Facebook Google Menu Linkedin lock Pinterest Search Twitter

Advertisement

Federal Election 2016

Jan 6, 2014

Seat of the week: Barker

A conservative rural seat since the dawn of federation, Barker is under new management after Tony Pasin defeated incumbent Patrick Secker for Liberal preselection ahead of the 2013 election.

User login status :

Share

Blue and red numbers respectively indicate booths with two-party majorities for Liberal and Labor. Click for larger image. Map boundaries courtesy of Ben Raue at The Tally Room.

Barker encompasses South Australia along the Victorian border from Mount Gambier north to the Riverland and its population centres of Renmark, Loxton, Berri and Waikerie, extending westwards to the mouth of the Murray River and the towns of Angaston and Murray Bridge 75 kilometres to the east of Adelaide. It has existed since South Australia was first divided into single-member electorates in 1903, at all times encompassing the state’s south-eastern corner including Mount Gambier, Bordertown and Keith. From there it has generally extended either westwards to the Fleurieu Peninsula and Kangaroo Island or, as at present, northwards to the Riverland. The former territories were lost when Mayo was created with the expansion of parliament in 1984, but recovered from 1993 to 2004 as Mayo was drawn into Adelaide’s outskirts. The Riverland was accommodated by Angas prior to its abolition in 1977, and by Wakefield from 1993 to 2004. Barker’s present dimensions were established when South Australia’s representation was cut from twelve seats to eleven at the 2004 election, causing Barker to take back the Riverland from a radically redrawn Wakefield, while Mayo recovered the Fleurieu Peninsula and Kangaroo Island.

The areas covered by Barker presently and in the past have long been safe for the conservatives, the Riverland last having had Labor representation when Albert Smith held Wakefield for a term after the 1943 landslide. Barker has never been in Labor hands, nor come close to doing so since territory in southern Adelaide was ceded to the new seat of Kingston in 1949. Archie Cameron held the seat for the Country Party from 1934 to 1940, having been effectively granted it after helping facilitate a merger of the state’s conservative forces as the Liberal Country League while serving as the Country Party’s state parliamentary leader. Cameron succeeded Earle Page as federal parliamentary leader in 1939 but was deposed after the election the following year, causing him to quit the party and align himself with the United Australia Party and then the Liberal Party, which has held Barker ever since. He was succeeded in Barker on his retirement in 1956 by Jim Forbes, who was in turn succeeded in 1975 by James Porter.

Porter was defeated for preselection in 1990 by Ian McLachlan, a former high-profile National Farmers Federation president whom some were touting as a future prime minister. He would instead serve only a single term as a cabinet minister, holding the defence portfolio in the first term of the Howard government, before retiring at the 1998 election. McLachlan’s successor was Patrick Secker, who led a generally low-profile parliamentary career before being unseated for preselection before the 2013 election. Despite endorsement from Tony Abbott and moderate factional powerbroker Christopher Pyne, Secker reportedly lost a local ballot to Mount Gambier lawyer Tony Pasin by 164 votes to 78, with a further 40 recorded for Millicent real estate agent and Wattle Range councillor Ben Treloar. Pasin picked up a 3.5% swing at the election and holds the seat with a margin of 16.5%.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

Get a free trial to post comments
More from William Bowe

Advertisement

We recommend

From around the web

Powered by Taboola

3554 comments

3,554 thoughts on “Seat of the week: Barker

  1. DisplayName

    Take the proposition that both major parties are essentially the same (see frequent statements by the Greens or Boerwar @ 3243 :P).

    A not all that engaged or well informed voter who is convinced that the ALP and LNP are the same on some issue may miss the opportunity to rate one party ahead of the other on that issue. The environment, say.

    They don’t like the Greens’ other policies and they vote for the LNP when they might have instead voted ALP had they known the difference between the two parties w.r.t. to the environment.

  2. WeWantPaul

    [The Greens did no hand washing. They voted according to policy they went to an election with.]

    So you went to the 2007 election with a policy of fighting action on climate change and opposing a cap and trade system. yeah of course you did

  3. Asha Leu

    @Boerwar 3243

    [The Greens will never form government.

    This leaves hand-wringing as the only ethical life option]

    Thankfully, we live in a country called Australia, where preferential voting and proportional representation in the Senate means that minor parties can still wield significant influence on policy and legislation.

    Or was the last parliamentary term just some fever dream I had?

  4. DisplayName

    Fran
    [Nobody of left-of-centre inclination is going to support the LNP. That means the ALP can ignore them and pitch at those who might vote LNP]
    They might vote Green. The last minority government – and the distress of people like Centre 😛 = puts the lie to any proposition that voting Green has no effect.

  5. guytaur

    WWP

    The Greens stated their position clearly at the time and when asked about it again by the media subsequently have repeated those reasons.

    The Greens voters know this and you trying to reinvent history does not change what Greens voters know.

    So accept Labor fault where Labor fault is due. However in both cases agree with Labor policy or not the failure to get legislation passed was due to the Liberal party not the Greens.

    Stop accepting LNP unicorns and start blaming them.

  6. WeWantPaul

    [The Greens voters know this and you trying to reinvent history does not change what Greens voters know.

    So accept Labor fault where Labor fault is due. However in both cases agree with Labor policy or not the failure to get legislation passed was due to the Liberal party not the Greens.

    Stop accepting LNP unicorns and start blaming them.]

    They wouldn’t have succeeded so very well without your help.

  7. guytaur

    WWP

    A) My help I am not an mp so what can you mean?

    B) BS its simple mathematics. In both cases Labor expected reasonably for the LNP to vote with them.

  8. Asha Leu

    @WeWantPaul 3256

    Ah, that old chestnut.

    Given past history, I’m rather glad we were spared that half-arsed, expensive and inneffective climate scheme devised by that master of half-arsed policy, Kevin Rudd, our biggest polluters and a party of climate deniers. Noone was happy with that legislation at the time, and the only real support came in the form of “well, its, er, something.”

  9. Bar Bar

    Boerwar – very much liked the post at #2952 but can’t agree with your conclusion that Abbott doesn’t get it.

    It seems that he does, or the Indonesians at least think he does,- otherwise why would Indonesia be quietly accepting five boat turn backs within 3 or 4 weeks of all co-operation by Indonesia supposedly having been withdrawn because of the mobile phone spying scandal?

  10. zoidlord

    @Asha Leu/3257

    I don’t even think that’s true anymore, when the political parties want to spread fear into the voters.

  11. Boerwar

    [Asha Leu

    Or was the last parliamentary term just some fever dream I had?]

    Snap.

    I was actually referring to the last six years of being told that Labor and the Liberals were the same and that the only genuine alternative was the Greens Party.

    I didn’t assert, BTW, that the Greens do not have an influence at the margins.

    In fact, I have repeatedly argued that they do.

    It is quite clear that, by dividing the left of centre vote and spending most of their time attacking the Labor Party, they are having a significant but deleterious effect on the prospect of Australia ever having a centre-left government again.

    This wrecking operation, coupled with the fact that the Greens will never form government in their own right, ensures that the Greens’ core activity will always be ethical hand-wringing, at which, IMHO, the Greens excel.

  12. guytaur

    zoid

    When reforms are made and members have a true voice again on policy not overridden by party hacks from the right who think they know better then I think you will find what is called left now is actually the Labor centre.

    This is the party that had Gough Whitlam and others as Prime Minister who are centre by today’s standards. All those policies a bedrock of keeping Australia the land of the fair go

  13. mexicanbeemer

    I suspect in hindsight the Greens should have supported the Malaysian deal.

    Many of the AS are Muslim and as Malaysia is a Muslim country the AS might have found a better life than they might on Nauru or PNG.

    The Greens have allowed moral idealism to pass up a positive solution of the hundreds sitting in Malaysian camps.

    It is easy to respect the Greens moral idealism but as John Howard rightly pointed out it is better to get 80% of what you want than nothing.

  14. Boerwar

    I see that yet another Labor Government is coming to its senses. This time in Tasmania.

    Too late, Ms Giddings. Your reputation, and that of your Party, has been completely trashed.

    I trust that the Tasmanians enjoy their right of centre government for the next decade or so.

  15. Bugler

    [There should be more religious education in Australian schools, says one of the men tasked with reviewing the national curriculum.

    Former teacher and ex-Liberal Party staffer Kevin Donnelly says Australian education has become too secular, and the federation’s Judeo-Christian heritage should be better reflected in the curriculum.]

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-11/curriculum-critic-wants-more-religion-to-be-taught-in-schools/5195410

    One wonders how they’re going to teach Judeo-Christian values. Will it be Catholic, Protestant, Mormon?

    Though the thing I find most odd of all is that they object to “Australia’s place in Asia”. Does that mean Geography has to be altered as well, and we’re now “Terra Boreas, mare de Glasgow” (google translate, don’t judge me. Latin is littered with rules I don’t care to learn).

  16. Boerwar

    I see that M Hollande is enjoying a 21% approval rating.

  17. WeWantPaul

    [Given past history, I’m rather glad we were spared that half-arsed, expensive and inneffective climate scheme devised by that master of half-arsed policy, Kevin Rudd, ]

    Yeah Abbott’s nothing is going to be so much better. That opposition by the greens still supported by you has to be in the running for the stupidest own goal in Australian Political History, right up there with Labor getting rid of the Upper House in Qld.

  18. Everything

    [zoomster
    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 2:40 pm | PERMALINK
    ModLib

    So if George W Bush had signed an agreement with Egypt, then it would be OK?

    Only if the agreement contained guarantees that the detainees would have had access to healthcare, education and work opportunities, and were not to be mistreated — which sort of would have made the whole thing a little pointless.]

    Gosh, it took an hour for that response? Was there a queue on the phoneline to HQ? 🙂

    [Could this not INCREASE the desire to attempt a boat ride to Australia? What have you got to lose?

    It would help if you demonstrated some knowledge of what you were talking about.

    Being sent to Malaysia carried with it a ‘no returns’ clause – no refugee sent to Malaysia would ever be settled in Australia. On the other hand, Australia was going to take more refugees from Malaysia.]

    Right, so Australia has a ‘no returns’ clause. How lovely. So what actually happens to a Malaysian AS who arrives into Australian custody…you know….. with this ‘no returns clause’ and all? Does Australia settle them? Does Australia send them to Nauru, which you don’t like? Does Australia send them back to Malaysia- if so, with or without the education, health and safety protections?

    Even if they were not settled in Australia they end up back in Malaysia with free health, education and the Australian government to say how naughty the Malaysian police officer who beat the child with the rattan was…….

    Of course the Malaysian solution becomes a push factor for more boats. The AS gain free healthcare and education and protection from going (or Australia relents and resettles them anyway)
    AND
    Those running the trade have an incentive to overrun the 800 arrivals so that it is back to business as usual. So there will be a rush- perhaps a half price deal or something- to get to the 800 (lets face it, this would only be a week or so under the ALP arrival rate).

    [….. had a good chance of ending up in Australia if the ‘people swap’ provisions went ahead.]

    I find it quite interesting how you use this term ‘people swap’ like it was a matter of …..what word could one use here……perhaps ‘trade’?????

    [Now, of course, they’ll spend the rest of their lives in Malaysia, which – according to you – is a bad outcome in itself, without the benefit of increased scrutiny of their conditions – something the UNHCR noted was already improving their lives.]

    I would support Australia meeting its 0.7% development assistance and helping developing countries in the regions to manage these people, rather than trading them around as commodities.

  19. Boerwar

    [mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    I suspect in hindsight the Greens should have supported the Malaysian deal.

    Many of the AS are Muslim and as Malaysia is a Muslim country the AS might have found a better life than they might on Nauru or PNG.

    The Greens have allowed moral idealism to pass up a positive solution of the hundreds sitting in Malaysian camps.

    It is easy to respect the Greens moral idealism but as John Howard rightly pointed out it is better to get 80% of what you want than nothing.]

    This would have destroyed an excellent hand-wringing opportunity and it was, and is, an impossible expectation on the Greens.

  20. mexicanbeemer

    Australia has the right to control who moves to its country just as every other country does.

    If Australia is too grow its population it needs public support for the immigration program and that can only be achieved if the government controls its borders.

    It might sound harsh but i would rather support an immigration program than too see that program trashed.

  21. guytaur

    WWP

    I see you are writing at 3272 as if Labor decisions have no consequences. Past and future. How Abbott wishes.

  22. Boerwar

    The main thing to remember for a Greens when she or he gets up each morning is that Labor and the Liberals are the same.

    This means that a Greens would not have noticed a skerrick of difference between the Rudd/Gillard governments and the Howard/Abbott governments.

    No difference.

  23. WeWantPaul

    [WWP

    I see you are writing at 3272 as if Labor decisions have no consequences. Past and future. How Abbott wishes.]

    I don’t know what you are trying to say so I’ll assume you are making up definitions because you don’t have any argument – again.

  24. Fran Barlow

    DN

    [Take the proposition that both major parties are essentially the same]

    They are with this non-trivial difference: they appeal to substantially different albeit overlapping demographics. That both predisposes how each frames its policies and limits the credibility of each outside their demographic. On the issue of “border security” those outside of the ALP’s key demographic perceived ambivalence on policy, and perceived none amongst the LNP. For those who want to keep non-Westerners to a minimum or who feel existentially threatened by immigration, the LNP was always going to win this issue no matter how brutally the ALP treated IMAs in practice. The ALP was probably lucky the LNP didn’t pretend to care about the welfare of IMAs.

    Now most of these people probably are rusted on LNP, so that lot aren’t moving. But there are enough reactionary bigots and fools — your folk who turn up at polling booths in high vis jackets — on the city fringes to change who gets the seat and the ALP was keen to negate boats. In 2010 Gillard dogwhistled to them saying she could understand their fears over people getting benefits that they couldn’t get. She was putting “queue jumping” into their heads. Her comments on the “carbon tax” were moved by the same concern.

    Unlike the LNP, what the ALP refuses to do is to make any serious effort to shape the political agenda to their demographic. It’s always asking its demographic to eat the shit sandwich, and that demoralises them and arms their enemies against them — who really can point to the similarity in policies and even ethics between the two.

  25. zoidlord

    @Mod Lib/3273

    Considering you seem to be complaining about the Health and Protections of Asylum Seekers of the ALP Policies (Past, Present and Future), you seem to forget the atrocities of those on the Coalition Party Policies (Past, Present and Future), It seems highly hypercritical to be ranting on what Labor has done in regards to Malaysia.

  26. AussieAchmed

    as many places are enduring record making weather events Abbott still hasn’t planted a tree.

    Just the opposite, he has agreed to the destruction of old growth forests.

  27. mexicanbeemer

    I’m not convinced that it is mostly LNP people who will support being tough.

    Many of the harshest views i have seen or heard have come from blue collar ALP voters or surprisingly immigrants.

  28. Bugler

    [I would support Australia meeting its 0.7% development assistance and helping developing countries in the regions to manage these people, rather than trading them around as commodities.]

    Meaning you would rather leave them in a country where human rights abuses are far more likely than in Malaysia?

    (Not that I disagree with the thrust of that point, which unlike you I’m willing to admit). Of course the grand solution to the refugee solution would to stop violence and ensure central Asian and African nations have competent governments with a social infrastructure and where the political philosophy is to work things out rather than see who can kill the other group first. Unlike what Boerwar’s comment on Indonesia, in some of these countries, at least on appearance, the will to pull themselves out of an almighty mess isn’t there.

  29. guytaur

    bw

    For all the Labor whinging when it counted the Greens put Labor in power. Gillard not Abbott.

    As did other sensible and reasonable people.

    Right up to the end there was a working relationship between all parties that got some great legislation passed,

    Now the Greens and Labor have to work on some Senators in the next year or so to defend that legislation already passed.

    This fascination of attacking Greens instead of the LNP does nothing to defend the work of Greg Combet as Minister on CC. The same for myriad other legislation.

    The only reason these attacks occur on the Green is because LNP agitators say how wrong it is to stand up for these things and how Labor should be guilty for doing so.

    I don’t understand why so many Labor people fall for it when we know who voted how and we know the LNP voted against their policy position.

    Abbott is the danger not the hypothetical handwringing of the Greens where they did not have the numbers to count,

  30. mexicanbeemer

    AA

    Interesting you mention old growth forest, if you want to see something a bit disturbing when you next look at Google Earth check out the Victorian Central highlands, from as high as 3.5k you can see big chucks of forest missing.

  31. Fran Barlow

    DN

    Nobody of left-of-centre inclination is going to support the LNP. That means the ALP can ignore them and pitch at those who might vote LNP

    They might vote Green. The last minority government – and the distress of people like Centre = puts the lie to any proposition that voting Green has no effect.

    That doesn’t change a thing. If people vote 1 Green and effectively, preference the ALP, the ALP still wins all those seats (unless the Greens either win absolutely on primaries and/ro preferences). The ALP can still ignore those voters and pitch at the reactionaries.

  32. zoomster

    ModLib

    no, I was watching ‘African Queen’. Oh, and I checked the chooks, and had a swim in the river. Anything else you need to know?

    My understanding was that they go back to Malaysia, as part of the agreement.

    [..the Australian government to say how naughty the Malaysian police officer who beat the child with the rattan was…….]

    I would expect a bit more action than that, just as I would expect more of a reaction if an Australian child was treated in the same way.

    I would point out that caning in Malaysia is a judicial act, not something carried out at random. So there is plenty of time for authorities to intervene before the act.

    Again, your argument mainly seems to consist of rhetoric. I don’t care if you want to talk of ‘rendition’ – although it’s obviously not – or ‘trade’ or ‘people swapping’ – whatever floats your boat. The question to me is whether or not it stood a good chance of preventing deaths by drowning.

    You don’t seem to be able to offer anything better, btw, but appear to be one of those who think that death by drowning is just a part of the rich tapestry of life.

  33. zoomster

    fran

    Labor’s traditional demographic is white, relatively uneducated, working class men.

    I assure you that if we were busily catering for them, refugees would be being treated a lot more harshly than they are at present.

  34. Acerbic Conehead

    I see that Tony Abbott is likening his “stop the boats” campaign to war. He is quoted as saying, “If we were at war, we wouldn’t be giving out information that is of use to the enemy…”

    So sing along with Tones as he is having a shower in his nuclear bomb-proof bunker. Cue: “War” by Edwin Starr.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQHUAJTZqF0

    (War) h’uh
    Yeah!
    (What is it good for?)
    Absolutely (ev’rythin’) uh-huh, uh-huh
    :- )
    Listen to me
    Ooh war, I advise
    Cos it means distraction from my policy snags
    War puts fear in thousands of punters’ eyes
    Keep ‘em in the dark like ignorami
    :- )
    I said, war (h’uh)
    Good God, y’all!
    (What is it good for?)
    Absolutely (ev’rythin’) ‘gin
    Say it, again
    :- )
    (War) whoa (h’uh) whoa-whoa, Lord
    (What is it good for?)
    Absolutely (ev’rythin’)
    Listen to me!
    (War)
    It’s always been a circuit-breaker!
    (War)
    Friend always to the fabricator
    Ooh, war
    :- )
    Is the remedy to the boats
    Sure to win me lots of votes
    War will cause alarm
    Within every generation
    Projection, then distortion
    Who’s a clever guy?
    :- )
    Ooh war, Good God (h’uh) y’all!
    (What is it good for?)
    Absolutely (ev’rythin’)
    Say it, say it, say it
    :- )
    (War)
    Woah-h’uh (h’uh) yeah uh
    (What is it good for?)
    (Absolutely) ev’rythin’
    Listen to me
    (War)
    :- )
    Those towel-heads are border breakers
    (War)
    Pretendin’ to be real asylum seekers
    Ooh, war
    Will shatter all those reffos’ dreams
    Make ‘em collateral damage
    To my xenophobic memes
    :- )
    And if they don’t split and sail away
    I’ll fight my just war daily
    Send over the RAAF
    And give ‘em an atomic wedgie
    :- )
    Oh, war!
    (H’uh) Good God, y’all
    (What is it good for?)
    Absolutely (ev’rythin’)
    Say it, again
    (War)
    Whoa (h’uh) whoa-whoa, Lord
    (What is it good for?)
    A-absolutely (ev’rythin’)
    Listen to me!

  35. Fran Barlow

    BW

    [This means that a Greens would not have noticed a skerrick of difference between the Rudd/Gillard governments and the Howard/Abbott governments.]

    No it doesn’t. There’s no fundamental difference between my Astra and Hubby’s Fiesta. They are both designed for similar purposes, are front-wheel drive cars using internal combustion engines and are even both hatchbacks. I can tell them apart however.

  36. Everything

    [zoomster
    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 3:26 pm | PERMALINK
    ModLib

    no, I was watching ‘African Queen’. Oh, and I checked the chooks, and had a swim in the river. Anything else you need to know?]

    No, that all sounds lovely, glad you are having a good time!

    [My understanding was that they go back to Malaysia, as part of the agreement.]

    ‘Your understanding’, eh? I guess I could bring up your post about wishing I had a ‘better understanding’ of the issues here! Haha 🙂 Hoist ….petard as they say???

    So, what do you say about my point that the Malaysian solution could act as a push factor then?

    a) stay in Malaysia without health, education or protection
    b) travel to Australia and get accepted
    c) travel to Australia and get sent back to your current situation with health, education and protection

    Well?

    And what of my point that those involved in sending the boats would want to saturate the 800 quickly?

    Is that not a ‘push’ factor?

    [..the Australian government to say how naughty the Malaysian police officer who beat the child with the rattan was…….

    I would expect a bit more action than that, just as I would expect more of a reaction if an Australian child was treated in the same way.

    I would point out that caning in Malaysia is a judicial act, not something carried out at random. So there is plenty of time for authorities to intervene before the act.]

    Oh I see. So we have moved from the comment about why on earth I was raising the caning (bring up the ‘racism card’) to now talking about how I apparently don’t seem to understand that the caning is a judicial act!

    LOL 🙂

    [Again, your argument mainly seems to consist of rhetoric. I don’t care if you want to talk of ‘rendition’ – although it’s obviously not – or ‘trade’ or ‘people swapping’ – whatever floats your boat. The question to me is whether or not it stood a good chance of preventing deaths by drowning.]

    Ahem….it was you that used the ‘people swap’ rhetoric, not me…….YIKES projection plus!

    [You don’t seem to be able to offer anything better, btw, but appear to be one of those who think that death by drowning is just a part of the rich tapestry of life.]

    Aha…..another “if you don’t support the ALP you want people to drown” crowd now, eh?

    So tell me this……are you commending Abbott on stopping the boats and thereby, according to your own rubric, preventing drownings at sea?

  37. guytaur

    zoomster

    I know that demographic is what the LNP want people to think the Labor demographic is.

    I disagree. I think that is the LNP base especially the National Party one. If you put farmers into worker category.

    Labor has educted working class as well as a lot of educated non working class. I think the uneducated working class stereotype has gone the way of the dodo.

    Thankfully polling and focus groups nowadays are far more sophisticated and not so blunt as to rely on stereotypes

  38. Boerwar

    Fran

    [No it doesn’t. There’s no fundamental difference between my Astra and Hubby’s Fiesta. They are both designed for similar purposes, are front-wheel drive cars using internal combustion engines and are even both hatchbacks. I can tell them apart however.]

    You can’t fool me. There is no difference between Labor and the Liberals. The Greens keep telling us this so it must be right.

    The Greens will never form government, there is no difference between Labor and Liberal and all that that leaves for the Greens is ethical hand-wringing.

    Oh, and running occasional interferance on behalf of the likes of Abbott&Co.

  39. Fran Barlow

    Zoomster

    [I assure you that if we were busily catering for them, refugees would be being treated a lot more harshly than they are at present.]

    So allowing that you are right, (no pun intended) one should be grateful that the ALP is not catering to them as well as they might?

    If true, this rather does underline my point of course. In your view, the ALP has a duty to reactionaries.

  40. WeWantPaul

    [So, what do you say about my point that the Malaysian solution could act as a push factor then?]

    It was hilarious but didn’t need rebuttal.

  41. DisplayName

    Fran
    [That doesn’t change a thing. If people vote 1 Green and effectively, preference the ALP, the ALP still wins all those seats (unless the Greens either win absolutely on primaries and/ro preferences). The ALP can still ignore those voters and pitch at the reactionaries.]
    So how do you explain the last minority government? Nothing was changed by people voting Green? Pull the other one.

  42. Boerwar

    g

    tsk tsk.

    I was not ‘whinging’. I was pointing out in as few words as possible Greensworld. Here it is again for you:

    (1) There is no difference between Labor and the Liberals.
    (2) Therefore it does not make any difference to the Greens who is in power.’
    (3) Therefore it makes no difference to the Greens what electoral impact they might have on Labor.
    (4) But the Greens will never form government in their own right.
    (5) So the only rational thing for the Greens to do is wring their hands about how terrible everything is because people will not grant them government.

    It’s as easy as 1,2,3.

  43. Sean Tisme

    Second assaulted individual by being assaulted by steroid pumped thug in Kings Cross has died today.

    Lets hope the NSW Government can rush this legislation through to take care of this character:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-12/new-laws-in-nsw-to-double-maximum-jail-penalty-in-wake-of-thoma/5086768

  44. guytaur

    bw

    The last six years prove you wrong about Green thinking. They voted for a Gillard Labor Government and kept voting that way.

    They sure saw a difference we know that.

    You will have to try something new in the face of the fact we have had PM Gillard.

  45. Everything

    Just have to repost this little exchange……..classic!

    [zoomster
    ……It would help if you demonstrated some knowledge of what you were talking about.]

    followed by this:

    [zoomster
    …..My understanding was that they go back to Malaysia, as part of the agreement.]

    “Your understanding”????? I thought you were the expert on this and you were lecturing me on being across the detail better?????

    LOL :devil:

  46. Tricot

    Well, it bears saying again, the Tory mantra is “God, Queen and Country” and this has not changed in the last 100 years.

    Abbott and his lot are currently living the dream.

    The invocation of “war” against AS, “prayers” in schools and old war-horses likely to be made GG, are depressingly true to form.

    Reduction of taxes for the rich and redirection of government largess to the Big End of Town and the well-off are part of the scheme.

    Who is surprised?

    A Compassionate Conservative is a contradiction in terms.

    Conservatism is essentially a selfish credo and those who support it put the greater good of self above the greater good of the many.

    Simplistic true, accurate also.

  47. WeWantPaul

    [Lets hope the NSW Government can rush this legislation through to take care of this character:]

    If the offence has been committed you can’t change the law to change the penalty now.

  48. Boerwar

    ST

    Quite right.

    It is high time that the ADF is called in and a blanket of operational secrecy is cast over the whole issue until such time as the war on roids has been won and the enemy have been annihilated and driven into the sea.

  49. mexicanbeemer

    Guytaur

    Zoomster is correct, historically or the word Zoomster used “Traditionally” the ALP base has been made up by mostly white or European Migrants who are mostly uneducated working class.

    This only started to change in the 1970s when Whitlam moved the ALP more towards the educated progressive centre which had previously been solid Liberal in their thinking.

    The interesting thing will be as the LNP becomes more Tea Party will the traditionally progressive or Liberal thinkers stay with the LNP or go to the ALP or the Greens.

    This will largely be determined by class and policy.

  50. zoomster

    ModLib

    [I thought you were the expert on this and you were lecturing me on being across the detail better?????]

    I’m not claiming to be an expert, but you are very clearly ignorant.

    When I’m fairly sure of something, but can’t be bothered looking it up to verify it, I will use phrases such as ‘my understanding is…’ .

    I try to be honest in my postings here, and not to claim I know something when I don’t.

    (I do admit to over generalising at times, mainly because qualifying every second sentence with ‘there are exceptions’ seems very tedious).

  51. guytaur

    MB

    Oh I missed the traditionally. Zoomster my apologies to you.

  52. zoidlord

    @Mod Lib/3291

    How was the Coalition Party Policy any different to Malaysia?

    @Mod Lib/3300

    Your own posts are lacking in detail, don’t talk about other’s in lacking their detail.

  53. zoomster

    …and if you’re resorting to taking apart my posts for internal inconsistencies (being a human being, I’m sure there are many) then it’s clear you’ve basically thrown in the towel.

    You don’t seem to have actually challenged a single claim I’ve made, which reassures me that I’ve basically got it right.

  54. Asha Leu

    @Boerwar 3266

    [Snap.

    I was actually referring to the last six years of being told that Labor and the Liberals were the same and that the only genuine alternative was the Greens Party.]

    Well, I certainly don’t agree with that notion either, despite my misgivings about areas of Labor policy. Its an argument I would probably prefer Greens MPs didn’t resort to, but its a pretty standard line for all minor parties.

    Myself, I think the best possible government we can get under present circumstances is a Labor government (majority or minority) with the Greens holding the balance in the Senate, and the last parliamentary term has done nothing to persuade me not to keep voting for that outcome.

    [I didn’t assert, BTW, that the Greens do not have an influence at the margins.

    In fact, I have repeatedly argued that they do.

    It is quite clear that, by dividing the left of centre vote and spending most of their time attacking the Labor Party, they are having a significant but deleterious effect on the prospect of Australia ever having a centre-left government again.

    This wrecking operation, coupled with the fact that the Greens will never form government in their own right, ensures that the Greens’ core activity will always be ethical hand-wringing, at which, IMHO, the Greens excel]

    Boerwar, I have a lot of time and respect for your contributions here, but this is a point I vehementally disagree with.

    In a preferential system, the “spoiler” effect of minor parties is virtually non-existent. More so when something like 90% of Green votes go back to Labor anyway (and I’d argue that the remaining 10% are wet Libs or general protest voters unlikely to vote Labor anyway).

    I also dispute that they spend “most of their time” attacking Labor. I would agree that in the previous term, the Greens probably should have been more pragmatic at times and avoiding adding to the sheer volume of negativity being piled onto Julia Gillard. I’m no fan of Christine Milne, nor do I have much time for SHY’s histrionics. However, its not like Labor didn’t give as good as they got. As Centre loves to remind us, there’s plenty of examples of high-profile Labor figures railing against the Greens. That’s politics.

    But in cases where the party generally disagrees with Labor’s actions – especially when Labor happens to be the government of the day at the time – what would you have them do? Just hold their tongue and be happy little vegemites, just to avoid causing inconveniences for Labor? Vote for everything their major party betters put to parliament despite how much it goes against their own platform? They have their own base to think about, their own set of policies they bring to each election, their own credibility as a party that stands by their promises.

    Being in government naturally means copping a whole lot of criticism from a whole lot of different interest groups – it would be no different if the Greens somehow managed to form government in the future. Hell, the Nationals – who are in a far more formal coalition with the Libs than the Greens ever were with Labor in 2010-2013 – will happily attack the Liberal government if they feel it is neccesary.

    And I dispute that – even when Labor were in government – the Greens were somehow singling them out over the Coalition. The government of the day is always going to find thesmelves subject to more criticism than the opposition, because its the government who is actually capable of doing stuff. The Greens may not have ever actively campaigned for the Labor leader (why would they?), but they were pretty adamantally campaigning against Tony Abbott becoming PM. The party may have often been highly critical of various Labor policies, but they still always supported the election of a Labor government over a Liberal one, and the proof is in much of their rhetoric over the last term. They were certainly more loyal than Wilkie was, if nothing else. And with a Liberal government now in power, I can’t say I recall a single instance of the Greens attacking Labor or Shorten (I could easily be wrong, of course).

    Ultimately, the argument you’re making always seems to come down to: “I don’t like the Greens, the Greens keep taking votes that should rightfully be Labor’s, therefore the Greens really should just pack it in and join the Labor party, because there’re never going to form government anyway.” It feels as though I must have been observing a very different parliament in 2010-2013, because what I saw was the Greens being continually willing to comprise on their positions, contributing a (IMO) lot of good to the legislation put forward that term, and – despite many disagreements as the term wore on – unfailingly supporting supply and confidence for the Gillard government.

    And, come on… “a significant but deleterious effect on the prospect of Australia ever having a centre-left government again”? Its just a few months since the last election, and Shorten’s already in front!

  55. Boerwar

    g

    [bw

    The last six years prove you wrong about Green thinking. They voted for a Gillard Labor Government and kept voting that way.

    They sure saw a difference we know that.

    You will have to try something new in the face of the fact we have had PM Gillard.]

    I am not accusing the Greens of being consistent – except insofar as they consistently prefer hand-wringing over forming government in their own right.

    On the one hand they keeping saying (including dozens of time on Bludger) that there is no difference between Labor and the Liberals, and on the other hand, they occasionally mess around with Labor governments and Liberal governments.

    On the one hand they say there is no difference between Labor and the Liberals but then they spent most of the past six years attacking and undermining labor governments.

  56. Sean Tisme

    [If the offence has been committed you can’t change the law to change the penalty now.]

    This is a new dickhead… not the previous dickhead.

    It will be before the courts shortly, hence why I said it should be rushed through.

  57. Sean Tisme

    Oh you meant the offence… I’m pretty sure you can make it retrospective so this character is dealt with by the new law.

  58. zoidlord

    @Sean/3311

    Laws do not fix.

  59. Fran Barlow

    DN

    [So how do you explain the last minority government? Nothing was changed by people voting Green? Pull the other one.]

    I meant that nothing was changed in the drivers of ALP policy. Obviously, the presence in a hung parliament of Greens changed things, but mainly because the ALP did far worse against the LNP than it had done in 2007. Had it won government in its own right, there would probably have been little difference in policy compared with 2007, even if the Greens had performed as well as they did.

  60. mexicanbeemer

    Sean

    You are a funny Conservative as they don’t normally like retrospective laws.

  61. guytaur

    bw

    I still don’t get Labor people like you attacking the Greens when in reality it is the LNP that is the danger to Labor as far as forming government goes.

    If you truly believe the Greens will never form government ignore them

  62. zoomster

    ModLib

    sorry, missed your earlier post.

    There may be some refugees who are batshit crazy enough to think that it’s worth forking out money and risking their lives to marginally improve their lot in Malaysia. I would suggest, however, that most rational beings would direct that money and effort in ways which would lead them to more reliable outcomes.

    I didn’t question why you were raising the issue of caning. It’s a standard argument brought up by those who are anti the Malaysian solution. As I have shown, it is a complete furphy. Agonising over refugees being caned in Malaysia is akin to agonising over whether or not my son (who is presently at the cricket) has been taken up in a UFO and is currently being probed in indelicate places by aliens. I can’t totally rule out that this is not happening to him as I type, but it’s highly unlikely.

    I also clearly believe that it’s not a case of stopping drownings at all costs. I have made it clear I disapprove of the Manus/Nauru solution implemented by Rudd. I believe drownings can be stopped AND refugees treated with dignity.

    IF the Malaysian solution had been implemented, I believe both would have happened. The boats would have stopped. We would have taken more refugees, from areas of greater need (including more from Malaysia). We would have improved conditions for refugees currently living in Malaysia (whose fate seems not to trouble you at all). And we would, in all likelihood, be negotiating with other countries to implement similar schemes more widely.

    Of course, I can’t prove any of that, just as I can’t prove that my son won’t be taken up by a UFO and probed any time soon.

  63. Boerwar

    Asha Leu

    I have voted for the Greens from time-to-time but the past six years have taught me the error of their ways.

    I don’t expect the Greens to agree with Labor for the simple reason that the Greens are never going to form government and Labor, in order to make any difference, has to try to form, or keep, government. BUT the Greens see themselves as being in competition for votes with Labor. This lies at the heart of why I have abandoned the Greens. It is this contradiction at the heart of the Greens’ stance that helped deliver Abbott&Co.

    Essentially, one party has to compromise to compete for real government. The other party can take the ethical high ground, wring its hands about any shocking moral compromises, demand perfection, act as a spoiler, undermine Labor by wedging it repeatedly, and so on and so forth.

    To rationalise this wrecking behaviour to themselves, the Greens have NO CHOICE but to tell themselves, and everyone else, that there is no difference between Labor and the Liberals.

    Based on 11 years of Howard and 4 months of Abbott, I call bullshit on that.

  64. Sean Tisme

    The Greens position on boats seems to be to encourage people paying tens of thousands to jump on a dangerous leaky boat to get here. Those that can’t afford to pay stay in some run down UN camp in Africa, Pakistan, etc.

    Clearly then there is a much better way of implementing Greens policy… cut out the middleman. Setup shop in Afghanistan, Africa, Middle East… and Auction off Australian Humanitarian Visas off to the highest bidder to fill the quota.

    Nice little money earner for the Government, no dangerous boat trips, people smugglers shut down and the Greens can be happy in knowing only the top 1% got a humanitarian spot which is the truth of their position.

  65. Boerwar

    g

    [bw

    I still don’t get Labor people like you attacking the Greens when in reality it is the LNP that is the danger to Labor as far as forming government goes.

    If you truly believe the Greens will never form government ignore them]

    It would be lovely to ignore the Greens. But when their main achievement is to divide the centre left vote and act as spoilers on behalf of the likes of Abbott&Co then it is a bit hard to actually ignore them.

  66. zoidlord

    @Sean/3319

    And your position is to deport them all, which costs us alot of money as I told you last night.

  67. Boerwar

    There are millions of parents of school children and the poorer superannuants who are already out of pocket as a result of the Abbott Government.

    But the Greens will tell you that there is no difference between Labor and the Liberals.

  68. guytaur

    bw

    Projecting onto Greens problems of Labor is a failure on your part.

    Labor can get those voters back. If it wants to.

  69. Boerwar

    g

    [bw

    Projecting onto Greens problems of Labor is a failure on your part.

    Labor can get those voters back. If it wants to.]

    I don’t have to project anything onto anybody. What a senseless thing to say.

    Posters will recall that I advocated for the Informal Party throughout the last election period.

  70. DisplayName

    Fran
    [They are with this non-trivial difference: they appeal to substantially different albeit overlapping demographics. That both predisposes how each frames its policies and limits the credibility of each outside their demographic.]
    So we agree they’re not the same then, good.

    [I meant that nothing was changed in the drivers of ALP policy.]
    You believe that the prospect of having to form government with the Greens changes *nothing* within the ALP?

    [Obviously, the presence in a hung parliament of Greens changed things …]
    So we agree that voting Green does have an effect, good.

    [… but mainly because the ALP did far worse against the LNP than it had done in 2007. Had it won government in its own right, there would probably have been little difference in policy compared with 2007, even if the Greens had performed as well as they did.]
    Oh this is just ridiculous. Voting Green has no effect because in some alternate universe they didn’t get enough votes to influence the outcome. Ok, you’re probably not saying that but then this is totally irrelevant. All I need is one example of where voting Green has an effect to disprove your assertion to the contrary, and we’ve just had one for the past 3 or so years.

  71. pedant

    Dr Donnelly is right about the Judeo- Christian heritage: kids in schools should certainly be taught about paedophile priests.

  72. WeWantPaul

    [Oh you meant the offence… I’m pretty sure you can make it retrospective so this character is dealt with by the new law.]

    I am pretty sure that even if you can change the law to alter punishments after the crime has been committed you don’t do it because it is fundamentally unjust. Think North Korean.

  73. rossmcg

    Mexicanbeemer

    J Howard’s name was mud in WA with the Tories caught up in his retrospective legislation aimed at cleaning up the bottom of the harbour tax rorts.
    The legislation they need in NSW to stop people being bashed in the streets needs to be aimed at the liquor industry but we know that chances of that happening. zero .

  74. guytaur

    BW

    Yes you are projecting. Any problem about attracting voters to the Labor party is the problem of the Labor party.

  75. guytaur

    @Leroy_Lynch: How the pink batts royal commission could rebound on Abbott http://t.co/G2rm0rtSDC #auslaw #auspol #qldpol Lots of good points

  76. Everything

    [zoomster
    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 3:48 pm | PERMALINK
    …and if you’re resorting to taking apart my posts for internal inconsistencies (being a human being, I’m sure there are many) then it’s clear you’ve basically thrown in the towel.

    You don’t seem to have actually challenged a single claim I’ve made, which reassures me that I’ve basically got it right.]

    oh dear! First the above and then a post about UFOs…….you seem to be dissolving before our very eyes!

    Interesting that you say I am not able to challenge a single claim you have made in the very post where you accuse me of taking apart your posts for internal inconsistencies!!!!

    Do you even see the howlers you are posting?

    I note that you admit that there could be push factors for AS. However, you have still not answered the point about the push factors for those running the boats. Why is that not a push factor?

    [I didn’t question why you were raising the issue of caning.]

    Oh really? You didn’t raise the question of whether it was racist to raise it????? No….OK, if you say so.

    Well, I know you are not going to provide anything more of substance so I might take up the opportunity to have a swim myself!

    Have a great weekend everyone……stay consistent won’t you? :devil:

  77. Boerwar

    What the eff is the ‘Judao-Christian heritage’ and where the eff did it come from? Why has this phrase suddenly become the favoured form of the reactionaries’ fervid value set?

    ‘Judao’? Should we start getting ready to sacrifice our first born sons, circumsize our kids, abstain from pork, and cut the throats of living animals in order to get our lamb chops in a righteous fashion?

    If not, what do they really mean?

    Whatever happened to our dear old Graeco-Romano heritage?

  78. Boerwar

    g

    [Yes you are ‘projecting’.]

    What does that actually mean?

  79. guytaur

    bw

    You are projecting Labor problems and making out they are because of the Greens. If Labor had policies that attracted those people they would vote Labor not Green that is what it means.

  80. DisplayName

    Boerwar, it means you are casting shadows of your own psyche.

  81. zoidlord

    @Mod Lib/3331

    Mod Lib telling someone they been posting inconsistencies? Me thinks people need to look in the mirror imho.

    (and no, voting for someone else doesn’t mean you get away with it).

  82. zoomster

    ModLib

    accusing you of racism for stereotyping Malaysian policeman as thugs who beat the cr*p out of all and sundry for no reason whatsoever wasn’t asking why you had raised the subject.

    And yes, I’m at the point of treating your posts with utter contempt – hence the outrageous analogies.

    Although I’d still say that a refugee under Australian protection in Malaysia has as much chance of being caned as my son has of being abducted by aliens.

  83. Asha Leu

    @WeWantPaul 3272

    [Yeah Abbott’s nothing is going to be so much better. That opposition by the greens still supported by you has to be in the running for the stupidest own goal in Australian Political History, right up there with Labor getting rid of the Upper House in Qld]

    Well, it was an own goal alright, but I’m not sure you and I will agree on who kicked it.

    Should the Greens have been pragamatic with Rudd and Turnbull’s carbon scheme? Maybe. I was torn on the decision at the time and I’m still not entirely certain they made the right move. A half-arsed emissions reduction scheme was probably better than none, and, yeah, it could always have ben ammended and improved in later terms.

    Or maybe Abbott’s “Great Big New Tax” line would have gained traction earlier and he would have won in 2010 and repealed in. Or perhaps the leglislation would have turned out to be textbook-Rudd and all sorts of problems would have emerged later on to bite Labor in the arse. Maybe after all the policital heartache they suffered for it, Labor would have been to afraid to alter it at all in the future and we would have been stuck with that ineffective legislation until such time as the Libs won goverment and scrapped it.

    Or maybe Rudd would have called a double-dissolution in early 2010, won a definitive victory and then – basking in his new mandate – negiotiated new legislation with the BoP-holding Greens. Certainly, that’s what most people would have assumed to be the likely outcome from the events of late ’09 at the time.

    That’s the trouble with hypotheticals. They can be twisted to prove whatever you want them to prove.

    However, I will note that the Labor/Greens/Indis carbon scheme is still in place and doing its thing four months after Abbott’s victory, and doesn’t seem to be going anywhere any time soon. By the time he manages to negotiate a deal with the new Crazy Crossbench (assuming Master Negotiator Abbott manages that at all), we may well be not too far away from a Shorten victory.

  84. guytaur

    @smh: PM Abbott’s secretive ways have gone too far, says former Liberal Party leader John Hewson. http://t.co/UyY4H1xrCu #auspol

  85. zoomster

    [Interesting that you say I am not able to challenge a single claim you have made in the very post where you accuse me of taking apart your posts for internal inconsistencies!!!!]

    Er, what? An inconsistency in argument is not the same as an error of fact.

    If you don’t understand that, I do apologise – you are even more ignorant than I supposed, and I’m taking unfair advantage of that.

  86. Rex Douglas

    The Greens Party are as intolerant, irresponsible and arrogant as the Conservatives are.

  87. WeWantPaul

    [Should the Greens have been pragamatic with Rudd and Turnbull’s carbon scheme? ]

    Yes. It was a good scheme that could have been and would have been accepted, made better over time. The ethical line would have been “We think we can do better but this is important and it is urgent so we are going to support it 110% and work as hard as we can in the future to improve it, we urge all Australians to get behind it with us.”

    Instead Abbott said ‘its cr*p’ and the greens said ‘its cr*p’ and every week 1000’s of Australians who previously supported a price on carbon stopped supporting it.

  88. guytaur

    Wow the LNP must be going really bad. The attacks on the Greens have stepped the most since the election,

  89. zoomster

    …and, of course, I haven’t been inconsistent – unless qualifying a statement you’re not totally sure of is a sign of inconsistency. In other circles, that would be seen as honesty.

  90. Rex Douglas

    oh and the Informal Party are just a bunch of spoilt quitters

  91. Asha Leu

    @Boerwar 3318

    I guess this is where you and I are unlikely to ever agree.

    To my eyes, the Greens were very pragmatic during the previous term, and were willing to compromise on a lot of different issues. Barely anything would have passed the senate if they hadn’t. Even the carbon price negotiated with Gillard involved big compromises, despite the “Bob Brown is the real PM!” histrionics from the right.

  92. frednk

    What the eff is the ‘Judao-Christian heritage’; and why doesn’t it include the other great Abrahamic religion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

  93. confessions

    [The Greens Party are as intolerant, irresponsible and arrogant as the Conservatives are.]

    And just as smug and superior as well.

  94. Rex Douglas

    funny how the Conservative/Green cartel claims to now occupy the ‘sensible centre’… 😆

  95. Asha Leu

    @WeWantPaul 3342

    Well, it was crap. Just because many in the Libs agreed doesn’t change that fact. Broken clocks and all.

    And I would add that the stimying of the Malaysia solution – and the recent scrapping of the debt ceiling for that matter – are arguably cases where the Coalition is siding with the Greens, not the other way around. Both are perfectly consistant with Greens policy – its the Coalition who backflipped for political gain.

  96. guytaur

    confessions

    The Greens are here to stay, Like or loathe them. Labor will need them to form government in the future as voters become less and less party loyal.

  97. AussieAchmed

    Sean’s heroes are nothing but gutless bullies who target the vulnerable, the poor and the weak

  98. Boerwar

    dN

    [Boerwar, it means you are casting shadows of your own psyche.]

    Golly. Now it is all clear. Perhaps, while you are rummaging around your psyches, you Greens could:

    (1) admit that you will never form government
    (2) admit that you will never affect any policy in Australia except at the margins
    (3) admit that you are in competition with Labor for centre left votes.
    (4) admit that this competition motivates you to damage Labor.
    (5) admit that this competition is to the advantage of Abbott&Co.

  99. Rex Douglas

    The Greens Party are simply never wrong… it’s always someone elses fault… ALWAYS !

  100. guytaur

    bw

    Maybe Labor could have policies to attract voters. That might just work instead of blaming the Greens.

  101. WeWantPaul

    [Well, it was crap. Just because many in the Libs agreed doesn’t change that fact. Broken clocks and all.]

    No it wasn’t. that is just a lie the greens told to defend the indefensible.

  102. guytaur

    WWP

    Now you lie. The timeline was clear. It was also clear it was the LNP who backflipped. Abbott friendly media told us so.

  103. AussieAchmed

    People should read the warning signs of fascism.

    I see a lot of the signs displayed by this Abbott Govt and Newman

  104. guytaur

    WWP

    I retract lie and put mistaken as memory can play tricks,

  105. DisplayName

    Boerwar
    [Golly. Now it is all clear.]
    Glad I could be of help ;).

  106. zoomster

    guytaur

    the Greens vote appears to be declining, not gaining.

    They may survive but it’s unlikely they’ll do so without a bit of readjustment.

    Minor parties often experience a brief (as in, a couple of elections-worth) time where they seem to be firmly established, followed by a decline.

    After all, The Australian Democrats still exist as a party, and still field candidates, and still get votes.

    It’s no coincidence that the decline in these parties often follows a time when they have had a real say in government, been tested and found wanting.

  107. ruawake

    I see guytaur is having a Greens day. 😆

  108. ruawake

    Tomorrow will be taken up with guytaur telling us he is not a Green at all.

  109. guytaur

    rua

    Only because of the idiots wasting their time attacking the Greens instead of the myriad actions of Abbott and company.

  110. WeWantPaul

    [People should read the warning signs of fascism.

    I see a lot of the signs displayed by this Abbott Govt and Newman]

    And ST’s posts.

  111. guytaur

    zoomster

    What you say is true. They only thing is the Greens have done this before in Tasmania. They survived and at the moment have a Green as a Minister.

    So yes we shall see but by no means write the Green off just yet.

  112. poroti

    ruawake

    [I see guytaur is having a Greens day. 😆 ]
    And having the time of his life
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6iUJJVqTxY

    .
    Unless he is an

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yi-LvnM_5M

  113. guytaur

    rua

    I have spent one day talking positively about the Greens. I talk a lot on this blog positively about Labor too.

    My negative comments tend to be reserved for policy of the LNP.

  114. guytaur

    “@SenatorWong: Heartbreaking words from Daniel Christie’s family. Deepest sympathy. “Go home and hug your children. Tell them you love them.””

  115. Just Me

    [3352
    AussieAchmed

    Sean’s heroes are nothing but gutless bullies who target the vulnerable, the poor and the weak]

    while crawling so far up the arse of the rich and powerful that they will never see daylight again.

  116. Rex Douglas

    I despair when I see people who speak out against coward hitters that seriously injure and sometimes kill while at the same time support sending soldiers to a war that is based on lies.

  117. poroti

    WeWantPaul

    The video from Pink Floyd’s The Wall would be appropriate music for him.

    [We’re gonna find out where you folks really stand.

    Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
    Get them up against the wall!
    There’s one in the spotlight, he don’t look right to me,
    Get him up against the wall!
    That one looks Jewish!
    And that one’s a coon!
    Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
    There’s one smoking a joint,
    And another with spots!
    If I had my way,
    I’d have all of you shot!]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ESh9l_SxE

  118. lizzie

    Here we go again.

    [@StanSteam2 6h
    Turnbull to study postal service reform (sic) in US http://www.afr.com/p/national/malcolm_turnbull_to_study_postal_vzGJAVpbJbOAi4f5zQAmNL … #auspol ]

  119. lizzie

    [. . .and meet technology companies in Silicon Valley.]

  120. poroti

    lizzie

    I guess we can but wait until Dutton announces he is to look at the US health care system. 🙁

  121. Asha Leu

    BW

    Well, I certainly don’t claim to speak for the rest of the Green voters in the country (how exactly do I go about getting connected to these hive minds that apparently exist within each party’s voter base?), but IMO:

    1) I don’t believe absolutes exist in politics. But, yes, I concede that the likelihood of the Greens forming a majority or minority government at any point in the next 10-15 years seems extrordinarly unlikely.

    2) When you hold the balance of power in a house of parliament, it doesn’t matter whether legislation is “on the margins” or not. It all has to pass the house to become law, and therefore a party with significant influence on the passage of a bill can try to force however many ammendments they can get away with. Sorry, I can’t agree with you here.

    3) True. However, said centre-left votes actually happen to be human beings with mind, opinions, free will and the like. Maybe all these centre-left voters are actually defecting to the Greens because they, you know, prefer their policies to Labor’s. Crazy, I know, but it could just be possible.

    4) Well, it doesn’t motivate me, but I’m not a Greens MP (or even a member), just a random loser posting on a blog. As for what goes on in the heads of actually infuential members of the party – I’m sure poaching votes from Labor ispart of their strategy, just as Labor puts significant effort in winning votes from the Greens. Welcome to the wonderful world of democracy. But its also about simply representing policy areas that Labor – being a far broader church than the Greens – either won’t touch or advocate more right-wing policies on. Shockingly, voters in general tend to vote for the parties whose platforms they most agree with.

    5) Nope, I don’t agree. Well, for the most part. If we lived in a country with a FPTP system, then sure, but when 90% of Greens votes go back to Labor (the rest probably not being people who would vote Labor in any case) and Greens MPs almost always support Labor minority governments, I can’t buy that argument. Should the Greens have been more pragmatic and sided wirh Gillard and Labor more in the last term? Yes, I agree, they should have – and they arguably paid the price at the ballot box – but you can’t deny that their points of disagreement with Labor were all consistant with their policy positions, nor that they always supported the Gillard government over the alternative.

    Ultimately, roughly a tenth of Australian voters support the Greens because, well, roughly a tenth of Australian voters support the Greens. That may change, it may be substantially reduced or increased at subsequent elections, but if said voters wanted to vote Labor, they would have (and will do in future, I guess, if they agree with Boerwar’s view on the last six years).

    Anyway, I have a question of my own. Which of these options do you suspect is more damaging to the prospects of Labor winning government?

    1) Voting 1 Green, 2 Labor, 3, 4, 5, 6 whatever, and the equivilent in the Senate.

    2) Voting informal

    I’m content that I did all I could to help Labor retain government at the last election. If you didn’t want to do that, well that’s certainly your pregorative (and I can sympathise with your reasoning for doing so, considering who was Labor leader at the time), but do you not thing its a bit rich to then accuse others of working against the election of Labor governments?

  122. poroti

    BK

    A Pastafarian was recently elected to the New York city council. Lovely picture of him being sworn in wearing the obligatory colander on his head. Do ya reckon Pastafarianism would be what Donnelly the Dolt had in mind ?

  123. deblonay

    Re The Greens vote
    _______________
    As about one in six Green voters have fref. the Liberals it’s possible that this group have recently gone to the Libs mor Palmer….but for how long ??

    It hard to see this continuing,and the Greens have a solid core of voters who vote for them in despair at the “Liberal-Lite” polices of many in the SALP…and the power of the catholic-right DLP types in the ALP(and who can forget cabinet ministers like Senator (Captain America) Arbib and the rest of the NSW Labor Mafia…

    Instead pf sp[ecilating on the Greens …better to come up with a solution to the NSW ALP”s problems which look terminal to me…will they ever win again in NSW ?
    SOOO……we have the usual anti-Green stuff…perhaps its a guiet news dayt it is something 0n PB we have come to expect….rest assured that the Greens who are in most state parliaments..and the ACT …and Federal Canberra …will be a mojor force in the next elections and there will be NO LABOR GOVT without their prefs…and many in the Causus now owe their survival to the Green prefs…ask them howe they feel about denouncing the Greens….there will be a great silence

    I had a life of Labor activity as a campaigner and a candidate too… but with some of my family , I now see myself as a Green voter …as I have done for the last decade… and there many like us

  124. BK

    poroti
    Could be!
    Meanwhile here is an excellent contribution under the ABC story I linked above.
    _________________________________________________________
    thethingis 1:34 PM on 11/01/2014

    I fundamentally disagree with the view that religion should be taught in schools with the exception that religion should be studied as part of any history subject. The focus should be on an analysis of why humans felt they needed religion. Historically, when people could not understand something, they ascribed it to an imaginary being that “must” somehow have all the answers. Religion may have “served it’s purpose” but, for example, the idea that you shouldn’t eat pork because it is unclean has been resolved by humans working out how to prepare and cook it.

    What people need to do is “think” and be willing to accept that they don’t have all the answers right now. There is no need to ascribe unanswered questions to an imaginary being. Based on observed history, god can be defined as “all that we don’t understand”. Once we understand something, it is no longer “god”. A great example is all the diseases that people have “prayed” to have cured, but over time science has provided the cure and so people no longer have to “pray” for a cure.

    These people are believers in one section of a belief system. There are numerous other belief systems around the world. Logically, they can’t all be right. Time will show that they are ALL wrong, just as we now know that the ancient Egyptians belief in the “sun god Ra” was wrong. That culture believed the sun was a large fire lit every morning and pulled across the sky in a chariot.

  125. zoomster

    deblonay

    the ‘Labor MPs owe their seats to Greens preferences’ assumes that if the Greens didn’t exist, those votes wouldn’t have gone to Labor.

    Arguably, if the Greens didn’t exist, those votes would have been first preferences for Labor, not second.

  126. liyana

    I am not at all surprised that the moron who has been selected to ‘review’ the curriculum does not understand the concept of the separation of church and state.

  127. poroti

    BK

    I went to a church school ( C of E ) where a daily “religious service” was in the constitution and weekly divinity classes part of the curriculum. All non bible bashing. You know how polite CoE’s are ? :).

    I still remember in third year the divinity teacher telling us that schools like ours churned out more atheists than schools that did not have such religious obligations. Class consensus at the time was that he was quite correct. Petty much wall to wall atheist heathens.

  128. ruawake

    I have linked to this before, an Article by Andrew Leigh on NSW factions.

    [Factionalism in the Australian Labor Party (ALP) is a phenomenon much remarked
    upon, but little analysed. Like the role of the MaŽ a in Italian politics, few outside
    the system seem to understand the power networks, whilst few inside are prepared
    to share their thoughts with the outside world. Yet without understanding factions,
    it is impossible to properly comprehend the Labor Party.
    Every organisation, and certainly every political party, contains organised power
    groupings. Those within the ALP, however, are far more structured than in any
    other Australian political party1 or indeed any other social democratic party in the
    Western world.2 The term ‘faction’, which retains distinctly pejorative overtones3
    in most political parties, has long since lost such connotations in the ALP.]

    http://andrewleigh.org//pdf/Factions(AJPS).pdf

    Could those who slip in the term faction into their rants, please read and understand.

  129. Asha Leu

    @zoomster 3381

    [Arguably, if the Greens didn’t exist, those votes would have been first preferences for Labor, not second.]

    Quite possibly. Or the votes could have gone to some other left-leaning party (or parties) filling the vacuum. Or they could vote informal. Or – god forbid – the Liberals. Or some mix of those options.

    That’s the trouble with alternative universes. They can be used to prove anything.

    In my alternative universe, the Greens won a majority in 2004 and PM Bob Brown has just retired and been replaced by PM Ludlum..

  130. deblonay

    Education….”Free…Secular and Compulsory
    ______________________
    In 1871 Victoria led the way in setting up a state secular system,based on the above motto…ending a half century of sectarian schools and endless nasty bickering …and a plethore of small religious schools all poorly equipped in everyway to teach kids…..

    What followed in Victoria and elsewhere was the state secular education which survives to this day

    Only the Catholics…and the richest Protestants kept their own schools

    It’s odd that ideoologues like Donnelly are seeking to change all this as a moment when the churches have never been more discredit or disliked …with all the stories of child abuse which seems endemic in Christian school….

    and when fewer than ever Australian are religious in their church attendances.. and when ..those with no religion now make up a sizeable mimnrity in the census results…and the fastest growing “church” is Islam both here and around the worlde
    How would Donnelly fell about Koran classes in High Schools.?
    what a hoot the God-Botherers are when on the defensive

  131. CTar1

    guy

    [They survived and at the moment have a Green as a Minister.]

    Until Tuesday.

  132. Asha Leu

    In general, I think it would be good if people on all sides of politics stopped conflating the views of actual elected (or simply influential) members of political parties with those of random sympathisers who post on internet forums. Treating both groups as one and the same rarely leads to rational debate.

  133. Tricot

    Deblonay@3386

    The Donnelly call is consistent with his ravings/rantings on education for the past 20 years.

    His views are discredited in mainstream education circles and is really a laughing stock.

    Sadly, he is the best – a right wing reactionary – that Pyne can come up with.

    As my old mum used to say ‘every dog has his day and every bitch her night’ and it seems the likes of Donnelly is to have his day.

    The odds of “prayers” happening in any/most government schools in the next 5 years is zero.

    The conservatives just don’t get it that while we are nominally a “Christian country” the empty churches and the discredited sects suggest otherwise.

  134. poroti

    Tricot

    I’ve gone and read some of his blogs over at the “Institute” he established. This sums up his efforts

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DfCoy_kQh08/TU2-xQTDYFI/AAAAAAAADNo/1_-jq1DR1Yo/s1600/grandpa_simpson_yelling_at_cloud.jpg

  135. CTar1

    poroti – From yesterday:

    [A while back I read an article which, from memory, said that the Westminster parliament has no jurisdiction over you lot “within” . Have I remembered correctly ?]

    It was like that 25 years ago. Since then some ground has been given.

    But nothing that boof head Boris and his Council decide applies to the CoL and there are still things where the CoL has retained our rights.

    We’re not quite Wales now but a good compromise and voted for with a healthy margin. (Funny that I get to vote in that but not General Elections).

  136. zoomster

    Nonsense – in this case, we have a wealth of evidence to strongly suggest that the majority of Greens voters would vote Labor if the Greens didn’t exist.

    Greens voters, for example, are less likely than voters for any other party to follow a HTV card – yet consistently, 80% of those who vote Green first, vote Labor second.

    In other words, 80% of Green voters would vote Labor first if the Greens didn’t exist.

    I’ve heard people handing out Green HTV cards saying to voters, “Voting Greens makes your vote count twice. It gets counted for the Greens, and then it gets counted for Labor.”

    It’s not a wild and woolly theory pulled out of a hat. It’s backed by evidence.

  137. lefty e

    Dr Kev Donnelly’s education packs – brought to you by big Tobacco!

    Ciggies are good for you, kids!

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=1757

  138. ruawake

    Ocean Protector is on the move.

  139. poroti

    CTar1

    Good stuff. Keep those barbarians at bay. I also meant to mention to you a comment left at an “Angry of Mayfair” article about the alleged snubbing of the ANZACS by Dave and co. Probably a Mordor beat up.
    Any way , they said that they bought with their monthly wine allowance ,as a tribute to the ANZACS, Aussie reds and Kiwi whites, he urged others to follow suit. He then made me think of you by mentioning by name the patrol and a couple of other details about what the kiwi frigate helped out with in the Falklands War. This as an extra reason to buy “Antipodean wines” .

  140. lizzie

    I can’t find out how WA is going in the heat (ABC hopeless on National News). Is all OK there?

  141. deblonay

    Re The Greens worldwide
    _____________________
    In Germany the Greens were in a former coaliton with the Socialists,and are the major party in one Germany state parliment..and in govt in some others …and in coalition with the Socialists and the Left Party in Berlin City Council…a major body

    In France there are linked to the Socialists under Hollande(who has proved a disaster with plunging poll figures…so the Greens are wary of that lin…as many left voters are swinging to the Left Alliance which has it’s roots in the Old Communist Party…as does the Left Party in Germany

    There are Greens in Italy.Austria/Portugal/Spain/The UK /Scotland and Ireland and Denmarkk in the national parliament and in local Govt…in power in Berlin Council with the Left Party and Socialists..and of course in the EU Parlt…and local and regional parlt. too in most countries
    as in NZ and Canada too

    So to pretend they are a unique Aust. event and will fade away like the Dem or Hansons party…shows a great ignorance of the world situation today
    The Greens would do well in the USA if a corrupt election system didn’t make small parties difficult to operate…and many US citizens are deeply unhappy with their whole party system and its corruption at every level…Tweedeldum and Tweedeldee indeed

  142. poroti

    lefty e @3994

    Is there a tory that will not sell their arse-soul ?

  143. CTar1

    poroti

    ‘Angry’ is a very much ‘Empire’ or at least keep them close institution in London papers.

    Not much doesn’t set her off.

    It’s a ‘group’ thing for her that I’m not necessarily against. Doesn’t like Yanks.

  144. poroti

    lizzie

    A balmy 42 at the mo in Perth. Because it has been so mild the sudden heat does not seem so bad. Tomorrow in the 40’s but then 29 and 29 predicted.

  145. zoomster

    deblonay

    I note in your post above you refer to several different countries having Socialist parties.

    On your reasoning, that means that there must be a thriving Socialist Party in Australia, too.

    Just because a number of other countries have a party with a particular name does not (logically) mean that one has to exist in Australia.

    You will also note I haven’t said the Greens will cease to exist – after all, we do still have the Australian Democrats, the DLP, and PHON as functioning political parties.

  146. poroti

    CTar1

    [Doesn’t like Yanks.]
    I did notice more than a few comments about when the seppos bothered to turn up 😆

  147. rossmcg

    Lizzie

    Thanks for your concern. It is vey hot. Haven’t quite got to the forecast 44c in Perth yet. About 42 now, but it is early and there is no sign of a sea breeze., there will be reports of higher temps from North and east of the city for sure. I went out to the shop a while ago and it is hot, but it’s not like I am digging ditches

  148. MTBW

    zoomster

    Do you have to speak everyone on here in such a condescending manner.

    You are not in a classroom now.

    We don’t all need a lecture and corrections from you.

    It is terribly boring.

  149. deblonay

    Railway” summer timetables
    ” in Melb
    _______________
    This chaos will help to sink Napthine as the public suffers in heat and over crowding

  150. zoomster

    …you will also note that I said the Greens might continue to thrive if they readjust – and most Greens parties which flourish overseas have undergone exactly the kind of readjustment I’m thinking about.

    Basically, my understanding is that Greens parties who found themselves in power have to decide whether to remain morally pure or to make compromises in order to govern effectively.

    This means a split in the party, with those who accept the latter course generally triumphant.

    If the Australian Greens remains consistent to the frans of this world, they will diminish in power and influence (and I know fran would be perfectly comfortable with that). If they reject the frans of this world for a more middle stream attitude to power and politics, they will thrive (but the frans of this world will leave them).

  151. zoomster

    MTBW

    use the scroll thingy, then.

  152. CTar1

    poroti

    There’s been a string of ‘Angry in Mayfair’ since Suez.

    Lady Pamela ‘X’ is the current one. (And not a bad critic of Govt policy).

  153. MTBW

    Or you stop telling everyone the errors of their posts.

    Can I ask “who are the Fran’s of this world”.

    She is entitled to post her thoughts just like you.

    Patronising and arrogant!

  154. ruawake

    MTBW

    Do you have to speak everyone on here in such a condescending manner?

    You are not in a classroom now.

    We don’t need a lecture and corrections from you.

    It is terribly boring.

    (please note the triffic editing. 😆 )

  155. daretotread

    Zoomster

    I have been out all day so could not respond earlier.

    UM!!!!!

    My point was that MALAYSIA did not sign the deal. That was why the high court said it was illegal under our legislation.

    The HC commented that none of the following applied

    1. Malaysia had not signed the UN refugees convention
    2. There was not legislation in place ion Malaysia to protect refugees
    3. Malaysia had not even signed a MOU with Australia guaranteeing basics like non refoulment.

    There was a strong implication that if Malaysia had taken the smallest step towards committing to protect the refugees the HC view would have been different.

    This is the reason why Manus is legal and Malaysian not. It is to do with Malaysia not us.

  156. zoomster

    dtt

    read the article. Malaysia signed the deal.

  157. Jackol

    MTBW:

    We don’t all need a lecture and corrections from you.

    It is terribly boring.

    Patronising and arrogant!

    I, for one, value Zoomster’s posts – even when she is pointlessly debating that waste of bandwidth Mod Lib.

    I certainly value Zoomster’s contributions a lot more than I have ever valued a post from you, MTBW.

    And if you don’t want to be pinged on this, stop posting the holier-than-thou crap such as that quoted above.

  158. MTBW

    jackol

    That is fine with me. Your choice!

  159. poroti

    CTar1

    [There’s been a string of ‘Angry in Mayfair’ since Suez.]

    Perhaps “Angry in Mayfair” is some obscure part of one of the UK’s legendary civil service departments ? A bit of a sounding board for those of the “right” demographic.

  160. Tricot

    poroti

    Donnelly is actually a class traitor. He spent some time teaching in government schools then chose to spit on them at a later period.

    His reactionary views have been discredited for years though speaks volumes to where the conservatives think education is meant to be.

    One of the blessings of a Federal system is that the States jealously guard their control of education – as Labor has found to its pain – and the influence – other than money, the Feds have, is mainly jaw-bone.

    Just as Howard gave money for flagpoles and curates, so Abbott can do little more.

    Rudd’s ‘school halls’ will be appreciated for what they were, a one-in-twenty-years bonus for all schools in the country.

  161. Acerbic Conehead

    Boerwar,

    [Whatever happened to our dear old Graeco-Romano heritage?]

    I’ll have to wrestle with that before I get back to you.

  162. Boerwar

    Asha Leu

    The Greens have yet to realize that you can’t run Australia from a BOP in the Senate.

  163. ruawake

    [My point was that MALAYSIA did not sign the deal. That was why the high court said it was illegal under our legislation]

    Wrong.

    The High Court stated the Immigration Minister did not have the power to do what he had done under Howard for years. In fact the HC found that Howard sending people to Nauru would have faced the same problem of faulty drafting of legislation had a case been bought. The solution was simple, draft proper legislation.

    Stop spreading crap.

  164. zoomster

    Thanks, Jackol & ru (and sorry, Jackol, for the ML stuff….)

    dtt

    the High Court needed Malaysia to have some kind of LEGISLATIVE obligation to uphold refugee rights – so either they needed to sign the UN convention OR they needed to pass their own legislation guaranteeing certain standards OR the Australian laws needed to be changed to by pass that obligation.

    Nothing to do with whether or not they had a signed agreement with Australia, which they did.

    http://theconversation.com/malaysia-solution-high-court-ruling-explained-3154

  165. CTar1

    poroti

    [s some obscure part of one of the UK’s legendary civil service departments ?]

    Possibly.

    ‘Angry’ was checked out once and found to live in Chelsea.

  166. ruawake

    [You can’t transfer someone to a country which is not a party to the 1951 convention.]

    Tell Tony Abbott that.

  167. Acerbic Conehead

    Ruawake,

    [I see guytaur is having a Greens day]

    He’s on the boulevard of broken dreams.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soa3gO7tL-

  168. Acerbic Conehead

    Poroti,

    Just seen that you got in before me!

  169. sprocket_

    GeekRulz on twitter is providing an excellent montage of historical photos which will help Pyne in structuring the new school curriculum.

    The requisite emphasis on sport, religion, art, military history – and of course Tony Abbott’s so far unappreciated role.

    https://twitter.com/geeksrulz

  170. poroti

    Acerbic Conehead

    Not with that song 🙂 Excellent choice.

  171. zoidlord

    @sprocket_/3428

    Pretty much my view of Abbott.

  172. AussieAchmed

    You can’t transfer someone to a country which is not a party to the 1951 convention.

    Tell Tony Abbott that
    ======================================

    If they so “No” he will punch the wall next to their head?

    Or Have Pyne write them out of the curriculum

  173. Jackol

    I have to say I agree with Boerwar on wtf does Judeo-Christian values mean?

    Wikipedia implies that the term “Judeo-Christian” was largely an invention of the American political scene, and is used for a few purposes. In the sense that I think any LNP/Conservative here might use “Judeo-Christian values” it seems to be clearly (and inappropriately) coopted from American culture wars.

  174. rossmcg

    Sprocket

    I shall treasure that link

  175. daretotread

    The court found processing countries must also provide asylum-seekers with “effective procedures for assessing their need for protection”, and provide protection for certified refugees pending their resettlement or return to their home countries.

    “On the facts which the parties had agreed, the court held that Malaysia is not legally bound to provide the access and protections the Migration Act requires for a valid declaration,” the court said in a statement.
    Zoomster
    Do you mean this article. ie the one where the signed agreement expressly says it is not legally binding. Please can I sell you a used car on this basis. I promise that the car has had all its services but if I lie it is not binding, and nor is the price.

    [“Malaysia is not a party to the Refugees Convention or its protocol. The arrangement which the minister signed with the Malaysian Minister for Home Affairs on 25 July, 2011 said expressly that it was not legally binding.

    “The parties agreed that Malaysia is not legally bound to, and does not, recognise the status of refugee in its domestic law.”]

  176. ruawake

    Good to see Kev campaigning with his replacement in Griffith.

  177. zoomster

    dtt

    So now you’re admitting there was a signed agreement – which was what you were denying, and what I was pointing out.

  178. WeWantPaul

    [Good to see Kev campaigning with his replacement in Griffith.]

    Isn’t he building an robot clone army to take over the world?

  179. daretotread

    Zoomster

    From my memory of reading the HC decision at least one judge commented on the fact that even the MOU was not binding. For example if the Malaysian government had committed to an MOU which protected the rights of the refugees one at least and possibly more of the HC judges would have treated it as a binding contractual obligation and may have been more willing to deem the agreement legal.

  180. CTar1

    Jackol

    [ have to say I agree with Boerwar on wtf does Judeo-Christian values mean?]

    I’m not confused on this.

    Do the right thing.

  181. Yesiree Bob

    WOW !!
    Article on the news showed a young lass who was riddled with cancer.
    Her parents started to administer cannabis extract. The young kid is now expected to make a full recovery and be cancer free within weeks

  182. ruawake

    daretotread

    The HC was stating why the Immigration Act did not allow the Minister to do what he wanted. The fault was in the legislation, it could have easily been drafted properly and no problem would exist.

    Except it was a minority Govt.

    If Abbott is now sending people to Indonesia, surely he the HC will be able to tell him to stop, if only someone knew about it. (This is why it is all so secret).

  183. Acerbic Conehead

    WWP,

    [Good to see Kev campaigning with his replacement in Griffith.

    Isn’t he building an robot clone army to take over the world?]

    Isn’t that Tony Abbott you’re thinking of? Didn’t he declare war on somebody or other today?

  184. Yesiree Bob

    AC, a cloned army of Abbotts ?

    A spine chilling thought

  185. daretotread

    Zoomster

    I agree they signed something but I hesitate to call it an agreement, since one party namely Malaysia specifically said in was not binding.

    I do not call that an agreement, I call it a warm inner glow or perhaps an expression of hope.

    To be more precise what was singed was an agreement from Australia and a vague intent and hope by Malaysia.

    Zoomster

    I am in email contact with some very nice gentlemen in Nigeria. They have some interesting offers for you which may be to your financial advantage. Shall I send them your details?

  186. Boerwar

    AC

    [Boerwar,

    Whatever happened to our dear old Graeco-Romano heritage?

    I’ll have to wrestle with that before I get back to you.]

    *laughs*

    CTaR1

    [Do the right thing]

    *laughs* some more.

  187. Acerbic Conehead

    YB,

    [AC, a cloned army of Abbotts ?

    A spine chilling thought]

    Have no fear. They’d be so much like Angry of Mayfair, they’d give each other (and themselves) uppercuts.

  188. AussieAchmed

    Acerbic Conehead

    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    WWP,

    Good to see Kev campaigning with his replacement in Griffith.

    Isn’t he building an robot clone army to take over the world?

    Isn’t that Tony Abbott you’re thinking of? Didn’t he declare war on somebody or other today?
    ==========================================

    Its Tony’s War against unarmed men, women and children in leaky wooden boats desperate to escape regressive regimes.

    Perhaps the best way to deter them would be to have them read a link about Tony Abbott and his war against the low paid, unemployed, disabled and sick in Australia

  189. Asha Leu

    @zoomster 3393

    [Nonsense – in this case, we have a wealth of evidence to strongly suggest that the majority of Greens voters would vote Labor if the Greens didn’t exist.

    Greens voters, for example, are less likely than voters for any other party to follow a HTV card – yet consistently, 80% of those who vote Green first, vote Labor second.

    In other words, 80% of Green voters would vote Labor first if the Greens didn’t exist.

    I’ve heard people handing out Green HTV cards saying to voters, “Voting Greens makes your vote count twice. It gets counted for the Greens, and then it gets counted for Labor.”

    It’s not a wild and woolly theory pulled out of a hat. It’s backed by evidence]

    Oh, I agree – though with the caveat that if the Greens didn’t exist, there would be another left-leaning party where many would be parking their votes. Perhaps something like a mix of people voting Democrat (whose demise is in part a result of the rise of the Greens), Sex Party (whose inability to get much traction arguably is a result of basically being Greens-lite), some environment based party, and of course Labor.

    In terms of preferences, most of the voters being Labor-leaning would probably add up to a similar result – though a mix of different completing left-of-centre parties with different preference deals may mean that preferences don’t go as much in Labor’s favour.

    @Zoomster 3407

    […you will also note that I said the Greens might continue to thrive if they readjust – and most Greens parties which flourish overseas have undergone exactly the kind of readjustment I’m thinking about.

    Basically, my understanding is that Greens parties who found themselves in power have to decide whether to remain morally pure or to make compromises in order to govern effectively.

    This means a split in the party, with those who accept the latter course generally triumphant.

    If the Australian Greens remains consistent to the frans of this world, they will diminish in power and influence (and I know fran would be perfectly comfortable with that). If they reject the frans of this world for a more middle stream attitude to power and politics, they will thrive (but the frans of this world will leave them).]

    Agree with this too, for the most part. I think the party could do with shifting a bit closer to the centre and becoming a broader church of sorts.

    Getting rid of those nutters infecting the NSW branches would be a good start.

  190. zoomster

    dtt

    most people, when they’ve made an honest mistake, own up to it.

    Not you.

  191. poroti

    Yesiree Bob

    [AC, a cloned army of Abbotts ?

    A spine chilling thought]

    Relax. We have already seen them . Nothing to fear. 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4q6eaLn2mY

  192. Acerbic Conehead

    AA,

    [Its Tony’s War against unarmed men, women and children in leaky wooden boats desperate to escape regressive regimes.

    Perhaps the best way to deter them would be to have them read a link about Tony Abbott and his war against the low paid, unemployed, disabled and sick in Australia]

    Well said. I’m not going to hold my breath however for those links to be highlighted in the sort of MSM we have. Many journalists and commentators have taken Tones at his word and fallen for the “no surprises” cool aid.

  193. pom

    I see the life boats are on the way home:)

    See the current position of the vessel “OCEAN PROTECTOR” if it is within the range of the system…

    http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/home?mmsi=503630000&zoom=10

  194. mexicanbeemer

    While we are discussing the importance of the Greens vote if Psephos is around i notice that the ALP in Melbourne Ports won both the Domain (South Yarra) and Southbank booths.

    I will curious to know if the Greens didn’t exist would the ALP still be able to win those booths or has the demographic move towards the Liberals in those sorts of areas been overstated.

  195. AussieAchmed

    Guess what? Abbott was lying – again!! What a disgrace he is. he should be removed!! AND SOON…

    The national curriculum for history has been politicised [under Labor]. Tony Abbott on Monday, September 2, 2013 in the National Press Club

    PolitiFact could not find evidence of “politicising” of the national history curriculum. The Coalition’s examples are taken from one part of the curriculum, the years to year 10. However, the current version of the national curriculum, both the junior and senior sections, contains references to politicians of many political flavours and was established with the agreement of all governments from both sides of politics in Australia.

    The curriculum is a guide for teachers and concentrates on building student capabilities. The teachers on the ground will choose the political and other people to study, depending on the topic.

    The lead writer of the history curriculum says claims of politicisation are absurd. Additionally, senior conservative figures such as Robert Menzies and ideas such as capitalism are referenced. John Curtin is not the only prime minister mentioned as an example. There is no evidence that the “day-to-day activities of trade unions” will be studied. The “progressive movements” topic in Year 10 includes ideas such as capitalism and nationalism.

    We rate this claim as False.

  196. daretotread

    RUA

    Now this is where we diverge.

    The clauses that stopped the Malaysian deal were put in at the insistence of good hearted LIBERALS like Broadbent, Moylan and Georgio, specifically to rotect refugees. In tha absence of any clear committmenat from the host country to protect the regfugees, there was a risk that Australia could be sending them to their death or exploitation.

    I had no problem with sending refugees to Malaysia so long as it was certain that they would NOT be sent back to country of origin, that they would have food, shelter and basic medical care and that the children, especially the girls would not find themselves in the hands of sexual predators.

    My problem was that the Malaysian government seemed unwilling to make these basic commitments. I would have been willing to overlook things like education or even use of Malaysian penalties such as flogging, but actual survival is in may view non negotiable.

  197. CTar1

    AA

    [ Abbott was lying ]

    Is this new?

  198. Acerbic Conehead

    Poroti,

    [Relax. We have already seen them . Nothing to fear]

    Are you sure? They don’t seem to be wearing fluro vests.

  199. mexicanbeemer

    I suspect if the Greens didn’t exist the ALP would be more left wing as many of the ALP left who went to the Greens would have remained, many in the ALP right would have shifted to the Liberal Party bringing it back towards the centre.

    In the inner city the Greens have been successful at replacing the ALP in traditionally Green booths, East Melbourne is one such booth.

    As the Greens membership expands it will gradually move towards better economic policies, we saw this start to happen at the last election with several positive small business policies.

    This may cause the Greens to become more Liberal although Greens would most likely already claim that they are truly Liberal.

  200. AussieAchmed

    Not only is Abbott an inept lying excuse for a PM his arrogance in believing that people are so stupid that they will not fact check him is beyond belief.

    He lies every time he opens his mouth.

    The problem in Australia is the lack of mainstream media and journalists with the fortitude, courage or ethics to expose him.

  201. Jackol

    Well if you are going to do a review of the curriculum to “depoliticize” it, with a Liberal party staffer as one of the key people to do this “depoliticization”, why not lie about the fact that the curriculum was politicized in the first place? In for a penny, as they say.

  202. CTar1

    AA @ 3461 – Right on.

  203. poroti

    Jackol

    Not to mention both of the bustards are/were regular contributors to the Dirty Diggers’ GG. Pure coincidence I am sure.

  204. Acerbic Conehead

    Poroti,

    Definitely my last thoughts on this matter, but do you think those Tony Abbott mad monk clones wear budgie smugglers under their robes, or are they like Scotsmen?

    Hope you’re not having your dinner btw.

  205. AussieAchmed

    No doubt the rusted “righties” will come out with the diatribe that Politifact is the ABC which is a left wing cesspool.

    Stupidly and totally ignoring the last 4-6 years of ABC anti-Labor Govt rhetoric.

    Branding the ABC left wing is the rusted on stupid right/tea party following the Orwellian principle. Lie about it often enough and long enough it becomes the new “truth”. It should be recognised for what it is

  206. ruawake

    My brain cell has figured out why the Libs don’t like the History Curriculum. It is intended to teach kids about important events.

    The Libs know they dont do important they only do mediocre and thus will be ignored.

  207. mexicanbeemer

    History is a great subject as it can lead to so many interesting topics

    Architecture
    Art
    Science
    Music
    Fashion & Design
    Cultural awareness
    Language
    Economics
    Literature
    Politics
    etc

    A great education is diverse

  208. zoidlord

    @MB/3468

    Liberals will say that is a fashion statement.

  209. Jackol

    AA – Politifact was not the ABC’s version. It was sort of an offshoot of the successful American version, and was sponsored by Channel 7 in 2013 in anticipation of the election.

    Post-election it has lost its funding and has basically shut down as I understand it, although its findings will still be available online and archived by the National Library.

    I think the implication is that if anyone wants to give them money they can start up again, but for now they have no funds.

  210. zoomster

    dtt

    which is why Australia guaranteed to ensure all those things were provided.

  211. CTar1

    AA

    [Branding the ABC}

    Brandising is about right.

  212. mexicanbeemer

    Zoidy

    🙂

  213. AussieAchmed

    From Twitter

    .I wonder if @TonyAbbottMHR realizes that by giving asylum seekers & their newborns numbers he is doing exactly what Hitler did to the Jews

    being retweeted lots

  214. mexicanbeemer

    These people do have names don’t they.

    Clearly this raises a question about the culture of this government.

  215. Yesiree Bob

    Changing the curriculum, pushing an ‘approved’ history.
    That’s the sorta thing that two-bit fascist states do, not modern, cosmopolitan, democracies.

  216. dave

    [ Jackol
    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    I, for one, value Zoomster’s posts – even when she is pointlessly debating that waste of bandwidth Mod Lib.

    I certainly value Zoomster’s contributions a lot more than I have ever valued a post from you, MTBW.

    And if you don’t want to be pinged on this, stop posting the holier-than-thou crap such as that quoted above. ]

    Yes, well said.

    The Zoomster is one of the best posters here.

    Keep up the great work Z – you are laying them in the aisles.

  217. mexicanbeemer

    But history is history, as Simon Schama has said it is about people and places.

  218. AussieAchmed

    Jackol

    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    AA – Politifact was not the ABC’s version. It was sort of an offshoot of the successful American version, and was sponsored by Channel 7 in 2013 in anticipation of the election.
    ——-
    You are right I mixed the two names up

  219. CTar1

    [You are right I mixed the two names up]

    Should it have been folly pact ?

  220. Asha Leu

    My experiences of learning history at school are a bit of date – I finished primary school in 2000, and did little in the way of SOSE-type subjects in High School – but I remember it being almost entirety about post-Botony Bay, pre-Federation Aussie history, with a smidgeon of WW1 and WW2 thrown in there. It was all the Gold rush, Burke and Wills and their fellow explorers/astonishingly stupid deathseekers, the Eureka stockade, Burke and Wills, various conflicts between convicts and those in charge of the convicts, and of course good old Burke and Wills. I know a lot about Burke and Wills.

    I don’t know if that meant the history curriculum was skewed to the left or the right, but it certainly was skewed towards a lot of rather boring tales of foolish rich explorers discovering exciting new ways to starve to death in the desert (or rainforest).

  221. poroti

    Asha Leu

    You callow youth spring chicken you 🙂 !!!

  222. mexicanbeemer

    Asha Leu

    Sounds similar to mind yet an era which i think is very interesting and important to the development of this country politically, economically, socially was the Melbourne Landboom and bust is nearly totally missing.

  223. AussieAchmed

    Yesiree Bob

    Posted Saturday, January 11, 2014 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Changing the curriculum, pushing an ‘approved’ history.
    That’s the sorta thing that two-bit fascist states do, not modern, cosmopolitan, democracies.
    ===================================

    Well lets examine the signs of Fascism

    Nationalism – Y
    Disdain for human rights – Y
    Identify an enemy to provide a unifying cause – Y
    Rampant sexism – Y
    Controlled media – Y media controlled Govt?
    Obsession with national security – Y
    Religion and Government intertwined – Y
    Corporate power protected – Y
    Workers suppressed – TRYING
    Disdain for the Arts and intellectuals – working on it
    Obsession with crime and punishment – Y
    Fraudulent elections – N

    Tick them off and see where Abbott and Newman are going

  224. CTar1

    Asha

    Up and over the Blue Mountains …

  225. ruawake

    The Politifact story should be, we looked the the Liberal Party policy document on a national curriculum and found out it was crap.

    When we tried to find why no media outlet had discovered this error, the answer was “we are crap”.

  226. rossmcg

    Asha

    You can never know too much about Burke and wills. Great story of class warfare, incompetent management, and gross stupidity. Bit like now really.

  227. mexicanbeemer

    Another part of history which may have changed if not it fixing, in regards to Aboriginals the focus is very much on the tribal groups from norther Australia yet the local tribal groups appear overlooked.

  228. Asha Leu

    @poroti

    [You callow youth spring chicken you 🙂 !!!]

    If it makes you feel any better, my hair is receding faster than my 60 year old father’s is, and will probably look John Howard-esque by the time I’m in my thirties. (John Howard as PM that is, not John Howard the treasurer!)

  229. zoidlord

    I can see where Cori get’s his view from:

    http://www.news.com.au/national/tea-party-to-whip-up-a-political-storm/story-fncynjr2-1226537489379

    “CANdo, a group created by Liberal firebrand Cory Bernardi and loosely modelled on the right-wing faction of the US Republican Party, also claims gay marriage could lead to Muslim polygamy.”

    Liberals been infiltrated by Tea Party.

    Interestingly: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=1485

    &

    http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/miaesr/events/conferences/school/Presentations/Session%202/Donnelly,%20Kevin_161107.pdf

    Can anyone confirm is the same Dr Kevin Donnelly chief of staff?

  230. ruawake

    Asha Leu

    When I went to school there were two history subjects, Ancient History (Greek, Romans, Persian impaling etc) and Modern History. ( 1066, Kings and Queens Cromwell, Civil War, Industrial Revolution, Unions, Brunel, Trains, Wars, Tanks, Planes more wars.)

    Bet Pyne wants to go back to reciting dates, seeing he likes playing with his own.

  231. mexicanbeemer

    According to Simon Schama reciting dates is not how history should be taught but it should focus on the people and the events and how the people interacted.

    He dismissed reciting dates as “boring”

  232. CTar1

    I had a teacher of Geography in Form 5 ‘Geoff’.

    He was good, except he had a thing about the Great Dividing Range.

    Standard practice in his class if some one said it was a class room chant:

    “They’re not great, they don’t divide and they’re only foot hills”.

  233. poroti

    Asha Leu

    As a fellow sufferer of such a fate you have my commiserations 🙂 Oh and solidarity 🙂

  234. ruawake

    When I arrived in Australia I realised I could dump History and do two unit maths, BLISS.

  235. mexicanbeemer

    If Pyne is hung up on history maybe he will have a RC to work out what happened to the boys in the tower and who did it?

    Maybe its Pyne’s purpose to discover the truth.

  236. AussieAchmed

    Palmer knows his place when parking – mentally disabled???

    Or does being a big fat right wing politician rate as disabled?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdrVNJjCEAAwoDV.jpg

  237. confessions

    When I was in high school (years 7- 10 in the ACT) history consisted of WW1 and WW2 and that was pretty much it.

    When I completed year 12 in Perth I studied ancient history as an elective in Year 11, and was disappointed that it was all ancient Rome and nothing about indigenous Australia.

    Consequently I chose law for my elective in Year 12.

  238. ruawake

    Asha Leu

    Male pattern baldness is a sign of testosterone, embrace it. 🙂

  239. zoomster

    Burke was stationed near here as a policeman. Even then, he was famous locally for getting lost!

  240. rossmcg

    ASha

    Just look at some Tories for advice on how to cultivate combover. Maurice Newman is a good starting point.

  241. CTar1

    ‘fess

    [Consequently I chose law for my elective in Year 12.]

    As part-time student my boss ‘suggested’ Law at very nearby Kings College, London. I made it just.

    Last year at a dinner event he said in a grumpy way “If I’d known you’d still be around I would have recommended Economics”.

    FMD!

  242. daretotread

    Zoomster

    Australia made a commitment for 5 years or so, but without the strong and enthusiastic involvement of the Malaysian government these sort of agreements rapidly lose their status.

    That is why legislative committment or some sort of binding agreement was needed. Something that made it clear that after 5 years or so the people would not be abamdoned anmd lost. The sort of scenario that i feared are these:
    1. Australia honors its part of the bargain and makes sure that say a girl of 11 is educated until she is 16. Perhaps her family dies or has no employment so she is falls victim to the sex trade.
    2. A boy at 16 may get into minor trouble, spend some time in jail and is then deported.
    3.An adult may start to take an interest in political affairs and is deported home and even executed.

    The point is that under the “agreement” Australia lost any control or involvement with adults at all and just with children until 16. They may have had some commitment to medical care I am not sure, but certainly no commitment to provide shelter, food or employment. The reality is that after 5 years in Malaysia with no work many will have died, turned to crime or for girls to sex work.

    There was no long term Australian involvement in providing consular or emergency support for these people or even for keeping details on the whereabouts after being deposited in Malaysia. Now MALAYSIAN commitment to ensure that the refugees had food, shelter medical care and non refoulment, would have allowed Australia to hand over responsibility with a clear conscience. Without this commitment frankly the deal was a no goer.

  243. confessions

    [The Piping Shrike ‏@Piping_Shrike 3h
    Chris Pyne is right. Our kids spend too much time spouting off Hindu and Muslim values, and not enough time on Judeo-Christian ones.]

    I’m assuming we are still in the dark about just what judeo-christian values are.

  244. Asha Leu

    @rossmcg

    When undertaking a long, arduous expedition into unexplored and unhospital lands, make sure you remember to bring all the essentials… like a gigantic chinese gong, antique furniture, and three wagons worth of salted meat. And if someone you don’t get along with offers to help you out by shipping much of your equipment up the Murray Darling for you, its prudent to refuse their offer – having to take it all yourself is a worthwhile cost for the opportunity to slight a rival.

    I mean, what’s the worst that could happen?

  245. confessions

    CTar:

    😆

    That’s mentoring for you!

  246. Steve777

    Re Jackol @3470 – I don’t think that Politifact will be getting its funding back any time soon. The last thing a Mendocracy wants or needs is facts, other than those it makes up.

  247. poroti

    CTar1

    [“If I’d known you’d still be around I would have recommended Economics”.]
    If only we could hear the chap’s accent 😆

  248. rossmcg

    Asha

    Those lessons on Burke and wills weren’t wasted. You are a full bottle.

  249. zoomster

    dtt

    most of your scenarios could apply to people who ended up settled in Australia, too, particularly if they had not taken out Australian citizenship.

    Arguing about what might have happened to refugees settled in Malaysia under the deal is a bit pointless, since it’s all hypothetical. I could equally put up scenarios where every single refugee ended up living in bliss. We simply don’t know what problems/benefits would have unfolded over time.

    I have no doubt that some of the arrangements were less than ideal. However, neither is the present situation. The Malaysian solution – or something similar to it – still seems to me to be the best way forward.

  250. Asha Leu

    [Just look at some Tories for advice on how to cultivate combover. Maurice Newman is a good starting point]

    I rather favour the shave it all off approach, myself (with a bushy beard to compensate). I’ve seen twenty-something guys with combovers… its, er, not a great look.

    There was a poor guy I used to work with who had obviously had long-ish hair for some time and was clearly in denial of his receding hairline. Over several years he went from a reasonably normal looking guy to that creepy old guy from the Rocky Horror Picture Show… expect he still had some hair at the front, which meant there was a gigantic lock of hair hanging from his forehead that he tried to comb back with the rest of his hair.

    There was also a former boss of mine who favoured the Donald Trump do. An interesting look on someone in their early thirties!

  251. zoomster

    Asha

    didn’t they drag a couple of truly ridiculous items with them? – I have memories of something like a piano.

    Another set of explorers took a boat with them for the entire trip. As they were heading into the desert, they never used it.

  252. don

    ruawake@3499

    Asha Leu

    Male pattern baldness is a sign of testosterone, embrace it.

    “>ruawake@3499

    Asha Leu

    Male pattern baldness is a sign of testosterone, embrace it.

    ruawake@3499

    Asha Leu

    Male pattern baldness is a sign of testosterone, embrace it.

    That is a furphy. Baldness has nothing to do with high levels of testosterone, except that it is mostly a male thing.

    There was a study done very recently on this.

  253. confessions

    don:

    I think rua was trying to bolster Asha’s self esteem with some humour.

  254. poroti

    don

    Male pattern baldness actually creates a solar panel for a sex machine. Or so they say 🙂

  255. Asha Leu

    @zoomster 3512

    It wouldn’t surprise me.

    Then there was Kennedy, name-sake of Katter’s electorate, who ventured throuh the Queensland rainforests with many wagons full of the most fashionable and expensive garments of the time, which he and his team must have been very thankful during an agonisingly slow journey consisting of cutting their way through thick jungle (so their huge convoy could get through, you see…) interspersed with brief interludes of getting killed by local indigenous tribes.

    At least I think it was Kennedy. I know it was one of the explorers my high school sports teams were named after, the others being Leichardt and Jardine.

  256. don

    poroti@3515

    don

    Male pattern baldness actually creates a solar panel for a sex machine. Or so they say

    ‘they’ being those who have gone bald!

    Women rarely go really bald, but a significant percentage get noticeable thinning of the hair.

  257. poroti

    don

    I made no claim of non bias for such a claim 🙂

  258. CTar1

    poroti/’fess

    [If only we could hear the chap’s accent ]

    Over there Robin Butler didn’t have an accent ….

  259. poroti

    CTar1

    Would that be Baron Butler of Brockwell ? Lurve the alliteration .

  260. ruawake

    [That is a furphy. Baldness has nothing to do with high levels of testosterone, except that it is mostly a male thing.]

    Don as usual you are wrong. I have recently started to take testosterone supplements. One of the side effects is hair growth, I have noticed this, except in the male pattern baldness areas.

    I mentioned this to my GP and he said that testosterone levels are the cause of male pattern baldness but supplementation will not reverse the change. This is because the “damage” is done too early.

    [ Below normal values of Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), Follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone and epitestosterone are present in men with premature androgenic alopecia compared to normal controls.]

    Facts. 😛

  261. ruawake

    Too add to the myth.

    [The role of testosterone in premature balding has led to the myth that going bald is a sign of virility. However, men with male pattern baldness aren’t any more well-endowed with testosterone than other guys. Their hair follicles are simply more sensitive to the hormones.]

  262. BK

    [Palmer knows his place when parking – mentally disabled???

    Or does being a big fat right wing politician rate as disabled?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdrVNJjCEAAwoDV.jpg ]
    AA
    What a shithead!!

  263. don

    ruawake@3521


    That is a furphy. Baldness has nothing to do with high levels of testosterone, except that it is mostly a male thing.


    Don as usual you are wrong. I have recently started to take testosterone supplements. One of the side effects is hair growth, I have noticed this, except in the male pattern baldness areas.

    I mentioned this to my GP and he said that testosterone levels are the cause of male pattern baldness but supplementation will not reverse the change. This is because the “damage” is done too early.


    Below normal values of Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), Follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone and epitestosterone are present in men with premature androgenic alopecia compared to normal controls.


    Facts.

    Nope. You and your doctor are wrong. It’s much more complicated than that.

    Men who are castrated early (eunuchs) don’t get male pattern baldness, that is true.

    But it is a derivative of testosterone, called dihydrotestosterone or DHT which causes male pattern baldness.

    [ The genetic influence in pattern baldness, on the other hand, causes hair follicles on the front, top and crown of the head to end up different from those on the sides. What makes them different is that they carry receptors susceptible to DHT, the chemical made by the body from testosterone from around puberty.

    DHT alters the growing cycle of hair. Silken tresses normally result from a long growing phase – two years or more – followed by a short resting phase. But DHT gradually reverses this cycle until eventually the resting period is so long that there’s no new hair coming through to replace the 100 to 150 hairs we lose daily as part of natural shedding.

    The same genetic pattern occurs in women, but because they have smaller amounts of testosterone, which for much of their lives is buffered by female hormones, pattern balding only starts to occur after the menopause. And, since DHT works by persistent attrition over time, this late start means women generally only experience thinning hair as they grow older and rarely get bald spots. Taking HRT with its boost of female hormones can postpone it even further.

    Only scalp hair can be affected by DHT; body hair is controlled by testosterone itself. And the hair follicles on the sides and back of the head never acquire the DHT receptor, hence the success of surgery which transplants hair follicles from these areas to bare spots on the crown. ]

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/science-why-eunuchs-dont-wear-toupees-1151862.html

    Few people would say that it is an excess of testosterone that causes baldness in women.

  264. confessions

    Looks like the whole of the south of WA is on a total fire ban for tomorrow, with much of the Wheatbelt on catastrophic fire warnings.

  265. rossmcg

    Aaha rua et al
    I dont know about testosterone but most of the males in my family on my fathers side are bald … My father grandfather and brother, my uncle and his sons …. My maternal grandfather died in his 70s with a full head of hair and I am looking good, grey but it’s all there. I dunno whether it’s testosterone or genes and having or not having hair doesn’t make you a better or worse person.

  266. don

    Here’s another myth buster:

    http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair-loss/faq-myths-more/hair-loss-myths/

    [ Myth #2
    Men who are bald have high levels of testosterone.

    Fact: This myth falls into the same category as the “size of a man’s hands or feet…” Hair loss is caused by a greater sensitivity of hair follicles in some parts of the scalp to DHT (dihydrotestosterone), rather than to increased levels of testosterone per se. DHT causes the hair follicles to shrink (miniaturize) and eventually disappear. If elevated levels of testosterone were the problem, then “all” of ones body hair should be expected to fall out as well.
    ]

  267. CTar1

    poroti

    The same.

    They all become ‘Lord’ if they can make it to the top..

    Even Gus who went from being Gus O’Donell to Sir (GoD) to Lord O’Donnell (LoD).

    LoD works well with me,

  268. ruawake

    don

    If you care to read what I stated about testosterone, I purposely did not mention a level. Plus where the fuck does DHT (androstanolone) come from outer space.

    I was making a lighthearted comment and you try and prove you know jack shit.

    Stick to rocks.

  269. mexicanbeemer

    Where is Pine-oSean

    Further evidence that growing wages is a good thing

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/weak_wages_growth_blows_hole_in_leOPTLQX6ZqVliIXMsxyQK

  270. bemused

    rossmcg@3526

    Aaha rua et al
    I dont know about testosterone but most of the males in my family on my fathers side are bald … My father grandfather and brother, my uncle and his sons …. My maternal grandfather died in his 70s with a full head of hair and I am looking good, grey but it’s all there. I dunno whether it’s testosterone or genes and having or not having hair doesn’t make you a better or worse person.

    As with most hereditary traits, it is a matter of choosing your parents wisely. 😛

  271. confessions

    Speaking of testosterone:

    [A WA study has found older men with high levels of testosterone may be just as vulnerable to health problems as those with a deficiency.

    Researchers from the University of WA measured the testosterone in almost four thousand men aged between 70 and 89.

    They monitored men’s health over a long period, finding those with mid-range levels of testosterone had the best survival rate.]
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-11/men-study/5195526?section=wa

  272. virtualkat

    Being gen x and never having much interest in Aus history I must say I have learned a lot about it today from PB. No need for curriculum changes just direct the young-uns to PB. But seriously who cares, there r a million ways to get information about history if u r interested. If u r not then it will b in one ear out the other, if engaged then will do ur own research. Currently I would settle for people on this country understanding what is happening in the present.

  273. DisplayName

    vk
    [Currently I would settle for people on this country understanding what is happening in the present.]
    That may require knowing some history ;).

  274. confessions

    School curriculum is just the latest culture war pinata for Australian reactionaries which they’ll keep on beating until it gives them the results they want. Screw the national interest. It’s always been up to Labor govts to govern in the national interest.

  275. virtualkat

    Dp, yeah of course!

    And a bit more science knowledge wouldn’t go astray either….

  276. bemused

    virtualkat@3533

    Being gen x and never having much interest in Aus history I must say I have learned a lot about it today from PB. No need for curriculum changes just direct the young-uns to PB. But seriously who cares, there r a million ways to get information about history if u r interested. If u r not then it will b in one ear out the other, if engaged then will do ur own research. Currently I would settle for people on this country understanding what is happening in the present.

    My late Primary School textbook in the 1950s (as I remember it anyway) was a treasure trove of wondrous (to me) stories about European and Australian history.

    It had stories about Vasco da Gama, Columbsu, Magellan, Dirk Hartog, and other Dutch and Portugese navigators.
    We covered North American history, Canada and the US, War of Independence, British taking Canada from the French, Civil war, emancipation of slaves etc.

    We went all over the Australian explorers. WWI and touched on WWII which was not really far enough in the past to seem like history. Kokoda is about all I remember.

    I was entranced by it.

    Later in my first couple of years of High School we studied ancient history, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Alexander the Great and Rome.

    My impression is that history, as taught these days just does not cover such a broad sweep, although it may have other virtues.

    I truly enjoyed history at school.

  277. virtualkat

    We did lots on Egypt, Romans and Greece. I guess that’s the sexy history stuff! Compared to all of that failed expeditions in a desert didn’t really compare. I don’t remember much on ww1 or 2 or much in Asia or the US (this was Vic in the 90’s). Anyway I was obsessed with the reneisance so did most of my own exploring in that period.

  278. victoria

    Just spent a couple of great hours with @terrimbutler our candidate for Griffith. Fantastic response to Terri. KRudd pic.twitter.com/4YDpzOyfeQ
    https://mobile.twitter.com/MrKRudd/status/421894590317080576/photo/1

  279. frednk

    The sad thing is, this is Australia he is talking about, boy these clowns are doing some damage.

    [
    Malcolm Fraser ‏@MalcolmFraser12 6m

    Does Gov care two hoots about international law? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/11/towbacks-may-breach-international-law-un-refugee-agency-cautions-abbott
    ]

  280. bemused

    victoria@3539

    Just spent a couple of great hours with @terrimbutler our candidate for Griffith. Fantastic response to Terri. KRudd pic.twitter.com/4YDpzOyfeQ
    https://mobile.twitter.com/MrKRudd/status/421894590317080576/photo/1

    What a great Labor man Kev is!

  281. deblonay

    PIC OF ONE OF THE 3 NEW HI-SPEED TRAINS BUILT FOR THE MOSCOW-SOCHI ROUTE AND NOW IN OPERATION FOR THE FORTHCOMING WINTER GAMES
    BRILLIANT

    http://www.russiantrains.com/en/page/moscow-sochi-train

  282. bemused

    Hi deblonay.

    I didn’t see your message last night until this morning and responded then. Did you see it?

  283. zoidlord

    @frednk/3540

    That didn’t take long.

    But not surprised, Howard did the same thing.

    UNHCR needs to push harder.

  284. Phil Vee

    AussieAchmed at 3456 said correctly that……
    The curriculum is a guide for teachers …………… The teachers on the ground will choose the political and other people to study, depending on the topic.

    And the teachers are the next ones in Pyne’s sights. He wants to take that power to choose away from teachers and give it to “parents and Principals”. He said “we have to end the system where teachers control everything and give that power to Principals”.

    Then he wants to change the qualifications required to be a teacher by “creating flexible pathways into teaching”. To get new and different people into teaching.
    While he is doing that he will also have “a relentless focus on the quality of new graduates” so the Libs can “control what our kids are taught and how they are taught”.

    I don’t know anything about teaching and recents posts on PB suggest that some reform is needed but this ideological stuff from the Libs is a worry. It sounds like old fashioned union busting to me as they transform schools into little businesses they can sell off.

  285. guytaur

    “@Telegraph: Just in: former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has died.”

  286. deblonay

    BEMUSED
    RE YOUR MESSAGE
    WELL SAID AND I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID

  287. bemused

    deblonay, in fairness I should point out her partial retraction which I didn’t see until after I wrote that response to you.

  288. deblonay

    Sharon Dead

    Good Riddance
    _______________
    Sharon was a long time dying…but at leastin the end he escaped trial for the war criminal he was

    He was the prime mover in the terrible massacres of Palestinians in Beirut during the civil war…by fascist Lebanese Phalangists christian militias

    The two refugee camps at Sabra and Shatilla were under Israeli supervision after their invasion of Lebanon,,,but they allowed the Fascist Lebanese to enter and murder Palestinians in great numbers Though much criticised even at home he survived as such Israeli leaders always seem to do

  289. guytaur

    deblonay

    I expect Abbott in his Eulogy to ignore all that.

    Goodnight

  290. deblonay

    More on Sharon and the Beirut Massacres
    ________________________
    From Princeton Univ USA..site the full story

    The Israeli transportyed the Lebanese killers to the camps and illuminated them by flares as the massacres took place under Sharons supervisi it seems
    Later an enguiry under Saen MCBride Irish F Minister found all this to be true

    Sharon was never punished and went on the be Israeli PM for many years

    Being a war criminal and murderer is no bar to high office in Israel it seems…so mnuch for democractic Isreli of which we sometimes hear

    http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre.html

  291. victoria

    [The education guru tasked with reforming Australia’s national curriculum by the federal government was previously employed by tobacco firm Phillip Morris to design a school program teaching children about peer pressure and decision making that did not discuss the health dangers of smoking]

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/new-curriculum-reviewer-was-an-education-consultant-to-tobacco-giant-phillip-morris-20140111-30nj8.html#ixzz2q5zB3ZXX

  292. zoidlord

    Are we expecting any polls this week? or is it next week?