscaled
Marky Marky , if you stay still th bus will just run u over So yes fair trade allows us to export $$$ fairly farmers , steel etc and that creates a Countrys net wealth , and yes diferent job creatd from yesteryear in skill areas ..don’t forget with bigerworkforse after 20 years of cheap imports outr unemployment is 4.5% , so rest is better skilled than before
Yep and who will pay it back? Private debt is bad because you pay at a higher rate of interest, than government debt which is generally cheaper.
Yep and all the debt has made us a better nation… Our infrastructure is aging and our commuications system a mess.
Come on Marky, if anyone can find a negative in this you can.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/pm-plans-to-insulate-jobs-as-revenue-falls-20090202-7vr6.html
Time to go to bed, now you can all go to town and rubbish my irrational views.
Make a comment on this when i see the proof in pudding Gary. Goodnight.
Marky Marky
“Yep and who will pay it back? Private debt is bad because you pay at a higher rate of interest, than government debt which is generally cheaper.”
you ar confusing th 2 debts , you were talking 70 billion of consumer type credit debt and I said there were plus’s in that…so whats wrong with that debt ?…. it creates creates demand then growth then jobs then tax revenues then money to
bulild schools hospitals and for our defense
Now you’re switiching talkin about govt debt , diferent issue , Keating left a 96 billion debt , it was cheap money for National building …whats wrong with that ?
Well what was wrong is Libs don’t like cheap Govt debt so paid it out instead of infrastucture building , shipping , schools etc etc
Now with Rudds in pilot , Keynes is back in town…debt will be used for our worn out infrastuctures But thats diferent to plastic consumer money , altough credit limit crierias could do tightening , so don’t agree credit is bad at all
then that supa bit against Keating , great reform , and whose money wnt into it , for alot of employees its Keatings 9& of EMPLOYERS moneis & underdtansd Supa markets go in cycles , its doen but will come up , eventuals
And now if ant to talk th 3rd form of debt finacincing these PPP’s , well they;’re rotten like Toll deels as payback over th 25 years cost diferential wuldn’t equate to aleged eficiencys etc gained and some State Govts scared to tditch them & use there AAAA rating debt instead Now I don’t like this type of crude financial engineering
SNIP: Self-indulgent whinge deleted – The Management.
• • 469
William Bowe
Posted Monday, February 2, 2009 at 3:46 pm | Permalink
“…..Canada and the US ban donations from corporations…..”
US ? , perhaps technically…. How do feel Obama raised 600 million “privately’ ?
Frank @ 604
At least Princess Margaret Hospital is at the top of the list for the project to go ahead. Troy Buswell said so even before September 6.
New thread.