Newspoll seems to have taken the week off, but there’s always Essential Research, which has Labor’s lead up to 61-39 from 60-40 last week. Also featured are questions on becoming a republic within the next few years (52 per cent support, 24 per cent oppose – the latter sounds a bit low), whether Australia should agree to allow Japan to conduct whaling if it limits its activities to the northern hemisphere (10 per cent agree, 81 per cent disagree), “how would you rate your loyalty to your employer” and “how would you rate your employer’s loyalty to staff”. Furthermore:
• The silly season endeth – Kerry O’Brien and Lateline are back, and parliaments federal, Victorian and South Australian resume today.
• The Australian Workers Union has released a comprehensive survey of workers’ attitudes to the global financial crisis, derived from 1016 interviews conducted by Auspoll. The headline finding is that 40 per cent fear losing their jobs in the next year.
• Parties’ disclosures of receipts, expenditure and debts are available for perusal at the Australian Electoral Commission, at least so far as donations of over $10,500 are concerned. Siobhain Ryan and Imre Salusinszky of The Australian and Bernard Keane of Crikey sift through the evidence; the latter also opens fire on the Coalition over its obstruction of legislation reversing the 2005 disclosure threshold hike. Keane notes that one travesty can’t be pinned on the previous government: that we have had to wait until February 2009 to find out what went on at an election held in November 2007. Anyone who imagines this has something to do with logistics should consider the practice in New York City, where donations have to be declared before election day and “made public immediately on a searchable, online database”.
• Antony Green returns from a fortnight in the wilderness (literally) with a belated post-mortem on the Liberals’ defeat in South Australia’s Frome by-election. As I suspected, independent Geoff Brock owes his win to a peculiarity of the state’s electoral system that saves ballot papers with incomplete preferences by assigning them the preferences officially lodged by their favoured candidate. Without this provision, 258 ballots that were thus admitted the day after polling day would have been informal, leaving Brock 38 votes behind Labor at the second last count rather than 30 votes ahead. Another issue has been brought to my attention by Kevin Bonham, who points to the fact that a certain number of Liberal voters harmed their candidate’s chances by voting Liberal rather than Labor. If 31 such voters had tactically switched to Labor, Brock would have been excluded and the distribution of his preferences would have given victory to Liberal candidate Terry Boylan. Public choice theorists call this flaw in preferential voting “non-monotonicity”, which is elaborated upon here (although Bonham reckons “some of their worked examples are wrong”).
• Antony also gets in early with a preview of Western Australia’s May 18 daylight saving referendum, which combines customary psephological insight with a keen eye for the state’s lifestyle peculiarities.
• Former Labor MLA Kathryn Hay will run as an independent for the Tasmanian upper house division of Windermere (extending from the outskirts of Launceston north to the proposed site of Gunns’ Bell Bay pulp mill), challenging independent incumbent Ivan Dean at the poll likely to be held on May 2. Peter Tucker at Tasmanian Politics reports that one of the the other two seats up for election, the Devonport-based division of Mersey, looms as a clash between Latrobe mayor Mike Gaffney and Devonport mayor Lyn Laycock. Mersey is being vacated by retiring independent Norma Jamieson.
• Staying in Tasmania, a recount has confirmed that the last remaining Labor candidate in Franklin from the 2006 election, Daniel Hulme, will assume the lower house seat vacated by former Tourism Minister Paula Wriedt.
• Mining magnate and former National Party director Clive Palmer is making himself visible as the Queensland state election approaches, having been profiled last week on The 7.30 Report and in a cover story for The Weekend Australian Magazine. The latest salvo in Palmer’s charm offensive is a demand of $1 million in damages for defamation from Anna Bligh, who said there was “something just not right about one billionaire owning their own political party” (the annual financial disclosures discussed previously list $600,000 in donations from Palmer to the Liberal and National parties). Sean Parnell’s Weekend Australian piece describes Palmer as a “notorious litigant”, who “once listed it as a hobby in his Who’s Who entry”. Palmer’s 18-year-old son Michael has been preselected as the Liberal National Party candidate for the safe Labor seat of Nudgee.
• Rick Wallace of The Australian reports that Nationals-turned-Liberal Senator Julian McGauran will face a number of challengers in his bid for one of the two safe seats on the Victorian Senate ticket, with other incumbent Michael Ronaldson “widely expected to claim top spot”. The field includes prominent Peter Costello supporter Ross Fox, barrister Caroline Kenny and solicitor Cate Dealehr. Other names mentioned by Andrew Landeryou’s VexNews are Terry Barnes, a “former Tony Abbott adviser”, and Owen Lysaght, who ran as an independent in Chisholm in 2004.
1,780 Comments
61/39 to Labor. Turnbull you won’t even make it to Easter, Costello is coming!
He was also profiled on Today Tonight as well. (sorry no transcript) which was fairly lightweight, as opposed to a certain other political story
http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/article/5289610/general/adventures-kevin747
The AWU Report is very interesting. Naturally it is a bit of a put up job, but still. The workers surveyed must be living in some sort of the parallel universe. 48% apparently believe the Australian economy will either improve (22%) or stay the same (28%) next year. This must make them the most optimistic population segment in the world. They are also apparently looking to the Feds to look after things (interpreted as maintaining job security). If so, Rudd will be disappointing a lot of workers.
Interesting too, to see (along with the Essential findings), that workers appear to be rediscovering their ‘loyalty’ to employers. After years of employers struggling to hold onto workers and dealing with high and very expensive workforce turnover, the loyalty shoe is shifting feet. Gens y and z in particular will have new learning to incorporate into their world views.
Frank @ 2
Golly, that really is a lot of travelling. Unhealthy. It would be interesting to have an inkling as to whether it is making an iota of difference other than wearing Rudd out.
So, Ronaldson will get number one ticket in the Senate? Another excellent reason why only about one in three Australians can bring themselves to express a preference for the Liberals or the Nationals. His maiden speech in the Senate makes for interesting reading. If he were a fish, he’d be a coelecanth. (I apologize to any coelecanths that might be offended.)
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/senators/homepages/first_speech/sfs-xt4.htm
He is a ‘classical liberal, economically and politically.’ (Must be lonesome, these days).
He is, ‘grateful that the powers of this place are limited because, like the founding fathers of the 1890s, Australians of today are cynical about the use of powers of this or any place to do good.’ (Why is he there?)
Talking about the senate, he says, ‘This is an electoral system that would be completely alien to the house of review planned by the founding fathers, who instigated a system likely to give the government of the day a majority.’ (I am looking forward to him breaking ranks regularly and voting with the Government.)
He fulminates against ‘Labor’s attempt to stall industrial relations reform…’ (That would be WorkChoices).
He quotes Winston Churchill with approval. (Now, what did Churchill have to do with Gallipoli?)
He believes that the Iraq War was justified because Saddam needed to be ‘reprimanded militarily’. (Golly, so must have been the other million odd victims of the war).
The trouble with the other side (ie Labour, the Greens and so on) was that ‘they were morally adrift.’ (The Liberals and Nationals are paragons of morality?)
He asserts that ‘Fractions and percentages matter for kids.’ He is a proud supporter of the ‘times tables.’ (Surely for these profundities he deserves number one place on the ticket?)
With Ronaldson set to provide all the dead wood they could possibly need, McGauran should go.
The Queensland National’s faceless men come into the spotlight to explain what a face is. I heard an interview on ABC radio yeasterday where Bruce McIvor was skiting of 13,500 National Paty members left from what was supposed to be a combined herd of fifteen or sixteen thousand.
Obviously the Brisbane Liberals have not gone to the merger in numbers to make the new merger anything more than a National Party restructure. No wonder the Nationals wanted an early election in Queensland in the hope that it would be out of the way before Palmer grabbed total control of the campaign and all was lost.
[Mr Palmer says he has no more influence than other party members but he says union donations to the ALP raise the same question about Ms Bligh.
"Faceless men that run the ALP sitting in a little corner somewhere and decide who'll be the government of Queensland; the face of Anna Bligh is just that, it's a face," he said.
"[People think] ‘She’s a nice woman, she looks good, so let’s vote for her’ but it’s not her you’re voting for, it’s those people who put the $4.5 million in the Labor Party coffers.
“The poor woman probably hasn’t got any control of the Government at all; I’m sure none of her ideas have any influence.”]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/02/2480076.htm
I guess if QLDers vote the LNP into Government, they know they will have Palmer telling Borbidge what legislation to formulate and put into law. Which means that none of Borbidge ideas will have any influence.
Kevin Rudd will announce his second stimulus package today.
Regarding Justice Kerby’s retirement, I think calling him the great dissenter is an unfair title. It would be better to say that he was the conscience of the High Court at a time when it badly needed one. If that meant dissenting from the prevailing moral antipathy, then at least he had the courage to do so. Some of his critics lacked similar courage.
If nes reports are correct the Obama administration may be headed for its first major policy failure if they go ahead with a bank bailout (as opposed to buy out) in the US:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/opinion/02krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
What I don’t understand about the US is why aren’t there thousands of people out marching on the streets about this. Every citizen is about to get suckered with a huge debt from other’s greed and incompetence. In France or Greece they’d be burning buses.
Socrates, did you just ask why the US is not France or Greece?
Soc, the first failure? So far Obama has failed on:
1. provide leadership on free trade. if all countries put up protection barriers, we are back to the future of the 30s. Just remember the Fuhrer.
2. provide new politics of bi-partisanship. Not a single Repug supported his stimulus package at the Congress
3. Stop being and looking like a Hollywood/bollywoood celebrity jivin rappin president. Start being a real President that can tackle the GFC and ME
4. stop blaming other countries, like blaming China for manipulating the currency
Paul Williams has great reality check for the Queensland Nationals here:
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24996638-27197,00.html
Socrates, at the present time Obama is the messiah who cant put a foot wrong, we’re still a bit that way about Rudd, we tend to forget they’re only human, Obama will be given leeway as he works his way into policy, like most he’ll come up with winners and a few duds, like Rudd he’ll have cheer squads all pulling in different directions, {go into the letters to the editor in the Australian} the sound of different ideas is deafening, the trouble is no one knows whats going to work, we’ve never been here before so it’s all going to be hit and miss, what one economist lauds another lambasts it as a failure, all we can do is sit back, enjoy the ride and hang on for the bumpy bits, at the very least it’ll make life interesting.
steve,
As a mere Southerner (and Liberal voter) I struggled to see the point of the LNP, right from its inception.
I’m still struggling.
It’s Marketing 101 – amalgamating brands (in this case Liberal and National) is dangerous – there’ll be people who identify with one or the other, but not with the combined brand. By combining, you run the risk of losing those people.
Then you have the small problem that the two parties in Qld have generally despised one another (as a Liberal, my biased view is that this is the Nationals’ fault, but that’s beside the point).
So I’m not sure why those Qlders thought this was going to work.
LOL, Turnbull may very well not make it to mid-year, but Costello? No medical advances known to man can perform a moral fibre transplant. Abbott it is. People Skills!
Finns
1. There are arguments for temporary protectionism in a GFC so all countries pull their weight. See Krugman, Ron really seemed to enjoy the article.
2. Why is it that it’s only the left who must be bi-partisan? We never heard that Bush had to be bipartisan. When the Repugs kept asking for more and more pork in the bill, Obama eventually had to remind them “We won”. Obama’s mistake was to keep the Repug pork in the bill, which they still didn’t vote for.
3. He can’t help it if everyone loves him.
4. All countries blame other countries. We’re all blaming the US aren’t we.
Diog, it’s time you take your shirt and pay a homage to the Knowledge Trees of Macchu Picchu. And dont forget to take the delightful Mrs. D with you, she will show you which ones.
A man barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world’s first bionic politician. Peter Costello will be that politician. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, …
err maybe not.
Finns 12
I agree with you on free trade, though so far thats only rhetoric so I won’t count it till there’s a decision. But if so, yep that would be 2 policy strikes for Obama.
I don’t agree on the bipartisanship. Obama held several meetings with the Repugs and they still didn’t cooperate; the fault lies on the other side or with congressional leaders there. Your third point is purely pejorative and nothing to do with policy: do you suggest he have a policy to change skin colour? Point 4 again is spin not policy.
Grog, if they’re going to do a bit of rebuilding Costello could they please throw in a bit of cosmetic surgery and eliminate the smirk?
Considering that the problem in the Libs is still the schism between the nutbar-exteme right and the still-far-but-not-insane right, will Costello solve that? Don’t Costello and Turnbull both face a problem that they are too far “left” for most of their caucus?
Although i dont think Turnbull is doing a bad job i suspect if Costello became our leader we’d drastically reduce the 20 point gap in the polls…
Cossie should really have taken it in 2007 because 2010 could have been his year, especially when people want someone credible handling the economy…but i guess Malcolm and Julie will do…
Glen
The LNP really lucked out when Cossie spat the dummy and refused to take over. It led to endless leadership speculation, which is still going on, a period of crap leadership by Nelson who never seemed to know what he wanted, only to be followed by the hapless Turnbull (who I thought would do better) and the embarassingly incompetent Bishop (let’s keep the budget in surplus by cutting taxes). Seriously, I’ve got a better grasp of economics than her and I just read a ten minute article a day. What the hell is she doing?
Cossie may not have been popular but Australians (wrongly IMHO) think he’s the best economic manager in the Parliament. What is he doing on the backbench when he could be making himself useful? It beggars belief.
Judith
Botulinum toxin would fix the smirk.
Costello should be a part of the team or leave Parliament the last thing we need is a plum seat being held by someone who doesnt want to be involved…
Judith 14
I agree with you and overall I still like Obama as a leader. However when I say the bank bailout is a major error I’m not kidding. They will be paying off the debt for a long time, so this has lots of downstream political pain for him too. Its a mistake.
Why hasn’t Costello been snapped up by the private sector? (He said that’s where he wants to go). I’d have thought that in these troubled times some organisation somewhere could use a gun with his alleged economic prowess.
Glen I agree with your comments on both 24 and 26. Costello being distanced from Workchoices would help if he got serious about the leadership, but if not then he is just being a distraction.
Just finished watching the Lateline interview of P.J. Keating on the ABC website. The man has an incredible understanding of the international financial system.
People who make comparisions between him and Costello and contend that the latter was some sort of economic guru and comparable or superior, are living in a fantasy world.
Basically all Costello did for 11 years was repeat Treasury “talking points” and dish out constant doses of middle class welfare from the minerals boom to keep his boss, Howard, in Government.
Costello was exposed for the economic pretender he has always been, around mid 2007 and no amount of re-writing of historical fact can support the Libs contention of Costello as a “brilliant economic manager”. Pfffffttttt
The reason Costello is laying low is that he has been found out for the fraud that he and the Liberal Party spin merchants covered up for so long. Why would private enterprise want to offer a position to someone so lacking in substance and backbone?
Guess which political journalist wrote these words and he is spot on. I never thought I’d being saying that about this bloke.
GB
You are right and that is what I have felt for a while. The GFC is so obviously nto Rudd’s fault that as long as he is honest about it and seen to act to fix it people will judge him well.
Whereas those who oppose the action will suffer. Maybe Turnbull will become known as the great dissenter?
Mr “wise in hindsight” Costello having a little snipe from the sidelines.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25001386-5005961,00.html
He just sits back quietly in the background on his hammock and every now and again rattles his tin cup against the bars.
Sorry, Peter. No-one is listening anymore. Time to go back to sleep.
See Peter IS a great economic manager. He knew what was coming. He figured it out this morning.
On Sky News they say Rudd will hold a press conference at 12.30. It might be on that new A-pac channell too.
I don’t know if the press are still idolizing Obama in USA but yesterday after the procession of Libs on ABC radio at midday the next story was about Obamas stimulus passing but without Republican support. They were ridiculing parts of it and had a Repub on saying stuff like millions were being wasted on something to do with bees and more millions to be spent on something with sex in it? sex eductaion I think? and also said more millions to be spent providing fleets of cars for govt workers. I was in the car and arrived where i was going so didn’t hear anymore.
Is it me or does the ABC seem even more desperate this season?
Even their Online site had a photo of Bishop most of yesterday saying how she’s putting pressure on the Govt!
They might be getting their ABC1 and ABC Kiddies channels mixed up
If Costello pipes up about the economy too much he could be asked some very awkward questions in reply. Now that the collapse of the Chinese economy and our mineral exports has happened and we clearly are headed for a recession, it illustrates how critical the Chinese boom was to Costello’s “success” as treasurer. Before this event, when the GFC first emerged last year, Australian growth declined but not to recession levels. But China going quiet has been critical for us. So how would Costello defending his lack of investment during our China-led boom, now that it is clear it really was exceptional circumstances?
For that matter, fans of Workchoices could be asked the same question. With Australia catching cold after China’s sneeze, one might ask whether there was any job creation caused by Workchoices? We all know now what caused the job growth.
The only policy the Libs have got is tax cuts, Fairfax news just said tax cuts are looking less likely to be part of 2nd stimulus package.
Has Rudd been playing with Turnbull again, could the mole have leaked false info thus all the Libs shouting for tax cuts so that Turnbull would then take credit for them? Suckers.
That’s questionable. He predicted the “financial tsunami” (his term) would originate in China!
I believe he also said (though have no link to verify) that the US subprime crisis would not affect Australia.
Hmmmm, Sleeping Prophet anyone?
Socrates, it’s too well known Costello and Minchin formed the extreme right wing H.R.Nicholls society to bring about work choices, in fact Minchin apologised to them that Howards reforms didnt go far enough, theres no way Cossie can shrug that one off and if you dont think labor would use it in an election run your dreaming
Dio, isnt botulinum toxin only temporary?
Soc, the Chinese economy has not collapsed. It is predicting to grow by 6% in 2009.
Glen, i wrote yesterday that put Cossie in now and he will be in the Lodge by Xmas and we will be in surplus by 2010. Just do it.
WTF only $42B over 4 years stimulus.
you’re a hard man to impress TF
$29b of that in infrastructure
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25001488-462,00.html
JB
That’s the beauty of it. In six months the smirk will be back again, unless he wants a top-up.
When’s Rudd going to invest some of that stimulus money in renewable energy and kill two birds with one stone? Or is he too beholden to mining interests?
Good news for Glen and co. Deficit forecast:
08/09 – $22B
09/10 – $35B
10/11 – $34B
11/12 – $28B
So by the time the Libs got back in 2013 – They claim, again, that they have to pay back $106B debt that the Labor has incurred. Bluddy hell, last time it was only $96B.
Growth forecast:
08/09 – 0.1%
09/10 – 0.7%
10/11 – 3%
11/12 – 3%
Sorry Glen, so recession it seems.
correction: 11/12 – $25B, so total deficit will be $106B
Diog, Ruddster is going to pay $1600 for my new solar hot water system that i will be ordering soon.
So in real terms it will be a stack less
Judith 39
Thanks actually I didn’t know that about Costello. I always associated Workchoices with Howard, Abbott and Bishop. I am not a Costello fan anyway, so if he has that Albatross around his neck as well then I agree he is toast.
Finns 40
Sorry I shoudl have said Chinese growth has collapsed. However because of the amount of structural change happening in China, I understand that they need an economic growth rate of around 5% per annum just to keep pace. So 6% growth is effectively stagnation for Chinese industry.
I also agree with you the “stimulus” looks small. $42B over 4 years is only 1% of GDP per annum. Several money market economists were calling for up to 2% of GDP.
David Speers is most impressed with this package and thinks it will cause Turnbull some difficulty.
Finns
Rainwater tanks would be a great thing to subsidise in SA, Vic etc. I agree the solar system rebate being changed back is a good idea. Garrett and Swan really stuffed up on that one when they made it means tested.
But I’m more referring to large-scale renewable energy projects, like wind farms or Ron’s MegaSolar Farm.
Speers says it is just that.
I thinkmost of the 42b is to be done in the first 2 years
You would not believe the whingeing on the MSM blogs about the package. The main gripe is “I did the right thing and put in insulation. Now all these people who were irresponsible are being rewarded for it. Now just watch the price of insulation go up.”
Someone did make the point that the insulation bonus targets only one industry when the stimulus should be broader based. Still, it’s not the only part of the package.
Laura Tingle on ABC calling it clever – “who’s going to criticise building a new science lab”?
Socrates
Spears and Gilbert on Sky just said that is does work out at 2% of GDP which is what the IMF was recommending.
Also said that Turnbull will have trouble opposing package and that it will be interesting to watch the politics as Turnbull has been running around saying cash handouts don’t work so he can’t now say it’s OK . Which means he will have to oppose package and the people getting handouts (farmers included) wouldn’t be to happy.
Gary Bruce, you beat me
Unemployment:
09/10 – 5.5%
10/11 – 7%
By 2;30pm this afternoon, Interest rate will be at the record low under a Labor Govt.
I love this Rudd guy,
The trick is to find the right balance – you need to be a Pensioner, worker, sole parent with 2 kids and study
It really is adding up to a lot for me now after the last payout as well since I’m all those things
Cheers Ruddster
what do you think – a 1% cut or 1.25%?
Groggy, will not be surprised if it were to be 1.5%, min 1%.
GB and Vera
Yes I withdraw my comment. The bulk of spending is in the first two years which works out at 2% of GDP as you say. That fits exactly the formula Krugman and the IMF have advocated.
So looks like they got the size pretty right and it looks well targetted too. I also think it is broader than some have given credit for. The bulk of money is going for:
- education and school maintenance – that means builders, painteers, tradesmen etc
- libraries and science centres in schools – builders again plus lab equipment, books
- solar hot water is a good whole of life investment anyway; most locally made
- small business investment tax break means IT, business services etc
- training $ helps TAFE sector (activity) and reskills those who actually lose their job
- basic road maintenance and black spot $ – will provide work for Councils all over regional Australia; Turnbull wouldn’t dare oppose this.
Excellent; nothing grandios and all basic stuff that is obviously needed.
OK two ticks for me – right total $ and well targetted.
Methinks David Speers hair also had a bit of stimulus lately.
As per yesterday, it’s the 3 Amigos again. Go boys.
Finns you better give him a new hairdo like you gave me!
Finns, I have to agree with you… we live in strange times…
Rudd presser on now – running with the schools spending upfront.
The school spending is the most clever, politically, socially and economically.
Is Julia still in Europe?
Vera, will this do for Speers?
http://www.digital-cameras-help.com/birds/bird-5.jpg
Finns
that’s a real quacker of a hairdo
A masterful presentation by the Ruddster. I hope you’re all watching.
Rudd has proven to be a very clever politician, he’s fufilled everything needed without over egging the cake and spiked Turnbull and co beautifully, he also looked statesman like, honest and he knew what he was talking about with his delivery, bring on Turnbull and Cossie combined.
72 – absolutely….keeping it all within his education revolution and nation building. Beautiful work.
Has just compared the schools infrastructure spend to nation building work of the 40s.
Love how Rudd talks “We been chugging away ay this through the summer”
Adam but all that cash doesnt mean we’ll avoid a recession…
They dont even have forecasts for when they expect to see 3% growth…
Grog they’ve done nothing with their education revolution that has been the biggest farce in political history…
Annabel Crabb is suitably articulate on Rudd’s protracted spendathon:
Crabb: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/bannabel-crabbb/2009/02/03/1233423194378.html
Glen – Rudd dealt with all that stuff. Read the transcript.
GP – Welcome back. This is not the year for cheap partisan oneliners. You’ll need to do better now.
No 76
Glen I agree. Government deficit spending will not do anything other than lurch us further into economic oblivion.
I think Michael Stutchbury’s analysis of Rudd’s war on capitalism is excellent:
And wait for it:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24999160-5017771,00.html
That would be Workchoices Glen
Probably because when Howard did it it was right before an election, and targeted at marginal and conservative seats
lol what tosh
No 79
Adam, the partisan one-liners continue to come thick and fast from the leftards, so I will not be easily dissuaded.
Come off it, we are talking about a different economical time.
No 83
Dario, if the economic situation of Australia is that bad, no amount of government spending is going to stop an impending recession. It’s delaying the inevitable, so to speak, just like spending $95,000 per worker to bail out the increasingly uncompetitive auto industry.
More on the cash splash. Last week the Japanese Govt announced that it will give A$250 cash to every person in japan. Japan’s population is 128m, that makes A$32B. Rudd’s cash splash is about A$12.7B that makes A$600 to very person in OZ (21m pop). So who is the pretty boy now?
I just want to see turnbull committ political suicide and oppose this package.
As for the deficit – no deficit debate, name one economist or country for that matter, that has argued that keeping a healthy surplus to avoid recession is the way to go. Don’t bother looking, you won’t find one.
GP, I have no more time for leftards than you do. But neither the leftards nor the rightards are in power. The Ruddster is in power. If you want to pick any holes in his strategy for dealing with the GFC, you’ll need to come up something more substantial than petty pointscoring. So far Turnbull has failed to do so. I’ll be interested to see if you can.
Interesting package. With regard to Annabel Crabb’s comment as reported by GP@77.
As i see it, Rudd is spending up big, in as planned a way as is possible given the somewhat fluid circumstances, as a response to the global financial crisis. His reasons are to try and support the economy and jobs.
My job as well as his.
Howard’s spending was purely to support himself and his nefarious mob of losers in the Liberal party keeping their jobs, while attacking and undermining the pay, conditions and job security of people like me.
Howard actually failed as he was definitively and unceremoniously turfed the last time the voters had a say in the matter, and worse, he left his party to whom he owed it all, in tatters.
From what i can see at the moment, Rudd, Swan, Gillard and Tanner have been doing as well as can be expected given the magnitude of whats happening.
Stupid, “Gotcha” comments like that from Annabel Crabb are just that and largely irrelevant. Particularly in the current context.
GP, its not necessarily about preventing recession, its about making it shallower and less protracted than if the government sits on its hands and does nothing
No 85
Gary, Howard was always criticised for giving out too much middle class welfare, yet here we have Rudd giving out hundreds of dollars to people earning $100,000 per year.
I love Professor Willem Buiter’s conclusion:
http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/02/yes-we-can-have-a-global-depression-if-we-really-contintue-to-work-at-it/
No 90
They’re irrelevant for you because you don’t like the cold hard facts.
Rudd’s spending is worse than a drunken sailor’s I’d have to conclude. From a $22 billion surplus (funded by a tax binge on luxury cars, fuel concentrate & alcopops), we are now in a $22 billion deficit. Breathtaking in size and incompetence.
Adam is right. Rudd has snookered them all. No, it will not stop a recession, but it lessen the blow.
Of course no one will say no to another check in the mail.
Insultaion ties in with the greenhouse stuff.
SChool infrastructure (Public school) is a definite must do. Especially to fit in all the new computers.
And tax breaks for small business.
Ao no winging about budget deficits.
Checkmate.
they had a big mess to clean up…
GP,
The fact the rest of the planet is in recssion, thus less money coming in to Australia of course has nothing to do with it….
yeesh.
No 91
Let me quote Rudd:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudd-reveals-tax-revenues-to-plunge/2009/02/02/1233423135909.html
The argument you’re using Dario is the one the government will use if the economy does turn into recession, as Dennis Shanahan concludes:
Not that Rudd’s argument would be particularly persuasive.
More AC:
lol
GP, stop being a tool. He’s not going to say “bring on a recession!”.
GP, the comments are irrelevant because of the CONTEXT of the spending programs is completely different.
While the political consequences will i think, be positive for the ALP in the short to medium term, i think that if Howard was still in power he would hold off on the spending too long so that he could do it closer to the 2010 election.
Rudd is nailing his colors to the mast on this one and will sink or sail in 2010 based on the ALP’s actions now. That’s good because if this spending is going to lessen the effect of the downturn (and that remains to be seen, although i think it will), action needs to be taken now, a ways out from the next election.
Diog, the Lady has taken the right first step to save the credibility of the Obama Admin. She should visit Australia as well, as Rudd made a goose of himself on Rove over her.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/clinton.asia/
No 100
imacca, what’s amusing is how relevant the bizarre slogan “Going for Growth” is to the current times. When Rudd was criticising Howard for spending like a drunken sailor which supposedly caused out-of-control inflation, Howard and Costello were all the while pursuing what can now be called a visionary “going for growth” policy stance.
GP, if you read Shanahan’s comment at 31 of this thread I think you will appreciate what is really bugging you about this. Turnbull is stuffed.
No 101
I don’t want to see Rudd shake any more hands with foreign leaders.
No 103
Turnbull will be ejected soon, I believe. He has not made enough impact and it took him a long time to release a policy.
102 – This argument is a red herring. Howard’s gone – move on.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/coalition-blowout-prompts-cutbacks/2008/03/18/1205602385176.html
Howard’s spending was during the opposite end of the economic cycle to Rudd’s. Howard and Costello were criticised by the IMF (among other bodies):
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/12/peter-costellos-legacy/
easily the most misguided and foolish slogan in Australian political history.
No 107
How wrong the IMF turned out to be.
No 108
Misguided? Let me requote Rudd:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudd-reveals-tax-revenues-to-plunge/2009/02/02/1233423135909.html
1% cut to 3.25%
link:
http://www.rba.gov.au/MediaReleases/2009/mr_09_01.html
Good point by Cuppa @107, which i think illustrates the issue of context.
“Howard’s spending was during the opposite end of the economic cycle to Rudd’s. Howard and Costello were criticised by the IMF (among other bodies)”
The context of any discussions about economic management changed radically during 2008. Have to live in today’s world and not the past, although I still get a kick out the fact that St Maxine kicked Howard out of Bennelong!
Yes trivial and petty of me, but i don’t really care as that was such a good nights telly!!
Hmm, wasn’t there another slogan out there in the distant past along the lines of interest rates always being lower under a coalition government??
I guess that was a Menzies coalition government…
GP and Glen
I read Annabel Crabbes article as I usually do and it was hilarious. However when you read the whole thing the tone is obviously ironic.
Anyway, if Turnbull follows your lead and continues to criticise spending on a stimulus, you may yet be a greater help to Labor than you realise.
As for interest rates, I wonder if we will ever seem them this low under a Liberal govt?
GP, I repeat that stupid cliches like this (”spending like drunken sailors” ho hum) will just not cut it in the current situation. Government revenue has fallen by $150bn. What would you do? Cut spending by $150bn to keep the budget in surplus? That’s what Herbert Hoover did. That’s what the Premiers’ Plan did. That’s how we got the Great Depression. This doctrine has been as dead as a dodo since the 1930s. Is that where you want us to go? I presume not. The only alternative is deficit spending, everyone knows it, so get over it.
http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/081004-sowell-financial-crisis.php
spot on Socrates. AC was just having fun with how much things have changed.
Yep, no doubt Julie Bishop thinks there’s worth in that plan…
So far so good
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/03/2481129.htm
Interest rates cut by 100 basis points (1%) !
dovif is linking to ayn rand devotees. Oh dear.
Next scientologists.
perhaps the bloggers here {GP.and Glen excepted} should all flood Ms. Crabb with complaints, enough of them and she might just get the message.
OH MY GAWD!!!!!!! Cossie’s still alive, he’s up and waffling on –smirk intact
Do the Libs realise what a rabble they present by their continuous shouting and phony laughing over the top of Govt speakers in parliment. This schoolboy behavour in these GFC times shows them up as the jackasses they are and no one with half a brain would want them running the country.
Any sign of a question in question time today?
Not yet Rudd is still going through his stimulus package
Perth Now readers are also whinging about the stimulus. yet they praised Barnett when he cut some infrastructure plans in WA. I’d imagine a different response if they’re Hero Howie was making this announcement.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25002085-951,00.html
We haven’t started QT yet.
No answer from GP on what he would do in response to the GFC if he is opposed to deficit spending. Where would he make a $150bn in budget cuts?
Turnbulls a joke, he’s on about the deficit blaming it all on Rudd, but wait that’s right I remember now he said the GFC is all an ALP stunt.
Westpac is passing on full 1% rate cut
No 127
Easy. Cuts to FTA & FTB. Basically all welfare programs and other unnecessary spending should be cut back. Pensioners & Disabled excluded.
I would also cancel the auto bail out.
Further to that, I would reinstitute full-fee paying places at universities, deregulate fees and decentralise control.
I would cancel the childcare rebate.
So Turnbull wants NO deficit AND tax cuts at the SAME TIME as government revenue takes a massive hit.
He would therefore need to cut spending by massive massive amounts to “remain in surplus”. Would be interesting to hear where he would cut. Being a Liberal, it would no doubt be education and infrastructure for starters.
His cuts, from wherever, would also lead to job losses.
I hope he continues to pursue this line of “attack”.
The GST would be extended to all goods and services (i.e. the Democrats exclusions would be abolished).
This continued quoting of the IMF as some kind of independent and rational third party must stop.
The IMF is an organisation who is encouraging countries to go into deficit and take on debt for its own interests. It gives the credit, it sets the interest rates and it makes the loans conditional on market reforms. There’s nothing wrong in this economic climate of building from debt but the IMF has its own motivation for leading the “Spend spend spend and borrow (from us)” cheersquad.
Anyway, what a boring stimulus package. Cash handouts for virtually everyone and money in roads and schools. Creative.
Good way to stimulate spending there, take away between $100 & $600 per fortnight from families.
And take away the only way childcare becomes affordable.
AS well as enshrine privilege at universities.
“Easy”
ROFL. GP is channelling Sir Otto Niemeyer.
GP, I suggest you don’t tell the Berowra preselection committee that you are in favour of reducing most of the population of Australia to poverty in order to keep the budget in surplus.
No 136
Something truly creative would be to fund a nationwide rollout of solar panels for every household. Double propaganda value = good for climate change, good for “stimulating” the economy.
No 137
Privilege is already enshrined because foreign students can pay whatever they like to get into our universities yet local students are denied the same opportunity.
You’ve merely taken Rudd’s idea (roof insulation) and substituted the words “solar panels”.
No 139
Adam, the government should not spend what it does not have. I do not wish Australia to be in perpetual deficit like many European countries, and indeed, the United States.
No 141
Cuppa, my idea has been stated on here before Rudd introduced his dubious insulation plan.
Sweet!
GP,
Can you explain how you reconcile your idea with:
1) The Liberal ideal of avoiding deficit
2) The Liberal ideal of awarding tax cuts
3) watching government revenue shrink massively as result of the GFC
No 145
I think Turnbull is wrong to suggest tax cuts.
Yes, but what about credit card interest rates…
I give GP credit for sticking to his principles. I’m sure he knows, however, that no practical politician of any party is going to try to apply that principle in a modern industrial society when revenue has collapsed, because it would result in a deep and prolonged depression and a radical reduction of living standards. We know this because that is what happened in the 1890s and the 1930s when this defunct economic orthodoxy was applied.
Even without tax cuts it would be difficult to incorporate your expensive idea, while avoiding a deficit at the very time when all sectors of the community are screaming for government assistance and intervention.
There’s a few tens of billions of tax breaks that the coal, gas and petroleum industries get. If we’re cutting revenue how about that.
Or is it only people with children who have to pay more?
No 148
Adam, as I have said many times, Australia’s economic situation is nowhere near that of its European, Asian or American counterparts. We do not need radical pump priming.
Our banks are immensely profitable, the CBA has just increased its profit forecast. Growth is flat, but not dire. Unemployment is still very low.
The treasury forecasts might indicate dire circumstances in the future – but who would believe them when they consistently miscalculated the budget surpluses.
By the way, do the 9450 schools who are getting $200,000 include private schools?
In other words, Rudd is using the global financial crisis as a trojan horse to discard his “unapologetic” economic conservative mantra and resume old fashioned big government socialism.
GP
No reductions to defence spending? Still going to pay the Americans $20B plus for a few new planes? Is that responsible now?
So instead you want the federal government to profit from the lost jobs and misery of the populace? You’re religiously wedded to your broken economic theories.
This, if done by the Liberals at any stage of the economic cycle, would be derided by 90% of the people here as a blatant cash bribe and “middle-class welfare”.
No 156
Yes, the hypocrisy and double standards knows no bounds.
GP
Can you explain whow you would fund your “solar panels” idea?
Quick thumbnail estimation. $6000 per house. 8 000 000 houses. Equals 48 billion.
That alone would take the budget deeply into defiict.
Meanwhile govt revenue is shrinking massively … and all sectors of the community are screaming for help.
How would you juggle those many demands and constraints, while fulfilling your “plan” AND remaining in surplus?
Spending cuts? Where?
No 154
Socrates, my earlier suggestions were by no means comprehensive. But all options would be on the table and would be revealed in due season.
Wow, some protesters are going nuts in the House of Representatives.
people in the gallery are going mad right now…
No 158
Of course, it would not be done in one financial year but over five to ten years. The point is that such a plan would add considerably more credibility to Rudd’s “nation-building” mantra. To be frank, there wasn’t much nation building in that plan – mainly bail outs of state and local government responsibilities.
160… “Stop the intervention – human rights for all”
Over what?
Please don’t say climate change.
Oh good.
No 163
How about those protesters go back home and look after their children. I am unashamedly proud of the paternal “tough love” approach of the intervention. Absolutely necessary and about time. You can’t have rights if these communities don’t even respect the rule of law.
So that would mitigate the GFC-led slowdown how? The time for action is right now. Maybe yesterday.
No 167
There is no need for dramatic action. Our economy is not falling apart.
Great, so you don’t think that unemployment increasing by 50% in 2 years is signs of an economic downturn!? That’s the kind of head in the sand nonsense that will kill the Liberal party.
Generic Person. There is a dramatic disaster sandbagging the economies of the world. Every day seems to turn up more damaging implications. Yet you say there is no need for dramatic action.
Imagine the reception of the electorate if the Liberals followed your do-nothing ideal. How economically-credible would it appear to be sitting on one’s hands as the tsunami rolls in?
No 169
ShowsOn, there hasn’t been a 50% increase in unemployment. They are merely predictions, but we all know how unpredictable the situation has been in the last 6 months.
No 170
I wasn’t talking about other economies, I was talking about Australia. In a climate where several US banks are sustaining massive losses and Chapter 11 bankruptcy, Australia’s banks are making huge profits and the CBA has upgraded its forecasts. I repeat, the only people with their heads in the sand are the doomsayers in the Australian Government and their misguided sheep herewith.
That’s where it is headed.
WOW, this is even worse than I thought, you’re an economic nihilist. You may as well advocate abolishing the treasury department.
And Malcolm Turnbull and Julie Bishop who have been saying we are headed for recession for longer than the government.
How about this; instead of $13 billion in bribes and $4 billion in ceiling insulation, the money goes towards free solar panels and other forms of renewable energy generation this year, and other funds are allocated to continue the solar project over the next half a decade.
Not only does this directly create jobs, develop Australia’s solar industry, cut greenhouse gas emissions and save $600 a year in electricity bills, but as posters here are always pointing out, direct government investment has a much bigger positive effect on GDP then cash handouts.
Australia is not immune. The world economy is a tightly-integrated affair. Take the Great Depression. The US sneezed, Australia caught pneumonia. The global economy is even more tightly interdependent now that it was in the 1920s/’30s.
We now face the situation of not just the US faltering, but the giants of China and Europe. Our economic health is largely predicated on that of China. This is not the right time to “do nothing”. You might get away with that as Howard did, during a boom. Now the boom has busted.
GP – if everything is so rosey for us why your tough love solutions as outlined above? Surely nothing needs to happen.
No 175
Oz, thanks for agreeing with my policy of nationwide solar panels.
No 176
Cuppa, not good enough. You may as well sign up as Rudd’s propaganda secretary. As I said, the GFC has given Rudd the perfect trojan horse to discard economic conservatism and reinstitute big government, deficit-laden socialism.
179 – Adam has your measure on this.
Adam is curiously silent. But of course, I did not expect you to agree with me.
Everyone generating their own power from solar panels – now that’s a way to make the unemployment rate shoot up quick fast and in a hurry.
I think insulation is a very good thing to spend money on. People who don’t have a fully insulated house are throwing money away.
My guestimate is it would cost $10 billion for every house in the nation to get solar cells. but the problem is, we don’t have enough capacity to make enough cells. So we would just end up importing them. Whereas we do manufacture spun fibre glass insulation, so more money would stay in our economy.
Good on Kevin Rudd. He managed to fire up GP enough to encourage him out of his hole.
GP @178.
I’m not ashamed at all to agree with you on this. It’s a brilliant policy. But I’m not calling it yours =P.
Heather Ridout (what a socialist she is) – “They have got it right.”
The HOWARD government spent more as a percentage of the economy than the RUDD government in its last three years.
The HOWARD government spent BIG during a BOOM. The RUDD government is spending big during a BUST.
Why? You’d create thousands of jobs installing and maintaining the things.
GP, the response “not good enough” applies in spades to one who advocates doing nothing while the most severe downturn since the Great Depression (maybe the worst ever) rolls towards our shores.
It is, and you probably don’t even need to cut back on the insulation thing. The bribes are enough.
A comprehensive solar industry support package with tax incentives and government guaranteed investment. starting now would ensure the development of a large scale solar industry.
No 187
Keep shouting from the rooftops ShowsOn, I’m sure someone is listening.
No 189
Have to agree with Oz. With guaranteed billions, the big solar manufacturers would set up in no time at all.
Personally, if we absolutely must spend big, then let’s spend it somewhere demonstrably useful.
Just stating some facts, I’m sorry they upset you so much.
BTW today is a historic day. Peter Costello made his first parliamentary speech since 20th September 2007.
Adam has been doing actual work. Sorry.
No 193
It’s probably about time to grow some round ones and take the leadership. I’m still waiting.
Keep waiting.
Solar panel construction and maintenence job numbers would come nowhere close to what we employ for electricity generation, fossil fuel collection and gathering, and all the associated management of it. Not to mention the training.
No 188
Cuppa, we don’t have 25% unemployment, mass homelessness, bank bankruptcies in Australia. In the US and Europe there is a sound case for government intervention, but not here.
No 197
Who said that the coal industry had to be shut down.
Nor would it immediately displace existing power generators as PV is unable to generate baseload power on its own.
This is why I stated that other forms of renewable energy such as solar thermal and wind should also be built.
Some people might think that I’m being choosy, and that “Spending is spending”. This is incorrect. A cash handout is a cash handout. This specific type of infrastructure investment creatures more jobs, develops new high-tech industries, saves Australian’s hundreds of dollars in power bills and would cut Australia’s total GHG emissions by 6%*.
*If people think this is low for switching to RE energy, keep in mind it is purely about solar PV for households. Household energy consumption makes up about 17% of all energy consumption in Australia, and energy consumption is reponsible for 50% of CO2 emissions. A 3kW solar PV system will cut household emissions by 70%.
Oh OK, let’s do nothing then.
Let’s have the federal government make profits from the misery of all the people who lose their jobs.
Instant electoral analysis of the stimulus package from Possum. Biggest loser (or, if you prefer, smallest winner): Wentworth.
Solar panels alone would not replace the need for coal fired power stations in Australians.
We soon would have if GP’s neo-Niemeyerian policy of cutting government spending to match the fall in revenue were to be applied. This is exactly what was done in the 1930s, and the consequence was to turn a sharp recession into a prolonged depression.
As Neville Chamberlain proclaimed: “Peace in our time”, GP. Nothing to see here.
I’m predicting that, as the GFC bites into Australia’s real economy people like you will sit up and belatedly take notice. But it won’t be the GFC’s fault; no it will be the fault of the Rudd government.
A handy out-clause for one who would do nothing to avert catastrophe, even as it approaches.
Bob Brown.
You’re right. Let’s do nothing until catastrophe hits. Then at least you will have peace of mind, eh?
No but with everyone on solar power, it would slash electricity generation would be slashed.
Distractions. Me fail english? That’s umpossible.
Buy a solar hot water system instead. They are upping the rebate from $1000 to $1600.
No 207
There is no catastrophie, just bull and bluster from the Prime Minister and his incompetent Treasurer. If I was an ALP supporter, I’d be vouching for a Gillard/Tanner usurpation.
LOL William, Wentworth. It is in the same breath surprising but not surprising.
No 206
Yes, we’ve all come to expect such idiocy from Mr Brown.
bada-bing!!! Try the veal!
If you were an ALP supporter, you’d double your IQ
William, Possum added an update:
Even though Wentworth looks like the seat with the least stimulus on these measures – it’s actually second last. Melbourne Ports is last with a ratio of 9 on the school kids to voters (taking it way off the chart to the left) and a FTB B proportion of 4.2%. If I included Melbourne Ports on the chart it would have bunched everything up and made it unreadable.
Well GP if you just want to give us shallow political laugh-lines, that’s up to you. It just shows you’re as out of touch as your leader. If anyone’s going to roll anyone over the next 12 months, it will be Costello rolling Turnbull, but this is all just piffle compared to the scale of the issues we are discussing.
No 216
Adam, calling your political opponent “out of touch” is about as shallow a retort as they come. But I guess principal was never one of your strongest traits.
For the record, given that Turnbull/Bishop have been so awful in the last three months, I fully expect a leadership change soon.
The outrage is growing every day. Ruddster should show Obama how to do it without upsetting everyone. And Diog is still defending the indefensible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7866308.stm
bob,
That should read “taking it way off the chart to the right”. It was me not being able to tell my left from my right.
It’s been a long day.
No catastrophe, a prediction of relatively low unemployment – gee GP tell us your sources for this info.
Two spelling corrections on my part: No 211 – catastrophe not catastrophie; No 217 – principle not principal.
GP, i have already given you my advice. Put Cossie in now and he will be in the Lodge by Xmas, else your side is completely ffffed.
Interesting to note Costello was the only other member of Parliament to speak during the condolence motions…
Costello would have been better in 2007 after the loss hence we’d have stuck by one person if Costello takes over now we’d have 4 leaders in 3 years…a terrible look.
I think Turnbull will take us to 2010…but i thought Nelson would too…
There isnt much after Turnbull…Hockey, Bishop, Hunt???
Anyway it would have to stay 60/40 for the entire year for heads to roll…
No 222
Costello is about the only half-competent person able to lead right now. Even though I’d much prefer Tony Abbott.
He doesn’t believe in predictions. For G.P., any prediction ACTUALLY means its complete opposite.
Um, how? Do you think Bryce is going to sack Rudd?
Only rusteds think Costello can save them. The public hate him and his persona, and he’s too tied down to WorkChoices et al.
Bob the only person in parliament tied down to WC is Kevin Andrews…
SNIP: See Article 3 of comment moderation guidelines – The Management.
But at least he made his first speech today in over a year. So he is obviously saying YO I’M STILL HERE!
No 226
Howard had a record of recession as a former Treasurer, yet was still elected PM. It would appear people in Australia have short political memories.
No 228
Of course I know Abbott hasn’t a chance (even Abbott knows that himself), hence my pragmatic preference for Costello.
The only other alternative is to use the next election to renew like Labor did in 1998.
222 – I must be missing something Finn. Explain how costello would be in The Lodge by this Christmas.
Not when it comes to Serf Choices in a time of high unemployment.
“Bob the only person in parliament tied down to WC is Kevin Andrews…”
Only a rusted could even fathom saying that. The average joe doesn’t think that for a second, and are right to boot.
Glen, what about Joe Hockey? He was, I believe, IR Minister for longer than Andrews. How many TV interviews did he give spruiking its alleged “benefits”? Come off it, Hockey is irrevocably stained by that Liberal policy.
Then there’s Julie Bishop, who’s spoken in defence of it again and again. Malcolm Turnbull, who said it was “the most important reform to industrial relations in the history of Australia,”. Costello, HR Nicholls Society co-founder, who was always an IR extremist, and advocated taking SerfChoices further. Minchin who apologised to the HR Nicholls Society for not taking it further.
Heck, they’re all tied to it; they all voted for it when in government. And I’d bet any number of them still support it, though it would be politically suicidal to admit it.
True GP. Costello is only about half competent.
There are only 2 reasons for Costello to want to remain in Parliament…
1st – Is because he doesnt want to do anything else and has a warm seat and a good pay cheque every year…
2nd – Is that he still wants to be PM but this time win it for himself…not get it given to him by Unca Howie as was the case before…
“Howard had a record of recession as a former Treasurer, yet was still elected PM. It would appear people in Australia have short political memories.”
No, just 13 years of Labor. The poor Libs only managed to reach 11.
Glen 223 //There isnt much after Turnbull…Hockey, Bishop, Hunt???//
GUFFFFAAAWWWW!!! Stop it!! You’re killing me!
It did take Howard about 13 years and several bites at the cherry though. Costello for PM in 2020?
“Bob the only person in parliament tied down to WC is Kevin Andrews…”
oh wc = workchoices
for a moment there I thought you meant Kevin Andrews has chronic diarrhoea
From GP at #166
“How about those protesters go back home and look after their children. I am unashamedly proud of the paternal “tough love” approach of the intervention. Absolutely necessary and about time. ”
You should be ashamed GP.
With respect to child sexual abuse there is no evidence that indigenous people do NOT look after their children any more or less than other communities in Australia.
The rates of child sexual abuse [CSA] in remote indigenous communities do NOT differ significantly from rates in, say, Toorak or Vaucluse, wherever.
There is precious little credible methodlogically sound evidence about CSA rates in indigenous communities, the hysterical bleatings of politicians and the media notwithstanding, but what indicators are available suggest that in fact rates are near enough the same or, perhaps even LOWER than in white Australia in general.
I challenge you to provide sound evidence, not the unsubstantiated rantings of media and pollies, that CSA is as prevalent in indigenous communities as we have been led to believe.
And just to show that we should be sceptical of what has been one of the main underpinnings of a shameful invasion and re-colonisation of our indigenous people I offer as a starting point this:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/06/1972244.htm
“NT child abuse figures ‘not a stand out’
which includes this:
“”If we look at the Northern Territory about 4 per cent of all substantiated cases of child abuse and neglect were for sexual abuse in Indigenous children.
“But for other children, that is people who haven’t identified as being Indigenous, it is actually 9 per cent and that’s a pretty consistent finding across all the jurisdictions.”
And, if you want to be better informed than getting your opiniond from the media consider the writings of the piping shrike on this issue:
http://www.pipingshrike.com/2008/12/what-damage-a-dying-government-did.html
I dont think you’ll find many Tories who like Kevin Andrews…what a waste of a blue ribbon seat…
225, 233
Cossie is the greatest treasurer we ever had, brought us 12 years unequal economic prosperity and growth, paid off Labor’s $96B, etc etc. We need him, we want him and we love him, just ask people skill abbott. So put him in now, the people will demand “We need him, we want him and we love him”, even the King sang about him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qf0ODuwA-0
So by pure public clamouring, Rudd will resign and Cossie will be appointed as the PM to save us and the economy. And also the pigs will start flying.
Hey Socrates, where’d you get the $10 billion figure?
I’m trying to do a reasonable quantification of the benefits of putting 2-3kW panels up on all Australian homes in terms of government expenditure, savings in electricity bills and GHG reductions but that $10 billion number seems low.
At 227 Glen wrote:
At 244 he wrote:
Is that why you’re trying to stick him with the sole odium for SerfChoices? Besides that being unfair on himb*, it’s dishonest.
____
b* As a rule, “fairness” and “Kevin Andrews” should not normally be used in the same sentence.
True GP@230. But then Howard disgusted people in so many ways i dont think they will for get the little man very easily.
glen,
c0stell is playing te last man standing game. wuld e want te jb wit mincin, abbtt etc still arund wit teir wn persnal agendas. i believe e’ll wait until te libs are prepared t give im everyting.
Thanks Finn (245). Got it.
I would suggest the next LNP prime Minister is yet to be elected to parliment…
Malcolm Turnbul is fighting for his political life, but he is doing a very bad job of it.
His effort on the 7.30 Report last night was poor, because he thought OK I’ll go on, no big deal. Except it was a big deal.
Kerry did not ask any questions that Malcolm should not have had an answer to. If he had bothered to take his job seriously he would have had a “mock interview” in his office. Most politicians do it, I am sure Sidonis grilled Howard before did a major interview.
Malcolm is lazy. That is why he will never be PM, his tenure in politics is upto his party, but I am sure there is someone with the work ethic to do it better.
Cuppa
Howie and Kevin Andrews produced the Workchoices legislation that made the fatal mistake of not continuing with the previous no disadvantage test…Howie lost his seat, yet Andrews still has his…
Hockey tried to turn this around…
Hence it is my belief only Andrews and Howie should share the blame for that mistake.
GG @ 249
Have you borrowed Ron’s keyboards?
Mao, you mean:
I would suggest the next LNP prime Minister is yet to be born? yes, it’s going to be a Long March for the LNP. Did they preserve any part of Ming’s DNA for cloning?
Glen, out of interest, here is how the Sydney Morning Herald described the formative days leading to the conception SerfChoices:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/last-push-to-realise-a-dream-of-30-years/2005/10/14/1128796712441.html
Note that many were involved (though unnamed). Note also how quick Howard was to enlist the input of business union bosses, Hendy and Anderson. Yet he and the Liberals always make a big noise about the Labor Party being “beholden to union bosses”.
GG, are you pretending to be Ron hoo karnt spel hiz ohn naem?
This is quite possible considering he didn’t actually make a speech last year.
And one named “Menzies” at that!
adam,
red wine plus eybard = luent rnglis.
ShowsOn ive always said that you could throw out at least a dozen MPs on both sides who arent performing…normally you’d sack someone not doing a job properly and yet we keep incompetent people on for years and years…
If the Libs were smart they’d get rid of 15+MPs next year and bring in 15 new MPs…
How do the Libs control preselection? Is it purely controlled at branch level, or does the Federal/State executive get a say like with Labor?
Well er yes, maybe.
Whoever makes the most lamingtons wins.
Seriously, one problem they have is that the executives have less power to intervene, which is why they often pre-select duds. The ALP executives both national and state go out of their way to stop that from happening.
People thought Turnbull was a good performer, in government, and has been proven otherwise in opposition.
If Costello happens to become leader, I can’t wait for the same fate. Being in opposition, combined with his arrogant persona, will go down an absolute treat with the voting public.
I for one can’t wait!
Malcolm Turnbull has basically endorsed the budget going into deficit, his view is that a similar amount of money should have been spent on tax cuts, but he did not argue against the amount. (Well I think thats what he said).
But Warren Truss in the MPI debate says the complete opposite, that deficits are bad, that future generations will be paying off the debt.
Is this good cop – bad cop?
What is the coalitions position? Julie Bishop was incomprehensible as usual.
The Libs’ endorsement process (they don’t actually call it preselection) is by a vote of branch members. But because the Libs don’t have a residence requirement for branch membership, their process is completely open to mass branch-stacking – much more than Labor’s admittedly far from perfect process. We saw this in Cook in 2007, when Towke stacked the Cook branches with Lebanese from all over Sydney. Michael Johnson was originally endorsed mainly because of votes from people living in Hong Kong – apparently you don’t even have to be an Australian citizen to join the Liberal Party.
It seems the WA Liberal Govt like the Stimulus package
That should upset the federal LIbs 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/03/2481461.htm
Is anyone watching the MPI debate in the House? I have never seen such a feeble Opposition attack.
Yeah, like the did with Belinda Neal. =P
Thanks for the info, btw.
With Troy’s track record ,he probably thinks an “economic stimulus package” is a cheap vibrator …
Adam, just put on House of Reps streaming from aph.gov site… seems pretty boring to me. I don’t even recognise who’s speaking at the moment.
Adam
There was no strategy from the opposition – except maybe to defend the Howard years.
Turnbull, Bishop and Truss contradicted each other.
Bill Shorten was good.
On another point before QT Turnbull mentioned a change to the Opposition Ministry. Anyone know what the change – changes were?
“With Troy’s track record ,he probably thinks an “economic stimulus package” is a cheap vibrator …”
LOL!!!
ACA talked about the stimulus package with, wait for it, Andrew Bolt and John Symonds (Aussie Home Loans). Symonds was defending the package. Bolt didn’t have a kind word saying he thought Rudd was making it up as he is going along. Symonds pointed out that things were changing so quickly decisions have to be made quickly and action taken.
Bloody Bolt? Honestly, who are you going to take notice of in regard to financial matters, someone who is in the business or a tin pot journalist with a grudge against Rudd?
so how exactly will we be getting our $950? cheque? bank deposit?
GB
Serves you right for watching ACA.
Oz at least Neal had the guts to stand in HOR . I’d like to see your lot do that. Maybe when the LNPG party gets off the ground eh? You and GP seem to be in agreement today
275 – What you mean “we” whiteman?
276 – yeah, that’ll teach me to channel surf.
“A one-off lump sum tax bonus of $950 will be paid via a cheque in the mail or electronic transfer from April for all taxpayers earning up to $80000.”
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25002054-952,00.html
So what do you expect Bolt to say Gary? Any lefty or labor party person who pretends to be left will be criticised by Bolt and he is called an expert by ACA what next?
Actually the ABC also sees this dill as an expert.
Eh? Want to tone done the partisanship? The comment about Neal was a reflection that she had lost the ballot but was still pre-selected.
And if by “your lot” you mean The Greens, I believe they contested every seat at the last Federal election. If not all of them then a vast, vast majority.
Yes, GP and I both agree that a government initiative to install solar panels on the roofs of all Australians is a good policy. I don’t know his exact reasons but mine have been stated. It provides proves a bigger boost to the economy than handouts, it will save Australians hundreds of dollars a year and it will meet and exceed the government’s greenhouse gas targets. Three birds with one stone, not bad.
I assume that the money will be paid in the same way that your last tax refund was paid?
Their is one way to bring down the deficit and we should increase taxes on the rich.
Britain has done it and we should. Use the money to help people who will feel the effects and also do more about Climate Change. Much more.
But isn’t there a huge overlap between ACA watchers, and Andrew Bolt readers?
I think it was just ACA playing up to their base.
Will The Greens, Feilding and Mr X pass the package in The Senate?
The Coalition may be hairy chested about “consultation” but it is not up to them.
Same audience on the ABC shows on?
Ruawake, in many cases that will mean some destitute supporting mother will recieve her child support, courtesy of the ATO who will redirect the payment to her from her former non paying partner’s entitlement..
“Will The Greens, Feilding and Mr X pass the package in The Senate? ”
It would be electoral suicide for the coalition not to pass it ruawake.
Dunno. But if the Liberals block it the full ire of the government will be aimed squarely at them and if doesn’t get passed, they’ll cop the fall out. I think they know that and won’t end up blocking up.
281 – “Actually the ABC also sees this dill as an expert’
Dont worry. they are no “expert” left. Anyone and everyone can be an “expert” these days if they want to and put their mind into it. Some of the so called experts that regularly grace shows like Insiders, 730 Report, Lateline, Sky Agenda etc are good only for their comic value. They usually just prop each other up without saying or showing any insight. Especially Insiders and Agenda.
Fredex @ 243
If you happen to know what is going on, do you think there is any real qualititative difference between Howard and Rudd Governments on the intervention?
I dont like Rudd but i do like the fact he makes National Address’s…he’s done more than Howard did in 11 years in Government…
Now would be a very good time for labour, liberals and the nationals to do a bit of spring cleaning. Labour because it can afford to, the Liberals and Nationals because they can’t afford not to.
“I dont like Rudd but i do like the fact he makes National Address’s…he’s done more than Howard did in 11 years in Government…”
I wonder if Glen’s little brother has got on Glen’s computer again. Surely this can’t be from Glen himself.
Rudd has said the package needs to be passed by the end of this week, but so far the Opposition has said they will not act so quickly.
It will pass the HoR of course, so its swill time. Bob Brown is threatening to delay it so I guess its crash or crash through time.
My bet is it will pass – I wonder who blinks first, the Coalition or the Greens?
GP&Adam, welcome back. It must be sitting week or something.
The sound of one hand clapping on this Blog was getting a little repetitive.
ESJ, please return to the fray.
If it passes without Coalition support, Labor will be grinning ear to ear.
I don’t think anyone will care if The Greens, Xenophon or Fielding support it or not, if it passes with Coalition support.
B*gger it all, just had the insulation done. But, why not an open grant of x per house, with individual householders and industry sorting out the best energy value for buck in each particular situation?
This four year plan is not as strategic and detailed as your five year state GOSplans of yesteryear, but we are getting there. I can feel the dead hand coming on.
Oddly that could apply to Andrew Symonds as well…
Who will front up to Kerry?
Tanner is my guess.
there you go again Glen, being sensible…
look just stop it! my agreeing with you is not good for my health!
I always said they are having it too soft in Canberra.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/02/03/north-sumatra-house-speaker-beaten-death-crowd.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/protest-sees-headlock-in-question-time/2009/02/03/1233423208777.html
Ooh, Kevin himself.
Kerry: [double edged sword of thew interest rate cuts]
What??? for whom?
Well Chris Richardson just gave it a huge tick:
“Historians will look back and say today was the day Australia turned the corner]
Grog
Self funded retired folk are not happy about falling interest rates.
Expect anothe nude protest with Fielding stripping off in sympathy
307 thanks ruawake.
Have to say, I’m not cying a river for them on this issue.
On other matters, obviously this means next week’s newspoll will be a bit of a bump for the ALP?
That’s a demography that’s never won Labor an election …
Kerry asked why did Rudd need to make a National Address – calls it “a package of anxiety”
Wonder if Turnbull will do his own version…
kev had red kerry on toast tonite
Because when he does, people listen? And it prevents his message being perverted and deliberatley mangled by the MSM?
“On other matters, obviously this means next week’s newspoll will be a bit of a bump for the ALP?”
65-35?
Lets see who will not be happy with Rudd’s plan?
Self Funded folk.
Unemployed who do not seek training.
The Liberal Party (Except the WA branch).
The National Party (Except Farmers).
The Greens (Who wanted $42 Billion spent on PV cells)
Idiots who bet against the banks and fixed their interest rates.
Any other suggestions?
Didnt Turnbull do one last time in a retort to Rudd…
Anyway i like having the pollies on TV doing national address’s…the only time Howard did them was when we went to War…
Who you calling an idiot ruawake? Bloody banks ….
Fulvio
You cannot beat the banks on fixed interest rates, they win every time. So if you fixed your interest rate – yep. The cap fits.
Oz 246
I didn’t make any statement about $10 billion in benefits from solar panels??? Unfortunately unless the cost per panel comes down I think it would be quite hard to justify putting 2-3 kw of solar panels on every roof. We have about 6 1/2 million homes, so at about $25k each that would cost $160 billion. And that would only reduce/repalce domestic power use – the majority (industrial power use) would still remain. Meanwhile for $160 billion you could replace every one of our 40 odd coal fired power stations (say $2 billion each for coal; $5 billion each for alternative). Hence at any carbon price, I think it would be better to spend the money on other alternative energy sources.
Sorry Oz, we have solar panels and solar hot water and I sympathise with your aims, but unless the cost per solar panel comes down I don’t think they represent the best use of money for new energy sources. Solar hot water is very efficient though; I’m just concerned with the panels.
Didnt Rudd say the last 10b will create 75000 new jobs?
Now he’s talking about another 90000???
Has Rudd got any figures to show us that he’s boosted employment or is this just a big porky pie!
Boerwar at #292
Don’t ask me, ask the people in the gallery today.
Actually thats a bit facetious of me.
I know from talking to a few insiders but I don’t have info that is not generally open to the public albeit in very restricted form.
Which is why I would recommend piping shrike’s column.
He shows pretty conclusively that there was never any substantive evidence at all for the CSA allegations made by the COALition and media to support the invasion.
And from damn near 30 years of involvement in the field of studying CSA I know what the rates are around [white, rich etc] Australia and no one has ever suggested we send the army in, confiscate mansions etc in place like Toorak etc..
There is a lot of info out there about CSA, or the relative lack of, in indigenous communities. And the other issues as well. Try googling, you will be surprised how the COALition claims were refuted by many authoritive persons.
But it was drowned by a hysterical media.
As for the ALP.
They have to share a lot of the shame.
Before and after ‘07.
Glen
“Experts” were saying there would be 20,000 job losses when the ABS released the last job data.
Except there were only 1200 jobs “lost”.
Can you explain this?
No but that doesnt tell me whether Rudd lied by saying the last 10b would create 75000 new jobs…that was a purphy plain and simple because Rudd and Co wont tell us what the last stimulus package did so how do we even know that was successfull. Rudd and Co are throwing the kitchen sink at trying to avoid an official recession…
so they should.
And yep Turbnull did do a reply last time. Going by that, he would be better served not to this time round…
No 297
Glad to be welcomed back.
How can anyone provide a detail report on what the last stimulus packaged achieved? Can’t be done, period. That would be like claiming that you’ve missed catching 4 colds last winter because you take mega doses of vitamin C. You tell if you caught a cold but you can’t tell how many you avoided.
No 320
If the government puts an order in for 6.5 million solar panels, the price is sure to come down; at any rate it would not be spending committed all at once. As I said, I would expect such a policy to be phased in over 5 to ten years which means the cost is not that extreme and is of far better value than giving handouts that will only delay the inevitable.
My reasons for supporting universal solar are mostly the same as Oz’s. Even if you’re a climate change skeptic, decentralising power generation is a good idea.
I agree Grog – Turnbull would be well advised to not ask for a ‘right of reply’ gig on TV. He would find himself in a no win situation.
Steve K especially if we go by his performance on Kerry last night, and today in parliament.
Good time to keep your head down – no votes are going to be won at the moment.
Turnbull did look a bit silly in Paliament today when he all but admitted his “evidence” that the last stimulus package had failed was Gerry Harvey.
Westfield and Woolies refute this assertion – but so what it does not fit. So it is ignored.
No 327
It obviously didn’t do much because Rudd has introduced another package just three months later. To me, handout-based stimulus packages become self-defeating, the better long-term strategy if one must go into deficit is to introduce further tax cuts.
No 330
Grog, Rudd was just as insufferable tonight. The guy bumbles on without saying anything at all. I’m almost certain he has rote-learned the words strategy, global, decisive, plan, crisis, such that every speech contains them without fail. Rudd is an abomination.
“Rudd is an abomination.”
Pity the polls don’t agree with you. Only the rusteds do.
No 331
ruawake, it is rather amusing watching both sides come to the defence of big corporations over whose “figures” are the most correct.
Um, no. This will push the price up because the manufacturers will know they have a huge order to fill (Government releases $500 rebate for LPG tanks, so the price of LPG tanks goes up by a few hundreds dollars). And we don’t have enough manufacturing capacity, so we will have to buy most of the panels from overseas, which will send money out of our economy.
gp,
relevance de iciency. never mind. 0nly a decade 0r s0 t0 g0.
Ha GP
Tax cuts permanently reduce Govt revenue. Meaning deficits last longer.
How long do you think these tax cuts should be in place?
I guess this means tax revenues will be highest when taxes are 0.1%
Heather Ridout backing the Rudd package?
I bet the Liberals must be fuming. GP would be hiding it though. But really, they all are.
Heather Ridout defied David Spears and said no, we don’t need further tax cuts, we already have tax cuts that will come in to effect at each tax time for the next few years to come, it’s better to spread out the methods of stimulus like the Rudd government has done/is doing.
Go Heather!!
Ridout also supported Workchoices i suppose you knew that already before you woohooed her eh bob?
GP
Large orders coudl result in economies of scale, but that is true for the other alternative power sources as well. The French saved a bundle mass producing nuclear power plants to a single standard design in the 70s. That argument applies to wind and base load solar as well. Again, I’m not against solar, but the current resource/supply cost of solar PV panels is too high.
Also, I’d recommend people read George Monbiot’s book Heat on the realities of power networks. Getting rid of the grid is not so easy, and also works against some alternative energy options. I’d actually like to see us invest more in the grid, but orientated towards likely sources of alternatives, not just coal mines.
showson.. ummm that makes no sense.
I woohoo’ed her for being a Liberal stooge, but supporting the package, which is why I praised her and not the ACTU secretary’s praise of the package.
Over to you Glen!
Rudd would save more Carbon emissions if he bucked up and backed Nuclear Energy than his stupid waste of money insulating houses…
I know, it’s Julie Bishop’s policy:
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/02/julie-bishop-is-at-it-again.html
I support nuclear energy, but I don’t think paying for insulation is a waste of money. Anything that enhances energy efficiency is good.
“Ridout and the AIG were notable last year for refusing to join the disastrous business-funded advertising campaign in support of WorkChoices, which was supposed to be politically neutral but which was unfortunately developed by Liberal pollsters Crosby-Textor.”
SNIP: See Article 13 of comment moderation guidelines.
GP, Bob Dylan wrote a song about your side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO0gSJGJ7Fs
No 338
There’s always the possibility of sunset clauses on stimulus tax cuts, but then again, overall I don’t really support the tax cuts because I don’t believe we need deficit spending.
The thing that the Government and the Reserve Bank have forgotten is that many of their stimuli have a time lag, particularly monetary policy. Rudd’s pump priming, the Reserve Bank’s is extremely expansionary, whilst everyone is still uncertain as to where we’ll be in 6 months let alone 4 years.
Finns, my family is quite comfortable and hasn’t lost a dime in this crisis. So please save me the melodramatic musings of know-nothing musicians/celebrities.
Sure Socrates but spending what 2b on it when we need every penny to try and avoid a recession is just stupid, spend the money on it when we’re not heading for a recession…
No 350
Glen said that, not me.
Home insulation is a baby step, but I would have preferred heavy investment in CCS, solar and other renewables.
This is just silly. Even if the government didn’t spend an extra cent, the dramatic drop in tax revenues would result in a $3 billion deficit this financial year.
So if you don’t think there should be a deficit, you are actually endorsing cutting government spending.
It is a good thing to spend money on, it reduces green house gases and energy bills, and is an investment that remains after the current bust. It also keeps money in the domestic economy.
A hypothetical.
If Rudd accepted Ms Bishops view that reducing taxes would raise revenue, but only as a temporary measure. Would the Coalition object when taxes were raised to pre financial swindle levels?
Ha pigs may levitate.
Jesus, Troy Buswell’s grown sideburns.
Showson, the Julie Bishop saga got even funnier after Peter Martin sent her office a couple of emails…
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/02/tuesday-column-its-budget-not-package.html
No 356
That’s better than a $22.5 billion deficit this financial year and $35 billion next year. It’s hardly silly, ShowsOn.
Yes, cutting spending is prudent.
Just saw that on the ABC I’m guessing William?
Not in the current economic climate.
Cutting spending during an economic downturn, will your nonsense ever end?
Your mob should’ve been cutting spending all through the Howard years.
WHAT! I thought she sourced everything from the Wall Street Journal!
If the wanted result is a pruned and dying economy.
No 359
Bishop truly is an idiot. Turnbull should dismiss her immediately.
Correct, GM. Only 15 minutes until I get to see Kevin Rudd humiliate Kerry O’Brien (or so I’ve been led to understand).
No 362
ShowsOn, a prudent government that is aware of the fact that the money it spends is that of the people will cut spending when there is a drop in revenues. Howard did it 1996 when Keating’s secret $9 billion deficit was discovered.
Yeah G.P., but she’s YOUR idiot.
Kerry basically shuts up and lets Rudd go back through his press release.
No 366
It wasn’t a humiliation William. Rudd said nothing substantive so Kerry had nothing to criticise. All I saw was a lot of meaningless blather and hand movement on Rudd’s part.
ShowsOn she no more an idiot than Swan who thought he’d tell people that they can save money on their shopping bills by shopping around for prices…
No 364
The government does not have a great deal of control over the economy. We are not a communist country, despite the wishes of some Labor party operatives. Thus the lack of government intervention will not spell the end of our economy, except in the extreme circumstances seen overseas. Those extreme circumstances have not been witnessed in Australia.
No 370
Glen, sorry, but Bishop is aloof. She’s worse than Swan and I never would have thought I would have to say that.
This is economic lunacy. If private investment declines, public investment should go up by the same rate.
Governments should run surpluses during booms, and deficits during busts. Doing the opposite is crazy.
During the first two Howard government budgets, if he didn’t cut or spend a cent extra (in real terms) the budget would’ve returned to surplus just 18 months after it did.
When the economy is growing strongly, surpluses are all but inevitable. When economies stop growing, deficits are all but inevitable.
At least the coalition had a modicum of credibility when Turnbull was shadow Treasurer. We now have zero thanks to Bishop’s idiotic statements and plagiarism.
interesting1
http://economics.com.au/?p=2376
GP then who should take over??
Hockey or Dutton?
GP 346
That is a non sequiter. Home insulation is consistently shown to be a good investment, regardless of the source of the energy saved. Nuclear energy by contrast is an expensive option, regardless of environmental issues. There are cheaper ways to save emissions.
No 373
Sorry, it’s only lunacy to those who subscribe to Keynesian economics. I am not a Keynesian. Read some of Thomas Sowell for some sobering thoughts on the value of government intervention.
Well that shatters the Costello mythology.
No 377
I repeat, Glen commented @ 346. It wasn’t me.
Rua watching Keating last night reminded us all that nobody in Australia has a bigger ego than PJ Keating…
Some people need to shop around and buy specials just to get by week-to-week. I don’t think we should hold such people in contempt.
Name another organisation – other than governments – that are able to invest $14 billion building school infrastructure.
No, it will just condemn a whole heap of people to Centrelink queues, while the government is able to profit from their misery.
So your solution is to wait for things to get really, really bad before doing anything. The Head in Sand approach. Great, at least you are honest.
“The government does not have a great deal of control over the economy.”
Heed this folks. It’s one of the very rare times that a Liberal will admit this. And it’s despite them being so-called adherants to a free-market economy.
No 381
Paul Keating thinks everything that happens in this nation is thanks to his great vision. Pffft. Such an insufferable, intolerable, insalubrious twat.
“Rua watching Keating last night reminded us all that nobody in Australia has a bigger ego than PJ Keating…”
Except Costello.
“Paul Keating thinks everything that happens in this nation is thanks to his great vision.”
The great man is responsible for the budget surplus that Rudd is now spending. What exactly did the Liberals do to contribute to it, apart from govern during it’s time?
The mining boom. Howard’s best friend.
There’s no evidence that it will get “really, really bad”. As was noted on the 7.30 report tonight, relying on analyst predictions in the last 12 months is about as useful as waiting for pigs to fly.
“There’s no evidence that it will get “really, really bad”.”
All economists reckon things will get far worse before they get better.
LOL! Good point. In fact, the reason he didn’t challenge to become P.M. is because he was told there wasn’t a Politburo for him to head.
You subscribe to nonsense. Allowing thousands to lose their jobs without the government doing anything is nonsense social, political and economic policy.
No 386
Oh please bob1234. Keating has nothing to do with the surplus. The only reason why Rudd had any money to spend was thanks to Howard & Costello who thankfully and relentless retired government debt and kept the budget in balance consistently over 12 years.
gp,
yr c annelling r0ss gittens.
http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2009/business/ross-gittins-rba-rate-cut-february/index.html
Yes there is evidence! An economy that isn’t growing is bad. A 50% increase in unemployment in 2 years is bad, business confidence at its lowest level for 14 years is bad.
But of course you’ve already explained that you just don’t believe in empirical evidence, which is akin to saying you don’t believe in anything.
Too much cough syrup?
No 389
The Government can’t keep people in jobs unless it decides to nationalise every industry. The jobs will be lost anyway if there isn’t enough work for people to do. It’s a hard reality but one that the Government cannot change. It’s a normal cyclical movement.
Wrong. The budget went into deficit in the 2000/1 financial year.
“The only reason why Rudd had any money to spend was thanks to Howard & Costello who thankfully and relentless retired government debt and kept the budget in balance consistently over 12 years.”
So why did the budget surplus correlate with the mining boom? Coincidence? The budget was not in balance for 12 years. Not to mention the fact that the Liberal government let health education and infrastructure go from an OECD comparatively high to comparatively low standard. But that’s typical Thatcherist economics isn’t it.
s 0ws 0n,
playing scrabble wit 0nly 85 tiles.
Rubbish.
So the government spends money to increase demand so there is more work for people to do. You’re getting VERY close to understanding this.
Also, the economy was growing for 5 years prior to Howard coming to power, after the late 1980/early 1990s recession, thanks to all the reforms and investment of the Hawke/Keating era.
Yep, Labor is responsible for the surplus that Labor is now spending.
Not to mention how well Hawke/Keating recovered the economy post-Fraser/Howard and pre-late 1980/early 1990’s recession.
d0n’t 0rget asset sales.
Yes, but there’s little hard evidence that handouts are going to increase demand. Whether it is a tax cut or a welfare cheque, when you have doomsayers in the Australian Government proclaiming the sky will fall in and that they will move heaven and earth to avoid it, who’s going to have the confidence to do anything. As Ross Gittens said (thanks for the link GG), we’re just making things worse by talking about a recession that hasn’t even occurred.
I find it curious that Conservatives always end any argument by referring to Keatings “black hole” or Whitlam’s dismissal.
The fact that the “black hole” was filled almost entirely by asset sales and Whitlam did more in 3 years than Howard di in 11 seems to be irrelevant.
But I guess its better than pining for Menzies.
No 399
The Keating reforms were detailed in the Campbell report commissioned by Howard. Keating was forced by the economic circumstances to implement the reforms that Howard was prevented by Fraser from doing.
Well Kevin’s gone berserk today, hasn’t he?
As far as I’m concerned there are only two possibilities:
Either
(a) We are in a lot more trouble than anyone has been letting on, or
(b) Rudd has become clinically insane.
Presumably it’s (a).
At least Howard and Fraser didnt resort to getting money off dodgy Pakistani businessmen lol ahh rua the revisionist history by lefties including bob is hilarious…
I’m sure the conservative scientists can clone a new Menzies from his DNA
No 403
Thank the heavens that Whitlam was dismissed.
Why not? Do you think EVERYONE is going to just tuck the cash under their beds? At least SOME will spend it, or pay off debt, which will free up more of their pay that they can spend or save.
And remember half of the money will be spent on building things, which helps out lots of different sectors.
So contact Turnbull and Bishop and tell them to STFU. They have been going on about recession for over 6 months.
Aha! I always knew Liberal claims of Costello’s influence on the economy were overhyped.
The Coalition is a superior economic manager – kaput
The Coalition is best to keep the interest rate at record low – kaput
The Coalition is better at national security – kaput
What have got they left? Nothing, they better start searching for Ming’s DNA.
No 409
ShowsOn, Turnbull and Bishop aren’t the only ones talking about a recession. Don’t be so ridiculous. Have the government bench’s claims fallen on deaf ears have they? Such rancorous partisanship.
No 410
If our claims were overhyped, then Rudd’s claims that he can fix the economy are equally as overhyped and nonsensical.
No 411
Finns, the lowest interest rates were during the Menzies era or have you forgotten?
GP had Whitlam not been dismissed he’d have gone down in history as the worst Labor Party PM in History…but the Left view him as a martyr all because of Kerr…
Whitlam was a terrible PM and the result of what happens when one side governs for 20 years….
0i, y0u l0t. discussi0ns been g00d. let’s n0t g0 Eeral.
Boerwar way back in the thread asked what the go was re the protest at Q time.
1. some elements are seething at the ongoing ‘controls” of the intervention- the fact that communities dont have a real say ( a hangover from howard?) is causing deep resentmnet
2. ongoing rascism and the “stereotyping” of aboriginals by the MSM and other elements
3. Fortunately rudd is ameliorating the worster aspects, but unfortunately the unchaining of the policy is taking time
What they will not tell you is that their man, Howard, left a “black hole” of his own.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/a-devil-of-a-time-if-you-look-closely/2007/06/08/1181089330756.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
That’s why i said you better start searching for his DNA
“The Keating reforms were detailed in the Campbell report commissioned by Howard. Keating was forced by the economic circumstances to implement the reforms that Howard was prevented by Fraser from doing.”
Nobody is forced to do anything. Keating reformed the Australian economy. Nobody else. I know this will always be a thorn in conservatives’ sides, it’s so nice to see
“revisionist history”
Ah yes, the Howard revisionist history, that Labor ruined the economy rather than setting up the conditions in Australia for such a large budget surplus during the mining boom.
But see, Rudd doesn’t claim that. The Liberals, on the other hand, do constantly claim Costello had enormous influence on the economy (while knowing in fact it to be untrue).
so tell me Glen how much money did Whitlam waste on Khemlani?
Zero by my reckoning.
Rex Conner was an old man, tired from too long in opposition and went rogue. BUt he didn’t cost the Asutrlian tax payers a cent in any loans to dodgy Pakistanis.
b0b,
g00d p0int.
bob1234 if you’ll be aware Keating left Howard a 10b budget deficit and never told anybody about it until Costello became aware…let’s not forget how he bungled the economy and in spending his way out of a recession we had to have had no plan on how to repay the 96b+ that he owed…
Just watched 7:30 Report interview.
Saw no humiliation, or anything like it really.
It was a rather standard interview.
What are you talking about? For the 2nd half of last year, the opposition would accuse the government of sending the country in recession nearly every question time, and the government would tell the opposition to stop talking down the economy.
I think your claim that doing NOTHING is better is WAYYYYYYYY overhyped.
that statement will be out of date in about 2 months… and it’s hardly a good comparison. you might as well say people owned more black and white TV when Menzies was in power
In percent of GDP, that’s less than what Howard left Keating.
m0re s0ldiers died in a p0intless war.
yeah gotta agree – though I thought Rudd was good when Kerry asked him why he did a national address.
Spending money is how we got out of the recession. We would’ve got out even faster if the Reserve bank dropped interest rates.
No 420
Nobody is forced to do anything. Right. You better tell Rudd:
Glen, the economy was growing for 5 years prior to the Liberals being elected. We were coming out of a recession. It is agreed debt is better than surplus during such times. The debt would have been paid off. I would have much preferred him to stay there than for Howard to come in and slash education/health/infrastructure which took it from comparatively high in OECD rankings to comparatively low in OECD rankings under the Howard government.
GP, so which is it then? Are people forced to do things or not?
432 glad to see GP that you agree we need to go into deficit.
Yes, but he did balance that out, in a fashion, by government spending on propaganda, which he took to among the highest per-capita in the world.
Priorities. Liberal-style.
The Coalition is a superior economic manager – kaput
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/australia-will-weather-storm-says-oecd-20090203-7wqu.html
OECD, IMF, Heather Ridout, all the banking economists… wow, the facts are really stacking up against the Liberal Party.
Another 13 years in the wilderness? You betcha. Poor GP and Glen… that’s a long time to defend the indefensible.
Every time Rudd faces up to the truth of the situation and explains it to the Australian people they respond positively (cf. the subject this thread 61-39 in favour of Labour). He is not hiding the truth, and he is not hyping it. to mu mind he has got the balance right.
Every time Turnbull and his Shadow “Treasurer” (no, there’s a laugh!), Julie Bishop, say that we are being run by economic incompetents, they are talking down the economy. They are basically saying, “Aussies, you have no hope of economic recovery with these idiots running the economy.”
Worse than that, they are saying that until they are re-elected, we will spiral down further.
Even worse than that, they are saying to the australian people, “You got it wrong. You elected the wrong people.”.
Clearly, this is not going down well out there (out here) in Voter Land.
Until the Opposition declines the opportunity to take cheap shots at Rudd’s earnest (and so far successful) efforts – after all we have not entered recession yet, despite The Australian’s, and most of the rest of the economic gurus’ best efforts to make out that we have – they will continue to shed voters like a magpie sheds it feathers in moulting season.
The Libs just do not get it. The australian public wants to hear good news. They want to be told that every cloud has a silver lining. There is no despair out there. thee is grim determination to ignore the worst that the gurus can throw at them. And there’s a lot of that. Listening to almost any news program lately has been like listening to a Black Mass. Doom, gloom and misery. They say it sells. But not in the polls it doesn’t.
Until the Opposition stops trying to convince the public that they made the wrong decision, they will dive ever deeper into the abyss, poll-wize. It’s just not the message people want to hear.
And it’s not true either. That much is obvious. things aren’t as bad as some would like to make out…. which is Rudd’s message: “It’s not great, but we’re not doomed either.”
As I said: he’s got the balance about right.
And the polls back me up.
Policy failure of Obama todate:
1/ protectionism Bill passed….EVERY other world Govt (corretly) condemns it
2/ renditions at Obama’s own decision ar STILL remaining…you guys critisised Bush’s renditions policy , how about now Obama’s renditions policy Why not chop it 100% on th day he was inaugaurated Obama new exec order allows them to continu & renditions ar only “to be reviewd” Anyone wish to condemn that non decsion’
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24996281-2703,00.html
3/ Bailout 800 billion for broke Banks….same failed owners still to run them with tax payers ‘donation’ , not a loan , & not taking ownership Groves of ABC wuld luv that
4/ aided future M/E non solution…after th democraticaly electd Hamas Govt of Gaza was bombed for 3 weeks , with 1300 Palestiniens dead including 375 children VS 13 Israel’s dead , and therefore ALL Palestiniens fury at Israel’s non proportionate actions & there 375 children dead & with UN buildings bombed. by Israel as well ….Obama’s first call is to th Palestinen’s ‘perceived’ soft on Israel guy Abbas…
and then to Israel..almost if Gazza never happened…Bush no 3 policy to Palestiniens
5/ undermined alleged new US role of inclusiveness for FA etc ..critical to get things going ..by wrongly transfering blame to other Countrys after only 2 weeks…eg US dollar is propped up by Chinese investments in US securities , so questioning values of th yuan and euro is quite hypocriticl…a red herring , US financial mess ar US problems to fix…read Obama’s to fix , no blame game already please
6/ failed Kyoto support for ratification commitment to CC at inauguration historic moment ….with Democrats control of HOR & Senate , this leadershop was needed
to make pre Coppenhaggen negotiations hitting reel 20% target objectiv
What he’s been wrongly been critised for A/ cabinet appointments in some Press , think most ar well chosen (just querys on Health , Treasury (+ Staff Chief’s history)…pity Richardson had questonable history as sure he wuld ahv been appointd) B/ non partisienship , well how many Libs ar in Rudd’s cabinet is answer
On th above , Obama or any POTUS should have done much better & Obama has not & done quite poorly actually …giv him way leeway ? th World cann’t wait for ‘training’ on job , seeing some decsions that ar NOT made ar obvious should hav been made per th above , perhaps he will improve
BB, they cannot say anything positive because they feel very negative and vengeful at being tossed out of office. They feel terribly wronged and their disgruntlement shows. It’s sour grapes and born-to-rule writ large.
Well, it’s been interesting to read through today’s posts. Talk about getting bogged down in detail, whether or not action is needed, or the relevance or otherwise of previous administrations and the contexts in which they operated, to the current administration. Pollbludgers do it in spades.
Something I thought came through from both Rudd’s national address, and the interview with Kerry O’Brien, was that no one knows what we’re in for; we’ve got some indicators, but in this unprecedented global economic situation, no one can be sure. I’m bloody glad political commentators have lessened they’re calls for certainty and guarantees.
Amigo Ronnie, where have u been? You should add this one:
http://business.smh.com.au/business/court-blocks-2m-storm-dividend-20090203-7we0.html
For not stopping the bonus payment of $18B to the Wall Street Vultures. The same indecency as above. They obviously have no shame or conscience.
Another sign of Labor’s economic competence …
http://news.smh.com.au/national/australia-tops-prosperity-index-20081014-50qn.html
Absolutely agree, Bushfire Bill. I thought Rudd did a fine job, and am sincerely sick of the ghouls who purport to be journalists.
Ron, I’d prefer it if you didn’t just show up here and start talking about American politics apropos of nothing. If that’s the direction the discussion naturally heads in then so be it, but please don’t go wilfully off-topic.
crisis, w at crisis.
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24997424-5017313,00.html
Cossie is on lateline to bucket Rudd. It’s going to be fun.
Lateline leads off with Malcolm, predictably. Oh for goodness’ sake, is the MSM totally screwed?
William
it was discussed today , in length
As to starting a discussion subject , well if no one starts a subject then it can never get startd….other posters d oit all th time , and i don’t complain
Costello and Turnbull on Lateline, with Turnbull heading? Reckon the Liberals should have another go at the ABC about “bias”.
wall street merchant bankers put us into this bloody mess where in, and here in Australia the opposition is headed by a pale shadow of one to wit ‘truffles’ , WHAT I want to know what the hell is 39% wanting to put one of them in charge to fix this bloody mess! traitors the lot of them!!!
Amigo, i know exactly what you mean. i think a lot of scientists have been struggling about this from Kepler to Newton to Spinoza to Einstein to Hoyle to Hawkins. am taking about the “Big Bang”, if no one started the Big Bang then the Universe can never started. Bilbo really should have more sense than that.
Ron, what was “discussed today, in length”? Point 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6? The comments on this thread discussing Obama (passing references aside) came 300 or 400 comments ago, and your comment fails to engage with any of them. It is a rambling, off-topic screed that has nothing to do with anything. More to the point, I am getting sick of having to have a discussion with you every time I ask you to do anything. You’re starting to remind me of Kirribilli Removals. In future, any comment you make in response to something I ask of you will be deleted without warning.
lol, Rudd hands out $950 to taxpayers earning less than $80k, and William threatens to delete Ron’s replies to William that question his requests. What a day.
Costello on lateline, he is like a cheshire cat. How would he do things differently? Has not explained this.. and Tony Jones is letting him off the hook.
Costello and his mate Keating got us in this mess and Peter who cares about deficits…
Deficits mean little because government debt is the cheapest form of debt and Peter please explain how we got our infrastructure powerlines, trainlines at the start of the century debt… Why does it matter, it does not.. This guy is an economic lassez faire dill.
It is time he and Keating mixed with common people and saw what it is like instead of mixing it with the big wigs…
And Keating says neo liberalism is okay, is he for real ?
Time to work with the real strugglers Paul, meantime he is living on his Parliamentary Super and Yearly Wage doing very nicely. What a joke.
So it’s official, Keating is more right-wing than Rudd?
I realise The Finns is probably being facetious, but what I said was that Ron should not “start talking about American politics apropos of nothing”. This statement bears no relation at all to the meaning Ron imposed upon it in #449.
i told you the Libs should put Cossie back in NOW!!! and he will in the Lodge by Xmas. yes, we need him, we want him and we love him. Boy, he is an unhappy little vegemite.
Make a comment about something of contemporary relevance instead of the past, Obama stuff is American politics this topic is about Australian Politics please write about this.
Didn’t they already do that for Hitler. Ming (the only militia member to have resigned his commission at the outbreak of WW1) much admired Hitler so he would have some one to talk to.
TF, the public hates Costello. The sooner you realise that, the better.
Costello was brilliant on Lateline…god i miss him on our front bench!
Costello thinks he is the greatest Treasurer ever because he did not get us into debt and recession. This guy is so deluded, and he and his mates are thinking of winning the next election, put simply they way they acting they will get defeated big time.
Like Ted the toff they are not coming up with alternatives.
Socrates #10 , Finns #12 , Diogenes #18 and Socrates #21
I’ve replied to your points….protectionism (my point 1/) , Bank bailouts (my point 3/) , US/th Yuan currency (my point 5/ ) , non partisanship (my point B/) , and renditions per diog last nite (my point 2/)…await your coments
Of your 5 points , I added 2 further policy failures ..points 4/ Gaza , and point 6 Kyoto
I was working when you discused these
It will be fascinating to see how the next poll looks.
Will the people like the Rudd stimulus?
William, Moi? Never, not when it came down to Big Bang and the meaning of Our Existence.
A bit of good old fashioned Aussie ingenuity coming to the fore here. Could come in handy at a future date for Rudd to do some more “pump priming”. Would also fit in well with proposals from GP & Co.
Cheap airconditioning in summer, heating in winter and the added bonus of free hot water too.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/03/2481211.htm?section=justin
Chris Richardson of Access Economics – we should be throwing the kitchen sink at this, because it’s the right thing to do.
Who was it, Glen or GP that slammed Rudd for throwing the kitchen sink at this?? Oh how fun this is
461, bob1234, i am being facetious.
‘Costello was brilliant on Lateline’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKn6h2×5IcY
I hope he is liberal leader next election, it will be a landslide for Labor. That smile and that smirk and his arrogance was just incredible. He is disliked by all except Glen.
Apologies. I’m used to seeing it from Glen and GP. Only rusted Libs think that the public would actually vote Costello in. They love Costello like Laborites love Keating. They each argue their side’s point so well (well, Keating anyway), but are both ignored by the public because they are hated by them.
That was the GREATEST Peter Costello interview I have ever seen on Lateline in his political career. He spoke very statesman like and with straight-forward about all the past budget surpluses under his time as Australia’s greatest Treasurer, he was speaking like he was already the opposition leader. Please come to the leadership Peter! We need you big time!
Yep the same Chris Richardson who said just three months ago that Australia will not have a recession and it was not necessary to spend extra money. Another one of those economic liberalism economists who does not have a clue.
Costello was part of the problem, there he was in 2007 telling the banks to give out more sub-prime loans, this dope thinks we shouldn’t go into deficit when we are facing the biggest crisis since the great depression, he’d rather Australia go into a deep recession with the books balanced, typical cold clinical heartless conservative.
Ron, that’s a partly successful justification. The problem is, how was anyone reading your comment supposed to know that it was made in response to “Socrates #10 , Finns #12 , Diogenes #18 and Socrates #21″, given that it came in at #439? I don’t think even the people you were responding to would have realised you were responding to them, given the extent to which everybody had moved on by then.
Costello’s popularitity has risen by 100% in five minutes at this rate he will prime minister in the year 2050.
My God, Costello was a breath of fresh air. Damn the Coalition needs him right now.
William,
What is your take on The West meging their online content with Yahoo7 ? Will this mean that the current website will be dumped ?
>>Costello was part of the problem
Then there was persistent encouragement (driven by his fundamentalist Christian ideology) of people producing more offspring when it is clear that our enviroment simply just can’t cope.
Ron, I think we can leave US politics to another thread, though I do agree with some of what you’re saying.
As evidenced by Costello being associated with Hillsong and the election of a Liberal Member who was a member of that church.
Costello is a man who sounds like a leader and would be able to run circles around Rudd especially in Parliament…but maybe we’ll have to wait untill after 2010 but who knows???
Watching Turnbulls woeful performance on 730 and Costello’s brilliance on Lateline is telling…
And the stove, microwave, fridge etc if things look like getting as bad as this bloke reckons it will. Turnbull & Bishops negativness has nothing on this.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/03/2480923.htm
Is he one of yours, GP? If he’s right, then you may have to revise your appraisal of Rudd’s package.
Costello says the deficit will occur because of policy decisions, not because of severely declining tax receipts to the government worth $120b. His credibility is shot.
Yep all left leaning bloggers get on board Costello was brillant. We want him back.
Heather Ridout the Workchoices supporter on Lateline Business. Who let her in the door and into Labor’s inner sanctum who was it?
No 480
Oh dear, give me a break. Over 90% of the land in the United States is uninhabited or protected by the government, yet its population has grown by tens of millions of people in the last several decades.
First I’ve heard of it, Frank. Could well do.
groan, seeing Cossie on telly just reminds me why i cant stand him–smirk and all, the only good thing Howard ever did was keep him out of the Lodge, he’s a smug dolt.
No 484
Keen has been on various ABC programs parroting the same rubbish for months.
Why does an opposition backbencher get a gig on Lateline anyway?
marky marky, That’s very good.
Costello will appear in a one-on-one with an interviewer who is expected to be impartial but he lacks the fortitude to take on a leadership position unless his side can control the debate. I doubt he’d even agree to a debate with Rudd or Gillard on TV let alone try and take them on in parliament. He couldn’t get within a bull’s roar of Rudd or Turnbull in the intellectual stakes and Gillard would maul him in an open debate. Quite frankly Costello is an over rated dud and you know what? I think he knows it.
No 485
bob1234, Costello said that revenues this year will fall by $9 billion – so he is clearly correct when he says that policy decisions are causing the deficit.
JB, yep. The public hate Costello’s persona as much as they did Keating. He can’t win government from opposition. Rudd has the common man’s touch, Costello is electoral suicide.
t e system was built by pjcay. ubricati0n in 0verl0ad.
No 491
Because he was Australia’s longest serving Treasurer so clearly on fiscal matters he has much more credibility than Swan or Rudd.
William
As you said those “Socrates #10 , Finns #12 , Diogenes #18 and Socrates #21?, posts were made today , and they actualy did discuss exactly what I replied to them in my #439 …WHEN I was free to do so
Fact that this has been a quite momentous day of rudd’s massive packge causing so many posts occuring in between , doesn’t change I simply replied to EXactly what was discussed earlier today when i was workin …..and those guys will hav remeberd these issues as they ar intersted in them …and those not interstd culd just hit skip buton…now i’ve re read your #453
Mr Rudd revealed yesterday that the Government’s tax receipts over the nextfour years would be $115 billion lower than was forecast in last year’s budget and $75 billion worse than when Treasury reviewed the numbers only last November.
“The truth is that the global recession in general and the collapse in China’s growth in particular has produced a $115billion fall in Australia’s tax receipts to the Government,” he said.
–
GP, if you want to look to just one year ahead, it just shows how short sighted you and your party really is.
GG, is there a reason why you are using incomprehensible babble rather than coherent English in your posts?
GP he is
GP, Labor was in power for 13 years and did so much more reform to the economy than the Liberals did in 11 years, so clearly Labor has much better credibility on the economy.
Dr Keen said this in October and is probably correct. Keating and Costello have no idea.
Debt- Foreign debt is out of control. All caused by financial deregulation, negative gearing and pure greed and this casual work fetish.
We should go back to government owned businesses, and higher taxes on the rich.
A woman on Lateline- Ms Osborne sorry to say a woman, calling for payroll taxes what next? How many businesses will pocket the money Ms Osborne instead of creating jobs? Heaps.
Dr Keen says property prices will plunge bigtime and all those people negatively geared will see some massive probs.
Population of the globe has increased exponentially is a very short period of time.
It’s called science. ie discovery of germs, immunisation, nutrition etc etc etc.
world populaion
1800: 800 million
1900: 1.5 billion
2000: 6 Billion
2050 (projected): nearing 10 billion
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/worldpopinfo.html
US is not an island. Even if they have the data
i just had to turn him off, i’m no masochist, i’ve decided i can tolerate Malcolm as long as the smirk stays firmly in the backbench.
Yes I’m drunk and off topic
His posts make more sense than Ron’s.
Costello a good economic manager? He can’t even add up. He criticises Rudd regarding his “great neo-liberal experiment of the past 30 years has failed” comment, saying that includes Keating, Hawke, and Whitlam… err… 30 years ago it was 1979. Whitlam was elected twice, in a government lasting 1972-1975.
Nice one tip! Again, your credibility has been shot!
whoops!
costello is too gutless to face Rudd and Swan that’s why he is cowering on the backbenches because he knows if he took a position in the shadow ministry he would have to face them in parliment .
I’m I the only one who thinks the Member for Bass is hawt?
All the Labor people on this blog are suddenly annoyed after seeing Costello on Lateline. I’m lovin it!
Both parties have no credibility on the economy- longevity determines credibiltiy? No crediblity is determined by what you do. Costello did nothing he just allowed people to borrow money and let the property market explode further. Keating helped put the air in the balloon whilst Costello has let it explode.
Keating believed markets would help create wealth and Costello believed in the same thing. On both accounts they failed.
Still the question is will the stimulus package save us? Simply answer no and it is going to get much much much worse. Why debt it is everywhere.
Bree, we’re not annoyed, we’re replying the the false “he’s our saviour” comments from people like GP and Glen.
I noticed he was going to be on so I switched to The Allan Border medal.
510 – I’m not. Please more of him. He is Labor’s greatest asset and he knows it.
Oh please. Markets have lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in the last 50 years alone. Indeed the grand communist experiments of the 20th century demonstrated the utter failure of central planning to create wealth – instead, it showed an ability to systematically murder tens of millions of people.
Markets don’t create wealth, when working properly they determine the value of things.
I still see absolutely nothing wrong with having a well regulated market economy. The biggest difference between the political parties is what to spend money on during boom times. The Liberals ALWAYS like to spend projected surpluses on tax cuts, whereas Labor is more likely to spend some of it on social infrastructure like schools and hospitals.
That’s basically your choice, do you think tax cuts are ALWAYS the solution to every social and economic problem, or do you think that sometimes the government needs to spend money on some things that the market alone can’t provide?
No 512
Bob1234, he’s certainly made much more of an impact than Turnbull or Bishop. He oozes credibility on this subject, whereas the Opposition leader could barely lay a finger on the government today.
marky marky,
I heard Keen last night on 702 (he is a semi-regular on Andrew Daddo’s show) and boy was he as depressing as ever. Not recommended for the suicidal.
He thinks it will be decades before we’re out of this, and that the only real solution is to forgive debt (whether explicitly by legislation, or implicitly by causing so much inflation that fixed-value debt becomes worth much less). Wouldn’t all that be great news for the savers of Australia!
I suspect the logic then would be that today’s announcement was bad as it’s leading to more debt.
GP, he has the gift of the gab, doesn’t mean he has credibility. He didn’t provide a single alternative solution to the problem, just criticised, opposition for opposition’s sake. He’s perfect to be opposition leader.
He’s just like Keating, the non-engaged swinging voters hate him.
You won’t get any disagreement from me about this. But the problem is, the world economy is in a real mess NOW, and so we need to think clearly and carefully about what caused this, so we can stop it again.
That is a rational and empirical approach. If we ignore the problems of the market, then this will happen again, and thousands of other people will suffer by loss of their jobs, wealth and living standards.
tans vera.
i am a ew letters s 0rt 0 an alpabet
Andrew Daddo has a show!?
Costello’s not our saviour.
The Liberal Party can’t win the next election – full stop.
Christ the Daddos are still on air?!
No 518
I agree – Keen is worse than the doomsayers running Australia now.
SO,
Every weeknight on 702, 7pm – 10pm. He is infuriatingly lenient during the quiz.
William, I have to respectfully ask you start deleting SMS-speak. GG your posting style is not acceptable.
“Markets have lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in the last 50 years alone.”
That doesn’t mean we need Thatcherist/Howardite economics for this to occur. A market economy was enhanced by Whitlam with his slashing of trade tariffs, and Hawke/Keating underwent a stack of reforms. Social democrats believe in a mixed economy – markets, and government intervention when it’s for the good of the economy.
As I said previously,
IT IS LIKLEY THE NEXT LNP PM IS NOT IN PARLIAMENT YET
Then again Phillip Ruddock my get lucky on his 100th birthday.
When is that? Next month?
Yeah, take that G.G. You’ve been sanctioned!
No 519
Bob1234, he said that the spending packages were of low quality and that they do not reflect long term vision. He is correct. If a recession is impending, it’s a waste of time subsidising retail sales temporarily.
GG has been pwned
roflcopter
zm,
I wouldn’t be as smug as that if I were you.
2013 is a long way off.
GP @ 527
For once I agree with you.
Still cant believe Ruddock, father of the house, is going for re-election in Berowra at the next election. For what purpose?!
GP, GG is just being amusing. I would have preferred it if he had tired of the joke by now, but I’m sure he won’t carry on with it tomorrow.
The free marketers are at it again. Lifted us out of wealth last 50 years, yes they have but over the last 30 they have become extreme and created massive economic disparities in the free world between the rich and the poor. Don’t dislike free markets just hate how extreme they have become and the lack of regulation by Government and the lack of government ownership.
Labor spends money on infrastructure yes, but the differences between it and the libs on economic spending are very small. And with all those tax cuts the amount of spending on infrastructure is very little. Like the libs labor spends nothing on Public transport and public housing and instead on private housing assistance schemes and roads.
Sorry Shows on but Labor has few of its traditional believes left.
“Bob1234, he said that the spending packages were of low quality and that they do not reflect long term vision. He is correct. If a recession is impending, it’s a waste of time subsidising retail sales temporarily.”
You’re just like Costello, a spitting image. Criticise, oppose for opposition’s sake, without providing an alternative strategy.
No 528
Howard wasn’t a free market extremist. He is more akin to a statist than a libertarian and anything else said to the contrary is breathtakingly dishonest when you consider the track record.
bob,
Which country would we take as the current successful model for this “social democrat” style you refer to?
William, No – he is ‘trying’ to be amusing.
Marky, $14.7 billion for schools, $6.6 billion for 20,000 new homes, $3.9 billion to insulate 2.7 million homes, $890 million for road repairs and infrastructure, $2.7 billion in small business tax breaks, and $12.7 billion for cash bonuses.
I never ever want to hear anyone say again that there is no difference between Labor and Liberal.
oh ceiling cat.
I mentioned Phillip Ruddock getting lucky.
EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
gp,
tell me s0mting i d0n’t n0.
“Howard wasn’t a free market extremist.”
In comparison to previous Australian governments he was more of a free-marketeer by a long shot.
No 537
Oh please marky marky. Comparisons between the so-called gap between the rich and poor are most often filled with fallacies. Please do me a favour and read Thomas Sowell.
“Please do me a favour and read Thomas Sowell.”
I’m more into non-fiction writers these days
No 544
You’ve been afflicted with an insalubrious bout of gross imbecility.
No 547
Sowell doesn’t write fiction.
“Still cant believe Ruddock, father of the house, is going for re-election in Berowra at the next election. For what purpose?!”
A better question would be “why does Nathan Rees bother turning up for work?”.
Anyone who can answer that really is a genius.
bob,
In all seriousness Ruddock is probably keeping a Right faction person out.
Not a bad thing in my book.
dyno, be careful before William warns you for bringing up state politics out of nowhere
It’s ok, William did mention Troy Buswell’s sideburns
bob, cruel but fair.
Time for bed, and dreams of Rudd’s stimulus.
Maybe you should ask yourself GP about how many people in the world live in poverty?
i think the figure is something like eighty percent of the worlds’ total population.
Yep this figure has certainly changed in recent years.
Also ask yourself about the 1% of people who own something like 80 percent of Australia;s wealth. This figure has not shifted much over the last twenty years.
Sure, times change and they changed with it. But most of the market interventions we take for granted are Labor inventions, Medicare, superannuation, affordable tertiary education.
Oh I agree, he was the highest spending and taxing P.M. ever. He completely put Whitlam to shame in those departments.
No 545
Oh come on bob. You can’t have it both ways. On the one hand Labor criticise Howard for spending like a drunken sailor, then on the other they accuse him of being a neo-liberal free market fundamentalist. Which is it – because small government, free marketeers certainly wouldn’t fund
-universal healthcare
-$100 billion per annum welfare
-central bank
-aboriginal intervention
-workchoices (workchoices imposed more regulation than it removed)
-gun ban
I could go on, but as many, many people have said: Rudd’s essay is baseless rubbish.
“It’s ok, William did mention Troy Buswell’s sideburns”
Yeah looks like an ‘actor’ in Debbie Does Dallas.
“Sure, times change and they changed with it. But most of the market interventions we take for granted are Labor inventions, Medicare, superannuation, affordable tertiary education.”
Indeed.
Sure, but if you take China as an example, more people lived in extreme poverty there when it had a purely planned economy rather than when it embraced market economics.
No 555
What is the definition of poverty? Most analyses devise their definition rather arbitrarily and often when you consider it, the definition is absurd.
Considering his previous behaviour while in opposition that sounds rather ironic
GP, Howard spent like a drunken sailor on useless rubbish. Where was the investment in health/education/infrastructure during the resource boom years? Nowhere. Handouts are good for times like now, not then.
He is neo-liberal free market in the sense of how far he wanted to take the GST and IR reforms. If they really had their way, they’d have done an IR Nicholls on Australia and we’d be far far worse off for it. Howard didn’t enact the prior healthcare or welfare, and to remove it would have been electoral suicide. He was as much of a free-marketeer as the electorate allowed him to be without voting him out on a two-party vote of 40%.
No 560
Exactly. Property rights and free movement of capital are the only way you move people out of poverty. Inevitably, there will be winners and losers, but the net benefit is always superior.
Frank,
I suggest it is deliberate.
I forsee the return of the viking helmet
No 563
Your argument is nonsense and inconsistent. You can’t be partly free-market fundamentalist, or a quarter free market fundamentalist. You either are or you are not.
Howard was not. All the rest is blather.
GP not everything is black and white in this world.
GG has emailed me to protest that he is genuinely having problems with his keyboard. Why he couldn’t just say so on the thread is something of a mystery to me.
Again, I realise this is facetious, but even so I could do without it. Of course state politics is on topic – read the post.
GP @ 557
“…many, many people have said: Rudd’s essay is baseless rubbish.”
Name just a few and which political party or organisation they represent.
Kevin Rudd: “The Hawke and Keating governments delivered a massive program of economic reform, and they didn’t shy away from taking on their own political base when they knew it was in the national interest. Think tariffs. Think cuts to the marginal tax rate. Think enterprise bargaining. Think how unpopular all of those were with the trade union movement of Australia. Mr Howard, on the other hand, never took on his own political base in the prosecution of any significant economic reform. His reform agenda never moved out of the ideological straitjacket of the 1970s and 1980s. Think industrial relations. Think consumption tax. And think also of the explosion in untargeted welfare… When the economic circumstances change, and the demands of a competitive economy change, Mr Howard never adjusted and never took the lead when it came to new ideas. Look at climate change. Look at infrastructure policy. Look at education policy. Look at early childhood education. There’s a mountain of economic evidence about the importance of those policy domains to Australia’s future.”
566
i wish i lived in your black and white, good and bad, simplistic world.
You CAN take on a mixture of ideologies, economic positions and general philosophies.
It’s called called being human.
Evidence please Shows on? – China.
Also Tertiary Education, okay made it more accessible, but made us pay for it. A market solution. Allowed the coalition make it inaccessible. Whitlam had the correct solution free education.
Superannuation, yep how many people are now without money due to scruplus financial managers and whose supers have gone backwards recently and are now on the pension. Super has made it the economic crisis worse because it put more money into the economy for people to go into debt and shifty financial schemes. Look at storm financial for one case in point.
Medicare was one of their rare successes, i agree.
No 570
Howard didn’t have to take on his party because a liberalised economy is part of his party’s platform. The Labor party in the 1980s, in many cases, was implementing the very liberal reforms that Rudd labels as extreme and since discredited. In other words, his essay is hypocritical and contradictory.
No 572
Surely you don’t need evidence of China’s astonishing growth?
GP, where does Rudd criticise Hawke/Keating? Where did they not implement government intervention when it was necessary?
Howard did have to take on his party, “His reform agenda never moved out of the ideological straitjacket of the 1970s and 1980s. Think industrial relations. Think consumption tax. And think also of the explosion in untargeted welfare… When the economic circumstances change, and the demands of a competitive economy change, Mr Howard never adjusted and never took the lead when it came to new ideas. Look at climate change. Look at infrastructure policy. Look at education policy. Look at early childhood education.”
GP @ 557
“…many, many people have said: Rudd’s essay is baseless rubbish.”
Name just a few and which political party or organisation they represent.
Kevin Rudd writes a 8,000 word essay detailing his beliefs and agenda. You may not agree with it. I Don’t agree with it all. It’s nice to know he has the intellectual capacity to outline his ideas and beliefs though.
In contrast:
Turnbull writes three words. Jobs, Jobs , Jobs.
Joolie scrawls some incoherrent babble in crayon.
geeze i hope they really are sideburns and not a pair of happless quokas stuck there for later enjoyment.
“Joolie scrawls some incoherrent babble in crayon.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Best comment of the night.
Of course not, evidence that poverty has been reduced.
Sorry but this is late and it is time i went to bed. Cheers continue Wednesday.
I am not running away just that i have to work.
Oh dear, don’t be moronic. Most people on this planet live on less than US$2 a day. Could you get by on that much?
I have been to China. Yup astonishing. A workers state that pays workers 1 cent an hour. Breathtaking….
Howards wet dream. Big overnment, All powerful emloyers. Slave labour.
Puzzles me why he didn’t like asians.
vera, pearler.
dyno
Posted Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 11:59 pm | Permalink
“Still cant believe Ruddock, father of the house, is going for re-election in Berowra at the next election. For what purpose?!”
A better question would be “why does Nathan Rees bother turning up for work?”.
Anyone who can answer that really is a genius.”
Well dyno , Inner Westie told me someting new other nite , a Johnson guy started engliash and I’m adding finishing touches so I cann’t make your genius category but tink Rees is either ego being a premier title and/or foolish enough he’s capable , and ruddock is ego for legacy as longest servin and/or factionaly if he left at 2010 ececton then his ‘consevativ right’ enemys hav numbers to get preselcton
vera:
oh snap!!
Labor has never advocated socialism. It has always been a part that accepts a market economy in most respects.
No 572
Free education is sound when it comes to primary and secondary education given that a citizen must have a basic standard of knowledge to participate ably in a democracy.
At a tertiary level it is unaffordable, as Hawke discovered. If the “free” degrees were targeted at areas of high public need like teachers, nurses and doctors, then that would be reasonable. Also, I don’t buy the mantra that Howard made tertiary education “inaccessible” when university enrolments grew very high throughout his period of power. Plus, 75% of the degree is paid by the government anyway; the other 25% is paid via zero-interest loan (subject to inflation) paid back over many years. If you never earn above 38,000, you never have to pay it back.
and GG , that lingo ‘training’ is bearing fruit
GP @ 557
I’ll help you.
1. Peter ‘the Feint-Hearted’ on Lateline last night – Liberal Part of Australia
2. Malcolm ‘in the middle’ Turnbull in the Fed Parliament of Australia yesterday – Liberal Part of Australia.
Have I missed anyone?
No 586
But Rudd was saying that Keating was challenging his own base – most of the key reforms he introduced were supported by the Liberal party because they were long held Liberal principles. Thus, why would Howard need to challenge his own base on economic issues when his own base recognises the value of liberalised markets?
No 589
See Andrew Bartlett’s blog for some references Steve.
The media saw straight through Rudd’s essay. You can’t blame the GFC on the Liberal Party – especially when the GFC’s limited impact here has much to do with Costello’s regulatory reforms in 1997.
gpin0ci0,
pj intrduced t e c anges t e libs were t00 scared t0 intr0duce.
Actually GP
In the Fraser years, Howard strongly advocated Thatcherism but Fraser and co kept him at bay. Howard was not the majority base of the party for quite a while.
And some policies were opposed by the opposition like Medicare, and superannuation,m and the Native Title Act 1993, which were all enormous beneficial reforms for both the economy and for social justice.
Hang on, during 2007 he was Costello was saying he knew something like this was going to happen. Why didn’t he do anything about it when he was telling everyone that he could see it was going to happen? Just another example of Costello being all talk I guess.
Good point, Howard and Fraser were too scared to take on their RURAL base that opposed a lot of the important reforms.
GP, Howard wouldn’t take on his own base on issues like health/education/infrastructure, when we clearly needed investment in it. We went from a high OECD ranking to a low OECD ranking under Howard.
GP @ 591
Read Rudd’s essay. Seriously, do you think Rudd would blame the Liberal Party of little ol’ Australia for the GFC? He has simply compared the brazen, wreckless, drunken behaviour of American institutions with the behaviour of the Libs when in government. Seems like a reasonable thing to me.
Superannuation is probably the only economic reform in that list. Medicare and Native Title are separate issues, not the economic issues to which Rudd was referring.
Link? I don’t recall this. If he was referring to international circumstances, then he can hardly be blamed if he didn’t do anything given that he has no jurisdiction! The reforms that protected Australia were already in place some ten years prior.
Costello figured out what he forecast 2 years ago this morning.
GENIUS!!
No 597
His comparison is fallacious, wrong and hypocritical. Mr Bartlett said it best:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/bartlett/2009/02/03/sandpit-squabbling-while-economy-crashes/
What? Having a healthy populace isn’t an economic issue? Having Native Title to provide clarity to farmers and mining companies isn’t an economic issue?
You live in a simplistic dreamland.
You can do better than this! Costello tried to convince voters to re-elect the Howard government because there was going to be a “economic tsunami” that we needed Costello to protect us from.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/federalelection2007news/look-out-for-the-tsunami-says-costello/2007/10/25/1192941243214.html
My question is simple. If Costello knew this was going to happen, why didn’t he spend the earlier part of 2007 doing something to protect us from it? This is typical Costello, all talk, no walk.
That’s probably the first and last time GP will agree with a Democrat.
This is the same Andrew Bartlett that lead the Democrats into the wilderness and failed to bring them out again?
OK, that makes 3. Any others? You could count them on the fingers of one hand I suspect.
That makes your comment ““…many, many people have said: Rudd’s essay is baseless rubbish.” somewhat rubbish itself.
No 603
Steve K, argumentum ad hominem is typical of those incapable of addressing the real argument.
GP
Got ya!
No 601
ShowsOn, your argument is nonsense. The Coalition, at the time, was merely stating that the economy would be safer in their hands during this economic tsunami. Funnily enough, everything he said in that article came true – the only thing is that Rudd won the election and slammed the brakes on the economy when it should have been doing the exact opposite.
Generic Person
“At a tertiary level it is unaffordable (for govt) , ,,,,75% of the degree is paid by the government anyway;…”
Tertary education is also often unafordable for poor people also , even if students get 99% marks against less poor parents students geting 97%…plus “certain” expensive private schools hav signif higher % of Uni places vs poor private/public schools…plus signif higher % into medicinee , law type degrees
This was partley social basis of Gough’s reform , since diluted
This 3 way inequity becomes generatonaly reinforsed , and current Rudd education package spending is start , but not end of solutionsby far needed We ar simply missing out on skilling some of our brightest , so i suport means testd free uni training and same focus on corecting % imbalanses of schools getting uni places and in imbalances in % ’s of which degrees fom whic schools
Costello was right on the money on Lateline, when he said that the social democrat economic platform of the Blair/Brown government in the UK, is what led to the recession and current strife in the UK banking system. He referred to a number of strife torn UK banks as an example to prove his point. I was very impressed with his straight-forward answers to Tony Jones.
Craig Emerson:
“Regulate better not more”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25004484-7583,00.html
Yeah. The ALP are dangerous socialists alright.
No 605
Got me for what? You want me to list the entire body of criticism against the article which I’m not going to do. The point is that any sane person with a bit of logic can see that the article is absurd.
Bree,
so Thatcherism and the 1980’s had nothing to do with it then…
Anyway, calling Blair a social democrat is a stretch.
GP @606
But haven’t you spent a part of today advocating a course of “slamming the brakes on the economy?”
Too late for me – off to bed with the opinion pieces in The Age and The Australian to contemplate.
Fortunately voters saw straight through such rubbish.
No 607
What are you going on about? If you get 99 in your HSC (or equivalent in other states), you’d almost certainly have offers from any university you wanted to attend. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a private school or public school; or whether you’re rich or poor. For example, in NSW, the best performing school is a government selective school: James Ruse Agricultural High School.
No 613
We’ll see about that in 2010.
Blair a social democrat? LOLOL
Costello is a very patient man. He will wait until 2013 if he has to, so he can beat Rudd.
Ahh, Costello speaks rubbish for 15 minutes, opposes for oppositions sake without providing an alternative solution, and the rusted Libs are back out in force thinking they’ll be back in power at the next election.
Love that arrogance. It’ll make Rudd Labor’s re-election all that much sweeter.
And I love it that rusted Libs think that anyone has any time for Costello apart from themselves. The average Joe hates Costello.
not hate bob.
ambivalence, distrust, disinterest, boredom maybe.
bob1234, You are sound very worried about Costello.
Just saw Cossie on Lateline over here. It was embarrassing and cringeworthy. This was once a Treasurer?? I think he is somewhat behind the curve on current economics as he is banging on and on and on about the “DEFICIT”. He even says it like its a dirty word!!
His only claim to fame is persistant political cowardice , and an inflated sense of his own place in history as the laziest treasurer (admittedly the victim to Howards bully on occasion) ever.
A definite tool of the Liberal party, but Supa-Cheap generic not exactly Sidchrome.
Now he is criticizing Rudds essay the berk. At least Rudd can write 7000 words while. the Liberals have to get theirs Ghostwritten!!
Bree, no, just amused how the rusted Libs can be so deluded.
“The average Joe hates Costello”
What planet do you live on?
Please, let Cossie be elevated to leader of the opposition as soon as possible!! He is the answer to any problems the ALP may face getting re-elected in 2010, 2013, 2016….., and he may actually hang around that long???????
Gerard Henderson is on the money:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/gerard-henderson/rudd-neoliberal-with-the-facts/2009/02/02/1233423132293.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
imacca, Turnbull is a goose and a head-less chook combined! Costello will be tons better than Turnbull. Costello will wait until 2013 if he has to.
No 622
I will say it again: argumentum ad hominem is typical of those who are incapable of addressing the real argument.
Rudd is living in La La Land if he thinks that his essay will win him the next election.
GP @ 628
SPOT ON!
“What planet do you live on?”
This one. People voted in Kevin Rudd against John Howard, and all the polls showed people preferred John Howard to Peter Costello. People hate his arrogance and his smirk. It’s only rusted Libs that talk up Costello.
You might point to polls that show people prefer Costello over Turnbull/Nelson, but they aren’t exactly PM material. When Costello faces Howard, he loses, and when Howard faces Rudd, he loses. And I seem to recall some election-day exit polling that showed 60% never want Costello to be PM?
Look Bree. You sit in your little bubble of a world and think people want Costello. They don’t. You and the rusteds do. They don’t.
Albrechtsen is on fire:
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/pm_dumps_facade_for_ideological_dream/
Gweneric Person
“plus “certain” expensive private schools hav signif higher % of Uni places vs poor private/public schools…plus signif higher % into medicinee , law type degrees”
That was my point in reverse , th theory a disproportionate % of students from “certain” expensive private schools get Uni places by chanse vs poorer less funded private/public schools and/or geographicaly working areas is nonsense and inequitable
Further a disproportionate % of students from “certain” expensive private schools qualify into medicine law etc also by chance is also nonsense and inequitable
And thats what Gough’s reforms were about
Anyway, as fun and successful as today has been in the political world as well as poll bludger, it’s getting very late, I need my beauty sleep.
I suspect Laborites will have pleasant dreams while the rusted Libs will have nightmares tonight! Maybe a wet Costello dream for good measure, anything to get them through a long long period in opposition.
Good night!
No 633
Ron, a truly gifted student would do well wherever he or she attended school. Your argument is an old-fashioned attack on private schools which has long since been discredited.
The only good highlight about today was Costello on Lateline.
“Albrechtsen is on fire”
What!
They are bringing back burning witches at the stake ?
Well Bree, I agree it was entertaining to watch Cossie embarrass himself but i think the highlights of the day were listening to what the people who are actually doing things had to say. Wonder what his memoirs are selling for at the moment??
They’ve been remaindered at my local Dymocks.
“They are bringing back burning witches at the stake ?”
That was my first thought, but no, she is just banging on again. Right good, left bad, blah blah. Apparently she is now the arbiter of which histories of the great depression of 1930 are valid and which are crap.
Interesting thing is that i remember reading a few articles last year that suggested that in the US then, the problem with the “New Deal” was that its measures weren’t applied soon enough. The economy had already tanked VERY badly before they tried to stimulate it. Confidence was so shattered and the losses so bad that the depression went on for years.
So, to try and learn from history rather than repeat it as JA seems to advocate, the current theory is to go in early and hard to try and mitigate the effects of any recession asap. This limits the real damage as much as possible and maybe most importantly limits the damage to confidence in the economy.
Economics involves people, large mobs and their collective responses. I think its more art and psych than formulaic science. That’s not to diminish its importance, but it seems that the government has a choice of trying what they think will work (as they are doing) or trying what people already know didn’t work last time and hurt a lot of people in the process.
Generic Person
Actualy I’m also thinkin of less well off catholic private schools and numerous non demoninal private schools as well based on actual % proportions i’ve seen I’m sugesting we do hav a 2 tier system , but not private to public…and notwithstanding entranse criteria used often to cherry pick brighter ones/later discourage less successful to look elsewhere before year 12
Its a too hot politcal issue, as schools Commission Grant formula varying basis’s 2003-2009 via howard is to continue 2009-2013
No 641
Why do the proportions matter? At the end of the day, by being gung-ho about proportions, you’re essentially putting a cap on the “allowed performance” of private schools which is a recipe for disaster for students. And it’s about time that anti-private school crusaders recognise that nearly 40% of students attend private/independent schools and that every dollar invested in education is a dollar well spent.
No 640
imacca, you seem unashamedly ignorant of the fact that Rudd has completely reversed his public position on his economic stance in the last 18 months. From being an unashamed Howard economic evangelist to a fervent big-government socialist is remarkable and he has revised history to boot.
Every time I mention this and quote articles, the retorts herewith are persistently focussed on the credibility of the messenger rather than the credibility of the argument itself. Deal with the damn argument and stop ignoring it!
Th proportions matter because EVEN if one excluded public schools entirely , there is a/ still a disproportionate % of students into Uni from cerain well $ resoursed private schools vs poorer private catholic & less resouced non denominationl private schools , and b/ these % imbalanses also apply with sciences & 2nd maths …and into Uni medicine , law So its a private school issue also both in resources , facilaties , backup , outside tutorials , focus & skills (or in combinatons of these) provided to & between even private school studentsstudents
missed out addrssing that post..it was to Generic Person
Dyno @ 550 “Still cant believe Ruddock, father of the house, is going for re-election in Berowra at the next election. For what purpose?!”
He wants to be the Grandfather of the House so that he can advise all the LibKids what to do and how to do it.
Vera @ 578
The Quokkas are pure creative genius. General Burnside will have to move over.
No 644
The proportions don’t matter. Basically, your implicit argument is that entrances should be proportional which would put a cap on performance which is not only unfair for the students involved but total lunacy as an education policy.
There are some related elements that were briefly touched on in parts of this thread but never really either got a run on. (As usual, Costello who is apparently irrelevant, is apparently not quite irrelevant enough for a fulmination or two).
GP @ 451 appears to imply that having either 90% of the US either uninhabited or owned by the US Government shows that there is space for plenty more people.
Zombie Mao @ 503 noted the exponential growth in world population.
There appears to be a bit of doubt about the extent of world poverty. (GP and Show’s On posts on the topic.)
There is also a reference by GP to the markets lifting people out of poverty along with a reference to planned economies.
The elements appear to be to raising some of the basic assumptions that neither Rudd nor Turnbull are willing to identify or address:
Is there is a world and Australian population level that is sustainable?
Given the Crisis and the capacity of Australia to address it, is there a ‘right’ immigration level?
Is there a way of identifying an ‘ideal’ degree to which our economy should be planned and directed by Canberra rather than the market?
If the unrestrained markets were so good, why are 800 million people going to bed hungry each night? (Or can’t the UN really measure hunger?’)
Fredex @ 322
Thank you
Gusface @ 417
Thank you
I still have high hopes that Indigenous Affairs Minister Macklin will get around to getting it fully right. She appears to me to be one of the people who are doing better in the job than might have been expected from their Shadow Ministry performance. The inherited Intervention had all the subtlety of a stampeding herd of elephants and would be difficult to turn around.
I was disappointed that Rudd killed off the debate about changing the date of Australia Day. How insulting can a date get if you are looking for inclusion rather than exclusion? @ 79% support for no change of date, it was poll driven gutlessness. Still, Rudd will have endeared himself with the Flag Thugs.
Being economically illiterate, I would be curious to know what people think about the order of spending in the stimulus package.
Should it have been, say, $100 billion?
OOps self @ 649
Sorry, forgot to mention that Adam made an approving comment about immigration rates being maintained, way back when.
GP @ 626
It is an interesting point. There has been a significant shift, but arguably there has been somewhat of a shift in circumstances to go with the shift. The problem for Government appears to be to synchronise the shifts so that everybody in the choir is singing the same tune at the same time.
The problems for the Opposition economic choir are far worse. Their Leader from one day to another can’t remember what the tune is and he can’t make up his mind what the tune ought to be. Half his mob think the tune ought to be one thing. More of them think it ought to be something else. Some of them agree with the Government, anyway.
To top it off, the Opposition Treasurer, who apparently thinks she is a diva, can’t read music and is tone deaf.
Albrechtsen is irrelevant to all but her loyal band of fellow Howard mourners and to those who obviously have a morbid curiosity in watching how she is suffering. It is sad to see, you should leave her alone. When the sun comes out she will wither some more.
TP @ 654
Morbid, eh?
She is like a blowie on the wood floor of a one teacher school in outback NSW, circa the Summer of 1955. Someone has torn off her wings. She is on her back, buzzing about in mad circles.
But wait, there’s more…no more free trips to Howard’s wars at the taxpayer’s expense!
Not sure why exactly the Coalition would allow a backbencher to give such an interview at such a time…
Meanwhile, back at our war…
(Sorry William, absolutely and completely off topic but not sure where else to put this – if you choose to SNIP I will understand.)
It appears no-one in Peshawar is fretting about Turnbull or Costello. About 80% of the supplies for the Afghanistan War travel overland through Pakistan. The Taliban have just cut the supply route (those with a taste for history will be interested to know that it is the one through the Khyber Pass). A month or so they made world headlines by burning about 300 trucks. Alternative supply arrangements can be created, but it is difficult to believe there will be a settlement in Afghanistan until there is one in Pakistan – and the situation there is getting worse, not better.
The West needs to either to get very serious about this war or to chuck it in.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/world/asia/04pstan.html?_r=1
The Rudd Govt has been in existence for some 15 months now. His Ministers are doing not only fantastically well but also not a single one has involved in any sort of scandal and no resignation. Compare that with Howard’s first Ministry. It’s chalk and cheese.
And now comes the news that:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bombshell-withdrawals-rock-obama/2009/02/04/1233423256599.html
In addition to Richardson and his Treasury Secretary TIMOTHY Geithner just scrapped in with similar tax problem that has dogged Tom Daschle. That’s what happened when you sent a boy to do a man’s job. They should have sent a Lady. She’s doing very well TQ.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-02-03-voa48.cfm
Where’s Smithy? he should be there at DC.
It’s good to see that Ross Gittin and the Rudd Govt is supporting the mantra I have been chanting: “How come we are not yet in deficit”.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/time-to-fire-the-fiscal-cannon-20090203-7wsq.html?page=-1
GP and Co,
Your side is ffffed as long as Cossie is there lurking and smirking. You guys really practice what you preach, especially the preaching of your old mate Dubya: “You are either with us or against us”. You should give Cossie an ultimatum: “You are either in with us or out with us”.
Boerwar 651
The theory is that you should spend (via stimulus if needed) enough to get/keep the economy out of recession. Borrowing to achieve that is justifiable. However you wouldn’t want to borrow more than that just to stimulate higher growth, because you will have to pay back that debt later. The economy was growing at a bit over +4% previously and it dropped to about 1.7% last year – a drop of about 2.5%. It was forecast to drop another 2% this year to be stagnant or slightly in recession (the figures are never exact). So a stimulus of about 2% of GDP should have been enough to stabilise things, allowing for some predictive uncertainty. That is what Rudd has done. GDP is about 1000 billion, so 2% is $20 billiion. The total stimulus is $42 billion over four years, but the majority is in the first two years, so it is about 2% of GDP. Looks like they got the size right to me.
One question people might wonder – if growth stays flat but not negative, how come unemployment is forecast to rise? The answer is that the population is growing. The economy needs to grow about 1.7% per annum just to soak up new workforce entrants, without increasing average income for anyone. So treasury is correct that, assuming we just avoid recession and existing job holders don’t lose their jobs (mostly) the job queues will lengthen. In reality there will be some turnover, but thats the theory.
Here’s Costello last night:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=umHFZiJLV5c
I think Rudd’s plan is ingenious.
a. give people money, so they are happy (eventhrough it is their own taxpayer money, in some cases they did not even pay tax)
b. if the people do not spend it wisely to kick start the economy. ie spending it on pokies, we can blame them later.
c. after the plan does not work, we can have a socialist takeover of the economy and blame the capitalist.
Rudd is one smart cookie, even through the last stimulus package had no impact, he does not change the model of the package. He kept the same modek
Bree has the wrong link:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yxlaYQpEXF8
I’ve got to agree with GP and Janet A that Rudd is being extremely disingenuous when he tries to differentiate his “social conservatism” from Howard’s “neoliberalism”. His election strategy was all “Me too!”. He’s trying to get the best of both world’s with his selective lifting of the popular bits of capitalism and socialism. It’s a bit unedifying.
Comrades some food for thought.
Here in W.A. Colin Barnett served as a loyal deputy to Richard Court 93-2001 and performed strongly in all his portfolios . After the Liberal defeat in 2001 he became leader of the opposition .
In what must be some sort of modern day record he held the position for the whole 4 years despite constant undermining from a certain withering faction within his own party and against a very popular Geoff Gallop.
Going into the 2005 election the Liberals were very competitive with some polls even suggesting a Liberal win 3 days out. Barnett then made the fatal mistake of announcing a canal project from the Kimberleys which was ill conceived and widely ridiculed .
The election was lost in humilliating fashion. Barnett said he would serve out his term on the back bench and then retire. I’m sure you are all aware the Libs churned through 3 leaders culminating in Troy Buswell .
When the party was finally on its knees ,the same people who undermined Barnett in his first term as opposition leader begged him to defer his highly publicised retirement and return to the leadership.
Barnett is now the Premier of W.A. with polling numbers simillar to Kevin Rudd’s.
With the debillitating period of opposition aside , do we see any parallels comrades??
That’s extremely simplistic and you know it. Rudd and Howard were poles apart on education, infrastructure, health, and the list goes on.
dovif @662
“…even through the last stimulus package had no impact…”
Is that so? Why do you say that?
It will take 3 or 4 months for the impact to wash through. It is simply not possible for it to have had no impact.
trueblue @ 665
Excellent comment. It proves that if you lose an election as opposition leader, you can still become victorious at a later election. Eg. Howard lost in 1987, then won in 1996 because he learnt from past errors. It was the same thing for Barnett, it was a great comeback by him.
No, just long bows and magical thinking.
If Turnbull leads the Coalition to defeat in 2010. He definately won’t be around in 2013. Costello is more likely to win the 2013 federal election rather than 2010.
ABC radio just reported that cable news (Sky I presume) reported that the coalition will vote against the $42 billion stimulus package.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/turnbulls–bombshell/2009/02/04/1233423268846.html
Bree@670
You missed the point.
Turnbull won’t last until 2010. When the party is on it’s knees later this year or early 2010 it will have no option but to draft Costello who will then have absolute authority to lead.
Turnbull is seaking in parliament now. Sounds like Brian Harride in GST debate.
trueblue @ 673
The man is patient. Costello will prefer to wait when Rudd is weak in 2013. Turnbull will lose in 2010.
Turnbull just slit his own throat
Think of the Kiddies, Dario!
The Libs are obviously hedging their bets that the Greens, Xenophon and Fielding will support it in the Senate… then they can sit back and carp over the next 2 years about how their ideas would’ve been better.
Julie Bishop now speaking.
Except they don’t have any
I believe their entire plan is tax cuts.
#678
Maybe, though I thought Fielding had complained in the past about not enough time to debate legislation, so maybe he’ll agree with Turnbull. Parliament sits again on the 23rd. Maybe it’ll be passed in that week and the stalling this week won’t amount to anything. It’s not so desperate that a couple weeks will matter.
As I said, they don’t have any
They want to sit next week.
I didn’t hear Turnbull, but Julie Bishop is complaining about a lot more than the deadline.
She came up with a great alternative view, too. Do nothing!
“Bad public policy” – Julie Bishop. How can they vote for a “bad” $42 billion policy under any circumstances?
Xenephon and Brown are obviously maneuvering to demonstrate their relevance in the Senate. Some small tinkering should be sufficient to make them happy. Fielding is ultra conservative at heat but I can’t imagine he would actually vote against this package. The education and welfare measures support previously stated objectives of his, so he would be exposed as a complete hypocrite to oppose it.
An update on yesterdays chart on which electorates get the most out of Kevvie’s Cash Rewards – this time, which electorates have benefited most from both the two tranches of fiscal stimulus as well as interest rate deduction. It’s an interesting spread of seats.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/02/04/electoral-effects/
“Fielding is ultra conservative” – socially yes, economically he is actually left of centre.
bob
OK that is my perception based on understanding of Fielding and his backers but I find him bizarrely inconsistent on the econoomics. Sometimes ultra-right and then left when it suits. Anyway, he keeps banging on about families, so he will have a hard time opposing measures that generate basic employment and benefits to those families and their schools. If he winds up being the individual that causes delay to the payment of benefits to families the govt should definitely let people know he was the cause.
Looking at Poss’s graph (good work!) its interesting too that there are quite a few country electorates that are reliant on the bonus payments. The NP members of the coalition must be struggling to agree to oppose the stimulus. Any chance someone like Joyce would defect on this one?
No, Joyce was against the last package and will be against this one too.
Could Labor use the rejection of the Stimulus bill as a reason for a DD
If yes, then the libs are on a hiding to nothing.
Any stated reason? Despite the (socially) “conservative” tag, the Nationals were known as the agrarian socialists in Qld. They aren’t shy about pork barreling in their constituencies. This package includes EVERY school (many country ones) and insulation for many low income houses that will be rural too. Rural students living in the city will also be major beneficiaries from the student bonus. I would have thought ehy would be vulnerable to arguments that they are opposing Labor for political reasons and ignoring their constituents if they oppose this one.
Similarly given that even Heather Rideout and the Business Council have supported the package, you wonder who outside of parliament actually wants the Libs to oppose it?
Double dissolutions take a long time to set up… the bill needs to be rejected, 3 months has to pass and then it needs to be reintroduced and rejected again.
Just the usual rubbish about there being no modelling.
Wow, opposing the $950 payouts I can understand poltically. But voting against funding for schools?
woops link-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/04/2481857.htm
Turnbull has just signed his own political death warrant. He ha said the Libs will vote against the stimulus bill.
Costello sums up the stimulus package very well:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=umHFZiJLV5c
Gusface, it has to be rejected twice. I don’t think the coaltion or the crossbench would let that happen.
we all know Gary, catch up!
Rudd could take the house to an election couldn’t he? I reckon he would romp it in.
701 – excuse me for doing other things.
Gary, there needs to be two rejections with 3 months inbetween. The other parties wouldn’t let it happen, they would pass it.
Rudd has set them up, developed the narrative on Labor and Liberals and Turnbull has just stepped into the main character role, black hat and all.
If this does get blocked then the Liberal Party wont have a hope in hell of even maintaining their current number of seats. Australians are becoming affraid, Turnbull is doing something to make them more affraid.
Turnbull is a fool.
That’s for a double dissolution. You can have House only elections… but that runs the risk of Senate only elections which are always bad news for governments.
Christopher Pyne doing nothing is corageous.
bob1234 – The House, not the Senate.
Bree (if that indeed be your name),
You keep posting the incorrect link. This is it: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yxlaYQpEXF8
Check out all the hawt young libs hanging on to every word.
i reckon the libs will do a backflip with pike in the end.
Zombie, at least they have turned into a ranting opposition now. Until now they thought they were just a government in exile. Now they are setting themselves up for years in opposition.
Dario
Rudd’s “Me too!” was on economic management. He did differentiate himself from the Government on a few areas as you say. But tried to show that there was only a cigarette paper between him and Howard on the economy,
Turnbull is fully entitled to reject the package if he has a better plan, but he doesn’t. I’m even more sure he won’t see the year out. He will be sadly missed by no-one.
Delaying the stimulus is still a very dangerous game. Most independant commentators agree that the sooner it is done the better, and the lower long term cost. So anyone who delays it without specific reason is arguably increasing the damage a recession will do. See Ross Gittins for example:
http://business.smh.com.au/business/time-to-fire-the-fiscal-cannon-20090203-7wsq.html
“Retail sales increased by 3.8 per cent in December ”
Yeah the first $10b stimulus did nothing…..
Turnbull really needs to improve his act.
1. “If you give people one-off windfall lump sums in uncertain times they are more likely to save it than to spend it,” he said.
Wrong. Almost all economists say that a one-off lump sum is more likely to be spend than ongoing funds.
2. “Whether governments like to hear it or not the good old-fashioned conservative value of thrift and saving is going to come back into fashion and … it ought to come back into fashion.”
So we do the opposite to every country and try to save our way out of a recession. Bring on The Depression.
3. Mr Turnbull said $42 billion was a larger stimulus than was appropriate.
Despite being a conservative spending package compared to other similar countries.
Christopher Whinger Pyne is currently speaking in HoR. What a whinger.
“If you give people one-off windfall lump sums in uncertain times they are more likely to save it than to spend it,” he said.
“Retail sales increased by 3.8 per cent in December”
Question Time shall be amusing
FYI anyone can watch parliament here:
http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/
Zomie, these figures were not as bad as predicted too due to economic stimulus 1.
http://www.ttf.org.au/Content/indicators0109.aspx
That’s what I was hinting at…
Sarcasm does not travel well over the intertubes.
I never learn.
oh. click link first
stfu Mao
*slaps self*
Well he was the biggest taxing and biggest spending treasurer of all time, so he knows a lot about spending.
The house of reps outside of question time is normally boring, but it’s actually decent now that they’re debating stimulus mach 2.
So, with the Labor government supporting a $42b economic stimulus including a $950 cash payment to taxpayers under $80k a year, and the coalition opposition opposing a $42b economic stimulus including a $950 cash payment to taxpayers under $80k a year, I wonder what the next Newspoll will be? A new record set maybe?
Everyone at work yesterday was ecstatic over the payment, they were all saying, finally the government is actually doing something that affects the average joe! I can tell you all now, this opposition will not go down well AT ALL with the average joe.
ShowsOn, pity the spending was wasteful and not used on health/education/infrastructure, when it should have been during the mining boom years.
“Well he was the biggest taxing and biggest spending treasurer of all time, so he knows a lot about spending.”
and VERY taxing.
The hilarious part of this Lateline interview is the way Costello is quick to say how wrong Rudd was last year about the need to control Government spending. Costello didn’t make ANY speeches in parliament last year. So if he knew what was happening, why didn’t he stand up in parliament and say so?
This is just ta bit of revisionism from Costello.
Beazley once made the mistake of voting against tax cuts. He never lived that down. The amounts involved then were small compared to the handouts in this package.
Speers believes turnbull could be looking at the long term ie when the country goes to the election with a deficit and possibly in a recession. The problem for Turnbull is that election maybe sooner than he thinks.
Costello: TONY, GET THIS INTO YOUR MIND! I SHOULD BE P.M., AND IT SUX I’M NOT
Well that had to have been the most interesting 24hrs of comments on PB for a long time. Love it when you show up GP, don’t agree with a lot of your POV, but I do enjoy reading your comments and “some” of the responses to them. Now that MT has said they will block it, I expect the next 24hrs or so will be interesting reading as well.
Another problem Turnbull has is the wide positve publication of the Rudd package which is splashed over the newspapers in good positve fashion and the positive response of the experts.
People will learn today that Turnbull has decided to stamp on it and, he wont have a simple reason to give for it.
People at work have all been talking about how they will spend their bonus. They wont be happy.
The Green Mile for Malcolm I think.
Ego and a temper tantie that Rudd won’t let him be co-PM and the fact that Spears and others were saying Turnbull can’t agree to the stimulus and have any credibility left after bagging the first one for the past couple of months (after initially agreeing with it).
I’m not worried Rudd will get his bill through after the usual postuering from Bob, Fielding and mr X
Costello in full scale leadership destabilisation mode now…
Media campaign continues tomorrow morning on Radio Courier Mail with gormless Mrs Courier Mail asking the scripted questions.
Zombie Mao
Turnbull was right; the November stimulus did NOT work. Retail sales may have been up but his personal 2PP vote is still down. How can any opposition leader be expected to support a measure that helps the nation but doesn’t assist in his own election?
By this one action, the Coalition puts at risk Cowper, Macarthur, Fisher, Fairfax, Hinkler, Wide Bay and La Trobe. But where do they gain?
Nowhere – they already have the seats that might agree with their stand.
Worse still for them, the public will see this as a party playing games with their economic interest, turning the alleged “strength” of the LNP (popular economic management) into a weakness. Especially as Labor starts rolling out examples of median income families with 3 kids being over $4500 dollars worse off because of Turnbull.
People are looking for good news – by doing this, Turnbull turns the fear and public apprehension about a looming recession and job losses against him.
If it doesn’t pass the Senate, Rudd gets a free kick laying every job loss in the country that happens at the feet of the Coalition. If the Coalition backflips and passes it, they get slaughtered as wishy washy and untrustworthy.
If it passes without Coalition support, the differences between the rest of the world and Australia in terms of growth and unemployment rates will be thrown in their faces (i.e. if the Coalition had their way, we’d have unemployment rates like the US, Europe etc do)
I’m expecting this to start happening today in QT.
Agree Poss – they can kiss goodbye all those “Howard battler” seats with this stand. The fact that they have offered no meaningfull alternative is what realy makes them look cynical.
As I said before, I think there is a fair bit of danger for the Nats in this too. There are a lot of country areas struggling economicaly now with the decline in mining. They would want the stimulus badly. The extra road maintenance funding for national highways is bread and butter for a lot of small rural councils. I could see a of of ripe opportunities for high profile independants in country seats opposing sitting Nats.
Even the OO agrees disagrees with Turnbull that the stimulus package has been spent. Turnbull is going to start feeling very, very lonely soon.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25006762-12377,00.html
Is there a NewsPoll next week? If so, I guess they will poll about Rudd’s package / mini-budget.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,25006722-1702,00.html
”
Mr Rudd said merchant bankers won’t be paying the price of that decision, but mums and families and “tradies” would.
“Mr Turnbull’s Liberals in the Senate now stand in the way of the biggest school modernisation in history, financial support for Australian householders and support for up to 90,000 jobs.”
Hello all!
I think Turnball has effectively signed his political death warrant and handed the next election to Rudd on a platter!
Who the hell is advising the Libs these days? They are truly clueless!
Surely the smarter thing would have been to let the package pass through parliament, and if the economy hasn’t recovered by 2010, Rudd gets blamed.
Parliament this afternoon should be a hoot, I say let Gillard, Swan and Tanner off the leash!
Any predictions yet on next week’s Newspoll in the wake of today’s events?
Maybe Labor 62, Coalition 38?
With stories like this that show up the lie that the 1st stimulus didn’t work to beat Turnbull over the head with QT will be fun.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/retail-sales-rose-38-in-december-20090204-7xaz.html
SNIP: Nothing comment deleted – The Management.
HA HA The Business Council Of Australia is backing Rudd/Swan.
This is the mother of free kicks for Labor
Turnball won’t last another 6 months, the question is do they resurrect Smirky?
Even Courier Mail economic columnist Terry McCran has agreed the stimulus is needed
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25004935-3122,00.html
Labor Ministers only need to point out examples of schools missing out on new libraries or performing arts centres, because of the Libs.
I wonder if he’ll last a month, surely this is the end for him and the beginning for Costello.
Makes one wonder if Turnbull is being fed some phony info, like the sales figures were going to be flat? No one in their right mind would block something the same day that proof is released that it is working.
Looks like they’re going to reschedule estimates next week
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25006927-601,00.html
I hope these Independents’ emails and phones run hot with abuse from unhappy voters.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/push-for-senate-inquiry-into-rudds-plan-20090204-7xdi.html
You assume that Turnbull is in his right mind
What are you going to do Steve? Put police at every pokie machine and personally interrogate every player as to whether or not they are using the handout? lol
You could be right Dario
People will spend their handout in many different ways. Some of them spend their pensions on the machines. Do we stop giving them the pension?
Senator Fielding was far less concerned that those who saved money from not paying the luxury car tax might put it into pokies? Curious how this danger only happens to money from certain sources.
Fielding will suggest that the cash should really be in the form of vouchers which can’t be used in clubs – or some crazy scheme that will be almost impossible to administer and will take forever to wash through the economy. Fielding is a dud.
Forgetting that if the package is opposed regional schools will get nothing.
Any evidence available to prove Fielding’s (and X’s, I suspect) belief that stimulus money was spent on poker machines?
Like comparison data December 2007 and December 2008 indexed for inflation and other variables?
Be interesting to see.
And why shouldn’t a bigger school get more? What a dill
IIRC more was spent in December 2006 on pokies than Dec 2008
Fulvio 757
I recall there was some evidence of increased spending on pokies in the December period. I would think it very likely that it would happen. But it is still not a counterargument. For any group that is given extra money some % will misuse it. As GB said you could use that argument to stop paying pensions entirely. This applies to every income group. As tax rates for high income earners have fallen, their saving rate hasn’t risen, but sales of frivolous luxuries have increased over the past decade. Who is to say that blowing $500k on an imported sports car isn’t just as big a waste of money as pokie machines.
The only real solution is to ban or more tightly regulate pokie machines (which I would support BTW).
I went to one of those under 50 students schools and we only had two old wooden buildings. $250,000 would just about build a whole new school
SMH Reader Poll
The $42b stimulus package
Who do you support
Rudd – 58%
Turnbull – 34%
Unsure – 8%
Total Votes: 7435
Fairfax online polls always favour Labor.
News Ltd are more favourable to the Coalition… even then I think people support Labor (slightly) more.
#757
In any case, there are umpteen ways to waste money – alcohol, travel, concert tickets, ornaments, etc. – and most of them probably do just as good a job of stimulating the economy as anything else. It’s not for politicians to decide between all these which are acceptable and which aren’t.
763 itep -
at the moment:
in favour of Rudd’s plan: 49%
in favour of Turnbull blocking it: 43%
dunno: 6%
Colin Barnett reallly is a smart leader – he has backed the Rudd package.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/barnett-defies-turnbull-to-support-plan-20090204-7xf6.html
Interesting that its only the Liberal leader who has won an election who is supporting the package. Later in the same article Lindsay Tanner points out that Turnbull’s tax cut policy mirror’s George Bush’s policy. So under Turnbull our tax approach could be called “All the way with Dumbo”.
right. It’s official.
Turnbull is buggered
On those surveys about the stimulus – it depends heavily on the wording of the question too. One News paper poll I saw asked if you thought the stimulus would prevent a recession or not, rather than if you supported it. Givne that even fans of teh package have acknowledged we might still go into recession, but that the stimulus will mean things aren’t as bad, this obviously loads the result against the package.
According to last night’s ABC news, the WA govt is (among other things) extending the northern suburbs train line to Brighton, which I guess is similar to the Butler extension that got scrapped when they got in a few months ago. Didn’t hear anything about the Ellenbrook line though.
NSW / Vic / etc folk: is any extra money getting spent on public transport infrastructure over there? (I’m especially thinking of the lines in Sydney that keep on getting scrapped.)
Can we please stop using online polls as some kind of barometer for this? They are a joke
Only from the federal infrastructure fund I think. NSW is shutting up shop I think.
Online polls are as accurate as Sky Noos polls. They are useless.
Agreed Dario – I didn’t post it to suggest anything definative – just for interests sake – pass the salt and take a pinch.
BOP 769
In Adelaide there is a major upgrading of the rail system starting now with State funds. It involves new track sleepers, finally electrifying the system and a new depot. I think they hope to extend a line to Seaford if they get Federal funds.
Has the Coalition actually said why it opposes the spending on schools?
HAHAHAHAHA the entire opposition is having a collective stroke listening to Kevin Rudd in Question Time. This is great!!
Yes, it’s taken only one Dorothy Dixer for Rudd to get to a specific example at a specific school.
Kev is sooooo enjoying himself
Oz
Knowledge is dangerous. You can’t stay “brave and true” if you start thinking about who you might vote for. Educating the future voters is the thin end of the wedge. Keep at it and the punters will wind up voting any nerd in as PM, instead of the Right People.
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090204-Turnbull-opposes-stimulus.html
A very good article.
Was getting a bit sick of every opinion piece today being either “Not good” or looking up at Rudd with sopping, adoring eyes.
Lindsay Tanner – “That is the stupidest question I have ever heard”.
It was pretty terrible.
Tunbull just STFU
My god he is digging his own grave
Gillard with a dorothy dix question on education now. Like a cat playing with a toy, with the opposition in the roll of fluffy mouse.
Julie Bishop just asked an even stupider question…
I don’t believe this…
“Costello will be leader before the end of next year” – Me, 16th September 2008 after Turnbull succeeded Brendan Nelson.
wow OZ. Impressive.
Now tell me what the Saturday Lotto numbers will be
Swan’s reply quoting turnbull was pure pythonesque
Ohhh, Wilson said “bastard”, guess he wants to get on the news
How long as Truss been senile?
We hav FL here sprouting Rudd is a economic consevativ (untrue) and Turnbull believing th Costello suporters that rejecting th packge is econamicly responsible
Trouble is Costello backers didn’t add that when you oppose giving th punters money from h govt and spending it on th punters schools , poll approval numbers will go down
As for th false claims made here , that Rudd is a economic consevativ & somehow in neoliberalism territory this is either econamic illiterasy or knowingly spamming nonsense In fact Rudd is a social democrat
Here it comes – Question about Retail figures released this morning
This will be funny
Zombie Mao:
Why would I tell you? I’m keeping them for myself =P
“How long has Truss be senile?”
Since he was born
Benjamin Button without the getting younger bit
as far as the online polls go all you have to do between votes is to delete your cookies, you can keep adding up votes forevermore if your that way inclined–well maybe the young lib staffers get paid by the vote.
Member for Bowman clearly wanted a snack break.
Nah he had some urgent printing to attend to.
797 – lol
It is shades of Whitlam, educating the unwashed masses, they don’t need an education to work at a checkout or in hardware store.
Libs oppose raising the school age, computers for kids and generally people gaining knowledge.
As Prince Charles famously said the trouble with giving the masses access to a better education is that they want to rise above their station instead of accepting their allotted place in society.
now the opposition is asking Dorothy Dixers
go tony smith!
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=8498
Opinion piece about Rudd
I have no idea what to make of Turnbull …. bringing forward tax cut, good luck trying to calculate how much tax to pay, the tax cut can only be done at 30/6
Suddenly Costello is speaking in the House, appearing on TV, writing for The Age. He’s baaaaack. And if Turnbull turns in many more QT performances as appalling as yesterday’s and today’s, Costello won’t have long to wait.
Costello just makes Turnbull look bad whenever you compare the two, one could speak the pants of the other and one oozes confidence and other other nothing pleasent…i dont think Turnbull is doing a bad job but when you compare him with Costello there isnt much Turnbull has that Costello doesnt have….
You could have this…
Costello (Leader of the Opp)
Turnbull (Treasurer)
By the way what happened to Nelson? He sits across from Costello hasnt said a word since being dumped what is he up to?
If Turnbull became Treasurer after being deposed by leader he would be a joke everytime he got up to say something.
Costello and Robb?
Costello and Abbott
That would be apt.
Nelson is being smart, he could join in the opposition attacks and look as silly and stupid as the rest of them or he could do the sensible thing and support labors initiatives but this would mean he opposing his own party. Rock and a hard place.
Tony would eat Swan for breakfast…
Robb would also do an apt job but what would happen to Malcolm?
Wouldnt we risk losing Wentworth without him?
Did Costello speak in QT today, i pre-recorded it but havent seen it yet?
Costello wants to have his time in the sun after sitting on his behind for so long…
Nope not yet at least. MT, Bishop, Hockey, Truss, Smith, Pyne.
You think MT would let him ask a question???
I don’t think you will enjoy it much today Glen.
After sitting on his bum for 12 years he is probably worried about how much skin will peel off when he finally rises to do something, shades of that person who sat on a toilet seat for ten years and became welded to it.
I live in hope Grog…
Let me take a guess what happens…
Gillard speaks tells us that the Tories are against the stimulus are radical free market ppl who started the GFC and who have no plan of their own to stop a recession…
Responded by Malcolm Turnbull saying ‘Ahhh’ alot…i get the picture…
But QT didnt always look good for Kimbo or Crean or even Latham…or Rudd for that matter when they were in Opposition because frankly it gives the Govt the mouthpiece to say what stupid sods the other side is through dorothy dixers…
Just out of interest I googled the ABC site for the terms “Costello” and “leadership”. Eight thousand results. The first page alone points to speculation in the years:
2008
2007
2005
2004
2002
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=J1t&q=leadership+costello+site%3Aabc.net.au&btnG=Search&meta=
How can he ever hope to be taken seriously in 2009?
The member for Dickson just made a dick-son of himself
The self immolation continues
Glen, today Malcolm and co were asking the dorothy dixers…
seriously…
Nice one, Nicola. That got Dutton fired up.
What does it matter anyway, we arent going to win in 2010…i just hope we dont go backwards…
Or else Tony Abbott and Barnaby Joyce will be leading the Coalition…lol
Ahh, Comedy Gold with Dad & Dave
I have been wailing about Obama on the “Buy America” issue which i thought would harm the effort to fight against the GFC.
I take my hat off to Obama. He is doing the right thing to admit his mistake. he is showing true leadership. With the appointment of Hillary as the SOS, he has shown good judgment and i am beginning to warm up to Obi.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7868799.stm
“What does it matter anyway, we arent going to win in 2010…i just hope we dont go backwards…” – Glen.
Preserved for posterity.
Let the Liberal implosion continue, I waited 11 long years for this, I want these bastards to suffer! And Turnball is the gift that just keeps on giving, who would have thought he’d be worse than Nelson?
Rudd in QT today: perhaps his best ever parliamentary performance!
I could be talking about the 2010 State election in Victoria bob1234 lol!
“I could be talking about the 2010 State election in Victoria bob1234 lol!”
Doing a Ron are we?
Finnigans: Hillary as SOS is turning out to be one of Obama’s few smart cabinet appointments so far LOL
You’ve got to wonder about the adequacy of the vetting process when people who haven’t put in tax returns are getting picked for plum jobs.
How long have Tony Abbot and Barnaby Joyce been in the Victorian Parliament?
Glen: I’ll concede the next New South Wales Election to you guys, that’s a no brainer, you should really win that one.
Itep at #756
You quoted this:
“Federal Nationals leader Warren Truss says small schools in country areas will not get much help from the Federal Government’s stimulus plan.
But Mr Truss has told Parliament that primary schools with less than 50 students will only get $250,000, while big primary schools will get up to $3 million.”
Got a link for that please?
I may want to be able to refer to it the future as one the most sefish and stupid comments coming from a politicain.
I hope so Evan, NSW labor really need a cleanout and it does good to get the libs in now and again to refresh peoples memories of why they vote labor.
Greiner was a case in point, Mr Deregulation personified, did away with warranties for used cars let the market weed out the bad dealers, and then wneto on to work for the tobacco industry after ICAC found against him. Enough said.
fredex:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/04/2482135.htm?section=justin
Glen, I think you are right when you said:
“What does it matter anyway, we arent going to win in 2010…i just hope we dont go backwards…”
but if the Opposition gives up and doesn’t at least try and take coherent positions on matters of importance, that’s not good for Australian democracy and the country at large.
My own experience as an active union member of long standing through the dark years of a hostile Howard Govt tells me that sometimes, even if you know you are going get lose, you still have to have to be in the fight and advocating for the positions you believe in. You do what you can with what you have as and when you can.
I really don’t think that the Libs will be able to to be an effective opposition until Costello leaves the Parliament. I think he is way to out for himself and will put his political ambitions ahead of the good of the country. But when he’s gone and the Libs can really settle down, the ALP may face a real electoral challenge in 2013.
Avoid despair mate. Nothing good comes of it.
evan14, they should have won in 2007. But, you know, the opposition is the Liberals. Not exactly a good candidate for government.
Typical National party rubbish. They want $3 million for a school with 50 kids just because it is in a regional area!
The Nationals have never been interested in funding things based on NEED. Their idea of priorities is to hand over as much cash as possible to rural areas.
I think we’ll have NSW and WA by 2010, i wouldnt bet on SA or Victoria but it is still a years time to go…
Still 2 is better than 0 a while ago…
Imacca the good news is some years from now the ALP will be in the same position we are in federally ill be happy and the rest on PB wont be…politics works in full circles…
“Their idea of priorities is to hand over as much cash as possible to rural areas.”
Welcome to the Country Party, established 1920.
Glen, the Libs have WA already. Did their support of Rudd’s stimulus make you think otherwise?
Glen, Labor was never in opposition in all states and territories during the Howard government.
How exactly are the Liberals going to be running NSW by the end of the year when the election is two years away?
Wow, has question time gone for 2 hours now? Did Howard ever do that? Talk about accountability!!
HA! “Some years from now” is probably right Glen. I think a problem for the libs is a “shallow gene pool” in the Parliament. The current depth of quality on the ALP front bench gives them more options and flexibility. I think it will be a wide circle.
Got to run. Meetings for the next 2 hours. yuck!!
But they were in the 60s bob1234 ahhh Ming…
Generally the government will let question time run longer if they have a strong political message to get out, oh, and if the opposition are asking dud questions.
Xenophon, Fielding and the Coalition have referred the package to committee.
NSW voters IMO elected Labor again in 2007 because they were horrified by the thought of SerfChoices. So, acting on the presumption the danger is past, they will likely vote Liberal next time.
They might be in for a shock though. If the NSW Liberals are anything like their WA counterparts (and I’m sure they are) they will fight to retain as much of SerfChoices as possible.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/wa-to-reject-new-federal-ir-system-20090129-7ssk.html
Glen
I would concede NSW in 2010 too. All they have to do is put up a cleanskin candidate that promises reform and doesn’t say anything too stupid and they can’t miss.
And the WA Libs should be VERY careful with this as it would only take the Independent member for Kalgoorlie, the former Labor MP John Bowler to vote against any legislation and it will be history
Imacca
That is the difference between labor and the conservatives, labor have a long history back to the 19th century of always seeking to improve conditions and life for folk. Labor have been out of office for long periods but have not lost the will the to keep going, the libs lose and talk of forming a new party. They have no history no purpose except for themselves.
Not yet they haven’t.
All those wanting a Coalition victory in the 2011 NSW election – advise Barry O’Farrell not to get photographed in speedos, it didn’t work for Peter Debnam or Ted Bailieu.
That was the most entertaining QT in recent memory.
Oh wait, the last QT of the Howard years. That was better. Howard and Costello had never been so red-faced.
According to the morning ABC program I was listening to here in Perth, the prority business being discussed by the Barnett Liberal/National/assorted oddbods coalition is the erection of a statue of Charles Court …
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25007004-601,00.html
I’m ahead of the curve.
Fielding might as well join the Coalition, but Family First are little more than another branch of the Liberal Party.
On economic issues Family First are closer to the Nationals, which is further to the left than most in Labor.
Frank at 845
I’d like to see the WA Liberal government history, along with their “SerfChoices reborn”.
To be fair to Barnett, at least his statement in support of the stimulus shows that he knows which way the wind is blowing.
I wonder how Evans and Rudd feel having to deal with him after he was elected because of Labor. The Greens have pretty much been the best friends Labor has in the Senate, and it was their seat Fielding took.
I think he just wants the money…
He can’t say “We oppose this, but we’ll gladly reap the benefits of it.”
I’m not so sure. Didn’t that millionaire ex-Liberal candidate, Bob Day, in South Australia, defect to FF. I think he’d be no leftie.
QT in the house has just concluded with the Government pointing out the number of farming families in particular coalition held electorates who will miss out on the $950 bonus. The government tactics committee has done a very good job in preparing for QT over the last 12 months but today they were sensational.
A channelling of funds from cities to rural areas is not “left”, just country populism.
Sure, but he was a Liberal for 30 something years. He just spat the dummy because he wasn’t pre-selected for Mayo.
The opposition front bench are woeful, a really awful performance in QT, the morale of their backbench can’t be too good. And when they have to drag out Wilson Tuckey to interrupt proceedings with more useless points of order, that’s a sign they are struggling.
From Annabelle Crabb:
Something ironic about that considering we have one of the highest private debt levels in the world.
Day was one of the Liberals’ more radical IR radicals. If he truly believes in putting the family first he would have to recant some of his hard-edged extremist beliefs. I wonder if that would be possible for someone who’d been a Liberal for 30 years.
Though to be fair, the Statue was proposed by Alan Carpenter when Sir Charles went to join Ming in Heaven
re Serfchoices, all Labor and the Unions have to mention is Graham Keireth
Beazley did similar in trying to delay Howards tax cuts, it was just a way of getting media attention to say “Hey we are here, look at me”, the media flayed him and labor for delaying them, will they do the same to Turnball and the libs?
Senate delay. Not unexpected. Just more time for Rudd and co to pummel the LNP.
Hopefully the greens and Mr X will come up with some sensible amendments.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/04/2482302.htm
How can he complain about debt and want more at the same time??!?!!??!?!?!??!?!
No it wasn’t. The Greens have never won a Senate seat in Victoria. Fielding took his seat from Labor’s Jacinta Collins.
That’s not what I was suggesting. If Labor preferences flowed traditionally, the seat would have been The Greens and probably was expected to be theirs, over Fielding’s by the people voting for Labor.
“Their seat” refers to my own bias that it should have gone to them.
I forgot to mention that The West had a story on how the committee for the above is comprised of highly paid public servants and how at present hasn’t been subject to the 3% savings edict put in place by Barnett.
They could make the statue 3% smaller!
lol, Tanner is comparing Turnbull to Stanley Bruce.
Especially the Eyebrows
Amigo Vera, that crabby Annabel has stolen your hairdo
Finns
What a cheek!
have you got a photo link?
Another reason why Turnbull’s move is such a disaster;
Business capital investment will immediately stop dead in the water, with all big purchases deferred waiting for the bonus depreciation announced in Labor’s package to kick in. The longer the Coalition and the loony independents delay the package in the Senate, the more economic damage will be done. I can just hear the BCA screaming down the ‘phone at him now!!!
Nice one Malcolm.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/people/top-smear-clarkson-revs-up-on-rudd/2009/02/04/1233423292159.html
Finally a honest comment on the trouble we are in. It is bad and going to get worse, the $4 billion package that Turnball and Hockey deride as the Rudd bank is needed to stop propoerty values crashing, if commercial property values crash so does housing and hello the Big D,.
A bloke on the Business Channel was even blaming the weak day on the stock market on Turnbull for causing uncertainty by blocking the stimulus
The “package” will be passed next week, The Green’s will ensure that all the new houses being built will be eco-effecient. (A boost to this sector and a good idea).
This puts the pressure on X and FF. Pressure they will cave in to. If they want to avoid being known as the person who stopped the cash payments. Neither of them is that “courageous”.
That leaves Turnbull with all the pain for zero gain.
lol, go Tony Windsor for drilling the opposition and the disgraceful way they’ve acted.
HAHA, Tony Windsor repeated Kevin Rudd’s misspeak of calling Christopher Pyne the member for Skirts… hilarious.
Frank at 845:
Not quite… they need two extra. There’d be some severely bad blood between Labor and Bowler, but they might still hold their nose and work with him if he changes sides. I’d actually pick Brendon Grylls as more likely to work with Labor than Bowler… after all, he was the one who wanted to form a ALP-Nat govt. That would involve splitting the WA Nats (for, what, the third time?), though, so it ain’t likely.
Short version: unless there’s a by-election that goes the right way, we’ve got a Lib-Nat govt for the forseeable future. Barnett seems to be less of a fool than Turnbull, so I’m not thaaat worried about it. I wonder if he’ll end up doing as Gallop / McGinty did to a certain other federal opposition leader a few years back.
Oz @ 851,
That report is incorrect. It won’t actually be referred until tomorrow morning.
Ahh, 2005 State election and the Member for Werriwa
Are you suggesting Malcolm be replaced with Julie ? 
The vote to refer will be done this evening though, right?
I think we’re getting caught up in a really minor detail.
Gary Bruce
This is from Finns post #819 today , and is a live exmple of “O” delivery
In another interview with Fox News, Mr Obama said he wanted “to see what KIND of language we can work on this issue”.
“I think it WOULD be a mistake though, at a time when worldwide trade is declining, for us to start sending a message that somehow we’re just looking after ourselves and not concerned with world trade,” he said.
“to see what KIND of language we can work on this issue”.?
Th ONLY ‘kind” of language Obama should use is reality …ie that th now Democrat controlled HOR passed Bill IS actualy grossly protectionist , which he Obama did suport …he is admitting he is playing with words
Th second statement allows Obama/USA to STILL get th benefit of still having a terrible US protectionisms that th whole World condemns , but ‘appear’ to be ’sympathetic’ saying it would be a ‘mistake’ in message …it is either a damn mistake…or it is not a damm mistake
Obama is ‘appearing’ to say sympatheticaly one thing , but doing completely th othr Now US has long history of doing this charade , but my point is this guy does it miles better orortorialy , and so can exagerate more between reality of what is… vs what appears to be being promisd Th ‘O’ supremacy
(and by th way , all World leaders agree with me and see NO “kind of words” message’ other than reality & condemning this naked wicked protectonism without any qualification whatsoever
(including our oz politcans , but then almost zero condemnaton here , however Australia’s trade & budgetory deficits will be massiveley more than Rud said yesterday if US protectionist Bill does operate)
Are you kidding? I bet Barnett hasn’t forgotten the stunt she and Richard Court tried to pull after the 2001 state election.
I’m suggesting Colin installing Julie in Alfred Cove or Kalgoorlie so they don’t have to deal with Janet Woollard or John Bowler
What’s wrong with a country encouraging people to buy locally made products? The Australian government does it:
http://www.australianmade.com.au/australianmade
Frank just get Matt Birney to return to politics and there’s Kalgoolie back…ummm dirty tricks to get rid of Janet Woollard maybe something out of the Nixon book of politics??
Parachuting Julie Bishop into Kalgoorlie would be pretty dicey – remember, the Libs came third there last time without Matt Birney. And that’s assuming the spot becomes available, maybe through more CCC stuff (like the Peel by-election)… or are you talking about the next general election in far-off 2013?
As for Alfred Cove, this is the seat that told both Doug Shave and a reheated Graham Kierath to bugger off in successive elections – a no-name candidate actually did better than either of them. Based on that, if Bishop ran there next time, Woollard would increase her majority.
Why would the W.A. government want Julie Bishop? She is a hopeless joke in federal parliament, she was a do nothing minister, why would she be so useful in state politics?
A summary of today’s events in Canberra:
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4638/malcolmturnbull420×0uj2.jpg
“What’s wrong with a country encouraging people to buy locally made products? The Australian government does it”
why don’t you actualy read th US protectionist Bill , which is NOT optional encouragemetn to consumers as with our ‘oz’ , but a Congresss Bill , before making wrong comments
Hi Ron
your english is near perfect now! but I miss the old Ronspeak I must admit
I hardly reconised you
On Obama and language you might enjoy this
That’s pretty close to saying he was wRONg isn’t it
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/i-screwed-up-says-obama-after-daschle-withdraws-20090204-7xhb.html
Anyone reckon Ron is actually Ron Paul?
Why don’t you learn how to write.
There’s a difference between “encouraging people” and legislating to make it a necessity.
I’m sure Colin will offer either of them the Agent-General position. It won’t be Liz Constable – she’s got Edumacation
But I’m sure Bowler can be bought quite easily, and Woollard’s ego would love a plum position as well 
Nope. The article is wrong. Notice was given today, it won’t be moved until tomorrow.
It’s pretty much a done deal though.
Hi Vera
“Ron Posted Tuesday, February 3, 2009 at 10:10 pm | Permalink
#439
“Policy failure of Obama todate: ……
What he’s been wrongly been critised for A/ cabinet appointments in some Press , think most ar well chosen (just querys on HEALTH (thats Daschle) ….”
BREAKING NEWS TODAY
‘I screwed up,’ says Obama after Daschle withdraws
Vera tryin to educaton some FL posters here before ‘breaking news’ hapens is big problam But thens we also gav 24 hours in advanse news that mick dodson wuld b Australian of Year as well
Vera quoting Obama : “I THINK this was a mistake.”
Vera “That’s pretty close to saying he was wRONg isn’t it” yep Vera “O” wRONg
HOLY CRAP! Costello is making ANOTHER speech! That’s 2 in 2 days! He made ZERO in all of last year.
Ron yep, you got it right about Daschle, I’m biased
but I reckon you get most things pretty close to the mark.
WA Bludgers
6PR’s blantant attempt to petition the WA Govt to change Double Jeopardy and The Right to Silence are illegal as they do not meet the guidelines for submission to the parliament.
http://www.watoday.com.au/multimedia/2009/WA/wragg-petition/Wraggpetition.pdf
Costello seems to be reliving the 2007 election campaign.
Turnbull has done an address to the nation.
Just seen it – ha said nothing.
Is there an economic fallacy saying that future generations should not pay for infrastructure that they will use?
Remind me again, how’d he make out in that one?
The Smirk is back. Two speeches in two days!
Costello is on ABC Radio 612 Brisbane tomorrow. Is he stirring from his slumber?
Just love this from Crikey:
Yes, this is Day Two of his comeback tour.
Both Channel 7 and Channel 9 news essentially ran an advert for the Stimulus package.
Channel 7 (great journalism this) had one guy reporting from a coutnry town called “Broke”m while another was from some Bondi street called “Bonus St”. The report was that both places needed the money – Broke even has a small run down school…
So if Costello knew so much about what was happening to the economy last year, why didn’t he bother to stand up in parliament and tell anyone about it?
Why is he such a legend in his own lunch time? He knows everything – after the fact.
Unfortunately comeback tours never usually pick up new fans, just oldies trying to relive their youth….
Regarding my previous post on the petition currently being distributed and it’s possible illegality, I refer to the guidelines of the WA Parliament on the presenting and formatting of such documents.
http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/web/newwebparl.nsf/iframewebpages/Legislative+Assembly+-+Petitions
LOL! So this radio station didn’t follow due process, because it couldn’t read a webpage?
He just can’t help himself. “I’m so clever smirk smirk, I was right all along smirk smirk, you’re all mugs smirk smirk.”
Can’t believe the Oppos could be that stupid. Can’t believe Costello could be fighting the last election, still (beautifully put, Show’s On)… all the old cliches, all the old mantras… deficits “Booo!”, Whitlam, ““Raspberry!“… Sheesh… what a bunch of losers… who does Smirk think he’s fooling?. Of course the ABC dutifully treats them half-seriously… although even that is being stretched at the idiocy of their “attack”.
But there you go… Bushfire’s “Believe It, Or Not!” Come one, come all… you’ll be amazed that any political party could be so cretinous.
Pigs fly, Costello speaks… what next? A two-headed cow?
The question that should have been asked (but wasn’t): “Why should Kevin Rudd give Turnbull a seat at the table? Rudd’s the PM. Turnbull’s just the Rainmaker?”
The petition has only been released today – I’ll be doing my level best to ensure it doesn’t get off the ground
My favourite part of Costello’s speech was when he claimed you don’t need a global financial crisis to rebuild school infrastructure. Of course this concedes that the Howard government didn’t do anything to rebuild school infrastructure.
For Costello to make his comeback, he has to rewrite history to make himself the hero.
All ALP would have to do is replay clips of Smirk quitting (almost in tears) when the going got tough, refusing to take over after Howard was kicked out. That was when a real hero would have taken the reins when his party was at it’s lowest and needed guidence. Instead he slinked off, tail between his legs to the back benches and hasn’t said boo for over a year.
Amigo Ronnie, yes i saw that too. But i decided this is a be-kind-to-Obama-day as he has also admitted that he has also screwed up on the “Buy America” thingo as this will have greater impact on Oz than that stupid Daschle.
btw: i have not seen or heard any mention of something far more important on that 3.8% increase in retail sales for Dec. something called “confidence”. The Australian people still have confidence to spend as opposed to all of the other countries that they dont have any confidence to spend. Something that money cant buy.
Well now they know it’s done wrong! Should have waited.
In the eyes of the idiot Liberals, he is a hero. So he has enough fuel in the tank to become leader.
I wonder if that is all Costello is doing, making sure history is written in his favour? Is he responding to Rudd’s essay?
My gut feeling is he has no intention of being on the front bench in opposition. But if his mythology is challenged he will wake from his slumber and leave the hammock.
thanks Vera , also predictd Costello wuld come back, AND that polls would be improvd for libs ‘over time’
Problam here is 95% here think dont like Costello & say he’ll will be a politcal liability , but everyone here isn’t th normal punter He will shore up Lib base that Nelson & Turnbull hav reely eroded…but good news is not by a enoughs by far ……and still Rudd 2nd term with inceased majority (with paradozx is some costello factorr also in Laabor vote as well with th smirk a reminder
People I talk to who don’t care for politics (ie: swinging voters) hate Costello and his arrogance. They think he’s full of it.
Why is it that that Liberals always seem to have the wrong argument at the wrong time?
During the boom they were spending money on tax cuts and transfer payments, instead of major infrastructure.
During the bust they are arguing that we should be cutting taxes, instead of spending money on infrastructure.
Frank, what law do you think they’re breaking?
Oh my, have just been catching up with the day’s events and am just astounded by Turnbull and the Libs.. Do they have a death wish? Are they really that poorly informed about the GFC? Are they just thick?
As ever, I’m peeved about the ABCs reporting of said events, e.g., PM describing the blocking of the gov’t. “handouts”, and noticeably disproportionate time given to the Libs. to spread fear about the gov’t’s. actions. Will dutifully go and complain.
Read the petitions page – it’s all there in black and white and PR has broken every rule
http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/web/newwebparl.nsf/iframewebpages/Legislative+Assembly+-+Petitions
Frank, collecting an out-of-order petition might be a waste of time, but that’s an enormously different thing from being “illegal”.
ShowsOn, they’re economic genii, that’s why the private sector has been beating a path to Costello’s door, begging, pleading, then begging again with tears in their eyes, for Costello to join their company. They’re even offering to throw in a hammock in the office, the executive washroom and the lift.
Yes, but it’s sure dodgy – to say the least. I’ve advised McGinty’s office and will see what transpires
And doing so doesn’t give the victim’s families, nor 6PR much crediability if they are incapable of even presenting a document which doesn’t meet the Parliamentry requirements.
The Liberals have obviously given up on the next election, Turnbull’s actions today are about 2013.
His slim hope is that the swindle has run its course and we are still in deficit. He will hope that people will have forgotten the past 4 years.
Desparate stuff, but it is his only hope.
Turnbull on Kerry
Turnbull says the only thing stoping a stimulus package is Rudd not sitting down and working out a package with him.
Can’t believe he is still running the bipartisan line bull.
I intended to buy an item of furniture from HN with part of my share of the stimulus package. Will now wait until the package is approved. Just trying to do my bit to help Malcolm’s mate Gerry (and the economy) and what does Malcolm and his mob do.
Oh God, MT says he is standing up for the children of Australia. (or their children’s children).
This is embarrassing.
He even suggested that if you support the $42b package you might as well support a $84b or $400b package….
Turnbull’s all ego, it’s all about him and his trying to be relevant, other than wartime whenever has a democratically elected PM ever sat down with an opposition leader and worked out policy, actually i dont even know if it was done in wartime, the mind boggles at the picture of Howard sitting at the policy table with Beasley or Rudd.
Turnbull was all over the shop. He remained calm on the surface but Kerry seriously rattled him. At interview end Turnbull embarrassed himself by suggesting Kerry was pushing his own opinions in his questioning. Kerry calmly said that all he was doing was putting propositions to him. Turnbull had egg all over his face. Least that’s how I saw it.
It seems the WA Libs may be involved in a bit of conflict of interest in regards to using an outside telemarketing firm to help in the distribution of it’s seniors bonus.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Australian_Industrial_Relations_reforms
this is in regards to this story.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/04/2482153.htm
Socrates @ 660
Thank you.
Turnbull really is awful. The number of times in that interview that he had to pause and really search for an answer was telling.
Why on earth does MT keep going on about sitting down with the PM? He might be quivering with desire to be PM, but he ain’t, and no amount of bleating about wanting to be co-PM is going to get him anything but embarrassment. Does his ego prevent him from understanding this will not happen? I’ll tell you one thing, when it finally dawns on him that he’s never going to be PM, it will be a monumental narcissistic blow and he’ll get well and truly depressed. Some psychiatrist for the well heeled will make a mint out of him, as will some pharmaceutical company.
Agreed. The thing is it is NOT normal practice. No one expects Govenrments to sit down with the opposiiton and work out economic policy. So no one wil think Rudd is doing anyhting wrong by ignoring MT.
Following Turnbull’s logic one should not take out a mortgage to buy a house. Or borrow money to buy capital equipment.
Using this logic there would be no Harbour Bridge in Sydney.
HO # 947
I reckon he’s already popping the pharmaceutical products. That look on his face tonight was far too calm for a man in his position. Then again, it’s well known that many people on death row are calm as their spirit is broken as the time of their execution draws near.
The other thing about the Turnbull interview that struck me, was his assertion that it was the Libs. who are the party of prudence, blah, blah. Both myself and him indoors cracked up and quoted Costello complaining about Howard’s profligacy, and worrying, just worrying himself sick about how it was going to be paid for in the future. Pffft. Turnbull is toast.
Have you ever heard such stupidity from an opposition leader?:
Does he really think without the stimulus package that sales would have not gone up or down?
Does he really think the increase on the month before is the only impact of the stimulus?
Seriously how the heck did this guy get so rich? I thought fools and their money were soon parted…
A few times today he’s tried riffing on the ’school children’ theme. He’s in danger of getting ‘emo-man’ germs.