Nov 10, 2012

# Seat of the week: Boothby

Last held by Labor in 1949, the southern Adelaide suburbs seat of Boothby has been trending in the party's direction since the early Howard years.

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UPDATE (12/11/12): Essential Research has Labor gaining ground for the second week in a row to attain their best position since March last year. They now trail 52-48, down from 53-47, from primary votes of 37% for Labor (steady), 45% for the Coalition (down one) and 9% for the Greens (steady). Also featured are monthly personal approval ratings, which last time had both leaders up in the immediate aftermath of Julia Gillard’s sexism and misogyny speech. Whereas Gillard has maintained her gains, her approval steady at 41% approval and disapproval down two to 49%, Tony Abbott has fallen to his worst net result ever, his approval down four to 33% and disapproval up four to a new low of 58%. Gillard’s lead as preferred prime minister is up from 43-36 to 45-32, her best result since February 2011. Also canvassed are options on how the government might rein in the budget, with reducing or means testing the baby bonus and increasing tax for those on high incomes respectively coming on top.

The southern Adelaide electorate of Boothby covers coastal suburbs from Brighton south to Marino, extending inland to edge of the coastal plain at Myrtle Bank and the hills at Belair, Eden Hills, Bellevue Heights and Flagstaff Hill. The seat’s Liberal lean is softened by the area around the defunct Tonsley Park Mitsubishi plant, the only part of the electorate with below average incomes and above average ethnic diversity. The redistribution has shaved the Liberal margin from 0.8% to 0.3% by adding about 10,000 in Aberfolye Park from Mayo in the south, and removing 4000 voters at Myrtlebank to Sturt and 1500 at Edwardstown to Hindmarsh.

Boothby was created when South Australia was first divided into electorates in 1903, at which time it was landlocked and extended north into the eastern suburbs. Its coastal areas were acquired when the neighbouring electorate of Hawker was abolished in 1993. Labor held the seat for the first eight years of its existence, and remained competitive until the Menzies government was elected in 1949. This began a long-term trend to the Liberals which peaked in the 1970s, when margins were consistently in double digits. Former Premier and Liberal Movement figurehead Steele Hall held the seat from 1981 until he was succeeded by Andrew Southcott in 1996.

A positive swing in the difficult 2004 election had Labor hopeful of going one better in 2007, inspiring Right powerbrokers to recruit what they imagined to be a star candidate in Nicole Cornes, a minor Adelaide celebrity and wife of local football legend Graham Cornes. However, Cornes only managed a 2.4% swing against a statewide result of 6.8% after a series of disastrous campaign performances. Labor again had high hopes at the 2010 election, seeing in the seat a potential gain to balance anticipated losses in Queensland and New South Wales. However, while the Labor swing of 2.2% outperformed a statewide result of 0.8%, perhaps reflecting a suppressed vote in 2007, it fell 0.8% short of what was required.

Andrew Southcott came to the seat at the age of 26 after winning preselection at the expense of fellow moderate Robert Hill, the faction’s leading light in the Senate. Tony Wright of the Sydney Morning Herald wrote that the Right had built up strength in local branches with a view to unseating its hated rival Steele Hall, and when denied by his retirement turned its guns on Hill as a “surrogate”. Unlike Hill, who went on to become government leader in the Senate, Southcott has led an unremarkable parliamentary career, finally winning promotion after the 2007 election defeat to the Shadow Minister for Employment Participation, Apprenticeships and Training. However, he was demoted to parliamentary secretary when Tony Abbott became leader in December 2009, after backing Malcolm Turnbull in the leadership vote.

Southcott’s preselection for the coming election was challenged by former state party president Chris Moriarty, following disquiet in the party over his fundraising record. However, Moriarty was only able to manage 35 votes in the February 2012 party ballot against 195 for Southcott, support for his challenge reportedly evaporating as the Kevin Rudd leadership challenge came to a head. Southcott will again face his Labor opponent from 2010, Annabel Digance, a former nurse and SA Water Board member factionally aligned with the Right.

## 2,169 thoughts on “Seat of the week: Boothby”

1. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard is a doing a wonderful job representing Australia at international forums. 🙂

2. The Finnigans

USA is catching the Greek’s Disease, the rich doesnt want to pay their share of taxes. They are more fucked than ever

3. guytaur

@nytimes: Breaking News: David H. Petraeus Resigns as Director of Central Intelligence Agency
http://t.co/MXkR8iy5

4. Thumper

I am one happy voter who has been hived off the electorate of Mayo,and added to Boothby. I helped on the Mary Brewerton campaign against Downer in the heady days of 2007 but was less enthusiatic in 2010 (which I now regret)
Now with the federal political scene as it is!, I fully intend to be pounding the pavements for Annabel Digence hoping that we can help bring in one more seat for Julia Gillard and the Labor party

5. Captain Obvious

Morning thought-bubble:

1) A two-party system can work fine.

I sincerely hope that conservative politicians and their supporters in Australia will take note of what just happened to their ideological brethren in the USA.

I’m not referring to respectable conservatives who base their policies and public statements on reality.

I’m talking about the head-in-sand denialists, the women-haters, the religious freaks and wingnuts…the ones who insist our public debt is crippling when we are one of the last economies left in the entire world with a AAA credit rating…the ones who insist we have “lost control” of our borders when our immigration woes aren’t even a pimple on the bum of what the USA, UK or Italy routinely deal with…the ones who will die in a ditch to ensure that Gina and Clive and Twiggy can rake in the entire mining boom without any public benefit resulting…they need a dose of reality.

…the reason that conservative fantasists lost isn’t because the US electorate rejected their fantasies (a lot of the US electorate believe the plum-crazy shit that head-in-sand conservatives say)…it’s because they were trying to win a Presidency and a whole lot of Senate and House races based on those fantasies.

A two-party or multi-party system, is a fine thing…but can we please get back to a one-reality system?

For the sake of good government, we desperately need the head-in-sand conservative fantasists, paranoiacs and doom-sayers to STFU.

6. guytaur

Malala the 14 year old girl shot in Pakistan for wanting an education is being shown on BBC reading cards from well wishers.

morning bludgers
PTMD 2
… and she is widely respected and admired internationally…

8. The Finnigans

Anders Behring Breivik,complained his human rights have been abused – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20270325#TWEET348342 … – bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha

9. The Finnigans

Fiscal Cliff Fiscal Cliff Fiscal Cliff Fiscal Cliff Fiscal Cliff Fiscal Cliff Fiscal Cliff – Con Con Con Con Con Con Con Con Con Con

10. guytaur

@PoliticalTicker: Washington voters pass same-sex marriage, CNN projects – http://t.co/5plm8qCT

11. guytaur

Finns

Yes, but a con President Obama seems to be using to get the Repugs to accept the need for tax increases. So for once a con I do not mind if it works.

12. The Finnigans

G, by con, i meanz the right wing #MSM trying to use that to scare people & thump Obama.

The best thing Obama can do is to let Bush Tax Cut to quietly expire on 1 Jan 2013. And then turn to the Repugs: “Are you talkin’ to me”

13. Tom Hawkins

I always enjoy a behind the scenes look at politics. This is a beauty. Thank goodness for the NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/us/politics/obama-campaign-clawed-back-after-a-dismal-debate.html

14. guytaur

Finns

Yes I get what you meant. I like that the fear generated is now backfiring on the Repugs as Obama uses that fear to pressure the Repugs into tax increases. If he succeeds he breaks Grover Norquists hold of no new taxes pledge on the Repugs.

15. Bushfire Bill

Oh… OK… that’s alright, then…

[THE nation’s most powerful Catholic, George Pell, has revealed he is deeply ashamed at the child sex abuse committed within the church, but denied there was sufficient evidence to justify a royal commission into these assaults.

16. guytaur

@mashable: Nate Silver Gets All Kinds of NSFW [VIDEO] http://t.co/d07xH2j6

17. OzPol Tragic

Good morning, Bludgers. Good morning, Dawn Patrol.

A couple of interesting articles @ HuffPost:

From GOP’s Whackjob Conspiracy Theorists Central … ffs, “What part of The fault … is in ourselves … that we are underlings do you Repugs not understand?” Conservatives Struggle To Explain How Mitt Romney Lost 2012 Presidential Election Unbelievable!

And, (bless all odd-ball squints :lol:) a fascinating, good-humoured, Scientific American article on (drum roll) Belly Button Bacteria: Biologists Seek Reason For Navel Flora Differences As informative as it is LOL!

18. Tom Hawkins

[Victim apologises to former MP for abuse claims]

How easy it is to make a false accusation and the damage it can bring

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-10/victim-apologises-to-former-mp-for-abuse-claims/4364622

19. guytaur

Tom

Yes. Why due process is so important. As in having a RC investigate.

20. Tom Hawkins

[Ever since a BBC current affairs program broadcast allegations by a former resident at the care home, speculation has been rife online as to the identity of the perpetrator … Steve Meesham, who made the allegations, says after seeing a photo of Lord McAlpine, he realises he had made a mistake and offered his apologies to him and his family.]

How can the BBC bring the story to a head (days, even weeks of investigation) when the matter could have been dismissed simply by showing the victim a photograph of the alleged perpetrator?

21. Greensborough Growler

Thumper,

Welcome aboard the Gillard express.

22. guytaur

Tom

A great example of failings of trial by media.

23. Greensborough Growler

Can any of the RC advocates articulate a case for such an inquiry and what they honestly expect to achieve. Pay particular attention to monumental successes like the AWB and the various ICAC like commissions which have produced “bugger all” over many, many years.

Is it really just a flight of whimsy by those who believe that catching hold of the latest passing fad is actually providing a long term solution?

24. guytaur

GG

Your claims of failures is BS. Legal process is legal process. Not trial by media. The longer there is no RC the longer the stench over the Catholic Church will linger.

The questions are already out there. Failing a RC investigation it will be trial by media. Lets avoid trial by media and the inevitable witch hunt that entails.

25. rummel

GG

The truth

26. guytaur

@ABCNews24 is asking for opinions on should a Royal Commission be called into alleged child sex abuse in Catholic Church.

27. lizzie

Tom Hawkins

In that piece in the NYT, a Repub who is rehearsing Romney for the debates “really gets into the role”.

How? By asking his questions in the accent/style of a pretty uneducated southern black American.

Showing the racial based contempt they feel for Obama.

28. Greensborough Growler

Guytaur,

And you think a couple of hundred $mill of lawyers at 10 paces will do that? Everyone will lawyer up to protect the wicked and innocent from revelations of what is already known. Sensational revelations of what is already known will be revealed once again, A report will be written where sensational revelations of what is already known will be revealed. It will gain a bit of passing notoriety and then will gather dust for ever more like most of the previous RC reports until some journoalsit reveals what is already known again. 29. guytaur GG Yeah the inquiries in the US and Ireland have been such abysmal failures. Are you worried you will come up for investigation? Why such opposition to a proper legal inquiry? Instead you prefer trial by media where the innocent and good can be falsely accused with bad consequences. See Tom’s example of what happens when it is trial by media with Lord McAlpine. 30. Danny Lewis Tom: that sounds awfully like the prossie who was paid for her “story” on Craig Thomson, only to then see the bloke and admit she might have got it wrong. On the Royal Commission: that so many people connected with the church are insisting it’s not needed tells me how worried they are about what will be found. We need a Royal Commission into why all these people don’t want a Royal Commission 😉 31. guytaur “@CraigEmersonMP: Abbott tells Lisa Wilkinson “we did get taxes down, we did get productivity up.” False. Productivity slumped. Highest taxing govt in history” 32. C@tmomma Good Morning Bludgers Nancy Sinatra Style! 🙂 Thumper, your feets are made for walking, and that’s just what they’ll do… One of these days your feets are going to walk all over the political grave of Dr Andrew Southcott! 😀 33. Greensborough Growler The Leveson RC in to media has made Murdcoh a multi billionaire. 34. guytaur ROFLMAO @ GG The Leveson Inquiry report has not even been handed down yet. It has already helped to reveal that Murdoch Jr is not a fit and proper person to hold a television license. 35. lizzie GG Then Cardinal Pell (and perhaps even the Pope) should look forward to his Church being even richer. 36. C@tmomma Is there some way a Commission of Inquiry can be set up with a panel of learned individuals, a la the Houston Inquiry, with a Judge, a Representative of the Catholic Church who is above reproach, and a Victim’s Representative from Broken Rites, who will do a thorough and thoughtful investigation into Priest/Child Abuse, without fear or favour or fireworks? 37. Tom Hawkins Danny [Tom: that sounds awfully like the prossie who was paid for her “story” on Craig Thomson, only to then see the bloke and admit she might have got it wrong.] The difference between the two stories is that one was prosecuted by ACA (or was it TT?) whilst the UK story was prosecuted by the BBC. What a hammering the BBC’s once impeccable reputation has taken in recent days with this (false?) story and the apparent cover-up for years of the Savile child abuse. 38. Greensborough Growler guytaur, It’s you that is basically advocating trial by media, comrade. Because, that is exactly what a RC will become. A massive circus, all funded by the public for your entertainment. You’ll definately find out what you already know, some airy platitudes will be waved around as certitudes, no one living will be convicted of anything and people will just get on with their lives. 39. castle [The longer there is no RC the longer the stench over the Catholic Church will linger] No, exactly the opposite. The longer the delay in a royal commission that would expose the breadth and depth of the filth in the church the easier it is for the church to deny there is a problem. You only need to look a the reactions from our leaders and the church last time there was a call for a RC during the Hollingsworth/ Howard era. Then the responses were it is only a small proportion we must remember all the good the church has done most of these offences were committed a long time ago most of the perpetrators are now dead things were different back in those days. Every delay into a full and proper investigation is a win for the church. it means more victims have died, usually at their own hands more challenges to the memories of those that are left due to the time elapsed more guilty have died or fled more evidence has been “lost” But don’t look for a Royal Commission being called. The Catholic Church is the most powerful and influential organisation in Australia, it is largest employer and accounts for over 10% of GDP at around$130 billion a year.

No-one takes it on, you can take on the media companies, the mining companies but not the church.

many speak of the religous craziness of the USA, but they have their house in order and act on the separation of church and state.

In the USA they take them on, hit them where it hurts and bankrupt the filth, getting billions in compensation for the victims and proper justice.

here we know the place of the church and our place in the universe like good little souls we are.

40. guytaur

GG

No you are totally wrong. A Royal Commission will prevent Trial by Media. No Royal Commission able to get answers and the media will take over until such a commission is forced. It will not go away.

41. fiona

C@tmomma,

Ah yes, the long long wait … only another 39 steps sleeps

😉

42. Greensborough Growler

momma,

A sectert inquiry with powers of the Inquisition.

The Church got rid of that process hundreds of years ago.

43. OzPol Tragic

<blockquote@mashable: Nate Silver Gets All Kinds of NSFW [VIDEO] http://t.co/d07xH2j6

GLORIOUS!!! Ta, Guytaur. Nate Silver was the US Electoral Cycle 2012 voice of sanity among FoxLot TeaParty crazies and gutless I’m covering my arsk in case … pundits’ weasel words …

Oh, and the ghost of an aged US female professor from a top uni (who’d also served in senior roles in national & international peak bodies) who, c1988-9, almost bored a planning conf/ workshop to death with endless lectures on demographics. Demographics, she insisted, were successful planning’s Alpha and Omega – and she extended that to rigorous mapping & constant updating of every part of and factor in the environment of the organisation for which we were planning. Endlessly, for 4 long days.

On the long road home (from Canberra) her often rambling & repetitive lectures shook themselves into sense, then conversion & dogma, then into study booklets and accompanying volumes of readings, and students’ research projects.

I can’t recall her name or which fine US uni; but I wouldn’t mind betting she/ those she taught, lurk somewhere in the backgrounds of key members of Obama’s re-election campaign’s planners and strategists. For this old Planning/Strat-management/ TQM/ WBP Tragic, US Election12, as it played out, was a dream ride on a magic carpet!

Hard to believe GOP members, who studied management at top US Unis, didn’t “Do the demographics”!

BTW, can’t recall which Bludger gave me the heads-up on Nate Silver (?BK), but thanks a zillion for it and to all Bludgers for all the links, esp to Blogs etc I wouldn’t have otherwise found.

44. Brian Mc

As the counting of votes in Washington State staggers on (due to the delay in receipt of postal votes postmarked up to and including Election Day) the popular vote majority for Barrack Obama passes the 3 million mark.

This cuts the ground from under the conservative commentators (on Fox and even some on CNN) who on election night were rabbiting on about how, even though the socialist Obama had a majority of Electoral College votes he had NO mandate because he had lost/”only scraped in” the popular vote. Didn’t these highly-paid commentators realise that the Pacific Coast votes had to be counted and folded into the total and that the Pacific Coast States sort of vote Democratic (or Liberal or Socialist, or other pejorative word)?

45. Tom Hawkins

[Is there some way a Commission of Inquiry can be set up with a panel of learned individuals, a la the Houston Inquiry, with a Judge, a Representative of the Catholic Church who is above reproach …]

The church rep I’d like to see on such a panel is Father Bob Maguire. Pell is the only other church rep with a national profile but Pell is thoroughly tainted. Father Bob was forced to retire (effectively the church gave him the flick despite him being 7 years younger than the current Pope) which would cancel him out as a church rep.

46. Greensborough Growler

Guytaur,

I bet Rupert can hardly wait for the final Leveson Report to come out.

All that free publicity, he’s shifted his focus further from dying newspapers and now he’s making more squillions.

47. Danny Lewis

GG: How on earth can you know that no-one living will be convicted of anything?

Priests are charged with sex offences all the time. STILL. Even though this matter has been in the public spotlight for years. They are still doing it. They are still getting caught. And, sometimes (depending on the circumstances) the church is still trying to cover it up.

You may be right in that some of the very old cases will never be tried. But what will happen is that a fecking great big spotlight will be shone on the church LEADERSHIP and on their manifest failure in their duty of pastoral care.

Just that – the public acknowledgement that people’s voices were ignored, that the fault lay with the church and not the victims – will be enough to make many, many people sleep better at night.

In fact, dealing with this thoroughly and openly is actually the ONLY way many people will be able to “just get on with their lives”.

48. guytaur

GG

Nope he is not. There are now Tories supporting an Independent Press Regulator. The last thing Murdoch wants.
Murdoch is only still in his positions by using his power of his own voting block. Every shareholder he did not control voted for his expulsion.

49. Danny Lewis

And wot Castle said 😉

50. victoria

morning

Ballieu ordered an inquiry here in Victoria which is currently underway. Why cant NSW do the same?

51. Tom Hawkins

[I bet Rupert can hardly wait for the final Leveson Report to come out.

All that free publicity …]

Now you are being silly.

You carry too much religious baggage for you to discuss this sensibly. If you can’t handle the heat get out of the kitchen.

52. Rossmore

Brilliant op Ed on the US election result by Rachell Maddow

53. confessions

Good morning everyone!

Thanks for the link to Mike Carlton, BK. I notice he too was so over ‘battleground states’. I think I referred to it as the most overused term in US elections.

54. Greensborough Growler

Guytaur,

You still have not articulated how or why spending hundreds of $mill on a lawyer’s picnic will achieve anything. You’re the advocate. Motherhood statements, glib one liners about ‘truth” and assorted asinine comments really don’t cut it. BTW, here’s Hockey and Shorten making sense on this issue. 55. Greensborough Growler 56. guytaur GG Have a look at the company you are keeping. Not savoury company. Not even human rights lawyers on your side. This because you are arguing against a legal process to investigate and find out truth. You call this a lawyers picnic. Well the truth is the lawyers would not have a picnic if their was no reason to investigate with the powers a Royal Commission provides. In other words if there was no cover up (quote of news24) there would be no need to compel evidence. Even at this stage if the Church truly cooperated with police investigations by allowing access to information no Royal Commission would be needed. In that respect the ball is in the Church’s court. 57. castle [In fact, dealing with this thoroughly and openly] Openly is a good start. I just do not understand how the church gets away with its confidentiality payments and agreements. In effect ok here is$50,000 and a confidentiality agreement for you to sign and never talk of again to anyone, sign it or you look to years of delay and court facing our barristers and mega millions we can bring to bear.

Any other person or entity that had forced sex with minors then gave them money to keep quite would face many charges.

How does the church get away with this?????

58. guytaur

@ShoebridgeMLC: POLL: Widening sex abuse inquiry # http://t.co/JZKrwZcZ

59. fiona

Confessions,

Good morning. Now, I have a bone to pick with you, ma’am.

Would you please stop sending such bloody cold weather our way? Pretty please?

60. confessions

fiona:

😆

We’ve had a couple of hot days, but rain today.

Sorry!

61. confessions

I should add that I personally prefer the milder conditions. AFter yesterday’s baking heat, today is a nice change.

62. guytaur

“@chrisrockozfan: Disappointed in General Petraeus. You would hope that the head of the CIA could have an affair without getting caught. #CIA”

63. victoria

I am of the view that children today are very well informed from an early age. Unfortunately, this was not the case in years gone by. There was silence, shame and secrets. That is no longer the case. A broadranging inquiry is needed to expose any abuse that took place in religious institutions, schools, sporting clubs etc. I am in no doubt that predators deliberately find their way into positions where they can access their prey. As HSO said, it has nothing to do with a person’s access to adult relationships, but everything to do with exercising their power and want over young vulnerable children. The church has no doubt protected these perpetrators, but the same thing has occurred in families, schools, scout clubs, sporting clubs, orphanages, workshops for the disabled, and the list goes on.

64. fiona

Confessions,

What we are having just now isn’t mild: it’s 12C, and I’m rugged up in my warmest winter woollies. Yes, we have had some pleasant weather – in bits – over the last few weeks, but winter has been painfully long this year.

65. Greensborough Growler

Guytaur,

I’ll go with Shorten and Hockey on this one comrade.

I’m doing alright for someone who apparently believes Jews should be delivered to the ovens, that blacks should be murdered and that inter racial marriage should be a crime. This is despite the fact that I’ve never said or written any such thing.

BTW, I’m still waiting for your sensible argument about why there should be a RC.

66. victoria

fiona

Tomorrow is 26 in Melbourne

67. philmour
68. guytaur

victoria

Yes. It is an evil so bad many want to deny it exists. Thus even more need for the spotlight to be shone on it.

69. fiona

Victoria,

And I’m looking forward to it – especially because the washing that’s been out since yesterday morning (now exceptionally well-rinsed) might get dry 🙂

70. guytaur

GG

I have given you sensible argument. That you refuse to accept it is entirely your problem.

71. victoria

GG

It appears that the police investigating these crimes has been stymied, by his superiors. That stinks. Something does need to be done. I too am thinking that a RC is only going to be a lawyers picnic, but it is necessary to get to the bottom of the crimes and the coverups, so this cannot occur ever again.

72. lizzie

victoria

Snap. I was going to write something similar about “closed communities” of any kind.

73. Greensborough Growler

Guytaur,

You’ve given nothing but hollow cliches, motherhood statements and abuse. About all we can expect from the likes of you, I suppose.

74. guytaur

GG

I see you are good at projecting. You sure Labor is the party you want to belong to. Projection is a characteristic of the LNP.

75. confessions

[The church has no doubt protected these perpetrators, but the same thing has occurred in families, schools, scout clubs, sporting clubs, orphanages, workshops for the disabled]

76. lizzie

GG

Shorten and Hockey are not quite as much on your side as you think. For one thing, their remarks were made before last night’s interview with the ex priest, who was very frank about the activities in his seminary and the reaction of his superiors when he reported to them.

IMHO it is not so much the abuse which is the scandal, it is the way the Catholic Church represses or moves around those they know are the abusers.

77. lizzie

For represses, substitute “defends with parish donations”.

78. confessions

fiona:

12 degrees does seem a tad too cold, even for me!

When I lived in Canberra there was an unwritten rule that you never planted your tomatoes until after Melbourne Cup, owing to frequent, late frosts.

79. guytaur

@ABCNews24: Want to have your say next hour? Tell us if you think a Royal Commission into church sex abuse is needed & why #ABCNews24

80. C@tmomma

fiona,
…only 39 sleeps

He doesn’t seem too worried, actually. I’m the one who’s worried! I just hope that the markers can read his writing. He’s been on a computer keyboard since Pre School! 😀

81. victoria

lizzie

Our society today is very different. Technology has made it so. Instant messages and information are exchanged momentarily. Young people are no longer naive. Predators got away with their evil because society itself was closed, not just the communities within it.
To give you an example, my children use the term “pedo” to describe people they view as a little off to them. In other words, they have their radar on at all times. Children did not have this radar on in years gone by because they were never alerted to it. I know this because I seemed to be on my own with that thinking when I was young. Thanks to my mum being so open with us about the dangers of these types of people.
She would never have allowed any of us to be alone with a priest or any male for that matter, as children. Mind you, she never had any bad experiences herself, but her own mother informed her of these dangers as a child as well.

82. guytaur

“@ggreenwald: On MSNBC, Richard Engel just named Petraues’ biographer, Paula Broadwell, as the likely person with whom Petraeus had the affair”

MSNBC doing well lately

83. fiona

Confessions,

The same rule applied in Melbourne, though these days the Caulfield Cup is the preferred date. At any rate, my four tomato plants are flourishing, and starting to flower.

(Note to self: feed them – and plant beans – TODAY.)

84. confessions

[A Georgia congressman who attacked the theory of evolution found himself with an unlikely opponent in Tuesday’s US election, when 4,000 voters in one county cast write-in ballots for the 19th century father of evolution, British naturalist Charles Darwin.

In a September 27 speech, Paul Broun, a physician and member of the US House of Representatives Science, Space and Technology Committee, called evolution and the Big Bang Theory, “lies straight from the pit of hell”.]

Clearly another deep thinking Republican. Great strategy though from the lecturer, and I love his calling Broun an anti-science fundamentalist.

85. lizzie

victoria

I was never warned about “these people” – would never have known they existed. BUT, like you, I was never alone with a male (even my father). And there is an instinct in children to avoid people who are odd/dangerous. The problem arises when those people have power over a child, especially where the parents are not protective enough.

I have noticed that there is no longer thought to be the necessity for a nurse to be present when a male doctor examines a woman. Puts me on my guard a bit.

86. Greensborough Growler

vic,

Completely agree.

However, we as usual, have plenty of assertions of cover ups, but no evidence. The accusations always get the attention. The refutations are seldom given the same emphasis.

Clearly, there are many that hate the Chuch and will latch on to any issue to go the biff. That’s their perogative. However, their never ending abuse directed against the church over extended time really undermines their proclamations of being even handed or non partisan.

However, evidence, not hearsay must underpin any inquiry. I’m also a great believer in the “innocent until proven guilty” ethos (which clearly makes me a reactionary).

At this stage enough inquiries are under way. Let’s see what emerges from them.

As for the policeman who went on TV the other night; my understanding is his job is to collect information and evidence. His job is not to make judgements on the motives of others or proclaim people guilty of non existant crimes like “defending their rights’. If after twenty years of non results perhaps he needs to find another job or maybe the alleged perpetrators are innocent of whatever he was trying to pin on them.

87. gigi

victoria @ 66

“but the same thing has occurred in families,”

It may be that some men get married to hide their obsessions with little boys. In such cases the end result would be that the entire family would be affected – the children and the mothers. The men would continue to exercise their horrible acts on their children, the wife usually knowing what’s happening but often saying nothing.

88. Greensborough Growler

lizzie,

Neither Hockey nor Shorten is advocating a RC. Which is my point!

89. guytaur

@MalcolmFraser12: Hockey, Shorten join forces in royal commission snub. Gutless, don’t want to offend various people. http://t.co/qc7U81Wb

90. WeWantPaul

I’m not quite following, the drive here is for a commonwealth royal commission into the application and enforcement of State laws?

Also i saw a repeat here yesterday of the separation of church and state, an American doctrine that doesn’t apply here, simply because State and Church are not separate from the Queen down. My understanding was the provision in the Commonwealth constitution was to stop the Commonwealth interfering in the State level church – state relationships.

91. lizzie

GG
[If after twenty years of non results perhaps he needs to find another job or maybe the alleged perpetrators are innocent of whatever he was trying to pin on them.]

Typical shoot the messenger statement.

Have to go shopping. Sorry I can’t stay for the debate.

92. WeWantPaul

[Typical shoot the messenger statement.]

That it might well be, but it might also be that rather than a whole of police conspiracy, he is the one that is a little off. There are even some theories that suggest you go for the obvious simple solution before putting your tinfoil hat on and developing the full conspiracy theory. Just saying.

93. victoria

lizzie

Have fun. 🙂

94. WeWantPaul

Also if it is a vast conspiracy, why would the royal commission not fall victim to it?

95. Greensborough Growler

Lizzie,

Clearly, I have no proper understanding of the police role in inquiries.

Perhaps, your greater wisdom can enlighten us all.

96. victoria

It’s been mega, but a new life calls
BY: GEORGE MEGALOGENIS From: The Australian November 10, 2012 12:00AM
Increase Text Size
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Print

[FIRST impressions of power can be amusing.

I was formally introduced to Bob Hawke in the winter of the 17 per cent mortgage rate, 1989. Still new to the parliamentary press gallery, and only three years old as a journalist, I didn’t have too many scoops to my name to warrant prime ministerial attention. But the PM’s press secretary, Barrie Cassidy, said his boss was keen to meet me because I was sitting six games clear on top of the press gallery footy tipping competition.]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/its-been-mega-but-a-new-life-calls/story-e6frg72x-1226513945159

97. Diogenes

GG

[

However, we as usual, have plenty of assertions of cover ups, but no evidence. ]

Pell has admitted there were cover ups.

[The Archbishop of Sydney accepts that children were abused by priests and that the crimes were covered up by other clergy but believes the Catholic church is no worse than other organisations, News Limited reports.]

98. victoria

[WE KNOW how long governments in Victoria will run. Four years from polling day to polling day was an important reform of the Bracks government, providing certainty and an end to the often-paralysing speculation of when a premier’s car would roll up the Government House drive to seek an election. Ted Baillieu should be especially grateful.]

99. Greensborough Growler

WWP,

The bright shining light reflecting off the tinfoil hat gathers no hysterial publicity or moss.

100. WeWantPaul

GG I just don’t understand the frothing at the mouth over a royal commission and the abuse and condemnation of anyone who doesn’t agree with the lynch mob immediately.

I’m long used to PB being a place of contempt intolerance and hate directed against people of faith, but this is a new level even for here.

101. Leroy

Coalition floating two things through the AFR today. Nuclear Subs, and the latest reheat of the S&G story.

PUBLISHED: 9 hours 15 MINUTES AGO | UPDATE: 1 hour 47 MINUTES AGO
Christopher Joye

Top Coalition leaders want to open the debate over the purchase of nuclear submarines to replace the navy’s diesel fleet, a huge step up in Australia’s military capability in response to China’s plan to become a major maritime power in the Pacific Ocean.]

What Gillard knew about the ‘slush fund’
PUBLISHED: 9 hours 7 MINUTES AGO | UPDATE: 0 hour 0 MINUTES AGO

Laura Tingle and Mark Skulley
Julia Gillard had reason to be feeling good when federal Parliament rose last week. The polls were continuing to improve for the Prime Minister and the ALP. The release of the Asian Century white paper finally gave a structure to the government’s agenda for the next election. Ms Gillard held the ascendancy in Parliament over Tony Abbott, who was facing his own pressures and demons.

But all was not well. Not only was the government in conflict with its cross benches about the budget, but the controversy over Gillard’s role in a 17-year-old union corruption scandal had been revived.]
Both free articles. I read the second one carefully, it seemed thin on anything new.

102. Greensborough Growler

Diogs,

I doubt Pell was talking about the NSW police which is what the good Inspector was asserting the other night.

103. victoria

wwp

For me personally, i am sick of the catholic bashing on this site. I am getting to the point of no longer wishing to post here.

104. guytaur

GG

Calling for a legal inquiry to get to the bottom of allegations is not the tin foil hat response. Tin foil hat brigade are convinced the allegations are true without evidence. Calling for an inquiry to obtain evidence is in fact very anti tin foil hat behaviour.

I am for a Royal Commission precisely because we need transparency in this area. Remember for justice to be done it must be seen to be done.
It is certainly the case that justice has not been seen to be done here.

105. my say

C@tmomma

[Posted Friday, November 9, 2012 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

my say,
You are exactly the sort of devout Catholic that the Church has relied upon for a very long time to cover for them. If you really love your Church and your Faith and the Holy Trinity you will work hard to have these ]

a note for c tomm

q devout catholic is one that stil goes to mass every sunday, and all the holidays , they whom i know well are rather elderley, my aunt is a methoditst like my father
and also attends her church every sunday.

i dont go to church these days but still try to live my faith my own way,
my thoughts on this is to point out not all people in the church are the same.
you are a new comer here , most of the people that use to be here, and really dont know me.

one little story i was once bullied by a boy at school that was not catholic and ask to produce my rosary beads it was as a big sporting event i think i was about 17,\to his shock and amazment i produced them,
i really had a laugh at the type nonsence,

i am married to a wonderful catholic man
whos parents migrated here, ,\my mother in law is what you would call devout,
they had no where to live and the local priest took them in, no australian protestant offered them shelter.
she was shunned becuace she was dutch and a catholic.
the first house the boarded at in sydney the woman
put a piece of string across the kitchen and told them never to cross that mark
this dutch lady had worked with my father in law inthe dutch resistance movement sending british pilots back to the uk and hiding them the attic, she protected a family of 8 jews, and when she came here no one offered them shelter
so dont preach to me about what jesus said.

o and before i, go i wondered last night if hands would
come through the computer and burn me at the stack
or send me to the tower of london

i hope labor wins the election, but i want be blogging
here any more.
and i know my ears will be burning when you all have your little get together

well so be it.

106. C@tmomma

The attacks from the hard-arsked Right & Faux News, on Rachel Maddow & her sexuality(what that has to do with her analysis, I don’t know), have begun:

Also a faint echo of the PM’s speech having percolated through the consciousness of Americans in this statement in the Comments:

I apologise if what I say is offending some people, but misogyny is misogyny, and the gender of the person making the slur doesn’t change that.

🙂

107. Diogenes

GG

Correct. He wasn’t referring to the latest allegations.

108. Greensborough Growler

WWP,

Yes, must agree. It’s often a case of “off goes the head and on goes the pumpkin” for some of our esteemed posters when religion s discussed.

109. Oakeshott Country

I went to the school which is at the centre of the scandal in Maitland-Newcastle dioscese (I now callit St Peter Pheils). The dioscese is bankrupt, 13 priests have been convicted, my old headmaster was charged but died before getting to court. The age of the priests is slightly younger than the parishioners and both are in the 70s. If there is a Catholoic church in 30 years it will be a small and insignificant thing

I don’t see that a royal commission will tell us anything we don’t already know. In Maitland there was a ring of paedophile priests whose crimes were hidden by the hierarchy. No doubt paedophiles were attracted to the priesthood in Maitland because of this. Their may still be some active paedophiles but the publicity, their age, small numbers and lack of contact with young people limits their ability to be active.

110. Diogenes

GG

I should add that I think there should be a RC but it should be include all faiths, not just Catholic.

111. guytaur

OC

Watch last nights Lateline. Last allegation to surface was 18 months ago.

112. C@tmomma

Gee, Campbell Newman is having such a positive effect on Queensland’s economy and the families that make it up. Not:

http://ht.ly/faGp0

113. Greensborough Growler

Diogs,

Perhaps you could include the Jimmy Saville and Gary Gltter types as well. I’m not sure if bicyle riders should be included because they are pedallists.

What about we investigate everybody. Just to be sure!

114. WeWantPaul

[ Tin foil hat brigade are convinced the allegations are true without evidence. Calling for an inquiry to obtain evidence is in fact very anti tin foil hat behaviour. ]

There needs to be a reason why normal law enforcement is insufficient. We don’t have a royal commission into drug importation every day, we have one (if we ever have) when there is something substantial and important that has been shown to be beyond normal justice. Perverting the course of justice is a very serious crime, and members of the clergy aren’t immune from it.

Or is it you just want the normal laws of evidence and presumptions of innocence removed and the bonfires lit so we can have a good old fashioned burning at the stake. There would be some irony in that course of action of course.

115. confessions

victoria:

Thanks for the link to Mega’s last OO column, he makes some very astute observations:

[Rudd was also a great leader after Lehman Brothers collapsed in 2008, just as Howard had been in the wake of Port Arthur in 1996 and the Bali bombings in 2002. But on most days Rudd was PM, he went looking for new ways to diminish the office through over-exposure.]

But I feel his view of the Hawke-Keating era is somewhat tinted by rose-coloured glasses.

116. guytaur

Meredith Bergman coming up soon News 24 (regular sparring segment)

117. my say

ps, how could i possible cover up stuff i know nothing about or ever encounted.

118. my say

ps, how could i possible cover up stuff i know nothing about or ever encounted.

119. guytaur

wewantpaul

There is good reason. We have whistleblowers coming out telling of cover ups by the church hiding and destroying information needed for convictions on a criminal offence. These are only allegations, but do need robust due process of law to investigate. In the circumstances that is a Royal Commission.

120. guytaur

my say

The circle of evil is not big. The evidence has been hidden from the vastly good majority.
Its just like the police force is made up of vastly good people. Yet corruption can enter and undo the work of the good.

121. Diogenes

GG

As a bare minimum, they should enact uniform mandatory reporting laws across Australia in the case of the clergy (just like we have for doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers etc in SA).

The Church cannot investigate serious criminal allegations against itself.

122. C@tmomma

So you say Tony Jones went to St Pauls College at Sydney Uni and not St Johns:

I’m sure they weren’t as brazen when he was there but from little seeds, big trees grow:

123. confessions
124. C@tmomma

😳 Sorry about the double link. Sometimes I preview, sometimes I don’t. 😳

125. WeWantPaul

[But I feel his view of the Hawke-Keating era is somewhat tinted by rose-coloured glasses.]

I agree it was a very different time and Cassidy and friends don’t understand times have changed.

126. Oakeshott Country

Guy
There will no doubt be allegations some time this year but how is a RC going to help?

127. WeWantPaul

[There is good reason. We have whistleblowers coming out telling of cover ups by the church hiding and destroying information needed for convictions on a criminal offence. These are only allegations, but do need robust due process of law to investigate. In the circumstances that is a Royal Commission.]

I disagree, they are allegations of perverting the course of justice that if there is any actual evidence the police should be prosecuting.

128. guytaur

my say

Remember when the Anglican Church was under attack for the same thing a Royal Commission was avoided by co operation of the Church.
It then brought down the then GG.
The same is now happening to the Catholic Church. It is up to those in authority to cooperate with criminal investigations. Failing to do so will bring a Royal Commission at some stage to enforce those authorities to do this.
This is about the concerns for victims and preventing future victims.
Not an attack on the Religion and people of faith. There is a difference.

129. my say

al victoira

the educated that tell us all the time about there degrees in this and that

that make one feel as my life is a failure
my son often says mum you dad have three chidren]that\did so well in hsc they could of all got in to medicine
so the genes came from some where.

like victoria i have had enough yes i dont contribute
high fulooting sttuff like some my life is very grass
rootes .

which i would suggest is the basis of most true labor people

i also understand now what living in northerisland
must of been like no wonder my relies came here/

130. Socrates

Morning all. Two comments before I’m off to do the shopping.

First I would support the need for a RC into the catholic church. It was precisely my experiences of the hierarchy in it in my twenties that caused me to become an atheist. There are a lot of sweet people at the grass roots level, but some virtual sociopaths at the top. Elaborate logics about saving souls allow them to ignore their consciences while covering up serious crime. Hiding paedophiles has been official policy since at least the early 80s. It really is a criminal conspiracy. I can’t comment on the other churches. Collusion with catholic cops and lawyers is part of it.

131. guytaur

OC

The problem seems to be systemic with the Catholic Church. Ours is not the only country this has happened with. There is enough evidence of people coming out to making these allegations to warrant a Royal Commission. The Premier has already started an inquiry into the police aspect of this. However the whistleblower Mr Fox was clear the cover up was happening within the Church and denying investigators information needed as evidence for a criminal case. Destroying that evidence. An inquiry into police is not sufficient.

132. WeWantPaul

[ The Premier has already started an inquiry into the police aspect of this]

Shouldn’t you polish your tinfoil hats until the findings of that come down.

133. Oakeshott Country

One of the lawyers can confirm this but my understanding of evidence at a royal commission cf to court is.
A. You are compelled to appear
B. you can not take the 5th – you must answer even if you incriminate yourself
C. Unless you are declared an uncooperative witness evidence given in the RC can’t be used against you.

It is an enquiry rather than a court and would be anice little way for offenders to come clean and be forgiven. I would much prefer for the police to do their job and to continue to gaol the buggers.

134. my say

i would ask people who make these assumption

how do you know

no like most of us people only assume

enjoy your huberis or what ever the high faluting word is as my irish grandmother would of said

135. OzPol Tragic

[Is there some way a Commission of Inquiry can be set up with a panel of learned individuals, a la the Houston Inquiry, with a Judge, a Representative of the Catholic Church who is above reproach, and a Victim’s Representative from Broken Rites, who will do a thorough and thoughtful investigation into Priest/Child Abuse, without fear or favour or fireworks?]

NO! Definitly NOT!

Any effective Commission, esp the Royal Commission it should be, MUST be completely independent. No Commission/ Inquiry which involves Stakeholders (in this case the Catholic Church & the victims of its predatory pedophiles) can possibly be completely independent.

In addition, an effective Commission must be totally quarantined from outside influence, esp any influence, inc intimidation, Stakeholders and their supporters might exert.

To understand why these provisions (especially the latter) must be met, consider 3 high-profile landmark RCs about which most Bludgers know: UK’s Leveson; Qld’s Fitzgerald; the Commonwealth’s Painters & Dockers now more commonly known as Bottom of the Harbour.

In not one of those cases was the named Inquiry/ RC the first, or the second, or even the third into the problems they uncovered. They were, however, the first which were not only completely independent, but quarantined from stakeholder influence.

1. Leveson. In the UK, Murdoch first ran into the sort of trouble which should have shut him down, not recently but in the 80s. And in the early 1990s. And again in the late 1990s over hacking O company’s smart cards/ chips. And again in the early 2000s. More seriously when Princes William’s & Harry’s phones were hacked: which spun off a more “thorough” inquiry and a Parliamentary Select Committee inquiry (soon shut down). Only when the scandalously compromised Report of that “thorough” inquiry, was handed down (2009) the phone hacking scandal blew out very publicly, did NewsIntel’s hacking victims, police victims, MP’s who had been intimidated by Murdoch’s agents etc come forward, all fueling demands for a more thorough Inquiry that Murdoch’s agents couldn’t manipulate.

2 Qld’s Fitzgerald was by no means the first into police & government corruption. Inquiries actually started in the 1960s. Qld had already held at least one on National Hotel prostitution & police corruption, one into Whisky a GoGo fire, and several others. It would, however, take what (considering the past’s multiple successful legal actions against whistle-blowers and journos) were very courageous steps: Phil Dickie’s damning reports in the CM; Chris Masters devastating Moonlight State, and Joh BP’s being well out of the state (?US) & unable to intervene, for Acting premier Bill Gunn to set up the Inquiry.

3. Costigan (Painters & Dockers) As well as being but the latest inquiry into union activities, or even into tax evasion, or into crime into relation to each, Fraser’s Costigan Commission (Painters’ & Dockers’ Union) would become a dire warning of the truth of the adage Never call a Royal Commission unless you definitely know what the outcome will be.

Costigan’s investigations would uncover:

[crimes of Union members … “taxation fraud, social security fraud, ghosting, compensation fraud, theft on a grand scale, extortion, the handling of massive importations of drugs, the shipments of armaments, all manner of violence and murder.” Despite the union’s members being “careless of their reputation, glorying in its infamy” that very reputation attracted “employment by wealthy people outside their ranks who stoop to use their criminal prowess to achieve their own questionable ends.”]

Those wealthy people outside their ranks would turn Costigan RC’s spotlight on very senior Coalition members & backers; the Fraser Government’s handling of taxation – legislation as well as implementation, supervision and policing – and on the performance of Fraser’s own innovation, the Australian Federal Police.

The moral of the above examples (only a small selection of best-known one)?

The current Australian scandal – especially as it’s but a “local” example of what has proved to be a global scandal in any countries with RC institutions: the US and Irish scandals have been horrific & sickening (& involved long-term and pervasive intimidation of victims, whistle-blowers, victim support groups & government members); the German is said to have shocked the Pope (though many of the crimes took part during his “watch”) – demands a Royal Commission: a completely independent commission which is well and truly quarantined from any possibility of Stakeholder or other outsider influence, intrusion, esp intimidation (which have presented such major problems with so many earlier inquiries in so many countries.

136. guytaur

WeWantPaul

Good try. Guess what? Calling for a Royal Commission to obtain evidence is not tinfoil hat behaviour. Tin foil hat behaviour is ignoring evidence obtained. e.g. the moon landing. It happened it was not a hollywood fake. Evidence is solid.
Denial of constant claims of abuse and whistle blowers of cover up within any organisation is tin foil hat behaviour.
Lets have a proper legal conducted inquiry into the evidence to find out the truth.
Its the very antithesis of tin foil hat behaviour to call for evidence to base conclusions on.

137. Socrates

Second comment applies to the US election result:
[Donald Trump posted a message on Twitter saying: ”Congrats to @KarlRove on blowing \$400 million this cycle. Every race @CrossroadsGPS ran ads in, the Republicans lost. What a waste of money.”
The election day results showed Mr Rove’s strategy of bringing in huge donations from a few wealthy benefactors and spending that money almost completely on television advertising failed.]
http://www.smh.com.au/world/republican-anger-over-rove-waste-of-money-20121109-293dp.html#ixzz2BltoU7ds

Putting aside the satisfaction psephological types feel, and the schadenfreude induced by the republican implosion, I think the US election is a watershed moment for the value of TV advertising. It’s influence is waning. Romney and Rove spent a bomb on tv, and got back nothing. Obamas campaign was still huge and expensive, but more focused and made much better use of social media. Not a focus group in sight either. It was all about gathering data and responding directly via new media. This lesson surely applies in Australia. Time to talk to Jim Messina.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/victory-for-technology-20121109-293c5.html

Off to do the shopping. Have a nice day. It is beautiful outside here in Adelaide. Don’t miss it.

138. WeWantPaul

[Calling for a Royal Commission to obtain evidence is not tinfoil hat behaviour. Tin foil hat behaviour is ignoring evidence obtained. e.g. the moon landing. It happened it was not a hollywood fake. Evidence is solid.]

I disagree completely. So essentially you want a RC because the normal law enforcement can’t obtain sufficient evidence, so lets suspend normal rules and demand people incriminate themselves, and if they don’t well then lets just jail them because we don’t like them.

That is the tinfoil stuff.

139. Greensborough Growler

Diogs,

We are a Federation and the chances of uniform State Laws on anything is zero.

However, Im of the understanding that the Church has to comply with all the same laws re dealing with children as other bodies. perhaps you know different?

As WWP mentioned, the most serious aspect of the current assertions is the “perversion of justice”. I agree that if this can be proven, then the perpetrators should be punished.

However, this can be handled under current processes and does not require an expensive white elephant called a RC.

140. guytaur

WeWantPaul

Ah so you are a tin foil hat wearer not accepting the fact that mankind landed on the moon.
No wonder you do not accept there is enough smoke to justify a RC to see if there really is a fire.

141. guytaur

GG

No not true. For decades the usual processes have not been sufficient to uncover if the claims of “perversion of justice” are true.
A RC will clear it up once and for all one way or the other.

142. Greensborough Growler

guytaur,

A typically immature comment.

Absolutely, pathetic.

143. guytaur

GG

A typical immature response from you. Insult the messenger rather than look at the point.
This because you know you are defending the indefensible.

144. Diogenes

GG

[However, Im of the understanding that the Church has to comply with all the same laws re dealing with children as other bodies. perhaps you know different?]

The problem is that the Church doesn’t have to mandatorily report child abuse claims. Bodies like hospitals, schools etc do and I think the legislation should include the Church.

I agree there is a difficulty with getting uniform state laws but it has happened with other areas.

145. guytaur

“@MrDenmore: If there were evidence of systematic cover ups of child abuse in the Islamic church in Australia, would politicians prevaricate?”

146. WeWantPaul

[Ah so you are a tin foil hat wearer not accepting the fact that mankind landed on the moon.
No wonder you do not accept there is enough smoke to justify a RC to see if there really is a fire.]

You do realize making up really stupid untrue claims like I don’t accept man landed on the moon detracts from everything you say. the moon comparison was always a poor / weird metaphor but I left it alone rather than be unnecessarily critical, but I see you were using it as a primary school type gotcha …. *rolls eyes*

147. guytaur

“@denniallen: Abbott is very quiet over Catholic church child sex abuse/yet screams fro roof tops over Thomson/Slipper! Whats wrong with this picture?”

148. Just Me

3488
Andrew
[Why is that only Lisa Wilkinson can interview Abbott properly (saver perhaps one leigh sales, and one kerry interview)? The OM should be ashamed of themselves. Abbott reveals himself to be utterly vacant when pressed on any issue. I cant believe he doesnt even appear to do a little homework and talk in a bit more depth. He has nothing but the slogans]

I am genuinely amazed at how shallow and superficial is Mr A. Is this all he and his political minders can come up with after 3 years?

Really?

I always thought the No Plan B jibe was only half true, that it was a bit of an exaggeration for effect. But it increasingly seems that they actually don’t have anything else except repeating the same mindless, stale, bankrupt slogans.

Of course if this was any other institution, it would have been shut down as criminally corrupt years ago. Or we’d have an intervention.
It’s about the power wielded by the CC in our so called secular society and the abuse of that power. The apologists on this site for, whatever reason simply want to maintain that power and maintain the depraved status quo, sickening as it is.

And guess what, the victim support groups all want a RC. But why the hell would they be listened to?

150. guytaur

WeWantPaul

If you are not responding to that part of what I said do not include it in the quote.

So you tell me given the known history of the Catholic Church around the world. Given the known history of the Catholic Church in Australia what existing law enforecement has uncovered and brought into the open systemic Church Authorities cover up of child abuse?
This when we have Whistleblowers in the last two days saying it is ongoing?
What legal process already existing has dealt with this?
I say a Royal Commission will bring this out into the open for once and for all. Not just for the victims, and the public. For the Catholic Church as well.

151. briefly

It is quite obvious that many sexual crimes against children have been concealed and their perpetrators have been systematically protected. This is tainting the reputation of the whole church, including all those who are completely innocent of any wrong-doing.

For the benefit of all those who have been harmed by sexual violence, and so that sexual predators can be dealt with by the courts, there should be an investigation of these matters. If conventional investigative methods are inadequate, then a Royal Commission should be created. This has been done many times where the public interest is strong enough.

The collapse of the insurer, HIH, was the subject of an official inquiry. The frauds carried out during the Burke era in WA were also publicly investigated. Sexual violence carried out by clerics on children is, to say the least, every bit as important as these other matters.

These are not religious matters. They are inherently criminal matters. Considering that loyalty for the Church is very strong, two things are also obvious: many people will resist calls for an inquiry; and yet only a fully-empowered external inquiry will suffice.

Systematic violence against anyone of us – and especially against minors – should not be tolerated. It should be exposed and then eradicated. For the sake of all those who identify as Catholic, for the sake of the standing of its clergy, for the sake of its own reputation, the Church should welcome an official inquiry. Painful as such an inquiry may be, it will open the way to necessary reform and, ultimately, to repaying he loyalty shown the Church by its many faithful.

152. Darn

[victoria
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 10:23 am | Permalink
wwp

For me personally, i am sick of the catholic bashing on this site. I am getting to the point of no longer wishing to post here.]

Victoria, I am not a catholic but I share your frustration. I sometimes think it would be good if William would step in and set up a special thread for these flame wars pursued endlessly by a small number of people to the detriment of the rest of us.

It must be so tempting at times to just walk away, but it would be a real shame if the blog lost a great contributor such as yourself over something like this. A lot of people, including me, would certainly miss your input.

153. fiona

Briefly,

[Systematic violence against anyone of us – and especially against minors – should not be tolerated. It should be exposed and then eradicated.]

A thousand times yes.

154. WeWantPaul

Really? I’m not playing silly word games with you.

The problem with your argument is that you are saying both we have tonnes of evidence and we need a RC to gather evidence. On limb of your argument must fail. I think you are arguing is that there isn’t evidence but there is evidence there might be evidence if we go looking for it. Whose job would looking for evidence normally be? Have the police as a whole, that is the official organization rather than one member on tele said they don’t have the power or ability to gather the information.

Someone posted that the victims support groups want a RC. Well if someone can link their view and why the consider the NSW inquiry insufficient that I would consider relevant.

155. Greensborough Growler

guytaur,

You’ve actually been quite creaative with your evidence. Earlier, you cited a vox pop survey on a website. Believe it or not, this is a Pseph web site and most people here know such polls aren’t worth a pinch of whatever you’re smoking.

You then inveigle the moon landing as somehow further evidence about your intellectual superiority on paedophile issues. Can’t argue with that. Because, I have no idea what your talking about.

And to trump everything, you invent a new meaning for tin foil hat behaviour to prove you’re not as crazy as batshite!

156. Toorak Toff

Labor’s Egerton Lee Batchelor was elected the first member for Boothby in 1903. Batchelor had been the only Labor MHR elected in South Australia in the nation’s first federal election in 1901, when the whole state was one multi-member electorate. Before entering federal politics, Batchelor, a former railway engineer, had established his reputation as Minister of Education and Minister of Agriculture in the Holder government from December 1899 to 15 May 1901. The Labor Party supported his serving in that Liberal government so that the public could see that a Labor man could do the job. In 1903 Batchelor was offered the safe Labor seat of Hindmarsh but in the interests of the party opted for the riskier seat of Boothby, where he polled 55 per cent to defeat former premier and fellow foundation MHR Vaiben Solomon. In 1904, Prime Minister John Christian (Chris) Watson selected Batchelor as Minister for Home Affairs in the world’s first national Labor government. Batchelor was unopposed in Boothby in 1906 and served as Minister for External Affairs in the Fisher Labor government from 1908-10. He was easily re-elected in 1910 but died suddenly in 1911 and Boothby fell to the Liberals in a by-election that year.

Another Labor man, the German-born butcher George Dankel, won Boothby back in 1913 and retained it in 1914 but naturally, given his heritage, did not contest the wartime election of 1917, when the seat fell to the Nationalists.

Labor’s next victory in Boothby was in 1928 when the stone-mason John Lloyd Price – son of Tom Price, the first Labor man to be Premier of South Australia (1905-09) – scraped home by 84 votes. He boosted his margin in 1929 but then got caught up in the big Labor split over how to deal with the Great Depression. He joined the Independent Australia Party and held Boothby in 1931 as a candidate for the anti-Labor Emergency Committee. He was re-elected under the Liberal and Country League banner in 1934 and 1937 and as a United Australia Party member in 1940, dying in office in 1941.

Sir Archibald Price (no relation to J.L.Price) won the 1941 Boothby by-election for the UAP but was turfed out by Labor’s Tom Sheehy in the general election of 1943. Sheehy, a building contractor, trailed on primary votes but got over the line by 1,298 votes largely on the preferences of the popular Communist candidate, Dr Alan Finger. Sheehy slightly improved his winning margin in 1946 – his Liberal opponent, Keith Cameron Wilson, was soon to be ensconced in Sturt – but apparently did not like the subsequent redistribution and gained preselection for the new seat of Kingston, where he lost narrowly in 1949. The Liberals won Boothby in 1949 – with Sir John McLeay, who was succeeded by his son John in 1966 – and have held it ever since.

157. Jackol

Have the police as a whole, that is the official organization rather than one member on tele said they don’t have the power or ability to gather the information.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3608172.htm

In a submission to a state parliamentary inquiry on child abuse within religious organisations, Victoria Police accuses the Church hierarchy of deliberately impeding investigations into clergy suspected of abusing children.

158. Greensborough Growler

Another finely unbalanced anti Catholic Church rant.

159. my say

darn
yes these people willl take over the blog
that is suppose to be political

the so called agrieved will be on this blogg in numbers
and the politcs gone.

the subject should be banned

you cannot blame victoira and i for not wanting to \be here
not becauce we are hiding anything
its just not catholics it people of faith as another poster put it here,
some say dog when they mean god, and such things,

what are they afraid of may be there may be a god i have no idea does the word god actully come from the word goodness. who knows.\

people of faith whether they be christian or muslim,hindu
jews, or what ever
have been critsied
through the ages and frankly in a modern society we are over it.

160. bemused

Darn@155

victoria
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 10:23 am | Permalink
wwp

For me personally, i am sick of the catholic bashing on this site. I am getting to the point of no longer wishing to post here.

Victoria, I am not a catholic but I share your frustration. I sometimes think it would be good if William would step in and set up a special thread for these flame wars pursued endlessly by a small number of people to the detriment of the rest of us.

It must be so tempting at times to just walk away, but it would be a real shame if the blog lost a great contributor such as yourself over something like this. A lot of people, including me, would certainly miss your input.

I actually see very little “Catholic bashing” on this site and note that victoria, to her credit, is among those Catholics who are rightly critical of certain aspects of the Catholic Church. This is not “Catholic bashing”.

I am not at all religious and treat all religions with equal indifference. I can’t even get energised enough to be bothered bashing any of them beyond criticising particular actions or bizarre stances.

But if a crime is committed by supposedly religious people, then it should be treated the same as if anyone else had committed it. And if a religious organisation is foolish enough to engage in cover-ups then it rightly deserves condemnation just as any secular organisation would in a similar situation.

I don’t share their (to me) strange beliefs, but I have met lots of fine people of the Catholic and other faiths and have no wish to ‘bash’ them or their beliefs.

161. my say

but i think

st. jude would not even win an arguemt here

lol.

lol

162. my say

what strange beleifs

so there you see,

we all have strange beleifs about something bemused

my aunt is jehova and i love her to bits

never say any thing to hurt her,
as i said i dont want to mix with these people here any
more my choice

163. bemused

my say@165

what strange beleifs

so there you see,

we all have strange beleifs about something bemused

my aunt is jehova and i love her to bits

never say any thing to hurt her,
as i said i dont want to mix with these people here any
more my choice

Well the JWs are deserving of condemnation for their harmful beliefs on blood transfusions which have caused the death of people including children.
That is the type of religious mumbo-jumbo I will bash as it is dangerous.

164. fiona

Victoria,

I can – obviously – only speak for myself. You, My Say, and many others clearly take great comfort and strength from your faith. That is a truly good thing.

My hostility has never been directed to people like you, never towards those whom Socrates so aptly describes as the sweet people at the grassroots.

My burning anger is directed to the perpetrators, to those complicit in their protection, and to those who carefully looked the other way.

165. guytaur

Calling for a Royal Commission to uncover alleged crimes is not Catholic Bashing.

It is also not tin foil hat behaviour no matter how much GG and others try and label it so.

It is calling for a legally due process to uncover alleged crimes.
That is all. Nothing to do with religion. Certainly not attacking religion.

So those that argue against a Royal Commission do not think that those arguing for are attacking your religion.

GG.
When I post examples of stuff on twitter it is to bust your cozy bubble with examples of others out there in the wide world agreeing.
Just because you do not like those examples denigrating them makes them no less relevant as examples. e.g. I posted a website poll like many here do. It does not mean I expect anyone to take it as a professionally scientific poll. If you do you are a fool.