The Australian has published its quarterly accumulation of Newspoll results, allowing large-sample breakdowns over state, sex, age and capitals versus non-capitals. Samantha Maiden of The Australian judges the salient feature of the results to be a bounce to Labor in “non-capitals” from 49-51 to 53-47, but a look at the results over time suggests the earlier result was an aberration. In the capitals the score has been in a narrow band from 58-42 to 60-40; currently it is at the high end. A shift to Labor in Queensland from 51-49 to 56-44 looks a little counter-intuitive, and again the previous result looks to have been out of character. Interesting to note the Greens are up three points to 17 per cent among the 18-34 group, but basically stable elsewhere. Labor has dropped four points among 18-34s since the election, while edging up slightly in older cohorts. All told, the figures point to Labor swings of about 2 per cent swing in New South Wales, 5 per cent in Victoria and Queensland, 6 per cent in Western Australia and 7 per cent in South Australia.
Two ageing items I forgot to include in the previous post:
• Way back on December 13, The Sunday Age reported unions appeared to have scuttled a plan to cap corporate donations and double public funding of parties, which had been the subject of negotiations between Labor and Liberal. The plan was to bring Australia roughly in line with Canada and New Zealand by capping donations at $1500 and increasing public funding from $2.20 to $4.25. Significantly, Mark Skulley of the Financial Review reported in October that Labor had conceded to the Liberals a ban on corporations, third parties and associated entities that would extend to union affiliation fee, which had union leaders fearing a Rudd plot to “Blairise” the party. The plan also included an amendment to restrict political advertising by third parties.
• Andrew Fraser of The Australian reported a few weeks ago on a deal in which Hajnal Ban, who was the Nationals candidate for Forde in 2007, would sit as a Liberal if successful in her bid for the new seat of Gold Coast hinterland seat of Wright. All Coalition candidates in Queensland will run under the LNP banner, so a deal has had to be arranged as to which party rooms they will join.
Note also that Ben Raue at The Tally Room has completed 41 out of 150 profiles for his federal election guide, the last addition before a new year hiatus being North Sydney.
1,061 Comments
An astrologer has predicted that turnbull will go his own way in 2010, forging a third party for what it’s worth. Now many may say pfft astrology what a load of malarky….but then we have half the country believing in other less plausible fairy tales such as son of god, messiah, mohammod blah blah blah.
I hope he stays and creats as much hvoc as possible, goes renogade, and continues to lob grenades from the back bench.
centaur, 5% of US population, they believe that they have been abducted by Aliens once.
The unions and the ALP should be separated because their affiliation leads to too much ALP based politicking in the unions and too much union elite sway over the ALP.
Ban the affiliation fee. Double public funding. Introduce free political broadcasts on the commercial channels and SBS.
“All told, the figures point to Labor swings of about 2 per cent swing in New South Wales, 5 per cent in Victoria and Queensland, 6 per cent in Western Australia and 7 per cent in South Australia.”
ad excelent prev post by Aristotle , a notonal gain of 26 seats
This 3 months included much MSN on interst rate rises , libs disunity and agree Aristotle also Assylum seekers with Libs scares on boats , CC Copenhaggen , CC bith Greens opositon & Libs 1/2 deniel & 1/2 suport for CC
So far , no dents in Labor vote I’ve preedicted this dent for 2 years believing 54/46 was best acheivable with 91-93 seats won , but polls keep well abov that at about 58/42
may even do so till electon campaign , but if that way day after electon then then i will be wRONg , and by gees will been happy to been so although with th celebratons then in full VB modes i wont care
I once read somewhere that, in laboratory conditions, scientists had successfully got people to hallucinate about UFO contacts, from the point where the UFO was encountered to being beamed up inside.
Alas, I do not know whether there have been further breakthroughs in this obviously vital piece of scientific research.
Tom
Er…and how exactly are you going to be able to do this?
Ban unionists from being ALP members?
“scientists had successfully got people to hallucinate about UFO contacts, from the point where the UFO was encountered to being BEAMED UP inside.”
beamed up , so we may be close to just beam people away into th never nevers , geez Abbott better not slip over one of those ‘beaming’ thingos Zoomster
Amigo Ronnie, if this not an alien, tell me what is:
http://smellytongues.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/i136-l-tony_abbott_narrowweb__300x400_0.jpg
For those interested in climate science and sustainable energy, here is a list of recent books and a quick review about them at BNC.
http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/12/31/energy-and-climate-books-i-read-in-2009/
Sorry to be mean but several astrologer’s repeatable said Kim Beasley would beat John Howard.
6
No just end the affiliation fees and votes at conferences. Unions are then not useful as tools for the control of the ALP and thus have less ALP career seekers in them and the ALP is controlled by its individual members who then might be a bit more sensible and possibly even less factional.
Tom o dear Tom the ALP are a non event without the Union Movement.
The Unions gave birth to the ALP and whilst they do disagree on many issues but regardless the Unions will always be the ALP’s parents
Except for the WA Branch of the CFMEU – St Bob is more than welcome to Heavy Kevvie and Jousting Joe
Zoomster , th Greens actualy want Union affilatons fees not going to th Labor Party , in tandem with Labors proposal re personal donations limitatons , and hav a tax payer funded electons that my guess would be 250 miullion per electon
Govt is also lookin at corporate donatons
yu remeber Keating had a limit of 1,000 per person , howard increased it to 10,000 per person , meaning wealthy donors individualy donatng per house like dad , mum , all th kids , cousins , th dog , th cats , and th local parrot , all 10,000 each
Labor was created from Unions , and its ties will continue and so they should , they remind th Party executives of th working mans needs , problams , potentialy inadequate wages & living standards so that Labor policy reflects it….which is why tom you ar in error , Labors policy ar sensible , for ordinary Australians
ALL other Partys ar jealous that th “working man” via unions has th affinity for th Labor Party , with justificaton , and
BH , just saw this post
“Ron my boomarang won’t come back
BH But if it does Ron I’m one who hopes it hits them where it hurts most. lol”
Absoluteley BH , agree !!!
Also Gary , just saw your post I did realise you thought that , was doing an inverted jest to reely suport your earlier post which i agree with Talling of ‘tracks’ , it reminds me of our train engine driver PM Ben Chifley , which then reminds me of his great speech about Labor party equity Principals & th “lite on th hill’
Zoomster
Come to think of it, it was two guys and a girl, so could be!
Well unlike Samantha I see several ‘salient features’ in the aggregated Newspoll.
Particularly when the point of comparison is with the ’07 election results.
Taking that as the comparison point then, looking at primaries:
-the COALition is performing worse in every demographic category by lots.
-the ALP is performing slightly better in nearly alll categories, except NSW and males with slight decreases.
-the Greens are performing considerably better in every category, usually by around 3-4% with the standout the doubling of their support in the youngest age group.
The Greens have increased their support in every category by a larger margin than the ALP.
-Looking at 2PP, clearly the COALition have gone backwards and the ALP have increased by 4.3% from 52.7% at the election to 57% Oct-Dec.
Giving the ALP a 70% average 2nd preference flow rate from the Greens then at least half of the ALP 2PP increase comes from the Greens.
And perhaps the most salient figure of all is that this current trend, if it were maintained to the next election, would result in many extra seats for the ALP.
Tom the first and best # @ 3
The unions and the ALP should be separated because their affiliation leads to too much ALP based politicking in the unions and too much union elite sway over the ALP.
What is wrong with politicking in a union? Maybe it is like too much Green politicking within the Environment movement or business politicking within the Libs or National politicking within farmers Groups
One of the important pillars of a democratic system is an engaged citizenry and here we have a silly suggestion that will lessen the opportunity for people to be engaged.
The current system of political funding seems fair to me in that most will get some financial support however those that are able to raise addition funds from the public (because they have a repour with the public) have a chance to do better.
However the question must be asked why would anyone try and limit the involvement of any group of voters in the political process. The answer come to mind is that they perceive some gain for themselves and their cause. However, this does not mean that they are really concerned for the democratic process – just their own advancement.
mb @ 10
Well, in a sense he has, since Kim left the field with his reputation intact, whereas JWH was carted off mortally wounded.
Just a further word on the notional 26 seats.
If achieved at the next election, this would give the ALP, 109 seats, or 73% of the seats. This would be a record (post war).
Assuming all post war parliaments had 150 members, only 2 Govts held the equivalent of more than 100 seats.
Fraser 1975 – 108 seats (72% of the seats) , Fraser 1977 – 104 seats (69% of the seats), Holt came close in 1966 with the equivalent of 99 seats (66% of the seats).
Menzies never cracked the ton equivalent, nor Hawke 1983 (90 seats) nor Howard 1996 (94 seats) either.
Quite remarkable, really.
18
I am talking about people working in organisations (unions) entirely/mainly for the purpose of getting power within a political party (the ALP). It does seem like there are some union officials who would act differently if they were not looking for a career in the ALP. Much of the factionalism in the ALP seems to come from the union elite who control half the votes in conferences.
Finns @ 2
Just shows what a way out there crackpot idea that is. Usually you can take any weird idea you can dream up and find 10% of Americans to agree with it. Often wondered if it is the same 10%.
I love how people who are not actively involved with either the unions or the Labor party feel free to offer advice about how both sets of organisations should be structured.
Nothing when it is about the politics of the union. But too often it is about the politics of the union leaders looking after the party, rather than their rank and file members, or about whichever union official is ready to get their reward as a political appointee somewhere.
Affiliation of unions with the party guarantees such behaviour with the union behaving as an arm of the party, before looking after the interests of its members.
The pressure is for no activist union ‘brush fires’ that might embarrass a Labor government. Many keener union members would rather have the Libs in power because they ‘know their enemy’ and have the freedom to be activist for improvements. Many of the worst outcomes for union members have been engineered under Labor governments with the agreement of tame union leaderships. The infamous ‘Accord’, for example.
I think the Greens should be seperate from conservation and environmental groups. Too much influence on their policies. No environmentalist should be a Green.
Hang on, are there any Green environmentalists?
Especially when those critics are from a political party who cannot elect House of Reps/Lower House on their own merits and under the current rules and want legislative changes so they can get an easier ride.
Can we refer to them as the Greens Party please, certainly the Greens Party does not have the monopoly on environmental wisdom.
“The current system of political funding seems fair to me in that most will get some financial support however those that are able to raise addition funds from the public (because they have a repour with the public) have a chance to do better.”
So your saying that the ALP have a better rapor with workers then anyone else? What about the union members who are members/supporters of the Greens? Their Union is affiliated with a party they dont agree with.
From what you say, that means their union should pay the Greens as well.
There are a lot of people in ALP affiliated unions who do not agree with or belong to the ALP. This should mean that either a proportion of their affiliation fee goes to a party they choose, or no union fees at all.
Of course the Union heavies like Bill Shorten would hate that, it would mean a union would be democratic.
Tell that to St Bob and his motley crew of Acolytes
allegory, I agree. The Green party certainly doesn’t hold all the wisdom on environmental issues. However, they also get blamed by the media and all other parties for the actions of the wider environmental movement.
So either the Green party IS the environment movement(which it isn’t).
Or it no longer gets blamed for the actions of extreme environment groups it has nothing to do with.
Democracy is rule by majority consensus, Dave, not the right of the individual to do his own thing when the majority don’t agree with him.
Convince the majority of your union to back the Greens, and Bobs your uncle.
Until then be democratic.
Are we to no longer call the Liberals the Liberals since the Liberal Party does not have a monopoly on liberalism? Or Labor no longer Labor because the Labor Party does not perform, much less monopolise, labour?
Tom
I remember seeing John Robertson, then head of Unions NSW, address people outside the NSW State Conference in May 2008. He spoke eloquently and passionately. I was most impressed. Some 6 months later he accepts an invitation to come inside the tent. He is appointed to cabinet and presides over the privatisation of Parklea Jail as well as sitting in a cabinet which is attempting to sell off electricity by the back door. It appears that he has sold out his soul to the forces of darkness. All for what?
What I’m saying, Tom, is that there is no practical way of separating the ALP and the unions unless they want to be separated. You could, of course, bring in all sorts of legislation which would have to, by its nature, undermine the principle of ‘freedom of association’.
If unions are not allowed to pay money to the ALP (I would assume therefore that all organisations are also not allowed to donate to parties) what is to stop them making multiple donations on behalf of individual members?
If unions are not allocated a certain number of places in conference (not necessarily something I agree with), what is to stop them ‘stacking’ branches and achieving the same result?
Changes to the relationship of the ALP and its donor organisations are surely their business. Yes, by all means make donations transparent.
Once again, Tom, you seem to be arguing for something not because it’s a good idea but because it will give your preferred party an advantage.
I don’t know if it is still true, but the unions used to be the training ground for Labor politicians.
It taught them all the basic political skills (I leave it to others to enumerate them!) and gave them a springboard for preselection.
The libs start out flat footed on their political learning curve, whereas labor candidates hit the ground running.
With these type of numbers its hard to imagine any real shift.
Interesting to see that poor analysis of the graphs,(In the Aussie) there is still this pathetic attempt to have a ‘Abbott’ cult pumped up. Its just not going to happen, same in Vic, poor old Ted.
Roll on 2010.
They are increasingly apt to call themselves Conservatives. But I think they should be called the Orrible Nasty Liars Party.
Tom the first and best @ # 21
I am talking about people working in organisations (unions) entirely/mainly for the purpose of getting power within a political party (the ALP).
What is wrong with any person taking a particular job so as to advance their career? It happens all the time. It is called gaining experience.
It does seem like there are some union officials who would act differently if they were not looking for a career in the ALP.
This is nothing more than guess work. If the members of a Union are unhappy with any official, they have means of rectifying the situation. Also it is a big assumption to conclude that a Unions best interest is not aligned with that of the ALP.
Much of the factionalism in the ALP seems to come from the union elite who control half the votes in conferences.
What is wrong with factions? It happens in all organisations including all other political parties. A faction is a grouping of people who have similar ideas. The only different between the APL and the other political parties is that the ALP is honest enough to admit that they have groups within the party that don’t always think the same on any particular issue.
It appears that self-interest is the driver for this idea not a desire for the better running of Unions or the ALP.
It’s funny Tom doesn’t mention a certain member of the CFMEU currently facing certain criminal charges in Bali and his membership to the Nationals
I think, William, it’s more that referring to all conservationists as ‘Greens’ blurs the division between the political party and those who support the same principles but aren’t necessarily of it.
And we do talk of ‘labour’ as separate to the ALP and of ‘liberalism’ as separate to the Liberal party.
What we don’t do is equate the actions of liberals with the Liberal party, or the actions of organised labour with the ALP.
I’ve certainly argued for a long time that it is a disadvantage for The Greens to be confused with the greenies.
Dave @ # 28
So your saying that the ALP have a better rapor with workers then anyone else?
It is clear that the amount of money that a political party raises is a measure of the support it has within the community. The more people support a party’s platform/policies the more money it is likely to raise.
If you want “your Union” to donate to someone else you have ample opportunity through the democratic processes of the Union to make it happen.
Until you get the majority of the union to think like you then the democratic will of the Union should be followed.
Don,
Not quite. The AMA and business associations have been a popular recruiting ground for the Libs as has the various University Student Unions and Associations.
I could never understand the Libs strategy to try and destroy the student unions/guilds just to cut of an avenue of political training for Labor and the Greens as it was also a good training ground for their own pollies also.
Coming up through the ranks of the Young Libs and as staffers to existing pollies just doesn’t cut as far as I am concerned.
The robust democratic environment of the Trade Union Movement is a “good” training ground for future politicians as was/is the student unions.
Mate, please set out a list of all members of all Unions who are currently facing criminal charges.
Don’t forget to include Ark Tribe who is facing charges under draconian Industrial Laws which Rudd has left in place.
After we wxamine that list – what are we to conclude? That some members of Unions are facing criminal charges. Just like every other section of society e.g. Victorian ALP MP on drink drivig charges.
Peter Young,
You don’t miss an opportunity do you.
The emphasis was on his “Membership” of the “National Party” and his recent candidature as a Nationals representative for election. “Not” his “union membership!
I also think that the training provided by the unions is a good one for politics.
The Liberals are mostly lawyers: trained to look for evidence to fit their brief, rather than looking at the evidence to reach a position. They’re trained to be adversarial.
Unionists, on the other hand, are trained to negotiate, to sit down and work through problems. Good ones consider the wholistic well being of their members, not just their pay, but their working conditions, safety, etc.
So a unionist approaching a political issue is going to think in terms of negotiation and of good outcomes for people; a lawyer is going to think in terms of the best interest of their client and of winning the case.
Just a reality check for those who think deep and intimate links between the ALP and the trade union movement are a good thing. What percentage of Australian workers belong to a trade union? I think something like 22% or 23%, right? The reality is that the ALP is totally unelectable unless it is heavily supported by non-unionised workers. The reality is that the economy has changed. More people are contractors or otherwise self-employed. Many big companies offer their workforces very good pay and conditions, because it is in their own economic interest to have a stable and contented workforce. Formerly heavily unionised blue-colour occupations like mining, transport and manufacturing have been transformed in recent decades, the old type of blue-colour job has gone. A high proportion of people in the community are hostile to trade unionism.
I’m not sure the ALP would be wise to sever links completely with the trade union movement, I wouldn’t advocate that, but it should be an arms-length relationship. They are different organisations with different objectives, and intimate links between the two would be electoral poison for the ALP.
Finns,
You were mistaken about the Aussie Cricketers dedicating their innings to the murdered Pakistanis. Like good Aussie boys they dedicated their innings total of 127 to the number of seats labor will win in the HOR at the next election.
Scorpio@42:
True, but do you really think they have as much blood and guts on the floor as your average union meeting? I don’t speak from experience here, but I’ve heard stories…
And Kev telling the faction heaviies they could go and get flipped if they thought they were going to get their way smacks of the sort of thing I mean. I suspect that laborites tell it like it is more than their more genteel brethren on the other side of the house.
I’ve never thought of it that way, but you are quite right.
Agreed, but staffers to existing pollies must get a pretty thorough grounding in the art of the possible, and dealing with difficult people.
PC@46:
And how did that pan out in the federal election of 2007?
Don’t be ridiculous.
GG, where the bloody hell is the 2PP for Bingy and Clarky ? He was saved by his undies this afternoon, otherwise it would have been been sayonara with Bingy.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sunday-telegraph/cops-probe-lara-bingle-party-set/story-e6frewt0-1225815531070
Ok – so she is a regular at Lady Lux.
Interesting.
And here come the boatpeople….
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/suspected-asylum-seekers-intercepted/story-e6frfku0-1225815701248
This will be the big issue of 2010. It’s been childs play so far, with only 2700 arriving last year, lets see how Rudd handles 5000+ that will show up this year. Maybe they can start setting up tents ontop of that giant white elephant Christmas Island Detention as they run out of room and excuses for a failed stupid idiotic policy of softening Australia’s border protection.
TTH, you really are a scratched record.
Hi Don. It’s obviously true that Workchoices was a big issue in 2007. The fear that many workers (both unionised and non-unionised) felt, that their pay and conditions would be downgraded, was a huge factor in Rudd’s victory. But the fact remains that trade union members are only a small fragment of the workforce, less than one quarter, and it’s impossible for the ALP to win based on trade union support alone. I believe it’s also the case that many people in the “swing” demographics will be be people who are hostile to trade unions, and close ALP/union links may well alienate such voters.
Cheers
I’m only repeating myself because the lefties and Labor refuse to listen to logic.
I’m hoping the media remind Labor of every boat, every illegal and every “incident” that comes their way this year, because it’s all their making. They wanted the boatpeople to come, thats why the softened the laws.
This is going to be the gift that just keeps on giving. A real headache for Rudd and one that may well be the end of him.
TTH
Please don’t equate lefties with Labor.
Labor is not left. It’s the party of choice of property developers.
Ooops, PY, you’ve posted on the wrong thread (again)
Scarpat – #57
Sorry about that.
Don,
When you think about some of the “difficult” Libs that staffers have to work for (Turnbull comes to mind as does Wilson Tuckey and Bronnie), maybe, but I’m not quite sure how that would equip them for the different forum of Parliament!
I’ve got some experience. Over forty years as a member of three different unions and fifteen years as an employee of two of them!
Never saw any “blood & guts” meetings but occasionally there was vigorous debate when industrial action was proposed. Some of the building unions may have had some more than vigorous debate at times but it would have more than likely been directed at their industrial opponents rather than internally.
I’m not saying it may have happened occasionally but I’m not aware of any. I think it is more in the line of “folk stories” that are bandied about by anti-union forces to try and reinforce the traditional “reds under the beds” / “Unions Boo”, garbage so loved by the conservatives and their fellow travellers!
54
And the Liberals also believed this last election, which is why they ran on the ‘Labor’s front bench are all ex unionists’ line. Spectacularly successful.
Voters are not a sandwich short of a lunch. They understand that Labor is supported by trade unions and the Libs are supported by big business and by unions who pretend that they’re just a bunch of likeminded people who happen to work in the same profession, like the AMA.
If trade unions represent a small proportion of the workforce, ‘professional associations’ and big business support even smaller cohorts.
[TheTruthHurts
Posted Sunday, January 3, 2010 at 8:57 pm | Permalink
And here come the boatpeople….
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/suspected-asylum-seekers-intercepted/story-e6frfku0-1225815701248
Good on ya; I suppose it a plus that someone actually cares. Sorry TTH but I and it would seem like just about every other Australian couldn’t care less. Kevy has it all under control.
ROFL, good one.
TTH.
You operate on the premise that if we kept the same policy on boat people that the Libs had then they would stop comming. Either you are ignornt or very simple minded or both.
Proove it. Do you think that boat would not have shown up if the Libs were in power today. Times have changed. They still kept comming 5000+ in 2007 when your pal Johnny ran the show!
I pity your one eyed redneckness!
Another thing TTH, you are reminding me just how far the Liberal party has fallen since Fraser; why small l Liberals will no longer have anything to do with you bunch of small minded nitwits.
The AMA and big business will support either Labor or Lib depending on their platform. Both support SA Labor. The AMA wrote the SA Labor health policy for a few years under the previous health minister and the developers adore Rann and Foley.
The unions are the same and will support Green, like in the Ark Tribe case, under the right circumstances.
Diog
Yes, I know I’m overgeneralising. I recognise that some trade unions swap affiliations (we had the CFMEU telling locals up here in 2004 to vote for Liberals for Forests, for example) and that some past Presidents of the AMA have been self professed Labor voters.
Parramatta Centrist
You mentioned that the ALP’s links with the Trade Union movement may cost the ALP votes with swing voters, traditionally that may have been the case but now that the Liberal Party have moved quite a distance from its traditionaly base and the ALP have maintained at least a symbollic link with the Trade Union movement, as long as the ALP govern from the centre than that bedtrock relationship is actually a strenght for the ALP can point to it as a tradition.
At present the Liberals have no such tradition to point to for the Howard Governemtn was so un Liberal or Conservative on a great many issues allowing itself to become narrow minded.
I suspect if the ALP did away with the symbollic relationship with the ACTU then overtime the ALP would do as the Liberal Party have done in recent times.
TTH
1. 5000 is 3.3% of the total number of refugees we have accepted in each of the past 6 years (150,000). The UN handles most of them overseas, if the refugees can get to them and be processed, and they arrive by air. Some have false papers and are returned.
2. If there are indeed as many as 5000 boat arrivals in 2010, then about 4,750 of them, on past experience, would prove to be genuine refugees. On the Viking it was 98%
3. The current increase in boat arrivals is mostly the recent pressure from events in Sri Lanka – those fleeing reprisals from their government if they go to the displacement camps – and to a lesser extent trouble at camps in Pakistan near Afghanistan. Plus the UN hasn’t been allowed to get to them for any processing.
4. None of this has anything to do with government policy. There is very little difference between the two policies, escept for the Pacific solution receptacle nations being taken off line.
5. The HRC says both this and the previous governments’ policy on the boat arrivals are discriminatory in many ways, and this seems to me to be correct.
3. But the bottom line is if 5000 arrive by boat in 2010 our total refugee intake will remain at 150,000 for the year, with 96.84% of them arriving by air; and 3.16% by boat.
So, where exactly is the problem?
jv
It’s all those malaria epidemics. Those illegals carry a special type of malaria which is contagious person-to-person.
Haven’t you been reading the latest Journal of Redneck Science?
In #68 the last numbered point should of course be ’6.’
On Ben’s post on North Sydney. I disagree with his conclusion.
I think Joe Hockey is a dead duck!
1. The ALP ran a dud candidate last time- quirky weatherman who made several gaffes and never looked convincing.
2 The electorate has just about the fastest turnover of residents in any seat. They are not stuck in the mud conservatives by any streak of imagination.
3. The type of residents- young, white collar proffessionals mixed with posh old ladies are just the types who would have felt revolted during the sceptics takeover of the LP (NB the swings away from LP in Higgins and Bradfield in the posh booths despite their being no ALP candidate).
I just cant see Joe holding the seat. If I was the ALP I would find a well presented and well credentialled local climate change candidate and run and anti-sceptic campaign. This will be the Bennelong of the 2010 election.
ALP candidates anyone? Genia McCaffery perhaps….
Diogenes
I am still finishing off the Journal of Redneck Racism, which tells me we can’t be sure there aren’t terrorists on these boats either.
AND they’re all foreignors.
Damn spelling.
Big Tone has hit the internet with his new blog and can’t wait until the new NBN gets rolled out.
It appears the comments on his blog are very slow and the new speed of the NBN should assist in him getting quicker posts.
His first reckless manipulation of the events of when Kev was in Townsville for CCabinet does not quite hold water. There are only so many hours in a day and i am quite sure that Kev is well aware of what is happening at JCU.
Truthy may be on his blog under another name, but i bet this is not he.
Was just wondering if anyone (SO) here is posting there under a NDP.Adrian B?
http://community.icontact.com/p/tonyabbott/newsletters/spring07/posts/tony-abbotts-blog-report38
I supose he at least let it on, not like some other blogs when you don’t say the right thing.
JV @ 68 your numbers are a bit off. We accept about 13 000 refugees and asylum seekers each year. Our total yearly immigration intake is about 150 000.
JV, you say that –
So if the affiliated unions are “looking after the party, rather than their rank and file members” why would affiliated unions such as AMWU, RBTU, CFMEU, TWU, FSU, CPSU and ETU run campaigns against Labor Government (State & Federal) policies and decisions – as they have over the last few years? Might it be because they are primarily serving the interests of their members?
Alan Shore
Yes indeed Alan, I was scribbling a bit quickly as I watch ‘John Adams” on SBS. The point remains though as to the relative size of our immigration intake vis-a-vis TTH’s projected boat arrival figure. Doesn’t matter.
PC
Actually, Labor probably won the 2007 election on the back of union support – and not just the Workchoices public campaign but the actual votes of unionists. Probably the most significant thing the anti-Workchoices campaign did was to shift the votes of unionists who don’t usually vote Labor.
jv
I’ve been reading a book “Bury the Chains” about the abolition of slavery in the British Empire. It’s very similar to the climate change debate.
There are arguments about whether Britain should do it before the rest of the world and affect trade, and whether to do it very slowly “as a thousand mile journey starts with a single step” and whether just to stop the slave trade but not emancipate the slaves.
There are the same delaying tactics by the pro-slavery lobby and the continual watering down of the bills which then get dumped anyway by the House of Lords. The public are heavily on side but the politicians don’t do anything.
Eventually a slave revolt in St Dominigue settles the issue for everyone, which I suppose is the equivalent of a series of climate catastrophes.
Look at the years the Pacific Solution was running(2002-2008) dumbo.
It appears quite obvious to all unbiased observers that the harsh Howard laws were very effective in stopping the boats. Absolutely undeniable.
Thats a flat out lie.
Here are the real numbers: http://illegals.weebly.com/
There was only 148 Boatpeople in 2007, hate to spoil on your little parade.
You choos to ignore by other means dumbo – Try airports!
Winston
That’s correct – not many, and not many tough campaigns using everything at their disposal, unless their very existence is being threatend by the party policy. The obvious one there was the electricity sell off proposed in NSW.
If the Libstried the same stuff on things would come to a halt. (Or they would have – not sure these days).
Affiliation makes such action the exception rather than the rule. It has to. My union wasn’t affiliated but had been colonised by the party. The number of times I saw decisions taken that sold out the members in favour of the interests of the party would make your hair stand on end.
Was the old Builders’ Labourers Federation affiliated? If so, it was the only one to genuinely put its members first.
Did you ever read that post with reference to the Hansard???
Ignorance is bliss!
#77
Yeah, but what I can’t get my head around is one daysome leaders can do that, then 6 months later join the parliament and actually overseer a program (admittedly in a different industry) of the same nature they went to barricades against the government.
Now, the argument might be..oh, they were just faithfully acting as advocates for the interests they were representing at the time….but geez…..do these people actually believe in anything other than their own careers?
TTH
The cyanide pill is stitched under you lapel. FIND IT!
JV
I believe it is probably the other way around. Although I accept that some unions are quite ineffectual in promoting their members interests – probably due more to incompetence and lack of resources.
In Victoria, the groups which have put most pressure on the Government and influenced Government policy (and caused them the most embarrassment) are the unions – e.g. teachers, police, nurses – I acknowledge these are not affiliated unions but they are groups you would expect to support Labor.
Wasnt it you Troothy,protecting our god given paradise from swarms of jibberjabbers and associated people “not like us”.
I think you should be back out on patrol,rather than assailing us with your protopauline pap.
Diog, i am not a brain surgeon, so i cant afford to buy books.
i just listen to the freebie podcast:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime_20021017.shtml
TTH
I’m curious.
What practical differences to your life would there be if 5000 people arrived by boat vs the same number arriving through Sydney airport? I can’t see any difference to my life economically or socially so I wonder what it is that bothers you so much. To me it largely boils down to the means of transport used for the journey which is neither here nor there. Isn’t that so?
Diogenes
Yes, I think that’s the same syndrome some have identified as the psychological basis for denial when a large issue challenges people’s sense of security or their preferred world-view.
I heard a descendent of Charles Darwin talking about it on the radio a while ago, and he likened the reaction at the time to Darwin’s theory to the denialism at work in today’s climate debate, as well as to other things.
Maybe Ian Plimer and Andrew Bolt et. al. just need a few sessions with a good counsellor to unravel their interior barriers to the truth.
Slavery was justified by the gob-botherers as an evangelical exercise in bringing the word of god to the ignorant.
We hav 2 anti Unions factons runing here
First one says th Unions hav no much influense over Labor policy
Second one th Unions put labor policy before Union’s intersts policys
Geez m cann’t hav it both ways
Labor won th 2007 electon , DEPITE a Lib campaign highliting th large number of ex Unionists were now Labor Party officals
Yet despite th public knowing this , th people voted Labor to win
Two years later , th people STILL poll suport for Labor , by an increased margin !
Our 3rd greatest PM was an ex Union ofical , bob Hawke
Union affiliaton reminds people Labor is ‘conected’ to Unions who look after working families , and non union peoples who ar working familys also mainly giv there vote to Labour , with good reason , thats where Labor’s policys ar focussed
Individual Unions folow there Agenda for there workers , but because Labors policys ar generaly worker friendly , of couse th Union will suport labor , so th contrary argument is ilogicals
Where union & Govt policy colide , there is usualy a spat , initialy behind closed doors & if unresolved it becomes more public Of couse there will be exceptons to th abov , we ar deeling with people not robots
There ar a few hundred Unions with 00′s Oficials all individuals & of varing quality , and some like in th building trade an embarasment , but thats th ‘price’ of th affiliaton , but th total benefits for both working familys including unionist working familys AND for Labor party exceeds th negatives for both
Winston
You would, I agree. But there are (or used to be in my union period) big tensions and sometimes battles within the unaffiliated public sector unions between the party members in the top positions eying off political jobs and those closer to the rank & file about going soft on action, particularly at critical times for the party.
Such conflict also takes place in affiliated unions, but in many of those the organisers’ jobs are appointments by the union heirarchy rather than elected positions, so the rank & file tend to know less about the decisions that protect the party from embarrassment.
It’s just a leftover form the days when the party and the unions were as one. Weren’t those the days? I think the Accord was the final extinguishing of that old light on the hill.
Ron
Unions=Boo
nuff said
JV
last word on this – I’m off to bed.
But having worked on numerous union campaigns over recent years, I think that many unions have realised that they can’t rely on the traditional support of the Labor Party and need to develop their own agenda and pursue it through public campaigning regardless of whether it offends or embarrasses the party. In this respect unions are evolving in how they operate in the political arena. I suggest your experience is less common today but i don’t doubt i still continues in some unions.
Have returned from a family in law reunion of sorts. Encountered an unintended consequence of the Libs installing of Abbott as leader. An elderly person who is an instinctive supporter of all things conservative (very very conservative), was complaining that she would not vote Lib next election because Abbott is a Catholic. She hates Catholics more than she hates Labor, whom she has never voted for in a voting life going back pre WW2. I reminded her that the last 2 Lib leaders were Catholic but she claimed that they werent because they didn’t make a fuss of it like Abbott. I don’t know how she will get around her quandry.
Winston
I certainly hope you’re correct on that. I wish they’d started that course in the 1980s when the writing was on the wall.
j/v
“I think the Accord was the final extinguishing of that old light on the hill.”
BS , if you were not such an econamic ilerate and big goose , i’d explain why your statement is false but youse th nutty facton of th Greens live in fantasy world , disconected from th reel world
And your completely generalized snips about Unions & Labor ar typical unsported drivel , fact is many Unions persue Agenda’s in conflict with Labor govts when it reflects there member intersts
TheTruthHurty probably applauds people so desperate to get somewhere that they try to bypass a law or two along the way. That sort of thing happens in Tully all the time (?).
It offends my morals and values that this government should treat people who are blatantly abusing a loophole in our immigration system with the red carpet treatment, while the real refugee’s sitting in real refugee camps are let to rot because these people steal their spots.
I often wonder how the left sleep at night knowing this.
HTT, every time you crank out your fake indignation about boat people, I am reminded of John Howard, the Pacific Solution, Unlawful Detention by DIMEA, Unlawful Expulsions by DIMEA, Senator Vanstone, Phillip Ruddock, the SIEVX drownings, the Children Overboard lies, razor wire, children in prison, concentration camps in Sri Lanka, murders by the Taliban, bombings, rapes, torture and executions in Iraq.
I think of people I know who escaped Viet Nam and Cambodia and made it against the odds to this country. I think of my own family, who migrated here with a free pass and were fortunate enough not to have come as refugees.
Every time I hear a so-called Liberal trying to make political capital out of the misfortunes of the desperate, I am reminded of why I longed for the end of the Howard Government. I know I am not alone in this. You may think you are on a winner, but I assure you, the politics of boat people is not a one-way street. If you think I’m wrong, you should reflect on sentiments in WA. Much more than half the people who live here were not born here. We are overwhelmingly a migrant population. Nearly all the asylum seekers arriving by boat are detected off our coast. Many of us know the perils of the crossing to the Kimberley. And where has Rudd made his biggest gains in 2009? Where have the Liberals lost the most support? Western Australia.
The people of WA will not fall for your toxic, politically-motivated jingoism, and nor will the rest of Australia.
Oh, p-lease, spare us this BS.
Troothy
now that you have voiced yours fears, I certainly wont sleep at night.
Yikes!
103 – Well said, briefly.
Spare us the false indignation, HTT. You wouldn’t know what a value was it if hit you on the nose.
This goe’s out to HTT..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1v60FITAfY
Not true at all. They didn’t need to ship them from Africa to the Carribean to do that. It was greed and racism.
The Church (except the C of E who wanted the money) actually helped end slavery. Most of the abolitionists were devout Christians. Wilberforce certainly was.
Also j/v
th latest Polls prove people ar happy with Rudd increasingly over 2007 electon , and given working families KNOW th close assocaton of Labor & Unions , then IF unionists working families thought your nonsense that Unions were failing them & somehow ‘selling’ out to Labor there would be a drop in Labors suport FROM working families but this is not so , and therefore your argument is nonsense
you run circular arguments simply as a Greens snip at anything Labor or Union
As i said neither Unions nor Union oficials ar all perfect , mistakes ar made some incompetent & some value judgemnt , some not as good quality , some ar career minded , some an embarasment like buildng Trade , but to use a minority who do so in any of these Groups as you j/v do as an argument , as a generalities as if its a majority who do so is simply Greens carping
further Unions do and hav confluict with Labor govts for there members intersts , on pay , conditons , safety etc , so your aserton to th contrary is also false what Unions often do is also negotiate with govt , its caled conflict resoluton
generaly Unions do a fine job , and were a key reason for highliting th unfairnes of Workchoises to th public and th polls then prove that
yu seek uptopia , like a 25% ETS or nothing , well its may sound fine in theiopry books but not in th reel world
Dio
You should read about William Walker,who was an early Pres of Nicaragua,and a Southerner.
basically wanted to turn Central America into “southern states” to counter any anti slavery bill.
Greed is the defining characteristic of slavery.
Ron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs
Researching the question of Lara Bingle being at the opening night of Ladylux nitespot, has been difficult. There are no media reports of her being there. However, Tito Media Image number 00424969 ( Grand Opening of LadyLux ) has a woman in a skimpy black number with others and just captioned “Guests”. Looks like a Lara Bingle look-alike.
Then there is the report that Bingle grew up with the Freeman boys in the Sutherland area, and at one stage dated one of them as a teenager.
Ah, mysterys are wonderful.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/john-ibrahim-i-dont-need-it/story-e6freuy9-1225787877278
http://www.titomedia.co.nz/site/show_preview/424969#guests – Ladylux Grand Opening
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/sport/nrl/story/0,26746,26548279-5016380,00.html
Personally I reckon the Freeman boys are much cuter than Michael Clarke, but I guess there is no accounting for taste.
Gus
The Governors of Jamaica etc thought about seceding from Britain and joining the southern US states to avoid having to free their slaves but the US wasn’t in a position to provide a military to quash slave rebellions in the Caribbean.
In the end, it came down to huge amounts of compensation being paid to the slave owners for giving up their “property”.
Where have I heard that before?
TTH, your morals and values, as expressed on this site, would make a Jesuit blush.
Gusface
#112
“Ron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs
thanks Gus , enjoyed that
Dio
The wilberforce story is amazing.
I posted along long time ago,about how slavery existed in some form or another up until the late 60′s in a lot of “undeveloped nations”
The latest UN estimates put slavery in existence in nearly 20 countries.
Some economists would argue that is a gross misrepresentation.
Whether they mean it is overstated or understated depends on their politics
Still brings a tingle 37 years later.
I think some Oz band did it ,but cant remember who?
After the strawbs did it of course
r/Ron
That’s “gooose” to you, remember.
Still, I am happy for you to call me an econamic ilerate .
However, I draw the line at “youse th nutty facton of th Greens .” , because I’m nothing whatsoever to do with The Greens.
Although I am a friend of the natural environment, and I’d like to think it was a friend of mine.
The reasoning that led to 30 years of market deregulation is now officially subject to review against empirical outcomes. And the findings are: markets do not always behave rationally; and further, the markets have behaved irrationally, leading to financial and economic collapse. Funny, we always kind of knew that to be the case.
The corollary is that markets need to be regulated, supervised and checked, both in the broad public interest and in the interests of the markets themselves. The question is should these functions be undertaken by market players or by the State. Since only the State has powers of compulsion and the financial resources needed when things go wrong, the regulation and supervision of markets is very much a State function. This is accepted by all players these days because everyone has a stake in the security and stability of the financial system.
The same should also be true of environmental systems. There is a direct analogy with financial markets: in a system in which the ability to pollute is neither priced nor unregulated, there will be excessive pollution – think of it as environmental speculation – even though this is contrary to the interests of everyone, including the polluters themselves.
If it is good enough to regulate the entirely “artificial constructs” that comprise global financial markets, why is it so hard for people to accept that pollution also needs to be regulated, supervised and checked? Why is it that people are so reluctant to accept and act on the obvious?
Nudge nudge,wink wink.
say no more gvnor
TTH
#102
“It offends my morals and values that this government should treat people who are blatantly abusing a loophole in our immigration system with the red carpet treatment, while the real refugee’s sitting in real refugee camps are let to rot because these people steal their spots.”
goodness gracous , j/v runs circular arguments on unions and you run circular arguments on assylum seekers
Th same criteria by th immigration dept for defining a ‘refugee’ from a boat arriving here applied under both Howard & Rudd , ie ALL assylum seekers deemed to be a Refugee under Howards govt were granted ‘refugee’ status and allowed to come to oz
So IF your point is valid that your morals ar upset that these found/processed to be “refugees” (ex boats) ar pinching spots of people waitin in a q , then you should be also critising th Howard Govt with th SAME alegaton you ar making , and be as “moraly upset”
j/v
Ron
Ron “if you were not such an econamic ilerate and big goose”
j/v “That’s “gooose” to you, remember.
Still, I am happy for you to call me an econamic ilerate .
However, I draw the line at “youse th nutty facton of th Greens .” , because I’m nothing whatsoever to do with The Greens.”
“goose” yes , i should hav typed gooose” re you
my first speling mistake of th year
“am happy for you to call me an econamic ilerate .”
well at least you know 1 of your limitatons
“however, I draw the line at “youse th nutty facton of th Greens .” , because I’m nothing whatsoever to do with The Greens.”
porky , and you remeber i said you had a touch of ‘porky’ as a biger gooose , now you hav confirmed it
your substanse about Unions , well you could not rebut my post #110 exposing your argument flaws against Unions and th Labor Party
Ruawake, give us a sign.
Adam, how’s the tucker at the Kibutz?
Not quite a sign from Rua, but Brigadoon is a burning.
https://internet.fesa.wa.gov.au/alerts/Pages/Alert.aspx?ItemId=259
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs
reposted , would not want any poster to miss out hearing a great Union song
Also rember a fil years ago about US Teamster Union , it had a great Union song , but thats all i remeber , maybe someone does recall
From the OO’s Twitterfeed:
Briefly@103, well said! The lack of compassion in TTH’s repugnant racist dog whistles is a poor reflection on him/her. I have just read your comment to my wife,she found it very moving.
Another attack on free speech – this time in another country.
The people’s voice will never be silenced !!!
http://www.smh.com.au/world/irish-group-thumbs-nose-at-blasphemy-law-20100103-lnf8.html
The 25 quotes the freedom speakers have used to defy the law are listed on the Atheist Ireland website.
http://www.atheist.ie/
I have now accessed the Defamation Act 2009 :-
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a3109.pdf
The relevant section is:-
102 said
So in answer to my question whether it makes any practical difference to your life whether arrivals come through an airport or by sea you appear to answer, No.
So what’s the problem? Oh, your morals and values have been offended? I’m afraid your moral compass is on the blink as demonstrated by your posts on this one issue here for weeks now. Your values mean SFA to anyone but you so no harm to the Nation there either.
All up it looks like you have the problem and no amount of complaining here is going to help. Best you put your tin hat back on and row back out to sea and prepare to turn back any boats that might come in off the Coral Sea.
Now I see the papalists want to enforce copyright on the Pope.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/holy_see_declares_unique_copyright_on_papal_figure
Considering Australia has it’s own Pope, Pope Alice -
http://www.popealice.com/
it must be time for Australia’s Ambassador to the Vatican to stand up for Australian interests and demand that the Vatican keep it’s hands off Australian interests and citizens.
j.v. @ 95
I’ll start off by saying that I find the unions very difficult to work with. They seem reluctant to have anything to do with local campaigns and very condescending (they tend to have a ‘we own you’ attitude towards the ALP).
However:
Well, my experience is that most unions, even affiliated ones, don’t give a stuff about the fortunes of the party. The way they carried on about helping the ALP in 2007 demonstrates this. We were all meant to fall at their feet because they actually helped us campaigning.
Meanwhile, I was trying to draw attention locally to one of the practical consequences of Howard’s industrial relations laws – disabled workers being replaced by non English speaking migrants, on the grounds that the latter were cheaper.
I was told to drop it, as the workplace involved was partly owned by a union. I wouldn’t have, but all sources of information about the workplace and employee conditions also dried up.
So it wasn’t the interests of the ALP at campaign time which were paramount here. (And I do have more than one experience of this kind).
Again, I’m sure this happens, but I can remember plenty of incidents where the unions didn’t care whether or not they were embarrassing the party or not. The tram driver strike, credited with helping bring down Cain, is one.
I can also remember the teachers’ union urging us all to hold out for better pay and conditions and ignore the Minister’s repeated claims that the state couldn’t afford these, followed by the election of the Kennett government who wound everything that had been won in that campaign back (and beyond).
The dishonesty and greed of the union officials in this case ultimately cost their membership more than it gained and (again) had a part in the downfall of the government.
Ah yes, those golden days of the past when politicians were upright and honest, with squeaky clean private lives you could eat your dinner off, and Question Time was used in a meaningful way, and journalists researched their stories properly and only presented the facts, and voters weighed up their options at election time in a rational, selfless manner, casting their vote not for the party but for the best individual, and…
Look, sorry I missed them. Obviously way before my time.
However, it seems it may be a lot of papal bull.
http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/25-12-2009/111400-pope_copyright-0
Cade Metz at The Register says:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/21/vatican_copyright/
PC@54:
I agree, and that’s even supposing that union members vote the way their union would wish. But trade unions still command a lot of cash, and that is always useful to have.
The difference these days is that Labor is getting increasing monetary support from big business. This would have been unthinkable when I first started voting. It was an “us and them” mentality, as Scorpio no doubt would confirm, with his extensive union experience.
I doubt there are many left who matter who are hostile to trade unions. Trade unions are a dead duck, their membership continues to decline, except in isolated cases. The independent teachers union in NSW is a case in point. There it is more a case of union insurance against litigation than unions gaining money and conditions for the members, though improvements in those are always welcome.
Those who might be anti union (people of my vintage, over superannuation/pension age) have already decided which way they are going to vote – and even there, support for Labor is increasing, if I remember correctly. Possibly because the anti union voters are inexorably dropping off the twig, as baby boomers enter that demographic. Poss’s analysis of that, the way that voting intentions are a matter of cohort rather than age was a myth busting insight for me.
Younger voters have no feelings one way or the other towards unions, is my guess, they hardly know they exist.
So a scare campaign based on an anti-union message by the Liberals is more likely to paint the Libs as fighting yesterday’s battles than today’s.
Will the war mongerers ever learn.
Predictions are that Afghanistan will be another war the West loses.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971683.ece
An exchange from a US Senate hearing in September 2009:
From memory, the conclusion was that they needed to send more troops.
Zoomster@140:
As was said in The Princess Bride (1987), I can’t find an earlier reference:
This is not looking good, cut and running. The key question, what is Saudi Arabia going to do what it, especially it is in its backyard. Between Yemen and Somalia, they control the Red Sea exit of the Suez Canal.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6974700.ece
zoomster
[those golden days of the past when politicians were upright and honest,] etc
I agree none of that ever existed – although I haven’t seen “Avatar” yet, maybe there’s some of those wondrous times hidden in there somewhere.
As for the unions, my experience was of there often being a holding back of campaigns and local action to assist the party. There was also an impact on enthusiasm for these things from the leaders as they got closer to their own ambition of political office through the party. I’m not saying it stymied every campaign or local action -of course it didn’t – but I am saying it happened. I was there. And it caused friction with the rank and file when it was obvious to them (it usually isn’t).
But as Winston said things may be changing a bit in some unions (since my own experience) with them acting more alone on the basis of putting their members’ concerns first. A major part of the reason for that I’d say lies in what …
Don says @ 138
and also in the attacks on the unions from Labor that threaten their exstence, like electricity and other privatisation.
As Labor has moved to the right, the role of the party looking after the archetypal battling blue collar worker – union member or no – has diminished like a … well, a dying light on a hill.
That’s why the Libs try to win the blue collars over, and have already shown they can have success at that during Howard’s years, with labels like “Howard’s battlers”.
I hope peeps realise the Gravity of google today!
As you were
The big 2 party’s are taking cheap shots against each other. Just another reason why things need to be done differently and a 3rd force in politics is necessary.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/04/2784787.htm
Troothy won’t like this!
Funny how he/she hasn’t mentioned this article?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/jakarta-bars-abbott-asylum-boat-plan/story-e6frg6nf-1225815742763
And attacking both parties for attacking each other is his solution to good governance in Australia.
Talk about holier-than-thou!
j.v.
are unions inherently left wing? Some of them are – others are to the right of Labor. The White Australia policy was union driven.
Certain unions are agitating fairly heavily for no action on climate change – I would be as inclined to blame unions as much as big business for the smaller than I’d like targets of the CPRS, for example, based on my own experiences trying to get climate change friendly policies through conference.
And, as I’ve already said, the CFMEU instructed unionists at the local mill to vote Liberal for Forests in 2004 (which was weird, given it’s a soft wood mill and would have benefitted from the locking up of the Tassie wilderness). They’ve also given the floor to representatives of right wing parties at some rallies I’ve been to.
My experience has been that of obstructionist unions, offering grudging support to local campaigns (rarely going beyond lip service) but expecting an almost servile ‘jump when we tell you’ response in return.
I once rang up the relevant local union officer to ask why there was a picket line outside one of the local factories (pretty essential information for someone running the local ALP campaign). I was told that I didn’t need to know and that when I did need to know (that is, if they needed my support) they’d tell me.
I gave up, rang the factory and asked to talk to the CEO. He filled me in (very fairly, I thought) on what was going on. Half an hour later, I got an indignant call from the union, asking how I was able to talk to management when they weren’t.
I have lots of examples of that kind from personal experience spanning many campaigns. Maybe it’s different in winnable seats!
Yep, so the third party can take cheap shots at both the others – which is exactly what’s happening in the article you link.
For a clear, objective statistical demonstration that push factors not pull factors overwhelmingly influence asylum seeker numbers…
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/10/asylum-seeker-push-vs-asylum-seeker.html
Slightly off-thread, but I have to say I’m deeply disturbed by the recent murder of an Indian student, and I’m with the Indian government here – we simply aren’t doing enough about this. There are some tjings we need to face up to:
1.There’s clearly deep seated racism behind this violence, and its just childish of us to get defensive about that
2. Victoria is clearly worse than other states, and I suspect thats because you never see the police anywhere. I know I’m from QLD, (and therefore used to an equally inappropriate Franco’s Spain type model) – but Victoria must have the the most invisible police force in the western world. They’re just never on the beat. There must be a middle way.
3. WTF are is VICPol doing about the rash of people with knives? Its just unacceptable.
4. There needs to be some grassroots school/ community interventions about this, beyond policing responses.
5. Australia need to wake up about this. Its ugly as sin, it IS about racism in our community, and our inaction IS making us look like 19th century throwbacks. We can’t just pretend it isn’t happening.
Interesting internet poll in SA/Murdoch Sunday Mail yesterday. 2400 involved and most of the answers look about what you would expect. But on “How would you like to see SA’s population change”
Decrease 20.7%
Increase through natural growth 60.1%
Increase through immigration 13.3%
Stay the same 5.9%
Considering that 2/3 of current population increase comes from immigration its not a big vote for the Big Australia. Course the questions don’t allow an option of natural growth plus immigration and don’t deal with scale of immigration so its a bit limited.
Son sent me this
Blast from the past! (From up Troothy’s way) Certainly not ours (we had several). They were maltreated in many ways, our kindest on a dartboard!
Get your “Joh for P.M.” sticker on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=150401994137&Category=208
PS: The “Joh for Canbrra” campaign was my first encounter with push polling; but news of it was leaked (reputedly by antiJoh Nats & disgruntled Libs) and telephone lines went into meltdown. It was a classic. Many of the questions involved identifying a problem, then preferencing the ability of specified political identities’ ability to solve nominated problems – the answers included Howard, Elliott, Hawke, ?Peacock (I’ve forgotten some) or sigh, use adoring voice Joh.
Every ALP member, unionist, disgruntled Lib (almost all of them), can’t-stand-Joh person I knew who was polled answered “Joh”. Although I can’t find a reference, one poll’s (probably the “Push poll”), results published in either the CM or Oz, returned enough of a pro-Joh vote to turn the Campaign into “Joh for PM” In one blow, the campaign effectively scuttled Howard & the Libs (Elect, 11 July 87) and led to Joh’s downfall (Dec 87)
Branyard is back!!!
Ranting away on Slynews as per usual and making a fool of himself by making a public announcement on the engagement of the Slynews reporter, Ashleigh 20something. Obviously, she didnt want that to happen and looked decidedly unimpressed with Barnyard’s antics.
lefty e
I think we should wait until the perp(s) is/are caught before deciding if the murder was race-related.
I hope like hell it wasn’t.
Taking the life of anyone is a terrible act. Speculation over the motivation for the murder of the young Indian in Melbourne at this stage is just that speculation.
It may or may not be driven by racism. There is no clear evidence available way at this stage. No one other than the person who committed the murder knows what the motivation was. Perhaps even that person doesn’t know. How would we assess the situation if it proves (hypothetically) that the person who comitted the murder was mentally incompetent to plead but spouted racist ideology?
Proposing public policy change on a newspaper report and a feeling of angst and guilt with no substantial evidence to underpin the diagnosis doesn’t seem to be a helpful way to respond.
Indian newspapers can call for a Government response all they like – its not clear what specific actions would give them comfort and whether any proposed actions would make anyone in particular in Australia any safer.
lefty e
from http://proceedings.com.au/isana2009/PDF/paper_Spolc.pdf
The paper linked to looks at the statistics available and concludes that the perception that there are increased attacks on Indian students is partly due to a rise in the number of Indian students and partly a media beat up (that is, attacks on Indian students – and Australian students – were happening at the same rate previously as they are now but were not being reported in the media).
Oh Great, John Bowler and WA LIberal MP Michael Suutherland want to ban Electioneering at Polling Booths.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/04/2784801.htm?site=news
I agree with that proposition of no electioneering at poling booths. There is too much hassling goes on at poling booths.
Rubbish – no one is compelled to accept a How To Vote Card, but at least be polite to the booth worker when doing so – and in my experience, it is the Liberal and other booth workers who are bombastic.
Diog, we are not the centre of the Universe. India has already decided it was raced related murder, and more importantly it was Indian-related murder.
I can see how getting rid of election day activities would be very attractive to every one except Labor.
Or it’s code for we cannot compete with the amount of Booth Workers the ALP can Comandeer
Finns
By this do you mean ‘it’s too late, the perception is out there’ or are you suggesting that the Indian government is better able to assess the motivations for the killing than the Victorian police?
And yet more and more and come.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/04/2785093.htm?section=justin
109 Boatpeople in 4 Days.
365 Days in a Year / 4 Days = 9946 Boatpeople predicted total for 2010.
Gee, wonder what the punters will think about that.
Indonesia can’t tell Australia what to do in OUR waters dumbass.
Of course they don’t want these boatpeople, nobody does except for the soft touch left here in Australia.
If we tow the boatpeople back out into International waters, there is stuff all Indonesia can do about it
TTH @165 said,
They’ve already told us, but you’re not listening.
I posted this yesterday,
TTH @ 165
Probably not as much as yourself ?
Yep poll after poll after poll says a majority want tougher laws and to turn back the boats.
Zoom, what do you think? Samples from Google News:
I agree. If there is no advertising on election day, I can’t see why these people can shove their crap in my face.
from TTH:
“Yep poll after poll after poll says a majority want tougher laws and to turn back the boats.”
Funny, i thought there had actually been poll after poll that says a majority want to vote for the party that is handling things at the moment, and not the dog whistling lowlife scumsucking bottom feeders who are claiming that they will tow the boats back into international waters??
Actually there is PRINT Advertising on election Day – but of course this is another tactic by the Libs to deny the vote to anyone but those people who fall for their crap.
Hi Bludgers, I’m back.
I hope you all ate too much, drank less than I did.
I see things are very much the same, excepting the Pope telling Tony to accept boaties.
The only revolting news from my Canberra relatives (who have mercifully left) is that Chrissy Pyne runs around Lake B-G in a T-shirt with his name on it. Maybe he does not know who he is.
Belated Happy New Year.
So th sum total of th Unions discussion being put is :
j/v: Unions sell out there members intersts in favor of protectin Labors intersts
Tom: Unions (there members intersts) hav too much influense over Labors intersts policy
j/v’s arguement is made without any evidense provided , just “his” opinion , doesn’t cut
His argument is false Unions ar not some monlithic one porganisaton but diferent organizatons representin diferent workers intersts with individuals running them
Histary shows numerous diferent Unions hav conflicted with Labor Govts to advanse there members intersts , which is what there job is
Examples of such Unions taking on Labor ar th teachers union , tram drivers union , cfmu , etu , police associaton , th twu , nurses federation , train union , & awu
whereas j/v supplies no substantaton at all
further , often there is hostility or lack of co operaton , and apart from th workchoises electon Unions in total hav NOT in past , in COMPARISON to 2007 , clearly hav not put there full resourses into electing labor govts anyway , but generaly suport Labor seeing there general policy objectives ar for th same constituacy , ie working families
- such conflict as listed above IS th “price” paid for th “links” between Labor and Unions , there will be and ar conflicts between Labor policy & an indiv Unions persepton of its members needs , but th overall benefits for both exceed th “price”
But Unions ar no perfect , some good , some average , a minority bad , some very competetant , some less competa Making generalities is like saying all emploers ar bad
Tom’s argument:
was reverse of j/v Unions had too much influense over Labor policy
Tom however seemed more jealous of th financial suporty Labor gets from Unions via affiliaton fees vs his Greens Party , so his post was reely Green’s self centred
Why do Unions hav somer influnse over Labor policy , yes , and th reasons is obvous 2 folds
First Labors core policys ar for working familys unionised and non unionised ones & th disadvantaged That is a fact Whereas each individual Union is representing unionized working familys , so of couse there is linkage and general common policy ideas of Labor to Unions Second Labor was created from a Union base so its execitive was all Union based As th Labor party has widened representaton from other groups in community th Union representaton is down at conferense to about 50% , so obvous it will and should influense Labor overall policy
Its whats Labor is mainly about (apart from th disadvantaged & ‘average’ retirees) ie about working familys excepyt that in modern era working familys extend into a wider “Grouping” as ‘traes’ hav dropped BUT what alot of Unions usualy push for is to th benefit of ALL working familys anyway ! eg maternity leave , holiday pay , supa , sickness benefits , wrongful dismissal etc
Does Kevin rudd get bullied by Unions ? no , he took on one of most powerful WA union guys & at risk in an electon campaign , and demanded him out Earlier a powerful vic electrical guy got extreme and he demanded him out of labor also
In fact Kevin rudd has (corectly) publicly stated that Unions do hav a legit role in Labor influense based both on th histary & th peoples they represent being akin to Labor , BUT that Labor will decide Labor policy , that conferense decisons “will be taken account of” , and Labor will goivern in th Natonal interst & in ordinary peoples interst So th argument Unions hav too much influense is also in error , making both anti Unions views wRONg I agree with Kevin rudd’s above view , hense this post
The BBC is under threat from ….?
If you guessed from Murdoch & Tories, esp leader leader David Cameron:
The BBC fires back: report argues that corporation generates £7.6bn for Britain
Shut down the independent voices and those who threaten Rupert’s desire to bury all on-line news behind paywalls!
I’m looking forward to the Brits’ mass “Save the BBC” campaign.
And to you too, RU! #174.
Did anyone give you waterwings for Christmas?
I guess a certain Tully Resident will be rubbing his hands with glee:
I’m still none the wiser. Clearly “the perception is out there”, but it remains unclear if you are suggesting the Indian government is better able to assess the motivations for the killing than the Victorian police.
Bilbo, the perception has been set in stone especially with the Indian public and media.
Not too sure where this red herring comes from, although i do like to chomp on the red herrings.
Love swimming in liquid sunshine.
Finns @ 180
the wording of your original post is ambiguous, as I tried to point out.
I wasn’t throwing you a red herring (I know what you dolphins do with them), but trying to clarify what you meant.
I’m not sure what we can do about tackling a perception which, from the stats, seems to be just that.
There is no evidence that Indian students are more prone to attack than anybody else in Victoria.
If this is so, then there’s not much that can be done about it.
#158
I have been told state politics is not to be discussed in this thread Frank. Go to a WA thread .
By whom, PY?
He’s referring to his obsession with the NSW Govt where others were suggesting he post it to the recent NSW RThread – my post was aimed at a broader than WA Audience due to possible Federal Implications if suggested by the Federal Libs.
Finns is right about the perception and that’s the main thing in the end.
We shouldn’t be surprised as we’ve seen the exact same thing from the other side when the local media piles on to a simplistic story about Aussies overseas, or the Yanks complaining about the Italians jailing their innocent girl etc etc.
Has Scott (I’m tough) Morrison been sold a brown sandwich by Tony? What can he do?Whine?
The only people worried about “boats” already vote Liberal. Can he continue to pop up and spout the same crud? Poor sod, reminds me of Joe Hockey trying to sell a turd.
To clarify, federal matters should not be discussed on state threads, because there is always a more appropriate thread nearby. Such is not the case for state threads – it would be impractical for Frank to go to a WA thread, because there hasn’t been one for several months (and in any case he’s quite right to suggest this is not a purely WA matter). However, if there is a state thread currently in progress, it would obviously be best if people wishing to discuss the politics of that state did so there.
Two Words – Schappelle Corby
And this person:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/6640453/mcjannett-claims-bali-drugs-set-up/
William
Not by you. And indeed by no-one with any authority or cred. I ignore them anyway.
However, I as just reminding Frank of what has been said.
Newspoll 13-15 January 2006 Coalition 45% Labor 37%
Newspoll 27-29 January 2006 Coalition 44% Labor 36%
Newspoll 10-12 February 2006 Coalition 41% Labor 39%
Newspoll 24-26 February 2006 Coalition 41% Labor 39%
Newspoll 10-12 March 2006 Coalition 45% Labor 35%
NOW ABOUT INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT’S CHANGES TO AUSTRALIA’S INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS SYSTEM, WHICH IT HAS CALLED WORKCHOICES, WERE RECENTLY INTRODUCED. OVERALL, DO YOU THINK THESE CHANGES TO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS WILL BE GOOD, OR BAD FOR THE AUSTRALIAN ECONOMY? IF GOOD DO YOU THINK THEY WILL BE VERY GOOD OR SOMEWHAT GOOD? IF BAD DO YOU THINK THEY WILL BE VERY BAD OR SOMEWHAT BAD?
TOTAL GOOD
April 2006 33%
TOTAL BAD
April 2006 48%
You Labor hacks shouldn’t get too cocky, remember Labor works for us, not the other way round.
Hey Truthy its 2010 if you missed it.
Yet he’s hankering for the good old days – and of course when Jethro Tull were HUGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCyC1dZiN8
Hmmmmmm, I seem to remember after 911, all Muslim looking person was kinda “the terrorist”. Just ask Dino Jones. I mean “the terrorist” was playing our game cricket for goodness sake.
Zoom, No prob. I have learned to be ambiguous from the master himself, Diog
William . #188 . Noted.
Frank – #185 . All my posts have federal implications. The swing to Labor in NSW is 1%. Nationwide it is 4%. Yet federal policies are the same across the nation. Either NSW is the new Qld or something is horribly wrong in NSW. However, once again note #188.
Yep and we have yet another political party ignoring the silent majority.
Better be careful, never take your current position for granted you may get burnt. The lefties are a minority in this country, so Rudd should ignore them and listen to the silent majority on this issue, we are a democracy after all.
I’m not sure how anyone could listen to a silent majority…
TTH, it is 2010, 2006 was along time ago.
The open question; are you smart enough to understand what the “two party preferred” result means, and if you understood what it meant would you stop banging on about boat people?
Rua:
Good to see you back Rua.
Give ‘em heaps.
No we have a Govt. ignoring a vocal minority. Times will change the Libs will form Govt. again, history shows it takes about a decade – get used to it.
That’s why we have polls, it would seem your silent majority is a majority; in fast it isn’t that bid a minority.
Sorry that should be “not a majority”
fredn, that was the only mistake you spotted?
No; time to go to bed.
The Libs need to convince people that they made a mistake in voting Labor in 2007, have they made any headway in this? I think not. In fact they have gone backwards.
They have no battlefield, no issues, except “it was better” when we were in power. Except many groups know this is crud. The “media” says Rudd has done nothing, but when you look at individual groups they have done lots – enough for them to say “we were correct – to vote labor”.
Easy, stop listening to the violent rabble known as the far left.
Heres some of the violent thugs in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYJoEf9sZgc
He may not know who he is, Rua, but we can tell him WHAT he is!!
Glad to see you back in fighting form for 2010.
ru
Nice to see you back.
I was going to say that it gets easier after the first three years but I think it actually just got worse and worse.
Haha, you’re a real gem.
Thankfully, nature abhors the vacuous.
BH
Interesting bit of gossip, Pyne was not alone he was with a lycra clad Turnbull. At 5.30 AM. (Eeek the image is horrifying)
They were deep in conversation, not unusual? Maybe not – except Tony Abbott had gained the leadership a few days before.
Just early morning jogging buddies I guess?
Truthy if they are violent thugs your version of violent and mine after working a lot of years on doors in Pubs and club are totally different.
God help you if you ever meet a real violent thug not the harmless ones you put up,back to your white picket fence old son and check before you open the door
TheTruthHurts continual carping about the arrival of refugees by boat is extremely annoying. I makes we wish that I could set up in a “tinnie” in the Arafura or Timor Sea with a sign saying “Australia this way” and then after processing settle them in TTH’s street.
I also I find offence that he wishes to turn boats around and tow them back into international waters without any concern for their safety
The last thing we need is a repeat of the SIV X tragedy.
Finns,
Got to say that on this young Indian bloke being murdered in Melbourne, you are on the wrong track. His murder is a crime and there is no one in Australia that thinks the perp should not be brought to justice. Without evidence, speculation runs rife about motives. But, in the end, some people and countries are going to believe what they want to believe.
My question is how many young men were murdered in India last weekend? How much racial or religious violence manifested itself. I’m sure it is a damn sight more than is happening in Melbourne, Australia.
I get very wary of hoky news services that accuse Australians of racism. We had the recent incidents with Andrew Symonds where iconic cricketers from the sub continent resorted to lying and obfuscation to hide their own racism. The shame the Indians should feel following Symonds subsequent tour of India where tens of thousand Indian supporters resorted to ‘Monkey chants” whenever Symonds came to the crease or fielded the ball are testament to the “he who is without sin can cast the first stone” argument for pulling back from saying stupid things that will bite you on the bum.
I’m not saying Australia and Australians are perfect. But, by golly, we’ve built a nation out of religious and racial tolerance. Uninformed shock jocks looking to sell newspapers or media space can rant as much as they like. Talk to just about any migrant that has been here for an extended time. Very few want to go back to the shit fights of their native land.
TheTruthHurts
Posted Monday, January 4, 2010 at 4:16 pm | Permalink
“Yep poll after poll after poll says a majority want tougher laws and to TURN BACK the boats.”
which specific poll says australians wish to “turn back” th boats ?
(which is a quite diferent statement from australians prefering there were less boats)
secondley , last nite you were quote “moraly upset” that boat people were jumpin th q and getting into australia as refugees Yet when i asked you in my #110 why ar you not ALSO moraly upset with Howard as well seeing th “refugee” criteria has not changed and Howard allowed deemed per th same criteria “refugees” to come to Aust , there was no reply Why ar you not also “moraly upset” with howard on th SAME argument ??
GG
I have been reflecting that the Indians’ accusations of racism is in fact racist.
It demonstrates that they have a preconceived idea of the nature of Australian society and are fitting what’s happening into that preconception.
From memory the last census showed 20% + of people in Australia were born overseas. Any sane politician who wants to play “immigration games” should reflect on this.
And just how much of the voting population would be catagorised as ‘far left’? I’d say many of them already vote Green and they only poll 10% or thereabouts.
Your problem (yes, YOUR problem) is that the vast majority of people who voted for the Rudd opposition are ordinary, fair minded Australians who are not far left, far right nor far out.
The vast majority of people who now claim to support the Rudd government include that same majority PLUS many that voted for non Labor parliamentarians at the 2007 election. The message for you is that that very large number of people LIKE WHAT THEIR GOVERNMENT IS DOING over a whole range of issues and accept that there is no easy solution to some of the problems that we face.
When will you tell the truth about how you voted in 2007? I don’t give a rat’s arse that you voted Liberal. It’d just be better for you if you came owned up.
But sadly, there are some in that category who play into the fears whipped up by Truthy and Co
GG, perception often has got nothing to do with reality. Unfortunately, that is how being perceived in India, whether we like it or not.
Whatever the “real” reason for the attacks on Indians, the Indians I have spoken to believe it is racism directed to them. That is the concerning thing.
This may be in bad taste but I wonder if the Indian press are kicking up the same stink about the Indian woman who had her throat cut last week in Sydney seeing as the murderer was not Aussie but her Indian husband?
Loved the goss, Rua. Pyne has been awfully quiet since Abbott’s ascension.
Truthy – give up, mate. Most of us came from people who arrived in boats and my OH, the Welsh cheapskate (lol), came for 10 quid. The newcomers will be assessed and if not legit will be sent on their way. In the meantime let’s have a bit of Christian or whatever compassion.
Finns,
I’d be very way of saying there is an overwhelming Australian perception in India. More people would revere our cricketers than be concerned with our alleged racism. Like here, just because it appears in the newspaper or on TV does not make it true.
Otherewise, you might believe that everything Alan Jones says is believed by all Australians.
I’m prettty sure the Indians have their own bullshit detectors.
Yeah I have observed the same thing. However, I suspect our perceptions of who the violent thugs are in such places – would be diametrically different.
Troothy: all you and your Liberal mates have is the scare campaign on boat people!
It plays well with the redneck element who listen to talkback radio, but those people were going to vote Liberal or National anyway.
Just like to point out that the spolc paper cited at 157 doesn’t actually do any quantitative or comparative analysis, and I quote: “In this respect, they may not have been significantly different to other victims of similar crimes; other international students, and other Australian residents. But there is no firm data to test this claim.”
And moreover it notes “Crime statistics in NSW and Victoria do not routinely record the race or ethnicity of victims of crime (NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, 2009, and Victoria Police, 2009).”
So whatever you may think of the issue, the claim that “studies dispute” the Indian students’ position is actually unfounded.
I have an Indian friend; his view; it’s a hell of a lot more dangerous in India.
Still trying to finish Crikey’s preXmas email and in the process clicked on an article linked there to the Punch by Peter Garrett. The anti-CC mob are out in force with their comments to it. They certainly know how to round up the cohorts.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/You-cant-google-your-way-out-of-climate-change/?referrer=email
Why am I thinking of Batman and the Boy Wonder?
There might be a new Super duo in Canberra ready to fight the evil forces of the Coalition (ie Penguin Abbott and The Joker Joyce)
Vera: what I don’t want to see is Pyne clad in lycra….Abbott in his red sluggos was bad enough!
Pyne would do anything to see Minchin out of politics. Shame he may have to lose his seat before he eventually gets rid of him.
lefty e
That works both ways. If statistics aren’t clear in either direction, so we are talking perception.
It would be interesting to know why you have decided to adopt the perception that assaults on Indian students reflects racist attitudes. Is this a knee jerk reaction to the media reporting, a result of your own experiences, or reverse racism?
The media has been taking every case in recent times of attacks on Indian students and making a big issue out of them. However, the impression that’s left me with is there really aren’t that many of them, especially given that violent assaults are one of the highest reported crimes for Victoria.
I also saw some of the footage from India and thought it was out of proportion to the crimes reported.
It is true that the statistical evidence is frustrating – I couldn’t even find comparisons of violent crime between the states, a number you’d think would jump up fairly easily.
Given all that, the paper’s conclusion made it pretty clear that (with a few sops of uncertainty thrown in on the side of caution) that the authors also thought it was a problem of perception rather than reality.
Evan
The opposition sure are becoming a colourful lot!
Haven’t watched any news tonight but on the radio while driving home they had Senator Heffernen being booed by the friends of the bloke up the pole because Heff told them they should go up and drag him down.
“…it’s a hell of a lot more dangerous in India.”
Possibly, but perhaps we could aim higher than a developing country with a major Naxalite uprising. And at one level, the issue is actually whether its a hell of a lot more dangerous in our competitors for international students (US, UK, Canada, Singapore, NZ).
The view is rapidly establishing that they are safer.
And the protest was duly reported by Their ABC in their usual manner – ie Anti Govt – Pro Lib
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/04/2784863.htm
lefty e,
I can picture Mike Moore from Frontline fame looking in to the camera and saying, “Yes, a very disturbung report”.
I’ll call bullshit on your assertions.
Vera and Frank: they should leave that nutter up the pole, what an idiot!
Rudd has better things to do than worry about this tool!
Frank
Besides asylum seekers and mother of all taxes sending us all to the poorhouse, they haven’t got much else to bash Labor with
Finns wrote :
The death of this young man is totally deplorable however I think you are on the wrong track with your approach. GG makes excellent points above.
Unfortunately *some* indians, including their media are very quick to play the race card.
Police have to be given the chance to investigate this crime. For indians to up the ante like threatening government to government relations gets them nowhere.
Some may recall the murder by burning to death of australian Graham Staines and his twoyoung sons while sleeping in their station wagon at Manoharpur village in Keonjhar district in Orissa, India in January 1999.
Indian Police were able investigate these crimes without australia invoking race or threatening relations between our two countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Staines
evan
They should build a bonfire under his pole
Vera where is Don ? He would usually accuse someone who made such a comment as a nasty bit of work. But alas…….Don isn’t an independent thinker.
I support his right to stay up the pole until he starves to death, oops er no, maybe that is supporting suicide? Could I assist him by giving him an “angry angus” burger?
Oh its just so difficult. Maybe send him back to Cooma, it may seem like being dead.
Just leave him up the pole and give him no publicity. He’ll be back on ground before you can say “Sunday roast”.
lefty e
You have two propositions before you, equally hard to ‘prove’ statistically -
A. Indian students are more likely to be attacked in Australia than other members of the community.
Or
B. Indian students are no more likely to be attacked in Australia than anyone else.
I’m interested in why you’re going with B.
Sorry, A.
Big numbers confuse me.
Good on Heffernan. And I never thought I’d say that but that hypocritical Barnaby Joyce was busy telling the crowd that the vile Mr Rudd should pay them all for their land but forgot to mention that it was Mr Howard who legislated to take away. Crikey!!
How good is our Julia – just watched her with Uhlmann. She left him wallowing in the dust.
The Indian students death is regrettable.
At the same time every death is regrettable.
The issue of rascism is regrettable.
At the same time there seems to be no concerted campaign against any one group.
The MSM are regrettable.
As with most issues they play to the sensationalism not the realism.
Good question Zoomster – I deal with a lot of people in that age bracket (as a uni lecturer) and I catch a lot of trains too. The Indian students are now moving in coordinated ways together from station to station, because they are scared. None of the other student groups I know are doing the same.The student killed had already been atacked before, twice. There is no crime report evidence to suggest they are making this all up in their heads, despite some claims to the contrary.
My motivation – I just feel sorry for them, frankly. They’re guests here, and some are living like its Lynchtown, USA. For the record, I do agree the Indian press is out of control. I’m not sure they’re helping – but that doesn’t change life for the students here.
I might also say that Australian universities are very poor at supporting international students in general. Happy to take their dough, not much offered back in the way of support.
You can call whatever you like till the cows come home Growler, it wont concern me.
Peter
Yeah that’s me a real nasty piece is me
I’m bad! :evil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROprP41yB_E
Or he could be going with the theory that when an Indian student is attacked it is motivated by racial issues. That is not a theory not inconsistent with a or b.
oops – delete the first “not”.
Joe has joined the Mal & Chrissy in the Lib Superhero gang!
http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2008/10/FAT%20VENOM.jpg
Lefty e,
So you don’t care if waht you say is true or false. Sounds very Indian media to me.
Interesting.
BH
Heff wanted them to go up and get him off the pole and get him medical help.
The news report actually started by saying there had been a split in the Coalition over the pole bloke.
vera,
Obviously, the Libs have been clued up that this guy is not the full quid. Abbott was asked about Spencer the other day and was very non committal. He was referring to not suppporting people threatening self harm.
But you get the impression that Abbott did not want to be supporting a nutter up a pole with extremist views. He has plenty of them on the ground to worry about.
Well, do people asserting “its not racism” care whether its true or false, GG? Or is it just unthinking, reflex defensiveness? The fact is Indian students feel they have some grounds for greater concern than the average joe – and Ive seen nothing to dispute that view. Moreover, it accords with my own observations of how they are forming self-defence travel groupings.
I’d go further to note that we are seeing the emergence of a racial underclass in crappy 7/11 – fast food – taxi driver employment. Being used by unscrupulous employers who know many are breaching visa conditions to get by. Wokring late, alone, and vulnerable.
thats probably getting to the best explanation we have, but If you think that is a somehow “unconnected” with racism – you probably havent seen life for Latinos in California. I dont much like the idea of a racial underclass in this country.
As a member of a group in society who represent a minority, I might just give my own views on the issue. When you go out and get robbed/bashed – you take it as just the luck of the draw. However, if before the attack or during it, you are taunted etc and words of hate are directed at you relating to your minority status – you are left with the distinct impression it was an attack based on your minority status. No statistics will ever convince you otherwise.
And when you meet up with your friends, it has been my experience that people go “Was that hate related?”. It has not been my experience that people automatically assume or turn it into a hate related crime.
I have no reason to believe Indian students would act differently when discussing attacks upon them amongst themselves.
He’s right and confirmed by Abbott’s almost no comment on this. I heard the family on RN today saying his Dr is going up the pole tomorrow to check him out.
My OH lost 20kg in 11 days a few years ago (op went wrong) and was in a woeful state – kidneys crashing and all the rest of it. I can’t work out how the pole bloke can be standing/sitting up there and looking like he does after 42 days of water only.
I think there is a lot more to this story than we are hearing.
Perhaps Dio may have some info on what to expect after that time.
Yeah GG especially since Abbott became leader, he attracts the nutters
3 weeks without food-
3 days without water
Accepted survival rate
Bobby sands lasted 42 days
Spencer aint no sands
Lefty e – that is lousy that the Indian students are so fearful. The Universities must definitely help out if they want to keep on getting the revenue.
I’m not sure that the fella who has just suffered was very wise to be travelling on his own after previous episodes of violence.
It’s a bit like being a teenage girl – the rule should always be never, ever travel on your own anywhere.
BH
ABC has this
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/04/2785184.htm
BH
Bobby Sands lasted 66 days – I wonder if Cooma Pole Man will exceed this?
Madonna King proves she’s as nasty as she is vacuous, in a sad attempt to be funny. Well, I think she was trying to be funny:
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26544043-5012465,00.html
Meanwhile, Malcolm seeks enlightenment, proves he reads Poll Bludger and tries to become an Amigo, all on his holidays:
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/samanthamaiden/index.php/theaustralian/comments/turnbull_finds_new_mountain_to_climb/
Speaking of men up a pole, there was a Perth man up a tree before xmas. Whatever happened to him?
And Frank Calabrese: you (I think it was you) once said you were in Judi Moylan’s electorate. Are those Brigadoon fires anywhere near you?
gusface
you left out
3 minutes without air
Vera – You’re still a norty gel, but very funny. A real pinup, that one.
Yes, but PY, if I’m determined to bash someone I’m going to find reasons for it.
Thug X is drunk and belligerent, and goes out looking for someone to bash. He just needs an excuse. It might be the colour of someone’s skin, it might be that he thinks they’re gay, it might be that they looked at him sideways or accidentally knocked into them.
Whoever he decides to bash, he’s going to abuse. So he’s going to call the dark person he bashes ‘nigger’ or ‘blackie’, the gay person ‘poof’, the guy who looked at him sideways or knocked into him a ‘c*nt’.
The victims in the first two instances will rightly report that the attack was racially or sexually motivated. Doesn’t make it so.
Of course, I’m not denying that there are cases where the thug announces to the world that they’re going out to bash a darkie.
lefty e, your examples of students forming groups because they’re scared is not proof of anything other than they’re scared. It’s perception again.
Ru
My mistake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Sands
And that’s was happened to my OH . Let’s hope the bloke’s Dr gets him down tomorrow because 66 days is not far away.
In the meantime, Barnyard is having a picnic with his farming mates and promising them the world, no doubt.
Lefty e,
Social underclass? Students have always been a social underclass back from before the days I used to work part time menial jobs to get through. Just because the current generation are Indian or whatever is peripheral.
Teenagers always think they are picked on. That’s what teenagers are like.
Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.
And is married to the editor of the Courier Mail. Ooops must have been a sub editor slip up?
polyquats
Thanks for that post about malcolm. Finns will be impressed with him going to sit under the Knowledge Tree at Machu Picchu!
#270
It the belligerent drunk just wanted somebody to bash – irrespective of any motivations of hate towards any group – you would think he would just bash the first person he saw – which presumably would be a person in the same pub and possibly of the same social “milleu”. However, some of these belligerent drunks seem to make a lot of effort to travel to areas where appropriate victims might be found.
Yep, Up the road and over the hill – I’m at the bottom of Campersic Rd near Toodyay – the fires are in the hilly part. Could see the smoke and flames from here.
poly,
Turnbull is obviously a Finns fan. So he should be!
Yes, How can we stop Asian immigrants from attacking Indians? These racist Asian gang member thugs need to be caught and strong charges brought against them.
See here for details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5K0hVJrct8
And this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ouQDo1lr80&feature=related
These violent racist Asian attacks must be stopped.
I’m terribly chuffed to find out that Brigadoon really exists.
PY, I didn’t deny that there are people who target particular groups.
***Waits for the bomb blasts that are surely coming……..***
Polyquats 266 – interesting link thanks re Malcolm paying for his staffers’ mobile phone accounts so the taxpayer money could be used for other Lib pollies’ offices. Poor souls now have to pay it out of their own office allowances. They must be hurting to have mentioned to Samantha Maiden about all the things Malcolm paid for out of his own pocket.
Also loved the reporting of the amount paid out on replacement staff during Malcolm’s time as Oppn Ldr. He churned a lot of staff.
GG
I’ll say it again
Everyone loves the Dolphin
PY,
More “Poof” than a “blast”
Maybe a flag saying bang in a popgun is more your style.
Truthy
If people break the law they should be charged, if found guilty they should be jailed. It does not matter what ethnicity they come from.
I have ended up in hospital after being attacked by an Australian gang, I have had 32 stitches in my face after being glassed by a Fin, (sorry Finns no slur meant). I have had my arm broken by a croatian for reneging on a “deal”.
Life is tough in the real world. Play with the “hard men” and people often get hurt. I will await the results of the police enquiry, people don’t get beaten up then murdered without some cause.
The point Finns was making re the murdered Indian student is how Australia and the murder are perceived overseas.
Not something of which you’re part, is it TTH!
Beside this ancient RW chestnut belongs to the 1960-70s; beloved of Rhona Joiner, the League of Rights, DLP during the early Joh years, Pauline Hanson and probably la Rouche followers. Try for a more recent cliche! Even one from the 1980s would be an improvement.
Incidentally, poll after poll since Dec 06 (inc Election07), the majority have clearly preferred Kevin Rudd & the ALP. I would, therefore, assume Kevin Rudd has taken good care of “the silent majority” and they’ll reward him with another term! I’d also assume that, in rolling Howard in 07, they punished him for ignoring the majority!
You could also try for the truth, instead of mouthing dishonest cliches.
Most of these “racist attacks” on Indians are from ethnic groups, usually asian gangs.
The left and media won’t tell you little details like that though, they rather do what they usually do and “blame the white fellas”.
Thats the real racism going on here, not the Indian bashing… the white fella bashing by constantly skewing information to the punters at home. I have just shown 2 Indian bashings where both had video survalence and in both cases it was individuals of an Asian background. Seems the public have been hoodwinked again.
Care to quantify “most”?
Truthy – #288
The reports I have had (and the only close to the source information I have) indicate the attacks are not from “asian gangs”.
Isn’t it time some of you commenters ceased engaging with the hysterical and the mentally unhinged?
Next, you’ll be joining hom atop his pole, seeking out boatpeople from the back of Bourke!
It’s interesting that people in here keep bringing up SIEV X but have nothing to say about the boat explosion where 5 individuals were murdered and another 12 seriously burnt, or the 11 or so that drowned just last year. I wonder why that is? Could it be because these deaths occured because of the flood of new arrivals since the softening of the laws by the Rudd government, or is it because in both cases it appears the boatpeople themselves were involved in the sinking/explosion?
Interesting times.
hom = him
There are “gangs” and the thing that motivates them to assault others is that the person is “not one of us”.
They don’t live in our street, they don’t dress like us, they don’t look like us, they don’t think like us. It is simplistic in the extreme to say I was attacked because of xyz.
Nothing new, not one of us has been happening for centuries.
It is bizzarre that posters generally believe Truthy would not know his arse from his elbow. Yet poster after poster is prepared to discuss his view from sunny Townsville as if he’s got anything intelligent to offer on street violence in Melbourne.
He’s the Tully of the board. Pass through (at legal speed).
Did you watch the videos?
Use your eyes. The reports by the media, the left and the Indian groups are hyped up BS.
The most famous of these bashings, the Weribee Train bashing I have supplied video of. Tell me those are white caucasian Aussie ockers out to bash a couple of Indians. Sorry, not buying the rot on this story anymore.
Truthy,
Gradually moving in to White Supremacist mode I see.
Was always going to happen.
I don’t know what a ” white caucasian Aussie ocker ” is. As far as I am aware there are none residing in my street.
I thought murder required intent? Did the person/ people who blew up the boat intend to kill? Manslaughter at the most Truthy.
I got it from a good Incas authority that Malcolm did spend sometime under the Knowledge Tree of Macchu Picchu and reflected on his wayward ways. He will repent and come to join the Labor Party with his millions:
http://users.tpg.com.au/tjhpnq98//ktree2.jpg
Amigo Vera,
The 4 Amigos are forever:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2756/4142024167_41924ceb93.jpg
Wow scary.
When I lived in Perth I lived in Mt Helena on a 5ac bush block, and the closest I came to a bushfire were a deliberately-lit fire around Mundaring Weir that got out of control, and another one in Mundaring near the Ming Restaurant, but neither ever really threatened my house. Embers were falling, but no flames thankfully.
So me pointing out most of these Indian bashings are by ethnic gangs makes me a white supremacist?
Come on, get real. I think Australians should be told the truth about these things instead of the constant media beat ups. I’m yet to see video of a bunch of racist skin heads beat up Indians in Melbourne… isn’t it strange that all the video footage of these bashings so far have been ethnic gangs? What does that tell you mate?
Should Clarify, not THAT close, but about 3 or 4 km away around a couple of turns of Campersic – Fulvio knows where I live
Actually we had one on Red Hill on Xmas Day about 5-6 years ago – Brother in Law was on call for FESA as either State Co-Ordinator, or Media Liason – got the page, and when asked how long he’ll be said “30 seconds away”
You have lived a very sheltered life?
If I’m ever on a boat with you and your family and I pour petrol all over the boat and then light it up and the whole thing goes kaboom, i’m sure you’d be pressing murder charges rather than saying “oopsies daisies, accidents happen!”.
It was murder, intent for bad things to happen was there.
Don’t worry though, here in “Rudds Australia” we reward serial killers with a Permanent Residency Visa and a life time of Centrelink payments.
Truthy,
There are thousands of assaults every year. You’ve found two from when, over what period and you can conclude it is all Asian gangs. Spare me the bulldust.
You’ve proven your racist credentials. Now you have to live with yourself. I can’t think of any worse penalty.
Show me the videos of white racist gang beating Indians in Melbourne.
You can’t because it doesn’t exist.
Yet I can come on here and show 2 videos of what are clearly asian gangs beating Indians. How does that make me racist? Showing the true side of the story of whats happening in Melbourne
Your understanding of the law is sadly lacking, if I poured petrol over the boat with the sole intention of killing you then yes it would be murder. If you died as a result of my action, but I did not intend to kill you it would be manslaughter.
Simple really – yet so many dills and shock jocks get it wrong.
Anybody who has World Movies should turn to it now:
The classic of Classics of the artistic Kung Fu Movies
Vera , th sniper had a go at you th 1/2 wit
“Vera where is Don ? He would usually accuse someone who made such a comment (you) as a nasty bit of work. But alas…….Don isn’t an independent thinker.”
oh , i see Don got a serve too
this Sniper was called a piece , and i agree with Don You on other hand Vera ar esteemed darlin of PB cause you ar fair dinkum
Saw 7.30 Report , th Indian External” Affairs minister , assume foreign minister , says re th indian guys death that if australian Govt does not act to stop this sort of thing , th Indian Govt MAY take actions they prefer not to
So IN India th media & Indian govt ar playing th race card & giving there public that persepton , not good for oz re reputaton & th valuable 13 billion trade in educaton
but a life has been lost , is sad But thugs did it , think by random as guy walks thu a dark park at nite alone 7 th thugs were there could hav been a lady , then it may be rape and/or murder Could hav been a angosaxen or person from Asia , same likely result
A friend of mines 22 yr old got bashed 3 mths ago , is brain damaged , very sads , by 20 0dd vietnamese (most since caught) Father interviewed on radio by Neil Mitchell
was that racist ? , no think just thugs , picking by by random selecton
making these thug crimes into racist crimes may suit media , but there is no evidense to suport th claim as a % of total murders or asaults , none at all so little I tink th Police do not bother keeping stats on victums or ofenders origins
and for Indians , maybe beatup for politcal gain , but i remeber indian spinner Singh callingoz andrew Symonds (of Sth African descent) a monkey in th Sydney test & when chalenged on being racist th whole Indian team said we’ll cut short th tour because Singh denied it & they claimed 5 oz cricketers who said he did were liars (Clarke , Hayden , ponting , Symonds & gillchrist)
9 months earlier when in india after Singh also called Symonds a monkey & it got media airplays , over 10,000 indian fans at Madras kept shoutin monkey at Symonds there govt said nothing
Point of example is India hav doubler standards on racism multiple times in th example
India’s current alegaton of racism is a cheap shot on what is reely a terrible tragedy of thugs attackin “anyone” of whatever racial origin who whapened to walked thru that deserted park that nite
Whether Murder or Manslaughter, this thug and crim is potentially walking our streets and is being paid centrelink payments because our soft touch government was too weak to say no to the refugee advocates lobby.
No one on that boat should have been allowed to stay in Australia while doubts remained on who poured the petrol and lit the fumes. Not a single bloody one of them. What sort of idiot at the immigration department ticked and approved them coming in, these are the people who are meant to be in charge of PROTECTING Australia’s borders for christ sakes.
Truthy,
Read what I said. Two video don’t make an argument for your racist vomit.
I’m under no obligation to producee any videos. You are under pressure to prove that two videos makes your obnoxious theories relevant.
Most people on this site undersand that 2 from thousands means sfa.
ruake -
I understood that a form of reckless indifference to life when carrying out the act was also murder, and that an intention to kill was not the only way murder was established.
see. point 2.5 Law Reform Commission of NSW, Report 82, 1997:-
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lrc.nsf/pages/R82CHP2
311
You are becoming more and more hysterical with every post. You should take a break from posting here or you’ll blow a heart valve.
OMG! If that was 6 years ago then I was still in Perth, but I can’t recall that fire impacting me.
My old street was inhabited by at least 4 volunteer fireries. At street parties they all used to joke that if a fire was threatening us we needn’t worry cause they’d all rush to save their own places first and by extension we’d be ok! I never knew whether that was just joking, or serious. Thankfully I never had to find out.
I take my hat off to our SES and volunteer fire people, I really do. In Mt Helena I had a volunteer firey live 2 doors up from me and his work was ongoing throughout the year not just when there was a fire. He used to help us with winter burn-offs by lending the station tanker to be on stand-by in case it got out of hand, and used to offer advice about fire prevention measures at the household level – it was on his advice that I had roof sprinklers installed on the house for eg.
Has Judi Moylan surfaced in response to the Toodyay fires? From my limited experience she was a pretty hands off local member and only really got involved in Midland-specific stuff, not Hills or Swan Valley events, much less the more rural parts of her electorate.
Peter Young
I will leave that to the coroner, what did he find? Of course Truthy thinks he was got at by some evil conspiracy.
” the accused foresaw the probability that death would result ” is the telling bit. It is similar to intent, in that the person intended, or expected to kill.
I’m getting sick of the personal attacks on me and people calling me racist. I am polite and have not abused anyone yet some feel the need to personally abuse me and call me names because i’m not seeing the world through their eyes.
If I setup a situation by my own choosing that will almost certainly lead to deaths, am I not a murderer? If someone places a bomb in a building for example and sets it off are you claiming you could not charge them with murder if they did not intent to kill people?
I find that hard to believe. Pouring petrol on a boat and lighting it would in my view, be an intent to kill and I think a jury would agree.
Judith has been conspicuous by her silence
But then again Crazy Colin hasn’t dropped into Brigadoon either 
Truthy,
The bullies lament of “It’s not fair”. Don’t cut it. If you you don’t like the judgement of your peers on PB, find another to jump off.
Oh geez Ron #310 – Good attempt to defend the status quo.
Your argument is because Police “know” crimes are not hate related, they do not keep statistics. Just as valid is the argument the cops are too lazy to do the paperwork or don’t want their own sympathies expoused.
You know this to be a fact? Did the perpetrators say that’s what they did? Did the perpetrators have a vested interest in saying that because the penalty is higher for a hate crime than for a random crime? The cops aren’t going to bother to search for the truth – too much hard work. They are happy to get a “conviction” and move onto the next case (or go down the pub).
#317
On this occassion Truthy you are right
Ron
thanks for kind words amigo
did you see Finns’ nice photo of us?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2756/4142024167_41924ceb93.jpg
We have shock jock radio. Now we have shock-blogging, or at least a shocking blogger. HTT, is everyone in the Tully branch of the Liberal-Notional-Hanson Party as nutty as you?
If your kind of raving, foaming, gargling nonsense is the best the right can come up with, Rudd will be in Government for 30 years.
Getting back to “not one of us”.
It works in many ways, Truthy uses it to condemn “Asian Gangs” – not one of us. Indians are, of course – not one of us. So two “not one of us” is news.
But where does “not one of us” end or begin? It is so easy to justify anything because “they” are not one of us. They drive a Ford not a Holden, they like VB not Tooheys. They follow Collingwood or Manly (everyone hates them).
People gather in groups, so they can say to others “you are not one of us”. We are tribal animals – just be sure to pick the right tribe.
Peter if you want to ignore ” probability that death would result ” fair enough.
#316
Not intent at all. The accused foresaw that death would result. He proceeded anyway. In other words he was indifferent to whether death resulted. An intent to kill means that death was actually intended. Quite a difference.
What’s worse, TTH’s view of the world or an Amigo love-in? We are really having a treat tonight
“vera
Posted Monday, January 4, 2010 at 10:03 pm | Permalink
Ron
thanks for kind words amigo
did you see Finns’ nice photo of us?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2756/4142024167_41924ceb93.jpg
”
sort of like tip tow thru th tulips , on sand Vera
PY,
What did the real lawyers decide as opposed to the literate drongos (You know, the ones that know all the rules, but don’t know how to apply them)?
It’s a bit naive to think that no assaults or murders are hate crimes, racial, gang or sexual but the number is very small.
In other words his intent was to kill, give up.
Happy New Year Ru. You’ve been missed.
Tosh. You like the attention. You assert and then repeat outrageous, provocative and dishonest tripe until you get a reaction. You enjoy the confrontation because it makes you think you have something to say and that people are taking you seriously. No-one takes you seriously because you are a fraud and a coward who gets his kicks out of condemning – from the safe distance of a blog – people who are different from you and cannot defend themselves.
GG – #328
WTF are you talking about?
The NSW Law Reform Commission (real lawyers) made a pretty succint statement of the law.
In any particular case the factual circumstances are decided by a jury after being given directions by a judge as to the issues they need to consider. Thus in the end the real lawyers don’t decide.
So wtf are you talking about?
ruawake -#330
Why give up so easily?
The accused foresaw that death would probably result from his act. He may hope that it doesn’t. Despite this knowledge of probable death (but still hoping that it doesn’t happen) he still proceeds with the act.
That is different to intending (actual wishing ) death. But both are murder.
Crikey. TTH & PY seem to know so much about the “accidental” explosion on that boat it would seem they were on it at the time and spoke to the person or persons who caused the said explosion who definitely claimed that they did so in the full knowledge that death and injury to personnel on board said boat was going to occur and they did so anyway in the full knowledge of that anyway.
Further, that person or persons are alive and well in Australia having been found not only not culpable for said death and injuries, they have been granted residency!
This would have to be a travesty of justice up with the best of them except for the fact that a Coroner has investigated the incident and has not made a finding such as that which our finest legal minds, TTH and PY have deduced.
It hasn’t occurred to you two that the person or persons who did set off the explosion might have perished in the act and that they never contemplated that the boat would explode but instead burn so that the passengers would have to be removed onto the Australian warship and be taken to Christmas Island for processing?
Countless hundreds of people have been severely burned with a number dying from pouring an accellerant like petrol on open fires, never expecting that it would explode with sudden ferocity. I expect the people on the boat were just a naive also. They certainly wouldn’t be trying to incinerate themselves!
Some people talk a lot of unsubstantiated rot here sometimes!
Scorpio,
Truthy does it as the house redneck racist.
PY does it as the educated illiterate.
Stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.
Changing the subject for a break from Toothy’s ranting
Looks like Obama is in for a tough year
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/crises-to-greet-obamas-return-20100104-lq8p.html
After reading about the Repubs ramping up the nastiness and carrying on about big dept and deficits etc you can see where Abbott’s lot are getting their tactics from
WTF are “YOU” talking about?
I don’t think I have read such self serving rubbish about something that you know “NOTHING” about for a long, long time!
Get a life pal!
GG,
Boy, and are we getting a dose and a half of it here tonight!
Ahhh, so that aligns with my experience of her as a local member.
It used to be Jaye Radisich as the state person when I lived there, but I don’t know who it is now but am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that it is a Liberal?
On this occasion you are both wRONg and big time too! Get a life!
Vera, just as well he got a mature, good looking, intelligent, gracious, fearless, pant suit wearing, bullet ducking woman looking after him.
It is Frank Alban – Jaye Retired in somewhat contraversial circumstances – see the WA Election posts for the gory details.
scorpio – 335
Your apparent dislike of me has blinded you to what I have said. It is nothing like you have claimed.
I merely pointed out the error in a theoretical sense of ruawake’s bald statement that murder requires an actual intent to kill. I also pointed out that it was also established where there was reckless indifference to life. My comments where not directed to any specific set of circumstances, but merely to establish the error in ruawake’s statement which cause readers to be misled.
vera and Finns
I haven’t been following it as closely as I should have but I’m getting the feeling it might all turn to sh$$ in the US this year. Fortunately, Paul Krugman has an argument to back up my intuition.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/opinion/04krugman.html
PY,
The more you write, the less you say.
Hi diog
where you been? under the tree with Malcolm maybe
What a load of absolute codswallop! How the hell do you know that with such certainity? Were you there? Were you one of them?
You would almost have to be to know that beyond a shadow of doubt that omit to include in your rant!
Finns
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sn8rHLP3qU8/SWz5I-p_t3I/AAAAAAAABCQ/XvTzFVeKS0A/s320/super+hillary.jpg
I think troothy and PY need to learn Cribbage.
I have spent the last week or so teaching the kids to play.
Works a treat at stopping disputes
scorpio- #348
I wasn’t where? I didn’t see what?
My statement was directed to general principles. I was pointing out that ruawakes bald assertion was wrong.
vera
Turnbull took me along to give him some advice but he ditched me when he saw Finns’ highly defamatory signs.
I’m thinking of suing.
Ron
“India’s current alegaton of racism is a cheap shot on what is reely a terrible tragedy of thugs attackin “anyone” of whatever racial origin who whapened to walked thru that deserted park that nite”
PY
“You know this to be a FACT ? Did the perpetrators say that’s what they did? Did the perpetrators have a vested interest in saying that because the penalty is higher for a hate crime than for a random crime? The cops aren’t going to bother to search for the truth – too much hard work. They are happy to get a “conviction” and move onto the next case (or go down the pub).”
I KNOW what th Chief Inpector of Police investigating it said on TV tonite , and posted what he was basically sayin
whereas you hav NO substantaton for your factless “opinion”
Th Chief Inpector of Police also said th evidense indicated it was a random act of violense Posters should read PY’s words , such anti Police perseptons will always lead to 1/2 wit conclusons
you also twisted anothr of my words by quoting out of context I’ll requote in full
“making these thug crimes into racist crimes may suit media , but there is no evidense to suport th claim as a % of total murders or asaults , none at all so little I tink th Police do not bother keeping stats on victums or ofenders origins”
ie there was no evidense to suggest this was a racist crime (whch th Chief Inpector has also said) & that th % of racist based crimes of total murders is so little th police now do not I think bothr keeping stats of victums origin Why ? because they already keep numerous stats on th causes of murder crimes as a means of trying to find th cause/motive and to then catch th ofenders , and racist based crimes ar too small to warrant stat incluson
It’s got nothing to do with it! If you write rubbish, I feel obliged to call it as such!
If you continue to assert “theoritical” as “certainity”, then you deserve to be called on it.
It’s been a long time since I have come across someone as full of themselves as what you have been presenting here!
Why the can’t everyone just wait until they catch the murderers before saying it was or wasn’t a racist crime?
Diogs,
You want posters be evidence based in their posts?
Are you a Communist?
You only ever confuse a story by introducing facts.
GG,
Funny you say that because when I read PY’s post @ 351, it became clear that he has totally lost the thread of what he was trying to espouse and was desperately trying to cover for getting found out so thoroughly in his BS!
Ron #353
Where did the esteemed Chief Inspector get his information from as the randomness of the attack? The only source I can think of is in interviews with the perpetrators. The possibility exists that that information was given by the perpetrators out of self interest (lower penalty). To assert as a “fact” the contrary is wRONg.
As to your last paragraph – I will let it go through to the keeper. The absurdity of it is apparent on its face.
Diog, Japan & USA are travelling in the same boat. They deserve each other. My Japanese friend in Japan said things are really grimmed. Many SME are heading for bankruptcies. Mr. Yukio is turning out like Obama Lite.
GG
It’s one thing to say what you think might have happened and speculate esp when you’re never going to find out the truth but we’re going to find out one way or another pretty soon. Those gangs always get caught.
The Northern Territory Police white wash…. oops I mean investigation…. concluded that one or more of the boatpeople onboard poured petrol over the boat and then lit the fuel, causing the explosion and deaths of 5 people, seriously burning 12 and almost killing Australian Defence Force personel.
The question is who was the person responsible for the attack. Was it one of the dead or one of the people Rudd granted a permanent protection visa and are now walking the streets. Well the police weren’t quite sure, which really brings into question of what the hell the immigration department is doing in letting highly unstable thugs who have a tendancy to blow things up into the country.
Peter Young
“Ron #353
Where did the esteemed Chief Inspector get his information from as the randomness of the attack? The only source I can think of is in interviews with the perpetrators.”
First YOU aleged i had no facts , even though you had only a factless “opinion”
I supply facts , being a public statement from th Chief Inspector of Police who actualy is investigatin th Indian studens sad death
Now , you switch to alegating against th Chief Inspector ! only your factless “opinion”
you ar a 1/2 wit with “opinions” , which sensible people ignore & instead rely on experts , th Police
I would hope I am wrong in concluding that the consensus of opinion on here amongst the vocals is that despite the perception in India and amongst Indian students in Australia that they are being subjected to hate related attacks, we should do nothing except point out that they are wrong, accuse them of a political beat-up and tell them to take a look in their own back-yard before they criticise us.
back peddling now , to camoflage your outragous claims against all incl th Police , does not cut
Ron – #362
You method of arguing is quite unique.
It is illogical and verging on the outright dishonest – but it is still unique.
Marbe it would be worthwhile for the Feds to run some positive advertising.
One of the side effects of Howie’s dog whistles was a heightened fear of the other.
That said no simple remedy exists,aside from continuing to educate people in the positive aspects of multiculturalism.
I actually think that the MSM are the culprits in all this.
ps anyone here ever played cribbage?
What is cribbage ?
my father did and he taught our dauther but thats all i know.
she loved playing with her pa.
did any one hear the story about ruddock saying that they took boats back to indonesia when he was in gov,. i heard read out to day on a inderpendant radion station. No sure what paper it was being read from but it was interesting because he contradicted abbott saying that it was not always possible depending on the boats.
amamazing and the people where not told.
sorry about the grammar past my bed time
A game of skill luck and a bit of chance.Bit of an allegory on life i suppose
the beauty is that even tho you maybe be up the proverbial,the next deal of the cards can put you back on top.
You use a similar board as an electoral pendulum.
Sorts the whingers from the players.
ps quirky historical fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage
TTH @ # 292
Your arguments are irrelevant. Regardless of any other events it does not mean that arguing for the possibility another SIEV X is not offensive.
Whoever were responsibly for those other deaths should be punished if it can be proven before a court that they were at fault.
However, TTH you are arguing that our Navy tow boats with asylum seekers on board out to sea.
I think that yours is the greater sin because it is based on selfishness and discrimination.
Just remember that 146 children, 142 women and 65 men perished when the SIEV X sank. Maybe you should look into the eyes of these children
Interesting times.
It is more than “interesting time” it is a sad time when we have people arguing in support of state sponsored murder because of the colour of their skin.
My mum taught me how to plat cribbage, i still have her board a trangular one.
Haven’t played for years and have forgotten most except things adding up to 15? is that right?
Vera
i am teaching the kids all the “old games”
And yes 15 scores 2 points.
You play a hand like cards,then add up the total points that you hold in your hand.
5 mins into a game and all disputes and arguments are forgotten (or at least put aside)
Also gives the kids an insight into the pre electonic age,when we had to amuse ourselves not be driven by DS zbox and playstations.
LOL
Is this the sort of Boat Person we would like to see more of?
http://www.smh.com.au/national/bikini-girl-who-made-a-splash-20091231-ll1h.html
gusface
I have happy memories of playing with mum for hours. She’s gone now, I used to nag her to play “one more game mum”
We lived out the bush with no electricity until i was 12.
An old girlfriend’s mum, yonks ago thought that the triangle was an ouija board.
LOL
Gusface @ # 350
I think troothy and PY need to learn Cribbage.
I have spent the last week or so teaching the kids to play.
Works a treat at stopping disputes
As long as they can add up to 15 and 31 and and count a double run or bigger.
Loxoory
Well, it would help troothy with his math’s skills
And Labor knew yet didn’t say anything.
Gee I wonder why. Could it be perhaps because most Aussies would support “turning back the boats” as shown in polls for the last 10 years?
We had a go at the ouija board a few times too, the glass would be moving spelling out words and we’d be accusing each other of pushing it.
Still living out bush with out house way down back and one night after an ouija session something was banging on the outsde of the loo!
Scared the bejesus out of us and we raced back inside switched the bedroom light on and it exploded!
Have never touched ouija since!
Peter Young
Posted Monday, January 4, 2010 at 11:22 pm | Permalink
“Ron – #362 You method of arguing is quite unique.
It is illogical and verging on the outright dishonest”
I can understand your frustraton at being made publicly foolish alegating I had no facts , then i supply th Police Inspector’s coment exposing your nonsense , so then you alegate against th Police Inspector’s competanse !!! , and also having earlier trashed th whole Police dept
Trying to now to camoflage your embarassment by sayin i’m almost dishonest means you’ve hit th bottom , trying to save your lost credability
your factless “opinions” did not stack up
Gusface @ # 378
A double run is ok but after that he might run out of fingers and toes
Troothy
I am happy to teach you solitaire for your long lonely patrols among the atolls and reefs,as you defend with all your might, our veritable garden of eden from those spawn of beezlebub and their nefarious plan to colonise us.
You truly deserve a permanent post deep in the sea, vigilantly scanning the horizons for the first sign of the foreigners armada.
I am happy to start a collection.
Scorpio -
Do you feel threatened by me? Or envious, because as someone with their whole life ahead of them is more knowledgeable than you, whereas you are in your twilight years and can only look back on a wasted life?
My discrimination is limited to queue jumpers.
I have said consistantly that we should turn back every single one of the boats and let Australia decide on the 13,500 humanitarian positions a year.
This is actually more humane than the lefts view that those who stampede over the less fortunate, by jumping the queue and paying people smugglers should get first dibs.
The left want to pretend that if we don’t let queue jumpers steal spots from real refugee’s than somehow… and I haven’t quite worked this one out yet… these people from the safe haven of Indonesia will be “tortured and killed” despite being 1000′s of km away from where they claim they were persecuted.
It really sends my BS meter off the scale when I hear this lie peddled around.
Heres the facts:
1. Australia accepts 13,500 Humanitarian immigration positions a year
2. We could send back every single boat and easily fill out 13,500 positions from offshore processing from places such as Afghanistan or Africa
3. Boatpeople from Indonesia have already fled persecution, they should be at the back of the line, not the front
4. It is not racist, nor discrimatory to decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.
OOps – # 385
Should have been addressed to Ron.
Apologies to Scorpio.
Crikey! My 18 year old son thinks he knows more than me too, but that doesn’t mean he does!
What you have said here says a lot more about you than it does me! I’m very comfortable in my own skin and have had far from a “wasted” life.
Just be careful you don’t waste yours and all that knowledge you claim to have!
Bet PY & Toothy will dispute the official police media release.
http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/more-news/2636-stabbing-death-footscray.html
That Krugman article is a bit worrisome. The SMH had an article predicting the stock market will rise about 19% this year. But after looking at Krugman’s analysis I think I will stay with cash for a while longer.
I reckon murdoch is first class idiot in all this. His crumbling media empire depends on a healthy business environment for advertising sponsorship with a healthy consumer economy. So you would think News corp would be doing all they can to support governments in helping the economy, News Corps future may depend on it.
But we have instead fakenews and their ilk aggressively trying to undermine the government at every turn. The US needs another stimulus package. The Repubs and murdoch media hacks will make sure that wont happen and thus sow the further destruction of News corp share prices.
Murdoch should hand over running of the business to a real business leader like Buffet.
No,just subhuman and fascist.
Not offensive to your ilk at all .
Accepted!
There are a few assumptions there. People are known to live to 100 and are also known to die young or youngish of all types of things. Also you don’t don’t know Ron from Adam. What’s his IQ Peter? Better still, what’s yours?
FRANK – #389
I only read the media release:
http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/more-news/2636-stabbing-death-footscray.html
with a mind to see what it contained relating to any motive for the stabbing. It contained no assertion re motive. It is therefore irrelevant to the discussion. I don’t dispute it.
PY
You are just jealous cos you wish you had Ron’s charisma.
An apology is in order or you must be considered an agent provocateur.
The choice is yours
ps infantile abuse is best left for troothy.
[Bet PY & Toothy will dispute the official police media release.
http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/more-news/2636-stabbing-death-footscray.html
Which bit would I be disagreeing with exactly?
I would like the police to give a discription of the apparant offenders though, that information maybe helpful in catching the offenders rather than vague information they are giving.
Who do you think should be deciding who comes here?
TheTruthHurts @ # 286
“My discrimination is limited to queue jumpers”
There is no queues, it is just a figment of your imagination
So then your discrimination is based on … what.
If you were fair dinkum you would be making as much noise about the many more asylum seekers that turn up at Mascot each year but they never get a mention in you ramblings.
“I have said consistantly that we should turn back every single one of the boats and let Australia decide on the 13,500 humanitarian positions a year. ”
We are obliged by law to accept anyone who arrives on our shore who can demonstrate that they are a refugee. That is the only requirement. How they get here is of no relevance. This has been law since Menzies.
TTH if you are going to argue a point to death please learn the facts and I don’t mean the ones that you make up as you go along.
Somehow I don’t think Ron has any feelings of envy towards the self opinionated and obnoxiously rude.
The appropriate sentiment would be absolute contempt.
Gary Bruce – #393.
The comment was directed to Ron (although initially mistakenly typed as scorpio which I later corrected). It is therefore perplexing that you should decide to involve yourself in the discussion. Particularly when by doing so you demonstrate that your post was probably an impetuous one. I fail to see what intelligence quotient has to do with knowledge, although I do understand IQ is probably an inherited factor (although possibly affected by lifes events). I do not discuss people’s disabilities and your questions are out of order. Shame on you.
Well ratsars @398 among others have tried to educate you
Remember Ming?,as flawed as he was,i suspect he would turn in his grave at your ignorance and falsehoods.
400 – I know who it was directed at and it was a piss poor effort on your part. It deserves all the condemnation given to it from me and others. You add to your piss poor effort with this comment “I do not discuss people’s disabilities and your questions are out of order. Shame on you.” I don’t and I didn’t. Shame on you Peter, you have descended into the gutter.
While a certain amount of rambunctiousness is entirely appropriate in the battle of ideas, I feel a couple of commenters have been more personal in some of their recent attacks than the occasion demanded. I hope, probably in vain, that you know who you are.
Sorry William, I was offended by what Peter had to say. I’ll let it go now.
Sorry William
I wont mention Cribbage again. (damn i just did)
The Libs won’t like this.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/surge-in-job-ads-as-firms-expand-20100104-lq3q.html
[""The hunt for India's first astronauts - 'vyomanauts' in a desi tweak - has begun. Two of the four selected vyomanauts (vyoma means 'space' or 'sky' in Sanskrit) will finally go on India's first manned space mission scheduled to lift off in 2015." http://is.gd/5LSTX
Apropos of not much,but actually a lot.
Howard quote which you added its not racist or discrimatory to
“We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.”
which you added “its not racist or discrimatory” to
Howard nuansed these words to exclude th words “subject to International Law” yet he damn well knew he had to abide by In THAT context Howards coment is corect
And you ignore Howard DID admit ALL boat “people” to australia as “refugees” , who did qualify as “refugees” under th imigration guidelines & International Law
I repeat , he did so !
Rudd is doing th SAME
So why ar you critising Rudd , but not Howard I’ve asked you this queston 3 times , silense
Where th Howard & Rudd govts actualy vary , is NOT regarding those boat people who qualify as a “refugee” , but th varianse in policys is th “humanity” (by Rudd) in how they & th processing of those people is conducted eg time of processing , separaton of kids , demonising boat people for politcal gain & divisivenes , tempory visa’s etc
Th actual processing still involves necessary health checks , record of criminal past , national security , and whether they ar a guenuine “refugee” etc
your case (of being personaly “moraly upset” at Rudd but not howard) may diminish if you actualy answered th queston I suggest
William
If Gusface is in the gun for mentioning cribbage I guess I am as well.
I apologise for my transgressions.
I think I best say good night and have read of my book before going to bed. Might dream of double runs and quadruple runs maybe even a hand of 29. Would love to get that one-day.
Night All.
and thx to Gary & Gus
“turning back the boats” is a practical impossibility. It is a rhetorical flourish that cannot be implemented without putting at risk the lives of the people in the boats. They cannot be towed back to Indonesia. They could be towed off into international waters and let loose. When they try again to re-enter Australian waters, you could sink the boats. You could throw the human cargo into the sea. But “turning them back” is just an empty phrase.
The alternative – put into place by Howard – is to use a series of legal devices to make sure boat people never legally arrive in “Australia” for the purposes of the Immigration Act. To do this, you have to intercept people, place them in detention and keep them there until you can figure out what to do with them. Most of those detained in the past in this way have been found to be refugees. Those found not to be refugees can be legally deported, and of course some who could not prove their identity were destined to remain in detention indefinitely – in legally stateless limbo.
Australia is a signatory to the Convention on Refugees and cannot lawfully turn away or imprison any person after they have been found to be a refugee. So even the policy of immediately and universally detaining people does not change their destination. It only changes the timing of things.
These are not matters of “left” or “right” ideology. They are matters of law and of the protection of human rights. These are universal and indivisible rights. This means that individuals, regardless of who they are or where they’ve come from, are entitled to be treated fairly according to the law. To the extent that the rights of people fleeing persecution are denied, we are all in some way diminished. This much at least has been learned from the horrors of WW2.
What HTT is advocating is that boat people – already exposed to great risk – should not only be deprived of their legal rights, but they should be exposed to even greater risk as a matter of public policy.
And why is he advocating this? For purely political purposes. As I say, the position of a fraud and a coward.
I am the first to put my hand up for not spelling correctly. However, it seems, more is on its way. A language expert claims traditional spellings may be overtaken by internet inspired spellings.
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/internet-spells-death-of-english-20100104-lq7s.html
My dear old granny taught us kids how to play Crib then spent a good part of the rest of her life resolving scoring disputes.
Australia makes it’s own laws not the U.N
Anyways the 1951 Refugee Convention is well and truly out dated and does not relate to our time.
Heres a good Australian Government paper dated 5 September 2000 written up on the matter and is a very good and informative read:
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/rp/2000-01/01rp05.htm
Some of the highlights:
In case no one else caught it and is interested, heard on (PM or Newsradio) this evening an interview about Indian students – commentator said India radio stations which stayed out of the previous brooha have found themselves losing audience numbers and they are the ones who have really jumped on the stabbing tragedy and are basically giving it the shockjock treatment sans facts – for ratings.
Fulvio #399 , thanks and yes
Howard did it.
Therefore it’s not impossible, but possible and proven.
We don’t need to tow them back into Indonesian waters, simply out into International waters. It’s worked well in the past and should be brought back into practice.
Rudd made a pledge 1 day before the last federal election to “turn back the boats”, he should fullfill this election promise rather than pussy footing around while another 10,000 boatpeople arrive on our door step.
Ron ‘Howard nuansed these words to exclude th words “subject to International Law” yet he damn well knew he had to abide by In THAT context Howards coment is corect’
THH
“Australia makes it’s own laws not the U.N
Anyways the 1951 Refugee Convention is well and truly out dated and does not relate to our time.”
Australia is a signature to th Conventon ! and howard did not withdraw from it , its th basis of “refugee”
Now to th queston , again , you dare not answer:
You ignore Howard DID admit ALL boat “people” to australia as “refugees” , who did qualify as “refugees” under th imigration guidelines & International Law
I repeat , he did so !
Rudd is doing th SAME
QUESTON So why ar you critising Rudd , but not Howard I’ve asked you this queston 3 times , silense
(Where th Howard & Rudd govts actualy vary , is NOT regarding those boat people who qualify as a “refugee” , but th varianse in policys is th “humanity” (by Rudd) in how they & th processing of those people is conducted eg time of processing , separaton of kids , demonising boat people for politcal gain & divisivenes , tempory visa’s etc)
Howard tried stopping the illegal boatpeople coming and was very successful.
Rudd is doing the opposite and trying to attract as many boat people as possible, and has been very successful so far.
Rudd needs to realise his mistake very quickly and go back to the old laws. Rudd could have learned something from the famous saying “If it aint broke, don’t fix it”.
He’s really screwed up on this one.
Ruddock himself acknowledges that “turning the boats away” is a furphy. If it was so easy, the Pacific Solution would have been unnecessary.
It goes without saying that the UN does not make laws for anyone, including Australia, which signed the Convention voluntarily. This is another deceptive trope intended to obscure the issue: this is about law and civil rights. It is precisely about preventing the arbitrary exercise of state authority – in this case, Australian vessels on the high seas – and subjecting the actions of government to the rule of law. Surely this is in the interest of every citizen, including the people of Tully.
Ron
Is this the TV news article to which you referred in previous posts as a statement by the ‘Chief Inspector’ ?
http://media.smh.com.au/attacks-not-racism–police-1012170.html
The only thing that is broke HTT is your record player.
The Convention was written in the aftermath of a the greatest war yet experienced, and in the knowledge that innumerable people had been made captive, enslaved and exterminated. It was also written in the knowledge that many had tried to flee this persecution and had been turned away – effectively, often literally, the “boats had been turned back” – as a matter of policy by many countries, including the Australia.
To say the Convention is outdated is simply disingenuous. Wars still rage. Property is still seized. Lives are still upended. People of all ages are still imprisoned, raped, tortured and executed. The abject still seek help and protection. In what possible sense can it be true to say the Convention is outdated? It may be inconvenient to some, but it is as necessary today as it was 59 years ago.
PY , no , sorry you wasted so much time looking for th wrong thing , all to vainly retrospectively reclaim an argument you’d long lost , and pointless further discussing it as you go in circles , caravan has moved on with you left behind , frustrated and lamenting
TTH
as you’ve failed to answer th qiueston on 4 ocassions I shall answer it for you
Howard admitted ALL boat people to oz who qualified as “refugees” under emigraton & international law , th conventon re a “refugee”
Rudd does th SAME
You do not wish to admit this because your selectiv critisism of Rudd rather than you critising both Rudd AND Howard on this point would look foolish , thereby FORSING you to justify what is actualy IS diferent between Rudds and Howards policys
and you know th reel diferense is Rudds policy treats th boat people themselves (regarding there rights re detenton , there processing time , separaton of kids ,how they depicted in MSN , demonizing boat people , no tempory visa etc which ar “humane” treatment) VS Howards treatment of th same people in these areas which ws “unhumane”
You TTH do NOT wish to defend Howards “unhumane” policy , so instead you present this nuanse myth that somehow Howard prevented th boat in xmas island to get to oz , whereas Rudd is letting them come , whereas th fact is as stated BOTH PM’s allowed ALL boat people to come from xmas island to oz who qualified as “refugee”
Howard used th same myth to th public in 2004 electon with th words ‘we will decide who comes here etc ” , ie that he was also like you implyin somehow he Howard was preventing th boat in xmas island to get to oz , when he was letting all found to be “refugees come
Now rudd exposed this myth in 2007 campaign and left Howard only one opton left to defend an “unhumane” policy , howard canny polly did not wish to do so and so boat people was not a key Lib 2007 electon issue (unlike 2004) so i understand why you like howard wish to perpetiuate th myth , and avoid defending howards unhumane boat people policy
THH , only reason stayed up late was to educates you so you use th true argument you hav , but if you do want to defend th Howards unhumane policy it may make you look unhumane
nite all
There is a segment on Channel 7 where
Deputy Police Commissioner Keiran Walsh says
I don’t believe there have been racially motivated attacks on Indians in the past.
The investigation needs to take its course.
The Deputy Commissioner’s statement relates to his “belief” in past events. It says nothing about any motive for this attack. He is open minded and awaits the investigation being carried out.
If it was the Channel 7 interview that you relied upon:
The DC simply does not assert in that interview:
*** a terrible tragedy of thugs attackin “anyone” of whatever racial origin who whapened to walked thru that deserted park that nite (post 310)
*** ( I KNOW what th Chief Inpector of Police investigating it said on TV tonite , and posted what he was basically sayin) {post 353}
*** ( Th Chief Inpector of Police also said th evidense indicated it was a random act of violense ) {post 353}
*** ( there was no evidense to suggest this was a racist crime (whch th Chief Inpector has also said)) { post 353 }
If it wasn’t this Channel 7 item that you were relying upon, and it was a different interview to the one shown on Channel 7 – then I would be pleased to know what TV channel news item you took your information from.
Ron
I will repeat this question 4 times over the next few days and if you don’t answer I will answer it for you. You know what my answer on your behalf will be. Anyway, we will go through the motions.
A very good article on Spencer up the pole, climate change and passive smoking.
Heiferman talks a lot of sense.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/hunger-strike-drives-further-wedge-into-coalition-20100104-lq7j.html
Some points.
From what I know Spencer owned the land for a number of years during which the native vegatation regrew, he then kicked up a fuss when told he could not clear the regrowth. The land out that way can be poor quality.
Seems more a case of wanting prime compensation for poor quality land.
Why on earth would anyone campaign against research linking passive smoking to cancer. Are there really people out there, besides Abbott that believe passive smoking, especially for kids confined in a car cannot do any harm?
On 1st January another giant step was taken in eliminating the curse of smoking when the display of cig packets was banned. Another step in a long campaign going back over 25 years that started with health warnings on cig packets.
With the pro smoking lobby putting its funding against climate change I would hope we are not in for a similar long campaign.
PY@242:
Unlike you, Vera has a sense of humour.
Unlike you, I can recognise a tongue in cheek comment when I see it.
My earlier comment stands. A nasty piece of work. Or Finns’ interpretation of it, more like.
A few people were complaining that the unions won’t rock the Labor vote earlier.
It appears that Labor is going to cop plenty from the unions about the watering down of the recommendations about executive pay. I should point out that no decision has actually been made yet, but I’d be very surprised if much happens.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/unions-lash-kevin-rudd-over-executive-pay/story-e6frg6nf-1225816086699
Have the Nationals done a leadership spill over the holidays. There’s a photo of Barnaby in full rant in an article entitled “Hunger strike drives further wedge into Coalition” The caption reads:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/hunger-strike-drives-further-wedge-into-coalition-20100104-lq7j.html
The kindest cut is man and his folly and frailty. The unkindest cut is why do we need another man’s phallic symbol. Size does not matter.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hsXCpgMSD2ZoFaw5zOnXMPCwdvuw
DIO – #429
If the proposal to impose wage restraint on executives is to be implemented by changes to the Corporations Law requiring pay rates to be set by shareholders at the AGM – then it is a joke. Most companies share registers are controlled by a few big institutionalised investors who control more than 50% of the voting rights. Hard to see them voting against the obscene salaries of their mates. If this is the proposal it makes good media releases (provided the staffers writing them get a few basic facts right) but will achieve f. all except a con the Australian people. Labor can run, but it can’t hide from the fact it has now become the party of choice of the big property developers.
Diog, this one is for you.
Since India is in the news, it serves to remind India itself that it has more strategic problem to solve than some media sensational stories racism in Australia against Indians. On the positive side, it probably will do more to “unite” India, otherwise they would go on to tear each other apart at every opportunity.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?263513
FINNS
Gillette disagrees.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvdMtamUTM4
Finns
I’ll give a cautionary tale about the murder of the Indian.
I looked after an 16 year old SE Asian girl who was set upon and set on fire on her way to school, or so it was reported in the media. There was public outrage (this was many years ago).
It turned out that she was mentally ill and had actually done it to herself.
Clearly the guy hasn’t murdered himself but it’s very dangerous to ascribe motive yet.
Considering the Commonwealth does not have the power to regulate incomes, do you have any better ideas?
Castle @ 427:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2010/01/03/quarterly-cumulative-newspoll-and-other-stories/comment-page-9/#comment-385708
Yes, fellow traveler and climate change denier, Nick Minchin.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/nick-minchin-was-a-sceptic-on-tobacco/story-e6frgczf-1225805535960
Note the mention of former Liberal Senator, Sue Knowles.
Perhaps this is a “Liberal” thing?
Briefly
Nationalise the corporations ?
#438
On a serious note. I don’t know at present. I would need to think about it. Usually every problem has a solution (if you want to find one) – it’s just a matter of thinking outside the square. It is alays easy to think of reasons why you can’t do something.
If in the end – there is nothing that can be done, then say so. Say it boldly and clearly. But please don’t hit the media with press releases saying what you are doing, hoping to massage the peoples concerns. That’s what I call conning the people. The shareholder vote method is a joke.
“Police are reluctant to draw a racial link to the murder, even though Mr Garg was not robbed and his belongings were left scattered the park where he was murdered.”
http://www.theage.com.au/national/please-help-me-im-dying-pleaded-knife-victim-20100104-lq5p.html
Hardly an opportunist theft then.
This is all compounded by the the failure to address the Indian students concerns attacks at all, initially – and then to take them seriously beyond that.
And the general rise in knife crime is also disturbing.
left e – #440
I share your concerns. I am really concerned by the attitudes of “do-nothings” and “sweep it under the carpet” brigade. My only reason for expressing concern that assaults may be racially motivated is because of personal knowledge of one such case in Sydney. Thus, the claims that there are no racially motivated assaults is pure bunkum.
We do not know yet whether this murder was racially motivated. The perpetrators have not yet been caught.
However for the “head in the sand” brigade to deny “as a fact” that this murder was racially motivated, is a very sad indictment on all Australians. Those people are an embarrassment to us all.
TheTruthHurts #414
Wrong again, Hurt by the Truth! Australia is bound by some UN conventions to which it is signatory – and has been, in some cases, since the UN’s Foundation in 1945.
There are, for example, war crimes cases against John Howard being proposed & drawn up over the Invasion of Iraq. My Google search “Case against Howard for war crimes” reveals pages of different articles (None, in the first 3 pages, from Australian MSM, which seem to be maintaining a conspiracy of silence!); eg: John Howard and War Crimes
The case for prosecution over Iraq War crimes is outlined in (among others) War Crime Case Against Tony Blair Now Rock-solid
The case against prosecution (esp of a USA president) is argued by Howard Schweber The Case Against Prosecutions
The SIEV X case also leaves Howard & responsible ministers liable to prosecution under much the older “Law of the Sea” – a convention which applies even in wartime, and for breaching which German & Japanese captains were prosecuted by post-war War Crimes Tribunals – inc by Australians.
In addition, as was proved in the Gordon-below-Franklin case (1983) and, if I remember rightly, over Qld sandmining in a case begun in the very early 1970s (over Cooloola Sands, then Fraser Is) and legislation finally passed by Mal Fraser’s Government in 1976, being signatory to a UN convention allows the Fed Government to override state governments. (a reference to Fraser’s decision @ http://www.coastshop.com.au/qldislands/fraser_is.htm
As usual, TTH, I recommend you do your research before embarrassing yourself in public!
PY
I don’t think anyone here is denying that there are attacks on people which are racially motivated.
lefty e’s first post seemed to be accepting everything said in the media at face value, without asking some of the basic questions one should ask when approaching any issue.
If you don’t identify the nature of the problem accurately, then you can’t solve it.
If we begin on the premise that all attacks on Indian students are racially motivated and that turns out to be a wrong premise, then the problem won’t be solved (and if it’s a perception problem, will probably just be aggravated).
If – as the paper referred to earlier suggests is possible, due to the fact that there seem to have been no similar assaults on Indian women – it’s a matter of behaviours, which place Indian students in unsafe situations, then that requires a different approach again.
If it’s purely perceptual, then again a different approach is needed.
As with all issues, it’s probably a mix of causes and needs a variety of responses.
I would suggest that the actions of both the Federal and State governments in relation to this issue suggests that they understand this and are working on real solutions, not knee jerk reactions.
Its called taking it seriously Zoomster. I take practically nothing from the media at face value – thats why I come to blog to dissect news.
But anyone who takes any bland reassurances from govt and VICpol that these attacks are not racially motivated would be naive.
eg “opportunist theft.” didnt survive the merest scrutiny of the crime scene.
I wish as much energy went into dealing with this as goes into assuring the public that “we’re alright Jack, no possible problems in our society”.
lefty e
does anything in my post above suggest not taking it seriously?
I also don’t think that either the State or Federal government can be accused of not taking it seriously, either.
Both Gillard and Brumby have travelled to India to consult with the Indian government on this issue. Both have talked on Indian media. There has been significant action by police.
I don’t know why you seem so eager to paint your fellow Australians, and your government, as racist and uncaring, which your willingness to leap to conclusions without examining the facts suggests.
Peter Young @ 432,
After informing us last night about how much smarter than the average bear you are, how about telling us how “you” think it should be handled and give us “your” considered solutions to this problem?
It would be much more appreciated than just snide, unfounded innuendo!
And what the blazes has “big property investors” to do with the Federal Government, pray tell?
What a strange over reaction.
OPT
The US President can opt out of any War Crimes Tribunal as they didn’t fully sign up to it. They can elect not to use that privilege and face the Tribunal if they want but it would be voluntary.
The good side of this is that the US can’t initiate any War Crimes prosecutions because, under reciprocity, whoever they try to prosecute can opt out.
Re Peter Spencer up a pole: dyspnoeia #430
But Barnaby hasn’t confessed that he was part of the government responsible for the legislation!
If ever a case was curiouser and curiouser it’s Peter Spencer’s! Searching the case, I found this gem from last year’s High Court hearing:
Latest Peter Spencer’s Court Decision (5 June)
Mr Spencer wants a Royal Commission into NSW’s Carr Government’s payment to/ bribery of the Commonwealth (Howard) Government to bring about the Native Vegetation regulations so that the Commonwealth could obtain the enrichment benefit of the carbon for KYOTO!
Mind you, this is only the latest of over 50 attempts by Spencer to get his many different cases – I can’t find how many have actually been.
Note that this is “Newsfront’s” SOS News, in the best Montana militia “government conspiracy theories” vein – included in a Political Junkie’s “Must read” list – and many of the “Constitutional” stances it takes (inc over Peter Spencer) are informed by the USA Constitution, not Australia’s federal & State constitutions. Spencer’s case bears more than a passing resemblance to some cases, mounted against foreclosing banks in the early 1990s, using Constitutional arguments irrelevant in Oz – there was a very widely reported Central Q one (?Marlborough) – and they all lost.
This is SOS-News’s take on Peter Spencer:
(Note: All errors in the original)
While the Howard Government’s legislation (which encompassed states’ earlier Native Vegetation regulations) appears to be a typical piece of Little Johnny’s high-handed “screw you” bastardry – Workchoices for farmers to meet Kyoto targets without reining in coal & power industries – and farmers should have been allocated at least some of the credits, Spencer’s addition of Carr bribed Howard to do it ensures that Liberals, ALP and Greens are unlikely to give in to his demands. If Barnaby’s Nats leave the Coalition, they might; but some Nats voted for Howard’s legislation!
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the Indian murder and attacks are racially motivated. I’m not sure what the Federal or State Governments can really do to reduce the occurrence anyway.
Apart from more police in areas frequented by the victims, providing plentiful of resources to the police to catch the criminals and strong condemnation by our leaders, what else can they do.
It’s not an SA issue (yet) but I believe that Vic and NSW have already done those things.
Regarding the murder of the India man.
If it wasn’t a robbery then it was either a random lunatic attack (unlikely), a racially motivated and oppotunistic attack (unlikely – Indians are a pretty inofensive lot and have been amongs us for generations) or some other personal motive.
Usually with murders if it is not the result of robbery/rape then it most often a personal motive. The attacker had some personal issue with the victim which either can be about money, women or some eaarlier confrontation.
I would first assume that the attacker would be another Indian with whom there were personal issues, then be looking amongs others of the victims social circle.
Dio #448 Is that still true? Is it posited on limited ratification of recent ICC rules?
Schweber’s argument in the HuffPost article:
does not imply certainty that Bush & Cheney can elude ICC prosecution, especially when there is now evidence that the attack on Iraq was planned Before the Twin Towers attack; which merely, along with (non-existet) WMD’s provided the excuse for the Iraq Invasion, much as the attack on a German radio station by supposed “Polish terrorists” provided the excuse for Germany’s 1 Sept 1939 invasion of Poland (as more than a few noted at the time).
The USA’s Balkans’ involvement may have undermined any “loophole” either the orginal agreements, or subsequent response to the ICC (which Howard “Me Too’d”) provided.
Although nothing should alter the case against Howard & relevant Ministers, Howard’s refusal to refer the Iraq Invasion to Parliament (??and to Cabinet, or ?just the Party Room) should offer some legal (though not moral) protection to the Nation and any government members not consulted, it does not protect himself.
Crikey, I just clicked onto this link to follow the Peter Spencer case and the picture of Barnaby jumped up and hit me right in the eye!
I don’t think Barnaby will be with us for much longer if he keeps this up. Take a look at his face. He looks far more rabid than old H!tler used to in his rally’s and looks like bursting a blood vessel at any moment!
http://www.smh.com.au/national/hunger-strike-drives-further-wedge-into-coalition-20100104-lq7j.html
I agree Diogenes that we need to focus on what government can reasonably do. I would make a few points on that though, as I dont think its has been up to scratch at all.
– they took ages to start taking it seriously, and only did when the Indian government got involved. That always smacked of indifference awoken by economic self-interest to a major export income industry. Imagine the action if someone started threatening coal exports.
- I think it interesting that VICpol acknowledges the rise in kinife crime, but spends an awful lot of time poo-pooing the idea of racially motivated violence. Whats the point of that? why did the VIC govt introduce racial vilification legislation a few years back if thats not a conceivable possibility? Its just pointless and silly, and appears defensive. Again, the impression is more concern over reputation than action.
- I dont know about NSW, but Im quite serious when I say I was in Melbourne 2 years before I even saw a cop on the beat. Im not the only person from QLD who sees Melbourne as some sort of Christiana free state a la Denmark. obviously, that comes with some positives for people like me who grew up in Bjelke’s Queensland. But there has to be a middle way. I do hope the rise of urban violence is shifting that.
I agree with TP that anti-Indian sentiment has never been a real force in Australia. But I think what is new is that Indian/ sub-continental nationality students are dominating the visible underclass of cheap urban labour (24 hour convenience, fast food, taxis). I wonder if that has made them a target for resentment among unemployed youth from permanent resident populations.
Also interesting is the assumption about that the perps are Anglos – I dont know why though. But its as interesting to note the other presumption that if the perps turn out to be from another ethnic minority, it would not be a reflection on “us”, or our society. Which of course, it still would be…
TP@451
The same thought crossed my mind, what if the attacker was also Indian?
What would the Indian press do then, apologise? i doubt it.
When you read something like this, the speed of implementation and the soundness of the Rudd Government’s strategy to ward off the effects of the GFC in this country should be applauded by everyone in the country.
The MSM and the opposition unfortunately, have done nothing but nay-say it and continually try and infer that vulnerability to the GFC was nowhere near as bad as was portrayed by the Government and that recovery would have happened without intervention.
The election of the Rudd Government couldn’t have happened at a better time IMO because I think that Howard, going on past practice, would have just held back hoping “market forces” would sort it out and we could have very well been in a diabolical situation right now!
http://www.theage.com.au/business/singapore-economy-shrinks-68-in-fourth-quarter-20100104-lp0m.html
There have been a few comments re lobbyists and Global Warming, , the Guardian in London has some stuff today, historically.
“If the stage is now set for the climate battle to begin, there is no shortage of combatants. A Center for Public Integrity analysis shows that, by the end of last year, more than 770 companies and interest groups had hired an estimated 2,340 lobbyists to influence federal policy on climate change. That’s an increase of more than 300 percent in just five years, and means that Washington can now boast more than four climate lobbyists for every member of Congress.”
Today an article from the head of the IPCC.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/04/ipcc-climate-sceptics-rajendra-pachauri
The link between tobacco denial and Global Warming denial is an important one, its all about greed and profitting at the expense of others suffering. We all tend to deny that we walk amoungst self interest daily. I remember a quote of Jungs, “I’ve only met 5 true psycopaths, unfortunately 3 of them were heads of State.”
Looking further into this Peter Spencer case, it is apparent that he had an opportunity to receive fair value for the property and just got a bit too greedy and missed the boat.
All the actions etc since then have been in an attempt to make up for that mistake in judgement.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/pursuing-his-case-through-courts-with-zeal-20100104-lq7k.html
Peter Young,
http://www.smh.com.au/national/fatal-decision-to-take-short-cut-through-park-20100104-lq7p.html
Dio is right! Lets all just calm down and leave it up to the authority authorised by the community to investigate matters such as this and not go off with all sorts of wild supposition!
http://www.smh.com.au/national/fatal-decision-to-take-short-cut-through-park-20100104-lq7p.html
How long do you reckon they waited for the ‘right’ photo for this article? And to think MSNBC is the ‘left wing’ cable news channel!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34693091/ns/us_news-airliner_security/
And in lighter news … play the baggage screening game
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34623505/ns/us_news-security/
Unfortunately, Gerard Henderson, usually reasonably moderate and sensible in his support for the Liberal Party, has delved down towards the gutter in trying to link the attack in Melbourne to the Rudd Government and Victorian Labor!
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/student-assaults-teach-some-harsh-lessons-about-racism-20100104-lq1i.html
Bolt was on the breakfast show on AW this morning talking about GW and he spoke of how cold the northern hemisphere’s winter is now in a manner as to say “Well there you are, the coldest in many years so GW doesn’t exist”. The breakfast boys lapped it up. Strange how when anyone making mention of our summers being extremely hot, therefore hinting that this indicates the effects of GW, Bolt poo poos the idea. What a hypocrite this man is.
allegory @ 461!
Unfortunately the media in this country are not too far behind and the longer the Coalition spend in opposition, the worse I expect it will get.
It would be interesting to know to what extent this move is also contributing to the slow demise of much of the MSM in both the US and here.
Normal, thinking people are surely reacting in a negative way to tripe such as this?
lefty e
Alternatively, it may have been obvious to the police that the crimes were not racially based and therefore did not need special treatment.
The reaction of the Indian government could also be seen as political – they were being urged by parents etc to do something.
Again, why do you automatically assume Australia is in the wrong here?
It suggests you’re one of those people who carry around a load of white guilt.
Every nation on earth has its share of racists. Fear of the stranger is a common human trait.
Perhaps, again, because one is supported by evidence and the other isn’t. From that viewpoint, there’s nothing contradictory in the police acknowledging one and not the other.
And were they necessary, where you were? Were you in danger because they weren’t there?
Having cops visible in places where there is no danger is simply wasting resources. I’ve seen plenty in Victoria, mainly where there are big crowds – soccer matches, demonstrations.
Victoria is the safest state in Australia, and the crime rates are going down, so this suggests that they’re doing something right.
http://www.invest.vic.gov.au/050609VictoriaremainssafeststateinAustralia
What rise? Urban violence is on the decline, mainly because of targetted police action in problem areas.
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=16765
More importantly, it means that they are working in high risk occupations. 24 hour convenience stores and taxis have always been targets for robberies. That’s why both have high levels of security compared with other similar activities.
It also means they’re more likely to be working late night shifts and thus heading home in the early hours of the morning, a high risk time to be on the streets no matter what your sex or colour.
We haven’t had much speculation on that here, except perhaps from Troothy. We don’t know who the perps were. However, given that Anglos make up the bulk of society, it is statistically more probable that they were.
But the skin colour of the perps may have no more relevance than the skin colour of the victims. (On the other hand, both may be important!)
Diogs et al are right – let’s not rush to judgement here.
scorpio – #459
I see that you get the quote:
” Attacks not racism: police
After the stabbing of Nitin Garg in a West Footscray park, police say recent attacks against Indians are not race-related.”
from the words appearing below the video of the interview with the Deputy Commissioner.
Congratulations on your ability to cut and paste !!!!
Your cut and paste however does not progress any further the discussion regarding the claim made by one poster last night that the Chief Inspector (read as Deputy Commissioner) said the murder was NOT racially motivated. Actually listening to the video, you will not hear the DC say anything like that. He ascribes no motivation, either positive or negative, to the murder.
If the purpose of your cut and paste was to show that the DC said the words last nights poster claimed, your purpose has failed. Those words are the words of a SMH copywriter, who like the poster from last night does not appear to have listened to the DC’s words.
Hmmmmm, “rushing to judgement” – coming from Diog, it is a little rich here.
scorpio #464
My initial reaction to this sentence (before I read further) was The longer the Coalition spend in opposition, the more irrelevant the MSM gets.
Then I read further & saw you typed much the same!
What I expect will be the Brit’s Save the BBC from Cameron’s Tories & Murdoch campaign, should enhance the alternative news sources – virtual Online Newspapers – Aunty Beeb has been for quite a while and Aunty ABC is rapidly becoming, as well as increasing Online interactive sources of new and critical analysis. The faster the better IMO!
Happy new year everyone adn sorry to join this thread late. I was intrigue to notice that there is now a quarterly aggregate newspoll which presumably includes the mystery unpublished polls we noiced in November and December. has anyone anyalysed by difference what those results might have been? Anyway, as suspected, there has been no Abbott bounce.
As for climate change, I have two policy suggestions:
- we at least need to stop making things worse, so no new coal pwoer stations without “clean coal’ technology proven to work. That will effectively mean no new coal power stations
- we should adopt tighter standards for new buildings, cars, electronics etc to minimise emissions. We don’t have to reinvent them either. Many other jurisdictions have good standards in this respect. We coudl adopt European car emission rules for example. The harmonisation of standards would also be good for our exporters.
Scorpio @ 453
http://www.smh.com.au/national/hunger-strike-drives-further-wedge-into-coalition-20100104-lq7j.html
I don’t know if you’ve read Germaine Greer’s little book ‘Anger’, but it begins with a description of Barnaby’s mate, Bob Katter, in full-flight anger mode addressing parliament. Regardless of what you think of where the book wandered in subsequent chapters, it is a very telling description, both of Katter, and of anger.
Peter Young,
Check my post @ 460 and you will see another example of cut & paste! It may also pay you to “read” it!
polyquats – #470
Are Barnyard and the Mad Hatter mates?
sscorpio #471
Dio is right. At least you and I agree on that.
So pray tell what was your purpose in addressing to me #459 – which is a cut and paste of words which indicate quite the opposite to Dio’s statement. The words you cut and paste indicate that the Police have already ruled out racial motives. They haven’t.
I wonder what Bolt and the rest of the sceptics/deniers will make of this?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/05/2785653.htm
OPT
Yes it’s still the case that the US isn’t bound to the ICC, although Bush could elect to be prosecuted if he wanted to.
It’s more of a legal problem if a signatory country puts out a warrant for his arrest and he visits that country.
Finns
You’ve got to know when to hold ‘em, when to fold ‘em and when to show ‘em.
Peter Young,
What the devil are you on about? I never made any claim that the police have ruled “in” or “out” the proposition that the attack was racially motivated.
The quote I “pasted” never claimed that it “has” been ruled out only that recent attacks on people do not seem to have a racial basis to them!
Note the word “recent” highlighted by me! Nowhere in that quote did it make “any” claim as to whether it was racially motivated or not. It just said that “recent attacks are not race-related!”
This “latest” attack may well have been! We don’t know at present and the police understandable are keeping an open mind on it and are currently investigating the matter.
In good time we may know the full circumstances behind it. It may very well fit the pattern of the recent attacks which the majority have been found to be “not” race-related but have other causes!
scorpio- #477
So what was your purpose in quoting that headlne at me in #460? I have never claimed that attacks on Indians in Victoria were race related (although I don’t turn a blind eye to the possibility that they may have been – just as the DC rather than ruling out past assaults as race related actually says he doesn’t believe they are race motivated). I have said that one attack in Sydney on an Indian was race related. Thus the possibility of others.
They will say it means nothing because it’s so cold in the northern hemisphere. It can’t possibly be cold in the northern hemisphere in winter if AGW was occurring, or some rubbish like that.
Diog, one
for you and one 
for Malcolm for being under the Tree Knowledge. May the wisdom be always with you.
Dio:
Don’t forget the most important:
Amigo Vera, the grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring is aint finished yet. Tiger is on the prowl again:
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/people/tiger-woods-strips-for-vanity-fair-photo-shoot-20100105-lr6w.html?autostart=1
He used to say the planet was cooling. Now he’s reduced that to half the planet.
That’s gotta be progress in anyone’s book.
Of course if it’s because the Gulf Stream has gone cold (as they say it could, due to the Greenland ice melt causing a layer of fresh water to impede its flow) then we’re all in the $hit.
A few people have suggested that the race of the perpetrators attacking Indians is relevant – are non-Anglo attackers not “Australian” or not “our” problem?
Without knowing too much about the situation it would seem likely that many of the attacks result from Indian students being vulnerable or seen as easy targets. In part that can be a racial assumption ie I’m more likely to get away with attacks on Indian students, but in part it also reflects the fact that students are traveling and working at night, walking rather than having a car etc. Hence the problem for the police to combat the attacks and also to describe the motivation od attackers.
Andrew Bolte should check out various articles about the effect Global warming will have on the Gulf Stream, like this one from the Times online from may 2000
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article520013.ece
scorps,
You’re engaged in one of those futile conversations with a pedantic moron. When you provide an answer they change the question, They’re constantly on the look out for alleged inconsistencies which are usually no more than the confusion they have generated for themself. They get offended when you call them on their stupidity.
All this simply to keep the conversation going.
In short you are being stalked by the time wasting troll. Treat it with the contempt it deserves.
What a load of crap!
SIEV X was out in International waters in INDONESIA’S search and rescue zone.
Why do the left always want to talk about Siev X anyways which was almost 10 years ago, but they never want to talk about the boat explosion back in April or the drownings back in October?
Why is that?
Peter Young,
I’ve got to give you credit for leaving your self wriggle room in subsequent posts when you are found wanting in previous ones! As per this one!
By your insistence that a particular poster was “wrong” in insisting that the attack was “not” race-related, you were effectively saying the opposite that it “was”! You then go on to give support to this by including the following which I highlighted above!
And then cover yourself by statements such as the following!
All in all I would suggest that your attachment to the Melbourne assault issue was nothing more than an attempt to quickly distance yourself from your badly thought-out venture into the “motive” discussion re the boat explosion as well as the “attack” motive, which went horribly bad for you.
At least Troothy had the sense to withdraw from it as soon as it was evident that he was arguing a lost cause!
Greensborough Growler @ 486,
Snap!
You got it exactly right!
Scorpio – 488
That is sheer and utter bull emissions. And I believe you know it.
I would love you to run that past an expert in logic.
Your animalistic tribal instincts have kicked in and got the better of your sense of judgment.
Does anyone know where Melbourne Ports Labor MP Michael Danby currently is?
His “Number 1 Cockiest Wanker of the Century” trophy has just arrived, and we need to find him so award him his much deserved prize, well done Mr Danby!
Some highlights of Mr Danby’s award winning performance as follows:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/mp-labels-island-detention-centre-a-waste-of-money-20080708-3bwi.html
…
Well done Mr Danby, a prize very well deserved!
Poor Troofy. At first I wished there was a rule about being banned for stupidity, but I must say the amount of dopey rope you’ve coiled round your neck has my hat off to William’s moderation.
Off topic – another 97 for the greatest no. 8 ever to open the batting for Australia!
While you’re around TTH Danby has no hope of winning it.
Hows that Christmas Island Science and Research Centre plan coming along?
The tent sales business has certainly taken off on Christmas Island though, must be making a killing.
pancho,
I know Christmas has passed. But, I think your observation falls under the heading of “There ain’t no Sanity Clause” to post on PB.
Exhibit A as to why that award is safe with TTH.
PY @ 490,
LOL!!!;-)
“Again, why do you automatically assume Australia is in the wrong here?
It suggests you’re one of those people who carry around a load of white guilt.”
Or I’m not hung up about admitting my country has a few problems, and can be improved.
Peter Young,
This article by Barry Cohen “Sack the NSW Labor executive before it’s too late ” should be right up your alley!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/sack-the-nsw-labor-executive-before-its-too-late/story-e6frg6zo-1225816066089
scorpio -# 499
Thanks for that reference. I don’t read the Australian newspaper and without your help I would have missed that article.
Michael Clark, can you please stop being a celebrity and start being a cricketer once again. where the bloody is your brain?
Finns – harsh, but with an element of truth no doubt.
there is a hell missing here
scorpio – #499
I could have written that article myself. I know little of Barry Cohen but he sounds like a sensible chap.
lefty e wrote :
Why not just wait for some facts to emerge before casting judgement ?
The attacker could have been out his (?) mind on drugs or someone with a
mental disorder. We just do not know at present.
Heres some racist attacks in Melbourne caught on CCTV camera:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF_K-NfcJe4
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5K0hVJrct8
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ouQDo1lr80&feature=related
Please take note of the offenders and report any information on these thugs to the police if you have any information.
Scorpio@489:
Yup. GG called it a while ago, and I’ve been trying to get the message through to youse all as well:
PY is a scroll through, like HTT.
Or stfu if you are that way inclined.
Their posts are there purely to get a reaction, like under the bridge dwellers.
Don’t give the so and sos oxygen.
don – #507
I can feel your pathological dislike of me.
I won’t tell others what I think of you. That would be rude and Gary Bruce would be highly offended.
I suspect if you did know more, you’d change your mind.
Also, as I’ve said before, those of you who say you have decided to ignore other commenters would do a lot better to just do it, rather than make public announcements of the fact. Most of you are more like your antagonists than you would like to admit.
Finns
I think it’s time for Noth to go South!
Another story about people from the Sub-Continenty – this time from OY’s patch – bet he’ll link this to his pet subject
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/05/2785927.htm?section=justin
Finns
It’s time Clarke was given an ultimatum; give up Lara Bingle or quit Test cricket.
And I’ll back up my comment with a photo.
http://www.topnews.in/files/Lara-Bingle3.jpg
Diog
With THAT on his mind it’s a wonder he scores ANY runs!
“Why not just wait for some facts to emerge before casting judgement ?
The attacker could have been out his (?) mind on drugs or someone with a
mental disorder. We just do not know at present.”
Well Dave, the Acting premier was talking about “opportunist crime” before the blood was dry – turns out the victim wasn’t even robbed, which VICPol must have known later that night, well before the acting prem spoke. Did he “wait for facts”? No.
Here’s more: and it broadly supports the idea that Indian students may be forming a new economic underclass, subject to to the same racialised resentments of the old “competitive / economic racism” sort.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/05/2785927.htm
Note also that “Victoria Police are also investigating the assault of an Indian man at a fast food outlet in Melbourne on the same night that Mr Garg died.”
Diog, if that is so. He MUST take both
and BK, yep, North to Alaska, Siberia is too good for him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSt0NEESrUA
BB @ 483
To do that the GS would have to have reversed direction – and, while there’s evidence (in accounts of voyages) currents do reverse, I haven’t seen any statement that this has occurred.
BTW, in C18 accounts, there was often a rush to finish the harvest (October) before the first frost, England was regularly snowed in well before Christmas, sometimes in mid November; occasionally earlier (and the calendar wasn’t moved forward 12 days – and only 12 – until Sept 1752!). To the best of my knowledge, the last winter when anyone knowledgeable predicted the Thames’ freezing, was either 1961 or 62; but it didn’t happen. It hasn’t frozen since 1814; although it had done so frequently since the beginning of C15. Bolt deserves a nomination for the Sceptics’ Society’s Bent Spoon Award.
lefty #515
Simon Crean has issued the official Party line on the subject. I don’t think there is now anything more that can be done.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/05/2785592.htm?section=australia
Hey HTT,
If thats the case then then I nominate you for “prize dickhead” of 2010 hands down!!
And its oly early January. Tony Abbott might have a crack at tough!
So the WA government refuses to use WA taxpayer dollars to guarrantee worker entitlements, but the federal coalition thinks its okay for all Australian taxpayers to do so? Is this what we’d see from a Liberal government federally – rushing to bail out every family-owned business enterprise in the country?
Bilbo, basic Communcations 101 that every university must study for making Presentation: “You tell them what you are going to tell them, then you tell them, and then you tell them what you have told them”.
Dont they teach you the Presentation skills anymore in PhD?
[It’s time Clarke was given an ultimatum; give up Lara Bingle or quit Test cricket.
And I’ll back up my comment with a photo.
http://www.topnews.in/files/Lara-Bingle3.jpg
Well Dio there goes test cricket.
Did you bother to watch the videos I posted?
Ethnic gangs are running rampant in Melbourne, this is where the problem lies.
Taking my bitch to the park to meet up with her friends Cooper, Tyson, Gizelle, Nina and Kangi.
Why should either the WA Govt or the Rudd Govt pay the worker’s entitlements for a failed private company?
Diog, i think we all got an apology to make to Clarky and his fellow cricketers.
Apparently, Three is paying $3000 per wicket today, the Pink Day, for the Ohhh Ahhhh McGraw Foundation. I salute them for their great spirit, scarifying their own personal glory for a good cause. What a bunch of great guys.
Privatise profits, socialise losses.
confessions,
Nah! Only the ones run by their mates and rellies! ie Stan Howard, the ethanol mob etc!
This explains the recent steep rises in electricity in WA. Reading between the lines here, it would seem that this mob have been underpricing both the coal and power for a considerable time or are trying to get out before any ETS comes into force and starts to really add to their costs!
The whole thing seems fishy to me!
http://www.smh.com.au/business/wa-backs-out-of-griffin-workers-bailout-20100105-lrjm.html
Peter Young
#466
“scorpio Your cut and paste however does not progress any further the discussion regarding the claim made by ONE POSTER last night that the Chief Inspector (read as Deputy Commissioner) said the murder was NOT racially motivated “
You ar a liar I never said that at all Don continues to be proved right saying ‘you ar a piece’
What I said was th Chief Inpector indicated there was no evidense to suggest it was a racist murder , which obvously was based on evidense he had to date
On that same nite , lying next to th deceased Indian Mr Garg was ANOTHER random knife attacked victum , non Indian , stabbed 6 times
Any sensible person even looking at Scorpio’s referense can see that Police were indicating there was no evidense indicating it was a racist based attack at all on numbers of indians here (from a direct queston) NB/ Th police did not comment at all if they’d ruled anything out & never do , obvously But unlike ½ wits do follow th evidense
http://www.smh.com.au/national/fatal-decision-to-take-short-cut-through-park-20100104-lq7p.html
QUOTE FROM DECEASED INDIAN MR GARG HIMSELF:oz 5/1/09)
‘Deputy Police Commissioner Kieran Walshe denied Melbourne was a hot bed for racial violence. “I don’t believe that there has been any really detailed racist motives around assaults on Indian people in the past,” he said.
“In India, a very different interpretation was taken, The Times of India reporting this was “the first death in a slew of vicious attacks on the (Indian) community members”.
Indian newspaper Times of India said “Mr GARG had in the past repudiated any racial motive in attacks on Indians when asked by his family”
QUOTE FROM MR GARGs flate mate and friend (th age 5/1/09)
“Police are reluctant to draw a racial link to the murder, even though Mr Garg was not robbed”…and then.
“ Mr (Parminder) Singh (a housemate & friend on Nitin Garg) who was close to the Punjab native , could accept for th moment , that there was little evidense to suggest a racial attack , but wondered at th level of knife violence in Melbourne , having also seen the agony of a Non Indian victim , who stabbed (6 times) on th same night his friend died”
vs
PY factless ANTI POLICE POSTS
upset at my posts that there was no evidense there was a racist evidense to suport his extreme politcal corect views
Peter Young
#320
“The cops aren’t going to bother to search for the truth – too much hard work. They are happy to get a “conviction” and move onto the next case (or go down the pub)”.
SUMARY
It may turn out this murder was racist based when all evidense is found but there is no evidense to say so now as I hav said Police indicate there is no evidense to date to indicate a racist murder Further th Victum (Garg) does NOT believe prevous murders were eirther AND his best friend (Singh) at this time does NOT see any racist evidense either VS PY view of Police , and his assistanse in credability to th Indian Govt/media frenzy beatup , ie against oz natonal intersts , good one
lefty e @ 498
And neither am I, matey. Been the subject of more racial abuse than I bet you ever have, so would be the last to deny that racism exists.
But, unlike you, I didn’t rush to judgement. From your very first post, you made a lot of assumptions on the issue, all negative towards Australians and their government.
Only a very little research, the kind a university academic should regard as almost second nature, a quick google and a bit of reflection might have painted a different picture.
But you didn’t bother to go to the effort to see if your assumptions were backed up by any facts at all, which suggests you didn’t want your beliefs tested.
And you still don’t. You’d still rather think that anyone who is looking at this topic objectively, in the light of the evidence available, is in denial (or a party hack, or whatever).
Which suggests that you have some sort of problem even contemplating that the attacks might not be racist and that the government is working to allay the fears of the community.
I’ve given you at least three references to support my statements. You’ve given none.
As an academic, who is more likely to be right here?
PY@508:
Nope. I just don’t give a damn.
There are too many great people in the world, including many on this board, to worry about the idiots.
Life’s too short.
GB@522:
Why didn’t someone tell me that cricketers looked like that?
Maybe there’s something in the game after all!
Isn’t she wearing the pads in the wrong place?
Winston@534:
Pads? What pads?
Finns
I hope you’re watching Chadar: The Ice Trail on ABC tonight. I’ve been reading a few books about Tibet. Your Chinese friends have a lot to answer for.
I think you will be shocked as I was at the staggering number of boat people that have been coming….see page 2.
Where were the defenders of border protection?
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferguson/14614278/18520600/00000012/1-8.pdf
I was listening to a podcast of that great RN program All in the Mind on the way home today, and just had to grab this quote from the transcript to share with you all. When I heard it, it brought to mind instantly a certain participant in the discussions here and his/her/its outburst earlier in this thread on ‘queue jumpers’. In deference to William’s 509, I won’t give him/her/it oxygen by naming him/her/it, or further responding to the aforementioned discussion.
The quote is from Marc Hauser, who was in a discussion with Martin Seligman, the Dalai Lama and of course, Natasha Mitchell.
Transcript and audio here http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2009/2766868.htm#transcript
Ron #530 to py
“extreme politcal corect views”
Zoomster #531
to Lefty
“Which suggests that you have some sort of problem even contemplating that the attacks might not be racist and that the government is working to allay the fears of the community.”
Lefty is similar but not extreme in politcaly corect views , and that is th problam , there PRE consepton decision of an issue to suit there pre conseived ideas
Diog, it’s the bloody Indian:
Has Barnyard really upset the Comrades?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2010-01/05/content_9268241.htm
Happy gnu ears, Bludgers. Have only just had a chance to skim your most recent comments, etc. and noticed some opinion on the dreadful killing of the chap from India, Nitin Garg, not 5 minutes from where I live.
The same night, I presume a Skip, was stabbed 6 times in Fitzroy.
As I was having a bit of scratch your head conversation with himself indoors about these events. It truly is a Wisconsin Tourist Federation thing for me as to why people would be picking on Indians in particular, and none of my Indian mates has said anything about being particularly frightened. Well, apart from the usual threat we are under from the people we deal with.
Anyway, a friend who’s married to an Indian who’s done a lot of research in the Justice system, phoned to say, among other things, that there’s some grief going on between different groups from different parts of India, and he was particularly jaundiced about the reporting in both the Oz and Indian press of these events.
It doesn’t make sense to me for this particular attack to be particularly racial. Honestly, around here if you going to be attacked by someone outside your family, it’s probably going to be by someone from another culture.
It’s what it’s like here and mostly we’re O.K.
Less hysteria is what I’d like to see.
I used to live in Collie(believe it or not) quite a few years ago(early 1990′s).
Much to my surprise looking at the town on google maps it looks exactly the same as it did back then and still run down.
It’s amazing to think this is the town that creates a large part of WA’s wealth and yet they have been quite literally shafted by the state government for years. A similar thing is happening here in Queensland with all the money that North Queensland creates via the hard work of the miners up here are ripped away by the State government and pissed away on yet another Brisbane bypass road, bridge or tunnel.
How bout rather than raping and piliging the hard working mining towns of this country, we invest at least a few crumbs of that money back into OUR local infrastructure rather than saying thanks very much and taking more than your fair share?
Libs and Greens combine in vic upper house to block Labor Govts urban fringe plan for 150,000 new homes , th future
total Infrastructre costs for such big project over 20 years estim 13.5 billion , and Govt was going to levy a infrastructure tax on those homes of about 2 billion , 15% of total costs , 650 per year per home
Libs oppose as don’t like th infra tax so still do not like infrastructure a la Howard , and Greens oppose as dont like th loss of grasslands involved , so ? potential 150,000 new home owners instead hav to live in co2 premium 50 story skyscrapers
yet those greens ar living now in homes that may hav been prev grassland , and yet those libs ar living in homes with prev built infrastructure that tax payers paid for anyway
OPT@517:
No, it doesn’t have to reverse.
All that has to happen is that it takes a short cut across to africa instead of going via the British Isles and France.
And that is what has been happening.
Cold is the absence of warmth. Britain is at 50 to 60 degrees north latitude, at about the same latitude as Moscow.
The main reason it is warmer than Moscow (though just being close to the sea is a tempering effect on cold. Moscow is in the middle of a continent) is because of the Gulf Stream. Take that away, and you’ve got problems.
The short cutting by the Gulf Stream got a lot of publicity some years ago, but nobody has been talking about it much recently.
This is from 2005:
Heres an idea.
Cut immigration. We solved our water restrictions, transport issues and housing shortages all at the same time. Simple.
You better find a way to stop people breeding if you think you are going to halt demand on those services by just cutting immigration.
Australia has a natural growth rate of about 0.1%.
People breeding isn’t the problem, it’s the 300,000 new immigrants we invite in every year.
Scrapping the Baby Bonus for a start, but hang on wasn’t it introduced by Troothy’s Hero Unca Howie and Hammock Man ?
By the way, you’ve gotta laugh at the way journalists don’t quite understand science, from my post at 545:
Somebody just looked up a scale of celsius and fahrenheit, and since 5C is about 40F rounded, they stuck it in.
A difference of 5C is a difference of 9F.
Don,
Part of the reason that emphasis was changed from “global warming” to “climate change”!
The British media has long engaged in a major educational campaign of their readership and hence the population and give scant regard to sceptics and deniers.
This page from the Times on Line gives a good sample and it is easy to access earlier archived material also. The BBC web site is even better.
With this country standing to be affected to a substantial degree in the opposite to Britain and Europe, I feel that our media ars doing the people of Australia a big dis-service by not following suit and running a contrary campaign just to prop up a hopeless Opposition and their corporate mates.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/related_reports/the_future_of_energy/
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/internet-spells-death-of-english-20100104-lq7s.html
Ron has already done it
A very large amount of rain falls all the time on the hot equator, most of it falling over the oceans. Thus the surface waters of the equatorial oceans are relatively warm, low in salinity & density.
This water moves slowly and erratically north, radiating heat into its surroundings, being affected by evaporation and becoming more saline & dense.
By the time the North Atlantic surface water gets to about Svalbard (north of Scandinavia), its temperature (relatively low) and salinity & density (relatively high) mean that it descends into the depths- becoming the North Atlantic Deep Water which then moves back south to the equator. Here in various places (like off the west coast of South America and West Africa’s Saharan coast) it upwells again, to be diluted & warmed by rainfall/sunlight.
This thermohaline (temperature/salinity) gradient is what drives the worlds’ oceanic circulation, that does such a good job of distributing heat as evenly as possible across the planet.
Adding large amounts of heat and or fresh water to the polar waters could easily weaken or destroy this gradient, which in turn would weaken/destroy the circulation of heat globally. The tropics would be utterly torrid, with a very sharp transition between that zone and much colder regions.
As an aside, the technical term for an ocean system with no real thermohaline gradient is a Strangelove Ocean. I can’t remember why- something to do with the devastation such a change would wreak on our oceans…
Ron – #530
Ron, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think you know the meaning of what you just said. I would suggest you take extreme care when making similar statements in the future.
Ron said #310
Ron said at #353
Ron said at # 362
Ron NOW says at #530
If you listen to the Channel 7 segment as shown on the SMH website the Deputy Commissioer of Police makes no reference to evidence in the murder investigation. He does not indicate a lack of evidence in the murder case relating to motive. The DC does not give any opinion as to whether the murder was racially motivated or a random act.
Diog, i want to know where the cameraman(men) were or was it just a very editing job.
If TTH wants someone to look after him in the old folks home he had better hope that not too many people take note of his his comments on immigration.
Truthy
I hate to tell you, but mining contributes about 12% of GSP in QLD.
Well said fredn @ 556! Large scale immigration to this country has been the best thing that has happened in my lifetime, both because we are now spared the boring as bat guano meat and three vegetables culture we used to have, and because the TTHs and other narrow minded old fashioned Alf Garnett-channelling bigots are slowly but surely being outnumbered by New Australians.
PY
in this case Ron is not wRONg.
Ron does not say that the DC said he had any evidence at all, but that the DC’s statements would have been based on any evidence he may have.
Which might be a bit difficult for you to follow, so try this:
The DC has all the evidence there is about the case at the moment.
The DC made no statement about motive.
Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that there is, as yet, no evidence which suggests a motive.
Don’t blame Ron for your lack of comprehension abilities. If I can work out what he means, so can you.
don #545
There certainly was a great deal on the Gulf Stream after, in late Oct/early Nov 2003, ?BBC/Channel 4 aired a major (& academically respectable) research project & computer modelling predictions on GS reversal as a factor in cyclical N Hemisphere climate changes. When, a year later, the GS “apparently” (quotation marks, sic around synonyms in several articles I re-read – there seems to be no real proof that it did, but I’ll stand corrected on that) stopped for over a week – in ways which suggested some “cherry picking” of parts of the 03 thesis, especially the impact of Polar ice’s melting, inc on slowing GS – there was another flurry ; but further publicity was pretty much wiped out by the Tsunami of publicity over & paradigm which became dominant through Al Gore’s An Inconvenient Truth and Lord Stern’s review.
Since then, as you noted, there seems to be little around. In particular, there seems to have been nothing around about GS speed around the time of the NH hurricanes in Katrina’s summer 2005. Those hurricanes should, according to the cold=slowing; heat=quickening thesis have speeded up the GS; suggesting that, as with climate data, sea-water, current etc, data need to be considered in the light of long-term trend-lines (& these don’t seem to exist – again, I’ll stand corrected) as well as short-term data.
The Gore/Stern tsunami has effectively limited alternative views, effective criticism of competing paradigms, research away from the accepted paradigm, research funding for research outside the dominant paradigm (except, I’m told, in paleo- & archeological research) and open web publication (tho there’s a lot on closed networks, papers, discussion groups etc) – a situation which, one day, may rival the C19 & later attempts to block Huxley, Darwin & colleagues, and much earlier attempts to suppress the activities and work of astronomers Copernicus, Galileo, Brahe, Kepler etc. Post Gore/Stern, Climate Change has taken on some of the worst aspects of religious obsession & intolerance.
As the chair of a lecture I attended in the UK said, when there is, as yet, no possible way of dealing with enough concrete data facts or absolutes required for proof – whether in astronomical & space/time theory (the lecture’s substance) or climate change (it was a few days after the GS TV presentation & A Hot Topic), an intelligent person accepts that a theory and computer model based on it might be totally correct, totally crap, or anything in between.
I’d add (as usual), in CC, that Earth deserves the benefit of the doubt; and we all benefit if the effects of pollution and land, air & water are neutralised.
We also have to remember that there have been very sudden & sharp changes in Earth’s climate – the last about 10,000 years ago, heralding the beginning of the cooler, drier Neolithic period – only some of which are attributable to meteor strike.
zoomster – #559
I am still unable to see how:
Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that there is, as yet, no evidence which suggests a motive.
fits with Ron’s statement that:-
Th Chief Inpector of Police also said th evidense indicated it was a random act of violense
and I guess I will never know.
Finns
I thought it was a bit tough when those Zanskari guys said they wouldn’t send their kids to Melbourne because of the murder.
You can do the Chadar Ice Trek as an adventure trek.
http://www.project-himalaya.com/jladakhtrek-chadar.html
Diog, it always a wonder to me how in most of the “animal/nature” shows that there is always a dead animal or two for the other animals to chomp on.
Really? Tell that to Bolt and his acolytes.
Certainly not in Australia, certainly not in the latter years of Howard, when climate change scientists had their proposals knocked back with no feedback as to why.
Climate change has become a trendy research topic, but only after years of it having to be presented as something else entirely different if you wanted to be funded.
You would have also thought that the more research happening on a topic, the more likely flaws in the theories would emerge. Instead, the more intense the research, the more evidence is discovered to support the theory.
You really should read the internet more. There is plenty of obsession and intolerance amongst the sceptics. The scientific consensus is that there’s a problem. They’re not particularly fanatical about it, they’d rather there wasn’t one, but inconvenient facts keep getting in the way.
OK, so someone whose knowledge of climate change science matches the average climatologist’s knowledge of space/time theory thinks there’s not enough evidence. If a climatologist said there wasn’t enough evidence to support Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, would you be questioning Einstein?
An intelligent person studies what the experts in the field are saying and thinking – and finds that the theories behind climate change are supported by evidence gathered from several fields of science. The theory of climate change is up there with Darwin’s theory of evolution for acceptance in the scientific community, and like it covers so many different disciplines that any major flaws would be glaringly obvious by now.
Why? And more importantly, why do you believe this?
You believe it because climatologists have researched past climates and published their information, which has been accepted by the scientific community. Exactly the same scientists are now saying that a very different kind of climate change is occuring. If you believe them in one case, why don’t you believe them in another?
PY @ 561
If you keep changing what you say you’re talking about, you will never know.
I always love it when the anti-science mob brings up Einstein, Galileo etc as examples when science is suppressed.
They seem to forget that AGW has taken exactly the same path as all paradigm shifts in science and that they are the Luddites sticking to the old ways.
A couple of angry old cranks with no scientific credibility like Plimer don’t constitute a Galilean new way of thinking. They are the Pope trying to suppress the heliocentric universe years after everyone it has been accepted.
This is probable been noted before but it is the first time I have seen it:
http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/MalcolmsBlogs/tabid/105/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/710/Copenhagen-and-an-ETS.aspx
The Iceman Cometh . Iceland has gone feral:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6041RB20100105
If it doesnt pay up, Iceland could put out in the cold.
Finns
When was the last time a Western country defaulted on its debts
Bet the usual suspects will attack this
It would interefere with operational requirements of Police to expect otherwise.
Sharon Burrows has a great idea to fix obscene executive salaries. She suggests a higher tax rate for salaries over $1million. Now we can argue about the rate and the point it kicks in – but this seems like an easy way to go about it. Maybe a rate of 85c in the $ over $500,000 would be appropriate.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26553408-953,00.html
572
The way to reduce the excess is to have a high payroll tax in the high incomes so that they become more unaffordable for the companies. 15% of a million dollars (the amount left over after tax paying on income over 1 million for someone on 2 million per annum with a tax rate of 85% for over a million) extra is still a significant amount of money.
Peter Young @ # 572
”Sharon Burrows has a great idea to fix obscene executive salaries. She suggests a higher tax rate for salaries over $1million.”
Not a bad start but additionally there should be a limit on the deductibility to the Coy for such amounts over the threshold, whatever that may be.
Ratsars – #574
Yeah thats a good idea too. Both working together would be good.
Sorry tags went all wrong
Don , after this post I shall take your advise and disregard in future this persons posts as PY twists peoples words & takes them out of context for his benefit , as can be seen below , although I’m sure most posters (rightly) now ar unintersted in PY’s “opinion” or th whole issue
1/ First lie
PY #425
“The DC (Police Inspector) simply does NOT assert in that interview:
*** (ie) a terrible tragedy of thugs attackin “anyone” of whatever racial origin who whapened to walked thru that deserted park that nite (per Rons claim) post 310 “
A lie I never said th Inspector said that at all !
What I actualy said quote:
“9 months earlier when in india after Singh also called Symonds a monkey & it got media airplays , over 10,000 indian fans at Madras kept shoutin monkey at Symonds there govt said nothing
Point of example is India hav doubler standards on racism multiple times in th example
India’s current alegaton of racism is a cheap shot on what is reely a terrible tragedy of thugs attackin “anyone” of whatever racial origin who whapened to walked thru that deserted park that nite”
It is patentley untrue to claim I said th Police Inspector said these words , when clearly I Ron am saying those words of MY opinion , and not th Police Inspectors !
You do this manipulaton to camoflage you’ve been made to look silly on th issue
2/ Second lie
Peter Young
#466 .”the claim made by ONE POSTER last night that the Chief Inspector (read as Deputy Commissioner) said the murder was NOT racially motivated “
I NEVER used those above words at all
These ar YOUR words “MANIPULATING” what I said , which you then tried to falsely claim were my words , for your own purposes
In my #310 & 353
I said th Inspector was saying there was no evidense to INDICATE this was a racist murder
I also said th Inpector INDICATED it was a random act of violense
Your manipulaton of slitely twisting what someone says is obvous above And Police do not make definite statements , Police ‘indicate’ which is what th Inspector did in th interview and what i said he did , and any non moron can listen to th words and understand what he is indicating , and further undeerstand how careful he had to be given th explosive Internatonal ramifactons
Zoomster said it best about anothr poster but it applies to you about this whole case
“Which suggests that you have some sort of problem even contemplating that the attacks might not be racist and that the government is working to allay the fears of the community.”
It seems the big US corporates have been spending up big on lobbyists in their attempts to retain their ” rights to pollute “.
The Center for Public Integrity. a non-profit journalism group, estimates that “more than 770 companies and interest groups hired an estimated 2,340 lobbyists to influence federal policy on climate change in the past year.” The Center calculates that the climate change-driven boom has resulted in “an increase of more than 300 percent in the number of lobbyists on climate change in just five years, and means that Washington can now boast more than four climate lobbyists for every member of Congress.”
http://www.prwatch.org/node/8249
I wonder what the stats are for Australia.
Zoomster @ 531
“But, unlike you, I didn’t rush to judgement. From your very first post, you made a lot of assumptions on the issue, all negative towards Australians and their government.”
No, I made criticisms of what I see as tardy, and in some cases misleading responses.
“Only a very little research, the kind a university academic should regard as almost second nature, a quick google and a bit of reflection might have painted a different picture.”
Or not. Im actually identifying a pattern, and working towards a theory of a new breed of economic racism. If you dont like it – criticise it. Im unlikely to take your empty assertion above as sufficient evidence I’m off target.
“But you didn’t bother to go to the effort to see if your assumptions were backed up by any facts at all, which suggests you didn’t want your beliefs tested.”
I did. And it turned out there was no evidence supporting the view that crime data shows no rise in violence against Indian students. Despite of assertions to the contrary my many public figures, and at least one article cited here.
“And you still don’t. You’d still rather think that anyone who is looking at this topic objectively, in the light of the evidence available, is in denial (or a party hack, or whatever).”
No, Im engaging in a debate, politely, and apparently don’t agree with you. I fail to see the problem with that.
“Which suggests that you have some sort of problem even contemplating that the attacks might not be racist and that the government is working to allay the fears of the community.”
No, I can contemplate that. I just dont think its the case.
“I’ve given you at least three references to support my statements. You’ve given none.”
Actually Ive given several references to evolving news reports, none of which you have responded to. Not that you have to. But if you want to, Click show all and search on my name.
Ron – #578
BS.
Stop dribbling.
Zoomster
My apologies
I’d watched an excelent movie with Kevin coster called 13 days in October , covering JFK’s handing of cuban Missile crisis Then came to PB , saw PY’s post and replied
I should hav read back at earlier posts first and seen your excelent one below , it would hav saved me wastin posters time reading mine
Zoomster
Posted Tuesday, January 5, 2010 at 9:22 pm | Permalink
#559
“PY in this case Ron is not wRONg.
….
Don’t blame Ron for your lack of comprehension abilities. If I can work out what he means, so can you.”
zoomster
Posted Tuesday, January 5, 2010 at 9:47 pm | Permalink
#565
“PY If you keep changing what you say you’re talking about, you will never know”
do recomend th fine movie which gives roles to th whole JFK Cabinet , CIA , FBI , and Joint Cheifs of Staff , each with sub titles as there name and there positon so one can know who is saying which
and just saw this:
redwombat
Posted Tuesday, January 5, 2010 at 8:29 pm | Permalink
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/internet-spells-death-of-english-20100104-lq7s.html
Ron has already done it
With abit of luck j/v wont see it and rib me
suppose may hav to start writing a dictonary , like maybe “th PB way to fine english” , with prefase by william
TIGER
Help is at hand. Join Sex Addicts Anonymous.
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/constant-craving-the-secret-lives-of-sex-addicts-20100105-lsf2.html
lefty
Yes, what YOU see; not backed up by any evidence.
Just my point.
Based on what evidence? Not anything that’s available in crime statistics, but simply on the basis of news reports. I’ve provided plenty of evidence which suggests you’re off target, you’re dismissing it because you’d already made up your mind.
I will say here that I took your first assertions on face value but wanted to check out what the actual figures were. There weren’t any which supported your claim, which led to my critique of your argument.
And no evidence to show that there isn’t. Yet you continue to criticise the police and government, without considering that they can’t act without evidence either.
In other words, despite lack of evidence in either direction, you are insisting they act on perception only, which would be extremely bad public policy.
Again, it’s what you think which is apparently important. This statement (which in context, is saying that you think the attacks are racist, and the government isn’t doing enough to deal with them) reinforces that you have taken a position based on opinion and not fact.
Gosh, and my references were to statistics – that is, evidence. The news reports contain no evidence to support any of your views. They provide no evidence the assaults are race related and DO provide evidence that the government and police have looked at the problem.
It’s increasingly apparent that I’m arguing on the basis of the available facts and you’re interpreting everything in the light of your own opinion. I just find it interesting that you claim to be an academic but cannot understand the basic problem with your approach.
Zoomster@564:
Thanks, Zoomster, you analysed the lack of knowledge and understanding in that post much better than I could.
Great post.
Amigo Ronnie was the pioneer. Amigos always pioneering.
And it is TQ not THX, yak, 3 chars? too long.
Regarding climate change and what happens in Europe, it really is a bit of a “so what” point. Overall there is no doubt the earth is getting hotter, with all the consequences that brings like melting ice caps. This change is not even with ocean and air currents changing location, so that some places get much hotter and a small number may even get slightly cooler. The whole of Europe is only 3% of the earth’s surface area, so it is entirely possible that parts of Europe like Britain will get cooler without altering the overall conclusion. This is a “second order” effect that doesn’t alter the overall conclusion at all. It may be of interest to a lot of journos based in Britain, but it does not disprove CC science.
Variability like this was correctly pointed out in the earliest CC modelling I read of back in the late 80s. We are still headed for a very serious problem very soon, as last year being the second hottest on record for Australia, despite the cooling benefit of a La Nina system in place, proves.
Regarding infrastructure funding, the obvious solution is to go back to the approach that was the norm prior to the 1990s – make the developers pay for local infrastructure connections required, and states pay for “trunk” infrastructure, at the time of approval of the development. The principles on “reasonable and relevant conditions” were spelt out neatly in a High Court case, King Ranch v Cardwell Shire Council (1972 from memory).
Corrupt State Labor governments in Qld, NSW,Vic and WA walked away from those principles under the guise of “planning” throughout the 90s. It was just a cave in to UDIA, other lobbyists and the developers that fund political campaigns in these states. Now there is a huge backlog of needs, land prices have gone up with demand anyway, and the developers have walked away with billions and can’t be touched.
We could balance the books in the 80s when residential land prices were half of what they are now in real terms. Why can’t we do it now with land costing far more? It is because developers get a huge windfall profit now when they rezone unserviced land to sell at residential prices, yet don’t have to pay for all the services which we call “infrastructure”. It is one of the reasons I despise NSW State Labor, but they are not the only guilty government on this one.
The problem with that is that it just makes the difference between the company tax rate and personal tax rate more which increases the incentive to dodge tax and run a company which provides CEO services. These people have great accountants and they seldom pay much tax.
The payroll tax looks better but I think the companies will just wear the tax and it might not change the actual remuneration the CEO actually gets.
This is getting boring and circular Zoomster, but I’d simply note your claim “Gosh, and my references were to statistics – that is, evidence.” is false.
That spolc report contained no stats or evidence of crime figures, and moreover, openly stated that it didnt. Im starting to think you didnt read it.
And note this “The Indian Western Reference Group was set up by Victoria Police, …At the time, police recognised that members of the Indian community were over-represented as victims in crimes in the western suburbs.”
http://www.theage.com.au/national/calls-from-fearful-indian-students-go-unheard-20100105-lscv.html
This is why Mr X will be re-elected forever and probably get in a friend or two. You could argue that his stance is “populist” but that means that I’m sure the Labor folk here won’t complain about that as they often say it’s good that Rudd is doing popular things and that it shouldn’t be a criticism.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26556929-5006301,00.html
lefty e
Proving that, contrary to YOUR claim, the police have been dealing with the problem.
Their conclusion was that the crimes were not due to race, but due to the occupations and habits of Indian students (more likely to be on the streets late at night, working in high risk industries).
So: i. the police were dealing with the issue well before it was raised by the Indian government, contrary to your claims; ii. as the paper referred to stated, the evidence so far is that the assaults are not due to racism but due to behaviours (which is why no Indian women were attacked).
I live in a very safe community, with almost a zero crime rate. Yet I would not, and no one I know would, take a short cut across a park late at night by myself.
The stolc paper was not the only references I linked to. I’m starting to think you didn’t read them.
The other two were statistics based. No, they don’t demonstrate whether or not these crimes were racially based, so why do you insist they were?
lefty e
There is obviously a problem in western Melbourne based on those figures but it might be that the increase in violence to Indian students is a reflection of the general increase rather than it being racism. Another theory is that Indians are viewed as soft targets so it’s not actually “hate” that is driving the attacks.
Diog
Well, that’s bollocks for starters.
The Feds only have as much power over water as the states are prepared to give them, which is why Howard had to bribe SA, NSW & QLD. The only way they can get more power is by referendum, and I can’t see the citizens of NSW, Vic and QLD giving up their water rights for SA.
I don’t know what NSW is doing with regards water, other than what I read here, but in Victoria we’ve had massive loss of fruit trees and grapevines over the last decade, due to lack of water. I know personally farmers who are now off the land – one guy sold his house and his water rights, but had to give the remainder of his land away because it was worthless.
People would be pulling out grapevines regardless of the climatic conditions, as the market has been over supplied for some years now and grape prices are at well below production costs.
Diog
from
http://www.invest.vic.gov.au/050609VictoriaremainssafeststateinAustralia
…and I realise that doesn’t contradict what you’re saying!
592 – Dio, talk is cheap. What is X going to do about it? I’m not impressed with him. After the next DD election he’ll be irrelevant in which case he can take who he likes to the Senate.
z
That’s not bollocks at all. Penny Wong is doing the same “don’t rock the boat” thing she did with the ETS. She can’t make a tough decision and gets walked all over by lobbyists.
And your argument “we can’t make it rain” is looking pretty lame. It’s been flooding and it’s not helping us at all.
I was down in the Lower Lakes last week. It’s just pitiful there.
GB
He can highlight the issue and make things difficult for anyone who doesn’t deal with it. That’s good politics.
Water is the number 1 issue in SA. Labor keeps sending out stuff saying what they are doing and telling us about their High Court challenge against Victoria. Rann will put more pressure on the Feds to do something the more airplay it gets.
Diog
water is (under the Federal constitution) a state right. The only way Howard got to do anything was by offering them all a heap of money.
And after ten years of below average rainfall, a few floods here and there are not going to automatically fix anything. We need a couple of years of above average rainfall.
As I said, things are dying up here, too. I’ve lost probably a third of our established trees (native, not garden, and some well over the century).
We also had a flood!! Came back after the New Years weekend to find our kayak washed away, our fire pump under water (oh the irony) and clear signs that the water had come up two metres above the banks.
As a result, we can’t pump from the river, which is still very silty.
Dio, make it rain there then.
Diogenes @ # 590
Sharon Burrows has a great idea to fix obscene executive salaries. She suggests a higher tax rate for salaries over $1million.
The problem with that is that it just makes the difference between the company tax rate and personal tax rate more which increases the incentive to dodge tax and run a company which provides CEO services. These people have great accountants and they seldom pay much tax.
What this stops is the transfer of funds from the company to the individual that I believe was the purpose of putting some sort of break on such practices mainly in respect of executives.
If funds in the individual’s hands are taxed at a higher rate there is an incentive to leave the funds in the company.
The payroll tax looks better but I think the companies will just wear the tax and it might not change the actual remuneration the CEO actually gets.
Payroll tax is regressive tax like the GST (as apposed to a progressive tax system like our individual income tax) and because it is a tax on labour it will fade from our tax system over the coming years and I don’t think that there will be any enthusiasm for its retention.
The better option is to limit the deductibility for those amounts paid to executives over a threshold.
Of cause if you continue this concept you could allow a deduction of say 105% of labour costs for those companies that comply with the policy and the labour cost of those that don’t could be limited to say 95%.
The variation on this is endless but I think you could understand that those that comply get an advantage while that that don’t comply get an additional cost.
There is no guarantee that this or any solution will change behaviour but for those that don’t there will be a cost to pay both in the company hands and the hands of the individuals.
Diogenes @ 592,
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/comments/0,22638,26556929-5006301,00.html
That is one hell of a “beat-up” that you quoted there! It’s almost as though SA has “sole rights” to “any” water that falls in the MDB catchment area.
I like the way that the article was used as a “lead” into their poll question which could only be expected to produce “one” result!
The piece was also worded as to encourage the usual suspects in the comments section to have a right old rant. At least one poster seems to have a bit of knowledge and common sense!
If your having any trouble making it rain Dio, I might be able to help. I know this guy called Malcolm and he knows these Russians…….
GB
We need Kevin Rudd to visit and bring some rain.
z
Clearly a single flood doesn’t solve the problem but it should help a bit. We’re never going to get a few years of above average rainfall and we need to adjust to the present levels.
We’re asking the River to do too much. It is over-irrigated and being sucked dry.
Mrs D tells me that NSW is the main culprit. Vic and SA are on the tail end. Qld has lots of other water sources so they have better options.
scorpio
Am I supposed to be pleased that 300 gigalitres will evaporate from the Menindee Lakes or keep watering Broken Hill lawns in the middle of the desert?
Mrs D obviously graduated from the Zoomster Academy on Water Management with flying colours.
Resident “lefty” 3AW commentator Nick McCallum (who was and is part of a Sunday morning program that used to be promoted as ‘Left versus Right’) has just said he has never voted Labor in his life. I must admit his relentless attacks on the state and federal Labor governments should have given me some clue as to his real tendencies.
Diogenes @ # 590
The problem with that is that it just makes the difference between the company tax rate and personal tax rate more which increases the incentive to dodge tax and run a company which provides CEO services. These people have great accountants and they seldom pay much tax.
Something I should have mentioned in respect of your comment about tax avoidance and the difference between the Company rate and the top individual rate is that you must have a different approach between public and private company to eliminate this “problem”.
If you have a company running your business in fact if not in law you pay the tax assuming that you and your family hold all the shares. Therefore there is an incentive to move funds to the area of lowest taxation. In the case of most private companies this is the Company.
However with a Public company (this is bad terminology but I think you get the meaning) the owners of the company are not in anyway in the dame position as owners of a private company.
Just keep in mind that the shareholders are not the owners of a Public Company. A share is a bundle of rights and in no way infers ownership. Those rights may or may not include the right to elect company Officials or a right to dividends or a right to any excess on liquidation.
The problem of high executive payments is almost exclusively the domain of Public Companies like the payments to the just retired Chairman of Qantas.
Also remember that today the problem relates to the “Golden Handshake” component of these payments on termination. Just like you and I these executives are entitled to their unused leave, yearly bonuses and superannuation payments and such arrangement as employee share schemes. Which may have been built up over many years. Of cause this is distorted in the press with just a total figure that really should be treated with a lot of scepticism.
Gary Bruce – #609
{Nick McCallum……….has just said he has never voted Labor in his life. ]
Why would anyone vote Labor if they have a true left alternative?
He has less time for the Greens.
Re tax etc,
It always amazes me that their accountants are always geniuses that can’t be challenged. Oh the poor tax office, after having been run be the vampires for years, they couldn’t possible tax the rich. Don’t be so absurd, if the government wanted to tax the rich they could. They just don’t want to . There is no political will. These rich are they opinion setters, the owners of the newspapers or the friends of the owners of the newspapers, they meet for drinkies at the Clubs, they play golf together. How far from the light on the hill are the ALP, or is it that they are ‘pragmatic’ they give jobs to the other boys, give tax breaks to the rich and support corporate greed in the hope that they will crawl into the same heady company.
Diogenes,
Crikey, this water is coming from a couple of minor tributaries which flow into the Darling and then down to Menindee Lakes. I wouldn’t think it would have travelled more than about a hundred kilometres from its source yet and it will be interesting to see just how much reaches the Darling and flows through to the lakes.
The way that article is carrying on and others that I have read, is that this is some “major” flood event and that all the Darling Tributaries were full and being furiously pumped prior to this minor flood event.
Most of them have been dry or just a few shallow stagnant water holes and the only water left in the Darling has been in the few weir storages for town supply for the likes of Bourke etc so it will be interesting to see just how much “does” make it down to the Lakes.
Going by what that poster, Clair, wrote it seems that SA gets quite a lot of water from the lakes. If insufficient water reaches the lakes to allow for natural flow release, I can’t see how it can be magically produced out of thin air to allow for such a release.
I think self interest may be taking preference over common sense and the common good here! There’s plenty of wet season to go yet and a bit of patience might be in order as western NSW and southern Qld have been in drought conditions for some considerable time now.
I’m pretty sure that most of the feeder streams from QLD to the Darling are still almost dry yet we are being accused of overuse of water that doesn’t exist and which farmers are paying for even though they have none to access!
Deakin University criminologist Darren Palmer says the way authorities have handled the reports of assaults on Indian students may have invited the extra scrutiny of Melbourne.
“In relation to the latest case, there was a quick attempt to come out and defend Melbourne, Victoria and Australia’s reputation, and in a way that ups the ante,” he said.
“That puts it on the international stage automatically.”
……..
“But you’re on a dangerous path down there where you actually can start to blame the victims for the victimisation. So you’ve got to tread very cautiously and not unnecessarily provoke fear.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/06/2786322.htm?section=business
For the lefties out there
Red george Monbiot has got a bit of bile off his chest.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/04/standard-of-living-spending-consumerism
Barking
I’ve met plenty of rich people and the amount of tax they pay is inversely proportional to how much they earn.
They have more incentive to avoid tax because they would have to pay more so they will pay lots to an accountant to shift their money around.
I really don’t think it’s that the Govt, esp a Labor one, is turning a blind eye.
Barking @ 613,
Well named all right. What a load of tripe!
Which Party had been in government for the past “two” years? Which party was in government for the 11.5 years prior to that?
Who gave enormous tax concessions and breaks for the upper middle and upper income earners?
Who commissioned an enquiry by the Treasury Department to investigate reform of Australia’s taxation system?
Ah, to hell with it! You have written nothing but a heap of defamatory garbage with nothing to substantiate it whatsoever and I should not even bothered to call it for what it is!
You’re barking all right!
I have just read Levitt and Dubners chapter on a simple fix for Global warming. Now please don’t just dismiss this a too simple to work. They theorise as follows : (1) It is well established with copious amounts of data that after major volcanic errutions this century the earth’s temperature cooled depending on how big the event was. Think Pinatubo and El Chichon and there is also evidence that the same happened and to a larger extent for the major erruptions preceeding this century, Krakatoa and the other biggie Tambora, however the temperature fluctuataion recordings following these earlier events are more qualitative than quantitative. It is thought that the S02 emmitted into the stratosphere reacts with water vapour to form a dense optically bright haze layer that reduces the atmospheric transmission of some of the sun’s incoming radiation. (2) So the solution is to pump S02 into the stratosphere at a controlled rate. We currently pump copious quantities of this stuff into the atmosphere in the form of power plant and automobile pollution C02, SOX and NOX. They calculate that only a fraction (~0.1% if I remember correctly) of what we already pump into the atmosphere as bog standard polution needs to be diverted higher up into the stratosphere to cause the desired effect. (3) This could be simply done by having sulphur burning plants and a delivery hoses with staged atmospheric pumping located at strategic points around the globe, This would allow us to monitor and adjust the flowrate of S02 injected into the stratosphere to achieve the desired cooling effect to offset global warming. This simple and (what appears to an engineer as myself) and elegant solution would have the following drawbacks : (a) This would take away the emphasis/incentive to reduce C02 emmissions which are causing the problem (b) The country that controlled this would be able to modify the earths temperature to suit. Some countries may prefer cooler temps to others – think of the possible global conflicts that may result as a result of this implementation…Countering these drawbacks, the cost to implement this solution would be in the millions rather than the current ameliorating measures which can be counted in trillions, and it could be switched off and the S02 allowed to disperse and breakdown as it does after a vocanic event if it doesn’t work…
Dubbs
That chapter has been slaughtered as complete rubbish.
Why Everything in Superfreakonomics About Global Warming Is Wrong
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/10/why_everything_in_superfreakon.php
Dubbs@619:
The stratosphere starts about 10 km up. It is reasonably stable, with a tropopause between it and the troposphere, the weather part where we live.
What do you intend to use to get it up there, a garden hose?
Barking
Of all the decisions made to give jobs for the other boys, the one to appoint an Ambassador to the Vatican stands out to me as the most cynical exercise for party political gain carried out by the present ‘Labor’ government.
The announcement was timed to take full advantage of the hysteria sweeping the country over the visit of the Pope. It was at that time, unlikely to be examined on its merits, let alone criticised. By appointing one of them to the job, it was less likely to attract criticism from them also. However, when the present ambassador retires it will create a nice little spot to park some Labor acolyte in. Imagine any career diplomat ever putting their hand up for the job.
What the hell do we need an ambassador to this little “country”. It cannot be justified on trade grounds. It cannot be justified on the grounds of some strategic alliance. It is not recognised by the United Nations.
Indeed the arguments stand stacked against it:-
1. It is not a secular state.
2. It is not a democracy.
3. It stands guilty of atrocities against mankind e.g. by preaching against the use of condoms it is directly responsible for the spread of the HIV virus, particularly in poorer countries like Africa
4. It’s overseas representatives, are guilty of the most horrendous sexual crimes against young boys
5. It is hypocritical to the extreme. On the one hand it preaches “copyright” as an evil preventing the sharing of knowledge across the globe. Yet it unilaterally declares “copyright” on the use of the name Pope.
6. It engages in the most extreme form of punishments to dissidents. It sentences all those who dispute the central tenets of its beliefs to eternal damnation. No chance for parole for good behaviour there.
Just another example of toadying up to the establishment. Of course whether the reward is expected in this life, or in a later life one does not know.
Oooh goodie, some of my fav topics for 2010 already…
The least water wasteful place to irrigate crops is as close as possible to the inflows. The reasons for this are:
. least loss from evaporation
. least cost infrastructure
. least loss from soakage.
This means that:
1. despite all the whinging and hand-wringing there should be no irrigation at all from the Murray Darling Basin in South Australia
2. Adelaide should either be sent back to England or, at a pinch, should be shifted to somewhere like Albury/Wodonga
3. South Australia should be delisted as a state and the desert added to any of its neighbours as yet another headache.
Dubbs
Yes, probably the least worst engineering solution which serves to demonstrate that there are probbaly not going to be workable engineering solutions in the next 20 years or so.
PS. You left out the bit about what all the additional SO2 is going to do to the already acidifying oceans.
From fib HQ
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=4443
Ho hum
and for something completely different
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugue/3952884928/sizes/o/
Who said ciggies are bad!
623 Boer
I’m a big advocate of growing crops close to the source, especially permanent crops.
For example: pear and apple trees have been ripped out at places only 100 k or so downstream of us, because they were dying due to lack of water. Yet we haven’t watered our fruit trees at all for nearly 10 years and are getting bumper crops.
The difference? We’re on river flats; even if it doesn’t rain, the water table is high enough that the trees can get their roots down into it and don’t need supplementary water to survive.
As an it’s too late for mitigation, let’s focus on adaptation type person, I’d like to see more resources going in to shifting existing agriculture into more sustainable locations.
Of course, what happens to the land downstream is a vexing question.
Dio (620), read the link and all the stuff debunked/argued relates to the theory and causes of AGW – linkages between C02 and AGW. They author of your linked article does not effectively argue against the engineering behind using geoengineering (pumping S02 into the stratosphere) as an alternative method – only state that it should be used as a last resort. “…Finally, I repeat: the very best would be if emissions of the greenhouse gases could be reduced so much that the stratospheric sulfur release experiment would not need to take place…” And Don (621) can’t remember the nominal diameter required, but it didn’t strike me as too big, The process would be invlove simply burning the sulphur at sites where sulphur is stockpiled as a byproduct of a mining/mineral processing operation, then stage pumping (each pumping stage supported by balloons – I guess not your standard party helium balloons) and discharge into the Stratosphere. I’m sure you giggled when I mentioned pipe and balloons but if engineers can send a shuttle to the moon and construct a 830 m high tower designed to withstand windshear and earthquakes, I am sure designing a 8 km long hose of appropriate diameter and correct material, size pumps and elevated pumping stages to be held aloft and the relevant gas scrubbing and process control, would not be pushing the limits of engineering expertise…I know some of the stuff is bollocks but a simple cost effective solution using geoengineering could be implemented to give us all “more time” to drag the halfwits like the Australian Conservatives and Senator Fielding to the table and their counterparts overseas to begin acting on reducing C02 emmissions before the horrendous effects of AGW are realised…
Boerwar (624) they are talking about dispersing into the Stratosphere (8 km up) where the S02 will be broken down naturally (UV radiation I guess) just as it is after a volcanic erruption – hence the need to keep pumping it to maintain a constant level of S02 to offset the dispersion losses. It is the stuff (S0X and NOX) that is discharged into the atmosphere which mixes with water vapour which returns as acid rain.
Dubbs
Doesn’t really matter. SO2 will not stop oceans acidifying.
Just what we need, more acid rain.
That’s sold me.
Finns
I just saw that video of Tigerrrrrrrrrr you posted yesterday
He’s gone feral and turned into a gangstar!
Grrrrr bang- bang
Now it’s interesting to examine in more detail the practical consequences of the cynical announcement for party political gain of the appointment of an Ambassador to the Vatican.
1. Accommodation. This is situated some 5 kms from the Embassy offices. It is not even in the “country”. It costs some $14,000 per month plus $1,400 per month in body corporate fees, a total of about $15,400 per month.
2. Embassy office. The embassy office is likewise in another country, not in the “country” of the mission. It is located at Via Paola, 24 Apt 10 Rome. The embassy office is a converted residential apartment. The fit out cost about $3million. The rental is similar to the residence, about $15,400 per month. Working in the embassy office will be the Ambassador plus one staffer.
The total cost of the exercise will be $11.5million over 4 years, or about $3million per year.
The hypothesis used in geoengineering is that the S02 injected into the STRATOSPHERE does not return to earth as it is naturally dissipated…unlike the S0X and NOX which we at present pollute into the lower ATMOSPHERE which DOES return to the earth as acid rain
NO Fed Govt has power over th water , so th Mr X media release saying th Feds should fix it is self publisity
Why SA folks fall for this nonsense is a surprise
Instead of geting told truth ,
there is not enuf water at all for personal & farming needs in oz from th MRB and
that Feds hav no Constit Power to act and
that th water falls in NSW & Q’ld /rivers run thru those NSW & Q’d States and they NSW & Q’ld hav power to do WHAT THEY LIKE with such water , its th LAW of th country
until that ocurs , instead of Mr X chasing popalar votes for himself & so conning SA folks , there will be no ratonal coments from SA
Peoples ned to understand as there is not enuf water in MRB anyway for all (storeage in MRB about 25%) & may REDUCE further with CC !!! and so it is LONG term to fix th MRB via “caps” on use & alocatons for farming
This can only be done via colective States coooperaton with NSW & Q’ld especialy giving upthere ‘state rights’ and what they see as there water falling /runing thru there States why SA folks can not see this obvous
Rudd has seen soluton & set up a MRB authority Fed Labor bribed th States to join th authority into a cap and control system and $4 billion allocaton buy out plan of big users under th MRB authority that will take yrs to produce reel results , for examples MRB 2008 consumpton was set at 4% , 2009 was set at 6%
Of couse problam can be solved short term for SA water needs if people sillier enuf to want soluton today !! , just shut down th SA Riverland irrigaton industry
(surely youse ar not sugesting NSW & Q’ld who HAV th water access hav to shut down THERE NSW Irrigaton industrys so that SA keep there Irrigaton industrys ?
one liner blog solutons ar like MR X’s proposals , poofles , for public votes
Ron
What are “poofles”?
PY
What does the Ambassador to the Vatican actually do?
The SA Labor Water minister is huffing and puffing about the flood water but she’s ruled out a High Court action about it. She’s even going to write the Ruddster a nasty letter.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26556929-5006301,00.html
Why aren’t there a few Labor staffers at least making an effort to even this online poll up?
“Ron What are “poofles”?
redwombat
Posted Tuesday, January 5, 2010 at 8:29 pm | Permalink
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/internet-spells-death-of-english-20100104-lq7s.html
Ron has already done it
“suppose may hav to start writing a dictonary , like maybe “th PB way to fine english” , with prefase by william”
its in th dictonary
Diog
I know they’re not all on holiday, I’ve just been talking to one of them (receiving orders, of course, about what to post here).
Ooohh that nasty Ms Maywald, a LETTER!! Between her and Bob B, it’s a positive deluge.
From today’s OO:
‘Mr Abbott, asked by The Australian whether the BOM report should be seen as evidence of climate change, said that was an issue for scientists. “We accept the need to take action on climate change,” he said. “But the government should not politicise events such as floods or cyclones to try to justify a new tax.”‘
Journos keep letting Abbott get away with this line and similar. Abbott’s ‘need’ here is about his ‘need’ for votes, not a heart-felt ‘need’ to avoid disaster.
Whether climate change is anthropogenic and whether the planet is warming are not an ‘issue for scientists.’ It is an issue for him as a possible Prime Minister. He has made it clear in the past that he thinks climate change is ‘crap’ and that the planet has ‘stopped warming’.
The conceptual disjunct here is obvious. Why do any ‘climate action’ at all if there is no point to it? Further, why should the electorate trust any of his plans for ‘climate action’ even if they look good on paper, if they can’t trust him to implement them?
Clearly, he is going along for the ride because that is what the electorate wants. Equally clearly, the closer the elections come, the more difficult it is going to become for Abbott to hide on this issue.
Dubbs @663
It doesn’t matter where the SO2 goes, or stays.
It will not stop the oceans from acidifying.
Any engineering ‘solution’ that wipes out the oceans is not even on the agenda for moi.
Boerwar, I am not up to speed on my ocean chemistry, but I would suspect that the excess C02 (caused by industry) would partitially dissolve in the ocean water forming the very weak Carbonic Acid HC03 which dissociates readily to the Hydronium Ion H30+ which would marginally depress the Ocean pH (increase the acidity)…You are right geoengineering wouldn’t supress this happening as if my guess is correct, but it wouldn’t contribute to it either
Boerwar, be reasonable! We can’t have just one response that’ll fix everything.
From what I’ve seen, the idea is that ocean acidification will be fixed by pumping urea into the sea.
Dubbs
If an engineering ‘fix’ does not fix one of the major negative outcomes of high atmospheric CO2 concentrations, it is not a fix.
Time for you to read up on ocean acidification, I suspect.
Rewi
Hi. Thank you for that info about urea. Just what I needed. I can now relax.
Pleased, as always, to be of assistance.
The breaking news ticker at ABC Online says a Sea Shepherd ship has been cut in half in a collision with a Japanese whaler.
If it’s the Steve Irwin, it would appear to not have been stealthy enough.
Either that, or the spy planes turned out to be an excellent investment.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/06/2786632.htm
Rewi
with a bit of luck it’ll be the boat that big mouth Watson is on. he’s so up himself, making threats to ram the Japenese boats etc, I have no sympathy for him or any of his crew.
He has been looking for confrontation to get himself more publicity to look like a big man for years.
Maybe he’ll be happy now.
Wonder if the whaler rescued them?
Wouldn’t blame them if the let them drown.
Boerwar, Ok I googled it and although my Inorganic Chemistry was slightly off, I got pretty close to the major gist of it. You are correct in that geo-engineering could not fix the ocean acidification problem, but it may amerriolate some of the other problems such as rising sea levels, cows going off their milking and the curtains fading. I never said that the geoengineering was the ultimate solution, in fact I quoted (from D & L) that one of the major drawbacks is that it may mitigate efforts to reduce C02 levels (reduces the incentive to tackle the problem), but it does provide an interesting engineering (partial) solution to one of the biggest problems to face humanity.
Dubbs@627:
You really don’t have a clue, do you?
The only thing loopier than that would be skyhooks.
Sad really.
The Liberal lovers won’t like this
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/06/2786653.htm?section=justin
Boy going by the comments the Liberal really have taken over their ABC!
Nah, it’s just one of their smaller ones!
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/protest-ship-sunk-by-whalers/story-e6frf7jx-1225816667546
Scorpio
Bugger!
Gee, the cricket’s getting a bit exciting at the moment.
Ponting might be in with a chance to win it still!
z
Perhaps Ms Maywald will write the Ruddster a letter saying how very cross she is with him and end up swimming with the fishies.
Warning: language is a bit unparliamentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b49Iwfp8U-U
I hope South Australians aren’t hoping for some water down their way from Cubby Station!
http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/P5%20bund%20wall.html
It was somewhat surprising that only 4% of the water which flows into the MD system comes from Qld. Cubby Station only takes .028% when it can and even if all of its allocation was released, less than 20% of that would eventually make it all the way down.
Dubbs@642:
It just gets worser and worser. What other hare brained scheme will you come up with next?
First you are going to pump SO2 up ten kilometres in the air using a pipe held up with party balloons, then have that SO2 add to acid rain problems, and now you think that excess CO2 dissolved in seawater won’t have any bad implications.
Just wave the magic wand of geoengineering and all will be well.
The ocean is dissolving CO2 as we speak, and getting more acidic. Haven’t you been following the stories about thinning shells of sea organisms that secrete limestone shells?
Don, what’s your view on the loopiness of putting mirrors into orbit?
Another article full of bulldust. The Menindee Lakes are currently at 8% capacity. Full it is 1200 GL so if all that 300 GL reaches there it will still be less than 1/3 capacity.
As well most of the water is going down the Castlereigh which was bone dry before the rain and doesn’t have “any” storages or major extractors along its length. The first ones are just north of Bourke and two of them have been bought out by the Federal Government anyway.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/floodwaters-wont-make-it-to-sa-20100105-lqnv.html
All in all, these pieces are nothing but political beat-ups hoping to cause some damage to Labor Governments in NSW, SA and Federally!
One wicket to go!
Aussie win the cricket. It was never in doubt!
Gee that was quick. Australia wins by 37 runs!
Ponting breathes again!
Test cricket is just the best!!!
Rewi@658:
Very loopy.
Doesn’t have to be a mirror, all it has to be is a screen.
But the sun is so far away that the screen will cast a shadow not much larger than it is.
So to make a significant difference to the insolation on the earth, it would have to be a significant fraction of the area of your average continent.
Think about it. How heavy would it be, made out of something that could be kept rigid?
How do you get it up there, then how do you deploy it?
And it has to be kept in orbit between the sun and the earth.
Ye gods and little fishes!
Sensational Win. So good. PB? what PB? Nathan Hauritz has arrived.
scorpio
There were the same stories when Howie was PM. We were assured that with Federal Labor and State Labor being in power that things would be worked out in a less adversarial manner and that we’d get somewhere.
We was lied to!
Kev and Therese doing their bit for the Jane McGrath Foundation!
http://www.watoday.com.au/breaking-news-national/pakistan-sees-pink-over-catch-drop-20100105-ls31.html?page=-1
Dubbs
Yeh. SO2 has value as a distractment.
What the coolers should be doing is looking at what all the fish, insects, birds and plants are doing. They are telling us that Earth is warming.
Critters can’t lie.
Thanks Don, I think the idea is lots of little mirrors, but exactly how that’d work isn’t clear to me either.
The Pakistanis wern’t so impressed though. It seems more like an excuse and sour grapes to me!
http://www.watoday.com.au/breaking-news-national/pakistan-sees-pink-over-catch-drop-20100105-ls31.html?page=-1
Rewi @ 658
A leading question…
Diogenes,
Yeah, didn’t Howard promise $10B to fix all the MDB problems early in 2007?
He only had 11.5 years to do something. Maybe he didn’t want to upset all those rural Nat and Lib voters by actually doing more than just handing out easy money to them!
I do feel your pain, though!
Maybe this has something to do with it!
http://www.watoday.com.au/breaking-news-national/rain-falling-in-the-wrong-places-expert-20100106-ltsk.html
Geez Don, are your eyes painted on or something…(1) First I said “you” would probably giggle (as I did) when I read about pumping and balloons – (hence the throwaway line about helium balloons), but then I thought -well it is technically feasible. (2) I indicated that the S02 is injected into the stratosphere 8km up – I am not a meteorologist but I am pretty sure rain is formed in the atmosphere and not the stratosphere – I don’t know if you fly much but I have never seen too much rain at cruising altitude. I usually see it when coming down through the clouds – you know those fluffy things in the ATMOSPHERE – as such there would be no impact on ocean acidification. (3) I just had a punt at the chemistry and agreed that ocean acidification is caused by the excess C02 (from AGW) being sparingly dissolved in the ocean. I definitely didn’t say it was a good thing, all I said is that the geoengineering approach would not affect the rate of ocean acidification and that the geoengineering approach offered a partial solution…Feel free to get up on your soapbox, but please don’t misquote me and at least consider (1) that it is a technically feasible approach – although commissioning is likely to provide some unforeseen headaches (2) As a concept it is certianly worth further investigation (3) The same dismissal type remarks precursed some of our greatest innovations..
scorpio
I don’t know about all the article but the notion of ‘sending down floods where they are not needed’ is puzzling.
We need lots and lots of floods down all our floodplains. They are all needed.
Boerwar, is that an objection? Oh dear, am I doing it again?
Dubbs
SO2 is not really worth a lot of distractment words is it?
Atmospheric SO2 is a FAIL because it will not stop the oceans acidifying. Space mirrors are an even bigger FAIL.
So, let’s focus on the cause of the problem and figure out how to stop even more CO2 from entering the atmosphere.
Rewi
Well, I enjoy friendly distractment fire a bit more than the other sort, but not much. heh heh.
HSO
If you are still around, I appreciated your cooling post about the murder of the Indian man in Melbourne the other day.
DIO
I am sure he works very hard, is a hard working person and puts a lot of effort in.
But if the question is what could the Ambassador possibly achieve for Australians, the answer is SFA.
Don…Further it was not my hairbrained idea, it was proposed by a think tank in the US, I was just offering it up for discussion…If it was my idea I would have preferred to use Cask Wine Bladders filled with Helium and taped together and layflat hose…You sure as hell want to keep those costs down in any pilot type study…
This web site has a wealth of information on water availability and usage in Australia but the difficulty of the task ahead of the Commonwealth in taking charge of distribution is indicated by the amount of information yet to be collated and then it will have to be modelled to take into consideration affects of reduced rainfall due to climate change.
The MDS has only received 1/3 of its average supply in the past 12 months and I think previous years have been similar or worse in recent times.
I started to put information from these pages together to do a post on it and quickly realised the immensity of what I was attempting and gave up. It can only be approached in bite size pieces.
A few hours of scrolling through these pages will give you some idea of what the Fed and State Governments are up against with this issue!
http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/water/availability/index.html
The Queensland one alone would probably take weeks to go through properly and there are further Government sites relating to distribution, leases. trading etc. Thousands of pages of it!
http://www.anra.gov.au/topics/water/availability/qld/index.html#SW_dev
The International Bark Beetle Collective has issued a press release expressing concern that the wave of low temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere will cut down bark beetle numbers and reduce the capacity of bark beetles to invade mature conifer forests in the coming northern summer. It urged bark beetles to snuggle up under the deep snow cover.
A spokesbeetle for the Collective exhorted bark beetles not to panic at temporary setbacks, because in the long run, ‘all the signs for bark beetles are positive’.
In a related initiative, the Collective has urged world governments to investigate the utility of injecting SO2 into the atmosphere as well as of the installation of space mirrors.
Hey ladies and gents!
Do you realise that Rudd accurately predicted the cricket score yesterday, in an interview with ABC radio? He said that the Aussies would win by 37 runs.
I noticed too that the MSM conveniently gave no coverage to Rudd cooking the snags at the breakfast yesterday – no surprise!
scorpio
True. Water management in Australia has been a FAIL.
One more thing to say about the cricket:
PETER SIDDLE IS A FRIGGING LEGEND!
Boerwar, Don and Dubbs,
I do wonder how far gone we’d have to be to actually need to implement these kinds of schemes, and hope it never comes to pass.
I completely agree that a lot more work on mitigation can still be done, but it appears over time the task will get harder. So under what kind of conditions will these ideas become our best, if not only, options?
Dubbs@674:
Have you ever experienced turbulence at cruising altitude? It happens. It happens because of mixing from the troposphere.
This is from Wikipedia, but there is plenty more around.
So gliders use lee waves from mountains to get to elevations well above what you propose for releasing SO2. Thus there is mixing between the two.
There is not an impermeable membrane between the stratosphere and the troposphere!
Now planes cruise in the stratosphere. Do you seriously think that their fumes stay up there in the stratosphere?
They take several years to get to the troposphere, but they get there. So your SO2 will show up and will continue to show up in the troposphere, where the “fluffy things in the atmosphere” are, as you so quaintly put it, and the SO2 will create acid rain.
Have a look at this one for confirmation:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~murty/planetravel2/planetravel2.html
Rewi
Yes, interesting question. I think I noted after Copenhagen that it would need adding grief to fear before governments became fair dinkum on climate change. Whether action would finally focus on emissions reduction or panic reaction-led SO2 injections is, I suppose, moot.
So the Aussies struggle to put away a second rate test team?
What heroes.
Boerwar,
I think what they were getting at is most of the flooding occurred where it was not needed like in NQ where most of it just flowed out into the ocean, The Buderkin dam and others were already full. The Buderkin dam had 14 metres of water flowing over the wall at the rate of 3.5 Sydney Harbour’s a day or some such figure.
The following map gives an idea of the small catchment of the current NSW flood which is so far an isolated event and will mostly flow down the Castlereagh through to Bourke and the following weirs to the Menindee Lakes. It’s not going to be much of a benefit although the area where the rain fell and the run-off area will get a good new years present!
http://www.waterinfo.nsw.gov.au/sr/images/regnsw.jpg
Mike Rann knows when there are votes at stake. He’s written a letter to Rudd with a cc to Wong, Garrett and KK with a few extra copies to every media agency in the country.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26558765-5006301,00.html
Boerwar
Posted Wednesday, January 6, 2010 at 6:01 pm | Permalink
“So the Aussies struggle to put away a second rate test team?
What heroes.”
yes Ritchie , with our team having in it Watne , McGrath , Waughs , Gilly , Taylor they should hav won better
but then th Aussies ar grinning and th Paki’s ar not
Another article about the Sea Shepherd boat sinking.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/06/2786732.htm
I thought it was the ‘stealth boat’ that was named Steve Irwin, but as I now recall that’s their ‘mother ship’, right?
It looks like the boat that was sunk though was the fast one they made a big deal about last year.
This accusation that it was a deliberate act in Australian waters looks like a fairly interesting legal question, though not my bag at all.
Boerwar,
A rather churlish comment. I can agree that this current Australian Cricket side is not the best in the world and neither is their opposition. However, you can only applaud one of the great get off the floor victories by any sporting team ever. The team played with great courage, skill and an unwavering self belief to achieve a very unlikely and famous victory.
Many Australians look to their Test Cricket side as a reflection of our national character. If all Australians could embrace the virtues of the performance by “today’s team”, then we’d have very few problems as a nation.
GG@695:
Wot, like Shane Warne?
Yes, I like how it reflects our multicultural society, good mix of asian, indian, paki and even koori faces in there. Pleasing to see that there is also a couple of muslims on the team.
Love the family values, what goes on tour stays on tour, wink wink nudge nudge, I swear that what not me in the picture with the two girls sweetie. Awwwww honey, I’m telling you the truth I really did catch it from a toilet seat.
And respect for opponents, none of that in your face celebrations and piss off mate you’re goorrrn. just a gentlemanly acknowledgment of the demise of your opponent.
The “choo choo” story, a myth, no real aussie would do that would they.
One thing I forgot to mention in 691 was that the map shows that the “major” storages in NSW are in the water shed catchment close to the source of those rivers and consequently in the highlands of the GDR’s western side!
A not insignificant amount of water released either flows through to wetlands or is is used for stock and domestic purposes and doesn’t make it through to the Darling.
The streams shown as “regulated” for irrigation purposes are generally just a string of small water holes or dry but are important for feeding excess flow into the Darling when available such as the case with this small flood event!
The Darling hasn’t been a great help at times either having totally dried up no fewer than 45 occasions between 1885 and 1960.
If it wasn’t for regular releases from those storages and the weirs along the Darling, then it would have dried up quite a number of times since 1960 also.
http://www.waterinfo.nsw.gov.au/sr/images/regnsw.jpg
Scorpio @ 682
I’ve been involved with water issues for nearly fifteen years now, and am far far more knowledgeable than your average person in the street….but I still haven’t got my head around it!
It’s one of those ‘piece of string’ issues – you don’t realise how involved it all is until you start looking into it, and every question and issue you encounter raises more questions and issues.
PY @ 680 (tongue in cheek alert!)
We haven’t had an ambassador to the Vatican very long and we’ve already got a saint! Goodness knows what the man will do when he’s been there a year or two and really starts hitting his stride – St Kevin? The Holy Order of Julia? Cardinal Swan?
Castle@697:
That was the episode that turned me off the australian cricket side forever. Whenever they play, I hope they get beaten.
I regard sledging as contemptible.
To be fair to Ricky Ponting: he invited the West Indies guys to have some drinks with the Aussies at the end of their test series. I’m no great Ponting fan, but I thought that was a nice gesture!
Peter Siddle did a lot of fundraising for the victims of the Victorian bushfires.
So they’re not all arrogant toffs!
Same here Don, absolutely disgusted me.
I think some people think the Darling is similar to the Murray but it is far different and receives far less water into its catchment even in good times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darling_River
Then you get something like this happening which will eventually price most irrigators out of the market.
http://sj.farmonline.com.au/news/state/agribusiness-and-general/general/tandou-buys-3000ml-of-high-reliability-water/1717632.aspx
castle,
Got some glass in your vaseline or what. You’re cutting up really bad.
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t make what I said untrue. All that stuff about makeup of the side and sledging is irrelevant. For the thousands that play cricket, they know they are only two grades and an unlikely injury to a star from playing for Australia. That’s why Park cricket is so competitive.
The Australian Cricket Captain is the second most important political office in Australia.
Don’t let Tony Abbott hear you say that!
BTW, what’s the “choo choo” story? I must have missed it!
Cricket was never the same for me after Hansie Cronje.
scorps
It’s in here.
http://forums.sidheinteractive.com/archive/index.php/t-16830.html
Diogs,
Old cynics are the best cynics. Never forgive, never forget, never move on. Shit happens! But, passion for the game never dies.
Plenty of water in western Queensland at the moment. Pity it will all end up in Lake Eyre!
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/warning-as-five-queensland-rivers-flood/story-e6frf7jx-1225816642128
Thanks, Dio!
It wasn’t very nice was it!
scorpio
Good posts on water. Thanks.
So Crazy Colin has a new Chief Of Staff
http://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/Pages/Results.aspx?ItemID=133003
uhlmann interviewing abbot on 7.30 report.
He’s no Red Kerry.
Abbott still dodging the issue on AGW. He simply does not believe in it. Uhlmann made a half-hearted attempt to pin him down. Weak interview.
Abbott runs out smokescreen about ‘Green Corps’ and being an ‘environmentalist’ – again. Old lines. Both crap, actually.
Core issue: Abbott does not believe in AGW. Uhlmann fails to pin him down. Pissweak.
Uhlmann has definitely is at his Peter’s Principle.
UhOh. Kev wants a ‘Big Australia.’ Abbott wants a ‘Strong Australia’. What a wank of a policy debate on Population Policy.
*sulks*
Abbott has used ‘practical’. ‘sensible’ and ‘balanced’. Howard used them. Rudd uses them. Now Abbott.
*Crapmeter runs off scale*
Uhlmann had his list of questions and rattled them off, one after the other. PUtative curly ones absolutely predictable. Then no follow up. No probing. No flexibility. No preparation for the standard Abbott litany of crap. De nada. I want my 7 cents back.
Television interview techniques 101.
For all the difference he makes, Uhlmann would make a good second string wicket keeper for Pakistan.
That was Uhlmann?
Damn, I thought they were giving their work experience student a go..
Hey Don and castle,
According to that reference, the “Choo choo” story was the crowd, not the Aussie Cricketers.
Proves again that anger is a complete waste of an emotion.
Uninformed anger just makes you Barnaby Joyce.
What sheer and utter BS.
The Pope should be arrested and charged with fraud.
PY,
I don’t know how you manage to keep on doing it, but your inanity and juvenile stupidity has plumetted to a new record depth.
Barcelona Tonight are apparently going to get into Rudd tomorrow night for his travel and its costs to us blah, blah. Why 140 went to Cop. blah, blah.
TTH has his boat people phobia and PY has his NSW Labor and religion phobias. To each his own I suppose.
GG@722:
Says a lot for the sort of people who go to cricket matches, doesn’t it?
And it’s not the way I heard it.
Gary,
With PY it’s obsession backed by an unfortunately exaggerated intellectual self regard.
With TTH it’s your classic loud moronic loser dressed in a floral shirt leaning against the bar.
gb
My phobia is rats
specifically dessicated rattus
The NSW Land & Environment Court has upheld the granting of an exploration licence to BHP to look for coal at Caroona. Objectors are considering the prospects of a successful appeal.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/06/2786602.htm?section=australia
don,
If you read further, that version is challenged.
You believe what you want. All I say is there are conflicting versions in the source document quoted.
Instead of being out in his tinny,defending Terra Australis from heathens and interlopers.
Shame troothy Shame
Caroona coal decision is here:
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lecjudgments/2010nswlec.nsf/61f584670edbfba2ca2570d40081f438/8367d75675fddb59ca2576a000765006?OpenDocument
Gus,
If you’ll let me complete the picture…
He’s there after poaching a few crabs which he’s raffled off in the pub for his nightly pot binge. Being vigilant for Australia has to have it’s rewards.
From Fielding’s Twitter:
$12 million (cost of Vatican embassy) would provide a lot of homeless shelters.
B O R E D ? ? ?
http://www.onemorelevel.com/game/presidential_paintball
Presidential Paintball !!
No wonder the Coalition are pushing the anti global warming button so hard and most of the media have jumped on board.
If these get the go-ahead, then it will be a difficult process to reduce this country’s emissions, ETS or no ETS! This includes plans for one at Caroona also not just a mine or three!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proposed_coal_fired_power_stations_in_Australia
Frank
It would be interesting to know whether any Australian PM has ever worked longer hours than Rudd. I doubt it.
Fielding just holding his graphs upside down again.
Ahh, our friend Mr Spencer on Barcelona Tonight – and I note he is a Seth Effrikan – nuff said.
The list includes one in WA by Griffin Energy. Isn’t that the company that is on the threat of going into receivership? Wonder how recent the list is.
Actually no he isn’t – it was someone else – I wonder if the Anti rudd story planned for Tomorrow Night is a tie in to this ?
th choo choo remark is despicable
th exchange on th Site story sourse is :
”
1/ Kn1ghts
08-04-2006, 05:02 PM
I go another one but its not very funny
1993 – The Australian slip cordon allegedly greeted New Zealand batsman Chris Cairns with a chant of “Choo Choo” after his sister had just been killed in a train accident.
2/ N_ZWarriors
08-04-2006, 05:09 PM
I go another one but its not very funny
1993 – The Australian slip cordon allegedly greeted New Zealand batsman Chris Cairns with a chant of “Choo Choo” after his sister had just been killed in a train accident.
That one wasn’t the players that were saying that it was sections of the australian crowd i think.
3/ Kn1ghts
08-04-2006, 05:16 PM
That one wasn’t the players that were saying that it was sections of the australian crowd i think.
Yeah but that is pretty low ”
So Knight th originator EASILY consedes it was not th players, but th crowd , which seems abit more feesible
At th time there was some publisity of this and recall th australian captain Alan border denying it
As for sledging , it occurs in national level footy as well & dare say most sports as its competitiv , but is intended “to stay on th ground” , and usualy does , especialy seeing in Cricket Teams do join together afterwards or a beer etc after play
Stuff the Japs
They rammed that boat.
Not happy
sore wa desuka
PY
Wakaramisen
It’s pretty clear from this footage that the Japs just lined up the other boat and tried to go right through it!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/06/2786875.htm
Says Fiskal Fielding, the ersatz bloody Liberal.
?????????????????????????
PY
wakaramisen = I do not understand
Scorpio
I think the japanese whalers have stepped over the line.
They are lucky no-one was killed.
WA voters will come to love their Liberal Government. Stuff the workers, just look after wealthy, donor mates! There’ll be a lot more of this to come yet, just wait and see!
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/wa-govt-offers-4m-to-griffin-coal-20100106-lu4y.html
Boerwar
Posted Wednesday, January 6, 2010 at 9:22 pm | Permalink
“Frank It would be interesting to know whether any Australian PM has ever worked longer hours than Rudd. I doubt it.”
John Curtin , WW11 , probably & loss of soldiers lives killed him says Fred Daly
Hmmm. Here’s a hypothesis. Might be wrong. Not a boatie.
1. In general the Japanese vessel being the port vessel, should have given way to the starboard vessel.
2. In general all vessels should take action to avoid a collision.
3. In this instance the starboard vessel appeared initially to be relatively stationary. This can be seen from its position relative to the port vessel. It can also be seen from the relative lack of white water wake.
4. The starboard vessel at first appears to be holding a course that would take it well ahead of the stationary vessel.
5. The starboard vessel then appears to accelerate. This is probably the reason why the Japanese released the collision video. The evidence for the acceleration from near stationery to a speed that virtually determined a collision can be seen from the increased froth of the starboard vessel.
6. The starboard vessel with superior maneouverability had, until the last moment, the ability to avoid a collison.
7. The larger port vessel presumeably had less scope for sudden reductions in speed or changes in course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea#Summary_of_the_rules
Ron
thanks. I was thinking he might be the main competitor. What a burden for Curtin to wear.
Gusface
Posted Wednesday, January 6, 2010 at 10:00 pm | Permalink
Scorpio
“I think the japanese whalers have stepped over the line.
They are lucky no-one was killed.”
I reckon they step over th line th seconds they leave Japan to unhumanely kill whales
now some say well you can not kill whales otherthan unhumanely
and i says well then thats th reason ya damn well do not kill thems then
I thought it was “I am not sure”
Ron
I dont mind them whaling per se,but hells bells,that video is a bit full on.
I think a investigation should be launched
Gus , i haven’t seen video but seeing its nasty i” go with your opinion
also
“BK
Posted Wednesday, January 6, 2010 at 9:58 pm | Permalink
wakaramisen = I do not understand”
Pauline please explain” could hav said : “wakaramisen”
then everyone would hav thought Pauline please explain was clever , w
ell momentrily anyway
Wow! The Oz have given column space to mad Lord Monckton to have a go at Rudd and sprout his denier nonsense! What a great read.
Come on Rupe, your corporate mates in the mining and energy industries don’t need this much help to fry the planet, do they?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/mr-rudd-your-misguided-warming-policies-are-killing-millions/story-e6frg6zo-1225816411782
So from the 2006 Census – 19% have no religion, another 12% didn’t answer or the answer was “informal” (a total of 31%), 64% are Christian and only 26% are Catholic.
So wtf are we doing spending $12 million to have someone do the diplomatic cocktail circuit in Rome.
It looks like Monckton is working on the lines of “lies, damn lies and statistics”!
The average Joe reading this could easily think that this guy is some highly informed expert in the matter. Bolter will love it and probably get a half dozen columns out of it and let the nutters run rampant in comments!
The RW, radio talking heads will get off on it too. Brownie should have taken the opportunity handed to him on a platter to pass the ETS when he could have!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/mr-rudd-your-misguided-warming-policies-are-killing-millions/story-e6frg6zo-1225816411782
Boy, he really knows how to do a “snow” job and a half!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/mr-rudd-your-misguided-warming-policies-are-killing-millions/story-e6frg6zo-1225816411782
Yeah, Mr Rudd, this is all your fault!
Scopio
Monckton is living proof that a little knowledge is dangerous.
The letter dated 22 December 2009 is still in the PM’s office. Has it been answered yet?
PY
I don’t know.
I doubt it. It’s the holiday period.
I hope Bob wished him a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Just for Shows
I think the genesis of nuclear is clear from that succint article.
I bet the people here would love some of that extra water just a hundred kilometres or so further north rather than just see it flow through to the lower lakes for the pelicans to swim in!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/high-and-dry-in-undeclared-disaster-zone/story-e6frg6nf-1225816415609
Warning about tomorrow night’s TT – Rudd in the firing line, attack on his foreign travel & expenses.
I agree with the earlier comments – Toolman gave Abbott a rather soft interview, as I would have expected.
Kerry, come back soon!
Small problem – Griffin Coal is actually a major Donor to the Labor Party
Saw a lecture from UK CC negotiator , they hav 3% RE and best they could get RE to by 2020 is max 30% , that leaves 70% energy needed from say Nuke , Gas & Coal
So UK can not meet 25% cut by 2020 even with RE at 30% , so tech inovaton is needed on coal or they need nuke or gas
We ar worse off in alternatives as we will not hav Nuke at all , despite Adams crazy notons
But we ar worser off again being a little Country we need private investment into both RE industrys like wind & solar geo thermal farms and Carbon capture & storeage
But chickens & egg problam , there will be no private investment without certianty for business to invest in knowing th long term comercial playing field rules
Hense need for a ETS for certainty AND a world Agreement (read USA first then developng countrys China India Brazil etc to follow gradualy This WAS th reason AGL cancelled just investent in building th bigest Wind Farm in th southern Hemisphere
those that say they want co2 cuts (like bob brown) need to face th abov econamic reality so can contribute to a reel soluton , one liner words of “25% cut” & “oz switch to RE” won’t do a thing to solve just convinse th already convinsed there’s a problam TO solve , but not actualy solve th problam , and in case of RE energy spouse it is not enuf
Fed Govt is investin a few hundred million into CPS , its th logical way to go i feel WITH RE iniovation/investment , as if solvable th 2 souses together would dliver th 25% cut
curent CCS is about 30% premium on coal , more practicle research is needed , scaling , design and eficensy methods to get costs more competitive
CC itself world wide can be solved by populaton stability at curent levels , inovation/tech , and apart from Nuke power , investment in both CCS & RE more cost & eficent efectiv aplication in producton and geting thru th grid to th souse
but first to solve CC , econamic model is needed with private buss clear future investment certianty , so an ETS an World agreemnt ar first needed before reel CC mitigaton can ocur on th planet Those that sprout words thinkin majic will reduce CC w/out econamics & buss long term certainty ar in fairylands
Th Greens reely need to get on board this bus in Senate & pass ETS and dont cjhange th 5% maybe other amendments for bussiness certainty investment in oz into CCS & RE because THEN th actual target becomes more academic but not quite , then argue to increase it later post 2015 if needed , because Libs under Abbott ar not & instead will deliver a claytons mirrors CC polisy
Scorp , th IPPPC ‘s modeling to stable at 2 degrees runs into tones of pages as you’d expect for such a complex exercise
Monkton using grade 5 maths tinks he can calculate it in 6 lines , rather amaturish
Be more like “was” now, I expect!
Ron, I think most of the audience it is directed towards will think it is Einstein level and will believe every word of it!
Unfortunately!
If:
1. A standard worker gets $40,000 per year.
2. A standard working life is 50 years.
Thus a standard worker gets $2million in a lifetime.
6 working lifes = $12million.
These 6 workers will produce substantially more than $12million in their 50 years of working.
In just 4 years we are spending $12million on a Vatican embassy. It will produce nothing.
8. The larger port vessel presumably could have turned off it’s watercannon which was completely obliterating the view of the captain of the smaller vessel.
9 The larger port vessel presumably could have avoided watercannoning the crew on deck of the stricken vessel after the collision occured.
BAD news for athiests
Updated figures on religion ar an ACNielson Poll done 2 mths ago
“Over 2/3 of us (about 70%) believe in God or a ‘universal spirit’, while 24% do not and 6% aren’t sure.”
so athiests hav not made inroads into th vast majority
But worser , “While the ‘not stated’ census category (it’s an optional question) presumably hides atheists and agnostics, the Nielsen survey reports that 11% are non-believers (of th total of 24% non believers) consider themselves ‘culturally Christian’. !!
ie 81% ar influensed by religon Poor Adam will hav th zoimies over this
as to Tim fischer , our esteemed Vatican Rep , very important diplomatic post , south american countrys and many euro ones ar reel strong catholics countrys regarding th Pope more important than Pres and P/M’s so they hav strong reps there and so do we to diplomaic speak , better than war speak
Ron @772. All of that simply ignores energy efficiency. We can have the same standard of living on in some cases half the amount of electricity, using present day, and often very simple technology.
Ron –
Are you concerned the Vatican might declare war on Australia, hence the need for an Ambassador to avert such.
@777, I had to watch that one several times. Greenpeace claim they put their boat in reverse. After watching carefully I’d say I have to agree with them.
Chud Chewer
G’day , my post relied on th very detailed policys optons Countrys took to Copenhaggen , so if we in oz hav a simple energy soluton please explain , with relative costs & releative energy souses %’s inputs
and also Chud Chewer , is it detailed n bob Brown’s written polisys
Maybe Ambassador Fisher (ex-Vietnam soldier) is really working under cover, and is doing recognizance work to calculate the exact strength of the Vatican war machine.
I’m glad you said “IF”! Don’t think to much of your statistics though.
I started work in January 1966 at 8 pound, 2 & 6d or $16.25 per week. A whole $845 per year. Not much chance of reaching $2M at that rate.
To work for 50 years one would have to start at 15 if they were to retire at 65. The majority would start after 20 and retire by 60 if possible. Not too many I know who started at 20 will be working till they are 70.
You gotta live that long for starters!
Ron, energy efficiency is not simple or sexy or likely to be taken serious by the bean counters or negotiators of this world.
http://www.urbanecology.org.au/topics/energyefficientindustry.html
Just a small example.
#778
The 2006 census had 64% christian and 6% “other religions”, so your 70% figure means that the god-botherers have not increased their market share at all since 2006.
A bit of a failure, since the bible exhorts followers to go out and convert the heathens.
#785 – Scorpio
I was just being fiscally conservative. I think your argument would be that the Vatican is costing us more than 6 Australian lives, possibly 12.
If we add 12 + 6 = 18.
18 = 6 x 3. Which could be written as 666
cud chewer
Posted Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 12:07 am | Permalink
“Ron, energy efficiency is not simple or sexy or likely to be taken serious by the bean counters or negotiators of this world.”
IF th negotiators of th world ar not taking your idea serously , then th idea I’m sorry Chud chewer is completeley acadamic seeing THEY th World leaders will deside IF there is to be CC mitigaton and how it is to be achieved
as to “bean counters” , you misunderatands my earlier points #772 as this not accountansy at all doing a company persons tax return p & l statement at all , th World econamy is a globilized market one , reality , and an econamic model is required to reduce co2 becuase co2 is inherant in producton & trade & energy within an economy , which involves sosial & living standards
and ‘just a small example’ is not enuf , need oz costs & energy souses explained to 2020 to get 25% cut
Crikey, the poor old taxpayer is paying for the Devil even !
Gusface @ # 729
TTH has his boat people phobia and PY has his NSW Labor and religion phobias.
To each his own I suppose
My phobia is rats
specifically dessicated rattus
I am sorry if my ars makes you break out in spots.
FACTS ar per ACNielson poll 2 months ago
70% believe in god or a ‘universal spirit’, while 24% do not , so athiests cn eat there hart out as a reel minoritys
and further 11% consider themselves ‘culturally Christian’.
ie 81% ar influensed by religon !
so if athiests ar happy being on 19% ,
then i’m happy for them , i’m actualy happy for everyone
Only th (GG am ‘borrowing one of your words assume apropriate) churlish , would tink oz representaton in EVERY centre of power in th world is not in oz intersts
for diplomatic , econamic , cultural & stratregic reasons
Th Vatican is a power centr in th world
It IS th reason why we AND MOST Countrys ALL hav reps even in corupt dictatorships like some African countrys etc
Athiests prob dont like th Vatican posting as its th Catholic religon centre point and they ar athiests , tough , its still a power centre for that reason , leader of BILLIONS of there religon
Would hav thought even athiests understood rep need everywhere in th globes power centres based on commonsense ,
scorp
“Crikey, the poor old taxpayer is paying for the Devil even ! ”
and i th devils rep , reely reely appreciate your payments by th way
Ron,
You’re worth every cent of it pal!
Keep up the good work in keeping some of these blighter’s here, honest.
Scorp , and nite to you mate
Just had a look at that vid of the protest boat vs japanese whaler.
The Japanese have released a video that seems to show that the Ady Gil was overtaking them and then cut across thier bows. Between powered vessels its the overtaking vessels responsibility to keep clear, so i think that puts the protesters in the wrong according to the rules of navigation at sea.
That said, in the event of a collision BOTH skippers have to account for their actions insofar as what actions they took to avoid the collision. If the Japanese skipper / crew simply kept on going and did not attempt to avoid the collision then they are just as much in the wrong, particularly as (if the report is correct) they rammed the protesters vessel.
Apart from that the buggers on the big boat should not be down there blowing up whales!! I think it was an episode of Quantum on the ABC a few years ago where they organised for a panel of academics in Tassie to review a few hundred published papers from the Cetacean Institute in Japan that claims to be doing this “scientific” whaling. After they had finished they found three or four papers out of the whole lot actually had something of some scientific validity to say (and they were pretty broad on how they assesed that!), AND for which it could be reasonably argued, needed destructive sampling to obtain their data. Their scientific whaling argument is a sick joke, and the cultural argument (apart from a few areas in Japan that have traditionally hunted whales in a coastal sense) is just as poor. Its all about them not wanting to be told, or it seems even asked, to stop.
Still, anyone know what the green laser thing is that has appeared in some of the photos?? I know they are high powered pointers (we use them on astro nights sometimes to point things out), but what are the protesters using them for? Or (tinfoil hat on now), is it a photoshop artefact??
Just ask Franco, Mussolinni and Hitler. They all had concordance with the Vatican!
I wonder what they up to today!
Abbott comes out with a different position on climate change from yesterday and yet he thinks he comes across as “credible”!
I can’t wait for Parliament to resume and see just how Abbott handles it in the hot seat without a sycophantic, partisan media to prop him up. Labor will hammer him!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/coalition-can-be-credible-on-climate-change/story-fn3dxity-1225816773081
TIGER
You didn’t need to go out chasing it. You should have stayed home and did the housework.
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/men-who-share-the-load-clean-up-in-the-bedroom-20100106-lude.html
If I could offer you only one piece of advice to navigate the election year ahead, it would be to approach anyone brandishing ”economic modelling” with extreme caution.
A disturbing aspect of modern political debate is the blind faith placed in such modelling, which, divorced from its underlying assumptions, is at best a leap of intellectual faith and at worst completely wrong. It may give the appearance of scientific discovery, but such economic modelling is closer to the dark arts of astrology and divination.
………
I’m not sure which makes me angrier: economic modelling that produces pie-in-the-sky figures that are meaningless when divorced from their assumptions , or politicians who strip the numbers and use them to manipulate the public.
Jessica Irvine.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/a-political-diet-of-pie-in-the-sky-20100105-ls9n.html
RUDD pictured in bushwalking gear.
ROTFLMAO.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/family-fun-rudds-hike-in-tasmania-20100106-ludj.html
Ratsars
LOL
Economic modelling has shown that the Pope and all Vatican residents will need to be permanently p****d over the next 4 years if the Australian Embassy is to be cost neutral to the Australian taxpayer.
Each Vatican resident will need to drink 17 bottles of Australian wine per day.
Economic Modelling
IF:
1. The population of the Vatican is 800.
2. An Australian company can sell a bottle of wine for $10 to the Vatican, on which it makes a profit of $2.
3. The Australian company tax rate is 30c in the $1.
Thus, the company pays $0.60 to Treasury for each bottle of wine sold.
For Treasury to receive $12million from the company, it would need to sell 20million bottles of wine.
To recoup $12 million over 4 years requires the company to sell 5 million bottles per year. That is equivalent to 13,700 bottles per day.
Each of the residents of the Vatican would need to consume just over 17 bottles of Australian wine per day.
Numerology.
17 can be broken down into 1 and 7. 7-1=6. Any person drinking 17 bottles of wine per day would be seeing treble.
Thus the number is 666
# 804.
OOops……
Assumption 4 should have been included:-
4. It costs Treasury $12million over 4 years to fund the Vatican embassy.
Economic modelling is about as accurate as sports forecasting. Ponting did the tried and true thing by batting first and all the doomsayers now have egg all over their faces.
Mind you, if the parlous Pakis had once or twice restrained their suicidal batting tendencies or taken just one more catch from the many offered, the result would have been very different.
One team knows how to win, the other hasn’t got a clue.
Don 688, thanks for referring me to the article. Apart from being a really poor paper both on a technical and analytical basis, all it told me was that emmitted CO2 and NOX (no mention of S02) from aircraft cruising in the lower stratosphere, eventually migrates to the troposphere. Now if we take a leap of faith and suppose the same is true for S02, and lets just say all of the S02 injected into the stratosphere (via geoengineering) does eventally via convective mixing return to the atmosphere and all is Hydrolysed and returns to earth. I initially stated that according to the text that only a fraction of the S02 current produced by industry ~0.1% (I think) would be required to reduce the suns radiant heat transfer (to offset increases in global temp due to AGW) if placed higher up in the stratosphere. Now from my high school geography (and I am prepared to be corrected by a google assassin) acid rain is most prevalent where heavy industry is concentrated, the Ruhr region in Germany for example, where the effects have been monitored on nearby forrested areas. It would be very safe to assume that the areas most affected have much higher levels of S02 atmospheric emmissions than the balance of the earths surface not in close proximity to concentrated heavy industry. So that the use of a very small percentage of S02 (compared to current S02 atmospheric emmissions) put high up into the stratosphere which may or may not dissiptate back to earth and which is evenly dispersed (and not locally concentrated like it is in the atmosphere) is likely to have zero contribution to acid rain…Please note the liberal use of words such as “likely” and “assume” as I am certainly no expert like yourself in meteorology/geoengineering/earth science…However, if you were living in a small pacific island like Tuvulu and about to enjoy up close and personal ocean views, I would be pretty keen to see additional research done on this as a fallback position, should all else fail….
Are those kids Rudd’s? They look nothing like him and are much taller despite having a short mum.
And have we ever had a dorkier PM?
Howard? McMahon?
Peter Young @ # 802
RUDD pictured in bushwalking gear.
ROTFLMAO.
What am I missing here? I see nothing funny or amusing in this photo. It is a picture of a family going for a walk.
Is this an example of an attempt at political point scoring for no reason at all?
A little but of maturity would, I think, go a long way here.
Another first-class propaganda effort from their ABC…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/07/2787134.htm?section=australia
Is Janet writing the headlines, or just a keen or browbeaten flunky?
Never judge a book by its cover .
scorps
McMahon sounds a bit more interesting than Rudd, but Howie would have to be pretty close.
Rudd’s done some interesting things according to wiki. He used to clean Laurie Oakes’ house to make money while he was studying and his thesis was on the Chinese democracy activist Wei Jingsheng (who I must admit I’ve never heard of but he must have had a tough life).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Rudd
Diogs,
Good to see you focussing on the substantive issues, as always.
Everyone knows that politics is show business for ugly people.
Bob Brown and the Greens trawelling for relevance. A bunch of imbeciles put themselves in physical danger and the Nation should bail them out. I don’t think so.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/pm-should-replace-rammed-ady-gil-greens/story-e6freuyi-1225816922656
Dubbs
#807
“Now from my high school geography… ”
thank goodness there is finaly a poster who has only done high school only , and no Uni , like a level playing fields at last
i’ve folowed your posts wih admiraton for you interst in CC Dubbs , and please keep that interst her , sinceres there
However hav also folowed your posts with alarm because th IPPPC has 4,000 of worlds top scientists from 135 of 192 Countrys and in all there 5 IPPPC Reports spread over 10 years i seen nothing about this s02 being proposed as a soluton Why would that be
GG
I’m finding out lots of interesting things about Rudd.
He hitch-hiked all the way from Nambour to Canberra to study at ANU.
He slept in a car for a while after his family was evicted when his dad died.
His nicknames include God Botherer, Pixie, the Professor of Foreign Policy, Harry Potter and Heavy Kevvie.
His greatest enemy was Latham but he hates Downer as well. Latham variously attacked Rudd as a snake, a traitor and “a terrible piece of work”.
He always wears RM Williams boots.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/20-things-you-need-to-know-about-kevin-rudd/2006/12/02/1164777847544.html?page=2
Dubbs@807:
Glad you caught that, it was the reason I referred to it. There is mixing. Doesn’t matter if it is NOX, SO2 or fairy dust, it eventually mixes with the troposphere.
First catch your SO2, then put it up in the stratosphere. Good luck with that.
So, you are going to have hundreds or thousands of ten kilometre garden hoses held up by birthday balloons pumping SO2 into the stratosphere to ensure that there is mixing? This gets better and better.
It’s a lot easier to fix a problem at source, by reducing CO2 emissions, than it is to fix the symptoms.
Better to not smoke cigarettes and keep your legs than have them taken by gangrene and have to use prostheses. And a lot less expensive and painful.
Contrast that to Howard:
The Age, 6 May 2007
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/a-masters-stroke/2007/05/05/1177788462755.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
So, Diog, your question should be: Have we ever had a dorkier PM than Howard?
Diogs,
Looks like you’ve found all the dirt.
Cuppa
You can be an interesting dork like Rudd. Or you can be an uninteresting dork like Howard.
GG
The article was written before Rudd became PM. You’ll note that they said this;
Looks like they got that one wRONg. He certainly doesn’t have a glass jaw.
Ratsars = #810
If you or Rudd for that matter, want to know the appropriate gear to wear to go bushwalking, I suggest you contact the Ambassador to the Vatican. I am sure he will enlighten you.
It is hilariously funny because Rudd is dressed for a stroll in the park , not a bushwalking trip.
GG
Don’t get too excited. Ron’s pal is coming to Australia next month.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/hillary-clinton-to-visit-for-security-talks/story-e6frg8yo-1225816899629
Ratsars
Posted Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 11:58 am | Permalink
Peter Young @ # 802:
RUDD pictured in bushwalking gear.
ROTFLMAO.
Ratsars:
“What am I missing here? I see nothing funny or amusing in this photo. It is a picture of a family going for a walk.
Is this an example of an attempt at political point scoring for no reason at all?
A little but of maturity would, I think, go a long way here.”
Agree Ratsar on all of your points
Also had about 6 posts using grade 3 maths to snip at Kevin Rudd for appointin Tim Fischer as our Rep to th Vatican All politcal savvy people know we appoint oz Reps to all power centers in th World for econamic , diplomatic , cultural & strateg reasons
Some people just don’t have a sense of humour.
Diog,
In the Dorkiness Stakes, ‘uninteresting’ trumps ‘interesting’ every time.
Ron@825:
Me too. Ratsars and Ron have it right.
I am a bushwalker, I make most of my own gear, and mostly go on trips where there are no tracks, down the gorges to the east of Armidale NSW. I’ve been bushwalking most of my life.
I’ve been to Tassy bushwalking many times, and that walk Kev is on is literally a stroll in the park.
Nothing wrong with that. His clothing and shoes are entirely appropriate. Notice that there are no backpacks, this is just a morning walk, maybe just an hour or less, not even a daywalk. Kev simply does not have time to do the sort of walks I do every week or so.
It is just PY demonstrating his ignorance once again.
don
Have you ever done the Heysen Trial? I’d love to walk it at some stage.
Dio@829:
No, but the Wilpena Pound part looks great, and well worth going on.
I’m off to the Snowy Mountains NP for a couple of weeks at the end of February. Should be a great trip.
Diogenes #808
So bitchy! Dahling!
Ron, sorry to disappoint, I never said I stopped at high school…Graduated in 1988 with a degree in Chemical Engineering…In my line of work we have designed very long tailings lines to pump coal processing plant tailings sometimes upto 5 km using staged pumping into opencut mining voids. These tailings have a specific gravity of up to 1.20 (20% more dense than water). So if we can pump this stuff 5km along the ground, we should be able to pump S02 liquid or gas 8 or 10 km up in the air. Just requires some creative thought. This is not my idea I am just throwing it out their as a potential cost effective approach that should be considered in concert with trying to reduce the current level of C02 we expel from burning fossil fuels and cows farting etc. I haven’t read all (any) the reports but I did hear of geoengineering before reading Dubner and Levitt – so I guess it peaked my interest. No doubt Don will have a good laugh that a tertiary qualified engineer (like himself – I suspect) would even want to discuss what appears to be a goofy idea…But then Don’s an arrogant tool.
Ratsars
Yeah. It’s a photo op – all pollies do it (& currently Abbott’s overdoing it)
Besides, he walked Kokoda with one son, and Joe Hockey; she climbed Kilimanjaro a few months back with one son & Joe, so one assumes they have more than enough trekking gear & knowhow.
My some folks are over-skolling the bitchy pills!
#833
Blame the MSM, not me.
They shouldn’t run inappropriate pics with stories if they want to stop me falling about the floor laughing.
I think that picture of the Rudds was great.
How sexy is Therese looking lately?
Also thanks Diog for the news that Hillary is coming to Oz.
You want a dorky (said in a nice way
) have a look at this!
http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/books/pm-pens-childrens-book/2010/01/07/1262453636796.html
Vera
Whilst you are here, you may be able to help me. I have been searching for info on the radio announcer who stood in the 2003 election in South Coast and got 10%. Yet all the media was about the Mayor who got only 6 or 8%. I am fascinated to know what platform the radio announcer stood on? Did he campaign? Or is 10% just the recognition factor?
Vera – #836
Nice dog.
Humour Upgrade 1.3.1 initiated……..
…
…
Upgrade Failed! It appears the Individual you are trying to Upgrade has absolutely no Humour to upgrade.
Upgrade Aborted.
Peter sorry can’t help you. the only radio announcer I know of who stood for office was Mark Day and that was for the council elections a few years ago.
I was good friends with his mum who used to run the TAB
Peter Young @ # 823
If you or Rudd for that matter, want to know the appropriate gear to wear to go bushwalking, I suggest you contact the Ambassador to the Vatican. I am sure he will enlighten you.
It is hilariously funny because Rudd is dressed for a stroll in the park , not a bushwalking trip.
There is no need for you to display you ignorance and lack of ability to observe together with you rather immature attitude to those that think different to you.
Just look where the PM and his family are walking. It is a path that is sealed. A pair of thongs would be suitable there.
Don’t be misled by a silly sub editor somewhere who is trying to be funny.
As to what an Ambassador to a foreign country has to do with it only you lack of tact and your ill consideration for others together with a desire to bully others who disagree with you can explain.
Your continual efforts to pork fun at the Vatican and those who hold a religious faith is crass and immature. You argue for respect and democracy and at the same time you own actions show anything but respect and a willingness to accept those who disagree with you.
As I said in an earlier post. A bit maturity would go a long way.
Ron @ # 825
I agree with you arguments on this point.
It is clear that some don’t understand the role and objectives of a diplomatic corps and the reason for having diplomatic relationships with as many people in the world as possible.
I am also of the opinion that in this case there is no point in trying to explain it as to paraphrase an old quote – there is no none so ignorant as those who don’t want to learn.
It is also worth remembering that in a democracy we all have the right to hold whatever views we like and also the right to take part in what religious observances we like as long as the observances do not break the laws of that country.
Those that have religious beliefs are in no way limited in their right to express those beliefs or in applying those religious beliefs to how they may vote on any issue.
Countries that don’t give there citizens the right of “freedom of religion” are those we call undemocratic (like China).
It is rather boorish how some here seem to think that China has the right policy in this regard.
Wasn’t it Barry McCaffery the radio announcer who ran as an indepdendant in the 2003 NSW election? I don’t know either btw.
I’ve found the following on Barry McCaffery, the radio announcer to whom Peter Young refers. I don’t think he was particularly controversial – he just wanted Liberal endorsement and didn’t get it. The Liberals were apparently putting it about during the campaign that their polling had McCaffery ahead of their own candidate, but I gather they were lying.
William @ #
LONG-TIME Nowra radio personality Barry McCaffrey (sic) has thrown his hat into the ring for the marginal Labor seat of South Coast.
The spelling of McCaffrey in the above quote may well be correct. I have relatives with the same family name and they spell it “rey”.
I am also aware that there are others that spell it “ery”
I hope this might help in any research might be done.
The NSW Electoral Commission, which I have never known to tell a lie, says McCaffery.
Sorry, I’m a bit slow on this bleak Thursday afternoon…
Isn’t the NSW seat of South Coast held by a Liberal? It’s a pretty safe seat.
It is indeed held by a Liberal, but is not so safe that Labor wasn’t able to win it in 1999. Not sure where anyone has suggested otherwise.
The straw men are coming thick and fast from Ron and the Labor apologists.
We already had an Ambassador to the Holy See before Tim Fischer but the post was shared with Ireland. Rudd made Fischer a resident Ambassador to the Holy See with no responsibility to Ireland.
Toolman on Flirting with The Enemy, via Peter Martin:
Diogenes,
Is that more insufferable whingeing from you or another poor joke?
GG
I’m going to work out a way of including a tube of Araldite with my posts in future so the Labor sycophants can glue together their glass jaws every time their Dear Leader is criticised.
Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. [1] The subject may use:
simple denial – deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether
minimisation – admit the fact but deny its seriousness, or
projection – admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility.
The concept of denial is particularly important to the study of addiction. The theory of denial was first researched seriously by Anna Freud. She classified denial as a mechanism of the immature mind, because it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality. Where denial occurs in mature minds, it is most often associated with death, dying and rape. More recent research has significantly expanded the scope and utility of the concept. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross used denial as the first of five stages in the psychology of a dying patient, and the idea has been extended to include the reactions of survivors to news of a death. Thus, when parents are informed of the death of a child, their first reaction is often of the form, “No! You must have the wrong house, you can’t mean our child!”
From.-. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial
I seem to recall that the Hansonites were fairly thick on the ground in the south coast. If so, I assume they migrated to the Libs and that a fair stack of them subsequently fell off the back of the WorkChoices truck back to Labor.
Local councils are starting on implementing planning restrictions on developments and redevelopments on land that is most vulnerable to rising sea levels, so CC might be a strongish regional rather than just a national sleeper in the coming elections.
Dubbs
Still on the SO2 distractment, I see. SO2 will not stop oceans acidifying.
Get real, get onto some ways of reducing CO2 emissions.
Diogs,
You are a sensitive little pet today.
You, of course, believe that criticising the committed makes you an intellectual when it actually makes you a frustrated non achiever. You’d be great in politics except for dealing with people and having to make decisons.
barking,
Checking up on your condition, again I see.
GG
Looks like I’m going to run out of Araldite.
Diogenes
Posted Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 3:08 pm | Permalink
“The straw men are coming thick and fast from Ron and the Labor apologists.”
Kevin Rudd apointmwetn of Fischer as a resident rep “joins 69 other nations that have resident ambassadors to the Holy See” , including th USA , and Obama appointed a replacement for th prev retiring one in 2009
Based on actual facts re th Vatican apointment , th only Straw man is you A closet Green Straw Man with no facts or understandin of diplomsy
And simply having any go at Rudd , or is it that as you ar an admitted athiest , your feelings ar dislodged You ar wRONg , again
#843 – William
Thanks for that information.
I am just “thinking” about the value of having a high profile, particularly in State elections. I envisaged a factor of between 5-15% for the high profile – without anything else. McCaffery’s 10% seems to fit inside that range.
The Vatican runs one of the best global intelligence operations in the world. It is well worth the investment in a posting for a wannabe middle power which wants a seat on the Security Council.
From Mark at LP:
…
Well the Abbott Everywhere strategy is certainly annoying me. I can’t bear to listen to him much less watch him if he happens to pop up on the news.
One of the great things about the current govenrment is the absence of constant background noise and activity I felt with the previous lot. They were always there, in your face, rubbing someone up the wrong way, playing silly games with some minority group. To me, the current government just gets on with things whereas Abbott just reminds me too much of how tiring and exhausting everything was with the old lot. I’m glad I’m seemingly not alone in this observation.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/do-they-know-its-christmas/
Diogs,
I’m sure you’ll buy the “snarky bitterness” flavour. It puts a shade of Green on your envy.
Just added a pic of Kristina smooching up to da Boss.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter124u/4253291998/
Now taking K. for a stroll in the park. Appropriately dressed – of course !!!
Dubbs@832:
Why thank you! I don’t get compliments like that every day!
confessions
I would have thought that invisibility was death for an Opposition which is trying to overcome a popular government.
Vera@835:
I thought the same. She is looking great. Good on her.
GG@856:
To quote a long time member (!) of this board, “what’s wrong? Got some sand in the vaseline?”
Cheer up, we’ll all be dead in a hundred years. Or less.
Boerwar: I think what Mark’s suggesting is invisibility over the xmas / new year period when people just want to focus on family, holidays, the beach, the cricket and the tennis. At the moment it feels like overkill.
Ron
What’s this “admitted atheist” guff? Does that go with your anti-intellectual and anti-educated bias?
You need to accept that there is a scientifically well-recognised correlation between atheism, higher intelligence and higher education. They tend to go together.
don,
I’m not going.
Diogs needs constant censuring. It makes him feel wanted. I’m sure he takes it to heart as much as I take notice of his little dribbles of criticism.
Boerwar
Posted Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 3:53 pm | Permalink
“The Vatican runs one of the best global intelligence operations in the world. It is well worth the investment in a posting for a wannabe middle power which wants a seat on the Security Council.”
yes indeed And like any power centr in th world th Vatican ambasador provides a Country with diplomatic cultural strateg & econamic benefits , hense we & all Countrys hav ambasadors in such locatons
Timn Fischer being made a resident ambassador brought UP to th level of benefit contact th othr 69 Countrys who hav resident ambasadors hav
so not a queston of religon , simply a queston of oz national intersts to do so , and any objectons misunderstand either diplomasy or ar anti religon based & neither points hav logic re this Vatican apointment
Ron
It’s a shame Rudd didn’t show as much enthusiasm meet the Dalai Lama. I note that Obama also gave him the cold shoulder.
Bill Clinton, George W Bush and a whole lot of other world leaders have. Either China has a lot more sway in the world or we’re getting really spineless politicians.
Or the Dalai Lama is a totally unimportant person, politically.
Diogs, really! On one hand you laud atheism as a sign of intelligence, the next you’re lambasting political leaders for not meeting with a minor religious leader who was appointed on the basis of a few birthmarks, surely a dubious selection process in any day or age.
I’ve never understood the fascination people have for the man.
And he isn’t even a Vegetarian either
Maybe it is because of the Tibet over the evil Commie Chinese thing.
now now diogenes , no red herrings to evade your ilogical post below
Diogenes
#848
“The straw men are coming thick and fast from Ron and the Labor apologists.
We already had an Ambassador to the Holy See before Tim Fischer but the post was shared with Ireland. Rudd made Fischer a resident Ambassador to the Holy See with no responsibility to Ireland.”
Yes I had defended Rudds apointment of Tim Fischer , and abov was your negativ reply back
I exposed th stupidity of your [post in my #859 pointing 69 othr Countrys including th USA ALREADY hav resident ambassadors , making your point absurb
I gav you an ‘out’ for your diplomasy based stupidity by pointing out you ar an admitted athiest so perhaps your Vatican objecton was anti religon based , although even then you still clearly showing NO understanding of diplomasy in th reel World
your response #870 AVOIDED accepting you were wrong to critisise 69 Countrys ghhaving a residemnt Ambasador , with oz being th 70th
INSTEAD you post #870: “You need to accept that there is a scientifically well-recognised correlation between atheism, higher intelligence and higher education”.
Well i’m not ofended if that was an insult or someting by this red herring coment , but reality is you hav still avoided defending your diplomasy based stupidity of citising Rudd’s Vatican resident ambassador apointment , so your closet Greens suport assume is th reason
confessions
yes, I understand the Christmas bit. Still, Abbott has only one option: to make as much noise as possible as often as possible. Silence is sure death. A lot of noise reduces the certainty to a degree of uncertainty.
The Dalai Lamai was selected as the country’s leader by a unelected group of monks on the basis of some sort of religious signs and portents. Weird stuff.
He has about as much legitimacy to run Tibet as do Hu and Wen.
As long as you guys leave the red herrings and Diog for me to chomp, i am a happy chappy
Boerwar,
Abbott can talk as much as he wants, but no one will take any notice. His real problem is, he has nothing to say. His whole strategy is “Ask the Government, it’s their responsibility”. Which is what the journos will eventually do.
Amigo Vera, Diog wouldnt know how to appreciate a beautiful, intelligent and powerful woman like Hillary. It’s a waste on him
GG
I was trying to focus on whether to choose tactical noise, or not: my tactics would be the same as Abbott’s – make as much noise as possible.
Diogenes
Posted Thursday, January 7, 2010 at 4:54 pm | Permalink
#873
“Ron It’s a shame Rudd didn’t show as much enthusiasm meet the Dalai Lama. I note that Obama also gave him the cold shoulder”.
Anothr red herring !!!! , geez , th Dalai Lama has nothing to do with th subject of your #848 post singling out (as a snip) that Rudd had changed th Vatican apointment FROM Vatican/Ireland TO Vatican only and a resident ambassador …,
when in fact Rudds decision was consistent with 69 other Countrys including th USA who ALREADY had a resident ambassador
you ar weigglin and wringlin and sumasaulting backwards with red herrings , to no avails
Either you ar diplomasy foolish , athiest vs Vatican religon offended or a jst pushing your desguised Greens agenda, but irespective , your objectons do not stack up to facts (70 appointees in th Vatican) nor to you understanding diplomasy’s role
Ron
Where have I said that we we shouldn’t have an Ambassador to the Holy See. Your blind zombie-like reflexes can only do one thing and it doesn’t involve your brain.
z
That’s a big own goal there. Rudd met with the Dalai Lama when we was Leader of the Opposition.
But now that he’s PM, he meets with who China lets him meet.
I’m not sure Boerwar. Noise simply for the sake of making noise seems risky for someone most of the electorate knows. As GG points out he’s isn’t saying anything, just negative carping. Surely the danger for him is that people will simply switch off (if they haven’t already)?
Ron
If you’re going to use the number of countries with a resident Ambassador to the Holy See as an argument for it, there are twice as many countries which don’t have a resident Ambassador as do have one.
Therefore you have kicked another own goal.
Just in case people have blocked it from their minds, here is the reference for Rudd meeting the Dalai Lama as Opposition Leader. John Howard met him as well.
http://www.atc.org.au/news-mainmenu-28/1-latest/343-kevin-rudd-meets-the-dalai-lama
Ron@872:
I don’t quite understand what you mean, but I’m with Kissinger and deGaulle:
“Nations don’t have friends, they have interests”
Diogenes #873
You having memory probs, Dio? Rudd has met the Dalai Lama several times, the latest in 2007.
NB: Dio, I see #887 you’ve remembered!
z
You need to be send back to re-education camp.
Who said this?
“I’ve met the Dalai Lama as a major world religious figure, and our discussions centred on questions of religion and faith,” he said.
Hint: He’s now PM.
Oh the Double Standards from the Shock Jocks on 6PR re this “Hoon” and wanting the law to be changed – different story if the owner of the car was a 18 yr old or his parents.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/6653336/hoon-mechanic-has-clients-lamborghini-seized/
OzPol Tragic @ # 889
You having memory probs, Dio? Rudd has met the Dalai Lama several times, the latest in 2007.
OzPol Tragic, this is looking very much like “why let the facts get in the way of a good bit of vilification” on Dio’s part
Well-done OzPol Tragic
Ratsars
If you weren’t such an imbecile, you would have read that OPT had to retract that statement as I had already mentioned that Rudd met the Dalai Lama when he was Opposition Leader.
Don’t let the facts get in the way of making a fool of yourself.
Another own goal.
Diogenes,
Looks like you’ve shattered your glass jaw with an own goal. Have you got araldite in your vaseline.
Diogenes @ # 894
If you weren’t such an imbecile you would realise that the conclusion still stands – “why let the facts get in the way of a good bit of vilification” on you part.
Again you are playing the man not the ball and using silly irrelevant examples to support juvenile attacks on those you disagree with.
It would be nice to see you behave in a mature manner and argue about ideas rather than the faults in your own character.
Diogs
they can only be own goals if you think we’re all towing party lines.
I don’t care whether Rudd has or has not met with the Dalai Lama, it was you who seemed to think it was a problem.
I repeat: he is a minor religious figure and even less important politically. If anything, he gets far more attention than he merits on any account.
Since that’s my own belief, and has been consistently held for many years, I can’t see how it’s an ‘own goal’ – unless you are stuck in the mindset that I’m some kind of Labordroid who has been churned out with my opinions preset by the evil masterminds running the ALP and sent on a mission to convert this thread and its posters to unquestioning worship of the Ruddmeister.
(Hmmm….might be giving a bit too much away there…)
Wow, this is something completely different. Just as well it is not an Irish joke:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/01/07/irish-leader-wife-s-affair-suicide-bid-115875-21948190/
Another wow, Diog, we are a little touchy today. How is Wangker, Wangker?
ratsars
You realise you were wrong don’t you?
z
So is he a minor religious figure, or is he a major religious figure as Rudd, Howard, Clinton, Bush and Blair have said. I’ll go with them over you.
GG
The standard of argument has dropped here seriously since we’ve been infiltrated by a bunch of God-bothering Labor morons.
I never thought I’d say this but we need Psephos back.
Diogs
I’ll let you.
My opinion is my opinion. Sometimes I back it over people such as Rudd, Howard, Clinton, Bush and Blair, all of whom have to play to the audience – most of whom, like you apparently, have brought into the Dalai Lama as an important figure fallacy.
As your posts demonstrate, when it comes to celebrity victims like the DL, politicians can’t win. If they don’t meet with him, they get criticised as being lap dogs of China; so they have to, even if there’s really little point.
What has meeting with the DL really achieved for anyone (other than, perhaps, inner peace and harmony)?
Mind you, I think Richard Gere has a lot to answer for.
Diogs, playing gotcha games like the ones in your post above (criticising someone for not doing something, then revealing that they in fact did, the whole point apparently being to have party hacks blindly fall into your cunning trap) is really beneath you.
That thought’s been crossing my mind a lot lately. Though don’t tell him I said that when he returns.
Diogs,
That’s a terrible thing to say about the Dalai Lama.
William,
I think the real problem might be there are too many commentators and not enough to comment on.
How about settling for bit more maturity and fewer ego trips in the meantime?
Yep, nothing a Newspoll couldn’t fix.
Whatever for?
Too late, thanks to the private message function in Facebook
Actually, he left me strict instructions for me to act on his behalf while he is in Egypt.
Diogs,
You need to be very wary of this sort of stitch up from the hired help.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/lamborghini-impounded-under-hoon-laws/story-fn3dxity-1225817107787
Because Pseph provides the acid the cuts through the grime that sometimes accumulates on PB threads.
Because he is the adult, when everyone else regresses to childhood.
Because his comments are often worth wading through a couple of pages of bile to find (thought not the only one, BB is in that category too).
William
Will you promise to delete my post when he gets back?
GG
My Mazda 2 won’t go 160 km/h except in freefall.
polyquats
Psephos is going to be all fired up on Israel’s role in the ME when he gets back. There will be a huge Clash of the Titans with Psephos (Israel) vs Ron (Palestine). It will be a belter.
Not sure. At least he admits he’s a labor hack. Although it does still limit the breadth of his expressed views, as with the other, lesser, hacks. But his colours are on his mast, which is more than can be said for those who pretend to approach issues independently, and just happen to always end up on the side of Labor policy. Miraculous that. Move over Australia’s newest saint – others await beatification
Psephos doesn’t suffer fools gladly, and his absence has permitted them to multiply on this site recently.
Psephos’ wide knowledge and ascerbic responses also kept the excesses of otherwise relatively sensible posters in check.
Psephos also has a job which permits him to visit here regularly, if not continuously, and his constant presence ensured that the profound nonsense, lies and smartarsed snideness of certain posters did not go unchallenged and unexposed.
I don’t always agree with Psephos, and sometimes object to the rabidness and intended or unintended cruelty of his comments and put downs, but by golly he keeps the pests at bay.
Vera, FulvioS regards us as ‘lesser hacks’!! lol.
FV@914:
Did he keep TTH at bay? I hadn’t noticed.
“Lesser hacks”.. Ouch!
Zoom, i never had anytime for a celebrity “religious figure” like the laughing Dalai Lama. He and his clique were the most feudalistic and oppressive lot that has kept Tibet in dark ages until the PRC threw them out. Good riddance, i say.
Because sometimes the Herr Doktor is a fool himself.
don
Agreed.
Psephos has always been the easiest person to bait because he is so predictable. bob1234 and Truthy had a field day with him.
Hey, BH, don’t confuse me with Jaundiced View. I’m as much of a hack (in the Pickwickian sense) as you are!
Don. there are some insects even a nuclear bomb can’t destroy.
All this pining for Psephos only proves that nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
Excessive Diog, excessive.
Didn’t Rudd allow the Uighur spokesperson from Xinjiang provine (Reba Qadir or something like that) to visit Australia? Who then gave speeches denouncing the Han domination of Xinjiang and calling for Uighur autonomy within China? Doesn’t sound like the action of somebody who only dances to Beijing’s tune.
Oh looky sooky pooky, j.v., really, how puerile.
We all had a group hack hug a year or so ago, where we all nailed our colours to masts and announced our hackery, lesser or otherwise.
To accuse Labor supporters of hackery seems to be the – I was going to say ‘last’, but often it’s not – laziest way of avoiding an issue.
If you don’t think someone’s posts have any merit, ignore them or don’t read them or STFU them. There is absolutely no need to cast aspertions on people’s motives, or to suggest that they’re not thinking for themselves. If you believe the latter, challenge their arguments; if they have no comeback, then yes, you can assume they’re just repeating the phrase du jour and have no understanding of the issues behind it.
Given the range of views on a number of issues I’ve seen demonstrated here, there are few posters who are here just to toe party lines (hmmm I said tow before).
And Greens are just as prone – if not more prone – to hackery. I’ve rarely seen one of the professed Green posters here criticise any action of the Greens as a party, although they will all tell you how often they disagree with BB (just not in print).
Diog does make Psephos looks lovable
Finns
Tibet was feudalistic and in the Dark Ages but China wins by a mile as an oppressive totalitarian government which happily tortures and kills its subjects.
BTW, talking of hacks – although, tragically for him, a realistic one – WHERE IS GLEN?
Fulvio – apologies. Too much vino at dinner tonight I think.
JV – ‘hacks’ actually stand for something even if others disagree. Hacks also get the chance and have the right to tell their respective chosen pollies when said pollies are being gooses.
Hacks get to find out first how the booths have been going on polling day – before even Antony knows. It’s either uplifting or downright depressing but interesting all the same.
Diog, sure. tell that to the serfs of Tibet under the Dalai Lama clique.
Diogenes,
So said by a rich white anglo saxon sipping his Charddy from afar.
China has raised about 500 million people from abject poverty during its lastest development phase.
China is far from perfect. Your ability to look at only one side of the ledger only is shameful.
Diogenes, I think you are being a bit harsh on the Chinese. Yes, there is corruption, it’s an authoritarian state where there is zero tolerance of political dissent, and many other bad things happen. But it is also a state which has lifted hundreds of millions of its citizens out of abject poverty into a life not totally different to that which we enjoy. In just 30 years! You need to look at the whole picture. Have you been to China? If you think it is just a giant North Korea, you’ve got it wrong.
Parramatta Centrist, Diog simply reminds me of that little froggy looking up the well.
Seeing the Sea Sheperd boat get hit made my day.
It was like someone parking their brand new Ferrari in front of a runaway freight train and then crying lemon drops when it was wasted.
Note for future reference: Don’t put little expensive boat infront of big heavy boat.
See, Don?
Last time the DL was discussed here it made me do a little research into Tibet’s history and its religion.
What an eye opener – Finns is right. It was a monstrous place for the lowly Tibetans.
GG
China put all those people into poverty in the first place and has one of the worst human rights records in the world.
They snuffed out about 30M of their own people.
Toothy, when i saw that speedboat rammed by the Japanese Destroyer, it could been you at the Arafura Sea on your sea patrol. You better watch out for the Indonesian Navy.
Here’s a paper by the ratbag Paul Watson from the Sea Shepherd. These jokers are looking for a gas leak with a match. They better hope they don’t find one.
http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/editorial-070504-1.html
Diog, i raise you. The Japanese killed 70m Chinese from 1931 to 1945. As far as i can tell nobody has ever tried to trial the Japanese over this and Japan dont even mention and teach teach its students about and over this. You got the nerve.
Diogs,
Which Chinese. Name names.
PC
Yes I have been to China. And of course it has improved the lot of its people.
That doesn’t mean that it is immune to criticism.
Diogs,
Your regular cop out. Make a bold and stupid statement. Retract when challenged. Blame every one for being mean to you. Whine it’s all a Labor hack conspiracy to shut down discussion.
You really are full of it.
It was war. People died.
We need to forget about the past and move towards the future.
Finns
I’d like to see a reference to that. I normally find Chairman Mao at the top of every list of responsible for the most deaths, followed by Stalin.
GG
What comment have I retracted?
Toothy, you are a real idiot. It wasnt war. Japan invaded China. Climb back to your slimey hole and pick somebody your own size.
TTH,
Yes a future filled with boat people joined together as an armada of ethnic street gangs to destroy the speed cameras at Tully.
Diogenes, I don’t think anyone familiar with Chinese history would dispute that the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward were catastrophes for the country, or that Mao was a deeply evil man. But I don’t see how China “put all those people into poverty in the first place”. They were already in poverty. It’s only since 1980 that things have changed. China’s achievements under Deng Hsiao Ping and his successors have been impressive. What other country has done more to improve the lives of it’s citizens? If China had a free referendum, and the choices were “keep current system” and “introduce Western-style multi-party democracy”, “keep current system” would win in a landslide!
Diogs,
942 is the classic Diogenes shuffle.
Diog, according to the Japanese. they didnt kill any Chinese. Like Toothy said it was war. You and Toothy are on the same level. Shame on you.
So are the Japanese. Sorry to drag you in Bob.
It was war. People died.
We need to forget about the past and move towards the future.
Yeah, that Hitler chap wasn’t a bad fellow either, it was a war, and in war people die.
Those who do not learn from the mistakes past are condemned to repeat them yada yada yada etc etc
Seriously, if I made such a monumentally stupid statement like yours I don’t think I would ever be able to trust my own opinions ever again.
Finns
All I asked for was a reference, preferably a book.
My favourite book ever “The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle” mentioned it.
Finns
Is this why you are grumpy? Did you get in trouble?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/trainer-injured-by-falling-dolphin/story-fn3dxity-1225817107585
Diogenes, give Finns a break. You know that he doesn’t have an opposing thumb to hang onto the bar.
Diog, btw, my Japanese good friend in the Gifu City told me today that the whaling incident is also big news in japan. See, i have forgiven the Japanese. There is a big stone in a ShintoTemple near Fukuoka, Kyushu, it inscribed: “No more war between China and Japan”.
Finns
The book talks about Japanese atrocities in Manchuria pre-WWI but it doesn’t provide a context. It refers to it as a Forgotten Holocaust or similar but that’s about the only time I’ve seen it referred to in much detail.
Whoop, should be pre-WWII.
What do they call it when a country attacks and invades another country?
Oh thats right. War.
Anyways, this “past guilt” thing is rubbish. It’s like the “sorry” industry… why the hell should I be sorry just for being born White, isn’t that racist towards me?
Finns, can you point me to a source for the Japanese killing 70 million Chinese?
Bilbo, my own source.
I see. Perhaps a joke has gone over my head.
I never said don’t learn from the past.
But people harping on about it all the time is annoying.
Yes yes, WW2 was very bad but it was over 60 years ago. Bad stuff has happened in the past it is now time to move on.
Bilbo, i have own sources. You or anybody dont have believe me. You can do your own research in Chinese sources, not western sources.
Like I said according to the Japanese, they murdered any chinese, it was just war as somebody has just said.
Finns
You’ve been a bad dolphin.
they murdered any chinese, = they did not murder any chinese,
Toothy going on about racism makes me think he must really be Glenn Beck
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32197648/ns/politics-more_politics/
Yes yes, WW2 was very bad but it was over 60 years ago. Bad stuff has happened in the past it is now time to move on.
I suppose that means you hold no grudges in relation to the evils of communism, the millions sent to die in the gulags in Russia by Stalin, or the millions who starved to death in Mao’s cultural revolution?
What’s happened has happened and it’s now time to move on, am I right?
Talking about racism…. Racist Stupid Americans with no idea on Australian Culture have demanded an Australian TV Advert be removed from our screens after it showed an Aussie cricket player sharing some greasey chicken with some West Indies fans.
First we can’t dress up as the Jackson 5, now we can’t share chicken with black people. Can the Yanks PLEASE PLEASE keep out of our affairs, or at least buy a clue?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/06/kfc-advertisement-accused-of-racism
Finns
Give us a clue. I found this website on Japanese War Crimes. Are you talking about the biological warfare?
http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/
Talking about war crimes – what about the Crusades?
Diogenes
#884
“Ron Where have I said that we we shouldn’t have an Ambassador to the Holy See”
Lets look at what you actualy said , and NOT what you NOW falsely claim to hav said !
Diogenes
#848
“The straw men are coming thick and fast from Ron and the Labor apologists.
We already had an Ambassador to the Holy See before Tim Fischer but the post was shared with Ireland. Rudd made Fischer a resident Ambassador to the Holy See with no responsibility to Ireland.”
You sniped at Rudd for his Ambasador CHANGE of FROM Vatican/Ireland TO Vatican only and a resident ambassador
You were made to look diplomasy stupid because 69 other Countrys including th USA ALREADY hav a Vatican only and a resident ambassador !
You still look just as diplomasy stupid , but also someone per #884 who is less than frank A normal Greens Hack approach
Hmmm. Finns might be closer to the truth than I gave him credit for. I’ve got a reference for the Japanese being responsible for up to 20 million civilian deaths in Asia between 1931 and 1945. The chapter by Werner Gruhl gives that figure.
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-War-Crimes-Peter-Li/dp/0765808900/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262860589&sr=8-1
Gruhl wrote this.
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Japans-World-War-Two/dp/0765803526
Peter Y went:
Bah, what about the Elamites and their invasion of Sumeria!
“Bah, what about the Elamites and their invasion of Sumeria!”
Had you read your histary , you would know they did hav a war crimes tribunal then
Peter Young, I’m interested into your views on Islamic terrorism. Do you think random killing of civilians in suicide attacks is justifiable because of Western crimes against Islamic nations? Are there any steps to safeguard their citizens you think Western nations are justified in taking against the threat of Islamic terrorists?
What about the Mongolians. they were pretty good and efficient. They killed not only the people, but also the chickens, the ducks, the goats, the cows, the goose, the cats and the dogs, but not horses. They loved the horsey.
Oh Crap. I agree with you on something. Let’s not do that again please.
Comedic interlude – Sarah Hanson Young in her anti-racism spiel today on Aunty’s Unleashed said:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2787261.htm
Bless her naive heart!
Finns
Manchuko and all that
Sarah Hanson-Yong (must be a friend of PY)
“IF Government officials are to be believed, Mr Kumar was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. The attack was “opportunistic” and it was not Mr Kumar’s race that made him vulnerable, but rather the fact that he inadvertently walked into harm’s way.”
Hint hint , must be a racist murder well facts ar:
“Police have not ruled out racism as a motive but say there is NO evidence to support this. “
BUT
V Srinivasan President of th Fed of Indian Associatons in Vic said “he’s holding a news conferense in India to say that last weekends murder was NOT a racist attack”
“Gautam Gupta, secretary of the Federation of Indian Students of Australia, agreed it would be “premature and inappropriate to draw conclusions about the tragedy”.
So Crean was entitled to say :
Australia’s Acting Foreign Minister Simon Crean said there was “NO evidence” that Garg’s murder was racially motivated.
Who do these Far left nerds always assume Australia is wrong & imply it must hav been racists
Th Indian media do NOT complain when 40,000 Indians get murdered every year by Indians , but by golly just one gets murdered here , and we ar racist , Hypacrites
Gus, the widely accepted, by Western estimate, the direct number of people killed by the Japanese during 1931-1945 occupation was about 30m.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
The Chinese also claimed that during this occupation of China by Japan between 1931-1945, there was also wars between the war lords, then the civil war between the KMT and CCP plus those died indirectly due the instability, chaos and famine. The estimate was about 40m. They blame that the Japanese for that. 30m + 40m = 70m. At least, i know how to count.
Finns
I never doubt your word or your arithmetic.
I have read that a figure approaching 50 mil for the manchuko interegnum.
The rape of nanking/nanjing was widely reported as propoganda by the chineses.
Gus, the point that i was trying to make to Bilbo was that:
1. Japan said not many, few hundred thousands plus some accidental deaths
2. The West said 30m
3. The Chinese claimed 70m.
Who do you believe? You make your own call. Nothing is ever black or white when comes to history.
“When Killer Whales Attack” on ABC1 right now!
Should be good watching
Finns
I was reading also about the taiping rebellion.
Some major loss of life there.
Mao apparently built a memorial near the home of the founder.
the Japanese occupation of parts of China from 1931 to 1945 which occasioned the killings of 30 million Chinese, has been called a “Super Holocaust”.
So Adams pro israeli side & there hollywood film makers telling about th “Holcaust” hav been pretending there was not a ‘super holocaust’
th wests indiferense or apeasement (eg USA) over th Japanese invasion of manchuria leads t queston if how much Manchurian mineral riches asisted th building of th Japanese war machine , th very war machine that launched on USA ‘s pearl harbour
I think the best way is to learn what is spin and what is true history.
BH
No need – Possum nails it for us all within a few moments of poll close every time.
eg US Potus election
BTW
When is the next set of polls due?
Gus, there seems to be a bit of a Christmas holiday conspiracy among the pollsters with all of them coming back to work on the 18th. Except for Gary Morgan who I have no idea about.
Poss
NOT.GOOD.ENOUGH>
maybe we could make up a rogue newspoll
Fibs 48 Labs 52
ppm 45-50
No-one would notice
On the Sumerians, mentioned earlier this is enjoyable (warning – creationists may be offended)
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/sumerians_look_on_in_confusion_as
I think there’s a vague chance we’ll get a Morgan tomorrow. Last year they took one weekend off from their normal schedule at Christmas and were then back to business as usual. If they follow that pattern again, they will have been in the field over the weekend just past – which means they might produce a poll based on one weekend’s polling, as they sometimes do, or they might hold back to combine two weekends of polling for next Friday, as they do slightly more often.
thx bilbo
ps has psephos sent you a postcard?
#977
They are the reasons for the attacks. The ‘terrorists’ would see themselves as freedom fighters, not terrorists. Their actions are justified by their god. Thus, the suicide attacks are entirely justifiable from the ‘terrorists’ perspective.
I think the Western nations justify in their own minds all the actions they take. Perhaps, they don’t rely as heavily on having god’s imprimatur for their actons, but I am sure it is also an underlying factor.
With god vs god – the inevitable result is mayhem.
Another reason why god is evil. 666
Some of the rational that are posted here are so inept that it’s just not worth responce!
Therefore????
Bit by bit
Victorian Deputy Police Commissioner Kieran Walshe said in an interview broadcast on Channel 7 a few days ago that he did not “believe” past attacks on Indian students had been racially motivated hate crimes.
He has now moved his stance according to the Australian newspaper which claims that on 7 January 2010 he ” acknowledged that some crimes against Indians living in Melbourne had been motivated by racism”.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/police-smeared-in-indian-newspaper-as-ku-klux-klan/story-e6frg6nf-1225817145020
Meanwhile, the Australian High Commissioner to India likewise has moved from the hard line denial that any attacks were racially motivated (IMHO a ridiculous stance to have been adopted by the Police and other urgers).
“The vast majority of cases have been examples of opportunistic urban crime,” Peter Varghese told reporters in New Delhi when asked about the attacks, which the Indian media has labelled racist.
“In some cases, a small minority of cases, there would appear to be some racial motivation. And if that’s the case, obviously we would recognise it for what it is,” he added.
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/current-affairs/some-attacksindians-may-have-been-racist_434286.html
#860
I have come across another example.
David Evans got 14% of the vote in the state seat of Tamworth in 1991.
He ran as an independent. I have been unable to ascertain any particular platform he ran on but understand he ran some “feel good” TV commercials.
He fronted the nightly half hour local news segment, broadcast by NEN-9, transmitted from studios located in the city of Tamworth.
Both McCaffery (South Coast 2003) and Evans (Tamworth 1991) contested rural or regional seats, where a high profile in the geographically isolated areas are probably easier to achieve than in metropolitan seats. However, I will keep looking. What I am really looking for is candidates who really had no platform and did not actively campaign, in order to isolate the value of a high profile as a stand alone factor.
It’s hilarious to watch governments as they head to the polls, particularly when they are behind in opinion polling.
Remember, the Liberals “leadership crisis” in September 2007, when Howard even considered stepping down as leader, in an attempt to avert disaster at the poll due that year (actually held in November).
The UK is due to go to the polls this year (May ?). The government is badly behind in opinion polling but has made some ‘recovery’ of late. Almost in textbook fashion, members of the PM’s party have been agitating for a spill – even this close to an election. It seems the crisis has been averted for the moment.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6978410.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6978491.ece
Meanwhile back in Australia, chapter 10 of the textbook is also being followed with the NSW government changing leaders a respectable 15 months out from the 2011 election, after having already changed leaders once before in the current term. If polls don’t pick from a record low of 26% for the government, will we see another leadership challenge closer to the March 2011?
Well, well, well.
The Australian reports that Peter Spencer, pole sitter extraordinaire, has a history of threatening self harm when he didn’t get his own way, that he is not a farmer, but was in business and PR, that he owns very marginal land whose farming potential is highly questionable, and owes a family member a million dollars he borrowed but can’t or won’t pay back.
And he’s been taking vitamins, lemon juice and water, which by the look of the photo of him on the OO’s site, must be highly nutritious, if not outright fattening.
Further, his own brother says the whole episode has little to do with compensation, but a whole lot to do with other, unspecified, issues, and blames the media and self serving politicians for beating the whole thing up and using him for their personal political advantage.
Now, Barnaby, tell us more about this valiant hero of the land, and why Rudd should waste any time on him.
For me, the biggest surprise is that the OO would publish this admission. Probably the only example of honest, factual reporting of a political story by them since Labor won office.
Fulvio Sammut @ 1003 – Mr Spencer in a sense is representative of farmers, and specifically the sense of grievance, and expectation that the community owes them, which so many of them manifest.
I can’t recall a single period in my life when the farmers weren’t whingeing about one thing or another. One thing that particularly sticks in my mind was an interview with a farmer rep some years ago, when something unfortunate but predictable had happened, and he was saying “we don’t want loans, we want grants!” When mutual obligation was all the rage, can anyone remember the concept being applied to farmers?
There are undoubtedly some great people out on the land. But I have zero sympathy for the ones who “minimise” tax through family trusts, blow the money they make from the good years, hold their hands out when the bad years come, and assume that the community is obliged to maintain their lifestyles by keeping them on marginally viable farms. Like everyone else, they have a choice of jobs: nobody is forced to be a farmer.
Here’s the story
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/family-financial-dispute-helped-send-hunger-striker-peter-spencer-up-the-pole/story-e6frg6nf-1225817155039
GG@939:
I must have missed something. It just looked like typical looney green stuff to me. Living in small villages separated by wilderness.
The usual ratbaggery, just taken to extremes, and it’s never going to happen.
What amuses me is that it was written, and will be read, on a PC, the product of the same technology driven society that he pours vitriol on.
FV@935:
No, I don’t.
TTH has been remarkably consistent in his stupidity, Adam’s presence did not make one iota of difference.
Your faith in the messiah is touching but misplaced. I have no idea why you think he is anything but a condescending arrogant so and so.
Don @ 1006
And that he says all sea travel should be by sail.
Nice to see him leading by example.
Peter at 1001:
This is very similar to Noel Brunning, who ran for the federal seat of Forrest in WA (safe Liberal) at the 2007 election. He reads GWN TV news, which transmits to most parts of rural WA and is run out of Bunbury, the regional city which makes up about half Forrest’s population. He got about 15% of the vote, too.
I doubt it.
You ‘d have to admit that this Nicholson cartoon is funny
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/cartoons
#1009 – Bird of paradox
Many thanks, Another one to add to the list.
#1010 – Gary Bruce
-[ I doubt it.]
So if it happens, you will be very surprised – shocked even.
I don’t read the Australian newspaper, Thus I am very glad to read the posts on this site. I get to see all the interesting things I would otherwise miss.
$9000 to chair a meeting on ethics. I hope they can see the irony.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw-labor-mps-accused-of-double-dipping-on-salaries/story-e6freuy9-1225817143152
Peter: a couple more for you… the best performing independents at the last WA election. (Apart from sitting independents or ex-party members.) There was Carol Adams in Kwinana, who got 23.0% and damn near won a totally unlosable Labor seat, and Bill Stewart, who got 17.9% in Carine (came third). Adams was mayor of Kwinana, Stewart a Stirling councillor. Another Stirling councillor, Elizabeth Re got 9.1% in Scarborough, but then got re-elected with 70% in Doubleview ward in the council elections a year later, so obviously being on the council ain’t everything.
Bird of paradox – #1016
Many thanks again. However, subject to checking, I suspect the recent ones you have nominated probably had a platform (other than – “You know me, you trust me, Vote 1 for me”) and probably actively campaigned.
Still interesting though.
That’s another over reaction.
Peter, nothing shocks or surprises me in politics. KK has been put there by the dominant right and, unless she is found sleeping around or taking bribes I’d say she is going to be there to face the music. Someone has to be the sacrificial lamb for the party. If she can save some furniture that will be a bonus.
DIOGENES – #1015
Don’t get me started !
I am actually doing the research right now to try and ascertain if in the course of this parliament there are any Labor MP’s who are not presently, or haven’t been, in receipt of additional salary. I have a fair bit of work to do, but I have come up with one person who qualifies (and I’m not expecting many more). That person has been reported to be the wealthiest man in the NSW parliament.
PY
They reckon there are 7 of the 70 who haven’t got anything for chairing committees.
Interestingly I was talking to a person who is involved in the production of news for a commercial tv station recently. Her explanation why some stories got a run and others didn’t, and the “slant” on news was that the producers selected those items which they perceived would maintain or increase market share. She said the item had to be slanted to the demographics of existing viewers. She said it had to be what they wanted to hear and see. If it wasn’t that, viewers were likely to switch channels to find news that was within their comfort zone.
A book is to be written by Tony Blair’s former Chief of Staff and called ” The New Machiavelli: How to Wield Power in Modern Britain”.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6978430.ece
I wonder if it might have any relevance to Australia?
Don, you misundersood my “See, Don?” post.
You said Psephos did not deter the likes of TTH.
I said a nuclear bomb could not destroy some insects.
TTH posted a few moments later.
I said “See Don?” inrelation to TTH’s continued posting.
Oh well, it seemed funny at the time …
#1019 – Gary Bruce
Are you saying the decision to appoint Keneally has nothing to do with the good governance of NSW over the next 15 months, but simply to save some Labor furniture?
Fulvio
It looks like the ability of insects, esp cockroaches, to withstand a nuclear bomb are overrated although some wasps and the humble fruit fly are pretty good.
Deinococcus radiodurans, or Conan the Bacterium, seems to be the king.
Whoops.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/02/23/1567313.htm?site=science/greatmomentsinscience
FV@1024:
Whoops! Sorry about that.
If its any consolation,I got your jape.
I don’t recall saying that.
In fact Peter I said quite the opposite. To save the furniture she will have to show “good governance”. Surely even you can see that.
http://climateprogress.org/2010/01/07/accuweather-meteorologist-joe-bastardi-pushes-the-70s-ice-age-scare-myth-science
Bastard by name,bastard by nature.
LOL the anti-whaling boat has sank.
That was millions well spent. Maybe next time they should learn NOT to park their lightweight highly expensive dingy infront of a large fast moving ship.
For those in South Australia who saw the Peter Spencer article on Today Tonight (I assume it was shown elsewhere) I e-mailed Channel Seven drawing their attention to the article in the Australian and also to the fact that what Spencer is protesting about is in response to what I believe is Howard government legislation. Mentioned that it was the usual beat-up that they present and perhaps they might in the light of the article in the Australian that they might retract their story and perhaps an apology to Kevin Rudd might be forthcoming for trying to blame him for all of Spencer’s woes or from the presenter Paul Makin in particular. I won’t be holding my breath waiting for one however.
What price the apology now?
Some whitefella votes and some squeals from the tourism industry finds Rudd wanting in the balance.
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/uluru-climb-stays-open-after-ban-rejected-20100108-lxse.html
SNIP: Racist comment deleted – The Management.
#1031
Well some people are hoping both the commode chair and the closet get swept away with the tsunami.
Troothy a racist? NEVER!!
I didn’t even say anything racist.
Bit like calling me a racist for saying MovieWorld tickets are over priced.
Did you know a true racist never believes they say anything racist?
… because the entire racial group responsible for pricing MovieWorld tickets are “swindlers”.
Looks like the Peter Spencer thing may be a League of Rights beat-up. With the revelations in the Australian newspaper and certain conspiracys being put about e.g. that some bus companies received calls claiming to be from the RTA warning anyone who drove a bus to the protest would lose their license, and thus protestors were either prevented from travelling to Canberra or had to go by car, it certainly looks that way.
The editor of the regional newspaper, the Northern Daily Leader, wrote this:-
http://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/farmers-death-can-be-avoided/1717196.aspx
Sounds like the Citizens Electoral Council or the League of Rights or whatever they call themselves.
When I said that I was referring to the individuals in charge of administrating said attraction, not the entire population. Simply a misunderstanding.
If anyone wants to see a giant big bloody rock, save yourselves $25 bucks and come to Townsville. You can climb up our big rock in about 20 minutes and get a great view of Magnetic Island, then climb back down and you are about a 10 minute walk down to The Strand where you can spend your $25 sitting on the beach drinking Goldies.
I have happy memories of The Strand – but I don’t think they are fit for publication on a family orientated website like this.
So that means everyones a racist? Do you admit you are racist?
What a silly statement to make.
Toothy
I’m sure you will be just as accommodating to the rights of the tourists next time a group wants to climb onto the altar at St Peters and have a picnic. Because that is how the indigenous people view tourists climbing on Uluru.
I’m doing my bit to discourage tourists from going to Ayres Rock at all.
You should be thanking me.
Boerwar @ 1035.
Most systems of religious belief have their sacred areas, call them churches, mosques, temples, shrines etc, confined to specific defined locations, usually built by the followers of that religion, and access to them is controlled by recognised religious authorities in accordance with clear and defined rules.
It is therefore relatively easy for well intentioned societies to respect the sanctity and exclusivity of these sites.
Aboriginal culture as I understand it, considers all land and sea as being vested with religious significance, with certain expansive geographical areas having more religious significance than others.
Like it or not, this continent is largely now inhabited by non Aboriginal people (I understand only some 3% claim any degree of Aboriginality).
To fully respect and accede to the religious beliefs of the Aboriginal people would require and involve the virtual cessation of all non hunter gatherer activity within the continent and surrounding seas. As a matter of practicality this cannot occur.
It therefore becomes a balancing act on the part of the Government to accommodate the reasonable needs of the general populace, including finance, commerce and tourism, as well as the beliefs and expectations of that small percentage which is Aboriginal.
It would appear to me to be self evident that in seeking to achieve this balance , the needs of the majority will to a large extent have to overide the beliefs of the minority.
This is an entirely separate issue from society’s obligation to provide for the physical well being of the dispossessed and disadvantaged.
It is the Aboriginals love, respect and worship of the land, which is all pervasive, that makes it impossible for any Government to satisfy what to Aboriginals are legitimate demands.
All this, and most other Governments, have and are trying to do, with varying degrees of success or lack of it from a practical viewpoint, and with no possibility of success from the Aboriginal perspective, is to strike some form of balance.
Truthy,
Whatever……
I am doing my bit to discourage them from going to St Peters.
Was the “J” word mentioned William in a “semetic ” way William?
Fulvio
Very well said.
It was not mentioned at all. The MovieWorld thing was purely an analogy.
IT seems rather than “calming” the situation Victorian Police are inflaming the situation by “condemning” the Indian KKK cartoon. Would have been better to have just let it go through to the keeper. Now they have offended all the Indian newspaper readers who saw the humour in it.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/police-smeared-in-indian-newspaper-as-ku-klux-klan/story-e6frf7jo-1225817213533
Fulvio
1. Indigenous people do not claim that the whole of Australia is sacred.
2. Uluru is particularly sacred to Indigenous people who are its traditional owners.
3. Indigenous people have made it very clear they do not want people to climb Uluru.
I trust that the next time Mr Rudd does a doorstop interview outside his favourite Canberra christian church some enterprising journo asks him the following question:
‘Mr Rudd how would you feel it total strangers took it upon themselves to start climbing over the altar of your church and defecating on it? Further, Mr Rudd, how would you feel if this was made possible because that is the way the Prime Minister of Australia wants it?’
The apology was about a terrible catalogue of wrongs done to Indigenous people.
The apology is unfinished business, because, unlike when non-Indigenous people are wronged by Australian governments, there has been no compensation.
The apology is further tarnished when new wrongs are egregiously added to old wrongs.
Rudd cannot have it both ways.
don
Posted Friday, January 8, 2010 at 6:59 am | Permalink
“Your faith in the messiah is touching but misplaced. I have no idea why you think he (Adam) is anything but a condescending arrogant so and so.”
a condescending arrogant so and so , knob , is th word that comes to mind
a snobby academic over eagr to show how much he “learnt” at Uni , wishing to use th Labor Party for his advansement , but without any ‘feel’ for who Labor represents (being th varous broad groupings of ‘working familys’) , which is th reverse of what he actualy is
I hear and am sympathetic towards your argument. Personally, I would not climb Uluru as a gesture of respect towards Aboriginal culture and beliefs.
But Uluru is not just a part of Aboriginal beliefs, it is also a part of Australia, it is a huge, unique and magnificent geological structure and is a world heritage listed area.
In a very real sense it belongs to the world as well as to indigenous Australians, and the world is surely entitled to see it and touch it.
I don’t claim to have the answers, but I think I have correctly identified the questions, and it is just not practical nor reasonable for such a universal treasure to be the exclusive domain of one culture.
Didn’t Paul Hogan famously say in the movie Crocodile Dundee: The traditional people don’t believe they own the land, they are simply looking after it. It will still be here long after they and us are gone.
I have to agree with this view. The “we own this” thing has got to stop. Fair enough they can take care of it, but if walking up is not damaging anything wheres the problem.
Ronster
Adam is going to be just thrilled to have you back. We’ll stick up for you when he demonstrates his ignorance of the superiority of your much more sophisticated language over his very proper Oxford English.
Oh goody. Lord “lock up everyone with AIDS” Monckton is coming out for the next reading of the CPRS.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/climate-sceptic-high-priest-lord-monckton-to-tour-australia/story-fn3dxity-1225817401456
New thread.