So much going on at the moment that it can’t wait for the next opinion poll post:
• Brendan Nelson’s announcement he will vacate his blue-ribbon northern Sydney seat of Bradfield at the next election could initiate another of the classic preselection clashes for the NSW branch of the Liberal Party has become justly famous in recent years. Party sources quoted by Imre Salusinszky of The Australian say the preselection will be “the most open and hotly contested since Bronwyn Bishop succeeded Jim Carlton in the neighbouring seat of Mackellar in 1994”, with no clear front-runner and neither Right or Left controlling the seat. However, it is also “understood party bigwigs are intent on avoiding a repeat of the preselection debacle in 2007 in the southern Sydney seat of Cook”. Salusinszky’s report floated the possibility of his paper’s conservative pundit Janet Albrechtsen taking the field, but she promptly ruled herself out. Live possibilities apparently include another connection with The Australian in Tom Switzer, former opinion page editor and staffer to Nelson; Arthur Sinodinos, John Howard’s legendary chief-of-staff; Nick Farr-Jones, former rugby union international; Julian Leeser, executive director of the Menzies Research Centre; Geoff Selig, former state party president; Alister Henskens, barrister and local party office-holder; David Elliott, former Australian Hotels Association deputy chief executive; Paul Blanch, a sheep farmer who ran in Calare in 2004; and, as always, Adrienne Ryan, former Ku-ring-gail mayor and ex-wife of former police commissioner Peter Ryan. The Sydney Morning Herald reports we shouldn’t hold our breath waiting for a result:
A state executive meeting tomorrow is likely to discuss the timetable for the preselection race but because of a redistribution of seats in NSW, the final ballot will not be held until the end of the year. Because of that, most Liberal insiders believe the final candidate has yet to emerge.
• The Electoral Commissioner’s federal electoral determination has been published, confirming redistributions will need to occur to remove a seat from New South Wales and add one to Queensland. There seems to be some confusion abroard as to whether this scotches any chance of an election this year. As Antony Green explains, it is indeed the case that Queensland cannot be deprived of the seat which it is constitutionally entitled to at the next election now that the determination has been made, and it is indeed true that a redistribution process takes the better part of a year. However, the Electoral Act lays out a set of procedures for “mini-redistributions” in these circumstances, in which the two most or least heavily enrolled adjoining electorates in the state are either divided into three or merged into two. This has never happened before, and there would be obvious political difficulties in justifying an election held under such slapdash arrangements if it could possibly be avoided.
• Could Western Australia’s May 16 daylight saving referendum be the catalyst for a super Saturday of state by-elections? It certainly seems war clouds are gathering over the electorates of the two most powerful figures in the defeated Carpenter government: Jim McGinty, the member for Fremantle, and Alan Carpenter himself, who holds the neighbouring seat of Willagee (surely I have not so pleased the Lord that He would grant me neighbouring same-day by-elections in my own backyard?). According to Jenny D’Anger of the Fremantle Herald:
In the face of persistent rumours that veteran state Labor MP Jim McGinty is about to trigger a by-election for Fremantle by announcing his retirement, the Greens have called a war cabinet to talk tactics and anoint a candidate. It is all but certain they will choose South Fremantle’s Adele Carles, who came within a whisker of taking the seat at last year’s state election … Ms Carles says if the powerbroker is considering calling it quits he should do it so the by-election can coincide with the daylight saving referendum in May, saving thousands of dollars … The tom-toms have been beating for weeks that Fremantle mayor Peter Tagliaferri was the shoe-in as Labor’s choice to replace Mr McGinty. But more recently a senior union figure has emerged as a front-runner, which a Labor insider says had Mr Tagliaferri threatening to run as an independent (Word around the campfire is that this refers to Dave Kelly, one of McGinty’s successors at the LHMWU – PB). The Herald’s Labor source said Alan Carpenter also had to be taken into account: If the former premier decides to quit politics the union figure may prefer Mr Carpenter’s safe Willagee seat, which is not threatened by the Greens. This would leave Fremantle open for Mr Tagliaferri. But both Mr McGinty and Mr Tagliaferri are denying a by-election is imminent. “It’s no more than rumour-mongering,” Mr McGinty barked down the phone, adding he stood by the Herald’s report last November that he had no plans to go early but was unlikely to run again in 2013.
• Killjoy Harry Quick has gone back on his threat to run against Treasurer Michael Aird as Greens candidate in the looming upper house election for Derwent. According to the ABC, Quick says “his family has played second fiddle to his political aspirations for too long”. An earlier report said he was “understood to be ready withdraw his nomination due to family pressure to stay true to the Labor Party”.
1,270 Comments
I would love to see McGinty lose his own seat. Things are getting sweeter and sweeter for Barnett.
Oh I am sure there are exceptions, and people may change over time (generally drifting from Lab to Lib as they get older). But parent voting is one of the best ways to predict the voting patterns of children. It correlates very strongly, like somewhere between 80 – 90%
Maybe Milne ghost wrote the article?
Bree, first of all he wouldn’t be the one losing the seat, and secondly the only people who would then be likely to take the seat are the Greens, who would not be of much assistance to the Lib/Nats/Ind coalition.
What about Carps’ seat turning blue?
Misuse of donations by GetUp uncovered:
http://insidethemindoftim.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/getup-scamming-anti-censorship-freedom-fighters/
You’ve never been to Coolbellup, have you?
Finally this from wilson tuckey
I have seen it all-gnite
http://twitter.com/WilsonTuckey
GP, if I pulled an article from some leftie rag, you’d be all over the source and dismiss the article contents.
I rate the chances of either freo or willagee going blue as great as churchlands and cottesloe being won by the ALP. The real danger for the ALP ain’t blue, it’s green.
No 8
Obviously the article ruffled a few feathers – GetUp have since been scrambling to appear to be doing something with the $50,000 they have thus far amassed but with which they have achieved nothing.
Showson from previous thread
Wasn’t Kev’s dad a member of the Country Party?
GP, that isn’t a reply to my post.
Yep.
Alan Carpenter wasn’t actually considered a foregone conclusion when he first ran in Willagee in 1996, when the notional margin was only 2.3 per cent. That said, it’s been redistributed in Labor’s favour since then.
And with the purpoted staff cutbacks to Fremantle Hospital being leaked in the last week or so, would do any prospective Liberal candidate any favours.
Gary Bruce , realized you’d replied & had intended to reply earlier
• Gary Bruce
#1160
“Some people seem to forget that the voters at the last election had a chance to have Costello as their NEXT PM. ..The voters didn’t think much of Costello then did they?”
Gary Bruce
#1237 “If people really believed Costello was the next big thing in politics they would have voted for him. They didn’t. He wasn’t that popular…”
I did not believe Costello as a potential futre PM or his popularity/unpopularity affectd th 2007 result …and in my #1269 listed numerous vote defining issues I felt did affect th result , and none of them Costello’s unpopularity/ possible futre PM to be
• 1292
Gary Bruce
Posted Wednesday, February 18, 2009 at 5:06 pm | Permalink
Ron #1269 “You ar suggesting 2007 Electon voters in voting for Rudd were influensed by Costello potentialy becoming PM , and so it was a referendum on Costello as PM”
Gary Bruce “I don’t recall suggesting that. “
(Gary Bruce I read your #1160 & #1237 that way , & why I disagreed)
Ron “There were numerous vote defining matters of 2007”
Gary Bruce “Couldn’t agree more and the thought of having Costello as PM and/or being world’s best treasurer for most of the next term, keeping us all safe, did not persuade people to vote FOR them”
(Costello) neither for them Libs or against them Libs ..in voters minds is my thoughts
…there were W/C , CC , ‘its time’ , interst hikes etc in peoples minds as vote changers so disagree I do feel & agree however as said HAD Costello been Leader then voters pre existing antipathy for costello would then hav come into play as he would be then be deemed th actual Leader , and agree a bigger Labor vitory would have occured …so unpopularity was there indeed indeed by voters , but was not needed to be expressd seeing there choice was facing Howard as a reality , w/c , cc , rates rises etc decisions
Costello turns all protectionist again:
Nor Hilton or Hamilton Hill for that matter
I live in Booragoon, where even the beggars are right wing, and that was in Carpenter’s electorate in 1996, and I think so were substantial parts of Murdoch (the suburb) and Kardinya.
Different now.
I also have the dubious pleasure of having some South African uranium mining fanatic named Jensen as my Federal member (for Tangney).
Does anyone know if he is still alive?
ShowsOn:
Court told MP’s lover a ‘murder ’suspect’ 19/2/2009 – http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25076213-5006301,00.html
Yeah I saw him interviewed at parliament last week.
He is perhaps the biggest climate change denier in the federal parliament.
Crikey.
I’d certainly be more worried about Freo, than Willagee for the ALP. There were not a lot of votes in it last time around and for a while it looked like Carles had just scraped into second place on primary. I think there were 3-400 votes in it at the end???
What annoys me is that the issue that basically gave her a profile in the area (South Beach / ANI Foundry site remediation) turned out to be a complete beat up non-event. Clean up was well planned, safe, and over and done in 3 days once they got started with no contamination off site. Yet she and her bunch of nimbys had been jumping up and down for months about it.
If there is a by-election here soon, the issue will likely be shipping Lead Carbonate through Freo. It caused massive contamination in Esperance (bad thing this) but it was dumped loose in a shed and loaded by conveyor into the ships hold. Lots of dust generated that drifts. In Freo the proposal is that its double bagged, sealed in drums, then sealed in shipping containers, delivered to the port by rail. IF a train derailed, container, drums and bags split, then all they need to do is wet the site down while they clean up and there is no issue. And at the speed that trains like that actually move through Freo, worst case is just not going to happen.
I think Tagliaferri and Carles will each try and out-do the other in their opposition to it being transported out of Freo and it will get pretty silly. Carles came SO close last time that a lot of ALP voters who thought that the ALP would get their vote by preference even if they put the Greens first, got a fright and wont piss around this time. Instead of Green 1 ALP 2 they will switch to ALP 1 Green 2. Libs to lose ground in primary vote to both Greens and ALP.
I think the ALP should run Tagliaferri rather than someone completely unknown in Freo. Dave Kelly would do alright in Willagee i think, but would be a liability in Freo and hopefully the ALP have learned that they cannot take Freo for granted.
so I exaggerated a bit.
meh.
And my apologies ShowsOn, the Newland margin of 56.8%, the same as the 2006 statewide margin, was the margin pre-redistribution. Post-redistribution, it’s now 55.2%.
See page 17 of http://www.ecsa.sa.gov.au/apps/uploadedFiles/news/417/Final_report_-_2_Appendix_Section.pdf for the change and new margin for every seat.
I saw that our friends, Bree/GP/Glen etc, have raised the white flag on the hopelessness of the current crop of the Liberal leadership.
May i suggest to the comrades that future leader of the Liberal is not yet born. So a “Dalai Lama” style, nationwide/worldwide, search should be commenced immediately to identify the future leader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama#Searching_for_the_reincarnation
maybe the reincarnation of the old MING. If not, clone Howie.
PBs could help here by suggesting what the Libs should be looking for.
Shanahan this morning:
And I am sure Dennis will be there, feeding the chooks.
I still don’t get it about Costello. Why is he so revered? Why do even his enemies continue to say things like, “Oh, Peter can do whatever he wants. He’s earned the right…” and so on?
Costello’s “strong, silent type” act, coupled with the knowing smirk, the mysterious “I know something you don’t” performance is doing irreperable harm to his party, resetting them back to zero every time it crops up, which is often.
He is so clearly not the man to save the Liberals, no Winston Churchill in the wilderness. He’s a sook, with no guts for a fight who is causing trouble whenever he appears. What’s the fascination with the man among Libs?
Well BB, the fibs are firmly in King Midas mode in reverse, and everything they touch is turning to cr*p
Long may this continue.
Keep dreaming Mr Pyne. It’s never going to happen.
Also not sure whether this has been discussed last night, but a slight change to the Government front bench, with John Murphy resigning as Parliamentary Secretary and being replaced by Senator Mark Arbib.
It seems we’re out of the weird alternate universe of the past few weeks where the AIG and Labor were in an alliance against the Coalition.
Surely that’s the point? The powers of employers were increased dramatically previously and to rectify that you’re hardly going to increase them further. I want to see the Liberals try a new union fearmongering campaign. I think there might even be a boost to union numbers given the state of the economy and rising unemployment.
Also, tonight John Howard is to give the inaugrul Howard Lecture in Melbourne.
We’ve had 30 years of bloody Howard lectures, we don’t need any more.
ltep,
Labor’s catering faction got him.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/mps-beef-over-size-of-wifes-stroganoff/2008/09/17/1221330870702.html
Here’s a standard Skynews report of Costello playing prima donna again. The interesting thing is the cove in the brown jacket at the end is Andrew Bolt. No doubt yeterdays story about Costello staying in politics emerged from their friendly lunch.
http://player.video.news.com.au/theaustralian/#Ahup1X7Zb50yqmE84zszkU3yDfk9fEuC
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25070102-5000117,00.html
Court told MP’s lover a ‘murder ’suspect’
William, this is Adelaide remember where all sorts of odd things happen, Trish Draper’s office was caught up in a libel action a couple of years ago, some notices to the media were alleged to have been sent from there, the notices claimed a couple of state pollies and two high ranking policemen were pedophiles, all very untrue, i personally know one of the accused cops, Trish Draper denied any knowledge of them and said her office was used without permission … SNIP: Rest of comment removed due to legal concerns – The Management.
And if I were you William, I’d remove that Judith barnes post before cascading libel writs go any further. That last sentence is a very serious claim that shouldn’t be made without evidence.
No-one seems to be mentioning Julian Leeser’s background with the pro-monarchy side of the Republic referendum. Not sure Malcolm’s going to want to see him rewarded with a plum safe seat.
Desperate times call for desperate measures…
Liberals are well-known for a messiah complex. It’s how they come to lie on their backs while being walked over by “strong leaders”.
The allegation that Trish Draper’s lover was a murder suspect was published in the SMH just before the 1994 election but couldn’t be used in SA for legal reasons. Backed by Family First, Draper narrowly won that election from Tony Zappia, who finally made it in Makin in 1997.
Now Draper’s the Liberal hope in the critical seat of Newland in next year’s SA election.
ShowsOn, on the last thread you put a list of defectors/party changers. You had Mia Handshin in there as Libs to Labor. Where is her link to the Libs, I am curiosu about where she has come from. My undertstanding is that she has only ever been a memeber of the ALP. please enlighten us.
Sounds like a very poor candidate choice to me. Quite apart from the above matters, she was no more than a “Howard pot-plant” the whole time she was in Canberra.
Greensborough Growler (#36)
Your example of Andrew Bolt clearly ambling along with Peter Costello makes me shake my head. Does he not realise that it takes the edge of his political analysis? Maybe he doesn’t know, doesn’t care or doesn’t claim to be independent but it makes it difficult to see his writings as not much more than political partisan rants. It’s one thing to share similar views as a political party but to jump into bed with them as well doesn’t really help the cause in my opinion.
Another glaring example was of Janet Albrechtsen’s job application letter for Liberal Party candidature for the Federal Seat of Bradfield in The Australian yesterday (“Liberal renewal starts with Bradfield”). Indeed I was impressed with her cross promotion of The Australian when she cited her colleague’s ( Imre Salusinszky) article – though I noticed she couldn’t bring herself to just say that “…Imre put my name foreword as a possible candidate too…”. Rather she listed almost every other name except her’s… Like a man donning a dress and high heels but refusing to wear lipstick incase some one notices… Bazar!
The SA Libs should withdraw Draper’s endorsement as quickly and quietly as possible as this ‘problem’ is going to blow up.
According to this article, Trish Drapers “friend” considers Howard & Costello as “friends & acquaintances” the plot thickens.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25067431-5006301,00.html
Antony @ 38,
There was fairly comprehensive coverage of what JB said in that last sentence, barring actual references to JB herself which is her own personal experience/opinion.
By the way, thanks for your reply but I was more suggesting commentary similar to Morris, Henderson type commentary. I can very well understand any reluctance to get involved in appearances such as you described.
There is nothing worse as far as I am concerned than to watch two pollies trying to talk over the top of each other and totally ignore the questions posed by the mediator. Current Affairs producers seem to like the confrontational type interview but I think they are appalling and an insult to the viewers intelligence.
I do though like considered, intelligent, balanced analysis which was what I was suggesting in your case in that previous post. Cheers, Scorpio.
It may be JB’s personal experience, but if I were William, I still wouldn’t publish it in a blog. There’s an accusation of intent there.
And another hint for William about his Queensland election guide. Be very cautious with anything you say about Bundaberg Hospital. There’s a trial underway.
Peter Costello’s tactics are to go to the backbench and lobby for the Leadership. Oh hang on he is about 5 years too late.
Costello: I’m not going anywhere
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25076280-5007133,00.html
49 – EXCELLENT!!!
#49
Bree, you must be delighted that the coalition’s most talented member of parliament is sticking around.
As long as Turnbull remains in parliament, Wayne Swan will look smart. It will be totally different with Costello as leader, I guarantee it.
Great news. This is going to be hilarious for poor Tip.
Joe Hockey’s Howardesq style comment about Australians never being better off even with the GFC won’t go down too well with a lot of people, especially those in Property Investment Trusts.
And the Coalition strategy of blaming Rudd for the freezing of funds in those Institutions gets shot out of the water when the real reason is that they are bleeding funds at a concerning rate and couldn’t meet thowse withdraw2als without going insolvent.
http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,28323,25076473-5013953,00.html
you bluddy beauty
I think costello has decided to finish off those (in his opinion) who thwarted his leadership ambitions.
ie Effectively the remnants of Howards cabinet.
A shadow minister for hammocks?
I suspect Turnbull will go nowhere as well, leader or not. Looks like Swan is going to look good for sometime then.
I know YOU think Costello is the bees knees but can you provide any empirical evidence that suggests the rest of Australia thinks so as well? I won’t hold my breath waiting for the evidence to appear here.
Antony theres nothing there that wasnt in the papers and as for the personal phone call major crime has it on their records, they came out and took a sworn report, i havnt given any details about the contents of the phone call to me because they were far more serious than what was in the papers, i get nutter groups try to use me at times,they all get a thanks but no thanks.
Even Menzies was still alive, he would endorse Costello over Turnbull.
Gary my evidence is:
Essential Research-preferred Liberal leader
Costello 37%
Turnbull 26%
Milne and bolta are all the evidence one needs.Those bastions of virtue and truth would never lead us,the ‘umble public astray.
Surely you know that gary
58 Bree – Means absolutely nothing.
Bree,
Yeah, I think people would take a lot of notice of a 115 year old former Pollie.
Ahhh we know what happens when Allbull gives his 100% support for someone…
Bishop lasted 1 more day…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25077068-601,00.html
Alan Stockdale’s job is in danger, Turnbull has just given him his full support
59 Bree – Is that the best you can do? How do these figures show that the rest of Australia think Costello is the bees knees?
Those figures show one thing only. Costello is favoured over Turnbull by only 37% of the population (accepting that the figures are right and I assume you do otherwise you wouldn’t be using them as evidence), which is nowhere near a majority of the voting population. In fact the “don’t knows” almost match Costello’s figures. If anything these figures highlight Costello’s lack of popularity.
Judith, so you are saying it is absolutely on the record that libelous claims were made against people because certain police investigated a politican, or is that an accusation? And I don’t expect you to respond to that. I have no idea whether what you say is true or not, and neither will whoever mediates this blog. But in the past Crikey, its former owner Stephen Mayne, and even William himself as a blog publisher, have ended up with libel cases. Poor old William’s was entirely peripheral but still cost him money to defend. Which is why I think he should be cautious, and why anyone posting on this blog should be mindful of, what a can of worms cases like those in South Australia can become.
I’ve been thinking all week that Bree was Gandalf’s horse, but when I look it up I find that Bree was actually a talking horse in one of the Narnia books. Gandalf’s horse was of course Shadowfax.
And Turnbull’s numbers were better than Nelson. Fat lot of good that did. Try again.
Bree was the town where Frodo (or Mr Underhill) met Strider/Aragorn.
at the Prancing Pony IIRC. That would have been a much more appropriate nickname for Bree to have used I think
And they met in the Prancing Pony, so there is an equine link there after all.
Ah, I knew there was a Tolkien connection somewhere in the recesses of my memory. But I read the Narnia books long before I read Tolkien. The name Bree in “The Horse and His Boy” is actually short for Breehy-hinny-brinny-hoohy-hah.
Nicole Chettle just told me to have a great day! My day is complete!
Sky news reports that the AI Group is saying the Govt doesn’t have a mandate to implement sweeping changes to the nation’s workplace laws.
and they’re still there!
Well what the heck was “Your Rights at Work” all about then? Not to mention the election that followed. There are still YRAW signs at the top of power poles opposite our Federal (Lib) members house. She bitched about the union using electric company trucks to put them up so high at the time
The only reason I can think of for this tactic from the AIG is to con X & Fielding into siding with the Coalition and voting the bill down in the senate. They have form (voted down the horse industry bill and the circus over the $42bil) X would do anything to get his face in the paper and Fielding just isn’t smart enough to know when he’s being used.
http://www.skynews.com.au/business/article.aspx?id=304212
Warnings of libelous claims, pedophiles, wizards, magic horses and hobbits. It’s a psephological maaaad house
AIG are full of it
I wonder where they were when Howard was making sweeping changes to the nation’s workplace laws? He didn’t even take it to an election. Pffft.
Antony, published in the papers and been through court, the pedophilia claims were made against the two investigating policemen who were entirely innocent as were the pollies, all four were cleared of wrongdoing, as for the phone call to me you may have noted i didnt give any details and it is on record at major crime, there is nothing in my blog that isnt on public record except the phone call, i’m well known to major crime and i waste no time contacting them if at times needed as with the phone call or the latest nutter contacting me though they are getting fewer and further between nowadays
If Menzies was still alive he’d be saying “Vote Labor.”
He’d also ask “What have they done to my party?!”
John Howard has given Shannahan a preview of his speech tonight in Melbourne. I’m not quite sure Howard realises the potential impacts that it could have.
One is that he undermines Turnbull’s/Bishop’s/Hockey’s contention that the GFC is not the boogie man being portrayed by Rudd (and most economic commentators and Global media sources), and the other is Howard accuses Rudd of contradiction and promptly contradicts his own position.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25075647-5013871,00.html
And I still think you made an unbacked accusation of intent in the earlier post, and if you’ve been through that process, I’m sure you’d understand why anyone involved in running this blog wants to get involved.
would want to be involved i meant
aaaggghhh – i still mean wouldn;t
Sorry, this is the quote which I meant to insert after my lead-in paragraph.
John Howard has given Shannahan a preview of his speech tonight in Melbourne. I’m not quite sure Howard realises the potential impacts that it could have.
One is that he undermines Turnbull’s/Bishop’s/Hockey’s contention that the GFC is not the boogie man being portrayed by Rudd (and most economic commentators and Global media sources), and the other is Howard accuses Rudd of contradiction and promptly contradicts his own position.
If Menzies were alive, John Howard wouldn’t be.
88 – umm
howard would be still pumping petrol
JB, I’ve gone with Antony and snipped the concluding part of your original comment. The problem is that you ascribed a particular motivation for persons’ actions, which is obviously not “on public record”. I’d be more comfortable if we moved along now, thanks.
Are you happy with being described as “Poor old William”?!
Messed it up again. Quote here!
Apologies to those whose comments were stuck in moderation.
WB,AIC and AG
last night discussion was held re the Monarchs actual powers.
some confusion arose as to what they were and where they were applicable.
Could one of the esteemed psephological troika please direct me to where i might get a definitive answer.
pretty please.
thank you
What about those of us whose comments were stuck in immoderation?
Like anyone is listening to Howard anyway…
Dario, rusted Libs will, they think Rudd conned the Australian people and that Howard was the better choice, and that Costello would have been electorally feasible as the next PM to take over from Howard in the current term of parliament.
Ahh, Liberals. So deluded, so funny.
This will be popular, especially coming from “people skills”
http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2009/02/19/Opposition_backflips_on_pension_increase
no probs William though that was evidence in court, as you know most of my blogs are fairly inoffensive but i dont mind you deleting any you’re not comfortable with, as you know i’m very close to members of major crime so i’m usually very careful of what i write or say, i have to be to retain their trust, i do try to be honest here, as i’m under my real name i have to be.
Third time’s the charm scorpio
Thanks to Bree for 52 and 55.
For once I am delighted to agree with someone of the Liberal mindset. I don’t care how long it takes, even if the coalition has to spend another decade in opposition, I hope Costello hangs in there till he gets the party leadership. He shouldn’t give up. Sure there might be a few difference’s between Costello’s band of merry men and the Sydney Liberal clique. But the grace with which the Liberals will amicably resolve those differences will serve as an inspiration to voters everywhere.
Gusface, you want a definitive answer on matters of constitutional law under the Westminster system of undefined reserve powers? Reminds me of the Union of Philosphers demanding rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty. I don’t know about Adam and co, but my knowlegde of the subject comes from decades of reading, which means you just google a subject and are able to sieve out the important bits thanks to your experience.
I still say that the report on Australia becoming a republic, done by the committee headed by Malcolm Turnbull and appointed by Keating, is as good a starting point as any. Very readable, and good summaries of other republican systems.
I would also recommend “The makers and the breakers : the Governor-General and the Senate vs the Constitution” by Richard Hall & John Iremonger, published after the 1975 ‘incident’. It reviewed a lot of the constitutional issues about the Senate and the G-G, and also plowed through the debates on the matter in the 1890s Federation conventions. The authors had a particular view that the Senate should not block supply, and that Kerr should not have done what he did, but the arguments about the meaning, weaknesses and strengths of the constitution and its conventions are well set out without getting bogged down in detail like to many constitutional law books.
100 – A clear case of opposition for opposition sake. The Crosby/Textor strategy in full swing. Amazing.
I particularly remember excerpts in that book from the 1890s debates where colonial politicians wanted to provide greater clarity on the roll of the G-G. Barton and other constitutional lawyers leading the debate basically said that if powers were defined in the constitution, the British would laugh and say these colonials don’t understand constitutional law.
And as many a good historian has pointed out, the whole debate might have been different if it had occurred after the House of Lords blocked Lloyd George’s budget in 1909.
To ShowsOn, on the last thread you put a list of defectors/party changers. You had Mia Handshin in there as Libs to Labor. Where is her link to the Libs, I am curiosu about where she has come from. My undertstanding is that she has only ever been a memeber of the ALP. please enlighten us.
105 – Agreed, It’s so blatant it takes the breath away.
Gusface, I will attempt to answer your question shortly.
from the Australian letters blog, Cossie doesnt seem to be as popular as his ego is telling him, most blogs are rather scathing of the coalitions main hope.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/letters/index.php/theaustralian/comments/treat_public_office_as_the_privilege_it_is/
I should add on that. Barton and other leaders of the debate knew that any constitution had to first go through the Westminster Parliament as a UK Act before it became the Australian Constitution. They didn’t want a debate with UK politicians about those sorts of issues. In the end Barton headed off an attempt by British business interests to make the Privy Council the final place of appeal for High Court cases.
Gusface @ 96,
Wiki covers the Head of State issue very comprehensively here. It conclusively outlines the Monarch as HoS and Powers/Reserve Powers and role of GG’s etc.
I think a few people last night might have benefited from a read. This was all thrashed out months ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_State
I can’t believe the pension backflip. They must think continued support would undermine their opposition to the fisculus package, but the politics of continued support would be pretty easy. The polls indicate that the coalition has lost the support of most of their traditional supporters. Do they want to lose pensioners too? It just looks idiotic.
Of course Judith. 59% of those exit polled at the election did not want Costello as PM. Since then, his presence has continuously destabilised his party, and his i’m not staying but i’m not going waiting in the wings stance is only further taking away any electoral appeal he had left. If he thinks he can do this for another year and then take the top job and get elected, he has rocks in his head.
This message also applies to Bree and the other Liberal fanbois.
I guess they figure that the majority of pensioners are rusted ons and won’t be lost to them no matter what they do. They are hoping the economic situation will worsen, justifying their claims of economic ‘restraint’. It’s certainly a gamble.
GP (from the previous thread)
It won’t happen, they’ve been trained way way too well
…… Grandpa and Grandma have also worked on them 
Grattan (or the sub-ed) showing a bit of Keatingesque humour with this headline in the Age
Triton @ 113,
Their internal polling has probably confirmed what is happening in the main stream polls. That they are bleeding pensioner/senior votes badly.
Uncle Kevvie from Queensland has given them a nice little pick-up with the promise of more to come.
It’s just a little “payback” for their disloyalty. A little smack and get back in line where you belong or else we will move to take some of your pokie money away from you and you will have to go back to eating cat food again.
A stripping offence if ever I heard one
#115 Dario
But they can only get mileage out of opposing a pension increase by hammering the government with it when the economy worsens, which would be indirectly kicking pensioners all the way to the next election. There might be plenty of rusted-on pensioners, but they’d lose plenty as well. I doubt that Rudd would have used their support of a pension increase against them, because that would be seen to be kicking pensioners too, and everyone agrees that the pension is too low. A lot to lose and little to gain is how it looks to me.
#118 scorpio
That sounds like a rather novel way to regain their support. I’d even call it courageous.
Bree @ 61,
You won’t catch Fraser endorsing either man
….. some former party leaders have seen the light 
I disagree. Rudd would definitely use it if they voted with the Government.
She told me she was a fully paid up Young Liberal in her teenage years.
Gusface
The question of the Queen of Australia’s powers is not a psephological one, so William, Antony and I are not necessarily any more expert than anyone else on this question (unless William or Antony has a degree in constitutional law that I’m unaware of). I’m not a constitutional lawyer, but I am a historian, and I have read a fair amount about this over the years. This is my best attempt at a brief historical summary of the issue.
Since the UK has no written constitution, the Queen in the UK is, in theory, an absolute monarch. But over the centuries a web of conventions has developed by which the Queen *acts as if* she were a constitutional monarch. She no longer taxes without the consent of parliament, declares war, dismisses ministers, dissolves parliament or refuses assent to laws, etc – although she retains all these powers in theory. Above all, she *acts only on the advice of ministers.* This is the essence of the Westminster system. It operates by informal rules, on the basis of convention, mutual trust and shared values.
In Australia, however, we have a written constitution, to which Queen Victoria gave her assent in 1900. As a result, the Queen of Australia is a constitutional monarch in a sense that the Queen of the UK is not. She holds her Australian throne not by divine right, but by the consent of the Australian people, and her status in Australia is *as specified in the Constitution*, no more and no less. The Queen does not and cannot act in Australia as she acts in the UK.
Section 1 of the Constitution says: “The legislative power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a Federal Parliament, which shall consist of the Queen, a Senate, and a House of Representatives…”
This makes it clear that the Queen is Australia’s head of state – she stands at the pinnacle of the constitutional system. No legislation is possible without her, any more than it is possible without the House of Reps or the Senate.
Section 2, however, says: “A Governor-General appointed by the Queen shall be Her Majesty’s representative in the Commonwealth, and shall have and may exercise in the Commonwealth during the Queen’s pleasure, but subject to this Constitution, such powers and functions of the Queen as Her Majesty may be pleased to assign to him.”
This makes it clear that all the Queen’s powers under the Constitution are to be exercised in her name by the GG. Since the Constitution is now a “stand alone” document which cannot be repealed or amended by the UK Parliament, this means that the Queen has permanently and irrevocably ceded all her Australian powers to the GG. The only power she retains is to appoint the GG, but since by convention she acts only on the advice of her Australian PM, she does not really exercise this power either.
Thus the GG in every way *acts* as Australia’s head of state, although it is clear from s1 that she is not in fact a head of state, only the representative of the head of state. The GG takes an oath of allegiance to the Queen, which she would not do if she were herself the head of state – a head of state cannot owe an allegiance to another head of state.
As I said, the central principle of the Westminster system is the convention that the Queen acts only on the advice of ministers. In Australia, in practice, what this means is what I said last night: The GG (or a state governor) must always act on the advice of a PM (or a premier) who commands the support of the lower house of the parliament, and must not act without such advice. That was the convention that Kerr violated in 1975. He had no right to make an independent judgement about the Senate supply situation, no right to conspire with Fraser, and no right to dismiss a PM who had the support of the House of Reps. If Kerr genuinely believed that Whitlam was acting illegally or improperly, his duty was to *advise* Whitlam that this was his view, and then, if Whitlam continued to act in such a manner, to threaten to resign and state publicly why he had done so. The resignation of a GG in such circumstances would be a death blow to most governments, and the threat to resign a powerful deterrent.
It follows from the above, however, that a GG or Governor *does* have the right to act if there is no PM or Premier who commands the support of the majority of a lower house. This right is what is generally referred to as the reserve powers.
If an election produces a hung parliament, for example, the GG has the right to consult party leaders and to help devise a solution which will create a stable government. Thus in 1989, when Robin Gray’s Liberal government in Tasmania lost its majority, the Governor refused his request for an immediate second election, since it was his view that alternate government, a Labor-Greens coalition, could be formed.
If a PM loses a vote of confidence in the Reps, and does not immediately resign, the GG has the right to decline to take his advice, and the right to terminate his commission.
There is a grey area when a PM *has* lost the confidence of the House but has *not* lost a confidence motion. This was the situation that confronted Sir Walter Campbell in 1987, when Joh Bjelke-Petersen went mad in office and tried to dismiss his entire Cabinet to prevent them deposing him as leader. Campbell *formed the independent view* that Bjelke-Petersen no longer had the support of his colleagues and declined his request, and eventually persuaded him to resign. If Bjelke-Petersen had refused to resign, Campbell would then have been entitled to dismiss him.
In relation to the republic debate, therefore, the issue of the powers of the Queen is a red herring. The Queen has no power to act independently in regard to Australia. She cannot dismiss an Australian PM, or even a GG once appointed. It’s true that in 1953 the Parliament passed an Act allowing the Queen to exercise her powers when she was personally present in Australia, but I suspect the High Court would now find that Act to be unconstitutional, since it appears to conflict with s2 of the Constitution. In any case neither the Queen nor any conceivable Australian government would attempt today to put that Act into effect except possibly for a purely ceremonial function. The Queen has not personally opened Parliament since 1977 and I doubt any monarch will ever do so again.
There are two issues in all of this for the republic debate:
1. how to transfer the powers now exercised by the GG to a President. This can only be done by referendum.
2. how to choose or elect that President. This could be done by referendum, but it could also be done by legislation. It would be possible to have a referendum which simply said that “all the powers assigned to the Queen in the Constitution shall be assigned to the President of the Commonwealth of Australia, that person to be chosen by a method to be prescribed by the Parliament.”
Postscript: I actually have a Cunning Plan to solve the republic problem. The Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900 says: “The provisions of this Act referring to the Queen shall extend to Her Majesty’s heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom.” This is generally taken to mean that Australia is bound by the UK law of succession to the throne: when the Queen dies, the Prince of Wales will succeed her as King of Australia. *However* – the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act is an act of the UK Parliament, not the Australian Parliament. The Constitution itself is silent on the issue of succession. Since Australia now has full legislative independence from the UK, it is not bound by any UK law. The Australian Parliament now has the power to legislate in a way which overrides the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act. It is thus open to the Parliament to legislate as follows: “Upon the death of HM Queen Elizabeth II, her heir and successor as Sovereign of Australia shall be the President of the Commonwealth of Australia, and all references in the Constitution to the Queen shall be taken as references to the President of the Commonwealth of Australia.” Australia would thus become a republic without a referendum. I’m surprised no-one has thought of this before, and if it happens I expect full credit for thinking of it.
ShowsOn Post 123…Thats the funniest thing I have ever heard. I know Mia quite well, and can assure you she has never been a paid up member of any other political party other than the ALP…and Whats worse you claim the Young Libs….The greens or democrats would be far more believable although still untrue…thankyou for brightening up my afternoon with that.
I thought the constitution was at the pinnacle of the system? Surely that must be the case if – as you suggest – the constitution regulates the powers of the monarch?
It also seems to imply that the Queen could sack the Governor General whenever she wants. “and shall have and may exercise in the Commonwealth _during the Queen’s pleasure_”
Choosing not to exercise a power seems to me to be substantially different from not having the power.
I worry that since so much of our system is conventions, that that may some day lead to more problems like 1975. Of course you can’t write down every possible event of a system of government. But I wish we had a lot more written down than we do.
Sure, but he DID IT, so by definition one of the reserve powers of the G.G. is the right to sack the P.M. Breaking a convention isn’t the same as breaking the law. If it was, then Whitlam could’ve challenged his dismissal in the high court on grounds that it was unconstitutional.
Is Bolts’ arithmetic faulty here? These calculations seem out of whack even to Turnbulls. It doesn’t look right to me.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25070102-5000117,00.html
Well that is what she told me. Maybe she meant it as a joke, and I mistakenly took it seriously? She was, let’s say, somewhat tired and emotional at the time.
I hope she runs again next time.
Any estimate of job creation has to be compared to estimates of how many jobs would’ve been lost if certain actions weren’t taken.
This clearly explained by Treasury during the senate committee. Bolta just seems to be arguing from personal incredulity (I don’t believe it so it isn’t true).
Adam: Actually I suggested the same last night, with the slight difference that Liz.au’s heirs would be all Aust. citizens (co-monarchs). A regicite could be used to appoint a GG.
If it was said I am sure it was meant as a joke, and it must have been funny coz i am still laughing about it…
Cheers thanks for the clarification.
And given the turmoil created by Pyne’s elevation to manager of opposition business, think of the problems she could have saved the Liberal Party had she defeated him in Sturt!
The obvious ex labor-ite missed is Costello. Apparently he flirted with Labor in his Monash Uni student days. There is a photo of his “alleged” application to join the Monash Labor Club that floats around the web from time to time.
1. The Constitution is not a person.
2. I agree that these things should not be left to convention. I am in favour of a republic with the reserve powers codified.
3. You could make a good case that Kerr acted illegally in 1975, but since the Chief Justice incited him to act as he did there wasn’t much point in trying to challenge his actions in the Barwick court. Courts are in any case rightly reluctant to get involved in the political process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Youngcostello.png
I don’t think it will happen there is like a structural deficit in Sturt. Handshin got 10% swings at the north of the electorate, and still lost. I worked for her at Turramurra, the biggest booth where the swing was I think 9%, but that still wasn’t enough given the strong Liberal booths at the southern end.
She would probably win Boothby, but it seems she would prefer representing the area where she grew up.
Thank God Mia Handshin turns out not to have been a Liberal in the past! I was heartbroken for a while there.
And how does one meet Ms Handshin while she is “tired and emotional”, ShowsOn?
Agree – and probably would have won.
Could anyone joke about being a Young Liberal?
I think we are confusing Handshin with Nicole Cornes, who was a self-professed ex-Liberal voter.
Cory Bernardi sacked for Pyne comment
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25077846-5006301,00.html
Who said it was?
Well, you can’t COMPLETELY codify everything can you? That’s what they seem to try to do in the U.S. If an anomaly of some sort is found, they put through amendments.
But I think there should be a section defining the Prime Minister:
“The Prime Minister is the leader of the party or coalition of parties that has the confidence of the House of Representatives”
And there should be a mechanism for resolving a blocking of supply bills, without the need for an election. For example a joint sitting of both houses. If the supply bills are blocked say 3 or 4 times.
That would’ve been a good time for it.
Go to her election night party.
Hopefully Turnbull sacked him for not knowing who Austraila’s Head of State is.
Adam,
Thanks for 135.
Bernardi is still on today’s list as Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Disabilities, Carers and the Voluntary Sector
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25077846-5006301,00.html
Whoa!! I’ve always loved the SA Liberal division. It’s so full of just that, division.
I wonder how long after it becomes official that Cory Bernardi has been sacked for his Wiki entry to be updated.
Most Wiki pages have been updated within minutes of changes like this. I bet in most cases the amendments are not made by Libs.
Such a plan to legislate a republic may run into trouble with the wording of the schedule which implies/says that the King or Queen of the United Kingdom is who is referred to as Queen in the Constitution.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Australia_Constitution_Act#Schedule
For Cory watchers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Bernardi
The new shadow ministry list was circulated an hour ago and Bernardi is still on it.
They’re quick!
I dealt directly with that point in my post earlier.
So any other people who defected between Labor and Liberal, or at least come from Liberal or Labor backgrounds?
Albanese alleged that Turnbull once asked Keating to make him an ALP Senator. Has this allegation been proved or disproved?
Billy Hughes
Bree says she can remember seeing it mentioned on the cover of a Sydney paper. It was Graham Richardson’s old seat.
The rattiest of all rats.
Joe Lyons
I disagree. The Constitution cannot be amended without a referendum and I am sure that there are people and organisations who would bring to court a challenge to a legislated republic.
They could only do so by arguing that Australia is still bound by legislation of the UK Parliament. That would be a hard case to make.
I agree. I can’t see how the Australian parliament can amend an act of the U.K. parliament.
And even if they could amend the act, does that imply amending the constitution itself? Isn’t the constitution more than just another act because of Section 128?
And such a challenge would in my opinion win.
She saw it reported at the time?
Wow, Pyne is such a little b!tch, heres someone who plays the man instead of the ball the whole time, and then uses his moderate votes to force a resignation when he’s on the end of it…Soft Pyne Soft.
If the Bernardi thing is true this will be the start of lots more infighting.
Not with succession legislation because of the wording of the Schedule.
They would not be amending it. They would be over-riding it.
No. As I carefully explained, the Constitution of Australia Constitution Act 1900 is not part of the Constitution. It is merely the package the Constitution came in, now discarded.
Adam and antony
thank you for the links and follow ups
There is no “schedule.” There is only the Constitution, which says nothing about the succession.
In the 1950’s Labor hero Gough Whitlam was a member of the Liberal Party Likewise Don Dunstan was a member of the Liberal Party before joining Labor and later becoming Premier. Someone has already mentioned Billy Hughes and then there was Joe Lyons both in non-labor parties that were forerunners to todays Liberal Party. The defections between Labor and Liberal often remind us of how Australia would be a one party state without that other third main party to aid variety our Country to National Party.
The schedule is part of the Constitution.
Oops “the Constitution of Australia Constitution Act 1900″ = “the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900″
]In the 1950’s Labor hero Gough Whitlam was a member of the Liberal Party ]
Totally untrue. Whitlam joined the ALP in 1944.
I have the Constitution open in front of me. There is no “schedule”.
Eric Abetz on the Libs emission trading plan(s) on PM Agenda in 15 minutes
Dunstan was an LCL supporter as a teenager, but not actually a member. He was an ALP supporter by the time he was 18.
This is her post from the previous thread:
Maybe it was just another part of her anti-Turnbull rant.
I don’t understand how you can make a new constitutional act that automatically overrides the old one. Surely this would just result in a massive dispute, and would be a harder way to amend the constitution than just using ye old Section 128. The Liberals would never support such a move.
Woah, I’ve never heard this before!
That seems unlikely. Plus, the Nats vote the same as the Liberals when they are in government, so they are just a sub-faction of the Liberals.
You’re forgetting Julian McGauran.
In 1900 Australia was part of the British Empire. The UK Parliament legislated to bring the Constitution into effect. That Act was the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900. It was not then and is not now part of the Constitution. It was and is an Act of the UK Parliament, and since Australia is no longer part of the British Empire it is not binding on Australia if we choose to legislate otherwise. Is that clear?
And Peter Slipper.
That’s because it’s untrue.
Can the Libs run a chook raffle at the moment?
http://img104.exs.cx/img104/6713/chook9pd.jpg
I hope Hockey tries to argue this tonight on Q & A
:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2495975.htm?section=australia
Almost had me crash the car when I heard it. After 11 years of doing nothing the Libs want to make that point! The biggest infrastructure work they ever planned was scrapped before it got off the ground namely, the extension to the dining room at John and Janet Bucket’s harbour side residence
Somethings funny is happening with the Cory Bernardi rumour/story. The Tiser is reporting it as unverified fact about to be announced. But the OO hasn’t linked the story at all. The OO will normally just link a national Tiser story to keep up to date with breaking news but they haven’t this time.
I bet the Lib Right is making a few phone calls to shut it up and reverse the decision so they don’t want their press officers at the OO spreading it.
They did spend $200 million on the Allice to Darwin railway. But will that thing ever make money?
Surely it will be all out war if it happens. In the SMH there is a story about how annoyed Abbott is for not becoming Manager of Government Business. The Right is getting annoyed that Turnbull is giving out all the plum jobs in the House to wets.
Hockey still doesn’t grasp the meaning of the word “stimulus”. Massive infrastructure projects have a long lead time. They don’t stimulate spending NOW.
Gillard to announce new jobs plan tonight:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25077957-601,00.html
I read a report last week saying ti could cost between $1 – $2 billion.
Most people don’t seem to realise this. So it is good politics (but dumb economics) to base an attack on this misunderstanding.
SMH have it now
I’m not sure that the privilege of being ridiculed by Albanese every day is what I’d call a “plum job.” Can we imagine the fun Albo will have with Pyne?
SKY has just confirmed the Bernardi story
True ShowsOn. One can but dream of the infrastructure they could have built had they not frittered away billions in pre election tax cuts.
ShowsOn @ 186
I’m sure Abbott would be quite peeved at not getting Manager Of Government Business, considering the fact that the Coalition got voted out of Government 15 months ago
ShowsOn
There clearly is a huge fight for the corrupted, blackened, evil, limpid disaster that is the Liberal Party’s soul. The dry’s have had enough of Turnbull’s shift to rebuild the Party in his own image. It keeps spilling into the media and li looks like getting better and better.
Sky Noos has the Bernardi story as Breaking News.
It’s in the OO now. The last sentence doesn’t bode too well does it!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25078153-601,00.html
The Constitution does have a schedule. It is mentioned in section 42 and is at the end after section 128.
Oh mercy! Who needs reality TV when you’ve got the Federal Libs to watch. Is it possible for a political party to be awarded “The Biggest Loser” medal?
#182
is that Julie Bishop?
What a stupid, petty, trivial, bitchy, undisciplined remark to make. Must be something personal
I’m quite looking forward to it!
But seriously, Pyne was justice shadow (essentially junior to the shadow attorney general) under Nelson. Turnbull gave him Education (a shadow cabinet portfolio) and now M.O.B. That is pretty good going in a short space of time, and is pretty obvious that he is trying to piss people like Tonys Smith & Abbot off.
I agree. The federal government could’ve paid for a de-sal plant in every state that needed it, freeing them up to spend hundreds of millions more on schools and hospitals instead.
LOL! This is a funny mistake, because initially I wrote “Leader of the House”.
Yeah I agree. But I have some sympathy for the bloke, if I was trying to buy my way to becoming P.M., I’d want everything my way too.
Did they get it off the AdelaideNow website?
Turnbull: I’m paying for this party, and I get to choose the drink-waiters, OK?
Mao, that was supposed to be Christopher!!!
Oh this is the saddest Pyne related thing I’ve ever heard!
The Wet Liberals on the Tiser site have gone into meltdown. Evidently, the Liberal Party will never win another election now that it has lost it’s best Senator. We’re gonna get an awful load of hubris to eat at some stage but how much worse can it get for the Libs?
Comments on Costello on PM Agenda say he won’t “leave Parliament period end of sentance” until he is “satisfied” with the person to succeed him in Higgins and that he won’t be happy unless that person is “cabinet level and/or PM material” and that Costello isn’t happy with those prospects at present so he isn’t going anywhere ….. that came from Glen Milne btw.
He must have been a very popular boy at St Ignatius’
It’s a pretty sick party when he’s the best they can do. And they are right, he had the #1 spot on the ticket!
That rules out gutless Kroger running for spineless Costello’s seat.
Peter Costello being done up as for the opening of the 2031 Parliament as first Liberal PM since John Howard back in 2007. He has done very well. No, it wasn’t Julie Bishop that is doing the touch-up.
http://sean-henry.us/802/images/grace.jpg
Goodness, he’s going to be the oldest ever MP if he’s waiting for someone of PM material to come along because, as we all know, that person hasn’t even been born.
WOW Costello leading in a poll other than for Higgins!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22073824-5013404,00.html
Unfortunately for him the question is “Who’s doing most damage: Turnbull or Costello?”
are the libs committing particide.
I hope so.
Dont let Bree see that
Not that I put much faith in online polls, but you do have to laugh…
And such impartial questions, too. Where is “Turnbull, for being a pompous, irresponsible, reckless, dangerous, selfish, megalomaniac?”
What’s that Victorian state seat that should be Liberal held, but the Liberal candidates try to buy it with thousands of dollars worth of advertising, so it has been Labor since 1999?
Pensions review – single pension rate should be lifted from 59% – 66% of couple rate (~$35 increase).
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25075645-5013871,00.html
Sky has Bernardi on the phone as I type this ….
Bernardi stands by his comments and will not retract them. However, he refuses to confirm that this individual is Pyne and claims that the media put those words into his mouth. He said the incident in question took place 14 years ago and he’s carried the memories with him that long.
[Mr Abbott today told 2GB radio if the Government were to raise the pension in the current economic circumstances, it would amount to an "enormous hit on the revenue".
"I think something like this would need to be considered very carefully and very cautiously," he said.
"I think that at least in the short term a better way of proceeding might be to look at those pensioners who are doing it toughest, such as pensioners who don't own their own home and targeting assistance directly to them."
Mr Abbott's comments have prompted Nationals leader Warren Truss to speak out, saying he does not agree with Mr Abbott's position.
Also speaking to 2GB, Mr Truss said the Coalition's stance on the issue has not changed.
"[An increase] has been our publicly declared position,” he said.
“We haven’t moved away from that position and I don’t have any plans to move away from it.
“He’s obviously got his views on the issue. My views I guess are somewhat different.”]
Such bickering on so many fronts. It’s the Liberal equivalent of the Victorian bushfire situation – too many fires to effectively control.
What’s that old saying? Something along the lines of “If you can’t manage your own party situation how the hell can you manage Australia?
Final comments – Bernardi says he is not “in a position to retract comments” when those comments relate to fact/truth and are not an opinion.
juliem, Was he asked why he had raised those 14 year old comments at this time?
Written down on a piece of paper that he keeps in his wallet?
I know how Turnbull could piss Bernardi off even more – make Pyne the shadow for disabilities, carers and the voluntary sector, as well as Education!
Oh, and he could email Bernardi instructing him to have the banner on his webpage fixed: http://www.senatorbernardi.com/
What has Bernardi actually been sacked from? Just his portfolio or worse?
Plenty of comments on the Tiser site that Turnbull sacked the wrong one. Dunno what he was meant to sack Pyne for but the Lib Right’s forte isn’t rational thought.
He was shadow for disabilities, carers and the voluntary sector (essentially a shadow parliamentary secretary), but now he will go to the back bench.
That will probably suit him, because he seems to enjoy making Senate speeches against Liberal policy.
222, Steve I think he was BUT my kids had just arrived home from school so I didn’t hear the last few minutes of what he said. Perhaps someone else has heard that answer (?) or you can check the Skynews podcast later?
Re http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/comments/0,22638,25077846-2682,00.html – Bernardi facing demotion over Pyne feud
I just couldn’t help myself in the comments section
What is this about Costello’s concerns that the person who succeeds him in Higgins is Cabinet or PM material? The good people of Higgins do not have one in either position now and haven’t for a while.
Solid point!
228 & 229, those were Glen Milne’s words. I do not know how close he travels to Costello these days so can’t be sure how true that statement is to Costello’s actual own thinking.
The Libs are all over the place. They are running amok.
These are Bernardi’s own words (today) in describing shock at Pyne’s admission. Maybe Bernardi is a Liberal with a sense of values that go beyond blatant opportunism.
Happy days are here again
Where is his “sense of values” when spreading the lie that the Governor General is our Head of State? He seems very willing to make up nonsense just to support his lame arguments. That’s not someone I would ever trust.
The timing of the Bernardi pique of honesty has to be related to Pyne being selected over Abbott for the MOB in Parliament. The right wing trogs switched to Turnbull at the leadership spill and have received none of the plums as their due reward. They’re mad as hell and won’t take it any more.
I suspect that Costello despises Abbott, Minchin et al as much as Turnbull. So this Pyne stuff is just a drive by shooting to let Turnbull know they can cause trouble.
Parliament is going to be great next week!
Hockey as #2 choice for shadow treasurer
Hockey that people are richer now than ever
Bernardi / Pyne affair
Will Julie Bishop remain deputy?
Abbott unhappy he isn’t manager of opposition business
Dutton unhappy he isn’t manager of opposition business
Costello waiting to be Leader of the Opposition
Gusface
#30
“Could one of the esteemed psephological troika please direct me (Monarchs
actual powers). to where..”
“esteemed psephological troika”..I don’t fit first 2 , but hav been called ‘troika’
I can quote if you’re interested all varous sections of Constitution on both Queen & GG ,powers there’s a lot ….however th result is a an apparently confusing three & one ¼ way plus square triangle of a Constituton done in 1900 for THOSE 1900 tikmes
..of th Queen being part of troika of having legislative powers on one hand , plus a GG being her Representativ for those powers that apart from specific social duties include specific reel powerful powers on othr hand , plus a Senate & HOR with powers on third hand , and extra powers & jobs that Queen may decide to giv GG on ¼ hand , and maybe some “conventions” as a bonus to add confusion
Monarchists luv this initialy confusing legal square triangle , because our Republicon debate always ends up trying to unravel this legal triangle with legal complexity and interpretation AND often division between Republicons as well…. meaning Royalists get off th hook in having to actualy debate/defend this absurb 21st Century foreigner ‘involvement’/’link’ to our sovereign independent country called Nation Australia
Summary of varous “powers” answer , if you short cut
1/ Queen still has power to giv GG powers & jobs , but they ar undefined ,
2/ GG has social duties but also has enormous specific powers (some frightening & theoretically despotic powers ) over our Country but here is th confusion triangle legal trick…he GG has them not th Queen …yet he th GG is th Queens representative… and he must be legaly pre approved by th Queen ….and she th Queen has th power to reject that nomination/not to approve
3/ HOR/Senate also hav specific legaslative Parliamentary powers , but as an overall part of troika with th Queen so adding to point 3/ apparent confusion
4/ there ar these ‘conventions’ ..many great until a Sir Joh smashs them
Solution…foerget th above legal triangles completely , its th ‘Royalists’ battleground to confuse/divide us Republicans
Instead simply argue for ‘kiss and gradualism’ principals like:
A/ we Ausralians simply want back THAT power of pre approval of a “GG”/”President”….then that gets th Queen in principal right out of oz 99%
That’s achievd by getting oz voters ‘sentiment’ answer in principal first
via a plebiscite queston yes/ no on a Republic (but my original longer version)
This approach avoids getting into th above confusing legal square triangle s of a 1900 constitution AND then opens field in principal for easy legal options THEN to be takn
B/ with a ‘yes’ answer (expect 80% incl 50% of Libs) , only THEN does one addres all these above legal triangle complecitys of
(i) if Ptresident keeps all or some current GG reserve powers , some despotic ones hav to go to Parliament for sure
(ii) codify fully ,
(iii) codafy ‘conventions’ and
(iv) decide/educate on direct election vs HoR/senate appontment options…get a cart before th horse first surely
C/ remove last 1% of her undefined powers to give GG powers & jobs and also th consequential legal stuff re queen in our Constitution , easy then done with point (b)
Obvious you hav Republicon knowledge , perhaps this clarifys but its my view
I had to check to see if this is correct. I thought it was the following week. Just goes to show how confusing it can be when the one party runs both sides of the argument during a parliamentary recess. It’s almost like normal parliament except much juicier.
AG
Isn’t that what we ended up with for 80 odd years anyway?
Shows On,
But wait, there’s more…..
Hockey v Rudd on Q & A tonight
Howard rebuttal of Rudd tonight
Abbott telling pensioners they shouldn’t get a $35 rise in the next budget
Another Newspoll on Monday
And there is still all of Friday and the weekend for the Libs to demonstrate how relevant they are to Australia’s future.
222 & 226, heard a bit more about 5 to 10 minutes ago and apparently the stuff came to the fore now because one of his constituents asked him about his motivation for getting into politics. It was something along the lines of “not what motivates this guy” {my words in the quotes} as he said those words stuck with him from that day and he wanted to make sure he was entering politics for the right reasons and convictions.
238, yes Parliament on in all its glory next week
GG
Is QANDA live?
Joe Hockey can’t be looking forward to it tonight. It’s pretty hard to spin the last week for the Libs. He’ll be eating an awful lot of humble pie tonight.
Is it going to be Rudd or Swan?
They just played the audio of Abbott on Channel 10 News.
YES! Can’t wait for this. My prediction, 58/42
aka : shit sandwich
Usually I think
Ron
thanks muchly
The Australian delegation to London in 1900 wanted to make the High Court the final court of appeal for all Australian cases. But the states lobbied Joseph Chamberlain, the Colonial Secretary, to retain the Privy Council in London as the highest court of appeal. Chamberlain forced the Australians to agree to this. He conceded, however, that cases to do with the constitutional powers of the Commonwealth and states (”inter se” cases) could not be appealed beyond the High Court. The states eventually abolished Privy Council appeals themselves – in think Qld was the last to do so.
Shows On,
Oops! Swan.
It would be weird having a Sunrise re-enactment on the ABC.
Tony Jones as Kochie doesn’t seem right.
The privy council appeals were abolished in two stages in (1968 and 1986 I think it was) by the Commonwealth (there is a special provision for bills doing this to be reserved for the Queens assent).
shows
apropos last night re syllabus
Yr 6- Australian democracy including day visit to old and new parl house (state school-dont know what the privvys do)
An excerpt from the OO on Christopher Pyne
I take it he didn’t go to public school ?
He went to a Jesuit school called St Ignatius.
That would be the one in North Adelaide ? Prospect Road from memory.
No matter what school he went to I bet he was beaten up
And also getting beaten to a pulp while wearing afore mentioned badge.
William, there’s an article on WA Business News by Joe Poprzeczny about Jim McGinty etc, titled ‘Early poll an ongoing disaster’, but it’s subscription only. Have you seen it, and is there anything interesting in it?
It’s a bit weird that Pyne was so political at such a young age. His father, Remington Pyne, was famous ophthalmologist who helped set up the Australian Craniofacial Unit. Pyne said that he was a Flying Doctor before that. I can’t recall him being very political. His father died very young about 20 years ago.
I’m not sure that Pyne 09 would be happy that with the sacking of Bernardi, this issue has received national media attention.
(Turnbull could have just sent the boys around …)
If Pyne was half as mature and experienced as he says he is, he would just have laughed it off and not carried on like a big baby and forced Turnbull to turn it into a media issue.
What a mess… you’d imagine the knives will be being sharpened in the Liberal Party right at the moment.
Here are some highlights, Bird.
Here is Time’s best 25 blogs of 2009. It would appear that William forgot to put the Pollbludger entry in again.
Lots of our political favourites are there; TPM, HuffPo, The Daily Dish, Crooks and Liars, and Krugman.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1879276_1879279,00.html
Sad to see Time praising up the agents of its own demise, which cannot now be far off.
Adam
The article for TPM really sums it up. They even won a Polk last year. So much for blogs being echo chambers for rehashed MSM articles.
The Bernardi story was the first one mentioned on ABC News S.A.
Tony Abbott, economic dunce:
“An increase of $35 a week would be a $6 billion hit on REVENUE”
Wouldn’t it actually increase EXPENDITURE / OUTLAYS / TRANSFER PAYMENTS!?
In NSW, ABC News talked about Turnbull sacking Bernardi but when they cut to the story it was Chris Uhlman talking about the government’s inquiry into emissions trading (wtf??).
So when is the last date that Anna Bligh has to go? Isn’t she going early? If so, why?
Sounds like they played the same tape here.
I think the Bernardi story was bigger especially given the context of Bishop standing down and Costello being Costello etc.
It seems that there is no change in coalition policy on pensions. Tony Abbott was just being his usual self, going off on his own.
Glen, what are you going to do about this rabble?
He’ll probably vote for them.
ShowsOn when Tony Abbott and Nelson were backing them the GFC hadnt fully bitten so it is understanable to have a change in policy in light of external influences…it does give the Govt some ammo to belt us with though.
remember the ABC board and how many of Howard’s appointees are there, unless the host is too big to be got at the tone of most of the reporting has gone extreme right wing.
Yes, because it just demonstrates that the call for an increase in pensions was a political stunt.
Who’s on the 7:30 report tonight? Is it worth tuning into in 90 odd minutes? Cheers
I seriously don’t think the ABC is biased. They are the most balanced media source.
Don’t think there will be any politics stories. I heard: Story about self funded retirees, story about Canberra fires 6 years on. Can remember what else.
ShowsOn how so? The fact that we can’t afford it now is because Rudd has spent over 50b since we made that policy decision so no wonder we cant afford it based on Rudd’s cash giveaways!
Juliem no not tonight but do watch Q and A because it’ll be Hockey v Swan…a 9:30pm must see…
It is all about the money, they are not getting any and they are mighty pissed off.
They missed out on tax cuts for high earners, ie them,when Howard was defeated.
They, especially Abbott, took a massive pay cut ministers to backbenches, from a liveable $230,000 + to a paltry $120,000.
They missed out on the $10 billion in December.
They missed out on the $12.5 billion cash in the stimulus.
And now money looks like going to pensioners, pensioners who don’t contribute to productivity and who should have organised their financial affairs so that they didn’t have to rely on govt support when they retired.
They want some and the’re not getting any.
If Rudd really wanted to piss Abbott and co off he should put a motion to the house a pay freeze for parliamentarians, to reflect the hard times that ordinary Australians are facing.
Then you would hear Abbott squeal.
As well as the Labor caucus.
Glen, I had Q&A booked in on the Foxtel reminder 3 days ago
….. will be there with bells on and staying off of PB after it starts on the east coast because I want to watch it “fresh” …..
Peter Costello flirted with the ALP
Brendan Nelson wanted to be ALP
Malcolm Turbull wanted to be ALP
Joe Hockey2 was pally pally with ALP
Now Chris Pyne also wanted to be ALP
In fact, they can all be ALP – just change the name to (A)ustralia (L)iberal (P)arty.
9 News said that Turnbull has refuted Abbott’s mouthing off and that he supports a rise for pensioners.
The point Abbott clumsily made was that increasing the pension has an ongoing cost to the budget. It isn’t the same as a single one off payment.
The Coalition has a record doing this. It abolished indexing of petrol excise (against Costello’s wishes), which is what produced the deficit in the 2001/2 financial year.
It also gave one off bonuses, because it didn’t want to increase the pension rate.
Smart move, i fear we’d spoil it all for you with our partisan ramblings about why the bloke we like made a meal of his opponent and then why our side is better than the others in dealing with the GFC.
So i suggest we watch it and enjoy it and most likely Tanner will be on Lateline, Tanner is always on Lateline lol!
I’ve been away for a while. Did anyone check to see how long it took to update Bernadi’s Wiki page. When I looked at ^.00 it had.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Bernardi
In a Bulletin article he said “a famous Labor identity” asked him to join the ALP. He doesn’t name, names, but my guess is either Wran or Whitlam.
That a capital 6 there scorpio?
Howard’s going to bat for Turnbull, surprise surprise, he’s has an anyone but Costello mantra, gee we live in interesting times.
cant agree with you re the ABC ShowsOn, the timbre has definately changed the last few years, i think my ‘puter room telly has rusted on ABC over the years and i’ve noticed quite noted changes.
Damn. 6.00.
whoops forgot the link
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496349.htm
He needs to update the banner on his webpage:
http://www.senatorbernardi.com/
If I was Pyne I’d send an email offering to do it using MS Paint. Here’s my email to Pyne where I attack Bernardi and Nick Minchin:
Yeah, the crisis within the Liberal Party. lol
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496349.htm
LOL! The 7:30 Report story on share investment used the music from There Will Be Blood!
Thursday – Clarke & Dawe of course
They are in fine form and extremely topical.
Don’t believe so Oz.
Labor was the one to defer the tax cuts for high earners, it meant they missed out also, and all the spending and stimulus packages that labor is implementing do not benefit them either.
The labor parliamentarians are in the same boat as the libs, ie they haven’t got any of the money. But the labor members have had pay increases by virtue of going from opposition to govt.
Better to be a govt member without a pay increase than an opposition one with a pay increase.
I think the senate forced Howard to do this after he promised to and then reneged, but it was bad policy from all in abolishing the indexation.
I thought Rudd did this when he first got elected? An 18month freeze wasn’t it?
scorpio
Grog saw it on Wiki at 3.42. Greg Kelton posted it on AdelaideNow at 3.06. I linked his article at 3.33. It’s pretty incredible.
This is probably the part that hurt Pyne. That would mean he is a competitor to both Turnbull and Costello.
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496186.htm
You’re right Vera.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pm-favours-further-pay-freeze-for-politicians/2009/01/20/1232213646780.html
No wonder Abbott is so pissed at the thought of pensioners getting $35 a week extra.
The poor kid.
I simply do not like chris Pyne because he is has a plum tung ……or blue tung
Now I’ve been switching Channels when he appears so I don’t hav to hear him so IF in th last year he’s said anyting sensible I’m none th wiser
Mythical storys of him wearing Liberal “turn off th lites” tea shirts …he reckons he wore as a boy , well he didn’t wear them any where near battlers kids seeing as soon as he’d hav started with that plum tung lingo preaching away , he would hav been swatted
Bernadi, in the ABC interview.
I thought it was at the “pleasure” of the leader. At the “leasure” of the leader would of course refer to Costello.
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496186.htm
Ron @ 302,
Your best post yet, Ron. lol
That’s true of 90% of people when they enter parliament, particularly those who enter it when young. Pyne should just have let this go with a laugh.
He would make a fine prime minister…errr… opposition leader
I made this web poll to gauge opinion of people on this board:
How many more troops should Australia send to Afghanistan?
http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/545167-141568
If this bow, Bernadi feels a bit peeved at Turnbull’s treatment of him, he could prove quite a thorn in his side in future. Expect him to slip across besides Barnaby reasonably often from now on until Turnbull gets the chop. Shouldn’t be long now.
Anyone checked Turnbull’s Wiki page in the last few minutes?
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496186.htm
ShownOn
That’s like that Tiser Marj poll. Where’s the less troops option?
Adam
Surely it was the suggestion he was happy to be Labor or Liberal depending on what improved his chances, rather than the rampant ambition, that upset him.
Bernardi could really piss the Libs off and end up in Family First, like a few other embittered SA Libs.
I agree, he’d be right at home with that lot.
castle
I bet his thinking is they only spend it on the pokies.
Shows- re your poll (which I did)
the location map is the USA-
I presume it should be OZ
G’Day Ron
and they don’t whine.
Pine would be a plum tongue, I got blue tongues in the garden eating the snails and they don’t look nothin’ like him
I agree with you about other kids swatting him in his “turn out the lites” shirt, i reckon they would of turned off his lights for him allright
http://www.vexnews.com/news/2905/blog-casualty-bernardi-sacked-for-revealing-on-his-blog-that-pyne-is-not-a-conviction-politician/
lololol
I don’t think we’d better go into the topic of what the young Pyne thought of Don’s hotpants.
I’m thinking the exact same thing Adam lol
I got caught by wilson’s fake yesterday
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496150.htm
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25079667-31037,00.html
LOL! Stagflation in the 80s was caused by Mr Howard as treasurer being unable to remove tariffs, and being able to come to an agreement with unions to settle pay claims. The result was a huge increase in wages well beyond increases in productivity.
Spending measures reduced? OK, that’s code for making massive cuts to outlays. Health and Education would be first to go I guess, after all, that is what Howard did in 1997.
And “removing obstacles to hire” is of course code for WorkChoices Mark II
Howard’s an idiot.
I’d much rather Australia be in $96b of debt at the end of a global recession and one of the highest ranked in health/education/infrastructure amongst OECD countries – than be in $21b of surplus at the end of a mining boom and one of the lowest ranked in health/education/infrastrucutre amongst OECD countries.
Howard is NOT helping Turnbull in his current difficulties. Expect to hear LOTS about this at QT this week.
Yeah, but he raised the issue of stagflation because it is an issue he is an expert on.
Well it was Pyne who said of himself that he has “the hide of a rhinocerous”
Adam also it gave a good excuse to demote a right winger…Turnbull is moderating the Liberal Party in who holds the positions of power…
Hockey
Coonan
Pyne
Morrison
Keenan
Ronaldson
Hunt
Stone
Ciobo
Smith
Pearce
Still hold more sway than
Dutton
Abbott
Bishop
Mirabella
Minchin
Macfarlane
Abetz
Robb
Markus
Did Howard say something this week?
I thought Coonan was from the Right. Didn’t she represent Howard on the NSW Liberals executive after Howard sacked Heffernan over the Kirby affair?
He made a speech tonight backing Turnbull. But Adam seems to think he is actually privately trying to do him damage.
The problem is, if Turnbull falls, then surely Costello would be the last man standing capable of leading them, and I don’t think Howard likes Costello much.
In fact, I would’ve thought he hated Costello more than Turnbull.
Bullbutter she’s a moderate…she backed Turnbull from the beginning…
So who is Howard’s candidate to lead? Not Turnbull, not Costello. Hockey? Abbott? Alex Hawke? Tim Howard?
Couldn’t agree more Bob. In many ways this is still the lucky country and the medium term future looks bright so long as we don’t as a nation slip back into pure greed and selfishness which is basically what Howard and Co encouraged.
ShowsOn, she is from the right. They’re all from the right. They like to think in their little factions that there is a difference between them, but they’re all right-wingers with the slightest of differences.
Rumour has it he hates bread!
Though a couple I would exclude from that generalisation.
Anyone but Costello?
Adam what about the super cop the Member for Dickson??
I said this because I think I recall disgruntlement over the last pay freeze.
Adam is correct. There is a brave new economic world since Howard was cast out by the voters. All this fawning over a failed leader is not going to impress the punters.
The world has moved on. Pity the Libs have not and they deserve to be condemned for their need to hang onto the Howard security blanket.
Dutton is a lightweight, and he has a super-marginal seat, and he’s not from NSW. No, my money is on Alex Hawke, “the rising hope of those stern unbending Tories”, as Macaulay said of the young Gladstone.
Then my money is on the ALP to win every election for the next decade.
Glen
I know I shouldn’t ask this but why isn’t Costello on either of your lists?
I know he’s in the wrong house atm, but I reckon Minchin would be the one Howard would prefer as the Leader.
and then some
I’d say Abbott. Which is probably the only way Bernardi will get a front bench job back.
Howard rabbiting on about stagflation demonstrations how he was always an economic dunce. Stagflation means slow growth with high inflation. We have slow growth now, but inflation is the lowest for 17 years.
Stop it, stop it. All these Libs bashing. I am enjoying so much, i am starting to feeling guilty. it must be my catholic/lutheren/buddhish upbringing.
also second hand joe looks “pulp fiction” on Q&A and he admits being bruised.
The odd thing is the old Howardites are turning to Costello to preserve the legacy. Ah the irony.
Howard to parachute into Higgins. It’s the only way to make everyone happy.
Well he does have a lot of experience with it!
Oh yes, it’s very delicious.
Gee the young libs were trucked in for the QandA audience tonight…
Geez Joe Hockey is looking angry on QANDA
Hockey on QANDA says Abbott wasn’t doing a backflip on pensions. He said Abbott was merely saying the govt wouldn’t be able to afford an increase because “they’re giving drunken soldiers a bad name”
Hockey’s been an angry man ever since the election. He needs to get over it. Fat and jolly is a reasonably good look, fat and angry is a very scary look, as Beazley knew.
sorry “that’d be “drunken sailors”
Drunken soldiers of course are very thrifty
A stacked audience tonight for sure…
Expect a press release from the RSL tomorrow about this.
Oh well, I doubt QANDA has any impact – afterall Turnbull didn’t benefit much from his one hour advert last year.
Joe is angry……pie shop must have been shut.
I can remember when I moved from SA to the QLD I couldn’t get over that the RSL clubs didn’t seem to be all that focussed on being a club for returned service men…
The stimulus spending is getting quite a hammering on Q&A. Everyone wants nation-building infrastructure, not handouts.
It’s a shame Julia isn’t on QANDA to really torment Hockey into exploding like the Mr Creosote in the Meaning of Life.
Waiter: How are we today?
Mr Creosote: Better
Waiter: Better?
Mr Creosote: Better get a bucket. I’m gonna throw up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlK62rjQWLk&feature=related
That’s the problem with him – he’s been on that setting for 15 mopnths now, he doesn’t know how to turn it off.
Mind you I’d be pretty pissed too if I’d been forced to eat the sh*t sandwich he’s been served up this week.
Why isn’t Q&A live EVERYWHERE. Tony Jones says it is, but it isn’t.
For Perth they could run it live on ABC2. So if you want to watch it you just buy a $50 digital receiver.
Can I just say that for the record, Dunstan’s hot-pants were ’salmon’, pink is a malicious right-wing slur.
#313
vera
Posted Thursday, February 19, 2009 at 8:37 pm | Permalink
“G’Day Ron
and they don’t whine.
”
Pine would be a plum tongue, I got blue tongues in the garden eating the snails and they don’t look nothin’ like him
I agree with you about other kids swatting him in his “turn out the lites” shirt, i reckon they would of turned off his lights for him allright
G’day Vera , told mary last nite I luv all th ladies here but you cream of crop in clever
Glad you said battlers kids would hav “turned out his lites” , I instead used swatt…geez I reely wanted to use your words , but I did not wish to endanger my damn hard earnd reputation here of being a gentlemen
I think Joe is doing okay. And the union guy is too political, which makes Joe look better.
Good on Dunstan for his ’salmon’ hot pants. Always good to see the establishment being challenged.
Well, effectively it is because it is live on the web
Of course everyone does. Unfortunately everyone thinks you can whip up a Snowy River Scheme in a week.
Joe lying again
LIVE ON THE WEB?!?!?!
*scrambles for headphones*
They look pretty damn pink to me
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.history.sa.gov.au/history/images/Picture%2520004%2520crop.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.history.sa.gov.au/history/object%2520of%2520the%2520month.htm.html&usg=__Iq71vbjwAhHXSB4vopF6f0c57oQ=&h=188&w=238&sz=54&hl=en&start=73&tbnid=yaM9n4crQ_Ax5M:&tbnh=86&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddon%2Bdunstan%26start%3D63%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN
This is can’t be for real. Joe Hockey is the only Liberal on the Q and A panel and the rest are Labor and one Green. Q and A is a mouth piece for the Labor party.
(365) Never let it be forgotten he headed the most progressive government the country has ever seen.
And what a heart-breaker he was in his day..
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/116/284961148_235c54f4d2.jpg?v=0
The die hard Libs in the audience are applauding every time Joe goes on about debt. Can’t they pick their audiences a little better?
Adjust your monitor Adam.
Gee I must have been watching a different show then when MT last year spent a whole hour saying how wonderful and humble he was.
Not a great performance by Wayne on Q&A.
And your problem is?
We’re in government, don’t y’know.
Joe is such a tard
what’s wrong with my monitor?
Hard not to be when the audience is the Sydney branch of the Young Liberals
I’m betting Monday in Question Time will be better.
(380) It is making salmon look like pink. You should get it fixed.
Dunstan in another fetching fashion statement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CABqd4pjz_k
I’m going with pink.
No one’s heard of pink salmon?
(384) I’m taking names.
Ah the white safari suit. Only Don baby could get away with that.
I wouldn’t worry Bree, the audience is nicely stacked for the Libs.
I’m actually finding Hockey is quite reckless in his approach to the idea of a deficit. The fact is that the Libs (if in govt) would also be facing a deficit, and to pretend otherwise is to be a bald-faced liar. To give the impression that they would turn the tide back financially to 2006 is irresponsible.
Kate Carnell is a former Liberal Chief Minister of ACT.
Salmon is such a fey chardonnay right wing colour. Pink is the true colour of the fashionable ALP man.
so thats where Glen and GP are
Wayne answers the CPRS question well… no applause. No surprise.
Bree,
Kate Carnell is an ex Lib Chief Minister of Canberra.
“Gee I must have been watching a different show then when MT last year spent a whole hour saying how wonderful and humble he was.”
It’s because he’s a Labor man.
Hockey is quite reckless in general. He was able to get away with it when he didn’t hold the number 2 spot; but I don’t like his chances under the microscope – the comment about the market making everyone richer is only the first of many.
Death by a htousand self inflicted cuts.
We all remember what a FANTASTIC job Hockey did of selling the Australian people WorkChoices, so he should have no trouble selling the Liberal economic policy, once Turnbull tells him what it is.
I’d much rather Australia be in $96b of debt at the end of a global recession and one of the highest ranked in health/education/infrastructure amongst OECD countries – than be in $21b of surplus at the end of a mining boom and one of the lowest ranked in health/education/infrastrucutre amongst OECD countries.
Ah, the 70’s. A decade when everbody was colour blind.
Union guy’s response to the CPRS question was highly thought provoking – the stats on his Newcastle members is tragic. No response from the audience of course.
Swan and Howes – the AWU tag team!
“so he should have no trouble selling the Liberal economic policy, once Turnbull tells him what it is.”
Turnbull knows zilch about the economy. Even Swan knows more than him.
The QANDA audience really hates Swan. Did he sledge them all before the show? He’s the only one they don’t applaud.
Diogenes, the audience has been stacked with Young Liberals.
Excellent, excellent lecture by Howard tonight. He responded to Rudd’s essay in The Monthly really well.
What! Hockey rabbiting on about small business, yet he VOTED AGAINST giving them a tax cut (lowering the value of goods they can claim a tax rebate on from $10000 to $1000)
By telling everyone that no one does stagflation better than him?
They don’t applaud Union guy either. They like Christine Milne when she has a go at the govt.
Who will tell Turnbull?
Oh, I say, Don. Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.history.sa.gov.au/history/images/Picture%2520004%2520crop.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.history.sa.gov.au/history/object%2520of%2520the%2520month.htm.html&usg=__Iq71vbjwAhHXSB4vopF6f0c57oQ=&h=188&w=238&sz=54&hl=en&start=73&tbnid=yaM9n4crQ_Ax5M:&tbnh=86&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddon%2Bdunstan%26start%3D63%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN
We’d have to pull the feed on the worm if this audience had one. We’re getting killed.
To be fair, Treasurers are rarely loved… just look at Cossie
Joe’s big fiscal plan for the Libs: “give people hope”. Uh huh.
Swan has looked particularly nonplussed by Joe’s performance – I would be too if there was this lump who either blustered or kept trying to make jokes.
Hockey’s rhetoric is empty. Nothing but platitudes. Highly tedious.
That cartoon at the end was HILARIOUS!!!
That would depend, Scorpio. Are you Don’s type?
I don’t think Swan was bad on tonight’s show. To be honest, I thought everyone did a decent job of selling their respective arguments except Kate Carnell.
Last year the Liberals grilled the ABC in Senate Estimates over the composition of the QANDA audience. I think its Labor’s turn.
I thought Hockey managed the decline of the Liberals quite well.
LOL!
Joe Hockey opposes government policies that they haven’t even announced yet.
Dio @ 410, despite my earlier thoughts that I would avoid PB, I’ve been keeping a running watch on this. Thanks for this, I’ve decided it isn’t worth staying up for and that QT next week will be a better value. Jenkins is much more friendly than an audience stacked with Young Libs
…….
Not hard with a stacked audience
jovial joe was back for a bit I felt
making meaningless statements and nice homilies is his forte.
Should last as long as bishop
Oh wow, Lateline already has footage from live QANDA. That’s some fast editing.
Tax money put to good work.
Leigh’s jacket is revolting.
And who is on Lateline tonight?
This is off-topic but quite worrying:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496462.htm?section=justin
Yep. He has nothing except making jokes.
Someone from The Spectator magazine, juliem, talking about what the Liberals need to do to become electable.
Call themselves the Australian Labor Party is my advice.
Swan 2
Hockey 175
I almost feel sorry for Swanny on Monday, he’ll be shitting himself in QT lol!
Thankfully we have a proven communicator in the Treasury portfolio and a great media performer.
Gee Howard looks like he has been hitting the plonk.
Yes Glen, that was probably the stacked audience count, and the number of jokes made
What BS. The only time Swan stuffed up was when he was talking about consultancy fees. Hockey didn’t really “stuff up”, he just talked about Liberal policy (or lack of).
In terms of delivery they were both pretty even thought Swan’s content (Labor policy) was infinitely more lucid then Hockey’s (nothing).
thanks Oz
….. the Libs aren’t electable at the moment, not a snowballs chance in an extremely hot place 
…….
Haven’t these people heard of the electoral cycle? No Australian federal government since 1931 has served less than two terms, and very few state governments (within my memory, only Jack Tonkin in WA, David Tonkin in SA, and Michael Field in Tas). Unless something really calamitous happens, Rudd will serve at least two terms. The Liberals might as well spend the next three years in St Tropez.
Oz what about when he ranted on about fruit and vegetables lol
His lame attacks on Hockey were bounced off everytime…
Swan looked like the rookie tonight, all he is good at doing is repeating a script but he cannot hack it with proven media performers like Joe…
Joe did all right, if they can get rid of the right wingers,and have us forget the Howard years ( they need him to go away) they could be competitive.
It impressed me Joe supported Labor’s position when it made sense instead of the constant crap we have had before. As for he women on the left and the bloke on the right, take em out behind the shelter shed and shoot em.
So,were you down front or siiting up back!
Christine Milne looked so out of touch with middle Australia it isnt funny.
And to think when BB goes that lady will be running the Greens (shudders)…
Talk about a fanatic!
I thought Joe did a reasoinable job on Q & A , now when he’s subjected to pressure and econamic fugures , trends & solutions wwe’ll see
Swan sepite saudience was more reassuring i substance and that is what reel voters want to know & understand Gocery lady had good arguments but poor presentation
AWU guy presented a clever case withut critisising govt , good point on using aussie alum & steel in Stimili
AWU guy also killed Milne who foolishly talked of steel alternitive and then he asked her how else do you make Steel after 2000 years , kept asking , she had no clue Milne is a liteweight repeating slogansBob Brown so farx superior pollie
Careful, the Lib supporters on here get quite antsy about people paying out Hockey’s weight!!
Glen Swan did alright also, the bright thing to do is be honest about the performance instead of going on with the constant ra ra. Swan will never be leader, Joe just might be one day, it was a very solid performance..
The union thug’s a big help joining Andrew Bolt in the Global Warning Sceptics Club. Where do they get these people from?
I think if you took out the audience reaction, which can be very leading, you’d have to say that Swan and Hockey were fairly balanced in terms of delivery. Whether you leaned to one or the other then depends on who’s policies you agree with it.
Christine Milne also did a good job in presenting her case and managed to weave in the importance of climate change in most answers without sounding preaching.
I agree with fredn about Kate Carnell and the AWU guy, they were boring sycophants.
I thought that Leigh Rhiannon chick is going to run?
Even ALP supporters have to acknowledge that Hockey is a good performer and will make life much harder for Swan than Julie ever did…
Glen
Christine Milne’s support base is not middle Australia. What disappointed me is that none of the others seem to have worked out the economy is changing, investment in green technology is where is at. There is no future in attacking greens when they are on solid ground.
Sales person doesn’t matter when the policy is pro-unemployment and pro-recession.
Exactly, he’s just that. Long on performances, short on substance.
When Tony Jones said “How goes the war on you?” to Hockey, I thought he was making a jibe regarding the War on Obesity.
I thought Joe arrogant and condescending towards Milne when he badgered her about how long she’d been in Parliament. (Since 1989 in Tasmania). Sexist tosser! I don’t think that sort of attitude plays well any more.
bob1234, Hockey is a better performer than Swan who only knows how to repeat the handouts he gets from Treasury…
Hockey could well be the leader after Turnbull after a couple of elections…
How many ways can the union thug and the food flack say “We believe in climate change but we just don’t believe in doing anything about it”?
Yet to be proven. How long has Joe been in the job?
She’s nominated for pre-selection for the Senate in NSW which she’ll win, but it’ll be hard to win the seat unless there’s a DD and even if she does get in there won’t be any leadership challenges coming from her nor any dispute between her and Milne.
GG he meant Federal Parliament and she’s only been there since 2004 so her rants where baseless the AWU sick burned her when it came to steal as ROn made point of, it was classic she just has no clue!
He’s an empty suit IMO. Can crack jokes, but has nothing else.
Thanks for admitting that the Liberals won’t win government at the next election. It’s good to see some honesty from a rusted Lib, it’s very refreshing. Certainly fresher than stale Brie… err… Bree.
The AWU is entitled to stand up for its members’ jobs, but they need to get with the program CC-wise. Hoping it’ll all go away soon is not a good plan.
Hockey was doing his breakfast tv show routine while Swan was being the Treasurer of Australia
Glen I am not a labor supporter I am a very very disappointed liberal supporter. But I was impressed by Joe, there is something there other than ra ra for Howard’s failed policy and the damage he has done to the Liberal party. But the Liberal party has a long long way to go before it is ready to govern again.
One is only allowed to criticise the record of the Howard government if they were in Parliament during their entire term?
This is not really correct. She got her point across in the end which was that an economy based on shovelling stuff out of the ground, burning it and then selling it to China is not sustainable. The discussion surrounding the chemistry of ore refining is not really relevant to QANDA.
As a relatively independent viewer, I think Hockey is killing Swan. Especially as he’s been dealt such a crap hand to play with.
Not necessarily… there’s a few Greens hanging around these days. I’m from WA and therefore biased, but I really like Scott Ludlam. He’s doing a fine job against Conroy on the net filter issue… he’d make as good a leader as anybody.
Let’s face it QandA has a very select TV audience. Political tragics supporting one side or the other. It’s importance or influence? None.
Glen,
I was talking about the sneering tone and attitude. What was the point of his question? A smart operator would have known the personal history of the people he was debating. Milne just punched his buttons and Joe lost he cool. Does not auger well for Parliament where the Opposition is at a disadvantage.
Has Leigh just been to the St Vincent De Paul’s second hand shop?
What did he say that impressed you fred?
Ron I read up on what it means to be a true gentleman and you certainly meet all the requirements
http://orgs.usd.edu/sae/tg.cfm
Well Hockey started by saying “The Greens”. There has been at least one Green in the senate since 1990. So that’s longer than the term of the Howard government.
A show pony with little substance can do that.
Without that audience he wouldn’t be. All Joe ever has is jokes.
Milne was way out of her depth on QANDA she knows nothing about economics or how steel is made she thinks there are alternative ways to make steel.
Milne also thinks Australian jobs should be lost to make her feel better when no other country will put in place an ETS and all it will do is destroy the Australian economy…she’s got no clue, i guess that is the result of so many years in Tassie politics!
Glen would be more interesting if he read other people’s posts.
Oz,
He can’t do that cos he is too busy typing up the Liberal talking points.
I’m ignoring the audience. He comes across a lot better than Swan. I’m not judging on substance. I’m judging by electability.
Poor Libs such as Glen, there’s no longer a middle ground balance of power party like the Dems, it’s now the Greens which are far more hostile to the Libs than Labor. Just imagine the next time the Libs get back in to power, and have to deal with a Green balance of power!
Oh yes, there will be blood!!!
Hockey destroyed Swan when he pointed out Swan and the ALP voted against the 30 dollar a week pay rise for pensioners last year…sick burn!
Leigh Sayles has fallen into a black potato sack! SOMEBODY HELP HER OUT!
Interesting article here from the International herlad Tribune.
UBS, the largest bank in Switzerland, have said that they will divulge the names of U.S. clients whom the authorities suspect of using offshore accounts at the bank to evade taxes.
Its good to here something positive about the world economy even in these times.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/19/business/19ubs.php
472 Diogenes- Oh, so on this performance you’ll vote for the Libs next election?
Hockey cut off Milne before she could finish pointing out that both Hockey and Swan voted against The Greens proposal for a $30 increase to the pension a few months before… even sicker burn!!
Diogenes
Posted Thursday, February 19, 2009 at 10:47 pm | Permalink
“The union thug’s a big help joining Andrew Bolt in the Global Warning Sceptics Club”
Th AWU guy is neither a thug or CC skeptic
Suppose you were thrilled with your greens rep Milne , I mean so inpiring she should be a footy coach ….her gall critising Rudds 5% target , wanting 20% now !…she is an econamic lunatic
IF Rudd had of looked at politcs only and not been committed to reel CC outcomes , he would never hav announsed th 5% to get th ETS through Senate
Instead Rudsd would hav said “i’ll agree with whatever CC target Coppenhaggen agrees on , and I’ll push them for 15%”
HAD Rudd done that , these fools like Milne would not hav been able to criticise a Rudd target at all !!!…because there would not hav been one to critisise !
Instead unlike mile , Rudd is serously committed to CC solutons…that requires an a ETS operatonal and passed by Senate , thats why its 5% as announced , only 5% target if we ar lucky with eithr Greens or Libs will get passed in senate …its calld politcs on this politcal Site ….later if Coppenhaggen goes 15% so we will
Rudd has said that unambiguous , and so did Wayne Swan tonite
I’m tired of sanctimonious alleged CC suporters like Milne with there hypocritical argements , they ar th reel skeptics because they don’t supoort CC outcomes solutions of which an ETS is a criticol pre requisite …there’s 2 factions in Greens Party ….rational and irational , Milne is in th latter
.
now for Greens stupitity attacking AWU , steel and aluminium gives aussie jobs….voodoo Greens Milne wants them exported to add to China’s exisiting steel/aluminium workforce , a disgrace.SOCIALY …and she says she’s “green”…does no this hypocrit know our production produes less greenhouses , so she is supporting increasing co2 , reel bright
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25080383-5005962,00.html
Who does Hockey think he’s kidding?!
Not arguing that he comes across better, but that’s not really what you need in a Treasurer when every slip-up on a fact or figure is on the news. He’s an empty head, and has been exposed as such in just about every interview… and will again.
I lol’ed at Hockey doing the nodding dog behind Milne as she was speaking about carbon reduction
Shorten and Pyne are on next week, that should be interesting, i cant see Christopher whine beating Shorten even with a loaded audience.
Ahaha me too.
Dario
It was his performance as a poly. Being a poly is about providing a canvas for over 50% of the voters to paint their prejudices on. Joe is a poly, not a right wing nutter.
Surely Shorten will let Bernardi on.
I wish the AWU and NUW would toughen up and get nuclear power put on Labor’s national conference agenda.
I love these speeches Howard makes each year. He gets to provide his full support for a new opposition leader each time.
Great marketing idea. Can anyone else visualise a nodding Joe Hockey doll on the back window sill of a purple Valiant.
LOL. Who will it be next year?
Here’s some useless but interesting trivia: between 1996 and 1999 there were actually two different Green parties in the senate; Bob Brown for the Australian Greens, and Dee Margetts for the Greens WA (they only merged in 2003 I think).
Does Howard have any other choice? Of course he has to throw his support behind the leader of the day. If he didn’t, the media would jump on it and all hell would break loose.
Greensborough Growler
Posted Thursday, February 19, 2009 at 11:11 pm | Permalink
“Great marketing idea. Can anyone else visualise a nodding Joe Hockey doll on the back window sill of a purple Valiant.”
you mean like th “David Boon” beer doll
Gary
You’ve got to be kidding me! I’ll be voting Green again, with Labor second. I just said he came across better. I like him. He’s funny. Rudd and Swan could crack a joke occasionally.
Ron
You’re a foundation member of the “I believe in CC but I just don’t think we should do anything about it” team. You joined the day Rudd wimped out and went for 5%. You were asking for 15% ten minutes before Rudd raised the white flag.
ShowsOn – 486 hear hear!
They’ll have an interesting time getting that past WA Labor, unless they quietly changed their tune since the election…
Bird of paradise
WA greens Valentine crew preceded Austrlan Greens who first got electd 96 ..followd German Green ideas , were anti nuke alot
thaats why I always ppoint out CC is labor owned …Hawke Govt signed IPPC convention in 1991 approx…before australian Greens even heard of
you forgot to put the roly in front of poly
492 – I thought that would be your response Dio which sort of makes my point that substance is more important than presentation. I wonder how many people watching this changed their vote. I’m guessing none.
You seem to be forgetting the piss poor job he did as the WC minister, where the contradictions abounded once he had to talk shop (which he didn’t have to do tonight). He will be exposed again in time, ‘pollyness’ or otherwise.
diont forget that Hockey has his media persona to fall back on, the experience of those years on Sunrise stand him in good stead, if you go back and look at what he really said it was nothing dished up with the ‘hail fellow well met’ front.
i know quite a lot about fronting up to the media where the public persona thats nothing like the real you takes over, it’s like pressing a button on a robot, doing or saying whats expected of you and then pressing the off button, Hockey’s media side is a jolly friendly mate who you can relate to as your good mate, this might sound jumbled but it’s as near as i can describe it and i saw it loud and clear with Hockey tonight.
Glen, the audience was stacked in Hockey’s favour – obviously the North Sydney branch of the Young Liberals was let out of the cage!
Hockey I found offensive, just another smart arse private school educated jerk!
Gary
Did you watch the 4 Corners show before the last election on the swinging voters? Those guys didn’t look like they’d recognise substance if it smacked them in the face.
I agree, but anyone thinking that Shadow Treasurers win votes by being funny then they need help. We like the people managing our money to be very, very boring
Who I was impressed with: the union guy they had on! Another Shorten in the making, methinks!
Dario: of course an audience of Liberals will laugh at Hockey’s supposed jokes!
Dario
Joe’s going to be Opp Leader not Shadow Treasurer at the next election. He’d make a crap Treasurer.
“You were asking for 15% ten minutes before Rudd raised the white flag.”
no i was not Get your facts right…when rudd annoused YOUR words were ‘pathetic , and i slapped you down on Coppenhaggen World target Agreement logic was what mattered and we were not going to be econamic guinea pigs for th whole world to satisfy your Greens Party’s stupidity You see i do remeber , you ar alwaysa wRONg
your problam like all Greens is we will be bound by Coppenhaggens % …then when your Greens Party stupidly critisise a WORLD CC agreemetn hopefully 15% , Greens will be shown up as econamic witch doctors who do not give a stu.ff f we get massive unmployment whlst rest of World laughs
Do you think those guys would be watching shows like QandA? Do you think Hockey will be seen on the news cracking jokes and being the friendly positive poly?
Yeah, they date back to 1984 in one way or another. Vallentine got elected in 1984 for the NDP at the same election Peter Garrett didn’t, and she ended up in the Greens about 1990. She was followed by Chamarette and Margetts, and then WA started electing Democrats for a while instead and Brown and Nettle got in over east. We’ve got a bit of a tag-team thing going on, by the look of it.
He’d definitely be better suited to the top job. I just can’t see it happening though.
And the Liberals should be brave enough to go to an election from opposition explicitly saying they will legalise nuclear power because it could cut our emissions by 20% in 30 years. That way if they win they will have a mandate that Labor shouldn’t be allowed to block.
Remember that poll a few months ago saying that 43% now support it. As Possum posted:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/01/28/is-opinion-on-nuclear-power-changing/
Shanahan being interviewed this afternoon on Sydney radio was getting very excited about a supposedly imminent Costello leadership challenge.
This newspaper guy with the fake hair and teeth is shifty.
He looks like he is in a disguise.
510 ShowsOn – A great idea. Rudd could do with one more issue to belt the Libs with.
Another thing I find funny: the Liberals are now claiming Obama is a superior economic manager to Rudd, the very same guy who not long ago they were happy to deride as an Islamic terrorist sympathiser. Talk about hypocrisy!
Meh. He’s a Liberal. He wants to make your kids work for peanuts, two weeks holday per year, no penalty rates, unable to afford a house.
There’s nothing “jolly”, jovial or good-natured about that. It’s grim, greedy and sinister.
No, sorry, Adam. More like “Donna’s”.
511 – Please let it be so. ‘Mr Workchoices’ is exactly who Labor need to head the Libs at the next election.
Shows On,
That’s the microphone!
#512
“This newspaper guy with the fake hair and teeth is shifty.
He looks like he is in a disguise.”
hope you ar not looking at a mirror
514 evan14 – Their Repubican cousins don’t think so.
Oh, of course! My mistake.
HAHAHAH HA AH RON OH YOU GOT ME WITH THAT ONE!
I have to acknowledge that Swan put in a fairly lacklustre “media performance”.
Joe certainly won on body language, demeanor, humour, delivery.
However, I’d suggest that reading a transcript of what was actually said may lead to a different conclusion.
ShowsOn -510 agreed…couldnt be more right!
I find it funny that because Joe got a few zingers in on Swan that the crowd were all young libs, that’s just sad and stupid…
Yeah, and soooo many of his other prognistications have come true lately
Ah, the old JFK versus Nixon effect, where those who istened on the radio felt Nixon won, but those that watched it on TV thought that JFK won.
when it all boils down i dont think Hockey’s performance tonight is going to take the blow torch off the coalition mess of the last few weeks, really it’s only political tragics who’d be watching that program and political tragics usually have worked out their ideologies, to the average punter tonight would have been as dull as ditchwater, they wouldnt have bothered to turn it on when it’s against Life on Mars or Private Practice, if Hockey gave a few libs a smile dont begrudge them, god alone knows they desperately need some sort of a lift.
Winston
“Joe certainly won on body language, demeanor, humour, delivery.”
yes and know , inital reaction of punters yes…5 seconds of sunlite for Joe , tthen when they realize Joe reely didn’t say anything anf that Swan was reassuring substanse any swing votes if any will go Swan , and Labor I feel
I know webpolls are a joke because they aren’t a random or representative sample. BUT, this poll has been at either 60/40 or 59/41 for the last 2000 votes:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22073824-5013404,00.html
Does Q&A get any sort of audience? Is it just political junkies who watch?
Tanner vs Hockey would be far more entertaining, Tanner is far too smart for Hockey’s bluster.
Glen, how unfair to young libs, some of em are just sad
Showson @ 525
I was actually thinking more of Menzies & Calwell. It was a comment sometimes made about their speeches.
Glen, I know a stacked audience when I see it!
evan,
“Glen, I know a stacked audience when I see it!”
We know, you blog on Gilligans Island!
BLOODY HELL, I just noticed that Ben Bernanke is still Chairman of the Federal Reserve (i.e. the U.S. version of the Reserve Bank Governor).
Doesn’t Obama have the power to sack him and appoint someone who isn’t such a screw up and disappointment to even his own parents?
Glen, haven’t you complained in the past about QandA audiences favouring Labor? Besides it becomes very obvious when an audience gives no support to the opposing point of view that it is stacked one way or the other.
Kiribilly Removals first load iut to Wolstenstone or whatever it is, was the contents of the wine cellar. Can’t be much left by now.
I thought Howard looked “OLD” tonight. If he had of been re-elected, he would have looked worse than “old MR Grace” by the end of 2010 when he would have been wanting to go around again.
Costello would have been cheated once again. He’s lucky Rudd tossed old Johnny out. At least he won’t have to wait quite as long for a tilt at the top job. Turnbull’s toast, now.
Seriously, Nelson or Turnbull could now be P.M.
“Turnbull’s toast, now.”
Hear! Hear!
scorpio
Posted Thursday, February 19, 2009 at 11:33 pm | Permalink
Adam “That would depend, Scorpio. Are you Don’s type?”
No, sorry, Adam. More like “Donna’s”.
your restraint is awesome Scorpio , you didn’t reverse queston and I was impressed And Don’s pink pants reely didn’t sort of fit labor’s steel workers image
Didn’t watch Q&A but reading the posts here i got the impression tomorrows headlines would be oh soooooo bad for Swanny, BUT to my delight they ain’t
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/swan-and-hockey-face-off-20090219-8coy.html
Should be shamefull for liberals to go to the audience of an ABC show. The Abc is an evil public instiution and they should be spending their time supporting a private market oriented alternative, after all markets should be the most efficient way of distributing resources. I’m sure seven, Nine or Ten is producing a superier product. Meh never mind.
Vera “BUT to my delight they ain’t”
and neither they should be Vera as Swan didn’t do a dancse and sing routine . Joe did…as said 5 seconds joe impressive , but voters will forget that as he said nothing of importanse
but Swan was very substantive in howw and what he said …thats a rtreasurers job but Glen wants th treasurer to be a roly poly teddy bear comedian
Ron,
“Glen wants th treasurer to be a roly poly teddy bear comedian”
That’s how Swan got the job in the first place?
Gary Bruce my complaints have been about Tony Jones and who he selects for the QANDA panels…the audiences for these things are mainly made up of left wingers as right wing people have better things to do with their spare time lol!
You’re right there Ron, Joe has at least one stuff a week, Roly poly clowns belong at Aston’s circus not parliament.
should be “stuff up’
Glen,
Bad news, Swan wins on the substance. Great photo of Joe BTW.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496476.htm
Glen something to make you happy
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/netanyahu-in-pole-position-to-become-israel-pm-20090219-8cml.html
Bryan Adams performing in Abbey Road studios.
NO F’ING WAY!
Ron, or if you put it another way. In the image, Don didn’t sort of fit the pants.
There seemed to be “lumpy bits” sticking out.
Then why are you and GP doing spending so much time on Pollbludger, Glen? lol
And headlining ‘The Age’ – Coalition turmoil deepens
http://www.theage.com.au/national/coalition-turmoil-deepens-20090219-8coj.html
Jeez! So problematical to log in.
Your hair, Vera. Nice at first…till the Finns!
Like your dog, GG. I was thinking of getting an animal, yours has the sharp face I favour.
Pam and Kerry had a gorgeous dog, they reckoned it was a Basenji, but I think not.
Anyway it was lovely and did not bark.
a surprisingly well balanced article from Shanahan about the Hockey/ Swan face off, is it my imagination or has Shanahan become more reasonable lately?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25079651-7583,00.html
Must have been a ghost writer
JB,
I think he may have written off the Turnbull leadership. Will probably resort to form when the Costello leadership push comes.
Killer pargraph is:
“Hockey is a broad brush and that is his limitation. John Howard appointed Hockey to replace Kevin Andrews to sell the Work Choices industrial relations policy. But Liberals always maintained that while Andrews understood the detail of the policy but couldn’t sell it, Hockey could sell it but didn’t understand it. Attention to detail and application to task, not broad popularity, arethe challenges Hockey faces in taking on Swan.”
Says it all really.
newspoll usually gets taken this weekend, mind i dont think it can possibly get any higher for Rudd–could it? well time will tell, i’ll be having pleasant dreams tonight about imploding coalition divisions, hmmm wonder who’ll win out in the end the wets or dries, left or right, g/night folks sweet dreams.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/turnbull-brooks-no-breaks-in-ranks-20090219-8cmv.html
Scorpio , #550 your observaton is micro millimetre perfect
“newspoll usually gets taken this weekend, mind i dont think it can possibly get any higher for Rudd–could it?”
well at least th Libs know 100% is th worst it will get
well actualy 103% , suppose gotta take that MOR into it as well
#558
Good strategy there from Abbott. Lets offend the only cohort left that will vote for us.
BRILLIANT!
Some smart Aussie inovation here.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496458.htm?section=justin
I answered an ACNeilsen online poll last night. Questions were;
Would I vote Lib or Labor,
Did I think Rudd was doing a good job re:GFC,
Did I think Turnbull was doing a good job re:GFC,
Preferred leader – pick from a list of about 20 of the top players from both sides.
Tom
For those with good memories, I wonder if Coonan would be interested?
More trouble for the Libs. Ruddock being challenged for his seat.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/rightwing-set-to-challenge-ruddock-20090219-8cmw.html
So the Liberals are going to become inhabited by even more right wing loonies?
This is so Abbott, saying the exact wrong thing at the wrong time, politically.
You would think he would put pressure on Rudd to increase pensions because he knows how expensive it would be and thus difficult for Rudd. But now he has floated the idea that from the Opposition side that large pension increase is out of the question, takes a bit of pressure off Rudd, whilst upsetting some of their core voters.
Rubbish. I know Noel McCoy and he’s as far away from a lunatic as is possible. Traditional conservative values man.
As for Q and A last night, Hockey pretty much wiped the floor with Swan. The Treasurer looked idiotic on the consultancy question and weak on others. Christine Milne engaged in her usual climate change zealotry, though she made a resonant point (as did Hockey and Kate Karnell) that people would rather money spent on big infrastructure projects instead of wasteful handouts. The union hack thinks the taxpayer should subsidise his members’ jobs yet hypocritically says that he is not a supporter of protectionism. Idiot.
The main point to take from this is that Hockey is doing a much better job as a shadow treasurer, at least initially, in terms of making points against the government. Obviously everyone here is better versed on the politics, but to the average non-engaged punter, you’d have to conclude that Hockey is the stronger communicator – which exactly what is required in a shadow treasurer.
I also note that I missed the discussion on nuclear. According to this week’s economist, Sweden plans to reverse its 30 year ban on building new nuclear capacity and follows in the footsteps of Finland and Poland who are both expanding their nuclear capacity.
Nuclear power makes a lot of sense – with careful planning, it would be supremely beneficial to the Australian economy and environment. This should be a front and centre policy platform the Liberal Party.
I have always wonder, what is it about South Australia?
how come there are so many “funny” things and people popping up all the time. It must be the funny water of the Murray River that has been dumped on them from all the other states.
I don’t think Shanahan is non-partisan in the Liberal Wars at all.
He’s contributed to getting rid of Bishop, now he’s set his sights on the main person, Turnbull. Clearly a Costello pitch from our Dennis.
If Peter gets the gig what a disppointment he will be (after all he’ll have to think for himself for a change and actually show some intestinal fortitude). And when he fails, then what will they do?
Joe Hockey might have a good time on the Q&A last night. But Joe will never rise above anything because his brand has been forever tainted and damaged by his own leaders (Turnbull & Cossie), Joe will be forever known as Second Hand Joe. Not to mention his follies on SerfChoice.
btw: my reference about Cossie & Joe was when Cossie referred to Joe as “HE WAS MY JUNIOR MINISTER”. Oouch.
Hockey comes across well, jovial, likeable, gets laughs from the audience. I’d like to have a beer with Joe, because Hockeys me mate.
Swan comes across serious, dour, a Bernie Fraser type.
In any footy club, school board or social club Joe would win the presidency hands down, but Swan would be always be treasurer.
TP
GP
Yep. Traditional conservative values = Lunatic. Both right.
Another opposition talking point as headline on ABC news online.
“Govt ‘in disarray’ over scrapped ETS inquiry”
Scurried back looking for the headline in a previous story that says “Govt scraps ETS inquiry”, but of course there isn’t one. I’ve fired off a complaint, and I think I will keep complaining until these jerks learn to write a headline.
I don’t see what’s wrong with that headline at all.
The government’s stuffed on the ETS. At the moment they’re stuck between the cross-benchers and the Liberals – a virtual impossibility. If there’s an early election to resolve the issue, The Greens will have the balance of power and Labor’s stuffed again.
Heather Ridout is back to lauding the government over it’s new jobs plan.
The last line from Shanahan’s (pretty good article):
Did Howard really get better as treasurer??
Nick Minchin will be on in ABC2 in a second talking about disunity in the Liberal Party.
Ohhhh Minchin is backing Bernardi saying he’s a “Rising star and I would welcome him back on the front bench”.
He’s also not endorsing Christopher Pyne.
Gary et al
My comments about Hockey were not saying QANDA would make any difference. I’m more looking to the next 18 months and Swan’s very poor media persona will be more of a liability than against the hapless/hopeless Bishop. But Swan won’t make any major stuff-ups. As the person who wrote Shanahan’s article for him said, Swan will be all over the detail, will stick to his lines and refuse to comment beyond them.
Anyway, Swan v Hockey is a side-show. Rudd v Turnbull is the main game.
Do you have a link Oz, or was it on sky or ABC2?
Now now Dio, let’s be gracious
goodmorning Bludgers, Finn we South Australians are a unique lot, comes of not having convict ancestors i think and the nice clean air and lack of smog, though maybe we’re all a bit inbred, everyone knows everyone here.
is it wrong to feel so gleeful with the coalition imploding in such a spectacular way? this state has never been a Howard stronghold, well i guess we can only sit back and enjoy the fireworks, when does the next poll come out? though i dont think it’ll get any better than what it already is.
She was on ABC2, Grog.
Newspoll on Monday.
“The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast” so sung Bob Dylan.
The Liberal Lines are now split into 3. One Turnbull, one Cossie and one for the Uglies.
There have been so many curses thrown, you just dont know where to start.
The latest curse being Minchin of the Uglies to Turnbull while supporting another Uglies Bernadi. Howie has just thrown another curse at Turnbull by “supporting” him.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25080741-5013871,00.html
Hockey, along with all the Liberals, voted against assistance to schools in the second stimulus package. They voted against assistance to every school in the land. Nothing “jovial” in that!
And whining that pensioners will “blow their handouts on pokies” is to deny indirect assistance to footy and social clubs.
JB, more inbreeding.
Hockey’s main problem is that he has twice been given an impossible job; to sell policies that are unsellable, as in Workchoices and “Watch and wait” on the GFC. They’re both dogs with fleas.
On the ETS, there’s lots of talk about a carbon tax as an alternative. The list of pros and cons compared to a carbon trading scheme shorted out my very tiny economic brain module, so I’m hoping some of the economists here like the redoubtable Possum can enlighten us in monosyllables preferably.
Of course it isn’t. If the situation was reversed they would feel no guilt for gloating.
The coalition are in such disaray at the moment . It conjures that famous quote ” they couldn’t even build a sand castle at the moment. One wants the bucket and the other wants the spade. And if they ever managed to build the thing, Barnaaby would just come along and smash it anyway!”
Finns
If a war starts between the Koreas while Hillary is in Seoul, I’m assuming that Hillary will stick around given all that experience she has in dodging sniper fire.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/19/before-clintons-south-kor_n_168148.html
Things going from bad to worse. The open wounds will not heal for a generation.
Diog, they just love her in Korea, Hillary now has been given a Korean name.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2009/02/139_39901.html
Even the Dear Leader. he is a closet usaphile. before long the Dear Leader will whisk her across the 49 parallel for a private audience. So dont you worry about war or dodging bullets. Just ask our DL, Lu Ke-Wen, he is also a “Han”.
At the risk of flanning the flames, I agreew with GP that we will have to consider nuclear for base load power in the medium term. To date clean coal shows no signs of being reliable, or even affordable. 3rd generaion nuclear plants of the French Arema design have been safe and reliable for 30 years. The new 4th generation proposals are even better. Even James Hansen is interested in them. Here is a discussion at a climate science blog (i.e. these people are serious scientists concerned about GW):
http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/02/12/integral-fast-reactors-for-the-masses/
Glenn Stevens before the HoR Economics committee now:
http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/
Well it would be a lovely time for an election, so I presume that the Liberal brains trust is planning to hand Rudd a DD trigger over the ETS.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/crash-or-burn-as-carbon-plan-faces-collapse-20090219-8cmn.html
In the light of a previous post (by Pos or William; can’t remember who) that governments who make excuses for DDs rarely to well in them I don’t think Labor should just rush to an election while the Libs are in dissarray. But the ETS or IR laws would both do as a reason. There was a clear mandate for both, and I don’t think that has changed.
Maybe Hockey can ask Stevens for some basic pointers on how to understand economics. A basic textbook would be an ideal christmas or birthday gift from Swan.
sook is for sook, which is what is was, is, and will be. She’s a virtual-bullet dodging second place getter who sooked when she didn’t get the blue ribbon.
BarryO aint no sook!
I’ve got the perfect book for that gift Howardnomics- debunking the myths of the Howard and Costello super heroes
All the old arguments against nuclear are as valid as ever, but it must be asked whether, as the danger of continuing to burn coal is becoming so great, and as renewables are not yet ready to replace coal, nuclear should not now be seen as lesser of two evils. I am increasingly agnostic about this.
Adam
I agree, and that is close to my own view. I don’t pretend that nuclear is problem free, or that we should ship uranium to Iran tomorrow. But if it solves the problem and we are dealing with stable, democratic states (eg India) then I think we should consider it. There are policies we could adopt to minimise risks, like leasing fuel rods for later return rather than just selling uranium. This would also make us a more responsible global citizen by both reducing the proliferation risk and storing the waste in the country wiht the best geology for the purpose. I would certainly encourage anyone to read the Brave New Climate blog debates about it. They are well informed.
I’m talking about nuclear for Australia as well as export.
Adam
In principle I am in favour of that too. I think the situation varies on a state by state basis. Where we have black coal and reasonably efficient power stations (eg Qld, NSW) it is stillhard ot justify nuclear. But certainly for the brown coal stations in SA and Vic, nuclear may well be the lesser of two evils as you say. Combined with wind and solar hot water on every house roof you could eliminate some of our worst emitters.
To achieve this though, we need to have a long term policy, build technical capability, and have an effective waste treatment strategy, including storage site. North central SA near the rail line junction would be ideal.
Socrates
Rudd has certainly got a mandate for the IR reforms, but not for the ETS. He’s got a mandate to do something about CC, but not necessarily for his scheme.
Adam
Possum’s figures certainly show that the general population is becoming more agnostic on nuclear, as am I although I don’t think Oz needs it. Plenty of other countries, like India and China, would benefit greatly from it. I’m surprised the nuclear lobby hasn’t made more moves recently to try and win over the large number of agnostics. I suspect they are talking to the LNP about the Coalition’s nuclear policy. Could be interesting…
I cannot understand how a reappraisal of the risks of coal, such as has happened under global warming concerns, has not been accompanied by a reappraisal of the risks of alternatives, like nuclear.
Exactly. Labor is opposed to nuclear power, which is their prerogative and fair enough, so the Libs need to actually get a coherent policy together with some vision for the future, cost it and release it. In their current disarray, I can’t see that happening. They’ll just make cheap shots at Labor about needing to consider nuclear as part of the solution to CC without going the hard yards.
Adam: one problem with that view is that by the time we actually plan, build and bring a nuclear reactor on line, renewable energy sources will be leaps and bounds ahead of what they are now. Anyone else see the story on the ABC site yesterday that the CSIRO has developed a way of printing solar energy cells like banknotes? They come out like transparent plastic film…Imagine all the skyscrapers in our cities using their windows to generate power.
Pica the only barryO I know of is Barry O’farrell and he’s a bloody big sook
People were saying that 30 years ago, and it hasn’t happened. Maybe now they are correct, but the longer we wait for renewables to “come online”, the longer we go on burning coal. If the current data on CC is anything like correct, we simply do not have any more time to wait.
Dio
Thats true enough. Engineers I talk to say it would probably take Australia ten years to build up the capability to build a modern reactor properly. That is, we could only start to build one ten years from now.
Mind – the planning and building time for a large coal power plant isn’t much shorter (5 to 7 years). Unless we want to abandon all our aluminium smelters (maybe a good idea) and all manufacturing (crazy) we will still need a source of base load power, either solar base or nuclear. Building panels won’t be enough for the base load grid.
Good to see the issue finally settled.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/20/2496714.htm
Adam
Yes that is the problem – delivery time for all these large scale sources is very long. We may need to start planning for nuclear now, as a prudent back up plan.
The sarcasm is dripping off you.
No 611
The Swedes, Finns and Japanese, among others, have been safely using Nuclear for decades. Nuclear requires careful planning and management, but it is an excellent solution to the emissions issue.
We have some that are shovel-ready. We have cash handouts. We have a $35 increase in the pensioner bonus come budget time. We have long term projects. I think we’re covered.
Pardon my complete ignorance on matters of nuclear engineering – why can’t we just import one from somewhere with expertise in building them – like China for example?
MT to Joe – “Hand me some wallpaper will you, I can still see a few cracks”.
According to Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_China
the Chinese can build nuclear power plants in four years.
I shudder to think what kind of safety standards they have
The Liberals are all over this nuclear issue, leading me to suspect they envisage some Monty Burns-type scenario. The same polarisation of wealth and privilege, though with perhaps enhanced safety standards.
Adam
We don’t even have enough expertise to write the contact reliably. Remember Collins class submarines? This is more complex. We would need to set up relevant agencies, standards, supply systems, select a site, then contract. Finland is taking about 8 years to build their current plant, after an inquiry/planning process that took a similar time, and they already had three plants before then and knew what they were doing. If we got serious we might be able to reduce it to five years I suspect. But then we probably should try to send a few engineers to Finland, Sweden or France to work and learn from them and get cracking.
I do agree with your comments on timing/development risk. I have seen people promising efficient base load solar for as long as I have been working. Geothermal seems closer but even it is only at prototype stage.
Gawd their ABC can’t get enough of their man Howie can they?
Or lets get french one, it can make cafe au laits as well in the down time
The issue of building a nuclear power plant has been there for ages. Howard had over 11 years to commence it. Only when he knew the floor was going to be wiped with his arse did he say he was interested in building one.
If all the Libs can do is realise its not electorally feasible to do it in government, then carp from the sidelines as they do oh so well in opposition, then Lib supporters don’t have the right to criticise.
For some more realistic timelines for nuclear power plants built to similar environmental and safety standards to our own, see the Finnish ones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Finland
When did the left lose ownership of scientific development and turn into reactionaries?
Never?
bob,
I’m more in to black satire. The Libs provide plenty of solid material.
(633) Good, so the risks should just be overcome and the science exploited.
Not particularly encouraging…
Now I read more I find it is actually France that has the most expertise in this. They have just done a 8bn euro deal with China to build their plants for them. That price includes supply of materials, which we wouldn’t have to do since we have our own materials. What if said to the French, come and build an AP1000 at Jervis Bay, as quickly as is compatible with safety?
GP
For the sake of argument, let’s assume that’s true. Are the Liberals going to release a policy that covers all the bases Socrates mentioned. It would be nice to have a fully costed plan to compare to Rudd’s energy policy and let everyone make a judgement about the relative merits. We’re not going to get anywhere until that happens.
Tacky web poll time! Should Australia legalise nuclear power?
http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/545628-141818
About the time they abandoned socialism (an optimistic ideology whatever else it may be) and replaced it with environmentalism (a pessimstic ideology even if correct).
Adam, yes but we know that pessimism can never e correct.
“be correct”
I believe the largest builder of nuclear reactors is Westinghouse.
http://www.westinghousenuclear.com/index.shtm
France is very good too, because about 75% of their power is nuclear.
Even green groups say that by 2040 at best Australia could produce 45% of its electricity from renewables. I guess that means if governments pump in billions. Well, where does the other 55% come from? It would have to be coal, gas, oil, or nuclear. My choice out of those are gas and nuclear.
When parts of the intellectual left got hijacked by post-modernism.
When respecting people’s opinions somehow got converted into believing that all opinions, however contradictory, are valid.
No 638
Certainly, a lot of policy work would be required. Turnbull would do well to consult with the French, Swedes, Finns and Japanese when constructing an appropriate policy.
The only way you quell they hysteria surrounding nuclear is with sound, rational facts from the people who have been doing it for decades.
No 645
they hysteria should be the hysteria.
Turnbull doesn’t have the guts to take a pro-nuclear policy to the next election.
The Howard government should’ve put it through when they had control of the Senate. That would’ve been the easiest way for it to become law in Australian history.
(644) My thoughts also Showson, if the left don’t want to keep up with humanity’s forward progress they should be left behind.
Hockey asking questions in the committee is an odd look. It makes him seem on the level of a back bencher or lowly senator.
Adam
yes the French company Arema are the clear leaders. The Finns have a good regulatory and safety/waste storage system, but Arema build the reactors. However as Dio said, we would still need to address all the other policy issues raised.
Westinghouse, General Electric and the Soviets built a lot of reactors in the 60s and 70s to cold war technology. The French designs are a generation later and better.
http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/turnbulls-authority-takes-a-battering-after-a-week-from-hell-20090219-8cng.html?page=2
A poignant observation from Grattan.
Such as?
While we’re at it, I read that PNG is one of the world’s largest untapped potential sources of hydroelectricity – about 20,000 MW. What is that as a percentage of Australia’s electricity needs? What would be the time comparisons for building giant hydro plants in PNG as opposed to building nuclear plants in Australia?
(651) Grattan has been behind the curve throughout this. The really appalling thing of this latest bout of Liberal in-fighting is that you have had to rely on Shanahan to tell you what is going on. Grattan can do nothing but take everything as it is given with the Liberals, she calls Pyne’s appointment “provocative”? Yeah right! Could Pyne provoke anyone?
He certainly provoked Bernardi, and Abbott.
Turnbull provokes, not Pyne. They just used Pyne as an excuse to get at Turnbull.
ShowsOn @644 (and Piping Shrike @648) if you think that post-modernism is just about respecting all viewpoints as valid then you should go and do some more reading. Further the desire to aggregate a whole bunch of people and their views into something simplistic like the “left” does not serve to assist anyone to understand why certain sections of the community still have legitimate concerns in relation to nuclear power. This of course is not to say that nuclear power is not a good idea at this point in time, however to simply dismiss these concerns through an appeal to “science” does not befit you.
TPS, it was provokative in that all the positions are going to moderates. Pity policy isn’t heading in the same direction.
bob1234, exactly, Pyne’s appointment had nothing to do with policy, it was all to do with outrage that Turnbull, put his people in. Who does he think he is, leader?
Adam 652
I have no idea of the time or cost comparison. Australia generates 44,771 MW in 2002, (78% coal) according to Wikipedia. So 20,000 MW is not trivial; about 40% by now?
There is also the small matter of a grid connection from PNG to southern Australia, where most of the power would be needed.
Having been provoked by Adam, I’ve been undergoing grammar re-education. Grattan is entirely correct that the appointment is provocative, and that’s exactly what her sentence says. She doesn’t say Pyne is provocative and neither does her sentence. Make the joke if you like, but using it to attack Grattan is cheaper than the joke.
PS,
Pyne can clearly provoke strong emotions from amongst his State colleagues given reports that Bernardi can’t stand him.
Minchins’ comments about Bernardi returning to the front bench soon are ominous for future stability.
The reason this campaign has accelerated is that Bishop and Turnbull have allowed the Libs to lose their precious “better economic managers” tag. Without that, the Libs really have no feather to fly with. Shanahan gave this metric so much credence in his pieces before and after the election, that it must be an article of faith amongst the Libs.
So, it’s really only a matter of time before Turnbull is cut down.
Costello’s campaign seems to be copying Malcolm Fraser’s toppling of Billie Snedden. Fraser denied any anti Snedden campaign and repudiated all claims that he was interested in the leadership right up to the moment he stood up to nominate himself in the party room.
Giant cables? Very long extension cords? Beaming microwaves up to satellites and then down again? Millions of Everready bunnies?
Stevens has just said the Bank guarantee needed to be done.
That one
Nothing cheap about my criticisms about Grattan from whom I expect a lot given her record. But she has not been at the forefront of developments in the reports I have read from her in the last year. Manager of opposition business is not a policy position so it is hard to see how it could be “provocative” unless it is made so by enemies of Turnbull that want to make it so. That is the issue, not what someone like Pyne, who has only modest influence could possibly do with the post.
Jack the Insider gets excited:
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/jacktheinsider/index.php/theaustralian/comments/who_will_pull_the_trigger/
A HUGE problem with energy is that science still hasn’t found a way to store it effectively, so it can be transported by ship etc. If they can overcome that problem, a whole lot of unviable options (like PNG hydroelectricity) will become viable and there will be a paradogm shift in this whole debate. From my limited knowledge, they’re not really getting any closer. Perhaps Socrates knows more.
GP – I have never had any nuclear power with that woman. I am thinking of going Solar.
GP – yes, Turnbull did call and i told him ffff-off, unless he prepares to pay me as much as he has paid for the Liberal Party.
Amigo, i hate to think what the Koreans will give the barryOIL. Got some idea though could be libelous.
Or put it another way, if Howard had put someone from his camp in the same post when he was leader, would that be provocative?
My recollection is that when Howard was P.M. he did whatever he wanted, and almost all the time everyone else followed.
I have to say, it was a decision that astonished me.
Of course if we want to get Nuclear Power on the grid quickly and cheaply we could just purchase an ex-soviet nuclear powered ship and run the power cables to the shore.
Of course the big question then would be whether to put it in Double Bay or Rose Bay.
There seems to be a consensus setting in about Joe Hockey. That he’s a decent bloke. That he’s universally liked. That he’s a skillful media performer.
But …
This was the chief spruiker of the most regressive industrial relations reforms our country has ever seen. (And who now cravenly claims ignorance of the extent of their destructiveness at the time he was promoting them.)
This is the clown who capers around parliament with cardboard cutouts and sooky points of order. Whose stock in trade is phony guffaws and mauling opponents in the style of an over-fed school boy from the rugger putsch.
This is the man who licks his chops at the prospect of humiliating those who do not see things his way. A bully surrounded by lickspittle ready to laugh and jeer whenever he needs to apply manly force or intimidation.
However …
With more exposure, I don’t reckon this consensus will survive. His true persona, that of a spoiled, inverted roughneck, will eventually out.
Nuclear is such a 20th century hangover.
1.the adoption of nuclear by australia would guarantee the death of alt energy sources
by
a.tying up capital,research,infrastructure and development resources to service a “ground up” industry
b.abrogate the many advances made by alt energy in Aus.
c.create a false sense of security re energy supply and create an ever increasing reliance on Nuclear
2.the “follow the’leader’ flow on effect would be dangerous
a.any tinpot nation could acquire and create a market for weapons grade product
b. total and irreversible damage to environment esp in those countries where environment controls exist.
c.create an environment where treaties etc would have no effect as everyone scrambles for yellowcake,engineers, concessions
last but not least, if nuclear is to adopted, I would consider it 100000000 x worse than worstchoices and would act accordingly
Genuinely asking, why Antony? I have never seen a Liberal leader with so few of his people in influence as Turnbull. He looks very lonely. He looks no where near having his people in the right places as most leaders.
Boffin: “We have been asking for some years for stronger regulation of the mortgage sector”
I think this will get a mention in Question Time next week. Swan will probably use it to have a go at Costello.
Dio and adam
I am not expert in this field, but AFAIK energy storage is sadly still a huge problem; if not wind and solar power would almost get us to a solution without anything else. Batteries for electric cars are proving difficult; large scale grid power would require something much bigger. Where you have reservoirs with a large level fall, pumping water to an uphill reservoir can be a very efficient way of storing energy. Unfortunatly we live on a rather flat, dry continent.
I like the army of everready bunnies idea best. We could train them to swim from PNG towing barges of fresh water behind them to get us through the drought. Two problems solved.
No thank you.
No, it would actually kill off coal.
This doesn’t make much sense. Lot’s of companies know how to build nuclear reactors, they pay for their own research and development.
That’s better than an ever increasing reliance on coal and / or oil.
Of what? Weapons are made from Plutonium, nuclear reactors use Uranium.
Name one other than Chernobyl.
You don’t need to break any treaties to build a nuclear POWER station.
As is your democratic right.
But that means you are adding further energy demands during peak time that you recover during inter-peak time.
Wow, Hockey pushes back on the “mortgage brokers need more regulation” by saying it is a state responsibility!
He realised the danger of that comment pretty quickly.
Oh no, the Boffin just replied that the states wanted a national framework of mortgate broking regulation, but the commonwealth didn’t do anything! (Which is of course an implicit criticism of Peter Costello).
Adam
If there is no obvious “easy” solution on the power front in the short term, we should still do everything we can to efficiently reduce base load demand. That way we can at least avoid building any new coal power stations. So solar hot water, insulation, more efficient lighting, appliances etc are all good. However people should understand that domestic (household) usage is less than half the total, so we still have to come to grips with a base load supply solution pretty soon.
I can just imagine John Howard saying:
“I never heard anyone say I should take reponsibility for rising house prices”.
ShowsON 678
The idea is that you use surplus alternative energy sourced power in times of high wind/max sun to power pumping the water up, then let it run down and create hydro power to meet peak demand when wind is low/night. George Monbiot discusses it in his book “Heat”.
Shows
ignoring your flippancy for a minute
wtf coal aint alt energy
wtf again- im talking in the future, but im sure russia and china and the usa would tell us if they had radioactive site we couldnt go near- pigs arse
triple WTF- stop focusing on only 1% of the nuclear picture
quad wtf- so countries aren’t going to enrich their uranium
quin wtf- so all the unis,infrastructure diversions etc would be paid private enterprise
the diversion on monies that could be used to develop alt is going to be reduced if we go nuclear
and the nuclear industry is so democratic eh- shows you and I will never see eye to eye on this
though morally I have the upperhand (you know the “bomb” ) and please no kindergarten arguement that nuclaer power is not nuclear weapons
like saying cream aint processed milk
but pray tell me what safeguards you would enact to stop the known and unknown dangers of nuclear power and the associated ability to build weapons from thescience therin
[
[
So, if you were dictator, how would you cut baseload demand, by 50% say, without wrecking the economy?
Piping Shrike, I’m astonished because of who was appointed. It just migrated a tedious SA factional dispute that has been going on for decades to the national level. That’s one reason.
Second, and an entirely personal opinion, I think the media will have a field day with how Pyne comes across on camera. People from others state find that accent hysterical. It was something that used to undermine Downer in opposition, though not nearly as much in government. (There is nothing that helps gravitas as much as actually being in a position of power.)
Thirdy, and as for “I have never seen a Liberal leader with so few of his people in influence as Turnbull. He looks very lonely. He looks no where near having his people in the right places as most leaders.” His problem is an evenly divided party which means it doesn’t matter if he puts his people in the right places or not, push comes to shove he still has to try and govern the entire party with significant numbers in opposition.
The difference with Howard was he was in government and had a firmer grip on the party thanks to winning elections. Compare it with how Howard had terrible trouble imposing his will on the party in the 1980s.
Sure, but consider South Australia that only produces 2/3 of the power it uses during summer. If you are using renewables to move water up a hill during a hot day, you have effectively increased power demand during the peak period simply so you can reduce the amount of imported power during the inter-peak period.
That could result in greater power costs to the consumer, because it effectively means importing more power from interstate when it is expensive (during the peak period) and less power when it is cheaper (during the inter peak period).
“numbers in opposition to him in then partyroom” to clarify my point in the 3rd par.
Can anyone else?
When a conservative commentator like Neil Mitchell, having just interviewed Turnbull, says he comes across as being like a rabbit caught in headlights and that he thinks Turnbull is gone then you know there is trouble in paradise.
ShowsOn @678: [No thank you.]
I guess you will simply accept a polite “No Thank you.” on any implementation of a nuclear power policy.
Weapons can be made from uranium. Basically anything that can be used in a nuclear reactor can be made into a bomb if you have enough and try hard.
Having just watched the H of R committee grilling of Stevens I don’t think Hockey received the answers to his many questions he was hoping for.
If a nuclear reactor melts down, it would be detectable in other parts of the world. The meltdown at Chernobyl was detected by the nuclear fall out being blown over parts of Europe before the Soviets admitted to what had occurred. You can’t HIDE a nuclear reactor melting down, just as you can’t HIDE a nuclear bomb being tested due to anomalous seismic activity.
Nuclear power isn’t 1% of the nuclear picture. More countries use nuclear power than have nuclear weapons.
Unlike renewable energy sources, the government wouldn’t have to invest into R&D in nuclear power stations. Private companies already do it with their own money.
Only because you are using this as a straw man. I propose a constitutional amendment stopping any Australian government from building, supply, using, testing, or developing nuclear weapons. It seems you are just clouding the issue because you have no other grounds to argue on.
What on earth are the “unknown dangers” of nuclear power? There are known dangers – radiation. You seem to just be willfully ignoring the dangers of coal power stations, such as the fact they emit low level radiation:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste
And people from S.A. too Antony!
Sure, that’s better than pretending I’m in favour of Australia possessing nuclear weapons.
It must be heavily enriched Uranium 235, that would be unsuitable for use in a nuclear reactor. Any isotope of Plutonium can be used for nuclear weapons.
At least it’s not just SA. We’re all in the same boat.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25081882-601,00.html
I think Turnbull has the correct plan, generally speaking, for the Libs, but his execution is terrible. He is trying to get rid of the flotsam that i still associated with being major players in the Howard years. We can all see the problems they are having in regards to talented performers who are not tainted by history. Until they clean out these people and get the party united instead of being split between the wets and drys, they are only going further backwards. If it keeps up, I can see Bob Brown (if he sticks around that long) being the opposition leader in 2-3 elections from now. And, although I am mostly an ALP supporter, I do give Brown the credit of being able to read Howard like a book when no one else could.
Tom
ShowsOn
No argument I was just speaking in theory; Monbiot was considering the UK. My point wasn’t that hydro-storage was viable for pwoer storage in Australai, but that it was one of the very few currently viable energy storage mechanisms I have read of.
Adam
We use a huge amount of power per person (double Germany!) despite being a relatively low manufacturing economy, so I do think we could greatly reduce power consumption in Australia and still have a viable economy. raising teh price and tax incentives for indsutry capital investment to reduce power consumption woudl lead ot gradual solutions. However some current industries (eg aluminium smelting) would die. That isn’t a bad thing in my view, but not popular talk in a recession.
We would still need some base load power, and I would prefer that came from nuclear and gas, unless someone can get solar or geothermal to work very soon.
You can make weapons out of just about anything. Terrorists have killed more people with fertiliser than with nuclear materials so far. Is that an argument for banning fertiliser? No, it’s an argument for killing terrorists. I’m not interested in arguments against nuclear based on this kind of First Year LaTrobe Arts Student Leftist logic. I want to know what is the quickest affordable way to end our dependence on burning coal to make our economy function. If that turns out to be human sacrifice on top of a volcano at the Summer Soltice, that may have to be considered.
exacta mundo
we dont know enough about this comparitively new energy source.
The known dangers are scary enough. the unknowns Im betting are just as scary
tell that to the hiroshimans and nagasakians.
Socrates, thanks for that very sensible answer.
Lunch beckons…
As revenue from property transactions and GST falls each state budget is bound to go into debt unless they cut spending on services in a very stupid, NSW-like way.
But isn’t most aluminium smelted in Tasmania using hydro? Shouldn’t that count as a renewable energy success story?
LOL! Comparatively new? As in nearly 60 years old.
We know what burning coal does, global warming, climate change, if you do it long enough earth eventually becomes inhabitable for humans.
Australia didn’t bomb Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Another non-argument, well done!
Solar thermal is competitively newer than nuclear. That means we shouldn’t use it because it may have UNKNOWN DANGERS. Same goes for photo-voltaic, tidal, and wind power.
Adam,
“If that turns out to be human sacrifice on top of a volcano at the Summer Soltice, that may have to be considered.”
Is that what Pyne suggested should happen to Bernardi?
I agree Antony about everything you say on Pyne. His authority in the House will be weak on both sides (although Hockey’s was not that strong either, but lets leave that). But as far as the party goes I don’t think it is evenly divided (despite the numbers that brought in Turnbull), Turnbull’s grip has been very weak from the word go. He has few people he can call his own, the fact that one of them is Pyne just shows how weak it is. His position is much weaker than Howard’s (or Peacock’s) was in the 1980s when they were leaders in my view.
What I see is happening is that Turnbull is trying to normalise his position for a Liberal leader and it is his opponents that are calling it ‘provocative’. It is a tactic being used to undermine Turnbull by stronger opponents, not an objective assessment of Pyne’s appointment by a Liberal leader. This is supposed to be a leader-centric party that won’t let its leader run it.
As for Grattan, well as fellow journalist, I would not expect you to comment (although far more cheaper shots of Shanahan, Milne, Ackerman etc. etc. have been made on this site). But I seriously have not learnt anything from her articles for a while, she is too cautious on her assessments, since the Latham days I think. Hartcher has almost always been instructive, Shanahan and Milne (both as conduits of the Libs), but Grattan unfortunately not since Keating’s days.
ShowsOn
Tasmania maybe, but there is also large scale smelting in WA, Victoria and Qld, all powered by coal. I woudl rather the Tassie hydro power were put to better use. Aluminium smelting is a high-energy, low-job, low-value-adding industry that I wouldn’t miss if it weren’t here at all. The industry got its foot in the door in the 60s and 70s by playing off states against each other and conning them into getting ludicruously cheap long term power deals. Australia had some of the cheapest coal power supplies in the world. Qld virtually gave Comalco a billion dollar power station in Gladstone in the 80s. Meanwhile they take the alumina off shore for all the high value refining and manufacturing, so we are basically suckers to the Aluminium industry.
If my understanding is correct over 20% of all Australai’sgreenhouse emissions are due to two industries – aluminiium smelting and beef cattle (especially feed lots). Get rid of them alone and you would meet all required targets to 2020 with a GDP loss of less than 3%.
Shows
you disappoint me,when you are asked to give defined answers you return with invective and hyperbole
Thank god official ALP policy is for a non nuclear Australia.
Probably could have said that of Rudd in 2006… (hint to MT – good polls help get people in line!)
I think Hockey has a better idea of parliamentary procedure. Pyne always seems to be doing it wrong. Ever heard him move a suspension of standing orders? You’ll never stop laughing.
To be fair, Grattan started saying Howard was gone in March, 2007. She was ahead of the curve on that.
Anyone remember Albrechtson’s “game on” comment when Turnbull took over the Liberal leadership?
lololololol… and a bit more olololol.
Bob
Thanks for the reminder – I have a feeling that its now “blame on”.
Jim McGinty might quit politics
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/comments/0,21590,25080368-2761,00.html
It’s a shame, as he’s the greatest asset for the Barnett Government.
Well it is basically an electricity export industry.
I am using your argument. Tidal, wind, solar-thermal are all COMPARATIVELY newer than nuclear power, therefore they may have UNKNOWN DANGERS which should stop us from using them for fear they may kill us all.
If you can’t accept this argument, then you shouldn’t accept your own.
Also, who’s to say some country won’t use solar-thermal power principles to build a SOLAR THERMAL BOMB that will be used to kill thousands of people? Therefore we shouldn’t use solar thermal power on the grounds it will encourage countries to build solar thermal bombs. Same goes for photo voltaic and tidal power.
Again, this is simply a version of your own argument.
Socrates, Adam,
The answer to energy storage doesn’t lie in large systems, but rather in large numbers of highly distributed kilowatt scale systems. When matched with rooftop PV and controlled by the electricity utility, such systems would actually make PV a valuable generation resource for the grid rather than the ‘nuisance’ value it now has. Such a technology is seen as essential in every serious study of the future structure of national grids. Larger storage systems require duplication to achieve n+1 redundancy, effectively pushing them out past the cost/return tipping point (leaving aside the massively expensive power conversion kit you need with larger current flows through a single feed point). Highly distributed storage systems are much cheaper per megawatt, have inbuilt redundancy and reliability and provide additional benefits in power factor correction, grid voltage support and power reliability.
The good news is that there is an Australian Government sponsored trial going on right now with a Brisbane company that has developed such a system and looks like being one of the major technologies. Let’s hope we can keep it in Australia this time.
Perhaps the aluminium smelters could be made to run on cow-generated methane?
Just like Costello is for the federal Labor government.
Shows
So all those policy decisions by the ALP are misguided in your view?
Shows you just went and proved my @709 correct again.
Costello closes in on Turnbull
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25082089-601,00.html
bob,
Don’t need to remember, it’s right here, right now, right on!
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/game_on/
Admit it Gusface, you only support solar-thermal power because you want Australia to possess solar-thermal bombs. Be honest.
That’s your argument against nuclear power. You are saying that I actually want Australia to have nuclear weapons. If that sort of misleading nonsense is OK for you, then I’ll use it too.
Nice that Costello has made a pact with Turnbull. I just hope he remembers to get it in writing and secure it in a wallet.
Oh that is GOLD GG!
Line of the day! rofl
Shows
you are so ungracious in defeat
I see,in its own small way, that you are starting to see that you cant have nuclear power with out the attendant risk of weaponry.
Its a small start but I will hold out hope for you
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25082089-601,00.html
Thanks for the article Bree. Turnbull is dead, and by the time Costello takes over, not only will those 59% of those exit polled at the 2007 election not want him as PM, he’ll have even more people who won’t vote for him because he’ll be remembered as the one who destabilised his party for years after the election with his i’m not staying but i’m not going sit on the fence attitude.
Gusface, we can’t have nitrite fertiliser without the risk of weaponry either. Are you in favour of banning it?
Sorry Piping Shrike, but I still think everything I said lines up as ‘provocative’. All that the appointment has done is stir up parts of the party who were otherwise sitting back feeling sullen. With the appointment he’s picked a fight. I don’t know whether he meant to pick a fight. The fight would have occured anyway some time this year if the polls continue bad for the Liberal Party. I just can’t see a strategy about why it is in the Liberal Party’s or Turnbull’s interest to have a fight right now.
Adam
do you support official ALP policies on nuclear!
or you just into hatarsery for the sake of it
And you MUST be a supporter of solar thermal bombs, because you support solar thermal power. You can’t have solar thermal power without also having solar thermal bombs, it is just COMPLETELY OBVIOUS.
You should admit that you want lots of bombs, and are not actually interested in power at all. You are just trying to trick people.
Also, you are not considering the UNKNOWN RISKS of solar thermal power. Therefore I think it should be banned.
Gusface, I am making inquiries about a subject about which I freely admit I don’t know very much, with a view to clarifying my ideas. This debate is moving very fast as the climate change crisis escalates. What is sound policy today may be unsound tomorrow.
And on Pyne – I don’t think anyone here picked his appointment, so provocative or not, it was surprising. And surprising political appointments tend to be provocative. (because someone who expected to get it didn’t…)
Actually, the problem is you said Turnbull is trying to ‘normalise’ the position of the Liberal Leader. He’s not in the position to do that. Just think of when Andrew Peacock in 1985 tried to ‘normalise’ his position as Liberal Leader by demanding his Deputy John Howard resign for refusing to show complete loyalty. The Party wouldn’t have a bar of it and all Peacock did was find himself in the position where he had to resign.
This row is nothing of that magnitude, but it reminds me of why Leaders who don’t control the numbers shouldn’t pick fights in the party.
The preffered PM on Newspoll will be very interesting when Costello becomes leader. I predict something like (about 3 months out from the election):
Rudd 36%
Costello 52%
Undecided 12%
Gary, in the footage last night of Turnbull at Howard’s gig, he had that look about him. Knowing the tsunami is coming and not knowing how to get out of its way.
He looked like he had a bad case of fleas and didn’t know where to scratch next and had no idea how to stop the itch. He had a concerned look about him and his head was darting every which way.
Turnbull I think is realising that he is not up to the task. (who would be?) He is gone, history. Next please!
Shows
ummmmm Nuclear bombs already exist der
(am typing slow for your benefit)
g per g Nuclear is the most destructive weapon ever known
Do you support official ALP policy on Nuclear!
bob1234
From Albrechtsen’s “Game On” blog post, Sep 20 2008:
In Turnbull, Rudd has met more than his match and he will need to kick his jet fuel addiction and keep his eye on matters at home.
And this, from the last comment beneath her post, Sep 22 2008:
But conservatives take heart, as its unlikely that Turnbull will be allowed to contest the next election. Sleepy Pete is biding his time in the knowledge that the Libs will be looking for another “saviour” in the not-too-distant future. Costello’s stooges are quietly polishing the silver platter as we speak.
Gusface if you are just going to be abusive there is no point debating with you.
J M Keynes is back in fashion at the moment. Here is a famous Keynes quote: “When the facts change, I change my mind — what do you do, sir?” It is a relevant question in this context.
Why is this even a question worth asking when I’m not an ALP member?
I support nuclear power, which you choose to constantly misconstrue as support for nuclear weapons.
On this logic, your support for solar thermal power is actually covert support for solar thermal bombs.
Ah! So solar thermal bombs are OK now! Thank you for finally admitting that you support solar thermal bombs, and are only pretending to support solar thermal power.
Solar Thermal bombs are part of the UNKNOWN RISKS only if you haven’t completed a High School physics course.
Nuclear Weapons are not even in the risk register. They are logged under Issues: i.e. Real Problems like how do we secure nuclear waste for 10,000 years without inflicting future generations with an on-going operational expense.
Lest I seem too harsh on the Australian aluminium industry, I am aware that it employs 30,000 people. But in a population of 21 million that is less than 1/4 of one percent of total employment. Meanwhile it comsumes over 1/6th of all the electricity production.
Here are some figures from the indutries own entry on Wikipedia:
“Member companies of the Australian Aluminium Council produce 30 percent of global alumina sales and are collectively the fifth largest producer of aluminium. The Australian aluminium industry employs 30,000 workers and generates export earnings worth over $5.8 billion”
Sounds impressive till you realise that producing 30% of the world’s alumina, and less than 5% of the aluminium, means exactly what I said. Most of the alumina is smelted here because of our give-away power prices, then shipped elsewhere for refining into aluminium and manufacturing.
go and have a little cry- i’m sure you will feel better after
which is why the ALP opposes ANY form of nuclear
there is no “firewall” between power and weaponry
merely high grade aluminium
I was simply using Gusface’s logic, I wasn’t proposing it made any sense.
Moreover, it was Gusface that proposed nuclear power has “unknown risks”, which is utter rubbish. The risks are well known – radiation.
I was just making a point using satire.
This is untrue, it supports the export of uranium only to nations that are signatories to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.
Australia is a signatory to the nuclear non proliferation treaty, but you seem to think the risks of Australia building nuclear weapons are higher than all those countries we export Uranium to, INCLUDING USA, FRANCE, UK THAT ALREADY HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS!
Your stance on this issue is nonsensical.
Bree, Turnbull is dead, and by the time Costello takes over, not only will those 59% of those exit polled at the 2007 election not want him as PM, he’ll have even more people who won’t vote for him because he’ll be remembered as the one who destabilised his party for years after the election with his i’m not staying but i’m not going sit on the fence attitude.
I recall hearing all the outcries of Turnbull thrashing Rudd, and look what happened. The same will happen to Costello. He isn’t in government anymore, he’s in opposition, and untried as being in a leadership role in opposition. He’s hated by the public.
But keep thinking he has Rudd’s number, because your disappearance from this website will be so very amusing when we all see how bad Costello’s poll numbers are against Rudd.
Bree, you must be Tanya Costello in disguise!
This is untrue, it supports the export of uranium only to nations that are signatories to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.
Australia is a signatory to the nuclear non proliferation treaty, but you seem to think the risks of Australia building nuclear weapons are higher than all those countries we export Uranium to, including USA, Russia, France, and U.K. that… wait for it now… here it comes:
ALREADY HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS! LOL!
Costello’s two biggest problems: Work Choices AND the smirk!
And people will only need to be reminded what the Liberals did in 1996. They went to the election with barely any policy announcements, and after the election Australia was shocked with dramatic budget cuts in health/education/infrastructure. We didn’t know last time. We know this time. Australia won’t want that happening again.
I see that “John Howard warns disunity is death”. The only problem is that the Libs seem to interpret that as the death of the other side and that’s not necessarily such a bad thing.
Actually Piping Shrike, the more I look at your statements, the more I completely disagree with what you’re on about. Why bother with an ‘objective assessment’ of Pyne’s appointment? I suppose an objective assessment that it is no more or less provocative than Howard appointing a right-winger is one way of looking at it.
But I’d argue a subjective assessment is just as valid here. In the context of power relations in the Liberal Party, there are significant differences. Howard had strong control of the party, Turnbull doesn’t. Under some functionalist view of the world, they are both doing the same thing, trying to keep control of the party. But while the actions may be the same, that doesn’t mean everyone should analyse on the basis that the consequences should be the same. They clearly aren’t.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7899086.stm
Am I being very basic, or is this a way to save drought affected areas and the Murray?
Shows
Ummmm uranium is a resource
Nuclear is the industry that uses uranium and then processes that RESOURCE into power and weaponry
Hope that helps to clear your misunderstanding
3/10 but some very creative writing
Bree 735
Can you be more specific on those figures? Which election, in which decade, are you referring to that Rudd will be on 36% vs Costello 54%?
OTOH if those figures are for a poll of the Liberal party room in Canberra, with the Rudd voters representing Turnbull supporters and the undecideds still wanting Howard back, then I might agree.
Uranium is actually a metal, but hey don’t let facts get in the way of your story.
And by your ‘logic’, you can’t support nuclear power without supporting nuclear weapons.
So if you support the export of Uranium for power, you also support it being exported to make weapons.
Therefore, you support nuclear weapons.
Just admit it, stop pretending like when you pretended to support solar thermal power, but actually only supported solar weapons.
735 – Wishful speculation without any grounds for thinking this will be the case. He has never been popular.
Shows
I am sorry but all your “creative writing” does not sway me ( I much prefer the experts who helped draft ALP policy, which BTW you conveniently ignore as it links nuclear power and weaponry irrevocably)
we cant control what other countries do- but we most certainly can control what we do.
is a metal most knowledgeable people call it a RESOURCE as well,
Hope I have helped again to clear up your misunderstanding
but continue to split hairs if you like
YOU are the one that links nuclear power with nuclear weapons, not ME.
If YOU were consistent, you’d have to oppose Uranium exports on the grounds that it promotes the proliferation of nuclear weapons. (Which is the failed argument of the Labor Left).
But YOU are being inconsistent in your application of your own belief that nuclear power automatically leads to nuclear weapons.
You seem to think that nuclear power doesn’t mean nuclear weapons for all the countries we export Uranium to (including some that already have nuclear weapons!). However, you think that nuclear power means nuclear weapons in Australia! What makes Australia so different for all the countries that we have no governmental control over?
So if we can’t control what other countries do, why do we export Uranium to countries that already have nuclear weapons?
If we can control what we do, then surely we could use nuclear power without building nuclear weapons? But no, you are applying one standard to other countries, and a completely different standard to Australia. Which is completely and utterly nonsensical.
I think the main problem with cloud-seeding in southern Australia is that you need moisture bearing clouds in the sky to be able to seed. For the last 10 years or so that just hasn’t been happening over southern Australia (enough) – especially in wintertime. The rain bearing cold fronts that used to sweep across SA and Victoria during winter have been pushed further south by blocking high pressure systems.
Cloud seeding has been used in Tasmania since the 1940’s though, with some success – about a 5% increase in rainfall in trial areas compared to control areas according to this story : http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090202103012.htm
(This is perhaps another problem with cloud seeding though – yearly rainfall deficiencies in the Murray catchment are more like 50% over the last decade, so even a 5% increase in rainfall isn’t going to help much)
Actually the ALP official policy does- but dont let that get in the way of your logic
I do-you kept verballing me without actually asking
I believe eventually the export of uranium will cease.especially once the greens hold the BOP in the senate
So whats your argument now
I couldn’t care less what ALP policy says! I am not, nor have I ever been, an ALP member. What is this, the ‘Un-Austrailan Activities’ committee?
In your dreams. There is no way Labor would support a policy that would destroy thousands of jobs and dramatically increase world carbon emissions.
My argument is that you’ve never had an argument.
Crikey on the ball as always.
by that statement i presume you choose to ignore the overwhelming evidence that the GVT bases its policy on.
Good. stay in the dark
So why the hell have you got your knickers in a knot
Here is an amusing one -alan Greenspan has admitted itmight be best for the US to nationalsie some of its largest insolvent banks:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e310cbf6-fd4e-11dd-a103-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1
Quite funnt really – here the Liberals are still defending laissez faire capitalism when the people who invented it are admitting its failed. Best of luck, Joe Hockey.
Diog, Hillary is charming the pants off the Indonesians:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/02/20/clinton-ends-visit-with-charm-offensive.html
By the incredible receptions that she has received so far from Japan, Indonesia and Korea (with China next), it wont be long before the Asians demand that Obi steps down in her favour. Else they will withdraw their trillion dollar TREASURY SECURITIES.
BTW: How come OZ is so poor that we dont hold any.
http://www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
Andrew Landeryou’s musical tribute to the Liberal leadership fun and games.
http://www.vexnews.com/news/2940/follow-the-leader-a-musical-tribute-to-liberal-leadership/
Socrates @ 742,
You have got it slightly wrong there. Alumina is not smelted, it is a white powder which is converted into aluminium metal ingots by electrolysis, hence the enormous electricity demands for the process.
I think there are three Aluminium “Smelters” in Australia, one at Boyne Island at Gladstone with another one under construction there and two in Tasmania.
There is no doubt that costello will have a crack. The timing is crucial so that he maximises the bang for his buck. He will either go one year out from the next poll especially if the econmoy takes a dive, or if it hasn’t he’ll wait till the next term but half way in. He will not be able to sustain the honeymoon bounce for a full term and hardly from now. He will get an improvemenmt on the TPP (well it couldn’t be any worse than where it is now). If he waits til the next term he will move to the front bench first.
Just thought I’ld add, God he’s an ugly specimen. I didn’t relise his piggish snout lifted so much or has it got worse?
ALP policy is based on the internal machinations of a political party. If you think such machinations are based simply on best evidence you are deluding yourself.
The Labor party and the Government SUPPORT URANIUM EXPORTS. You must be the one in the dark on this issue because as of two posts ago you OPPOSE URANIUM EXPORTS.
Want to borrow a torch?
Socrates,
Peter Brent makes a good point regarding the motivations of various players re the stimpac:
“The Coalition rejected the stimulus package for the same reason overseas centre-right opposition parties – the Conservatives in Britain and the Republicans in the United States – voted against stimulus packages proposed by their centre-left governments. It made sense politically.
Note that in countries where centre-right parties are in power – Canada, for example, and New Zealand, Germany and France – stimulus packages are going ahead. Governments of all stripes are doing it. It’s what the International Monetary Fund wants and it sits firmly in Contemporary Orthodox Economics 101.”
http://inside.org.au/a-short-term-hit/
ShowsOn it is tough trying to be a voice of reason, well done keeping up the fight.
The ALP would never sell out jobs to cut carbon, because the fact is while they might reduce carbon emissions by the ETS they wouldnt do it to the extent the Greens want because that would be stupid and lead to carbon leaking.
The fact is we make our products and produce less carbon in doing so. Why on earth would we force massive job losses and destroy industry just to keep the latte drinkers in the Greens happy that they’ve done something because quite frankly if you cant get India, China and the US on board cutting our emissions by 20, 30 or 50% will make not a shread of difference other than cost jobs…
I wasnt upset with Labor’s ETS, i’ve got no idea what the Libs have as an alternative because they’ve not got a policy out so i cant compare if i was comparing between the ALP and the Greens id take the Laborites anyday.
Oh and vis a vis Uranium, Rudd changed the party policy on Uranium mining to destroy the stupid 3 mines policy of the past, they now support uranium being given to countries to fuel their nuclear power stations yet they have a problem with doing the same here, how hypocritical is that!
Maybe “smart” would be a better explanation!
didn’t Bob Hawke jump on the Nuc bandwagon and say we should have a worldwide Nuc dump in Aus as well as devveloping Uranium?
Looks like it is going to be a flat carbon tax, with all the money raised spent to compensate low and middle income earners.
I believe Greg Hunt is making a speech about it today.
And the country must be a signatory to the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty, which of course includes many countries that have nuclear weapons.
It is essentially impossible to have a reasoned debate on nuclear power when opponents set up the straw man that you are in fact supporting nuclear weapons.
But the recent poll with 43% in favour of nuclear power is promising. Instead of stupid WorkChoices, Howard should’ve legalised nuclear power when he won control of the Senate. If he did it early in the term it probably would’ve been forgotten about by the time of the election. In fact Howard could’ve said “it is the only realistic way to reduce carbon emissions” , signed Kyoto, and then effectively gone in with an as green policy as Rudd.
I don’t think so. It was a hugely controversial issue in Labor during the 80s. It took all sorts of arm twisting just to get the 3 mines policy through the National Conference.
I agree GG. But when you have prized your mantle as “superior economic manager” for a decade and then throw the economics textbooks in the bin to strike a political stance, you lose your credibility as well.
Of course the ALP and the Greens would have vetoed it whenever they got back into power ShowsOn but still yes, Howard’s crusade should have been Nuclear Power.
He fought it out for a year and a half and all he got was low road arguments from the ALP and he took hits in the polls…
I don’t know. Of course the Greens would’ve gone hysterical. But maybe Labor would’ve quietly just ignored it, and concentrated on the economy. (They wouldn’t of got it through until after the Senate change over in the middle of last year at the earliest).
He fought it at the wrong time. He should’ve just put it through after the Senate changed in 2005.
My prediction is that in 20 years time we will have nuclear power and civil unions for gay couples. Times change, people move on.
Glen, the issue of building a nuclear power plant had been there for ages. Howard had over 11 years to commence it. Only when he knew the floor was going to be wiped with his arse did he say he was interested in building one.
If all the Libs can do is realise its not electorally feasible to do it in government, then carp from the sidelines as they do oh so well in opposition, then Lib supporters don’t have the right to criticise.
ShowsOn, does building nuclear plants require legislation?
I strongly doubt a Liberal government could get it through the Senate without having control.
The Liberals opposed the stimulus package for political, not economic reasons. Labor is likely to do the same for nuclear power.
Yes. Because currently there is Commonwealth legislation that explicitly bans building nuclear power plants in Australia. At the last election, Howard was essentially trying to get a mandate to repeal that legislation.
The only nuclear reactor is the experimental / medicinal one at Lucas Heights, which I believe has a specific exemption in commonwealth law.
@777 no recently Shows on before the last election. i’m sure he did actually
Glen
I agree. Politically Workchoices split Howard’s supporters and united his (normally squabbling) foes. Whereas nuclear power would have split parts of Labor and the Greens. It would have been a much better issue for him to pursue.
The real USA
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/02/20/america/NY-Post-Cartoon.php
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/64348/thumbs/s-POST-large.jpg
No 786
The problem with Workchoices is not that it supposedly slashed wages, but that it added significantly more regulation than it purported to remove. The fairness test made it even worse to administer.
Shows,
love your line,one minute attack for exporting it,and when that fails,attack for not exporting it
dash it man, it is so hard to argue with such a flip/flop
BTW still awaiting an apology for being verballed
Does this apply to the ALP’s opposition to workchoices
or are you content to just cherrypick when it suits you
http://www.foe.org.au/media-releases/2005-media-releases/mr_5_10_05.htm
You are the King of Verbal for constantly accusing anyone who supports nuclear power of also supporting nuclear weapons.
The fact you can’t divide those two distinct issues in your brain is evidence that your hysterical opinion on nuclear issues isn’t worth reading.
GP,
The fact there needed to be a fairness test and the Libs accepted there needed to be one, implies that the legislation was flawed from the outset.
Gus and Shows On,
Why don’t you two get married and take your bickering indoors.
Could you be more irrelevant?
LOL! This coming from someone who supports the current Labor policy on domestic nuclear power, but the Greens policy on Uranium exports!
Stop being so funny.
does this logic then apply to the official ALP policy that states that nuclear power and weaponry are irrevocably linked.
Our William on Jim McGinty’s possibkle retirement.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/20/2496732.htm
(NB: I haven’t been posting for the last 24 hours because of this story) –
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2495528.htm
The Victim is my Uncle , and the Spokeperson has been mentioned here in regards ALP Preselection battles prior to the last State Election.
Your uncle was the guy shooting or the guy shot?
No 794
The legislation was flawed – deeply so. But not for the reasons that enunciated by union hacks.
Turnbull feeding the crocodile.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/turnbull-gives-costello-loyalist-a-boost-20090220-8dcy.html
The former
Morgan out
“After a week of arguing in Parliament about a new stimulus bill ALP support is 49% (down 2.5%) compared to L-NP support 36.5% (up 1%). On a two-party preferred basis, support for the ALP is 59.5% (down 0.5%), while support for the L-NP is 40.5% (up 0.5%).”
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2009/4360/
Ah well, in that case good luck to him.
no way. i thought 61/39 at least
Thanks
Though I do take issue with this from Perth Now:
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25076609-2761,00.html
Small problem, my Aunty has Dementia, cannot speak and is bedridden.
Centauur
Could still be – only 800 people in the samply so that’s within MOE
No 803
Statistically negligible changes.
An excellent qoute by Howard from his Howard lecture last night:
“As a newly-elected prime minister, Mr Rudd does not have the buffer of seats of the type enjoyed by Malcolm Fraser in 1975 or my newly-elected government in 1996″
GP
Yep.
Bree – he will have in 2010 of the Libs go this way much longer.
No 811
Adam, that depends largely on economic circumstances. I also suspect that Rudd will delay the ETS for fear of a backlash.
A majority of over 10 seats is good enough, I would imagine Bree.
Speaking of an ETS, a carbon tax makes more sense because it could be charged on both local and imported goods. As the ETS currently stands, tariffs will need to increase if leakage is to be curbed.
808 – True. They’re still a country mile in front.
No 815
Never have denied that.
Partly, and partly on the voters’ perception of how Rudd has handled those circumstances, and whether the Opposition offers a credible alternative. At present the polls show that the voters give credit to Rudd’s efforts to prevent a recession, and do not believe that the Opposition offers any alternative. If that preception persists for another 18 months, Rudd will increase his majority in 2010.
Though I should say that 2PP polls this far out from an election are meaningless.
GP,
Your 812, no delay. It’s full steam ahead and damn the torpedos.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/20/2496972.htm
GP,
I’d rather be 60/40 in a meaningless poll than 40/60.
816 – I realise that. I was only making the point that when you’re that far ahead any small change is irrelevant.
Wong has been very firm today that the government is pressing ahead with the CPRS. There can be compromises around the edges, but not on the substance, which of course is already a compromise. If it fails in the Senate it won’t be the government’s fault.
No 819
If unemployment rises to more than 7%, as the Government consistently says it will (despite spending over $50 billion to negative that upward trend), the Government’s case will look increasingly weak – i.e. imposing new costs on business and impediments to job creation at a time of economic recession.
Not if they lead the fall of a Liberal leader…
The big jump this week was the ALP on the “Who do you think wil win the next election” question – up from 63 to 67.5%
but will the LNP’s case look stronger?
Politics is a tennis match.
No 825
Should unemployment rise to more than 7%, the Liberal case is simple: the ETS will cost jobs, jobs, and more jobs! In an election year, this would be sensitive for Rudd.
That depends on what view the voters form about the reality of the CC crisis. There are some things more important than jobs. In 2007 they decided that fairness in the workplace was more important. In 2010 they may decide that dealing with CC is more important. On the other hand they may fall for your populist exploitation of CC-denialist lies. We’ll see.
826 – This assumes Rudd will do nothing more. It also assumes the Libs will have an answer to the unemployment problem. WorkChoices possibly?
No 827
Adam, I’m not a CC-denialist. Please don’t verbal me.
Left of field, but this story is shockingly awful in its revelations:
http://reason.com/news/show/131527.html
That makes your cynical exploitation of fear about the employment consequences of a CPRS even worse. At least CC-denialists are acting in accordance with their beliefs.
Andrew Robb looks and sounds so miserable on the tube, he makes Frank Sartor of NSW looks like Kylie Minogue
No 831
How is it a cynical exploitation? There’s no use implementing an ETS to save our environment if it crashes our economy or leaves people overly dependent on government welfare.
And just to think he was the Liberal Right’s candidate for Shadow Treasurer.
Do you honestly think a 5% cut in 11 years time will cause this? Because if you do, you have just condemned the Liberal policy, which is for a 5% cut using different methods (a straight carbon tax).
You can only say that if you don’t believe in the seriousness of the CC threat. A crashed economy can always be uncrashed. Once we are past the CC tipping point – and it now seems we are very close to it – there is no return.
I’m sorry Shows On, I can’t take you seriously on nuclear power after this.
At last a site coming to Crikey that will bring some of the journalistic clowns to task, not just Bolt and Blair.
http://blairboltwatch.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/pure-poison/#comment-14798
Gary Bruce, it’s already up.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/
I’m sorry Oz, I can’t take you seriously on nuclear power after this.
Nuclear bombs require very highly enriched Uranium 235 that is unsuitable for use in nuclear reactors.
The debate in Parliament should not be about an ETS vs. another type of ETS vs. a Carbon Tax. Those are just mechanisms to achieve a goal. Labor has stipulated what their goal is, the Greens have, the Coalition hasn’t, Xenophon hasn’t and Fielding hasn’t. Until that is argued and sorted out any ETS vs. Carbon Tax debate is meaningless. Once Parliament has agreed on a target then there should be an inquiry into how best to achieve that target. The targets are political. The ways of reaching them are largely scientific and engineering challenges – the answer is not going to come out of Turnbull or Rudd.
Nuclear power plants can use Plutonium 239 or Uranium 235.
Nuclear weapons can use Plutonium 239 or Uranium 235.
The decomposition (or fissioning) of Uranium 235 in a nuclear power plant can create Plutonium 239.
You were wrong. e
Frank Calabrese, a few points.
Firstly, my sympathy to your uncle and your family in regard to your ordeal. No one should have to go through this.
Secondly, is his wine any good? If it is, at $2.50 a litre it is an absolute bargain!
Thirdly. it is somewhat unfortunate is it not, that he advertises his vinegar alongside his wine at only $2 a litre …
Fourthly, what do you make of this happening under a Liberal Government’s watch? Surely Laura Norder will be biting them on the bum over this, and similar outrages which are occurring almost hourly. Poetic justice for these hypocrites., in a macabre sort of way.
Fifthly, your female cousin is intelligent and gorgeous, is she married? If not, I have a few single male relatives, maybe we can do business ….
-e.
Good work failing to mention the level of enrichment. Well done.
The level of enrichment is irrelevant. Yours was an incorrect blanket statement. You did not say “Nuclear weapons require enriched uranium” (which still would have been wrong) you said “Nuclear weapons require plutonium” (which was wrong).
Time to move on.
And your statement is wrong. You are probably like Gusface as well who can’t debate nuclear power without talking about nuclear weapons. Time to move on.
Frank Calabrese @ various
Bastards
I’m sure he will be fine (charges wise) and I sincerly hope this doesn’t affect him or your Aunty too much Frank (wishfull thinking I know but hopefully)
Before you all start, I was joking.
About the vinegar, at least.
Our very own William Bowe:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/20/2496732.htm
We bought some wine from one of those roadside vineyards.
Bloke ambled down to the cellar and filled a a 2 litre flagon from a flask, great drinking and great value.
(734) Antony, at the risk of raiding an old argument I’ve been looking at your posts and trying to work out what we are disagreeing about. The point I think is the dynamic of what is going on in the Liberal Party. Right now. the way you seem to be portraying it (if I am reading you correctly), it as though things are very sensitive at the moment and any move by Turnbull to pick a fight would be provocative.
I don’t see it like that. For the last three months there have been deliberate moves to undermine Turnbull – whether he does anything or not. The rebellion in the Senate in December was a case in point. Against that Turnbull is in a weak position and what is happening is that any move by Turnbull to put his people in is being used as an excuse to undermine him further.
If I recall, your example of Peacock sacking was actually a good one. It wasn’t Peacock’s sacking of Howard that was ‘provocative’, it was of course Howard’s refusal to give assurance as deputy that he would not challenge for the leadership. It put Peacock in an intolerable position – he was damned if acted, damned if he didn’t. This is often the way it happens in the Liberals, to engineer it looks as though its the other guy that is being disruptive. That is what is happening to Turnbull now. The ones who want to undermine Turnbulll are portraying him as the trouble-maker.
News today on Wizard Home loans that shows seriousness of credit/ financial crisis.
Wizard, owned by GE money and now sold to Aussie home loans, have said they won’t pass on any of rate cut. But customers can swap to Aussie without any payout penalty.
Wizard said it is because of tight funds in international markets.
But may also be a way of closing Wizard books and forcing all customers to Aussie.
Be interesting to see if Aussie charge those swapping application, valuation and other fees etc. Otherwise may look like forcing people to change and Aussie gets a bonus from all those fees.
still smarting from me smacking you ass are we?
official death toll from the fires now 209.
LOL!
Incoherent nonsense doesn’t count as an ass smacking.
Piping
Didn’t Peacock call a leadership spill over the tensions with Howard, which he promptly lost, or was it the other way round.
Maybe Turnbull should do the same, he only beat Nelson by 4, but Nelson has announced his retirement. It would be a brave test and effectively say give me the power to reform the party or sack me. With Nelson going now might be the right time, especially as opponents may be unprepared and may not want all the disruption.
I think you are right, Antony refered to it a few pages ago. Peacock tried to sack Howard for being disloyal, but instead it ultimate resulted in Peacock losing his position as leader.
If he did this my guess is that Nelson would run.
(857) I think Peacock tried to get Howard replaced, lost, and resigned himself, leaving Howard to take over.
It looks Turnbull doesn’t have the numbers to anything, I notice he has appointed a Costello guy to keep them happy. My guess is he will die by a thousand cuts until he throws it in. But god knows what will happen. It looks even a little too unstable for the old guard.
I do think a big hit for him came with the loss of the coalition’s meaningless lead in Newspoll’s economic management.
Speaking of Howard.
great to hear him talking and defending Work Choices and Abbott and co still expressing their love for him. Should be more of it.
Also on Howard, labors enquiry in bank fees loan structures and such gives lie to his statement about deregulation and capitalism gone mad.
No guts no glory, better than the death of a thousand cuts if he called a spill.
He wins he has control of the party and can reform it.
He loses, he goes to the backbench and tries again in a couple of years after the libs are wiped out at the next election, with a sense of justification of his position.
In your case anything relating to nuclear,that you try and defend, is a rolling ass smack
But i think you knew that anyway
This is probably a really bad time to link this but I’m feeling mischievous so I’ll fan the flames.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f367aada-fec8-11dd-b19a-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1
Who the hell is Mitch Fifield?
Oh gosh Today Tonight!
They managed to spin the possible $35 raise in pension into some negative on the government… how about Abbot’s comments?
Another fat bloke.
He was in the papers a bit last year for being pushed by the Young Libs into setting up a review into academic bias at universities.
How soon we forget!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dY9gtYeHhk
I wonder if Adam is opposed to Iran having enriched uranium. If so, the extension of his logic earlier in the thread would lead to an opposition of Iran having fertiliser as well.
Fifield doesn’t look fat in the photos on the net. He does look revoltingly cleancut, a lot like Bernardi. I bet his nickname is “Fifi”.
I am in favour of nuking Iran. We’ve been over this before, remember?
LOL. I thought you were going to say that of course you opposed Iran having fertiliser as you hoped they would all starve to death!
I forgot.
It’s not like Fifield’s becoming PM or anything, but this article from when he first entered the Senate details his closeness to Costello and the links his family has to Labor.
He’s plump, at least. I’m sure bob1234 will back me up.
Link:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/27/1080330985505.html?from=storyrhs
If Australia pulls through the GFC as per described by the Reserve Bank Gov:
Then the Labor Party would have smashed forever the myth that the Liberals are “superior economic manager”. If so, Hat tip to the Gang of Four.
And condemn Cossie to another 20 years of waiting for Godot. As the young Mr. Grace would say: “You have all done very well”.
Fifield is just big-boned.
He’s no fatter than most MPs and Senators. He’s certainly not in Bozzy’s league.
Finigans @ 874
That would be the same reserve bank that 6 months ago was raising interest rates to slow down the economy.
And it worked…
Adam , 2 questions re ETS . How many jobs are you prepared to sacrifice and what effect will the proposed ETS have on global climate.
Adam @878
How would you rate the economic forecasting prowess of the RBA?
877 – What part of “IF” are you having trouble understanding?
I think the RBA last raised interest rates 12 months ago.
Time flies in opposition.
(PS Back minus one melanoma – yeah
)
Better than every other outfit in the country with daylight coming a long second.
That’s a tough weight loss regime Rua!
Possum
Lovely sewing skills – the CWA would be ptoud,
Second question I am not qualified to comment on.
First question: If the current forecasts of climatologists are correct, and we have to assume that they are, Australia is headed for an ecological and thus an economic disaster as a result of global warming. We are probably the most vulnerable to the effects of warming of all advanced countries. Therefore we have a literally vital interest in the success of the effort to cut carbon emissions in time to prevent global warming reaching an irreversable tipping point. Since we are responsible for only 1% of gobal emissions, nothing we do will have much of a *material* effect. But since we are one of the largest per capita emitters, what we do has a much larger *political* effect. We cannot expect the big three emitters – the US, China and India – to make economic sacrifices if we are not prepared to do likewise, and do it first. Thus, my answer is, I am prepared to sacrifice whatever is necessary to achieve the necessary outcome. Of course that is my view and not the government’s view. The government’s view is that we have to start with what is politically achievable now, hence the current rather weak ETS proposal.
ooops proud.
Including Treasury?
That’s my view – it’s not universally shared. Some say they’re equal.
ruawake
Hope it went well.
It’s clear the Libs and their supporters are hoping the RBA Governor is wrong.
Good to have you back ru.
Adam @ 886
I admire your faith in the predictions of climate modellers. As a farmer who lives and dies by the weather and it’s various cycles and variability I am far more “sceptical”. The point of my post was however to illustrate that the political equation once the ETS economic modelling is released is simply how many jobs lost Vs effect on climate. e.g. if I am a worker in the alumina industry and I’m told I must lose my job to alleviate CC then I might say thats OK but what will my sacrifice acheive?. (please don’t crap on about green jobs because they don’t exist without heavily distorting govt subsidies)
Why should your understanding of the weather pattern’s in your own area apply to the entire planet? Anecdotal evidence is an insufficient grounds to base crucial public policy decisions on.
Aluminium refining only exists because the cost of doing it doesn’t take into account the amount of pollution released by coal fired power stations. Your argument works both ways.
Climate is not weather trueblue, the observations you have can be entirely consistent with cc
Trueblue, so I take it when you are sick, you prefer your “scepticism” to the professional advice of your doctor? Good luck with that.
* If you think the weather you see on your farm is a reliable indicator of global climate, you obviously know nothing about climate science, and would do well to listen to people who do.
* I already explained what will be achieved by the sacrifices any meaningful carbon emissions scheme in Australia will entail – whether it’s Rudd’s ETS or Turnbull’s carbon tax. It will increase the likelihood of a global agreement on reducing emissions, which is vitally necessary for Australia.
* As a farmer you have a larger stake in the success of this effort than just about anyone, unless you think you can find a market for dust.
#877 – yes, 6 months ago was 20/8/2008. And then there was 15/9/2008, the day that Lehman Bros went bankrupt. Nothing and everything in the financial world have been the same ever since. Obviously you cannot count.
In the dying days of the Keating Labor Government, one Labor MP said “Queenslanders will be waiting for Paul Keating with baseball bats on Saturday March 2″
Will it be the same for Anna Bligh?
Adam@896
The mean rainfall for my town is 478mm (bom data) The driest decade at my property occurred between 1891-1900 387mm. The wettest decade 1961-70 536mm . So far this decade average right on the mean. What does this tell me?.The climate is changing!!
Trueblue, next time there is a raging bushfire coming towards your property, stand on your front porch and close your eyes. Since you won’t be able to see it, therefore it won’t be happening, and you’ll be quite safe. Trust me, it works every time.
Finnigans@897
We’re splitting hairs. The fact is that despite the sub prime mortgage issues being current for some 18 months the reserve bank completely missread the situation. Now it would appear the govenor has some miraculous ability to predict the next 2 years.
trueblue are those daily, weekly, monthly, yearly rainfall figures?
Adam@899
Won’t happen at my place . Controlled burning in the spring and strict adherence to
fuel reduction is the result of hard lessons learnt by my family over the 150 years we’ve been here.
ruawake@901
annual
The question is why anyone should believe your word over the bulk of science which demonstrates climate change is occurring.
Rainfall doesn’t imply temperature. In the small town I live the mean rainfall for February is 12.6mm. This the ENTIRE YEAR so far we are on 1.6mm
trueblue – do you mind if i split my own hair. it hurts.
Average yearly rainfall in my town is 544mm. Last year it was 402mm. Not as bad as 2006 when it was 287mm.
Because my anecdotes are more important than a system of knowledge based on logic and evidence!
Obviously Trueblue is not actually interested in learning anything about the subject, he just wants to make smartarse political remarks. Fortunately for fools like him, there are some people in this country who both know what is going on and are determined to do something about it. Even more fortunately for him, those people are currently in government. If we are lucky, he will be saved from his own smug stupidity without any effort being required from him. If we are not lucky, he will fry with the rest of us.
Itep@904
I don’t question the climate is changing , the question is why? While you and others on this blog would deny it there is considerable debate as to the cause.
Getting back to my original point , the political equation is jobs vs some theoretical impact on the climate. I think it will be a lot harder to sell to the electorate when they are focussed in an election campaign than many people think. Word is Wayne Swan agrees.
trueblue
You either have a reliable source of water, irrigate or run a cactus farm.
The question isn’t “why”. Even if human activity had absolutely nothing to do with climate change, it would be left to human’s to figure out how to fix it.
Or would you endorse a policy of just waiting for the planet to slowly become inhabitable? You know, like a frog in room temperature that has been set to boil.
trueblue
a good site to get info and actually find useful links is LP
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/16/germanys-nuclear-dilemma/
although not in full agreement with evreything quoted , i found it to be a good starting point
ps what do you farm? crops,cattle…
and do you use ,or are you aware, that the CSIRO also has some great info.
http://www.csiro.au/science/ClimateWeather.html
There is no debate amongst CLIMATE SCIENTISTS trueblue
No there is not.
Shows on @ 908
1954 274mm
1955 782mm
So what . Its natural variability. I used decadal measurements in an earlier post to show that at my location there has been longer term variations in the climate. I’m not convinced that the current temperature increase of the last 30 years is not part of a natural cycle.
Gusface@914
The CSIRO are fond of quoting a 30% drop in rainfall for S.W. West Aust. since the 1960s. While this is correct at my location in the centre of the S.W. rainfall rose 30% to the 1960s. I smell a political agenda.