Roy Morgan has come through with the first poll of this election year, and it’s a peculiar beast combining face-to-face results from last weekend and the distant weekend before Christmas (December 19/20). Labor’s primary vote is down 3.5 per cent to 45.5 per cent and the Coalition’s is up 1.5 per cent to 37 per cent, with the Greens up two to 10 per cent. On two-party preferred, Labor’s lead is down from 59-41 to 57-43.
Reflections on the Miracle of Democracy at Work in the Greatest Nation on Earth
Morgan: 57-43
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1,640 Comments
Ha first,I would not mind if the blew that Jap whalers out of the water,they killed two uncles of mine who both survived Changi Prison,and one on the railway,the booze got them both,read Behind Bamboo or the Knights of Bushido,and you understand where they are coming from and how the Japanese should be treated
Perhaps the Sea Shepherd should harpoon David Suzuki.
Fulvio
#1058 end f last thread
“But Uluru is not just a part of Aboriginal beliefs, it is also a part of Australia, it is a huge, unique and magnificent geological structure and is a world heritage listed area.”
Well said , but it is also an example of one th main reasons for aboriginee disadvant that neither th Green Hacks and th Liberal robots undrstand
Aboriginees do not tink they ar part of Australia at all , aboriginees believe they ar australia and us 20 millions is not part of australia So before they start , Aboriginees leeders ar denial of th VERY Western civilizaton econamic & sosial model REQUIRED to deliver any peoples incl aboriginees living standard improovments
geograph , many aboriginees locate in areas so remote from industry & servises its not cost eficent to provide all servises and/or there is no industry there for jobs , even if they sent there kids to school….which of itself is anothr denial of Western methods , self fulfiling thee kids to th same fate Even when located close to cities , th educ problam of not sending kids two school arises
you can not hav living standards advansement wihout edacaton , and then without being where there is bisnessess to employ them Aborigees can not today keep blamin th past for th now , they hav to take some responsibilitees , but too politcaly corect for people to say so Its not all ANY Govts fault
am not sayin giv up all therecultural thoughts , we don’t ask imigrants to do that either , but to go ahread , must be “part” of Australia , th aboriginees refuse to be , preferring “purity” in poverty
can jst see Adams reply , a histarical lesson of bad events hapening to Aborigees in th past , well that argument plus just pouring my guess 10 billion into aboriginees over 30 years , is proven to be a failutre seeing there has been little reel progress
Ron
Adam’s comment would be much the same as yours. He believes that until indigenous people become Westerners that they will not achieve the health outcomes etc that are found in Western cultures.
They can choose to remain in a separate culture but they can’t have it both ways.
Before I cop it, I’m just the messenger on this one.
Many people here esp Boerwar feel very differently to Adam.
John: Unless the ‘Jap whalers’ served as guards at Changi Prison, your notion would seem to be a non sequitur.
Let’s see, what other ‘national’ icons do we have where people have open slather to climb it like they do Uluru?
1. War Memorial? Try defecating on that. Try climbing the exhibits. Nope. Must be a different rule for that national icon.
2. Cathedrals in Melbourne and Sydney? Try climbing them. Try defacating in the choir stalls, let alone the altars. Nope. Must be a different rule.
3. Sydney Opera House? Everytime someone climbs that and hangs something off it they get arrested. Nope. Must be a different rule.
4. The wreck of HMAS Perth, a national icon and a war grave? Just try diving on that. You would be arrested under the War Graves legislation. Nope. Must be a different rule.
5. Would you like to drive to the top of Mt Kosciusko? Do it and get arrested. Nope. Must be a different rule.
Anyone for ‘balance’?
Looks like there is one rule for Indigenous ‘national’ icons and another one for whitefella national icons.
The very basis of Rudd’s apology has been eroded with this decision.
Dio@4:
For once I agree with him. Put a nick in the radiogram.
Ron
Various Australian Govts placed the Aboriginals in the communities where they now lived, it’s not a ‘denial of Western methods’ – it’s a product of Western Methods.
The problems Aborigines face are largely a product of Western Methods. We see the same problems in Nunavut, in the First Nations People in the US… in almost every country that has been colonized and the indigenous people displaced. So I ask you what’s more likely? Is it the fault of these indigenous cultures or the largely Western Cultures that displaced them? To my mind it makes more sense that given all underwent a similar the process of displacement, it is this process that creates problems.
Dio, I think Adam’s philosophy on this issue is pretty simplistic and that this statement (assuming he made it) is creating a false dichotomy
There is no unique Australian or Aboriginal culture for anyone to belong to.
Also note that we (and yes I mean you and I) have profited a great deal from their displacement.
Oops the last sentence was supposed to be directed at Ron.
#Boerwar
You can’t even sit on the steps of the War Memorial in Hyde Park without some security guard telling you to p. off. Hardly a “living memorial”.
Then famously a few years back the Premier of NSW went ballistic when some juveniles “graffited” some war memorials, claiming they were destroying the memories of their forebears who fought to give them the freedom to be out late at night. My obvious question was – What were the Premier’s forebears doing in WWII to secure this freedom.
Some ppl just want everything their own way.
For those interested, RN breakfast had a debate on the fltering laws this morning. Must say the opponent of the filter was fairly unintelligible and incoherent. Clive Hamilton cleaned him up fairly comprehensively.
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2010/01/bst_20100108_0743.mp3
don
Perhaps the argument was easier to agree with sans the patronising and obnoxious tone.
NB I used “sans” in tribute to his style.
GG
I think you are merely experiencing confirmation bias.
Clive Hamilton says that we won’t be able to see graphic rape, bestiality disturbing sexual imagery etc with the filter in place.
That’s simply not true. The filter won’t stop people looking at it. The problem is that the technology can’t stop it because the technology doesn’t work.
Remember this system relies on the public alerting the govt of suspect sites.
It’s going to be another grocerywatch for the Govt, because they will continuously reminded of when it has failed.
John
My Dad had holidays at Changi, the Burma railroad and Ubon air base courtesy of the IJA. He is quite open to discussing his experiences and the issues and bears absolutely no animosity to the grandchildren of the perps.
After decades of badgering he got a letter that amounted to an apology from the Japanese Government, since handed over to the RSL.
He does think that WW2 will always be unfinished business as long as the Japanese refuse to acknowledge what they did.
He is just one person. Different people respond to such events in different ways. He has no time for hate. He says it just chews up the hater.
Had the misfortune an hour or so ago to catch a Tony Abbott interview on ABC NewsRadio.
Not apparently having the daily inhouse interview with the Liberal leader in the can, they had to therefore replay one from SkyNews.
Poor old Abbott is obsessed with Kevin Rudd. He used the man’s name fifteen times in a few minutes!
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=4459
Surely that degree of fixation is not healthy. Abbott is becoming the Mad Abbott, or has already become.
Am I missing something?
I had the misfortune to listen to “Liberal Radio” in Sydney today, aka 2GB!
When they’re not bashing Rudd or Labor, they’re elevating to hero status this idiot farmer stuck up the pole!
Actually most of what passes for supposed informed comment on 2GB is rather venal and offensive, and I’d advise Rudd not to waste his time listening.
And does anyone else find Abbott’s sudden conversion to the anti-whaling cause completely opportunistic?
Greg Hunt is their media whore, he loves publicity.
Peter Spencer, the business and public relations figure currently on deathwatch, due to his 47 day hunger strike, looks in remarkably good health and makes me wonder if prayers are being offered up to Mother Mary McKillop to intercede. If so, then there is the possibility of a third miracle for us to celebrate.
Diogenes
Posted Friday, January 8, 2010 at 4:12 pm | Permalink
“Ron Adam’s comment would be much the same as yours. He believes that until indigenous people BECOME Westerners..”
crap
i actualy said
“am not sayin giv up all therecultural thoughts , we don’t ask imigrants to do that either , but to go ahread , must be “part” of Australia , th aboriginees refuse to be , preferring “purity” in poverty”
exampel , we respect say Muslims diferent dressess , veils , there ‘chants’ , special days , kneeling everywheres , fasting for some reason i tink , as part of not just religon but there culture Dittoo , Aboriginees
So respect peoples basic culture pref with some understangng compassions, but it can not over rode how majority of us live in oz , we ar one Nations
but to get improvemts in living standards ad jobs , then you MUST be on th “educaton , econamic and sosial model” bus !!! Asia is still Asian but is driving that bus
its th only bus that goes to improving th disadvantaged , with obvous a small % in each Group noty makin it for many reasons , but with Aboriginees th massive MAJORITY do not make it , as they ar not on th bus
Now what YOU said is Adman’s opinion , of becoming “Westerners” presume culturlesser , which is a diferent opinion to my take , if you aint misquoted Adman
Just a thought on the Democrats (as in the Australian, Don Chipp type).
I’m a reasonably safe vote for the ALP, if they are moderate and good economic managers like Rudd (which doesn’t mean I don’t totally disagree with some of their policies!). But sometimes the ALP really seriously pisses me off, with its regular bouts of factionalism, nepotism and incompetence. Hell would freeze over before I would vote ALP at the next NSW election.
So what do I do? In the past I would have jumped left and voted Green. But from lurking on this blog I’ve learnt a lot about the Greens. They are dangerous extremists, every bit as dangerous as the ignorant hate-filled bigots of the far right. The Greens think our entire society is rotten and want to destroy it, in the name of protecting the environment. To be replaced with what, self-governing autonomous medieval villages surrounded by wilderness or some such rot. No way I’ll vote Green again.
The Liberals? Maybe if they had a leader like Steele Hall, or if Turnbull had purged the far right and dragged them to the centre, just maybe. But a policy-free buffoon like O’Farrell, with a collection of nutters in the background like Clarke, Hawke. No chance.
So what’s left? Where are the Democrats! They are just what I need right now, somewhere safe and non-threatening where I can dump my vote until the NSW electorate sweeps out the trash from the NSW ALP.
So what’s happening with the Democrats? Do they still exist in any credible form? Any chance of them reviving? (I guess not) Gee, Australia would be so much better off if it was the Democrats rather than the Greens with the BOP. You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone……..
Before Westerners brought over toilets, where exactly did they go to the toilet in Uluru?
Maybe they really need to consider putting porta-loo’s onto of Ayers Rock so that people don’t have to do it the “natural way”.
Aborigines can never turn into westerners. They are hunter gatherers, that means they are used to going out everyday looking and hunting for their food(whereas westerners are more farmer/settlers).
Unfortunately due to great stupidity on the part of lefties and bleeding hearts they demanded that these communities have full access to grog, cigarettes and unrestricted welfare benefits.
Now these people have gone from people who used to work all day to get a feed, to having it delivered to them on a silver platter by the government. So if they aren’t hunting and gathering, what do they have to do all day? Nothing, so they get on the grog and sniff petrol to fill their days in.
The solution to this problem is to force anyone on benefits to work. If they don’t work, cut their benefits. I hear there are no jobs in these communities, well the government needs to create them… heck get them sweeping dirt if it fills in the day, ANYTHING to keep them occupied and have some worth to live.
Arbeit macht frei
Parramatta Centrist,
I saw an article on ABC Online at some stage in the second half of last year which was talking about attempts by the Democrats to revive themselves. There may have been a couple, actually.
One of them, as I recall, suggested that they were having a hard time sustaining their registration. Whether this was for a State or Federal election, I’m not sure.
Parramatta Centrist, I understand your dilemma. I’m now at the point that I think that we should do away with state governments. As far as I am concerned they are redundant in this day and age
Sounds like like Lazarus with a Quadruple bypass.
What killed the Democrats was the rise of the Greens. Out goes one fringe left wing party and in comes another.
Jesus Christ, Truthie, get a life!
I had made a pledge not to take thebait, but your @23 is the biggest load of old bull I’ve heard in 20 years.
Yep more denials and excuses and we’ll have another 100 years of failed policy.
We’ve been doing it the lefties way for quite some time now, giving hand outs and free housing… and guess what?! It’s FAILED.
If you keep doing the same thing you will continue to FAIL.
My idea is a complete reversal of the current welfare state system. We’ve heard the same excuses for decades now, it’s really time for a big change in policy.
Bloody hell Toothy, you still refuse to pick somebody your own size.
Cuppa. is that mach 2 or mach 3?
Ronster
I expressed it inexactly. I should have said adopt Western lifestyles. He certainly doesn’t say they have to lose their culture.
Diog, we can always ask for Wacko Jacko’s bleach formula. That will do the trick.
Finns and Cuppa
I saw that they found that famous sign which was stolen a few weeks ago.
And who was it that stole it?
From ’96 to ’07?
Parramatta Centrist,
Where did you get these impressions about the Greens? From Frank and GG? Hardly impartial.
And Ron, if you are going to post an arguament, it would help if you use grammer and spelling so that people can understand what you are saying.
Umm, AS, Greens, Labor hacks, all 3?
Ask a serious question and get a silly answer.
Perhaps from the posts by Bob, Astro Heysen marj etc
Dave@37:
That’s argument, not arguament, and grammar, not grammer!
Always a problem when you criticise someone else for spelling, you have to triple check all posts for the next week or two.
You leave Ron alone, I enjoy his posts. When you can write as well as he does, you can start nitpicking about unimportant things like grammar and spelling and punctuation.
Pedantic things like that are important to me, for my writing, but I try not to inflict my biases on others in that respect. Some fine people with very high intelligence, like Ron, just can’t spell worth a damn, or don’t think it is important enough to bother about.
That was a shocker at 23,Troothy. I think a spell out there, helping out, might give you a chance to rethink that one.
Did anyone see Uhlmann rudely interrupting Peter Garrett at 7.30 tonight. I wanted to hear Garrett not Uhlmann trying to show off his non-interviewing skills.
Did he do the same thing with Tony Abbott the other night? I missed that one.
Gawd, hurry back KO’B.
Finns, Diog,
That’ll be mach 666.
#19 – Billy
ROTFLMAO –
It sounds like it was stolen on order by some sicko collector of memorabilia, rather than being a neo-Nazi plot.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1237423/Stolen-Auschwitz-sign-Arbeit-macht-frei-turns-hundreds-miles-away-cut-pieces.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6980065.ece
Parramatta Centrist 21 – I believe the last Democrat is “leaving the station” at the forthcoming SA election – their last elected representative will depart the SA Upper House.
I have worked around remote aboriginal communities and also varying sized country towns. I have always seen the problems in aboriginal communities as a microcosm of the problems of small country towns generally. If people in a small remote town want a good tertiary education they generally have to leave their town and head to “the big smoke” – later they have to decide between their country roots and their own future. Obviously many then never return, no matter what their original intentions were.
On many other issues there are similarities – the over-dependence on state welfare, the poor access to health services, higher rates of teen pregnancy, the lower life expectancy, the higher suicide rate to mention a few. The “fringe dwellers” in our country are not all black.
GREAT NEWS for CC
AGL stated they ar risking curent investment uncertainty over an ETS , and will plan a gas fired Staton in west Vic & start build now ! , first to speak to vic & Feds probably re planings etx and maybe for some asistanse , hope AGL only asking for reasonable help
Now this 850 m w palase will provide electricity for 700,000 homes , to complete 2012
so its good news week , but a insect spoiler , for “balanse” th News just had to get anothyer opinion in adds to AGL & Vic govt Now would that be th man in th Street re reacton to this reducing CC No not on your lifes , just get some whaco Greens groups “considerd opinion” who says it is not good news as plant will increase CC until a coal fired station is closed , err we know that but that was not th point you whacos
point was good news , a ‘start’ on th long road to replace ‘ocal’ , starting with 800,000 homes , and to build momentm from it politcaly , econmamicly and media wise , not negatives
see i snuk an extra 100,000 homes there , blame it on th Green whaco annoyin me
What is ocal?
It’s the black stuff that they dig out of the ground in Ireland to heat their homes.
Ron
You do know that gas has 50% the emissions of coal and that the leakage of methane, which is a much more potent GHG than CO2, can mean there is very little benefit from switching to gas.
Dave,
I always love it when self appointed monitors like yourself come a cropper. Perhaps, if you can’t handle the pressure of having something vaguely memorable to post, you best worry about the structure of your own posts. I’d start with the notion of having something to say that adds to the conversation.
Try harder, you might be able to do it.
Rocket Rocket
I have always understood that the problems facing aboriginal communities are not to do with race or culture but to do with socio economics.
That is, if you place their statistics against those from others of the same income levels (or lack of) they correlate almost perfectly.
Poor households all over the world suffer from alcohol and drug abuse, child abuse and welfare dependence.
Oh, to second GG’s point there – nothing more boring than posts criticising other’s spelling and grammar, except perhaps posts frantically correcting one’s own.
Perhaps we should all just accept that we type here sometimes in haste and tolerate the occasional error, including our own.
I know there are a few Greens on this site – I have a question for them
Does the whaling issue still occupy a large part of the environmental movemnt’s political platform?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want extinction from whaling, but aside from the spectacle of the aby-gil getting rammed, all this fuss seems to me to be soooo last century.
isn’t the anti-whaling issue it all a bit tired and worn-out…kind of 1970s? I thought there were bigger issues for the Greens at the moment
Just in – news report from the dog park (of particular interest to Truthy). A lady who just returned from 4 weeks holiday in the UK (her home) and had her beautiful puppy puppy-sat whilst she was away, led the discusion. Her points were:
1. It was freezing in London.
2. UK has, since joining the EC , substantial immigration from eastern Europe. Many do not stay long term after discovering the UK is not the paradise they thought.
3. Uk is really the lucky country. Islamic immigrants complain about lack of freedom (e.g. school uniforms) but in their home country, visitors are expected to comply strictly with codes of behaviour – and failure to do so may carry dire consequences.
4. Many asians appear less tolerant of other cultures, than the “west”.
Squiggle,
Where else apart from the armed forces, do you get the chance to trash a $2 milion piece of equipment. It’s the most fun a committed ratbag ever gets.
The Greens on these intervention projects are old farts living their dreams from yesteryear. The point was lost years ago in a haze of ganga.
Has anyone else started getting right wing racist emails telling them a supposedly “amusing ” take on an old fable?
Or am I just the lucky one?
The Coalition must be worried a DD will be sprung on them or they are getting in early with their divisive crap that Howard was so good at pushing!
I notice also that these emails are originally to do with USA politics but a few paragraphs are added make them seem to refer to Oz.
I sent the email back to the “friend” that sent it to me telling her not to send me any such right wing racist crap in future!
No wonder I love animals! (espesially dolphins
) people piss me off, someone outa blow people up 
here’s a sample of part of the email
The ant represents the hard working white guy, the grasshopper is the lazy (insert one) Aboriginal, refugee, Muslum, dole bludger etc
Amigo Vera, where have you been? i miss you too
GG
Sadly I have to agree with you. I’m not a fan of whaling but their priorities are bizarre.
Amigo Vera, how dare that johnny-come-lately poster criticize our Poet, Amigo Ronnie, especially the 4 Amigos are in the same room.
GG – I agree. It was interesting to hear there is a reality TV show filming on the Sea Shephard right now
and while I’m at it, what exactly is so ‘stealth’ about the stealth boat….I mean, I can see it….can’t I? (when its floating, that is)…
is it supposed to be invisible to radar Like a steal fighter? Not much point if your running alongside the Jap Whaler
Diog, it’s good to see you are behaving yourself tonight. Keep it up, you might be rewarded.
Question: Are there bigger fish to fry than whales?
Answer: No
Or Russell Braddon’s brilliant The Naked Island, a personal recounting of life in Changi and on the Burma Railroad. 2 million copies sold.
It’s not blaming the grandchildren of the Japanese WW2 soldier/monsters that is the point. It’s not being able to believe that an entire nation with a rich, long and entrenched history of cruelty and glorification of the warrior can change overnight into a law-abiding, peace-loving bunch of get-along-with-everyones, or for that matter in 60 or 70 years.
Finns
Year they had better leave our Ron alone! He can say and spell however suits him.
Some of this lot aren’t fit to shine his shoes
Hang in there Ron, you are numero uno to us amigos
… which was the subject of a quite amusing recent episode of South Park.
Year=Yeah
Finns I’ve had a couple of rellies stay overnight this week
If it’s a reality show, they sure have an interesting way of voting people off the boat.
Vera, you missed some fun and game last night
Diogs,
I see the Sea Shepherd have abandoned the concept of take all your rubbish with you.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/ady-gil-abandoned-and-leaking-oil-japan/story-fn3dxity-1225817467945
GG, it’s called the Shokkuka of Ginza.
Where’s Bob Brown now, if he was true to form he’d be blasting that Watson wangker for poluting the seas and don’t forget how those greenies hate oil slicks!
Finns,
Is the translation, “Solly sleeps with the fishes”?
Thanks William – I found it its called “Whale Whores”.
Tonight’s entertainment!!!
Finns
I spent the afternoon under the Knowledge Tree reading Daniel Tammet’s autobiography (in the paddle pool as we still don’t have air conditioning). He’s the guy with Asperger’s syndrome and synaesthesia. It was a humbling experience.
GG and Vera – if you want to take the Japanese whalers view of the world you will be well repaid in oil slicks.
And Vera 59 Moral of Story – beware how you vote in 2011. Lets hope the morons behind such twaddle are ready for the election in 2010 after the rest of us have voted.
Squiggy, we call them “The Blue Angels”, although they are a little too fat for our liking. we prefer them slim.
1. How many war crimes have Australians committed? Please don’t try to tell me none. Now, how many Australians, apart from that cold-blooded murderer Morant, have been tried for their crimes? Dirty little secrets, anyone?
2. Our nation was founded on massacres. The Indigenous population at invasion was around 3 million, a disputed figure, but not an unreasonable one. If that had doubled every fifty years or so, the Indigenous population now would be about 24 million people.
3. The last massacre, the Coniston massacre occurred in 1927, virtually contemporaneous with the Japanese invasion of China.
4. So, in qualitative terms, how different are we really from the Japanese? Have we changed our spots?
Boerwar, i was just starting to enjoy the night.
Wakefield,
Yeah, I know, the Green’s rubbish always gets special dispensation from the sanctimonious and the hyporcritical.
Rocket at 46:
Their last elected one left a year or two back – Sandra Kanck, who got elected in 2002. She resigned and was replaced with David Winderlich, who then quit the party and is now sitting as an independent. The only vague half-chance either him or another Democrat has of being elected is the void left by Nick Xenophon’s 20% last time, otherwise, nope.
By the way, I used to vote Democrat too, but now Green these days. They’re not extremists on the left… that’s Socialist Alternative et al, and I don’t think they’re that keen on having those elements in the party (although it depends from place to place). Far-left infiltration is what killed the NDP in the 80′s (which at the time included who’d become Australia’s first Green senator), so I guess they’d be a bit shy of that. Some things about the Greens annoy me (the more luddite, the more annoyance), but given the current state of Labor (both state and federal varieties) they’re pretty much the only mob left to vote for. I’d like the Democrats to still be around, trouble is – they’re not. I’m not voting Liberal (unless a Moylan / Georgiou type turns up in my seat), and certainly not CDP/FF, so the Greens it is.
Boer War – I have not ever read a source that put the indigenous population as high as 3 million.
I’d be happy to go look at it if you can provide the source, (having an open mind) but most of what I have read shows the number to be between 300K – 900K.
In reliable Coalition fashion Baaaarnaby has been spreading untruths …
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/joyce-told-to-clarify-pay-report-remarks-20100108-lyqt.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/08/2788590.htm?section=justin
And still the boats come.
No wonder Rudd hasn’t sent down the Oceanic Viking to take happy snaps in Antartic waters of the Japanese Catch of the Day, they are too busy dealing with the flood of boatpeople arrivals up north!
Mr Squiggle
A lot of the earlier estimates were based on observations of a population which had been severely depleted by white man diseases before white men ever saw them.
Of course, those making the population estimates assumed they were looking at tribes untouched by civilisation.
There was also a political advantage in underestimating the original numbers – it bore out the belief that the aborigines were a declining race before white settlement and were dying out naturally.
But no, I don’t know the numbers, just that estimates of below a million always sounded a bit unlikely.
Vera,
so pleased you’re back. Have been worried that you have been hanging out at Kmart, wearing a white carnation…and I didn’t get up there, after all!!
Mr S
apparently the Australian Year Book 2008 puts the pre settlement population at between 300,000 to over one million, with a figure at the higher end more likely.
Impossible to really calculate, for some of the reasons referred to in my post above.
Zoomster
Well! I guess I can roll up my sleeping bag. throw away my wilted carnation and head off home now.
I was getting a few funny looks from the people in the camping dept while I’ve been waiting for you.
Quick question…. what was the average life span of the indigineous people BEFORE White Settlement?
I sympathise, Vera…I get funny looks all the time.
Quick answer. Average.
I suppose a RW poster who isn’t a racial supremacist, a childish spoilt rich kid or just plain obnoxious is out of the question? Come back, Glen!
What was the Avg IQ in tully Before you moved there?
Zoomster,
Thanks for the reference, I just checked it (actually I’ve never looked at the year book before), the range is given as you say, although I can’t see any reference to 1mill being more likely.
From my school history lesson, the biggest killer of indigenous population, and by a large margin too, was the diseases brought by first fleet and subsequent settlers.
This one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmbyHmg-aWw&feature=related
If one million and doubling every 50 years, then current Indigenous numbers would be about 8 million.
Happy to accept that the numbers are in dispute and that some of the views above on the topic are reasonable and as likely to be right as my guess.
My main point was that before we Australians cast self-righteous stones at the Japanese, we should think glass houses.
Truthy
Quick question: What was the average life span of a gubber at the time of white settlement of Oz. What is it today? What is the % increase?
Indingenous life span in the late eighteenth century may well have been longer than that of, say, the English who were, in comparison, living in remarkably unhealthy environments, subject to all sorts of infectious diseases, eating unhealthy diets, soaked in gin, wreathed in tobacco and rotting their teeth on sugar. The separation of sewage from drinking water had yet to commence. Rubbish was thrown out onto the streets. Coal smoke did not help. Nor did mass poverty and hideous overcrowding in the slum cities.
Just why all this made them feel as if they had a superior civilization is difficult to imagine.
vera
Posted Friday, January 8, 2010 at 8:45 pm | Permalink
“Has anyone else started getting right wing racist emails telling them a supposedly “amusing ” take on an old fable?
”
Or am I just the lucky one?
Hi , Vera Well j/v posted an old fable “tsory” othr nite about Sumeria , with sub line he hoped it did not ofend God bothers
problam was j/v , an athiest in his haste to post it thinking it was an embasement to God bothers , did not realise logics as logicaly if th “story” was true & God did exist and made everyting then th Sumerians & there environment etc were his “pre test” run before doing th real thingy
and j/v was actualy quite chufed at his brillianse , so lft him unchalenged feeling reely happy i ha that efect , wanting all to be happys
But Am always amused with th superiorty complex peoples so confident in there case they grab anyting aparently suporting not realising th logicals flaws exposing there own argumnt But then CC deniers make th same logics mistake , with own goals
The Japanese are sustainably hunting whales. Thats an undeniable fact.
I really can’t see where the problem is other than whales being cute, whereas cows are ugly and smelly.
Bite your bum!
Ron
I missed most of yesterdays posts. I’ll have to go back to the last thread and have a read.
Truthie
As long as they stick to Minke whales, I agree.
We shoot squillions of kangaroos every year for the meat trade. I can’t see a moral difference – except maybe that whales really are charismatic mega-vertebrates and kangaroos are only charismatic medium-vertebrates… Oh, and we, good Australians, are the ones shooting the kangaroos and them, the bad Japanese, are the ones killing the whales.
More glass houses.
Boerwar
And don’t forgret the camels!
*goes to have disagreement with the sandman*
Boer
I am using a baseline of 250k for the greater sydney basin for a novel im writing.
Tasmania as an example was estimted to have 8-10k natives.
The dutch and indon peoples had a far higher figure for the northern native population, than the british.
I think afigure of 2 million would be about right
Ooops sorry, no offence.
Now please board the cattle truck, you are going for a little trip to a special “cow retreat” of sorts
Truthy
Whales aren’t actually all that cute. They’re quite magnificent. Dolphins are cute.
It’s really only killer whales who are cute and magnificent.
http://www.sams.ac.uk/membership/events-1/events/membership/events-1/jpeg/Killer%20whale.jpg
Truthy
No way is this cow about to board your truckin boat!
HAHA Just saw the news… your usual Rudd Government Spin.
They have given the Japanese Government 6 months to end their whaling activities or face legal action.
Gee, the whaling season finishes in about 1 month, so Rudd’s going to declare legal action exactly when they aren’t whaling and won’t be whaling for another 6 months, just enough time to let the whole issue blow over.
Jesus Christ is it just me getting sick of these “token” policies?
I’d take a Japanese Girl over a Minkie Whale any day.
Truthy
Public displays of heterosexuality can be quite offensive to some people.
I’m sure Troofy is mortified for the offence he has caused you, Peter.
th earlier sugeston a gas fired staton to be built by AGL is not an CC improvemnt on a coal one is siily Of couse had th ETS been passd then AGL already had plans for th bigest Wind farm in th Southern Hemispere , which of couse would hav been a vast CC reucing improvemnt again
diferense between both projects was th business plans commersial risks bewteen Gas & Wind given no cap & trade being passed & so no long term investment certainty re roi , margins , market shares , relativ costs & like So we end up with 2nd best opton , better than th curent very brown Vic coal souse Am sure those that opose th ETS do not understand long investmemt runs & certainty , future business plans & th machinary of a oz wide structral ETS within that
Now returning to the subject of this thread, namely Newspoll taken over the pre and post pagan clebration period, the Greens are up 2 points (Labor down 3.5). Although not yet back to 12%, it seems at this stage Labor’s campaign against the Greens is not biting.
Actually, it’s Morgan, and we all know how unreliable that is to those of your philosophy, Peter.
“Public displays of heterosexuality can be quite offensive to some people.”
if its Gays who ar ofended , then they can get stuffed I’m not modarating my behavour for a fringe minor minority
of couse if its for ladys ,Ii luv ladies and am always on my best behavours , well most of time anyway , as being a gentlemen is quite a chalenge
Ron,
You are a scholar and a gentleman,there is no challenge there.
#117
Yeah Morgan poll. Newspoll was just a typographical error
Seeing as most of Labor’s big guns have been on hols keeping a low profile and Abbott Barnaby and Brown have been flapping their gums all over the place, this poll shows labor doesn’t even have to compete to keep their 58-56/42-44 poll lead
Diog, told you there will be reward. It’s in the mail
Toothy, i got bad news for you. As a “Gaijin” you wont even pass the frontdoor with Mamasan for your Hanyome. No good in keep on saying “Wakarimasen, Mamasan”.
Vera: the MSM and talkback radio are bashing Rudd and propping up Abbott/Liberals, yet the economy is booming, retail sales are up, and the government still has a double digit lead in the polls.
Damn the Australian public, we must be stupid!
Anyone else catch Nine News tonight?
They’ve obviously thrown in their lot with the Liberals!
PY@98 and Boerwar@99
A subject dealt with by Geoffrey Blainey back in 1976. You can tell from the title of his book “Triumph of the Nomads” which side he came down on.
http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Nomads-History-Aboriginal-Australia/dp/0879510846
Worth remembering that many Aboriginal people my age were forbidden from going to school and had their wages confiscated when they did get work. Wonder how well I’d be coping now if I had experienced those conditions.
#126
I read a book published by an anthropologist I think – and I cant remember /her name, I think the book was called “Desert People”…which said that in the 1960′s (early I think) some people came out of the desert who had never had contact with whites before. I wonder what happened to that small group of people.
Evan
The libs have had a free run over the last month but they haven’t closed the gap. Imagine how their lightweights will go when Kev Swanny and Lindsay come back rested and refreshed looking to Kick some butt
PY@127
I remember a group coming out of the desert in the early 70s. Some of these people are still alive and living in communities in Central Australia, Papunya and Docker River, I think.
polyquats – #126
The review of the Blainey book says:
Though infant mortality and incidence of violent death in war and quarrels was higher than in Europe, in the year 1800 it was probably true that the average Aborigine had as good a standard of living as the average European—or better.
I always thought your picture was of a beaver
Poly
Read about George Robinson.
Trugannini’s master
oops
missed [have you]
Who’s Madonna King?
Don’t read her CM article. It is crap.
ABC Local Radio Brisbane Morning Presenter – Hubby happens to be editor of the Curious Snail.
And her real name is Madonna? You are joking !
Both of those facts explain her out pouring of crap on Rudd’s head.
And this Weeks Token Policy Without Actually Achieving Anything Awards go to:
1. Peter Garrett says he will stop people walking up Ayers Rock when only 20% of tourists walk up the Rock, with 38% currently doing so. In other words trying to look like they care about the Aboriginal Owners by giving some abritrary number that will probably never be reached within their lifetimes, while still backing the status quo.
2. Julia Gillard announces that the Japanese must stop whaling within 6 months otherwise she’s gonna put on the angry face and might even take some sort of unknown legal action. The Japanese Whaling season meanwhile ends within a couple of months well before the bullshit “deadline”. This makes it look like Labor cares about Whales by making empty threats, while secretly snuggling up to the Japanese for that all important free trade deal.
Ronster
Straw man again. Gas is an improvement on coal but not by very much.
Vera @102,
*high five*
Personally, I think there is absolutely no reason for humans to kill animals such as whales, dolphins, lions, tigers, rhinos, elephants, great white sharks….or pandas, giraffes….and probably many others. This should be stopped.
There is probably very little that the Australian Government can do to prevail on Japan to stop whaling. After all, from their point of view as the world’s leading high-seas fishing nation, Japan has a lot to lose if they concede to foreign pressure on whaling. No Japanese Government can be seen to give in to foreign powers on this issue, which is a key matter of national economic policy and international law.
But western consumers certainly have it in their power to bring pressure on Japan. If consumers in Australia, NZ, US, Canada, UK, Germany, France…..and others…..were to boycott Japan consumer-product brands, we would see some action by Japan. We do not have to buy Japanese goods. We can buy consumers products made in Korea, China, the US, Europe and elsewhere. The Japanese economy is highly dependent on exports for growth, and any threat to growth will be taken very seriously by the Japanese Government and business.
If the Greens and Greenpeace want to do something that has more than symbolic meaning, they should start a boycott. Consumers are very likely to respond very strongly…..and Japan would find a face-saving way of stopping their slaughter.
Think of the brand names and businesses that a consumer-boycott would encompass…..Sony, Toshiba, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Seiko, Isuzu, NEC, JVC, Pioneer, Akai, Sharp….and many many more household names. A well-focused campaign led by Greenpeace would put pressure on the giants of Japanese business, who all rely on Western consumer demand for their fortunes. If consumers could be encouraged to vote against whaling with their credit cards, whaling would be finished in months.
#127
I found this article regarding a documentary called Contact. It includes footage of a group coming out of the desert in 1964. It includes recent interviews with the survivors.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/aborigines-i-was-terrified-i-didnt-know-anything-about-white-fellas-1803657.html
Details of the documntary Contact are here.
http://www.creativespirits.info/resources/movies/contact.html
There is a short review of the documentary film in the SMH.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/film/film-reviews/contact/2009/09/10/1252519576089.html
The film shared the Australian Documentary award at the 2009 Sydney Film Festival.
http://www.sydneyfilmfestival.org/Festival/Films/FilmDetails.aspx?id=122
For me I think the story of Yuwali being forced to leave her beloved dingo behind in the desert, would be very poignant.
Boerwar@80:
From wikipedia:
Whatever the population was, it was [b]stable[/b].
What assumptions are you making with respect to this sudden doubling every fifty years? The only way that could occur would be if the aboriginal population suddenly adopted western lifestyles including health care, housing and sanitation, access to services and so on.
There were massacres, yes, but that pales into insignificance compared to the impact on the population of diseases brought by white settlers to which the aborigines had no immunity. Whatever the population was pre white contact, it plummeted afterwards.
I have no sources, but it would not surprise me if the aboriginal lifespan was similar to other hunter gatherer societies, which is less than present western societies such as Australia and Japan.
Disease, high infant mortality rates, death from violence (war and intratribal), infanticide and presumably starvation all played a part in keeping the Australian Aboriginal population in steady state for 40,000 years or more.
Mortality rates vary a lot in hunter gatherer populations, but this is an example from John Hawks, a highly respected authority on hunter gatherers amongst other anthropological topics:
http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/life_history/aging_evolution/hill_2007_hiwi_mortality.html
Curse the lack of preview!
William, you promised to update the $@#%^&*() software on this site.
How about it?
Actually the story of Yuwali and her dingo has inspired me to look at the relationship between the dingo and the aborigine.
Was the dingo an “opportunistic” companion (and helpful in hunting) e.g. the aborigine found a dingo pup or snatched it from its mother, reared it, only to lose it later when it returned to the wild e.g. a female in season going off with a wild male, or a male leaving the camp to search for a female, never to return.
Did the aborigine domesticate the dingo to some degree, having their own groups of dingoes which were bred in captivity, and thus generation after generation of dingoes in captivity may have resulted in an animal more attuned to living with humans. If so, what happened to these domesticated dingoes after the white invasion and the breakdown of the aboriginal way of life?
The Dreamtime story of the evolution of the dingo is an interesting one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKyJdAsrj4
The average lifespan of a European in the 18th century was only about 35 years. I can’t find any stats on the indigenous population.
Dio@151:
Pretty hard to determine, I’d imagine. If you can get enough skeletons to look at, you can get an estimate. But that is obviously not an option.
All you can do is look at people with a similar lifestyle elsewhere in the world for whom you do have reasonable accurate determination of age, do enough different samples from all over, and make a best estimate.
Dio – I seem to remember that Bennelong was estimated to be about 24-25 when the First Fleet landed. He was about 60 odd when he died, I think, so he had a pretty strong constitution.
If he was a fit and healthy 24 yr old in 1788 then one could assume that he would have reached quite a good age. Certainly, barring accidents, he could have passed 35.
Thats so BS.
White Fella’s used to live way longer than 35 Years back in the 1700′s.
I’d say the average age was more like 50-60 range.
BH@153:
The trouble is, life expectancy is usually calculated at birth.
If there is significant risk of dying in childhood, this skews the stats – I suspect that the european figure of 35 was including childhood deaths.
Once you reached adulthood in Europe, your estimated time of death would be significantly higher than 35.
That said, I’d be dead now if it wasn’t for modern surgery and the removal of my appendix when it gave trouble as a relatively young man in my thirties.
As an example, a male born now can expect to live to 79. Because I have reached a certain age, I can expect to live to 84, even though life expectancy in Australia has been steadily rising.
Because I have passed through childhood, adolescence and middle age, I have avoided those dangers, which someone born now still has to face. If they get to adulthood, they would no doubt do better than 84, since life expectancy is rising.
Unless something else happens to change things – I’ve read that my generation and those in middle age may possibly live longer than children now because of obesity and lifestyle changes in the meantime.
See:
http://www.dolmanbateman.com.au/online-tools/life-expectancy/
GG said post 11
“For those interested, RN breakfast had a debate on the fltering laws this morning. Must say the opponent of the filter was fairly unintelligible and incoherent. Clive Hamilton cleaned him up fairly comprehensively.”
Well GG I must say that your ability to make a comment based on the apparent merits of the discussion has lifted my opinion of your posts. I do note that there are no byelections around but never the less.
GG
you must be so proud.
Zoomster,
While it very nice of Barking to be nice to me, I’m of the Rudyard Kipling school of thought:
“If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;”
http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm
I notice Astrobleme claims the same comment was proof of “confirmation bias”. Maybe Barking agrees with me regarding the filter and Astrobleme does not.
Truthy
The truth hurts.
From the encyclopedia of death and dying.
http://www.deathreference.com/Ke-Ma/Life-Expectancy.html
Diogs,
Surely, thereason for increased average life span is the massive reduction if infant and early childhood mortality.
Maybe a better analysis is a comparison of the average age of people living beyond ten years of age. I’m sure that people now live longer, but the increase may not be as pronounced.
Dio@160:
Fair enough, but with a sufficiently high childhood death rate, it is conceivable that life expectancy could be 14 years old!
Those figures include childhood deaths. Once you get to adulthood, your chances of reaching 50, 60, or three score and ten, even in developed countries in the mid 1700s, were much improved, which means that some adults survived long enough to reproduce and raise children to independence.
don – isn’t that a dreadful thought. To maintain even moderate lifestyles we can’t afford to have the young ones sliding off the mortal coil off too soon.
With all the gains we’ve made in health it now comes down to whether fast food marketing skills will outweigh everything else.
GG and don
Infant mortality rates in the 18th century were up to 50% in the US and UK, although some estimates I’m seen are more like 30%. Clearly that hugely skews the data.
I read a book about attitudes to death called The Hour of our Death a while ago. It was absolute carnage back then and death really was a part of life, much more than it is now. Things have changed a lot.
The yanks are getting spooky in regard to air travel now. All it would take is some drunken, psychotic idiot to go a bit berserk making threats and a trigger happy USAF pilot and the passengers could find themselves recipients of an air to air missile!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/jets-scramble-over-unruly-flight-passenger-20100109-lzbo.html
I see TODAYS problam of aboriginee disadvantage , caused sigmnificantly by Aboriginees Leeders denial to be part of “australia” and so denial to get on th “econamic, educaton & sosial model” benefits bus ” was just too much reality for th far left here
So instead of addrssing solving today aboroginee disadvant , which geez would involve also critising aboriginee Leeders lack of responsibility & acountability in there foolish “denial” and we just can not hav that petals can we , we revert to no solutons and just talk about th past , like displasment & killings etc th blame game against whites for all curent disadvant problams , which is where red herringly you hav diverted th thread to , to no solutons nor realitys
Youse peoples actualy contribute to th probalm of aboriginee disadvantage !!! , by red herrings so youse can never be part of th soluton Just like CC mitigaton , you ar on th sidelines , irelevent
Gee Ron
Labor and Liberal Governments have been providing so many great solutions so far haven’t they.
There is no solution to be part of. They don’t have a solution.
Fair enough. So what is the solution?
GB
I wish I knew but I certainly know that I am not “actualy contribute to th probalm of aboriginee disadvantage”.
I’ve done a lot for indigenous people with burns and we now have a full-time program to prevent and better treat burns in the indigenous population. We’re improved things a lot in SA but it seems like a drop in the ocean.
It’s only Ron who claims to have the solution and be held back by people like me.
Ron – #166.
Before you can work out where you want to go, you need to know where you are now. In order to know where you are now, you need to understand where you came from.
In addition, it is holiday period and we are taking a small break from providing solutions to the world for all it’s problems. We are just engaging in some holiday “discovery” tours.
Now back to Yuwali and her group of 20 or so people who came out of the desert in 1964.They are described as “women and children”, thus no men. What had happened to the men, the fathers of the children? Obviously they had to wait until some of the male children reached sexual maturity before there could be any new births.
If you go through the Scottish death records of the 1700s to early 1800s what is staggering is the high number of very young deaths and very few deaths at over 50. People dying at 60 were said to have died of old age. The most common causes of death written in the records from just browsing them were consumption (TB) by a mile, then small pox, fever, delirium, measles.
Given the high infant mortality their cant have been been too living to any great age if the average was 35, which I can easily believe.
Now if I were a young peasant woman in 1700s Scotland I would be looking for those old codgers at over 60 to have a family with as if must have had something in their genes for them to survive the carnage around them.
TheTruthHurts #154
TheTruthHurts #154
As usual, you’re the one writing BS. As usual, your racist attitudes and unwillingness to check facts before posting a comment get in the way of your writing anything near defensible truth! Note: All of the following can be checked through credible on-line data bases (try Google)
In fact, male life expectancy didn’t reach 50 until C20 (mid C20). It was about 57 in the (late) 1950s, 67 (& a half, I think) when the QTU launched its statistically-based early retirement for male teachers campaign c1980. In fact, given the absence of killer viral diseases & foods Whities brought with them (esp measles & Syphilis – this is recorded in NSW records ?the Surgeon-general’s, from memory) – alcohol and high grain- & sugar-based carbohydrates – there was little difference in the average UK & Oz c1788 Aboriginal life-spans.</em.
Until smallpox vaccination (introduced late C18 from the Ottoman Empire by Lady Mary Montague, who taught Edward Jenner to use it) about 50% of live-born children failed to survive the first 7 years, although the first real breakthroughs came with Lord Louis Lister’s antiseptic surgery and the sewer-building era which stopped sewage leaching (or being piped into) aquifers, rivers, lakes etc – there was a Seven Wonders of the Industrial World episode on that.
But parasitic diseases (eg typhus – Prince Albert & Anne Frank died of it) typhoid, bacterial diseases (eg tetanus/lockjaw – Reynard Heydrich died of it in 1942), viral diseases (eg influenza, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, scarlet fever, TB) multiple-cause diseases (eg pneumonia) survived as major threats into the second half of C20.
Peri-natal deaths dropped so dramatically after Queensland built the new (1937 – planned from 1929) Bris maternity hospital and similar hospitals & wards with similar procedures were introduced state-wide that Queensland became, statistically, the safest place in the world to give birth. Sulphur drugs & penicillin (both refined during WW II, the former in Germany, the latter inn UK/USA/OZ) were the first to make inroads into widespread killer bacterial diseases. Most vaccinations were introduced just before, during & after WW II, with mass TB & Polio “shots” in the 50s. Vaccines against more common childhood viruses (MMRC-P) weren’t available until a couple of decades later.
Significant drops in heart attack rates & from kidney disease, especially among APC/Bex users (phenacetin side effects; with QLD among the world’s highest rate of phenacetin-related kidney disease) had to wait until the late 1960s & into the 70s. Better dietary information, transplant surgery, better diagnoses & drugs have further extended life-expectancy beyond that on which QTU based its campaigns.
Yep, TTH; when it comes to BS, you are so full of it.
Oops. William, please remove 173, which I must have accidentally posted before correcting the tag for #174.
Please excuse double post!
TP
A lot of those illnesses didn’t occur in pre-settlement Aboriginies. They didn’t have TB, small pox or measles so they might have lived longer on average than the settlers.
On the relationship between Yuwali and her dingo, Yuntupa, this is written:
The only regret is for Yuwali’s dingo, Yuntupa, which was left behind when the girls were driven out of the desert to the Christian mission of Jigalong.
“When we drive away, he followed the truck for 50 kilometres,” Yuwali says. “Nowadays, I am OK with my life, but I still get sad when I think about that dog.”
http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2009/06/03/1243708509231.html
I did a lot of research on average life span back in my Uni days and what stands out with figures for the 18 and 19 centuries is that the determining factor which most influenced longevity was the class structure and more especially the work performed!
There were substantial differences in average life span between say lower working class which was around 38, to the trades class at around 52, to the upper class who often had access to better food, medical care and had much better working conditions, if they worked at all. at around the 62 mark!
The infant and child mortality rates were in turn much higher in the lower working and trades classes than they were for the wealthy also!
The cranking up of the Industrial Revolution had a big effect whereby people were congregated in large numbers in smaller areas close to the factories which assisted in diseases spreading more readily than when people were spread out more under the feudal system.
As well the extensive use of child labour and the deplorable hours and conditions they were forced to work under (coal mines, factories, chimney sweeps) meant that many of them didn’t see much past their 18th birthday. Consequently, they also married young.
Scorpio – #178
What I am trying to get my head around is this idea of “average”. For example, in your example of lower working classes having a life span of 35 cf. trades at 52, one can imagine for every child that dies in the first 12 months, there must be one adult living to 70. So I can see that child mortality rates would have a big impact on the “average”.
Hi Guys
I didn’t connect some dots for which sorry.
The reason I raised the issue of our treatment of Indigenous people is that I don’t think that we can throw stones at Japanese treatment of the Chinese without shattering some glass houses.
Clearly, Indigenous population has not doubled every fifty years, which might have been a reasonable expectation in post-contact Australia. Instead, after two centuries, the Indigenous population has yet to reach what it was 200 years ago. In terms of proportionate scale of impact, our efforts have been far more effective than were those of the Japanese in relation to the Chinese.
It is true that many Indigenous people have died of diseases. It is also true that many of them were more prone to diseases because they were driven off their country, deprived of their hunting and gathering grounds, and herded into what were, effectively, concentration camps were they were fed flour, water and tea. Deadly stuff. That is not such very ancient history either. There were astronomical death rates at places like Papunya where still-nomadic people were concentrated out of the desert from about the middle of the last century.
And, of course, many were massacred. How many, we will never know because after a few were hung for their troubles, the perps took care to hide the evidence. How many massacres are enough to make some sort of point or other I will leave to the earnest endeavours of people such as Windschuttle. The basic point is that there were enough massacres to ensure that a violent dispossession was the basic reality.
The reason I raised the issue of life expectancy is that today’s folk tend to think of the invaders as being essentially something like ourselves. I hope they were not. Let’s hope we really have changed our spots.
BW
The Australian Govt website says there were 315,000 indigenous people at settlement. There are 517,000 indigenous people now but obviously all the ones at settlement were pure-blood and most now would be half, quarter etc so it’s hard to compare.
Dio
1. Why on earth would we trust the Australian Government on stats relating to Indigenous people?
2. I don’t accept the ‘pure’ blood, half, quarter argument. I am OK to go with:
. must have Aboriginal ancestry
. must identify with Aboriginal community.
On a lighter note, van Onselen has written a very entertaining piece on ‘Abbott’s Crusade to Woo Women Voters’ (sic). It contains the following gem:
‘It is ironic that Abbott, who has a strong wife and is the father of three daughters, should be forced to establish that he doesn’t have a problem with women (which he doesn’t by the way.’
So, some of Abbott’s best friends are women! What a hoot! I would rate some of the rest of the article as the most tortured thinking ever offered up by Van O.
For example, it turns out Bishop was selected to add the woman’s touch to Tony Abbott. Problem is, according to Van O, that Bishop is such a klutz that Tony Abbott is going to have to teach Bishop a thing or two about how to help him with the ladies.
Apparently she was a dud under Nelson and Turnbull because, according to Van O, she ‘was too similar to the leader.’
Then Van O closes his circular argument with, ‘Abbott will need a deputy who value-adds, as Bishop finally might. This is especially the case given the difficulties Abbott may have with women voters.’
BW
According to wiki, the 315K figure is the low end of the estimates.
[The population of Indigenous Australians at the time of permanent European settlement has been estimated at between 318,000 and 750,000].
And in terms of the blood argument, I wasn’t saying a quarter blood is any less aboriginal than a full blood. I was using the biological method of determining whether the quotient of “aboriginalness” has been increasing or decreasing.
Diogenes
#169
I wish I knew but I certainly know that I am not “actualy contribute to th probalm of aboriginee disadvantage”.
so you admit you do not hav a soluton , but then hav audasity to critisise someone who puts a pathway to soluton , which you hav not th courage to rebut
it takes 2 to tango to get a reel soluton , and th “denial” by Aboriginee leeders greatly contributes to no reel soluton (by there denial to get on th bus of ‘Australia’ & th model) So they ar part of th problam as well
this forses Govts to either chalenge aboriginee leeders lack of accountability responsibility and to tell them to stiop playing anti white histary old blame games in consert with th Far Left ….which no Govt will obvously do , or
So instead Govts left with “no partner to tango with” so they continue to do th best they can with a reluctant Leedership partner , via welfare and band aid type support etc (that do not greatly fix th reel problam) but instead causes th sosial disadvant consequenses
couse it takes 2 to tanfo , and past govts ar not blameless either ,but thats not th point , aboriginee leeders hav dismaly failed aboriginee peoples and keep burning to thems anti white , and they ar owed a livin for 200 years ago
One does not need histary lessons , and we’ll leave aside how factual some may be as its irelevent to todays disadvant problam One can simply see th disadvant by going and seeing it , its undeniables
Guess what ? none of th aboriginee leeders or aboriginees were aliv 200 years ago , so aboriginal leeders born today hav rsponsible to leed/fix todays problams, not just use past as an excuse , as youse far left also luv to do
Youse seem quite comfortable on your sofa s , making feel good posts & playing blame games about whites in th past But you contribute zero for disadvant aboriginees , yet unbeleivably keep posting past histary whilst admiting you hav no soluton !
Youse may be worse than th “right” , they do not seem to be compassionate but do try to do some (poor) solutons , youse camoflage th needed shared responsibility , 2 to tango away
Dio
I don’t understand what you are saying about ‘aboriginalness’.
I wonder why the Australian Government has picked the low end and not, say, the middle, or even the top end?
Ron
I suspect a lot of indigenous people would be secretly laughing at your views, and thinking you are stark raving mad.
Ron
I will agree with your post in one sense. One of the critical issues for Indigenous people is the sheer lack of consistency between governments (federal/state, changeovers between state and federal governments). Just when one policy approach is more or less bedded down the next lot come in and change everything again. This results in a miasma of programs, rules, regulations and expectations.
To this extent both left and right, as broadly defined as you like, have been significant contributors to Australia’s biggest FAIL.
Boerwar
my #185 said “and past govts ar not blameless either” So that includes i felt inconsistansy among & between Govts & also some poor polisys , so i did and do agree with your point there fully
But my #185 was about th aboriginees leeders failures which greatly contribute to aboriginee disadvant via th 2 denials i said None on th far left want to face this reality , yet wonder why th problam of yesteryear is still a problam well we cann’t hav one sided blame when pone partner wont danse th song every othr peoples in world ar dansing to to get out of disadvant
re othr nutter poster , as for aborignees tinking my views ar mad , well that makes Noel peason mad you 1/2 wit For your knowledge when lookin at TV , th black fellas ar th aboriginees
As to ordinary aboriginees most admit th elder peer pressure which feeds into th displaseement bit and then feeds th blame bit , but they do yearn for “oportunity” , which of couse leeds to th bus i mentioned
Ron, you make it sound as if everything has been hunky dory since a little under 200 years ago. Like one big wipe-out, everyone on your feet and carry on as if nothing happened.
Aboriginal people did not get the vote until after the referendum in 1967. Children were still being stolen in the 70s. In Queensland, wages were still being ‘confiscated’ into the 70s. When I worked in payroll in Dept of Aboriginal Affairs in the 70s, all Aboriginal people were paid ‘trainee’ wages.
My MiL and her partner (Afghan) had to live out bush until after 1967 because of the laws on inter-racial marriage. Consequently, their children had little opportunity to go to school, and this made it difficult for them to encourage good school habits in their children (now in their 30s).
As much of our health outcomes are determined by how well nourished we are in utero, I reckon if we make a good start now, we might turn around health outcomes for Aboriginal people in another two generations.
The past is still with us, very much still with us. It isn’t a matter of using excuses, it is a matter of overcoming very real disadvantage.
Ron
If you want people to hop on your “opportunity bus”, the first thing you have to do is convince them the bus is gunna go some where, and the place it is taking them is a ‘better” place.
Yep, Noel Pearson is mad – typical lawyer really. Aboriginal people have another name for the likes of Pearson, I won’t use it here.
The real problem is not any given policy, but the fact that most policies are never properly implemented. Just given enough funding to allow them to fail.
Megalonis does a very interesting analysis of the use and abuse of media by prime ministers:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/rudd-rides-the-digital-age-to-dominance/story-e6frg7ex-1225817307102
Maybe Chomsky was right after all.
I’ve already outlined the solution.
One of the new features of modern Indigenous politics is that the leadership is publicly fractured.
So, it is likely that any argument is likely to be wrong that is based on the notion that there is a single, monolithic Indigenous leadership which supports an identical set of policies.
IMHO, the fracturing at least partly reflects the vast differences in interests and priorities between urban middle class Indigenous people and remote, poverty-stricken Indigenous people.
This fracturing has implications both for Indigenous people and for Australian politics.
The relationship between Pearson and the previous Government is an example of the opportunities and challenges both Labor and Liberal face when engaging Indgenous leaders.
One implication is that neither major party is ever likely again to be able to ‘own’ Indigenous issues completely.
Cut Welfare benefits to all Aboriginal communities for anyone not willing to work.
Create jobs in the communities, even if “artificial jobs” and make those on welfare work. Those who won’t work, cut off their benefits.
This will give the people something to do every day, rather than simply drinking booze.
Another good idea would be a “trades training” shed in every one of these communities. Same deal as the dole for work, this would be dole for skills. They could have basic skills from hairdressing for the women and things like computer skills, mechanic work and building skills for the men.
Why only Aboriginal communities?
It was called CDEP. It’s been axed (by Howie, part of the intervention)
Most Aboriginal communities are dry. Aboriginal population has a higher proportion of teetotallers.
They used to have such a scheme. This is how it worked:
Aboriginal person employed as trainee fencer. Sent to Batchelor to learn to be a real fencer, and comes back to community as a fully qualified fencer. Given job as trainee mechanic. And so it went on.
All your great new ideas, Truthie, all been tried before.
Truthie
1. I applaud your call for improvements in training facilities for Indigenous people. Governments could start by ensuring that all remote Indigenous children have access to basic high school education. We are on the same page on this one. Let’s hope that governments across the nation finally get basic education funding right. Then there will also be a more general opportunity for Indigenous students to learn trades. Let’s hope too, that governments finally figure out ways of getting mature and highly skilled teachers out into Indigenous communities, rather than the wet-behind-the-ears first year teachers who as often as not, leave after their first year or two.
I note, unhappily, that you think that a ‘shed’ would be suitable for Indigenous training purposes. Literally, been there, done that. ‘Sheds’ as training institutions do not cut the mustard. You would, of course, really be thinking of the best investment possible for those who most need it, wouldn’t you?
2. I am unaware of welfare benefits to Aboriginal communities.
3. Would you apply your suggestion of forced labor (or else) to non-Aboriginal people, or is it something about Aboriginal people specifically that gives rise to your desire for forced labour?
4. You appear to be unaware that drinking is a huge problem for non-Indigenous people in, for example, the Northern Territory. Would an increased awareness of this problem lead you to generate some suggestions for targetted welfare bastardry on this section of the population? Or is that, somehow or other, only Indigenous drinking gets your management juices flowing?
Why the sexist division of training, Truthy?
Haven’t you ever heard of male hairdressers and female mechanics?
Sheesh. Way to undermind your own argument with 1950s thinking…
*undermine*
I’m so cross it affected my typing
chinda63
You obviously need to get re-educated in the training shed.
Because they are the ones with the problems.
Please try and keep up.
Bullshit.
Neither Party has cut welfare to enforce such a policy. This needs to be backed up by a big stick, not the usual “if ya want, ya can do it, otherwise just drink your days away on your centrelink cheque”
Christ some of these communities have less than 1000 people.
What do you want, a multi-story Tafe with a swimming pool out the back? Be realistic.
An airconditioned shed would be more then suffecient for basic skills training.
Yep, you’re full of it alright.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You couldn’t keep up if you had a rocket up your b*m.
Troothy – if only life was as black and white as you paint it everything would be rosy, would it?
Ah, the immaturity of youth. I partly remember the days!!
The same leftwing, bleeding heart, inner city latte sipping rot we have been hearing for decades.
It is not forced labour, they don’t have to work if they don’t want to. It’s just if they do, they get their welfare benefits cut off.
You give a little and you get a lot in this world. People who expect something for nothing have nothing to live for. The left clearly want to continue on the welfare state in outback towns because as usual they have their heads up their arses are too busy to come out of their nice inner city apartments to see how the real world works out here.
Oops should read if they don’t
All these stories on the Xinhua web site makes it clear that China has no qualms about accepting CC is real and a threat.
Strange then they haven’t pushed harder for something at Copenhagen.
[Glaciers melt around world due to global warming
Glacier thawing speeds up in Yangtze River sources
Scientists: Antarctic ice shelf collapsing as result of climate change
Climate change increases glacial burst danger in Nepal
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/27/content_11954336.htm
May you never know the stress of being poor and without a job, Troothy.
If ever you find yourself in that situation you may see reason to thank a few bleeding hearts for trying to get better deals for those less fortunate.
Thought I’d give you a go today and actually read them. I feel a bit sorry that I did now.
So now I’m off for awhile to cook some nice salmon and hop into a glass of vino – I feel the need after reading your comments.
polysquats
so you tink Pearson is mad , you ar foolish What you dont like is his views contradict yours
what is signifant is you failed to menton ANY othr alternativ aboriginee leeder you thought was not mad and provide a DETAILED poilisy of his views
suport th nutter Michael Mansell ?
as to my referense to 200 years ago , thats because aboriginee leeders always prefase or base there ‘blame whites’ argument STARTING with displasement in 1788 , so dont be disengenuous
In in sumary what predictably has ocured is th Far Left here hav gone in circles blaming th past and blaming white Govts as sweeping statemnts
th Far Left here ar simply comfortable to repeat th shaby blame game against curent whites regarding th past which leads nowhere , certainly not to reel solutons
then th Far Left ar happy not to ofer reel solutons , except somehow its th white Govt is still to blame and is solely responsible them to fix , and NOT th aboriginees themselves having ANY respoinsibility themselves , for example not having there kids go to school is not reely there fault , oh no its because of past white racism
Youse agree with Aboriginee leeders denying being part of “australia” and denyng geting on th “econamic educaton & sosial model” benefits bus othrs disadvant in th World adopt
For reasons said abov , youse continue to contribute to th very disadvant you post care for , but lack reality to address solutons , just blame gamers helping none least disadvant aboriginees
Aboriginal people in fact had the vote at Commonwealth level from 1962, and certain individuals had it in certain circumstances going back to federation. The 1967 referendum gave the Commonwealth the power to make laws specifically in relation to Aboriginal people, and included them in the census – and hence in determination of such matters as the number of House of Representatives seats a state was entitled to.
#197 – Truthy
You suggest the solution is to make people work.
Now what do we do with those who choose to do the type of work you offer? DO we allow free access to land with the right to go wherever they want and take whatever they find?
Yeah right, Truthie. Both Boerwar and I have put in the hard yards ‘sipping latte’ in places you couldn’t even imagine, in conditions you have no idea about, and all the while putting up with the sort of racism you’ve been dribbling over the site all afternoon.
When you’ve walked a mile in our shoes, come back and talk to us. In the meantime stfu.
Thomas @210, only two things you need to know about China. They are technocrats and they will do precisely what is in their own interest. Doesn’t surprise me that they acknowledge GW. Doesn’t surprise me that they moved to wreck Copenhagen.
They are only going to pay attention when enough of the western nations have a unified policy on imposing carbon tariffs on Chinese imports.
Stimulus. This is the problem of not doing enough or soon enough.
It makes it look like you have wasted it. The US will need a second stimulus package, the Dems will be to scared of it, the media will be dramatising it with fear and thus it wont pass the Senate….and thus the US will be staggering along for much longer.
Different to the 30s. Back then the Repubs like everyone wanted the economy to recover. Now days the Repubs will be happy if the economy keeps sinking.
Given Krugman’s last analysis and the limping US economy I suspect Rudd will be happy he still has the remaining phases of the stimulus program. If things do take a backward step he will seem like a genius with the remaining in stimulus to call on.
The SMH did however predict a share market increase of 19% for this year.
Ron
Only two examples you can come up with are Pearson and Mansell? No wonder you have no faith in Aboriginal leadership.
There are many hard working, intelligent, determined, caring people leading the Aboriginal community today. Way to many to name. In every community. Some are nationally known, some are quiet achievers.
They are up against it though, trying to lead through the mire created by Truthie’s blantant racism and your myopic sentiment.
cud chewer
I made the point in a number of posts in the past that the Chinese position is madness. They are set to suffer much more than western nations if GW isn’t controlled. And that entails weakening of the govt, lessening of economic and military power – all the things they would hate.
The Titanic has struck a berg and the Chinese won’t have enough life rafts.
It is their own self interest that should have them out their ramping up the pressure to do things.
cud chewer…
Do you have a sense whether this idea is getting any increased traction post-Copenhagen?
And you forgot idiots like Geoff Clarke who was head of ATSIC at one stage as well.
As for the best leaders I would include the Dodson Brothers, Lowitja O’Donoghue and Peter Yu of the Kimberley Lands Council.
Unfortunately it’s the noisy radical element which gives indiginious affairs a bad name, and they’re usually aided and abetted by St Bob and his crew
How many of you people who are suggesting your great solutions to outback towns have actually ever been out that way?
Have you guys actually lived out here in the real Australia? Sitting in inner Sydney dictating what should be done in outback towns is bloody stupid, you have no understanding of outback life and are applying your inner city values to outback towns.
The reality is there used to be quite a good industry in outback Queensland of Aboriginal stockmen working with white cattle farmers. The unions and communists of the 1960′s soon put an end to that.
I would have a bad feeling about this year, except the recent rains will mean a good boost to agri exports.
Think I will stick with cash just a little while longer.
That’s what I was trying to tell you Truthie, we have. I spend 14 years in Alice Springs and the surrounding area. Including time spent on homeland communities, where I was often the only white person, in housing euphemistically called ‘stage one transitional’ housing, with no power, not much running water and medical help a long drive away. I’ve shopped in places where there were no fresh fruit and vegetables, and sugar and tea were priced like caviar. Tully is a burgeoning, well resourced metropolis by comparison. I was last there in October last year. I still have family (daughter, stepsons, etc) living in the area.
You really have no idea.
No, the pastoralists put an end to that. Weren’t prepared to pay proper wages. Australia’s pastoral industry was built on the back of unpaid and underpaid Aboriginal labour.
The working life of a stockman, btw, is very short. Injury usually sees them unable to work after only a few years. It was one of the health problems facing Aboriginal people that successive governments wouldn’t even acknowledge, let alone redress.
These people were happy, healthy, making a living and off the booze.
How many Aboriginals are working as stockman in outback Queensland these days? It was another case of putting some stupid feel good policies in place, while destroying real life results.
Back then quite possibly, it was a hard life and medical care for rural people was hard to come by, and electricity, running water and sewage were decades away.
Thomas, in order for China to get the most self-interested bang for buck in getting other nations to lower their emissions, it primarily has to deal with India and the US. (And to a lesser extent, the EU, Brazil, Mexico and a few others) I can easily see how they are working their way towards a few bi-lateral treaties to worm their way out of future carbon tariffs.
Oh and, no I don’t see that issue coming up much – but I’m willing to bet its going to get a mention when Parliament gets back.
In the mean time China does best doing precisely what its doing, gearing up to be a world leader in supplying alternative energy systems. Strange world eh?
Around 65% of the Australian population live in the capital cities. Have ever had a real latte TTH?
Btw, I’ve said this before so I’ll mention it again. I think all the attention on politics tends to distract people from the game-changing nature of new technology. It may happen that the CPRS for instance becomes redundant before it really takes effect.
Yes I had a nice Latte on the beach in Redcliffe in Brisbane… they even asked me if i wanted it in a glass or a cup. Crazy southerners, who drinks coffee out of a glass?
Wrong on just about all counts, Hurt by the Truth.
Who are you to say when someone is happy? Would you be happy working for flour, sugar and tea? Forced to separate from your family just to survive? Healthy? I think we’ve established that wasn’t true – introduced disease, poor diet, dangerous work. Making a living? You’re joking, aren’t you? Making a living means getting paid, generally enough to provide the basics of life. You’re not making a living if you have to beg for sheet of iron to make a shelter.
Agin, Truthie, you have no idea. You are full of sh!t.
I’ve been trying to figure out where I had heard TTH before, then it struck me, his views are exactly the same as those of the late great Eddie Clontz, alias Ed Anger, of the Weekly World News, whose style earned him an obituary in The Economist, which noted that “Anger hated foreigners, yoga, whales, speed limits and pineapple on pizza; he liked flogging, electrocutions and beer.”
TTH’s posts are the work of a great satirist, but s/he is helped greatly by all the others here who treat them as if they were serious, thereby adding hugely to the joke.
Hang in there, all of you!
And how many Aborigines are working as stockman today?
A similar thing happened in Zimbabwe. Told the white farmers how brutal they were, kicked them off their farms and basically sacked the workforce, now they’ve got huge unemployment, inflation in the thousands of percent and are hugely in debt.
The reality on the ground… not the feel good policies… say that if you can get well trained individuals to do the same work for the same price, why the hell would you hire low skilled labour?
The unions and communist groups killed the Aboriginal stockman industry in Queensland. They can talk all the bleeding heart feel good BS they like, but at the end of the day it was them that put thousands of Aboriginal stockmen out of work.
Thanks TTH @ 233, another delightful parody, especially the reference to communists. (Have you though about trying to to work in “atheistic communism”? Billy McMahon was big on that, the memory of him would give you lots of laughs from your admiring audience.)
*head desk*
You’re right Pedant. I originally responded to Ron, not sure how I got sucked into an war of words with the local idjit.
*Exits to walk dog (who is vastly more intelligent and better company the Truthie).
Polyquats @ 235 – TTH’s parody of the right is so biting, it’s clear that s/he’s actually further to the left than any of you here.
This is interesting, Rudd’s essays getting quoted in academic papers.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24969578/Jape64-Keen
Pedant, have you met many Nth Queenslanders?
*really going to walk dog now.
This weekend’s OO has been giving me lots of laughs.
It sternly lectures ‘climate change activists’ to take the ‘long term view’. *Thinks, whooee! Why, exactly, does the writer think that climate change activists are sh*tting themselves?’*
Just who or what, I wondered, is a ‘climate change activist’? Well, we get a clue from the following:
‘Suddenly the verities, nay dogma, sprouted by some researchers in the relatively young area of climate change science sit rather oddly with the images of a region locked under sheets of ice.’*Thinks, writer might have checked a couple of things, including the latest UAH global temperatures and the Arctic Sea Ice extent for today. Both are pretty well saying, warmest ever.* *Thinks, what is this turkey insinuating with the phrase ‘relatively young science of climate change’.* *Thinks what is this crap about ‘some’ researchers?’*
Ah ha, so ‘climate change activists’ take a short term view and are right into ‘nay dogma’. *thinks to self, just when did an English language poet last used ‘nay’*
It turns out, according to the writer, that Environment Minister has not learned a lesson, you know, the one about conflating weather and climate. *Thinks, has the turkey writing this gobblediegook noticed the long term global temperature trends?*
The turkey thunders on: ‘Rather than proving the case for climate change action, the high temperatures, set to be experienced in several states, are a reminder that there is no substitute in this debate for good research and a commitment to developing sound scientific data.’ *Thinks, true, true. The IPCC reports do just that. And what, exactly, are the turkey’s views on the IPCC Reports?*
Turns out, the writer does not have a view on that. Or not one that he is willing to put into the article, anyway.
A disgraceful opinion piece by a writer who lack sufficient moral courage to come out of the Denialist closet.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/now-is-no-time-for-a-snow-job/story-e6frg71x-1225817474772
Polyquats @ 238 – I lived next door to a North Queenslander for much of my life. That’s what helps me to appreciate the genius of TTH’s satire – s/he does them so well.
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“TheTruthHurts
Posted Saturday, January 9, 2010 at 7:07 pm | Permalink
Around 65% of the Australian population live in the capital cities. Have ever had a real latte TTH?
Yes I had a nice Latte on the beach in Redcliffe in Brisbane… they even asked me if i wanted it in a glass or a cup. Crazy southerners, who drinks coffee out of a glass?”
You know the sadest thing about Queensland, you don’t get peas in your pies any more. The place has gone to the dogs.
They have internet connections now; there is a real risk TTH is a live one; satire or not; it is classic North Queensland for sure.
But they do get piss in their beer.
You can still get them up here.
I much prefer the potato top pies to be honest though.
Q: Why do Qld’ers call their Beer XXXX ?
a: Because they cannot spell Beer
TTH @ 244 – Stay in character, don’t spoil the joke.
Don’t confuse the actor with role.
I have noted the same demographic behaviour in the USA. the closer to the tropic’s the nuttier they get. In Washington state the Americans are actually quite sane.
My light hearted theory is; cooking the human brain causes problems.
Perhaps it’s the weather; in North Queensland the worst you have to suffer is a night on the beach in the southern states a night out could cause death.
TTH
I really liked the peas in the pies. I can still remember being amazed when the store owner asked me if I wanted peas added. It hasn’t happened on recent trips.
TTH, you are talking a lot of uninformed nonsense. I have heard most of it before. It wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now. It’s nothing but a play on the ignorance of people who have never lived anywhere else than in a city or urban centre.
There was probably never more than a couple of hundred Aboriginal stockmen working on properties in Queensland at the peak. They were outnumbered manifold by white stockmen and they most only worked in the gulf region.
Sure some of them lost their “unpaid” jobs when they were brought under the Pastoral Industry Award but many of their white counterparts lost their “low paid” jobs as well.
The introduction of motorbikes and helicopters into mustering as well as cattle being shipped by road trains and by rail, led to the end of droving cattle to markets and railheads.
Up until the late sixties much of the grazing industry in Queensland was “sheep” not cattle and no Aboriginals or at best, very few were “ever” employed in that industry.
Most of the handling of cattle (and sheep) ie mustering, branding, drenching, ear tagging, castrating and cutting out of stock for market is done by “contractors and has been for a long time.
And in regard to the short working life of stockmen. A school mate of mine had both hips replaced by age 45 and has been unable to work since and still needs other joints replaced. My next door neighbour started as a teenager and was physically worn out by age 35 with most of his joints shot including his spine.
fredn,
As a Queenslander myself please dont equate Troothy as our mascot. Rather Kevin Rudd & Swanny!
You can get a decent pie’n pea here in Brisbane! I know!!
Truthie
I think I’ve actually met you many a time in the pubs at the Katherine of old, beer belly gut against the bar, unwashed, unshaven, half-pissed, full of whining self-pity, and whinging about how lucky Aborigines were.
BTW, I was actually in the Territory at the time when the unions and the communists were successful. But just what were they successful in? Pollbludgers might be interested in that. It was actually gaining equal wages for Aboriginal stockmen a century and a half after the invasion started. (Plenty of evidence from whitefellas that the cattle industry was built on the backs of Aboriginal men and women, so they must have been doing something good.) Also, despite all the stuff in this blog about voting rights dates, they were successful in actually making it possibly, physically, for Aborigines to actually vote. Not easy, actually, when all that wonderful education from the whitefellas after a century and half leaves you with the busted knees and bandy legs of a life time on a stockhorse, and, of course, the capacity to sign your name with an ‘x’.
But equal wages – it is the sort of dreadful stuff that would get any righteous whitefella the heebiejeebies. Imagine that: equal pay! Of course I talked with many of the Aboriginal stockmen at the same time. The matter of pay came up, from time to time. I suppose they might have been lying to me. Why they would do this, I don’t know. But a bag of boiled lollies (or was it jelly beans? – time is getting to me a little here) for a two month droving stint seemed to me to be a little on the light side, wages-wise. As for the welts on one guy’s back – well, he ran away from the stock camp as a teenager. So they horsewhipped him. He could have been lying as well, I suppose, only the welts really did look like whip scars. Still, you probably understand this a whole lot better than we soft old lefties.
I talked to many station managers at the time as well. They were quite open about why they were running Aborigines off their stations as fast as they could. It wasn’t the wages. It was because they were mortally afraid of land rights. They knew stuff. They knew where the graves were. They knew where the massacre sites were. One of them even proudly showed me his special repeater, the one with all the notches in the stock.
Ah yes, a lot of those people back in the seventies really did know a lot of things that they have since taken with them to their graves.
Aussieguru01
North Queensland and Brisbane are very different places. In North Queensland you would find a TTH sitting on pretty much every bar stool and driving every second taxi.
I’ve had a north Queenslander seriously suggest that shooting the aborigines is the solution to the problem and complaining that the southeners won’t let them.
It is getting better; TTH as an example is being exposed to alternate views, the internet does that.
Boerwar @ 252 – So he does live shows as well? So much the better, some competition for Sir Les!
Brisbane is only half way up Australia; there is a long way to go before you get to see you last north Queenslander.
Thursday Island, in fact!
Aussieguru, me too. I did say Nth Queenslanders.
Boerwar, there is a Truthie running a pub on the track between Alice and Tennant, which shall remain nameless, but is well known for its ‘bank’. Insisted that he had to give me permission to by a beer for a friend. He told me they have a rule that they don’t serve anyone alcohol unless the local station owners tell them the guys worked that day.
The person I was buying a beer for was 80 years old and nearly blind.
oh, and that was last October, not some dim distant past.
pedant
Sir Les would never, ever, have called folks such as myself ‘n*gger lovers’ and threatened to bash me up for the awful crime of it.
With such competition, Sir Les was a scholar and a gentleman by comparision.
If you are willing to work for nothing, HTT, I have work for you and all your family too.
polyquats
methinks me knows the very spot and, indeed, the very gentleman. A proud Australian in the Truth Hurts mould. Reminds me of a story. Just the truth, for Truthies’ sake, I suppose.
It was the early seventies and we were taking a mob of Aboriginal kids down south to show them ‘our’ country – mostly primary aged kids but with the odd lower secondary school-aged kid chucked in for good measure.
We left the Alice, heading south. It was stinking, stinking hot and the air conditioner broke down. The bus was a commercial operation and about half the passengers were whitefellas of various stripes. The atmosphere was good. We stopped at a certain Roadhouse south of the Alice. Everyone piled out of the bus and into the air-conditioned roadhouse. It was forty or thereabouts outside – that hot, dry, desert heat. We all bought stuff, pies, soft drinks and the like. When the last kid had made his purchase, the manager sidled up to me.
‘Are you in charge of these kids?’ he asked.
‘Yes,’ I said, ‘Why?’
‘Because I want you to get them out of the RoadHouse’, he said.
‘Why?’ I asked, in a slightly raised tone of voice.
Manager, looking around, says, ‘Because they are in the way of these two blokes playing eight ball.’
So I walked up to the two blokes playing eight ball and, in a voice loud enough for everybody in the Roadhouse to hear, asked them,’The Manager wants me to take all the kids into the stinking heat out there because he reckons they are in your way. Are they in your way?’
Well, they said, ‘No, the kids aren’t in the way.’
So I turned to the RoadHouse Manager and said to him, ‘Well, that is all right then, isn’t it.’ The gutless racist, and they are gutless, many of them, in my experience, crawled back under his rock.
I should say that on a month’s trip down south we were showered with money and kindness and food and clothes and trips here and there and free board for the kids. They were very, very poor, had no homes (shared doorless, window-less, dirt-floor tin sheds when it rained), had one set of clothes – sort of. They were all cast offs. There was no running water, no toilets and no electricity where they lived. In fact, come to think of it, where we lived. The awful truth of the matter was that they did not even have latte coffee.
But anyway, the down south people were so damned good to them it was overwhelming, everywhere we went. It was inspiring stuff.
There was only just that one racist prick.
Christ there seems to be a lot of racism towards north queenslanders in here.
What I find interesting is that those with such great idea’s on how things should be run in the outback and in rural places, but they live in the cities and have no f’ing idea on life outside their own little world. They occassionally see life out here on the Tellie, so they send out their directions on what should be done from the comfort of their inner city homes but have no idea, absolutely none, on things that are happening outside the city boundary’s.
I’ve actually got an uncle who used to work as a teacher on Palm Island. They enjoyed working there despite a few issues as it is a beautiful island. Unfortunately for them they were born white you see and this was a problem, because the “people in charge” decided, despite them working there successfully for many years and helping Indigineous education, that this just wasn’t on. No white fella’s to be working in a black fella community you see, so he was sacked and told to leave.
This is the feel good “affirmative action” in practice. And what has happened to Palm Island? Has it turned into the glorious Aboriginal community paradise invisioned?
No it’s turned into a complete hell hole. No doubt someone down in Brisbane thought it would be a bloody great idea, yet they couldn’t give a toss what the effects would be… it just felt like a good thing to do at the time.
Bloody hell, Boerwar, that’s powerful stuff.
Truthie
Quite right. I decry racism, including against North Queenslanders.
I’ve met quite a few of them in my time and most (but naturally not all) of them were the sort of people I liked. For example, up at Millaa Millaa we had some land. The neighbours one farm over, I liked a lot. He had been an engineer in a destroyer in the Battle of Jutland. He heard stuff but did not see a thing in the whole battle and did not know what happened until they got back into port. I can still remember him explaining to me the principles of that great little engine, the Cinva Ram.
He was a great guy and and his wife was most hospitable.
BTW, your uncle notwithstanding, Palm was and is a hellhole because that’s what concentration camps tend to become. And, as Indigenous people have often found to their cost, it is generally easier for whitefellas to stuff things up than for Indigenous people to fix up the messes.
Are north queenslanders a distinct racial group?
Boerwar,
There is always one. We could swap stories like that all night and it would wash right over Truthie’s head. He probably stick his fingers in his ear and go ‘lalalalalalal’.
He has a story about his uncle, and affirmative action. Shall we start on the successful affirmative action stories, or will we let him wallow?
polyquats
Yeh. I don’t actually get the feeling that he is listening to us very hard. I do have a go in hope, but I must admit that I have yet to make much headway after a lifetime of this sort of stuff.
But, truth to tell, the reverse is probably also at least more than a little bit true. It is hard to keep listening with an open mind to what you figure is likely to be utter crap.
HTT, I am tempted to ask, wtf are you doing to help your local aboriginal community? Have you offered to help them? Do you know them? Have you done anything more than open your mouth and spout some well-worn slogans? Until you’ve actually made some effort in that direction, considering you live among aborigines, why would anyone take you seriously?
I just don’t believe you, HTT. You are a fraud.
Just keep reminding yourselves, TTH is a SATIRIST.
Boer/poly
My dear da was in darwin in the 60′s
We had ,ahem,aboriginal domestics,and ma got in trouble cause she paid them over what was due.
The domestics etc had a camp “outta town”
Thats what troothy wants.
Institutionalised Rascism.
To suggest that a form of racism exists amongst only the rednecks, I think underestimates the extent of even unconscious racist thinking, even amongst the educated elites. This true story I think illustrates it.
An indigenous man was appointed a judge. In his first 2 years on the bench he was allocated to city courts, although he longed to do circuit work (that is sit in courts in the far flung country towns, many of which have substantial numbers of aboriginal residents). The Chief Judge is responsible for the allocation of court rosters.
At the Judges Xmas party, the judges wife (a strong willed aboriginal woman) approached the Chief Judge:
W: Why don’t you send my husband to XYZ towns on circuit. You know, he would really love to work there.
CJ: Well I am really concerned about putting too much pressure on him, having to sentence his fellow aborigines.
W: Obviously you never sleep at night, worrying about all the strain the white judges are under, having to sentence white fellahs day in and day out.
After that the judge was regularly posted to the remote country towns.
BTW – this happened in the the 21st century – not the 19th century.
Yes, he has a real talent for self-parody.
pedant
Hmmm.
Do you have to have a consciousness of the self to be a satirist? Or is it possible to be a satirist without even knowing it? Wouldn’t the latter be straying into unselfconscious irony?
Being without humour, I confess I have difficulty with these concepts.
briefly,
I don’t either!
You should ask your uncle to tell you the “true” story the next time you see him TTH!
Peter Young
Good point. I have met quite a few of them since I came down south.
They are rather better at dissembling than the unwashed lot and, generally having more power, are rather more damaging because of it.
Briefly@268, Truthie is going to solve all the problems faced by the Aboriginal Community. He is going to re-run all the failed policies of the last 30 years and this time they will work because he says so.
So let’s just give him a break. Get the popcorn, sit back, watch and learn!
No wonder Troothy doesn’t like Palm Islanders. They tend to vote Labor!
2006 State Election:
Labor 80.60%
Liberal 11.20%
Greens 6.69%
Fishing Party/Ind 1.51%
Gusface
How great it is to have a bad Mum.
277…..polyquats, he is all clatter and no train…..
Boerwar @ 274 – One of the things that stamps TTH as a satirist is that s/he actually spends time posting here: the real rednecks either ring talkback, or post on Andrew Bolt’s blog. (And there’s also the fact that TTH knows how to spell “latte”, even though s/he tries to project redneck characteristics by using apostrophes to indicate plurals.)
What utter rubbish!
It turned into a shithole right around the time it was given full Aboriginal ownership. The state government and a handful of lefties thought it would be a great idea offloading it to some corrupt Aboriginal group to run. Ever since that date, it has sealed the fate of Palm Island. It is actually against the law to run a private business on Palm Island due to these law changes.
99% unemployment is what we have ended up with, not to mention poverty and a severe lack of housing.
If it’s a “concentration camp” it’s of the Aboriginal Lobby groups making as it’s no longer State owned land. Perhaps you should think before typing next time.
I’d love to see the figures for 2997! I would hazard a guess that Labor would have been over 60% Primary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Island,_Queensland
Damn! 2007!
Truthie and his uncle, I’ll be stuffed, he is from FNQ.
Picking up the thread from someone worth debating, and more in keeping with the theme of this blog:
Frank said:
As I remember it, the Democrats did a lot to split Aboriginal leadership in the ’80s. And no, at this stage, I won’t name names.
But I will say that I was a founding member of the first ALP Rural Branch (euphemism for Aboriginal Branch) in Alice Springs. The branch always met in Alice Springs, even though it was trying to attract members from surrounding areas (Utopia, Ti Tree etc). At the time, a person had to make 3 meetings a year to maintain membership. I argued that we should rotate meetings around the communities, given that it was easier for the Alice Springs based members to get to meetings at communities than it was for people on the communities to make meetings in town. In any case, the right rotation of meetings would mean that everyone could meet the membership conditions easily.
But I was told by our MLA (Brian Ede) that it didn’t matter, because the real reason for the ‘rural’ branches was to ensure Left representation at conference. I left the ALP. Didn’t join gain until I went back to uni. Left again because of stupid membership rules.
It’s a concentration camp because people got sent there from the communities they belonged too because of arbitrary decisions of community ‘management’.
http://results.aec.gov.au/13745/Website/HousePollingPlaceFirstPrefs-13745-5685.htm
You can do better than Palm Island though:
http://results.aec.gov.au/13745/Website/HousePollingPlaceFirstPrefs-13745-34161.htm
Palm Island got off to a good start! Putting vastly different groups of people together in a small place is sure to engender togetherness and harmony!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Island,_Queensland
#278
I can find a better booth than Palm Island – namely Toomelah in NSW.
State (seat of Barwon) in 2007 -
Labor – 57 (92%)
Nationals- 4 (6.5%)
Green – 1 (1.5%)
Others(3 other candidates) 0
In 2003 in the same booth:
Labor -91 (99%)
One Nation- 1 (1%)
Nationals – 0
Others (3 others) – 0
Toomelah see:=
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/toomelah-lesson/2008/06/20/1213770924233.html
TTh, I think you are “very” wrong about control over Palm Island also.
So it wasn’t until 2004 that a “real” semblance of proper control was handed to the Palm Island people over their affairs and they were given far less than other mainland councils were!
I wasn’t far off, was I. Thanks, William!
http://results.aec.gov.au/13745/Website/HousePollingPlaceFirstPrefs-13745-5685.htm
Warren Snowdon seems to have the vote pretty well sewed up at Tommyhawk Swamp, doesn’t he!
LOL!
Stop talking about the past lets talk about the future.
It is illegal for Private Enterprise to be on the island without the Aboriginal councils say so. This has led to 99% unemployment, lack of housing and poverty.
The reality is no one down in Brisbane gives a toss including people such as yourself. You’d rather sit around feeling sorry for them without actually doing anything to fix the problem. The State government needs to retake control of the Island. Heck run a referrendum there on the issue, you’d probably find they’d vote for it.
Truthie, until you acknowledge the past, there is no future to discuss
Peter Young,
I bet the Federal Council of the ALP held an investigation into the savage drop in the 1st preference vote at Barwon in 2007!
Truthie
Well, I sometimes try to think before I write, but, with your urging, I will try a bit harder.
1. I know that enlightened folk such as yourself will find it difficult to believe, but Palm was established as a concentration camp and maintained as such for many decades. Aboriginal survivors from much of Queensland were rounded up and forced onto Palm Island against their will.
2. There was no industry on Palm when they were forced to go there. Jobs were not the rationale. The rationale was to get them off their own land so that the invaders had unimpeded use of it.
3. Thereafter permission for Indigenous people to get onto or off Palm Island was given by a whitefella. He could do what he liked. He did not have to give a reason. He was accountable to no-one for his decision. I think there may have been a period when Aboriginal people also had to get permission to marry, but this may be wrong.
4. Wages were sequestered, millions of dollars from Palm Islanders and other Queensland Indigenous people were only returned after several monstrous court cases and several decades. In many cases the stolen wages were never returned to the wage earners because they had died in the interim.
5. With the remnants of tribes jammed cheek by jowl into inadequate housing, without much real prospect of work, dispossessed of their land, dispossessed or separated from their loved ones, some of whom were murdered, ‘dispersed’ or dead of some new disease, utterly powerless, demeaned in front of each other by the permission regulations, non-citizens in their own land, Palm became a hellish place to live. Not surprising really that they often turned on each other, that they sought the amnesiac solace of drugs and liquor and that, in their powerlessness, they turned terrible violence, one upon another. I am not saying that any of this behaviour is right. Or that it should be tolerated. There should always be accountability in any society.
What I am saying is that the inhabitants of Palm Island will have to learn accountability from within themselves, because the historic examples of ‘accountability’ for the barbaric way whitefellas treated them is largely completely lacking.
6. The police pleased themselves and policed themselves. ‘Nuff said about the justice system, really.
7. I was once shown a photo of a Palm Island football team. The photo was of young men of about twenty. The photo was about ten years old. I forget the exact proportion but something like one in five of the men were dead. A hellhole.
8. I admire Palm Islanders tremendously because they have survived some of the worst barbarities inflicted by whitefellas on Indigenous people. They are struggling against the personal and social damage that decades of bastardy inflicted on them.
Palm Islanders did not ask for what they got. Any small success is wonderful, should be acknowledged and should be applauded. It will be a long, extremely tough and winding road for them. But having seen the many successes of Indigenous people against almost impossible odds, I have faith that they will get there.
TTH,
Careful what you wish for Troothy! Your current Member, Peter Lindsay has a slightly different view and would like to shift the lot over your way in Townsville!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Island,_Queensland
TTH
Read the wikipedia article linked to above, you might learn something.
Rather than wind back Aboriginal “land rights” and better the lives of thousands of people, the left would rather stick to ideological and feel good BS rather than actual results on the ground. So be it.
Palm Island will never improve under administration by the Aboriginal council. This is obvious to anyone who has taken the rose coloured glasses off.
It’s simply easier for the State Government to allow the situation to continue under the failed experiment, rather than take control and do something about it… and from what i’m reading here, a lot of people support them in doing that. Disgraceful.
Ah, just when you think you’ve lost the noise. Never mind. Time for Tagget.
What a lot of rot!
Councils “everywhere” decide whether approval is given to businesses to establish and Palm Island is no different in this regard and land title issues are a bit more complicated due to the issue of Aboriginal Land Rights to the population there!
That has “nothing” to do with the unemployment and housing issues which have more to do with neglect by successive governments especially the Nationals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Island,_Queensland
And don’t forget the Retro Rage allnighter – this is especially relevant to a fellow bludger who is now part of the Midoz family
so here endeth the lesson?
There may be only one or two boothes in Australia with 100% for Labor. I think one was the Wreck Bay community on the south coast of New South Wales.
Now back to an earlier debate re racism against Indians, I am keeping an open mind on this one, but the latest report from an attack on an Indian in Melbourne is worrying.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/09/2788802.htm
Let’s hope so!
Boerwar,
I actually know someone who was an Officer & navigator on a coastal steamer which transported Aboriginal people from Sarins, Mackay, Seaforth, Whitsunday Island, Hook Island, the Airlie Beach/Cannonvale/Conway area, Proserpine, Bowen and Hinchinbrook Island to Palm Island.
He is well into his 90′s and remembers it well, still!
When I lived at Proserpine, there was only one Aboriginal person living there and she was born on Palm Island although her family were originally from Proserpine! In pretty well all the places mentioned here, there are few if any Aboriginals and those that are have returned there from Palm Island.
Those centres do have sizeable populations of Thursday and Pacific Islander people!
You are correct about needing permission to marry and leave the Island!
10 yr old “I hate macbeth”
me:” you dont know macbeth”
10 yr old: “did it for a project”
balloon deflated
polyquats and Boerwar
Thank you for your excellent posts.
If anyone wants to read a good book about Palm Island there is one called Tall Man by Chloe Hooper, about Palm Island and the Doomadgee case in particular.
The treatment of the Aboriginies was appalling. Truthy has NFI.
TTH,
That is just dead “wRONg”! The State Government is doing a lot to improve the conditions on Palm Island and it is far better than it was. See the Wiki Article!
What “is” disgraceful is making an accusation like you have here. You haven’t read anyone’s comments on this issue, have you?
Truthie never reads anyone else’s comments. He just ploughs on regardless.
I would just like to add one comment re inner city latte sippers knowing nothing about “real” aboriginal issues because they haven’t lived in remote communities.
I don’t know the figures, but I am sure someone could find them. My gut feeling is that there are a lot of indigenous people living in inner city of Sydney e.g. Redfern, Waterloo, Woolloomooloo, and certainly more than in the outer suburbs and many country towns.
PY
Jaws 2 won
;(
scorpio
It always amazed me when I met someone who was real but who was part of something that now seems somehow unreal. I knew a guy who threw spears at the invaders in the Victoria River District. Unusually, he lived to tell the tale and was an ancient when I knew him.
I lived next door to a guy who had survived the Coniston massacre. I met a guy who was a patrol officer and whose job it had been to round people up and put them into Papunya.
How ordinary such people looked on the outside and what extraordinary, seemingly unreal events they had experienced.
In terms of your story, the ethnic cleansing was so thorough that I understand that in parts of Queensland the locals now say, and believe,
‘There were never any Aborigines here.’
Absolute rubbish.
I’m running my own business and I didn’t have to ask the council for say so. Simply registered a business name through the Queensland government, and done and dusted.
Running a business on Palm Island requires the permission of the failed Aboriginal council that runs the joint and has led to a 99% unemployment rate.
It’s hilarious listening to southerners saying what a great job the Aboriginal council is doing… they are killing their own bloody people through poverty for christ sakes! Couldn’t care less though once again, it’s all about politics for you blokes, not conditions on the ground.
Dio
Thanks for the suggestion on the book.
For those interested, the following site provides plenty of well-substantiated info.
http://www.anu.edu.au/caepr/
Thanks Diog.
Can I recommend (very partisan post, sorry):
An Uncontrollable Child by Reggie Sultan (my BiL) http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/pub_uncontrollable.shtm
Growing Up Kaytetye by Tommy Kngwarraye Thompson. (the person I bought a beer for at Barrow Creek Pub, and Grandfather to my daughters, stockman, Aboriginal elder, and one of nature’s gentleman.) http://shopping.iad.edu.au/store/viewItem.shop?idProduct=45
and The Versatile Man by Don Ross (my MiL’s brother) http://shopping.iad.edu.au/store/viewItem.shop?idProduct=85
and, also Muntua Gallery, where my daughter works http://www.mbantua.com.au/
Hurt by the Truth,
as someone who now works in a regulatory capacity for the Qld govt, can I say that is absolute bullshit. You can’t do jack sh!t without the Qld govt leaning over your shoulder. On Palm Island or in Cairns/Townsville/Tully.
Have you ever heard the saying – When in a hole, stop digging.
Truthie
I am with you on this. It makes perfect sense. State governments ethnically cleansed Queensland, set up Palm Island as a conccentration camp, and ran it for decades as a sort of open-air prison. They crowded people where there was no work, ensuring dependence and poverty. They packed people into substandard houses. They filched their wages. If Palm Islanders turned uppity the police knew what to do and knew that no state government would hold them accountable. No state government ever has. Those state governments destroyed hope. In doing all this, they destroyed people as surely as if they had done it with guns.
I admire your good thinking. You have identified just the sort of organisation to run Palm again. It has got the runs on the board.
And you can’t do anything in Palm Island without the Aboriginal Councils say so.
This has caused lack of investment on the island and a 99% unemployment rate.
I’m sorry but no matter how you spin it the Palm Island Aboriginal Council has failed it’s people.
Sorry Truthie, WE have failed the people of Palm Island. Truth is, we never expected them to survive, let alone succeed. Guess that means we failed double.
I would like to devote these 2 songs to Truthy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8CRYOnMaXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHN4g_8lvq0
Try starting from scratch like you would at Palm Island. You did read the Wiki article I take it?
Even the likes of Woolworths, Coles and Bunnings have to through all the planning and approval stages when they are starting from scratch in “any” local government area.
I bet you didn’t as the building would have already had approval as a business zone or if you operate from home, I bet you did have to get approval!
Sorry, I must have missed that! You wouldn’t mind reminding me of those instances, would you Troothy?
Or is that another thing you have made up?
Good night all. Thanks for some great posts.
Hey another “racist” attack down there in multicultural utopia and leftwing heartland of Melbourne.
Gee, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Wouldn’t happen up here in Townsville.
Truthy
This song is my last for you for the night. Listen to it, think about the words. Not just for yourself, but from the “other side”.
Goodnight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkP-p68_MGk
If sensible PBers wish to skip nonsense, they may wish to skip th last 9 hours of posts after Gary’s #168 at 2 pm Saturday afternoon
After that apart (from Scorp & Gus) we had all these Far Left posts (Greens prob) patheticaly blaming th PAST ( those whites) for aboriginees CURENT disadvant , but without ofering any CURENT practicol solutons for CURENT aboriginee disadvant !
They were sayin th same thing 20 yeasrs ago without solutons , and indeed 10 years ago without solutons , and no doubts will still be saying th same thing in 10 years time nd still without practicol solutons !
I wonder whether they care more for arrogantly knocking Australia , whites and Labor/Lib as they luv to whinge and snip , than they do about caring about aboriginees advant
These zealotry Greens and th whaco Michael Mansel types actualy contribute to curent aboriginee disadvant by blame games red herrings & boringly repeating 1788 , which camoflages th CURENT responsibility of aboriginees leeders/Elders/people to declare a priority polisy wish (& design plans) for aboriginees to be a normative employee or business owner , with prior educaton and take on sosial models as “part of Australia” , to get off welfare & improve living & health etc standards
Govts can not forse this responsibility , it needs to come from th aboriginee comunity , and this is one of th criticol links missing
othr efect of th zealotry Greens anti white blame games is to create divisive & resentment in general comunity being acused for th past overwhich they were innocents , and to inflame th “right” , again nonproductive
Without this missing link , we hav had since 1972 numerous Govts clearly having
a desire to fix aboriginee disadvant , and i’d guess over 20 billion has been put into aboriginee disadvant so its no for want of tryin
Actualy we hav even had Aboriginee run Authoiritys like ASTIC with billions to spend , they th aboriginee Authoritys DID spent it Little progress Then we’ve had advisort comittees with only Aboriginees on it Little progress We even had Chalie Perkins aboriginee th Secretary of th whole aboriginee Dept Little progress
So we hav had both whites and aboriginees in Authritity trying to help disadvant , little progress To suggest as Far Left do , Govts hav done nothing is cheap blame playing
Obvous some remote aboriginee settlements ar in wrong place geograph , and whilst remaining there guarantees contine disadvant as there is no job or industry there , and little “sevices” Same principal applies to many white small towns as well Hard decisons need to be made on both groups
Aboriginee leeders & elders need to take responsibility to educate there adults that educaton & full attendense to year 12 is a cultural & econamic aboriginee necesity Pref if posible in strongly multi culural schools so all kids whatever background feel comfortable , and not pref one ethnic only schools black or white , not always posible but i guess min 60% aboriginees liv close to major cities
Naturaly seeing aboriginees ar not one single organizaton one needs to get to coal face , to those localy who influense there peers like Elders , so a big job , but so what
Ditto Aboriginee leeders & elders , re wishing to and actualy getting a job , and th basic sosial standards all societys need to liv by
And Govt hav obvous roles in all with aboriginee leeders and elders etc , but th ‘ball’ has to be taken
There can be no soluton to aboriginee disadvant unless most ar full educated , and then unless they also mostly hav jobs or there own businees Th alternitiv is th curent ie welfare dependent , no reel future out of disadvant , and all th disadvan econamic & health & sosial consequenses it causes
its one possible pathway out of disadvant i feel , however am sick of th whingers blaming th past , almost with delight knocking ALL Aussies of th past in such sweeping shaby ways , but when asked what would you do TODAY to fix disadvant then th Far left and Greens here hav no answers Why would they , they’d hav nothing to whinge about
As prev i said , Govts ar NOT blameless at all eithers both in some polisys and th duplicaton/contradictory of State/Fed polisys and regulatons , blah bla and irresponsibilites But we all know that already i’m addrssing th othr side of th equaton , th subject most dare not speak for fear of being called racist Well i not fear th Far Left or Greens and nor th Far right , sitting on there sofarses
Surely “its time” , to go past th past , to today , to fix today and th future
Ron – #330
I wanna devote this song to you.
I’m delirious
Are you serious?
What goes on in your head?
I’m just curious
Cos’ I’m hanging here
Got me dangling here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRL4HiJ87tY&feature=channel
Ron, seems like you took your own advice and skipped the posts. You certainly missed the Boewar’s post on education. I must have missed a couple myself, because I don’t remember the one that was
Don’t recall much discussion on Greens policy, or any support for Mansen.
Aboriginal leaders have the answers. They are written out in all those funding applications that both sides of politics ignore or underfund.
well, off you go then. We’ll have Truthie out in his tinny turning back the leaky boats, and Ron running around the desert turning the tide of disadvantage.
Ron, you seem to be the one with the fixation on the past. Most of the discussion last night was about the present.
Ron, You’ve missed the best contributions of all. Did you skip over them? Boewar’s posts are exceptionally interesting reading.
Just heard on Their ABC News Radio that certain security expert in the UK is warning the potential of terrorist attacks during the Comm Games at New Delhi coming soon.
In the light of the recent attacks on the Indians in Australia and the anti Australia sentiment in India, plus the attacked on the TOGO Team in the Angola African Football Cup, I can’t really see how the Australia Team will be able to go to New Delhi.
I am convinced I am spending too much time here,
I have come to this realisation because of the actions of K. over the last few days.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter124u/4253291998/
K. throughout her life has mostly been in the room when I have used the computer. She either is asleep or playing with toys – and I have never noticed her pay much attention to what I am doing. However, over the last week, practically everytime I have left the room, even for a few minutes, I have returned to find her perched on my chair pawing at the keyboard.
Now, I appreciate it is unwise to anthropomorphise dogs, but I think K. must think there is something “good” about being here, otherwise why would I spend so much time here – and she wants a part of the action.
PY,
Not only would your dog offer more interesting and informative posts than you, there are pot plants and many other inanimate objects that could do the trick as well.
Peter, I don’t know what you’re on but I think I want some. It certainly takes one away from reality.
Ron
Boerwar has provided many possible solutions on many occasions.
You just weren’t listening.
Thanks Poly & Boerwr – enjoyed the information you shared. Plus others who linked pieces on the subject.
The polling for 2007 was interesting and the comparison with 2010 will be fascinating in light of Labor carrying on most of the intervention.
Was Peter Lindsay (Herbert) one whose seat may be marginal now. Must check out Possum’s stats on that.
Now in researching the question of the nature of the relationship between aborigines and the dingo, I came across this article: ABORIGINAL DOGMATICS: CANINES IN THEORY, MYTH AND DOGMA
http://www.kitlv-journals.nl/index.php/btlv/article/viewFile/2160/2921
which I suspect challenges Ron’s “opportunity bus” and Truthy’s dogma, and suggests a rational, but non-economic determinants for human behaviour.
In short, the aborigines may have befriended the dingo, not because it was useful as a hunting tool (economic benefit) but because it made them “feel good”.
Boer
the Coniston massacre is one of the things which made me political.
My grandfather was responsible for agitating for the Royal Commission. He was a minister in Katherine at the time, and one of the policemen involved in the massacre came to fine him, with the threat of imprisonment if he didn’t pay up – my grandfather had committed the heinous crime of removing two aboriginal girls from an empty waterhole and driving them to a full one, in the process taking them out of their designated protected area without receiving prior permission.
My grandfather wanted to not pay the fine and go to jail, as a way of highlighting the idiocy of a law that wanted him to fill out three forms in triplicate and wait for a letter of approval before saving people’s lives, but whilst talking to the policeman he realised that the man was taking the aboriginal men captured during the Coniston raids to trial in Darwin, so instead he paid the fine and caught the same train.
Once in Darwin, he went to all the media outlets personally, telling them to attend the trial. They hadn’t intended to; the arrest of a couple of aboriginal men for murder wasn’t that newsworthy. At the trial, however, the policeman was so proud of his part in the massacre that he basically spilled the beans, despite attempts by the magistrate to stop him.
This led to the Royal Commission. The report is like something out of Monty Python, with typical eyewitness accounts going something like this: “We were approaching a group of fifty aborigines. We could see them waving spears, and some of these were thrown at the leading police officer, who was obviously in trouble. Just then, I heard a noise in the bushes and went to investigate. When I returned, all the aborigines were dead.”
Basically only one man admitted firing any bullets, claiming (from memory) to have shot half a dozen aborigines. The men’s own evidence admitted that at least thirty had died. Given that noone shot the other twenty plus, one can only assume they threw themselves on the bullets to get the white men in trouble.
Despite this, the Commission concluded that all of the witnesses were telling the truth and praised them for their honesty!!
I studied the massacre for my Honours thesis, delivered to the likes of Prof Blainey and other Australian history stalwarts, none of whom showed any awareness of the events and mainly were interested in where my information came from.
BTW, on the Palm Island debate: you only make people responsible by giving them responsibility. Most aboriginal communities haven’t had that, and as a result they lack the expertise in basic governance they need – basic bookkeeping skills, for example. Give them responsibility, let them make the mistakes they need to learn, accept that some of these will be biggies, but give them the respect of believing that, like all human beings, they will learn and strive to improve.
Well said Ron.
When pointing out the absolute complete corruption and disarray of the current Palm Island administration, they come back with stories of white guilt and outback stories from 30 years ago.
These guys really are stuck in the past. The truth is they’d rather see 100% of Aborigines on welfare than see any progress in Aboriginal communities, because that would mean actually changing things from the status quo and taking some of their much sacred “Aboriginal rights” including not allowing people to start their own f’ing private Aboriginal businesses away.
I’m a really big believer of democracy and free speech, so lets cut the affirmitive action BS and get some votes going in these communities on who they think should be running the joint. The “administrators” may get a nasty surprise, but of course the left wing will try and block this sort of progress as they always do.
I see Truthy has found a soul-mate in Ron.
They can fight the brave fight against the latte-sipping, elitist, intellectual, urban, far left Greens together.
Diog, perhaps we should just let them shadow box together to their hearts content.
Ron’s interminable diatribes about not bringing up past wRONgs done to the aboriginies seems to be at odds with Rudd’s most memorable and acknowledged act on aboriginal affairs which was the “Sorry” to the stolen generations.
Zoomster,
There’s pretty good coverage in Wiki! Was one of these your grandfather?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coniston_massacre
#341- zoomster
That is universal policespeak.
They must teach that in “Evidence – 101″ at all the police academys.
Oh great… another “business as usual” supporter.
They have failed for christ sakes! Stop letting their people suffer, it’s time to DO SOMETHING!
zoomster
Interesting stuff. Whenever folk get stuck into the missionaries for the damage they did – and they did do damage, I recall that they also in many cases acted as advocates and provided safe-haven settlements for Indigenous remnants. It is not black and white.
zoomster
Incidentally, I believe that the descendants of both sides of the Coniston massacre meet for reconciliation purposes and get along very well. Not sure of the details.
Diogenes.
I’ll have a cappucino thanks. I have some socialist freinds flying up from Sydney & Melbourne to get me on the “hard stuff” … chardonay.
Apparently its how you sip it that boggles the brain to come up with government policy. Especially on Aboriginal policy.
I cant wait!
Why should I be sorry? For being born white??
Lots of bad things happened in the past, people need to get over it and think towards the future not dwell on the past all the time.
He made Wiki?
Fame at last.
Truthy
I am curious. Just when did the past finish in relation to the way in which you understand current affairs and the way in which you frame policies and programs?
Yesterday? This morning?
I dont mind tory bloggers.
Those who remember the days of ’07, ’08 when we had the likes ESJ blogging here would atleast appreciate his insightful, correct and well thought out postings. NOT.
(Did he ever get that job writting a column for the OO?) BULLSHIT!
Hang on. Theese torys are same old peas from the same old pod. C’mon Troothy please notch it up a gear. We heard this all before!
Truthy
In the words of a great writer
And in the words of RATM
You’d think the “stolen generation” was the worst thing to happen since the Holocaust.
FFS, lots of bad things happened in the past… many much worse than the stolen generations which was actually a policy made to IMPROVE the lifes of half-caste Aboriginal children. How many of those from the “stolen generation” are living in squalid camps today?
We don’t take Aboriginal kids from the parents these days, we just let them sit in poverty stricken, alcoholic binge drinking, violent communities and put the blinkers on. No one gives a shit about them.
Zoomster,
It looks like someone else did a Thesis on the Coniston Massacre also. Have you read it?
Will the left say SORRY for not doing anything about children living in violent aboriginal camps?
Will the left say SORRY for children dying due to malnutrition due to parental neglect?
Will the left say SORRY for children who are beaten and raped, but can’t be taken away for fear of being called racist?
I wouldn’t bloody think so. All the “stolen generation” has created is a culture of secrecy in a lot of these Aboriginal camps because the government can no longer take children out of danger, and the left just don’t give a shit. They will continue to dwell on the past and couldn’t care less on the effects this will have on children of the future.
Should be bloody ashamed of yourselves.
Scorps
Yes, as part of the research for mine.
He decided to use the words ‘lubra’ and ‘buck’ throughout, on the basis that these were the words in current use at the time.
Effectively, this dehumanised the whole thing – couldn’t get as worked up at the deaths of ten bucks as ten men.
He was also used by a number of organisations I contacted as an excuse not to send me information – ‘the definitive paper’ had already been written, why did I need to write another?
I had the advantage that the RC findings had only just be released, having being confidential for 50 years.
Thanks to zoomster, Boerwar, scorpio and polyquats for your posts. Your close-ups of our history is invaluable.
I think the left, the right, the middle and the perpendicular to the man should apologise profusely or accepting a completely shithouse education system that results in some of the vacuous crap floating around in this thread.
#362 – Possum
I think that has put a dampener on discussions
362 – Well said Poss.
For the good of this blog – “Parliament, PLEASE come back soon!”
@362, er, so what did you expect from humans?…
And here I was thinking how good some of the comments were on the first two posts on this web site! Maybe a review is in order!
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/
What is the view here on referrendums being held in these Aboriginal communities for control to be given back to the government?
No doubt you guys are against it…. more important pushing your pro-White Guilt agenda rather than actually improving the lives of these people, even the ones that want government control.
Suck it up Poss (362) – the interwebs iz non-discriminatory.
truthie
How about an answer to my question?
Your question is not of importance, mine is as it affects the future of these people.
Boer, Truthie never answers questions. Perhaps because that might require some thought.
polyquats
Yes, I was just testing that very proposition. Result: zero, test successful.
Do you think Possum was thinking about yourself and myself? I am concerned that I may have ventured rather early into a vacuous old age.
#331
Damn, that Boyzone tune is some catchy shit.
If you ask a non-silly question perhaps I could answer it.
Boewar, it is indeed a sad indictment of our education system if he was. Either that or his expectations are exceedingly high. Maybe he was just bored with the topic.
Cheer up, everyone. Election year!!!!!!
I notice that the wonderful and enigmatic Daniel Johnston is touring Australia for the first time ever. He’s going to every capital city except Adelaide.
There is a brilliant doco about him, Devil? and Daniel Johnston, and his battle with bipolar disorder which is pretty harrowing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crJlogkdjB8
Christian Kerr has added his quota to the Weekend OO japes. ‘Leaders with no instinct for numbers.’
In some ways it is an interesting article. After all, Abbott’s dumping of a market based solution for CO2 emissions is probably the biggest single backward flip in Coalition economic policy in the past couple of decades.
Similarly, Rudd’s wariness about the market as solution is also important in understanding where economic policy is likely to go.
But, but… Kerr uses phrases such as: ‘…Ergas suspects..’ *grins hugely*
Naturally Kerr exhumes the crusty old Walsh. Of course no-one in government on either side ever did anything right since Walsh left.
Oh, then there is mystery commentator: ‘One close observer of Santamaria and his legacy, who prefers to remain anonymous,…’.
I admire Kerr for his capacity to add the spice of humour to the dismal science of examing the entrails of Rudd and Abbott to determine their approach to economic issues.
Well, that will rule out many of the PBs here
Finns
Are they accepting applications from dolphiins. I understand that they have the right equipment and they always grin.
BW, the Application is in the sea mail. It will take sometime.
What in hells name was Poss’s hit and run all about?
Someone spiked his moonshine?
Three reasons, HTT: you should be sorry for being an idiot, a fraud and a bigot.
briefly
you forgot
“and a disgrace to the human race”
yes Gusface…..that and an embarrassment to the good people of Tully.
Gus, the dolphin race also second that
Don’t engage with him/her!
Its like not laughing at racist jokes, not laughing at sexist jokes, its actually quite important not to allow any encouragement.
Gusface @382, I suspect the clues are in the first sentences to 362 and 359.
It seems the world over, no matter where you go, politicians act in accordance with the same textbook.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6982279.ece
Finns –
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2010/2786255.htm
Still only second best, though.
PY,
can’t access that link, but would comment that the textbook pollies operate from is that of being human beings.
That is, they have much the same faults and virtues as the rest of us, it’s just that their failings get more publicity.
Glad to know that your life is pure as the driven snow.
Sorry, PY, worked this time.
Political advertising – ah yes, one of those areas where Rudd has taken action.
Zoomster #390,
It’s a good thing that they didn’t measure the relative brain size of some ‘contributors’ to this thread.
It may have skewed the sample and bumped several species of moss up the intelligence charts.
I’ve found it an interesting thread
TTH is coming up with the normal north Queensland rubbish, been there done that, heard it all before, but zoomster, Boerwar, scorpio and polyquats recounting personal experience has been fascinating to read.
Pity TTH doesn’t have a little bit of respect for humanity in it’s many forms.
Using the encephalisation quotient (brain:body mass) as a measure of intelligence is highly suspect, esp for very large animals.
Is a blue whale half as smart as a warthog?
Posted Sunday, January 10, 2010 at 11:44 am | Permalink
“Ron’s interminable diatribes about not bringing up past wRONgs done to the aboriginies seems to be at odds with Rudd’s most memorable and acknowledged act on aboriginal affairs which was the “Sorry” to the stolen generations.”
Green Hacks , Diogenes PY and pollysquater youse morons
you obvously did not undrstand th purpose of th Apology It was to acknowledge th past from th PM of this Country to aboriginees and say ‘sorry’ , AND to MOVE ON to solve th CURENT aboriginee disadvant
What you Far Left rabbitoos want to do is pretend Rudd made no appology and stay in th past , still blame gaming whites , well Rudds appologuy has left you behind
my posts over days and over 12 months ago suggested a cultural committment “package” for aboriginees to adopt with Govt including educaton Boerwar and others AFTER me ar talking of educaton as a ridiculous stand alone scenario that has proven failure over 30 years
you dont handle reality of geograph locatons problams of aboriginee comunities and indeed small white towns AND th cultural wire fense aboriginees ar on between keeping there “historical traditons & culktural ways of living” vs th ONLY enconamicly educaton and sosial “model” that will deliver them from welfare based disadvant
its th same model used thtrouhout th World for disadvant people to hav th “oportunity” to climb out of disadvant
youse ar happy for aboriginees to hav th purity of totaly holding on to there traditonal & cultural living styles thoughts , resulting in disadvant ie on welfare dependense Instead of leeders themselves initiatin and joining a “package” out of disadvant
Alot of aboriginee leeders do not wish your bleak disadvant future , and th more that ar fully educated and get jobs and accept a sosial package as well whilst retaiinin basioc heritage thoughts , they will not either
GG@336:
Pure GOLD!
Onya, GG!
An interview with the dolphin researcher was on air this week. She based her suggestion that “dolphins be given the status of ‘non-human persons’” partly on brain size, but also on brain function. She said the pre-frontal cortex in dolphins – where functioning relating to social interaction and feelings is concentrated – was highly active. She claimed the activity in dolphins exceeded that same activity observed in the great apes. She was not asked how she had managed to measure brain activity in dolphins.
I wondered at the time whether – if her observations are correct – it is possible that dolphins have a sense of ‘self’. Should dolphins be expected to have ideas of ‘dolphin-ness’, of being safe or unsafe, well or not well, alive or not alive? These are analogies for consciousness? Are dolphins conscious in the same way that humans are? Do apes have consciousness? If so, what if anything is remarkable about humans?
If consciousness is a matter of degree – something that is more or less available in different species, depending on the evolutionary path they have taken – then human consciousness is only one permutation of many possible forms of consciousness, and it is highly likely that the universe contains other life-forms with more sophisticated consciousness than we are endowed with.
This is a satisfying thought for me, since human consciousness is so manifestly inadequate for the demands placed upon it.
On one of the podcasts I listened to last week, there was a discussion of experiments that had shown that dolphins are can recognise themselves in a mirror, and will use the mirror to check out things – like tags the researchers place on them. If I can find which podcast it was, I’ll post a link.
I was having a read of Abbott’s latest blog effort on the DT web site and clicked on his link to have a look.
http://www.tonyabbott.com.au/default.aspx
What a surprise to find on there a link in the shape of a bomb titled “Labor’s Budget Bombshell”!
I clicked on to discover that it was a whole website devoted to Malcolm Turnbull’s Budget reply speech in 2009 with a couple of extra links to Joe Hockey’s “Matter of Public Importance” speech!
Apparently Tony needs to use material from his predecessor to give his policy position and web site a decent level of substance.
http://www.liberal.org.au/Budget2009/
I think he should give up his blog too. Either he only attracts the RWDB’s or all contrary views are edited out!
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/new_relations_in_the_workplace/
Zoom, but we are more cute than you human
and how can you not love this baby blue:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o41/Shell1002/dolphin.jpg
Briefly, what is all this crappo. Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Do you need anymore proof? He is looking at you kid.
Amigo Ronnie, yep. them bigar morons
scorpio,
Despite all the leg ups by the MSM “Commentatators”, the assurances that he doesn’t have a problem with women and free kicks like this column in the Murdoch press, you’d have to say that Abbott is losing the media war.
Rudd’s been on holidays yet seems to dominate the news cycle. He’s done cameos at the cricket, distributed a few snags at the Jane McGrath sausage sizzle and been seen walking in Tasmania with his family.
Rudd’s media has been calm, relaxed and unthreatening; all the things you’d expect during a time when Aussies are on their holidays. It’s a bit like less is more. Abbott’s publicity is almost frenzied and desperate as he tries to catch any attention he can.
This Morgan poll seems to show Abbott has made little, if any impact to date on the voters to date.
Briefly et al
The story I linked to also linked to a broadcast, which would have more info.
I only picked out the summary because I knew Finns would appreciate it.
any Lady female voers at next electon who had forgot , a repeat of Abbot insulting th dying Bernie would switch them oof
Ladies hav diferent clever intuitons from men , and Abbott seems only to mainly keep committed ‘right” women , and not moderates ladies
It’s interesting how the Indian media are “concerned” about racism and the lack of safety issues for Indians living in Melbourne. Yet, they seem averse at looking in their own backyard.
The Commonwealth Games could prove an absolute PR disaster for the Indian Government and people if fears for safety of athletes takes hold.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/10/2789027.htm
Truthy,
I was walking in the ‘hood today when I came upon this upon a building being renovated.
Truthy, do not tell a lie, did you put that graffiti on that hoarding?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter124u/4261291191/
GG
Given there ar 40,000 murders in India a year comitted by Indians on Indians , Indian students ar safer living in Australia
And Indian media’s “KKK” cartoon against australia no doubt is suported by th Far Left here , but Julie (rightley) condemned it But thereafter th Indian hypocarite medias defended th KKK cartoon
yet Police hav not even finished there investigaton of th possible motive , so how can a KKK cartoon be logicaly justifid anyway , ie apart from a KKK cartoon is anyways obsense anyway
Ron,
The KKK cartoon is just purile sensationalism. To me it’s like certain posters here who write certain things purely and simply to get a reaction. My view is deny them the pleasure.
If the Indians want to believe that crap then who am I to stop them. The reality is that the Indians will keep on coming, new migrants will keep on coming from all over the world and life in Australia will roll on.
If the Indians don’t come, I’m sure someone else from somewhere else will fill their spot.
So, is Finns a non-human person, or a non-cetacean dolphin?
My cortex is overloaded here.
Ron
Boy have you been copping it from those who feel they are superior!
We amigos know our shites stink and don’t give a rats.
I agree with your view on most things and love how you tell it like it is without the political correctness gone mad!
Keep up the good work and the entertaining posts
Please outline the lefts solution to the Aboriginal camp problems here:
………
………
………
All you guys do is harp on about the past, you have NO solutions! It’s “business as usual” for you blokes!
Truthy
Have a read
Start of work and new building was delayed 6mths because one of the 16 town camps weren’t satisfied with what the govt proposed and the 40yr leases but they lost the court challenge and things are now underway.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/aboriginal-australia/hard-decisions-to-build-a-future-for-indigenous-australians/story-e6frgd9f-1225811621190
Someone give that gramophone a whack, seems to be stuck again.
Vera, did you notice my reply to @102?
Greeny went:
It’s pretty interesting that there’s a pathological outbreak of “Tone loves the wimmin” at the moment from the usual suspects.
Also, as a broad warning, take with a grain of salt any poll that is taken in the school holiday period over New Year – historically the variance over this period with pollsters is comparatively large, suggesting that their sample is getting skewed in ways that cannot be accommodated for.
cud chewer
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/bgr/lowres/bgrn1136l.jpg
Truthy went:
Removing the reactionary talkback style opinions from the nations discourse when it comes to Indigenous development.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean all opinions are equal.
Yay! moo!
Poss have you had a tipoff on an about to be released poll?
Is Truthy gunna be pleased?
Nothing that exciting Vera! It’s just when you look over the history of polls that happen in the Christmas/New Year period going back forever, you find them being more ‘all over the place’ than you tend to find at any other period (with the possible exception of Easter)
Thank goodness for that then! Old nervous nellie here was thinking the worst.
Vera
tkx , your posts help as they actualy remind th acadamic gentry here they only represent th looney uneconamic Far Left , and we present th normal moderate aussie way
As for your query on next polls , fear not !!! , you can put money on it being another Rudd gold poll between 56% 2PP and 60% , with even th lower end 56% being an absolute landslide
not that come electon it will reach 56% , prob 54% which would be still a huge win many seats to be jpoyed abouts
Poss have you had a tipoff on an about to be released poll?
More welfare. More dependence on white fella’s. More lack of personal responsibility.
You guys are insane. You think more socialist handouts is the solution.
whops , must hav copied Vera’s extra coment in errror
Ron
Nietzsche had a better term; the herd.
I’ve noticed that lately since the likes of Pies, Bolter, PD, Jones et al have become more rabid in their campaigns against Rudd and trying desperately to give a leg-up to Abbott, that the volume of comments has increased quite dramatically with the usual RWDB’s becoming far more rabid in response.
The following was on Abbott’s blog but I have seen far worse on some of the other blogs! They seem to be working towards turning this country into another version of the US and it’s probably only a matter of time before some of these nutters start putting into action what they are spewing out in the blogosphere! Unfortunately!
The likes of Abbott and the other suspects mentioned have a lot to answer for in encouraging this sort of thing. All in the pursuit of power!
But this is more typical of Abbott’s replies. He “never” calls them to account. Just encourages them!
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/new_relations_in_the_workplace/
India has called for more responsible reporting by their media:
http://www.theage.com.au/world/india-urges-restraint-in-reporting-of-attacks-20100110-m0iz.html
Article repeats there is no evidence the recent murder was racially motivated and also casts doubt on the story of the man who was set alight (suggestion is that no crime may have been committed).
In another article, it was revealed that the Indian man murdered in Sydney was killed by Indians who were working as sub contractors for him.
And (for those who want more ammunition when dealing with cc sceptics), this article on the changing harvesting time for grapes is of interest:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/grape-growers-first-to-harvest-a-bunch-of-changes-20100109-m00y.html
z
Are they saying, without saying it, that he did it to himself? That’s exactly what happened with a young lady I looked after once.
Diogenes
Posted Sunday, January 10, 2010 at 10:24 pm | Permalink
Ron
tkx , your posts help as they actualy remind th acadamic gentry here they only represent th looney uneconamic Far Left , and we present th normal moderate aussie way
“Nietzsche had a better term; the herd.”
well youse Green Hacks irelevent in your Far Left redundent book theories ar on th outer , gooses flocks ar ye
Diog
it’s all in police speak but that seems to be the suggestion.
I will admit to thinking the timing a bit neat at the time.
It will be interesting to see what comes out when they finish their investigation.
zomm, the locals call it demoCRAZY. how true, especially when the curry is aint half as hot Mum.
BW, just a soul whose intentions are good, and oh Lord dont let me be misunderstood.
so many here lack reel educton , like th dolfinnSpeak dialec
No they are saying that Indians recruited by him may have killed him because he was ripping them off.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/two-questioned-over-burnt-body-of-indian-worker-in-griffith-20100109-m03q.html
Vera
different Indian.
The one in NSW was (apparently) killed by workers. The one in Melbourne, who was doused in petrol, set on fire and survived:
They’re both Mr Singhs, apparently.
vera
I’m talking about the burns guy. The other one was always a falling out story.
Bloody Singhs – about as common as Smith or Jones
Thanks Zoomster
wRONg Singh, both burnt!
and Vera , th housemate & friend of Mr Garg that Inians blew up sensationaly , is also Mr Singh
Xmas & Easter – freakin’ up the polls…Mmmm…knew there was something about the g/b business…….
Zoom
Do you know if ever the idea of an aboriginal uni got off the ground?
Ron
how does it go again
We ride we fight we love we singh
Reading this article it is easy to see why the police are keeping an open mind about the incident. It seems very strange to me. Maybe an insurance job gone slightly wrong?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sunday-telegraph/car-torched-indian-burned/story-e6frewt0-1225817683446
absolutely !
also th Indian accused of racism against aussie cricketer Symonds was a Singh !
I thought it was a crime to do one self in, well at least if you failed.
not sure if anyone has seen this angle of th colison between Whale ship & greenpeace , but if you keep pausing it , th Greenpeace boat seems to be wRONg positioned a direcly in th path of th Whale boat , from a fair distance before th colison
and just stationary there expectin a big ship to be able to change couse
perhaps there ar other angles available showing th 2 Ships couses even further out
than this video , however this video is almost directly behind
Other query is why was that 2nd video ship there as well
http://player.video.news.com.au/dailytelegrap/#5A71eeOnsBN7McesFjztDjoc3OBw6lLz
It was a photo-op Ron and you know it. Nothing wrong with photo ops…just part of politics
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sunday-telegraph/car-torched-indian-burned/story-e6frewt0-1225817683446
play Indian story video , then you come to Whale Boat video opton
Front page of the Daily Telegraph…wow..money couln’t buy that type of advertising…BTW I know one of the photographers on the “other ship”……
I for one am going to cease buying products made or branded by Japanese firms until Japan stops whaling. There is no reason at all for humans to kill whales.
its looney politics for sensatonalism to place a small boat anywhere near a large Ship on th high seas , no matter who actualy caused th colison
its iresponsible , but then your lot ar
my video was not posted for you you ar glued on Far out , but for objective posters to look at th angles shot , th couses and th distances as i hav an opne mind on colison’s blame
which is a diferent issue to Greenpeace’s recklessness being so close to a big Ship with less moveiability
Ron
1.Greenpeace has nothing to do with the SSCS
2.The japanese whaler rammed the ady gil.
I dont give a toss about whaling as such,but the japs are out of order on this one.
Gus
Well i just could not determine from those angles on that particular video colison blame
so asked for othrs opinion See i’m not expert on boats , only went out fishing once with mates , a damn 800 out , th boat sank almost immediatly , and we had to swim for shore
th worser news was whilst i did not lose a fishing line seeing i had none to start , but th VB’s went down , all
back to Japenese , there argument is cultural traditon , BS seeeing only i think 15% eat it
also as we hav discussed before , i dont like it as only way to kill whales is an unhumane way , which to me is th very reason why humans should not do it
Ron
Greenpeace prefer a direct campaign targetting japanese voters.
the sea shepherd group are radicals but the whaler intentionally altered course to ram the ady gil.
I dont like the japanese tactics
The whaling activities are essentially actions of the Japanese Government in order to protect their high seas fishing industry and to ensure they have access to fisheries resources in international waters. Considering this is an industry in which Japan has made very big investments and has notable competitive advantages, it is not surprising the Japanese Government are unwilling to cease whaling.
What is surprising is their willingness to use methods that are – at best – very close to being illegal. Greenpeace have scored a victory here: the Japanese Government have been lured to the brink. They have been shown to be willing to put the lives of protesters in jeopardy so they can kill whales. This cannot be good for Japan.
two wRONgs do not make a “rite”
ramming is ilegal ,
th radicals ar reckless
targeting japenese voters like you said is done by othr Group is not reckless but sensible
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/industry-sectors/farm-hunger-striker-peter-spencer-faces-eviction/story-e6frg95o-1225817871395?from=public_rss
How is th Sherrif gonna serve th notice with th guy still up th pole
Easy Peasy – with a Cherrypicker of course
Thats what happens when you park your brand new Porsche on the railway tracks.
never thought of that Frank
I used to be against whaling…. until I got educated on the subject.
Minkie Whales are in record numbers, and are like the rabbits of the sea… the Japanese are only taking a handful every whaling season meaning the number of Minkie Whales is actually INCREASING not decreasing.
With this knowledge I fully support Japans sustainable hunting program, and would even through a Minkie Whale Steak on the Barbie if I could.
TheTruthHurts
Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 at 1:17 am | Permalink
“I used to be against whaling…. until I got educated on the subject.”
be careful about getting too much too educaton , look whats happened too th Far left , so much info in there brains there is no room to sort it logicaly
hav you gone th th same way , i mean whaling killing is unhumane
Tully Pre-School?
Just had a look at the video from the sea shepard site of the raming of the Ady Gil.
http://www.seashepherd.org/matilda/video.html
I would see this as good evidence in any enquiry. Mainly because of the angle its taken from. The Japanese ship is heading pretty much straight for the camera which gives a very usefull perspective to see if and how they were manuvering and it seems to show that the Ady Gil WAS NOT UNDER WAY or was moving very slowly.
This is so different from the Japanese supplied video that was published in the OO a few days ago that i would dispute they of even the same incident. Yet this one is obviously the one where the Ady Gil lost her bows.
There is little or no wake or prop wash behind the Ady Gil. There is some disturbance in the water aft but that is all from water cannon off the Japanese ship.
From the changing angle of the view of the whaler it is also pretty obvious that the Japanese ship turned to starboard (towards the Ady Gill ) and was moving at speed just before the collision. It then turned to port and even after the collision was still targeting the Ady Gil with water cannon.
I think that the Sea Shepard group have some pretty convincing evidence that one of their boats was purposely rammed by a Japanese whaler. If the whaler had manuvered to port while there was still some distance between the vessels (about 18 seconds before the impact) then the collision would not have happened. The Japanese actually manuvered to make the collision happen and then continued to harrass thier target with water cannon afterwards when they should have been offering assistance.
If that ship makes port in Australia or NZ then i think the skipper should be held pending an investigation, ship impounded. If the Japanese dont like it, stuff them. They may try ro argue that they were provoked but that wont wash. Its lucky for the Japanese that they only cut the bows off and no-one was killed because if they had hit the Ady Gil a few feet further aft i think it would have crushed the bridge area and probably kileed some or all of the crew.
http://player.video.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/#5A71eeOnsBN7McesFjztDjoc3OBw6lLz
This is th link from th Daily Tele I posted of th colison earlier where i said i could not tell from th angles shown th cause/fault of colison & asked othr posters opinion as i’m not a boat owner expert
and also asked if longer view videos ar avialable
You can not access this Daily Tele link by clicking on to it but only by copying it onto th box bit where you key in site address’s
It IS th Ady Gil video , and to me was UNCONCLUSIVE (but seeing Gus was very sure it was a raming i acepted his opinion
Since then we hav IMMACA’s one
http://www.seashepherd.org/matilda/video.html
is th SAME Ady Gil video !
However what is diferent is IMACA’s is 3 seconds longer , starting 8 seconds before th guy says “FRK” , but th Daily tele’s one is only 5 seconds before th “FRK”
th extra 3 seconds difererense in IMACCA’s one makes th change of couse to ram by th Japenese ship obvous
so naughty Daily Tele , there video is 100% acurate on what they linked , but is deceptive (at best) for not showing th whole video , and reely (at worst) efectively a false report
A i said earlier , this incident contains 2 wRONgs
1/ th Ady Gil crew ar 100% reckless , delib placing a boat anywhere near a big Ship on th high seas , it endangersa lives recklessley , and
2/ th japenese hav illegaly rammed
one could argue that if 1/ had not ocurred , then 2/ would not hav ocurred , but factualy th Japenese Ship still delib rammed ilegaly and did not hav to
so both should be prosecuted , for diferent sea ofenses
The Japanese Government appear to have breached maritime law and should be taken to court. I wonder who has standing in this situation? Can a non-government agency – Greenpeace- take a fishing company to court? Since the fishing company is working for the Japanese Government, can the same agency bring legal action against the Government? Where would this be heard? In Japan or in The Hague?
Referring to the video taken from the Japanese ship what I see is consistent with the description given by Greenpeace, and that was that the Ady Gil was idling initially and then was put into reverse just before the collision.
If you look carefully you’ll see what appears to be backwash from reverse power, just before they collide. I’m not an expert, but what I see is that its at least consistent with the Greenpeace description.
Put it this way, one thing that is obvious is that the Ady Gil was powered up and if you were there you’d be mad to want to put it into forward.
The worst part is that even given the angle, you can still see the Japanese ship changing course. My bet is that the Japanese master miscalculated. He attempted a side swipe and didn’t realise the Ady was right across his bow.
So.. recklessness on both sides, but the Japanese are the ones that will come out looking worst in court.
Apology for off topic post – this is on the Midle East and the suicide bomber who killed 7 CIA operatives a few days ago. There is a good discussion of it on Juan Cole’s Informed Comment blog. The bombing is a significant step, because it indicates the presence of the Taliban in northern Waziristan, as well as al Quaida.
The wife of the bomber, a Jordanian doctor, spoke of why he was radicalised in an AP interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idla9Gvql3U&feature=player_embedded%20
He became anti-US after the Abu Ghraib prison scandal and even more so after the Israeli invasion of Gaza. Once again, illegal and unethical behaviour by the US and its allies has created their own enemy. The guilty parties of course will never stand trial. The War on terror will never end under these circumstances, because the battle for the “hearts and minds” of Arab people’s is lost. Maybe permanent war is what Israel and the US defense industries want, but I hope we keep out of it. Vietnam all over again.
Here is video from the Japanese ship:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ9HlEFOk94&NR=1
It seems to me from this video that the trimaran was trying to go forward at the time of impact.
Are there any boat experts here to confirm or debunk that?
For those very interested in more than “yah, boo, suck” sthe sinking of the Ady Gil, Lavartus have a very comprehensive post plus a number of very interesting comments. One in particular by MarkL describes the Law of the Sea and how it could be applied in this case:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/
As one who earned his living on deep water for a few years (and this included rule-of-the-road fun as a matter of routine), I am qualified to comment on this, with caveats.
What do the regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at sea say?
Rule 7
Risk of collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.
(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:
(i) such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change;
(ii) such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range
OK. Does a risk of collision exist?
Yes. Most definitely. Please note 7.d.i & ii. Note that the bearing of black vessel is moving RIGHT at the start (2nd video): ie, it is being overtaken by Shonan Maru BUT the range is closing rapidly. The black vessel is underway and making way. She is not stopped. We’ll get back to this.
Now look at Vid 1 from the SS second vessel (vid 1): Shonan Maru is behaving typically of a small vessel in a seaway where the vessel is steaming in to it, she is yawing about her course and the helmsman therefore has to keep working the helm to keep her on course.
She defintely alters to starboard too late to avoid collision.
However, who is responsible for the close quarters situation here?
The black vessel is. She is interfering with the Japanese, who are lawfully engaged in fisheries activites on the high seas.
Rule 8
Action to avoid collision
(a) Any action to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
Here, both captains can be criticised. Neither took positive action in ample time to avoid collision.
(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.
(c) If there is sufficient sea-room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.
Again, both can be criticised here
(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.
(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation, a vessel shall slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.
We do not need to consider part f i to iii
]Rule 15
Crossing situation
When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.
The Black vessel’s owners will make their case on Rule 15. They will claim that Shonan Maru did not give way in a crossing situation. However, there’s a real twist to this sorry piece of stupidity, below)
Rule 16
Action by give- way vessel
Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.
Again, the Captain of the black vessel will make a case based also on Rule 16, that Shonan Maru did not take ‘early and substantial action’ to keep clear in this ‘crossing situation’.
Rule 17
Action by stand-on vessel
(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.
But hang on a minute. The black vessel DID NOT obey Rule 17.1. She DID NOT keep her course and speed. So, do we actually have a crossing situation? Shonan Maru now has a case to say ‘no’.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
Again, the black vessel, if her captain thought her in a crossing situation, DID NOT obey this regulation.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
And again, the black vessel did not do this.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
Caveat – this is open. The black vessel may or may not have altered to port just before impact.
(
d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.
This means that [b]IF [/b]the Shonan Maru was the give way vessel, she should have given way.
Now we get to the really interesting bit. On the video from Shonan maru (Vid 2), look at the black vessel.
How did she get there? Everything depends on this question.
How did the black vessel get to her position on the starboard bow of Shonan Maru?
Caveat: Assumption. The video does not show how the black vessel obtained her position – but Shonan Maru is not doing more that 10-12 knots, not yawing like that into a head sea.
IF the black vessel obtained her position by overtaking Shonan Maru, then most of the above is moot, because Rule 13 applies:
Rule 13
Overtaking
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of part B, sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
Note this rule very carefully. IF the black vessel overtook Shonan Maru, then [i]she is completely at fault for this collision (part d).
You cannot convert an overtaking situation into a crossing situation.
Looking at the wake of the black vessel, she is underway, making way, and I believe there is a strong chance she was the overtaking vessel.
It is also obvious that her captain was deliberately not obeying COLREGs – indeed he deliberately created the close quarters situation that led to the collision. The Japanese captain (who will be facing a formal investigation into the collision) does appear to have been following COLREGs.
I hope this goes to an Admiralty Court. It could establish some useful precedents in Admiralty Law. IMO will be following this closely.
MarkL
Canberra
The Anti whaling thing wasn’t insured, it was purchased for $1.5M (Yeh sure) it was driven under the on coming ship. its got the ‘Sea Shepard about $10m worth of anti Japanese whaling vision on televisions around the world. I think they would have been very happy about it. They did have the bost modified and I can’t help being cynical and thinking they stuck a bit of bolsa wood in the front designed to snap of when run over by a 10,000 tonne ship..
For anyone interested, today on Sydney “Radio Liberal”, it’s “Support Peter Spencer Day”.
LMAO
GG
It appears she was not doing either. The rules of the sea are all well and good, and are essential for ships approaching/passing/crossing each other in a seaway.
But they seem irrelevant in this incident – at least in the sense that they have been totsaly flouted by the Japanese ship in what was a ramming, plain and simple.
To be fair, it seems your maritime poster at LP had not seen this footage of the whole period leading up to impact.
Have a look at the video of the 3 minutes leading up to the incident, that has only been available for the last half-day or so. It show the skipper and crew of the Ady Gil at stop, waving goodbye to the MV Bob Barker after their day of action. The crew is resting on deck, when the Shonan Maru 2 comes into view at speed. It then turns towards the Adu Gil, turns on its water cannon and rams the smaller ship. On that evidence, the skipper of the Shonan Maru 2 is responsible for culpable navigation, and the skipper of the Ady Gil is responsible for no wrong-doing whatsoever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jom3J0JKnHY
Commentary article on the clip here:
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2010/01/11/120771_tasmania-news.html
Scorps
It could well have been a drug lab which blew up. We get lots of sheepish young men with burns to their hands, forearms and face who give very dodgy stories about how it happened.
The Japanese are whining about Julia Gillard’s comments on the whaling incident. They’re almost as precious as the Chinese.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/japan-pins-whale-row-on-gillard/story-e6frg6nf-1225817884055
Diogenes,
That could explain why the damaged clothing has not been found.
It would also suggest that the torching of the vehicle was a cover for the burns being received elsewhere.
Barking@475:
Barking by name, barking mad by nature.
That is so stupid a comment it is not even wRONg.
jv,
You’ve already decided te Sea Shepherd are the dough eyed innocents in this little escapade. Unfortunately, the facts don’t seem to bear you out. I think the Law of the Sea is actually critical in the future analysis of this incident. So you can huff and puff to your hearts content. However, I don’t think any system of Laws will endorse a vessel deliberately going out of their way to look for trouble and then come whingeing when they find it.
Tim Blair has a reasonably straight forward account of the incident with a few barbs for the anti whalers thrown in.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/just-who-is-telling-tall-tales-of-whales/story-e6frezz0-1225817849861
JV @ 477,
You are entirely correct. A point that many commentators fail to grasp is that the vessel which rams the Adi Gill is “not” a whaler! It is a “security” vessel which has accompanied the whaling fleet to ensure security for the whaler vessels.
Its Master has substantially exceeded any reasonable action to assist whalers going about their business unhindered by Greenpeace harassment of operations.
The Adi Gill was at rest and not engaged in any such activity. The Japanese vessel approached from well astern of the Adi Gill and to port, travelling at speed it turns to starboard with either the intention to give the Adi Gill a good old roughing up or to deliberately ram the at rest vessel.
Either way the action was dangerous to the safety of the Adi Gill and its crew and should be condemned!
Hey there bludgers! Thought I’d better throw in my two cents worth on the sea ramming as I’ve been away for a while
Whichever way you look at it, the Adi Gil was rammed by another ship at sea, while it was minding it’s own business. Whatever actions it had taken previously in harassing whaling operations is irrelevant. The youtube video that jv linked to at #477 is absolutely damning. The Adi Gil is just sitting there idle in the open ocean when the Japanese ship comes over to it with water cannons blazing and rams it.
GG and others can have a good sulk about the Sea Shepherd crazies being a menace and thus them getting what they deserved, but that doesn’t matter one iota in this instance. The Japs were solely at fault. They sought out and rammed an idle ship on the open ocean. If the Sea Shepherd bunch had done the same you’d be screaming for them to be executed!
Lesson of the day:
Don’t park your bran new sports car on the railway tracks, or you might get hit!
I think we should wait for Finns to find out from his dolphin mates what the real story was, or wait until it goes through court.
On another Finns-related matter, I note that Finns indulges in extreme risk-taking behaviour by working a computer with wet flippers which would leave him at great risk of electrocution. Every post would be a risk.
From this, I deduce that Finns likes very spicy food, as risk-taking behaviour is closely correlated with liking spicy food.
Dario claims,
“The Japs were solely at fault. They sought out and rammed an idle ship on the open ocean”
Yet, another informed source says:
“Experts who looked at footage of the incident seem to agree that the Ady Gil is not blameless and may be mainly, if not entirely, to blame for what occurred.”
So who do I believe, the prejudiced blatheirngs of someone who would make up their minds based on emotion or an informed source?
If making judgements based on facts is sulking, I wear the sobriquet with pride.
GG
‘Dough eyed’ – Are you suggesting the Ady Gil crew needed the old Irish remedy of bread poultices on their black eyes after the collision?
If anyone still thinks the Ady Gil was responsible for the collision after viewing that footage and reading the commentary in the article, then then that ‘dough’ is between their ears – clearly that condition afflicts Tim Blair. Under his rules of the sea, a stationary boat is somehow responsible when an approaching ship appears to be passing by, but turns sharply to ram it at the last moment?
GG
A little slip-sliding there. That quote is from an editorial in a New Zealand paper on the weekend. Which of these ‘experts’ referred to had seen the latest footage made available overnight, showing the 3:20 mins up to the ramming? None, I’d say. That makes their opinions at that time, based as they were on incomplete evidence, rather worthless.
jv,
“Dough” in sense they’re more interested in the donations and the free publicity.
The rest of it is you repeating your personal view based on your prejudices and uninformed opinion.
I’m more than happy to wait for the experts who don’t have an “oar to row” in this matter. However, such stuff as I’ve read is not particularly supportive of the anti whalers.
AWWWW Poor Ady Gil, they parked their car on the railway tracks… how were they to know it was going to get hit! They weren’t even moving when it happened.
The crocodile tears are flowing from my eyes
The vid linked by JV @ 477 is pretty good. Shows the Ady Gil basicaly tooling along (yup, from this and other vids i now agree the Ady Gil was under power and under way) and attacked and rammed by a japanese vessel.
It seems a bit like the maritime equivilent of being king hit by a bouncer outside a pub.
This particular japanese vessel was not engaged in lawful “fishing” activities at the time and it seems that just prior to the collision they purposely closed on the Ady Gil from some distance away, were in fact trying to over take the Ady Gil, opened fire with water cannon as soon as they could, and maintained that fire even after they had rammed the Ady Gil.
Seems that with every new piece of video evidence that gets published (and in particular the longer ones that give better context) the more it looks like the Japanese deliberatley sought to run down and sink the Ady Gil.
Like the poster GG quoted earlier I really hope that the facts of this incident is subject to detailed enquiry in the highest jurisdiction possible. There are going to be some precedents come out of this. One is a recognition that the Japanese will commit violent acts in international waters against people who disagree with what they are doing all the while continuing with their bloody minded bullshit about this being “scientific whaling”.
Will be interesting if the Aust Govt finally does mount a legal challenge as to the basis of that challenge. If they challenge the “scientific” aspects of the program which i think are vulnerable then they may have a chance of winning.
I hope that “security vessel” and her crew have to put into an Australian or NZ port for something this year. Impound the lot, wait for the Japanese to bleat about how they are being badly treated, humiliate them in court over this ramming and their whaling lobby’s lies over the years.
They would have been looking at the video provided by the Japanese ship, which unsurprisingly only shows the immediate incident and not the minutes preceding it where the Japanese ship essentially lined it up. I’ll bet once they see the footage jv linked to they will sharply change their tune.
And if you’re going to use a word like ‘blatherings’, at least do us the courtesy of spelling it right…
lol, actually, we’re going off the footage available. ALL the footage available.
The footage does look pretty damning. The fact that the sailors on the Ady are very relaxed and joking shows they weren’t trying to create a situation.
Dario,
You’re an expert on maritime collisions? I must apologise.
LEt me guess…. the poor Ady Gil was outsped and out manevoured by a 300 Ton whaling boat and hunted down like a baby gazelle escaping from a 3 angry cheetahs.
Please PLEASE can we cut the bullshit. Ady Gil parked it’s arse on the railway lines and got hit by a run away freight train! Diddums!
Diogenes,
Might just mean they’ve under estimated the risk of the situation they put themseves in.
GG
True but they certainly didn’t get themselves rammed deliberately. I thought there would be a lot more excitement on board.
Nope, but having read your post at #474 it’s pretty clear that the person who made their assessment of the incident (with the Gil supposedly being largely at fault) was doing so using the Japanese video only, as most of their assertions are clearly wrong when the video from the Gil is viewed. Using the ‘laws of the sea’ from that post, the Gil video pretty much absolves the Gil of any wrong doing. They were just sitting there not moving and were pursued and rammed by the Japanese boat. I don’t know how you can possibly mount an alternative case after viewing that footage (and I’m guessing you still haven’t viewed it, and probably won’t).
GG
Whilst being no expert meself.,the fundamental fact is that the japanese vessel altered courset to strike the ady gil.
Whether the ady gil imperilled itself is irrelevenat to the central fact that it was rammed.
Where’s musrum? I need to thank him again for stfu! There’s nothing better than not seeing Truthy’s ramblings
Diogs,
No one trashes a $2m boat deliberately. However, their irresponsible actions, bravado and lack of awareness may have made the outcome inevitable.
Sitting idle in the open ocean is hardly ‘imperilling’ yourself in any case
GG, watch the Gil footage. ALL of it. Then read your comment above again and tell me where their irresponsible action, bravado or lack of awareness was in this case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jom3J0JKnHY
dario
I am yet to say they are blameless,but the available evidence seems to suggest that no-one was “on watch”
As i understand it ,the ady can kick arse when needed,so the fact they were idling and didnt not fang out of the way is a tad worrisome
GG
They should have expected to be rammed, while sitting quietly in full view of a commercial ship on the high seas in daylight? Your contortions are yoga-like.
If I park my car on the railway tracks, can I blame the train driver for hitting the car like the posters are suggesting here because my car isn’t the one moving?
Please turn brains into ON position before typing.
Troothy
I humbly suggest you conduct a field trial of your idea.
lets us know the result willya
You can’t see behind the camerman so you don’t know that
Are you saying the Japanese ship didn’t see them?
I can see how things looked as though the crew of the Ady Gil was mainly at fault from the video evidence published early on after this collision. But, now that there are longer sequences out that show the context of how the collision occured, i think its clearly the Japanses at fault.
Its clear that the Japanese were overtaking the Ady Gil (and so at law were supposed to keep clear), and while doing so altered course (from some distance away!!) to close the distance and create the risk of collision. There was no risk of collsion until the Japanese vessel altered course to starboard and lined up pass close too or ram the Ady Gil. The distance involved when the Japanese turned towards the Ady Gil means that the arguments that have been raised about the relative manuvering capabilities of the vessels are irrelevant. Their intention to close the distance is clearly demostrated by their obvious and early actions.
It could also be agrued that they used their water cannon on the crew of the Ady Gil as they were approaching to intentionally impede that crews ability manuver out of the way. Someone on the Japanese “security” vessel made a deliberate choice to close on and attack the Ady Gil. Maybe they just meant to cut it close, but the most charitable interpretation of this is that they f$%^ed up dig time and nearly killed 6 people at sea through incompetance.
The more evidence that comes out about this the more the Japanses look at fault.
Dario
au contraire
The fact is that the ady gil was rammed.
the inquiry will need to establish culpabilty and whether any action contributed to the actual ramming.
the japanese have no defence of being unsighted or “bad weather” as a cause of the collision
the ady gil has presumably a defence for why it did not take action to avoid the collision
japanese 0
SSCS 1
Are you saying the Ady Gil crew didn’t see or hear them?
The cocky wankers were even making jokes about the Japanese Whaler alarm to get away from their ship.
“OOOOhhh we are soo scared! Ahehehehehe” *Smash* “Oh Fu…!”
Dario,
As said previously, I’m more than happy for the experts to make their call of which your esteemed knowledge is internationally renowned. The additional video really confirms that they were rammed, which we already knew. I’d also suggest the Ady Gil crew’s behaviour would confirm what I wrote earlier.
As to blame, I doubt either party will come out smelling of roses.
After seeing the long vid from the Ady Gil i’d have to agree with Gusface@@512.
The Japanese have no defence (other than incompetance) in the matter of the collision which sank the Ady Gil.
The Sea Shepard mob were not at fault IN THIS CASE. From the early, Japanese produced vids i too thought that they were.
The Ady Gil crew were obviosly keeping a lookout appropriate to the conditions (they knew the Japanese were there) and from the distance and relative course of the Japanese ship BEFORE it turned in on them they were entitled to believe that there was no risk of collision.
Japanese will have to apologise big time for this.
One thing the water cannon being turned on proves, is that the Japanese ship was targetting the Ady Gil, along with the hard turn to starboard at its target by the Japanese ship.
Regardless of any proven intention to ram, the relevant term for that sort of reckless endangerment at sea is I believe ‘culpable navigation’.
I’ve never claimed to be an expert, but as I’ve said I think those ‘experts’ will be changing their tune pretty soon once they see the Gil footage.
lol, it does a lot more than that
It suggests that they weren’t expecting to be rammed, which is hardly surprising…
Gusface – well that one woke me up! thanks for the laugh.
Some causes for doubt:
1. Was the longer video taken from a boat which was itself not stationary? Was this vessel moving from left to right? (I do hope the Sea Shepherd train its crews so that they have a larger and more imaginative vocabulary.)
2. Did the earlier video show that the wake of the Ady Gil increased in whiteness shortly before the collision?
3. If the Ady Gil was stationary and in danger of collision did the skipper have the option of putting the Ady Gil in reverse? If so, why didn’t he take it?
4. If the Ady Gil was under way at the time of the collision, which appears to me to have been the case, why did the Ady Gil not make any turn to starboard to avoid collision?
5. Was the skipper of the Ady Gil seeking a glancing collision but then cocked it up? If not that, would you ever go on board a vessel with him/her as a skipper?.
6. Last year the Australian macropod quota (six species of kangaroo and wallaby) was over 4 million. This is probably by far and away the biggest commercial terrestrial kill on the planet. Is Australia hypocritical?
http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/publications/kangaroo/quotas-background-2009.html
7. Just a minor point of pedantry in relation to some of the posts above. In olden days the rudder of some vessels was more like a board attached to the side of the ship rather than the back of the ship. This was the ‘steer’, ‘steor’ or ‘stuurboord’ which became our ‘starboard’. I suspect that this thing hampered berthing at wharves somewhat, so the other side became the ‘port’ side. Not sure about the latter. So starboard is on the right hand side of the ship when facing the bow of the ship.
I think in terms of this issue,we should muscle up.
We have a natural custodianship of our far southern/antartic waters.
I hope the gvt decides to proactively adminster this area.
I think the japanese have blown it big time with this act of aggression.
GG @ 503
Why didn’t they just use their signature “rubber duckies” instead of that rather fragile looking carbon fibre monstrosity. At least they would have bounced off and it would hardly have been news worthy.
Dario,
I love all the “two bob” lawyers. Your legal opinions are worth all of that.
Peter,
Happy to add misjudgement of their equipment capability to the list of their stupidities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jom3J0JKnHY
2:06 – 2:13
**Japanese Whaling Boat *COLLISION ALARM* SOUNDING LOUDLY and getting closer**
Greenie Wanker 1: “Oooh an alarms on”
Greenie Wanker 2: “Ooohhhhhhhh, I’m so scared!!” *Laughs*
Greenie Wanker 1: “Someone get me out of here!” *Laughs*
*Both Laugh Loudly Cockily*
2:20 Unknown Greenie Wanker to Greenie Wanker driving boat: “Hey see if you can get a close up…. ahhh close as you can to the guy already”
2:35 Boat motors now under power and moving forwards at an angle comign towards the path of the whaling boat
**Audible Japanese Whaling Ship *COLLISION** Warnings getting louder and louder**
3:20 BANG!
Leftwing Wankers!
You can regard them any way you like. Your furious back-pedalling is evidence enough for me.
imacca
Spot on. From my own sailing experience, courses, tests etc. I know it is is incumbent on all parties to avoid a collision at sea when sucha rtisk arises. Part of the process is assessing the risk continually, and acting if required to avoid another vessel.
The Ady Gil crew were keeping a proper lookout, and watched the Japanese ship as soon as they heard its sonar. It was on a course to pass them easily, but turned hard to starboard. The Ady Gil crew were entitled to assume that the other ship would not bear down on them deliberately, against the rules of the sea. There was no danger of collision until the sudden actions of the Japanese skipper. It was then too late, and the Ady Gil crew cannot be held responsible for any failure to avoid a collision. I think there are some posting opinions who have not bothered to watch the 3:20 minutes of latest footage.
Right at the end of the video the Greenie Wankers say “Wooah Wooah Wooah!”
Now why would they say that do you?
Could it perhaps been because the boat was being propelled FORWARDS at the time into the path of the Japanese Ship?
This thing is a closed case as far as I’m concerned. Japanese Whaling Boat had collision warning on for over 2 minutes, Ady Gil not only failed to pay heed to this warning, but actually joked about it and did the absolutely IDIOTIC thing of ACCELERATING into the path of the Japanese Whaler.
Did the Ady Gil not hear the collision warnings? Will the lefties in here claim that they didn’t? Come on, tell us the truth!
Dario,
No need for me to back pedal, furiously or otherwise. I’m relaxing on calmed seas on my Sea Shepherd monikered lilo.
Nothing could possible upset my day.
Didn’t this happen in Australian waters? Does that mean we are stuck cleaning up the legal mess and annoying people in general? Where is the court case? I gather the Ady Gil is a NZ ship and has laid some charges in NZ but this must be a legal minefield.
My uninformed opinion is that the Japanese boat caused it collision but the crew on the Ady Gil could have done more to prevent it.
But I’ve been wRONg before (thank you Mr Grech
)
Well you’ve gone from posting articles from Tim Blair to then saying that you think both parties will wear the blame. I’d call that back pedalling any day
I don’t believe so
TTH, the Japanese were sounding their “Alarm” long before there was a risk of collision. So, its only a “collision alarm” if it is some new signal for:
I am about to radically alter course to create the risk of a collision and attack you with water cannon.
Must have miised the ammendments to the COLREG’s that created that one???
Er, I think you will find that the sound in the footage was long-distance sonar, not a ‘collision warning’.
The proper sound where there is risk of collision and one vessel is unclear of the other’s intention is 5 blasts of the ships horn. This means essentially “What do you intend to do?” The other ship should then give either “I am going to port” (2 short blasts) or “I am going to starboard” (1 blast) – or possibly “I am going astern” (3 short blasts).
The Japanese ship did not give the 5 blasts signal, it simply turned at speed into the smaller vessel. The signal for “I am about to overtake you on your port side.” is 2 long blast followed by 2 short blasts. I didn’t hear the Japanese boat sound that one either.
In this case, it was a simple ramming using a last minute turn to starboard at speed into the other vessel. There is no international signal for that manoevre, that I know of.
It happened in what everybody except Australia considers international waters, but waters where Australia has rescue respoinsibility. Will e interesting to see what jusrisdictions this is contested under.
Off to vacswim with offspring.
i have watched that video about a dozen times.
the japanese ship alters course at 3 seperate points.each one bringing its bearing closer and closer to the ady gil.
the ady gil for all intents and purposes was idling.
Boer,
Just guessing but, because of preventing damage to the oar, the starboard side has to be facing the sea. That leaves the left on the side where the port (dock) is.
Dario,
My original post of the LP article and the Laws of the Sea was actually to broaden the discussion. Posting Blair was mainly to be provocative and to capture the New Zealand quote regarding the expert opinion (as a balance to the pseudo lawyers and maritime experts).
I have said a number of times that I’m happy to wait for the experts to come up with an analysis and that I prefer not to rely on people like yourself who start with a conclusion and then go seeking evidence to support their prejudices.
Haven’t seen any need to pillory the Japanese since others seem to have that market well cornered. However, there has been a profitable little earner in showing up the rather strange behaviour of the crew of the Ady Gil.
So, no back pedalling here comrade.
The origin of ‘starboard’ is that the steering oarsmen or ruddermen at the stern in the olden days were generally right-handed. This I find discriminatory, being a left-handed sailor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starboard
GG
Old Chinese proverb:
“Too late for cyclist to back pedal after running head-on into brick wall.”
BULLLLSHIIITTTT….
Sonar goes in the water, not in the air.
It was a “collision warning” sounded in emergencies. Unfortunately the people on the Ady Gil thought it was just one big joke(as shown in the video) and actually accelerated towards the path of the Japanese Boat.
Gee I wonder how that would go in court.
JV,
Mixed metaphor? Cyclists don’t run.
Perhaps it is you that’s been doing too much running into brickwalls. I reckon you’ll feel better when you give up these Harry Potter impersonations.
I did no such thing, and am no Sea Shepherd fan. It would seem however that your only rebuttal of the points of view being expressed by those here who find the Japanese ship to be at fault are ad hominem. A shame really.
Actually TTH it was an LRAD – Long Reange Accoustic device. Kinda like the screamer on a home alarm system, but much gruntier. They’re designed to overwhelm the target with a wave of pulsating sound that does a number of things including making the fluid in the semi-circular canals go pulsate producing disorientation, loss of balance and nausea. The putative reason for the installation on the whale boats was as anti-boarding devices, but they’ve been used as countermeasures against the SS activists, including their helicopter (although that sounds a trifle pointless).
And I guess the water cannon being fired before, during and after the collision were just another form of collision warning, eh TTH.
Which means that at the top speed of the whaling fleet “security vessel” it was at least a kilometre or more aft and to the port stern of the Adi Gill.
One would think that was more than enough distance for the Jap boat to avoid any chance of a collision with another vessel.
Not only did it “not” do so, it actually turned to starboard putting it on a collision course with the “stationary” vessel.
By the time the crew of the Adi Gill realised that a collision was imminent, they would “not” have had time to get their vessel into sufficient motion to do so.
The Adi Gill is something like 70 feet long and weighs 13 tons. Sitting at rest, it takes quite some effort to get a vessel moving sufficiently to enable any manoeuvrability to get out of the path of a vessel “turning” into your path. Just try docking one to see what I mean. It was a sitting duck!
The only “idiotic thing” is your stupid statements.
Even if the Adi Gill was attempting to get out of the way of imminent collision it wouldn’t have been able to get sufficient momentum in enough time to avoid the collision and anyway if they were, if the Japanese boat then turned to port or even ceased its starboard turn, it would have still collided with the Adi Gill which would have made an even more damning case that the Japanese vessel deliberately set course to “collide” with the Adi Gill!
Dario @541,
Reread your 484. Lol.
TTH
No, nothing in my experience of a ‘collision warning’ like the noise the Japanese ship was making. Just the five blasts. Where is this new single repeated sound in the CollRegs?
The Mercury article caled it the Japanese ship’s “long-range acoustic device”
Not sonar as you say, but not a ‘collision warning’ either.
The SSCS skipper will go very well in court, having been rammed, and himself breaching no rule.
TheTruthOverboard 527
The collision warning amounts to no more than the marine equivalent of some idiot in a 4WD sounding his horn for people to get out of their way in the car park. It doesn’t change the rules on right of way, or prove who was at fault.
I am skeptical of both sides on this (publicity seeking environmentalists vs. Japanese fishing industry notorious for past deceit on everything from “scientific” whaling to illegal Tuna catches in our Southern Ocean fishery). Why do you want to take sides? They could both be at fault.
Just to be clear, a Sonar is an underwater detection device that can indicate the range and bearing to other ships (and submerged objects). It doesn’t sound alarms in above the surface air waves. That must be a loudspeaker or horn.
This is correct, the people on the Ady Gil actually identify it as a LRAD.
Either way this sound was a warning and you could actually hear it getting closer and closer with no efforts by the Ady Gil to avoid a collision, in fact they thought it was all just one big joke.
JV,
That’s it basically in a nutshell. If you are not trying to involve your vessel in a collision with another stationary (or near stationary) you don’t turn directly towards that vessel with water cannons firing in the direction of the vulnerable vessel and you certainly “don’t” keep firing them at the stricken vessel after you collide with it.
Whatever line the Japanese and their sympathisers try to take on the matter, the video evidence (even the Japanese footage) taken together is compelling and particularly damning!
I agree with Socrates
I am sure with such a fast boat, the protester could have gotten away if they really wanted to, and was not there to make a statement
I am sure the Japanese took great pleasure in watching the protesters in the water, if only they can harpoon the protesters for scientific research.
Both side got what they want
BTW
Does anyone know the name of the Ady Gil skipper?
scorpio
Yes, on the evidence I’ve seen now, I’d like to be prosecuting the Japanese skipper, or defending the Ady Gil skipper, or both if possible.
Boerwar
Capt Pete Bethune
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2010/01/11/120771_tasmania-news.html
Ray Charles wasn’t it?
I think TTH has in the past offered the reply you seek Boerwar.
I thought the Shona Maru’s skipper was Dick Cheney, doing a summer job in retirement.
Gary Bruce @ 555
*chortles*
jv @ 553
thank you
The more I look at the various videos the more I think that both skippers were at fault. The AG skipper because he accelerated his boat into the Shona Maru in a straight line and the Shona Maru’s skipper because he made a turn to starboard that put both vessels into dangerous proximity.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/roxon-deal-on-cataract-payments/story-e6frg6nf-1225817874126
Boerwar 559
That is my view too and I will hold it till I see evidence to the contrary. Neither party appear to have acted responsibly. It may be the Shona Maru is more at fault, but that doesn’t mean the Ady Gil is in the clear.
dovif
Interesting link. If both skippers are at fault then Gillard got it exactly right.
I am not overly concerned at who was at fault. The free advertising they got out of the incident was priceless.
I am taking a “Ron” non-academic reality view on this.
Boerwar
Yeah Gillard got it right … but it does not make her popular with either side
And yet the boats continue to come….
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/another-asylum-seeker-boat-intercepted-20100111-m1mv.html
4 Boats in 11 days during the Monsoon Season…. not a bad effort from the Rudd government.
Peter
But could it be that you and Ron together are YRONg?
As someone who innitially thought the SS lot on the ady gill were at fault, I will now demonstrate to a few posters here wha tit is like to make decisions based on evidence.
On evidence I would like to withdraw my previous comment about the cause. It was clearly the Whalers who were at fault, contributed to by the off guard nature of the Ady Gill.
There you are, it doesn’t hurt, its an admission that we can develop greater understanding and insight as we develop.
There are a few here who could do with a bit of growth, you don’t impress people by sticking to ridiculous and abusive positions.
Maybe the japanese thought that the Ady Gill had some refugees on board.
Well the Japanese don’t have a problem with boatpeople, despite being signatories to the Refugee Convention and being near many unstable countries.
Perhaps we could learn from them.
Get used to it TTH, everyone else has.
Weren’t you the one who was telling us the monsoon would stop the flood of boatpeople?
What happened to that little chestnut.
This will be the BIG ISSUE of the year. Australia will break 2001(Pre-Pacific Solution) numbers, heck we may even hit the Ruddock predicted 10G’s.
And yet the 50,000 people that have overstayed their visitors visas remain. It is not illegal to be a refugee, it is illegal to have overstayed one’s visa. TTH, why aren’t you concerned by the 50,000 illegals?
Nope, not that I recall.
Big issue of the year? BS. It wasn’t last year and won’t be this year.
What happened to debt and deficit and unemployment? Oh wait that’s all looking good for the government now.
We have been on this merry go round many many many many times before.
Please read the LEGISLATION on the matter here:
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/MIG/detention/report/appendixd.pdf
It is indeed NOT illegal to seek refugee status. It *IS* However to arrive in Australian waters without permission, without visa’s and without passports. Thats a FACT.
Boatpeople are therefore illegal arrivals.
Visa Overstayers are not illegal immigrants, as they entered the country LEGALLY, but then violated their Visa’s. This makes them Illegal Visa Overstayers, not illegal immigrants.
Have you guys seen the Agy Gil
The Agy Gil look like a while, so the Japanese through they would do some medical research on it
They proved that boat sinks, if they do not have airtight compartment
As as they have always proved that Whales dies when they are killed, and dead whale meat are edible
That’s bizarre TTH.
Overstayers have no legal right to be in the country. Asylum seekers who reach our shores do – provided they are seeking asylum, and only until and so long as a decision is made that they are a bona fide asylum seeker. At that point they are certainly a legal immigrant. When they are shown to be not a genuine AS their status is that of an illegal immigrant and appropriate action taken.
Overstayers are by definition illegal immigrants. They have no valid papers nor approval to be here.
Your post smacks of casuistry (in its perjorative sense)
dyspnoeia – Got it in one.
dovif
Its OK, this was a boat sinking in the name of scientific research (on buoyancy?)
Truth Hurts: Only you and the more conservative elements of the media seem to be alarmed about a few thousand boat people..the rest of us couldn’t give a toss!
hav read everyones posts , and there ar opposite experts galore But having sunk th only boat i was ever on i feel i can contribute something diferent , an unexpert opinon
1/ Anti Whaling got world publisity , so they ar delighted
2/ th japenese ship did ramm , ilegaly
3/ unknown queston to me is if Ady Gil made ANY contributon at all , however small , and guess a proper SEA Expert Inquiry using latest tech instruments ar th ones to determine that
4/ if th Ady Gil made no contributon at all per a SEA Expert Inquiry , and thy were delib rammed with 100% contributon by th Japenese Ship , then th Ady Gil crew ar STILL reckless not for th colison but reckless for enddangering there crew lives by being in th vinicity of “ADVERARY” Big Ships on th high seas where acidental colisons may occur (which is a diferent issue to being delib irammed & innocent of same)
Julia Gillards comments about both crews need to hav there peoples safety as priority I think picks up part of th line of my point 4/ “reckless “issue
evan14
you should give a toss, since Australia has a yearly fixed amount of refugees acceptance quota. Each one of the arrivals are jumping in front of people held at detention centers in Indonesia/vietnam/malaysia etc
Therefore we now have a policy of only allowing people who can pay illegal smugglers to come to Australia. While if you do not have money stay in your detention center for the rest of your life?
I would have through the progressive side of politics would have some issue with that
Boerwar (551)…Ok I will have guess…Captain Pugwash and 1st officer Seaman Steynes.
Somebody enlighten me… what danger to these boat people pose to Australia’s national security? Public health?
Sure, they’re a nuisance. But what’s the BFD?
Ron@580:
Nonsense. Every time you take your car on the road you are in danger of accidental collision. Check the newspapers sometime.
If that was the case, when we wanted groceries we’d all be holed up in our houses waiting for the delivery man’s horse and cart.
Kakuru
KRudd is right, we should decide who gets to come to Australia… not the people who is able to pay people to take them to Australia
Oh but we do decide who comes to Australia – either via the visa system or processing would be refugees on Christmas Island if they come via the people smuggler route
Unfortunately it’s not about what they claim when they get here… it’s the MEANS of getting here that is illegal.
Much like it’s not illegal for you to buy a chocolate eclair down at the bakery, but it is illegal for you to do 160km/h down the school zone and running over 4 kids on the way to the bakery.
These people are therefore illegal immigrants, they have violated Australian laws and legislation by not having the appropiate permissions, passports and visa to enter our waters.
“when we wanted groceries we’d all be holed up in our houses waiting for the delivery man’s horse and cart”
Don , but if you went for grocieries and took your own horse and cart , onto th freeway , that would be reckless
Ady Gil delib took there horse and cart right out of there way all th way to th South Seas
I feel there should be some responsibility I DID say th Ady Gil was delib ilegaly rammed but think thats a completly separate issue
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/MIG/detention/report/appendixd.pdf
Can someone please inform me what VALID VISA these boatpeople held when they entered our waters, and if they DON’T hold a Visa, how to the letter of the law, they are not illegal entrants nor unlawful?
Cheers.
Interesting that the Japanese have tried a direct attack on our Julia. The lowlives!!!
Her comments seemed reasonable to me. I have to admit i would have prefered her to call them for whale murdering scum who got their skippers tickets out of weeties packets and who we are going to crush like bugs when we get their idiotic position on “scientific whaling” into court, but i can understand that may have been seen as possibly a little over the top in terms of maintaining a sound diplomatic relationship.
Maybe, the Japanese stablishment that have been so commited to whaling have realised that this ramming may cost them much. If it does get to a court i think the Japanese whalers are so far in the poo its not funny. So, they go on the attck against a pollie that they know the Australian media wants to damage, desperatley hoping that she oe someone else in govt will say something unforgivable. Then they have an issue that they can use to distract from the fact that they rammed and caused the Ady Gil to sink.
I really hope that the Aust govt follows through with their promise of legal action this year.
TTH
You know you are quire correct on one point – asylum seekers do enter the country unlawfully. That is self-evident. But in the grand scheme of things, so what? Because once they are here Australia has a legal obligation to allow them to stay while their status is copnsidered.
Australia is legally bound by the Refugee Convention 1951 as a treaty obligation. Article 31 states:
“Interesting that the Japanese have tried a direct attack on our Julia. The lowlives!!!
Her comments seemed reasonable to me”
yes Imaca , very reasonable our Julia , and acurate She has made 3 points , all rite
One , BOTH crews need to make crew safety priority (which i’m suggesting does mean Ady Gil being reckless , and obvous Japenese Ship also)
TWO , th cause of colison she will wait for th proper Inquiry resultsd , and she is sensible to do that as D/PM (I’m saying th Japenese Ship did ilegaly ramm , and that th Inquiry will determine if Ady Gil contributed in any way at all
But Julie cann’t say that , instead she wants simply to wait for th full Inquiry result which is wise of her , and we’d all say that in her positon
THREE, Govt is not backing away from considering international legal case against Japenese for whaling on there BS science grounds
Ron@588:
Hardly a horse and cart, at $1.5 million a pop!
The reason it was there was because it can literally run rings around the whale chaser and Japanese security ships, it is a very fast vessel.
But even a Ferrari can be squashed if a bulldozer backs over it while the Ferrari is parked.
What you seem to be suggesting is that the vessels of the Greenpeace mob should all be larger than the Japanese boats, so they win the contest on sheer size and weight and bluff.
Instead, the rules of the sea should be followed – and the Greenpeace mob should not sit there with idling engines and wait to be run over, either. Any time they are in visual contact with the Japanese boats, there should be all hands on deck, and the possibility of collision taken care of.
The Greenpeace boats are all doing things which are inherently dangerous, like getting up close to very large ships (comparatively) so they should be well aware of prudent strategies for avoiding disaster.
I am glad they are hampering the whaling, but a bit of common sense instead of bravado would not go astray, and relying on the good will of the whalers you are pestering is very foolish.
Dys@591:
That is not my understanding. My understanding is that it is legal to be an asylum seeker, at least so far as Australia is concerned, and to enter a country under circumstances that normally are unlawful, provided that you are seeking asylum.
But there are plenty of others here who would know whether that is correct.
Its interesting to watch the longer vid taken from the Ady Gil just before it was rammed. From the point of view of the camera person, up until maybe 20 seconds before they were hit there appeared to be no danger of collision.
Yup they were being attacked with and LRAD, and the Japanese ship had both water cannon pointing off their starboard side. I was looking at it and thought that if i had been on the Adt Gil i probably would have thought that the Japanese ship was trying to pass alongside to give the Ady Gil a drenching. Then, about 16-20 secs before impact they change course. Allowing for reaction times, relaying orders to the helm and probably a substantial WTF factor i dont think there was any way the Ady Gil could have dodged.
Of course now that it is known that the Japanese will deliberatly run down boats in the southern ocean surprise wont be such a factor in subsequent rammings.
Im@580:
Here’s one version:
http://www.news.com.au/national/japan-attacks-julia-gillards-stand-on-whaling-after-ady-gil-crash/story-e6frfkvr-1225817941811
I agree, a low blow. But I wonder how it will be perceived by the majority of Australians?
Will they take the attitude that we should not annoy a powerful neighbour and trading partner, or will they say “How dare you!! Leave our Jules alone, you so and sos!”
On a somewhat different topic, something called the Arctic Dipole is being blamed for what is happening in Europe and the US. Basically, a high pressure system parks itself in the Arctic and this pushes cold Arctic air to the mid latitudes. There is some sort of index and the index is the mostest (or leastest) it has been since about 1950.
The interesting thing is that UAH satellite global temperature has the global daily near-earth temperatures at or near the highest (for this time of the year) over the last ten years.
The other interesting thing is that the Arctic sea ice extent is near the lowest it has been for the last thirty years for this time of the year.
You will notice the Denialists saying that the cold stuff in the northern hemisphere and the hot stuff here is weather, not climate. Quite right too. What you will not hear the same people say is that the global measuring systems are saying that the global temps are very, very warm.
imacca
What impressed me about the Ady Gil footage was:
1. How full of themselves the crew were.
2. How incompetent they appeared to be.
3. How they were bragging about having ‘forced’ the Maru from its zig zag course.
These klutzes were an accident waiting to happen.
Will be interesting to see how the politics plays out. I suspect that in the end both sides will play to their local constituencies publicly, and in private keep a relationship going till such time as things have resolved or blown over and they can publicly be friends again.
The MSM will of course portray this as a “TEST” of Julia G’s ability to handle diplomatic matters!!! Will be interesting if the Japanese get really snooty though. Will they endanger iron ore benchmark price talks?? It isnt a buyers market any more and thier economy while large is a basket case.
dyspnoeia
Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 at 5:36 pm | Permalink
TTH
“Australia is legally bound by the Refugee Convention 1951 as a treaty obligation.”
I’ve been there a week ago with TheTruthHurts quotng th 1951 conventon
His answer was its old , out of date
My answer , which he never replied to was that we signed th convention in 1951 , and that Th Lib govts from 1951 to 1972 , from 1975 to 1983 and 1996 to 2007 could hav legaly withdrawn ratificaton
Even Howard did not do so , so th Conventon legaly applies under inter law , today 2010
About your genuine queston i think Half Truths re ‘valid” visa’s , dyspnoeia answered that but i think you ar unconvinsed because of th word you used being a VALID visa is needed , and “VALID” is still ticking in your minds not undrstanding
so perhaps if you could look at it this way Half Truths as 4 or so step ladders
Boat people ar not ilegal assylum seekers
Boat people make an ilegal enntry as assylum seekers
Boat people claiming to be assylun seekers EVEN if making an ilegal entry hav a right under th Conventon (that howard did not withdraw from) to hav there status asessed to see if they ar fair dinkum assylum seekers , refugees
Boat people found to be legit assylum seekers per th Conventon defining a “refugee” have legal right to be granted refugee status and come here
Howard did follow this 1951 Convention and allowed far dinkum asessed assylum seekers (per immig Dept) to come to oz ex xmas island !!
Do you wish to chalenge that ? suggest not , as it is a fact
What howard did unhumanely was to abuse th rights (of later determind legal refugees) in th long Howard creatd gap time from intersepton of th boat until th imigraton dept actualy made a decison if they were legal refugees (those that were Howard let come to oz , those that were not so deemd , as WITH Rudd’s polisy , do not come to oz)
so issue of valid visas or not is irelevent , sorry there
so diff between Hopward & Rudd was not so much about accepting all demed legal refugees , but that Kevin Rudd changed th total polisys applicaton to be humane , from unhumane
Don 593 – Greenpeace are not involved with Sea Shepherd. In fact Greenpeace has been a critic of SS for their attempts to interfere with whaling ships.
Trouble is when Greenpeace had vessels down there observing from a distance and SS were getting right in the way of whalers it was SS which got all the publicity and subsequently probably most of the money and so Greenpeace has stopped sending ships as its an expensive business.
Someone raised the issue of insurance – would have thought insurance for SS would be hard to get. Getting the whalers to pay would be much better. And no doubt the funds will be rolling in with this sinking. The political economy of whale protests.
BW@598:
dosnt give the japanese any rights to ram them and sink thier boat though.
I’d agree they sounded a bit full of it, but then so do a lot of lawyers and bussinessmen when they are winding down after a long day, and they arent habitualy squashed by passing trucks.
I think it remains to be seen what an enquiry finds about their competance and i dont think some of the comments i have seen about that are really justified. It would be a pretty bizzare situation to find oneself in.
Ahhh, but one can dream…
imacca
Just because they are klutzes does not mean that they deserve to have their vessel rammed and sunk. True. Nor do we have to take them seriously when they are setting out to damage one of our most important bilateral relationships as means to achieving their particular non-democratically decided ends.
I look forward with trepidation to groups of Japanese protestors throwing themselves in front of Australian-crewedTtoyotas loaded with shooters on their way to the kangaroo killing grounds.
BTW, how do you read the words of the Ady Gil crew to the effect that they had ‘forced’ the Maru from its zigzag course?
z @ 603
lol
OK, I’ve been trying to follow the arguments on the sinking of the Ady Gil, and I think I’ve worked it out. There was a train, and a horse and cart, and some sea rabbits, and…
oh hell, has someone got the links/instructions for stfu?
Ron@588:” Ady Gil delib took there horse and cart right out of there way all th way to th South Seas”
Don #593 “Hardly a horse and cart, at $1.5 million a pop!”
Don , you brought up your examplr of a “horse and cart” delivering groceries ( and no VB’s by th way)
Now you up th ante on me , its a gold plated 1.5 million horsey and cart !
However your quote at end is getting us in similar ballparks :
“I am glad they are hampering the whaling, but a bit of common sense instead of bravado would not go astray, and relying on the good will of the whalers you are pestering is very FOOLISH.”
Agree Don it is def “foolish” , however I am even more critical calling it “reckless”
My fear is there hav been past incidents and close shaves , and maybe loss of Protestors life (accidental or nonaccidental colisons) is possible if th Ady Gil practise continues , so that is also why I tink th protesters ar reckless
And Wakefields post of critisism even by Greenpeace , not a quiet “left” mob themselves, indicates they hav th same view apart from there loss of publisity/donations
Why th protesters poor judged actons ar over shadowd I feel is th sheer brutal visuals of th Japenese Ships ramm actons , and i guess hard not to look at th protesters othr than as innocents , out for a Sunday stroll down to th Antarctic
poly,
It’s all summed up with the analogy of, “Don’t go too near the elephant’s bum. Because when it shits, it shits a tonne”.
I hope that helps.
There are a few letters to the Editor in the Tiser saying that the Australian Government is tolerating Japan fishing/whaling illegally in our waters.
They’re saying it’s the same as the Indonesian fishing boats but they are treated differently by the Govt. The Indonesians get deported and their boat burnt and the Japanese are touched.
Does anyone know what the story is?
And if the Japanese boats are illegally whaling in our waters and getting off scot-free, what the hell are we paying Truthy for?
Diogs,
The following provides some answers to your question.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/01/11/mungo-time-running-out-on-whaling-rudd-will-need-to-risk-a-blue/
Of course the Japanese ship deliberately targeted the Ady Gil. Their video cameras will feed back to Japan live, and they will have a sea-lawyer on call to give quick advice over radio/satellite.
The Japanese ship’s master would have been told: “Yes, they’re being dickheads, and we should be in the clear. See if you can really scare them…”.
I suppose the master now isn’t sure whether he was really lucky to actually catch the other craft, or just the opposite
if there is a protracted and embarrassing fuss, then the ship’s master may be tagged with responsibility for it (the embarrassment). You don’t want be Japanese when the other Japanese decide that something embarrassing is your fault.
But the incompetence and idiocy of the Ady Gil crew deserve to be held up to ridicule and contempt. There is not a ghost of a chance of the trimaran being caught by such a large lumbering craft unless they were amazingly negligent, or deliberately seeking an “incident”. I’m plumping for amazing negligence…
ployquats,
You nedd Firefox as your browser
You nedd to install the greasemonkey add-on
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/748
and you need the script
http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/63741
Need any more info?
GG
Thanks, I think that answers the ambiguity.
It looks like Australia say the water is our territory according to Australian law . Japan and almost everyone else says it’s not.
Even if it was, it is unenforceable as we never have any ships there.
Tony Abbott showing some common sense? Whodda thunk it?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/11/2789944.htm?section=justin
Diogs,
A bit like putting a flag on the moon.
My tomato plant got attacked by “something” overnight, and now it has hardly any leaves left. I think the prognosis would be “poor”. Who can I blame this unfortunate event on?
I’m not sure if this has been posted, with all the excitement about boats and whales, but the ANZ monthly job advertisement data for December was up 6% on November, and is now the highest it’s been for 31 months. It looks like unemployment may well peak about where it is now, just a bit south of 6%. A fabulous peformance by the Australian ecomomy. When people are in the polling station deciding how to number the boxes, surely job security will be a way, way, bigger factor than anything to do with whales, refugees or even climate change. Confirmation that Labor now really totally owns economic management as a political issue I think comes from the absence of serious attacks on the government on economic issues from the usual suspects on the right-the Libs and their supporters would rather talk about anything but the economy.
The gardener, PY! or if you want to, try Climate Change. Most grapegrowers would agree it’s making a difference. BTW ours are a bit ratty this year, too.
Wakefield@601:
Thanks very much, I didn’t know that.
Is sea shepherd a “single issue” organisation? i.e. they only “do” whales?
GG
A very interesting link.
Hunt knows this political bit of territory very well and has made several public statements that, broadly speaking, have been consistent with what the Coalition and the Government have been saying but not doing. Being in Opposition he can ramp the rhetoric/call for action up a bit. So did Labor when it was in Opposition.
Abbott is similar to Rudd on the natural environment. Neither particularly cares for it and both are ready to expend it on the altar of ‘Big Australia’ on the one hand, and ‘Strong Australia’ on the other. Hunt, on the other hand, does get the natural environment and cares for it (just like Garrett).
Nothing unusual about all of that. What is unusual is that the open split between Hunt and Abbott appears to be symptomatic that the Coalition has yet to get its policy discipline together at even the most basic levels. Hunt will go to Abbott with a view to seeking a workable public resolution, and will probably get it.
I had thought that Abbott would be a better team operator than Turnbull. But then again, maybe I was wrong.
The killer dolphins pissed on it.
PY @ 617
Just spent most of the day over at the-pale-imitation-of-crikey-blogs and I believe the correct answer to your question is “Kevin Rudd”.
Boerwar,
Hunt sold his soul to stay in the Shadow Ministry and he is now reaping the reward of contempt from those who agreed with him in the Party and contempt from those that are using his small L Liberal credentials for their own purposes.
You must remember this humiliation follows his repudiation of the ETS which he claims to have spent his academic careeer on developing. He must be one confused cowboy atm.
Finns,
Fine shot!
Zoomster@603:
For a dream sequence, click here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc
Guys,
What do you think Hunt would do if the party room doesn’t support the climate policy he is developing?
GG
You could be right. He would certainly have some Denialist colleagues who would have nothing but contempt for him.
But there have been plenty of pollies who have been forced into monumental backflips, or pretending to believe what they do not, because of changes of direction in their party. It is part of the territory.
blue-green
I would be fairly certain that they will because it will pluck a set of low-hanging fruit and give them a crack at reducing the damage at the next election.
I suppose though Boerwar, but I am just not sure it will squeak through cleanly.
GG@624:
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke.
Boerwar – he can’t be because he has to please Minchin and the RWers more than the moderates so there will be constant irritations between the two.
You’re right tho, they’ve got little option but to support whatever Hunt comes up with.
Abbott will be trying to mimic Rudd in a re run of the me too policy that was allegedly successful for Rudd.
There will be specific issues e.g. debt and the ETS is a new tax that Abbott will try and fight on as points of differentiation.
Whale boats in the Southern Ocean don’t rate as an issue of importance. Hunt will get to cry in the corner because it is all unfair.
Did you see Simon Birmingham and Hunt on twitter today.
Hunt: A busy day working on the Coalition’s Climate Action Policy with Simon Birmingham
Birmo: on way from hot Adelaide to hot Melbourne for policy planning with Greg Hunt
To me it was like two schoolboys working on their homework together.
Hardly the exhaustive garnaut, green paper, white paper, coalition amendment, legislation process of the government.
Blue Green,
It’s not called Climate Change Policy because the Libs have no intention of changing anything.
GG,
You are right about that.
What ever happended to the coalition talking about defence and national security (beyond boat people).
I cant even name their defence shadow!
GG
Australian governments of all stripes have had focus group after focus group tell them that lots of people like whales. A lot.
Therefore the governments have to play silly buggers with the whaling issue. All Australian governments play this silly buggers game. When in Opposition they play bigger silly buggers because Oppositions can afford to do so.
IMHO, it rates as an issue of importance because Australian governments think it is and are even willing to accept some collatoral damage to the relationship with Japan to demonstrate that they care, they really care.
In this issue, Abbott is focused inwards and seems to be aiming at reinforcing the Liberal rusted-ons. With his foray on whales, he is also undermining his story about being an ‘environmentalist’. This is the story he tells to demonstrate that he fair dinkum about climate change. (Green Corps, anyone?).
Abbott would have done better to shut up. Hunt clearly has the superior political instincts here. It will be interesting to see whether there will be any back-peddling by the Coalition on this issue over the next week or two.
Kersebleptes @ 612
Agree, however [...such a large lumbering craft...] is a bit off – that’s a whaler, a chase ship – very fast, very manouverable, very tight turning circle for her size and very powerfully engined for her tonnage. She’s a greyhound, not a large lumbering craft.
What can they say B_G. They stuffed up a lot with defence spending and now that Faulkner is in charge they won’t get too far telling porkies. He’ll have them for dinner.
National security – AS not much of a threat when we seem to be ‘apprehending’ them quite well. As for the rest we have to trust that the FP and other bodies have it well in hand. Rudd has put a lot of extra money into it so let’s hope it’s not for nothing.
In the long run you’re only as good as the people under you so we need tough Ministers.
On the whole whaling issue.
1. Australians hate seeing whales being killed.
2. We are suspicious of the Japanese
3. The Japanese will never give up whaling as it is a pathway to continued access to the worlds commons
4. We dont like hippy activists
5. However we are bit pieved that those nasty Japanese whalers ran over the scruffy hippies.
6. There is jack shit any of us can do about it. Rudd, Abbott, Hunt and they all know it.
7. Therefore it will be out of the news in a fortnight.
[bbott would have done better to shut up. Hunt clearly has the superior political instincts here. It will be interesting to see whether there will be any back-peddling by the Coalition on this issue over the next week or two.[
Old Barnaby was to the fore again today - spouting out about the Govt. doing nothing about whaling and upsetting the Japanese and then Abbott more or less contradicted him pretty quickly. Fun and games in the Oppn ranks.
BH
ah ha! Do you have a link?
Boerwar,
Abbott’s assessment is (imho) that there are zero votes in the “whaling” issue for the coalition and that the people who put him in the job have other fish to fry. Further supporting a bunch of ratbags who knowingly put themselves in danger and wish to jeopardise the commercial and diplomatic arrangements with our second biggest trading partner is never going to happen.
BH,
The coalition have been the ‘natural party of government’ at a federal level fo rthe last 50 years because of primarily a perceived strength in the economy and defence.
They have allowed Rudd to take superiority on defence and Barnaby and Abbott will lose them any shred of credibility on economic matters.
I am glad Rudd takes an active interest in Defence and I am sure the GFC put a serious dent in his plans for reform. Their team of Faulkner, Combet and Kelly seem very attentive and sound. I cannot say the same for the coalition.
BTW, was there ever a prize for correctly nominating Abbott as the winner of the OO neo-con brass ring?
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2009/07/25/morgan-575-425-7/comment-page-4/#comment-307710
No? Oh well, it wasn’t that hard to get right, Teh fart of Teh Nation is nothing if not predictable.
Another year passes and Sea Shephard get rammed again, its all so passe. Next year they will have a bigger and better Bat Boat and will do anything to get news coverage.
Maybe they can get enough donations to buy a Collins Class and torpedo someone. Tossers.
Boerwar – saw it on Sky News and SBS (I think) tonight. OH and I had a laugh at the time. Abbott’s comment was same as in the ABC link above. He doesn’t want anything interfering with Japanese trade.
Of course, Barnaby, publicly, couldn’t care less about that and the Chinese trade because he only cares about his audience.
When he stood out against the sale of Telstra I thought he might be a sensible bloke but he’s not showing much sight of it lately.
GG
Yeh. The question remains, though. Is Abbott right? Or is Hunt, Joyce, Garrett and a long line of Liberal Ministers all of whom had a view that there were votes in whaling?
I am sure that people like Minchin would like to see the Sea Shepherd vanquished and the Japanese allowed to harvest whales to their hearts’ content. But Minchin is nowhere near the centre of Australian politics.
Abbott has to persuade people that he will act on climate change. If he fails on that he is an absolute goner at the next election (which he probably is, anyway.) He has chosen to demonstrate his CC credentials by asserting that he has a track record as an environmentalist. His stance on whaling will not help him and will almost certainly reinforce the views of those who think he will not act on climate change.
It is interesting that the honorary legal and political adviser to the Sea Shepherd is the former Howard Enviro Minister- Ian Campbell
Boerwar,
It’s a no brainer. Abbott is right to be doing what he is doing which is mimicing Labor as much as he can without being arrested. You’re right that the Libs have no credibility on this isue and Abbott has clearly decided he isn’t going to waste time trying to change entrenched views.
Abbott obviously thinks there are more votes in things like interest rates, tax cuts and industrial relations.
Exactly B_G. But much of it has been found to be ‘smoke and mirrors’ especially during the Fraser/Howard years and then the last few Howard/Costello years. Lots of luck at the right time with the coalition, but it’s now Rudd & Co’s time.
Megalogenis’ piece this week was interesting. Even George can’t get a handle on the PM and seems to think the senior journalists are getting a raw deal and should be respected or somesuch. I say phooey. They didn’t earn a lot of respect during the Howard years with their coverups and compliance with him.
I love the PM playing with them. He must have been doing something right with the voters since 2006 and let’s hope it continues.
Do Sea Shepherd try to stop Norway and Iceland? They kill many more minke whales that Japan.
BH,
Pretty fair analysis of Meglogenis. Maybe he’s trying to play the party line, maybe it’s Stockholm Syndrome. Perhaps the answer to his dilemma is to talk to people outside his “Inside” crowd to find out why MSM journos and his Murdoch colleagues are derided with so much contempt.
Maybe the crowd is right.
He (Abbott) has chosen to demonstrate his CC credentials by asserting that he has a track record as an environmentalist.”
Who told abbott such a stupid stategy
Even if he was deemed by voters an environentalist , it does not follow he would be deemed to be strong on CC
voters ar not silly like many think , voters will judge Abbotts CC on his CC words and CC polisys , which will be clearly fluff and empty
his hope is his scare on th ETS tax works , but even there it will undermine his CC credentials by doing so by highliting how inefective lite his CC polisy is
Yes, BH, Mega’s argument was something along the lines of ‘politicians should communicate to the public through journalists’ – based on the out moded idea that the lumpen proletariat needs someone to explain the issues to them, because they’re too uneducated and unsophistocated to do so themselves.
He seemed to be implying that this kept politicians honest.
This ignores what we all know: that journalists don’t simply present the facts, or explain the issues.
Anyone who has been interviewed by the media or given their local paper some information, knows that whats goes out often bears little relation to what came in.
If politicians are trying to use new technologies to connect directly with the people, it’s because they’re tired of the story being twisted in ways they don’t want.
Of course, what pollies say and do needs to be scrutinised, and of course pollies are going to put the best spin on things they can (like every other human being on the planet) but for journos to believe that the general public can’t understand politics or politicians demonstrates they’re stuck in the mindset that everyone who reads their paper left school at 15.
Which is why, of course, they can’t understand why Rudd is so popular when they keep telling people he isn’t.
Not to the OO and many other journos, GG, and therein lies their problem. They are as much in denial as the Oppn about Rudd.
And ron – Abbott won’t be able to avoid the fact that either a carbon tax or ETS is inevitable. Will be fun watching him when Kev gets hold of him in QT and during the campaign.
BTW – did anyone see the bloke up the pole on SBS tonight? the local radio here was saying that a big crowd would be at his farm today but on telly the crowd looked to be about a dozen or so unless they’d dispersed by the time the cameras turned up.
And Spencer didn’t look too bad except he appeared to be pretty emotional. Time for someone to bring him down now.
Zoomster@655:
Not in this neck of the woods, Armidale NSW.
We often give stuff to the local papers, we send the text, we send the photos, and it comes out as sent.
Local papers here are very grateful for copy ready to go, copy and paste.
Suits them, suits us.
But put a reporter in between, tell them stuff, yes, it can come out badly garbled.
I’ve already shown the legislation which shows you to be wrong.
Seeking Asylum or not, they have illegally entered our waters.
Don
Have to admit I make shameless use of the eagerness of local papers for copy…it’s when the journo decides to insert themselves into the process that I get cranky.
Don’t worry, had very bad experiences locally in the lead up to 2007 – being denied the right of reply, ambushed, etc. The icing on the cake was when the local rag did a three page puff piece on our sitting member the Saturday before the election and justified it on the basis that it was to recognise their third year as local member!
BH,
I am a bit over the so called senior journalists at the moment. Half of them are acting more like lobbyist than journos (ackerman, colless, bolt, shanaham, milne) and the other half jujst dont seem to be with it. They misread the liberal leadership spill complelely. They thought 1. the party would support turnbull in the ETS 2. Turnbull would acquiesce to the party on the ETS 3. Turnbull would fall on his sword. 4. Hockey would comfortably be elected leader etc etc.
It seemed like only kelly and crabb came close. Many people followed the spill on twitter and skipped the printed press altoghter. Reading a paper that week was like reading something written several days ago from a vaguely parallel universe.
Do the same here, don, but only because they are short on journos and we get a better run if we supply the stuff. It just means a lot of time spent writing something different for each paper but worth the free publicity.
Same as you, suits them, suits us. Of course the stuff I have to do is not controversial so that makes a difference.
Zoomster – your 655 is spot on – they really do think that we can’t survive without them.
Check out that post earlier today here from the bloke at LP. He may not be correct in his assumptions on the whaling situation but it was darn good and would put a few journos to shame in its clear interpretation of the rules at sea.
I’m glad I’ve lived to see the social media get a foothold. It’s an education in itself and much broader than the Canberra Press Gallery’s incestuousness.
Journalism died the day Rupe ravaged fleet street.
we have descended ever deeper into the gutter ever since
Ginger Gillard is learning that when it comes to International politics words are dynamite.
[Many people followed the spill on twitter and skipped the printed press altoghter. Reading a paper that week was like reading something written several days ago from a vaguely parallel universe.
b_g Spot on. I never thought twitter could be so much fun. Only read it cos I have no idea how to participate nor the time to do so really.
The papers were exactly as you stated - it seem very outmoded/oldfashioned/whatever.
I don't know whether you were loitering here during the Grech fake email affair but the guys here had called the whole thing a fake ages before the MSM. In fact, I think it was even before the PM went on telly at 7.15pm. Now that's what I call fun too.
BH,
Apart from Diogenes who was egregiously wRong.
She has to find her inner Nemo?
BH,
I missed the grech affair. It would have been fun to watch- that was the breaking of turnbull yet the leadership spill was his making.
Crikey fills such a void- I just can’t reconcile anything Possum writes (based on detailed, sensible poll analysis) compared with shanahan, milne, van onselen etc- which seems to be made up from discussions they have together over a gin in some private Men’s club.
Hu takes another step into the future:
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/01/11/world/international-us-china-rio.html?_r=1&ref=global-home
We’ll forgive him tho, GG, because we are compassionate … sometimes!!
Early start tomorrow so ‘night all.
GG
You are very mean.
I looked at the text of the “email” and said it was a fake.
There may have been an injudicious comment before that.
I was too excited at the thought of having Gillard as PM.
Turnbull was good at the start and promising… but then his policies turned into Silver-Spoon Leftwing Rudd-lite Bullshit.
I think Turnbull forgot what party he was actually on.
Diogs,
Patience is a virtue.
2010 you get to redeem yourself??? Let’s hope.
TH,
I wonder why it is called the liberal party not the conservative party?
Interesting comments by Hawke on ABC Elders. Not happy about population growth or lack of action on climate change stopping the need to move to sutainability. But also saying we don’t have any leaders around today?
This coming from a person who supposedly voted for this ‘Silver-Spoon Leftwing Rudd-lite Bullshit.’ LOL
Diog, you MD will go for anything in Red.
Gary Bruce @ 675 – Just keep reminding yourself that TTH is a satirist.
GB
Do you mean The Truth Overboard?
also I find it amusing how people have an elastic and relativistic view of “left” and “right”. If Rudd is “left wing” for being to the left of Howard, then Robert Menzies was also left wing
When I read comment by TH I remind myself about a comment by Possum about the people who wrote anti-ETS emails to the libs during the leadership spill.
I think he called them not normal- in that they were more than 2 standard deviations from the mean.
Does that sum up TH? Is he more than 2 st dev from the mean?
blue_green @ 679 – I would have thought that TTH’s views are best modelled using the von Mises (aka circular normal) distribution, which is derived by wrapping a normal bell curve around a unit circle – with the interesting feature that if you go far enough to the right, you find yourself coming back on the left.
Pedant 680- you mean sort of like Hitler and Stalin- different underlying ideologies but same practical result.
Ron
if your still around.
I got an email from a mate in canada about the SSCS.
apparently the AG was doing some minor maintenance and checking that all the gear was stowed,rudder trim correct blah blah blah.
Effectively they were dead in the water.
Wakefield
Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 at 10:19 pm | Permalink
“Interesting comments by Hawke on ABC Elders. Not happy about population growth or lack of action on climate change stopping the need to move to sutainability. But also saying we don’t have any leaders around today?”
Hawke was brillant as usual , as was Andrew Denton , a fine interviewer
I think he was also implying a point i/ve made about populaton growth apart from World being able to feed 9.3 billion in 2050 , and that is pop increases make cc reducton very hard just itself
re leeders , apart from Hawke being on record praising Rudd , i got sense his coments about populaton and CC then followed about lack of leeders implied World stage lack of leeders
1/2 hour interview worth people seeing if repeated
Toothy is not a satirist. He is a dentist because he pulls things out where there is nothing else to pull.
Like I said earlier, “sitting ducks”!
Just in case we haven’t already done this topic to death, a post by Antony on possible election dates:
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2010/01/possible-federal-election-date.html
FINNS
“Toothy is not a satirist. He is a dentist because he pulls things out where there is nothing else to pull.”
thought Diogens was th Dentist , putting things (words) into peoples mouths
Scorpio
I reckon we should go hard on the japanese whalers over this.
It allows Oz to reassert control over the southern oceans,if not in fact, at least morally and legally.
Ron
Dio comes here for free pyschoanalysis courtesy of the house dolphin.
Finns should start charging the scheduled fee I reckon
Gus
#682
thanks for that info Gus That type of info verified affects an Inquirys view of any contributon
Notice no one comented on my post start today showing that th Daily Tele video (th one I looked at & comented to you on last nite where i said I couldn’t comletely tell cause) did show th Ady Gil own short verson video , BUT censured the critical first 3 seconds showing clearly th Japenese ship changing couse !
Given th now clear visual of Japenese Ship delib ramming , most ar not then ointersted in by unpopular sub text argument that th protesters boats hav “form” in reckless being too close to Whaling Ships , they appear not this time but i regard there presense in th same waters vicinity as a form of protest itself reckless , with sooner or later a death ocurring , by accident by either party , or from delib colisons
there actons also damage th peaceful protests by Greenpeace on mainland Japan directed at japenese voters
But fact they hav been delib ramed with video proof over shadows th fact thry were where i think they should not be in intersts of crew safety
Ron
A simple face saving solution for all
Ban all commercial craft and unauthorised vessels.Institute a permit system if needs be.
The safety reason alone would seem to make it elegantly suitable.
agree Gus
also about Diogenes
#
689
Gusface
Posted Monday, January 11, 2010 at 11:22 pm | Permalink
“Ron Dio comes here for free pyschoanalysis courtesy of the house dolphin.”
pyschoanalysis on him is quite slow , he is so far gone that recovery ma be dificult , as he claims he is “medically protected”
‘Ban all commercial craft and unauthorised vessels.Institute a permit system if needs be.”
But who would issue the permits and enforce compliance??
No-one would accept Australia as the issuing authority as it would legitimse our claim to the waters and by extension our territorial claims in Antarctica.
Japan to issue the permits? That would be a joke!
The international whaling commision? Maybe, but that body is so corrupt.
And, on what basis would the permits be issued? Might work if they had to go through an international peer reviewed process to justify the use of destructive sampling to obtain their “data”, but would more likely mean that there would be no permits issued and so the Japanese would never agree to permits in the first place.
Imacca
I am suggesting that Oz, in concert with NZ , become custodians of the southern ocean.
To the japanese, I suggest they have more “face” to lose than us.
Time for the Gvt to step up and show not just the japanese but the wider region that the southern ocean is off limits.
Maybe apply rule “Mk 48″ to permit violations??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beU3sExN1BA
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26578772-5005962,00.html
If the pope knew ANYTHING about science he would realise that homosexuality is normal in many species, not just humans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_homosexuality
Yes, Gusface, I agree it’s time for action.
And didn’t Paul Watson give that pathetic NZ foreign Minister McCully a serve to remember! The crew of the Ady Gil are all Kiwis. It’s stirring stuff encapsulated in the headline:
He also points out the rather significant beaches of international law by the Japanese:
And points out the glaring truth:
http://trak.in/india/mccully-gives-green-light-to-japanese-whalers-to-kill-kiwis/economy-49698/
Go you good thing Watson!
I say our ‘bilateral relationship’ will just have to withstand our doing the right thing to bring these lying, rapacious, arrogant, Japanese bastards – with no respect for cetacean or human life – to book. Let’s get the Oceanic Viking down there. We were going to in 2008.
JV
Although rarely totally on the same page with you,in ehis instance I am trally pissed off with the japanese.
Time for a bit of muscling up.
Howie was hoodwinked by the paper cherry blossoms.
japan is a second tier nation anyway or at least on course to be one.
Although loathe to draw comparisons,the pr guys in japan inc perhaps need to check their facts
http://www.au.emb-japan.go.jp/pdf/Statement_Regarding_Ady_Gil_Incident.pdf
Not Happy JApaN
In fact we should send the navy down to the southern ocean to ‘observe’ the whole show and police the international laws and Australia’s own waters. Should be safe enough. Japan is still banned from having a proper military of its own isn’t it, after an earlier arrogant unilateral imperialist adventure?
Sea Shepherd should buy a sub there’s lots around, and stick half a dozen torpedoes into the Jap fleet,I dont think anyone would miss them,the Japs could then spend the next 50 yrs denying they were at fault,bit like a rerun of the fact they still don’t mention WW2 and what they did.
On a very tangential point
NASA has a dedicated sat or two monitoring the antartic,also a few geostationary GPS sats.
The japanese are toast.
LOL!
Would be interesting to speculate on what the Japanese reaction to a succesful legal action against them may be?
If it gets shown before an international court that their “scientific whaling” is actually a bullshit cover for the commercial whaling they arent supposed to be doing, would they stop, or just flick the world the bird and keep on??
They certainly dont seem particularly worried about exceeding their allowed quotas on tuna for years, possibly endagering the fishery, and definitley hurting the industry in australia.
In a more immediate sense, what will their reaction be to a judgement against them as regards the Ady Gil ramming? Probably they will just ignore it unless they get denied port access in australia and nz as a consequence. Would be good to see that as it would have to make the whole exersise a lot more exoensive for them.
bugger: exoensive?? expensive.
Paul Watson has noted the WW2 analogy already:
Our navy apparently has been giving the Japanese whalers position to Sea Shepherd unofficially, but didn’t this year (Why not?):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/10/paul-watson-sea-shepherd-whales
Looks like this cove is NZ’s answer to Barbaby Joyce!
http://trak.in/india/mccully-gives-green-light-to-japanese-whalers-to-kill-kiwis/economy-49698/
from the horses mouth,so to speak
http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/ecorazzi
imacca
It seems the lawyers for Sea Shepherd are already looking at several courts around the world for various different actions. I can’t see the piracy one in Denmark getting up though. What would be wrong with our Federal Court for an action if the incident was in Australian waters? But I haven’t seen it mentioned yet.
It’ll be interesting to see what comes of this. It will certainly keep the heat on the Japanese and their whaling and generate a good deal of media coverage!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/10/2788935.htm
You have now!
The Fibs won’t be happy about this
Another one of their arguements against refugees blown out of the water.
scorpio
Yes, thanks, I have.
And I hope they do go through with it here. I would go and watch it and hope to see the Japanese skipper paraded into court.
It would help put pressure on our government to do what it once said it would. Imagine the navy being told this year to no longer help the SSCS with locating the whaling fleet, when the Japanese action is in a sanctuary against international conventions and agreements.
I saw something mentioned about this earlier. It could be a long year for the Libs if they can’t even get their policy position straight on even this issue!
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/libs-reverse-tack-on-calls-for-whaling-court-case-20100111-m2s1.html
Gusface
The Ady Gil skipper’s message as to what happened is totally consistent with the long footage of the collision. I think the Japanese skipper is in deep trouble, or should be, unless some sort of international revisionism of the event is achieved. Although it’s harder with the internet for cover-ups and obfuscation, thankfully.
This mob are getting priceless publicity for their campaign out of this. It could have been the Japs biggest booboo since they started whaling in the southern ocean! Nice little plug here for our Julia too!
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/sympathy-cash-pours-in-for-loss-of-ady-gil/story-e6frfku0-1225818122162
Coalition leader doesnt want to “needlessly antagonise” the Japanese?? Tosser!!
There is nothing wrong with taking action against the Japanese in an international court. Friends argue all the time, and if they are friends they work it out. If they cant then things cool off a bit, and adjudication of a dispute is a fair way to settle things. But if their other interests run together then they stay friends. Besides, the Japanese will know that the government here will be driven by public opinion and that seems to me to be pretty firmly anti-whaling. They must have seen this coming and the Ady Gil ramming could bring things to a head.
Anyone know of any reputable polling on that issue here or on Japan??
There’s a great photo at the point of collision here!
http://www.watoday.com.au/photogallery/environment/whale-watch/whaling-war-collision-on-the-high-seas/20100107-lvbf.html?selectedImage=0
Time for bed, night all!
No doubt he doesn’t want to upset Crazy Colin and the WA Libs with their Iron Ore Experts – I wonder if there any major Japanese Industries/Businesses who are Liberal Party Donors ?
“Australian Acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard – who has been accused by Japan of inflaming public opinion and making diplomatic resolution of the whaling dispute harder to realise”
Well the Japanese have been pretty much intrasigent so far in finding any “diplomatic resolution” havent they, so what the ##$% are they complaining about now!!
I still reckon they are hoping that Julia G makes some remarks that they can get even more sniffy about so that they can confect some diplomatic incident that they hope will distract everyone from the fact that they are running around the southern ocean shooting grenades into whales and running down the boats of those who object.
Hmm, so they are waiting for Julia Gillard to make some majo, fatal mistake?? May be waiting a while gents. Fiberals have been waiting since since the end of 2007 and it hasnt happened yet.
What argument is that, that there are terrorists onboard?
I think you just proved that point genius.
Time for Labor to apologise to Ironbar Tuckey me thinks.
You Labor Hacks should start your own washing machine company…. with this much spin, how could you not!
Here something Brownwyn Bishop just wrote on Punch. I guess its OK to be publicly associated with outright racists now in the Liberal Party.
There had been much anticipation, dare I say trepidation about this production and the Soprano engaged to sing the title role. …. that Tosca was to be sung by a young black American led to chat in the ladies’ loo prior to the performance that some may not stay past interval.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/garrett-sings-from-wrong-song-sheet-on-copenhagen/#comments
I Agree TTH – surely the four tamils that have attracted ASIO attention help support the need for border securityty
MrS@725:
Philip Adams, the ABC interviewer on Late Night Live, had an extensive ASIO file, as did, if memory serves, Gough Whitlam.
Attraction ASIO attention means the same as being investigated by any organisation, from the CWA to the CIA – just that, no more, no less. We still have the presumption of innocence until a guilty verdict is brought in.
Another political power couple have suffered the barbs of outrageous fortune, this time in Northern Ireland.
So if sexual monogamy is a required quality for political success, why do so many power couples fall at its altar e.g. Clinton, Della Bosca and now Robinson.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/11/northern-ireland-peter-robinson-quits
Amigo Ronnie, yes, Diog and Toothy do complement each other. One puts it in and the other pulls it out. And yet they say life is not perfect. huhhhhhh. Where is the life we have lost in living? i ask.
The ABC confirms four MV Oceanic Viking occupants have been rejected on security grounds:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790114.htm
I think this is the right approach – follow the law and respect people’s rights. The refugees were entitled to a determination of their case. That does not mean they get whatever they want. Those with serious criminal records in Canada or other countries were no more entitled to settlement here than criminals from any other country. Amanda Vanstone and a few Italian mafia figures aside, we don’t usually let them in.
Truthiness 723
Apologise to Tuckey for what? The way the mental health system has failed him?
This is too funny. Sarah Palin has landed a spot with Fox News!
http://www.smh.com.au/world/sarah-palin-signs-up-as-political-commentator-for-fox-news-20100112-m35u.html
I love this brilliantly satirical attempt at self-parody by Palin:
I woudl laugh if this dropped Fox’s ratings. There are still a lot of Republicans out there who resent Palin for blowing the campaign.
Finns
I only put words into people’s mouths to make them eat them.
Hi All,
I am planning a holiday for the NSW school holidays which run from Sep 24 to Oct 9, however I dont want to be away when the Fed election is held.
What is everyone’s opinion on the likely election date? I know there has been lots of speculation about August or September. Are elections often called in school holidays?
Thanks in advance
Beside Punch being the Fibs internet organ,I found the article funny .
Bronny’s Photo is from the 50′s and so is her commentary.
Sadly they forgot to include Bronny’s theme song
“The Old Grey Mare aint what she used to be”
The Times takes a tongue-in-cheek look at Mrs Robinson.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6984110.ece
And the words of the Simon and Garfunkel song seem almost prophetic in hindsight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pH8UVde7YM&feature=related
For those of us who survived the US election, Mark Halperin has published a book on it and it looks great.
Palin is mentally unstable (well we knew that already).
Bill and Hillary are dummy-spitters and blame the media for Hillary losing.
And Obama is the big winner as he maintained calm.
A true leader and a worthy winner.
Benji
Antony green has an excellent analysis of the possibilities here:
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2010/01/possible-federal-election-date.html#more
My money would be on August. I doubt there will be a DD unless the Senate right-wing nuts block more legislation.
For a more defininte answer I suggest you ask Kevin Rudd. Please tell us all if he gives you a definite answer.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/behind-the-meltdowns-on-the-campaign-trail/story-e6frg6z6-1225818198289
Diog, the Chinese has a saying: “you want the horse to be good and yet you dont want the horse to eat well”. So keep feeding them.
For the fawning disciples of PM Rudd, the words of the author of the song “Mrs Robinson” may have some relevance:-
“We need heroes, and we search for candidates to be anointed. Why do we do this even as we know the attribution of heroic characteristics is almost always a distortion? Deconstructed and scrutinized, the hero turns out to be as petty and ego-driven as you and I. We know, but still we anoint. We deify, though we know the deification often kills…..”
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/09/opinion/the-silent-superstar.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
Diog, the beatification of Obama continues, but meanwhile back at the ranch, the rubber is hitting road.
If he cant fix the economy and the wars, just make sure that he aint got thrown under his own proverbial bus.
Finns
Im sure Hilary will be driving
What I find a bit disturbing in some of the posts here is the some of the pre-war rhetoric, references to torpedoes etc, and references to how the last war isn’t finished, really, until we have succeeded in making the Japanese fess up about it all.
There are aspects of Australian military behaviour in the last war that do not bear closer examination. We haven’t acknowledged this. Glass houses. Naturally the details are hard to get to. But here is some footage of Japanese lifeboats being strafed from the air because ‘they didn’t surrender’. There is other footage of the same battle involving Australian aircraft strafing Japanese lifeboats.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVLV67xILI4But some of
Some of the rhetoric in this blog is replete with axiomatic ‘Japanese bad’, ‘Australia good’ thinking.
If you think it does not really matter, and that most of it is tongue in cheek, I suggest you read the sort of trash war talk that preceded, for example, world war 1 and see where that got several tens of millions of people in the end.
My suggestion would be to cool it on the war talk.
Finns
Fortunately the wars are Billary’s problem. And Billary won’t be driving the bus anymore.
And thank God we didn’t get stuck with that featherweight dickweed Edwards.
Peter Young #727
Is it? Since when? Honestly? Since when did the criteria for fitness for govern become private sex-life not leadership abilities?
In the UK – unless it was blatant & involved the shady underworld of Commie spies (eg the Profumo scandal) since Fleet Street tabloids turned grubby in the hope of greater profits and eds & the personal spite of jurnos who, in a fairer world where other public victims, inc pollies, could get their own back, would follow “people in glass houses” advice. When I have trouble thinking of A Tom Cruise saving grace, I remember he takes on MSM scandal-mongers & beats them!
In Oz, only very recently. Bob Hawke, Billy McMahon John Gorton, Harry Holt, Ben Chifley (& others before them) weren’t monogamous and most of us enjoyed gossip the MSM were too afraid of writs to publish. I doubt even Billy was diminished by the gossip (his ineptitude was another matter!); the rest were the opposite of harmed by it. Rudd’s appointment of Penny Wong, Julia Gillard, Bill Shorten, Greg Combet – despite screams of rabid “moralists” and innuendo of RW media – will hopefully break the current “spiteful media” cycle; though with this Silly Season’s pandemic Rudd Gov Bashing, I doubt it.
In the USA, since RW god-botherers gained control of the GOP & government (before then, it was almost expected – eg JFK, Ike & his driver, Elinor Roosevelt … quite a few others).
And of course the creative juices of the you-tubers have been flowing (or perhaps spurting) for Mrs Robinson:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRwTj6iXnSI
PY @ 746
ripper
The Finnigans
At least his hospital care afterwards will now be covered.
The Kid is going OK, given the corrupt, beholden legislature he has to contend with. The health care changes look like making it, even though not in the original form, but
James Surowiecki in the New Yorker for one thinks they are well worth having, in a good summary:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2010/01/04/100104ta_talk_surowiecki
After 40 years of repeated failure on health care reform, this will be a monumental achievement for Obama.
Abbott is going to introduce a private member’s bill seeking to overturn the Qld wild rivers legislation.
Apart from trying to regain the fed seat on the Cape (I think), there is now enough evidence for there to be a pattern on the environment.
He is jettisoning any real hope of swinging Green votes into the Coalition. He is also most likely already jettisoning any reasonable hope of getting Green preferences. He is playing with fire on the Doctor’s Wives.
He is going full out for small business/regional votes.
Finns
His biggest achievement is health care.
Obama’s biggest fail is hanging around in Afghanistan.
His second biggest fail is maintaining a military budget that is breaking the US economy.
His third biggest fail is not fixing the system that generated the GFC (which I do not believe is over).
But apart from that, he seems to be hanging in there OK. What else can the Pres really do in the US?
[His biggest achievement is health care.[
BW & JV, is that locked in? i dont think so, it still has to go back to Congress and then back to the Senate.
i heard the Nov mid term election, the Dems will not be able to maintain the 60 senators.
#745
I think you missed the point of my original post, which was confined to “power couples”, rather than individual politicians.
However, in the case of Iris Robinson, it has another dimension. Her publicly held views that homosexuality is worse than, or at least as nearly as bad as, child pedophilia, makes her own sexual conduct a matter for public scrutiny. In addition, her affair, may have involved a misuse of authority in relation to the raising of $50k “loan”.
The other point about these power couples is that they often campaign on the basis of their relationships, often with happy snaps of spouse and children (the use of innocent children in political advertising is another subject altogether) in campaign dodgers. Sublimal messages to the electorate which are at odds with reality.
I am not concerned about the actuality. It is the hypocrisy.
Finns
The health bill could still go down, even as watered down as it is. Reminds me of a similar bill…
Finnigans
Yes, still a way to go, the two versions from Congress and Senate are yet to be reconciled. But it seems the work is being done in congress, and a deal looks likely to be struck in the end, although there are a couple of elections coming up which could derail things:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/11/health.care.preview/
Is there anything which can’t be corrupted?
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26579221-12428,00.html
Finns
Dio and JV are right.
OK, so no real achievements yet, only FAILs.
BW
He hasn’t done anything bad though. That’s half the battle. It’s a tough gig reforming the US after 8 years of Bush. It’s going to take him eight years to get on top of it all.
#755
No there is nothing which can’t be corrupted.
However, what is important is that the corruption be exposed – rather than swept under the carpet or just explained away as part of the “human condition”.
Dio
I agree. I wouldn’t be condemning Obama for having achieved nothing much. The US system of governance is close to paralysis.
He can only get his CO2 stuff in by having it declared a pollutant, ie, through bypassing Congress and the Senate.
Will Kevin Rudd take responsibility if there is a terrorist attack by one of these boatpeople he lets in, or will he skirk responsibility as he always does?
He comes.
He shouts.
The impenetrable cliffs of ignorance
echo his words.
‘They hear me
They hear me!’
#760
Oh I get it. Because these Tamils belong to the ‘tinted peoples’ they are pre-disposed to terrorism.
If these were Icelanders fleeing their nation’s economic meltdown in Viking longships, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Why is it TTH that you tell us you voted Labor at the last election but everything you say here is straight out of the Liberal handbook?
And the camaign by the Daily Pornograph continues against KK. Now they’re blaming her for Iemma’s broken promises.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw-act/oh-kristina-what-a-place-for-a-holiday/story-e6freuzi-1225818256255
camaign = campaign
The Senate is part of the Congress. When you say ‘Congress’ you mean ‘the House (of Representatives)’.
J-D
thanks
On TTH’s ‘views’ – Remember Alf Garnett:
“Do you know why there are foreign countries? eh? EH? For all them foreigners to live in, that’s what! Eh? EH?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOhXpmozpbE&feature=related
J-D
Yes, quite right, the House is currently considering the Senate’s amendments to the orginal bill. It won’t be easy, but the various Democratic Party factions seem to be working through it so far.
What does Morgan have in common with the Afghan Centre for Socia and Opinion Research?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6984257.ece
Obama could work like a bastard for eight years, using unprecedented charm, vision and intelligence/cunning; he could even have mostly good luck during those eight years
and he would still fall short of the incredible expectations heaped upon him by his (often hysterical) supporters during 2007.
I envy his capabilities, but not his situation…
On the subject of the Health Care bill in the US Congress, I think it will finally pass- but that there will be some unwelcome surprises in its fine print.
Ahhh leftoids…. to them it’s always about racism.
How the bout the fact they burn their ID papers so we have absolutely NO IDEA who they are?
Heck Osama could come to Australia if he just got a shave and jumped on a leaky boat.
I await with interest guidance on shaving off a nose like bin Laden’s…
or jumped on a plane, with false papers provided by people smugglers, as several hundred do each year. But he would get preference over the boaties, with the luxury of access to lawyers, and appeal rights, because of the current discriminatory policy appeasing xenophobes, such as some people you might even know yourself.
#764 – Gary Bruce
I don’t see a problem with the proposition that NSW Labor is bound by its promises at the 2007 election, made through its then leader Morris Iemma.
I am surprised that you appear to be offended by the suggestion it is.
“Ahhh leftoids…. to them it’s always about racism.”
I just don’t see why boat people = potential terrorists. Why doesn’t your equation also extend to foreigners who arrive by plane? After all, that’s the preferred route for most terrorists (including that Nigerian undies-bomber).
I have a low opinion of boat people. But I won’t go so low as to suggest that they are more likely to commit acts of terrorism.
Finns: “BW & JV, is that locked in? i dont think so, it still has to go back to Congress and then back to the Senate.
i heard the Nov mid term election, the Dems will not be able to maintain the 60 senators.”
A healthcare bill will be passed. There is a mechanism whereby most of it could be passed with 50 Senate votes. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_(United_States_Congress)
Bush used this to ram through his tax cuts when a filibuster was threatened. The Dems will run in November on healthcare, and in the event they end up with less than 60 votes they will argue a mandate to pass their bills. The bills will probably be strengthened in a reconciliation process because grandstanding “centrists” will not be able to hold the 55 sure votes to ransom.
You’re not that naive Peter. You know very well this is a beat up against KK. No matter where she went they would have beat up the same thing. For heaven sake she is on holiday. Isn’t she entitled to be left alone?
Also, there appears to be a lot of getting hooked by a fishing Akerlyte going on round here.
By the way Peter I knew out of all our PB friends you would respond to my post. The man that has it in for KK. Even called his dog after her.
“i heard the Nov mid term election, the Dems will not be able to maintain the 60 senators.”
Yes, it it’s likely that they’ll lose seats in both houses. A lot of tough races ahead, and the Dem’s watermark was very high at the last two election cycles. The landscape might improve for the Dems as the economy improves – but it may not be enough to stave off significant losses. The Dems are already factoring in a loss of 20+ seats in the House later this year. Already one Dem house member from Alabama has defected to the Republicans.
He has unhealthy obsession with her – I’d suggest he seek professional help. Oh and expect the Gay related video attack.
Absolutely.
#779
My dog is very pretty. She is also very obedient.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter124u/4253291998/
Getting hooked, pancho?
Nah, he’s just having his bait stolen…
Well there’s an easy answer to that
783 – Exhibit A Frank. Say no more.
But has she had her First Communion?
Obviously Peter you enjoy a good bitch.
Obviously Peter you enjoy a good bitch.
I didn’t think you could post the same post twice on here.
Trothy,
YOU cage cage rattler you. When One Nation got up and running and they won 10 seats in the QLD parliament they got a good vote up in north Queensland. Did you vote for them by any chance??
By the way your bile bears an irony. A ‘voice in the wilderness” you are as the title of this PB is Morgan: 57-43 to Labor. LOL.
You need us leftoids dont you!!
It’s a miracle, Gary. You must have some of St Kevvie’s clothing pinned to the back of your gravatar!
Looks like Obama isn’t too bad actually
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122436116
And expect same to be snipped as quick as a vet would on said pooch
Which reminds me of this Sting B Side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv12vFNMjeE
I think Obama will come away from office with two undeserved reputations: some will say that he changed too much too radically, and some will call him a “big-talking do-nothing”.
#787
No Although she nearly had her first congress, but that problem was fixed by the vet.
Any bitch of mine must be an atheist, And so she is.
Maybe Mr. Bolt can explain this away for us.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/noughties-driest-decade-in-vic-on-record-20100112-m3qd.html
Believe me I understand, Peter, and fully sympathise.
However, I must disabuse you
your dog has a very deep and touching faith.
She worships The Kitchen.
You’ve gotta love these holiday reporters. What number lies between 16 and 17?
That’s the WEATHER, not the CLIMATE!
No doubt a typo as they meant 18 – unless the Police Media Release said the same thing.
#799 Gary Bruce
16 years and 5 months.
Thankyou Mr. B, now explain why the extreme cold in the Northern hemisphere is not the weather but the climate therefore showing climate change is bunk.
GB 797
It is because of those damn commie, left-wing clouds! 2009 was the hottest year ever in Adelaide and again, it was a conspiracy by the sun, a known Green activist.
[You’ve gotta love these holiday reporters. What number lies between 16 and 17?
It could mean BETWEEN those ages.
In S.A. that is how the law works, there are different offenses depending on the age.
Correct but legally we still see that as being 16.
#806
Bull emissions. You are talking sheer crap.
GB 803
Simple logic – just as one good poll for the coalition is indicative of a genuine change of voter sentiment and a string of bad polls are merely a Rudd honeymoon period, so too a lot of data over severla years suggesting climate change is just random flutter, while one cold week in Britain is proof that the opposite is true. You know its right.
PY is correct in that between 16 and 17 there sre the ages of 16 & I month etc. Shows, are you saying in SA they break the ages down into months? Ie for example something is illegal at say 16 and 3 months but legal at 16 and 6 months?
Ah, abuse. Please explain.
PY please provide examples where under NSW law regarding sexual conduct they distingush in monthly increments.
#809
Simple. Offences – often sometimes defined as between 16 and 18, but sometimes between 16 and 17, simply means the victim at the time was over the age of 16 (chronologically) and under the age of 17 (chronologically). Is that too difficult a concept for you to grasp or were you just having a cheap shot at a working journalist?
#811
There are none that I know of. However see #812 in answer to your stupid question.
Peter, I was being serious. I now see what you mean and what that article was getting at. You are right. I thought they were referring to a law but got the age bracket wrong. You’re childish inane reaction describes beautifully what type of person you are.
You’re = your
GB please read – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Thanks Winston. Every now and again I like to have a bit of fun. I know it’s wrong and not good for my blood pressure but, hey, what better way to pass a hot day than to do some feeding at the zoo on the computer.
We’ll put it down to the weather.
#814
Very perceptive. Glad to see you only express your perceptions of me, and not of other posters like Frank Calabrese.
Tony Abbott has found himself another “bandwagon” to climb aboard which is as far away from the economy and CC as he can get.
How he thinks he can scramble a few votes out of this I don’t know! An interesting comment here from one of Troothy’s mates. They don’t accept the democratic right of Australians to elect the government of their choice. If you don’t like the choice of the majority, then just overthrow it!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/abbott-shows-the-way-after-a-grubby-deal/comments-e6frg6zo-1225818212731
Sounds like another childish reaction. “You’re pickin’ on me. What about Frank?”
#821
Pffffttttt……Next please
You see, this is how we protect ourselves from those horrendeous “Third World” boat people. We build a big fence around Australia!
http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-to-fence-itself-off-from-egypt-20100111-m2pv.html
I think I’ve got a handle on where Abbott is heading with this. Tying in with his other visits to Cairns, I think he is working on a margin electorates campaign (Leichhardt being this one) and will be pushing local concerns and issues in each one.
The big picture issues which the Coalition are vulnerable on will be sidelined and overtaken by a swag of issues specific to each marginal electorate that they think they may win and might be able with work to hang onto those they already hold!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790134.htm
a few facts would not astrey here , instead of revising hisary
We ar th lucky Country , thanks in part to Labors Whitlam bringing in UNIVERSAL Healthcare
Th US does has a crap Health sytem and not hav Universal Healthcare
Bill Clinton Democrat had th guts to campaign for it , won electon , and put a Bill for Universal Healthcare in 93/94 , his weak Dems Congress killed it
Come 2007 , after th corupton of democracy by Bush th moment was there to get universal Healthcare , us voters wanted a change , from Bush
Edwards & Hilary campaigned FOR Universal Healthcare (and FOR suporting CC Kyoto mark 11 ratificaton) Obama
Obama did NOT , not for universal healthcare , and not for suporting CC Kyoto ratificaton
this is what ocurred so obama desciples still spin here 1/4 truths
Had Obama had th guts to campaign for both , then given his lanslide in 2008 , would Congress a 2nd time say no to Universal healthcare , and to CC Kyoto ratificaton I think not , but we will never know now
What actualy Obama campaigned on was not these priority issues at all , but simply a “general” message of “change” Anmd voters did want “change’ , change from George Bush Obama was elected as President Non Bush
This is a welcome “change” itself Those Obama messaiah lovers will be satified with that alone , will not care about substanse and be happy alone with his continued brillant oratory
But Obama will be judgd by most on substanse , and results Mainly th econamy , iraq , afghanisatan , israel , renditons , “war” (“war” is now what Obama calls it now) on terror , healthcare , “change yes we can” as Obama promised th Washinton lobyists & porkbarrelling “influense”
Thats 8 things , for th non disciples to asess over time , not pretty words
Of th 8 , 6 of them to be fair need time to asses , only 2 can be judged now , renditons & healthcare
Bush’s renditons , Obama has maintained , fail there
Healthcare , well th new Healthcare bill will pass , there”s already about 9,000 ermarks (favors in it total 1/2 a billion) it does NOT provide universal health care
Howard Dean , immedit past DNC Dems Pres and a key leeder of US “Progresives” facton says dump it , it is crap
but Obama regretfuly did not campaign on healthcare “Universalty” anyway !
I think it is an improvemnt on th existing crap US health sytem , it is now going to be a 1/2 crap US health sytem Obama and curent Dems congress ar not a Whitlams shoelace re healthcare , thank gods Whitlam was an aussie
Supporting the Brethren to the tune of $70m for “education” is a disgrace.
More like $70m in support of poisoning young brains!
Ron
You nailed it with respect to the health care mess in the US.
#826
Yes.
Dr Kaye, NSW MLC has done a lot of work on this subject.
PY @ 828http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/maralynparker/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/the_education_department_has_lost_control_of_our_public_school_classrooms/
The guy is right on the money. Such pernicious incursions are dangerous.
Can I presume this is to what you refer?
Ron
Obama has done as well as he could with heathcare reform which is a mess.
Remember the horrible death that HillaryCare died?
I think about 97% of the population is covered depending on what deal they end up with.
Sorry – fingers got mixed up with the stupid touch pad!
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/maralynparker/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/the_education_department_has_lost_control_of_our_public_school_classrooms/
I heard on the radio that Roxon is banning Health Dept employees from smoking during work hours but I can’t find a link.
The Civil Liberties guy Gorman said it was discriminatory etc and should be overturned.
I agree with Roxon. Why is the tax payer paying these people to smoke?
Roxon has also come up with a compromise about the cataract rebate. Instead of cutting it by 45%, it’s going to be cut by 15%.
#832
So they are gunna be “banned” from having a puff during their breaks. I don’t think so.
Ron,
One thing you are missing with your critisism of Obama in not taking advantage of his electoral success is that it was only about three months ago that the Senate seats were settled which gave him his Democrat majority in the Senate.
The Repubs had all that time to do as much damage and as much lobbying as possible against the health care bill.
I’m sure that Obama would have taken full advantage earlier if he could have but the Senate numbers to allow an unimpeded bill through just weren’t there. He needed a 60% majority to get it through without being filibustered like what happened to Bill Clinton which led to it being dropped!
PY
That’s what I was trying to find out but I can’t find a reference. I doubt they could stop you doing it during a rostered break.
quirky historical fact
Universal healthcare was first advocated by then US surgeon general Rupert Blue (1912-1920)
He also advocated for Universal Pasteurisation of milk-which happened.
ps he also stopped the San Francisco Bubonic Plague
Diogenes
Here is a link to a newspaper article
http://www.smh.com.au/national/health-department-bans-staff-smoke-breaks-20100111-m2si.html
Diog
our local hospital has banned smoking on hospital grounds. Staff have to totter off to the nearest footpath to have their puff.
WANTED: New Home for 4 Tamil Tigers.
Have many skills including setting up and exploding IED’s, firing Anti-Tank missles and trying to overthrow democratically elected governments.
Hobbies include long cruises on P & O ships, burning identification papers and blackmailing weak kneed governments into submission.
Willing to give away, or trade for a working illegal immigrant policy.
Please Contact Kevin,
Canberra House 2600 ACT.
Thank yous
Looking forward to reading Game Changer:
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=1DB86A27-18FE-70B2-A8A1FCF1283F819F
PY & Diogs
I don’t know if the article from this morning’s Age is online, but it indicated that the proposal was to prevent “smoko” breaks. The article specifically said that employees would be able to smoke during meal-breaks.
This, from abc online which is about the reaction to the proposal seems to confirm my inference from the age.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790269.htm?site=news
Well the article says it doesn’t apply to break times.
The argument seems to be about whether workers should be allowed reasonable ciggarette breaks during other times. The argument about addiction is put forward to support the continuation of allowing smoking during “on-hours”.
A cigarette smoker I know is always crapping on about how unfair it is….coffee drinkers can stand around for “hours” at the cafe bar, but he isn’t allowed to take a few minutes for a ciggie. Or gossip merchants can discuss the latest goss…without penalty.
I see Pegasus has beaten my slow typing fingers.
Thought I’d get a quick one in before the long winded rambler that’s no doubt in the post. The US healthcare bill won’t be a patch on what Australia has. For all the failings of the system here, it stands up pretty well, comparatively. But before it goes to conference, the Senate bill will:
- Provide over subsides to working folk of up to about 10K per year
- Cap out of pocket expenses to about 20% of an annual income (currently up to 70% for those covered, and unlimited for those not)
- Increase the Medicaid threshold from 100 to 133% of poverty
Lots of things still suck, but the system is a basket case that Democrats have been attempting to unsuccessfully reform for 60 years. To quote a recent political titan, “There’s more to do, but we’re heading in the right direction”. (Was that it?)
Poss that sounds like silver screen type intrigue. Mysterious with more than a hint of slapstick! Can’t wait…
When Hillary tried that in 93/04, Obama was still in his nappy at 24 smoking dope. How many times a major reform got thru first time around. Hawkie/Keating tried GST and got nowhere but it opened the door for Howard later and claimed the credits for introducing the GST.
Same thing here. Hillary should be given credit for pioneering rather than criticized by One Eyed Jack like Diog
Obama is benefiting what Hillary has pioneered.
Pancho – it’d make a cracker of a film! Though, to cover all the conspiring properly, would probably need to be a 13 part series!
Do public servants just get one meal break a day (for lunch)?
In the public circus,I understand the whole day is one lazy lunchbreak.
“lunch” is just a wave on an otherwise endless ocean of ennui.
From Poss’ link:
So what is the problem then. Afterall, they are all politicians seeking 50% + 1. If Obama cannot solve the US economy malaise and the wars, game is over for him.
Possum – #840
WOW – thats powerful stuff.
Possum – #840
WOW – thats powerful stuff.
Finns
admit it.you love Barry.
Diogenes
“Remember the horrible death that HillaryCare died?”
misleading posters here again , with one liner “spin” posts
Bill Clintons health care Bill was a “universal” health care Bill , so you talk crap
Diogenes
“I THINK about 97% of the population is covered depending on what deal they end up with.”
What you “think” is what you make up
Obamacare is mailnly run by employers , not th Govt , Insuranse is mainly given by Private Insuranse providers , not th Govt
97% ? crap also Th Dems (Reid) themselves only “claim” 94% 31 million , which prob is dubous until we see th detail
but th independent census states 47 million , thats cover for 85% only ,thats over 15% not covered , ….then there ar a further 15 million under insured (BECAUSE its “privately” Insuranse companys and too dear for th poor/av familys
you ar poorly defending a non universal 1/2 crap US health sytem , improved I did admit truthfuly from an existin full crap US Healthcare sytem is your typical Green Hack “spin”
In comparison to Gough’s universal healthcare sytem , sayin th new US sytem is going to be 1/2 crap was quite genrous of me Whereas Howrd Dean your “progrssive” facton leeder in th US says it is just crap and reject it
ps/ scorp , he has 60 votes now , he wont hav come mid terms in 2010 , ND alone will go from Dems to Repub , i don’t let off those Dems congrsss wealsels either by th way
Looks like this new book “Game Changer” will show Hillary to be all the shallow nasty petty creature she seemed in the primaries.
Finnigans
Barack forgot the classic, “I had to duck snipers’ bullets in Bosnia.’ sentence with which Hillary holed her campaign among the delegates.
Oh O
Erica’s about
His mad rave
http://australia.to/2010/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=405:muas-outrageous-wage-demands&catid=94:breaking-news
The actual facts
http://mua.org.au/news/call-for-employers-to-reject-abetzs-insults/
and see a poster called “Pancho”
wel if its th panche , th ex new zealander , who was a lib and jumped all th politcal canyons over to a ” progresive” , then welcome th panche
if you ar an imposter , your “nuansing” of th original will be shown amaturish
Finns
Hillary didn’t pioneer Universal Health Care. As gus said, it’s been around for 100 years.
She strangled it at birth!
JV went:
The really funny thing about that wasn’t so much the bald faced lie involved, but the way the US media apparently now accepts such bald faced lies as merely a candidate having “mis-spoke”!!
Like, “mis-spoke”… WTF is that nonsense?!?
Say what you like about some of the crappy press in Oz, but that shit wouldn’t get out of the starting gate here.
Ron
94% get cover. That’s fantastic.
Yes and it died a horrible death and didn’t even get close to the starting gate.
Core and non-core?
Which BTW our MSM really savaged Howie on- NOT
if possum disengenuously wants to talk lies , i can produce tones of publicly recorded Obama lies you fruitcake
all politcans lie , all politcans exagerate , go back to your numbers
Hey Ron! Thanks for the substantive response.
A Lib? Not me pal, you might be misremembering/misspeaking. But it is indeed your old sparring partner. And though I’ve never set foot across the ditch, I do still support the World Champion Kiwi Rugby League team!
I dunno Gus – promising something in an election campaign and then finding out the budget was in a great big stinking whole that made it almost impossible to fund, is one thing.
Telling an upfront porky of fairly serious proportions and saying that you “mis-spoke” is a whole new level of treating the public like an idiot.
Oh well. Sad when reality meets dreams.
http://theenergycollective.com/TheEnergyCollective/51333
Diogenes
According to the APSC Enterprise Agreement 2009–11, Part I Flexible work environment and leave provisions:
Teabreaks nor length of meal breaks are stipulated.
Ron went:
Dulcet ones no doubt.
does the fact that they dont have to vote in the USA change the stance on rhetoric and standards.?
Or is it our lack of freedom of speech that mutes our pollies rants?
Ooops, sorry Gus – didnt cut and paste the rest:
—
So saying, the fact that Hillary even went there clearly suggests the US media was/is in such a poor State that she calculated (sort of successfully) that she could get away with it.
r/Ron
If the US health reforms pass, it will be a massive testament to Obama’s capacity to lead change – mainly to persuade legions of deadhead corrupt representatives in his own party to be a little progressive for once in their self-interested bribery-stained political shadow world.
[“Instead of replacing private insurance companies, the proposed reforms would, in theory, turn them into something like public utilities. That’s how it works in the Netherlands and Switzerland, with reasonably good results”].
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2010/01/04/100104ta_talk_surowiecki
That’s a really good question Gus.
There’s an argument that compulsory voting acts as the great moderator – forcing the parties to campaign with median voter theorum in mind rather than galvanising the fringe to win elections. Perhaps it also carries with it a more pronounced public bullshit detector with it?
Even with our relatively dodgy protection of speech – pollies always have the Cowards Castle of Parliament to vent spleen in. The fact that so few of them do it is interesting in itself.
Gus, this is the like old time. One for me, one for him and one for her. Bring on the 300 Spartans again. Now there are 4 Amigos Vs the 300. Bigar Amigos, yaw.
Ron #862
Good to see that you set such high standards in public administration.
However, accepting the status quo, is not the way to go. There is another way !
Possum
I can’t fathom how it was almost excused. Maybe it comes from the pervasiveness of the movie and TV world in the US. Movies imitated llife; life now imitates movies; what is real what is make-believe?
In the public mind it could a bit like: Was Hillary shot at by snipers; or was it an actor playing Hillary in a war movie? Is there any difference between the persona of a nearly make-believe politician and a make-believe actor? Do things have to be real to have credibility any more in America? Ronald; Arnold; Sarah; that Thomson fellow, et. al..
Perhaps make-believe is as good as reality in US politics now.
Perhaps we also respect the abilty of the “other side” to verify and if needs be ,repudiate falshoods and badmouthing.
872 – It was two against a thousand, two against a thousand. We fought them in the trenches. We hid behind rocks, fired off all our ammunition and then threw rocks at them. We fought for all we were worth. We almost had them. They were two of the toughest people I’ve ever seen.
Finnigans
Bigar Amigos v bigar goooses at 20 posts
Finns
where are GG and Vera?
I’m just wrangling the rest of 300 as we speak
Possum
It was only the comedian Sinbad who actually picked her up on her blatant lie, not the media. Of course, Hillary dismissed Sinbad’s comments as being just from a comedian.
That didn’t work out very well though did it?
Still it wasn’t as bad as when he said she could still win the primary because Obama might be assassinated and then went nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
I don’t think parliamentary privilege is a coward’s castle at all.
Possum Comitatus
Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 at 4:25 pm | Permalink
Ron went:”i can produce tones..”
possum “Dulcet ones no doubt.”
well mine ar in melody , yours: (mock outrage Hillary may hav lied , but ignmoring Obama is a proven liar , all politicans lie) loopy lips ar fruity , so yes fruitcake you’ve done it again
It’s absolutely surreal Diogs! As if an assassination attempt on the First Lady is just so passe!
Coconaut – I think it’s a good thing it exists, it’s just a shame that it often gets abused when it’s used… like Heffernan on Kirby.
Gus, we are keeping the big guns i reserved. you know, the classic Sun Tzu tactic as taught at West Point: “Never expose yourself too early to your enemy, keep the raincoat on”.
Finns
I’m not sure if this a threat or a promise!
Speaking of Bolt, this little Gem has been posted over at The Worst of Perth
http://theworstofperth.com/2010/01/12/bolt/
Diog, you are worse than the broken record. At least the broken record was well spoken once.
Politicians lie because they’re human. Politicians break promises because they’re human (never broken one? Liar!)
Of course, it would be much better if we were governed by non humans.
ah Gus, another Sun Tzu tactic: “keep your enemy guessing”. We will win for sure now, the 300 Spartans have lost their mojo.
Zoom, we will rule the world as we rule the Oceans.
#888 – Zoomster
Good attempt to support the status quo by relying on the “human condition” argument.
Finns
You feel for the first rule of “the prince”
Rules smools
Just saw Mesma on Slynews, she hos lost her mojo as well. She looks 75.
Well I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
Peter Young
what kind of person would you rather was making the laws we live by?
A morally pure individual who had never even been tempted to do anything wrong, let alone actually indulge in a vice, or someone who knew how easy it was for human beings to stray?
The former kind of government gives you Salem and the witchtrials, because the people running it have no conception of what leads people to sin, and thus any deviance from purity can only be the work of the devil.
Diogenes
#879
“Still it wasn’t as bad as when he (COMEDIAN) Sinbad said she could still win the primary because Obama might be assassinated and then went nudge, nudge, wink, wink.”
possum
#882
“It’s absolutely surreal Diogs! As if an assassination attempt on the First Lady is just so passe! “
Now both fruitcakes , discussing a US comedians coments here
and yes , possums #859 oh so so such mock indigaton that a politcan Hillary may hav lied , geez , get reel , your man Obama lies also & is proven to be Geez All pollys do lie , its th business of politcs But you tink not , so selectiv fruity aren’t you , well so is diogenes
#891
I should have added:
The “human condition” is an explanation for behaviour, but is not an excuse for behaviour.
Those that use the argument incorrectly, namely as an excuse for behaviour, are barking up the wRONg tree.
isnt she 75?
PY
I didn’t say that politicians had to sin, but that they did so because they were human, and probably just as rarely or as often as other human beings.
Of course, we should expect them to live according to high standards, just as we expect others to.
But when they fail to do so, as all other human beings do, it doesn’t necessarily mean that that makes them unfit to govern.
#895
You miss my point.
Simply to lie down and accept the status quo is a pathetic position to take.
We should strive to do better. Thus in setting higher standards, we should acknowledge that some will full at the hurdle (if you like because of the human condition_. However, when someone fails to meet the standard, they should be subjected to the most severe penalty (although one can have sympathy for them as an individual). To excuse that persons behaviour results in a generally lowering of the standard.
I am not so naive as to believe that change can be accomplished quickly. It requires a cultural change. Included in that cultural change should be a reward system for insiders (whistle blowers) who see it as their duty to expose the illicit behaviour, rather than, under the current system, be encouraged to sweep it under the carpet or worse. actively support the lie.
Supporters of the status quo have merely thrown up their hands in defeat – believing it is all too hard. Those who believe in higher standards say – lets start now to work towards a better system.
Ron
The comedian turned out to have more credibility than the SOS.
we hav PY and what he calls his dogy , his “bitch”
how do we know when its PY or th “bitch” thats posting
well being not an expert , i asume you can not hav 2 “bitches” in a reelatonship , or can you
Zoomster, I think we all accept too readily our politicians engaging in worst practice behaviour when it doesnt really have to be that way.
We say all politicans lie – but you’d be hard pressed to find, say, Rob Oakeshott ever going down that political route. Kate Lundy comes to mind as someone from a major party that seems to avoid that exploitation of the low public expectations game – I’m sure there’s others from both sides.
Diogenes
as you ar th resident “Dentist” , putting words into peoples mouths , your credits relying a Comedians for Greens Hack politcal point swcoring ar not good at all , you need more therapy , again
‘Comedian’ does not equal politically unsavvy. Exhibit b: http://www.alfranken.com/. You’ll also find c and d on the Comedy Central site.
#902
wRONg again.
Ever heard of a double ended dong?
Poss
most of the pollies I know are amongst the most honest people I know.
The trouble is that people don’t understand the restrictions governance places on you. There are things you know that you can’t say – even to say that you know them but can’t say them can get you into trouble.
Politicians tend to lie in the way we all do – when a friend asks, obviously seeking reassurance, whether they’re too fat, most of us give the answer they want. We also all take positions which, once we know more about them, we alter. We all tend to oversell what we can deliver, as well. And put the best face on our mistakes.
And the promises thing gets me. If I made you a promise that I would meet you for a cup of coffee in two years time, setting a specific time and date, you would be surprised if I delivered. Yet these are the kinds of promises we expect pollies to honour all the time.
It would be nice if people allowed pollies wriggle room on this. It would be good if, in the lead up to an election, pollies were allowed to say, “I intend to act on this issue, but it’s quite possible that, when I get into office, I find out things I don’t know now which will prevent me. And of course, if World War III breaks out, all bets are off.”
People seem to want absolute guarantees from politicians. They’re not deliverable.
(Sorry, poss; it irritates me — slightly).
I just love the way the die-hards scream about the other side lying but as soon as their precious gets caught out it’s “All politicians lie”.
Ron
The Comedian was RIGHT and showed that Hillary was a bare-faced liar who couldn’t be trusted.
And I love it how you complain about “point scoring”. All that means is that you LOST.
winston@816
[GB please read – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Well I’ll be buggered. I only ever connected that behaviour to dwellers under bridges, but fishing is a much better way of looking at it.
Thanks Winston, much appreciated.
Possum Comitatus
Posted Tuesday, January 12, 2010 at 5:36 pm | Permalink
“WE say all politicans lie”
WE ? , heavens he’s agreeing with me , anyway a welcome backstep from your mock indignaton #859 post
A polly who has not lied is a polly who says he has never sinned
Independents by there nature of being electd and almost threre own bosses on there polisys , may tell less porkys
pollys ar actual humans , so dont get boen lie free , although in Tuckeys case maybe brainless
then th nature , context and reason for a pollys lie is a factor to consider
#907
Politicians are the authors of their own misfortune,
They sell the promises as guarantees. It’s too easy to blame the people for demanding it. Pollies should have the guts to stand up and say what they mean.
Once again you are tending to use the explanation argument, as an excuse.
zoomster
Hillary’s whopper was so gross and fantastical that it does make her unfit to govern n my view. We’re not talking about an exaggeration here, a minimisation there about issues or outside events. That’s what “all” politicians do.
Hillary’s was a total fabrication of her very own experience, designed to make her look heroic. She’s in a class of the bizarre all her own. If anyone did that in Australia they too would show themselves psychologically unsuited to representing anyone.
Diog
Please do not accuse me of hypocrisy. I wasn’t defending anybody – I joined in on a conversation about politicians and lying and attempted to explain why it happens.
I don’t think I’ve ever launched attacks here on anyone for lying. I would only do so if the information which showed the politician was wRONg was available to the politician concerned at the time – that is, they were actually lying.
Sorry, no, not defending Hillary. As I said above, talking in general terms.
911
PY – don’t know any who do. The 30 second sound grab doesn’t allow for qualified statements.
I agree with you Zoomster – irritates me as well. That juvenile style of ‘Gotcha’ journalism that prevents basic nuance has a lot to answer for.
Though, there are still too many pollies willing to engage in a level of dishonesty for everyone’s good – Conroy comes to mind here at the moment… but that’s just my little bugbear.
The irony, I suppose, is that pollies get caught out by silly mistakes on what are really little more than irrelevant facts and figures (like Howard on the interest rate level in the 07 election campaign), while their gross bullshit based on a really big lie is often let slide (keeping with Howard, the interest rates will always be lower spiel, Iraq had WMD spiel, the whole boat people spiel etc – and no doubt untold Labor ones throughout history as well)
Ron went:
There’s nothing mock or indignant about it – the US media has become so inane that it allows politicians to push that particular envelope to the point where a bald faced lie about an attempted assassination of the wife of the worlds most powerful person can be written off as someone having merely “mis-spoke”.
It wasnt a mis-speak, it was an outright, bald faced lie that Clinton said because she thought she could get away with it. Don’t know what is worse, the fact that she thought she could get away with it because the US media is mostly a tool shed, or the fact that she nearly did!
For all the probs with the Australian media, that dog wouldn’t hunt here.
possum
“For all the probs with the Australian media, that dog wouldn’t hunt here.”
NEITHER would Obama’s proven lies cut it in oz , you fruitcake
All pollies lie , deel with it , instead of being selectiv bisased to your Obamaman , and pretendin to be holier than thou fruity indignant
Ron went in his own inimitable way:
I’ll have you know I’m much more of a Panforte than a mere “fruit cake”!
National Nine Network Nightly News had a story on school funding, specifically Exclusive Brethren schools… obviously Rudd’s fault.
If he changed Howard’s funding regime the same grubs would of been screaming class warfare.
There was also a story about the Lodge’s wine cellar, $7.00 bottles in there and no Grange! Talk about wasting tax payer dollars…
z
Actually I was thinking of Ron.
And the information was well and truly available to Hillary when she lied about sniper fire. She got what was coming.
And I agree with jv. There is a difference between spin/BS and being a pathological liar.
Better start a list then – some have been mentioned already. Those who may not have admitted it, but are as guilty as Hillary (we’d better not include broken political promises or the list will be infinite):
Howard – WMD; children overboard; AWB
Reith – children overboard; waterfront scab commandos training in Dubai
Andrews – Haneef puppeteering
Downer – Hicks; Habib – government’s role in rendition, guantanimo
Conroy – Internet filters
Gough W – East Timor
Any other notable big liars here among our recent pollies?
Rudd-no special deal for the OV AS
Howard actually misled Parliament knowingly and still didn’t resign.
[Labor MP question to the Prime Minister: “Prime Minister, was the government contacted by the major Australian producer of ethanol or by any representative of his company or the Industry Association before its decision to impose fuel excise on ethanol?”
John Howard:“Speaking for myself, I did not personally have any discussions, from recollection, with any of them.”
John Howard, Question Time, 17 September 2002
John Howard had met on 1 August the head of Manildra Group [Dick Honan], which makes 87 per cent of our ethanol, and they discussed how to help the Australian ethanol industry.]
possum
#916
“the US media has become so inane that it allows politicians to push that particular envelope to the point where a bald faced lie about an attempted assassination of the WIFE of the worlds most powerful person can be written off as someone having merely “mis-spoke”.
It wasnt a mis-speak, it was an outright, bald faced lie that Clinton said ”
PUT UP fruity , th FULL quote by Hillary , from a credible souse she spoke about th wife Michelle
ps/ no help from th desciples
Er.. Wot?
Ron
Read ‘em and weep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4&NR=1
I should probably stay out of this, but I think Ron has the wrong end of a handle. He believes the line about “an attempted assassination of the WIFE of the worlds most powerful person” has something to do with Michelle Obama, rather than the Hillary Clinton in Bosnia business.
The ongoing question is – how many ends can a handle have?
Ron’s reading and comprehension skills are apparently no match for his prodigious writing skills.
JV@928:
At least two – think of a stick through the wire bail of a large billy, such as a kerosene tin, each end picked up by one person, and carried away from the fire.
No William ,
possum’s quote to those who do NOT know th info can only be Possum disengenuously saying Hillary mis- spoke lied about comneting on an attemted assasination on Michelle Obama when according to Possum she told an outright lie
THAT is th ONLY subject in his post , so posters would be mislead , see quote
possum
#916
“the US media has become so inane that it allows politicians to push that particular envelope to the point where a bald faced lie about an attempted assassination of the WIFE of the worlds most powerful person can be written off as someone having merely “mis-spoke”.
It wasnt a mis-speak, it was an outright, bald faced lie that Clinton said because she thought she could get away with it.”
PUT UP fruity your evidense for this coment , th FULL quote by Hillary , from a credible souse she spoke about th attempted assassination of th WIFE Michelle Obama
Ron@924:
Dio:
[Ron
Read ‘em and weep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4&NR=1
Ron, you are wRONg!
(Been waiting to say that for quite a while!)
Umm, Ron.
At the time Hillary claimed to have survived her sniper encounter, she was the wife of the world’s most powerful person, ie Bill Clinton who was POTUS.
don
In this case I think we need a few more ends from which to choose:
http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Heritage/Warrior/images/upperdeck/welcome.jpg
Ron – dude – Michelle Obama has nothing to do with Hillary in Bosnia (where, at the time of her mis-imagined history of getting shot at by snipers, Hillary was the wife of the most powerful person on earth)!
JV – you and your candle quips make you a truly wicked person!
Ah, Poll Bludgers never ceases to amuse. Ron and Possum, an endless source of sniggles.
On the no smoking thingy, Victorian then Dept. of Human Services (really Dept. of Human Sacrifice), declared all Health facilities smoking free last year. You have to move outside the immediate precinct of the health facility, it’s about 15 m and you can use you’re usual breaks to go and have a smoke. Patients are offered substitute stuff to get them to quit and big mobs of people have in fact quit. I did, after smoking for 40 years.
So now we KNOW Hillary said nothing about any attempted assassinaton on Michelle Obama , for th benefit of posters not fully intersted in th US who may hav been deceived othrwise
So possum just used poor unspecific english talking ONLY about an attempted assinaton on Michelle Obama , when reely everyone was supposed to know he was reely talking about Hilary claiming in 2008 she was under sniper fire in bosnia in 1996 !
( a you- tube copy I had already of)
So possum is now left ONLY having mock indigaton that Hillary bragged about being undr sniper fire TWELVE years earlier , and what mis-spoke
Yet i can produce publicly recorded Obama lies as well, big deel !
all politcans lie , all politcans exagerate , get reel
so your mock indignation against only one politcan is biased selectiv , you a strawman fruitcake argument
I am still trying to get my head around the handle business. If the handle is round, as on a cup, and therefore does not have an end, does this this mean either both, or not, Hillary and Michelle, were shot at, or not
Ron
I take a great interest in US politics and you truly do have the wrong end of the stick.
Sadly I have been reading Abbott transcripts from FNQ and NEWSFLASH!
Abbott has rules out another of Greg Hunts planks for carbon action.
1st it was ruling out regulation
2nd it was ruling out trees (thanks Barnaby)
and today he has ruled our paying a coal plant to convert to gas.
TONY ABBOTT:
Yeah but if we make the heavy emitters dramatically reduce their emissions, it’s going to cost them a lot more to do what they are currently doing. I mean for instance a power station that has to convert from cheap brown coal to more expensive gas is going to emit less CO2 but it is going to have to put its price up and that’s why reducing emissions if it is mandated by an emissions trading scheme is going to have heavy costs cascading through the economy for everyone else.
(http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=4479)
Poor Greg is going to be left with sucking up all the CO2 by himself.
For info about his plan to convert coal to gas- “More recently, Coalition environment spokesman Greg Hunt has been suggesting the paying of the most polluting brown coal-fired power stations such as Hazelwood, Loy Yang and Flinders to retire their boilers and turbines and replace them with combined cycle gas.” http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/liberals-stick-to-emission-targets-by-other-means/story-e6frg6nf-1225806336561
Ron this is what they are talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHVEDq6RVXc
The other interesting one from Abbott in answer to a question from a caller who throught the BoM was hiding flood data.
TONY ABBOTT:
Okay, Kevin, look, I presume the Bureau of Meteorology is a New South Wales Government instrumentality.
Only 57% Obi. I am sure HRC would have pulled 75% for sure.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/11/obama-praised-by-57-perce_n_419246.html
Its not often that someone poll axes themself, if they do successfully do such, Does the poll then have one end or two. Old philisophical question, ?
Rather distracted at the moment – in one of the ‘Catastrophic’ areas and have huge winds blowing everything around. No probs so far but area was hit badly in 2003, 06 & 09, so it’s still a worry.
Ron@938:
Mate, when you are down the bottom of a deep hole, quit digging.
You are off with the fairies on this one. You are so hopeless on this issue that you are not even wRONg!!!!
Scarpat@939:
I’m glad you brought that up. It may be of interest to note that a mathematician interested in topology cannot tell the difference between a doughnut and a cup of coffee!
Shot, or not, who can cut this Gordian knot? Not I.
bg@941:
Indeed, you do not have a life. Get out, go for a walk, smell the flowers.
Anyone who reads Abbott transcripts for pleasure is up for the Godwin Grech award. Or is into self flagellation perhaps.
Nothing wrong with that, just sayin’.
Hi TP,
Look, polls with no context( Who did it and why?) or history (Compared to what) mean bugger all.
bg@941:
Sorry, disregard my earlier post.
Thanks for that, very good and pertinent information. Great stuff.
Just you wait till parliament gets back (roll on!) and the polls start up again (roll on!!!)
Tony is toast.
Rudd will do him slowly and thoroughly and with relish, Julia will crush his almonds, and Swannie will napalm him.
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke.
I’m pretty sure Ron wasn’t wRONg.
It was a Freudian slip due to the guilty knowledge that it eating him up and keeping him awake at night.
Ron has been hired by Hillary to take out Michelle Obama.
Think about it people. It connects all the dots.
Why did Kevie let potential terrorists come to Australia, when he knew all the way back in Indonesia they were a security risk?
Oh thats right, because he had to bend over and take it from both the Indonesians and Oceanic Viking boatpeople because he’s a soft touch.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/12/2790631.htm
Diogs,
As we are on new media and we’re pioneers on this bloggy thingo, you reckon “Diogenes is wRong” could become the standard cry of the intelligentso.
You could be doing yourself out of a quid by spreading the brand.
Dio@952:
Dio, you are evil.
I like it!
Thanks Don,
I agree on the get a life statement.
I don’t know whether to feel for Greg Hunt or not. Somehow he should have known that this sort of shit would happen.
I just can’t imagine a climate policy entirely based on light globes and soil.
Its not just Julia who will eat them for breakfast. It will be the enviro movement, industry groups, economists etc etc.
Why do you think Hillary is really coming on the 17th?
Have you seen the temperatures in the northern hemisphere?
TP@954:
Thanks TP, much appreciated.
I think the Australian is dreaming if it thinks that it can make a go of charging for its content.
The content is available free elsewhere, at the very least the BBC and our ABC.
And less biased, for that matter, despite the cynics on this board.
Free content is what the net is all about. You make your money on the ads.
The Wall Street Journal is a special case, where US business takes out a subscription so its employees can access the information.
Here in Oz, there are other free places to get the same or better information.
This blog, for a start. I get much better, and more up to date info here than I ever could on the MSM.
Twitter for another. I don’t follow it, but others do, and post relevant information here, for which I am grateful.
Twitter will become a more and more useful tool, I don’t see it as a flash in the pan. It expands the network of information.
Scarpat
Apparently temperatures in the NH are all over the place – Canada, North Africa, Alaska and the Med are 5-10 degrees above ‘normal’.
We’re just UK- and USA-centric.
Are you suggesting she is escaping the cold?
959
I rang up a friend and congratulated her on being chosen for the 2020 summit.
She was surprised; she had only just heard herself.
I got it from LP, not this blog, but the point is the same!
But will Stephen Smith invite her to meet his folks and speak at her Daughter’s School like he did for Condi Rice ?
so I’m back , and happy , and see th “apologists”ar till left with is th unpatabel , th politcal reality of all pollys lying
ie politcan Obama (a liar , want evidense try Rev Wright) has appointd politcan Hilary (who you say also lied so grevously on bosnia sniping its a major National security issue ! ) …..but Obama apoints her to th 3rd highest exec positon in USA , Secretary of State
an own goal by youse on your logics (if it was so grevous , he would not hav apointed her)
whereas by my view (all pollys do lie , including Obama) , th apointment was norm !
So possum j/v & Diogenes were very SELECTIV mockery indignatons , as usual
ps/ for those posters who had Bosnia you tubes , then obvous you knew what possum was talkin about from your exsitin US knowledge , fine but you should not be too presumtous of othr observers please guys , who may be US politcaly unfamilar , and get mislead by possums looose language
And what would US politcaly unfamilar people likely think anyway:
Hilary alegedly is lying “ABOUT th assassinaton of th wife of th most powerful person in th world” , they’d hardly that Hillary and “th wife” were th same person !!
More likely they’d think its a Hillary lie about Michelle Obama (wife of th curent potus
Clearly th language use on this Site needs improving
Hmm, could she be humming this song on her flight down here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iDEj2T1dok
make that HIS Daughter’s School
bg@957:
I don’t know, it is totally out of left field.
Oz doesn’t rank except as a second or third order player in world affairs.
What does Hillary know that we don’t?
She’s not stupid, she’s a hard headed politician, as you imply there must be a bloody good reason.
Beats me.
Bill’s due here on the 16th?
Clearly
Paw’s before you type, Poss
Ron@964:
Mate, trust me on this:
You are dreamin’. You just.don’t.have.a.clue.
There was no plot to assassinate Michelle Obama. It’s in your head, you obviously can’t get it out of your head, but it’s not right.
Have a cup of tea, a BEX and a good lie down.
Tomorrow is another day.
My feeling is that she is out to help Ruddy et al crush Abbott.
Abbott is regarded in the US/UK right blogosphere as a bit of a cliamte skeptic hero. They are all watching with baited to breath to see the result of what the world is viewing as the worlds first climate election. Turnbull is seen as the first scalp of ‘climate gate’.
If Abbott get smashed then it may well limit the bravado of the global conservatives to take a skeptic line climate change.
I was really expecting Gore late Jan/Early Feb but I think Hillary will be even better.
I think I’ve heard everything now.
BTW Hillary is going to AUSMIN (Australia-United States Ministerial Consultations) which seems to be a Foreign Affairs and Defence Minister thing. The respective ministers often go so it’s not surprising Hillary would come.
They could have sent any old junior hack to AUSMIN. Hillary didn’t have to come.
Just as well you are there to put them back on the correct syntactical, grammatical, and semiotic track, then r/Ron.
I thought Hilary was coming for the annual AUSMIN talks – bilateral Australia/US Ministerial talks, between defense and foreign affairs ministers – that take place by rotation in the US or here. This has been long-planned.
Madeleine Albright went when she was SOS with Bill Cohen, to meet Downer and McLachlan respectively.
http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/us/ausmin/index.html
You under-rate the importance of Australia to the US. As Kim Beazley is apt to point out,
almost uniquely among US allies, Australia generates security value for the US, rather than expending it. If I were an American Defense or State Department official, I would give thanks for Australia every day.
Briefly,
Hear hear!
So Afghanistan, Pakistan and body scanners will be on the agenda. It might be interesting.
Does Labor have a policy on the body scanners?
#965
Lordy…those dancing girls are soooooo camp.
Dio, do you mean Labor or the Government?
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=992498
Scarpat
Either. Looks like Pegasus has answered the question. Downer was saying in the paper yesterday that we should get them. I suppose AUSMIN might help decide.
More info
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/airports-sweating-on-full-body-scans/story-e6frg6nf-1225815130089
Hillary wants to come and say TQ to the 4 Amigos who supported her
Finns
Long way to come for a bit of lovin.
Gus, as the Rascals would cry: It’s Good Lovin’, yeah yeah yeah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVAusXuPsY8
i suppose that is another way of stopping the Iranian nuclear program:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8453401.stm
FACT is possum in his #859 made an outragous claim of being “suposedly so horified about Hillary and her bosnia bragging , AS IF no othr pollys including Obama lie
possums fair duster indignaton was very hypocritial
What he reeling was doing was switchin hats to be a mere poster , and was simply sniping at th then opponent of his man Obama , as if pretnding Obama like all politcans do lie (and he fruity does know othrwise )
His disciples j/v & th Dentist diogenes were bunnies following with false indignaton as well
ps/ don 7 fedn & othrs , don’t be foolish I knew there was no story about michelle obama , but “Panforte” ‘s language was so loose to those US unfamilar making it misleading , and that point still stands
991
You are wrong but you either can’t see that or you are refusing to acknowledge the fact.
Ron
Obviously they are the auxillaries.
We spartans know your feats of linguistics.
Joe Hockey has gone grey
There is a Santa Claus!
steve K
you moron , i said i knew what he meant but that his post was misleading to those US unfamilar
to those familar with US politcs they also knew
you ar a cheap sniper , and not very good at it eithr
Perhaps Ron should take the Dugites advice and Cut The Talking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAQN8IokcLs
Perhaps Ron should invest in some inexpensive spell check software. That would go a long way to making himself understood.
Thanks for the link to the Dugites Frank. I hated much of 80s music but the Dugites are a guilty pleasure.
Steve K,
It ‘s amazing. Ron’s a PB icon and no one takes any notice of you.
Tell me, who needs to make themselves understood?.
Ron
Us Possum devotees have started up a special site of Possum-scribed poetry.
http://opossum.craton.net/opoetry.htm
I don’t think Ron cares whether some people can be bothered understanding him or not.
It’s a sort of filtering device.
Dio
You suck.badly
And PY and his doggy , th “bitch” , like Possum also made an indignant post of horror of pollys lying
But even I can not put Panforte in PY’s camp , perhaps camp no th right word sorry
although with Diogenes & j/v , well thats a POSS-ibility
Diog, you seem to be in your element tonight, could it be related to your delight in Hillary bashing?
You are wRONg on three counts.
ZOOM
STUM
we dont want flight of the discord again
Steve K, wRONg – this is always a trap to the young player
I thought no one takes any notice of me.
We do if you’re wrong.
Steve
Ron is a PB legend. Some of his wordplay is like reading Joyce in Finnegan’s Wake.
Tonite,I promise a special prayer just for you.
Diog, wRONg again. Finnigan’s Wake while the Dolphin sleeps.
Now that doesn’t make sense but I’m not surprised.
Steve K
I didn’t know there was software that corrects and enhances faulty: spelling; grammmar; punctuation; syntax; ideas; context; brevity; prioritising; focussing; synthesising; understanding; irony; and humour. Or do you mean cut and paste software?
Where is vera
then we will have the quadrella.
JV, I’m not asking for nor expecting perfection but a little effort would go a long way.
Calm done son. It’s ‘tonight’ BTW.
Dad
just checking if it was a selective affectation.
Diogs,
Agree. There is a poetry and rythym to Ron’s posts that transcend the normal! Those that gvie up because of spelling and grammar are doing themselves a disservice.
Or Dylan Thomas after a night at the White Horse Tavern.
jv, yes, there is. it’s called “The Brain”. but could be a problem if you aint got one.
GG
No man-love pls.we’re non consenting adults.
.
.
.
.
Well some of us.
Finns
Inspired by the ‘second best intelligence’ thing the other day, I reread ‘The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy’ just so I could find this quote for you (it’s school hols, I’m bored…)
‘…man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much – the wheel, New York, wars and so on – whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man – for precisely the same reasons.’
Gus,
I always call it as I see it.
Ron’s return has really confused all the riff raff. They should be scared !He talks ideas while they play silly word games.
Finnigans
I was thinking we could all chip in to help r/Ron get hold of that great software.
Finns,
Some people have two. The only trouble is, one is lost and the other one is out looking for it!
Zoom, TQ for that comment. we also believe that the sole cause of man’s unhappiness is because he cannot stay quietly in his room.
Just look at Diog, he’s the perfect specimen.
You been profiling the Greens again,you naughty boy
Scorp, funny you should mention that because we got two of those “thingy”
for the same reason 
we call them the wanderers. 
Finns
For you
http://source.ly/10qEl
I thought it would be difficult to take any action to conclusion against the Japanese. The SSCS has filed a complaint with the NZ police today alleging attempted murder by the Japanese skipper. That won’t go anywhere in my view because it will be impossible to prove a key elelment – intent to kill – unless the skipper admits it. Negligence was always the best chance I think, but even that will be problematic:
http://www.legalbrief.co.za/article.php?story=20100112070304170
Ah, JV, our resident St Jude.
i hav defferred to skills of GG and finns , but thought should reurn for a special blessings ,
to th one , th only , th one and only , th “I thought no one takes any notice of me.Steve K 11.07 pm ”
tissues
petal i do ,
perhaps sometimes
well not at all , when i actualy think about it ,
but one day i may
Which one GG, the Catholic one or the Protestant one? Brother of Jesus H Christ himself or a separate apostle? Am I two apostles or one. I need to get that clear in my own head. At least the protestant way I get 2 brains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_the_Apostle
Dont you , forget about me,dont, dont.
ps Steve K is ok
JV,
As you know very well, St Jude the patron Saint of lost causes.
I thought he was just Obscure.
GG
Ah
The patron saint of the greens
I thought that was St Patrick…
Oh no, he got rid of the snakes. No true greenie would do that.
Zoom
I’ll leave the snake in the grass analogy alone,lest i become persona non gratia amongst our green frenemies
gus,
Very unfair. They never had them in the first place.
Gus, am i surprised? Of course not. Did i not always maintain that the Comrades were and still are the original running dogs of the capitalist.
Snakes or Saints?
Or both?
Gus,
Exactly.
Finns
I yap in your wake
Jude-baby hawks himself out all over the place. Not only does he look after the flocking hopeless, but also:
Perhaps the Sea Shepherd people should get onto the Chicago Police Dept for assistance against the Japanese whalers.
JV,
It’ll never happen because it would be PR vote.
Finns
Re the 300 Spartans analogy
Sometimes I think its more Troy than Thermophalye.
But that is jsut my achilles heel
gus,
Time wounds all heals.
I enjoy Rons well thought out and spoken responses, it’s a very big change from the Labor Hackery for which I normally read.
Toothy, i am warming up to you. It must be the warm air of the Arafura sea.
Scrambled Labor hackery is still labor hackery. In fact, r/Ron worked in ciphers and codes in WW2 under PM John Curtin. It didn’t do him any good.
In fact r/Ron’s posts are perfectly clear, cogent and logical at home – before he subjects them to encipherment through his machine:
http://w1tp.com/enigma/u_060.jpg
That’s why he’s such an enigma.
This is a must see for all of PB, I’m sure:
There’s even a nice Sarah Palin number where she gets her groove on amid a stage of fishnet-wearing go-go girls. Hilarious.
http://www.ecorazzi.com/2010/01/11/obama-hope-musical-finally-makes-watching-sarah-palin-enjoyable/
And here’s a post from beneath the above article on the musical reminding us succinctly of the unreconstructed extremists out and about in the US waiting to get Barack:
The Indian Students in Australia debate continues on the international stage with reports that an Australian academic has told a conference in Switzerland that more needs to be done.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/indian-assault-response-decried/story-e6frg6nf-1225818580004
Give me Labor hacks rather than Liberal fibbers every day.
Speaking of Labor Hacks – here is the Story of Gough, as seen through the eyes of Barry Humphries and his good friends Sir Les Patterson and Dame Edna Everage, plus includes rare footage of the late Smacka Fitzgibbon performing his musical tribute to Gough, which was of course an adaption of his own hit “The Adventures Of Barry McKenzie”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evuLTKjKyzE
Ron@991:
Panforte, or Siena Cake, is an italian version of fruitcake.
I didn’t know what it was when Poss mentioned it, so I googled it and learned something.
That’s what google is for.
Looks as if the OO is going to start charging for their lib hack “so-called” *news* sooner than later, ie “before then end of the year”.
Thats great for labor
Pity is not going to be introduced before this years federal election.
That way, just when the libs would have needed the OO to print their tripe in an election year, even less people would havel had access to it without paying.
But I wonder what their abc will do for content then ?
http://www.smh.com.au/business/news-charges-into-battle-for-cash-20100112-m4pm.html
Is that when they find Barry’s birth certificate from Kenya/Indonesia/Afghanistan.??
Or when they Find he really is Commie plant
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1546/Hey-Obama-Whos-Freddy.aspx
#1059 Frank
Obviously Edward Gough Whitlam had a personality.
Pity about the present incumbent of the Lodge.
Frank Calabrese #1059
Ah, what memories!
It’s 36 years since I heard the unforgettable The Adventures of Edward Gough Whitlam (I can’t remember whether it was on Mike Willesee’s final 1973 ACA, or the ABC’s final TDT). Unforgettable, because it sung repeatedly for ages, especially at informal Amnesty International gatherings as news of the CIA’s coup against Allende in Chilie, still rather confused, seeped through & the letter writing and petition campaigns filled the vacuum left by the withdrawal of Aussie troops from Vietnam.
Thanks, Mate! You made our day!
Peter Young #1064
Miaow! Scratch, scratch!
Did you get out the wrong side of the bed this morning, Dahling?
An Australian professor of International Education tips the bucket. I’m not sure what actual evidence he presented but his statement is pretty sweeping.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/indian-assault-response-decried/story-e6frg6nf-1225818580004
I should add that I was reading about life expectancy yesterday. In about 96% of countries, females have a greater life expectancy than males. The only countries where the opposite is true are those where women are treated poorly.
India was one of those.
Sarah Palin is President in waiting after Obama is assisinated.
1069 – Typical right wing BS. Disgusting.
Hmmm. Professor Marginson sounds suspiciously like lefty e.
Is being assisinated a Tully Tinnie way of saying, I luv you.
I bet you wish Barry was assisinating you, you naughty boy.
Not really. Pretty much every President that has ever been in power has been the subject to an assisination attempt.
Please get educated on the subject.
GW Bush was almost killed when someone threw a handgrenade at him in Georgia. Luckily the pin didn’t pop out.
I’m glad Detective Marginson has solved the case. The police can breathe easy now that the culprit has been caught, and we know the motive behind the murder of the Indian to have been blind racism. Elementary. Marginson can put his deerstalker and magnifying glass back in his bottom drawer, and resume his academic studies.
#1073
“Luckily”?
True troothy,why they just luv putting their fat ass’s in most nations.
btw Assassin is a derivative from a moslem sect that used hashish to brainwash its followers.
‘assisinated’ ? Does this mean he is to become Barack of Assisi alongside other notables such as Francis of Assisi?
You and I both know stating a fact, as above, is one thing but using that fact with a wish to advance a cause of someone else is another. The intent behind your comment was very clear. You can’t hide the smell of that pile of crap.
Others ‘assisinated’ have been Clare of Assisi, and also Agnes of Assisi.
The town of Assisi is twinned with Bethlehem in Palestine so maybe that exlains the spelling variation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisi
Only if you think ‘less than half’ counts as ‘pretty much every’, so maybe you should get educated on the subject.
And what exactly was the intent behind my comment exactly?
As flagged on PB, Abbott has backflipped on the whales. He is now challenging the Government to take legal action. Hunt got to him and explained the situation, no doubt.
Heffernan and Joyce are at odds over Spencer. Joyce reckons he is a champ. Heffernan reckons he is a silly bugger because, apart from a few other things, no-one should be allowed to clear rocky hilltops in the Brindabellas.
Joyce and Abbott are at public odds over the means testing of something or other.
Apparently the OO has decided not to use the headline:
‘Opposition at odds over simply everythiing’.
Okay let me be more specific.
Pretty much every President in the last 50 Years has been the subject of an assisination attempt. If anything it has become more common.
Answered.
Sarah Palin is absolutely nowhere except at Fox News.
Presidential succession goes;
1 Joe Biden (Vice President and President of Senate)
2 Nancy Pelosi (Speaker of the House)
3 Robert Byrd (Senate President Pro Tempore)
4 Hillary Clinton (State)
5 Timothy Geithner (Treasury)
6 Robert Gates (Defense)
and then through the rest on Cabinet.
I didn’t see failed Alaskan Governor and failed VP candidate on the list.
I suppose a right-wing poster that isn’t a malicious extremist, racial supremacist or Truth Hurter is out of the question?
Come back, Glen! All is forgiven.
Swan’s back on the job.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/coalition-divided-on-rebate-policy-swan-20100113-m5q0.html
I’m pretty sure Glen was a hard core Greens voter. How could he be a rightie?
How can anyone take Twitter seriously?
‘Ok going on 4 days no sleep. Ahhh! Going to doctor’s appointment in 5 hours. Eeek! Pregnancy news soon??? Stay tuned…’ ,/i>
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/lesbian-tila-tequila-tells-twitter-she-may-be-pregnant-after-losing-casey-johnson/story-e6frfmqi-1225817933182
Wayne Swan:
They didn’t even manage it very competently when the going was easy.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/coalition-divided-on-rebate-policy-swan-20100113-m5q0.html
Cupps
Agree with Wayne Swan completely
“that inflation genie is out of the bottle” was uttered about 2 month before we had to start decreasing interest rate by 3.5%
Not very competent
Odes Possum wRONg
I now notice a lot of posts addrssd to me yesterday I’d missed , sensitive bees , know alls who actualy know bugger , so will reply in one
Before some of you Johny come latelys were heavily involved in th US 2008 electon , I and some othrs here were already on Gilligans Island slaying about 30 rabbid Obamaphiles , daily , of which th Bosnian snip incident & th Bosnia video was a mere one pebble on a beach of many debates
So we know all about Hilarys ‘mis-spoke’ bragging on Bosnian sniper fires , and othrs of her , a FACT a lot of posters who were then on Gilligans Isalnd ar now on this PB Site now and can atest to
and we also know all about Obama’s numerous publicly recorded lies , including ‘him alegedly not reely knowing th Rev Jeriamiahs Wright all from his mouths
and we knows all politcans lie
So you amaturs claimin I was unaware of Bosnia were just fools rushing in where angels fear to go in armed cars
And then playing ‘gotcha’ games , with linking your outdated you-tube bosnia videos , when I had day ones original versions back in 2008 ,when we then debated it to th obamaphiles , geez you only got got yourselves
So yesterdays when deeling with possum stirrer I asked his disciples not to answr on his behalf let hims , but youse just could not contain your eager eagerness to post I had chalengeed his loose vague post which an UNinformed on US politcs PB Observer may hav thought was about assassinating Michelle Obama But I of couse knew he was refering to Bosnia sniper , dodos , but that was not th point I asked him
Had youse then ACTUALY read my immediate #931 reply to Williams reasonable point query you would hav seen I specificaly said th problam with vague possums post was that UNinformed people on US politcs could miscontrue his loose post as refferring to Michelle
Obvous I was not going to clarify his potental vague post ! What and hav me repeet for him his Bosnian sniper lie so he could repeet again HIS INDIGNANT SHALLOW histeria that a politan good grief had lied ! Come off it I wanted him to clarify his own post , for th UNinformed , it was quite uncomplex , TIL youse made it so , and which I note possum later simply did do so and fine
IMPORTANTLY , so lazy ar youse that HAD you followed th Thread THREE hours earlier , you would hav known possum and I were aware of Bosnia sniper storys
possum #859 at 4.13 PM specifically discussed ONLY th Bosnian sniper fire aleged lie
and I replied at #862 4.21 pm
“if possum disengenuously wants to talk lies , i can produce tones of publicly recorded Obama lies you fruitcake , all politcans lie , all politcans exagerate , go back to your numbers”
so those that sanctimonously tought they were gotcha smartarses , ar just mere toasted bees after all
And now to th substanse of that post , what fruity poss did in his #916 as he did in his #859 was to express unbeleivable moral INDIGNANT outrage at Hilarys single aleged bragging lie on Bosnia , AS IF his preferred candidate Obama and all politcans do not also lie
Given that Obama a politcan , and indeed all US politcians lie , his indignantness was th height of hypacracy , so earlier he was called by me (rightly) a fruitcake
Possum then claimed he was not a mere fruitcake but instead a “Panforte”!! , but hav never heard of that word
And finaly some cultural educatons , possums ar not human and sit on branchs and do often fall off , and so hav fits of indignantness Yesterday fruity’s whole branch must hav broken he was just so falsely hypocriticaly indignant , when reely all politcans do lie Try being a flowerpot under a possum , th results equal his moral indignantness
I do “forgive” youse for being so wRONg , this being such a christan community and that , and if you dont like th abov you can tell how much I cares
Gary Bruce
To follow up from your disgust yesterday at the Daily Telegragh attacking KK whilst she is on holidays (apparently at Salt) in the Tweed area. The local newspaper has reported on the issue:
http://www.northernstar.com.au/story/2010/01/13/premier-mum-on-tweed/
It seems the story is the result of the local MP being very fond of getting into the media.
However, what is most interesting is the readers comments.
This in particular:-
‘Provest Snubbed Again’ should have been the title to this story. The message is simple – Geoff is so totally irrelivant that everyone even from his own side ignore him.
On the subject of Ms Keneally’s visit to Tweed last month, Warren Polglase happily met with the Premier and received millions for water treatment in Banora therefore it is clear that Geoff Provest needs to step aside as he is simply out of his depth.
Polglase is the local Mayor. Part of a pro-development group. He was a member of the Council in 2005 when it was sacked.
So KK is quite happy to smooch up to him! Oh what a surprise!
Under Wayne Swan’s Treasurership Australia came through the global financial crisis without having gone into recession, and among the fastest-growing advanced economies in the world.
Under John Howard’s Treasurership in the early 1980s (during another serious global downturn), Australia had its worst recession since the Great Depression. He is the only Treasurer in history who’s engineered the ‘Trifecta of Misery’:
double-digit unemployment
double-digit interest rates
and double-digit inflation
… all at the same time!
That’s what I’d define as “not very competent”.
I know which party I’d rather have in power when the going gets tough.
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20070627-Why-John-Howard-never-made-the-cover-of-Euromoney.html
Ron
You are struggling with the concept of “monumental lie which you would be caught out on from someone already known to be a pathological liar” vs “subtle use of English to maximise support”.
There’s a big difference.
Well, not people who follow celebrity entertainment columns, that’s for sure. Doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of really great people in the Twitterverse who are worth following.
Amigo, Poss is worse than that. He came around midnite and shit all over my veranda the size of the peas. He aint got no manner.
What do you get when you cross a possum with a dolphin?
Ron
Remember these
1. Hillary saying she was named after Edmund Hillary, who unfortunately hadn’t climbed anything except the local hill when she was born.
2. Hillary saying Chelsea was jogging near the twin towers when they went down. Chelsea was actually asleep in bed on the other side of the city.
3. She learnt how to make money from the futures market by reading the WSJ. The WSJ didn’t cover the futures market at the time.
Diogenes
I’d forgotten the one about her saying she was named after Sir Edmund. That was a classic. A large segment of that strange mind must be set aside for autobiographical fantasy.
I wonder what she tells the world leaders she meets?
cuppa
the Australian economy was kept out of the recession by the resource sector, pure and simple, just like it helped the Howard government over the years
As most of the world government was starting their stimulus, most of it required supplies from the resource sector. And China have not slowed down its appetite on Material. In fact the only thing that could stop this cash cow for Australia is the ETS.
And the resources sector in Australia is a strong one, build by investment and subsidies by previous governments (federal and state) and supported by a content workforce based on individual contracts
Just like most Labor cronies did not give much credit to Costello, If you think Swann had something to do with the economie, I have a ETS scheme to sell you
Diogenes – #1099
I know nothing of US politics. I assume what you say is absolutely correct.
If so, then she is a freakin habitual liar.
Might be time to make up some protest signs to greet her (if she is coming to Sydney).
I just cannot believe what I have just heard. I have been listening to Caroline Jones, whom i have always respected as a journalist and “spiritual” kind of person. She was speaking on ABC702 Midday about a book that she has written about her father who had died when he was 94.
She said his death had hit her very hard and made her realise that sadness is just as important as happiness in life. And you cannot be happy all the times.
Errrrr, am i missing something here? And it took the death of her father to discover this. My opinion of journalist is getting lower and lower. She should start singing the Blues, so you are happy at the moment when you are saddest. Come-on, Sweet Caroline you can do better than that.
PY
Those are the lies she has actually admitted to. She admitted to Bosnia as well. There are oodles she hasn’t admitted to, like her opposition to NAFTA when she gave lectures supporting NAFTA. The list is endless.
Peter Young
A simple placard with “HC = Heroine of Bosnia; Spirit of Everest” would be appropriate.
Hello bludgers (and Toothy)
Was 40C yesterday, too hot for being on computer so haven’t caught up yet, if this was covered yesterday apologies.
I see Tone has found Fed politics too hard and is auditioning for the Qld Opp lerader’s job
Also see the wangker has decided to pole dace back to earth. Wonder will the rellies be waiting at the bottom with a summons for the money he owes them? He could go from the pole to the pokie.
Also see all the Libs have got to harp on about STILL is Asylum seekers, sad tossers.
Except for Joe that is who is blaming home loan fall on kev & Swanny’s big spending. Wouldn’t have anything to do with the end of the first home loan boost would it Joe you think?
And the OO is trying to stop themselves from going broke I see,
Sales are downnnnnnnn, how sad
http://www.skynews.com.au/finance/article.aspx?id=416706
#1104
Well a self confessed habitual liar is marginally better than a habitual liar I guess.
JV – #1105
Thanks…I’ll use that (with your permission of course).
Whatever you do, do’nt mention the Liberal Recession! Amid the mistruths and excuses, not a word about the Liberals giving Australia its worst recession since the Great Depression, nor Howard’s Trifecta of Misery:
double-digit unemployment
double-digit interest rates
and double-digit inflation
The long-suffering people of Haiti are hit again.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6985798.ece
#1108
Damn – all placards cancelled.
Visiting Canberra and Melbourne only.
Touch down in Canberra on 17 January, next day Canberra and then brief visit to Melbourne.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/hillary-clinton-to-visit-australia-20100107-lv8o.html
As far as I am concerned, we do not welcome habitual liars to OZ.
Peter Y
I’ll miss Hillary’s arrival in Canberra by just a few days when I go down for the impressionists’ exhibition the following weekend, so she escapes the heroine worshipping PB placard holders – this time
Better get ris of those lying Greenies who said there was a massive oil slick off the WA coast which turned out to be algae
…since we produce plenty of our own. Though, fortunately at the moment, most are either out of office (Howard) or ineffective in office (Abbott).
Vera – #1113
Did they mis-spoke?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article3634746.ece
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2010/01/08/morgan-57-43-4/comment-page-23/#comment-387565
dovif mumbled:
Oh, so nothing to do with a quick-footed government and Treasury, you’re saying. Open the other eye. If the economy HAD gone down the chute I bet you’d have been among the FIRST here saying it was their “FAULT”.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/paying-the-price-for-having-it-good-and-for-so-long-20090225-8i1g.html
Sydney Morning Herald, 26 February 2009:
____
This piece hints at people such as dovif…
http://business.theage.com.au/business/its-all-been-very-stimulating-but-what-now-20090819-eqmd.html
The Age, 20 August 2009:
____
http://www.watoday.com.au/national/imf-smiles-on-rudds-stimulus-spending-20090306-8rhj.html?page=-1
WA Today, 6 March 2009
____
http://www.theage.com.au/national/turnbull-plan-risk-to-growth-20090205-7yzf.html?page=-1
The Age, 6 February 2009
____
14 February 2009
The Canberra Times quotes a number of bodies who commend the government and / or the second package. AMP Capital, Australian Industry Group, Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Housing Industry Association, Australian Council of Trade Unions, Australian Council of Social Service, Australian Conservation Foundation.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/recession-wont-be-stopped-itll-be-shallower-shorter/1433752.aspx?storypage=0
So we have numerous organisations from points all over the political compass commending Labor’s handling of the GFC. But from dovif, it was down to the “resources sector pure and simple”.
I suppose Coalition posters that aren’t Truth Hurters is out of the question??
Have caught up with yesterday’s posts and see the Obama worshiping Hillary haters have been out in force.
Amazing how a stong woman can threaten the masculinity of some of the weaker males of the species
Ron you are clear as a bell to me and the smartest PB ever
Don’t worry when those who are unable to match your brilliance resort to cheap shots about your spelling abilities.
r/Ron might be able to get to Canberra to greet her though. His placard would be (after encryption) something like:
“Hillary – thos bigar gooose possum j/v & Diogenes were very SELECTIV mockery indignatons , as usual”
#1117
ROTFLMAO
JV, went:
“Duck!”
If this keeps up Hillary will be Pres any day now
This would be the most worrying part of the pol I think
http://www.punchng.com/Articl.aspx?theartic=Art201001131365185
Possum
That’s 3 placards we’ve got composed already. One more and we’ve got a HC welcoming committee.
BW, Isadora Duncan to GB Shaw: “We should get married, imagine your brain and my body”. GBS: “My dear, as long as it is not YOUR brain and MY body”.
Ditto here, as long as, MY brain and HIS body
Vera – #1120
Be honest. A self confessed habitual liar is unelectable.
Other countries must treat her as a joke. She has no moral standing. They would assume all her speeches and communications were lies, and employ specialists to detect any rare pieces of truth.
The Finnigans @ # 1103
She said his death had hit her very hard and made her realise that sadness is just as important as happiness in life. And you cannot be happy all the times.
Errrrr, am i missing something here? And it took the death of her father to discover this
I think that you are being just a trifle hard here. There are many things that we “know” but don’t really “comprehend” until we experience them.
My on personal experience in this regard was when my eldest was born. I had always felt sympathy for those who had children that were harmed in any way. However, when we brought out first son home we found ourselves just popping into his room to make sure that he was ok every time such a story was on the news. It did not matter that we were had been there a few minutes earlier.
SIDS was all the rage then and though I had spent may hours raising funds for SIDS research my wife and I found ourselves checking our sons breathing for no other reason that we had not checked it for a while.
Our own personal experience brought into sharp focus the trauma that some people have to go through when their child is harmed.
It is one thing to know something in ones mind but to also feel it in your heart is another matter completely.
Loosing a parent is something that only happens to most of us twice in our lives. We all know it will happen but until it does it is something that we all push into the background hoping it will be well into the future, just like our own death.
PY
Bob Brown has no moral standing after criticising Kev for having a loan of a $3,000 ute and then begging for and accepting a cool couple of hundred grand from Dick Smith.
People in glass houses and all that.
Quick question on double standards for those with more enlightened minds.
Why is it that people could call George W. Bush a chimp and it was politically correct and funny, but if you call Barack Obama a chimp you are instantly deemed a neo-nazi racist kkk sympathiser.
Seems like double standards to me.
Vera- #1125
So you refuse to admit that HC is severely damaged goods – on the grounds that Bob Brown said something with which you disagree. Okay, I think I understand your way of thinking…….
vera @ # 1125
Bob Brown has no moral standing after criticising Kev for having a loan of a $3,000 ute and then begging for and accepting a cool couple of hundred grand from Dick Smith.
People in glass houses and all that.
Agree with you on this.
Am afraid that this little episode badly eroded Mr Browns standing in my mind. But even worse was the wholesale blitzkrieg by his followers to somehow justify and differentiate Mr Brown’s actions from Mr Rudd’s
This assault by the Greens faithful falls into the same category as Mr Brown’s hypocrisy.
Ratstar, death is a natural part of life, so is sadness and happpiness. They go all together. they are all equal value and necessary.
Ratsars – #1128
So you are justifying Hilary Clintons actions because someone else (in your view) did something wrong.
Get a grip on yourself…..the woman is a self confessed habitual liar. She seeks to strut the world stage. What a joke.
PY
You don’t want to admit your hypocricy on the fact that you critisise Hillary for having “no moral standing” but defend BB to the death regardless of his two faced actions.
Can’t have it both ways.
Hi Vera
I hav a list of over 100 Obama lies , ALL publlicly recorded by credable news sourses like ABC News , NY Times etc , and ALL directly from his own Obama mouth
which is why Obama was corectly labelled ….snake salesman , or if you like greasy , or slippery tongued
and this Hilary hating lot Obamaphiles quote just a misarable 4 !!!!
However there “game” Vera is to falsely revisit th PAST , which posters here and i acknowledge eg Gary here quite corectly want to alternitively deel with th CURENT
th VERY reason for Obamaphiles always wanting to revisitin th past is because th Ombamaphiles do NOT want to talk about th CURENT !
why ? because Obama alone is now patently guilty of anything he as POTUS stuffs up (and can be praised where he does not)
Now Obamaphiles can not handle such accountability of there man , because they hav been used to sniping or blaming everyone else but Obama So they keep revisin th past
Tough , Obama has has to wear th plus’s and minus’s of his POTUS reign , and there will be both
EXAMPLE of th Obamaphiles red herringly talking about Hilary and th past , rather than th CURENT:
I posted a very detailed post #825 yesterday about th proposed Obamacare Health Bill , showing that compared to our universal 100% cover oz one it is 1/2 crap
I showed per th 2009 US census that there were 47 million in USA uninsured , yet th Obamacare new Bill on DEMS own calcs (questonable) covers only 31 million so it covers only 85% , leaving 16 million uninsured , and a further approx 15 million under insured (vs oz universal 100% cover) So th new Health Bill is 1/2 crap
Also that th Insuranse is still mainly done by US Private Insurers whereas in oz its mainly th Govt Also th US Employers mainey cover people for Health whereas in oz its mainly th Govt
Now Obama had no guts to campaign for a universal 100% Health sytem like Bill Clinton did & tried to implement ( and as both John Edwards & Hillary campaigned four in 2008) Also I hav to add trucks of blames to th weasel Dems controled Congress they ar also a problam and ar pork barrelling weasels to interst groups But th Obama/Democrats 60 vote US Senate “majorty” will actualy disapear this Nov 2010 as th Dems will lose at least Democrats ND seat Then th excuse will be we Obama/Democrats hav not got a ‘majority ! Well they can eely try a corect universal Health Bill now , if comitment & strengh to stare down blue dog Dems etc
I said th proposed new US sytem was 1/2 crap because I truthfully admitted th existin one is a full crap one , but th new one is stil 1/2 crap vs our great Healthcare sytem thanks to Gough
What did th Obamaphiles do ? red herring th whole thread to Hilary alegedly lying/braging in 2008 about Bosnian snipar fire in 1996 !! I inforunate replied to there supafisial hypacritic indignant crap seeing all US politcans do lie , but they red herringed th whole thread for 6 hours , AWAY from th US Healthcare sytem subject
But Obamacare IS a curent issue , whereas th Obamaphiles inspirred irelevent 1996 Hilary sniper lie bit is th PAST long ago IF posters can not see “manipulaton , then i could schools them on reel englishs instead
That stupid comment on Hillary being severly damaged goods say it all really. She only happens to be probably the most powerfull woman in the world after Merkle
and do acept th major task of geting sucha Bill thru , but its a once in genraton control of Congres th Democrats NOW hav
Vera – #1131
Please don’t fall into the trap of mis-spoking.
1. I agree I have criticised Hilary Clinton for being a self confessed habitual liar.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article3634746.ece
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/hillarys_list_of_lies.html
2. I deny I have ever defended BB to the death in respect of his alleged “two faced actions”.
Even if assertion 2 were correct, which it isn’t, it would not alter the fact that Hilary Clinton is a self confessed liar.
[2. I deny I have ever defended BB to the death in respect of his alleged “two faced actions”.
Even if assertion 2 were correct, which it isn’t, it would not alter the fact that Hilary Clinton is a self confessed liar}
LOL
You deny defending BB then go ahead and defend him!
The Finnigans
Ratstar, death is a natural part of life, so is sadness and happpiness. They go all together. they are all equal value and necessary.
Agree entirely.
However we usually do not comprehend how much it hurts till we have experienced it and we don’t value our “blessings” till we loose them.
As an example I have never lost a child and hopefully I will not and that I will die well before my children (a parents blessing) leave this earth. Just the thought that my children could be harmed is distressing but I expect that that distress is nothing compared to the hurt one experiences when ones child die.
I hope that I never experience that pain.
As I mentioned earlier I think that you were a little hard in a women who still feels the pain of her father’s death
PY, for self confessed US politics ignoramus, you are doing very well with even more ignoramus. She has more qualifications to strut the world stage than Obama, that is why Obama begged to be his SOS, you ning nong as the Goons would say.
While we are on the topic of Obama, this is another big danger he faces: a review of the USA’s AAA credit rating by Fitch:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/debt-crisis-looms-for-us-public-finances-20100112-m4mx.html
It isn’t an overreaction; any other country in similar circumstances would already have faced this threat. Obama didn’t create this problem, but he had better get cracking to fix it because he will surely wear the fallout if it happens. He could do worse than follow the excellent policy advice of the Australian treasury
As for Ron’s comments, I agree. I am not anti-Obama but my first preference was Edwards and second Clinton. It was always suspicious to me how a Chicago democrat got as much money as Obama did so quickly.
#1139- Finnigans
I don’t know. Did Obama appoint her to the job because of purely political reasons – namely to buy off the Clinton machine – or did he really think she was the best available candidate for the job. I wonder.
Finns, let me see if I have understood you. The more qualifications on has the less one lies. The less education one has, the greater propensity one has to lie.
Socrates, as opposed to a New York democrat?
Finns
Hillary was the perfect choice for SOS.
1. Bill has lots of contacts.
2. Hillary has combat experience .
3. A diplomat is someone who is sent abroad to lie for their country. The SOS is the biggest diplomat in the world so who better than a pathological serial liar.
4. It gets her out of the way.
Diogenes, you DO have a sense of humour!
Socrates
Edwards turned out to be a walking haircut with no substance who was cheating on his wife who had cancer. If he won the primary, McCain would be president and Palin would VP.
Ron
I think you are right with all these smoke screens about Hillary’s lies. Like you say we could find lies told by most polititions if we looked.
Obama’s “yes we can” is worth a few lies as the suckers have found out that “no he can’t”
Gitmo is still open, he sent another 30,000 troops to Afghanastan after giving the impression he was against the war just to name a couple and the semozzle over the Heath care bill even though he has the numbers to pass it.
That’s why his poll ratings are dropping. people are finding out that a smooth talker isn’t worth much without actions to back up his flowery speeches.
Thus the talk is about stupid childish stuff like who Hillary said she was named after etc. to deflect attention.
Look at the difference between Rudd and Obama. Kev is still rating as high as ever over 2 yrs into the job. Yet he was criticised as being too dull and not a brilliant speaker like Obama.
Give me honest dullness anyday to flashy smooth speakers full of their own importance anyday
Catch you later ron, gotta go post some photos to my brother.
Peter Young @ # 1131
Ratsars – #1128
So you are justifying Hilary Clintons actions because someone else (in your view) did something wrong.
Get a grip on yourself…..the woman is a self confessed habitual liar. She seeks to strut the world stage. What a joke.
Get with the discussion Peter. I have made no mention in respect of M/s Clinton or her truthfulness or otherwise.
Your comments are in line with most things that come from the Greens in that it is misleading and irrelevant.
I was commenting on the lack of moral standing of Mr Brown and his devotees.
So Master Peter Young . I suggest you grow up and address the substance of my post if that is your wish rather the red herrings you like to toss around.
Ratsar
if this helps , from his own mouth
Peter Young
Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 12:33 pm | Permalink
Diogenes – #1099
“I know nothing of US politics.”
Ron @ # 1149
Ratsar
if this helps , from his own mouth
Peter Young
Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 12:33 pm | Permalink
Diogenes – #1099
“I know nothing of US politics.”
Thanks Ron.
However, that could apply to me as well.
That is why I generally try to keep quite when US politics are being discussed.
or Ratsar
I could giv you OBAMA’s opinion of Hilary when he apointd her , from hiss OWN Mouth
if it helps :
Barack Obama:
“She’s smart, she’s capable, she’s tough, she’s disciplined,” Obama reportedly told skeptical aides when he offered her the job of secretary of state. “She wouldn’t have to be taught or have her hand held. She wouldn’t have to earn her place on the world stage; she already had global stature. She pays attention to nuance. … and that’s what I want in a secretary of state, because the stakes are so high. I can’t have somebody who would put us in peril with one errant sentence.”
#1149 – Ron
But i am learning fast. And coming to it with an open mind I can clearly see that Hilary Clinton is a liar. In my view (see previous posts) such people should be shunned by the political system, in order to strive for higher standards. However, I appreciate that the US is culturally different to OZ in regards to standards. I think Obama was wrong to appoint her SOS for this reason, and I criticise him for failing to have the guts to cut her and the Clinton machine adrift. However, I understand, had he not done so, his presidency would have probably been undermined by the Clinton machine – and in his wisdom possibly considered appointing her the best option. That is by way of explaining his behaviour. I am not excusing it.
Ratstar, I have lost both of my parents. Have not lost a child as yet, but my OH has quite a number of miscarriages. Do you call them children?
I just feel coming from CJ, it was such a shock because i thought she was very spiritual person, and for a spiritual person, death is almost “joyful” to be released from this miserable world. I certainly dont want any “sadness” when i die, i want them to be happy and sing the songs that I like to hear, like “The Wayfaring Stranger”. Cheers.
Further to William’s recent update about campaign finance reform comes this article from the Fairfax online press:
http://www.watoday.com.au/national/no-reform-for-political-funding-20100113-m5je.html
Diog, i know you are happiest at Hillary Bashing time. It’s bit like us frolicking in the Deep Blue. Enjoy your 5 mins of sunshines.
PY
“That is by way of explaining his Obama’s behaviour.”
see you posted 3 minutes after me , my #1151 , now you look a biger gooose ,
as does ALL th negativ posters coments made today about Hilary qualificatons look like politcaly naive , or biased rosecolourd glasses , or both so to speak
Ron
Interestingly when bill was caught out telling porky’s to hilary,she made him sleep on the couch for 6 weeks.
He was potus then
and cactus as well.
#1151 – Ron
An employer once told me - I don’t care to much for what a job reference says about a person. I read a reference to see what it doesn’t say about a person.
And reading Obama’s job reference for Hilary – I notice it says nothing about “honesty”.
That employer would have concluded the job applicant was a liar.
Perhaps Dio was right – Obama was seeking someone who could lie.
Unfortunately she is a very bad liar, and a self confessed habitual liar. So he may have made a bigar goooose of himself by choosing her.
“So he (Obama) may have made a bigar goooose of himself by choosing her.”
well PY , you hav single handedly pissed off both hilary and obama suporters here in one stupid coment , thats quite an achievment
just re-read #1151 again , as your #1159 coments vs Obama’s #1151 ACTUAL words , mean one of youse need therapy , and my money is on you sorry I will NOT reply its now spam
am gonna find a boerwar quote i seen earlier insteads
Someone asked why US Secretary of State Clinton is coming to Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/13/2791545.htm?section=justin
Her we ar :
Boerwar
Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 11:24 am | Permalink
“As flagged on PB, Abbott has backflipped ON the whales.”
out ON th oceans on th whales no doubt about it , in his budgies what doing triple somosalts , a site to see
Boerwar you selfish bastard , you could hav you-tubed and sharred a whale of sa time with th Abbott visuals
The Finnigans @ # 1153
Ratstar, I have lost both of my parents. Have not lost a child as yet, but my OH has quite a number of miscarriages. Do you call them children?
I am in the same boat as you in that I have lost both my parents as well. My farther went out of his way to try and prepare his children for this event. Though it hurt I was more prepared than my brother who even after 10 years does not accept our father’s death in his heart. In his mind it is clear as anything that our farther is dead but in his heart he is having difficulties.
As for miscarriages, my wife and I are lucky in that we did not have any so I think that whatever I may say my lack credibility. Weather you call them children or not is up to you and your wife and no one else, What you two say is the reality for you and the rest of us should mind our own business and accept whatever decision you make.
I just feel coming from CJ, it was such a shock because i thought she was very spiritual person, and for a spiritual person, death is almost “joyful” to be released from this miserable world. I certainly dont want any “sadness” when i die, i want them to be happy and sing the songs that I like to hear, like “The Wayfaring Stranger”. Cheers.
I think that being a “spiritual person” does not quarantine one from the pain of loss.
I also think that most of us want our funeral to be a celebration of our live and our loves. I am reminded of the movie the “Shawshank Redemption”. After Andy escapes his friend was pleased that he was free but still he missed having Andy around.
I think that life is like that because happiness and sadness are two different sides of the same coin. We all react differently and this is the way it should be because we are all individuals who perceive things differently
The French saying “vive la difference” which is usually meant to apply to the difference between the sexes applies to us all. This is one of human kinds greatest strengths.
Finns
Looks like you might not get Google in China in future.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/google-threatening-to-lea_n_420857.html
#1161
No doubt our PM will have his bulldust detector finely tuned and fully operational during the discussions.
Hillary will probably tell Rudd that it was a Mary McKillop miracle that saved her from Bosnian sniper fire.
Brilliant JV!
Hillary did have that seance with Eleanor Roosevelt in the solarium on top of the White House when she was First Lady. Perhaps she met Mary MacKillop through Lady Bird.
For all of you that like rolling around in the mud with Barack, Hillary, and assorted others, today’s Crikey Squatter’s edition should keep you more than happy for a little while. The story is headed “4. Politicians behaving badly: all the juicy news from Game Change”. I can’t link to the story but could paste it for those suffering withdrawal symptoms. It has been 5 minutes after all.
Poss,you have caught the Diog’s disease.
Finns
It’s all those rotting mangos
Maybe Finns, but it’s still pretty funny!
Ron
*grins*
#1168
The more I learn about Hillary Clinton…the more I see she is a freakin’ lunatic. God help America.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/when-hillary-channeled-eleanor-roosevelt
But then on 2nd thoughts the whole American political system might be freakin’ lunacy. I feel sick on the stomach after reading this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1242526/Game-Change-Book-detailing-affairs-John-Edwards-Bill-Clinton-sends-shock-waves-Washington.html
Geez.. we have a lot to be thankful for in Oz.
Gus
ya posted just after i went out , like it
but made me remeber Fraser saying against Hawke dont trust Hake , hides your undr th Beds and Hawkee replies , cann’t ddo that , thats where th commies ar !
thought of that with your post
Gusface
Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 at 3:10 pm | Permalink
“Ron Interestingly when bill was caught out telling porky’s to hilary,she made him sleep on the couch for 6 weeks.”
but thats where his mistress’s ar
where that smiley come , i did do nothings
It’s the worn face of the syntax angel, I think, after another impossible day.
William might like this page dedicated to Albert Studios which includes a piece on the recording of Player 1′s “Space UInvaders”- one of his youthful faves
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~tabbler/PicBk/Alb2PicM.html
I imagine the Liberals will be doing some Hillary bashing of their own next week, and Abbott will whine that he was snubbed by her LOL
And what a shame she isn’t coming to Sydney, I’m a big Hillary fan, I’d love to see her in the flesh!
Note the priorities of “Radio Liberal”: ignore the Haiti earthquake disaster, and instead sanctify Peter Spenser & complain that Rudd is sending terrorist boat people to attack our country.
Peter Spencer HAD to come down – it was becoming pretty obvious that he wasn’t looking like any other hunger striker after 7 weeks! If he kept going I fancy even Barnaby may have had a hard time keeping a straight face. Remember that a fit 27 year old Bobby Sands died after 66 days, and he was not exposed to the elements.
Rocket
Spencer was looking so good he must have been secretly praying to Mary MacKillop.
evan14
#1181
you like Socrates ar a fine judge of a person with expert skills and of th highest integrity Obama in his own words quotd in post #1151 agrees with you
she has todate declined to agree to plakards placed throughout th City proclaiming “j/v , Pontforte and th Dentistt , you ar wRONg”
I dont know who this Margaret Simons character is on Crikey, but what a stupid question to ask, Why would any pay for vanilla news from Murdoch News which are freely available else where.
As far as the so called “value add” pieces by his Journos and Commentators, they are not independent thinkers, they are purely echoing their Master’s voice. Unless, this perception is changed, why would anybody pay.
Just because he re-structured his business, it does not mean he knows what he is doing with the online content. Re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic is also re-structuring.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/01/13/murdochs-grand-paywall-experiment-will-aussies-pay/
The odd thing about the clearing issue is that the country that Spencer is talking about is generally not worth clearing – unless your intent was to clear it so that you could grow trees back on it for CO2 credits. The latter would not, self-evidently, be in the national interest.
If it is like the rest of the inland slopes of the Gread Dividing Range you might be adding some dryland salinity issues to the MDB by clearing it. Maybe not. Given the slopes involved, you would almost certainly be adding to river siltation and to the 45,000 or thereabouts erosion gullies that are such a blot on the inland slopes.
Other than that, the uncleared country thereabouts is maybe OK for goat farming, maybe not even that.
Not that the city fellas running the TV networks news would have a clue about any of that sort of thing.
It has been enjoyable watching Joyce and Heffernan have a difference of opinion about Spencer. Joyce comes out as the vote-slut; Heffernan the reasonable policy person. Amazing.
Finns @ 1186
Marg Simons is a former Fairfax journo – and a pretty smart one IMO.
She’s made a bit of a career of recent years commenting on the media industry.
Boerwar
A mate of mine ran goats up near Cooma for a while, his prize ram died. He tried to bury it but the ground was so rocky and hard he had to give up after 6 hours of digging with a mattock. The ram’s horns were visible for years, sticking up out of the ground.
Finns
If it is pay-for-piece I might pay for George M. from time to time. That would be about it. There is plenty of unintended humour in the OO but I wouldn’t be paying for it online on the offchance that I come across the funny bits.
I suspect that there are enough corporate accounts and other tax deduction accounts to enable the Australian to more-or-less maintain something like its current readership.
ruawake
*huge grin*
Boerwar
Yesterday I heard Heffernan being interviewed on the ABC about Spencer’s situation.
I hate to say it , but he came across as a voice for reason on matters agricultural.
Bill Bowe any news on the wordpressy plugin thingos?
On a totally off topic subject. Has anyone for a cordless mouse that does not die after 12 months of heavy use? I’ve got a logitec that thinks a single click is a double click, a snappy MS “natural” mouse that has decided the right click plastic bit should break.
Am I hoping for too much?
Any of our Tassie posters know much about this new group and the liklihood of them having an impact in the coming Tasmanian election. I’ve always felt there was an opportunity for a political Party between the Libs and Labor.
http://www.examiner.com.au/news/local/news/politics/proposed-party-wants-probe-into-pulp-mill/1722682.aspx
I’ve got a Microsoft Cordless Mouse/Keyboard combo, and since I got it in december, the mouse batteries have needed changing every 3 weeks or so, while the keyboard batteries are the originals.
I’m now going to buy a $15 wired mouse and use that instead.
#1186
Margaret Simons is a former journalist of long-standing with The Age and feature writer with The Australian, published novelist, author of numerous books on politics and journalism, writer of the Crikey journalism blog The Content Makers, and is currently working with Malcolm Fraser on his memoirs. Like everyone else in journalism, she does not write her own headlines.
GG
Take a look at http://www.esparty.org/ very amatuerish at the moment.
GG from whois
Registrant Name:Arnold Besser
Registrant Organization:Arnold Besser
Registrant Street1:6 Henry St
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Plympton
Registrant State/Province:Tas
Registrant Postal Code:5038
Registrant Country:AU
ruawake
Challenging territory. Your mate was stuck on the horns between a rock and a hard place.
I guess this Spencer fellow would be called a Libertarian in the US. You know, the great principle of every individual able to do whatever they want without any interference from the government, which is always conspiring to find ways to thwart independent spirit etc. etc. Down that path lies the militia movements, such as Posse Comitatus Hhmmm … that sounds vaguely familiar…
William Bowe @ 1196
Hear Hear!
William,
So, you’re not a journalist.
Are you an entertainer?
Ru,
Thanks for that. Would be still interested if the locals have any goss too.
The new ES party looks like a Democrats wing of the environment movement. Just the thing to snare those mythical and elusive doctors’ wives. Although I believe Diogenes knows of one that exists.
I wonder how many tens of millions, or maybe hundreds of millions, Murdoch has spent on The Australian of the years.
It has never made money, it has always existed as an extention of Rupe’s ego. Spinning it off into a separate entity will spell its doom, but not until Rupe goes to the big press in the sky.
I have a card from the Australian Journalists Association with “journalist” written on it, though I’m not sure how much that proves. I gather that if I rang them and asked for a new one saying “circus clown” (another vocation covered by the Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance), they’d send one to me no questions asked.
I gather David “Outrage” Cohen would be the best person to speak about this William (and yes he does read this august publication)
You can’t get William he’s part of the union.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs
Bilbo
Not a clown
Surely you jest
William,
I would have thought running PB would qualify you as a high wire trapeze artist operating sans the safety net.
#1207
We’re generally not such natty dressers in the AJA these days, alas.
But will we see William starring in the Libs next Ad Campaign along with certain members of the WA Branch of the CFMEU ?
JV
If I was studying politics, I’d write my thesis on ” Doctor’s Wives Demographic: The Loch Ness Monster or Moby Dick of Australian politics?”.
People are always saying they exist and predicting what they will do and how they will change elections. But no-one has actually seen any evidence they exist.
Perhaps they do exist but no-one has ever been able to catch one and there are lots of Captain Ahabs in politics.
And to think he’s in such illustrious company as Andrew Bolt and Howard Sattler
Andrew Bolt, Howard Sattler, and William. The real 3 Amigos
George Mega disagrees with me on the existence of “doctors’ wives” (who aren’t literally doctors’ wives) but doesn’t really provide any proof despite an interesting article.
The definition is a problem. If you can’t accurately define something, it’s hard to discuss it meaningfully.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/the-decisive-doctors-wives-effect-is-in-full-swing/story-e6frg6z6-1111113088836
Frank, you leave Howard S alone, you bully.
He’s one of us now, having travelled the Damascene road, as is evidenced by the WAtoday link you posted earlier.
I just had to comment on his blog on his enlightenment.
Do male doctors have defactos Diog, or is it too risky to sleep with a woman not your wife in case they cry “patient” when the relationship is over?
Diog
are you saying doctors don’t have wives??
Always knew they were an immoral lot.
Diogenes
Indeed. Maybe this new ES mob will capture from the major parties some social conservatives who want action on the environment.
I think that might be who these alleged “DW’s” might be: social conservatives who are more progressive or ‘soft left’ in one or two areas of their interest.
Maybe Antony G will give us his views if he’s around on the likely impact of the party in tassie’s unique system. The last poll I can find on Antony’s site in Tassie was back in August and it looked a little ominous for Labor at that time.
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2009/08/new-emrs-opinion-poll-in-tasmania.html#more
I doona tink noone ned doin ani Hilary bashin. Ani iteligenentsia persun woud onli ave contemptable feelins 4 er. She is a walkin condamation for erself. Our PM willave his bullduster machun going fullon wit er in the rooom. Ani oztralian ppls searchin fer a hero shud b lookin elswhere.She aint no Mary McKillop.
I actually recall Howard Sattler sending Stuart Littlemore a photocopy of his AJA card in order to prove I don’t know what exactly – my comment at 1205 was inspired by Littlemore’s response.
That’s a very good idea, though having spent months on end poring through booth and census results, I’m less skeptical about the phenomenon than you are. One federal electorate I know very well indeed is Stirling in Perth’s northern suburbs, where I grew up (to the extent that I can be said to have done so). See my 2007 electorate profile for the seat and click on the map, so the 2004 2PP vote figures change to swing figures. One of the few red numbers you see is the booth that services the fairly affluent area of Karrinyup where I hail from. The blue 6.0 to its south and 5.1 to its east denote areas of urban infill which brought in mortgage-paying McMansion owners. All the other booths west of the socio-economic dividing line of the Mitchell Freeway swung hardly at all. Notoriously low-rent Balga and Mirrabooka in the north-east swung heavily to the Liberals.
More recently I’ve been plotting the course of individual booths in South Australia across recent federal and state elections, and consistently found that toffy-nosed areas like Kensington were markedly better for Labor relative to the South Australian total at the 2004 and 2007 federal elections than they were at the 2002 and 2006 state elections. In the new suburbs covered by Kaurna, the trend went massively in the opposite direction.
The doctors’ wives effect was real enough, it’s just that too many extravagant claims were made for it – talk of the Liberals losing North Sydney, Higgins and Ryan, for example. I have a theory that this was partly fuelled by errant local opinion polls which were skewed by the tendency for educated voters to indulge in “tactical voting” when responding to pollsters’ questioning – a topic perhaps for another thesis.
JV, see here for my post on a more recent Tasmanian EMRS poll.
William
The advantage in being a “journalist” is that none of your membership fees are donated to Labor. On the other hand fees from “circus clowns” are donated to Labor.
1220 Peter Young – More chirlish rubbish. Grow a brain. Ron communicates the best way he knows how and for his trouble he has to put up with juvemile rot like this.
juvemile = juvenile
GB
Hear, hear.
Ron has been a valued contributor to PB for many years, if you care to ignore the grammar and spelling dictated to us by the invention of the printing press his words are coherent and make sense.
We would all be wRONg if not for Ron.
Gary, chirlish = churlish.
Ther is a U in churl, as in yoUng.
William
Thank you. It’s even worse for Labor with some of the undecideds moving out to the Libs since the August poll. Still, it’s hard to know how those figures pan out in a Hare-Clark election.
Thanks FS. That bloody keyboard.
#1224 Gary Bruce
Y shud I no adop the nu wai of ritin. It cleerli as had a faviribe impreshon on u.
FS – There is an e on the end of ther as in PEtEr.
Ther = there.
Grammar, spelling and punctuation is a thing of the past imposed on people by type setters.
1230 – You’re a lot younger than I thought.
GB, Lol.
Bk
I know, scary isn’t it, bit like curious case of Benjamin Buttons, Heiferman getting more sensible as he gets older.
Noticed he first started posting when School Holidays started ?
Does his mummy know what he’s doing ? 
GB, we’ve got to decide which of us is the straight man.
Senator Hanson-Young has uttered this gem today:
“”Australian companies, our Australian Government need to send a very strong message to Beijing that we do not do business with human rights abusers.”
I’m sure Barnaby would agree with her.
So what countries are left for us to do business with?
#1238
New Zealand.
Animal rights abuses are in a different basket.
#1238
New Zealand.
Animal rights abuses are in a different basket.
Another day…. another boat.
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/another-boat-carrying-42-people-arrives-off-christmas-island/story-e6frg12c-1225818767968
PY
You don’t do business with NZ, you instigate a hostile takeover.
Yeah.
It just clicked … Peter must related to the redoubtable HansenhyphenYoung.
The familial characteristics are obvious – immaturity, brashness, smugness, righteousness …
What,steal their prize rams?
Could not give a continental TTH.
Truthy,
You may have missed the bit about the boats not making it to Australia, under Howard it was common to find poor boaties wandering around after having made it to Oz.
My favorite line on New Zealanders was Derryn Hinch’s definition of them:
Somebody who can’t get a job in Australia.
Normally don’t have much time for Hinch, but I liked that one.
William
What definition are you using of the “doctors’ wives” demographic?
Without exit polling like they do in the US, it’s very hard to pin down a demographic. The Parties probably get better data on demographics of education, income etc to detect trends but we don’t see them.
Truthy,
:lol::lol:
I don’t like you.
Everytime I get on a roll getting abused by heaps of people you turn up and take the spotlight away.
Another day, another hate speech.
How do you live with yourself?
self importance …
How many Doctors actually live in the leafy, affluent suburbs their wives are supposed to vote in? Would directors wives or board members wives be more accurate?
The most appropriate would be dividend wives
Quite a few Doctors/Specialists in WA live in the Electorate of Curtin and in the Hills wich encompass Pearce & Hasluck and possibly Canning.
FS
There are always records of who’s a patient in the form of casenotes so no-one can cry patient falsely.
I mean professionals and those of otherwise established wealth. There are of course all sorts of problems with the term “doctors’ wives”, not least its unpleasant gender politics, but it happens to be what has caught on to describe the particular phenomenon where a certain type of affluent voter soured on the Liberal Party in the later part of the Howard years.
Try areas like the Seats of Perth, plus the others I mentione and possibly Fremantle.
That makes sense.
I have too much to do with Doctors, I see a lot of them. None of them are wealthy, they probably make about the same as a good brick layer or a MYOB consultant.
Sad really.
Spaces Peter Young spaces
It helps with the coding … as well as the ….
Don’t make me laugh Rua. Have a guess at the average GP’s income.
There have always been a group of wealthy people who are quite philanthropic with a strong social conscience. I’m not sure they have switched from Lib to Labor. A lot of them would have always been Labor, Green, Democrat or X in Adelaide.
William @ 1257
Quite right. I did some research around the time of the Tampa and found that the group which was most concerned about the issue were well-educated women, older, usually wives of professionals from inner affluent suburbs. They also tended to be sympathetic to voting Green – based on human rights issues rather than the environment. The term “doctors wive’s” shouldn’t be taken literally, few were actually doctor’s wives.
Exhibit A:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/6659796/minister-backflips-on-hoon-laws/
Frank
I can assure you that the Dr with the Lamborghini didn’t get it from clinical work. He might be a doctor-businessman who owns lots of GP clinics.
Frank – #1264
I think that mechanic is gunna have the rrrrrs sued off him. Hire of a Lamborghini for a month (necessary to make house calls) is gunna be a tidy sum.
On what basis do you “assure us” Dio? Care to have guess at what GP’s actually earn?
More Greens hypocrisy exposed.
http://catallaxyf.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/are-the-greens-greedy-capitalists-like-the-rest-of-us/
#1268
That was an interesting article GG. Until I got to the sentence:
People who hang out in the Vatican say a lot of stupid things, but none stupider than when they turn into bad film critics:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/vatican-slams-avatar-prom_n_419949.html
William
if you ar around here , saw your post re kensington 2004 2007 fed vs 2002 2006 states of better four Federal labor , but in reversal were those booths beter for Labor Federaly in th 2004 and 2007 electons compared to th other booths in those Federal electons ?
And re doctors wives especialy re potential of Hockey in 2010 electon in N Syd , is it posible th demographic is not doctors wives and not professonal females eithr , but instead non professonal females of professonals say doing charity or fund raising work and so more likely logic to be sosialy orientated than eithr of th other 2 female groups i mentiond ? if so wondring if such stats ar available for N Syd
Also does th AJA descriminate and not cover just plain old ordinary “clowns”
#1271
Ron .. its the MAEA (Media Arts and Entertainment Alliance) – not the AJA.
oops that should have been (MEAA) Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance……..silly me.
AJA still exists as part of MEAA. That’s what is says on the membership card PY.
And yet another own goal by young Peter
Ron, despite the unfortunate terminology that has caught on to describe the phenomenon, I don’t think gender has much to do with it. It’s to do with class – the old money established wealthy suburbs versus the nouveau riche ones further from the city.
Is swing voter analogous to doctors wives?
Or is it used as a form of weasel words in Lib electorates?
The boats didn’t come under Howie, thats just an undeniable truth.
Gus, “swing voters” is an American term. We usually call them “swinging voters”, which really puzzles the Americans.
Troothy @ 1278
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s21590.htm
In 1999, boat people came ashore at Cairns and Coffs Harbour.
Another one of these for Troothy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU15oPVh7Xw
Winston
I was hoping to find where the term swing/ing voter sits vis a vis “doctors wives’
My experience is that DW is used only in Lib seats.
QED
Is it used as a weasel word to otherwise say swing/ing voter?
Winston , and they call them Swing States (or batleground states)
and TheTruthHurts
“undeniable truth.”
curous if there is a “denial truth”
William
thanks
re “the old money established wealthy suburbs versus the nouveau riche ones further from the city.” , has there been any sugeston of a reason , like maybe younger or by employment type in those outer ones , or is it so far unexplaind as past wealthy often went blue , well before some change happened to inner suburbs land values
Gus, as I alluded to previously there is a demographic which has been termed “doctor’s wives” (but is actually educated women who are concerned with issues of human rights) whose vote is influenced by issues such as asylum seekers. They tend to live in affluent suburbs – which include Lib seats but also inner Labor suburbs. And is why the Greens poll well in these electorates.
Winston
thx for telling me what i already know
Both lib and thx to winston,green as well?
Gosh, gus, aren’t you lucky that Winston’s around to tell you these things?
You learn something every day.
Ron, the thesis goes that what Judith Brett calls the moral middle class were repelled by the Howard government’s policies on refugees, Iraq and climate change, whereas what I just called the nouveau riche were attracted by the first of these, as well as by low interest rates and prosperity in general.
Gus, it’s a pleasure.
bilbo, according to the CCCP Central Committee, Australia is a classless society
I agree,we need more class less crass
Has Gough Whitlam watched Balibo yet?
Troothy
I thought your shore leave was over?
Our occidental Xanadu needs your proven prowess with a tinnie.
How can i sleep at night knowing that our veritable land of milk and honey could come under assault at any minute by nuggetty never-do-wells.
Only troothy can save the day!
Quick to the tinnie and may your evinrude start first pull.
William
an intersting read , thanks Judith Brett was doing th 20th Century and book ended with Howard at th hieght of his powers
I wonder whether her concluson may hav varied had she seen th more conservative Howard years from 2004 re workchoises and civil liberties (like haneef & hicks) & Refugee polisys (temp visa’s etc) or indeed iraq vs a Fraser or Menzies less conservative thread
also wonder whether that moral middle class of virtues & qualities she explaind as oposed to th econamic & sosial roles and values that alot define as middle class is gradualy changing more to th later (unlike her view) with th steady generatonal attitude changes of th generations X , Y and Z from more broad disciplined religous and rigid based ones But consede those 3 issues that repelled fit alot of her thesis
Did Peter Spenser raise enough of the folding stuff with his little stunt, to pay of the Fam?
no , but he paid for th pole from it
@1270, I’m surprised the Vatican didn’t bag the sheer eroticism of Avatar
give me a tail any day! yay!
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/cabinet-border-security-committee-meets-as-another-boatpeople-arrives/story-e6frgczf-1225818917897
HA!! This guy is a right royal comedy act. “Temporary peak” eh???
You couldn’t write this material if you tried, he really is a joke.
1274 & 1275
Maybe it does.
However, I am not sure that the “AJA” still exists.
Certainly there are “sections” within the MEAA, but my understanding was the section applicable to journalists is referred to as the Journalists section, rather than the AJA section.
The union has branch offices in all states and is made up of separate sections so that each of the diverse occupations it embraces can control their own affairs and protect their professional autonomy. The union offers the infrastructure to members to run their own campaigns. Members of each section directly elect representatives to Branch Council and the Alliance’s supreme governing body, Federal Council. There is usually a local delegate or house committee at each workplace providing the vital link between members and the branch and federal offices. Also, active sectional committees for groups like performers and freelancers provide opportunities for dealing with important policy and professional issues affecting their work.
http://www.alliance.org.au/option,com_simplefaq/task,display/Itemid,27/catid,13/
It is the MEAA which is the body registered as a Union and the party to awards, not the “AJA”. Likewise it is the MEAA which is affiliated to the International Federation of Journalists, not the “AJA”. It is the MEAA that is trustee for the Walkley awards, not the “AJA”.
The Code of Ethics published by the AJA was known as “Code of Ethics of the Australian Journalists Association” whereas it is now known as “Media Alliance Code of Ethics”.
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~jour/documents/ethics2.html
http://www.alliance.org.au/media_alliance_code_of_ethics/
Workers are members of the MEAA, although through that membership they may be part of the Journalists section.
[Any of our Tassie posters know much about this new group and the liklihood of them having an impact in the coming Tasmanian election. I’ve always felt there was an opportunity for a political Party between the Libs and Labor.
http://www.examiner.com.au/news/local/news/politics/proposed-party-wants-probe-into-pulp-mill/1722682.aspx
GG, my sister and brother-in-law are members. I suspect they would vote Green second and then Labor. Dr Petrovsky (former teacher of mine) says she thinks it’s a bit late to have an impact in the March election, but they might get a candidate up.
I would think they’re people largely disillusioned with the major parties here (as are most of us), especially in the ethics area, and have strong conservation values. And they’d lean much further to the left than the right.
That’s all I know at this stage, but I’ll contact her and find out more.
Sydney City Council leads the way again !!!
Lprd Mayor Clover Moore MP has outlined the councils plans on carbon reduction:-
”Our target is a minimum of 48 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from our properties by 2012.”
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/citys-new-seat-of-power-20100113-m71q.html
It is unlikely many will forget Labor’s plan to take control of the city in 2004 when it sacked and forcibly amalgamated the Sydney and South Sydney Councils and then ran a high profile team in the ensuing elections, led by former federal minister Michael Lee. Fortunately, the plan did not come to fruition and the city has been saved from developers greed,
Speaking of doctors with Lamborghinis (Diogenes @ 1265), it seems that Dr Geoffrey Edelsten has a range of snappy European sports cars.
(Sorry, I should have said Prof Dr Geoffrey Edelsten.)
Zoomster@1280:
That reporter was geographically challenged.
It landed on the beach at Scotts Head, well south of Coffs.
The funnel is still there, in front of the supermarket and bottle shop at Scotts Head.
They saw lights on shore (and Scotts Head is not a big metropolis!) and beached the boat.
They dressed in their best clothes, suits and ties for the men, good shoes, and carried no denomination larger than $50 australian.
One went into the bakery at Scotts Head, tried to buy something with a $50 note, and the baker was suspicious – suit, tie, chinese appearance, heavy accent. Contacted the police.
The boat was found in the morning on the beach.
They were strung out along the road to Macksville, looking for a (Sydney) train station. It would have been a long walk, the next train station is at Nambucca Heads.
The boat was sold to a scrap metal merchant, who cut the steel up for BBQ plates, a fitting end for the trip to Oz.
no denomination larger than $50 = no denomination smaller than $50
The threat of placard waving Amigo’s greeting Hillary at the airport has scared the bejesus out of her – she’s canceled the trip to Oz!
People Power wins again !!!!
Poss
Cruel but true.
Well, there youse goes, Poss – the Amigo’s have got more clout than thought.
Zoomster – George Mega’s piece the other day about journos being the direct source of all good information was for the benefit of Rupe’s new ‘pay as you go’ option.
Of course George would probably be the only one I’d pay for but I don’t want to have the likes of Stutchbury in my face too. Must admit I’d like the little book reader thingy but with better stuff than Murdoch’s in it.
Whoops Amigos – 1308. I meant ‘than some thought’. I know you 4 have lots of thoughts.
ron – your comments to William re DW were interesting. Taa.
William has there been any progress with improving the software on this site to allow preview and editing after posting, as well as “click on” emoticons and easy quoting?
You promised last year you would look into it.
Yeah William – get on to it!
I applaud Obama for telling his SOS to cancel her trip to Australia. The people of Haiti need her a lot more than we do. BTW Bill Clinton is the UN special envoy to Haiti so the Clintons have a special interest in that sad country.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/clinton-cancels-australia-visit-to-lead-haiti-relief-effort/story-e6frg6so-1225819124172
Here’s a balanced ABC News article.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792098.htm?section=justin
Article by Dr Anne Junor, Associate Professor and Deputy Director of the Industrial Relations Research Centre at the Australian School of Business.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2791429.htm
Poss@1311:
Poss, you can’t talk! Your site is just as bad!
Get on to it, Poss, and shame William into doing something here as well!
Don, if William got such a thing, it would actually be rolled out as an option across all the Crikey blogs (because we’re effectively one large blog with individual sub-blogs at the backend)
I’d love to have it – but I’d love even more for William to do the work to get it!
But Poss who has more clout? Who has been quoted in Hansard?
Oh dear, the Libs will be furious.
http://www.theage.com.au/business/jobless-rate-drops-to-55-20100114-m81o.html
Musrum – we PBers will have to work hard this year to get them both quoted in Hansard.
Just think how important we could feel then!!
GB – I guess Joe and Barnaby will now come out raving about interest rates having to go up because Rudd can’t control the employment market properly.
Rox @1300,
Thank you.
You can count on it BH. They are sooo predictable.
Gb – I’m looking forward to the Heffernan/Joyce standoffs this year. Who would’ve thunk that old Bill would sound more sensible than Barnyard altho Bill has been much more reasonable since he stopped doing Howard’s dirty work.
Poss, the Amigos called the WH last night and gave Obi some advice on how to improve his International standings: “Dont send a boy to do the job of a man, send a Lady instead”. He did.
So there you are Poss, the Amigos care for the Amigos from the Phillipinas to the Carribbeans where the trade wind blows.
OH NOES! A second stolen generation! Will Rudd apologise for this one as well?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/white-grandmother-wins-custody-of-tiwi-kids/story-e6frg6nf-1225819009605
Who woulda thought a healthy, educated, stable “whitey” family would be more appropiate for young children than alcohol and drug ridden squatter camps where children are frequently abused?
I call outrage!
Finns
Pat Robertson says if the Haitians had remained slaves that it wouldn’t have happened.
What can you say? How low can you go? Then again, he’s a Holocaust denier as well so he’s really living in the sewer.
[American televangelist Pat Robertson has blamed the devastating earthquake in Haiti on a pact between the impoverished nation's founders and the devil.
It is feared that up to 100,000 people may have lost their lives when the magnitude 7.0 earthquake flattened massive areas of the capital Port-au-Prince yesterday.
Speaking on his television program The 700 Club, Mr Robertson said the pact happened "a long time ago in Haiti".
"They were under the heel of the French, you know Napoleon III [sic] and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil,” he said.
“They said ‘We will serve you if you will get us free from the prince.’ True story.
“And so the devil said, ‘OK it’s a deal’. And they kicked the French out.”
Mr Robertson said after the pact, the Haitians “revolted and got something – themselves free”.
“But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after another,” he said.
Haiti won its independence from France in 1804 after a slave rebellion.]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792164.htm?section=world
The very young looking GG of Canada was born in Haiti. Just watch a teary speech by her on CNN.
but of course:
http://twitter.com/JoeHockey/status/7729046760
Very sad news about Haiti. I am comparatively ignorant about the country. Is the government more reasonable now than the notorious Bab-Doc Duvalier regime?
Obviously it will need massive aid now. In a perverse way the earthquake, as with the tsunami in Aceh, might bring the opportunity to create social and economic reform for Haiti if it is done well. Regardless of the politics Haiti is a basket case economically.
Good news on unemployment, Kev and Swanny rule!
Checked out Skynews and Gilbert was interviewing Penny trying his hardest to back up Abbott that CC has lost impact and asked Pen was she worried that Tone’s message was catching on re no need for ETS.
Penny was he usaual calm sensible self and put Gilbert in his place, saying an ETS penalised the poluters and Abbott was wanting to penalise the people, families, pensioners etc.
Gilbert was all excited that Abbott is going to give a speech tonight, the first of many in the weeks ahead apparently.
That should be pass the popcorn type entertainment
Sky also had a headline saying the Greens want Aust to boycot China!
WTF! Our biggest trading partner?
The Greens and Barnaby thinking alike again. It’s scary to think people defend and vote for the nutters!
Amigos are patient. We can wait until Hillary attends to her duties with the relief effort in Haiti.
She will come and see us another time
The curry is aint half hot Mum. Bollywood is now Brollywood.
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/indian-militant-group-threatens-australian-cricketers-after-attacks-20100113-m722.html
On the good news front the job news really is very good:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792138.htm?section=justin
The ABC says the figures (30,000 new jobs in december; unemployment rate back down to 5.6%) were “stunning”. (Maybe they meant “appalling”, depending on the views of the psoter). I suppose Abbott will now switch to the threat of rising interest rates now the unemployment scare campaign is dead before it started.
This is good news because
- it shows last months figures were not an abberation; employment is growing again
- it neuters the debate about immigration and racism in the short term
- the budget deficit will now be far less; the other coalition scare campaign will look rather silly
Having said before that unemployment would not beat 6% because of the stimulus and underlying skill shortages anyway, I was right
I have to say though, that I didn’t think it would improve this fast. The job growth figure must be one of the best in the OECD.
With the May budget deficit now likely to be far better than expected, an election in August would not surprise me at all.
Finns
Wouldn’t there be riots if they tried to stop a cricket match?
Those Indians love their cricket, pack out the grounds every time
Socrates
Haiti is a democracy now, albeit fragile. They have a very delicate balancing act with their US and French relationship. They are an economic basket-case and are the poorest country in the Americas.
Lance Armstrong is giving Haiti $250K.
Oooh, can’t wait. Hope it’s costed.
Vera, yes, and there will also riot if they tried to start the cricket match. That’s India, they just love riot.
Brad and Angelina have donated $! million to Haiti.
Joe will still bang on about Labor’s big spending, big dept regardless. He’s a half wit who can only remember simple catchphrases to chant over and over.
And the Lib’s finance spokesman!
The Coalition must “know” something that economists do not. Reading a summary of opinions of various economists, they uniformly predict another rate rise or two for the first half of this year. But not one I read tied these projected rate rises to government spending. According to them it’s down to the strength of the economy and the coming tightness of the job market.
As usual, the Liberals and Nationals are out of touch with the mainstream, apparently oblivious to conventional economic thinking. More and more they paint themselves as economic pretenders.
Tony Abbott warns the jobless rate will rise(???) if the governmetn continues its stimulus spending:
http://afr.com/p/national/economy/jobless_rate_to_rise_if_spending_BYbPGvVdlS3nBPYbLHpFiJ
At first I thought this was crazy and Abbott knew as much about economics as Julie Bishop. Then I realised he was referring to the jobless rate for Liberal politicians
Seriusly this is a farce. How will spending on schools and transport stop business hiring people? His other tack is to warn of the industrial relations reform stopping small business hiring people. Btu that sounds pretty stupid too in a month where 30,000 new jobs were added AFTER the new IR regime has started operation.
It’d better not have anything about climate change in it! Abbott believes CC is “absolute crap”. He wouldn’t want to be hypocritical … or would he?
For those wondering about the WA Tree Man, here is the latest
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/6678764/council-orders-tree-man-to-remove-treehouse/
Cuppa
Yes, rate rises are tied to overall demand, and world interest rate movements. In the long term we want to get back into surplus so that we don’t have too large a debt. But we are a long way off that being a problem. To suggest that Australian government spending makes a fly-speck of difference to world money markets is pretty stupid.
Dio
Thanks; at least a Haitian democracy that makes a constructive recovery possible.
Socrates,
If the media are diligent they will challenge Abbott, Hockey and Joyce on the nonsense they speak about government spending pushing up interest rates. These Coalition spokesman are all over the news media every hour of the day, saturation coverage. Let us hope the media take them to task at every opportunity.
Cuppa
I wouldn’t hold my breath, the media luuuve Tone who makes women weak at the knees in his budgies!
I had to read that Socrates post twice where Abbott is warning of unemployment rising!
Did he mouth off before checking the unemployment figures released today? Or is he so used to telling porkies and his media mates letting him get away with it that he is confident that whatever he says will be reported as gospell?
More good press for us in India…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Oz-virus-may-be-spreading-in-Tamil-Nadu/articleshow/5442226.cms
Although I actually see that animosity towards Australia in the Indian media seems to have suddenly evaporated. Maybe something to do with Simon Crean’s recent trip to India? Uranium sales rethink, perhaps?
Vera
That is why I posted it – Abbot’s statement is pure drivel. He should have it quoted at him from now till election day. Does he even have an economics advisor? If so who is it, Wilson Tuckey?
Oh Dear, another Lib caught playing policeman.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792324.htm?section=justin
Looks like Abbott’s speech will ignore the need for world action and an ETS so he can duck the issue
And it has only been the last 2 years that the Murray has been in trouble don’t ya know?
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/rudd-should-focus-on-environment-abbott-20100114-m8ql.html
Here is one story in the Oz that made me think (I don’t usually read it!)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/student-demand-exceeds-spots-at-universities/story-e6frgcjx-1225819000079
1 in 5 Uni applicants in Qld have missed out on a place. I wondered, how much od they suggest them to consider applying interstate these days? If ther eis a surplus demand for places in Qld, adn surplus places in SA or Vic, why not encourage young people to move state to go to Uni? It is the norm in the USA, and might be a good (maturing) experience.
In 1804, Napoleon III wasn’t even born yet.
I saw that- I assumed it must have been a satanic time-warp of some sort…
Socrates
I reckon Abbott’s statements are all simplistic to appeal to who he thinks are the average joe without too much brainpower to be able to think for themselves.
Just look at his statement suggesting that it has only been since Rudd took power that the Murray is in trouble. People just aren’t so thick to fall for that but Abbott seems to feel they are.
Advisors? I don’t know, I’d imagine he’d be on the phone to Howard every day for instructions.
Nothing that an FOI request for Howie’s phone records won’t fix
I hope they get some curly questions on why they sided with Barnyard & Co ?
Frank
Dead right, vera@1355. Abbot needs lots of wriggle room for his style of political fighting; he doesn’t have much at the moment, and the Govt will make sure it stays that way.
I’d love to know what JH’s standing really is these days, in the eyes of senior Liberals. What do they privately think of his “political genius” now?
frank
Ask them how boycotting China will help get them onside with with CC
Finns@1332:
Not a problem, don’t send the cricketers there. They are the cricket tragics, the Aussies can play elsewhere.
I’m with you, don, but certain Aussie cricketers (along with their wives and managers) might not share those steel nerves…
vera
I bet Abbott craps on about “personal action” and savings by reducing demand.
Diog
I can’t understand that “Abbott speak”
Those radical Indians should be wary of Karma, it might bite them on the bum when it comes time for the Commonwealth Games.
Weren’t the Poms allready showing concern for their atheletes safety?
You’re right, Vera (1347). It’s probably a forlorn hope, that the media will take them to task for their lies. Still, these guys are getting their vox bubbles on the media dozens of times every day, so there’s ample opportunity – and then some – for the media to put the hard questions to them … if they so choose.
I recall with some anger the very easy ride that Chris Uhlmann gave Abbott last week on the 7.30 Report. He let Abbott spout complete nonsense about the New Zealand economy being comparable to Australia’s in its survival of the GFC, and didn’t challenge him on a word of it.
Yet it was quite different the following night when Uhlmann had as “guest” Peter Garrett. He hardly let the bloke get a sentence in without semantic challenges and attempted ‘gotchas’.
Very poor form I thought (considering his effort of the preceding night), but at least he’s made his position clear to me now.
Cuppa
Even lightweight shows like that 7pm one on 10 seem to be all out anti govt. I was changing chanells the other night and the mentiion of the Centur caught my attention so i tuned in for a minute.
The panell were saying how the money had only become available recently for the exploration to go ahead but there was no mention that it was the fed and Qld govts that put up the funds.
The only mention of the govt was by (wait for it!) Steve Price Lib shock jock, who said the problem now is that the govt better make damn sure they protect the war graves of Sydney and Centur, inferring that they wouldn’t
My daughter tells me the 7pm Project had a good shot at Abbott recently, Vera, so there’s some hope for them yet!
cheers cuppa, good to hear
On the other hand, SMH doing Abbott’s job for him
http://www.smh.com.au/
The journal Science is reporting that 2009 was the hottest year yet recorded in the Southern Hemisphere (+0.49 above the 1951-80 baseline). The data comes from NASA, so presumably its from the GISS dataset?
http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2010/113/2#comment-block
It is great to have people who always look at the bright side of things
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/us-televangelist-claims-haiti-earthquake-a-blessing-in-disguise/story-e6freuy9-1225819201168
Socrates
MoJo has a good article here on recent politics in Haiti.
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/01/us-policy-helped-keep-haiti-chaos
Diogenes
That is like saying it is all George Bush fault, that both major parties in Australia agreed to send troops to iraq
dovif
Labor opposed the Iraq War.
The Surry Hills Library and Community Centre is a great example of the type of building needed to reduce the carbon footprint.
http://www.australiandesignreview.com/design_wall/12618-Surry-Hills-Library-and-Community-Centre-Francis-Jones-Morehen-Thorp
http://www.thefifthestate.com.au/archives/3878
Rudd described the Iraq War as “the greatest foreign policy mistake of the generation” or similar.
Psephos was a bit more circumspect about the Iraq War from memory.
So we are all hoping that our kids/neighbours/friends remain jobless to keep our mortgages at record lows. Yeah, right.
Liberal’s emissions policy
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792361.htm?section=justin
Garreth has got an award
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792419.htm?section=justin
Incidentally, where is Psephos?
Holiday?
Getting that sex change he always wanted (Psephina)?
Painting his house?
Painting someone else’s house?
I’ve missed his erudite commentary.
#1378.
BS, sorry CS…
No seriously, they must be joking.
The award would be mostly for Evans’ consummate skills in disarming the Democrats by porking their leader to defection.
Isreal.
From his Facebook Status:
* Out of Respect I haven’t used his Facebook name, but regular PB’s will know it
Psephos was on a trip to Israel the last i heard.
And it can’t be CS it’s on the ABC site
How’s this for free publicity.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/armstrong-backs-ranny-to-win-election-20100114-m93t.html
Cheers Frank.
Re Abbott’s preliminary points on the environment, in prep for his environment speech for the Sydney Institute tonight:
1. Funding for the National Reserve System Program and for the Indigenous Protected Areas Program was increased under the Rudd Government. (Both were initiated under Howard.) Both have had huge impacts on building Australia’s national reserve system.
2. Expenditure for water buybacks has been extensive under the Rudd Government. The Coalition Government was wary of this sort of investment because the Nationals hated it. Despite the great Christmas inland floods footage which would have fooled lots of people about the irrigation water picture, parts of the MDB are still in a 13 year drought and most of the reservoirs are still very, very low. The environmental impact of these expenditures should kick in once the rainfall steadies a bit, if it ever does, I suppose. Also unheralded, lots of irrigators are leaving the system, supported by governments to do so. Some of the fed/state stuff on the MDB are still a mess but Howard had longer and did less than Rudd.
3. Abbott’s claim that actions on these sorts of fronts are what we should get into because Australia can’t do anything along about climate change is utter crap. The first thing is that premise that we are acting alone is utterly false. Lots of other countries are doing lots of CC things – and some of them are doing much, much more than Australia. Secondly if we don’t fix cc, then it will not matter what we do for nature conservation. I expect that a lot of it will go and a lot of the work we do to protect it would be a complete waste of effort if CC is not fixed.
4. Administrative changes to the old Natural Heritage-type local project funding and a greater focus on more strategic funding is (I have been told by people who used to such on the ground projects) creating a fair bit of unhappiness. There is some disgruntlement. How much I do not know.
5. Another concrete outcome under the Rudd Government is, I believe, the closure of the Weeds CRC. (Not sure about that). Given the cost of weeds to agriculture and to the environment, this did not seem to me to be a good idea.)
6. I believe the coalition has called for a huge camel cull. The Rudd Government has, I understand, already allocated enough money to knock of most of the feral camels.
All in all, if the Abbott speech does work along the above lines then an overarching prelim assessment would be that he is trying to distract from doing something really serious on CC. His recent forays into whales and wild rivers will not add to the credibility he gained from one eightying the ETS, on his stating that warming has stopped, and on his avowal that climate change is crap.
I am a bit mystified why he is tackling environment is such a front and centre way.
I look forward to Abbott’s speech.
Boer
I understand Tone will lead the assembled masses in a prayer for intercession.
Boerwar
I don’t suppose the government would be waiting like a coiled spring at all, would it? Ready to set Garnaut, the Treasury, Lord Stern and any other expert they can lay their hands on to ridicule Abbott’s policy, which is bound to be more lame than a culled camel?
vera
Actually it cost SA taxpayers $400K to get Armstrong out to say that.
At least he called Rann “Ranny”, unlike McEnroe who referred to him as “Ranndy”.
Gusface and JV
It mystifies me a bit.
Unless I have seriously misread Abbott’s current status as environmentally concerned leader of the Opposition, or unless he comes out with a string of left field environment policies and programs, it does looks as if he is leading with his jaw.
Perhaps we will see a transubstantiation tonight?
Diog
Ranndy Ranny has a ring to it
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd here is Abbot’s Plan according to the OO:
I wonder if “direct action plan for the environment” is denialist-speak for climate change policy?
I think that Abbott is going to try to go to the election on State issues. Wild Rivers, SA-Vic on water, land clearing, etc.
He cannot talk about Federal issues because he is screwed on every one. So he will run 150 separate elections based on local/state issues.
Can the feds take over the murray darling? I don’t think they can unless the states agree to it, which they wont except maybe SA as they have nothing to loose.
You forgot “Hoons” – EVERY Lib Candidate in 2007 was going on about it in their Election Material – though after Rob Johnston’s effort, Doctors in Lamborginis will be exempt
If the economy is sooo good, how come people keep getting sacked.
5.5% read it and weep.
If the economy is sooo bad, how come people keep getting hired.
Rua went:
And lose message traction in about 135 of them.
TP
The States can hand over control of the MDB to the Feds or a referendum could do it.
Neither will happen.
Well there are a lot of people unemployed right now.
If you get rid of the bullshit unemployment stats that only count people on the dole, the real unemployment level is about 10% at least.
Troothy went:
They don’t in net terms, exactly the opposite. Here’s today’s ABS Labour Force stats for December:
http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0?OpenDocument
Well there are a lot of people employed right now.
If you get rid of the bullshit unemployment stats that don’t count people on the dole, the real employment level is about 90% at least.
Troothy also went:
Unemployment figures aren’t calculated by adding up the number of people on the dole, they are calculated with Australia’s largest survey, where approximately 0.33% of the Australian civilian population aged over 15 is sampled every month.
Poss
Last time I asked you how you were getting on with Bolt, you replied
I think I’d been a bad that day but I’ve been playing nicely since then.
But I see you haven’t.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/01/13/andrew-bolt-knowledge-weight-and-flagship-media/comment-page-1/#comments
Lonely the Only
Dum-dum-dum-dumdy-doo-wah
Ooh-yay-yay-yay-yeah
Oh-oh-oh-oh-wah
Lonely the Only
[Octogenarian Playboy founder Hugh Hefner is down to just one live-in girlfriend after he announced on Twitter that the 20-year-old Shannon twins will move out of his home.
Karissa and Kristina Shannon, who shacked-up with Hef in 2008, will be moving from the Playboy Mansion into the neighbouring Playmate House.
"The Shannon Twins are growing up," Hef tweeted. "They're moving to the Playmate House with my blessing so they will be free to do other things."
The change of address means that the twins will now be regarded only as "friends".
"Were looking forward to moving to the Playmate House, But we still love Hef & want to remain close," [sic] the twins said in a Twitter message.
The move leaves 23-year-old Crystal Harris as the 83-year-old lothario’s sole official girlfriend.]
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/people/hugh-hefners-twin-girlfriends-leave-the-mansion-20100114-m83o.html
People Skills and the OO have zero environmental credibility.
Apparently they see no inconsistency in running the parallel arguements that;
A) Australia, with a small proportion of the world’s emissions, cannot contribute significantly to lowering global emissions with our CPRS and therefore any action we take is a waste of time and stupid…and,
B) Each Australian household, with an infinetisimal share of the national emissions total can save the country from the evil laborbots and their evil CPRS by turning off the light in the garage, whether or not you have agreement from your neighbours that they too will turn off their light.
What an ubertool.
Sharman Stone, Fran Bailey, and Sophie Mirabella – to name a few campaigns I was familiar with – all ran on State issues, particularly water, in 2007.
All of them suffered above average swings (between 5-7%) against them.
So if TA runs on localised campaigns featuring state issues, we could see a bigger wipe out than we’re expecting.
They showed clips of Julia and Abbott responding to employment data and whether the stimulus should be cut.
Abbott was er-ahh-umming, gawd he’s painfull to listen to, so much trouble for him to string a sentence together! When he did it was if we want to keep unemployment low the spending has to stop.
Compare this to Julia (in tin hat on building site with the boys
) saying there are still 100,000 less people employed compared to the same time last year and so we need to let the stimulus do it’s job and it will be phased out as planned.
First report of THAT speech:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792656.htm?section=justin
He better start speaking to St Bob – they already have much in common
When you go to the ballot box you think of what party you want to run the country. Then they think – Rudd or Abbott?
Most wouldn’t know their local MPs and don’t think about politics much until the last few months maybe. Running on local state issues will probably be a waste of time it also risks sounding incoherent at the national level.
Forgot to say it was SBS news
frank
Is there a difference? They sit together and vote the same in the senate
Transcript of Abbott Speech:
The debates will be fun if Abbott is campaigning on state issues and the questions you’d think would be as they should on federal issues.
Socrates
re your post and on US earlier
Socs notice congrats , at GFC date Sept 2008 we were RiteON
so to speaks
Althoughs my predict 6% to 7 % unemploy and 3% -3.5% rates only hit better end of each but for oz that obvously is a better econamic result And you a little more bullish , you bull you I think we all aussies should congrat Rudd Swan Tanner brigade for sound econ managing & courage of implimenting sensible Stimi package
oz unemployment 2 mths in row welcome news , but econamy is still fragile , no bublys yet , stimili moneys dryin but investment needs a jump to replase solid consistent , othrwise staggers
as we grown natural intersts rates go up , and will maybe anothr 1% to go up , yet Abbott will fool critisise rate increases We also sit on a Debt and Trade deficit volcano , gotts go off one day
We now hav as aussies more than 1 trillion in debt , geez thats as much as our whole yr GDP those credit cards gravvy trains hav to stop at a staton one day
Our trade deficit plane that bob brown does not undrstand econamics on with his crazy stand alone 25% CC cut nonsense grows at 2 billon a monh & i guess may be 600 billion owed , maybe more It was “only” 180 billon when Keating left office and howard added at least 350 bill to that (Mr Costello)
so th train and th plane must run out f petrol run day , these things afect rates and employment and debt
then look over all th oceans yonder to USA , what basket case th USA could reek on worlds econmys alone includin th oz . one trillion lates budget deficit , about 14 trillion debt incl 2 Fannie Maes , and 100% Fed/State debt of there GDP
and th doosra , figures that reely ar spinning doosra’s , 54 trillion in UN funded in health & penson liabils, try riting 54 trilluon out
so to even talk a 25% CC cut alone in th world as Booby Brown does loungin up these in those Ivory towers with othr over educatd acadamic theorists He to talkin total sosial and econ dislocaton to oz given who our exports go to He neithr understands th value of exports to standard of living let alone debt , rates & tade deficits re oz , let alone World econ dynamics
and now Booby brown wants to boycott China !! good grief , linatic econamics you ar
ROX where ar you , down Tassie ways , where is that “Party” going that may bring some BOP econamic sanitys
Thanks, Frank for link to MisteRabbit’s speech. I was much impressed with his idea that climate and the environment would be a vote changer this year (as if cf. the economy), but somehow, magically the votes would move to the Libs. (as if).
That’s Abbott’s pitch for Green preferences? Dill.
I wonder if this speech is aimed at the spuses of medicos and other Professionals back to the Liberal Fold ?
Adele Carles has a LOT to Answer for
Frank, only if the medicos spouses and defactos and mistresses are stupid
From Tone’s speech
So he doesn’t understand the difference between an environmental issue and an aesthetic one.
Ummm, how did you get to be Leader again, Tony?
What, is this ‘Be kind to deluded scientists’ week??
Which they are, especially as climate change will increase all of them.
Oh goody. So Tone’s only ever going to set targets he’ll be around to take responsibility for….
I mean, setting a target to raise Aboriginal life expectancy within the next year would really work.
You’d certainly get that impression from reading this speech.
What have you guys been doing the last two years, if this is something you ‘will’ be doing?
At this rate, they’ll have policies worked out by 2020.
….pause…got to go and cook tea, can’t keep reading TA’s gripping epic.
TP@1412:
If that is seriously what Abbott is going to do, he is not just toast, he is charcoal.
Incoherent is the kindest interpretation, chaotic would be more like it. Imagine, with one side of his mouth he is trying to appease queensland users of the Murray Darling system, with the middle he is sucking up to NSW, and that leaves the other side for the MIA and SA.
And that’s just water. What about issues such as energy, transport, finance?
Finance is an especially thorny problem, when he’s got the loose cannon of Barnaby Joyce, a bull in a china shop on matters financial.
Roll on.
Is anyone else dubious about the Feds taking over the MDB basin on a permanent basis? The only thing they have anything to do with that flows is money and everyone knows they can’t manage that properly.
So Tony’s big plan is to create a huge new bureaucracy to dictate how people should live in Country areas. The Bush will love it!!!!!!
They might even decide to close Adelaide because it’s unviable rather that than upset the National seats along the Murray that could use the water far more economically than Labor voting families in the suburbs.
don, he really doesn’t want to talk about anything to do with finance or the economy. They’re on wood on that. It’s what I was referring to earlier, i.e., he thinks climate change and the environment trumps the economy as separate issues and can’t or doesn’t get the Govt. now owns the economy as an issue.
Just being silly, though, doesn’t anyone else want to call him MisteRabbit?
Frank
“I wonder if this Abbotts speech is aimed at the spuses of medicos”
William says no DW’s group just a special wealthy segment and think Abbott is after to hav baks in fold , plus those lost of generaly left libs , plus muddy up voters (corect) persepton of his CC flippy flop deniel stanse
and as diogens , what a revelaton indeed last nite , he proudly boasts Doctors do not have wives Which explains alot about Diogenes here And why he undr regular therapy you see he intimidated by strong personality politcs women who ar warm harted , calls them all liars as a defense
Don @ 1424, and those following – The notion that all politics is local looks like just another attempt to transplant a concept from America. The Howard government tried that technique by the bucketload in its dying days – not just the Mersey hospital, but also the attempt to have plebiscites all over Queensland on local government amalgamations.
Incidentally, I was struck, when watching Mr Abbott just now on the 7.30 Report, that when he was asked first off about the purpose of his new environmental policies, he made no bones about the fact that they were about trying to get Green preferences. This was at least honest rather than hypocritical, but did highlight how hard it is going to be for the currently constituted opposition to gain any real credibility on environmental issues.
GG
I put that sort of political ‘promise’ in the same category as “We promise to build a giant water pipeline from the NorthernTerritory to Melbourne.”
Abbott’s M-D takeover talk is the same – it has about the same depth and value as a body builder posing in front of a mirror.
Shorter TA:
Kevin Rudd is bad, John Howard was good.
Have a referendum to allow the Feds to take over the MD basin (by about 2014, apparently there’s no rush, although it’s the biggest environmental problem facing Australia acc to Tony).
Establish a permanent Green army of 15 000 people
That’s it, folks.
Where’s the prayer?
Is Tony proposing to pay his 15,000 Green troops? If so where does he get the $400+ million a year from?
Work For The Dole provision of course- plus those pesky DSP people with Bad Backs
Just had a premonition as to the likely centrepiece of Abbott’s CC policy – Encouraging a reduction in the birthrate to reduce population pressure on emissions. It fits with the policy statemenrt today for the reduction in the camel population.
JV
No Humps?
Gusface
Ron
I don’t really recall saying that somehow. I can hardly think of a doctor who isn’t married.
And most people who become doctors now are female so the demographic will become “Doctors’ husbands”.
Yeah well they’ve never asked me, so obviously they’re just made up (I’m sure you’ll find mention of them in the East Anglia email trail)
grog,
Truthie has point though. How often do they survey tinnies in the Timor Sea doing their best to protect our borders?
Of course the Liberals are well aware of the feuding between the Labor and Greens supporters here at PB. So Abbott probably thinks there are preferences in it for them ever since Bob1234 got the flick.
If Abbott thinks he’s going to get anywhere close to a Green preference swing, he needs locking up.
He just doesn’t get it.
so THAT explains Glen’s absence
1425
Greensborough Growler
Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 7:48 pm | Permalink
“Is anyone else dubious about the Feds taking over the MDB basin on a permanent basis? ”
no not me , well apart from th constituton , states refusing , chalenging , lack of accountablty of a Fed burocracy , useless expense of Canberra run public servants , lack of expertise unlike MRB authority , th States where th rivers do run being actualy party to th soluton via MRB , no caping unlike MRB authority , no costing of proposel , etc
so think Abbott is on a reel winner there
However as opposed to actual ofering solutons , Abbott politcaly knows th lack of water in MRB causin pain everywheres & th aleged some States hogging/wastin water makes his one liner we Feds will take over & fix , voter attractiv Its a hard argument to knock down politcaly quickly without “time” to explain to voters Suspect his “CC ” polisy will be a similar type , whicj maybe why his MRB polisy is as it is , fluff feel good but no substanse as you corectly sugest
Centre.
Two words.
Nick Minchin.
C’mon Diogs, just because Abbott is a CC sceptic dosen’t mean he can’t win some Green votes (not)
Frank, Glen has been specifically told by Lib headquarters to keep away from PB so their opponents can inflict damage on themselves.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792656.htm?section=justin
Poor ABC work experience online chap. What POLICY. Attacking the Govt is not policy, in fact Abbott did not call it policy – it was a policy agenda.
Jesus wept.
Ron,
As always, you say it better than me.
I just can’t see anyone buying bigger and more centralised control by Eastern centric bureaucrats and beach living politicians as the answer to anything.
Lead ballooon warning.
That pretty much sums it up. If that guy had a magic pudding and promised us $100,000 each if he won, he would still lose.
Prove it. Or shut the hell up.
And Toothy, while you’re at it, prove that the ‘boat people’ are coming here purely because of ‘changes in policy’. Or shut the hell up about it.
“and as diogens , …..he proudly boasts Doctors do not have wives ”
Diogenes “ don’t really recall saying that somehow.
And most people who become doctors NOW are female ”
and do not hav wives
th gays will be disappointd doctors support Christianity
Their ABC are wRONg
The Premier in WA in 2000 was one Richard Fairfax Court 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792709.htm
Abbott is lost for words, Hurty Tooth is whinging, the fact is that the Rudd/Swan stimulus has been sensationally successful. Unemployment right now is much lower than what anybody had forecast.
The issue of economic management all belongs to Rudd for the election. What is there left for the Liberals to fight on? The environment, what a joke!
Fair dinkum, the only way Rudd could lose the next election is if he was caught having a threesome with Roseann and Gusface
Ron
I agree with you about the MDB but if you look at your list, a lot of those problems apply equally to the Feds taking over Health (which Abbott has also said he’d do, and Rudd is getting close to saying)
From the mouth of the great man himself (insert $2 emoticon here):
Well, for a start, you might PAY them $50 000 (on average, taking into account the supervisors would get more than this, the grunts less) but their actual costs would be far higher.
He visualises a permanent standing force, moving around the country as needed, so you would have to (besides the usual ‘on costs’, which I think are 10% plus on top of the wage you pay them) factor in accomodation, transport and food costs.
Centre
We did invite you.
#1454
I would have thought the states would only be too glad to get rid of health.
Give em more time to concentrate on what they do best – making discretionary planning decisions (nudge nudge, wink wink).
What an unfortunate choice of words by the New York Times for its header to an article on Haiti:
Haiti Lies in Ruins
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/world/americas/15haiti.html
Fyi – The labour force underutilisation rate is 13.6% comprising an unemployment rate of 5.8% and an underemployment rate of 7.8%. The proportion of part-time workers who preferred to work more hours is 27.1%. Discouraged job seekers, for example those who are involuntarily retired and are too young to access super but prefer to live off savings rather than applying for unemployment benefits, do not appear in these stats.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/6105.0Main%20Features3Jan%202010?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=6105.0&issue=Jan%202010&num=&view=
Source: 6105.0 – Australian Labour Market Statistics, Jan 2010
The costings for the Green Army will be interesting. Labor hire oncosts alone are probably closer to 30%-40% than 10%. I doubt that they will be getting $50,000 a pop. It would be the dole plus a little bit extra. Then, as noted above, there will be equipment costs, chemical costs, fencing costs, etc, etc.
The basic problem with the Green Army idea is not the cost. It is that even 15,000 people cannot put Humpty Dumpty together again. Humpty Dumpty is being broken again and again by systemic problems that Abbott does not wish to confront:
1. Increasing pressures due to increasing population.
2. Increasing pressures due to CC.
3. Cost structures that basically force farmers to destroy the environment in order to make a quid.
4. Several squillion paddock trees that are senescing and not being replaced because of grazing pressure. The systemic issue: private property rights.
5. Desertification because of overgrazing in the rangelands.
etc etc.
6. Overallocation of inland waters.
The speech was an exercise in conflating ‘enviromental repair’ in general with climate change.
I doubt that the general run of Green voters will fall for Abbott’s thimble trick.
A full takeover of the MDBC inland water by the Feds is long overdue.
However, if the Coalition is willing to prop up a naval ship building program in a silly place like Adelaide for electoral reasons, and put Defence headquarters out in a paddock in the seat of Eden Monaro for the same reasons, it would not doubt skunk the water allocation system for the same reasons.
One of the things it might get the courage to do is to stop what is happening now, which is an extremely inefficient exit strategy for farmers. What is happening is that irrigation farmers are leaving voluntarily. This means a few from this channel, a few from that channel, a few from this district and a few from that district. This shot hole approach means that there is not an efficient approach to closing channels or districts.
Boerwar, the Opposition don’t know what to do about anything really.
HSO
Hi. Nice to see you back on the boards. I am very curious to see how effective they are at picking low hanging fruit to get 5%. I anticipate that it should be reasonably good in some ways but (a) inefficient becasue the market isn’t getting a look in and (b) unscaleable. So, if we have to move beyond 5%, which we do, they will be in trouble. Their real problem will be that ‘climate is crap’ is going to get a fair old run in the next election.
Oh, and I’m not sure the Gov’t does either about how to manage the effects of climate change on the continent.
As a principal i do not favor Fed takeover of hospitals for all th normal reasons includ too far away from coal face even eg about beds
Unfortunate some States ar not uptodate with agreed national reform benchmarks , and still too much presures on emergensy depts , waiting lists long and sometimes lack of accountability or bean counters instead of doctors calling prioritys blah blah
othr thingy is preventon is better than cure , then no doctors need ! well only when it is actualy needed , so maybe more research and then actons in how to decrease numbers who go to hospital wwhen pre alternitives may make it unnecesarys
politcaly think Kevin Rudd will go to next electon with this opton in kitty bag if reform progress is not quicker
But for Abbott to say he will , without a reform agenda first , or anything but a one liner , again for those (lots) unhappy with hospital outcumes then his one liner we Feds will take over & fix , a la his MRB one liner , feel good 10 second grab , no substanse again
you see th pattern don’t we , Abbott has a one liner for every problam , we Feds will takere over and fix At that rate 100 one liners (all in a 1 minute speach) and then ALL th countrys problams hav been fixed by Abbott , th more Abbott talks th more I think thinking tone is a thinking mans stink
HSO
No, that particular landscape is bleakish, whichever direction you look.
Ron
No matter how much prevention there is, people have to die of something, some time and it is the last year of our existence that backloads medical costs.
Ahh, the true colours of the WA Libs are being revealed re privatisation. BTW, that is my local public hospital.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/14/2792761.htm?site=news
Centre centre,wherefore art thou?
Nice to have a chance to talk with some compadres, Boerwar. My home computer has been hauled off for diagnostics as it stopped some time ago and we’ve had to find someone willing to have a go at repairing it. Boring, I know, but haven’t been able to say much as Himself Indoors has been using his computer to see if he could rescue mine. Just recently have been able to use HI computer, as he retreats from computer dysfunctional syndrome, poor darling.
Did you have a look at what has been posted on Possum’s most recent blog and the postings?
I’ve got to say Zoomster is an absolutely sterling, perhaps rolled gold, real politician. Zoomster, perhaps you’ve got to move to where we can vote for you.
Gus, with Juliet, Juliet, Juliet.
Can’t help thinking of this one, after people skills’ 7.30 tonight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xchov6_YbU8
Slight change of lyrics to “We are marching in the Green Army”
Finns
I was hoping to make up after centre didny show up for the menage la trois.
Roseanne was a suitable replacement.
The Finnigans
Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 11:00 pm | Permalink
Gus “Centre centre,wherefore art thou?”
Amigo finns “Gus, with Juliet, Juliet, Juliet.”
you did invite to th threesome , imagine couldn’t find , so settled for Vanstone
Ron, got to go to bed now, but would like to continue this conversation later. It would be quite possible for the Fed level of government to fund acute health care but give the $ to Boards to administer. This is how it operates in Victoria currently. Sort of. There’s been lots of problems as people have had to learn how to do it properly. And it’s still not really sorted, as much because of different funding sources and when those monies become available to the organisation. Also been a lot of very bad practice along the way. Nightmare territory I can tell you.
So possible, but with a lot of caveats to do it.
Night all.
Thanks, HSO.
Years ago some of the party bigwigs visited me here in my humble abode, looked out at the view for a while, and said word to this effect, “Well, we know why it’s no use offering you a safe seat. What surprises us is that you come to Melbourne at all.”
ruawake #1419
As the next logical step after Abbott’s Overturn the Qld Government’s “Wild Rivers” legislation would be a promise that, if he’s elected PM, he’ll overturn the Hawke’s Federal “Gordon-below-Franklin Wild Rivers” legislation (ie World heritage listing); I’m waiting with bated breath for Bob Brown to applaud that initiative by urging all green voters to preference the Libs ahead of the ALP!
One look at Mr People Skills tonight (I hit “mute” after the first excruciatingly tortured minute), and I could almost hear my mother (RIP) saying, “He does look constipated. He should take something for that!”
Ozpol
You hit the nail on the head.
Tone, relief is at hand.
Boerwar
Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 at 10:42 pm | Permalink
“Ron No matter how much prevention there is, people have to die of something”
something , getting run over by a semi trailor would do it
boerwar saw a guy from maybe AMA , or some doctors group about 12 months ago on TV arguing for more medical based preventon & better health based efforts and thought he made a good case
wouldn’t help too much with th semi trailor but
would some one explain to me what abbott is talking about re his green army
i seem to remember in the first weeks he said something about his abbott army
What is he talking about.?
And cue the TV ad circa 1963
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBPWt4OQ-RY
my say
Tone is back in the 1930′s and jack lang rules the country.
Think De Groot and add a dash of One Nation and mix in the National Front/action.
Tone is Bonkers in other words!
my say
tony’s major announcement in his speech tonight was that he would create a Green Army of 15,000 people who would move around the country fixing environmental problems (pulling weeds, mostly, it seems).
Abbott obviously doesn’t care about making new enemas.
so this Tone’s 15,000 strong green army complete with buckets , ar going to carry buckets of water all th way down to th Murray river to fill it up
from cape yorke
I disagree with most on this post tonight.
I liked Tonys speech tonight. For several reasons-
1. I see see no reasons why conservatives cant be conservationists
2. The issues he raised- land degradation, invasive species, biodiversity loss have been off the federal agenda for a decade now
3. Government funding of these issues have been rapidly declining in real terms over the last decade likewise and alomst all of this funding is now being wasted through inefficient state agencies rather than ngo’s, community groups and landholders.
It does highlight a Rudd inconsistency, just because you believe in climate change, doesn’t mean you then get to ignore the environment proper. Garretts Caring for our Country is effectively the merging of the National Action Plan for Salinity and Water and the Natural Heritage Trust (at the same budget of just the NHT). It has entrenched funding pathways through bureacratic state agencies. And yet has led to the mass contraction of practical NGO’s. Great people have been lost from the natural resource managment industry forever in the last few years at the hand of garrett and rudd.
What Abbott is promising is essentially a doubling of the national NRM budget.
However Tonys biggest mistake is to confuse Climate Change for a environment issue. When reality it is much more social and economic issue.
blue_green
Good points.
Yes.The things he listed are all crucial and must be addressed forthwith, but they don’t replace a global emissions reduction scheme; they are also necessary. Typical of a politician to fall into the trap of the false dilemma.
no blue-green
no j/v
Tones biggest mistake is to BELIEVE voters will think his aleged interst in environmnt
means he (a CC denier on th public record) both believes in CC and CC acton , th peoples suport and th votes ar in CC which is anglin for (dismaly)
JV,
If you take out the climate change bits I think it is a good conservative conservationist speech. If it was put, perhaps by Malcolm, post supporting an ETS it would have become a point of difference for an election campaign and given the coalition some good imagery of doing stuff with landcare groups etc.
However it was said in the context of changing the level of protection of Cape York, rhetoric of reducing restrictions on land clearing (man up the pole etc), whale flip-flop and climate change is crap.
In marketing it is not just the product but the packaging. Pepsi in a coke can always scores better in taste tests etc. So the product/policy per se is a good one, but the packaging leaves a lot to be desired.
r/Ron
That’s also true – but the fact that he purports to say the local ‘direct action’ is an alternative to a global emissions reduction scheme is all part of the Minchinists’ denialist agenda. The whole mess is all part of the one ‘bigar’ mistake.
“If you take OUT the climate change bits I think it is a good conservative conservationist speech.”
and what othr than CC is th bigest threat to th environment ?
you can not ignore CC , and then say I’m intersted in th envionmnt ,
thats Tone being ilogical & hypocriticol
The funny thing about many of the practical conservationists- bushcare and landcare people is that they tend to be located in coalition seats. Have you ever been to Mosman on weekday morning? Drop into one of the local bushland reserves and you will come across a little old lady with a bottle of roundup and a cordless drill. I know some who pay a gardner to look after their home garden while they spend their free time killing weeds in the bush.
I think this policy is a reach out to those people- moderate coalition voters who would have been mightily pissed by the takeover. It is not a reach out to Greens or soft labor voters.
I have to say the NRM movement is mighty pissed that both parties have ignored them for the past decade. Ask any landcare group. These people spend private money and time for what is mainly a public good outcome with very little govt support.
blue-green
“In marketing it is not just the product but the packaging.”
if th pakaging is pretty with red roses , but inside its empty , then it still goes to th dusty bin , by voters
I agree Ron. However, we will need to mitigate strongly and take major adaptive measures as well.
All the adaptive measures for the environment are NRM 101 stuff (just on a grander scale). Its kill weeds and ferals, manage fire, protect vegetation, replant riverbanks, manage grazing.
I don’t disagree that Tony is a tool but I am hopeful that these issues will reappear on the national agenda.
b_g
Yes, it could work as an ‘add-on’ to the ETS, but will never work as a stand alone ‘alternative’. The expert derision will be emphatic.
I suspect the Abbott/Minchin camp know that, but will go down the US path of appealing to the ignorant masses (and encouragng their ignorance) saying that the smart-arse intellectual ‘experts’ are elitists who don’t care about the ordinary battler; don’t have the country’s interests at heart etc. I think they reckon they can win on an anti-intellectual drum beating talk-back redneck denialist campaign. The line might be: “We can do it all here in Aus because we Libs/Nats know the land and can save it without the interference of bloody international scientists, do-nothing meetings, the UN, Copenhagen, Mexico, or anything else un-Australian.”
That’s their campaign I’d say. True fantasy if they think they’ll succeed.
So the world agrees to a 5% reduction scheme. Fantastic. We will all feel good.
BUT freakin’ useless.
And Rudd knows it. And Rudd won’t do anything about it.
I think it is a strategic mistake to start his headland speeches with a enviro one.
It signals a break from the textor crosby strategy of talking only about your strengths to make them more prominent in the minds of voters. A textor crosby inspired speech would have talked about either 1. some international danger (in a defence context) 2. govt spending leading to inflation 3. govt spending leading increasing interest rates.
Perhaps Tony should have been doing an ‘early’ latham and found something unexpected to talk about like reading to kids. He is disadvantaged in that he cant talk health and fitness because he personally stymied preventative health. He could have done a ‘we will invest in velodromes and surf life saving clubs’ (oh but the stimulus package did that)
I am rambling now I need to go to bed.
More support for that sort of community based action cannot be derided.
I only hope the debate doesn’t now devolve into the government saying or implying that because Tony has suggested those activites as an alternative, it is all worthless crap. That would be a worry.
That’s the trouble with politics in this country (and others) , it reduces every issue to two options in conflict, when they may both be good ideas.
Also blue-green
“I think this policy is a reach out to those people- moderate coalition voters who would have been mightily pissed by the takeover.
It is NOT a reach out to Greens or soft labor voters.”
if you tink those Greens voters voting Labor up to 80% , ar going to switch from Green , and by pass “left” Labor…and jump a politcal grand canyon all th way over to “right” consevative , no
Labor even when Greens run dead hav NO Greens How to vote card for Greens voters to pick up/copy from , still get about 75% of greens prefs when there is no Greens HTV They wil not switcharoo , and Bob Brown knows this fact also
so if policy is aimed at Greens voters , it will fail shocking for abov
now for getting ‘soft’ labor voters you say , well first Rudd would hav to be on th nose And he is not Has an av 2TPP of 58/42 Reely thats a no go eithr , due to curent politcal cycel
Conservaton is very important and suport your details re land degrad being pushed , soam with you there
But consevaton should be PART of th CC program and not a once offa thing because it then becomes part of th soluton plus delivers econamic benefits in efecient use of agric land , or preservin naturs wonders for th kids to see in person , not just in a photo
Abbott to be sucessful would hav to be a CC believer with finkum CC polisys , which he can not hav being a CC denier
i suggest what Abbot is after , in 2007 Libs LOST , since then they hav lost anothr 5% of there combined primary vote !! a further 5% unbelievable Abbott after that 5% (and not Greens prefs from Greens 2nd prefering Labor which is politcaly unacheivable curent)
My opinon electon will be closer to 54/46 2PP and he’ll get some of that 5% , and none of curent Greens prefering 2nd to labor
I agree broadly again. I am thinking more like 58-42. This is part of play to bring it back to 56-44.
Yes JV,
I am now a bit worried that the NRM/conservation movement will become more marginalised.
Have just eyeballed People Skills’ speech; my surprised eyes caught by,
“Hang on a mo,” I thought. “Isn’t he the bloke who, only recently, reckoned “Climate Change is crap”? Geez, that was a few weeks back; in Tony Weathervane’s Abbott’s terms, an eon in politics!
Naturally I looked for the “Overturning Bligh’s Wild Rivers legislation” … and looked … and then decided it must be covered in
because Bligh’s legislation could (at not so much a stretch as a contortionist’s Gold Medal effort) be seen as that.
A cynical observer might be inclined to dismiss “Wild Rivers” as Tone’s early Week 2, Jan 10′s “Look at moi, look at moi” publicity stunt. Now it’s Thursday (& his “Wild Rivers” stance bombed with greenies, green-leaning other voters, national & State Parks, anyone into conservation of tropical “wild country”, everyone who hates People Skills) it’s “been there, done that; now we’re onto the MDB” … after 2 years of “Rudd inaction” and 12 years of Howard’s.
The big problem with the Murray-Darling, more specifically the Darling, is that there wasn’t any “Wild Rivers” legislation to “lock it up” before anyone decided to farm / graze/ build cities & towns near / pump water from it.
A good long look at a map of the Darling’s catchment, length, geography and climate; a check of catchment & river water loss through evaporation & seepage into the Great Artesian Basin ought to convince anyone that the Darling’s water supply will always remain problematic – unless, somehow, climate change greatly increases rainfall in its catchment areas (fat chance!) Even then, much will still be absorbed by the GAB.
Who the heck is Abbott trying to win over to the Coalition cause? The already rusted on & converted? The lunar Right? Who the heck’s advising him? I can see why his party preferred nelson & Turnbull!
BTW, that pdf’s a CSIRO publication. A L Herczeg Background Report on the Great Artesian Basin: A report to the Australian Government from the CSIRO Murray-Darling Basin Sustainable Yields project. September 2008
Recommended if you want to understand the MDB, and why so little of the Qld & N-NSW flood waters in the Darling catchment basin reach the river. Buying back properties along the Darling & its QLD tributaries will not significantly increase the amount of water that exits the Menindie Lakes for SA.
OzPol tragic. I am certain that Tony is trying to win back the greenish tinged Libs in the safe lib seats who go the their local national tree day. I think these guys abondoned the libs during the ETS kerfuffle.
Otherwise i think there might be some rogue local electorate results in seats like joe hockeys and greg hunts.
Next step is the 5% climate strategy without the ets.
OzPol Tragi
A drive through the cotton areas of the N-West of NSW is all that is needed to understand the uncontrolled “big suck” that has given us the dry Murray-Darling system.
I’ve seen many huge pumping stations with multiple pipes 2 feet in diameter with their own electrical sub-station. The taking of water – for unsuitable crops – that mostly evaporates out into the Tasman Sea instead of supporting native bird colonies in ancient wetlands downstream is heart-breaking.
blue-green
“Next step is the 5% climate strategy without the ets.”
CC mitigaton can NOT be done Internatonaly efectiv without an markey based ETS Mitigaton soluton requires an econamic soluton model
Its one of th many negs against th only othr option a carbin tax , to need to be able to “trade” , and also carbin taxes do not reduce usage eg cigies , and carbon taxes do not hav caps to ensure mitigaton
If Abbott wants a CC polisy without an ETS , then clearly he showing , again , he is a closet CC denier , only spinning falsely for to gets votes
also blue-green , your argumets wil “appear” ‘pakaged’ better if you AKA ‘red-green’
Watermelons are sweet, tasty and delicious.
At last something for NSW to be proud of.
It does NOT maintain expensive state trade offices in overseas countries, unlike Qld, WA, SA and Victoria.
Bob Carr, NSW’s Labor Premier (1995-2005) abolished the trade offices.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/irks-and-perks-of-an-overseas-trade-post/story-e6frgczf-1225817483420
OMG:
For those interested in the Iris Robinson scandal in Northern Ireland, here is the BBC program that outed her:
Introduction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoKjTST0HeI
Part 1 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2XeNNgzXk4&feature=PlayList&p=DC5EE97809ECA72B&index=0&playnext=1
Part 2 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jEXZEhpsSI&feature=PlayList&p=DC5EE97809ECA72B&index=1
Part 3 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJtnE5RXr4Q&feature=PlayList&p=DC5EE97809ECA72B&index=2
And of course – the scandal inspired song Mrs Robinson is here:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRwTj6iXnSI
OzPol Tragic @ # 1504
Who the heck is Abbott trying to win over to the Coalition cause? The already rusted on & converted? The lunar Right? Who the heck’s advising him? I can see why his party preferred nelson & Turnbull!
It would appear that he has won over Green Senator Hanson Young.
The accompanying headline is “Greens back Abbott’s environmental push”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/15/2792803.htm
Amigo Ronnie, Gus can testify on my behalf that i do like meatballs.
Anyone remember Malcolm Turnbull? Apparently, he’s not going away.
http://www.vexnews.com/news/7816/the-wilderness-years-malcolm-turnbull-sets-up-leaders-office-in-exile/
Pedant@1428:
Thanks for that insight, I think that is right. The difference is that in the US the candidates are tied much more closely to their electorates’ wishes than they are here, and they have a much greater propensity to pork barrel their own constituencies than here (though obviously it occurs).
Also I’d forgotten about the Mersey hospital fiasco, what it did was to galvanise everybody else with a less than perfect hospital system to say “what about me?” and was a net minus, so far as I could see at the time.
In the US, that would have been seen as par for the course, I suspect.
jaundiced view #1506
I suggest you read the CSIRO report!
Early white explorers tried to find the Great Inland Sea & failed; not because there isn’t one; there is, one of the world’s great freshwater lakes – The Great Artesian Basin – an important source of water, it is the world’s largest and deepest fresh water basin – but because it’s underground (where it can’t evaporate) fed by the vast inland Qld & N-NSW Darling-Lake Eyre catchment. Luckily, most of the GAB is regulated! Very much so! It provides Easter Australia & parts of NT & SA with a fall-back drinking water supply. (BTW: In a few weeks’ time, when the SEQ WaterGrid water pipeline up the Great Divide is completed, it will join the Toowoomba -> westward pipeline to the GBD near Surat.)
The main Darling problem occurs not in the areas its vast underground lake services, but SA Riverland & Adelaide. Even were Cubby & other big stations along the Darling (all the way well past Bourke) shut down, very little if any water would reach the Menindie Lakes, much less SA – in fact, due to evaporation & seepage into GAB, very little of Cubby’s water would make it down the riverbed as far as Bourke! Likewise, most of ag water “saved” by closing down Bourke stations, won’t (due to evaporation and seepage) exit the Menindie Lakes en route to SA! BTW: Those cotton farms’ major environmental impact isn’t their water storage, it’s contamination of water, soil & (sometimes) air from massive use of fertilisers & insecticides!
So water in y’r actual, above-ground Darling River with its very high evaporation & seepage rates, is only really a problem when the Murray flows into SA are insufficient to feed its agricultural & human needs – as has happened during the last two decades of severe drought. The question, therefore (before “What happens to the Darling’s above-ground water before it joins the Murray”) is “Is SA doing everything possible to attain water self-sufficiency?”
* Is SA proposing to shut down farm industries – in the same way as it’s demanding that Qld & N-NSW shut down valuable export crops – so SA gets their water; ie is SA shutting down water-hungry industries (ag & others) replicating those in Eastern states where water is less of a problem?
* Does SA insist that all industries, inc ag, have systems which minimise water use (eg, is below-ground drip-irrigation the system enforced, in all suitable circumstances, even in home gardens?
* Does it recycle all possible water to meet industrial, farm and, if necessary, human needs?
* Does it maximise rainfall capture in all buildings, inc apartment complexes and business & manufacturing buildings?
* Can it access more Artesian water?
* Can proposed/in-construction desalination plants meet its urban needs?
I’d excluded discussion of the Murray, since it only becomes relevant to discussion on the Darling at and after confluence.
i noticed the greens as predicted here will jump in to bed with any one.
no wonder this party does not attract too many to its ranks. How can you when they only see whats in it for them, What about tones other policies re gay rights which they fought tooth and nail for, What about the rights of woman in general.
The greens infuriate me.
yes i had not thought about this before tone does mix up his environment and global warming has no idea.
Can you just see it shovel in one hand bucket in the other and banner saying follow me.great cartoon i would think if it wasn’t so serious it would be funny.
GG @ #1515
http://www.vexnews.com/news/7816/the-wilderness-years-malcolm-turnbull-sets-up-leaders-office-in-exile/
Thanks for that link! It’s great!
No, they are not a branch of the ALP, sorry to say.
*rolls eyes*
Greensborough Growler @ # 1515
Anyone remember Malcolm Turnbull? Apparently, he’s not going away.
http://www.vexnews.com/news/7816/the-wilderness-years-malcolm-turnbull-sets-up-leaders-office-in-exile/
From the above reference I like the following comments by the Liberal Party insiders.
Abbott is a dud.
He also is a complete and utter socialist.
jv @ 1506
Demonstrating a total misunderstanding of how the system works!
The reason that cotton and rice are grown in NSW and not Vic is due to different water regimes. NSW does not guarantee the allocation of water, Vic does. So NSW attracts ‘opportunistic’ crops like cotton and rice, Vic has permanent plantings.
So when there isn’t adequate water in the system, cotton and rice are not grown.
Given this scenario, there is no problem growing these crops in Australia.
I’m all for Australian grown over imports. I like to know that what I’m using comes from a supervised regime with high standards governing things such as pesticide use, land clearing, fair wages for workers, etc.
So – in years when the water is there – I’d way prefer to buy Australian cotton and rice rather than imports.
PY @ 510
Which may be why these states are creaming NSW economically.
Oh dear, the nightmare is back.
Howies standing for re-election??
yes that link is great so is that what he thinks of Mr. rudd. how silly of me not to realise this.
what are you serios howie you must bejoking going to make some toast
hope i dont choke
so nervous i could not spell
Zoomster
That assumes that the surplus in high inflow years is not desperately needed for other things downstream in the M-D basin. Sadly, this is not the case.
The whole economics of growing cotton and rice on the Murray is crazy. They give farmers a good return per acre when they are grown. But we are not short of land we are short of water. So we should be looking at return per litre of water, not return per acre. In which case coton and rice are very bad crops to grow in a dry land. We would be environmentally and economically better off if many of those cotton and rice farms just closed down, no matter how little the farmers concerned may like hearing it. Knowing how damaging it is, I don’t buy Australian rice or cotton if I can avoid it.
I’m not sure that rice is too bad a crop water wise (always pleased to be enlightened) – the water is mainly used for paddies and then released again. So there would be some loss through evaporation but probably no more water wasteful than beef etc.
Which is an important point. One of the biggest (if not biggest) users of irrigation water is beef cattle. Far more damaging environmentally than cotton or rice, with far less return per kilo and far fewer people employed.
I’d agree that our whole system needs rejigging (I personally push kangaroo ‘farming’) but it needs to be done on a rational basis whereas a lot of what’s driving the rice/cotton debate isn’t (not lumping you in there, Soc, a general comment).
#1520
Bob1234 said
The original proposition was so preposterous as to be unworthy of comment.
However, if people really want to get down into the gutter, then I am quite happy to stoop down to their level. It would be difficult to know where to start.
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/4610.0.55.007/
OK, out there, educating myself:
the figures are:
Water use in MD basin:
Cotton 20%
Dairy 17%
Pasture 17%
Rice 16%
(This was one year, but we’ll use it as standard).
It was noted that cotton and rice were highly variable in their water use, I assume for the reasons I’ve already noted.
Interestingly, 100% of our rice is produced on the MD, can’t find a figure for cotton.
Don’t worry, it’s only natural that the masses attack what they are afraid of – a party of the left now consistently polling over 10% of the vote and continue to be on track to hold the sole balance of power after the next election.
A very good analysis here of Tony Abbott’s approach to the environment.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/combative-abbott-turns-green-message-on-its-head-20100114-ma8b.html
Gus, welcome to my nightmare, starring you know who.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/15/2792866.htm
Who does he think he’s kidding?
If he thinks he can emulate 1990, but from opposition, and with a naturally opposing party, he has rocks in his head.
His speech perpetuates the fiction that Australia is in danger of leading the world in climate change action. In fact, Europe has a well-established emissions trading scheme that has little or no impact on jobs and wealth.
from this piece. i always think australian have no idea what they do in europe
analysis here of Tony Abbott’s approach to the environment.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/combative-abbott-turns-green-message-on-its-head-20100114
Ratsars
What a nice “lying by omission” headline – BTW, Abbott’s being RC, “sins of omission” are as serious as “sins of commission” (as in this on a google search -thought you might enjoy considering it when listening to/ reading Abbott’s statements
)
Back on the topic: Wahoo! I thought. Sara HY’s supporting the repeal of Qld’s Wild Rivers Legislation? Be very afraid Franklin-below-Gordon! But NO! Not that mad yet!
Below the headline & Their ABC’s positive spin for Tony, we find:
Constitutionally water is a state government responsibility
so a successful referendum would be necessary for Federal control (as Tony proposes). Any other action depends on the 4 relevant states’ either voluntarily relinquishing control to the Feds (but not in such as way as to initiate a flood of High Court challenges) or the MDB committees/ commissions’ state reps (esp Victoria’s & SA’s) put state differences aside to tackle the problem. Currently, a referendum success seems more likely, although it has None/Nunn & Buckley’s of succeeding. No way Barnaby’s mob would vote for it – or, for that matter, QLD, NSW & Vic individually or as a whole.
So any carping (esp Greens’) on about the lack of Federal Government response over the MDB is nothing but Green (& SA) spin & grandstanding!
Sarah HY is a SA senator, and SA issues dominate (and how!) her posts on the MDB. As you might gather from my #1517 post, I’m less than impressed by SA’s constant carping about its right to MDB water (especially from the Darling) when suggestions (close down all ag in the upper western Q & N-NSW catchments) defy what we know about Darling River evaporation & seepage, and SA State Government’s own self-help efforts, esp in recycling & halting Eyre peninsula desertification are, to put it mildly, underwhelming, especially if one’s paying SEQ’s huge water bills & living with continuing restrictions!
Despite my own reservations re Traverston, especially re the lungfish’s preservation, I’m even less impressed after the FEDERAL Greens intervention in the STATE Traverston Dam issue especially when Greens offered no alternative, long-term, cost-effective replacement! Given that the easiest alternative – since the whole SEQ will, within weeks (if not days) be joined to the GAB at Surat – is drawing water from the GAB or tributaries of the Darling, it hardly fits the Greens’ image or helps SA’s cause!
That aside, I decided to re-read the Greens’ relevant policy, the main plank of which, despite its position in a list, is public ownership and control of all major water supply, distribution, drainage and disposal systems. Hey, read the Federal Constitution, will ya!
In Qld (can’t speak for other states), to the best of my knowledge State ownership is still in place, as it had been for as long as I can remember (ie, QLd meets that green policy criterion). In fact, I’m almost certain that river etc banks have been inalienably owned by the State Government since the Land Acts of the 1880s (which stipulate gov ownership of the number of Imperial chains – c 20 meters – from water for each bank); initially as an anti-”peacocking” law. My understanding is that almost all states introduced similar anti-peacocking legislation. In fact, given the Constitution, though states might sell off water infrastructure to private enterprise, they cannot alienate control of rivers (except into World Heritage listings) without facing HCA challenges – successful, I’d presume.
So all the Commonwealth needs is a court ruling that the States’ use of the MDB is not “reasonable”, and then the Commonwealth can take enough control to return water use to “reasonable” levels?
#1538
Reading Newspapers 101 – Headlines are designed by sub=editors to attract readers attention. They headline may bear little resemblance to the story presented by the journalist.
I’m a little surprised that The Aus hasn’t got more coverage of Tony’s speech splashed across it’s online site. Maybe the hard copy does the honour?
The Federal election is going to interesting: It’s looking like Abbott will either be the savour for the Coalition or the guy who provided them with an extra term on the Opposition benches…
#1541
ala Latham ?
Zoom
FYI this presentation gives a pretty good explanation of how complex understanding the watrer usage of different crops is. It talks about “water footprints” of different crops and products:
http://www.helsinki.fi/henvi/research/scienceday09/GerbensLeenes_16042009.pdf
There is a good “bottom line” table on page 3. The key point is:
1 kg of wheat = 1 cubic metre of water
1 kg of rice = 3 cubic metres of water
Calculating the cotton “footprint” is mre complex but usually it is even worse than rice.
1 kg of cotton = 4 cubic metres of water (extrapolated from tables on page 9/10)
anyway you can see that growing high water requirement crops here is crazy. We would be better off growing wheat, grapes, citrus and other grains and buying in rice from SE Asia.
Socrates,
What’s the difference between wet- and dry-field rice growing?
Both in water use and in productivity?
Sorry if it was in your link, but my ancient computer, slow link & dodgy browser Adobe plug-in couldn’t get it open.
Socrates
I agree. It’s time we had a “Help Save the Murray. Don’t buy Australian rice or cotton” campaign.
It seems SA Police have been watching too many US style cop shows.
Idiots.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,1,26590522-952,00.html
OzPol – you have written some really interesting and informative stuff today re water.
Can I suggest you go on the site the greens have set up for public comment and give SHY your info on the GAB (which I learnt about in SA schools til I knew it back to front) – please.
She is showing a lot of immaturity and needs to be told when she is wRONg or at least made aware of her lack of real knowledge.
And the ABC need a few emails to get them to correct their headline. As usual the headline does not reflect the story. Makes me mad as h.ll and I hate taking it!!
zoomster #1532
Pleeeeeeease! MDB water used for irrigation can come from TWO different sources
(1) above ground as in rivers, lakes, dams etc
(2) below ground ie, the Great Artesian Basin
While both come from the same source – rainfall – and river waters feed the GAB via seepage; the GAB does not increase the supply of water in the rivers! Thus irrigation using GAB water does not take water out of the rivers!
In some cases, GAB water needs to be held in settlement dams and/or treated, as it’s high in minerals (I have the copper-blue loo you get, not from a toilet-block colourant but GAB mineral-rich water!)
Note that rivers flowing towards Lake Eyre also augment GAB water supply!
Unless MDB water usage figures differentiate between sources, they are fairly meaningless unless the source of the water (river or artesian) is given!
Pleeeeeeeease, pleeeeeeease try to think in terms of TWO MDBs, the river system and the much greater underground lake system.
Evan, I have found a better station Than 2GB when it comes to government bashing and pushing the coalition barrow. From 7:00 pm weeknights on 2HD (Newcastle) and through the Radio News network which from talkbalk callers reaches through NSW and into QLD. I know they are only catering for their demographic which appears to be retirees and “ruston ons”, but last night a comment took the cake. A lady came on and related to listeners that she has a fixed line which is silent and she and her husband had only distributed the their contact number to family and friends. Apparantly someone sent a text to the effect “All Retards to be shipped overseas in 2010″ (or somesuch). Then she reminds us that she is a regular caller who has a disabled son and who calls (talkback) often complianing about the Rudd govt. So with some really bizarre sleuthing she puts 2 and 2 together and gets Planks Constant, and surmises that the telco provider has provided the Govt with her number, and someone within government has sent her the nasty text in retalliation for her anti labour stances…Mind Boggling
Kersebleptes
Sorry I don’t know the answer on wet- and dry-field rice growing. Obviously there are different production methods, some more or less demanding of water, for all crops. But the point is that some crops by their nature need more water than others. Rice and Cotton are crops that need a comparatively large amount of water.
The gist of the report I linked to is that the world as a whole is better off if people grow the crops that suit their environment best, and import crops that are better suited to other climates. This is a world wide issue; not just Australian. The 70s/80s trend towards “cash crops” distorted agricultural patterns badly.
Here’s the website of the Great Artesian Basin Coordinating Committee:
http://www.gabcc.org.au/index.aspx</a
And, on the same site, a link to a basic PDF factsheet…
http://www.gabcc.org.au/tools/getFile.aspx?tbl=tblContentItem&id=12</a
Fair enough, Socrates. The reason I asked is that maybe the loss in productivity from switching to dry-field is so great that it becomes uneconomic in the MDB. If so, then rice cultivation in the MDB is uneconomic no matter what.
Of course, all this assumes that farmers have already changed insane practices such as moving precious water around in shallow, unlined channels! From what I can tell (and admittedly I live perched on the east coast, and haven’t been near the Murray or Darling for about five years), these easy but destructive methods have some way to go before they are stamped out.
Hmmm
Abbott’s speech is very clever on a number of fronts.
The big flimflam is that Abbott is trying to pretend that climate change outcomes are all ‘environmental’ outcomes rather than social and economic outcomes. This bypasses the hip-pocket nerve. This is clever stuff. It is deliberate – he has been at it for a while now. If he is ‘right’, then the negative impacts of climate change will be ‘fixed’ by Action Man’s 15,000 people along with their native plants, shovels and fencing equipment.
The obvious questions for perceptive journos to ask Abbott are:
1. What impact do you expect climate change to have on Australian agriculture over the next 50 years? Will the Green Army prevent this from happening?
2. What impact do you expect rising sea levels to have on people living by the sea? Will the Green Army stop sea levels from rising?
Another reasonable follow-up question would be:
3. ‘Mr Abbott you routinely use words such as, ‘many scientists believe’ or ‘some scientists believe’. Does this mean that you do not? Why don’t you use the more direct phrase, ‘I believe…’? Is it because you are using welsh words to avoid having to say that you, and your main supporters inside the party, still believe that climate change is crap?
4. Abbott’s get out of jail phrase here is the ‘precautionary principle’. This is a neat twist because he shows absolutely no interest in using the precautionary principle in any other environmental context. Normally, you only use the precautionary principle when you are uncertain of something but believe that something might occur which is so serious that you simply have to do something about it. So Abbott is using the phrase ‘precautionary principle’ to dodge having to say something direct about how likely he thinks CC is. The question for a perceptive journalist here would be:
5. ‘Mr Abbott you often use the term ‘precautionary principle’. This could mean ‘just in case CC is real’. Mr Abbott, how likely do you think it is that CC is real?’
Abbott also uses the term ‘lock up’ referring to national parks. This is standard National Party shorthand for we want to get access to the timber and grazing in national parks and we don’t want any more national parks, anywhere, ever. There are National Pary colleagues of Mr Abbott who would love to degazette national parks.
So the journo should ask another question:
6. Mr Abbott, you regularly use the phrase ‘lock up’ in relation to wild rivers. Do you support national parks and do you support the development of a national reserve system representing around 15% of all of Australia’s ecoystems?
Then there is the really curly one for Mr Abbott, yet to be asked:
7. ‘Mr Abbott, what in your view, will be the impact on the Australian economy of ocean acidification? How long do you think the Great Barrier Reef will survive? How long do you think Australia’s commercial fisheries will survive?
The press questioning of Abbott so far on these issues has had all the impact of blancmange sliding off a plate onto the table. I look forward with great anticipation to an improvement.
Kersebleptes
A lot of Fed money is going into revamping the irrigation water distribution infrastructure with a view to water saving. It is necessarily slow and expensive. And we have not generally had enough rain to redeply major savings so far.
Lest we minimise the damage being wreaked by the big irrigators in the M-D system, we’d better be quite clear about the fact that the level of water taken from the M-D system is untenable, and many of the crops grown are totally inappropriate – especially cotton and rice.
From the M-D Basin Commission itself:
In summary, the main causes of wetland degradation include:
• changes in river hydrology caused by regulation of flow and diversion of water
• blockage of floodplain flows caused by causeways, levee banks and structures
• disposal of stormwater, sewage and irrigation effluent into wetlands
• excessive grazing by stock, feral and native animals
• cropping on floodplains and lake beds
• introduced fish species and aquatic weeds
• rising saline groundwater beneath floodplains , and
• urban and recreational developments.
http://www2.mdbc.gov.au/nrm/water_issues/flood_plain_management/flood_plain_wetland_management_strategy/
Also the irrigators are causing land degradation and over-salination:
http://www2.mdbc.gov.au/__data/page/126/GW17-24.pdf
The artesian basin is a fragile phenomenon that cannot be blithely plundered as an ongoing water resource or an alternative to raping the river system. Some of it is already in trouble, and other parts are unuseable from the beginning.
In relation to the Federal takeover of the MDB, Mr Abbott should be made to answer the following questions:
1. Mr Abbott, what percentage of the MDB inflows do you intend to allocate to environmental flows?
2. Mr Abbott in relation to the thousands of dying River Red Gums, what priority would you give to immediate allocation of environmental flows to save the River Red Gum forests?
3. Mr Abbott how soon after successfully gaining control of the MDB water would you get rid of all restraints on interstate water trading?
4. Mr Abbott, what would be your policy on allowing a free market in MDB water to cities, in particular to Melbourne?
5. Mr Abbott what steps would you take to prohibit water-expensive crops in the MDB?
6. Mr Abbott what steps would you take to closing irrigation districts and irrigation channels rather than the current outcome, which is ‘dead’ irrigation farms pepperpotted in Districts and along channels?
7. Mr Abbott what steps would you take to deal with the over-allocation issues in Queensland and in New South Wales?
8. Mr Abbott what steps would you take to closing down irrigation districts which are most distant from inflow areas (ie all those in South Australia) and re-allocating the water to irrigation districts closer to inflow areas. This would of course enable huge savings in terms of evaporation and soakage.
Chaning governance arrangements is the eay bit. The politically difficult bit is embedded in the above questions.
I look forward to perceptive journalists asking Mr Abbott the hard questions about his MDB policy.
Boerwar,
Yeah. I suppose much of it is simply the difference between laying out proper infrastructure (slow, expensive, but worth it), and simply scraping a ditch with your backhoe (quick, cheap, and counter-productive).
Anticipate away! But I do hope you have someone who can bring you food and water every now and then while you are on that vigil…
Dubbs – that’s the station we get here. It is frightening on some occasions. They are full on with ‘People Power’ and organising emails, etc. to kick Rudd out this year. Some of the callers are literally fruitcakes but what they say is taken as gospel.
This is the mob that John Laws is apparently going to join. He will have to sign up to the Citizens Electoral Lobby mob and spout forth all the Lavache (or whatever his name is) rhetoric to survive the audience.
I’ve had to tune out completely for fear of going ‘bananas’ myself.
Boerwar – please send all that stuff to the responsible journos like Phil Coorey or KO’B. Tony Jones wouldn’t have the courage to ask them anymore. The questions would never be asked by the current crop of ABC journos.
BTW – does anyone know if Joe O’Briend (ABC2 breakfast) is married or partnered. He seems awfully immature in his comments and interviewing. My 20 year old grandson asks better questions than Joe.
jv
Forty years ago I used to go fishing in the Murray and in also the Darling. We caught lots of different species of native fish including a fair share of keepers. Now, in the same places we used to fish, and pretty well excepting the put-and take- Murray Cod fishery, mostly all you get is European carp.
Irrigation plus drought plus salinity plus water temperatures changes plus killing off most of the floods, has practically destroyed the MDB native fish fauna within a single generation.
Boerwar
Yes, sad indeed. On a brighter note I do know of one glorious stretch of the upper Namoi where Murray Cod and Yellowbelly have been successfully re-introduced and where the river is healthy with shrimps and its own local species of turtle – but that’s way up in the western slopes before any dams and before the irrigators can get at the water.
I see that Abbott is going to allocate $750,000,000 a year on the 15,000 Green Army. that is $50,000 a pop.
I can think of some better ways of spending $750,000,000 on the environment.
jv
Nice. Nature can be resilient if it is given the chance.
Boerwar – From the 50s -70s we used to go on fishing holidays at Renmark and Mildura. The cod used to be terrific. We’d sit up on the roots of the big river gums where they stood out of the water and have a great time.
Went back there a few years ago and it looked like most of the old trees were gone and the river was full of carp. Drought is a lousy thing and the irrigators haven’t helped themselves. They used to have the water running almost 24/7 for years.
A cousin recently had to get out of orange crops and sell because it all became too hard.
OH now uses carp fertiliser on the garden and it’s great. Perhaps if we all start using it we might get rid of some of the monsters.
Boerwar – #1553
Great questions.
In the spirit of fairness, all those questions should be asked of Mr Rudd, replacing “green army” with “your 5% ETS”.
BH
It is amazing the shattering amount of damage that has been done in our lifetime to the Murray Darling.
The only sort of thing that will really knock European Carp around will be something like the daughterless carp stuff, I think, that CSIRO is working on. But I tend to think of them as symptoms of a destroyed system rather than as perps – although no doubt they have contributed as well.
PY
Fair enough.
PY
On second thoughts, perhaps not quite fair enough. I think the questions should apply in the context of each party’s total environmental offerings.
Jus thope you’re not holding your breath while waiting…
Hear, hear. No point in letting Abbott get away with his past mutterings or inaction.
He is already blaming this Federal Govt. for Peter Spencer’s problems and that of other farmers. The MDB has happened in the last 2.3 years and the hospitals were perfect before Rudd got his hands on them.
The ‘great big tax’ is a charge but Jim Middleton this morning on ABC2 did not refute Abbott’s claims.
So we can’t let him off the hook with his very expensive Green Army.
Of course, as said earlier today, he is probably looking to the young semiretired to form his Army because many of them already exist in rural Land Care groups.
He’ll entice them with some form of payment no doubt.
Grog
Breathing in deep, holding it a very short while, controlling the breathing out… beats hyperventilating every time.
I believe Newspoll will do their first Federal poll for the year this weekend.
My predictions
Liberal 35, National 4, (Coalition 39) – Labor 41, Green 12, Others 8
TPP : Coalition 46 – 54 Labor
Preferred PM : Rudd 57 : Abbott 25
“The Australian” will love it!
BH
If he is clever, he will outsource management of the Green Army to environment groups. They will then have a stake in his $750,000,000.
Politically astute.
Remember how the Salvos went after they helped hyena the corpse of the old CES? Remember how the Salvos got themselves involved in Howard’s war on drugs? (Until there were so many complaints about the politicisation of the Salvos that the Brig (or whatever) concerned had to pull his head in?
That’s how you ‘buy’ influence and get good public feedback and support. Abbott would be well aware of this tried and tested Howard model.
The Greens Party, incidentally, is absolutely right to pick out the bits of Abbott’s environment policies they like and publicly support them. They would like nothing better going into the forthcoming election than a bidding war between Labor and the Coalition for their preferences. Makes sense to me.
Two of the USA right wing’s finest! Such ignorance!
http://www.thepoliticalcarnival.net/2010/01/most-recent-quote-othe-day-palins.html
Socrates, rice crops are suited to the Ord River Irrigation Scheme area
Although rice isn’t listed as one of the area’s current main crops, it is possible to shift rice-growing out of the MIA to the Ord. With the right incentives, rice growers might move – although The Ord is isolated & essential services limited.
Cotton may again be grown in the Ord
Shifting cotton – & closing down any sort of SWQ/ N-NSW properties in the Upper Darling Catchment (as SA & some Green groups advocate) – presents a much greater human & ethical dilemma than shifting rice, as such moves deprive those who live there – inc. relatively large Indigenous populations, many living on Tribal lands – of any chance of earning an income if pastoral & grain properties, and cotton growing are closed down.
So the Big Question facing decision makers – and lobby groups like the Greens – is: Is it ethical to deprive Up-stream Darling Basin populations (with relatively large Indigenous populations) of their livelihood, homes, communities, towns and services like health & education, effectively forcing them to shift or regress, to meet the needs of Down-stream populations who’ve lived in the areas less than 200 years?
Like Qld’s Wild River legislation, removing Darling Basin agricultural & pastoral industries Up-stream of mid-NSW brings the rights of people – mostly Indigenous – into conflict with small “g” green/ conservation groups policies on land use.
This ethical conflict is explored by Cosima Marriner in The murky waters of Queensland’s wild rivers
So, indeed, do policies on shutting down cotton, broadacre farming, and pastoral activities in the Upper Darling catchment – a dilemma the Greens won’t face!
A dilemma which the relevant Greens “shadow” spokesperson, Senator Hanson-Young’s being a South Australian with a major conflict of interest & a very SA point-of-view in her on-web postings, isn’t helping to resolve.
As for bushwalking ‘showing’ that you are environmentalist, didn’t millions of young Germans go bushwalking during the pre WW2 years?
I suppose that some of them turned out to be interested in the environment but, really Mr Abbott, most of them then went off and trashed Europe.
Totally agree re the Greens and the bidding war. And every word Abbott uttered last night was Howards.
Has Peter Garrett done anything about Land Care groups? What would be the reaction if Labor said ‘yes – good idea’ and funded the same kind of thing.
I can’t see how young people can sign up to a Green Army except as volunteers on weekends as per lifesaving. It’s not so exciting as a weekend pursuit. And if Abbott is basing it on the age group of rural fire service volunteers then he’s in dreamland. It’s excruciatingly hard to get enough volunteers in rural areas.
I agree it is politically astute but his past will catch up with him.
I think the Govt. should just give the Parks & Wildlife more money to employ people permanently to do the cleanups that Abbott is talking about. It would help all those middle/upper ages who are having difficulty getting employment (and there are a lot in that category).
Boerwar: “As for bushwalking ’showing’ that you are environmentalist, didn’t millions of young Germans go bushwalking during the pre WW2 years?”
…
“Rick: Well, pay attention. Mary, right, who’s that tall girl doing geoggers…
Vyvyan: OH! You mean the one with the enormous t!ts!
Rick: They’re minu…Vyvyan, would you stop being so sexist? they’re called breasts, and everybody has them.
Vyvyan: Well, I don’t.
Rick: Yes, and nor did Adolf Hitler!”
OPT 1574
I agree. If we are going to grow rice we should grow it in places like that. High rainfall areas in the QLD/NSW coast would probably also be suitable except that they can presumably make more money with sugar cane.
I don’t agree that this shift poses an ethical dilemna though. If people on the M-D can only make a living by ruining their environment and sending others downstream broke too then they aren’t behaving ethically now. It is ethical to stop them.
OPT
I have been following this one with some interest. There has been a considerable reluctance on the part of many of the players to work off either context or principle. Here are a few observations:
1. The folk who have trashed the MDB are now looking north. Would we trust them to get inland water resource use right in north of Australia?
2. The folk who trashed the MDB have never supported Indigenous issues in the past. Why are they suddenly supporting Indigenous issues in relation to the wild rivers? Clearly it is because they believe they have a wedge.
3. Most of soils in the catchment of the wild rivers concerned are useless for agriculture. That is why they are mostly still uncleared, ie ‘wild’.
4. Point-based developments such as lodges are possible, not impossible under the legislation. Repeated statements to the contrary, by, inter alia, Abbott, are bald-faced lies.
5. Mining will still have open slather.
6. Some of the media presentation of the issues has been of the usual OO standard. None of the Indigenous folk who inhabit the Cape, and who support greater funding for management of Indigenous land for conservation purposes, have been either intereviewed or represented in the visuals. Not one. I know quite of a few of them.
7. I would have preferred to see a multiple-use approach that integrates development with conservation and with a lot more direct consultation between the Queensland government and local and regional Indigenous communities and organisations. Coupled, of course, with significant investment. (After all, the WA and Federal Goverments have just allocated yet another $400 million+ for the Ord scheme expansion. I hope they end paying some taxes up there some time, the Ord Scheme has soaked enough taxpayers’ funds in its time.)
8. I note also the consistent use of the term ‘lock up’ in the Wild Rivers debate by the conservative parties. This is shorthand for, ‘We want to pillage all of nature for our personal profit, without let or hindrance.’
9. I have never met anybody who wants to dam rivers who has been able to explain to me what qualitative difference it would make to leave one last river free to flow to the sea. They are constitutionally incapable of stopping themselves until it is all gone.
Further to 1578, I think the vast majority of cotton farms are owned by wealthy whites. If we are concerned about indigenous employment, turn them into national parks and pay local indigenous communities to rehabilitate them and act as rangers.
Hence I really see no ethical dilema too. The change will be unpopular with those who have to change, but that does not make it unethical. If that were so we would still have slavery, becaues the slave owners would be economically harmed by ending slavery. Too bad; they are the ones causing the harm.
OPT
I wasn’t suggesting eliminating broad acre framing on the Murray Darling. In some places with poor soil, yes it should end there. But in most areas, we just need to get back to appropriate crops, and reducing water demands to within sustainable yields. that means rice and cotton should go. But wheat, corn etc in the right places, and orchard crops like citrus and olives are fine. Of course, those either make less money or require more work.
However, I don’t apologise for saying that we DON”T owe all farmers a living. We are better off without those who badly manage their land. I have lived and worked in country Qld and seen far too many examples of such people.
I’m not sure how it exactly happens. Whether they invite him on, or he invites himself on, Abbott is always getting soundbites on ABC Radio news bulletins.
Yesterday, there were Abbott soundbites in TWO stories in the SAME bulletin. First, Abbott with his “commentary” on the unemployment figures. Then, less than a minute later, same bulletin, separate story, Abbott got airtime to pre-spruik for last night’s speech.
It’s getting to the point that it’s bloody ridiculous. It’s not exaggerating too much to say, ABC Radio news bulletins are beginning to sound like ‘The Hourly Liberal Party Segment’.
Given their ABC gives SO much airspace to this Liberal, they should be putting him under the harsh spotlight of scrutiny, not just opening the microphones to him with a “Go for it!”
The questions proposed by Boerwar in 1553 and 1556 for “perceptive journalists” would be a very, very good start.
Boerwar, congratulations on your questions. You’d make a far more perceptive journo than the mostly brown-nosers in the MSM.
I hope you email the list to their ABC.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2010/01/08/morgan-57-43-4/comment-page-32/#comment-388059
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2010/01/08/morgan-57-43-4/comment-page-32/#comment-388054
Crkey today on Tabbott’s green scheme
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/01/15/abbott%E2%80%99s-army-powerless-against-climate-change/#comments
OPT@1574:
What do you plan to do about the rats and the magpie geese?
http://www.nt.gov.au/pfes/index.cfm?fuseaction=page&p=48&m=22&sm=48&crumb=33
don
It’s OK, we’ll just have to introduce exotic buffalo-toads and rat-toads.
Cuppa
Don’t forget Tony’s weekly address to the nation via their ABC’s 7’30 Report
They’ll move him to Lateline once Red Kerry comes back so he still gets a soft ride.
On Abbotts speech
I notice he is being ignored by Labor as the irrelevent lightweight he is. He would hate that, the being ignored, a bit of poo to be scraped off the bottom of Kev’s RMW boots
Not surprised by anything the Greens say, Milne did come out when Labor announced it’s ETS policy and said the Libs had more enviromental credentials than labor. The Greens need a Coalition govt to be relevant, until then they will sit with and vote with Barnaby in the senate
And the MSM are letting the side down when poor Tone has to go on TV and talk up how great he is himself! Saw and ABC clip of him saying he was a greenie bushwalker, a life saver and a firerfighter!
What a guy!!!
Explains Abbotts last 2 week promotion on 7.30 Report and his big “green” speech yesterday.
The Haiti tragedy has stiffled his coverage
Comments section of Crikey – someone has tabbed Tabbott pretty well.
Wise words, vera.
Bob Brown’s letter of 22 December 2009 will be on Rudd’s desk on Monday when he gets into the office.
Could this be the reason Abbott has told us about his bushwalking skills?
Copy cat
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinruddpm/4267815717/in/photostream/
Kev’s been having a nice break known the country is in Julia’s safe hands
From his twitter
The ABC hands the floor to Liberal Michael Keenan:
Labor has put our security in jeopardy
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2792543.htm
It’s their ABC.
Vera – OH hops channels when Abbott comes on, even with the 7.30 Report which has been a religion here for yonks.
If there is newspoll he will probably get a bit of rise just for being out there and perhaps that may be the OO’s intention for this weekend. Before Kev gets back, i.e.
And PY – Brown had better have good intentions of reasonableness instead of just looking political gains like Abbott. If the recent Morgan poll re CC is any guide then Brown needs to make sure that Abbott does not get back the old Howard votes.
BH
I like the sounds of your OH
When Abbott comes on TV I abuse him then throw GG’s bundled socks!
BH – #1593
The correspondence between the partys proves it all BH. Strangely, Labor wont put their position in writing.
Cuppa – I saw Keenan on ABC the other day – he was actually woeful most of the time.
It was one of the few times Joe O’Brien tried to get answers as to what the Oppn would do about AS. Of course he got nowhere but at least he tried several times. It caught Keenan flatfooted. He probably expected the usual ‘easy go for Libs’ from O’Brien.
On the other hand – maybe O’Brien was trying to show that Keenan could toughit out!!
Must ask GG to get heaps ready for distribution to us before the campaign. I won’t mind if they’ve got holes in them or saggy tops.
BTW Vera – I think OH uses his Welsh swear words to. Something to the effect that ‘I don’t really care about politics but I don’t want my night ruined by a failed Lib’.
Rudd being the political genius at the cricket, self-effacing, informed, witty, perceptive (damn! North out!). What a contrast with the tragi-comic Howard!
Typical. Why don’t they just hand the airwaves over to the Liberals? Make it a formal thing instead of just playing footsies under the table.
BH
LOL, yep we’d better put our orders in to GG now, get in early before the rush,
Cuppa
Their ABC might be doing more harm than good with the overexposure of everything Liberal.
There is such a thing as overkill, tends to turn folks off
Notice that SBS takes a lot of their political coverage direct from Skynews. Had a lesser Lib (don’t recall his name) on the other night with the Sky logo on the screen.
Typical women are we, Vera. Always thinking!! says she, ducking for cover.
Have you read some of the terrific stuff by the guys this am on water. They are more knowledgeable than the MSM. Can’t work out why Murdoch thinks his way of doing things is superior.
Vera@1591:
Those criticising Kev’s bushwalking gear earlier should have a look at that photo.
He’s got a decent warm coat, (it is raining more often than not on Cradle, and snow can fall any time of the year), he’s got joggers on (perfectly adequate for the whole of the Overland Track, which is what I wear all the time. Much better than boots except for deep mud, far better grip on dry or wet rock). I once walked it with a German backpacker who wore socks and sandals the entire way, through mud and water and dry going. And he’s got a good hat – the UV is fierce on the Overland Track, and the Cradle end is the highest.
But the locals think they invented bushwalking (as do the Kiwis, but they call it tramping, they can’t even get the term right!) and Kev would have copped flak from Tassie bushwalkers who think that you can’t go down to the supermarket in anything less than heavy boots.
yes BH all that rice and cotton growing and MDB info is terrific stuff
The Community Cabinet meetings start up again next week
lol Don, those Tasmanians are a different breed
Thanks for CC info, Vera.
Cuppa @1582
Have you noticed how often in those soft spots on their ABC that Abbott manages to get a plug in for his book?
Yes, I have Polyquats. Forget which ABC network it was on, but Abbott was asked (paraphrasing), “then what are your policies?” He circumlocuted for a moment, then said (paraphrasing), “if you want to find out, it’s all in my book”. And the, ahem, journalist, left it at that.
It’s pretty blatant bias isn’t it?
William
I assume you have seen the item on the Morgan poll in today’s Crikey?
Polyq & Cuppa – send an email and ask why they allow advertising on the ABC.
Of course, it’s one big advertisement for the OO with all the commentators and pieces they use from there. If they don’t take their leads from the OO its Skynoos on radio, telly and newsonline.
Perhaps the Govt. should tell them to start using their own journos to fossick out info. and FACT.
Just another random bashing of an Indian?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/15/2793324.htm
I lately find myself having to email them about once a week, BH, on average. They don’t always reply either.
Folks, as per the regular request – preview function for posts coming soon.
Poss@1613:
Woohooo!
Thanks Poss!
Boerwar , Morgan has a PPM and preferred labor and Lib leader polls out too
Rudd 61/25 over Abbott
Morgan also have a phone poll taken over 13th and 14th
54.5/45.5
their previous phone poll was
53/47
*rushes in*
IT’S THE NARROWING!!!
*rushes out*
Preferred Prime Minister
Morgan 15 January
61-25
Newspoll 07 December
60-23
Newspoll 30 November
65-14
Newspoll 23 November
63-22
Nah its the Abbott honeymoon.
Possum
Excellent. Is this the one with the inbuilt hack filter – an automatic function that translates the usual turgid party message into interesting original thoughts of intellectual and literary merit with an overlay of gentle humour?
Can’t Catholics organise an annulment if there is no consumation during the honeymoon?
BK
*haha*
vera
ta
jv are you advocating a PB internet filter? Conroy would be proud of you.
#1620
You’re dreamin’……
i have a friend who met mr rudd while walking and said the people chated happily to him and they all had a great afternoon and how the youngesters chatted and ask questions.
People loved seeing him and where up set when others heard that had not been on the same track.
He was very popular he and his lovley family. good on him for holidaying in my home state. the treasure and the jewel of aus.
and guess what the weather was perfect.
ruawake
well, I know I am opposed to censorship, but when something on the net is truly offensive, action must be taken.
Conroy gives us the lead on what to do. We can set up a review committee (leave it to me – Possum and Diogenes can be two members to start with). We’ll make a secret list of the offensive (to us) hackery that will be the subject of literary ‘tweaking’ via the filter. But of course, I have to get my instructions from the Non-Hack Lobby Group before I can do anything. it was their idea, not mine.
So I guess the general consensus is that Abbott’s eco policy agenda ranks alongside with Turnbull’s stimulus “policy” or the Libs “boat” policy. In that it is all fluff, no ideas, in fact a days worth of chip wrappings.
Abbott still has the two Liberal Parties problem, he may think he can be an elephant sliding down a razor blade using his stones as brakes, but the end result is painful, can he unite the opposing factions? – I doubt it.
dear poss i am always loosing my place in the blogs on the side could you please put a date. now i cannot find todays morgan. I like to read and re read these polls
it makes my day.there are so many different subjects at the moment.
some one may be able to tell what page its on .
SA Greens Senator “oz should boycott china” Hanson Young , therefor is a proven fool so her talkin about th MRB can not be listend to at all
now soputh australians here continue with MRB red herrings about telling NSW/Q’ld farmers what they should grow
instead
why do South Australians not advocote tclosing down th water hungery SA Riverland irigaton farms now?
why do South australians NOT tell us what % of water and th gigee lites would get evorporatd from NSW rivers by th time it got to th Cooroong ?
why do Southaustralians pretend there is no undr land water basin in Q’ld/NSW where farms etc get water from ?
why do south australians tell us th % of MRB river water & gigee liters used for farming FROM th river itself , and not from under ground ?
why do South australians given drought & CC , advorcate suporting THERE SA water intensive farming in SA ilogicaly so distant from th MRB water sourse ?
why do South australians think water runing IN Q’ld and NSW somehow for South australians agric use , and not for Q’ld/NSW agric use where th river water actualy ar ?
why do South australians not understand undr th constitutoin th States wheres th Rivers water run is THERE business to run/manage as Q’ld /NSW think fit ?
POint is south australians wont fase these abov questons , and rely on Mr X and Geeen Senator Hanson youngs crazy phony slutons & State bashin , its all there fault
Point is south australians ar carping instead of realising not enuf water falls in SA itself , maybe Soth australia should be moved , and there is a CC itself causing plus normal drought making th MRB at a low 20% water storeage levels , so not enuf water anyway
AND Point is that Q’ld/NSW (plus Vic) ar being very generous to South australians given there crapy carping false arguments , to actualy co operativly join th MRB authority to help south australians and practicly for all oz try improve th MRB longer terms with caps on consumpton etc
SA should happly embrase th MRB authority , contribut to th MRB authority instwead of carpin and undermining it , a historic co op efort by Q’ld NSW plus Vic to fix th MRB in time , not todays asp roblam took a long time to grow and take long tome to fix , if CC does not get it altogethr
Socrates #1580
I think you missed the point. Small farming communities are inverted pyramids, the point of which is the owner/s – or the group/company owning – who rarely lives in the region – or, increasingly, even in the nation.
*Layered above the point are service providers – local farm supply & maintenance businesses;
* then local businesses (usually small local businesses & para/professionals) which/who service the service providers – butcher, baker, shop owners, doctor, hair-dresser, servo owner/manager etc as well as clubs (golf, bowls RSL);
* then those (usually individuals) who service the butcher, baker, shops, servos etc etc – cleaners, shelf-stockers, those who work in snack bars, cafes, pubs, clubs.
* The inverted “base” includes those supported by those employed.
As the “points” close down or are bought out, with the land let revegetate, the inverted pyramids above them collapse. Farm businesses (usually local branches of big companies) pull out or close down; businesses go broke or close, proprietors lose their investments and employment goes with them. People with house mortgages can’t make payments, and can’t sell for enough to satisfy the banks as house prices crash. private & government services close – health, education, clubs, library, doctors etc – and para/ professionals leave. Those who stay survive on welfare.
Ironically, many of these towns & their farm industries use GAB water Not that Greens exhibit any indication that they understand the difference between GAB & river water. Do they even know about the GAB and how its used?
Two decades of drought have dried up the rivers, farm dams, state dams. Across inland Australia, that drought’s effects on local communities are similar to those above, but nowhere as devastating as they would be if cash-crops (cotton) & pastoral activities were shut down in the name of putting more water back in the rivers – almost all of which will be lost to seepage & evaporation!
All towns in the Upper Darling’s catchment areas in Q & the top half of NSW have significant Aboriginal populations living on tribal lands (which often inclue towns). Most are semi-skilled or unskilled workers, although some are skilled workers. So, if farm industries go, their only real choice is whether or not to stay in “Country”, the latter with little or no hope of service provision or employment.
All this destruction of ordinary people’s lives, livelihoods investment in homes and businesses – all so SA gets the Upper Darling’s water!
And you see no ethical dilemma?
but the owner is the top of a pyramid of local businesses & people who depend on it for a livelyhood – from the manager & accountant near the top, to those who clean local premises, collect garbage, have a part-time job in servos, pubs, cafes etc. Take away the top business
PS I Should have deleted the last para.
Good Afternoon all!
As Vera said earlier, the ABC have been falling all over themselves to pimp Abbott & the Liberals.
According to “Their ABC”, the Greens support Abbott’s supposed “Environmental Revolution” – really? Maybe they should ask Sarah Hansen Young!
Rudd was commentating on the TV Cricket Coverage earlier!
Even better: my man Peter Siddle finally got wickets!
evan14
I think Butt is about to seek asylum.
Oz Pol
whilst your points on ethical & aboriginee use of land ar corect re MRB , your reply is TO a red herring MRB argument of what NSW/Q’ld farmers should grow
rather than th reel issues raised by you zoom , me and othrs that th SA brigade & there 2 phony based Senators Green Young & independ Mr X ar unable to reealtic addres , its called States pride they’re reely hurting & fair enuf but there arguments do not stand logicaly
The Pakistanis need a fielding coach, and a running between the wickets coach.
Thank goodness Rudd is back on the job next week – will the media stop fawning over Abbott? Probably not!
New thread.