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Federal Politics 2013-

Apr 10, 2014

BludgerTrack: 50.0-50.0

The Coalition lead in Newspoll causes the two parties to reach parity on the BludgerTrack poll aggregate, while Tony Abbott pulls ahead of Bill Shorten on net approval.

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New results from Newspoll, Essential Research and Morgan has put BludgerTrack back to the position of two-party parity it was at three weeks ago, after which Labor was up to 51.8% and then 50.9%. They have also ironed out the brief slump recorded by the Greens last week, who have progressed from 11.3% to 8.9% to 10.4%. This week’s gain has come entirely at the expense of Labor, with the Coalition vote unchanged. On the seat projection, the Coalition is back in majority government territory, the meter having ticked in their favour by two seats in New South Wales and one each in Queensland and Western Australia. After a quiet spot last week, new leadership figures have emerged from Newspoll and Essential Research, and they find Tony Abbott with a rare lead over Bill Shorten on net approval, although preferred prime minister remains in the stasis it assumed in early December.

Also note that coverage of the Western Australian Senate count is ongoing on the dedicated thread, with a Liberal victory in the final seat looking increasingly likely.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

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2173 comments

2,173 thoughts on “BludgerTrack: 50.0-50.0

  1. daretotread

    Bemused

    The Monash Corporate finance was implicitly Freidmanite, and although economic issues was not its focus, most of the assumptions underpinning the course assumed a perfectly free market, quite detached from reality.

    I got particularly fed up when they taught us that share markets following en masse UNSUBSTANTIATED rumour about a CEO his wife and the gardener (and similar low level rubbish) was perfectly RATIONAL behavior when clearly it was nutty herd behavior.

  2. daretotread

    It is funny how attitudes change.

    When I was young, retiring at 55 was the expectation and indeed to stay on longer was seen as rather selfish and antisocial. In many countries eg Greece and India, retiring at 50 was mandatory in the public sector.

  3. bemused

    daretotread@1974

    Bemused

    The Monash Corporate finance was implicitly Freidmanite, and although economic issues was not its focus, most of the assumptions underpinning the course assumed a perfectly free market, quite detached from reality.

    I got particularly fed up when they taught us that share markets following en masse UNSUBSTANTIATED rumour about a CEO his wife and the gardener (and similar low level rubbish) was perfectly RATIONAL behavior when clearly it was nutty herd behavior.

    OK, point taken, although I don’t really regard that as Macro-Economics. It is just standard market analysis which is a gross over-simplification of reality and makes lots of unrealistic assumptions.

  4. mari

    Bemused 1973

    Age factor? or over qualified another one?I have friends who tell me that is what is “given” to them as excuses now days. THAT is if they even get to the interview stage.

    How about contract work? When my OH and I took early retirement,(after pretty high power jobs) I was not quite ready to give it all up and managed to get a position 2 days a week here, is an area with high unemployment. Reason given to me was I am a left hander and 2 of the 3 owners were left handed. 😀 Worked very happily for about 4 years until business sold. Offered other jobs but was ready to hit the “travel” scene. Did like having a “house” husband though 🙂

    Best wishes to you to get the position you want.

  5. CTar1

    bemused

    [It may seem surprising, but I was ‘young’ then. ]

    That you’re an old fart is not surprising.

  6. mari

    http://demise-of-tony-abbott.blogspot.com.au/

    Think a lot of Tony Abbott’s bullshit is exposed in this humorous blog

  7. deblonay

    Dave re Ukraine’s
    ______________ eastern areas
    ………..

    The Age today reports that the Ukr.PM has signified that he is now coming around to the Russian idea that the Ukraine should be”neutralised” and that it should have a federal constitution which would allow the Russian-speakers in the east a large degree of autonomy

    The new regimke in Kiev earlyier set put to hit the Russian and the use of their a language,and closing down Russian TV channels etc..and other such provocative measures

    Last week the BBC had a program made in those areas and wages and pensions are less than half of those which can be earned across the border in Russia,and it’s the heartland of Ukrainian industry

    So the Russian there have many grievences

    Kissinger of all people has just stated that the Russian calls for “Federalisation” are reasonable

    BTY the program said that the last thing Russia would want is to do is to annex the Ukrain… with 45 million and a bankrupt economy in ruins…indeed Putin’s clever strategy is to let the Euros and the USA find great heaps of money to pay the Ukrainian state debts…Ukraine is a bastket case and will trouble the Euros mightily in the mointh ahead. as it will default..Greece looks like Switzerland by contrast
    Only a kind of madness among the Wadshington neo-cons would have got them involved in the coup there,, but then the US has a terrible recent histiry of policy failures, and they will now have to pay the bills tha’s now their problem…and the gas bills must be paid or the Russians plan to turn off the taps

    Putin will visit China in May and sign a massive deal for a Trllion $s worth of gas ,,,so the Euro markets seem less important for Russia…which has all the trump cards…oil and gas are better than armies these days

  8. mari

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVaeZDNnD2c&feature=youtu.be

    sent to me by one of my followers who are the group recording

  9. bemused

    mari@1977

    Bemused 1973

    Age factor? or over qualified another one?I have friends who tell me that is what is “given” to them as excuses now days. THAT is if they even get to the interview stage.

    How about contract work? When my OH and I took early retirement,(after pretty high power jobs) I was not quite ready to give it all up and managed to get a position 2 days a week here, is an area with high unemployment. Reason given to me was I am a left hander and 2 of the 3 owners were left handed. Worked very happily for about 4 years until business sold. Offered other jobs but was ready to hit the “travel” scene. Did like having a “house” husband though

    Best wishes to you to get the position you want.

    Yes, I have had the “over qualified” line used, along with a few other idiotic lines.

    I am seeking contract or permanent work.

  10. Sir sustainable future

    There’s a great book entitled “Why Economists Disagree” that provides a fantastic summary of history and philosophy of economics and does a vivisection of neo-liberal orthodoxy. Most who’ve gone through economics or commerce degrees at the major universities since the late 1980s seem to not even been taught that there are different schools of economics to that of Friedman and Hayek. I chaffed against very neo-liberal orthodox anti-interventionist resource economics at when at uni in the mid 1980s, but at least had older texts that provided overviews of Keynesian economics and Nugget Combs, and later did environmental economics and history and philosophy of economic.

    Within state and federal treasury, finance and premiers/PM departments there are few if any who understand the world outside of the neo-liberal world view – they just were never taught that there are alternatives ways of viewing things.

    Labor governments have been remiss in not bringing in some modern day Nugget Combs types or allowing thought from outside this orthodoxy (to be fair, they have a few progressive economists among their ministries). Here in Vic, Brumby as treasurer kept all of Stockdale’s people and pursued the same policies – I saw them frustrate many progressive policies because their models bounded to not include social or environmental benefits said they’d slow economic growth by a week or so over a decade,

    The fact that any social and environmentally progressive policy gets through in Australia is a miracle and is always done despite the urgings and tut-tuntting of the dry as dust text-book neo-classic economists who run those departments. Not enough credit is given to Rudd, Swan and Henry for getting the stimulus packages up, although there was a Keynesian resurgence during the GFC to keep the whole ponzi scheme that is the stock market economy going.

    Abbott and Hockey would have crashed us into a recession and used it as a way to lower wages and working conditions. they well still might.

  11. deblonay

    Dave re Ukrainian crisis
    __________
    The usually reliable”American Conservative “Mag has a good article saying in effect much that I quoted from the BBNC re Ukraine..and it’s immese problem for the US and the EU

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ukraine-learns-the-problem-with-revolutions/

  12. bemused

    CTar1@1978

    bemused


    It may seem surprising, but I was ‘young’ then.


    That you’re an old fart is not surprising.

    Well, better than being a “young fogey” and there are plenty of them around. 😛

    I am trying to implement Billy Connolly’s advice to “grow old disgracefully”. I take your post as evidence I am succeeding. 😉

  13. CTar1

    deb – Make sure that child not only does Mandarin talk but can do text as well.

    Dexterity. Come on down.

  14. deblonay

    Sir S F, 1983
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    The Abbott/ Hockey policies will be of the kind that Naomi Wolff in Canade calls”disaster capitalism” or sometimes “Vulture capitalism”…. where they use a “crisis” to make savage cuts aimed at the middle and lower classes.. but .never the wealthy
    does that surprise you??

  15. lizzie

    The Irishman in charge of Qantas springs to mind.

    [The process is made worse by inheritance and, in the US and UK, by the rise of extravagantly paid “super managers”. High executive pay has nothing to do with real merit, writes Piketty – it is much lower, for example, in mainland Europe and Japan. Rather, it has become an Anglo-Saxon social norm permitted by the ideology of “meritocratic extremism”, in essence, self-serving greed to keep up with the other rich. This is an important element in Piketty’s thinking: rising inequality of wealth is not immutable. Societies can indulge it or they can challenge it.]

  16. CTar1

    bemused

    A sides ways.

    Connolly’s wife’s parents live/d in Canberra.

    He used to stay in a particular Canberra Hotel and was a medium proficient pool player. Always game.

    Swapped some Schooners with him.

    I remember chipping him once because he tried a Pommie coin in the queue.

  17. bemused

    CTar1@1990

    bemused

    A sides ways.

    Connolly’s wife’s parents live/d in Canberra.

    He used to stay in a particular Canberra Hotel and was a medium proficient pool player. Always game.

    Swapped some Schooners with him.

    I remember chipping him once because he tried a Pommie coin in the queue.

    I imagine you had a most amusing time with him.

    I thoroughly enjoyed the movie “The Man Who Sued God”.

  18. confessions

    OMG the Newman govt’s latest contribution to muscular Abbott style rhetoric: http://strongchoices.qld.gov.au/

    Suffice to say that twitter has responded appropriately. 😀

  19. CTar1

    bemused

    Sometime glum and sometimes fun. It was nothing I’ve ever thought about other than the obvious.

    The the guy liked to have a casual drink and play some not great pool.

    He was a worthy competitor.

  20. bemused

    An interesting pre-selection looms in my State Electorate.

    There are two candidates. One is a woman of Chinese background and the other a man of Indian / Irish background.

    So whoever wins we will have an “ethnic” candidate.

    I am currently leaning toward the woman as she sent out an excellent letter with a profile on the back. The profile concluded:

    [“Real life experience… Professionally, Jennifer has worked as an IT Engineer. She has masters degrees in Applied Information Technology and Science (Earth Science – Geophysics) and bachelor degrees in Science (Earth Science – Geophysics) and Business (Accounting). Her background sets her apart from the usual political staffers, union officials and lawyers who dominate the state and federal parliaments.”]
    That last sentence just about settles it. 😀

    On the downside, she has not been a party member for very long, having only joined this year.

  21. davidwh

    You have to be persistent if you find yourself unemployed at 50+. I was made redundant at 54 and it took me the best part of six months to get what has turned out the best job I have ever had. In the meantime I just did whatever work was available, not great but enough to get by.

  22. bemused

    The presenter on ABC 24, Nick Dole, looks like an intern or student doing work experience.

    The ALP should recruit him as our answer to Wyatt Roy. 😛

  23. bemused

    davidwh@1995

    You have to be persistent if you find yourself unemployed at 50+. I was made redundant at 54 and it took me the best part of six months to get what has turned out the best job I have ever had. In the meantime I just did whatever work was available, not great but enough to get by.

    You were indeed lucky.

    There are many highly skilled professionals who have been unemployed over 12 months in Melbourne. Some much longer.

  24. davidwh

    There were many applications and disappointments along the journey Bemused.

  25. New2This

    Happy to work till I’m 70. Having a ball at moment. Made redundant at 48 contracted for 12 months. Now full time.

  26. deblonay

    Re over 50 unemployment for women
    ___________________
    I have a family member in her mid-50ies…lost her job when Bailleau “pruned ” the Public service ,where she had a lifetime of experience
    She’s found no job opportunities in her line of work…has managed on her redundancy pay and soon her super will,come on Line and she’s then be OK,as her husband is still working…
    .if she was single it would be a real life crisis
    but she found jobs in her line to be
    non-existant ..and even low paid unskilled jobs want young kids not older women

  27. poroti

    Nice to see how our maaates are using our good name.

    [MI6, the CIA and Turkey’s rogue game in Syria

    The annex refers to an agreement reached in early 2012 between Obama and Erdogan with Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar supplying funding. Front companies, purporting to be Australian, were set up, employing former US soldiers who were in charge of obtaining and transporting the weapons. According to Hersh, the MI6 presence enabled the CIA to avoid reporting the operation to Congress, as required by law, since it could be presented as a liaison mission.]

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mi6-the-cia-and-turkeys-rogue-game-in-syria-9256551.html

  28. briefly

    Abbott’s PPL should be seen primarily as fertility policy with a socially regressive tilt rather than – as it purports to be – as an economic policy.

    I think it’s best seen as a legacy of Abbott’s formative DLP values. By those now-dimming lights, women were to be paid to stay out of the workforce, marry and have plenty of children. Abbott’s PPL is a neo-con incarnation of NCC population, family and social policies.

    It is expressed as a way to help mothers (and, indirectly, their families) meet some of the opportunity costs (lost income) that result from having babies.

    It is a deliberate feature of this policy that payments will not be tested against against women’s ability to meet these opportunity costs. The test would only be whether mothers incur them and the benefits would be scaled according to their employment status.

    From the data on births, we can note the recipients of PPL would mostly be mothers in their late 20’s and early to mid 30’s. The median age of mothers at confinement was 30.7 years in 2012. Their median age has risen from 26.9 years in 1983 to 28.9 in 1993 and 30.2 years in 2002.

    In 2012 there were 309,582 births. Fertility rates were highest among women aged 30-34 years followed by those aged 25-29 and then 35-39. Births to women in these age groups in 2012 totaled 242,271, or 78.2% of all births.

    However, not all mothers – or, indirectly, fathers – will receive Abbott’s PPL benefits. The benefits will vary according to their standing in the labour market. Viewed this way, the policy certainly discriminates against younger, less educated, less-well-paid and less-employed females and their families.

    For example, those aged 15-24 have a lower employment to population ratio than the total female population (46.0%; 55.0%) a lower participation rate (55.0%; 58.6%) and a notably higher unemployment rate (26.2%; 7.2%). If women in this age group have children they are therefore much more likely to receive nothing than their older sisters.

    Of course, females in general have very high rates of part-time employment (around 50% of all jobs held by females are part-time) and have relatively high rates of employment in the least-well paying occupations. In common with men, median incomes for females are less than mean incomes.

    It follows that the benefits of Abbott’s PPL will flow disproportionately to the relatively few relatively well-paid females. That is, the benefits will most favour those who are in the best position to meet the opportunity costs of confinement and, conversely, will least favour those with the least capacity.

    Viewed this way, Abbott’s PPL will replicate the structural inequality of the labour market generally, and accentuate it in respect of those younger females (and their families) who are most likely not to be working at all.

    The proposed PPL will also amount to an indirect bonus to women who are in formal or informal marriages. Very few births – 10,181 or 3.2% in 2012 – are (in the language of the ABS) “ex-nuptial where paternity is not acknowledged”. However the incidence of these births is strongly related to the age and, by inference, the marital position of mothers. Births to these mothers trend as follows:

    http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/3301.02012?OpenDocument

    Ex-nuptial births where paternity not acknowledged,% of total births x age of mother at confinement, 2012

    15 and under 43%
    17 20.6
    18 15.3
    19 12.9
    20 10.7
    21 8.6
    22 6.6
    23 6.0
    24 4.5

    25 4.1
    30 1.4
    35 1.7
    40 2.9

    The median age at first marriage in 2012 was 28.1 years for females. The median age for females in all marriages in 2012 was 29.4 years. Age of marriage overlaps the incidence of confinement. While this looks like a truism, it means that younger mothers are not only less likely to be working, they are less likely than their older sisters to have the advantages of a stable relationship. It follows they will be less able to meet the costs of having children. Abbott’s policy is practically designed to neglect those who might most need it.

    Since it is a fertility policy, Abbott’s PPL should also be considered against the trends in fertility. The ABS has a wealth of stats on this, starting here:

    http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/PrimaryMainFeatures/3301.0?OpenDocument

    Total Fertility – Annual Rates

    1960 3.451
    1970 2.895
    1980 1.896
    1990 1.908
    2000 1.756
    2010 1.886

    2011 1.917
    2012 1.933

    Quite obviously, Abbott is intent on having the wider population reward the fertility of the relatively well-off, perhaps hoping the share of births to affluent mothers will rise and increase total fertility at the same time.

    By comparison, the most fertile women in Australia are also those least likely to qualify for PPL. They are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women, who in 2012 had a fertility rate of 2.703 and a median age of 24.6 years. In 19.1% of these births, paternity was not acknowledged.

    The labour market status of these women is notoriously poor. For example, for indigenous women in 2010:

    15-24 yo unemployment rate 28%
    25-44 yo 12.2%

    15-24 yo employment to population ratio 31.9%
    25-44 yo 51.4%

    15-24 yo participation rate 44.3%
    25-44 yo 58.6%

    Abbott’s PPL is a baby mega-bonus with a very steep upward slope. It is also has a lot of gaps. If you don’t fit into the model suburban-worker cohort when you’re having your children, you’re likely to miss out significantly or even completely.

    As social policy, it will almost certainly fail because it will create a sense of division – of winners and losers – among those whom it is supposedly intended to support.

    While Abbott might think this policy will drive voter support for the LNP, it is far more likely to do the opposite. It will repel voter support because it accentuates social, economic and demographic inequalities.

    It is very strange policy and should be redesigned to meet the needs of children.

  29. AussieAchmed

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlE_FOGCAAANe6n.png

    Abbott even lies in Parliament

  30. lizzie

    briefly

    Good information for those such as Mod Lib, who support Abbott’s PPL. I hope she reads it.

  31. lizzie

    AA

    Not only lies, but always accuses Labor of being worse than he is.

  32. briefly

    2004
    lizzie

    It’s a very interesting subject… 🙂

  33. Kevin Bonham

    Anyone know if Nielsen is out tonight/tomorrow? Four weeks since their last and I assume they’d want to give Easter a wide berth.

  34. lizzie

    Anyone who is researching their ancestry will soon realise that women have often been the breadwinner of the family.

    [A woman’s place used to be in the home – women gave up work after marrying, and husbands were the breadwinners. That’s what we have long believed. The very idea that a woman would hold down a job, while leaving her children in a creche or with a childminder while she was away at work is new and modern – a result maybe of wartime changes, or the liberation of women since the 60s, and certainly not the norm in Victorian Britain. Like many things that everybody knows, however, this picture is inaccurate. Research I have undertaken shows that women have traditionally worked in a much wider range of occupations than previously thought – many of them today regarded as men’s work – and were frequently the main earner in their household.]

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/13/working-women-stay-at-home-wives-myths?CMP=twt_gu

  35. Edwina StJohn

    Briefly I reckon the obsession with the fairness of ppl will be on a par with the family tax benefit, ie it will be attacked on economic grounds but will be a winner politically.

    I think the irony of the alp attacking this when they allowed things like the 50 per cent CGT discount which does massively advantage the wealthy to remain when they had senate control is funny.

  36. AussieAchmed

    LNP supporters in QLD will take great comfort in the knowledge that Abbott does not support levies to assist in rebuilding after natural disasters.

    WE remember his rabid attacks on the former Labor Govt that were repeated ad nauseam by LNP supporters for introducing a levy to help QLD after the devastating floods.

  37. AussieAchmed

    Hearing talk about the negative gearing, nothing unusual about that. While there are no doubt a lot of wealthy people who take advantage of negative gearing what people should also acknowledge is that there are a lot of “mum and dad” investors. They have purchased a second property to boost their retirement funds.

    Now the younger generation are raising concerns about baby boomers retiring and the cost of pensions, and then at the same time ranting that the baby boomers should not be able to profit from investment properties and negative gearing.

    Can anyone else see the thinking is the same as the Liberal Govt?

  38. zoidlord

    @EDJ/2009

    Family Tax Benefit is not the same as PPL.

    FTB like most things via Centerlink is income/asset tested.

    PPL is a rort.

  39. briefly

    [2009
    Edwina StJohn

    Briefly I reckon the obsession with the fairness of ppl will be on a par with the family tax benefit, ie it will be attacked on economic grounds but will be a winner politically.]

    I doubt it will work politically, ESJ. It will create big differences in benefits. Quite a few women will completely miss out. It is a very poorly designed policy.

    In general, I really like the fact that the money will be paid directly to mothers. That is laudable. But many will get very little or nothing at all, and this will amount to a penalty not only on those women but on their children and their partners. That is ow it will be perceived too – the LNP playing favourites with children. Few things will arouse bitterness more than that.

  40. AussieAchmed
  41. Edwina StJohn

    Actually Zoidy it might have been before your time but the Alp bitterly opposed ftb b. yet did nothing about it in office, if memory serves correctly swannie was its biggest opponent.

    On another note I hear Burke is the likely NSW/qld right candidate to replace shorten later in the year if things don’t pick up.

  42. AussieAchmed

    When Abbott puts his signature to a promise it is worthless. Says a lot about what type of “man” he is

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlEEq7FCYAAz_uO.jpg

  43. Edwina StJohn

    I think the other irony briefly is that the greens will make the policy less costly , economically responsible etc etc.

  44. ruawake

    Hockey’s mooted old age pension changes should worry anyone in there 30s or 40s.

    You will have to work another 3 years until you are 70, missing out on arounr $60,000 of pension. Then you miss will out on $30 a year of indexation compounding for 30-40 years.

    A very loose calculation is around $24,000 over a lifetime.

    SO guys you are ~$85,000 worse off, you gunna fight it or think its too far in the future to care about?

  45. AussieAchmed

    SO guys you are ~$85,000 worse off, you gunna fight it or think its too far in the future to care about?

    And that’s not counting the loss to superannuation as Abbott stops the increase to 12%.

  46. Everything

    [lizzie
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 5:32 pm | PERMALINK
    briefly

    Good information for those such as Mod Lib, who support Abbott’s PPL. I hope she reads it.]

    Indeed I did.

    Summary: the PPL goes to folk with jobs.

    Yes, I already knew that, but thanks anyway.

  47. lizzie

    Everything

    You are very arrogant.

  48. MTBW

    Does anyone else think that it is interesting that ESJ and Everything turn up at the same time?

  49. Everything

    [ruawake
    ….SO guys you are ~$85,000 worse off, you gunna fight it or think its too far in the future to care about?]

    You factored in 3 additional income of full pay (at what is probably the highest income of your working life) yeah?

    You didn’t?

    YIKES!

  50. briefly

    [2017
    Edwina StJohn

    I think the other irony briefly is that the greens will make the policy less costly , economically responsible etc etc.]

    They can put in a universal floor (not related to employment status), a lower ceiling and a shallower gradient…and end up with a policy that every new parent would be happy with. I guess it will all have to be negotiated through the new Senate. Labor shouldn’t leave the running to the Greens and other cross-benches.

  51. Tom the first and best

    2011

    Negative gearing raises the cost of buying a a home and puts it out of reach of many people who will end up on the pension and thus increases the amount that will be needed for housing assistance for those on the pension. Buying your own home is the most popular form of retirement saving in Australia and negative gearing makes it harder buy helping richer people to buy other peoples homes.

    Also, a large slab of negative gearing goes to people who will never get the aged pension.

  52. Everything

    [MTBW
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 6:20 pm | PERMALINK
    Does anyone else think that it is interesting that ESJ and Everything turn up at the same time?]

    For those wanting to know when I am around:

    PBS Newshour Sat 4:30-5:15
    Evening news
    Lateline
    Impending polls (isn’t there a ACN about to come out?)

  53. Everything

    oh….and the Sunday morning political shows

  54. Everything

    ruawake:

    Just to get this crystal clear:

    You are saying that you are against increasing the retirement age to 70 years.

    Is that right?

  55. Edwina StJohn

    I myself am more seasonal, I think Comrade bowe even described me as a seasonal malady once! Current season will end after the federal budget in May.

  56. Tom the first and best

    2018

    How is indexation missed out on? As long as you are over aged pension age, the pension does not differ with age and so the indexation of the pension you get will still happen while you are not getting the pension.

  57. Everything

    Usually, when they are talking about you, when you are around, or why you bother coming here, it usually means you are right and there is nothing they can say to address what you are actually posting :devil:

  58. Edwina StJohn

    I am opposed to raising the retirement age, it’s a fact that older people become inflexible and bang on ad nauseum about the same thing. PB is proof that some people should be eased out of the productive workforce sooner than later.

  59. Yesiree Bob

    If you think that PPL will be popular out there in voter land, then I have a bridge in Sydney to sell you

  60. AussieAchmed

    Also, a large slab of negative gearing goes to people who will never get the aged pension.

    I’ve worked all my life, and at times 2-3 jobs.

    I am not wealthy or rich. But through buying/selling investment properties over the last 40 years I will not be drawing an age pension. Negative gearing made that possible. If not for negative gearing I would not be in the financial position of not needing the age pension.

    No doubt I could “hide” my money and draw the pension and other benefits but I don’t need it so I won’t.

  61. Everything

    ESJ:

    I get the impression that working folk are in a minority here (mostly retired unionists and people on the disability pension from what I can remember).

  62. Edwina StJohn

    no doubt the other 6 wrinklies at your branch meeting agree with you bob.

  63. bemused

    lizzie@2021

    Everything

    You are very arrogant.

    I sense someone who has had a privileged upbringing and never suffered any hardship in life.

    Her belief system is obviously: “To those that have more shall be given. Whoever does not have, what little they have shall be taken away.”

  64. briefly

    [2021
    lizzie

    Everything…..You are very arrogant.]

    Everything is a classic Lib who does not mind social or economic inequality. In fact, because she identifies herself as being relatively clever and deserving of her advantages, she probably enjoys a degree of inequality. In this respect, she is a snob, as are many Liberal voters. They cannot identify with Labor’s egalitarian ethos because it would lead them to also identify with their social, economic or educational inferiors.

    Since social affiliation is an overwhelmingly powerful driver of behaviour, there is nothing we can do about the likes of Everything.

    We can learn from them, but I doubt they are capable of learning much from us.

  65. Edwina StJohn

    Very true everything 2035. On Pollbludger Julia Gillard was a centrist, oakey and Windsor were independents and unions genuinely represent workers.

  66. bemused

    MTBW@2022

    Does anyone else think that it is interesting that ESJ and Everything turn up at the same time?

    ESJ has been hanging around like a bas smell for a while now.

  67. Edwina StJohn

    Like the bourbons briefly ?

  68. psyclaw

    Lizzie

    She’s a die hard Abbotteer who gets her kicks baiting others.

    I’ m waiting for the day she presents some propositions based on principle or morals or ethics about the social good and then logically argues a point of view.

    But she just cuts and pastes anything that’s anti-Labor inflammatory or pro Abbott inflammatory, and if challenged she invents a unicorn or asks an irrelevant question or cuts and pastes other irrelevancies, just to keep the bait alive.

    Maybe tonight she’ll point out the principles and rationale for her support of the PPL, or why very wealthy people should receive non means tested private health insurance rebates.

  69. Everything

    [bemused
    ….I sense someone who has had a privileged upbringing and never suffered any hardship in life.]

    Definitely privileged but, malheureusement, I cannot say the last bit is true….

    [Her belief system is obviously: “To those that have more shall be given. Whoever does not have, what little they have shall be taken away.”]

    Classic projection and hate the projected reality.

    Whatever makes you feel reassured!

  70. New2This

    I’m happy to work till 70. Especially if my taxes go towards PPL. Go Tony…

  71. briefly

    [2041
    Edwina StJohn

    Like the bourbons briefly ?]

    E is petite-bourgeois – no need for Madame Guillotine.

  72. Everything

    [briefly
    …..Everything is a classic Lib]

    You mean like not voting for them?

    […. who does not mind social or economic inequality.]

    wRONg

    [ In fact, because she identifies herself as being relatively clever and deserving of her advantages, she probably enjoys a degree of inequality.]

    Yes, I am lucky.

    [ In this respect, she is a snob, as are many Liberal voters. ]

    That is how you justify reality to your conscience it appears!

    [They cannot identify with Labor’s egalitarian ethos because it would lead them to also identify with their social, economic or educational inferiors.]

    Huh?

    [Since social affiliation is an overwhelmingly powerful driver of behaviour, there is nothing we can do about the likes of Everything.]

    No, probably true, I am unlikely to be persuaded by the personal attacks, projections and insults here…..try some reasoning and see how you go though…..

    [We can learn from them, but I doubt they are capable of learning much from us.]

    Well, one is too modest to argue with that! :devil:

  73. Yesiree Bob

    Edwina StJohn@2036

    no doubt the other 6 wrinklies at your branch meeting agree with you bob.

    Why should Gina Rienharts daughter get tax-payer moneys to have a child whilst other mothers will barely receive a red-cent ?

  74. daretotread

    Bemused

    Everything is NOT Mod Lib
    I am just about certain.
    Mod Lib was a reasonable sort of a person and NEVER nasty

    Everything is a point scorer and often quite mean. I do NOT think they are the same (they may be related). Mod lib was a female Dr I think.

    Everything seems more male

    Possibly Modlib posts occasionally ie when discussing medical matters (these often make sense)

    Everything are you the hubby, son , brother daughter of mod lib or are you both from Menzies House.

  75. Edwina StJohn

    I doubt Gina r’s daughter is a waged employee bob.

  76. ruawake

    [How is indexation missed out on? As long as you are over aged pension age, the pension does not differ with age and so the indexation of the pension you get will still happen while you are not getting the pension.]

    The indexation will be lower, as Hockey will link it only to CPI. This was my entire point, good to see you missed it.

    Also Hockey inferred that wages will not keep up with CPI in the future, what does he know?

  77. Yesiree Bob

    Everything@2035

    ESJ:

    I get the impression that working folk are in a minority here (mostly retired unionists and people on the disability pension from what I can remember).

    and as I was saying this morning about hubris

  78. New2This

    One thing ill never do is contribute to bloody union. Never

  79. briefly

    [2046
    Everything

    briefly
    …..Everything is a classic Lib

    You mean like not voting for them?]

    Disdain for all, admiration for none, it seems. Is no-one good enough for you?

  80. briefly

    [Everything….
    No, probably true, I am unlikely to be persuaded by the personal attacks, projections and insults here…..try some reasoning and see how you go though…]

    I am not interested in persuading you of anything much. Why bother. You’re much like CC – at best a detour on the road to understanding.

  81. frednk

    [
    New2This
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    One thing ill never do is contribute to bloody union. Never
    ]
    I think you should dwell a little on the differences between Argentina and Australia.

  82. Everything

    [psyclaw
    ….She’s a die hard Abbotteer]

    Just like all the other die hard Abbotteers who didn’t vote for Abbott, I guess?

    [ who gets her kicks baiting others.]

    I admit to getting my kicks highlighting the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the patronising posters here. One won’t go into naming of course…… 😀

    [I’ m waiting for the day she presents some propositions based on principle or morals or ethics about the social good and then logically argues a point of view.]

    1. I recommended raising the tax free threshold to the poverty level years ago
    2. I recommended ending the offshore processing policy since its inception
    3. I recommended against the changes to the single parent pension
    4. I fully supported the NDIS from the start

    [But she just cuts and pastes anything that’s anti-Labor inflammatory or pro Abbott inflammatory, and if challenged she invents a unicorn or asks an irrelevant question or cuts and pastes other irrelevancies, just to keep the bait alive.]

    I challenge the childish “everything Abbott touches is evil” stuff here.

    I also gently mock the never-ending “Peak Abbott” we get here!

    [Maybe tonight she’ll point out the principles and rationale for her support of the PPL, or why very wealthy people should receive non means tested private health insurance rebates.]

    I have, many, many times. But very happy to do so again.

    1. PPL should be a workplace entitlement, it is NOT a welfare payment
    2. PPL should be paid at the individual’s wage.
    3. We need to change the incentive arrangements away from poor, unprepared mothers having babies for the money, to established, employed, middle class women being able to have babies who are currently avoiding it, or avoiding work, due to the difficulty of moving in between the two
    4. PPL will enable increased breastfeeding rates to 6 months (WHO recommendations) or at least to 4 months (the minimum age which everyone in the health sphere recommends. There is some debate about when to wean, whether 4 months or 6 months, based on iron deficiency rates if you exclusively breastfeed too long, and potential allergy associations (although this is still unclear, so we don’t know when to introduce potential allergens).
    5. The PPL will increase workforce participation which increases productivity, tax revenues, decreases welfare payments and increases the super-pool, hence savings and is fantastic for women and their relationship with the workforce.

    All of which I have said before, some of which I have said many times before!

  83. Edwina StJohn

    Actually Fred unions are much stronger in Argentina than Australia.

  84. Yesiree Bob

    Edwina StJohn@2049

    I doubt Gina r’s daughter is a waged employee bob.

    And yet, she still will qualify, where too many women will miss out

    Anyway, that’s one thing you two have in common.

  85. AussieAchmed

    The Trolls are out and doing their best to “poke” everyone.

    That’s all they got….can’t defend the Liar Monk. Just keep on throwing up unicorns which is proof of their lack of intelligence, their lack of faith in Abbott and his policies and their acknowledgement that Abbott needs as much protection from examination as they can provide

  86. Everything

    [daretotread
    ….Everything is a point scorer and often quite mean.]

    Why do you claim that I am “often quite mean”?

  87. psyclaw

    Bemused, Comrade

    In the teaching of reading one eminent researcher coined the phrase “the Matthew principle” to describe the way mediocre teaching enables those who already possess certain rudimentary skills (acquired in various ways that usually do not include school experiences) to benefit and develop.

    But mediocre teaching totally fails the important task of providing those rudimentary skills for those who don’t have them.

    Hence, the rich get richer and the poor can please ’emselves.

    The source is Matthews gospel, but not being very dog-fearing I’m not sure of the verse ….. perhaps 23.

    As an aside, It reminds me of the beatitudes ……. blessed are the deaf for they shall hear, blessed are the blind for they will see, etc. The gem is the one about the poor ……. blessed are the poor for they will see Dog.

    But in this life they can suck eggs.

    Now who was it that said religion is not about social control.

  88. Everything

    [briefly
    …..Disdain for all, admiration for none, it seems. Is no-one good enough for you?]

    Last election there was certainly no-one good enough for me, no…..

  89. lizzie

    [mostly retired unionists and people on the disability pension from what I can remember]

    This is the kind of sweeping statement that really annoys me, as do all generalisations.

  90. lizzie

    [mostly retired unionists and people on the disability pension from what I can remember]

    This is the kind of sweeping statement that really annoys me, as do all generalisations.

  91. ruawake

    Union report from ALP Branch meeting today, Education union membership up 10% since January.

    Oh and we had to hire a larger room, too many members to fit in the old one. 3 new ALP members this month.

  92. Yesiree Bob

    New2This@2052

    One thing ill never do is contribute to bloody union. Never

    So, you will be more than happy to give up your sick leave
    4 weeks paid holidays
    overtime, once you have worked more than 8 hours in a day
    long service leave…..
    need I go on ?

  93. Everything

    [2. PPL should be paid at the individual’s wage.]

    I should clarify, that I am happy to cap the total to some reasonable amount (happy for it to be $100k for example, rather than Abbott’s $150k). However, it needs to merge into a workplace payment over time, and then it should be at the individual’s pay, although the majority of the positive benefits I mentioned would only apply up to about $100k-$150k, after that mothers probably aren’t very sensitive to the PPL level.

  94. Yesiree Bob

    Everything@2056


    1. PPL should be a workplace entitlement, it is NOT a welfare payment

    Which is being funded via taxation.

  95. frednk

    [
    Edwina StJohn
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    Actually Fred unions are much stronger in Argentina than Australia.
    ]
    An inidication that you know very little about Argentina

  96. Edwina StJohn

    I think the sad thing everything is how many of the aging labor faithful here will have deceased before a labor government is elected again.

    I know of at least one who has passed since 2007.

    On a brighter note GG is getting better and hopes to be well enough to start posting again.

  97. davidwh

    The insults are being thrown thick and fast these days. Again I agree with much of what said above except I thing PPL as a fell workplace entitlement needs to be brought in over time. We just can’t afford a full PPL at this time. Also the businesses that benefit should pay rather than taxpayers.

  98. davidwh

    Sorry much of what ML said above.

  99. Everything

    I didn’t realise GG was sick.

    Please pass on my best wishes. Tell him his post on the NSW Election was the funniest thing I have seen in this neck of the woods!

  100. ruawake

    Abbott has zero chance of getting his PLL farce through the Senate. Unless he does a deal with the Greens pre- June.

    Even then it will not be his policy and his franked dividend rip off will die as it should.

  101. Everything

    reawaken:

    You didn’t answer….

    Do you support pushing back the retirement age to 70 years or not?

  102. frednk

    The kouk is not impressed with Hockey’s bullshit.

    http://thekouk.com/blog/joe-hockey-treasury-or-trickery.html#.U0pSnKIa2n5

  103. psyclaw

    # 2056

    At the end of the post Everything lists 5 points in answer to my challenge to her to logically argue a point of view.

    It is merely a list of conclusions, all lacking statements of underlying principles, or values, or ethics, and each one lacking an argued rationale.

    For example, she blithely states that PPL is an entitlement, not welfare. This is a glib and vacuous claim, in the absence of said underlying principles /values and a logical rationale.

  104. frednk

    The Liberal’s abuse of the military really is a disgrace.

    Martin Pakula ‏@MartinPakulaMP Apr 12

    Anybody want to rethink their condemnation of Conroy? Seems to me Campbell has well & truly entered the arena #auspol pic.twitter.com/xmCqNHktg7

    Malcolm Fraser ‏@MalcolmFraser12 56m

    Angus Campbell warns asylum seekers not to travel to Australia by boat http://gu.com/p/3zbkz/tw via @guardian.Was General Hurley informed?

    Malcolm Fraser ‏@MalcolmFraser12 50m

    General Hurley in charge of Defence Force should have prevented any military officer being used for such political purposes.

  105. Yesiree Bob

    The PPL is being funded via Taxation, therefore it is Welfare. A very expensive form of very Middle Class Welfare.

  106. Bushfire Bill

    An entire article on the search for flight MH-370, going into technical details, and the only source f information given is… Tony Abbott.

    In Coalition World, Abbott is now leading the search, jst about carrying it out single-handedly. Angus Houston doesn’t even rate a mention anymore. It’s wall-to-wall Abbott.

    Incidentally, the article says that Abbott told everyone there was virtually no hope of anything being found anytime soon.

    Gee, I must have had wax in my ears. That wasn’t the way I heard his statements.

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/long-hunt-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-looms-as-pings-go-silent/story-fniztvng-1226882591990

  107. frednk

    Last time I look labor had already brought in s PPL scheme. The issue is Abbott raiding the biggest companies to provide a little extra for “women with merit”.

  108. kezza2

    [1. PPL should be a workplace entitlement, it is NOT a welfare payment]

    I’ll never understand this notion of parenthood or pregnancy or giving birth being part of work.

    Getting pregnant is not part of a person’s job. Becoming a parent is nothing to do with a person’s job. It’s nothing to do with a workplace nor any workplace entitlement.

    It’s is welfare, pure and simple.

    Therefore if everyone supports the notion of PPL, then it should be funded from taxation – and labelled for what it is, social welfare, a safety net if you like, to enable people to have families and not to slide too far down the class ladder while doing so.

    I can’t believe I survived raising kids without a bonus or a PPL. Does everything have to be a handout now, can’t sacrifice a bit of personal spending money in order to provide for your own kids (and teach them a lesson in frugality at the same time) or is this workplace-connected argument to get the fathers onboard.

    All too much.

  109. bemused

    Mad Lib@2043


    bemused
    ….I sense someone who has had a privileged upbringing and never suffered any hardship in life.


    Definitely privileged but, malheureusement, I cannot say the last bit is true….


    Her belief system is obviously: “To those that have more shall be given. Whoever does not have, what little they have shall be taken away.”


    Classic projection and hate the projected reality.

    Whatever makes you feel reassured!

    Perhaps your hardship is from the torment of your soul or whatever Libs have in place of one?

    No projection, just a slight adaption of a biblical quote. It seemed to fit with my observations of you.

  110. Bushfire Bill

    If it’s a workplace entitlement then it should be paid by the EMPLOYER, asall other workplace entitlements are.

    I’m actually amazed that the media can report po-faced on Hockey’s”End of the Age of Entitlement”and, at the same time, report – again po-faced – that the Abbott PPL is a “workplace entitlement”.

    The double-whamy of it NOT being paid by the employer and the total contradiction in terms between one “entitlement” being bad and another being “good” is gob-smacking, but there you go… that’s what the journos are paid to do.

  111. frednk

    Stephen Mayne ‏@MayneReport 5h

    Hockey’s “budget emergency” would be more credible if Libs weren’t exacerbating it by slashing mining/carbon tax revenue & PM’s PPL folly.

  112. psyclaw

    BB

    I note in your link the quotes from Abbott “We are doing this and we are doing that…..”

    Jerkhead!

    Just like him loading fish boxes in Japan, all safety vested up, or being a firie in the Blue Mountains, he is so deluded as to believe that he is the “doer” in so many (any) work domainss.

    I’ll never understand how the meeja and voters can’t see the stupidity and shallowness of his antics, and call him out.

  113. Centre

    Some are calling Mod Lib a “she”.

    I think you will all find that Mod Lib is actually a “he”.

    Ok, let’s call it a draw?

    Mod Lib has been officially castrated and is a gelding 😆

  114. Yesiree Bob

    frednk@2086

    Stephen Mayne ‏@MayneReport 5h

    Hockey’s “budget emergency” would be more credible if Libs weren’t exacerbating it by slashing mining/carbon tax revenue & PM’s PPL folly.

    My sentiments exactly, what a pity that not one of the press pack seem willing to point this out to any of the Fibs.

  115. Everything

    [psyclaw
    ….At the end of the post Everything lists 5 points in answer to my challenge to her to logically argue a point of view.

    It is merely a list of conclusions, all lacking statements of underlying principles, or values, or ethics, and each one lacking an argued rationale.]

    What a society deems to be workplace entitlements are determined by how that society values various variables. There is no ethical right to work. It is a societal construct. The same applies to annual leave or sick leave or paid parental leave.

    We as a society decide that we value rest and recreation, health, and children as an important societal “good”, just as the “goods” produced at work are important. Hence, we as a society put value on such variables and determine that we will cover the cost of having those things (or the employer will do it and we will pay them more so that they can do it, but we will insist that they do it).

  116. Yesiree Bob

    psyclaw@2087

    BB

    I note in your link the quotes from Abbott “We are doing this and we are doing that…..”

    Jerkhead!

    Just like him loading fish boxes in Japan, all safety vested up, or being a firie in the Blue Mountains, he is so deluded as to believe that he is the “doer” in so many (any) work domainss.

    I’ll never understand how the meeja and voters can’t see the stupidity and shallowness of his antics, and call him out.

    The emperor has no clothes.

  117. Steve777

    Re Everything @2056: intersting to see the rationale set out like that. Have you or anyone done the numbers? A cost / benefit or business case for Abbott’s PPL scheme?

  118. Centre

    Abbott’s PPL achieves two goals:

    1. It returns taxpayer funds to the highest income earners lowering their tax contribution.

    2. It will breed more rednecks lowering the need for immigration.

    Perfect policy for Abbott. No wonder he converted to it when his little brain gave it thought.

  119. briefly

    E…sigh…

    1. PPL should be a workplace entitlement, it is NOT a welfare payment

    Quite obviously PPL is not a universal workplace provision. It is just misleading to describe it as a workplace entitlement. It is an attempt to use the welfare system to address the incapacity of many employers to meet any kind of PPL payments. As designed it will replace existing workplace entitlements with non-universal, arbitrary and inefficient tax-based wage supplements.

    2. PPL should be paid at the individual’s wage.

    Why? Why not pay enough to achieve the benefits mentioned at, say, point 4 below? Since it is being funded from taxation, PPL should be assessed like all other like policies – in terms of equity and efficiency.

    3. We need to change the incentive arrangements away from poor, unprepared mothers having babies for the money, to established, employed, middle class women being able to have babies who are currently avoiding it, or avoiding work, due to the difficulty of moving in between the two

    Abbott’s PPL over-pays mothers that do not need assistance and does nothing for those women (in your words) “who are currently…avoiding work, due to the difficulty of moving in between work and having children”. It is a policy that misses 30-35% of its target population on purely arbitrary grounds and, in doing so, accentuates the existing inequalities in the labour market status of women.

    4. PPL will enable increased breastfeeding rates to 6 months (WHO recommendations) or at least to 4 months (the minimum age which everyone in the health sphere recommends. There is some debate about when to wean, whether 4 months or 6 months, based on iron deficiency rates if you exclusively breastfeed too long, and potential allergy associations (although this is still unclear, so we don’t know when to introduce potential allergens).

    This is to confuse a desirable outcome with the means supposedly intended to achieve it. If this is the hoped-for result, why are so many mothers going to be excluded from assistance?

    5. The PPL will increase workforce participation which increases productivity, tax revenues, decreases welfare payments and increases the super-pool, hence savings and is fantastic for women and their relationship with the workforce.

    There is no evidence that PPL will alter workforce participation. It may reduce it. Far from decreasing welfare payments, because it is in itself a welfare payment, PPL will increase the welfare bill without any corresponding needs-testing.

    There is no evidence it will increase savings. In fact, PPL is more to likely to shift savings from the low-paid via the tax system to the best-paid households. It is a regressively redistributive mechanism.

    Because PPL will be funded by taxing selected businesses it will be more likely to harm business investment and productivity than increase it.

    No economic case has been made out for PPL.

  120. kezza2

    [Bushfire Bill
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 7:17 pm | PERMALINK
    If it’s a workplace entitlement then it should be paid by the EMPLOYER, asall other workplace entitlements are.]

    Quite so.

    That’s why the argument that PPL is a workplace entitlement doesn’t float. Sinks like the bullshit stone it is.

  121. Bushfire Bill

    Talk about chutzpah!

    Joe Hockey hasn’t even gone through his first Budget yet and he’s already lecturing the G20 on their allegedly shabby economic performance.

    It is “unacceptable” says Joe.

    Who the f*ck does this bloke think he is?

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/13/joe-hockey-lambasts-slow-economic-growth-by-g20-states

  122. Jackol

    The PPL for high wage earners is not a productivity or participation measure. As briefly says it is a fertility measure – make it more attractive for “women of calibre” to take time out to have a baby. The baby bonus all over again, but this time targeted at the rich.

    We don’t need more babies.

  123. bemused

    daretotread@2048

    Bemused

    Everything is NOT Mod Lib
    I am just about certain.
    Mod Lib was a reasonable sort of a person and NEVER nasty

    Everything is a point scorer and often quite mean. I do NOT think they are the same (they may be related). Mod lib was a female Dr I think.

    Everything seems more male

    Possibly Modlib posts occasionally ie when discussing medical matters (these often make sense)

    Everything are you the hubby, son , brother daughter of mod lib or are you both from Menzies House.

    You are taken in by her.

    After Tone won his great victory she became infatuated at him, throwing her nickers at him like a teeny bopper at a Rock concert.

  124. frednk

    Now here is something the government should encourage; for the good of the nation:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/how-sex-affects-intelligence-and-vice-versa/282889/

  125. Yesiree Bob

    As long as the tax-payer is funding it, PPL is welfare and not an entitlement.
    After all, the age of Entitlement is over.

  126. Edwina StJohn

    Well actually we do jackol.

  127. Leroy Lynch

    There is a Nielsen tonight, this article on a supplementary question has gone online early.

    http://www.watoday.com.au/breaking-news-national/race-hate-voters-tell-brandis-to-back-off-20140413-zqubv.html

    [Race hate: voters tell Brandis to back off
    April 13, 2014 – 4:58PM
    Mark Kenny, Chief Political Correspondent

    Voters have sent an unambiguous message to Tony Abbott and his Attorney General George Brandis: leave the race hate laws alone.

    The latest Fairfax-Nielsen poll specifically asked voters if they believe it should it be lawful or unlawful to “offend, insult or humiliate” somebody based on their race.

    The answer was a statistically conclusive 88 per cent – or nine out of 10 – in favour of the status quo – that is, that it should remain unlawful to discriminate.]

  128. ruawake

    Looks like there is a Neilsen brewing.

    [#Nielsen Poll Should people have the right to be bigots: Yes 34 No 59 #auspol]

  129. Yesiree Bob

    Am I the only one who finds the term “women of calibre” offensive ?

  130. frednk

    I’d put it slightly differently; while the press ws sneering at Gillard:

    https://twitter.com/geeksrulz/status/455190316325150720/photo/1

  131. frednk

    [
    Yesiree Bob
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who finds the term “women of calibre” offensive ?
    ]
    No; but claiming their calibre is measured by their income is.

  132. Centre

    Although I strongly oppose Abbott’s PPL, I do have sympathy for Sarah Murdoch if she happens to have a baby.

    We wouldn’t like to see her go hungry and needing to find a real job.

  133. frednk

    Contessa JenRed ‏@JustJen64 6h

    #AUSPOL @JoeHockey & @TonyAbbottMHR HAVE A FUCKING NERVE attacking aged pensioners while planing $75k payments to wealthy mums.

  134. New2This

    Poll bludger the land of the bellyache…

  135. frednk

    Benjamin Harrison was not a supporter of Liberal policy.

    https://twitter.com/shane25873/status/455177738958016512/photo/1

  136. Yesiree Bob

    frednk@2107


    Yesiree Bob
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Am I the only one who finds the term “women of calibre” offensive ?


    No; but claiming their calibre is measured by their income is.

    Indeed, if you are on a middle to low income, RAbbott doesn’t want to know you.

  137. davidwh

    N2T naughty but nice 🙂

  138. Centre

    Do you remember Steve Fielding stripping naked at a rally in Melbourne after Rudd won the 2007 election?

    Fielding was protesting that Rudd should increase the aged pension. In the protest Fielding was joined by many supposedly aged pensioners insisting that Rudd raise the aged pension.

    The fact that Howard did nothing in the 11 years prior, Rudd had just won an election and had every intention of helping aged pensioners made no difference to the protesters.

    FIELDING WHERE ARE YOU!!!

    Keep your clothes on this time for eff sakes 😆 dropkick!

  139. frednk

    [
    ABC Q&A ‏@QandA 7h

    Palmer says his party won’t support the mining tax repeal or paid parental leave scheme in its current form #QandA http://ab.co/1nb0YUt
    ]
    Ummm; perhaps he can do the maths.

  140. Centre

    Palmer knows it’s only the fair dinkum miners that pay it.

    Palmer is even punier than the Greens compared to the real miners who pay the MRRT.

  141. ruawake

    Centre

    I assume the gramps and grans in undies, eating PAL, will emerge after Hockey’s May budget?

    I wonder if Joe really wants to piss off the Liberal voting base, the over 60s and those who think like them?

  142. David M

    I work in an industry that has a high female ratio and had PPL added to the employment conditions a few years ago

    The major impact of the PPL is that parents are taking more time away from work as they are provided with an additional 14 weeks payment. The purpose of the PPL was to allow parents more time with their babies, which is great. The longer absences has reduced our productivity.

  143. Centre

    No they won’t rua.

    The protest was a stunt to take some credit off Rudd/Labor for doing something that might be popular.

    If they do, bring out the PAL but keep the clothes on for heaven’s sake 😆

  144. briefly

    [2115
    frednk

    ABC Q&A ‏@QandA 7h

    Palmer says his party won’t support the mining tax repeal or paid parental leave scheme in its current form #QandA http://ab.co/1nb0YUt

    Ummm; perhaps he can do the maths.]

    I doubt that Palmer’s businesses generate much in the way of a liability for MRRT at this point. He is also not likely to want to pay a tax surcharge to fund PPL, in itself a divisive and counter-productive fertility policy with regressive income distribution consequences.

  145. ruawake

    [I doubt that Palmer’s businesses generate much in the way of a liability for MRRT at this point.]

    I think Palmer has mined next to nothing, except gullible voters.

  146. briefly

    2121….quite so rua…and a fair number of investors too.

  147. Centre

    True rua.

    Palmer – much bigger mouth than pocket 😉

  148. Centre

    What about this New2This?

    Abbott doing good job, PPL great policy, PBers give him belly ache?

    He even makes Joe Conomics sound as if he knows what he’s talking about!

  149. New2This

    Bit touchy Centre…

  150. Centre

    New2This

    What about Hockey lecturing people that actually know something about economics with three word slogans?

    What an embarrassment!

  151. Everything

    ruawake:

    You still haven’t answered…..is moving the retirement age to 70 years a good idea or not?

  152. ruawake

    Hockey has made a powerful argument for increasing the superannuation guarantee levy, I doubt he realises it yet. Every issue he raises re pensions will be “cured” with a 17.5% levy.

    The Govt will save billions at 20%. Shame the Libs are ideologically opposed to user pays pensions.

  153. Everything

    [GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes 48m
    #Nielsen Poll Should it be lawful to offend, insult or humiliate someone based on race: No 88 #auspol]

    I would have answered “no” to this question as well. However, what should have been asked is:

    “Should it be unlawful to offend someone, where the individual determines whether or not the statement was offensive”

    My answer would be “no”

  154. Centre

    Everything

    It depends on the individual.

    Many people at 70 are not fit enough or healthy enough to be productive in the workforce.

    Sure, if somebody is active and productive enough at 70 to work and wants to work – by all means go for it.

    But to push people to work until they drop is disgraceful.

    Unemployment benefits are obviously less than the Aged Pension.

    And you obviously support it – SHAME!

  155. silmaj

    2128
    Who would pay for the nearly doubling of the levy?

  156. ruawake

    Has Hockey released his G20 homework on how he will increase GDP by 2% over normal yet? Or is he just slagging others who have followed his lead?

  157. briefly

    [2129
    Everything

    GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes 48m
    #Nielsen Poll Should it be lawful to offend, insult or humiliate someone based on race: No 88 #auspol

    I would have answered “no” to this question as well. However, what should have been asked is:

    “Should it be unlawful to offend someone, where the individual determines whether or not the statement was offensive”

    My answer would be “no”]

    In this case, your answer would be consistent with the existing law.

  158. Everything

    [Centre
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 8:17 pm | PERMALINK
    Everything

    It depends on the individual.

    Many people at 70 are not fit enough or healthy enough to be productive in the workforce.]

    This applies at 65, 60 and even 55years as well.

  159. ruawake

    [Who would pay for the nearly doubling of the levy?]

    The old age pension would not need to be paid. So a Govt proportion, then as Keating did pay rises traded off for super.

    Cost to taxpayer, next to nothing. Cost to business nothing.

  160. AussieAchmed

    I think Hockey and Abbott have a nerve talking about cutting pensions, increasing the pension age, cutting disability, stopping payments to orphans while supporting the theft of taxpayer money through FBT rorts, claiming the end to the Age of Entitlement while paying Cadbury $16million, mining company subsidies $4billion and Manly RL club $10 million.

  161. daretotread

    Everything

    If you had asked me just 12 months ago I would probably arrogantly and pompously say that “I will work to 70 etc”

    However in the last year, of my 60s acquaintances I have encountered four cancers, two heart attacks, one stroke, two autoimmune, one parkinsons, macular degeneration, motor neurone. Now yes I am starting to face the
    reality of impending death. Somehow working till I am 70 just does not seem quite the ideal.

  162. AussieAchmed

    In May 2013 Palmer had a $6.2 million mining tax bill he refused to pay….

  163. frednk

    [
    briefly
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    ….

    “Should it be unlawful to offend someone, where the individual determines whether or not the statement was offensive”

    In this case, your answer would be consistent with the existing law.
    ]
    The judge decides; who other than the offended should bring the case; a flying pink fairy?

  164. Centre

    Mod Lib

    The older you get, the less likely you will be fit enough, healthy enough and productive enough to work.

    It’s called keeping it real 😉

    You just want them off the aged pension and on to unemployment benefits don’t you – what a kind guy 😆

  165. ruawake

    [In May 2013 Palmer had a $6.2 million mining tax bill he refused to pay….]

    Wasn’t that Carbon Tax?

  166. frednk

    [
    AussieAchmed
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

    In May 2013 Palmer had a $6.2 million mining tax bill he refused to pay….
    ]

    He has paid it.

  167. briefly

    Re 2129/Everything

    Anyone interested in this matter can read the judgment:

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/FCA/2011/1103.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=andrew%20bolt

    At paragraphs 19-20, the Judge makes clear that an objective standard is to be applied in determining whether expressions may be found to be offensive, insulting or humiliating, and elaborates on the what the test is and how it is to be interpreted.

  168. silmaj

    2135
    That would work if pay rises were capped, but I couldn’t see that happening. To my knowledge govt has never assisted in paying business superannuation expenses. With the economy now becoming more global loading up tax, super and wage increases on Aus business will end up with only a negative result.

  169. AussieAchmed

    So with the plan to repeal the MRRT will the Liberals also repeal the PRRT?

  170. frednk

    Good point; pity the Liberals have messed with the forces so badly that it can be made.

    https://twitter.com/geeksrulz/status/455282409768898560/photo/1

  171. Thomas. Paine.

    retirement age – should be 110+ or for as long as anybody wants and somebody is willing to employ them.

    Pension age….age when pension can be accessed for those that do not have the ability to fund themselves, and asset/means tested, and mentally and physically capable….can be extended to 70 gradually.

    Retirement age, access to self funded pension should remain at 55 since that as against the pension age 67-70 gives greater incentive for people to aim for self funded retirement. Also self funded retirees will continue to input to the economy from their own accrued resources.

    However increasing the access to self funded superannuation to 70 would be a disincentive.

    I’m a self funded retiree at 55. Actually I have rolled all my superannuation over, live off my wife’s wage and I work part time at 3 days a week and wont need to access the funds for many years yet. We should be entirely self funded for all our lives…and something we have planned more than 20 years ago.

  172. briefly

    [2146
    AussieAchmed

    So with the plan to repeal the MRRT will the Liberals also repeal the PRRT?]

    Those parts of the MRRT relating to iron ore and coal are to be repealed, but the part relating to coal seam gas will not.

    The question of resource taxation, royalties, State finance and inter-state fiscal relations should be re-visited. Even the LNP might be willing to do this if it were considered alongside the GST. Personally, I think if resource profits tax were treated as a permanent source of State income, to be shared between the States in the same way as GST (and, indirectly, royalty income) is now apportioned, then the politics of resource taxation could easily be changed.

    The States need more revenue and they need more certainty. We can increase state revenues without raising the GST if resource taxation is pitched wisely.

  173. sprocket_

    the truth of the matter is the Abbott and his cohort would be happy to get only 1 piece of legislation through the Parliament, ie the Budget.

    The rest they would be happy to be held by the Senate, so they can blame them for the downward spiral in living standards.

    The Treasury Benches are more than enough to prosecute the culture wars, and reward the rent seeking backers.

    PPL? nobody cares, not even Abbott who dreamt this up in conversation with his daughters

  174. AussieAchmed

    After seeing how WA has been treated in the GST amount of share it gets being constantly downwards, it will be a hard sell to convince the state that it should also share the revenue from mining etc

  175. sprocket_

    I like this quote from Hansard. Misleading the Parliament is grounds for censure, and if proven for a minister, standing down.

    http://twitpic.com/e116cr

  176. deblonay

    The major US Journal “Counterpunch” looks at Bob Carr’s attack on Gillard and the Jewish Lobby
    ___________________________
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/11/the-zionist-lobby-under-fire-in-oz/

  177. frednk

    [
    AussieAchmed
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    After seeing how WA has been treated in the GST amount of share it gets being constantly downwards, it will be a hard sell to convince the state that it should also share the revenue from mining etc
    ]
    WA; the eastern states prop them up for decades; they have a mining boom and they start whinging because they have to pay a bit back.

  178. AussieAchmed

    I like this quote from Hansard. Misleading the Parliament is grounds for censure, and if proven for a minister, standing down.

    Wouldn’t it be good if we had an ethical and moral media that would use the same language about Abbott as they did with Gillard.

  179. Just Me

    [As William Blum said, trickle down economics is:

    the principle that the poor, who must subsist on table scraps dropped by the rich, can best be served by giving the rich bigger meals.]

    AKA, the ‘golden shower’ theory of economics.

  180. briefly

    I am in the highly regrettable position of having almost no super and only the most modest of incomes. As a consequence of various crimes and acts of greed committed against me and my then-family, I lost nearly all my assets, including my share of my house and savings and nearly all my possessions.

    This coincided with a quite protracted period of illness from which I’ve only recently recovered. This illness really affected my ability to bring in much of an income, so now I have to face the prospect of working for as long as I possibly can – 70 will not be long enough – knowing my chances of accumulating any significant savings are, realistically, really very poor.

    So for me, the question of when I might retire is almost ridiculous. I will have to work until I am no longer fit to do so.

  181. sprocket_

    Does the Professor have some inside info?

    [Clive Palmer ‏@CliveFPalmer 12s
    @theqldpremier planning early election. Spending plenty of taxpayer money on advertising. #qldpol]

  182. deblonay

    Brace Yourself
    ____________
    Dr Marc Faber,”Dr Doom” to US investors…who predicted some earlier crashes.. says we are on the verge of a bigger US crash than that of 2008,ehich will trigger an even bigger Recession next year

  183. sprocket_

    Clive Palmer is in fine form tonight – giving Newman some LNP love

    [Clive Palmer ‏@CliveFPalmer 2m
    @theqldpremier is lying about the state’s debt. He wants to sell schools and hospitals to his mates. #qldpol]

  184. silmaj

    2159
    He predicts doom every year. I guess one year he will get it right.

  185. sprocket_

    [GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes 1m
    #Nielsen Poll Primary Votes: L/NP 40 (-4) ALP 34 (-1) GRN 17 (+5) #auspol]

  186. Sir sustainable future

    [2097
    Bushfire Bill
    Posted Sunday, April 13, 2014 at 7:24 pm | PERMALINK
    Talk about chutzpah!

    Joe Hockey hasn’t even gone through his first Budget yet and he’s already lecturing the G20 on their allegedly shabby economic performance.

    It is “unacceptable” says Joe.

    Who the f*ck does this bloke think he is?

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/13/joe-hockey-lambasts-slow-economic-growth-by-g20-states%5D

    He thinks he is the next PM of Australia. When Abbott implodes within he next 18 months, sloppy will be there. He’ll look competent in comparison.

  187. sprocket_

    [GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes 3m
    #Nielsen Poll 2 Party Preferred: L/NP 48 (-3) ALP 52 (+3) #auspol]

    Last Neilsen was a rogue

  188. bemused

    briefly@2157

    I am in the highly regrettable position of having almost no super and only the most modest of incomes. As a consequence of various crimes and acts of greed committed against me and my then-family, I lost nearly all my assets, including my share of my house and savings and nearly all my possessions.

    This coincided with a quite protracted period of illness from which I’ve only recently recovered. This illness really affected my ability to bring in much of an income, so now I have to face the prospect of working for as long as I possibly can – 70 will not be long enough – knowing my chances of accumulating any significant savings are, realistically, really very poor.

    So for me, the question of when I might retire is almost ridiculous. I will have to work until I am no longer fit to do so.

    Such things happen in the real world, but not in the world of Mad Lib and her ilk.

    Sorry to hear of all your misfortune and hope good things start to happen for you.

  189. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    briefly,
    I am in a similar position to you, due to not being able to access the workforce while caring for a large family while trying to access the university education denied me when I was younger and living in a remote rural location. Then as a mother of five kids, I could not apply more lucrative positions interstate. Then I had to take part time work as I became a carer, at well below my previous salary. I ended up with little super, a medical condition, a house and scratching for funds to maintain it. Over fifty I don’t even bother applying for jobs anymore. I just keep doing the carer respite job a few hours a week.
    I have to retrain myself (I am at uni) so I can self-employ.
    I need to keep working, like you. Some days I just want to lay down and not get up again.

    Then I read sanctimonious libral b’tards pontificating about the social wage as if it is some disease they want to eradicate. To them people like me are just failures who should line up to be turned into fertilizer for their golf-courses.

  190. zoidlord

    Can LNP get lower than 40 primary?

    GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes 27m

    #Nielsen Poll Primary Votes: L/NP 40 (-4) ALP 34 (-1) GRN 17 (+5) #auspol

  191. dave

    AussieAchmed@2151

    After seeing how WA has been treated in the GST amount of share it gets being constantly downwards, it will be a hard sell to convince the state that it should also share the revenue from mining etc

    On that basis – there would also be little point of increasing the GST – as it would go elsewhere?

    Sandgropers decide ? But they already did again, recently.

  192. imacca

    [ where the individual determines whether or not the statement was offensive ]

    Very stupid even for you Mod, and its not even a comment related to the NBN where you have form for plumbing the depths of kool aid sucking idiocy.

    At the moment its the court who determines if the statement was offensive, not the individual who claims of be offended. Unless you’d like to have a situation where individuals make a determination at law that we all should abide by? Jeez, we’d all have to be named Brandis for that wouldn’t we?? 🙂

  193. imacca

    [ This applies at 65, 60 and even 55years as well. ]

    Luverly. So they can go on the DSP rather than the pension then.

    Of course when they get booted off that (Libs hate bludgers after all) they can divest themselves of any assets accumulated (savings, house, car. belongings……) while they were working in order to support themselves at poverty level until they qualify for a pension at 70. Good time to be a cashed up spiv who can buy up distressed assets for a song wot??

    And why not raise the GST as well so they can get a greater proportion of what these people have to spend to survive into the tax take where it is available for corporate welfare??

    I think that people are going to start to twig that the Fibs are REALLY into wealth redistribution.

    Hockey really has not thought this through, and is setting himself up to be looking even more clownish than normal. But in a Chucky kind of way….

  194. dave

    silmaj@2161

    2159
    He predicts doom every year. I guess one year he will get it right.

    Yes Indeed.

    The only thing is the “Sell in May and go away” thing is strongest in the second year of the US Presidential Cycle – ie this year.

    Doesn’t mean it will necessarily crash or go down etc – we will have to see – but the US markets have had a good run since 2009, due largely to QE and ultra low interest rates.

    US tech stocks are currently down 8% from early March highs and may well bounce in the coming week – but by how much and for how long?

    Mainly it means, set sensible stop losses and exit at that level if hit.

    If the US tech stocks continue their decline it needs to be watched carefully as it is the speculative end of the market which rolls over first – some of the big tech name have been declining for months.

    Locally, market leadership has been narrowing for many months and is centered on high yielding, large cap stocks – particularly the Banks – they are the ones to watch for a local local decline. Local small cap stock are already broadly in decline.

    Set stops and act on them if needed.

  195. mexicanbeemer

    On the PPL for all the talk that its needed around here in the land of BMW’s and Mercs the past few years have seen something of a baby boom, thus i question if its even needed to encourage women to have a bubs.

    Access to child care and return to employment opportunities appear to be the big talking point around here.

    Not the need for a hand-out from Tone & co