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Federal Politics 2013-

Feb 24, 2014

Newspoll: 54-46 to Labor

As other pollsters find support for Labor trending downwards, Newspoll breaks ranks with the Abbott government's worst poll result since it came to power.

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The second Newspoll of the year is a wildly off-trend result that has no doubt made life difficult for a) whoever has been charged with writing up the results for The Australian, and b) anti-Murdoch conspiracy theorists. The poll has Labor leading 54-46, up from 51-49, which is the Coalition’s worst result from any poll since the election of the Abbott government. The primary votes are 39% for the Coalition (down two), 39% for Labor (up four) and 10% for the Greens (down two). Despite that, the personal ratings find Bill Shorten continuing to go backwards, his approval steady at 35% and disapproval up four to 39%. However, things are a good deal worse for Tony Abbott, who is down four to 36% and up seven to 52%. Abbott’s lead on preferred prime minister shrinks from 41-33 to 38-37.

Elsewhere in polldom:

Roy Morgan is more in line with the recent trend in having the Coalition up half a point on the primary vote to 41%, Labor down 1.5% to 35.5%, the Greens steady on 10.5%, and the Palmer United Party steady on 4.5%. Labor leads by 50.5-49.5 on both two-party preferred measures, compared with 52-48 on last fortnight’s respondent-allocated result and 51-49 on previous election preferences. The Morgan release also provides state breakdowns on two party preferred, showing the Coalition leading 52.5-47.5 in New South Wales and 55-45 in Western Australia, while Labor leads 54.5-45.5 in Victoria, 52-48 in Queensland, 53.5-46.5 in South Australia and 50.5-49.5 in Tasmania.

• The Australian National University has released results from its regular in-depth post-election Australian Election Study mailout survey, the most widely noted finding of which is that Tony Abbott scored the lowest rating of any election-winner going back to 1987. The survey asks respondents to rate leaders on a scale from zero to ten, with Abbott scoring a mean of 4.29 compared with 4.89 for Julia Gillard in 2010; 6.31 for Kevin Rudd in 2007; 5.73, 5.31, 5.56 and 5.71 for John Howard in 1996, 1998, 2001 and 2004 respectively; 4.74 for Paul Keating in 1993; and 6.22 and 5.46 for Bob Hawke in 1987 and 1990 respectively.

The Age reports that a poll of 1000 respondents by UMR Research, commissioned by the Australian Education Union, finds Malcolm Turnbull (a net rating of plus 12%) and Joe Hockey (plus 2%) to be rated more favourably than Tony Abbott (minus 8%).

UPDATE (Essential Research): The weekly Essential Research has Labor’s lead steady at 51-49, with the Coalition up a point on the primary vote to 42%, Labor down one to 39% and the Greens up one to 9%. Also featured: “government handling of issues”, showing neutral net ratings for the government’s best areas (economic management, asylum seekers, foreign relations) and strongly negative ones for welfare, service provision and industrial relations. Worst of the lost is “supporting Australian jobs”, at minus 19%. The existing renewable energy target is broadly supported (39% about right, 25% too low, 13% too high); opinion of Qantas has deteriorated over the past year (11% say they have come to feel more positive, 25% more negative), and there is support for the government buying a share of it or guaranteeing its loans; and opinion on government moves to crack down on illegal file sharing is evenly divided.

UPDATE 2: The West Australian reports that a Patterson Market Research survey conducted before last week’s High Court ruling from an undisclosed sample size suggests the micro-party vote would wither if a fresh Senate election was held. The poll has the Liberals on 45%, up six on its Senate vote at the election, Labor on 32%, up five, and the Greens on 12%, up three. The Palmer United Party collapses from 5% to 1%, with all others halving from 20% to 10%. However, one wonders how good polls are at capturing the sentiment that causes indifferent voters to plump for micro-parties at the last minute.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

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1845 comments

1,845 thoughts on “Newspoll: 54-46 to Labor

  1. mikehilliard

    I have no real time for Palmer but it seems obvious to me that the Libs have shut the door in his face. It’s an old boys club old man so there’s the door. :-p

  2. poroti

    confessions

    Because the 3 star lapdog who lay down with dogs and woke up with fleas is a classmate of Wilkie. Coincidence or do I sell you a harbour bridge ? Think mutual bastardisation stories they can swap.

  3. Rossmore

    Well, about bloody time ….

    @sspencer_63: Full bench of Federal Court to rule TOMORROW AFTERNOON IN SYDNEY on Ashby and Harmer appeal against Peter Slipper judgment.

    Will probably be drowned out by Qantas…

  4. confessions

    poroti:

    That would explain it.

    Btw, from some of the comments here and on twitter, it seemed as though Wilkie had co-written the motion with the Immigration Minister.

  5. dave

    So Senator Rolandson called General Gellispie a coward in Senate Estimates in 2007? Shorten said so in his speech today.

    Would be nice to find that in the transcript.

    Are Estimates Hearings also covered by Hansard?

  6. Steven Grant Haby

    Dee @ 1541

    Quite possibly. George Palmer also operated bus services in the Yarraville area and commenced Palmer’s Overland Tours in the late 1940s competing directly with VR and NSWGR on the ‘coastal run’ to Sydney

    More information here at http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=35511

    The above post mentions a David the son of George and Clive is another son. Would be interesting to have them give a talk on their dad re the post war years.

  7. zoomster

    fess

    I think it was pretty telling when Bronwyn Bishop read out her version of Wilkie’s motion, which was substantially different from his, and yet he didn’t challenge it.

    (Wilkie’s was around forcing Conroy to apologise – something I wouldn’t think the HoR could get someone in the Senate to do; Bishop’s was along the lines of condemnation).

  8. Bugler

    Diogenes,

    More likely not listening. People I know who vote PUP (who were quite honest about it, actually) just couldn’t stand the established parties. PUP just seemed like a credible alternative.

    That said, I really can’t see PUP lasting. Imagine what will happen when they actually have to do something. They have influence now, which diminishes their appeal.

  9. ruawake

    [Will probably be drowned out by Qantas…]

    Depends on the ruling by the Federal Court. But the Govt need good news and they are finding none. They can’t even manufacture a good ol Defence scare.

  10. poroti

    Steven Grant Haby

    My fave Dad’s Army clip.

    [Dad’s Army – Don’t Tell Him Pike ]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V3SqxUomwk

  11. Psephos

    [Shorten’s speech is on youtube. He was bloody good]

    I’m glad someone reminded Shorten about Ronaldson calling General Gillespie a coward in estimates a few years ago. I was there for that encounter, and it was a shameful performance.

  12. DisplayName

    Bugler, you’re talking parties, aren’t you? I’m referring to things such as being proportional, fptp or preferential or whatever.

    I can always google of course.

  13. Bugler

    DN,

    Ah, yes, of course.

    I did a few google searches and felt like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLvfnI7cbME

  14. Dee

    [Clive Palmer was born in Victoria and lived in Perry Street, Williamstown, where his father had a private movie theatre and used to invite his neighbours to watch the latest movies]

  15. ruawake

    If anyone wants a key for The Elder Scrolls Online beta this weekend, email me at ruawake@outlook.com

    First in gets it.

  16. Dee

    Steven

    How did you come across the bus line link?

  17. poroti

    ruawake

    Just thinking of you . Nearly half way there. Of course NBN would mean down already 🙁

  18. rossmcg

    I see napthine has a plan to ask people with holiday homes on the coast to make them available to people from morwell who need or wish to get away from the pollution caused by the coal mine fire.
    I dunno abt Victorians but this idea would be a lead balloon in WA.

  19. BH

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/mirabellas-high-
    hopes-for-indi,6218

    Zoomster@1508 My evil mind is wondering if Mirrabella is running tge Liberal Dirt Unit.

  20. dave

    Psephos – what was the context?

    Do you have a more precise date so that I can find the transcript?

  21. confessions

    zoomster:

    Yes, BBishop doesn’t even try to disguise her running protection for the govt as Speaker.

    As for Wilkie, the less I say what I think of him since he’s been in parliament the better!

  22. Steve777

    That was a good speech from Bill Shorten. Too bad only 150-odd people have seen the clip so far. I posted a link on another blog to maybe get a few more. Really telling was Bill Shorten’s calling the Opposition to show respect while he was praising General Campbell’s service to Australia. His remarks about patriotism being the refuge of scoundrels did make the ABC news.

  23. poroti

    Watching the Newspoll boss cocky on “Richo” . Must say I was very impressed with his disinterested opinions about recent polls and what they mean.

  24. zoidlord

    Retweeted by Essential Media
    ASU VIC PS ‏@ASU_Organise 11h

    @EssentialMedia_ Research shows a majority disapprove of increased foreign investment in Qantas #qantascuts http://essentialvision.com.au/government-support-for-qantas

  25. Psephos

    [Psephos – what was the context?

    Do you have a more precise date so that I can find the transcript?]

    It was over the presentation of a Unit Citation for Gallantry to Colonel Harry Smith’s unit for their deeds at Long Tan. Feeney became Parl Sec Defence in September 2010, so it must have been after that date, but I don’t remember exactly when.

  26. victoria

    poroti

    What did the Newspoll boss nave to say?

  27. Al Dente

    Holy crap that was a good speech from Shorten around 1.15-1.23 of the HoR daily feed today.

    Didn’t think he had it in him. Bravo.

  28. Al Dente

    …by which I mean to say 1 hour 15 minutes — 1 hour 23 minutes….it’s a long feed otherwise!!

  29. poroti

    victoria

    Not good for Abbottabad. Approval ratings for Shorten may have dropped but the numbers for Tone is more of a worry.

  30. Steven Grant Haby

    Dee @ 1561

    Am a bus, train and tram enthusiast. BusAustralia is one of many transport related blogs.

  31. Darren Laver

    Perhaps Bronwyn Bishop could be considered for Washington?

  32. DisplayName

    Bugler, google knows everything. Don’t try to convince me otherwise!

  33. mikehilliard

    I thought Shorten was beaut when he told Barnyard to shut up so we can just keep wondering about him. 😆

  34. Darren Laver

    Did the Shorten speach make the news in any way? Or did their ABC and others dutifully ignore it?

  35. dave

    Ta for that, its a starting point.

    The tories who come here can hardly deny it given you were there.

  36. Tricot

    Just watched the Shorten speech and it was full of passion – more than I thought he possessed.

    Apart from PB wonks it is likely to go unremarked and unreported.

    However, what was telling was how poor Bishop the Jnr was in her attack – spiteful, nasty and vindictive.

    Such was the mechanical nature of her delivery (and thereby reeking of insincerity) that many on her side were having private chats/jokes to one another, not paying attention and generally looking bored.

    What I do notice, like you notice with US Presidents when their hair turns white, that the bags under the FM’s eyes shows she is under a lot more pressure now than the time she was swanning around in one of her previous shadow portfolios.

  37. kezza2

    [confessions
    Posted Wednesday, February 26, 2014 at 8:26 pm | PERMALINK
    I must be in the minority in thinking that far from being a thorn in the govt’s side, PUP will just be an enabler of Abbott’s agenda.]

    I’m with you. PUP Palmer is a blowhard, and for all his bluster he’ll vote to line his own version of a patriotic pocket.

    And bugger the rest of Australia

  38. zoidlord

    Why has Pyne got a red face, and talking about Unions?

    His job is Education.

  39. poroti

    Psephos

    Long Tan, Vote 1 the kiwi artillery. ANZACs rule.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgSo8Dawl8

  40. BK

    [Why has Pyne got a red face, and talking about Unions?]
    All those sweaty men?

  41. Boerwar

    Not sure what the national language is but the following may help with acronyms:

    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9publique_d%C3%A9mocratique_de_Madagascar

  42. Darren Laver

    Pyne has long had a ruddy complexion. Too much hot air in Parliament House?

  43. Darren Laver

    Yes, using google/wikipedia in French will yield better results on Madagascar.

    English may dominate the world and internet, but there are still some pockets of the world where other languages still exist! ;-p

  44. zoidlord

    ..”are stopping the boat”? wtf?

  45. poroti

    BK

    Likes a bit of rough ? 😆

  46. confessions

    Darren L:

    I’d be surprised if any news outlets gave it any attention.

  47. Bugler

    Tricot,

    [However, what was telling was how poor Bishop the Jnr was in her attack – spiteful, nasty and vindictive.

    Such was the mechanical nature of her delivery (and thereby reeking of insincerity) that many on her side were having private chats/jokes to one another, not paying attention and generally looking bored.]

    I formerly had some amount of respect for Bishop, but after the AWU crap and what I saw on Micalef’s show last week on the croissants I can’t say there is any left (seriously, the “Shorten went to France” routine was far worse than I thought it was. Did she actually think people a) cared or b) would find her amusing?)

  48. Boerwar

    p
    Liked the lightning strike punchline.

  49. Steve777

    Hopefully people with blogs or who are on Twitter with lots of followers are sending out a link to Bill Shorten’s speech. It runs from 1:13:00 (one hour thirteen minuites) into the Youtube clip of today’s question Time) to about 1:23:00.

    The report on the ABC is emphasising the ‘offence’ cause dby Stephen Conroy’s remarks and downplaying Bill Shorten’s response.

  50. mikehilliard

    [Why has Pyne got a red face, and talking about Unions?

    His job is Education.]

    Attending to his portfolio requires thought & application, qualities that are profoundly lacking in the Poodle.

  51. zoidlord

    Also Coalition Party hypercrits on “carbon tax”….

    When they are going to cut Health, Education and other things.

  52. confessions

    kezza2:

    Most of the coalition’s agenda aligns with Palmer’s interests. He might take an opposing view on boat arrivals for eg, but that’d be about it I’d amazing.

  53. mikehilliard

    [I formerly had some amount of respect for Bishop]

    Was that before or after her legal support for the asbestos industry?

  54. jeffemu

    I’ll tell you what Darren Laver.. (and I might be wrong but I doubt it) ….. I have just this very moment watched the ABC 24 news here in Qld.

    There has been some handy editing going on with the report of what has happened in the House today.

    They have now showing in order Shortens reply PRIOR to Mesmas seconding of the motion and have cut out her calling Conroy, Shortens Dogs of War.

    When I watched a much earlier version of the coverage of QT they had Bishop J on first… then showed Shortens reply.

    But for sure the DOGS OF WAR has been conveniently removed from the news coverage.

  55. Bugler

    Daren Laver,

    Malheureusement, Wiki Francais fournit the meme information pour politique Malgache 🙁

  56. pedant

    confessions @ 1599: Some of my friends from Queensland say that Mr Palmer isn’t really interested in the culture war stuff that seems to be taking up so much of this government’s time and effort (much to its long term detriment, in my opinion). Can anyone here confirm or refute that assessment of him?

  57. Bugler

    mikehilliard,

    I can’t say I was aware at the time. At no stage I would have voted for her, though. I don’t really know the back-stories of most MPs, I might add.

  58. poroti

    Boerwar

    The GG published the official account of the battle at 25th (?) anniversary . The guy featured was the artillery forward observation guy. It was pissing it down and he directed traffic by sight and sound , even at night. Again and again there were accounts of how barrages fell mere meters from the Aussie lines and wiped out the mass attacks. Apparently only one Australian was injured by the 105’s barrages.
    Turns out the real hero was an old quartermaster. He had fought in Korea and remembered the human wave attacks. He insisted on having 3 times as many shells on hand as the book said. If he had not done so they would have run out way before help arrived.

  59. ShowsOn

    TUNA FISH
    TUNA FISH
    TUNA FISH

  60. Bugler

    Showson,

    Primary School taught me you have to name six different fish to break a jinx in six fish doorknob

  61. zoidlord

    Addiction to secrecy – Bill Shorten 2014.

  62. Boerwar

    p

    Ah, the reverse Isandlewana?

  63. mikehilliard

    Bugler

    No worries but IMO Bishop Jnr is a ….., well I’ve been moderated tonight already so won’t push my luck. 🙂

  64. victoria

    Poroti

    Thanks for feedback on pollster

  65. Boerwar

    p

    The second last funeral I attended was an F/O for 25 pounders in WW2 in North Africa and PNG. The interesting thing was that his kids and his grandkids had absolutely no idea what it meant or what he had gone through.

  66. Boerwar

    Why has PB gone all piscatorial?

  67. poroti

    ShowsOn

    Toga! Toga! Toga!

  68. Psephos

    [Pyne has long had a ruddy complexion.]

    Pyne has quite bad skin up close, red and blotchy, almost like he has shingles. His campaign photos are shamelessly photoshopped.

  69. mikehilliard

    [MARK COLVIN: Papua New Guinea’s deputy police commissioner says he’s cleared PNG police and Manus Island locals of responsibility for the death of an asylum seeker during last week’s unrest.]

    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s3952983.htm

  70. mari

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/haneef-lawyers-granted-250-documents/2008/06/17/1213468386298.html

    Is this the same Angus Campbell mentioned in this article working in JWH office who is now the tame 3 * general for Morrison?

  71. Labour of Love

    I am confused, was this in reference to Kate Ellis or Christopher Pyne?

  72. AussieAchmed

    Watched Shorten’s speech from today.

    Thought it was excellent.

    I miss the days of being able to sit and watch QT. Bloody work interferes with so many of lifes little enjoyments

  73. Boerwar

    mh

    That is a relief.

    I guess that the dead and injured impaled themselves senselessly and thoughtlessly on whatever killed or injured them.

  74. kezza2

    Re re-locating/evacuating Morwell

    Can’t imagine too many holiday-home-owners on the Bass Coast giving up their homes for the poor bastards smoke-affected by the fires in the open-cut at Morwell.

    Even though they just made an absolute killing when the de-sal construction was ongoing. They all think they can can get upwards of $400 a week, and that’s for most basic shack in an equally undistinguished cul-de-sac from Walkerville to Ventor. i.e. no sea views, and no home comforts.

    While it lasted, the construction of the de-sal plant almost afforded FIFO status. Not quite though. The workers were treated like kings, in fabulous free accommodation.

    Those were the days my friend . . .

  75. Psephos

    [MARK COLVIN: Papua New Guinea’s deputy police commissioner says he’s cleared PNG police and Manus Island locals of responsibility for the death of an asylum seeker during last week’s unrest.

    I guess that the dead and injured impaled themselves senselessly and thoughtlessly on whatever killed or injured them.]

    No, it means that G4S staff must have been responsible.

  76. bemused

    Psephos@1616


    Pyne has long had a ruddy complexion.


    Pyne has quite bad skin up close, red and blotchy, almost like he has shingles. His campaign photos are shamelessly photoshopped.

    I didn’t notice that on the one occasion I have been anywhere near him. Must have been wearing makeup to cover it.

  77. mikehilliard

    BW

    Yeah, PNG was hardly going to come out & say they did it.

    Questions is who did?

  78. pedant

    mari @ 1618: It’s the same Angus Campbell, but at that point he was Deputy National Security Adviser in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet. Working there is obviously not the same as working in the PM’s Office.

  79. poroti

    Boerwar

    They probably do not realise because he would be like my GG uncle and most other vets.
    Only in recent years have I realised the significance of what my Gallipoli + Palestine vet GG uncle said to 10 y.o. me when he took me aside at a family xmas do. It was the only time he ever “mentioned the war” and I still remember the serious tone of his voice. His advice ? “If there is ever another war don’t you be stupid enough to go.” . Good advice

  80. confessions

    [Pyne has quite bad skin up close, red and blotchy, almost like he has shingles. ]

    You can tell he has a skin problem from some of the vision of him in parliament. Some of the images taken really show the blotchy, red face.

  81. mikehilliard

    [No, it means that G4S staff must have been responsible.]

    So that means Morrison & Abbott.

    Stands to reason given that Rudd etc. killed all the pink batt installers & set fire to a thousand homes.

  82. milenko

    Today’s Question Time

    http://youtu.be/tK106o2-sKA

    Scroll to 1hr13 min for Bill Speaking with sincerity …. something Bishop will never understand

    ( sorry if already posted)

  83. dave

    BW – I’ve just finished “Tobruk” by Peter Fitzsimons.

    Not a bad book. 9th Division an important part of the first time Rommel and his tanks had even been stopped. The book recounts the Germans couldn’t understand why they didn’t surrender when the tanks were used against them.

    Australians on the perimeter with pom 25 pounders and some anti tank guns. An Indian division as well.

  84. kezza2

    [Psephos
    Posted Wednesday, February 26, 2014 at 9:34 pm | PERMALINK
    Pyne has long had a ruddy complexion.

    Pyne has quite bad skin up close, red and blotchy, almost like he has shingles. His campaign photos are shamelessly photoshopped.]

    Does complexion reflect ability? Didn’t think so.

    What a petty gossip.

    Oh, and regarding Morwelll would-be evacuees.

    When I say upwards of $400 a week for meagre premises, I mean that’s with a lease.

    A couple of nights a week will set you back about $300.

    Still, the liability lies somewhere. And it’s apparently with the poor old private sector. Just where all the jobs are, hey Hockey? Abbott?

    You can bet your boots the good old taxpayer will have to cough up for this situation. You know, the old Public-Private partnership syndrome where the taxpayer pays for the risk and the privateers pocket the shonky profits.

  85. confessions

    [Some of my friends from Queensland say that Mr Palmer isn’t really interested in the culture war stuff that seems to be taking up so much of this government’s time and effort ]

    Palmer has been quite vocal about embracing boat arrivals both before he was a federal candidate, and in the period since. I guess we’ll see whether the govt wants to push PUP on this once the new Senate is in place.

  86. Boerwar

    Psephos

    [No, it means that G4S staff must have been responsible.]

    I would be mildly surprised if only GS4 staff were involved but who knows? It is not as if we live in a transparent and accountable democracy.

    I predicted when Rudd brought this policy in that:

    (1) we would need to be build jails with cells rather than camps and,

    (2) resettlement in PNG was not realistic.

    I questioned whether Australians would have the stomach for the deaths, injuries, robberies and rapes consequent to the Manus Island ‘solution’ and resettlement in PNG. We have yet to get to the latter bit.

    With around 60% apparently believing that we are either being just as harsh as necessary or not harsh enough, my views about Australians in this matter were, without being pejorative about it one way or another, just plain wrong.

  87. Psephos

    [So that means Morrison & Abbott.

    Stands to reason given that Rudd etc. killed all the pink batt installers & set fire to a thousand homes.]

    Yes it does. If Morrison and Abbott are responsible for the actions of G4S staff on Manus, then Garrett and Rudd were responsible for the actions of whoever it was that caused the four deaths under the home insulation scheme. If you set that as your standard of ministerial responsibility, you have to accept it in both cases. (And why isn’t Burke responsible, since he hired G4S?)

  88. Boerwar

    dave

    Rommel did not have the appropriate resources, IMHO.

    The Australians were well dug in and had pillboxes. Leaving their prepared defences and doing a runner in the open would have been far more dangerous than sticking around. Extensive minefields were useful in channelling movement.

    All those things said, the Aussies did good.

  89. mari

    pedant
    Posted Wednesday, February 26, 2014 at 9:48 pm | PERMALINK
    mari @ 1618: It’s the same Angus Campbell, but at that point he was Deputy National Security Adviser in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet. Working there is obviously not the same as working in the PM’s Office.

    Thanks for that info

  90. outside left

    Poroti , toga toga toga ? An Alan Jones ‘special’ party?

  91. Jake

    Psephos,

    [No, it means that G4S staff must have been responsible.]

    Actually, it means very little to me, because PNG does not have a system of justice that is at all reliable.

    And, frankly, at least with respect to the deceased asylum seeker, nor does Australia.

  92. zoidlord

    @Psephos/1635

    Difference between that and this episode, is that G4S was directly hired, nobody was hired under Garrett and Rudd.

    So that takes your “standard of ministerial responsibility”…

  93. Bugler

    I don’t really see why the people responsible for actions aren’t responsible for their actions. Why drag ministers in for their peripheral involvement. If they condoned or mandated the actions directly or the actions leading to say, ignoring OH&S laws or reasonable use of force, that’s another matter, and one I don’t think applies to either case.

  94. mikehilliard

    [With around 60% apparently believing that we are either being just as harsh as necessary or not harsh enough, my views about Australians in this matter were, without being pejorative about it one way or another, just plain wrong.]

    Join the club BW.

  95. Diogenes

    [Difference between that and this episode, is that G4S was directly hired]

    by ALP Minister Burke

  96. Steven Grant Haby

    @ 1632

    Evac plans from what I have been told include the following options

    1. Stay with relatives outside ‘the zone’

    2. Stay with friends outside ‘the zone’

    3. Evac centres established in Sale, Bairnsdale, Warrigal and Pakenham (but not Moe or Traralgon as these locales are affected already by smoke but not as bad as Morwell/Churchill)

    4. Some schools in Morwell already closed and students being bussed to alternative campuses in Moe and Traralgon

    Appears to be lots of dithering and buck passing between State Govt agencies and local Council (surprise surprise!) at the moment which is odd considering the sterling effort undertaken after the 2009 Black Saturday fires.

  97. victoria

    The violent clashes on Manus Island that left an Iranian asylum-seeker dead happened after local G4S descended on protesting asylum-seekers, a preliminary police report has found.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/manus-island-violence-fatal-violence-occurred-after-g4s-guards-went-in-png-report-finds-20140226-33ii8.html#ixzz2uQQGr5Jb

  98. Psephos

    [Rommel did not have the appropriate resources, IMHO.]

    Of course he didn’t, because Hitler quite rightly thought that North Africa was a side-show and refused to reinforce Rommel’s unauthorised invasion of Egypt. The only reason North Africa is treated as a major theatre of the war is to flatter the vanity of the British, since after Dunkirk it was the only place they were actually fighting the Germans, and after Torch they were reduced to bit-players.

  99. Diogenes

    Literally thousands of people die every year due to medical errors. Are you people saying the federal and state health ministers are responsible for those deaths?

  100. mikehilliard

    Psephos@1635

    Good, then at the next change of government we can expect the release of cabinet documents & haul Abbott & Morrison into the courts for an RC.

  101. Jake

    Dio,

    [Difference between that and this episode, is that G4S was directly hired

    by ALP Minister Burke]

    Fair point, to which I would add that, obviously, Manus was in its entirety the work of the ALP.

    But Morrison can’t have it both ways. He can’t claim credit for the deterrence effect of Manus, but shift blame when the implementation fails on his watch.

    He made a big deal, in opposition, about the superiority of the Coalition, where the ALP proposed the same or similar policies, based on his purported ability to better implement or manage a policy.

  102. boomy1

    [Of course he didn’t, because Hitler quite rightly thought that North Africa was a side-show and refused to reinforce Rommel’s unauthorised invasion of Egypt. The only reason North Africa is treated as a major theatre of the war is to flatter the vanity of the British, since after Dunkirk it was the only place they were actually fighting the Germans, and after Torch they were reduced to bit-players.]

    Sounds like this Hitler guy was pretty smart hey Psephos.
    Bloody Rommel, no sense at all….

  103. Tricot

    For those who want to see a good article (in my opinion only) refer back in Crikey to one put out by Guy Rundle on February 19 entitled “In the race to be brutal, you have to finish the job”.

    In this short piece he explores the dilemma the Oz nation faces in dealing with AS and detention.

    On the one hand he claims we all want to be fair-minded liberals, but on the other we want to be ruthless.

    He thinks we are not much good at either.

    He maintains we have basically set up for ourselves the unpalatable feature of out of sight and out of mind places to deal with AS but what while we want boats quietly dealt with, we do not like the camps and the nastiness therein.

    He concludes with this interesting point: (sorry for such a slab of quote but it is worth the full real)

    “Though taking a hard line on boat arrivals is held to be a political necessity for both parties, the Coalition knows there is a paradoxical effect contained within (one that applies to a range of other issues such as the environment).

    A policy that makes refugees invisible will gain broad support. But one that taps into a conservative indifference to the suffering of others, or even a degree of forthrightness/bastardry, is more likely to win slices of support in socially conservative Labor seats where the Libs don’t have a chance, and lose support in some marginal seats, where Labor has a very real chance.

    In a tight election …..that pattern would make or break the Coalition’s chances.”

    On this basis it is no surprise that a big slab of the electorate are happy to “go in hard” on the AS – but, when it gets a bit messy and blood is spilt it may be another matter.

    The desperation of the government to cloak it all in secrecy is not surprising given the above.

  104. Diogenes

    Jake

    [But Morrison can’t have it both ways. He can’t claim credit for the deterrence effect of Manus, but shift blame when the implementation fails on his watch.]

    True.

  105. mari

    confessions
    Posted Wednesday, February 26, 2014 at 10:02 pm | PERMALINK
    mari:

    Today’s Chris Hadfield is simply breath taking!
    https://www.facebook.com/AstronautChrisHadfield/photos/a.157475407603538.32702.151680104849735/755316217819451/?type=1&theater

    Thank you for that beautiful photo I needed that as I have a “stalking” troll after me evidently so I have been told by 3 other tweeters, I didn’t see what was being said to me as it??? didn’t realise I had blocked it yesterday 😀

  106. Diogenes

    If Rommel had’ve been reinforced, he might have made it to the arabian oilfields which probably would have prolonged the war.

  107. mikehilliard

    [Warning shots had been fired, the police spokesman said. These had likely calmed the situation, he said. “Otherwise, the place would have been burnt to the ground.]

    I would think live fire would have a very calming effect on the refugees, morons.

  108. Labour of Love

    Psephos@1635

    I expect that any farm deaths resulting from work carried out with the so called drought relief money will result in a RC and that Abbott and Joyce will front up and explain what they new with the cabinet documents in hand. Also I would expect the same should an industrial accident kill anyone at Cadbury or Qantas as a result of government support for those enterprises.

  109. Bugler

    Dio,

    If that’s directed at me, it’s the opposite of what I meant. Certainly, if steps can be taken to avoid an outcome, and it’s deliberately or negligently ignored, said Minister is responsible, or at least required to do something such as question the department head or investigate. I don’t think we should hold politicians to account over things they have no power over.

    I have deep problems with those that negligently allowed those under their employment into dangerous and lethal work environments being let off because someone wants to chase the Rudd-Labor bogeyman. The same with keeping to account G4S for what they did rather than using it to call for Morrison’s head, which in the long-run won’t achieve anything too significant for the political left anyway.

  110. dave

    BW – Rommel did have the resources needed at various stages but he was beaten by a range of factors.

    – his initial tactics were wrong and he attacked the wrong points. In fact he thought it was a repeat of Dunkirk and that the allies would bug out.

    – Mines were constantly cleared by the germans and relaid by the allies.

    – The old favourite, active aggressive patrolling by the 9th Div and much use of baynonets to deadly effect during night patrols.

    – The big Easter 1942 attack by the german tanks was allowed to go right through the 9th Div perimeter so that the 25 pounders and what anti tanks weapons they had could be fired point blank at the tanks. At any other range the artillery would have bounced off the panzers.

    – Rommel certainly got a lot more tanks and everything after his Easter attack failed, but still he couldn’t break through.

    – Attacking a determined defender in well prepared positions was not hwhat Rommel wanted and was used.

    Bottom line was that Tobruk Port was vital for allied resupply in North Africa and just could not be allowed to fall.

  111. Psephos

    [But Morrison can’t have it both ways. He can’t claim credit for the deterrence effect of Manus, but shift blame when the implementation fails on his watch.]

    That’s true. In fact both sides are trying to have it both ways. The Coalition is trying to claim credit for the success of policies which were brought in by Labor, and Labor is trying to blame the Coalition for the unpleasant but inevitable consequences of the policy that they themselves brought in.

  112. Jake

    I just make the point that the Greens don’t seem to be cutting-through on AS anymore. I think they are genuinely appalled, and rightly so, but they just do not have a representative at the moment who carries enough leadership to budge the nation’s attitude.

  113. ShowsOn

    [Literally thousands of people die every year due to medical errors. Are you people saying the federal and state health ministers are responsible for those deaths?]
    I remember when Peter Garrett was held personally responsible for killing people in ceiling cavities.

  114. mikehilliard

    Tricot

    Rundle’s only usefulness is directed towards his own self gratification, ie he is a nob.

  115. Tricot

    Interesting as to where the buck stops. Was it Harry Truman who had a desk motif of “The Buck Stops Here?”

    That being the case, every Minister of Defence and PM, one supposes, is at face value, responsible for the death of each and every serviceman sent away to fight overseas in our name from the time of the Sudan.

    I suspect the question of single and group responsibility is much more complex and nuanced than this.

    In any event, the concept of ministerial responsibility in terms of actually taking the bullet for a mistake went out of the door some time ago.

    Was it Andrew Peacock who resigned when his wife bought cheap sheets or something from Myer?

    In any event, it does not matter now and such an idea would be considered quaint today.

  116. bemused

    milenko@1630

    Today’s Question Time

    http://youtu.be/tK106o2-sKA

    Scroll to 1hr13 min for Bill Speaking with sincerity …. something Bishop will never understand

    ( sorry if already posted)

    Thanks for re-posting, I missed it earlier and I am probably not the only one who did.

  117. Tricot

    mikehilliard@1663

    I don’t know much about the man but what he wrote made some sense to me.

  118. dave

    Rommel attacked against orders from the German High Command and the italian General nominally his boss.

    But after the Easter attack which was a total disaster he got most of what he needed as ordered by hitler.

    But his supply lines were stretched – one of the main reasons he was ordered to wait a while.

    The germans were also attacking Russia at that stage of course

  119. Steve777

    Craig Morrison has been taking the ‘credit’ for Nauru and Manus over the past 5 months. Since September 18 he owns it. He can delegate management to G4S or Transfield or whoever but he can’t delegate responsibility either to them or his predecessors. If the solution was flawed, it was his job to fix it or close the facility.

    Enough of this faffing around over the ‘admonishment’ motion. It is yet another distraction. Yes, Conroy should not have attacked the soldier, he should have attacked the politician. But people under our care have been killed and injured. It is Morrison’s responsibility to tell us what happended and and to take steps to ensure that nothing like this happens again. If he can’t do that he should resign.

  120. boomy1

    Dave, It’s not a good history that Fitzimons has compiled. Timothy Hall did a better one in 1981. Archival attributions in the index are checkable. I’m a cynic of course and middle aged men with headbands puzzle me. I think he’s gone too far on the Ron Barassi’s dad angle and less on the facts.

  121. mikehilliard

    Meanwhile our artistic merits are downgraded along with our humility.

    [This is a statement of our withdrawal from the 19th Biennale of Sydney.

    We have revoked our works, cancelled our public events and relinquished our artists’ fees. While we have sought ways to address our strong opposition to Australia’s mandatory detention policy as participants of the Biennale, we have decided that withdrawal is our most constructive choice.]

    http://art-leaks.org/2014/02/26/artists-withdraw-from-the-19th-sydney-biennale-over-transfield-sponsorship/

  122. Tricot

    Meanwhile back in the Western Desert….

    I thought the whole idea was for Rommel to meet up with southern elements of the German army coming down from Russia to cut the Suez?

    While in men and materiel the NA campaign probably did not match what was happening on the Easter Front, the Germans were not there just to get a sun tan.

    In any event, as many historians point out, the roll back of the Afrika Corps was the first time (along with the what was happening in Russia) which made it plain that Germany was unlikely to win the war.

    Easy to write it off the NA campaign some 70 years later as a side show, but I don’t think, at the time, it was quite viewed in this light.

    I remember my parents saying that even small victories such as the sinking of the Bismark (especially after the Hood went down) was a great boost to morale at the time.

  123. Psephos

    [Sounds like this Hitler guy was pretty smart hey Psephos.
    Bloody Rommel, no sense at all….]

    Up to a point he was, yes. He was very well read in military history and theory. In the first two years of the war he showed consistently good strategic judgement. After the defeat at Moscow in December 1941, however, he became increasingly rigid and unrealistic, and his interventions at the tactical level were usually disastrous. He had no grasp of defensive warfare and he lost interest in logistic issues, which made his orders increasingly unrealistic. He also made the classic dictator’s error of surrounding himself with toadies and cutting himself off realistic advice.

    Interestingly, Stalin went in the opposite direction. He started the war trusting nobody and trying to run the war himself, with disastrous consequences at Kiev, Uman and elsewhere. After Moscow 1941 he found generals he was willing to trust, notably Zhukov, and let them run their armies within the broad strategic framework he set down.

  124. dave

    Mirrison had 5 months to either satify himself everything was up to speed on Manus OR change arrangements and get another mob in.

    He is the Minister and secret squirrel – his responsibilty.

  125. Jake

    [That’s true. In fact both sides are trying to have it both ways. The Coalition is trying to claim credit for the success of policies which were brought in by Labor, and Labor is trying to blame the Coalition for the unpleasant but inevitable consequences of the policy that they themselves brought in.]

    I think it’s clear that the Coalition has a fundamental disdain for the idea that people can arrive uninvited and then make claims on the nation, whereas the ALP has become so frustrated by political damage on the issue that they no longer care and just want the arrivals to stop.

    I’m happy for the arrivals to stop, but it really is starting to feel like cruelty rather than harshness.

  126. zoidlord

    @Psephos/1660

    There is another caveat with that argument is that not enough resources, along with checks/balances with the contractor is not in place, this could have been solved.

    But I doubt that Coalition Party want to spend the resources on this, since they blamed Labor on the so called cost blowout when they were in power.

    https://www.liberal.org.au/latest-news/2012/12/29/%E2%80%98short-memory-%E2%80%93-opinion-piece-josh-frydenberg-federal-member-kooyong

    “More than 30,000 unauthorised arrivals and 500 boats with hundreds of lives tragically lost at sea, riots in our detention centres, a $6 billion budget blowout, and the farces of the East Timor solution the Timorese government did not want and the Malaysia solution the High Court wouldn’t allow.”

    My how the mighty have fallen (RE: Coalition Party).

    I think i said it before, running detention centers or a AS policy like this, requires lots of money, and decent people running the centers, and that includes guards.

    No policy either Labor or Liberal has successfully did this.

  127. confessions

    [Literally thousands of people die every year due to medical errors. Are you people saying the federal and state health ministers are responsible for those deaths?]

    Some appear to be, but please don’t put me in that camp.

  128. Jake

    Well, the ALP wanted the arrivals to stop. Back then. Now, maybe not so much…

  129. imacca

    Ye Gads, this is what i get for watching ABC news.

    Aggravation. 🙁

    The segment on the “insult” delivered by Conroy to Scrote Morrisum’s tame General was amazing. Hopefully Conroy and the ALP will hold firm on this one.

    This Govt are so pathetically thin skinned and the media so in tune with what the Libs want the narrative to be that this is somehow the “issue” of the day??

    Someone for who Scrote had responsibility was either murdered or the victim of manslaughter, but he’s not being told to resign?

    Mesma Bishop is breaking new ground in how to be a pathetically incompetent FM in yet ANOTHER failure in portfolio but she’s not being told to resign?

    Sen Nash is getting hammered for what seems to be at the very least “improper” behavior and she is not being asked to resign?

    Conroy calls out a General for being deeply involved in keeping information hidden during what amounts to a party political operation and that is somehow such a serious offense he must resign??

    The General should grow a pair for a start, and if he didn’t realize that fronting a political exercise like “Operation Wheres Our Borders Again??” was going to mean taking political heat then he is to fracking stupid for his rank.

    The military deserves respect but they should NEVER EVER be considered to be immune from criticism by our elected representatives, or examination by the media. Sometimes they stuff up and the story needs to be told. Sometimes they do disgusting things and those involved deserve censure and punishment.

    Create an environment where no criticism or examination is permitted and the scum in ANY organisation will float to the top and go feral since they know they will be protected. That’s the kind of thing Morriscum is doing now with AS.

    Abbott and Co are busy trashing any convention they can find to gain any political advantage they think they can grab.

    Cabinet confidentiality / document release.
    Politicizing the military.
    Funding Royal Commissions as witch hunts.

    This lot put the national interest a distant last. They are true scum.

  130. confessions

    mari:

    Have you noticed that Hadfield is now ‘astronaut Hadfield’ rather than ‘Col Hadfield’? I assume he’s only corrected his title recently as I haven’t noticed it before.

  131. DisplayName

    Psephos
    [Yes it does. If Morrison and Abbott are responsible for the actions of G4S staff on Manus, then Garrett and Rudd were responsible for the actions of whoever it was that caused the four deaths under the home insulation scheme.]
    This is not strictly true. Details matter, such as what they knew of the risks at the time they made the decision – yes, with Manus there are two decisions, Labor’s to initiate it and the Coalition’s to continue with it + any modifications they made – and the steps they took to minimise them.

    We (think we) know, for example, that the proportion of incidents was lower under the pink batts scheme than in the industry.

    You, yourself have said this was a foreseeable outcome of the policy.

    The Coalition are sifting through what they can to find evidence of a more direct link, that Labor brushed aside warnings, for example.

    You are only correct in the case that people are generalising about responsibility. e.g. it happened under their watch so they’re responsible, no detail necessary.

  132. DisplayName

    Sorry, @ 1580 middle paragraph should be “You yourself have said the riots at Manus were … “. In case it sounds like it’s a direct continuation of the previous paragraph about batts.

  133. mikehilliard

    Tricot

    Regarding Rundle please see my comment as no criticism of your opinion of his writing. I for some reason find his position often at odds with my own & to some extent jingoistic. No doubt that is not the case.

  134. DisplayName

    In fact, the whole 3 middle paragraphs are jumping around, oh well.

  135. confessions

    [and Labor is trying to blame the Coalition for the unpleasant but inevitable consequences of the policy that they themselves brought in.]

    Are they? All I’ve seen and heard are attacks on politicising the military, the culture of secrecy Morrison has cultivated, and his attempts to bury the truth in late Saturday night announcements. Those were certainly Shorten’s focus in his speech in QT today.

  136. dave

    Bommy – Fitz wears a doh-rag, not a headband.

    Presumably he is bald and the doh rag is the way he handles it.

    He also makes the point in his book that many of the dates, sequences of events have different versions from variuos people there. He got papers etc from Rommels son and all the letters home from Morshead who commanded 9th Division plus many other sources.

    Barrasis father gets a couple of sentences or so, little more in the book.

    But I’ll read other accounts as I come across them.

  137. imacca

    [After the defeat at Moscow in December 1941, however, he became increasingly rigid and unrealistic, ]

    What i have never been able to work out is why Germany declared war on the US after the Japanese attack in the Pacific. To me that ranks very close as an “ultimate war losing decision” to the decision to invade Russia and then faf around in the south instead of going straight for the logistics hub of Moscow.

  138. milenko

    Nash resignation?

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/tony-abbott-denies-talking-to-fiona-nash-about-her-resignation

    Abbott said: “The short answer is I had no such conversation with her.”

    But did Nash offer resignation to Credlin?

    When will Jurnos learn to listen & ask follow up questions

  139. DisplayName

    Certainly the Coalition generalised in such fashion with the pink batts. Rejecting their generalisations does not mean we can’t make more specific claims about responsibility based on the details of an event.

    Of course, just as you can’t have it both ways when generalising, you can’t have it both ways when being more specific either. If you’re talking about what they knew, when they knew it, and how they responded to warnings and such, you should apply that consistently.

  140. milenko

    Tony seems to be giving lots of “short answers” of late …….
    Maybe because his constituency has a short attention span

  141. Rossmore

    @margokingston1: @TurnbullMalcolm sorry Malcolm, Scott is Kurtz and Manus is his and our Heart of Darkness.

  142. mari

    confessions
    Posted Wednesday, February 26, 2014 at 10:38 pm | PERMALINK
    mari:

    Have you noticed that Hadfield is now ‘astronaut Hadfield’ rather than ‘Col Hadfield’? I assume he’s only corrected his title recently as I haven’t noticed it before.

    No I hadn’t just checked you are right

  143. dave

    Mari – think he is retired military now?

    May have something to do with it.

  144. Steve777

    Re Jake @1674: I think it’s clear that the Coalition has a fundamental disdain for the idea that people can arrive uninvited and then make claims on the nation, whereas the ALP has become so frustrated by political damage on the issue that they no longer care and just want the arrivals to stop.

    The Coalition are happy to exploit the standard distrust and disdain that people with an authoritarian outlook, the less educated and the fearful have for ‘the other’. It also ties in with the ‘Social Darwinist’ ethos (actually a slur on Charles Darwin) that many right wingers have, especially for people outside their particular tribe. On the other hand, I think that your assessment of Labor’s attitude is correct.

    It is a poor reflection on Australia.

  145. DisplayName

    Or shorter. It’s not unreasonable to reject a more general proposition that covers a larger number of cases, while advancing a more specific proposition that covers fewer cases.

    Of course that’s as long as you’ve been advancing the more specific one consistently, not as some post-rationalisation that coincidentally includes favoured cases and excludes disfavoured ones :P.

  146. mari

    dave
    Posted Wednesday, February 26, 2014 at 10:57 pm | PERMALINK
    Mari – think he is retired military now?

    May have something to do with it.

    Yes you are most likely right

  147. DisplayName

    Sometimes there are a lot of coincidences :).

  148. milenko

    confessions

    In the end News view on anything will be irrelevant , if they can employ half wits like Brooks…

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/25/rebekah-brooks-hacking-dowler-illegal

    Now leading ignorance of the law !
    & the prospect of Rupert being done for perverting the course of justice for offer to “look after” those imprisoned

  149. confessions

    DN:

    The pink batts program isn’t even analogous to the G4S (or whoever they are) situation.

    The former was a household rebate scheme whereby the govt reimbursed householders the cost of installing home insulation. Similar to the WA Water Wise scheme of reimbursing householders for their purchase of select Water Wise products.

    The latter is a tendered contractor providing direct services on behalf of the federal govt.

    A better analogy IMO is the many and varied services provided to the community by contractors on behalf of state and local govts. These include prisoner transport, waste collection and management, the various health services Dio mentioned earlier just to name a few.

    Should ministers be held directly responsible for a failure of day to day operations of these contractors? Perhaps in some cases one could make a case, but by and large, IMO I don’t think it’s fair to do so.

  150. confessions

    mari:

    I think dave is right: he’s retired ‘military’, but still obviously gets to go up in spacecraft because of his qualifications.

  151. swamprat

    Psephos

    [Up to a point he was, yes. He was very well read in military history and theory. In the first two years of the war he showed consistently good strategic judgement.]

    I am yet to be convinced of Hitler’s “strategic judgement” ever being good.

    Given his main aim (apart from celebrating his cult of “death”) was invading and occupying the east, Hitler set himself up for failure from September 1939.

    1. He politically miscalculated in thinking the British/French would accept his invasion of Poland.

    2. He failed in knocking Britain out of the war when he might have had a chance.

    3. He failed by delaying the invasion of Russia to support the Italian “side show” in Greece, North Africa

    4. He failed when he tried to fight a “two front” war.

    5. He has contempt for everyone and failed to enlist the real desire for freedom from Russian communism of many east europeans.

    6. He happily sacrificed 600,000 men on the Eastern Front rather than allow them to withdraw to fight another day.

    I think Hitler was a strategic idiot.

  152. mari

    Pendant

    http://www.defence.gov.au/defencenews/stories/2013/sep/0919b.htm

    Sent to me by one of my followers, note who else features in there our new GG “Old boys Club” ???

  153. zoidlord

    @Confessions/1699

    In duly noted what Confessions said in this post, I think it’s also highly hypercritical of the blame game, when so called Red Tape, Safety measures and so forth are weakened (by Federal or State) to the extent that problems do arise, the law.

    Especially over time, where laws are overturned, or rewritten to suit specific agenda’s (i.e. watering down for example).

    Contract between the Goverment (state or Federal) should be clear and precise as to who is what responsible for what.

    Many cases, half the time that isn’t the case.

  154. Rossmore

    Alert male testosterone….

    @BBCBreaking: President Vladimir Putin orders test of combat readiness of troops in central and western Russia

  155. sustainable future

    I’m a bit slow to read the Oz today, but I think this is the comedic highlight

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/popularity-stakes-prove-risky-for-alp/story-fn53lw5p-1226837655143#

    so being more popular than a government that should be enjoying a honeymoon period is a problem for labor, and inches of column length are devoted to shorten’s ‘slide’ in popularity and the implication and disapproval that shorten is acting like a populist leader.

    abbott’s terminal decline and failed populism does not get a mention.

    they outdo themselves for satire in doing rupert’s bidding to spin everything against labor and the greens. what a strange culture it must be in the Oz’s offices.

  156. Psephos

    [What i have never been able to work out is why Germany declared war on the US after the Japanese attack in the Pacific. To me that ranks very close as an “ultimate war losing decision” to the decision to invade Russia and then faf around in the south instead of going straight for the logistics hub of Moscow.]

    Three issues there.
    1. Yes the declaration of war on the US is a puzzle. I think he felt he owed it to Japan as an ally, and he presumed that the US would soon come into the European war anyway, which was probably true.
    2. The decision to invade Russia was the logical expression of his ideology. He wasn’t in the war to fight the British. He wanted to destroy Jewish-Bolshevism, and that required attacking Russia.
    3. Yes that was a serious error. But then, Napoleon waged a “narrow front” war in Russia and he lost too.

  157. ShowsOn

    As Tony Greig often said:
    [HIRTLER WARS A FORKING DORK HEAD]

  158. swamprat

    A funny example of foot-in-mouth politically statements.

    Johann Lamont Scottish Labour Leader (anti-independent) tells the voters that “we’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make politically decisions” … wtf

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBH55ZeZU4w

  159. Psephos

    [1. He politically miscalculated in thinking the British/French would accept his invasion of Poland.
    2. He failed in knocking Britain out of the war when he might have had a chance.
    3. He failed by delaying the invasion of Russia to support the Italian “side show” in Greece, North Africa
    4. He failed when he tried to fight a “two front” war.
    5. He has contempt for everyone and failed to enlist the real desire for freedom from Russian communism of many east europeans.
    6. He happily sacrificed 600,000 men on the Eastern Front rather than allow them to withdraw to fight another day.]

    1. That was a political error rather than a strategic one. Based on what he had seen of Chamberlain and Daladier at Munich, it was an understandable one. He underestimated Chamberlain, as did most other people.
    2. I don’t think he was ever close to achieving that.
    3. That’s a myth. The delay to Barbarossa was caused by the Russian weather, not the Greek campaign.
    4. He believed he could knock our Russia before the US came into the war. That turned out to be wrong, but not by much, and it was a widely shared view that Russia would collapse.
    5. That was certainly a political error, but it flowed from his ideology. He didn’t invade Russia to liberate the Russians, but to build a German slave empire in the east.
    6. I’m not sure what specifically that refers to.

  160. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    Thanks for the heads up on Shorten’s speech. I have only watched a half of one QT this year. QT has really gone down the pit.

  161. daretotread

    Swamp

    I am no military historian, but I think you may find that Hitler was forced by circumstances for each strategic mistake.

    I think he under estimated Churchill. Remember that Hitler had very good reason to believe that much of the UK elite including the former King and other members of the Royal F, swathes of the British upper class etc would swing behind him. The plan was to join with the UK to war with Russia. For whatever reason this plan fell apart and Hitler decided to put pressure on Britain by bombing.

    Bombing the UK was a very stupid action because it alienated the Brits forcing Germany into war with both the UK and Russia.

  162. Greensborough Growler

    Here’s another addition to famous misjudgements.

    https://twitter.com/pauljmcgann/status/438439473907384320/photo/1

  163. ShowsOn

    [Thanks for the heads up on Shorten’s speech. I have only watched a half of one QT this year. QT has really gone down the pit.]
    That’s what usually happens with majority government.

    But also as Tony Greig used to say:
    [Bronwyn Bit-chop is a forking dork head.]

  164. confessions

    zoid:

    The failures of the HIP were directly attributable to the tradies involved. There was little to no federal govt oversight of their activities – it was state govt regs.

    Not so subcontracted entities by the federal govt. But that said, to hold federal ministers responsible for day to day operational failures of subcontractors is a stretch IMO. Do we really want ministers drilling down into the nuts and bolts of day to day operations for each and every contract they oversee?

    Leases are in a similar vein, esp for local govt. At what point are individual councillors personally responsible for the conduct of a leaseholder?

  165. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    I did notice that PM Blood Oaf’s hairline has receded almost to the back of his neck. Now I know why he was so desperate to get out of the LOTO’s seat and into the PM’s.

  166. ShowsOn

    [Here’s another addition to famous misjudgements.]
    George Pell deciding to debate Richard Dawkins.

  167. Tom the first and best

    1706

    Napoleon started his failed Russian campaign on the 22nd of June 1812. Hitler, because of the Italian “sideshow”, launched his invasion of Russia on the 22nd of June 1941.

    Hitler`s campaign lasting 3 years rather than 1 was mainly due to improvements in the technologies of transport, food, clothing and communications, although a significant proportion of the German and other Axis armies were made up of non-mechanised units with horse transport similar to the used by Napoleon (but that were transported on trains where possible).

    Napoleon should have known better because the Russians had previously used the tactic they used on him on the Swedes leading to the defeat at Poltava (now in Ukraine).

    Napoleon should have taken Russian territory in smaller portions rather than try for one big defeat.

  168. zoidlord

    Highest Record in 15 years for unemployment:
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/dole-queue-at-record-length-national-jobless-rate-the-highest-in-15-years/story-fni0xqrc-1226837687528

    What DT didn’t tell is what happened since September election!

    Now using it for excuse to put their own agenda in!

  169. Psephos

    [George Pell deciding to debate Richard Dawkins.]

    Yes that was a bloodbath. But I was very annoyed at Tony Jones for making it a debate about politics rather than theology. If you have a Cardinal debating an atheist scientist, the question they should be debating is “Does God exist?”, not whether religion is politically a good thing or not.

  170. confessions

    [Do we really want ministers drilling down into the nuts and bolts of day to day operations for each and every contract they oversee?]

    That should read that their Department oversees.

  171. Psephos

    [Hitler, because of the Italian “sideshow”, launched his invasion of Russia on the 22nd of June 1941.]

    I’ve already pointed out that isn’t true. You can’t invade Russia until the roads dry out, which they don’t do until June. The Greek campaign did not delay Barbarossa, although it did divert some units.

  172. zoidlord

    @Confessions/1714

    Perhaps they should? Over a certain limit?

    It may help prevent larger failers?

    Like HIP, like One.Tel, etc.

  173. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    There were no deaths in the HIP in SA, because anyone who installed Home Insulation (except for their own house, I believe) needed a Builders Licence, They could have assistants of course, but someone with a BL needed to do the installation.

    It is not the Minister’s fault that other states did not have such strong regulations. The Minister could have insisted on people with Builders Licences doing the work, but I am not sure how the Feds could have policed that

  174. imacca

    [But that said, to hold federal ministers responsible for day to day operational failures of subcontractors is a stretch IMO. ]

    Agreed, but contracted personnel facilitating, and it appears actually engaging in the bashing of people they are contracted to guard is a bit more than a “day to day operational failure”.

    I’d argue that it indicates something systemic is badly wrong and for that the minister should be responsible.

  175. Greensborough Growler

    What’s a Richard Dawkins and why doesn’t anyone give a stuff?

  176. swamprat

    daretotread

    [Bombing the UK was a very stupid action because it alienated the Brits forcing Germany into war with both the UK and Russia.]

    The British Empire was at war with Germany before Germans bombed UK.

    German bombing of cities rather than air defences actually gave the RAF to a break to recover and win the air battle. Though I think that was Goring’s strategic mistake.

    A good strategist takes advantage of “circumstances”. Hitler was hopeless: driven by hatred, prejudice and belief in nonsense. Someone like that may be able to ride the skills of others for a time and even get lucky sometimes but will inevitably fail.

  177. victoria

    Premier Barry O’Farrell has been forced to admit he “dropped in” on a meeting attended by Liberal identity Nick Di Girolamo and former resources minister Chris Hartcher, whose relationship is being examined as part of a major corruption inquiry.
    The government has also admitted the meeting, on February 28, 2012, may have occurred before Mr Di Girolamo was placed on the official lobbyist register representing the Korean government-owned company Kores, raising questions about whether Mr Hartcher breached the ministerial code of conduct.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/barry-ofarrell-dropped-in-on-meeting-attended-by-nick-di-girolamo-and-chris-hartcher-20140226-33i5u.html#ixzz2uQnJcHXx

  178. fredex

    http://www.defence.gov.au/op/afghanistan/bio/angusCampbell/campbell.htm

    [In late 2005, he joined the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet as a First Assistant Secretary to head the Office of National Security and was subsequently promoted to Deputy Secretary and appointed to the position of Deputy National Security Adviser. In these roles he was responsible for the preparation of advice to the Prime Minister on national security issues and coordinating the development of whole-of-government national security policy.]

  179. Tom the first and best

    1709

    Germany had been doing a good job destroying the RAF until the focus of bombing was switched to the cities. Had that decision not been taken, and had more priority been given to submarines over battleships before the war, they might have been able to invade and occupy the UK and that would have made Germany much harder to defeat because of the lack of the UK as a base to launch air raids, naval patrols and the Normandy landings then Germany would have been in with a better chance.

  180. Psephos

    Oh GG, please spare us your “defender of the faith” routine. It’s very tiresome. We know you’re a loyal Catholic, but you don’t need to bang on about it.

  181. ShowsOn

    [What’s a Richard Dawkins and why doesn’t anyone give a stuff?]
    As Tony Greig used to say:
    [Grow orp you forking forktord]

  182. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    I think the Minister should be held responsible for not knowing wtf was going on for nearly a week after the man was killed in the Manus Island facility.

    First he says the violence was because the detainees were rioting and escaping out of the camp, and then it takes days for him to own up that the violence happened inside the camp, and that is where the man was killed.

    According to Morrison, he knew nuffink about nuffink because none-one told him stuff-all about nuffink.

    That is a good a reason for sacking a minister as any other I can name.

  183. swamprat

    Psephos

    [6. I’m not sure what specifically that refers to.]

    i was referring to the losses of the 6th Army under Paulus, at Stalingrad. Not meant as an exact figure. But a substantial loss, A couple of hundred thousand could have been saved.

  184. ShowsOn

    [I think the Minister should be held responsible for not knowing wtf was going on for nearly a week after the man was killed in the Manus Island facility.]
    If this happened in a state prison and Morrison was a state minister I suspect there would be inquiries flying around all over the place.

    But the fact is most Australians couldn’t care less what happens to asylum seekers on Manus Island, thus Morrison can just hide behind the apathy of the Australian people.

    In fact most Australians probably think Manus Island is a place owned by a judge on My Kitchen Rules.

  185. swamprat

    [George Pell deciding to debate Richard Dawkins.]

    As only a cultural Catholic I would not think George Pell would be a winning item. Though Dawkins is also a bit too “evangelical” and does not really understand his opponent. 🙂

  186. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    swamprat,
    I don’t think saving men’s lives was much of a priority in WW2, or WW1 either.

    It was a case of “you take the King’s/Fatherland/Motherland/Glorious Leader’s shilling, you take your chances”.

  187. confessions

    [I think the Minister should be held responsible for not knowing wtf was going on for nearly a week after the man was killed in the Manus Island facility.]

    Morrison clearly lied to voters, and sought to correct the record very late on a Saturday night.

    For this he deserves to be held accountable.

  188. imacca

    [Germany had been doing a good job destroying the RAF ]

    Not so much after the withdrawal from the continent. And a lot of the on the ground British losses were Coastal Command, not Fighter Command. What i’ve read indicates that the Germans did not have as many aircraft as attributed to them at the time, and British aircraft production was pretty well running ahead of losses during the air battles through to mid 41.

    Also, allied pilots could bail out and be back in the air in a new plane the next day. German aircrew shot down got a long holiday at the Queens pleasure.

  189. swamprat

    Puff, true but when an army is running out of lives to burn up a few hundred thousand represents some more canon fodder.

  190. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    Showson,
    Yes, probably. I don’t expect the masses to care much.

  191. Greensborough Growler

    Psephos,

    An alleged bloodbath where no blood was spilled is evidence of nothing more than rhetorical flourish. The alleged loser of said debate has now been promoted and the Catholic faith and influence is stronger than it’s ever been in this country. So, clearly the athiests are winning!

    LOL

    But, do carry on.

  192. imacca

    [Morrison clearly lied to voters, and sought to correct the record very late on a Saturday night.

    For this he deserves to be held accountable.]

    I want the bugger crucified just on general principles. 🙁

  193. Psephos

    Re Stalingrad, I did say that Hitler’s grip on reality declined after the end of 1941. Stalingrad certainly showed that.

  194. confessions

    [Agreed, but contracted personnel facilitating, and it appears actually engaging in the bashing of people they are contracted to guard is a bit more than a “day to day operational failure”.]

    Should the then WA minister have been held directly responsible for the conduct of those prison van drivers who allowed an indigenous man to die on their transport journey between prisons?

  195. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    fess,
    Yes, he was lying through his teeth, as if he did not make sure he knew what was happening. Sneaking that press release out at that time was desperate.

  196. Jimmyhaz

    @1718

    This couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the LNP’s ridiculously uninformed attitude to economics. Apparently, when you refuse to pump money into the economy, demand falls. Who knew!

  197. swamprat

    My Father was a spitfire pilot fought in North Africa and Burma but was in training in UK during battle of Britain. His diary at the time lists each day the pilots he knew killed in the Battle. It is sad to read…. most in their early 20’s.

    He was 19 at the time.

  198. Fran Barlow

    Imacca

    [I want the bugger crucified just on general principles. ]

    Biblical ones anyway … 😉

  199. Greensborough Growler

    Imacca,

    When Morrison was head of the Australian Tourism Department he gave us Lara Bingle. Now, as head of Immigration he gives us Manus Bungle.

  200. Fran Barlow

    Again, Mad As Hell was pretty good. Micalleff isn’t Jon Stewart or Bill Maher, but he’s at worst amusing. His “interview” with the Morrison “representative” was very well done.

  201. Psephos

    [His diary at the time lists each day the pilots he knew killed in the Battle.]

    There were only two ways more certain of being killed in WW2 than being a fighter pilot in the Battle of Britain. One was to be a Japanese kamikaze pilot (where being killed was the whole idea), and the other was to serve in German U-boats, where about 80% of all who served were killed. Even Red Army infantry had better survival rates. Bomber Command crew also had very high loss rates, but not as high as fighter pilots. Being on a bomber was in some ways worse, though, because survival was almost entirely a matter of luck, whereas fighter pilots could defend themselves.

  202. confessions

    GG:

    Very funny. 😆

  203. swamprat

    [I want the bugger crucified just on general principles. :(]

    While I oppose capital punishment, (amongst other things it makes you no better than an American), if there is any that need doing, I am more incensed by Nash.

    I think her behaviour is an example of (structural) corruption which is far worse than hillsong incompetence.

    As a (jnr) Minister for Health to actually put the profits of big international drug (sugar) pedlars ahead of the health of Australians (supposedly her responsibility) is unforgivable and should result in dismissal.

  204. swamprat

    I think the ALP should pursue her endlessly. It will also distract from bloody boats boats boats.

  205. Fran Barlow

    GG

    [An alleged bloodbath where no blood was spilled is evidence of nothing more than rhetorical flourish. The alleged loser of said debate has now been promoted and the Catholic faith and influence is stronger than it’s ever been in this country. So, clearly the atheists are winning!]

    It seems to me that one can put forward the following theories for Pell’s new job.

    1. The Vatican has no extradition treaty with Australia, so he is safe from more questioning on sensitive matters
    2. Pell is an embarrassment in public. In private he can’t make the Church look bad
    3. He has the kind of people skills that make Abbott seem unremarkable.Pairing him up with a ledger seems an obvious choice

  206. ShowsOn

    Did G.G. just imply that Catholicism is extremely influential in Australia now because our incompetent arse hat and moronic wank stain of a Prime Minister happens to be a Catholic?

  207. swamprat

    I gather even the devil (Rupert Murdoch is one of his current forms) tweeted with congratulations to Pell.

    That surely must be a worry to the Church!!

  208. Psephos

    [It seems to me that one can put forward the following theories for Pell’s new job.]

    Or, to be fair:

    4. That he is a competent bureaucrat who might actually do a good job of cleaning up the Vatican’s scandalous financial mess.

  209. deblonay

    The role of Fascists in the Ukrainian revolution
    _______________________
    Our media seems rather shy of looking at the role on the streets of Kiev and elsewhere in the Ukraine ,of an alarming range of local fascists groups,and a kind of “international brigade” of like-minded thugs from all over Europe..

    .The media seems happy to paint the picture of the groups on the streets as liberal democrats,but the article by American-Jewish writer,Blumenthal has given some alarming details of the facists groups now operating there.
    ,and very prominent in the chaotic situation there now

    Blumenthal is a noted US writer on Eastern Europe and the Middle East and has recently written “Goliath” a study of the far-right in Israel,which is a best seller in the USA

    He goes as far as to speak of neo-Nazis in the forefront of the Ukranian revolution,and the boost this will give to similar groups elsewhere in Europe

    \http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/us-backing-neo-nazis-ukraine?paging=off&current_page=1#book

  210. Greensborough Growler

    Psephos,

    Thanks for the information. But, I already knew that thrusting your opinions has always been much more your style.

  211. ShowsOn

    [Or, to be fair:

    4. That he is a competent bureaucrat who might actually do a good job of cleaning up the Vatican’s scandalous financial mess.]
    I didn’t realise that cult is in such bad shape. I thought they owned lots of real estate?

    The real scandal is their history of covering up sexual abuse. I don’t think Pell has shown any interest in fixing up that scandal.

  212. swamprat

    [That he is a competent bureaucrat who might actually do a good job of cleaning up the Vatican’s scandalous financial mess.]

    Much as I love Italians. You need other cultures to sort out the Vatican mess.

    I hope that is not “racist”.

  213. ShowsOn

    Can someone tell deblonay to fully underline his headings. His lack of proper formatting is really starting to piss me off.

  214. Greensborough Growler

    Fran,

    You would say that, wouldn’t you?

  215. swamprat

    [The real scandal is their history of covering up sexual abuse. I don’t think Pell has shown any interest in fixing up that scandal.]

    There are even worse scandals than that. The treatment of native Americans in the Spanish/Portuguese Empires stand out as even more evil.

  216. deblonay

    Wasn’t Pell said by Abbott to be his confessor”..rather like some medieval King would have same

    who will now cleanse Abbott of his sins??

  217. imacca

    [Should the then WA minister have been held directly responsible for the conduct of those prison van drivers who allowed an indigenous man to die on their transport journey between prisons?]

    Not the same i think fess. Sin of omission vs one of commission. Not that it makes it right, and the contractor needed to get a bollocking.

  218. Fran Barlow

    Psephos

    [4. That he is a competent bureaucrat who might actually do a good job of cleaning up the Vatican’s scandalous financial mess.]

    If that turns out to be the case, it will be a bonus. The Pope, rather than use the papal red shoes reportedly asked that some shoes he had in Argentina be repaired and sent to him. Perhaps he’s just someone who doesn’t like tossing away old stuff. Repair, re-use, recycle.

    Apparently he’s got some cleric working on an environmental policy. George should love being close to that.

  219. ShowsOn

    [Fran,

    You would say that, wouldn’t you?]
    Stop crying princess!

  220. kezza2

    [Puff, the Magic Dragon.
    Posted Wednesday, February 26, 2014 at 11:28 pm | PERMALINK
    I did notice that PM Blood Oaf’s hairline has receded almost to the back of his neck. Now I know why he was so desperate to get out of the LOTO’s seat and into the PM’s.]

    Camera angle?

    PS. That would have to be the funniest comment I’ve read, in ages. Guffaw Plus.

  221. confessions

    imacca:

    Yes, as I’ve said Morrison deserves kicking for his avoidance of scrutiny.

  222. kezza2

    [Psephos
    Posted Thursday, February 27, 2014 at 12:15 am | PERMALINK
    It seems to me that one can put forward the following theories for Pell’s new job.

    Or, to be fair:

    4. That he is a competent bureaucrat who might actually do a good job of cleaning up the Vatican’s scandalous financial mess.]

    The court jester. You win the prize tonight.

  223. imacca

    [I think the ALP should pursue her endlessly.]

    Particularly now her fearless leader has calle dit as such a minor matter. He has obviously thought deeply about it and reached a judgement on the matter. 🙂 He…owns it now. 🙂

  224. swamprat

    [In a highly publicised and controversial campaign which brought record numbers to the ballot box, Glasgow University students last week overwhelmingly voted NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden as their new rector in a statement against public surveillance.]

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/02/26/prison-playground/

  225. Psephos

    Someone has now suggested to me that Reza Berati was in fact killed by other Iranian detainees under cover of the riot because they knew (or suspected) that he was an Iranian government agent. Apparently the Iranian regime has an extensive spy network among the Iranian diaspora, so it’s not entirely implausible. I’d want to see some evidence however. It does suggest how dangerous it is to jump to conclusions as so many have done.

  226. kezza2

    fran
    [Pairing him up with a ledger seems an obvious choice]

    What better job for Pell than to be linked to his obvious strength.

    Pope Frank’s proving to be a master at the art.

  227. deblonay

    That about Abbott sins
    ___________________Pell must have been the worst possible public spokesman for any group I could think off

    On the media he seemed to radiate a kind of authoritarian arrogance which must have alienated most viewers

    He may well do ,a good job in the labyrinthine criminal world of the Vatican and it certainly needs a clean-up from many financial scandals

    Some time ago I read”God’s Banker” about a former head of the Bank of the Holy Spirit(what a wonderful name!!)who was implacated in the 1970ies with much embezzlement and died at the end of a rope under a London Bridge…at about the same time as the Pope of the day ,only in office a short time died in his sleep in Rome(he must have eaten something that disagreeed with him)

    The Vatican reads like the plot of a ripping novel

    anyway it’s get rid of Pell from our shores

  228. Psephos

    [The court jester. You win the prize tonight.]

    Why do you feel impelled to be a rude and unpleasant dickhead all the time?

  229. swamprat

    imacca

    it raises questions of integrity of government ministers

    ownership of Government by corporate interests

    it sets a theme that can resonate, especially when the TPP hands over power to corporations.

    I actually believe there will come a day when Governments will be replaced by Corporations. (though I will be dead by then, thank God)

  230. kezza2

    Psephos
    [Someone has now suggested to me that Reza Berati was in fact killed by other Iranian detainees under cover of the riot because . . .

    It does suggest how dangerous it is to jump to conclusions as so many have done.]

    Looks like you’ve joined the bandwagon. Enjoy.

  231. kezza2

    psephos

    [Why do you feel impelled to be a rude and unpleasant dickhead all the time?]

    Probably the same reason you feel impelled to be an obnoxious prat all the time.

  232. Ian

    Wonder if the Vatican state has a valid extradition treaty with Australia?

  233. crikey whitey

    I am of the opinion that the Pope is lining up Pell to handover church monies to victims of their crimes.

    I was and am frightened that Murdoch via Pell is being invited into the dead heart of the Vatican.

    It would scare me more if the Pope seemed to be a dead head, which he is not.

    Cunning plan, perhaps.

    And who will replace Pell.

    Someone to the Pope’s liking, I guess.

  234. crikey whitey

    Not that I read any of today’s posts.

  235. Psephos

    [Probably the same reason you feel impelled to be an obnoxious prat all the time.]

    I choose when to be an obnoxious prat. I’ve never once seen you make a comment here about anyone or anything that wasn’t rude and unpleasant.

  236. ShowsOn

    [Someone has now suggested to me that Reza Berati was in fact killed by other Iranian detainees under cover of the riot because they knew (or suspected) that he was an Iranian government agent.]
    Why would an Iranian agent potentially kill themselves by getting on a crappy asylum seeker boat? It just defies logic. If they wanted to get into Australia wouldn’t the Iranian government forge a passport and put them on a plane?

    This is a similar sort of argument that Peter Reith proposed after 11/9/01 terrorist ttacks that asylum seekers arriving by boat could well be terrorists, for which he didn’t present a scrap of evidence to back up the claim.

  237. swamprat

    deblonay

    [The Vatican reads like the plot of a ripping novel]

    I think there is already any amount of garbage like that already written. Have you heard of Da Vinci Code?

  238. crikey whitey

    Pshepos

    Yon 1777 beggars belief.

  239. Psephos

    [Why would an Iranian agent potentially kill themselves by getting on a crappy asylum seeker boat? It just defies logic. If they wanted to get into Australia wouldn’t the Iranian government forge a passport and put them on a plane? ]

    No, the theory is that he was there to spy on the other Iranians.

  240. Psephos

    [Yon 1777 beggars belief.]

    I didn’t say I believed it. I reported that it is being said. I report, you decide.

  241. kezza2

    Psephos
    [I choose when to be an obnoxious prat.]

    😆

    You’re so up yourself you can’t even be polite when addressing a fellow postee on this blog.

    [I’ve never once seen you make a comment here about anyone or anything that wasn’t rude and unpleasant.]

    You should stop speed-reading, you miss out out on all the polite nuance.

  242. ShowsOn

    [No, the theory is that he was there to spy on the other Iranians.]
    That still implies he risked his life on an asylum seeker boat headed to Australia.

    I find the idea to be unbelievable.

  243. crikey whitey

    Don’t write crap, Psephos.

  244. swamprat

    Psephos

    [Someone has now suggested to me that Reza Berati was in fact killed by other Iranian detainees under cover of the…]

    Who is this “someone”?

    Are you spreading malicious roomers against a recently dead person?

  245. zoidlord

    I think Psephos has just caved in to the whole Coalition Party boat policy.

  246. DisplayName

    He wrote it, Labor nicked it and the Coalition inherited it.

  247. swamprat

    To me, Psephos always writes like someone who has a detached cynical ruthless (possibly arrogant) personality.

  248. Psephos

    Glad to have got you all thinking. 🙂

    Night all.

  249. imacca

    [Yon 1777 beggars belief.

    I didn’t say I believed it. I reported that it is being said. I report, you decide.]

    Well, i can see Scrote seeing this as a great straw to grasp. And no doubt Mesma will weigh in with her extensive policy and intelligence experience……..

  250. fredex

    Psephos, I’d put that in pretty much the same company as Sattler’s justification for his question to Julia about Tim.

  251. DisplayName

    Nighty night.

  252. confessions

    [That still implies he risked his life on an asylum seeker boat headed to Australia.

    I find the idea to be unbelievable.]

    So do I. Why would the Iranian govt waste precious resources on a low-return operation of spying on the low number of boat arrivals heading for Australia?

    It simply defies logic.

  253. swamprat

    [Glad to have got you all thinking. 🙂

    Night all.]

    What garbage. So Israel Intelligence wants to plant a seed that everyone on here is supposed to “think” about!!!

    How transparent!!

  254. kezza2

    Psephos

    Runs away, while pretending he’s got everyone thankin’

    What a twat.

  255. crikey whitey

    ‘Glad to have got you all thinking.

    Night all.

    What arrogance, Psephos.

    At least you conceded last night that your boatism theories were dead in the water.

  256. Arrnea Stormbringer

    Don’t mind Psephos – he’s your average Labor Right hack, doesn’t give a fuck about principles or humanity, whatever gets votes gets his favour.

    It’s people like that that make the common folk distrust politicians.

  257. crikey whitey

    AS.

    One does mind people like Pshepos. He presents himself here as the all knowing arbiter of some one like Everything.

    I think he was quite reasonable in days past. Now he so up himself, condescending,judgmental, lofty of opinion.

    Who is he, to bullshit me.

  258. Fulvio Sammut

    Geez, I can’t wait to see News Limited and the Libs running Psephos’ line.

    Someone suggest it to Menzies House. Quick.

  259. mexicanbeemer

    Cardinal Pell is very suitable to run finances after all he has successfully avoided paying any tax despite leading a multibillion dollar business.

    And of course covering up for kiddy fiddlers and sacking injured workers.

  260. Fulvio Sammut

    Now you guys leave us grumpy old men alone!

  261. crikey whitey

    Yeah,Fulvio.

    I do wonder about Psephos’ loyalties.

  262. deblonay

    Re Vatican treaties
    _______________
    I understandd that there are no such extradition treaties with any state

    The people in the Vatiucan are mostly clergy like Pell employed there ,and a small staff of laymen and some women who do a range of duties involved with the daily running of the place/office works/catering/and general management tasks

    Only a few have Vatican passports

    There was an interesting BBC program a while back on this aspect…and a good restaurant for staff with great Italian food too…which I undersatnd the present Pope now uses…to the initial surprise of the staff

    BTW Pell already has great accomadation in “Domus Australia” the lovingly restored old apartment building he set up for Australian pilgims in Rome…at great cost,and many of the Australian Bishops refused to lumber their parishioners with that cost…

    He has a suite there and may well stay there when he takes up his Roman duties,though I guess there is accomadation in the Vatican too for senior clergy

    Onceon holidays in Rome my wife and I used the excellent Vatican Post Office,which has a reputation for actually delivering the mail
    I recall going to buy stamps in Rome for post cards only to be told that the Italian PO only had 100 Lira stamps which would have completely covered our messages on the Post cards..we walked to the Vatican and got the exact postage,and they all got delivered…”when in Rome…”

  263. crikey whitey

    Arrnea Stormbringer

    And what are your political leanings?

  264. mexicanbeemer

    deblonay

    What is the Vatican like to visit? i was thinking of including it in a bucket list of places to visit but it strikes me as being pretty restrictive.

  265. crikey whitey

    Mexicanbeemer

    A pretty black veil would work.

  266. deblonay

    Mexican Beemer re Vatican for a visit
    ______________________
    You can enter as a tourist at several places and pay to join a tour grou….
    The tour takes you to the Sistine Chapel…simply great place and awesome(to use a favourite word of several of my grandchildren)
    The tour also takes in the splendid Vatican Museum with a vast range of”stuff” including a host of gifts given to Popes by famous visitors..and one can have a nice lunch at a good cafeteria too

    I woukld recommend it as one of the great sights of Rome..and one can go into the great square in front of St Peter’s and also visit that amazing church

  267. Tom the first and best

    1814

    It has been alleged that the Pope eats at what is effectively the Vatican canteen, lining up to get food, as an anti-poisoning measure.

  268. Fulvio Sammut

    My assessment of Psephos is that he’s a convert to hard right Labor from student style leftism, and like most converts he’s a zealot in professing his relatively new assessment of old principles.

    You don’t have to accept everything he says, but you don’t have to take everything you disagree with personally either.

    He says what he thinks, and Devil take the consequences. That’s because he’s reached a stage in his life that for him there are probably no longer any consequences.

    That’s a happy place for most, when they come to terms with it.

    But for some, like me, and others on here with fixated mindsets, we come across as cantankerous and grumpy old men when we call it as we see it.

  269. crikey whitey

    Just to pull oneself into reality, of sorts.

    Actually referring to politics.

    I heard much earlier on tv news that there seemed to be some confusion about a couple of seats and boundaries.

    Which I scoffed at. As if one would not know which electorate they were in. Whatever, I paid little attention. Until speaking to my Mod Lib friend tonight (NO relation to Everything) who finds herself suddenly no longer in the Seat of Mitchell, but that of Elder.

    She has no notion of the candidates, apart from Digance and some other. But Digance was standing in my Federal electorate of Boothby last I knew. Which was pretty damn recent. My Mod Lib has no idea if there is even a Lib candidate. And she does keep up.

    Some stuff other about similar confusion in Norwood/Dunstan so renamed.

    And not to echo Stormmbringer. But gee.

  270. crikey whitey

    Fulvio

    But, I am a mere girl.

  271. mexicanbeemer

    Thanks Deb, The history of the Vatican is very interesting, many of the pope’s have been fascinating and the church’s role in history makes it a place of interest plus the architecture.

    CW

    A vail, mmm

  272. Fulvio Sammut

    Well, you can be a Grand Old Dame then.

    I’ve been on here long enough to have an assessment on you too!

  273. deblonay

    The Domus Australia_______And now …for your next Roman Holiday…,Domus Austalia…a truly lovely hotel/guest house run by Cardinal Pell…open to all faiths or none …(as long as you pay.).and it is not too expensive by Roman standards,,,but a splendid old restored building wth a great open courtyard and chapel built by a famous architect…it has the lot by the looks of the ads…
    and with an Australian clientale..and great Italian food too…Great work George Pell…so why don’t some people like you ???????????

  274. crikey whitey

    A veil, Mexicanbeemer.

    Fulvio. I do like you.

  275. deblonay

    Psephos has great difficulty…despite his scholarship..in accepting criticism of his right-wing labor views or of his passionate support for Israel

    I was described once as an idiot for a post I made re Israel…,and I haven’t yet forgotten or forgiven that slur

    I have had many criticism in life but no one has even called me an idiot

  276. absolutetwaddle

    Well Psephos, at best you’ll get a big, fat “told ya so” opportunity (as the late Christopher Hitchens said, one of life’s greatest pleasures) in the remote possibility that rumour turns out to be correct. Otherwise you’ll get the usual suspects jumping all over you should any other scenario be proven, which appears highly likely.

    On balance perhaps it would have been best to keep that one to yourself. 😉

  277. crikey whitey

    Referring to my discussion of candidates.

    My Mod Lib friend and I agree that none of the candidates have anything to offer in terms of life experience or even qualifications.

    I took the trouble the other day to phone the office of Sharman Stone. Offering my congratulations on a fight well fought. I firmly believe in community and livelihoods etc.

    Identified myself as a Labor voter and a South Australian. Sympathetic to local eg Spring Gully etc.

    I looked at Sharman Stone’s qualifications and experience while I was about it.

    Excellent. Unlike these wannabees I guess.

    I still lament the loss of Nicole Cornes, who really had what it takes.

  278. swamprat

    Fulvio

    [My assessment of Psephos is that he’s a convert to hard right Labor from student style leftism, and like most converts he’s a zealot in professing his relatively new assessment of old principles.]

    Maybe.

    My assessment is that he is the bumbling “Get Smart” of the Israeli Secret Police. 🙂

    Being pretend “Labour” is part of his cover.

  279. crikey whitey

    Swamprat.

    I read your earlier stuff on Psephos.

    He has gone to far!

    Cover is blown!

  280. crikey whitey

    Add an ‘o’

  281. crikey whitey

    Should I get Pirelli tyres for my car?

  282. absolutetwaddle

    swamprat

    “My assessment is that he is the bumbling “Get Smart” of the Israeli Secret Police.”

    Sorry, deblonay has already bestowed me with that title.

  283. swamprat

    haha 🙂

    why waste time on this infertile Psephotic subject

  284. zoidlord

    Another study for bonus wind farms that liberals won’t like:
    http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/february/hurricane-winds-turbine-022614.html

    “”We found that when wind turbines are present, they slow down the outer rotation winds of a hurricane,” Jacobson said. “This feeds back to decrease wave height, which reduces movement of air toward the center of the hurricane, increasing the central pressure, which in turn slows the winds of the entire hurricane and dissipates it faster.””

  285. imacca

    [Should I get Pirelli tyres for my car?]

    Only if they come with a calendar. 🙂

    Seriously, i had Pirelli Dakar’s on an old Landcuiser PC years ago. They were total crap off road. Mate at work had Pirelli Scorpions on his Landcruiser Wagon. They worked a lot better, but were quite soft, wore out quickly and had issues with punctures.

  286. B.C.

    Psephos Posted Thursday, February 27, 2014 at 12:46 am @ 1792

    I didn’t say I believed it. I reported that it is being said. I report, you decide.

    It sounds like crap, or a malicous rumour designed to denigrate asylum seekers and their supports.

    We know that Mr Berati died from head injuries – the PNG Police have stated that in their report.
    We know that a large number of other people sustained injuries, including head injuries – this has been stated by the Australian Government as well as asylum seeker supporters.

    We have had a large number of reports, from multiple sources, that asylum seekers were attacked by PNG nations. Whether those nationals were PNG Police, island locals or locally employed G4S guards is unclear. However, the PNG Police report has stated that it was locally employed G4S guards so let’s accept that.

    So we know that PNG nationals, probably G4S guards, attacked asylum seekers within the camp and many of those asylum seekers sustained head injuries, some of them serious.

    On the other hand we now see a rumour that Mr Berati was murdered by other Iranians while these attacks were going on because he was an Iranian spy. We have not been presented with a shred of evidence to support this allegation.

    Given the above I think it would be reasonable to conclude that Mr Berati was killed by a PNG local during their attack on asylum seekers in the compound.

    What troubles me is why do some people think to create and spread such rumours. I see a similar sort of thing with those emails and Facebook posts that turn up regularly stating that asylum seekers are better looked after than age pensioners. What motivates someone to create such malicious lies.

    It reminds me of that incident many years ago when a boy died while his parents were unable to call for help because their phone was not working, and was overdue for repair by Telstra. Some people started making claims that the phone had been cut off for non payment. It was complete crap. But some individuals went to the effort of inventing and spreading the story.

  287. Bushfire Bill

    MEMO

    From: Kristina Kennealy
    To: Cardinal George Pell.
    Subject: Your new job

    ——————————–
    G.,

    DON’T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE ARSE ON THE WAY OUT.

    Rgds.,

    K.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/george-pell–the-view-from-the-pew-20140226-33h07.html

  288. Otiose

    UPDATE: 06:19:00 27/02/2014 —- Nett_NEWS++™ @ http://bit.ly/1aQcqOy #auspol http://bit.ly/1hTGcKz

  289. BK

    Good morning Dawn Patrollers.
    MUST READ! Tara Moss exposes what went on inside Manus.
    http://taramoss.com/manus-island-insiders-report/
    Mark Kenny – Fiona Nash is in a mess.
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/fiona-nash-has-been-poor-the-pm-must-be-worried-20140226-33il1.html
    Oh dear! Now some evidence of Furnival’s direct role in the deals with Cadburys.
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-and-axed-man-at-cadbury-photo-op-20140226-33inb.html
    And yet another dock-up by Nash.
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/fiona-nash-admits-resource-library-wasnt-duplicated-20140227-33iu2.html
    A good Peter Fitzsimons contribution on the toll often taken on high profile sports stars.
    http://www.smh.com.au/sport/swimming/grant-hackett-the-latest-swimmer-to-fall-victim-to-the-sports-relentless-demands-20140226-33i6s.html
    If this is not a disgrace then nothing is!
    http://www.smh.com.au/business/financial-planners-free-to-flout-advice-rules-due-for-repeal-20140226-33ige.html
    Some intra-government introspection on the proposed legislation for drunken assaults.
    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/liberal-mp-peter-phelps-says-harsher-drink-laws-no-deterrent-for-steroidmunching-types-20140226-33ia1.html
    If you don’t want to get angry don’t read these.
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/royal-commission-tears-as-woman-tells-of-abuse-in-parramatta-girls–dungeon-20140226-33h5n.html
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/royal-commission-abuse-nsw-government-girls-homes
    Virgin accuses the government of “picking winners”.
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/26/virgin-qantas-debt-guarantee-worth-100m