The latest Roy Morgan survey of 1804 respondents has Labor’s two-party lead unchanged at 58-42, with their primary vote down 0.5 per cent to 49 per cent and the Coalition’s down 1.5 per cent to 36 per cent. The Greens are up a point to 9 per cent. Much else to report:
• On Monday, Galaxy published a survey of 1004 respondents showing federal Labor with a two-party lead of 55-45. The primary vote figures of 43 per cent for Labor and 40 per cent for the Coalition are similar to those from the 2007 election, suggesting the two-party result flatters Labor a little. Furthermore, 17 per cent nominate themselves less likely to vote Labor if an early election is called against 12 per cent more likely. Kevin Rudd was rated “arrogant” by 31 per cent against 47 per cent for Malcolm Turnbull, while their respective ratings for being “out of touch with ordinary Australians” were 29 per cent and 48 per cent. However, Rudd performed worse than Turnbull on the innovative measure of “someone who can turn nasty if he doesn’t get his own way”, scoring 43 per cent to Turnbull’s 31 per cent. Peter Brent at Mumble has tables.
• Tasmanian Electrical Trades Union secretary Kevin Harkins apparently plans to proceed with his bid for Senate preselection, despite having been told by Kevin Rudd his chances were “Buckley’s and none”. Harkins was endorsed as candidate for Franklin ahead of the 2007 election, but was compelled to step aside four months beforehand after his colourful activities as a union leader emerged as a political liability. It was reported at the time that the pill had been sugared with offers of “an elevated union position, increased salary and a future Senate seat”. Harkins is the favoured candidate of the Left faction for one of the two safe Senate seats, with incumbent Kerry O’Brien set to be dropped to loseable third. The Hobart Mercury reports that the Left’s position is now likely to go to Australian Manufacturing Workers Union secretary Anne Urquhart, who is seen as acceptable to the Right. The Right’s position at the top of the ticket will remain with the low-profile Helen Polley.
• Michael Owen of The Australian reports on tension in the South Australian Liberal camp over Senate preselection, with Right faction colossus Nick Minchin “warning off” moderate state president Sean Edwards. Minchin says Edwards had undertaken not to seek preselection when he ran for the presidency in 2007 so he could focus on next year’s state election. A “party source” says the Right has secured the postponement of preselection until April next year so a newly elected state council can provide them with a more favourable result, potentially leaving the party unprepared for an early election. The Right’s chief concern is to secure a seat for David Fawcett, defeated in Wakefield at the 2007 election, at Edwards’ expense. Alan Ferguson, who is associated with the Right faction and the conservative Lyons Forum, is “expected to retire” rather than seek another term.
• After holding the seat since Malcolm Fraser’s departure after his 1983 election defeat, David Hawker has announced he will retire as member for Wannon at the next election. Andrew Landeryou at VexNews has a comprehensive form guide of potential preselection aspirants, including “complicated Costello loyalist” Georgie Crozier; Victorian Farmers Federation president Simon Ramsay, said to be facing a losing battle against former Howard government adviser Rod Nockles in his bid for the less appealing prospect of Corangamite; Institute of Public Affairs agriculture policy expert Louise Staley, who challenged Kevin Andrews for preselection in Menzies ahead of the 2001 election; former police sergeant and anti-corruption crusader Simon Illingworth; “farmer, vet and former local councillor” Katrina Rainsford; and the similarly credentialled Matt Makin.
• Left faction Victorian state MP Carlo Carli has announced he will not re-contest Brunswick at the next election, perhaps boosting the Greens’ vague chances of snaring the seat. Andrew Landeryou at VexNews once again offers a goldmine of detail on preselection contenders, describing the seat as an “area of conflict” between the competing Left faction camps associated with federal Bruce MP Alan Griffin and Senator Kim Carr. Griffin faction aspirants include former state secretary Eric Locke and Moreland councillor Alice Pryor, while the only identified contender from the Carr camp is 23-year-old Enver Erdogan, a staffer to House of Representatives Speaker Harry Jenkins. Apparently straddling the two camps is Danny Michel, an adviser to Public Transport Minister Lynne Kosky. Moreland’s Right faction mayor Lambros Tapinos is also named as a “wild card”.
• Yet more from the House of Landeryou: preselection challenges apparently loom against two senior Victorian state Liberals, Shadow Police Minister Andrew McIntosh in Kew and Shadow Health Minister Helen Shardey in Caulfield. The story in Kew goes that a Josh Frydenberg federal preselection victory in Kooyong would unleash “irresistible pressure” for McIntosh to be dumped in favour of “Costello loyalist” Kelly O’Dwyer. In Caulfield, “local power-broker” Frank Greenstein proposes that Shardey make way for David Southwick, who previously contested the federal seat of Melbourne Ports in 2004 and was narrowly pipped by short-lived Labor member Evan Thornley for an upper house seat in Southern Metropolitan in 2006. Ted Baillieu is apparently very keen that none of this transpire, as both McIntosh and Shardey are loyal to him.
• The Australian reports the June 30 deadline for Victorian Liberal federal preselection nominations has ratcheted up speculation about Peter Costello’s future plans, with the overwhelming expectation he will seek another term in Higgins. Kevin Andrews is expected to face a challenge in Menzies, but is “believed to have the numbers”.
• UMR Research has published one of its occasional polls on attitudes to republicanism, showing little change since November. Support is up one point to 51 per cent, opposition is up two to 30 per cent. Support for direct election of the president is up a point to 81 per cent, with opposition stable on 12 per cent. Fifty-three per cent support a referendum during the next term of parliament.
1,451 Comments
Typical pro-Labor Morgan poll. I don’t think anyone takes them seriously anymore.
From the other thread:
So it’s ok for the Tofus to Hate the Laborites, but we Laborites have to bite our tongues.
Not on your nelly I will – two can play at that game.
Greens to retain Fremantle at the next state election.
What!? NSW Labor is the most hated party / government in the country, yet the Libs can’t even pull a double digit lead?
O’Farrell should be sacked.
William, any idea about this Nielsen poll mentioned in this article?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/05/2590885.htm
No 4
Still a crushing victory for the Libs Showy.
Wasn’t that the one a short while ago that did Preferred Premier of the 2PP is for some reason.
NSW poll now mentioned in NSW thread (by me).
No 5,
Typically, in that article, Sartor thinks his shit doesn’t smell.
As bad as the NSW Government is, I can’t bring myself to vote Liberal in 2011, I’ll probably vote Green(not that it matters in blue ribbon Liberal territory on Sydney’s North Shore).
In your dreams
If Labor pre-select appropropriately then Adele’s futire isn’t as assured as you contend. And as for the Fremantle ALP Branch, you whinge when Labor preselect a local Mayor, and you still would’ve whinged if Party Office preselected someone NOT living in the electorate.
They wouldn’t be happy in anyone exexpt for a local union hack, who happens to be a Branch Member.
Even with optional preferential voting?
It would be 60/40 now if John Brogden was leader. Now would’ve been his time.
Sartor’s a dropkick. He might think he’s some potential messiah but next to no one in caucus likes him and he’d be less popular than Rees.
Keneally or Tebbut should be next up.
Blah blah blah.
Perhaps, but Rees is catching up, and if O’Farrell is still leader in 2011 & the religious right of the Liberals cause trouble, you can’t completely write Labor off.
No 13
Ugh. Tebbutt is useless. Keneally is mildly competent but she’s invisible.
Excellent to see something new in the world of pshephing:
‘Someone who turns nasty when he doesn’t get his own way.’ Rudd handily outpoints Turnbull on the measure.
Punters have got a reasonable fix on Rudd on this issue. Turnbull is giving them problems on this issue. There could be several reasons:
(1) Turnbull is so frightened of the divisions of his party that he does not try to get his own way very often. So if he doesn’t try to get his own way, how would punters know what is really like when truly disappointed?
(2) The economy keeps shying away from the recession, so Turnbull doesn’t get his own way there but when tried to get nasty about that in Parliament he wasn’t very good at it.
(3) The punters have forgotten the story about what Turnbull did when thwarted in a certain business arrangement of some note.
(4) The punters don’t really spend much time thinking about Turnbull because they don’t want to waste their time.
Hit another raw nerve haven’t I.
Turnbull’s problem embodies the problem with consensus leading full stop. Conviction rules. Stand for something, make enemies (and friends), and move the country forward.
Another required ingredient would be half of the front Labor bench retiring at the election.
GP
Sounds good, but if Turbull put his strongly held global warming convictions on the table in Shadow Cabinet today, by tonight he would be gone.
The problem is Turnbull is a liberal leader, but he still has Howard’s predominantly conservative party behind him. If Turnbull could get more young urban candidates pre-selected, it would make it a heap easier for him to move to the political centre.
Isn’t there something ironic about Ricky Ponting wearing a VB hat at a press conference while chastising Symonds for “an alcohol related incident”?
No 21
Good. Then we can get thrashed at the next election and the imbeciles would be gone.
Exactly, he is a centrist politician trying to lead a predominantly conservative party.
I think Turnbull and Rudd are extremely close ideologically, but Turnbull is leading a party that disagrees with his views, while Rudd is leading a party that agrees with his.
GP
*hearty grin*
It seems clear to me that the Coalition will never get back in while they refuse to do something serious about global warming. The Nationals have pretty well nailed their colours to the mast, as in over their dead bodies.
Is it time for the Coalition to split up in this Opposition?
Silvio and Rupert seem to have really fallen out. Silvio takes umbrage at what I would think was a very reasonable comment.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/076c4b84-50f5-11de-8922-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss&nclick_check=1
GP is correct. The Liberals need a leader who is prepared to crash or crash through. (sorry GP if I am mangling your comment).
Turnbull is probably not capable, but he may be when he faces political oblivion. (Soon).
I don’t give a toss about the Nats (or the Greens) for politics to serve our country we need a strong Liberal party, putting forward alternative policies.
Sadly I don’t think it will happen. Ergas tax review – pulped. Anderson review – pulped.
Diogenese
I don’t think Tiberius felt the need to cover up anything. On the contrary, he felt a somewhat strong need to uncover everything.
When last I saw something on the topic, which was two or three weeks ago, Berlusconi’s popularity rating was higher than that of Rudd. The Italian Opposition is hardly something to die for.
You’ve never hit one so why would you have done so now?
Nope, you didn’t mangle. It’s my position. Howard was like this, despite all the contentions that he destroyed the party. You need to be strong and have convictions or voters can see right through you. Australians have a remarkably sensitive bullshit meter.
ruawake
I agree that we all need a cohesive, thoughtful Opposition that develops strong critiques of Government policy and develops credible alternative policies. This is precisely what we do not have at the moment.
It is hard to see the Coalition fixing itself when it has such a substantial rump of fixated duds within the ranks.
I DO hope the Libs pick David Southwick for Caulfield. The man is a first-class nong, his family is widely disliked in the Jewish community, and he might just hand the seat to Labor if Labor can find a good Jewish candidate.
What relation is Louise Staley to Tony Staley?
So that’s a big tick for Rudd is it?
After all, their Newspoll 2PP peaked at 63, and is currently at 55. Barnett’s peaked at 55.
Not to mention Rudd is the most popular PM in history only second to Hawke.
ITs seems I ALWAYS hit a raw nerve with the Tofu Brigade when I DARE say something contrary to their sacred Adele Carles and other Green “Personalities”. For some reason they have to resort to personal attacks when such comments are made by ALP Supporters, and I don’t see the same amount of vitriol wwhen Glen and GP make similar comments.
Anyone seen the new Star Trek film?
I can’t give you an unbiased answer.
SBS news are a joke, they had Swanny talking with a caption saying WAYNE SWAN, OPPOSITION LEADER.
Wishful thinking on their behalf? Wonder if they have started call Turnbull PM
They also are still beating up the ‘Rudd getting gift of ute” story and even said the opposition are going to keep up the pressure to get another ministerial scalp! lol, so according to them Rudd will be forced to resign any day now.
This is off the subject but I just wanted to answer a question that Frank Calabrese asked in a blog during the fremantle by-election . No mate my brother and I are not related to Sam Wainwright . Oh and by the way I object to the term Failed yes I didn’t win but I came a good second a long way ahead of the rest of the pack and lets not forget I was up against the popular late Mayors wife Sandra Gregorini and we were fighting for her husband seat on council in reality she was always going to be a shoe in.
I’d be careful about Jewish Candidates winning it for Labor, as the Tofu Brigade got their noses out of joint cos I dared mention that Peter Tagliaferri had the Italian Vote more or less tied up.
See what happens when SBS gets it’s funding cut by Conroy – they go Feral.
Is it Caulfield or Balaclava? I used to live around the corner from the Inkerman Hotel. I agree with Adam. The Jewish vote is all important.
Are the shops still closed on Saturday?.
Our politics really are dull, dull, dull…
The Hesbollah Party in Lebanon say they are trying to be reasonable.
So their policy is not to ban whisky, which we all know is a sin, but the policy is to ban importing it from Israel; this avoids the wedge and does not offend the Lebanese Christian vote.
Meanwhile, a group of Shi-ites who compete electorally with Hesbollah have had 38 cars burned in the run-up to the elections and had their party office molotov cocktailed.
What’s wrong with tofu?
Why bother accusing others of personal attacks when you engage in them yourself?
Oh, you don’t classify yours as personal attacks. Silly me.
Boer it is funny that you mention that since bleeding hearts are usually up in arms when the lunacy of some lebanese citizens in Australia is questioned.
Don’t tell me you are a Vegan ?
Oh well, I’ll have to refer to them as the Mung Bean Collective
Therefore it’s a yes :0
Psephos
*hearty chuckle*
Frank and some Green bludgers have been conducting a flame war in the previous thread and Frank’s inspirations including branding them ‘tofu munchers’ or some such thing.
I’m not a vegetarian, but you don’t have to be to eat tofu. It’s a staple of Asian cooking.
Actually, the flame war managed to cross over into this thread as well.
I refer to the ENTIRE Group as Tofu Brigade/Mung Bean Collective – Not one individual on the group. Your lot instead attack individual personalities.
BIG Difference.
Which of course isn’t a personal attack, but saying William Bowe and Antony Green’s opinions are more recognised and respected than his is a personal attack.
The best sense I can make of the Quentin Dempster article is that the 53-47 is the last Newspoll, and the “Barry O’Farrell significantly ahead of Nathan Rees as preferred premier” bit is a mistaken reference to the Taverner poll. I can’t find any record of an ACNielsen poll.
Yes of course there is Frank. LOL.
Why Tofu Brigade is no less an insult to brand Green Supoorters as the ALP Being called Latte Socialistts etc by others- we don’t take it to heart, unlike the moral supior Greens.
Just as well Brendan Nelson didn’t eat that gourmet catfood he was waving around in Parliament last year. It’s causing neurological diseases in cats. I think I’ll stick to tofu!
Of course it is as it is basically saying My opinion is worth diddly squat and doesn’t count.
But of course the Tofu Brigade rather attack the person, rather than the issue.
Whoops, Barley Charley!
I was trying to sensitise Psephos to ‘tofu’ as a politically-loaded term within the Bludger Realm. My aim was definitely not to take part in the culinary wars appertaining to discussions about possibilities and probabilities of possible future occupants of a certain sandgroper seat.
Boerwar, never get between Frank and a tofu muncher’s throat!
Unless you use this standard when attacking Glen & GP and others then it will be a legitimate comment, but if you don’t it proves once and for all that you are using it as a PERSONAL attack.
I would probably not be on my own in suggesting that this “flame war” is long past being boring and is an insult to the intelligence of readers of this blog and I would not be disappointed if William puts a stop to it forthwith.
Then heading of this blog has a wealth of subjects for people to comment on and if they wish to demonstrate their ability to intelligently discuss the multitude of current issues available then it would be much more preferable to this “mush” that has been served up for al least two days now.
You know who you are! Desist, please!
Frank
You have to think of the Tofus as new parents, wow look our party can say goo gaa, it can almost walk – oops it fell over but it is so clever.
If you say sorry your new party has one leg – that is why it falls over, or it can only say goo gaa – because it has a cleft palate, how else could a new parent respond.
Ruawake, are you one of the Chasers?
Umm, I will ALWAYS respond in kind to those of moral supiority who INSIST their opinion is the only one which counts.
And THEY Know who they are as well.
It takes TWO to tango.
Because we were having a psephological debate over the chances of the Greens retaining the seat. If WB/AG say Labor will retain a seat and GP says otherwise then i’ll say that to him. Heck, I tell him all the time that Newspoll shows the people approve of Labor and GP argues the point. Don’t somehow feel special, it doesn’t just go to you Frankie dearest.
I’m a passionately carnivorous ex-Democrats usually-Greens voter who voted Labor last time (for Allanah MacTiernan), and I agree with this post. The whole thing’s geting kind of boring.
FS
LOL. A couple of very funny posts.
According to an article in The Age from 2000, Louise is “no relation to former Liberal Party federal president Tony Staley”.
Why, cos it’s socially acceptable to attack ALP posters for pointing out the bleeding obvious about the Tofu Munchers ?
OK, so let’s talk about Louise then.
(1) Does she drink Latte?
(2) Does she sip Chardonney?
(3) Does she eat t*fu?
lol funny
For three days solid? Give me and others a break!
No, why should I NOT have the right to defend the ALP to the best of my abilites – are you one of those who consider the Tofu Munchers a Sacred Speices put on a pedastal and not to be attacked at ANY cost ?
I love it how Frank puts words in to everyone’s mouths.
Kev has been reading PB again – his latest tweet -
Well, gotta go and buy some stuff for dindins… uh… no…. Well, gotta go and buy some some stuff to drink at dindins… uh… no…
Think I’ll go walk the dog.
Say’s the chiefTofu Muncher. – it wasn’t the ACTUAL words but the insinuation BEHIND your statement.
LOL at ABC commentators tip-toeing around the fact that no-one likes Terry Wallace, because he is a *thoroughly unlikeable man.*
I agree entirely with Frank.
The Green supporters have been acting as if they are on high dose steroids since a meaningless bi-election went their way.
But its more fun than banging on about a carbon neutral economy – or everyone riding pushies to work.
Frank, I’m with you, can’t stand a whiff of those greentossersalads
Just someone who sat through more than 2,800 posts on the previous thread and so far 75 on this one who is totally sick of this inane, juvenile spat over a by-election of no importance on the other side of the country.
I suddenly find I have more important things to do with my life than this rubbish.
Exactly, it would force the Tofu Brigade to actually engage their brains and THINK, rather than repeat slogans used in Election Campaigns
Why only count Frank’s posts? You suggest he was talking to himself?
It’d be pretty sad if you didn’t.
I think William should terminate this exchange of insults, and ban dietary pejoratives of all kinds.
Excuse me, I’ve hardly posted in the last 24 hous since having a molar extracted and spending most of yesterday afternoon/last night in bed.
If it is of no importance, then why are the Tofu Brigade treating it like a prized sacred animal then ?
Yeah, especially when Bob1234, Rebecca and Oz can quite openly attack the ALP without punishment, yet if I or others DARE question what they p;ost we are branded the evil ones.
I’ll say this much: Frank has used the word “tofu” in 34 comments in four days, which is more than enough for me to invoke the banned nicknames ordinance under section whatever of comment moderation guidelines.
Well done William.
Will you apply the same ban to our Green friends if they use similar nicknames ?
bob1234
What is your opinion on employee share schemes?
34 times in four days? Of course.
brown-noser!
I wonder if the Age will have the intestinal fortitude to publish the response by the ABS to the nonsense published by them attributed to Gerard Minack.
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/023fd221b674319aca2575cc0001b775!OpenDocument
Minack should respond too. Its in tonight Eureka Report as well
I await William’s response to those who refer to ALP supporters as Hacks, Latte Socialists, Communists etc with great interest.
Bilbo, please dont ban my beloved Tofu
Can’t we handle it OK on our own?
No, as it would be totally hypocritical for William to Ban the T word to describe our Green friends, but the others are fair game.
http://bob-brown.greensmps.org.au/taxonomy/term/4/all
Does this mean Bob or Scott are not what they appear?
I’m waiting for Glen to turn up and see what he has to say about his new leader Swanny lol (according to SBS)
Vallentine
Chamarette
Margetts
Nettle
Milne
Siewert
Hanson-Young
v
Brown
Ludlam
Seven to two is the correct ratio.
Well Scott is very much a SNAG…
Ok, OK, I am a Tofu Loving Hack.
Kudos to you Adam, a lot of people forget about Jo V.
Obscure Senators quiz: who remembers Karin Sowada, Robert Wood, Pat Field, Geoff Buckland, Len Harris, Cleaver Bunton, Tom Wheelwright, Irina Dunn?
I’m guessing that 6/7 thing got written before the 2007 election (Ludlam and Hanson-Young being new then)?
BTW Frank, Bob Brown is not a vegetarian.
Well I think it is the constant repetition of a term that drags the discussion down. So just mix up our epithets, variety is the spice of life!
No, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no, no.
You sir are a Hackle !
{dont ya luv VPN}
I only remember Len Harris, wasn’t he One Nation Party, Queensland?
The Stateline story on the S.A. budget was just bizarre. It had footage of chips being friend, intercut with shots of Foley and Rann saying the budget was about jobs.
I think ABC SA is going through a Louis Bunuel phase.
Well he should be expelled from the Party Forthwith – issn’t it a pre-requisite to be one ?
The Green websites are a dogs breakfast. They went for a spiffy “content management system” unfortunately they obviously do not have the resources to update this cms.
Other websites let outdated pages fade from public view, the Greens cms keeps outdated pages live for our enjoyment.
Hence my point about William applying the same standards.
They must have lost their “Work for The Dole kid-)
and their embarrasment
Frank, try “bean curd”.
Gus, how your Mum? Hope all is A’OK
BTW: as a Tofu lover. There is NO green Tofu. There are white, yellow, red, brown, stinking black (taiwanese version).
Latest on Gordon Brown’s reshuffle:
Alistar Darling stays as Chancellor/Treasurer
David Miliband retains Foreign Secretary position
Alan Johnson moves to the Home Office
Brown will promote a few women to key jobs.
Other senior ministers(Johnson, Miliband) publicly supporting Brown, for now!
The ABC is taking the Chaser off air for the next 2 weeks, due to this week’s controversy. I guess if the show returns to the airwaves, it’ll be heavily censored by management. A shame that the conservative media wins, but inevitable.
And speaking as a person with a disability, I didn’t find the skit offensive at all – it pointed out how a lot of these “Charities” care more about their public image than they do about the people they purport to assist. Especially when they cut serivces in one area while sending big money on company Cars and other perks for the CEO.
The only way for a really left leftie to eat Dofu [sic] is to take it outback, pref near an open drain, and toast it with one of those old spirit blow-torches and “tr-rar!” Chou Dofu, Mao’s fave made a la his fave Changsha cafe. IMHO absolutely foul (tho the chili masks som of the ‘taste’, but still more taste than plain dofu. Probably explains a lot about China from the mid1920s. The rest of the food was great.
I went to a restaurant attached to a temple in Shanghai, which specialises in dishes which look and taste like meat – pork, chicken, beef, prawn, fish – but which are in fact all made from tofu. You’d never have guessed. Damn cunning these orientals, what?
I am sure there is a contradiction in this somewhere…. I think that should read a ’strong belief in hypocrisy’
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/04/kentucky-pastor-invites-p_n_211498.html
The NSW bloggers may choose to continue through meal time. Where do you get a decent feed in NSW?
http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/06/restaurant-hall-of-shame/
I think I was referring more to the Stereotype than anything else.
The Republicans can’t understand a world without hate.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/04/fleischer-obama-balanced/
And no, it wasn’t The Onion.
The Comrades of the CCCCP are not happy with Hillary:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-06/05/content_8250388.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/04/tiananmen-clinton-china-meddling-1989
You sock it to them gal. Sigh, the stuff she has to endure to prop up Obi.
There used to be a place in Perth called the “Happy Buddha” which did this as well. The “meat” made from soy products was virtually identical in appearance and texture to real meat which made it more than tolerable for meat eaters who were obliged to go to vegetarian restaurants. I am not sure if they are still around though.
I haven’t seen or read the speech, so I’m not commenting on it, but it is a fair point to make that one cannot strike a spurious “balance” between right and wrong, good and evil, democracy and despotism. I presume that’s what he meant. Whether he was justified in making that criticism is another matter.
Finns,
As you pointed out earlier, the Americans have a rather benign view of their own atrocities.
I think a lost of the US rhetoric is for home consumption only.
WOW! You sound like a left wing Labor hack!
I don’t think that came across in the sketch at all. The charity in question might well be a fair target for a dose of ridicule (I can’t say as I do know anything about the way it is managed) but the sketch unfortunately failed big time. The thing that surpised me most is how the chaser team could present such a muddled message. They are very smart articulate guys and are normally on the money when firing sarcasm barbs.
The two week lay off by the ABC is a cop out. Boo hiss! The Chaser guys must be fuming.
Frank sick dying kids are a no go zone- the chaser is getting its just deserts. I appreciate the point about many charities, but having done a lot of work with and for SIDS i can tell you that some of these charities run on the smell of an oily rag and do so much.
That seems to be the nature of comedy, sometimes you hit sometimes you miss, but if you censor the misses, then you don’t get any hits. You just end up with Hey Hey It’s Saturday, moronic gags by people who are too paranoid of upsetting advertisers or TV executives to actually use comedy as a method of social critique.
Even some great comedians like Richard Pryor re-evaluate what they have done or said in the past.
Oh and here is The Onion’s take.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2OObOM3R_U
Showson,
Happy to be called Labor hack. Left wing is your paradigm. You can own that.
Yeah right and anything out of Fleischer is worth listening to. He’s just upset about the Palestinian state plans- nothing else
What about the “Oscar Bait” sketch with the homosexual / disabled / Thespian who was confined to a wheelchair?
The Finnigans #130
Fleischer might have something – it is one thing for Obama to be balanced, but there’s a hell of a lot more required than just that. Kevin or any of his ministers could have assisted Obama here and told him, direct from any of their hymn sheets, that the important thing is “Getting the balance RIGHT.” I bet he hasn’t thought of that. If only Penny Wong had emailed him a few of the key repetitions before the Cairo speech he could have known and wouldn’t now be criticised by those wise Bush aides for that terrible failing of ‘balance’. Terrible weakness for a statesman, peacemaker and international mediator to be balanced, eh what?
I’ve heard many in the Labor left complain about how many atrocities the U.S. has committed, you are slap bang in the wackaloon Labor Left fringe with comments like that.
I’m glad you at least now appreciate that Left wing is a far broader term than just meaning Marxist-Leninism.
Bulldust – and there are Charities AND there are Charities – thier use of sick and disabled as objects of pity as a guilt factor to get money gets up my craw big time – and I know from personal experience that such organisations do play favourites on who they support – you don’t play by their rules, you get blackbanned effectively – they prefer compliant families whop do not complain, but get oh so precious if you dare question their motives – reminds me of a certain political party on this blog
Sorry but I’ve got two young kids and nothing upsets me more than seeing kids that have suffered or are suffering. There are 2 many raw nerves for everyone. Pick on the charities if there is impropriatry but not the victims.
#143, i assume there are now “good atrocities” (ala USA) and “bad atrocities” (ala Chinese). I am happy for your conscience.
They should’ve gone after some of the charities that are actually Scientology front groups. Organisations like Narcanon that propose it is possible to cure heroin addiction using vitamin b injections.
http://www.bestdrugeducation.org.au/
SNIP: Abusive comment deleted – The Management.
‘Balance’ in the context of Obama’s Egypt speech is better expressed as ‘impartiality’:
Fleischer, Cheney et al can’t abide that concept – never could.
And they have suceeded in playing on your emotions. And the Charities know that and treat the poople they purport to support as a pawn to feather their own nests.
If my posts upset you so much, don’t read them.
JV, Obama has two big problems:
1. You cannot be all things to all people, at all the time
2. If you raise the expectation too high, they are easily disappointed
Well why stop there then Frank? Maybe the next scetch could be world vision people walking through starving populations offering them buckets of KFC. It’s not no holds bared. Or maybe abolish all charities, just get the needy to door knock themselves, cold call and send out letters.
Which they were by using the EXACT same devices these charities use in the first place, by portraying sick kids as VICTIMS – which they are anything but – it is virtually telling them “why bother fighting this thing with a positivive attitude when we can feed both your own and celebrity egos by emphasising you’re going to drop dead anyway – yes it may be cruel and callus, but that is the underlying message I can swwe from their modus operandi in getting money.
And before you call me heartless, I’m speaking as a person with a disability who cannot stomach the woe is me type image of charitable organisations, while getting VERY Generous tax benefits while their client base fight over the dregs by jumping so many hoops to get such help it is any wonder why we sometimes don’t even bother asking.
You obviously don’t get it – you do not understand how the fight for the allmighty Charity Dollar results in so called proffessional fundraisers making more money for themselves, than for the people they purport to assist.
Why not? It would be fair comment on some of the so called aid that has been dumped on starving populations.
Frank may have given me the irrits in the last flame war, but I agree with him on this. The charities are fair game. The charities use the kids. Pretty hard to have a shot at the charities if you make the kids off limits.
I chose the charity that provides my daughter’s post-school program very carefully. There are some I would happily see taken down. Frank could probably name a few too.
Finnigans
True, but so far Obama has far exceeded my expectations. Back in January last year I expressed the hope he would address the M East situation anew. I didn’t really think I’d see anything like the magnificent opening gambit we have just seen, so soon. Which, by the way, is fully supported by an already well-established and comprehensive diplomatic front right through the arab world and in Israel. Yes, you are going to raise expectations with something like the M East just by taking it on, but how fantastic he is getting stuck right in.
His speech was anything but that. It was certainly impartial, but criticised and scolded both sides, and made clear there would be demands set. That’s what effective mediation is about sometimes – letting each side know the strengths and weaknesses of their position. It’s absorbing to watch this guy in action.
And I should point out that Ch 7 in Perth have a Telethon each year to raise money for Child Research (and the local Kid’s Hospital) and have a “Telethon Child” to put a public face to the appeal – for many years it was a child in a wheelchaie/physical disability, and often the child had a speech problem as well – but more recently they’ve had a Cancer Kids (two of which died shortly afterwards) and kids who don’t have any outward disability but “look normal” – all these were used to delicit sympathy, along with the mauldlin music etc to tug at the heart strings – there was no attempt to paiont a positive aspect of these people’s lives, nor the day to day problems involving difficulties in personal care, transport etc.
And I’ll bet all these Celebrities who attend such fundraisers do it more out of a contractual obligation to the network, than for any Altrustic reasons (though there are some genuine people.
Oh i get it the charities use the dying kids as pawns to raise money for themselves, so we should make fun of the dying kids so that we can expose the charities inappropriate use of the dying kids. Is that how it goes?
Pretty sweeping statement. You refer to them as ‘the Charities’ as though they are all tarred with the same brush.
BTW you can’t feather a nest with pawns.
In most cases – Yes, the amount of money that gets spent on expensies instead of going to the people they are supposedly there to assist.
And I know this from 44 years living with Spina Bifida – Charities only want to help those who play by the established rules – no rocking the boat WHATSOEVER – I call it Complient Cripples.
JV, i sincerely hope Obama succeeds. If not, our side of politics will be completely farq for a long long long time.
Hannity & friends will forever saying “we told you so”
162
That’s your experience. My experience is is far more positive.
Steve K
Or prawns – they’re warm enough after a while – but the stench … the hatchlings refuse to leave the egg.
Lots of noble indignation from those who have never been on the receiving end of these charities.
That’s because you played their little corporate games – try whinging about something or making some sort of constructive criticism – your life within the organisation will suddenly be a lot more difficult.
C’mon frank you’re not meant to agree with my stupid summation.
I think he has a third big problem. There are millions of people in Arab countries that want Obama to help improve their living standards, i.e. they want the U.S. government to do what all the governments in these countries should already be doing.
So a lot of these people want the U.S. to forgo a perceived military hegemony, but replace it with a hegemony where the U.S. government is responsible for the living standards of most Arab countries!
I mean, could you imagine how hilarious it would be if Obama rocked up to Australia and said “The United States is going to work with the Australian government to fight the spread of Polio in Australia!”. But that is effectively what Obama did yesterday:
Sure this is a great charitable idea, but I think what Obama wanted his audience to appreciate is that it is a complete and utter condemnation of the backwardness of the Governments in this region that they can’t even get their populations immunised. Let’s remember also that the Taliban banned the polio vaccine because they proposed it was just an attempt to sterlise Muslims
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/27/taliban-denies-polio-vacc_n_180071.html
The fact is, the problems in these countries are mainly the doings of the Governments in those countries. The U.S. has to simultaneously pretend it is going to use less military force, while on the other hand go around fixing up a huge rage of socio-economic problems that have been caused by incompetent and unrepresentative governments.
Especially if you live in an outer suburban semi-rural area and your hard working parents decided to build a 2 storey house with appropriate wheelchair accessible shower/toilet and you are REFUSED funding, because you didn’t submit the house plans BEFORE construction started – and this was from a Government Hospital – no reimbursment for moneyt spent either. Oh and being denied community transport cause you aren’t needy enough cos of said house, and being picked on because you complain about wheelchair restraints which weren’t deemed to be safe by another disability organisation.
Finnigans
‘Our side of politics’?? Is politics a Rubic’s Cube?
Yes, and doesn’t all of that possibility of failure and what it could mean at home enhance Obama’s standing as a ‘conviction politician’? He’s gone out there taking a risk for the good of world peace. Not many people get an opportunity to personally initiate something as big as this. I think he is swifty pricking the chubby cheeks of the balloon holders who said he was all piss and wind in the primaries and then main campaign.
I imagine the details of this deal were negotiated and agreed before Obama rocked up to announce it.
Frank,
Basically, yeah. Don’t display initiative, go on the waiting list, play by the rules, agree to the photo ops, modify your needs to what can be provided, and don’t complain about obvious injustices and inequalities, don’t expect too much and don’t expect it to be really useful …
Obama delivered his nice speech about democracy in the Muslim world courtesy of the Egyptian dictator Hosni Mubarak, who has ruled Egypt for 30 years thanks to massive US financial aid and who is grooming his son to succeed him. But the main opposition to Mubarak are the Islamist crazies of the Muslim Brotherhood, who would turn Egypt into a Taliban-style theocracy. How to escape this dilemma? I have no idea. Personally I would extend the Israeli security fence so that it encircles the entire Muslim world and leave them to fight it out. (I might exempt Indonesia and Malaysia.)
ShowsOn @ 161
I don’t think it will be seen that way. Obama is trying to repair the tarnished US image as a neutral entity in the world, with a desire to help the less fortunate. When you’re desperate you accept help even from the US. Australia has – it wasn’t polio, but think Coral Sea in the early 1940’s. The 4 Trillion spent on the Iraq excursion would support a lot of vaccination ….
Anyway, I would imagine that he’s already had feedback in spades form the arab nations and through his diplomats as to what will make a difference to attitudes in their areas, and this was reflected in the speech. He wasn’t making it up as he went along.
Oh and fill in 9 million forms, go through the spanish inqwuisition on your health and personal situation – expect a 28 day wait for any funding to be approved if at all – you can only spend the 12 months of money in one order – oh and the orders are through the two cheapest suppliers – examply I’ve just had 12 months of continence funding via the State Government via Silver Chain – I ordered 2 leg bafgs and the associated tubing to empty said bags – the bags arrived yesterday when ordered from oner company, while the ubing and the other goods I ordered are still to come from a different supplier – they had to get 3 quotes for the stuff ordered.
There was a terrific French satirist, Pierre Desproges, who said that you can joke about everything but not with everyone
scarpat
That’s good. A possible conclusion to be drawn being: If it doesn’t make you laugh, just ignore it and get on with life.
Of course the current moralistic paradigm interprets M Desproges aphorism as:
“You can’t joke about Anything if it offends Anyone.”
My own version is – “It doesn’t matter who you hurt, as long as you get a laugh.”
I object to censorship from the ABC, under pressure from the hypocrites in the commercial media. What the f*** are we meant to watch on Wednesday night for the next two weeks? A repeat of some dud British comedy presumably.
Adam Hills and the Spicks & Specks crew better watch out, the thought police will target them next.
You have no idea what my involvement is with charities. Secondly it could be that your attitude is seen as a right royal pain in the arse and that’s why you receive large doses of negativity. I have not idea if this is true. Have you tried seeing it from their point of view?
I’m wondering if there are some kind of commercial pressures inlved as no doubt the ABC would’ve aired Community Services Announcements from Make A Wish, as well as providing stuff in kind such as ABC Kids product and personal appearances from the Bananas in Pyjamas, Play School etc (Wiggles aren’t owned by Aunty, only get their stuff released via ABC Kids etc.) I can well imagine the ultamtion to ABC Management – do something to thnose Chasers, or else we won’t be asking for your product fo use by our Charity.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/06/world/europe/06prexy.html?hp
Psephos
Has Halliburton got a fencing division do you think?
I see you are defending the Tin Pot Dictators who run charities and play favourites by the type of syncophant you are to their organisations – if you know the right people/channels you get what you want, but raise legitimate issues and you’re treated with contempt
Very disappointed with the ABC, they don’t deserve the extra funding from the Rudd Government, particularly as their news/current affairs coverage is up to shit and little more than blatant pro-Liberal Party propoganda.
Psephos
You can see form the article TP linked that Obama stands ready to provide the maintainance on your proposed erection. Halliburton miss out:
And I deplore hack conservative radio talk show hosts, like Alan Jones/Ray Hadley/Steve Price, determining what I’m allowed to watch on my TV screen.
Shame on the ABC and the gutless people running that organisation.
186 “maintenance” – naughty Coopers
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/us-unemployment-hits-94-but-job-losses-slow-20090605-bynr.html
Hang on. If the ABC is run by gutless people how is it that they have an anti ALP bias according to several posters here? A gutless ABC would be kowtowing to the government of the day. There seems to be a flaw in the argument.
The fact people need help from the U.S. is a condemnation of the governments that rule over these people. They need to accept that when Obama says that he is interested in the human rights, health, education, and well being of people in Muslim dominated countries, what he is actually saying is “If you want things to change, you must attack your government’s from within, because when my country attacks your governments from without, they fund another heap of terrorists who end up attacking my country.”
I doubt it, just the ABC managing director Mark Scott paranoid that this could get turned into a political football, and be used by M.P.s to attack the ABC’s funding and / or independence.
Dare anyone to spend a day in a sheltered workshop before they give one of these charities money.
and half of those need to be signed by your GP, who will charge, and it’s not covered by medicare.
And having to prove every year/time that the permanent disability still exists.
And that’s the charities – don’t get us started on the Government ’services’.
I’m pretty sure commercial considerations were also taken into account as well.
U.S. unemployment rate up to 9.4%
But jobs lost in May (345,000) is lowest since last September.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31121258/
Oh I won’t believe me.
What do we watch instead at 9PM on Wednesday? Repeats of THE NEW INVENTORS?
I can’t wait!
Mark Scott is a conservative hack!
But the ABC doesn’t charge money for showing community service announcements. It isn’t allowed to.
Put in SBS Rockwiz. It will put Spicks & Specks into shame.
Some 3rd rate British Sitcom sitting on the shelves – like Dad’s Army
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfQwHb1pWPE
There’s probably another series of MY FAMILY they haven’t shown yet LOL
I’m talking about donations of ABC Goods such as ABC Kids stuff and personal appearances by ABC Kids presenters such as a trip to the Play School Set, a meet and Greet with B1 & B2, meeting Eliot Spencer of Rollercoaster etc. And of course said charity refusing the ABC permission to screen said community serives Announcemnt as Paynack.
That should be PayBack.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/06/05/1243708623806.html
What a brilliant PR coup.
I don’t see the connection.
I’d love to completely boycott the ABC in protest, but then again I’d miss SPOOKS, so that won’t be happening.
What about an ABC Pollbludger show? Live on stage – ALL the stars. See them in the flesh for the first time! Bring the children … or not.
I’m probably showing my ignorance here (ok, I do it with every post), but I was listening to Radio National for a while today and there was a five minute segment of anti Labor vitriol, poorly disguised as humour, by a guy who I think is called Patrick Cook.
Has anyone heard of this person or know anything about him?
Goodness knows what the “new & improved” Chaser will look like on June 24, all very sanitised & boring, I bet.
The Revenge of the Tofu Eaters?
evan14
Yes, Spooks is great. A repeat of the Spook show with the Q&A type progam of a week or so ago would be a superb filler.
Hey, Hey it’s Saturday comedy, you know, the type that refuses to upset TV executives.
Oh you do when it comes from corporate donations – you don’t see most businesses doing it out of the kindness of their hearts – there is ALWAYS some kind of commercial benefit in supporting a worthy charity such as increased PR etc – why do you think Charities drop someone like a hot potato if they’re involved in some kind of controversy and that the reason they give is “Their actions don’t fit in the image of our charity”.
Finns
We can tie some tofu bits at the fag end of our dreadlocks for the show then.
Is there anyone with a more annoying whiney voice than Brandis?
He is a so-called Satirist, and he is a regular guest on Counterpoint.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cook
Is Brandis Howie’s love child? Somebody should do DNA test on him.
I’d prefer it if they waterboarded him
“I did not have sex with that man”
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25592140-661,00.html
Exactly, and here’s a Spooks spoiler: Ros comes back in a couple of weeks.
Woohoo!
Dario: LMFAO
That’s one time I would support torture!
Fair enough, but the ABC isn’t a business, rather, it costs tax payers about $1 billion a year to run, and any profits it makes (like from selling DVDs of The Chaser) must by law be reinvested into new projects.
It is hilarious that he didn’t used to look so much like Howard, it is a role he has grown into.
ABC dumped Chaser.
Leigh Sales dumped Stephen Long.
Thanks Frank.
What struck me was that he was just spouting Liberal Party talking points and accusations as if they were undeniable, self evident, and universal truths, without any attempt to justify or provide evidence to support his rantings.
I thought he was a supercilious prat, not a satirist.
But what do I know.
But providing in kind support to charities is – as I said The Word would’ve been, stop the Chasers, or we won’t be asking for your help in granting wishes, and thus denying both organisations valuable free publicity and kudos – it makes the ABC look good by giving something back to the Community, and it gives “Street Cred” to the Charity that they’ve got major support from the National Broadcaster. Can you imagine if the ABC had a policy of no help to charities whatsoever ? It would make the Chaser’s skit look like a walk in the park.
Leigh can do better than some right wing economist/nerd.
Well, it has to, it has to show some community service announcements.
And again, I have never thought of the ABC as a business trying to drum up publicity for itself, rather, it has a charter that says it must provide television, radio and internet media that reflects Australian cultural diversity, and isn’t put through a commercial sieve.
Why did we get Emerson and Brandis beamed in from the ABC2 Business Breakfast back room?
If only it was true. But there’s probably some pefectly rational explanation for his absence tonight.
Perhaps drowned in his own misery?
You obviously haven’t seen the “backdoor marketing” of ABC Commercial then. One upon a time for a modest fee you could get an audio and/or video recording of a particular program from your local ABC office. Now you have the full gambit of commercial products available via ABC Shops and normal retailing and it’s all tied in to a particular show, and no it’s not done in house, they are doig distribution deals with commercial organisations such as Universal Music for ABC Music and Roadshow for DVD’s and Uncle Rupert’s Harper Collins for ABC Books.
And you may not be aware that Hi-5 was orginally concieved to replace Play School and that the Producers dug their heels in and thus the Show was eventually sold to Ch 9 – oh and who can forget the abortive Active Kids show/DVD’s which were sponsored by the Egg Marketing Board as a device to sell the merits of Eggs.
This has escalated during the Howard Years as a direct result of their funding being cut. Oh and why are the Play School concerts being organised via an outside events company who are booking these concerts in places such as RSL Clubs and Hotel Function Rooms, even though tere is no access to Alcohol and Gaming, iit is setting a bad example when a lot of these places have adequate Community Halls in which to stage these concerts – heck, at a pinch they can use a Loval School’s Auditorium.
Brandis says that Labor inherited the “best financial books in the Western world”.
The sad thing for him is that the world economy is so bad, that even with $300+ billion worth of debt, Australia will STILL have the “best financial books in the Western world”.
Perhaps Leigh found out he wasn’t as “Long” as his surname suggests?
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
the chaser’s skit is small beans compared to the disgusting “Class We Failed” Daily Telegraph headline, for Christ’s sake!
I can just see the headline:
Here’s another indication – this from Hillary in a Fox interview of all things, that corroborates the view that diplomacy has been full-on in the M East – and that’s no doubt mostly with the Palestinians because of of their fractured composition. No organic stop will remain unpulled, it seems:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525178,00.html
A new fresh shiny Obama with lots of hope behind him is going about trying to wedge off and marginalise the extreme elements from the whole.
He is uniquely placed to do so having some Muslim family associations and living in a Muslim country in youth – they will see him as someone speaking who might know something.
Interesting to see where all this heads over the next few years.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/in-buchenwald-obama-to-ta_n_211703.html
We had a number of years there were the US Administration used Muslim and Terrorist as interchangeable words. A habit the media picked up, Muslim was made a scary world. Which only served to make enemies where none existed. So how refreshing it must sound to these same people to hear Obama speak this way. Going from the formula Muslim=Terrorist to respect for Islam as a religion of peace. Regardless what the reality of all that is.
Thomas Paine
Yes, Obama is going about it in the most eloquent but direct way imaginable, from where I sit near the State of Origin sideline with 8 replays available. However, I don’t need a replay of the Egypt speech – Obama scores. Could the right-wing Netanyahu have been thrown a ‘hospital pass’ by the speech and be in line to be crunched by a powerful forward?
It is indeed an electrifying spectacle to see this huge initiative unfolding.
‘Im a dinner jacket’ may lose his job soon I gather at election.
This won’t help.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/obama-ahmadinejad-should_n_211762.html
Finnigan’s query about George Brandis’ being JH’s love-child is probably wide of the mark. Brandis was long identified as a Costello supporter. He was also noteworthy as the alleged originator of the accusation of the former PM as a “lying rodent” – responsibility for which, it must be said, he has vigorously denied.
Re. Patrick Cook: I don’t know if it’s the same fellow who was a cartoonist with the Bulletin, the Fin Review and the National Times during the 1980s, and also wrote occasional satirical columns in one or more of those publications. My guess is that the PC I’m thinking of would be well into his 60s, but maybe he is just anticipating the rise in pension-eligibility age.
It is indeed the same Patrick Cook, who must be performing to orders from the producerfs of Counterpoint or else
Just an idle observation, but commendable of Obama in the Egypt speech, when speaking of religion, not to espouse the view (eg Dawkins) that stupid religious moderates are as bad as the extremists in a way because they provide the basic affirmation that superstition is OK for the unbalanced in their midst, thus unwittingly creating zealots who kill non-believers as it says they should in the quran (and bible for that matter). I think that point was well left out under the circumstances.
The speech I heard wasn’t trying to be all things to anyone, he pretty much laid it on the line, and those that responded negatively came across as the extremists to whom he was giving the finger. The response from FOX news for instance was laughable. No I think he did a good job,and boy can that man deliver a speech.
Of cause Clinton could have done it better, pity she left her assignment in Latin America uncompleted, oh well.
Yes I think so “don’t let this great religion of billions be hyjacked by a few” sounds better than “hey you billion people, why you believe in fairies?”.
lol
The Netherlanders have beaten the English in the opening game of the 2020 comp.
Twit, twit, twittering:
Penny Wong ==> Special Minister of State
Greg Combet ==> Minister of CC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/8082343.stm
OMG,
* Economy in total ruins
* Political leadership in total paralysis
* Saddle with 2012 Olympics that nobody wants and no money
* Now Cricket in total ruins
If England is beaten in tonite World Cup qualifier in Kazakhstan, I would suggest Australian Border Security watch out for new wave of boat people, from England.
Just as well Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr are still going strong. She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
From Melbourne’s Age this morning:
Steve,
Isn’t that an impressive story, it goes to the heart of why Faulkner is so respected.
Australia will always has the lowest debt and deficit of all the major advanced economies under Labor.
Paul Kelly and the alternate Treasurer, Chris Richardson, like they are seeing:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25593641-28737,00.html
Hey, hey Paul, what about Hawkie/PJK?, they laid the foundation for these little piggies:
yes, Oh what a lovely crisis.
Was it Juliem who sent the email??
Look Turnbull’s right it is a completely different issue. Rudd got and declared the loan of an old ute; in the cloud seeding issue $5m of tax payer funds was spent on a mate…
http://www.smh.com.au/national/down-goes-the-first-domino-20090605-byie.html?page=2
No it was BH well done!
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2009/06/02/newspoll-55-45-10/comment-page-50/#comment-284081
For those wondering about the Judas who done Fitzgerald in, this excerpt from an earlier Glen Milne article might give you the map.
THE MILNE MASSACRE
On Monday, Glenn Milne at the Australian presented an email that could either have come from one of Arbib’s critics or some suspect might have come from the Macchiavellian chap himself.
Arbib’s enthusiasm to claim credit was well established some say in that book about the Kevin07 election campaign which saw Arbib well positioned as a campaign genius nearly single-handedly responsible for victory. To be fair to him, Rudd can’t have disagreed or minded too much because he launched the book.
Milne says the source was someone senior in the NSW Right who claimed:
? Arbib was keen to offer an alternative source of power to Rudd than the Gillard/Crean/Latham axis
? Bob Carr – the former NSW Premier – was a confidant of Rudd’s and had encouraged this alternative
? The first big example of it was the elevation of Karl Bitar as National Secretary, (who we note was Arbib’s hand-picked choice who was heavily touted in the pages of The Australian)
? Arbib had somehow positioned himself, Chris Bowen and Jason Clare as spokespersons for Rudd on Sky (not watched by many people except the pollies and journalists during sitting weeks)
? Arbib intends to neck Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon, Attorney-General Robert McClelland, Senator Steve Hutchins and replace them with Bowen, himself (naturally), Mike Kelly or Maxine McKew and Graeme Wedderburn respectively.
Who knows who was the source of such unpleasantness. It was either Arbib doing the print equivalent of wearing a T-shirt emblazoned “Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way” (as many suspect) or someone attempting to disrupt Arbib’s plotting by giving it a public airing.
Nothing would surprise. While the Victorian Right might split from time to time, the NSW is like a big plank of wood with some rather terrifying splinters flying from it occasionally.
Grog,
Given, he used the word “egregious”, I thought it must have been GP.
All good, GG, but the fact is Fitzgerald was sloppy.
I think the rats were more in Defence and his own office.
Also how does Faulkner fit into the narrative?
(and btw does anyone here (or anywhere) not think Faulkner is a choice for better Defence Minister anyway?)
perhaps he’s up to e in the dictionary GG?
Grog,
Don’t disagree about Fitzgerald and lack of attention to detail.
However, I’m suspicious of the current meme that Fitzgerald was the simply the poor unfortunate victim of the DoD. A lot of the leaks could have come from within his inner sanctum and the ALP. There is enough evidence to suggest alternative explanations.
Grog 251,
No, not me ….. I’m only wasting my time at the keyboard to a Lib if it is my member LOL …..
Grog 255,
I want Kelly personally but my husband reckons the scuttlebutt he’s heard at the office says “Combet”.
Finns
Twit is right Finns. I’ll give you 100:1 on that happening. I’ll even read those books aloud to Mrs D as in the last bet I won.
I’m slow ……
…. need my second cup of coffee, the news says it is Faulkner …. NOT who we wanted …….
Diogs,
The Special Minister for State should actually be called the Special Minister for Politics. It’s the ultimate political hack job! You need someone with experience, trusted by all sides and not overtly ambitious.
Very hard to fill as you would see.
Grog,
Just saw this.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/fitzgibbon-promises-to-deal-with-judases-20090605-byig.html
Me too. Even got a reply:
McMullan?
A few of you were mentioning Spooks before (Mrs D loves it so we watched the current series on DVD). Even Spooks has got on the IFR bandwagon. People must be listening. From this weeks episode;
http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/06/04/spooked-by-ifr-on-tv/
On Fitzgibbon: I recommend Shaun Carney’s piece in The Age this morning
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/no-valid-defence-20090605-bygt.html?page=-1
I think if you add his comments to those of Milne above, you will have pretty much the whole story.
Psephos,
Do you think Rudd will reward the plotters? I would have thought political treachery is detrimental to the long term stability of the Government.
Also, what about Michael Danby for Special Minister of State?
GG
One of the secrets of leadership is to keep the factions jostling for your favour – and for the succession should you fall under a bus – in rough equilibrium, so that none gains ascendancy. The relevant factions in Caucus and Cabinet now are not the left and the right, but the Roosters and the Lemmings. Since the fall of Kim, the Lemmings have been ascendant. Now things are evened up a bit. I doubt Rudd has any regrets about that.
Unlikely.
Que?
Surely Diog, you can do better than that for Mrs. D
Pseph, that Age piece just comes across as a wank. Doesn’t really say much that we didn’t already know.
Are the Lemmings like the “Circular Mill” phenomenon in ants?
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/7/24/19122/9957
Ah, but isn’t that the issue? Defense gets the minister the PM gives them, not the other way round.
On a point we can agree, I think, Julie, I was listening to parts of Obama’s speech again this morning. (OK, I’ll fess up, I was watching Stewart put the boot into Fox over their coverage of the speech). I noticed something I missed yesterday – Obama spoke of the 3000 people who died on Sept 11. It didn’t take long after the event for the 3000 people to become 3000 Americans. I always thought the non-Americans had paid a very high price for their “citizenship”.
Diogs,
Not sure if your tongue was on chin. But “Roosters” opposed Latham and “Lemmings” supported Latham’s ascendancy.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25592872-5001030,00.html
Fitzy never had a chance, and never gave himself a chance. he was too baby face and softly spoken for the bullies of DOD.
Herr Field Marshall Faulknerrommel will fix that.
http://www.mumble.com.au/federal/lemmings.htm
Finns,
You need copywrite protection!
“President Bush would never have criticized our military or our intelligence community on foreign soil,” he said. “He basically threw our military under the bus in front of a Muslim audience.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/gop-senator-conservative_n_211780.html
There’s a lot of tough talk going on about Faulkner. And he is tough, no doubt about it. But don’t underestimate Defence’s ability to thicken their hides as well.
Almost by definition Defence is a nest of reactionary Colonel Blimps who won’t take kindly to being told what to do by anyone, much less a Labor enforcer. We don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Faulkner won’t be able to be as nasty as many here think he’ll be.
GG, unfortunately, i am into IPs and patents but not copywrite, sigh sigh.
Just as well since you can’t spell it.
Poly 274,
I only said that because I simply knew nothing about him. Since I’ve been on PB earlier, I’ve read up a bit. I am encouraged by reading the following as part of an article on the Australian
Yeah Finns,
Learn to spell copiwrighte.
Geez GG (283) don’t you know anything? There is no ‘e’ at the end.
At universities it’s spelt p-l-a-g-i-a-r-i-s-m.
I’m guessing most people here claim to have been Roosters. I was a Lemming.
Diogenes
I was a lemming too – from outside the party of course. But the justification was strong – Kim had been totally ineffective. Bob Brown had been the defacto opposition leader for several years while Kim ducked and weaved and turned sideways trying to be that pathetic and ill-conceived “small target”. In the meantime boat people were vilified, Iraq was virtual common ground, and principle was a dirty word in the ALP.
283
Do you mean Kopiwrite?
JV, you people never learn, do you? Brown was the leader of the same 10% of the population he is still leader of – they just seem more numerous because they make more noise. If Beazley had followed Brown’s line in 2001, Labor would have lost 30 seats instead of four. And when we finally got a “principled” leader in Mad Mark, with his schools hit list and his fantastic forests policy and Medicare Gold, what happened? We lost another four seats, as the working class flocked back to Howard. It wasn’t until the Roosters reclaimed the leadership that we recovered and finally put Howard out.
Oh ho ho.
I started raising questions about rats in the ranks when Milne’s article came out and the Fitzgibbon stuff started going on and the party line, as espoused on PB was “Omg no way, Labor is cool no one would do that to Fitzgibbon it’s all the Fairfax media”.
How the pendulum has swung.
GG, would that help if i can spell MONEY
psephos
Probably not, but I’d be interested to know which particular segment this ‘you people’ would be?
Politics is a bit like poetry though isn’t it – it can be read to mean entirely different things to different people.
If Mark hadn’t been mad (public schools & forests), but just principled, he could have done it.
He was of course correct inprinciple on the public schools and on the forests, but mad to rush in like a bull at a gate in the terms he did at that critical time. He has as a result done irreparable damage to both – look at the schools ‘policy’ now: Don’t wake the sleeping bear.
JV,
The Greens trying to reclaim their glorious past when they were a mere 4 or 5 million votes away from snatching Government? As Psephos has pointed out, the disaffected working class vote went to the Libs and Howard ended up with a majority in the Senate.
The Greens weren’t even in the frame.
jv @ 292, he sits on the opposite side of the tree from us, thus the “you people” reference. My response to your #287 is “what he said”
…….. If not for the fact that it meant the satisfaction of knowing I voted for Kevin directly and that was eliminating the pain of the Howard years I would have voted Greens #1 at the 07 election PURELY on the strength of the fact that my then member, Chris Hayes (now party whip), voted on Beazely’s side in the leadership spill. My response to that choice on Haye’s part was more or less along the lines of what the *@&$ was he thinking 
290 Oz – As a matter of interest what has recently come out to back up your claims?
GG – I wasn’t talking about the Greens, I was talking about the moribund ALP under Beazley
Latham’s schools policy would in fact have meant an increase in Commonwealth funding for the majority of private schools. Only a small group of private schools would have had their Commonwealth funding reduced. It still beats me why anybody would deliberately choose to make the second fact the selling point of the policy instead of the first.
That said, nearly all the schools that would have had their funding reduced were in New South Wales (where Labor made a net gain of seats in 2004) and Victoria (where Labor held onto the majority of seats it already had, losing only one seat, McMillan, and that only because of the redistribution–without the redistribution McMillan would have been held too). Labor lost seats in 2004 in Queensland, Tasmania, and Western Australia (none of which had any seats on the so-called ‘hit list’) and in South Australia which had just two.
Of course, it’s more than possible that dopey people in the smaller States switched their votes because they mistakenly thought funding for their children’s private schools was under threat, but that just brings me back to my original point–why would you choose to sell the policy in such a dopey way? Maybe the public prominence given to the ‘hit list’ was partly a consequence of the way the media (thanks, fellows) chose to run the story, but my recollection (although I’m willing to be corrected) is that Latham and his team also chose to play it that way, for reasons which utterly escape me.
297
Sorry–none of which had any schools [not 'seat'] on the so-called hit-list.
juliem
Yes, getting rid of Howard was the priority alright, and what a night it was! But at the same time I knew the ALP wouldn’t be making much difference on the big issues. So sad.
J-D
Not sure either, but I imagine the MSM just picked the list out of the policy as it was released. Pretty dumb as you point out, when overall the private schools weren’t going to be hit at all. The tragedy is that now neither party will do anything to slow state aid. The only thing that can happen in the future is that they will get more – never less.
The Howard mongrels set it up so churches get a bonus for setting up private schools from scratch – I think they actually make money on the deal these days. Rudd has done nothing and will do nothing to rein that in (no pun intended – unlike the Libs I won’t drag the PM’s wife into the debate
)
Labor made a net gain of ONE in NSW, gaining Parramatta and Richmond and losing Greenway. We only won Parramatta because of Cameron’s scandal and Richmond was mostly demographic change. Greenway was a typical outer-suburban lower-income seat, lost by a leader who supposedly spoke for that exact demographic. What about Dobell, Robertson, Eden-Monaro, Macquarie, Macarthur etc? NSW wanted to vote Howard out, but they weren’t willing to vote for Latham and his policies.
The Labor revisionists have done a good job of convincing themselves that the problem in 2004 was the slightest whiff of left-wing policies as opposed to Latham being a complete dropkick moron.
We could say the same of the people who kept putting up the blowhard windbag Beasley who managed to lose two elections to Howie and would have lost a third if Rudd hadn’t cut down his decomposing political carcass. Beasley stood for absolutely nothing and the electorate knew it.
They weren’t – because of the instability of the former and the incompetent presentation of the latter.
It wasn’t because the policy principles were intractably unpalatable to the electorate. The Iraq war was on the nose (which Beazley ignored, leaving the high moral and political ground on it to Bob), curbing the money to rich private schools is not a concept that the average joe is going to oppose in principle, and the old growth forests are a winner too if it is handled properly.
The Latham failure should not be used to condemn good policy to the rubbish bin.
Obviously the country as a whole, not just New South Wales, was not enamoured of Latham, and I don’t discount the possibility that the way the schools policy was sold, or even the policy itself for those who actually understood it, was an element in this. The fact remains that, for whatever reason (and I know it may just be coincidence), Labor turned in a worse performance in the smaller States (which had almost none of the ‘hit list’ schools) than in the larger ones (which had virtually all of them).
Oz:
Adam is right – the Green or “progressive left” support – what i like to call the “Hopkins-Smythe” demographic – is only about 10% and the core of it is probably closer to 6% or lower
pre-1970s British Labour would never win an election today and neither would pre-Whitlam (and even Whitlam might be pushing things) Australian Labor
Oh, and what about Dobell, Robertson, Eden-Monaro, Macquarie, Macarthur, etc? I’m not able to check, but I would be surprised if many of the ‘hit list’ schools were located in seats like those. I wouldn’t be surprised if they, like the small States had none or almost none of them.
Re 303 – By ‘good’ policy I mean slightly better than usual. I actually believe there should be no money for private schools at all, eventually. It works against a secular egalitarian society.
Olivia Cunningham
That’s one reason why we need PR. (Dare I speak it’s name?)
JD I dont think it was that parent’s believed their schools would be hit but it was just a silly policy by Labor by bringing class conflict into politics…
Latham – Hit List
Rudd – Laptops and Education Revolution
Of course both policies are dubious in quality but the positive perception that Rudd was able to create around his policy drove it from start to end while Latham’s gave Howard and Co a free kick.
JV,
You wrote:
“Bob Brown had been the defacto opposition leader for several years”.
Brown is not and has never been a member of the Labor Party. The Greens historical revisionists (PB Branch) trying to airbrush the most ineffective politician of all time in to a position of historical prominence is bollocks. Pity about the facts, they destroy Greens fairy tales every time.
Have we still not grasped the concept of the *aspirational* vote? Not many people in Greenway or Braddon or Wakefield or Bonner send their kids to private schools, but plenty would like to. Large sections of the lower-income demographic reject equalitarian arguments about education, because they rightly see a private school education as the key to higher income status for their kids. I agree that this is unfortunate in some respects, but it’s a fact that won’t be reversed any time soon. Successive state governments and the teachers unions, who believe them have dragged down the reputation of government schools, have a lot to answer for.
who between them
Oz,
That Labor properly and honestly evaluated why they lost in 2004 is a key reason why they were elected in 2007.
That the Libs have not even started the process is pretty well known. But the Greens are worse; think they won and are now the popular Government.
I wasn’t suggesting Labor adopt the Greens policies en masse. My point was that I don’t think people turned off Latham because they thought he was some kind of mad socialist, but just because he was mad.
Glen, the policy wasn’t ‘hit list’. ‘Hit list’ was how the policy was presented, not what the policy was.
I still remember my local member, Tanya Plibersek, talking about the policy during the 2004 campaign. Her seat (which was she in no danger of losing regardless of Latham’s policies) does contain some schools which would, I think, have been on the ‘hit list’, like St Andrews Cathedral School and Sydney Grammar. But what I remember her talking about was how the policy would benefit East Sydney High School, a community-based independent non-government school in Darlinghurst which specialises in catering to the disadvantaged and which would have benefited from a substantial increase in funding under Latham’s policy.
It just seems basic to me that if you want to sell a policy you emphasise the people who will benefit from it, not the people who won’t.
It may be, for all I know, that the policy could never have been popular no matter how it was marketed, but that’s not an excuse for stupid marketing.
The teachers are in a difficult position. If they say the education system is wonderful and has high standards and doing a great job, the pollies will say they don’t need any more money. If they say it’s terrible, understaffed and mismanaged then they are running down their own system and encouraging people to move into private schools.
Doctors in public hospitals don’t have that problem. If we say the public system is terrible, more money gets put into it and more people take out private health insurance so it’s a win-win.
Psephos, taking the policy as a given, they should at least have tried to market it to people in Greenway or Braddon or Wakefield or Bonner by pointing to the sort of private schools that they might possibly have aspired to and which would have gained from the policy. Given that no schools in Queensland or Tasmania were on the ‘hit list’, at least in Braddon or Bonner this shouldn’t have been too hard.
The policy may have been right or it may have been wrong, but the marketing strategy was definitely wrong in the most obvious possible way, and I still don’t understand how that happened. (True, logically ‘Latham was mad’ does work as a possible explanation, but I’d still like a more detailed one.)
GG
de facto:
As in : Becasue of the vacuum left by Beazley’s opposition free zone, Bob Brown, ssnator for the small party the Greens was the de facto opposition to the governemnt on issues of principle such as Iraq and seaborne asylum seekers.
Indeed. I wrote a little analysis of the 2004 defeat for circulation in the ALP, which I might put online now that’s a matter of ancient history. Hereis the concluding section:
Thank goodness Kev was in charge.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25596199-601,00.html
JV,
The more you try to explain it, the less convincing you become. The only defactos in your analysis is “de absence of factos”.
Psephos # 319 – Interpretive analysis of your paper:
1.
“focus on broadening educational opportunity for all young Australians”
=
‘Continue Howard’s outrageous and profligate state-aid increases for the rich.’
2.
“our tax policy must add up and not create classes of losers”
=
‘out tax policy must continue the inequities of middle-class welfare and tax scales created for the rich by Howard’
3.
“Our environment policy must stop pandering to the Greens”
=
‘ environment policy should be based on polling rather than leading the voters towards protection of the environment based on the best science. ’
Congratulations. The party has taken you literally. Yes, the Right knows how to win.
The only question is who really ‘wins’ with these ‘policies’?
GG # 321-Thanks. I’ll take that as a concession.
Speaking of BB,
from todays weekend magazine in The West ….. brief bits on things @ him ….. “If there were a parallel universe, I would be a photographer”. Likes apricot jam on toast off of the fire with salted butter and fair-trade black coffee. Does NOT like Earl Grey tea. adds “Diverting 6% of arms spending and every poor child on Earth would get clean water, a full belly and a schooling”.
310
Bob Brown is not the most ineffective politician of all time because
a. he has been elected several times
b. fellow members of his party have also been elected
c. he and his party colleagues have been and are in balance of power situations
d. said party gets many votes
KISS for them Kev. Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them and tell them what you told them. Again and again.
“The only one to register positive economic growth, the fastest economic growth, with the lowest debt and the lowest deficit.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/weve-outperformed-other-economies-rudd-20090606-byyi.html
Rudd won’t be able to win though. He’ll be considered a braggered and bighead now, just watch.
219 some good advice there Psephos.
Let’s hope there is no Liberal doppleganger of yours out there providing similar sensible advice.
I’d like to see how that was calculated. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how prosperity is created, not surprising since Brown is an old 70s Marxist at heart. Poor countries do not need more aid, they need access to markets for their goods. The biggest obstacle to relieving poverty in the world is agricultural protectionism in Europe and the US.
If there was a world wide democratic government (along way off, I know) then most arms spending could go and a large amount of money could reallocated from defence to health education and infrastructure. The US and EU farming subsidies could be banned. Tax havens could be abolished and race to the bottom tax cuts ended as well as effective implementation of inheritance and wealth taxes.
A world wide democratic government would also be able to take serious action on climate change.
Also places like Pakistan are big spenders on arms to the detriment of the health, education, infrastructure, welfare and other areas of spending. This means that it is not all about access for markets but a redistribution of spending within poor nations.
Psephos @311
What do you mean by this?
If your going to do away with defense spending you need something else to top up the economy, weaning the economy off carbon might be an idea ummm.
Yes weaning the economy off carbon would be a major project if the world government started this century.
Greg Sheridan on Obama’s speech:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25593203-5013460,00.html
PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd has elevated Greg Combet and Chris Bowen to federal cabinet positions in a reshuffle.
But Home Affairs Minister Bob Debus and Parliamentary Secretary for Health and Ageing Jan McLucas are not in the new look front bench, under the changes announced in Brisbane today.
Mr Combet becomes Minister for Defence Personnel, Material and Science and Minister Assisting the Minsiter for Climate Change.
Mr Bowen becomes Minister for Financial Services, Supperannuation and Corporate Law, as well as Minister for Human Services.
Brendan O’Connor takes on the Homes Affairs portfolio, replacing Mr Debus, with responsibility for policing and law enforcement and the administration of Australian territories.
Mr Rudd said Mr Debus would not re-contest his NSW-based seat of Macquarie at the next election and would retire after nearly 28 years in NSW and federal politics.
Senator Lucas had stepped down from her portfolio duties, wanting to focus on her role as senator for Queensland, Mr Rudd said.
Bad choice by Obama?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/06/2591315.htm?section=justin
GP – how magnanimous of the great Sheridan to deign to give the upstart POTUS 7 out of 10. Who would listen to anything that right-wing flea says, even if there are some truisms behind his tripe, which he delavues with his puffed up pronouncements.
‘delavues’ – French for ‘devalues’, I think.
Certainly not French for devalues.
So Ludwig, Sherry and Snowden are also on the move then…
No 336
So Nick Sherry has been demoted? Good riddance.
Other changes to the Labor frontbench include Senator Nick Sherry’s appointment as Assistant Treasurer, while Kate Ellis takes on the role of Minister for Early Childhood Education, Childcare and Youth, in addition to her Sport portfolio.
Senator Mark Arbib becomes Minister for Employment Participation and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister on Government Service Delivery.
Dr Craig Emerson, currently Minister for Small Business, Independent Contractors and the Service Economy and Minister Assisting the Finance Minister on Deregulation, will also become Minister for Competition Policy and Consumer Affairs.
Warren Snowdon becomes Minister for Indigenous Health, Rural and Regional Health and Regional Services Delivery.
Joseph Ludwig, a former barrister, becomes Cabinet Secretary and Special Minister of State, and continues his role as the Manager of Government Business in the Senate.
Maxine McKew will be Parliamentary Secretary for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government.
Gary Gray has been appointed Parliamentary Secretary for Western and Northern Australia, Jason Clare as Parliamentary Secretary for Employment and Mark Butler as Parliamentary Secretary for Health, and Richard Marles as Parliamentary Secretary for Industry and Innovation.
[Greg Sheridan on Obama’s speech:}
#335, so?
Hahahahahahahahaha
Interesting
Here is the headline “Ludwig is New SMS”
No 345
Indeed. Heaven help the finances of Australia.
Haven’t you been paying attention GP? We aren’t in recession
Jan McLucas lives in Canberra – she is not going to focus on her role as a Qld Senator. She was dumped before she became the next Fitzgibbon.
Yeah, was just thinking that as well. Good to see Rudd is being proactive.
Hey, It was Howard who departed parliament with a boot up the arse from the electorate. Sherry has done OK.
Pffffffft.
SNIP: Offensive comment deleted – The Management.
That was exactly the sound when Howard was kicked in the butt. I heard it and so must you.
Not funny.
Yep Steve right on.
Howard is still whining from wollstonecraft as well
Just getting in before GP did
Getting rid of world poverty. Fairly easy, if we really want to. But we don’t want to because their would be some unappetising consequences:
1. Call off the third world debt.
2. Get rid of agricultural subsidies. I suspect the global order of magnitude of this is in the order of tens of billions per annum.
4. Get rid of or reduce dramatically global military spending which I suspect is in the order of hundreds of billions per annum.
5. Provide active support for democracy, rule of law, education and human rights – as opposed to propping up corrupt dictatorships which usually generate corrupt, inefficient economies. (See: Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Pakistan… and any amount of corrupt dictatorships propped up by the West over the years).
6. Provide active support for environmental management. Poverty-stricken people often get into a vicious cycle of destroying the environment that sustains them. There is often a direct link between agricultural subsidies and what third world farmers do to their farming land.)
7. Provide support for all aspects of health.
8. Get rid of national barriers to the movement of labor and people.
I suppose Joe Ludwig as Special Minister for Politics was obvious with hindsight.
Fair enough.
GP at335. I love the implication by Sheridan that people in Muslim countries believe Obama is a Muslim as a result of distortion through government controlled media. It’s hardly likely any Muslim media outlet would deliberately spread this lie, but of course Sheridan’s mates in the US were running with it, along with the claim he wasn’t bon in the US. Probably a larger proportion of Americans believe it than citizens of Muslim countries.
Congratulations to the Rudd/Gillard Government’s Spinmeisterish handling of timing on the share scheme snouter backdown.
Day 1. Gillard kicks union butt. (Approving sighs from the commentariat about what a jolly old ‘centrist’ government we have).
Day 2. Swan caves in to the venality of it all and agrees to increasing the cross subsidy that some working families will contribute to union mates and shareholders of select companies who have access to share schemes.
Brilliant stuff.
They’ve spread others in the past, so it’s quite likely.
Don’t forget there’s still a report from the taxation review to come. I wouldn’t be surprised if wide sweeping changes are recommended. I don’t expect Rudd in this term to implement major changes (as if he could anyway with an obstructionist Senate) but there should be some tax issues worth campaigning on. The revised share scheme might still be a target.
Boerwar @363
Well said. Political pragmatism at its very worst.
Steve K
I haven’t forgotten the tax review and sincerely hope that the Rudd Government carries out a systemic reform of the taxation system. I believe that the Howard/Costello Government added over 5000 pages to the tax act. It is now so hopelessly complex that it is just about opaque even to the Taxation Department, let alone to ordinary Australians.
Given the Rudd/Gillard Government’s craven collapse in the face of the share scehme snouter squeals, I am not hopeful about the prospects for any systematic reform.
So the Govt. identifies a rort – then decides to do something about it. When its decision is announced they accept that it has unintended consequences so they change it. How is this a craven collapse? Given they could have done absolutely nothing.
Wait, Debus.
So he switched from state to fed politics in 07, got a ministry for half a term, and he’s going to retire for the next election?
What was the point, from his POV?
Ru @336,
Combet is not in Cabinet.
Mr Combet, the architect of the ACTU’s 2007 Your Rights At work campaign. will enter the ministry as the Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science and the Minister Assisting the Minister for Climate Change.
Mr Bowen, the former Assistant Treasurer, is promoted into the Cabinet as Minister for Financial Services, Superannuation and Corporate Law, and Minister for Human Services.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25596611-661,00.html
It’s the sound of Liberals’ deflating hopes of using SerfChoices to steal the future of the employees of Australia any time in the next few years.
Perhaps he had a conviction that he needed to help the ALP gain government and boot out Howard? He had a very big personal following in the Blue mountains and he had a fairly well known profile in the rest of the electorate. He would have polled better than anyone else, especially when we lost our local member Peter Andren to cancer.
Tom.
I was looking back at when Rudd announced his first Cabinet and saw this.
What were Swan and Rudd’s “differences”?
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/12/10/1165685544177.html
Was Swan not part of the clique that included the likes of Stephen Smith who were strong Beazley backers?
368
Quite right. I’m more annoyed with the unions defense of the scheme than the government’s decision to increase the threshold.
?
http://www.smh.com.au/national/kevin-rudd-announces-reshuffle-20090606-bz0v.html
Ruawake 336, unless I missed something in your post, does that mean Combet takes over Snowdon’s spot? I thought that was Snowdon’s portfolio. If NOT, what is the name of Snowdon’s portfolio? Your summary doesn’t identify any change for Snowdon at all. Imho, Snowdon (while not getting heaps of questions in QT) has done a quite good job with what he has.
This explains why McLucas is choosing to “wanting to focus on her role as senator for Queensland”.
sorry Ruawake, I post as I read and don’t read them all first, now I see 343, thanks
Oz
Combet’s new job puts him in the Ministry but not in Cabinet. All this Parl Sec stuff gets confusing as to whether they are on the front or back bench.
Why does it not put him in Cabinet? I wasn’t aware that Cabinet was only for pre-designated ministries. I thought the PM could put whatever Ministers he wanted in cabinet and take whoever out.
I’m only going off what’s in the SMH, so they should probably change their article if you’re correct.
If she was actually resident in Canberra, then she might have eligibility problems. Especially if she was living in Canberra at the time of the election.
Parliamentary Secretaries are on the Middle Bench.
Oz
Combet’s “Ministries” are just the second fiddle jobs to the Defence Minister and Climate Change Minister. Why would you want the lackey in Cabinet?
As a steppingstone to higher things.
Chris Bowen has been elevated to Cabinet, technically so has Faulkner (he was cabinet secretary). So we have minus one in Fitzgibbon – replaced by Faulkner – who is replace by Ludwig.
So did Cabinet just grow by one ?
Steady on, Diogenes. Combet’s extremely able. He’s won battles that would have most people too terrified to even draw their swords.
ruawake
They identified a rort.
The rort is where one part of the taxpaying population subsidises wealthy shareholders of certain companies and union snouters associated with those companies.
The unintended consequence was that there were some union snouters in there who started squealing. The latter have demonstrated no interest whatever in the social injustice of poorer workers subsidising wealthy shareholder snouters or union snouters.
The Rudd/Gillard Government knows all this perfectly well. They caved in and have perpetuated a social injustice as a result. It bodes ill for any gumption when sweeping, systemic tax reforms are called for.
Yes that would be Snowden’s current job. Pity, he was quite good in and outside of Parliament. He hung around a long time to get a guernsey for half a term. But I guess he is old blood and might not stay around too much longer. Don’t think he will complain at all.
Would be good if he went in to NT politics and took over the ALP there, that would boost their chances a fair bit at their next election.
My god, Combet is a champion compared to many others. He is no hack, he is a smart doer. But these guys need apprenticeships before going in the deep end. Just see how much trouble Turnbull has had.
BB
I wasn’t referring to Combet as a paeron, who I think is excellent. I was just saying that his two jobs were like helper jobs to the real ministers for Defence and Climate Change. It seems very weird to have the “helper” in Cabinet. I still can’t work out if he’s in or out.
paeron = person
Snowden has become Minister for The North – “Minister for Indigenous Health, Rural and Regional Health and Regional Services Delivery. ”
I am sure he will do a great job.
OK, gotcha.
Have been an admirer of Combet for many years. Met him just once (by introducing myself in a Post Office!), but as soon as I did he was mobbed by the other customers.
Leafy northern sydney suburb, too, it was.
Boerwar
If this Govt. had not identified the rort – nothing would be done at all.
Straight from the horse’s mouth/twitter;
So Bowen is the only new one in Cabinet.
Finns
wRONg again. Although I have heard Combet has been given a bigger role in CC and he’s taken over the negotiations from the Wongster.
ruawake
Agreed.
Something is better than nothing.
But sacrificing a social justice principle to some snouters is not what I had expected from Rudd/Gillard.
Boerwar
The Govt. has poked a stick into a hornets nest with the employee share rort. Some people have made a huge mistake by not accepting the original plan.
Anyone read the excerpt of Annabel Crabb’s Malcolm Turnbull book in ‘The Age’ lift out thing-y?
All fairly blah blah on young Malcolm, but there were two or three hagiographic references to Howard which I found — puzzling? repulsive? misguided?
Basically, she portrays Howard as a conviction politician who wanted to be PM to achieve real policy outcomes and who told it like it was.
Whereas I always have seen Howard as having no real convictions at all (’These are my principles. If you don’t like, them, I have others”), whose policies were populist and reactionary and whose every statement had to be dissected to work out what the trick was.
AC has jumped the shark.
All Howard was really interested in was IR reform and getting elected.
This is good news – if the more radical Islamists join mainstream organisations there is more chance of changing their minds:
And this is interesting . It ties in with one of Obama’s themes in the Egypt speech about improving muslim societies to reduce resentment. How the Indonesians are making an impact on radicalism:
Seems to work if it’s responsible for the drop in JI numbers of 90%!
Link to above article
http://www.theage.com.au/world/ji-numbers-have-plummeted-terror-expert-20090605-bykf.html
Geez Debus federal career did not last long. I would have thought he would at lest try for 2 terms before going. Although he is considerabley old even by parlimentry standars. Maybe the Rudd wasn’t happy with his boat ppl response or jumped before pushed. juicy looking seat up for grabs.
SNIP: See article 2 of comment moderation guidelines – The Management.
Something that the Stuffed Zucchini Party fail to take into account when formulating their polices. The Aspirationals are what I refer to as the Kath & Kims, and as I’ve said a multitude of times – THEY decide elections, not mung bean dope smoking hippies
.
jv
How about Debus wanted to help get rid of the Howard Govt. he helped by winning Macquarie off the Libs.
Now he has done his job – he can retire at 67. Its that simple.
Zoomster
On Annabel (who would be great fun at a party I reckon) when looking for your Turnbull book article – which I couldn’t find online – I read AC’s normal column today, and she says among other things,
Why would Latham spare the lefty?
Cause his righty was removed?
ruawake
Could be, but I’m a bit like the French, I don’t like it plain and simple. The seat may be harder to win at the next election, so why wouldn’t the popular local member stay another short while to help the party hold it, and retire before the following election. That would be my plan. 67 isn’t that old for a pollie. I stand by my analysis.
Ruawake 409
LOL – very good! But I must point out a factual problem (not that it matters):
He’s having a bit less fun himself now.
A problem Costello would never have.
No. Faulkner was already in Cabinet as Special Minister of State. He was (and still is) also Vice President of the Executive Council.
What the hell is going on with the Air France plane? The stuff they found was not the plane and they seem to have no idea where it is. In this age of satellites being able to read your license plate, GPS, black box recorders and instant communication anywhere, something has gone seriously wrong here.
Planes have about four different communication systems and we still have no idea what’s going on. I’m starting to get suspicious.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/06/05/ST2009060503853.html
JV, I recall Debus announcing his retirement whilst at State level. He only announced he was coming out of retirement some months later to fight for the federal seat after taking some weeks to decide whether he would seek preselection. He only decided to run AFTER Andren decided not to run for Macquarie. This was prior to Andren being diagnosed with terminal cancer. Why do you call your misinformed guess work ‘analysis’?
Tom.
‘Turnbull at the Gate” – The Age Good Weekend, extract from next Quarterly Essay by Annabel Crabb.
‘Howard’s ideal novel…would concern the policy adventures of a deeply principled…prime minister with a thing for cricket and an eagle eyed wife…’
‘one imagines..Howard’s night time reveries [as a teenager] were complicated affairs in which he single handedly dismantled Australia’s system of centralised wage fixing…’
‘Howard…was fiercely memorable for his convictions and what he did about them…’
Oh…and she has a line about Rudd and psychobabble.
Here or the ones committed o/s
Sorry Tom, if you’re offended for some reason. But why not ensure the seat is safe to help ensure two terms Why announce the departure now? If the seat was the only objective why was Debus appointed a minister at all? Why couldn’t he just continue on a minister until near the election and then announce his retirement?
If it was all planned from the beginning for Debus to be given a half a term ministerial appointment it’d be rather shallow, to say the least. What, he wants it on his resume? Rudd says, “Sure if you win the seat you can have an important ministry, but only for half a term, mind!” Don’t think so. I stand by my misinformed guess work.
zoomster
Aren’t there some layers there with AC talking about the world from Howard’s own perspective – about the ideal novel for example – that’s what Howard would see as ideal, not AC. Same with the ‘reveries’. The only opinion there is the ‘memorable for convictions’ bit. And he was about some things, like the monarchy and test cricket, and .. leave it with me. And Rudd often does spout babble of various detailed types. Annabel’s still my party escort on those bits.
jv
we’ve agreed before that I get the majority of the party guests and you get the others on preferences.
Up until reading the article, I would have kept Annabel, but now you can have her.
Thanks zoomster, I’m sure Annabel’s as happy as I am about that
We might get a table at dinnner before the party near Stephen and Leigh.
Doubt it – his boat people response was excellent – is it an issue anymore? Nope (despite the protestaitons of a certain news.ltd shock blogger)
But geez, if that is Rudd not really doing a reshuffle, I can’t wait to see him really get going…
So who were the losers?
Shorten seems to have been left behind by Combet and (to an extent) Maxine. Arbib’s come from nowhere (parliamentary wise that is), but no sruprise really – being a Senator makes life a lot easier. Seems like Gillard is lightening her employment side load – most likely to put more into education aspect – still need to get the revolution going.
Though Shorten is doing the Bushfires gig, but surely that only a temporary position…
Grog that’s why they’re now calling it ‘building the education revolution’ hahahahaha
The education revolution is the biggest furphy…
Gillard should never have had 2 portfolios no matter how talented or not she is.
the bigger the furphy…
I always thought once she got her IR leg through she’d quitetly offload it (at least in practical terms if not in the sign on her door)
Given that 70% of the Earth is covered in water, wouldn’t you think they would make black-boxes that didn’t sink like a stone? Just what kind of people do we have running air safety?
I’m a bit mixed about the “Education Revolution”.
In higher education, the Feds have increased spending, which is good, but lots, lots, lots more is needed to make up for the shortfall of the Howard era. But in a recession you can’t expect everything to be fixed straight away. Getting rid of full-fee paying places was good as well. The amenities fee could be a good thing, if handled right, and it accepts the political reality of the situation – it’s going to be almost impossible to reintroduce compulsory student unionism. Youth Allowance is still woeful. The deregulating of university places is stupid.
In primary/secondary, the imbalanced and flawed private funding model has been retained. The laptops thing is happening but I’m not sure how useful that will actually be. Renovating schools etc. is good but should be a mandatory part of government responsibility not something that we should be incredibly grateful for. Standardised curriculum is good. Introducing league tables is not so much “revolutionary” but revolting.
So altogether, the infrastructure side is pretty good but in terms of policy it’s been pretty weak.
Diogenes you should read Ben Sandilands blog:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/
A lot on flight AF447.
Diogenes @ 425, it’s hard to see how this could be accomplished in engineering terms. The only reliable way to get a black box recorder out of a hundred tons of rapidly sinking metal would be some kind of explosive device coupled with a floatation mechanism. Can’t see pilots being really comfortable with the first part of that.
Chk-Chk-Ka-Boom. Oh! Susanna, oh dont you cry for me, I come from Reality, with my fantasy on my knee.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/tv–radio/our-15-minutes-of-shame/2009/06/05/1243708621134.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Oz 426
Absolutely agree on primary/secondary education. It’s a crock. We are creating a full-on two tier society at present. The private – choose who they want with all the money and resoucres, versus the public – cash starved and take the rest of the kids. It’s an absolute travesty of the egalitarian system we used to have.
Of course the sacrosanct ‘aspirational’ voter is drawn to the advantaged private school because, in their mind it will make their child an instant top drawer employment prospect. They can join the monied elite club through the side door. And when it’s made cheap, they lap it up. Particularly when making it cheap means the public school down the road has no resources or extra staff, and they know this and don’t want that for their baby.
And Howard’s policy of ‘You’re a church, and want to start a school? Well here’s a bucket of money” is being allowed to continue unabated by Rudd. (See Latham, earlier)
This to me is what will be an eternal failure for the Rudd legacy. I’ll certainly be shouting it from the rooftops if anyone ever tries to lionise him.
Ozy
It would depend on how the plane broke up. Just stick it in a tail-wing or something. They must know how a plane breaks up when it crashes so just put it where it will break free. They have two anyway.
And how come it doesn’t emit a tracking signal strong enough for it to be found? The whole thing stinks. There’s an awful lot of questions and no answers.
Diog, more to the point. Why cant the data be transmitted continuously, in real time to a central server, wireless via satellite etc. etc.
Why do you need the black box and it is so 60s contraption.
Diogenes, the black box tracking signal has a range of about 1.5kms however the area of the ocean where the plane is thought to have gone has a depth up to 6kms
The Finnigans -
Nonetheless -
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2009/06/05/af447s-last-messages-point-to-the-dragons-that-can-drag-down-a-jet/
scarpat
They’re sending a French nuclear sub to find it but there’s no way it could dive to 6km. The tracking signal only lasts 30 days. That emphasises my point about making sure the blackbox doesn’t sink like a stone.
Especially Dio when there are 2 black boxes on board…
You’d think they could make one of them float
Oz, back in the 60s when men went to the moon. they were able to monitor in real time when the astronauts were farting from the other side of the moon.
The Finnigans
Where it should be done, I’ve been told, repeatedly. But out on the side verandah is far enough away in my view.
Just like Dave Letterman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm_YIwSac18
Diogenes, #435 The nuclear sub is being used to locate the black boxes because of the advanced accoustic detection facilities it possesses
#440, i bet you the “advanced accoustic detection facilities” cannot detect the doplhins farting.
One painful lesson I have learnt in life is that every time I think I’ve come up with a good suggestion, someone else has already had it ages before. Wiki describes the future of blackboxes (which are red) here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_data_recorder
#441, Finns, Don’t bet on it. They know where you live
Diogs,
“Given that 70% of the Earth is covered in water, wouldn’t you think they would make black-boxes that didn’t sink like a stone?”
Wouldn’t it be even better if they built planes that fly?
GG
My money’s on a bomb.
#443, we live in the ocean where the blackboxes live, as well.
I hope it doesn’t explode, you’ll lose the lot.
Diogenes, Though a bomb hasn’t been excluded it is not near the top of the list. No one as yet has claimed responsibility and it has been a few days since the plane disappeared
Diogenes
I would bet on a combination of pilot error and weather. Sandilands’ report suggests a developing situation over a period of at least minutes, and an inappropriate speed for the conditions, all shown by automatic transmisisons. A bomb would just stop everythng at once.
Well Finns (#446), with your sonar capabilities why aren’t you out looking for them?
Finns
There are so many stories of dolphins saving humans from drowning, sharks etc but I’m not holding out much hope for the poor people on AF447.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21689083/
Diogs,
The reports I have seen and heard refer to extraordinary storms and winds. Basically, the plane disintegrated over a 15 minute period.
#450 – The humans would not pay
Finns,
You haven’t got any pockets anyway.
Scarpat
I don’t think anyone legitimately claimed 9-11 either.
Diog, in the immortal words of the Chaser boys: “They were going to die anyway”
GG, is not true. we do have pocket where we “store” the “swinging” thingo. we simply whip it out as required.
Finns,
You dolphins are nothing but big swinging fish.
Diogenes, I am actually blogging from France. From watching the various French news and talking head programmes, the bomb hypothesis isn’t in the forefront of the possibilities. However it has not been ruled out either.
#459, any chance that it was due to Carla Bruni’s wardrobe malfunction?
#460, I think that it had all to do with her wardrobe function!
Scarpat
Lucky bastard.
Air France was very quick to leak the “lightning” hypothesis which suited their purposes. Each plane is struck by lightning twice a year on average and they are built to easily withstand it. Of course, Air France knew that when they put up the theory with no evidence to support it whatsoever.
I still think something’s fishy here and it’s not just Finns.
#461, how is D-day being “celebrated” over there?
Diogenes, Sorry but over here no conspiracy theories are doing the rounds (as yet)
Diog, if you recall few weeks back in Melbourne. the pilot of an Emirate Airbus “punched” in wrong data and almost caused a crash.
Maybe the pilot of this AF also punched in the wrong Carla Bruni’s figures.
Diogenes
Alright. But let’s think from the point of view of a potential bomber. What do we have to make this happen now? Obama’s speech in Egypt I guess is the obvious impending event at the time. They know what he would say and want to make a statement that would make his conciliatory words seem useless. They feel undermined by US peace initiatives and their authority could wane among the ordinary muslim citizens. So a plane comes down – when was it? – just before the speech by day or so? But what’s the point if the world doesn’t know it’s you angry muslim extremists making the statement? Also why Air France from south america? Because of the Nth African muslims in France? Mmm, no, it doesn’t hang together as a theory for me.
Actually, Finns, Carla Bruni’s figure is on the TV at the moment and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it (the D Day commemorations are on starring Barak, Michelle, Carla and her pet dolphin, Nicholas)
Gee JV, how did “Muslim” suddenly appear?
Scarpat, has Michele flipped Barack and gone for Ehud Barak? It must be something Barack said back in Tel Aviv.
Sorry Finns, but I was just hypothesising on potential plane bombers in the context of diogenes suspicions and Obama’s big muslim/US reconciliation speech. Rather theoretical, but it’s 10:45 after all …
In my defence I did say I don’t believe that’s what happened.
Finns, the ‘c’ must have fallen into the sea somewhere between here and Ostaraya. A search has been organised to look for its black box
Methinks this is the more likely scenario. AF445 was an Airbus A330-200. QANTAS was Airbus A 330-300.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24460989-952,00.html
The computer’s name, on board the Qantas Airbus, wae later revealed to be HAL.
#473 wae = was
I posted too soon:
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/World/Story/STIStory_386831.html
Imagine this interchange happening when Bush was being shunted around:
Not only that but Obama’s invoking the recently shunned image of the UN as part of the process. This kid is good. Who isn’t watching all this with interest.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/world/europe/07prexy.html?ref=politics
475 first two lines ex quotatation
Fins, re plane computers, they’re different!
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2009/06/03/af447-mid-air-breakup-evidence-raises-new-discussions-about-the-last-signals-sent-to-paris/
Apparently these planes have telemetry, they send data back to ‘home’. They said the last they heard from it that it had reported an electrical fault.
So I on this information am assuming it sent nothing after reporting a fault, which seems must have very quickly become a catastrophic failure, so much so it updated no more.
If it were a bomb it would have had to have been very large or perfectly placed to ensure sudden end of transmission, immediate destruction of computers. Where are the computers on these things? Now it is possible of course, an explosion, a monetary reporting of an electrical fault then nothing.
If it were a deliberate explosion why has nobody come and claimed it, would be no point otherwise. If it is bad weather shouldn’t there be reporting from the pilot?
It seems like a catastrophic electronics error, one that you could only be that sudden if it were a major lightning strike that overwhelmed protections?
I thought those black boxes had beacons in them now?
So the possibilities are endless; bomb, lighting, meteorite, hit another plane? computer(s) failure, power(s) failures, suicide pilot. One would hate to think that it did the same as the Qantas flight and did a dive straight into the ocean.
Diogenes from a more civilised time did quote:
From a distant memory of an MSM report (hence at least a three degree removal from reality), Wayne Swan was the heir-apparent to the spoils, but Kevin Rudd was appointed to some office or other during the Goss years).
Party Elder, Bob Hogg (I think), settled the troubled waters, during the run-up to the Rudd challenge for Opposition Leader, and forged the Rudd Prime Ministership and the Swan Treasury.
That’s the gist. Details may coincide with fact, but no guarantees.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8086860.stm
This is just balderdash:
We are becoming more and more a lynch mob society. First the Chaser wowserism and now this.
It’s just another case of “We know he’s guilty, let’s just hang him.”
Even from this distance I can see there was no way a murder charge could be proved. The Crown knew it was rooted on the murder charge (where’s the evidence, despite the coroner’s bold assertions), so offered the lesser charge. Once it was accepted, then the parameters are those of manslaughter, not murder. In other words no intention to kill. It was accepted that he recklessly or otherwise unintentionally through his fault caused death on the evidence so his advisors suggested pleading guilty. Yes, he left her after a problem arose, weak bastard. But that’s all. 12 months inside. Fair enough. The objective process has been observed. What the MSM is trying to do is retry a non-existent murder case because the dead woman’s parents parents are upset. As they would be. But where are we with this ‘review’ – Salem Massachussets 1600s?
So to the National Review , Latino is the same as Asian, or foreign is the same. Talk about mixed up.
They depict in a Buddha position
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/inational-reviewi-perplex_n_211931.html
Flaneur #479
Hey Flaneur – how are you travelling?
Your young memory is clearly still working well. Those are the sort of early hackerdom hatreds that can be enduring, unless everyone wins in the end, as Rudd and Swan have, fortunately for everyone around them. Well Rudd anyway.
Also, I saw no apostrophes in your post to quibble with. Your standards remain impeccable. Cheers (Coopers, of couse)
Thomas Paine # 482
Sad isn’t it. Or deliberate, which is far worse. This is what Obama is up against at home with his M East plan, and we saw some of the charges last night, not from fringe dwellers, but form ex-Bush insiders – accusing Barry of being too ‘balanced’. It doesn’t get more surreal than that.
jaundiced view Did sagely quote:
I lay awake at night, dreading the approach of the apostrophe!
Though not attending, I do observe your noble championing of the Preferential Voting system.
A noble, though, I suspect, Quixotic endevour.
Now to business: next time you are in Sunny Bris Vegas, I’m duty bound to entertain you with some real beers from the Ecclesiastical parts of Belgium. From which, the meaning of life becomes self evident!
PS: Given your “young” comment, first shout is mine.
s/endevour/endeavour/
Nothing good about it at all. If International Students can pay, so should local students.
No 481
12 months for killing a human being, intentional or not, is an absolute joke JV.
Flaneur
How can I resist an offer of, say, Belgium’s finest, Chimay? Some others’ beers don’t measure up but connoisseurs’ choices are always good. Give me an apostrophical mark at ticster forthwith, eh?
Generic Person:
You bloody pacifist!
Jaundiced view:
Oui!
GP – Yes, I know it was bad, but what would be an appropriate term in a very small room surrounded by very stupid lugs in all the circumstances of that case of causing death unintentionally.
No 492
I don’t believe jurors are stupid. I believe judges are too lenient.
GP – The ratio of stupid jurors is a given. The bell curve is difficult to argue with. They are however supposed to be impartial, not venal, as the foreman was in Jo’s infamous trial was, for example. The udge was correct in that case from memory. As the judge was in the diving case. Tell me what the judge failed to take into account on the evidence.
No 494
JV there is no “given” since the jury process in Australia is closed and not open to public scrutiny.
Finally got around to watching Obama’s speech. Underwhelming after all the hyperbole from other other bludgers. Still pretty good. I particularly liked how he brought the issue of women’s rights to the forefront because the Muslim world’s record in this regard is frankly disgusting.
GP – What, selection for jury service randomly from the electoral roll is opaque?
No 493
I don’t believe judges are stupid. I believe commentors judge based on pre-conceived positions.
GP @ 496 Don’t worry about what David and Margaret might rate the speech at, just look at the reaction to it where it counts. Do you need any leads in that regard? I would hazard the guess that this is the most significant and effective speech made by any world leader in 50 years.
*slumber rolls over me*
No 497
JV, you cannot judge the intelligence or otherwise of a juror from the selection process. People are often excluded based on mere appearance, rather than based on a full-on objective vetting process.
No 499
JV, it’s hardly the most significant or the most effective in the last 50 years. Now that’s hyperbolic.
I found these more “earthly” reactions interesting to read, and probably right on point:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-06-04-speech_N.htm
Further to my 402
Summary of Arab media responses:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/06/07/what_he_said_how_the_arabic_language_media_heard_the_big_obama_speech/?page=full
Have to agree with you here GP. I could get more for throwing a rock at the neighbours cat. There was also the insurance policy which he took out for her and which was accessed in undue haste. Very smelly business.
JV, there was no jury trial. He pleaded guilty to Manslaughter at the committal hearing before a Magistrate and was duly sentenced. Smart defence team and lazy prosecution. I would think cost was a major consideration in avoiding a lengthy Murder trial with an uncertain result.
394 Ruawake, do you know what Macklin’s portfolio is called? I thought Snowdon was getting some of her stuff but in an article I read, her name wasn’t even mentioned. My query is what involving Aboriginal affairs then is hers if Snowdon has “health and regional services delivery” in that regard …….
422 Grog,
While one’s personal life isn’t a disqualification from service to your country, I would think Rudd wasn’t amused by the way Shorten handled his female relationships since the Govt. moved to the ALP after the election. I suspect that if Shorten keeps his personal life out of the media and settles down in that regard, he might be on the move with the next reshuffle. (In case you don’t recall what I’m talking about; the breakup of his marraige and the 3rd party involved being directly related to the GG)
Insiders intro:
Forget the economy. Forget we’re travelling better than most other countries.
Remember Fitzgibbon and a second hand ute.
Irish PM Brian Cowen hammered in by-election
Fianna Fail being a centre right party. This next quote is interesting and shows how a centre right economic ideology doesn’t work in recessions.
Did the Irish not read the history on the Great Depression, cutting services and upping taxes were one of the big reasons why the recession of the ’30’s became a despression. People stop spending.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25599902-23109,00.html
Irish political parties confuse me. There must be some difference, surely, no matter how small, between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael? (I mean, apart from the difference in their historical origins, which I do understand.) But I can’t figure out what it is.
Isn’t this the story of contemporary Western politics?
Fianna Fail were backed by Eamon dal Vera (i cant spell his name) and Fine Gael were backed by Michael Collins Oz i believe it has to do with the pro and ant Treaty groups that fought the Irish Civil War in 1919-1923…
why does this not surprise me? …..
The big losers, possibly even more so than FF were the Greens in Ireland. They got absolutely hammered. EU exit polls had them on 3% and local government tallies on 2%.
Fianna Fail was actually outpolled by Sinn Fein in Dublin Central. The salt in the wound is that the FF candidate was Maurice Ahern the former Lord Mayor of Dublin and brother of former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.
OK, the Chaser got two weeks for being a “little” insensitive.
The Insiders should get 10 weeks until it gets more insightful commentators and analysts.
Families, Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs. Snowdon will (I assume) be a junior minister in the portfolio area.
Dogma, the Irish are sufferring now for mis-handling the boom. Their economy was already screaming along when the joined the common currency. At the time the rest of Europe was in a period of slow growth and interests rates were low. So Ireland when already booming received a massive 3% cut in interest rates in a 6 month period. What the government should have done in that period is increase taxes to slow the boom and to build a suplus for the future or to introduce speculative taxes on property development.
If you go to the docks of Dublin, you will see thousands upon thousand of units that have been built by the recent building boom. There are more vacant units in Ireland than there are people in rental accomodation to occupy them.
They can’t go into deficit a big deficit at the moment because it would break the Euro agreement and because no one will lend the government money at a rate which is worth paying. Their bond issues are being rated as high risk. They’ve committed themselves to a bailout of Anglo-Irish Bank which is looking like a bottomless pit. And because of the Euro, they can’t adopt a different interest rate or engage in a devaluation to take away the pain of structural re-adjustment. Ireland is going to have to do this the hard way.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2007/05/25/coming-to-grips-with-the-grand-irish-art-of-politics/
Insiders today hit a new low.
The commentary was of the most trivial kind: cheap, giggling, pub talk.
The ute business was handled with such a low modicum of insight I wondered why they even bothered. Tabloid observations, pompous moralising (”Not a good look,” said Annbelle… have you looked at your own hair lately, baby?) and an either egregiously careless or (worse) deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. There was no mention that the OzCar scheme applies to finance companies, not car dealerships, and thus that a car dealer asking for favours couldn’t be given any by Rudd or Swan. That didn’t stop Piers, of course. Nothing ever does. The guy who lent Rudd the car wrote to Treasury to ask how the scheme would work, as is not only logical, but his right. Not a mention made of this rather salient fact. They wanted the “Millionaire PM” to be seen as pettily grasping at every freebie out there (except of course the $19,000 cash in lieu of a car, which Rudd does not claim). No mention that a second-hand ute is small potatoes compared to a routine large cash donation (which of course can be applied to any purpose, as a car cannot). No, it was “Rudd on the take”, clear as a bell. Even Rudd’s comprehensive answer to Turnbull’s question (an answer that took so long – an hour- to obtain because the question was about such a trivial matter) was passed over. They’d rather go on and on about his hands shaking, his anger. “Oooo look! The PM lost his cool!”. If it had been me I’d have reached over the table and slapped Turnbull’s face for disgracing QT with such a nothing, yet insulting insinuation… which the Insiders dutifully took up, like sheep following the leader.
Piers even got in a mention of Rudd’s 20% of his time spent overseas. As if the GFC had never happened. If it had been Howard we’d have heard no end of how magnificent he had been rubbing shoulders with the high and mighty of world leadership to solve the problems of the battlers back home. It’s a wonder – a true wonder – he didn’t bring Heiner back into the frame. No, Rudd is a galavanting, globe-trotter, wasting tax-payer’s money when he should be back here in Australia answering nothing, nowhere questions about his second-hand ute.
How bloody pathetic these Insiders are.
juliem,
Shorten’s exclusion from the Ministry at this stage is about the politics of numbers and State representation. You’ll notice that the two Ministers standing down were from NSW. You’ll also probably notice the elevations were from NSW. QED.
FYI, Shorten has done really well in disabilities with all the lobby groups not only pleased with him but almost proud of him and his advocacy of their cause.
In the Victorian bushfire relief effort he’s been Rudd’s everywhere man, immersed in detail to ensure no family is left behind in the bushfire reconstruction.
He has a lot on his plate and is doing exceptionally well.
You seem to like to peddle baseless gossip as political insight. But, don’t expect anyone to take you seriously.
I had one look at INSIDERS, noticed that Porky Piers was on the panel, and changed channels, very glad I did so!
Lindsay Tanner showed again, on the Insiders, he is world class. If the Greens want to toss him out of Port Melbourne, there is something wrong with the Greens’ mentality.
They should be spending their resources and energy tossing out other Fffwits. Australia needs MP like Tanner.
Thanks for the comments on Irish political parties.
There isn’t as much difference between the ALP and the Liberals as I would like there to be, but there is some difference, and I know what it is. I even know what difference there is between the Liberals and the Nationals. I can figure out the differences between parties in other Western countries, even if they are small (and in some countries they’re smaller than they are in Australia). But I can’t figure out the difference between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. (Come to think of it, I also have difficulty figuring out the difference between the LDP and the DPJ.)
Yes, thanks, as I said I know the history (and it’s ‘de Valera’, by the way). It doesn’t explain what the difference is now. (That’s like the LDP and the DPJ too, come to think of it.)
Labels like that don’t help me, unfortunately.
Maybe we need to rename the show OUTSIDERS. Few of the regular panelists would have access to even the most lowly of ALP parliamentarians so to suggest that they are Insiders is over inflating their ’status’.
On insiders, Tanner was very vocal that a DD election is the last thing we need during the global financial crisis.
My sense was he was directing his comments to his ALP colleagues and the Greens, not the Opposition
“Insiders” watchers have already made up their minds on Rudd and assess such crap accordingly one way or the other. Not worth worrying about.
526 – Tanner made one aside however that suggests to me the government will go to a DD if they need to. He said “unless forced to”.
That was obviously a message to the opposition.
523
So you are suggesting that the Greens should not spend much of their resources on winning their best seat. The Greens are not crazy and will target it. If Tanner is so good, then he can always be parachuted into the Senate or one of those safe as Labor seats that are not in short supply in the Northern and Western Suburbs of Melbourne.
If you want Tanner in the House of Representatives without doing one of the two things mentioned above, then PR is the only solution.
Scorpio at 505
Yes, I know there was no trial – GP had brought up a general comparison between juries and judges, that’s all.
The point about this diving case is the sentence once the plea was entered, and the Attorney’s over-reaction to it. Once the plea was to manslaughter, the magistrate or judge couldn’t sentence as if there was intention to kill. There is no intention in manslaughter.
The situation for sentencing then became one analogous to, say, leaving the scene of a car accident in panic when you could have helped someone injured who then died. Then the judge/magistrate takes into account all the other relevant factors like the fellow’s history (probably excellent and never been in trouble), chances of doing something negligent like that again (probably nil because of the unusual circumstances)
Nothing can be taken into account from what might have been led about intention to kill, such as insurance policies (they had just got married so taking out policies might be thought normal at that point anyway), or assumptions about whether the woman’s air was turned off by someone, or the other speculative comments of the coroner.
In all those circumstances four and a half years with 12 months minimum seems pretty strong to me. 12 months is a long time in gaol, when you are assumed to have had no intention to kill. Should be long enough to teach him not to panic and leave someone to die next time. And he’s no threat to the community.
So, the reaction of the Attorney is just to pander to the suspicious lynch mobs out there in voter land.
The unless forced to is also a political message to the electorate that if there is an early election then it will be because of the Liberals.
Tanner will be Ok next election.
In France there is a crime of non-assistance to a person in danger.
Life insurance should be banned as it is an incentive to murder. For income protection income protection cover should be available that covers spouses, partners, etc.
Tanner may well survive the next election (but will have a serious challenge with a campaign on on climate change and other issues) but what about the next election and the Election after that?
I would think Tanner will be taking it “one election at a time”. I really believe the toughest election for Labor will be the next one, not the following one.
If there is a DD over climate change in the next year it is unlikely to be tough for Labor (except Tanner and maybe Plibersek and Albanese).
Could be right but I think the economy will dominate any election we have next. I also think the following election will be at a time when the economy is showing real signs of recovery and that will blunt any oposition attack.
I think that the lack of a technical recession has helped Labor on the economy front (against the Libs).
News from WA: Liberals in all sorts of bother
van Onselen joins the attack against arch CC denialist and Liberal back bench
waste of a safe seat Jensen on dodgy travel claim allegations
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25597748-5017005,00.html
Liberal premier Barnett admits he has big budget problems due to Chinalco
Rio deal failing:
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25597802-948,00.html
One of Barnett’s first acts as new Liberal premier was to overturn Labor’s moratorium on Genetically modified crops and now it is causing trouble with WA’s produce exports to major market Japan:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/07/2591540.htm
Bush gave the Israelis the green light on settlement expansion in 2004. Gee that particular bit of stupidity is helpful just now. Hillary has had to distinguish between ‘formal’ and ‘informal’ policy on it:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3726920,00.html
J-D, when Ireland was an agricultural country, Fianna Fail was the small farmers’ party and Fine Gael the big farmers. Now they are all fat bastards, so it’s a bit like tweedledee and tweedledee-dee-dee.
Nathan Rees is in real trouble – the Tony Stewart business has blown up in his face. There is the court case Stewart has started in the Supreme Court, and now Richard Amery has broken ranks:
link for 543 article
http://www.smh.com.au/national/big-price-to-pay-for-spearing-one-of-your-own-20090606-bz32.html
Anthony Green,
Thanks for the info on the Irish economy, they seem to be between a rock and a hard place. The Euro was a good idea, but it limits to Irish on making there own decisions. With the unoccupied units, they seem to be in the same boat as the US, oversupply, which for Australia we’re not in yet.
Once again thanks AG, seeing how other countries work politically and economically really interests me. We really are very lucky to be living in Australia.
I agree with Antony on the Irish economy.
On the subject of the Celtic Tiger, if there had been a referendum in Northern Ireland in 2005 or so, on keeping the UK or joining the Republic of Ireland, how much traction would a “Join the Celtic Tiger” campaign have had with the Protestants?
So the WA Govt want us to “Dob in a Bikie”
Doesn’t the WA Govt know that Bikies WILL know who dobbed them in despite calls to crimestoppers being annoymous.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/07/2591598.htm
No 547
Ah Frank, first a supporter for silencing all opposition, now a supporter of bikies. I think the tofu is the least of your worries.
No Generic Heffalump, I’m referring to the practical problems of such a scheme – Bikies are notorious for paying out on people dobbing them in, and I fear MANY innocent people may be the subject of “Bikie Justice”.
I’m reading “Gomorrah” ATM. The bikies have absolutely nothing on the Camorrista. They murder 300 of each other a year.
Diogs,
Just nature’s way of keeping a balnce in the parks.
JV, I am by far no expert on law, but why is the magistrate compelled to accept the guilty plea to manslaughter? Wouldn’t this only be the case if the magistrate/prosecutor had made that offer available to the defendant and shouldn’t this mean that the person responsible for allowing the manslaughter plea should be under the microscope rather than the sentence?
Tom.
Finns,
Tanner’s seat is Melbourne. It takes in the CBD and the inner north eastern suburbs like Carlton, Fitzroy and Richmond.
Melbourne Ports is to the south of the city and his held by Michael Danby.
Greens always hope they can win Melbourne. But, as a noted philosopher once said, “Tell em they’re dreaming”.
The margin is only 4.71%. The inner Northern Suburbs of Melbourne have gentrified over the last few decades. Labor has moved to the right. The Greens are in with a chance.
I think Barack is a tad serious abut the M East thing:
The US is apparently peoposing a Palestinain state on 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital! Dramatic stuff.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3726893,00.html
No 550
The Gomorrah film is certainly a revelation.
GG
The problem is that all the Camorrista go into hiding during a war so the gangs just kill the innocent relatives instead.
Also the Greens got 5.94% more primary vote in the Senate in Melbourne the the House of Representatives and the Labor party got 9.16% less. If the House vote had been the same as the Senate vote then Bandt would be in the House and Tanner would not (unless a member for a safe Labor seat had resigned and been replaced at a By-election by Tanner).
Tom @ 552
That would be the proscecutor. The process is one in which the prosecutor changes the charge against the accused to manslaughter instead of murder on the undertaking there will be a guilty plea to that lesser charge. Therefore a murder charge is not before the court. There is just the plea of guilty and then the sentencing based on the lesser charge. It isn’t a case of the magistrate/judge saying to themselves: “Well he’s just pleaded guilty to manslaughter, but I suspect there’s more to it, so I’ll impose a heavier sentence on the suspicion he did it with intent, not just negligence.” Of course that’s what the parents (naturally) and the lynch mobs want.
Clearly the prosecution knew he would be acquitted of a murder charge on the flimsy evidence they had. All they had was him swimming away from her when she was in trouble, and an insurance policy. Not enough. He says he panicked (although I believe his story changed somewhat over time) and there’s no direct evidence to contradict him it sems me from this distance.
Sad for some, but unless we want summary justice by the mob, that’s the process.
In Green hopeful seats at the next Federal Election, I don’t expect too much change.
It is likely that there will be some slight swing against the Liberals across Australia: that will tend to be ex Lib voters now voting ALP. If all goes well for the Greens and they can put up credible candidates against the likes of Tanner, then at best they might be able to get some voters to switch ALP to Green. The nett result will be that the combined Lib plus Green vote will be largely unchanged against a largely unchanged ALP total vote. In the very few seats where Libs come third that means a slight swing to the Greens TCP. The TCP swing will only be about 80% of the 1st pref swing away from Libs, though, as roughly 20% of Libs give their prefs to ALP over Greens in such contests anyway.
End result: for Greens to win Melbourne, there needs to be about 6000 more voters switching ALP to Green, than those switching Lib to ALP. That is a 7% excess swing.
Very unlikely.
In France they don`t have guilty pleas except for minor offences (but are talking about introducing they for some more serious crimes to reduce the judicial backlog).
Tom The f & B @ 561
Yes, and their system is very different to ours, being the inquisitorial system, in which special magistrates do some of the investigating before there are charges. There was a fictional show on SBS a while ago about one of those guys. Quite interesting.
JV @ 559, I can understand the fairness of the process and the restrictions therefore placed on the magistrate whilst sentencing, but the outcome basically stinks (if the guy is in fact guilty of the greater crime that is). Very hard one for the family to accept.
Tom.
A significant number of the voters who voted for the ALP in the House but Green in the Senate may decide to vote Green because defeating Howard and the Libs is no longer there priority because Howard is gone and the Libs are not seen as an electable force. Climate change and various social issues can also be used to show people that Labor is too right wing as government tends to highlight policy and mangement weaknesses of those in it as well as people who get annoyed be the actions of government.
If Batman and Wills were changed to East-West axis (rather than North-South axis) seats then the Southern one would be a Labor Green contest.
Tom
Yes, it is a nasty one. As a diver of a lot of experience myself, what he reportedly said about her being ‘too heavy’ to assist is the greatest load of codsawallop I’ve ever heard. He says she panicked, and what people who panic underwater do is immediately rush for the surface. The hard thing is for a dive buddy to prevent the panicker rushing to the surface too quickly and effectively busting their lungs and getting an embolism – because in active panic they usually spit out he regulator which traps the air under pressure in their lungs and it doubles in volume from 10 metres to the surface. As a rescue diver, he had been trained to assist divers in panic, and knew very well what to do. Divers are neutrally bouyant underwater and can easily be brought to the surface. Even if they were a bit too heavily wieghted they can be carried up – if you want extra help a small puff of air into their vest with the push of a button does the trick. He was lying about that IMHO.
GG, tq. stand corrected. Yes, they did say that Melbourne was a nice place for a village.
Unions wuss out in QLD.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/07/2591582.htm
Maybe the anti-privatisation unions should team up with that part of the South Brisban branch that called for Bligh to be thrown out.
Anyone who can`t see the “e” on the end of “Brisbane” in my last post needs their eyes and/or computer checked.
No 569
The unions had their chance to get rid of Bligh a few months ago. Too little too late to complain now.
I reckon.
Lindsay Tanner’s defence of Labor’s IR policy on Insiders this morning can be extended to how Labor thinks they should be perceived in terms of promoting workers and their unions.
“On aggregate, Labor government’s get better outcomes than the others”.
So Labor’s argument is that on aggregate, they’re better than the Liberals (can’t see a party being more anti-worker than that). Good, high standard to hold yourself too.
That standard is one of the reasons that people have, are and will switch to the Greens.
573 – I doubt it.
Go on doubting and start, sorry continue (Fremantle), loosing to the Greens.
So the Greens are the “union party” now are they?
If Labor was doing everything the unions wanted them to do there would be hell to pay from the conservatives and the Greens, let’s be honest. Labor wouldn’t win no matter which way they went, particularly with some people here.
The reason Bligh got back was because the conservatives were worse. Why throw out ‘bad’ and get ‘worse’?
574 why do you think that people have switched to voting for the Greens?
Tom, keep on dining out on Freemantle old son because that’s as far as it will go.
I see some have returned to the Melbourne Fantasy – Tanner will win on Primaries.
When I said about the suggestion of Bligh being thrown out it was actually about the part of the branch in her electorate who want to have her thrown out of the ALP over the privatisations (this came up in a previous thread). Having the Greens in would be better though. The Unions do have to be stood up to sometimes but they do need to have some power to keep employers in check. Labor could move to the Left and still get votes in the marginals. Public ownership is quite popular with voters. It is less popular with governments without a ethos of fixing things for people sake rather than to get votes because voters punish governments if they don`t run public assets properly.
At the last Victorian state election, the Greens got 10%. The most up to date poll had them at 15%. This is not good news for Gonwyn Pike, Richard Wynne and the replacement for Carlo Carli in 2010. The Greens have the prospect of two seats in NSW in 2011. Also the is the prospect of upper house gains in SA, Vic and NSW in 2010, 2010 and 2011 respectively.
Yes Tanner winning on primaries is a fantasy (well not quite).
Hockey puts the shock meter up to 0.01:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/07/2591616.htm
Hey what about a big congrat. for the Socceroos for reaching 2010 World Cup, the real football, without conceding a goal or a match. Two in a row, well done boys.
I’m not a fan of privatisation either, being in Victoria where everything has been privatised except my kitchen sink. I think under certain circumstances people do prefer public ownership but I’m not convinced yet that it overrides their fear of the economy going down the tubes. If a government thought privatising public assets would be more likely get them thrown out than running the states economy down they’d keep the assets I would have thought. I can’t believe a Labor government would privatise to ‘win’ unpopularity with its core constituents. It must really be necessary for the state’s bottom line. But who knows.
One of the reasons she got in was a scare campaign against the tories on privatisation and public sector job losses. It’s blatantly obvious that this was her fiscal agenda all along and that’s why she wanted to go early before the budget.
It’s complete political bastardry and unions or no unions the voters of Queensland have every right to be shocked and dismayed.
Yeah Socceroos were great, but they got nothing on my Crows
!!!!
Well you should have kept that info to yourself GB. Expect a knock on the door from the privitisation police any minute.
Nothing to be shocked about. Privatisation is good policy. It’s just a shame that the LNP is not the party actioning it in government.
GB
Look at what Bligh will sell:
The Port of Brisbane Authority – The company not the land.
The bit of rail that transports coal, for coal companies.
The Company that owns and sells plantation timber – but not the land.
A Coal terminal.
Hardly the Crown Jewels.
These “assets” need $12 billion in funding to keep them viable – money that would need to either be borrowed or be taken from other sources.
Selling them will raise $15 billion – its a no brainer and the LNP would do the same.
The Queensland state election was 2 months ago. You can’t honestly believe the government hadn’t started formulating the budget and wasn’t well aware of the situation. The privatisations were planned before the budget, though perhaps not in great detail.
If Bligh had the guts to take it to the election then there’d be less anger. The fact is, she made no mention of it and ran on a policy of opposing privatisation and public sector cuts, including attacking the LNP for supporting the above. Now she thinks she get rid of the political backlash early in the electoral cycle. She may get away with it politically by the time the next election rolls around but that doesn’t mean it’s not a complete disregard for democratic government.
I think it is a case of “never waist a crisis”. Many governments don`t want to run things because they have problems if they run them badly. This applies to public transport, utilities and prisons. They just don`t want the responsibility for PR reasons. Having private companies than run them and private companies that donate to political parties and companies that employ ex-politicians is another factor. Debt fearmongering by ideologically committed rightists is another factor.
Oz, what anger – most people in Qld could not give a stuff.
If it’s such a “no brainer” then why did Labor keep it a secret during the election?
These assets employ thousands of people in the public sector and bring in billions of revenue.
And again, the “LNP would do the same” is a pretty weak defence.
John Quiggin’s view -
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2009/06/03/queensland-privatisations-good-bad-and-ugly/
586
This is an argument for political honesty laws that allow voters to sue politicians for gaining office on false and misleading promises such as this. There is in not however a conclusive argument for it. If such a scheme were implemented there should be an option of a referendum as a get out.
#587, the World is a stage, but unfortunately you aint got one
You’d think if Ruawake could articulate the brilliance of fire-sale privatisation on a blog, Anna Bligh could do it – especially if the LNP agreed.
Oz
Did you read Quiggin’s article?
When was the election? When was the latest statement of GST revenue?
Yeah I have.
Hahaha the spin is out!
You’re the one suggesting it’s good policy anyway. Would you support the privatisation if the economy was booming? If the answer is yes, GST shortfall is irrelevant to the discussion.
If the answer is no, then you have to ask yourself if you’re being deluded by thinking the government was unaware of the situation until precisely after the election. If you take off your Labor glasses for 5 minutes you’ll see that the economic situation and the planned privatisations are exactly the reason Bligh went early in the first place.
So Johnno, (I went to school with him) does not like private road tolls. This supports your hypothesis?
Except they do not.
For the record, just because a state company employs hundreds, or thousands, of people is not an argument against privatisation.
QR does not? QLD Forestry does not? Bzzt, good try.
No it’s not, but it is a valid point when a party accuses the other of supporting public sector job cuts and then implements policy to lead to that outcome itself.
The Govt is not selling Queenland Rail – stop verballing, the number of people employed in these commercial enterprises number in the hundreds tops.
They are planning to sell the coal moving part of QR (I would think that that would be the most profitable).
Ruwake clearly lives in an alternate universe, pointless arguing this.
Selling the Coal part is not bad financially if they then immediately anounce a process of phasing out coal.
Swine flu at Puckapanyal!!!
That would be hilarious/awesome.
Most coal companies own and operate their own rail networks. I would think passenger and rail frieght may be a bit bigger?
But of course the Greens would just close the whole lot anyway.
Sorry Oz. Your quoted link failed your hypothesis, your gotcha moment is nonsense, admit you failed.
The greens are pro-rail. More so than Labor. I was not talking about the size but the profitability. Most of passenger isn`t profitable. Some of freight rail is profitable and the most profitable is the large volumes over long distances all year round of valuable commodities (like coal).
If there was a section that was more profitable then they would be selling that.
I posted Quiggin’s view out of interest, because people here are interested in what he has to say. Nonetheless he agrees that the roads and rail are a bad idea.
You haven’t actually managed to refute anything I’ve said, but that would make this too much like a high-school debate – something PB could never be accused of.
For those who love political intrigue, this is one week in Britain.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/battle-for-survival-at-no-10-mandelson-key-to-defeat-of-rebels-1698754.html
Quiggin misses the point on toll roads – he does not mention Brisbane Council owned toll roads. He says tolls should be replaced with a congestion charge and it will be harder if the Qld Govt sells its toll roads.
Qld Motorways operates 61k of two toll roads – The Gateway and Logan motorways. Piffle.
His objection to QR Coal is that it may result in job losses. There is no evidence for this – QR coal operates state of the art trains – it only employs the best of the best and pays them accordingly.
Should a State Govt. be in the business of paying $3.4 million per Km for track – and pay $7 billion for proposed projects for moving coal? Why not let the Coal Mine owners do this?
Oz you are wrong. You had a knee jerk reaction to the word “privatisation”. I repeat what Anna Bligh is doing is a no brainer.
616 – I can’t be bothered pointing out the fundamental problems with privatising revenue generating assets, especially during a financial crisis, at the moment so I’ll take care of them later.
In regards to your last point, I direct you to #594 and #597.
Oz
Govts. are in the business of providing services for the community. If they were selling off passenger train services I would object vehemently.
These revenue generating assets need capital invested in them – for QR Coal $7 billion. Maybe you think a Govt. should be investing in Coal Trains, I do not.
Sorry, Oz. “Bligh has win on asset sell-off”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/07/2591621.htm
No 617
Yes, but as ruawake has said, these revenue-generating assets require frequent capital reinvestment. In NSW, the State Government has simply taken dividends from Sydney Water and the electricity generators/retailers and consistently failed to adequately reinvest to expand capacity and so forth.
Once again, both yours and Quiggin’s arguments are bunk.
Industrial Action ? Ha Bluff – Julia’s IR laws will sort Peter.
I see the Stuffed Zucchinis are smoking that Green stuff again.
THey’re being one trick ponies again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJanypP7iqA
Interesting article on the Airbus crash.
It centres on the idea that the margin for error between flying too fast and too slow can become very, very small at high altitude for big jets; too slow and the plane stalls; too fast and it nosedives.
Add very turbulent weather to the mix and the challenge becomes even greater.
Add the possibility/probability that the plane was feeding incorrect or inconsistent information about air speed to the pilots.
Then you have one scenario for why the crash might have happened.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6446268.ece
Julia Gillard’s response to radical unions.
“I’m Gonna Boogiarize You Baby”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLdRh7qdi_g
GG, according to BBC this afternoon, Labour did so badly in the last Thursday Council election, it lost to Hamas in North Midland.
While not an overwhelming fan of Privatization as an ideology in itself there are a few good reasons why the Queensland Government would gain from asset sales at present.
Standard and Poors slashed the AAA credit rating after the decision was taken not to reduce the infrastructure spending which Standard and Poors demanded be cut.
So the Government has come up with a way to keep the infrastructure spending and regain the AAA rating over the next few years. It was interesting that in a speech by the Reserve Bank Governor a few days ago claimed that economic recovery in Australia is likely from the last quarter of this year, so I’m not sure whether these assets won’t in be sold into a rising market when the sales are finalised over the next few years.
The other main factor at work apart from getting to keep the infrastructure spending and regain the AAA rating is that by not having the AAA rating, borrowings are dearer and it is harder to borrow with a lower rating in the first place.
I doubt whether too many Queenslanders would see increased taxes or cuts in services or freezes to infrastructure spending as a smart move in this economic climate. It appears that asset sales are far preferable to the other possible alternatives at the moment.
Politically, it will cause just as much pressure for the LNP in Queensland as for Labor because the Springborg will be determined to oppose the sales for the same reasons the Greens will, while the Liberals will just sit on the side lines torn between following the Nationals and supporting their natural inclinations to support privatization.
With the Queensland budget now only a matter of weeks away the pressure will be on Langbroek to come up with a budget reply speech which will be stand the scrutiny befitting the times.
Finns,
Is Hamas the new Greens?
I am in favour of privatisation provided it is not a monopoly. Privatisation is good for productivity, innovation and competition. So who opposes privatisation, the Greens, wow what a surprise!
The Greens? At least they do provide political entertainment with some of their loony views
After watching Insiders this morning, the only way the Liberals are going to avoid a RECORD defeat at the next election is if they open up the cheque book and poach Lindsay Tanner with some serious bucks, otherwise Paul Kelly was right, the Liberals are going to be doing serious time in opposition
Speaking of Paul Kelly, I never read the paper he writes for, but I actually think his comments on Insiders are fair and well informed.
Paul Kelly is certainly no dummy. I just realised after a quick squiz at his Wiki entry that he has a Phd as well as a BA and a Dip Ed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kelly_(journalist)
Centre – Tanner was very strong on Insiders. Didn’t bother watching anything after. Any panel with Piers as a member is not one I want to listen to.
Centre wrote:
I can’t wait for the transcript. What’d he say, what’d he say!?
I feel 100% vindicated considering I am on the opposite side as GP.
I can’t see how Pies could qualify make the insiders. His constant extreme positions and toxic style are well known and, hardly useful on a show that is meant to be about intelligent rational analysis of things political.
Bolt qualifies because of intelligence and style, but then is disqualified for taking a consistent anti government position regardless of right or wrong.
Barry Cassidy seems to choke on the world Rudd but at least he is mostly the moderator and not the commentator though he does the interviews.
But Piers is the major embarrassment of the program, even to others on with him. They should drop him permanently, he is a waste of space there.
Having said that I rarely watch or listen to the program now days, nor bother with any of our MSM newspapers unless someone makes reference to something.
Cuppa it was something like -
Cassidy: And now for his views on the week in politics, we are joined by Paul Kelly.
Kelly: The main story for the week were the GDP figures. (In your bestest deepest lowest Kelly voice) This was BIG Barry
Kelly went on to imply that the Libs were going to be in opposition for a long time later in his comments.
The only problem with privatising essential infrastructure is that the profit motive takes over which, in the situation of a monopoly usually means providing the least service at the highest possible charge – to produce the maximum profit.
Thanks Centre. Love it!
Intersting breakdown of labour movement in the USA.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/06/07/business/economy/20090607_metrics.html?ref=business
Having returned from 2 weeks in the UK, I come back to NO RECESSION!! The gods must be smiling on Rudd just when Turnbull had the chance to get some traction. The oppositions arguments about the stimulus have fallen flat and they are left floundering once again.
And by the way Brown is totally finished, just a matter of time- days perhaps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_general_election,_2009
I just don’t get the Lebonese electoral system. It looks as though they have multi-member electorates with different religions running within the same electorate and with seats reserved for each religion. If you live in Beirut 1 and are a Sunni you can’t vote for a Sunni. Arggghhhhh, I must be completely misreading this. How the heck does it work?
It doesn`t work.
I would have thought that the process of phasing out dependence on the grubby coal industry would be easier if its infrastructure was in public hands. Companies would use that infrastucture to make themselves private profits (which probably means a business-as-usual coal industry), whilst publically owned assets are more likely to be used for the public good.
Tommy-1st&Best
Well I realize they have some pretty serious domestic political problems but how does the Lebonese electoral system ensure that the proportion of people from each religion is as it is meant to be?
Iranian presidential elections soon. From my limited knowledge 1st term presidents there tend to get re-elected, like in the US, so I suspect that that big-mouth Ahmadinejad should get back in. But the opinion polls on Wiki suggest that Mir-Hossein Mousavi (on the more conservative side of the Reform wing of the Iranian political spectrum) may also have a chance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_reform_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehdi_Karroubi
I hope Mehdi Karroubi wins though – he’ll stick it to the Guardianship Council ratbags. His economic policy is interesting. Has such an idea ever been done before anywhere in the world?
“Change” – What an original slogan!
All those different religions, ethnicities and languages plus being right next door to Israel, it is no wonder Lebonon has had such strife.
Federer you beauty!!!
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/bartlett/2009/06/03/new-qld-govt-plan-to-maximise-the-amount-of-coal-that-qld-can-export-to-the-world/#comments
In another part of the Crikey world Bartlett discusses the QLD coal stuff.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2009/797/41020
Chavez nationalizes some BHP stuff.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2009/797/41027
CC science/ Coal industry.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2009/797/41028
On Aussie agricultural emmissions/ Kangaroo meat
The weekend Australian Financial Review has a great picture of Rudd dodging the recession bullet. Should blow it up poster size.
648
Yep, Chavez has been giving to the poor and taking from the rich. Naturally, the poor love it and the rich hate it. There are more poor than rich, so his popularity rating remains quite high.
The questions not addressed are:
(1) ‘How long will this work?’
(2) ‘What is the balance between capital inflows and outflows?’
(3) “What is the rate of internal capital formation?’
My guesses are:
(1) It will last as long as the current infrastructure lasts and as long as he has got some stuff to flog to the outside world.
(2) That capital is POQing as fast as it can disengage; that anybody with any get-up- and-go is getting up and going; and that, because of sovereign risk, external borrowings by Chavez, and foreign investiment inflows, will have huge risk premiums attached, if they can be got at all.
(3) Because Chavez is shovelling money out to the poor who are spending it on consumption, the internal rate of capital formation is likely to be very, very low. Profit? Savings? Re-investment in capital items? Pah!
Will it all end in grief?
633 [I feel 100% vindicated considering I am on the opposite side as GP.]
Unfortunately, Oz it could also be seen as total agreement with the position of Springborg and the Queensland National Party. As usual there is a chasm between where the ex Liberals and the ex Nationals stand on this issue and once again the Greens have popped up alongside the Nationals. Funny how that dynamic seems to occur more regularly these days in Queensland.
The only complaint about privatization we have heard from the Queensland Liberals so far is that nobody told them that this was a live issue. It is the Nationals running off the backwash of Green discontent where the opposition will be loudest.
Recently we have seen the Greens/Nations in lockstep over the Children’s Hospital construction, the Traveston Crossing Dam, the mining of coal on food-growing land, and now the privatization issue; it is starting to form a very convenient and cosy pattern of like-mindedness.
I’m sure Springborg sitting as Deputy LNP leader will soon be moved by the anti privatization grassroots campaign of the Greens to elbow Langbroek out of the way and grasp back the Leadership in time to be a four time loser as Leader of the Queensland Opposition. Springborg will be reading the Opposition Leaders budget reply speech more closely than anyone this year.
One side of Queensland politics was always going to split over this issue. Labor was the one the press gallery was expecting to buckle but that didn’t happen yesterday. So the pressure has moved to the other side to come up with their solution as to how they would mend Queensland’s budgetary weakness bought on by a $15 Billion drop in revenue since the Global Financial crisis began.
Springborg denies that there ever was a GFC so it is difficult to imagine what his solution might be.
Generic Person
Posted Sunday, June 7, 2009 at 7:02 pm | Permalink
Once again GP prattled:
Working in the private sector doesn’t improve a managers ability. And before anyone prattles on about under investment in the public sector it might be an idea to consider which sector is investing now, which sector is keeping the economy out of the toilet, and which sector build these assets in the first place.
(Mind you the NSW government seems to have an uncanny ability to miss manage things, what is it about that state that prevents them from having a long term plan.)
There are good arguments to privatize assets, but poor management in the public sector is not one of them.
The good arguments are: Governments need to invest in things the private sector is not capable of dealing with. Structures become more difficult to manage the larger they get. It really pays to palm things that they have got working well off to the private sector, new things can be done. The governments gets back a large percentage of the profit of the sold off entity, anyway, it’s called tax, and generally speaking the private sector is competent enough to keep things running without too many stuff ups; and if they do screw up; and behave in a manner that is not in the national interest you can either.
a) Buy it back ( Can’t think of an example)
b) Build a competing company ( Testra, broadband)
A debt rating agency reducing the rating of a asset rich, taxing enterprise, which is what the Qld government is, reflect more on the rating agency than the enterprise. Queensland debt is more risky than a bunch of securitised sub prime morgages. Ya right.
It makes absolute sense to sell assets to the private sector at inflated prices so other assets can be built, which is what the Victorian government did. It also makes sense to consider asset values long term. Is coal hauling going to be a long term thing? The private sector seems to love destroying capital, it’s a bit sad when the Government has to step in a prop the incompetants up as we have seen over the last twelve months, but anyway.
The question for Qld is, does it make sense to sell assets at a fair value, the answer is probable yes.
Fielding wants solar flare theory investigated
http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2009/06/08/2591807.htm
I think this is actually good for the government. If Fielding is seen as a crackpot by the general electorate (and not just us poll bludgers that are already aware of it!) it will make it harder for Turnbull to vote down any CC legislation. If Turnbull is seen as being on the same side as Fielding it will appear as though Turnbull is associating with crackpots and denialists.
Tom
-including some in his own party
Does he think solar flares cause homosexuality?
From the OZ. I thought the same question was asked back in Eureka Stockade of 1854?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22073824-5013404,00.html
Naturally, as a village idiot, we still dont know the answer.
The Heyson M
As convoluted as the voting arrangement is, there has been a a gracious acceptance of defeat in Lebanon. Will this help or hinder Barack’s drive to peace? B*gg*red if I know …
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3727705,00.html
Big speech coming up from Yahoo next week. Could this be a breakthough?
Forgive me for being naive, but might not the overwhelming numbers per capita of swine flu infections have something to do with the Brumby government’s somewhat lackadasical attitude towards the spread of the virus? He was bloviating the other day about panic merchants in other states (and now it seemsseveral SE Asian nations have joined them), saying something about how Victorian testing was better than other states and that’s why there appeared to be more cases there. But four times as many cases as the rest of the country combined? The official explanation iseems to be getting slightly ridiculous.
[Victoria world’s worst for Swime Flu
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25603085-5018988,00.html
Hope nobody has backed Queensland to win the State of Origin series this year as it appears swine flu might knock the whole competition out.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25603092-10389,00.html
If I give him some cotton wool, will he make me one??
Centre if you are there? Please I need another prayer, Bunnies and Swannies GOT floggings 2 weeks in a row now Heeeeelp Meeee!!!
Had to laugh at last night’s news showing Julie Bishop talking about how Labor should be promoting female talent instead of jobs for the boys. The only reason she isn’t on the backbenches is because she’s a woman. Just mentioning her and talent in the same breath outa be a crime
Do we get an Essential Poll today seeing as it’s a public hol?
It is a crime and you are guilty of it!! Wash your mouth out with soap and say 3 hail marys and may god forgive you!!
Tom.
Tom, I’ll say the Hail Mary’s only if they’ll help my footy teams
Oh almost forgot, Paul Bonjurono on morning news said the pressure is on Turnbull now to get rid of some of his deadwood and do a shuffle of his own,
vera,
Good in theory, but who would be left?
Glenn Milne profers the same prediction in this remarkably pro Government assessment of the re-shuffle. Perhaps he now has some snouts on the inside of the Ministry?
“Look towards wholesale change on the Liberal side in the not too distant future. The extent of Rudd’s portfolio changes demands it in any case. Turnbull has been given an opportunity not to be wasted”.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25601205-7583,00.html
Gusface
Steve went to a climate chage conference last Tuesday and discovered information that Australian scientists don’t know about. How lucky are we that he went?! We would never have known the REAL cause of climate change – solar flares, oh yeah! And he’s concerned that the scientists he wants to talk to abuot it aren’t going to approach the issue ‘on a scientific basis’. What??
This, by god, is a representative of others, in a decision-making forum …
“Now I’m an engineer” (yesterday I was an idiot)
Someone needs to ‘get to the bottom’ alright – with a broom handle.
JV,
“Someone needs to ‘get to the bottom’ alright – with a broom handle”.
Nah, you’d enjoy that too much!
The thing is Turnbull ought to have done this before Rudd moved on his Front Bench…once again he is playing follow the leader.
Ins
Bruce Billson
Scott Morrison
Tony Smith
Mitch Fifield
Outs
Coonan
Johnston
Baldwin
Margaret May
The ‘climate change’ conference Steve attended was organised by the Heartland Institute, which has ‘has received $676,500 from ExxonMobil since 1998.’
This is the sorrt of thing they say:
This is similar to the line being run by opponents of an emisisons strategy in parliament. Expect similar from Steve between now and the vote. He’s always been a lost cause on the issue, but this makes it official.
“The best strategy to pursue is one of ‘no regrets’.”]
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=41
GG – It may be the queens’ birthday, but I’m not going that far in celebration with them.
Jaundiced
The Heartland Institute is in much the same mould as the Dsicovery Institute. They simply aim to muddy the waters and use ‘doubt’ and ‘uncertainty’ as the weapon of choice.
I am so glad Steve Fielding has run with this, it will show him to be an absolute goose!
JV@648
That sounds really ominous
SNIP: See article 2 of comment moderation guidelines – The Management.
I thought that any doubt in relation to that had already been well and truly resolved.
This is just confirmation!
polyquats
It did to me at first too, but I think he is just referring to the fact that the political balance in Lebanon will stay the same as before the election – hope he meant that anyway!
By the way, I wondered why the streets and the medical centre in Punchbowl were deserted when I drove through yesterday:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124424470043690515.html
Fairfax questioning News Greens credentials. Sour grapes or fair comment?
http://business.theage.com.au/business/how-the-carbon-lobby-blackens-media-coverage-20090605-byjv.html
No 672
I agree with that.
I bet this person avidly checks their horoscope in every media outlet in the country every morning so as to have a variety of instruction in how to get through the day.
In total confusion and bewilderment, I would have thought.
And, these people vote!
We have know all along that Fielding would block the ETS that’s why us hacks have said the only way any scheme will get up is wilth Lib support
No 679
The problem with that it paints scepticism as bad or inherently evil or biased. The fact of the matter is that science without scepticism isn’t science at all.
and the only format of lib support will be with either with the threat of a DD or a DD itself
644
That economic plan is capitalist socialism!
Guess the thing here is also the shakey foundation of turnbulls “leadership”. His support was pretty well baseline and wouldn’t think he could go out of his way to get people offside.
Maybe the position becomes clearer after pre-selection for higgins is decided.
Wattles are blooming in our street… three months ahead of schedule.
Greensborough
It reads fair to me (not that that means much!). Various people have noticed some ludicrous articles in The Australian – not sure if you’ve heard of the Deltoid blog? He’s documented the stupidity ad nauseum, calling it The Australian’s war on science. It does seem that Newscorp seems to publish far more stupidity than other media.
GP #683
No it doesn’t. The reference in the article linked by GG is to the total lack of critical analysis by the reporters on The Australian when they repeatedly parrot Minerals Council propaganda.
GP
Their sceptism isn’t real, that’s the problem. They are selectively sceptical. They promote ideas that are ludicrous, simply because they contradict AGW theory.
They use the same tactics as the Discovery institute with their promotion of ‘Intelligent Design’.
“The fact of the matter is that science without scepticism isn’t science at all.”
This is true, but what makes you think it is missing? There is a difference between scientific scepticism and ideological agendas
No 689
Whilst I’m not a sceptic, I’m firmly of the view that the climate change zealots have essentially transformed the science into an ideological debate by virtue of their hysterical screaming on the issue.
See, I told you Fielding thinks Australians are stupid. He also thinks that the Labor Government and the Greens are stupid too. It seems as though Plimer’s argument really hit a button with Fielding.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25601203-7583,00.html
I think you will find Steve that they “are” paying attention and no Steve, you do not represent me!
No 691
Fielding is a bastion of idiocy most of the time, but he is right to criticise the lack of balanced coverage.
Strangely enough, I noticed some varieties of wattle starting to bud prior to flowering about three weeks ago during a trip to north Queensland. They usually only do this in spring, late August-early September.
I wonder what Steve Fielding makes of this. Maybe he should ask his mates in the US. It could be “solar flares”?
GP
“Hysterical screaming” do you have an example of this?
The ‘debate’ over global warming happened largely during the 70s and early 80s. It happened in the scientific literature. Once it was brought to public attention various lobby groups then began trying to dismantle the theory. There is no pro-AGW agenda, there is a pretty solid anti-AGW agenda however. Very similar to the tobacco lobby, DDT lobby, asbestos lobby, Intelligent Design lobby etc. These groups use the same tactics, they attempt to spread doubt where none really exists.
GP
“but he is right to criticise the lack of balanced coverage.”
What has ‘balance’ got to do with anything? In what way would ‘balance’ improve the debate?
GP,
I think the argument is that Rupert’s media are pro scepticism and do not give the balance you are demanding.
No 694
Yes, Bob Brown saying that there will be “apocalyptic” global warming without economy-killing emissions cuts.
Just one of many examples.
GP
The liberal where on the wrong side of the “debt being used to prop up an economy” debate, and there on the wrong side of the climate change debate. Politically the latter is a greater danger, nature doesn’t stop for any ideological debate.
At least the economy is a man made thing and emotion plays a part.
GP
“Yes, Bob Brown saying that there will be “apocalyptic” global warming without economy-killing emissions cuts.”
Now that is not hysterical screaming is it? There was no hysteria or screaming invloved.
Global warming will be bad, that’s why people want to take action. That’s why it has become an issue.
So not only do we spend $75,000 a year to keep the rubbish of society locked up, we also pay for them to have sex:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25604033-12377,00.html
GP – The best science is that with ‘businees as usual’ we will have 750ppm by the end of the century. raising the average temperatuere by 5 degrees.. The relatively conservative economic and reporte to the British government DSir Nicholas Stern puts it like this from the IPCC reports:
As you can see, it’s all about the speed of the change. Cioncidence that it is happening so quickly after 200 years of concerted fossil fuel emission? I don’t thnink so, but hang on I’ll just ask Steve and his oil company institute in the US.
Spoken like a true hard-right conservative.
Conjugal visits, big whoop. Slow pollbludger day?
Now THIS is disgusting…
The Advertiser headline on their front page is “Jail allows sex visits for gay couples” which links to http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25604033-5005962,00.html
How do gay people come in to this debate? News Ltd need to stop attention grabbing headlines that makes hard-right conservatives jump in anger. Gay or not, that’s not the issue, paid conjugal visits are.
Bloody tory media.
(Apologies for the long-format and my typos in 701 – I hit the button early, but it is worth the read.)
I’ve linked the latest Stern update lecture before, but for anyone else interested:
http://www.atypon-link.com/AEAP/doi/pdf/10.1257/aer.98.2.1?cookieSet=1
Welcome to the Eocene period revisited. Half the species gone, and alligators at the north pole. Should be fun.
No 702
Conjugal visits, gay or straight, are an obscenity that should be stopped.
No 703
There was nothing anti-gay in the article.
No 701
JV, I’m certainly not advocating for “business as usual”.
GP – What is the best purpose for gaols from society’s perspective? To punish, bastardise and damage people who overwhelmingly comprise mentally challenged and/or substance addicted indivuals further, or to make inmates better citizens less likely to harm others on release by encouraging good behaviour?
Can conjugal visits assist in this aim? The experts suggest they can. So what’s the problem – how does it hurt anyone?
They’ve committed a crime for which they’ve been imprisoned. As such, they’ve surrendered their right to engage in normal human activity. I would have thought that’s plainly obvious.
GP #707
That’s a relief. Very good – one step at a time, that’s the boy, you can do it.
For myself, I dislike cold, and I like alligators, but that’s the only good I see in BAU (as the climate researchers put it)
709
What about remandees?
They have not been sentenced to a term of imprisonment.
So you are advocating sexual acts amongst fellow pisoners- either consensual or not – which would be the result of of banning conjugal visits.
No 711
That would depend on the seriousness of the charges against them.
No but the headline was on the main Advertiser page.
“Jail allows sex visits for gay couples”
No, gay and straight couples. Thus, why mention gay or straight at all? Because it’s a vein-popping headline for tory readers.
No 710
No need to be patronising. I’ve been advocating solar and nuclear for a while now.
So you do not believe in innocent until proven guilty for those charged with serious crimes then?
No 714
What was “vein-popping” for me, as a “tory” reader, was the fact that prisons allowed this sort of activity at all – NOT that it allowed homosexual couples to get in on the action as well.
No 716
Visitation rights should be determined by the judge, similar to bail cases.
You fail to answer the question.
“Jail allows sex visits for gay couples”
How is that headline not singling out gay as opposed to straight?
The headline is written as if it is somehow worse that the jail allows gay conjugal visits as opposed to straight conjugal visits.
It’s singling them out for the purposes of highlighting an advancement in gay rights. You should be happy, since you’re gay yourself. I really don’t see why it is necessary to get so hung up on the headline.
GP [No need to be patronising. I’ve been advocating solar and nuclear for a while now.]
Apologies. Solar and nuclear won’t be enough on their own do the trick, though.
Oh come now. It was designed to create maximum outrage in the hard-right tories. It was for gay and straight prisoners, thus all prisoners as opposed to a section of prisoners. Sexual orientation should not come in to the headline as the rights will apply to all prisoners, not just a section of prisoners.
At least you admit that much.
Solar will (with some Geothermal and wind help).
No 723
You’re not offering yourself to me are you?
Cronulla Sharks CEO resigns after bashing woman:
http://www.leaguehq.com.au/articles/2009/06/08/1244313073369.html
As a green, you obviously support shutting down our minerals industry which is something I will not support.
Again you avoid the rest of what I said.
But to answer you question – no, I don’t offer myself to people I haven’t seen before. But typically tories are ugly so the chances are no.
Hajnal Ban is stunning – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ban.JPG. I cannot offer comment on the handsomeness or otherwise of conservative men, however.
Very bad night and day for British Labour Party:
* lost to Hamas in Midland
* the British Looney Right won: BNP secures two European seats
* came second to the Tories in Wales
* Carla Bruni did very well in France.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jUoLuVg7TKA12vH-aUSKVaOUxaDw
* A song for Flash Gordon: If you gotta go, you better go now, go now, go now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLgdcGEqgcw
GP – Sorry, I’m not a green, although I am a strong supporter of the envionment. No mining industry will need to ‘close down’ in order to reach the targets. Storing the carbon emissions is part of the answer. If storage works (as it does already in Germany and other Euro states) then the Aus coal industry will actually expand up to 2050 and beyond on the Treasury modelling.
I think Con te Partiro is a suitable death march for Gordy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbN0g8-zbdY
The gross imbecility of Labour is the only reason why people turn to the one-nation type lunatics.
Fielding certainly thinks so!
What a complete dill.
Glad there’s been such a quick responce:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/08/2592235.htm?section=justin
No need to wait till you meet Penny, Steve. Have a look at this chart:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/recent-warming-but-no-trend-in-galactic-cosmic-rays/
She did. Here she is with Sarkozy, yesterday: http://static.stuff.co.nz/1244404729/385/2481385.jpg
Sort of correct 734.
It is New Labour ignoring the safe Labour sets. Also the Tory collapse in the North in the 1990`s didn`t help.
http://www.makemyvotecount.org.uk/blog/archives/2009/06/electoral_strat.html
People interested in NSW politics -
I’ve started a blog at http://macquariestreet.wordpress.com/ on the subject and you should check it out.
Doesn’t matter if you’re Labor/Liberal/Green/whatever, it doesn’t have an ideological slant and simply seeks to provide information and analysis as to what is going on in NSW.
No 739
Left my first comment.
There isn’t a single male MP in Australia that I find attractive off the top of my head.
But if Don Dunstan were alive i’d do him simply out of bragging rights
740
It’s a good one.
bob, Greg Combet is an absolute spunk. I’d like to slap him between two slices of multigrain, add a bit of honey and eat him up.
No 743
ROFLMAO!
739
I too have left my first comment.
Ewwww!
Umm, thinking about it, maybe Mark Arbib if I was reeeeeeally drunk and desperate. But he’d be the bottom.
Mark Arbib? Is that a joke? He looks like a bloody light bulb.
I’m not sure he’d enjoy the unauthorised rear entry.
LOL too funny.
Righto you blokes, that’ll do! One more crack like those and I’m off.
This bloke’s a bit of all right too. Not quite sandwich material, but worth considering for a snack.
http://www.alp.org.au/people/clare_jason.php
Just watch how he lights up when you hit the switch!
Be more tolerant!
http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/a/australia/candidates1.shtml
I’d do Sandy Biar…
In fact there’s a few minor party candidates i’d do… pity the major parties don’t hold any male eye candy…
I’m not a bloke – I’m a girl – so I’m not really into cracks.
http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/a/australia/candidates1.shtml
Daniel Pech isn’t bad either…
Same with Gregory Roy
#733, GP, yes, it’s time to get nostalgic. This will be more to your liking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBdCO5S0_kI
No 759
Hehe. The person who made that is obviously misguided.
Finns,
After thinking about it, this is a better epitaph for Unca Howie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9vKWLgZzo
He’s looking at you, kid.
GG, never knew Linda got a pair such great legs
I just realised… am I the only one on this forum that likes guys? We have straight men and a lesbian, but I can’t seem to recall any gay men or straight girls…….
Adam?
Silly me. Ok, Adam aside?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/08/2592384.htm?section=justin
Oops
I like boys. Especially these ones …
http://www.abc.net.au/news/photos/2007/10/25/2070288.htm
Adventurous action, haha.
I remember he had a fundraising exercise a few months ago by selling some photographs of his.
Oh dear… that’s not good news now is it?
Worst case scenario, Brown loses his seat, a Green is nominated to replace him, and Brown goes top of the Green Senate ticket at the next election.
#767, is that now a case of the Greens in the red over Brown, while GG is in tickle pink?
http://naa16.naa.gov.au/rs_images/lun3/images/sparimg3_images/lun6/images/IMAGINE14/ph001/large/7802078_0001.jpg
He reminds me too much of Bob Brown… too ugly.
Finns,
Certainly seems like a blue to me.
I doubt that Bob Brown will be unable to prevent bankrupcy – he will get the money somehow.
But its a shame that someone can be in this position for fighting for what he believes is correct (irrespective of the issue).
Alright, bob and marktwain can we get back to talking about politics!!???
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Like Tanya Plibersek
I’d turn for Tanya.
Greens for Sydney!
So, Ruawake, it’s ok in your view for someone to mount an action based on a principle, no matter what the principle, and expect the unfortunate victim of his action to bear the cost if the action fails?
Yes, Tanya’s in real big trouble in Sydney.
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2007/guide/sydn.htm
Not.
If Bob Brown was not funded by Swift Parrot fanatics to mount his campaign it would not have ended in him being personally liable for Forestry Tasmania’s costs.
The shame is that people can fund things like this without liability. That was my point, sorry I did not express it well.
But I have to listen to guys go on about hot girls?
There is no equality.
Why not, it’s called Puting Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
And in the stuffed Zucchini’s case it’s sweet justice as it proves that when push comes to shove, very few of put in practice, what Bob Brown did.
Yeah getting 49% of the primary; she must be losing a lot of sleep at night
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25604816-421,00.html
Barnett calling for the GST to be lifted from 10%
779
I did not say that the Greens would win just that I want them to win.
“After 41 years in power Gabon’s President Bongo has died. Supporters say he marched to the beat of a different drummer” – http://www.fark.com/
And calling for a tax on 4WD’s, which would REALLY go down in his electorate considering a lot of his constituates drive said vehicles and hardly ever go off road with them
I thought the Libs were all about cutting taxes, and not funding health/education/infrastructure/anything else?
Yeah, at the height of Labor’s popularity.
I knew it! John Howard was right; once the ALP controlled the commonwealth and all the states it was bound to happen…. oh wait a sec…
I do like his increse in tax on 4WD idea though.
Although if the Greens got 3% more and the Libs 3% less then it becomes a Labor versus Green contest.
http://results.aec.gov.au/13745/Website/HouseDivisionDop-13745-149.htm
I agree that it is practically impossible to defeat a candidate with 49% (like Tanner) or 48% (like Plibersek).
What it the highest primary vote on which someone has been defeated?
Yes, a bit of a double standard here, though I’m not interested in any opinions about hot chics or hot guys and associated liaisons, romances, etc
I mean, for example, what’s with the fixation on Sayles and Long?
Well ok, let’s go back to 2004.
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2004/guide/sydn.htm
Of interest, in 2004 the Greens got 21.6% of the Primary. In 2007 they got 20.7%. Yep real surge of momentum there.
As Homer would says: If ifs and buts were candy and nuts… err how does the rest of that thing go”.
The margin between second and third place in Grayndler is only 2.03%. Probable Labor versus Greens margin of around 10-12% next election.
795
Sometime a parties vote goes up sometimes it goes down. Mostly the Greens vote goes up.
796
I was talking about next time.
Albo got 55%+ Primary vote in Grayndler – Tom you are being silly.
Yeah Labor got a primary swing toward them from the Greens and Libs – the height of Labor’s popularity.
Of course it played out the opposite in Melbourne, a swing away from the Libs to Labor, but also a swing to the Greens.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens when Labor loses its popularity.
Thats what happens when the Greens win a By-Election and they think all their Christmasses have come at once.
799
I am not saying that the Greens are going to win in next time but that they are probably going to come second. A primary vote of 55+% does not stop the Greens coming second. If the Greens came second, and the Libs preferenced them, then Labor would get about 20% of the Libs` preferences. About 20% of about 20% is about 4%. Labor`s three candidate preferred was 56%. Add 4% and you get 60%.
No silliness there.
Don`t you want the Libs in third place?
When that happens – in the distant future. The Libs will form Govt.
Tom tfab
To win a seat at a Federal Election for the HoR you need 50%+1 vote. Any amount of arithemetical gymnastics does not change this.
Yes but will Labor lose their strong seats that have a heavy left vote?
803
Bob 1234 is talking about what will happen in Melbourne, Sydney, Grayndler, etc. and I agrre it will be interesting.
Looks like hubris on Brown’s part to think he’d win the case and if he’s stupid enough to enter into legal action without the financial means to pay for costs he’s a fool that should lose his Senate seat.
Couldnt have happened to someone more deserving…cept maybe Fielding.
804
I am not saying that the Greens will win Grayndler. I am saying that they will probably come SECOND AS OPPOSED TO THIRD with a 10-12% margin in Labors favour. Second requires less than 50%.
In seats with od numbers of formal votes, only 50% + half a vote is needed (this provides advantage to no party).
Glen
My opinion is that BB could not have undertaken the legal action as a private individual, he managed to mount his action with donations.
Now that he has to pay costs it is him, as an individual, that has to pay them. There should be a mechanism, in these kind of cases, where anyone who donates to the action is also liable for any potential costs.
So? Do you get points for coming second?
Well looks like the Greens will be needing a new leader
LOL
The only thing I have seen since the election in 2007 is that it has gone “UP”.
The only thing I can see with Plibersek. is that at each election her primary and 2PP vote keeps increasing.
Could be a long, long, wait!
Short answer: NO!
Their muddled head thinking assumes that those seats mentioned will turn Green like Fremantle did.
Well, Fremantle is a fluke.
It looks as though the Greens supporters here have been at the “red cordial” again.
Hey, wakey, wakey!
810
It is easier to win from second than third. Both for vote position and public perception reasons.
Scorpio let them hold onto something, anything right now considering Bob Brown’s career will be finished shortly
Wow… amazing
Tom
The only way to win is from first. Labor can do it, Libs and Nats can do it, Independents can do it.
Greens. ? Why not ? (Please refrain from Senate Crud
)
This may be true, but at the moment there’s definitely no reason to get your hopes up yet. I think there’s a good chance the Greens will win another HoR seat, probably at a by-election, but a general election win isn’t really something you’d bet on in the near future.
Because we have an entrenched party system that’s very hard for anyone to break into. The Greens are probably the best shot (in a handful of seats), but will never be front runners to win seats.
812
The Labor vote (primary and TPP) in Sydney may go up next time but it is likely to go down again after that as Labor goes on in government and annoys people. The primary vote will not swing wildly but TPP will go down significantly if the Greens overtake Labor and the Liberals preference them.
Yeah, and a fat lot of good it will do them.
Still, they could always get to know Bob Katter better although they might not consider that to be much of a benefit!
821
The Greens are frontrunners for Fremantle at the next WA state election. When Labors popularity goes down in Victoria (the Labor TPP in 2006 was 55% so yes Labor popularity will go down at some point), then they will be frontrunners for the Melbourne and maybe Richmond and Brunswick.
823
A single seat can be very useful in a hung parliament.
We have this discussion way too often.
I think Tom is the Bree of the Greens.
Tom, what I mean is that The Greens will never be able to be ’safe’ in seats the way other parties are.
For instance, it would be quite easy to lose Fremantle at the next WA state election, although the chances of retaining it are decent.
I think it’s too early to be making such statements. Increased chances maybe, but they wouldn’t be ‘frontrunners’.
Thinking is not something you are good at then.
Today Fremantle, tomorrow the world! Now where have I heard that before? I believe the condition is sometimes referred to as delusions of grandeur.
Tom.
Tom, won’t happen. The best that the Greens can hope for is to maintain the status quo after the next election when they should pick up a couple of extra seats in the Senate where they can have some influence.
The house of Reps is another thing altogether. How much influence do the few independents exercise there now? Short answer; None! How much would a Greens Member exercise? Same answer!
They have every chance of following the Democrats if they do not use their current opportunities wisely.
828
If Labor losses 4% to the Libs and 5% to the Greens in polling the the Greens would likely be frontrunners in Melbourne as the margin is only 2%.
Tell me about it. We know we’re right, people like Frank and GG think they’re right, nobody’s opinion changes, and we waste pages and pages of typing when they won’t listen to us anyway. Yawn.
And that can’t happen to the beloved Greens. Spare me. It can and will, especially if you lot overplay your hand over the ETS.
When was the last time we had a hung parliament?
And when Bob departs
Fighting it out for relevance with three other independents could be useful yes?
I would love to know the odds for a hung parliament in the next 20 years or so. Won’t happen!
Well when the Stuffed Zucchinis resort to Hubris when praising their beloved party…..
Just like it happened to One Nation, and The Democrats.
831
I meant Greens overtake the Liberals and the Liberals preference them.
The Greens have overtake the Liberals in federal Melbourne, state Melbourne, Richmond, Brunswick and Northcote. The last 4 of those was in 2002 and they stayed ahead in 2006.
A Greens MP in the House may well become party leader and get more public profile than a single independent.
I thought the Greens didn’t believe in a single leader and preferred it being shared around like Communion Wine ?
Are you serious? All the Greens power is in the Senate. An MP would be a token. You’ve had a few too many beers today mate…
837
Every seat taken off a major party increases the chance of a hung parliament in a close election.
So it’s allright for him to tout for a ‘gift’ of $240,000 to save his skin but he want’s Rudd sell his ute and give the money ($4000) to charity (even though Rudd doesn’t own it and it’s only a loaner)
This was Brown last week
Talk about double standards
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25605522-29277,00.html
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/give-rudd-car-to-charity-greens-leader-20090605-by0e.html
In Saturday’s A2 section there was an article by Gideon Haigh re the rise and fall of the Democrats following him getting access to the Democrat archives. I’ve been unable to find it on their site for posting.
Pity, as it would be a most useful reality check for the Greens supporters here.
838
One Nation was a one election wonder. A mainly protest vote.
A large number of factors did the Democrats in.
The Greens are not a one election wonder or mainly protest vote and the factors that did in the Democrats mostly don`t apply to them.
At the next election there will be a small swing to Labor in the Reps. In the Senate the swing will be larger, although the Greens will end up with a similar number of seats (due to swill unrepresentation).
X and his possible Y partner will be irrelevant as Labor and Greens will have a majority in the Senate.
The Libs will eventually realise that they are in Opposition and will stop the just say no policy – they will pass all legislation. Thus making the Greens irrelevant.
The Greens will look back at the 2007 election and yearn for an 8% primary – the good old days.
In the year 2026, the greens eventually get a member in the house of Reps with the casting vote in a hung parliament.
Yeah, right! In the meantime, what a loss in opportunity to actually shape some policy and implementation!
Bulldust – a lot of Green supporters are former ALP people who want to protest about the ALP, but don’t want to vote Liberal
.
And response from Vera.
Yep, this is the height of Hypocrisy from the Zucchini Party.
840 and 841
Bob Brown is the leadr and Christine Milne is deputy.
In the House an MP can ask questions of the PM and more senior ministers than are in the Senate and there is more chance of said question on the news and 7:30 and current affairs programs.
I have had no alcohol today.
Vera, I think you got him there.
vera,
Great gotcha. I wonder what these mystery donors will get in return for helping Bob Brown out on this personal debt he has accrued. If we had a party of integrity in Parliament he’d never get away with something as tawdry as this.
Brown will probably get a donation from big Coal. After all, he has been so helpful to them by prosecuting the Greens irresponsible position on the ETS.
You should.
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/22/5526?etoc
850
Brown and the Greens would never take donation from big (or small ) coal. The Greens don`t take donation from companies.
Keep on believing that and you will quickly see how hubris like you lot are demonstrating right now (which surprisingly applied to the Democrats & One Nation) can just as quickly bring you lot undone too!
But they do from the CFMEU
http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.au/Returns/10/P2589.pdf
The Greens don’t mind the odd $40,000 from the CMFEU though
Hmm, does it include Companies like this one ?
http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.au/Donor.aspx?SubmissionID=9&ClientID=36313
Do you watch QT?
Answer me this. How many questions have the Independents asked the PM and Senior Ministers so far in this Parliament?
How many do you think they will be able to ask before the polls are called for the next?
How many of those questions have you seen so far featured on news and 7:30 and current affairs programs?
Take your time now!
It’s fun pruning Green Shrubbery isn’t it Vera ?
Ouch! Bit of fire in the belly today Vera. Keep ‘em coming.
You have absolutely no I idea what you are talking about
Must be ganga then
855
I believe that was from the construction division because of the Greens opposition to the ABCC.
Personally I think that donation should only be allowed from voters. Donations from corporations are bribery or a misuse of corporate funds.
A bit like shooting fish in a very small barrel though.
Frank, you just beat me, (got my CFMEU arse about
)
Scorpio,
Is that a Greens pork barrel?
No, the “to#u” one!
Stand by for Rebecca and the other Heavy Artillery to come to Tom The First’s Defence
Hmm, found a couple of interesting personal donations to the NSW Greens.
http://periodicdisclosures.aec.gov.au/ReceiptsEntityPartyList.aspx?SubmissionID=9&ClientID=343&ClientTyCo=P
You guys know what the problem is? I’ll tell you what the problem is. The problem is, that the Liberal Party is such a feeble opposition that we are reduced to fighting between ourselves to get any exercise.
Fulvio, you may well be on to something
Of course, the Greens also got donations from the ETU at the last election.
I would expect the Union movement to continue to support a party that actually cares about workers and workers rights rather than a party whose goal in industrial relations is to be better than the Liberals “on aggregate”.
Compare Kevin Rudd’s legal attempt to stop a second runway at Brisbane Airport to Bob Brown’s attempt to stop logging int the Wielangta Forest.
Kev did not ask for donations, Bob did. Kev realised he lost at the Federal Court ruling an coughed up his hundred grand. Bob asked for more donations to try for a High Court ruling and failed.
Now Bob wants a quarter of a million bucks to save him from selling his house, when his party is 60 grand in debt.
I think Bob will be mute on political donations for the rest of his career.
??? So the ALP (and Tanner) is now suffering a 9% swing??!!
Huh…?
Please explain?
Feeble? I think you give the Libs too much credit.A disorientated amoeba would show more spunk (and intelligence)
Vera,
From that Age article.
“Prime Minister Kevin Rudd would be wise to give his gifted car to charity and cap the value of personal gifts to MPs at a couple of hundred dollars, Australian Greens leader Bob Brown says”.
My oh my, the hypocrisy. Will this be known as “Brown Paper Bag Gate”.
Why not make it 30% or 40%. Lots of fantasy on PB this evening.
So don’t take the bait.
Save the rest of us having to scroll through pages looking for posts on something other than Freemantle and tofu.
Well the Zucchini Party are living in a World of Make Beiieve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sCbTI0BrQM
Income – Expenditure = Debt.
Especially when they lay said Bait about them being the Greartest thing since Sliced Bread
What are these figures and where did they come from?
One of the comments on the news.com.au sotry on Brwon:
Yep; all Rudd’s fault!
Luke
To be more precise.
Total Receipts: $1,965,185.00
Total Payments: $1,996,044.00
Total Debts: $58,675.00
From the AEC.
Whilst accepting that Bob Brown has to pay legal fees (you take that risk when you launch legal action) I don’t understand why the Tasmanian government has given him a deadline of June 29th and are then threatening bankruptcy. They have nothing to gain, economically, from that.
Most of the time the court can come to some kind of arrangement where they payments are staggered. It smacks of political opportunism.
Of course I don’t expect the Labor rusted on’s here salivating at the thought of a Brown-free parliament to understand that.
Frank, what is supposedly “interesting” about those donations? The NSW Greens have a policy of not accepting donations from corporations or organisations. It differs state by state but I think the common feature is no donations from corporations.
Oz
I think the judgement on costs was May last year. Giving Bob a year to find the dough.
NSW Labor -
Receipts: $22,737,913.46
Payments: $24,724,301.28
Debt: $4,658,002.67
http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/02/01/political-donations-the-bald-figures/
Good try.
They are either very well off individuals, or these “personal” donations may well be desgin to bypass the so called Greens “No Corporations” rule – or is it another case of double standards ?
Since the Australian Greens were formed as a federal and federated party in time for the 1996 election, their Senate vote has increased at all five elections. This is the only Australian political party that can claim their vote has increased at the past five elections, and the only one that has never had a swing against them.
Probably a Liberal staffer
But there are no Labor Leaders currently being subject to paying legal costs
Hmm baseless conjecture and accusations of fraud. I wouldn’t have expected that from Frank.
I’m with you Oz – surely there’s something that can be done.
Also this all comes from an appeal to a ruling in his favour – ie it’s not like his suit was without foundation. In 2006 it won in the Federal Court, but he then lost on appeal. Pretty harsh, you lose on a appeal and you have to pay court costs?
I don’t want to see Brown gone – he has said some dopey things at times (eg Garret should have been up on the Sunshine Coas tinstead of performing at the bushfire relief), but his speeches in ther Senate (and his actions) are always worthy of respect.
I’m only speculating – is that a crime ?
Or is it only acceptable for the Zucchini Party to make Baseless accusations ?
Especially in light of your beloved leader’s hypcrisy on Political Donations.
Oz,
“Senator Brown said the costs of his entire legal bid to stop logging in the forest totalled almost $900,000 over five years.
Much of that had been paid for by him personally as well as through “lots of small donations” from the public, he said.”
Has Brown declared all the donations to date to settle a matter that is by his own admission ultimately, a personal debt. Whatever happened to transparency and honesty?
Do you agree his criticisms of Rudd earlier last week makes him a hypocrite?
http://www.theage.com.au/national/greens-leader-brown-faces-senate-expulsion-20090608-c0pq.html
Couldn’t be!! He says he’s directed preference to the ALP for the last 28 years!!
Yeah, and I’ve always voted Liberal.
Sorry, my mistake
Speculating’s not, but accusations of fraud come close to libel.
No idea.
If it’s a personal debt, why would he declare them?
The salivating has stepped up a notch, being drowned in spittle.
Separate to the BB thingy, at what point is a case in the public interest
ie should legal aid be used to fund such cases??
Oz
If you care to look at the ALP national figures income was greater than expenditure. That is the issue.
If you do not want to compare apples with apples I can’t be bothered debating you.
How can it be Libel I did not say that he DID it.
What I don’t understand is this. The best chance Labor has of passing legislation in the Senate is with a Labor-Green majority, as a Labor majority simply won’t happen. Why bite the hand that feeds you?
Oh how amusing it would be if the 20% Liberal portion that makes up the Green vote (but with most voting above the line) went back to the Liberals in the event of a Green vote collapse, and ended up getting the Liberals an extra seat, rather than flow to Labor on prefs. Not so much amusing as tragic, but amusing in the sense that those Laborites who hate the Greens really do bite the hand that is most capable of feeding them.
Ruawake I’m simply citing the AEC which states the Labor and Liberal parties are millions in debt. I presume it’s the same source you went too. Don’t have a cry because the facts don’t line up your way. =)
And I note to replies to this…
Since the Australian Greens were formed as a federal and federated party in time for the 1996 election, their Senate vote has increased at all five elections. This is the only Australian political party that can claim their vote has increased at the past five elections, and the only one that has never had a swing against them.
But as we said, neither Labor or Liberal politicians are facing Bankruptcy for a failed legal challenge.
Chat about Melbourne, Sydney, Grayndler isn’t talking about the Senate.
That’s why I said “come close”.
Still, pretty pathetic that the best you can do is randomly suggest that the two individual donators to the NSW Greens are a corporate front. Hilarious though.
bob, the vitriol and hatred is completely irrational. Most of it comes from right-wing Labor supporters who would rather see the Labor and Liberals do deals than Labor and The Greens because the result would be too left-wing.
Nor winning State seats like Fremantle either.
That’s where the Zucchini’s Fantasyland babble kicks in.
Which has little to do with the financial situation of the party, that ruawake mentioned. =)
No one explaining why the Tas government is more concerned about getting rid of Brown than getting their money either.