Saturday, November 14
The Fremantle Herald reports Gerry Georgatos is forming a new party he proposes to call the “Real Greens”. Such a name would certainly not be permissible under the Commonwealth Electoral Act, but the state’s Electoral Act does not contain a provision equivalent to that prohibiting a name which “a reasonable person would think suggests that a connection or relationship exists between the party and a registered party if that connection or relationship does not in fact exist” (which was designed to disqualify Liberals for Forests and others like it). Georgatos also disputes Lynn MacLaren’s denial last week that she had been behind the preselection of Hsien Harper, saying she had previously admitted this to him.
UPDATE: I’ve been provided with a more in-depth version of the same article, presumably from the Melville or Cockburn version of the Herald.
Sunday, November 8
The Sunday Times reports Georgatos will be directing preferences to Labor:
Labor candidate Peter Tinley’s chances of winning the Willagee state by-election have been boosted, with independent Gerry Georgatos giving preferences to Labor at the November 28 poll. Mr Georgatos, who unsuccessfully sought pre-selection for Willagee for the Greens, said apart from himself, he believed Mr Tinley was the best candidate. He said Greens candidate Hsien Harper was a “good person”, but he believed Mr Tinley was a better candidate. Mr Georgatos denied giving Labor his preferences as payback for not being pre-selected.
Friday, November 6
This week’s Fremantle Herald features a letter from Greens MLC Lynn MacLaren (right) in which she rejects claims the branch meeting that preselected Hsien Harper was stacked, saying the party’s “consensus decision-making” means “branch stacking isn’t possible”. One who begs to differ is Steve Walker, who has told the paper he quit because of “the appalling dishonesty and branch-stacking within the party”. Notwithstanding that he is no longer involved with the party, Walker claims the Willagee preselection was “all the handiwork of Lynn”, whom he labels “the Brian Burke of the Greens”. The paper also corrects its assertion last week that Walker’s gripe had been that he was overlooked for preselection in Fremantle at the expense of Adele Carles – his aspirations had in fact been for the South Metropolitan seat currently occupied by MacLaren. Walker then proceeded to run as an independent, and lodged an above-the-line preference ticket which was punitive with respect to MacLaren personally: while her Greens running mate Scott Ryan was put second, MacLaren was placed behind all major party candidates (since MacLaren was elected anyway, the real impact of his votes was to help elect the Liberals’ Phil Edman ahead of Labor’s Fiona Henderson).
The Herald page linked to above also profiles Christian Democratic Party candidate Henri Chew, and informs us a candidates’ forum will be held at 7:30pm on Wednesday, November 25 (three days before the by-election) at Melville Senior High School’s performing arts hall. There are ads in the paper for Hsien Harper on page one and Peter Tinley on page three, scans of which appear below.
Friday, October 30
The hugely eventful comments thread for this post has made headlines, providing source material for the front page lead story in this weekend’s Fremantle Herald (the Georgatos letter referred to at the end of the scanned article is an edited version of this comment). At issue is the manner in which Hsien Harper was installed as Greens candidate at the expense of Gerry Georgatos, who was preselected earlier in the year when it was felt Alan Carpenter might join Jim McGinty in allowing for a by-election on the same day as the daylight saving referendum in May. Georgatos indicated he was in favour of nominations being reopened when Carpenter did eventually pull the plug, but “party insiders” cited by the Herald say he was “pushed into the decision”. Hsien Harper’s backers got the better of the ensuing preselection meeting, prompting opponents to complain it had been stacked. Georgatos subsequently nominated as an independent, and was promptly forced out of the party.
The sidelining of Georgatos is believed to have occurred largely at the instigation of Lynn MacLaren, member for the corresponding upper house region of South Metropolitan. As the Herald puts it: “About 20 unhappy supporters have since been venting spleens on the Poll Bludger website, with one saying ‘okay, like the others I am a Green – [Lynn] MacLaren and [a] few others knifed him’.” It has been said that Georgatos was felt not to have paid his (metaphorical) party dues; that the campaign might suffer from what one aggrieved comments thread contributor describes as his “outspoken qualities”; and that a candidate with Harper’s union background would in any case be a better bet in a traditional Labor electorate like Willagee.
The dispute also appears to have opened old wounds relating to Adele Carles’s recruitment as candidate for Fremantle at the 2008 election, with some in the party said to have unhappy memories of her as an independent rival to erstwhile upper house MP Jim Scott when he ran in Fremantle in 2005. The nomination of Carles came at the expense of Steve Walker (UPDATE: Or so the Herald reported, but it appears not – see below), described by the Herald as a “founding member” and “loyal warrior for the Greens in various campaigns”. Here too tactical motivations were thought to have been in play, with Carles’s professional background, conservative presentation and young family greatly assisting the party when it sought to win over the Liberal voters who ultimately decided the by-election in her favour (UPDATE 2: The Fremantle Herald confirms it erred in linking Walker to the Fremantle preselection in the next week’s edition – see the entry above).
The ABC’s Peter Kennedy writes about the by-election here, and discusses it here. I’ve also scanned in a full-page Labor ad from the Fremantle Herald – click on the thumbnail to the left for a full view.
UPDATE: Minutes later, Greens convenor Scott Ryan responds:
There are substantial errors of fact in the Herald article that are repeated on your site. Steve Walker did not attempt to pre-select for the State seat of Fremantle in 2008. Adele Carles was preselected unopposed. Steve had already left the party after unsuccessfully nominating for South Metropolitan, choosing to contest that as an independent. Any suggestion that Walker was dumped for Carles is entirely fictitious.
I am not aware of any discomfort over Adele running as an independent in the same election as Jim Scott. She ran on coastal issues and to the best of my memory swapped preferences 2-2. If there are some members who have “unhappy memories” of this, I can of course not rule it out – though it’s nothing I’ve ever heard expressed in years of service to the Fremantle Greens.
As for the remainder of the story, The Greens have not attempted to officially respond to the comments on the site and will not be drawn into debate on that level. Allegations contained within are simply preposterous and delusional.
I have personally maintained communication with Gerry and he maintains that the process was fair and appropriate, and that he was not pushed into re-opening nominations.
I realise that what is said can never be unsaid and perhaps the original posters simply had no idea how damaging their comments would be to Gerry’s campaign and to ours. I am disappointed that the Herald has resorted to cut-and-paste journalism without the fact-checking step in between.
Thursday, October 22
Nominations have closed and the ballot paper order has been drawn, with a modest field of four candidates. Intriguingly, one of the four is Gerry Georgatos, who earlier gave every indication of being relaxed about the re-opening of Greens nominations which ultimately saw him make way for Hsien Harper. The ballot paper order runs Henri Chew (Christian Democratic Party); Peter Tinley (Labor); Hsien Harper (Greens); Gerry Georgatos (Independent).
Wednesday, October 21
The Greens have preselected Hsien Harper, an organiser for the Community and Public Sector Union who ran in Willagee at the 2005 election. Harper was also the party’s candidate for Maylands at last year’s state election, and at the Murdoch by-election earlier in the year.
Sunday, October 18
The Liberals confirmed on Friday they would not be fielding a candidate. The Greens have issued a statement to clarify their reopening of preselection:
The Fremantle-Tangney regional group of The Greens met on Tuesday the 6th of October to discuss opening of nominations for Willagee, selecting a 2-week process for nomination and selection. This process will conclude at a meeting on Tuesday the 20th of October with the selection and announcement of a candidate. Prior to the Fremantle by-election, the Greens chose to not only pre-select a candidate for Fremantle but also for Willagee, expecting a small chance that Alan Carpenter may resign at the same time as Jim McGinty. As this did not occur we elected not to announce the candidate publicly, thinking that it may be seen as an arrogant, provocative or disrespectful move. The candidate selected at the time was Gerry Georgatos. Seven months have passed since the original process, and while there is no question of validity in the previous process, the political landscape has changed somewhat after the victory in Fremantle. Many new members joined in the surge of enthusiasm and the overall chemistry of the party feels a little different. With these issues in mind a proposal was put to the Fremantle-Tangney group to consider re-opening nominations. Gerry himself was joint author of this proposal, stating to the Fremantle Herald (Oct 3) “I feel that I should not hold [the branch] to a decision made seven months ago and would rather ask the members if they want more input. The Greens and I do business differently to the [other] political brands – it’s got to be participatory democracy or there isn’t democracy”. Gerry intends to nominate again as part of the new process.
Tuesday, October 13
Chalpat Sonti of WAtoday reports November 28 has been set by Speaker Grant Woodhams as the date for the by-election (hat tip: Frank Calabrese).
Monday, October 12
The ABC TV news reports, from sources unnamed, that the by-election is believed likely to be held on November 28.
Saturday, October 10
The Fremantle Herald reports Greens state convenor Scott Ryan saying the party will “open up the preselection process again”, despite having preselected “university guild manager Gerry Georgatos” in February when it was thought Carpenter might head for the exit to allow for a by-election on the same day as the daylight saving referendum.
Wednesday, October 7
LATE: Paul Lampathakis of the Sunday Times reports Peter Tinley has been unanimously preselected by Labor’s 16-member administration committee.
EARLY: The ABC reports there are five candidates for Labor preselection: the aforementioned Tinley and Hume, “Labor branch officials” Tony Toledo and Greg Wilton, and Stephen Dawson, former chief-of-staff to Carpenter government Environment Minister David Templeman. Rewi Lyall in comments hears the latter has been endorsed by the party’s Left caucus. Contra the Fremantle Herald, David McEwan is not on the list.
Friday, October 2
The Fremantle Herald reports two further candidates for Labor preselection: Dave Hume, who made a quixotic run against Peter Tagliaferri for the Fremantle preselection and is currently a candidate for Hilton ward in the Fremantle council elections, and David McEwan, an “environmental lawyer involved in the campaign to stop the extension of Roe Highway through the Beeliar wetlands”.
Monday, September 28
Robert Taylor of The West Australian reports Dave Kelly has confirmed he will not be a candidate for preselection. That gives pole position to Peter Tinley, who it so happens lives in Beaconsfield – not in the electorate, but very close to it. Taylor further reports the Greens candidate is expected to be “lawyer and environmental campaigner Graeme McEwan”. CORRECTION: Had the wrong end of the handle here. McEwan is not a Green; Taylor does not say exactly what he is, but I’m presuming he’s a Liberal (although I would have thought it unlikely they would field a candidate).
Sunday, September 27
A report by Paul Lampathakis of the Sunday Times suggests I may have spoken too soon in anointing Dave Kelly as the likely Labor candidate: Peter Tinley, the former SAS officer and Iraq war veteran who unsuccessfully contested Stirling at the 2007 federal election, has confirmed he will nominate, and is the only potential candidate listed in the article. Labor state secretary Simon Mead is quoted saying the preselection will be conducted “within ten days”. The Lampathakis article quotes unnamed Labor figures lambasting Carpenter for not timing his departure to allow for the poll to be held concurrently with the Fremantle by-election and daylight saving referendum on May 16; relatedly, Rebecca Carmody writes in the Sunday Times that Alannah MacTiernan should “do the right thing” and go now so that the Willagee by-election can coincide with one for Armadale.
Friday, September 25
Former WA Premier Alan Carpenter has just announced on the ABC’s Stateline program that he will resign from parliament next Friday. This will initiate a by-election in his safe Labor seat of Willagee, located just down the road from the Poll Bludger’s humble abode in Fremantle. Likely Labor candidate: Dave Kelly, state secretary of the Liquor Hospitality and Miscellaneous Union.
For non-local observers excited by the prospect of a by-election in the seat neighbouring Fremantle, I have assembled a few stats for cold shower purposes. Unfortunately, the census figures are based on boundaries from before the one-vote one-value redistribution – Fremantle’s would still be pretty accurate, but Willagee would have gotten a bit wealthier. “MFY” stands for median family income.
| WILLAGEE | FREMANTLE | |
| ALP 2008 | 51.7% | 38.7% |
| LIB 2008 | 30.9% | 30.2% |
| GRN 2008 | 17.4% | 27.6% |
| ALP 2005 | 47.9% | 43.8% |
| LIB 2005 | 25.1% | 26.8% |
| GRN 2005 | 9.0% | 17.1% |
| Professionals | 17.7% | 29.2% |
| MFY | $1,137 | $1,313 |
| Mortgages | 35.0% | 26.9% |
| Family households | 65.5% | 56.9% |
| Public housing | 33.6% | 19.6% |
612 Comments
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I think this point needs greater emphasis.
It’s blindingly obvious that it makes good tactical sense for the Liberal Party to help the Greens defeat Labor. For every dollar the ALP spends in the inner city is one less dollar they have to spend in the suburbs.
Because the Liberal Party needs no quid pro quo, it makes a nonsense of the assertions of a Liberal-Greens “deal”.
I know for a fact that there were no discussions between the ALP and the Greens that led to the ALP not running in the Mayo by-election. I doubt they happen prior to other by-elections.
Saw the Ch 7 Coverage, a couple of hundred noisy supporters with sound grabs from Sally Talbot Shadow Environment Minister and the endorsed Greens Candidate, yet no sign of George…
Oh and Simon O’Brien saying they will build it come hell or high water.
I’m sure Bird will give us a more thorough report.
According to Perth Now it was 1,000 people and ABC TV have reported a similar number.
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,26288023-2761,00.html
1,000 people is a very big protest for a local issue. Fair chunk of the electorate. But as I understand both The Greens and Labor candidates are opposed to it?
Yep, Labor had dumped the whole plan while in Govt, the Libs have revived it.
It was a bloody big rally, yes. And Gerry was there, he was just hiding. Saw him in conversation with Lynn MacLaren, about what I have no idea.
More on it later – there’s a party in my house at the moment, which I’ll join. (They’ve stolen my chairs so typing is not comfy.) It’s been a strange day.
198.
Adam, you miss my point. My point is that many ALP posters claim a Lib/Green deal. All I’m saying is that they can not then say there is no deal when the ALP dont run.
As for you saying the Greens and ALP should be natural allies, I agree 100%. But I remember you being in favor of the deal that got Steve Fielding in the senate. Does that mean FF are even more a natural ally?
Or have you changed your mind?
NOTE: This comment has been edited to remove references to an anonymous commenter by his real first name – The Management.
Hi BOP (Bird of Paradox),
Yes, you are correct I was at the rally, and for the entire duration of the rally. Of course I would be at the rally as like the many others I have ardently argued against the proposition of the six lane carriage-way extension known as the Roe8.
BOP, during the speeches we stood near each other and noticing you watching me for periods of time I kindly smiled to you, happy for an honest conversation if you were in search of one. As we passed each other on one occasion I said ‘Hi’ to you, you didn’t reply. That’s alright. Though we have crossed paths on several occasions while you were at University several years ago however we have never shared a genuine conversation, other than once when I recollect you suggested an idea to me regarding a tertiary education issue – and which I followed through.
I appreciate you choose to not to like me for reasons of your own which you have described on several occasions in public forums such as this. This is fine, BOP, as I have both a thick skin and that I just plainly accept criticism and in doing so I hope that I learn from what others think while also believing in the fact that the majority of people can ascertain for themselves the underwriting or form and content of a person.
BOP, I find it a strange comment for you to state that I was ‘hiding’. Was I? And from what or whom? I remember that during the speeches I wasn’t too far from you – in the first several rows of people around the podium. I was amongst a number of people I know, most of them Greens supporters and friends, and amongst others from community. We respect and appreciate each other. We work alongside a number of issues and campaigns.
You have made a completely incorrect statement when you claim to have observed me speaking to Lynn Maclaren. Lynn and I did not have an opportunity to talk with each other. We did not share a single word. I can’t actually understand how you made that mistake when you know what Lynn looks like and what I look like. I spoke to a lot of Greens friends and mixed it with people and friends.
From the Greens I spoke at length with the good and kind Fremantle Councillor Andrew Sullivan. I spoke with the Greens state Senator Alison Xamon for quite a while, and whom is a person I value and highly regard. I spoke with a number of members of the Greens from Fremantle-Tangney and from Brand. Hsien and I greeted each other, etc… Hsien and I recently caught up for a long chat.
I spoke to a number of friends from the Labor Party, who like the Greens were there in force. I know quite a few Labor MPs, and some are friends. I spoke for a little while with the always polite and friendly Simon Mead, the General Secretary of the WA Labor Party and I had a brief chat with the kind Peter Tinley. A number of people approached me for chats.
I was asked to speak to the television media however I chose to not use the occasion and its relevance as a platform for my campaign believing that it should be reserved for the likes of Joe and Felicity from the Save the Beeliar crew and not diluted by candidates in the Willagee by-election. Everyone knows what I believe about the Beeliar Wetlands and my views have been published. Example is everything BOP and in my mind I do not believe such events should be used to promote political aspirants. What others do is up to them, I am only responsible for my words and my actions. I am responsible for my example and I do care about my example as this is the greatest legacy I will leave my daughter, who at this time is 9 years of age.
If someday you wish to speak to me I will welcome the conversation and your questions. The one thing everyone will surely agree on is that I am approachable and someone who enjoys a conversation. BOP, in the last week you and I have been at two Save the Beeliar Wetlands events. Next time consider stopping me for a chat and actually finding out who I am and what I am about.
Kindly, Gerry
(Once again so I do not breach any WAEC regulations – Written and Authorised by the Independent Candidate for Willagee, Gerry Georgatos, 9 Arion Avenue, Harrisdale, 6112)
Gerry
I wish you all the best with the election but I should tell you that it is considered poor form to expose someones identity. Bird of Paradox probably used a pseudonym intentionally to keep his (it would now appear) identity private.
Hello Heysen,
I see your point and subsequently I apologise. However I have not included his surname and I may have misspelled his first name! I can’t see how others will know BOP’s real identity from merely his first name alone without knowing his surname though this does not necessarily excuse my use of his first name. Nevertheless, many of his friends and associates openly know that R. is BOP.
It would be quite a beautiful progress if we all went by our real names. I always sign off everything with my real name. I understand your view and will keep it in my mind. We are all always learning!
Kindly, Gerry
(Authorised and Written by Gerry Georgatos, Independent Candidate for Willagee, 9 Arion Avenue, Harrisdale, 6112)
ABC Coverage of Roe 8 Protest.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/10/31/2729728.htm
* This was actually written last night; I forgot to hit ’submit’ though. *
OK, here we go. Speakers included: Sally Talbot (shadow enviro minister) – she relayed a message from Eric Ripper on how Labor continues to oppose Roe 8. Good to see they’ve rediscovered their backbone on this issue. Melissa Parke (federal MHR for Fremantle) brought the message that the Rudd government won’t be funding it (I guess that means through Auslink), and also will forbid transferring federal money for other road projects to be swapped to it. Also had Lynn MacLaren (South Metro MLC), Logan Howlett (mayor of Cockburn) and Phil Jennings (professor at Murdoch uni) speaking against it. There were Liberals invited (including Joe Francis, Jandakot MLA), but they never bothered to give a response to be read out, let alone turn up. Apparently Francis was in Busselton playing tennis with Colin Barnett. Nobody involved in the by-election spoke (everybody except the CDP guy was there), but their presence was mentioned; so was the roadworks on North Lake Rd that got done at such short notice it even confused the bus drivers round there. Very convenient, that. Didn’t stop a heap of people turning up, though.
Also present, apparently: Rachel Siewert, Ken Travers, Fran Logan, Alison Xamon, Chris Tallentire, past and present Freo mayors, Sam Wainwright (Hilton ward’s new socialist on council). About a dozen red Labor shirts from Tinley’s supporters; no Greens shirts anywhere though, the garment of choice was the cockatoo shirt.
Gerry – I’m off to work now so I can’t read properly or respond to your long post now, but I will later tonight.
*is off*
I’m sure I saw one or two Greens shirts in the news footage.
@BOP: I was wearing a Green shirt as were several others that I saw, including Andrew Sullivan who was assisting with holding flags/banners on the stage in front of everyone.
In both this and other matters I really think that you should reassess the accuracy of your comments before posting or refrain from comments altogether until you actually have something constructive to add. You do yourself and this forum no favours with your hasty, generalised and routinely inaccurate contributions.
Bloody hell, I can’t get anything right this weekend can I?
Heath: maybe there were a few Greens shirts, there were 1000 people there… I didn’t see them, and I saw a hundred or so people in the blue ‘Say no to Roe 8′ shirts. Anyway, mea culpa. I was wrong.
Gerry: OK, so it wasn’t you, it was another guy wearing the same colour with a beard. Again, my mistake… I was observing from a distance.
As for my use of the word ‘hiding’? Twas a throwaway jokey remark… you pretty successfully ‘hid’ from the guy who reckoned you weren’t there, eh. The Cons Council guy MC’ing the rally didn’t see you either – I pointed that out to him. (By the way, he’s yet another friend of mine from elsewhere, in what is getting to be a bewilderingly small world lately.)
I did see you, but I wasn’t in the mood for a conversation on the topic at hand – I work a night shift and gave up a morning’s sleep to be down there, so was pretty zonked. I just kept my chatters to non-political people, old flatmates and friends from sunny Coolbellup I haven’t seen in a while. Yep, that includes Hsien… refer to last sentence of preceding paragraph.
As for the name thing, bearing in mind half my social life happens on the internet I’ve grown used to being called by either of my real or net names in either IRL or net worlds. I do prefer to be Bird on here though… especially now it turns out the Herald read this and unblinkingly publish comments (gawd, did they ever fall down with last week’s edition… they’re usually a good paper). My name’s uncommon enough that with it (and a bit of knowledge of where I’ve been lately) I’m probably identifiable, which makes me uncomfortable. Two of the WA regulars on here (plus a recent visitor who I know by another name on another PB) know who I am, and that’s about it. Cheers William for editing that.
Geez, this is an interesting thread. I heard about it from the Herald.
I was at the rally. Have to say there were heaps of Greens there, dozens of Greens shirts not just a few. One of the guys on the stage was wearing one and I reckon there were as many Greens with their shirts as there were Labors with their red Tinley shirts and other with blue shirts with NO TO ROE 8.
There were heaps of politicians. Tinley, Harper and Georgatos were there.
Peter, the soldier will win this election. He is local and is the Labor darling and does the family values stuff. He will one day be a minister.
Hsien is a perennial campaigner and her industrial organiser status helps her a bit. In ten years maybe like the other Greens politicians she will get political guernsey.
Gerry, is the best of the lot and one of the best around. Misunderstood by some me thinks. He is a phenomenal human rights advocate who sticks it to the authority types who don’t do what they should or pushes as hard as to get outcomes. What does this mean? It means he helps people and saves lives. I know he has suffered for it and is often stuck in ugly situations but that is what many respect him for and why he should be in parliament. Me thinks the world is unjust and he will never get there. His record includes Students Without Borders, indigenous health and education, fighting for the poor and disabled, and taking on the authorities. At Murdoch student and staff surveys published earlier in the year returned him in both surveys with over 50% of the votes as the most trusted and respected person on the campus.
I hear he has resigned from Murdoch. There will be champers popping in one section of our glorious uni!
Henri, well he is a solicitor and a Christian. I imagine that Peter and Gerry are Christians and do God’s work too, in maybe different ways. Gerry always wears a crucifix so I guess he is with God and Peter well he marched into Afghanistan with I suppose God on his side! Henri is with the Reverend Fred Nile, so some good things there and most not. He has given his preferences to Peter and then Gerry and zilch to Hsien. If Henri was not in the race and there were only three then Gerry would hold the key to the result!
I hear from Labor friends that polls they have done indicate that Gerry is going to do really well in the election. Labor is keen to bring him to them. They see his record and his brash headstrong save the world attitude and his berating of authority types as perfect and what the voters want.
Great thread people. Long live democracy. Frank A.
Thanks BOP, cheers, Gerry
Just a quick congratulations to all at the Pollbludger on this discussion.
A couple of months ago Christian Kerr wrote that too many blogs are about mutual reinforcement or commentary without much in the way of breaking stories.
Now, this may just be a story on one by-election picked up by a suburban newspaper, but it is still the case that the story broke here first.
I’m not sure that I necessarily agree with Kerr’s derision of blogs like this one, but maybe that’s because I like the to and fro here. Nonetheless, it’s worth noting that the Pollbludger has risen in some small way to the challenge Kerr laid down.
@Rewi. Unfortunately the story that broke here was actually not really a story at all, or at least not an accurate one.
It is unfortunate because, as Gerry Georgatos has pointed out, the issues that affect the people of Willagee and the candidates’ policies have thus far received very little discussion, either here or in the local media. Instead speculation about what may have happened, could have happened or should have happened in relation to Greens preselection have dominated discussion.
It has meant that both Gerry and Hsien Harper now have to deal with this unnecessary distraction rather than focus all of their energy into running their campaign positively. Furthermore, I suggest that Henri Chew and Peter Tinley also have less opportunity to get their messages to the public via the media channels available to them because of the columns and potentially air time given over to this.
I have enjoyed reading Bowe’s Pollbludger blog for over a year now, including the comments. Like you, I would also congratulate Bowe and those contributing comments for participating in a robust “to and fro” discussion of ideas. To be able to discuss politics in a forum like this is a wonderful privilege to have. I certainly wouldn’t suggest that comments be censored and it is certainly not the Pollbludger’s reponsibility to do so.
However the use of blog comments as a source for a news story, let alone as a seed for a story, is to my mind an unacceptable and irresponsible journalistic practice. Firstly, comments are often anonymous and allow people to profess an identity, membership of a group or access to knowledge and facts that are not provable. As evidence for a story, comments are highly unreliable as a factual source. Secondly, there is nothing in the Crikey Code of Conduct that requires posts to have the level of accuracy expected of journalism. There have been examples of this in the past two days, as I (in post 216) and Gerry Georgatos (in post 209) have pointed out. There is also no requirement to correct or retract inaccuracies in this forum (but credit BOP for doing so in post 217). Thirdly, reliance on messageboards and forums is a lazy method of reporting dressed up as investigative journalism. To my mind there is an argument that this kind of reporting violates Codes 1, 3 and 8 of the Australian Journalists Association’s Code of Practice.
There are more important stories waiting to break in this campaign; let’s hope that they do so soon. For the e-thristy, politico-media enthusiasts with access to the net and a lot of time on their hands, including myself, speculation about conflict makes for good reading. It is of no benefit to those in the Willagee electorate however. If our democracy is to have value, surely the focus of the politics should be on the issues that affect them.
Heath, I understand where you’re coming from. I’m sure all political parties and candidates would prefer that speculation about their internal wrangling didn’t make it to the public eye. Regardless of the accuracy of particular allegations, it is clear that the preselection process for the Greens in this instance resulted in some disaffection amongst party members and one of the preselection candidates stepping outside of the party to compete with it for support on the substantive issues that you outline.
As I said, it’s a relatively small story in the scheme of things. However it is a story. How political parties determine who they will endorse for public office is a matter of public interest. Where there is conflict about such endorsements there is a more interesting story.
I take your point that journalists relying on the assertions made by commentators on blogs such as this have an obligation, which moderators of this forum do not, to ensure that the information that they rely upon is accurate. That is unless the mere fact that the comments have been made is story enough. I’m not sure that it is unethical to merely report the public statements made by people purporting to be Greens members or former members. It may be inflammatory, it may be non-constructive, and, yes, lazy, but unethical?
Yet, the Greens take great delight when either the ALP or the Libs dirty laundry re pre-selctions gets a public airing and use it for their own political good.
Methinks there is a bit of double standards going on here.
FC @ 223 ……Well said Frank! I am well and truely sick of hearing the Greens tell us all that they do things differently and better.
I think this whole diatribe clearly demonstrates they are just the same as every other mainstream politcal party out there and in my opinion worse because of the “holier than thou” crap they carry on with.
They play it dirty at every level of politics, from Federal to local P&C, and to believe otherwise is delusional.
Ever heard the saying “glass houses”?!?
Better get used to it.
If you’d been paying attention, it’s the voters that show their confidence in The Greens, over one million in 2007.
Any evidence?
Hi Everyone,
I would like to let you good citizens know that there is a pending Meet the Candidates Forum being organised for hopefully November 18th.
I have met with Labor’s Peter Tinley, now on a few occasions, and Peter is keen to do participate. Peter is quite an articulate person. I suggested the idea to the Greens on a few occasions and obviously they are in favour of this Forum having organised one for the Fremantle by-election, in May, at Notre Dame University. Subsequently, Rob Delves, a former Willagee Candidate, 2008, is shaping the Forum. Hsien is passionate about a number of causes. I shall meet with Henri tomorrow and I will discuss his campaign issues and objectives.
At this time the sponsors of the Forum appear to be: OXFAM, the Melville Chamber of Commerce and the Hilton Precinct Group.
The most probable venue shall be Melville SHS Performing Arts hall which will allow for up to 250 to attend. The date shall more than likely be the 18th, however the 25th is considered a fall back date. I would like to suggest two Meet the Candidate Forums. I already have to the organiser! This is the best opportunity we will have to ensure the issues that matter are actually highlighted.
Obviously it will be in the evening, 7.30pm to 9.00pm.
The format that Rob is considering at this time proposes: 3 minutes each to each Candidate for opening statements. One question to each Candidate from the sponsoring groups. Followed by questions from the audience.
Personally, I think the format is excellent. More importantly it shall be a great opportunity for some of our electorate and the local media to review the capacities, skills and merits of each Candidate.
The Commonwealth Constitution’s intention was for the best Candidate to be elected to represent the views and interests of the constituency/electorate rather than they elect a particular party, in which case in Australia two parties dominate through the coalescing of candidates through the very medium that is a party.
It would be a great opportunity for some of you on this Citizen Media site to turn up in person, especially if you are from the electorate of Willagee, to the Meet the Candidates Forum and ask your important questions on safe climate bills, nuclear energy, a renewable energy future, roads and cycle ways, LNG buses and Light Rail Transport, education, health, child care, subsidies for security, crime prevention, how to improve the criminal justice system, protecting the environment, ensuring a manageable economy equitably inclusive, etc… All of these issues matter to the Willagee constituents. I have now knocked on the doors of some 600 households and I have a fair indication of some of their concerns.
Once having attended and listened to us you can then proceed to comment via the Poll Bludger. I am sure you will enjoy the opportunity to discover us and our views on the issues at hand. This is another step towards participatory democracy.
Gerry Georgatos, Independent Candidate for Willagee
(Authorised and Written by Gerry Georgatos, 9 Arion Avenue, Harrisdale, 6112)
marg @ 225 “any evidence?”….are you kidding me?!?!
maybe you should have a read of the above thread….minus the puce coloured glasses.
Yet, the Greens take great delight when either the ALP or the Libs dirty laundry re pre-selctions gets a public airing and use it for their own political good.
Methinks there is a bit of double standards going on here.
For once, I actually agree with Frank. I call things how I see them – with Labor, and with the Greens – and the way the party has reacted over criticism of this preselection has been disappointing to say the least.
I also think neither the Greens nor Georgatos himself have done themselves any favours here by preaching this collegial crap about the other candidates, especially the CDP candidate. I think if I lived in Willagee I’d be staying home on election day.
You’ll have to do better than that.
This thread is testament to ‘grass roots democracy’ where the Greens members select their candidate, one member one vote.
Strange concept to the LIB/LAB Party, but that’s the future, better get used to it.
When you have any evidence for your allegations let us know.
Many in the LIB/LAB Party have been looking for years but come up way short.
When you’ve got people like Rebecca complaining about how the Greens are handling this, you know that they’ve completely lost the plot over this – and it’s hillarious at your blind devotion to the Greens Marg – if it were an ALP/Lib Person doing this you would be begging for Wiliam to ban them for being partisan hacks.
As I said – smacks of double stgandards.
Oh and I hope Peter Tinley runs hard on this.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/04/2733183.htm
Frank verbaling me says more about you.
Still no evidence.
One of the difficulties with threads such as these, from a “ournalistic”perspective, is that there is no real opportunity to put people on the spot – to ask difficult questions and watch how people respond.
We all have the chance to think about and edit our responses. While we can bring up issues and discuss them, we don’t really have a way to get closer to the truth of any situation.
A “Meet the Candiates Forum” provides some scope for real questioning but there is nothing like a one-on-one journalistic interview.
In the meantime, I love your work William! Your comments and analysis and the blog responses always provide food for thought. This thread is just one example of what blogs do so well.
Read the full thread – it is NOT coming from me, but from so-called Greens supporters.
You don’t like the message so you resort to shooting the messenger.
and that’s your evidence….LOL
Their claims, not mine. At this rate the combined Green vote will fit inside a Tarago with room to spare
Yes Frank, the local Green branch has done something bad.
How many thousands of times have the ALP and Liberals done the same thing? Stabbed candidates in the back, reneged on deals, We see it happening all the time.
But you seem to think it happening one time is evidence of the entire party being corrupt. Despite the fact that with the Greens, state generally does not control local decisions. Neither does Federal.
More to the point, every state has a different way of doing things. So you cant say that something that happens in WA repflects in a good or bad way in any other state.
Once again through your Green coloured glasses you STILL don’t get it – yes it does happen in every Party, but whereas Labor and Liberals dust ourselves off afterwards and carry on,the pious Greens carry on as if it’s a major affornt to democracy, and cry foul that others are cashing in on their woes, tyet salivate when it happens to the others and exploit the situation by running ads criticising them for doing it.
Spare me the Crocodile Tears.
Frank, I’m not a Green. I’m a swinging voter, although I mainly vote ALP. Just pointing out the obvious.
Just because someone defends the Greens doesn’t make them a Green. As I recall, Andrew Bartlett defended them on here fairly often.
I’m still at a loss to understand how a democratic preselection can be spun into anything underhand, wrong, bad, scandalous etc..
Was there branch stacking,…No
Was there weighted voting,…No.
Was their bullying, intimidation, threats,…No.
So what happened was a keenly contested preselection by highly talented Greens, where each Green member of Willagee had one vote.
One-person won, others lost, some cried.
I’m not saying The Greens haven’t or aren’t capable of doing something outrageous, but this isn’t it.
After 30 odd years The Greens have been around how many scandals have there been?
Over to you imbeded Labor PB’s.
Hello Everyone,
UPDATE: The Meet the Candidates Forum will now take place Wednesday, 25th, from 7:30pm to 9pm. The venue is the Melville SHS Performing Arts Hall. Rob Delves of the OXFAM group, and a former Willagee Candidate, has sent out an invitation to ABC journalist Peter Kennedy to MC the event.
I hope that we can fill the Hall and actuate community feeling and involvement.
Once again, this will be a great opportunity for the spot-lighting of important issues and how the Candidates intend to effect remedies, solutions, pathways.
I would like to engage in as many opportunities as possible with the other candidates – and if we organise formal and informal debates, whether at various locations, or online (maybe through Poll Bludger) then I will ensure that I will participate on every occasion. Such advent and facilitation of Citizen Media and community is a leveling progress for ‘Minority/Independent’ Candidates. It allows for others, who do not have a political party brand or significant financial resources to invest in a ‘campaign’. Such advent moves back to ‘Athenian’ Democracy.
Though my view may not be necessarily agreed with and of course I understand your right to your view, the Commonwealth Constitution had intended that the best Candidate shall be elected to represent electorates. This has obviously devolved to political brands and of course in Australia there are two major political brands with an acquired monopoly, the Labor Party and the Coalition, and the Greens are growing as a party brand especially with the global ecological education/cultural waves on the rise.
I look forward to the Meet the Candidates Forum. On this site, Poll Bludger, I am happy to suggest an online discussion of electorate issues by the four Candidates – Maybe William can devise a format and invite all four of us. Thus far I am the only Candidate to facilitate this form of Citizen Media and to step out of traditional paradigms and formalities and wear (his) heart on (his) sleeve.
I would like to make a few comments about the assumptions of what presumably happened at the Greens preselection (20.10.2009) – 1) contextually it does not matter, 2) Hsien got up, 3) the focus should be on the issues, 4) the world is not perfect, and in our own life’s time will never be, 5) we all learn from everything, 6) the world is increasingly a better place, 7) trying to discuss or remedy what may or may have not happened at a preselection meeting during a campaign is a disservice to the electorate’s issues which are greater than any individual – if there is a time for any comment about process or its perceived abuse, that is if there was, then this should be reserved for after the actual campaign, not during it – there are only 22 days left – the people of Willagee and Western Australia matter more, and so do the issues that affect us.
I would like to correct Marg only in so far that it was not the members of Willagee, who number(ed) 36, that provided the understanding. On this occasion (and in March) it was the members of Fremantle-Tangney that arrived at the shared understanding. The membership of Fremantle-Tangney is actually the largest branch membership within the Greens, at the time numbering 194. On the evening of the meeting thereabouts 33 of the 194 were present. There was no vote or ballot. When the decision was delivered upon mine and Hsien’s kind return it was noted that the group believed Hsien would be the best candidate on this occasion. I accept that this was the summary view of the members. It is difficult to ensure the perfect process. I study the propriety of management and the building of anti-corruption processes however at this time and in line with human nature and its complexities we can only work towards the best processes and the risk management, best by education, of any potential abuse of process.
I twice congratulated Hsien and wished the Greens well. Because I believe in who I am, and so do others, I decided to include myself in this election as an Independent.
In the coming weeks expect me to write heavily on the Poll Bludger site specifically on the issues and on why you may wish to consider voting for me to represent you on these issues.
Peace and Thank You, Gerry
(Written and Authorised by Gerry Georgatos, 9 Arion Avenue, Harrisdale, 6112)
Thanks for that Gerry, you sound like a real gentleman.
The best of luck to you.
Gerry, while you may say that the dispute over your preselection loss doesn’t matter, it has revealed your capacity for… let’s say pragmatism when it comes to your purported democratic principles.
You decry the pervasive hold of political party ‘brands’ over the electoral system (’devolved’ is a very polite pejorative term), yet up until less than a month ago you sought endorsement through one of those ‘brands’.
I confess I haven’t taken the time to read through what I understand has been quite prolific written contributions from you on political issues. Perhaps you could provide some examples of such writing while the endorsed Greens candidate for Willagee in which you denounced the grip of political brands, including the Greens, on the representative system in Australia?
Hello Rewi,
I fully appreciate your point.
It did not matter that I was a Greens member or not, I was entitled through the Greens to my views, and I respect they allow you in their Constitution to your view and your right to conscientious objection. This was imperative to the encouragement for me to join them. I will publish on this site (Poll Bludger) some of the pieces that were published in various newspapers, while I was a Green, and while I was their endorsed candidate, where I described and advocated the intentions of the Commonwealth’s Constitution in relation to the election of candidates, and in terms of my arguments where we need to consider both the political philosophies and policies of a party and however that we need to consider primarily the capacities and skills and record of the candidate. In the end policies and structures are always people!
Rewi, I’ll copy and paste some of them no later than next week. I would like to note that in terms of a party political structure in Australia, where two parties dominate, in terms of challenging this effect that the growth of other parties has a positive effect in terms of checks and balances. However, I have always wanted to see the electorates culturally empowered to deliver the best candidate to represent them.
Kind Regards, Gerry
(Written and Authorised by Gerry Georgatos, 9 Arion Avenue, Harrisdale, 6112)
Gerry, may I suggest that, as you’re presently running for a seat in a State parliament, it might be wise to stop going on at length about your understandings of the Commonwealth Constitution?
One might interpret that as, uh, a certain lack of understanding about the political system.
This doesn’t have too much to do with the by-election, but might if Hsien wants to make an issue of it. In last week’s Perth Voice, the Right On John Quigley referred to the Libs’ new police search laws as ‘fascist’. Yeah, I know, Godwin’s law and all that, but with his career he’s the one guy in the parliament who can get away with that. As of this week’s Voice, he’s been gagged by Eric Ripper for stepping outside his remit – he’s not the shadow police minister, Margaret Quirk is. Heard her getting all het up about the new laws and their potential for misuse? Yeah, me neither. Cheers for nothing Ripper.
Quigley turned Mindarie into the only safe Labor seat in the northern sprawl, based presumably on his personal vote… if he quit the ALP and sat as an independent, I reckon he’d be a chance to keep the seat. Now that’d be a sight to see.
Which he did by NOT having Carpenter’s face on his advertising etc and not using stuff from Head Office.
While I don’t like it – I can understand it politically lest those Bovver Boys in Blue aka the WA Police stage the mother of all campaigns against Labor for being “soft on crime” etc. I’ll bet Ripper & Labor were spooked by Mike Dean’s veiled threat at the Police Rally.
Also note that Crazy Colin is docking the pay of the low paid Missos rather than the Police during their dispute ?
That’s no excuse. They’re not going to win the next election by hiding in a corner being scared of a union that really should be affiliated with the Liberals – they could jump through more hoops to please them than any other union, and they’ll still be pilloried for being ’soft on crime’ by the West / Sunday Times because that’s what those papers do. The small target strategy didn’t help Kim Beazley in 2001, and it won’t help Ripper or whoever in 2012. Labor need to grow a pair. Same goes for Willagee in a few weeks… Labor failing to differentiate themselves from the government will give ammo to the Greens.
I know it’s no excuse, but you have to take into account the small town hysteria factor – that I’m afraid is the political reality – look at Rudd and the Asylum Seekers as an example on how difficult it is to get the balance right on this, I’m afraid Laura Norder is the one issue which neuters common sense – though hopefully Ripper’s latest stance in Today’s Paper may be a result of a certain motion being put forward by the Swan Hills Branch, which I proposed which echoed John Quigley’s opposition.
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