The latest Reuters Poll Trend weighted average of Newspoll, Morgan and ACNielsen results has federal Labor with a two-party lead of 55.8-44.2, presumably being weighed down a little by recent results from before the weekend.
UPDATE: Roy Morgan has joined in on the action with a small sample (546) phone poll including questions on leadership approval, which Morgan doesn’t normally do. It finds Malcolm Turnbull’s approval rating down to 25 per cent from 43 per cent in May, with his disapproval up a breathtaking 33.5 per cent to 62.5 per cent. Kevin Rudd’s approval rating on 63 per cent, up from 57.5 per cent in May, with his disapproval rating down from 33.5 per cent to 29 per cent. Labor holds leads of 56-44 on two-party preferred and 46 per cent to 39 per cent on the primary vote, which is actually quite mild by Morgan standards. Newspoll has also published its quarterly geographic and demographic breakdowns of recent polling by state, age, sex, and capitals/non-capitals.
Apart from that:
• Robert Taylor of The West Australian reports that Labor preselections for some highly winnable Liberal-held seats in Perth appear to be ”stitched up”. In the only two seats in the country which the Coalition gained from Labor in 2007, Cowan and Swan, those respectively named are Wanneroo mayor Jon Kelly and Slater & Gordon lawyer Tim Hammond. Kelly is interesting, as he ran as an independent against state Labor MP Margaret Quirk in Girrawheen at the 2005 election after a split in the Right faction. In Stirling, where decorated Iraq war veteran Peter Tinley failed to unseat current Shadow Workplace Relations Minister Michael Keenan in 2007, the nod is apparently set to be given to Karen Brown, former deputy editor of The West Australian and current chief-of-staff to Eric Ripper. Brown famously failed to win the new notionally Labor seat of Mount Lawley at the state election last September after suffering an 8 per cent swing, which many blamed on Alan Carpenter’s insistence that local member Bob Kucera make way for Brown. Peter Tinley is said to be holding out for a safe seat or a Senate position, and the unlikelihood of either suggests he will not be a starter at the next election. In Hasluck, which Sharryn Jackson recovered for Labor in 2007 after a term in the wilderness, Liberals are said by Taylor to be “working behind the scenes” to secure the endorsement of Mike Dean, who last week stepped down from his high-profile position as president of the Police Union.
• The ABC reports that Kathryn Hay will seek Labor preselection for Bass at next year’s state election. Hay is a former Miss Tasmania who became Tasmania’s first Aboriginal MP when elected at the age of 27 in 2002. After surprising everybody by dropping out at the 2006 election, Hay ran as an independent against Ivan Dean in the upper house seat of Windermere in May, and did very well to finish within 5 per cent of victory on the final count. With incumbent Jim Cox retiring, Michelle O’Byrne a sure bet for re-election, and Labor looking certain to win a second seat but very unlikely to pick up a third, the battle for the second seat is looking like a tussle between Hay, Beaconsfield mine disaster survivor Brant Webb, CFMEU forests division secretary Scott McLean (who famously came out in support of John Howard at the 2004 federal election) and Winnaleah school principal Brian Wightman, with only the latter looking an obvious also-ran.
• Rick Wallace of The Australian reports that George Seitz, western Melbourne Labor Right potentate and state Keilor MP, proposes to publish a “warts and all” account of his career in politics. Seitz is being forced out after nearly three decades in parliament due to a Victorian Ombudsman’s report which probed into the involvement of various state MPs in goings-on at Brimbank City Council. The aforementioned Wallace article is worth reading for a broader overview of the episode’s far-reaching impact on the Victorian ALP.
• Andrew Landeryou at VexNews reports that the closure of nominations has brought no challenges to sitting federal Liberal MPs in Victoria – including Kevin Andrews in Menzies, who was believed to be under threat from former Peter Reith staffer Ian Hanke.
• Nick in comments informs us that according to a Channel Nine news report, Labor polling has it trailing the Coalition 57-43 on NSW state voting intention.
2,238 Comments
This is pretty grim for the Libs; no matter which poll you prefer it is worse than the last election, which means more seats adn Senate numbers would be lost. Now is the time for the government to push through all relevant legislation in the Senate. They wouldn’t dare risk a DD trigger on these figures.
I realise that Antony Green and Pos have pointed out any DD trigger would be months away. Even so, is there any estimate or state by state breakdown of where the Senate numbers would change if a DD were triggered between now and christmas?
Glen @ 1611 wrote
Probably why they’re in power only in WA. As the saying goes, it takes “a big wo/man” to apologise. Failing to apologise always diminishes one in the eyes of those with the decency and guts to do it.
Interestingly, it takes MalT’s long-time friend Bob Ellis to come up with a handy list of things for which Howard’s Tories should have apologised and didn’t; just in case we’d forgotten some (I’d completely forgotten about Doug Moran), and a few insights into a younger MalT, in case we wanted them. He’s probably blown it
… followed by an interesting list and anecdotes.
None of this would have been raked up again had the Liberals had enough sense to recall the Howard Government’s cronyism (many would say corruption) and add 1 (demands Rudd & Swann resign over a 2min phonecall, which was all John Grant got) and 1 (the Howard Government’s cronyism and deception) to get The ALP will use televised QT to rake up our own past sins repeatedly if we’re dumb enough to go on a fishing expedition in the hope there’s more to a fake email than a 2min phone call
Expect to hear a lot of these in Parliamentary QT, all you Tories, unless you and your leaders have the sense to forget Utegate ever happened; but I doubt that, being as unconnected as BobE indicates, they do.
While I don’t wish to trigger too much debate about ALP/Lib reporting bias, I feel that this is evidence of a different bias (pro-Israel) on the ABC news website:
Amnesty International issued a report stating that Israel used excessive force in civilian areas in the invasion of Gaza, including the use of civilians as human shields:
SMH: Amnesty Accuses Israel over Gaza
http://www.smh.com.au/world/amnesty-accuses-israel-over-gaza-20090702-d6jl.html
Evidently this story isn’t important enough to make the world news at The Australian.
The ABC headline was “Israel and Hamas deny war crimes”:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2615563.htm?section=justin
Yet the story by ABC correspondant Anne Barker doesn’t document any denial of war crimes by Hamas. It puts together an AI report with analysis of Israeli use of human shields with separate descriptions of rocket attacks against Israeli settlements as war crimes. So it sounds like a “he said/she said” story about a report blaming both sides, when the AI report squarely blamed Israeli tactics in the fighting. The casualty toll was 1400 Palestinian vs 13 Israeli, which is hardly indicative of both sides being equally at fault. (Unless you think 100 Palestinian lives are worth one Israeli, which is, well, racism.)
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25725994-5013871,00.html
Comedy gold from Imre Saluszinski in the OO. Such nuance, such journalistic balance… I mean, how more fair could a journalist get than to quote Tony Abbott, John Howard and Alan Jones, all in the same story?
If I have one beef with Kevin Rudd, it has to be his “pussy footing” around China. I really dont know where he stands on the strategy relationships with China. He has given mixed messages all around, ranging from:
* chummy chummy with the Chinese President during APEC in Mandarin
* open criticizing China’s human rights records in Beijing, in Mandarin
* supposedly secret meetings with the Chinese
* snubbing the Chinese UK Ambassador in a BBC interview
* being accused of being the chief Ambassador for Chinese interests
* to “all the way with USA” mantra
* basically trying to be all things to all people in the China issue
PJK is right again of course, in term of our strategic position and politics with Asian countries. It’s a pity that we dont have a govt system that can have people like PJK in the Govt executive. PJK should be our FM, Smithy is a big disappointment.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/rise-of-china-no-cause-for-alarm-20090702-d6eo.html?page=-1
There has been much talk about the lack of DD triggers at present, but could the government use the bill re electoral reform that bit the dust back in March? The Libs might be tempted to block it again as it does threaten their funding base (eg reducing declarable donation amounts etc). The government should put this up again in August, as it would be a good result either way – it’s actually a pretty good piece of legislation (and so would be good to see pass into law), but if it gets voted down the government has a DD trigger.
Any thoughts?
Just regarding Imre:
The culmination of a typical OO bootstrapper. “Wastage” is established. They feel they don’t need to argue it, or call it “reports of wastage” or “alleged wastage” anymore.
How it must have vexed them to give up their one-banner campaign without any help from other papers, or even much from the Coalition as the Utegate business took off. hey were just about to give Rudd the ol’ one-two and the fake email came along, pushing the rest off the front pages. We haven’t seen one article on “wastage” since, but in their minds it is a proven fact.
Actually, in his speech the other day, Hartigan admitted the bootstrapper was “a campaign” and said that this was why Rudd and Gillard picked on News. It wasn’t in revenge for Utegate, it was a reaction to their “campaign” against “wastage” in the Schools program.
Nice to know these tired eyes can still see a phoney News beat-up when they try it on.
There won’t be an election before Christmas. The earlier one could be called would be around November 18 and given the minimum time required for ‘the campaign’ it’d put it much too close to Christmas. The Government would likely get stung if they interrupted peoples’ holiday/Christmas plans for their own political benefit.
I’m pretty sure it was a bill introduced in the Senate. DD triggers require introduction (both times) in the House of Representatives.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25716139-5014047,00.html
Christian Kerr chips in with his own brand of forensic fairness. Albeit headlined with a 40pt non-sequitur: “Would this man to buy a used car?”
How can this joke of a news organisation purport to produce a journal of record, given its naked anti-Rudd bias? How can it hope to be taken seriously in its endless pushing for higher standards of literacy when it makes such gross errors in big, bold typefaces?
Re “grass”, other recreational drugs & anti-drug policies …
I’ve not used grass because, waay back in the early 60s, at a Luau (?sp) in very smokey Surfers Paradise Pub, it was as if an evil gremlin whacked me across the eyes & nose with a baseball bat; thereafter, my sinuses were a better pot detector than sniffer dogs. That’s early 60s, as in “I then decamped to the Chevron where the Allen Brothers were playing!” Grass wasn’t illegal, probably because it grew wild through then-thick Q bushland. But by the mid 60s, it was illegal, and the first anti-drug (other than nicotine & alcohol) campaigns started. Damned if I could see the sense (other than to save the allergic ones’ reactions) in banning something anyone could grow, tho only if it wasn’t growing wild – which it was in the creek near the local SHS!
Let me repeat: Anti-(illegal) drug campaigns started in the mid 60s – more than 40 years ago.
LSD was still legal at the time & prescribed; until The Beatles too it up as did their fans. I remember the year of the first anti-LSD campaign (school lectures), because I was there only in 1967. Again, over 40 years ago The first anti-heroin (school) lectures were about the same time as the first Moon-landing (1969), and Country Party MLAs tried to roll Joh BP … again 40 years ago! By then, I was married, a parent, and my prob with pot & cost of antihistamines needed to go to pop concerts, even restaurants killed any desire to try others. But, brought up on the principle “Mind your own business!” I saw no reason, other than addiction’s horrors, why users couldn’t go to hell in their own hand-baskets, if they so desired.
More education cried Joh’s mob, the “Christians” and the CM more public campaigns; harsher penalties… as they’ve been crying ever more stridently since, and getting them – for 40 long, loong, looong years and still they’re demanding more of the same.
What has all the money spent on education & public awareness, all the harsher penalties, the CM etc screaming for action (currently about E in their usual holiday The Drug Surge campaign, actually achieved?
Far more pervasive use of far wider variety of purchased & home-grown, home-made recreational drugs! And a situation in which most crime, from murder to mother-bashing, are drug-related.
Several European cities I’ve recently visited have decided to treat drug-addiction as an illness, not a crime, and administer the drug (free in their medical systems) under supervision. The results?
There’s no money in drugs. The dealers leave town. The crime rate plummets – over 90% in Zürich – as do insurance premiums and sales of security equipment and the cost of ed, ad etc campaigns. People leave their windows open when weather permits. Bikes again line streets there & in Dutch/ some Scandinavian cities. Kids play outdoors, go to school, town, discos etc without their parents having the horrors about drugs.
Spot the campaign that does work!
Potential DD triggers (down the line):
Horse Disease Response Levy Bill 2008 (and related bills)
National Fuelwatch (Empowering Consumers) Bill 2008 (and related bills)
Safe Work Australia Bill 2008
Plus, if it were to be now laid aside in the HoR:
Families, Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs and Other Legislation Amendment (Emergency Response Consolidation) Bill 2008
As you can see from this there’s very little currently there to suggest there will be a DD anytime soon. The Libs will cave on Safe Work and Fuelwatch is a dead duck.
Qzymandius, all very funny but another thing that has been going on for years is that the Courier Mail lead story becomes the major talking point for Madonna King becomes the first question from the leader of the Opposition in Question time in the Queensland Parliament.
Even the worst Courier Mail beatup is given a good run for the whole day whether worthy of such scrutiny or not. Still despite all this Labor continues to win state elections so the News Ltd/ABC strategy is not as effective as many imagine it would be. It has just become a shadow aspect of Queensland life the population has accepted and they vote against the Courier Mail line at the ballot box.
http://www.newspoll.com.au/image_uploads/0607%20State%20&%20Dem.pdf
03/07/09:Geographic and demographic analysis – Voting intention and leaders’ ratings
I’m still trying to figure out why the coalition continues to do so well in WA, right from the last election up till now.
When News Ltd sees rabbles of Oppositions with weak leaders such as Queensland and the Federal Liberals openly display then the temptation is to try to fill the vacuum created by this lack of leadership.Back up their own importance by bringing out a Galaxy poll, not on a regular basis but whenever it suits the News Ltd political agenda and it is easy to believe their strategy is genuine and successful.
The bit they forget is that when people go to vote, News Ltd does not appear on the ballot paper, just the name of the hopeless rabble which the voters are quite willing to reject.
The QLD opposition is actually one of the better ones. NSW, Vic, SA, and WA clearly have more rabbles of oppositions.
Are you trying to suggest the most recent Galaxy poll should be ignored?
Bob all I can say is that you have been reading too much News Ltd trash and not enough Queensland hansard since the last election the Queensland Opposition is in a worse state than anywhere else in the country with Springborg towering over Langbroek. Do you really expect us to believe the Nationals will allow a weak Liberal breathing space to be Opposition Leader in his own right? It isn’t happening.
After reading that “piece” by Imre Salusinszky in today’s OZ, I sat here for 10 or 15 minutes just shaking my head at the level of rubbish and misinformation that is streaming out of this publication now.
I “never” thought I could day this, but The article from Shannahan is a standout in balance and objectivity in comparison with most of the other gerbage emanating from this supposedly, Australia’s premier newspaper.
How anyone could write something like this with a straight face is beyond me. Do these people take us for “fools” or do they just think we have such a faulty memory of events, that we could just accept something like this a being an accurate detailing of current and recent events?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25725994-5013871,00.html
It is well beyond time that the MSM in Australia was held accountable. Go, get em Ruddy!
Saw Kev’s little bit about the Murdoch press this a.m. and all said with slight smile on his face. He said there had been no apology or retraction re the fake email reporting from the 3 editors. Also mentioned that Julia G’s comment was not in retaliation as suggested by that mob.
He ain’t scared of them and they won’t be getting away with anything from now on.
Fantastic.
Trioli and a journo this a.m. were ridiculing Kev’s words about taking the ute to ‘Deni’. Their hero, John Howard, would never have said anything like that or tried to appear on popular media, they said. How dare Rudd do it.
ABC Breakfast is so funny that we watch the political bits now and then for a laugh. We’re never disappointed.
Ozymandias @4 wrote
Ah, yes, the dramatic irony of:
Rove is “beneath” Little Johnny’s Johnnycash for comment shock jocks? Oh spare me! What parallel universe is Imre Saluszinski in? Has I.S. not eyeballed Possum’s graphs? Does he not realise that the Libs have lost GenY, even Gen X and almost half of GenBlue (& never did have the Boomers)? Does he not realise that, to win government, Libs have to attract Rove-watching bloggers, twitters, You Tubers, My Spacere etc GenY, GenX … even ancient GenBluers like me?
Or, in fact, is he, like most NewsLtd opinionists, just utterly shi#ty that those generations form their opinions from and, more importantly on the new media & younger presenters like Rove and FM (soon to be digital) radio?
Hark to the message between the lines; more subtle than his boss’s Press Club rant – tho it might not circle the globe via the dreaded New Media. Hear this!
Storm those radio stations, Laddies! Smash those evil computers, those blackberries & iPhones! Destroy those Intertubes! Humankind will always need newspapers. Do it for Rupert, I say
We NewsLtd journos & our TV mates were the ones who provided Little Johnny with the spinning wheels, the yarn, and marketed the products of his spinning to our mutual advantage. And this Rudd destroyed all that; destroyed the greatest spinner of all! Now, just because we slammed him, spun webs of misinformation about him, created stupendous beat-ups, spread rumours – tried everything in our power to destroy him before the election – he has the hide to criticise us – even spurn us – for these new machines.
He’s evil! A ruthless politician. All spin and no substance – so unlike innocent, honest, eternally straightforward Johnny, who’d never lie, never sacrifice truth, justice and the Australian belief in a fair go to alljust to hold on to power!
Take the R out of Rudd, I say; smash his machines and their masters! Replace R with L and all will be alright in the NewsLtd Universe! With Rupert as our leader and dear Ned Ludd as out icon, we will prevail …
>em>In your dreams, I.S.
Kevin Rudd should just say “I’ll leave the media to examine itself and my personality all they want. If anyone has any questions of real national significance I’ll be happy to answer them”.
The WA electorate has had years and years of Coalition propaganda rammed down their necks by a partisan, conservative, anti-Labor press in the guise of the Western Australian.
Now that its presentation, opinion and reporting are more moderate, then I think you will find that that will gradually turn around to a more balanced level more reflective of reality!
LTEP, I have doubts about every Galaxy Poll outside of an official election campaign in Queensland because of the adhoc nature of their release by News Ltd. It is either produced and published on a regular basis or a joke for mine.
If you have to go to hansard to find disunity, you’ve just proven the point that the QLD opposition are one of the better ones.
I see. Sounds an awful lot like our conservative friends prior to the 2007 election.
News are a joke, and have been for some time. The last month has simply brought their shameful bias further into the light.
One of the most extraordinary comments ever posted on Poll Bludger. Do you think the editor of the Courier Mail and Madonna King might be better sources for Queensland Political information?
News ltd. have probably lost a lot of people like me. I used to buy at least 2 papers every day up until 24/11/07.
I know what line they are going to take and mostly what the agenda will be. Why bother wasting money when I can tour around the web getting a wider perspective on everything. Anything worth noting is always mentioned on PB anyway.
I had been thinking about buying weekend papers again but Hartigan convinced me that I don’t need them.
He was so abnormally jumpy in the Press Club speech and, true to form and just like the Libs, he turned to denigration. He is hurting that the bloggers are well informed and don’t need his papers. I’m still saving money – you beaut.
News Ltd papers are a joke UNLESS… your in-laws are devotees of all thing Liberal. It warms the cockles of their hearts and keeps their joie de vivre up and running. It helps them maintain their rage against the unbelievable “stupidity” of the electorate (especially the part they consider “my ilk”) for having had the temerity to have elected “the other mob” to the office which anyone can see has “Reserved for the Gentry” and “No Riff-Raff” written all over it!
Steve – Do you think Madonna King should acknowledge on her program that her husband is the editor of CM if she mentions a story from that paper.
Steve Price the same with his wife working for Hockey.
It is a bit similar to cash for comment and I think the audience should be made aware of the connections.
probably not worth spending too much more time discussing the OO and the other biased rages. Fascinating to see though that despite being continually caught with egg on their faces, rather than appear contrite and more balanced, they become more shrill and hysterical.
I’m glad that AT LAST Rudd is alerting the voters to the shenanigans and I hope he keeps going until he gets an apology over the fake email coverage
Do you think they’re the only news outlets?
In Federal politics there is a world of difference between reading the whole evidence presented to the Senate Economics Committee and the News Ltd reports of what happened that Friday afternoon.
sorry rags not rages, although they do put us in rages!!
The Courier Mail started to go down hill after Mitchell was appointed by Murdoch to run it. I have two very fat folders of clippings from that time which form part of my media file which I put together during my Uni studies. The biggest barrow he pushed was IR and he continually wrote Editorials containing blatant misinformation and pushing the Coalition line of resurrecting the push from the 1890’s of individual employment contracts which fed ultimately into Howard’s “Workchoices” Legislation.
There was no coincidence that this line coincided with Mitchell’s shift to The Australian and the campaign it ran on behalf of Howard on Workchoices. Murdoch did very well out of Howard’s advertising campaign to sell Workchoices and Mitchell ensured he provided as much “free” support for it as he could.
Unfortunately for Murdoch, (and Howard) the lucrative revenue tap has now been well and truly turned off and they are trying desperately to damage the Rudd Government to try and get their favoured benefactors back in power.
Which leads to Steve’s quote which I find, is very apt and accurate as reflected in the QLD and Federal election results and the continual good polling for Rudd and Labor.
I just read Bernard Keane’s bits on twitter while he was watching Hartigan. They are very funny.
As far as not knowing the famous email was a fake goes. Doug Cameron was telling them at the time Erica was extracting words from Grech that opposition senators “were making things up”.
At least he’ll still have his recipe section to keep him warm at night
Loved this one: “thank god there’s only a few minutes to go in the tripe”
Dario
I couldn’t understand the recipe section bit. There are great sites for recipes like epicurious. I can’t imagine anyone downloading a recipe from a tabloid.
That’s their main problem. Their journalists aren’t experts at anything and are almost always thick as abrick. If you want politics, you go to a political blog of your persuasion. If you like dogs, there are expert blogs on that. The people running them actually know about the subject, as do the posters there. Whether it’s art, science, politics, hobbies or ANYTHING, a tabloid is not the place to go.
Plus the one about how many journos have been sacked. Funny how Fairfax sacked employees have been blown up in news ltd. papers but not a word about their own.
Bernard was just trying to keep them honest.
Yeah, it’s got me flummoxed. But if Hartigan reckons it’s his saviour then News is in a lot more trouble than we thought.
You’re right, Dio. Plus their recipes push ingredients from the advertisers which is, of course, their right to do but there are far better recipe sites to check out.
Cook and the Chef is a brilliant site. That little bloke does some really good Asian stuff and Maggie does it for the traditionalists.
Hartigan claimed “deadline pressure” as one of the reasons, in fact the main reason, Rudd’s denails were not printed in those infamous Saturday editions of News rags.
This only detracts from his argument that their “brilliant” journalists have it over bloggers every time. Newspapers are so slow.
Of course this allows them to claim “pressure of deadline” when they leave a wrong story in the papers basket at Sunday supermarket checkouts. Something palpably false, a war headline stands there, catching everyone’s eye (and occasionally being purchased) screaming “Rudd Gone!” or similar, well after the real story has been established.
I remember suring the Scores business, Milne had said Rudd was chucked out of the nightclub for “drunken misbehavior”. This story was changed before 10am on the Sunday in question, with the misbehavior bit completely excised… yet it remained there as a wailing headline all day for the punters to read.
Like herding cats I’d imagine…
There is always an article somewhere which will fit with your own political bias and I am sure one which is against it. So why not read a newspaper as some of the background reading can be food for thought, whether you agree with it or not. To watch television news across several station could lead one to think they were discussing totally diferent news stories. Polls if they ask biased question can give misinformation so can we believe and the only result that counts is an election which hopully will get rid of Family first. 1% of the nation stally the rest of it.
“Turnbull vows to bounce back from poll battering”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25726884-601,00.html
From what I understand of Poss’ analysis, this is the statistical equivalent of the proverbial snowball’s chance in hell (ie; possible, but unlikely).
Julian
in the online version
Scorpio re that Imre Salusinszky story. Notice that in both situations the Coalition was saying something happened and the ALP was saying it’s not true.
Which party was telling the lies? They are the guilty ones, as they where the ones lying.
A load of rubbish of course. If you even thought twice about it the veracity of the purported email seemed very shaky. Given people on here were able to quickly call into question whether such an email likely existed shows that the ‘professionals’ simply weren’t exercising their duties with adequate care and diligence.
Hard to see how Turnbull can bounce back when Rudd will get up every day and say it is now x days since the Opposition Leader based on a fake email alleged I was corrupt and mislead parliament. I now call on the Opposition Leader to stand in this place, apologise and resign!
“Kevin Rudd’s spin puts spell on Canberra press gallery”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25725994-5013871,00.html
Political wheel borrow pushing aside, isn’t this article from The Australian is a little self indulgent? A media outlet and journalists reporting on…media outlets journalists.
No need to call on him to resign anymore I think… just make it plain that he didn’t when he should have
“media outlets AND journalists”
It’s a bit like their polls. Only ‘they’ know them and are qualified to have an opinion on them. Back in your place, PB plebs!
Dario, the number of days very quickly get large and become a running sore for Opposition Leaders who have a day they would rather forget. The trick is to never let them forget.
It’s all about $$$$$ and teh Advertisers.
Hartigan was basically saying news was the fount of all wisdom and us evil bloggses were damming news’s rivers of gold with all our self indulgent crap.
(especially with News’s “special” friend Howie on the sideline)
I feel his pain.
Scorpio at 20
Imre’s descrition of John Wells :
“Sydney public relations consultant John Wells”
Actual desription
“In 1987, John Howard recruited John to his personal staff as press secretary and political adviser.’
Itep – the majority of news ltd. journos rarely exercise their duties with adequate care and diligence. I omit people like George M.
The biggest problem for the MSM is that their lack of due care is so often easily exposed within minutes and is all over the web immediately.
They are not used to this and resent it. It hurts that they are no longer the only source of information. It’s good for everyone else tho.
Kit, only the Government indulges in spin. We know this because News tells us. You are seeing things. Move along.
And then the Telegraph dummied up the text they had been read over the phone to look like a real email by adding genuine-looking headers and so on to give the feeling of verisimilitude to the whole thing… except that they put “Godwin Grant” as the email addressee.
This was clearly intended to reinforce the idea in the minds of slow thinkers that they had a “real” copy, straight off Godwin’s printer. It’s bad enough that they didn’t print the denial, but worse that they deliberately dummied up the fake to look real.
Rudd was furious about this by the way and he made a big deal of the faking of the format in his first speech to the parliament on the Monday. I’d be damn angry too.
Suncorp has changed the pay structure for its new CEO.
http://business.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/suncorp-ceo-forced-to-share-the-wealth-20090702-d6d1.html
I don’t know where the hell they sent Dennis Shanahan but he’s come back quite different to the old Dennis. His articles are actually the best in the OO ATM and he’s lost a lot of weight.
Ltep – Thanks for listing some of the rejected bills. I take your point that these are unlikely to be used a DD trigger – the Safe Work Bill is possible (especially given that it is vaguely IR related), and I’d still suggest that the electoral reform bill is also possible.
The last DD was in 1987, and was (ostensibly) about the Australia Card. This issue did not feature in the campaign at all (some older PBers might remember a certain Queensland premier hogging the limelight that year) and was not pursued afterwards.
I guess the government would need to be mindful of a backlash in the event of too cynical a run to the polls, though I think the idea that the current Senate is a bit feral is already inculcated in the public mind (and so an early election – on any issue – would be justifiable)
Last night on ABC 702 Tony Delroy’s phone in topic was Afghanastan. A caller ranted about how Rudd was worse than Howard, said it took him 2 yrs to bring the troops home from Iraq, said he was groomed as a CIA spy for the Yanks, was a member of the DLP in his youth, he was a dangerous , dangerous man and Australia couldn’t afford to have him around etc etc.
Delroy let him rant with all the slander and lies he could come up with interjecting with agreeable mmms every so often, the next caller stuck up for the Yanks saying the didn’t have to go to help and go into Europe in WW2 and straight away Delroy flew in saying Oh i have to interrupt you there, what about Pearl Harbour. Incredible. he sat by practically egging the nutter on to slander Rudd, no interruptions then.
can their ABC get any worse?
Sorry if this has been posted but the OO’s editorial today was another diatribe solely devoted to Crikey. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25724176-25209,00.html
Unfortunately it just isn’t. Bills introduced firstly and then rejected in the Senate cannot be the subject of a DD because section 57 of the Constitution relates to bills passed by the House of Representatives.
To create a DD from the electoral reform bill they’d need to re-introduce the bill in the House, have it rejected by the Senate; then reintroduce and pass the bill 3 months later in the House and again have it rejected by the Senate.
Vera – send a complaint to the ABC Delroy does that quite a bit.
what a crock about deadline pressures. Rudd made it clear that his office was contacted on the Friday for comment BEFORE the article was published and he denied it and not only was the denial not published but a copy of said email (with Grech misspelt as Grant) printed alongside the story
From the OO editorial
ROTFLOL
The signal lights were flashing brightly from both Grech and his boss as well as from Cameron that by pushing the issue to its preferred conclusion Abetz was being led into a trap.
Because of his determination to have the “damaging” e-mail revealed for all the world to see and his brash-full arrogance and feelings of self importance of his role in the issue, he totally missed it.
If he had picked up on the supple messages, which seemed quite evident and backed off, he could have saved Turnbull and his Party an awful lot of embarrassment and grief.
I am so glad he was too stupid to wake up to it in time!
BH, I noticed that myself
I don’t usually listen to him, I wish they’d put Trevor Chappell in his time slot.
Frank Devine dies
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25727110-12377,00.html
Steve 62
Its a good start on executive salaries, but nowhere near far enough. I have been reading the draft paper from the Productivity Commission inquiry and it still talks about amendments to current regulation, as though corporate boards and stock exchanges will regulate themselves. They won’t. They make too much money ripping people off, knowing that even on the occaisions they are breaking our numerous but weak laws, half the time nobody will investigate, and most of the time they will not be prosecuted by a regulator that has insufficient resources to prosecute any but the largest cases.
The part of our system that worked best in the GFC was the banking regulation, where a competent regulator (RBA) regularly checks up on banks and made sure teh rules are followed. Its the only solution.
News Ltd had plenty of time to include Rudd’s advices that the email DID NOT exist. Pretty important info. It really appears as though they were intent upon trying to smear Rudd by ignoring extremely important facts available to them early. They do have a case to answer to the public. They won’t though.
Anyway, who are we trying to kid. The murdoch media world wide has a reputation for doing what it can to support conservative political parties. Their is a documentary on it.
Vera – I only hear Delroy if I’m sleepless and waiting for Trevor. Trev’s got the best program on ABC and it’s a pity it is only at night.
Delroy, before the election, was heavily into promoting little Johnnie. Twas a bitter disappointment to him that Rudd won.
Still think radio and TV people should stop anyone making deliberately untrue statements about anyone. They only need to press the button or say ‘I don’t think that is correct” but Delroy never does.
Have to go out now but hope our team does better this week. Juliem will be thinking the opposite.
News Ltd are nutty. They promote the very thing they attack. If they ignored Crikey and the blogs many wouldn’t know they existed.
The best thing that can happen to alternative on-line news and discussion forums is to be attacked by the MSM.
The MSM do have a point about the lack of stories being broken by Crikey et al. Given that Kevvie and Jules are bucketing News so much at the moment, it’s about time they sent a few stories to the blogosphere to break to underline their point.
From the OO Editorial, a veiled threat?
There certainly seems to be a huge disconnect between the OO’s vision of itself and reality. The editorial talks about “rants”, but what was Kerr’s article yesterday? Balanced, sober, thought-provoking journalism of the highest class? Similarly Saluzinsky’s piece today. I suppose he had an arguable proposition, but his sources were pretty crook (and their bona fides somewhat obscured).
Then we come to the doozy: the faked emails, made up to appear superficially genuine with a bit of creative Photoshopping. Not only was that a fake upon a fake, but they even screwed up the fakery! If these are the standards that OO editorial is talking about, the disconnect is complete.
Diogenes @ 66 wrote
There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary. (Brendan Behan)
Pretty inclusive, don’t you agree, Hartigan?
Vera @ 65 wrote:
What are AM & FM talk-back radio’s demographics? How many phoners are Gens X & Y? Or are most GenBlue and Boomers with giant kauri logs where chips should be? Wouldn’t most X&Yers be twittering, texting, blogging and Intertubing? Aren’t most Boomers & GenBlues set in their voting ways?
Isn’t that exactly why Hartigan etc are so shit#y?
I wonder what percentage of readers read the editorial of a newspaper and what percentage read the OO? Combine those to bits of data and I’m thinking very few people will be aware of the OO editorial let alone what it is saying.
There’s a great comment on the Pure Poison site about the old vs new media war.
“BH Posted Friday, July 3, 2009 at 12:22 pm | Permalink
Vera – I only hear Delroy if I’m sleepless and waiting for Trevor.”
Hubba, hubba!
I’ve yet to read a Crikey article and don’t plan to anytime soon.
Brilliant idea Diogenes. Let’s mark this as the start of the Bloggers’ Coming Of Age.
I’ll go one further… a “Bloggers-only” press conference? No MSM allowed.
God, that’d nark Harto. He couldn’t rant about blogs not mainstream if they’re sipping Prime Ministerial tea and munching on the Iced Vo-Vos.
I wonder whether New outlets would print any major stories that came out of it? Or whether they’d follow their own advice and ignore it?
Bob 1234,
Mate, you have NO understanding of the media coverage in QLD and trying to take Steve to task on something that he is more than well informed on, only demonstrates either your ignorance or you are back on your usual trick of baiting every other poster here to get a reaction.
Just for you, I will give you a run-down on the QLD media. News Ltd publishes the “only” daily and Sunday news paper in Brisbane which feeds throughout the State outlets.
Every single Regional Newspaper is owned by the same operator and they feed off News Ltd primarily, which means that you read the same National & State “news” articles (slightly adapted sometimes) in every newspaper in the State except a handful of “free’ ones.
If that is not “control” of information and opinion, I don’t know what else it could be!
The Commercial TV networks with the exception of Channel 10 sometimes, present QLD centric News and Current Affairs Programs which means that they omit material that southern viewers get exposed to.
This was very evident after the e-mail was exposed as a fake and 7 & 9 virtually ignored the dust-up that followed with at best, a light air-brushing. Thanks to posters on PB for keeping Queenslanders up to date with what was being aired further south.
Just further evidence of control of information in order to try and shape public opinion in a manner favourable to the Coalition or conversely, to limit damaging fall-out from adverse issues.
By the way, it looks like the IT people at The OZ have downloaded another cookie into my computer.
This time it automatically switched from an open tab of the Australian Home Page to “Video Game Downloads”.
I clicked the “back” button a couple of times and it went back to the OZ web page but before it could download fully it switched back to the “Video Game Downloads” site.
There must be some way that they can be taken to task over this blatant high-jacking.
http://www.filefront.com/
I’m sorry but i’m not going to reply to such venomous posts.
talkingpointsmemo won a Polk Award in the US for its journalism. They get their posters to do some of their work for them on any given topic, eg finding out what the evidence is for alcohol being a problem in indigenous communities and what possible solutions there are.
I think Crikey should cultivate that kind of journalism which would attract Ministers to give them interviews and stories. You just need a critical mass of interested posters on any topic to prepare the groundwork to get it off the ground.
If ‘breaking’ a story is simply the act of publishing a leak (which, in so many of the political stories, it appears to be), then I suspect increasingly polllies will leak to the more well known bloggeratti and Crikey et al will ‘break’ a lot more stories (maybe we can look forward to Bilbo and Poss breaking some big ones). There is still of course the breaking of stories that comes with hard graft investigative journalism, and that typically requires resources the alt media don’t yet have, but hopefully may acquire in the future.
Actually, a blog here actually tried to do an article on the NT intervention and the Minister’s office knocked them back for comment saying they don’t talk to gossip websites.
They just don’t get it, do they?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2616033.htm?section=justin
The most up-to-date data in the report is 2006 and 2007. Who was in government then, Julie?
http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/90130/overview-booklet.pdf
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2615892.htm?section=justin
Malcolm, for your info, here are two bits of data out today.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2616043.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2615955.htm
Chicken
What happens if News Ltd breaks a story in July or August that Springborg on behalf of the dominant National faction of the LNP challenges Langbroek as the passive Liberal faction of the LNP for Leadership of the party? Do we then get excited about news Ltd being the first with the story that one would never read on a Crikey blog?
You don’t like to get “sprung” very much do you, but you sure can dish it out.
Back in your box, Bob!
Hugo @ 64
It was pursued afterwards. The Government announced its intention to make the Australia Card Bill a priority and the necessary step of reintroducing it to Parliament was taken despite mounting opposition. It was only abandoned after John Stone dropped Ewart Smith’s bombshell in the Senate on 23 September.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/kl7662
The Editorial in today’s OZ mentioned before, has a perfect description of that Newspaper and its on-line version in its last sentence.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25724176-25209,00.html
What was omitted was, “Published exclusively for the benefit of rusted-on, Conservative, Coalition supporters”.
The gloves are off, News Ltd has declared war and are opening up with a barrage of “cream puffs” instead of howitzers.
Can anyone tell me what the “Humpty Dumpty Effect” is? Dennis writes a very factual analysis of Turnbull’s plight under the headline “Malcolm Turnbull risks Humpty Dumpty effect” but there is no reference to it in the article.
Is he saying that MT is a broken egg and that the Libs shouldn’t waste their time getting all their horse and all their men to try and put Malcolm together again?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25725754-601,00.html
A quick google:
ltep source
http://www.spiraldynamics.org/theory/chngtran.htm
This quote here shows that either Malcolm Turnbull is incompetent or he had descended into some fanciful universe of his own where it was only just a bad dream and that the rightful order of things will soon be restored!
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25726884-601,00.html
News Ltd seem to be putting some distance between themselves and Turnbull at the moment but are determined to hold the line on propping up the Coalition which is currently in total disarray and have been since the election!
I thought we have been discussing LNP pollies for quite while.
Ran out of a’s
PM turns on news over ozcar affair
interesting that its not utegate any more and that Rudd defending himself against smear is “turning” on news ltd. I hope Rudd pursues them fully over this
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25725753-5013871,00.html
Read this in an article in the West Australian:
This completely ignores most of s 57 of the Constitution. Even if the deferment could be classified as a ‘failure to pass’, the Senate rejecting the bills in August would not meet the requirements of s 57 as it would require identical bills to be passed by the HoR 3 months after the ‘failure to pass’ (i.e. no earlier than 25 September 2009) and then rejected/failed to pass.
The Senate vote would need to be no earlier than late September, not in August. I don’t understand why the writers of articles don’t at least try and come to grips with the technicalities.
scarily, Shanahan is emerging as the most balanced at the OO these days
SA Libs in total disarray. Unlike the Federal Libs? Not happy with a bit of media scrutiny eh?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25727141-601,00.html
OO editorial
The only original content The Australian’s writers often offer are rants about what they read in The Age or SMH.
Ha! “My new stepsister is brilliant, therefore I am brilliant too!!”
Pot, meet Kettle.
someone should do a thesis on why the libs are so bad at being in opposition. I think the born to rule mentality makes it impossible for them to function when they are not in power. even the opposition leaders that suceeded like howard and kennett had previously failed and came in on the back of a unpopular govt and leader
And what high standards that august body strives to uphold. One day I’d like to see the MSM explain why journalists are viewed as the slimiest profession other than used car salesmen. Until they realise why everyone detests them, they will never improve.
Dio, there seems to be a “race to the bottom” happening at the moment. They are probably seeing just how low they can go by the next poll to determine ratings by profession.
Sorta like a “limbo rock” competition. “How low can you go”. lol
One day I’d like to see the MSM explain why they should be called journalists
Brilliant-Investigative-Journalism Watch
…from the annals of the News Home Page:
Keane compares the US and Oz ETS’s. Obama wins handsomely.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/03/coalitions-ets-position-threatened-by-us-moves/
Ltep (67) -
Are you suggesting that the electoral reform bill was introduced first in the Senate? Surely it passed through the House first, given that it was a government-sponsored bill (I was away at the time, so I am happy to be corrected). If so, and it was passed again by the House and rejected by the Senate in August, it would meet the criteria for a DD.
Unless I’m missing something….
I might be paranoid, but there must be someone from The Australian monitoring PB and other blog sites at the moment.
I have had another bug inserted on my computer and it has only happened when I log on to the OZ web site.
Just clicked on to their home page from a link and got redirected to this.
Yet the Address bar at the top is showing this!
If the person responsible is reading this, then get this rubbish off my computer pronto or I will refer the matter to the AFP and let them analyse my computer.
The OZ IT people would have got my IP address from my comments on their blog pages so it will be easy to trace.
A while back, I had a bug inserted so that every time I logged on to the OZ web site, my Browser crashed. It only happened with the OZ site and no other. But it is probably only my imagination and not because I have been a constant critic of their miserable excuse for a news outlet.
You are. Government bills can be introduced in either house. In this case as the responsible minister (Special Minister of State, as the time Senator Faulkner) was in the Senate the bill was introduced there.
You need an ad blocker.
Ltep (116) -
OK, thanks, that explains that. The Horse Disease Response Levy Bill it is then!
BB, there’s something really strange going on. I just refreshed the page and was reading your post when the page suddenly blipped and all the gravatars disappeared.
Get a virus checker. Serious advice.
Do you not have one in in this day and age?
And don’t fall for the “We will scan your computer for free” shareware stuff. Purchase a reputable virus checker and ad blocker, from a shop if possible.
ltep @ 104
Could it possibly be because they get paid the same either way?
Refreshed again and they reappeared. I’m pretty sure now that someone is reading my hard drive from another source or something similar!
BB @ 118 + Scorpio @116
If you’re using Firefox the add-on Adblock Plus works a treat.
Scorpio,
AVG is a free anti-virus program that craps on top of the bloatware that is most commercial anti-virus suites.
http://free.avg.com/
I’ve got the latest AVG edition, Add Blocker and Firewall installed but I think they are easily bypassed by someone who really knows what they are doing.
I only log on to news sites and a handful of blogs and a reasonable person wouldn’t expect to get hit upon by “Australia’s leading news provider”? Would they?
Not a very happy chappy!
Also using the latest Firefox!
BtW Possum, it looked suspiciously like Shannahan was feeding off you for content in his article today!
Alternative to AVG is avast! Home Edition- it’s free. I find it friendlier than AVG. It updates itself daily.
Did the cumulative state by state newspolls on Antony’s calculator –
ALP 103; LNP 44; Ind 3…
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2010/calculator/?swing=state&national=0&nsw=3.3&vic=4.7&qld=4&wa=3.3&sa=5.6&tas=0&act=0&nt=0&retiringfactor=1
Scorpio, also use Spybot Search & Destroy for your adware/malware etc
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/home/index.html
Prefer AVG to Avast, which shits me with its constant popups
Malcolm says the Rabble “Should win the next election…” . Why?
Born to rule? Superior policies? What?
Grog, my monte carlo sims turned up 100 as the most likely result.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/07/03/election-simulation-alp-17-seats/
They have Nielsen aggregated in as well – which pulled things back a bit from just using the Newspoll data.
A lot of the individual simulation results show a vast number of currently held Coalition seats becoming marginal on any swing around the 2% mark. The distribution of the margins of currently held seats isnt good for the Coalition this election, or probably the one after.
I downloaded “hijack this” a day or two ago when someone suggested it when I got the first OZ bug. Haven’t used it yet because it could compromise my system if I make a mistake with it but it seemed to identify the bug.
Somehow the first bug has mysteriously disappeared to be replaced now, by this new one!
Thanks, Dario. I have used it previously and might have to install it again to try.
Dario # 131
Ignore the pop-ups. They go away after a few seconds if unattended.
Generally, this a good site for comparing AVs. Most have free versions.
http://www.av-comparatives.org/
Why in the heck would Labor be running Karen Brown in Stirling?
Running someone whose main claim to fame is losing a safe Labor state seat would not seem to be a bright move against a marginal-seat member who has already fended off one high-profile challenger.
Not good enough for me I’m afraid
If a similar thing happens next election as happened in 2007, with Labor on 55-45 just prior to the election and there is a movement of 2% towards Labor like what happened to the Coalition in Nov 2007, then it will be a massacre for the Libs.
Only 100 seats Poss?? That must make Turnbull feel so much better
Dario
This may be useful to reduce the pop-up time. Maybe you can set it to zero?
http://support.jodohost.com/showthread.php?t=10727
Encumbency can certainly be a big benefit if you don’t have a millstone around your neck (a la WorkChoices). I think the economy will be the biggest factor. Should we fare relatively well in the next year, expect a healthy increase in majority. If not, it will be an interesting election.
I reckon at this point, he’ll take what he can get!
Can’t be bothered going back to Avast. Happy with AVG at the moment.
Morgan 56-44, with huge increase in Turnbull’s dissat rating.
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2009/4396/
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2009/4397/
Only 546 sample
Labor’s not exactly surging ahead despite Turnbull’s troubles; I think this is due to continuing concerns over the economy, debt, etc. Hopefully, now that Turnbull’s cred’s been destroyed, these will begin to turn in Labor’s favour too.
I don’t think it will matter. It would be pretty close to the mark even if they had a larger sample. Pretty well mirrors the others!
So without the Nielsen, I presume 110 seats would be closer to the mark
Not exactly surging ahead? I think you’ve been spoilt by 60/40 polls me lad
I think the Coalition vote intention is being held up by the “rusted-ons” who will stick no matter what!
Just how long Turnbull can hang on to any waverers or disillusioned in that group is another matter.
Rudd Labor is just sitting back ready to pick them up if they become available, but they will move with the wind somewhat.
Gus, removing Nielsen the 104,105,106 and 107 seats are all pretty close to being equally likely.
Scorpio @ 87 wrote:
Bob1234@89 wrote
“Venomous”? Bunkum! Just because Scorpio happens to be right, 100% right (on more that one count). As you obviously know nothing about the QLD media scene & having been caught out, turn nasty – more of the “Us (sic) Tories never apologise”, I suppose.
Fairfax has no weekday print presence in my part of Queensland, and the weekend papers (early airmail editions) are expensive interstate papers, not Q versions thereof. My normal print paper choice range is: The Australian, The Courier Mail, the local “rag” from the Regional group Scorpio mentioned (Note Brissie readers have a choice of CM or Oz, unless their Ipswich/ Coast work colleagues leave their local rags where others can read them). OH (not a computer user) buys the CM & local rag for the puzzles & gossip (IMO neither worth reading); I do some of the puzzles & sometimes use the TV guide (unless OH draws something to my attention). OH also listens to Mrs CM, ie Madonna King.
I try to watch the 4.30 national news bulletins which feature something other than crime, car-crashes, fires, near-accidents, sport – and anti-ALP “wrap” of Fed & QLD Parliament and other political gossip that infests Q commercial “news”. The ABC’s not much better; in fact, it’s sounding more & more like a non-commercial stringer of commercial news. Nowadays, I listen to the ABC headlines at 6.00, then return at 7.30. Thank goodness it’s all free, or ABC,5,7,9,10 & SBS would have lower subscription rates than pay TV.
Most of my news comes from feeds, “Just-in” type postings, Fairfax on-line, crikey, blogs & boards, as well as International papers, Huffpost, blogs etc, and friends’ emails.
Possum, do you have a response to my post @ 131?
Daily crikey:
A conundrum for many on here. Who do they disagree with? Crikey, or the Labor government?
Lord D youre missing main points of the poll- labor has turned around the shift to the coalition of recent months and turnbull’s dissatisfaction ratings are through the roof. Labor would be delighted on both counts
Re discussion on News Ltd.
I don’t bother to read their propaganda rag sheets anymore. I don’t even click on the links posted here on PB.( I don’t want to add to their internet traffic).
I rely on the following for my daily political fix:
1) SMH
2) The Age
3) PB
4) Pollytics
5) Other sites (apart from News Ltd) posted by PBs
6) The Huffington Post (is there an equivalent here in Oz?)
Rudd up 70-20 in PPM. So more than half of the people who will vote Liberal think Rudd would be a better PM than Turnbull.
And Turnbull’s approval-disapproval goes from +4% to -38%, a lazy 42% drop.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall…
Not too sure if this has been posted before or not. But the Fuhrer is not amused with Wacko Jacko, especially after what Jacko did to his nephew:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELyTBXzfQJ8
Scorpio – the Newspoll data sort of speaks for itself to the point where it’s pretty much impossible to draw any other conclusion.
If Dennis didnt say that sort of thing it’d be a worry.
OzPol Tragic,
Our mate Bob has a tendency to make a hasty exit once he is sprung!
He really started to get to me the other night when he had a shot at every regular poster, including Antony Green, Adam and Possum, without “ANY” back up to his little rants.
Did you notice that when I challenged him on it, he mysteriously disappeared.
Ruawake (135) – yes I heard MT say that too. He also repeated the line that “the polls go up and down”. This might usually be the case, but so clearly not at the moment. The polls have been around and about 55-45 for two and half years now. Seems for the Libs, the polls just go down!
Yet more proof (if we needed it) that the Libs are convinced that the voters are just waiting for the chance to vote out Rudd & co (as opposed to be broadly satisfied with the performance and direction of the government). All the Libs need to do is to MAKE THEM SEE how hopeless Rudd is. Stand by for more utegate-type stings, and no work whatsoever on policy.
It’s going to take at least one more election loss to get it through their thick skulls that the great unwashed don’t hate Rudd like they do. To be fair, Labor and the Left used to act the same about Howard until Kevvie came along – but you see how far that got us.
As I said I don’t bother replying to vitriolic posts that play the man rather than the ball. It’s a waste of time.
Go and have a cry then
I’m crying just reading it.
So go tell the WA Govt. Julie. I think, even you may know, that WA is not a Territory.
I find it highly amusing that our friends who are sympathetic to the Green cause can be so vitriolic to ALP folk, but as soon as we return fire or challenge them they turn into blubbering wusses. At least Glen and the Libs are capable of defending their side with the vigour as us ALP types, but the Greens on the other hand….
Is that right? I reckon you are a master at them.
Scorpio @ 162 I did. And I’ve found the same thing. Nor is he the only one.
It’s the same phenomenon that bugs NewsLtd journos & eds – the superfast ability to point out errors (& substantiate the point) that comes from one’s handy computer ‘folders’, bookmarks and good & fast search-engine skills. After centuries of controlling info & blocking criticism (except from rival publications) and handy shock-jocks who could cut off what they didn’t want the public to hear, they’ve finally discovered that, if they try the same thing on open blogs/ boards, they’re put to rights very smartly!
Don’t you just love it!
Yawn.
I’m not quite sure Taibbi is on the money here, so to speak. The names Milken, Boesky and Kravis (none of whom were GS) surely deserve some credit.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/28816321/the_great_american_bubble_machine/print
I saw a great headline in The Onion
“Recession-Plagued Nation Demands New Bubble To Invest In”
You can make massive profits from short-term bubble trading!
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25726659-462,00.html
So another plank in Malcolm’s fabulous economic plan comes asunder.
What was Turnbull’s quote in Shannahan’s article again?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25726884-601,00.html
Oh, that’s right. If the electorate wants “good” economic management, then they “must” vote for Turnbull’s mob instead of the incompetent Labor mob who can only come up with things like this.
And lower interest rates and so far, only one quarter of negative growth and only a “small” increase in unemployment so far as well as the housing and commercial building sector holding up well and an enourmous infrastructure program starting to ramp up to further cushion the Australian economy.
Well, golly gee as Glen would say!
Or as Gomer Pyle would say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6_1Pw1xm9U
Bob1234 @ 164 wrote
Having nothing better to do on a truly filthy freezing day with howling wind that defies my industrial plugs, bowls over full garbage bins and is hard-pruning my trees in the wrong season, I decided to back-check your & scorpio’s comments.
His first, 89, contains no “play the man”, aka the logical fallacy ad hominem (poisoning the well)
Your response I’m sorry but i’m not going to reply to such venomous posts. in its use of “venomous” is just such an ad hominem – if you tried to be funny, the convention is to indicate that – an ’smilie’ wink, LOL, “just kidding”.
@164 you threw in another, claiming “posts that play the man rather than the ball” – which scoprio had NOT done – an added guilt by assertion, a Leninist technique, usually also a poisoning the well or tu quoque or “You, also” fallacy.
Why not join the army of bloggers with that site bookmarked.
The wise commentariat in Hartiganville seem to think that Malcolm will survive – because there is no one else.
In my view this is ballcocks. It reminds me of the “I am indispensable” defence often heard by middle managers facing the sack.
It is stating the bleedin’ obvious that Malcolm cannot win the next election, in fact he is one of the reasons why.
The 17 members staring at life without an electorate office will grab onto anyone who may save their skins.
ruawake @ 179
It won’t be long before “every man for himself” comes into play. Then the fun will start!
If Australians want to see the workplace rights of their children, and their children after, stripped from them, if they want their desecndants to suffer cuts to their wages and working conditions, they should vote for the Miserable Liberals.
Turnbull not only scored a breathtaking “own goal” with Ozgate, he will very likely get well and truly stuck in his own wedge on climate change.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/fatal-flaw-in-turnbulls-climate-compromise-20090701-d553.html?page=-1
Turnbull’s political inexperience and incompetence is breathtaking and once the divisions within the Party start to really start to emerge as we get closer to an election with the polls still looking diabolical for the Libs, then BK’s “every man for himself” scenario will certainly come into play and it certainly “will be fun”.
10 News had Kev in the outback holding a joey but the story was praising him for the record number of car sales last month.
The man can do no wRONg!
these details are from ABC
I like this bit about ute sales being up
link
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2616043.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/national/where-the-ruddy-hell-were-you-malcolm-20090701-d59f.html
Love it! A bit more of this sort of thing in the media and Malcolm might think that emigrating to Afghanistan might not be such a bad idea!
Scorpio @ 182
As we said last night, the US House passing the bill adds impetus to the emerging international recognition of the need for strong targets at the next meeting. Turnbull, Fielding and the other deniers could end up looking like absolute blithering dills.
Fielding’s disingenuous posturing is the most shameful of all. He knows the science is right, and should be treated with contempt and ridicule for all time for his actions over this.
I thought Turnbull was going to cave in anyway in August, but it’s pretty-well certain now, after Gordon Brown’s comments, more resolve from the EU expressed and the US consolidation. Let’s hope it causes him more misery, and the hard-core idiots in the LNP cross the floor in largish numbers.
Generally, there is still a problem with the US Senate though, and John Kerry fears that the US will be left with a domestic reduction policy passed in the Senate, but the vote will fall short of the extra numbers required for it to have international force in a treaty. Apparently the vote for a treaty has to be higher in the Senate to get passed compared with the Congress. Let’s hope Obama can win over the 67 votes in the Senate required for an international agreement, but it’s a big ask. I hadn’t realised the extra votes were required for Copenhagen purposes:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aMs9V_EUxE0Y
Don’t know where that leaves the US position for Copenhagen if it falls short of 67
Further to 186
Kerry thinks that if the Senate won’t vote for the international treaty on climate change, then:
Seems to me a much more powerful position would be to have the legislation passed by the Senate first.
Diogenes
That article about GS is horrifying. It does sound conspiracy theory-esque, but the sole fact that Lehmann Brothers was allowed to collapse while other firms were bailed out is enough to raise questions, surely…
My Sister-in-law is a corporate lawyer, worked as company secretary to a number of biggish firms, the people who run them sound despicable…Oh buggeration, the world is filled with nasty banker types. I think I’d prefer to remain ignorant of the nastiness.
JV, if the Libs hadn’t put pressure on Rudd to water down the Labor ETS Legislation in an attempt to get it through the Senate, and the original had of passed, then we would have been in a far better position to influence the US Senate which would lead in turn, to a far better International outcome in Copenhagen in December.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2616520.htm?section=justin
An extreme credit freeze would mean higher interest rates as borrowers and lenders competed for funds.
The commercial building sector is still facing a similar problem as Turnbull continues to reject the Rudd bank to guarantee those loans. Result if Turnbull and co continue along their destructive track will be less projects, more unemployment and lower returns.
Does the US of A have the equivalent of a DD?
Phillip Hudson in the SMH has a go at Labor regarding the indefensible abuses of the Travel Pass Scheme for ex Parliamentarians. Although he does mention Fred Chaney’s efforts which are bad enough, he fails to mention Howard’s $1m plus extraction of taxpayers money.
I, and I would think, most fair minded taxpayers, would not at all be unhappy to see perks and rorts such as this eliminated. These people are not “special”, requiring special privileges paid in perpetuity by long suffering taxpayers.
Come on Ruddy. Get rid of this nonsense once and for all!
http://www.smh.com.au/national/grounded-senator-landed-48000-worth-of-flights-in-six-months-20090702-d6jz.html
Interest rates will always be lower under a Labor Government!
ruawake @179 Short of a world-shattering something or other, the ALP will win the next election, probably increasing its numbers in both houses, so Turnbull will probably make a good sacrificial lamb if he stays on.
Given the Libs haven’t shown many signs that electoral reality has hit them yet, defeat in 09 or 10 or early 11 should make them face it; but by then, they’ll be in the Brave new World they’ve tried so hard to ignore: new economic regulation, climate change structures and systems, digital communications. If they have trouble getting their heads around those, what about these.
The global on-line ed revolution, already reality in remote-area rural school (replacing the old “schools of the air”) universities, training systems and some experimental schools, point the way to a different phase of the educational – every bit as dramatically different as the post-Reformation grammar schools, and the Napoleonic Era French-Prussian centralised curriculum, then compulsory primary, then secondary ed. Hello on-line global classroom.
On-line diagnostic and emergency medical structures, already pioneered in remote Oz areas over the last decade; on-line medical tests such as blood tests; as well as more involvement by nurses, parameds etc in work now performed by doctors, will show medicine’s future directions. Gene therapy and better treatment for cancers will do to many auto-immune diseases what immunisation and antibiotics did to millennia-old viral and biological illnesses. Hello genetic & on-line medicine.
They are the only areas in which I was involved before retirement. But I’m sure that, as IT conversion is now almost where our 1996 IT experts said it would be, the above are where ed & medicine are going. Strategic policy, planning and implementation should have been in place before the end on the 90s. These and others are areas in we should expect the Federal Opposition to be developing policy; but currently they’re a “policy-free zone”
By taking Libs back to the 50s, and ruthlessly removing anyone who disagreed with him (Amanda Vanstone’s words, not mine) Howard left them unprepared for a future already moving from “early adopter” to “mass adoption” stages in 1996.
I’ve seen no evidence that the Liberals even consider (or try to project) where the Global On-line Village is heading, much less what will be expected of the current national government and its alternative (aka Opposition), even less what policies they will need to go to the next election and the one after. Nor will these be the only national policy areas they’ll have to address; they’re just the ones I know enough about to write a post like this.
PS. Lots of interruptions. Hope it makes sense.
ruawake @ 190 wrote
WOW! Who will Rudd and Swannie sue? Adds new dimensions to responsible behaviour by politicians
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/03/2616520.htm?section=justin
SA Labor will keep this issue live (as they should) right up to the State election next year even if M. H-S gets rolled today. I wonder if Malcolm is taking note of what the effects of fake e-mails have had and are continuing to have, on the SA Libs!
You can bet your life Ruddy has!
Nobody.
He will, in QT
He really needs to work out how to be more subtle than this.
OzPol Tragic,
If the Libs had half a brain, they would have positioned themselves half a street ahead of Labor on these issues after their 2007 defeat and made it seem as though they were ahead of the curve and Rudd was struggling to keep up.
Instead they just sat back on their one remaining “better economic manager’ laurels, felt sorry for themselves, believed that the electorate had made a terrible mistake that they would regret and come cowering back to the Conservative fold once they realised that Rudd was n ot the person they perceived him as being etc.
Unfortunately, in each of these criteria, they are dead wrong anjd the MSM in trying so hard to reinforce this level of thinking, have done them and the country as a whole, “NO” favours whatsoever.
Australia at present, with all the challenges it currently faces, needs a competent Opposition, willing to be adventurous, to meet with the Government in shaping suitable solutions to meet these challenges and the MSM should be pushing this for all it is worth for this and future generations and would benefit itself from a general public that has some level of trust in its motives and judgement.
As it stands now, the Conservatives know that most of what the MSM is presenting is garbage to prop them up in their hour of need and the rest are so disillusioned they are not prepared to accept just about “anything” that the MSM are dishing up tp them, even if it is accurate and well founded.
Oz-gate etc fail the test as Paul Kelly likes to remind us, (Rudd fails this test, Rudd fails that test, how will Labor deal with this test) and the MSM are now in a position of having virtually “NO” credibility with the general public which it relies upon for its survival.
Its demise will be mostly all self inflicted and good riddance to bad rubbish.
Scorpio, the whole travel thing seems like a beat-up to me. $8.3m since 2001? Boohoo. Compared to serious wastes of money – like terrorist hotline fridge magnets – this is a drop in the ocean.
Fred Chaney is, IMHO, a bad target to choose in this regard. He wasn’t in any way arguing that his work is charitable (though it may be in some respects), but simply a public good. I’m a great believer in his work, so I’m happy to see the government spend some money to support it.
As much as I don’t want to see that revolting little slug Howard spending more of the Nation’s money in future, I also don’t want to cut off my nose to spite my face.
The problem the rabble have with the “debt and deficit” argument is that most people realise that debt is a necessary evil.
I need a car, get a car loan. I need a house, get a mortgage. I need a fridge etc. etc.
There are very few reasons why Govts. should run surpluses.
Well, I wouldn’t mind the travel funding if it was within certain parameters – for registered charities, local government organisations etc. But any travel for personal reasons, or involved in earning money (speaking tours!) should be off-limits. maybe the activity should be declared and approved before the travel is undertaken.
ltep, he should have stuck to Merchant Banking which he was at least passably good at.
Polyquats
The $8.3 million for ex MP’s Gold Card is for seven years. So lets set up an office to look into the money that is “wasted”.
Betcha it costs more than it saves.
polyquats, scrap the lot. All taxpayers contribute to this rort.
Unless the travel and expenses have “some” value at least to Australian taxpayers, then it is just a perk that is unjustifiable and should be confined to the dustbin of history.
Hear hear. No ex-politician should receive tax-payer funded travel.
The ABC having a shot at Rudd for “Grocery Watch” on the 7.30 Report.
Since Howard stacked the Board and Management, it has really gone overboard (especially its on-line offerings) in trying to be “balanced”! lol.
scropio – wouldn’t it be Stateline?
Criticising Grocery Watch is fair game. It was pointless from the beginning and, in the end, a huge waste of time, effort and money.
Mmmm. Red face time. This is a repeat on digital. Should be watching Stateline.
Ouch!
Yeah, I deserve that, Grog!
Perhaps someone can remind me.
Wasn’t there a period in early 2008 when Turnbull was opposition treasury spokesman and was making suggestions in the media which seemed to be pre-empting government announcements? What were those issues?
Should that be reviewed in the light of Grech’s recent behaviour?
It’s Time
Fuel Watch leaks.
RBA – Treasury correspondence
Were the main ones published.
No, there were some Government announcements that the Opposition preempted and ‘called on’ the government to take action on.
Then when the Government made the announcements the Opposition claimed that the Government had no ideas of their own.
Woops – sorry ’bout that.
There was also the time Turnbull predicited the stimulus package would be $5b…. but it came out at $10b. Guess Godwin wasn’t in the loop on that one:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/14/2390199.htm
btw love the opening par:
You mean this, it’s time?
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/10/26/1224955851153.html?page=2
Gee, I wonder who…. where’s Sherlock Holmes when you need him? Columbo? Scooby Doo?
There was a nice old COAG leak too.
http://www.treasurer.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=transcripts/2009/068.htm&pageID=004&min=wms&Year=&DocType=2
Prophetic, but most of this is unfortunately, “wrong”.
Turnbull will never be Prime Minister.
Instead of looking for marginal seats to win, the Libs are now looking at what seats they already hold that they can “save”.
He is not going to achieve his aims and it will be all the more difficult if he loses his constant drip feed of information on the Government from his moles and sources in various Government Departments.
The circumstances are very different between Scullin’s dealings with the Great Depression and how Rudd is handling the GFC.
The last paragraph is fairly correct though. Turnbull certainly does not play by the normal rules and conventions and has certainly shot himself in the foot and the rickoshey has bounced around the room and wounded many of his colleagues also.
Struth, this thing posted itself before I had finished editing it and adding the link.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/10/26/1224955851153.html
“ricochet” even!
Time story on Rudd – must be the International version rather than the Australian edition.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1908274-1,00.html
Sorpio, The most spot-on thing in the article:
Perhaps if he had that gene he might become PM. Oh well.
Here’s another instance where Turnbull threw up a red herring to get a bit of publicity.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24700862-36418,00.html
Grog, that Time article was quite good. I quite liked the finish.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1908274-1,00.html
I wish I was around by the original rise of Howard. (Heh, I made everyone look old). How exactly did a guy, surly part of the old guard, being the ex-treasurer, and associated with the then voted out govt survive the 10+ Hawke years in the wilderness, and being a badly beaten opposition leader etc, and Mr 11%, achieve to become our 2nd longest serving Prime Minister?
Relating to current events, I’m just saying it is possible (with Turnbull); you just went through the last living example of it. Most are saying he’s quit if he doesn’t get his way, but I’m thinking his ego could he big enough to an eventual comeback – He’s not going to quit; he simply can’t stand to be wrong, and to “prove” he was right…
Just happened to be in the right place between a recession and a decade long mining boom, Sertse.
I think after ‘93, 3 factors scuttled the keating dream.
1.keating himself
2.structural eco. reforms “burning’ some punters
3.Unlike hawke,keating was unmilling to bend to certain groups
unmilling of course should read “unwilling”
grrrrrrr Sales said “illegal boat people”. Why can’t these journos learn to say ‘refugees’.
or ‘asylum seekers’
Polyquat they need to prove it first
Sales is correct 
Glen, where have you been? To the footy?
William: With incumbent Jim Cox retiring, Michelle O’Byrne a sure bet for re-election, and Labor looking certain to win a second seat but very unlikely to pick up a third, the battle for the second seat is looking like a tussle between Hay, Beaconsfield mine disaster survivor Brant Webb, CFMEU forests division secretary Scott McLean (who famously came out in support of John Howard at the 2004 federal election) and Winnaleah school principal Brian Wightman, with only the latter looking an obvious also-ran.
Comment: Labor have some chance of picking up a third seat. At the risk of splitting hairs, I would say “unlikely” rather than “very unlikely”. Something like a 30% chance of getting three. They will get the third seat if the Greens’ Kim Booth misses. Booth just scraped in last time – it all depends how the pulp mill is running as a story come election day. Booth should hold, but …
Also to the list of potential Labor candidates who could trouble the high-profile Hay and Webb you should add Michelle Cripps, who stood on the ticket in 2006 and got a thousand-odd votes. If she has learned from that experience, she must have some hope. At the moment there are seven hopefuls, and one is likely to miss pre-selection:
Sitting members Michelle O’Byrne
Brant Webb
Kathryn Hay
Michelle Cripps
Scott McLean
Rob Soward
Brian Wightman
See http://www.examiner.com.au/news/local/news/politics/one-bass-nominee-too-many-for-labor/1557719.aspx
Grog @ 223, Scorpio @ 226, interesting date on that Time article – 13 July! Great article, thanks for the link.
Diogenes
A good quote. I think on this site we have seen a similar tranformation taking place. Since the Freo Bi-Election the ALPers have made the transition from laugh to fight in their anti-Greens hysteria. The next step is…
And what a surprise – the Greens make yet ANOTHER personal attack.
Buid a bloomin Bridge – your pathetic whinings each time the bad ALP”ers expose your little lies proves you can dish it out, but you CANNOT take it.
Pot Meet Kettle.
Frank
You always remind me of an incident where some drunk and mildly mentally disabled guy was talking to my brother. His replies had nothing to do with what my brother had just said and finally he just had to say “sorry man, I just don’t get you”. I don,t interpret my words as either an “attack” or “personal” and they certainly weren’t intended as such. I’d say they refer to a hope for the future – a prediction for the future of this country. Your responce does seem in line with my theory that hostility from the alp types here towards the greens has been on the rise. I could be wrong but my guess is that most bludgers of all persuasions would agree.
I beg of you this one request though? Can you please explain *in detail* the relevents of the pots kettle analogy to this discussion because right now with all due respect “sorry man, I just don’t get you”.
Ps I’m NOT saying you are drunk or mildly mentally disabled and I am not trying to make a personal attack – just that we do not appear to operate on the same wavelength ever and that I can rarely follow your train of thought as I have said on other occasions. Perhaps we have very different personalities.
I find the last two posts to be distasteful and unnecessary, to say the least.
As do I
I see no problem with 241 and 242 when read together.
wow a curry joke about an Indian person? Hilarious
Palin is to resign as Governor of Alaska.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090703/ap_on_re_us/us_palin_resigning
Steve,
Now watch out for Palin as a presenter on Faux News.
Big possibility BK, she could double as candidate and political commentator for Faux News with their ethics and her previous beauty queen role.
Steve,
And their dress code would require her to wear a short skirt.
Seriously, Faux News is just a dog whistler to the right wing rump in the us.
Unbelievable!
Credit Where Credit’s Due Dept.
Annabel Crabb writes a good one: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/lib-think-tank-running-on-empty-20090703-d7rk.html
More like this please, Annabel.
Steve Fielding has shown himself to be the village idiot of the Senate.
Look at his recent incompetent antics in the senate:
1) His decision to block referral to the privileges committee was only the second time in the Senate’s 108 years that this has happened.
2) His CC denials.
3) His willingness to potentially contaminate the Parliament with swine flu.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/lessons-from-ozcar-for-everyone-from-pm-to-senate-dunce-20090703-d7rg.html?page=-1
Yet he was elect to the Senate despite obtain just a couple of percent of prime votes. WHY? Because Labor preferenced him over the Greens.
Why is there such animosity between Labor and the Greens? (This has been on display in recent feuds on PB). I have always stated that there is a natural synergy between both. Labor will not always enjoy its present high standing in the polls. It will need Green preferences sometime in the future, just as it did in the 1990 election.
Just as the Liberals have not learnt the lessons of policy development since their 2007 defeat, so too Labor appears to ignore its natural synergies it may well need to maintain power into the future.
So a well intentioned dialogue needs to be opened up between Labor & the Greens.
Here on PB would be a good place to start.
Altho I can’t say that its well intentioned, there certainly is dialogue between different peoples , representing different political viewpoints, here on contentious issues.
At times there is a very frank and open discussion and perhaps because of the passion of those that post here, it does get a bit heated.
In the main, this seems to occur when an impasse is reached or the tone denigrates to personal attack.
But politics is about the hurly-burly and most certaintly not tip-toeing thru the tulips.
BTW
What, in your opinion, is the most pressing issue that the Labs and the Greens should be discussing.
“Why is there such animosity between Labor and the Greens?’ a not so simple mistake by labor it will not happen again, however payback for Fielding for stopping the senate inquiry will most likely be Lib preferences. now that is an even scarier thought
Re 252,
He repeatedly demonstrates this, this week wasn’t unusual in that regard
Juliem, what’s your reading of Palin’s latest announcement?
Don’t know if other WA posters made note of this yesterday, but the Friday edition of The West had an article by Andrew Probyn, Federal Political editor, titled “Rudd woos WA vote in poll dance”. Rudd was in Kununurra on Thursday (don’t know if his current trip to WA was a multi day trip or just TH). Anyways, to the point – Probyn points out the very real threat of a DD over the ETS legislation. Case #1 – if you accept the arguement that the Senate’s deferment of the ETS legislation was the first hurdle for a DD, if they vote against it again in the August sitting, GG under request could dissolve and have an early November election. Case #2 – Coalition votes it down in the August sitting, again at the end of the last sitting session for the year and then early election in March looms. Probyn presents both as viable possibilities but the latter being the more likely between the two.
Thoughts?
Annabel Crabb in the story referenced by BB at 251 did not mention that the conversation between Brandis Mason and the journalist Parris led to the introduction (by Parris) of the term dog whistling into the British political lexicon. http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/cartoons/13599/only-the-tories-can-cut-the-state-down-to-size.thtml
It is a lovely example of the propagation of a meme and I particularly like it as an example of Antipodean culture affecting the mother country.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/economy-beats-the-odds-20090703-d7um.html
This can be directly attributed to two towering genius of the two boys from Nambour.
The Superior Economic Manager will always be ALP under Labor
Possum or anyone as a newby how do I set up quoths from other bloggers if I wish to incluude them as a reference
Ta
vote1maxine @ 252
I think it’s a couple of steps worse than that. Village idiots can’t help being stupid.
But he knows the science is correct, and what he should be doing on climate change and everything else that the shady bible-bashing bastards behind him direct him on.
Being wilfully ignorant when you are in a position of that power is to piss on a heavy ethical obligation. So he’s just an unprincipled, dishonest, double-talking, empty shell mouthing the words of others. How does the creep live with himself?
Apologies to village idiots everywhere by the way. We should be using the modern term – ’synapse-challenged small town dweller’.
Palin looks like she quit to avoid further scandals coming out and being forced to resign in disgrace. She’s thrown in the towel.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/03/palin-hockey-arena-scandal/
Krugman looks at the jobless figures growing in the US and decides a bigger stimulus packages is needed ASAP. Otherwise the US will face a decade of deflation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/opinion/03krugman.html?em
Diogenes, echos of the Texas Ranges baseball field under Bush and co.
Excellent quote before Diogs. First they ignore, then they laugh, then they fight, then you win. What if they can’t laugh because it can be seen you are clearly too intelligent, and they can’t fight because you’d win legally, I suppose you go from; ignore – rejection – acceptance – win.
Anyway, Heyson Molotov did not make any personal attack. Get over it and lighten up you guys. For the record I like Green voters. I just happen to love their policies more.
Hmm …. wonder what is up here
….
Dio, you beat me to it
What a strange speech for a mid term Governor. All about lame ducks, no more politics as usual, children were polled and want her out. She loves her job and Alaska so much she’s leaving.
http://video.nytimes.com/video/playlist/politics/1194811622221/index.html#1194841338826
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25731562-5006301,00.html
Expectedly, Hamilton-Smith holds on to the SA Liberal leadership.
Bob good news for Labor supporters there, with Turnbull digging in and staying as a lame duck leader and Springborg leading the media hits over Langbroek, once Springborg rolls Langbroek we will be back to business as usual on the conservative side of Australian politics.
The vote was much closer than expected, 11 votes to 10, with one MP abstaining. The status quo, maintained by such a slim margin, is the worst possible result for the SA Liberals.
To be a little more fair to him you also have to lay the blame on the Opposition. His vote alone would be meaningless. Bob Brown was exactly right that the Senate should not be seen to be protecting one of its own. If there was no merit in the reference the committee could determine that itself and report accordingly.
To be fair to the ALP they issued their preferences in the way that they thought would get the ALP more senators. The ALP’s job is not to get Greens senators elected after all.
Bob, didn’t Hamilton-Smith initially get the job because the previous Liberal leader was interstate at a funeral when the spill occurred? He should be ok as leader as long as he has no intention of leaving the state for any reason between now and the next election.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25731562-5006301,00.html
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25731562-5006301,00.html
Bob, has he developed a travel bug since the vote this morning?
That post reminds me of the oft said “I’m not a Racist, but” tag. but you have made yet ANOTHER personal attack, and as a person with a disability, while I don’t take personal offence at your swipe at the mentally ill, your comments prove once and for all that the Greens take great delight at making personal attacks against ANYBODY who do not agree to your virtious views.
And if I had made a similar attack, I would’ve been snipped by William, and well deserved, but in yours and Oz’s case every attack of a similar nature remain untouched – rather like the endagered species the greens purport to protect.
So much for a Party who claim to protect the socially disadvantaged when they resort to attacking the peoiple they purport to protect.
Hypocrites.
253
In a future 1990 type election for the ALP, it may have to rely not only on Greens preferences but on Greens MHRs. In such a close election where the ALP was on the nose but not quite enough to get booted out, the Greens would be in a position to gain up to three seats (if they did not hold any of them already).
Here’s the story of the SA Liberal Leader being rolled while attending a funeral from Pavlov’s cat a local SA blogger.
http://pavlovblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/sa-libs-move-some-more-deck-chairs.html
276
I am sorry I’ve been reduced to a number
Ttfab.
What I meant in 253, was what issue is (eg ETS) the most pressing
the greens getting fed MHR’s in such a number to hold the BOP, is a possibility, but the probablility is debatable ie the timeline for it to actually happen.
Vote1Maxine says he/she wants a dialogue between Labor and Green and laments the feuding that goes on here between Labor and Green supporters. I agree in principle. But V1M then immediately drags up the Labor-preferenced-Fielding matter as a stick to hit Labor over the head with. As I’ve said here about 20 times, the current Senate election system forces all parties *including the Greens* to do preference deals. The deal with FF was the best way to maximise Labor’s chances of winning three Senate. The Democrats also did a deal with FF, for the same reason. If the deal had worked, everyone would have said how clever Eric Locke was, but thanks to Latham driving down the ALP primary vote, it didn’t work. These things happen in politics. I could compare this with the Qld Greens’ *deliberate* preferencing of the Nats in 1995 in order to help them win government, or the Green alliance with the Libs and Nats to prevent reform of the WA Leg Council, but in the interests of dialogue I’ll refrain from doing so. I for one would welcome a truce on this silly point-scoring (I can’t speak for fellow Labor hacks of course.)
More broadly, I think what really annoys Labor people, here and in the real world, is the Greens’ constant assertion that Labor governments are not really trying to deal with the incredibly complex and difficult issues surrounding environment, energy, water and climate change in Australia, and that the Greens could solve all these issues overnight. It’s very easy to be pure from the crossbenches, but Labor governments are dealing with these issues while trying not to put people out of work (the working-class people who vote for us in particular), send businesses broke or ruin our export industries, and all in the face of a hostile anti-Labor press. Government means responsibility for all these things, and it means constant difficult choices. It’s very easy to harvest votes through NIMBYism and opposition to everything governments do. Greens oppose the CPRS, nuclear power, desal plants, pipelines, windfarms – just about everything governments can or could do to deal with these problems, while dismissing all consequences for employment or investment, as “pandering to the big end of town.”
Secondly, war between Labor and Greens is inevitable if the Greens pursue a strategy of trying to win lower-house seats from Labor, federally and in the states. Of course as a political party the Greens are entitled to contest any seat they like, but if they insist on a strategy of trying to defeat Labor ministers (Tanner, Albanese, Plibersek; Pike, Wynne; Tebbutt, Firth), then we are going to fight back, and we will fight as rough as needs be. I point out that it’s not *necessary* for the Greens to pursue this strategy. Federally and in all states except Qld (and Tas, which has a different system), the Greens can win upper house seats, gaining a voice and influence by holding the balance of power, without threatening Labor’s electoral base and incurring the inevitable Labor counter-attack. The decision to “take on Labor” in seats like Marrickville and Melbourne is a decision to start a war with Labor, and the Greens can’t complain about the tactics which Labor then uses to defend itself – particularly since we see no comparable effort to take on the Liberals in their seats.
I hope V1M finds these comments, which are intended to be constructive, helpful.
They do it where they see the opportunity to. Mayo is one example.
I really thought the phrase had died out decades ago but listening to Bob Brown speak it appears not to have.
Why wouldn’t this have occurred before this morning’s vote?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/04/2616784.htm?section=justin
If he got 14 of the 22 votes as was speculated then he would have been ok. But he should have stepped down before it anyway as he’d lead the Libs to disaster. With 11 of 22 votes, he’s pretty much lost the party’s confidence. Especially if the person you only got 11 of 22 votes against was Vickie Chapman of all people. God she’s dumb.
Recommended reading Andrew Elder’s latest blog “Night Thoughts from John Hartigan”- great l’explication de texte.
http://andrewelder.blogspot.com
I thought that what political leaders did in a spill was phone everyone on their team asking for support and count the votes before it turned into a public embarrassment. What is the preferred SA method, it is obviously different and not as effective as eldewhere? The good thing is that with 21 members they can’t have a four all draw and go for a lucky dip as was the Queensland Liberals favorite trick.
Oops 22, I forgot the one hiding in the toilet.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/03/sarah-palin-out-of-politi_n_225619.html
It looks like Palin is quitting politics tout court, not as a preliminary to running for the Senate or for POTUS. I think this shows unexpected good sense. She is clearly out of her depth, and she has family problems.
The OO are still trying to get Rudd over the ute, talk about sore losers.
They also report that Malcolm saying
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25730651-2702,00.html
Vera, last time I checked the ute was declared on the register at the bottom of this page. It seems that News Ltd wants to run the line that the Howard Govt standards of accountability were superior. Good luck with that one, News Ltd.
http://www.openaustralia.org/mp/kevin_rudd/griffith
The registration, insurance and RACQ membership are also listed so what is their problem?
Steve, they hate being made fools of I guess
The head of the Repugs Governors’ Association Nick Ayers was sent emails by Palin before her announcement. Bloggers are to blame for the resigantion of a political leader – is this a first?”
Who else can we bloggers bring down from our newfound position of strength? We must use this new power responsibly of course!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/03/gop-official-who-talked-w_n_225582.html
(link courtesy ChrisB at 101)
Must be the superior research skills that makes Harto want us to pay for that blogs can dig up for free, I guess. After all the General Public couldn’t just click on Open Australia and get every Member and Senator’s declaration of Pecuniary Interests themselves could they?
279
The Greens are not targeting these seats because they have ministers in them but because they are the ones that the Greens can win. If the ALP does not want ministers targeted then they should move the ministers but instead they are making members for these seats new ministers. If the Libs had a major minister in say Eden-Monaro the ALP would still target that minister.
The lower houses are more powerful than the upper houses. On money bills there are restrictions in the Commonwealth and most states and in Victoria and NSW the Legislative Council can`t block any money bills (despite the Legislative Council being the more representative house in Victoria). Lower Houses also determine governments.
I suppose Hartigan’s reply to this would be that, yes, Joe Public could look up pecuniary interests for himself, but that eh didn’t do so.
But then, neither did News journalists.
Besides that, the donation was innocent, recorded properly and no benefit to Grant was gained by Grant’s making it.
So where’s the problem?
Same with the email. Except it was a fake email. So what’s the point of writing about it?
Ditto for the Schools bootstrapper: apart from the usual few stuffups you’d expect to find with a multi-billion dollar program, News’ famous journalistic team couldn’t dredge up anything much, even after their plaintive, daily cries for tip-offs from the public. Most of the articles were either quoting themselves or close colleagues (either specifically or in the form of words: “newspaper reports say…”), or Liberals, plus a few disaffected principals and P&C tragics. Well, that lot would say that, wouldn’t they? Hardly the stuff of huge controversy.
Gotta love the MSM- poll on yahoo7- can turnbull win back voters?- huh? did he have them in the first place?? I dont think so
And Sarah Palin, PLLLLLEASE go for president!!!!
I suppose Hartigan’s reply to this would be that, yes, Joe Public could look up pecuniary interests for himself, but that eh didn’t do so.
But then, neither did News journalists.
Besides that, the donation was innocent, recorded properly and no benefit to Grant was gained by Grant’s making it.
So where’s the problem?
Same with the email. Except it was a fake email. So what’s the point of writing about it?
Ditto for the Schools bootstrapper: apart from the usual few anomalies you’d expect to find with a multi-billion dollar program, News’ famous journalistic team couldn’t dredge up anything much, even after their plaintive, daily cries for tip-offs from the public. Most of the articles were either quoting themselves or close colleagues (either specifically or in the form of words: “newspaper reports say…”), or Liberals, plus a few disaffected principals and P&C tragics. Well, that lot would say that, wouldn’t they? The bulk of the “disasters” arose from barneys at the local level about what was the most appropriate priority for the particular school. Hardly the stuff of huge controversy.
I am sick of trying to second-guess the Crikey “Moderation filter”. Is “stuffup” a naughty word? I took it out and still copped the dreaded message.
I wonder if the conservative side of politics in the US is also trying the Silver Bullet/Great White Hope approach that has been so successful in conservative Australian politics recently…?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8133964.stm
Oh dear,
Looks like I’m a day late and a dollar short with regards to my previous posts. My apologies.
What next? Greens demanding “we’ll say who Labor can run against us and make ministers of this country” lol
It’s this attitude that has turned this hack right off the Greens.
299
The Greens will target those seats whether or not they have ministers in them. The ALP does not have many ministers from seats they hold that are marginal to the Libs do they? Kim Beazley moved from Swan to Brand in 1996. No party is going to not target a seat of another party who they are not in coalition with just because there is a minister in that seat.
Tom, as I said, the Greens have a perfect right to run wherever they like. My point was a response to Vote1Maxine’s argument that Labor and Greens should be natural allies. It’s difficult to forge an alliance with a party which is trying to unseat party leaders like Tanner, Albanese and Tebbutt, and forcing us to divert resources which we would much rather spend on defeating the Libs.
In Germany the SPD and the Greens can form an alliance because their electoral system doesn’t force them into conflict. In France, which also has single-member seats, the terms of the PS-Green alliance allocate a certain number of seats to the Greens, where they are essentially elected by PS voters. This is fairly easy in a house of 577 – it would be a lot harder in the House of Reps, but not impossible. But the current Greens leadership don’t want an alliance with Labor – they want to displace Labor as the main party of the left.
300
I’m happy for the Greens to run in every seat but it’s a bit rich to bitch about Labor having strong cantidates or ministers in marginal seats the Greens think they can win.
If you are so sure of winning these marginals good luck to you, stand up and fight for them but don’t expect labor to run crap cantidates to make it easier for you.
They already have. The ‘party of the left’ hidden somewhere within the ALP is perennially sidelined by the policies of the dominant right-wing faction.
Psephos @ 279
Your comments are both constructive & helpful. My intention in relation the election of Fielding was not “a stick to hit Labor over the head with”. Simply the frustration of Labor’s CPRS Bill being held up in the senate by a “synapse-challenged small town dweller”, (ie moron) who shouldn’t be there in the first place.
I believe that Labor’s present CPRS Bill (though weak) should be passed by the Greens. A start needs to be made IMMEDIATELY. The Greens can tighten the legislation later. (At worse case the Greens should abstain rather than oppose the Bill).
In relation to preference deals, it should work both ways. I understand that a party needs to maximise its senate numbers but more consideration should be given to the consequences of electing a moron ala fielding. (Likewise the Greens shouldn’t pref Nats over Labor). To be fair it would be very difficult to foresee these consequences. That is why I am advocating that the natural synergy between Labor & the Greens needs to be nurtured. Both sides need to do so. This, I believe, would minimize these unforeseen consequences.
Gusface @ 253
The most important issue is for the Greens & Labors to work together to get the CPRS Bill through the Senate. Something is better than nothing. The Bill can always be strengthened later. CC is the big stick to beat the COALition over the head with which a Labor Govt. can take to the 2016 election and win comfortably.
The field of candidates for Higgins is thinning out.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/costello-to-endorse-liberal-activist-as-higgins-candidate-20090704-d80k.html
JV, it depends on the defintion of “left.” The Greens have replaced the communists as the party of the *far left*. You still have a long way to go replace the ALP as the party of the “broad left” – Labor polled five times the Green vote in 2007.
Go Dees! Five goals in a row.
Just what the Libs need, another banker.
301
The ALP can always more the ministers if it wants them to not have to pay so much attention to their own re-election.
302
I am not saying that the ALP should run weak candidates but that they cannot complain if they have important targeted if they don`t move them.
I haven’t heard Tanner & co complaining about who runs against them?
They’d be laughed outa town if they did.
“Banker”? Is that the correct spelling?
The dinosaurs at News Ltd reckon people are going to pay for their content on the net, the way they do for Pay TV. They are delusional! The huge difference between pay TV and the net is that most information is not freely accessable on Pay TV as it is on the net.
Also, not anybody can go ahead and operate their own TV station, whereas almost anybody can create their own website, and be in a position to compete for lucrative advertising dollars.
Buying a newspaper will no longer be necessary as information from every industry and sector of the economy and from experts in their various fields will be freely accessable on the net. As the dinosaurs at News Ltd know, the days of relying on newspapers for information are coming to an end.
309&310
Gonwyn Pike said in an interview after the 2006 election that she was disappointed that the Greens had targeted seats where progressive politics had been so strong for so long (may not have the wording quite correct but I have the sentiment correct).
What if Murdoch started buying up websites, even ISPs? Might that not give him the ability to up prices and charge for content?
I know there are probably a thousand reasons why he can’t do it, but if someone had asked whether a younger Rupert, resident of Adelaide, owning one newspaper, would today be one of the world’s richest men, own hundreds of newspapers, run pay TV stations, be an American citizen, be included on Time’s “most influential” list etc. etc. you’d have been laughed off the blog (except blogs didn’t exist then, of course, much less business models for on-line content).
Just askin’…
Just a couple of other things before I go to walk the dogs (great that I can write the word here and not have to spell it out under my breath…. WALK!):
1. One of the worst things about News blogs is that moderate. It can take hours for your post to appear, by which time the argument has moved on. No “live blogging” on Harto’s sites.
2. What if he made Crikey an offer they couldn’t refuse? He’s done this kind of thing before. That could well effectively shut down this blog.
Paying for newspaper content on the net would be like paying for an extra channel on pay TV that show replays of broadcasts that have been shown on free to air.
Psephos
Not me, I’m not any part of the Greens, or harboring ideas of replacing anybody, but I would suggest that the term ‘left’ as it is generally understood historically can hardly be applied to the current ALP. Centre-unity has control and has shouldered the party into the centre-right territory once occupied by the Liberal party up to and including Fraser. The ALP is the ‘Once Were Left’ party, to borrow the title of that great Kiwi movie. Although I do concede that residual elements of leftish types with more progressive ideologies still exist in the party, but their contributions are always swamped by the right’s numbers.
This is fairly easy in a house of 577 – it would be a lot harder in the House of Reps, but not impossible. But the current Greens leadership don’t want an alliance with Labor – they want to displace Labor as the main party of the left.
Displace Labor as the main party of the broad left? Hardly. If the Greens were after that, their policies would be markedly different, and much more centrist.
Labor just want to keep being able to totally ignore the left, and toss a tiny concession here and there to the reps in the upper house, like they do with the Shooters Party. I understand why Labor might be obsessed with caution to the point of it being ridiculous (hello? Rudd makes Obama look like a lefty?), but they shouldn’t be stunned when the left *stops voting for them* as a result.
318 last paragraph
Here Here
Psephos said,
Not only that, but a Lawyer to boot. One would think that the Liberal Party had enough Lawyers in their ranks and would be looking to broaden their ranks to more closely reflect the general community and its concerns?
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/costello-to-endorse-liberal-activist-as-higgins-candidate-20090704-d80k.html
Would that be the same Freehills as the one that drafted the Workchoices legislation?
“Left” is a relative term. It means “to the left of whatever point is defined as the centre at any given time.” It doesn’t mean “in accordance with the doctrines of Karl Marx / Kier Hardie / Ben Chifley.” Sixty years ago Labor stood for White Australia and nationalising the banks. So have we moved to the “left” or the “right” since then?
Invalid comparison. You know full well there’s no left-right scale that defines all policy. You have a left-right scale for economic, social, and moral/traditional issues.
322
The current Labor party is at about the centre line of Australian politics and there are many people in Australia who want more left wing policies than the ALP is offering. Labor has drifted to the right on economic issues in the last four decades or so (the Labor party of sixty years ago supported public ownership of assets and a Brittish NHS style health system). On social issue the ALP became more progressive in the second half of the sixties as did society but has drifted more socially conservative, particularly in the last decade.
No wonder the Libs have been blocking Labor’s Bill on Political Donations, especially “foreign donations”.
When it comes to vested interest, the Liberal Party have no peers in relation to hypocrisy!
[Dr Chau told the Herald he was just a "small businessman" who was fulfilling the role of a "good and responsible citizen". "When I make those donations, I do not put any conditions on the contribution."
The former prime minister John Howard told the Herald: "I had a very positive view of his contribution to the relationship [with China].
“He always struck me as a person interested in a genuine way in building relations between China and Australia. I never discussed donations with him … the access he had was not so frequent as to even justify that question.”]
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/chinese-billionaire-funding-our-mps-20090703-d7s9.html
Just love Howard’s comment which, when you relate it to the rabid attacks on Rudd over non existent favours for a mate and the amounts of money involved, leave me absolutely speechless!
Bingo.
What are these policies?
Obviously not a majority.
* i subscribe to pay TV for the live sports, news and current affairs, documentaries, World Movies and the music channels. Hardly touch the others.
* i subscribe to Crikey because i believe it should be supported.
* As far as MSM, they have lost “gatekeeper” role in term of publishing as well as deciding what they will let us see and read, and the circumstances where we are allowed. they dont like it at all that this gatekeeper role has been smashed by the new media. i will never subscribe them.
* i agree with BB about “moderated sites” where your posts can take forever to appear. The attraction of PB is that it is not moderated, except for the occasional Herr Wilhelm’s quirky sin bins.
* free to air, only watch ABC, SBS and cricket on 9.
* other than that, life is pretty good, no complaints at all.
Ta Vote1,
I am actually sympathetic to some of the greens causes, but as I stated recently, the stand on the CPRS is really stupid for so many reasons;
damages labor -green relations
perceptions by laborites that the greens are extremist
allows the libs elbow room to be part of the deal
stops any discussion on further developing the CPRS
ignores sections of the greens that may want a CPRS
least of all, we ARE still not doing anything substantive and have less weight vis a vis international targets.
Psephos
Neither. We have progressed recently on things such as immigration; capital punishment; women having greater equality; indigenes having the vote. But these things aren’t a ‘move to the left’, they are the result of better education and communication. It is a trap when doing this exercise to equate ‘movement to the left’ with ‘acting in accordance with better knowledge and understanding’.
We have regressed recently on: freedom of speech and association; and more draconian approach to law and order generally (apart from capital punishment); less tolerance of refugees; fewer rights and powers for workers; extreme powers given to security organisations.
Through all that the masses haven’t have moved either ’left’ or ‘right’. The same prejudices exist as always.
It is the two major parties that have moved to the right over recent decades, leading less on the basis of the better understanding and insight of the more educated, and catering more to the everlasting prejudices of the mass of people – a rich vein of votes.
Wow, parties giving people what they want. The mongrels.
Given that over 85% of voters gave their first preference vote to Labor or the Coalition in the HoR I guess there is not much pressure to move to “the left”. ?
Even the village idiot gets to vote – or should voting be weighted by education?
That other irrelevent 15% sit in the shadows feeling proud of all their grand ideas chucking rocks at the big 2. Sad ain’t it
Labor has opposed Capital punishment for a long time. They abolished in in QLD in 1922 and Lang tried in NSW too. Few executions took place under Labor governments.
It must follow logically from that that there are also many people who want more *right* wing policies.
And may I also say: go Jimmy Stynes and GO DEES.
There’s a bit of Steve Fielding in that comment Gary. You know that the concept of ‘giving people what they want’ is heavily qualified when it comes to government.
You don’t really believe that a group of voters ‘wanting’ something – whether a majority or not – should be sufficient itself for political parties to support it. If you do, you have been subverted by the focus group/polling sacred cow of the majors. If that were the approach we would never have been rid of capital punishment, we wouldn’t have taxation, secular public schools, the legal system, seat-belts, or any number of other things for the public good.
The move to the right recently across the two big parties has been associated with the tapping of base racial prejudice and xenophobia in our society. It was shamelessly played by Howard, and it has affected the policies of the current government.
As I’ve said many times before good government is about leadership – of convincing sufficient numbers of voters of what is right – not pandering to what they want as exemplified by talk-back radio. Polling is a natural enemy of leadership in that context.
340
They vote for the coalition and when the coalition (and independents and right wing minor parties) are in power they get some more right wing policies.
ruawake
You know the answer. Good government is leadership based on the best information – which is certainly not the polls. Example – emissions reduction. The government knows that the science is right, and the strategy for the action required must be taken if the planet is to be saved. So the critical role of government now is to explain the urgency of the situation to the people, regardless of what polls say about people not wanting to change jobs, or pay more for electricity; and then to take the action.
The government that wishes to pander to the village idiot vote does nothing on climate change, because the polls say people don’t like change.
jv
I think you will find the Govt. has introduced the CPRS bill.
I believe if the majority of voters “want something” political parties need to take notice of it and where possible support it. That is what our political system is all about. You seem to think it is about teaching us all what is “right and wrong” and implementing this “right” whether we like it or not. Why have representative government if that is the role of government? Why vote for anyone?
344
It is too weak because the government are too timid to stand up to fossil fuel lobby, the opposition and others who powerful and in the way of what is needed.
ruawake
Yes, of course. I’m not critical of the government for that. What choice was there? I was giving an example of how government should operate generally.
But there are signs of followship rather than leadership on the emisisons scheme in putting off action here until after the next election; the excessive permits to the coal industry; and putting up targets that are too low. All sops to the polls about the fear of change. There hasn’t yet been enough of a sense of urgency engendered by the government, aimed at garnering voter support for the required realignment of industry and employment. I am hoping that will come after Copenhagen.
One thing is for sure on this now they way things are shaping up is that if Turnbull doesn’t support the bill he will be left in the wilderness after Copenhagen in what I anticipate will be support for strongish targets aimed at no more than a 2 degrees C rise.
345
No one is saying that all decisions should be taken without reference to public opinion but that on some things governments have to make unpopular decisions. Governments are elected to govern. This involves taking decisions in the best interests of their jurisdiction which do sometime conflict with public opinion. Governments that mess up badly usually get booted*.
* Sometimes hampered by undemocratic parts of electoral systems like in the Commonwealth elections of 1961, 1969, 1990 and 1998.
Sorry, JV, but that is a totally ridiculous statement.
The polls from mid 2006 right through to the 24th of November told me that; 1. people do seek change. 2. they are willing to express that through the polling. 3. That they are equally willing to express that intention through the ballot box in an election!
Just because Howard won three elections on the trot after rolling Keating in 1996 (which was the people expressing a desire for change, also in polls leading up to that) doesn’t mean that the electorate didn’t want change.
Each election and the polling leading up to it has to be looked at on their respective merits. There are never or rarely, the same issues of concern or canvassed in each electoral cycle.
It may pay to reconsider that statement because I don’t agree with it whatsoever!
349
In 1998 the majority of the electorate voted for change but the single member electoral system hid this and returned Howard.
Gary
You’ve said it yourself -
“Where possible” – and it isn’t possible if the majority view is not for the public good overall. For example, taxation, or climate change.
When I vote for a representative I want them to make intelligent decisions based on the best information – in the case of climate change, the best science and economic models arising from the scientific necessity.
I do not want them to make decisions based on a majority view opposing change, or against higher electricity charges. That would not be to the common good. For their own survival interests, they should explain, explain, and explain like mad, to change the majority view if necessary.
That’s ok if you have bi partisan support but when you don’t and there is an opportunistic opposition and a MSM just waiting for such a time to arise to kick shite out of you then that option becomes very problematical. That’s reality in the raw.
scorpio
I think you got the wrong end of my stick. Definitional problem. I’m talking about voters not wanting higher prices for electricity or a forced change of occupation, such as will be required for the CPRS.
We always like the sort of change that suits our aspirations and enhances our lifestyle.
OI guess the government’s job is to convince voters that their longer term aspirations are best served by the changes necessary to accommodate the scheme.
Err, most people support taxation. They recognise the need. It’s the degree of taxation that is the sticking point. Same with climate change.
The Government can garner 85% voter support for its ETS Bill and it will be absolutely “NO” benefit to it or the passage of the existing Bill or as the Greens want, an improved, strengthened Bill if the Coalition and the Independents vote against it in the Senate. If the Greens join the Coalition block it is even worse and even if thye Greens vote with the Government, the Bill still “won’t” pass.
Voters can jump up and, scream, and protest in droves in the streets and it will not make one scrap of difference to the outcome.
Politics is about the possible. The Government is trying to do what is possible, under extreme opposition from the Coalition, Greens and Independents.
You need to come up with a workable solution, not expecting, that wishful thinking or an active, concerned electorate can change the reality! Even the fact that Labor won the last election is not enough to get that Bill through.
It may not even be enough if they win the next one, but it will be “totally” impossible if the Coalition were to win the next election!
That’s milksop politics.
There even comes a time every once in a while on a big issue that arises quickly when a government should go out on a limb hoping it can convince the public and the opposition that what it is doing is right before the next election.
It’s a balancing act, but the emphasis on the big issues must be what is the best path in the interests of society overall – not what is the best path back to office and the white cars. Your view suits the latter approach morethan the former. And please don’t say “You’ve first got to be in power to make a difference.” If you are going to make decisions based on the path of least resistance then you won’t make a difference anyway. Better to risk going down in flaming glory on issues that are worth it.
And Law and Order issues is a Prime example. WA Labor is opposed to Mandatory Dentention for people who assault Police Officers, but in order to avoid the predictable “Soft on Crime” tag, had no choice but to allow it to pass the lower House. However in the Upper House Labor is seeking to amend the legislation to exempt Juveniles, which also requires the support of the Greens and 3 out of the 4 Nationals, who I bel;ieve have concerns as well.
Yes, but ask them if they want to pay less tax, or pay more for electricity. A couple of great openings for a populist politician there
You mean like Jo Valentine ?
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=152873
I agree, that is why I support abolishing the Senate.
Yeah, we saw how well that worked out for Howard with workchoices. Over $200m spent and a lot of political capital and what happened?
His Government was soundly defeated and he lost his own seat into the bargain.
We, I repeat, we are not in an election campaign with a political party pushing hard to convince the electorate that the country needs an ETS.
Instead, we have a Government, half way through its first term, having introduced an ETS Bill into the Parliament, having it passed and now trying valiantly to get it through the Senate but being obstructed by all other parties.
The Government can bellow out till their blue in the face and this Bill won’t pass through the Senate unless the Coalition back down and support it.
The voters have already spoken. It is the Coalition, the Greens and the Independents that have not listened.
Frank
The law and order auction that just goes on and on is a prime exampe of the failure of leadership of the two big poll-driven parties. It was time to say “Enough!” years ago on the mandatory matrixes of meaningless statospheric sentences. The politicians have access to the best advice on what works with offenders, which is emphatically not ‘lock ‘em up and throw away the key’, but in full knowledge of this they adopt a ‘Steve Fielding’ position -wilfull ignorance – to pander to the ill-informed fearful elements in society who don’t realise that such policies make them much less safe.
It’s a collective failure of ethical standards by the big parties’ members across Australia that makes the UK pollies abuse of allowances look reasonable.
JV @341
Exactly! I and my other half have been life long labor voters but have become progressively more disenchanted with the 2 main political parties.
In the circles that we move in there are a growing number of people who are interested in Greens Party policies and would like to support them. However when it comes down to the crunch at election time they put the Greens second because of a lack of understanding about the voting system.
Take my word for it when I say that we and our friends do not fit the stereotype which is perpetuated ad nauseum here and in the MSM. J
It must follow logically from that that there are also many people who want more *right* wing policies.
And uh, what exactly happened to the idea of Labor as a party that stood for anything besides populism?
Oops. The ‘J’ was supposed to be a smiley face
JV, they did that before the last election. The ball is in the court of the Senate now, not the court of public opinion.
I have kept well and truly out of this argument (which has raged for an endless number of posts) up till now.
I think it is high time some people here critical of the Governments ETS and its inability to get it through the Senate, to take a good look at themselves and get a grip on reality. This is the “real” world we are dealing with here, not some fantasy land where all wishes come true.
This is one major reason why I support the Greens. If Labor is committed to acting entirely out of electoral self-interest, then we need to make it in their self-interest to enact progressive policies once in a while. I have no strong objection to seeing Green MPs tip a Labor government out of office to make this point.
And the last time Federal Labor did this they were relegated to Opposition for 13 years.
Sometimes I wonder if the Greens and their supporters are Closet Liberals.
Scorpio
Bad example – Workchoices failed the ‘for the common good’ test. Can’t sell that.
You can however sell policies that resonate with the voter like, say, avoiding the inundation of large parts of current population centres, or famine. If the government gets out after Copenghagen with the sort of effort put into the HIV campaign and Workchoices people will go with slightly higher energy prioces because by then there will be bi-partisan support, and the likes of Fielding will be in an irrelevant icon of idiocy. (Or more so)
Thereby installing a Coalition government by default? That’s taking cutting off one’s nose to spite their face to a new low.
Can any Green leaning polly bludger tell me what Labor policies they disagree with, apart from the CPRS?
Just askin’.
The Greens have less hope of winning a HoR seat than the Democrats. Get real 7.79% is not going to tip any Govt. out of office.
Labor have already convinced the electorate. They voted them into office. The Opposition had a similar policy leading into the election and now they are prepared to vote against it! Labor already has gone out on a limb by watering down their Bill to make it more acceptable to the Libs and they still won’t support it.
What more can they do? If they move even more away from the current position, then the Greens, who don’t support the current Bill, will be even less likely to support it.
That can only happen at the “next” election and I don’t think the nearly 4m people who voted for Labor at the last election would be very happy to see that, given all the problems facing us at the moment and which are being dealt with fairly well by the present Government.
There will be “NO” ETS if Labor crash and burn because the Coalition “will not” introduce one and even if they did, it would be so week as to be non-existent.
Ruawake @ 371
Offshore processing of refugees, the retention of the ABCC in another form, level of funding to private schools
scorpio
Just spent 5 minutes in the room of mirrors having good look at myself and emerge unreconstructed ?
I don’t really disagree with you about the current situation in the Senate anyway. Despite the shortcomings of the proposed scheme, it’s the best we’re going to get before Copenhagen, and I support its passage even if not strengthened. I do believe however, that the opposition will be forced to support it (or most of the rabble anyway – some will cross the floor).
World support for strong-ish targets at Copenhagen is growing too strongly for them to resist in the end. There is too much risk of them becoming pariahs now; the mood is shifting. So better to confront the divisions within the party now. I look forward to the August parliamentary session and the Senate vote. Should be the first big deal opportunity to watch live while we blog since ute-gate, I would say. The LNP will display more contortions than a circus.
THe Greens think the World is like Disneyland and they must keep singing this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yy-IcfOafI
That’s the last word from me on this subject and I will not be bothering to read any further posts on it because the debate is at such a low level as to belittle the intelligence of anyone who continues to push stupid lines and people like myself who respond, totally unsuccessfully to them!
Over and out!
sorry you’re disappointed scorpio. Will try to do better
And that’s Alice in Wonderland thinking. Commit political hari kari for the good of the cause and let those who totally opposed to your cause get in power and destroy everything you believe in. Good plan that.
Time to get back to reality.
It was 5,388,184 just for the sake of accuracy.
Does anyone know anything about Google Earth? Suddenly the maps are covered with hotel and restaurant symbols which won’t turn off.
Exactly and Turnbull is all that and more.
Gary – The aim isn’t to commit political suicide. It is to provide the sort of leadership that takes the people with you on the big decisions of common benefit. It shouldn’t be too much to ask. If they do that, then there is no loss of office.
Convincing enough voters should be achievable on the CPRS for example. I know a mojority support it in principle but the difficulty is with direct impacts on individuals.
Copenhagen should provide a good springboard (not borg) for some large scale education and advertising to convince people it’s worth some jobs changing and enegy prices getting a little higher. It is a pretty easy advertising job really. Just precis “The Day After Tomorrow” in 60 seconds. Give out fridge-magnet speaking dolls of Al Gore. That kind of thing
The Greens doln’t believe in Reality one iota, and they criticised me for using the term Political Har Kari as well – they must be a very maschoistic lot to continue to promise the iunachievable just because it makes you feel good inside, when the reality is that the AVERAGE Voter would punish you 100 fold if you even tried to implement them.
It seems they haven’t learnt from Meg Lees and the Democrats one little bit.
382 “mojority” = most people still in possession of their mojo.
Meanwhile in EVERY marginal electorate with a Carbon based industry the Opposition, bankrolled by Industry will be advertising the EXACT opposite emphasising Job Losses, closure of Towns etc, resulting in a victory to the LIbs/Nats.
Which would you rather prefer ?
#367 – Obviously you dont really know your enemy.
The Greens will never be the Govt, so you will never be able to enact any of your progressive policies on your own right. The only chance you got to enact your progressive policies is to work with either of the major parties, Labor or Liberals/National.
you should study Sun Tzu, so you know who your enemy is.
Y’know, when I see these eye-glazing Greens v. Lefties arguments, going on for sometimes hundreds of posts – with all the usual suspects participating, name calling and shouting at each other – I really do despair.
Greens: Labor won. Work with them.
Labor: You need the Greens’ votes in the Senate. Be nice to them.
Anybody else: The Revolution died 20 years ago. Get over it.
Adam
Under “Layers” do you have places of interest selected?
The continuation of the human race.
I think the day is coming Frank when you might have to step out of the virtual tally room and read a science journal or two.
BB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36xBQI0K-Kc
How would EU & USA react if the Iranians invade the British Embassy and take the diplomats as hostages as in 1979.
And no Science Journel will save you from the MOTHER of all Scare Campaigns resulting in the election of a Conservative Government who will implent NO ETS of ANY Description.
In response to ruawake at #371
Industrial Relations eg workNOchoices.
Unionism.
Water management with particular reference to the Murray.
Gay and Lesbian rights ie gay mariage,
Women’s issues eg single mothers and welfare, domestic violence, child sexual abuse, family law reform [but please note I do not confine just thes issues as being relevant to women].
Public education.
Public hospitals.
Unsustainable primary production.
Solinization of soils, soil erosion declining agricultural efficiencies.
The environment in general.
Indigenous affairs in general, the NT invasion in particular.
Regressive taxation.
Public versus private transport.
I think the ALP is doing little or less than they could or should in each of the categories above. Could. Should.
The little that they do is better than the nothing, or worse, that the COALition did and still has as spoken or tacit policy.
The Greens have better policy in each of the above categories, although stronger in some and weaker in others eg women’s issues.
In some areas the ALP has done very well.
Eg response to the GFC, infrastructure building in particular, some flaws but quite a brilliant strategy overall, National Broadband Network proposals and probably a couple I can’t think of off the top of my head.
As an active Labor supporter all my adult life I reserve the right to praise when appropriate and criticise when appropriate, to encourage what I see as good and to speak out against that which is not good or could be better notwithstanding the old and tired excuse of how difficult it is to do better. The search for a justification to fail.
I have an understanding, whether you agree or not, of the need for pragmatism and short/long term goals. I will complain when I think the ALP is short sheeting its supporters and using ‘pragmatism’ etc as an excuse for a failure of principle and political leadership.
I do not wish to be a ‘my party right or wrong’ non critical supporter but one who is prepared to stand up for policy that is right and just and not kowtow to factionalism in any of its forms.
Political leadership is a very difficult balancing act because one is in danger of being voted out if, in pursuit of what you think is right, you go too far ahead of the majority of the people. It is a matter of very difficult judgement as to how much political capital you should burn on which issues. I think Kevin has been a bit cautious in general, as have most of the State Labor governments, but their cautious reform is generally better than conservative reform in the other direction. But sometimes State labor have been so cautious for fear of frightening the horses, that although they manage to eke out 10 years or so in power, they end up with almost no reform. NSW would be an example here. It would have been better to be bolder and undertake some reforms that stuck even if it meant a few less years in power.
RU, no I have everything turned off. I think Google have been bribed by the hotel industry to make these symbols permanent.
387
Labor won on Green preferences.
Labor got 750,746 Green preferences in TCP.
http://results.aec.gov.au/13745/Website/HouseStateTcpFlow-13745-NAT.htm
Labor got only 43.38% of the primary vote.
Pegasus
Tell them it can be fixed that with PR, and not just for the Greens but all smaller parties – perhaps refer them fairvote.org as a starting point and tell them to spread the PR word.
Fredex
Well said, indeed.
Fredex
Thanks for at least trying.
These are policy areas, not policies. I would note that in many if not most, substantial progress has been achieved in the past 18 months.
joncanb
Well said, too! Two well expressed posts in a row there, that sum it the preceeding discussion in a neutral fashion – a breath of fresh air after the usual partisan vitriol for the past few hours.
Psephos – I’m not getting ads on Google Earth maps.
Actually I think its good people can exchange ideas without resorting to personal attacks.
Altho not agreeing with most of the greens reasoning,it is still valid nonetheless.
Fredex
I agree on some of your points and feel that perhaps some of those issues you outlined are the ones the greens would like to “own”
ie
Tomtfab
Did it occur to you that Labor received 78% of Green preferences because that is the way the voters preferred their preference to go?
ruawake
careful – there’s a PR debate trigger there
jv
We have the electoral system we have, no matter how much I want the Senate abolished or how much others want pv, neither are going to happen.
JV @ 398
Thanks for the link. Has been bookmarked and will explore further
ruawake
But changes start with a wish. Everyone just accepting the political status quo doesn’t make improvement possible, as many Iranians obviously believe.
Your wish to abolish the Senate works – if we have my PR in the Reps. But you need a referendum passed for your wish, I don’t for mine.
If the 10% or so voters who voted for the Greens at the last election had the exclusive right to vote for either Labor’s CPRS or the Greens’ ETS, Labor would win easily by at least a majority of 7 to 3.
Could you imagine implementing a policy of cuts in emissions of between 25% to 40% by 2020 where the main players, the real ones who can make a difference to CC, are cutting much less?. We would be the laughing stock of the world. It would be the end of the Irish jokes as we know them. You would have Irish jokes being replaced by Aussie jokes all over the world.
But my favourite PB Greens policy is the one where you phase out people driving their cars. Wow, what a turn around in the polls that would bring?
Howard Zinn
Not that I am advocating revolution
In the face of the GFC and AGW, ‘business as usual’ or the acceptance of the status quo does not cut it anymore.
Poor old Steve Lewis, he still can’t believe they got it so wrong or that they have anything to answer for. He still believes Rudd does.
Steve, build a bride old boy. Move on.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25729056-5005941,00.html
With respect to Fredex.
Can anyone point out where ALP policy on women
http://www.alp.org.au/platform/chapter_13.php#13women_making_equality_real
Is different to Greens policy
http://greens.org.au/node/801
Pegasus
Probably even better links for PR on reflection, including this UK site – it has a great mythbusting section debunking all the usual furphies vested interests trot out in PR debates:
http://www.makemyvotecount.org.uk/blog/archives/myths/index.html
And another one “The PR Library”:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/polit/damy/prlib.htm
GB those poor folks at news ltd are reeling that they have been named and shamed by Rudd and I bet they’ll just get more shrill and hysterical. The funny thing about the deadline defence is they have never said when they received the call about the email. I reckon they didnt ask Rudd until 4pm Friday simply so they could print the front page without his reply. I’m sure they had the story prepped before 4pm
I suppose you meant bridge, but considering the frankensteinian outpourings from his poison pen, a bride may be more suitable.
Could someone tell Steve Lewis and the Libs that Grech was *not* under oath?
Sorry, folks, but I’m back. Tried to post this around 383 but the site went down. Definitely my last word on this though. I hope people do read it.
This whole debate has nothing whatsoever to do with direct economic effects on individuals. That is the Coalition line being used to water down the “existing” ETS Legislation. It has already passed the Reps!
What is being pushed is that all Labor needs to do is strengthen the “existing” ETS and convince the “people” that that is a good idea. The people have already spoken and they agreed with Labor that the country “should” have an ETS.
The problem is that the Coalition, the Greens and Independents won’t accept that and pass it through the Senate!!!!!
The reality is that if this doesn’t pass and Labor have a DD election, If they win and don’t lose any seats in the Senate, then the existing ETS will be passed at a Joint Sitting.
The other “IF” here, is that if the Greens do what their supporters here badly want them to do and knock off three or four Labor Members in the House of Reps and Labor do not improve their Senate position, then the Joint Sitting may “not” pass the Bill.
Back to square one. No ETS.
If Labor get knocked off at the next election, (not a DD) with the Greens taking seats off them to make things harder and increasing their seats in the Senate, probably at the expense of Labor, then there will be a Conservative Government which will “not” introduce an ETS and there will be no substantive Senate opposition to do anything about it. Zilch!!!!
People who can’t see that are not looking very hard or thinking very hard about the scenarios. Just wanting something or wishing something does not make it happen. Reality is far different and people need to understand that.
Too many people just skim through posts and read what they want into the rest. Far better arguments would be put forward if only some people would “read” the posts and digest them before they sprout off with the same line over and over in varying formats but in reality only say the same thing.
The election is over, the people have spoken, Labor has an ETS Bill passed through the House of Reps, the Coalition, the Greens & Independents are refusing to pass it in the Senate, therefore no ETS Legislation is available to be pressed into service.
Unless Greens supporters come back to the world of reality from the world of fantasy, then the climate will keep changing and there will be nothing in place to address that and Australia will go to Copenhagen with a virtual nothing because there is “nothing”, just wishful thinking and obstructionism which is the cause of that “nothing”
Andrew
And why didn’t Lewis actively seek out a response to the ‘email’ from Rudd’s office immediately he received it? Isn’t that what journalists are supposed to do before publishing something detrimental to someone – check with the person affected, and in this case, the supposed author as well?
Lewis is wrong, it was not Rudd who said their was no email – it was Martine at the Senate Committee.
Surely this should have sent warning messages to his keen journalist brain? Especially since Grech said he told Lewis 4 times there was no email.
He should follow Albo’s advice – when you are in a hole, stop digging.
JV Steve Lewis does not mention the TIME he received the email info. I’m sure they could have contacted Rudd’s office earlier that Friday and got a response before copy time. Would it kill them to just apologise, after all Pauline Hanson got an apology for the fake photos!!
In a tiny little article hidden away in the middle of the Paper
The other thing about Turnbull’s and News Ltd defence is their reliance on the Grech testimony. He actually made qualifications like “I may be totally mistaken” etc. Should this have NOT raised the alarm somewhat??
Psephos –
Are you sure about that?
The deadline defence is a pathetic attempt to cover their hide. They should print a screaming headline on the front pages of all News Ltd papers apologising to the PM and to the electorate for their incompetent, unprofessional and misleading journalism.
The latest set of polls were as much an indication of News Ltd’s irrelevance as the Liberal Party’s.
Sky Agenda decided Rudd was being glass jawed and aggressive. I’ll go with that
with commentary from News Ltd hacks of course. How objective
It’s not too late for Turnbull to do a Sarah Palin, Howie’s favourite tactic: Cut and Run.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/meganomics/index.php/theaustralian/comments/turnbull_may_be_beyond_repair/
Psephos have you read my earlier response @ 307?
Frank Calabrese @ 368 “Sometimes I wonder if the Greens and their supporters are Closet Liberals.” Not this this little black duck and I am sure the vast majority of the others aren’t either.
)
Frank don’t you realize that your continuous attacks on the natural Labor – Green synergy aids the Libs and the CC deniers? I’m sure that it is unintentional.
ruawake
Labor is right in the middle of totally revamping policy in several areas relating specifically to women.
Domestic violence, child sexual abuse, family law reform will be looked at under a new system closely involving community groups and NGOs. This has a strong potential for reform and is directly counter to the COALition policy of silencing community and advocacy groups and NGOs.
Its embryonic [is that a joke?] at the moment and has taken longer to start than it should have [don't forget many community groups suffered financially in the previous decade] but progress is on the way.
Hopefully.
Its one area where, as I thought I said in my previous comment, the ALP is generally stronger than the Greens.
Actually the best party in this regard was probably the Democrats.
Unless Greens supporters come back to the world of reality from the world of fantasy, then the climate will keep changing and there will be nothing in place to address that and Australia will go to Copenhagen with a virtual nothing because there is “nothing”, just wishful thinking and obstructionism which is the cause of that “nothing”
What’s being proposed is effectively nothing. It’s a token measure that doesn’t come within cooee of actually doing something to stop climate change spiralling out of control. That’s why this sort of argument won’t wash with anyone much who’s actually concerned about climate change in any detail – and why it’s better to keep kicking Labor until they come back with something that’s actually at least vaguely conscionable.
Its one area where, as I thought I said in my previous comment, the ALP is generally stronger than the Greens.
How on earth is the ALP stronger than the Greens in any of these areas?
Oh Dear, I ponder out loud and I get attacked for it- so much for “Democracy” by the Greens. It seems I’ve hit yet ANOTHER raw nerve and exposed another home truth. Slo it is ok for the Greens and their Acolytes to attack Labor at every opportunity, yet when we do the same it is akin to being a baby killer.
Respect goes BOTH ways, respect us, and MAYBE we might return the favour.
I don’t think Grech said that.
A Senate committee is not a court. Committee chairs are not judges, they have no power to administer oaths. Giving false or misleading evidence to a parliamentary committee is a contempt of parliament, but not perjury.
And the last time Federal Labor did this they were relegated to Opposition for 13 years. Sometimes I wonder if the Greens and their supporters are Closet Liberals.
Of all the excuses I’ve heard for Keating getting smacked in 1996, “he just implemented too much progressive policy” is a particularly amusing new one…
Dogs 13.9, Hawks 4 points. Suck it up, Jeff Kennett.
Respect goes BOTH ways, respect us, and MAYBE we might return the favour.
It certainly does go both ways. I suspect there’s an awful lot of Green supporters who’ve grown a hell of a lot less friendly to Labor over the years due to encounters with Labor supporters who behave like Adam.
Rebecca,
Please take the time to go back a page or two and read my earlier posts, preferably all of them and you will see how that statement or the action proposed in it, is worthless and not viable for the reasons I have outlined.
It won’t matter “what” they come back with, IT will “never” pass. Wishful thinking won’t make it so!
AFL is politics by proxy?
V1M, have you advised the Greens that basing their whole political stragegy in trying to defeat sitting Labor members (Labor Left members, no less) tends to make Labor less likely to see any “natural Labor – Green synergy”?
Especially when they win those seats on the back of no Liberal Candidate running and the entire liberal vote goes to the Greens Candidate.
Can you imagine the outrage if Labor pulled a similar stunt ?
V1M, have you advised the Greens that basing their whole political stragegy in trying to defeat sitting Labor members (Labor Left members, no less) tends to make Labor less likely to see any “natural Labor – Green synergy”?
The entitlement Labor feels towards the inner-city, while at the same time dismissing its population with all sort of slurs, and ignoring policy popular in said areas, is spectacular. If Labor were more sensible, they’d treat those races like the Libs and the Nats do three-cornered contests; but no, they’d rather provoke the Greens into being a quasi-parliamentary-opposition than natural allies.
Does Mayo ring a bell?
Oh I forgot, it is evil for the ALP to preference Family First, yet the Greens have no qualms of accepting the Libs primary vote.
Especially when they win those seats on the back of no Liberal Candidate running and the entire liberal vote goes to the Greens Candidate.
Honey, we’re not in a first-past-the-post electoral system. If you’re going to rant on a blog full of electoral nerds, at least get this basic fact through your head.
Lighten up a little folks. Saw this gem by Acerbic Conehead on GM’s blog. Hope it passes moderation and doesn’t bug William.
Mrs Slocombe (shouting): Are you going soft in the head, Captain Peacock? Can’t you see I’m not able to deal with any other matters when my pussy isn’t feeling too good…
Cpt. Peacock (swallowing hard): Oh, it’ll turn up, Mrs Slocombe…you just mark my words…
Mrs Slocombe: Oh, my darling pussy – you’re safe – where have you been?
Pussy: Oh, I just hitched a ride on one of the delivery utes and met up with a tom called Jasper – we’re the best of friends now…
Cpt. Peacock: Erm…do you think he would put a word in for me with his owner…I hear he has promised to help Mr Costello from sleep-wear with a career change…
Psephos
In fact, the Senate committees do have the power to swear witnesses, as do many non-judicial tribunals that take evidence. I’m just not sure if Grech was actually sworn in on the 19th.
From “Notes for the guidance of witnesses appearing before Senate Committees”:
http://www.aph.gov.au/SEnate/committee/wit_sub/bro_two.htm
Oh I forgot, it is evil for the ALP to preference Family First, yet the Greens have no qualms of accepting the Libs primary vote.
Labor’s preferences elected a Family First senator, who promptly acted to frustrate a large portion of Labor’s agenda. Green preferences haven’t elected a Liberal since 1995. While I wouldnt be averse to them doing it again if Labor doesn’t stop crying wolf at every freaking election, it’s a bunkum comparison.
May I remind you that the “Liberal Independent” candidate only got 550 primary votes, where did the rest of the Liberal vote go ? certainly not to Tagliaferri.
May I remind you that the “Liberal Independent” candidate only got 550 primary votes, where did the rest of the Liberal vote go ? certainly not to Tagliaferri.
Once again, I’ll remind you that we actually have preferential voting in Australia. If there had been a Liberal candidate in the race, those votes would have gone to Carles as preferences instead of as primaries. Doesn’t make a damn bit of difference to the final result.
And as Adam has repeatedly stated was a result of Labor’s Primary Vote going DOWN. Why ? Because of “Socially Progreesive” Policies such as the Schools Hit List and Medicare Gold.
Rebecca,
There are several national women’s organizations, all of the major players, that are in direct consultation currently with Labor ministers and the relevant government departments with regard to policy development and implementation in several areas of concern relating to women [I mentioned some previously].
There can be, as I presume you are aware, a gap between policy and programme, where the nice words and the rhetoric, the sort of thing you get in offical policy statements, fails when push comes to shove and money and people and programmes do or do not get implemented.
When action is promised but never happens.
Since the election there has been slow progress made by the ALP and it is at the moment coming up with new structures that should have a positive impact on the real implementation of the lovely words contained in their policy.
If I mention “Time for Action” does that ring a bell?
The outlook is positive, far more so than pre November ‘07.
But look at the PRIMARY Vote ! Need I remind you.
TAGLIAFERRI – ALP 7,632 38.55%
CARLES – GRN 8,722 44.06%
And good old Mr ZAGAMI – IND 999 5.05%
I’m sure there are more than 999 Liberal Voters in Fremantle.
And as Adam has repeatedly stated was a result of Labor’s Primary Vote going DOWN. Why ? Because of “Socially Progreesive” Policies such as the Schools Hit List and Medicare Gold.
It wasn’t the fault of those on the left that Latham showed the political judgement of a newt in the weeks leading up to the 2004 election. Medicare Gold was the healthcare equivalent of Barnett’s grand canal, and the attacks on the supposed “schools hit list” would have gone down in flames if Latham’s spin doctors had been awake that week.
Bulldust – I recall the Liberal Party, in cahoots with the Principals of the major Independent Schools in their Newsletters imploring the parents to Return the Government.
I’m sure there are more than 999 Liberal Voters in Fremantle.
Yes, I’m sure there are. I’m not sure why this is so difficult to contemplate.
If the Liberals don’t poll in the top two, then whether they run a candidate or not is pretty irrelevant as long as they’re still preferencing the Greens.
The Liberals only just made the top two in Fremantle by a scrape at the last general election, and in the face of a campaign with several times more cash and volunteers, far more organisation and a full-time campaign office, there wasn’t a chance in hell that they were going to stay ahead of the Greens. So why waste the money?
Bulldust – I recall the Liberal Party, in cahoots with the Principals of the major Independent Schools in their Newsletters imploring the parents to Return the Government.
I also recall this. This doesn’t change that it wouldn’t have been a particularly effective attack if Labor’s spin doctors had been awake that week and actually done a remotely competent job of countering the attacks.
Frank, do you know what you get when you turn 999 upside down? Whooooo… Yes, the Number of The Beast!
And 999 was 5.05% of the total. Hmmm… 505, the same number as U-505, the German U-boat that was the enemy warship captured in action by the U.S. Navy in 1944 – the first since the War of 1812. If you add 1812 and 1944 you get 3756. Then, if you add those 4 digits together you get 21, the traditional age of majority. So the Liberals got a majority after all. You’re right!! There are more than 999 Liberal voters in Fremantle! Those Greens and their secret power with numbers …
You are living in La La land when you’ve got the Private Schools lobby with a captive audience of “Howard’s Battlers” and swinging voters via the weekly school newsletter, along with a Howard complient media. Oh and add the scaremongering of Today Tonight & A Current Affair- especially when it is an attack of parent’s “right to choose”.
THAT is the political reality – it ain’t in the Disney world the Greens live in.
Pegasus
edmund burke in 1774 warned the British
the rest as they say is history.
JV, thanks, I wasn’t aware of that. I’ve watched a lot of Senate hearings and I’ve never seen an oath administered.
Frank
If the message of the actual funding proposal for schools had been properly enunciated by the Latham team, the only newletters going home with a negative message would have been those from LNP headquarters. The policy did not attack the rampant state-aid rort to any real extent. Latham just shot himself in the foot.
You are living in La La land when you’ve got the Private Schools lobby with a captive audience of “Howard’s Battlers” and swinging voters via the weekly school newsletter, along with a Howard complient media. Oh and add the scaremongering of Today Tonight & A Current Affair- especially when it is an attack of parent’s “right to choose”.
If I were Latham’s spin doctor in 2004, I certainly wouldn’t have dropped the policy on the electorate at the last minute (due to the possibility of this sort of attack), and I wouldn’t have used the formula he did, for the same reasons.
If he’d brought it in a year or two before the election, set out criteria based on capital works need as opposed to plain numerical socioeconomic status (i.e. “you get money because you’ve got 30 year old science labs, not because your students fall into a certain demographic bracket), and backed it up with a press tour around the country showcasing run-down and neglected schools in need of that funding, he’d have been on a winner. Practically, you’d be targeting the funding at poor public and Catholic schools, and wiping out most of the funding going to private schools, but sidestepping accusations of class warfare in the process.
And isn’t Rudd doing EXACTLY the same thing, and Limited News STILL ran it as a Class Warfare scheme ?
Psephos @ 459
It doesn’t necessarily mean Lewis is correct though. Do we have a recording or transcript of the start of the committee session so we can see if there was an oath/affirmation? The Finnigans – are you there?
I would have made sure it was all on oath if I had been in the chair, public servant or not, given the implications of the issue being examined. It could also have implications for Grech himself if he was under oath and he lied or mislead.
And isn’t Rudd doing EXACTLY the same thing, and Limited News STILL ran it as a Class Warfare scheme ?
He might be, but if he is the fact that I haven’t heard about any great controversy suggests it isn’t exactly the electoral suicide it’s being portrayed as.
This debate is for children audience only, it contains:
* rough language
* illogical arguments
* personal attacks
* here we go around in mulberry bush
* class warfare
* La la land
JV, my recording has been consigned to the dustbin of history, along with Malcolm Turnbull and Sarah Palin (the Julie Bishop of American politics or is it the other way around?)
And right here Frank, “And isn’t Rudd doing EXACTLY the same thing, and Limited News STILL ran it as a Class Warfare scheme ?”, you have hit a crucial nail on the head with a very important hammer.
If you are going to be damned if if you do and damned if you don’t you may as well do that which is right and proper cos the Liberal media is going to kick …. out of you anyway.
And if you don’t because you can’t or you fail after trying then at the very least it has been placed on the agenda as a viable alternative which, with proper leadership can be developed into a vote winner cos that is actually what the public wants.
They say so in polls.
And I think you may be wrong about the current ALP policy of providing funds to schools based on ‘need’ anyway.
But had it been Election time and the Opposition wasn’t the rabble it currently is then we all know what the result may be.
Rebecca
The rich schools won’t be complaining with their $300,000 grants for another set of playing fields – so yes, there will be no controversy. Unfortunately, the shameful buckets of public money to private schools per student and for capital investment increased by Howard continues unabated. The stimulus money is flat, therefore favours the richer private sector.
So it is now been exposed that the Greens are the party of Envy, only the poor and disadvantaged get the spoils the the others don’t.
Congratulations, your dopey policies will ENSURE that Class Warfare continues in Australia.
If Grech lied he can still be in trouble, because contempt of Parliament is a criminal offence. But in fact he didn’t say there *was* an email – he said it was his *recollection* that there was an email. It would be hard to prove that he lied about what he recalled. That is, of course, provided it is not proved that he fabricated the email himself. Then he would be in very deep trouble indeed. Unless that happens, I expect prolonged stress leave followed by early retirement will be his fate.
The Finnigans
You left out my favourite:
“pot, meet kettle”
You discarded a contemporary record? How could you? That is a part of the history of 19 June 2009, an experience that will have us remember where we were when Eric brandished the ‘email’. (Oh dear, we’ll all be saying “I know exactly where I was -in front of the computer!” – how sad).
Anyway your recording somehow ended up on my Ipod – I must have had it connected to the computer at the time. I was listening in the car on ’shuffle’ coming back from somewhere last week, and went from Radiohead to the dulcet tones of Senator Abetz, “Mr Grech, Mr Grech, If you’d just let Mr Grech answer the question, it is within his knowledge…” . Tragically I listened on for most of it before going back to music. But I don’t have the very beginning of the session.
So it is now been exposed that the Greens are the party of Envy, only the poor and disadvantaged get the spoils the the others don’t. Congratulations, your dopey policies will ENSURE that Class Warfare continues in Australia.
This is insane. Green policy would merely ensure that the disadvantaged schools get a reasonable share of the “spoils”.
I went to two different high schools. One was in the process of seeing its first injection of capital works funds in about thirty years, still had science labs which were dubiously safe, had holes in the walls, and barely had playing fields to begin with.
The second was a low-end private school that, with the combination of fees and government funding, was able to afford about an extra wing every year, and built an entirely new library, arts centre and amphitheatre, with major extensions of its assembly hall and VCE centre in the space of four years.
How in the hell is it in any way rational that those two schools should get even anywhere near the same amount of government funding, purely on a basis of need? Labor needs to stop supporting this obsession with middle-class welfare.
And that second school was in a bracket that wasn’t even close to being touched by Latham’s suggested cuts.
And risk being in opposition for as long as we did LAST time ? Middle Class Swinging Voters decide election – you MESS with their choice of Private School and it’s funding at your political peril.
Frank @ 469
Please don’t suggest, yet again, that I’m a member or supporter of a party. I am a supporter of many policies and ideas, but not those of any particular party.
You could’ve fooled me with your constant pushing of those views – rather like so called “ALP supporters like Bob 1234 and JoleB1 who “was” a “Life Long ALP Supporter” -pull the other one – it plays Jingle Bells.
Youse should’ve learned by now not to get into arguments with Frank. He makes me look positively non-partisan!
Palin is pulling pin as Gov of Alaska. Reported to have been confusing about whether this meant “goodbye for ever”, or “see ya at the next presidential elections”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/04/us/politics/04palin.html?_r=1&hp
Psephos
I know, and that’s saying something. I imagine he chairs the ALP focus group sessions, as a neutral facilitator, keenly listening to the thoughts of others, and taking them on board and passing them on for the benefit of the party?
Youse should’ve learned by now not to get into arguments with Frank. He makes me look positively non-partisan!
Well, there’s no MasterChef on Saturdays, and I need my entertainment somehow…
Nope, ordinary, but PASSIONATE Branch Member who will defend it to the death, but according to the Perfect Greens, doing so is a major crime.
aka “I’m a T**ll”
How long are we going to be in Afghanistan?
The Pentagon estimates that it will take 7 years and between $10 and $20 billion to train an Afghan army of about 260,000 troops, about the number they reckon it would need to keep the lid on the volcano.
As for the national police force, nobody even seems to have much of an idea of where to start.
Meanwhile, back in the Old Dart:
‘A furious political row over homophobia intensified last night when the Conservatives accused two openly gay ministers of “stirring up hatred and division” after they claimed that many Tory MPs were homophobic.’
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6633214.ece
Meanwhile, Katharine Waymout, publisher of The Washington Post is into a whole new concept in peddling influence. The WP.. ‘had sent out a brochure offering sponsorships — a fee of $25,000 for one, or $250,000 for an entire series — for an exclusive “Washington Post salon” at Ms. Weymouth’s home in which officials from Congress and the administration, lobbyists and, yes, the paper’s own reporters could have a quiet, off-the-record dinner, discussions to be led by Marcus Brauchli, the newspaper’s editor. Theoretically, you can’t buy Washington Post reporters, but you can rent them.’
Following criticism, the idea has been dropped.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/04/business/media/04post.html?ref=business
Oops Waymout=Waymouth
Boerwar 485
I know the MSM is desprate to find hew ways to make money, but selling off what is left of their credibility is not the solution.
Socrates
Yeh. There are several interesting things about it. The one that got me was the judgement about what was likely to be acceptable to the general public. So I checked: sure enough, Ms Waymouth was a lawyer.
The Indian Foreign Minister has indicated that India is not interested in engaging in greenhouse gas reduction by the numbers.
A new study has found that the top metre of permafrost soil contains twice as much carbon as previously estimated. The researchers think this might speed climate change a fair bit.
(I read this in hard copy, there was no author for the hard copy and no names of researchers were provided. Relevant article is said to be in the Global Biochemical Cycle.)
Well, I succeed in my aim. I have temporarily got Labor v Greens Flame War Chapter 7642 off the air, but I am exhausted by the efffort.
*goes*
Boerwar @ 478
Still laughing about Palin’s quote -
“We are not retreating, we are advancing in a different direction”
Straight out of the Monty Python handbook.
Frank is in charge of outreach and bridge-building, answerable directly to the National Executive. He does a great job.
Damn, you blew my cover
Psephos
GoogleEarth.
In Layers there is Geographic Web. Under that, at the bottom, is Businesses. You can tyrn that on and off.
Works for me
Psephos please read my reply @ 307 to your earlier constructive comments. We agree on more than we disagree.
Frank, all I can say is that you are the enemy of my enemy, therefore you are my friend. Love ya bro!!
. BTW loosen up a bit 
Psephos, Grech said he spoke to Lewis 4 times on the day before the hearings.
Steve, yes, but he didn’t say that he told Lewis there was no email, which is what someone claimed earlier.
Psephos but Grech does clearly state exactly that here it is even time marked 4-05pm.
Senator CAMERON—That is correct. So you denied the existence of any correspondence to Mr Lewis.
Mr Grech—That is correct.
CHAIR—Senator Cameron, you can have a couple of more questions. Other Senators have indicated to me that they have other engagements and will need to travel, so we have only got time for a couple more.
Senator CAMERON—So in relation to the media reporting today, what was it that upset you so much in the media reporting?
Mr Grech—Well, clearly, Senator, when news reports of that nature appear and when they are reporting on issues that are close to home, as it were, in terms of the work that you have been undertaking, it is very uncomfortable because people obviously will assume that a lot of these serious issues have been given currency or have been given fuel, if you like, by me when, frankly, the original representations as they relate to Mr Grant were part of my normal work. They came in, I dealt with it as best as I could in the circumstances, and what was supposed to be, from my perspective a relatively routine event, has turned obviously into a significant matter.]
steve
Does the transcipt show a the beginning whether or not Grech was sworn in?
JV here is the transcript.
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S12204.pdf
“Correspondence” usually means letters. Grech had said specifically only a few minutes earlier that he recalled an email from the PMO. (However, if we want to be technical, he says “Prime Minister’s Department”, and the PMO is not part of the Prime Minister’s Department, PM&C.)
thanks Steve, for the transcript link.
The witnesses were not sworn – Lewis is, in fact, incorrect when he says Grech was sworn inn nat the committee.
If the ALP had won the `61 election then how long would the DLP have stayed popular among Victorian Catholics? Would the Victorian ALP have been cleaned out earlier? Would the ALP have one back office in Victoria sooner? What things would be better about Australia?
These are odd questions which seem to indicate that he had some idea that something was going on.
Why would he ask a question about threats and the like unless he had some word from somewhere, a leaker in News Ltd?
And Grech’s answer was equally odd. Just a simple no would have been easy, his answer implies that is was a little more complicated than that.
We have allegation that Grech showed Turnbull and Ebetz the email before the Senate Committee hearing, that Grech has on one day contacted Lewis at least 4 times and before that who knows. We have Turnbull seemingly alluding to the contents of the email in the Parliament before the Senate hearing and we have Hockey refer to Grech specifically on the Sunday show.
It all sounds like a grand collusion by the forces of evil except that it appears the forces of good had some idea that things were afoot and some idea of the detail.
At the same time Turnbull was alluding to the subject matter of the email in Parliament we had Gillard giving the OO bit of criticism and both Rudd and Gillard doing that since, which is something new. Rudd was seemingly confident right from the beginning about the issue and was very quick to advise that the email was false and quickly involve the AG and AFP.
I am begining to see that the quiet message to Cameron to lighten up on playing interference at the hearing was more like telling him to stop over playing and over acting.
Probablly the AFP have known pretty much from the start what was going on and who all the players were and Rudd was given some idea at least a day or two before hand. It almost seems as Rudd and Gillard know a number of people are in trouble and possibly some inside the murdoch media and is why they are gently giving them some criticism.
My personal favorite bit of the transcript is where Cameron tells Erica that, “you are making it up”.
Mr Martine—Senator, as I have just indicated, and Mr Grech indicated this as well, there were no phone calls from the Prime Minister’s office. As I have indicated, we have had no correspondence. We have been able to locate no correspondence whatsoever in relation to—
Senator ABETZ—Why can I not ask Mr Grech that question, which resides personally in Mr Grech’s knowledge?
Senator CAMERON—Because you are making it up. You are making it up. That is what you are doing.
331 Gary Bruce,
That doesn’t stop us from trying and wishing
Someone seems to be able to predict a bit of trouble for Turnbull.
Senator ABETZ—Yes, but I am asking whether the name Andrew Charlton rings a bell for him in relation to—
Senator CAMERON—It rings a bell, but not for the Prime Minister.
Senator ABETZ—Can I finish?
Senator CAMERON—It rings a bell for the Leader of the Opposition.
Ruawake 371, have always voted Labor but consider myself “on the fence” [and have been described as such by others on PB in the past] as I came mm’s from voting for the Greens in the 07 election.
Would answer your question with policies on immigration and/or detention (while BETTER than the Libs do NOT go far enough) and the Republic (they don’t give that nearly enough priority in the queue) and Aboriginal policy (Howard’s changes in the sunset days/months of power need to be rolled back and disposed of). Probably a few more but it is getting late and can’t think of what #4 and beyond might be.
Cheers from Perth
Hi Juliem, long time no see. Good luck tomorrow, but not too much
I’m off to watch the tour de force now, go Cadel!!!
434,
Too bad we couldn’t have said same about Eddie AND Jeff in the same weekend …..
Thomas Paine
Yes, it seems when you listen to the committee again that there was something known by the ALP members, sufficient for them to stop Grech from answering key questions – until the very end. I can’t accept it was choreographed though. The chair genuinely seemed to me to be doing everything possible to stop the key questions being answered by Grech – if it was a charade it was better choreographed than anything I’ve seen.
And what about Martine? Was he in on the joke with the government members? I doubt it?
Martine was probably trying to shut Grech up because he knew Grech had been blown out of the water, and was the Treasury mole, and had no credibility any more. Why would his boss want Grech answering anything in that situation? Maybe the government members knew that much too, and thought Grech unreliable and a LNP stooge, and should be shut down on that ground.
I doubt if any of them in the room, apart from Grech, knew what the AFP know now however, about the origins andf progress of the fake email.
And possibly Abetz of course
Steve,TP
The more and more one analyses the available evidence, the more obvious that malcolm and co are in deep merde.
I would hazard to say that certain interested parties will be doing as much history re-writing as they can.
The most damning evidence of some form of collusion is the fact that the headline couldnt be changed and “the presses were ready to roll”-pure poppycock
that statement would have been true back in the ’50’s but with modern techonology a headline can be changed even as the presses are rolling.
Vera 510,
I’m always here. Not always posting atm unless there is something particularly useful to add. Will admit to not reading every post every day but in and out several times a week. Same old, same old ….. probably why I’m not in an a regular basis these days ….. step out for several days and the rusty, creaky corners are still in the same places they were when I last checked in
…..
Btw, we’re having a crap season atm so I don’t expect much tomorrow. And, don’t forget, you have my offlist email so feel bloody free to use it whenever you want if there is a specific political issue you want my input on and I’ve not checked in here often enough for you
Rudd and Co would have been suspicious to something from Turnbull’s comments in Parliament, Hockey’s mention of Grech and to complete the picture Turnbull’s fronting Charlton.
No doubt they did a quick check of everything after Turnbull collared Charlton with regard to documents and correspondence as much as they could guess.
If there is no games going on at the Committee then they (Cameron) were maybe at the stage knowing some of what had gone on but not yet that it was to do with a forgery. But it seems to me that Rudd came up to speed very quickly on the whole affair and had the air of a man who knew he had nothing to worry about.
The most interesting questions revolve around the hows, whens and who of the faked document. Look forward to it all coming out, hopefully reality is even more interesting than my imagination.
david marr ( I think) rehashed the kirby thingy.
Eerily the echoes were familiar, if not the participants.
as an aside , one of the things that really pisses people off about Rudd , is that he is a “straight arrow”.and apparently is principled.
To those unused to such lofty idealism, he certainly can be hard to “smear”.
Once the libs get used to that, perhaps they may get back to being an oppositiona s opposed to a bunch of blaggards amd malcontents
Grech’s evidence all the way through was clear and articulate until he got to the email bit where he seemed very reluctant and even put doubts on his own word, which is strange if he went to all the trouble of making up the faked email. And if it wasn’t him he still would have known the email was fake, given Martine’s evidence.
He also seems he was reluctant for it to be used in the press.
It does seems a bit like Grech has been used in all this. So it is possible the ‘plan’ has been forced on him. Or he was having second thoughts all the way through.
William, what criteria must be met before someone is banned? Can you be banned for repeated posts of poorly written and quite frankly hard to follow baiting, stawmaning and tr o ll i ng when coupled with almost no constructive and enlightening comments (when you come to think of it) and the excessive use of the same old phrase to the point when you only bother to type in it’s two key words?
I have much to say on todays discussion but are too sleepy to formulate a responce right now. Needles to say, a certain someone has left me rather confused and frustrated.
On a completely unrelated topic: 368 & 442 – what the heck?
Also William if the excessivly used phrase is misused to mean either “ditto” when strictly speaking that is not it’s exact meaning or as a substitue for argument, would that add further weight to the banning prospects? Particulaly if s/he is the primary barrier preventing social harmony between people of different political pursuasions?
Cheers.
THM, I gather that #520/#522 is an attack on a commenter you don’t like, rather than an actual question worth answering. I would much prefer it if you just said what you meant rather than try to drag me into it.
I knew i was on to something yesterday:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/australia-third-happiest-place-on-earth-20090705-d8ns.html
I must say I am surprise about Costa Rica. I always had an image of it as kinda banana republic. I am sorry, Costa Rica.
BTW: Julia Gillard had a wardrobe malfunction this morning on Ten’s Meet the Press.
Further to the comments earlier re Lewis stating that Grech’s evidence was “sworn testimony”, Turnbull has been putting that out all over the place also.
One of the “few” threads still holding him from falling down the cliff face!
[Mr Turnbull has told Sydney radio the Coalition can win the next election despite recent poor poll results.
"We can win this next election and we should win the next election," Mr Turnbull said, according to The Weekend Australian Financial Review.
"If Australians want to see their economy managed in a way that will not put an intolerance burden of debt and deficit on the shoulders of their children and their children after them, if they want to see Australia's economy managed responsibly, then they should vote for us."
He also defended his role in the OzCar scandal, saying he had never raised the matter of an email - allegedly from a government adviser - asking for special treatment for a car dealer friend of Mr Rudd. The email later turned out to be fake.
"I never raised the matter of the email. I didn't quote from it, I didn't even refer to it.
"The criticism I made of the Prime Minister a week ago on Friday was based entirely upon the sworn evidence given by a Treasury official [Godwin Grech] before the Senate … I didn’t publish the email or wave it around or refer to it. I was relying simply on the sworn evidence of the Treasury official given in the Senate committee.” ]
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Poll-shows-Rudds-approval-at-70-pd20090703-TLFUU?OpenDocument
I prefer the first part of this article though.
Witnesses are not ’sworn in’ before giving evidence before a Senate committee anyhow.
Of course there are possible penalties for providing false or misleading evidence… but it’s still not ’sworn evidence’.
Gusface @518 “blaggards and malcontents” perhaps “blowhards and malcontents” has a better ring to it ?? your thoughts
Err Talcum, it wasn’t just criticism, it was basically impled they acted corruptly and you demanded they all resign..not just ‘criticism’.
Turnbull is still a political fool, novice and naive. When you get thoroughly embarrassed and found out to be a real tool over an issue you don’t then again raise it trying to defend your toolish behaviour.
Every time Turnbull tries to excuse himself on this episode he is asking the people to again make a judgment on his behaviour, but they already have. Good way to remind the people Mal, keep it up until election day. And he might, he just can’t accept that he got beaten and out played by a professional and will keep want to pick at that sore.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25735714-5005962,00.html
Tony Smith? But he’s a punce of Pyne proportions!!! Oh well, he’d guarantee Labor remains in power.
So if there’s a leadership change, that’ll be the fourth Liberal leader in 21 months. Is four leaders in 21 months a record? I believe it is…
Steve 502
Thanks for the transcript link – great reading the whole thing in perspective. One point I found fascinating early on (P11 from Abetz to Mr Cohen of Ford Credit) was that the Ford Credit guy never actually followed up and spoke to John Grant anyway. In other words, no favour was ever received by Grant, even potentially. So the sum total of this “gotcha” even if it had been true, was an unsuccesssful attempt to sek a favour for a mate.
Another point early on in the testimony that is regretable to have been lost in this was the evidence from Mr Cohen (Ford Credit) about how successful the OzCar scheme had been in supporting car dealerships and their employees including mechanics, apprentices etc, many of whom work in regional areas. So they are attacking a scheme that is shoring up a lot of jobs in their own electorates. Not exactly pork barreling by government. Hypocrites.
Clarification of 530 – the Ford Credit guy never met with Grant; they did have a phone call but no meeeting. Ford Credit were not interested in supplying credit to a Kia dealer.
Mr Delaney (Motor Dealers Assocaition) clarifies that 75,000 jobs were at stake in the firms guaranteed credit by OzCar. The OzCar policy is actualy a terrific govt success – it works out at about 1 permanent job protected for every $6000 of the guarantee. That is a bargian compared to the $70,000 per job the former govt spent (money lost) propping up (unsuccessfully) Mitsubishi. And the money isn’t even lost anyway – it is either a credit guarantee (not exercised) or a loan that is being repaid.
[Youthful Ideals Shaped Obama Goal of Nuclear Disarmament
In the depths of the cold war, in 1983, a senior at Columbia University wrote in a campus newsmagazine, Sundial, about the vision of “a nuclear free world.” He railed against discussions of “first- versus second-strike capabilities” that “suit the military-industrial interests” with their “billion-dollar erector sets,” and agitated for the elimination of global arsenals holding tens of thousands of deadly warheads.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/world/05nuclear.html?_r=1&hp
Bob, it looks as though the Liberals are preparing to spoil their Christmas as well as midyear maybe it is their idea of having vision and plans for the future. Why backbenchers aren’t worried now escapes me.
Re Utegate: C1990 + and – a few years, Kev Rudd was such a lethal nit-picking, paper-trail hounding Q bureaucrat he earned the name Dr Death. Note paper-trail hunting. Keeping a paper-trail is a PS taken for granted Had a tricky question been asked of Premier Goss in Q parliament, Rudd’s first order would have been, “Check the files. Check the paper trail.”
In 2009 that order would have been, “Check the PMO, Treasury and any other possible servers and server logs.” Given his very certain and aggressive counterattack on Turnbull in QT’s closing minutes of 4 June 09, I’d have a tenner on there being a note (on the info on which his response was based) going something like: “Checked and cross-checked all servers. No email.”
Obviously neither Turnbull, nor any other Opposition member he consulted (inc Abetz), has any idea how the PS works. At that stage, any person who aspires to be PM would have sought out someone who could tell him why Rudd appeared so absolutely sure, and would have been told, “Any email sent on/received by a parliamentary computer will be recorded on the servers and their logs, even if it’s been deleted by the person/s concerned.” (There’s oodles of room – all the room on those slow old mainframes that cost squillions – to store every email for the foreseeable future) And a wannabe PM with nothing to hide would have replied, “How can I put a check in train? Whom do I ask?”
That Turnbull neither understands the Public Service, nor Rudd, either:
says a great deal about his fitness to be PM,
and/or shows that he knew from the start that neither any trace of this email, nor of earlier ones behind earlier leaks, existed on Parliamentary servers.
The next time Turnbull asked the same questions, Rudd knew (given Turnbull’s notoriously short span of patience and more notorious tendency to overplay his hand) if he could keep his cool and keep Malcolm playing long enough, he’d identify the Treasury mole, then out her/him and Malcolm in a way that provided perfect examples of those old saws: Know thy enemy, Softly softly catchee monkey and Hoist on his own petard.
Malcolm span of patience must have shown signs having run out for Rudd to hand his Blackberry to a staffer for a photo op (even a handy phonecall – every word recorded on mobile phone logs) when, at the Midwinter ball, Turnbull shirtfronted Charlton.
Friday’s Hansard record (thanks steve @ 502) and Rudd’s dealings with Steve Lewis should be read with the above in mind, and that (a) Abetz & Turnbull had briefed Godwin Grech (b) that key ALP MHRs and senators must also have been briefed about what the government then knew.
Although NewsLtd journos claimed to be perplexed at the emergence of what QLDers knew as Dr Death, QLDers weren’t; nor, if they’d done their “investigative journo” job, should the journos – Steve Lewis in particular – nor should any MHR aspiring to the PMship.
Where are we now?
Think of the main Howard Gov scandals. Part of a PM’s role, especially if s/he chooses all ministers, is ministerial and party discipline (JH had, remember, lost 4 ministers by this time in his first term, Rudd lost 1). Which of them happened because Howard was, quite frankly, as slack a PM as he was woeful a treasurer – Children Overboard? The MRI scandal? AWB? Haneef?
What’s the likelihood these sort of scandals will happen under Rudd’s Dr Death(ray)’s eye? Julia’s gimlet glare?
Oz Poll Tragic
Agreed; I have worked in the Qld public service under Rudd and his reputation was well deserved.
This was why I found Grech’s evidence so odd when this story first broke. On the one hand he didn’t have/wasn’t sure about the critical email. Yet on other aspects he was meticulous, even going beyond normal public service practice in referring to hansard:
“Senator ABETZ—I ask you why—you raising John Grant’s plight at this meeting I assume was on instructions, advice, suggestion, from the Treasurer’s office?
Senator CAMERON—Assume what you like—we are going to deal with the facts.
CHAIR—Senator Cameron, no interjections, please.
Mr Grech—Senator, I know that the Treasurer is in Hansard dated 4 June. The Treasurer has made clear that the case of Mr John Grant from Ipswich Motors was referred to Treasury by his office. When you talk about Treasury in this context, it was referred to me.
Senator ABETZ—Right. In these emails that we have just been provided, I note with some interest—I am just wondering: do the witnesses have these emails.
Mr Martine—We do have a copy, Senator.
So Grech is keeping track of everything Swan says in parliament and hansard references to it, yet failig to file his own emails of work requests from PMC? People should have realised then and there that this was fishy – normal practice is the opposite of that.
Tony Smith famous for running stimulus packages in boom times.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/07/1091732142367.html?from=storylhs
William C
I felt it would be a disservice to blowhards everywhere to lump ‘em in with this bunch of remorseless,ramshackle and reprobate libs.
I mean a person’s got to draw the line somewhere.
Vera, IF you are online and IF you read this before NOON your time in Sydney, next 20 mins., can you dash off an email to as asap? Need to reach you before NOON if possible, going out then … if you don’t read this till after 12 noon for you, just disregard ….. Cheers
Juliem said last night: “Would answer your question with policies on immigration and/or detention (while BETTER than the Libs do NOT go far enough) and the Republic (they don’t give that nearly enough priority in the queue) and Aboriginal policy (Howard’s changes in the sunset days/months of power need to be rolled back and disposed of).”
Juliem,
My views on the Rudd Labor Govt. are very much in synch with these viewpoints of yours. I’d add (as a Vietnam Vet) that I’m deeply disappointed in both Rudd and Obama for letting the global warmongering military/industrial complex escalate our war in Afghanistan. This will result in many more dead and maimed Afghan civilians and Occupation countries’ soldiers, the waste of untold billions of dollars of debt-money during the GFC to prop up the corrupt city-state govt. in Kabul and a continued flooding of the world’s drug market with their only cash crop, opium.
Like yourself, I’m now reading posts in PB daily, but only comment once in a while due to exceptionally busy schedule. The quality of analysis in here on the Grech-Turnbull debacle/farce has been singularly cogent and well ahead of MSM most of the time (as it is again this weekend). So, ‘onya, Bludgers——–played strong, done fine!
Poss, i am really amazed that Gorgeous George and Crabby Annabelle would allow themselves to be bullied and humiliated by Bolt on a national TV show, without even a whimper of a fight.
William Conroy (527). I think Gusface’s use of “blaggards” is just as good as “blowhards”. He is spelling it phonetically. A blackguard was the lowest servant in the big house. They were given the worst jobs, like tending the fires and scraping the burnt gunk off the pots and pans. They were covered in soot, coal-dust and the contents of the privvy. They made Baldrick look like Jeeves the butler. Essentially, they were regarded as the lowest of the low, untrustworthy, foul-mouthed and, well, blackguards. Sounds like merchant bankers and dodgy email peddlars should apply for any vacancies.
bolt is a fool but more in touch with reality than ackerman, and i dont mind the token torie on insiders. but he said a few things today that should not have gone without question such as using the indigenous report (which only measured up to 2007) to attack Rudd’s lack of progress on these issues
the tories are making exactly the same mistake labor made for years when howard was in power. they hate rudd so much and think its just a matter of time when the rest of the electorate wake up. rudd did well by accepting that howard was popular and agreed where necessary whilst developing a few important points of policy difference. it seems the libs are 2 terms away from doing this
JJ @ 540, not necessarily a heavy schedule in my case; but 50% other competing interests when online and 50% some of what I read when I am on PB (same old arguments get tired after awhile). Glad to see I’m not the only one in this boat
Bolt still denying the impact of the stimpacs on Insiders was hilarious. How he manages to keep a straight face is beyond me.
Looks like Tony Abbott has his running mate – the two Tony’s dream team.
The Conservative wing of the Rabble is sounding out support – via Glen Milne. It may just work.
I know… I know…
But…
Just having a look at Milne in the Sunday Tele today and I cannot but ask: “What the hell is this guy on about?”.
Last week it was AFP Stormtroopers reminded him of Stalin.
The week before it was “Rudd The Nerd” trying to speak Strine.
A bit before that it was… Oh I dunno… something else.
This weeks it’s Hospitals that’s going to bring him down where he belongs, apparently in the drainage ditch of politics.
This Very small Person has far too much hatred to appeal to anyone else than the Rusted Ons (plus spot-welded). The Poor Little Guy can’t find one thing – one thing – that Rudd has done right. Everything’s a muck-up. Everything’s spin and deception. Nothing is as good as Howard did.
Poor, nasty Glen. Cozzie’s left him. Malcolm never wanted him. The Libs are in total disarray. Yet he keeps on punching.
It’s a wonder they let him draw breath, much less draw pay.
Julie, Julie, Julie it was Milne behind it just ask him. Or maybe ask Lewis who his source was?
Just read some of Lawyer Malcolm’s recent speeches and even in parliament he claims Grech gave “sworn testimony”.
http://www.openaustralia.org/debates/?id=2009-06-24.97.2&s=speaker%3A10643#g98.7
I have tried to put myself in the position Peter Dutton finds himself. A very slim margin where he literally needs every vote he can muster.
How long would I persist with a leader who provides little or no leadership? Would I persist with a deputy who has less talent.
Maybe that is why he came up with this ludicrous comment.
“Smoking tax ‘would be cash grab’”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/05/2617204.htm?section=justin
BB went:
That’s a cracker of a phrase!
Dutton is nothing but a clown
An extraordinary performance by bolt on insiders, could have been andrew robb. Bolt is the reason we dont watch channel 9, he is on their anti-govt morning program.
The fact is Rudd has these clowns talking jibberish. Talk about playing with their minds. Their hatred is palpable.
Ruawake, I have just read your post at 550. Wow, so it’s OK for the Liberals to increase cigarette prices but if Labor do, it’s a tax grab?
What a truly sad and enjoyable state the party of John Howard has become? Sincere commiserations (no sarcasm) to Glen and GP.
How does Bolt get back on Insiders time and again when he is allowed to continually trot out his baseless CC denialist rubbish? The earth in the last 10 years has cooled to ‘normal’ levels was his closing spiel this week, singing Fielding’s praises. FMD.
Yep. I wonder how much scrutiny that particular backflip will get from the MSM this week?
George Meglogenis was good on Insiders this morning. He is much too good to work for News Ltd. As for Bolt, Andrew no matter how much you hate listening to it mate, you have got to learn to sit there, shut up, and take it.
Speaking of Bolt, he is a nut, but at least he is generally entertaining. Something that can’t possibly be said about Milne.
Shadow Health Minister should be one of the easiest jobs around, Dutton makes it look difficult.
That takes a special talent.
Centre
The big problem for Dutton is that he did not read the report. It says the tax increase should be quarantined from the budget and all funds used to reduce the rate of smoking.
The tax increase – if successful would reduce the amount of tax raised, because less people would be buying tobacco. So it is not a “tax grab” if it works it will reduce Govt. revenue.
When I was at the shops this morning I walked past The Daily Opposition only to find another screaming negative front page headline for Labor.
Supposedly Rudd is wasting around 150k on a school with only 1 student in it. Can you believe it! A school with one ( 1 ) student in it.
Who could bother buying such absurd and ridiculous investigative journalism, let alone reading it!
I’m sure that if there was a problem here, this case would pale into insignificance compared to the benefits that the stimulus has provided to schools in general. BUT you would never read it in the Daily Opposition.
Yes rua. But even if it was an initial tax grab, it would help to cut smoking which would benefit the cost to our health system, and eventually raise less taxes by people who quit smoking.
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/pubs/briefs/brief04.htm
And Ch 10 are running with the story as well.
I think question is was he sworn in or not?
At the 19 June Senate Committee hearing Senator Abetz appears to be under the impression that Mr Grech et al are under oath:
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S12204.pdf
They just showed Julie B on the ABC news saying she hasn’t heard anything about the two Tonys taking over the leadership. She looked happy and was laughing about it. Man, Turnbull is as goooone as I have ever seen
Maybe Julie was thinking the more that bite the dust, the closer to the leadership she gets!
On checking the spiffy Nation Building website.
The school in question has had zero funds approved.
Does this mean the report is not based on rigorous investigative journalism?
Frank, why couldn’t Rudd get on TV with a copy of The Opposition and flatly reject the headline as false and misleading!
War has been declared by the Dinosaurs at News Ltd. They have lost their power. Now is the time to finish the Dark Lord!
rua, they wouldn’t know what investigative journalism was. It’s time for newspapers to go. Much better for the environment as well.
Govt has alreaddy responded.
[Senator Mark Arbib, the Federal Minister for Government Service Delivery, says he is sceptical about the report.
"Almost all of these stories that we've gone away and checked out have been either inaccurate or not correct," he said.
"We will talk to the local principal at that school.
"[It] would have been a decision that came between the school community, the school principal and local regional co-ordinator.
“That’s how that school would have got a shade cloth and we will talk to them and find out if they need it or not.”]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/05/2617163.htm?site=news
Oh and the claim came from the NSW State Opposition.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/05/2617009.htm
566 Nick, Erica Betz would say or do anything to cling to Opposition. As Dario asks, was the oath administered to Grech? JV posted the following on Saturday night.
I’ll believe Grech was under oath if someone can point to the stage of proceedings where he sticks out a hand on a dusty old book and swears to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me etc.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2009/07/03/reuters-poll-trend-558-442/comment-page-9/#comment-301493
What the hell? The Federal opposition is claiming that an increase in tobacco taxes would be “a revenue raising measure”:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/05/2617204.htm?section=justin
Their leader proposed to do exactly that during his budget reply speech!
What sort of state government funds a school with 1 pupil?
Lagoon Primary School has an enrolment of 13, according to the NSW DET website.
Here is the transcript of the Senate Economics Committee hearing on 19 June.
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S12204.pdf
Nick, kindly show me where anyone was put on oath.
Grech appears at page 21.
I can’t Psephos. It’s not there.
Why would the rabble be so willing to “burn” Godwin? Could it be that they sacrificed one to save another?
Will another “mole” spring up from the ground? ‘)
Nick
We discussed this last night, and it was clear from the transcript that no oaths were taken in the 19 June committee. Otherwise there would be a note that the oath had been administered prior to each witness’s evidence, or a transcript of the usual question about swearing or affirming etc. while the secretary of the committee went through the oath routine. But the text just goes smoothly from the chair to he questioner. Abetz must have been referring to the sanctions under the rules of the Senate.
Anyway, apart from showing that journalist Lewis and MT are wrong to say Grech was under oath, it probably doesn’t amount to much. The AFP investigation has obviated what evidence was true or false at the committee.
It had better be there because on 24 June Turnbull told us that was the basis of his case against Rudd and Swan. Lewis was still writing articles based on it today.
P72-73
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/chamber/hansardr/2009-06-24/toc_pdf/6915-2.pdf;fileType=application%2Fpdf#search=%22chamber/hansardr/2009-06-24/0000%22
Re 550 & 574 All Labor tax revenue efforts are tax grabs unless MT suggests it then it becomes sensible policy linked re ciggies to health issues. The budget reply was made in a parallel universe where MT was triumphant (in his own mind) however now that he is banished to middle earth (Wenthworth/Afganistan), such thoughts are considered heresy, and idiots like Dutton are trying anything for a bit of media time which of course gets aired because it is anti Labor Govt. But the outright false reporting should be stamped on asap
centre i am happy to tolerate bolt- the stimulus package denial added to the climate change denial is good comedy…i often wonder is he really that stupid or does he do it to be controversial???
They are beyond a rabble
they are now the party of pandemonium
Wasn’t it supposed to be the highlight of the Budget reply that proved Turnbull could find alternative revenues to replace those knocked out by the Global Financial Crisis without the need for debt and deficit?
It was laughable then, and it’s beyond a joke now
The Opposition is so incompetent, chaotic and lost you would think political commentators would be taking them to task until they bothered to sort themselves out.
If bolt were even the rectal part of a journalist he would be going to town on the Liberal Party’s abject poverty in every single area.
Yet what we see is the MSM waving the flag for the Liberal Party trying to attack the government even on trivia. The media is totally negligent in not pointing out to the public just how much a mess the Liberal Party is in and how unsuitable and unready they are to be in government. The MSM is seemingly willing to help put chaotic fools into power on the basis they are not Labor.
Of course all this stems from the methodology of the entire Murdoch media where usually the criteria for selection is being right wing and without standards, it is only by chance they manage to run across the occasional decent non-partisan journalist.
And who has the glass jaw? Certainly not Rudd, they guy who handled Turnmail-gate like a veteran. I would say it is News Ltd who have the glass, squealing like stuck pigs because they exposed on extremely poor journalism.
Oh Dear, Dutton has really done it this time. Here is what Turnbull said in the Budget reply speech.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25482933-5013871,00.html
Andrew there can be no doubt that the only reason we recorded positive GDP figures was because of Rudd’s stimulus. Every economist who knows anything about economics would agree. It took a hell of a lot of guts to make such a quick and decisive decision to stimulate the economy the way Rudd did. There are many in the world who would have had second thoughts, or if they would have acted at all.
I don’t think Bolt does it to be controversial or that he is totally stupid, he is just soooo beautifully desperate
to kick Rudd out of office.
I thought it was so sad how Bolt endeavored to make the case that Rudd’s stimulus packages and Australia’s strong economic performance were just a coincidence. Such desperation or does he really believe that? If he does then he is living in delusion land as most other economic commentators admit that the stimulus package is having some telling positive effects on the economy.
Bolt usually has something sane to say but today he started to mix in some weirdness that is beginning to sound like denial.
Another position taken by those in denial is that Turnbull’s and the Coalition’s dip in the polls is only temporary and will all go away when people forget about Turnmail-gate.
The Coaltion’s TPP may begin to recover but people’s opinion of Turnbull wont recover that much. The huge drop in his character assessment indicates many many people were very disappointed with him. No cognitive dissonance there, his actions fit the lingering perceptions, people finally joined the dots.
The words of Malcom Turnbull’s budget reply speech have triggered the moderation button. No wonder really. Most words I object to are in that speech about why the price of cigarettes should be increased.
Happened to again come across the comments made by O’Connor Labor candidate Dominic Rose… anyone remember him? He was a laugh and a half
http://www.pollbludger.com/fed2007/oconnor.htm
Will Tony Abbott follow his master and be a convert to running a deficit?
Howard is now writing a book.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25737634-12377,00.html
Yeah, it’ll be like ‘we don’t remember why we think you’re a d***head, we just remember that you are’.
The only hope for the Libs is a complete clean-out. But don’t anyone tell them that.
Where were all of these people who are scandalised by “waste” in the stimulus package for schools etc., when the Howard Govt was handing out more than $160 million to Australia’s 26 wealthiest private schools over 2 years in 2002 to 2004 (eg. Wesley College-$20 million, Caulfield Grammar-$15 million, Scotch College-$9 million, Ivanhoe Grammar-$11 million)? (I don’t have any up-to-date figures…)
Each of these schools has several sports ovals and fields, tennis and basketball courts, heated swimming pools, indoor gymnasiums with squash, volleyball and basketball courts, up-to-the-minute IT facilities for each student, plentifully resourced science and technology laboratories and metal and woodworking laboratories, music and drama auditoriums that many small cities and towns could only dream of having, language laboratories, magnificent and fully equipped libraries, music instrumental tuition available to every student, are and graphic design centres, and so much more! Some even have indoor rifle ranges and equestrian centres, and boarding facilities for students’ pets!
Most of the stimulus funding is going on projects that have been on schools’ wish-lists, especially for government schools, which have been starved of funds from that very same Howard Govt. for more than a decade! If anything we should be objecting to the inclusion of these schools in the stimulus package!!
The Finnigans (#524) told us that SMH reported:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/australia-third-happiest-place-on-earth-20090705-d8ns.html
However, if you go to the web-site (do I have the right one?) at:
http://www.happyplanetindex.org/learn/download-report.html
and download the report at:
happy-planet-index-2-0.pdf
you find that Jamaica is third, United Kingdom is 74th, USA is 114th and Australia is 102nd not third.
Have I gone wrong somewhere?
Ahh, UWA Young Labor. Gotta love ‘em. I think he’s the guild president these days… or maybe that was last year. Only good for coming third and feeding preferences to the Nationals, and he couldn’t even get that right.
But we are talking O’Connor, where the ALP could’ve got Fat Cat to run and he still would’ve lost to Wilson
Argghhh
For some reason my old computer seems unable to handle:
http://www.happyplanetindex.org/learn/download-report.html
These are very important issues. Our country is so badly mishandled because the government forgets that the sole purpose of the economy is to provide a vehicle for overall well being in a sustainable manner. Every week the pollies argue over money, money, money but money won’t buy happiness – Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, any psychologist and any Lotto winner can tell you that. So why can we not get our priorities right? Why must we ruin the environment to produce a bloated, overactive and unsustainable economy that still leaves many in misery thus completely failing at its purported objective? It would improve all our lives immeasurably if the pollies focused on the important things. The bickering points are always “how will this policy effect the economy?” and not “how will this policy effect the well-being of our people and the sustainability of our planet?”.
Where on that list is Bhutan? Has the focus of the government on its ideology of GNH (Gross National Happiness), rather than GNP, produced better results than its neighbors or the impoverished Western economies?
[Argghhh
For some reason my old computer seems unable to handle:
http://www.happyplanetindex.org/learn/download-report.html
Well I’ll be nice to you and post the direct link to the pdf file
http://www.happyplanetindex.org/public-data/files/happy-planet-index-2-0.pdf
Thanks Frank – I now have it working.
Bhutan comes in at 17 out of 143.
Something strikes me as rather profound!
Check this out:
Vietnam: 5
Cuba: 7
Moldova:32 (the highest ranking European country)
Venezuala: 36
Laos: 19
Hmmm…. What do these countries have in common that is producing such a high level of well being and sustainability? I wonder? Those happy little watermelons!
Let us ponder another group of countries with something in common:
USA: 114
Australia: 102
NZ: 103
Israel: 67
UK: 74
Canada: 89
Luxembourg: 122 (the worst ranking European country)
Hmmm….
I also note that Belarus is way down the list at 104 as no doubt would the DPRK if they were included since extremely authoritarian dictatorships are never a good thing. The list does have its flaws though. Saudi Arabia comes in at 13 partially on the back of a low ecological footprint but this fails to recognize their part as an oil exporter. To an extent I do believe that it is the consumer that holds ultimate responsibility (and this goes for CPRS’s also) and so this is fair enough but at the same time I also feel that Saudia Arabia and Australia could make a very possitive contribution by capping oil, coal and uranium exports – which is about as likely as an Australian Democrats landslide at the next election.
I say:
Well about that likely in the foreseeable future anyway.
On to the topic of tobacco taxation as a “TAX GRAB”: Before someone pointed out that it will probably go into a seperate account to the main budget and, if effective, could actually lower revenue I actually thought to myself “oh goodie, more taxation on tobacco means either more services or less tax in other areas where there would be social progress from a decreeced tax. I like the sound of that tax grab”. If others think likewise then this Lib attack could be counter-productive.
This reminds me of early today on the news when Rann was attacking some of the leadership contenders for opposing his authoritarian bikie bill and I thought to myself “oh, thats pretty good of them not to agree with that populist anti-human rights police state clap-trap”.
Just to demonstrate that I am not blanketly hostile to the ALP (and I will admit things have improved since Howard) I will commend them for this tobacco policy as a genuine step in the right direction – that is if they actually follow through and don’t water it down once industry gets involved like they did with the ETS and with GroceryWatch (the second of which I don’t really care about).
My line for tobacco is similar to my line on ganga as discussed a few days ago – legalized but only through highy taxed government monopoly stores. In the case of tobacco higher taxation would probably increase the sale of blackmarket tobacco (or “chop-chop” in street lingo I believe) but would still lower overall consumption, which is the primary consideration – with discouraging organized crime (without being a totalitarian-esque Rann) and raising tax as secondary motivations for drug policy.
From today’s OO editorial, headed “Looking like losers”:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25737091-16382,00.html
By implication, the OO has also given up on Malcolm Terminal.
Frank says:
So Frank would you be satisfied if on election day the Greens how-to-vote-cards hand-out-volunteers looked up and down at every arriving person and if they look conservative say “I’m sorry sir/madam but I cannot give you a how-to-vote-card as we have qualms with accepting the Libs primary vote so please vote for someone else”? Furthermore Frank how would you respond if it was discovered that a serial infanticide maniac once voted for the ALP? You would point out that this does not mean the ALP endorses infanticide and that it is not considering changing its policies on the murder of children. Ditto the Greens and conservative voters. Every party tries to maximize its vote and this includes getting people of different ideological persuasions to vote for you. A MASSIVE number of ALP voters are ideologically closer to the Greens: Do you have any qualms with accepting their primary vote? So how can you be attacking the Freo Greens on the grounds that some people of different ideological persuasions voted for them?
Also as has been stated before there is a school of thought spearheaded by some very respected psephologists (I think it was my hero Mr Green of the ABC or possibly our Mr Bowe) that a sizeable number of ALP voters turned to the Greens and Lib voters turned to the ALP but that this phenomonon was camouflaged because they both occured at similar rates.
Well I think I successfully demolished that argument.
For the record I don’t agree with the Democrats and ALP preferencing FF but there are far worse sins. Also as I’ve said before 1 senator is much closer to the Australia wide support for the Religious Right parties than 0 is and so in a strange way it was almost kind of good for democracy even if the Greens candidate got far more votes (although based on other criteria it was sort of undemocratic).
I don’t think Frank actually believes this. Could anyone actually believe this? Which begs the question, why did Frank say this? It can’t be just an exaggeration because that is completely wrong at any intensity. The only reason I can think of is that he is intentionally trying to disturb the peace. What do we call it in the blogosphere when people intentionally make stupid comments to cause maximum havoc? Could it start with the letter ‘T’? To play devils advocate though, he did use the disclaimer words “sometimes I wonder”.
oh, perhaps Franks words were just a lame joke that just fell flat on its face.
And here is Glenn Milne at his… err… best:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25737024-7583,00.html
-too much hypocrisy to list in this self-serving, anti-Rudd rant.
Indeed Milne, so why push the dubious line,
Grech did not swear anything. Erica Betz read the fake email into the Senate Hansard.
Hmm, looks like I’m the second post in a row to link to the Oz (not that I can be bothered reading the first one). Young Libs bounce on a web poll yet again…
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22073824-5013404,00.html
What exactly is the point of rigging the result to look like Rudd’s good/average/bad performance goes 73/14/13? It’s not believable. Looks like those kids need to learn a thing or two about tactics and/or the fine art of rigging stuff properly.
I’d love to see Milne’s explanation of this exchange on page E44 of the senate transcript.
Senator CAMERON—You were asked more than once by Steven Lewis to confirm that correspondence and communication had taken place between the PMO, the Treasury, on the issue of Mr Grant. You denied that, and he persisted, and you again denied that that had taken place. Is that correct?
Mr Grech—Yes.
I can only assume that Milne did himself an undiagnosed but nasty head injury falling about at the Walkleys a couple of years back, and it’s pushing him over the edge. Today’s
is delusional.
What’s there to explain? Sounds like it’d be pretty standard for journalists to doggedly pursue their sources.
Besides I thought people here were claiming the entirety of Grech’s testimony was unreliable… if so you can’t seek to use bits of it to attack people you wish to attack and then disclaim anything that might look bad for the Government.
Ah, utegate, about to become and Autralian Story:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/pollaxed-turnbull-hangs-on-as-leader–for-now-20090705-d93v.html?page=-1
This AS will probably break viewership records!
I really love this pearl of wisdom from Milne:
i swear, on balance, Nessie exists.
i swear, on balance, God exists,
i swear, on balance, he’s an idiot.
ltep @ 614, perhaps he could explain why Lewis did not report that had Grech “more than once” refused to confirm the contents of the email that Lewis then ran with anyway?
As I read it, Steve’s point @ 612 was that this was a “relevant available fact” -as per the journalists’ code of ethics, and that not reporting Grech’s denials was “suppressing” this fact.
LTEP, I don’t think that ‘the entirety of Grech’s testimony was unreliable’ but I do think the opposition and News outlets have not given a balanced view of what Gretch did say at the committee.
#599, my understanding is that these are two different indexes.
Peter Brent gets with the program.
It be a different Peter Brent who comes out the other side of that program.
I hope Hartigan’s rant played a role in Mumble’s move to more bloggy blogging! I like the idea of H’s inspiring his own demise!
I think, from the look of The Oz’s front page today, its ed & most journos have truly lost the plot (ie increasing circulation, esp in the under 50s).
What on earth is our Prime Minister doing by fronting the Pope to give the drive to make a saint out of Mary McKillop?
Is he about to pull off the health budget coup of the century? Once it has been “proven” that praying to Mary McK will fix lung cancer (and, by papal extension, other forms of the disease) he can eliminate all of the comparatively useless radiotherapy, chemotherapy and surgical treatments. All he has to fund will be the cheap, self-administered treatment of prayer!
What patent mumbo jumbo. It has no place in Australian politics.
Not once did Milne in that story, point out that Rudd was right and Turnbull was wrong.
I think Rudd got caught on the hop by a few nuns who asked him to put in a good word for Mary McK while he was meeting the Pope. No big deal really. Keeps the religious types happy and the rest of us don’t care anyway.
I agree religion has little place directly in politics, but he is meeting the Pope, how much more religious can you get. So I guess if your talking to the head of a religious group you put in good word for those in your own country.
I would be more concerned if Rudd, as I suspect Abbott would do, based policy on religious doctrine.
I wouldn’t be reading Milne if I were you, no good can come of it. I gave up his nonsense long ago and only ever run across it accidentally.
In fact if you read any of the Murdoch media you should know what to expect from the papers and from certain writers. You don’t actually have to read these papers. Just choose the topic of the day and you already know how they will write it up.
In fact Murdcoh could save a lot on printing costs by just putting out a daily single A4 page saying…’these are the issues of the day, you know how we would present it. Thank You. For token balanced story please imagine what George M would write.’
TP @ 626
Spot on!
ust for fun I wrote a reply to Mile’s article. I publish it here because it probably won’t make the cut over at News:
Yes, I stole that last phrase from a fellow PB’er.
Just listening to a Liberal Party wonk on Sydney ABC Radio:
It’s worse than I thought. Their delusion is terminal.
BB @ 628
Even by your own high standards – it’s a ripper!
Bushfire Bill,
If only you could make the headlines and shopfront posters for a day!
The Libs and MSM have been using the same tactics for decades (centuries?), but wouldn’t you have thought that with the volume and variety of media these days, and the number of ‘investigative journalists’ competing for influence and reputation, that there would be some who would be keen to actually seek out the facts – and disseminate them? Perhaps Marilyn Parker could be considered an exception.
While that’s definitely right, the fact that there are penalties available for any witness who provides false or misleading evidence makes the ’swearing in’ of witnesses unnecessary. So while the use of the words ’sworn evidence’ is annoying and factually incorrect it’s not really too far from the actual situation.
In another area, reading this from Kerry-Anne Walsh today… something seems odd about it:
Given that they don’t poll the popularity of minor party leaders and the Greens are polling subsantially lower on primary votes than the Liberal Party (although above The Nationals) I don’t really know what she’s basing this on. I doubt Malcolm Turnbull is laying awake dreaming of polling a primary figure in the low teens.
Milne once again refers to Grech’s “sworn testimony”. I spoke to the secretary of the Senate Economics Committee this morning and he confirms that no oaths were administered at that meeting, not at any other meeting he can recall. The only legal sanction on committee witnesses is the possibility of being prosecuted for contempt, which to the secretary’s recollection has never happened.
Are we out of touch with reality? i dont think so, as we are the reality.
This is one confused journo echoing his master’s voice, hoping, just hoping, that we are not as mean as we blog.
http://tinyurl.com/poddkv
love to see hacks like Milne and Lewis thrashing around, trying to salvage their tarnished image. If there main defence, their reliance on Grech’s testimony, had any validity at all, they would have accurately reported his hesitancy and uncertainty. He had more qualifications than a graduation ceremony.
and the deadline stuff is bulldust- sending it to Rudd 4pm Friday was designed specifically to not allow time to respond before the first edition
and good to see Hartigan attacking bloggers- we’re getting to them!!!
Can’t understand why the MSM is worrying about a handful of blogs that makes stuff all difference to their business. And by getting into a slanging match with blogs it is only the blogs that will benefit, from increased product awareness. Also engaging the blogs also helps give them legitimacy since they must be important to annoy the big boys.
In effect News Ltd and others getting stuck into the blogs is only providing free advertising. You would think the smartest thing for them to do is ignore blogs.
Clearly they think it does, or will given time
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/inflation-at-sevenyear-low-says-survey-20090706-d9ow.html
Finns (634) – yes I saw that article, and thought it was a typically lazy piece of writing. Day makes these broad statements about blogs without providing a single example – surely when they are all so “highly trained” they might at least pay lip service to this basic principle of writing – don’t “tell” us what people are saying on blogs, “show” us.
Having said all that, I think we here in blogland need to show a little less hubris. Neither the MSM or the blogs have a monopoly on the truth, and indeed I would argue that both work best in relation to the other. The MSM is able to fund investigative journalism, and while they sometimes get things wrong (see utegate), without that work done, we in blogland are just shouting into a vacuum. On the other hand, the MSM needs to be a little less precious and accept the real-time criticism that comes from the bloggers.
Dario I think things would be more ideal if inflation was sitting around the 2% mark, the lower end of the RBA’s target. It would make unemployment a little less of a problem.
A leading inflation indicator sugests inflation is lower than forecast, giving the RBA scope for further rate cuts if required. So if the economy keeps recovering there is no inflation threat; if not they can drop interest rates further till it does recover. Presto, recovery assured! Hard to think of any way Turnbull can talk this one into a negative.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/06/2617677.htm?section=justin
But I’m so confused; I thought inflation and interest rates would be higher under Labor? Surely that can’t be wrong – John Howard told us so himself. And he was a former Treasurer.
Maybe its time for Turnbull to start warning of the dangers of low inflation and interest rates, giving lower incomes to wealthy investors. Its a serious problem if you are trying to buy a new Merc.
Dario 638 Snap!
Sorry I missed your post on the same topic. Very good news. Another point too – it proves that the high inflation scare campaign run by opponents of the stimulus was a load of … Liberal Party press releases.
True, the band is 2-3%, however at the moment I feel happier with it under the band than above it
Job ads fell again this month. Hopefully they bottom out soon.
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25739113-31037,00.html
Latest ABS jobs figures due out on Thursday. Fingers crossed that it shows some good numbers.
Job adds should start to pick up once major projects funded enter the construction/delivery phase. That should start to happen within 3 to 6 months.
At least the rabid right won’t be able to use ‘migrants stealing our jobs’ as a dog whistle this time around. Some good work from George M once again.
http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25738678-15306,00.html
First the government was spending too much on the stimulus, and now they didn’t spend enough? What the???
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25738816-462,00.html
I like the fact that Glen Milne has dragged up the stinking corpses of Burke-gate, Fake-Dawn-gate and Scores-gate in his article today.
If the current beat-up is failing… why not try one of the past failed beat-ups?
MHS – Gorn
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25739128-12377,00.html
It’s interesting that Milne protects himself from any correspondence from bloggers. Just how do you contact him?
Phone Liberal Party Headquarters.
Good one Steve. LOL
Took long enough. He’s been a corpse for ages.
SA Libs, most inept major party in Australia?
SA Libs, most inept major party in Australia?
Only if we close our eyes to the LNP in Queensland.
Curious they don’t rename it Grech-Gate by now. After all, it is clear there was no scandal in the ute or what it was used for. The question of Grech’s role and his dealings with the opposition and/or News Ltd is far less certain and more of a scandal.
Look who’s coming to dinner.
http://www.lnp.org.au/lnp-article/static-content/inaugural-lnp-state-convention-2009/355.html
As in any war truth goes first so it is with News Ltd’s war against the labor Govt, ethics went next, followed by integrity, and any other decent standard that Australians hold sacred. Like WWII no actual declaration was made just preemptive strikes. When I saw Milne recently I should have tripped him up but ignoring him made me feel better.
What were you doing at Tony Abbott’s office William Conroy?
GB651 Re MHS standing down in SA, its a very harsh standard to set, when Liberal opposition leaders are forced to resign for merely misleading parliament with fraudulent documents while failing to make any progress on the policy debate with the government. You would certainly hate for that to be a precedent…
Damn I love sarcasm
Streve 653 – try milneg@theaustralian.com.au
Did BB get his comment piece in today. It was terrific.
Milne & Lewis need to be told that no-one saw Grech sworn in. I watched from the beginning and there was no swearing in. Could it have been done prior to the Chairman opening the hearing.
The Queensland election is still not finalised. The appeal is due to be heard on August 13.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/hundreds-robbed-of-chance-to-vote-lnp-20090706-d9ta.html
665 – ffs, you’d think they lost the election by one seat the way this is going.
BH, the secretary of the committee was phoned this morning.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2009/07/03/reuters-poll-trend-558-442/comment-page-13/#comment-301716
I wonder how much is down to people who have decided to stay put instead of churning jobs like they might have and businesses putting on hold natural expansion. You would think this would pick up once infrastructure projects get under way. However I gather it is the tourist industry that will be hit worst.
Thanks Steve. Then Milne and Lewis need to be asked what they are basing their statements on.
I wonder if the Govt expects a shellacking from the MSM near election time so are considering to get into a war with them now so the public will know how to read the papers later.
It works for the Govt to get into a big fight with News Ltd ad cause them to reveal their colours as it will cause many to ‘filter’ what News Ltd then print.
Hahahahaha. The same sorts of journalistic skills that have served them so well in the past of course! Maybe it’s just that Glen’s been back hard on the bottle again?
Witnesses are not sworn in because it’s unnecessary. They are well aware that the giving of false or misleading evidence is an offence. The use of ’sworn evidence’ is factually incorrect but it still remains that there is the expectation that evidence given before a committee is honestly given. This means that Turnbull would’ve expected the evidence given by the witness to be as truthful as if given under oath.
So these journalists got it wrong? Heaven forbid… they’ve been so reliable until now
TP – I’ve been thinking along those lines. Newsltd does need to be shown up as deliberately partisan (apart from a couple of journos they allow to be less partisan).
The voter knows that Newsltd made a big hash of the fake email so the seed is planted that what they read cannot be gospel. May be a good ploy by Rudd & Gillard.
I think tho that every time something false is written or splurged everywhere then Labor just has to say it is blatantly wrong.
Take the War graves thing this a.m. – heavy rain over there so how on earth could they move long more quickly. A real beat up but the media is running with it everywhere. Did they go to the people actually in charge of the project. Betcha they didn’t – it would have spoilt their beatup.
Lagoon School – heard that the Principal has asked for a portable playground cover so that if the school ever did close the cover could be transported to another school.
Apparently the Principal and school PSA agreed the spend but one parent is complaining. Price ran with it early and hard this a.m. Switched him off – couldn’t be bothered listening to the rant.
Thomas,
I highly doubt that the Government needs to paint News as the conservative antagonist of the MSM – the organisation already champions a proud history of slamming Labor during electoral seasons. In this way, the colours of News are well understood.
The move is likely just retribution for the Tele’s handling of the ute-gate affair, mixed, of course, with the knowledge that the Government has remained extremely popular among voters despite News’ lukewarm response to Rudd and his main policy objectives.
From OzPol Tragic’s article @ 615
Fate my arse, call me cynical but an ABC cheer squad following Turnbull “for some time’ and that time just happens to be the time leading up to and during a fake email scam that was to bring down Rudd sounds a bit suss to me. Hmm just how involved are their ABC in all this? They do employ Newltd scum the likes of Piers and Bolt after all.
What a shame their Australian Story couldn’t go to script, as a scoop on the downfall of Labor and the rising of their Messiah Malcolm
LTEP, of course that’s true. Witnesses are under a legal obligation to tell the truth. But Turnbull is an experienced lawyer and he should know meaning of “sworn testimony” and “under oath”. Neither of those is an accurate description of Grech’s evidence. He keeps saying this because he thinks it will give what Grech said more credibility. “Ooooh he was Under Oath so he must have been telling the truth!” I’m not sure whether News Ltd is copying him or he is copying them. In any case, they’re all wrong.
Any part of the MSM that wishes to be partisan needs to, in order to be effective, be very subtle about it, but that takes a lot of time to have effect, if at all.
Issues and events that polarise often do it down partisan leanings (an assumption) so if a person was leaning to Labor before say, a smear was put into effect, they would probably take the side of Labor on it. Howard knew this type of thing and is why he tried so hard to get into a fight with Rudd and why Rudd avoided it at all costs.
The alternative to subtle is to go down the FakeNews path but the more you do that the more you lose credibility and thus defeat your intention.
While I’m in an ABC bashing mood (such fun) their radio 702 news last night reported that the Opposition were going to keep an eye on Rudd’s world trip to see if the taxpayer were getting value for their money, then they had Julie Bishop repeating the same statement.
What I want to know Julie is what value did the taxpayer get from your’s and Turnbull’s trip to Afghanastan last week?
Understood by those who follow politics, but not by the switched off masses I feel. If this will get more of those folk educated to the News Ltd form then it will insulate the Government to some degree in the future.
Hypocrisy, thy name is Liberal
#640, Hugo, my optometrist told me once that truth, like contact lenses, are in the eyes of the beholder, you see whatever you like to see. Wise man, my opto.
TP – Love your ‘FakeNews’ title. Goes well with ‘FauxNews’ in the US.
Vera – I heard that last night and said the same thing ‘what value from your trip, Julie’.
Turnbull looked miserable the whole time and she was doing her vamping bit to the guys over there.
Dario is spot on – the non-pollie tragics will take the words ‘fake news reporting’ and file them away subconsciously.
I just checked. Amazingly my post to Milne’s blog made it. It is one of many along the same lines. Good on youse, Bloggers!
Another poster here wrote:
This is why these “scandals” were dreamed up earlier on. If the inventors of them didn’t get the immediate hit in the polls they were after, then the consolation prize is being able to list them much later in a litany of supposed “affairs” that serve to reinforce the idea that the object of the campaign is gaffe or scandal-prone, despite the fact that none of the actual incidents amounted to anything in themselves. It seems that in journalistic muck-raking lore, “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” Or, to use another well-known saying, “Where there’s smoke there’s fire.” QED…
Milne and others are still attempting to keep Utegate alive. Some take the direct approach: they’re still poring over factoids, ignoring inconvenient rebuttals and, if necessary, actual evidence (or worse, making it up). The “sworn evidence” furphy is an example of ignoring facts. The fake dummy-up of the text of the email with MS Office lookalike headers to make it more convincing to the casual reader is an example of “making it up.”
But Milne fancies himself as more subtle than that. He is always on about “paradigms” and “themes” when he is interviewed or on Insiders. Glen regards his job as that of the more intellectual journalist. Not for Glen the argey-bargey of directly faked evidence, or misleading graphics (although he will resort to these when there’s nothing else). Glen always goes for the meta-issue, the intellectual angle. Utegate is not about a dodgy deal done between a rich PM who is still so cheap and petty that he wants everything on the nod no matter the source (the “Christian Kerr Hypothesis”), and who destroyed emails and misled Parliament in order to hide the evidence (the “Raving Wingnut On Pies’ Blog Hypothesis”). No, Glen takes the indirect path, and we see articles like this one (and it is not the only article on this thesis that Milne has written in recent days) asserting that Rudd is Kim Il Jong, or Josef Stalin or Hitler and that the SFP is none other than Rudd’s personal Secret Police Force. See? A $5,000 ute morphs into The Clash Of Cultures.
Milne is famous for saying that the original gaffe or misdemeanour is not what he’s after, it’s the cover-up that Mr. Milne is interested in. By taking this line Milne both shows that he is a cut abouve the hack reporters who peddle fakes around as the genuine article and generally get their hands dirty to write a story. It betrays Glen’s wishful striving to align himself with the vaulted Woodward & Bernstein and the Ben Bradley school of journalism, a clear cut above his grubby colleagues wearing out shoe leather at the Daily Telegraph.
One can only come to the conclusion that Milne is so far up himself that he hasn’t got too far to go before his ar$ehole turns up for breakfast. Milne has always fancied himself as a player, an important ikon, almost an institution in Australian journalism, head and shoulders above the braying pack of hyenas that everybody else in News Ltd belongs to. Yet what are his main claims to fame?
He ratted on his patron, Peter Costello in 2006, by breaking the Walletgate story too soon, cruelling his master’s chances of taking over in decent time for the election. I bet that went down well with Peter, Glen. His other big stories – Long Tan, Scores, Brian Burke etc. – did nothing to Rudd except to enhance his popularity. And Glen’s very biggest story was about himself: how he, seven-eighths tanked on Walkley Awards plonk, made an utter and complete fool of himself and the awards ceremony by drunkenly ascending the stage, taking a swing at Stephen Mayne, complete with stained penguin suit, shirt tails hanging out around his girthload of booze and security guards with headsets hauling him struggling off the stage. To illustrate his view of himself, the little Napoleon believed he was of such stature that he went for election as President of the Press Club, and got voted down by his fellow professionals, about 80% of whom are News Ltd journalists.. his own colleagues! You’d think Glen would have received he message by now, loud and clear, wouldn’t you? But no, he persists. Glen Milne is his own best obsession.
The man clearly cannot take it anymore. The disease seems terminal. He writes about ethics and fairness, balance and facts, while at the same time, in the very same article he perpetuates “scandals” that have been either consigned to the “Disproved”, the “Don’t Care” or (worse for Glen) the “Don’t Call Me Glen, I’ll Call You” baskets. I hate to put it this way but Glen’s malady is the classic “Small Man Syndrome”. He is perpetually hard done by. Only Glen can see the truth. Only Glen has the intellect to write the Big Story. Yet he muffs it every time… every time.
Poor bugger, I’d almost feel sorry for him if he wsn’t such a poisoned little dwarf.
Also re the job adds, people should remember that the second last figure only saw unemployment ries because the participation rate rose. If the markets continue to recover and retirees investment incomes improve, that will revert to the previous situation, bringing the number of persons looking for work down.
LP has got some good bits on the media stoush and Milne. Fun reading for us.
I always find PB and Possum much better and more balanced reading than LP, which is mostly rant, IMHO.
You are right Psephos but it is interesting to read that others are getting stuck into Hartigan et al as well. And not before time I say.
Good win for you and the Demons on Saturday – glad they did it for Jim S. Tadhg Kenneally will be upset because Jim was his inspiration for playing AFL.
Yes it was a fine win, though it does raise the question of why they can’t play like that all the time. Stynes is a terrific guy, I met him once, and he was doing great things for the MFC, so it’s all very sad.
Can’t help themselves. It will be seen as more trivial carping but I guess it is something to say when you have nothing to say.
I see Turnbull is in Bunbury campaigning – according to his Twitter Posts:
Wonder if he told the truth Frank. Gillard says he is spouting wrong information on it.
I hope the infrastructure spending is ready to go because by the look of this graph it is going to be needed very soon.
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/07/if-job-ads-count-means-anything.html
It really is quite funny. The editor of the News Ltd has dismissed politics blogs as basically irrelevant but all he’s achieved is to draw attention to sites like PB and the musings of the good folk who post here. It pleases me greatly to know that PB must now be essential reading for the clones at News.Ltd..and the sniggering behind Milne’s back must be increasing in volume.
Two top posts today from you Bill. Keep up the excellent standard mate. Your words are being read and appreciated by many journalists across the political spectrum.
Well here is the story from “their ABC”.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/06/2618033.htm
I don’t suppose anyone speaks Indonesian, or knows anyone who does? I am being driven mad by the Indonesian Election Commission website.
Try your local High School Psephos – might be a source there.
Frank – Julia G answered quite a few questions on the student gap year in QT and explained it fully but still the Libs get the story wrong, intentionally.
Bernard in Crikey today
Did they give any to the ALP I wonder?
BB another great post, as usual. Maybe they should replace Milne with you. Now THAT would make news ltd worth reading!! Cant help but read the sense of panic in his articles- he is becoming less relevant by the day, particularly as he hasnt got friends in govt to feed him stories
… which is the key to News Ltd’s existential fury about Rudd. The Australian used to be called the Government Gazette here – The Court Circular would have been even more apt. They saw themselves as *part* of the government, and in a sense they were. Now they are out in the cold, forced to rummage in rubbish bins like everyone else, and they do not like it.
I wonder what the Essential poll will be this afternoon? If it stays about the same Speers will be telling us that Turnbull has recovered from the faked email affair and is back on track to win the next election, One Term Rudd might even get another run
Hasn’t there also been a noticeable outcry against Murdoch media in the US lately. The liberal media don’t seem as frightened of Murdoch’s power as they used to be or am I imagining that.
His loss of power over govt. would be driving him insane and the ranting will get worse. Only 18 months for them to turn the Lib ship around and the 3 polls last week all saying the same thing must have been an awful shock.
Seeing the orcs lose government in both the US and Aust must have been very annoying for the Dark Lord. But it was more personal for Saruman Mitchell at Isengard (The Australian), since he has to answer to the Dark Lord’s wrath.
i may even bother with Lewis’s justification for his poor journalism if he could answer one question- When did he first learn of the email?? Methinks it wasnt Friday afternoon…
BB mention Milne as a Carl Bernstein wannabe, here is some quotes from Carl Bernstein on journalism.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Carl_Bernstein
Milne can throw an air punch but it can’t connect.
And the other question – did he know that Turnbull and Abetz had spoken with Grech during the week (if that is the case). Who gave him the email.
Psephos – thought I read somewhere that Mitchell is in a spot of bother with the Dark Lord. Perhaps Mitchell isn’t tough enough on Kev lol.
The Dark Lord can’t abide underlings who let themselves be defeated, let alone by inconsequential hobbits like Ruddo and Swanno.
“You have failed me for the last time” (Darth Vader theme: dum-dum-dum, dum-de-dah!)
Vera – OH and I were just talking about Essential poll before your comment. Will be an interesting one – wonder if they polled best Lib leader again (HOckey, Costello, Abbott).
Close win yesterday but I was happy. Going to make the trip to SCG to see the last match to say goodbye to Mickey O – can’t miss that one.
Impressive. Most impressive.
What, that I can mix up LOTR and Star Wars, or that I can hum the Darth Vader theme?
Herr Doktor, happy to assist
Finns, you speak Indonesian?
Thanks so much to the sensationalist media. They desperately wanted swine flu to be a big story, well now they’ve managed to panic the population nicely…
http://www.smh.com.au/national/flu-surge-at-nsw-hospitals-20090706-da21.html
Well, both. Was just giving my favourite Darth quote
Adam, yes, I do. BTw: Doktor is Indonesian.
Steve @ 661 you have cut me to the quick, flabbered my gast in fact, visit “the Mad Monks office” whilst we both might profess to be Christians, I would rather commit adultery than go near there, shame on you. I also am partial to the new term “Ltd News” to define Milne’s employers.
Ltd News
Well, we learn something new every day.
OK, what I am trying to do is navigate this website:
http://www.kpu.go.id/
to find the *detailed* results of the April legislative (DPR) election. I have the national figures and the names of the members elected. I want the results at constituency level. I know they’re in there somewhere, because I found the equivalent figures in 2004. But the site is such a maze, with many broken links, that without being able to read Bahasa I can’t find anything. This is a sample from 2004 of what I’m looking for
http://psephos.adam-carr.net/countries/i/indonesia/indonesia200442.txt
Finns has a babel fish gene?
Daily Tele Watch.
Brilliant front page journalism from Ltd. News, upholder of the Ethical Flame and Torchbearer For Honesty and Relevance:
Thank God for Harto’s Boys.
Adam, i will see what i can do. The website looks like a dog’s breakfast. cheers. If i find it, i will ask William to pass you my email.
To be fair, BB, all newspaper websites seem to put their trash in the shop-window, as it were. The Age is currently leading with “Woman raped on couch” and “Hey, Hey co-creator denies sex assault.”
That’s very hominid of you, Finns. I will try to be less abusive of you in future.
Yes, but if you want to hold your organization up as a bastion of free speech, relevance and truth, you have to take the rough with the smooth.
The DT is the absolute worst in Australia, followed closely by… well… the rest of them.
Only the OO tries to keep its hand clean from trashy sub-celebrity gossip, but instead replaces it with rants like Milne’s today. I see he has stopped publishing the anti-Glen comments and is now only publishing the “Wow Glen. What courage! You tell it like it is” botherers.
Feeds his trumped-up self-importance I s’pose.
Herr Doktor,
Meanwhile the Most Popular at “THeir ABC” are:
That’s Raya Tuhan Doktor to you
It really is quite funny. The editor of the News Ltd has dismissed politics blogs as basically irrelevant but all he’s achieved is to draw attention to sites like PB and the musings of the good folk who post here. It pleases me greatly to know that PB must now be essential reading for the clones at News.Ltd. and the sniggering behind Milne’s back must be increasing in volume.
Two top posts today from you Bill. Keep up the excellent standard mate. Your words are being read and appreciated by many journalists across the political spectrum.
No, that would be Tuan Besar Doktor Adam.
Whatever you say, you get the idea.
Killed by a cricket ball. That’s terrible.
The only things I learned to say in Indonesia were Terimakasi and Salaam Aliyekum, which got me by.
The preferred leader for the Libs is a newie called S Else according to Essential Polls.
Anybody know who this S Else is?
Oh, and “Why did you become a bloody taxi driver if you don’t know your way around Jakarta, you moron!” I said that a lot.
Gag me with a spoon! I just got it!
“Settling theold scores” is Milne’s title. “Scores”… get it? Milne thinks Rudd s after him for “Scoresgate”.
Very likely correct, actually, when you think about it. It was a nothing story embellished with a little nasty innuendo that Rudd had drunkenly interfered with one of the hostesses (which accusation was retracted the morning of its publication, but not before 200,000 copies of the sunday Tele had gone out and not before Milne repeated it – against Cassidy’s specific advice – on Insiders). No wonder Rudd was cranky. I’d have been too.
And then there’s Burkegate…
Essential Research: 59-41.
Psephos @ 710
If you’re going to mix your leitmotivs like that, shouldn’t you add Siegfried’s funeral march: Dah Dumm, Dad Dumm, da da da …usw?
Tony Abbott wanted as Opposition Leader by 7% of voters. Looks like Milne has backed another winner.
BH is right. Turnbull is attempting to use Labor’s movement on youth allowance to stir confusion in the electorate.
sky agenda didnt mention the essential 2PP. dont know why?? interesting that SOMEONE ELSE is now preferred opposition leader behind turnbull and hockey. I think Mr. Else should challenge immediately!!
That was a nasty piece of filth in Milne’s story, and it was a lie apparently emanating from somebody in Downer’s office (which is not surprising since it was Downer’s office that denied rendering Habib for torture in Egypt even though US authorities pretty much confirmed that advices were given that this was happening).
The Liberals most popular choice for leader in the Essential poll is ‘Don’t Know’.
Don’t Know should call for a leadership spill at the next party room meeting.
sorry AHEAD of hockey then turnbull
Nice stats here.
I see the two leading candidates for Oppo Leader are “someone else” and “don’t know.” Sadly, neither of these is willing to run.
*gone*
Why do you think? Hahahahaha
Andrew, A ticket of Don’t Know with Someone Else as deputy looks like a winning combination.
Re ER p7, statements describing both major parties. Not happy reading, eh Libs!. Ouch.
And (p 6) Joe Hockey comes a third to “Someone else” and “Don’t know” in “best person to lead the Opposition”. Oh dear.
Yes Milne seems to have gotten away with the extra bit of filfth he added to the scores story. What a sad sad man
There are known knowns. known unknowns and unknown unknowns.
And then there’s Don’t Know.
Next Party meeting it may be a case of Turnbull pleading, “No! Don’t!”
Yeah, they think they have a good team of leaders but Someone Else & Don’t Know are their preference. Talk about self-delusion.
The Libs should send their 3 wisemen to Higgins asap and beg Cosssssie to come back.
I don’t think you can say Milne added it, I think it was sourced through Downer’s office/department as all these piece of filth are. You need to have a ’source’ even if it is a crepe one. A technicality – all they need to do is hear someone make the allegation and bingo they have a source.
752
Assuming there are 3 wise men in the Liberal party.
#754 – we know two. Mr. D Know and Mr. S Else.
Crikey’s having fun with Ltd News, by selling a T-shirt of the infamous Harto’s headline with the wrong spelling. I love it when they take the piss.
http://www.redbubble.com/people/crikeyshop/t-shirts/3356455-2-reports-of-newpapers-deaths-are-exaggerated?source=cmailer
Tom H,
I wonder if the people’s preferred opposition leaders, Mr Don’t Know and Mr Someone Else, are big swinging dicks or little swinging dicks.
The voters are way ahead of the Liberals at present. Will promise anything to win votes figures are through the roof.
So 52% think the next decent leader of the Opposition isn’t yet in the house.
Re 734,
Don’t know how Indonesian compares to Thai but we are going to Thailand in December. This phrase above translated into Thai sounds like a good one to learn
Not sure whether Milne did get away with it. Rudd’s approval rating went up remember. I don’t think anyone really thought Kevin would be putting a hand up the G-string of a Scores hostess.
What they don’t realise at Ltd News is that they’re asking the voters to abandon a long-held belief (if a week is a long time in politics, then 30 months is an eternity) that Rudd is their man for the times. It’s going to take more than a couple of dodgy utegate-type stories to dislodge them from that belief. In fact the more they read these beat-ups, with the inevitable bursting of the bubble that follows, I think the more annoyed they will become.
The very last thing substantially debated in the Howard Parliament was the Liberal Dirt Unit. The election was announced that very afternoon. I can still remember Jason Koutsoukis getting a gong by Gillard as the journo who exposed the Dirt Unit for what it was: a bunch of manically obsessed, over-confident muckrakers trawling through press clippings, from the protective environs of the inner bunkers of ministerial offices.
Koutsoukis had been the Dirt Unit’s conduit to the outside world. Every Sunday he’d write a column about how they were going to put Rudd on a slab, eviscerate him and feed the guts to the pigs. I used to write to him telling him to lighten up, look outside and take a breath of fresh air: it wasn’t happening like they said it would. Eventually he did (and still owes me a crate of Naxos Citron liquer).
The moral of the story is that the public believes there is a Dirt Unit, and that it’s in full swing over at Ltd News and Lib HQ. Most of the muck is water off a duck’s back, more so since Utegate fell flat on its face.
My only gripe was that Rudd should not have tacitly conceded that resignation was mandatory if the email hadn’t been a fake. This is now accepted, and in my view is wrong. He should have argued the substance while he had the chance, as well as rebutting the technical facts. This mistake could come back to haunt him in the future.
759,
Means Labor will be around a fair few number of years yet
dogma, Maybe Don’t Know and Someone Else are in fact dickless. We know that the former treasurer was knackerless so big dick v small dick might not be a factor.
Problem is: are the Libs politically mature enough to realise this, or are they going to persist in going for broke?
Interesting that the public don’t see the Labor govt as just Rudd.
If Turnbull had the political nous of a gnat he would still be shadow treasurer. He would have been elected leader unopposed by the end of the year.
Dill.
The Labor front bench has some very strong performers, none more so that Julia. Rudd is quite happy to acknowledge her as a possible Labor leader down the track. Voters like that especially as she is neither a big or small swinging dick.
I’m quite surprised by that number actually. Thought it would be much higher.
The problem for the Friends of the Coalition is that if Rudd had go they will still have face a back up team of Gillard and Tanner with Rudd back to maybe Foreign affairs and Swan to Finance.
The current level of pro-Labor hubris is astounding….just remember how much we laughed at you Laborites in 2003 when Crean was leader and nobody would vote for the ALP that 5 years later the tables would turn…
I doubt the Labor Right would leave the leadership to Gillard they’ll fight to keep the Left faction out of the top job. Mind you a move to a Left winger would virtually assure a massive swing to the Coalition.
Labor won not for being left wing but for being as right wing as the Libs.
If that’s what you think you should get with the winning team and vote Labor.
Pity Costello is going otherwise he and Abbott could work Don’t Know & Someone Else into the old “Who’s on first” skit
Or are they in it allready?
The Liberals can do centre-right better than the ALP can do centre.
I’ll stick to the original not the immitation thanks.
I’m miffed that the Hacks will get Higgins but this happens in the ALP too, nevertheless it is a real shame.
A right win as the NSW religious right? Hilarious. But keep cheering yourself up like that, Glen. You’ll need that sense of humour at least to 2013.
BH, I’m not at all confident that we’ll scrape into the top 8 but our boy O’Keefe is looking on the bright side
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/okeefe-hopeful-of-swans-playing-finals-20090706-da6t.html
OzPol if it is anything to you, i dont care for religion personally.
Glen there was a nice old shambles on Brisbane Ten news tonight. Looks like Federal Tories will be able to campaign as Liberal, National or LNP depending on the feeling in their water. Should be a nice convention up here in a fortnight, they are set to thoroughly confuse their Queensland supporters. The way it is shaping up informal might be the big vote winner on the Tory side of Federal politics in Queensland in the next election.
Fumiest news story background image ever!
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3788/liberalcrack2.jpg
Sheer wishful thinking, Glen. Gillard is more popular than any of your front benchers. She’ll be the next Prime Minister.
Oh M’Lady, how can you be so ghastly stupid. It must be the in-breeding.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jul/05/mi6-facebook-sawers-wife-miliband
link the essential poll result to Antonys reps calc and you end up with 6 nats 25 libs MT and shrek gone just leaves Abbott and someone else the ultimate deputy leader I really enjoy playing with AG’s calculator
Glen
The Libs best hope was a one term Govt. They seem to have blown that chance, the next best was to hold their marginal seats and maybe claw a couple back from Labor. They seem to have blown this as well.
If they lose 10 seats at the next election then 2013 is out of the question. So they are looking at 2016 until they can sit on the Treasury benches at least.
As Poss has shown in his spiffyness – in 7 years a lot of the spot-welded will have gone to meet their maker.
The Rabble need to get over “we wuz robbed” and do the hard work to get back into Govt. or they may be looking at five terms in opposition.
Well that is the point really, it took another 4 years to find an electable leader. The Libs are in the same boat. The Libs would have been laughing just as hard when they saw Mr Crean’s poll figures.
I doubt it. The next PM will be at least 10 years younger than Kevin Rudd.
I can forgive Crean a lot after the speech he gave to Bush when the joint-sitting took place.
That took guts.
Bill, Do you have a link to that speech?
That is not to say that Crean was a bad leader or operator, just wasn’t popular with people.
“In his 19 years as an MP, Crean has not spent a single day on the backbench”
So using the ALP Crean years as an analogy, who’s the Coalition’s K Rudd?
That person would be:
a shadow cabinet member
A good media performer
knowledgeable
ambitious
electable, although relatively unknown
Any clues?
No, just my memory.
Crean’s speech was somewhat ignored in the face of Brown’s interjections and the Lib muscle men herding him out of the chamber.
Will try to find it…
789
Apparently it’s someone else or Don’t Know.
Steve @ 777 wrote:
It had to happen, given some Libs didn’t join the LNP. After almost 30 years of 3 corner brawls, Nats v Libs v Lib rats jumping ship to the Nats … And the Lib civil wars that kept the CM in business for years … And City Nats v Country Nats, Boswell v Barnaby, Katter v everyone, esp the Nats …
To think we used to think the ALP’s Old Guard, New Guard, Rear Guard, Mud Guard Era was as bad as party factionalism could get!
At least Lawrie Springborg could keep some party discipline.
Tom Paine @ 783 wrote:
Not really, TP. Malcolm’s are much worse than Crean’s. Qv http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/07/02/how-bad-was-turnbulls-satisfaction-plunge/
Simple…
Greg Hunt or Bruce Billson (although they both need to raise their profiles)
Tom Hawkins, Crean’s speech during bush’s visit is here:
http://www.australianpolitics.com/news/2003/10/03-10-23b.shtml
And Turnbull is still banging on on Youth allowance.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/06/2618341.htm?site=news
steve, Thanks my man. Thanks for reminding me of it BB.
[23/10/2003
Speech by the Leader of the Opposition, Simon Crean
Mr President.
I join most warmly in the Prime Minister's welcome.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/23/1066631550339.html
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=kDyR2za2AwYC&pg=RA2-PA304&lpg=RA2-PA304&dq=simon+crean+speech&source=bl&ots=F9ZmzqThh4&sig=dTQle5MwzW61OcUIB7WMkrpb3gw&hl=en&ei=vbVRSompCJGaMdSx2fUP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10
What is this “gap year” thingo?
I finished school and went to university as did almost everyone I know. What does Turnbull want?
The yoof vote?
The Contiki Crowd who take a year off between finishing Yr 12 and startting Uni – next you’ll see Turnbull campaigning at Schoolies
Kit @ 789
I don’t think the Crean years are a good analogy, because
1. The current Liberal Party is doing worse than Peacock was during Hawke’s first term – and the Hawke-Keating Era spanned 5 terms and 13 years.
2. The Crean years followed two terms in Opposition – and the Howard Government spannes 4 terms and 11 years and 8-9 months.
If the analogy starts from the beginning of Howard’s first term – and there’s no reason why the ALP government shouldn’t last 4-5 terms (I can’t see current LtdNews rags lasting that long in their current form) – you’d have to subtract “shadow cabinet member” and add “and isn’t in parliament yet.”
rua, the gap year thingy is young’uns taking a year to work elsewhere in the world, usually, before beginning tertiary education. Gives them the chance to travel as well. Young bloke I know is doing it this year at the school in Scotland that features as Hogwarts in the Harry Potter films. He works in a junior mentor/tutor/coach role, gets food and lodging and a small weekly stipend.
As a 15 year old, I went straight from high school to work then an apprenticeship. No gap year for me
Thanks for link Vera – luv O’Keefe
Heard Kieran Gilbert interviewing Arbib this arvo on Agenda. After his spiel that Hartigan is Chairman of LtdNews and part Sky -
Gilbert “Is it smart for the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister to take swipes at the largest news organisation in the country”.
Arbit said it was a democracy so they were entitled to have their say then
Gilbert “But as a political organiser is it smart to do this”.
What a dill – gave Arbib the opportunity to say Pm & DPM entitled in a democracy to put their point of view in the same way ltdnews is and we now move on.
An implied threat by Gilbert?
Ah, but Bangkok has quite good mass transit now, the Skytrain and the MRT, so you’re not as dependent on taxis as you are in Jakarta.
Having a gap year allows most of the young’ns to get around Howards draconian attempts to put the cost of Higher ed out of the reach of thw working/middle class. There is no longer the requirement for the parents to support the kids at uni if they don’t the assets test. I.E. Austudy.
Tom.
Rua – Turnbull is on about the change in student allowances if the kids take gap years overseas. There will now be a means test on parents’ income – I think over $240,000.
Apparently kids were moving out of wealthy homes just to get extra allowances while kids of lesser means stayed at home on a lesser allowance because they couldn’t afford to move out.
Will have to look at ALP site to read exact wording but Gillard has many times said there will be no disadvantage to kids who genuinely are entitled to the allowance.
Turnbull is defending a loophole which allows the wealthy to rort the system, which Labor is closing. The Young Libs have whipped up a scare campaign about this and alarmed a lot of country families for no reason. In fact most of them will be better off. It’s a typical contemptible Turnbull stunt.
BH, under Howards educationchoices the means test limit was much lower (around 70k ?). All that Labour has done is increased the limit to a more reasonable amount and removed the loophole of being able to take a gap year to avoid the assets test. Previously kids were taking a gap year just so they could afford an education. A gap year doesn’t necessarily mean an overseas vacation, for many it meant working a woolies for a year…
Tom.
I work in Admin at a Uni so I am quite aware of the problem.
Tom
those unfortunate kids will have Malcopops thrust upon them by a leering middle aged man who says he just wants to be their friend.
Thanks Tom – heard Julia often saying it was not going to make it harder for majority but Libs have still been banging on about it in Parliament and outside.
Tunrbull needs a few scare or dogwhistling things to get him motivated. Heard him just awhile go carrying on about influx of boatpeople due to Labor being too soft on border protection.
I hope it won’t resonate with people the way it did for Howard but I guess the Libs think it worked well once so they can get it going again.
He’s such an annoying little prat. I wonder if the egging he received went to air. I’d like to see that.
They’re not taking a gap year so they can afford an education, they’re doing it so they qualify as “independent” even though they’re still in fact living at home, often with quite wealthy parents. That way they avoid the parental income test. It’s nothing but a rort, and it places an additional burden on lower