The latest Morgan face-to-face survey of 897 respondents was conducted last weekend, at the worst possible time for Labor with respect to “utegate”, and it shows their two-party lead narrowing from 57-43 to 55-45. This is Labor’s weakest showing at a Morgan face-to-face poll since August 2008, a month before Malcolm Turnbull replaced Brendan Nelson as Liberal leader. Their primary vote is down from 48.5 per cent to 46 per cent, while the Coalition’s is up from 38 per cent to 41 per cent. The Greens are up from 7 per cent to 8.5 per cent; for what it’s worth, Family First are down from 2.5 per cent to 1 per cent.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
899 Comments
This poll is uteless!
This was the Libs Honeymoon period before the Merde hit the coolinbg device on Monday
ShowsOn,
I’ll Grant you that one!
very, very droll ShowsOn
The European powers were, even in the 19th century, fairly small countries in terms of the world’s population. They were able to establish domination over much larger non-European populations because (a) they were the first to discover the enormous wealth-generating power of capitalism, particularly banking and trade, and (b) they were able to exploit the resources of the Americas, then very thinly populated and open to settlement and exploitation.
These circumstances are not going to be repeated. Now that the whole world has been drawn into the international system of capitalist production and trade, rich but relatively small countries like Germany, France and Britain, even Russia and Japan, will inevitably lose their places as leading powers to larger countries. The three largest countries are China, India and the USA, and they will soon become, and will remain, the world’s dominant powers. The US will lose some of its relative dominance to China and India as the latter two grow richer and more powerful, but a country with 300m people, a whole continent to occupy, a huge lead in technology and enormous military strength (not to mention vast “soft power” as the world’s dominant culture), is not going to cease to be a world power within the next century (unless they elect more Republican morons as President.)
Craig Emerson is one smart cookie, announcing the death of Grocerywatch this afternoon between the deaths of MJ, FF, MT and whoever else.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/grocery-choice-project-in-tatters-20090626-czot.html
So in other words, these companies refused to provide real time price figures to the government, because they don’t actually like competing against each other.
How come the celebrity POTUS No: 1 has not made any comment as yet?
http://www.nme.com/news/michael-jackson/45620
Inflation is dead, so who cares? It was a cheap populist campaign promise, like Fuelwatch, and is no loss.
Gosh, Adam, that’s very profound. How do you say “like, der” in your language?
I thought Choice were taking over Grocerywatch?
Psephos @ 5
Cogent analysis, Pseph. All the same, I’m afraid Canadians and Mexicans might take exception to your phrase……..”a whole continent to occupy”. LOL
In 2009 the population of Europe was estimated to be 830 million, the USA’s 300 million. It’s no longer about the states of Europe, it’s about Europe.
marktwain, are you referring to 5 or 9?
Its been a long time between blogs but it’s great to see you “hard core bloggers” are still here – truely the salt of the Earth.
That’s what you guys are!
When Europe has one governmment, one foreign minister and one army, that will be true. Currently it isn’t. Europe can’t even deal with local messes like Bosnia or Kosovo in its own backyard without the US doing the hard work.
Why couldn’t the government legislate to mandate they give the info over?
If anyone wants to read a not only a good rollicking yarn, but IMHO the best economic history book ever written about the rise of Europe as an economic and military power, David Landes “The Wealth and Poverty of Nations” hits the spot.
It makes other attempts, like ‘Guns, Germs and Steel’ look positively pedestrian.
Why is “salt of the earth” good, but “salt the earth” bad?
Number 5, Adam. The only people who think Poland or Mexico will become superpowers are the tards who buy George Friedman’s book. I was rude in that post and didn’t really mean it, but I don’t believe you should waste your time composing arguments that are common sense to anyone with an IQ in the triple figures.
Now, will you admit you were incorrect on the swine flu myth hoo-haa or not?
Rudd Government eventually realises “good intentions” no substitute for thought… Grocery Choice is Dead
Funny timing with the release of that though. It was was such a slow news day this Friday at 4:45pm.
What with Michael Jackson dying, Farrah Fawcett dying, it would have been so easy to miss that…
Anyone might think the Rudd Government was hoping no-one would notice!
“The Government had hoped to revamp the site with the help of the consumer group Choice, but today Consumer Affairs Minister Craig Emerson pulled the plug completely. “I don’t believe that consumers would get reliable timely information,” Mr Emerson said.” (ABC online)
Sorry Choice, it always was a lame duck. Who really cares that you can save less than what a cup of coffee costs on a $175 basket of groceries if you have to go to a different supermarket? But worst of all it didn’t help those people who need a bit extra, the elderly, poor and infirm.
More analysis here http://42south147east.info/2009/05/29/grocerywatch-open-letter-to-duncan-kerr-mhr.aspx and here http://42south147east.info/2009/05/29/the-frog-lady.aspx
Last word to Duncan Kerr whose brilliant idea it was “I wouldn’t have done this for so many years if I didn’t think it was a good idea” LOL
yep Grocery Choice gone, how will the Rudd Govt recover from such a mortal wound?
FuelWatch, GroceryWatch, DeathWatch, WristWatch, NightWatch are just small watches.
There are bigger clocks for the Govt to tick over with like GFC, TGR, CC, EduRevol and Building Australia, and dont forget Malcolm Turnbull.
Ms Twain, I’ll have you know that Adam made an unfortunate slip of the tongue.
He wasnt talking about Swine Flue being a myth and posing no danger – if you look closely, the conversation was actually about the future of Peter Costello and Adam said, quite appropriately, that All Tip’s latest bout of Spine Flue was a myth.
And that he would, in fact, take the easy way out and retire.
marktwain, it’s one of my weaknesses that I cannot see error without attempting to correct it. I was responding to the view widely held among hopeful lefties, here as elsewhere, that the days of the US as a world power are coming to an end. Unless the US does something really dumb like electing Mike Huckabee president, it will remain a world power for the rest of all our lifetimes. You are free to ignore my didactic posts if you already know all this.
Grog @19
Because St Mark wasn’t a Roman, and everyone hates the Carthaginians? Or the other way round?
I am a swinging voter, it is Nov 20 2010, I am in the booth… who to vote for…. hmmm… thinking….thinking….thinking…(can’t they give us a decent sized pencil?)… thinking……hmmm…oh geez, that’s right, they screwed up Grocery Watch, that was the last straw! Malcolm all the way!!!
Interesting piece in an Age editorial from earlier this year.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/malcolm-turnbulls-embarrassing-supporter-20090207-80f0.html?skin=text-only
I’m still not persuaded that swine flu is any more lethal than normal flu. We have had four deaths in the two months since the start of the epidemic. How many flu deaths did we have last winter? (A lot more than four.) How much publicity did they get? (None.) These deaths have been in people who had H1N1 infection, but they also had other illnesses. It doesn’t mean that H1N1 actually killed them, although it probably hastened their demise.
Well I always hate the Carthagnians when I play Civilisation (ducks head and runs away before being labelled a computer games nerd)
Fair enough, Adam. I am a lefty who has never believed that the days of the US as a world power were coming to an end, and nor do I want them to. In actual fact, I like the place. Shocking but true. Like a lot of lefties, however, I do have that weird little place in the back of my mind that shouts CIA/Latin America/South America/IndoChina/Nixon/Reagan/Aaaargh!! and just gets a little irritated.
I’m old enough to have got over it by now.
Where does turkey fit into “the european thing”
Like all great powers in their day, the US has done many bad, foolish, immoral and harmful things. But as hegemons go, it’s not a bad one. It’s a democracy, so it can correct its errors without having to have a revolution – as it is currently doing under Obama. It’s usually well-intentioned, and is willing to be criticised and learn from its mistakes. I’d rather have the US as world hegemon than Napoleon, the Kaiser, Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Ahmedinejad. Recall that the US is the largest donor of food aid to North Korea – how many previous world hegemons would feed their enemies in this way?
Gus, in the oven they fried.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/25/us-swine-flu-cases-may-ha_n_221240.html
Swine flu is not more lethal than normal human flu, but the reason the WHO and the media went hard on it in the first place is that we didn’t know that fact when the outbreak first arose. There was the initial problem that the small village in Mexico where it was first reported had a rather unexpected level of severe flu symptoms in people who were not expected to show these symptoms – namely young and middle-aged healthy adults. Very young children and old people, along with people with co-morbitities, are always the ones who die from flu. That is not in question. A lot of research has gone into understanding the 1918 flu, and the fear was that this might be a repeat. That it hasn’t done so far is a good thing. That it might do in the future is the problem.
The very, very scary prospect that faces the world is if this thing gets into Africa. It has been contained reasonably well in Thailand, but that probably won’t last and widespread infection in southeast Asia is a dreadful thought. Africa, however, is where it may very well become a horror story.
About a month after the intitial outbreak I spoke to one of Australia’s leading microbiologists, a person who led the WHO fight against SARS (which worked) and has helped with bird flu recently (which hasn’t quite), and from what he told me, I was safe in the belief that neither the health authorities’ warnings nor the media reporting were wrong.
Please forgive me if I get a little irritated at times. You surely know how I feel.
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,28383,25692752-5019113,00.html
More likely, Jackson died so he could get away from frauds like Uri Geller:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNKmhv9uoiQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4HQOVqyAxM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Y7QR314xA
Finns
I’m reading a great little book “people of the book”
The forgotten history of Islam and the West
by Zachary Karabell
One interesting part is the ottoman empire (and its control of large chunks of europe)and its decline from hegemony beginning in 1685
though it took the first world war to finally finish it off
Just to follow up. Duncan Kerr has a few good ideas. His Doctor Watch has saved us several hundreds of dollars over the years.
Pity Rudd didn’t have the guts to implement that one.
But no 4am courage there.
“Labor, if it’s easy we’ll do it…”
Psephos
Posted Friday, June 26, 2009 at 8:35 pm | Permalink
When Europe has one governmment, one foreign minister and one army, that will be true. Currently it isn’t. Europe can’t even deal with local messes like Bosnia or Kosovo in its own backyard without the US doing the hard work.
Your assuming projection of military power matters. Given the “great” military success of the last 10 years surly it’s obvious political solutions are required, and attempted military solutions do little more than burn gold.
Which economic unit has expanded it’s borders in the last 10 years; honestly answer that and reflect on the consequences, as an example consider Bosnia , it will probable be a candidate in 2009. Europe spends it’s surplus capital on economic expansion, the USA on bombs. There are consequences.
If things keep going as they are Russia will be part of Europe in less than 100 years, if it is, Russia will no longer be in consideration as a second order power, it will be just another European state.
It’s worth nothing, but in my view in 20 years the economic order will be:
China (if they can keep it together)
Europe (as I point out they are the current leader)
USA ( if they don’t elect too many more right wing nutters)
India.
I think there is a real risk the USA will slip to 4th. At some point their declining economic fortunes are going to force them to stop building bombs and start paying off debt.
“Liberal, if it’s fake we’ll believe it”
Turkey is negotiating as it has been for over 20 years.
Sorry, I meant “morbidities” in my last post.
Must take teddy off to blow my nose and free the typos.
fredn, neither Bosnia nor Kosovo was solved by EU diplomacy. They were solved by US firepower or the threat of it, with the Euros in subordinate roles. And this was in an area where the US has no real strategic interest. Even the diplomacy in Bosnia was in the end provided by the US, with Holbrook and the Dayton Accords.
Emails have never been a Turnbull strongpoint according to this Laurie Oakes interview.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/newsroom/oakes/635081/the-oakes-interview-malcolm-turnbull
This makes no sense. The reason the U.S. has a huge military is because it has a massive economy. It may only spend a few points more of its GDP on military, but it has such a huge economy that those extra points equate to hundreds of billions of dollars.
As Paul Dibb pointed out in this week’s predd club address, China has a hopeless military. This year it celebrates the 60th anniversary of communism, compare that to the Soviet Union when 60 years after the revolution it had nuclear thousands of weapons, hundreds of ICBMS, and at least a dozen spy satellites. China has a few nuclear weapons, and maybe 40 ICBMs are that are 1970s technology.
Europe is not the current world leader, the United States is the only superpower. Europe required the NATO treaty just to keep the Soviet Union under control, i.e. the United States under wrote most of Europe’s security during the cold war.
What declining economic fortunes? The United States economy is the same size as the other top 4 economies put together.
China won’t grow at 10% a year, because its corrupt political system ultimately will make it inefficient.
You also omit India which is a bigger challenge than China because it is a democracy.
All very true, but who is going to end up with the territory in their economic zone, and yet as you point out, the USA spent the gold to make it happen.
Yes the USA has a great military machine, but it’s costing them, it is not earning. It is a miss directed investment. Economic units that miss-direct investment for too long collapse.
fredn, the EU can expand all the way to Vladivostok, but unless it has a united foreign policy and a united military command, and unless it has the willingness to threaten force and use it if necessary, its size and wealth will not make it a great power, because WORLD POWER = SIZE + WEALTH + HARDWARE + WILLPOWER, the EU only has the first two.
you should talk to the Indians. they prefer China than their own “democracy” that only money can buy. how romantic.
One of the reasons the E.U. exists is to STOP European countries invading each other. So your question “who is going to end up with the territory in their economic zone” is just bizarre.
The same can be said for any military. Again, you are completely ignoring the fact the U.S. has a powerful military is because it has a massive economy. You can’t say the same thing for the E.U. where they don’t have a single military, it is based on the spending of each individual country, which tend to spend less on military.
Given that fact, it is impossible to argue that Europe has a more powerful military than the U.S.
On the one hand, you are trying to argue that the E.U. is the world’s only super power because it has a bigger economy, on the other hand you are arguing that the U.S. spends too much on its military.
Which statement is right?
Showson
Europe has a bigger economy. Unless the USA decides to invade China ( Bill Clinton suggested it is a real possibility, as the USA will not enjoy being overtaking economically) a weak military has no economic consequence. Military power is not economic power. Europe has the largest economy, the USA the largest military. Done them a lot of good hasn’t it? Cost them a lot of money, made them a lot of enemies.
China is going to face difficulties, they may get through them, they may not, Australia will be better of if they do, but we will see.
Can anyone imagine the French, Germans and Poms sitting down to agree to anything without a year of nitpicking? The EU can be an economic power but not a world power until they get rid of the Italians and Irish.
And don’t even speak of the Dutch.
per capita the Ottoman’s were outstripping the europeans at least 50 to 1
they also suffered the hubristic sense of technological superiority
The ottoman’s economy was at least 20 times larger than the europeans.
All i am saying is that Current status is no real indicator as to Future status
The USSR being the most salient and latest example of
“the sick man of europe syndrome”
#51 – do tell?
Gus, pre Ottoman, but very interesting. you might want to download this podcast from BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/iot/
or as Yes Minister put it, the typical EU official…
and let’s not mention the druze
What absolute rubbish. 400m people just voted in the world’s biggest free election ever, and they threw most of the Beijing-admirers out, even in West Bengal. The strength of Indian democracy is one of the most hopeful things in the world at the moment.
Showson
As I said in the beginning Europe has worked out how to expand it’s territory without force, looking at past failed attempts to unite Europe doesn’t alter the fact. They are expanding their territory and they are not using force.
I am not arguing that Europe is a Military super power, they only have enough Nuclear Weapons to protect Europe, they don’t have enough to blow up the world and they don’t have the political structure to use them, that is their strength.
Once again I ask you look at which political/economic structure is expanding it’s borders, which is burning gold for no return.
Gus, have i told you this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
God ask me for a joke the other day, so i told him about my future plan.
But the E.U. isn’t a single country with a single government and a single military and foreign policy.
Also, countries in the E.U. tend to spend less in GDP terms than the U.S. on their military, so they don’t have as good technologies.
GDP per capita in China is about $4000, GDP per capita in the U.S. is $40,000. The U.S., per capita, is 10 times richer.
Even if China grows 10% every year, it will take at least 40 years for it to match U.S. wealth. And that’s of course assuming they don’t have some sort of massive economic collapse and / or political upheaval.
Remember, Europe isn’t a country, it can’t choose to use its military power in a co-ordinated way without dozens of countries agreeing.
Well of course it has done them good, they are the richest country in the world with the most advanced technologies in the world.
I guess you are right it has made them a lot of enemies, like the non-existent Soviet Union, Cuba, Iran, North Korea.
On the other hand, the U.S. has a lot of powerful allies, like the U.K., Germany, France, Canada, Australia, Japan, you know, the other countries that have GDP per capita of $35,000 or more.
I think it is highly unlikely that China will grow at 10% a year every year for the next 4 decades. As with the Soviet Union, ultimately the massive inefficiencies caused by the corrupt political structure will drag the economy down.
Herr Doktor, obviously, you dont many Indian friends.
Other than access to economic resources, what is there? That is my whole point, your focused on guns and guts, Europe has worked it out, access to resources is all that matters.
fredn, let’s suppose there is another nasty little war in the Caucasus, and it becomes necessary to threaten the use of force against Russia. You know as well as I do that the EU would hold summits and argue and pass motions and wring their hands, that Russia would threaten to turn off their gas if they did anything, that they would wimp it, and that utimately it would be the USAF that went and bombed Vladikavkaz and the Marines (supported only by the Brits and the Poles) that would go into the Caucasus to sort out the Russkies.
Very true, one country only has to follow to grow, the other has to come up with new ideas. If chine get’s access to the resources and doesn’t fall over politically it will grow. Australia is only too happy to sell them the resources, that is what we do.
There is no such country called “Europe”. The European Union was designed to force countries to cooperate with each other instead of invading each other. It is silly to treat it as a country, when most E.U. countries only trade with each other, at the expense of other countries like Australia.
Who on earth is “they”? Also, other than buying Alaska from the Russians, the U.S. hasn’t expanded its territory using force since it killed a heap of American Indians.
This makes no sense. France or the U.K. could use nuclear weapons if they wanted to, and the E.U. parliament would have absolutely no power to stop them.
A political/economic structure is not a nation state.
Adam do you like being called Herr Doktor?
China is growing because it embraced capitalism.
But it is still an overwhelmingly poor country. And I refer to my earlier comments, compared with what the Soviet Union did in its first 60 years, China has an absolute basket case military based on old and pre-existing technologies.
Friday Happy hour on SBS: Footy Chicks
Glen, I neither like it nor dislike it. I’ve been called worse things.
we are not here to please
Just been through that haven’t we, Europe needed the gas, Russia needed the money, a lot of noise but it worked out a hell a lot better than the mess in the middle east is my judgment, and it cost all parties a hell of a lot less money. Europe has learnt to be patient.
If Turnbull survives until the next sitting is he safe?
Safe in the sense that he will get to live out his life long dream of failing utterly at the next election.
Glen
the use of von possum,herr doktor and wilhelm or othersuch is meant without malice or intent
Sometimes
I can;t see him going Glen. All the Libs have pretty much admitted they have no one else.
Ah default; as Homer would say, the two greatest words in the English language.
It also sat by doing nothing when Slobodan Milosevic was conducting ethnic cleansing.
It took the United States to sort that out via NATO, because the E.U. was too gutless to do anything about it.
De Fault! De Fault! De Fault! De Fault!
Mista Gus?
I’m not arguing against capitalism. I am arguing that being a military super power costs and gains you very little, if the USA doesn’t attack Chine the state of the Chines military machine doesn’t matter zip.
That is a moral judgment, not an economic one.
I suppose you are right in one respect, fred. Great powers have learned in the past sixty years not to launch all-out attacks on other great powers. The EU is not under threat by anyone, and all EU members are protected by the others. (Don’t forget, however, that they are also protected by the US alliance, not that many of them are happy about it.)
But China has not bothered to assert its dominance against anyone besides Tibet, and that poor place is hardly a power. While it is thought to be exerting some small influence on Burma and Vietnam, it wouldn’t dare make a move against Taiwan for fear of American firepower. Now that may change in 10 years, but China’s complete lack of influence over Nth Korea speaks differently.
I’d certainly like to see a moderate group of superpowers arise in the future, but we are stuck with the US and China. India will be a superpower in the next decade, but remember they have nuclear weapons too and absolutely hate their neighbours. The EU should merely be added to the US juggernaut. The Chinese are inscrutable as ever.
Then there’s the Russians and the Indonesians. They are the true gamebreakers.
It doens’t cost you much when your economy has a GDP of $16 trillion.
If China doesn’t spend more on its military, then the U.S. will remain the world’s only superpower, it’s as simple as that.
Anyone know the line-up for Lateline?
I want to know whether to top up my Red and wait, or crawl off to the land of Nod
Chatsworth result is going to be the subject of an appeal by the LNP candidate.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25692984-3102,00.html
There’s emus on Foxtel.
I am glad to see that Fredn is forcing the historians to change the focus of the debate. Fredn clearly stated that the EU was becoming the largest economic power, something in the future, not the past. The detractors are now arguing that it isn’t true because it is not a single nation, it doesn’t have the biggest militaria etc etc. Get back to the point that Fredn originally raised – that the EU is fast becoming the largest economic power.
Tom.
Countries that spend more, in GDP terms, on defence than the U.S.:
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Jordan
Israel
Yemen
Armenia
Eritrea
Macedonia
Burundi
Syria
Angola
Mauritania
Maldives
Kuwait
Turkey
Salvador
Morocco
Singapore
Swaziland
Bahrain
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Brunei
China
Greece
Chad
U.S. (4.06%)
Australia spends 2.4% (same as the U.K.) but that is going to increase.
Surprisingly, France spends 2.6%
MTW, dont forget the Mongolians. Remember them, they used to rule the world. their time will come again. you know, the cyclic thing.
There just waiting for someone to pony up.
marktwain
I’ve seen it argued that Chine leaves North Korea alone because it’s doesn’t want a bigger mess on it’s door step.
Indonesian is a democracy and the sane thing for Australia to do is to engage with it economically, as much as possible, learn the lesson Europe have learnt.
I don’t think it is an economic power, because most countries in the E.U. only trade with each other, but have protected economies when trading outside of the E.U.
Also, “economic power” is a silly term, a country with a big economy that can’t defend itself isn’t a power, i..e it can’t make other countries change their behavior via diplomacy or force.
That’s exactly what we have been doing for the last 20 years.
But in our military planning we should have a contingency in case it is taken over by an authoritarian or nationalist regime.
I’ve seen Mongolian ponies on Animal Planet. They are nowhere near as scary as emus.
ah, the Indfonesians are now our friend, what happens to the Imans of JI from Jakarta Menteng where Obi was trained as their Manchurian candidate.
Ahhhh such naivety.
So what. Not much use really is it, 4.06% of GDP ( which doesn’t include the $1 trillion US dollars spent on the iraq war) wasted unless it brings an economic advantage, I’d be happy to hear what it is.
Oz, do you have to be so unkind?
All countries have their religious nutters, if you don’t believe me spend some time in the deep south of the USA.
Ah, how perfectly wonderful. Some intelligent political discussion going on, and I particularly want to thank The Finns for the ‘Indfonesians’. Not being awful, Finns, it just made me laugh, at that point.
Nope. =P
Tony Abbott taking over the Liberal Leadership in that old fashioned style…and the Ham really suits Mal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EvPvfVOUV8&feature=related
And to bed probably….
Lateline interview is about Iran…
Well, if you looked at the list I presented above, you would note that China spends MORE in GDP terms than the U.S. on military spending.
However, China spends it on old technologies and on massive standing armies that have nothing to do. The U.S. spends it on spy satellites, undetectable aircraft, and cyber warfare technologies that we don’t know anything about.
There are lots of technologies that started off as military applications that found useful civilian use, like radar and magnetic tape. The internet and GPS started their lives as U.S. military technologies, I think it would be hard to argue that the internet hasn’t helped the U.S. economy.
So, Lateline is going to do MJ, for those who asked. Iran gets a minor mention. Gusmao a bastard and should go.
That’s it, I suppose.
Do the Indfonesians holiday in Indfanema?
Good. I feared it was going to be about Michael Jackson.
i spent some time in the deep south of Indonesia. It’s very pretty, swaying palm trees, paddy field terraces, water buffaloes, and rambutan trees.
You think so, negotiations with Turkey have been going on for over twenty years because they have taken longer than others to fall into line, but in they end they will, just as all the other countries who have joined have.
Military force only breeds resentment.
That’s funny, France spends more on defence than Australia. France and the U.K. both have nuclear weapons, and they are in the E.U.
I have to give you that one.
Not to mention stupid.
I don’t think Australia is aiming to become a super power.
Hah, you want religious nutters, try Indiana. Major university town of 15 thousand people usually, swells to about 60 thousand in term time. How many “churches”?
Ah, Lateline does the demise of Grocerywatch after 20 minutes of MJ and his demise.
If you saw the National Press Club address this week, Paul Dibb and Hugh White both argued that we need to have a debate now about how reliant we want to be on the U.S. in the future.
White in particular said that if we think China and the U.S. are going to fight over power in our region in 20 or 30 years time, then Australia will have to spend more on defence to achieve greater self reliance. So instead of spending 2.4% of GDP, we will need to spend 3% so we an get more air craft and submarines, and the associated crew.
White argues that if we stay spending 2.4% for the next decade or more, then effectively our military will be like New Zealand’s, we will be almost completely reliant on other countries to protect us, except unlike New Zealand, we have a gigantic land mass to defend.
OK, a quiet night, so… some trivia
Today is the anniversary of the death of a racing driver with the unfortunate name of
‘Dick seaman’.
Born to a wealthy family in the United Kingdom in 1913, Dick was drawn to the european racing scene in the interwar years and was eventually employed by Nazi backed Mercedes benz team in the late 1930s.
He famously returned a Nazi salute to Hitler after winning a European grand prix in 1938 and later married the daughter of the head of BMW. His English family disowned him as a result
He crashed and burned at Spa in the wet just a few months before wwII started, slamming his Merc against a tree where it burst into flames. (There are photos on the net). He was left in the flames until a Belgian policeman with rather large cojenes couldn’t stand to watch and calmly walked up to the burning wreck and freed the Englishman.
Dick Seaman lived for a few more hours after the accident, during which he was reportedly compos mentis. He apologised to his wife in advance for not being able to attent the cinema with her that evening. He also accepted blame for the accident, saying his driving line was suitable for a dry race and he should have backed off when conditions had deterioated.
The Belgian policeman’s fate is not available on the internet sources.
I am reminded of this week’s saga of Godwin Grech and malcolm turnbull, although which is which is hard to say
France and the U.K. aren’t superpowers either. They are nuclear powers, but the only superpower is the United States.
We can’t beat china and we can’t beat the USA, so who exactly are we going to beat up, oh that’s right,when you want a boogy man you call up the Indonesians.
there is nothing like snuggle up in bed and bloggin’ on your mobile. you should try it sometimes.
Be honest, we have no idea what the world will be like in 20 or 30 years. Indonesia is a country with an overwhelmingly moderate Muslim populace, but how do we know it will always be like that?
Surely it would be prudent for us to plan our military spending and structure on the possibility, however remote, that a nationalist regime takes power in Indonesia? I am not saying it is going to happen, but I think it would be wrong for our policy makers to just pretend it isn’t a possibility.
Also, if we shift away from the U.S. to a closer alliance with China, then we have the same questions, we would need a military capable of greater self reliance. So the rise of China has implications for us as well.
And to fully complete the circle I will point out that France and the UK are part of an economic entity that is expanding it’s borders, the US is not; not much use being a super power, is it.
Ya, and the beat goes on. It just might be smarter to spend one of the billions on closer economic ties. It might help our and their economy and improve the standard of living of all.
fredn, what century are you living in? The days when powers aspired to “expand their borders” ended in 1945, at the latest. The US enjoys unchallenged world hegemony with the same borders it had in 1938, when its armed forces were smaller than Portugal’s. Have you heard of ICBMs, nuclear submarines, satellites? The also has enormous economic power, gained without annexing any territory since the Spanish-American War.
1) The fact UK and France is in the E.U. is terrible for Australia, because it makes it harder for Australia to sell things to France and the U.K.
2) Why on earth does the U.S. need to expand its borders? Why is that inherently good? Germany expanded its borders when Hitler was in power, was that good? Saddam Hussein tried to do the same when he was in power, was that good?
I’ll tell you want would ensure Australians have a lower standard of living, if a country invades us and we can’t defend ourselves. When Darwin was bombed we required the assistance of the U.S. What I am proposing is that if the U.S. is too busy having arguments with China, then Australia needs to be more self reliant.
Your dreamy obsession with the miracle of democracy in India demonstrate a really deep misunderstanding about the variety of factors that influence the process.
This is but one example:
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/democracy-corrupted-voters-sell-their-vote-in-india/87142-37.html
A study done by the Centre for Media Studies in Delhi involving surveying 41,000 voters found that 22% of Indians had taken bribes in exchange for their votes and the figure was 37% among those living below the poverty line.
Why ignore hundreds of military and spy bases across the globe?
As someone with the ability to fly on either an Australian or New Zealand passport, the latter is far more preferable, mainly due to the absolute p*ss weak status of NZ’s military arsenal. In fact, when you fly into Charles de Gaulle and whip out the old Kupu Whakataki (wot?), the locals kiss your ar*se.
It’s rather a pleasant feeling. Not that the K Ones could survive without the ANZUS treaty – just saying.
The U.S. has no ANZUS treaty obligations to New Zealand. The only way it will change that policy is if Key over turns the ban on nuclear subs.
There is one simply way to avoid being f’d in future…nuclear weapons then nobody will mess with us…but it may piss off the Indons and the Reds mind….
This would be the worst idea of all. If Australia gets nuclear weapons, how would we be able to complain about North Korea or Iran or Indonesia getting nuclear weapons?
If Indonesia gets nuclear weapons, then what is the point of Australia having nuclear weapons?
realistically tho, the usa would come to NZ’s aid if a ‘clear and present danger existed’
regardless of a ban on nuke subs
It wouldn’t have to. Obama may just tell Key to call us.
I apply your undeniably sound logic to nuke power as well
ShowsOn
If the Indons ever go for nukes then we should immediately…it would create an imbalance…
Firstly we’ll never stop NKorea’s nukes unless we finish the job we started in the 1950s, unlikely…hence with Nukes, China and Indonesia would never think about messing with us in the future…
There is a reason why countries with nukes dont fight each other it’s called MAD
mutually assured destruction is a good idea is it?
No, Australia and the U.S. should talk to the Indonesian and convince them not to get them. Again Glen, if Australia gets nuclear weapons, then all the unstable regimes in the middle east will be able to get them too, and Australia will be in no position to argue against it.
That only worked when there were two super powers with thousands of nukes capable of destroying the planet. Those two countries are currently dismantling their nuclear arsenals.
The more nuclear weapons there are in the world, the less safe it will be. That is the rationale we use when telling North Korea and Iran to stop their enrichment programs, and it should apply to us as well.
Umm if the shaggers were under imminent attack i think we would already be involved and therefore the US would be dragged in as well.
Shows, are you saying Australia would desert NZ in its hour of need? Who would we have to whinge about then?
This is completely ignoring the fact that the only threat to NZ is from some rogue seal/penguin/hagfish robohybrid, of course. And you can never discount that possibility.
back up guys. do you think mutually assured destruction is a good idea?
So that means Australia’s future military policy should be based around having to defend both Australia and New Zealand? That means more subs, more aircraft, and some aircraft criers.
Shows On
I think you are underestimating China esp in regard to GDP per capita. China’s low GDP per capita is low partly for the same reason its gdp growth is so high. Demographics. The one child policy has not fully stabilized China’s population yet. As china’s population starts to resemble a typical MDC its GDp per capita will increase greatly as there will not be significantly more people than well paying jobs. The rise of Chinese brands such as Hisense and the wealth funds are reducing its capital flight which is better quality growth than simply being the worlds cheap labor.
Don’t underestimate the Chinese!
Glen does, because he is extrapolating for one very specific example – the cold war – to other examples that aren’t the same.
I believe that more nuclear weapons means the world is less safe.
No
but it sort of evolved from the ‘arms race’ period and could be expressed as the point where demand (warmongers) meets supply (total extermination)
I certainly don’t underestimate the Chinese, but nor do I think its economy will double in size each decade. Eventually its political structure will be a drag on its economy.
I think NZ will take care of the aircraft criers. They’re good at that.
No No no
It means that I recognise the deep ties ie constitutional,historical etc , that make the soveriegnty of NZ intrinsically entwined to Australia, regardless of the latest vogues
I recognise those things too. But if Australia really needs to be able to defend N.Z., then Australia will need to spend money on even more hardware.
Michael Jackson has the top 15 CDs on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/music/ref=pd_ts_zgc_m_music_display_on_website_more?pf_rd_p=482110191&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=5174&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=05Q8DXR5KMKSEAEPXB1Z
It’s got nothing to do with constitutional ties, Gus. It’s got to do with mademoiselles from Armentieres, rugby and the looming seal/penguin/hagfish robohybrid threat.
ther best expenditure Oz can make is thru targetted foreign aid
The US will still provide us with the “umbrella”
ShowsOn, my dear, this is meant to demonstrate what exactly?
And lamingtons.
“I certainly don’t underestimate the Chinese, but nor do I think its economy will double in size each decade. Eventually its political structure will be a drag on its economy.”
I think China’s political and economic institutions have been quite good at evolving when they have needed to as they have done in the past but i do agree it will drag the Chinese economy down but not as much as you think. Also the gerrymandering and pork barreling and a stupid economic philosophy have already done that to the united states. To date only some of these issues have been addressed. California with its evil robot governor from the future sent to destroy the past’s economy is seeing that the united states will remain very stagnate for the next few years.
Considering we have let you win the rugger so many times, I thought I would not dent your pride any further
I stand corrected
Well it is hard for us to predict isn’t it? In the early 1980s, the Soviet Union had very similar military capabilities to the United states. Ten years later, the entire country collapsed, partly because it was spending 20% of its GDP on the military.
We do know, however, that China’s military is way behind what the Soviet Union’s was 60 years after their respective Communist revolutions.
Um, no they haven’t. The United States has the biggest economy and greatest military capability in the world.
NZ has let Australia win at the rugger? When did that happen?
I declare war. Now, where’s that ANZUS treaty?
Never
But Oz has certainly let NZ win (many many times)
Bit like an older brother making sure their younger sibling did not lose heart because of their inadequacies.
Also helps the NZ’ers feel good at something
Well, they do make a better lamington, Gus, you have to give them that. A touch better on indigenous relations, but not by much.
No, I agree. Apart from hobbits, the poor ruggers have nothing going for them. Better nuke them from orbit.
many moons ago I ahd the good fortune to labour with donovan nikau, brother of tewara nikaua quite prominent NZ playing in the then winfield cup.
besides being a prince (from taranaki from memory) he was also a large ‘rights’ holder.
This was quite eye opening and after the obligatory waitangi harangue, we became good mates
I truly dips me hat to New Zealands attempts to address the wrongs perpetuated on its indigenes
“Well it is hard for us to predict isn’t it? In the early 1980s, the Soviet Union had very similar military capabilities to the United states. Ten years later, the entire country collapsed, partly because it was spending 20% of its GDP on the military.”
Your premise is that China is fundamentally flawed. As you yourself pointed out the Chinese don’t spend anywhere near 20% of their GDP on defence because they know alot better and have learnt those lessons from history. The Chinese and the soviets were in pretty much the same position as the ussr in 1989 and Gorbachev was trying to introduce the same reforms as the Chinese were.
China and the USSR are different in a few important ways. Gorbachev failed because he was a weak tho well intended leader. Ethnic Russians were barley over 50 percent of the population. The Chinese are well over the 80 percent mark and i think that’s just mandarin. the Chinese were able to push through their economic reforms because the had the comparative wisdom to shoot dissenters who were unhappy with the economic mess they were in and rode out the storm. The stupidity of the coup plotter not to “take care of” Yeltson played a role in the Soviet collapse. If the USSR had a stronger leader it would not have collapse all the stars just aligned during the 1990s.
In summary apples and oranges.
I know who Tawera Nikau is, but what the hell is a Waitangi harangue? I hope both your face and eardrums survived the experience.
It’s on! Hockey jockeying for the leadership:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25697289-421,00.html
Apparently under the treaty (of waitangi) , certain conditions/obligations were never fulfilled.
The way donovan it, a lot of what we would call “resource rights” eg logging were never given, tho, as I’m sure you are aware, things like fishing rights were
In part that is why her maj was given the traditional mark of disdain way back in the 80’s or thereabouts
(insert saw after donovan)
Shows On,
Someone ought to tell him he’s dreaming!
127
If the UK was not in the EU then they would be importing more Australian, New Zealand and other produce. France is big on protectionism and probably would not be a much of a better importer without the EU.
Aha. I know what the treaty of Waitangi is, so basically a Waitangi harangue is you having to listen to the argy-bargy all over again?
Sounds like the front bench of the Liberal Party. Who are these three frontbenchers Patricia mentions?
larry, curly and moe??
BTW watangi is how the British spelt it
illliterates!!!
marktwain.
My guess is the “big swinging dicks” faction.
Sounds more like a pre-emptive strike at Joe Hockey from those in an opposing faction, group or sewing circle (whatever the Libs call it).
Well, it’s oooon and they have the long winter break to do each other in.
GG, please identify these dicks. It’s in the national interest.
Hven’t heard a peep out of Brendan, he still alive?
Do the dicks sew, Zombie? This is intriguing.
It appears to be those Shadow Ministers on very low margins. Dutton, Ciobo and Keenan. Pyne has been accused of being an accessory without the facts.
I think Pyne is a dress without the accessories.
Ciobo’s margin is 14.0 per cent.
I thought he was an accessory without the bling
To rely completely on the assumption that America would protect us under their ‘umbrella’ is fool hardy…
Would the Americans really trade San Francisco for Sydney by sticking up for us in a nuclear showdown???
I doubt it…
You obviously have never been premise to the objectives of the “kangaroo” exercises
held bi-annually with the USA
Look I support ANZUS wholeheartedly i just think we’d be stupid to completely rely on it…
glen
one word (actually its really two)
Aircraft Carrier
No more.No less
are you in favour of us having them?
William,
He’s sweating!
Glen
what I mean and PM’s, from curtin onwards have accepted, is that Oz is one big AC
the yanks accepted that Oz was in essence a re-victualling (supply) point and considering our geographic position, have treated Oz since WW2 as an AC
We are intrinsic to the security of the USA , as they are to us
a treaty just enshrines what is accepted as fact.
A sweating dick sitting on 14 per cent. I’d like to see that.
Well we just have to hope they would back us against China in the future because if they dont we’ll end up Communists lol
I doubt the power of the young turks in Dutton, Keenan and Ciobo to influence who becomes leader…
China has to sort out a lot of past wrongs before it even turns to our quadrant.
Its most pressing issues stem from the middle east and the steppes
We are at most an irritating itch.
The EU will not spread to include Russia, for the same reason ASEAN wll not spread to include China: They will get swollowed up.
I have a vaugue memory concerning ANZUS that may be “faulty or flawed”
When the US congress was debating the treaty to get support one proponent pointed out “don’t worry, it doesn’t force us to do anything”. Well, shore enough during the brief Malaysian/Indonesian war when we got involved and asked the US to come to our aid they refused.
Clearly the main security threat to NZ are the French terrorists, Israeli spies or US nukes. I is true that in the boardgame “Risk”, inwhich you battle for world domination, Australia is oftern faught over early. But why is this? Well its because its EASY TO DEFEND, wherase the Middle East can be attacked from all angels. The Indonesian military never thinks twice about attacking us but our military is preoccupied with Indonesia (Indonesia is a phoney imperialist construct of first the Duth, then the Javanese by the way). I think our location puts us at us at no more risk than NZ and like in the book “Tomorrow when the war began” any attack on us will become an attack on NZ (the US only sent military aid in this ficticious account). Once an invasion force reaches the mainland we’re stuffed anyway. The best thing to do is keep up friendly relations with South East Asia and stay neutral in any US/China conflict. If we must battle, do so at sea before Darwin falls.
The US will of course always be a major power. Nevertheless their relative strength will continue to weaken. Predictions of a post Cold War multi-polar world have not immediatly come true and may not for some time. However the Bi-Polar USA/USSR world wasn’t particularly even for a long time. The US were miles ahead from the 70’s (???) onward. Likewise we might slowly move from a unipolar world to a multipolar world with the US no longer a super power but just the largest of the major powers: With the order US/China top two, EU/India next two and Russia/Brazil making up the next teer.
The future is bloody hard to predict though. The US and China will be particularly hard hit by peak oil and Climate Change. Russia on the otherhand will be better placed to withstand both these issues – not enough to re-enter superpowerness, but enough to play with the big boys again.
PJK is right again. What a giant we have prematurely lost in PJK. At least, we got the musical.
The good, the bad and the ugly of Turnbull, there will more like this from now of Turnbull. It wont be pretty but necessary.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/brilliant-and-fearless-but-paul-keating-was-right-about-turnbull-20090626-czt7.html?page=-1
Early market time starts now.
The Heysen Molotov
The future is impossible to predict, but you don’t need no future prediction to know that Europe is the largest economy, that their territory is expanding (where that stops is for the future to tell) that USA manufacturing is being hollowed out, that they just spent 1 trillion dollars ( external to their defense budget) on a war that resulted in little or no economic gain and definitely no increase in territory, that the USA GDP is about 14 trillion dollars and that their external debt is 11 trillion dollars.
[It’s on! Hockey jockeying for the leadership:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25697289-421,00.html
It’s a bunch of swinging dicks talking about another swinging dick. They think Hockey “distanced himself” from the Utegate business, they’re so deluded. What did they want him to do to seem more involved? Slit his throat on the floor of the Parliament?
Please guys, put Sloppy Joe in as leader.
As for Turnbull, my prediction is that when he loses the ldeadership he’ll leave politics. He’s rich enough to be able to and why would he want to stay around with those turkies?
This article in SMH is very revealing. http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-incredible-shrinking-leader–how-the-opposition-leader-blew-it-20090626-czut.html?page=4
If it is true that Grech met Turnbull and showed Turnbull the email, then clearly Turnbull knew that Grech had the email. Then Turnbull should have been the one person (with Abetz) to know that the last words in this statement from Grech in Senate estimates…
was a lie. Despite that, Turnbull still based his attack on this testimony.
Did it Psephos? A more correct statement would be, increasing borders using force pretty much ended in 1945, which underlines my point, having lots and lots of military hardware just costs money.
Europe is the biggest economy because it expand it’s borders, Europe has over twice the population of the USA because it expanded it’s borders, Europe has considerable more resources both human and natural to use in the future because it expanded it’s border.
Just because they did it without guns doesn’t mean they don’t get the economic advantages that come with scale.
Kit, Keating is quite right. If the roles were reversed and Turnbull was PM he would be throwing everything at Rudd in parliament. Rudd would be accused of lying based on the point you have made plus Turnbull would be using whatever he knows about the AFP investigations so far (and there will be plenty to know so far as I can imagine that Grech has poured out his heart and soul.)
What’s PM Rudd doing? He’s attacking all right but only based on what’s been said in the media (e.g. Turnbull had met Grech) and what’s been said in parliament. He has resisted painting a picture with elaborate twists, turns and deceptions. I reckon the Liberals were hoping that Rudd had launched an attack including some wild accusations thrown in that could later be shown as entirely wrong and therefore have an adverse effect on the investigations and evidence presented in possible court proceedings.
Rudd has been pretty clinical whereas Turnbull has been firing ammunition in all directions including at his own feet. Rudd is patient. His opponent is a (Turn) bull in a china shop.
Turnbull seems to have thought the “email” was real. This is why he buttonholed Charlton. This is why he prematurely pressed Rudd to resign on Friday afternoon, before Rudd had a chance to respond to Grech’s testimony (as if Rudd would resign in those circumstances). I think Turnbull was hoping that over the weekend the mud would stick, whatever the result of the email audit at PMO and Treasury. But once Rudd had the text of the email he could order a search based on keywords, not just “From” and “To” fields. He was precipitate and foolish to try for a death blow at this early stage.
Encouragingly, even Annbel Crabbe is now saying that the old ute and a phone call is nothing compared to $10 million in taxpayers’ money for Turnbull’s neighbour, “mate and benefactor” (as he himself likes to put it) for the rainmaking contraption. The whole thing isn’t about the scope of the benefit provided by Swan to Grant now, but more of whether he misled parliament. I think Swan did hold back a bit, and her certainly had enough sense to know that admitting to a personal phone call on June 4th might have been trouble for him (remember we weren’t talking about fake emails at that stage). But whent he fake turned up Swannie could slip in the bit about the phone call and tough it out, which he clearly has. Any more talk about the arcane rules of misleading parliament, or whether a pile of emails is equal to a two minute phone call are sheer bloodymindedness. Whoever continues to argue this among the commentariat will be outing themselves as purely partisan. Politicians doing favours for “connected” constituents is just not a hanging offence. This was Turnbull’s other mistake, trying to make the normal business of politics a capital crime.
Now he has the rainmaking business to deal with, as I think he would have every backbencher who ever got the loan of a ute or made a phone call for a friend in his ear begging him to go easy, lest the gravy train dries up. The Libs need all the benefactors they can get right now. We saw what Costello achieved when he went feral on Rudd over Burke. His own colleague, Campbell, had to resign. Rudd sailed through it. The same thing could happen to Turnbull if he pushes this too far.
Just imagine if he ws PM. There’d be industrial strife, sackings, terrible bother all over the place as his ego was allowed to go the full monte on anything he chose. I think the Libs know this full well. He’ll be on a leash now, under guard lest he make any more blunders like this week’s succession of them. One more stuff-up and they’ll have to get rid of him, if they haven’t already decided to do so already.
The Couier Mail is running two stories today, one from Laurie Oakes and one from Dennis Aitkins.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25693756-27197,00.html
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25693612-27197,00.html
The poll is pretty much what most of us thought – even if Utegate had been true, it was not a dramatic issue – at worst a 2% swing against the government. I suspect though that the next poll will show a larger swing back.
As for the geopolitical ebate going on before, I will just say one comment: Fredn, if you think that expanding territory and population makes a country stronger, then why did the Soviet Union collapse? It was the largest country on earth. Silly argument. Taking over underdeveloped, overpopulated and unstable regions makes you weaker, not stronger. Look at Indonesia. Even look at Germany; it took them a decade to recover from the cost of integrating East Germany into West Germany. They are still paying for it.
Now it’s the top 16… and on the USA itunes, he accounts for 40 of the top 100 singles and 23 of the top 100 albums.
People are strange.
I guess I was never a huge Jackson fan but even so, I find it hard to see why his death is such a big story. It is neither surprising nor world changing. I’m sorry he died so young, and that he seems to have been used by many people, but a large part of the tragic elements of his life seem self inflicted. Meanwhile stories like Iran, climate change and an opposition leader in league with a possible fraudster take second place?
What utter shite from the Member for Warringah:
Grog
I agree its shite but it doesn’tworry me. I think they just put out stories like that to reassure their own rusted on supporters. They must know nobody remotely impartial would beleive it for a second, and Labor supporters would be in danger of laughing to death.
Grog,
Tony doing his “Black Knight ” impersonation. Come back and fight, it’s only a flesh wound. Tony’s the one with the coconuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690&feature=fvst
If those three Opposition front benchers expect us to believe their drivel that naughty Joe Hockey kept himself above the emailgate scandal last week, they are sadly mistaken. They are trying to set him up as a cleanskin leader who wasn’t tainted by the farce, under the cover off tut-tutting about how he didn’t support Turnbull.
Hockey self-immolated along with Turnbull last week. We’re not falling for their rewriting of history.
US House has passed Climate change bill.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/climate-change-bill-may-h_n_221564.html
The LNP brainstrust have floated a novel idea for Queensland. Sack all councils and make the mayors an Upper House. A seven point plan to keep themselves in opposition for another decade or two presumably.
http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/58e9640c-8ac5-4d43-aaea-2c85cc65aaa29docAidan%20McLindon%20spk%20Beaudesert%202009_06_19_65.pdf#xml=http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/58e9640c-8ac5-4d43-aaea-2c85cc65aaa2/9/hilite/
Hopefully this link woks.
http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/58e9640c-8ac5-4d43-aaea-2c85cc65aaa2/9/doc/Aidan%20McLindon%20spk%20Beaudesert%202009_06_19_65.pdf#xml=http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/58e9640c-8ac5-4d43-aaea-2c85cc65aaa2/9/hilite/
Now THIS is an email … sadly not fake … Take it away, Governor Sanford:
“I could digress and say that you have the ability to give magnificent gentle kisses, or that I love your tan lines or that I love the curve of your hips, the erotic beauty of you holding yourself (or two magnificent parts of yourself) in the faded glow of the night’s light — but hey, that would be going into sexual details …”
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/24/south.carolina.governor.emails/index.html
Wonder if Turnbull wrote a similar email to Grech prior to the Senate hearing?
I thought would have been tampering with the evidence or evidence giver, collusion or a contempt of Senate proceedings of some sort. The evidence would have been tainted as political and become worthless (which it did anyway). It would have looked like the Coalition ‘preparing’ evidence to give to itself in the Senate hearing/committee.
I think Keating was too kind. I agree that Turnbull’s judgement is often quite poor, usually when he thinks he can get an advantage maybe. But his continual aggression and gumption as a character trait sometimes appears to be brilliance.
Turnbull should never have gotten away with the $10m grant without intense scrutiny from media and parliament. But when you have no power in the houses and a media not too willing to hit Howard too hard, he got away with it. Then.
That too was a politically stupid move, but he got away with it.
I’m yet to see any evidence of Turnbull’s supposed brilliance.
Being a ruthless lawyer is not a hallmark of “brilliance”.
Could Brough go for Aston if a Hack gets Higgins???
Oz,
There’s a certain “brilliance’ to some one who pees on your leg and then convinces you it’s raining.
The weakness with Brough going anywhere is that he is thoroughly unelectable mainly because as a Howard minister he promised everything to everyone but regularly forgot to bring the chequebook.
Turnbull blew his only shot at Rudd, he wont get the chance again. He fired a blunderbuss from 500 meters away and missed by 100 meters.
The Liberal Party should really think about not letting Malcolm out at night. Like my cat.
Guess it depends on how you define ‘brilliance’. Select from the following:
1.great brightness; luster: the brilliance of a fine diamond.
2.excellence or distinction; conspicuous talent, mental ability, etc.
3.splendor, elegance, or magnificence: the brilliance of the court of Louis XIV.
4.Optics. that luminance of a body consisting of its saturation and brightness.
Guess people are implying the second, that Turnbull has talent and mental ability. I’m not sure that has much value at all if it isn’t tampered with sound judgment. It certainly doesn’t imply wisdom. In fact, without judgment, brilliance might even be a liability.
As a very frequent lurker and very occasional poster, I must congratulate the regular posters for their thought-provoking discussions/analyses of the most recent week in politics. Brilliant stuff!
Off topic but still re politics, and apologies if someone else has posted it, it seems Senator Fielding might now be able to add the US government to his “they’re wrong, I’m right” category.
I wonder how/if it might affect the Opposition’s stance on climate change etc. From the Huffington Post, House Passes Historic Climate Change Bill:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/climate-change-bill-may-h_n_221564.html
Well known Labor “hack” Dennis Shanahan in another pap piece on Rudd and the Government.
“Putting aside questions of right or wrong, justice or equity, Rudd’s performance in the past eight days has been a political tour de force that has changed the way he is perceived, the way his colleagues and government operate and laid the foundation for the next election”.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25695756-28737,00.html
I would have looked like collusion, which it was. They’re running a mile away from this now. It would have been worse a week ago. Grech was being depicted as the selfless, humble public servant trying to right a wrong. Now that we know he’s been leaking for a while, and to front benchers, and that his memory was “faulty”, even faked, his evidence is worthless, tainted. The public can’t ignore that Grech has thoroughly wasted himself as a reliable source because of his double-dealing. It wouldn’t have even gotten off the ground if Turnbull had confessed up front to dealing with him.
This is a stitch-up of the highest order and, as that sinks in, the public – already enamoured of Rudd who has been enjoying record popularity (and not wanting to think of themselves as fools for doigiving it to him) – will just get sourer against the Libs. If Turnbull stuffs up – and does anyone really believe he won’t be able to resist the next juicy temptation, or the one after that? – he’s history, and so is his party.
No amount of weasel words, convoluted explanations, pleas for parliamentary privelege about this will help Turnbull. The next time Turnbull opens his mouth the doubt will linger there in the public mind… “Is this just another Turnbull yarn? More blarney from the Deceiver In Chief?” He should just shut up and take his medicine.
But he won’t, will he?
Think there are a lot of Turnbull haters out there, he is just that sort of guy.
Fielding is doing what he is doing in search of niche votes and probably not for what he believes. He will look like a tool and fool, but then again tool and fool is no doubt a demographic. Maybe Fielding is going for the village idiot voting block.
Shanahan has returned to fine form.
Today he was claiming that the scrapping of GroceryChoice was akin to Howard’s promise to keep interest rates at record lows.
For some reason I can’t see the Liberals running ads with Rudd saying “We will make a website”.
For those who love a cultural cringe, our Steve Fielding is famous in the US.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html
Helen2 I’d be more inclined to suspect Fielding will come out and state he doesn’t believe the United States acutally exists than to admit to logic and reason…
and stop lurking, come on in, the water’s fine! (bit cold down Glen and GPs end at the minute though!)
It was truly a straws grasping moment; expect many of the same for the next 18 months (and then more again after the next election)
An otherwise puff piece in The Australian today about Godwin Grech being out of his depth, but something in the headline and the first couple of pars struck me as familiar.
Grech was intimately involved in a pork-barrelling effort by Howard to fund (i.e. rescue) the Western Bulldogs to the tune of $9 million dollars, as my comment #1169 in the last thread attests (there’s a reference to a letter Grech wrote to the subsequent inquiry… Annexure 3). He routinely gave personal, direct advice to Howard on the progress of the negotiations.
[#1169
GG involved intimately (as personal advisor to Howard) in Federal funding to Western Bulldogs (nee. Footscray) football club. Gives evidence that no gaming machines were to be located at redevelopment site (Annexure 3).
http://www.maribyrnong.vic.gov.au/Files/Witness_Statement_C_Rose.pdf
Maybe there was a bit more to Godwin than meets the eye.
Annabel Crabb (who I have always been a fan of – not like so many fairweather types here!!) absolutely nails MT in her column today.
Must reading for all:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/utes-dead-cats-and-cloud-seeding-20090626-czs6.html?page=-1
One of the worst written articles I have ever read.
The WSJ should stick to what it’s good at – defending corrupt, corporate fat cats.
Has anyone noticed all the articles about Rudd’s courage and leadership which were published AFTER we commented on that at length on Thursday night?
And there were also a few articles analysing Turnbull’s personality although they did not want to “indulge in pop psychology” which we certainly did. I suppose no journos were all that keen on referring to Turnbull as a narcissist.
I’m getting suspicious that we are not alone. :O
Oz,
I thought you’d like it!
Expect Milne in tomorrow’s column to quote a string of grocery prices at the time of the last election and today. He has told us previously he spent the election night taking prices of groceries, fuel and interest rates to throw at Labor if he got the chance.
Grog,
She’s probably wondering why she wrote a 6000 word essay on Turnbull when a few key words like arrogance, bullying, bluster and lack of judgement would have sufficed.
MJ’s doctor should be a very worried man. It’s only a matter of time before he is found and will be “assisting the police with their enquiries”.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25698006-601,00.html
Diogenes,
What’s the problem. MJ is no longer feeling pain.
GG
Doctors generally feel that it’s preferable to alleviate pain without killing the patient.
According to this report, Godwin has a large fan club.
http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com/2009/06/godwin-grech-celebrity-and-other.html
Oh please, don’t smear everyone here. Name names and quote them or avoid the general accusation all together to be fair to all those that don’t.
Milne floats and smells and is that word I cannot tell,
he writes with bilge and muck and utters things not to be heard
it is often said that its not the sewerage farm at end of road you can smell
but that great big long and fragrant word,
Mr Milne is of course our one and only floating….
bird.
Diogenes,
Ha! A likely story.
Who invented “Doctors” Bills then?
Not as suspicious as I currently am!
This is a request for help and advice from any Pollbludger who can help.
I have a strong suspicion that the IT people at “The Australian ” have compromised my computer with some sort of cookie or bug.
Since last night, whenever I try to log on to the OZ website from my bookmarks or click on the Australian header on an OZ article which I have accessed either through a link or Google News, I cannot access it and this website comes up.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/
Would someone mind checking if they too get directed straight to this site?
http://www.runbox.com/
Should I refer this to the AFP, because it looks clear to me that my computer has been compromised because of possibly being fairly outspoken and critical of the standard of commentary from the OZ, as have others who may be targeted.
I had a problem with my last computer also in that when refreshing PB in particular it often came up with an error page and the computer totally crashed not long after.
Any help and advice would be very welcome!
At the moment we seem to be getting contradictory messages from the conservatives and their supporters in the MSM.
It is believed by some that this whole “Utegate” issue is washing over most out there in voterland and will change nothing but believe Rudd will be seen in a new light – ruthless, another politician. Now which is it, voters are taking notice of it or are they not?
scorpio – I’ve tried those links and there’s no problem here.
Psephos @ 5
Part of your post has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
Those Republican “morons” have done more to advance the USA than your beloved Democrat party (I’ll concede FDR, though). Lincoln preserved the Union. Nixon brought China into the fold. Reagan ended the cold war. Bush II gave India and much of the Asia-Pacific region the courting it long deserved, solidified relations with China, kicked a despot out of Iraq and turned it into a functioning state as well as secured an additional base for US military projection.
Clinton fornicated his intern. Carter allowed his embassy to be overrun. Johnson lost a war. Kennedy had the Bay of Pigs and nearly started a nuclear holocaust.
That’s just for starters.
244 – Pat, given up on Australian politics ah? From your point of view I can understand that.
What’s with the Howard Govt. doing favours for a mate and giving Godwin Grech’s beloved footy team multi-millions.
How many phone calls did he get. How many private conversations did he get.
Did Howard personally speak with any other footy Club.
Better get Joe and Malcolm on to this favouritism pronto.
Good morning bludgers. That WSJ article shows how quickly a once-fairly-respectable paper goes downhill once Murdoch buys it.
“As the U.S. House of Representatives prepares to pass a climate-change bill, the Australian Parliament is preparing to kill its own country’s carbon-emissions scheme. Why? A growing number of Australian politicians, scientists and citizens once again doubt the science of human-caused global warming.”
Notice the cunning logical trick there. The question Why? Is followed by statement which, even it’s true (which it isn’t), is not the reason why the CPRS bill is facing defeat. The reason the CPRS bill is facing defeat is that both the Opposition (for purely political reasons) and the Greens (who want a tougher bill) are voting against it. It has nothing to do with people changing their minds about climate change. I’m not aware that any Senator has changed their mind about climate change.
Did Michael Jackson die…?
Well that is a habit I wouldn’t admit to. Porn site maybe, the Oz, oh the embarrassment.
The Oz has thousands of people slamming it, it couldn’t care as long as they visit their site or read their papers.
It is not the Oz, you have picked up one of those annoying hijacking things that redirect your browser. You could first delete your cookies then try again, try a different browser or use something like ‘hijackthis’ to find if something is redirecting you.
This is an amazing piece from the Senate economics comittee p21. So much for the tory argument that one dealer got special treatment.
Senator JOYCE—How many of your dealers have a senior Treasury official ringing up or sending emails
on their behalf to try and set them for finance?
Mr Delaney—On that occasion?
Senator JOYCE—Yes.
Mr Delaney—Hundreds. Previously? Unheard of.
Senator JOYCE—A senior Treasury official ringing up on their behalf?
Mr Delaney—Previously unheard of. On this occasion, hundreds.
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S12204.pdf
248 – The real question is did every other issue in the world resolve itself and thus become good news and not worth reporting on?
Paddy, Paddy, Paddy! So shrill. Tough week eh? No bother. While most of that hysterical blind partisan post doesn’t require response (though thanks for the chuckle), just quietly, one doesn’t ‘fornicate’ another person.
BH, there was a kerfuffle a while back after Rudd got in because Howard had promised about $10mil to spruce up Brookvale Oval at Manly. think it was Joe out demanding the dough even though it was the Libs not Labor that had porkbarrelled it
Thanks Gary, even when I click on the Australian Header on an OZ page that I “can” access through a link provided by another poster such as yourself, it still goes straight to the Run Box site but the address box is showing the Australian address in the address box.
This is surely very strange and not normal. Can anyone else suggest what may be happening?
#252
Is that puerile and unnecessary correction the best you can come up with?
Nah mate, but all it deserved.
I can’t see him mentioning interest rates. Fuel and grocery prices are about the same as late 2007 IMO although I don’t have any really old Safeway dockets to reference. If Milne has such dockets they’ll only be for the liquor section and I don’t think he’s going to mention those.
That article is a joke. Fielding is completely irrelevant to the CPRS debate because the bill simply can’t pass without the support of the Liberals.
Why oh why don’t US citizens realise what great Presidents GWB and Nixon were.
Looks like someone in the US agrees with Possum’s opinion of Michael Jackson.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE55P68O20090626
Patrick 244: The line about Republican morons was a small throw-away line in a larger post, which I hope you read. It was of course a reference to Bush II, who is a complete idiot and the worst president since at least Harding, maybe ever, in terms of the damage he did to the US and the world.
But I’m not a partisan of the Democratic Party in a historical sense. The Democrats were the party of slavery and secession. If I’d been an American, I would have voted Republican from Lincoln through to Teddy Roosevelt. It was only from Wilson onwards that the Democrats became the party of progress while the GOP became the party of reaction. The last Republican I could conceivably have voted for was Eisenhower, although I was hovering on the edge of supporting McCain until the onset of the GFC persuaded me that Obama was the better choice.
It was, by the way, Nixon who decided to pull the plug on Vietnam, not Johnson. Kennedy inherited the Bay of Pigs plan from the Republicans. Perhaps he should have called it off, but he wasn’t the first or last President to be misled by the Cuban exiles – just as Bush II was misled by the Iraqi exiles. He used the threat of nuclear war to force a Soviet backdown over Cuba, one of the great victories of the Cold War, which I would have thought you supported. That’s what the nuclear deterrent is all about, remember?
Vera – I’d forgotten that one. Goldman on 2SM (awful program 5-6am here) raved on about the Brookvale one.
Cursed Rudd uphill and down dale about renegging on John Howard’s promised money.
There are enough silver tails down that way to upgrade without Govt. help I reckon.
The scarf is on the telly – live on FoxFooty at 2.30 p.m. thank goodness. Didn’t get to see last week’s match live.
Well I didn’t smear eveyrone – I said “like so many” which is hardly definitive.
And yeah, I go through life marking down eveyrone’s comments here at PB so I can ensure every statment is cited and referenced.
If you haven’t bagged Annabel Crabb for being some right wing hack, then live long and prosper; you don’t need me to ensure you are not included in a statement.
The Onion has a photo of a young Michael Jackson and the headline “King of Pop Dead at 12″, which I think says it all.
Without being specific you did indeed.
Is that Grant Goldman BH? Is he still going around? He was a DJ on 2Day FM back in the early eighties.
As for Brookvale Oval, I don’t know anything about the issue, but I do remember Goldman commenting how he was a huge Manly fan back then.
Does this provide any illumination?
And thanks, BH, for your kind comments re the warthog link yesterday. Also Harry “Snapper” Organs, for your words, it is much appreciated.
Diogs,
Do you think Wideman will claim he’s a doctor who had his patient’s best interests at heart?
Geessshhh. Ping Annabel for making lovey dovey statements about Howard and you get doomed to a short and poverty striken life.
I’m willing to concede she has nice hair, a stunning smile and looks cute, if that makes any amends.
Other than that, I maintain my right to get cross with her when she says nice things about JWH.
GG
Wideman threatened to cut out Kiernan’s heart with his 6-inch knife. Perhaps he’s a cardiac surgeon?
I think you’ll survive.
Fair enough. And I maintain my right to flog you all with a wet lettuce leaf by saying you’re fairweather fans.
Oh, and if you don’t like her, feel free to live long and prosper as well
Yes Aristotle – how far up the Coast are you. He covers most of Mid North Coast, Tweed and into Qld. Has been in radio forever and is now 60 I think or near it.
Manly announcer at Brookvale games and relishes the fact he didn’t finish High School “but look how far I’ve come – I’m a big time Sydney shockjock” personality.
He is a very, very strong climate denier – says CPRS is only a tax grab and global warming is a myth. He appears to be a bloke who doesn’t do any research altho people lately have been sending him stuff. Puts the boot into Rudd whenever he can altho he did say he voted for him (I don’t really believe that).
He and some other blokes have organised rallies around NSW and Toowoomba (I think) re stuff the League of Nations would put out. Meetings have been held in Taree but I refuse to speak to anyone about them.
It’s a bit like me listening to Price for an hour – better to know what they are saying and then send them off some factual stuff refuting their mythical pronouncements.
I’m a grumpy old lady when it comes to uneducated shockjocks not bothering to let the audience have factual stuff.
Grog,
You seem to be getting a dose of the “Bobs”.
League of Nations?
Gorg – I have a love/hate relationship with Annabel’s writing. Sometimes I laugh my head and other times I think it’s ridiculous. Never thought that with Matt Price who I think Annabel is trying to ape.
My only concern with her admiration of Turnbull is that she knows his character flaws could be very dangerous and yet she finds it exciting watching and listening to him.
Her tweets appear to be for Malcolm from what I have read so far.
It’s a bit like John Hewson – he might be a nice bloke but he has had some failures as a businessman and yet the media love to go to him for comment and analysis.
I’d rather here from people who have proved their worth and have high business ethics.
“Twitter Creator On Iran: ‘I Never Intended For Twitter To Be Useful’”
275 Woops – ‘hear’ not ‘here’
Right, BH. No I live on the south coast, so I don’t hear him. I haven’t heard him since about 1983, or thereabouts.
Psphos – who am I thinking of. Not League of Nations – that’s something I did in Primary School after the War. Is it League of Rights? or somesuch.
Anyway the mob with the really far out views.
Yeah, I admit she has some better days than others. Price was brilliant (and I recall he too used to get his fair share of “right wing hack” comments).
But Gorg? Not sure if that’s going to catch on!
You are not missing anything Aristotle.
Australian League of Rights. A far-right group created by the late Eric Butler.
280 – Gorg – in time, it might catch on but I like Grog better. Darn keyboard!!
In fact we have save a really nice bottle of red to have tonight with dinner – after I have watched the Swannies annihilate the Crows. Altho I suspect I will be drowning my sorrows with it.
Yep – that’s the one Psephos. The group have a website which I won’t refer to but they get some weird ideas about the Govt. destroying their way of life etc. etc.
Goldman has been a lot quieter about it since the election – I think he may have been ticked off by management because of complaints. He now only announces where the next meeting is between 5-6a.m. Don’t know whether he talks about it after that because we go to local station and I go to the only other one thing here, ABC Local or RN.
Off to watch the Swannies. Hope all your teams win.
Barcelona News telling it like it is
http://www.barcelonanews.net/story/512213
Howard will be jealous! He only got a trinket from Bush, Pete’s got the real thing.
http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=583641
He’s actually been on radio since at least the late 60’s and of course his son Mike is more famous than pa as the voiceover guy on Big Brother
“Gary Glitter to adopt Michael Jackson’s kids. Says he can fill the hole left by their father.”
Good to see you acknowledge and accept my point Grog.
“What a coincidence Fawcett and Jackson dying on same day. One played with Majors, the other with Minors.”
Nobody listens to 2SM, who cares what Grant Goldman says?
Tasteless, but funny!
What a humiliation for News Ltd today, the likes of Shanahan and Kelly having to praise Rudd and bash Turnball. The poor dears must be in extreme agony!
The OO this morning was indulging in some digging,or whatever about the Ipswich connection,dont know if it was the like French Connection or they having comprehensively lost the E Mail fight,which I still think has NEWS LTD fingerprints all over it.
So I assume it will be business as usual for Murdock’s minions in having a go at Rudd and the Govt,Ackerman is still saying with is black although in his alternate universe its most likely bright pink.
The Swans, a team very few in Sydney care about, and when the AFL put the new team in they both will go broke as I dont think the rest of the AFL clubs will to to happy to watch a $100 million or so go down the drain,followed soon after by more,for no return,because if the AFL are silly enough to think they will get more money from TV rights over games that in NSW and QLD just don,t rate,they are sillier that I thought they were.
Just something else I wonder how long it will take the AFL cover up machine to sweep under the carpet the rape allegations and pay offs by Carlton,and whether the 4 Corners mob,ACA and TT and various Newspapers will be off to Vic to find out,some how I very much doubt it.
The 24 hour no joke period seems to be up.
How did they know it was time for bed at Neverland
When the big hand was on the little hand.
It looks like News Ltd is not going to give up very easily in trying to find some link or other to try and tie Rudd to “any” hint of impropriety. Someone has been very busy and come up with? Not very much it seems. They should be “VERY” careful that they don’t make him real mad.
Rudd is starting to show just what “CAN’ happen if he gets a trifle upset. If Murdoch wants to take him on, I am sure Rudd, now with the vehicle of Government at his disposal, will more than accommodate him.
This is nothing but a lot of “tosh” and hot air with no substance. Well worth a read though to see just how desperate they are now becoming.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25697090-601,00.html
Did the Telegraph ever report the fact that Rudd addressed them directly during QT on Monday, looking directly up into the Gallery, attacking them over the publication of the text of the “email” without mentioning Rudd and Charlton’s denials?
It is speculated that MJ’s doctor gave him an injection. Maybe MJ was not feeling himself at the time.
Desperate indeed. I’m sure that they would find an order of magnitude more significant connections between businessmen and politicians if they investigated the Melbourne Club. But they wouldn’t do that, would they!
Murdoch journos, sock puppets of an old man. Too gutless to find jobs where they dont have to stroke an old man’s desires.
Thanks for the amusing quotes Evan, although like TP, I deleted the Oz from my Favourites list long ago. That site almost never gets a click from me.
To be fair, one positive coment I will give to a News Ltd publication – the Western Australian. A few weeks ago I was in Perth for work and got a copy in my hotel. It wasn’t The Times but it struck me that it had improved in quality of writing and impartiality since I had seen it last. I read several articles without finding any obvious mistakes, or pandering to mouth-frothing right-wing lunes. The new editor deserves some credit I think. Maybe I was just lucky.
Liberal Vanessa Goodwin to contest by-election for Tassie upper house seat of Pembroke:
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2009/06/27/81381_tasmania-news.html
Seat was vacated by Allison Ritchie (Labor) jumping/being pushed after being found to have employed numerous family members on staff.
Nominations close July 9. By-election August 1.
The West isn’t a News Ltd Publication, but Kerry Stokes has quite a large stake in it, and have replaced their odious editor Paul Armstrong, with former Sunday Times Editor Brett McCarthey.
Thanks Frank; then Brett McCarthey deserves some compliments IMO. At least The West seems better written now.
261
The victor of the Cuban missile crisis was not necessarily the Americans. Having the Soviet missiles on Cuba was a bit of an ambit claim. Protecting the Cuban communist regime was one the main aims and that was a victory for the Soviets. The Soviets successfully violated the Munro doctrine and this has annoyed the Americans to no end. There have been no more Bay of Pigs type invasion attempts on Cuba and the US has done nothing more than the trade embargo and fail to assassinate Castro many times.
I have been and am, still not impressed with Annabelle Crabb, she tries to be a serious political journalist, a satirist and a comedienne.
She fails at all three.
Have to disagree ruawake; I quite like Crabb’s writing. Its a bit quirky so it won’t please some, but from her first descriptions of Ruddbot to recent Tales of the Ute, I think she tries to be impartial too. Personal preference of course.
New additions to Aussie English from this site
http://cowracommunitynews.com/viewnews.php?newsid=3010&id=64
[gretched] – you have been fed information which leads you to believe you will be able to launch a full frontal attack on a notable opponent with impunity. Later you find the information to be based on false information leaving you with egg on your face. The notable opponent you choose to attack can range from the Prime Minister down.
[double gretched] – you have been fed enough information to believe you can attack a pair of notable opponents with impunity. Again, you will find the information to be false and you will be left with a double dose of egg on your face, and neither a scalp on your belt. Opponents can range down from a Prime Minister or a Federal Treasurer.
It has been reported that both gretching and double gretching can be erased if you are prepared to give up the use of the usual Commonwealth car pool vehicles and adopt an elderly Mazda ute as your official transport until the next election. Apparently, to be really effective, the utility should be hired from John Grant Motors in Queensland and come complete with Vote 1 Kevin Rudd signs already affixed to the back.
Of course if you take this course of action to atone it means you have been
[triple gretched] – and there is no known cure for the triple form, other than resignation.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/27/2610326.htm?section=justin
The ABC could not help themselves. Hockey – Jockeying.
Sloppy Joe as a jockey would surely raise the ire of animal protection groups.
ruawake, That’s what I’d call a handicap
Hockey jockeying is not a pretty sight in so many ways.
BTW, has the OO caught on that Grant lives in Rudd’s electorate and may have even voted for him, just so he could get special treatment!
What is it with Hockey and pies?
“You know what, the only leadership I’m interested in is helping people to have a better quality of life, focussing on growing the pie, getting the economy out of difficult times, that’s what leadership’s about, it’s about doing, not saying,” he said.
I’m not really sure what ‘growing the pie’ means?
I can visualise a cartoon of the Libs leadership race.
Malcolm out in front on a race horse – with a broken leg.
Joe on a heffalump – eating a pie.
Tony on a penny-farthing – peddling furiously.
Jule on a mule – facing the wrong way.
ruawake @ 309
“I have been and am, still not impressed with Annabelle Crabb, she tries to be a serious political journalist, a satirist and a comedienne.
She fails at all three.”
Ru, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Thanks for saving me describing what a featherweight journo A.C. is. Of course, they adore her on the “Insiders”.
314
And Pyne in his jockey silks preening himself in a full length mirror?
All chasing St Kev in his ute and trying to dodge the moles.
Seems my call about “most” here not being fans of A.C. was pretty close to the mark!
You guys are far too harsh – compare her work to Kerr’s daily “House Rules”, and she comes out looking pretty good (ok faint praise).
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25690441-7583,00.html
So where is News Ltd heading to with this “unhealthy obsession” with trying to bring down Swan if what Shannahan says here is “although Swan gave special treatment to Grant and misled parliament, his actions were in no way dishonest, illegal, corrupt or designed to give him any gain or preferment.”
And yet a little further down we get this, “There was no doubt at the most senior levels of the Rudd government that Swan was in dreadful trouble and that Labor faced the prospect of going to the winter break after losing its second minister within a month.” How the blazes would Shanners know this. There would be no one in the Labor Party that would confide in “HIM”!
News Ltd and the Coalition are going to run on this for the foreseeable future. I have absolutely no idea whether they think that if they bang away on it enough and long enough, that they will eventually break through OR, they have nothing in the locker and this is as good as anything to occupy their time and column inches!
Wonderful image ruawake. Swanney’s got to be in the ute with Kev – not sure that he’s up to though – maybe leaning out of the window looking back at the pack and crying out “You morons!”
Of course there would. Most politicians will give background to almost anyone in the media.
It’s not Crabbe’s political slant that I don’t like. It’s her frothiness. Everything is tennis afternoon gossip, girlish giggles, nothing is serious, everything is a joke. Politicians are just kiddies playing in her personal sandpit.
I believe she tried to do a serious article on Turnbull recently, but she’d long lost me by then. I didn’t read it.
Crabbe needs to get over the colourful writing and the aren’t-the-all-naughty-boys approach before she can ever get me to respect her more professional attempts at writing.
Shanners is NOT “almost everyone”, surely?
This is what I call, taking a “real” interest in your hobby!
[A Canadian suspected of heading a North American paedophilia ring has been arrested in Mexico in possession of four million photographs and videos of children shown naked or striking suggestive poses.
The suspect, Arthur Lelland Sayer, "was caught red-handed at his home in Tijuana, Baja California [close to the US border] with a large number of photos and videos that were stored on over a dozen hard drives,” Mexico City’s public prosecutor said in a statement Thursday.]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/27/2610266.htm?section=justin
Four. her hair style. desperately seeking crabby.
319
They hate the taste of humble pie and are determined to string this out to avoid being seen as losers. It’ll drop off their radar but will be mentioned every so often when Swan is seen to be in a small pickle over some other matter. Never, ever will they admit that they failed to successfully prosecute their case
BB,
Good point well made. Crabbe trades on her journalistic credentials to be a gossip girl columnist. You are never quite sure where she stands.
Compare her to Lenore Taylor or Michelle Gratten and you see straight away she does not cut it.
Vanessa Goodwin choosing to contest the Pembroke by-election is a bit of a surprise, I think. It’s such a safe Labor seat that the odds of a Lib getting up would have to be pretty low, and Goodwin’s reaching the point of shifting from rising-star-who-hasn’t-found-a-seat-yet to perennial candidate.
Diog
Tony Delroy is having a discussion on narcissism on Monday night.
There’ll be Rudd haters out there in Labor who’d be champing at the bit to do pull him down a peg or two.
Swan only misled parliament if you go into the minutae and pick phone calls (number of, furation of) against emails (number of, length of) as the guage of fairness. It’s too stupid for words. They found the one thing Swan didn’t do for others and unfavourably weighed that against all the things he did do for others.
As Shanahan points out Swan did not receive any benefit, nor did Grant. What he did was in no way unusual, compared to the real corruption of, say, $10 million in the bank for a dodgy rainmaking contraption against departmental advice, or $8 million for the Western Bulldogs. The hacks all know this. They’re just being bitchy in trying to get Swan on what amounts to a technicality, and even then it’s only barely arguable.
You can’t be absolutely fair to everyone, if if you try. The entire time of a minister and/or his staff would be taken up adding columns of time-on-phone figures and lines-of-email figures, how many times he or she had shaken hands with someone, whether he or she smiled, whether the person was a donor etc. etc. It’s a fairytale that Shanahan is trying to foist on his readers that what Swan did for Grant is in any way dodgy, and his subsequent description of that as being “nothing out of the ordinary” is some kind of dark misleading of the House.
Don’t they realise they’re just making it harder for everyone – including themselves – by pushing this line?
I’m afraid Grattan doesn’t cut it for me either. She’s been doing it by the numbers for a long time now.
BB at least she doesnt whine as much as Lenore *rolls eyes*…
Sorry BH, but mine did…
All MPs know that keeping in good with Gallery journalists by giving them background is a good insurance policy against the day when they are in trouble of one kind or another. An MP who said “I won’t talk to Murdoch press hacks ever” would just be asking for trouble. Shanahan, Oakes, Milne, Grattan, Tingle, etc, can talk to just about anyone they want, regardless of what horrible stuff they’ve just written.
You old cranks. One pro-Crabb here. I often have a chuckle at her, and think she uses her style quite deftly to capture a certain part of Canberra and present it for a wide audience. There has to be a spectrum in the commentariat, and it is voices like hers which are often a way in for those who aren’t as enraptured by the process as most here, as well as a way out for those who have (briefly) had enough of whatever malarkey is going on.
BB,
Regardless of your opinion of the quality of the jornalism, Gratten is a journalist. Whereas Crabbe is a personality with a jornalism shtick.
Scorpio #319
I don’t know the internal ethics of the ALP too well, but if anyone had long term plans on the position of Treasurer, wouldn’t they be partial to briefing some media on Swan?
I’d certainly expect this behaviour from the Libs
Annabelle can make a point in a way that I would listen to…she also doesn’t appear to be wedded to any side of politics
lenore on the other talks at me like I haven’t done my homework, or left my bike out in the rain or something
The only columnist I think is worth reading just because they wrote it is Jack the Insider.
Squiggle,
Who to believe has your best interests at heart:
Your mum
Your fantasy girlfriend.
Putting aside debates about Crabb specifically, I quite like the use of humour in journalism if well done. We all take it too seriously sometimes, and the ute affair was such a farce that satire was appropriate. John Clarke is my favourite. The piece on Turnbull last week was both funny and almost painfully accurate. I quite liked Mike Carlton’s columns in the SMH too before his departure on grounds of telling management the truth – a hanging offence in far too many organisations
For those that would prefer Tanner to Swan in the Treasures position, I gather it is because Tanner is a better media performer and debater.
There cant be much difference between them otherwise and all the reports that we have read so far suggest that Swan has really made himself a diligent hard working student of Treasury and, is learning his stuff, as they all must (should).
It make no difference anyway as Tanner is out there all the time talking finance in any case. You would also be wasting all that time and training and development if you moved Swan. He is becoming a strong Parliamentary performer and getting better media wise.
For media gigs they can interchange Tanner and Swan anyway, and share them around.
Every day of Parliament like the last week underlines how much Matt Price is missed.
If you were a public servant, looking for career advancement. Would you take the job in Treasury or Finance?
If you answered Treasury – do not pass go – go directly to immigration.
It has been a of pipe dream of the Opposition to get rid of Swan but if this week was an example of their water tight case against him, they will be waiting a long time before they see the back of Swan. It was actually one of the poorest cases against anybody in politics for a long time and why the News Ltd papers got excited about the prospects of success is beyond me.
Labor has just regained the Treasury Benches after a long, long, time in the wilderness. Going by the frenetic efforts expended in getting there, and it is apparent that both sides of politics believe “IT” is the place to be not in opposition, then it would be foolish indeed to have a death wish and undermine your own side now that the holy grail of government has been reached.
Any Labor Member willing to use tactics like you suggest to further their own ambitions within the Government, would not want to be caught out by their colleagues sabotaging everyone else’s opportunity to experience the spoils of office.
BK #343 – Well said, spot on with that comment
TP
But wouldn’t you want Tanner there instead of Swan if you are looking at a long-term Treasurer, eg three terms. It would decrease the stress levels of everyone in the country. I think Swan has tried really hard and done a great job. I expect he is heavily reliant on advice from Henry though.
Are any of our health authorities advising people at risk from H1N1 ‘flu to get a Pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine (PPSV23) ?
If not, why not.
GG#340
You’ve got me there, I can’t choose one over the other
ruawake
In SA, they’re all telling everyone to get the Pneumovax jab. I saw the figures recently and lots more South Aussies have had the seasonal flu than swine flu. They’re similar in lethality but they say the Pneumovax doesn’t work on swine flu.
Here is an articole that tells you everything, nothing or something in between about Australian politics.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25696301-5012980,00.html
Diog
Interim guidance for use of 23-valent pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine during novel influenza A (H1N1) outbreak
June 9, 2009
U.S. ACIP recommendations for use of pneumococcal polysaccacharide vaccine.
Pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine (PPSV23)
Universal vaccination
All adults 65 years of age and older
Medical Indications
Persons 2 through 64 years of age who have one or more of the following long-term health problems:
* chronic cardiovascular disease (congestive heart failure and cardiomyopathies)
* chronic pulmonary disease including chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and emphysema
* diabetes mellitus
* alcoholism
* chronic liver disease, including cirrhosis
* cerebrospinal fluid leaks
* functional or anatomic asplenia including sickle cell disease and splenectomy
* immunocompromising conditions including HIV infection, leukemia, lymphoma, Hodgkin’s disease, multiple myeloma, generalized malignancy, chronic renal failure, nephrotic syndrome; those receiving immunosuppressive chemotherapy (including corticosteroids); and those who have received an organ or bone marrow transplant
Speaking of satirists:
‘The last weeks of the winter session have been more damaging to the Rudd Labor Government than the Coalition, no matter how you slice it.’
Simple Pies-man (I wont link him) is a one man circus at the moment. Usually he just annoys me with his stupidity, but these contortions are just hilarious.
pancho,
The Beatles described Piers best.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25696301-5012980,00.html
Oops,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yNcE8c3j2M
GG
The Beatles described Turnbull best as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q90dFGFqzuo&feature=related
Elise “Show me the” Mooney??? oh God.
I thought Turnbull’s theme tune was “I’m a Loser’ by The Beatles
359 addendum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KynpC1e9I9E
Like his father-in-law before him,
The first sighting of Michael Jackson has just been reported in the suburb of Mars, Jackson, Alabama.
God you’re an idiot Diogenes. Of course Pneumovax doesn’t work on swine flu you moron.
Diogenes replies:
Yes, I expressed myself very poorly there. I meant that people who die from swine flu don’t usually get Strep pneumoniae as well so it would only provide limited protection. Although people in those groups would be at higher risk anyway and should have the Pneumovax irrespective of swine flu.
On Irish betting site, listed under Dole Derby
I think Rudd’s odds are a bit short
http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_type&category=SPECIALS&disp_cat_id=&ev_class_id=33&ev_type_id=11685&ev_oc_grp_ids=111066&bir_index=
Their who’ll be PM at the end of the year are fun
Bob Brown 150/1
Steve Fielding 400/1
Finns
I’m hanging out for the Elvis Presley-Michael Jackson double bill “Comeback Tour”.
vera
They’ve also got an election before the end of the year as evens.
Diog,
spooky,
Elvis is worth more after his death, it looks like ditto for his son-in-law. Is there a hope for you yet?
Vera, the odds for Merkel look a bit long considering how the German economy has tanked and the sharp rise in unemployment. They were very slow with the stimulus packages too. We’ll soon find out because an election is due in Germany September this year, I believe.
Dio, it is an Irish betting market
steve, they probably read the Murdoch press a week ago when they said Rudd would have to resign
Finns
If all those people who went out and bought all his albums making him number 1 through to 16 on the bestsellers had’ve bought them while he was still alive, he probably wouldn’t be dead of what will inevitably be an Anna Nicole Smith-Heath Ledger style overdose.
It’s a sad irony.
vera
They might be very clever and have got an opinion from a constitutional lawyer that the Senate’s vote to delay voting on the ETS constitutes the basis for a DD if the ETS doesn’t pass within 3 months from now.
372 – Am inclined to agree with you Dio
It will be v interesting though to find out just how many CD etc he sold this week. Will easliy be the record for the most music sold by one single performer/band in a week. After all back when Elvis died, the record stores would have ran out of albums. They don’t run out on itunes.
Amigo Vera, at least Berlusconi will always leave with a BIG smile on his face, dear old Papi.
So how long before the Catholic Church calls for MJ to be made a Saint?
Tom
Merkel and the FDP are a shoe in to win the next German federal election in September ill eat my hat if she’s not still Chancellor…
Small problem, MJ is a Jehovah’s Witness
Re CD Sales, I’ll bet a lot of those buying MJ’s Albums are buying the more recent remastered versions.
Dio, I’d like an election for Christmas
Fins, he’s a dirty old Papi
Go Wallabies, eat them froggies.
Glen, when do the crocodile tears over broken promises and grocery prices begin? It’s an old tactic from the Courier Mail and LNP. When are the Federal Libs and National News Ltd papers going to catch up?
Dio – If MJ could be broke on the back of 750 million album sales, I reckon he’d have made it there with 800 too.
I dunno steve, just tell it like it is, a non-core promise…big deal.
Further sighting of MJ reported, this time in Cebu, Philippines.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/SE%2BAsia/Story/STIStory_396126.html
Finns
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Lifestyle/Story/STIStory_396013.html
Breaking News:
Andrew Charlton confesses in faking the fake email.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/explosive-twist-charlton-comes-clean/
Rudd is preparing a Presser to announce his resignation. Gillard is rushing back from overseas to take over.
Does anyone know who Jack the Insider is?
His blog comments during the Ozcar email scam were very well informed. His style does not fit any journalist I am familiar with. Is he perhaps a gestalt?
Oh Dear, Glen. In Queensland this is the stuff of high fives from state LNP politicians, large dips in polls, sweating, breathless talk of a change of government and hysteria from local journalists.
Somehow that email from Andrew Charleton to Punch is a fake.
Finns,
Take note of the opening sentence of the “article”
You got him Frank!
Frank
And we all know Finns wrote the email anyway.
Psephos (290). Gary Glitter and Michael Jackson are fair game, but please keep the kids out of it. Smacks of children overboard.
Glen
The CDU/CSU will almost certainly win, however there is still hope for a repeat of the grand coalition, rather than having those dangerous business types in the FDP back in. The SDP will make a better juinor partner than the FDP and personally I hope they do go back into grand coalition because the more they associate with the CDU the better the Greens and Left will perform.
Diog, yes, i did but mr. postman did not turn up, so someone had to fake it for me:
so please Mr. Postman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nuEY6fQgzk
Oh cmon the SPD are a joke and being in opposition would probably be best for it…being in government means you cant really attack the government…
Actually the reason the FDP are doing so well THM is that they have been the ‘official opposition’ to the Grand Coalition and hence they’re riding high in the polls in the mid to high teens so i wouldnt put it past being a Merkel Guido coalition…
The Left should just call themselves a Communist Party and be done with it IMHO…
THM, latest Betfair prices for a coalition
CDU/CSU and FDP is $1-66
CDU/CSU and SPD is $5-80
http://sports.betfair.com/
The odds speak for themselves…
If the SPD go into coaltion with Merkel again that will be the end of them. It was a bad idea in 2005 and the results are now clear. People vote either for or against incumbent governments. They won’t vote for a party which tries to be both government and opposition.
The Americans lose another war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/world/middleeast/26maliki.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper
Adam the only trouble was that in 2005 there was little choice other than a Grand Coalition…
The Greens wouldnt join a FDP/CDU/CSU coalition
and the SPD wouldnt joing a Green/Left Coalition
It was the only option but it has caused their vote to drop to the low 20s
I suspect the CDU/CSU coalition with the FDP will be the best for both sides…
Yeah, right, Tony. I get it. Turnbull just doing his job, not hysterical. Rudd, not doing his job but hysterical.
I think Rudd showed that he certainly could handle pressure, Tony. Not sure about your man though. I am sure I saw an odd flinch or two and I don’t think it can turn out better for Malcolm. On the contrary, there is a way to go yet and I don’t think the results will be all that flash for Mr Turnbull, Tony.
But, Tony, you are leaving out the fact that Mr Grech is “your” man and it could safely be assumed he was operating under instructions to state that he thought that Mr Grant was “special” and that his case needed special treatment especially a well highlighted “trail” back to Swan’s office via his home fax. Otherwise, your mob wouldn’t have any thing that they could dish up on Mr Swan and Mr Rudd to accuse them of cronyism or misleading Parliament in relation to same’
So Tony, this is what it has come down to now, has it? This one won’t run either and I suspect that all you lot will be left with is an empty feeling in your stomachs and Tony, watch out you don’t stir up the wasps nest too much, make sure if you do that you have a clear escape path and can run fast.
Labor wasps that are stirred up too much are known to get “VERY” angry and don’t give up very easily in their determination to extract revenge. Pass the sauce bottle please!
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/rudds_mate_got_red_carpet_treatment/
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Libs copy this and have it blown up to A3 size and pin iy on the walls of all their offices.
And Abbott’s reply. Classic. I hope he keeps this up for the next six weeks!
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/rudds_mate_got_red_carpet_treatment/
Who does Maliki think made possible the elections that put him in power?
What in hells name is a tongue wink?
is it some sort of Fib secret handshake?
It seemed that way at the time. But in retrospect I think Schroeder should have just stayed in office as a minority SPD-Greens government, and dared the PDS to vote with the right to put him out. The problem was that Schroeder hates Lafontaine so much he wasn’t willing to be in a position of dependence on Lafontaine’s goodwill.
I don’t think there will be a stone unturned in the quest to get Rudd now. I listened to that tripe by Alan Jones and I think it will become clearer in coming days that my prophesy a day or so ago that the Conservative MSM and the Libs are going to be galvanised and scrape the bottom of the pond slime from now on.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/rudds_mate_got_red_carpet_treatment/
With the US HOR passing their ETS bill, I’m one step closer to winning my bet with all the Bludgers who said Rudd would do more about CC than Obama.
Sadly, I can’t remember who said Obama would be even more feeble than Rudd but I’m sure you know who you are. Please don’t make me go back and trawl through the records.
I’m sure the name “Finns” will come up as will “GG”. And Ronster was definitely one. I’m disappointed that Emailgate didn’t induce Ron to visit us.
That’s rich coming from a guy whose leader has made his career out of networking.
Heiner again? Oh for goodness sake. Libs, look forward to 20 years in Opposition, cos that’s where you are headed.
There were a number of comments similar to this. It appears that rusted on Libs are upset that Rudd is making himself home at the Government Dispatch Box.
How dare he! Doesn’t he realise that that is Mr Howard’s Box and Mr Rudd is only PM by default and shouldn’t really even be there. How dare he. It’s clear they are all still in denial and can’t come to the realisation that times have moved on.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/rudds_mate_got_red_carpet_treatment/P20/
I found it fascinating going through the comments and Abbott’s responses. Many opportunities were provided to trip up but you have to give it to Tony, he is a little bit smarter than some people give him credit for!
If the Greens had any brains Diogs they would have supported the CPRS.
So what reductions is Obama making? 4% on 1990 levels.
Whippy-woo!
Funnily enough, the same as what Labor is proposing!
Isn’t Labor 5-15 on 2000? I don’t know how the two equate but would be interested.
Game set and match
5-25 now I think?
Australia increased its emissions by 42% between 1990 and 2007: http://www.azocleantech.com/details.asp?newsID=5794.
If we pluck out (and that’s all I’m doing) a 22% increase between 1990 and 2000, then a 4% reduction on 1990 is still well in front of 15% on 2000 levels.
Sorry, those are partial figures.
The only worthwhile comparison is like and like – guaranteed cuts.
The US’ cuts are 17% on 2005 levels, according to Centre, that equates to 4% on 1990.
Labor’s proposed guaranteed cuts are 5% on 2000, 4% on 1990.
Arguing about 4, 5 or even 15% is sad and pointless though, since it’s any target below 40% is window dressing.
So why didn’t the Libs examine it when they were in government??
Rudd’s been around for enough time and he was Opposition leader for a year.
Plenty of time for Tony to get a enquiry up!
OK, Oz: what cuts to your present lifestyle are you prepared to make to combat climate change?
Or do you think it’s possible for everyone to keep living the way they are AND make the kind of massive cuts you’re talking about?
If the second, please explain.
pancho
Changes in land clearing account for most of the ups and downs in Australia’s emissions in the last 20 years. It’s actually very hard to make any fair comparisons because of that.
Obama is 17 percent by 2020, and 83 percent by 2050, based on 2000 levels.
That’s Change We Can Believe In
Abbott just confirming has pre election behavior of living below the sewer. I think it was Howard that refused to let the Heiner documents get tabled, it was even too low a thing for him. Abbott knows it is a nothing thing now, and that the documents were not destroyed as some other slime jock kept reporting and was the basis of his smears. If he is really interested in the thing he should go to the Qld govt.
I think it is why Abbott always fails when he is up against women, he cant slime and malign them like he can the guys without making the entire electorate sick.
Abbott is revealing that the Coalition are throwing the towel in, that they got nothing, no talent, no policy, nothing and only now personal smearing only.
But that should easily dealt with by Rudd, if he simply points out their smearing at every opportunity – it will begin to stick if they keep it up.
Which goes to prove the only public palatable face for the Coalition is remarkably Nelson.
zoomster
I think Tony is talking about Qld, not the Feds. The matter was a State one and the Feds don’t have jurisdiction.
And Heiner was in 1989. The statute of limitations is well and truly up on it for almost any offence.
Diogenes, they are talking Feds. It is the antiRudd smear of choice.
Diog, CC is not my forte. So Obi will have it easy from me. i will leave it to amigo ronnie. he will come back to haunt you.
Anyway, what’s wrong with tennis player where you have a full body massage, rub down, ice treatment between sets.
steve
I’m struggling to see how a Federal Government has the power to investigate shredding or whatever may or may not have happened 20 years ago in the Goss’ office.
Zoomster, you asked me this question something like a month ago, and I demonstrated, with references to numerous studies and publications exactly where and how cuts of 40% could be made generally due to policy changes and the implementation of existing technologies, as well as lifestyle changes – particularly in the areas of cutting down on energy usage and changing transport patterns.
I think it’s possible to make cuts of that order without changes in culture by the community at larger but that’s the hardest way to go about it and not something I would endorse.
“Cuts” to present lifestyle is the strange way of phrasing it, given it’s negative connotations, especially since it’s very possible to keep quality of life as it is just by doing things different. Installing solar panels and solar hot water systems, reducing household waste and catching public transport more often are all things that can reduce emissions significantly and don’t “cut” anything out of your lifestyle.
Personally, I don’t think there’s much more I can do live sustainably given I’ve worked on minimising my environmental footprint by installing renewable energy and not owning a car, among other things. The bulk of my emissions relate to the flying that I do, but even taking that into account, my footprint is something like a 1/3 of the Australian average.
Why we’re talking about *my* personal contribution, I don’t know. Nor do I know why we’re talking I think people can do. My point was that if people don’t, we’re rooted.
If the globe doesn’t cut by 40% I mean.
They have already had two Senate Enquiries about it. I think they would like to have another one because of that shonky, so-called, Report by five prominent Jurors!
The reason they won’t is because there is nothing there and they would be totally embarrassed by the result.
It is far better for them for it to be stirred along by the likes of Pies and Jones, quietly putting out the smear in the traditional manner of the pond slime tactics the Libs have become so accustomed to.
Finns
My theory on Ronster is that he’s still working out how to spin Rudd and Wong’s ETS as being the best CC policy in the world and he’s really struggling. We left straight after Rudd threw him under the bus with his 5% target.
Either that or he took up that offer to be Hillary’s top negotiator in the Israel-Palestine Peace Talks.
Whoops. Should be “He left…”
Diogenes, it refers back to when Rudd was Chief of staff to a former Queensland Premier and the hope of the right is they can niggle Rudd over his past. They tried it with his childhood, Scores, etc etc. Just another piece of mud they like to throw around.
Heiner, Utes etc. are all evidence of the cargo cult which seems to have overtaken the Opposition – the belief that they will be able to get back into power not on the strength of a great deal of hard thinking about and hard work on policy, but as a result of something which will sink the ALP with one shot, like the one from the Bismarck which sank HMS Hood. Such an approach is just sheer laziness, really. It is not a very good strategy to make it as clear as Mr Turnbull does that he wants the government to be a failure, when most people, in the midst of a global financial crisis and for purely selfish reasons, would like to have a government which succeeds, regardless of its political colour.
Incidentally, I know some people who were working in Parliament House at the time of the Petrov Royal Commission, and the way in which Mr Turnbull has been carrying on reminds me quite a bit of their descriptions of how Dr Evatt went off the planet at the time.
He should have just asked our friendly PB rusted ons. They managed to go from defending Rudd’s first policy to what was effectively Turnbull’s in the space of a few hours.
I remember that day with particular hilarity.
pedant
God forbid that the Liberals would actually come up with a policy!! Imagine that. They’d have to sit down and agree on something except voting against what Rudd says.
Pedant, I think the Liberals have time-travelled back to 1975 and are just waiting for the dismissal to fill in the missing gap in their fantasy.
After reading a heap of Abbott’s blogs and comments/replies, I have come to the conclusion that it operates on similar lines to last Friday’s Senate Hearing. ie, It is “stage managed” in a similar way.
Lib staffers and operatives are given the basic text of what to post which outlines the anti-government, anti-Rudd points they wish to make, no matter how far out and wrong and Abbott replies giving credence to the points but only to the extent that he doesn’t leave himself open to any accusation that can be used against him or the Opposition. Hence, they are suitably brief and almost innocuous!
Try and prove me wrong, Tony. I would like to think that Labor could take a closer look at this operation and call them on it!
pedant
Howard’s policy was like that too.
His legacy still infects the very bowels of the fibs
That’s exactly correct. They still think the 2007 election was a horrible accident, and that the voters will correct their mistake as soon as they realise that Rudd is a complete phony and shonk, which for the Libs is self-evidently true. So they try every smear they can think of, or that the Murdoch press can think of for them, and get very angry when the smears don’t work.
Their other problem is that on the three big issues of the day – the GFC, IR and climate, they are either hopelessly divided or have no clue what alternative to Rudd’s policies might work. I can’t remeber the last time a federal opposition was in such a strategically hopeless position this one is.
Diog, sorry but you are wrong
I’m in the same boat as Finns, not too cluey on climate change, but this bloke ain’t immpressed by Obi and what he can do
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2009/jun/26/us-obama-climate-monbiot
Why bother with developing policy when throwing mud and briefing news Ltd editors is so much easier and much more fun.
Be sure to wake me up when they do get around to coming up with one…
Psephos @ 441 – Again, the analogy with Evatt is interesting: for all his learning, he was a poor politician, and his hatred of Menzies completely distorted his judgement.
I still suspect that even with the best leader that money could buy, the Opposition would be in rather dire straits at the moment, because of the effective collapse last year of the ideology of ever-more-free markets which dominated political discourse world wide for about 30 years. Even though the Liberals never went anywhere near as far as the Republicans in America – luckily for Australia – it’s simply very difficult for them to make a case these days based on deregulation or privatisation of this, that or the other; which leaves them with almost nothing to say. They are being totally reactive, and it’s hard to think of a single issue on which they are even coming close to putting forward an interesting or novel idea.
It also helps in keeping the “wacko right” occupied in radio talk-back sessions and commenting on Pie’s blog.
It keeps them in the tent and they get enough satisfaction in keeping it running so that they aren’t able to cut loose like a brace of loose cannons and do the Coalition damage in other ways.
The Libs need their votes and don’t want to see another breakaway movement like One Nation.
There is a good reason why the Liberals haven’t developed any policy and that is because it would expose them as a divided rabble unable to agree on any given policy.
I bet Cassidy on will have another go at Kev for being on Rove and not Insiders tomorrow
lazy, yes, but great film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuO4BfnlDY8
406
In Germany, the Bundestag is required by the Constitution to elect the Chancellor after each election by an absolute majority. If it fails after three votes then the President then appoints the Chancellor. This is part of the system set up to avoid the troubles that plagued the Weimar Republic. The other major part was the constructive vote of no confidence where, for a vote of no confidence to succeed, there must be a new Chancellor elected. If a motion of no confidence is passed, without the election of a New Chancellor, then the can be an early election (the only situation where one can occur).
And for not attending the WA State ALP Confrence along with Swannie who did come over.
Adam i hate to break it to you but IR is not a big issue any more it is dead and burried…
Fact is people care about the Economy first and last and how much better off they’lll be under one side or another…
It is troubling that the ALP’s education revolution has turned out to be a complete furphy and they have not one policy on hospitals or health in general…
Vera, George Monbiot won’t be pleased until we’re living in caves and sucking in more CO2 than we put out.
Slight exaggeration, but the thing you need to know about him is that he would consider anything less than a *very* high cut a cop out.
The whole basis of the attempted smear against Rudd by one the regular toxic columnists was that in 1989? documents to do with the case were supposedly shredded. (Note that the matter they refer to happened before the change of Govt and before Rudd became head of their public service)
Because Rudd was head of the Qld public service at the time the columnist reckons he must have given advice to the Qld Govt that it could destroy the documents. (I would have thought that such things would come via Qld AG and Qld Dept of Justice advice – but that didn’t fit their smear very well)
In any case the toxic columnists whole premise evaporated because a report in the OO before the election said the documents had NOT been destroy that the Qld police or whatever had found them.
The toxic columnist must have been devastated.
So what do they have now? Well there was a serious and distasteful event that involving other peoples that happened and was tried in the courts ‘before’ Rudd came into Qld public service – he has no connection with the thing at all in any way shape or form.
The only reason the filth in the Liberal Party would like to raise the issue is because it contains an emotive event – they are just trying to put that and Rudd in the same sentence. Filth personified.
How is IR not related to the economy?
Oz, like the Greens you mean
just stirring, as I said I’m no expert on CC.
The Libs and their co-travellers, haven’t woken up to the fact that the caravan has moved on and that the tactics and strategies that they have relied upon since the days of Whitlam or really, prior to that, have lost much of their effectiveness.
The population has become more educated and more able to analyse things before they form an opinion about them. This, together with the aged demographic that they have relied upon for so long, quickly falling out of the system all spells bad news for the Libs.
They have to either renew and develop policies which resonate with the broad electorate, or they will decline into a sad, resentful and unwanted rump!
Glen
sweeping statements do not become you
1. the edu revolution is under way and slowly but surely we will (education wise) enter the 21C (sadly howie wanted to head backwards to the 18C)
2.The health and hospitals revolution is taking much longer, due to an almost criminal neglect by howie to provide a national framework., luckily labor is putting the pieces back together again.
Frank I saw Swanny on the news being asked about grocerywatch, he must like the west he was looking pretty relaxed.
Tom, so, if Schroeder had gone to the Bundestag as a minority in 2005, the PDS would have had three choices: vote for the Schroeder-Fischer government, in which case it stays in office; vote against it, in which case Merkel forms a minority government and the PDS is responsible for putting them in; or abstain, in which case presumably the President would have appointed Merkel as leader of the largest party, and again the PDS would have been to blame. All Schroeder had to do was keep his nerve. But instead he chose just to walk off and get a nice job with Gazprom.
Gusface i thought ‘we’ werent playing the blame game
Adam if that had happened then Schroeder would have been held hostage by the ‘Communists’ during the GFC that would have played out well…
Also it could have resulted in another election if Schroeder had refused to give up the chancellorship…
It looks like even the deluded, rusted-on’s agree with me on one point. Trouble is, I think they will have to get used to disappointment!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25690445-7583,00.html
I wonder if Michael Costa resigned from the Labor Party before he joined the Libs?
Agreed
But the truth must be said.
Otherwise meaningful reform will go nowhere.
460
It is all a bit of a mess. I agree that the SPD Greens and Left should have made the government but the SPD are to scarred of a backlash from Western German voters for having too much to do with the Left Party (they must be related to the ALP).
Gusface it is better to be big enough to say there are problems say it doesnt matter about the past but that the ALP will fix them…i have heard no such thing from Roxon or Rudd and no such plan…
Why does Health and Education get so little air time or policy time???
This is from a Labor Govt to so what’s up with that?
I’d say they’ll file it under the “we tried, came up short, but better than not trying at all”
I had to laugh about hearing they are trying to dredge up the Heiner affair in Qld to smear the Ruddster. That is ancient history and wasn’t his call anyway. They might as well dredge up the Vince Gair affair – after all Gair was from Qld and Rudd wuld have been about 20 when it happened!! I blame Rudd.
As for the ETS I wish Rudd and Obama would both do more. One thing though, the bright sparks in the Senate who voted to delay the bill won’t get an easier time in August. August / September is peak melting season for Arctic ice. On current trends it will be aproaching another record low about then.
Scorpio @ 462 – Don’t be critical of Mr Costa. That a person who was so conspicuous a failure as a politician is now giving political advice to anyone who will listen is one of life’s delightful absurdities, which you should learn to enjoy. Like King Robert of Sicily, he has become a jester, aping his betters.
467 – socrates – only on The Daily T, so it doesn’t really count.
Glen
The education system is U/S as is the Health system.
put simply the distortions via Funding and rebates have created a system that effectively serves two masters-Public and Private
Disentangling the web of duplication and redundant funding both direct (gvt) and indirect (rebates etc) is the core of the problem.
Howie did his level best to create in both Health and education a duality of policy that ultimately would favour the Private sector.
So waving a magic wand is not going to solve the problem
But targetted spending on key areas ie laptops for schools, reform of the PBS etc deliver verfiable outcomes that ultimately lead to the restoring of PARITY in both Education and Health.
This is a good example of what I posted earlier about Abbott’s blog and how it appears “stage-managed”. It also was on Friday the 19th, the day of the Senate Hearing where Grech made his mark.
This one is interesting in that it was posted at 9.31am and replied to at 11.06am by Abbott on that day and one could reasonably suspect with hindsight that the poster and Abbott were well aware that the “set-up” was on.
Labor operatives should do a run-down on all Abbott’s blogs since the election and follow them closely now. I think they will gain a lot from comparing them to Liberal Parliamentary strategy and what the Lib friendly media commentators are running.
[Hi Tony,
What do you make of the allegations surrounding John Grant and Kevin Rudd misleading parliament? Do you think Kev’s actions in this case show what kind of person Rudd is? Do you know anymore about John Grant the car dealer?]]
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/rudd_full_of_unfulfilled_promises/
Not while the Liberals are in opposition that’s true
Nah, people are more sophisticated than that. You iberals are so consumed by personal greed and wealth you are blind to many other issues
Education has been allocated more money that ever before and things are getting better. So to with health – it’ll take time and money but health is on the improve as well.
You’re dreamin’ Glen if you think that all the Fiberals need to do is concentrate on the economy. Hell, they don’t even talk about the economy anymore. Now it’s all about smearing good, honest, decent, hard working, self sacrificing, true blue Labor leaders. Shame on the Fiberals – shame shame shame.
The Vince Gair Government collapsed in 1957. Kevin Rudd (born 21 September 1957) would not have known much about it at the time. Rudd is good, but not quite that good!
Unless it was this Gair issue relating to his appointment as Ambassador to Ireland and the Holy See? Rudd would have been 16 years old then?
scorp 471, I tips me hat to you, very curious….
Scorpio, the comment you cite wasn’t made by Costa, it was made by someone commenting on Costa’s column. What Costa said was:
“MALCOLM Turnbull’s performance during the past week raises serious questions about his competence as a national political leader, particularly one aspiring to the prime minister’s job. If the Liberal Party had a credible alternative, the process of replacing him would have begun already. The bungling of the attack on Kevin Rudd’s involvement in the so-called “utegate” affair is a symptom of a more fatal weakness in Turnbull’s leadership armour: he appears to have a terminal inability to develop and stick to a coherent political strategy for the opposition.”
Is the Murdoch media wise to get into a personal fight with Berlusconi. Some his friends might take offense and want to come to his aid. Hate for the Aussie children to become orphans.
Murdoch-Berlusconi Feud Plays Out in the Media
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/business/media/16paytv.html
Pica,
Yeah, it’s a ripper isn’t it. Abbott was probably referring to the Lewis article which came out on Saturday, They must have expected it to come out on the Friday to legitimise the flourishing around of the “e-mail” which was expected to be published in Friday’s edition.
Many questions, not many answers yet. With a little help from the PB team, anything is possible.
Tom P: The toxic columnist’s topic is so old it belongs to the final period of National Party dominance (Cooper Government) before Goss was elected. Gen X was still at school and Gen Y in lower primary (or younger). In fact, the whole affair was so toxic that, one after the other, the Nats, ALP and Nat-Libs consigned it to the political toxic waste dump. Even Howard’s government shied away from it. Decisions made are based on arcane legal principles of what happens to records/documents in an aborted inquiry; who examines the documents; who makes decisions and who enacts them. The most balanced professional summary is on http://cpds.apana.org.au/Professionalism/Australian_20_9_07.htm
Yeah, I should have been more clear about that. I just added that bit on the bottom because I am astounded at Costa’s total sellling out of his ALP roots.
Scorpio, just to get this straight, Abbott says on the Friday;
Which we take to mean the Lewis story – which didn’t appear till Saturday!? Was there any other article published in the MSM that you know of that he could have been referring to apart from the yet-to-appear Lewis ‘bombshell’?
I expect the Cain Toad to try blame Rudd for not ordering a further investigation into the disappearance of Holt, Azaria Chamberlain, min min lights, the disappearance of Glen Miller and the Haneef affair. Whoops…cut the Haneef, said toad wouldn’t to know the truth about that one.
This is interesting. Sometimes it pays to read the posts after an article. The first post is a beauty too. This is from the second comment.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/the_bad_taste_of_pollie_waffle/
Perfectly put.
Pica, Lewis did have an article on the Friday from memory but it certainly didn’t contain any earth shattering revelations. He had been in contact all the day before with Grech trying to get approval to run the E-mail story but Grech didn’t want him to do so.
Lewis ran the story Saturday anyway (stupidly in my opinion) and the rest is history.
As an anthropologist, I just love it when terms like ‘cargo cult’ get a mention in a psepho blog; that the usage was apposite, insightful and entertaining was all a bonus.
Scorps
If you read penbo’s reply to stephen, he actually defends lewis, and by insinuation, leaves the merde on the fibs doorstep
This comment by David Penberthy is nothing but a load of twaddle. Pretty every Journalist in Canberra was well aware of what was to come as well as a heap of Editors who had all been tipped off be the Libs that this was going to break. They all knew. It is well and truly on the public record now.
Gusface,
Yeah, you beat me to it while I was formatting my post.
This detective work is tiring. I’ve got an early start in the morning, sorry, “this” morning and will have to leave you to it. Night all.
The clean lines of the Rudd govt to date has left the Libs having to use invented trivia as their secret weapon and even that backfired in their faces.
Well, we all get rankled by something in this, and my pet hate is how the Telegraph mocked up the emails (of which they only had the text, remember) to look like real ones with headers, proper “From” and “To” fields etc.
Except…
The “To” field had “Godwin Grant” as the recipient.
This is about a perfect a piece of evidence that the Telegraph was trying to stitch up Rudd as anything. They faked a clip of scurrilous (and false) “information” to look like a genuine email, so as to provide their fraudulent story with verisimitude. Your average punter, see the “From” and “To” fields would think they had the original, except there was no original. There was no email at all.
Rudd brought this fakery up in his speech and used it as one of the centerpieces of his argument that the whole thing was a smear. I agree wholeheartedly.
I think the magical thinking is what they have become reduced to in their quest of government that was obviously created by the deities for them.
Would anything change if Murdoch dropped dead tomorrow? Or would continue to get the same nonsense? Or some feel let out of their prisons and rejoice by writing quality material for a change.
The caravan moves on…
The Old Boiler’s at it again: Kerri-Anne Walsh waxes lyrical about Grocery Watch. She ends her story with a quote from Sloppy Joe:
Interesting, as Sloppy was against the whole idea from the start. But to say “the country” was distracted by Michael Jackson’s death is about as absurd as I’ve heard this idiot go.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/rudds-new-basket-case-20090627-d0he.html
My personal favourite was belindagate, whereby one belinda neal was alleged to have “roughed up ” one brendan nelson.
the witness for the prosecution, julie bishop doth assert and swear that on the flight in Q. one B Neal di assault (verbally or otherwise) one B Nelson
Unfortunately for the desperate decrepit dilletante’s , a couple of members of the public were on said flight.(and were compadres of gusface)
when challenged here and elsewhere, A simple statement that said fellow passengers were quite happy to swear stat dec’s (and incidentally had already contacted the AFP) shut that shite down quick smart.
They sure are slow learners these libs
before I head to Nod
“evil happens ,when good men (and women) do nothing”
Best poll ever! South Australia 64/36 in favour of Labor:
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25700305-5006301,00.html
However, the sample was only from the Adelaide metro area (which of course is where 85% or so of South Australians live), and the sample size is just 483.
Liberal primary vote is 23%.
I did comment on the TurnMail-gate affair resonating in SA since they have just been primed for it. Reinforces the impression that the Liberal party are basically dishonest….now Kev where is that short sharp ad campaign?
Having said that the poll I gather isn’t very useful or that instructive. But I bet it puts the frighteners on a few in Coalition.
Glen, Adam
Given the oppertunity the SDP will profer working with the CDU/CSU than being in opposition. I can no longer find the quote but it said as much somewhere in one of the articles on spiegel.de, which I have linked below.
I realize that going into coalition with the CDU may well do the SPD even more damage but thats fine by me, all the more votes for the Greens and Left. The Greens will one day become the major party of the left and if another grand coalition will quicken that movement and keep the FDP out then I’m happy. When we had the ALP as the party of the Left and the Democrats small and centrist that worked better than our current situation of having a large “third-way” sell-out centrist party and a smallish left-wing party – Germany would do well with a small SDP, a large Greens and a Left Party “to keep the bastards honest”. The Left party is highly factional and infights a lot, it does have Marxist elements but also has many many moderates.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,k-6712,00.html
This site has fair coverage of the German elections and a nifty coalition calculator which ads up the averaged poll results for each party to see which combinations could make a majority.
Trouble can brew though when the political centre carks it AND both the left and right grow strong. Just check out these election results from just prior to the Spanish Civil War (one of the few actually ‘just wars’):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_general_election,_1936
The Centre only got 5.42% then. Highly polarized and with the way things are going in Austria one wonders what tomorrow may bring…
(Spain should really be a republic)
On the earlier issue of who should be Treasurer Swan for Tanner, I still believe they have to stick with Swan, unless they get some bad polling on him.
He has done no wrong and by the reports we read put in lots of hard yards and, has apart from the first week or two of the term been pretty good on his feet and getting better all the time. He is now battled hardened and settled into the job. A critical job and now complex job, in tough times.
I have no idea of the technical capabilities of Swan or Tanner or if Tanner could do a better job. As for running the portfolio I can’t see how he could do much better without spending time coming up to speed.
Swapping out Swan would seem to be punishing him when he has done a good job. It would also not impress some of his party friends and may cause some dissent. It would be used by the Liberals to say that Swan and thus the govt has failed and that they are not in control of the economy. Thus politically the only time Swan could be moved out is after the next election in a reshuffle, should Labor win.
However swapping someone because another looks better, or the grass looks greener may end up backfiring. If it is not broken, don’t fix it.
It is a bit like the Australian cricket side. People got bored with some of the older batsmen and thought they could swap them for some young exciting guns. People can under estimate the value of experience and under estimate the abilities of less than media attractive performers.
Tanner is a star performer on TV and Parliament. As far as media goes he has already been interchangeable with Swan on talking on the economy in any case.
Milne (who I won’t link to) in the Telegraph says that Labor brayed about the AFP at the time of the Haneef case. Patently untrue. But he also says this:
Oh yeah? Who was it that demanded, shouted for, bent over backwards to get Rudd’s resignation over Brian Burke?
Costello, of course, and by the end of the day he had Campbell’s resignation instead.
Poor Glen, there’s no silver lining in this one mate. Turnbull “kept on punching” but that was pathetic, not inspirational.
Rudd’s Good News Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikXXYapbYzI
My God.
Have a read of a pile of Piffle under the heading “Ipswich Inc.” in the Saturday Australian. It appears to have been written by the work experience kid and edited after Friday afternoon drinks.
The Author’s name is Bita, but I don’t suppose you are ever likely to hear of her again.
The gist of it is to set up a chain of guilt by association on the “I danced with a boy who danced with a girl who danced with the Prince of Wales” principle.
Truly Pathetic, even by OO standards.
Sorry, still can’t do links.
Morning all, Milne’s article is on the same lines as the one by Bita. Typical of the Poison Dwarf. Sliding below the pond slime. All innuendo, little irrelevent as far as facts go and relying on what it infers as well as what it doesn’t say, to give an intended impression that there is a whole lot of substance behind what is really, nothing but a whole lot of??????yeah, Nothing!
How low can he go? Well, he has surely scraped the bottom now. Has the man no shame? Watch out for utes, Glen.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25700275-662,00.html
“little irrelevent”, Sorry, “little relevance”.
This mob are going to brew over the Winter Break. I said a while back that Hockey was in it up to his neck. If they keep up a disjointed attack on Swan, Rudd and each other over the break, then the next lot of Question Times will be very interesting.
There will of course, be more information available to the Government from the two Inquiries currently under-way to add to the ammunition locker. The heavy artillery will be primed and ready to let loose with a barrage of broadsides. Get the popcorn ready folkes!
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25700276-662,00.html
If Milne wrote like this all the time in between hangovers, then he would sustain at least some credibility and probably do more for the Liberal cause than the previous rubbish I linked to earlier.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25699444-5001031,00.html
I think the Editors at the DT have instructed Milne to tread a careful line with any articles of his they publish. They would be concerned about any legal fall-out from being responsible for Lewis’ efforts!
turnbull is having an appalling interview on chan10. His body language tells of a crushed man.
hmmm, interviewed by steve lewis and then malcolm praised the coverage by the oz.
The viewers have been taken for a ride. Shame on chan10 and paul b.
Email from Kev this morning
Guess Labor already has some internal polling on how the electorate is reacting.
SNIP: See article 2 of comment moderation guidelines – The Management.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25700305-5006301,00.html
I know its a Sunday Mail poll, but still, What The?! That’s a massive swing!
Bring on the Apr-Jun Newspoll!
MHS is dead in the water, wonder who’ll challenge him for the leadership? If he stays, the Liberals are doomed at the next election. Chapman is a bomb waiting to happen. Redmond is just as bad. Mitch Williams? Iain Evans (Iain Who?) says he won’t challenge.
I hope MHS stays, then we can pick up Stuart, Unley, Morphett, probably even blue-ribbon Heysen!
That photo of the 51 Club looks like a group less powerful than your average Rotary club. I doubt anyone is going to see that pic and think, wow look at all those movers and shakers.
Pathetic journalism.
Glen, this is wishful thinking on your part. You have no evidence to claim IR is not a big issue.
The Liberal Party is the WorkChoices Party, they are WorkChoices addicts.
I haven’t seen the interview. Why shame on Paul B? He’s normally straight down the line
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25697289-421,00.html
Classic. Looks like we’ll be seeing Opposition Leader “Bomber” back again, but the Liberal version this time!
exactly. he should never allow steve lewis to be on the panel, let alone interviewed Turnbull. There is a clear conflict of interest here and it does NOT serve the interest of the punters who dont know much about the relationships.
where as we do and we should point it out.
Is this a new species of homo sapien? half-man and half-woman.
Ipswich HomoErectus Queenlandicus?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25695756-5013871,00.html
Who said Shanahan was biased?
Re ShowsOn 497 “Best poll ever! South Australia 64/36 in favour of Labor:
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25700305-5006301,00.html
A little dickeybird told me the SA Libs had been involved in a fake email scandal that blew up in the Opposition leader’s face. But I’m sure it’s an evil rumour. Or maybe it’s just that the Crow Eaters confused Malcolm’s antics with their own Oppo leader.
I mean, the Liberals wouldn’t have let themselves get sucked into two fake email scandals in less than two months, would they? I mean, they couldn’t be that dumb, could they?
Fingers last Monday, rough coughing on Ten this morning. Like poison ivy, it is all over.
Steve Lewis of the OO interviewed Malcolm Turnbull on Channel 10?
Your kidding, right?
Bob1234 One swallow doth not a summer make; not even one whose stable bosses and colleagues are more than a little apprehensive at what the Fed Cops might find following the song of a certain singing canary, species Godwinus Grechi and his hard drive/s, email and phone records etc.
Keep trying Bob1234!
There are some similiarities but the two cases are quite different.
Tom P Surely 10 has the wrong Lewis? Surely you mean that Oxford mathematicical Don Reverend Dodgson’s alter ego? This is taking place in his Looking Glass world in a parallel universe, isn’t it?
TP, i can send you an email to confirm it.
paul kelly also reads PB
Abbott thinks Rudd is ‘ruthless and Machiavellian’. Watch and learn, Tony.
That interview with Turnbull must have been fun. Police speak to Turnbull:
http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaking-news-national/police-speak-to-turnbull-over-fake-email-20090628-d0u7.html
This bit is intersting:
“I’ve met with the federal police, I’ve given them a statement,” Mr Turnbull told the Ten Network on Sunday.
“Let the police do their work.”
He vowed his team would be more careful in the future after the email affair, appearing to broaden responsibility by using “us” and not “me”.
“I think everyone will be more cautious, all of us will be cautious.
“You’ve got to learn from episodes like this.”
But I found this bit off the scale funny in an ironic sense:
“Mr Turnbull complained that the government had it in for him from the start. They have called for him to resign and raised issues from Mr Turnbull’s past since the email affair broke.
“All they have been flinging against me, in fact they’ve been doing it ever since I became leader, is one smear after another.”
Mr Turnbull said the government had been “vicious and personal” in their “fear and smear” attacks on him.”
ROTFL. Thanks Malcolm, you’ve made my Sunday
Steve Lewis interviews Malcolm Turnbull both of which used the email that was fake in sensationalising the attempted Turnbull smear against Rudd. Who runs channel 10 , Tony Abbott? Incest, the game the whole family can play.
“All they have been flinging against me, in fact they’ve been doing it ever since I became leader, is one smear after another.”]
Poor old Malcolm, he is a looser and desperately trying not to see it.
The problem with him saying things like that is that almost all his TV appearances involve slagging off at the Government in some over the top way, almost every time he is on. People will be thinking, this guys is saying what?
Maybe Paul B doesn’t have much say as to who is on the panel? Bit lame I agree.
Certainlt B should have pointed out the significant part that Lewis had played so far.
B could also have played some subtle game to ‘interview’ Lewis as much as Turnbull – probably not fair but it is about politics.
Re http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25700305-5006301,00.html Sunday Mail 64/36 poll crash.
If 64/36 was to play out, the Liberals would be left with, and margins of, Mark Goldsworthy in Kavel (1.2%), Steven Griffiths in Goyder (1.8%), Liz Penfold in Flinders (hard to calculate as current 10.1% 2pp margin is vs. Nats), Adrian Pederick in Hammond (4.1%), Vickie Chapman in Bragg (4.6%), and Mitch Williams in MacKillop (14.5%). That’s only 6 Liberal MPs in a House of 47.
Malcom Turnbull and the murdoch media trying to get Rudd, but it just doesn’t seem to work out….it is Malcolm that gets stoned to death from his own mouth.
Note, the cross dressing rabble are the Coalition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeq2Utm0nU
The report of that poll makes an invalid comparison with the 2006 election. If you look at the poll carefully, a 1% swing has been reported as a 7% swing.
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2009/06/rann-government-well-ahead-in-latest-poll.html
http://www.australia.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11600:liberals-deny-basic-rights-to-construction-workers&catid=73:politics&Itemid=199
WorkChoices addicts.
Good point. It’s a metro poll, not a statewide poll.
Antony – those SA Sunday tabloid polls are rubbish. Their sample is small, they arent weighted properly and their results have very little bearing to what other pollsters pick up. That’s apart from the fact that no one is quite sure just which telephone books the names are drawn out of.
Galaxy, Nielsen, Essential and Newspoll this week – there’ll undoubtedly be something for everyone
Tom P … BTW, a long long time ago (early 60s) UQ had an original ed of one of Paine’s books – “Rights of Man, Part the Second, Combining Principle and Practice”, if I remember rightly. I was backgrounding the English Romantics (pre the appearance of Frankfurt School & post-modernism in Arts courses, when one was supposed to critique them in context) and thoroughly enjoying myself. In an era when UQ has, at best, two copies of such texts, it was in the main shelves (very few at that time; the main library could be best described as “Depression & Construction cost affected”; ie Blo#dy pathetic, hence the use of what would now be considered valuable volumes ); part of a large gift of well-used old books donated when UQ was nearly new. Included in the gift was a copy of the Lenin pamphlet which analyses Australia, its workers’ rights – magic! – and an original of one of Alexander Pope’s poetic (and “cleaned up”) versions of a Shakespearean play (?Romeo and Juliet).
On TV now, I watch white-gloved archivists gingerly turning pages of the precious manuscripts and docs I remember, only a few decades back, as being (ungloved) handed over to me for reading on the production of my dean’s letter of intro – as long as I signed the register (who’d heard of white gloves then?). My faves were early Sydney’s still-rolled “pipes” (in a small box). Similar tales of reading docos in London’s BL and other archives.
Nothing like actually handling the originals, wondering who else had handled those very books etc when they were just off the presses; being written, some rolled and unrolled.
Except none of the polls you mention are surveying on South Australian politics.
As far as SA goes, I just hope that Newspoll release it on time and not 2 months later, and actually issue a PDF as opposed to just tacking the result on to the end of polling history.
I know Antony – those two paras weren’t actually related. Maybe needed a
————
..as a separator.
For SA State polls, there’s a Newspoll due over the next 2 weeks.
And whatever you think of the poll, it is worth pointing out that the number it has found doesn’t mean what the report says. The poll hasn’t found a 7% swing, but that’s what the report suggests.
It was a dodgy move by the Courier Mail to bring out the latest Queensland Galaxy poll before the result of the last Queensland Election has even been decided because the Chatsworth appeal is still live. Funny that it did coincide with a late night sitting of state parliament that finished at 4 0r 5.00am last Saturday morning and allowed LNP politicians to party like it was 1999.
A nice circular argument run by the Courier Mail reinforced by a dodgy Galaxy poll and misleading LNP politicians into thinking they have won the next state election before the last one has even been finalised. Oh what a tangled web they weave…
That said, it’s not looking good for QLD Labor.
bob1234:
“‘A nice circular argument run by the Courier Mail reinforced by a dodgy Galaxy poll and misleading LNP politicians into thinking they have won the next state election before the last one has even been finalised. Oh what a tangled web they weave…’
“That said, it’s not looking good for QLD Labor.”
Which isn’t up for re-election until 2012. Who’d have thought, not long after Fed Election04 that Howard would be destroyed in Nov 07.
If a week’s a long time in politics, how long is c150 weeks?
Latham and Beazley dragged down the vote. WorkChoices was always going to kill the Liberal Party when Labor had a credible alternative.
Langbroek is a cleanskin. He appears credible, as far as Liberal leaders go.
Not to mention, polls are usually in favour of the party who just won the election as they inevitably go through a mini honeymoon. Thus, the Howard/2004 election comparison is invalid.
Something we didn’t know about Michael Jackson.
On the ABC website
“Jesse Jackson: Michael Jackson’s brother says the family wants a private autopsy.”
Langbroek has already earned the title of “Interim Opposition Leader”. Deputy Springborg has already elbowed him out in all but official title so it was obviously more Springborg approval than Langbroek approval in that Galaxy poll.
Malcolm wants to negotiate over the ETS.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/opposition-ready-to-negotiate-on-ets-20090628-d0uw.html
Looks like it will be crippled even more and then eventually passed.
Why’s that?
Pffft. I hate the Libs but that’s just being mischievous. Springborg isn’t tilting for another go, and everyone knows he’s unelectable.
I’ve put up a post on the Sunday Mail poll.
It is true, check out the latest week of Queensland hansard. The only thing Langbroek has achieved is bring down a poorly received Budget Reply Speech.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/legislativeAssembly/hansard.asp?SubArea=latest
What did Kevin Rudd achieve prior to the 2007 election………?
bob1234
The loss of JWH’s mojo
Bligh doesn’t have a mojo – she’s a girl.
I missed INSIDERS!
What was Abbott like?
When the Libs’ factions have not one but at least two sets of nicknames (The Sicilians v The Doctors; The East[ern Suburbs] v The West) and the Nats have “The Loopies” (that’s the politest I’ve heard) v those who think they’re sane – and the brawls (now over a generation old) are far from resolved – I’d guess that a forest of pulping pines will be felled and a fortune spent on downloads, texts etc before the next Qld election is called.
Bob 1234 … Posts remind me of that teacher report card fave: “Always trying.”
No need for personal attacks. They don’t look good and do nothing to further the poster’s point.
How about destroyed a veteran polly and saved Australians from WC 2, 3 and 4
Evan19 558 “What was Abbott like?”
Didn’t watch it; but i’d guess “an equivocator, that could swear in both the scales against either scale” (Will S)
Y’r know, I’m sure Mal, Tony, Joe & Co are a tad put out that a poor share-farmer’s son and an ex-surfie long-haired lair from a mere small-town Qld SHS could trump the well-heeled lads from Sydney’s elite private schools.
bob1234, you could very well be right about Bligh’s chances at the next election but basing that opinion on one poll some 3 years out from the next election is very courageous indeed.
Looks like Malcolm will put up a few changes to the ETS, Rudd will accept one or two of them so Malcolm can save face and do a bit of chest thumping, then the bill will pass despite the Greens trying to vote it down. I think it was Adam that said this would happen all along. That outcome will do me
Bob 1234
Hamlet: What have you, my good friends, deserv’d at the hands of Fortune, that she sends you to prison hither?
Guildenstern: Prison, my lord?
H: Denmark’s a prison.
Rosencrantz: Then is the world one.
H: A goodly one, in which there are many confines, wards, and dungeons, Denmark being one o’ th’ worst.
R: We think not so, my lord.
H: Why then ’tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
Hamlet 2/ii,
I could add Rosencrantz’ reply.
Ah, Sweet Will!
evan14
I missed INSIDERS!
What was Abbott like?
Just downloaded the interview. Very uncomfortable Lot of thinking between short word-bursts. Still trying to beat up the Opposition’s case – unconvincingly.
I don’t think so. Turnbull has no bargaining power. Rudd and Wong can say, “That’s nice, Malcolm, here’s the bill, we’ve made all the concessions we’re making, vote for it or take the consequences (a DD in March).” They will throw him a few minor bones, and he will cave, because the alternative is a DD and the end of his political career. Turnbull is handicapped not only by the weakness of his leadership but all also by the fact the he knows perfectly well that the CPRS is correct policy – it’s exactly what he would have done as Enviro Minister had Howard won in 2007.
QLD Labor is by no means dead, as they obviously have time on their side. But 55-45 to the opposition as the first poll after an election certainly does not bode well. Even NSW Labor didn’t do that badly.
OzPol, please. Please please please, use facts to debate, rather than personal attacks, cliches, and silly quotes.
don’t listen OzPol – more Shakespeare!
SEYTON
The Leader of the Opposition, my lord, is, politically speaking, dead.
MACBETH
He should have resigned hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Has Turnbull refused to answer AFP questions? He said he gave the AFP a statment but did he answer questions? It should have been the first thing a journalist would have asked him.
Still wondering about the re-shuffle could be a nice distraction for Malcolm T….
574 [Still wondering about the re-shuffle could be a nice distraction for Malcolm T….]
I assume the first move is to putt Hockey or Abbott in as leader of the opposition…
When a re-shuffle is considered a “nice destraction”, you know things are in the shit…
Bob at 570. Your one to talk about using facts to support your argument. How did Kim Beazley drag down the Labor vote?
After a smashing in 96 he nealy wins in 98 and made it the second closest vote since in 01 facing 9/11 and Tampa. J C wouldn’t have won in those circumstances and nor would have Rudd.
Now the BIG question is how much does the Obama ETS differ from Rudd’s? I think the Obama and Greens supporters are going to be “Diogs you are wrong again”!
I’d put Abbott in Education/MOOB and dump Whine to a lesser portfolio…
Also id drop Coonan but that’s just me.
Hockey has been damaged by Emailgate nearly as much as Turnbull. His colleagues will not soon forget the unbelievable stupidity of his speech on the Monday. It showed he has no judgement and goes to pieces under pressure – not what one wants in an Opposition Leader. The only senior Lib who kept their nerve last week was Abbott. He talked a lot of nonsense of course, but he kept cool and seemed to be looking for a sustainable line, rather than just blathering like Hockey did.
If the Greens want to be even slightly considered as a formidable party, they should beat that sad case of an opposition to it and supprot the CPRS. Otherwise they will be just forever considered as a minor protest group.
He’d already lost two elections?
By the time Rudd took over, Labor was already on ~52% of the 2pp vote. Rudd made that go much higher. Labor should have been much higher than ~52% during Howard’s last term under Beazley but the public perception of him was a drag on that.
I thought QLD have a 4 year term. Bligh had called an early election.
Qld has a maximum 3 year term.
With Beazley leading Labor after the 04 election and then Rudd taking over was all about timing Bob. Something the Greens would no nothing about! But no, based on facts, Beazley never dragged the vote down.
You’ve already lost if you’re comparing Australia’s policy to the US. But since you ask, the base cuts by 2020 are the same, Obama’s are higher by 2050 and overall compensation to industry and exclusions are lower in the US plan.
So yeah, pat yourself on the back.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that whatever happens with the CPRS, The Green vote will increase at the Federal election. What you can’t seem to grasp is that The Greens aren’t going to lose a single vote over the CPRS by blocking it, they’re much more likely to pick up votes and this is backed up by the polling on people’s opinions on the policy.
If The Greens and other, non-political environmental groups weren’t putting the pressure on then it’s likely you’d have a policy even worse than the current one (though it’s hard to see how that’s possible). It was the non-political environmental groups and movements that made all the parties recognise that climate change was an issue in the first place.
That depends on what the election is about.
If the CPRS is passed and we have a “routine” election late next year, then the Green vote probably will go up a bit, because the drift of inner-city middle-class lefties from Labor to Green will continue, though not enough to win any seats I expect, because the three best Green federal seats – Sydney, Grayndler and Melbourne – are all held by high-profile ministers who are in my opinion unbeatable.
But, paradoxically, if the CPRS is blocked by the Green-Lib alliance and we have an early election on the issue of climate change, the Green vote will in my view go down, because the vote will be polarised between those who want action on climate change, who will vote Labor, and those who don’t, who will vote Lib-Nat. The Greens, having blocked action on climate, will fall through the middle. Their core vote will support their stand, but no-one else will.
Oz as you have said the base cuts by 2020 are the same. So the Obama supporters who criticised, Rudd should now criticise Obama. Of course industry compensation has no effect on the environment.
Oz I don’t think the Greens will ever move forward as a party unless they are prepared to make the really practical decisions.
What are you on about? What i’m saying is that Beazley dragged down the Labor vote. He could never consistently pull more than 52-48. Labor should have been on much more than 52% 2pp during Howard’s WorkChoices term.
Beazley took over from Keating and improved the vote. He was replaced by Crean and the voe went down. He succeeded Latham and the polls went up.
Let’s agree to disagree
Centre
Don’t worry, we have been. Obama has decided that to spend his political capital on healthcare rather than climate change.
I’ve always criticised the US’ policy for being far too weak – which it is. Not sure who this is directed at.
El Oh El.
Nah, you’re being too simplistic. Perhaps most people will not pay enough attention and view in those polarising terms, but from the polling we’ve seen people are doing a good job of being against Labor’s CPRS for a whole range of reasons.
Blocking the CPRS and articulating the reasons why won’t convince the public that The Greens, who have made the environment a cornerstone of probably every local, state and federal election since their inception, are against taking action.
Glen: Scott Morrison has some talent, he ought to be promoted.
I believe a Neilsen poll is coming out tomorrow, and a Newspoll on Tuesday.
I think Mal can say he has a bit of ‘2 dead cat week’ .
Remember, I’m not suggesting The Greens are going to win government in 2010 over climate change.
Looking at the last Essential polls with questions on climate change it looks like around 30% of people don’t support the Government’s policies and want stronger action, with neither the Government nor the Opposition receiving majority support for their views.
If you take 10% of that for the core Green vote, that still leaves a pretty significant figure to work with, the majority of which will be disillusioned ALP voters and already in the sights of The Greens.
1996 was about anyone but Keating. For heavens sake, Howard, Mr “why does this man bother”, Mr something-in-the-teens percent of the Preferred PM vote, beat Keating.
It took Beazley to late 1997 before he could pull ahead of the Liberals in 2pp terms, see:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/the-long-view
and that was mainly because Howard was slashing funding to various programs left right and centre.
He lost two elections. He might have won the 2PP in 1998, but you either win or you don’t. Beazley lost two elections.
As for Latham, he was proven to be a nut. He deserves the same explanation Keating did – anyone could beat him. Though Keating is miles and miles ahead of Latham.
All Beazley could muster in 2pp polling during Howard’s WorkChoices term is ~52%. Rudd came in and averaged 57%, getting as high as 61%. People weren’t listening to Beazley. If you don’t want to believe Beazley dragged the vote down, then yes, I suppose we will indeed have to agree to disagree… *rolls eyes*
I notice much of the media are trying to spin the line that the general public aren’t interested in “Utegate” and Rudd’s more aggressive line will lose him votes.
Your average Australian ISN’T interested in utegate. And Labor focus groups were telling them that Rudd was infact being too aggressive which saw him pull back a bit toward the end of the week.
Too late, people saw Cat Man in action that is what they will take away.
If the Greens join the Libs, Nats and Fielding in voting down the CPRS, most voters will draw the obvious conclusion – that if you lie down with dogs, you probably are one.
Probably not, but they still make judgements about the two sides of politics based on the aggregate of what they see and hear. Emailgate has been a big negative for the Libs in that regard.
This is probably correct. I said myself sometime during the week that the Labor frontbench and Albo in particular needed to take a cold shower, and I think they got that message (though probably not from me).
*Most* voters might (though I don’t think most voters are as stupid as you hope) but if you read my above two posts, you’ll realise that that doesn’t really matter.
Yes, only two weeks ago he was nerd who shouldn’t try to use Australian vernacular expressions. Now he’s a merciless demon, persecuting poor Malcolm Turnbull for minor things like peddling fake emails, giving $10 million dolalrs to a mate and corrupting the Public Service in the process.
Terrible. Just terrible.
Oz,
The worst fears of the Greens is about to unfold. Climate change and environmental issues will go mainstream. This will marginalise the Greens even further.
If, as looks likely, the mainstream parties pass the ETS legislation then CC will be done and dusted as an issue for most voting Australians. The position of the US is broadly comparable to what the Australian Government was trying to achieve which will placate some who think Australia is going too far too fast. Copenhagen at the end of the year will bring forward some statements of ambitions which Australia will be supporting.
The Greens having dealt themselves out of the debate through their truculence and extremist views will find themselves isolated from the mainstream of Australia. To be heard they will have to espouse even more radical versions of their “It’s never enough” mantra. This is hardly an assured vote winning strategy.
The next election will then be fought on economic issues. An area where the Greens have zero credibility.
Funny how the Green vote has maintained and/or risen in all Australian Parliaments in the Newspolls since the GFC
I agree, that most of the public have little interest in Ozcar.
I don’t agree, that the “more aggressive” Rudd will lose him votes.
Firstly, he wasn’t aggressive, he was assertive, there is an important difference.
Secondly, why was he assertive? Because he was accused of being corrupt and of misleading parliament – pretty good reasons to fight back.
There is this myth going around that the public view Rudd as St Kevin – they don’t, they know he’s a politician and they know what politician’s are like. But what was he supposed to do? Let others defend him when he’s been accused of the most serious charges? How weak would that have looked?
No, this view that Rudd has lost votes because of his response is wrong.
I do believe, however, that all of them, Rudd included, have not come out of this stoush very well. When you’re involved in an all in brawl, the ‘who started it’, tends not to matter in the end. But it will be Turnbull who will be the most tarnished, for a range of reasons already canvassed here.
Brown is painful to listen to on economic issues. If I hear him say “the big end of town” one more time I will throw my monitor out the window. Talk about toxic bores. He seems to have got his economics from a student newspaper in 1968 and not read anything about it since. Marxism may be dead in Moscow and Beijing, but it’s alive and well in the Greens.
Voting Greens for their economic policies is like reading Playboy for the articles.
Says the man who has been a member of communist and socialist groups!
It must be just me, I like Rudd in attack mode, the Libs were fortunate Julia wasn’t in parliament, she’d have torn strips off Turnball.
I liked Keating in attack mode, but it seems the general public didn’t.
I cant think of one serious economic policy in the 2007 election. They are a single issue party and the day the Greens have any cred on anything other than the enviornmnent is the day the China becomes a democracy
Greensborough Growler,
We all know you like your long-winded lecture about evil communist ferals and we know that nothing will ever change your mind.
Oz,
To quote a great philosopher “Pots, kettle, black”.
Well indeed, but I grew out of it, as did most student Marxists from the 1970s. Brown has remained stuck in the time warp. It’s because I’ve been there and done that that I recognise his tired old Marxist cliches for the antiquated tripe they are.
Uh-huh.
http://greens.org.au/policies
Quite so, and Rudd does need to be careful about this. As noted above, he did tone it down a bit by the end of the week. It’s fair to point out, though, that he was genuinely very angry at the start of the week, after being so grossly slandered by Turnbull, and also about having his staff slandered.
They are not a single-issue party, but they are a party which has credibility on only a single issue, the environment. All their other policies were bought at the Communist Party’s winding-up jumble sale (”All policies must go!”), along with some of their personnel like Lee Rhiannon. As soon as they stray from issues they know something about and speak with some authority on, they get in trouble.
Sounds like GG!
Frank is a great philosopher?
Re Psephos @ 586 “because the drift of inner-city middle-class lefties from Labor to Green”
Is there? How big?
I’m asking because Planning was a major in management (& market research a minor); so I’m ultra aware the dictum “Planning’s first step is demography” is also vital to market research … And it seems to me that the green 1st pref vote appears to be more stable than Bob & Co would like, esp in the current environment
Has there been a study of Oz Green demographics: age, m/f, education (inc science/ss/arts/biz split)? 1st preference, 2nd preference, vote above the line? Other – inc dietary preferences?
How is the party perceived by those it wants to attract but does not? Does it/ How does it attract the green/organic farmer brigade? Is there a perception that a party for all sorts, from tough ute-driving blokes to hard-nosed professional women (Julia Gillard, for example); from the medical personnel who are part-academics & researchers, part private practice, part volunteers operating (usually) in very poor overseas communities to tradies and clerical workers?
Is it seen as what you described, Psephos? What are the backgrounds & jobs of your “inner-city middle-class lefties.” Are they “soft science/ arty” or do they cross the spectrum and include “fly-in fly-out” miners & mining engineers, geologists etc and their equivalents across the professions & employment types? Are they predominantly “girlies in girlie jobs/roles” or their male equivalent, or do they include females in what used to be (& often still are) make jobs, like engineers, metallurgists, scientists accountants, company directors and their make equivalent? Or, in fact, do the “inner-city middle-class” lefty engineers, metallurgists, scientists etc miners, tradies etc, still vote ALP, but may direct preferences to the Greens?
Because, if you’re dinkum about being a much more significant party, rather than the one whose parliamentarians get there on the preference drift from the ALP and Liberals, then you have to attract a broad spectrum of men & women covering the whole gamut of what market researchers used to call “quadrants” (I’ve been retired 11 years, so terminology & methodology may have changed). To do that, you have to structure the party and aim recruitment & advertising accordingly, and to do that, you must plan systematically.
BTW Psephos @572 Are you suggesting that 2 Sydney attack dogs from SJ schools = 3 weird sisters? Cos the lad’s prophesying so far is sorely in need of a cauldron on a heath near Forres and a basket full of nasty ingredients.
Bob
…please refer to your posts at 608 and 618.
Of course, as a Green, we accept that you live by different rules to the ones you impose on others.
Rudd will be very prime ministerial for the next few weeks, I suspect he might do another big statement on foreign affairs or infastructure development.
The attacks on Turnball will be left to Tanner and Albo.
They have much credibility on social progressivism.
OzPol, to answer a large number of questions very briefly, I think there is a drift of inner-city middle-class people to the Greens, and I think that’s where they get most of their votes from, but I haven’t seen any detailed research on this.
If you’re (fair) dinkum you don’t say you’re (fair) dinkum. God how much that phrase bugs me and the amount of use it’s got in the past couple of years. Fair suck of the sauce bottle.
Where do the votes come from? Inner city divisions on reasonable to good incomes. They don’t typically do well in poor or outer metro/country areas.
Bob,
“social progressivism”,
Speaking in cliches?
In other words, people who don’t have much to do with the environment in a practical way but have an unresolved sense of guilt about it.
Are we in the mood for some Greens pulp fiction again?
Pass the popcorn.
Is economic rationalism a cliche?
Pot kettle black is a cliche. Social progressivism is a term.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25702722-5006301,00.html
Social progressivism is a term of what? Endearment, Prison? Faux intelligence?
Oops, wrong thread
If we get into the Labor vs Green crap again, I’m going to start a discussion about the latest research on mirror neurons and it’s philosphical implications.
From Wikipedia
GG, sigh. Social progressivism, economic rationalism, these are strains of political belief.
Polly Bludger’s treat in the next two days – Galaxy, Neilson and Newspoll.
Bob,
Are they joyful strains to let us sing
Progress rationally up the socially economic stairs?
Please do, this sounds interesting.
Yep in July he’ll be in Italy rubbing shoulders with Obama and the dirty old Papi in Italy, talking about Copenhagen, the GFC etc and talking up Australia and how well we are doing compared to any of them
[If we get into the Labor vs Green crap again, I’m going to start a discussion about the latest research on mirror neurons and it’s philosphical implications
Diog, you are wRONg, again. It's "philosophical" not "philosphical ".
Yawn.
Will he be showing Papi some pole dancing?
I don’t think Greens have mirror neurons.
Why did the AFP want a statement form Turnbull, I thought he had not seen “that email”?
Diogenes,
At least the Turnbull backfire attack has given respite from the Labor vs Green feud.
Come on PBs lets put the shite back on the Libs where it belongs!
Article on social progressivism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_progressivism
Kevin Rudd’s Catering courtesy of Rove.
http://twitpic.com/8nkgg
ru,
Probably to confirm the chain of events.
When did Turnbull become involved with this frau?.
Can anyone explain Grech’s comments at the Senate inquiry about not being sure whether he had seen the email? Given he, Abetz and Turnbull discussed the email at their witness preparation meeting and the Libs were allegedly allowed to copy it down, surely Grech’s comments are BS.
Finns I think Kev better not be going to any of Papi’s villa parties with the 18yrs old young ladies, the media would go ape
Will Turnbull’s dissatisfaction rating exceed satisfaction rating in the next Newspoll? I’m expecting it to significantly do so.
GG, new email scandal?
Turnbull’s new German girlfriend? Fraulein Merkel?
If (to use Tomtfab’s favourite word) the AFP pass evidence to the DPP and they decide to charge Turnbull with an offence with a penalty of 12+ months in prison. Will he stand down as leader while the charges are heard?
Then after he is found not guilty, after a lengthy court case and after the next election, he resumes the leadership.
It may be the only way to salvage his political career.
Psephos @ 624 BTW – and this is worth saying, because of the increasing comments are anything to go by …
That SBS “Save the planet, go veg” ad is a potential disaster for the Greens. Here, in a major beef and pork area, it’s the subject of ever louder pub conversations which, somewhere between profanities, go something like “Now the Greens are trying to rob us of meat and our cattle industry”, with not just a few saying “First they want to shut down our coal industry, now its our meat industries. That’s it for the Greens as far as I’m concerned.” Only a fool gets between an Aussie and his/her T-bone, pork chops etc … and with pork come the rants about Canadian imports. A relative who drive taxis and limos (but doesn’t watch SBS) heard about it from “fares” – multiple & none of them happy.
I assume that it’s more likely have been funded by a PETA or SDA or a multi-national oil-seed producer hoping its oil-seed and bean-based fake-food patents will wipe out all those unpatentable natural products like meat, milk, butter etc (especially now the evidence against fake foods, esp fake dairy foods, is mounting); but it doesn’t take much more than a burgeoning whispering campaign to put paid to Green chances in the meat-producing states.
Finns,
Does she have a cat?
Gillard visits Iraq:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25702887-29277,00.html
ru,
That would be taking social progressivism to extremes.
GG, just for yourself:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_02/merkelMOS1304_468xx322.jpg
Tony Blair was impressed.
So was Sarkozy:
https://www.toonpool.com/user/3041/files/angela_merkel_414805.jpg
just for yourself = judge for yourself
How can this make sense?
Abetz discusses an email with Grech, and notes down some of its contents.
Later that afternoon, in a senate hearing, Abetz asks Grech if he has seen an email answering to that description. Grech says he might have but can’t be sure.
Abetz leaves it at that.
Abetz must have a very very short memory or happily accepts that Grech has.
vera @651 said “Finns I think Kev better not be going to any of Papi’s villa parties with the 18yrs old young ladies, the media would go ape
And how. New Idea, Womans Day and so on …. Then there’d be the drooling interviews – oooh wonder how Red Kerry will perform, wot! Paul B, Tony Jones … Red blooded envy-green Libs & Nats drooling … Newspoll PPM ratings through the roof … Essential R’s “What is your reaction to Kevin’s time at the villa parties?” (Tho “Pretty much wasted on Kev the Rev” would probably get the most votes) Malcolm accusing him in Parliament of corruption because he’s being offered squillions by neighbours and ALP members to carry his suitcases …
Yeah! I’m luvin the idea!
They just can’t help themselves.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25699636-953,00.html
What a load of tosh.
ruawake,
The only good thing to come out of this emailgate nonsense is all the free publicity for John Grant. I hope he makes a motzer.
John Grant just have to break wind and News Ltd will report it.
And Joe Spagnolo is still pissed off that Rudd has “snubbed” the ALP State Conference in preference to Rove.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25700521-5005374,00.html
Grant should open a utes-r-me car yard. With St Kevs loaner on the roof.
Dr Good 662
Good point – IMO that pretty much proves Grech knew what he was doing in this i.e. he was part of it and was not duped unknowingly.
Yes, which one will Kev choose?
http://www.chinacartimes.com/2007/04/18/great-walls-shanghai-line-up-hold-on-to-your-hats/
If i were Japanese or Korean car makers, i will be afraid and very very afraid.
Turnbull had a reliable source of documents – some of them “cabinet in confidence”, yet he managed to burn this source.
Surely his fellow rabble can see how dumb this was?
As a vegetarian who is only too aware that our beef industry contributes more GHG emissions per year than our entire transport industry I was delighted to see the Greens run those don’t buy beef adds on SBS. No doubt they will be unpopular with those in the offending industry, just as early claims that smoking was harmful were unpopular with tobacco farmers. Still, if we never face unpleasant truths we won’t solve this or any other social problem that involves vested interests. Plus given that the entire rural food production creates less than 3% of GDP and employs less than 5% of the workforce, I’m sure that the greens will gain more votes than they lose.
Xanthippe says that Socrates should get back to working on his thesis. Bye everyone!
Whatever you like to say about Michael Jackson, it appears he has three beautiful children:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1195641/Battle-Jacksons-children-Ex-wife-Debbie-Rowe-took-4m-pay-wants-custody.html
They should be left alone and allowed to grow up “normally”.
ShowsOn
I’ll keep it up my sleeve. As someone who’s interested in the ontology of language, I’m sure you know about mirror neurons as they’re all the rage ATM but just in case I’ll provide a link.
There’s a lot of speculation that autism is due to abnormalities of the mirror neuron system.
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Mirror_neurons
New Chinese Green Car to sweep world markets, made entirely of recycled materials:
http://psephos.adam-carr.net/car.jpg
As an omnivore – why do the Greens want to ban so many things?
From Twitter
KevinRuddPMOk. So its only a couple of hours to go before I’m on Rove. With Bruno! Any ideas guys about how I can get out of this one? KRudd
about 2 hours ago from web
Psephos, I’d say it is just as well the driver has a filter to breathe through.
A sudden case of swine flu?
They’re not trying to ban meat-eating, ruawake, just reduce consumption.
Much like the ALP is trying to do with alcohol, which is why I’m completely re-evaluating my relationship with them.
Kev could always say his s#xy lederhosen have malfunctioned. I’m sure it’s worked in the past.
Complete results of the European Parliament elections now available
http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/e/europeanunion/
Sorry I was getting the Supreme Master Ching Hai International Association , confused with the Greens.
But the Go Green on their ads is not helpfull to Bob and his clan.
The press gallery hates it that Rudd goes on Rove and not INSIDERS.
Sacha Baron Cohen is married to an Aussie, Isla Fisher. Rudd’s problem is that SBC never goes out of character in public so he’ll be all Bruno tonight. I don’t know how he agreed to it. Sounds nuts to me.
I think the first time I heard of mirror neurons was in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Moving-Image-Theory-Ecological-Considerations/dp/0809327465/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1L9VEIHZ4GT0U&colid=164VELQFBBBWX
Some of the essays try to explain how visual media that we know is not real (i.e. fiction films) can generate real emotional responses, i.e. crying, laughing, fear etc. Most old theories say we “suspend disbelief”, i.e. we actively pretend that the fictional events taking place on the screen are real. But this notion is being challenged by naturalistic theories, that are in part based on research into mirror neurons, that suggest we can actually generate real emotional responses from things we know aren’t real.
I had no idea that a tentative connection had been found between autism and lack of mirror neuron function. If that connection is supported in other research, hopefully it will inform better ways to teach children with autism.
New CBS polls
85% of adults want either fundamental changes to the health care system or want it rebuilt.
59% feel that the government will do a better job at providing medical coverage than private insurance.
57% feel the Democratic party is more likely to improve the health care system, versus only 18% with the Republicans.
WASHINGTON, April 6 (UPI) — About 57 percent of U.S. voters favor a military response to eliminate North Korea’s missile-launching capability, a poll released Monday indicates.
So, Americans want social democracy at home, hawkish policies abroad – just what I think!
Which our Green Brethern fail to realise that in Voter Land, any attempt to force the populus to punish the farmers will backfire badly.
But maybe it is part of a grand plot to make eating Tofu Steaks mandatory
Frank
Will Bob endorse the Supreme Master Ching Hai or will he distance his party from these vegan froot loops.
The Coolbear, it looks like a Dr death car if ever I saw one
http://www.fayerwayer.com/up/2008/10/coolbear3.jpg
http://www.thetycho.com/news/coolbear/coolbear3.jpg
Does this explain the effectiveness of the Ramachandran treatment for amputees suffering from phantom pain? A person who had had a hand amputated was suffering excruciating phantom pain in the missing hand. But when he put his arms into a box lined with mirrors which created the visual illusion that he had two intact hands, the pain stopped. His conscious mind knew that he had only one hand, but clearly another part of his brain believed the illusory visual image.
SO
Here’s a Nature download on Mirror Neurons and Autism.
http://www.nature.com/nrneurol/journal/v5/n1/full/ncpneuro0990.html
They could do a lot worse than just copying our Medicare system.
I heard on Lateline that the U.S. spends 14.5% of GDP on health care, but only 68% of people have coverage.
In Australia we spend 9% of GDP on health care, and have 100% coverage.
Thanks!
Professor Peter Doherty on ABC2 Fora is comparing Climate Change denial to people who deny that HIV causes AIDS.
I think Australians eating kangaroo meat rather than tofu is better for the planet.
I’ve given up tofu, having found it hard to guarantee that it is not made with GM soya.
The kangaroo tastes nicer too as well as being gentler on our land than either farming soya or beef. Coles kangaroo meat gets imported to WA from SA which is a saving on transport compared to soya from Qld.
I heard him do it on NPR one time.
Link.
Adam
From that Nature article.
Atul Gawande has a great article about mirror therapy here in the New Yorker. Personally, I’m not convinced mirror neurons account for mirror therapy’s success but we’ll find out eventually.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/06/30/080630fa_fact_gawande/?currentPage=all
It is sort of like the singer Divine who would never do interviews in character, but would only perform as such.
Dr Good
Just don’t make soccer boots out of kangaroo hide – or you get in trouble.
Rudd never goes out of character in public either, so he’ll be all “can I say to Bruno” and “Can I invite Bruno to reflect” tonight, until Bruno goes mad.
I thought this is what the Rudd Govt has been saying all along, namely you gotta to take the first step and it’s been long overdue. For which they have been criticised and crucified by the Oppositions, Greens and the Goons.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-energy28-2009jun28,0,7474723.story?page=1
Bob Brown and his Fanclub on PB – Take note, your shrill opposition at all costs will mark you as the 2009 version of the Democrats.
Finns
That’s because it sounds a lot better coming from Obama and his team of Nobel Prize winners, than from Penny Wong.
If Julia Gillard was Minister for CC, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Obama looks like he’s got an ETS up in 5 months. Rudd/Wong are still stuffing around after 18 months.
Diog, are you trying to be:
1. Funny?
2. Sexist?
3. Racist?
All 3 and add eternally Stupid as well – methinks the Green brigade have a huge chip on their sghoulder about Rudd/Wong – they prefer the Hippie collective of Brown/Milne to dictate the debate.
Rudds ETS passed the HOR didn’t it? same as Obama’s. Neither one has passed the Senate yet.
What a silly comment. Why would Gillard do any better with Barnaby Joyce or Dennis Jensen than Wong has done?
Finns
I said Julia would be better. That rules out sexist.
I said Obama was better. That rules out racist.
Try intellectual elitist and next time.
Yes. Except our Senate voted to delay voting on it until August.
I think Obama’s aim is to have it pass the Congress by the end of the year, hopefully before Copenhagen which is in the 2nd week of December.
Gillard would be doing a lot better with the main people who matter, who are the Australian people. She would also be doing a lot better with the Liberals.
Ok Diog, a goon then
Diog Julia would have the same problems withFielding, the Greens, Barnaby and the Nats.
You’ve no evidence for either of those assertions, and I think the second is quite wrong. The Libs hate Gillard much more than they hate Wong. It’s not about personalities anyway. It’s about the fact that the Coalition fogies are in denial about climate change, and Turnbull doesn’t have enough authority to whip them into line. On top of that the Greens are playing holier-than-thou and Xenophon is playing chase-the-headline.
Diog, methinks you dont like Wong is because she’s also from SA and you hate everything to do with SA.
The big difference between Australia and the US is that in the US, the Democrats control both Houses and do not have a rump of Greens in the Senate that control the balance of power with Independents.
What do we have here in Australia again?
714 – Spot on Psephos.
Yet he lives there. If he hates the place so much, why doesn’t he emigrate to another state ?
I’ll bet he won’t get the same type of vitriol if you or I said exactly the same thing Gary.
Nobody wants him
716 – scorpio, however the party discipline is nowhere near as stringent as it is here.
To be fair SA has given us some good plonk and the comedy of Downer and Pyne.
Now that you’ve said that Frank Dio had better take cover. LOL. We can’t be right can we?
OOPS – Psephos had better take cover.
Technically it didn’t. It filibustered other debate which had the effect of delaying final consideration of the bills until August.
It also set up a time line for the final consideration of the bills in August (to be completed by the end of the first week back).
Bob1234
I can only hope.
Is there any truth to the rumour that Tony Abbott talks in his sleep?
It is rumoured that he was heard to be repeating ” I move, that the member for Sturt be no further heard ” constantly, in what some have decribed as a nightmare, others have reported the incident as divine intervention.
The Libs don’t actually care one way or the other about the CPRS or climate change. All they care about is saving their miserable arses from getting another well-deserved kicking from the voters. Delaying the first vote on the CPRS until August makes it all but impossible for Rudd to spring a DD on them this year, and that was their only priority. Their next priority will be avoiding a DD in March, and I think for that reason they’ll cave and let the CPRS bill pass in November or December.
If MHS helps Pyne lose Sturt, it would be funny if Pyne then because S.A. opposition leader. I think Pyne as opposition leader would be funnier than Downer as federal opposition leader. It would require a new Mcalef sketch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFbtckAFyA
Finns
I’m very fond of SA. It’s the Athens of the South.
Adam
Of course I don’t have any evidence for those assertions; they are opinions like 99% of things said on this site. The fact that you feel the need to point it out during this argument but not in the other 99% of the time is quite telling.
Penny Wong and Julia Gillard are chalk and cheese. People sit up and take notice of Gillard and almost everyone I know switches off when Wong starts speaking. She is so bland, dour and negative that she seems to be Ruddock’s understudy.
The intricacies of carbon trading is a pretty bland subject.
Cry me a River of Crocodile Tears, Malcolm.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25702654-952,00.html
That’s quite true. But the remaining 1% of things said here are the things which I say, which are not opinions but facts, and you should remember that.
Adam
I disagree totally and you know full well there’s no Green-Lib Alliance, you may as well talk about the ALP-Lib Alliance. If the COALition vote no it will be for completely different reasons to the Greens. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
A significant % of the population realize that there is a big difference between talking about climate change and doing something about climate change!
The voters may well be polarized between wanting to act on CC or not acting but enough people will realize that the ALP plan leads to oblivion for there to be a swing to parties that will actually act, ie the Greens, democrats, climate change coalition, socialist alliance, libs-for-forests etc – the foremost of which is the Greens. There are not two poles on this issue anyway, there are three: Those that believe in science, those that pretend to believe in science but refuse to act on those purported beliefs because they are stuck in the old ways (something which would seem quite irrational if they were sincere) and those that deny the science. The voters will spread Green, ALP and Nationals/FF respectively. As has been mentioned earlier if 30% or so want tougher action then that’s enough for a swing to the Greens and based on the polls there probably will be.
Has there been independent polling on whether people think the CPRS (a) goes too far (b) is about right, or (c) doesn’t go far enough?
Psephos
Fortunately I still remember your “aether” comment so even your infallible self is only batting at 99%. And I’m not so uncharitable as to have stored up your predictions for the Democrat Primary…
No, not having an ETS at all will lead us to oblivion.
Once we have an ETS in place, then each election will include a debate on whether or not to increase the targets (and thus lower the cap).
Without an ETS, we have absolutely no mechanism to reduce our emissions.
Diog, yes, beautiful one day, riots the next:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13652874
I think there’s some Libs that care and some that CC deniers. I think there are some Labor MP’s that care and some that are CC deniers.
There’s nothing in Labor’s policy that demonstrates that they actually care about CC or the environment, just that they recognise people (from some wacky reason) are worried about it and they have to give the impression of responding to that.
What was my “aether” comment?
There’s been a lot of questions in Essential over the past year.
Name one Labor MP who is a CC denier.
When you have all the worlds scientists screaming at you, you cannot state that you’re in line with what the science dictates would be good policy.
FF have God on their side, the Greens have science on their side and the ALP/COALition have the almighty dollar on their side. For now the $ is in charge but that is not sustainable.
Somebody has been busy, a quality job on the subtitles…somebody here do this one?
It says it was uploaded 8 months ago…if so it is remarkably appropriate for Malcolm today – because it is Godwin’s law applied in spades.
Malcolm Turnbull – Downfall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOwfMo38Os
If the Greens had science on their side they would support nuclear power and genetically modified food and drugs.
Bidgood??
Adelaide is a country town that just kept growing.
Psephos
I believe you told us that TS Eliot could have said “aetherised” rather the “etherised” in Prufrock. It ended in dark muttering.
I can’t find the poll but I’m sure that Australians wanted a bigger target on average. But more than that, they don’t want to hear about the ETS any more. They overwhelmingly want it passed.
Turnbull knows he’s on a huge loser if he continues to obstruct the ETS, except on Andrew Bolt’s denier blog.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/817347/australians-support-ets-poll
Amazing – it mentions looking like Latham, leaking to the media. Predictive piece.
That is very wicked.
Here is my first question to the PB knowledgeables, the second is more of a quiz:
How much do federal politicians from different parties hang out together? How well would say Jockey and Albanese know each other? How many times since Turnbull became opposition leader would he have sat down in a caffateria/cafe/office and had an in depth conversation with Rudd over coffee – probably with a minder each? Are they nicer or less nice to each other once the camera’s are off? If Dems and ALPers can hit it off there must be at least a bit of non-professional friendlyness.
Well it’s my 99% view that Penny Wong is doing all right. She has the greens on one side pushing for no start because the start isn’t good enough, some Liberals who don’t want to start because it will hurt their feelings, other Liberals who can’t see why anyone wants to start, one independent who has a serious belief in fairies and has trouble with the concept of starting anything, and another who won’t start until the start is moved to the lower lakes.
A better starter isn’t going to get it started sooner.
fredn, what evidence is there that this is a “start”?
This is the Government’s policy, formulated to protect and sandbag the industries that need to change if we have any chance of stopping climate change. It’s exactly the same policy the Liberals would be bringing in if they had won the election because they are as entertwined with the polluting industries as Labor.
As I said oz, the greens don’t want to start because the start isn’t good enough.
My observation, based on having worked in Parliament House on and off for five years, is, “not much.” They are civil to each other outside the chamber, but no more. Some backbenchers have friends on the “other side”, and most can work together on committees in reasonable harmony, but at ministerial level I think there is very little unofficial contact across the aisle at all. In the 1940s Menzies and Chifley would share a scotch in Chif’s office at the end of the sitting day, but I doubt anything like that could happen now. They are all much too busy for one thing, and surrounded by staff all the time. The media scrutiny is much more intense, and the “Queensberry rules” that used to maintain a clear distinction between private and public have broken down. Did Menzies know that Chif was having an affair with his secretary? Almost certainly. Would he have dreamt of telling a journalist about it? It would never have crossed his mind. Now, no-one trusts anyone not to leak against them, and of course the media will now run stuff they wouldn’t have touched 50 years ago. It does depend a bit on the personalities. Hawke, Peacock, Beazley, are fairly easy-going and gregarious types. Keating, Howard, much less so. Rudd not at all. The Libs really do hate Rudd with a passion, and it’s easy to see why – he has a very abrasive personality, and he always knows he’s the smartest kid in the class. So I very much doubt that Rudd and Turnbull have ever had a chat over coffee. as someone noted before, Turnbull could easily have *asked* Rudd in private if the Grech email was genuine, but it obviously never occurred to him to do so.
Quiz question:
My second cousin is a former councilor. When he visited he showed me a documentary from a community TV channel done in a language spoken by few about his time as a councilor representing the “BLANK National Party”. What is the name of the party?
Clues:
• It represents a minority group of which I am partially a member.
• It mostly operates at the local and provincial levels but has one federal senator according to Wikipedia.
• The party has seven (out of 55) seats in the BLANK provincial legislative.
• It is in a type of coalition with the local Green party.
• It is a member of the EFA.
I think the fact Rudd went from a backbencher in 1998, to Prime Minister in 2007 annoys a lot of Liberals too, especially Malcolm Turnbull.
Cheers Adam. No coffee? Why can’t we all just get along?
From Poss’s Twitter:
Be the Frisian National Party.
That could mean either that he knows it’s bad and he’s lowering expectations, or he knows it’s good and wants it look even better.
Did Rudd say this on Rove?
where did he say he’d take a hit in the polls?
besides the usual religious confreres, and members of various grps/organisations eg amnesty, there is no fraternal feeling
that said, certain functions invariably drag opponents together-whether they sneak out the back for a chat and a smoke is unknown.
Yeah.
Grog – just after he said “some of the mud sticks”
Twice.
So saying – I’ve also seen Rudd say this exact thing the night before Newspoll (after he knew the result) and it came in at 58.
Go figure.
Have the polls ever gone down when Rudd has says “he’ll take a hit”?
Turnbull should try it.
Unfortunately, the magic probably won’t work for him.
Galazy and Nielson are far too infrequent to care too much. Newspoll is it.
Rudd on Rove looked pretty chipper for someone who thought he was going to take a hit in the polls. Relaxed and funny and usual daggy self on prime time- is Rove really allowed to say that the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition is, and I quote, ”a lying sack of crap” – just asking.
As I say, these operate mainly at backbench level. The higher up the hierarchy you go, the less fraternity there is. The Parliamentary Christian Fellowship is mainly Protestant and mainly Coalition, although Beazley Sr and Crean Sr were among its founders. There is some co-operation on things like the US-Australian Parliamentary Friendship Group. When members travel together – like Gillard, Brandis and Pyne at the moment – they presumably get on reasonably well.
This is called “expectations management” – bludgers should know by now how this works.
You’re right Oz, Turnbull has tried the tactic before.
http://business.asiaone.com/Business/News/Story/A1Story20090205-119618.html
OZ
Correct! I am impressed. How did you know/ track down the info?
According to what I could understand of the doco my second cousins major achievements as a councillor appeared to be getting some bilingual signs installed and incouraging large scale organic farming.
What about cross bench – major party relations? Kerno and Evans was it? During QT I often see Mr X talking to either the Greens or the Opposition and he does a lot of joint press releases and being an independent he’d have to make friends or else he’d get lonely or whatever. He was in Adelaide’s Rundle Mall the other day with Hockey and my scum-bag local member whats-his-name but he probably wouldn’t know them at all really coz they are in the HofR.
The Senate is a bit more collegiate than the Reps. It’s smaller, the leaders aren’t there to inflame party passions, it gets less media attention, and no-one has a majority so no-one can push party hostility too far. Chris Evans is an amiable chap who keeps the temperature down at QT, although Carr and Conroy are much more excitable.
Interesting observation from Courtney Gibson:
Rudd is just identifying himself as the victim in the Turn-bull-sh^t-emailgate scandal. Helps to ensure he is not labelled as a bully and helps him get the sympathy vote and further alienates Turnbull.
Tom.
I was watching Miss Marple on Channel 2.
How did Rudd on Rove go? Did Bruno get involved?
Steve K see @771
If mud sticks it sticks not because there was really anything for it to stick about but because the media were prepared and implemented the smear. Even producing the mock email after being told it didn’t exist.
But we shouldn’t be surprised by now…world wide the murdoch media is hated as dishonest and partisan and has been the subject of a documentary.
OUTFOXED: Rupert Murdoch’s War on Journalism — Trailer
(Outfoxed documentary about Fox News from producer/director Robert Greenwald )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w39FnpuMRfo
However…news print isn’t the only access people have to politics and politicians.
entre nous, I did read your earlier post and I thank you for that. I was after a little more detail. I know there will be almost nothing in the papers tomorrow so it’s my fault for not tuning in.
BTW there were at 5 murders in tonight’s Miss Marple which made it a little less violent than this week’s proceedings in the House of Reps.
Fine, he just emphasised the “Turnbull is a fraud, but the government is getting back to work” theme of the last few days.
No, his segment was earlier.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/labor-to-take-poll-hit-from-ozcar-rudd-20090628-d1c4.html
Fairly accurate run down of Rudd on Rove (except its his third time, not second. Second time was on his birthday when he reported he was given tea towels depicting Jasper the cat and whatever the dog’s name is from cikey.com by his son).
Premeditated disregard for the truth as Olberman puts it pretty much describes them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_eC3R6Xfvg
There are many more…but it is a dead horse.
Don’t forget the week in review on Order In The House on ABC TV at midnight EST. A week such as the one just gone doesn’t come around all that often.
785
cikey=crikey
Thank goodness for that.
if the mud sticks from utegate, it won’t be because of the media’s help
it will be because the issue has referenced stereo-type ideas that have a long term background in australian politics
ie – you can’t trust the ALP with big business
Not saying its a winner for the libs, just saying it will help bring the 2PP back towards 50/50
Squig
You forgot the clincher
In 2020
785
Thanks – that’s helpful.
Galaxy – 56-44.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25704349-5006301,00.html
Interestingly I blame ‘75 for destroying the collegiate atmosphere, especially in the Senate, what with the ‘toecutter’ an all.
The reps lingered until daly/killen left.
No more bridge games before party/gvt spills
well so much for 50/50.. hehehehhe
The damage caused to Turnbull and the Libs this week may not be reflected in the polls this week. Turnbull’s lying and double standards and baseless mud flinging might take time to perculate through the mind of the average swinging voter but it will happen with an occasional reference to it from Tanner and Julia once she’s back on board. Journalists will certainly be keen to get her take on the week she was absent.
On top of that I am sure that the AFP report due by end July and police investigations will show Turnbull, Abertz and one or two others in a very poor light.
If Rudd takes a hit in the polls in the wake of fakegate I will admit to having no understanding of Australian politics at all.
As expected Turnbull’s personal ratings have taken a direct hit and his integrity is leaking badly. Up until now people only thought Turnbull was smart arsed and arrogant. Now, with new added sleaze and dishonesty Malcolm is the complete package. If the cat business is true he’s probabbly alienated every measureable demographic.
Quite an achievement.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25704645-5006301,00.html
Rudd is ‘cute’ according to Bruno.
Except for the members of the Cat Strangulation Society who reckon big bad Mal is a top bloke.
“MALCOLM Turnbull has paid for his botched attack on Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, with more than half of voters believing he was deceitful about a now-notorious fake email. Even among committed Coalition voters, nearly a third believe he has been deceitful and another 10 per cent say he has been dishonest. A Galaxy poll taken at the weekend has revealed the Opposition Leader’s integrity has taken a hammering, revealing a rump of only 7 per cent of voters who think he was “open and honest” during the affair.”
“Hit in the polls” my ass.
Steve K
and of course the “101 uses for a dead cat” demographic
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/101_uses_for_a_dead_cat
Seeing is believing…tv trumps news print.
I always had the feeling that Galaxy produce the most conservative figure of the lot, but just a feeling.
Gusface, Turnbull’s favourite book for sure.
Well Galaxy is showing the 2PP swing as the result of a rise in The Greens vote to 12%. That’s quite high compared to the other polls and I doubt Nielsen will replicate it.
Regardless of the TPP it seems that Turnbull has just become unelectable, with trust figures like that.
from my understanding the year of release was co-incidental to other feats of
catricide
Malcolm Turnbull
A.K.A. Simon Bond
Kev knew all along didn’t he Adam.
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/article.aspx?id=346918
This is the link for the Newspoll story
So does that mean 56/44? Same as Galaxy?
whats the number???
ok why relase now? maybe sky has mixed up galaxy with newspoll?
Kev is still bigger than jesus then?
Kevin sees all, Kevin knows all. In Kevin we trust.
Steady on Zombie
He’s only a demi-god
If Labour up 3 then it’s 56/44 same as Galaxy.
Bring on the Member for North Sydney…
No, he’s stuffed too. Bring on Abbott, he’s the last Lib left standing.
This is where the Liberals will be most angry. The fired their single shot and missed badly, hurting themselves. The real problem for them now is it won’t work again, it was a once only trick. People wont believe it a second time.
Well we still have
Bilson
Hunt
Keenan
Morrison
After that we’ve got nothing…
The Member for Wentworth put it all on Red and it came up Black…
He was also playing on a fake table.
Steve K – Nice one!!
The chips were real though…
No one takes the 15 year old seriously. That dog won’t…
He needs to learn how to speak properly first.
Howard bowled Rudd 0
Costello retired ‘hurt’ 0
Nelson bowled Rudd 0
Turnbull ‘hit wicket’ 2
Coalition 4 for 2
In a first, Indonesians have stopped a people smugglers boat from landing that was heading from Australia to Indonesia. The only occupant was a cat that spoke with a Sydney eastern suburbs accent.
nielsen 58-42
http://www.theage.com.au/national/support-for-turnbull-plunges-20090628-d19z.html
Thomas id correct that scorecard…
Howard – stumped Rudd
Nelson – caught and bowled Rudd
Costello – retired ‘hurt’
Turnbull – handling the ball
lol
BTW what is with the cat reference that came up with this week?
See that video link I posted earlier…..this will what is going in Liberal Party HQ right now. Uncanny how something 8 months ago fits perfect now.
What is this.
Pollster Mazurka?
Hockey is outpolling Turnbull on prefered leader:
I think he was timed out, he had his chances years ago.
Turnbull – caught tampering with ball, banned for life.
*phut*
Oh Dear:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/support-for-turnbull-plunges-20090628-d19z.html
The Liberal party are calling this a CATastrophe, what with the leader suffering from CATatonic outbursts and frequent CATerwauling. A CAT scan revealed no obvious CATaracts inhis eye.
Although not a CATacylsm, there is certainly a feeling that voter disenchanment will CATch on.
Mr Turnbull CATegorically denied he read CATo as a student, tho he did admit reading CATcher in the rye.
And the Liberals are going to put him on a CATamaran and send him to Indonesia?
So I think Rudd toned it down in the Parliament because he knew he had a poll surge.
Neilson easily the worst of the these three
Newspoll & Galaxy are within normal volatility (eg Newspoll TPP is same as 4 weeks ago)
But the AC’s gonna cause some problems
Heh.
I guess 56/44 might then actually be a 54+
56+ I mean
Why is it that the Liberal party, that supposedly hates red tape and government regulation, has forced the government to increase read tape and regulation:
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/06/whered-those-dollars-come-from.html
Who cares which country buys Australian debt. Australia is a mainly market, and internationalised economy!
The state of the Federal Liberal Party is getting as bad as the state of the Liberal Party of Victoria…
We dont deserve to get elected for a good while until we clean up our act, they all ought to be ashamed Menzies would think the lot of em are a disgrace!
Well hopefully this last episode will be an end to the smear type tactics from the Coalition. It has taken a few years…but hopefully this will convince them to give it up.
Your mob needs to stop nominating failed accountants and clapped out lawyers.
ShowsOn the ALP need to stop nominating bullyboy union bosses or left wing eco lawyers….
Rudd with Rove and Bruno:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6693510,00.jpg
Yeah it is really damaging the federal government having all those unionists in there.
“Turnbull may be dumped within days”
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25703645-5007133,00.html
So many choice quotes!
Interesting. On the front page photo of Rove, Kevin, and Bruno in the Australian there is a link titled “PM in a panic”. When one clicks on the link, the page is not found. They must have just got word of the Newspoll results…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25703645-5006784,00.html
They arent representative of society that’s all Shows…
Yes, they are all robots that are delivered into the community by storks.
I don’t think lawyers and accountants are “representative of society” either.
Jesus Christ.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25704929-601,00.html
Turnbull may have thought this 6 week break would have saved his bacon but it appears he’s done for…
This is funny considering that Hockey came across like a total buffoon last week both in parliament and on Lateline. Remember, Hockey said on Lateline that he didn’t know if the email was fake, here is him on Lateline:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oUMRzblqyb4/SkIVgepHw3I/AAAAAAAAA_c/8YyvioK8uM4/s400/who+sez+email+fake.jpg
Shows
Goddammit, now everyone knows.
860
ShowsOn me neither…
Looks like it’ll be a Sunrise election after all….
Australians have a sense of fair play, they don’t think using fake documents to score political points is fair. So many of them have changed their opinions of Turnbull accordingly.
I don’t see the point with the Liberals changing to Hockey, he won’t do any better than Turnbull, but he doesn’t have hundreds of millions to bankroll the Liberal election campaign.
The Liberals may as well stick with Turnbull, and effectively charge him millions of dollars for the right to be their candidate.
And they have all been sent back in time to save John Connor from WorkChoices.
Who is going to pay for the Liberal election campaign? You guys need Turnbull, he may be a hopeless politician, but he has the money to pay for the campaign by himself, and he as the ego to motivate him to do it.
In the Australian’s comment on the Newspoll results linked to by Oz #861, the Fairfax poll results are also mentioned. It is the first time that I recall that News Ltd have referenced a Fairfax poll. The message must have passed down from Rupert that Malcolm is persona non grata
How do the mechanics of a leadership challeng work? Can it be done when parliament is not sitting with MP’s voting from a distance? What electoral system do they use with three or more candidates – Optional preferencial voting?
Do they get to find out who the winner of the ‘leader’ ballot is before voting for the ‘deputy leader’ or is it done in one go?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25704929-601,00.html
As far as I know there are no proxy votes. The person must be present in the party room, on the day, in order to vote. If they can’t get there in time then they don’t get to vote.
The Australian article says a challenge is unlikely this week because some Liberals are overseas, e.g. Costello and Pyne.
How much did Turnbull donate last time? Would he still chuck a lowsy couple of Mill spare change from his back pocket if he was just an opposition spokesperson?
I’d be assuming that they would callfor a party room meeting in the normal matter, but because they aren’t sitting, all the MP’s would be required to fly into Canberra especially for that meeting – when the WA Libs had a similar situation with Paul Omodei, it was during a Parliamentry Recess from memory.
If Turnbull is dumped as leader, don’t expect him to hang around on the back bench. He could quit immediately forcing a by-election that the Liberals don’t want, that’s the kind of egotist I think he is.
Secondly, I think Barnaby Joyce and Warren Truss should be allowed to vote in a Liberal leadership ballot because they are both party leaders in their respective chambers, and they are both technically Liberals as well as Nationals.
I’ll bet these gentlemen are getting quite a few calls on thier mobiles atm
I think Costello is in the “anyone but myself or Malcolm” camp.
Pyne, I’m not so sure. I guess he will vote for whoever can help him become deputy leader.
Whatever happens, the Liberals should take the opportunity to dump Julie Bishop as deputy leader.
But Shows they werent elected as LNPers hence no vote…
Who are the numbers men in the Coalition?
Even “Our ABC” is reporting the bad polling for Turnbull.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/29/2610795.htm?section=justin
http://www.smh.com.au/national/turnbull-weaker-than-when-he-began-20090628-d1b3.html
Isn’t Senator Ronaldson Turnbull’s numbers man?
I have no idea who Hockey’s would be. If it is Pyne then Turnbull will win.
So if they want to have the vote before the net sitting they all have to haul their butts off to Canberra. Thats a bit harsh on the poor dears.
Although the period between now and the challenge is ‘waisted time’ limbo when there attacks on the ALP won’t get traction. Perhaps its a good thing for them that they have some time to think – they can have a good long hard look at themselves and ask themselves what they want to be. Maybe with the extra time they won’t rush into any poor decisions but will get the best candidate.
I always though that would be Turnbull but Costello used to make me laugh also. Abott isn’t stupid, there’s something almost human about him, which is a rare feat for a Tory but he is also a wacko scarey fruitloop. Hockey is kinda cute in an ugly sort of way – he reminds me of a lot of Tory’s I know personally and he may therefore be able to shore up the base which is what is needed right now. Pyne is also a typical Tory but he’s more like Dracula, whereas Hockey is a more innocent vampire (Tory in this analogy) like ‘The Count” from Sesomy Street.
Glen did you see my post at 499 on Germany?
Let’s face it. Turnball can’t moon walk and chew gum…
Just when we thought that Australia might get started on its ETS, as well.
Now who knows how the splits involved in choosing a new leader will interact with the splits on ETS support.
I guess that the new leader will still want to avoid a DD trigger unless they look like having a wonderful honeymoon period as leader.
THM the fact of the matter is the Greens lack a real leader…
They need another Joschka Fischer….
I think it is a monty for a CDU/CSU + FDP Coalition Government…
Whatever, I am severe. And the attitude is about laxity.
Just in case, I would like to remind anyone who cares, that I am and remain a Labor leaner.
But why, may I ask, is Kevin involved in this foolish thing, the free second hand ute.
Sure, in pre election mode, ‘all hands on deck’. A battered car will do.
But should it not have gone to the parking lot, immediately after the election.
Like, who if anyone, is using it now?
Have not noticed it in Parliament press stops/drive offs.
Interesting point. In order to be more popular than Turnbull, the next Liberal leader must support the CPRS legislation (which Turnbull is likely to do eventually). But if a Liberal leadership candidate says that they will instruct the party to vote for the CPRS, they probably won’t get enough votes to be elected leader.
Golly!