The latest weekly Essential Research survey has Labor’s two-party lead narrowing from 62-38 to 59-41. There are also interesting breakdowns on attitudes to the budget and the retirement age by employment and self-identified social class: office workers think the higher retirement age fair, tradesmen and manual labourers very much the opposite, while class reaction to the budget is how you would traditionally expect with Labor in power. The survey also finds the public slightly more receptive to a senior role for Peter Costello than they were three months ago.
Other news:
• Two challengers have emerged against incumbent Dennis Jensen in the Liberal preselection for Tangney – neither of whom is Matt Brown, who defeated Jensen in the local vote ahead of the 2007 election only to have the result overturned on the intervention of John Howard. Andrew Probyn of The West Australian reports the conteders are Alcoa government relations and public policy manager Libby Lyons, last seen angling for the state seat of Nedlands (and apparently the granddaughter of Joseph Lyons), and Toyota Finance executive Glenn Piggott.
• The ABC reports that Tasmanian David Bartlett has “reconsidered” his original proposal for fixed elections on March 20 after “consultation with key stakeholders”, which hopefully includes Antony Green (the move would have set up a permanent clash with elections in South Australia). He instead proposes to allow a future Premier “flexibility” within a three-month period, similar to what Colin Barnett is advocating in Western Australia. An draft that was being circulated for consultation early in the year allowed for early Legislative Assembly elections if the Legislative Council so much as blocked a bill the Assembly deemed to be “significant”, and provided for an Assembly election in the event of a no-confidence motion or if the Council blocked supply.
• Staying in Tasmania, David Bartlett helpfully puts out a press release each time a Labor candidate is nominated for next year’s state election – the latest being Franklin candidate Kate Churchill, whose role as operations manager of Colony 47 would appear to make her a community organiser in the Barack Obama mould.
• Andrew Landeryou at Vex News runs a scan of an Australian Financial Review report that the Labor national executive “may be asked to run preselections for state seats in the western suburbs of Melbourne to try to defuse factional tensions before the election next year”. As Landeryou puts it, “Some say this is code for a cross-factional and multi-sub-factional agreement that the member for Keilor George Seitz be encouraged to retire”, following the state Ombudsman’s recent probings into Brimbank City Council and their bearing on the state preselection for the 2008 Kororoit by-election. Landeryou raises his eyebrows at the assertion that the arrangement’s backers, said to include Kim Carr of the Left and Bill Shorten of the Right, want preselection for Brendan O’Connor’s federal seat of Gorton taken out of local hands, as there as been no suggestion he might be troubled.
• Writing in The Australian’s weekly State of the Nation wrap-up of state politics, Imre Salusinszky returns to a favourite theme: the unlikelihood of an early federal election given the need for “mini-redistributions” if the redistributions for New South Wales and Queensland are yet to be finalised. In particular, he notes that a mini-redistribution would have to create three Coalition seats from two (Fadden and Moncrieff) in Queensland, while merging two Labor seats (Sydney and Lowe) in New South Wales – as well as giving the Coalition a stick with which to beat Labor for calling an election under such inopportune circumstances.
2,080 Comments
Wow Brissiden on ABC said that the Liberals are formulating their position on the CPRS in their party room meeting tomorrow.
Oz,
There’s no point in arguing with the screeching harridans GG and Ruawake, they don’t understand context in environmental considerations. They didn’t when we were discussing windpower either.
From previous thread.
GG, another unholy alliance. It’s becoming a habit now for the GREENS. How long before it turns to Brown?
Oh joy. Yet another ETS position from the Libs since the election. Are they in double figures yet?
Oh, we understood the context.
We determined fairly clearly that the Greens position on wind farms is that they support them unless there’s a chance someone might be upset by one.
Well, this is it. This is where they decide which way they will vote in the Senate on the legislation.
Not necessarily. My bet is that they decide to delay any Senate vote.
LOL
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25536513-5005962,00.html
Zoomster
It’s very disappointing when otherwise rational people devolve into nothing more than barracking. Especially after we had such a long discussion about it.
Makes me sad.
Finns
droll,
very droll
perhaps we should allow a party like FF or One nation to hold the balance of power
Imagine what we could achieve and how much whitebread we could all eat.
Astrobleme – true, but I forgive you.
The “Coalition/Green alliance becoming a habit” meme is funny because it ignores the fact, that for better or worse, The Greens are Labor’s best friend in terms of preferences and Senate support.
William, wasnt the Kororoit by-election in 2008?
Oz
It also makes absolutely no sense.
Would Labor be in government without Greens preferences? I doubt it.
ShowsOn
I’ve said it before — there’s a lot of ALP bashing on this blog, not JUST from Glen and GP, which I usually let go through to the keeper because it’s not worth bothering about.
We ALPers understand that that’s the price you pay for being in government – you can’t live up to the impossible standards set by some people, so you just wear the criticism.
BUT if one points out a simple fact- as I did, as was proved by the fervent Geen responders, who simply reinforced my original point, that there was NO Green policy supporting wind FARMS and only one reference to wind farms in the 2007 platform – about the Greens, it unleashes a torrent of criticism.
Where have all those posters gone to, by the way? Made me think of all the times there’ve been posts here saying how the nasty majors have hacks on stand by to flood sites when necessary…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25524934-2702,00.html
The proposed ETS locks in failure – emmissions just cannot drop fast enough. The US is also acting woefully. Where to look for hope? Scandinavia maybe?
The Government shouldn’t wait for Copenhagen, they should bring the bills to the Senate ASAP and make it a DD trigger.
Completely depressing episode of Australian Story. A bloke tries to help people, and tries to accept people for who they are, but instead he gets spied on and has his church closed down.
Given that a lot of posters here have indicated that they don’t believe they need to cut their standard of living at all in order to prevent climate change, no ETS target is likely to be acceptable to the Australian people.
You can’t expect governments to do what you as an individual won’t accept.
I find it all very depressing.
Gus, is there any money in this? if yes, Pauline will be in it.
Astrobleme,
We’ve seen posters like you come and go. If you have something that adds value to the discussion (faux concern and finger pointing to control discussion does not count) you may be a valuable acquisition. However, “tut tut” trolling about like you do is fairly transparent and at this stage and you can be safely ignored as a Greens plant.
Am happy to see you put up your own opinions instead of riffing off other contributors.
Might be stretch though.
Get Libby Lyons in Tangney could she be ministerial material???
She would probably be more so than Jensen could ever be and that’s without knowing a thing about her.
We really need to make use of these safe seats and get good hard working MPs who have the potential to take big roles in the party Tangney is one such seat.
Don’t you people read William’s posts??? Labor has a potential problem brewing with the unions about raising the pension age. Swan refused to budge on waiving it for manual workers today. The unions aren’t happy. Just as well Gillard flip-flopped on union members being able to avoid tax with their share allocations.
Glen,
What about Higgins, Ryan, O’Connor and Berowra.
Jensen hasn’t even qualified for the pension.
You want the granddaughter of a keynesian and ex-Labor MP? Bwahahaha.
When did William make you an administrator?
Jensen doesnt deserve it GG.
He’s an underperformer…
Plus the Libs need more competent women in the party i mean it is woeful that only Bishop and whatsherface sit on the main front bench section. I dont advocate for affirmative action or Emily’s List, but when a capable woman comes around who has something to contribute and has good potential we ought to draft them in.
Zoomster
Do you not remember the very long discussion we had re: windfarms?
It seems you have a short memory.
GG
I was just pointing out you were doing exactly what you are currently accusing me of.
I reckon he will conduct quite a performance in the Liberal partyroom meeting tomorrow morning. I’m sure he will talk a lot about how it is getting hotter on Neptune as well as Earth, and that it isn’t anything to worry about.
A very disturbing story on 4Corners. The do-gooders always make me wonder.
ShowsOn,
The king of cut and paste riffers. Your ears must be burning.
Your point!
ShowsOn,
How long have you been troubled by priests? It seems to be a recurring theme in your posts?
You want the granddaughter of a keynesian and ex-Labor MP? LOL
ShowsON
“The Government shouldn’t wait for Copenhagen, they should bring the bills to the Senate ASAP and make it a DD trigger.”
When we discussed this the other day various posters made it clear it wasn’t in the Govts interests to bring this forward and get it happening. Despite all the claims that the Greens are delaying the CPRS, it’s just not so. The only way it can pass is if the Libs say yes. Sadly the Govt want this to linger so they can bleed the Libs.
ShowsOn
Well if the senate votes to postpone the vote then what can they do? It would look rathr silly to have a DD over whether the senate should debate the ETS. There would be no joint-sitting for the actual ETS and it could still be blocked.
I’d prefer we had a worthwhile CPRS before Copenhagen but in its absence no ETS is better. The question is; what would a cross-party endorsed negotiating mandate look like?
The Nationals say they are ready for the vote so technically the Government would only need to convince Xenophon or Fielding to support the legislation being considered.
Astrobleme
Do not let GG think that GG is getting away with bullying you. Its best to just ignore him or her. The day will come when GG crosses the line and William bans him or her.
Heyson Molotov
Cheers
Astrbleme,
See, you can offer an opinion. Elephant stamp for you.
However, actually, Labor are happy to create a double dissolution trigger if the CPRS legislation is not passed in June. So, you got that wrong.
ltep
If I’ve got the maths right then that should read:
The Nationals say they are ready for the vote so technically the Government would only need to convince Xenophon AND Fielding to support the legislation being considered.
As someone in Crikey pointed out (can’t remember who), Labor probably patted themselves on the back when the left-wing unions came out and opposed the changes. Makes them look balanced and reasonable.
I just have no idea why you think you have the right to tell other people what and how they should post. Who made you moderator?
How long have you had a problem with logic? It seems to be lacking in all your posts.
It’s certainly in the Government’s interests to have a D.D. trigger.
They can’t do that. The opposition can just vote against the second or third readings, which is the equivalent of rejecting the legislation.
No. The only way the legislation could be delayed is if the Senate voted to delay it. Equal votes result in the question being negatived. So an equal vote is all the Government needs.
G.G. doesn’t need to be banned. He just needs to learn that people can post however they like, as long as they follow the standing orders.
The vote isn’t going to happen until July. It would then need to be blocked again during the spring sitting in the last week of October. The Copenhagen meeting is in the first week of December. So, if the Government plans this well, either they have the scheme legislated by then, or they rock up to Copanhagen with a D.D. trigger in the bag.
ShowsOn,
As one of the leaders of the pack who ran “Ron” off the reservation you have no shame.
I have never said anyone can or cannot post here. I only point out that their credibility is somewhat limited imho if they continue a particular line.
I notice you have persevered despite my criticisms of your style. Good for you.
Oh yeah, of course – a motion has to be past. But what about ShowsOn’s post:
Is that true? The minority does it all the time in the US which they cant do here but I would have though that the majority could choose to postpone a vote?
The Senate can’t do this. If the Senate votes against the second or third reading of the bills, then that means the legislation has been voted down.
Mr X has said he wants the ETS vote to go ahead.
GG
If you are not nicer to us lefties, I will be forced to bring up the Crows vs Carlton match on the weekend.
27
Absolutely. It began with me saying that there was one reference to wind farms in the Greens 2007 Federal policy platform and it ended proving that that was right.
Oh, and you invented a policy for the Greens to try and explain why they had such a poor record of support for wind farms.
GG
Seems you got it wrong…
Yep, the oh so pures don’t like it when their wishy washy economic vandalism is exposed. And if you listen to commercial talkback radio and TV, the great unwashed make no bones that they regard the Greens as a bunched of drg smoking, dole bludging feral.
Remember, Rudd has to conving the SWINGING voter who’s worried about his job and mortgage – and they would throw Rudd out before you could say Soy Latte if there is anty legislation which impacts on jobs.
Zoomster
Why does there need to be more than one? Do you need two policies?
My recollection is you asked for one reference where the Greens supported wind farms.
I gave you three.
You decided that wasn’t enough.
We gave up because you couldn’t bothered actually doing any research.
“Oh, and you invented a policy for the Greens to try and explain why they had such a poor record of support for wind farms.”
You’re lying or confusing me with someone else.
I never told Ron not to post here.
Wow, good for you.
It just demonstrates your inability to engage with my posts.
Under his my way or the highway route, as espoused by Christine Milne today.
Zoomster
You also chucked a huge sook, whining that I was being mean to you or some rubbish. That’s the last time I apologise to you.
Diogs,
You a lefty???? Can just imagine you down on the docks with your fellow bruvvers.
Bet you a copy of this years budget papers Carlton finsihes above Adelaide at the end of the home and home round.
CHK Chk Ke-Boom. “Hasta la vista, Baby; I’ll be back”: So said the Temporary Terminator.
I can’t see the sense in voting against the ETS, in the hope that something better comes along.
Firstly, a DD isn’t guaranteed, and there’s no guarantee a DD will result in a Labor/Greens balance of power – it’s likely on present polling, but we’ve seen unexpected election results before.
Similarly, if Labor goes full term, there’s no guarantee that (i) they win (ii) they win with a Senate majority.
So we’re throwing away the chance of an ETS for the possibility of a better one in the future – at least a year away, whichever scenario you look at – and being told it’s the most urgent and important problem we face at the same time.
Explain to me why this isn’t as silly as Senator Fielding saying that his refusal to vote for the alcopops tax was putting the distillers on notice.
He also refused to vote for legislation on the grounds that he thought there’d be a chance to improve it later.
Whoops, mea Culpa, I though it was Bob Brown asaying that
But then again didn’t Mr X wanted some concession for the Murray-Darling ?
Of course the Senate can delay legislation. It can agree to a motion that the the bills be made an order of the day for 1 December or something like that.
Alternatively it can extend the reporting date of the Senate inquiry into the bills, which would in effect do the same thing.
Actually we decided that the Greens policy on wind-farms was that they supported them on most farming and industrial sites unless there was an environmental concern, which happened on at least three occasions.
ShowsOn 53,
Your genius and erudition is clearly not appreciated by GG and others. Dont go quietly rage agains the light.
RFinns,
This could be the biggest comeback since Lazarus!
61
Diog, that’s what Astrobleme said. He couldn’t actually point to any evidence that there was such a policy, however.
‘Environmental concerns’ seemed to be code for people saying they thought wind turbines were ugly.
Diogenes
Thank goodness there is a rational voice amongst the cheerleading.
Goodnight all
Aka a NIMBY approach – bugger cheaper clean energy, just save the sacred animals.
Oh no, don’t tell me GG is a fellow Carlton supporter? Arg! Its enough to get me to support my home team of Adelaide in any match between the two!
PS can we please not discuss anymore football (except maybe proper football ie ’soccer’)
bob1234 why not???? Lyons after Menzies and Howard was the best Non-Labor PM we’ve ever had.
Think of it this way. If the Liberals decide to support it, then it passes irrespective of how the Greens, Nats and Xenofielding vote.
If the Liberals want to delay the vote until after Copenhagen, the Nats, Greens and Labor will still ensure it goes to a final vote, which Labor will vote for, and the Nats, Greens and Liberals will vote against. The Greens and Nats want to vote against it ASAP remember, the Liberals can’t stop a final vote from happening.
Speaking of NIMBYS and Wind Farms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo2rMj8KVtQ
Corrected.
THM,
The things that unite us are more important than those that divide us.
Who said that?
Because you New Righties of the Howard mould hate keynesians… you equate them to communists. Especially GP.
Menzies would be turning in his grave…
*mold
Harry Hutton.
Dunno but yeah okay.
Your inability to engage in debate is appreciated by all others.
Senators can’t date notices of motion that far into the future.
The government will win any division to bring the bills to a final vote because the Nats and Greens want the opportunity to vote against the bills.
William,
Close, but someone also said it closer to home.
GG
How dumb do you think I am!!!
Frank
X hasn’t said much about the ETS except that he’s not too keen.
Yes they can. For instance, in mid-2008 a bill was referred to a committee to report in June 2009.
This may be true but the rest of what you’re saying about the Senate’s ability to delay consideration of legislation is incorrect. The Senate can at any stage delay consideration of anything off to any time in the future.
S 57 of the Constitution however, includes provision for ‘failure to pass’ a bill. An extremely long delay might be considered a ‘failure to pass’ a bill.
Found by placing the quote in Google and selecting Australian sites only
Senator George Brandis in his Maiden Speech
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/senators/homepages/first_speech/sfs-008W7.htm
GG,
United we stand, divided we fall.
who sang that?
These bills have already been to a committee. If they send them to another committee the government can again interpret that as an attempt to block the bills, and demand a vote be brought on.
Diogs,
You did say you were a lefty.
Finns,
The Brotherhood of Man.
For the anti-nuclear zealots, here is some food for thought by the founder of Greenpeace:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401209.html
(Posted near the end of the previous thread)
Another example of the Senate indefinitely delaying legislation is in a recent resolution to delay consideration of any legislation to implement the Government’s National Broadband Network until the day after the Government tables a number of reports on the NBN tender process.
Must say, it is about bloody time Rudd summoned the courage to actually state the deficit and debt numbers with the word “billion” attached.
Is not practiced here
The First incarnation of the Brotherhood of Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB3RBxnn98g
Gee whiz,
It was actually John Howard when he lost the election in 1987.
No 87
Nothing wrong with that as far as I’m concerned. The Government has announced a completely uncosted policy and it requires further analysis. Conroy is easily one of the worst Ministers in Rudd’s Government and needs plenty of checks to keep him in line.
GP, where have you been?
Actually, the bills are currently before a committee, due to report on the first sitting day in June. The Government can try to demand such a vote, but the Senate can negative that motion.
attending the Party HQ Briefing and recieving his nightly talking points
No 16
It’s nice to see you understand how Coalition supporters felt when we were in Government.
#90, Frank – they dont make shirts like that anymore.
No 93
Relaxing.
Did you hear Christine Milne today! She wants the bills brought on immediately so that the Greens can vote against them. The Nats will vote for that to happen as well.
#98, to put you out of your nappy:
As for the central topic of this thread – another biased poll from Essential Research. They should bury themselves. Perhaps the subterranean effluxion of time will cure their pro-ALP bias.
If ypu think they’re bad, fast forward 7 years to TBOM Mark 2
with one of the most unlikely songs about committing suicide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRLQs0w4ExY
No 100
I think the nappy suits you better Finns, since you seem to be such an expert on such infantile matters.
You simply have to be joking…
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25536189-31037,00.html
What those supporting the ETS must try to understand is that from the perspective of people like Christine Milne the mission is to reduce emmissions enough to prevent run-away irriversable climate change. If emmission reductions are not enough to encourage other countries to do their part and prevent irreversable clmate change then it has achieved nothing – perhaps a very temporary stay of execution before CC gets well out of hand by a few years. So if you want to stop irreversable CC and keep atmospheric CO2 below 400-450ppm (or whatever) then why support something that will actively prevent this from hapening by locking in weak targets? ALP types seem to think that any ETS is good enough – if this is good enough then what exactly would a bad CPRS look like?
I think he has been sampling too much of the produce
Since you delight in matters infantile especially in regards to Essential research, maybe this song is about you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHtASr311eE
#103, “Hasta la vista, Baby”
No 104
You can’t argue that the tax has reduced alcopops consumption and then decry job losses in the affected industry as some twisted joke.
Dario,
Saw that and heard their PR touts on the media.
After Telstra you’d reckon a few of these self interested lobby groups might get the message.
ShowsOn, I’m not saying that won’t happen I’m just saying your description of the Senate’s powers is incorrect. The Senate can delay anything they like to an indefinite point in the future if they want to.
#105, two wongs do make it white.
Frank and GG, you guys need to get together off blog, you’ve been like two peas in a pod in recent days/weeks …….
1) Not by a notice of motion 2) In this instance it is impossible.
The Liberals have a simple choice between passing the legislation or turning it into a D.D. trigger.
They have between now and October to decide what they want to do.
GG & Diog,
If you guys don’t remember this, I will
……. atm, Carlton have a few flat tyres 
1) 100% free permits indefinitely. 2) Unlimited number of permits.
The former is the Liberal’s position.
Yes they can. Well not by the notice, but by the motion (if agreed to).
JuleiM,
Frank is in Perth and I am in Melbourne.
He’s a lovely blogger with sexy posts but so am I. So, how could us meeting be anything but a let down for both of us.
The Liberal position, at least when we were in Government, wasn’t too dissimilar from the current Labor policy.
67,
Not a snowballs chance in a warm place mate
Hmmmm
Now I understand,commiserations
Juliem,
Re Carlton, Mick says it best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34XPBYhZgtM
The motion isn’t the notice of motion!
The Liberal carbon trading scheme proposed at the last election was that energy intensive export industries would receive 100% free permits. That is the same position that Andrew Robb put forward on the 4 Corners episode related to the CPRS. I assume we will find out if that is STILL their position after their party room meeting tomorrow.
118,
GG, you and he are developing a merging of minds to a common thought in recent times. I wonder sometimes when I read a post by either of you who wrote it. If I block off the header and disregard “youtube” references and the word “f e r a l” (both of which clearly identify posts as written by Frank), I can’t tell the difference.
#119, The Liberals have more positions on CPRS than the Kama Sutra.
Just a reminder of the Kama Sutra positions, at your own risk:
http://www.amuseline.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%8B%D1%8B%D1%8B_eng.JPG
ShowsOn
The Liberals policy, if similar sentiment is deployed overseas, will result in irreversable climate change. The ALP’s policy, if similar sentiment is deployed overseas, will result in irreversable climate change. Yet the Liberal parties policy will cause less short term strain on the economy. Both have the same bleak end result for the economy though.
The best option wold be for the world to reduce emmissions enough to prevent irreversable climate change, a much worse option would be to accept irreversable CC is gonna happen because we can’t be bothered changing our ways and so work towards getting the economy ready for lower rainful, higher seas etc. The worst option is doing neither, but just fart around with some minor emmission drops.
GG, Malcolm is more predictable than the Blues. I’ve tipped them wrong (win OR lose) 75% of the time this year. Malcolm is predictable. He will oppose for oppositions sake and then back off at the last minute to avoid the DD trigger. He’s already done that with the alcopops saying that they will vote for it this time when it is presented (if memory serves?). According to your YouTube reference, you must have all the time in the world
…..
HM105
I think the ETS is reasonable for the following reasons. It is quite capable of delivering serious reductions eg 40% by 2025 and more later which is what is needed on a global scale. It will fit in with the most likely global schemes. It gives us world leading targets to take to Copenhagen. And most importantly it is conceivable that it could pass as law and be implemented soon unlike any other proposals.
Thus I hope it gets through.
However, I am happy for the Greens to carry on as they are because it helps convince the majority of the population of the merits of the scheme and makes it harder for the Libs and other apologists for the polluters to argue that the ETS is too tough.
But I do not think that is why the Greens are helping thus. They are more driven by needing to have a brand to sell that is distinct from the ALP.
juliem,
Ok you’ve sussed it out. Frank and I are siamese twins cojoined at the brain.
I know that Frank’s parents being Italian, the fact that we live thousands of kilometres aways despite the physical difficulties and that he gets all the action from the chicks was a great disguise.
But, you cracked the code.
No 126
Actually the Labor and Greens policy will equally result in irreversible climate change because both of them oppose nuclear power.
Juliem so you are calling him a coward?
Rudd would do better to deal with us Libs than the Greens IMHO.
What got Rudd into government was moving to the Right so moving to the left on issues will rile with his base.
Any Liberal supporter must know we havent got a chance in hell of winning the 2010 election bar a dramatic drop in the polls (unlikely). We just need to not go backwards by too much.
Its funny JulieM tht you talk about GG and Frank when I read your posts I feel like I could have written them myself.
Maybe there is a similar symbiosis between you and I. As to ShowsOn I am sure he is alone in this world.
On the swine flu epidemic, there is a crucial bit of information here;
So in a country with a comparable health care system (well a bit worse) the mortality rate is only 1:700 which is the same as for common flu. The whole thing has been overcalled. Why are we acting any different with this flu than normal flu.
Sometimes I just love your thought bubbles.
Pray do tell more.
GP
What is the Libs policy on nuclear?
We are cowards when it comes to nuclear power because Hunt and Co have no balls.
They support it but they dont publicly for fear of getting bashed again by the Left as they did under Howie.
The media was bored with the GFC
ESJ, I don’t think so but then I simply don’t know the full extent of your party affiliations. Not formal affiliations, but just what you feel that you identify with. I identify about 85% with the Democrats, 75% with the Greens and 65% with the ALP. Got those numbers a week or a bit more ago from a party affiliation quiz online. I’m on the far left of the ALP and haven’t worked my mind around to the point where I can bring myself to vote Greens #1 in spite of the fact I like more of their positions. Oh, PJK is my hero too
No 135
Who knows. But Howard did evince an intention to start a nuclear industry here.
They’re all for it, as long as NIMBY
131 Glen,
I don’t think so but then I’m not sure what post you are referring to? Point me to the right post and I’ll clarify if need be …..
ESJ,
Maybe we’re co joined triplets.
Frank controls the brain, I’m the heart and you are three arseholes.
It is interesting to note that the the few good Liberals in Tangney worried about climate change have the following choices as their candidate.
Jensen: outspoken CC denier
Lyons: apologist for one of Australia’s biggest GHG polluters, Alcoa
Piggott: outspoken defender of the car industry
(see blog post number 4 after the article at
http://www.businessfleet.com/Blog/Market-Trends/Story/2008/12/Don-t-Let-the-Auto-Industry-Become-Collateral-Damage-to-the-Credit-Crisis.aspx )
I support a domestic nuclear power industry, but it is wrong to assert that Australia needs such an industry to stop catastrophic climate change. It would just make it far easier and cheaper for Australia to reach its targets, and it could mean leaving other polluting industries operating longer.
You’re more interesting when you write incoherent posts about social engineering.
Peter Garrett had this absolute drivel on his website a year ago, criticising Bishop and Robb for these statements. Bishop and Robb both ask only for a rational debate on nuclear, nothing more. And Garrett squeals the NIMBY line in response. It’s just not good enough for the Environment Minister to have a knee-jerk points-scoring NIMBY response instead of having a rational debate.
Can anyone remind me what Garrett has actually done as Minister?
http://www.petergarrett.com.au/593.aspx
I assume they still have the same policy they had at the last election. They want to remove the legislative ban on nuclear power and processing facilities.
LOL GG. I’d be the soul.
Dr Good
The legislation as it stands is hopeless. I guess they could amend it later but it would be simpler to get a good policy now and keep with it consitently. Business is always talking about certainty also. Anyway:
No it doesn’t.
I think the Greens do this with some issues but GW is not one of them.
People generally tend to talk about 2020 targets. To get 40% below 1990 levels by 2025 then they’d have to change their 2020 target or really pack in some massive reductions in the 5 years between 2020 and 2025.
There’s no logical reason to believe in souls.
He did an excellent concert a couple months ago. That gave more joy to a lot of people than most of boring politicians put together.
Glen,
To be honest, the nuclear debate is starting to turn. If the Libs or anyone else wants to get out in front of the discussion they will need more than you coming here and making absolute statements.
It has been a contentious issue and the concerns of the antagonists will need to be addressed.
Do this and anything is possible.
Maybe this could be your ride to Canberra and ultimately the Lodge
Speaking of ESJ and the latter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXzGQld1tY8
The world economy is in collapse, the climate is in almost irreversible damage and the public guardian of our morals is on about this!
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25535377-5005961,00.html
No 151
GG, the problem is that you can’t have a serious debate about nuclear power because the antagonists always inflame the situation and cite extremist examples, few of which are scientifically accurate or probable.
Dio
I am happy for NIMBY arguments to be used against nuclear power as there is a question of safety. With windfarms NIMBY resistence is mostly about inconvenience so is not so valid. If you really think there are no dangers with nuclear power plants or associated storage or transport, and no pollution then why not have them in your electorate.
The Washington Post article you posted contained an excellent example of that:
I can’t think of any other issue that is so tangled up in disinformation as nuclear power.
Juliem i was referring to Turnbull and him waiting until the last moment to avoid a DD, i assume that you mean he’s a coward then?
We cannot have a serious debate about nuclear energy because despite all the evidence saying it is safe and will reduce carbon emissions the feral left simply bang on about Chernobyl period.
Exhibit A
Blows fulltime whistle
Scorpio 153,
Fielding is a moron
…..
If this statement was (in a hypothetical world) carried to its logical conclusion, the aforementioned Federal police would be sitting in the loo reading said magazines, not enforcing the laws
………….. Fielding is in la-la land 
No 158
Objection, your Honour. Exhibit A shows no signs of extremism, but irrefutable fact.
So do you think Turnbull is going to oppose the CPRS on the first vote, and then support it in October?
GP,
I never said it would be easy.
Look, I have posted stuff yesterday and before. Write down the concerns that people have always said about NP and find the answers.
Hint: Follow a guy named Blees.
Finns
True. And weren’t there an enormous number of people -who were his supporters- who took the opportunity to point out that he should have stuck to his old job, this Midnight Oil-NDP fan included.
Glen 157, no not at all a coward, just wants to string Kevin out and keep him guessing until the last minute. Rudd might have thought (I know what they’ve said but who REALLY knows?) that he was setting himself up for the DD trigger by deliberately not reintroducing the alcopops bill until after 3 months had passed (mid June). But if that were the case, MT has screwed his carefully laid plans over and now Kevin will have to look for another DD trigger.
This is untrue! Nuclear power in Australia would just make a transition to a low carbon economy FASTER and CHEAPER. We could achieve the same result in other ways, but it would take LONGER and cost more.
Setting aside that, the planet probably already IS suffering from “irreversible climate change”, but at the moment it isn’t catastrophic.
Remember Hiroshima
Remember 3 Miles
Remember Chernobyl
Remember Fukui Prefecture
Remember North Korea TV Newsreader
Remember catastrophic climate change
The Finnigans,
couldn’t have said it better, good on you
Showy, i dont remember you
I remember you.
Dr Good
The article GP linked by the Greenpeace co-founder said that studies showed 80% of people living near a nuclear power plant (excluding people who worked there) were happy to have it there. The NIMBY thing is peculiar to Oz. We are the only Western G20 country except Italy without nuclear power, and the Italians have ordered one (probably from the Camorra, PS ESJ Got the book today)
ShowsOn, will have to agree to disagree. I’ve nailed my colours to the mast by replying to Finnigans, but ongoing debate is not my style. You blokes can carry on and I’ll read same
Juliem.
The North Korea TV Newsreader is more frightening than its nuclear bomb.
I am no Zelot when it comes to nucleur power however I am yet to be convinced that it can be a very useful tool in combating climate change. The start up time is too long and there is still some CO2 emmisions due to cement construction and uranium mining. Also, it is a non-renewable source of energy so it can only be used for so long. Nevertheless I don’t believe that every nucleur power plant already in existence should be immediatly shut down, I am slightly less opposed to nucleur power than coal power.
No 166
Remember none of those things apply to a nuclear reactor designed in the 21st Century.
Furthermore, not a single person died as a result of radiation poisoning from the three-mile island incident. The containment protections worked exactly as designed.
No 171
I saw the Gomorrah movie last year. It’s taken a silly amount of time to get released in Oz. Good film by the way.
Finns,
This guy defiantely remembers.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2009/s2574387.htm
1) How is this scheme, specifically, capable of delivering those reductions? And if it is capable, then why isn’t the government saying so?
2) 5% unconditional targets are not “world leading” and neither is 25% conditional.
Finns
Eight Mile Island showed that nuclear power IS safe. They stuffed up completely and still couldn’t kill anyone. They tried but they just couldn’t do it. It really was fool-proof!
1500 coal miners die every year.
Finnigans, the NK hierarchy forgot to clear their test with their comrades
….
The nuclear debate (like many on PB) is pointless, because people come with their own pre-conceived ideas and ignore anything that doesn’t reaffirm them.
No 177
Whilst that man’s experience is certainly horrifying, we are not talking about nuclear weapons.
Oz,
You are completely wrong!
No 171
Also Dio, I read your link and it was a good read. Thanks for that.
I would have expected you, at least, to move past the sad “Nuclear vs. Coal” argument. When we’re talking about changing laws, re-writing the energy landscape in Australia and government subsidies we’re not talking nuclear vs. coal, we’re talking nuclear vs. renewables.
Duly ignored!
Point of order, Dio. Should be 3 not 8.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle.html
GP,
I was responding to Finns.
No need to be defensive. See my earlier post.
It already HAS been a useful tool in combating climate change. If there was no nuclear power, the Kyoto protocol targets would’ve had to be DOUBLE to achieve the same reductions.
The cement construction is irrelevant, you’d have to do almost the same thing to build a coal or gas power station. The entire nuclear cycle puts out about the same about of CO2 as that used to construct solar cells.
The last U.K. budget has set out a plan to replace all their old nuclear power stations with new ones.
There was a report made into the LONG TERM effects of the three mile island incident, and it is estimated that ONE extra person died of cancer in the years since the accident took place.
GG, i am just …………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2FT4FprxDg
If we already had nuclear power, I probably wouldn’t extremely vocal in trying to shut it down. But given we don’t have it, and the process of getting it would involve long lead times and billions in investment, I think those resources could be better placed elsewhere.
But more than the life cycle emissions from wind and solar thermal.
Diog,
They are the salt of the earth,
They dont feel comfortable in a nuclear power plant control room in white coat
Oz
Too true. Still I kinda sit the fence on nucleur power. I have no ideological objection to it (except for that its non-renewable) but see no particularly good reason to use it when Austalia has all this potential geothermal, wind and solar energy to use. We’ve just got such huge amounts of geothermal energy we could use and it could quite easily be cost competitive. So why bother with nucleur energy? I think the Right just like the idea of it because the Left oppose it.
He has struck a blow against discrimination against bald men!
The proposed CPRS can easily deliver 40% reductions by 2025. The government of the day in 2020 just announces the cap for 2025. Industry has 5 years to plan ahead and get ready to buy its permits. If a company fails to get enough permits in the auction then it can not pollute. There is no legal need for the cap in 2025 to be anything like the cap in 2020. Also any so called compensations and free permits will be long history by then.
Why doesn’t the government tell us that such targets are achievable? Because the real argument today is to convince the public, polluters and right wing parties that control the senate that the scheme has a gentle start.
For all the PRO NUke
Three blind mice
Israel, Iran,Nth Korea
They hadn’t seen such a thing in their life
No 185
The answer is clearly nuclear AND renewables. You make a long-term investment in nuclear power and a short to medium term investment in solar power.
#181, I came here to be amused and abused
Finns,
You are always good, despite your intentions.
You are an Amigo!
No 194
Learn to spell Heyson. Nuclear not nucleur. Put GWB back in the closet.
This debate isn’t even nuclear v renewables! because by 2050 Australia will need the capability to generated DOUBLE the amount of electricity we are making now, so we shouldn’t be thinking nuclear vs. renewables, we need to be thinking nuclear AND renewables.
Moreover, it is quite possible that nuclear power will be far CHEAPER than currently non-existent clean coal technologies. So if we want more money free to be spent on renewables, we should spend more money on a proven technology – nuclear – rather than investing R&D dollars on clean coal.
The question is not whether they’re achievable but how many jobs is it going to cost?
[Three blind mice - Israel, Iran,Nth Korea}
Gus, My three fears in life - the Rabi, The Mullah and North Korea TV Newsreader.
HM, you claim that the targets (eg 25%) are not good ones to take to Copenhagen. Is there a list somewhere of which countries are taking tougher targets?
The government is spending $1.5 billion on ONE solar power station to produce 1000 MW. If the government made nuclear power stations legal, private investment would fund the construction of plants, because it would be a hugely beneficial investment for offsetting carbon emissions.
The world has already brought into irreversible climate change.
Regardless of what actions we take now, climate change is happening NOW and will continue for the next 20 years.
If we take the proper actions now, in 20 years the climate will stabilise.
It will be a different climate to the one we have now, though.
If we don’t have action, than after 20 years it will continue to change.
Careful Dr Good, you better watch out for the oh so pures as they assemble their big guns to attack you for daring to question their motives
Frank
name.. oh you get the drift
Diog, I cannot let this pass to the keeper.
Were you flying high as the byrds?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1myOiIBbEwY
This is, of course, the stupidest way to go about doing things. The goal is not be punitive but to create avenues where private investment can become part of the solution, not part of the problem. If the argument is that if emissions intensive are still operating by 2025 then we can just shut them down and thus the ETS has succeeded is a joke.
The true success will be if it actually encourages significant reallocation of resources in clean energies. Not a facade of the above and then intense regulation.
Also, every cap and trade system provides the solution you describe above. Nothing inherent in this one. Other than it makes it more likely that emissions cuts will rely on punitive action as opposed to long term preparation whilst we still have the time.
The Shergold inquiry showed that nuclear power wouldn’t be economically competitive until we had a carbon price of at least $50-60 a tonne. We’re at $10 in 2012.
Marge, Astro.. oh you get my drift as well
The EU, as a combined body, is taking 30% (on 1990 levels). Individual members are taking more. The UK is 42%. So I guess most Western countries have higher targets than us.
I agree Zoomster that climate change is occurring now. It is also possible that we are getting close to atmoshperic GHG concentrations already which will cause run away CC if left in the air. Thus I think it is vital that as well as starting to cut back on pollution soon, we also start to try to get GHGs out of the air. So I am happy that some countries like Austr are spending some research money on sequestration. But I think more needs to be done on stopping tropical deforestation and more of global reforestation.
This sentence doesn’t actually make sense, but I hope the gist got through.
Frank
it takes a while to mobilise them – we won’t see them until about post 400.
And $30 the year after that. And it will increase every year after that.
If companies quickly invest in clean technologies the price of carbon will rise slowly.
If companies don’t invest in clean technologies the price of carbon will rise very quickly.
I propose abandoning South Australia and revegetating it.
No 212
Who actually cares? Is the goal to make nuclear price competitive or to save the climate?
That’s why this debate is so pointless. The answer (i.e. nuclear power) is right in front of everyone’s nose but it’s just too inconvenient to accept.
Why?
I believe that renewables and energy efficiency measures will be able to provide most of our energy needs by 2050, even accounting for population increase etc.
You, frankly, don’t really know what you’re talking about and will no doubt mention something silly about base load power so I’m leaving this discussion here.
I am glad Oz that you agree that the CPRS like any reasonable ETS can deliver the 40% reductions by 2025.
I also agree with you that as soon as the current argy bargy is over and the CPRS is bedded in then it will be helpful for the government to start advertising much tougher targets for 2025. Industry can then plan ahead for as long as possible.
No 219
I think banishing you to Antarctica would be a far better solution.
I think it’s about saving the environment, but renewables win that argument easily.
So then nuclear proponents raise the economic argument, which is what 212 was in response too.
ESJ,
Sydneysiders to Adelaide. It will never work.
The CPRS can deliver 900% cuts by 2021 if it wants.
Just to highlight the hilarity of your basis for support.
LOL GP.
No 221
Oh great. So now we’re back to pointless idiocy where you proclaim to be the all-supreme bastion of knowledge and everyone need not bother to posit alternative opinion.
Oz, I want a list of targets by country not a few cherry picked amounts from some recession hit countries. What about Japan, SE asia, canada, usa, brazil, china, india?
No GG I’d focus on native vegetables not importation.
Oz, Dr G et al
Two little words but very big really
1.Incremental
Any initial target can be ratcheted up incrementally as times demand.
2.Cumulative
The value of renewables and other savings will lead to a cumulative reduction in both Traditional energy sources and industry/consumer Needs
No 224
Renewables are great. I’m all for them. But they are only part of the solution.
OZ I agree 90% targets by 2021 is possible and that might be what the science says is needed then. So why is this funny?
How? Even green groups say that AT BEST by 2040, 40% of our energy will come from renewables.
Where do we get the other 60% from? The candidates are coal, gas, and nuclear. By 2040 nuclear will probably be the cheapest out of those three, and the cleanest. The idea of us gambling everything on ‘clean coal’ is scary.
For example would anybody weap if we started with the real sicko places in SA like Truro, Snowtown and Adelaide, shut them down and let them re-vegetate?
Photos from inside North Korea:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4878
No 234
I can’t even believe we’re worried about cleaning up coal, when we have the world’s largest uranium deposits. Either way, the transition is easy and the jobs can be transferred.
Again, the answer is there, but for whatever silly reason, the extreme Greens will simply not accept nuclear power as a viable solution.
ESJ,
Apparently they intend to bury Alexander Downer bums up.
Will make a great talking point and an even better bike rack.
It hardly ever rains in Adelaide.
I agree. We can hit the same targets with other technologies, in the long run nuclear will just prove to be a cheaper way to do it.
I agree with Malcolm Turnbull, by 2050 all of our electricity production should be CO2 free.
Downer has two arses?
It did when I was there in 1977.
The boguns could be proud to do their bit to stop CC. With revegetation the climate could produce more rainfall. As a true re-vegetation zone any boguns who didnt relocate could be hunted and eaten, I understand some of the locals in SA already have this practice
Watch the AMA oppose this.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/25/2580514.htm?section=justin
LOL! Science ain’t your thing ESJ.
oops OZ I misread your 226 post. I do not think that the CPRS can deliver 900% cuts in GHG pollution by 2021. That means that 9 times as much GHG is taken out of the air than was put in in 1990. I do not think that the CPRS encourages GHG sequestration on that scale. Also it would too rapidly cool the planet if kept up for a few years.
Okay non-scientist attempting some science time: Revegetating can only do so much. By digging up CO2 in its various forms and putting it into the air there becomes more CO2 in the atmosphere (obviously). It is a better tactic to lower the amount of extra CO2 entering the carbon cycle than planting more tree’s. They’re a drop in the ocean and it doesn’t stop the fact that there’s more CO2 around now. When they decompose the CO2 wil be back. It doesn’t hurt though either and reforestation should be encouraged for other reasons but its just not that big a deal.
Of course he does
He needs one to talk out of!
No 244
Nurses are not qualified doctors, so I would be apprehensive to any change that gives nurses responsibilities above their skillset.
Gusface,
I’ll have you know the SA toursit authority is greatly upset at your revelation. A politician talking out both arses is a very rare thing.
And Generic Heffalump has proven my point precisely – though this isn’t much diffferent from the Home Visiting Sisters who already to wound care etc.
GP,
That is a very good question.
You and I can go on line and self diagnose with all the various sites that do this sort of thing. So, where does the Doctor now fit in.
If we are to provide quality health care to remotely located Australians, we need to work this out.
Dr Good
Australia is in recession, so is Japan, the USA, Canada(?) and the EU. You don’t really leave any developed countries to compaire with if you discount any in recession. A recession has both positive and negative consequences for CO2 emmissions. Although the EU economy is less resource based and so transition is of course easier there, I would say they are more focused on change – marginally.
First Germany, now France getting tough on the Scam of $cientology:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25538891-23109,00.html
Herr Doktor is always ready to prescribe treatments to those that ail
Maybe have a flying doctor service
In like Flynn (john that is)
Final score from the Fremantle by-election: Carles 10,664, Tagliaferri 9,100. Margin: 3.96 per cent. I expected Labor would rein it in a little on late counting, but no.
So Adele won by 1564 votes then
I’m heartened by the fact that an ALP victory at the next state poll is achievable, considering there will be a Liberal Candidate and not so many “Independents” to muddy the waters
You can whatever the hell you want, I’m not your work experience kid.
You asked for countries that had higher targets. I told you the countries, that I am aware of and could be bothered looking up that had higher targets. Not get iffy with me because it doesn’t support your view.
Carles is likely to overtake the Lib at the next election as she came within 7 hundred last time and she will have the advantage of incumbency and profile.
Tom,
You are on the cusp of holding on.
Do you know what you are holding on to?
As if, The Libs will have someone to vote for next time.
No 252
GG, we can, of our volition, choose to use various third party sources, whether printed or online, to self-diagnose. However, when I’m at a public or private hospital I want a qualified person to diagnose the ailment.
Well, yeah, they did in 2008 too. Adele Carles then was someone from South Freo who was known around the place as an anti-South Beach development activist; Carles in 2013 will be the local member with four years of being known for that. It won’t be hard for her to come second, unless the Liberals actually run somebody who they really, truly reckon can win the seat (which probably won’t happen). My pick for then: she’ll get 35%, minimum. Labor could win the seat back, but only with a really inspired choice of candidate. (And knowing Labor of late, they’ll probably think ’superstar Docker’ and then go for Clive Waterhouse or someone.)
And if anyone wants to say that by-elections are abberations and so’s this one, I saw somewhere (maybe here, maybe the ABC website) that Labor got a small swing towards them at the by-election, by figuring a ALP vs Grn 2pp from 2008. Figure that one out.
Yep, Carles got the highest primary at the by-election, 3rd place is a long way to fall. The Liberals won’t be trying to win anyway. Besides even if she does come 3rd on primaries (very doubtful) she could still make it into the final 2 on preferences. Its a long time to go however. Infact we could have Greens in the NSW and VIC lower houses before she’s back up for election.
Although I suppose it works both ways: She could come second on primaries and be overtaken by the Libs on preferences.
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/sa/2006/results/mitc.htm
After double checking the Mitchel 2006 results inwhich ALP-turn-Green-turn-Independent Kris Hanna beat the stagnant ALP due to a massive drop in LIB support I have changed my mind on Freo. I am now a convert to the “liberals moved on mass to the non-ALP candidate, ideological differences aside” doctrine.
Careful there, Heysen. The Libs over there got absolutely pulped in the last election… you’d have to expect a bit of improvement from them. If their vote goes up at the expense of Labor, it might (kinda perversely) give the seat back to Labor, which Hanna will need to watch out for. Has he been making himself notable lately?
Ummm, if something is in short supply and is irregular wouldn’t storing it for use over time be a sane thing to do?
Frank and GP are scared little kids.
Both William Bowe and Antony Green say Carles has a good chance of retaining Freo at the next election. Carles came within a handful of votes of overtaking the Liberal candidate on preferences and winning the seat at the last election, with incumbency and profile she’s definately the front runner next election.
I’ll listen to William and Antony
A very sloppy “reporting” by Fran Kelly this morning on ABC RN. She said that Paul Keating was against the raising of the pension age from 65-67. Paul Keating never did such a thing:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/dont-wreck-super-keating-20090525-bkt6.html?page=-1
What PJK was against the linking of private Super benefits to the public pension:
As a long time listener of RN, her journalistic standard has slipped in the last few years.
Oz
I raised that to show that the risks of nuclear power are hugely overblown and we ignore all the coal miners who die. I think we should have as many options as possible on the table. Over time, market forces will winnow out the good ones which we will be basing our power on in 2050. It might be geothermal, nuclear, tidal, wind, solar, carbon capture or a newcomer. I actually don’t care which one it is as long as we get there.
On the nurses taking extra roles, I’ll break ranks with the AMA who are hopeless as usual.
A lot of medical services can be performed by experienced nurses, as long as there are appropriate guidelines and training. They’re much better than doctors at documenting, following protocols and generally doing what they’re meant to.
I started up a clinic staffed by nurses to see post-op patients after skin cancer excisions. The nurses take out the stitches and give out the pathology results and educate the patient about skin cancer prevention. A doctor checks the pathology later and signs off on it. About 20% of plastic surgery patients can be treated this way without going to outpatients so we can see 20% more new patients.
These “nursing-led clinics” have spread to several other specialties and have worked really well in every setting. There was some resistance to this from conservative doctors but they’ve all come around when they see the benefits.
Finns
FYI
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25539478-462,00.html
I think rudd was being nice to the biggest Sol around, and should have added
“dont let the door smack you on the ass on the way out”
A greater destroyer of an OZ business/Institution we have yet to see
Any word on what shadow cabinet decided last night on the CPRS?
Article from 44 mins ago:
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/coalition-parties-meet-on-ets-response-20090526-bkxf.html
Further in that article:
And then we have the Liberal stooge:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/26/2580804.htm
The Greens have some motion up to give the government a “negotiating mandate” to take to Copenhagen. Xenophon supports this. Dunno about the details though.
This is interesting stuff by mediawatch…
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2580370.htm
What’s the Party line?
With due respect to Doctors there is no reason why a RN Registered Nurse cannot describe medine, Senior Nurses are highly skilled and there is a simple reason why a Doctor spends so little time doing rounds of the wards and that is the RN’s are the Doctors eyes and ears, RN’s spend four years at Uni, they know as much about medical issues as a Doctor does and a really skilled Nurse does not need to talk to a patient for she/he can tell by watching what the problem is that is how skilled they are.
mexicanbeemer
RNs don’t know as much about medicine as doctors do as a whole. Senior nurses who have worked in one area all their life know as much as many of the training doctors about that field but they still don’t know as much as the specialist.
bob
Bolt has some good quotes on the issue. Just don’t scroll down to read the comments. Chris Uhlmann is particularly scathing about Rudd’s media management.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_rudd_spins_the_gallery/
Diogenes!! With respect I disagree for I was talking about your run of the mill Doctor and yes a senior Nurse of many years experience will have the knowledge base equal to a Doctor.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25539805-5006301,00.html
I see the Greens and the other minor Parties in the Senate are set to reject the CPRS bills. Shame! Shame! Shame!
http://www.theage.com.au/national/coalition-gives-ets-ultimatum-20090525-bktf.html
DD here we come.
Can anyone seriously see an election being fought on climate change? I doubt it.
I just love the Lib position. They want a bipartisan approach but they are going to vote against the ETS no matter what. What a rabble!
It looks like Labor + Greens + Mr X will force a vote (after all they will be the winners in a DD). I say “Bring it on”.
Keelty has flatly denied to the Senate estimates committee that the AFP has ever said or reported that Rudd government policies have led to the increase in attempted people smuggling to Australia.
By the way Trujillo is correct. He was the subject of racist jibes. Just as we would not accept ‘n***er’ as a descriptor for blacks, we should not accept ‘amigo’ as pejorative reference to hispanic people.
The Nats look like they won’t support delaying the vote on the “rabid dog”. I always said Workchoices or the ETS would be decent DD triggers. I hope the gun is loaded.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/26/2580804.htm?section=australia
Malcolm was on about how they are one of the only oppositions going that agree on the govt targets, then said Obama’s bill had much more comphensation for business and for workers at risk of losing their jobs?
I emailed the Clerk of the Senate Harry Evans asking him who he thought were the best Senate orators in his time. He nominated John Wheeldon (ALP WA, 1965-1981) and Reg Wright (LIB TAS, 1950-1978). One of the best speeches he heard was “Wright on parliamentary powers of inquiry on 17 February 1977″.
Good on the Nats! At least they have the guts to form a position. The Liberals are still trying to delay forming a policy.
Yep. It’s no small matter and let’s face it other issues will also be present in an election campaign. Does anyone really believe the Libs are ready for an election?
Surely the Liberals will be trying to avoid this at all costs? Other than the economy, climate change was an important issue at the last election, and it didn’t help the Liberals at all.
Here’s a thought. Xenophon and Joyce are closer than Siamese twins, running around the country with their hairbrained stunts, so maybe they could go the whole hog and Joyce could run as X’s number 2 next election?
I don’t agree with the Nats but one has to admire their consistency, something the Libs sadly lack.
No 293
I have to agree. Though, I do see some merit in the Liberal position. Personally, Turnbull should have the balls to take a stand on nuclear power. Turnbull would then have the upper hand, I believe.
No 295
It would certainly be one of the most bizarre elections in recent memory. After all, both parties support the end goal. It’s the minutiae on which they disagree.
I disagree GP. Whilst both parties have their share of climate change sceptics, the ALP has been far better at maintaining a party line/position. I think there is a public perception that the Libs are not willing to deal with climate change (I think largely due to their performance in govt).
An election on this would result in a) either the Libs coming in behind Turnbull, thus vindicating the ALP position and seeing the ALP extend its margin, or b) the Libs fracturing and the same thing occuring.
And on nuclear – purely because of this perception that the Libs don’t want to deal with climate change – if Turnbull suggests it (and Rudd does not) it may have the potential to tar nuclear energy as a the ‘wrong’ or ‘not real’ way to deal with climate change.
In addition to my 298, we should remember that Thatcher used climate change as the reason for introducing nuclear power to Britain.
Yes, but if an election were called tomorrow, the Liberal party would have a party position. Oppositions are always mealy-mouthed prior to elections.
The Liberals still want to give ALL energy intensive trade exposed industries 100% free permits. That is a far more lenient position than the government.
For a quick guide to Liberal Perty climate and emissions policy check this extract from Guy Pearse’s book:
http://www.guypearse.com/index.php?pageid=1715
I don’t doubt this. I think the challenge would be to a) cut through the perception that they are not ’serious’ about climate change and b) to differentiate themselves from the ALP. As you mentioned earlier, this would likely be on nuclear. But as many have noted here, the nuclear option is viewed quite negatively by the public (rightly or wrongly). It may be a weak position from the Libs, as well as having long term impacts on the political viability of nuclear.
No 304
ShowsOn, that is because there is no point surrendering our exports to our competitors unless there is a global binding agreement to which all our trading competitors are a party.
The Government’s position is untenable on this point.
It is up to the Libs to argue that it is important, and that it demonstrates how serious they are. You know, like how Rudd demonstrated that Howard’s unwillingness to ratify Kyoto demonstrated how he wasn’t serious on climate change.
Remember, support for nuclear power is higher now in Australia than at any other time.
Thatcher may of been responsible for a big expansion of nuclear power,b ut the U.K. has been using nuclear power since the late 1950s. The first reactor capable of the production of electricity in commercial quantities was built at Calder Hall.
The Coalition really doesn’t want to fight an election on climate change. The last ER on the subject of who would manage it better was 36% Labor, 11% Liberal, 35% no difference. The Coalition don’t even have a policy except delay. What are their targets? Do they want a carbon tax or an ETS? Are they pro-nuke? Are they including agriculture? Do they even believe in Climate Change?
They would get killed on the issue.
Thanks for the clarification.
Nevertheless, Thatcher demonstrated that you can win the nuclear argument if you take a stand. Regardless of what people may think of Thatcher, Reagan, Howard etc, at least they had convictions. It’s something of which Turnbull needs to take heed.
We wouldn’t be surrendering our exports! The Government would simply be giving those industries assistance now, but demonstrating to them that they MUST modify their operators into the future.
The Liberals plan says to those industries that they can go along – business as usual – without any need to plan medium and long term changes.
After there is world agreement on those sectors, then they will have to change. It is much better for a government to encourage voluntary changes, rather than having a heap of far more radical changes FORCED on them at a later date.
Lots of politicians have convictions, it doesn’t automatically mean they are convictions worth having.
Quiz: Which of the three had core and non-core promises?
No 311
The industry assitance is nowhere near enough ShowsOn, that is the point.
No 312
Lots of politicians have convictions, but few have the fortitude to stand by them when the going gets tough.
GP – something especially for you.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/05/26/tax-free-days/
No 313
A promise is not a conviction.
No 316
Possum, the flash app is not loading in my browser.
How has this been demonstrated?
They gave them 90% free targets. They had a winge. They delayed the scheme by 2 years and gave them 95% free targets.
There’s zero evidence suggesting that in 2012 the polluting industries will all of a sudden say “Ok now we’ll change” and the government won’t just cave in again.
And it shouldn’t be. Because unless you want to kill off other sectors of the economy, you have to spread the impact across the economy. If you quarantine some industries, then that means other industries have to make even bigger changes.
Sure, and Thatcher, Reagan and Howard are all excellent examples of that. They all preached minimal government, but over their times in power, Thatcher and Howard INCREASED government spending. Ronald Reagan decreased government spending by just 1.8% of GDP, which is HALF the cut achieved by Bill Clinton.
Possum
Thanks for that. Only a two more days until I stop working for Mr Rudd!!
That’s weird GP, what browser are you using.
It’s working in Opera, Firefox and IE.
By making them pay for SOME of their permits immediately.
By reducing the number of free permits they receive each year automatically, irrespective of international agreements.
It works for me in Firefox.
Turnbull really needs to do something about his jealousy of Kev.
Diogenes Turnbull agrees with Rudd’s targets apparently
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/26/2580924.htm
This is just meaningless blather. Resources constitute a large part of our exports. By imposing a capricious carbon trading scheme on the sector, you immediately make the industry less competitive on the world stage UNLESS our competitors are subscribing to similar schemes. If you want to unilaterally go ahead with the scheme then then the industry assistance has to be commensurate with the egregious costs and loss of international competitiveness that arises.
But they’ve already admitted that the amount they have to pay is not worth forcing behavioral change.
Nice paycheck you have there.
What a blow hard! True bipartisan support would be if he told his party to vote for the bills!
No 322
I’m using Internet Explorer 7 on a university computer which probably explains why it is taking aeons to load.
GP:
Is there any point in standing by convictions if they are proved wrong?
From John Maynard Keynes:
vera
Well at least that is something. I wonder if the Nationals agree with the 5%-25% target as well. I’m sure Barnaby will tell us soon.
No wonder why 35% of people think there’s no difference between them on climate change.
It depends what company you are referring to. I don’t think the alumina industry having to buy $172 million worth of permits in 3 years time “NOTHING”.
In fact, if this ETS doesn’t pass, then energy intensive industries will pay NOTHING, which is exactly what they do now.
No 334
The Aluminium industry is already in crisis.
Possum, it’s working for me now. Well, suffice to say, the first five months of the year belong to Rudd, which is simply obscene thievery.
bob
I just saw a flyer for the Save the RAH group. They are having a public meeting in Rundle Park with Mr X and Mark Parnell as Invited Speakers.
Again you have completely ignored the fact that if you give export industries more free permits, then to achieve the same targets you will need to force deeper cuts on the DOMESTIC economy! If those export industries do just a SMALL amount, it means there doesn’t need to be as big cuts in the domestic economy.
There is no free ride and magic way to fix this. But completely leaving some industries out just forces other industries to make even bigger changes.
$171 million out of a revenue of $11 billion+.
I don’t see the point of applying a carbon cost just for the sake of it. The cost should be such that the price of changing the way you do business is more attractive than just paying your way out of it. If it’s not, then you won’t see any technological or behavioral change, at least nowhere near to the extent that we need. We already know what happens when you structure your system this way – it collapses, like the GGAS scheme in NSW.
I think it was Douglas Adams who wrote of Zaphod Beeblebrox (from another characters perspective) that “He was clearly a man of many qualities, even if they were mostly bad ones.”
I feel the same about many past and present politicians, Thatcher included.
Having conviction doesn’t mean that you have good ideas.
I wrote alumina. Extracting alumina from bauxite. Not converting alumina into aluminium through electrolysis.
We’ve already left out transport and agriculture.
I still think a new hospital is better.
And when was the last time a government was voted out for building a new hospital?
No 341
My apologies. But how do you change the way this is done such that it is more carbon neutral? I think the union boss on Q&A a few months ago caught Christine Milne out on this point.
Yes, so when you proposed that was NOTHING you were wrong.
Do you honestly think an industry will pay a new $171 million tax, that they have never before had to pay, without changing the way they do business?
And again, the amount of free permits they receive declines by 1.3% every year IRRESPECTIVE of what other countries do. The government auctions fewer permits every years. Which means the cost of permits increases, and the number of permits the industries must by INCREASES.
The whole plan of this system is to start with the costs low and then increase them. I think it is a weak criticism to say that the costs aren’t high enough at the start. We need to give industries a chance to change, because they have never had to pay for this pollution before.
bob
WA a few months ago.
Sure. I see no reason for transport to be left out, it should apply to petrol.
There IS a good reason to leave agriculture out, we don’t have good methods for estimating pollution quantities. If it was included before we have good ways to measure it, then it could be used to rort the entire system.
He was talking about making steel though, adding coking coal to iron inside a blast furnace. The only way you can make electrolysis cleaner is to do it using a non-CO2 energy resource.
Howes was talking about steel production.
Any familiar with how steel is produced knows that it’s impossible to make it carbon free. But there are ways to reduce emissions significantly, and some countries have already started doing them by putting efficiency targets on steel production.
China accounts for 50% if emissions from steelmaking alone, but there’s studies that demonstrate that through technology sharing and other efficiency measures, emissions from steelmaking in developing countries could be cut by 40-50%.
Was it over the hospital?
And let’s not forget WA is unique at the best of times, and especially with the worst of Labor campaigns and an early election.
Dio – get rid of that damn old monolith. It must harbor horrible things in those old walls.
It was a mausoleum when I was a kid and it must still be.
How about a nice fresh, new, light, airy building instead.
BTW – your comments re setting up nursing unit is brilliant. Last 8 years have been a change in life for us with sick other half but the home nursing staff were magnificent when needed.
Neighbour who is a nurse, with consent of Dr, took out stitches from my knee reconstruction and her skills in changing bandages, etc. was awesome.
You must have a talent for original thought – keep it going. We may yet change those musty old conservative Drs. and the AMA.
Why not run for President – bet you’re better looking than Ms Capilingua(?)
And now for a bit of reductio ad Hitlerum …
Kerry Packer had conviction!
(Oops, I meant Adolf Hitler.)
It’s actually worse than NOTHING because it imposes a cost on business and consumer with very little change of emissions reduction.
Of course they will. The only way they’ll change is if the cost of avoiding the tax is less than paying the tax itself. There’s no way that’s the case with this system. And like I said, we already KNOW how they’ll act because it’s how they act in every other scheme like ours and because they’ve said it again.
I’ve read proposals from companies seeking to develop power stations and factories, specifically the sections regarding emissions abatement. In some parts of Australia there’s already taxes and certificates for emissions and other pollutants so we’re not operating in a vacuum. You see them list all the different ways they could abate them but then most of the time conclude that it’s just easier to buy the certificates.
Wouldn’t a reductio ad Hitlerum be if you accused G.P. of being like Hitler?
In this instance you are demonstrating that just because some politicians have convictions, it doesn’t automatically mean those convictions are good.
*chance, not change.
> And now for a bit of reductio ad Hitlerum …
I prefer “reductio ad Bushium” … W was much worse.
Your proposition that no cost would be better than some cost doesn’t make economic sense.
This is a national scheme! Plus, if one company gets in quick and buys certificates, that DRIVES the cost of certificates or permits UP! So that it is harder for OTHER companies to do the same thing.
Then next year when they go to buy permits, there are fewer available, which again drives the cost up.
Proposing that the costs aren’t high enough at the START is a weak argument, because it is a formality that those costs will increase every year. If businesses voluntarily invest in ways to reduce their emissions the cost of permits will increase slowly, if they don’t do anything and just rush out each year to buy permits, the price of the permits will increase dramatically.
SHowsOn and GP
“I wrote alumina. Extracting alumina from bauxite. Not converting alumina into aluminium through electrolysis.”
I have a little understanding of the extracting alumina. That particular process is not extremely energy intensive, it’s the transformation from Alumina to Aluminium that produces most CO2.
There is an interesting experiment going on at the Kwinana refinery in WA, they are pumping waste CO2 from their plant (waste from energy generation) into the red mud slurry that is left after removing the Alumina. This red mud is extremely basic (pH 11 or so) so the addition of CO2 acts to lower the pH and lock the CO2 into carbonates in the mud. This has a number of benefits. The red mud is no longer as toxic as it was and they get rid of a lot of CO2. This is one example of how an industry can develop a process to make it very close to carbon neutral.
It actually does and I’ve explained it very simple terms. You just haven’t quite grasped it yet. I’m sure it will dawn on you soon.
Quite possibly. The fashion is to blame Labor’s defeat in the inner northern seats of Morley and Mount Lawley on Alan Carpenter for imposing his preferred candidates, but it tends to get overlooked that these were electorates negatively affected by the government’s policy of winding down the Royal Perth Hospital and shifting services to the new Fiona Stanley Hospital in the southern suburbs (not unlike the big swing against Labor in Brisbane’s inner north over the Children’s Hospital issue in the recent Queensland election). Though no doubt “voted out for building a new hospital” is overstating things.
http://www.abc.net.au/newsradio/supp/poll/default.htm
Great, so you’ve reverted to comments on my intelligence which suggests you realise your argument is weak.
1) You are ignoring the fact the fact the export industries receiver fewer free permits every year.
2) You are ignoring the fact the government auctions fewer permits every year.
3) You are ignoring the fact that if industries simply buy permits and do nothing to reduce their emissions this will put upward pressures on the price of permits
4) You are ignoring the fact that if companies reduce their emissions, they don’t need to buy as many permits.
If you can’t engage with those arguments, don’t bother replying to my posts. I’m not interested in a back and forth featuring nothing but ad hominem attacks.
Yes, I believe it is racist, but only in the way it was said. My spanish speaking friends call me amigo all the time.
Interesting, if not surprising to note that the ABC and ninemsn polls drew the opposite result. Sadly the ninemsn poll has about 10000 more respondents.
In this instance you are demonstrating that just because some politicians have convictions, it doesn’t automatically mean those convictions are good.
Precisely ShowsOn. Now everyone put that in their exercise books please, under the heading Stating the Bleeding Obvious.
(!)
According to NewsRadio:
The Liberals want the CPRS sent off to ANOTHER review by the productivity commission, and they don’t want it voted on until after Copenhagen.
The Nationals in the joint party room wanted the legislation voted down immediately.
Hopefully some of the Nationals cross the floor to vote it down in July and October, thus giving the Government a D.D. trigger.
Oh calm down.
The point was I hadn’t ignored anything, I’ve addressed pretty much every point you’ve made. But I don’t see the point in just stating our positions over and over.
William – I can understand people being upset with shifting the Hosp to a new area but in Adelaide it will stay within the CBD so travel won’t be any more of a problem.
Altho I like the RAH location is there a reason, Dio, why they can’t start pulling down the old buildings there and build anew, pulling down as they go.
ShowsOn -come to where I am – the racism is fully fledged in large pockets. Mostly kept underground but prick it and sitting back listening to the screams will send you deaf. Sends me mostly troppo.
I thought Kev’s answer ‘Adios’ was absolutely perfect for Trujillo. What a bighead.
Did Rudd even call him amigo? I thought this is about Rudd saying “adios” when asked if he had anything to say to Trujilo on the day he left Australia.
Weren’t we told by the MSM before Trujillo came here that he had down a lousy job with Telcos in the US. Why on earth we appoint him CEO here.
I am a very disgruntled Telstra shareholder Sol.
Phil
Sol was the ONE who started the Amigo thing. He labelled himself “amigo”
I thinks he doth protest too much
Using an emotive issue to hide gross incompetence is the lower scale of blowhards
Oz
“The only way they’ll change is if the cost of avoiding the tax is less than paying the tax itself. ”
Have you ever read Freakonomics? They give a great example of fines at childcare centres. If the fine is too low the parents will use it as a de facto after work child-minding facility (in fact they’ll be more likely to be late because they feel they have ‘paid’ for it). It’s very clear that taxes or fines that are designed to prevent people doing things must be sufficiently high to actually prevent them doing it. The tax expense for the company has to be higher than the cost of taking action…
And it will be. Just not in the first two or three years of the scheme.
For over a hundred years high polluting industries of these sort have NEVER paid for their CO2 emissions. I see no problem giving them a few years of low taxes before the REAL taxes kick in.
If they want the price of permits to stay low for longer, they will take voluntary action. If they do nothing, they will have to buy MORE permits that are MORE expensive than what otherwise would be the case.
Exactly Gus
ShowsOn
This is not a sudden surprise for these companies, and most already have started thinking about it and /or taking action – I gave you the ALCOA example above for instance. The companies that are unprepared for this are the ones which are being poorly managed and probably are the ones that should fail and get replaced by more carbon-ready ones. I don’t think there is any need for another couple of years of waiting.
Hey Vera – this is a big day. Not only have we got the ‘power’ but I can now do this quoting thing. Thanks Zoomster for your instructions.
We’re out to make some money Vera. lol
I haven’t read Freakonomics. I wasn’t basing my argument on the abstract but on what already happens in this country and all around in the world – in lots of areas, not just emissions.
ShowsOn is too busy hyperventilating over his (false) assertion that polluting industries have never had to pay for CO2 emissions to take seriously.
Turnbull’s argument is so weak. If the CPRS is legislated in July, then the result of Copenhagen can be taken into account when deciding on the reduction target.
There is no need to not pass the legislation in July, because the target isn’t part of the legislation.
Excellent, so they won’t need to buy as many permits.
More ad hominem. Great work. You’re argument is obviously weak as piss.
If it makes you happy to think so. =)
Sorry Oz, when exactly was it that indusry actually paid for CO2 emissions?
The target is, in fact, part of the legislation.
I refer you to the legislation:
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bills/r4127_first/toc_pdf/09091b01.pdf;fileType=application%2Fpdf
BH, we’d better watch out or Centre will be wanting his cut
We went over this a few weeks ago, so I won’t go into the detail, but NSW has had an emissions trading scheme running since 2003.
It seems that John Howard learnt something from the electoral loss in 2007 if this comment in his reference for Josh Frydenburg (a preselection candidate for Petro Georgio’s seat of Kooyong) is any guide.
“All political parties must undertake renewal of their parliamentary representation from time to time”
http://www.theage.com.au/national/howard-backs-former-aide-20090525-bktn.html
Vera – Centre said he will be gone for a few weeks. H’ll never know.
Thanks to Juliem for her link yesterday.
Pity John Howard hadn’t believed in renewal before now – if only for his reputation. Lucky for Kev that Howard couldn’t stand Costello.
Is Frydenburg right wing or moderate like Petro G.
From Guy Rundle, the world according to Clare Werbeloff:
ShowsOn
“Excellent, so they won’t need to buy as many permits.”
So you think they should be given the extra couple of years based on some idea of ‘fairness’?
Seems like it’s delaying for no particular reason to me. This has been talked about for almost two decades, if companies haven’t got contigency plans in place already I doubt they ever will.
Gus and PBs,
We are proud to be called the Amigos.
Because we ride, love and sing. The other Amigos were the great pretenders. And we wrote a song about and for them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP8xff2X46A
Geez parliament is rowdy today
….. Jenkins is loosing control 
Pyne about to be kicked.
coalition said over last weekend they intended to disrupt parliament this week.
They are now trying to make QT unworkable.
poodle being a prat again eh?
same old same old.
I have the distinct feeling that he gets off on this.
And its not like this is his first time
I think this will be a 24 hour kicking, not just the usual 1 hour.
Gary & GB (285/286),
We’ll take it (DD) any which way it comes, I’m not picky and don’t think Gary is either
Pyne leaves with big grin on his mug.
C.F.M.E.U. wants the CPRS passed:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25540799-29277,00.html
Pyne is a bigger prat than Senator Susan Prat
Oz 352
You seem to be saying that the ETS can not cause a change in the behaviour of industries because the cost imposed for them doing business as usual is too little.
I think that you know this is a ridiculous claim. If the cap for 2020 is 25% below 2000 levels then the cost imposed by the ETS (in the form of industry having to buy permits) is exactly the right cost to cause industry to change its behaviour so that it reduces pollution to 25% or more below 2000 levels.
No-one can now predict exactly what that cost will be (per permit) but we know that it will be exactly the right amount because there are only enough permits being auctioned to allow that much pollution.
So I really don’t understand your claims that this can not change behaviour.
Hockey huffing and puffing during his question. Had to run back from the loo?
But that itself is a change because the Government receives billions of extra revenue that they can use to invest in clean technologies.
Of course it is a ridiculous claim, but he thinks if he makes it over enough it will become true.
Put it this way. If you forget how economics actually works, his claim seems to make sense.
317,
Gee Johnnie taught you well
Bernard Keane Question Time tweets:
http://twitter.com/BernardKeane
Albo entertaining as ever
The Member for Flynn looks like a tough nut
Is there anymore elegant lady than Tanya Pilbersek? as well as being a very competent minister.
Finns, she’s a female Swanny
I wont forgive her for her performance on the Channel 7 Election coverage how she tried to act all cute and cuddly to Joe. I hope the Greens beat her to be frank.
Xenophon wants the CPRS voted on in August:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25540748-601,00.html
So that means if it gets blocked in August, and it gets blocked again in the 2nd week of December (after the Copenhagen conference) it will be a D.D. trigger.
Member for Dixon gets booted
who’s left?
I’m so very very glad that this cretin is out of power now ….
Hockey on his last warning
Juliem, here’s Pete
Yeah, Vera
….. I’ve been watching all day BUT just gave up the LCD tv for the computer broadcast about 15 minutes ago as atm, the laptop is NOT in the lounge room. We only put it in the lounge room on the weekends for tracking the stats of the footy games while ongoing. M-F it is somewhere else. Now I can listen and blog at the same time 
Wilson Tuckey is acting opposition leader.
Rush Limbaugh is more popular than Dick Cheney!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/25/cnn-poll-powell-vs-cheney-and-limbaugh/
Vera, what was the division for? I was on the phone and missed that part …. thanks
To kick Pyne for 24 hours.
He repeatedly refused to sit down.
juliem the speaker named Dutton and then Albo was able to ask that he be booted for 24hrs. There was then a show of hands for and against and a division to do the count ;
Showson I thought the poodle went earlier for an hour?
The vote was for Pyne to go.
The poodle got named and then a division was held to kick him for 24 hours. Dutton was only kicked for 1 hour.
Than’s gary, so many getting booted it’s hard to keep up
LOL! Andrew Southcott has to do Pyne’s job of speaking because Pyne isn’t allowed back in the chamber until tomorrow.
It was mentioned on Insiders that the opposition would do all they could to disrupt QT.
Expect more of the same.
ShownsOn
It’s time for you to send Pyne another email as his employer. How can he adequately represent his constituents if he’s always being thrown out? Ask him what steps he feels he needs to take to address his lack of discipline. He must get thrown out more often than any other pollie at the moment.
Ru, hope that the folks who live in the Lib held electorates let their member(s) know that they are not pleased ….. Even if you are a Lib yourself, you can’t be pleased at the childish behaviours displayed today ….
juliem the ALP did this kind of tactic whilst in opposition…
All sides when in Opposition go feral now and again you cannot blame the Libs.
So it didn’t worry you when Labor did it Glen?
The Libs have been feral since the 2007 election. It’s about time they accepted the result and got on with some constructive contribution.
Jenkins made a ruling yesterday that points of order would be noted in hansard but the “debate” would not.
So the Libs have shot themselves in the foot – as usual.
429, yeah, Glen I can blame the Libs. It is a free world
I’ve given up, his behaviour doesn’t change! He still takes points of order against standing orders that don’t exist (duration of questions), and refuses to accept that the government is just playing by the same rules of the one previous. I have sent an email through to a radio show that he is a guest on every Monday:
Why don’t you send it to Pyne directly?
Speaking of writing members in disgust about today’s QT, I’ve dashed off an email to mine. I knew I would have something to say sooner or later to a Lib sitting member
“The more bets you put on a racecourse the more chance you have to win” This was Pyne’s brilliant answer to a DD election being called.
Could someone educate him on probability.
I’ve done that before. He just replies with pithy answers.
I’m more interested in hearing how he justifies his behaviour on radio next Monday.
These Lousy Liberals. If employees in the private sector were this disruptive in THEIR workplace, the Liberals would advocate their instant WorkChoicing (dismissal). The Liberals, as usual, hold themselves to lower standards than the rest of the community.
Now to be fair he may have haemorrhoids and cannot sit down. The speaker should of least offered him some ointment or a doughnut cushion.
440,
Zombie, ROTFL
……. brilliant, mate 
Joe was in tears that night, the camera was good enough not to focus on him when he was getting teary and Tanya could see and feel his distress plainly.
It was very human and decent of her to try and offer some sort of comfort.
The Libs want to wait until we see what the US does on CC. Typical Libs.
We can only hope, if so, that he wasn’t being kicked in the @rse.
Anyone hear the ABC 702 (or whatever your state equivalent is) interview with the head of the principals association? Damn that guy is an idiot. Educating children is not about protecting their self-esteems – publicising information about academic performance is about being up-front and honest about the problems many schools face. A kid with a high self-esteem and a disingenuous perception of his or her academic ability is hardly helpful for their future.
No 443
ruawake, yes how typical of the Libs not to shoot from the hip, spend like there’s no tomorrow and consign Australia to economic oblivion for a generation.
No 442
If you thought Joe was teary, you should have seen ground zero at the Wentworth Hotel in Sydney. I was there. The (former) Primer Minister was the only one who remained composed.
GP
Glad you agree with Labor policy.
445,
Hope you don’t have any children any time soon mate.
Yes, but Joe was before the camera fairly constantly for quite a few hours with no colleagues to offer support, he did well actually.
To be in power and then have it all cut out from under you after such a long time would be very hard and emotional to handle.
Rather than be teary they should have been angry with Howard for SerfChoices, which was basically what got them thrown out. But, nope, they grovelled (and continue to grovel) to him instead. LOL
The tears were somewhat overdue. They had months to psychologically prepare. They knew they were gone for most of 2007.
Reminds of the Lazyboy song – Underwear goes outside the pants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G33WvuOw2cI
” I voted against climate change.” You can just see the TV commercials.
Rua but the Greens are just as likely to do the same thing.
453, especially if the ALP use the same ad agency that did their wonderful work choices commercials
I hope the ETS does to the Greens what the GST did for the Democrats.
Glen
The TV ads would feature all members and parties – Libs, Nats, Greens, X and FF. Its a simple message to sell.
Then there would be the Ads against the Lib-Nats. New school buildings, new housing, new roads etc. With ” I voted against ….” .
And aren’t the oh so pures looking like right mugs now
Talk about cutting one’s nose…
I’m pretty sure the oh so pures will be losing quite a few soft supporters back to the ALP.
A day or so ago, in anticipation, the Liberals’ decision on the ETS was being written up as “the defining moment” in Turnbull’s leadership. So what’ll be his defining moment? … “We’ll wait and see”. LOL
Saw Albanese early this morning on the replay with those photos which the poodle got so upset about – Classic – they should be made into great Press Ads
No 449
Juliem, why do you place self-esteem above honest academic performance? What good is it for a child that feels good about themselves because they’ve been given a false impression of their academic performance?
Please explain.
Ruawake
” I voted against climate change.”
I think the ALP would rephrase that somewhat. Of course you’d vote against climate change, no one wants it!
Astrobleme
I have worked in advertising – have you?
And what did the WA Greens use as an advertising Slogan in 2005 in WA – “The Greens – Give A Shit”, which I believe was also used by the Victorian branch, if not nationally.
http://www.vic.greens.org.au/shop/images/giveashit/image_thumb
Great way to alienate Middle Australia.
Ruawake
No.
It’s just that the logic is wrong, if you show ads with Nats, Libs, and X etc with a tag line of “I voted against Climate Change” I think people would think “Well, that’s great. I don’t want climate change”.
At best it’s ambiguous.
Perhaps think of a better ad… Maybe “I voted against preventing Climate Change” or something like that…
Frank,
My cat’s better than yours so there
NO Astrobleme.
The first 20 seconds is visual, floods, fires, smokestacks etc. The emotional bit.
The voice over at the end could say anything – but best to keep it simple. Trust me.
I voted FOR Climate Change.
Man that would have been a fun night. I wish I’d been there.
You mean like the ‘Give a damn’ slogan the Democrats used back in 1990? That led to their best election result ever, before it all started falling apart for them.
Ruawake,
Albo has a headstart on this with his pics from QT
Astrobleme, glad to see that you haven’t given in to the bullying behaviour of some on this blog (and no, I am not naming names)
Give A Damn is fairly innocuous, whereas “Give A Shit” has a four letter word which parents may not wish their children to be exposed to at such a young age – BIG difference.
How about “I voted for massive price rises and job destruction by a faceless Stalinist Canberra bureacracy”
How would that go down?
And as predicted by Zoomster, the so pure backup has arrived with a vengence
I’m quite hopeful that at the next election Labor makes customised campaign brochures for each electorate listing all the infrastructure projects that Labor members voted for, and Liberal and National members voted against.
462,
Good self esteem is always valuable. I believe that the gist of your original note on the ABC was that learning was not being conducted honestly in schools and that kids were getting grades erroneously. I don’t know of any school that my kids have ever been to that does this. Therefore, I think that the schools are great (such that I’ve had experience with them in either country, USA or Australia; and public schools too I might add) and I also value self esteem in my kids. My point was merely that if you are putting kids into schools that are giving them honest marks and trashing their self esteem as well, that isn’t a school I think that any kid should be in. If you know of such a school, you ought to report it.
Any decent school I’m aware of can do both and there isn’t anything wrong with reporting standards and scores to parents, that way they can have free choice if they want to move their kids. I’ve no problem with that as to my knowledge, no schools that meet the hypothetical standards you’ve mentioned exist.
The Greens ad would be:
We voted against global warming, climate change, dangerous climate change, irreversable climate change, armaggedon climate change.
Then when some Govt. actually had the balls to put some legislation to the parliament we voted against that as well.
We have the solution. Just don’t ask us how to acheive it – its not fair.
Not quite up there with “Labour isn’t working”…
re 480 – for those young un’s up past their bed time:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election2001/images/0,,449826,00.html
I think Fraser’s “Turn on the Lights” would be a good slogan for the Libs at the next election. After all, it did secure one of the biggest margins in electoral history.
As long as they are compact flouros.
The only hope the Libs have is “Please vote for us, we really are quite nice, we deserve to be in Govt. “
We live in a democracy. Whatever the Greens chose to do about the ETS will be judged at the next election, esp if it’s a DD on AGW. If people support their stance, they will get more senate seats; if people don’t their influence will drop.
It’s up to them to call it and roll the die; time will tell if they make the right decision.
And I guess the ALP’s response would be “The Liberal Party – still thinking it is 1975″.
The Village Idiot is not only racist, but he wins the lottery again.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/australia-bestplaced-to-beat-recession-20090526-blrg.html
Serves you right for voting for the Howard government.
FC @476
Your response says it all really – puerile and antagonistic are two words that spring to mind. You know absolutely nothing about me and yet that doesn’t stop you from making a personal attack. I was going to say in my original comment that my support for Astrobleme as expressed did not necessarily mean that I agreed or disagreed with this poster’s views. I am simply supporting s/he’s right to express views without the personal attacks which have occurred.
I refuse to give oxygen to those who run on visceral hatred and blind prejudice. I was on a union picket line the other day and me and my fellow picketers were subjected to foul abuse by an onlooker. Some wanted to take the fight up to him, others wanted to try and reason with him. Absolutely futile. I supported his right to express his views as long as he did not physically threaten anyone. What people like him can not tolerate is to be ignored. So when we turned our backs on him and refused to be provoked he went away.
Life is too short to engage with people who have closed minds.
Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle – you’ve proved mine and Zoomster’s point exactly – ANYONE dares criticises the oh so pure, and they get their faceless backup onto you like a ton of bricks.
Pegasus
You forget this is Polly Bludger – some of us have been insulting each other for years. Yet we still have a grudging respect. Recent posters may not fully understand.
Or “I voted to be screwed by a federal government which massively blew out my grocery prices with a dumbb bureacratic scheme called ETS but that was OK because they set up the dodgy grocerywatch website to kinda sorta tell me how much I was getting screwed”
The Greens are doing pretty well in the polls at the moment – by their standards. The COALition is polling badly by major party standards and the ALP well. I suspect that this will still be the case in a few weeks, after the ETS vote. The Greens will not lose support by sticking to their guns and the COALition can’t improve with this tactic. I really don’t know why they’re not supporting this ETS, they wanted a piss-poor one and they’ve got it.
Grog how about “Go for Growth” it’s bound to work eventually loL!
Finnigans 487, and the US nowhere in sight ……. I know I’m in the right place
If you bothered to read the explanatory memoranda, you’d find that increases in the CPI caused by the CPRS will be compensated for. For people below average family income, they will be OVER compensated. The money to fund this compensation comes from selling… wait for it…. carbon permits!
And now thanks to the oh so pure’s Pig Headedness, they will be getting ETS of ANY Description.
Try selling THAT to your supporters.
Pegasus 489,
AGREED …. in spades, hearts, clubs and diamonds
THM
It will be interesting if the ETS doesn’t pass and Labor doesn’t use it as a DD trigger. After the 2010 election, Labor+Greens will control the Senate (almost certainly). Then Labor only has to get the Greens on side to pass it’s ETS. It will be fascinating to see if Labor happily increases it’s mandatory target to get the Greens to pass it. (At the moment Labor can’t win, if they keep the Greens happy they lose FF and the bill fails, the Libs are their only hope)
My tremendous email:
The Libs have agreed with the ALP on targets – so the Greens have buckley’s chance of getting them changed.
So when the ALP and Libs finally sort out an ETS – why vote for the Greens?
THat should be NO ETS of any Description.
FC @490
So predictable
My final response because I do not want to bore the pants off everyone….a waste of time, I know…..
2 definitions of ‘personal attack’:
Apart from wanting 40% by 2020 is there any other reason why Christine Milne is voting against the ETS.
I haven’t really heard her say much about the cost to emitters but if the Greens acknowledge that we will still be using 60% coal for years to come what is the rest of her argument.
Diog
If the ALP wins a DD election – it will be their legislation that passes in a joint sitting. The Greens will be irrelevent. Thats wot a DD does.
Three Words.
Pot, Kettle Black.
ruawake
The premise of my 499 hypothetical was that Labor does NOT use the ETS as a DD trigger.
Also, isn’t it possible that even with a DD, there will be so many indies/Greens/FFs etc in the Senate that Labor still can’t pass it?
The big question is will the Nats vote with the Libs to send it to the productivity commission, even though Joyce said 2 weeks ago that he doesn’t want ANY ETS?
If the Nats want to kill this, they will vote against the Liberal motion to send the bills to the productivity commission. That means it will be blocked once in June, and then the Government could put it to parliament again in the last week of October to create a D.D. trigger.
Ooop sorry Diog, I misread your doesn’ts.
Ruawake @491
LOL. I might not post often but I have been lurking here for more that 2 1/2 years. I think I have sussed out the personal dynamics of PB by now.
If Labor still can’t get a majority of Senators to vote for it, and it gets knocked back again, then they got to a joint sitting.
I hope I haven’t been bullying. It would worry me if I had been.
However, I don’t back down from an argument and I call a spade a spade if I think I have to.
I don’t believe in indulging fuzzy thinking; in the long run it’s not good for the person involved.
BTW, I must go into the prediction business, I’m obviously quite good at it (queue j.v. asking me if I’m the best predictor in the room…)
Milne looks pretty chirpy about a DD. It has to be said that a CC election would play to the Greens strength. Mr X has now lined up with the Greens saying the targets need to be higher. It’s all up to Turnbull now.
It seems the oh so pures have a problem with that – especially when get exposed for the hypocrites that they are – Today’s ETS Desicion is a case in pont.
And watch the oh so pures being subject of the mother of all scare campaigns in the process.
Dio.
In all likelihood i’m really wrong, but i thought that when you have a DD you can then have a joint sitting of the two houses to pass the blocked legislation. You’d think that the ALP would then have the numbers regardless.
Even if the Greens supported it, it won’t pass until at least December because Fielding is supporting the Liberal position.
So the Greens will effectively help turn it into a D.D. trigger by blocking it, rather than sending the bills to the productivity commission.
In a strange way, the Greens are helping.
Here’s a parable for you Frank:
Bobby the Buffalo and Kev the Koala were having afternoon tea when all of a sudden a raging bushfire came rushing towards them. Bobby said “Gosh, we’d better do something to put that out”. Kev concured, handing Bobby a wet washcloth. “What?” exclaimed the noble buffalo is surprise, “that washcloth isn’t sufficent to stop that bushfire, I am not going to devote myself to such an inadequate response”. To this Kev replied “now thanks to your oh so pure’s Pig Headedness, we will be getting no anti-bushfire response of ANY Description”. Bobby was getting rather tired of Kev’s attitude, for as he saw it stoping the bushfire from engulfing them was still possible if they were willing to put in the hard effort. They just needed to get tough with Farmer Jones, by not giving in to his demands to sleep-in (even though the fire was rushing down on his cottage) so that he can help put out the fire with his fire tank and strong hose. Farmer Jones did eventually stir and after the fire was put out thanked Bobby for waking him, unlike Kev who was to much of a coward to disturd the rather unsociable Farmer Jones. Bobby and Farmer Jones didn’t always get on but they did live happily-ever-after. Kev on the other hand was exposed as the jerk he was, shortly afterwoods a fairy God-mother turned him into a sea-slug because he had no backbone.
THE END
#489, Pegasus, there used to be a lady who liked to charge around here at PB on her moral high horse, are you related to her?
According to this, if the Libs delay for a good reason then a delay may NOT be a DD trigger as it would not be an “unreasonable delay”.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2581371.htm
Somewhat disingenuous. Coalition + Fielding + X are all talking about knocking back ETS. So the Green’s support or otherwise would be irrelevant. The public will more likely punish the Libs in a double dissolution election on ETS than the Greens.
Yet another example of the Oh So Pure’s breathtaking hypocrisy. They getr perverse joy in hanging crap on ALP Posters, yet if we even give them a MILD serve, they get all defensive and take it as a personal affront.
As I said to Mr Horse – Pot, Kettle Black.
The Liberals are just wasting time. It could all be done by June, instead they are going to delay their decision for another 5 months after that, and then they’ll most likely vote for it.
In a joint-sitting you need 114 yes votes to pass a bill. If the ALP gets say 34 senators then they’d need 80 in the HofR’s. I think they would manage that easily but even if they fell just short then they could look for help from the cross benches of the HofR as well as the senate. What would the rural ex-Nat Independants think of the ETS?
We will know by next Thursday when it comes to a vote in the House.
Finns
Well derr.
Pegasus is a FLYING horse. Of course Pegasus looks like a high horse to a dolphin who can’t get more than 2m off the ground.
SNIP: See article 10 of comment moderation guidelines – The Management.
Re “failure to pass”. All that really matters is that the PM says to HE, “The Senate has failed to pass the CPRS bill and I want a DD.” The convention that the GG acts on the advice of the PM is so strongly entrenched now that it is very hard to see HE saying no. What constitutes “failure to pass” is entirely a matter for HE’s judgement. Her decision cannot be appealed or litigated.
Frank, Pegasus @ 506,
Pegasus, I am SO with you ………
Frank, I’ve tried many different ways to be nice about this both on and off the blog. I’ve tried obvious hints and more subtle ones. You aren’t taking any of them at all. Firstly, and aside from what I really wanted to say (the second point), I simply do NOT understand where all of the vitriol is coming from. It doesn’t mesh at all with the bloke I saw earlier this year.
Secondly and more to the point – The last time I ever considered voting Greens #1 was in the 2007 election as a protest to my (then) member who had voted for Beazley in the leadership spill. I was talked out of it by my other half mostly on the “this is your first election, don’t you want to vote for the winners #1″ line.
Now, moving around to present day. It has been purely the vehemence (sp?) of your words and the attitude you have displayed in the days since the by-election that has me now seriously considering again to vote Greens #1 next election and pref. Labor. I like and respect the Greens while I haven’t voted for them to date. Not to mention that one of my best girl friends is a “tree hugger” and in fact, works for the Dept. of the Environment. I can not settle in my mind being in the same party with someone who is as single minded and angry as you have shown yourself to be recently. That attitude is not me and not who I am. I’ve no choice but to move more left and I’m a fence sitter as it is. You say (in another post between the by election and now) that you are promoting Labor’s view point or words to that effect. You are a one man band and doing maximum damage. Please think twice about things before you post in that vein again as in fact your actions are having the opposite effect – they are chasing me away mate.
Ask on PB after the next election how I voted. If I’m in a generous mood, I will tell you.
William can you unblock 527 by snipping the particular Article 10 infringement.
You mean like when Peter Costello forced every retailer in the country to change their prices to include GST?
Stop reflecting on the chair!
bob1234 @ 511,
Someone else (Ruawake?) noted several weeks or more ago that he was hanging out for the joint sitting and was going to get the popcorn all warmed up
…. me too,
I’ve never seen this before and whether the Libs leader is MT or someone else, I will be there with bells on eating my popcorn
Hear hear!
Diog, i was watching a movie the other day on the World Movie channel, the Motorcycle Diary based Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara:
It was at the Knowledge Tree at Machu Picchu that Che crystallised his revolutionary idea, especially he was struck by the destruction of the native civilization that built the beauty of MP and was replaced by the ugliness of Lima.
No 532
We are not in Parliament.
Nope. If you don’t want your comments snipped, obey the rules.
How about “I voted for flaccid Labor hacks and parasites to feed off your hard earned.”
525,
Shows, have we confirmed next TH is the vote date? Cheers
Zoomster said:
And so do I
And that can be done without being disrespectful of the person.
By the by, I am a bit slow here because when I catch up with the posts on this blog the conversation has moved on…
Zoomster, I agree with your view that there is an elephant in the room re global warming, viz standard of living, the aspirations of the majority world to emulate our lifestyle, etc. At the same time I am convinced that we, in Australia, would not sustain any great drop in our standard of living if a much tougher reduction target than that proposed by Rudd was adopted.
I continue to read with great interest the continuing debate here on global warming (and imo it aint no pissing contest)
If this was the intellectual depth of the first term what would be the excitement of the second term? Bill of rights? Julia Gillard mandated “youth education centres”, Free speech regulations from John Faulkner?
Che Guevera was a cold blooded commo killer. Period.
Does Julia Gillard still give away Workchoices mousepads? I need a new one…
No Glen but they’ll make your life “fair”.
No 544
Actually I’m in the market for one too…..
It has to pass the House by next Thursday at the latest so that it can be considered by the Senate in the last week of June. The Senate has a rule called ‘Cut Off’ which means the Senate usually can’t vote on bills passed by the House at the same sitting.
Frank Calabrese
Sigh. What the hell are you on about? How did I take that as a personal affront? You can take any stance on any topic you want and if I disagree, well yes I might “hang crap on” you and if thats perverse then I’m perverse. All I see is you going on about pots and kettle’s again (a term you use excessively) but I don’t quite know what it is in reference to so I can’t agree or disagree about that. If your claim is that the ‘o-so-pure’ defend their position when people make observations about them that they disagree with then I concure. In the words of Osama bin Laden “Why can’t we all just get along?” –
jokes
Juliem – DDs are not all that much fun. It means a lot of wasted time in electioneering instead of running the country.
3 years is short enough as it is to get things done. And you will get Steve Fielding back in the Senate. We need a full term to get a new Senator in his place, hopefully either a Labor or Green one.
Xenophon does his job far more conscientiously for the nation than does Fielding – he is a very blinkered person.
So let’s go full term and take the consequences then.
5 biggest failures of the Rudd Government to date:
1) Housing Stimulus package (chockas of pork for Labor marginals amongst other things) with zero effect on housing affordability. Sports rorts for the naughties.
2) Fuel Watch & Grocery Watch (so insignificant they only count for one)
3) the 2020 summit
4) Jenny Macklin (just because)
5) Failure to get tough with the Labor States. (A Labor PM should have taken the stick to this bunch of parasites)
Let’s all recall that the first Howard government term featured SEVEN ministers losing their jobs for improperly claiming electoral and travel allowances.
ESJ
In fairness to Che, he didn’t discriminate. He was equally happy to shoot people from both sides. He shot almost as many defectors as opponents.
ESJ they also promised to save the whales…they havent done so.
I would say he was hot-blooded commo killer.
By the way, if he had been a a cold-blooded commo-killer, as opposed to a cold-blooded commo killer, would you have a better opinion of him?
Adam his end was just. Naive people in the West still idealise the commos. No doubt the modern ALP still has people who are “nostalgic” for the commos.
Were you ever a fellow traveller? Even in your misspent youth?
ESJ @ 549, taking all of those points excepting #4 one by one – what would you replace them with or what would you have had Labor do instead that would have made you happy?
Haven’t you learnt yet with these Liberal stooges?
When Labor does it, it’s pure evil. When the Liberals do it, it’s not worth a mention!
No 556
Bob, stick to hugging trees.
Glen the whales of course. These are the people who are paying more for school demountables than proper bricks and mortar schools too!
In about 5 years time the massive abuse of the “stimulus” will also come out. Homes never built schools never renovated etc etc.
Juliem @529 said about FC
Exactly! However he is but one, not necessarily typical of the party as a whole.
No 555
Call an election and run no candidates, paving the way for a Liberal domination of Parliament.
Careful Edward StJohn
You disagree with the ALP and are therefore a black kettle. Your attack on the ALP government means that you are diffensive and a hypocrite because you don’t agree with people that you disagree with but want those same people who disagree with you to agree with you. Therefore we needn’t bother actually pointing out the problems with your argument. We can just rant some rubbish about pots and kettles. In the future if you wish to disagree with the ALP on anything please ensure that you do so in a way that endorses ALP policy because otherwise you are a hypocrite.
Since the PM is keen on bringing props to parliament, I say there should be a return of cardboard Kev.
ESJ, I was more than a fellow-traveller, as I recited during the “political show and tell” the other night. I was in rapid succession a pacifist, an anarchist, a maoist, a eurocommunist, a hippy, a gay liberationist and a libertarian, before settling comfortably into the right wing of the ALP. As they say, “travel broadens the mind.’
I think Kev deserves a round of applause. He’s even managed to get a reaction out of you from it!
No 564
Bob, there’s a eucalyptus tree awaiting your embrace.
Excitement fellow bludgers.
I’m off to QT tomorrow. Should be exciting!
Speaking of props, Albo’s demolition of Lib-Nat hypocrisy on the stimpac spending in QT today was just devastating. Lib and (particularly) Nat MPs are putting out press releases to their local papers claiming credit for schools and roads funding, paid for from the stimpac which they voted against! Scott, Forrest and Chester are particularly shameless.
Pegasus
I’m don’t know whether to be amused or horrified by the rapid clearing of the room when I raised the question of standard of living.
As an activist, I’ve been prepared to make personal sacrifices – loss of career, loss of money, vilification etc – for my beliefs. I’m not boasting or asking for pity, or whatever, but just sayin’ that’s what happens if you have real belief in what you’re on about.
So to me, one of the first questions you ask yourself when tackling an issue is how far you’re prepared to take it – is this something you’d risk your marriage for? are you prepared to go to jail? etc etc. It’s a precautionary thing – it’s easy to get carried along in the ‘vibe’ of a thing and then realise you’ve ended up in a situation which isn’t worth the price. If you’ve set the perameters to start with, you can step back when things get out of hand.
It also gives you moral authority when arguing with others – I’m prepared to do this, what are you doing?
So to me, it was natural that once I accepted that climate change was real that I not only acted but I looked at the price I was prepared to pay.
And that’s all I’ve asked posters here to do – to nominate how much they’d be prepared to cut their standard of living if by doing so cc could be realistically halted.
I said it was hypothetical.
I also said you can’t expect governments to do things people won’t accept.
The willingness to make personal sacrifices is a powerful political tool.
I love how on the radio they preface an audio soundbite from QT by saying Rudd savages Turnbull and then Rudd in his whinging voice rattles on garbage and it has the impression of being beaten with warm lettuce.
Rudd is not an attack dog and he is a weak Parliamentary performer probably our worst since Fraser.
Rudd’s attempt at getting mad is so lame it is almost comedy.
Frank
Here’s something to look forward to. Spinal Tap are back and playing at Glastonbury.
Turn it up to 11!!
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25539856-16601,00.html
I’m going in to bat for Frank, the other side of the coin is that this blog could turn you off greens for life! It has me.
lol just joking… i think?
hey Glen if it keeps up I could end up over there with you and GP
Aint that true, pre 2007 I learnt firsthand how much you can lose, but also how much you really gain when you put beliefs ahead of ambition
GP, if the Libs don’t like the props that are showing up in QT this week, they ought to make themselves scarce when the photo opportunities arise. I would normally give anyone in those shoes the benefit of the doubt when assuming they are smart enough to realize that their “photo” opportunity may come back to haunt them. But the parliament camera that honed in on the member for Gippsland this afternoon showed a man who was clearly so deeply embarrassed by what Albo had just tabled that I guess I am wrong. It was genuine embarrassment on his face and I could see he honestly was caught between a rock and a very hard place at that point. They could save themselves that degree of embarrassment by voting for the bloody stuff in the first place. Party loyalty is one thing but you are representing your constituents and the truth always comes to the fore, whether Albo or someone else is the messenger
Hey now it is becoming more even now, what with more Tory Brethren onboard.
GP
Glen
ESJ
Also Adam and ShowsOn chip in now and again against the rabid left.
Pollbludger has moved to the Centre for once…
i notice the unholy alliance is in full bloom. yes, let the thousand flowers bloom
GP
Glen
ESJ
the 3 “really” bad amigos
I would have thought you’d call us the three stooges but hey?
No, he is the weakest since Howard.
Let a hundred flowers bloom , let a hundred schools of thought contend.
Of course I remember how capitalist roader Number 1 ended up.
Finnigans @ 519
Would be rude not to respond to your queston.
‘Self righteous’, ‘pure’, ‘high moral horse’ – words used in a prejorative manner by those who have no other comeback.
glen, we amigos are generous people
No 569
Hear hear. Rudd’s feigned indignation is pathetic.
Quote of the year so far, from MT:
Vera, it has me also. They have become full of them selves.
Yes you lefties like giving handouts to people who dont really need them lol.
They were funny and made sense!
577 Glen,
that implies something which is funny, slapstick comedy. To date, I’ve only seen this out of MT, Pyne, Hockey, etc. You blokes here on PB haven’t reached their level of slapstick comedy yet
Julie, I didn’t see Chester looking embarrassed, but I’ll take your word for it. I did see Forrest laughing, as though it was all a big joke to be caught out lying to your electors so brazenly. I had some respect for Forrest when he resigned as Nat Whip over the asylum seekers issue, but not after today’s performance.
No 586
Putting you in Villawood detention centre would be funny, actually.
Juliem you obviously werent on PB when i was ranting in German about General Wenck coming to rescue Mr Howard.
That was considered amusing by some.
This is hilarious considering the Liberal’s infrastructure policies are always hijacked by the Nationals who turn them into a pork barrelling exercise.
The current government is spending money in EVERY electorate in the country, Labor, Liberal, National or Independent.
Ah, it’s nice to know that common sense centrism gets the credit it deserves.
Other than increasing tobacco taxes, and blocking the government from removing his private health insurance subsidy, what would Turnbull do different?
No, it is the Liberals that are blocking the means test on the private health insurance industry hand out.
…and pitiable by others.
Musikemp, yeah they make my head hurt
By the way hope you didn’t get flooded out, you’re up the north coast aren’t you?
Only by the Wenckers
No, Glen, I admit I missed that …. I think, actually though, if that was in the leadup to the 07 election I was on PB at that point (I came on board about 5 to 7 months prior) but I made a studious effort in those days to avoid your posts LOL ….. now I can tolerate them. Don’t know if that means you are moving to the center or if I am
And it’s Labor giving $950 cheques to dead people.
Vera, getting geared up for SOO?
So what, that means it goes to their next of kin.
Juliem if it helps i have never identified myself with the far-Right I consider myself Centre-Right there are several issues that i cross over with relation to some social issues. For some i am more left than others and others i am more right wing.
No 597
Thanks for admitting your support for Labor waste and mismanagement.
Juliem, I’ll get geared up
but what’s SOO?
GP, and the Libs have never accidentaly given out money to dead people or pets (because they didn’t do their homework)? I think all governments have made that bo-bo at one time or another.
You should admit that the Liberals support subsidising the PRIVATE health insurance of millionaires.
All non Liberal supporters should be detained until further notice.
The dead will always be better off under a labor Govt
Vera,
State Of Origin in the non AFL areas
It is cheaper to hand out the money rather than setting up a bureaucratic procedure to have it returned.
But what would you expect from the Liberals. Lindsay Tanner pointed out last year that under Nick Minchin’s incompetent ‘watch’ the Department of Finance sometimes appropriated such small amounts of money that the administrative costs exceeded the value of the money handed out.
602,
AND the private schools as well ……..
No 606
Lindsay is respectable, but he clearly neglects to mention the fabulous finances he inherited from Minchin and co.
Labor treats the dead with respect so they will go on voting for us, duh.
Yes Vera we are stuck in Yamba, can’t drive out. What a terrible place to be stuck. NOT.
No 607
Julie, Gough Whitlam introduced funding for private schools and he’s an idol in the Labor party. Might want to ask him about that.
The Department of Finance determines how government departments spend money. You are confusing it with the Treasury.
Juliem yep I’ll be watching, but i only get my gear on for the Bunnies
No 612
No, I’m confusing nothing. Minchin was part of the Government that delivered the current Labor Government the best finances imaginable.
No 609
Unfortunately, the living have to work more than four months of the year for the Government for that to occur. Such abject thievery.
GP granted he was probably more interested in giving money to Catholic Independent schools GP to shore up political support after the collapse of the DLP.
ALPers who would you rate as your top 3 PMs???
For the Tories…this is my top 3!
1. Robert Menzies
2. John Howard
3. Joseph Lyons
GP, I’ve never claimed to like every last decision made by my parties man, whether in the USA or here. I’m the first to admit, even earlier tonight, that I lodged a protest vote against Carter, for Reagan, because I was unhappy with with Carter. PJK is my hero and I don’t like every last thing he says/does either.
can you honestly say that you are happy as a clam with every last thing JH has said or ever done?
…….
It didn’t actually, the budget was in technical deficit by early 2007.
One reason it was in technical recession was because Minchin didn’t bother finding ANY savings in the last Howard government term.
As Tony Abbott says, he believed in magic pudding economics, and didn’t bother about making any savings.
Tanner has already found $3 billion of structural savings in two budgets.
No 616
My favourite three:
1. John Howard
2. John Howard
3. John Howard
Glen 616,
1. PJK
2. John Curtin
3. tie between #1 and #2
Musikemp, my hubby is up around Lismore house hunting at the moment, he picked a good time for it
Barton and Deakin were decent enough… it went downhill after that.
Of course I approve of Menzies running a budget DEFICIT every year he was PM and BORROWING and running up DEBT to invest in infrastructure. He must have been a secret socialist.
Juliem im surprised your lot doesnt put Malcolm Fraser in there loL.
GP I know Howard was good but he was only PM once.
Oh Glen, I did think about it, but you only asked for the top 3
Glen, Malcolm Fraser is a bit like Colin Powell at the moment, he has an identity problem
According to Possum’s calculator, in this financial year, one must earn $191373 or more to pay 4 months worth of tax.
So your claim is wrong on the grounds of ridiculous exaggeration. Most people don’t earn close to $191,373 p.a.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/05/26/tax-free-days/#more-4847
You ARE ESJ’s love child! You said the magic password to gain access to the irrational libertarian cult.
Indeed they have only just realised how much their political party of choice has changed.
Glenn Piggott is a member of Matt Brown’s winthrop branch, you would expect him to be the leading challenger against Jensen. Lyons is outside the division, and is infact from Curtin so the chances of her winning are very slim.
Vera, at least he can easly spot the low lying areas.
What about those double payments re Family paymentsB which where then Howard decided not to get the money back, because it was tooo politicly hard. How you Howard Huggers forget when it suits.
Also Adam and ShowsOn chip in now and again against the rabid left.
Yes its good to hear from the narcissitic duo!
Bullbutter Average Joe…
People like Dynasties and the Lyons one is worth pursuing…
Also a talented woman getting a safe seat is also important for our party lest we look like an old boys club.
I think she’s got runs on the board with her corporate life that she has something to offer more than your average factional party hack IMHO.
My favourite three:
1. John Howard
2. John Howard
3. John Howard
619, no imagination as per usual
Glen 623,
Glen, I am an issues person and NOT a vote my party blindly person. If I can find a pollie who is not of my party BUT supports positions that I agree with, I have no problems at all embracing that person.
So would you vote Green if Kevin doesnt live up to the hype?
SO
Don’t forget that calculation is just income tax. There’s GST, excises on petrol, cigs, alcohol and all the list goes on. It’s quite frightening how much of our working lives is for the Govenment (and it would be no different if the Libs won).
No 632
Finns, I can’t recall the last time I saw or experienced your imagination.
5 Labor Minister ready for the chop at the November reshuffle:
1. Joel Fitzgibbon
2. Robert McClelland
3. Penny Wong
4. Swannie
5. Tony Burke
Please excuse my typing.
Hands up who thinks ESJ and GP are the same person.
No 637
Perhaps Belinda Neale should be installed as Climate Change Minister. That way she could be asking fellow Ministers in Copenhagen “don’t you know who I am” and all would be well for Australia’s economic future.
5 Opposition Leaders ready for the chop some time over the summer:
1. Malcolm Turnbull
2. Malcolm Turnbull
3. Malcolm Turnbull
4. Malcolm Turnbull
5. Malcolm Turnbull
Excellent suggestion GP.
Edward
What about Peter Garrett and Conroy? They’d be at the top of my list.
Am I the only one who noticed that the Deccan Chargers, the team that one the IPL, is owned by India’s version of Ron Jeremy?
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5609/ron.jpg
MSNBC.COM reporting that Obama will announce his supreme court nominee today.
5 more Opposition Leaders ready for the chop:
1. Barry O’Farrell
2. Ted Baillieu
3. Martin Hyphen-Hyphen
4. That guy in Tasmania
5. That other guy
I want Shorten, Gray, Kelly and Combet to get more action!
No 641
Well, Kevin Rudd will be opposition leader by summer, after losing dramatically in a DD, so you are mightily incorrect.
Come now Adam, as a seasoned observer of the scene surely you cannot dispute – some of the comrades will need to be dispatched to the knackers.
Swannie,McClelland and Fitzgibbon are obvious, Wong is not able to sell ETS and Burke couldnt even meet Cabinet deadlines for submissions to be lodged on reforming drought assistance from a report received in October.
Seems obvious doesnt it?
I’ve got a bigger one than you.
Diogenes, one of the unwritten criteria for promotion/demotion is the effect on the Gillard succession.
The anti-Gillard forces will only get a go for giving Medicare Gold Tm the nod as Treasurer.
Set aside the GST, petrol, alcohol, tobacco taxes can all be avoided or reduced, by lifestyle choices. Income taxes can’t be avoided.
G.P.’s constant mantra that people work for the government for 1/3 of each year is FALSE for the overwhelming majority of people.
Yo Ho HO,
Oh yeah put the “coal miner” in, I for one would love to see that!
Yes they can. You can work as a volunteer.
Don’t you wish ESJ.
But I might give you Fitzgibbon.
There won’t be a DD, Rudd is just playing with Malcolm’s mind.
Bill Shorten is Minister for Um, Kate Ellis is Minister for Ah.
Adam why do you suspect GP and ESJ to be the same person?
You should get out more ESJ. Everyone in Canberra knows that Swan is proving a stellar performer, he’s the best Treasurer since Keating. And if Turnbull is still Liberal leader this time next year, I’ll eat a chocolate muffin with extra chocolate.
Because they sound identical. Even their joke lines are identical (and unoriginal).
I love your partiinost Adam. V.Good.
No 658
Rubbish Psephos. He’s about on par with Jim Cairns.
ESJ
Perhaps Shorten (the coal miner) and Gray (the former woodside exec) would be perfect in the Wong and Garrett roles?
Oh yeah GP, Swannie will probably be the first “Labor” diplomatic appointment.
No 662
Wong would be perfect for Veteran’s Affairs.
No YHH Shorten is not the coal miner
GP couldnt see Wong doing the teas at the local RSL?
ESJ
Gillard must be getting pretty peeved with her lot in life. I heard a very brave soul unloading on her on JJJ about the problems with the changes to the student allowance meaning people on a gap year won’t get the allowance next year.
A nice lady on a gap year asked Julia “Which one is it? Are you completely incompetent or do you just not care?”. Julia was not amused one little bit. The students really had a point though and she floundered terribly.
This is the man Adam thinks is the best Treasurer since Keating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtEyAe1QqCg
*departs*
Friend of mine!
No 666
At least she’d be out of sight, out of mind.
Diogenes,
The problem for the Federal ALP is the State ALP will sink them. They (the Feds) have bet the bank on the State ALP governments delivering the stimulus package.
Would you trust your State Government to intelligently spend billions in a timeframe of months? As a Greens voter from inner Sydney I can assure you I dont.
No they’re not. ESJ writes well informed nonsense. G.P. writes ill-informed rubbish.
They are different versions of the same thing, but not identical.
We did a lot of that at the last election. That’s how we managed to get Shorten, Combet, Dreyfuss, Arbib, Feeney, and Marles all elected in ONE election.
Mean while, the Liberals still have space wasters such as Wilson Tuckey, Bronwyn Bishop, Andrew Southcott, Philip Ruddock, Kevin Andrews, and Peter Costello sitting in parliament.
No 667
Students rarely have a point. They want something for nothing, all the time.
Oh yeah ShowsOn the coal miner. Talent with a big T, lol.
Glen, at the moment, I’m still comfortable enough with Kevin to continue to vote ALP#1.
The only thing at the moment which has my dander up hasn’t a chance of getting passed imho. That is Conroy and his net censorship rubbish. I am not 100% happy with immigration/refugee policy but it is better than your mob’s efforts so an improvement upon previous norms is all I can hope for there. I would wish a republic but have to content myself with the fact that it is in the party platform and be patient. Climate change, an improvement upon the previous norms so good enough. Excepting Conroy, there isn’t anything he has done (off of the top of my head) that I’m unhappy with. Multiple items/policies where he could do more but at least he IS doing something.
Ask me that question again if net censorship gets passed into law
…… and as per my words to Frank C. earlier, “ask me again after the next Federal election who I voted for. IF I’m in a good mood, I’ll tell you.” (otherwise, I’ll keep to my own counsel)
It will be funny when he is the next P.M., while the Liberals still have Wilson Tuckey and Bronwyn Bishop in parliament! I look forward to that.
JULIEM @ 529 Go Girlfriend!!!
ESJ who will succeed Turnbull, Hockey or Costello??
Dio,
Pete IS the man
…… but I agree with you on Conroy. Not only goes he need to go quick smart, but they need to change policies in that department asap as well.
ShowsOn Julia MC Tm Gillard will be the next PM.
No 680
And her voice will be the prime obscenity of Australia.
V!M
Turnbull will lose the next election with a respectable margin (not dissimilar to Howard)
Costello will replace him 18 months in.
ESJ
Nope. They might get lucky though, you know like the million monkeys typing and one coming up with “It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times”.
Oz
No way! I though Julia was going to reach down the line and strangle her. I was wincing in the car. Tell her she did a great job. She should use her time in the Witness Protection Program wisely.
5 MP’s who have no future in Federal politics.
1. Malcolm Turnbull
2. Peter Costello
3. Tony Abbott
4. Joe Hockey
5. Julie Bishop
Damn, why did I limit it to 5?
GP,
Didn’t anyone tell you you shouldn’t be posting on PB when you are sleepwalking? You are coming from a dream world mate
I doubt it. The Right has a majority in the Labor caucus for the first time since the late 1960s, they won’t make someone from the Left P.M.
Moreover, Gillard and Rudd are about the same age. The next Labor leader needs to be at least 10 years younger than Rudd. My guess is Rudd and Gillard will retire on the same day in 2014.
Now Now Winston,
Every govt needs a little freshening, surely all that ALP “talent” on the backbench including the coal miner needs a go?
Some of the piggies will need to be knackered for the “talent” to have a go.
Julia did get ripped, but she deserved too. It’s going to have enormous consequences on lots of students, especially those from regional areas. Senator Hanson-Young, The Greens education spokesperson has gotten plenty of calls and letters from students and is against the changes and will refer them to an inquiry.
Your inability to recognise all the absolute dead wood on the Liberal back bench is duly noted.
At least Glen accepts that the ALP currently have more talented MPs than the Liberals.
Zoomster @ 568
I lost a job, one that I was totally committed to, because I refused to scapegoat a colleague, took issue with upper management about out sourcing and restructuring within the unit that i worked and I dared to join a union in a non-unionised workplace. Rather than going quietly, I stood up to management and went public within the organization. Subsequently, 60% of its workforce joined the union.. My union advised me that I had been unfairly dismissed but there was no likelihood of being re-employed by them. I have not returned to the same level of professional employment, not because I felt beaten, quite the opposite, I felt empowered, but because I decided to take my life in another direction. I saw my dismissal as an opportunity.
We live and have always lived a relatively simple life. It would take too long for me to outline what we are doing. One example, which I hope will give some indication of our lifestyle – our total daily water usage (there are 2 of us) is 100 litres of water and is sufficient to support a medium sized garden which includes vegetable patch, herb patch, and dwarf fruit trees.
But this does not absolve the government from taking a leadership role.
Penny Wong on Lateline – how fun.
Oz
The poor saps from the country who were taking a gap year to earn enough to put them through Uni were the ones I thought Gillard had really stuffed up. I agreed with your friend. Either Gillard stuffed up completely or she just didn’t care. It just wasn’t good enough.
LOL Pegasus,
How do you feel that your union probably spent the extra dosh you generated on ALP political activities?
Come now ShowsOn,
Your the seer of all things ALP now that Adam has departed. Who will not survive the first term? Gives us three?
Your “critical” opinion on the ALP is much more interesting than your hack talk on the Libs.
It’s those people I sympathise with, partly because I know a lot of them. I accept the argument that Youth Allowance is relatively easy to rort and these changes close some of the loopholes, but they leave an awful lot of people out in the cold.
I hope it’s an honest mistake, and if Gillard is decent enough she’ll accept it was a bad move, change it and move on.
get it right ESJ!
Its Hackle not Hack, dont you fibs ever learn
Bob Debus will most likely retire at the next election.
Julie Irwin will probably have massive pre-selection difficulties, her seat will likely be taken by Warren Mundine.
There are rumours Robert McLelland will retire at the next election so that he can take up a diplomatic post in London or New York.
You don’t have a critical opinion towards anything, because you can’t construct logical arguments.
It is NOT surprising that in the FIRST term of a new government, the opposition will be full of dead wood. Most of the people who are ministers now were elected in 1998, NOT 1996. I was just pointing out the obvious FACT that the Liberals need to get rid of a HEAP of members at the next election so they have good ministers in 2 or 3 elections from now.
Gillard’s Triple J appearance:
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Ministers/Gillard/Media/Transcripts/Pages/Article_090525_094512.aspx
The massive one is rich families ‘paying’ their children salaries out of businesses or trusts which then qualifies them for independent status.
So the money goes from parent to child and back to parent simply to make the child eligible for a government hand out.
V.good ShowsOn – c not so hard?
ON another note I am breathing a massive sigh of relief. Thank God Penny Wong has flown to Paris to save my wretched self from climate change.
I hope she didnt feel guilty about the carbon generated by her jumbo, a little material pollution for cleansing a lot of spiritual pollution is a fair trade.
No 700
Produce some numbers. At the end of the day, such a consequence can’t be stopped.
Students should be made to work, not leech off the Government.
Lol ShowsOn,
Logical arguments its like commos who talk about scientific marxism.
Same old bureacratic Labor. Keating sadly was not a new start but an aberration.
If it isn’t hard, then surely YOU will be able to do it!
Shame on you GP 702 – surely the 66 yr old metalworker should be grateful to work 2 extra years to pay for the subsidised education of the middle class in “community studies”?
What do you mean PRODUCE SOME NUMBERS! At the moment if a family recycles money to their children through a business or trust it is LEGAL, they CAN do it. The Government is saying that is an unfair RORT and are changing the laws accordingly. According to the Bradley review, 10% of students who receive Youth Allowance independent status are from families that earn $100,000 or more a year. 10% of those are from families that earn more than $200,000 a year!
Surely YOU can accept that the money should go to students from families that earn a lot less than that.
Keating was an aberration in terms of ALL Australian politics. There is no other politician who has implemented policies that were in such contradiction to the pre-existing orthodoxy of his party.
The increased pension rules don’t apply to people who are currently 66.
Keating was a great PM ShowsOn. True reformist.
The Liberals need some generational change desperately, the likes of Tuckey/Ruddock/Brony Bishop SHOULD be dumped immediately. And that character who leads the National Party is a joke.
Labor ministers I’d demote in a reshuffle:
Debus
Fitzgibbon
Conroy
Chris Evans
McClelland
Who I’d promote:
Shorten
Combet
Mike Kelly
Mark Dreyfus
Mark Arbib
That’s silly – you’re presuming that there is an untoward circumstance or that the child clearly isn’t involved in any work. The problem with this Government is that it thinks working is a rort.
And, welcome back ESJ, I’ve missed you!
No 709
Arbib is hopeless. What is so impressive about him? He’s a mealy-mouthed Conroy.
Thanks Evan 14.
The fact that we waste safe seats on dead wood shows we are out of touch.
The fact that Ruddock, B. Bishop and Wilson Tuckey have safe seats and are over 60 is a joke!
We are missing out on potential ministers or leaders by leaving this dead wood in Parliament.
The Liberals will always perform better under Nobody
Shows
apropos the liberal average ages in parliament, I think I have discovered the reason
The best. But of course, it takes Labor governments to actually reform the economy. The Liberals are always tied down by the Nationals.
That’s because it is a rort. The Bradley review found that family businesses are often used to structure payments to family members.
The problem with 21st century Liberal hacks is that they haven’t seen a government hand out they don’t like. They seem to think if there are government payments for middle class families, then ALL families should get them. That’s how the Howard government managed to stuff the budget.
Arbib’s a complete dropkick.
People talk about Combet and Shorten being brilliant up and comers but I don’t see what’s so amazing about them. Or even anything that distinguishes them for any other union officials parachuted into parliament.
Oz
Cameron is a dropkick too that ‘irishman’ lol!
He’s only there cos hes a Union hack.
Glen: I’m in Berowra, and Ruddock has the MP here for what seems like 100 years, he’s only sticking round for the next election to stop the seat going to someone from the religious right.
Please explain ShowsOn – re Combet and Shorten what did either achieve of any merit prior to entry to parliament or that matter since?
No 718
Exactly. Having said that, the Greens have nothing to boast about either.
Evan then he needs to groom someone else to take the seat over from him then!
Just holding a seat until you die is not cool.
And I agree that the ALP should dump Julia Irwin, both Fergusons, Crean too(he’s been there long enough).
Its hard to be the knacker I guess Evan.
Glen, I agree, Ruddock looks like he died years ago, god knows how he’s kept alive.
Bob McMullan too Evan he’s deadwood aswell.
Eh, not sure about that. But no one really cares about The Greens or touts their MP’s as future PM’s so I don’t quite see the comparison.
They both helped ENDED John Howard’s time as Prime Minister!
Combet campaigned constantly for compensation for asbestosis and mesothelioma sufferers (like my late grandfather).
Bill Shorten lead the largest union in the country.
They BOTH campaigned against WorkChoices, the most convoluted and bureaucratic industrial relations system this country has ever had.
Wrong Answer ShowsOn
a) Did Combet campaign EFFECTIVELY for compensation for asbestos?
b) Did Shorten lead his union EFFECTIVELY?
Answer please.
Both Shorten and Combet went straight into Parl Sec roles, where all reports are they are doing well.
Other former union leaders, like Jennie I-used-to-know-her-surname and somebody-else-I-can’t-remember haven’t done so well.
(I’m willing to believe it’s my memory that’s at fault, not the union leaders in question not being memorable…)
Shorten is very passionate about the disabled, he’d make a good community services minister.
Someone who’s been spoken of as a potential future Labor govt minister: Jason Clare, the MP for Blaxland.
Reports indicate the asbestos fund is broke 4 years after the “deal”.
The AWU had lower membership at the end of Shorten’s reign than when his reign commenced.
EFFECTIVE OR INEFFECTIVE ShowsON?
breaking news ….
it would be zero if howie was still in power
And still they helped get rid of howard
I like how everytime he goes on Q&A the same lady mentions her particular case and he does the whole “I’ll talk to you after the show” thing.
ESJ @ 708, may I take that post as evidence you voted for him? If so, good on you
Proof!
Otherwise you should withdraw such a remark.
No 734
Another left wing hack who thinks affirmative action is a great policy. Fail.
No 738
Just watch the Q&A episodes in which he is a guest. Oz is right.
At least my wrong answers are better than your dodging and weaving whenever any of your ludicrous claims are challenged.
You still haven’t explained the flaw in free market thinking that free transactions can be beneficial in the short term, and in the long term make buyers and sellers both worse off. But of course it is easier for you to just ignore any direct challenge to your incoherent ideology.
Well this guy named Bernie Banton says yes.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1842803.htm
Re 734,
further from the same article,
that is in one hour from the moment of this post if he is on time. Anyone who cares to see and has cable tv, A-Pac and/or Sky will probably stream this live …..
Indeed Juliem 737
No 737
Keating wanted a republic, so that automatically strikes him off the list as an eligible “best” PM.
I have no problem with minorities being given spots so long as they are not given spots based on them being minorities.
We should only judge people based on their qualifications not on their ethnicity.
Why is that the union’s FAULT, that is James Hardie’s fault.
But of course it is just convenient for a Liberal hack like you to to blame a union rather than a company.
Eh? Both times he’s been on Q&A the same lady has asked him the same question and he’s given the same response.
Not sure what you’re asking proof of.
Ahh, So I’m away at an ALP Branch meeting for a couple of hours and it’s pick on me time.
Oh how brave of the oh so pures to recruit a soft ALP’er to their cause
Oh and Vera is quite correct about this blog putting you off the Greens for life – Fremantle has single-handedly done that for me
If you are not not prepared to stand by your party in good times AND bad times, then I would seriously question’s ones motive for supporting that party in the first place.
ShowsOn your union mates signed off on the deal. Poor negotiation!
Of course everyone knows the company were rogues as so found by the SC of NSW. The union blokes got done by the company.
So you oppose affirmative action litmus tests for judges, but then apply your own stupid litmus test to a P.M.
How do you know that Menzies wouldn’t now be a Republican? Fraser is a Republican, MORE THAN LIKELY the next Liberal Prime Minister will be a Republican (but it won’t be Turnbull).
739,
Fortunately for justices sake, you don’t get a vote in this matter
Besides SHowsOn, your mate stressed his role in negotiating the deal.
GP
if you’re against affirmative action, what do you propose should be done to ensure that there are more females involved in public life? I assume you think they should be there, but correct me if I’m wrong.
And how do you explain why there are still fewer women than men in Parliament, especially in the Liberal party ranks, despite – what? – over a hundred years of electoral equality?
Do you believe that if women aren’t equally represented because they are not of equal merit or lack of interest on their part?
What union mates? I’m not even currently in a union.
So why on earth are you blaming the unionists who were doing their best to get some compensation for the workers?
By your own admission, you should be blaming the company.
Menzies was British to the Bootstrap ShowsOn i doubt he’d want a Republic now at all.
It’s Jenni George
Showie,
The discussion was about effectiveness. By any measure those who negotiated that deal failed.
Workers will suffer as a result of the failure of the fund.
And so did Bernie Banton who led the campaign. Your point?
Perhaps you are suggesting the government should compulsorily acquire assets from the company that it can sell and put the proceeds in the compensation fund?
no ShowsOn.,
Combet and the ACTU were specifically responsible for negotiating the deal.
So you should blame James Hardie. And if you don’t blame James Hardie, you are just being a massive hypocrite.
ESJ 743,
Ok, so you voted for PJK once or twice?
The company should have been wound up them (During a boom) all claimants would now be paid in full.
And James Hardie is responsible for handing over money that they are now refusing to hand over.
And yet you won’t blame James Hardie. UTTER HYPOCRISY.
Oz
Epsiode numb will ave me time
are you suggesting she is/was a plant
Twice JulieM, 96 was a tragedy. I’ll be voting Greens in NSW too!
So run for parliament on the platform that the federal government should compulsorily acquire James Hardie.
No ShowsOn,
The company has no “responsibility” to hand over additional money under the terms of the ACTU deal.
I’m not suggesting anything, what the hell. I was just pointing out something I had noticed. If anything I was appreciating the tenacity of the lady.
Not sure why you’re so sensitive.
James Hardie PUTS THE MONEY IN THE TRUST! James Hardie IS THE SOURCE of the money!
Even by your standards this is weak as all hell.
ShowsOn,
The reality is the ACTU struck a very very bad deal which is now apparent.
It looked good for the cameras then, now not very good at all.
I don’t get it – if ESJ is a Liberal stooge then why does he vote Green? Or is this some lame Franke-esque joke?
ShowsOn,
The deal specifically exempts Hardies from putting more money in other than under the terms of the “deal”.
A bad bargain eh?
Hahahaha
dont me laugh you false damascene.
the only green vein in you is the jealousy of a SUCCESSFUL and WILDLY POPULAR
LABOR GOVERNMENT
He’s like those liberals who voted for Adele Carles –
He can’t stand the NSW Libs so he’d rather vote Green to get rid of Labor.
So you should be proposing a new deal that makes James Hardie pay more, but of course you actually don’t think James Hardie should pay a cent. You couldn’t care less about the Bernie Banton’s of the world.
He just likes criticising Labor politicians at all costs while defending anything Liberals do.
But of course the oh so pures are quite happy to accept a loiberal vote if it helps them win a seat.
Effective local representation in Leichhardt Frank C. Local fighting for Locals, LOL.
In NSW that will likely just produce a Labor / Green coalition.
ShowsOn,
I’d support overturning the deal but unfortunately the bad deal is probably watertight.
When are you starting your campaign to have James Hardie’s assets compulsorily acquired?
It doesn’t sound like you know anything about it.
Nah ShowsON,
I’ll probably vote for some far right group in the Upper House.
ESJ @ 765, what electorate/suburb are you in? Not all of the electorates have Greens on the ballot in the lower house Federally ….. for that matter, excepting the major parties, it is pretty hit and miss. I was in Werriwa when I voted in 2007 and we had the 3 main ones but also had someone running on FF, Fred Niles party (CDP?) and an independant ….. at least you have a choice it sounds like.
FF you might expect out in the SW suburbs but I was surprised to see the CDP out there.
Sorry JulieM I mean State election in NSW in 2011.
Go for it, at least you’ll be voting for something you believe in.
Oh crap, my mistake, you don’t actually believe anything.
Let her burn baby , NSW needs more anarchy and disruption before order is restored.
Oh and the Greens lost all credibility in WA for creating a bigger Gerrymander in the Upper House, which ensured that the Libs/Nationals got the Balance of Power as well.
Great work Oh So Purers.
A vote is a vote, what the hell does who someone voted for before have to do with it?
This Labor government got in on the back of 5% of those who voted Lib voting for them, don’t see you complaining. Such twisted logic on a blog about politics is disheartening.
But the difference was that the Liberals did NOT run a Candidate in Fremantle.
I am very keen to see Verity Farce go down in Balmain. That’ll be the night for Kristal with my new Green friends. Do they wash normally?
It’s a “difference” but it’s completely irrelevant. I don’t know why you’re still banging on about Fremantle. The fact is, the Liberals didn’t run a candidate so their 30% had to go somewhere.
a) You have zero evidence demonstrating the Libs simply swung to The Greens. In fact, William and Antony believe the opposite.
b) If the voters who had previously voted Liberal swung behind Labor you would not even be rubbishing Labor for getting in on the back of evil Liberal votes.
The primary figures say it all
Labor HELD it’s Primary VCote, and in fact had a small swing TO it.
Frank, “oh so pures” is edging its way towards my banned nicknames list.
I hope you understand this doesn’t mean anything. I don’t have the patience to explain it to you but maybe someone will.
But of course the Oh So Pure’s fail to mention that bit
AS I said on the Freo thread, I hope The Libs allow the export of Uranium to go through Fremantle
784,
ESJ, I knew that, just noting that I lived in Werriwa in 2007 so voted in the last NSW state election
Dont you worry about that Frank.
I see the Greens as being like a new DLP but only from the left. Our Green friends need to be nurtured and encouraged.
Well, I’ll now refer to them as the Vegetable Patch
798, ESJ I’ve sorted out tonight where you stand on politics and I can easily see why you made the comment earlier in the week that you think you’ve written some of my posts
……..
night, off to watch the Obi thing with the SC nominee on the Foxtel before I sleep
Why do you need to know how they wash? What sort of party is this that you’ve got planned?
Oh dyno I’d be seeing the NSW Government going down as a very satisfactory der untergang moment.
At such a time a little jocularity could be forgiven even the most earnest soul.
Amazed to see people still going on about the “injustice” of Fremantle.
It’s not the Liberal Party’s job to help Labor win seats.
It’s not the Greens’ problem if some Liberals vote for them.
ESJ we can but hope!
And certainly Verity is a particularly worthy candidate for political extinction.
Oh yeah dyno, I hope to hit the streets of Haberfield when the call to arms comes!
Well The Libs, all but endorsed their supporters to Vote Green by not standing a candidate, and because the Libs would’nt vote Labor in a pink fit, decided to vote Green to punish Labor.
Simple as That.
She is only 54 so will be around for a long time.
Obama will probably get to pick two more replacements as well which will really rankle the Republicans.
I see myself as a concerned voter who just feels the Greens time has come in the State seat. Its amazing how many people feel as I do!
I just hope the Greens pick the right candidate to finish the job!
But of course the Tossed Salad Party wouldn’t realised that by playing footsies with the Lbs will eventually end in tears.
Frank C,
Come now the rebuilding process has surely begun under Electric Eric?
Sounds quite encouraging..one two counts.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE54O20L20090525
Eric is a stop gap leader – warming the seat until our next Labor Premier is being groomed
Has Electric Eric still got a mo or have the makeover boys got to him?
The next one to go will be John Paul Stevens who is 89. He is the court’s main swing voter, so once Obama replaces him, the court will be back to 5 conservatives and 4 liberals. Currently it is basically 5 Conservatives, 1 Stevens who is slightly more conservative than liberal, and 3 Liberals.
Wrong again ShowsON, the courts main swing voter is Kennedy who aint going anywhere. Stevens and the other retiree are both Liberals. 3 appointments no change – just replenishment of the Liberal minority on the court.
He shaved the Mo off BEFORE the last election.
WRONG AGAIN ESJ! Stevens wrote the major opinion in Hamdin, which told Bush to take his Guantanamo policies and stuff them.
Read 815 again ShowsOn. You can see who is a liberal and who is a conservative by the way they voted in Bush v Gore.
I should charge you for my tuition.
WRONG AGAIN ESJ, Scalia will die before Stevens anyway.
I wouldn’t accept tuition from someone unaware of the critical flaws in libertarian theory.
No 818
Bush v Gore was a 7:2 decision.
Early election speculation in Canada again. The Liberals are suggesting a no-confidence could happen because of some obscure budget measure. Possible they’re just fighting for relevance.
G.P., are you willing to tutor ESJ?
No 822
I’m nowhere near qualified to be tutoring anyone on US law.
Prime Elephant of Australia, Your Peaness is being remarkably modest tonight.
Welcome back Paesano
Where have you been, the Tossed Salad Party have been all cock a hoop since Fremantle.
So we finally have our trio of Italians again. Even though two of them are of the communist variety.
Frank, I’ve gone off vegetables for a while.
Plus I sometimes forget my login jumble of symboles and keep getting logged out.
Plus work has kept me busy.
Plus some of the inanities posted here of late have the tendency to agitate me towards intemperate language.
And to top it all off, a pseudo ESJ has turned up again.
Mine or the others ?
John Paul Stevens the swing judge? Hah. You’re getting him confused with Anthony Kennedy, who will be on the court for a long while yet. Stevens is the most reliable liberal on the court.
No 829
And Scalia, the most reliable conservative.
No, you’re cool, Frank. But the irritating drone of the vegetable blenders does take its toll.
Yep GP, il Comitato degli Italiani al Estero is back in business.
And like all Italian gatherings, there’s always at least one Berlusconi, one Prodi and one Boccelli.
No 831
LOL Fulvio.
Candidate gets lamington on head:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/politics/2441983/Candidate-gets-lamington-on-head
This guy is taking the dessicated coconut metaphore to extremes …
Well it is politics. Poor Liberals are suffering a wedge…between the people that used to fund the party, and the party.
financial review
The “Institute of public affairs” is getting in my view a justified caning .
The real crisis of democracy
It seems to be the way of the right in Australia, the Liberal party is not liberal, the “Institute of public affairs” is all for no public affairs.
Fulvio, I thought with a surname like Sammut one would be of Maltese extraction.
Quite right, Muskiemp, but when 7/8th of your blood line is Italian, you speak Italian, and you are raised and educated in a community where you have little or no contact with that part of your ethnicity which is Maltese, it is hardly unusual that you identify primarily with your predominant ethnic pool.
Having said that, as an adult I have visited Malta, read about its rich history, researched my genealogy, and know that my Grandfather’s legacy to me, including my surname, is also one to be very proud of.
821, Oz – if Canada can swing together a viable government that goes the full 3 years these days, it would be a miracle.
[
The Court's decision
In brief, the breakdown of the decisions was:
Seven justices (the five Justice majority plus Breyer and Souter) agreed that there was an Equal Protection Clause violation in using different standards of counting in different counties.
Five justices agreed that December 12 (the date of the decision) was the deadline Florida had established for recounts (Kennedy, O'Connor, Rehnquist,[27] Scalia and Thomas in support; Breyer,[28] Ginsburg, Souter[29] and Stevens opposed). Justices Breyer and Souter wanted to remand the case back to the Florida Supreme Court to permit that court to establish uniform standards of what constituted a legal vote and then manually recount all ballots using those standards.
Three justices (Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas) agreed that the Florida Supreme Court had acted contrary to the intent of the Florida legislature. Justices Kennedy and O’Connor did not opine one way or the other on this issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v_gore#The_Court.27s_decision
]
Different layers of decisions happened on this one. I’m surprised not a one of you bailed out to Wikipedia last night.
A short answer question for those of you who voted twice for PJK AND did not vote for Kevin07. (question inspired by ESJ last night who voted twice for Keating but is not voting Labor at the NSW elections next go around)
Why/where/when/what/how did the ALP lose your vote in the last 13 years? And to whom did that vote go? Greens? Dems? Informal? etc.
Only those PBr’s who fit the group described should be answering this question please.
Cheers
NSW police now using Twitter
….
A cursory response from the “office” of Judi Moylan to yesterday’s email. If a further response materializes of any substance, I’ll let one and all know it …
fred from your @836
I think that the approach of the neoliberals whereby they were our “betters” has really backfired badly.
If anything the IPA and such ilk have served to energise otherwise apathetic individuals into political activism
The stain of the Howard interregnum will take generations to bleach out of our pysche
*applauds William*
I do find it rather amusing that you can’t debate an issue with a Green voter on merits and have to resort to name calling. It speaks volumes.
How about “Labor Hack” Bob? That gets a pretty good workout here. Come on Bob assist in eradicating that too.
Bob, have YOU ever used the term “Labor hack”?
I’m heading off from SA to Canberra today and will visit QT tomorrow. Could be worth running a sweep on how long Pyne will last.
Better still Bob, have you ever complained here about people using the term “Labor Hack”?
BK, sure Pyne will put on a good show for you
……. enjoy, I saw QT 5 times over the year we lived in Canberra ….. (as it turned out after the fact, the last time Nelson sat as OL was one of those 5 visits)
I can’t criticise “Labor hack” because I am a Labor hack. Voting Green as a protest doesn’t change that.
I’m off to QT today. Very excited at the prospect of seeing Pyne get turfed and Rudd do his angry father routine!
All the more reason to criticise such a negative term Bob. Either you don’t see it as such or you’re not as thinned skinned as some here, which goes against your support of banning another negative term directed at the Greens.
It depends on whether one sees a term as pejorative.
Last time I went to QT, Ciobo and the mob who sit on the end of the row acted like schoolkids. They constantly jumped around, laughed and joked with each other and were an embarrassment.
All I could think of was what do we pay you lot for.
Had a-pac on this a.m. for awhile and there was Ciobo again looking very arrogant and puffed up with his own importance. The younger Lib members are not very mature.
If Labor behaved like that it would be all over the MSM.
Gary B,
I think that part, if not all, of the reason that the wide range of ALP voters on the blog have been on edge in recent days/weeks is more subtle than just the Fremantle by-election.
Some of us are party voters no matter what (party first, issues and personalities secondary). Some of us are issues voters so can perhaps find our way to vote not ALP under the right circumstances. Some of us evaluate each candidate on their merits and would vote ALP (or not) depending on the individual who is running. (Correct me if you know otherwise as I’m not a SA voter but I think that Cornes running in the last election was a bad preselection move and cost votes in that electorate. This is just one example of what I mean here).
The quandry comes in that those who are members of the first group can not understand ALP members who fall into the second and third groups. People who vote issues or individuals above party are seen as less important, valuable or real as those who vote party first can’t easily co-exist with fellow ALP’rs who approach their vote in a different manner.
AIC said it once a number of weeks ago but since I’ve moved to Perth – the ALP is a broad church. Myself, personally, although I’m offput by some posts in recent days/weeks; in the end, will continue to vote ALP unless they’ve peeved me enough on specific issues. I noted to Glen last evening that he should ask me again (@ voting Greens #1 rather than #2) if Conroy’s net censorship bill ever sees the light of day. Atm, that would be my red flag
So YOU don’t see the term Labor Hack as being pejorative? Do you agree it is being used here in that way?
857 juliem. I understand that. I fit in the first group to be sure. In fact I see the second and third groups as swinging voters. How can they be interpreted in any other way. Sure, they maybe “part time” swinging voters, for want of a better term, but swinging voters none the less. If you are prepared to change you vote from one to another, what else can you be described as?
I agree it is being used in a pejorative way but I myself don’t find it pejorative if that makes sense.
But if William wants to get close to banning this term too, it’s up to him. But there’s nothing to stop up calling people like Glen and GP Liberal hacks. I’m sure some do. Or Liberal rusteds. Etc.
Juliem – like Psephos I think we all come to a decision after many years of wandering around testing what we believe in.
There are often stances Labor takes that I don’t quite agree with but on the whole they are the mob who actually try to do things for most of us.
It’s unfortunate that from Whitlam to now the damn economy goes belly up worldwide when Labor gets into office. Every time I see Blue Poles in Canberra I think of the outcry when Gough bought it – $2mill or whatever. It’s now worth about $30mill I think.
Every time I look at my daughter’s achievements I see a free education courtesy of Gough.
I won’t ever thank Howard and Costello for splashing cash around in the past ‘rich’ years.
859, described as you have presented it, I will let you classify me as a swinging voter then. However, I don’t “self-identify” as a swinging voter since in my mind that term means “sometimes votes for the other main party”. Perhaps that is a mindset born of living for 43 years with a system of voting where there are only really 2 options
(next to impossible the way things are set up in the US to have a viable 3rd party option). I don’t vote Lib and never will 
Cheers
Says the person who a couple of threads or back said ” suck it up Princess” after every 3rd comment to amigo GG.
We Labor hacks are proud of our hackhood.
Vera – have just read your 604 and absolutely cracked up – good one.
BH sometimes I think I’d be better off dead
we missed out on Kev’s stimulus.
I have no difficulty at all with swinging voters. Good on them. It’s the people who profess to be solidly left and then say I’m going to vote Green 1 and Liberal 2 or Liberal 1, that I don’t understand. If a “committed lefty” is committed, the last thing you do surely is put “the right” into power. Sure, try and put the Greens in power, I can understand that but “the right”?
Vera, without going into detail obviously, why did you miss out? I thought I would miss out and was told I would but got it.
What’s a committed lefty to do in NSW, for example? Where the Labor Party has embraced all the ideals of neo-liberalism including privatisation, economic rationalisation, sacking thousands of public servants and cutting public services.
It’s difficult to see how things could be worse under the Liberals, and in fact, based on their recent policies regarding public transport and electoral reform, things could be better. So a “lefty” may have more to gain by voting Liberal in the short term on policy terms and even more to gain in the medium-long term by showing Labor that they need to get up to scratch.
Yes, GB, the old maxim “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” is one that makes very strange bedfellows
….. fortunately, there aren’t too many of the group you mention. One state electorate in WA doesn’t set an example for the whole country. I would argue it is an exception, normally those sorts of voters don’t amount to much 
Vera and GB,
We got all of every stimpac last year and this excepting one lot of $900 at the end. My 07/08 tax slip showed I was off by $9 from being able to receive it. The low income tax offset was $9 more than what I’d paid in taxes from pt work last year.
It might be that the voter remains consistent with how they vote on issues of importance to them, but the party they vote for moves too far from their original position. Think of the recent policy drought in the Liberal party that has seen the Wets all but disappear. It this case it is a swinging party, not a swinging voter.
Peter Hartcher continues to turn the screws on Turnbull, I would suggest for his mate Costello.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/global-warming/turnbull-buys-time-as-climate-juggernaut-looms-20090526-bm8t.html
I can’t complain Vera – one of the lucky ones to get the December pressie and use it we did – to help out locally. Didn’t feel so guilty about getting it then.
But I wouldn’t be dead for quids – we still have to read Abbott’s & Howard’s books. Wonder whether they will contradict each other. Wonder if Howard will be brave enough to mention Peter Costello. Of course, I won’t buy them – will get them from the Library instead.
Gary. I’m not too clear on why we missed out, hubby away at the moment and he’s the one who rang our tax agent and they said it was something to do with what he got back in his last tax return. He didn’t do any work last tax year (he’s on a navy pension he got after 20 yrs service) not very much about $600 per foughtnight. He was able to claim for me as a dependant so I don’t know if he didn’t pay enough tax or the claim for me was taken into account? I’ll ask him to explain it to me when he rings tonight.
Juliem just read your post, that could be the reason we missed out then, thanks for the info
In NSW you have optional preferential. Use the option. Vote Green.
I once said that here in Victoria in the early nineties. Not again.
The NSW Gov is getting better. I have faith in Rees.
Oz, whatever you and the Greens think of the NSW Gov, it can’t be worse than having David Clarke and his extremists running the show.
People may have issues with the NSW Gov, but surely not to the level that they would have with the scary religious right of the NSW Libs – the scariest Libs in Australia. I wonder which faction GP is in.
My educated guess is the mouseketeers
PhilOS – I like Rees too. He is fresh and seems to be sincere in what he is trying to do.
The NSW Libs are scary beasts – David Clarke particularly with his very hardline Christian views. It’s not something we need.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25545805-601,00.html
Mmm, what a great way to endear yourself to the voting public… well done Turnip.
I honestly wouldn’t care less if Malcolm had a billion dollars. I don’t imagine the Tele/Sun will see it so kindly though.
Yes Bob and the way in which he made. The clever lawyer speak and the merchant banker.
One of the differences between the Govt. and the Opposition is the number of lawyers who sit on the Opposition benches. Their spin is pure lawyer drivel. After more than 40 years working with them I’m amazed that I can still be upset by some of it.
Yes Bob I liked this quote from Turnbull in “defence” of his reported wealth:
“Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull says BRW magazine has plucked figures that put his wealth at $178 million “out of the air”.
The magazine says Mr Turnbull is among the 200 richest people in Australia.
But Mr Turnbull says the magazine has “no idea” what the worth is of most of the people on the list.
“It is a speculative figure. It is flattering, but there are many people in the Parliament who have done well in their business lives,” he said.”
For once I think Turnbull is telling the truth. Notice he doesn’t say anywhere he has less than $178 million. Given modern tax minimisation practices used to hide wealth, the apparrent assetts of many people are like icebergs – only 10% of the Swiss Bank account is visible to the tax man. Who knows how much Turnbull really has stashed away? Maybe I’m too cynical. Perhaps he only told his clients how to do such things and has not hidden any of his own wealth or income?
Of course, if this figure is too low, the simple solution is for someone to ask him a question in parliament what is his true worth, and for him to declare the complete truth. Then again, shoudln’t we be able to tell just be checking his pecuniary interest decaration? Surely, he has honestly and fully disclosed on that?
Source for my Turnbull quote was ABC:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/27/2581981.htm
If someone asked Turnbull what his worth was in Parliament I would hope he would tell them that his personal affairs are just that.
So do I. It would only make Turnbull look like even more of a toff to the public… if that’s even possible.
As the person who used the phrase “Labor hack” and received several complaints, I didn’t use it as a compliment but it’s also not too derogatory. I used it for a die-hard Labor follower. And as Adam says, it can be taken as a compliment. Although I’ve stopped using it as it was not universally well-received.
And I think I used it to describe bob1234 more frequently than anyone.
There was a report in the MSM just after Rudd guaranteed the Banks last year that Turnbull had pulled some of his money out of investment banks in OZ 2 days or so before and had deposited some $70mill (I think) in a Hong Kong investment bank.
Not long after the HK market/banking sector fell heavily. Haven’t heard anything since.
Showed just how much he thought of investing in Oz.
The whole point of declarations of pecuniary interests is to avoid the potential for conflicts of interest. Once you take a public office it is a legitimate question. It is NOT just a private matter.
Diogenes, there’s a post in the SA Newspoll thread for you
I’m proud to call myself a “Labor Hack”.
I noticed Turnball or one of his shadow ministers decided to have a shot at Terese Rein’s wealth – no surprise!
BH 890
It also shows how valuable getting access to reserve bank and treasury briefings can be for someone with substantial cash. No conflict of interest of course….
Dio, if anyone such as Bob sees that as a compliment why stop? However, as you have so rightly pointed out, some people are offended by it and you have rightly, IMHO, stopped calling them that. Fair enough.
A silly question: how do you use the quote feature and the emoticons on this board?
Forgive me, I’m a complete computer/IT illiterate.
Gary
It was often used in a generic sense so it’s better avoided now.
I don’t have any difficulty with Turnbull being very wealthy but when you are in a position of power and defending a situation whereby the wealthy are being supported by the government at the expense of those less wealthy it really is not a good look.
Exactly Socrates – absolutely smacked of that. / What I found funny at the time was that the HK stuff dropped heaps more than Oz. I thought a so-called experienced financial whiz would have been more careful. But then Costello wrote some time ago that Turnbull didn’t really have a clue – just heaps of rRinman stuff as BB would say.
The problem for Turnball is how on earth can he have empathy with ordinary working class people? It doesn’t help the Liberals when they are defending the rights of well off people to keep grabbing generous welfare benefits.
Square brackets each side.
I really couldn’t care less if Turnbull is a millionair, BUT it would be interesting to see if The Poison Dwarf will have a rightup on Turnbulls millionssss like he did Therese Rein. Also I still angry that the wife whom isn’t in politics had to sell off her company in Australia, while Turnbull is still free to have all his companies.
Kim Beasley was on Sky saying that unless we have a DD there will never be a ETS.
I think the Liberals will vote for it in December specifically to STOP the chance of their being a D.D.
I also expect some Liberals to cross the floor and vote against it, even once their party leadership supports it.
Bloody good point
But the reality is labor has principles,liberals worry about others principles
Lets see the libs tantrum in the house today
Yea dave ….. that is right. now what I need to know is how to make emoticons work
…….. I can only get the main few ones to work and then not always – I can do
and that is about it ….. all of the other ones I can’t seem to make register on PB. I’ve tried till I am blue in the face to make the really angry red face appear and also the one where the tongue sticks out …. thanks folks
Albo out of QT today and rest of this week. Tanner answering questions on his behalf. The opposition greeted that news with hoots and cat calls
Blog smileys http://sarahcherim.com/info/#smileys
??
You mean emoticons like this
:green:
If I might take the liberty to rephrase:
Labor is interested in principles, Liberals only in the interest on their principal.
more smilies; http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies
Oooops
911, Gus if that was to be a sick face, it didn’t come through on my screen, it only was the code with the colons bracketing the word ‘green’ …. I would be happy to have my emoticon vocabulary expanded by any degree the more the merrier
dave, trying one ….. will see if it posts or not ….
dave, it posted BUT I requested the ‘mrgreen’ one which is the big grin in the green face and it gave me a monkey.
at least it posted a picture though …..
“:mrgreen:”
must be the crickey setup. What do they have against greens?
that will do me for a test at the moment
the word press site seems to make them work … maybe the trick is to use the colon brackets and not the figure or in otherwords according to that website, the “full text” as opposed to “text”
thanks Musrum
Hockey warned
Not near TV at the moment, has Swanny called Hockey ‘Sloppy-joe’ today
I reckon two more libs today will be booted, if they are consistent that is.
Not to my knowledge Vera. I don’t think so …. he did mention a “sloppy attitude to figures” or words to that effect but not the quote you are wondering about ….. at this point, performance is about the same as yesterday BUT no one booted yet; about 4 are warned but no one booted atm
Tuckey gorn,
1 down 1 to go
I wonder who is next for the walk of shame
Is Pyne’s suspension literally 24 hours, meaning that he can’t be enter the chamber till part-way through QT? We haven’t heard a peep from him yet.
Jenkins lets loose a heavy sigh, tells the PM to resume his seat and then takes a point of order from Tuckey. After giving it 4 seconds or so to have a cursory listen, he boots Tuckey for an hour
Malcolm can put this into his pipe and smoke it
yeah, Triton, 24 hours. don’t know if he will come in half way or just stay out. I’m listening on the computer window from parliaments website so just getting the upclose pic of the speaker, not wide ranging views of the chambers. Someone who is watching on TV will have to let us know …..
leave not granted to Hockey to table some documents
Gusface, would that walk of shame be for ‘the Weakest link’
actually i think it is for “the biggest loser”
( and no thats not a dig at humungous hockey)
pyne has his lips stitched shut!
or at least thats how he looks
Vera,
Tanner just mentioning now the “Sloppy” reference but did it peripherally enough to get away with it and said “treasurer prevented from using this term yesterday and what a shame” and continued on with his comments ……. if you get QT on replay later, look for this about 35 to 40 minutes in
Yes, Gary Bruce at 878, as a “rusted on” Labor bloke I actually felt some sympathy for a change of government in Victoria in 1992. That’s as far as it went (I didn’t inhale), and still – as always – voted Labor. And we had the Kennett years.
Don’t imagine that that right wing conservative will be better than right wing Labor, because for the average person it won’t. I now live in NSW – and in trepidation at the thought of a conservative state government in 2010.
Tanner very impressive – hockey looks a goose
The rabble still haven’t worked out their ETS response. There are at least four different views here. Absolutely pathetic.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/global-warming/government-to-press-on-with-troubled-ets-20090527-bn2y.html
Cheers julie
Gusface the biggest loser is much more appropriate
Tanner referring to some papers printed in February (talking to Hockey) and says “if you were a decent Shadow Treasurer” you would know about these and says “Hockey should stop doing breakfast shows and take care of his portfolio”
Ah, now he’s piped up.
Pyne’s back!
If Hockey is a goose, he certainly is the stuffed Christmas goose
Did Pyne just call the speaker “Mr Squiggle”??
Triton, how long has he been back in? He’s already been asked to “withdraw”
Jenkins is giving Pyne a real dressing down.
I think he was refering to Rudd
Turnbull launches a censure motion
YAWN
Did anyone else see the censure motion coming sometime back? How obvious can you get?
And now Turnbull is raising a motion of censure – I reckon Hockey will get the biggest spray in the government responses
#942 juliem
Well, It looks as though he’s safe for the day now that Turnbull has cut off QT.
He needs positive spin for their MSM cheersquad
He also needs a clip for the nightly news to show giving the impression that the Libs have the upper hand in QT
Yohoho is getting a good show today
OT ……
US might go to a national sales tax …..
When the Libs are getting belted in QT, you can be sure Malcopops will try the censure motion option.
Tanner did Fat Joe like the proverbial dinner LOL
Why don’t labor return with a censure motion of it